| IVOD_ID |
17079 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17079 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-27T08:36:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-27T11:49:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:12:17 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc66a25cdaa7df4ae8a019ac7643fb49cb85db5c09cad80ab786dc16c1b5a93f3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、教育部次長、衛生福利部次長、內政部警政署等就「成少共犯如何解？院、檢、警協作與社政教育體系整合策進展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:43 - 11:49:00 |
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11519.96909375 |
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11520.12096875 |
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1599.697 |
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1614.199 |
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報告委員會初期委員八人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第十一次全體委員會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1615.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1643.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
時間中華民國一百一十四年十一月二十四日星期一上午九十六分至九十十六分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十人請假委員莊瑞雄委員一人列席委員蘇清泉委員等二人列席官員總統府第一局參議林秀琳等人主席吳委員思瑤代理莊昭吉委員瑞雄報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1644.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1665.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
討論事項審查人民請願案共七十三案決議人民請願案共七十三案各案均不成為議案依立法院職權行使法第六十七條第二項規定處理續名理由及處理經過送由程序委員會報請院會審查並通知請願人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1666.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1689.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我們議事錄等一下再來做處理接著介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的人員我們先介紹在場委員陳培宇委員接著我們介紹應邀列席的人員我們司法院少年級家事廳廳長中廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1697.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1722.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
不來 檢察司司長有來 那個是我們張司長矯正署副署長 劉副署長還有我們教育部國民及學前教育署副署長 戴淑芬副署長衛福部 呂健德政次還有保護師副司長 郭副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1724.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1735.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
還有我們社會及家庭署兒少福利署檢驗視察我們張銀旭還有我們內政部警政署我們刑事警察局副局長蕭清潔蕭副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1741.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1767.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
本次我們議程的排定是我們成少共犯如何解這個院檢警協作跟社政教育體系整合設計的一個展觀專題的報告跟詢答我們現在來先進行報告每位發言時間就三分鐘我們現在是不是先請我們司法院我們少年跟家事廳廳長我們鐘鐘林廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1775.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1801.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進今天司法院奉邀前來貴委員會第12次的前期委員會議就陳紹共患如何解 院檢警協作與社政教育體系整合 策進展望做專題報告以下做摘要的報告進行指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1803.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1825.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
首先前提就是少數法因為依照兒童權利公約正當法律程序跟保障兒童的這個司法主體權所以修正了少數法的一個移送前申請強制處分措施的程序那在成少共患上 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1825.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1849.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
就造成了偵查一體以及少年司法先異的一個焊隔之處那基於這樣所以在成少共患如何維護社會治安以及讓偵查能順利的就是在程序能夠順利的進行同時又兼顧這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1851.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1869.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我国少事法的一个保护儿童符合儿权公益的精神那在这个之下我们就由司法院跟行政院还有法务部高检署以及这个警政署卫护部等多次开会演商 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1869.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1898.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那麼我們就精進了下列的作為第一個就是所有各地方少年法庭都定期跟檢察署來開這個聯繫會議然後決議這個成立有效的聯繫窗口然後來做這個所謂的證據的一個共用以及情資的共用那另外同時就這個少年守在地的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1901.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1926.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個管轄權也給他定性下來讓檢警能夠迅速取得少年的強制處分第二個我們的精進作為裡面同時成立了這個所謂的這個少年法庭的這個專門處理申請緊急這個強制處分的一個法官那麼這叫這個這個類似成年人的這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1928.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1935.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
強制處分庭那麼能夠因應這樣跟檢察官迅速共同打擊犯罪那麼另外常態性設有調取這個證據資料的窗口包括筆錄另外有關證人的詢問畫面 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1944.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1957.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
也精進了三個作為也就是說在處理憲法第八條強制人身自由之後那麼迅速與檢察官合作讓檢察官能詢問證人以及遠距詢問以及最後的這個提訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1960.353 |
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1988.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那麼同時進行所謂的專業的培訓邀請資深檢察官還有刑庭的專庭的這個強處庭的法官來對少年法官進行訓練那以上的作為都希望能夠精進突破偵查議題以及成少共患的解決防止這個所謂的黑幫在吸收少年那以上報告敬請各位指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1993.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2013.647 |
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好 謝謝我們由議事錄之前已經選組完畢 尚未確定現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議的議事錄有錯誤或遺漏如果沒有的話沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話我們議事錄就確定了那我們接下來我們請法務部政務次長徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2017.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2042.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉要列席代表本部報告 敬請指教一 由少年擔任第一限制犯罪者的陳紹共犯案件已成為不可忽視的社會現象那詐騙 詐欺集團 販毒集團 組織性暴力犯罪等案件由勝那依本部統計113年少年矯正學校在校受感化教育之少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2042.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2067 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
觸犯詐欺罪之人數已超越觸犯傷害罪之人數第二 依少年事件處理法規定那觸犯刑罰法律少年事件由司法警察調查後移送少年法院司法警察同行 進行同行或逮捕少年均應於同行時期24小時內護送至少年法院檢察官不得偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2067.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2087.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
若是陳少共犯的案件檢察官無法在移送少年法院前先行詢問少年以取得少年證詞那影響擴大追查及向上溯源的即時性那各少年法院對於少年少年共犯管轄認定不一意思呢警方 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2088.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2105.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
亦需異地奔波申請強制處分令狀令因少年法院核發強制處分令狀與成年犯的強制處分令狀核發不同步導致執行時間落差使共犯有串證或湮滅證據之機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2107.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2126.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
第三 面對上開偵辦的困境 行政院分別於113年12月11 114年2月20邀請司法院內政部警政署及本部召開跨院部協商會議並於114年7月9日與司法院共同召集協商陳紹共犯議題會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2127.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2151.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
各地檢署也會分別與各地方法院還有司法警察召開聯繫協商會議溝通作法本部會持續關注運作的成效第四 針對矯正學校少年入校以後課程設計本部矯正署所轄四所矯正學校皆依教育部十二年國民基本教育課程綱要總綱規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2153.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2177.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
於各領域課程設計 適切融入性別平等人權及法治等議題並加強法治教育或將反詐的理念融入相關課程活動中促使學生能夠了解非法行為及其法律責任第五 為利 矯正學校少年復歸社會矯正學校依學生個別需求及意願協助出校之籌劃及 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2178.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2191.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
資源連結 召開轉嫌局輔導會議協助出校或回歸校園連結就業資源或轉介到地方或公立就業服務機構提供相關的就業協助結合設政單位轉介 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2195.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2223.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
惠福部支持服務方案提早建立關係強化少年家庭支持功能並於出校後跟社政單位會共同追蹤輔導一年以貫穿式的服務提升少年保護的措施我想本部是對於少年的保護相關的措施我們都非常的注意那矯正學校在學校學生出校前後密切跟各網絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2224.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2243.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
單位來聯繫以充分的掌握個案情形及時予以學生必要的協助並落實家庭支持就業跟就學轉嫌以及逆境方案充分的合作等各項工作促使學生能夠順利復歸其餘部分請參考本部書面報告完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2250.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2257.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好 謝謝我們法務部徐政次接下來請教育部我們代副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2264.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2280.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席 各位委員本部僅就針對偏差行為學生適性提供與對應輔導課程及措施進行業務報告我們先對偏差行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2282.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2297.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
適性提供與對應輔導課程及措施提出說明針對不同偏差行為的少年他的行為樣態跟情節我們都會提供適性的輔導措施及彈性課程第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2297.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2316.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
针对偏差行为辅导的部分行政院跟司法院有依稍事法已经在110年会衔定定发布少年偏差行为预防及辅导办法先预防后辅导的执行作业方式来办理 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2316.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2334.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
學生如果有適應困難的問題可以透過慈輝班資源式的中途班合作式中途班以及多元彈性的學習內容高關懷計畫等等去穩定學生的就學 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2335.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2359.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第二個部分針對偏差行為的那個防治以及就是避免學生參與不良組織犯罪的那個部分依據少年偏差行為預防及輔導辦法第二條第一項第三款的規定學生有偏差行為比如說與犯罪習性的人交往參與不良組織家暴行於人或者是相互 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2361.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2376.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
鬥毆還沒有到傷害等等這種偏差行為的話那本部內政部跟法務部有嚴定警察機關學校發現學生疑似參加不良組織的那個標準作業流程那國教署也有訂有 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2377.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2405.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
学生疑似组织犯罪追捕小组执行计划等针对这些疑似参与不良组织的学生会依照规定通报并且实施辅导作为另外对防治学生药物滥用的曝险行为我们也会配合行政院新世代反毒策略行动纲令及教育部防治学生药物滥用实施计划落实三级的预防辅导工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2408.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2432.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
針對觸犯刑法法律的學生也會依少年矯正學校設置及教育實施通則第四條的規定與司法院、衛福部、勞動部跟我們相關的民間團體定期開會共同協助少年矯正學校教育跟進行相關的輔導工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2435.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2455.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
另外針對如果學生需要返校 銜接學校教育的話我們從113年起也有訂定過渡性教育措施相關的規定對於如果有危害他人的生命 身體之虞而且有接受過渡性教育措施的必要者 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2456.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2479.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們會協助提供資源那本部是社安網的一環那我們會積極的與衛政、社政、勞政、司法警政、民政等及相關的學校教育網絡那連結中央縣市政府及民間的團體資源一起以一組折多協力的方式協助這些的兒少那以上簡單報告那詳細的請參與我們的書面謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2485.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2491.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝教育部代副署長我們接下來請衛福部政務次長呂健德次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2497.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2524.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好感謝我們司法法治委員會的邀請本部來這邊提出報告以下 第一我國現行依據少年事件處理法以下整頓少事法建立處罰少年還有曝險少年的網絡合作機制那麼根據少事法第18條的規定少年觸犯刑法法律由少年法院依少事法那麼少年有曝險行為是少婦會 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2525.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2537.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那麼這一個輔導機制已經在112年7月1號正式上路那麼第二我們根據超市法第42條第5項的規定認為有必要的時候可以徵詢相關的機關來進行相關的這個處置另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2541.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2564.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
第二點本單會依少年偏差行為預防及輔導相關規定建立相關的資源那這邊呢我想有四點來跟會上來做報告第一根據108年少事法的修正那麼行政院我們也訂定少年偏差行為預防及輔導辦法那麼根據該辦法第六條規定少年有偏差行為而且有學這簡單來說有三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2566.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2585.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
如果說有偏差行為而且有學籍的話那麼是教育機關少年如果不具學籍的話那這是少府會那如果以上兩個都沒有的話那就跟我們就是社政單位根據我們的這一個兒少權法來進行那麼社政的主管機關為了促進少年健全的自我成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2585.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2611.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
在少年偏差少年有接獲他們的偏差行為情勢的時候我們是根據兒少權法來進行相關的這一個保護跟福利措施必要時得結合教育衛生警政少婦會等相關來進行相關處理第三有便於偏差行為的以及兒少及早介入的重要性那麼我們行政院已經把少年輔導工作納入強化社安網 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2611.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2633.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
的計畫重要主軸那麼補助人力推動少年輔導工作並且按照偏差行為以及犯罪樣態來進行那剛剛教育部這邊的副署長也報告我們這邊也跟教育部這邊來共同合作那麼本部將持續與各部會合作來推動落實推動兒少偏差行為的預防以及輔導工作以上衛福部的報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2637.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2643.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 謝謝女市長我們接下來請內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長蕭副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2654.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2681.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生首先對各委員就警政業務的推動的關注與指導 由衷的感謝那今天就承受共犯如何解 願檢警協助與社政教育體系的整合與展望 那內政部就主責的項目做簡料的報告如下第一 少年與成人 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2682.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2707.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
成人共同實施犯罪的趨勢分析那經分析司法院的統計年報近五年成少共犯的比例約佔三成那113年佔了29.83的百分比有稍微上升的趨勢那在分析113年各常見少年犯的案例成少共犯的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2708.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2721.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
比例最高的是妨害秩序 占了59.57次高者為詐欺 占了53.06第二 當前成少共犯的主要問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2723.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2751.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那依現行少事法的規定除五年以上的重罪多由少年法院裁定保護處分並施以輔導或感化教育不會入監服刑那成年後又有這個刑案記錄的突銷機制導致少年犯為犯罪的付出代價過低亦受犯罪集團的煽動而利用來從事犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2752.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2778.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
而司法院近期所修正的條文以就前案的記錄突銷的條件予以限縮應能提高少年犯罪的成本來防止組織犯罪吸收利用少年犯罪本署竟表支持那偵辦成年少年案件分別適用於刑事訴訟法 授試法 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2780.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2788.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
而所適用的法律不同造成 成照共犯的管轄權的割裂那相關強制處分不能同步執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2790.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2812.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
少年共犯傳喚證據的時機等的困境目前法務部與司法院上研議這個相關的配套措施第三 在未來的策進方面本署將與各部會共同合作處理成少共犯的問題如與教育部各級學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2814.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2834.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
