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陳菁徽 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:01,000 | 委員發言 |
| 00:00:07,760 | 00:00:08,760 | 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:08,760 | 00:00:10,500 | 想請衛福部時部長 |
| 00:00:10,500 | 00:00:12,500 | 謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席 |
| 00:00:12,500 | 00:00:14,500 | 好 有請時部長 |
| 00:00:17,240 | 00:00:19,000 | 好 部長 |
| 00:00:19,000 | 00:00:22,000 | 我們來回顧一下你上個禮拜開的記者會 |
| 00:00:22,000 | 00:00:23,300 | 我們先播一下 |
| 00:00:23,300 | 00:00:26,000 | 因為現在網路上很多人在 |
| 00:00:26,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 模仿 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 或者是在剪輯這一段 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:30,500 | 會覺得很不太合理 |
| 00:00:30,500 | 00:00:33,000 | 衛福部的長官是應該要告訴大家 |
| 00:00:33,000 | 00:00:35,000 | 怎麼樣可以保護自己 |
| 00:00:35,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 要多打疫苗 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:38,500 | 要注意自己的健康 |
| 00:00:38,500 | 00:00:40,500 | 要少吃這個少吃那個 |
| 00:00:40,500 | 00:00:42,500 | 那我們看一下陳時中政委講什麼 |
| 00:00:42,500 | 00:00:44,500 | 我們多大聲一點 |
| 00:00:59,500 | 00:01:01,500 | 一個政府做到 |
| 00:01:01,500 | 00:01:03,500 | 連讓人民基本的 |
| 00:01:03,500 | 00:01:05,000 | 吃得安心 |
| 00:01:05,000 | 00:01:06,500 | 都沒有辦法做到 |
| 00:01:06,500 | 00:01:08,500 | 要不要全部都下家 |
| 00:01:08,500 | 00:01:10,000 | 那如果這樣做的話 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 很快大家都沒有東西吃了 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:13,500 | 你有沒有感覺到 |
| 00:01:13,500 | 00:01:16,000 | 對台灣人民有一絲的愧疚 |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:19,000 | 你坐在他旁邊不會很尷尬嗎 |
| 00:01:19,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 還是你認同 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:22,000 | 我們出門也有風險 |
| 00:01:22,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 張開眼睛就有風險 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 曬太陽也有風險 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:26,500 | 喝水也有風險 |
| 00:01:26,500 | 00:01:28,000 | 那當初厚衣的手不把 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:29,500 | 最後一個太陽也射掉 |
| 00:01:30,500 | 00:01:31,500 | 你認同嗎 |
| 00:01:31,500 | 00:01:33,000 | 你是衛福部 |
| 00:01:33,000 | 00:01:35,500 | 掌管人民食品安全的長官 |
| 00:01:35,500 | 00:01:38,000 | 結果你們現在是在告訴大家說 |
| 00:01:38,000 | 00:01:40,000 | 做什麼都很有風險 |
| 00:01:40,000 | 00:01:41,500 | 最安全的就是到室內 |
| 00:01:41,500 | 00:01:43,000 | 喝一些特定的飲料 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:44,500 | 最安全是這樣子嗎 |
| 00:01:44,500 | 00:01:46,500 | 不是 委員你這個是剪輯啦 |
| 00:01:46,500 | 00:01:48,000 | 你這個把它剪輯 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:49,000 | 兜起來的 |
| 00:01:49,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 這個叫社會溝通嗎 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 他是有整個完整的論述 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:56,000 | 這個是中間去剪輯出來 |
| 00:01:56,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 我揣測 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 你這個論述是要講說 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:03,000 | 我們當初訂第二層不用下架 |
| 00:02:03,000 | 00:02:06,000 | 或者是20%以上才要下架 |
