| IVOD_ID |
17094 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17094 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-03T08:35:52+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-03T12:47:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:11:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea66a919a0b9b1b1fb2eb2cb96cc8bbb8eb4456b5c46cbb78c490b674931ef2ade5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員王義川等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員陳素月等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。八、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員蘇巧慧等22人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員李坤城等23人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十一條、第三十一條之一及第四十條條文修正草案」案。【第一案、第十七案至第十九案如經復議則不予審查；第二十案至第二十一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】
【12月3日及4日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:52 - 12:47:00 |
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1554.218 |
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1557.766 |
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來我們家署名報告出席人數現在我們開始開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1565.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1587.097 |
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進言報告屬行家先讀上次會議記錄立法院第十一屆第四會期內政委員會第十三次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年十一月二十六日星期三上午九十五分至十一時五十八分地點紅樓二零二會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等十四人列席委員林一錦委員等十二人列席官員內政部政務次長董建宏及相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1587.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1615.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
原住民組委員會副主任委員杜章梅莊暨相關人員法務部經濟部財政部交通部文化部行政院主計總處等機關代表暨相關人員主席黃昭暨委員建斌報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項依審查土地法委員鄭天才等22人拟據土地法第14條條文修正查案委員傅坤祺等17人拟據土地法第195條條文修正查案委員賴世保等27人拟據土地法第97條條文修正查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1615.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1642.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
委員陳昌明等16人擬拒土地法第25條條文修正草案二審查原住民身份法委員鄭天才等18人擬拒原住民身份法第二條條文修正草案委員武麗華等18人擬拒原住民身份法部分條文修正草案委員郭國文等16人擬拒原住民身份法修正草案委員林益錦等22人擬拒原住民身份法第11條條文修正草案委員高金素美等17人擬拒原住民身份法刪除第11條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1642.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1665.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
委員鄭天才等二十人擬具原住民身份法第七條條例修正草案案討論事項 合併詢答委員賴氏寶 陳超明 吳麗華 林怡瑾書面說明提案要旨內政部政務次長董建宏 原住民組委員會副主任委員杜璋梅莊報告委員蘇巧慧等十六人質詢由內政部政務次長董建宏及相關人員原住民組委員會副主任委員杜璋梅莊及相關人員答覆說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1665.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1679.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
登記發言委員除不在場 則外其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員高晶 宿梅 丁學忠 所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及為其答覆部分 請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢我們請問有錯誤或是疑似有什麼問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1691.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1694.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒有喔 這樣我們的議事錄確定繼續進行討論署行簽讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1704.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1732.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
審查行政院含情審議炸氣犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案繼續審查委員王定宇等18人 拟據炸氣犯罪危害防治條例第54條條文修正草案 繼續審查委員廖先祥等18人 拟據炸氣犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案繼續審查委員張宏祿等30人 委員林益錦等27人 委員王逸川等16人委員陳素月等18人 分別拟據炸氣犯罪危害防治條例第47條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1733 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1758.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
審查臺灣民眾黨黨團 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案 審查委員王美惠等18人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第47條條文修正草案 審查委員蘇巧慧等22人 委員黃婕等21人 委員李博義等16人 分別拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案 審查委員李昆城等20人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防制條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1759.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1779.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
第47條條文修正草案審查委員翁曉琳等25人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條及第44條條文修正草案審查委員翁曉琳等24人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條及第47條條文修正草案審查委員吳佩義等17人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1780.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1808.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
審查委員賴瑞隆等十七人 委員李昆城等二十三人 分別拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文修正草案 審查委員羅志強等十九人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案 審查委員洪孟凱等十七人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第四十三條條文修正草案 審查委員黃婕等十六人 拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第三十一條 第三十一條之一及第四十條條文修正草案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1811.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1825.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
本月議程所列討論的屬行合併巡打現在我們來介紹在庭的委員及列席官員第一位我們洪孟楷委員再來我們張志倫委員李柏毅委員黃婕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1844.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1868.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
南內政部劉部長警政署張署長刑事警察局周局長詐欺犯罪防治中心張主任行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心王執行秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1871.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1890.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
金融監督管理委員會銀行局周祖密證件期貨局黃祖密國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處蔡處長基礎設施處張科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1901.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1929.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
數位發展部數位產業署防護署長法務部徐政務次長我們的主任 劉主任檢察官經濟部商業發展署李組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1932.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1959.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
交通部交通科技及資訊師理事長農業部農業金融署勞務組長財政部官務署楊檢任司法院刑事庭顧副廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1963.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1981.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
吳法官民事廳毛法官司法行政廳李法官各自保護委員會籌備處法治事務組林組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1990.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1997.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
現在我們提案說明剛才所定義的題為我們請李博裕委員提案說明全民打炸 全民防炸這是一條永遠不會停下來的路 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2017.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2044.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以我今天特別為被害人來對於防詐條例第46、47條來提出這個修正的草案的說明原本的草案裡面是針對詐欺犯罪的行為人的檢刑跟免刑要件只有自首或者是自白並自動繳交犯罪所得並沒有對於被害人的賠償有什麼要件所以我提案的內容裡面包含第46條的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2045.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2070.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
自己去自首的除了要繳交犯罪所得以外更應該要積極賠償被害人所受的損害並由法院審酌其賠償才可以得到減刑或免刑第47條是針對已經被抓到了他才認罪的必須要全額填補被害人所受的損害或者是跟被害人達成和解才可以減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2071.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2094.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們除了要重視自首自白對詐騙的這個偵查以外更應該重視被害人對被害人的權利的賠償詐騙集團就算只是車手也是殘害被害人的一份子要有更積極的作為來補償被害人才可以獲得減刑否則打詐這一條路上永遠會有漏洞謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2097.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2101.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝我們感謝李博義提案說明我們請黃姐委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2111.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2138.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
好 謝謝主席我在這邊提一下我的提案說明我的提案其實分成兩個部分第一個是針對這個最高法院4096號裡面裁定說詐欺犯只要找回個人犯罪所得就可以減刑這件事情那其實這件事情在社會上也引起嘩然覺得說哇 原來現在不管你是車手還是說這個詐騙產業鏈裡面的任何一份子只要你可以繳部分的所得用非常少的錢就可以換減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2140.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2160.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那這個對被害人來說非常非常的不公平所以我提案修正46跟47條嚴格規定如果被告要爭取減刑必須要把被害人因本案所交付的全部的財物都進行無條件的提存或者是你要必須支付這個進行調解或和解的全部的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2160.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2187.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這就是這一次修法最重要的其中一條就是大家的立場都很清楚就是不能讓任何一個這個詐騙集團的任何一份子就算你是車手 車手都讓你輕易的脫罪那另外一個部分跟大家比較不一樣的是我有加強網路廣告的透明化我是參考歐盟的數位服務法裡面的精神修正第31條要求網路的廣告平台的業者必須要建置公開的廣告庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2189.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2207.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
强制揭露你广告的推播的参数例如说你的广告推播的年龄性别地理位置等等还有刊登的时间跟触及的数据让相关的研究机构跟我们的执法单位都可以来分析你的诈骗的路径跟你针对的对象是不是真的投其所好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2207.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2212.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那還有另外一部分是因為很多詐騙其實都會偽裝成他的試用心得或是什麼投顧專家財經專家等等用這樣的方式用網紅的方式變成一個業配文但是這樣的廣告其實是沒有規範的所以我也增訂了31條之一建立創作者主動申報跟使用者的檢舉機制如果發現應該要標示而未標示的廣告內容就像我說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2234.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2262.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
他明明就是廣告可是他假裝是一般的使用心得假裝是投顧的專家財經的專家來告訴你說這是他的經驗那民眾其實可以通知平台來處理告訴大家這個就是業配這就是廣告這個明明內容就是涉及詐騙那如果平台沒有依規定來處置的話也可以面臨20到500萬元之間的罰還來杜絕這些假推薦真詐騙的情形以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2264.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2271.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席各位同仁以及我們行政官員詐騙零容忍絕對不是口號而是實在的行動過去幾年台灣社會受到詐騙的衝擊真的非常的嚴峻說是民怨第一名絕對不為過 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2293.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2322.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
而更重要近期有媒體報導做民調高達九成二92%的台灣人民都認為現在台灣詐騙非常嚴峻所以很嚴肅的指出新型態的電信詐騙犯罪就是動搖社會信任侵害人民財產權的嚴峻問題我們不分黨派朝野就是要共同面對並且築起一道又一道的牆讓詐騙集團付出應有的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2323.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2349.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
代價還一般無辜的民眾的權益清白所以針對今年8月在打詐2.0的專案報告的時候本席就已經有向行政院長跟法務部長提出要求應該是要針對詐騙所得犯罪修法追討騙多少欠多少罰多少這才是正本清源的做法而今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2349.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2377.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
本席以及我們立院的同仁大家都有針對不管是43條、44條或是46、47等相關的修法本席所提出43條的修法就是希望能夠加重處分的密度最大程度強化對於人民財產權的保障因此確保刑法所造成的損害結果具備高度的罪責相當性這是我們43條修法的精神跟態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2377.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2387.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主張階級化的刑事處罰機制讓詐騙犯罪所造成被害者的財損結果明確分為三個階段的懲戒等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2388.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2407.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第一集如果說詐騙損害達500萬以上者要加重處分3年以上10年以下有期徒刑並併科3000萬元以下罰金第二集如果說詐騙損害達1000萬以上者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑並併科3億元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2408.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2437.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第三级最高如果达新台币1亿元以上的财产损害针对这种社会经济秩序造成严重侵害的犯罪行为要处7年以上有期徒刑并且并科5亿以下罚金透过阶级跟提高刑罚密度的设计传达一个清晰且坚定的信号就是国家绝不容许任何不法手段获取暴力的诈骗行为 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2437.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2463.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
中華民國絕對不是話外之地任何詐騙犯我們都絕對嚴正拒絕另外本席也看到我們行政部門的修法建議其實也是認同並且希望能夠增加重刑責為要件是要有行政院跟司法院的相關版本本席予以尊重但刑責輕重的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2464.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2493.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
法務部內政部尊重內政委員會的審查結果我們也希望能夠尊重委員們所提出來最重的刑責處分最後我們也必須要說這只是一部那另外包括本席所提出來現在看到新加坡有針對詐騙犯打詐來實施邊行的制度來嚇阻詐騙再次在新加坡發生也已經三讀立法通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2494.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2522.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
快兩個月的時間了本席一而再再三強調我們的相關法務部門司法部門以及警察部門都應該要具體的去了解到底新加坡他們針對這樣的一個打詐行為上路之後有沒有具體在短期之內有獲得成效而可以進一步當作是我國立法後續未來的參考我們再一次強調我相信在這個委員會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2523.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2534.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不分黨派 大家都共同厭惡詐騙 堵絕詐騙 打擊詐騙這是我們共同的使命不會停止感謝王美惠委員所排案我們繼續努力 謝謝謝謝我們感謝洪孟愷委員提案說明我們現在由劉部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2554.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2571.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好首先感謝各位委員對於打擊詐欺犯罪的重視跟關心而且對於內政部跟所屬業務上的支持跟指導那內政部就報告如下請各位委員可以予以指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2572.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2588.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
為了防治及打擊詐欺犯罪危害我國在去年的時候制定詐欺犯罪危害防治條例並且同時修正洗錢防治法刑事訴訟法與通訊保障及監察法等打詐刑事法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2588.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2605.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
樹立了打詐法治新里程碑也非常謝謝立法院各位立法先進的支持與鼓勵那本詐欺犯罪危害防治條例由內政部擔任中央主管機關並且由金融監督管理委員會國家通訊傳播委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2606.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2626.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
數位發展部以及法務部依照業務執掌分別擔任各個目的事業主管機關主政不同的章節以及相關的條文那這次的會議審查本條例的部分條文修正草案分別就屬第二章救援防詐機制第三章溯源打詐執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2627.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2648.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
以及第四章詐欺犯罪被害人保護雖然分別由金管會 訴發部以及法務部負責主政但是部分條文在執行上涉及警察機關以及相關機關的配合事項所以由本部防治及打擊詐欺犯罪工作上推動是相當的密切的從 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2650.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2674.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
本條例施行以來內政部積極在落實相關的規定跟執行經過分析165打詐儀表版的數據今年11月平均每天受理的詐騙件數為452件每天每日的平均每日的財損是新台幣1億9970萬較去年同期每日受理的606件有下降25%那 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2676.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2699.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
去年的這個時期的每日財損是四億兩千兩百五十三有下降百分之五十二顯示行政院的執政團隊在執行本條例及持續推動上面的已經略具初步的成效能夠有效的抑制詐欺犯罪發生與財損但是呢我們並不以此為滿從去年的一月到十月內政部跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2700.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2724.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
各部會相關的防詐關鍵業者來合作在市詐的宣導方面防詐資訊觸及已經有高達一億七千零九萬人次全班攔阻有一百一十六億九千八百四十八萬餘元較去年同期瀏覽有增加百分之十二那一六五的打詐儀表板網站上線以後呢已經突破了四百九十三萬人次的瀏覽在賭詐方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2726.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2752.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
一共攔阻了釣魚簡訊有一千八百四十八萬則攔阻境外來電有三百二十萬餘通通報停話或斷話總共有四千三百六十二門在防詐方面收報涉詐廣告有七萬餘則包括meta涉詐訊息有十三十四萬餘則就meta違法部分函請速發部裁罰了一千八百五十萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2753.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2772.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
通報涉詐網站或網域停止解析有3萬餘件停權涉詐LINE的帳號有8萬餘件函與LINE的公司來合作將7.3萬個涉詐帳號予以停權以及下架涉APP817件在主詐方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2773.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2800.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
內政部的警政署都同各直轄縣市政府警察機關運用金流資訊流以及物流等多元管道主動查找疑似被害人本年也就是今年1月到10月已經通報了三萬四千件約七成的被害人能夠意識遭詐而停止匯款成功的攔阻金額達一億七千餘萬元平均可減少約六成的財產損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2801.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2822.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
有效降低受害者的损失另外在办理警示账户或账号剩余款项的发还作业已经成功发还金额达4亿余元左右在惩诈部分今年1月到10月侦破诈欺集团3337团查获犯嫌一共有27496人 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2825.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2844.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
查扣不法所得一百億五千四百四十三萬餘元令本部的警政署亦都同各警察機關破獲多起重大詐欺犯罪案件以及規劃專案掃蕩具有豐碩的成效也請各位委員多加指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2844.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2871.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
有關各黨團及委員擬拒本條例部分條文修正草案的部分對於防止詐欺犯罪以及保障民眾權益的用心內政部深感敬佩對於加強金融及數位經濟產業的防詐措施加重犯嫌刑責 附加禁車規定以及保障被害人獲得損害賠償的良善利益內政部競表贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2872.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2896.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
本條例在去年經過大院、司法院以及行政院共同合作完成制定從113年7月31日奉總統公布施行以後各部會具以訂定相關的執法及配套措施並且落實執行已經發揮初步的抑制、詐欺犯罪的效果在執行面上面隨著詐欺模式不斷的演化 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2897.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2924.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
行政院團隊也持續檢討本條例落實的情形以及研議精進各項防堵措施及時因應新型態的詐欺模式本次行政院所凝聚的本條例部分條文修正草案也經過各部會盤點並且有把精進之處加以說明為了保障人民財產安全與端正社會善良風氣期盼各位委員可以共同支持以上簡要的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2924.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2939.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
也謝謝召委以及各位委員可以多餘指教敬祝大家身體健康 萬事如意謝謝謝謝 我們感謝劉部長的報告我們請法務部徐政務次長報告主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席代表本部報告並備諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2953.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2980.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
之報告如下 敬請指教一 感謝各位委員長期關心打擊詐欺犯罪議題各位委員所提的草案修法的方向均在嚴懲詐欺犯罪及強化填補被害人損害以呼應國人打詐政策目標維護民眾財產安全本部對於委員提案版本的修正目的均表支持 贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2980.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3009.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那尊重主管機關政策的意見及大院決定6月25號併案審查六案意見請參考前次書面報告本部對於本次會議新增14案提案內容意見也請參考手邊的書面報告第二以下說明行政月十四114年11月13號含請大院審議版本是為了解決實務執法面臨的議題所做的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3010.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3030.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那涉及溯源打詐執法部分共有三大修正重點敬請各位委員不吝指教及支持第一在草案第43條44條那針對高額詐欺犯罪提高法定刑責加速嚴懲重罰以嚇阻不法第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3031.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3059.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
為了加速填補被害人損害修正草案第46條47條自首自白且於一定期間內賠償條和解權額的人使有獲得法院裁量減免刑責寬點之可能第三在50條第二項增訂禁車條款那作為良形參考的標準本部身為打詐國家對懲詐面向主責機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3060.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3088.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
將持續督導台高檢帶領檢警調機關結合其他打詐國家隊的成員透過行事及行政分進合集強化公司合作嚴密防詐網絡防堵詐欺犯行貫徹打詐綱領2.0終止以減少詐欺犯罪數以及民眾的損害使人民有感政府打詐之決心以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3092.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3099.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
謝謝我們感謝徐政務次長的報告現在其他單位的報告請委員自己自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們來進行諮詢委員諮詢前嚴厲做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3113.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3119.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
算過本會議委員發言的時間5分鐘必要時我們延長2分鐘會議本會議委員發言的時間5分鐘可以在10點30分截止發言登記本組會議要處理臨時提案請問各位委員有什麼意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3139.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3145.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們現在來進行詢問我們這裡定期為李博義委員發言我先請刑事局長還有抒發部產業署副署長副署長抒發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3183.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3209.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
謝謝副署長周局長你聽一下你參考一下接下來我要對副署長所提出來的這些內容副署長請問一下我們蘇巴部有沒有做統計台灣的詐騙在網路裡面詐騙最多來自哪一個公司如果說刊登網路廣告平台的部分的話我們最多看到刊登最多是在Meta |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3209.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3237.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
Meta大概有多少的比例是來自Meta這些如果依照我們目前每週在做的統計Meta大概90幾%90幾% 是 嚇死人那我們有什麼相關的這些可以約束Meta針對它的這些廣告商等等的這些有什麼樣的裁罰我們目前有沒有對廣告商的裁罰嗎我們目前有沒有對於這個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3238.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3267.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
它已經造成這麼多的詐騙廣告在它平台上面流通那我們針對這個平台或者是對這些廣告我們有什麼約制或裁罰的能力好的 我們謝謝我們的打詐專法去年的一個通過所以我們有幸可以請這個網路廣告平台業他們能夠被我們納管以後在台灣他能夠設立法律代表人然後讓我們的文件收送能夠有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3268.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3293.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
