| IVOD_ID |
17078 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17078 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-19-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-27T08:35:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-27T12:34:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:58:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db66a25cdaa7df4ae823404d76460a293a85db5c09cad80ab77074d80392d74c6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：
一、 本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、 本院委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。
三、 本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。
四、 本院委員馬文君等19人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。
五、 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。
六、 本院委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等17人擬具「森林法第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。
七、 本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「森林法第九條之一及第十五條條文修正草案」案。
八、 本院委員游顥等25人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。
九、 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「森林法第十五條條文修正草案」案。
十、 本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「森林法第二條、第十七條之二及第五十六條之三條文修正草案」案。
十一、 本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。
十二、 本院委員林岱樺等16人擬具「森林法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。
十三、 本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「森林法第二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。
十四、 本院委員張雅琳等19人擬具「森林法部分條文修正草案」案。
(第十三及第十四案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) (僅詢答)） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:02 - 12:34:00 |
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1463.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1463.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1715.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1726.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
請築密報告出席人數報告委員會出席人數出席委員10人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1727.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1757.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議事錄時間114年11月19日星期三9時至11時54分114年11月20日星期四9時1分至12時12分地點紅樓101會議室初期委員林黛化等12人請教委員2人列席委員柯之恩等22人列席人員114年11月19日星期三經濟部部長龔明新行政院公共工程委員會副主任委員陳威祥等 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1758.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1776.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
114年11月20日星期四 國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢經濟部部長龔明勳 數位發展部政務次長侯怡秀國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員蘇政剛 教育部常務次長朱俊璋勞動部部長洪森翰等主席 楊朝濟委員瓊英 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1779.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1804.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
114年11月19日星期三 報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄 決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長率台灣中油股份有限公司董事長及行政院公共工程委員會首長就中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程款項爭議進行報告並被質詢經濟部部長龔明鑫及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長方振仁報告後委員林大化等16人提出質詢進而經濟部部長龔明鑫 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1806.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1824.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
及行政院公共工程委員會副主任委員陳薇祥等即席答覆決定1.登記發言委員處不在場者外 其餘經營發言完畢 訊答結束2.委員員瓊玉玲及邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄 看任公報3.書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於週內書面答覆並複製本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1826.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1842.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
114年11月20日星期四 八號事項邀請國家發展委員會主任委員 經濟部部長 數位發展部首長國家科學及技術委員會首長教育部首長及勞動部首長就攸關台灣未來的競爭力 直指AI時代 台灣如何贏得新人才戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1842.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1864.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
進行報告並備諮詢國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢及經濟部部長龔明勳報告後委員陳婷菲等17人提出諮詢經由國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員蘇政剛經濟部部長龔明勳數學發展部政務次長侯怡秀勞動部常務次長陳明仁教育部常務次長朱進章等及其答覆決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1864.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1866.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我们现在先继续进行讨论事项请宣读 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1887.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1913.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
審查1本院委員賴銳榮等17人委員蔡毅等17人委員陳婷菲等16人委員張雅琳等19人分別擬據申請法部分條文修正草案等5案2本院委員陳冠廷等18人委員馬文君等19人委員游浩等25人委員林黛嬅等16人分別擬據申請法增訂第8條之1條文修正草案等4案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1916.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1942.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
3.本院委員鄭天才等18人委員楊瓊英等26人分別擬據申請法第二條及第15條條文修正草案等二案4.本院委員吳立華等17人擬據申請法第17條之二及第56條之三條文修正草案5.本院委員盧憲一等16人擬據申請法第9條之一及第15條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1944.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1958.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
6 本院委員黃人等29人擬拒 申請法第15條條文修正草案7 本院委員羅廷偉等16人擬拒 申請法第二條第17條之二及第56條之三條修正草案先斷筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1961.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1970.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
謝謝 那我們現在就介紹我們在場的官員我想我們就不浪費時間多介紹大家都認識了感謝部長 草原相關單位還有戴華委員那我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1976.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2003.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
本日議程所列討論事項為森林法部分條文修正草案那本日只有進行詢答那這部分我們也會等因為森林法現在目前行政院的版本已經在院會裡面已經通過也要等待送到立法院來那這個部分我們到時候會併案再去做討論那我們今天進行詢答那我們現在請伍麗華委員做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2018.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2030.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
謝謝主席大家早安我在這邊本席針對這次森林法的修法做提案說明森林是我國非常重要的自然資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2031.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2048.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
也是許多民眾親近山林體驗自然的重要公共空間但是隨著我們的山林解禁跟戶外活動的興盛部分的國有與公有鄰居由其行為太集中 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2049.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2075.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
以出現明顯的生態壓力研究也證實過度油氣將降低植坯覆蓋加劇土壤的硬化及充實讓自然環境面臨退化甚至不可逆的傷害那本席也處理過很多的油氣入山衝突像是大武哈油溪丹大林道等等為了讓民眾能夠永續的親近山林 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2076.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2083.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
让森林生态得以持续健康本席修法增订森林法第17条之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2083.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2108.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
及修正第56條之三主要的目的是在於回應近年國有公有林地因為油氣活動的快速成長所造成的環境衝擊有必要在法律層級明確的授權主管機關得採取管制措施以維護森林永續所以本席在森林法中新增了第17條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2108.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2127.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
明定主管機關得基於保護森林生態及環境的目的就森林區域內特定地點公告為管制地點並得採行成載量管理人員入出管制車輛使用限制以及宿營地點限定 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2128.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2150.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
指定或禁止等措施避免因为油气活动过度集中而造成森林的退化另外配合新增的管制机制修正第56条之三在第一项第四款增列未经管理机关许可进入第17条之二所公告之管制地点为处罚行为 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2151.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2168.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
並新增第1項第5款對於違反主管機關1第17條之2所公告之各項管制事項者予以處罰來提升法治的完整性並確保管制效果透過本次修法建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2169.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2197.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
制度的管制跟明确的法源将有助于主管机关林业署于必要时采取适当的管理措施兼顾民众青山的需求跟森林生态永续的发展避免环境不可回复的损害而本席所提的版本呢农业部 法务部 财政部 内政部 人民会 交通部 退府会皆无意见表示支持那以上修正敬请委员们支持谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2198.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2204.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
谢谢 谢谢吴丽华委员的说明谢谢 我们现在请尤浩委员说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2213.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2242.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
OK 謝謝趙偉 謝謝部長跟在座各位委員 各位官員那在今天的話本席提出的森林法第八條之一那因為在南投縣其實不管是南投縣跟許多的一些台灣各縣市的地方那常常有許多的這種土地的爭議國有或公有林地的爭議那其實在這個部分他們常常農民都會遇到許多後面在補償的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2243.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2263.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那其實當許多的每次的在山區或是在包括在許多遠鄉的包括國人他們那時候在討論到還每次的選舉不管是藍綠都喊著還地於民還可是實際上到底是不是真的在法制上還讓這個還地於民來落實啊那這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2264.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2285.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
除了國人或是農民他們在栽種的時候遇到的這些土地爭議導致他們在任何風災受損的時候他們血本無歸但是卻在任何的補償來講總是吃虧那其實在這樣子的一個這個制度上一直以來都有一個82721的一個解決方案但是其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2286.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2302.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他們在遇到問題的時候許諾的機關常常互踢皮球所以森林法增進第八條之一的部分它是為了讓現有的耕作者生計他能夠在這樣子82721的實際使用或是啃用的部分還來做一個法制化讓他們具體能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2303.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2323.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
解決機關護體啤酒的問題那同時他們也要繳清歷年使用的補償金還在後面在能夠讓機關實際上能夠來進行出租才能夠達到還地漁民保障農民的一個正確做法所以在出租辦法也希望未來是由管理機關來訂定那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2323.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2351.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
提出的第8條之一那是能夠改善解決山區遇到的農民問題尤其是國有或公有林地的這個部分那希望說這個提案還許多的委員跟機關也能夠支持讓我們常常在遇到這農民的問題我們有法治的部分來進行實際上的解決還在這裡也拜託各位謝謝我們現在請羅廷輝委員提案說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2360.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2376.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好 山區油氣的活動近年來快速的成長常出現植被被踐踏土壤沖蝕 垃圾遺留違規的露營還有露宿這一個部分的亂停車等情形造成森林生態的整個破壞與環境的品質下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2377.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2394.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
部分地區甚至出現難以回復的環境退化跡象已影響了公共利益還有長期的一個保育目標現行的制度主要針對了自然保護區森林遊樂區定有較完整的管理規範但對於其他外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2394.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2422.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
公有国有的林地油气压力等行为的一个管制尚缺明确的一个法源以及工具我们形成了一个管理的一个疏失跟落差因此本草案最主要的目的是建立更完整的森林油气的管理架构管理据在这一次森林法第二条第17条之二第56条及第三条的条文修正草案除配合行政院的组织改造将森林 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2423.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2448.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
法的一个中央主管机关名称由我们的修正为农业部之外呢另一方面新增了强化对国有公有的林地不当油气的一个行为还有管制的一个法则以维护森林生态的一个环境兼顾民众青山的权益谢谢赵伟在今天排审森林法的一个草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2449.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2460.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
希望可以早日完成健全我国的森林保育以及油气的管理法则以上谢谢谢谢提案说明我们请张亚林提案说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2470.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2490.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 謝謝主席我想這幾年大家都非常清楚的知道說我們其實越來越多青山的活動不管是登山健行或者是露營那其實都已經是很多人週末或者是休憩的一個重要的選擇那其實在鼓勵大家參與自然活動的時候我們也必須要去思考一下到底開放的程度要多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2491.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2517.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不應該是一刀切開放或不開放而是我們應該有個更科學化的方式來去評量說到底這個地方的承載量到底是多少所以呢因為有了這個承載量的制度之後我們的主管機關才能夠依法去公告人流或車流的上限必要的時候可以劃設管制區避免生態應過度的使用而無法恢復讓開放不是破壞而是永續 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2517.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2533.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以在這次的修法裡面我提出了第一點就是把這個制度納入那第二個還有就是不當行為我想大家也都有看過一些影片有人會在這些地區森林的地區去修器的時候也餵食了野生動物 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2534.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2549.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
也喂食了游荡犬猫那其实呢这些都会改变这个这些动物的觅食习性那一旦动物习惯人为喂食的时候呢也会造成族群的异常疾病的传播 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2550.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2579.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那所以呢這個遊蕩犬貓呢甚至也會因為族群擴張過快而捕食或是這個捕獵這個野生動物那也破壞了棲地危害了整體的生態環境所以這一次的修法裡面呢我們也明定了禁止餵食野生動物和遊蕩犬貓會提供讓這個大家在執法的時候呢提供一個更清楚的執法依據所以我要強調是說我們希望民眾青山但是我們還是要去考量到 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2579.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2605.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
10年後20年後我們的山林依然是如此的美麗然後我們的生態多樣性依然是存在在我們的森林裡所以我希望大家可以來支持就是乘載量管制以及加上我們禁止餵食遊蕩犬貓跟野生動物讓我們的山林開放跟永續可以並行謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的提案說明那我們現在請陳俊晉部長就委員提案進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2616.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2635.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
主席各位委員那今天封邀到立法院經濟委員會第12次的全體委員會議來審查森林法部分條文修正案以下緊究森林法部分行政院版的部分跟委員版的部分做一些說明那第一個部分是整個森林法 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2636.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2657.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
其實農業部有自己的版本那農業部的版本現在已經在院已經審查完畢了然後只要代院會通過以後就會納入我們這一次的一個審查並按去處理那行政院版的部分主要的修正目標是開放森林並適度管理兼顧森林永續生態的一個保護資源那修法大概有三個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2658.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2683.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那第一個重點就成如剛才很多委員所說的就是因山林的開放造成一些山林地區的一個生態的壓力所以我們在修法的裡面就是只要從事休息活動或是影響森林生態的部分可以由主管機關來公告管制範圍跟管制事項那第二個修正重點是針對這些重要的國內的重要尊貴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2684.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2708.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
貴重的木材還有就是國外非法進來的木材我們可以限制或禁止這些輸出路以保護杜絕這樣的一個爛財那修正的第三個重點就是加重人為活動造成的森林火災的一個刑責那過去我想有幾次也是因為人為火災造成一些不可收拾的這些災情所以我們在這次修法特別加重及刑罰下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2715.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2729.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那接下來就是我們做了一些比較就是針對立法院立法委員所提的版本大概有14個案子那14個案子我們根據相關的這些條我們做了一些歸納那其中有 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2731.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2751.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
三個版本是針對修正第二條的部分是將原來行政院農業委員會改制為農業部調整主管機關的名稱那這個部分我們尊重委員的提案那第二個部分是針對國有公有林在82721前實施居住讓墾值的部分可以淨於出租的部分那這個部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2753.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2770.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
現在目前本部正在處理爛墾地的一個租放的事項那相關的這些租用的部分有不同的樣態所以我們建議不納入本市的修正那第三個部分是增訂第九條之一項對原住民地區的森林的部分在施工的時候必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2772.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2794.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
辦理原住民基本法第21條的諮商同意或參與那由於整個森林地區其實它含有一些部分的私有的林地的所有人的權益那如果說樣樣全部都要經過諮商同意的部分會造成很多緩不濟急特別是在緊急施工的時候所以我們也建議不納入本市的一個修正下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2795.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2815.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那有部分的委員版本有提到修正第15條就是針對原住民地區可以依傳統文化祭祀或致用墓的部分針對漂流墓的部分可以不受這個註記的一個規定那在這邊我也特別說明就是當自然災害來臨的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2816.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2841.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
山林的一些飄零木下來我們必須第一時間去做標記而且那段時間是一個比較危險的時間如果說沒有這樣的一個規定的時候貿然的這樣開放的話反而會對於原住民在減食的這些人員然後造成一些可能身體的一些受傷或其他的部分所以我們也建議不納入這次的一個修法的一個增訂那 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2841.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2869.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
接下來是增訂第17支2條對於休憩活動影響生態管理的部分那這個部分是跟我們現在報請行政院審查的一個方案大致相同的我們尊重委員的提案那接下來有一些委員是針對中央儲管機關的管制零產品的輸出及輸入那這個部分與我們報行政院版本的草案是大致相同的我們也尊重委員的提案那 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2871.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2898.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
修正第48支一條的部分有兩個版本那是增列地方主管機關為獎勵長期照領的一個對象那在這邊也特別說明因為地方政府也是執行獎勵照領的一個執行的單位那相關的都是政府單位的時候做照領其實是本分不應該用照領的方式再去領這個獎勵所以我們也建議不納入本市的一個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2899.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2911.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那接下來是針對三個版本有提到的就是加重人為活動造成放火失火的一個刑責的部分那在這邊有一部分就是跟我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2913.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2942.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
抱怨的版本大致相同我們尊重委員的一個提案但是針對森林燒毀後的回復原狀的執行那有他的一個困難度因為如果大面積的燒毀的時候要這些燒毀的人去做一個原樣的復原有他的有他的一個困難度那同樣的部分我想我們可以用其他的刑罰的部分或裁罰的部分去處理所以這個部分我們是建議不納入本市的一個修正那下一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2943.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2969.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那另外那個有版本是提到放火及失火行為主動通報的一個義務的罰則那相關現在的規定就是你如果主動通報的時候就可以減免它的就是拙減它的一個量刑的部分那如果說我們把它強制變成它的義務的時候那有時候我們內部評估是有時候反而會造成人家不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2970.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2994.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
不敢通報反而造成一些後續沒辦法處理因為在森林裡面很少人會看到的時候會造成一些所以建議不納入本市的一個修正那接下來是修正版本是修正第56條之一的部分那是違反第45條之一的罰則那我們尊重委員的提案這跟相關的罰則是一致的那另外修正第56條之三的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2995.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3023.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
也是增訂相關的法則特別是在生理娛樂區或自然保護區的餵食的一個動物的法則那這個部分我想我們也尊重委員的提案那另外有版本是提到修正第58條的部分那是訂定就是第45之一跟第56條之一的實施日期那這個部分我想我們等到法律過了以後我想我們也會尊重委員的一個提案那整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3025.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3052.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
一個森林法的修正其實是為了森林的永續的一個經營跟生態的維持那也非常感謝所有的委員提這樣的一個版本那部分的版本雖然說並沒有納入我們現在這次送院的一個版本但是我們也絕對尊重委員在委員會這邊提的一個版本我們也絕對一個尊重以上報告謝謝部長部長你們現在這個已經到院裡面了嗎你們的現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3054.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3070.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
通過完就會到立法院那我要拜託一下因為剛剛你在報告的時候只有很多部分你們不予修正那我相信你們要去說服這些委員你們到底現在已經有機制在你的機制在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3071.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3098.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
好你要去說服我覺得這才是希望趕快讓森林法通過否則我們沒有辦法去讓這所謂的森林大我們去預指這些動作就是趕快用法來讓你們有武器好拜託一下謝謝謝謝部長我們現在先來確定上次會議思路有沒有問題沒有的話我們先確定會議思路好那我們現在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3101.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3129.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