強化少年法制的宣導教育各警察機關將報請各地方檢察署的指揮針對組織性的詐欺 毒品 暴力討債等犯罪集團加強溯源查緝的力道將持續配合司法院研修少事法 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2836.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2856.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
本署已含請各警察機關於移送少年案件時能夠詳述與少年共犯的連結檢據檢察官的指揮書等資料來提供少年法院來裁定收容以利繼續向上溯源及其未到案的共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2858.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2880.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
未來本署持續配合法務部與司法院進行研商其能提升少年法官之偵查面相的角色精進成少共犯的刑事偵辦效能 避利溯源偵辦利用未成年犯罪的組織或成人以上做簡略的報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2882.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2903.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好 謝謝我們衛務部內政部我們蕭副局長我們機關代表都報告完畢了相關書面內容請各位來參考並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來做詢答本會委員的詢答時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘會本會委員詢答時間5分鐘並不再延長那我們上午 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2910.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2915.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
10點半截止發言登記現在請登記第一位陳培宇委員發言好 謝謝主席有請法務部還有司法院我們請法務部徐政次還有我們司法院中庭長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2933.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2948.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
委員長好 兩位早安其實我們已經看過了你們相關的報告而且在你們剛剛的口頭報告中也聽得出來一 你們都承認現行的法規還有現行的制度確實有困境對不對那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2949.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2965.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
看起來你們也已經很認真的開過會而且開了不只一次會而且是跨部會之間的會議那甚至在你們的報告中你們還說到今年的十月底為止各地檢署都已經跟各地少年法院法庭司法警察機關召開協商會議與討論可是其實你們講到一句話說 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2969.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2978.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
還沒有辦法有一致且明確的做法很有可能會影響偵查成效所以後續要再持續開會以上我的理解是正確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2980.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3003.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
是的好那如果是正確的我想我們還是要來一起關心到底這個困境是什麼來我們來看第一張其實要先感謝之前是吳宗憲委員排了一個考察然後我們就看見了陳紹共犯的困境那我想當時指出這些困境的檢察官他其實應該真的是在第一線充分感受到在相關偵查過程中的困境第一個管轄認定不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3003.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3030.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
第二个没有办法同步约谈第三没有办法同步搜索因为没有办法同步约谈没有办法同步搜索所以导致于错失关键证据的时机然后也因此就没有有可能就没有办法及时取得供述或者是上游的情资那这确实会让这个困境在现行制度跟现行法规都还没有办法对接情况下我们很多相关案件可能就没有办法好好往下走来下一张 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3031.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3047.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那我們辦公室整理了目前依照少事法或者是刑事訴訟法我們針對少年犯跟成年犯相關的規範樣態非常不一樣還有偵查主體的不同其實主要是因為少年犯的偵查主體是法官而成人犯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3048.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3071.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
这个主体是检察官所以导致于呢不管是侦查犯罪特定情况且情况紧迫的时候或者是要进行强制到场或者是在24小时要解送指定处所证据收集或者是退案发查警方都因为侦查主体的不同而造成对话沟通上的困境那我很想知道目前我认为最辛苦的应该会是 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3073.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3100.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
法官跟檢察官他們都相對是辛苦他們有各自的主體性他們有各自對於相關法規的遵守必須要一直持續下去可是當遇到剛剛那個你們內政部這邊是不是也有說其實相關的案件佔了三成所以也就是說在日常的案件當中你們未來在開了這麼多會議之後你們未來打算如何去解這個命題我想要請兩位輪流發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3106.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3124.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
報告委員 委員真的是點出我們目前遇到的困境那我們現在目前以現有的法令的制度之下我們只能透過各地檢署跟他們少年法庭這邊來做一個協商那可能會有筆錄共 就是說 分享 筆錄分享還有一些 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3130.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3154.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
或者是記起打電話溝通對不對對 然後或者是說他問完了以後我們有機會在少年法庭外面可以以證人身份再傳這些少年來作證目前怎樣就是說甚至有些法院可能他會要求把一些訊問要點然後我們可以提供給少年法庭的法官來做參考當然我們剛才刑事警察局副局長也講得很清楚我們希望在遺送書裡面就 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3155.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3174.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
他跟成年的關係要寫清楚寫得很清楚為什麼我們需要他留下來或者是跟我們合作把它寫清楚讓少年法庭的法官是有機會可以看到可能把它收容的一個必要性我想這個都是我們努力的地方但是目前法定就是這樣所以我們大概努力的部分在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3175.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3189.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我花這麼多時間講出這麼多困境也留一些時間給您回應就是因為我們看見這件事情一到底要不要修法你們的討論會議當中有沒有提到要不要修法第二個我們也很好奇現在相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3190.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3213.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
協助偵辦的司法警察他們的困境他們到底要聽誰的第一時間他們到底要聽誰的如果兩邊都各自有一些堅持跟看法他們其實非常非常的為難或者是我們其實在你們的報告裡面也擔心串證的問題所以我真的認為對於後續的偵辦其實是很大的困境那來下一張所以如果有這些困境來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3214.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3230.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
因為少事法的規定是法官就是少年法這邊如果最後要往下再追查必須要把案件移送回檢察署那對於檢察署的檢察官來說他們會不會有一個心證說既然法官都已經又移回來給我那是不是我還是要接下來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3231.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3260.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那難道我要去證明法官的認定是不對的嗎我要否定他嗎這個我認為對檢察官也會造成壓力所以我們辦公室研究了很久之後發現這個真的困境很大對第一線的警察來說是困境對檢察官來說也是甚至對法官來說也是所以因為在你們的報告裡面我全都看完了我其實還是沒有看到比較具體的後續推進建議所以可不可以再給兩位一些時間告訴我你們後續推進到底你們想要往哪裡去一 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3260.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3271.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
你們要不要立法院支持修法二你們在實際推動跟兩邊的合作跨部會討論當中你們目前如何協助第一線檢察官司法警察還有少年法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3272.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3291.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我想我只就一部分跟委員報告我們當然希望少年在少年法官接手以前有機會有時間讓檢察官能夠問得到這是你的期望對但是在於少年世界法因為主管機關是司法院所以我就說你看你的期待跟他的現行的法規就不一樣來這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3293.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3319.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
報告委員第一個部分我想迅速的跟委員報告三個問題都解決了那癥結點在哪裡我一定會報告那第一所謂的這個成少共患申請強制處分這個各少年法庭有不同見解的部分已經統一了全部適用少事法普通審判權的一個管轄14條 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3321.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3344.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
少年所在地犯罪地都一定要受理不可以再移轉這個不會讓檢警奔波第一個解決了第二個全國各少年法庭跟檢警都定期召開解決成少共患問題的這個會議其中有一個我們兩個部分少年法庭都已經解決了第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3345.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3355.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
成立專責收案的少年法官立即收案 立即裁定那這個時候檢察官在偵查這個檢警這個共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3360.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3387.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
認為什麼時候要出去搜手要去逮捕那只要我們有聯繫窗口兩邊的紀錄科長是聯繫窗口甚至也可以跟法官直接連接法官依照所有下去裁定不會影響所謂的偵查就擺在那邊不會的我們都在督考這個速度這是第二點第三點也已經成立了解決方案就是所謂的證據跟情搜資料共用 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3388.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3399.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那已經成立但是為什麼第三點有一點困難呢因為當訊問完有溯源上面的資料那麼檢察官有沒有什麼需要這個檢察官跟法官要主動互相聯繫那都透過窗口這個有點慢最後一點我要跟委員報告就是所謂的證人訊問問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3409.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3424.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那政人宣問問題我國在兒童人權上就最早已經被指證到113年才實施移送前程序要經上來法官審查強制存這個是被CRC指證第40條第三項明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3425.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3430.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
還有他的這個兩個解釋這個就是所謂24號第37點跟90點說成少共患他必須設有另外的程序去處理偵查中的兒童就18歲以下或者審理中的兒童18歲以下那現在如果要修法要訂定這個世界各國都有成少共患的偵查檢察官偵查可以但有訂定這個CRC跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3455.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3457.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
就是要遵守CRC的這些規定以上 我們現在協助三個事項憲法第八條24小時還有兒前公會事實條24小時強制處分具體到法庭那麼 訊話完畢 程序沒有違法我們立即可以跟檢方合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3475.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3489.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
傳票來帶去詢問這可以這個是要依照那個刑事網路的證人程序第二我們如果收容立即開演劇讓他詢問可以第三如果收容了他馬上要借題可以這個都有一個共識那實務操作我們會去監督這以上報告至於修法確實各國我們已經開了專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3497.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3519.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
諮詢會議各國的制度確實是檢察官為偵查主體陳少公案都是但他是合併偵查或分開偵查都有一套這個符合兒權公約40條的特別兒童保護程序以上說明好 謝謝你說得非常清楚我覺得你說得比報告寫得還要好我覺得你說得比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3520.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3537.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
意思就是說我們承認困境我們看見困境承認困境然後我們確實透過跨部會會議去討論跟解決那對於還沒有辦法解決的部分要後續怎麼透過修法或是更加緊密的溝通我相信聽得出來兩位長官都說得非常清楚那我們後續也會再追蹤好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3537.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3558.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那我覺得今天大家共同看見這個困境代表後續大家要共同努力好那接下來我還是要快速問一下主席不好意思又花了一段時間我要問一下關於邵氏法其實你們司法院也提出修法關於邵氏法的修法行政院這邊提出來了83-1修法增加三年內不再犯的門檻才可以徒消前科的規定其實我還是持續關心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3558.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3575.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
當然塗銷前科這件事情確實是現在社會大眾對於少年犯的想像跟對於行政機關的期待因為我們希望少年犯不要淪為大人犯罪的工具人所以我們希望把這個門檻加高但是對於很多在 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3576.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3595.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
可能觸及犯罪第一線真實生活樣態中的兒少來說可能這件事情他們還是會繼續被他們的老大蒙騙被這些大人拐騙我想後續更多的宣導跟持續進入第一線讓更多的兒少知道一 我們台灣已經要修法這個事情不能再被這些老大這樣亂搞第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3597.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3618.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
對於他們來說提高這個門檻其實不是要擋住他們而是希望保護他們我認為相關的論述或者是持續的社會溝通都還是要必須拜託兩個部會持續跟教育部還有衛福部這邊持續協助好不好是好謝謝那這兩位先請回拜託我想要請一下呂健德次長我要快速跟您講一下關於出法少年的相關安置謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3622.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3651.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
委員早安好 次長很開心在司法法室看見你因為在司法法室就會有其他相關而少的問題第一個我們其實之前跟您討論過端安於第一線的安置機構人員他們發現人力跟資源都很不足因為現在是1比6可是我們根據統計發現現在所有的安置機構裡面被認定為難治兒的其實全台灣將近有4000多位而這個困境我相信您是知道之前我們在討論的時候有說現在的照顧人力比是1比6你之前建議我說到要1比4 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3653.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3669.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們回頭去問安置機構如果降成1比4有一個很大的問題根本沒有那麼多人要去現場工作這是第一個問題會有人力匱乏還有如果沒有分級分類其實難治而繼續塞入安置機構依然是困境如果沒有分級分類所以我之前是跟次長請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3670.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3688.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們可不可以在現行1比6的情況下我們加入非常自信的獎勵計畫讓願意把人力從1比6提到1比4或是做更多精進的安置機構我們給予獎勵這個部分有沒有機會包圍 可以 沒問題我那個非常非常同意這你阿莎莉喔沒有啦 這孩子他媽要比較謹慎啦你若沒有比較謹慎我覺得這個國家跟社會的困難我會覺得這個國家投再多錢都值得所以我覺得這不僅要做而且馬上做啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3701.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3718.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我們現在兩個重點 剛才說的分級分類男子兒的部分 我們現在投入資源不是一比四而已我們現在針對最困難的那個部分我們一方面也要給民間比較多的一個誘因另外第二個就是說整個社工這邊的加成 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3720.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3747.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們這邊我們來我想細節我們都還可以再討論那第二個問題其實我們看我們辦公室開始研究相關數字例如說澳洲以澳洲為例安置一個小孩的晚上成本大概是2572到4227台幣加拿大一個晚上至少是8737我其實沒有要跟你計較錢因為你很有誠意而且衛福部確實對兒少照顧一直很努力我只是想問我們台灣有沒有自己的精算結果有沒有機會六個月內給我相關照顧一個兒少的成本精算結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3750.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3765.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
看你用委託研究的方式或怎麼樣好啊 委託研究OK或者先用示範啦或者先用示範的方式我們先踹出一個一個模式出來對 因為台灣也會有城鄉差距的問題嘛像我們的主席服務台東其實偏鄉的小孩收容成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3765.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3784.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
不見得比都會地區的小孩收容成本還要低而這個收容成本如果都讓民間安置機構去負擔他們的募款也相對很辛苦謝謝次長的承諾第二個相關研究我們來推進再來最後是工作人員的養成跟待遇其實工作人員他們在學校修的都是教育類 幼教類 社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3785.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3812.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
可是實際知道進到兒少安置機構才發現有非常多現場的食物困境是過去的養成課程裡面所沒有學的我知道你們衛福部有開設專業課程可是很多第一線的人告訴我們相關專業課程可能對於現場的銜接不夠我想我們後續來檢討相關課程到底還可以怎麼協助衛福部來精進怎麼把更多民間所需的聲音甚至是我們看到現在民間有很多機構開始自己安排課程在訓練安置人員對不對像萬八計畫他們這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3815.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3839.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以我想後續的安置機構課程我們也一起來做精進跟討論跟報告好不好我們辦公室會再跟你們援我們社福社工過去在這一塊的養成包括實質我覺得都不太夠那我覺得這一塊可以跟整個民間現在目前都在做安置的這個部分我們共同攜手趕快來把一些更Practical的一個那個Training Program趕快把它弄出來好 那我們辦公室就三個議題會再跟次長衛福部來援好 謝謝非常感謝裴委員對於這個問題的關心 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3844.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3845.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我想接下來有請吳宗憲委員來做宣達 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3869.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3877.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好 謝謝主席那我們請司法院警政署還有法務部跟小政署司法院中廳長法務部徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3880.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3907.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
好 謝謝我延續剛剛陳培宇委員的一些問題因為我其實一直以來我重視的問題一直以來我質詢過很多次的問題其實跟剛剛陳培宇委員所提出來其實蠻類似的其實一個很重要的狀況就是在陳少共犯的時候他所引發的偵查割裂的問題這個是我們目前一個還沒有徹底解決的一個難題 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3910.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3928.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我想我今天要談的三個議題是前端少婦會制度的漏接還有終端陳少共犯偵查的割裂還有後面矯正廚藥的無效這根本都跟不上目前詐欺犯罪結構的變化那我們先講雖然上一次法務部長跟我在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3929.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3948.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
在那邊講來講去說他不認為詐欺是民怨第一名但我這邊還是跟各位報告我後來回去再詳細的調查過詐欺確實現在是民怨第一名我這邊先說第一件事情我剛剛講的那三個問題也是我們現在為什麼詐欺犯越打越多少年車手抓不完的一個真相 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3950.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3968.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個顯示我們前端的漏接然後終端制度被卡死了然後最後送到矯正機關也是去度假然後虛隱故事浪費人民的納稅錢所以整個系統都在失靈才會導致現在有源源不絕的小朋友被當免洗筷來做犯罪的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3969.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3992.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
