| IVOD_ID |
17071 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17071 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-26T08:35:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-26T14:06:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:30:27 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685ebe75ddd41b8471ac8d57d4fb8c0103085db5c09cad80ab7cd547b3bf71512275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部及環境部就「蘇丹紅化學原料竄臺，政府如何強化進口把關及後市場查驗，以維護國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請衛生福利部部長、司法院、法務部、勞動部及內政部警政署就「國內醫師、護理人力需求及分布暨防止醫療暴力措施及改善情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
(討論事項)
審查
一、委員柯志恩等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
三、委員王育敏等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
四、委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「醫療法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
六、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
七、委員邱若華等17人擬具「醫療法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
八、委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
九、委員魯明哲等18人擬具「醫療法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十、委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十一、委員林淑芬等25人擬具「醫療法增訂第一百條之一條文草案」案。
十二、委員盧縣一等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十三、委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十四、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
【第十四案，如經復議，則不予審查】【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:33 - 14:06:00 |
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包委會出席委員13人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 謝謝 現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年11月24日星期一9時至13時12分 地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭姿等15人列席委員鄭委員天才等8人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1484.634 |
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1505.923 |
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列席官員環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況並被質詢邀請環境部部長就聯合國第30屆氣候峰會之後臺灣氣候治理方向與如何提升臺灣氣候變遷績效指標名次 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1508.704 |
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1536.494 |
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落實二零五零淨零排放路徑策略進行專題報告並被質詢本次會議業務報告及專題報告採綜合詢答由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等十九人提出質詢均經環境部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員張雅玲及陳培宇所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆 |
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1536.934 |
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1544.983 |
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委員另要求期限者從期鎖定 宣讀完畢好 請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1546.226 |
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1569.836 |
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沒有謝謝那我們就意思都確定本會議議程為第一邀請衛福部部長財政部及環境部就蘇丹紅化學原料竄台政府如何強化進口把關及後市場查驗以維護國人健康安全進行專題報告並被質詢邀請衛福部部長司法院法務部勞動部及內政部警政署就國內醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1571.537 |
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1599.6 |
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護理人力需求及分布及防止醫療暴力措施及改善情形進行專題報告並備諮詢第三審查醫療法第24條第100條之一及第106條條文修正草案及實施案以上專題報告及討論事項採綜合詢答那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員第一位是陳昭之陳委員 |
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1603.178 |
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1631.789 |
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第二位是陳清輝陳委員第三位是林月琴林委員第四位是王振旭王委員第五位是林淑恩林委員那歷史官員是衛福部部長施崇良還有食藥署署長江志剛謝謝那中央健康保險署署長陳亮瑜 |
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1633.789 |
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1661.067 |
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謝謝還有醫事師師長劉悅平護理及健康照護師師長蔡石鳳心理健康師副師長鄭淑欣還有財政部關路署主任秘書蔣蕙君科長李宗憲環境部化學物質管理署署長蔡夢玉司法院刑事廳副廳長顧正德法官黃湘瑩 |
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1664.045 |
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1687.962 |
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法務部參事汪蘭君主任檢察官蔡延珍對不起 蔡延珍主任檢察官勞動部職業安全衛生署副署長李文進勞動條件及就業評等師專門委員李怡萱內政部警政署行政署組長廖才珍謝謝科長兵介麗 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1690.289 |
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1704.261 |
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還有刑事局科長戴禪生謝謝接著我們請提案委員說明提案料子每位委員兩分鐘那第一位請林議員來做提案說明 |
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1736.117 |
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各位委員還有會代表大家早今天我提出醫療法的第24條跟106條的修正草案要處理的是一件全社會都很焦慮的事情醫療暴力事實上是沒有減少還在增加那衛福部最新資料顯示近4年的醫療暴力事件每年都超過250件 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1738.958 |
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1759.886 |
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113年更突破400件这趋势非常的明确现在法治上是没有让医疗更安全这一年大家也看到了急诊室被推撞病房被恐吓救护员在现场被阻挠很多医护说一句最无奈的话就是不知道下一个被打的是不是我这不是情绪而是法律的保护力不够 |
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1760.966 |
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1785.706 |
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所以這次的修法重點我提出三件事情第一個是要把保護對象講清楚現行條文只寫就醫安全 太模糊要保護的是所有醫事人員以及所有來就醫的人無論是醫師 護理 藥師 心理 復健也包括病人 陪病 任何接觸醫療的人因此我們把條文修成是醫事人員及就醫人員的安全 |
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1786.787 |
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1813.045 |
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第二事實上是警察不能等一下 要馬上到所以現行法律沒寫時效 只說排除或制止但醫療暴力事實上是分秒再升高的拖五分鐘就是另一件案件所以我們甄列警察應急赴現場這是醫療院所最需要的資源第三刑度要有層次才能嚇阻現行刑法有兩個問題下限太低 完全沒有嚇阻的一個效果在 |
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1813.685 |
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1840.466 |
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另外跟刑法交諜 定罪反而不容易所以這次做出調整 明確規範損毀保命設備對醫護施暴 妨礙救護的一個刑罰另外如果造成醫護重傷或死亡 刑度提高5年以上10年以上 這樣設計我認為才能夠提供保護現場的基礎所以甘請各位委員能夠支持 以上謝謝好 謝謝 |
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1845.069 |
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1858.629 |
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接下来请陈清辉委员来做提案说明谢谢主席安排今天这样子的法案审查 |
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1859.825 |
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1878.986 |
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那這個是昨天早上發生的事情我也在這邊播放給大家看但昨天深夜在網路上引起了非常多的討論他是一個軍醫院所發生的兩名院外的人士他衝進來以後就挾持了警衛挾持警衛在直衝病房 |
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1880.687 |
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1897.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個事件的英雄雖然我們說他是英雄可是我們希望保護他們我們也不想要再看到這樣子的事情再發生其中一位是護理師另外一位是護佐迅速的反應為了保護所有住院病人的安全可是他們兩個受傷非常慘重 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1898.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1913.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那有一位呢護理師他因為肋骨挫傷還有被辣椒水噴灑眼睛另外一位護佐是被這個兩位衝進來其中一位是男性的院外人士摳眼顯些失明這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1913.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1937.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
昨天所發生的案例但今天呢我們再來找這篇文章他說他有被關切所以他暫時先下架可是他真的很感謝大家的關心不過我們今天來這邊不是為了純關心我們希望透過修法可以保護所有的醫事人員之後都不用再受到暴力的威脅那除了這個案件我想我光是講今年11月輔大的江漢生教授看診的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1938.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1956.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就被一名男子持手弓刀砍殺五月的時候一位女性的牙醫洗牙被患者痛歐差點失明六月的時候內湖三種72歲的病患拿著遙控器攻擊三名護理師這些醫事人員到底是在救人還是在受罪我們在幫助人的時候誰來救他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1958.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1981.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
剛講到這個醫療暴力事件節節上升他是從111年的260件一直到現在443件但真正起訴的比例不到五成平均判刑大家會覺得很荒唐兩到三個月顯示現行的法定刑度還有量刑實務上沒有充分的嚇阻力所以本次我的修法是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1983.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1988.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
要訂出一個下線比如說毀損醫療設備致生命危險從30萬以下罰金修訂為3萬以上30萬以下罰金還有強暴脅迫恐嚇非法方法妨礙醫療還有救護者修正為除5年以下6個月以上的有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2000.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2029.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
尤其是現在急診醫事人員極度缺乏的狀況下在這麼高壓的環境也是最容易發生醫療暴力的場域之一所以我們希望透過這次的修法絕對不容忍有任何暴力發生在醫療的場域更無法接受任何醫事人員在拼命拯救性命的時候要為自己的人身安全擔憂那假使未來有人想在這樣子的場域打人傷人我們一定會讓他們付出代價謝謝謝謝昭緯排案好 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2034.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2037.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
謝謝陳經緯的提案說明 接下來請林淑穩來做提案說明對 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2052.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2067.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
各位大家早安這個現行刑事訴訟法第208條第二項在去年的5月1號修正而且公佈施行那它的理由就是說為了強化鑒定制度的程序保障嚴謹這個證據法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2071.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2087.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
讓我國的鑑定制度更為完善要求機關實施鑑定的自然人應准用第202條鑑定前拒絕而且要在記載鑑定經過及其結果的書面報告上也要具名以事負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2088.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2111.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
到時候要作為病例作為判斷其是否具備鑑定資格的依據及擔保鑑定或審查程序的專業性和公正性但是過去我們都知道在這個制度施行以前大概有八成以上的醫療糾紛鑑定案件都是委由醫省會的醫事鑑定小組執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2112.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2119.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那這個醫審會它的第一個初審的醫生所鑑定的這個初審報告事實上經過醫審會的合議制是可以修改的而且也老是被修改過所以你叫醫審會這樣的合議制所出具的鑑定報告要由誰來具名到時候誰要出席這個法院的開庭到時候誰要去負責這個結論交叉辯論 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2140.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2151.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
對醫生來講他們覺得非常的不可行但修法的過程衛福部就屢屢跟司法院講了但是司法院仍然一意孤行非過不可在這種狀況裡面所以修法師 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2155.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2177.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
公布施行以後呢就造成啊這個醫生非常大的壓力也沒有個人醫師想要去除了醫神會以外醫院醫學中心個別醫師也可以進行醫療糾紛的鑑定但是到目前為止都沒有人要去做鑑定沒有人要去具名沒有人想要上法庭去交叉結辯在這種狀況裡面這一年半以來幾乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2182.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2205.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
幾乎所有的醫療糾紛包括醫美診所醫死人的包括你這個開刀手術有出錯的你要問責你要對醫院提告你要對醫師提告事實上第一個就是要鑑定責任在誰可是因為沒有人鑑定醫院會退回了所有檢查機關送來的所有的鑑定所以啊數百案 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2207.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2212.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
一年半以來通通都是停擺在那裡在這種狀況裡面醫生他們認為說個人拒絕造成日後訴訟壓力名譽風險而且還怕說受到關說請託同樣也有可能是醫師同跑來關說也可能是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2227.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2233.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
病患家屬來關說所以他們更怕騷擾和報復所以有心理壓力在這種狀況裡面醫生本身為醫他的本業是醫療照護現行的臨床業務已十分龐大其實大家都寧願選擇獨善其身而不想要去負荷出庭的責任所以在這種狀況裡面對於病患訴訟的權利影響非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2256.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2274.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我不見得支持這個衛福部這些醫生不一定支持他們這樣做可是我也不見得反對司法院這麼的修法但是目前的窘境目前的現況就是一年半了整個國家醫療糾紛的刑事訴訟司法訴訟民事訴訟通通都停擺 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2281.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2283.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
在這種狀況裡面 問了司法院你到底要怎麼解決 他們不提出任何的解決方法協調了一次 跨院協調司法院跟行政部門不斷的協調但是一年半了 我已經質詢一年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2297.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2327.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
通通都没有人愿意提出一个可行的解决的方法出来所以这个拒绝鉴定还有医疗纠纷的案件的迟滞所产生的负面效益已经严重了违及到司法运作和民众正当法律程序透过正当的法律程序要寻求正义对于疫病双方的权益真实的发现及诉讼的促进通通都没有办法进行 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2327.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2341.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以我才毅然的覺得我們是不是就回到過去的樣子就好了所以我們才提這個案子來希望說為了保重民眾的權益維護這個實質的正義而不是在那裡舉著高旗舉著大旗說司法制度就是要這樣改才有正義就才能負責才能夠這個拒絕才有這個專業才能夠問責沒有錯可以問責可是現在停擺一年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2357.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2382.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
問責個屁啊 所以在這裡都沒有人願意出來解決他說什麼問責 你們告訴我怎麼解決今天司法院也報告也寫了他們說啊 他們不是很同意 但是呢基本上為了紓解目前食物運作的困境 就是我剛才講的所以他尊重我們 如果我們大家覺得可以 他尊重我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2386.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2407.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這講廢話 因為如果大家都同意了 他也非這樣子不可可是這一年半來 司法機關 行政衛福部你們到底端給人民什麼解決的方法了沒有那現在因為醫療死亡 醫療的過程不管是怎麼樣死亡的 重傷的 或者是失去功能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2408.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2430.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他們到現在他們的正義誰還給他們在這種狀況裡面我可能請大家這是一個嚴肅的議題如果司法院這樣子沒有他尊重我們的話就請大家支持我們回到原來的樣態我們沒有矯枉過正就只是回到原來的樣態先行運行先行運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2430.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2442.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那有問題再繼續再討論否則的話一年半了成百上千件的醫療糾紛案件完全沒有辦法進行這太離譜了好 謝謝接下來請羅廷偉委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2457.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2484.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好 謝謝昭偉排審 非常感謝昭偉醫療暴力的問題 我想剛剛陳慶威委員有提到一件這絕對不是個案 這也絕對不是近期的少數案件醫療暴力的問題是這幾年我們看到一直層出不窮儘管立法院多次的關心 多次的去想辦法亡羊補牢但我們看到媒體常常都有這樣子相關的一個報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2486.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2500.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這些報導都只是冰山一角因為我們相信有更多的都還沒有透過媒體所展現出來不論急診病房各式醫療單位我們看到的實際上暴力威脅醫護人員多不勝數 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2502.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2519.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