本次我们会议各部会所提的书面报告请委员自行参阅并刊登公报那本日议程讨论事项合并询答委员咨询前依照往例做以下宣告每位委员发言时间五分钟本会委员五分钟必要时延长两分钟非本会委员四分钟上午十点三十分截止发言登记我们请第一位登记的林黛华委员发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3132.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3142.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
有请部长请部长国务院好 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3143.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3167.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
剛才主席說請你要跟各位提案委員溝通從你的報告當中只要立法院跟你意見不同的你都完全叫做不予納入跟你行政院版的你叫納入我不知道你要溝通什麼第二個今天本席站在這邊就是要捍衛在山區四代居住居民的土地正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3168.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3184.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
今天在山區當中為什麼原住民可以漢民族不可以我是大力支持原住民當中尤其我很敬佩我們不分藍綠的原住民立委他們這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3185.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3208.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
每一屆每一屆包括政府政權的更迭他們不放棄的願為原住民在山區居住的土地正義的捍衛透過立法透過成為行政機關今天漢民族在山區居住的事實跟山原住民是一樣的我再更講第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3209.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3230.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
林務 農業部跟國有財產署財政部的國有財產署兩個不同的部門反而是國有財產署重視到了山區居住世代的這個居住的土地正義而林務局你沒有 你只看到樹沒有看到裡面有住人 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3231.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3240.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以本席所提案的剛才我很認真的聽幾個非本黨的不分藍綠的委員針對這個森林法第8條之一不分藍綠喔所提出來修法你到底有沒有聽進去啊 我覺得你沒有包括你整個的報告我也很認真聽到最後我們在這個森林的生態保育這當然本席支持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3259.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3287.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
你都沒有講到人那你修什麼啊你修什麼 你還來跟我們溝通什麼藍綠的立委這邊陳冠廷委員這個提案 馬文君委員提案游皓委員提案 本席提案我還沒講到連署的人喔我們全部都給你打臉了嘛所以你的法案你沒有聽到名義耶好 開始本席 林班弟還是家這本席直接點出重點了 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3289.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3289.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3291.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3320.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
法律不能只屬森林有幾公頃也要交代山林有幾戶人家台灣山區的發展歷史悠久政權多次更迭地籍資料的缺漏土地登記制度長期不完善而使得我許多山區居住的居住權益被侵蝕生活環境受到威脅土地使用權及其合法的權益面臨嚴峻的挑戰這些都明白的寫在本席跟其他提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3321.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3346.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
你們反對的這個森林法增訂第8條之一說明當中爬梳歷史民國58年的時候政府為了穩定山區居民的生計以第一版的杭照圖認定既有佔肯跟居住事實排除地質的敏感地區容許簽訂正式的租約或移交國有財產主以建築用地跟榮木用地來簽約好 到了民國66年78年90年就辦了三次的補辦作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3350.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3352.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
最後一次補辦97年看好這個數據民國97年的申報案件當中有6200多件最後只有684件通過只有一成多的通過表示給你申辦當中有九成現在被認定為違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3370.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3380.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以一直就一直這二三十年來一直就被讓你認定為違法所以包括你們的詞彙用的多可怕叫做濫墾地你認為他們叫做濫墾戶多可憐啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3386.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3411.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
國有財產署可以你為什麼不可以好代表絕大數實際居住的使用的戶數始終被排除在制度之外在同一塊土地在林務機關的電腦裡面被標示為林班地在居民的記憶當中叫做家這個矛盾如果不透過法律的補正山區居民會永遠被標記為違規占用戶今天本席宣示 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3413.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3426.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
森林法的第8條之一是在處理國家對山區居民長期牽扯的歷史帳不是替新違章開後門搞清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3428.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3443.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
什麼叫做 你看啊你們寫什麼 你們的報告寫什麼這個呢 對於這個呢 還是你們寫說呢之前依法排除佔用者顯示橫貧在實務執行上衍生爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3445.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3462.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
哇 你們這個完全都沒有看到人耶我不知道你的存在是為了樹木還是為了人而存在好 再來制度門一直在收窄居民始終被排除在外現行國有林地總面積161萬公頃山區內許多建物跟農田具有長期使用與歷史背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3467.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3485.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
卻因法律設計不完備被一律視為違規佔用生活受到影響所以把人民從佔用戶改名為陳租戶不是放水而是把國家欠下的帳補給回來所以本席我也沒多厲害我就比照國有財產法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3486.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3504.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
一字不漏的超過來在森林法當中國有或公有土林地於民國82年7月20號以前以實際居住使用並願繳清歷代歷年的使用補償金則則管理機關也就是你林務署林保署就可以給予出租 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3505.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3528.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好那比照國有財產署的國有財產法的精神你必須提供這些喔戶籍涉及資料房屋稅水電證明建物權利的證明再加上我會用修正單位加起來這三個士林證明以及經法院判決確認佔用的事實經法院判決他是佔用表示他真的居住啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3529.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3551.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
然後或者是林保署列管的占用戶以及政府於820721日前設置的圖資等等剛才我的提案就是把國有財產署的這些的文件寫到森林法這邊來而已所以一國兩制嘛你們就是連這樣的事實連照抄國有財產署的都懶得抄 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3552.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3580.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
好也就是說對像是國有跟公有林地的歷史常住戶10點明確鎖定在82721以前必須提出可檢視的客觀證據所以本席的提案包括其他委員的提案他是一套嚴格可集合財政補償基礎的歷史普證機制不是榮等的特色跟全面合法化所以本席要求在本法通過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3581.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3604.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
當然我還是尊重主席啦如果主席我也希望主席的要懇請主席您的才智要把我們這幾個立委提案的森林法徵修第八條之一納入院版你院版要有態度啊你沒有的話那你幹嘛送出來什麼大家都一定不滿意嘛你也沒有解決民怨那你送出來幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3605.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3618.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
好所以呢這個通過之後我也要求其實現在你們就要做了三個月內全國國有及公有土地府82721前已有實際居住使用的紀錄的疑似戶數的盤點而這個全國的盤點當中也請你依限識別使用樣態書面送交 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3625.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3644.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
本委員會並公開那包括你們也事先這個規劃好在這個本法通過之後的六個月內參考國有財產法的銜接方式提出森林法第八條之一的整體實施的計畫包括審查流程證明文件要讓人家提出申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3646.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3655.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
好再來我講這幾個個案這不是個案是一整個市在的山區居民耶西頭莊家案嘉義山區暴憤起伏西頭莊家案市區這個西頭莊家案的莊家是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3661.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3685.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
他世世代代與你林務局造林契約 最後還是走向拆屋還地南投西投的專家從清代開始就在當地耕作日治時代與戰後初期都被視為地方的遠啃人物民國56年的時候更與台大石研林簽署了40年的造林契約結果還是被你們片面的解約那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3686.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3706.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
嘉義山區居民跪地求土地證與生存權這個我在這邊要表達對陳明文陳前立委的致敬他2023年的時候媒體報導嘉義縣山區居民應有國有林搬地林業用地國土保安用地等辯定長年面臨住了幾十年的家被說是違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3707.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3720.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
一翻修就處罰 不斷被移送法辦要求拆屋還地的處境包括奮起伏 你要翻修 要還房子就沒理由了 林班地限制下的日常困境是什麼日常困境是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3723.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3744.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
為什麼2019年公司都正式的報導嘉義縣阿里山的奮吉湖地區原居民因住在這個林班地連最基本的整修房屋都寸步難行長年活在這棟房子到底算不算維護好的非法店我舉這三個這是比較特別的案例我的高雄市我整個山區也是這個狀況啊六龜 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3747.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3757.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
從我本席當立委到現在25年了尤其六龜的山區常常都有這種林班地啊你們都說違法 人家是在那邊世代居住欸好 再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3759.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3778.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好我們看這些事實是什麼西投莊西投莊家案在現行制度下不管居民世代主張4G多久在無法在現行的體制下證明為合法最後的結局都只有拆除跟驅離所以森林法第8條之一是要解決這個結構的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3780.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3784.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
嘉義山區案居民在立委服務處陳明文陳立委的這個服務處這樣跪求欸你看到這個不會流淚嗎還要人民跪求欸你們的那個農業部在幹什麼你看到這個跪求你心裡不會淌血嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3798.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3811.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
請求這個土地證與生存權的畫面 凸顯這不是單一個案而是整個山區治理結構的長期問題 奮起無案好 這雖然是林班第四你們管人家來問國有財產署 人家國有財產署就講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3813.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3824.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
不好意思我們這個國有財產署的辦理方法很簡單陳初步你領到租約之後只要依租約使用就可以繼續合法不會被拆除我們有明確的幾個文件你只要提出來就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3831.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3845.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我只差說好國有財產署在做跟你做指導你連聽都不聽啊所以呢這可以證明一件事情從一國我們國家政府一體的情況之下國有財產署做得到你零保署就做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3846.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3874.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
證明一件事情只要國家承認歷史使用的私資透過解編 懲諸主席不好意思再兩分鐘等機制調整地目與權利居民就可以在不犧牲森林保育的前提下講好不犧牲森林保育的前提下可以取得穩定安全的居住環境所以森林法的第八條之一就是把這樣的個案協商的經驗制度化為可普遍適用的法律工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3875.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3880.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那再来下一页好下一页好下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3881.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3906.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好 山區居民本席就要立即要求 既然現在在修法階段我提出三點 這個不是森林法第八條之一不是只上座而是真正落實 包括你院版現在正在進行所以第一個 立即暫緩強制拆除你的報告說什麼啊 說說你們還在針對爛肯定的清理機制還要分聯進行排除佔用 你給我即刻給我暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3908.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3922.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
給我即刻暫停如果在森林法當包括你的院版當中沒有修法通過以及這個當中沒有納入第8條之一的執法修法完成之前逾率上訪強制拆除局刑事移送避免編修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3923.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3949.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
編拆敷的荒謬情況 如果這個剛才你講了你的院版都還在進行當中 你還在修法的階段你還在拆敷 這個不是很荒謬嗎好 再來全國盤點跟資料公開在你們現在本席要求三個月內你盤點全國的國有跟公有林地的疑似符合的條件的住戶全部盤點這樣而且要以圖資跟數據的方式公開 送本院備查 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3950.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3958.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
避免黑箱操作與選擇性執法以及從現在開始你們要準備在這個六個月內完成實習細則怎麼參考一下學習一下國有財產署他們怎麼讓人民來申辦的就學習他我讓你六個月去學習好最後我要呼籲的是夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3971.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3994.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個不好意思主席我停一下這個你們一直都不能動我一直不能按這個處理一下好嗎好同一個家庭是占用戶還是國民森林法第8條之一是讓國家承認一個簡單的事實在161萬公頃的國有林地不只有樹也有一代又一代住在那裡的人你的161萬公頃裡面的國有地沒有樹人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4000.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4016.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
有住的原住民我們支持他 我大力的支持住的閩南人 住的漢民族你就不把他當做人看啊而且連國有財產署都認定這樣的漢民族都可以住在那邊了你的農業部還忽視 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4019.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4044 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
還忽視說這161萬公頃當中沒有住的人你的土地正義捍衛的人權在哪裡憲法保障的人民的居住權在哪裡本席要求今天行政院跟主管機關正面回憶這個條文背後的歷史欠帳以具體行動讓山區居民在不犧牲環境保育的前提下終於能夠在國家法律內被當成有名字 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4044.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4059.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
有地址有權利的公民 同一個家庭在地級上可以被叫作戰用戶在國家記憶裡面 應該永遠被叫作國民謝謝主席 那他的回應咧 到底他針對真理法第8條 這些委員提案是忽視呢還是一樣 反正跟我沒關係我們要跟委員溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4069.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4096.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
好 會跟委員溝通溝通是朝向來跟我們有看重的這個人民的居住權還是不要土地正義你剛才講得非常好土地正義我們現在只要求他要有證明那航照圖的證明你剛才講的清朝日本時代的時候航照圖一定會出現所以現在我們處理的是你航照圖沒有的時候那就是先讓肯的部分那我們就會處理來 你再只講一個本席提的那個法案不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4098.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4103.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
國產署跟我們農業部本身的處理的原則是不一樣 我們有清理 國產署沒有清理 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4120.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4137.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那個是你的列正 所以我叫你清理啊你終於講出重點了所以我說你三個月內要提出清理啊因為有清理 所以不能像國產署一樣一個時間點切下去就結束了喔 對 我想你已經講到重點因為你沒有清理因為我們有清理 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4139.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4164.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
因為你沒清理所以你的疑似或是我叫你盤點然後你才依照這些那個戴華偉跟部長因為時間已經所以你把我高雄市山區的居民放在哪裡我六龜 紅森林 甲仙我會跟委員再溝通你把我高雄市山區的居民東九區的居民放在哪裡我就講我高雄市就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4165.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4182.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你放在哪裡 你現在還在跟我騙說好我只有一項規則就可以了為什麼國有財產署可以多少我還針對可以六項的申請的要件水電證明也可以啊你只有一個航照圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4183.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4206.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們請部長針對我們目前一些土地的一些寬容的部分因為確實很多都是很早就已經在這一塊土地生長的他的一個權益所以因為過去可能我們老一輩的沒有資料那麼清楚而造成他自己的權益受損這也不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4206.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4233.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以拜托大家 就是拜托部长我们的署长这里我们了解一下状况因为不是在高雄而已台南 嘉义每个地方都有这个状况也确实林务局的相关土地林班地的部分比较多这个状况那台南署都已经有调整了那我们林班地要怎么调整那当然我们现在是用航测图可是航测图完之后还是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4233.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4258.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
遺珠之憾那這個部分怎麼補強怎麼補足再拜託我們部長再做一個思考再跟我們委員再做討論那個主席可不可以請你請他們我不敢說要求啦我已經很寬容了說請他們研議納入院版的版本你沒有研議納入院版版本其實對我們這些委員長期以來所以請他先把 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4258.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4284.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我们的意见然后收集起来沟通因为目前院版还没进来他的院版没有我很认真看他的简报对他的院版我看了简报从他不管他增订的部分他的修正的地你的简报的地第几页第二页所以我们还有一个修法的阶段讨论的阶段就只有第二页到时候再来做处理好待会因为时间上谢谢主席谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4286.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4288.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
謝謝我們戴華委員的質詢謝謝部長謝謝我們請賴瑞榮委員質詢謝謝主席請陳部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4311.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4338.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
部長我先請教一下那個台中豬瘟10月份的時候發生台中豬瘟那現在整個就農業部的看法是已經控制住了嗎以現在看起來應該全國應該沒有其他的那個潛在的這些病例所以控制住了那從這一次的這個經驗裡面的話有哪些需要再做更多的加強的從海關到市場甚至到豬場的一些控制有哪些認為應該再做加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4339.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4367.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我很快的跟委員說明就是我們的肺肉豬分防疫大概三個關卡第一個部分是邊境管制邊境管制本身我們也增加了一些效率然後後市場的稽查現在也在做了最重要的是最後的那道防線的部分那相關的規定我們在有可是各縣市本身的執行的強度可能有稱之不齊所以這個部分我想我們後續會跟縣市政府的查核的部分我想我們會再有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4367.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4391.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我一個一個對一下啦所以在海關的部分有加強在做吧持續加強嘛對不對那郵件郵包的部分呢相關的郵件郵包的部分也增加大概20%的抽檢率抽檢率啦希望能夠防堵有任何的這些的疫區的國家的豬肉進來啦其實不只疫區我們全部都不准進來的那另外在市場端的部分有持續來加強嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4392.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4411.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
對 市場端我們針對相關的這些高風險的這些商店我們也會去採用聯合稽查特別是衛福部針對食品的部分也會去做稽查特別是一些比如說中國 越南或其他一些高風險區的商店他們有可能販售的一些豬肉產品的時候就會去做家常稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4412.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4435.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那當然另外 豬場這一次很大的原因是在於廚餘並沒有真正落實到真主的機制這個也會強力去要求地方政府來做到嗎對 我想我們後續會再跟地方政府做一個有效的溝通因為裁罰只是一個手段而已它應該是防範於未來就是說本身如果說還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4436.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4458.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
發生的第一時間就要抓到才法是最後不得已說但是一旦發生了就來不及所以是一定是要落實去做相關的工作比如說你的廚餘的有在用廚餘那些的烹煮是不是確實有落實到一個小時90度這個一定要落實去做嘛所以這個會農業部跟地方政府會持續的再去要求更多的這些作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4459.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4484.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們中央應變中心每個禮拜都還在開會我們一直要求這個一定要要求落實下去這只要有幾個縣市沒有落實到或有幾個農場這個豬場沒有落實到的話就有可能會造成是個破口好不好這個請農業部跟地方政府要不斷的要求去做這件事情這個很嚴重的這一次主要的點就落在這個地方嘛那當然一旦如果發生了後面的控管這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4485.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4512.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
顯然當時台中市政府也有一些問題的這個部分也希望能夠納入到標準作業程序把這個訂定清楚不要再有任何的機制上可能出現漏洞因為這一次算是不幸中的大幸就是並沒有整個擴散出去那如果一旦擴散出去的話那恐怕台灣就很難再恢復到非議區而且對我們的豬肉的這個就造成相當重大影響所以我希望這件事情農業部一定要落實這幾個原則都要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4513.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4529.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
會 我們會盡對他的努力那我問一下那如果全部都順利的維持在這樣的控制狀況的話三個月的時間我們可以提送去希望恢復到非疫區的部分嗎跟世界動物衛生組織來恢復成非疫區這預定待什麼時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4530.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4553.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我想我們要向WOH去提出非疫區的部分有幾個要件第一個就是說我們要證明說可能的來源我們都有有效的控管的部分這個部分可能牽涉到後面我們廚餘養豬的一些政策那如果都順利的話我們也希望說只要完備那個資料跟程序的話我們就會向WOH那最快什麼時候可以來提送 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4555.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4583.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
三個月是一個最快的如果三個月來看的話是2月21號是最快的時間最基本的時間但是要看我們的整個的來源的部分是不是有效的能夠掌握來說服WHO你說的是廚餘這個來源的部分嗎對 它所有的病毒的風險它都要我們那這樣子農業部有什麼樣的作為要來做的我想大方向我們對廚餘養豬本身除了那個我之前說的山藥件就是那個珍珠要落實那個雞盒要落實還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4584.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4602.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
法令的完備另外地方政府同意以外那整個廚藝的料源的大方向我們是朝著禁用家戶廚餘然後同時也希望給廚藝養豬業者有一段緩衝期再來做一個落日那像剛剛部長講這些原則要多久時間可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4604.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4622.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
整個現在在這個裝色監視器的部分環境部正在處理那他們是大概是應該是在年底之前12月7號應該會有第一波的裝色完成的部分那後續可能會在年底之前要全部裝色完畢那其他的措施呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4622.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4635.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那其他的措施現在我們的部分大概有一些轉型的措施我們都準備好了那相關的就是最主要是除以後端的這些再利用的處理量能是不是能夠那這個有辦法在三個月內完成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4637.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4656.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