今天警政署的報告我看到在少年犯罪中有將近三成是和成年人共犯所以我們單看少年詐欺犯罪像車手就有超過一半以上都是成年人在背後控制但是事實上我跟各位報告現實上絕對是更多有太多的黑數了所以如果我們今天沒有完整的一個偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3994.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4023.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你根本抓不到後面是誰在操控這些少年所以詐騙集團通常都是集團性的甚至有一些還躲在國外或是有完整的防火牆如果這個沒有處理好永遠這個詐欺打不完那我們現在會不會我們整個少年法院變成是詐欺集團好用的一個工具因為我國有超級完整的少年保護就會不會被詐欺集團剛好利用來 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4025.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4050.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
來當作吸收少年的一個工具因為他都跟那些少年犯講沒關係你被抓到了前科也會徒銷那你去了那法官也會把你當作是學生一樣的照顧那你出來了也沒事也不會有前科登記然後所以這些詐欺集團就源源不絕地用小朋友那其實受害的是誰是小朋友一批換掉再一批再一批再一批有更多不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4051.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4066.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那个生力军进去所以我担心的是这个问题就我们会不会在以为误以为我们在保障未成年人的同时使我们是害惨了更多未成年人这是我们对于我们现在制度一定要去讲一个很重要的点 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4067.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4091.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
因為上一次我也問過法務部跟司法院因為我們之前對於陳少共犯的偵查的方式其實有嚴重的割裂所以一般第一線的偵查人員跟我抱怨最多的就是他抓到一個詐欺集團成年人歸地檢署然後少年歸少年法院就整個偵查割裂當然剛剛廳長也有提到說我們會有很多模式我們會盡快問完然後讓檢方來去 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4093.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4111.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
来把这个少年拿去问证人笔录但是我跟两位报告现场有很多当过检察官的人我们都知道很多时候问笔录就是那一瞬间我们都在跟时间赛跑第二个有很多人在被问第一次笔录的时候暗中出供他在第一次笔录的时候最有可能讲出事实 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4111.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4129.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
但是在第一次比喻问完之后在做第二次比喻的中间他知道你要问什么他知道被你已经被你知道了什么所以他开始会开始在圆自己的黄开始在那边跟你兜圈子所以第二次新闻比喻第三次新闻比喻的时候如果你没有更新的证据提出来你比喻常常问不到东西 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4130.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4148.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那這個就是我現在擔心的一個點去少年法庭法官在第一次問完之後他後面在檢察官在問的時候他講的都跟前面都不一樣都是圓過之後的謊甚至少年犯他在到少年法院的時候有成年人跟著那成年人會怎麼樣教他要之後要怎麼面對檢察官這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4150.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4167.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
少年法庭這邊沒有考量過還有一個任何犯罪的偵辦我們有時候醞釀了他自然就醞釀了三個月五個月八個月都有可能但是我們把資料交給少年法庭的法官的時候他就只是那瞬間看完之後他根本搞不清楚這個案子他就開始問筆錄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4168.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4196.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
他問完之後會不會把整個案子毀掉讓這個少年犯本來會講的到檢察官那邊就不講我跟你講這都是偵查第一線實務絕對遇到我現在跟各位報告的就是偵查實務第一線會遇到那我就說現在現場好幾位檢察官我都認識大家都知道我在講什麼這部分要麻煩那個廳長這是很嚴重的事情麻煩廳長因為廳長畢竟院方不是走偵查出身的還是要多跟法務部這邊溝通一下好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4198.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4220.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我想現在我必須要跟國人報告幾個點第一個點就是像北檢破惡的扎梯集團裡面有五個少年在裡面就是北檢在偵辦就有一個少年戶籍在花蓮一個在新竹就還要求他們要把少年犯送到戶籍所在地的法院剛剛廳長有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4223.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4251.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
就是這個部分廳長現在是不是所有的就是依據行為地來處理就好統一由行為地那邊的上聯法院來處理報告委員確定而且這個如果是駁回抗告一定二審會支持沒問題因為我剛好聽你在回答陳培宇委員的部分那這個問題應該解決了就是強制全國要一致共用不能說法官在說我是獨立審判好不好這部分再麻煩您這邊要確定第二個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4253.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4274.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
少年犯抓到24小時要送少年法院那很多時候偵查我們很清楚很多人不懂偵查他聽問24小時這麼長時間你還沒時間問嗎但事實上我們在第一線偵查過的人就知道24小時遠遠不夠用我們有非常多的證物要釐清我們要搜索我們有很多證人要問所以24小時常常是不夠用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4275.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4303.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以變成很多時候重要的證人是少年的時候我們會變成是檢察官看得到碰不到我們很想問這個少年你的上游是誰車手頭是誰但是很多時候因為少年要送少年法院然後就線索就從此斷掉這部分是很麻煩的一個很大的問題所以廳長黃金24小時這個時間差你制度上面你們有沒有思考該怎麼辦該跟檢方怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4306.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4331.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
是 報告委員剛剛我有說明了三點的處理方式那麼但是如果還是不符合偵查議題迅速一起來處理那實質上各地檢跟少年法庭還有司法警察有三個精進的作為第一個就是說司法警察他有初步的詢問他的詢問的共患跟上游會 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4332.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4347.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
更緊密去做第二個就少年法官已經有共識對這個進來有共患的那警察單位有提供一些意見後檢察官的指揮室有提供意見那法官也會就這個共患詳細的來問這個少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4350.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4356.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那麼法官跟檢察官訊問的證人筆錄都有證據能力這個是在協商共同方面第三點就是要朝著這個方向來走將來如果大家有共識要跟國外一樣要在陳紹公案有一個所謂偵查主體檢察官全部來處理但只要符合CRC就可以我們覺得會支持這個一起來研議修法謝謝廷長但我還要講一個因為我看過大家的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4379.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4399.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我覺得建議檢察官把問題交給法官問都有證據能力沒有錯但是你們考量的只是證據能力你們沒有考量到偵查細節的部分整個偵查失誤的問題所以說有時候看到這個我會覺得這好像就是大家在象牙塔辦公室裡面想出來的解決方法這個在第一線完全不好用 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4400.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4426.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
而且絕對會耽誤到整個刑事的偵查你要知道檢察官警察調查官他發動一個搜索是好幾個月偵查的這醞釀才出來的我剛有跟各位報告但是你要去叫一個法官要馬上要能夠搞清楚這個案子在搞什麼案子的核心是什麼不可能啦我們那個券有時候疊起來比人還要高法官真的沒有時間能夠理解案子是什麼所以這個不是一個真正解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4428.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4456.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那個問題的方法就有說甚至把偵查當噁戲只是給全國人民一個樣板來看我們有做了這些好像有效其實真的效果真的不好而且檢察官還要等法官開完庭在法官開庭之前甚至碰不到這個重要的證人這個少年犯這個會讓檢察官很難處理這個案子所以你們堅持程序正義沒有錯但是堅持程序正義難道要在犧牲打擊犯罪的效率上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4458.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4475.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這兩個東西一定要平衡而不是說為了成於爭議打擊犯罪這個一點都不在乎因為你這樣子會製造更多的未成年被利用的被害人所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們邵氏法雖然是保護但是不能溺愛 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4477.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4499.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我是擔心邵氏法現在的狀況已經變成溺愛未成年人我剛剛講的溺愛未成年人看起來好像我國法治很保障未成年人但是最後的結果是什麼詐欺集團或這些犯罪集團更喜歡用這些年輕人因為沒有什麼成本另外我再請問一個主要的還有一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4502.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4531.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我很擔心黑幫在陳紹共犯的時候他一直把小朋友當免洗筷警政署的報告就已經說這個房子著火了結果手上握有滅火器的這些司法院還在程序優先這個就不好了好不好真的跟偵查上面要有要一個橫頻不能說程序保障無限的擴大然後對於犯罪的偵查到最後就搞不定了這個可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4532.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4561.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
還是司法院你們再思考一下看有什麼改善的方式因為現在小朋友都覺得說反正我去問警察也不能對我怎麼樣那法官只是念一念叫我回去乖乖聽爸媽的話請問一下這個以現在的小朋友這有效果嗎所以我們不能讓本來應該成為社會棟樑的這些小朋友以後長大變成社會的問題這部分我想麻煩你們要注意我們真的很恐懼這些小孩子在這種縱容的制度之下價值觀會崩壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4562.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4574.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
或者是說我們也恐懼說未來台灣會不會衝刺的這種很多沒有法治觀念的人這個再麻煩你們能了解警政署我想請問一下這個少年割頭案其實這個少年在 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4578.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4604.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
加害行為的前一年111年的時候就已經有被查獲身上有帶有刀子但是好像也沒有什麼處理那警政署是認為說這個他不是經常性的攜帶刀械他只被查獲一次所以他沒有啟動保護機制那我想請問一下你們這麼拘泥於這種法律文字是不是就錯失了司法及早介入輔導的機會小朋友帶刀上學就有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4606.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4623.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
你們有沒有希望說修正一些相關的標準有沒有跟委員報告就是因為他是在學在學所以變成這個輔導由學校來那個如果他不是如果是輟學就是當然我們的哨會會來做開案接辦那有關是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4625.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4643.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
少數法的規定就是處罰 偏差 復選這些其實都是疊加的那我們也是請照會一直從要求 從後來做結案因為這樣我這樣聽來聽去還是比較官方式的說法那我還是跟各位報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4645.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4661.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
这个小朋友带刀上学这其实是一件蛮严重的事情不能说我们拘泥于文字说非经常性所以我们就不启动一些司法的厨艺因为这会让其他的未成年人在学校上学的那些小朋友其实都是陷于危险 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4662.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4676.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這部分我想麻煩你們稍微看看文字的部分有沒有辦法再加以修正到能夠讓保障能夠更周全最後我是想請法務部還有矯正署 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4682.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4691.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好 那個防護部的矯正署我要提一個數據監獄內詐欺洗錢受刑人佔全體受刑人的20%那少年矯正學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4693.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4714.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
跟詐欺有關的這些學生佔26%也就是說成人監獄的五分之一少年矯正機關的四分之一都跟詐欺犯有關但是你們的處遇策略只有最老掉牙的法治教育 上課 輔導你們就只有這個但是上課有效嗎很多上課無效因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4715.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4740.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
如果上课有效他在外面听老师讲就会很有效果了所以不能只拘泥在请他们坐在教室里面听还有就是说有时候我们说医疗上面对于没有病逝感的病人要怎么医治这是很多医生烦恼的事情那这些少年犯他们去ATM领钱他面对了一个机器把钱领出来他没有办法去感受到那些被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4741.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4768.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那个痛心疾首甚至自杀的那种痛苦他们感受不到所以你今天叫他那边上课跟他一直讲然后他就在底下玩他的那我有去监所去视察那我们去的时候那矫正所去视察那老师在上面上课小朋友在后面做他自己的事情所以效果不大这个变成我们在骗纳税人而已我们在骗一般的民众说我们有在做事实上一点效果都没有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4769.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4793.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
對小朋友來說矯正機關是上上課去度假中心去度個假白吃白喝的然後度個假就出來又度精了他們的想法是這樣這樣是不會悔悟的他們也不懂得自己對社會傷害多大所以我希望法務部能夠在兩個月內提出炸雞飯土育的精進報告那內容必須包括第一個引入被害人NGO的保護團體進行衝擊式的輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4796.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4822.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
因為我們在跟金管會接觸的時候金管會也是跟我們建議現在很多詐欺犯其實很多銀行他們認為說自己要盡到企業的社會責任他們願意提供一些服務提供一些對於這些詐欺未成年被告的幫助那你們是不是可以跟他們結合去運用社會的資源去把這些被害人這種保護的NGO團體我們能夠把他引入去協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4823.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4849.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
然後甚至我們讓被害人能夠對這些小朋友能夠現身處地的告訴他家庭因為這個詐欺案而怎麼樣分崩離析甚至有人去自殺我自己就驗過因為受詐欺而自殺的死者我自己都驗過了那我也問過好幾個以前同事大家都有類似的經驗有驗過那種因為受詐欺而去自殺的所以這不是一個社會少數的問題那還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4852.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4869.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
请落实劳动工作矫正他们的金钱观要让他们知道一分耕耘一分收获而不是用骗的骗到的就是自己的那孝平不孝昌然后有钱就好不能让他们这样还有就是少年出所之后更生还有职业转弦 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4870.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4891.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
也要請司法院的少年保護官也要稍微落實一下因為我要強調法務部一定要知道矯正機關是司法最後一道防線你前面沒有處理好或是前面辦了然後丟給矯正機關就矯正機關也沒有處理好大家就一團亂我們現在其實有一點失控了這個不是說交交報告寫一寫就好你要真的落實能夠解決他們問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4894.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4922.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
而且也請思考院不要再拿保護未成年人當做一切的藉口然後要整個讓犯罪偵查都無效最後10秒鐘今天有一份新聞就是有受刑人在抱怨說監所裡面他帶小朋友進去受刑的時候結果小朋友的營養還不足他吃的東西根本小朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4923.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4944.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
吃这些东西营养会不够他已经出来抱怨了还有小朋友在哭的时候他只能把小朋友抱到走廊或抱到公用厕所里面去安抚还有监所里面过于闷热小朋友那些有的年纪很小一岁两岁受不了在那边哭闹这个不对今天父母犯错小孩子不能让他进去一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4945.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4968.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
一起這樣子啦你們是不是要改善有帶小朋友進去受刑的這些受刑人你是要改善一下他們的環境因為不是為了這個受刑人而是為了小孩好不好這小孩是無辜的就小孩子在裡面吃的東西營養也不足要接受醫療接受早療跟醫療協助也沒有機會然後小朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4968.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4987.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
他说连需要活动一个礼拜只能安排三次每次十分钟的户外活动那你这小朋友的健康会受影响啊拜托去厘清这些事情是不是真的这个事情跟刚刚那些我都非常的重视我想今天主席一定非常重视 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4988.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5016.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
帶未成年人進去受刑的結果小朋友一個禮拜只能三次每次十分鐘戶外活動你要這個運動量大的小朋友怎麼辦稍微說明一下因為這個報導有點沒問題我今天不用我只是因為沒有時間了我只是說請你們釐清告訴我一下這個報導真實性以及如果他說的是真的改善的方式為何好不好是好這就是國家未來的棟樑啦好謝謝各位謝謝主席好謝謝吳宗憲委員也謝謝兩位好那接下來有請羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5025.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5052.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
主席有請司法院中廳長以及我們法務部徐次長還有內政部的蕭副局長好 請中廳長 徐次長還有蕭副局長委員長我現在先請教次長炸期嚴重嗎情況蠻嚴重的我們目前打炸的司法人力足夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5054.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5080.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
不能用足夠來講就是說我們的業務負擔很重好 業務負擔很重那我們來看看我們現在這個人力的分配跟工作分配上到底出了什麼問題我看到這個高等台灣高等法院這個月13號的一宗刑事判決有一個常年旅居國外的成性女子被控在回台灣的時候在區公所外拿走一把傘 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5082.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5101.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
結果遭檢方依竊盜罪起訴 纏送一年半法院一審判定監視器畫質太糊 根本看不清竊賊的臉而且成女所提出的手機記錄跟社會局列印資料的時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5103.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5129.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
證明竊賊偷閃的同時他人根本還在屈公所內所以獲判無罪我想請教市長你知道檢方接下來採取的行動是什麼嗎我們尊重檢察官檢方還是上訴二審還是上訴結果高院在何怡婷判決裡她再次詳細說明成女應該判無罪的理由但也大篇幅的抨擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5131.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5150.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
檢警追訴犯罪是違反比例原則在這個案子上Eason已經跟你講不可能是陳女士竊賊但Eason的公訴檢察官沒有在積極舉證他的竊盜犯行用例行公事的心態來提出上訴他也特別指出啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5151.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5172.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
就算檢察官認為有足夠的犯罪嫌疑立法者仍然賦予檢察官違罪不舉或還起訴處分的裁量權那這個案件根本違反比例原則而且還損及無辜民眾對於各自的保護你知道這位陳姓女子她要面對什麼樣的一個司法的一個爛訴的糾纏跟消耗嗎 請問市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5177.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5200.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個案件會議拖這麼久中間應該就是有大概就是否認那否認的話就是我告訴你連續被兩個省級法院電你導致他要在一省二省偵查不斷的委請律師光律師費幾百把傘都可以買了更何況人家還說根本沒有證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5207.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5236.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我想點這個事情上一次我在質詢我們的部長的時候我講另外一個例子給大家聽清潔隊員撿到一個廢棄的電鍋殘值32元他看到一個拾荒老婦覺得很可憐就把電鍋送給拾荒老婦請問次長這位清潔隊員最後的下場是什麼下場是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5240.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5268.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