為什麼醫護的真心卻換來了絕情從出生到死亡醫療是人一生最重要的一個依靠我們對醫療的依賴卻連對醫療人員一個提供安全的一個醫療職業環境的回報都做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2520.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2540.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
近年來我們看到全國的醫療暴力通報的案件居高不下2019年到2023年每年平均是250件現行的法令對於醫療暴力雖然有規範但是真的能夠嚇死嗎看到這些案件數我們就知道根本就是不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2541.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2557.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
難以有效的去將這些防範於未然甚至嚇阻這類事件所以在這一次整個我們希望能夠拟據醫療法第24條106條條文修正草案修法的兩大重點是強化通報執法的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2559.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2582.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
更能夠希望警察能夠接獲通報以後立即到場排除並直接逮捕現行犯提升緊急的一個效率我們更希望提高行政的罰環跟刑事的責任違法者罰環提升到5萬以上15萬以下刑責上限的提高加重因暴力妨害致死的一個刑度 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2583.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2606.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
希望透過修法的一個手段有效嚇阻更減少醫療暴力的事件提高醫院跟醫事人員的一個職場安全感醫護人員守護每一條生命的時候我們應該做他們最重要的靠山國家有責任守護這些照顧生命的英雄以上謝謝 再一次感謝趙偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2609.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2622.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 謝謝羅委員的提案報告那接下來委員會在這邊做一個報告跟說明 我們等一下會請兩個機關來做報告跟說明 那第一位我們先請衛福部石部長來併案報告及說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2631.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2644.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席還有各位委員感謝大院安排今天的專案報告跟條文的審查本部就蘇丹紅的化學原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2647.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2671.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那麼政府如何強化把關跟後市長查驗以及國內的醫師護理人力需求及醫療暴力的防止措施等改善情形那麼提出書面報告那以下呢先以口頭呢做重點的說明那第一個是有關於本次蘇東蘇丹紅的化學原料那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2673.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2688.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
查緝到從中國製的化妝品了解到可能有新加坡商的原料輸入國內的情形所以因此我們食藥署主動進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2692.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2710.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那麼通知相關的這個化妝品的工協會跟業者呢那麼先行預防性的下架那麼同時呢會同衛生局來稽查這個進口商易紅企業那麼所含有這個禁用 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2711.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2733.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
色素苏丹红4号的3P的化学原料掌握流向之后查核检验同时公开资讯到目前为止共有12家业者20项产品涉及使用到禁用色素因此目前已经 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2734.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2763.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
也将这个进口商呢给予严惩那么罚款五百万那最高罚金那同时也移送减掉那么进行后续责任的这个追罚那么同时呢也在这个检验的部分呢公布了这个检验的方式那么强化这个业者的自主管理跟完善整个化妆品的管理制度来确保呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2764.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2780.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
这个化妆品市场的安全保障消费者的健康那么第二个呢是有关于国内的医师护理人力的需求跟分布的问题那么我们在医师的人力的部分呢是才叫好训用 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2781.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2800.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
定期有進行人力的推估對於人數的培育做管控 避免失衡另外在因應人口老化的護理需求也一樣有進行護理人力的推估 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2801.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2826.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那麼更從112年開始跟教育部等各相關的部會來推動護理人力政策的12項策略那麼以今年的這個人力的情形已經較去年同期增加大概4900位左右的護理人力那麼相較於疫情之前已經有慢慢這個回流到過去疫情前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2827.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2845.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個水準那我們會持續的來努力營造正向的職業環境那麼推動這個職場友善那麼促進護理人員的回流跟留任提升醫療照護品質至於在這個醫療暴力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2847.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2859.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
防止錯失跟改善的部分為了保障醫護人員的職業與就業安全在民國103年的時候有修正過醫療法第24條及106條 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2862.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2879.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那麼規定任何人不得以強迫 脅迫 恐嚇公然侮辱或其他非法之方法來妨礙醫療業務之執行同時在106條明定相關的刑事責任跟罰金那麼另一方面除了修法之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2879.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2903.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那麼我們也採取了多項的措施包含建立這個醫療暴力的應變流程和通報機制那麼也跟高檢署來合作希望能夠提高司法判決的起訴率那同時也委請了台北市醫師公會那麼來制定了醫療暴力的防範跟緊急處理流程等經驗那麼同時請各 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2907.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2934.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
縣市的衛生局來督導所轄的醫院要建立起暴力事件的防範應變小組來保障所有醫護人員的安全同時一旦發生的時候也要透過標準的流程跟檢警一起配合偵辦來保障醫療場所的秩序跟安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2936.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2949.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
至於在本次修法有多位委員提出希望更加重法律的嚇阻力本部委員對於醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2953.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2967.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
人員的這種安全的維護呢那麼非常的贊同我們也重申了任何的醫療暴力的發生都是不被允許的所以我們會尊重那麼大院的審查審議結果那麼另外呢在醫療法 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2969.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2995.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個增訂100條之一的條文的部分那誠如這個提案林淑芬委員所說明的那麼在這個刑事訴訟法113年5月修正之後那麼要求這個鑑定機關實施鑑定的自然人要拒絕同時要這個出庭接受這個詢問結問等要求那麼造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2996.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3013.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那麼很多的醫師不願意來接受這個委託鑑定那麼本部則是先從今年的5月開始那麼跟法務部合作先以出具這個醫療專業意見書的方式來協助檢調那麼進行這個偵辦過程當中的專業意見的提供但是此舉能無法 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3022.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3049.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
解決進入到刑事訴訟所需的鑑定要求那因此呢那麼有關委員提出那麼回歸到這個在刑事訴訟法這個修法之前本部這個醫療鑑定的這個醫事審議委員會是以委員會名義所出具的鑑定書方式那免除以個人自然人名義出具的方式呢本部 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3050.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3077.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個競表支持不過那仍然無法免除這個在新的刑事訴訟法當中對於鑑定人那麼要求這個出庭那麼接受詢問 結問等等的這一些程序的排除那麼如果未來在這個審查這個條文這個主條討論的時候呢那麼我們本部會再提出相關的建議那麼希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3078.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3101.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那麼透過這個修法呢那麼讓這個這個醫療糾紛的這個法治的程序當中能夠順利的進行也保障這個民眾的權益以上好謝謝石部長的報告及說明下一位請環境部報告時間5分鐘有請化學物質管理署蔡孟裕署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3114.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3134.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家早安大家好感謝大院今天安排有關有關蘇丹色素的一個專案的報告那以下環境部就針對蘇丹色素的一個管理的情形他已經提出了書面報告那就則要進行一個口頭的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3136.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3157.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
有關第一部分有關列管的一個背景那這個部分有關化學物質的一個目前在國內都是由各個部會依照相關的職長跟法令來分工管理那各部會就管理的目的特性管制的必要性等等那訂定相關的一個管制的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3158.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3182.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那第二部分有關這個管理的現況蘇丹色素目前為本部列管毒化物第四類的一個毒性化學物質在這個系列裡面總共有八種管制的濃度為1%不管是製造輸入販賣使用儲存等行為運作前都要取得核可的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3183.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3202.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
如果以现在苏丹3号跟4号为例,今年的11月24号总共有69家的业者取得了运作的核可文件,相关的一个详细的一个各自的分布请参阅书面的资料。 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3203.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3232.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那在114年我們也統計了實際實際有運作的這個3號跟4號的總共有27家這個部分均為少量的運作大概都是使用在檢測上面的這一些的一個標準品所以不管是輸入販賣跟使用大概都是像輸入有28克販賣有54克使用有53克等等都是屬於少量的一個使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3234.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3252.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那第三部分有關蘇丹色素的查核的部分那我們大概每年環境部都會訂定有關毒性及關注化學物質的這個溝基的查核的計畫那請地方的環保單位來進行有關這個毒性化學物質的查核那 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3253.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3272.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
截至114年10月31號那針對書單3號跟4號那總共查核了有131件違規的件數有總共有4件那大概都是沒有依規定來標示或者是在運作前沒有取得核可的文件已經進行了採取 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3274.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3299.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
第四部分有關於跨部會的聯合的稽查我們依照行政院食品安全聯合稽查的專案小組第47次的決議那由化學署跟食藥署那以及地方的環保衛生單位我們在今年執行了具有著色用途的食安風險的這一個毒性化學物質的一個專案的一個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3300.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3319.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那期程是今年的6月到9月那特別針對像蘇丹色素等等有7種具有著色用途的毒性化學物質來進行有關的稽查那總共列出有45家有疑慮的那這裡面大概有15家是屬於食品業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3321.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3343.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們查核之後總共有4家有運作疏單射速那這4家全部都是實驗室的檢驗檢驗的一個使用並沒有發現有違反讀管法的情形第5部分是邊境的管理那有關進出口的貨物按照10道的貨物的這個部分分別 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3343.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3368.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
依包裝用途等等歸類為適當的貨品分類的一個號列這個部分在海關這邊都有相關的這個規定那因此在這些貨品的主管機關為了規範相關的進口的這個事務就會依照這個進口的規範來協助海關來進行相關的查核比如說毒性化學物質是歸到553 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3370.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3380.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那食品及食品添加物是歸到508的規範去那這個分別就是由化學署以及衛福部這邊來依照相關的規定來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3382.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3407.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那最後有關於我們105年開始就透過食安五環的政策第一個第一有關源頭的這個管理我們也陸續公告了有27種這個具食安風險的這個毒性及關注化學物質未來會持續的來精進源頭跟系統的這個管理那適時的來擴大來公告維護我們民眾的食安的安全 以上報告恭請指正 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3409.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3420.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
好 謝謝蔡孟瑜署長的報告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答作以下宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3421.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3450.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
以本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面諮詢 請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案 現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言謝謝主席 有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3452.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3474.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
請施部長來 陳委員長部長 今年來有很多新聞媒體他會用這個字眼 醫療崩壞這個字眼去做報導那也有很多新聞媒體他會用這個當專題來探討這個問題在什麼地方部長你醫生院很用心端出了很多的政策那希望能夠改善包括這個UCC事辦計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3476.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3495.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
但是部長我必須老實跟您說因為很多一線的醫護人員他們認為這樣還是治標不是本那因為急診擁塞本來就是因為因為大部分急診在一樓就是樓上的病房開不出來那開不出來最主要的原因就是護理人員沒夠 護理人不夠所以沒有辦法開出病房 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3497.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3516.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我想我从上任以来大概这几个会期我都一直关心三班互并比的这个立法进度为什么因为赖总统也承诺在2023年竣选的时候他就说明白的表示他支持这个三班互并比入法那我想请教部长现在有没有进度那进度到有没有具体的入法的时程 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3517.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3542.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
跟委員說明當然要解決急診擁塞的問題是多方策略從前面的分流到急診的處理的精確化到後面的收治跟病房的運轉所以我們不只是只有UCC還有包含門診的靜脈抗生素的注射駐家住院這些模式我們都在發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3543.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3559.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
至于这个三班互并比那个确实我们需要不断的去改善这个护理的负荷不要让那个负荷太高那才能够留住这个护理人员所以我们在三班互并比上呢也做了很多的奖励的措施那我们等一下我 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3560.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3579.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
看起來好像他那個達標率也在提升當中賴總統他有承諾說兩年內要完成這個入法現在已經到2025年你快年底了所以你要不要有沒有做這個方面的努力修法的努力呢還是你都在旁邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3579.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3593.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們一直在監測這個實施的情形就像我剛剛提到的在113年我們大概以醫學中心來講達標率才36%那到今年就到64%所以如果我們一直往上我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3596.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3621.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
在做這個入法之前的所有的這個輔導措施 衛福部去年他有主動公佈這個三白病比的人力缺口那當時薛部長說按照這個標準護理缺口是7582名那請問部長你現在你認為這個缺口有多少名那有多少醫院沒有達標大概就數字就好了 謝謝跟委員說明我們在這個疫情之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3622.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3641.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
大概我們的每年新增的護理人力大概一年增加5000人左右然後離職率就是那個流動率大概在差不多10到11%之間那我們到了這個今年來看我們已經慢慢回流到4900位的增加量所以跟疫情前慢慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3642.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3662.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