應該可以啦可以啦所以我們的目標一樣是2月17號來2月21號來提出申請嘛是嗎對我們的文件的準備大概用三個月啦然後還要再持續的溝通因為送出去以後他不一定馬上合可能還有一些補充的啊但是我們送出的時間我們以2月21號來送出申請為非議區嘛2月21來申請嘛是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4658.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4677.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
大致上是這樣子好我們希望順利的到這個目標來完成那希望送出之後儘速的溝通儘速讓台灣恢復為肺疫區這對我們的豬肉對我們的這個產業都相當的重要好再來請教一下中國也傳出了有新的病毒這個包括他們的病史豬也流入市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4677.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4700.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
不只啦 包括像河北它有個蓋塔病毒非洲豬瘟甚至於包括廣州 福建 江西 河南 四川等都有感染這個農業部有在注意這件事情嗎我們有注意所以說我們的風險越來越大甚至於前幾天韓國又爆發了非洲豬瘟所以我們鄰近的國家其實不斷地在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4701.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4721.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
清除了以後再發生清除了以後再發生那台灣一定不要類似這樣的行為所以我們現在持續是用高強度的防疫的一個管制所以我希望剛剛講到那些防治的要更加的強度啦現在連中國又傳出新的病毒還有另外一個新的病毒所以我們對豬肉的管制必須更加的強制才能確保台灣豬的安全是 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4722.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4744.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好不好 這個請部長要落實那當然要加強宣導來重罰其實剛剛提到的甚至於其實包括中港澳 韓國 越南 泰國都有最近時間都有違規的包裹這些事件甚至於快遞也都有那這個部分我還是希望能夠加強去查緝現在抽檢是20%是不是提高20%提高20% 會再加高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4746.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4767.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
對 我們現在首檢區是100%經過X光啦 都是經過X光然後這個人工開箱的部分就提高了20%然後特別針對綠線的 綠線本來是不用查的我希望這一塊農業部再思考啦因為畢竟包裹進來是最沒有那個 因為不像隨行帶進來包裹的部分的話 隨時整個寄送的話 他不斷去測試你 不斷測試你那你有時候你罰也不見得罰得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4770.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4787.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以我是希望這件事情要再考慮加高特別是在中國的這個新的病毒又產生的時候這個要思考一下再包裹在郵件特別是有豬肉產品的要再加高它的抽檢的一個頻率我跟委員報告郵遞快遞也是百分之百特別是報關的部分喔快遞報關的部分它都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4788.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4813.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
家住他是從哪個國家來的這個部分我想我們會有風險這一塊要請務必要防堵因為我們認為很有可能這一次的台中的豬肉這個豬肉有可能也許就是從包國郵件進來的好不好 這個地方我希望農會部加嚴一個禮拜內給我你們的加重加嚴一些方案給我好不好好 我們把所有的那個邊境防堵的這些加重加嚴的方案給我參考好不好 把一份報告給我參考好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4821.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4823.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我們有請陳聽飛陳委員謝謝主席我們請部長有請陳部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4840.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4859.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
部長為什麼我們大家會這麼重視我們森林法而且為什麼大家會希望能夠保有我們一些先民甚至一代一代傳承然後到現在他的土地基本上他的生活範圍都在這裡可是因為很多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4860.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4876.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
他过去他的所谓的学识或是他的一些想法甚至他的一些识字的能力都没有像现在所以过去并没有保留那么多的资料 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4877.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4892.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那導致現在會有一些爭議所以這是我們在地方的所有民代現在遇到的一個問題我們也常常開協調會沒有錯在我們有航測圖航測圖是一個非常直接的一個科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4893.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4913.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們的一個延續因為它有好幾個階段行冊有好幾個階段日據時代之前或明清時代之前或是在這當中我們大概都是在日據時代那個時候以那個為準則如果在最早一批那時候我們可以行冊讀的最早的日期是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4915.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4923.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
65到71年65年最早的一批65到71这段时间65到71嘛所以我们大概所有的一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4925.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4944.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
化分點分水嶺都是在75年因為如果在75年到71年我們能拿到航測圖大概我們都認定說你可能在之前在早期我們的先民祖先就在這裡了然後一代一代傳承到現在可是現在我們有一些問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4946.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4970.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
他不一定会拍得那么清楚过去的科技跟现在科技是不一样的现在的科技可能会比较清楚一点可是在65年到71年那时候的航测图未必那么清楚我们还有人证物证你都可以举证可是人证物证你说65年前那些棋老到现在未必都存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4971.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4991.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那你說有一些人證 物證 物證的部分你如果沒有 當時候也沒水電啊沒水沒電 你要怎麼拿到這裡住所以其實現在很多的問題是在這個關卡可是事實上周邊的人都可以證明一炸就住在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4993.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5017.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這樣這邊怎麼辦就是說他可以知道里長可以證明嗎或是說很多周邊的一些人事物可以證明嗎這是現在最大的問題那很多公務人員就說不行啊我們的政府規定就是這樣你沒有認證不證可是當人證物證都不在的時候那他怎麼辦可是他現階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5018.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5043.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
有一些地方的人士可以证明确实他爸爸他阿公他什么人住在家那他可以保有他这样的一个权利吗其实我们在谈的是在这个部分那因为国有财产署确实因为有六个他的一个权衡那我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5043.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5071.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
林務局這邊是沒有林務局這邊是沒有的所以常常會有這些憾個所以這個也是我們希望說透過這次森林法有些我們能夠幫忙的而且確實當然如果他早就不住在這裡不可能因為我們不可能叫公務人員去違法這非常清楚我們是說有一些證據或是一些資料是真的可以證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5073.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5094.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
可以證明 那我們是不是應該更寬鬆要不然他整台人都住在這裡這樣的話 因為他的資料 因為東西可能我們在這個65年的資料並沒有照得很清楚因為以前的科技跟現在不一樣所以這個部分再拜託我們的部長稍微再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5096.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5115.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
斟酌一下该怎么样去协助他们这可能是比较重要的谢谢委员还有包括刚才那个戴华委员所提的我想我们内部会再去检讨比较务实面的部分以我的态度就是说只要能够证明不要让我们同仁在执法上造成一些违法的行为当然 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5116.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5132.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我一定会尽可能的去做这样的一个处理我们的前提就是不会让我们公务人员违法对 我知道所以我想我们会更积极的去做一些沟通看看委员有没有什么比较好的意见然后我们再纳入相关的指标对 你就去沟通那这样的话就会比较好一点因为既然我们今天在做这个森林法的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5133.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5160.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那么我们是不是可以借着这个机会有一些能够帮忙民众的地方但是前提就是不让我们公务人员违法这个前提非常重要第二个部分就是说我们在台南说真的它也是我们森林的重要基地我们国有林地就4740多公顷然后公有林地是121多公顷私有林地是4909多公顷 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5163.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5192.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以在這個森林法的一個部分我們都希望我們如何保護它然後不要傷害它可是我們要怎麼樣給你們有武器所以其實我們剛剛我為什麼會剛剛拜託部長說因為你在報告的時候很多是說你們認為這個不應修法就依照原來的可是我們會提出來是我們認為要給你們更多的武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5193.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5201.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
而且这个部分你加重他失火放火销毁生灵的罚则这些相关的他会有压力 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5202.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5229.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
其实有压力他就不会去这么做没有压力他就会以身试法这是我们其实在这一次我们提出一些修法认为应该有更多的量能来防止这一个生灵大火的一个问题而且我们也知道在整个生灵大火的起火原因有97%它是人为的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5230.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5252.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
他是人為的所以我們怎麼去遏止這樣的一個人為所以這也是我們這一次要修法所以我們到底要怎麼跨部會去防範森林大火部長我跟委員報告其實森林大火本身的防範最重要就是一些利害關係人不同的對象他可能包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5253.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5277.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
有施工的小木屋施工的也有旅客去野炊的部分那不同的部分應該客製化去做一些宣導的一些講習跟訓練然後你認為宣導就夠了嗎宣導是絕對不夠的宣導是絕對不夠的但是相對的我有宣導但是我有罰則我覺得這兩個是要一起互用的部分然後還有就是說有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5278.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5294.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
可能的一些現在目前天然災害的這些這些系統細胞簡訊的部分我們也可以來處理其實就是整個SOP啦是就像部長所說的你們宣傳法則好執行面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5295.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5322.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
執行面呢你這個SOP怎麼防範怎麼及時處理怎麼去跨部會做聯繫平台這不是你們農業部做就可以啦這必須要很多的單位一起好怎麼是事前預防宣導怎麼去如果發生的問題的時候有火災的時候有森林大火的時候你要怎麼去動員然後好你的水源點在哪裡這才是重點啊你看每一次森林大火一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5324.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5339.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我六天都打不完為什麼沒水完你沒有水源你怎麼打打滅所有的一個大火所以火災的破滅還有搶救它的取水地點它的取水方式這個會一定的SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5341.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5367.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我们现在应该有这样的相关的SOP包括有一些取水点我们都有预备的类似的蓄水池的部分万一有森林大火的部分不过我想这个部分我们应该更加强这个SOP的演练你要把它推出来这个SOP在哪里所有各部会到底在哪里我们要怎么做每一个人然后针对自己的位置如果发生问题的时候我们就可以第一时间 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5368.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5391.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
然後往前做各自應該有的動作然後讓我們這個森林大火趕快撲滅這才是我們SOP的重點謝謝委員提醒我們所以這個部分再拜託我們的部長這也是我們為什麼那麼急著說你們都還沒送出來因為這是我們的優先我們認為應該要讓你們有武器然後去遏止有97%是人為 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5395.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5398.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這是很恐怖耶這部分再拜託謝謝好這個我延續喔這個我把這個今天早上我遛歸鄉親們給我的簡訊他說這個林班第爛墾清理續辦申請已經從100年4月1號到114年3月31號只共4年 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5422.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5441.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
12月24日又延續到116年3月31日的方案是對人民很好的事情可是審查條件沒有放寬可想還是再次給林業署刁難百姓而已刁難百姓我聽了就多心痛 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5442.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5456.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以拜託委員想辦法林班地上具有建物原地合法已經有死了多少人了被告而拆除了這麼嚴重請委員大發慈悲心拯救整個肯龍元肯龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5457.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5472.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
的可憐啊人家國有財產署的出租地面上的的這個如建物這個原地都可以給合法人家還在額熱國有財產署我就把一個清晨7點多遛歸鄉親們給我的簡訊好 謝謝謝謝陳昭偉 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5482.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5486.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
謝謝戴華委員 謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員質詢請陳部長叫林保守的林署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5511.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5537.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們請部長跟署長謝謝我也好我一開始執行的題目啊跟台南的陳亭輝高雄的年代化是一樣的我自己就是三區的鄉親啊包括最近中天民間特徵主義都來投訴講的問題就是他們世世代代住在山區 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5539.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5567.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
結果啊 已經墾戶 現在變成爛墾戶了政府強拆他們的房子 要他們還地還逼出了人命 逼死了這個人命剛才 喔 剛才你說要看政府來 我給你看他們站在外面的政府來 看上一張 上一張上一張這個青條啊 光是年間的這個資料阿公的阿公那時候他們就在這邊開墾了政府 清朝的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5568.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5591.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
發了證明給他們 你看這是民眾給的 那個下一張在上一張那個 剛才看的是清朝對不對 嘉慶軍由台灣嘉慶軍五年的時候 開墾的時候 更借的那個地址那個文件 他們都拿出來看啊再下來日據時代明治35年啊那主流都有在的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5594.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5619.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
你剛講去看行政圖當然當然也是一個我更要進一步的跟部長跟署長提醒伊井的政府怎麼處理這件事你看看阿扁亞在總統的時候他不只沒有拆沒有去拆房子耶沒有要你還地耶他是接見嚴肯戶在陳水扁當總統的時候馬英九當總統的時候都沒有這些事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5620.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5644.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
包括剛才在說的 到管政府在管這個事情的時候 也沒問題啊後來移交到了農業部 遺憾的事情就發生了剛委員會再提醒 財政部的國有財產署他的認定標準都比你還寬鬆所以齊凱 今天是我們的山區的一些鄉親他用血淚在控訴 都逼出人命了 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5645.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5657.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以齊凱今天很沉重的提了幾個很明確的呼應來 我們看我們的建議現在很嚴重的就是有些房子被拆了房子被拆 能不能先暫緩停拆 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5660.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5677.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
另外呢 要制度性去解決問題 都去補了跟內政部 你跟對岸政府要成立一個跨部會的小組趕快把它共同處理 我剛才說的人家歷史的文件都拿出來了把它做個整理 分類去管理另外做一個嚴懇部的一個調查的一個清澈另外給一個很強烈的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5678.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5705.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
歷史的事情要有時間來處理阿旁邊這台北啟定那尊違建的問題很嚴重啊所以那時候建立了一個制度民國83年以前的列管以後就緩拆了到現在都沒拆全國用的都是這個標準那個林署長我特別請你上來你算是我看過的文官裡面比較有溫度的比較文化的在處理這個事情的時候不要只有看到林保 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5707.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5735.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
人命是人命關天特別是一個文明的社會就是對弱勢者對年長者的照顧要越好這些人真的是非常弱勢我以前都沒讀書啊我們爸爸阿公的師弟他們都沒讀書連水電都沒有啊所以要用更柔軟的心去幫他們好不好這個我就做了四點建議好不好部長我們就先這個要給你們時間我知道因為今天要審這個森林法而且這個事情人命關天最明確的我是要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5736.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5761.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
先不要拆 要去整體去處理另外我提一個點也很重要你現在行照圖去看你會發現有些地方可能跟原來不一樣所以你就去拆它可是你們出了一個很大問題他說有徵件那你全部怎麼 因為房子全部都拆掉你要拆頂多拆那個徵件的部分而且你如果徵件的是那房子那麼古老 古早期的那一處他有時候是為了安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5763.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5789.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好不好 從寬去認定 好不好這個事情我都做了建議 請去幫他們好不好 保證給我處理好 接下來要問一個很重要的事情一樣是土地生意的就是工地放領那總統啊 這幾天說到說工地啊 要開始要放領這個事情可能要進一步去推動了我先注意到了一個點 非常奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5790.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5815.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我先問你 我們的榮保是什麼時候開始事辦什麼時候開始正式的實施78年你看右邊 那你總統怎麼這樣說總統說他做行進一年時間推動改革啊只要是切實從事榮作不管是擁有農地或者是租的就可以參加榮保 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5819.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5836.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
對 我們那時候 現在就是說過去農保一定要有農地那現在只要是實際耕作者他如果被證明是有實際耕作者有租地的話 也可以參加農保對嘛 這72年七月一號正式實施嘛 對不對我們的中度當時當時平均一定107啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5840.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5861.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
民國78年7月1號就開始實施了嘛是不是那是農保那是農保對嘛我們總統快點說他在行政年限去推動這個農保那個是實際耕作的以前的農保是要有耕地要有土地那在107年的時候我們就開放了口頭約民國78年的7月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5865.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5891.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
農保在74年的10月24號事辦嘛對不對78年7月要正式實施開辦的時候是什麼就包括租地的人就可以辦農保委員你這邊可能資訊有誤喔我剛才說的78年開辦農保是一定要有土地然後107年的時候我們是說只要是口頭約只要租地是實耕者就可以加入農保那是後來放寬的部分是在107年這是我在問過 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5895.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5899.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
農保應該問農業部會比較清楚問農業部應該會比較清楚我剛才說的嘛主管計劃是我們開放了口頭約只要你有實際耕作者也可以參加農保是107年 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5914.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5922.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我另外問問你這個問題啊等等就牽扯到農民的福利第二個就是最近總統是不是常講錯話沒有啊 這個沒有啊所以昨天大家在討論這個沒有講錯話因為107年講到2527年跟兩年後 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5929.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5959.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
北京政府當局就要完成武統台灣引起天然大波他自己昨天在總統府的這個新聞稿裡面還在進一步去改我說這個是不是也是一個口誤呢我們的農民包括如果是用租的在民國78年7月1號107年好沒關係我去問老保那邊主管機關是農業部農業部我們我們承辦的時候107年所以你的意思是總統當行政院長時候推動的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5960.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5985.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
口頭約是總統當時推動的啊沒有錯啊可是也不是他任內受的啊第一個78年這個把它查清楚了第一個是不是他講錯話把它進一步查清楚我就很負責任的講說是107年我們沒有講錯話所以我說你的資訊是有誤的啊是不是78年就開始有這個我們要進一步來追了好不好78年是農保開辦107年是開放口頭約就是實耕者可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5986.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6009.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
然後豬的像工地放領現在再出了這個豬的部分就是107年啊這個我們進一步去追啦因為我從勞保局那邊我們的同仁去追的是這個因為主管單位是農業部接下來我要問一個很重要的工地放領很多民眾應該是贊成的可是不要又變成幫設置光電開了一個後門所以我具體做幾個呼籲做幾個建議來我們看我們的這個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6016.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6033.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
工地放零是土地的正義可是不要變成是光電開貨門他一定要有一個嚴格的限制就是你工地放零到後來應該落實他是農地農業所以請農業部要很注意這個事情因為總統講完之後內政部已經開始在作業了嘛所以部長這段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6036.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6049.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
包括漁電共生我跟委員報告工地放領跟漁電共生是兩件事情我們絕對不會說為了光電而去搞這個工地放領 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6051.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6077.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
因為工地放領事本來就有的政策然後透過這些政策可以讓有一些已經成豬的部分能夠有機會擁有自己的土地這個是我想是您說的這土地正義嘛但是不要把它直接連結到光電因為光電是兩件事情這段時間非常多的媒體啊跟這個社團已經出來呼籲了不要變成開貨門既然你也保證說不會開貨門就是要請你明確的去規範好不好這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6079.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6108.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這沒有什麼好規範的啊工地放領之後又沒開了貨門民眾馬上就會看得到因為漁電共生有漁電共生本身的政策跟他的實施的申請的要件跟審查的機制嘛這兩件事情是不一樣的啊不是只有漁電共生啦就是你的工地放領以後這個農地以後是不是一定是農地農用我們贊成農地農用嘛可是不要弄成上面又去潑了光電板你要做防範嘛不是不是那你說不會部長你說不會我們就等著看 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6108.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6125.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我說這是兩件事情喔我說這是兩件事情因為工地放年以後它變成私有財產的時候它如果符合光電的設置要點它這樣可以申請啊這是兩件事情喔跟現在目前所有的光電政策它不能把它攪在一起啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6125.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6150.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那麼多的寫者專家已經是在提醒你就是說現在你工地換零是為了農地農用嘛對不對對啊那你就一定要弱死農地農用如果弄到後來很多去開了貨門一定是農地農用我們絕對不會因為 人民就會譴責你是我今天很明確的要求保定注意不要工地換零以後變成是弄到後來弄了很多光電板人民會注目而且真的這樣做的話會被譴責來最後問一個最簡單的因為謝玉鳳在趕時間啦那個廚藝的那個問題齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6156.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6160.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
除以養豬到底要會不會禁止 你在25號說本週要確定對不對 26號又說下個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6164.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6191.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
到底要不要禁止我想這個禮拜的部分我們大原則大概已經確定大概因為防疫的關係我們大概會先禁用家戶廚餘但是廚藝養豬必須要有一個過渡所以我們也大方向我們會有一個落日但是這個落日要怎麼去讓這個豬農有時間去做一個轉型那這個部分因為牽扯到很多食物的執行細節所以家用的會禁止就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6193.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6209.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