被贪污治罪条例起诉啦这个构成要件就是贪污治罪条例来了喔我还是要特别讲啊32元的电锅没关系啊你要讲构成要件你们的部长还讲说这个他不合理啊他要再修法了是我们有在修12条我们有这个修法计划你知道我今天质询问你第一个问题是什么我知道就诈骗诈骗的人力的问题对啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5270.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5285.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我覺得今天司法官很辛苦警察很辛苦連法官都很辛苦檢察官都很辛苦台灣詐騙爆天亮你光打詐都已經是沒有力氣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5287.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5316.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
但是我看到你們今天花很多功夫在一些我直接講我真的覺得很奇怪的案子上面在消耗司法人力啊那些法官還要進來去判這些無聊的一把傘的案子連證據都收集不齊全就隨便送到法院去一審二審都打臉還是一樣啊因為引以如意要上訴啊就一把屈公所愛的傘啊法院還說根本就不是他啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5318.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5346.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
结果人家侦查一审二审要跑来跑去我想请问次长律师费谁出你出吗不是吧没有没有这个律师费谁出嘛来我想请问我们的厅长请问这个当事人律师费是谁出的当然是当事人出对呀除非我们有月券除非是他这个中低收入一审就十万块去申请法两审就二十万 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5348.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5373.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
侦查阶段是不是要请律师出庭几十万就没了啦一把伞多少钱啊7-11买60块新伞可以买多少把伞要不要算一算我为什么要讲这个事情我再来讲下一件事来就像上次我质询的来请教次长太子集团什么时候进到台湾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5379.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5406.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
進來台灣多久了如果是情資的話應該是108吧我直接講我告訴你進來台灣9年了警管會通報你們有6年了調查局說開始辦有4年了辦到最後美國開始10月8號動作之後我們開始搜索對不對約談抓人對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5407.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5426.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
在那之前有沒有搜索 沒有有沒有約談證人 沒有有沒有今天分案調查 沒有可是我要講45億是小錢嗎 請問次長不是不是嘛這麼大的違法金流在台灣串了九年 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5428.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5449.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
通報就六年 調查就四年包括司法警察是有掌握相關的線索很好啊 掌握真好啊掌握真好 既沒搜索也沒約談對不對那我前置犯罪的但是你們交保還蠻大方的抓到八成都交保那個是比例的是在這個警察裡面我跟你講 那個特助啊十五萬交保還抓到我們院長震怒咧我們院長不是震怒 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5457.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5483.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
打擊詐欺人員士氣大家批的是法院啦批的是法院 但結果是什麼地方法院還發新聞稿說那是訓後交保 那跟法院沒有關係這都後話我要回頭講的重點在哪裡啊來 我們今天看到你今天為什麼今天整個的所謂的打詐人力的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5486.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5512.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我光看今天檢察官我們的司法系統我們檢察官檢調我都覺得你們的有時候辦的效率也是很好啊我印象很深刻啊有一個民眾在網路上貼了一個綠色雞蛋說是黑心臭雞蛋他也沒說是這雞蛋是什麼哪裡來的喔他也只是說他買來的喔結果呢8個小時被約談被抓起來速度也很快啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5514.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5541.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
然後有貼檢察官照片對不對也是一樣啊火速啊幾個小時就抓到人啊你這些點點滴滴看起來那麼有效率的事情在這種事情上那我們看到詐欺9年無動於衷貼個綠色雞蛋8小時抓到人啊9年無動於衷你叫人民怎麼看啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5543.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5565.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我上一次質詢我對部長光跟一個民怨第一名這句話吳宗憲講的跟他吵架吵個三分鐘我就不懂了到底為什麼我再問一次嘛TBS最新民調多少人認為台灣炸氣很嚴重百分之多少你知道嗎 次長報告委員 這個資料我沒有拿到92%你知道多少人認為不嚴重多少人 4% |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5572.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5601.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
幾乎全民共憤啊 全民公憤啊詐欺的言重是全民的公憤啊就為了一個民怨第一名在那邊吵架吵半天我還是拉回到今天你就看到了啊那個捐電鍋的貪污起訴啊 捐鍋者誅詐欺者喉 太子集團九年開開心心 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5602.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5627.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
然後呢沒偷閃者豬因為那個陳姓女子根本沒偷然後呢詐欺者逍遙爽九年還在爭執民怨是不是第一名我們立法院到現在為止我相信次長你知道打詐的預算我們都非常支持的包括我們主席也很支持都很支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5629.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5658.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
可是今天我們看到的打詐的成效辦案的心態你關那麼多的重大詐欺案件我到現在不能理解啊就像我上次質詢我講啊如果今天說實在話如果說今天他來台三個月九個月一年你因為要埋線要去調查要去收證你說沒有關係啦那個大案子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5660.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5680.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
不是啊 我也問過金管會啊他事實無疑是非常大的金流耶這麼大金流串來串去 台灣串來串去至少串六年 你們知道以後串六年他進來九年 但是被我不算前面金管會通報之前那三年通報你們就六年 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5683.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5691.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那請問你 今天我們看到為什麼講下一代很慘啊現在炸雞集團 抱歉啦已經在摧毀我們國家未來主人翁啦是不是啊 我們請教育部的我這樣講沒錯吧整個炸雞 包括車手炸雞集團侵入校園的問題越來越嚴重嘛 對不對對啊你今天如果沒有把炸雞車主根絕國家下一代就陪在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5713.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5724.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
講得這麼沉重就希望我們的政府部門真的真的拜託把人力精神好好用在打詐上面 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5727.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5747.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
好 謝謝羅志強委員這個對比很強烈那確實我們那整個打詐這個不用做民調也知道說這個是國內民眾還是非常氣憤的一件事情我們政府也應該有更具體的一個作為成效啦 最主要還是要有成效啦來 接下來我們請王逸川委員詢答羅志強 我跟你講一下這支就要落開了你看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5757.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5764.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們請廳長跟政務次長請市法院總廳長 徐政次委員長 委員長謝謝召委 今天擺這個節目因為我看你們兩個人在講話我相信都委託說不出來所以不好意思說對方配合到的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5787.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5813.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我從這個法務部的這個報告啊我請這個廳長啊你來討論一下法務部的報告啦他說他面臨的三大困境第一個管轄權你剛才有解說這一定改觀了嘛對次長這比較重要嘛是是這沒問題嘛那第二個困境是強制處分執行步調的歧義啊這廳長您有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5815.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5842.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
報告委員這個目前我們在推動下已經解決那我報告如下就每一個縣市的少年法庭檢察官警政單位警察單位定期召開這樣解決這個問題的會議用三個方式解決第一成立一個專案的一個聯繫窗口第二我們所有的法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5843.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5868.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
都有受理窗口馬上受理不延誤第三配合檢察官要速度徵收第四就是有關情資共用跟這個證據共用只剩最後一個就是訓問這個通行強制處分的少年檢察官能不能先問的法律問題這樣子那有沒有發生過檢察官啊次長有沒有發生過檢察官啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5869.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5879.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
說那個年輕人要把他收容 不能讓他回去那法官 法院 看了看了說這沒什麼問題這讓他回去怎麼有什麼問題你們肉發生過這個 有爭執過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5884.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5901.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
報告委員這的確是實務上發生的事情因為少年法庭的法官他的看點他是以輔導跟保護少年沒錯我們這邊是犯罪偵查是想要溯源再去找到成年人所以觀念上是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5902.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5921.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那可能少年法庭的法官會認為這個少年就像大家講的免洗塊他本身還好可能因為家境清寒等等他想說這個回去就好了可是這個就會影響到後面偵查的作為他一去可能又被成年人拉走了或被恐嚇了叫他不能講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5923.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5949.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他可能一回去之後在法院門口接他了是詐騙集團的律師 對對吧 對所以我們其實也是在保護他我們希望說暫時不要讓他在外面遊蕩又被這些成人又帶走了好 那所以我請問一下廳長在實務上 是如果這個檢察官他通知這個法官說那個你不要幫他 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5950.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5953.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這個時候 實務上這個時候我們的法官一般會做什麼歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5967.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5984.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
包括雖然法官個案決定說不收容是審判核心但現在我們經過這樣的一個聯繫會議跟我們開的研討會跟促進目前用三個方案法官其實有很多資料可以收容保護性收容少年也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5985.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6010.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
警察加強續名載名這個他加入這個共犯的詐團檢察官又聲明他有篡證以及去維護那這個時候第三個我們知道這些詐團車手的孩子很少回家後住在旅館所以即以這樣我們照事法26條絕對符合收容那個叫保護性收容還篡證收容 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6012.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6030.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
以及再回到詐團的收容所以現在的比例比較高有收容起來那這個需要大家一起合作如果這個資料不太夠法官會用保護性比較多的就把它釋放就是說所謂責護所以目前有這樣的促進我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6033.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6052.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
邵家廷在法官的在職研習我們都親自到場開課去對這些蒐集資料分析促進法官那檢察官也有善意的回應我們得到了很多紀錄他們就這個部分也會加強請法官去考慮孩子篡證回到詐團很好謝謝廷長你告訴我這個社會都有聽到詐團也有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6061.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6069.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這很關鍵喔 集團也聽到了就是說這個年輕人現在我們這個少年法庭這裡的法官要不要收容他你跟我說的一點最重要的就是說這個年輕人有沒有固定的住所就是說他可能離家出走 很久了家人可能也要隔代教養阿嬤也不知道這個年輕人他們孫子跑去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6090.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6108.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
還可以帶中部跑去 跑來台北帶東部跑去台北 帶南部跑去台北要創這個詐騙集團嘛所以這個時候法官在實務上他就有可能把他收容了就是說現在有這樣的一個機制好 那我請問一下這個次長剛剛廳長這樣說你有沒有放心或是你也了解說會開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6116.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6129.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
還是有這個改變是 的確市法院廳長這邊是非常非常的支持我們這一項的一個協商的會議的運作但是這個部分我們認為老實講我們還要觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6132.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6153.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
因為真的是 這是少年法庭法官的核心的工作有時候有些法官可能會跟我們的希望有點落差但是我們會持續的溝通跟這些法院的來聯繫啦希望能夠得到最好的結果是啦 因為也怕說這樣以後這裡的法官回到這裡我看都會收容這樣也不對有時候要變成這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6161.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6167.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
把他綁起來 到時候檢測官又不高興 怎麼又有一些糾紛在內所以法官說開去跟收容啦 也有可能會過頭去所以這樣的一個機制 你們定期有在檢討那剛剛提到這個 我覺得這個少年 相關的人他們被詢問啦 叫來問 還是這個時間點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6187.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6189.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
就是說喪心 喪毫 這時間點現在還沒有一個好的共識就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6195.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6220.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
是不是要說 就是你們的法務部你們說你們有第三個困境嘛這個共犯取證的時機的機制嘛對 因為現在規定就是我們檢察官不能碰就是說這個案子在警察問完以後就要在24小時內護送到少年法庭檢察官是不能碰所以我們要透過一個協商可能筆錄 我們筆錄啦或者是一些資訊 共享 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6222.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6239.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
警察問你要筆錄的給你嗎警察的筆錄我們可以拿到即時拿到 對即時拿到 然後同步就到法院去了法院問完以後我們希望能夠同時就取得在少年法庭的筆錄這塊法院現在有什麼問題嗎沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6242.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6257.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
報告委員沒有問題因為成立了兩邊的一個緊急聯繫窗口至少都紀錄科長隨時都on call那所以這個筆錄完法官馬上核定可以先傳真密封再補正式的公文都沒有問題因為剛才這個吳宗憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6261.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6274.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
檢察官啦 不是 委員啦 他才做檢察官嘛他說有時候在這個偵查的技巧啦 細節的部分喔他意思好像是說 發光到不發動盲唇 檢測光想要盲的那個味覺啦這 廳長你的看法是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6283.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6295.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
確實在偵查實務上有一個指揮檢察官他就所有可能的情資他掌握的非常詳細那這些詳細資料都是密封的在檢察官那邊那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6297.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6303.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
少年法官是依據現場收證的資料來去問但是我們現在都會去注意這個共患 詐團共患所以會讓少年再多我們再多問他就在這個共患裡面他做什麼 什麼角色所以才會有很多地檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6317.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6333.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟法院聯合起來說檢察官如果你有更細部要我們問的你可以密封送過來或傳真過來那我們的窗口拿到我們的法官願意在這個即時合法性詢問的程序跟實體詢問一起詢問接著筆錄會送給你但那個剛剛大委員吳委員是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6341.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6350.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
檢察官的去找出溯源跟法官不太一樣他是有這樣的說明所以現在這個機制也有啦就是說檢察官希望這個法官道問什麼問題這個機制現在也有嗎 次長我們已經有這個機制我們也在持續的觀察說是不是推行的很順利我們在持續關注所以你們這個定期檢討的這個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6367.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6380.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
就繼續推下去 年輕人有他們的管理這有時候就是兩邊 大家多溝通多協調才能這個案子辦下去會比較順利好 謝謝謝謝王宜川委員詢問 接下來請沈發慧委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6401.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6419.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
主席我們是不是先請廳長中廳長我們也請法務部徐次長委員好我請你們兩位上來後面大概就這麼多人上來這個 君榮壯盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6422.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6444.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我想事實上今天主席有安排這個主題我們看到前面有幾位委員大家其實大概最關鍵的一些點剛才都已經有問過了但是其實每一個委員他站的角度跟他對於解決這個問題的方法的視角其實不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6448.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6469.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
但是其實這一切所有這些現在這些問題大概我們現在整個法治體系它就是我們按照我們這個少年事件處理法這樣子的一個法治體系這個法治體系它就是本身它就在第三條裡面它就規定有關少年處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6470.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6484.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
他把這個少年的部分分成處罰的少年那進入刑罰的時間那另外有曝險的少年把分流了那分流之後在第18條他就直接就是讓這個有關於處罰少年的時間就直接由少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6485.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6510.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
由少年法院來移送這個是這個體制設計本身就是這樣子那當初設計的體制它也是符合這個也是符合兒童權益公約的相關一些保護那時候設想就是說那就這樣成人就走這一條路少年就走這一條路看起來是一個非常清楚的一個設定但是問題是現在整個犯罪的形態 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6512.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6538.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
的這種組織化 網路化包括剛才這些委員大家所質詢關心的這些相關的這些詐欺案件它常常就是它就是這種所謂的成少共犯的這種結構幾乎變成常態那也因為這樣子一個案件它的這個成少共犯變成常態所以導致我們原本設計的少年事件處理法的這樣子的架構體系在運作上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6539.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6561.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
你如果站在司法院的立場我們少年事件處理法本來我們少年事件處理法開宗明義第一條就講說我們為什麼要這樣子分流為什麼要這樣做就是為了要健全為了保障少年健全的自我成長就是本來他就是要調整他的成長環境角質他的性格這是少事法本身的宗旨跟目標那檢察對檢察官來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6564.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6581.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個偵查犯罪這個才是他的重要目標所以會導致像剛剛有不同委員就認為說你們少年法院法官你們偵查技巧你們根本就無法發現真實無法把犯罪偵破大概是這個意思他講的白話就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6581.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6597.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
你們這個少年法院你們的法官沒有我們檢察官在偵查犯罪事實你們沒有那個技巧啦所以常常導致暗中出貢的結果結果你們問過了之後我們再過來再到檢察官來的時候我們已經問不出來了等等諸多這樣子的講法但是當回頭來問說那要怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6603.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6620.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