| 00:02:06,000 | 00:02:08,500 | 這個是因為生活環境中 |
| 00:02:08,500 | 00:02:10,000 | 任何食物都有風險 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:12,000 | 如果我們沒有這樣子做的話 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:14,000 | 就沒有東西吃了 |
| 00:02:14,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 是這個意思嗎 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:17,000 | 我們所有的食安 |
| 00:02:17,000 | 00:02:18,500 | 都是根據科學證據 |
| 00:02:18,500 | 00:02:21,500 | 所以我們有一些是訂有安全標準 |
| 00:02:21,500 | 00:02:23,000 | 有一些是不得檢出 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:25,500 | 所以它是有不同的管理的模式 |
| 00:02:25,500 | 00:02:27,500 | 這個都是根據科學證據 |
| 00:02:27,500 | 00:02:29,500 | 跟風險評估而來 |
| 00:02:29,500 | 00:02:33,500 | 我們這次是不能預期的風險 |
| 00:02:33,500 | 00:02:37,500 | 我們這次是不能預期的風險 |
| 00:02:37,500 | 00:02:40,500 | 這個跟曬太陽喝水 |
| 00:02:40,500 | 00:02:42,500 | 可以比擬的嗎 |
| 00:02:43,500 | 00:02:45,500 | 這個政委所講的是 |
| 00:02:45,500 | 00:02:47,500 | 確實我們不可能生活在一個 |
| 00:02:47,500 | 00:02:49,500 | 零風險的環境 |
| 00:02:49,500 | 00:02:51,000 | 所以我們一方面呢 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:53,500 | 政府把關訂定相關的標準 |
| 00:02:53,500 | 00:02:55,500 | 一方面也教育民眾 |
| 00:02:55,500 | 00:02:58,500 | 如何去維護自己的健康 |
| 00:02:58,500 | 00:02:59,500 | 他沒有教育民眾 |
| 00:02:59,500 | 00:03:01,000 | 維護自己的健康 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:04,500 | 他教育民眾全部下架就沒東西吃了 |
| 00:03:04,500 | 00:03:06,000 | 我們看下一張 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:09,500 | 這個到現在很多人都還很在意喔 |
| 00:03:09,500 | 00:03:12,500 | 我說的在意的人是不只在野黨 |
| 00:03:12,500 | 00:03:14,500 | 連陳其邁也很在意 |
| 00:03:14,500 | 00:03:17,000 | 從頭到尾大家就想知道 |
| 00:03:17,000 | 00:03:19,500 | 你們20%什麼訂出來的 |
| 00:03:19,500 | 00:03:22,500 | 這個會議紀錄在哪裡 |
| 00:03:22,500 | 00:03:25,500 | 還有你們這些參加的人有誰 |
| 00:03:25,500 | 00:03:27,500 | 我想先問第一個問題 |
| 00:03:27,500 | 00:03:29,500 | 你們這個專家會議裡面 |
| 00:03:29,500 | 00:03:32,500 | 有中聯公司列席 |
| 00:03:32,500 | 00:03:35,500 | 我想問從事發到現在一個月了 |
| 00:03:35,500 | 00:03:39,500 | 你每天都把中聯講成最大二級的人 |
| 00:03:39,500 | 00:03:43,500 | 並且做所有的事情都是他延遲通報 |
| 00:03:43,500 | 00:03:46,500 | 為什麼你要訂什麼東西下架 |
| 00:03:46,500 | 00:03:47,500 | 什麼東西不下架 |
| 00:03:47,500 | 00:03:49,500 | 還有中聯公司列席 |
| 00:03:49,500 | 00:03:50,500 | 這個是第一個問題 |
| 00:03:50,500 | 00:03:51,500 | 第二個問題 |
| 00:03:51,500 | 00:03:54,500 | 這個列席的人請問他現在是不是隨壓了 |
| 00:03:54,500 | 00:03:56,500 | 好 跟委員說明 |
| 00:03:56,500 | 00:03:58,500 | 這個會議這個專家會議 |
| 00:03:58,500 | 00:04:00,500 | 他是有兩段的 |
| 00:04:00,500 | 00:04:03,500 | 第一段是要針對中聯的這個事件 |
| 00:04:03,500 | 00:04:05,500 | 由專家來討論 |
| 00:04:05,500 | 00:04:08,500 | 因為7月1號已經去實地查場了 |
| 00:04:08,500 | 00:04:10,500 | 所以要對這個中聯 |
| 00:04:10,500 | 00:04:13,500 | 到底他的問題在什麼地方 |
| 00:04:13,500 | 00:04:14,500 | 做出了 |
| 00:04:14,500 | 00:04:15,500 | 因為他也提出他要 |
| 00:04:15,500 | 00:04:18,500 | 他的這個所謂的這個修正 |
| 00:04:18,500 | 00:04:19,500 | 準備他要復工 |
| 00:04:19,500 | 00:04:22,500 | 我們才會在這個會議決定說 |
| 00:04:22,500 | 00:04:24,500 | 沒有復工的可能性 |
| 00:04:24,500 | 00:04:27,500 | 以他所提出來的修正的方式 |
| 00:04:27,500 | 00:04:30,500 | 所以是根據要求他來報告 |
| 00:04:30,500 | 00:04:31,500 | 所以他怎麼去做 |
| 00:04:31,500 | 00:04:33,500 | 所以他前段呢 |
| 00:04:33,500 | 00:04:35,500 | 專家會議才會決定 |