對因為家用的廚藝是風險最高的那是風險最高的餐廳的事業廚藝可能一段時間會引起 可是會有訂個購置就對了對我們會有一個如果大方向是這樣子的那我們還會跟地方政府做一個有效的溝通OK好這是很重要的決定OK好謝謝謝謝謝謝張慶愷委員質詢謝謝部長謝謝我們現在請謝一鳳委員質詢謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6227.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6230.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好謝謝主席我想要請陳部長我們請陳部長喂好陳部長我想要請問因為現在已經到了就是農收的時期了那我知道說你們今年度有開放就是增加農業移工8000人那你們現在農業部的資格和定寒平均發放的時程是幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6258.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6278.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我跟委員報告我們現在的移工從去年的一萬兩千人到現在變成兩萬人左右那整個移工的申請一部分是我們去確認他的資格最重要的是勞動部那邊要審核那過往勞動部那邊的審核的時間會比較長一點我們已經有寫他已經加速了那只要他那邊核定的話我們這邊就會來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6279.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6296.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
所以我們大概一個月一個月是不是那這個東西你們已經協調好了嗎因為畢竟你知道採收是有一個期效性那你如果在申請的時期有延誤的話那對農民來講你增加人數根本沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6296.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6320.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
你要減少那個這個認定函的這個時間嘛就是說這個流程的時間那你們現在目前已經跟農業部有什麼樣的窗口謝謝委員的提醒我們跟勞動部已經有一個聯繫窗口而且針對這個如何加速這個從申請到核發的這個時間點那這個部分我想他們已經快很多了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6321.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6349.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好 那而且你們也降低申請的門檻嘛 對不對就是實用孤訓的門檻已經降低到0.1公頃以上我們是放寬啦 不要說降低 放寬啦對啦 放寬啦因為畢竟現在你知道現在缺工的問題很重嘛那因為我們雖然即便說你也是很致力在推廣就是智慧農業但是智慧農業的導入目前還沒有辦法很快速嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6349.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6362.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
對不對因為這也有賴於農民共同的一些合作跟推動那也希望說這個部分我們繼續推動那智慧農業的推動的確就可以減少我們人力的需求的這個問題但是在這個過程當中這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6368.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6389.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個調整的過程當中我們還是需要有一些因應的措施這個短期之間我們這樣子一個農業移工的開放我想要確定就是說因為很多中小型的農戶也面臨到缺工的問題所以我才問你說你是不是有放寬0.1公頃以下的使用估訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6389.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6411.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
以及水到綠苗放寬到兩公頃我想詳細的那個幾公頃但是我那時候已經有處理就是說那個因為小農戶的部分他基本上包括養菇的部分我們都有往下降放寬他的一個門檻那那個門檻的詳細資料我再提供0.1分地吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6412.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6437.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
估計是0.1分地對那蔬菜果樹呢你要不要就是說有一些其他的項目你是不是也可以你們不知道也可以我可不可以事後再提供給您對因為是不是說對於其他品項的是不是也能夠放寬因為我們知道說現在不管是用盡什麼樣子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6438.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6462.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
的方法即便我們一直致力在推廣智慧農業上面那但是在人力的需求上面目前農村的人力需求人口的凋零然後老化的程度那我們的確需要一些這些移工的需求那你是不是能夠就是說開放多一點項目來確保這些小型的那個家庭農場 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6463.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6488.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
謝謝委員的提醒那這個部分我想我們第一個就是我們年度都會滾動的檢討那剛才針對您所提到的一些部分我想我們也會專案的方式特別是剛才您提到的水稻的育苗的部分本來是要3公頃現在已經降到2公頃了那菇類的部分本來是0.5公頃那現在已經有降下來到0.1公頃那這個部分我想我們會一定會因為農民的需要而做一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6488.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6511.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
好那其他項目再麻煩你就是說一併的考量那再來就是是不是你們你跟農業部有沒有辦法協調出一個就是說一條龍的申請跟審查的機制就是不要讓農民看在哪一個單位申請或者是怎麼樣就是不要讓農民必須要兩頭跑這有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6513.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6541.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我跟委員報告我們是針對資格的部分然後勞動部那邊是針對一些他本身申請過來的移工的相關的這些人力跟他的條件的部分那現在我們已經有專門的聯繫窗口那您說的要一條龍單一的服務窗口我想農業部本身願意去協助我們的農民然後去追這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6542.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6554.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好好用用用用去協調的案子來處理好再麻煩部長好不好是謝謝好謝謝謝謝依豐委員質詢我們現在請鄭天才委員質詢謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6573.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6600.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
主席有請部長我們請部長部長好這個研究法第19條特別規定這個在研究民族第7研究民族第7採集野生植物及菌類是可以以傳統文化自用來去申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6602.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6629.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那我们的演习法第二条也特别定义了原住民族第七那森林法第十五条这个现行的条文是规定森林位于原住民族传统领域所以跟演习法是原住民族第七森林法十五条是写原住民族传统领域所以这个必须要修正在还没有修正之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6630.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6645.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
本席透过延期法34条你们也做了解释就是原住民族传统礼仪就是用原住民族地区就做了解释所以现在执行上都是用原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6646.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6665.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
第七所以这个法必须要配合修正这个野保法都配合修正了都改为原住民主第七了所以这个部分所以这个今天能够安排审查非常谢谢赵伟所以这个我们的依法行政来把它修正那现在是这样 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6667.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6694.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
还没有修正这个森林法之前那因为已经依延基法34条的规定来做了解释所以国有零产物处分规则第14条虽然森林法还没有修正可以先修正因为这里面的第14条的第7款第8款它的部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6697.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6721.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
依前向第七款第八款第十一款才是以原住民保留地内更收小更收小传统力很大保留地更小所以尤其是尤其是我们平地原住民我们居住的地方不是不是原住民保留地 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6722.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6747.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
三地相二基本上是我們平地相不是所以這個部分都要配合延期法34條既然已經做了做了森林法的解釋所以這個部分也要配合現在就可以修正甚至在試用上現在就可以解釋試用所以這個部分農業部可以去處理嗎這應該可以好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6751.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6778.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好接下來這個我也有提這個修正動議這個漂流木的部分我們到時候在逐條討論的時候逐條討論的時候我們再一起再處理好我們現在這個就請部長因為這個跟那個水保署水保署有關係了這個我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6781.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6810.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
今年的7月22號有到義理召開協調會也去了會刊就針對這兩個就請這個農業部水保署這邊積極的來處理好不好我們會去現刊以後看看怎麼處理我們再來這個部分之前都有去勘查過了好接下來還是要談到這個馬太安溪菸澀府我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6812.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6839.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
因為9月23號的這個潰壩一流造成這個光復鄉鳳林鎮以及這個萬隆鄉造成這樣的一個重大的災情而這個下游的就是經濟部所管轄的部分他們積極的在做相關的提防 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6840.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6869.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
河床的疏浚堤防要加固加高都在做但是他們還是擔心上面所以他們現在除了現有的堤防之外加固加高之外他們現在規劃第一個規劃要擴大這個河川七一線第二個要再做第二道的堤防就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6870.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6892.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
就会使用到农民的土地乡亲就觉得说我已经受害了我现在土地又要被你征收会这样的一个情形所以源头还重要源头很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6893.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6916.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
在这样的一个情形之下马太厌西厌社府现在的现况跟9月23号的时候已经差很多了在这样的情形之下既然是差那么多已经小很多了但是这个崩塌地然后那个水每天要让它流而不是积水在那边 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6918.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6943.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
有时候真的是没有流水了什么要让这个水流光要把它流光这个就是要挖就是要挖按照你们的规划要从光复灵道上去我一直在说了这个对山林的会有很大的影响了所以而且要花14亿花14亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6948.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6966.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這樣的一個情形是不是值得一定只有這個方法嗎所以我在之前諮詢的時候還有提出的這個立法院特別預算審查的主決議就是希望你們趕快找專業的團隊國內外的專業團隊能夠去解決這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6976.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7003.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
譬如說工群總隊曾經在2022年他們就用直升機吊掛這個挖土機上到另外一個地方類似像這樣的這樣的一個情形有沒有可能在這樣的一個地區裡面能夠去處理這個部分一定要積極的來處理去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7007.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7012.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
用最快的方式是最好不然现在相信了他不敢重建了 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7013.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7039.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
萬一又潰壩又溢流是這樣部長是不是這個要積極的做我跟委員說明一下就是要怎麼樣到上游去做整治的部分除了林道以外也有一個方案是從溯溪上去的部分現在最重要的問題是邊波本身的不穩定度那之前沒有辦法用機具用吊掛的方式是因為土質鬆軟的部分那個種機具一下人下去就會陷下去了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7040.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7060.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
然後所以我們等汛期過後我們就會評估更多的方案最怕的是地震或是大豪雨把旁邊的邊坡又又崩下來的時候如果在那個時候施工的話就會影響到施工人員安全所以這個都是我們在考量的一個最安全的方案我想我們一定會努力去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7062.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7073.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個部分一定要積極地做才能根本地去解決整個災害地區好不好好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝鄭天才委員資訊謝謝部長 謝謝我們現在請鄭正前委員資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7088.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7091.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
謝主席我想請一下農業部陳俊基部長請陳部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7100.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7124.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
部長好今年3月本席曾經問過農業部因為從110年3月就開始將生態系服務價值納入租金裡面的一部分可是因為沒有法律的依據所以當時農業部承諾6月底之前要完成法制化的一個動作請問一下部長現在進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7126.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7150.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們現在正在做法治的程序因為就像委員所說的就是生態服務本身就是一個有償的價值所以我們把生態服務會分成不同的樣態的部分包括這些給付的這些動作那這個動作一定要有法源是啊 當時說到6月底要完成現在已經到11月了11月底了已經延了5個月好像還沒出農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7152.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7181.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
部長可不可以解釋一下為什麼我跟委員說明其實當初在做這個法制化的時候有牽涉到那個國土法有沒有4月實施因為配合國土法本身的不同的樣態的話我們的生態給物就可以去搭配變成堆疊式的那後來因為國土法實施的延後的部分那因為延後了以後後續的各地方政府在在劃設這個不同區位的時候你所套上去的生態的給物是可能會不一樣的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7181.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7207.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
部長我理解不過因為既然說多了一個生態系服務價值要把它變成租金的一部分行政部門它只要是收稅收費基本上都要有一個非常明確的法律依據部長這是基本部長也同意嘛那現在從110年3月開始的時候你們已經開始收生態系服務價值變成租金的一部分顯然已經沒有按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7208.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7222.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
法規在執行這樣的一個收費的標準所以本席並沒有反對我們要做的事情只是希望說能夠盡快的把它完成法制化否則你多了一個生態系服務價值的時候比原本的租金多了兩三倍耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7223.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7251.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那現在這四年多繳了這樣子的錢的那個成豬人的時候那他們在情何以堪你與法無據去收了這樣的一個費用那部長也覺得應該要把他給法治化那本席也支持希望盡快把這樣子的一個瑕疵補起來好不好了解我覺得真的您講的這個部分是針對礦業本身我們收的這個租金嘛然後這個部分我想我們跟礦務局這邊已經在一起我想我們會盡快啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7252.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7281.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
儘快 大概什麼時間 給我一個時間好不好我們11月底會先找礦業者去做溝通跟說明接下來就 多久多久今年年底 就今年12月底之前嘛好不好好那這個部分我們希望政府所有要收的費用都能夠依法有據 我覺得這是很重要的一個原則不要讓公務人員於法無據去 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7282.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7302.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
進行一個不當的收費的狀態那麼我接下來想請教一下因為行政院曾經核定新興族產業發展計畫新興族產業發展計畫這個部分其實也已經進行了很多年農業部這邊有建立一個台灣零產品生產追溯系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7303.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7318.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那我想請問一下部長到目前為止就是主產業的部分一直沒有辦法納入我們零產品生產追溯系統當中為什麼可以請部長回應一下我可不可以請林保署署長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7320.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7333.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
跟委員報告我們已經修訂了這個零產品生產追溯管理作業規範那在接下來明年1月1號就可以來實施了就會納入明年1月1號開始實施那因為在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7337.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7355.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
在這個新興族產業發展計畫綱要裡面就是有特別提到說112年度林業試驗所他要成立一個族財資源及料源的一個資訊平台而且弄了1400萬到目前為止執行了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7360.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7388.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
署長部長知不知道應該是有執行有執行嗎這個容我會後再了解這個112年部分我再提供給委員好因為這個很具體然後我們看到目前為止這個資訊平台那個署長說有其實我是沒有看到所以部長這邊會後再給本席辦公室一個很清楚的狀態因為這個部分我們很清楚的需要知道的是既然這個112年計畫到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7391.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7415.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那如果沒有完成它原因在哪裡那我們如何在這個平台還沒有建立之前的時候然後我們能夠對於整個台灣那個竹產業有更好的一個保障對消費者也有保障因為大家對竹筷子的安全性都會有很多很多的質疑目前網路上也很多會提到竹筷子的問題那我們希望這個部分能夠有效的來解決好不好 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7416.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7441.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
可以好那接下來我想問一下就是毒蛋的問題因為蛋這個問題其實從六年前的時候我就開始提到了那芬普尼這件事情的時候那陸續就會一直有不定期就會爆發出來說可能會有含芬普尼這個蛋那我們對於這個部分的時候可不可以請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7443.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7468.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
很清楚的跟我們說明一下為什麼芬普尼已經禁用了也禁用了六年了可是它還是不定期的就會爆發出來有幾萬顆蛋含芬普尼有幾萬顆蛋含芬普尼而且其實坦白說政府都沒有辦法有效的把它追蹤回來因為蛋一下就被吃掉了這對國人的健康來說是一個很大的危害可不可以請部長做一個簡單的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7469.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7498.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我想第一個跟委員說明就是蜂母泥是一個環境用藥它是一個殺蟲劑所以當你的禽社如果說你的環境比較差的時候或者是你的整個敘舍比較不好的時候你就有機會用到它去做這些環境的清理所以我們從農業部從過去幾年來我們一直提供這個敘舍的改建禽社的改建但是禽社的改建的部分因為現在地方政府要重新同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7499.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7517.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
然後大家都擔心林壁設施都這個改建的速度非常慢就是說即使他希望改建可是人家會認為他可能會擴建所以造成很多的困擾部長沒問題因為分譜你是環境用藥其實本席知道那植樹它不能用在畜牧上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7517.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7546.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那也推了6年了可是目前還是不定期就會碰到毒彈的一個問題那本席認為環境部這邊有沒有去追蹤因為環境部有提出了幾種的一個合法合規的用藥對不對只是說因為這用藥的成本顯然是比分普尼高了非常的多而且可能是10倍20倍劑那以這種狀態來說我們農業部有沒有更具體的一個做法能夠改善這樣的一個情況讓毒彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7547.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7564.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
不會一而再再而三的出現我覺得第一個就農業部來講就是續型場域的環境的改善這個我想我們會加強那第二個部分其實就是後市場跟我們生產端本身的聯合集合這個也是非常重要的因為我們所有的雞蛋都有溯源碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7565.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7588.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那溯源碼不是等到吃到肚子才去溯源是 部長你講得很好因為有集合的狀態的時候基本上來講我們只要按照他們比方說有多少的一個機織要用多少的一個相關的一個合法的一個藥我們就可以算出來如果說有養雞場他們用的合法用藥量不夠的時候我們是很容易把它稽查出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7589.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7611.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
希望這個部分我們能夠更有效的一個稽查然後對於現在的一個法則會不會太輕或者是對於比方說我們合法用藥的部分的時候比用分普尼可能高達10倍20倍的狀態我們會不會有另外的一個補助希望能夠提高違法的一個成本然後提高合法的一個補助然後用更完整的一個稽查來解決這個問題部長可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7613.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7632.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我想可以就是第一個擴大我們的聯合稽查所抽取的樣本數然後根據它的風險有的情社可能風險比較高那我們的稽查強度就會比較強用這種方式去遏阻然後情社的改建也會持續的來努力來協助OK 好 謝謝部長謝謝曾振淺委員的質詢謝謝部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7634.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7646.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們現在請張家俊委員質詢我們在盧憲毅委員質詢完我們就休息五分鐘 謝謝好 謝謝主席我想請陳部長請陳部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7655.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7672.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
部長早安非洲豬瘟到現在已經超過一個月了但是我們看到昨天韓國也爆發了今年第六起的非洲豬瘟的疫情他們將全國禁應48小時我必須告訴部長這真的非常嚴重我們從 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7677.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7702.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
10月22號起這個活豬禁運禁載然後同時禁止廚餘餵豬那這個疫調結果也顯示為落實這個廚餘真主就養豬用廚餘養豬這件事情是疫情爆發的主要原因這個您同意嗎對不對對我們疫調結果是這樣子對那我想要請問一下禁止廚餘養豬這個措施目前有要調整嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7703.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7724.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我想第一個部分就是大方向我先講大方向因為我們大概後面還有很多細節要處理第一個部分就是我們在禁止以後如果要重新開放我已經說過要符合落實證書及時監控跟法令以外地方政府要同意然後大方向的料源的部分我們會先針對家戶處理做禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7725.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7734.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那為什麼剛剛媒體都在報導說農業部打算在12月初開始有新的廚餘政策要開放事業廚餘呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7736.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7754.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我說的是禁用家戶廚餘然後因為廚餘養豬必須要有一個過渡期所以你現在是在告訴我說事業廚餘裡面應該是不會有非洲豬瘟我覺得所有的防疫都是用風險的角度然後家戶廚餘的風險是最高的你現在是在幫 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7756.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7767.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
事業廚餘背書說他不可能是破口嗎我跟委員說明你不要用這種方式去影射我想要你正面說明啊我強調就是說我禁用家戶廚餘然後第二個部分就是你禁用家戶廚餘但是我還沒有講完我還沒有講完我還沒有講完可不可以讓我講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7776.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7796.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
你講第一個部分在過渡期的話我們會禁用加護廚因為廚藝養豬轉型需要一點時間然後最後我們會有個落日期就是全面禁用加護廚那預計什麼時候全面禁用因為預計禁用的部分可能跟後面的這些廚藝的再利用的部分我們在跟環境部正在討 正在處理部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7797.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7808.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我必須要提醒您您是農業部的部長保障保護這些豬農才是你的第一要務為什麼你要把環境部的責任全部攬在你身上呢環境部怎麼樣處理廚餘是他的問題怎麼會你要幫他處理呢如果照委員這樣講農業部的立場之前就非常清楚了是原則禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7820.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7846.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
然後你有落實徵主的條件的時候由地方政府發許可所以所有的開放廚餘是由地方政府去核發的你的意思是說那現在你說這些事業廚餘那要怎麼辦呢你現在是說你要開放事業廚餘是嗎我是說禁用家戶廚餘那你要開放事業廚餘嗎在過渡期的話它是可以使用要落實徵主 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7847.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7856.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以你就是要開放廚餘養豬的意思嗎我先問你一個問題過渡期是多久沒有過渡期是多久可以有一個大方向嗎我們大方向已經有了現在就是說在處理這個時間點這個在時間點我們必須再跟環境部然後我們還會再跟縣市政府的首長去做溝通我先舉一個例子好不好 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7874.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7886.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
