| IVOD_ID |
17095 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17095 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-03 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-03T13:30:10+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-03T16:16:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:45:50 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea66a919a0b9b1b1fbfa6a7f20641e0bfdb4456b5c46cbb78c8b5e4a40cb8165295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-03T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會「國籍法」修法公聽會 |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:10 - 16:16:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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我們今天的國際法修法公聽會12月13、13現在我們開會公職人員負有國家中產的義務在世界各國對於規劃取得國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1817.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1825.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
跟尊崇國籍的擔任公職人員的規範是如何整個 我覺得對一個國家的忠誠看得出來嗎 覺得尊崇國籍跟擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1836.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1848.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
公職相關的區委是不是在台灣中華民國有適合啦訂定相關的議題我們是不是特別基本公聽會聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1852.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1867.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
整個專家合作的意見我們來詳細記錄各位的告誡並列入立法院公報紀錄中作為國際法修法討論時的參考首先我們先來介紹我們的專家和合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1879.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1899.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們第一位我們王助理教授中央警察大學國警警察學系謝謝第二位宋理事台灣安保協會理事我們廖律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1911.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1935.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們擔任局長 當立法院法治局局長我們吳教授 雲林科科技大學科技法律研究所我們擔任律師 經史法律事務所陳律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1937.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1957.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們教授國立台灣大學政治學系我們來介紹我們今天內市的官員我們內政部吳常務次長我們副政司陳司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1968.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1989.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們民政司代專門委員我們大陸委員會兩副主任委員法政處周處長中央委員會協務處王處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1995.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2000.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
外交部條約法律師黃專門委員我們程序部去審視我們副司長法規師我們的蕭專門委員我們法務部謝參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2027.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2037.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
今天在工廠會我們以程序如下先請補費簡單報告之後我們再請核心專家發現以我們簽署出席的前後順序每一個發現為百分之一本議委員會發現請到主席台登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2059.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2067.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
兩個專家合作發現後我們安排了一個委員會見每個委員會見時間約五分鐘最後我們再跟議會的機關代表回應和說明發現事情有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2081.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2089.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
一路停火倒數到一分鐘的時候 它會按鈴一聲快點時間結束的時候 它會按鈴兩聲現在我們這裡報告我們的內政部吳常務次長報告其他的單位報告請自行參與及刊登公報請吳次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2112.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2135.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席各位委員女士各位先生還有各位學者大家好首先感謝各位委員對於國籍議題的關心跟支持並表達最大的謝神那今天貴文會召開國籍法的修法公聽會本部應邀列席報告那有關今日公聽會所列的討論提綱請將本部的意見依序說明如下也敬請各位委員來指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2137.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2144.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
公職人員負有國家忠誠義務世界各國對於規劃取得國籍或雙重國籍者擔任其公職人員之規範為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2146.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2171.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
公職人員代表國家履行的公共任務與國家之間很處於特別緊密的忠誠與信任關係此為維繫國家安全與運作之基時世界各國對於雙重國籍或規劃者擔任公職之規範部分國家採取嚴格單一國家制如印尼、馬來西亞等國家僅限於具備該國籍者得擔任公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2173.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2192.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那另有部分國家則採取對機敏植物設限制度如美國針對國家安全情報的職位原為雙重國籍事後放棄他國國籍者亦可能因為通過安全調查而無法擔任機敏性質之公職澳洲憲法更明文禁止雙重國籍者擔任國會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2194.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2212.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
各國就其國家利益跟憲政體制的標準及維護國家與公務人員間的忠誠信任關係考量定有任公職者之資格及忠誠度之審查標準是以公職人員賦有對國家之忠誠義務此為普世認同之價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2213.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2238.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我國國籍法在89年2月9號增訂第20條的規定那將原國籍法施行條例有關雙重國籍擔任公職之解除及免除規定納入明文禁止具有雙重國籍之國民擔任公職並明確規範民選公職人員解除公職之權責機關就其立法意旨細緻制度上來避免忠誠義務衝突之發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2241.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2265.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我賦予九十年六月二十號修正新增兼具外國國籍者擬任公職時應於就職前辦理放棄國籍並在一年內完成上司國籍程序該次修正是應放棄外國國籍程序需時故原給予一年之緩衝時間雙重國籍之國人擬任公職必須於就道任前辦理放棄外國國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2267.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2280.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
仔細針對全國國民之一致要求無論為原生我國籍者或規劃取得我國身份之新住民皆須於擔任公職前放棄他國國籍以表達對我國唯一之效忠 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2282.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2297.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
民選公職具有民意代表性及高度政治性並享有一定之決策權利為國家權利與人民意志的直接體現必須積極考量國家整體利益並採取一切有利於國家之行為與決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2299.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2321.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
具雙重國籍者對其所兼具國籍身份之國家亦另附有忠誠義務倘容許雙重國籍擔任民選公職將產生雙重效忠所致的利益衝突國籍法第20條的規定就是從制度上來排除發生忠誠義務衝突之預防性做法旨在維護我國國家利益二 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2324.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2351.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
現行具外國國籍者、規劃者或雙重國籍者擔任公職相關規定是否妥適國籍法第20條規定國民兼具外國國籍者預認公職應於就到職前辦理放棄外國國籍是為確保國民擔任公職之國民忠誠義務原預認公職者凡具有我國國籍以外之國籍均應放棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2352.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2369.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
按司法院釋制第768號解釋理由國籍法第20條規定限制兼具外國國籍者擔任公務人員有維護國家與公務人員兼之忠誠與信任關係之考量目的尋屬正當且其手段與目的之達成具有 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2371.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2392.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
合理的關聯民選公職人員之決定具有不同程度的法律效力跟社會影響力其是否做出唯一有利於我國之決定舒適商榷不應以廣納人才為由加以開放令我國國籍法要求規劃者應放棄原有國籍法治上完成後 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2393.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2422.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
而對國家的單一效忠程序取等擔任民選公職應無疑議自兼具雙重國籍者來避免雙重效忠產生之利益衝突亦不宜開放此等身份之人擔任民選公職三中國大陸人民取得台灣人民身份後任公職的思考中共政權多年來對台進行文攻武嚇統戰滲透以嚴重危害我國主權與安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2423.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2448.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
屬境外敵對勢力行政院秘書長112年5月24號函中國大陸人民不具我國國籍非屬我國國民又依1930年4月12號海牙簽訂之關於國籍法衝突的若干問題公約中宣示國籍必有原則則取等取得台灣人民身份前當具有中國大陸之國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2450.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2478.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
取等取得台灣人民身份後身份故以轉化為我國國民違依上開公約規定是否具有某一特定國家國籍的問題應依照該國的法律予以斷定凡具有兩個以上國籍的人得被他所具有國籍的每一個國家視為各該國家的國民則取等如未放棄中國大陸國籍則能具有其國籍按 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2479.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2499.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
兩岸條例第一條後段有明定本條例未規定者適用其他有關法令之規定原中國大陸人民身份轉化後如意參選公職須符合兩岸條例第21條在台涉及滿十年之規定當選後就到職前亦與一般國人相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2501.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2523.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
需符合國籍法第20條禁止具有雙重國籍者擔任我國公職資格規定取等擔任民選公職躺就職後能具中國國籍將同時附有向我國及中共效忠的義務自身雙重效忠的情形顯與國籍法所規定欲規範公職人員忠誠義務有嚴重衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2526.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2550.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
原中國大陸人民在未放棄該國國籍前比如 據《中國國家安全法》《國家情報法》《反間諜法》等法律附有配合該國情報單位要求提供情報的義務倘原中國大陸人民在台擔任民選公職則同時擁有中華民國國籍和該國國籍即會因此而面臨法律義務上之衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2551.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2579.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那亦可能也因擔任我國民選公職而遭中共政權要求提供相關線索 證據來嚴重影響國家安全原國際法20條的規定除維護我國國家利益之外亦保護取等擔任民選公職可能面臨之矛盾及風險取得我國民身份之新住民除有法律特別規定外亦與國人同享權利保障亦承擔相同的法律義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2581.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2608.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
要求原中國大陸人民遵守相同規範並非歧視謹記確保每位公職人員都只忠誠於一個國家避免利益衝突和效忠的矛盾堂只為原中國大陸人民修法免除其單一忠誠責任除徒增我國社會對來自中國大陸之新住民忠誠疑慮亦使原中國大陸之民選公職人員蒙受有 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2609.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2636.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
特殊待遇之標籤此舉對於台灣社會之和諧進步並無注意綜上所述為堅守民選公職人員肩負國家忠誠義務之基本原則及維護國家利益能應維持現行雙重國籍不得擔任公職做法自制度上排除發生忠誠義務衝突之情形以上說明敬請各位委員及各位專家學者指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2639.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2653.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝 感謝吳長治的報告剛才陳副教授國立成功大學法律學系歡迎你來現在請專家下車發現請第一位吳教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2666.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2668.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
雲林科技大學感謝主席、各位專家、各位政府、各位記者我直接用國語說 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2688.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2702.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我有提供這個書面的資料所以也請大家可以看到吳威智所提供的書面資料我是雲林科技大學科技法律研究所教授也是中華人權協會的副理事長我所提供的資料裡面第一個部分我就是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2703.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2709.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那個海牙國際法公約是不是接受或者是容忍雙重國籍的存在我們看到1930年的國際公約雖然是主張國際單一原則但是呢許多國家實質上是有這個容忍雙重國籍的存在而且這種容忍雙重國籍的存在是以規劃取得公民的身份為主所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2730.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2733.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
如果以雙重國籍在我們國家並沒有違反國際的海牙公約那麼第二個我們從公民與政治權利國際公約來看看公民權是不是應該擁有這樣的一個權利我們看到聯合國在公民政治權利國際公約的第25條裡面特別規定凡屬公民注意是公民權喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2754.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2770.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
無分任何的身份不受無理的限制均應有他的權利跟機會同時他在該條裡面有規定有三種權利各位第一個就是直接或經由自由選舉的代表參與正式 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2771.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2773.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
第二個權利是實施選舉投票跟被選舉權第三個以一般平等的條件符本國之公職所以事實上我們國家在民國98年的時候已經訂立了國際人權兩公約實行法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2790.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2803.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
已經把這個國際公約放到我們國內作為它的一個法律所以公民權尤其是參政的公民權是不該被剝奪的而且它只要是公民任何人都該保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2803.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2828.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那麼我們看到司法院4日329號的解釋跟最高行政法院103年的決議它同時有規定這個是有公民權的保障我們政府要實施這個公約那另外因此我認為無論是今天在講要修改國際法或者修改兩岸人民關係條例其實它都在保障公民權 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2830.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2834.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那麼第三個我們從第三個部分我們從兩岸人民關係條例來看它的法制那它的法制從憲法徵修條文已經規定了他說可以訂立特別法來規範所以事實上在憲法裡面就把兩岸人民關係條例定為特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2848.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2854.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
