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林淑芬 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:12,000 | 主席 各位大家午安 是不是請我們石部長 |
| 00:00:12,000 | 00:00:14,000 | 好 請石部長 |
| 00:00:14,000 | 00:00:18,000 | 好 委員好 |
| 00:00:18,000 | 00:00:24,000 | 部長 午安 我現在在這裡跟你溝通最重要的一個觀念 |
| 00:00:24,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 就是我們的石安法 它不是用來 只是用來事後究責 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:34,000 | 整個石安法最重要的精神是在於事前預防 |
| 00:00:34,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 這幾年發生這麼多的重大的石安事件以後 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 我們一修再修又修 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:45,000 | 從源頭管理 業者自主管理 追溯追蹤 HACCP |
| 00:00:45,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 到這一次我們還要再修 強化異常通報 品質管理及數位治理 |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:54,000 | 這整個核心概念非常的清楚 |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:59,000 | 所以石安絕對不能夠等到產品出事以後才補救 |
| 00:00:59,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 而是要讓風險在進入市場以前要被辨識 被通報 被處理 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 所以這個中聯這個獨有的案件 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:17,000 | 中聯它們全部都是HACCP的制度運作的 |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:22,000 | 從你們以前的所謂的2021年的 |
| 00:01:22,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 實用油脂工廠實施衛生管理及食品安全管制系統 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:29,000 | 概況的調查報告 |
| 00:01:29,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 我們就可以看得出來 裡面的調查報告說 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 他們的數據經常造假 那為什麼要經常造假 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:42,000 | 因為他們進行了危害分析以後要設管制點 |
| 00:01:42,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 設完管制點以後發現檢查起來都還是異常的話 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 他們要做矯正 矯正措施做好用 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:53,000 | 還要回去把他們的危害重新分析 |
| 00:01:53,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 然後再重新設管制點 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:01:57,000 | 你們的調查報告說 |
| 00:01:57,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 你們這次獨有事件來講說 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:03,000 | 他們都沒有設好管制點 沒有照落實 |
| 00:02:03,000 | 00:02:06,000 | 他們當然不能設好管制點 |
| 00:02:06,000 | 00:02:09,000 | 因為他們設的管制點還是不通過 |
| 00:02:09,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 所以他們的問題就是他們必須要造假 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 否則就不能符合HACCP |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 所以在這個過程裡面 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 整個危害預警的制度HACCP |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 是瓦解淪於紙上作業 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:27,000 | 這是我講過的 |
| 00:02:27,000 | 00:02:31,000 | 但是它並不是只是如此而已 |
| 00:02:31,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 我要講說從大家講了一整個早上 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:38,000 | 都在講台糖台糖 |
| 00:02:38,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 那所值的爭點都說 |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 到底有沒有通報義務或是沒有通報義務 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 我現在要告訴你 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:48,000 | 我不想只是談通報義務這個概念 |
| 00:02:48,000 | 00:02:53,000 | 不能夠只問責台糖有沒有通報義務 |
| 00:02:53,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 也不是只問責中聯要怎麼裁罰 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 怎麼處罰的更重 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:03:01,000 | 甚至說回到不是只有這樣子 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 因為對人民來講 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:07,000 | 我們希望不管食安法還是HACCP的制度 |
| 00:03:07,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 都能夠要發揮預警的作用 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 不能夠做到只是事後究責 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 還要事前預防 |
| 00:03:17,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 在這個地方我們知道台糖的責任 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 有沒有責任 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 釐清中聯這個始作俑者最過分的 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 我們要問責清楚 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 可是更重要的是 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 現行的食安法 |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 現行的HACCP制度 |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 現行的所有安全管理的制度 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 有沒有辦法讓重大的食安警訊 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 在供應鏈生產鏈的供應鏈的內部 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 你們就要掌握 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 不是只有業者掌握 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:50,000 | 現在的問題就是所有的重大的風險 |
| 00:03:50,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 在還沒成為產品以前就發現到的 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:57,000 | 不能只是業者知道 |
| 00:03:57,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 而是政府也要管制要知道 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:04,000 | 否則我們修了這麼多次的食安法 |