前幾年有時候一年增加不到1000位幾百個而已那現在已經慢慢回來到今年是增加到4900位了到目前為止所以看起來是有慢慢在回流那離職率也從疫情當中最高的時候13%現在降到11.5%部長我手邊的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3663.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3689.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
但是問題出現在醫院的問題跟委員說明確實您的觀察也是對的雖然我們在護理人力在回流的感覺但是過去新增的護理人力大概七八成會留在醫院現在大概差不多一半而已所以如何讓新增的護理人力能夠流向醫院這個是我們要努力的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3690.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3698.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
努力啦 這個方向都是對的但是我還在問你很實務的問題目前到目前為止發了多少三百戶分比的獎勵金你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3700.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3722.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
發了多少錢我們一年是編了40億左右的這個夜班津貼那另外有28億左右是26億左右用在三班戶病比的獎勵那今年到11月的三班戶病比已經發出了10.95億就將近11億了部長我的意思是說因為你們這個發獎金都是根據醫院填報的數字但是重點因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3729.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3753.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
有這個護理師他們都會反應醫院帖報數字怎麼是你確定是正確的嗎會不會造假就是這是第一點就是說理發因為你他說多少你就承認多少那但是基層人還是會跟我們這個民意代表陳情那因為他們還甚至陳情說有些醫院把獎勵金拿去修天花板買便當那部長這樣不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3755.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3782.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
不行 不行你說不行所以這個都是要專款專用改善在護理人員的身上您就是要公開對這個基層護理師有一個回覆嘛那還有因為他為了形式達標形式上達標就是說他們會做很多跨科資源你也知道跨科資源的一些問題他的工作量是大壓力更大病安也會出問題所以那個請問趙護師你有掌握這個狀況嗎護理人員的狀況你應該最清楚啊那怎麼都跑來跟民意代表這個陳情呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3783.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3797.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
跟委員說明我們其實有一個那個平台啦就是那個護理職場正義通報平台是可以直接通報那通報的情形只要我們有收到就會去調查所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3798.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3827.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那這樣就是有幾件事情有幾件事情我希望您參考一下第一個就是說三班護理比百分百用在增加護理人力跟護理的失之失之的薪資您同意嗎就基本上放在這個地方人力跟這個失之對就是用在增加護理人力那就不可以用不相關的部分第二個那為達標的醫院其實很辛苦因為為達標表示那些護理人更辛苦啊那有些醫院他就不領這個獎勵金那表示說他永遠沒有辦法去改善你覺得要罰則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3828.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3842.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
不領獎勵金的表示沒達標那你要不要管他們對我們要看他的這個整個原因所以希望部長你要去了解他們為什麼就根本放棄這個獎勵金那表示他的護理師會更辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3843.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3856.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那這個問題會更大因為他沒有打算要改善像之前這個劉委員一關心說我們的部立醫院那個護病病沒有打票沒有領獎一金那我們就立刻作業那現在通通都已經請你也繼續注意嘛這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3859.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3877.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
第三個就是說有一些地方因為他們反映這個壓力大這風險大喜順市 開刀坊 興導館到目前為止沒有任何標準沒有任何指引 沒有任何公告哦那有沒有打算就說都不知道嘛貨品比要多少不知道那工會 鋼會 他每次詢問就說就問這個有沒有要修這個醫療機構設置辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3879.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3909.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那照護師就說尊重醫事師那醫事師說就在研議啦沒有人負責那請問這個部分有要處理嗎就是醫院的醫療這個機構設置辦法你有想要改變嗎如果是設置標準的部分其實在特殊病房的部分因為樣態很多所以有一些是有設定那個人力標準有一些當然就沒有像新導管室這個沒有設定人力那像ICU這個加護病房的這個特殊病房 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3909.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3922.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
他是有能力標準像RCW這個都有能力標準至於說這個能力標準要不要涉到這個護病比的問題這個我們要再討論一下我今天還有一個問題很重的像您這個反應非常沉重問題非常急迫的個案我們說到因為媽媽的陳情他的孩子只有11個月大 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3929.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3950.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
他罹患了SYNJ1有一種就是異基因相關疾病這是非常罕見在全球的文獻報告在個位數字那在這個叫做神經退化型癲癇腦病變這個孩子就需要要一個叫做RevotrilRevotril你知道嗎他要Drop DG那這個是管制藥 台灣是管制藥那台灣沒有嘛那你又不能叫他拿定劑讓這個嬰兒吞服 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3953.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3977.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以因為是管制藥所以他依法申請了他申請了個人自用藥品進口同意食藥署核准了但是這個藥為什麼進不來嗎到現在還沒有辦法到這個材質手上因為這個藥在其他國家也是管制藥那你不能拿台灣的醫師處方間去買到這個藥即便食藥署已經核准了所以這個而且離這個台灣最近的國家有這個藥品的是紐西蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3978.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3996.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
等於說他希望這個孩子要親自去就醫因為他那個國家也是管制藥所以現在就是說問題說孩子不是沒有藥但是永遠到不了他的手上部長我現在想請教衛福部可不可以主動協調醫事是不是有一個兒童困難取得是臨床必要要免金醫材調度中心嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3997.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4022.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
可不可以協助或是說用其他的專案來進口我一邊說明因為只要官方願意幫忙這個孩子是有機會有機會拿到這個藥的話他們不是要特權他只是希望這個孩子有機會活下去所以我希望今天部長可以給我一個答覆這件事這個病童院務部願不願意主動來幫忙處理呢我們要把所有的孩子都照顧好我們的使命就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4023.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4046.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那因为我们有一个像委员说当时候我们就设立了一个法就是法我知道那法不外乎人情嘛那应该是可以专案进口我听起来好像是已经核准专案进口但是我们去了解一下看那个关卡卡在哪里是那边出不来那边也是管制要嘛所以现在政府要想办法看有没有一个特殊方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4047.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4065.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
他總不能帶著11歲小孩到紐西蘭去了解了解這個我們來了解一下我今天可不可以得到你的一個承諾會你願意幫助這個孩子嗎沒有問題你這是我們的責任他也許也在看你今天我們之間的討論好那就麻煩部長我們最快的速度處理好那謝謝部長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4069.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4095.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
等一下我的助理就跟你聯繫一下讓這個媽媽可以得到幫忙好沒問題沒問題謝謝謝謝委員好政府有責任把每一個孩子都照顧好謝謝趙執委員的發言也謝謝部長的答詢下一位請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席主席請一下食藥署江署長有請江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4101.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4130.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
委員好署長好署長署裡面日前有公布有關化妝品驗出含有蘇丹紅的事情所以我就藉由這個機會有幾個問題想要跟署長做個探討第一個就是說我們這一次含有蘇丹紅的進口化妝品顏料為什麼在輸入的時候沒有進行查驗或者是沒有查驗到 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4131.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4147.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好 就關於化妝品的管理其實管理的架構台灣是跟所謂的世界國際的化妝品組織是一致的叫ICCR是一致的所以是以成品 製劑為最後所以對於原料的部分這次進來我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4149.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4172.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
查起來其實這也故事上面其實是我一個學弟皮膚科的他就覺得怎麼國際有所謂有這樣的訊息所以我們常常叫說他就海巡一樣就巡到就跟我講那我就很警覺的請同仁去查查了之後發現這次進來我們最後查到有蘇安紅的原料是由易紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4173.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4188.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
去進口新加坡的原料這原料進口的時候他報單的分類的號列其實是用所謂的其他植物性的著色料這著色料輸入的時候是用所謂規定的508進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4190.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4217.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那508是進口非供食品或食品添加物用途那進口報關的過程是填列了專用的代碼那後面有DH然後999後面是508這些因為這樣子是疏省在海關面其實會進行的放行進來所以在邊境的部分對這樣子的產品的確它會不屬於在需要食藥署裡面去報關報在食藥署裡面查的範圍內以上的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4219.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4243.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
就是說其實它並不是我們在邊境查驗的時候必須要檢查的項目就在食藥署查驗的項目裡面是不會有這一項的原料那因為化妝品的原料它本身原料的部分其實是多功用圖的不見得是單一設施在化妝品用所以它的影響的層次相對的非常廣舉例說這一次它植物性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4244.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4259.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
裡面也我們沒有想像裡面會有那麼高含量的所謂的蘇丹紅在裡面所以他抱怨的時候也沒有這一項所以在這部分我們還是責成是整體進出口進口商裡面他對於他在國外進口的產品他沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4260.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4289.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
沒有把關 沒有盡到責任所以昨天在部長的指示整體的研討之下它就是在最上游的原料沒有達到這樣子的因此在違反化妝品衛生管理法的向下我們給予最高的罰款500萬的罰款所以這邊也特別提一下剛才提到的所謂的國際化妝品組織所謂ICCR裡面管理不管是歐美 日 加拿大都是以現在以產品為管理的整個核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4290.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4306.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那對於整個禁止使用跟限制使用的產品的部分其實是非常非常清楚的在說明哪些是禁制 哪些是限制的那台灣也針對這個限制的色素裡面也有十幾項也是在限制的蘇丹紅就是很清楚就是禁止使用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4307.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4335.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以添加進去之後很明顯就是一些違法的行為所以不管是在進口商沒辦法確認對於我們國內的廠商我們其實他們的確是有點無辜但是他們在廠裡面對於原料的能夠辨別它是否能夠符合規定的原料也一定要有責任所以我們對這個部分這些廠商雖然說很辛苦我有看到有些落淚的我們也很不捨 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4335.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4358.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
但是違規的行為沒有辦法在這裡我們是層層的把關也賦予這些製造商的責任目前製造商在國內其實有900多家那我們預計其實是能夠整體的規劃在明年7月份能夠全部導入GMP的廠或者是我們的ISO的認證所以這個過程需要明年7月可以完成明年7月我們是積極的請他們能夠達標目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4360.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4383.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
還在很努力的因為每個化妝品廠上面的一個層級 層度上面有些不同 我們積極的輔導最重要是他們要對於他們原料的辨識的部分能夠要更加強他們有沒有這個能力可以辨識我們對於這次的開發這次蘇蘭紅原先是用所謂的色相沉稀的它的敏感度沒有那麼高 到4ppm |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4384.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4413.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
5ppm可是我們這次的開發因為我們檢驗的時候後市場去巡查因為我們得到訊息之後其實架構先看到這個標示上面一樣的產品架構回來去驗驗的時候它的敏感度不夠我們覺得因為原料到稀釋到產品相對低所以我們在非常短時間內開發之後可以測到到0.2ppm所以這次從原料是1000多ppm我們推論不太是應該是污染到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4414.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4433.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
應該是高度可能是添加的所以我們才會這麼重罰對於後市場端的一些產品我們查到最低的是一點多ppm所以我們覺得沒有查到不但要沒有所以積極的趕快開發出來也把這個方法交給國內的5家的現在檢驗的公司那也可以提供一些量能對後市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4434.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4455.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那後市場的部分在部長的提示之下我們也會積極的跟中央跟地方共同對於有些含色素的原料特別是紅色色素的蘇珊紅的標的做更積極的查查跟規劃以上簡單的說明署長大概也把針對我們未來化妝品的風險管理上從原料進口到後市場的稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4457.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4478.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
經濟方案也都已經講了這一次我們看到的就是如何讓廠商 進口商去確認原料的部分我們還是要積極的輔導因為這個影響範圍比我們想像的大這一次在我們有時候開玩笑的時候就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4478.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4498.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
網路上還是要surf一下去滑一滑看到的訊息能夠很警醒的去同仁們算是當責的去把它查出來所以查到部長告訴我們提醒就是我們查到哪裡就應該要公告在哪裡所以這一次的我們公告的範圍是在11月17號的時候我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4499.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4519.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
查到蘇丹4號1.3ppm裡面特別某一家的什麼潔青卸妝膏裡面就立刻停電商平台立即下架也對地方的衛生局的部分進行處理所以目前是進行這樣那進一步去回溯的時候才能夠查到所謂易紅那也再找到新加坡的進口廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4519.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4546.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那這一部分我們其實是也主動跟新加坡的監管單位通報這件事情目前我們還沒有回到回報也跟國際的化妝品組織也回報有這樣子的發明希望把這樣子國內能夠查查到的一個發現能夠跟世界能夠分享能夠保護全體世界有關化妝品的使用的安全大概以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4547.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4570.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
署長是這樣子因為食藥署大概從食品藥品到化妝品都是屬於你們的選擇範圍我剛剛聽了進口的時候的查驗我們也沒有什麼疏失那現在就是日後的精進剛剛署長也做了很詳細的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4571.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4598.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那怎麼去輔導廠商怎麼去輔導廠商辨識這個部分可能要多下一些功夫跟心力謝謝委員指導因為我們看到的確有GMP的輔導的方向還是有一些要在一些特定的重點的部分我們更加強的輔導對 那我最後原本是一個問題那我就直接講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4601.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4629.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我剛剛講的就是食藥署從食品藥品到化妝品那你們從查核到輔導真的需要很多人力假如說人力不足就跟部裡做個溝通因為要你們做這麼多事情然後把關國人的健康沒有人力我覺得很多東西都是空談 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4631.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4657.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝委員 這部分我們去跟部長這邊溝通跟爭取那真的只要求行政單位達成一定的政策目標然後不給不給經費跟不給人力這個是很荒謬的事情好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝請貴接下來請黃毓民委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4665.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4666.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4672.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4696.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
王委員早部長好部長蘇丹紅事件它其實已經延燒兩年了它是一路上從這些食品然後現在連化妝品也都被污染了我們現在看起來只能是都是事後亡羊補牢我們沒有辦法從源頭它一開始的時候就去阻斷它包括這一次的化妝品它從源頭的原料端它就摻了蘇丹紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4701.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4723.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
然後呢你看他下游輻射下去的所衍生的產品從養髮液到噴霧劑到卸妝膏到潤唇膏到口紅到面膜通通都有啊這個真的是涵蓋面也太廣了那這樣一個情況我現在最擔心的是只有只有一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4724.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4744.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
化妝品原料進口商他的原料有問題嗎其他家會不會有問題我現在最擔心的是看起來工業級的蘇丹紅很好用啊無論是食品添加或是化妝品添加因為有專家說因為他便宜鮮豔又穩定所以我現在最擔心的是什麼還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4746.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4771.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