有沒有裁罰有沒有裁罰他的能力有的我們其實事實上在這將近一年的過程當中其實事實上已經剛剛部長報告我們已經裁罰了1850萬元好來來我跟你講一下來那個副市長是在美國以及在這個歐洲那其實他裁罰的數量金額其實遠遠高於我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3294.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3309.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
比如說在美國他美國政府裁罰Meta因為詐騙廣告就罰了10億美元一年就罰了10億美元那歐洲呢他這個數位服務法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3309.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3327.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
它規範的這個罰則裡面是包含它全球總營收的6%如果說Meta在全球賺了1000億美金好了它是可以罰它60億美金的那所以來副市長我希望你可以研議一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3328.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3356.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
如果這個平台的廣告繼續還是這樣子的話那我們有什麼手段可以讓這個平台害怕因為畢竟我們是比較晚一點我講一個紀錄片給你參考一下在劍橋各自風暴裡面的David Carlos這一個劍橋大學的教授他針對Meta提出一個控告他要控告Meta到底的大數據裡面到底有多少他個人的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3358.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3379.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
Meta到現在還是沒有辦法提出來但是在歐洲整個歐盟政府它產出了什麼它產出了數位服務法它產出了一般資料保護規範它約束了Meta在使用個人個資上的所有的這些行為但是在台灣有沒有辦法約束到這一些你有沒有辦法跟國人說 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3380.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3394.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
你在点选这一些可能某一些商品或者是你的兴趣的时候Meta随之而来的就是大量的这些广告当你点选这些可能投资资讯的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3394.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3410.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
他伴隨帶來的這些廣告對於所有的用戶有沒有這些防止詐騙的這些功能我們有沒有辦法約束到他們這一些其實這些就是很多都是投資詐騙就是從這裡來的嘛那所以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3410.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3430.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我覺得我們離進步的歐盟還有美國對於這些網路安全防止詐騙的這些手段來講我們還離很遠但是我們要不要持續的來做這才是我們要做的刑事局站在你旁邊的刑事局都是跟著在後面捕破網最後就是一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3432.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3457.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這是來自Meta的廣告或者是這是來自這些平台的這些這些不實的內容造成這些詐騙的結果不是說台灣詐騙天堂是我們有沒有能力再規範這些廣告這些不實廣告這些詐騙簡訊的這些手段是 謝謝委員給我說明的機會那事實上在這一年來我們跟Meta這邊我們其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3459.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3465.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
從好幾個面向來做一個處理不是Meta我想我們納管的90%的你先處理啦 其他的好 針對Meta這個部分來講呢其實我們在科技技術上面來講的話呢也有一起來做努力包括說我們自己有發展這個AI的一個巡檢的技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3479.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3503.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
當我們巡檢到相關的一個這個詐騙的廣告的時候要求Meta下架之外我們要求他把我們的這樣的一個詐騙的樣態作為他們自己在做AI演算的時候呢可以去事先的去做一個巡檢去下架事實上這樣的一個詐騙那你有沒有這個你剛剛講得很好我也希望你有已經有實際上他已經下架的這些數據有多少呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3505.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3531.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
是根據我們跟他們的了解過去他們大概在這一年下架的這個件數大概超過430萬則你認為這是正確的嗎我另外舉一個例子給你聽路透社的報導說Meta最少有10%的營收也就是台幣可能接近5000億是來自平台上投放詐騙廣告的收入那 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3535.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3561.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
還是Meta到現在到目前為止喔他還是沒有辦法提供相關的數據如同Meta針對這個劍橋大學的這個教授的指控他到最後還是沒有辦法提出他到底有多少這個教授的個人資料他到底收集了多少數據也就是說他其實還是不會跟政府老老實實的說明他到底有多少這些詐騙廣告的收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3562.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3578.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
或者是我們要有更多的武器才可以針對它我想這個是我們要繼續跟Meta來研究的地方要繼續做這些網路控管的地方好的 我們其實一直都有跟他們加強的聯繫不夠啦 不夠啦當然恩威並施不夠啦 謝謝我們會再努力請局長局長現在剛剛這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3585.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3608.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
副署長也講得很清楚大部分來自Meta的這些詐騙訊息或者是平台的這些不實的廣告警政署其實我上次跟你質詢的內容裡面也包含這些地下的放貸的組織他們其實一個集團扮演的多個角色對同樣一組人做 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3608.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3628.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
大量的資訊的借款的資訊的投放那有ABCDE分別這樣子同一個集團可以讓一個人分別簽了四五十張簽了四五十張的這個本票那其實這些源頭你也知道但是後續的這些協助被害人的這些行為也希望刑事局這邊還可以繼續加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3630.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3652.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個沒有問題我們對這些呢就是一連串的這些詐騙行為包括就是後續的這些不管是抵押不動產或者是去解除這個受刑的這個定存的部分我們都會做全力的來查緝包括你剛剛委員所提的這些詐騙集團後續的這個地下錢莊這個部分我們都全力查緝的好謝謝辛苦謝謝謝謝感謝李博弈這屬我們家張志倫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3665.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3670.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員早有請內政部劉部長跟警政署張署長請保重請署長張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3677.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3698.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
張委員長謝謝部長跟署長我想要先請教在今年的2月的時候有頒布了一個新的命令有關於警察的輪休制度特別要求警察人員的休假天數要完全的比照行政院人事總署的公務人員辦公日曆表這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3700.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3725.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那這個規定讓基層警員炸鍋為什麼呢因為大家都知道現在一般公務員跟我們的警察員都非常的辛苦可是一般公務員他是週休二日以及見紅就休國定假日就休假可是警察的輪休是日夜顛倒所以我們常說警察是日夜顛倒風吹日晒非常的辛苦可是現在居然要求兩邊的休假天數要一模一樣可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3725.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3753.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
就在天數一模一樣沒有辦法達到同樣的休假的效果這是不公平的比較那所以我要想要請教署長跟部長你認為你們現在頒布這個命令要求警察要完全比照公務人員的休假尤其警察有時候是大夜班他們的輪休已經是非常的破碎式的輪休品質非常不好那請問部長跟署長你們知道現在基層警員的心聲跟他們的心都涼了一半的心聲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3755.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3779.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
謝謝委員 我想外勤的通常真的是非常辛苦因為他是採輪班制的他的上班當然就是跟一般的公務人員的上班的狀況不一樣就好像比如跟當在醫療機構相同比如大夜班隔天休假根本就是沒有辦法好好休假就是要補休睡覺因為這個是我們勤務的一個性質就是工作勤務的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3780.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3803.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那我們的這個輪休的這個中央每個禮拜也是要兩天的這個輪休兩日輪休那我們是依照這個我們值班輪休的一個要點來做一個實施以前就是照這個要點嘛那怎麼會大家上班完以後我請教署長大家上班完以後依照我們警察這個大家的頒布的規定輪休完以後居然到最後跟大家講說你要來補要還價 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3804.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3818.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
要把他的這個休假給扣掉這樣子的做法您的認同嗎我跟委員報告一下就是說我們當然就是以這個輪班制的方式那每天大概以8個小時必要可以延長2到4個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3820.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3844.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那我們也是有規範他連續要休息11個小時這個規範那我想就因為是警察工作的一個性質的情形就是沒有間斷我們也服務民眾也是二小時沒有做間斷這是工作的一個狀況所以那署長你認同你認同剛剛我們這樣討論的所以這個警察基層同仁照表上班啊可是上班到最後還說我放假太多叫我們要還價那 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3846.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3861.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
尤其有很多警察員加班的時數超過還會被檢討那甚至我聽到現在就是說還要這些基層警察同仁去填這個升薪假就是現在大家知道行政院有一個升薪假的規定叫他填升薪假 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3862.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3884.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
來去把這個放假比這個公務人員一般放假多一點點比如說多一兩天的就叫他去填這個身心價所以造成基層同仁覺得說我身心又沒有問題為什麼叫我填身心價我想所以署長你這邊是不是可以明確的來表示說你對這樣子的制度是不是應該要來檢討那我想就是要從各 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3885.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3905.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
各地區的這個特性來做彈性調整做規劃他的這個潛入有些就是他可能就剩上8個小時或或是10個小時就是一地區的特性來做一個一個規劃來做一個調整那我也希望就是說對於外景的同仁在於這個他的一個超時的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3907.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3934.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這個加班或者是他的這個給予如果說時間允許給予做這些補修我們都授權給各主觀來做一個彈性調整我想這個不是一個很硬式因為簡單工作本來就是20小時這個不確定性的那我想這個部分就是多照顧我們同仁的身心健康是不是拜託部長跟署長是不是給我一個承諾在三個月內來研議這種輪班的公務人員的休假的計算基數 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3935.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3958.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
是不是可以來來討論一個更合理的一個方式有機會嗎好那我們來三個月之內好不好就是千萬不要叫我們基層的員警就是照了政府照了這個警察我們大家講好的輪班制度以後還要需要再緩價這基層員警沒辦法接受好那第二個我想要請教署長的一個部分就是最近那個在昨天在 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3960.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3983.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
台北市政府的質詢裡面有提到說這個市警局現在所使用的酒測器跟酒測棒是這個中國製的這個一個狀況那當然在蔣安市長在回應跟這個台北市警察局長在詢答的時候他說這個是當時採用共同供應契約的採購案是由警政署來辦理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3984.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4006.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那所以這個應該來講這個問題到底我要想請教因為當時你還不是署長嘛可是我想要請教說那這樣子這個這樣子的爆料第一個是不是真實這真的是中國製的酒測器跟酒測棒嗎然後然後是不是有洗產地的問題那現在目前這樣的這個酒測器跟酒測棒是否還有在使用那未來關於這樣洗產地的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4007.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4027.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
檢證署如何處理以及現在到底有多少數量的這個酒測器跟酒測棒因為為什麼要去問這個問題因為這是違反當時的採購的這個合約裡面的規範嘛對不對好那請署長回答我就跟委員這個出貨報告這個就是共約的就是有共約是從109年才有這一些就是禁止使用中國製的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4029.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4034.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那酒測器的部分我們109年才有公佈說109年那他說這個是106年的採購案所以當時這個就是沒有做這樣的規範所以當時沒有做這樣的規範所以是烏龍爆料所以我這樣子啦就是我現在簡單講這個酒測器都有不是屬沒有統一採購不過109年以後才有規範那106年以前才買的那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4051.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4077.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那九二七使用的年紀只有五年現在就沒使用了所以現在這些東西也沒有在使用沒有就是一百零六年那個就沒有在因為他九二七的使用年紀是五年所以一零九年開始到現在目前這五年內的才會有所以一零九年就是有在公約上有禁止使用中國那我們現在在做清查如果說屬實的話我們就會依法來做一個處置那我特別提醒就是因為這九二七都由各縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4079.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4106.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
各縣市的地方政府的警察局來採 警務署沒有採過這樣的一個器材他們的採購是從公約裡面去做採購那公約從109年就有做這一個有關這個中國的一個製的這個產品的這個禁止的規定那我們現在這個案在做調查看實際這個狀況有沒有這個是真正有用這個中國製的這個產品的一個九色器好謝謝署長意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4107.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4131.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
如果是就是講109年以後應該是沒有這樣的問題啦那現在一般來講也沒有在使用的狀況如果發現現在地方警察局還有在使用的你們會盡早來做一個處理嗎盡早處理就禁止使用我們會再做一個處理好那最後我是不是可以請這個打詐中心的王執行長跟金管會的周祖密來最後一個問題委員好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4137.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4146.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們看到大家都對打詐非常的重視我們看到太子集團有個跨國詐騙集團把總部設在台北101吸金45億買了11棟豪宅29輛超跑等等這些問題銀行端對該集團其實有通報52次我們打詐國家隊到底如何反應請這邊是不是請打詐中心來回應第二個我要請教金管會的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4163.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4190.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我們認為政府對打詐對這些打詐的大鱷魚沒有辦法處理可是對小百姓窮追猛打這之前我也特別提出今晚會是不是對於這個有關於人民的帳戶於而第九位使用的無預警凍結早是這個很多人的這個帳戶沒辦法去做使用是不是對這兩個問題可以請你們說明一下跟委員報告有關於太子集團在台灣洗錢的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4191.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4218.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們分析其最大原因是他是利用人頭公司來進行犯罪然後在人頭公司來洗錢部分那至於在上個禮拜的時候那個政務委員有召開相關會議然後就是會針對公司的一些包括喬外資之後的最終收益人來進行研議看如何把最終收益人列在相關的法令另外的部分因為其實包括經濟部還有其他部會相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4219.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4233.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
就是資料庫的部分因為是沒有共用沒有就是沒有互相流通我們也是演演繹比如說這樣像比如說有人頭帳戶前科的告誡的資料可以讓經濟部來審查相關的公司的登記好謝謝那最後請經管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4237.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4266.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
現在對於一般民眾的帳戶你們到底是如何處理是不是都把餘額低跟未久使用的帳戶全部凍結是 委員好那個銀行這個凍結這個動作其實就是基於我們打大專法他會主動偵查有疑似可能受到詐騙的風險的可能但是如果全部凍結那確實是不符合比例原則這個部分我們都會請銀行一定要去第一個就是要要有精準的判斷第二個就是說要有給客戶一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4267.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4282.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
申訴的一個明確的窗口要迅速處理如何申訴銀行都會建立一個窗口就是專職的窗口去接受這樣相關的案件去申訴那如果申訴他銀行會再把他解控 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4282.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4304.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
如果說是有明確的理由的話那這個部分我們都會持續請銀行來優化他相關偵測疑似詐欺賬戶的一些做法因為本席收到很多的這個民眾陳情啊希望你們再好好來不要打詐打到一般無辜民眾 拜託一下 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張志倫委員 我們家黃姐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4313.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4318.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好 謝主席 我們先請法務部徐政次安家徐政次委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4323.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4345.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
好 徐政慈早安今天這個修法其實我相信其實不分黨派大家都已經有基本的共識了那其實大家都有提出版本那朝野其實差不多方向已經很一致那只是在技術上我在這邊請教兩個意見啦因為在證券版裡面有規定說這個被告是要在檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起六個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4346.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4363.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
就是要付全額然後才可以減輕其刑嘛那當然這個其實大家會覺得說這應該是一個好的方向因為說希望不論是這個詐騙集團的哪一個角色就算你是車手你也有這樣的責任要去把相關的金額負擔出來然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4364.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4385.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
要去保障這個被害人但是實務上我要請教的第一個就是說六個月到底夠不夠因為其實有一些委員的版本裡面把和解最後的時間點是放在第一審的言辭辯論終結前來達成調解那司法院的意見有提到說通常詐騙的案件第一審通常的辦案期間是兩年四個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4386.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4401.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
所以呢那有些人就是說啊這個對受害人來說太久了那所以這個時間點到底要定在哪裡會是一個比較好的時間點這個第一個請教證詞另外一個就是說如果六個月內時間太短了然後車手就是說我抽不出來那不然你關我好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4403.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4428.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那會不會最後說其實最後真的關到的就是這一些大家知道說最後就是車手出來擔那沒有辦法往上追或者是說這個錢最後又被脫產那被害人也拿不到錢然後車手也關了也關了但是最後這些詐騙集團的主謀都沒有辦法往上追這兩個技術的意見我希望你們可以再進一步的討論找出一個最好的可以實務上解決詐騙案件的這個方式好 簡單回應好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4433.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4459.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
謝謝委員我想這是一個寬點就是說在某些條件之下我們願意給他減輕期刑那這個寬點的寬跟窄就會牽涉到被害人多久可以拿到這些錢以前如果你沒有規定你說是延遲辯論還有一審延遲辯論跟二審那如果到二審一審的有人就不和解了他會等到二審的時候我再來和解你判我有罪我來和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4459.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4481.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以这个就会一直拖一直拉那你一审的辩论终结像刚才讲到有些案子他真的拖两年我们的被害人能等吗所以我们是抓跟司法院讨论的结果就是我们抓一个大家比较能够接受一般的案件侦查大概三个月审判三个月加起来大概是六个月希望在第一审的辩论终结以前就有一个结论 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4482.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4497.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以這個是我們抓六個月的時間當然它有可能少於一般簡單的案件就多於一般簡單案件可是少於複雜的案件但是我們是從裡面抓一個一般被害人可能可以比較快速的得到賠償的一個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4502.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4524.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我希望的是實務上真的要拿得到錢啦不要說到時候車手說我就是籌不出來然後被害人也說那就是我沒有辦法被保護然後錢也拿不到然後最後車手自己也沒辦法減刑然後結果最後一場空我比較怕是這樣那當然我覺得這個加配集團任何一份子當然都要用最嚴格的方式去處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4525.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4548.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
對啊所以我是希望到時候實務上看跟內政部可不可以再討論一下實務上有沒有可以更精進的技術上的可以處理的方式那法律上當然這樣定就這樣定下去沒有問題好謝謝鄭次那再來我們請訴發部請訴發部那個是負數位對產業署的副署長嗎小心 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4552.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4572.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
好副所長在這邊請教我剛剛其實提案的說明有提到說我希望增加兩個部分一個是廣告的透明化就是說在廣告的推播的參數上面他必須要揭露更多的資訊因為其實我知道說現在打架專法31條已經有基本的資訊包括說現在你剛說的九成以上的meta |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4573.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4586.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
然後其實TikTok然後Google YouTube LINE這些平台都必須要有基本它是廣告就要有刊登者出資者這一些基本的資料但我希望接下來是包括說它的一些參數設定廣告刊登的時間然後這個廣告沒有違反過相關的規定然後觸及的人數等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4592.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4618.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
都可以相關提供一個廣告庫那另外一個就是要杜絕這些剛剛其實有委員提到灰色廣告的部分就是他就是假推薦真詐騙假推薦真詐騙這種其實非常多而且是一個非常主要的詐騙的類型他就是說他就是一些專家教你要投顧然後在網路上有各式各樣這種你就是加入我們的群組然後用一些小網紅然後讓你 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4620.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4623.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
說你就是加入我們那最後你錢騙到手了那最後他們是沒有辦法被你們規範在所謂的詐騙廣告裡面的是因為他們的這個跟詐騙集團的關係是那個網紅本身是這一些是這個財經專家本身而不是廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4638.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4642.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以會變成說他是假假網紅之名他就是真業配那其實內容都是詐騙這些就沒有辦法在你們目前的規範裡面可是我看到書發布的意見卻認為說這個你們不想管是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4655.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4671.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
報告委員這個其實不是不想管啦我想其實我們管理的是網路廣告平台業那剛剛其實委員提到的這個部分的廣告的管理其實事實上目前已經也有公平交易法相關的規範可以去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4671.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4686.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那另外呢其實事實上我們的網路我們有做了一個網路通報查詢網針對於民眾所通報的不管是詐騙的廣告或者是訊息我們事實上都可以要求這個網路廣告平台業者去進行下架可是像我剛剛說的這種類型是 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4689.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4711.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
假業配真詐騙的這種類型並沒有規範進去那這種灰色廣告現在其實是詐騙手法非常主流的一種方式那你們的方式其實就是在告訴詐騙集團說你不要付錢給平台你付錢給這些網紅就好因為你的廣告費不是給平台可是給這些網紅他一樣可以刊登啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4713.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4735.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
然後看燈丸其實因為這些平台他們的紅利就是來自於使用者的數據流量可是現在他們換一種方式去規避你們的廣告揭露就好了耶事實上我們的這個詐騙的就是打詐專法的第33條針對於不實的訊息也是可以去要求他們來進行下架的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4736.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4756.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以我其實在我有提我自己的修法的版本那我希望說訴法部就是就我以上的意見可以把它納入法律的規範裡面我們來研究一下因為我其實看過你們的報告啦你們給我的回覆我非常的不滿意因為等於是你們看起來完全沒有意願要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4758.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4774.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
而且非常的消極甚至是我提到這個廣告庫的部分你們是告訴我什麼你們是跟我說就是說這個不是你們的責任啊然後看起來是都是認為說就是接下來都是丟給警察就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4774.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4801.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
不是事實上委員沒有啊就我看到報告的我的感覺是這樣啊你們聽起來就是覺得說剩下都是後端的事情都是警察要不要處理如果他要處理他就想辦法跟這些平台業者去調數據去調閱這些相關的資料就好那你們不想要從頭來管理這些平台揭露的責任委員不是這樣子的我想其實因為當初在這個打炸專法裡面其實我們規範的是網路廣告平台業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4802.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4829.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
確實是有對價關係但是呢對於這個沒有對價關係的不實訊息事實上在第33條還是有去進行處理的我們還是可以依照就是說當這個詐騙的訊息是確定的我們還是可以要求網路廣告平台業者去進行下架我們可以看到說近一年來事實上詐騙的廣告真的已經是大幅的下降但是因為詐騙的集團他其實事實上就像那個變形蟲一樣他可能就會從線上 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4831.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4855.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
变成线下来进行这个民众的一个诈骗所以有关这个部分来讲的话我们目前其实事实上不管是在这个通报下架之外呢我们也一直不断的去这个教导民众要如何去试架你觉得社群广告的社群媒体中的广告更透明化有没有助于诈骗的防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4855.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4866.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我想透明化絕對是有助於這個是嗎所以這個是我們的目標那現在其實歐盟都已經有相關的法律規範了為什麼歐盟做得到我們做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4867.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4884.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
委員我想我們只是針對說委員這邊提到說這個資料庫可能需要去對 所以為什麼歐盟做得到我們做不到因為我們也是希望說詐騙的廣告應該是即時下架不要讓民眾長時間的去接觸這個不會出現在使用者的動態頁面上面你是不是沒有看你有看懂歐盟的做法嗎這個不是說讓這些廣告繼續放著讓使用者看 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4895.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4905.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
是好啦時間已經到了但我現在我覺得現在書書發布很顯然還是搞不清楚狀況你們先研究一下歐盟的做法我們就是希望跟歐盟比較辦理就這麼簡單就這麼簡單好謝謝副所長謝謝我們感謝黃建武委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4930.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4932.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好我們請汪媒會召委主席我們請金融他就請塔杜瓦蘇發部委好請蘇發部的黃副署長然後金融監管會的周祖密老闆 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4959.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4963.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