| 00:04:04,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 每一次發生單一事件 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:07,000 | 每一次發生單一事件 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 系統性的風暴 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 每次都還是在等下游減出鈔票 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 產品大家都吃下肚 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 等媒體大幅報導 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 然後吹哨者出現才開始補救 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 這個是不能夠這樣的 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 所以我今天就開始要來講說 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:28,000 | 中聯獨有案件 |
| 00:04:28,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 為什麼重大的食安警訊 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 卻斷訊在供應鏈的業者的內部 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:38,000 | 就斷訊了 |
| 00:04:38,000 | 00:04:40,000 | 我現在講的是這件事 |
| 00:04:40,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 當然我們的食安法一定要管理原料 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 這個是開宗明義就講 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:49,000 | 我們食安法不是只有管產品來管原料 |
| 00:04:49,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 但是在現行的第七條裡面 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:55,000 | 的確也規定 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 當你進入生產程序 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:02,000 | 成為產品發現異常才客折 |
| 00:05:02,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 業者要通報 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 可是這樣子是不行的 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 要管原料那什麼時候要管到哪裡 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:12,000 | 在客折通報的時候 |
| 00:05:12,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 沒有把原料這一環放進去 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 而獨有事件 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:19,000 | 台航事件 |
| 00:05:19,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 就是把重大的14.7PPB的原料 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 這個重大的風險 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 竟然斷訊在供應鏈的內部 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 政府不知道 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 更不要講人民 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 通通都不知道 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 而是大家都吃下肚了 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:38,000 | 所以我們在這裡要講說 |
| 00:05:38,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 高風險原料的管理 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 製程的管控監測的管制 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:45,000 | 這個是你們說 |
| 00:05:45,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 獨立調查的結果發現了很多原因 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 但是我們要講再講一遍 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 前面早就出現了風險訊號 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 譬如說原料的來源 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 傳奇的差異 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 油槽的檢驗 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 製程的參數 |
| 00:06:01,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 管制的界線 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 下游的檢驗 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 拒收退貨的紀錄 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 這些訊號 |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:10,000 | 通通沒有被整合 |
| 00:06:10,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 沒有進入主管機關的預警系統 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 也沒有變成跨縣市的 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 跨業者的 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 跨供應鏈的風險警示 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 所以在這種狀況裡面 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 我們通通都吃下肚以後 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 才發現問題 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 然後發現問題的時候 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 已經都來不及了 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 因為都吃進去了 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 一次又一次都是吃完了 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:34,000 | 才再說 |
| 00:06:34,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 啊你可以退貨 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:37,000 | 你可以退款 |
| 00:06:37,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 吃進去了 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 我的健康怎麼退款 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 我的健康怎麼退貨 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 所以我在這裡講清楚 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 這個問題不是先說在台糖一間公司 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:49,000 | 要怎麼做而已 |
| 00:06:49,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 也不是說台糖這個案子 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:53,000 | 要不要通報 |
| 00:06:53,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 有沒有通報義務 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:57,000 | 我們要講是問題有品 |
| 00:06:57,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 有沒有實際進入台糖工廠 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 重大的訊號就已經出現了 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 為什麼主管機關沒有同步掌握 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:09,000 | 今天是本篇皮 |
| 00:07:09,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 明天有可能是重金屬 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 農藥殘留 |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 塑化劑 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 黃麴毒素 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 或是其他污染物 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 只要制度面仍然只看到產品 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:23,000 | 有沒有進貨 |