可能知道這樣子使用的可能還有特別是我這次看了覺得很擔心的是女性使用的潤唇膏現在很多男性也使用潤唇膏還使用到蘇丹紅大家本來都在擔心說這些胡椒粉這個咖哩這個少吃一點不會吃到蘇丹紅結果現在女性朋友用的潤唇膏如果以下這些品牌的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4772.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4791.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這個也是直接吃進去而且還插在你的嘴巴上面所以我覺得這一次的事情你們不只是現在你對媒體講的後端市場要查你們邊境的查驗現在也是出現問題因為今天財政部的報告已經講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4792.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4813.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
你們現在對於化妝品產品的一個檢驗你們從113年7月你們化妝品本來是許可制特定用途化妝品許可制把它取消了變成是登錄制所以連海關他都沒有要配合你們協查的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4815.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4844.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那這件事情為什麼會有這樣子制度上的一個轉變呢這樣的轉變會不會變成是另外一個破口特別是化妝品他很多都是使用在我們直接皮膚上面也是吸收啊那你食品你現在都查驗的這麼的嚴謹我現在看到的第一個你們的漏洞是為什麼你們反而是放寬整個化妝品的管理制度把進口的這個許可改成登錄這個要不要解釋一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4846.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4865.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這個是署長你認為開放的嗎跟委員做說明我們針對所謂的化妝品許可跟登錄的部分我們是拉到跟國際目前是ICCR所以國際的化妝品衛生組織裡面共同所以目前是歐美 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4865.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4883.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
日 加拿大等等国是这样的管理那过去我们对于所谓的高风险的部分其实拉出来那在现在呢回归是变成是国际上面的还是以中产品所以委员刚才提到的第一件事情是有些高风险局说我们染法剂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4884.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4907.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
皮膚的一些酸的我覺得這個部分的管理的部分我們要如何去調整我們還是有一些精進跟調整的空間可以去研議因為你們現在只要登錄喔對不用查驗喔所以是中產品的登錄我建議你這個部分既然這次已經看到了蘇丹紅的破口你從這個113.7月你改成登錄制之後你根本就沒有查驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4909.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4931.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
而且也不需要查驗 他就長驅直入就進來了所以你應該至少你針對高風險的用品像這一類的蘇丹紅應用性範圍那麼廣的或者是化妝品的有一些的原料我覺得你應該還是要採取一個比較高強度的一個查驗制度吧要不然你源頭都不管 你拼命去查這個後市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4932.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4956.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個跟我們過去在食安把關或是像你這樣的一個化妝品的衛生安全管理把關這是背道而馳的你的源頭一樣也需要管理啊那這個部分今天發現這個難道你的邊境查驗你不需要重新針對化妝品原料特別是像這種蘇丹紅他說紅色素就是有色素成分的要加強去查驗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4957.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4973.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這邊跟委員做報告因為化妝品的原料進來的時候不會單獨以化妝品原料它其實是非常多用途的所以針對這個非常多用途裡面一項那是你管還是環境部管這一次的這次一紅是誰管 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4973.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4989.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這次的植物裡面它植物的著色劑的這個它進口的原料的編碼是508但是特別是強調它並不是屬在食品添加物裡面所以這部分其實在那它有沒有登錄是化妝品原料508是屬什麼它登錄進來的時候是植物著色劑 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4992.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5010.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以它的用途不見得是只是在化妝品而已它其實非常多元所以我們針對這個館的收集中產品這個全世界管理的趨勢是這樣如果對於非常專屬的部分我們繼續一定要啟動我們可以啟動跟花布會的以及業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5010.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5029.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以影響非常非常大目前我們有9000多家整個進出口跟國內的製造商有900多家他們對於化妝品我們要刻意的是在中產品的的確如您說的這個原料的可是這次的原料根本就不應該進入原料所以如果我們管原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5030.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5050.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我看起來也難以管到這一家因為它其實就是摻為假冒是一個詐欺的行為向下的但是這一家公司它是不是特別都是進口是要提供給下游的化妝品的公司使用的它的營業項目是不是多數是這個我覺得你們還是應該要好好的去查就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5051.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5073.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
如果是屬於這一類的就是說你的進口商你多數有半數以上你的這些營業額你進口的品項都是提供這些原料都是提供給化妝品來生產的這一類我要求你們你們這一陣子已經爆發蘇丹紅我要再次提醒我擔心的是不是只有這一個所以其他同樣有進口的不是新加坡這一家有問題而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5074.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5102.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我擔心的是這是一個他們在業界裡面有人就是在化妝品的原料上游端他就是採取這樣的方式我剛已經講過蘇丹紅的特性便宜鮮豔穩定所以他適合添加在這邊他會緊而走險那再加上現在如果你說的大家都很鬆都不會特別來查這個化妝品上有原料到底有沒有添加那就是一個很大的漏洞啊隨便他加對不對這部長你回應一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5103.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5121.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
報告委員您的擔憂也是我的擔憂其實我們想的是同樣的一個邏輯因為過去化妝品的管理它的來源它的原料就是很多化學品所以它不是像食品這樣專攻食品所以沒有辦法從源頭管理所以都是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5123.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5141.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
製造端 製造端跟後端的後市場管理製造端像我們就在福島要GMP製造所以我們明年7月1號開始全部的化妝品的製造場所希望都符合GMP規範這是從製程去管理那第二個就是後市場的這個檢驗那過去確實沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5144.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5161.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
常規性的把這個蘇丹紅列入這個檢驗項目所以這一次這個食藥署也緊急開發出敏感度更高的可以測到0.2ppm的這種新的檢驗方法所以把這個方法公告之後一方面要求業者要自主管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5162.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5180.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
一方面我们去加强后市场的茶宴所以我们对于这些类似的产品我们后面会去加强抽烟你这都是后市场我在跟你讲的是你的源头管理你这一些进口的原料厂你要怎么去提高你的茶宴的密度 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5180.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5198.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
甚至你要有一些如果他是大量供應給下游的這個化妝品廠商的你還是可以在眾多裡面你去區分嘛你總是要做一些什麼事情啊你現在花那麼大的力氣都是在後市場然後源頭都不管我覺得在這樣在管理上面你是這個事倍功半嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5199.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5226.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
你這個是花了很大的力氣但是你如果從源頭上面你同時你可以有一些的措施你這個才能夠去防止這一些不肖的廠商這些原料廠他鋌而走險去做這些事情因為他做這些錯誤的事情都加重了後端大家的成本不是嗎所以我要你們去研議這個部分怎麼樣在這個前面的進口的這個部分原料的部分就像你們當時在查 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5228.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5252.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
蘇丹紅不准就是禁到食品那他一樣啊他不可以添加在化妝品啊還變成是唇膏塗在嘴巴上面啊好不好這個我希望你們去改變第二個是業者的自主管理你們說要強調業者的自主管理現在的化妝品管理辦法沒有要求業者必須將產品的原料辦成品成品送驗沒有這個規定啊哪一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5254.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5282.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
的确我们是最后的产品的PIF党Product Information File所以刚才委员提到的我们可以加强目前有900多家制造商所以制造商的供应商更上一层的供应商我们可以抓得到可以更集中的去做精准的可以去抽烟我想这个逻辑可以协助我们做更好的在上游的管理非常谢谢委员的指导好那另外一个就是你的这个你说你要提升业者自主管理我现在看到你就是没有法源依据你怎么要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5283.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5307.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
他不做也沒有法則啊這個部分未來要修法嗎要比照食安法嗎就是說因為化妝品它還是跟我們的肌膚跟我們的身體還是有很密切的關係你這樣的一個訴求基本上我是贊成的但是我已經看出來你完全沒有法源依據你也只是一個呼籲而已因為我們的化妝品管理辦法我不知道為什麼就是你們現在好像越管越鬆啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5307.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5324.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
就是從前面的這個進口的許可制也改成登錄制那這一塊你們說呼籲要業者提升自主管理但是你沒有法源要不要修法要不要比照使安法來研議修法給你們法律的我們來研究一下就是一方面我們當然在福島上級MP |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5325.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5347.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
放在GMP裡面的要求也是一則方式那就不用再涉及到去修法如果沒有辦法那需要到修法的時候到時候我們再提到這個立法院來請委員好我希望對於化妝品的管理現在對廣大的女性來講它是每天的必需品所以可能這個食藥署這邊還是要加把勁好不好嚴格把關謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝請陳清輝委員來做懸檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5362.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5364.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
謝謝主席 我想請食藥署署長來 請江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5374.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5394.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
蘇珊好剛剛我看新聞我們本來是有18個化妝品被下架今天早上已經增加到20個了那暫停販賣以外呢其實你們也積極的開始抽菸但是我翻了過去的記錄監察院就曾經點出你們有失邊境把關的責任因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5394.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5411.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
之前這個食品裡面有混入蘇丹紅是因為食品業主在食品追溯系統登載不實的資訊這個你應該知道吧這是去年的事情那從上次的事情我們就來看這個化妝品其實你的化妝品你2024年7月1號也開始推動一個化妝品產品登錄制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5418.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5424.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
好然後你是說這個為了把關他的安全性你要善盡業者應該善盡原料產品的管理責任把關品質然後你們要推動這個心智讓他們從源頭生產製造還有流通 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5433.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5454.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
為國人打造安全的使用化妝品的環境這個也是剛剛王委員一再的強調的那你們會根據一個化妝品安全管理法未來業者必須完成登錄才可以製造販賣還有輸入包括送的那種小贈品都必須要符合如果你要送小贈品也必須要在這個系統上登錄最高可以處以100萬元罰款而且可以連續開罰那我現在就問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5459.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5466.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這一次你現在查到20樣了有蘇丹紅我問你他們有沒有依照你的這個系統如實登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5467.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5496.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
跟委員報告一下我們20樣裡面呢有2樣是沒有登錄了所以現在我們在裁罰已經進行其中4樣是免登錄因為打樣打版本其他剩下的是他的確都有登錄所以對於這一次海災20項本來18變20那也跟委員做說明報告因為我們把相關資訊給各個地方衛生局他們積極的去查查所以他們隨時有回報那部長有指示我們對於所有查到 查到哪裡就公佈到 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5497.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5502.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
讓國文知道哪裡 然後能夠避免接下來的一些暴露的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5503.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5533.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我是希望你既然要做這個系統你就把它做到位否則如果像王委員講的你的後端管理吃力不討好那你這個系統是不是應該要全面的檢討那這個是我昨天自己用自己使用的東西有的良心企業他是查得到那比如說我看了你現在下架的東西我就有三種在上面是查不到的你開了這個7月1號開始這個系統以後你可以明確的告訴全國國人你現在到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5533.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5561.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
查了几件罚了多少钱吗我们现在陆陆续续我们持续的裁罚后市场端我们近年来是做这样子的包含我们联合稽查其实做了6523件其实我们看到品质不合格的有4.8%那我们作为品质的查查的部分是这近几年来是1639件我是在讲你这个系统 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5562.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5577.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
真的有乖乖照做的人有多少你罰了几件因为你一开始7月1号讲得很好听你说为了安全的把关所以一定会积极的落实我是在问你没有好好的做这个系统的人你到底罰了几件查了几件 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5579.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5599.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
目前我們有一些查查的確確實實的數據我會後的時候再補充給那我跟你說我已經所知了你總共只有罰了32家然後最後是49萬這個跟你宣布這個系統的時候落差很大你當時說你一定會重罰最高可以罰到100萬還可以連續罰結果你現在32件然後49萬你覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5604.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5633.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
跟他賺到的不是不成比例嗎所以你做這個系統到底是為了什麼這邊跟委員補充一下這個部分32件是我們從111年7月1號就是7月1號你開始宣布的啊是92000塊錢的茶茶那因為持續對於還沒有的部分我們在後市場端可以請各個衛生局持續加強的這個茶茶沒有登錄的我們一律 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5634.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5663.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
你那個裁罰的金額實在是太低了所以我覺得不會有效也不會有人照做第二既然你真的想做那你現在要不要訂一個時程比如說從現在開始多久一週一個月如實登錄你就不溯及既往你覺得這樣子如何還是你乾脆就承認說王委員認為的你覺得後市場的管理沒有效那你這個系統是不是就改善還是不要用或是什麼方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5664.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5675.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這邊跟委員報告我們用最短的時間我們希望能夠兩週內能夠請所有的有在市面上的所有產品都應該登錄沒有的話我們叉叉就是採訪兩週我們把它記錄起來兩週謝謝署長署長您請回部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5683.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5710.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
部長我們前一陣子有去參加衛福部舉辦的子師代頒獎我覺得辦得非常的感人那其中是以射陣家暴然後防治等等這些就一些性侵害家暴等等的防治這個是做得很好有表揚但是每一個受獎人他們都有講到共同的一句話我覺得聽起來是很心酸他們就提到說他們感謝家人如果沒有家人他們已經撐不下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5711.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5736.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
中間好多人都要離職但是不可能我們不可能永遠靠這一批還有熱情的人去撐這個是數據你應該也看了很多次了近四年家暴我們從2021到2024成長兩萬多保護性案件再衝爆率好像也沒有辦法再下降了你認為問題在哪裡就這些一犯再犯的人就在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5738.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5763.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
当然这个通报量的增加一方面也是我们去宣导让他认知到说这个是可以通报那可以寻求协助所以这个通报量的上升我们倒是觉得应该继续鼓励积极的通报但是那个保护性社工确实像您提到的他们很辛苦所以对面对这样的案件的增加人力上应该也要增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5764.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5785.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那我给你看一下人力刚刚已经讲了通报量是两万人力实际增长数大概是六百所以我们跟其他国家比是其他国家的三到四倍我们每一个人平均案量是四十到六十案那一天也听到非常的多人说他如果偏乡他一天只能访查一到两个就算是有补助 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5787.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5808.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這個交通費他根本就訪查不完他一定得加班那這一點我覺得你講得很好你講到保護性社工保護性社工你們之前有調薪到4.6萬你有沒有還有更好的做法因為我幫你圈起來了我們有1985位保護性社工的缺口現在還有610位逮捕你覺得怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5809.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5837.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好 当然我们目前我们的数字是这样大概全国的保护性社工总数大概差不多3000位那现在我们的补助大概是目前已经是占大概一半1400多位那我们实际上编的预算是可以到1700多位所以还有一些缺口还可以再补你会再扩大编制对 那未来我们会明年会再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5837.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5844.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個人力上我們確實社工的壓力很大那它的危險性加急你有考慮再增加嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5845.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5869.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