在這本市要先幫你探討一下我們的Meta 剛才有幾個委員所說的差不多方便的 都差不多在我們裡面的啦中間97% 說實在的 那怕死人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4978.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4983.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
尤其那個過程當中 不管是要到處也好還是要交朋友也好 這些都是在我們這個地方興奮所以你剛才有說 它就變形變色融 越變越厚 越變越厚但是是不是在你們事務部裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5001.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5005.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所做的,我們也是因為詐騙集團很多跟森林林的這個司法部的,要怎樣去截止被騙的人這才是最重要的,大家應該也知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5020.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5024.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這邊的越來越聰明越來越延伸出來越多項的檔篇但是在司法部裡面學生的感覺跟我們民意代表覺得沒什麼作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5038.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5061.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
其實跟委員這邊來說明一下事實上在速發部這邊主要是針對這個數位經濟的產業的這個部分我們從源頭來做一個阻斷所以其實除了剛剛講的網路廣告平台業之外事實上我們對於電商產業的這個部分早期電商有很多的個資外洩會被詐騙現在也已經下降了 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5061.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5063.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對啦,我現在是跟你說,什麼時候做的,我們也要主任說,我比這邊集團還要厲害,我的事劃部的成立就是要超越 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5077.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5081.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
詐騙集團 所想的方法 被審的才對啦跟你說 啊 以前我們做什麼 加了多少次啊說實在 這對我們喔 現在都沒辦法啦我們也趕快去研議 超前部署你說什麼 隨便你 隨便報案的那你們都知道啊 到現在的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5105.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5110.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
不然覺得有因素發佈有做什麼有出來 有啦這樣好 來 待會跟你們有所作為有做得不錯 拜託恢復到一個月後給我好 沒有問題來 我請問經管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5124.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5131.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
在這裏面 我要跟你談到的就是在本省的服務處常常接觸 配適你如果聽不懂我講台語的時候你可以再問幾次沒關係 大家互相因為我看你剛才這樣罵頭尖尖 我怕你聽不懂我現在的意思是要跟你說 我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5151.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5156.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
帳號不管是在郵局在哪一間銀行有顯示出來的時候我們就他的帳號不能用了嘛郵局在郵局的時候半天你如果沒出入他就來你借錢他又不是本事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5170.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5177.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就是覺得你們的法案這個柯子的詐騙集團騙人的帳號這本來就要處理這我不會覺得怎麼樣是你們的起訴無辜賠償的帳號給你們證實覺得這有異常啦尤其你知道嗎有的弱勢的根本他就沒有錢跟他的帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5199.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5205.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
跟台灣男人一起破壞而已跟你們小孩說有問題跟他們一起不可以而已跟他們是要買政權的跟他們現在一天沒辦法去拿沒辦法去買政權回來買 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5216.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5221.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
跟他的同調 儘管的資格這延伸出來 我驚訝 你知道嗎你如果看到 你的通報警示喔181年 到182年 到183年到184年的1月到4月說實在 你如果看到無辜的給你們解除的警示有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5246.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5250.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
跟你們要怎麼做 跟你們有什麼問題 跟你們要不要了解要不要去問 跟你們直接去警示 去動態這對無辜的人 生活有困難的人 這非常嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5262.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5268.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
你們是不是要去那麼準確去凍結他的帳號才對有的公司很弱勢的時候 他們去銀行問去銀行做什麼銀行都說 跟你這個帳號有問題啦 還要等地檢署判決啦跟你沒有起訴的時候 你再去銀行處理啦但是這幾個月 要叫他怎麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5292.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5310.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
是委員的那個指示我們一定會再去跟更勤銀行優化相關處理機制但是我這邊報告就是兩個方向一個就是說剛才可是銀行自己主動偵測疑似涉詐的帳號他會做部分的控管並不會凍結所有的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5311.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5323.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那這個部分我們剛才前一位委員有類似的質詢那我們大概就是說請銀行要更優化他的相關的判斷的模型跟模式我現在就是要說銀行都沒有做這個動作啦都覺得我方便就好啊正式出來的時候又來動在後面啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5329.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5347.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那另外一個部分這剛才講的第一個部分是銀行主動偵測第二部分是警示賬戶警示賬戶是來自於司法警察機關他的提供所以這個部分警示賬戶變成說他如果要解除的話要司法警察機關再去通知銀行來解除這就是有問題的那些嘛還有有做到這個嘛如果是有發生真的很無奈讓銀行覺得有問題的時候當場的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5359.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5368.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個部分因為銀行還是處於一個就整個機制來講他還是處於一個被動通知來處理的一個角色這個其實怎麼去照顧到這些比較真的是弱勢的群眾我們會再來跟警政單位來做一個溝通跟討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5389.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5391.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我認為你們要去 你剛才說的 聽起來覺得說孩子如果有問題 跟他動態 如果你們有意見 你去跟孩子說孩子就來接觸 我要跟你們報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5404.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5420.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
因為如果是警示帳戶的話銀行就沒有辦法主動幫他解除如果是銀行自己偵測控管的話就可以所以這部分我們會再來看看怎麼我現在是要說說銀行當然有問題我們尊重司法怎麼去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5424.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5425.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
因為詐騙集團的帳戶借的還是人頭的這我們百分之一百這一定要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5447.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5449.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
嚴若我講的就是無辜那一家啦在這我要說咱的詐騙集團越來越嚴重了我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5459.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5463.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
2023年 聯邦銀行提高額度 提款額度並解除控管 但是我們沒有審核協助詐騙集團去拿錢出來但是在2023年 中國信託 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5481.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5488.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
他的行為提供他的帳戶領域 方便詐騙集團設置再來二公二十年 已經有某一個副理涉嫌也幫詐騙集團設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5503.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5509.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
以前的喔 再來更恐怖的就是2005年台灣藝人兩個行員合作詐騙集團設置啦 結果在這個過程當中大家都以為台灣藝人是我們國家的耶 結果發生之後的時候你們看他所發的 加發一個2200萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5533.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5544.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
他這個三季收攤的錢250多億啦這樣說實在應該不會做壞事啦是跟委員報告因為我們是針對銀行的內控跟管理來做裁罰所以裁罰的主體是銀行 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5553.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5564.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那針對涉案當事人他們會有受到相關刑事民事的罰嗎我現在就是要跟你們說 金管會你們所有的銀行 白色也最新銀行跟你們裡面的銀行在那裡設置 要找新人嗎說實在 台灣銀行不是普通的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5575.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5578.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
台灣人是要印中華民國台灣的字做這個事情 我說不管是什麼你們政府要去研議一個附帶的制令 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5590.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5594.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
像大叔也騙人賣房子賣地這也要附帶大叔那間花園的一年也要來看不然我說實在像這個看這個沒感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5609.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5612.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
跟未來 我說你們的金管會書啊 部委家我們的詐騙集團的車手 要再去捏錢你們要怎麼省錢 讓他們捏錢沒那麼方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5625.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5629.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
像ATM 裡面要捐贈的時候你們是不是可以做得更正確讓車手要捐贈的時候批准積分也好 他的臉孔辨識也好可以再給他 沒這麼方便啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5645.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5650.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
是不是我們應該要這樣做 沒說實在的 詐騙集團最方便的就是ATM去捏紙 又騙騙的 跟我來捏沒兩分鐘 所有錢就捏了所以你們在這個關卡之中 要想什麼方法去處理所以司法部跟金融的家 我們不是說要責怪你們什麼 我覺得你們有這個能力 還可以做得好 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5675.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5681.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
謝謝委員好謝謝王美惠召委再來謝謝再來我們請張宏祿委員我請先請這個內政部長跟抒發部副署長加劉部長加抒發部副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5709.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5733.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
委員好這個這個速發部我先請問一下現在很多AI甲的影片這個詐騙已經不只是騙錢了也騙國人的健康了這個裡面用很多名人或什麼的這樣子然後包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5736.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5753.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
不到賣藥但是就有很多什麼健康什麼的這個那你們有沒有注意到這些情況報告委員有的是有有什麼處置針對這個部分來講的話我剛剛其實提到說我們有AI的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5757.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5784.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
技術來做這個自動巡檢然後如果我們有發現的時候會先請這個衛福部幫我們確認說這個是不是詐騙的這個廣告然後比如說他是詐騙的醫生或者詐騙的這個藥事相關的違反相用法令的規範的時候呢就會要求我們的網路廣告平台業者去下架並且把這樣子的一個樣態請網路廣告平台業者自動自行的去做巡檢下架那你們下架了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5785.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5804.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
有要求下架的多少有没有要求下架成功过我们目前来讲已经要求下架有超过23万则的诈骗广告但是我没有办法去区分说是医疗或者是投资对 我们也要求这样我觉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5808.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5831.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個很多的數位平台或什麼這些政府不是沒有公權力去對付它只是政府的公權力沒有明顯的展現我真的覺得這個部分速發部還有各個相關的你們要拿出鐵腕政策不然我們再怎麼修法再怎麼樣你們不執行也沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5832.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5849.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因為我們很認真在執行我跟你講你們很認真執行是你們自我感覺良好啦民眾沒有感覺你們的很多啦我必須要這樣子講我們繼續努力那我為什麼會請這個劉部長部長你們會不會擔心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5854.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5866.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
有一天我們現在都在宣傳反詐騙有一天可能我們警政相關單位的人也會被用AI去製造假影片用反詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5871.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5896.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
用反詐騙去變成真詐騙你們會不會擔心擔心是不太能夠把事情處理好我們知道一定有這個方向因為我們現在有在加強科技偵查的部分AI如果有這種反反詐騙的訊息影片出來的話我們的科技偵查會先抓出來這個要點然後要做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5898.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5913.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
部長 這個用反詐騙去偵查騙它的樣態是會有非常多會有非常多的我覺得我們現在包括警政署包括什麼它現在這個廣告用實例的我一直稱讚覺得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5914.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5931.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我覺得這個部分我們也可以先打預防針錢都在那邊了我們有這些廣告的投放量部長你覺得有沒有需要先打預防針要先跟所有的民眾講只要有冒充警政高層甚至部長的這一種的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5936.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5951.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
如果他用反詐騙的然後去行徵詐騙的要先提醒民眾要預防你覺得有沒有必要謝謝委員的關心我想委員非常清楚我們以前這個打詐釋法還沒出來之前很多人是冒用名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5952.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5969.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
名人推荐投资现在还有现在还有很多但是这个部分在我们的这个打诈司法过了以后其实我们就是捡紧调一起来努力那未来如果AI包括说您提到了也许有生卫的影片也会出来的话我们也会提前来预防 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5971.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5986.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
先講說不太可能就好像說最近我也看到就是這個台積電的這個創辦人張忠謀先生他也對外講說他從來不會有臉書這樣一句話就已經把所有的這些所謂的詐騙用他的名字要來做這個詐騙的行為的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5987.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6001.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
就講完了但是大家都知道這個道高一尺謀高一丈還是會有人繼續做所以我們在網路的巡檢上面的我們的警政系統其實是非常認真在巡檢希望能夠把假的訊息或者是這種詐騙的這個影片能夠及早把它下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6005.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6021.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那部長你們警政署有推一個民眾檢舉車手獎勵有這個政策那有沒有想過民眾如果檢舉像這種AI詐騙或什麼這一種的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6022.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6038.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
也要不要也給民眾一些獎勵那要立法院支持這個獎勵金要拜託立法院支持因為我們現在獎勵金額是很多企業集團在捐款的那目前獎勵的金額大概會有一定程度啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6039.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6064.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
武藤先生你要獎勵五萬塊有人願意檢舉那獎勵五千塊大概不會有人要檢舉啦所以我們會來討論我覺得可以討論我覺得像不一樣我覺得可能如果真的要全民防詐啊你們有好的政策我們立法院一定支持啊對不對尤其是預算麻煩一下一定支持啊好那再來啦齁這個啊我可能請警政署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6065.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6091.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那個署長我發現有越來越多這種詐騙集團他不管是車手不管或人頭或什麼的他開始找很多弱勢 聾啞人士街友什麼的這些當人頭你們有沒有發現這個問題有 我們對於這個詐騙集團他找的車手他就是不斷在演變我們有發現到這些會對這個弱勢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6093.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6109.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那我想就是對於弱勢的這些的狀況我們大概就是當然就是從源頭也要是去做對於他們這一些的社福的這個團體或者就去這方面的一個加強的宣導這第一個那第二個我們當然要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6110.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6128.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
查解的他的這個源頭也就是說他車手之後他的源頭到底是誰在運用這些弱勢的這個狀況那我想就是做源頭跟查解的部分來做處理這個都是你講的方法你們實際做了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6130.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6150.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我想這個部分我在做細緻的這個統計車手的這個部分到目前為止就是114年大概有朝有3萬353人這樣的一個這個狀況那有關弱勢的部分我們可能就是會後看是不是把它分析出來再提供給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6153.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6171.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我問你這個我不是要求數據署長有一個問題我認為你現在要及早處理他除了我剛講的什麼芒芽人是什麼這些之外他們已經把手伸到低收入戶去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6172.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6195.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
尤其很多低收入戶可能是年紀很大或什麼不知道他用另外一個他也是有可能去詐騙他而取得他的人頭帳戶他也不是本身願意的那如果低收入戶變這樣子我跟你講他有可能他的銀行被凍結被什麼他連補助比什麼他都領不到喔這個是未來我認為會很嚴重的問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6197.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6216.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以署長我認為這個你們要及早處理你們要跟所有社福黨或什麼你們要及早去處理這個問題不然你會衍生出非常多的社會問題署長你我們有發現就是這些弱勢的就是他有可能是被愛人 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6217.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6227.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
也可能就是不是啦這個都知道嘛你們現在有什麼具體的做法我想我的做法就是會從這一個我們的他的主政單位去了解他整個的狀況就是他的社福團體或者是他的就業服務的這個主管機關我們來就圓妥的去做去做這樣的一個宣導這種情形再來就是當然就是要偵查嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6247.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6265.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
就是兩個部分一個從源頭來處理一個就是從偵查來做一個處理署長我覺得你剛剛的這個回答你已經了解了問題但聽不出來有什麼具體的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6267.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6291.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我覺得你已經發現了這個問題你跟社政跟其他單位什麼源頭什麼的我覺得我們要跟全國人講我們政府的具體作為是什麼我覺得這樣人家才有一個依循對不對這不是說你現在就馬上要怎麼樣我覺得給你三個月的時間你們去研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6292.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6319.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
看要去如何處理你也可以跟社政單位你只要每個月要來領錢要來什麼的我就給你一個單子前幾個我就給你一個單子現在有什麼絕對不要怎麼樣甚至在銀行發錢的時候你上面就給他寫我覺得有很多方式我覺得給你們時間你們去研究看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6322.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6325.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
謝謝主席我們請劉思芳劉部長請保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6352.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6372.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
部長好 部長你有沒有被騙過你有沒有被詐騙過沒有 因為我比較簡約所以很少很謹慎很謹慎 但是常常看到很多詐騙所以什麼都沒有被騙過也沒有看過廣告然後所以下單買來的東西寄回來跟你不一樣我比較不會 任何一種類型都沒有我比較不會心動 電話也沒有我都沒有 沒有什麼心動 對哇 這部長你真的是一個非常簡約的人但我本人就被騙過啊而且還被騙過不只一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6378.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6386.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我第一次被騙的時候就在超商2020年然後呢就是有一個包裹然後就叫我去7-11就取貨那我當然坦白講我們有時候比較忙我們可能請秘書去幫忙請 領令那秘書也不知道我買什麼他就反正就把包裹領回來一打開以後我說這怎麼我怎麼可能會買這種東西呢這種質詢台上我不想把它說出來好 總而言之我非常生氣說我就去網路查然後說遇到詐騙包裹要怎麼辦你猜網路上叫我說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6409.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6423.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
報警找當地的立法委員我很生氣所以我立刻就跟警政署內政部一直盧就覺得說連我立法委員都會收到這種詐騙包裹那到底要怎麼辦呢那時間是2020年 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6425.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6430.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好 我們非常高興在2022年的時候政府部門內政部檢政署跟大家終於推出了跟超商物流業者推出了這樣的一個機制就是詐騙包裹處理機制也就是說呢一 你看到危險的包裹你可以不用去領直接當然這個大家現在比較有意識了 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6443.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6456.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
第二你如果真的還是領了的話那你在七天之內你可以去申請退貨有保留證據然後申請退款好不幸的我在今年呢其實又遇到了同樣的狀況我依然請秘書去領然後依然打開以後還是這是詐騙對他真的就是你是同一個秘書去領嗎同一個秘書去領對有一點那我們會跟這個秘書多溝通一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6467.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6472.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
本來這個就是因為已經四年了嘛所以他可能已經忘記了這樣好可是這一次因為有這個機制我們非常滿意1200就這樣拿回來了連我本人都非常非常的滿意在第二個禮拜我又收到包裹這一次我學乖了我們不會去領了因為我們就很清楚的發現這類的包裹上面雖然寫著名字可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6488.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6512.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
寄贱人的地方他都刚好会有一个什么危险物品啊小心轻放啊等等刚好贴在寄贱人的部分把它遮住不会很清楚所以你也很难处理你也很难退钱又不太多所以你就会觉得与其这么麻烦不如就吞了吧但非常感谢有成立了这样一个机制所以我觉得其实面对诈骗这种事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6513.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6520.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
防不勝防政府要做的第一件事情就是讓詐騙的資訊可以減少讓我們一般人去接觸這種資訊的機會可以變少這是第一件事情第二件事情就是真的如果不幸碰到這樣的狀況的話那政府提供了一個機制讓我被詐騙到的錢有機會可以回來坦白講比抓到他更令我高興啦那個一千二回來我的心情真的是很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6540.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6557.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以我將心比心從一個一般人民的角度來看政府最應該做的是這樣的事情不知道你同意吧是 非常同意非常同意嗎立法委員都這樣跟你說了誠摯的分享我的心情了也非常謝謝委員的對 所以我們那時候成立了這個機制我覺得真的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6558.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6560.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那我們就來看我們現在還可以在做什麼我們在這個2023年的時候其實我們這樣已經打造司法這樣打造專法上路也已經超過一年了可是當時在第58條的時候有說一些特定的機制因為還需要溝通所以還暫緩實施嘛那部長我想請問一下那這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6579.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6601.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
打詐專法的這些特定的狀況其實跟剛剛在說的減少詐騙的資訊被看見讓人民接觸的機會減少他接觸的機會非常非常的有關因為你看情節重大有關流量管制停止解析限制接取措施等等這些就是讓這種一夜市的詐騙廣告我可以給他限流我可以給他撤銷的這種機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6604.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6618.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
坦白講因為已經一年了都還沒有可以實施部長可不可以告訴我們大家問題是什麼報告委員我剛剛在報告的時候其實已經有報告過只是說我們停止這些解析或者限制接取的數量不夠多 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6619.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6638.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
也就是說我們的警政單位他是要依法來處理那如果有這樣報案確定成立的時候就會處理像我們剛剛在口頭報告也有跟委員報告過有多少間次但是間次不夠多也就是說我們提到了包括有人在反映像Meta也好 Google也好他們的廣告量真的是無限的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6639.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6655.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以我們不可能說看到Meta或看到Google不能說看到黑影就開槍我想這樣不好所以我們會跟委員講的部分就是會針對不管是情節重大的部分的規範或者是停止解析跟限制接取我們還會持續努力但是也要跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6656.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6672.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