| 00:04:35,500 | 00:04:37,500 | 那天誰列席 |
| 00:04:37,500 | 00:04:39,500 | 你那天請誰來列席 |
| 00:04:39,500 | 00:04:41,500 | 你們這個都講不出來 |
| 00:04:41,500 | 00:04:44,500 | 你在保護加害人的個資 |
| 00:04:44,500 | 00:04:46,500 | 那天誰列席 |
| 00:04:46,500 | 00:04:47,500 | 中聯公司誰列席 |
| 00:04:47,500 | 00:04:48,500 | 中聯公司誰列席 |
| 00:04:48,500 | 00:04:50,500 | 你只要講出來中聯公司誰列席 |
| 00:04:50,500 | 00:04:52,500 | 你要請誰列席就好了 |
| 00:04:52,500 | 00:04:53,500 | 誰嘛 |
| 00:04:53,500 | 00:04:54,500 | 我跟委員說明 |
| 00:04:54,500 | 00:04:57,500 | 當然我們可以提供啦 |
| 00:04:57,500 | 00:05:01,500 | 我們的會議紀錄都有提供給所資的委員 |
| 00:05:01,500 | 00:05:03,500 | 所以我們都提供了 |
| 00:05:03,500 | 00:05:04,500 | 所以今天 |
| 00:05:04,500 | 00:05:06,500 | 出席的專家 |
| 00:05:06,500 | 00:05:07,500 | 專家 |
| 00:05:07,500 | 00:05:08,500 | 出席的專家 |
| 00:05:08,500 | 00:05:09,500 | 你都可以提供 |
| 00:05:09,500 | 00:05:10,500 | 我等一下就所資 |
| 00:05:10,500 | 00:05:12,500 | 你現在就可以告訴大家 |
| 00:05:12,500 | 00:05:14,500 | 你那天請中聯公司誰列席 |
| 00:05:15,500 | 00:05:16,500 | 那個 |
| 00:05:16,500 | 00:05:18,500 | 那個同仁查一下 |
| 00:05:18,500 | 00:05:19,500 | 我們確認一下 |
| 00:05:19,500 | 00:05:21,500 | 我執行前跟我說 |
| 00:05:21,500 | 00:05:23,500 | 那其他的專家學者 |
| 00:05:23,500 | 00:05:26,500 | 你所資你願意給姓名嗎 |
| 00:05:26,500 | 00:05:28,500 | 你願意給他們的背景嗎 |
| 00:05:28,500 | 00:05:32,500 | 專家學者我們必須要徵詢他的意願 |
| 00:05:32,500 | 00:05:33,500 | 我跟你說 |
| 00:05:33,500 | 00:05:34,500 | 以前萊豬啦 |
| 00:05:34,500 | 00:05:35,500 | 核實啦 |
| 00:05:35,500 | 00:05:37,500 | 你們都開過很多專家學者會 |
| 00:05:37,500 | 00:05:39,500 | 你知道裡面有人是這個 |
| 00:05:39,500 | 00:05:41,500 | 我們現在的署長 |
| 00:05:41,500 | 00:05:42,500 | 江志剛 |
| 00:05:42,500 | 00:05:45,500 | 如果你有專家學者的背景 |
| 00:05:45,500 | 00:05:48,500 | 你為什麼沒有辦法在這個會議 |
| 00:05:48,500 | 00:05:51,500 | 出示你的名字跟你的專業背景 |
| 00:05:51,500 | 00:05:52,500 | 為什麼不行 |
| 00:05:52,500 | 00:05:53,500 | 請問是哪一條法條 |
| 00:05:53,500 | 00:05:56,500 | 你也把這個法條拿出來給我看一下 |
| 00:05:56,500 | 00:05:57,500 | 為什麼 |
| 00:05:57,500 | 00:05:59,500 | 陳其邁也很在意耶 |
| 00:06:00,500 | 00:06:01,500 | 我想 |
| 00:06:01,500 | 00:06:02,500 | 在 |
| 00:06:02,500 | 00:06:05,500 | 這個事件已經把它過度政治化 |
| 00:06:05,500 | 00:06:07,500 | 我們需要兩個會議紀錄 |
| 00:06:07,500 | 00:06:11,500 | 我們必須要讓這個委員不要受到其他的干擾 |
| 00:06:11,500 | 00:06:15,500 | 不然以後我們要這個重大決定的時候 |
| 00:06:15,500 | 00:06:16,500 | 這個是 |
| 00:06:16,500 | 00:06:18,500 | 我們會很難找到委員耶 |
| 00:06:18,500 | 00:06:20,500 | 這個是所有黨派都很在意的耶 |
| 00:06:20,500 | 00:06:22,500 | 今天是連陳其邁都說 |
| 00:06:22,500 | 00:06:24,500 | 把地方弄得一團亂 |
| 00:06:24,500 | 00:06:26,500 | 所有黨派都很在意是哪裡政治化 |
| 00:06:26,500 | 00:06:28,500 | 三個黨派都很在意的事情 |
| 00:06:28,500 | 00:06:30,500 | 這個都是大家初學證據 |
| 00:06:30,500 | 00:06:33,500 | 你拿出一個法條跟全民講 |
| 00:06:33,500 | 00:06:35,500 | 你為什麼要保護這些人的個資 |
| 00:06:35,500 | 00:06:36,500 | 為什麼 |
| 00:06:36,500 | 00:06:38,500 | 中聯公司的個資 |
| 00:06:38,500 | 00:06:40,500 | 這些專家訂出20%的個資 |
| 00:06:40,500 | 00:06:42,500 | 這個個資你為什麼要保護他們 |
| 00:06:42,500 | 00:06:46,500 | 這個專家的出席都是有相關的背景 |
| 00:06:46,500 | 00:06:47,500 | 我們這個都可以查的 |
| 00:06:47,500 | 00:06:48,500 | 所以你的意思是說 |
| 00:06:48,500 | 00:06:50,500 | 我等一下學資跟你要會議紀錄 |
| 00:06:50,500 | 00:06:52,500 | 你只會給我會議紀錄怎麼訂出來的 |
| 00:06:52,500 | 00:06:54,500 | 可是你不會告訴我是誰訂出來的 |