因為我們現在已經是有啦那我們來研究看要不要有沒有這個要橫頻去討論看看目前是大概是有3000元的那我剛講的是社安網第二期的保護性加急是最近一兩年才加上去的接下來的社安網第三期你有沒有機會直接就納入保護性加急或者是再往上調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5871.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5879.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們本來就有納入這個計畫就持續擴大編制這個是有的但是保護性加擠可不可以再往上 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5881.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5904.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
加急我們要評估一下因為我們現在先把人力增加我們第一步是把那個編制擴大所以明年的那個社交網2.0的人力會再增加那這邊是那天很多社工上台領獎的時候說的他們說他們的情緒勞動也很多因為他們必須一直陪伴這些家暴或是性侵害的受害人然後接到很多的負面情緒 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5905.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5926.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
可是你這邊整合給社工的心理諮商只有三到四次三到四次如果從專業面來看大概就是建立呼吸這樣子而已他們覺得他們需要更多這一點你們有沒有考慮可以再把它往上調我們來研究一下有哪些方式可以一起來支持這個我們來研究大概多久可以給我們回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5927.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5955.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
一个月内嘛因为我们也要了解他们的需求好那下一个也是很多社工关心的因为明年开始你也知道这个是从任性计划出来的1月1号开始要推动独居老人的盘查那主计处现在估计是70万名独居长者但地方政府这样算一算可能会上看120万名那这边我们想知道卫福部的这个责任是在哪里因为卫福部提供给我们的是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5956.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5971.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
有擴大獨居老人的服務還有加發生活補助等等可是社工當然就會蠻擔心的有這麼多人要去盤查第一衛福部希望誰去做這件事情第二你的盤查內容有哪些你可以快速的稍微講一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5972.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5999.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
大概是跟委員說明這個是屬於特別預算特別預算裡面的62億是專門用在獨居老人的服務所以他可能有四大塊第一個就是訪視我們過去並沒有全部都完成訪視所以這一次我們希望在兩年內能夠把這70萬名至少都評估過一次訪視同時做需求的評估你的訪視是誰去訪視 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6001.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6014.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
就是社工背景的人員不是全部社工師社工師大概不太可能那我們會透過跟民間團體的合作一起去去加速完成1月1號就要開始了現在已經11月 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6015.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6041.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們社交組有在規劃那你可以給我們內容你是要派誰去訪視另外訪視完之後回來之後再去連結其他的資源就會風險分級的概念那有些他可能需要的是這個定期還要繼續關懷有的OK的那就OK那有些還要在定期的才再交付案子去後續的追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6041.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6069.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那有些他可能更差的他可能需要這個緊急救援裝置再去導入緊急救援裝置那這個會由這個各地方這個社政單位去提出他們的計畫最近我們這個村里長他們去負責發放全民國防手冊就遇到一個很大的問題如果他的幅員很大他其實一本是2.1元所以大家是叫苦連天那現在社工是很擔心你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6069.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6090.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以你也是一個月可以給我資料嗎我們把那個整個做的那個規劃的計劃給委員參考我們想看一下你實際是派誰去訪視然後你訪視的內容有沒有結合他的健康狀況等等的因為假使他有失智的話你怎麼知道去的這個社工背景的人他到底會不會評估是對好謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員的提醒謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6096.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6110.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
報告 在黎月晴委員選討結束之後 我們休息十分鐘接下來請黃修煌委員來做選討謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6116.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6144.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好 委員長部長好 部長我今天想要跟部長再討論一下有關我們醫療人力的問題我記得在前陣子也在這個質詢台上面也有詢問過部長那我想請教就是說其實我們看到這個兩個禮拜前部長跟總統都有去參加第78屆的醫師節的慶祝大會那當天總統也有特別提到就是說允諾跟醫界要一起合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6145.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6167.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
提升我們的醫療服務品質解決改善醫療人力的問題還有醫療人力跟工作環境都要改善我想請教部長因為我們看到台大醫院在之前就是說他們在招聘住院醫師的時候要招11個人然後只有來7個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6169.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6191.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那北榮的四位兒科住院醫師也全數離開離職然後去開業所以我不知道就是說這個醫療人力當然就是說衛福部這邊一直有提出一些政策希望能夠將這些醫療人力能夠留在醫院可是我們看到就是說這些醫療人力就一直出去然後自己開業嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6193.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6220.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們看到就是說你們之前也有特別提到就是說健保的支付的標準有提高還有發放住院的醫師的津貼還有增加輔助人力推動醫療糾紛的相關的一些法案我想請教部長我們提高了我們增加了這些政策有減少就是說讓這些醫師願意留在醫院嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6221.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6245.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
跟委員說明就是說我們今年的健保的總額是叫去年提升增加了531億然後再加上政府的公務預算一住180億是增加到732億有這麼多那明年我們的成長那麼還會再加比今年的這個總額要再成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6246.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6270.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
到597億將近600億的規模所以今年是531億明年會到597億再增加同時又有公務預算199億進來所以明年整個的健保總額會破兆大概是這個概念所以增加了這麼多預算那麼其實總統的指示方向很清楚就是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6270.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6294.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
改善醫療品質那麼留住急重症的人力所以整個健保也在搭配調整這個支付標準所以一開始就是先從急重症先調所以我們今年就先調了這個急性一般病床的護理費把它調升急診的觀察床的費用這個護理費都把它調了所以先調了這個那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6295.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6316.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
醫師的人力我們看起來的人力是穩定留在醫院的還算穩定但是有一些科別之間確實出現這個住院醫師招收的下降像外科像今年來講招收的就還不錯那但是在這個內科也還可以但是這個兒科的部分就是明顯是比較困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6317.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6340.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那当然这个儿科的背景是因为我们的少子女化的关系所以整个小孩子的数量下降所以那个儿科医师他的服务对象就下降了所以如果按照过去用这个论量记酬Fee for service的方式来支付就会让他们的收入就会下降所以对于这个未来的前景啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6340.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6355.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
年轻的医师可能就会却步所以我们才会在明年的总额用一个特殊的方式就是先框住了一定的预算就是保障这个孩子照顾得好医师收入不会减少 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6355.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6384.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那用这个方式来设计新的支付的模式不再是论量计筹反而是把孩子的预防保健这些健康检查早期疗愈这些事情早点发现然后导入把孩子照顾健康但是医师收入不减少那朝这个方向来调整那我是不是可以请部长就是说我们推了这么多的一个政策或者是说健保的这个有增加那你们应该也要再去做一个统计那 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6385.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6404.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
既然這樣子不是像以前的這個論量計酬那就是提高我們的這個醫療兒科的這個醫療品質那如果是這樣的話應該也要再去統計一下那這樣子這個兒科醫師願意留在這個職場裡面的到底他的成效到底好不好我覺得應該也要再去做一個統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6406.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6421.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
對 跟委員報告我們也有這個方面的數字當然就是現在的流向就是開業比較多所以我們現在的目標就像委員關心的要留在這個醫院的急重症因為醫院的兒科醫師要值班要照顧比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6422.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6445.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
早產的這些困難的科或者是男症 寒病的小孩所以我們也會去搭配的調整這個支付標準讓這個兒科醫師願意留在醫院那當然就是說總統也有提到一個就是說改善醫療人力的問題所以你們現在正在試辦就是假日輕急症中心那這個從試辦到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6449.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6471.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
四周的时间那你们觉得成效好吗因为我们一共有13个点在示范那么在六都来在示范那现在看起来成效最好的大概是在台南台南的UCC就是假日的清急症中心他的人数上都是破百的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6473.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6501.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
一天的量两个班就差不多都是破百以上对于那个陈大医院的急诊的舒缓看到数字的下降所以他还是会如果能够宣导的好做的成功的话可以降低这个急诊的负荷让大医院的急诊去处理那些重症的病人那其他的区域的话那个量还在还没有完全上来我们会再努力去做调整 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6501.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6519.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
部長我想請教就是說這個假日輕急症中心他這些醫師是原本就是開業醫然後進來支援的嘛是不是對 為主就是那個開業醫然後進來支援基層的醫師有時候是地區醫院的或者是那個開診所的醫師就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6520.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6537.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
就是基層的醫師來支援那部長會不會未來會有一個狀況就是說這個原本我們在大醫院的這些醫師他還是希望就是說到外面去開業然後你反而就是說假日的時候來支援賺的更多會不會有這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6538.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6553.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
不会啦因为他我们要求的是要内科儿科跟这个骨外科啦那这些其实儿科医师刚刚就提到说很多就是目前在基层在职业的可以来帮忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6554.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6569.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那内科医师其实已经够多了所以不会因为这几个班因为这个班不多一个月才四天而已部长我是不是也可以请就是说我们这些大医院的医疗人力的福利这些医师福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6571.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6589.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
有一些譬如說我們中央衛福部這邊補助的應該可以直接進到我們所有的護理人員或者是醫師的這個口袋裡面而不是又透過醫師這個大醫院再重新去分配不知道可不可以做到這樣子的一個我們現在慢慢的有一些調整支付標準都會要求一定比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6590.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6609.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
要到這個人員的身上 像比如說我們再來明年打算在過年長假期間去增加給付增加給付我們就會要求這個八成增加的部分都要跟人員給人的就是出來上班的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6610.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6636.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那你们有去集合吗就是有请医院这边你们钱下去了之后然后你们有去集合到底他是不是真的把这个你们补助给医院的这些钱是直接进到医师或者是进到护理人员的这个口袋里面当然我们有一个那个申诉平台但就是如果没有拿到的我们尽量把我们这些做法让大家知道大家如果觉得说我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6636.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6658.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
部裡面已經有這樣的措施可是他們都沒有拿到就可以來申訴我們就會去查其實有時候申訴這個基層的員工或者是護理人員或者是醫師其實有的人你要叫他去申訴我覺得他也會有一些壓力我覺得應該你們要更主動一點去稽查到底有沒有把你們補助的這些經費是進到這些醫療人員的薪資裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6663.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6690.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好 我再请健保也研究一下因为都是健保的费用所以这个应该要有建立一下好 那另外部长因为我这两天接到很多就是已经在从事医美的这个医师的一个呈请就是说你们这个特管办法下来之后他还要去做PGY的一个训练那我想请教就是说有的从事医美的开医美诊所已经开了十几年 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6692.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6713.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
像這樣子他已經在基層從事醫美的工作這麼久了還需要再進到學校或者是再進到大醫院裡面去做PGY的訓練嗎我希望就是說因為也引起很多目前已經自己開業醫的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6715.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6732.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
医美的这个医师的一些呈请所以我希望就是说针对这部分你们应该要再去好好的去沟通跟委员说明今天下午就医事室就有召开一个会议有大概40个团体代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6732.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6761.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
都会来参与那在会上大家再好好的说明把这个执行的细节讲清楚了让大家清楚那看还有什么意见那再来做整合因为其中有一部分你们是要溯及既往是不是应该是这样我们溯及的部分是最主要是针对因为我们学制改变过去呢是医学系毕业要七年最后一年都是完整一整年的实习甚至有的是两年的实习 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6762.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6785.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那後來把這個學制縮短了然後把它放在這個畢業後訓練所以才有所謂的畢業後一般醫學訓練這6加2才是一個完整的醫師的基本訓練才有辦法去獨立執行業務所以當時候的概念就是這樣那他已經在外面已經職業這麼久了沒有想到有這個狀況這個PGY的訓練不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6788.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6806.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
现在你做的可能只是专门做同一件事情当然你做得很好但是医疗可能碰到任何不预期的状况所以这些基础的训练是让你在面对一些不预期意外状况的时候你如何处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6806.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6823.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我们过去看到的几个案件经常是在发生意外或者医疗不良事件的时候他没有办法紧急的处置而造成遗憾所以我们必须去强化这一块那我是不是可以请就是说卫福部这边还是要加强沟通 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6824.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6836.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
要不然其實會讓這些人也是你們這個特管辦法出來之後就有很多陳情所以我們希望就是說確實要好好的溝通那溝通完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6838.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6860.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
这个我觉得一方面就是确保这个患者或者是想要去做医美的这个安全我觉得是安全也是很重要安全是最重要对 安全是最重要所以我觉得说这个沟通你们应该要好好去沟通避免下一次又大家就是大量的陈情或者是怎样我觉得这样也不好会 好不好好 我们来强化沟通好 谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6863.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6887.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好 謝謝黃昭偉部長你剛剛講的那幾話很危險你當過醫事社市長你本身也是醫事背景的你說台灣的醫師已經在他自己的診所職業十多年了他可能沒有什麼樣的什麼緊急應變的機組的課程都必須要再回來再PGI兩年這句話不出口 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6890.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6893.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好主席麻煩我們的衛福部部長來請部長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6914.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6938.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
林委員好 今天我們又見到蘇丹紅可是這次她出現在化妝品裡面這本來應該有衛福部積極把關而非消極等待通報我知道這幾天衛福部都很努力的在處理可是這件事情也讓我很擔心 為什麼呢因為兒少化妝品的使用安全就會是一個很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6939.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6961.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
因為我長期關注兒少我也明白這個世代對於容貌的焦慮逐漸成長所以媒體也報導說那兒少化妝的風氣越來越盛行那連帶著自主選購的化妝品也變得事實上非常的頻繁所以我認為這是成長過程當中很重要的一環我們不可能去阻止這件事情因為為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6962.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6978.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
每一个人要去展现自己的更美的容貌可是我觉得很重要的是我们是否有足够的完备的制度跟环境让儿少在自我形象形塑的过程当中能够安全健康的不过这 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6979.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7003.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