詐欺犯罪違法條例不能只有這個條例包括數位管理的平台包括資通安全的管理如果這三個的法律案如果能夠告訴我們可以更加規範清楚的話那警政機關就能夠根據法律的規範可以大力來取締這些詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6674.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6684.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我完全同意所以我們現在第一大家會覺得說你是不是專法有這個部分還沒有上路所以你沒有辦法執行讓我減低所以今天就是藉著這個機會讓部長再次的表示但就算我們能夠理解你的狀況我們還是希望這個量可以取締得更多更好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6694.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6702.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
這是第一個部分好 那但是第二個部分的話我們在討論今天要修法的部分的話其實我的見解就是回到剛剛跟部長說明一開始說的對於減少詐騙資訊是一件事情但是可以返還被詐騙的金額這對被害者來講其實是更重要的狀況所以今天在修法的當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6716.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6735.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我本人也提出的版本其實就是著重在這一塊我們之前的版本出現本來是希望可以讓大家吐實讓案情可以繼續追蹤但卻發生了一個漏洞嘛所以在追返金額的這個部分修法的部分部長你可以跟我們解釋一下這一次修法的部分跟追返金額的部分有沒有哪一些法條是相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6737.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6763.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好非常謝謝委員的關心我想各個委員幾乎都非常關心就是說剛剛也特別提到跟我們現在民眾他的如果被盜用或是交易糾紛或者是沒有實際交付他人使用的這個帳號能不能比較簡化他的流程讓他可以再重新使用那這個部分呢我們會把它變成說究竟向戶籍地或者是公司所在地的警察分局來申請查處如果查明屬實 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6764.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6786.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
不用等待司法終結的審判就可以解除那這個在民定三番詐騙的善意第三人案件可以進行解除的部分的話會兼顧到我們在防詐的政策跟人權保障上面那這個部分呢也要謝謝委員能夠多支持我想這個可能是未來我們要走那個方向就是大家都看到很多如果你是警示賬戶那麼多的狀況之下希望能夠趕快解除但是呢我們第一線的同仁他來告訴我的部分是這樣子就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6792.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6811.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
他去警察局報案的時候他描述不清楚他就丟一個帳號說我這是警示帳號你幫我解除但是我們的警察同仁問他說那你當時在為什麼被列為警示帳號能不能提供更正確的資訊讓警察人員來協助你那這個部分我想我們未來會多做宣導跟溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6812.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6834.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好那我個人除了贊同部長你現在說的這個部分的話其實在第47條的前段規定過去是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自判如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得減輕其刑是因的這個部分那我認為這一次我們在修法把它改成得減刑我覺得這個非常好我自己提出的版本也是如此因為我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6835.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6842.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
不能夠讓他假借說我都沒有所得就原例變成說一定可以減刑這個我覺得是不恰當的在實務經過了這樣一年之後這個地方一定要改但我也更同意就是包括了部內現在提出行政院現在提出的新版本當中包含了一個新增條件就是被告在自首或自白後必須在六個月內與被害人達成和解或調解金額並全部支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6861.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6868.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
才能適用減刑或免刑我覺得這部分其實是很好的因為就是增加了加速填補損害這樣的狀況是 這個是我們跟司法院那個溝通以後確定下來的草案所以這個地方也是民眾一般都在反映的啦那最後最後啦再給我30秒的時間啦我想講一件事情再請部長甚至是訴發部不用上來了啦再爭取時間參考一下就是說我們現在也有很多的詐騙是涉及虛擬資產的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6891.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6895.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那虛擬資產的部分其實大家可以看到其實非常多的平台其實都是境外平台那我簡單講 本來可以講很長就是我們在2025年9月的時候金管會的最新公告的部分剛剛應該是金管會 對不起 我說錯了有18家未完成洗錢登記然後我們裁罰了6家的VSP裡面竟然有5家是在9月的時候就被金管會列入不得再提供虛擬資產服務的業者這實在是蠻荒謬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6919.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6924.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
就是我裁罰的六家裡面五家是說已經不得再提醒也就是說你一邊裁罰他不能來做這件事情了但他還是一直做所以你才去罰他金管會啦金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6935.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6950.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
好所以我具體的建議啦我具體的建議是不是可以考慮像這個NCC在有國際來電的時候會在通話前有這個語音示警的狀況說這是國際電話請注意小心詐騙那我們是不是有機會在這種網路上面我們連進去的時候他就是可以加一個警語你即將連線的是高詐騙風險網域請小心我覺得這是技術上是可行的啦你只要回答方向不贊成技術我們可以再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6967.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6992.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
是贊成另外簡單跟委員報告一下那個裁罰部分是因為他在提供服務的時候經過我們的檢查發現有缺失一律裁罰至於登記是因為在9月底之前沒有完成相關的法令程序所以包括內訌制度沒有達一個標準所以不允許他登記所以兩件事情是一個在之前一個在之後好我想這部分比較複雜你這個部分直接交報告到我們辦公室來繼續討論麻煩你謝謝也謝謝部長謝謝恭喜你都沒有被騙過 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6995.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6998.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
謝謝 感謝蘇曉慧委員 吳宗憲委員謝謝 麻煩部長還有市長還有內政部長請部長跟市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7023.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7037.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝兩位我想我們今天討論的是炸房條例那我想我想要提一個重點就是其實一直以來我一直主張一個很重要的點就是人民只在乎錢拿不拿的回來其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7038.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7055.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
被告被判多久其實不是他們那麼在乎他們只希望我錢趕快回來所以我想我還是把一個焦點要重視在我們法治的設計有沒有辦法盡量讓被害人的損失能夠被填補所以我這次看完就是院部送來的整部草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7056.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7074.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
雖然是利益良善我先說利益良善各位的好意我都有接受到但是因為我實務出身的我還是有一些想法我覺得如果法案這樣過可能會有一個人民沒有辦法接受的結果我先講第一個可能的結果是詐騙集團的高層拿錢換自由第二個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7075.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7100.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
一毛錢有可能會被害連一毛錢都拿不到的狀況第三個還要全民養這些詐欺犯我先趕快簡單講草案的46條跟47條規定這個六個月內自白或自首期六個月內全額那個賠清這個可以減刑那聽起來好像嚴格但是呢從被害人的角度來看這個會不會是圖利有錢能放棄底層犯會有這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7101.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7123.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那還有就是你想啦六個月內能夠拿出一大筆錢來賠完的這個大概都是高層才做得到因為我看到依據法務部你們的犯罪狀況分析還有民間司改會的研究大部分去賣賬戶出租賬戶的都是經濟弱勢所以他們不太可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7123.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7149.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
在六個月內他有辦法拿到這個有辦法去把這個賠光那我們訂了一個這個六個月的期限在那裡會不會讓他們覺得說反正我六個月也賠不完算了那我就牢底坐穿就好會不會有這個狀況發生反而讓被害人拿不到錢這個是我的擔心尤其是過往我們看到很多實務上面的案例他趕快和解簽一簽然後付一兩期檢察官結案了然後他後面就不付 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7150.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7167.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
實務上常發生但是學者可能有時候會忽略掉這一塊所以我跟兩位報告有這個狀況所以今天訂了一個六個月內的全額清償這個硬性的門檻會不會讓底層的被告認為反正我六個月也賠不完我乾脆就算了不賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7168.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7185.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那反而有一些被害人如果今天這個被告在接下來的一年兩年內他可以慢慢分期償還他卻因為我們訂了這個硬性的規定而他拿不到這個是我想到的很重大的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7186.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7208.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
你們也不要覺得說每個人都一定不想賠錢有的人犯錯他確實想要補償這個被害人他會願意花一年兩年的時間慢慢去賠這個錢所以待會我會有我自己的一個建議看這個文字的部分可不可以再加以修改那第二個我還想要講一個很重要的點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7210.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7220.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們不希望說大量的人一直都全部都一直關我們只以關人為唯一的一個解決方式然後讓監獄人滿為患目前詐欺犯戰獸行人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7226.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7242.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
20.8%所以算是非常非常的高那我們希望不要讓你只要今天一犯罪就進去關就好我反而更希望是他們有沒有機會在我們國家的要求之下他賺錢趕快賠給這些被害人那當然如果你不賠我就把你抓去關請說次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7245.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7274.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的說會不會是他有想要分期付款那你這個是不是阻斷他我想六個月的時間是經過我們大概實務上看法是一般的案件大概偵查三個月審判三個月抓這個數字那以前我們操作的結果我們讓他分期付款真的他一期二期等到判決以後他就不還那會造成被害人第二次的傷害所以我覺得這種分期付款的方式是不太可靠 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7274.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7289.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們這裡很重要一點是他是調解跟和解的全部金額所以不見得被害人需要全部賠償沒有我待會會說我的建議文字部分你們可以參考一下那在監所的部分的話我們這裡監所在他要假釋的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7290.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7310.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
他這個賠償被害的也是一個一個基準之一所以這個都是有助於他來賠償因為他在監所內我剛剛講了大部分的因為貴部的報告也是大部分都是屬於經濟弱勢的人他在監獄裡面做事情一天才幾百塊一個月勞作金幾百塊賠不了被害人所以我們今天會不會是國家的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7311.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7336.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
善意的運作善意的對他的刑罰我們希望為這個國家社會安全好而把他抓去關但是反而讓被害人賠不到錢這是我擔心的點從事務的角度出發但是我沒有說這些人不該嚴懲這些人本來就要嚴懲還有我不希望說就好像是說這個病人急救要超過60分鐘太久了我趕快翻床褥所以我就不救我還是希望有機會讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7337.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7357.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
被開的能夠拿回來錢最好你讓他晚半年拿回來他只要拿得回來他什麼都好所以我一個建議就是第一個我希望我可以研究一下有沒有可能分級去減刑研究就好就是說譬如說全額賠償的人跟至少已經賠了50%或長期願意旅行 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7360.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7383.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就是分期賠償的有沒有不同的對待方式這沿你就好我沒有強制的要求第二個拉長期限你們說六個月對不對那會不會我們可不可以把改成40省延遲辯論終結前而不要強制定六個月當然你說這六個月是你們的那個數據上面的顯示但是如果我們把它認為把它變成是40省延遲辯論終結前會不會比較有彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7386.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7400.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這個請你們研究一下那很多時候反而有這個彈性的緩衝可以讓被告更有時間去籌錢去來賠要讓被告知道被害人的損失是我造成的我必須要負擔這個責任不好意思最後一個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7401.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7421.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我一直思考大家包括今天在座行政機關我們要不要思考一個刑事禁捨令我有看到你們第50條有禁捨條款但禁捨條款它變成是一個作文比賽它變成量刑參考但是我們可不可以去思考到一個點很重要的點我實務經驗得到了一個點我們可不可以用一個如果你沒有賠完錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7422.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7449.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
被抓到奢侈行為我們有一個刑事禁捨令直接撤銷緩刑 撤銷假釋因為目前沒有嘛目前雖然假釋這個行政上面可以撤銷你如果和解金沒有賠可以撤銷但是我們是不是可以有一個你今天如果說騙了錢即使你有在還和解的錢可是被我發現你還在外面大手大腳的花不願意立刻拿出來賠錢我一個刑事禁捨令下去依據這個可以撤銷緩刑或撤銷假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7450.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7474.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
麻煩你們研究一下我的實務經驗告訴我這個東西對打詐絕對有效請研究一下第二個如果有高額消費要直接視為犯罪所得有一些人他其實很多錢是藏在某個地方啊那等到他自由在外的時候就開始大手大腳的花那我們是不是應該要把他視為犯罪所得優先還給被害人而不要讓他再慢慢賠錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7476.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7494.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我覺得這才叫做打詐打詐我絕對要求嚴懲打詐我不會反對原刑峻法但是不要留於形式主義要真的能夠有效我覺得各位很多都是實務出身的會懂我在說什麼還有法務部麻煩再次檢討一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7495.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7518.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
定因執行刑這個法律上的設計這是死理法因為大家都知道一罪一罰就全國國人以為說你犯越多罰越重我跟各位報告啊不是這樣啊一罪一罰確實是你犯了100條詐欺是判100條沒錯但是在最後回到定因執行刑的時候又得到一個超級黑卡金卡然後大打折 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7518.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7529.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
又回去原來的很輕所以各位才會發現我騙了100次跟騙兩次三次刑度差不多在定因執行刑的時候差不多所以定因執行刑該不該 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7531.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7553.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
一律存在或是可不可以在我們打詐的時候跟原本的其他案件脫鉤請你們要思考一下我看到的詐欺犯常常一來詐欺多到要請事務官幫我做列表他要搞一個列表才能夠看他兩三百次的詐欺然後他的前科表跟跟百科全書一樣厚他也不在乎然後反正定義執行之後又跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7554.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7582.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
騙一兩次的人判的一樣那詐欺集團的律師也是這樣在告訴教這些被告的反正你騙兩次跟騙五百次都判的差不多重反正定因執行刑又會回到最低了所以搞到最後根本沒有打詐的效果我在這邊點出都是實務的問題麻煩各位能夠從這地方去研擬修法不然我不好意思我只能找各位立法委員大家一起來修這個法律這就是實務上面的問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7583.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7598.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那再麻煩兩位能夠注意這個部分好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝我們感謝吳宗憲委員我們加麥正委員質詢我們待會到徐議政委員質詢後我們休訓五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席有請法務部次長還有警政署署長來 署長 次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7613.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7641.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
委員長市長早我想要請教一下我們行政院版的實務可行性我們都希望就是找抓到找拿錢找辦大家都想說就是把趕快處理但是說政府要求就是涉詐者必須在偵查中首次自白起算六個月內完成調解金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7643.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7671.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
賠償才能減刑對一般人或許是可行啦但是對移工完全不同的情況第一就是食物的狀況很多移工在炸團裡最低層就是跑腿呀有可能就是有幾百塊一千塊根本都沒有犯罪的所得他們也沒有語言的能力沒有法律的資源更不可能在六個月內抽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7672.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7682.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
賠償金所以第一件事情我想要請教一下我們法務部你有掌握就是統計數據就是移工的部分涉案的案件有多少人曾經在六個月內完成調解與賠償比例是多少如果有統計如果沒有統計的話在六個月內的門檻是不是根本沒有實質的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7700.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7713.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
在實務上有根本做不到第二個更重要的是辦案的效果如果移工無法達到六個月的門檻就自然被排除在這樣子的一個優惠自白的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7717.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7732.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以呢他們有要配合我們辦案提出主嫌或者這樣的設計是否降低就是破案率降低追到上游的主嫌的可能性所以我們問題很簡單就是在攸關制度的成敗六個月的門檻對弱勢移工是否可行還是說反而讓破案更困難就兩個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7744.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7760.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
好謝謝委員這個六個月的設計是跟司法院有研商過那一般的案件我們先講一般案件偵查我們抓三個月那審判我們抓三個月一般的案件渴望在六個月之內能夠審判就判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7761.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7786.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那我們抓這個時間就是他自白首次自白或者是自首的時候我們就抓六個月讓他清場剛才委員提到移工的問題我們這裡沒有統計的數據移工的問題的話如果說他能夠表達他的善意他告訴被害人他的情境就是說我只是因為怎麼樣而且我獲得的這個金額就是這麼多我非常的有誠意 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7787.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7813.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我跟被害人達成和解那被害人如果能夠完全理解他的狀況他有可能不會要他高額的賠償他譬如說他真的就只有達到三千塊他願意用五千塊或一萬塊錢的損害或者就三千塊錢跟被害人達成和解我們現在講的是和解如果是這麼說因為我們也希望說因為你現在沒有統計但是我們看到報紙都什麼都說移工就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7814.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7825.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
最大的犯罪啊什麼所以呢如果你覺得說他就是自首就是自白但是我們偵探中首次自白當成六個月調解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7828.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7846.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
起算點但實際上我們在基層看到的外籍義工在警詢或者偵查的時候就聽不懂或者沒翻譯或者是說亂簽名這一個話根本對自己的自白就是有沒有這法律的效應所以我們是說想要請教的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7851.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7876.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
沒有充分的翻譯的自白 到底算不算有效 因為他自己講的所以刑訴明文規定自白必須是自由意識 還有就是說一個程序的正義語言都聽不懂的話 哪來的自由意志 所以我們希望的是說在自白的法律效力有沒有存在 第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7876.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7886.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
如果自白本身就是有一種很多的傻刺重重能不能當作簡型的起算點起算點的一旦定錯了是不是懲罰聽不懂中文的弱勢的族群這樣子的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7897.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7904.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
是不是真正的對 殺害者有幫助所以我們警政署這邊也要請說清楚目前第一線的外籍人士辦案有沒有專線 專責各種語言的辦案的團隊就是在每一次的記錄 每一次的翻譯是否就是合格口譯的 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7921.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7949.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
自白都是很必要的因為要保障被害人也如果當起算點本身都不公平的話就算用程序正義去換補償或者這樣的制度能不能讓人民真的應用的到落實我希望的是說在這樣子的法律是否能理解或者自白的法律的效力在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7950.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7976.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
跟委員報告就是我們如果查獲這一些的一個詐欺的這個犯罪不管是哪一個國籍的在偵查過程當中我們的同意是沒有問題的就是會充分的表達他的這個整個相關的整個情節那我們是有同意的包括你會粵語就粵語的同意啦英文就英文啦日文就日文啦這個同意是在執行面是沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7978.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8006.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
因為剛才我們次長說就是馬上就可以處理所以我才要問說如果是馬上處理他們還不懂他們的因為很多人就是為了自己說脫罪啊什麼的所以他們就馬上說啊我這個我就自首但是問題我們是要要的是辦案要找到主謀嘛這個最主要的工作嘛不是說他自首就好了所以說因為這今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8007.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8022.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這幾年啊 移工涉案 詐欺案的就是很多嘛因為你們的報紙一直在登所以警政署雖然已製作很多的語言宣導還有就是翻譯有這樣子的效果我一直在強調說 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8024.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8044.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
詐騙集團一直利用在台的就是所有議員來當作他們的車手當他們的詐騙集團但是我們警政署這邊有沒有個就是應用這一群在台灣的來去專門去抓這些人的我覺得才真正是你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8045.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8054.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
助手啦所以但是我們看到的就是希望我們警政署就是這三年關於就是針對移工的宣導還有線上的推播總廠次還有總處級的人數按照就是越南語 泰國語 菲律賓語就是我們東南亞語的語言 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8071.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8075.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以我們要看到就是在媒介 紙本或者短片還是賴 實質的宣傳所以我們希望就是說移工犯罪的熱區也要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8086.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8089.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
就例如是桃園、中壢、台中或屏東、台南、高雄等等所以我們每次這樣子的就是宣傳有多少還有數量再說165的專線對外籍人士來的接聽或者是處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8105.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8109.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
效率還有指標這些是不是署長在本會期內在書面回覆我說公開的書記因為很多人都說看到報紙看到什麼還有委員的質詢就說外國人詐騙怎麼樣但是我們希望的就是說書記不能用講的真正有書記是怎樣這樣的宣傳落地 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8132.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8158.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
因為有這些人被利用我們宣傳也要到位才能真正的解決問題主席再給我一分鐘讓他們回答好沒問題我們會後提供這個我們會提供這個相關的宣傳我們都是綿密的在做不管是我們本國籍或是或是是外籍這個我們當然這是鋪天蓋地的這樣的一個宣傳防詐的這個相關的意思了 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8158.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8178.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那这些数据不管是在我们165这个打在这个这个仪表板啊或者是在这些聚焦的这些外企移工聚集的这些场所我们大概会透过移民署的这个整个的这个这个机制在做这样的一个宣导那确实的这个数据我们会再提供给委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8179.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8200.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我再強調 移工涉案是不是就是個別的事件 而是就是我們政府長期就是以源先導希望這一塊因為我們在預算期所以我們資訊要提供中介的管理還有三大環節失靈所造成的就是制度的問題弱勢聽不懂 資訊不透明不對稱中介亂象這些就是我們的基層的要怎麼樣去協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8208.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8235.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
真正的主嫌不要让他们就是逍遥法外所以就是署长这边你说在三周内还是一周内可以提供给我三年以来对移工的仿造的宣传还有场次地点还有对象还有所有的内容的方式让我们也可以一并协助帮忙去做宣传因为现在宣 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8236.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8265.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
被炸的不只是我們的國人我們不管是來這邊工作讀書嫁來的被炸的真的太普遍了但是我們就看到就是宣傳不夠所以你要拿出這樣子的一個讓我們也幫你去宣傳也讓我們在台灣出一份力變成你們的小幫手這樣子的話才真正的我們是防炸消除詐騙以上 謝謝委員上個禮拜你也提供對 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8269.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8282.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
謝謝我們感謝麥正委員我們請徐議政委員接受謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有警政署張署長請保證請張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8290.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8306.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
學員部長好 署長好我想部長這幾年其實政府一直把打雜當成我們重點的工程包括說五大七岸的重大政策還有跨部會跨國界跨平台的一個國家級任務所以在111年有推出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8307.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8334.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
新世代的打擊詐欺的行動綱領1.0然後到113年11月28號也再度的推出了行動綱領但是本席必須很直白的說從111年的新世代打詐綱領推出之後到114年最關鍵的制度工程就是我們刑事局的詐房中心的正式法治化卻是在11月28號正式揭牌成立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8334.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8354.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但是呢看起來是整整遲到了三年既然如果打詐真的如各位所說的不管是我們把它列為國安等級政府最重視的那為什麼這麼重要的單位一直要到現在才法制化而專責打擊詐騙的才新設了這個詐欺的偵查隊呢謝謝委員的關心我想委員知道這個防詐中心它本來就有任務編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8362.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8382.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那現在法治化的話當然要經過我們包括人事行政總署包括主計處等等的幫忙我們才能夠把人員的一步到位那現在已經正式成立以後我相信我們炸防中心會朝著這個方向持續在做其實從111年到現在是三年的時間那事實上您剛講的那些問題需要這麼久的時間才能夠正式成立嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8383.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8411.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