| 00:06:54,500 | 00:06:58,500 | 會議紀錄我們有委員所知我們已經提供了 |
| 00:06:59,500 | 00:07:01,500 | 但裡面有姓名嗎 |
| 00:07:01,500 | 00:07:03,500 | 這個姓名的部分我們希望能夠 |
| 00:07:03,500 | 00:07:04,500 | 那中聯是誰 |
| 00:07:04,500 | 00:07:06,500 | 再爭取過委員的意見 |
| 00:07:06,500 | 00:07:10,500 | 難怪你們一開始說業者也是受害者 |
| 00:07:10,500 | 00:07:14,500 | 受害者也被找去參加討論20%下大的會議 |
| 00:07:14,500 | 00:07:16,500 | 中聯絕對不是受害者 |
| 00:07:16,500 | 00:07:17,500 | 他是加害者 |
| 00:07:17,500 | 00:07:19,500 | 那一天主要是要 |
| 00:07:19,500 | 00:07:21,500 | 加害者你現在連名字都不能講 |
| 00:07:21,500 | 00:07:23,500 | 他提出要重新復工 |
| 00:07:23,500 | 00:07:25,500 | 我們進行審查之後 |
| 00:07:25,500 | 00:07:27,500 | 跟他講不能夠 |
| 00:07:27,500 | 00:07:29,500 | 是誰把他變得政治化 |
| 00:07:29,500 | 00:07:31,500 | 你連有一次六都開會 |
| 00:07:31,500 | 00:07:32,500 | 你都不能講 |
| 00:07:32,500 | 00:07:34,500 | 是誰把他變得政治化 |
| 00:07:34,500 | 00:07:37,500 | 你連有一次六都開會去污衊 |
| 00:07:37,500 | 00:07:40,500 | 桃園台中副市長你到現在還沒有道歉 |
| 00:07:40,500 | 00:07:41,500 | 錄音也不敢公布 |
| 00:07:41,500 | 00:07:43,500 | 是誰把他搞得很政治化 |
| 00:07:43,500 | 00:07:44,500 | 是你吧 |
| 00:07:44,500 | 00:07:46,500 | 我還是回到 |
| 00:07:46,500 | 00:07:48,500 | 這個食安就是科學的問題 |
| 00:07:48,500 | 00:07:52,500 | 那你要不要跟台中市桃園市副市長道歉 |
| 00:07:53,500 | 00:07:55,500 | 當時我已經道歉過了 |
| 00:07:55,500 | 00:07:57,500 | 我的記憶上沒有把它弄清楚 |
| 00:07:57,500 | 00:08:00,500 | 所以不用公布紀錄了 |
| 00:08:00,500 | 00:08:02,500 | 結果你後來回想起來他們也沒講 |
| 00:08:02,500 | 00:08:04,500 | 要不要公布紀錄不是我決定 |
| 00:08:04,500 | 00:08:05,500 | 這個是在行政院的院會 |
| 00:08:05,500 | 00:08:07,500 | 好中聯是誰 |
| 00:08:07,500 | 00:08:11,500 | 就是那個被收押的余總經理嗎 |
| 00:08:11,500 | 00:08:13,500 | 對阿 |
| 00:08:13,500 | 00:08:15,500 | 他已經被收押了 |
| 00:08:15,500 | 00:08:19,500 | 連檢方都認為他從頭到尾都有可能串正 |
| 00:08:19,500 | 00:08:21,500 | 從頭到尾都有可能說謊 |
| 00:08:21,500 | 00:08:25,500 | 然後你找他去討論我們20%要不要下架 |
| 00:08:26,500 | 00:08:29,500 | 他沒有參與討論20%的下架 |
| 00:08:29,500 | 00:08:31,500 | 他是來報告他的製程 |
| 00:08:31,500 | 00:08:35,500 | 然後我們的專家委員決定不能夠復工 |
| 00:08:35,500 | 00:08:37,500 | 他第一時間就應該要被收押 |
| 00:08:37,500 | 00:08:38,500 | 這是第一點 |
| 00:08:38,500 | 00:08:40,500 | 能不能要不要收押 |
| 00:08:40,500 | 00:08:42,500 | 第二點你把他講的那麼糟糕 |
| 00:08:42,500 | 00:08:46,500 | 從你一個月前的備詢把他講的這麼糟糕 |
| 00:08:46,500 | 00:08:47,500 | 你還把他找來列行 |
| 00:08:47,500 | 00:08:49,500 | 你就已經不相信他了 |
| 00:08:49,500 | 00:08:50,500 | 民眾也不相信他 |
| 00:08:50,500 | 00:08:53,500 | 你連他4月以前的郵有沒有出問題 |
| 00:08:53,500 | 00:08:54,500 | 你也講不出來 |
| 00:08:54,500 | 00:08:56,500 | 你還告訴我說他樣本都丟 |
| 00:08:56,500 | 00:08:58,500 | 他們提出要復工 |
| 00:08:58,500 | 00:09:00,500 | 我們當然要請他來報告 |
| 00:09:00,500 | 00:09:02,500 | 然後經過專家會議討論之後 |
| 00:09:02,500 | 00:09:04,500 | 決定不能復工 |
| 00:09:04,500 | 00:09:06,500 | 這個程序完全是正當 |
| 00:09:07,500 | 00:09:12,500 | 至於後面檢方發現這個中間有串供或者之餘去把他收押 |
| 00:09:12,500 | 00:09:14,500 | 那個是另外一件事情 |
| 00:09:14,500 | 00:09:15,500 | 好 再來 |
| 00:09:15,500 | 00:09:18,500 | 這個是不是行政疏失 |
| 00:09:18,500 | 00:09:21,500 | 我要求你行政調查一中內提供報告 |
| 00:09:21,500 | 00:09:24,500 | 因為你自己一開始也說怪怪的 |
| 00:09:24,500 | 00:09:25,500 | 聽到28%覺得怪怪 |
| 00:09:25,500 | 00:09:27,500 | 連你自己都覺得怪怪的 |
| 00:09:27,500 | 00:09:30,500 | 後來陳其邁也出來說怎麼會誰定出這20%的 |
| 00:09:30,500 | 00:09:33,500 | 這種事情你不用進入行政調查嗎 |
| 00:09:33,500 | 00:09:35,500 | 這個你要不要給我報告 |