而這個特別法就代表了如果中國大陸人民歸屬來台的時候那麼他就是用這個特別法來做規範所以只要沒有修憲 沒有修改這個法律他仍然還是特別法因此這個特別法把如何參選 如何來從事公職都已經完整的規範了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2871.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2874.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以當然有幾點要注意呢第一點我就提出來那是不是曾經有改過這個憲法或改過法律嗎那都沒有啊那都沒有的情況當中你只能要保障他這個權利你只能合理的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2888.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2892.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
可是合理的限制不能限制到沒有這個權利如果沒有這個權利就是違憲違法了第二個我們看到條例裡面第21條也規範的陸配了參政權也就是說涉及滿10年他就有參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2904.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2918.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那麼這是憲法比例原則的考量也是歸於穩定的考量事實上公民權確實可以這樣的考量但是你只能把它嚴謹的縮小你不可以沒有啊沒有就是違憲啊接下來我們從國籍法來看國籍法我有分析八點國籍法我們在2016年國籍法就修正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2929.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2931.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個國際法的修正已經接納了雙重國旗甚至雙重國旗可以從公職了所以因此呢我們看著這個是一個全球化的一個國際的社會所以在它的第九條國際法第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2947.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2952.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就允許了這個雙重國籍在他的20條裡面就涉及了公職的相關的規範那麼我們就來看公職的相關規範國籍法第20條告訴你到職一年內要取得相關的證明文件不然就會喪失各位從這裡面你會看得出來原則上我就是接納了雙重國籍的公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2972.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2977.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那麼再重演來規定但是這個原則你不能丟掉原則是可以的這個必須要說因此我們現在想要立法院修法來補足說有一些完全給人家剝奪的部分是不是應該在憲法公民權的保障給人家所以這個修法是應該是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2996.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3003.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
第二個我們也看到了20條第一項說以擔任者還可以由主管機關的核准來不再只限雖然目前沒有規範陸配的問題但是並不代表說立法院就沒有這個權利來把陸配規範在裡面所以事實上可以修法來使得內政部也作為主管允許的核准機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3022.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3027.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
當然我認為也不用內政部啦 為什麼因為你看到二十條第一項的第五款他告訴你還有其他法律另有規定者哇 那等於告訴你其實不用修第一款啦因為為什麼 因為他第五款已經把保留了兩岸人民關係條例的陸配公民參政權放在裡面啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3047.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3051.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那麼所以從第四條可以看得出來他的第四項其實是正面肯定的先給你有這樣的一個公職服務權然後再來討論如何來加嚴那麼因此第五項我的文章裡面的第五項可以看得出來這是一個非常特殊的立法技術在106年的時候他說在20條第四項裡面後段加入但其他法律令有規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3076.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3094.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
重啟規定所以這個基本上就是跟他的第1項第5款相互呼應嘛為什麼因為國際法就尊重兩岸人民關係條例為特別法國際法本身就變成了普通法因此他在第20條第1項的第1款第5款以及後面的第4項給了這樣的一個彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3103.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3105.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以我認為目前我認為立法院做成決議意見也好修法意見也好都應該保障公民的參政權甚至我認為這十年來法律是一致性的憲法兩岸人民關係條例國際法都沒有三不法律都沒有再修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3124.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3126.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
同樣一個執政的政府這十年來怎麼會一夕之間做這麼大的轉變怎麼會做這麼公民的這麼大的轉變難道陸配民意代表已經違反了很多法律了嗎那到底案例在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3140.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3147.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以我認為最好的方法還是比照例如總統已經講說敵對狀態了那麼我們就允許好像類似起義來歸的反共意識一樣我們其實就我們國家政府片面的允許然後使得他的權力能夠保障公民的參政權這是我個人的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3168.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3192.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝我們在這裡請王助理教授中央檢察大學主席在座各位委員然後各位機關長官跟代表然後與會的各位學者參加我是警大助理教授主要國際系主席王志勝 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3193.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3218.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
雖然我平常在節目上不是用這個名字啦不過正式場合我們還是用警大的名義那我的專業在警大因為國境系我們主要就是兩條例移民法國籍法這些相關的東西那以下就今天這個委員會所提要求的這個幾個題目來做相關的說明第一公職人員富有國家忠誠義務世界各國對於規劃取得國籍或雙重國籍的擔任這個公職人的規範為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3220.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3247.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
根據我們相關的研究跟中證後面幾位先進也會提到剛才看到像這個陳局長相關的資料也都有提到不過我們基本要分成兩種類型第一種類型我把它叫做全面平等模式也就是不管你是規劃的你是有雙重國籍的還是原生國籍的都可以享有這個同等的公民權那這種國家基本上最著名的幾個國家大概包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3249.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3271.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
英國、法國、紐西蘭等等這些國家然後這些國家有共同的特色包括還有加拿大等等這些國家有共同的特色還有它特殊的歷史因素以當時比較強調整個移民融合的一個過程可發現都是以歐陸國家為主但是另外一種我這邊會跟大家做比較多介紹的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3272.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3300.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
是所謂的嚴格單一忠誠模式的這樣子的一個這樣子的一個國家那這種國家大概更強調對於國家對於公民對國家的排他性忠誠他通常不承認雙重國籍或者是說他即便接受公民有雙重國籍但是並不接受有雙重國籍的公民來進行參政這些國家可以跟各位做簡單的介紹那這個就發現他其實有一個共同的特色第一個韓國 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3302.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3330.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
韓國基本上對於雙重國籍是非常非常的審慎的那甚至在公職的部分不管是憲法公職選罷法等等之類的都要求他的相關的總統國會議員都必須存韓國籍不能有其他國家國籍新加坡新加坡是也直接嚴禁雙重國籍他要求新加坡的民眾他21歲如果有雙重的話必須選擇單一國籍那既然選擇單一國籍他後面的參政也很清楚就是只有一個國籍只有存新加坡的人才能夠擔任公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3331.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3351.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
然後再來以色列以色列大概他鼓勵全球的猶太人回歸到以色列所以他其實在雙重國籍上面本來是沒有做太多的限制的但是對參政是有嚴格的限制的按照這個以色列的基本法的部分國會議員在就職的時候不得保有留外國國籍等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3352.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3378.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
還有我們一些熟悉的北歐以及波羅的海國家包括挪威 芬蘭等等國家這幾年雖然開始慢慢承認雙重國籍譬如說這個芬蘭是2003年開始承認雙重國籍可是對於擔任公職或雙重國籍者要擔任公職或君職是有嚴格的規範的譬如說芬蘭因為芬蘭一直擔心它的俄羅斯移民當中的一個芬蘭化所造成的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3379.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3403.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那這個波羅的海三小國 愛沙尼亞 拉脫沃亞這些波羅的海國家也是因為有相同的狀況有相當比例的這個俄羅斯的族群那還有當時跟俄羅斯之間的關係所以他對於雙重國籍來擔任公職也是採取禁止的一個態度那剛剛最後有提到像一個澳洲澳洲他是比較特殊的案例 他承認雙重國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3405.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3434.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
但是他对他的宪法是明确禁止双重国籍人士担任联邦的议员那甚至说有要求说如果你这个要担任参中议员必须先放弃这个其他的国籍以上这些我所提到的这个严格单一忠诚模式的国家他有几个共同的特色第一个他的国家的这个size国家的这个基本结构都比较小不管是南韩以色列波地海三小国等等等等第二个 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3434.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3462.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
他都有特殊的歷史源源也就是說他其實有面對到外在的這個敵對的壓力或者是擔心透過這種小國寡民透過其他國家的這種大量的移民可能讓這些人參政公職的時候造成這個國家本身的這個安全或中層產生轉變造成衝擊所以例如新加坡例如以色列例如韓國波羅利亞三角國等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3463.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3479.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這些也都是在世界民主國家評比當中相當親近的國家而這些國家採取的是所謂的單一忠誠模式的這樣子的一個限制不管是規劃 限制雙重國籍或者是沒有放棄原有國籍的人來進行參政 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3481.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3509.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以在這樣的情況之下大家就可以看得到說在這個問題上面對於世界各國對規劃國籍或雙重國籍者擔任公職人員的規範雖然有兩大不同的類型一種看起來像英國、法國這些國家 加拿大這些鼓勵紐西蘭這些鼓勵移民國家當中它的歷史源源是可以讓雙重國籍擔任公職可是跟台灣更接近更相像的南韓、新加坡、以色列 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3510.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3535.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
波爾地亞三小國北歐國家等等這些先進民主國家也都是採取嚴格的單一這個國籍來才進行這個公職的擔任這是從國際比較的角度來看所以這就回到第二個問題也就是第二個問題討論到說現行具有外國國籍者規劃者或雙重國籍擔任公職的相關規範是否妥適那就是我們在討論的國籍法第20條的部分我相信如果依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3535.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3559.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
同樣的比較剛剛提到這些國家的規範的時候就會發現說台灣的國籍法當中我們一般講說是漠視雙重國籍我們並沒有刻意的去排除或者是明文的說你可以有或可以沒有因為是屬人跟屬地主義之間的造成的這樣子的一個模糊空間但是國籍法20條剛剛吳偉智老師也很清楚的強調他其實很清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3560.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3584.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
要求說如果你是有雙重國籍的這個身份的這樣子的人要擔任公職的話必須先放棄或者必須放棄這個國籍那你說現在的現在的相關規範看剛剛我們所提到的這些小型先進民主國家規範是完全一致的那這樣的規範當然我們整體來看是妥適的一個狀況因為這樣會牽扯到國籍化因為牽扯到這個國家的能跟忠誠義務我完全贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3586.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3601.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
應該要用平等權來看待所有這個成為台灣這個國民的相關的公民權但是如果今天只為了這個中國籍的這樣子的人士去做例外的排除的話那請問新住民怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3602.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3624.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
其他的新住民怎麼辦所有的新住民應該是要一致平等的狀況來進行這樣子的一個適用如果你只為了這個陸配去取消或者是在國籍法做排除那請問其他的新住民放棄國籍這情何以堪這個平等權是要一體適用的情況而參政權他基本上本來就不是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3625.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3644.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個他本來就應該是一個可以做因為國家忠誠可以做相當應限制的這樣子的一個基本權利所以這個部分其實也沒有太大的一個問題所以整個來看不論是從國際上的整個先進民主國家的相關的規範或者是現有國籍法對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3646.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3667.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個所有新住民平等的參政權的這個要求乃至於在因為這樣子所以可以讓這個所有的新住民在參政的時候確保他的國家忠誠義務當然包括中配在內我覺得這一系列過程其實是非常非常完整的所以因此國際法並沒有修正的必要 謝謝謝謝 人家歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3683.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3697.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
首先謝謝王美惠召委安排這個非常重要的國際法的修法公聽會那關於呢我看到我們本院的國民黨籍的立委傅坤祺 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3698.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3717.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
他想要修國際法第一條的條文修正通過那我認為如果這個條文真的修正通過了那造成的傷害會非常的大那為什麼任何一個民主國家他對於原生的國民跟境外人士參與民主機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3718.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3742.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
都會有不同的設計那另外就是我們也知道參政權其實是一個光譜非常廣的概念你從投票到被選舉權包含參選到任職事實上是都會有不同的設計那所以呢就是說如果傅昆祺委員想要修正國際法第一條之後造成的傷害我覺得第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3744.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3762.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個它影響了國籍法的核心理念如果我們看一下國籍法它內容有非常的多它針對擔任公職的要求是單一忠誠那如果國籍法被傅坤祺委員這樣一修之後它排除掉大陸地區人民的公職參選及任職資格的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3764.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3781.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
造成的傷害就是那未來我們可能會有跟沈博洋委員一起在外交國防委員會的立委他甚至是有雙重的政治認同那這樣子對我們的一個傷害難道不是非常大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3781.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3802.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為他迫害了國籍法的精神今天國籍法就是中華民國的國籍的國民擔任公職就是單一忠誠那這件國籍法的核心精神裡面就被他破壞了所以一個修法一個條文破壞了國籍法的核心精神我認為是非常的不能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3803.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3818.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
第二點是公平性那這次修法宣稱是要對特定對象的參政權鬆綁那事實上我們來看一下所有的外國移民就是來到台灣他參政都要放棄原國民那台灣人自己也要到滿20歲才有完整的參政權譬如說18歲只有能夠公投的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3825.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3847.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那可是來自大陸地區的人民卻能夠保留中國戶籍 擔任公職可是台灣人卻就你算是翹鼠的都擔任公職都必須要放棄他的雙重國籍那這難道不是在台灣人在我們的國民當中變成是有一種創造一個新的不公平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3848.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3867.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