假設我想要請問一下事業廚餘是有包括餐廳嗎餐廳跟那個團散的部分都是屬於事業廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7887.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7900.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以餐廳好了 假設我這個餐廳的廚餘桶好 廚餘桶放在外面然後我隔壁鄰居把他的家戶廚餘拿來倒你有辦法分辨嗎你沒有辦法分辨嘛這個源頭分類就沒有辦法100%監控嘛我現在就告訴你說 假設我們還會有落實真主的即時監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7911.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7916.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那你現在是在因為你知道嗎因為這8%的廚餘養豬不全面禁止的話就是其他的92%的飼料養豬戶都要一起承擔這非洲豬瘟的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7926.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7932.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
是2000億產值的整個產業鏈耶你現在是要讓我們做半套的意思嗎就你說交互廚餘禁止然後你要開放事業廚餘你怎麼有辦法保證我說過了我們在過渡期是這樣處理過渡期是多久嘛過渡期的過渡的時間還要看後面的交互是多久嘛你至少給我們三年嗎 十年嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7953.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7972.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們明確了以後就會對外說明那是什麼時候會明確嘛因為你今天都已經接受記者訪問了我告訴你今天我們本身我就講個大方向一個就是家務廚餘會禁用第二個我們會有弱智條款就是這樣子弱智條款所以那我想要請問說是不是假設這個事業廚餘真的去養豬了然後再發生非洲豬瘟誰要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7978.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7993.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我們所有的你沒有要負責嘛對不對我告訴你你也沒有要負責啊你也覺得跟你沒有關係啊反正農民的死活是他們家的事啊所有的廚餘再利用是由地方政府核發的我們會跟桃園市政府溝通我們會跟新北市政府溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7995.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7997.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
對他們本身所以你的意思是說你要開放然後他們也開放如果假設開放如果有破口有這個非洲豬瘟在產生你現在在告訴我說跟你農業部沒有關係是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8010.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8015.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我從來沒有講這句話那否則誰要負責假設再爆發我問你假設再爆發你要不要下台負責你今天如果同意說再爆發你願意下台負責那我也沒有話說我也沒有話說如果你是願意負責的我沒有話說但是你願意負責嗎我們不會讓它發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8035.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8059.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
你現在是該告我掛保證嗎我沒有 我不會讓它發生你不會讓它發生所有的防疫是中央跟地方的責任你說這些失業廚餘不會變成破口假設變成破口再發生誰要負責你現在告訴我我告訴你 防疫是中央跟地方一起的責任對啊 那跟你沒有關係嗎當然有關係啊是不是你政策 你要先做出政策啊我政策講得非常清楚啦你的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8059.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8067.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這就是要開放事業廚餘嘛我現在要求你說你如果可以保證說這不會是破口的話如果是破口如果假設廚藝養豬又發生非洲豬瘟爆發你要負責嗎你願意負責嗎沒有我知道是負責我問你嘛你願意負責嗎你可以下台嗎你下台也救不了這些豬農 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8087.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8096.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
你知道你做的這個決定 影響多少人嗎我跟委員說明喔 防疫是中央政府一起努力的是 可是你願意 你願意允許 允許事業廚餘這是在防疫嗎 這是在防疫嗎我跟你講 非洲豬瘟的你現在告訴我說 事業廚餘不會是破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8109.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8116.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
你聽一聽你自己相信嗎我說風險我現在就告訴你說你自己相信嗎他說風險的高低他是零風險嗎風險有高有低沒有零的那他是高還是低我告訴你我就聽你說家務廚餘是低的家務廚餘是高的事業廚餘是低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8126.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8131.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
但他也是有風險啊我現在就問你說假設這個是破口假設他變成破口你要不要負責如果委員今天到中國去或是其他地方到養殖場再進來的話也有可能傳播你在講什麼東西我在跟你講什麼東西你在跟我講什麼東西你頭腦清楚好好想一想說這個非洲豬瘟會影響多少人的生計會有多少人的死活因為你開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8154.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8177.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
事業廚餘被影響 我現在就告訴你你要記得 這是你的責任如果有人因為非洲豬瘟爆發 家破人亡就是你的責任中央跟地方政府的防疫是要一起的是要一起啊 那你要允許他是不可以的謝謝 謝謝我們現在請陳昌明委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8186.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8210.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
主席好 那現在有請我們陳部長我們請陳部長部長好部長好 我剛才聽您的質詢我聽了一句話 我覺得很莫名其妙說我們如果到中國大陸去看了也是非洲豬人帶進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8212.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8231.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
顏色太重了 到日本有沒有到美國有沒有 到越南有沒有我跟委員報告喔 不要這樣舉例不是 你要聽我講一分鐘就好非洲豬瘟的傳播除了廚藝以外還有人員的接觸你如果到養豬場 進去養豬場也有可能帶來 我是指這個沒有啊 我跟你講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8233.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8261.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
從其他非洲豬瘟從其他非洲其他國家非洲豬瘟爆發也有非常多的人員的接觸中國大陸就會把非洲豬瘟帶進來我不知道你這個舉例怎麼樣因為你是學者之身的我們的理論要很中道也要有那個對 我就是跟您講說非洲豬瘟的傳遞除了廚藝還有很多很多的方式你頭腦的意識永遠在這個對立之中啊認知的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8263.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8290.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們做事情 尤其是這個基地跟我們的宿舍大家都很注意好不好 報紙借訊 借訊其他國家有非常多的就是因為人員的傳遞才造成非洲豬瘟的爆發保留 你要跟我去燕尼醫院嗎來 圖片出來好 你大概聽你說你大概沒有看過萬里長城也沒有做過但是我們萬里長沙 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8293.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8299.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我希望你有機會 以前跟我去會館過 110年3月辦理會館現在東北季風就大量帶來風沙 連漁港的道路跟漁港都進出困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8314.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8338.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
再來這裡比較重要的風波的事件都吹入民宅很嚴重的我這個問題要把你拿過去那邊有來處理但是處理的效果不怎麼好當初我處理的方式是1月時協助清醫0月時同意重新檢定這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8341.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8344.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
砂作業的標準就是加深 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8346.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8374.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
降瓦一個深度 為2公尺壓到3公尺下去但是壓到這幾個實驗那個風沙MO我們的港口情形沒有得到實質的改善我現在看這張照片現在的沙冰就這樣了應該防信步道都不能走路了整個都掩埋起來了所以對於總體的背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8376.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8390.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
總的移民就十分困擾但是裡面是有時候依照自己的方法來做所以在這裡面我們當地的移民 給我建議說看你們在苑港 移港北邊的養殖區 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8393.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8421.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
靠外面的淺灘先定沙南邊的堤防的飄沙就會減少再來栽植木馬房跟黃瓊室我常常想這個問題你剛才說的中國大陸我自己想那中國大陸在沙漠立法已經做得非常成功人家大片的土地那個沙漠的地區已經立法很成功我們台灣要抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8423.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8428.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
鄉中寶台 海邊的沙灘雨沙幾十年都沒辦法人家處理你也想一個撇步出來想一個我們的港府 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8433.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8458.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
報告委員 你說旺嶺長沙怎麼跑到抗中保台去了那我想基本上我們會重視這個問題特別是您剛才講的漁港的北側本身你如果去做這些藍沙的話它是有限的但是林保署每一年他會持續做定沙這個動作那現在有一些地背現在開始逐漸的穩定那穩定了以後我們就會後面就會比較減少這個部分它不需要一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8459.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8471.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我不知道有沒有穩定啦但是沒有全部穩定刷又硬起來 沒有一定穩定以前有穩定都被刷的都被刷的 都被硬埋過了有跟委員有嘛 要去看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8473.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8490.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我們現場來看嗎我們現場來會刊我們的林市長你應徵又有能力這條看你的改革貼一條卸條來去你的港府人家中國大陸的沙漠立法都那麼成功了還不管從何時怎樣引進各種方式都要改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8491.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8514.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
不要自以為很滿足啊我們都要去學習人家長度看他怎麼做但是這台機器裡面有特別建議在縣理事的那一代去設沙場帶透過縣理事的潮汐把沙這樣打出來你知道他們的經驗很深科技考慮真的這一次要解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8515.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8515.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
誰敢講這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8531.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8532.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
每一個都跟我反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8547.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8568.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
他認為我有解決這個問題的能力 但是反映到現在就沒有改觀所有臉上無光 整個部長 市長臉上無光沒有 這個部分要一步一步啦 我想我們後續會來...好 我來解釋一下時間那今天談到森林法 林市長講過幾十年了 我從來沒有改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8569.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8594.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們森林法規定不管不論都市計畫中還是非都市計畫中的山坡地開發都須繳納回饋金都市計畫內我現在跟你討論都市計畫內所以我這次要提出48條之一的修法希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8595.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8618.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
都市計畫中的山坡地不用繳納山坡地利用的開花回饋金這我講了幾年因為我那特別嚴重苗栗縣的山坡地佔了85%的責任臨時我們也爭論了好幾次我說啊造林並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8619.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8636.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
都市計畫內山坡地持有者的責任照理不是全民照理嗎阿你怎麼叫我們山坡地山坡地的都市計畫開發裡面就又受到了很多的限制尤其我們廟裡管池熱 池燃 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8638.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8654.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
厚隆通宵宴旅海边的地方大概比较平其他的都山坡地85%我们交情交到5万名来来来你那个回馈金一年收了多少钱你们的小金库你从来不放 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8654.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8658.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我們有很多東西就會回到獎勵造齡的這些幾戶又回到給造齡者啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8675.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8699.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
回到哲教你們的大家的責任安裝我都市計畫的山坡地我要特別回饋我跟委員報告回饋金如果政府是議題的話我不是跟你討回饋金啦我感覺這樣對於都市計畫內的山坡地的開發者尤其對我們苗栗非常不公平啦師兄你講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8702.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8723.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你給我這樣討論幾年這樣現在給我後悔後悔說都會改過因為這個山坡地它是山坡地回饋金它是減少破地抑制破地災害的發生所以用造林發生所以破地沒有分是都市計畫或者是非都市計畫基本上它是山坡地這個是當時地這個定這個的意志你不能用這樣來講嘛造林是大家的責任嘛為什麼只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8731.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8757.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
都市計畫內山坡地的人要特別去繳這筆錢沒有 委員你應該記得前幾天農委會也曾經幫忙過縮減了苗栗縣的那個山坡地的範圍沒有 沒有 其他很多山坡地你告訴我你知不知道你怎麼不知道那個就是客觀沒有辦法那個沒有 我很羞嘛不然你拿你的方案出來你拿你跟我收掉他這個就是依據山坡地的範圍內跟我苗栗縣都市計畫內的山坡地收了多少你跟我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8759.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8777.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我每次都相信你 你會改進啦但是你這樣都迷迷糊糊這樣給我扶著就過了現在我真的要認真的檢討我們會很清楚的跟您報告過去這幾年這個之前我們都有跟您報告過你有報告過 對但是就不怕嘛 大家這樣我剛才就跟你們說他不是依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8777.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8804.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
非都或都市計畫的山坡地它山坡地是一體它是為了要防災啊你別這樣啦照領全民的責任嘛這個是當時例子的法律不然你平地也要拉山坡地走嘛平地也要拉照領市山坡地的人的責任嘛這個是意志破地災你別這樣說我不承認這個照領市全民的責任我們在最後再跟委員溝通啦好不好我跟妳說不然溝通這次我提出來我願意跟妳修改合理一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8807.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8822.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
你不肯這樣忽略一年 再過一年我一直覺得你們很實在結果我發覺都很不實在感覺我跟老師 你就要跟我那樣這樣忽略就過了不會啦 不會啦 我們不會這樣想啦我想我朋友都差不多這樣啦好嗎 這點要好好做 謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員的質詢謝謝 謝謝部長我們現在請盧憲毅委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8839.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8851.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
这期我们让部长休息一下我们请林保署署长跟袁明慧委员好 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8852.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8877.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好 署長好在進入主題之前我們還是回顧一下我們原住民傳統領域從清朝到現在的一個落差當然我不是說試圖要把它弄回來這樣可是要讓國人知道以前在清朝的時候是這樣子綠色的範圍有這麼大在日治時期就是1901年的調查的時候我們的傳統領域範圍大概還是有台灣的五成就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8878.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8896.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
然後到了民國政府來了以後反而變得更少而且是最少只有大概7.1%也就是大概26.4萬公頃我們剛剛看到我們的COP30剛剛結束在巴西他們對我們熱帶森林永續基金有一個20% |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8899.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8922.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
的一个提拨给当地的原住民只要对森林永续的有贡献他大概就有一定的规模是这样可是反观我们国内目前我们的温室气体基金连一个委员连一个原住民都没有更何况是这个所谓的比例在我们未来的规划没有看到对原住民的一些贡献那我们增订这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8923.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8948.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
条文大概就是在九条之一的时候我大概有看到你们的回复就是说建议不纳入可是你们的思考的逻辑可能是说会妨碍到私有领这个部分不过我们就看到我们今年在最高行政法院的判决在6月25号的时候他说传统领域应该含有私有地这样的一个逻辑的时候所以我们就常常在看到我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8948.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8971.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
在信义乡或者是万荣乡仁爱乡或者是其他有地热或者是矿产的这些国有林我们在看到当地的跟就是跟当地的原住民没有事先的沟通所以我是希望这个契机可以掌握住希望原民会能够定定一个制度就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8971.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8999.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
因为以后会一而再再而生发生这样子一个在我们传统领域里面不论是公有地或者私有地的一个争议就是希望能够有一个智商同意就是希望有一个如何行使它这样的一个权利所以应该这个问题发生的时候应该原民会跟农业部或者林保署这边要去如何去制定同意权如何行使这样的让它一个制度化 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9000.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9029.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
而不是一而再再而三發生這樣的事情就會說你們沒有行使部落同意然後呢就回歸到原點應該是你有看到這樣的事情發生的時候我們林保署跟園民會應該要主動的來積極來從事這樣的一個行使同意的一個方法那上次在新義鄉發生這個事情為什麼會讓人詬病呢就是他因為把這個主導權放到給鄉公所可是鄉公所他沒有這樣方面的經驗園民會也沒有去中央去 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9029.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9047.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
去指导他所以你让一个承办人去做这么防守的工作他根本就做不来他因为业者的一个要求他就每三个月就做一次有这样的一个行使同意的方法最主要跟署长要说的就是说你不能让这个事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9048.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9066.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
在公有林跟私有林这个范围里面如果是涉及到传统领域的时候不能让它一而再再发生是要行使部落同意的时候你们没有版本在那里你们也没有跟原民会去研究说我们这个制度要如何去进行那我先听听你的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9067.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9089.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那個委員跟您報告一下其實我們很尊重原基法尤其是四類需要諮商同意的我們連人工林的書法其實都會跟在地部落去說明取得同意那我們這個為什麼建議說先不要納入修法是因為實際上會在這個我們的郭林區施工的很多都是部落他們要接水管拉水路 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9090.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9119.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
所以未來如果是連這個都要諮商同意反而會影響到其實衝擊最大是部落自治所以我的意思說這兩個制度是什麼樣的規模的時候你要尋求部落同意所以原民會這邊應該要努力去跟對 原民會那四項還蠻清楚的就資源利用然後這個開發土地開發什麼的對 所以我的意思是像這種小型的施工你把它納入其實真的會反而衝擊到所以我的意思是一定的規模是什麼樣的程度我覺得這個部分應該是可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9120.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9144.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
第二个就是我的修正就是在第四五条希望能够不受一个月清理的一个助纪限制因为我们肯定昨天屏东地方法院对我们原住民几个猎人判不罪就是说我们狩猎除罪化的这个原则就是我们只要在因为是传统文化非盈利之用这个范围的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9145.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9172.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
打烈士不受这个刑法的一个限制那如果说以后发生像有漂流木这些事情如果说你们是你们的建议是说一个月内因为基据要清运然后可能会不宜让民众进入不过如果你把原罪名当作是一个森林的守护者的时候我们也不是用基据去债我们是用我们传统的一个文化或者说非盈利之用的时候我觉得这一个月的这个限制应该要删除 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9174.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9199.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
跟委員報告這一個月是最長而且其實就是清理前我們現在實際上大概都在一個禮拜如果真的量多最多也就在兩個禮拜我們盡可能清完之後我們可以跟委員把個案跟報告那這個真的是為了安全因為在清理的階段那個怪手在那上面走來走去那很容易對減食的人會發生傷害那我是希望說讓我們有這名參與或者說 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9201.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9217.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
这个机制能够一开放来探讨都会先让涉及在地的原住民先优先一个礼拜这个也是现有的好 那我们就继续努力是 谢谢谢谢卢修一委员的咨询谢谢 谢谢署长 谢谢我们休息五分钟 谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9257.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9257.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9525.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9530.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
謝謝 我們開始開會請我們的同仁回到我們的位置上好 我們現在請我們呂玉玲委員質詢 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9555.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9570.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
謝謝主席 請陳部長請陳部長委員好部長今天我們特別排了這個森林法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9570.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9595.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那最重要的方向就是要來遏止這個盜採這個盜伐的這個問題還有就是故意縱火森林縱火的這個行為最重要就要提高這個伐源來嚇阻這個作用那在森林娛樂區跟我們自然的保護區的這個餵養餵食野生動物這個方面的話我們卻沒有這個法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9596.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9603.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以我要本席想請教部長那如果說在餵養野生動物的時候會發生哪些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9605.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9633.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
第一個部分就是你餵食野生動物的時候可能會造成一些野生動物除了野生動物以外還有一些可能的家犬或者其他進去會造成野生動物跟一般的家犬會造成一些衝突第二個部分就是其實野生動物就應該自然覓食你如果去餵養的時候會導致一些可能在我們在人在爬山的過程中它就會接近我們的人會造成一些更大的一個危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9634.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9656.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
還有一些疾病的傳播也會是 部長最重要是說近年來許多民眾出外踏青那我們看到一些野生動物像猕猴還是松鼠野鳥的部分他們來覓食覓食之後的話就讓這些動物會喪失了覓食的這個能力太過於依賴我們人類但是人跟動物之間就會產生了這個衝突跟這個競爭的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9662.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9676.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
爭議衝突的時候這個情況的話我們要保護人類的話所以我們在這個很多的法都有規範在像一般在我們地方的話像就公園的自治管理條例會去規範說禁止餵養 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9677.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9696.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那我们国家管理法的话国家公务员管理法它也是有规范但是我们的森林法对于这个森林游乐区跟自然保护区里面就没有这个规范有这个落差那所以我们希望说我们在这个森林法这边就可以要强调一下把它规范进去补这个漏洞您支持这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9696.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9712.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我想基本上我們絕對支持也尊重委員的這些提議因為很多委員提到那我在這邊也跟委員說明當初我們這個修法的版本是為了山林的壓力一些生態壓力但是因為行政部門的這些法律的修正的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9713.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9740.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
会经过非常多的程序但是这几年来又有更多的这些环境的压力或者是您刚才讲的喂养的压力来的时候我们没有办法就是说再退回来再重新修正所以委员在提案的时候我想我们一定会尊重跟支持基于我们要保护动物的健康跟民众的安全这个漏洞我们必须把这规范补上来好不好好 接下来要跟部长提的就是我们10月22号这个非洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9741.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9763.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