| 00:09:35,500 | 00:09:37,500 | 第一個報告我是要跟他會議記錄 |
| 00:09:37,500 | 00:09:39,500 | 20%的會議記錄 |
| 00:09:39,500 | 00:09:41,500 | 這個是專家會議大家討論出的結果 |
| 00:09:41,500 | 00:09:44,500 | 你自己內部不用行政調查嗎 |
| 00:09:44,500 | 00:09:46,500 | 請問要調查什麼 |
| 00:09:46,500 | 00:09:48,500 | 你自己也說怪怪的 |
| 00:09:48,500 | 00:09:51,500 | 沒有 這個就是由專家會議討論出來 |
| 00:09:51,500 | 00:09:52,500 | 那你說陳其邁講出來 |
| 00:09:52,500 | 00:09:53,500 | 一開始 |
| 00:09:53,500 | 00:09:54,500 | 那你說嘛 |
| 00:09:54,500 | 00:09:59,500 | 106年我們從這個食品風險評估 |
| 00:09:59,500 | 00:10:00,500 | 不用了啦 |
| 00:10:00,500 | 00:10:02,500 | 上禮拜我就跟你討論過了 |
| 00:10:02,500 | 00:10:04,500 | 上禮拜你都說106年 |
| 00:10:04,500 | 00:10:06,500 | 我說那你也可以加嚴 |
| 00:10:06,500 | 00:10:07,500 | 加嚴可以定15% |
| 00:10:07,500 | 00:10:08,500 | 可以定10% |
| 00:10:08,500 | 00:10:09,500 | 你為什麼要定20% |
| 00:10:09,500 | 00:10:13,500 | 本來只有第一層下架 |
| 00:10:13,500 | 00:10:17,500 | 按照過去的專家諮議會的決定是第一層 |
| 00:10:17,500 | 00:10:19,500 | 所以這個7月4號的會議 |
| 00:10:19,500 | 00:10:22,500 | 其實專家的決定是加嚴的 |
| 00:10:23,500 | 00:10:25,500 | 10%就更加嚴 |
| 00:10:25,500 | 00:10:27,500 | 15%更加嚴 |
| 00:10:27,500 | 00:10:31,500 | 所有都是按照科學證據風險評估 |
| 00:10:31,500 | 00:10:33,500 | 由專家大家討論出來的建議 |
| 00:10:33,500 | 00:10:37,500 | 所以這個程序上都跟過去的程序一樣 |
| 00:10:37,500 | 00:10:39,500 | 即使我們後面要確認 |
| 00:10:39,500 | 00:10:41,500 | 程序上都跟過去的程序一樣 |
| 00:10:41,500 | 00:10:43,500 | 表示過去可以公布名單 |
| 00:10:43,500 | 00:10:44,500 | 現在也可以 |
| 00:10:44,500 | 00:10:46,500 | 萊豬也很有爭議 |
| 00:10:46,500 | 00:10:48,500 | 核食也很有爭議 |
| 00:10:48,500 | 00:10:51,500 | 大家每一個專家名單都坦蕩蕩的出來啦 |
| 00:10:51,500 | 00:10:53,500 | 我們詢問過專家之後 |
| 00:10:53,500 | 00:10:57,500 | 會來按照專家的意願來協助 |
| 00:10:57,500 | 00:10:58,500 | 我跟你說 |
| 00:10:58,500 | 00:11:00,500 | 如果你沒有要交行政調查報告 |
| 00:11:00,500 | 00:11:03,500 | 就表示陳其邁說的是錯的 |
| 00:11:03,500 | 00:11:04,500 | 那每一次質詢 |
| 00:11:04,500 | 00:11:06,500 | 我第一頁就會問你這個 |
| 00:11:06,500 | 00:11:07,500 | 我會做一個電子儀標板 |
| 00:11:07,500 | 00:11:10,500 | 你沒有要調查20%這個決策 |
| 00:11:10,500 | 00:11:11,500 | 滾動 |
| 00:11:11,500 | 00:11:14,500 | 滾到這麼多食物 |
| 00:11:14,500 | 00:11:15,500 | 本來都在加嚴 |
| 00:11:15,500 | 00:11:17,500 | 後來全部下架 |
| 00:11:17,500 | 00:11:20,500 | 這個行政責任沒有人要負責 |
| 00:11:21,500 | 00:11:22,500 | 你自己說 |
| 00:11:22,500 | 00:11:24,500 | 你上禮拜還說你會為人負責 |
| 00:11:24,500 | 00:11:28,500 | 所有的處理都是按照科學的證據 |
| 00:11:28,500 | 00:11:31,500 | 風險的評估動態的調整 |
| 00:11:31,500 | 00:11:32,500 | 任何事件都是這樣 |
| 00:11:32,500 | 00:11:33,500 | 沒關係 |
| 00:11:33,500 | 00:11:36,500 | 科學的證據你自己還會說自己乖乖的 |
| 00:11:36,500 | 00:11:38,500 | 然後後來陳其邁還會罵 |
| 00:11:38,500 | 00:11:40,500 | 那就表示說石崔堂是對的 |
| 00:11:40,500 | 00:11:41,500 | 陳其邁是錯的 |
| 00:11:41,500 | 00:11:44,500 | 我跟委員一樣都不是食品的專家 |
| 00:11:44,500 | 00:11:46,500 | 所以我們當然要尊重專家的決定 |
| 00:11:46,500 | 00:11:49,500 | 所以你的意思說陳其邁也不是食品的專家 |
| 00:11:49,500 | 00:11:50,500 | 所以他講錯了 |
| 00:11:50,500 | 00:11:51,500 | 我沒有辦法替他講 |
| 00:11:51,500 | 00:11:54,500 | 不需要有人去追究20%行政責任 |
| 00:11:55,500 | 00:11:57,500 | 這個都是按照程序走 |
| 00:11:57,500 | 00:11:59,500 | 我不認為這個是什麼行政責任 |
| 00:11:59,500 | 00:12:02,500 | 再來我們來看一下幾種 |
| 00:12:02,500 | 00:12:05,500 | 上禮拜有人在講到蘋果放寬容許值 |
| 00:12:05,500 | 00:12:07,500 | 我今天整理出不只蘋果 |