其實在現有的架構除非你去修改少年事件處理法否則在現有的架構就是這樣子啊你說少年 只要是少年犯罪你就必須要移送少年法庭啊不能說我少年事件不移送少年法庭先讓檢察官徵詢徵詢完了之後再移送少年法庭不行嘛現有體制裡面不行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6621.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6648.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那過去確實但在實務上確實是是造成一些問題造成這個檢察官也好司法警察也好對於這個這個這個整個在在偵辦過程中必須要依照少年事件處理法來先移送少年法庭這件事情認為造成了蠻多實務上面的問題那這些問題剛才我聽到廳長在這個回答陳培育文的時候也講得非常清楚幾個問題你們都事實上這在最近都建立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6649.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6668.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
相關的因應的機制希望能夠解決這個問題我覺得這個就是說你在現有的體制之下你在現有的架構之下你不可能變更現有的架構之下我們要來做調整來解決現在目前我們這個檢察官我們司法警察的實務上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6669.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6679.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
大家的這些困境就是建立一些機制來解決至於這個機制能不能完美的解決讓檢察官覺得說以後我辦案我就不會碰到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6680.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6705.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
或者是能不能這樣完美的解決還不知道 對不對市長你剛剛講的是說你也對這個機制是不是能夠能夠順利的解決這些問題你其實也沒有把握 對不對對 因為這畢竟是法官的核心的審判工作所以我們是持續關注我們也會把我們觀察所得就會提供給司法院這邊來做參考對 我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6708.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6725.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
關鍵就在於說雙方我們法院這邊要理解現在檢察官在偵查犯罪的時候遇到的困難這些困難就是說我們在現在建立的這幾個機制之下我們要能夠理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6726.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6746.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
司法偵查他在目前需要的這些目前遇到的困境他需要解決的部分在實際上我們現在建立新的機制的運作裡面我們要盡快的我們要去檢視然後要定期化的去看還有什麼問題能夠需要進一步的解決這個我認為說這個沒有辦法這個在現有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6749.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6770.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
邵氏法的體制之下就是就是必須要這樣子院檢必須要這樣子的來配合這個沒辦法這個我們在這邊在開實質的專案會議還是一樣因為法治體制就是這樣子但是實際上我們所現在新建立這些機制希望能夠順利運行能夠讓降低現在目前偵查犯罪中間所因為邵氏法相關的規定所遇到的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6771.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6787.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好不好這個部分我覺得但是其實今天要講這個少年司法案件其實偵查跟審判只是最前端的一個部分而已這個當然現在說成少共犯的部分我們這個關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6788.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6815.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
剛剛講的這一大堆都是偵查跟審判那其實還有後面幾個階段後面幾個階段那就更牽涉到那就不只是司法院法務部了你再來有矯正跟教輔矯正跟教輔他就有這個這個牽涉到教輔小組 矯正學校那這個再來還有你在這個矯正跟教輔之後他還有一個轉弦的復歸的一個機制這些都是事實上也都是很重要而且我覺得其實也都滿有一些檢討的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6818.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6843.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那這個剛才偵查的部分我講我們已經討論了那我接下來就就這個矯正跟教輔的實行的這個部分這個部分這個事實上我這邊引述的是你們自己的矯正期刊裡面的文章在第44節第二期裡面的一篇一個這個矯正學校的警衛隊長所寫的一篇文章他認為目前這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6846.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6872.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
少年矯正學校教育小組實施的困難他列舉了七大項包括學生法治觀念不足家庭功能異常 多風險家庭這個我列在簡報上面這部分我們是不是能夠研議我相信他所列舉的這些困難這個都是實際存在的因為他是第一線的這個矯正學校的工作同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6873.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6882.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那這些東西我們是不是能夠嚴厲來調整我們目前包括這個這個教輔小組的人力的配置行政降載的機制那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6883.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6902.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
關於學生法治教育不足的這個問題這部分我覺得我們法務部要負擔其一部分的責任因為畢竟雖然這些角色學校他的課程設計的內容是由教育部來負責你由教育部來負責他就不可能把法治教育這部分做得完善有成效是 這個部分我們都有加強這個部分要加強那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6907.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6926.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這個我在這邊提一下就是說希望說我們這個有關這個矯正跟教輔的這個目前實行的困境我們法務部能夠面對最後一點時間我要特別來談這個可能是這個司法院這邊因為少事法是由我們這個司法院這邊來做主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6928.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6943.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
就是說我要談最後的轉型機制跟復歸的問題我們在矯正端 教育端這些社政端大家都反映其實不管怎麼樣在矯正之後矯正結束之後一出社會它馬上 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6944.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6964.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
就又同樣面對這種高風險的環境了這個一樣要這個因為這一出來一結束就馬上就缺乏這個支持的空窗期這個馬上就會出問題了那這個事實上在我們的我國的這個少年的這個司法制度裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6965.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6988.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
其實所謂需保護性需要保護的需要保護需保護性它一定是一個核心的概念它是一個核心的概念但是在我們現在的少數法我們現在的這個少年司法的這個核心裡面我們的這個需保護性其實我們目前的法令法制體系裡面這個需保護性我們是缺乏可以操作的法律規範跟明確標準其實沒有在我們的法制體系裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6989.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7017.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們是抽象的抽象的以個別的這個個案來談或這個個案少年他的狀況各方的狀況綜合評量他到底是不是具有這個這個需要保護性所以他其實就是因為沒有這個可操作的這個法律規範跟明確的標準所以導致你會常常會變得難以形成一致性那這部分我們要參我個人是參考日本日本他們的少年法治裡面他是把明確的把這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7019.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7041.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個虛保護性他把他整個系統性的評估整個做成一個可操作的一個可以一定具有法律約束性而且他可以預測的一個標準日本法是在把這個虛保護性做非常明確可操作的方式這部分我覺得司法院在 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7042.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7058.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
就我們的這個少年事件的這個處理法裡面我是希望說在這個法治體系裡面能夠把這個需保護性你要能夠有一個這個系統性的評估包括把它一些的變相它實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7059.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7078.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
來作為他的評估的一些準則包括他是不是有這個家庭的知識他的情緒認知的發展落差包括他這個個案跟社區的連結包括他跟這個同儕學校同學的互動等等這些指標都應該要具體在法治化裡面具體的納入法治化裡面讓他變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7080.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7099.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
而且在法治上面不只是要描述他背景而已你就是因為用這些因素來作為他處遇未來的這些處遇的一些關鍵的依據就是按照我剛所講的這些指標這部分我覺得我們應該要納入法治化這部分如果到目前為止我們我國的法治在這個部分其實是抽象的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7100 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7118.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
是沒有具有可操作性的這部分我希望司法院能夠在這個我們這個有關這個少年司法的這些相關的體制裡面能夠把這個虛保護性能夠把它具體化讓它變成具有法律的約束而且讓它具有可預測性好不好好 謝謝審判委員我們接下來請王宏威委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7136.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7145.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好 謝謝主席我請一下我們法務部次長還有我們衛福部次長請徐次長還有李次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7149.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7165.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好 兩位次長好先謝謝我們今天我們的召委排的專案報告非常重要但是我想今天也趁著兩位次長都在的時候有另外一個我自己身為女性非常關心的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7166.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7190.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
因為就在前兩天我們包含我們有一些婦女團體以及醫療公會有做一個要求這個要求就是這一陣子其實頻頻傳出也就是所謂的狼醫這個其實我知道衛福部也非常的重視那麼我們有這種而且是民醫那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7193.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7218.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這一陣子出現了他沒有受懲戒而且繼續的去看診而且在我們很多的醫界也出現了很多的性平違規的事件我在這邊舉出來的1 2 3 4 5 6這些其實有包含他對護理師的強制猥褻而且是判刑確定但是現在仍然在任職 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7219.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7243.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
還有就是對護理師的性騷行為他也判刑確定但是沒有見到公開的資訊還有新北的陳姓醫生他誘導病患發生性行為遭到懲戒而且現在仍然任主管職務還有高雄曾姓醫師也是一樣對於通信軟體的業者病患 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7244.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7272.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個性騷那麼也是一樣經過懲處那他被停業但是呢他也付出了還有桃園的高興醫生也有性侵病患那現在呢進敘的他是被懲戒但是沒有定業他照常職業中還有台中的陳姓醫生他也是這個多次假借看診之名來性騷病患而且確認他有違規行為可是沒有任何的懲戒好 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7273.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7294.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以就說在我們的醫界太多這些的狼醫所以現在呢我剛才講在前兩天我們有一些婦團還有醫療公會要求要求我們能夠去揭露這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7295.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7316.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
這些狼醫如果他已經經懲戒他已經經懲戒有的當然還有要經過法院的判決我剛剛講的一些例子是法院判決判決之後他繼續在執業他繼續在執業在我們的資訊平台是找不到這些相關的資訊的找不到這些相關資訊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7320 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7339.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以我們現在就說剛才講這些副團跟這些民團希望的是能夠比照律師法我們法務部律師法如果被懲戒的話就要公開所以所有的民眾可以透過這些資訊平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7340.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7361.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
能夠找得到比如說我今天我是婦女我要看哪一個婦科的醫生那我可不可以從這些資訊平台去找到他有沒有違反性平或者他有沒有性騷他甚至有沒有性侵的相關懲戒及司法的判決的記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7364.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7384.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以我想請問一下先請我們衛福部能不能就是呂次長可以告訴我們因為我知道你們現在說要建置平台也有在揭露可是揭露的是不夠的揭露不夠所以在這個部分可不可以更能夠保障我們的這個婦女的就醫就醫的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7386.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7401.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
然後最主要的是這些醫生這些已經有違反性平甚至被懲戒被判決確定的案子即便他在職業中但是能夠在這些資訊平台裡面被揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7402.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7424.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
是非常感謝王宏偉委員對於這個問題的關心我想這個不光是整個這個女性我想是整個全台灣對這個部分我覺得是非常重要那其實醫師跟很多專業人員一樣他穿上白袍本身就應該有這個專業倫理那現在問題我想委員還有很多很多民眾都非常關心現在就是說有沒有揭露的機制對揭露揭露資訊要公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7425.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7443.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
的部分我們本部的醫事司其實已經有一個醫事人員涉性平事件的查詢平台那現在問題在於就是說他現在目前有上這個平台是必須有確定就是說違反刑法我們現在目前會上就是一定要司法判決你們現在是一定要司法判決做唯一的標準跟民眾現在目前就是說應該不只這樣現在就是說你只要有行政處分對 你有被懲戒你有被懲戒的紀錄因為你要被懲戒說實在也不容易對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7453.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7477.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
報告委員現在目前是這樣我們現在目前有關懲戒的部分其實現在目前醫師是現在目前在研擬有一個很重要的重點在於就是說整個各個縣市他們那邊都有那個所謂醫師的那個專業自律就是醫師公會啦這個部分我們現在目前醫師是正在跟醫師公會那邊在緊密就是說就整個這一個尺度上面來說我們是不是應該在哪個程度應該也要來來羅利這個部分我們會趕快來進行相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7480.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7501.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那我想請問 你們本來說明年1月份你們會再做更新然後全面更新懲戒案件那你們明年1月份的更新還是以司法判決為依據嗎我們到目前為止是這樣就誠如剛剛我回覆委員所說就是說我們也知道民眾可能對這個還不滿意而且還覺得不夠放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7503.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7518.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以我们现在目前就那个尺度上面来说因为有的司法判决其实那个路很长那这在这个中间有的你看我刚刚讲的例子是他是多次他不是一次而已是没错所以可不可以以就是能够比照律师法 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7519.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7540.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我待會提出來我會修法應該要提跟比照律師法如果律師有這樣的嚴格的限制那請問一下我去就醫我難道不應該有同樣的權益嗎其實報告委員我們現在目前確實有一個有一個方式我們也會嚴禮那個就類似律師法類似就你只要有這一個律師他們的工會那邊的一個相關的懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7542.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7561.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以你的意思是說律師被懲戒是被律師公會懲戒是公會 對不對這樣揭露嘛所以你的意思就是說你們也可以跟各地方縣市政府的醫師公會如果你被醫師公會懲戒我們常常都還說一一相護了對不對如果一一都護不了你這代表你確實這個行為也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7564.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7590.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
代表這個也沒有辦法一一相互所以 視望如果是醫師公會懲戒也應該放到你們這個資訊揭露平台嗎鮑偉我們現在目前正在嚴嶺正在朝這個就是說在朝這個方向我們現在正在嚴嶺所以是朝這個方向好 那另外你們有一個就是說醫生不同意還不用掛網是這樣嗎若醫師不同意你們就不能夠去揭露他 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7592.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7592.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
包圍應該 不會這樣吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7598.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7612.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以那你覺得這種如果有這樣因為這個我所得到的資料是你們不但是以依司法判決做唯一揭露的這個標準而且一是如果不同意你們還可以不用畫網這個是不是我想應該不會這樣不過是不是容我們回去我們跟144那邊確認之後那個會後好那我在這邊我在這邊做具體的要求第一個就是剛才你所講的方向第一個不能以司法判決做唯一的這個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7628.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7646.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
他應該經過懲戒之後就應該資訊揭露 可以不可以我們會朝這個方向 好不好第二個不能因為醫師不同意你們就不掛網揭露可以不可以因為如果說醫師不同意你就不給他掛網我覺得也不合理 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7648.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7667.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
包委員 這個我們會朝這方向不過這個因為牽涉到整個揭露的比例原則我想這個應該不可能就是說醫師你犯了這個錯可是現在問題有一個現在就是說他到底查到什麼程度才能來揭露就是牽涉到比例原則的部分這個部分是不是可以容許因為老實說醫師我在這邊直接也具體的講因為我準備提案就修改我們的這個醫師法 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7674.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7692.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這一施法就是比照律師法這也是我們的這些民團在談到就說應該就說像醫改會的這個就提出來因為台灣的律師的揭露就比較有制度就有制度應該去比照律師法 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7693.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7705.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
比照律師法去做一個比較透明的揭露所以我在這邊也會提出修正我希望我這個修正也能夠得到包含衛福部還有我們法務部的支持好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7710.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7731.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
就是剛才你講的朝那個方向好不好好謝謝我們先謝謝呂部長時間暫停你可以請回最後一點點時間我請教一下我們的徐次長就是我們現在普發現金一萬塊其實很多民眾都拿到了不管他是用登記的或者在用ATM的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7732.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7739.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那麼都拿到了但是也確實出現了很多的詐騙而且其實對於一些被詐騙的民眾來講我覺得實在是很淒慘他不過就要領一萬塊然後他就被騙一百萬這實在是不符合比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7749.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7777.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以在這個普發現金的這個詐騙的部分你們還有沒有什麼樣的精進的方式不要因為我們這個本來是德政我們就是希望來幫助人民就沒想到反而他因此而被詐騙損失慘重所以在這個普發現金詐騙的部分你們現在還有沒有什麼精進的比如說要跟包含跟這個警政署或者是跟這個訴發部等等還有沒有些什麼要精進的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7778.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7798.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
好 謝謝委員那台高檢在14年9月17號就已經邀集邀集的地檢還有刑事警察局還有調查局我們有召開一個防治及查緝詐欺集團普發現金詐騙研商會議那台高檢跟調查局都也通令所有的檢查調查機關加強查緝我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7798.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7815.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