这个非洲这个猪瘟这个疫情的发生之后的话我们看这个情况可能是单一的个案那可能就是这个我们除以没有高温去增足而产生的那现在请问一下因为我们已经解除这个禁运了但是这个除以这个法令并没有解除那大概有明确的时间什么时候解除吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9764.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9779.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我跟委員說明就是我們在如果要處理廚餘養豬是不是非副廚餘養豬這個部分我之前有說過了必須要落實徵組然後落實監控完整的立即的監控還有法令的部分特別是罰款的部分會處理然後還有一個地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9779.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9806.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
同意但是料源的部分因為我們大方向會有一個有一個落日條款有個落日那這個落日期間的過渡期間是讓我們的豬農廚養豬戶有一個轉型的機會那轉型的輔導我們農業部已經準備好相關的方案的部分那我們在這個過渡期間會禁止家戶廚餘進到所謂的因為家戶廚餘是風險最高的部分我們是從風險的角度來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9806.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9830.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
就要加強管理跟守護這個我們廚餘不要再發生這個有問題那部長你提到說未來會循序漸進有家庭廚餘跟我們事業廚餘你會先禁止這家庭廚餘那未來事業廚餘的部分的話你們也會循序漸進但是我們為了這個廚餘要禁止的話很多方面的各層各面都要去考量到但原規正傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9831.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9860.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
这就会增加猪农的成本对不对这个成本很高啊因为大部分的飼料都是黄小玉吧吃黄小玉的成本的话这部分的话我们未来对这个飼料的补助会继续呢我想在这个禁止期间我们会我们已经在从事这个这个价差的一个补贴了然后后续如果要转型成飼料的时候我们会给予一个飼料的转型的这些费用包括它的飼料的这些生产的基本的设备我们也会给予补助 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9861.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9866.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們有一個比114年還優渥的一個方案所以還是會繼續飼料補助減輕他們營運的壓力對不對就是過渡期我們會來處理這個部分還有就是你的廚餘未來的廚餘廚餘跟我們現在的環境也跟民眾非常有關係如果說這個廚餘有很多種除了餵豬以外它還可以做發電或堆肥 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9885.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9906.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那現在目前來講的話在台中跟我們桃園這邊的話就發電的這個設備那還有多堆肥的話在台南的話有兩個區域叫新化跟晨溪這個有高速廚餘的發酵場但是未來你要全面禁止廚餘的情況下你循序漸進這些設備你都是要去把建置好來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9907.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9935.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我想這個就是我們跟環境部所一直在討論的部分您剛才講到一個重點就是說禁止廚餘養豬這個部分我想農業部的一個職責但是在考慮到它的時程的時候必須考慮到廚餘如果沒有妥善處理會造成環境的壓力那這個部分像您所在的桃園市政府桃園市的部分本身是廚餘養豬大戶所以我們怎麼樣讓它有系統的轉換成飼料的部分是我們一直關切的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9935.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9950.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以部長我們希望說你可以再跟環境部進行跨部會的討論加強這廚藝可以能源化跟我們肥料化這兩方面的層面來運用我所知道環境部一直在積極的規劃這個部分是 這才可以徹底解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9952.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9970.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
因為你加強這個能源的話又可以發電但是現在大部分你在禁止廚藝的時候這些都放到焚化爐去閃燒這不是長久之計啦因為焚化爐是燒垃圾的所以我們希望你未來的話在這廚藝能源化跟這個肥料化這兩方面要加強這個廠製的這個設置才能去 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9974.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9999.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
確實的解決這些問題才能夠解決民眾的疑慮跟我們整個環境整個整體的關鍵好不好這需要大家一起來努力然後我們也會跟環境部特別是進到焚化爐的部分那基本上它如果跟垃圾混在一起的時候大概10%是可以的但是相對的混在一起的話以現在的我所知道的資訊大概10%那現在只有3%那相對的就是除於要進到焚化的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10000.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10024.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
可能跟水分也有关系所以前端的从厨余的收取要有一个重新的设计所以我们还是要分开来对 还是要分流甚至中心来发电或者是说我们来堆肥等等这些都可以解决对 这也是我们一直在讨论的地方好 那就加油好 谢谢谢谢 谢谢吕玉玲委员的咨询谢谢部长我们现在请张亚玲委员咨询 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10034.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10047.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
謝謝主席 我們有請部長我們請部長我也好部長好我想先請教部長一件事情就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10050.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10070.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們現在其實在常常在講生態樂區這個名詞但是國際上在談的生態樂區是有一個精準的定義就是說它具有高度生物多樣性的核心區域它的多樣性包含了物種棲地與生態系等層次但是我們現在動保司講的生態樂區卻是受遊蕩犬 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10074.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10095.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
侵擾度來去劃設所以本質上其實不是同一個概念那我也知道說目前動保司正在重整所有關於受這個遊蕩犬侵擾的資料所以我也認為說我們未來是不是應該要重整這些圖資資料把樂區精準的去命名成為是衝突樂區也就是把人犬野生動物以及農村等 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10096.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10121.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這些資料來重整後進行管理而不是說放上了一個生態學的語彙可是卻跟科學定義來脫節因為我想要強調農業部不管是我們在講馬太安的這個溢流或者是到最近非洲豬瘟的處理我們都是秉持一個科學的概念所以我們應該在這件事情上面也要跟科學來做一個連結這個部分是可以的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10122.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10141.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我跟委員報告我現在正在要求我們同仁您剛才講的兩個一個是人犬就是犬屍跟食物或是野生動物的衝突區另外一個就是野生動物本身的活動區高度的活動區這兩個熱區概念不一樣但是應該把它Mapping在一起以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10141.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10170.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
去做一個最大化的一個最佳化的一個熱區的一個範圍的界定我覺得這個是一個非常重要的所以我想釐清一下部長您說的意思就是說因為我們現在也非常清楚的知道因為這個人犬衝突也非常多就像上次我講的彰化鹿港的這個案例一個沙坑裡面有23隻遊蕩犬那再來還有最近這個黑面疲勞在嘉義這都有捕捉到非常多的畫面你是說像這樣子不管是農損野生動物的人犬的你全部都會把它做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10171.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10189.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
精準的整合 對嗎所以會變成之後我們可以把這個熱區精準命名為衝突熱區嗎對 而且這個衝突熱區我跟他們討論過衝突熱區也有一些季節性的像黑麵皮路它在特定的季節來的時候那個熱區平台可能沒有但是如果黑麵皮路來進行那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10190.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10205.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
遷移的時候 那個地方就應該更高度的去做一些警戒跟樂區的劃設啦可是這樣聽起來樂區是在春夏秋冬四季會有不同的樂區嗎樂區是在我們的管理作為會因為季節性而有不同的強度 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10208.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10228.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那我也想要再請教一下因為我現在在看這個因為這個動保法裡面嘛我們之前也一直有在講說這個衝突樂區啊我們是想要把它定義清楚啦那我們就去看了一下這個衝突樂區目前呢動保司是說五次啦五次就會把它劃進去算是一個樂區那我想知道這個利潤基礎是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10229.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10243.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我这个可不可以请我们邓老师回应好哦 简短回应谢谢那个跟委员报告因为我们有统计过大概平均那个区域大概以往大概都是三次左右所以我们拉的数字是拉五次就超高于平均值的这个数字 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10244.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10264.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這不是平均值就是我們看大部分都是三次為什麼要高於五次被拉到到五次呢因為我們從我們的資料的背景來看的話五次的部分大概因為我們扣掉有些是重複通報的所以大概以案件數跟捕捉數來看的話那五次是目前認為是說頻率比較高當然這個門檻可以去做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10267.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10287.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對 這個門檻我希望可以提供給我一個報告好不好讓我知道這個門檻到底是什麼設定然後我們跟誰討論出來因為剛剛說有基於一些討論嘛那跟誰討論 如何討論出來這個數字因為我想這到底是五次 三次 一次我想也不是這邊在話說喊價啦應該還是基於科學的部分好 那再來往下延伸就是說我們現在呢在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10289.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10303.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
即便說我今天畫了樂趣啦我們還是要有實質的作為不然我們還是會看到一直不停的有各種是生命財產的損失所以我想這個部分我們後面因為時間已經到了所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10304.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10323.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
就之後繼續討論但是我想先要求一件事情就是我們石虎樂區其實已經在改變了生態已經在移動因為我們最近在阿里山上面也有發現所以我們是不是可以有定期更新的機制呢以及我們最近也有發現穿山甲的受侵擾的次數也是越來越多是不是也可以增列穿山甲的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10323.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10342.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我跟委員報告這也是我跟我們內部在討論的時候包括熱區我覺得一定要有一個定期的更新因為當你的森林的生態系越好的時候這些野生動物可能它的活動範圍會越大會跟以前不一樣所以我非常支持有時候可能是變壞了所以開始往 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10344.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10370.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
變好就是說變好以後他可能就會擴大他的範圍所以針對這些食物或者是您剛才說的穿山甲穿山甲的部分都應該有一個定期更新的一個機制對所以這個部分的話我們是已經有一些相關的規劃了嗎如何的怎麼樣多多頻繁是有一些相關的規劃了嗎可不可以容我我再跟我們同仁確認他的更新的頻度以後再跟您說明一下我們可以來去追蹤後續給我個時間好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10373.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10391.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
兩個禮拜以後我想年底啦年底之前我想我們就可以可以跟您說明兩個禮拜到年底是差很多時間的看起來動保室都OK的啦就兩個禮拜好不好年底其實就一個禮拜而已我都希望他們越快越好沒關係兩個禮拜就兩個禮拜好謝謝喔謝謝喔姚琳謝謝還有我們部長謝謝喔我們現在請陳培鈺陳培鈺陳培鈺委員不在我們請吳麗華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10410.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10430.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
謝謝主席有請部長或林保署長都可以我們請部長跟署長其中一位就可以了因為部長很辛苦委員好謝謝部長部長在南投信義鄉有一個叫丹大林道您應該很清楚了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10431.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10457.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這個丹大林道其實前些年爭議也很多最主要的原因是開放山林之後那個地方因為有個七彩湖所以登山客非常的多因此也很自然的在地人會很想發展一些高山的產業例如高山機車接駁之類的另外一個衝突是說也很多外地人 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10458.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10460.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
他們也很想騎自行車上去 騎機車上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10461.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10490.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
但是就會發生一些像曾經有個騎士他就墜谷死亡所以亂象非常的多包括帶來的垃圾等等那在這裡其實我過去也有這樣的一個協助的經驗就是在屏東霧台鄉有一個很有名的大午的哈游溪他那時候其實也是製造很多衝突就是外地人想要進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10492.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10509.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那在地人呢也有阻擋的行為但是因為都沒有法制可以處理所以當時我還在縣政府擔任處長的時候呢我就建議左手來協助他們去規劃自然人文生態景觀區因為看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10511.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10528.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
要有法才好管理那没有法的时候真的很难去介入很难管理就会引发很多的冲突那我也很高兴这个单大领导的冲突那个时候他们也有找我澄清所以跟领保署的南投分署 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10529.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10549.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
也去建議在地人那他們後來也接納就是去化設野生動物保護區那也做過公聽會那七彩湖另外一端的就是花蓮萬榮鄉那邊花蓮分署也有協助我現在先請教一下不曉得目前的進度如何這個部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10553.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10569.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
跟委員報告這部分委員應該也清楚完全是由下而上由跟這個相關部落來討論保護區的劃設那目前這個保護區的劃設範圍還有它的這個管制的計畫都已經完成了那在之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10570.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10586.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
因為七彩湖還有整個丹大山區也是台灣非常多人會登山的這個區域所以也是一個很重要的利害關係人所以前面我們邀集了國內相關的登山團體就未來可能的這個管制的這個方向來跟他們研商 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10587.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10608.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
中整大一間現在也差不多到最後階段了我們現在預計在應該在明年初就可以來公告這個保護區了非常感謝這樣子進度算不錯那再請教一下因為如果說有這樣的一個保護區就會要有一個保育計畫書嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10609.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10633.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
會來訂定規則嘛那我看到草案他提到核心區的特別管制項目是除緊急救災及公務需要 禁止動力車輛進入且不得騷擾 獵捕 錘掉或宰殺野生動物那另外緩衝區跟永續利用區他的規定是非經主管機關許可 禁止動力車進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10634.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10643.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以我其實只是想要問一下那未來訂定這個保育計畫之後對在地原住民有什麼跟人家資格不一樣的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10645.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10668.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
在地居民本來因為那邊本來就是主居地或是他們經常活動的地方所以他們的日常活動是不受這個影響的那請教一下那其實他們長期以來其實最訴求的就是希望可以發展出高山機車接駁那你們林保署有沒有什麼樣的一個輔導規劃我們現在是在協助用四輪的車輛因為機車太危險了 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10670 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10696.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以我們現在也協助已經租賃了車輛所以這個會變成未來部落協作產業很大的一個提升這個都是我們跟部落一起來進行那其實我談到這個也跟我今天的修法有關係因為過去我們沒有這樣子劃設的時候沒有法可以管的時候那在我們的森林法也沒有寫明的時候通常我們都會在地人甚至你們自己林保署也會設路障 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10697.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10720.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
找保七來協助用社委法來開罰那我們在地人的話大概就是涉陸障所以引發很多的衝突所以在這邊森林法第17條之二是用新增的就是提到國有林籍公有林籍之遊棄活動影響森林生態及環境者主管機關得指定管制地點實施人員之乘載量管理車輛之使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10721.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10735.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
宿營地點之限定那另外就是配合這個第17條之2也有去修訂在第56條之3的一些規範那不曉得說農業部有沒有同意這樣的一個修法主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10737.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10747.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
基本上我們支持也認同委員的一個提案好 非常感謝好 那主席再給我一分鐘因為其實我們還是要回歸到山林共管這件事其實我很感動在2021年的時候蔡英文總統她有跟我們林務局跟在地的泰雅的Skaru流域的雪壩公園這個地方有去做一個共管合作備忘錄我很感動 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10762.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10777.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
但是我們地方政府也會辦像台東縣政府有找幾個他們的台東縣的部落也去簽了這個共管合作計畫但是我們原住民就是有點頭痛就是每次共管共管好像不了了之也不知道在共管什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10778.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10792.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
就沒有很具體那我在這邊具體的提出一個部落就是台東達仁鄉的新化為什麼呢因為他們那個地方有油山是屬於你們林保署的地那邊的這個孤子崙山也是他們的聖山 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10794.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10815.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
雖然台東縣政府有跟他們做共管但是他也沒有感覺到實質的共管意義他們是很希望說既然是你們林保署的管理的土地是不是他們新化的這個遊山區能夠去做一些森林步道的改善去訂定一些很實際的共管機制不曉得部長或署長你們的意見怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10816.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10836.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我想基本上我們農業部對於森林的一些政策一定是朝向如果說有雲部落的話一定是朝向山林共管的一個機制但是我也認同就是說我不能只有一個共管的口號必須要去落實包括一些怎麼樣的資源的共享包括你剛才說如果說有外面的人去遊客的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10837.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10858.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
要設置什麼樣的一個步道跟安全設置那這個部分一定要跟原當地的部落一起來討論謝謝那我希望說如果大家有這樣的一個共識我們是不是找個時間邀部落然後一起的來討論好不好這邊您提到的一個月我想應該沒問題我們可以來討論好 謝謝謝謝部長 署長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝部長我們現在請賴世邦委員質詢 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10868.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10876.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
謝謝主席有請一起各位先進有請農業部的陳部長你請陳部長 謝謝我也好我就簡單謝謝 你好那麼我想要請問這個剛才你回答其他委員有提到廚餘養豬這個什麼時候可以全面 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10896.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10917.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
禁止廚藝養豬現在看到全國各縣市你可以看到豬瘟之後這個非洲豬瘟入侵之後你看到已經有早就宣布的後來陸續宣布的包括雲林縣 花東 金門 澎湖高雄市 台南市 嘉義縣苗栗縣 宜蘭縣等等的幾乎是不分 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10918.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10935.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
不分黨派啦藍綠幾乎都這個執政的縣市幾乎都宣布了就不要再除羽養豬免得又有這個疑慮這個到底什麼時候這個什麼時候你可以宣布全面禁止除羽 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10936.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10962.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我跟我們報告第一個部分就是整個大方向來講我們會有個弱智 除以養豬的一個弱智讓這些除以養豬戶有一個過渡期那過渡期我們會讓它轉型成為用飼料的部分那您剛才說的有不同至少現在目前有應該是有將近五個縣市本身是禁止除以養豬不止五個喔 剛剛念的就不止五個啦原來的不算 原來已經禁止的不算啦十幾個了 加起來十幾個了對 加起來是十幾個對啊 就一半啦沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10963.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10975.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
一個最重要的除以養豬大縣市的部分包括新北包括桃園包括新竹台中彰化這幾個都不吭聲所以我們的相關的政策你叫他吭聲啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10976.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10989.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
沒有 前六大還有屏東這六大的部分我們會跟縣市政府溝通我請問你成本考量是不是主要成本考量不是成本考量不然為什麼呢這個如果大家講不然就是飼料嘛飼料比較貴飼料跟廚藥差多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10993.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11014.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
你告訴我差多了因為沒有差幾%差幾%第一個除以養豬的黑豬的部分他要養差不多一年然後一般的白豬的話大概是180天大概六個月所以這兩個時間點不一樣他的換肉率也不一樣不是你跟我講我們這個都聽不懂成本差多少3層4層5層6層大概差10多塊10多塊是幾%幾%幾%每一公斤幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11022.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11029.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
三層左右三層左右三層左右多少錢啊這個你們農業補貼一下不就好了嗎我們後面我們現在除以養豬的轉型我們有一個比較好的方案但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11037.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11061.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
委員非常重視的剛才一個很重要的問題就是廚餘如果沒有好好處理的時候它變成另外一個環境議題那縣市政府我們的對啦 因為現在六成的廚餘都是去餵豬的嘛六十二%所以我們會跟縣市政府溝通它當地的廚餘如果能夠有效的處理的時候你現在因為時間有限你就具體回答我你心目中 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11062.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11081.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
什麼時候可以確定我全國禁止廚藝養豬戶以農業部來講我們是越快越好越快越好 多快 三個月而已嗎沒有 我們越快越好但是一個很重要 我剛才說的就是我們要讓我們的廚藝養豬戶有一個轉型期讓他來接受輔導第二個部分就是轉型要多久嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11082.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11103.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
轉型的部分要看 因為從申請 像現在裝天線的話就裝了三個月了 還沒有裝好所以這個部分 我想我們會盡快要夠鼓鼓鼓就對了沒有 我們會跟環境部來溝通我可不可以這樣講 給你寬鬆一點我們你預期一年內可以確實做到全國禁止出移 養出移會三年沒有 我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11105.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11129.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我想我們的方案裡面有這樣的一個選項但是我們會跟地方政府會跟地方政府溝通可不可以這樣講最慢一年越快越好這樣可以嗎這個還要跟地方政府溝通我說弱勢當然以我們來講越快越好但是相對的地方政府如果在除以本身的處理沒辦法處理的話可能就會有所調整所以我一年是可以期待的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11130.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11143.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
一年可以期待的 在我們的方案之一可以期待的喔好 第二個題目就很簡短光電三法通過以後其實對這個熔電共生其實是有一定的衝擊這個當然是正面的我們認為9月8號審計部報告魚電共生七成有電沒有魚 魚死光光 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11156.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11186.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
目前還有3000多個熔電案主要是以無光需求或者部分光照需求的設施例如孤設集貨廠冷凍庫溫室為主那這個台灣是不是有可能做到像日本一樣就是說我一方面我農地也種電但是不會影響產量不會影響環境就是以農為本的農業共生方案有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11187.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11203.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我跟委員報告你剛才講的孤設集貨場冷藏庫它都是完全是用黑暗之下或人工光源就可以生產的那這個部分在溫室的這些光電的部分大概本來就在開放了那你講的以農為本的這個部分這個是審計部報告 審計部報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11204.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11231.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我知道所以我才會說我們現在是開放漁電共生但是農電共生本身我們要考慮的會更多的因素那我們個人期待就是說這個政策我講會隨著時間而去做一些檢視跟調整你主席站起來我不要耽誤太多時間人家審計部打你槍說你漁電共生七成有電沒有魚魚死光光這個你們要對外正式說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11234.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11252.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