第一个任务编组其实我们的防诈的任务还是一样在做那再来就是其实我觉得在这个诈房里面最大的功能是在于我们的打诈新司法能够过在法律上能够过去年7月就过了所以我们现在慢慢也有成绩出来但是我们不以此为主才会有今天的这个修正草案诈骗的问题你也知道现在的诈骗集团层出不穷而且最重要他们的这个推陈出新随时都在更改所以这个时间上 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8413.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8428.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
整整落後了一年多才成立這個我們這個炸防中心我覺得其實有一點緩慢但是到底為什麼會造成這樣的狀況你知道嗎 部長很多的被害人跟我反映什麼他說是不是因為你到9月其實才通過那個考試院的審議通過然後10月14才核定11月7號 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8436.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8441.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
修正發佈並生效實施11月28日正式成立有很多受害者跟我講什麼他說為什麼拖到9月會不會是因為823之前大家都在忙罷免大罷免的事情是因為大罷免32比0之後因為已經失敗了所以才會到9月之後才來處理這個事情所以是不是因為罷免而耽誤了打雜呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8460.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8489.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
委員我想你非常清楚跟這個完全無關因為您剛有提到包括考試院或者是行政院的人總都是要去做溝通的部長我現在跟您反映的是被害者的心聲所以為什麼有這樣的感受表示說我們的速度還是慢了一點我們還是希望我們打大所以說呢現在因為我看到你們的報告是寫說這個詐房中心法治化之後可以偵辦跨境重大的詐騙那請問一下那過去法治化前三年喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8490.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8505.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
跨境詐騙是因為沒有主責沒有法源 沒有完整人力嗎那當時的跨境打詐你們用怎麼樣的方式來處理因為跨境詐騙是這幾年爆量成長那為什麼不是最優先法治化的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8508.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8524.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
跨境的部分我是不是請署長跟您做一個簡單報告那跨境的這個部分確實目前就是我們打造比較要去做精進的一個地方那最主要就是說有一些國家是跟我們沒有邦交的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8525.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8552.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那偏偏這些的炸團的一個的這個運作的機房或水房的中心就在那些根本沒有邦交的國家那不過我們這個選舉駐外的聯絡官都有在積極做這樣的一個努力那我們也會從鄰國的一些的我們跟我們友好的國家會去做這樣的一個合作的一個機制的做處理那署長您剛提的這些主要是我們有的沒邦交然後都在境外 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8553.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8569.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那請問一下那這樣聽起來的話那我們要這個打擊詐騙事實上有非常大的困難未來這個這個詐謗中心成立之後我們要怎麼樣來去處理這個我們就是詐謗中心成立完之後這個機制當然我們沒有成立之前也實質有在運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8570.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8596.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
不過這個成立完之後我們的人力編組各方面在就是有預算更加的充實大概就是細緻上會做得更好對 我們今年的前三季外籍這個嫌疑犯就有8293人這是你們統計的一個數字對 就是外籍來但大部分都是車手啦所以這個部分我覺得真的對於我們這些為什麼大家都會覺得台灣是一個詐騙的天堂因為我們第一個我們要這個去 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8597.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8624.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
偵查這樣子的一個詐騙有相當的困難再來就是說針對境外的部分我們其實在實行上也有很大的一定的困難所以才會有這樣的一個狀況所以說我再想要請教一下就是部長就是說今年的11月4號新加坡為了打擊這個詐欺犯罪修法通過要加重詐騙刑罰可實施鞭刑外國人也適用那請問一下台灣可否比照 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8625.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8655.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這樣子的一個方式來去研議修法的可行性那當然法務部我們許正次是不是也可以針對法務部是不是可以共同來研議這個修法的可行性那 是保委員這個編寫的部分真的會牽扯到酷刑公約跟養公約的問題那這個要必須要經過很長的研討是 所以剛剛我提到就是說是不是法務部跟內政部可以來研議一下因為事實上這個新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8655.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8677.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
他已經做這樣的執行在11月4號那我們也可以參考他這一段時間的成效來去看看是不是真的有達到一個嚇阻的作用讓我們的詐騙的這個犯罪率能夠下降我覺得這是一個可以參考的依據那我覺得是不是兩位部長可以好好部長跟次長可以好好的來去研擬一下可以研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8680.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8693.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
謝謝我想針對這個部分其實我覺得也可以多參考一下新加坡也許可以去新加坡考察一下謝謝最後一點時間三位請回最後一點時間我請教數發部的數位產業署黃副署長來 數發部委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8702.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8725.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
黃副署長我想請教一下你們現在有一個網路詐騙通報查詢網3.0這個是你們的網站嗎因為其實我們點進去要查詢的時候事實上有一點不知道他到底要查詢什麼你可以看到這個畫面就是很亂然後也不曉得要怎麼要查詢什麼結果我這個部分我看到有一個點進去網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8726.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8753.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
認定是詐騙網站之後你們在兩個小時之內就通知FB把他移除了但是我用我自己的名字查詢了一下你可以看一下就第一個上面是顯示說徐宇貞委員的這個你可以看一下就是民眾舉報疑似詐騙的訊息在11月3號然後你們有公佈了一個網址你現在看到這個網址可是根本不是我的網址 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8755.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8768.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
根本不是我的網址而且我們也依照你們網站所提供的訊息我根本看不到經過你們確認無誤的這到底是什麼樣的訊息那錯誤的顯示方式是不是會讓民眾造成說我對這個詐騙通報網有什麼意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8771.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8791.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
是 我想其實委員這個部分來講的話我們也正在建立的就是類似像名人通報的部分像立法委員或者是一些網路我們常見到像張忠謀之類的這樣的一個名人的通報如果我們已經建立這樣的一個VIP的廣告你看下一則 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8793.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8810.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
他有一個是我在這個國事論壇講話的這個照片然後呢我講的是朱鎔泰院長因為在7月18號朱鎔泰院長拒絕給人民一萬塊的救命錢但內容摘要卻是川普撕破民主供應鏈假面積賴清德還要自欺欺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8811.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8814.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
然後就說7月18有疑似詐騙是由資安院AI自動搜尋查獲疑似詐騙然後7月10%已經通知我可是我問了一輪我們辦公室沒有一個人收到通知還有再來圖片跟文案根本完全不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8828.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8832.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那所以你現在AI是不是已經設定了只要是講到那個卓榮泰院長或是賴清德總統的你就把他視為詐騙了然後就是要通報就是這是一個疑似詐騙的訊息是因為我們如果發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們會跟委員辦公室來做一個確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8845.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8852.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
就沒有 我們全部的同仁問過一輪了沒有一個人說到這樣的還有再來就是說對 因為你說的資安院AI自動掃描我現在的感受只是說我們是不是就沒有辦法說真話如果我們在國會殿堂上面說這樣的真話的時候馬上就把我們列為這個警示帳戶我們是疑似詐騙的這個訊息所以我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8866.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8881.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個通報網這個網站通報網反而應該是要幫助人民但是現在看起來反而無所謂而且造成我們更大的困擾是不是這個部分請你們要好好的來去檢討一下好不好來去改進我們會去了解一下這個案情那是不是會後再給我對 到我辦公室來說明一下謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝徐宇臻委員我們要困國紛爭再繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8907.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8916.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
外國人有,但是還需要六個月的休養休養休養休養休養 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8928.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8935.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
要不刻意就要從裡面的核解數裡面去找它就變成你要調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8958.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8959.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8962.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8988.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那時候就會有錢的話,可以扣啊,扣要便利都可以做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8988.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9000.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這個黑眼裡的徹甲甲是因為徹甲甲是裡面有這一條就是靜止這個黑眼這個我們來講這個徹甲甲就是徹甲甲的徹甲褲因為徹甲甲褲的黑褲褲褲褲褲褲褲褲褲褲 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9009.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9010.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這一次用 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9047.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9048.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9090.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9095.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9103.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9109.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9117.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9118.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9135.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9157.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這個位置,這個位置,這個位置這個位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9161.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9185.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
沒有負擔願意訪問的方式應該來得及 而現在已經發生兩次了但是我們都不太會接受這種挑戰所以我們現在還不好意思講過我們想做的事情應該不會解釋得很清楚對 它是比較平均的 跟保護的會很不一樣所以當時就把這邊打到整整不保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9197.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9197.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我還在進補 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9201.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9219.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
但是建設,現在直接,我們現在建設這個移民出來,大概六、七年,一定就讓他了解,但是建設一定要有存在,對,不用講說怎樣,就要有文化的壓力,對文化的要貫徹啊,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹,要貫徹 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9221.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9238.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
但是因為那時候他們不太願意,所以我們就不可以在那裡享受,所以就要在那裡只有認識,還有全力的做,你只有宣誓我做的,做的更加要感受這個事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9239.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9261.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個量心不高的早期,現在頂多一百萬,我看可以降到五十萬,再降到一百萬,你量心啊,你量心啊,對啊,你才可以,你才可以賺到一百萬,才可以賺到三百萬,你就要降到五十萬以下,你才可以賺到五十萬。 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9264.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9285.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
對嘛,所以說現在通常有50萬喔?對,50萬以上的總包包而已啦百分之七八十,大概50萬,現在正常都夠了當然會多,但是如果量303當然也太高了所以那個高的潮汐我心目中,進來進去進來的方式,一般我們比較寡慮,但這個人比較寡慮怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9296.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9296.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9307.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9336.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那種溫泉湖,溫泉湖那種可以到溫泉湖,溫泉湖就是那種鎮療好物的地方他們的王寶給來的內地女人在溫泉湖那裡,就有男女啊,就有男女在那裡,就有男女啊,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有男女在那裡,就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9342.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9344.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
謝主席 金管會有請請金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9372.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9381.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好辛苦了這個今天藉法條的這個審查的詢答跟你探討一個政策相關的問題當然也是跟這個詐欺危害犯罪防治條例相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9382.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9410.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個我們這一次的院版裡面有第11條就是有談這個張款發還的方向張款發還的方向那針對這個帳戶裡面沒有經過提領的款項或資產到時候通知之後要發還給被害人也就是給予被害人最大程度的補償這事實上大家都非常非常關心因為其實詐騙的被害人其實最關心的事情就是錢到底能不能拿回來不好意思 主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9411.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9411.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我那時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9412.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9423.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
沒有開始 我可以一直講嗎好 不要緊 繼續講一定要防詐的這個重要的問題 來謝謝主席好 那我們就回到主題目前這個發完的程序就是說我這個被詐騙的錢要怎麼還給這詐騙的受害人現在金管會裡面有訂立叫做金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員防制詐欺犯罪危害應遵循事項辦法這名字有夠長 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9443.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9470.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這53條裡面規定這是你的辦法這是一個行政命令的層級所以我說今天來做政策的對話他說存款業務機構依前條規定辦理就剛剛講這個辦理的時候應透過這個匯出存款業務機構或電子支付通知被害人由被害人檢據相關文件然後依啊匯轉入時間逐筆認定未被提領部分由最後一筆金額往前推算這個絕對大家都聽不懂在講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9471.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9478.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
簡單來說這一個賬戶假設有分三筆60萬一個30萬20萬的10萬好如果今天被抓了就按照10萬20萬30萬倒退的回去就是越晚被詐騙的優先來領現在制度上的設計為了方便他長成這個樣子如果說這60萬沒有被領走那他就是10萬的20萬的30萬還給被害人對不對這聽起來沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9496.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9513.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好啦問題來啦今天如果這60萬被詐騙完之後這個詐騙犯他把50萬領走了剩下10萬的時候來問題出現了請問按照你現在的規定這個10萬該歸屬於誰啊甲乙丙甲被騙30萬乙被騙20萬丙被騙10萬按照這個順序對不對其中50萬被甲乙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9517.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9534.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
拿去用掉了剩下10萬在這個戶頭裡按照你現行的辦法只有餅可以拿回這10萬甲哥你就哭啦我是怎樣我比較早被騙所以我比較倒楣他晚被騙他還可以拿回來一點點這個這樣子的一個制度設計是不是有一點狀況是不是請金管會說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9536.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9560.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
因為這個涉及到等於說他這個是犯罪所得的一個重新返還那變成說他相關的法律關係的話變成說要看那個司法機關法院的判決來處理變成說那個金融機構比較沒有權責再去做相關的判斷可是現在發完程序還是要依循金管會的作業辦法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9561.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9577.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
是我們就是原則上是這樣子按照順序去原則上是這樣那不會延伸更多糾紛嗎因為涉及到如果說他不是整比的話就涉及到每一個受害人的權利的問題對啊那就變成說可能就要留待那個法院來做一個裁判這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9578.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9604.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
你現在的狀況是因為你有個規定寫在那邊那大家就要依法行政依你的辦法去做這個事情然後他就會衍生爭議縱然你講也許法院會介入判決但是這樣讓每一個事情變成個案上面有高度的不確定性本期認為有異議當然你講因為按照這個流動的順序啊或怎麼樣按照這個主筆來做回去那是最簡單的這是從金管委本會出發嘛也就是說我這是一個行政成本最低的做法但我問你這個行政成本最低的做法並不是一個最公平的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9605.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9631.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
是不是你要不要考慮一下修整比如說等比例發還之類的因為大家同樣一包被騙都很倒霉嘛對不對那最後不管這個加害人幹走了多少錢但是剩下來的錢你要等比例發還是不是比較公平也比較有統一的程序可以做依循本來就藉這個機會跟你做一下這樣的探討委員會建議我們會來研議考慮但是就是說這個條文設計的原因就是希望加速返還這個相關的款項來彌補這個被害人的損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9634.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9652.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
就讓它程序比較便捷比較快速但是如果說在細節的一些程序上的設計是不是可以向委員建議這樣比較公平性我們再來研議看看你要研議多久因為現在在討論法條的修正當然這個東西不見得要透過法條的修正來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9652.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9678.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
但是這個一定是顯然未來大家今天這次修正相關的條文就是標舉就是說這犯罪所得可以盡速而且有效的返還給被害人嘛你不要說法條修了然後大家有所期待然後最後出來發現有這樣的一個制度上的一個問題然後招致更多的糾紛恐怕有些問題所以我認為是要同步處理跟著我們法條的修正的這樣的一個節奏法條在討論的同時你的作業辦法就要有所修正那請問金管會能不能提出具體的時間表呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9680.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9700.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
時間表這部分我們是不是因為我們現在這個條文還是有一個有一個彈性的也就是說金融機構他會去判斷說這個金額的狀況是不是能夠叫發還那如果說不適合發還的話他還是就是不會先執行這個狀況那當然如果說這個怎麼去優化涉及到實務面我們在執行的話我們會再找銀行或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9701.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9727.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
執法機關來共同討論看看比較好的方式那是不是我們會後再跟委員來報告一下沒關係配合這個法案的修正進度因為今天答詢完後面可能會再安排逐條討論的時間我不希望到逐條討論的時候這是一個懸而未解的問題好不好你就配合因為整個詐欺違法條例在修正也一定涉及這個官方機關跟各級民意代表針對不同法條的溝通啦今天就把它當成也許有一個修正動議怎麼樣來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9728.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9746.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
匯後要跟本辦公室保持密切聯繫我們討論一下這辦法怎麼樣來修正可以兼顧行政的效率跟發環的公平性可以嗎是可以好再來我要問一下C43條的大家的修正的意見因為現在這部分我們內政部好了可以沒關係現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9749.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9775.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
上次我們在內政委員會討論這個犯刑法339條之四之罪獲取財務或財產上的利益達到五百萬元以上者就要三年以上十年以下有期徒刑嘛基本上就是重罰嘛然後達一億元者五年以上十二年以下嘛那現在很多委員都有提案有些把門檻降低變成你的這個金手的金流這個受害的金額達到一百萬我就要去關有些是說我分層處理就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9776.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9796.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
就是說五百萬的一千萬的一億的分成三層那我請問現在行政機關對於這樣子的一個修法意見也就是說我們在重罰各式各樣的這種大額大家都投資詐騙的行為吸金詐騙投資詐騙這樣的一個行為現在行政院這邊的立場是什麼謝謝委員我們現在目前就是層級化就是一百一千一億 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9798.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9810.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
現在就成績化那100萬的話的部分是3年到10年那如果是1000萬的話是5年到12年1億的話就是7年以上所以大概一個成績化大概是目前是這樣這加重了 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9812.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9827.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這個基本上本席非常關心這個違法吸金的一個狀況就今天財政委員會同步在審查銀行法那銀行法當然是針對吸金的部分吸金的部分不一定被拿走只要金流有超過他就達成一定的要件那麼請問現在從炸房條例的地方我能不能有效嚇阻違法吸金的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9828.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9848.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我想有效的嚇阻是多面向的不是只有單一刑事法刑法的一個提升這是其中的一環所以我們現在修正的這個法條它也是用金流的數字去算嗎還是要用不法所得的角度去算我們這個是以被害人交付的金額交付的金額對這個就不會堵掉很多疑義 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9849.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9869.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們現在擔心的詐騙形態現在很多種有很多那種小額的啦一點點的微小的那種狀況當然是非常非常多的但是真正對於社會治安還有大家公信重大受創的一定都是那種投資型的大額詐騙就是先以小利右拐上車上車之後就開始賣房子賣身家對不對全身一乾二淨 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9870.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9897.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那種好幾百萬好幾億的所以我會建議一下這我們相關的機關在設計的時候當然現在分三成因為基本上你的最高一億元以上七年以上就是跟現在的違法基金是對齊的狀態但本期的主張這應該再加重因為你要超過好幾億的那是不知道多少人的身家性命房子地產全部都在裡面那你如果還是只有這個七年以上恐怕是我是希望可以再往上增加我希望行政院再提出一點再細膩的版本多分幾成也無所謂這是本期的政策建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9898.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9914.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
針對投資詐騙我們一定要到牢底坐穿啦這是本席的主張希望我們在未來討論的時候可以有更多方向更細緻的討論可以嗎是 遵守大院的決定好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝牛市廷委員我們請黃建斌召委質詢謝謝主席我們有請內政部長跟警政署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9926.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9928.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我們補充一下數字你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9937.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9958.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
兩位高長 兩位好我想詐騙讓民眾相當的痛恨甚至造成許多家庭因為這樣家庭破碎依照我們現在法務部的統計地檢署電信網路詐騙 詐欺案件所偵查的起訴人數車手人數是逐年增加而且比例越來越高為什麼這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9959.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9973.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
主要這個關鍵就是因為我們的量行過低而且難以起到這個阻嚇的作用讓這些車手關不怕關不怕出來之後繼續在煩人其中很多都是年輕人甚至有些是未成年的學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9974.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10002.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那我們根據目前詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條在減刑的條件當中法官認為詐騙車手的酬勞車馬費是犯罪所得如果車手把酬勞車馬費繳回就符合這個減刑的條件另外根據今年5月14號最高法院的刑事大法庭裁定更主觀的認為說我們法律條件中的犯罪所得是詐欺行為人實際取得的個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10003.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10025.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
犯罪酬勞其中不包括其他共犯或其所屬的犯罪組織那如果詐騙行為在這個過程中沒有實際取得個人所得僅需自白就可以符合減刑的條件這會造成什麼狀況就是說現在很多時候在法輪功機上詐騙行為可以利用這個漏洞因為不斷的洗腦這些年輕人說你這裡的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10028.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10052.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
高得宜 可能是幾千塊的車法或幾萬塊酬勞就可以獲得減刑嘛但問題是你這樣 要是抓不到就連館人都會被抓到那詐騙案你後面牽扯這個不法利益可能是數百萬甚至數千萬幕後主審我們都抓不到然後最後都是車手在扛那現在這個法律的條件的體制底下車手又沒辦法重罰就像抓不到警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10054.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10081.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
官員不怕出來繼續做人數一直逐漸的持續的增加那第一線我們的這些警政人員的這個執勤就是披於本命那這一次的朝野立委提案都說要修正這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七 四十六條那其中有一個重點就是必須要先支付被害人的和解金才可以緩刑才可以申請減刑那這個修法是希望說減少我們法律的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10082.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10091.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
被鑽的這個機會那我們也可以危害我們被害人的權利那讓詐騙集團這些陳遠東必須要繳回被害人這個被騙的金額或者是跟被害人和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10092.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10117.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