有人宣稱這是要降低特定族群的參政阻礙我認為這個修法反而是傷害了我們社會內部的信任跟制度的公平所以在此呼籲我們朝野的不分黨派的立委要守護中華民國國民的參政公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3867.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3872.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
最後關於參政權是不是被剝奪被阻礙我想國民黨委員一直聲稱說這個修法是要維護中國及配偶的參政權就像我剛講的參政權是選舉罷免創制覆決選舉權又包含被選舉跟選舉他人 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3888.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3906.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那在两岸人民关系条例中如果我们仔细来看它是一个特别法它是有谈到的一个基本上是参选可是国际法讲的是当选大家都知道参选的人可能只有10%不到对不对王美惠 赵伟非常的知道会当选 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3907.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3930.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所以參選跟當選當選公職又有民選的跟政治任命的是非常不一樣的那既然是中華民國的國民都應該適用這個普通法國籍法怎麼能夠隨意排除呢最後我也要提到一個國安風險跟保障我們自己的國民我們都知道剛剛提到愛沙尼亞拉脫維亞跟俄羅斯的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3932.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3949.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
这个PRC对我们的敌意我们都非常的了解我们务实的从政治实务跟边境管理台湾跟中国互不隶属或者你要说ROC跟PRC互不隶属这是客观的事实这个PRC中国政权对我们有高度的敌意 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3950.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3965.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
一旦擔任公職之後如果我們允許我們的國民不放棄另一個國家或者你要說另外一個政治實體的戶籍你不是就是傷害他讓他可能會在執行公務的時候受到政治威脅嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3966.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3985.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那這樣子其實是傷害中華民國國民規劃後來自PRC的國民行使他完整的參政權我認為對所有規劃中華民國的就是外籍配偶包含中國籍配偶這樣子的修法才是傷害他們完整的參政權以上謝謝我們這裡送禮是台灣安保協會 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4000.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4025.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
主席各位委員各位行政部門的長官各位學者先進女士先生大家好台灣安保協會理事宋澄報告我以下報告是基於針對一個法律研究者的做分析跟我的任職單位或是跟我來往的單位無關我有下面四點的報告第一點是參政權是一個公民權而非 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4026.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4047.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
基本人權並沒有現行法制在原則上面剝奪了某一個背景人員他的參與中華民國政治的權利這個其實是不存在的第二個是目前的修法建議說要對於大陸人民取得台灣身份之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4049.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4076.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
需要如果要任職或是參政然後必須要放棄原國籍不適用於大陸人民這樣的修法的建議我認為是有問題的並非一個好的方式也不是負責任政府或是負責任國會或是政黨應該要採取的態度第三點現在涉及的議題非官修憲也並不是法律衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4077.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4100.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
目前國籍法二十條適用於大陸地區人民取得台灣身份的人民並不會因為憲法規定或是因為兩岸人民關係條例之規定而有排除適用第四點跟各位探討一下可行的替代模式當然第四點要尊重主管機關的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4102.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4131.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我们先探讨一下现在的参政权他现在是大概什么样性质我会认为他其实不是基本人权是公民权如果依照国际人权的标准特别是公正公约第25条他规定说人民有投票权参政权备选举权那么他也包括服工职的权利或是参政竞选的权利那他基本上会认为说他是一个依照国家的宪法法律以及制度所赋予的而不是他的基本人权因此呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4132.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4158.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
他只要有正當的理由有合理的標準不會過客而有客觀的標準例如說規定某一個年齡以上或是居住某一個時間或是要取得某一種資格例如說語言的能力才能夠服公職或是才能夠參政這些只要是國家認為是合理的並且他沒有歧視的問題比如說對於特定族群適用對於其他特定不適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4159.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4187.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
没有歧视的问题的话国家是有裁量空间的是有一定的行程空间那么就我国而言当然就是我国向来的制度包括国籍法20条包括两岸人民关系条例关于大陆地区取得台湾户籍之人民服工职之权利例如在大法官释字第618号说明因为国家有他的考虑例如说有因为任工职立刻跟国家产生公法上之义务 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4188.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4214.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
並且有忠誠之義務的要求因此呢對於他取得戶籍之後十年之後才能夠服工職大法官員是合憲的並沒有限制這個就明顯表示依照國家的制度他是有一定的合理的標準之下可以限制然後並且採取符合國際人權公約的標準因此我跟前面的先進不太一樣是我認為說現行的不管是兩岸人民天外協會國際法20條 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4216.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4242.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
並沒有違反基本人權保障或是剝奪參政權或是違反國際人權的情形這是第一點第二點目前修法的建議會有問題是有以下幾個問題第一點就如范雲委員剛剛所說的他其實是一個差別待遇他是說針對特定的就是說中國大陸人民取得台灣戶籍的人才排除適用那麼對於其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4243.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4271.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
原本受国际法20条适用的所谓兼具其他外国国籍的人立刻就产生一个差别待遇虽然说它并不是剥夺性但是它是一个差别待遇所以有平等权的问题所以我们会问说为什么要对于特定的族群有不同待遇这个不同待遇表面上是有利的但是实际上是一个差别实际上差别就会有一个标签或是把它相隔对待的问题因此是不是符合我国宪法上平等权的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4272.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4288.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
深有疑義第二點是國際上觀瞻也會問公義到底何在如果我們這樣採取似乎就是認為說目前的狀況就是有剝奪他參政權的情形但是正如我剛剛第一點分析其實並沒有所以立法院如果萬一通過這樣國際上會認為說原來 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4291.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4316.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
中國大陸人民在台灣的參政權是受到歧視受到限制如果各位結合中國現在在國際上的宣傳他一直說中國大陸的人民在台灣受到歧視事實上我們都知道這個東西是有嚴格的標準如果他有系統性的被排除或是被不利的對待那我們可以說有歧視但是在國外的這種假訊息一直宣傳說有這樣的情形的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4317.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4343.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
有可能造成我國內部的分裂或是造成國際上的關切這件事情並不好並結合目前在立法院中種種的議案國際上會請問說到底怎麼了台灣為什麼會在某些的行為上台灣的國會會採取這樣的立場那似乎跟國際上面觀點非常非常不一樣所以我認為目前的這個修法建議不是一個負責任的好方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4345.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4373.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
第三个这件事情并非修宪我们都知道如果陆委会官员会如果说错纠正我依照我国的制度其实中国大陆人民是一个非常特殊的地方他并非本国人并非外国人是中国大陆人民所以他并不一定说是有所谓兼具国籍或是要放弃国籍的问题现在他的参政的是因为我们在一体的要求之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4373.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4402.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
因為中國特別的情形造成他無法放棄國籍或是依照中國的國籍認定他會依照他的出生地他的血緣濫用性的把其他國家認為他有國籍的人套與中國的國籍問題在中國北京政府而不是問題在我國法律這件事情非常重要所以並不是一定要修憲而兩岸條例的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4403.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4428.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
也沒有排除國際法20條的適用最後一些是替代方案我們來做一些探討有可能是我會認為說既然現行法是合憲符合國際人權條約也沒有剝奪人權這問題因此我們必須要尊重現行法既有的秩序國際法20條行之有年而且已經成為我國法秩序的一部分並且主管機關今天在國會中間聽證說 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4432.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4460.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
證實說這件事情對於主管機關認為是有價值有法益必要的那我會認為說要尊重主管行政機關的意見那麼這是第一個可行方案第二個可行方案是20條的解釋國際法20條第一項規定說中華人民中華民國人民取得外國國籍者那這件事情通常我們會認為說原本就有中華民國國籍只是他另外取得了一個國籍那明顯中國大陸人民並不是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4461.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4483.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以中國大陸人民比較是第四項他所謂艱鉅的情形他必須要放棄的情形那麼我們是不是對於他的放棄在承認到中國大陸給他的困難中間採取一些務實的一些替代方案是不是有這樣的可能第三個就是修兩岸人民條例但是把這個戶籍跟國籍把它統一化但是要尊重主管機關的意見謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4487.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4509.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
謝謝我們家陳前局長立法院法治局主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4510.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4534.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
各位委員 各位學者專家 各位先進 大家好我是立法院法治局局長退休今天很榮幸能夠應邀來參加宮廷會也提供一些給各位參考作為我們國際法內政委員會這次非常重視法律的修改特地舉辦宮廷會 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4536.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4563.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那我首先是因為有兩個提綱那這個提綱是主要這個第一就是按照這個提綱來表示就是說各民主國家的一些制度還有我國現行的法律體系還有一個制度設計還有實務運作方面那做分析跟建議以作為後續修法的參考那有關這個取得國籍我想這個簡報就各位看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4565.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4576.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個一般來講像主要的一個這個忠誠義務一定不能有雙層國籍我想這個是都有必要的那主要國家那當 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4579.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4608.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
必須說有接受規劃的這個也是不是說全面禁止那陸配身份他的來源大概就是說依據憲法增修條文第11條的規定還有兩岸條例那不是他本身因為我們兩岸治權互不隸屬那所以這個不適用這個國際法第20條那另外一個有關修法的建議我這個報告會再提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4609.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4611.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那這個我們看首先就國外法制來講那 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4614.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4640.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
第一個英國跟美國還有法國他們大概都有一個可以承認一個雙重國籍那德國還有日本他們原則上這個不贊成但是如果說有經過規劃之後就是對國家表示忠誠我想就比較沒有一個限制所以說但是一般來講現在都敏感性的一個植物他做會安全審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4641.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4645.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那但是不是對規劃身份來做全面禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4646.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4675.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那我國任職這個就是公職任用的法律體系這個大概第一個選辦法還有一個公務人員任用是公務人員任用法第28條規定還有一個特殊職務他當然是有一個特別的規定還有一個安全審查那另外一個目前這個體系大概已經相當完整了那對於這個考試的資格什麼那些都有限制就是說是我們本國國民那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4676.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4695.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
一定要是我們國民你才有具備這個任用資格那核心的一個爭議我想這個也是這次辦公聽會主要的一個目的那我想這個陸配到底是不是外國人那當然是可能會有一個不同的看法那我剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4696.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4710.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
跟各位報告過了憲法增修條文第11條是特別特別授權制定我們那個兩岸關係條例那所以說目前來講大陸地區人民不是一般的外國人那權利義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4712.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4730.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那屬於這個特別法的體系所以外國人必須要透過規劃來取得這個國籍那是適用這個國籍法那陸配的話他是要先定居然後取得這個戶籍之後他才能這個做一個轉換這是屬於兩岸條例的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4733.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4749.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那這個有關這個行政含釋那目前來講這個國際法20條他是這個沒有錯但是如果說外國人規劃那這個可能比較不適合因為我們國際法是解決這個國籍那個規劃的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4752.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4768.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那另外一個就是說按照這個現狀的這個規定來講你要取得這個放棄這個中國國籍證明可能也是完成不可能任務比較不容易因為他不願意所以說我們才會發生目前幾個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4768.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4788.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
就是說要解除這個他的相關的一個村里長的公職或者其他民意代表的一個公職那這個規定大概我們也認為說他這個人這個用行政含釋來這個限制這個因為公民參政權是我們憲法第17條所保障的那你這樣來限制可能是不是比較不妥當 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4789.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4818.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那所以說有感覺說我們的國民的一個參政權一定都要有但是在這個身份取得的轉換方面可能必須要做更周延的一個配套那目前這個有關兩岸關係條例其實它在第21條第22條它對陸配的一個參政那個就是參選已經有做一個相當相當的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4819.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4842.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那它的主要的目的它裡面有限制譬如說滿10年取得身份證滿10年之後那個可以參選 任工職滿20年可以特定的一個職務那這個規定大概就是說我剛剛有補充一份資料那這個任職規定的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4843.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4855.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那當然兩岸條例21條他的確他有規定的一些項目我現在簡單的跟各位報告這個任職的限制他只是措辭不是用任職兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4857.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4873.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那我們21條表面上寫了不得登記為公職候選人那還有不得擔任公教或公營事業機構人員不得擔任情報國防機關某些職務但這些內容本質上都是任職 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4874.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4900.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