兒少通常消費能力是比成人還要低即便市面上流通的有關兒童無毒的彩妝可能也不是兒少有能力去消費的所以部長在兒少族群裡面容易購買的化妝品像開架式的化妝品或者夜市地攤貨或菜市場的衛福部是不是有任何具體的管理措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7005.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7021.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
確實像委員所說愛美是人的天性但是我們必須去保障他的安全所以我們食藥署也定有這個叫做那個供兒童使用之化妝品的安全指引裡面就會有如列哪一些的這個要求規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7022.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7045.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那同時呢在今年也有在做啦就是後市場的茶宴也會去針對這些兒童用的可能會是用在這個兒童會用到的進行這個應該是母嬰對於那個重金屬啦防腐劑啦跟這個微生物 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7045.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7073.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
主要是过去都是查这一些部长这份指引的内容你是不是有看过对儿少族群能够理解吗还是请我们的署长这一份指引我看起来主要是对业者是对业者他在制造的过程可是看皮肤专科医师讲说儿童的皮肤本来就容易吸收有毒质所以我说常常很多东西成人可以的搞不好是儿少可能要更 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7073.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7093.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
沒辦法去使用在他的身上所以謝謝委員 委員這邊提到我待會給委員補充一下其實我們針對已經在一定是在產品出去要告訴兒童不能用就是不能用舉個例子三歲以下的我們就有些什麼水楊酸類的啊那我們一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7096.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7123.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
水楊酸為主的那還有一些是過氧化物的12歲以下其實這個都要那到底誰知道因為我覺得現在你的適時的風險那個資訊揭露跟後續的衛教作業真的事實上是反而更重要那廣大家長對這些成分有沒有掌握先講家長他可能才買到像萬聖節可能還有一個事實上是緊接著如何傳遞足夠的訊息有的事實上是青少年他自己就要變成是他自己可能就不是在家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7123.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7147.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個範圍然後他到底知不知道有害的化妝品跟他對他的影響是什麼就我我認為啊除了現在有的那個所謂兒童無毒的彩妝標示外更重要的要做的是這樣針對有疑慮的成分跟使用的建議應該有相對應的教育跟宣導否則你這指引的話可能如果剛剛講說是對業者的話那更 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7148.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7169.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
何況事實上是對一般的消費者跟兒少還要用兒少能夠理解的語言來讓他們去了解否則他任由他們買了回去然後產生身體上的傷害我相信兩位一定不熱見再來醫療暴力也是我想部長應該也非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7170.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7187.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
上一次的醫療法修正事實上是106年可是我現在去看那個數據卻發現醫療暴力仍然節節攀升這代表既有的制度還是無法保護我們的醫事人員安全減少醫療糾紛的一個紛爭部長你認為這其中的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7189.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7214.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
为什么一直在节节攀升当然这边的因素也很多当然一个是医病之间我们把它分成几个样态有些是本身是病人的精神的问题或者是酗酒有一些个人的行为所造成有一些是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7217.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7241.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
醫療照護的過程當中那麼有一些爭議而採取的暴力的方式但是不管原因是什麼採取暴力都是不被允許的你剛剛提的都是問題點可是我覺得針對醫療現場的問題應該要更具體的解方醫療暴力發生的場所為例的話目前各醫院急診室住緊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7242.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7264.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
其實主要是保全在單崗那除了不具有逮捕現行犯的一個強制力本身的裝備跟專業都沒有辦法抵禦蓄意的攻擊行為所以我覺得這是修法我提的版本當中我將警察角色明定在我們的法條當中我也知道目前要建立醫療暴力的通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7265.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7294.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
連繫防治平台先要來做用來協調我們的醫療機構司法機構跟其他相關單位但我認為入法的話可以更具體立即的因應危機來提升嚇阻作用那所以甚至在現行的刑法有兩個問題下限太低完全沒有嚇阻作用所以我們針對刑法這部分我們也認為要提高刑度所以我不知道部長支持我這樣的一個修法方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7296.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7318.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
當然我們對於強化賀祖主要這些刑度主要是要達到賀祖的效果我們過去在103年修法的時候主要是參考了在刑法裡面另外也參考了妨礙公務執行相對應的法則去設計出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7323.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7337.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那如果這個當然這個刑度去給他加強能不能夠達到這個效果我們當然不敢講但是需要去強化這個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7339.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7363.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
就是醫院本身也要去強化剛剛提到的這個平常的訓練還有這個因應的措施場所的這個設計那麼來保護到我們醫護人員的職業安全發生狀況的時候如何尋求到警察的及時協助我講這很重要因為醫護人員也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7364.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7391.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
对我们国家医疗贡献那么高可是我们要保护他安全最后医疗暴力当然也包含性跟性别暴力今年3月我和我们台北市医师职业工会跟台大的教授王韵如医师针对我国医界的性别友善现况召开了记者会根据去年医师工会的调查呢遭受全市性骚的异性恋的女性多达半数以上可是申诉率却只有5.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7392.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7413.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
部長有掌握到為什麼申訴率這麼低迷的原因嗎申訴率低啊是 因為他們調查跟你們的最後你們的申訴率事實上他們說有半數以上可是你們申訴率只有5.7%而且半數以上受害者覺得申訴也無濟於事才不得已做隱忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7414.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7432.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那零申訴不等於零事件這是長期的系統失靈醫療團體向我反映就算反性騷擾的海報宣導很多真正缺的事實上是實務處理程序除了沒有讓性別平等的專家進場調查委員也沒有外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7432.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7453.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
名單不公開更嚴重的是加害者根本沒有調離崗位所以以這樣的狀況他看別人這樣他怎麼敢申訴呢所以請問部長面對他們的困境只能放任這些助人者孤立無援嗎所以請部長回答我為什麼醫院內部的違法刑事眾多調查機制失靈且為不 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7455.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7475.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
承諾要做兩件事這去年就是全市性騷了指引原本去年113年8月應該完成第二件事你要建置性平教育的資資資的人才庫很多醫院的同仁都在等可是兩年後的現在始終沒有外部的透明的監督機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7476.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7499.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
董事長可不可以回答我這兩個這是去年我們在執行的時候就有提到的謝謝委員的提醒因為從這個不申訴的理由的分析看起來就是內部醫院的作為讓這個被騷擾者有沒有心力去我看有的是說沒有這個心力或者是申訴了也沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7500.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7515.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以内部的机制一定要建立起来不然就会让被骚扰者心灰意冷他也不会想要去申诉部长我刚刚讲你们承诺两件事情这个程序上是这样 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7516.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7530.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
这个要加强这个医院的辅导让他们知道怎么做怎么做所以这个指引的建立我们来研究看看应该去年八月就要完成了还有一个性平教育师之 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7530.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7545.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
人才庫好像是說已經有建立了我們再確認提供給因為我認為性平事件的調查委員會必須公開名單三分之以上的外部委員性平專業資格指標化而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7546.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7563.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
處理跟後續追蹤都應該納入你獨立評鑑項目違反者應該扣分降等同時加害者的評鑑跟住院醫師的訓練資格者都應該要考慮應有的相關的影響跟懲處所以部長能做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7564.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7591.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那個目前如果有發生過被申訴是有性騷擾的他基本上就不適合做這個PGY的訓練的教室這個我們已經有宣布這件事情了已經納入了那剛剛提到這個機制啦內部的處理機制的建立那納入到這個評鑑或什麼我想這個是法律上的規定本來就應該要做的再麻煩 謝謝部長我們來這個進一步的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7594.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7597.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
積極的來推動好 謝謝部長好 謝謝那我們現在休息十分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7642.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7645.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
要來這裡去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8262.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8265.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好 我們繼續開會接下來請邱政軍委員來做選擇來 各位請回座好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8291.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8300.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那是哪一個單位的主席好我們請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8306.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8324.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
就很早部長好這次化妝品驗出蘇丹紅事件我看到你們發的三文三篇新聞稿就是避重就輕你們第一篇說你們持續監控國際風險訊息發現的問題有媒體把影片剪出來的我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8327.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8328.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
你們是看抖音還是看小紅書發現的 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8348.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8375.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
報告委員 是我學弟一個皮膚科的學弟就傳了一個LINE說學長學長我們有看到相關國際上面的一些訊息所以不是看小紅書也不是看抖音都不是那就是也不是業者通報也不是就是你的同學所以說天線有打開來有很多很多訊息來我們就還是請同仁們要積極去釐清這樣子所以但我們平常我們都沒有掌握這些訊息嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8378.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8403.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們對於國際相關的媒體其實我們在網路我們有一個人工智慧的爬蟲系統其實對於各國的通訊的系統跟通報系統我們都積極掌握可是對於網紅這個部分所以你那個朋友是古堡武漢子說的嗎不是不是他我看到他說他說他們在10月份看到一支中國影片影片裡爆料有化學品化妝品可能被掺進蘇丹紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8404.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8430.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那他一看到就不對就立刻找代工廠確認結果代工廠也說了有注意到這件事情也在查所以代工廠馬上去問代理台灣代理商原料的狀況同時也聯絡第三方檢驗單位看看能不能做蘇丹紅的檢驗那接著這個古堡接到代工廠正式通知說原料可能有問題雖然還沒確定但資訊也不完整但古堡覺得不能冒險他是10月25號 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8431.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8459.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
就把這個產品預防性下架同一天他們也把產品送去第三方檢驗到了11月4號代工廠主動聯繫主管機關通報整個事情我們主管機關卻說食品的檢驗方法不能採用因為必須用化妝品的檢驗方法但當時我們主管機關尚未提供化妝品的檢驗方法所以自主檢查結果也沒用所以他們還不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8460.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8465.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
就變成說他們也不知道有沒有問題所以他們通報的主管機關是你們嗎跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8466.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8490.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
委員這邊做簡單說明因為我們原來是對於蘇丹4號的檢驗方法是用所謂的HPLC它的靈敏度不夠是5ppm那我們針對化妝品 因為化妝品原料稀釋下來會少你們11月24你才公佈檢驗方法所以中間持續的我們要非常精準的能夠到因為到化妝品的中產品的時候濃度 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8490.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8515.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
不會太高所以也就是說你們一直以來都沒有把蘇丹紅列為化妝品的這個檢驗風險的項目嘛對不對我們在100有驗過我們的棕榆油裡面的化妝品含棕榆油化妝品的蘇丹測數之前有驗過什麼什麼驗過10項裡面其實都是陰性的可是我想說相對它的靈敏度不是那麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8515.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8533.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以我現在問的就是說我們當時有沒有把這個化妝品列入這個風險管控的項目它有列入風險管控那為什麼沒有檢驗方法檢驗的方法也有只是它的靈敏度上面是不一樣的所以我們針對這一次的檢驗過程中我們發現我們擔心靈敏度不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8534.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8552.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以積極的重新去做修正所以也是在這次事件裡面有精進的地方委員剛才提到的也是很精確就是說有沒有 有但是不夠精確的方法我們所以可以跟廠商講說我們趕快從對 你這樣子因為我們上次蘇丹紅的辣椒事件已經弄到你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8553.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8567.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
也是忙得一團亂所以你現在這個化妝品我認為當時你們就其實應該這樣講你沒有把這件事情你們沒有把這件事情歸類要去注意的部分所以這個檢驗的條件才會到24號才出來 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8572.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8594.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
跟委員做進一步說明最終能夠精準檢驗的是在11月24號那篩檢的部分我再問你11月4號同一天你們發文給國內化妝品製造及輸入業者要求全面檢視供應鏈原料的材料這個來源並加強自主管理你們發出去的文有要求業者要回覆你們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8596.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8613.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這部分我們的文裡面所以你們只是提醒他嘛 對不對對 在前面那一段的時候是在提醒因為還沒有完全確定所以綠藤生機才會去送檢嘛那也就是說我們沒有要求這個業主自主檢查之後要回覆那現在已經有十幾家都有使用到 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8614.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8626.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
只有一家是主動送驗通報你的提醒大部分業者來說是一張紙而已我就說你們既然已經通知他了是不是應該做得更完善一點不要做半套嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8628.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8653.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
謝謝委員這邊特別提醒中間有一家有提到的是叫綠藤的這家其實是主動負責的他也是受害者之一我知道我跟你講因為這個中間就差了14天你從4號到18號大概15天那關務署18號才收到這個公文那到昨天為止8天影子都沒有看到這個效率是要查什麼呢到現在有查到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8655.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8673.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
委員這邊提的是關務署這邊沒有過來跟委員報告關務府的回覆我們這邊是只有一家新加坡的廠商是進口這個的是有特別所以目前就只有一個對 是的會不會再後來又再爆發出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8674.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8693.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
跟委員部長在先前有特別提示我們針對色素的部分我們會加強的一些擦擦因為目前的所謂製造廠有900多家只有用的原料端我們有機會可以去溯源的部分我們今年大概驗到3批了大概3批那你對這個我之前對義宏企業開發了500萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8695.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8708.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那移送的檢調這本來就應該做的但這只是一間公司的犯罪行為但你們現在講被驗出來有3批這今年有3批那外界比較擔心的是沒驗到的還在市面上的怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8709.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8729.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