| 00:12:07,500 | 00:12:09,500 | 還有很多水果 |
| 00:12:09,500 | 00:12:11,500 | 以及大家每天都可能吃到的東西 |
| 00:12:11,500 | 00:12:14,500 | 居然在今年一下子放寬非常多 |
| 00:12:14,500 | 00:12:16,500 | 好這個我以前質詢過 |
| 00:12:16,500 | 00:12:17,500 | 113年 |
| 00:12:17,500 | 00:12:20,500 | 草莓邊境嵐下很多違規的草莓 |
| 00:12:20,500 | 00:12:26,500 | 後來食藥署那個月3月29就公布說要修正 |
| 00:12:26,500 | 00:12:28,500 | 容許值讓它高一點 |
| 00:12:28,500 | 00:12:30,500 | 4月1號就施行了 |
| 00:12:30,500 | 00:12:32,500 | 我從我開始質詢到現在 |
| 00:12:32,500 | 00:12:34,500 | 我全部再去找一遍 |
| 00:12:34,500 | 00:12:39,500 | 結果發現草莓一口氣開了12支農藥 |
| 00:12:39,500 | 00:12:43,500 | 其中11支標準根本沒有這項 |
| 00:12:43,500 | 00:12:45,500 | 也就是本來都是不得檢出的 |
| 00:12:45,500 | 00:12:48,500 | 然後也沒有任何申請人 |
| 00:12:48,500 | 00:12:50,500 | 是政府主動要申請的 |
| 00:12:50,500 | 00:12:52,500 | 這個跟王昱敏委員問到 |
| 00:12:52,500 | 00:12:53,500 | 還有一家一樣的 |
| 00:12:53,500 | 00:12:55,500 | 駐插化學 |
| 00:12:55,500 | 00:12:57,500 | 全部都是外國的機構 |
| 00:12:57,500 | 00:13:00,500 | 或者是外國的農藥公司提出申請 |
| 00:13:00,500 | 00:13:03,500 | 食藥署要做的是什麼 |
| 00:13:03,500 | 00:13:04,500 | 你每天跟我們要預算 |
| 00:13:04,500 | 00:13:07,500 | 說你們要加強去稽查 |
| 00:13:07,500 | 00:13:10,500 | 加強查出哪一些違規 |
| 00:13:10,500 | 00:13:12,500 | 結果你們做了什麼 |
| 00:13:12,500 | 00:13:14,500 | 你們是開放更多 |
| 00:13:14,500 | 00:13:18,500 | 本來零檢出的東西的容許值 |
| 00:13:18,500 | 00:13:20,500 | 這個你知道嗎 |
| 00:13:20,500 | 00:13:22,500 | 這個還是一句話 |
| 00:13:22,500 | 00:13:24,500 | 實案就是一個科學的問題 |
| 00:13:24,500 | 00:13:26,500 | 都要經過風險的評估 |
| 00:13:26,500 | 00:13:28,500 | 等一下我都幫你回答就好了 |
| 00:13:28,500 | 00:13:30,500 | 這邊又有好多專家 |
| 00:13:30,500 | 00:13:32,500 | 然後等一下再一份一份跟你要 |
| 00:13:32,500 | 00:13:34,500 | 然後你要再去跟專家問他們的名字 |
| 00:13:34,500 | 00:13:36,500 | 可不可以被公開 |
| 00:13:36,500 | 00:13:39,500 | 那等一下我幫你回答就好了 |
| 00:13:39,500 | 00:13:40,500 | 表示委員很清楚 |
| 00:13:40,500 | 00:13:43,500 | 我們看一下蘋果 |
| 00:13:43,500 | 00:13:45,500 | 這個王運銘委員問了 |
| 00:13:45,500 | 00:13:47,500 | 你一口氣放寬了六倍 |
| 00:13:47,500 | 00:13:49,500 | 我問你兩個問題就好了 |
| 00:13:49,500 | 00:13:54,500 | 裡面業者提供26場次的數據 |
| 00:13:54,500 | 00:13:55,500 | 22場不符 |
| 00:13:55,500 | 00:13:58,500 | 你們只用了4個場次的數據 |
| 00:13:58,500 | 00:14:00,500 | 這是第一個問題 |
| 00:14:00,500 | 00:14:02,500 | 他才4個場次 |
| 00:14:02,500 | 00:14:05,500 | 所有在訂這些標準的時候 |
| 00:14:05,500 | 00:14:07,500 | 不是簡單的加減乘除 |
| 00:14:07,500 | 00:14:11,500 | 他都是經過這個實驗上的收集數據 |
| 00:14:11,500 | 00:14:14,500 | 符合我們的要求標準 |
| 00:14:14,500 | 00:14:16,500 | 才能夠被採納的科學證據 |
| 00:14:16,500 | 00:14:18,500 | 所以即使是數字 |
| 00:14:18,500 | 00:14:20,500 | 他不是簡單的加減乘除 |
| 00:14:20,500 | 00:14:22,500 | 那你看第二個數字 |
| 00:14:22,500 | 00:14:24,500 | 最後你們用了4場 |
| 00:14:24,500 | 00:14:25,500 | 很荒謬的是26場 |
| 00:14:25,500 | 00:14:27,500 | 你們只用了4場數據 |
| 00:14:27,500 | 00:14:28,500 | 很怪 |
| 00:14:28,500 | 00:14:29,500 | 第二個 |
| 00:14:29,500 | 00:14:31,500 | 這個是我們採取嚴謹的 |
| 00:14:31,500 | 00:14:33,500 | 4場數據的殘留量 |
| 00:14:33,500 | 00:14:36,500 | 訂出來是0.48到1.125ppm |
| 00:14:36,500 | 00:14:39,500 | 你們把容許值修到3ppm |
| 00:14:39,500 | 00:14:40,500 | 你看看右邊 |
| 00:14:40,500 | 00:14:41,500 | 日本自己訂2 |
| 00:14:41,500 | 00:14:42,500 | 歐盟0.01 |
| 00:14:42,500 | 00:14:44,500 | 澳洲0.00 |
| 00:14:44,500 | 00:14:48,500 | 這個是用推估的方式去做出來的 |