在查緝面的話我們是不管是司法警察或者是地檢署的檢察官是全員都動起來只要有線索我們會馬上盡速的來查辦那我們在官網裡面也有做專區來有一個QA就回答民眾的一個查詢那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7816.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7822.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
委員也都知道這個詐騙集團就是這樣它一直變形我們不斷的宣導你剛講9月17號這個是還沒發因為我們是11月7號才開始所以也就是說即便我們早兩個月大家開會做成會議記錄但是到了民眾他還是會被騙還是會被這些假的檢警假的這些釣魚訊息在詐騙他 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7843.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7856.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以我們在這一部分可能就是說他尤其地方像我自己當議員的時候我都盡量會去參加我們的這些李玲的工作彙報警察一定比如說警察一定會比如說我這陣子有什麼方案比如說你到了這個快要過年一定有那個春安嘛然後你這個普發現金我一定早早就告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7866.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7882.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這普發現金只有這兩種途徑你千萬不要再多拿錢出來一定是就是警察是很辛苦我知道警察每次在那邊宣導我也陪他們拍照片拿宣傳單等等之類的但是我覺得我們還是不希望說變成我們一個普發現金變成詐騙這些集團有上下其手的可能性好不好我們也希望是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7890.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7896.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好不好這部分我們打詐是永遠永遠是不能夠攜帶的好不好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝王宏國委員接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在請吳世堯委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7918.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7936.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
謝謝主席有關今天排定的主題我在上週的會議我大概都提出相關的質詢那我今天有另外一個緊急事態想要質詢所以除了請我們的中廳長那我也請司法院的吳廳長中廳長還有司法行政的吳廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7939.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7957.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為是緊急事態所以很緊急委員好我要透過今天的質詢當然主席也在我們一起要來針對在野黨又發動了一個違憲惡修是惡中之惡就是這一次是鎖定司法院組織法要修 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7958.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7976.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這就是轄院報復再加一就是霸凌司法院再加一這真的是政治的黑手公然深入司法行政的緊急事態所以這叫做立院作亂 司院有事我們要好好來防範 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7977.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8005.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所謂的轄院報復就是立法院的惡性循環不合倡議就要把你的司法院的預算凍結或大刪這不是吳斯堯說的是黃國昌立委在今年的10月22號他就公然說他為了法院組織法修訂之後司法院不怕幫負責任的提出一個法庭直播的實施辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8006.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8033.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
黃國昌不滿不合倡議他又揚言要大幅的刪減刪減或凍結司法院的預算惡性循環又來了而不合倡議呢這個黃國昌委員又開始放話就要修到他滿意我們眼前碰到的除了我們的法庭直播辦法可能被退回改由立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8034.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8048.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
加注意見或是直接要審下一步呢就是除了法院組織法之外現在把手伸到司法院組織法換言之以後司法院院會大小事情立法院都要管都能管 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8049.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8068.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這已經違反了立法院職權法 職權刑事法62條的規定如果各院紀之間有違反抵觸法律的行政命令等等立法院能夠做的是要求更正或廢止但立法院沒有越組太刨來實質審查的權利這是憲法的紅線 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8073.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8093.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
所以緊急事態來了 除了預算又被為難現在甚至就是立法院來取代司法院的院會下頁這個立法院亂了套 該審的不審不該審的拼命要把政治力來擴大作亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8095.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8113.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這個事情的緣由就是法院組織法 廳長在這裡喔你們也循程序花了三個月的時間也循公告施行然後也送到立法院就是黃國昌近乎二讀立法院零討論直接表決的法院組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8114.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8138.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
立法院應當在委員會好好審查有任何意見修入法裡面而不是立法院不討論直接坐直升機坐特快車還逼你們三個月上路然後你們之後依法律的授權來訂定實施辦法他現在反而要來審查實施辦法了我說這就是該審的不審不該審的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8141.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8153.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
不只要審而且還要鉅細靡遺的為難你們廷長你有看過這種狀況嗎司法行政被凌駕成這樣就這個部分你們有什麼防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8157.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8182.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
報告委員是就是說因為修正法律是立法院的職權所以在法院組織法有關公開播送的這個條文修正通過那當然司法院必須要遵照這個法律來做後續的這個執行的程序所以有關執行的程序的部分因為我們有預見到其實很多的法律專家都提出說一旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8183.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8204.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
法庭公開播送之後會有一些影響到審判公正的疑慮還有人權的疑慮包括訴訟參與者的隱私權的一些相關的疑慮所以我們也在法律院組織法的一個授權的範圍內要去訂立一個適當的公播方式可以來避免這樣子一個疑慮讓這個公播能夠順利的上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8208.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8236.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那达到他原本希望达到的目的让公播达到透明公开的效用而不是造成舆论公省的负面效益你们在做的就是这个播放嘛是的所以我们会在才会定义这个实施办法那这个办法里头有关公播的时程也是认为说因为公播刚上路加上国外有一些国家我们都参照国际的经验避免特写对不对然后国民法官不准拍对不对好关键在下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8237.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8258.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
下一頁喔在下一頁有關法庭直播的Live或是Delay Live哪裡有抵犯法律呢在朝野協商的時候黃國昌兩度一次在黨團協商一次在朝野協商他都說公開播送可以用Live也有Delay Live啊他自己說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8259.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8280.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
羅志強委員代表國民黨團在協商的時候他也說啊延遲直播delay life也是你們司法院可以參酌採納的手法嘛所以為了保障司法人權避免這些訴訟當事人的隱私被侵犯被肉搜更避免這個案子在審查的過程被輿論公審 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8283.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8309.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
來影響法官的心證你們是撥破網送出實施辦法而完全沒有抵觸法律啊法律立法者的緣由在歷次雖然委員會都沒有討論啊在少少的朝野協商表達意見的時候藍白的委員就已經同意delay life嘛所以現在轄院報復牽怒於你們不過是他們自己自己打臉自己然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8311.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8331.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
拉不下臉下不了台所以說呢夏業這是我們上週討論的主題也就是說法院組織法草率的禁服惡毒通過立法院該審而不審那現在要把手伸到這個實施辦法要退回要求更正那他下一步要做的事情是什麼呢夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8333.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8353.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
非常嚴重緊急事態我也跟朝委報告現在民眾黨提出來的司法院組織法17條修正還有增訂17條之一就是公然把立法院的審查權政治的黑手伸到司法院的院會裡面去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8355.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8374.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
17条是把组织的部分完全用政治力来把持17条之一的增订是把所有你们司法院院会会议规则审定的行政命令强制要求送到立法院可以进行变更也就是立法院要来审司法院的内规简单讲 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8375.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8396.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
太可怕了立法院可以大到這樣嗎今天把手伸到司法院的院會明天就把手伸到行政院的院會今天把手要求司法院院會的組成要達到國民黨對不起這是民眾黨要的雖然國民黨民眾黨是一個黨了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8398.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8416.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
達到這種藍白要的透過組織惡意的修法還要讓這些獨立審判的法官被迫要承擔政治責任因為把首長制改成合一制然後把這些法官變成這個司法院院會的當然成員這太可怕了 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8420.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8445.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
今天他立法院這樣對於司法院要求司法院院會的組成明天就要求行政院院會的組成今天要求司法院院會通過的所有的法律你們的執法相關的規範一定要強制送立法院來審查明天就要求行政院院會卓院長通過的任何議案都要先送立法院否則你行政院院會不能開或是開不成 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8446.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8462.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這太可怕了所以針對司法院組織法第17條以立法權侵害行政權又是違憲了侵犯權力分立的原則跟制衡而且把首長制改成合一制就侵犯了司法院院長的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8463.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8480.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
以及他要求增加法官代表成为司法院院会的当然成员让受监督者享有司法的行政权法官某种程度也被迫要承担政治决策的责任针对这17条来听一下你觉得呢是不是紧急事态啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8482.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8508.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
謝謝委員因為司法院確實因為院長是總統提名立法院同意的所以他是一個首長制他必須要對司法院的政治來負責政策的成敗負責對要負政策政治責任是院長我們看到這次的提案確實是有就等同是把司法院的院會變成一個合議機關那由合議的方式來做成司法院的一些重要的政策那本來司法院院會只是一個諮詢機關而已那變成合議機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8511.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8537.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
以後他新天來指名要法官代表成為院會成員哪一天他可能又加碼變成說這些法官代表成為司法院院會列席人員成員必須受立法院同意搞不好也會這樣對不對因為我們現在法官的職責憲法上的權利做審判那並不是對國家的政策責任負責而且法官是終身子也不能夠因為政治的懲罰而下台 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8537.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8552.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
沒有錯所以說司法院組織法17條它要破壞司法院院會的組成又危險政治的黑手不演了深入司法行政而下一個要跟您探討的是17條之一的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8554.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8578.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這就是法庭直播黃國昌自己在委員會快轉然後草率通過之後現在又把該審的法案不審現在要審你們的實施辦法那他現在實隨之謂 轄院報復再加一以後所有的司法院所有的命令 規章你們的權利立法院都要越組帶跑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8580.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8603.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
然後就立法院職權行使法62條的規範如果任何單位的執法有抵觸母法才可以退回才可以要求你們更正但不是立法院自己來改所以說該審的不審法案不審委員會不開會不討論然後現在要連你們的行政命令都要管來就這個17條之一的增修以後你們真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8611.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8615.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我真的不知道這個緊急事態怎麼解決喊話一下吧 廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8617.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8642.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
其实司法院会通过很多细节性的一般性的一些不管是职权命令或者是经由国会授权的授权命令那这些命令都是比较一般性而且有时候是有需有时效性的那如果说这些授权命令全部要送立法院进行更正目前是要由立法院备查备查改审查而且退回便直接改 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8643.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8670.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那如果立法院进行把内容变更的话那就会变成说是由立法院替司法院定立法规命令但是由这个司法院来做执行那这可能会造成权责这有没有违宪那我们认为这是违反这当然违反宪法的权利分立而且立法院该审的不审自己法案委员会不审直接表决然后来管这些执法法律授权的执法实施办法的规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8671.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8686.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這真的是全套鬼揍海料料而且全部本末倒置啊所以你們現在針對這個惡法因為剛排入這個議程你們要全力的去遊說除了要遊說我們各黨的委員我還是相信啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8687.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8715.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
在野的委員應該還是有部分有良知的吧難道大家都要被黃國昌這樣子來出賣這樣子來操弄作為黃國昌轄院報復司法的棋子嗎你們要強力來遊說所有不分黨派的立委因為捍衛憲法不是只有執政黨的事是所有跨黨派委員的事以及你們也要向法界發聲向社會發聲司法院不能再被霸凌了 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8716.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8739.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
司法院不能再這樣以後司法院院會立法院來管如果司法院低頭了未來十帥之位行政院院會就是下一個考試院院會就是下一個立法院再大也不能比憲法大真的而且我要批判立法院該審的不審不該審的要拿來審 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8741.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8757.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
為什麼要禁賦二讀我也很擔心司法院組織法就像當初法庭直播的法院組織法一樣禁賦二讀委員會沒有辦法討論我們這麼專業的教委莊瑞雄法律專家他沒有辦法來發表他的意見因為從法案提出到最後做特快車只有表決意圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8759.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8782.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
執政黨少數黨連發聲論述的機會都沒有所以趕快向社會發聲尋求法界所有人員的力量來遊說這些讓立法院能夠三思後行來 您補充謝謝委員事實上包括這次提案的理由裡頭有提到美國的這個US Code它完全複解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8784.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8808.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
对对因为我们有去检索美国的制度而且美国国会也没有权利去直接修改最高法院所定义规则的内容对它充其量也只能将它退回而不能够进行修改所以这部分的可能是误解了这个国外的规定所以我们司法法制委会很天才有留学德国的汪小林委员但是却把德国的制度乱讲一通有留学德国的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8810.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8817.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
黃國昌主席 對不起有留學美國的黃國昌主席卻對美國的憲政運作國會運作這麼的狀況外 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8823.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8844.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
然後還拿 我也看了他的修法理由把美國國會只有否決權 而且那是延遲宣告的權利不是可以直接拿來立法院 來審司法院的內規真的是 這策略不像是卡丁片一樣啊留學美國 留到哪裡去了 美國的制度都不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8845.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8862.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以我再一次今天我緊急事態來做這個質詢我也相信我們召委會全力來協助我們一起來捍衛立法院不要再霸凌其他的憲政機關了立法院再大也不能讓黃國昌這樣惡搞不好意思超過時間謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8864.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8891.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好 謝謝吳士耀委員的詢答那個確實是很嚴肅的問題法規命令各個院院紀之間尤其是每一個院該做出怎麼樣的法規命令當然它有一個主體性那做出來以後送立法院被查立法院當然可以改審查案但是審查到最後的結果其實是要求變更或者說去廢止但是從立法院進行去做一個變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8893.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8907.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這個就非常嚴肅的事情了那變成說有點越竹帶袍畢竟法規命令不是立法院在用而是這個發布的一個主體在用那卻應該是好好來做一個盛事接下來我們請賴世保委員賴世保委員不在賴世保委員林月琴委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8929.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8935.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
主席 麻煩我們的警政署的副局長蕭副局長委員好副局長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8944.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8973.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那今天討論那個承受共犯的偵辦的困境這個問題在前次的邵氏法移送前的程序修正時就已經討論過非常多次那近來大家詐騙犯罪越來越高的時候再度讓相關程序實務運作受到關注我知道你們已經開過很多次會議了那也建立了連續窗口跟協調機制這是很大的突破值得肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8974.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9002.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
不過副局長我一直很關心耳騷所以今天還是來問就是說近年耳騷犯罪的主要類型跟趨勢你這邊是不是有掌握跟委員報告那我們所查詢的資料就是加入幫派最多就是到了各個公開場所來做注視那第二個就是詐欺那為什麼詐欺會增加跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9004.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9020.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
當詐欺車手不需要技術所以一個車手頭他底下有五個車手一個被抓了再找一個高中生來替補所以這個是你看我們的少子化我們的少年已經增加了很多但是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9022.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9044.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
共犯 承受共犯這一部分對 的確像陳儒副局長講的就是我們的兒少犯罪的那個現象從行政警察局提供的的確兒少犯罪以詐欺案件為最大宗這也逐漸改變原本臨時起義的那個犯罪樣態轉向組織化跟預謀行動的一個趨勢針對這樣的犯罪趨勢的變化就有學者指出說 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9052.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9076.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