報告委員我們的邏輯跟委員是一致的所以我們針對這部分也是如部長提示我們查到哪我們就公報到哪你們供應鏈會全部清查嗎持續都還在查當中所以跟委員這邊做進入的報告我們還都沒有停下來我們的策略是什麼就是一定要查清楚對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8730.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8758.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對的 沒錯我希望說這個事情不要就只做一半 好不好盡快給我們國人一個交代那第二個就是醫療暴力的問題我們今天提了修這個醫療法主要是因為醫療暴力層出不窮你們認為現有的法律已經夠了但是你們自己的數據拉出來也知道醫護人員被打 被恐嚇 被污辱甚至在急診 在病房 在救護現場遭到攻擊一年比一年還高 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8759.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8774.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那前線人員當然希望加強保護提高刑責讓警察有義務到現場但我從你們的報告裡面說看不到任何一個積極保護醫護的一個態度甚至可以說你們的態度就是不支持這個醫護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8775.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8794.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
不會不支持啦 不是不支持就是說我們以按照我們現在要再進行的當然還是有包含醫院要去強化這整個SOP有這個防患的措施跟發現事情的時候的緊急應變程序包含跟警察單位的聯繫等等這個還是要持續的做 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8794.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8817.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那你24條的這個就醫安全本來就是包含醫事人員醫療機構工作人員就醫者不要把不需要把醫護寫清楚那我想請問就是說誰看到就醫安全會認為說這個醫事人員醫療機構都是涵蓋在裡面呢對不對 你這個文章這個24條的就醫安全這一條我覺得蠻奇怪的啊對不對 本來就包含啊那為什麼不寫寫清楚很困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8820.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8846.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
不要有模糊空間嘛好不好還有這個我們也希望說這個警察你們報告裡面寫說警察本來實務上就會處理那我們也是希望把這個東西把它明文化把它寫上來就碰到問題不要說到時候警察那邊又推不要說我們本來警察就應該要去結果沒去對不對我希望這邊再多一些規範好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8851.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8867.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長接下來請廖偉祥召委來做選擇感謝劉建國召委 有請衛福部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8872.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8884.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
賴委員早部長早部長衛福部為了強化這個護理人力的留任你們在2024年投入了多少錢40億去年去年的話是42億對那202568億嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8888.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8908.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那要希望可以辦理這個護理人員的留任再來就是希望落實三班互併比的政策希望可以透過改善工作環境來這個截止這個護理師的離職潮但是根據立法院的調查報告顯示啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8908.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8936.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
扣除了65歲以上年齡層護理人員職業率2024年的2月在錯失三班護病比錯失前是62.72%但是到了2025年的5月反而掉了掉到62.36%是創下2020年來的最低所以我想請問這個是這個數據是對的嗎這個立法院的調查報告為什麼你說落實提出這個三班護病比之後這個數據反而掉了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8938.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8943.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個好像是立法院的調查報告我們現在的數字好像到2024年12月對因為看起來是掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8950.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8967.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
現在沒有有更好嗎有大概是63所以你認為這個執行之後的數據是有好的所以這個立法院調查報告的數據是舊的如果我們用今年的這個但是你要想我這是有扣除65歲以上的我剛講的數據是扣除65歲以上有有有 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8968.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8990.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
如果以今年10月跟去年這個同期的這個那個護理人力來講我們是增加大概4900位啦那跟疫情前相比的話大概也差不多是在5000位左右所以慢慢再回來疫情當中就你但是這樣的這樣的成績你滿意嗎還不滿意還不滿意嘛對不對對還不滿意所以其實我想要問說 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8992.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9016.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
其实当时这个离职率的部分我也有问过我们的邱前部长那那个时候我们认为说这个数据看起来也是没有提升的也很好而且甚至并没有改善太多所以就想说是不是应该要有所谓的九任奖金那当时的邱前部长说要再研议那另外我想要请教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9018.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9034.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
針對這個提升整體醫事人員的待遇這個護理師全聯會他也有幾項訴求那以下我是挑出這四樣包含著第一個就是這個合理的薪資希望說這個有關於合理薪資標準是不是應該要設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9035.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9056.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那譬如說其全民健保的這個投保的金額醫院應該是基本工資的可能2.5倍診所是1.5倍那希望改善這個醫事人員的薪資反映他專業跟勞動價值這第一點他們的訴求那第二點是提高臨床醫事人員培訓計畫的補助款那點值的計算方式要透明化 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9057.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9082.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
保障可能1.1元並調升醫事職業補助款的點數至25000點或以上確保護理人才可以得到適當的培訓支持這是他們的第二點第三點是推動臨床護理專家制度設置有臨床護理專家職位並提升相應的津貼在醫院納入醫院的評鑑加分 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9082.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9106.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那第四點是9任獎金所以我拉出這四個他們的訴求想要請部長回應一下當然這個我們非常認同這個委員這邊關心到的護理人員的9任但是我們現在以結果來看我們現在的這個獎勵金分兩個一個是夜班津貼一個就是護病筆但是護病筆過去只看護病筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9107.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9125.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們現在未來的比重是要以人力的增加為主要的指標所以這個獎勵就是會讓他去運用如何讓人力增加所以留任久任也是一個人力增加你一直有心境可是舊的一直走掉就不會增加所以他用這一筆錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9126.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9145.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
當然就留任的是好嘛對 轉成他們留任獎金那也是符合符合我們的使用用途啊所以9任獎金你們是認同的嗎9任獎金可以我們現在有的那個三班互併比的獎勵他可以拿來做9任獎金用那所以第4點沒什麼問題那123呢那另外呢我們現在也有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9148.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9168.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
5年的489億的深耕計劃深耕計劃裡面也有用到一部分是在人員的培訓跟這個職場環境的改善那你把他拿來做為久任留任的獎金也是OK這些措施呢他是可以搭配在裡面做那一二三點呢那至於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9169.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9184.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
这个合理薪资的标准这个我们在讨论中你们在讨论中对对在讨论中那大概什么时候会有结果呢那个coach就是那个导师制度在我们的护理12项的那个 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9185.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9214.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那个策略里头已经包含在里头已经有这个coach就是这个导师制也就是所谓的专家地位这个我们现在已经有纳入在计划里面让这个心境人员不会马上就要面临各种的临床上的挑战所以有一个导师护理我们过去都是医师有导师现在是让这个护理也有这个心境人员有一个导师的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9215.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9240.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好 所以針對這四項需求你們四項的訴求你們都是認同的至於說這個培訓計畫提升這個因為還有各職類的人員所以可能我們要一起討論這部分要演繹所以第二個是要演繹的第一個也在討論中然後第三和四是沒有問題四也支持有相關計畫可以去轉去使用對 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9242.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9255.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
再來第二題就是說部長根據這個台灣醫策會的報告也指出新進護理師首年的離職率高達30到35%那近5年的護理師平均職業年齡已經從2019年36.33歲突破到2025年的6月的39歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9262.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9283.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那40歲以下護理人力的占比更是連連下降所以這個部分行政院在這個2023年通過護理人力的政策整備計畫以這個護理心血培育以免護理心血培育的出現斷層這件事情那本席認為這個部分現在要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9285.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9302.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
你們未來要怎麼樣改善然後你們有沒有針對他到底是因為目前為止他的障礙是前警察薪資低工作惡劣環境這樣子的因素所以導致他們離職率很高嗎就是你們有沒有去做過深度的調查和去了解第一線的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9303.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9327.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
跟委員說明當然薪資是一個很重要的因素所以我們在一方面提高這個健保的給付強化那個護理費的部分但是希望這些增加的護理費要回饋到這個護理人員的薪資的調升這個我們在監測中那看起來也是有在增加所以護理人員的薪資的調升是一定要做那第二個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9329.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9349.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這前幾年因為遇到這個COVID疫情的關係所以在護理的培訓過程當中少了那一些好 部長我想請問一下就是說你們有沒有也跟這個教育部啦或是各科系之間去進行這個統計調查然後還有去了解說為什麼他們的這個首年的離職率這麼高那有沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9350.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9378.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好好的去研究說他需要什麼然後你們去怎麼調整那個系統性的調查當然沒有我會請照護師做一個系統性的調查讓各醫院去反映或者是這個護理團體來反映你們應該要去做系統性的調查系統性的調查我們來做對啊你才知道說要怎麼樣對症下藥嘛是是是好因為時間有限了我盡速再來就是要問說醫療這個暴力的部分啦好那我要請那個司法院的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9381.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9397.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
基本上每一年累積5年有1500多件的防礙醫療業務執行在平均每一年是309件儘管立法院其實在2014年和2017年其實有兩度修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9398.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9422.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
有兩度修正逐次加重涉醫療暴力的刑度但修法時效有限那過去的10年間每一年的案件還是介於200到400件之間那去年可能更高達443件是11年來新高所以顯然沒有因為刑責加重產生嚇阻作用那我去看了一下其中關鍵是不是在於司法判決跟法律規定的嚴重脫節 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9423.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9446.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
包含台北市醫師職業工會的會員代表統計司法院判決的發現2016到2020之間的醫療暴力判決刑期中位數大概是兩個月平均判刑是兩個月多那遠低於法律所定的最高刑期而且他其中的罰還也只有3到5萬那五大醫療團體也在今年的6月有聯合聲明 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9446.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9465.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
呼籲立法院應該加重刑責民定警政機關介入的義務那首先要問一下司法的代表當然個案都可能有所不同但是從這個統計數字來看呈現這個刑期很低的狀況是不是司法院是會不會認為這樣判決的情況會導致嚇阻力不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9467.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9486.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
謝謝委員關心這個關於這個量刑的部分是法官依據這個個案調查證據的結果所謂的判斷那這個司法院都向來都是予以尊重那至於說這個判決的結果本身能不能夠嚇阻那我必須要強調就是說判決本身是藉由這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9487.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9511.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這個法官是參考說所謂的一般預防特別預防還有一些嚇阻的作用綜合的一個判斷的一個結果那至於說能不能嚇阻的話這個部分可能就要看這個刑期本身立法對啊 所以目前看起來是沒有這個嚇阻力嘛好 那我現在要請問一下部長 衛福部長所以本席也提案希望修法應該刑期至少六個月以上那 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9512.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9530.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
在嚇阻力不足的前提之下其實實際上依這個勞暴力這個防治制度也是不太足所以依改會也指出衛福部現行規定是這個要求僅要求百床以上的醫院必須設置24小時的保全但99床以下的醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9531.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9557.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
包含許多有開放急診的中小型醫院卻不在此規定之內所以若暴力案發生要等到啟動警民聯繫然後院外的警察趕到才能夠制止其實也會增加額外增加這個醫院內員工受害的風險所以想要請教一下部長是不是可以參考國外早已經有的防暴政策如美國的這個護理學會在2002年有訂定所謂醫院防暴檢核表 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9558.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9578.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那日本的2006年有規劃醫院安全管理體制要點跟加拿大醫院頒布及時應變的防範與通報的相關的機制來修正我們的醫療機構設置標準明定有關開放的急診醫院不管是什麼規模是不是應該要設置24小時的保全或駐衛警 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9580.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9604.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
跟委員說明我們現在其實有訂了相關的指引我們再請這個醫事師去了解一下其他國家的做法有沒有還可以參考之處我們把這個指引再做一些修正那至於說是不是要列在這個醫院的設置標準裡面那是強制性規定那因為目前99傳以下的醫院是不需要設急診的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9605.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9626.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以這個如果又加了很多的要求之後反而讓他把急診關起來乾脆不做那這樣會不會反而影響到民眾的權益多數民眾的權益我們會來權衡對你們要權衡一下並且去了解一下因為這個你說要等到警察介入的時間到底夠不夠這你們應該也要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9626.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9643.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
另外根據這個台大公衛急診室暴力研究一致指出其實這個施暴者處於酒醉或藥物影響下的比例是極高的那一項針對台灣急診暴力的分析顯示高達43%的暴力事件跟這個施暴者酒後失控或酒飲有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9644.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9663.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那往往醫療的暴力犯罪者其實也都有一般的暴力的先例那部長有沒有發現這些特質就好像是在家庭暴力的事件中施暴者的特質其實也高度重合所以因此本席也在認為我們是不是應該積極的討論提高家暴中刑這個刑罰跟加嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9664.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9689.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
因為我們現在同時在討論這個事嘛 家暴的部分嘛可是我們面對人力流失的醫療環境我們是不是應該要更有積極的作為來保護醫師人員比如說這個如同在健保卡會註記藥物過敏啊或者是以保護病人的安全那對於有暴力前科或是醫療暴力記錄者是不是也應該要註記來保護一下醫療人員的生命安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9690.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9708.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那可不可以也參考比較英國澳洲或者是美國的制度先例也納入我們的制度去評估部長你認為呢當然我們在這個防範暴力的這個環節裡面有一個關鍵是辨識這個高風險者哪些是高風險者所以要備註是不是要備註 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9710.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9722.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
辨識這個高風險者但是這個辨識是不是要用健保卡加注的方式來行使這個我想我們要再討論一下那你現在怎麼辨識就是教育訓練的方式譬如說剛剛提到我們多數就是這個酒飲者啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9725.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9740.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
然後他都會有一些跡象所以我們去強化這個教育訓練讓這個第一線人員可以及時察覺然後做好適當的這個這個防範措施這個是有他的必要性但是用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9741.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9757.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
直接加注在健保卡裡面這個可能我們還要再研究一下你們可以去參考一下國際上面有沒有相關的部分因為本期這裡也整理出一些列表來給你所以請你們去研究一下因為我認為這樣子其實才可以更快的辨識出來好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9777.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9780.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
謝謝主席有請維護部司部長王委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9786.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9811.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
部長早今天我們主席排了多元的主題不過我想我們還是從兩個部分來跟部長討論第一個就是研擬提升醫事人員留任醫院的具體策略另外就是有關於形式醫事鑑定的困境這兩個大的主題醫事人力的部分我們都很清楚大家都很擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9812.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9836.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