| 00:14:48,500 | 00:14:51,500 | 但因為我們要設的是一個容許值 |
| 00:14:51,500 | 00:14:53,500 | 不是一個絕對值 |
| 00:14:53,500 | 00:14:58,500 | 同一個分譜你回去看一下 |
| 00:14:58,500 | 00:14:59,500 | 第一個 |
| 00:14:59,500 | 00:15:04,500 | 26場數據你用了4場數據 |
| 00:15:04,500 | 00:15:05,500 | 冰桃 |
| 00:15:05,500 | 00:15:08,500 | 6個場數據你用了6個場數據 |
| 00:15:10,500 | 00:15:11,500 | 沒有我們就是看看 |
| 00:15:11,500 | 00:15:13,500 | 你的一切依照科學的標準 |
| 00:15:13,500 | 00:15:15,500 | 每一頁要回答到哪一頁 |
| 00:15:15,500 | 00:15:17,500 | 再來葡萄 |
| 00:15:17,500 | 00:15:19,500 | 這個也是全部都是食藥署的資料 |
| 00:15:19,500 | 00:15:21,500 | 食藥署裡面會有一個資料會講說 |
| 00:15:21,500 | 00:15:24,500 | 每一個農藥可能造成什麼影響 |
| 00:15:24,500 | 00:15:26,500 | 然後根據國際的標準 |
| 00:15:26,500 | 00:15:27,500 | 是什麼樣 |
| 00:15:27,500 | 00:15:29,500 | 這個是葡萄 |
| 00:15:29,500 | 00:15:32,500 | 葡萄裡面講了一個亞派戰 |
| 00:15:32,500 | 00:15:35,500 | 他說美國環保署劃分為 |
| 00:15:35,500 | 00:15:38,500 | likely to be carcinogenic |
| 00:15:38,500 | 00:15:40,500 | 癌症專家走了 |
| 00:15:40,500 | 00:15:43,500 | 有可能會致癌的意思 |
| 00:15:43,500 | 00:15:45,500 | 有可能會致癌 |
| 00:15:45,500 | 00:15:48,500 | 你本來這裡面根本是零檢出的 |
| 00:15:48,500 | 00:15:51,500 | 也是因為有人提出申請 |
| 00:15:51,500 | 00:15:53,500 | 你把它開放到4ppm |
| 00:15:53,500 | 00:15:54,500 | 這邊 |
| 00:15:55,500 | 00:15:56,500 | 你講說 |
| 00:15:56,500 | 00:15:57,500 | 所有的 |
| 00:15:57,500 | 00:16:01,500 | 你大概不了解這整個的制定的程序 |
| 00:16:01,500 | 00:16:02,500 | 第一個呢 |
| 00:16:02,500 | 00:16:05,500 | 這所有的農藥是有人施用的時候 |
| 00:16:05,500 | 00:16:07,500 | 我們才會去訂定 |
| 00:16:07,500 | 00:16:09,500 | 我們不會一下子把所有的農藥 |
| 00:16:09,500 | 00:16:12,500 | 通通拿來訂標準 |
| 00:16:12,500 | 00:16:13,500 | 一定要有人施用 |
| 00:16:13,500 | 00:16:16,500 | 有施用我們才會進入科學評估 |
| 00:16:16,500 | 00:16:18,500 | 科學評估的數據 |
| 00:16:18,500 | 00:16:21,500 | 必須含納了健康風險評估 |
| 00:16:21,500 | 00:16:24,500 | 跟施重的方式 |
| 00:16:24,500 | 00:16:26,500 | 以及當地的疾病 |
| 00:16:26,500 | 00:16:29,500 | 這些農作物的疾病相關的風險 |
| 00:16:29,500 | 00:16:32,500 | 以及人體的食用的 |
| 00:16:32,500 | 00:16:34,500 | 我等一下列給你 |
| 00:16:34,500 | 00:16:37,500 | 你13年到15年開放了多少 |
| 00:16:37,500 | 00:16:38,500 | 第一風險評估 |
| 00:16:38,500 | 00:16:39,500 | 你剛剛講的很好 |
| 00:16:39,500 | 00:16:42,500 | 我們的風險評估只有訂19到65歲 |
| 00:16:42,500 | 00:16:44,500 | 60公斤成年人每天的 |
| 00:16:44,500 | 00:16:47,500 | 這個攝取的習慣等等訂出來的 |
| 00:16:47,500 | 00:16:49,500 | 你回去翻 |
| 00:16:49,500 | 00:16:51,500 | 你114年你放開的 |
| 00:16:51,500 | 00:16:53,500 | 櫻桃你有寫 |
| 00:16:53,500 | 00:16:55,500 | 其他族群應該是脆弱族群 |
| 00:16:55,500 | 00:16:57,500 | 小朋友或老人的意思 |
| 00:16:57,500 | 00:16:59,500 | 蘋果你就沒分 |
| 00:16:59,500 | 00:17:01,500 | 你也沒告訴我們為什麼 |
| 00:17:01,500 | 00:17:04,500 | 你也沒告訴我們為什麼每一種水果 |
| 00:17:04,500 | 00:17:05,500 | 標準不一樣 |
| 00:17:05,500 | 00:17:06,500 | 場次不一樣 |
| 00:17:06,500 | 00:17:08,500 | 或者是沒有根據不同的族群的 |
| 00:17:08,500 | 00:17:10,500 | 食用習慣去訂出來 |
| 00:17:10,500 | 00:17:12,500 | 今年最誇張 |
| 00:17:12,500 | 00:17:14,500 | 174項 |
| 00:17:14,500 | 00:17:16,500 | 有173項是加寬 |
| 00:17:16,500 | 00:17:18,500 | 容許值放寬 |
| 00:17:18,500 | 00:17:20,500 | 只有一項是向下調降 |
| 00:17:20,500 | 00:17:21,500 | 就是我剛剛講的櫻桃 |
| 00:17:21,500 | 00:17:23,500 | 你覺得有脆弱族群特定族群 |
| 00:17:23,500 | 00:17:26,500 | 可能短期內食用非常多 |
| 00:17:26,500 | 00:17:28,500 | 而這173項 |
| 00:17:28,500 | 00:17:30,500 | 158是不得減出的 |