才可以申請這個減免這個刑期我想這樣才可以真正讓被害人得到彌補也能夠那因此本市這邊也我絕對只是這樣想一定要針對詐騙要加重刑責然後也減少這個專法律漏洞的機會讓執法人員有更多的武器來有效的阻嚇這些犯罪的集團那也避免說你看我們這幾年打仗越打越多那執法人員就皮皮本命越做越辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10118.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10132.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那考個該有寒喔那所謂本縣要提案第一層執法人員來請命特別就是我們的刑警的部分喔書店案典改來前委員會選接巡迴書店喔就是有關刑事加急的部分署長您說4月的時候會給承諾嘛齁那會在3個月來 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10136.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10155.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
會提出我們形勢加急的這個方案過去都沒有消息那今年11月中的時候我就在也是在內政委會我們就是也是問我們的副署長那副署長答應我說會在11月底的時候會提出相關報告那結果你報告只有一條線就是告訴我們說會跟相關機關溝通來徵詢意見說到背就是都沒有進度嘛所以本身在這裡要很嚴肅把我們經濟事務來 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10165.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10173.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
講這個事情 這是第二度跳票很多基層的刑事人員都在等我們行政我們警政署的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10174.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10177.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這幾年其實署長也很清楚知道刑事警察出現非常大的人力荒 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10197.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10213.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這樣進行之下我們不就照顧現有的這些行屬隱患我們新進同仁也不進來那未來是不是會造成整個人勤事人員的大短缺這個部分我要請組長具體的回答說到底我們警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10215.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10238.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所研擬的這個具體方案是什麼到底什麼時候才有答案謝謝委員就是行事人員真的是工作是非常的辛苦那我們也會針對就是整個不是只有行事人員包括就是直轄市或各縣市政府警察局對他們的這個繁重加急或者行事人員做多做 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10238.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10256.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
全班的一個考量那我們就是會跟我們的這個相關的縣市的一個政府來先做有一些是給付要縣市政府來做一個給付這部分就是在在溝通溝通完之後我們會形成這個政策那我們持續在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10258.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10279.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以今年我們有答案嗎 或是之前的行事過程我們盡量時間盡量來提早來做規劃蘇長你現在蓋城城現在的狀況因為我們現在就是說大概我們的公文也給各縣市這個政府來提供這樣的相關的意見等資訊回來之後我們再做統籌的一個比較明確的一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10283.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10298.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
謝謝署長還是再次強調就是這件事情其實我們已經預測到未來人力短缺的情況然後再加上現在這些制度還沒有明確的話如果我們不趕快解決真的等到哪天人力短缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10299.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10314.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
亮紅燈的時候那時候來永不老都來不及我們會盡快來做一個處理部長可不可以責任警政署在今年年底今年年底完成刑事加急的調整的具體方案也提供給本市辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10315.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10336.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
報告委員其實我們對於警察自己本身的權益我們都非常努力來爭取那大概有幾個方向第一個就是深夜危老加急的部分謝謝我們立委支持我們現在已經把公文呈上去了這是一個另外一個就是說非六都的這個警勤加急的部分現在已經有新竹縣他願意朝著班重加成處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10337.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10352.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那再來就是你所說的就跟刑事警察自己本身有關的部分那我們也會把它列為是爭取的方向那這個爭取的方向你說今年年底 現在已經年底了現在12月了說到 報告部長我們在4月的時候就說要給答案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10353.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10368.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
4月份的時候規劃的方向我們都知道但是就是要爭取的時候呢也是要跟地方政府溝通那地方政府溝通的話就是過半數的時候我們就會把這個溝通的方案再往上層然後來做爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10369.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10390.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個部分大概是三個方向 因為基層會覺得說署裡面都 我覺得你這樣說不公平啦我當然 但在署裡頭的現場 當然要幫基層爭取權益啊 但是他之前的行事 你們來說他會覺得說 我們的工作量越來越多 考核跟評比那麼多他的工作量其實在增加 其實我想署裡面都很清楚知道基層的狀況我了解 但是我們在 我剛剛跟你講說我們爭取的方向是三軌在並行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10396.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10408.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
規劃我們當然這樣規劃可是你地方政府他如果願意很快的同意我們的方向的話那我們再往那個行政單位局部長你覺得什麼時間來可以給我們答案因為基層都需要等到這個答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10410.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10437.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我們裡面有兩項已經往上呈報了那比較沒有太大困難那刑事的部分因為真的是牽涉到很多地方幫我們基層打打氣我說真的我們何止打氣我們本來就是要鼓勵他們而且我們是站在同一個線上在打擊犯罪的人怎麼會是用這樣那個我們太初是非常積極的也可以透過這些質詢讓基層的這些刑事警察知道說我們署裡面真的有心想要解決這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10437.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10457.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
除了其實你了解我們現在講的意思如果我們是平時如果有些人要做平時那這個是不是可以盡快如果年底不行我們還有明年的就過年前是不是可以讓他們知道說我至少知道說署裡面有在關心我們集成這些刑事人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10459.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10486.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
報告委員我想你會了解包括我們警政署跟我們內政部都是做時事的人我想不要虛隱故事那我的意思就跟你講就是說我們在地方政府在爭取上面如果有過半數的地方政府有同意這樣的話那我們往上呈報會比較容易那你如果沒有的話確實會很困難因為你自己也當過行政官員那所以我們就盡量來爭取有的話一定會很快就讓立法院的這個委員來了解好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10487.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10497.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
就拜託部長跟署長這邊 因為本席是接到基層行政委員一直在反映這件事情我們今天來解決這個問題 大家一起加油謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝黃建平召委 我們請羅天偉委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10515.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10540.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝主席有請部長 警政署署長還有詐欺犯罪防治中心主任法務部次長謝謝首先署長跟部長我先請教一個問題剛剛大家都很關心這個所謂的繁重加急現在你有提到所謂的深夜危老加急 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10541.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10557.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那我們也有關心形勢加急其實剛剛都有提到我都有在聽但是我想先就教署長最近我們是不是有發文去給各縣市去做一個詢問對於這個所謂的繁重加急我直接坦白跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10558.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10584.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
第一年就跟你講說繁重加擠要加了一直在跟你追我也是底下打電話給你好幾次那終於你有發文問了我先一個感謝但第二個我也坦白跟你講我剛剛直接打電話去台中市政府的警察局我也在跟他們抱怨我說你收到公文怎麼還沒回他說卡在府城我直接跟你說你們有詢問市政府不同意不支持我拜託你公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10586.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10601.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
做得到嗎如果說委員要求的話我們就會公佈你公佈嘛你支持你支持的狀況之下市政府不同意那讓市政府來接受輿論啊我們想辦法去讀書啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10603.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10629.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
對不對今天你願意詢問了我很感謝所以我剛剛也一直抱怨為什麼他們還沒回函所以我希望這個部分應該要一起來努力這個家籍的部分大家真的要想辦法幫他們我遇過警察自殺的我也遇過警察在工作場所暴斃的而現在我們為了這個詐騙事情成竹不窮所以我要問現在詐騙手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10630.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10653.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
每個禮拜都在更新假客服假加油還有一些有的沒的手法風險類型往往都跟不上這些炸團的更新速度所以現在社會上有一批很不滿的強烈不滿的就是這一批車手詐騙的車手反覆翻案民眾常常看到就是同一批同一批進去出來進去出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10654.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10676.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
抓了又放關了又出來讓治安的信任度感受到很大的一個挑戰我要問請問一下警方目前對於累犯的車手有沒有建檔標記追蹤相關的機制多次落網風險較高的這些人作為高風險對象對於偵查有更高的一個機制來做一個風險判斷有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10678.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10703.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
委員這個部分我們當然是有建立這樣的一個機制不管是剛剛很多委員有執行過就是車手不斷在同一個車手犯多次的這種狀況我們都有做這樣的一個情資的一個好 謝謝這個沒問題詐騙案件也呈現多頭的部署我舉例人在AD帳戶在BD網站在海外車手限時跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10705.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10732.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
警政署目前對於跨縣市的合作資料的共享修正同步化具體這樣的一個制度有沒有強化的方法我們會就是行政局有建立一個正辦的一個平台那這個平台我們會去做一個整合做一個分析跟共享我們現在我要引用一個日本最近的一個案例他在鹿兒島 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10734.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10762.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
有兩名自稱台灣籍的車手冒充警察企圖詐騙高齡者的年金日本警方察覺有異後立即與金融機構合作採取假裝受騙的方式當場逮捕另外也連帶破獲一案這個案例凸顯兩件事情第一高齡者一定是最脆弱的所以最容易被鎖定的族群第二前端的獄警攔阻通報反制的一個策略非常關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10764.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10782.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以台灣面臨同樣高齡者詐騙平反通報現在車手跨區的流動情況警政組是不是有更規劃主動的攔阻反制的一個做法日本可以透過前端攔阻通報主動反制這樣的一個成功破案台灣能不能做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10783.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10797.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這個部分是沒有問題的就是說在對高齡者那我們當然對針對就是最容易的他去的包括金融機構或是零貴的官委提供的房子之外我們也針對高齡來做宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10799.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10823.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那對於車手 尤其是車手我們我們是會分析到他的熱點 熱區 時段會去做這樣家常勤奮的部署另外當然還有偵查偵查的部分我們當然會去做逮捕了這個相關的作為這個其實我們的這個預防跟偵查這個能力我們是有方法跟有步驟的這個部分我們偵查的能力是 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10826.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10851.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
講到宣導我要幫警察講話我一個拜託你你聽聽看我們在跑地方行程所有的委員可能都遇過長青會吃飯結果警察來做宣導這個也是一個場合很辛苦警察很辛苦我知道是場合歡迎你運用但警察很辛苦要辦案還要做宣導乾脆你組一個詐騙防制的志工隊去做所謂的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10852.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10868.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
不要都是讓警察去做宣導的動作讓警察能夠分擔一些業務的志工去做這件事情我想相信這個宣導的部分不一定要由警察自己來做那警察就是一邊宣導一邊陪笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10870.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10893.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
委員如果願意的話 你的力道還更強我願意 我們拿麥克風幫忙講都沒問題啊前陣子都在講普發一萬ATM這個轉帳的問題我們都有宣導 可是我的意思是說你要我們做可以啊我們自己也會自己約束啊但是這個部分是不是有機會不要去讓員警一直做到宣導的工作找一批志工幫忙協助讓員警回歸專業來幫助治安 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10895.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10906.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我們會公私合力啦 公私合力來做也希望你關心啦 謝謝謝謝感謝羅定偉委員我們聽王洪威委員接受好 謝謝主席我請劉部長還有我們請鄭署 張署長張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10926.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10953.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
委員好部長好 還有署長好最近有一個議題其實受到我們社會大眾高度的關心就是台鐵在今年不斷地發生暴力攻擊然後現在也面臨到可是問題是我們現在鐵路警察的人數不足而且事實上這幾年都是下降的所以對於台鐵工會來說如果鐵路警察人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10954.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10978.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
但是台鐵的員工又面臨這種暴力攻擊所以他們提出是希望能夠增聘保全所以我想請問一下署長的看法我們在短時間內我們鐵路警察的人數可以增加嗎如果不能增加的話是不是支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10979.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11006.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
就是為了免除台鐵的員工面對這些暴力攻擊而應該去增聘保全的謝謝委員現在鐵路的這個員警那在短期內因為是要全國橫平性的所以短期內警力應該也沒辦法就是滿足到整個一個這樣的充足那我非常支持就是台鐵要推動保全人力常態的一個配置這個絕對支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11008.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11036.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
絕對支持這個應該徵聘保全好那至於鐵路人數不足鐵路警察人數不足的問題那你們有沒有做一些相關的規劃我們也會啦就是說會從這個學校的一個這個招生的這個畢業的學生那跟整個我們全國的各縣市警察局以及我們署組的各相關單位我們就會做比例橫平性的來做一個派譜 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11037.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11064.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以在這個部分也應該同步去增加了但是在這一段時間因為今年就發生14起的案件而且越來越離譜了所以基本上短期內以徵聘保全但是我覺得從中長期我們鐵路警察人數也應該減壓不足好 謝謝那我想部長應該也支持吧支持這樣的方向好 謝謝署長時間暫停一下我再請我們法務部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11065.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11069.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
來 時間暫停一下部長 那個劉部長還是請留步請保聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11074.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11097.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
好 部長 次長在我們這次炸房條例的修正裡面新增加了第50條第二項這是有感於就是很多的炸團炸騙一般民眾的錢然後他們過非常豪奢的生活實在違反社會觀感而且傷害這種被害者的感情 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11098.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11112.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以我們有禁車條款那我先想請教次長禁車條款訂定之後到底什麼樣的狀況會加重騎行別說是豪車 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11113.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11143.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
豪宅還是還是有什麼包養很多女人這樣子的一個狀況但是問題是他們也可以切割啊比如說他他脫產到時候又不符合這個禁車條款所以我想請問一下次長你所謂的禁車條款的定義是什麼謝謝委員我想草案院版草案第50條的第二項有關於禁車條款的規定它不是加重即行的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11143.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11161.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
它是一個量刑的規定所以有第二項裡面的這六種情形那這個六種情形如果我們司法警察或者檢察官有發現我們把相關的事證提供給法院的法官那就這個六個情形的話請法院從眾量刑 對是量刑的 對量刑 那你們不會你們在起訴的時候也會根據這種計收條款的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11170.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11194.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
會 這個部分絕對是良心參考我們在起訴書裡面也一併帶這個會牽扯到說他可能不賠償被害人的損失再加上這個有近身的這些條件沒有啊 但是即便他賠償被害人的損失待會我有時間我會講你這個什麼和解那很多這裡面都犯罪集團啊 黑道啊他要跟你和解被害人不想和解有時候還不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11196.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11204.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那又是另外一個問題對 我知道我知道但是會有這樣的問題因為我先把先把focus在這個禁攝條款那我想請教一下部長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11206.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11231.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
部長就以您個人你覺得在什麼樣的狀況之下比如說我們今天看到詐騙集團他什麼樣的生活的豪奢的狀況之下法院應該從重量刑因為詐騙已經很可惡了你還可以過得這麼豪奢像既然這次有這個所謂的禁奢條款因為我自己提案也有禁奢條款你覺得在什麼樣的狀況之下應該加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11234.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11259.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
謝謝委員我們非常贊成委員的禁車條款的部分那現在我們看到了一般市面上如果你有豪車豪宅土地精品等等或者是說他到高單價的這個餐廳去用餐這個就是符合50條裡面的6款的這個部分的話我們就希望在禁車條款裡面把它加進去那假設我另外一個他如果包養很多很多人算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11260.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11289.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
也算吧養很多人包養包養小三之類的你說包養算算吧對不對我覺得這個部分怎麼樣讓我們的被害人的感情不要被這樣傷害另外就是講和解我們這次裡面有和解可以讓他減刑或者免除刑責但是非常重要的是這些黑道這些犯罪組織他如果是脅迫性和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11290.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11316.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
如果是脅迫性和解他根本不應該被減刑啊對不對他也不應該被免除刑責啊不是他以為他這個事件爆發他就可以賠錢了事所以我覺得在這一個部分如何保護被害人即便他在被詐騙之後還要不受脅迫不受脅迫然後被迫和解只是為了換來這些詐團他去免除刑責或者是減刑好不好這一點非常重要好以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11319.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11340.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
謝謝 我們感謝王宏威委員執行我們請侯孟愷委員主席謝謝 麻煩我們請警政署署長跟我們法務部次長請一下署長 請一下次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11344.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11373.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 署長我先請教12月1號我們打詐儀表板我們打詐詐騙的金額有多少12月1號就大概2億多2億多2億4千5百萬對 就是12月1號就是12月開始的沒錯 因為你現在打詐儀表板上面只有12月1號的數字昨天的還沒有出來對 昨天的應該是會在前天的會出來就是前一天的好 那9月呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11374.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11390.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
九月我們全台灣被詐騙的九月大概七十幾億吧六十七億十月大概六十億十一月大概五十九億五十九億九千萬所以其實十月跟十一月幾乎一樣就差不多六十億再加上您剛剛所證實我們雜案飆版的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11394.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11423.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
12月1號2億4500萬所以其實詐騙金額雖然有略幅的下降但是它會變成是有一個門檻平均一年都一天2億多一個月有60億的被詐騙金額這個是到目前為止這是客觀數據我們即便是已經講了那麼多過去還有講是說這都是有報案記錄的那有沒有未報案的黑數 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11424.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11450.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
也許有但是這個數據是絕對是真實的這個報案完之後用電腦間接很好嘛本席現在都是以一個科學的方向因為我們要共同努力就是要打擊詐騙嘛但現在的詐騙金額被詐騙金額不是一天一千萬兩千萬是一天一億兩億 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11451.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11479.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
而且一個月60億那即便是這個案件數字我們常講對於被害者來講他不是0跟100啊他不是那個金額的高低啊他是被騙了就是那麼多錢啊他的付出 他的損傷他一生的秩序就那麼多啊所以我們猜想是說以現在我們通過那麼多的法令不管是過去打詐是法打詐無法或是我們現在又在討論要更精進要加重刑責處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11480.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11503.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
署長你認為我們除了現在我們有做以外還有沒有可以更積極有效的方式所以我們這個詐謗條例在去年7月通過之後經過這一年來的這樣的施行我們認為還有要更經濟的地方所以我們今天要把詐謗條例的這個刑者刑罰的部分修得更更更更就是更嚴格一點沒錯讓他們付諸了代表這樣子你覺得還夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11507.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11526.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個當然還不夠或者是當然還不夠嘛所以說我們才想的是說怎麼樣各部會各司其實有更積極有效的作為嘛另外就是說剛剛有些委員有提的就是說除了這個更重以外對就是對於被害人最重要就是他的那個被害人能夠做返還嘛是這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11527.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11552.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
他是最重要的就是他的潛力本席也有參與連署就是說針對譬如說自首的部分如果說他不是非自願自首或是說他一定要達成一定金額這都是我們之後會逐條審查討論但是我昨天有注意到我們刑事警察局的這個科長跟我們的網紅也有上個節目他講到一句話我覺得真的是要我們所有行政部門大家引以為戒因為這句話也許它就是一個事實可是這個事實絕對不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11554.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11573.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
掛在我們中華民國掛在我們台灣的頭上他講什麼 他講說現在台灣已經變成是詐騙訓練兵訓練場 詐騙練兵場只要在台灣能夠詐騙成功的話世界各國都走得通那代表什麼代表台灣變成是詐騙培養基地詐騙練兵場 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11576.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11592.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我們可以接受這樣的一個形容嗎我覺得這個是這個講得太嚴重了太嚴重了但這句話是本席剛剛查的新聞資料是昨天一個網紅跟我們刑事警察局共同直播節目講出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11594.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11610.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
署長我不是要苛責這一個科長我現在講的是說如果說真的有講到這句話外界有形容或是外界認為說台灣嚴重詐騙嚴重這種程度變成是詐騙集團想要用新的方法新的手段新的科技來台灣嘗試 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11612.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11634.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
台灣嘗試通了然後他在其他世界各國詐騙那我們情何以堪我們警政署我們內政部我們法務部所有同仁大家可以接受嗎這口氣吞得下嗎所以我們才有更積極的防弊我們要用我們態度來告訴詐騙集團你不要想在台灣詐騙你敢來我們敢罰我們敢辦是吧是好來那法務部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11642.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11671.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
市長本席之前總質詢的時候就有講過9月的時候就有說現在新加坡因為他們要打詐所以他們把邊行納入了詐騙打詐的一個刑責除了原有刑責不變罰金關幾年刑責不變還有加入邊行那現在也新加坡三讀通過也一個多月了我們法務部有沒有了解說他們的成效我們會去了解會去了解是所以還沒有了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11674.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11698.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我來借用一下王世堅委員 我們執政黨委員他昨天上一個直播 他被主持人問到台灣民眾被詐騙一年超過1200億加黑數王世堅主張嚴刑峻法 邊刑能逼出上線能否對詐騙用邊刑 王世堅表態了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11700.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11714.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這是單一委員的說法但重點就是有媒體有報導超過七成的民眾認為如果邊形是有效能夠嚇阻詐騙的話我國應該採取用邊形更有九成二的民眾認為現在詐騙在台灣是嚴峻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11717.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11740.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那你不能發過態度立場是到現在人家都已經在施行了我常講說新加坡現在用邊形納入打造這是一個很好的實驗組我們不需要浪費社會成本我們就可以有一個實驗組來去看參考說他們有沒有效如果有效的話我們能不能做未來推動修法的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11741.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11764.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
市長上個禮拜本時沒有記錯的話司法法治委員會才開一個專案報告也是針對這個議題討論那你們不是照理講應該人家已經是實驗組了我們跟新加坡建立管道了解一下說他們現在的一個制度跟一個數據有下降我們也可以提出來幫忙我們的警察同仁嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11765.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11793.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
給警察同仁武器工具讓他們去對付詐騙犯的時候講嘛你們敢詐騙台灣有邊形如果未來我們可以推動的話讓他們嚇阻他們啊法務部你們的態度能不能再更積極一點我想新加坡這個部分三讀是通過啦但是他們還沒公佈啦這個還沒所以相關的數據啦還有個案呢我們還沒收集到那我們有沒有建立管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11794.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11817.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我們建立跟新加坡的管道我們這邊都有法務秘書跟警務秘書我們當然會有聯繫至於說我們的往來那個就方便來 次長其實你要講說新加坡他們沒有公告等等但是媒體報導都已經有其實這是一個政府態度的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11819.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11833.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