必須具備的一個基本門檻那只是說在立法技術上的一個使用這個公職候選人他必須要取得參政的資格因為你沒有登記參選就不可能當選那所以當選後才能任職那擔任公教公營人員那就等於是直接任職那特殊國安敏感職務的話那就是任職敏感職務的限制所以我們在第21條裡面規範所謂的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4904.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4931.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
參選資格他是規範任職的資格而且任職限制非常的明確那只是條文因為立法技術上的關係那沒有列出任職這兩個字但是效果完全相同那第二個就是說登記為公職候選人與任職的法律關係參選資格登記那一定要登記我剛有報告過了你必須要先登記之後才有參選資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4934.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4961.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那所以這個是任職另外我引到這個有關司法院釋制第385號解釋它裡面提到權利義務相關連資事項法律應適用保持整體性及權利義務平衡不得任意割裂私用那既然我們這個相關的一個制度這個在我們兩岸關係條例第21條第12條都有相關規定所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4962.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4985.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
已經就大陸地區人民建立完整的特別法秩序就必須要依兩岸條例統一適用而不得再以國際法第20條吝嗇限制割裂的規定那另外有關這個立法的建議方向就是明確界定國際法20條的適用對象那第二個就是我們要陸配參政規範因優先回歸兩岸的民情關係條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4987.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5008.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那未來制度這個希望期待本次的修法仍在委員跟行政部門的理性對話中擬請體系適用的界限形成兼顧國家安全與基本權保障的共識性方案為未來制度奠定一致合憲且可長久運作的法治基礎那以上報告敬請各位指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5020.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5022.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
謝謝我們家沈博洋委員謝謝主席那謝謝委員會召委安排這樣的一個公聽會我覺得蠻重要的因為國民黨提出這一個國際法的這個修正那的確會造成一個國安的危機那也很可惜的就是說我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5046.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5066.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我看國民黨的立委還沒有來所以呢這個不知道是不是要放生但總之呢這是一個重要議題那我們要先來從廣一點的維度來看就是說呢這整件事情中國的配偶如果要參政他其實有很多階段第一個階段就是他要先取得身份證沒有身份證的話接下來都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5067.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5090.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以第一個階段取得身份證第二個階段他要去登記參選第三個階段如果他當選了當選了之後他還要任職 要就任這三個是不同的階段這三個在法律上都是有不同的效果的規定所以絕對不能夠混為一談否則這些不同的法律針對剛剛講的不同的事項做規定就變成沒有意義了 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5091.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5109.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我們先來看第一個階段第一個階段叫取得身份證取得身份證國民黨日前提出的中配六改四就是針對取得身份證他想要讓中國的配偶更快的取得身份證當時的這個理由是說想要去對齊其他這一個外國配偶的規定這其實是個假議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5110.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5128.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
為什麼呢因為今天不管你是用什麼3加2啦3加1啦4加2啦等等之類的大家要知道一般不是中國的這個外國配偶他因為在這個階段他就要回去做國籍的處理而這個時候呢在每個國家都需要很長的一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5129.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5147.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以真正他所需要的時間絕對不是四年那麼簡單不是法律規定的四年他還必須要加上他在自己的國家要去處理他的國籍戶籍所以他的時間會拉到六年七年而中國的配偶反而在這個取得身份證沒有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5148.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5164.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以中配又把它改成6改4想要讓取得身份證這個實質上就是讓他取得身份證的時間縮短這是第一個階段第二個階段叫登記參選登記參選其實不論是哪一個國家的配偶都是一樣都是10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5165.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5180.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
而這其實是很公平的沒有任何差異的但在第三個階段就是這一次修法會出現異議的部分就是任職就是他如果當選了他就任的時候他就任他必須要放棄他原來的國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5180.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5210.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
然後提出證明那在一年之內呢要確保真的有放棄國籍在這一件事情上面呢我們是按照國籍法的規定那現在的爭議是什麼呢爭議就是說中國的配偶要去適用兩岸條例的規定但很抱歉兩岸條例就是沒有規定兩岸條例規定的就只有登記第二階段的部分它不包含第三階段的部分這個法律是割裂的所以呢如果它不適用的話那我們就要去參照國籍法原本的精神嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5210.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5237.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那如果參照國籍法原本的精神他必須要放棄原本的國籍那中國是不是也要放棄這個理由其實根本也不需要上綱到憲法我們只要看境外敵對勢力很多人會講說是因為賴總統宣布了這一個中國是境外敵對勢力搞錯了中國一直都是境外敵對勢力刑法都已經修幾年了反滲透法都已經修幾年了境外敵對勢力就已經貼在法條上面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5237.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5265.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
中國的反分裂法就是把台灣當作敵對國家他就是可以武力進攻犯台他當然是境外敵對勢力啊不用講他就是境外敵對勢力那請問針對境外敵對勢力我們對於他們任職要更嚴格還是更寬鬆想也知道要更嚴格嘛這每一個國家每一個人任何的法律學者都應該可以很輕鬆得出這樣的一個結論才對啊更不要講說中國有國家情報法 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5265.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5288.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
國家情報法是針對具有中國國籍的國民可以協助必須要協助中國來收集情報那請問如果他不用放棄他自己國家的國籍的話那他不就可以在這邊收集情報嗎能夠在台灣收集情報然後他又是一個要進攻要佔領要併吞我們的國家這聽起來怎麼樣都沒有道理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5289.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5317.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們現在已經沒有把它變嚴格我們現在是參照原本國籍法的精神就是比照一般的狀況來處理而已我覺得沒有變嚴格就已經是一個很大的問題了結果現在還要把它變得更寬鬆那這樣不就是把國家安全的門戶洞開嗎所以我必須要講在這個議題上面在每一個階段都想要去鬆綁這件事情這個絕對會造成國家安全毀滅性的打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5318.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5330.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
不要忘記我們如果按照兩岸就算按照兩岸條例跟情報有關跟機密有關要20年請問立法委員民意代表能夠接觸國家機密會更少嗎還是更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5332.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5356.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
有沒有機密的會議能不能夠調機密的資料這個不就是我們的立法委員在為人民做監督的時候能夠取得的嗎所以如果在這一個方面呢甚至沒有到20年以上甚至不能夠來做利益衝突相關的這些規定都付之缺乳的狀況之下就用國際法的方式去把它做修正這個絕對是台灣的重大的國家安全的危機謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5363.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5367.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
謝謝我們家陳律師 金石法律事務所主席 謝謝主席還有那個貴文會的邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5387.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5413.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
今天本人以這個比較之前的律師的這個新進的律師來角度來以法律的角度來做分析以下的這些分析跟這個本人的政治景象並沒有關聯本人是這個金石國際法律事務所的律師那本人認為是說在這個因為這個前面幾位的這個專家學者還有這個委員他們對於這個世界各國的這些就是針對提綱上面的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5415.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5436.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這個問題已經有非常多的破話了還有很多的說明了那本人認為是說如果要成就好的修法的話恐怕是需要再把這個爭議的這個基礎去加以釐清那本次的修法爭議其實就是針對這個內政部對於這個國籍法修法國籍法的這個外國國籍這四個字的解讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5436.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5466.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那我们可以看到就是内政部是怎么说明的内政部是说这个依照现在两岸人民关系条例的规定21条只规定到所谓的这个涉及满10年可以登记为公职候选人但一旦当选的公职以后就必须回到这个国籍法20条的规定必须放弃中华民国以外的国籍而这边的中华民国以外国籍呢在这个相关的这些部会的这些产事上好像是包含了这个中华人民共和国国籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5467.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5478.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那在這個對於大陸地區政府來說我們國家的這個政府好像是持著一種雖然討厭但不得不承認其存在的立場那 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5479.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5501.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這一次的邏輯是什麼這個主管機關的邏輯就是大陸地區人民依照兩岸人民關係條例第21條登記為候選人並當選以後就必須依照國籍法第20條第4項必須放棄外國國籍也就是說依照現在主管機關的認定認為是兩岸人民關係條例似乎就只管到了所謂的登記階段那 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5501.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5530.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
根據我們根據我的這個分析呢我認為這樣子的看法或許值得商榷所以說本次的這個爭議點的就是本次本人認為的爭議點大概有這三個就是第一個也就是說兩岸人民關係條例的第21條第一項的規定的這個擔任公教是否有內含著國籍法20條第4項限制的意思以及第二跟第三所謂的外國國籍是否包含了中華人民共和國國籍還有我國是否肯認這個國籍的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5531.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5547.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那我們看到兩岸人民關係條例陸委會還有那個內政部在解讀上就是只針對這個不得登記為公職候選人去加以闡釋那在後面的四個字呢擔任公教呢就目前為止的話是看不出有進一步的闡釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5548.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5573.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那我們可以看得出來這個兩岸人民關係條例21條第一項它跟國籍法第20條第一項規定的立法體例與文藝是相同的那在這種情況下可不可以說這是一個兩岸人民關係條例沒有規定的情況而必須依照這個同條例第一條後段的規定去適用國籍法第20條第一項以及第四項呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5574.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5602.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
在這種情況下恐怕有所疑問那再者或許可以說在這個情況下國籍法第20條第4項仍舊是這個兩岸人民關係條例沒有規範到的情況所以依照這個同條例第一條後段仍然需要回歸適用國籍法第20條第4項但是國籍法第20條第1項與第4項規定的前提都一致那能否在這個就如剛剛陳局長所說的可不可以這樣子割裂去這樣抽離的去做解釋恐怕也有所疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5603.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5607.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
而且陸委會過往的解釋過往的函式也有提到兩岸人民是以戶籍為標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5609.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5635.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
並沒有所謂的中華人民共和國國籍可言而且也有提到說這個對兩岸人民關係條例的這一個二十一條的這個解讀呢他是說只要滿十年就可以擔任為登記為公職候選人以及擔任公教那這邊的擔任公教應該要以應該要跟國籍法第二十條第一項做相同的產式啊那這邊的擔任公教難道又有內含著二十條第四項的限制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5636.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5654.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以這邊的擔任公教難道是指有條件的擔任嗎也就是說依照這一條是可以擔任的但還是要放棄國籍嗎那另外與國籍法第20條第一項的適用關係又為何這恐怕也是修法或者是本次的修法需要了解需要去釐清的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5654.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5674.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
而且依照我國憲法的徵修條文的前言還有我國憲法徵修條文第11條的規定這都明確揭示了我國是沒有我們稱呼對岸的領土這個地區我們是用大陸地區來做法定的用語並沒有所謂的中華人民共和國的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5676.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5693.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
而且在法律上我國的國家安全法第2條還有公職人員選舉罷免法第56條第4款還有戶籍法新住民基本法都把外國跟大陸地區去加以區分顯見立法者也認為外國人與大陸地區的人民是不同的人再者 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5696.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5718.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
公務人員任用法第28條第一項第二款以及第十款的修法的原由也可以請大家看一下公務人員任用法第28條第一項第二款跟國籍法第20條第一項是有相似的規範的是有相似的文藝的但是我們可以看到它的立法理由的上次的修法理由的 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5719.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5746.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
有提出說這個增訂第十款的理由呢是為了這個兩岸人民關係條例的限制所特別規定的那如果我們今天認為內政部的這個說法這個中華人民共和國國籍為外國國籍的話如果肯認這個中華人民共和國國籍的存在那為什麼我們在上次的修法公務人員任用法必須增訂第十款呢恐怕也需要加以去闡釋釐清那再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5748.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5764.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
在大法官的這個四字的這個708號解釋與710號解釋是針對這個邊境管制中的收容以及人身自由保障去做解釋我們也可以看得出來大法官在針對外國人的這個收容制度與人身自由的保障採取了 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5764.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5786.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
不同的這個解釋去做闡釋還有他就把710號解釋去做用710號解釋去對大陸地區人民去做解釋我們也可以看得出來這就是在公法學上所謂的事物本質上不同所以以不同的待遇的一種闡釋方式再來就這個反滲透法第二條第一款的解讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5787.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5808.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我國的台灣高等法院也有提到這是一個馬志威的案件我們也可以看到說司法實務上對於中華人民共和國這個疑似是國家的這個概念他們是認為反滲透法第二他是反滲透法第二條第一款所謂的政治實體或團體也就是他並不是一個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5809.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5832.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