| 00:17:30,500 | 00:17:32,500 | 現在它有容許值了 |
| 00:17:32,500 | 00:17:34,500 | 15項是往上提高的 |
| 00:17:34,500 | 00:17:37,500 | 然後更誇張的 |
| 00:17:37,500 | 00:17:41,500 | 113年跟今年是你開放最多放寬的 |
| 00:17:41,500 | 00:17:43,500 | 我看了一下左邊 |
| 00:17:43,500 | 00:17:44,500 | 全部都是我們都會吃的喔 |
| 00:17:44,500 | 00:17:46,500 | 蘋果草莓柳橙 |
| 00:17:46,500 | 00:17:48,500 | 柑橘類 |
| 00:17:48,500 | 00:17:49,500 | 茶 |
| 00:17:49,500 | 00:17:51,500 | 然後你看最右邊 |
| 00:17:51,500 | 00:17:53,500 | 驗出及違規的國家有這麼多 |
| 00:17:53,500 | 00:17:56,500 | 你在這一個月的備詢裡面 |
| 00:17:56,500 | 00:17:58,500 | 你掛在嘴上的就是 |
| 00:17:58,500 | 00:18:01,500 | 一切以風險評估專家科學理性 |
| 00:18:01,500 | 00:18:03,500 | 接軌國際 |
| 00:18:03,500 | 00:18:07,500 | 人家有的東西你都有你接軌了 |
| 00:18:07,500 | 00:18:09,500 | 人家沒有的東西你放寬了 |
| 00:18:09,500 | 00:18:11,500 | 你這樣叫接軌嗎 |
| 00:18:11,500 | 00:18:13,500 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:18:13,500 | 00:18:15,500 | 台灣不是一個農糧 |
| 00:18:15,500 | 00:18:17,500 | 是一個可以完全自給自足的國家 |
| 00:18:17,500 | 00:18:19,500 | 所以我們必須要有進口 |
| 00:18:19,500 | 00:18:22,500 | 所以各國對於農藥的施作不同 |
| 00:18:22,500 | 00:18:25,500 | 所以我們才會依據科學的標準 |
| 00:18:25,500 | 00:18:28,500 | 然後參考了其他世界上的國家 |
| 00:18:28,500 | 00:18:31,500 | 然後去召開專家會議去評估定出 |
| 00:18:31,500 | 00:18:33,500 | 驗出及違規這些不是 |
| 00:18:33,500 | 00:18:36,500 | 這些國家你不參考了喔 |
| 00:18:36,500 | 00:18:38,500 | 美國、歐盟、澳洲 |
| 00:18:38,500 | 00:18:40,500 | 你常常放寬 |
| 00:18:40,500 | 00:18:42,500 | 就掛在嘴巴上的國家 |
| 00:18:42,500 | 00:18:44,500 | 國內沒有用、國外會用 |
| 00:18:44,500 | 00:18:46,500 | 我們就會去訂 |
| 00:18:46,500 | 00:18:49,500 | 這就是為國人的健康標準把關 |
| 00:18:49,500 | 00:18:53,500 | 然後也讓食物能夠足夠供應國人 |
| 00:18:53,500 | 00:18:55,500 | 大家看到這張表只會知道說 |
| 00:18:55,500 | 00:18:57,500 | 我知道為什麼了 |
| 00:18:57,500 | 00:18:59,500 | 原來曬太陽也有風險 |
| 00:18:59,500 | 00:19:00,500 | 喝水也有風險 |
| 00:19:00,500 | 00:19:02,500 | 然後我們訂出來的容許值 |
| 00:19:02,500 | 00:19:04,500 | 居然其他國家是沒有的 |
| 00:19:04,500 | 00:19:05,500 | 最後 |
| 00:19:05,500 | 00:19:08,500 | 我們這個都是累積的計算方式 |
| 00:19:08,500 | 00:19:10,500 | 去提出來的科學標準 |
| 00:19:10,500 | 00:19:12,500 | 第一個所知我要20%的會議紀錄 |
| 00:19:12,500 | 00:19:16,500 | 第二次我要你們訂出這些標準 |
| 00:19:16,500 | 00:19:18,500 | 誰可以修改申請 |
| 00:19:18,500 | 00:19:20,500 | 申請有什麼條件 |
| 00:19:20,500 | 00:19:22,500 | 審查要用什麼基準 |
| 00:19:22,500 | 00:19:24,500 | 還有審查委員跟申請人 |
| 00:19:24,500 | 00:19:26,500 | 有沒有利害關係要不要揭露 |
| 00:19:26,500 | 00:19:28,500 | 這些東西我們會跟你要 |
| 00:19:28,500 | 00:19:30,500 | 我們過去都有標準 |
| 00:19:30,500 | 00:19:32,500 | 我們會發文跟你要 |
| 00:19:32,500 | 00:19:34,500 | 至於行政責任的話 |
| 00:19:34,500 | 00:19:38,500 | 我們也會每天訂20% |
| 00:19:38,500 | 00:19:40,500 | 這個行政調查報告 |
| 00:19:40,500 | 00:19:42,500 | 到底什麼時候會產出 |
| 00:19:42,500 | 00:19:44,500 | 我們會做一個電子儀表板 |
| 00:19:44,500 | 00:19:46,500 | 讓全國人知道原來 |
| 00:19:46,500 | 00:19:48,500 | 三天內五天內修改政策 |
| 00:19:48,500 | 00:19:50,500 | 無數次官員是不用負責的 |
| 00:19:50,500 | 00:19:52,500 | 也不用交報告的 |
| 00:19:52,500 | 00:19:54,500 | 這個我們也會訂 |
| 00:19:54,500 | 00:19:56,500 | 等一下就跟你所知謝謝 |
| 00:19:56,500 | 00:19:58,500 | 這個完全按照我們過去的程序在進行 |
| 00:19:58,500 | 00:20:00,500 | 我想沒有什麼問題 |
| 00:20:00,500 | 00:20:02,500 | 好謝謝陳金輝委員發言 |
| 00:20:02,500 | 00:20:04,500 | 接下來請邱惠祿委員發言 |