打詐必須從根源來著手而且少年的車手或成員不應該事實上是重點關鍵在於打擊犯罪集團跟組織或者是黑幫更建議說應該要參考日本的暴力團的對策法修正我們的組織犯罪條例加重原本的刑責那副市長你同意這樣的看法或建議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9078.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9107.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們也是一直朝這個方向像我們現在的組織犯罪我們有了這個工具所以我們才有辦法去執法我就簡單舉個例像現在竹聯幫幫主一直從缺我們有這樣的工具現在誰承認他是竹聯幫幫主我們馬上報請指揮來做逮捕謝謝布局長我認為這真的才是真正的根本之道才不會錯置資源在所謂的少年免洗快的一個工具身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9107.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9136.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
而忽略背後的一個犯罪組織為什麼這樣提呢其實預防二哨犯罪方案當中在你們在今年的年初的話政院也是拍板定案說四年預計投入76億的在預防二哨犯罪方案裡邊我相信警政署作為方案的幕僚機關那我認為副局長應該非常清楚知道整個方案的具體的措施跟行動策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9136.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9151.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
可是在一二級的預防目標下就有規劃行動方案是針對於幫派組織吸收少年的具體措施但我非常好奇的是既然有這樣的工具那到底足不足夠是否可以請我們的副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9152.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9180.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
跟警政署這邊提供我目前這些具體的實際成效因為我現在目前沒有看到就你們部縣的調查成效是什麼明策略管的情形是怎麼樣組織犯罪的一個防制的條例定罪的狀況是什麼還有追蹤輔導成效再麻煩把這些相關數據提供給我為什麼要這樣子提呢就是想來請教副局長就是什麼是需保護性如何調查跟評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9182.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9207.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那區域保護站在對兒少的保護這一部分這是就是司法的一個宗旨那站在警察是在執法那尤其在打詐這一部分警察的主責是在試詐所以最近你可以從電視來看到警察非常多的一個宣導那也有一定的成效那對兒少的保護這一部分我們是這時候也是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9209.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9229.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
教育部跟各級的學校共同來努力我這樣問我不是在考試或說教只是針對少年輔導的處遇的問題恐怕都來自我們的少事法的第三條第二項的條文大家是不是對這條文的理解跟判斷落差而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9230.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9243.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
為什麼這樣提因為上週五出爐的監察院的報告明確指出正因為警方跟少府會過度拘泥於曝險行為的一個定義的法條文字因為這邊有寫一個無證當理由經常 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9247.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9259.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
因為這個經常這個兩次的事少府會認為這是單一事件他沒有調閱其他的資料的時候就會覺得沒有經常所以就不認為是需要保護性因為他的第二項很明確的講是說你看到這一項裡邊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9262.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9284.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
第二款的提出來的這些相關的那要依少年的性格跟成長經驗那你就要去各方去調閱相關比如需要各個單位來提供這樣的資料所以就很容易忽略那因為這樣子忽略它的高風險的徵兆就會錯失我覺得及早介入輔導的一個機會那我就來續問為什麼這樣談因為這個這張圖我已經拿來問 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9292.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9310.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
第三次了每次警政署的說法都不同第一次拿出來的時候我順便問了少府會的人力是否充足那署長說不夠可是當天的專案報告的書面報告是寫充足的第二次拿出來的時候強調缺乏公案合作的機率 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9311.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9326.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我當時也以持有微量三四級毒品的行為當成案例希望檢證署能夠能夠延商跟相關機關能夠延商修正可是這次就沒有收到任何的回覆的資料給我了 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9327.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9346.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那這次剛好我們的監察院調查報告又出來指出警方缺乏對曝險行為的統一收案標準也欠缺需保護性的評估標準我認為這就是關鍵除了會直接影響社安網的服務轉弦的系統外同樣也是今天陳紹公案偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9348.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9361.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
困境的核心所在所以在這邊我要提出三點請我覺得警政署這邊要來處理的是那警政署提供預防少年兒少犯罪方案的具體措施的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9362.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9387.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
並與法務部共同來針對幫派吸收少年犯罪的防治機制來研擬更積極的策略這次不要今天講了然後我們後來沒有收到這相關的資料第二警警政署競速建立少婦會我們希望要有個標準化的風險評估工具才可以跟其他的相關單位去收整你要的東西否則就很容易不被認為經常 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9388.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9418.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以单一事件而错失了及早介入的所以同一个案的服务流程跟资料共享机制这个希望你们要建立来加强教育训练跟我们的服务敏感度来充实我们的辅导量能跟专业性最后就是请警政署能够重新的检讨少舞会的组织的工作内容以及其他网络单位共案的合作方式那我不知道副局长这个在两周内可以提出书面回复吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9419.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9437.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
可以好 謝謝好 謝謝林月琴委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭政權委員鄭政權委員鄭政權委員不在請施堯委員來代理一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9442.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9451.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
非常榮幸今生可以來代理莊瑞雄主持司法法治委員會好 下一位有請我們的召委莊委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請我們司法院總廳長還有法務部徐政次教育部我們這個今天是副署長委員好衛福部女政次委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9470.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9473.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
行政警察局蕭副局長 請上來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9476.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9500.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我想各位今天我們今天討論安排這樣的一個專報那其實在整個立法院還沒有整個總預算這個是預算會期還沒有付的情況之下那減少了一些政治的一個紛擾大家來做理性的一個討論那我想針對上個禮拜因為大家看到檢察院也針對針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9503.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9520.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個整個新北這樣的一個少年做出了一份調查報告就是提到就是說整個司法警政 社政跟教育體系到底是哪一個環節這個漏接了 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9524.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9545.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那司法跟各縣市政府稍後會應該扮演怎麼樣的一個角色,然後現行體制在橫向的一個聯繫跟修法後配套是不是有不足,這個權責機關是否能夠有效的改善這個既存的困境跟預防悲劇的一個發生。 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9546.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9564.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這個案件本席去看了整個監察院的報告以後特別有感那我們今天在排這個整個少年事件處理法的一個專題的一個討論我相信這個整個監察院這樣的一個新北池巴少年案件把報告出來以後 揭開了很多現行體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9566.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9593.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
下的一個盲區那第一個就是警察端就是說明知道少年已經有這樣的一個曝險行為那你卻沒有按照少事法去啟動保護的一個評估那第二個就是說你整個少府會被這樣的監察官批評說你失靈了那你主責這個多協力的一個設計那實務上就變成說是互踢皮球那今天這麼多單位在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9594.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9613.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我就必須要來講說這個責任到底這個責任到最後如果不是丟給學校就丟給警察那主責單位到最後變成好像一個總機的一個角色另外法院跟行政整合之間的一個失效你按照整個少司法第42條的一個規定要採取保護處分之前可以跟個案的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9619.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9636.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個整個單位的一個諮詢的也召開協調會但是現行這整個法官跟少年調查保護官並不理解整個社安這個網路的一個分工那沒有辦法去履行了該法的一個意旨校園之間跟外部脫節 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9637.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9654.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
你这个整个导师跟辅导端阿玛米达资源在什么地方那被害人的一个权益的部分你说按照整个四字八百零五号肯认少年事件应该给予被害人道庭陈述的一个机会并且在少事法三十六条之一有关的规定但是你整个 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9656.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9681.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
實際上事務上司法院也沒有去發展相關人員對被害人意見調查跟教育的一個訓練還有被害人轉介服務跟合作的一個機制所以我是要來請教就是說我們司法院 法務部 警政署甚至有衛福部 教育部就監察院提出這樣的一個疑慮你們是不是有什麼樣的一個改善計畫我覺得這是很重要 我先請衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9687.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9712.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
你們這時候 教育局主管你們最多了那你怎麼樣呢我們應該把話講清楚你組織機關你們是不是要重新去檢討你譬如說你到底是要回到社政體系來衛護部統籌或是你教育系統裡面來結緣校園的一個輔導或是說你行政院我一直在聽我接觸就是說不然你也行行政院層級少年輔導辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9714.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9724.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
涉及到整個成少共犯情資的一個整合來的喔你搞不好都變一個轉介中心了我不知道你衛福部你真正的一個想法到底是怎麼樣先請衛福部來做回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9725.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9734.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
全責的補分啦 全責的補分啦感謝委員 我那個三個重點啦第一 其實我們現在有這個社安網社安網其實最重要的就是要我們有四大策略 其中我們這個最重要的就是說 委員你剛才所說的有那個法醫 還有那個警政 警政署那邊還有我們法務部這邊的協調啦這第一重點 第二就是說我們現在目前的整個處理原則是要一組折多協力啦 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9753.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9760.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
你如果要在什麼該當該當什麼單位 你要出來 你要主責但是其他的單位 他來做配合但是我相信 剛才委員你所說的他們現在 我們的整個主責還有其他相關單位 那個整個協調機制我們確實還有一些應該要來進行的地方 最重要的當然啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9773.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9799.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那衛務部其實你們也認為說主責機構還有涉及到整個橫向的一個聯繫的一個問題是啦 所以這個部分我們都要好好的去做一個檢討啦那另外我想請教那個徐次長就是說承哨共犯的偵查落差跟這二十四點鐘壓力這個問題其實存在的一個治安的一個問題跟涉及到整個重大偵查的一個幾個挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9800.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9812.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
第一個就是你偵查主體的分工不一致你現在成年犯你現在檢察官指揮來偵查那你為成年犯 少年法官來主導他也沒有授權指揮警察調查那你厭檢對於少年傳喚的態度你涉及到整個24小時分配的難題你譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9820.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9836.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
你當警察機關你查獲了陳少共犯的案件的時候你在記者寫章裡面你就要送往少年法庭同時又要顧及到陳年犯的偵查的一個程序你們像這個問題你們到底現在要怎麼樣去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9837.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9857.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
報告委員這24小時不是檢察官使用的時間這個是司法警察跟法庭24小時的護送那當然那剛才中庭長這邊也解釋得非常清楚我們現在只能靠聯繫的機制我們檢察官可能有一些訊問的要點必須要追查的內容我們可以提供給少年法庭的法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9858.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9874.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
希望他們這個部分能夠幫我們來問如果我們取得有力的資料的話我們當然會跟司法警察會馬上同步就發動一些偵查的作為我想我們現在目前的法治底下我們能做的大概就是這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9875.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9900.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這涉及到整個 當然涉及到整個少年那個保護啦但是問題就是這種成少的一個共犯裡面我看台中地院現在有發展的一個模式了嘛我看各地方我們有聯繫的平台也有一個機制在裡面運作說年輕的先叫來問問問之後取得共犯的一個結果立即去輸送少年法庭然後法官快速的去責負然後檢察官繼續去偵辦這樣的一個成年的一個共犯那我在想 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9905.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9920.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這個整個議題會受到整個社會的一個矚目那其實最主要的就是說年輕人到底是要被懲罰那還是在整個邵氏法裡面還要涉及到我們必須要去保護他我們也必須要提出一個很嚴肅的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9921.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9927.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我們現在看到很多犯罪裡面你去看很多律師實際上聽起來講到律師這個我就覺得可悲了你在鞏固少年口供的時候甚至去施壓是不是我們也有可能少年在選任輔導人的時候也要經過法定代理人的一個同意所以我要求我們司法院跟法務部也要去提出如何在不侵害少年的權益之下你重新去調整整個偵查的程序跟分工要不然你去看五行 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9950.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9978.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
涉及到衛福部 教育 警察 偵查體系整個司法 輔導如果真正沒有辦法去串起來的話那其實對於整個我們現在碰到的問題還是無解那我想今天排這樣的一個專報裡面最主要是我們在隨著社會在看待少年的時候其實這個態度都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9979.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10005.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
有時候你看立法院裡面一天裡面看到那麼多人在巡打的時候關注的面向都不一樣關注的面向都不一樣有時候你就變成說少年被當成需要少年犯罪當然需要去懲罰懲罰以後又好像變成安撫一個成年不安的政策的一個工具可是在另外一頭裡面他又被視為需要社會共同去保護重新引導的一個主體 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10007.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10020.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以怎麼樣去從預防輔導偵查教育跟司法真正把它做一個對接不然少年司法永遠是事後再捕破網這個都沒有辦法去追上下一個悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10022.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10044.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
請今天各位安排這樣我們希望這樣的一個制度該做去橫向的一個聯繫整個邵司法修正完以後如何去把這個制度更健全呢我覺得我們司法院還有我們法務部還有衛福部教育體系 警政這個地方再努力一下好不好是好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10050.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10068.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那下一位有請葉元芝委員執行主席好 麻煩請教育部衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10074.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10101.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
請衛福部次長還有教育部兩個單位兩個就好我想說這個有關於在學校園裡面對於這個有可能這種普選少年他們的人權跟教育以及其他可能會被普選少年所影響到的老師或同學這個中間彼此的權利這麼拿捏啦這一直是一個我覺得嚴肅而且難解的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10103.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10119.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那當然我覺得目前少年或者是已經有犯法這些少年的人權重要可是在教育的現場我們應該看的是說那其他想要好好在學校受教育的這些同學不想被干擾的同學他們的受教權呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10119.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10139.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
還有老師會不會因為有一些少年在學校裡面的影響導致班級的經營或者是在教學上面會受到很大的干擾呢這個教育部跟衛福部應該要去也要針對這個問題去做解決我看到教育部洋洋灑灑的講了很多方案衛福部也是譬如說教育部講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10141.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10161.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
你們會針對偏差的行為做輔導例如說會提供一些中途的教育資源比如說慈輝班比如說資源室中途班這裡面報告寫的我再請教慈輝班主要的提供是不是那一些可能比較弱勢家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10162.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10174.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
或者是中措之餘支援是中途班是不是也是中措幫助他回到學校之前先適應一下 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10175.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10198.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
過度性教育措施嗎對這個部分的話可能會有比較涉及到他可能會有偏差行為那會對其他的師生回到學校之後會有比較是安全之餘的會是在過度性的教育措施裡所以他是比如說你怎麼去認定他有可能會去傷害別人是他曾經犯過法 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10199.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10209.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
曾經犯過法或者是什麼情況之下去認定所以先讓他去這個中途班然後適應一段時間之後再回到學校那是怎麼認定這些人這些同學 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10211.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10233.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
如果是到那個過渡性教育措施的話他會有一個個案的評估會議那也有一部分有可能是會需要跟調法官或者是少年保護官那邊在做一些所以這已經進入到司法的部分了嗎42 上司法第42條所以是已經進入到司法部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10234.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10261.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以因此我們對於那些就是想要好好讀書的小朋友的保護想好好讀書不想要受到目前少年干擾的保護現在必須要目前少年他可能已經進入到司法的程序也就是說他已經進入到犯罪的行為了才有可能會進入到這個中途的教育機制對不對否則就是說他可能是因為某種原因家庭因素或什麼個人因素中錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10263.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10292.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