再來最高法院對於這個在大陸地區犯罪的這個情況啊他們是一向認為說在大陸地區犯罪仍應受我國法律的處罰因為大陸地區有屬於我國的領域而且在刑事司法實務上就大陸地區人民犯罪以後是否依照刑法第95條宣告驅逐出境的問題多數法院也都認為並非外國人不能由 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5833.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5858.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這個法院宣告驅逐出境那在這樣的情況下內政部這樣子的看法是否要根本性的挑戰最高法院的穩定見解呢因此結論小結是不論是基於憲法其他現行法規或司法解釋等等我國並沒有肯認中華人民共和國國籍的空間或可能性當然也就不可能把外國國籍解釋為包含了中華人民共和國的國籍再者 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5859.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5873.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們雖然討厭但不得不承認的這個中華人民共和國他也有一些其他的規定請注意這不是本人肯認中華人民共和國憲法或者是法律而是在肯認大陸地區人民擁有中華人民共和國國籍的邏輯下 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5874.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5890.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們如果肯認大陸地區人民依照中華人民共和國國籍法擁有中華人民共和國國籍那似乎全體的台灣人民依照他們的規範也都有中華人民共和國國籍那麼如此的解釋下請問何人可以符合國籍法第20條的限制再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5891.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5904.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
依照他們的國籍法第四條的規定也會有這兩個修法的意義請問台商子女如果在大陸地區出生是否依照我國法治的解讀下他就永遠無法擔任中華民國的公職、君職以及教職 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5905.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5932.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
並且現在的這個根據日前的這個報章雜誌也有提到我們國家的這個高階的這個將領有這個1980年後出這個出生後或者出生於或者是居住於大陸地區的情況那他目前是擔任了中華民國的公職君子君子或教職之一那是否必須依照這個我國的國籍法第20條第4項去放棄中華人民共和國國籍否則必須免職呢因此我的結論很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5933.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5957.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
在我國法治下並沒有肯認中華人民共和國國籍存在的可能更何況肯認其為外國國籍當然拉回這次的修法我認為修法一直或許利益良善但是在解釋上可能會有一種解釋空間就是修法後才不適用於大陸地區人民但修法以前可以適用於大陸地區人民的解讀空間也就是說本次的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5957.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5970.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
反而是肯認了原本國籍法第20條的外國國籍包含了中華人民共和國國籍的這種可能性所以因此大院若予以修法的話恐怕需要審慎的為之謝謝謝謝黃教授國立台灣大學政治學系 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5983.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5993.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
主席我們各位官員我們各位媒體界的朋友各位先進大家好很高興參加這個討論我有一個書面意見我就照著這個書面意見講 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5997.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6019.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們第一個提問是說提綱是說世界各國到底怎麼樣對這個就是說這個外國人比如說他是這個尤其是當他是雙重國籍或是說他是規劃者或他是類似我們這邊講的這個陸配然後大陸的這個居民等等這些那 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6020.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6049.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我認為說在學理上這就是涉及到我們廣泛所稱的這些就是說這個外籍人士的基本權的保障這個憲法基本權的保障那通說都是認為他們還是受到基本權的保障但應該依照各該領域或案型的公共利益的需要那麼來做必要的限制那麼這樣才是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6050.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6073.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
比例原則跟平等原則那麼就我們這個今天講的這個符公職來講那當然就是說到底所涉及的公職的職位層次比如說總統這個職位那當然就是根本的不一樣或說立委或說地方層級的這個行政首長或是議員那麼就說依照公職的層次跟屬性他所涉及的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6074.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6103.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
政治忠誠性的高低可以嗎那麼所需要政治的那麼那麼以及另一方面就當事人所屬的群體他跟這個所在帝國跟我們中華民國的這個關係那麼這樣來這個兩邊來做有關的衡量這樣子那我這邊特別要舉一個德國的例子就是說因為我們的這個兩岸人民關係條例事實上是有參考德國的這個立法例 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6104.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6116.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
德國二次大戰後,西德首先是否定東德有根本的國家屬性因為他是個叛亂團體,所以東德人民就是西德的人民當然享有基本權 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6125.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6153.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那麼在1973年這個東進政策之後他還是一樣他認為東德是整體德國的一部分等等這些所以他給東德人民的待遇幾乎是沒有任何限制的東德人民就跟西德人民一樣享有各式各樣的自由權的保障居住、旅行、選舉權、備選舉權等等這些工作權等等這些好 那我現在就趕快講到第二段來 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6154.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6167.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
就是說我們對陸配的規定是否妥當那我認為說我們現行的規定還是要講到我們憲法那最重要就是說我今天要講的是說我們這個國內很多在聯合報中國時報的評論意見都是這樣講的我也是這樣講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6170.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6186.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
就是說我們的憲法遵修條例的前言就講到會因應國家統一潛質需要那麼以及我們這個憲法遵修條例第11條就兩岸人民的這個就大陸第一人民的這個權利義務跟這個其他的事由得以法律為特別規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6187.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6206.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
所以我們事實上是在現行的憲法的架構下我們是因應統一權的需要那對大陸人民我們是做了用授權用法律來做特別的規定是這樣那我們這個規定我可以跟各位講說我們跟西德的版本不一樣是說我們更小心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6207.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6226.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
西德是幾乎是全面性的他在處理東德的這個人民的時候不管是1973年之前還是1973年這個基礎條約簽訂之後東進政策之後他認為東德人民就是他們的人民享有完全的這個相同的這個基本權甚至還制定有關的這個一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6227.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6253.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
輔助啊一些這個補助啊等等這些的法律來來協助他們融入更有那我特別講說我國有一個跟我剛剛講的有一個相近的就是說呢我們四字第618號解釋這是一個一個這個陸配那麼他在10他不到10年他居住未滿10年他就考上這個這個我們的高普考然後就分發去一個國民學校當幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6254.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6279.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那可是循序部呢就依照任用法那就就沒有讓他這個任官這樣子那他就針對這個你看當時大家都信奉都沒有爭議就是一切就是依照兩岸人民關係條例那相關的10年涉及規定是在第21條第一項大家都沒有爭議那大法官也做出618號解釋是這個樣子所以我們今天是 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6279.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6295.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
突然突襲啊我們今天是突然就是改變說是要用國籍法那這個主要的理由我想大概有兩個一個就是我們今天內政部跟我們沈不陽委員所講的就是說這個大陸呢他們文攻武嚇統戰滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6297.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6316.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
摩我日氣等等這些我們面臨可能相較於我們這個修憲一開始修憲之後的情形我們更加的受到危險這樣子所以要做更嚴格的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6316.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6332.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
可以嗎那這是個宏觀的判斷那我們大法官也講像這種宏觀的判斷如果立法院做出有關的規定那大法官都會接受因為他這個就會降低他的這個違憲審查的密度這在6182解釋理由書清楚講到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6332.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6353.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以我會認為說假設民進黨團或是我們的高層他認為說因應當前的兩岸的情勢的發展的需要應該做出比較強悍的管制規定那應該是在兩岸人民關係條例去落實而不是你突然轉了一個調說我們是兩個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6356.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6384.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
而且是改用國際法沒有經過任何修憲修法就要做這樣的一個動作我認為是突襲是違反向來人民的在徵修條文那麼在兩岸人民關係條例的這個法的確信長年以來已經實行這麼久了所以最後我要特別講到就是說我們今天對陸配的參政權我認為應該從兩岸人民關係條例去做管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6385.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6407.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那現行的管制規定是只要你涉及滿10年就可以了就可以參政就可以扶工職就對了那這個規定是不是過於寬鬆因為我們國際法事實上有比較國際法好像第10條有比較就是說哪些職位是外國人是不能來幹的是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6409.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6430.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那所以就是說我認為說就陸配或是我們大陸居民那他在台灣合法取得居留之後那他的這個扶公子的權利應該做如何的管制可以嗎這個是那這是涉及宏觀的判斷那也許各個主要政黨有不同的判斷可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6432.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6449.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
應該從這邊來做有關的管制規定那這才是正辦而不是你突然就換了一個軌道一套的這個論述這樣子那我還是最後要講回來說那麼我們現行這個兩岸人民關係條例用涉及滿10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6451.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6461.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
作為要件那麼針對立委這個就是說我們這個我們本件的這個爭執可能是主要最近的爭執比較大的爭執是針對立委的這個就任那我認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6464.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6484.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我雖然講這見仁見智但我認為說也是夠了就十年夠因為我們這個社會變動的非常激烈那他在台灣待滿十年應該也是相當融入不是再那麼的教條那麼的受到大陸的這個方面的這個方方面面的指揮監督我報告到這邊謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6490.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6493.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
今天我們在這裡討論的是國籍法還是國民的參政權其實沒有那麼複雜請回歸中華民國憲法第二條第三條就很清楚中華民國憲法第二條中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6518.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6543.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
自主權屬全體國民所有是國民不是人民第三條中華民國國民有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民憲法裡面大概出現有些關於國民人民跟民族的描述當我們講人民的權利物的時候他包含了在中華民國領域當中不是本國的人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6544.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6573.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
也同樣享有宗教自由也同樣享有一些我們憲法保障的基本人權但是你必須是國民某個程度上就是公民國民有依法納稅服兵役的義務依法但是外國人他在中華民國境內享有普遍的人權這不爭的事實所以我們回到當我們談中華民國人民的時候他在哪裡出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6574.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6599.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他在我們徵求條文的第11條第11條說自由地區與大陸地區間人民權利義務關係及其他事務另訂法律特別定例之人人民之間大陸地區跟自由地區這又有趣啦什麼時候中華民國分成大陸地區跟自由地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6601.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6625.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
政協條文他的前言寫為因應國家統一前置需要所以才會在第一條裡面很清楚的規定第一條規定什麼 政協條文中華民國最重要的主權表現在兩個地方第一個修改憲法第二個變更領土必須由自由地區的人民來行使自由地區的選舉人抱歉不是選人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6626.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6650.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
是自由地區的選舉人表示什麼儘管在國家統一前 因應國家統一前之需要當年的時空背景我們被迫把台灣有效的自選放回台澎金馬我們稱之為自由地區其他的地區稱之為大陸地區但是大陸地區的人民享有中華民國的國家主權嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6651.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6680.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
因為他不具備憲法第三條所說的具有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民第二條講什麼講總統的選舉一樣是由自由地區的選舉人選舉產生再來我們看第四條立法委員立法委員由誰選舉產生這裡就比較有趣了他在第一款第二款第一款叫做直轄縣直轄市及縣市我們俗稱的區域立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6681.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6701.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
第二項自由地區的直轄市及縣市第二項第二款他寫說自由地區的原住民包括3D原住民跟平地原住民第三部分區及僑居海外之國民僑居國外的國民也可以來選立委耶那怎麼回事呢為什麼因為憲法徵銷條文第10條明白的寫著 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6709.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6726.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
國家對於僑居國外國民之政治參與應予保障所以在中華民國地區有國籍的中華民國國民才享有國家的主權才得以選舉總統才得以選舉立法委員才得以變更領土才得以修憲這個跟其他的法律啊夏威法律他寫在這裡啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6734.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6756.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
要談國計畫請先兩岸人民關係條例先回到我們憲法本文跟任意的條文兩岸人民關係條例規範的是什麼兩岸自由地區跟大陸地區間人民的權利義務能夠把大陸地區的人民可以來擁有中華民國國民享有中華民國的主權嗎沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6759.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6778.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
甚至連原來是中華民國國民因為僑居國外他因為在國內超過時間他失去了戶籍他戶籍牽扯到戶籍所在地連這樣的原來是中華民國國民因為僑居國外因為憲法徵銷權明白規定要保障他的參政權他才得以 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6779.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6794.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
在總統大選前六個月反國恢復戶籍對不起修正他必須在國外必須對於他反國投票必須循法律的規定他才能選總投票給總統請問僑居國外的僑民回來國內他可以投給立法委員嗎不行要依法律的規定他先必須恢復戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6807.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6834.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
在都復席地停留滿4個月以上所以我們知道連原來中華民國國民僑居國外的人都受到這麼嚴格的規範所以當我們在這裡提出大陸地區的人民他要如何來行使中華民國的主權包括很明顯的參政權變更領土修憲選舉總統選舉立法委員當然要規定我在這裡不得不稍微批判一下花點時間這裡面我們有位我們前的局長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6835.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6851.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所謂的登記為公職候選人是什麼意思因為中華民國不僅是允許雙重國籍你人民可以雙重國籍但是你公職人員必須是單一國籍包括誰包括僑民 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6853.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6879.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