| 00:07:23,000 | 00:07:25,000 | 所有權有沒有移轉 |
| 00:07:25,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 啊我沒有買啊 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 還在他那裡 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 業者有沒有製成自己的產品 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 如果只是制度面 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 現在的只看到這個 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 那麼主管機關就會 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 看不到供應鏈前端 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 已經出現的風險訊號 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:44,000 | 所以我再講一遍就是說 |
| 00:07:44,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 實驗法管制的精神 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 人民想要的制度 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 就是在成為產品以前 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:54,000 | 供應鏈的前端 |
| 00:07:54,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 就已經出現了風險的訊號 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 我們要怎麼來設計成政府 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:03,000 | 一定要就馬上介入和管制 |
| 00:08:03,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 實驗制度不能靠吹哨者 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 當最後一道防線 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 那都已經來不及 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:11,000 | 真正的預警制度 |
| 00:08:11,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 應該是重大的異常 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 發現了還停留在供應鏈 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:18,000 | 內部的時候 |
| 00:08:18,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 你就掌握資訊 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 交叉比對 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 採取行政措施 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:27,000 | 而不是等到爆發以後 |
| 00:08:27,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 才來究責 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 所以我再講一次 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 台糖不只是 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 有沒有現行通報的義務的問題 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 而是在於現行的制度 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:38,000 | 根本沒有確保 |
| 00:08:38,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 重大風險資訊 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 能夠立即及時的進入主管機關 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:46,000 | 這個東西很重要 |
| 00:08:46,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 那食安管理 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 更不能只看產品 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:53,000 | 這個原料的所有權是誰 |
| 00:08:53,000 | 00:08:58,000 | 還要看誰要負責掌握風險的資訊 |
| 00:08:58,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 部長你覺得呢 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:03,000 | 所以剛剛委員講到的HACCP |
| 00:09:03,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 我們也在這一次修法裡面提出 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 要強化那個HACCP的功能 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 包含他進場去查這個HACCP的過程 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:16,000 | 不是只有看文件 |
| 00:09:16,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 他還要做確效 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:19,000 | 他要去抽菸 |
| 00:09:19,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 這個我上一次質詢過了 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:21,000 | 對 |
| 00:09:21,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 現在的HACCP |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:23,000 | 然後各項的節點 |
| 00:09:23,000 | 00:09:26,000 | 沒有淪為紙上作業 |
| 00:09:26,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 造假成為常態 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 根本台灣不存在HACCP制度了 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 老實說 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:35,000 | 就現行的執行 |
| 00:09:35,000 | 00:09:37,000 | 屠法不足以自行 |
| 00:09:37,000 | 00:09:40,000 | 就現行有的法律在那裡 |
| 00:09:40,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 但是執行面所有HACCP業者 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 我可以在這裡大膽的假設 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 沒有人在執行管制的 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:54,000 | HACCP都造假的 |
| 00:09:56,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 我現在說屠法不足以自行 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 屠法不足以自行 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 現在要怎麼辦 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:05,000 | 以台糖為例 |
| 00:10:05,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 我們當然知道他跟中聯 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 跟南橋、泰山、福壽 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 他們的責任當然是不一樣 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:17,000 | 但是他們遇到了、知道了 |
| 00:10:17,000 | 00:10:21,000 | 這一個風險還是存在在那裡 |
| 00:10:21,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 所以誰要負責去掌握 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:26,000 | 公共食安風險的資訊 |
| 00:10:26,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 誰要負責 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 誰要負責 |