怎麼會有這個情況 審計部打你槍欸審計部 審計部啊我想我們針對審計部的報告 我們也很深刻的檢討不是 你有沒有對外說明啊 審計部這個他講這樣子就打你槍啊 你都沒有回應啊我們有沒有回應 我們應該有回應吧有嗎 對外 你怎麼回應 你現在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11252.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11268.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我想漁電共生本身我們經過查核的部分那這七成裡面可能有一部分是在試營運的階段它還沒有接電但是它試營運還沒有得到電業許可那這個部分我們已經在處理然後我們也將近270多場的這些這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11271.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11283.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
魚電工生的部分如果他沒有養魚的話我們就廢止第三個部分就是以前的改善期沒有期限一直改善你還要推魚電工生嗎人家打你一槍你還要推嗎魚電工生如果好好的經營是沒問題的那現在就是說魚電工生都是以光電業者為主體那未來我們會調整成以對啦這是我講的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11297.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11312.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
應該要與農為本的農電共生或者與漁為本的漁電共生才對啦這個是我們的堅持 我們會從這個方面去改善好 這個你要加油啊 人家打你槍啊我知道 了解謝謝 謝謝事發委員 謝謝部長我們現在請參議委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11327.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11334.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
謝謝主席那我們是不是請農業部部長跟林保署的林署長部長跟署長謝謝好部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11342.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11360.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那因為今天在處理這個森林法那當然會進入一個很重要在嘉義山區的一個課題也就是從過去那陳明溫委員事實上他就不斷的在經濟委員會這裡都有去質詢就是說山區的國有林班地 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11362.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11384.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這個很多是國有的一個土地但是林班地的編定把它編定為林業用地或是國土保安用地那導致於土地是受到限制的但是山區的居民他住在這邊他們沒有辦法因為過去長久住在這裡然後從日治時代日治時代的時候就在這裡開墾開墾的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11386.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11407.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
台灣光復了他們不知道要去做登記所以沒有取得所有權沒有取得所有權當然延到現在他就是公有地嘛那公有地的那山區的就會有這樣的一個結構性問題就是說那到底他們要怎樣去可以合法的使用這個土地不然現在都是違法都要面臨被拆遷的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11408.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11434.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那過去我們是用所謂一個空拍圖就是第一批的空拍圖58年5月27號但是58年5月27號基本上這個很多空拍資料是沒有辦法呈現完整的所以在當時都說那既然國有財產法42條第一條就已經有規定說對於公有財產的一個不動產的出租如果要用標租的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11435.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11464.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
有出租類如果他在民國82年7月21號以前已經實際使用而且他願意繳清歷年的使用補償金的話那應該還是要淨於出租給他們那如果這樣的話既然國財產法以民國82年7月21號那這個時間也比較符合我們知道所謂區域計劃法對於地方的包括建築物它的一個使用規範明了之後才有的法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11464.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11483.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那是不是我們可以把這個法律之間就不要說林地它就有一套自己的標準國有財產署所有的土地它又有自己的一個標準我們把它整併都用82年7月21號來做最終的認定可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11485.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11507.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
一個問題說明就是說因為兩部法本身有一些競合的部分那林業部申請法的部分這邊我們在處理的時候因為我們有先有清理的動作所以造成一些困擾那我剛才也特別提到了就是說在認定只要有居住40的認定不管是原來的58527或者是你們現在希望用82721的這個日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11509.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11530.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那現在我們的航空圖照是已經放寬到65到70年之間那我這邊也同意事實上部長我也要感謝因為你最近剛放寬了我們這個林班地的清理計畫把它放寬到116年那接下來但是要來解決後面的問題所以後面的部分也容委員給我們一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11531.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11548.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我想我第一個就是我內部必須要去大家有一個共識因為在處理的東西我也不希望同仁違法所以這個部分在可能的情況之下當然如果能夠兩個法能夠一致那是最好的那我會去了解不能一致的這些原因可不可以移除 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11549.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11565.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
如果可以移除的話部長這真的有麻煩你啦我覺得這真的是會救了山區很多人因為很多是他阿祖阿公老了的家他面臨被排查而且我最近還遇到很多甚至他這間房子被拆掉之後他沒有地方住啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11565.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11585.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以他真的有面臨這個是屬於他們的居住權的一個問題所以我覺得部長你再整理這兩個法法就讓他一致嘛既然你們也可以從58年那後來已經把他放寬到65年那怎麼沒辦法就是用82年統一的一個方式來做最終的一個認定好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11585.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11607.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
了解 我想我們會朝這個方向看看有沒有辦法把這些我們現在遇到的這些障礙能夠把它解決啦這個部分我們就來處理保證這真的要大家拜託這要鄭重拜託真正的解決這個土地正義的一個問題那第二個啦因為賴總統在上禮拜他宣布了台灣再重啟公定法行李部長這真的是一個德政 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11608.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11634.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
一樣是我剛剛延續的 那些都是日本時代留下來土地的東西政府可能太過精修 或是這個北省不去定期的土地或是說日本人留下來 然後中華民國接收過這些土地呢 基本上又透過工地放領讓實際的自耕農取得土地的所有權這是一個德政 部長你同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11636.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11660.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
你同意嗎 我要講 事實上我們這次的工地放寧有一點美中不足的地方 我講我們嘉義縣的刺濕農場我們嘉義縣有一個刺濕農場 在嘉義縣的第13大名鄉這四鄉的這四個鄉鎮的一個交界 面積兩千多公頃日據時代的時候 它是日本人的肥沙收育的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11661.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11683.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
在民國22年 26年的時候 就昭和12年他遺傳給一個日本人 叫做赤獅出太郎在民國33年的時候 昭和19年由他的兒子赤獅大戒 雄雄 就是戒神的意思就是他繼承了這個土地那這樣的一個土地 在當時就租給了很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11684.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11711.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
百姓在這裡租用 然後他們就從事農作他可能在這裡種椪柑 種鳳梨我們知道現在民雄這麼鳳梨最出名的大概就是在一個刺濕農場這一塊地方那這樣的一個刺濕農場 基本上它就是它比較廣廣 海平面不到100公尺海平面沒有到100公尺 但是它比較有坡度可能它的坡度 可能差不多5% |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11713.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11737.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
不然都15%以下啦就是說它屬於緩坡 二極坡以下像這樣的一個二極坡在這一次的公定範齡如果以我現在的理解大概沒有在這一次範齡的範圍你看它這個土地基本上是平的它就是比較高 它這裡的土地比較高的平地可是它基本上是平的 都是緩坡都是緩坡 都5% 差不多5%這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11740.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11761.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
結果卻無法被放零 這2000多公頃真的是美中不足啦那部長這部分能不能再重新評估一下像這樣的一個赤獅農場這裡的土地雖然是被編列為山坡地那甚至說有很多在林班地的地方雖然是沙窟 但是它一樣是環坡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11763.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11777.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
像這種這種緩坡就是十五像這個坡度大概在15%以下的就二級坡以下的基本上都不會變成說你們所擔心的水土保持的狀況那既然是緩坡的話是不是我們可以也一樣開放讓他工地放寧了 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11778.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11803.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好 謝謝委員我其實在前兩天才找我們同仁討論那現在第一階段我們在處理這些工地放擬是根據內政部或是財政部的那個國有工地的放擬的辦法或是邊際的養殖用地的放擬的辦法去處理的那處理當然有個前提就是65年9月24號之前已經有一些放租的一個實況那更重要就是他也不能影響到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11804.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11827.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
水源的涵養國土的保安或者是自然的保育的部分那我在這邊也跟委員報告第一階段是處理平地的部分第二階段就會處理波地的部分山坡地的部分因為山坡地本身根據山保條例裡面的山坡地也有一個放零辦法法已經在那邊了但是因為考量到山坡地有一些自災的風險那我已經請同仁去做仔細的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11828.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11835.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
套土就是說把這些可能的移農移牧用地他沒有安全餘地沒有影響到自然 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11836.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11864.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個自然的保育的部分我們先把它盤出來然後再跟內政部來討論部長可能就麻煩就是盤一下這個部分我們會持續來處理就是說沒有影響到這一個有危險的一個問題的話那既然它就是我剛才說的反潑嘛對那也沒有影響到這個水源地的話我說這部分應該我們也一樣來幫因為平地的話比較容易處理散布地因為它的地形的關係可能更需要仔細的盤點才能夠去做處理好 部長我再問最後一個我們破住的八坪市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11865.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11887.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為我們人聽到已經過五年了當然因為都還沒開始去我們現在縣政府願意承擔責任來蓋來蓋的話但是拖越久那個新本路燈現在拼架起來可能要三十五天才有辦法來興建部長這部分是不是這個我想我們持續在行政院做溝通那原則上我們是希望他能夠蓋好 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11888.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11909.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
但是它的經費從20億變成35億因為物價的關係嘛它是20增加變28啦然後因為又時間又拖到了又變35啦所以我覺得我們不要再拖了這越拖越快去我想我們已經跟行政院說明了這個部分然後我們盡快的希望說能夠爭取到一些經費來支持就35億就不要再拖因為真的拖越久 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11909.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11923.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
預算越高 這個我也非常清楚然後我們 因為我們把人家拆了 已經很多人都我也 我知道 這個我知道他在台地 整個都不方便 就持續這麼久我們趕快解決這件事好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝蔡議員諮詢 謝謝我們謝謝部長 請馬文君委員諮詢議員幫我坐一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11948.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11949.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11958.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11979.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
部長好 部長今天我們在森林法的部分我們有提案要增訂第8條之一條文的草案不過剛剛聽到部長有提到這個並沒有要納入去做修正我們在還沒有做充分溝通的時候其實我們已經先否決掉我覺得這個政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11980.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12000.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
是非常的不負責任而且可以用可惡來形容因為我們等一下剛剛蔡委員也有提到或之前也有委員提到我們想要藉這個機會我們想要請教一下林班地上面建物的審任時間採用58年5月27日這個日期有法令的規範嗎包主來回應有法令規範嗎當時是台灣省政府所核定的一個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12009.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12014.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
他是一個計畫所以這不是法規上面規定的一個日期對不對可是我們長期以來因為這個省政府時期第一次要辦理濫墾地清理計畫他發布的日期58年5月27號這個日期並不是法規命令的日期可是卻被政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12030.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12045.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
作為建物審認的重要日期而且這個做法沒有法源依據可是我們長期以來幾十年來卻以此對人民心送我們為什麼會提到因為怎麼告都輸啦所有的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12047.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12063.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
甚至從清朝時期甚至從日據時代一直到國民政府來的時候其實有些人早就住在那裡居住甚至上百年他們居住的事實其實我們也都很清楚可是在我們每次 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12065.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12080.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我們那時候用航照圖因為你是在森林裡面有些都被樹木遮蔽了以前你說要拿其他的佐證資料其實也不容易尤其是在山區然後人民的資訊又不發達的情況之下他們要取得這樣子的一個資訊並不容易所以我們今天才會特別提出來因為民主國家依法行政國參署很明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12091.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12114.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
在國有的土地上國產國有土地上面的管理跟規範他明定了一個日期82721而且是入法這是非常明確的今天我們一個國家用不同的法令而且是用沒有入法的這樣的一個日期對人民的財產其實就直接把它拆除我們面臨過很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12115.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12118.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
不只是南投剛剛提到的嘉義還有台南還有高雄還有其他的縣市很多很多人因為這樣房子被拆很多人因為這樣生病很多人因為這樣甚至自殺我相信署長其實也很清楚因為過去我們也討論過非常多我們希望有一個有效的解決辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12135.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12162.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
剛剛也聽到說這個對過去有些被拆掉的不公平我想要請大家看一下什麼叫公平跟不公平我們看到左邊的這個現在剛被挖掉的這個不知道什麼時候去拆除了一棟就是已經居住非常多他們甚至說已經居住上百年的這樣子的一個民宅就在林班地上我們為了要拆那個房子特別開了一條路把一個山林挖成這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12164.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12182.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們再看看右邊的這個圖一個是阿里山賓館一個是太平山國家公園裡面的也是我們的一個度假區這個都是我們林務署管理的單位對不對阿里山賓館跟太平山都阿里山賓館什麼時候蓋的這什麼時候蓋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12190.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12204.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
蓋成現在這樣喔我說蓋成現在這樣喔日本時期不可能蓋這樣我說蓋成現在這樣還包括右邊這個太平山他的新館是後來蓋 舊館是原本對 他什麼時候蓋的量體原來就這麼大嗎他本來就是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12206.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12213.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
應該是後來有在有在一規定在所以我們在說公平的時候今天我們政府把它委託給財團財團可以在那裡開發可以在那裡營業可以在那裡賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12221.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12240.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
他們是原來住在那裡的嗎都不是我們這舉這兩個例子而已他還有很多我們管理的我們的森林遊樂區全部都是非常的豪華都是非常先進的都是非常現代化的這樣子的一個度假勝地可是我們在開發的時候政府做沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12241.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12262.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
人家住了數十年住了上百年全部都要被我們拆除而且這個拆除之前都要經過法律程序他們要跟政府告了很久沒有一個人可以安安穩穩的去過日子這就是我們今天為什麼要增訂這一條法令的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12263.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12279.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
一個重要的一個基礎我想請教部長我們要把它定成一個有法源基礎然後跟一個國家我們所有的像我們在國土管理上面採取一致性的標準這有什麼困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12281.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12295.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我跟你們報告 國產署的法律跟我們農業部的法律它基本上有一些競合你沒有法律耶 剛剛說部長沒有聽清楚剛剛那個是沒有法律的計畫也是一種行政的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12296.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12324.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
行政作為拿來管理我們所有的人民你今天如果你的行政作為可以讓財團在那裡開發這樣的土地我跟委員不要大聲我們可以好好的講我願意來檢討今天我跟你講今天如果民意沒有辦法表達的時候如果沒有大聲我相信政府聽不到因為我今天早上聽到你說這些都不納入去討論的時候我真的非常非常的憤慨尤其代表人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12325.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12332.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
委員會裡面是不是要進到討論是由立法院的委員會決定不是我來決定我們只是建議我們是建議不要排審今天你是農業單位的一個很重要的一個大家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12340.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12343.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
今天這個議題如果非常重要他如果對人民的財產還有人民的權利是有保障的是應該要被照顧的你們應該要積極爭取我們之前也跟林業保育署其實也提過很多次我們希望可以適時的修法你今天不是對他們特別優待他們早就在那裡你今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12364.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12391.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我們賴總統都已經說要工地放零我們有很多的土地政策都已經在放寬你今天都可以同意讓財團在這裡蓋這麼大的量體都可以在那裡賺錢沒有理由讓我們原來的啃農或者我們原來的農民做這樣的犧牲尤其他們的房子一棟一棟被這樣的拆除這個部分部長是不是可以同意跟林業保育署可以可不可以朝這樣的方向去做努力我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12391.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12400.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我如果可以政策決定不需要任何法律我馬上就同意了沒有 法律由立法院來通過一定有一定必須要去解決的我們現在今天特別提出來是不是你認為像這些啃農或像這些我們原居住的這些農民其實他們在財產的保護上面是不是我們可以給他一個法源依據這就是我們今天要修這個增添這一條法的一個重要的一個目的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12420.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12440.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那農業部可不可以朝這樣去努力農業部可不可以朝這樣去努力早期日據時代這個都不是問題因為杭照讀在71年的部分現在要處理是71到82年之間的部長你顯然對這個問題沒有很認真的去了解過今天如果是這樣我相信我不會比你了解還少部長請聽我講完我告訴你不要拍桌子 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12445.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12448.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
請你解決所有農民的問題今天我們要說的是如果我代表農民來對你做一個懇求今天如果你可以獨厚財團也希望你們可以照顧農民今天很多人因為這樣自殺很多人看著房子被拆掉以後無家可歸請你們用這樣的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12474.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12488.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
看待這樣子的一個居住在那裡的農民可不可以我們現在要求的就是希望你可以去做檢討去幫助可以嗎可以去檢討我們可以來檢討所以我說過在前幾個委員說過我們一定很務實的來檢討我剛才說了如果沒有一些特殊的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12499.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12525.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好很抱歉如果部長願意檢討願意幫忙我們所有的這些原來的啃農跟住民我對剛才拍桌子對你抱歉我們希望我們農業部還有林業署真的可以去體諒這些原來住在那誰要住在這樣的山上啊就是他必須他們長久的都在那裡安身立命希望給他們一個機會希望有機會做這樣的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12528.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12544.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
而且這個必須要有你們提出因為行政院可能不會去通盤的去了解到這麼多有你們去提出來才可以有效的去達成好不好謝謝馬文卿委員的質詢謝謝我們現在請高金素美委員質詢謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12558.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12584.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
有請部長 林保署署長 原民會的代表原民會今天有來嗎好 麻煩一下 我們的賴總統他在最近高喊重啟工地放領他說要把將近2000公頃的土地還給真正的耕作者那這同時也有人 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12585.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12605.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
就是要提案打著地級不清的旗號要修法然後把目前國有零出租給從來沒有繳過租金的現況者來使用而當你們在做這些事情的時候請問一下原住民族土地的轉型正義你們有思考過嗎 請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12609.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12634.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
我們在考慮這些相關的傳統領域的部分我們特別是在森林跟原住民有關的我們一直朝向是山林共管的方式跟原住民和諧共管的方式來處理這是我們一致的態度好 謝謝我讓您看一下一張圖我們把這張圖攤開來看看一下國有領辦地和原住民族的傳統領域我相信園民會你應該知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12635.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12656.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這兩者幾乎完全重疊的而這些所有重疊的土地 它從來也不是無主地這是我們的祖先 原住民族的祖先在我們的政府來到台灣之前就已經在這邊耕作 狩獵 生活的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12657.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12678.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
而總統府的原轉會 他也承認了這樣子原住民族的傳統領域而退補會台堂 林業署 掌管了非常多的土地它本質上就是原住民族的傳統領域 這些官方資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12679.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12707.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
看一下這個都是官方資料不是高金素梅自己畫的他就是實打實打實證的鐵證我要在這邊說的是只要涉及到原住民族土地權益的修法我在這裡要要求必須依照原基法第21條要做到什麼呢釋權然後自由然後知情的諮商同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12708.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12710.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我想部長您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12712.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12740.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我基本上同意委員的看法但是有一個實務上的問題如果所有的施工都要相關的原住民的部落的諮商參與如果原住民自己拉水管或做一些小型的建設的時候也要經過這樣的諮商會造成部落之間本身就會卡住所以我們覺得說用這種方式因為在原住民基本法已經有規範了那在生理法如果用這樣強度去規範的話反而會影響到部落未來的一個興建 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12742.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12763.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
部長 您的回答我可以理解 請一下署長署長 要尊重原基法 這是法律位階我們不要談這麼多枝枝節節的小細節而這些枝枝節節的小細節 原民會會跟部落來商量 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12764.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12780.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那如果做那麼大的事情然後你說因為我做這麼大的事情會影響到原住民你們自己內部的一些問題的話這個我們定原住民族的基本法就沒有意義了 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12781.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12796.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以部長也好署長也好我要告訴你們的是訂定大的法律的規範或者是要大心吐木的同時或者是有一些人必須在原住民的地區從事一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12797.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12817.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