如果說所謂的僑選的部分區立法委員如果你是僑民你擁有僑居地的國籍你就算是列為部分區的立法委員你當選後一年內必須放棄台灣以外的國籍連僑民這麼明顯強烈的自由地區居住的原國民他僑居之後他回來他可以參選有沒有叫他參選前就放棄啊沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6880.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6907.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們要求當部分區僑選的立法委員要求這些立委先放棄他在僑居地的國籍嗎沒有因為他會不會當選不知道啊他排名在他的部分區名單如果他登記為部分區的名單他就要放棄僑居地的國籍那這是對他國家容許他保障雙重國籍的剝削同樣的大陸地區的人民他來到台灣之後他在取得台灣的國籍的同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6908.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6927.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
他仍然可以保留對岸的護障對岸的國籍因為台灣是容許雙重國籍的所以容許你參選你必須10年以上 社福籍10年以上但是但是你落選了你還是維持你的雙重國籍啊這跟僑民是沒什麼兩樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6928.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6955.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
只是對於來自大陸地區的人民我們有兩個規定第一個要選擇擔任公職他參選要10年以上要擔任軍職人員要20年以上為什麼因為大陸地區目前是由敵對勢力所控制所以來自於大陸地區這個人民他在台灣他可以擁有雙重國籍但是他要擔任公職必須有戶籍10年以上才能參選沒當選你還是可以保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6957.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6964.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
如果你要擔任軍職想要從軍擔任志願役的軍人你必須涉及滿20年以上這個有規定有不得已嗎我們中華民國憲法第130條國民年滿20歲有選舉權年滿23歲有被選舉權這是一個普通規定特別規定規定什麼總統我們憲法第45條中華民國國民年滿40歲得選舉總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6987.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7000.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以縱使是國民我們的選舉權也會有特別的規定所以當我們在國際法裡面對於規劃的國民外國人可以規劃為台灣的國民他規劃為國民他在規劃的時候已經放棄了雙通國籍了所以規劃的國民有沒有辦法參選公職可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7015.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7039.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
但是你大陸地區的人民你取得台灣的戶籍跟身份證你有行規劃的時候的放棄國籍嗎沒有啊沒有啊先不談參政我們來談健保僑民過去在國內使用健保很普遍但是從今年開始抱歉過去你只要回來台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7041.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7068.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
你健保繳費滿半年以上你就可以使用健保現在是規定啊如果你簽出台灣戶籍簽出台灣你必須持續繳健保費你才能回到台灣來才能繼續使用健保如果你中間有斷掉對不起請你補齊了你才能參加健保健保跟民主制度都是台灣的驕傲連本國的僑民因為僑居海外他要回來使用健保都必須接受這樣的權利義務對等規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7070.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7092.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
但是但是我們對大陸地區人民他取得台灣的戶籍之後他當然可以享受健保連他的家人依親也可以請問規劃的台灣的外國人規劃台灣的外國人他的外國的家人不具有台灣國籍的家人可以這樣子嗎不可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7095.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7112.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以今天如果是我們的法律制度我們歧視大陸地區的人民這是絕對錯的因為我們對大陸地區人民之間的權利特別的權利義務關係李前總統說過台灣自由地區跟大陸地區是一個特殊的國與國關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7115.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7144.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
國語國聽好啊所以他們是不是本國人是特殊的外國人而他這個特殊的外國人的身份優於其他普通的外國人所以當我們今天談國際法談兩岸人民關係條例請看清楚憲法第二條第三條以及憲法政協條文第十一條的規定憲法政協條文第一條第二條第四條都清楚的規定中華民國的主權屬於全體國民所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7145.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7166.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民選舉總統選舉立委變更領土修改憲法必須由自由地區的選舉人為之連僑民他要行使在台灣的參政權都必須循相關特殊法律的規定我們在這裡並沒有對不起來自大陸地區的人民我們歡迎他加入自由地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7167.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7175.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這是自由地區那邊是不自由的地區你從不自由的地區來到自由地區我們歡迎你接受這裡的民主自由法治謝謝我們家料理師 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7186.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7207.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
主席各位先親大家好我是廖國祥律師今天分四點來跟大家說明這個修法的議題首先第一點請大家不要混淆人權跟公民權的概念我們最近很常聽到說支持修法的不管是支持修法的人士或者立委常常喊說這是在保障人權防止對於中國籍配偶的人權侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7208.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7233.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
但這個說法顯然過於沒有憲法常識因為參政權雖然是規定在憲法的基本權裡面但是並不是人權它是公民權公民權是以國民身份為前提而且並不是唯一的前提可以依法律加以限制舉例來說年齡限制是不是一種年齡投票年齡是一種限制參政年齡是不是一種限制那對於不允許雙重國籍或者是避免中程衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7234.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7258.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個當然也是具有法律上面限制的可能性甚至是必要性的那第二點對於參政權的限制其實核心問題點就在於忠誠義務是否會產生衝突為什麼我們要求單任公職者必須要放棄原國籍這是因為我們要確保他對於我們的國家有絕對而且單一的忠誠而且我們呢而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7259.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7277.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
而且我們沒有辦法在個案裡面對於每一個要來擔任公職要來擔任民選公職的人去做思想檢查去做忠誠測驗因此我們必須要從制度上面去訪免這就是這個法律規範的必要性那大法官在釋字第618號解釋裡面剛才很多人也提到了講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7277.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7299.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
裡面提到因為兩岸特殊的對立狀態為了台灣的安全跟自由民主憲章秩序的維繫那對於大陸地區人民擔任公務員其實在法律上也設下了這個限制了他是合理而且正當的並且可認他是合憲的那最後解釋是對於大陸地區人民擔任台灣的應考式服工職權的這個限制大家想想看 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7300.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7322.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
如果連擔任依法行政的公務員都必須要以法律去加以做限制去防止他們的可能中途的違反中程衝突的違反之外那權力更大可能影響到國家政策走向甚至能夠接觸到國防外交機密的民選公職人員這樣的參政權難道不能用法律加以限制嗎當然不是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7323.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7340.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
不要再就說別的兩岸關係條例裡面就連包含繼承遺產的總額這個關於財產權都設有限制的那哪有說參政權不能限制的道理所以說只要是限制就是侵害人權這樣說法過於跳躍第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7342.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7364.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
現在的國際法規定只要是有其他國家國籍身份者不管你是美國籍日本籍或是其他國籍如果要擔任台灣的民選公職的話都必須提出放棄國籍證明文件這是一個一視同仁的標準並沒有歧視任何一個國家或是地區的人民那如果今天我們單獨為中華人民共和國的國籍開了這個後門 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7365.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7382.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
允許他們不用放棄原國籍就能擔任民選公職的話這其實是創造出一個顯然不合理的差別待遇反而會違反憲法上面的平等原則那更何況中國籍配偶沒有辦法提出放棄他們原國籍的證明文件是因為我們中華民國法律的限制嗎不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7383.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7412.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
是因為中華人民共和國不願意承認中華民國的存在所以不能因為說他們的人民所以他們中國不承認說他們的人民取得我們中華民國的國籍之後會自動喪失他們原中華人民共和國的國籍所以他們無法取得這個證明文件這個顯然是來自於對岸不管是政治上或者是法律上面的因素但是並不是因為我們的法律對他們加以怎麼樣的限制那為什麼現在是我們要討論怎麼修法幫他們解套呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7413.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7438.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
ok最後一點也是最重要一點我們不能無視於法律上的忠誠義務的衝突這個不是政治意識形態的問題這是法律事實的問題中華人民共和國的國家情報法第七條就規定了凡是中國的公民都有支持協助配合國家情報工作的義務什麼是國家情報工作講白話一點就是間諜工作啊那一旦我們允許沒有放棄中國國旗的人民進入立法院進入其他的民選公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7439.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7463.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他在法律上一定會陷入一個兩難就是他到底要遵守中華民國的憲法忠誠還是要去履行他身為中華人民共和國國籍者法律上所賦有的支持配合國家情報工作的義務呢這是一個客觀存在的法律上風險不能用什麼保障人權為名然後將這個忠誠衝突甚至法律上面衝突視諾無睹就別說別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7464.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7475.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
一位差點成為民眾黨的不分區立委的叫徐春英他前陣子也才因為涉及到反滲透法而被收押而已啊這是現實上面的可能存在的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7477.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7503.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
OK那這邊也不需要扯什麼憲法一中或憲法不一中其實重點一直都在於忠誠義務的衝突這邊就問一句話你們讓擁有中華人民共和國的國籍的人民擔任民選公職跟讓擁有美日國籍的人擔任民選公職哪一個對台灣的安全危害比較大哪一個的忠誠義務影響以及對國家的安全的威脅比較大這才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7503.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7530.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
所以說如果說什麼都是用憲法所謂的斷章取義的憲法一中憲法架構就全部去合理化正當化的話那要不要乾脆請解放軍請他直接登島就好了因為國軍共軍根據這個一中憲法全部都是中國軍是不是那樣這是如此荒謬的說法謝謝大家謝謝大家陳副教授國立成功大學法律學系 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7538.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7564.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
主席各位先進大家好我是成功大學法律系副教授陳一凱剛剛在聆聽的在座許多先進的這個發言我們想要澄清一個觀念那當然也有很多同時都澄清了因為我們彼此必須要有一些對話那這裡的一個問題就是說剛剛吳教授有引到這個公正公約第25條他認為說這個是人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7569.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7594.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
但是這裡的條文是說它不能去任意的或是說不合理的去限制也就是說你合理的差別待遇它是可以的並沒有所謂的各國都允許外國人通通可以毫無條件無限制的可以來參與公民權或是投票權 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7596.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7624.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
德國在1990年漢堡幫跟這個幫這兩個幫都有提出要引進外國人的投票權但是這兩個法通通被聯邦憲法法院德國聯邦憲法法院宣告違憲的它的理由是說根據基本法第20條所有國家權利來自於人民然後這個人民指的就是德國國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7625.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7650.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
而不是外國人那這裡呢就是說他已經但是德國呢他卻因為受到歐盟條約的這個拘束那歐盟條約呢在馬斯崔克條約的時候就已經引進了所謂的歐盟盟籍或是歐盟公民公民權籍就等於是他的意思是說凡是取得會員國的國籍者呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7650.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7677.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
就通通都是歐盟的公民者就是歐盟的盟籍歐盟的盟籍那因此他就引進了歐盟的在各國的這歐盟國家境內的鄉鎮地區的選舉權與被選舉權那因此歐盟國家在這個限度內就例外的可以容許比如說義大利人到德國的杜賓根 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7678.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7695.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
杜濱根市他可以去被選為可以去投票也可以被選為杜濱根市的市長以及他也可以去投票去選這個投票選這個歐洲議會的議員他不必回國就在 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7696.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7721.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
就在德國就可以投票了那但是這個是因為有一個前提你必須是歐盟國家然後歐盟國家呢都是信守民主自由法治人權的這些國家也就是說呢他會篩選篩選出說跟他的理念共同價值是相近的為什麼會這樣子呢因為呢國籍它的含義 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7722.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7746.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
他是國際法他是來自國際法的那國際法是說他是含有國民對國家負擔忠誠義務國家對國民負擔保護義務的這個相互權利義務關係所以不是我們自己可以隨便解釋的那麼剛剛在座也有陳律師呢去講說我國好像因為我們有兩岸人民關係條例然後又說 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7748.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7774.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們沒有去把中國大陸地區不承認中華人民共和國的國籍以及不承認就是說而且他還引了這個大法官的解釋釋字這個701他認為是你的措辭710對不起710是大陸地區人民那7108是外國人民他認為說這裡就是我們沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7775.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7800.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我們沒有去承認但是大家忘記了710710跟708都是要把大陸人民驅逐出境的才會去收容那誰可以把自己的本國國民驅逐出境呢不可能啊那你你把本國國民你本國國民你只能把他剋除徒刑有期徒刑或處罰你不可能把本國國民趕出去從這個710跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7805.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7810.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
708的這樣的一個解釋就可以證明他就是外國人然後呢剛剛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7814.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7841.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
還有那個大法官的解釋剛剛已經有很多先進已經提到了618號解釋我再提另外一個解釋497號解釋497號解釋是說大陸地區人民非經主管機關的許可不能入境不能進入台灣地區那這個也被大法官解釋為是合憲的那假設大陸地區人民是我國的國民的話我們不可能一定要許可他才能夠入境 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7842.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7868.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
你不能阻止本國國民回國那這是一個國際法所以你不可能去做這樣的一個限制那另外呢關於公約呢我們不是只有1930年的海牙這個公約他已經明定這個單一國籍的一個原則但是這裡呢並不是說他忍受外國國籍這不是這個意思而是說呢國籍你能不能去 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7869.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7889.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