| 00:10:30,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 今天剪出了本評比14.7 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 已經不是單純買賣雙方 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 要不要交貨的問題 |
| 00:10:39,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 而是供食品製造使用的原料 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:45,000 | 出現重大的汙染訊號了 |
| 00:10:45,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 這個訊號沒有進入主管機關 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 你怎麼知道他後續有沒有封存 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 有沒有精煉 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:55,000 | 有沒有混批 |
| 00:10:55,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 有沒有轉賣掉 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 都不知道 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 因為都不知道 |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 所以在這個過程 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 變成有一個另一種假設狀況是 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 我們第七條第五項通報義務是說 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 自己的產品自己管 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 可是有一種狀況是 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:22,000 | 買方在供應商端驗收錢、取貨錢 |
| 00:11:22,000 | 00:11:23,000 | 都已經知道了 |
| 00:11:23,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 但也沒有收貨 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 就是台黨這種狀況 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 那他已經知道重大異常 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 尚未收貨、現行法 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:33,000 | 管不到 |
| 00:11:33,000 | 00:11:35,000 | 這個風險怎麼辦 |
| 00:11:35,000 | 00:11:37,000 | 我們今天就是要來補這個洞 |
| 00:11:37,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 保定 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:42,000 | 今天就是要來補這個洞 |
| 00:11:42,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 這一個食安法的最核心 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:48,000 | 風險都在業者手上 |
| 00:11:48,000 | 00:11:51,000 | 主管機關你都不知道 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 台黨不是這批有的製造者 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:55,000 | 也不是收貨者 |
| 00:11:55,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 也不是後續的加工者 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 可是台黨掌握了中聯311號油槽14.7PBB |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 這個重大的污染的資訊 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 這個資訊就不能只限縮在是台黨 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 跟中聯之間的商業資訊 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:17,000 | 這是足以影響整個使用油脂供應鏈的 |
| 00:12:17,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 公共食安風險的資訊 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 所以要請問你部長 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 我們要不要討論 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 食品業者不管他有沒有買 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 所有權是誰的 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 只要你掌握了供應鏈中 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 重大食安異常的資訊 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:34,000 | 即便你沒有買、沒有收貨 |
| 00:12:34,000 | 00:12:36,000 | 要不要通報 |
| 00:12:36,000 | 00:12:39,000 | 然後要不要建立起主管機關 |
| 00:12:39,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 應該掌握什麼樣的責任 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:46,000 | 進行干預的這一個系統和制度的建設 |
| 00:12:46,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 建置 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:49,000 | 所以說從兩個部分 |
| 00:12:49,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 這個通報的擴大 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:53,000 | 第一個是 |
| 00:12:53,000 | 00:12:57,000 | 把這個從現在食安法第七條 |
| 00:12:57,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 產品的異常才通報 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:03,000 | 擴大到原料、換成品 |
| 00:13:03,000 | 00:13:07,000 | 我們這些高風險的加工鏈 |
| 00:13:07,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 不管他有沒有收貨 |
| 00:13:10,000 | 00:13:12,000 | 不管他有沒有買了 |
| 00:13:12,000 | 00:13:17,000 | 我們這一次討論一共有兩個 |
| 00:13:17,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 第一個是檢驗機關 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:23,000 | 檢驗機關你發現了也要通報 |
| 00:13:23,000 | 00:13:27,000 | 第二個你的生產供應鏈上 |
| 00:13:27,000 | 00:13:30,000 | 你發現了不管你有沒有收貨 |
| 00:13:30,000 | 00:13:32,000 | 也要通報 |
| 00:13:32,000 | 00:13:35,000 | 第三個是HACCP的認證 |
| 00:13:35,000 | 00:13:39,000 | 有發現重大異常也要通報 |
| 00:13:39,000 | 00:13:42,000 | 也就強化了HACCP過程裡面 |
| 00:13:42,000 | 00:13:43,000 | 是啦,理論上 |
| 00:13:43,000 | 00:13:44,000 | 但我要再跟你講 |
| 00:13:44,000 | 00:13:47,000 | 屠法不足以自行 |
| 00:13:47,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 然後如果你現在說 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:50,000 | 對,都要通報的話 |
| 00:13:50,000 | 00:13:53,000 | 那未來任何食品大廠 |
| 00:13:53,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 在供應商端驗出重金屬 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:13:59,000 | 黃麴毒素塑化劑本偏皮 |
| 00:13:59,000 | 00:14:02,000 | 等重大異常事件的鈔標 |
| 00:14:02,000 | 00:14:05,000 | 只要拒收退貨 |
| 00:14:05,000 | 00:14:09,000 | 通通都要通報 |
| 00:14:09,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 都有通報責任 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:12,000 | 對,我們會去 |