但中錯不代表他會影響別人他可能只是說他跟不上現在教育所以去中途班教育先學一下 銜接再回到學校園所以其實這個裡面衍生出一個問題就如果有一些青少年或學生他可能有加入幫派他可能在學校一直比如說霸凌或者是在上課搗蛋被記了非常多大過你現在沒有辦法強制他去中途班 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10294.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10320.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個裡面還有一個輔導機制是少年輔導委員會我們也會跟警政那邊聯繫然後警政有用嗎我會這樣子講就是因為現在校園充斥太多類似這樣我剛講的狀況而且現在的機制是無法解決的你說你有跟那個警政署有聯繫你看你們後面還講說怎麼防止他們參與犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10320.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10329.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
比如說如果他疑似參加不良組織都會依通報輔導有用嗎通報給警政署警察單位是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10330.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10356.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
其實後續也會有一些輔導輔導有用嗎比如說我們提供高關懷的課程然後讓他效果都很有限啊然後你們提到說會加強那個校園安全的宣導譬如說校安通報防患於未然但問題是有校安人力嗎我在我了解的狀況是有些學校只要譬如說一個學生去霸凌霸凌另外一個同學那個校假設他有一個校園人力因為我確定在 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10357.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10376.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
一直在爭取國中的校園人力嘛一個 一個而已喔那個校園人力面對到一個霸凌其他的同學的那個霸凌者他就要花很多的時間在那個霸凌者身上所以如果再增加其他的曝險少年的話這個人力是非常不足的啦然後再來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10377.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10403.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那個衛福部的報告裡面也有寫到說112到113年服務了大概1005位具有偏差行為的一個青少年然後說要幫助他們提升家庭功能有提升的嗎包委我們這個部分我們有一個寧靜少年的一個輔導方案這個主要是衛福部他補助各地方政府補助嘛各地方政府 對但是你因為你有補助所以算你的業務嘛要提升的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10404.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10427.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
包圍他們這部分他們會結合那個地方的NGO跟NPO我問你效果嘛你不要一直告訴我做法我問你效果嘛 提升了嗎包圍那個所以衛福部只是把錢花下去不會管它的效果我們當然有做一些相關的一些所以提升大家的家庭功能了嗎因為現在有很多在學校會影響別人讀書的那些青少年很多都是家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10428.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10450.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
爸媽不管所以現在在學校裡面很多老師覺得說這些家庭是不是可以把爸媽把這小孩領回去當然大家會站在這個小朋友的教育的角度會覺得這樣子可能不OK因為他還是有受教育的權利但是代表說你們衛福部補助所謂提升家庭功能這個做法達不到效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10452.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10475.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
包圍那個的地方他們的回饋基本上認為就是說效果很有限如果今天效果這麼你可以去了解一下如果說這個效果這麼有的話為什麼每個學校常常都會發現同學被霸凌或老師被欺負現在老師都不敢管學生老師很多都消磨熱忱的你們會不會去了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10475.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10498.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以今天雖然我們是排的是比較偏司法面但是我覺得教育部衛福部更應該重視的是那一些少年他沒有到犯法的時候還沒有到犯法的時候但他其實已經這個邊緣了而且他在學校就是會影響別人那這個部分的輔導機制處理機制在哪裡這也是一個很嚴重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10500.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10518.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以是不是 針對這個部分包委我們就跟教育部這邊我想重點像您所說的應該主要是他的家庭失能的問題這個部分我們會朝這個方向來努力我剛講這個算是一個問題缺口目前你們的機制我看不到有解決的方案出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10520.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10531.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
請針對這個部分去做一個研究啦好的 好 謝謝好 感謝院知委員接下來請我們最專業的林倩琦委員來做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10539.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10561.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
謝謝我們的主席莊昭偉我們先請教育部次長跟警政署今天的代表我們副局長蕭副局長教育部的次長沒來今天是副署長這樣就可能副署長學前教育署的副署長還有我們行政檢察局蕭副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10564.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10576.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好 謝謝本席今天先針對這個線上遊戲導致的這個陳紹共犯然後來就教育部跟警政署我們怎麼樣來補這個破網那也就是說現在有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10581.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10592.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
很嚴重的問題這個問題是這個數字上升很急劇但是大人世界都還沒有完全搞懂的一個新的事件跟戰場在產生那麼警政署的統計18歲以下的兒少遭詐欺從105年的這個863人到113年2346人這8年間翻轉了大概三倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10605.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10629.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
裡面有超過99%比例的人是12歲到18歲的少年今年到8月份的一個累計人數已經超過了1200人超過過去一年的量被害的形態以網路拍賣還有一夜市的購物跟遊戲點數被詐騙的最多有接觸的第一線的督導就談到手機遊戲裡面現在不只是騙錢而且還會產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10632.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10648.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
數位性剝削的一個可能性那麼本席這邊憂心兒少不只是被詐騙現在一步步在這樣子的過程當中會被拉成共犯那詐騙犯罪集團目前不是只有實體的到網咖去找人而且會躲在這些線上遊戲如星塵online傳說對決這些很熱門的線上遊戲 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10654.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10675.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
的聊天室裡那麼來專門挑長時間掛在網上的還有年紀偏小或者是沒有固定工作的玩家來搭訕會用一些話術例如打工送貨可不可以幫忙送一次性的東西兩千塊這樣子的話術但事實上已經在招募車手跟運毒的工具人 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10676.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10694.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
甚至有些少年以為只是幫忙送貨結果身上就被搜出了K他命這個是已經導致了成少共犯的情景社會感覺上是我們沒有任何的處置就會把孩子丟進犯罪的灰色地帶所以本席要先請教教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10695.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10713.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那麼審計部已經點名建議我們用短影音或高流用短影音或者是跟高流量的YouTuber來做一個合作來防詐那當然還有媒體宣導那麼教育部現在的作為待會是不是可以跟本席回應一下有沒有專門針對網購的詐騙還有遊戲點數的詐騙還有假打工招募這樣子兒少最常碰到的情況來製作教材 教案 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10724.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10744.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
這是教育部的部分還有另外一個就是學校端目前在資訊課的部分還有班級經營上有沒有很系統性很結構性的要求每一個學年應該放入防詐反讀跟媒體試讀的一些時數還是你們目前只是一些講座或者是簡單的宣導海報 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10746.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10764.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那這樣子跟一個系統性跟結構性的一個防詐反毒其實是可能還是有很大的一個落差那你們現在的一個作為是什麼那還是讓每一個國高中生有沒有最低時數的一個標準然後來接受一定時數的這個系統性的防詐反毒教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10764.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10789.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那另外警政署的部分本席想請教那面對目前手機遊戲網路遊戲聊天室在招募車手運毒的這種網路犯罪的猖獗那你們目前主要跟遊戲平台有沒有建立跟主要的遊戲平台有沒有建立固定而且非常暢通的通報機制或合作還是目前是被害人好像報案了才有動作那你們是有主動還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10791.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10807.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
被動的等待那另外第二個部分是針對高風險的這個少年資訊警政署目前有沒有籌就是統籌協調各部會地方政府在系統上與各地方少府會能夠取得單一少年的資訊平台也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10808.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10823.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
其實這個問題本行問過很多次但因為警政署是統整的目前就是少年發生的問題他可能今天詐騙明天吸毒或者後天有什麼家庭的問題每一次都針對事件有沒有針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10826.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10850.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
在這個對象本體當中他所遭遇的這個部分有一個系統性資訊的統整所以這個部分最主要就是說在更新的類別資料中我們希望學校設陣的體系還有家福 少府會等等在被送進這個體系之前能夠及時從各單位了解這個兔險少年這個少年的相關的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10851.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10872.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
而不是只是資料的搜尋那因為資訊不互通就沒有被重視就慢慢的它就演變成犯罪所以就會產生了陳紹共犯的一個問題所以這是本席要向這個警政署這邊來詢問的那是不是請你們針對本席上面所解釋的所講的那做一個比較具體的回應謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10875.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10896.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
謝謝委員關心兒少受到詐騙的議題教育部有配合行政院新世代打擊犯罪策略行動綱領我們有建置一個詐騙防治專區的網站裡面的內容有包括剛委員指導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10898.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10925.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
非常多的宣導的素材還有就是會去說明一些詐騙的那個樣態然後也有一些相關的法規的資源請教一下那你們有製作這些教材跟教案嗎有是我們也可以提供給那個委員本席比較關心的就是說那這個東西有沒有很事實的而且讓大家真的注意到這樣事情的一個嚴重性對 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10927.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10953.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那那個相關的時數呢時數的話目前應該是都是利用學校的一個團體活動的那個課程或者是它融入相關的課程比如說公民啊或者是綜合領域啊等等的它是融入因為在我們那個十二年國教108課綱裡頭本來就是在法治教育的內涵裡面它就有反詐騙的一個議題的內容那這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10955.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10975.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
聽起來就是好像資訊性的偏多本席現在講的是他已經兒少共犯的成少共犯的情形非常嚴重了所以可能目前在內容上還有系統上或主題性上可能要再加重因為你們可能在法治教育公民教育大家認為是一般性的這樣一個教育可是目前這個問題還蠻嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10977.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11003.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以可能在這內容當中的時數或者是內容的結構比重對 可能要做一下更新那是不是先把相關目前有的資料讓本席做一個了解那接下來警政署本席剛才所談的這個部分委員那剛剛委員所提的分成兩個區塊那就是有關詐欺我們的少年第一個是被騙第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11005.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11029.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
處罰那被騙這個區塊現在很多年輕小朋友尤其是在玩手遊這一部分常常透過手遊購物這個地方被騙那我們這個地方跟各手遊的業者包括速發部財政部我們都有做平台平常的溝通跟做市站另外一個是在處罰這一部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11031.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11057.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
少年會從事處罰都是當車手那這個主嫌一定是懲犯所以都幾乎沒有其他的類別所以就是處罰那麼多都是當詐騙的車手因為當車手不需要技術所以都很容易為了物質來加入了這個集團那這個部分我們也要求各 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11058.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11083.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
縣市的哨戶會能夠在開案這一部分就是剛剛我們召委所提到的新北的那個個案所以我們之前就是說如果是在學或是已經是在做管收了我們的哨戶會就不開案那經過這個個案之後我們嚴厲現在縱使已經是在管收輔導還是就學當中我們的哨戶會還是要繼續開案 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11084.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11088.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
好 謝謝你這邊的解釋跟回應但是本席這邊對於我們現在講的這個部分其實最關注的就是說這個可能會從被詐騙或者是已經有問題的兒少到犯罪之前我們是不是在資訊的一個整合度上不會他碰到什麼問題可能就有點先做某一些預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11109.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11130.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
不要讓他有機會到犯罪的程度因為他可能在被詐騙然後中間可能到犯罪的過程當中他會有一些不同形式的問題目前資訊似乎不是太整合你們目前是少婦會整合的一個統籌單位所以你們有沒有針對每一個單位需要知道的資訊就這個個案本體讓大家能夠了解呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11133.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11158.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
不會今天他被騙了然後就有一個資訊然後他明天可能又家庭發生了什麼問題那另外一個資訊所以各單位沒有辦法統整知道這樣一個少年他本身可能已經在步入到犯罪的路途上那我們可能在這個中間我們就可以趕快先做一個處理在資訊的統整度上你們這邊的一個做法呢那有關被騙這一部分我們拍了非常多的一個宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11159.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11182.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我講的是說那資訊的一個相互了解就是說那衛福單位知不知道這個個案的問題我們跟教育部各級的學校都有非常充分的配合來希望校園能夠做通報及警方在執行工作的時候發現有少年問題我們都有密切的來做配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11182.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11200.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我想請教一下目前我們感覺到資訊不互通你們現在除了說跟教育部跟比如說衛福部或者是這個社政體系的資訊的流通你們的一個做法呢目前大家可不可以找到相關的統整的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11202.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11211.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
像我們跟教育部固定有的開了很多的會議聯繫那目前學校面臨什麼問題那我們都共同的來面對問題來做解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11213.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11232.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好 本席這邊最主要是提醒你可不可以相關的資料後續讓本席的辦公室知道可以送給本席比較具體的一個做法最重要的就是說那個資訊不互通不要成為少年在被詐騙一直到犯罪的過程當中我們沒有及時去做處理的一個狀況好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11233.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11248.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這是最重要的那接下來很快我們還是問一下有關於本席一直很關心的少府會的人力的這個問題那是不是請衛福部次長跟警政署本席想要針對這個部分還是做一個了解跟提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11249.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11265.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們其實談了很久都在講行政輔導先行但是少府會現在人力碰到的缺口然後社工跟少府員是第一線的人但是第一線的社工跟少府員目前真正碰到很大的問題我們舉例來說好了因為這本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11268.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11286.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
在質詢的這個部分已經談過很多次我們舉例說台中的尚服會目前有二十名社工但是三分之二的年資不到兩年資深的社工大量的流失我們真的要去思考這個問題就代表環境不好讓大家很難做 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11286.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11313.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那高雄市的少府會呢一年的業務費只有30萬甚至有的時候還要靠社工自己做計劃那這還是直轄市喔社工一個人手上要接到15到30個個案但是我們再看看台東縣只有兩個人他要兼行政輔導提案甚至時常要有臨時的危機處理這樣子的配置很難實際的落實我們行政輔導先行 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11315.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11337.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
利益良好但是在實際的作為上我們沒有把一些細節弄好的話它其實也會成空所以本席這邊要請衛福部跟警政署這邊回應一下請衛福部是不是會同警政署來全面盤點各縣市少府會的社工人力還有經費跟聘用的結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11338.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11363.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
並明確定出中央負擔的最低補助標準不要讓各縣市在各憑本事那這會衝擊到最大的就是偏鄉跟原鄉這些地區那第二個部分是少府員的這個薪資不要再用計劃執行率來給付因為有的時候會延宕那麼社政體系最穩定的工作者不能成為薪資不穩定的一個受害者好嗎然後第三個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11364.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11387.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
少府會目前的運作主力就是聘社工人員請衛福部警政署共同研擬出我們如何來強化少府會人力的資源計畫包括專業培訓專業薪資合理化還有聘勤的穩定化才能真正留住人針對本席以上少府會人力這樣一個建議你們的看法就這三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11388.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11416.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
很快的簡單給本席的回應委員對這個問題的關心這個部分有關人力跟業務費這個都是社安網這邊我們會來有預算的支持我們要地方那邊當然要先報上來剛剛委員你剛剛所說你現在還是其實有這個問題還是要中央比較積極的來主動處理好不好不要一直在等地方我們是中央我們很多東西要走的比地方快好 謝謝委員我們會來全力來推動好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11418.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11446.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
好 謝謝林倩琪委員的詢答那確實我們有責任替那些沒有被看到需要被保護的孩子多做一點事那我們也希望今天各部會這麼多委員的一個提出來的一些問題共同來提出一個可執行的一個時間跟責任的一個歸屬還有這個跨部會的一個協作的一個機制那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11448.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11471.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
接下來楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在那所有的登記的委員都已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或者書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員跟本會那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11473.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11485.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
林縣級委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請參觀機關以書面來做一個答覆本次的會議我們就到此結束現在上會 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11519.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11520.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
謝謝大家 |