讓詐騙犯知道新加坡當已經納入邊形之後他有恐嚇嚇阻的效果就可以防範犯罪我提高犯罪之後的成本犯罪人他就會評估說那我就不要來這邊犯罪他可能就會離開嘛不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11837.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11866.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這就是法治國家社會的ABC就是說如果說我們針對這樣不然我們今天討論為什麼我們今天討論是說連這些相關法則要提高也是一樣我們希望達到這個效果啊我們沒有說我們我們要傷害無辜的民眾無辜民眾你不犯罪提高再關一百年你也不會關到你但重點是你敢犯罪的話有權責有層級你騙多少錢我要關多少騙多少錢要關多少不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11867.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11878.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
行政院版本不是也是這樣子嗎是啊所以我們現在才講的是說除了這個以外那人家已經有一個實驗組了你不能到目前為止還是被一問三不知啊你能夠接受你能夠接受我剛剛講的台灣是個詐騙練兵場 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11885.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11909.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
台灣詐騙成功 世界就可以成功能夠接受嗎所以本期才講是說人家已經有個實驗組了那我們能不能了解對方的立法過程原由以及是不是真的有效果有效果我們可以來做後續的研究跟討論會研議所以建立管道 了解相關資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11911.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11938.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
公部門與公部門的管道讓我們立法委員後續也可以做參考本席再次強調當初跟總執行的時候我給行政院院長跟法務部部長半年的時間讓他們來收集相關資料以及掌握國內的民情也有媒體已經有報導有七成的民眾做過民調之後是支持死刑來打擊邊刑來打擊詐騙的這些都請法務部收集相關資料來做一個研議可以嗎是謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11941.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11964.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好 謝謝我們感謝侯孟楷委員質詢我們家林建祺委員林建祺委員不在我們家蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉不在我們家鄭振泉鄭振泉鄭振泉不在我們家李坤成委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11976.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12004.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
謝謝主席我們先請這個法務部的政務次長徐次長加政務次長委員好來 次長好今天我們要來審查這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例部分條文的修正草案那本席也有提案然後在第43條的部分就是說我將提高高額詐欺的刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12005.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12024.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
將要件從詐欺獲取之財物或財產上的利益修正為使人交付之財物或財產上的利益擴大這一個本罪的適用範圍這個在你們的說明的第22頁裡面目前法務部的態度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12030.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12047.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
目前跟委員所提出來的版本那委員是100萬然後1000萬跟1億成績化是這樣那跟我們現在願版出來的是一樣的所以我們就是希望說本來是說那個獲取 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12050.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12079.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
財務上的或是利益上的利益嘛我們把它擴大成交付嘛對要放在被害人那一端不可以在行為人這一端行為人這一端就有解釋的空間但是被害人交付是一個客觀的比較精確的事實所以會比較準一點好那這方面應該是沒有應該是有共識的謝謝委員支持好那不過現在我就要問一個就是說因為我看這兩天新聞都有在討論的就是一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12079.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12091.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
台北市一個清潔隊員他撿到一個一個丟棄的電鍋然後就轉送給一個死荒的婦人然後遭遇貪污自罪條例起訴那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12092.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12120.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
士林地方法院12月2號宣判那處這一位親協隊員三個月的徒刑緩刑兩年 持多公權一年這其實對我們來講就是說因為他是善意好心然後也是一個廢棄的一個電鍋也不是具有很大的一個價值那針對這件事情法務部強調說小兒貪污案的修法在2024年已經呈報行政院審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12121.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12147.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
將配合相關修法事宜推動修法那我請教一下法務部目前的這個修法的這個狀況報告委員現在在行政院審查中那你們所提出來的重要的內容在哪裡最主要是以前是減輕期刑現在可以免除期刑就是說他的會減到三分之二不過這個這樣的行為還是要就是有緩刑的機會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12150.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12174.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
這個其實我們的法院也是做了很多的處理它是在貪污治罪條例第六條第一項第三款最輕本行五年以下有期徒刑的這個框架之下運用多項減刑規定達到一個極限的操作其實可見法官也知道第一個它的財產的價值極低定過殘存才32.56塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12176.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12203.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
動機單純然後比例原則的權衡因為它過去都是非常清白的然後如果它只是因為這樣子轉送了一個價值32.56塊的這個老舊的電鍋就會判處五年以上的有期徒刑違反罪行相當原則那這個情節輕微與社會的通念那這個跟法院我們的判決也強調說情節輕微與否應與一般社會通念審酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12205.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12226.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那所以說這個才會有說你們自己也發現到了這個問題所以你們才會從這一個貪污治罪條例裡面你們針對這個小額貪污的這部分有做出了一個處理吧能不能請次長再說得更清楚一點謝謝委員我想就是因為其實這個貪污治罪條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12227.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12245.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我們宿攤這是本部還是堅持的一個立場當然啦 宿攤大家都支持啦所以我們在審酌這些事情當然就會非常的謹慎那當然就會有時候會遇到這種情形法重的時候那我們才會想到說我們在貪污之間條例第12條我們就試著把它修改成如果是極輕微的這個案子我們應該可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12251.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12276.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
減輕或免除期刑如果符合相關的條件的話最多可以減到三分之二那法院也可以因為個案的可以免除期刑判決所以這個對於那種情境法重的情況之下就可以適用那因為這個是地方法院的判決吧那如果說法務部的這一個修正案通過的話應該也沒辦法回溯適用到這一位清潔隊員吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12281.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12301.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
對被告有利的話可以適用但是如果確定就沒有了現在地方法院可以回溯嗎我說案子如果沒有確定法律修改的話就上訴的話就有可能就有機會所以說因為現在是地方法院所以他可以可以到這個高等法院嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12302.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12328.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
這個案子可以 他的刑度是可以就是說他的本刑是可以的那所以就是說我第一個強調的是這個比例原則啦大貪那跟這一個我們所講的這一個情節比較輕微的這個小兒貪污那第二個就是你講到就是說我們要避免這一個情輕法重的一個荒謬的一個現象那當然我們也要注意就是說這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12329.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12357.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
要明確去區分違俄的善意的行為跟實質貪污那貪污我們當然就是要研辦但是我們也不要讓人家覺得說好像是違俄的貪污除罪化這也要避免那就是說你怎麼可以讓這個違俄貪污除罪化就是說這個的界限大家要分清楚有關於貪污這部分的話那當然一定要法辦 要研辦但是像這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12358.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12380.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這個清潔隊員他本身是基於善意他死荒老人他覺得說那如果有個電鍋可以讓他吃點比較溫熱的東西的話他就轉贈給他價值也很低三十幾塊那結果你就這個我們用這一個貪污治罪條例最輕就五年那這樣顯見不合理嘛那所以這個案子你說送到這個行政院那這個進度咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12385.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12410.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們8月15號最後一次審查完卷就等行政院院會如果通過的話就可以送過來我是覺得剛好利用這個機會來審視就是說你們所提出來這一個修改的這個法案不要說因為這件事情因為就我們常人來講的話這個不是一個最大惡極的貪污但是用到這個貪污治罪條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12410.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12420.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
五年的出行其實是過重了但是也要避免就說好像這個違行的貪污我們把他出罪的話也不是這個用意不可以這樣謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝李坤臣委員質詢我們中島12點沒要休息繼續開會跟我們家楊瓊瑩委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12439.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12443.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請部長請保釘委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12452.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12474.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
部長好 我們繼續來討論現在坊間社會對於詐騙的這個事件是大家非常地希望政府有能力從源頭來歸管所以本期要跟你討論的是說平台的審核如果是私人的它可能構成在整個詐騙的一個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12475.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12491.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
就存入Meta旗下的FB IG長期充斥一些假名人與一夜市的詐騙廣告那這些詐騙它利用了跨境的帳號與很短生命週期網站的大量投放 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12491.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12513.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那形成了它非常低的一個成本高收益的詐騙供應鏈那所以Meta的廣告呢它的查核機制沒有辦法去阻斷這樣子的一個此類的內容那麼只能夠要求民眾你靠著你的FB是不是藍勾勾啊或者是你廣告透明度的工具來自行判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12514.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12536.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那等於是平台在收取高額的廣告費用的時候把風險跟執行的成本轉嫁給使用者跟政府所以本席要來請教也就是說目前為止我們政府介入的點主要是在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12538.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12560.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
報告委員我想我們政府要介入的點第一個要法制非常的健全我們從那個打詐新司法過以後我們發現在以數位為主的大家全力支持打詐司法我知道但是譬如說像資通安全管理法或者是數位平台這個部分的法制上不是很健全所以我們現在跟Meta這樣的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12560.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12588.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
在處理有關他的詐騙廣告要罰真的比較不容易這個這樣子的法律工具是不足的狀況之下對所以我們現在也只能說請我們的這個警政署盡量盡量來那個看能不能強化跨部會的平台治理在原則裡面減少不然你談到這裡本席直接跟你切入討論是因為本席請問你說我們能夠介入的點在哪裡就是介入到被害人受騙了之後然後打了一個165 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12590.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12609.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
他希望要這樣子去攔截所以你在執行的過程當中你只是在處理受害者的結果端而已你目前為止在做的是這樣子本期要跟你討論的也就是在犯罪源頭應該是你要掌控在平台的投放跟審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12611.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12631.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這個非常重要因為你國家如果是只是在承擔在末端的時候承擔金融機構警政跟民眾的風險那詐騙機關當然他甚至這個技術一直在提升跨境投放的方式的規模他去形成了一個犯罪的一個平台出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12632.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12651.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以本期希望就是說在整個平台在技術跟審查上面如果他失能了構成公共安全的一個破口的時候部長你是不是支持在我們平台審核失效的時候我們應該要刻意罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12653.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12669.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那你才能夠從根源那避免才能夠有主柵的這個責任才不會永遠都是落在整個末端處在已經犯罪以後的打擊犯罪那前面的預防的部分就是我剛所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12670.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12688.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
就是可能要速發部一起配合的狀況才有可能跟Meta這樣的大公司來做比較好的討論的方案你不只是速發部 你警政署你們自己內部也通通都要跨部會的去巡查因為坊間都問我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12689.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12715.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我們這麼支持的打詐司法但是現在根本沒有辦法去阻詐所以政府要做的除了是末端人民已經承受了末端的一個風險那政府更應該從源頭來做處理所以本席再次請問也就是在整個平台審核失效的時候我們是不是應該要去研議刻意罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12717.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12733.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
報告委員就是我們在那個炸防條例的33條裡面確實也有請這個網路的平台業者要能夠按照我們的這個這樣的法律上面來處理有關詐騙的部分那但是到目前為止我們站在我們這個警政 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12734.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12761.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
警政的立場上面的裁罰機制Meta公司只有1600元或者是沒有一線下架詐騙廣告只有250萬我想這樣的金額大概少了好幾個零所以Meta公司就是哇你這句話太好了你自己政府也本身知道少了好幾個零所以我們的工具不足那我們要怎麼辦政府要怎麼辦所以我們現在工具不足的話還是需要跨部會一起來處理會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12763.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12765.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那你在什麼時候可以去研擬方案出來呢因為你看現在打詐是否過後政府自己本身也知道是不足夠的不足夠要提出啊你已經知道問題點在哪裡那你應該要提出我們知道它的嚴重性看起來罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12783.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12797.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
罰款大概不足以去去做這樣子這麼大的這個打擊像那個Meta這樣的一個平台上面所提供的這個詐騙所以我們會想辦法就是如果有很嚴重的這個犯罪詐欺的嫌疑的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12798.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12824.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
是不是限制他的接取 瀏覽或者是移除甚至是用禁止的方式讓他不要從事平台的工作那這樣的部分還是必須要有完成法律要件之下我們才能夠處理你知道問題點在哪裡所以政府應該有所作為而不是任由民眾在末端承受這個風險我知道 我非常了解我知道 你也知道現在通告在哪裡你外部時間可以拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12827.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12834.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
但是不覺得我一個補位可以付錢啊啊你要去說啊 你是下去想補啊你這樣子推 那我要問誰啊今天英明的召集人把你請來啊我們當然是問你啊我們也好幾個部會啊你跨部會要怎麼去研擬出來呢我們現在就是會多管齊下我剛跟委員報告了就是我們如果法律要見那你多管齊下 你們要趕快跨部會剛剛北市已經說了嘛有啦趕快去研擬好不好 我都笑不出來這兩天 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12854.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12871.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
這兩天我們會根據這個會做一個比較好的像我其實有跟我委員回應過包括我們資通安全管理法它的執法12月1號才生效我們要回溯回去然後我們可不可以針對這個平台業者來做限制接取我們會想辦法你也說這個問題是非常的嚴肅你也知道問題點在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12876.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12888.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
所以本席還是具體建議 趕快跨部會去研擬你認為工具不夠的 要怎麼樣工具我們一定要主戰 讓民眾還給他們可以生活的這個社會面向嘛是好 謝謝 我們感謝楊雄英委員這層我們黃珊珊委員這層 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12907.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12910.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
謝謝主席我請法務部市長市長我想今天又在這邊看到你們的打詐條例46 47條的修正案其實還是蠻難過的一年多前我們在這邊審過了以後法院不理你不理你必須還要開一個什麼最高法院的大法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12934.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12955.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
他們否決了我們的立法意志然後請你們提對岸又拖了大半年其實這個真的叫做姍姍來遲但是姍姍來遲總是要來的那今天這個這個法案我看到你們的確是有所改善因為犯罪所得的認定變成法院自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12956.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12985.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
自由新政這是不對的因為對他們來說他們是用很傳統的法律解釋但是立法一直跟我們原來本來就要去規範的對象應該有很大的差別我想問你一下你跟司法院溝通好了沒溝通好了上一次在我們委員會審的時候司法院說沒看過你的版本現在看過了沒那一次的時間比較重出好 今天司法院有來嗎我們請他們上來背書一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12986.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13007.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
來加司法院上次說沒看過當場拿出來你們第一次看到然後讓我們立法委員覺得很詫異兩個院之間不聯絡坐在現場不回答我們去年通過的案子你們也在現場司法院回去也不跟刑事庭溝通現在溝通好了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13011.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13034.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這個版本是我們在行政院會是有跟這個法務部已經有做一個溝通那你們跟你們自己的刑事廳的法官們溝通好了沒我們除了這個所謂高額詐欺不要再發聲你們都溝通完了結果法院的法官從來不知道你們在溝通什麼除了43條以外這個部分可能還跟法務部這邊意見還有意見那你們來這邊幹嘛呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13036.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13053.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
其他都一致46 47沒問題了犯罪所得沒問題了然後不會再發生法官判決跟立法意旨衝突的地方這個部分我們有在法官論壇上也有張貼然後對於法官有一些疑問我們也都有解惑他們有表示意見的部分你們都已經釐清了 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13055.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13081.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
好我希望這一次是最後一次一個法律送到立法院來司法院跟法務部溝通來了之後判決跟立法一直完全不同這不應該是一個負責任的行政單位尤其是司法院的廳長都在現場這不能再發生今天所有人都講大家都聽到了再發生同樣的問題我想各位就要負責啦可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13083.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13106.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
市長你確定你都溝通完了你確定明年不會再發生什麼大法庭的解釋把立法院跟法務部的臉全部打一遍因為我剛才有聽到他們還有一點意見還有一點意見那就跑在立法院了這不是很扯嗎所以這個必須要由他們自己來說明來 什麼意見先再說不要回去再說你們另外有意見他們是對於那個43條我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13111.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13135.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
成績化是一百一千一億嘛那他們對於這個一百萬他認為金額太低了就是因為一百萬一百萬他認為太低了就是等於是太低他這個是三年以上十年以下有期徒刑他是強制辯護的案子所以他變成說金額太低又強制辯護對法院來說很大的負擔法服的費用會暴增那司法院你怎麼辦你希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13136.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13158.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那現在是院版的版本送來這邊然後你們自己要不要先打一架呢我們是希望說不要說一次從五百萬降到一百萬幅度這麼大那如果說能夠再比一百萬再著雨提升的話那這樣會比較好所以這個已經不是我們立法院的事啦是你們兩個院紀要協調好我是今天才聽到因為這個是我們院版出來了又來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13160.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13170.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這就是我為什麼覺得很緊張這個法修完之後明天再也沒工了今天重點是你們在進立法院之前就應該搞定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13171.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13198.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
進立法院之後在這邊尋答還有這種問題的話我很擔心這個法明天法院又有不同的意見這個法到時候又發生罕格怎麼辦我沒有什麼意見你們趕快自己去搞定我們還是希望委員能夠支持我們院版的我們支持你們嚴格版但是司法院覺得有這個問題你們是不是要去理清楚我沒有意見只要趕快修不要再拖了 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13199.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13224.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
已經拖了大半年了大半年這就中間是空窗期所有的人車手只要說我只拿三千塊他交完三千塊就結束然後第二個上次我質詢的時候拿出來的是民間的這些詐騙集團這些成員拿出來說起訴書跟判決書就是他最好的履歷表他可以去下一個詐騙集團應徵而且會得到高位中華民國的法院判決竟然是他的履歷表 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13226.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13243.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
如果我們還讓這些詐騙集團這麼輕重司法院你們100萬500萬我們沒有意見快做快就好了第二個如果真的是造成所謂強制辯護那你們要怎麼修正你們要提出修正意見而不是只是說我們覺得這樣很麻煩但是沒有自己的意見多久可以給我答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13249.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13269.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
謝謝委員那這部分我們回去會跟這個我們的回去沒有時間了啦12月底以前至少這個法在我們修正要審查處理的時候這個答案要出來我們會提出一個相對應的這就請召委在排在排案審查的時候這種時候不應該還說我們還有意見浪費大家時間好嗎不要再浪費我們時間我已經等了兩年了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13277.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13294.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
謝謝 我們感謝黃珊珊委員諮詢在這裡要說 您剛才說環俄法府的案件抱歉 今天都沒想到比海賊越來越多 當然也要越趕快 有100萬開始省了來 抱歉 我們這裡是新營委員諮詢抱歉 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13309.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13316.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
好謝謝主席在座各位大家好本席有請這個法務部次長徐次長加次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13321.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13344.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
市長上次好像也是在這裡本期有諮詢有關不起訴處分人受告誡這件事我們現在很多民眾都是受害者我相信您也認同他們不起訴處分之後如果沒有辦法在30天的訴願期他就必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13345.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13373.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
告誡賬戶就要5年嘛那本席請教一下那這個行政法的部分他這這法條規定30天的溯源期有可能比如說延長一點嗎有沒有可能這個30天是救濟期間沒有辦法應該是沒有辦法延長可以修嗎是根據那個溯源法跟行政訴訟法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13375.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13377.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那可以調整嗎這個除非修法嘛對啊修法 否則不行那這樣五年的告誡賬戶有可能縮短嗎也是法律的規定啊這個應該是那個金管會是金管 上次有問到我現在就問你你這個我們法 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13405.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13416.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
法務部的立場市長市長這暫停一下他們這個在溝通能不能請我們主任檢察官報告主任檢察官好那簡單說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13419.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13447.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
報告委員就有關於告誡的部分的話是依照洗錢防治法22條第6項所授權的執法具有它的相關法律效果那就22條的部分這邊有關於告誡的規定那判斷上還是以交付賬戶這件事情到底是不是有正當理由去做判斷它未必是跟是否存在幫助詐欺到底成不成立犯罪是切開來判斷的意思切開判斷我的意思就是說因為很多民眾不生其擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13448.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13458.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這個有沒有可能五年減成三年依情節他只要是告誡他只要是詐欺賬戶就一定是五年是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13461.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13488.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
不一定有跟詐欺有關它就是交付帳戶這種沒有正當理由的交付就是五年所以這個五年是不可能縮的這個有評估過大概就是五年有點像觀察一樣不可能縮的原因你一定要給社會大眾一個交代你看那一堆人留言所以我們要站在法務部的立場我要聽你們的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13489.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13493.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
為什麼五年不可能變三年原因是什麼對 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13497.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13524.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
還有一點就是說這個不是完全就是封鎖他的帳戶的使用我知道他臨櫃他有一些限制就是很不便這個其實他的立法的目的就是在於說不能輕易的在沒有任何理由正當的理由就把帳戶交出去這個設計上應該是可以兼顧很多你現在是在講你的目的我們都了解我現在再給你一點時間我時間其實快沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13525.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13554.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
等於是為什麼不能縮短就是只能五年這個我們可能要再會後再研因為你們沒有思考過嘛好 那我接著講沒錯 這五年就是要告誡就像為什麼殺人那有一定重的刑責就是你不能去殺人嘛但是本席要說的是我們現在很多民眾他並不清楚這個然後在不清楚 很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13555.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13579.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
无辜的民众那他不清楚他就就产生了这个情况然后也很不生其道生活上也造成很大蛮大的困扰那所以这个的宣导是不是很重要我们都有持续在宣导可能不是不止我们包括我们内政部还有相关的教育部都有在宣导所以这个宣导 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13580.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13600.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
有没有成效才是问题当然我们常常行政单位都有宣导但是我们就看112年到114年到今年10月112年6月开始到114年10月这5年的告诫账户开始是在112年6月到现在 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13601.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13622.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