| 00:14:12,000 | 00:14:14,000 | 現在法是要這樣子 |
| 00:14:14,000 | 00:14:16,000 | 明確的再更擴大 |
| 00:14:16,000 | 00:14:18,000 | 對 |
| 00:14:18,000 | 00:14:20,000 | 那現行法沒有通報義務 |
| 00:14:20,000 | 00:14:21,000 | 這一次要補吧 |
| 00:14:21,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 對,這一次要補 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:25,000 | 那我們要講就是說 |
| 00:14:25,000 | 00:14:27,000 | 重大食安異常 |
| 00:14:27,000 | 00:14:29,000 | 重大風險 |
| 00:14:29,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 你要怎麼界定 |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:32,000 | 你也要想一想喔 |
| 00:14:32,000 | 00:14:34,000 | 這些我們總的言之 |
| 00:14:34,000 | 00:14:36,000 | 立法修法的目的是 |
| 00:14:36,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 這一些異常資訊 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:41,000 | 不能夠只是停留在業者手上 |
| 00:14:41,000 | 00:14:44,000 | 資訊沒有進入主管機關 |
| 00:14:44,000 | 00:14:46,000 | 政府就不可能及早封存 |
| 00:14:46,000 | 00:14:51,000 | 追查,比對同來源的流向 |
| 00:14:51,000 | 00:14:53,000 | 不可能及時通知 |
| 00:14:53,000 | 00:14:55,000 | 其他下游業者 |
| 00:14:55,000 | 00:14:58,000 | 就不可能發生預警的作用 |
| 00:14:58,000 | 00:15:01,000 | 所以有沒有建立風險 |
| 00:15:01,000 | 00:15:04,000 | 資訊的責任很重要 |
| 00:15:04,000 | 00:15:06,000 | 而不是只看有沒有買 |
| 00:15:06,000 | 00:15:08,000 | 然後在這裡呢 |
| 00:15:08,000 | 00:15:11,000 | 我們要,就部長喔 |
| 00:15:11,000 | 00:15:13,000 | 你還要再想一下喔 |
| 00:15:13,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 那通報到你這裡來 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:18,000 | 通報到你這裡來 |
| 00:15:18,000 | 00:15:20,000 | 你們要接下來怎麼進行 |
| 00:15:20,000 | 00:15:23,000 | 因為他可以把不合格的 |
| 00:15:23,000 | 00:15:25,000 | 拿回去可能賣給工業製造 |
| 00:15:25,000 | 00:15:27,000 | 可是你怎麼知道 |
| 00:15:27,000 | 00:15:29,000 | 他真的是賣給工業製造 |
| 00:15:29,000 | 00:15:31,000 | 然後他會說我會精煉 |
| 00:15:31,000 | 00:15:33,000 | 精煉成產品是沒有的 |
| 00:15:33,000 | 00:15:35,000 | 那你怎麼樣確保 |
| 00:15:35,000 | 00:15:38,000 | 確認確定安全 |
| 00:15:38,000 | 00:15:40,000 | 他是真的符合標準的 |
| 00:15:40,000 | 00:15:42,000 | 所以這個 |
| 00:15:42,000 | 00:15:44,000 | 土法不足以執行 |
| 00:15:44,000 | 00:15:46,000 | 接下來是執行面 |
| 00:15:46,000 | 00:15:48,000 | 法的執行面很重要 |
| 00:15:48,000 | 00:15:50,000 | 所以在這種狀況裡面 |
| 00:15:50,000 | 00:15:53,000 | 地方政府有足夠的人跟錢嗎 |
| 00:15:53,000 | 00:15:55,000 | 法的執行面 |
| 00:15:55,000 | 00:15:58,000 | 接下來就談地方政府的編制 |
| 00:15:58,000 | 00:16:01,000 | 需不需要給人跟錢 |
| 00:16:01,000 | 00:16:04,000 | 專責的,專職的 |
| 00:16:04,000 | 00:16:07,000 | 負責的業務承辦員 |
| 00:16:07,000 | 00:16:09,000 | 需不需要 |
| 00:16:09,000 | 00:16:12,000 | 這可能也是必要的配套 |
| 00:16:12,000 | 00:16:14,000 | 你利用現有的人力 |
| 00:16:14,000 | 00:16:17,000 | 大家都是兼職兼任 |
| 00:16:17,000 | 00:16:19,000 | 然後出事了 |
| 00:16:19,000 | 00:16:22,000 | 才講說你去幾次 |
| 00:16:22,000 | 00:16:24,000 | 八年沒驗一次 |
| 00:16:24,000 | 00:16:26,000 | 這都來不及了 |
| 00:16:26,000 | 00:16:29,000 | 我們想要的是專職專責的 |
| 00:16:29,000 | 00:16:31,000 | 這一個業務承辦員 |
| 00:16:31,000 | 00:16:35,000 | 他對這個HACCP制度的管理 |
| 00:16:35,000 | 00:16:36,000 | 是不是落實 |
| 00:16:36,000 | 00:16:38,000 | 有沒有可能這方面 |
| 00:16:38,000 | 00:16:41,000 | 人力的強化這個是要的 |
| 00:16:41,000 | 00:16:43,000 | 我們過去也一直在 |
| 00:16:43,000 | 00:16:44,000 | 要專職專責 |
| 00:16:44,000 | 00:16:46,000 | 稀查的人力 |
| 00:16:46,000 | 00:16:47,000 | 要專責 |
| 00:16:47,000 | 00:16:48,000 | 不是稀查 |
| 00:16:48,000 | 00:16:50,000 | 要專職專責 |
| 00:16:50,000 | 00:16:52,000 | 負責最高風險的 |
| 00:16:52,000 | 00:16:54,000 | 他就是這幾個項目而已 |
| 00:16:54,000 | 00:16:59,000 | 你知道在制度上要彌補 |
| 00:16:59,000 | 00:17:02,000 | 如果主管機關當時 |
| 00:17:02,000 | 00:17:04,000 | 知道了這個檢驗結果 |
| 00:17:04,000 | 00:17:07,000 | 這個風險是有通報進來的 |
| 00:17:07,000 | 00:17:09,000 | 你在透過製程的調整 |
| 00:17:09,000 | 00:17:12,000 | 而不是業者自己說了算 |
| 00:17:12,000 | 00:17:16,000 | 結果現行的制度是沒有這一個制度 |
| 00:17:16,000 | 00:17:20,000 | 台糖據說是保護了台糖自己的商譽 |
| 00:17:20,000 | 00:17:23,000 | 並沒有保護到公共的食安 |
| 00:17:23,000 | 00:17:26,000 | 他只保護到自己的商譽 |
| 00:17:26,000 | 00:17:30,000 | 可是這據說不能作為風險的終點 |
| 00:17:30,000 | 00:17:32,000 | 對主管機關來講 |
| 00:17:32,000 | 00:17:34,000 | 新的制度未來的制度 |
| 00:17:34,000 | 00:17:36,000 | 我們應當要理解 |
| 00:17:36,000 | 00:17:41,000 | 而且要把據說當作是啟動封存 |
| 00:17:41,000 | 00:17:45,000 | 據說一開始據說就通報 |
| 00:17:45,000 | 00:17:46,000 | 就要啟動封存 |
| 00:17:46,000 | 00:17:50,000 | 據說就要追查加密檢驗 |
| 00:17:50,000 | 00:17:54,000 | 或是限制流向的起點 |
| 00:17:54,000 | 00:17:58,000 | 我們是希望制度是應該要這樣才對 |
| 00:17:58,000 | 00:18:00,000 | 如果沒有這樣的話 |
| 00:18:00,000 | 00:18:02,000 | 據說異常資訊 |
| 00:18:02,000 | 00:18:05,000 | 他就會仍然會不斷地 |
| 00:18:05,000 | 00:18:07,000 | 歷史都會重演 |
| 00:18:07,000 | 00:18:11,000 | 那據說要通報 |
| 00:18:11,000 | 00:18:13,000 | 然後要啟動政府的責任 |
| 00:18:13,000 | 00:18:15,000 | 很重要為什麼 |
| 00:18:15,000 | 00:18:18,000 | 這個東西為什麼要專職專責的業務承辦員 |
| 00:18:18,000 | 00:18:20,000 | 因為未來也有可能 |
| 00:18:20,000 | 00:18:22,000 | 如果未來一家如品廠 |
| 00:18:22,000 | 00:18:27,000 | 在供應商端驗出原料奶重大污染 |
| 00:18:27,000 | 00:18:29,000 | 他據說 |
| 00:18:29,000 | 00:18:31,000 | 他只是據說 |
| 00:18:31,000 | 00:18:33,000 | 他產品安全了 |
| 00:18:33,000 | 00:18:36,000 | 可是被據說那一批原料會流到哪裡去不知道 |
| 00:18:36,000 | 00:18:39,000 | 如果一家應用的食品業者 |
| 00:18:39,000 | 00:18:44,000 | 在供應商端驗出大宗的原料重金屬超標 |
| 00:18:44,000 | 00:18:46,000 | 只是據說 |
| 00:18:46,000 | 00:18:48,000 | 據獲退貨 |
| 00:18:48,000 | 00:18:51,000 | 這樣子只是他沒有 |
| 00:18:51,000 | 00:18:53,000 | 但那一個原料還會再賣給別人 |
| 00:18:53,000 | 00:18:55,000 | 如果使用油紙 |
| 00:18:55,000 | 00:18:57,000 | 這一次類似這樣子只是據說 |
| 00:18:57,000 | 00:18:59,000 | 出管機關不知道 |
| 00:18:59,000 | 00:19:02,000 | 這個原料還停留在中聯 |
| 00:19:02,000 | 00:19:04,000 | 等待下一個買方 |
| 00:19:04,000 | 00:19:07,000 | 下一個買方沒有像台南這麼高標準 |
| 00:19:07,000 | 00:19:10,000 | 做成食品大家吃下肚 |
| 00:19:10,000 | 00:19:12,000 | 現行就是這個樣子 |
| 00:19:12,000 | 00:19:15,000 | 所以這絕對不是一個假設的題目 |
| 00:19:15,000 | 00:19:17,000 | 中聯就是這樣子 |
| 00:19:17,000 | 00:19:19,000 | 所以未來的修法 |
| 00:19:19,000 | 00:19:20,000 | 我們就是講說 |
| 00:19:20,000 | 00:19:23,000 | 據收退貨通報 |
| 00:19:23,000 | 00:19:26,000 | 就是主管機關要去介入 |
| 00:19:26,000 | 00:19:30,000 | 確認封存流向後續處理 |
| 00:19:30,000 | 00:19:32,000 | 在這種狀況裡面 |
| 00:19:32,000 | 00:19:34,000 | 我們政府的責任就來了 |
| 00:19:34,000 | 00:19:36,000 | 所以我們這一次我們要再講一遍 |
| 00:19:36,000 | 00:19:41,000 | 整個最上游的少數壟斷的 |
| 00:19:41,000 | 00:19:44,000 | 廠商的原料供應的 |
| 00:19:44,000 | 00:19:46,000 | 這一些食品業者 |
| 00:19:46,000 | 00:19:49,000 | HACCP制度也沒有在做 |
| 00:19:49,000 | 00:19:51,000 | 也沒有在遵守 |
| 00:19:51,000 | 00:19:54,000 | 食安法的管理也有制度面的漏洞 |
| 00:19:55,000 | 00:19:58,000 | 但是我們在這個裡面 |
| 00:19:58,000 | 00:20:02,000 | 我們一定要開始 |
| 00:20:02,000 | 00:20:05,000 | 要把自主管理制度收回 |
| 00:20:05,000 | 00:20:07,000 | 我再強調一次 |
| 00:20:07,000 | 00:20:10,000 | 以前都是叫業者自主管理 |
| 00:20:10,000 | 00:20:12,000 | 包括HACCP制度 |
| 00:20:12,000 | 00:20:14,000 | 也是叫業者自主管理 |
| 00:20:14,000 | 00:20:16,000 | 我們從現在開始 |
| 00:20:16,000 | 00:20:20,000 | 要把業者自主管理收回來 |
| 00:20:20,000 | 00:20:21,000 | 收回來 |
| 00:20:21,000 | 00:20:25,000 | 改成高度的政府監管 |
| 00:20:25,000 | 00:20:27,000 | 部長你同意嗎 |
| 00:20:27,000 | 00:20:30,000 | 高度的政府監管 |
| 00:20:30,000 | 00:20:32,000 | 更高程度的管理 |
| 00:20:32,000 | 00:20:34,000 | 這個是我們絕對會支持 |
| 00:20:34,000 | 00:20:36,000 | 所以在這一次的修法裡面 |
| 00:20:36,000 | 00:20:38,000 | 也要求了很多強制性的做法 |
| 00:20:38,000 | 00:20:40,000 | 更高程度的管理 |
| 00:20:40,000 | 00:20:42,000 | 到底是要政府管理 |
| 00:20:42,000 | 00:20:44,000 | 還是業者自己管理 |
| 00:20:44,000 | 00:20:47,000 | 包含了外部的專業人員的管理介入 |
| 00:20:47,000 | 00:20:48,000 | 我現在告訴你 |
| 00:20:48,000 | 00:20:51,000 | 沒有所謂的有良心的業者 |
| 00:20:51,000 | 00:20:54,000 | 我現在告訴你沒有這一回事 |
| 00:20:54,000 | 00:20:56,000 | 就這個制度面 |
| 00:20:56,000 | 00:20:58,000 | 你去好好地想一下 |
| 00:20:58,000 | 00:21:00,000 | 我認為沒有所謂的 |
| 00:21:00,000 | 00:21:02,000 | 有道德有良知的業者 |
| 00:21:02,000 | 00:21:04,000 | 只有法律怎麼規定 |
| 00:21:04,000 | 00:21:06,000 | 法律是最低的標準 |
| 00:21:06,000 | 00:21:08,000 | 他都可以不遵守了 |
| 00:21:08,000 | 00:21:10,000 | 如果你還法律是授權給他們 |
| 00:21:10,000 | 00:21:11,000 | 業者自主管理 |
| 00:21:11,000 | 00:21:13,000 | 那一定是破功 |
| 00:21:13,000 | 00:21:16,000 | 而且食安系統性的風暴 |
| 00:21:16,000 | 00:21:17,000 | 會不斷地上演 |
| 00:21:17,000 | 00:21:19,000 | 這是我提醒你的 |
| 00:21:19,000 | 00:21:22,000 | 好 那就這一次的中聯的 |
| 00:21:22,000 | 00:21:23,000 | 獨有的事件 |
| 00:21:23,000 | 00:21:25,000 | 311號油潮 |
| 00:21:25,000 | 00:21:26,000 | 我再提醒你一個 |
| 00:21:26,000 | 00:21:30,000 | 重大的異常不能只追單一交易 |
| 00:21:30,000 | 00:21:35,000 | 應該要啟動同潮或是同傳奇 |
| 00:21:35,000 | 00:21:38,000 | 同來源的橫向警示 |
| 00:21:38,000 | 00:21:41,000 | 未來只要高風險食品原料 |
| 00:21:41,000 | 00:21:44,000 | 在供應商端驗出重大的鈔標 |
| 00:21:44,000 | 00:21:46,000 | 你就要開始要求業者 |
| 00:21:46,000 | 00:21:49,000 | 立即同潮、同傳奇、同來源 |
| 00:21:49,000 | 00:21:52,000 | 同製程、同批次的完整資料 |
| 00:21:52,000 | 00:21:54,000 | 而並通知可能受影響的 |
| 00:21:54,000 | 00:21:58,000 | 買方檢驗或暫停使用 |
| 00:21:58,000 | 00:22:00,000 | 如果沒有這道橫向的指示 |
| 00:22:00,000 | 00:22:03,000 | 政府會永遠都在等下一個 |
| 00:22:03,000 | 00:22:05,000 | 下游驗出鈔標 |
| 00:22:05,000 | 00:22:08,000 | 再回溯去找上游 |
| 00:22:08,000 | 00:22:10,000 | 不能這麼被動 |
| 00:22:10,000 | 00:22:11,000 | 他那個油潮 |
| 00:22:11,000 | 00:22:12,000 | 他的那個油潮 |
| 00:22:12,000 | 00:22:15,000 | 跟那個油潮同一批貨來的 |
| 00:22:15,000 | 00:22:17,000 | 同一個傳奇的 |
| 00:22:17,000 | 00:22:20,000 | 同一批煉油的 |
| 00:22:20,000 | 00:22:24,000 | 其他的東西一起查、一起驗 |
| 00:22:24,000 | 00:22:27,000 | 你只驗那一潮也不行 |
| 00:22:27,000 | 00:22:29,000 | 只驗那一批也不行 |
| 00:22:29,000 | 00:22:32,000 | 當然你們這次擴大驗了三個月 |
| 00:22:32,000 | 00:22:33,000 | 幾批 |
| 00:22:33,000 | 00:22:35,000 | 一共是30批 |
| 00:22:35,000 | 00:22:36,000 | 30批 |
| 00:22:36,000 | 00:22:37,000 | 不過那一個是 |
| 00:22:37,000 | 00:22:38,000 | 他沒有成批的 |
| 00:22:38,000 | 00:22:40,000 | 他是另外那個是在潮 |
| 00:22:40,000 | 00:22:41,000 | 另外是30批 |
| 00:22:41,000 | 00:22:42,000 | 我現在跟你說的 |
| 00:22:42,000 | 00:22:44,000 | 不是同那幾批而已 |
| 00:22:44,000 | 00:22:46,000 | 其實同傳奇的 |
| 00:22:46,000 | 00:22:48,000 | 同一批來源的 |
| 00:22:48,000 | 00:22:51,000 | 其實都是有很大的風險 |
| 00:22:51,000 | 00:22:55,000 | 然後食品雲不能只追產品流向 |
| 00:22:55,000 | 00:22:59,000 | 如果按照現在食品雲的管理的方法 |
| 00:22:59,000 | 00:23:03,000 | 你們現在說修法要強化數位治理 |
| 00:23:03,000 | 00:23:06,000 | 那你數位治理要治理什麼 |
| 00:23:06,000 | 00:23:07,000 | 你們講的 |
| 00:23:07,000 | 00:23:09,000 | 要強化數位治理要治理什麼 |
| 00:23:09,000 | 00:23:11,000 | 當然就是強化他這個 |
| 00:23:11,000 | 00:23:12,000 | 我們剛剛前面的通報 |
| 00:23:12,000 | 00:23:14,000 | 包含這個檢驗的通報 |
| 00:23:14,000 | 00:23:15,000 | 我們會把它建立起來 |
| 00:23:15,000 | 00:23:17,000 | 過去的檢驗是沒有直接通報 |
| 00:23:17,000 | 00:23:18,000 | 對 |
| 00:23:18,000 | 00:23:23,000 | 你們的過去只記錄進貨、出貨、流向 |
| 00:23:23,000 | 00:23:25,000 | 只看得到已經進入供應鏈的資料 |
| 00:23:25,000 | 00:23:28,000 | 然後沒有看到被退貨的、不合格的 |
| 00:23:28,000 | 00:23:32,000 | 風潮採樣的、拒收檢驗異常的 |
| 00:23:32,000 | 00:23:34,000 | 通通都沒有 |
| 00:23:34,000 | 00:23:37,000 | 那看不到他最早的風險訊號 |
| 00:23:37,000 | 00:23:38,000 | 在這種狀況裡面 |
| 00:23:38,000 | 00:23:40,000 | 可是你看到這個風險訊號 |
| 00:23:40,000 | 00:23:41,000 | 你知道喔 |
| 00:23:41,000 | 00:23:45,000 | 他都沒有出現在台糖的生產資料裡面 |
| 00:23:45,000 | 00:23:49,000 | 也不會出現在台糖的產品流向 |
| 00:23:49,000 | 00:23:52,000 | 那也沒有進入台糖的進貨資料 |
| 00:23:52,000 | 00:23:54,000 | 通通都沒有啊 |
| 00:23:54,000 | 00:23:55,000 | 都沒有喔 |
| 00:23:55,000 | 00:23:57,000 | 可是這個油沒有消失啊 |
| 00:23:57,000 | 00:23:58,000 | 這一批油沒有消失吧 |
| 00:23:58,000 | 00:24:01,000 | 他仍然在311油槽裡面 |
| 00:24:01,000 | 00:24:03,000 | 就是說你整個食品雲的制度 |
| 00:24:03,000 | 00:24:05,000 | 只看得到產品的流向 |
| 00:24:05,000 | 00:24:08,000 | 但是看不到重大異常的檢驗結果 |
| 00:24:08,000 | 00:24:13,000 | 如果說業者在供應商端採樣驗收前檢驗 |
| 00:24:13,000 | 00:24:16,000 | 委託代工檢驗、自主檢驗 |
| 00:24:16,000 | 00:24:18,000 | 第三方實驗室檢驗 |
| 00:24:18,000 | 00:24:20,000 | 發現重大的超標不合格 |
| 00:24:20,000 | 00:24:24,000 | 拒收、退貨、風潮暫停存放的訊息 |
| 00:24:24,000 | 00:24:27,000 | 這個就是很重要的內幕的、評估的資料 |
| 00:24:27,000 | 00:24:31,000 | 但是對我們主管機關而言 |
| 00:24:31,000 | 00:24:34,000 | 這個就是一個風險的警訊 |
| 00:24:34,000 | 00:24:36,000 | 我們都應該要掌握 |
| 00:24:36,000 | 00:24:39,000 | 我不是說所有不合格都要登錄 |
| 00:24:39,000 | 00:24:45,000 | 但是應該強制登錄的是高風險食品業別 |
| 00:24:45,000 | 00:24:49,000 | 重大污染物超過法定標準或達一定倍數 |
| 00:24:49,000 | 00:24:52,000 | 可能影響多家下游的異常結果 |
| 00:24:52,000 | 00:24:56,000 | 在這種狀況裡面我們要記錄 |
| 00:24:56,000 | 00:25:01,000 | 你們的方向跟我講的方向是一致的嗎 |
| 00:25:01,000 | 00:25:06,000 | 對,就是我們過去在登錄的部分是進跟出 |
| 00:25:06,000 | 00:25:10,000 | 進跟出,而且只登錄合格 |
| 00:25:10,000 | 00:25:13,000 | 只登錄合格的進跟出 |
| 00:25:13,000 | 00:25:15,000 | 對,它就是進入它的加工鏈的 |
| 00:25:15,000 | 00:25:17,000 | 它是合格的 |
| 00:25:17,000 | 00:25:19,000 | 但我希望你們開始要建置 |
| 00:25:19,000 | 00:25:23,000 | 登錄不合格的叫它要登錄出來 |
| 00:25:23,000 | 00:25:25,000 | 我們不能夠只要求業者 |
| 00:25:25,000 | 00:25:28,000 | 把合格的資料給政府看 |
| 00:25:28,000 | 00:25:31,000 | 只登錄合格的資料 |
| 00:25:31,000 | 00:25:35,000 | 真正的風險往往是在於不合格的資料 |
| 00:25:35,000 | 00:25:39,000 | 因為合格資料告訴政府什麼可以出貨 |
| 00:25:39,000 | 00:25:42,000 | 可是不合格的資料告訴你 |
| 00:25:42,000 | 00:25:45,000 | 哪裡可能正要出事了 |
| 00:25:45,000 | 00:25:47,000 | 所以你的食品雲登錄 |
| 00:25:47,000 | 00:25:51,000 | 只要求業者登錄進貨出貨產品流向 |
| 00:25:51,000 | 00:25:56,000 | 沒有納入不合格的重大的異常的檢驗結果 |
| 00:25:56,000 | 00:25:58,000 | 政府永遠慢半拍 |
| 00:25:58,000 | 00:26:01,000 | 人民永遠都要把有毒的吃進去以後 |
| 00:26:01,000 | 00:26:05,000 | 才在那裡氣急敗壞,就責於政府 |
| 00:26:05,000 | 00:26:10,000 | 然後永遠要等下游驗出超標產品 |
| 00:26:10,000 | 00:26:16,000 | 已經進入所有的各個機關、團散、家庭 |
| 00:26:16,000 | 00:26:19,000 | 政府才要回頭追流向查原因 |
| 00:26:19,000 | 00:26:21,000 | 這不是數位治理 |
| 00:26:21,000 | 00:26:25,000 | 而是已經發生的交易記錄電子化而已 |
| 00:26:25,000 | 00:26:29,000 | 所以真正有預警價值的是 |
| 00:26:29,000 | 00:26:33,000 | 要登錄重大異常檢驗資訊 |
| 00:26:33,000 | 00:26:37,000 | 不能讓這個異常檢驗資訊留在業者手上而已 |
| 00:26:37,000 | 00:26:39,000 | 叫他登錄 |
| 00:26:39,000 | 00:26:41,000 | 但如果他不登錄 |
| 00:26:41,000 | 00:26:44,000 | 我們第三方檢驗出來 |
| 00:26:44,000 | 00:26:47,000 | 或是你的買主給你退貨了 |
| 00:26:47,000 | 00:26:49,000 | 也會通報 |
| 00:26:49,000 | 00:26:51,000 | 一樣要通報 |
| 00:26:51,000 | 00:26:54,000 | 你會被通報不如你自己主動登錄 |
| 00:26:54,000 | 00:26:56,000 | 當你登錄了異常的時候 |
| 00:26:56,000 | 00:26:59,000 | 你主管機關要通知地方政府 |
| 00:26:59,000 | 00:27:02,000 | 你對那一批次那些貨 |
| 00:27:02,000 | 00:27:04,000 | 你要高度的監管 |
| 00:27:04,000 | 00:27:07,000 | 因為它超標很多 |
| 00:27:07,000 | 00:27:12,000 | 最後它怎麼處理安不安全、流向哪裡 |
| 00:27:12,000 | 00:27:15,000 | 政府要給人民交代 |
| 00:27:15,000 | 00:27:18,000 | 我最後再講最後一句就是說 |
| 00:27:18,000 | 00:27:20,000 | 人民的期待是 |
| 00:27:20,000 | 00:27:22,000 | 再加上的 |
| 00:27:22,000 | 00:27:25,000 | 政府都應該是把關過 |
| 00:27:25,000 | 00:27:27,000 | 都是安全的 |
| 00:27:27,000 | 00:27:30,000 | 而現在並不是 |
| 00:27:30,000 | 00:27:34,000 | 我們希望未來都應該要是這樣子 |
| 00:27:34,000 | 00:27:36,000 | 這樣子部長 |
| 00:27:36,000 | 00:27:38,000 | 叫他們不合格異常要登錄 |
| 00:27:38,000 | 00:27:42,000 | 如果你HACCP制度要通報了 |
| 00:27:42,000 | 00:27:47,000 | 如果你的第三方檢驗的實驗室要通報了 |
| 00:27:47,000 | 00:27:50,000 | 如果像台糖買到也要通報了 |
| 00:27:50,000 | 00:27:54,000 | 那業者登錄對他們來講 |
| 00:27:54,000 | 00:27:57,000 | 是同樣一件事 |
| 00:27:57,000 | 00:28:01,000 | 所以對業者來講沒有壓力了 |
| 00:28:01,000 | 00:28:05,000 | 這是越透明、越公開 |
| 00:28:05,000 | 00:28:07,000 | 對消費者有保障 |
| 00:28:07,000 | 00:28:12,000 | 但對業者自己來講也是有保障的 |
| 00:28:12,000 | 00:28:15,000 | 不要被人家通報了再來被處分 |
| 00:28:15,000 | 00:28:17,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:28:17,000 | 00:28:20,000 | 部長你有同意嗎 |
| 00:28:20,000 | 00:28:22,000 | 因為這次我們是要求連這個 |
| 00:28:22,000 | 00:28:25,000 | 自設實驗室的檢驗也要通報 |
| 00:28:25,000 | 00:28:26,000 | 就等於是要登錄 |
| 00:28:26,000 | 00:28:27,000 | 概念是一樣 |
| 00:28:27,000 | 00:28:28,000 | 是沒有錯 |
| 00:28:28,000 | 00:28:32,000 | 所以我們希望所有制度都不是參考用的 |
| 00:28:32,000 | 00:28:35,000 | 你們目前為止HACCP制度 |
| 00:28:35,000 | 00:28:36,000 | 不是只有使用油紙 |
| 00:28:36,000 | 00:28:38,000 | HACCP的 |
| 00:28:38,000 | 00:28:41,000 | 符合這個工廠製造HACCP的廠商有幾間 |
| 00:28:41,000 | 00:28:43,000 | 全國 |
| 00:28:44,000 | 00:28:47,000 | 其實HACCP食品廠都是大廠 |
| 00:28:47,000 | 00:28:49,000 | 超級大廠 |
| 00:28:49,000 | 00:28:51,000 | 食藥署署長 |
| 00:28:51,000 | 00:28:56,000 | 所有HACCP制度的所有食品加工廠 |
| 00:28:56,000 | 00:29:01,000 | 全部都應該好好的盤整一次 |
| 00:29:01,000 | 00:29:03,000 | 造假的百分之 |
| 00:29:03,000 | 00:29:05,000 | 我不好意思說百分之百 |
| 00:29:05,000 | 00:29:07,000 | 很多 |
| 00:29:07,000 | 00:29:09,000 | 很多 |
| 00:29:09,000 | 00:29:10,000 | 虛擬委員 |
| 00:29:10,000 | 00:29:12,000 | 書面作業 |
| 00:29:12,000 | 00:29:15,000 | 不是真正的HACCP |
| 00:29:15,000 | 00:29:18,000 | 好謝謝 |
| 00:29:18,000 | 00:29:19,000 | 好謝謝委員 |
| 00:29:19,000 | 00:29:23,000 | 好抱歉我再問最後一句 |
| 00:29:23,000 | 00:29:26,000 | 一個因為台灣苦茶油的事情 |
| 00:29:26,000 | 00:29:29,000 | 我現在問署長苦茶油 |
| 00:29:29,000 | 00:29:33,000 | 沒有品名標示標準對不對 |
| 00:29:33,000 | 00:29:35,000 | 沒有制定品名標示標準 |
| 00:29:35,000 | 00:29:36,000 | 意思是說 |
| 00:29:36,000 | 00:29:40,000 | 苦茶油根本台灣沒有界定什麼叫做苦茶油 |
| 00:29:40,000 | 00:29:42,000 | 沒有嘛 |
| 00:29:42,000 | 00:29:45,000 | 這個部分我們知道這個要做一些修正 |
| 00:29:45,000 | 00:29:47,000 | 我知道你們沒有啦 |
| 00:29:47,000 | 00:29:48,000 | 油品的部分 |
| 00:29:48,000 | 00:29:50,000 | 這些是本品比這是2PVP |
| 00:29:50,000 | 00:29:51,000 | 沒有不是這樣子啦 |
| 00:29:51,000 | 00:29:53,000 | 我現在重點第一個苦茶油 |
| 00:29:53,000 | 00:29:59,000 | 台灣沒有制定什麼叫做苦茶油的標準 |
| 00:29:59,000 | 00:30:01,000 | 沒有品名標示標準 |
| 00:30:01,000 | 00:30:05,000 | 所以混油也可以叫做苦茶油 |
| 00:30:05,000 | 00:30:06,000 | 第二個 |
| 00:30:06,000 | 00:30:10,000 | 因為沒有規定什麼才能夠叫做苦茶油 |
| 00:30:10,000 | 00:30:11,000 | 所以會有混油 |
| 00:30:11,000 | 00:30:17,000 | 但是台灣目前沒有混油的檢驗方法對不對 |
| 00:30:17,000 | 00:30:20,000 | 苦茶油的混油檢驗方法 |
| 00:30:20,000 | 00:30:22,000 | 包委員就這個部分 |
| 00:30:22,000 | 00:30:24,000 | 的確我們在積極的研議 |
| 00:30:24,000 | 00:30:28,000 | 因為裡面有混甲混沙拉油大豆油等等 |
| 00:30:28,000 | 00:30:30,000 | 其實它的成分的部分 |
| 00:30:30,000 | 00:30:31,000 | 以目前的檢驗 |
| 00:30:31,000 | 00:30:33,000 | 我們有信心應該是可以開發出來的 |
| 00:30:33,000 | 00:30:36,000 | 好你們現在目前沒有檢驗方法 |
| 00:30:36,000 | 00:30:38,000 | 所以我講這個是什麼意思呢 |
| 00:30:38,000 | 00:30:40,000 | 因為新聞報導 |
| 00:30:40,000 | 00:30:43,000 | 中國的種子來了檢驗了 |
| 00:30:43,000 | 00:30:45,000 | 沒有本品比超標 |
| 00:30:45,000 | 00:30:47,000 | 他是這樣很多報導是這樣講的 |
| 00:30:47,000 | 00:30:50,000 | 他不是驗那個苦茶籽 |
| 00:30:50,000 | 00:30:53,000 | 他是說做出來的苦茶油沒有超標 |
| 00:30:53,000 | 00:30:56,000 | 對但是有機商店的永豐嶼的都超標啊 |
| 00:30:56,000 | 00:30:59,000 | 產品一樣是最末端的產品都超標啊 |
| 00:30:59,000 | 00:31:01,000 | 我現在不是要講這個啦 |
| 00:31:01,000 | 00:31:02,000 | 我是要跟你講 |
| 00:31:02,000 | 00:31:06,000 | 其實啊我自己高度的懷疑是混油啦 |
| 00:31:06,000 | 00:31:08,000 | 混油啦 |
| 00:31:08,000 | 00:31:10,000 | 真正超標的來源沒有可能 |
| 00:31:10,000 | 00:31:12,000 | 其實是加很多的大豆沙拉油 |
| 00:31:12,000 | 00:31:17,000 | 因為加了大豆沙拉油的苦茶油沒有違法 |
| 00:31:17,000 | 00:31:20,000 | 因為法律沒有訂定什麼叫做苦茶油 |
| 00:31:20,000 | 00:31:23,000 | 那現在目前也沒有檢驗 |
| 00:31:23,000 | 00:31:26,000 | 有沒有混油的檢驗方法沒有 |
| 00:31:26,000 | 00:31:29,000 | 好我希望你們要去改善 |
| 00:31:29,000 | 00:31:32,000 | 你們要嚴格管理啦 |
| 00:31:32,000 | 00:31:36,000 | 第三個我們很多關心台灣農業的 |
| 00:31:36,000 | 00:31:40,000 | 也有很多委員在關心的 |
| 00:31:40,000 | 00:31:44,000 | 我們希望原料來源國要標示 |
| 00:31:44,000 | 00:31:46,000 | 這個你們會不會支持 |
| 00:31:46,000 | 00:31:50,000 | 根本現在的油品的標示有要求 |
| 00:31:50,000 | 00:31:52,000 | 如果你是有混油的 |
| 00:31:52,000 | 00:31:53,000 | 你就不能稱為 |
| 00:31:53,000 | 00:31:54,000 | 我不再講混油了 |
| 00:31:54,000 | 00:31:57,000 | 你要用調和油的方式標示 |
| 00:31:57,000 | 00:32:00,000 | 你的苦茶油沒有訂出品名標示標準 |
| 00:32:00,000 | 00:32:04,000 | 你哪裡有混油的調和油這個名稱 |
| 00:32:04,000 | 00:32:06,000 | 這個是通則 |
| 00:32:06,000 | 00:32:08,000 | 好來但我不是要講這個 |
| 00:32:08,000 | 00:32:11,000 | 我是講這個是一樣是沒有混油的話 |
| 00:32:11,000 | 00:32:15,000 | 沒有混油但是你的種子來自於中國 |
| 00:32:15,000 | 00:32:19,000 | 你要標示原料種子來自於中國 |
| 00:32:19,000 | 00:32:21,000 | 我是要要求這個 |
| 00:32:21,000 | 00:32:23,000 | 有沒有意見 |
| 00:32:23,000 | 00:32:25,000 | 對於原料原產地的部分 |
| 00:32:25,000 | 00:32:26,000 | 的確這個部分我們 |
| 00:32:26,000 | 00:32:30,000 | 原料原產地特別是這些農產品的這一些 |
| 00:32:30,000 | 00:32:35,000 | 原料原產地要標示來源國 |
| 00:32:35,000 | 00:32:37,000 | 這個是社會高度關注 |
| 00:32:37,000 | 00:32:40,000 | 也是這一次苦茶油事件裡面 |
| 00:32:40,000 | 00:32:42,000 | 大家相當關注的 |
| 00:32:42,000 | 00:32:49,000 | 但是我們這個要修改要立法要修法之外 |
| 00:32:49,000 | 00:32:52,000 | 我在講苦茶油的相關的 |
| 00:32:52,000 | 00:32:54,000 | 包括其他的油品都一樣 |
| 00:32:54,000 | 00:32:56,000 | 品名標示標準 |
| 00:32:56,000 | 00:32:59,000 | 然後規定出來以後就要有檢驗的方法 |
| 00:32:59,000 | 00:33:01,000 | 沒有檢驗方法 |
| 00:33:01,000 | 00:33:03,000 | 你沒有辦法證明他混油 |
| 00:33:03,000 | 00:33:05,000 | 你說不可以混油 |
| 00:33:05,000 | 00:33:07,000 | 現行的通則就規定不能混 |
| 00:33:07,000 | 00:33:09,000 | 混的話要標示調和油 |
| 00:33:09,000 | 00:33:15,000 | 但是你沒有苦茶油混油的檢驗方法 |
| 00:33:15,000 | 00:33:19,000 | 你怎麼去確認他的混油是真的混油 |
| 00:33:19,000 | 00:33:24,000 | 他在那裡硬拗你怎麼確認 |
| 00:33:24,000 | 00:33:26,000 | 你連檢驗方法都沒有公告 |
| 00:33:26,000 | 00:33:28,000 | 現在也沒辦法檢驗 |
| 00:33:28,000 | 00:33:30,000 | 不是嗎 |
| 00:33:30,000 | 00:33:32,000 | 跟委員說明當然這個檢驗方法 |
| 00:33:32,000 | 00:33:36,000 | 現在食藥署在積極的開發去驗他 |
| 00:33:36,000 | 00:33:40,000 | 關於他的脂肪酸的比例不同的脂肪酸 |
| 00:33:40,000 | 00:33:42,000 | 不過我們現在在查的時候 |
| 00:33:42,000 | 00:33:46,000 | 是根據他的原料的採購證明 |
| 00:33:46,000 | 00:33:50,000 | 你們這樣證明他是中國原料 |
| 00:33:50,000 | 00:33:52,000 | 還是在地 |
| 00:33:52,000 | 00:33:54,000 | 但是本篇比的 |
| 00:33:54,000 | 00:33:57,000 | 人家中國原料製成的苦茶油 |
| 00:33:57,000 | 00:34:01,000 | 就是有好幾批驗出來沒有超標 |
| 00:34:01,000 | 00:34:03,000 | 我不是替中國總指講話 |
| 00:34:03,000 | 00:34:06,000 | 我是要告訴你真正有可能風險的來源 |
| 00:34:06,000 | 00:34:08,000 | 是來自於混油 |
| 00:34:08,000 | 00:34:10,000 | 風險的來源 |
| 00:34:10,000 | 00:34:14,000 | 在中聯你們公布那有問題的批次流向的時候 |
| 00:34:14,000 | 00:34:18,000 | 就很多自由工廠買了很多大豆沙拉油 |
| 00:34:18,000 | 00:34:20,000 | 這個是事實 |
| 00:34:20,000 | 00:34:22,000 | 包括苦茶油工廠 |
| 00:34:22,000 | 00:34:25,000 | 也有人買大豆沙拉油 |
| 00:34:25,000 | 00:34:29,000 | 所以混油你們一直都沒有朝混油的方向 |
| 00:34:29,000 | 00:34:31,000 | 那沒有朝混油的方向 |
| 00:34:31,000 | 00:34:32,000 | 我也可以理解 |
| 00:34:32,000 | 00:34:34,000 | 因為你們也沒有檢驗的方法 |
| 00:34:34,000 | 00:34:37,000 | 所以對你們來講是一個非常困難的 |
| 00:34:37,000 | 00:34:40,000 | 那過去沒有做出規範 |
| 00:34:41,000 | 00:34:44,000 | 未來我們希望你們儘速馬上 |
| 00:34:44,000 | 00:34:48,000 | 把該補起來的豆馬上補起來 |
| 00:34:48,000 | 00:34:52,000 | 把食品安全還給我們人民 |
| 00:34:52,000 | 00:34:54,000 | 是這樣子 |
| 00:34:54,000 | 00:34:57,000 | 好這個我們趕快來開發這個檢驗 |
| 00:35:01,000 | 00:35:04,000 | 好謝謝我們林子芬委員 |