取消他的國籍以及能不能授予他的國籍這個要按照國際公法也就是說國際公法是說從Notbond的這個判決就是說你要跟這個國家有一個genuine link就是真正的聯繫那麼這個陸培他在中國出生然後他的父母都是中華人民共和國的國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7890.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7914.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那他就跟中華人民共和國有真正的聯繫跟我國是沒有聯繫的所以他要成為我國的國民就只能規劃而已不論我們用的措辭是什麼要不然的話我們對他設說他要幾年要居留幾年才能夠取得身份證這裡就是一個假設他真的是我國的國民的話我們這樣做就是違反國際法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7916.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7937.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
另外呢就說中國陸配他沒有辦法回國去取得證明說他的國籍被取消那這個問題呢我們說聯合國世界人權宣言第15條他肯認人民有變更國籍的權利跟自由但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7938.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7967.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
中國他自己他其實世界各國都是這樣人民如果說要換國籍的話呢大家各國都會同意的但是中國他自己不同意那我們沒有辦法去幫他同意那我們可不可以說那我們不要我們就直接把中國大陸的人民視為我國國民這個也不可以為什麼因為他跟我國沒有任何聯繫因素那我們如果這麼做的話呢我們就是等於是違反了國際公法那我們不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7968.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7984.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
無視於他跟中國的這個聯繫那我們通通不承認所以這也不是我國承不承認的問題而是我國在國際公法上呢不能越取代跑然後去撤銷或是說去去幫中國他自己PRC是去 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7985.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8002.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
去把他自己的國民的國籍把它廢除這是我們沒有辦法這麼做的那今天的問題就是說忠誠義務那麼大法官618號解釋呢也已經肯認了公務人員還要更進一步的加強他的這個忠誠度那今天我們想一想假設我們把這個取消的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8004.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8026.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
剛剛也有我們如果把這個取消的話那我們舉一個例子假設陸配他現在現在又又說又被我們說他是共諜然後呢我們要起訴他他他就說哎我對中華人民共和國也有忠誠義務啊這裡是忠誠義務的衝突啊所以我這裡是不可抗議所以我阻卻違法那這樣子我們要怎麼處理呢謝謝超過時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8030.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8035.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
謝謝男嘉 陳佩瑜 立委好 謝謝主席我非常開心剛剛到了現場聽了廖律師還有陳老師的發言我想關鍵真的就在於忠誠度的問題如果忠誠度的問題沒有解決要賣弄法律文字我認為台灣人民會看得非常清楚但是我還是要主張在立法委員我們跟在野黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8060.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8081.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
公房當中我想要提出幾個關鍵性的問題也要拜託在野黨委員一併考慮喔那我不確定今天有多少國民黨提案的委員會來參加公聽會或者是民眾黨的委員但是我要說如果你們既然敢提出修法就請你們公開跟台灣人民說清楚你們到底為什麼要修這樣的版本但話沒有是國民黨提出但現在是民眾黨委員坐在這邊好第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8082.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8096.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
行政院在112年就已經明確指出兩岸互不隸屬是既成事實但可能這樣的事實不為在野黨委員所接受那行政院的函其實已經寫得非常清楚了而且我要談的是台灣走過民主化而且政黨輪替 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8097.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8123.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
宪政深化两岸互不隶属早就是事实但是有人不愿意见到这个事实也不愿意认清这个现实还要继续用30多年前的法律精神刚解研不久的制度来宣称中国人民也是我国国民真的显得非常的荒谬刚程老师也说得非常清楚了而这种论述跟现实脱节更是在直接否定打脸台湾这30多年来的民主进化 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8124.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8148.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
因此我认为这件事情非常不可取第二个台湾目前的社会共识非常简单要在台湾担任公职就应该要舍弃双重国籍这个原则用在萧美琴副总统身上是如此用在过去的李庆安委员也是如此一直以来都没有例外我不知道为什么现在中国国民党要提出这个轻重的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8148.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8174.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
要讓中國籍的配偶到台灣來參政卻不是用這個規定非常非常的奇怪而這個奇怪的邏輯背後其實我認為是在為中國造橋鋪路中國的什麼造橋鋪路呢中國的滲透統戰侵略跟併吞台灣的心造橋鋪路我認為大家看得非常的清楚因為中國並不是一般的民主友邦在陳老師的簡報裡面雖然剛剛大家沒有看到我桌上有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8174.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8192.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
有提到非常多民主国家还是敌对国家对台湾的姿态对台湾所表现出来友善程度中国绝对不是一般民主国家所表现出来的样态而是一个时时刻刻并吞威胁恐吓共济绕台这样的国家在对待台湾这样的政权 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8193.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8208.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
而中國國民黨現在的修法正是在幫中國降低滲透統戰侵略的成本所以我要說這是在自我削弱這個制度讓台灣所有的人民處在一個共同的國安困境之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8209.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8226.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
再來我要說兩岸不是也不可以是內政的問題如果按照現在國民黨的修法版本在法律上中國人民跟台灣人民會被認定是同一個國家但剛剛有非常多律師跟老師也說了我們就不是同一個國家再說一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8226.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8248.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
台灣跟中國就不是同一個國家如果在這個框架底下未來任何問題都會被視為是內政問題就讓台灣的主體性就消失了而我們目前所有國際民主友人還有所有在國際上為台灣發聲的台灣人也好不同國家的人也好要如何看待台灣這個奇怪的位置所以我想根據聯合國的憲章不干涉內政情況下只要台灣問題被視為是中國的家務事 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8254.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8281.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
任何的國家在未來都沒有介入的空間那我們是如何辜負現在全世界民主國家對於民主發展的想望跟期待而這也就是為什麼中國不斷的推動一中敘事拉著台灣所有親中舔共的政治人物一起喊兩岸同屬一個國家這個荒謬的說法而現在如果台灣內部有任何一點點的聲音持續承認並且一起繼續大聲的喊出這一點那其實是讓中國犯台的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8283.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8298.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
降到最低甚至是零成本而這是我們想要看見的嗎反之如果兩岸的問題可以被視為區域安全的問題國際介入就有正當性中國動武就必須付出巨大代價我認為這件事情國民黨跟民眾黨也要說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8300.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8315.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
還有再來我想國際有人為台灣發聲已經有非常多案例我就不再舉例可是我要繼續說如果你們要繼續主張兩岸是同一國是內政問題就是在為中國無力犯台找藉口鋪路 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8315.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8323.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
合理化正當性甚至是欺騙蒙騙台灣國人所以我要說我自己成陪於身為立法委員雖然過去我從來沒有過雙重國籍但是站在為台灣效忠的這個前提之下我認為在台灣要擔任公職就是要必須捨棄雙重國籍今天我們要反對的不是中配而是國籍法修法背後的國安破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8340.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8367.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
還有國際戰略局勢中絕對不要傳達出錯誤的訊號給國際民主友人我要再說一次國民黨的委員民眾黨的委員如果沒有看台灣的民主發展故事不願意看過去台灣建言時期有多少民主前輩流血流汗種下台灣現在的民主成果你們今天不會坐在這裡你們不會成為一個人民票選出來的立法委員請對台灣的民主歷史發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8367.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8379.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
做出負責任的說法還有修法而台灣需要的是清晰堅定的法律邊界還有對台灣人民效忠的立法委員而不是對中華人民共和國北京政府效忠的立法委員謝謝謝謝我們家劉淑彬立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8398.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8399.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
感謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8402.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8428.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
感謝主席今天也安排了這項會議來討論國籍法的一個修訂那這個修訂最主要是因應到陸配的一個問題那本席這邊想要跟大家說明的是中華民國我們現在在場的所有的立委都是中華民國的立委因此你必須要遵守的是中華民國憲法上面的位階它是最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8429.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8445.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們現在所徵修條文的前言裡面就已經講了中華民國的一個狀況在特殊的一個情形之下就是要針對兩岸的特殊關係有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8447.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8464.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
兩岸的人民關係條例這也在後來的憲法當 徵修條文當中已經訂定了這樣的規定我們的特殊的情況雖然在1991年但是不要忘記了憲法是不長治久安的因此即使在是三十幾年1991年訂定的現在是2025年 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8467.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8482.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
但是在13 14年的那個歷程當中在30幾年的歷程當中就是讓我們保證了一個長治久安中華民國就是一個長治久安的一個基礎這是重要的第一點好 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8483.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8505.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
另外呢最近的一個陸配參政的問題呢社會討論非常多大家也看到說內政部的劉志芳部長呢他說陸配因為有外國的國籍所以要適用到國籍法20條但是本席要很清楚的說一句話在我們現行的法律體系裡面陸配不是依照外國人來處理的這就是依據到中華民國憲法增修條文而來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8512.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8530.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那所以呢以處理到用國籍法帶處理陸配的問題不是解方這不是政治立場這是法律上面事實我們是一個法治國家絕對是要堅守憲法法律法規行政命令這樣的位階不然怎麼叫法治國啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8531.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8552.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
中華民國的立法委員不遵守法制這算什麼立法委員啦另外依照徵修條文憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區人民不是外國人陸配取得身份證之後就是中華民國的國民這個例子在東西德的例子上面就有看到了東西德的例子上面就看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8553.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8574.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
好 那我們繼續往下看兩岸人民國際條例當中21條也寫得很清楚社集會滿10年不能夠擔任公職滿10年就可以所以今天問題不是國際法有漏洞而是民進黨政府錯用了錯誤的法律想想看在蔡英文總統時期有出現這個問題嗎沒有啊賴清德總統上台的時候才是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8580.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8597.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
造成了他自己在競選的時候辯論的時候他說他當選台灣不會發生戰爭但是現在就是一直在兵兇戰危的情況所以是民進黨政府才造成的政府整個制度的大混亂我想要直接說明三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8603.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8624.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
來說明為何要修的是兩岸人民關係條例而不是要修國籍法第一國籍法不是適用陸配的國籍法本來就是要處理外國人但陸配呢是大陸地區人民是兩岸人民關係條例處理的對象這是憲法授權法律明定沒有模糊的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8625.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8643.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
第二讓陸配提出放棄大陸籍證明根本做不到中國對我國並沒有配套制度這份文件也不存在但政府卻要陸配拿出不存在的文件來證明這就變成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8644.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8660.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
要有人會撤銷他的戶籍有人沒事但是完全在我們國內的這是沒有一致性的尚未因此就再造成更多的一個對立第三真正的漏洞是在兩岸人民關係條例現行的第21條只要規範就不能夠參選 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8666.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8684.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
他只規範的是說如果你沒有放棄戶久你不能參選但是並沒有規範當選後的忠誠義務也沒有明確國安的程序的國安考量這部分才會造成的所謂行政機關自由行政法院判決不一致陸配家庭非常的焦慮造成的裡面的社會的緊張現在民眾黨所要提出來的就是要補救的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8694.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8702.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
兩岸人民關係條例而不是國籍法這個是我們跟國民黨不一樣的地方我必須講清楚而是要把兩岸人民關係條例把它補強補到完整那我們主張方向非常清楚是什麼呢第一不要剝奪陸配的權利他們尤其是參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8712.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8738.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那為什麼因為他們是領我們國民中華民國的身份證的國民也是公民而且他們是十年之後才能夠參選才能夠登記那如果可以在台生活十年以上他們納稅工作也是在養小孩是社會的一份子是制度給他們一條清楚的路而不是讓他活在這個不確定裡面第二個我們的方法就是用公開忠誠宣誓取那不可能取得的文件既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8741.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8756.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
放棄大陸籍的證明拿不到那就不應該再用這個標準了改成公開宣示中華民國遵守憲法體制不受境外指揮這是大家做得到也那個為數公職的正當性大家說那這有沒有國際的這個案例呢有喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8758.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8783.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這是有國際的案例的在宣示的制度的其他國家包括美國加拿大澳洲英國德國等國家對於他加入公職成為公職或是加入國籍他都要宣示忠誠這個地方就是本黨未來要提出的這個方向就在思考的方向這不是台灣獨創而是民主國家的共同做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8784.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8801.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
最後本席要反映出來很多的陸配家庭真的很焦慮因為制度很不清楚標準不一致但陸配不是外國人國際法本來就不是處理他們的法律但是現在如果內政部部長自己劉世芳都錯用法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8802.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8830.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
他是不是適任到一個當內政部部長還在製造我們的很多社會的問題正確的方向就是把兩岸人民關係條例補起來補到每一個人都知道該怎麼做怎麼樣的方向去進行陸派的參政權公職的擔任公職權利不應該讓行政機關隨意的解釋法律就明文有的就要去進行要逮捕的兩岸人民關係條例去修法不就可以了就可以達成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8831.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8850.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們需要的不是對立而是制度清楚這樣能保障所以跟我們一般一樣的都已經進入到成為我們國民甚至是十年之後擁有公民權的陸配的權利這樣台灣才是一個融合和可以共同在一起為大家的共同的目標在努力的這樣子一個社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8852.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8865.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