利益的時候你必須要遵守原基法21條我只是問您這個應該你們同意吧我覺得同意我再補充一下剛才委員說的如果說在這個同意的之下在原民會也好有一個相關的遊戲規則有一些排除的部分那絕對可行請問原民會的代表我們談的話你都同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12823.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12847.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以未來不管是哪一個部門 不管是我們的內政部也好 不管是我們的農業部也好 當他要訂這些東西的時候只要是在原住民族的傳統領域 就必須要依規範原基法21條你要堅守住好嗎謝謝 好 另外我看到了另一個問題也就是我們土地管理制度 硬生生就有兩套差別的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12848.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12863.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這次的修法就是國有或公有林地只要在民國82年前已經使用然後他願意繳補償金就可以禁於出租但是看一下元寶地真化邊的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12864.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12887.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
原保地真化編的使用所在77年2月1號前他有實際使用才能夠申請請問我們都是中華民國的國民為什麼國有零出租可以放寬年限到82年而真化編的申請認定我們只能卡在77年這不是赤裸裸的差別待遇嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12888.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12909.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我想剛才講的那是委員的修正版本是82721的部分然後我們現在是根據58527的部分然後頂多把這個航照圖放官到65到71年的部分所以所以公有或國有利只要在民國82年前使用就可以他願意繳補償金就可以進行出租 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12910.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12936.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這是委員提的版本但是我們是建議不排審好 謝謝我在這邊不管怎麼樣我要再次宣誓如果我們的政府兩套標準原住民族族人絕對起身抗議好 今天我要要求農業部跟園民會請你們兩週之內提出書面報告第一個國有林當中到底有多少面積是屬於原住民傳統領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12938.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12967.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
请把这个资料给我第二放宽禁于出租的年限会影响多少人多少笔土地其中多少是位于传统领域的第三个各修法的版本对原住民族跟传统领域权利的冲击跟配套你们必须要有一些评估跟一些书面报告第四评估之后这些对于原民权利的冲击影响你们有没有规划补偿赔偿原民的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12968.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12988.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這四個我希望你們在兩週之內提出書面報告也方便你們整理不然的話未來在這個地方還會有非常多的委員提案然後你們永遠也不可能說委員的提案你們不提審但是你們卻又拿不出一些說明的道理跟理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12988.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13004.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
好 謝謝喔我最後要講的是我們希望我們的政府不要嘴巴講要轉型正義實際上每一次要做任何一個政策的修改改變的時候都把我們的原住民的族人排除在外我認為如果今天賴總統說 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13006.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13022.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
他要所謂的工地放零我們如果要修這個法的話那麼真正就把一些土地還給我們原住民的族人我請助理再放一下最後圖片你們也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13025.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13039.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
國有地也好 它跟我們的傳統領域98%是重疊的 希望你們記得這個圖表 謝謝謝謝 謝謝高金素美委員的質詢 謝謝我們請羅廷惠委員質詢 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝主席 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13060.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13088.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好 部長好部長現在呢政府宣布推動向山致敬開放山林政策但我現在也看到整個蓬勃發展的一個山林活動也帶來了很多的挑戰商業團快速擴張欠缺管理環境承載著負荷我想現在的山域事故也頻傳商業團體隨意進入整個原民傳統的領域缺乏了去尊重整個原住民的主體性幾個問題就教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13089.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13099.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
首先像熱門的山區我舉例嘉明湖等地登山的人流大幅增加出現大量的排移衛生紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13099.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13121.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
除於就地的丟棄甚至吸引了野生動物改變覓食習性對於珍稀的物種水源造成了相關的影響請問一下農業部目前就嘉明湖或者是其他等熱門登山區域有沒有進行系統性的環境承載量的一個評估跟長期監測 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13122.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13141.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我想這就是我們修法的一個目的因為部分的森林開放有部分比較熱門的這些區域因為旅客的太多登山客太多造成這些生態的負荷所以我可以這樣講你看到長期的監測也感覺到狀況不妙對 所以才要這樣的一個修法相關的數據可不可以提供給本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13142.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13167.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我想我們會後我再請同仁整理以後再提供給委員那當然後面也要探討到避難三屋通訊設備建置的一個維護所以我也希望在這邊要提醒開放山林更需建立到全民山林的環境素養農業部近期推動無痕山林登山教育安全教育以及戶外友善的環境教材宣導的這個辦理如何有沒有在追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13168.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13189.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
校園辦理 地方社區 商業推廣我怎麼沒看過里長在這邊有跟我們分享我想我們會跟教育部來合作啦因為有一些教育的部分我想開放三年以後登山登山課造成一些違法的情況其實跟態度是有關的這個態度可能從小就要教育你們要怎麼樣跟教育部合作多久可以提出具體的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13191.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13218.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
給我們一個月好不好 給我們一個月一個月 那麻煩你承諾要給我相關的資料好嗎對也讓我們看一下好不好對 我會跟教育部來溝通看怎麼樣導入在他們的教材跟課程裡面好 一個月 好不好地方團體也要啊 地方社區啊這個部分我們都希望啊 加強啊我覺得整個登山的這些象山致敬本身你要去爬山的時候應該有一個基本的遊戲規則當然當然 那些都要商業團體那一定無話可說甚至他登山前的商業 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13218.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13237.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
活動應該都要教育啦是那個是基本要規範的就像上遊覽車要先播一個遊覽車的這個廣告嘛相關的一些安全宣導嘛我想基本的宣導我們應該更重視它另外我跟你請問喔南台灣現在濾烈溪越來越多齁那中台灣基本上我們是覺得已經算是一個防線了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13238.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13254.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
台中也有零星的濾烈溪問題七席處 法子溪 漢溪 大理溪 大致排水請問一下 目前我們要防範濾烈溪北擴目前中部區域跟南部縣市有沒有防治這個相關的策略差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13255.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13283.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我跟委員報告就是在應該在年初大概二三月的時候我就提到我們會成立一個濾劣系的一個應變小組然後啟動比較有系統的去獵殺到目前為止我們其實抓了23萬隻那台中的部分大概只有29隻還是零星的但是不能說因為零星我就不管他我們擔心他北擴嘛對 所以不能說他零星我們就不care他所以我們未來會持續的用經衛來協助地方政府一起來組成一個獵捕的這個團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13284.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13312.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我想加強中南部的獵捕那中部的防治這個部分很重要長期的監控相關如果有一些我們也希望這個監控的數據你們要有所掌握不要輕忽那另外我想請問之前就有七個月前有一個新聞動保法修正將提高宰殺傷害罰則政院版五月要提出報告送立院審議請問目前政院版到什麼地步了 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13313.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13329.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
動保法應該修過了嘛在政務會議那邊在審查對嘛 所以是農業部已經修過了嘛對 我們已經送到行政院了行政院要快一點來 你們要幫我催啊我們也一直在催啦我們也希望說在這個會期可以進來我想所有的委員都很 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13330.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13349.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
注重這個動保法我們都聚焦嚇阻虐待加重宰殺這相關的傷害行動那我個人也覺得不管是動保員加強他的權能那私有領域的一個搶救甚至是能夠將這個虐待動物的刑責加重我們都一直有所期待我不懂為什麼會拖這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13350.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13369.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
所以我也希望新聞都一直出來了講得很好聽那大家都有所期待結果到現在我們都還沒有辦法好好的來審這個部分農業部責無旁貸應該要來催促行政院這個部分也要想憲署你們很重視啊這個可以做得到嗎我想我們在上上禮拜已經跟院長也親自報告過在正義會議也報告過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13370.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13384.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所以我相信後續的這些審議的過程應該會比較快速謝謝希望謝謝我們羅廷惟委員質詢謝謝我們現在部長現在署長我們請謝龍介謝龍介謝龍介委員不在我們請葉元之委員質詢部長謝謝麻煩請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13403.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13423.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
部長跟你請教一下因為之前那個毒彈事件已經兩個禮拜了那其實那個毒彈全台有好幾個縣市像新北市也有一萬顆但大家現在都不知道說到底那個毒彈的原因到底是什麼現在有最後的調查的結果嗎是分埔泥彈我說的是分埔泥彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13423.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13439.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我想基本上就是在後市場計查是環境部的部分然後前端的部分因為他那個芬姆尼是一個環境用藥那可能在環境用藥的過程中我們也查到他可能有一些違法的用藥的部分那這個部分地方政府也已經裁罰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13440.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13461.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
所以現在確定是那個個案那個養雞場他在環境上面違法用我們也同時擴大了周遭的這些還有其他各縣市的這些養雞場去查到目前為止並沒有查到有違法的部分在農業部的角度針對這一個個案的養雞場做了什麼輔導措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13461.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13477.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我想第一個部分就是會用這樣的藥的話表示他的琴廠的管理是比較不好的才會用這個殺蟲的環境用藥所以我們會輔導這些琴社本身看有沒有辦法再升級的部分已經在做了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13477.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13499.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我們過去幾年一直在做但是相對的前設一旦改建的時候改建的時候會造成零幣效益大家會擔心他會擴建所以他在重新申請執照的時候有比較困難但是我想我們一直跟地方政府在溝通看看可不可以化解這樣子的一個中招最簡單講就是站在農業部立場是因為這個個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13500.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13516.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
他自己用環境用藥然後加上他的那個情色狀況比較不好所以就污染到了所以你們調查的結果是這樣希望部長可以針對類似的環境多輔導一下因為這個現在大家很重視食安的發現一件大家都會恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13517.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13542.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
所以不要說好像事件過了大家忘記了就沒這回事了不會 我們會記取這個教訓像114年我們就輔導了50場的禽社的改建是啦 但是就是沒有嘛就是沒有達到完百分之百效果嘛所以兩個禮拜前才會發生這個事件嘛第二個可能也要注意一下那個飼料的污染的問題因為我有聽一些這個養雞業界人說法啦他們是說像 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13543.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13562.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
像比如說這個蛋雞跟肉雞他們可以吃的飼料用藥的容許量不一樣嘛就有發生可能這個送飼料的過程當中原本是送給肉雞吃的飼料後來污染到送給蛋雞吃的飼料然後結果蛋雞吃了以後他一些用藥標準就超過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13563.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13581.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
這部分部長我跟委員報告那個飼料是不能添加分譜尼的部分而且飼料如果說我現在講不是分譜尼啦我現在講的是那個一般的用藥啦一般飼料容許的啦一般來講因為對蛋積蛋積跟肉積的它的飼料的有一些含有一些成分 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13582.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13607.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
它的標準是不一樣的嘛那如果你在寄送 你在運送過程當中馬上是運給肉雞 然後後來又運給蛋雞如果這個飼料汙染的話就會造成我剛講的狀況我知道 我謝謝委員的提醒喔我們會來了解就是說肉雞跟蛋雞本身的飼料因為據我們所知它基本上違法的這些藥品它不會放到飼料裡面去不過有可能會被違規的使用這個部分我想我們會加強來集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13607.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13624.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
好 再來問一下因為行政院私下都跟中小企業有一些中小企業傳出來的說好像關稅在這個禮拜就會定案之前我們都非常的關心有關於美國所提出來的非關稅貿易障礙特別是農產品可能會進來台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13625.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13641.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
然後甚至於沒豬沒牛要比過去更開放那農業部有得到消息了嗎因為如果這樣的話農業部要因應啦可能因應之前要規劃不可能說發生了之後才開始因應嘛那所以農業部現在已經有得到消息了 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13641.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13668.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我想基本上我們農業部並不了解什麼時候會開放就是會簽署這樣的一個台美關稅的一個協定但是相對的在談判過程中我們一直在爭取的就是確保我們的糧食安全還有我們產業永續的部分那不想放我覺得就是說開放那它開放到什麼程度然後影響的產業你們這一定都要評估我想我們都有做內部的一些評估所以如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13669.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13693.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
譬如說談判代表那邊是等到可以公佈在同步告訴農業部那你的反應就慢點啊我們在談判過程中我們都有參與你有參與所以你已經知道大概開放的程度了已經知道了大方向啦大方向是了解但是因為要繞到文本繞到文本的時候還沒有辦法所以大方向現在是要開放什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13694.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13719.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我想因為現在目前本身我們本沒有簽之前還在談判過程中所以你已經知道了所以會開放相關的農產品進來只是你現在還沒有簽不能說但是你已經知道是什麼所以你已經有因應之道我這樣講應該沒有超過你剛剛講的範圍我跟委員報告美國農農產品一直有進來一直有進來那只是在關稅的問題關稅的減讓那當然了所以這個部分委員我們的質詢時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13722.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13731.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
不同的品項太多了有不同的情境我們都會充分的準備好謝謝謝謝葉元志委員的質詢謝謝我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請部長我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13752.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13768.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
部長好謝謝主席今天安排了森林法我們要來做探討那本席也所提案森林法第二條及第15條本席的提案請教部長您的看法支持吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13776.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13798.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
尊重委員的提案尊重就是支持嘛就是因為後續會大家一起討論嘛那你支持本期的提案嗎我基本上是支持這樣的一個提案好 非常感謝我們的方向是一致的因為我們致力推動原住民原住民族轉型正義但是在我們森林法第15條沒有與時俱進 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13800.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13823.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
仍将原民采取的森林产物限制于定义不明的传统领域那只限于他的生活惯习那严重的背离的原住民主基本法的第19条的明文规定是说原住民主地区以及传统文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13824.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13839.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
記疑或者是自用權利範圍此種法律間的文字矛盾不僅形成了基本法給予的一個權利森林法設門檻的一個怪現象那更使得原住民族在實踐傳統文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13840.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13868.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
他面臨到處罰的一個風險導致權益保障可能會淪為是口號所以本席剛剛也歡喜聽到部長您的方向概念是跟本席一樣所以我們針對於在整個森林法以及原基法裡頭在採集區或者是在用途定義上面他目前如果沒有修他是有落差的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13870.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13878.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
這個農業部呢你們在於傳統領域來修正為原住民主地區這個方向是正確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13880.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13906.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
這個方式是對的所以謝謝你支持本席的一個提案因為我們知道傳統領域它實際上它是只有包括可以證明的採集還有它的居住以及它祭祀的一個痕跡所以這個範圍是很小的不足以來代表不是整個部落歷史活動的一個範圍我們正面的傳統文化傳統文化的部分還有自用的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13906.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13927.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
都要納進來嘛所以謝謝支持本席的一個提問那到時候我們在審查這個法案的時候我們就共同方向謝謝那本席要請教因為這個霧台鄉發生了原住民在三年內獵殺了四隻台灣黑熊的這個事件那昨天的媒體報導的很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13929.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13947.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
因為原住民有原住民他們的一個權利但是大家也認為說一個保育的動物發生這樣的事情大家也覺得非常的不捨在這樣子本席不希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13949.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13961.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
達到族群的一個對立跟社會的輿論的一個划欄所以本期要請教 你站在農業部的立場你認為我們要怎麼樣去 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13963.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13979.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
能夠融合不再族群的一個對立的聲音我跟你們報告雖然說我們的A88裡面因為原住民自用是沒有被裁罰但是我們後續也不希望說因為這樣子我們的黑熊被爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13980.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13996.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
是所以我們跟原住民希望說在山林共管的這個大精神之下能夠有一些自主通報的獎勵或者是一些黑熊的生態的起伏的方式對希望他們能夠更守護這些黑熊所以這個變成就是陳同部長你所說的我們必須要去宣導是 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13999.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14028.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
必須要能夠融入森林共榮共和共一的這個概念我們一定要去不要在這個整個族群的一個對立這是不是台灣的普世價值對所以這一方面要去加強要去加強好嗎好那接下來本席要請教既然我們是這個保護野生動物但是在推廣的安全的這個規格改良式的列具 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14029.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14052.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
現在如果說我們的民眾需要他可以到我們的這個林業署的工作站去申請嘛對不對那這樣子是不是會變成太被動化會不會變成太被動化我們有沒有一個另外的一個多元管道比如說我們的農會跟農民是最接觸的是最接觸的那是不是如果農會願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14054.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14071.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
也可以農民有更多的一個管道他不用跑到林業的這個工作署工作站去他就就近在他的農會因為農會是最照顧農民的嘛到那邊也可以申請是不是這樣更便利 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14071.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14088.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我跟委員報告其實農會已經有納進去如果農會也可以甚至於我都希望因為原民部落那邊大部分都是跟公所在接洽所以在公所那邊事實上應該也有一個申請的窗口這樣的話越多元的話我覺得這個推廣會越有效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14089.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14107.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
對 這個就是本席所說的所以你們必須要去告訴民眾你可以到哪裡去申請因為大家現在的觀念就只有在我們的工作站那大家覺得不方便那甚至公所甚至農會如果願意那可以有多元的 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14108.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14130.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
這個管道去做申請才能夠真正的來保護我們的野生動物因為每一次我們看到我們的野生動物這個腳斷啦或者是頭被掐住啦哇 這些我們長期在關注我們的野生保護動物呢我們認為這些捕捉的列據更應該要精進讓我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14134.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14140.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
野生動物牠不再受害這是我們的終極目標嘛 對不對了解 這是我們一起一致的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14141.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14165.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那所以您現在說的 既然是一次的目標 剛剛我們討論出的一個共識點第一個你要去宣導你要去宣導你可以到哪些地方去申請不管是公所或者是有的農會他願意要這麼做的或者是到你的這個工作站那都可以去申請你們是不是應該要去宣導因為民眾都不知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14166.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14170.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我跟委員謝謝委員的提醒那我會要求我們的聯邦組這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14172.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14199.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
甚至於不只是林保署因為農會的輔導卻有在我們的輔導師然後我們的科技各改良場所也有跟原民的這些夥伴有一些互動我覺得用多元的這些管道去宣導會比較快不能只靠林保署的部分你可以活潑一點比如說我們的套索你的八字轉環那你的線徑要大於4公里你就像那個消防的宣導一樣預防重疑治療的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14200.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14228.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
你運用一點多元化的一個有亮點可以吸引的焦點你把這一些比如說你的陷阱你的套索套索長什麼樣子或許很多人還不清楚你可以運用這樣子的方式去讓大家更加的認識同時也讓大家知道要怎麼樣的能夠讓我們的保護野生動物可以去落實大家有觀念才能夠真正的去做事情對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14229.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14233.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
會 我想謝委員提醒我們一定會朝這個方向來做而且會盡快的來做好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14236.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14261.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
謝謝楊秋瑩委員的質詢謝謝部長 謝謝署長鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們今天登記發言委員除不在場外其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員邱益瑩 高金素梅 邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及為其答覆部分請相關單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14262.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14279.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
於一周內已書面答覆並複製本會委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日討論事項所列議程森林法部分條文修正草案詢答完畢另定期繼續進行審查散會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14294.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14295.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
誒,弄來處理嗎? |