光是法務部詐欺案件中不起訴就有148192件這中間真正撤銷告誡賬戶的只有935件不到1%所以等於99.3%的人呢37%的人呢通通這5年就要承受這個苦果 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13622.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13647.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
所以我們希望這個宣傳真的要加強很快的我要再來到我們今天詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條46條 次長我想請教你這46條是你們法務部寫出來的條文嗎你就回答我簡答是不是行政院版是你們寫出來的條文你看看這個條文的精神是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13648.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13672.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
也就是說詐欺犯了詐欺犯罪的他如果自首之後他要能夠減輕或免除期刑他必須要支付被害人達成他調解或和解的全部金額他要支付全部金額又或者是他在供出首腦你有沒有去問過 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13676.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13700.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
你們這個是根本是mission impossible這有可能嗎他根本付不出金額包委員這個我解釋一下這一個和解他的用意因為有可能他車手他經濟能力是不夠你今天叫他整個詐騙的金額整個交付的所有的金額就是幕後的這個首腦他所有的金額都到叫這個車手來付那當然是 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13701.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13720.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
他付不起可是他個別他可以解釋他的狀況他認為說我擔任的角色我獲得的利益我的能力各方面的態度我都自首了我自白了等一下因為你這個是要跟被害人達成和解我告訴你被害人如果他被騙3000萬你認為車手拿多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13725.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13747.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
車手他可能拿不到搞不好拿10萬好那要和解的時候被害人有可能說好啊那沒關係啊你就給我10萬他10萬可能也拿不出來還有根本不可能和解因為我被騙3000萬我怎麼可能覺得我就10萬塊這第一個第二個你們這法條很好笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13748.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13772.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
你第一個要這個和解的金額全部支付之後如果你還能夠供出你的首腦為什麼不是他願意供出首腦不用有第一項支付這個金額他願意供出首腦你也給他免除期刑啊你這樣才能鼓勵他供出首腦啊所以你們這個法條我真的覺得恐龍法條欸這個部分還有再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13778.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13797.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
你這個部分本席提的可不可以調整因為我們還沒審嘛你的見解是什麼今天我最重要我要他供出首腦他願意供出首腦他錢交達不成和解交不出來我一樣可以免除期刑啊供出首腦這個被害人會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13798.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13811.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
有感受的問題所以你這個是考慮到被害人當然這其中一個原因就是說你還是要填補你不能光一隻嘴巴說我要那最後執行面你這個和解在哪裡和解你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13811.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13839.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
和解沒有設任何的條件他可以在警察局他可以在律師事務所或者公害場所都可以和解不是誰要來協助他和解你沒有設任何的你這執行面有可能嗎今天一方要和解我們有鄉鎮市調解委員會也可以調解所以你們竟然是設定鄉鎮市調解委員會沒有說設定就是說調解他沒有任何不是你這個法條出來我就問你你這個和解的單位在哪裡誰來負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13840.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13861.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
因為你這法條如果通過我問你誰來和解誰來調解所以調解委員會法院也可以調解對我知道就這兩個我就等你說這兩個法院可以調解象徵是調解委員會也可以調解以現在詐騙案幾十萬件幾百萬件你確定OK我在這裡請你們回去審慎思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13862.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13886.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
調解委員會各鄉鎮市區公所我們就在猜這是給鄉鎮市區公所調解嗎還是法院來調解法院有這個能量嗎鄉鎮市區公所這個的調解OK嗎所以我們是因為時間的關係不過我們在審查的時候我想也要好好的來討論我今天時間的關係你們回去好好想想 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13887.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13909.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好 謝謝 我們感謝習新穎委員質詢我們家葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝委員不在我們家丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠委員不在我們家陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13914.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13933.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
今天定期發言的委員除了不在庭以外全都已經發言完畢 審討結束委員來賓有鄧學忠 高進 宿美 吳清明 林柱英所提出書面執行列入紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13935.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13942.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
刊登公報 書面的這項及未答候的部分將相關單位一週以書面答覆並複製本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13950.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13957.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
處理法案報告委員會現在進行法案審查簽讀討論事項所有條文修正動議一邊宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13970.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13989.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
第七條行政院提案第一項同線型條文增訂第二項司法警察機關得以必要範圍內將疑似詐欺犯罪被害人身份資料提供金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員以利其執行業務時得據以對客戶關懷勸導或通知司法警察機關到場 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13991.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14016.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
委員賴瑞隆等17人提案第一項同線條文增訂第二項司法警察機關基於防治詐欺犯罪之必要得於特定目的範圍內將其依報案記錄經留異常太陽或其他足自認定之資料所辨識之疑似被害人身份資料提供金融機構及虛擬資產服務業者使其於執行業務時得及早進行關進行關懷提示必要之勸導程序或通知司法警察機關到場處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14017.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14044.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
其资料提供之种类范围目的及保护措施由中央主管机关会商金融主管机关及法务主管机关定之委员李坤诚等23人提案同行政院提案第8条行政院提案第一项同线性条文第二项修正为金融机构及提供虚拟资产服务知识业或人员执行前项后段规定作业或有辨识疑似涉及诈欺犯罪交易之必要时得召会其他金融机构或提供虚拟资产服务知识业或人员 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14044.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14065.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
受召会者应提供相关资讯第三项末段修正为由金融主管机关定之增订第四项及第五项为防止诈欺犯罪得有银行法第47条之三锁定经营金融机构间资金移转账户清算至金融资讯服务事业或经营金融机构间征信资料处理交换至服务事业建立平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14066.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14082.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
协助金融机构或提供虚拟资产服务知识业或人员进行同业或跨业合作于必要范围内搜集处理及利用客户资讯并以科技方式分析及辨识疑似涉及诈欺犯罪之异常存款账户电子支付账户信用卡或虚拟资产账号 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14082.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14102.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
前項平台之建立及合作之進行應有銀行法第47條之三鎖定經營金融機構間資金與轉賬戶清算之金融資訊服務事業或經營金融機構間徵信資料處理交換之服務事業向金融監督管理委員會申請核准後實得辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14102.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14122.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
申請核准應檢附之文件及其他應遵行事項之辦法由金融監督管理委員會定之委員賴瑞榮等17人提案第二項修正為金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務知識業或人員執行前項後段規定作業或有辨識疑似涉及詐欺犯罪交易之必要時得基於詐欺交易之疑似特徵或客戶行為異常 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14123.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14147.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
於必要範圍內向其他金融機構或虛擬資產服務業者為跨業召會受召會者應本於善良管理人注意義務提供必要且相當之資訊其餘同行政院提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案第九條行政院提案第一項第二項同線性條文第三項末段修正為由金融主管機關會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14148.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14160.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
增订第四项司法检察机关应调查诈欺犯罪的主动通知金融机构及提供虚拟资产服务之事业或人员将疑似涉及诈欺犯罪之存款账户电子支付账户信用卡或 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14162.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14180.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
虛擬資產帳號列為警示並暫停全部交易功能委員賴瑞隆等17任提案增訂第四項司法警察機關就調查中發現之疑似涉及詐欺犯罪帳戶或虛擬資產帳號得及疑於急迫性及必要性主動通知相關金融機構或虛擬資產服務業者將疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之存款帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14181.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14210.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
電子支付帳戶信用卡或虛擬資產帳號列為警示戶並暫停全部或部分交易功能但應與合理期間內完成查證並通知是否維持或解除控管其餘通行政院提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案第10條行政院提案第1項前段之聯防通報機制修正為同業及跨業聯防通報機制第3項末段修正為由金融主管機關會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14210.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14231.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
委員賴瑞隆等17人提案委員李昆成等23人提案同行政院提案第11條行政院提案第一項修正為金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員依第9條第一項後段或第4項司法檢察機關通知暫停全部交易功能之帳戶或帳號中有被害人會轉入之款項或虛擬資產未經提領者 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14231.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14249.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
得依司法警察機關之通知發還帳戶或帳號內剩餘款項或虛擬資產第二項末段修正為由金融主管機關會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之委員賴瑞龍等17人提案第一項後段修正為於切任匯款人為被害人後得依司法警察機關之通知發還帳戶或帳號內剩餘款項或 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14252.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14280.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
虚拟资产 其余同行政院提案委员李坤成等23人提案同行政院提案第13条行政院提案第一项续文中断及第二项中断之中央金融主管机关修正为金融主管机关 其余同行行条文委员赖瑞龙等17人提案同行政院提案委员李坤成等23人提案第一项罚还额度修正为新台币50万元以上200万元以下第二项罚还额度修正为新台币300万元以上1000万元以下其余同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14282.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14296.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
委員黃婕等16人提案修正第31條第一項序文後段增訂並將相關資訊建置於公開之廣告庫至該廣告被刊登後滿一年為止增訂第一項第五款至第八款 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14296.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14314.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
五 推播广告至参数设定六 广告刊登之时间其广告是否曾因违反其服务条款而被移除或被限制其可见度八 广告于我国境内之总处及人次及其第五款所定之特定群体处及人次其与同现行条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14316.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14338.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
委員黃婕等16人提案增訂第31條之一網路廣告平台業者應設置線上聲明機制使其內容創作者得以聲明所提供之內容構成廣告網路廣告平台業者接獲聲明後應依本法規定標示為廣告網路廣告平台業者應設置線上通知機制使其使用者得以通知其認為應標示而未標示為廣告之內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14340.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14355.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
網路廣告平台業者接獲通知之後應進行處理對於確認未依前項規定聲明為廣告之內容應依本法規定標示為廣告並得採取限制流量或移除內容等必要措施第四十條委員黃婕等16人提案增訂第一項第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14356.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14380.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
為依第31條之一標示為廣告原第5款第6款一列第6款第7款其餘同現行條文第42條行政院提案中斷之各目的事業主管機關及司法警察機關修正為各目的事業主管機關或司法警察機關其餘同現行條文委員賴瑞龍等17人提案委員李坤成等23人提案同行政院提案第43條行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14381.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14410.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
翻刑法第339條之四之罪使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣100萬元者的處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣3000萬元以下罰金使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1000萬元者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金使人交付之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1億元者處7年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣5億元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14411.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14428.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
委員翁曉琳等25人提案第43條犯刑法第339條之四之罪詐欺獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣500萬元者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣1000萬元以上5000萬元以下罰金因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14429.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14452.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
一億元者處十年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以下十億元一億元以上十億元以下罰金委員吳佩義等17人提案後段修正為因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣一千萬元者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以下罰金因犯罪獲取之財物或 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14453.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14478.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
财产上利益达新台币1亿元者除7年以上有期徒刑得并科新台币3亿元以下罚金其余同行行条文委员赖瑞龙等17人提案最末段修正为得并科新台币10亿元以下罚金其余同行政院提案委员李昆城等23人提案将罚则分别修正为5年以上10年以下有期徒刑7年以上12年以下有期徒刑及9年以上有期徒刑其余同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14479.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14497.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
委員侯孟楷等17人提案後段修正為因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1000萬元者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金因犯罪獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1億元者處7年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣5億元以下罰金其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14498.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14520.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
第44條行政院提案第一項之第三項同現行條文第四項修正為犯詐欺犯罪非屬刑事訴訟法第284條之一第一項之第一審應行合議審判案件並准用同條第二項規定為翁曉琳等25人提案第三項修正為發起主持操縱或指揮犯罪組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14521.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14538.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
而犯第一項之罪者處十年以上有期徒刑得並科新台幣十億元以下罰金其餘頭現行條文委員賴瑞龍等17人提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案第46條行政院提案犯詐欺犯罪與犯罪後自首並與自首之日起六個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14539.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14566.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
支付与被害人达成调解或和解之全部金额者得减轻或免除其刑前项情形并因而查或发起主持操纵或指挥诈欺犯罪组织之人的或得以扣押该组织所取得全部财被害人交付之所有财物或财产上利益者得免除其刑台湾民众党党团提案第46条犯诈欺犯罪于犯罪后自首并与被害人于第一审言辞辩论终结前达成调解或和解并 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14566.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14594.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
己負被害人全部調解或和解經驗惡者得減輕或免除其刑並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者免除其刑委員蘇巧慧等22人提案第46條犯詐欺犯罪與犯罪後自首且如有犯罪所得自重繳交其犯罪所得者得減輕或免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14595.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14614.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
前項其行並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人交付之財物或財產上利益或查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人或與法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得免處其行 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14614.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14617.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
委員黃婕等21人提案第46條犯詐欺犯罪與犯罪後自首於法院延遲辯論終結前將被害人就本案因詐欺犯罪所交付全部財務或財產上利益無條件提存者得減輕或免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14628.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14644.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
支付与被害人达成调解或和解支全部金额者一同前向情形并因而查获发起主持操纵或指挥诈欺犯罪组织之人或得以扣押该组织就本案所取得全部被害人交付之财务或财产商利益者得免除期薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14645.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14662.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
委員李博義等16人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得並賠償被害人所受損害者法院得審酌其賠償行為減輕或免除其刑其餘通現行條文委員翁曉琳等24人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14663.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14681.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首自動繳交其犯罪所得被害人受詐騙之財務及財產上利益或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解者其餘同線性條文委員賴瑞龍等17人提案委員李昆城等23人提案同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14682.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14712.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
委員羅志強等19人提案第46條犯詐欺犯罪於犯罪後自首填補被害人財物或財產上之損失或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解並給付被害人全部調解或和解金額者減輕或免處期刑並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查或發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織制人者免處期刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14713.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14739.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
第47條行政院提案犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並於檢察官偵查中首次自白之日起6個月內支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得減輕其刑前項請行併額查獲發起主持操縱或詐指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人獲得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人交付之所有財物或財產上利益者得減輕或免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14740.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14756.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第47條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解並給付被害人全部調解或和解金額者得減輕其刑並以而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14757.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14772.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查或發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織制人者減輕或免除其刑委員王美惠等18人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14773.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14789.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
且與被害人達成和解並填補被害人所受損害者得減輕其刑其餘同線性條文委員蘇巧慧等二十二人提案第四十七條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中全程均自白且如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者得減輕其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14791.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14810.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
前項情形並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部或被害人交付之財物或財產上利益或查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人或與法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得減輕或免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14810.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14828.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
委員黃婕等21人提案第47條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並於法院延遲辯論終結前將被害人就本案因詐欺犯罪所交付全部財物或財產商利益無條件提存者得減輕其刑支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者一統 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14829.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14848.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
前項情形並因而查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人或得以扣押該組織就本案所取得全部被害人交付製裁或產生利益者得減輕或免除其刑委員李博義等16人提案前段修正違犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並權而填補被害人所受損害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14849.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14878.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
或與被害人達成和解者減輕其刑其餘通線性條文委員李坤誠等20人提案第一項修正為第47條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並於法院延遲辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額者得減輕其刑未能與被害人達成調解或和解但已將被害人因詐欺犯罪所交付全部財務或財產上利益提存者異同第二項同行政院提案第二項委員翁曉琳等24人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14878.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14905.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
在偵查及歷次審判中均自白自動繳交其犯罪所得被害人受詐騙之財物及財產上利益或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解者其與同行政院 其與同縣行條文委員賴瑞榮等17人提案同行政院提案委員羅志強等19人提案第47條詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白填補被害人財物或財產上之損失或與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14907.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14923.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
或和解並給付被害人全部調解或和解金額者減輕其刑並因而使司法檢察機關或檢察官得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查或發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14924.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14950.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
第五十條行政院提案第一項同性型條文增訂第二項犯詐欺犯罪後犯罪行為人於賠償被害人所受全部損害或支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額前法院有應注意犯罪行為人有無下列事項為科刑輕重之標準依購買租賃或使用逾越一般人通常生活程度之商品或服務而達成逾越一般人通常生活程度之交通工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14950.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14973.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
三 为逾越一般人通常生活程度之投资四 进入逾越一般人通常生活程度之高消费场所消费五 赠予或借贷他人逾越一般人通常生活程度之财务六 每月生活费用逾越一般人通常生活之程度委员赖瑞龙等17人提案委员李坤成等23人提案同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14974.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15003.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
修正動議第46條第一項後段增訂或已達成調解和解並提供相當擔保按其履行者得減輕或免除其刑第二項後段增訂但其公訴或提供之證據對於查獲該組織有重大貢獻者不以符合前項規定為限增訂第三項第一項所定期間如有不可規則與行為人之事由法院得依申請或職權裁定延長之其與同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15003.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15006.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
提案人委员徐欣盈等三人宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15009.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15032.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
謝謝 在這裡我們請署判員跟法務部跟內政部 針對委員提案的跟秘書不一樣的意見我們先行協調整合討論署判所列入議案定期繼續審查本署的法規到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15037.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15039.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
結束,現在散會,拜託在這段時間,大家去協調一下,以上 |