也能維護到我們國家安全忠誠的制度靠宣示公開的宣示在正式到就職之前到選舉單位去宣示這一部分多一個宣示公開呈現可能就是一個方向好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8870.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8883.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
謝謝 最後我們請今天的議會機關代表回應說明我們修正省下內政部吳常務次長回應說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8890.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8910.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
主席還有今天與會的各位學者及各位委員我想我們內政部大概又做簡單的幾點回應就是有關修正國際法20條的規定第一個我們還是要重申第一個擔任公職負有國家忠誠的義務這是全體國人一致的適用規定所以只要欲擔任公職者 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8911.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8937.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我國籍以外之國籍均應放棄並不會因為他是陸配或是新住民我們對他就有因為只要成為我中華民國的國民就要各遵我中華民國的法令這是第一個第二個部分就是在行政院秘書長在112年5月22的函式就已經一再強調第一個 中國大陸人民並不具有我中國的國籍非屬我國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8937.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8960.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那一旦取得我台灣中華民國的身份之後既然轉化為我國的國民 擔任公職就一定要各遵我國國際法20條之規定那另外有關取得切結書的部分我這邊也簡單做說明第一個 在國際法20條規定我們並沒有去要求以切結書替代的規定這個是並沒有解釋的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8961.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8988.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
而且大陸能不能放棄他的國籍是中華人民共和國的權利跟義務他要不要出去證明給原中國大陸地區人民的一個資格的放棄那那個是由中國中華人民共和國自行來決定這個我們也沒有修法的必要那以上先簡單就這個其他的部分就剛剛委員的幾個重點部分那我們內政部把我們的立場打他做一個說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8989.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8994.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
主席好 各位大家好剛剛聽到各位學者還有立委的意見我想有 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9018.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9046.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們要稍微說明一下第一個我們之所以這一次會談到是國籍法第20條其實所以很多人認為說這個到底大陸人適不適用國籍法這個會產生其實大家的看法南轅北轍但我們說明一下因為國籍法的20條的這個規定其實原來是規定在選罷法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9048.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9076.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
其實原來是規定在選罷法裡面它是後來才被移過來到國籍法如果今天這條文還在選罷法裡面的話我覺得這個爭議會比較少一點因為大家就不會再去爭議說這個國籍法到底適不適用於大陸地區人民我想這是第一點要澄清的第二點我們陸委會的立場還是一樣就是說基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9076.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9106.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
基本上我們尊重內政部的解釋是所有的所謂的外國籍就是中華民國以外的國籍所謂外國籍就是中華民國以外的國籍那而不管說這個國家是我們承認還是不承認或者說我們只是認為他是一個政治實體或者是一個武裝團體等等都是一樣譬如說北塞浦路 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9106.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9133.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
北塞浦勒斯共和國他在全世界只有土耳其承認他在全世界只有土耳其承認但是如果一個人他同時擁有中華民國國籍也有北塞浦勒斯共和國的國籍那我們還是會要求他必須要放棄北塞浦勒斯的國籍他才能夠擔任中華民國的公職人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9134.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9160.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以以上是這兩個跟大家釐清一下然後另外一個最後是關於最近有一些說法就是說用宣誓效忠的等等但是因為這個在我們的相關法律裡面其實並沒有任何這樣的規定並沒有這樣的規定而且其實宣誓之後它的法律效力到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9162.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9175.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
宣誓的法律效力到底是什麼其實並不清楚那如果說有學者或是說有實務界的人士可以把宣誓的法律效力定義清楚的話我覺得這個也許可以討論好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9180.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9189.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
感謝 現在我們依從有回應的說明 請各位專家合作有需要第一輪的發言後來我們請廖律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9201.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9202.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
來 請問我們的學者專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9234.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9235.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
吳教授謝謝 我只是要說明憲法第二章的基本權在17條 人民有選舉權在大法官會議解釋290條它選舉權就包含了被選舉權然後憲法第18條就是扶公子權所以這些參政權都是基本權 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9258.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9263.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
再來在公民與政治權利國際公約它也是產民公民權就是基本權那它裡面事實上它有被選舉權跟選舉權 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9270.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9283.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
更重要他是合理的限制是可以但是不可以限制到沒有這個權所以這個是人民也是國民也是公民非常重要的權利那今天我們事實上也在講他的國民權跟公民權為什麼這麼講呢因為某一個立委有特別講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9292.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9311.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
中國大陸地區人民享有中華民國的主權嗎可是事實上我們今天講的是已經規劃我國國民您有身分證甚至涉及10年的公民權不要扯太多 因為扯太多的話甚至我們都要討論事實上中國大陸人民到底可不可以規劃為我們的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9313.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9318.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
是不是規劃為我國國民他可不可以有選舉權都要討論了那我們是不是又要討論古巴啦或者是伊朗啊他可不可以規劃為美國公民因為美國所有規劃的人都可以擔任國會議員所以我們看到了那個局長的資料我也非常佩服他說包含了英國美國甚至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9340.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9346.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
德國法國日本都可以擔任國會議員所以當然我非常贊成的是我們可以去討論忠誠義務但是這個忠誠義務2016年的時候我們就已經討論非常多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9356.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9376.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
而且這個忠誠義務已經做了考量甚至於我們法都沒修十年了十年都沒有修怎麼會在一夕之間這個陸配的憲法的公民權變化這麼大所以我覺得法律我站在法律的立場它有一致性注意它的一致性非常重要謝謝謝謝我們請專家來幫助李教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9389.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9412.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
謝謝主席很快的回應起點第一個剛剛吳老師說到的公民權的部分不管是這個外國人或是中國大陸人都一樣在國際法第十條也有規定就算是外國人他也要十年所以基本上這是一律公民權的這個規劃者就取得 即受國際取得者的這個權利是一致的並沒有特別針對陸配做特殊的規定那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9413.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9433.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
為什麼要用這個國籍法 剛剛劉委員提到 兩條例規定是滿十年才取得參政權但是取得參政權之後 兩條例第一條也告訴你了這個兩條例當中如果沒有規定的話 適用其他法律規定取得參政權之後你就要回來看當你真的當選了 你要放棄國籍那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9434.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9462.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就回到國際法所以這個邏輯是這樣子的因為兩條也沒有規定所以如果這樣子是就都是銜接上也符合法律的穩定性那第三個就是說在這樣子的過程中有提到說那中國是不是很沒有辦法拿到相關的這個放棄國籍證明我告訴各位是可以的我告訴各位是可以的那我不展開相關的研究這有研究可以說有些國家他是用宣誓取代有些國家他就是要你拿到這個證明但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9462.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9474.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
中國的政策他是曠日廢時你可能要幾個月要幾年要很長一段時間但是國外的法體力是有這樣子放棄中國國籍證明之後加入這個國籍而且去參政的這是第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9475.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9502.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
最後一個就是說基本上所以看到現在整套的一個發體力當中其實重點是在於我們希望兩個部分一個是維持所有的規劃者不管是新住民不管是這個外配、中配所有的新住民他是一致性的這樣子的一個參政的平等今天為了中配特別拉出來說不需要取得放棄國籍證明那其他國家的配偶呢其他國家的新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9503.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9520.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這樣子這是反而破壞了平等權然後再一個就是說剛剛忠誠義務我就不提了第二個當然是忠誠義務的問題這個我就很多都提過就不提了最後一點就是說剛剛吳老師也提到說美國英國法國這剛剛我報告也提到了我們要考慮的是不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9520.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9546.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
類型的民主國家他所面臨到的整體的參政制度應該怎麼安排你可以考慮美國的沒有問題但是你也可以考慮布魯地亞三小國的你可以考慮英國的沒有問題但是你也可以考慮澳洲的這是國際上兩種不同的趨勢我們應該統統整整來考慮特別是當我們面對到中國這麼強大的敵對的壓力的時候我們應該更整整來思考怎麼樣維持這個參政權的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9549.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9561.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
公平性 維持參政選對於國家安全跟忠誠的一個保障性我覺得東西可能是要橫平一起來思考的 謝謝謝謝南嘉澄滬教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9569.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9592.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
幾點快速補充一下就是說剛剛提到的那個我們可不可以用我們宣誓來作為一個替代的一個方案那我必須講說目前我們沒有國際法上的權限去幫中華人民共和國去發聲產生真正效力的那個撤銷他的國籍或是終止他的國籍所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9594.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9622.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
國際法是這樣授予國籍是一個主權的行使撤銷國籍也是主權的行使所以呢各國呢只要他是合乎真正的聯繫的話還有公約裡面的規定比如說公約說他如果是他國的申請就是規劃為他國國民或是說他去他國當兵或是說他去當任他國的公務人員或是說他從事外國的間諜或是說他他是去外國 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9624.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9646.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
從事這個恐怖活動那麼這些活動的話你可以撤銷國籍因為這裡有公約上1963年的這個防止這個無國籍的這個公約以及歐洲國籍公約裡面有規定所以你只要合乎那個規定你才能夠撤銷那個國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9647.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9676.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
但是那個撤銷是他們本來的原來的國家才有辦法撤銷假設我們說好我們用一個自我宣示的一個方式那對不起你沒有辦法達到說消滅對方的國籍的一個效果而是你開的例外變成說他可以變成雙重國籍然後留在台灣然後繼續從事公職是變成只有這個效果而已沒有產生一個國際法的效果就說他的國籍就已經取消了那我們還是維持住我們的單一國籍的一個公務人員並沒有這樣的一個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9677.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9688.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
另外裡面關於撤銷國籍公約可以被承認的就是說你不可以去他國擔任公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9690.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9710.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
或是去擔任去當兵那這個是特別的嚴重的違反這個中程義務的衝突那這裡面有特別的點出來所以我們對於國民呢你可不可以同時又有外國的國籍又同時又擔任公務人員這件事情呢在這裡就是公約認為是特別的不相容 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9710.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9735.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以我們在這裡必須要特別的謹慎那麼就算是承認雙重國籍的目前也慢慢的要來增加要討論要撤銷的引進撤銷雙重國籍的國籍的這個規定今年的那個德國總理就說如果在德國反猶太犯了刑事犯罪而反猶太的這個極端主義者要考慮要撤銷他的國籍以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9736.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9751.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
如果說你不符合德國的這個自由民主基本秩序的話他在內政部的報告裡面他說德國國際法第17條的法定喪失國籍的構成要件應該要擴充那些拒絕德國與歐盟的基本價值也要考慮撤銷國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9752.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9773.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
還有芬蘭他們也都有這樣的一個討論說要引進比如說對不起我的時間到我最後一句就是說申請規劃要從對於有疑問的國家來要調高他的實現而不是降低他的實現他們會去問你是不是從歐盟國家民主法治國家要過來移民的還是說你是一個從極權國家過來的謝謝謝謝大家陳先生局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9783.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9783.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
嗨 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9789.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9817.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
主席還各位專家學者還有部會的首長那剛剛聆聽了很多這個意見那覺得這個講的其實各有一個觀點那我還是要一個強調就是說4至第385號解釋那個就是法律就是權利義務相關連的話那我們的法律是不能割裂適用那所以今天這個案子因為我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9818.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9843.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
目前就是因為憲法徵求條文第11條他的規定特別規定所以有兩岸關係條例那第21條其實他有規定有關任職相關的一個事項所以應該這個規定的話應該就是我們還是回歸到那個兩岸關係條例第21條或者第22條的相關規定這樣可能就是不會違反那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9844.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9854.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
4至第385號解釋所謂的不能割裂適用的這個法律規定以上這個補充 敬請各位指教 謝謝謝謝 專家還有什麼意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9860.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9886.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們感謝各位專家提供報告的意見所有出席人員、發言人提供的書面資料刊登公報以後我們會另外製作公聽會報告向本議專體委員及所有出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9889.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9894.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
領館做參考在此感謝各位的參與謝謝大家今天會講聽會到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |