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葉元之 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:10,740 | 主席好 馬上請衛福部長 謝謝 |
| 00:00:10,740 | 00:00:11,740 | 有請食部長 |
| 00:00:11,740 | 00:00:15,740 | 我也好 |
| 00:00:15,740 | 00:00:18,040 | 那個衛福部在這一次的問題遊事件 |
| 00:00:18,040 | 00:00:20,040 | 大概有兩個決策外界覺得非常奇怪 |
| 00:00:20,040 | 00:00:22,540 | 所以最近大家在問說 到底是決策怎麼做出來的 |
| 00:00:22,540 | 00:00:25,540 | 第一個是7月3號的時候跟大家講說 |
| 00:00:25,540 | 00:00:28,040 | 第二層的食品 那些業者也是受害者啦 |
| 00:00:28,080 | 00:00:31,080 | 所以就不用下架 也不用公布 |
| 00:00:31,080 | 00:00:32,080 | 但後來改了 |
| 00:00:32,080 | 00:00:33,080 | 好 這是第一個 |
| 00:00:33,080 | 00:00:35,080 | 第二個改的是說 |
| 00:00:35,080 | 00:00:37,080 | 第二層食品要下架 |
| 00:00:37,080 | 00:00:41,080 | 但是20%成分以下不用下架不用公布 |
| 00:00:41,080 | 00:00:43,080 | 我來請教一下 |
| 00:00:43,080 | 00:00:45,080 | 在做出第一個決策的時候 |
| 00:00:45,080 | 00:00:47,080 | 那個時候有 那是決幾號的決策 |
| 00:00:47,080 | 00:00:49,080 | 老闆家來講的嗎 |
| 00:00:49,080 | 00:00:51,080 | 應該是這樣 |
| 00:00:51,080 | 00:00:54,080 | 第一個時間我們6月30號接獲通報 |
| 00:00:54,080 | 00:00:56,080 | 那麼7月1號就去查場 |
| 00:00:56,120 | 00:01:00,120 | 那麼7月2號就根據在之前有訂定的 |
| 00:01:00,120 | 00:01:05,120 | 一個違規食品事件的下架階層處理原則 |
| 00:01:05,120 | 00:01:07,120 | 那個時候是第一層下架 |
| 00:01:07,120 | 00:01:09,120 | 所以7月2號就宣布第一層的油品都下架 |
| 00:01:09,120 | 00:01:11,120 | 所以那個時候部長出來講說 |
| 00:01:11,120 | 00:01:13,120 | 第二層食品不用下架 |
| 00:01:13,120 | 00:01:15,120 | 那個沒有專家會議 |
| 00:01:15,120 | 00:01:16,120 | 沒有開會嘛 |
| 00:01:16,120 | 00:01:18,120 | 這個你直接宣布的嘛 |
| 00:01:18,120 | 00:01:19,120 | 那個不是我宣布 |
| 00:01:19,120 | 00:01:20,120 | 那個是食藥署 |
| 00:01:20,120 | 00:01:21,120 | 食藥署就宣布了 |
| 00:01:21,120 | 00:01:22,120 | 沒有專家會議嘛 |
| 00:01:22,120 | 00:01:24,120 | 就是先把第一層的油品都下架了 |
| 00:01:24,160 | 00:01:26,160 | 但是那時候講第二層不用下架 |
| 00:01:26,160 | 00:01:28,160 | 大家現在在質疑動作慢 |
| 00:01:28,160 | 00:01:31,160 | 不過當時候的規定確實是沒有第二層 |
| 00:01:31,160 | 00:01:36,160 | 那個也是專家做出來的決定 |
| 00:01:36,160 | 00:01:39,160 | 專家規定是根據以前的專家的會議 |
| 00:01:39,160 | 00:01:40,160 | 然後做出這樣的決定 |
| 00:01:40,160 | 00:01:41,160 | 就很怪嘛 |
| 00:01:41,160 | 00:01:45,160 | 因為蘇丹紅的事情的時候 |
| 00:01:45,160 | 00:01:46,160 | 蘇丹紅是三級致癌物 |
| 00:01:46,160 | 00:01:48,160 | 他的第二層食品馬上就下架 |
| 00:01:48,160 | 00:01:49,160 | 但這一次是一級致癌物 |
| 00:01:49,160 | 00:01:51,160 | 但第二層食品卻沒有下架 |
| 00:01:51,160 | 00:01:52,160 | 那個是不得添加 |
| 00:01:52,200 | 00:01:53,200 | 不是那你後來為什麼還是下架嘛 |
| 00:01:53,200 | 00:01:55,200 | 代表你開始覺得這個有問題嘛 |
| 00:01:55,200 | 00:01:58,200 | 部長如果說後面你還是很堅持說 |
| 00:01:58,200 | 00:01:59,200 | 這個東西不應該下架 |
| 00:01:59,200 | 00:02:01,200 | 那當然我們就沒什麼好講了嘛 |
| 00:02:01,200 | 00:02:02,200 | 你後來那個賴總統也說 |
| 00:02:02,200 | 00:02:03,200 | 該下架就下架 |
| 00:02:03,200 | 00:02:05,200 | 所以你們後來也下架了嘛 |
| 00:02:05,200 | 00:02:06,200 | 代表你當初動作慢嘛 |
| 00:02:06,200 | 00:02:08,199 | 你如果第一時間第二層食品就下架 |
| 00:02:08,199 | 00:02:11,200 | 大家那幾天不用多吃很多致癌物嘛 |
| 00:02:11,200 | 00:02:13,200 | 所以我們不需要去炒這個東西嘛 |
| 00:02:13,200 | 00:02:14,200 | 所以第一個決策就慢了 |
| 00:02:14,200 | 00:02:16,200 | 第二件事情是 |
| 00:02:16,200 | 00:02:19,200 | 那20%到底這個決策是怎麼做出來的 |
| 00:02:19,200 | 00:02:20,200 | 這是很多人關心的 |
| 00:02:20,239 | 00:02:23,239 | 包括你們綠營的陳其邁市長也關心啊 |
| 00:02:23,239 | 00:02:24,239 | 那所以這20% |
| 00:02:24,239 | 00:02:26,239 | 第一個為什麼是20% |
| 00:02:26,239 | 00:02:27,239 | 是為什麼 |
| 00:02:27,239 | 00:02:28,239 | 為什麼不是30% |
| 00:02:28,239 | 00:02:30,239 | 這是7月4號的專家 |
| 00:02:30,239 | 00:02:32,239 | 為什麼專家認為不是30% |
| 00:02:32,239 | 00:02:34,239 | 是20% 為什麼 |
| 00:02:34,239 | 00:02:36,239 | 他們是根據他的風險 |
| 00:02:36,239 | 00:02:39,239 | 這個科學的證據跟風險的理由 |
| 00:02:39,239 | 00:02:40,239 | 什麼科學的證據 |
| 00:02:40,239 | 00:02:42,239 | 什麼科學的證據 |
| 00:02:42,239 | 00:02:43,239 | 什麼科學的證據 |
| 00:02:43,239 | 00:02:45,239 | 為什麼是30%不是10% |
| 00:02:45,239 | 00:02:48,239 | 如果是按照這個 |
| 00:02:48,280 | 00:02:50,280 | 當年在訂訂 |
| 00:02:50,280 | 00:02:51,280 | 其實當年訂的時候 |
| 00:02:51,280 | 00:02:53,280 | 也是參考了歐盟的標準 |
| 00:02:53,280 | 00:02:55,280 | 歐盟的標準只下架到第一層 |
| 00:02:55,280 | 00:02:56,280 | 並沒有第二層 |
| 00:02:56,280 | 00:02:58,280 | 我現在講的是20啦 |
| 00:02:58,280 | 00:02:59,280 | 20%啦 |
| 00:02:59,280 | 00:03:02,280 | 那我們講的20%是第二層 |
| 00:03:02,280 | 00:03:03,280 | 對當然啊 |
| 00:03:03,280 | 00:03:04,280 | 我知道 |
| 00:03:04,280 | 00:03:05,280 | 所以第一層我們的標準 |
| 00:03:05,280 | 00:03:07,280 | 跟歐盟是一樣的 |
| 00:03:07,280 | 00:03:09,280 | 然後第二層的部分 |
| 00:03:09,280 | 00:03:13,280 | 是由7月4號的專家會議 |
| 00:03:13,280 | 00:03:15,280 | 去討論之後 |
| 00:03:15,280 | 00:03:16,280 | 那麼才提出 |
| 00:03:16,320 | 00:03:18,320 | 包含第二層的原型油 |
| 00:03:18,320 | 00:03:21,320 | 那麼跟使用到20%的加工食品 |
| 00:03:21,320 | 00:03:22,320 | 才去下架 |
| 00:03:22,320 | 00:03:23,320 | 這個是在 |
| 00:03:23,320 | 00:03:25,320 | 不是啦你一直重複我的問題 |
| 00:03:25,320 | 00:03:26,320 | 你一直把我的問題 |
| 00:03:26,320 | 00:03:27,320 | 再重複一遍而已 |
| 00:03:27,320 | 00:03:28,320 | 我是問你說 |
| 00:03:28,320 | 00:03:31,320 | 20%這個數字是怎麼訂出來 |
| 00:03:31,320 | 00:03:33,320 | 為什麼不是30%不是10% |
| 00:03:33,320 | 00:03:34,320 | 而是20% |
| 00:03:34,320 | 00:03:36,320 | 是為什麼 |
| 00:03:36,320 | 00:03:38,320 | 就是專家大家討論出來的 |
| 00:03:38,320 | 00:03:40,320 | 那專家是根據什麼 |
| 00:03:40,320 | 00:03:41,320 | 那是怎麼樣 半杯喔 |
| 00:03:41,320 | 00:03:43,320 | 那是怎麼訂出來的20%嘛 |
| 00:03:43,320 | 00:03:45,320 | 是紙骰子還是怎麼樣 |
| 00:03:45,359 | 00:03:47,359 | 那20%是怎麼訂出來的嘛 |
| 00:03:47,359 | 00:03:49,359 | 大家一起討論出來的 |
| 00:03:49,359 | 00:03:51,359 | 我聽說好像是說 |
| 00:03:51,359 | 00:03:53,359 | 因為你們那時候超標4倍啦 |
| 00:03:53,359 | 00:03:56,359 | 所以如果20%的話除以5剛好就不超標了 |
| 00:03:56,359 | 00:03:57,359 | 當然是根據當時候的 |
| 00:03:57,359 | 00:03:59,359 | 就很粗糙嘛 |
| 00:03:59,359 | 00:04:00,359 | 所以現在大家才會講說 |
| 00:04:00,359 | 00:04:01,359 | 到底怎麼訂的嘛 |
| 00:04:01,359 | 00:04:02,359 | 就很粗糙 |
| 00:04:02,359 | 00:04:03,359 | 然後才會講到開會議紀錄嘛 |
| 00:04:03,359 | 00:04:05,359 | 那今天又被爆出來說 |
| 00:04:05,359 | 00:04:07,359 | 那時候中聯職的人在現場 |
| 00:04:07,359 | 00:04:08,359 | 那部長你有說 |
| 00:04:08,359 | 00:04:11,359 | 他來為了因為要看復工 |
| 00:04:11,359 | 00:04:12,359 | 他說明他的製程 |
| 00:04:12,359 | 00:04:13,359 | 有沒有復工的機會嘛 |
| 00:04:13,359 | 00:04:14,359 | 你是說他來說明這件事情嗎 |
| 00:04:14,400 | 00:04:15,400 | 對不對 |
| 00:04:15,400 | 00:04:17,400 | 因為當時候的專家會議 |
| 00:04:17,400 | 00:04:19,400 | 不是只有討論這個下架 |
| 00:04:19,400 | 00:04:20,400 | 因為我的時間有限 |
| 00:04:20,400 | 00:04:22,400 | 所以我們不要去重複我的問題 |
| 00:04:22,400 | 00:04:23,400 | 就是我剛剛已經講了嘛 |
| 00:04:23,400 | 00:04:25,400 | 他是來報告那件事情 |
| 00:04:25,400 | 00:04:26,400 | 他不是來參與 |
| 00:04:26,400 | 00:04:27,400 | 反正20%討論 |
| 00:04:27,400 | 00:04:28,400 | 但現在大家想要知道的是 |
| 00:04:28,400 | 00:04:31,400 | 那請問一下他來就立刻離開嗎 |
| 00:04:31,400 | 00:04:33,400 | 還是那個會他從頭到尾都在場 |
| 00:04:33,400 | 00:04:34,400 | 雖然他不是來討論 |
| 00:04:34,400 | 00:04:35,400 | 他在不在場 |
| 00:04:35,400 | 00:04:38,400 | 後段討論到這個下架原則 |
| 00:04:38,400 | 00:04:39,400 | 他就離席了 |
| 00:04:39,400 | 00:04:40,400 | 他報告完就離席 |
| 00:04:40,400 | 00:04:41,400 | 報告完就走了 |
| 00:04:41,400 | 00:04:42,400 | 報告完就走了 |
| 00:04:42,400 | 00:04:43,400 | 那為什麼你要去 |
| 00:04:43,440 | 00:04:45,440 | 那為什麼你要在同一個會 |
| 00:04:45,440 | 00:04:46,440 | 安排這樣的議程 |
| 00:04:46,440 | 00:04:49,440 | 關係人還可以到現場來報告 |
| 00:04:49,440 | 00:04:51,440 | 為什麼不分兩個會議 |
| 00:04:51,440 | 00:04:53,440 | 他就會遇到那些專家 |
| 00:04:53,440 | 00:04:55,440 | 誰知道會不會在專家會議的時候 |
| 00:04:55,440 | 00:04:57,440 | 他看到哪些專家去影響人家 |
| 00:04:57,440 | 00:04:59,440 | 然後去在外面吃飯 |
| 00:04:59,440 | 00:05:00,440 | 或是在外面碰到的時候 |
| 00:05:00,440 | 00:05:02,440 | 去跟人家聊天 |
| 00:05:02,440 | 00:05:04,440 | 你連這個東西都不會說避嫌 |
| 00:05:04,440 | 00:05:07,440 | 你可以開兩個會嘛 |
| 00:05:07,440 | 00:05:09,440 | 一個會是針對中年子 |
| 00:05:09,440 | 00:05:10,440 | 要不要復工的會 |
| 00:05:10,480 | 00:05:11,480 | 另外一個會是 |
| 00:05:11,480 | 00:05:14,480 | 這個討論20%或後續的議題的會 |
| 00:05:14,480 | 00:05:15,480 | 怎麼讓人家覺得說 |
| 00:05:15,480 | 00:05:18,480 | 為什麼他可以來 |
| 00:05:18,480 | 00:05:21,480 | 跟這個同一天可以碰的到 |
| 00:05:21,480 | 00:05:23,480 | 我覺得大家會質疑嘛 |
| 00:05:23,480 | 00:05:24,480 | 他會有效率啦 |
| 00:05:24,480 | 00:05:26,480 | 其實有時候要考慮到 |
| 00:05:26,480 | 00:05:28,480 | 我期待在兩分鐘 |
| 00:05:28,480 | 00:05:30,480 | 我問另外一個問題 |
| 00:05:30,480 | 00:05:33,480 | 請那個國教署來一下好不好 |
| 00:05:33,480 | 00:05:34,480 | 國教署 |
| 00:05:34,480 | 00:05:35,480 | 麻煩一分鐘內 |
| 00:05:35,480 | 00:05:36,480 | 好一分鐘內 |
| 00:05:36,480 | 00:05:37,480 | 國教署 |
| 00:05:37,480 | 00:05:38,480 | 部長謝謝 |
| 00:05:40,480 | 00:05:42,480 | 謝謝 |
| 00:05:44,480 | 00:05:46,480 | 這個署長今天台北市爆發 |
| 00:05:46,480 | 00:05:48,480 | 一個非常誇張的一個效應事件 |
| 00:05:48,480 | 00:05:50,480 | 一個台北市的A生 |
| 00:05:50,480 | 00:05:52,480 | 小一入學之後 |
| 00:05:52,480 | 00:05:54,480 | 對老師都動出好幾次 |
| 00:05:54,480 | 00:05:57,480 | 累計效應通報高達100次以上 |
| 00:05:57,480 | 00:05:59,480 | 今年上半年就46次 |
| 00:05:59,480 | 00:06:01,480 | 然後攻擊同學58次 |
| 00:06:01,480 | 00:06:03,480 | 破壞公務18次 |
| 00:06:03,480 | 00:06:06,480 | 結果現在學校完全沒有任何的辦法 |
| 00:06:06,480 | 00:06:07,480 | 可以處理他 |
| 00:06:07,480 | 00:06:08,480 | 沒有任何的辦法 |
| 00:06:08,520 | 00:06:09,520 | 結果老師 |
| 00:06:09,520 | 00:06:10,520 | 國三 |
| 00:06:10,520 | 00:06:12,520 | 三年級的老師崩潰 |
| 00:06:12,520 | 00:06:13,520 | 揚言自殘 |
| 00:06:13,520 | 00:06:15,520 | 四年級的老師脊椎受傷 |
| 00:06:15,520 | 00:06:16,520 | 這個 |
| 00:06:16,520 | 00:06:19,520 | 這個我之前在其他地方跟你討論很多次 |
| 00:06:19,520 | 00:06:21,520 | 現在這個東西已經變常態了 |
| 00:06:21,520 | 00:06:22,520 | 我覺得 |
| 00:06:22,520 | 00:06:23,520 | 國教署因為今天這個時間關係 |
| 00:06:23,520 | 00:06:25,520 | 國教署一定要重視 |
| 00:06:25,520 | 00:06:27,520 | 第二件事情韓國現在很多縣市已經 |
| 00:06:27,520 | 00:06:29,520 | 地方政府已經成立教權局 |
| 00:06:29,520 | 00:06:31,520 | 但不是跟鐵拳教育一樣 |
| 00:06:31,520 | 00:06:32,520 | 找一個人去動出 |
| 00:06:32,520 | 00:06:34,520 | 而是說當老師面臨到這種 |
| 00:06:34,520 | 00:06:35,520 | 被學生霸凌的情況 |
| 00:06:35,520 | 00:06:36,520 | 我們怎麼在 |
| 00:06:36,560 | 00:06:37,560 | 行政支持 |
| 00:06:37,560 | 00:06:38,560 | 精神支持 |
| 00:06:38,560 | 00:06:39,560 | 跟法律支持的部分 |
| 00:06:39,560 | 00:06:41,560 | 給給老師支持 |
| 00:06:41,560 | 00:06:43,560 | 不然這樣當老師這麼風險這麼高 |
| 00:06:43,560 | 00:06:44,560 | 被選擇 |
| 00:06:44,560 | 00:06:46,560 | 那這些學生你現在到底要怎麼處理 |
| 00:06:46,560 | 00:06:48,560 | 因為只要一個這個學生全班毀了 |
| 00:06:48,560 | 00:06:49,560 | 連老師都毀了 |
| 00:06:49,560 | 00:06:50,560 | 所以請你們再 |
| 00:06:50,560 | 00:06:53,560 | 仔細思考一下我提的校園安全法案 |
| 00:06:53,560 | 00:06:54,560 | 好不好 |
| 00:06:54,560 | 00:06:55,560 | 趕快找時間來討論 |
| 00:06:55,560 | 00:06:56,560 | 謝謝 |
| 00:06:56,560 | 00:06:57,560 | 謝謝業言之委員 |
| 00:06:57,560 | 00:06:59,560 | 你簡單回應一下 |
| 00:06:59,560 | 00:07:00,560 | 簡單回應一下 |
| 00:07:00,560 | 00:07:02,560 | 簡單回應一下 |
| 00:07:02,600 | 00:07:03,600 | 簡單回應一下 |
| 00:07:03,600 | 00:07:05,600 | 沈博洋委員不在 |
| 00:07:05,600 | 00:07:08,600 | 那接下來我們要做會議宣告 |
| 00:07:10,600 | 00:07:12,600 | 會議宣告 |