部長也多次在公開的場合告訴大家這是全球的趨勢不是台灣唯一獨有的現象可是我們還是希望多了解一下有關於在護理人力的部分其實如果每萬人根據WHO的2023年的資料來看最好最好的像摩洛哥 瑞士他們平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9837.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9853.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
每萬人有到208位、187位、165位不等的包括我們護理師跟助產人員比較指標性的國家有包括澳洲、美國還有日本、德國等等也有120到134位不等韓國是90位 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9858.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9877.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
台灣是85位當然各國的醫療政府制度不同結構因素不同這個多寡當然也會不太一樣那如果依照85這樣的人數來看的話跟第31名卡達是4.9所以我們這裡第30名補充有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9881.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9904.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
應該這麼說就是說跟委員報告這不只是只有護理人力醫師人力跟各類人力我們都是在後段班我們都是在以每萬人口醫師也是我們醫師也是倒數第二護理我們護病之間是有一個比例關係我們現在的問題是在於當然這個數字要多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9905.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9926.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
沒有一個全世界的標準因為它會跟這個地理環境跟人口密度有關係以城市型的來講他的醫師所需要的人數就比較低那麼越是這個人口密度低的他需要的醫師人力就要比較高這個都可以理解那護理跟醫師有一個相對的比例關係存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9927.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9949.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
但是我們的問題是我們現在供應的床數太多因為有另外一個數字我們的床數是在前段班但是我們的護理人員數是在後段班產生了偏離的現象所以我們才在積極的在努力如何去縮短住院天數我們的平均住院天數是9天 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9949.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9968.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
了解 別人是比較低這個數據只是讓大家參考部長說明了大家都會了解我們比較擔心說護理人力如果持續流失這些數據將來會不會更不好被閱讀被看到那根據114年10月份的護理人數總認證人數是30億萬職業人數是19萬所以目前的職業率是62.73% |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9976.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9985.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
比較擔心的這個數據之一就是平均人齡是39歲在2021年的時候是36.95歲就是說四年來差兩歲多這個才是我們會很擔心這個護理師這樣在年齡上的這些開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9997.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10013.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
慢慢的升高這個到底是少子化因素以外還有沒有其他因素因為目前每一年護理系畢業生的人數稍微下降三年來這裡每一年都減一成左右那還有另外一個可能性是留不住年輕的護理同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10014.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10034.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
有可能避不了他反正就不進入到這個職場這個是我們所擔心的部分那目前除了部長所提供的這些很多的講義措施以外那預計到2030年要增加5點到7萬左右的這個護理人力我們有沒有實際的目標跟好的途徑來達到這樣的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10036.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10047.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們是根據WHO的建議根據這個年齡的老化去推估未來護理能力的需求不過那個都是以現況去推估 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10048.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10075.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那麼沒有考量到我們整個照顧環境的改變所以那個數字之前就是純粹的數學數學算式那要去增加那麼以這個每年我們現在增加大概是5000位那剛剛委員提醒的很好如何去讓這個年輕的護理人進來我們雖然有增加有兩種一種是新進一種是回任它有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10076.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10102.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那麼新增的部分我們可以看到在疫情當中的新增明顯的下降再加上後來又有流失所以在疫情那三年是最嚴峻的時候有時候整年增加的人數不到1000人很低那我們去 今年到去年來講已經增加的人數大概快要回到疫情前的水準但是醫院的比例下降了 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10103.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10130.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
都到醫院外面以前是大概七成都在醫院裡面七八成都在醫院裡面現在只有一半在醫院裡面新生的部分他到醫院外面那當然這裡面有幾個因素的影響就是多元的職場的發展包含我們近期在積極推動的長照啊還有其他的這個診所現在也在增聘人力的情形之下那麼這造成這個人員之間的流動 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10131.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10151.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那我们所以我们的策略上会先去积极去增加在医院的护理能力我们来想办法所以我们现在的一些支付标准的调整也好或者是挹注那多数是放在医院目标也是这样好至少可以让我们护理同仁很安心的在这个市场上能够愿意进来做服务 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10152.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10181.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那有關於醫師人力的部分在2019年有一份國會院的一個研究報告告訴我們說其實現在的到2030年的醫師人力不逾匱乏主要是因為分布不平均的問題那這個其實大家都了解尤其時事的推移雖然過去才5年不過包括醫美市場的興起對於整個醫療的這些人力的分布可能會更遭受到很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10183.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10201.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
偏鄉人力的確這幾年來人數是有增加可是整體的占比還是相對不足為了要因應偏鄉的需求其實我們也看到健保署很努力去做了全國偏鄉醫事人力的需求平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10202.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10222.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個平台我們最近去看了發現說它的確有提到過去在成功媒合的數百位的這些醫師們到或者是團隊去偏鄉服務我們這兩天去看現在只有一件上面有這個需求這個到底是真的滿足了嗎還是有什麼因素讓這個平台沒有發揮作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10224.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10245.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
當然這個平台有多少效果我們可以再檢討啦也可以再多宣傳那不過這個如同這個委員所提到的我們的醫師的人力有兩個狀況一個是這個地理分佈的不均就是偏鄉的地方還有另外一個是科別間 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10246.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10262.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
還有科別間像有些科啊像我們這個這個兒科的人力就是在在下降還有科別間的問題那過去前幾年也有婦產科缺的問題但是我們做了一些努力現在婦產科算是穩定了所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10264.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10282.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
偏鄉如何去強化讓他這個醫師能夠到偏鄉甚至留任我們有很多措施包含健保裡面的燈塔型醫院保障那麼包含這個開業的這個保障心這個還有這個透過這個公費醫師的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10282.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10310.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那另外也有這個IDS的巡迴計畫去充實這個偏鄉的醫療服務再加上科技的協助等等我們都有多元的這個謝謝部長這邊的說明我沒有注意到一則消息就是事實上賴總統也有特別針對論人記者確認整合照護執行方案在健康台灣的一個研討會的時候也有提到這個部分好像執行了非常不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10311.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10331.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我們也知道執行方案的政策目標有三大一個落實守護民眾健康以健康促進及預防還有保健取代疾病治療看起來是有很好的政策作為那有很好的鼓勵獎勵的誘因實施的成果目前也都看到它實際上要發揮的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10332.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10351.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
另外好像也要開始擴大這個部分施行方案那能不能夠把它變成是一個提升醫事人力留言的一個附加價值就是透過這個方案讓在偏鄉的這個附加價值就是讓這些所有的團隊願意留在這個地方服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10352.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10368.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
有謝謝委員確實這個一開始是在花蓮縣的秀林鄉執行那也蠻成功的那現在已經過到全國其他的各區也都責定六個區都有責定那個一個地點要再試辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10369.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10398.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那花蓮的部分我們是希望花東來做全面性的推動所以剛剛委員所提到的那它變成是一個誘因因為它不是這個free for service它不是論量計酬那麼它是有框定的一定的費用那這個沒有用掉的部分反而會變成回饋有些也有保障點子的等等做法那我們來先從這個花東來先做 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10399.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10423.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
全面性的事辦的目標來推動很期待如果成效良好未來有沒有機會甚至一個縣來做一個處理另外我們也了解即使鼓勵偏鄉人士留任是需要跨部會政策合作所以陳彥委員 莊瑞雄委員還有我們提示在醫療法第十八條提出一些修正的草案不過那個不是今天要去處理的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10423.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10449.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
不過這個草案最重要的精神就是希望針對離老偏鄉的各級服務跟所有醫事人員他的收入可以免計入這個因課稅的所得課稅裡面的那個範圍這部分不知道部長是不是支持這樣修法的精神這個就牽扯到跨部會這個部分就可能要麻煩部長也都能夠跟跨部會有一些更多的合作好那最後就是有關的這個刑事 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10451.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10464.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這個意思鑑定的部分 麻煩請一下法務部的汪參士還有這個司法院的顧副廳長 抱歉很快很快 來很快來一百三十年 這個刑事訴訟法就開始施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10465.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10484.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那結果我們也看到了一些困境今天早上林書分委員也做了非常詳細的說明那想要請教這個王三世的就是虛下刑事鑑定的案件裡面依舊是很重要的一個部分那有沒有其他像性暴力傷害精神鑑定這個也都受到影響了解我的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10485.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10506.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
性暴力鑑定跟精神鑑定對因為如果說真的都需要透過這個部分來請相關的醫事人員醫師來做提供鑑定的話那當初是以依究為主的這些現象那如果是其他不是直接牽涉到依究而是性暴力傷害或精神鑑定因為這個法案的修正而受影響的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10507.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10525.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
如果性暴力鑑定跟精神鑑定也是要送醫師鑑定審議委員會處理的話如果我們過去是這樣的話那這樣都一定是會有影響的因為我們看到我們但是如果沒有再送進去的話那是另外的的話那就那就不是在我們這影響的案件裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10525.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10541.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
好 那我們到時候會再多了解到底這個影響的程度是如何還是真的沒有受到影響那司法院法官或者是顧副長長這邊我們也了解如果這個案件進入到法院審理的階段的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10542.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10557.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
法官仍然需要有具備法律證據能力的正式鑑定報告那請問一下目前在這個審判階段可能發生這個鑑定卡冠的問題嗎因為今天早上這個林委員林書文委員非常非常的關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10558.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10581.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
跟委員報告 目前如果是醫省會的醫糾案件目前我們了解是目前有10件醫省會他們有拒絕鑑定目前是卡在法院這一端 就是沒辦法鑑定至於說其他的醫療糾紛的案件法院是轉給其他的單位來做鑑定這個部分是沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10582.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10596.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
至於說如果說像精神的鑑定或者是量型鑑定的話醫療單位這部分鑑定到目前為止我們都沒有聽到任何問題所以碰到的問題不大目前就是醫審會的部分有卡關 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10597.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10618.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
Ok可是好像跟林委員的理解有所落差這部分我們會持續的來了解那其實衛護部跟法務部的合作在今年施行新制以後解決這個困境的有提供所謂醫療專業意見的示範計畫那這部分的示範計畫成果不知道可不可以也讓民眾或者是大家多了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10619.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10632.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
大概我們目前已經啟動這個機制從今年5月開始那也陸續在進行不過還是要跟委員報告這個醫療專業意見並沒有辦法取代進入到刑事訴訟過程當中的鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10634.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10652.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
他還是後端變得還要再正式要送一次鑑定的時候還是會出現同樣的問題卡關這個是可以協助這個檢察官要不要起訴或者是在調查階段上的輔助這個醫療專業意見書的概念是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10655.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10668.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
是 因為這個醫療專業意見是用衛福部的名義出具是用醫審會的 對而不是由個人 不是個人或者是具名的方式因為我們一直以來的醫審會對於這個醫療糾紛的鑑定都是用共識覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10673.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10696.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
就是會有這個初見醫師但是是經過委員大家討論之後可能也會有修訂的意見最後才做成共同的決定所以它是一個委員會的共識決並不是個別的單一醫師的意見而已了解 所以還是有一些困境需要大家共同來努力來解決好 那就謝謝謝謝主席好 請回 好 謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10702.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10731.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
接下來請盧縣醫委員來做詢答主席有請部長來請時部長盧委員好部長好那你我都是醫護人員那我覺得我們常常面對那個醫療的暴力那我想請問一下你認為大概有多少%的醫生曾經受過各種形式的暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10732.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10757.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這個我沒有資料 沒有概念我們國內有資料嗎沒有 我看到韓國的資料在2016年的資料是很可怕 是96.5 96.5的醫生致訴有受到各種形式的暴力這麼高 對其實部長大概知道說這些暴力的最主要的來源大概會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10758.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10769.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他有好幾個樣態啦那最長的當然是來自於這個病人或家屬啦他的那個個人的我的意思是說他的源頭是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10771.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10792.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
大概就是所谓的不满意治疗的结果或者是他本身有一些精神状态或者是酒饮 酒药饮的也有根据刚刚那篇报道也就是说大概86.4%是源自于医疗的过程他不满意或者是他的一些比如说等候或这些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10793.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10815.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那其實我們今天要講的就是因為面對這些事情的時候你這些接觸的人的層面是到底是有多少那我後來查了資料日本沒有專法 韓國也沒有專法 台灣當然也沒有所以我們才會針對這個醫療法第24跟106條做修正那我剛看了就是英國的大概2018年他有出了所謂的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10816.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10831.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那就是說對Emergency Worker Assault的一個專法在2018年的時候結果它這個Emergency Worker的那個定義就有十種人你剛剛看一下醫療人員只不過是在第十種而已前面九種都是關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10832.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10850.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
比如说警官或者是警组一些会约束他的人或者是监狱检索管理这些只要面对紧急状况会去处理这些面对面的这些事情的人都应该列入医疗暴力的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10851.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10869.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
範圍裡面這是我們台灣目前沒有去考慮的這個層面所以希望以後我們在立法例的時候可能這些部分還是要不僅是加驗或者是說它的罰金這些我是覺得它都是其次可是你要保護的是哪些人我覺得還是要匡列起來然後還有我們就是通報跟處理機制的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10870.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10888.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因為我覺得我們是不是有一個管道可以很迅速的來處理這件事情我們的地檢這邊有相當配合的人力嗎那我們2025年4月9號看到日本的明星他攻擊了護理人員他的下場是什麼呢就是直接羈押那我們台灣有沒有可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10889.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10904.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
走这个方向因为你只有这样你可以嚇阻病人也可以保护我们的医护人员我就直接加了一个他的一个诉求我觉得这个部分应该也可以考虑进去讲到这个那我想说 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10905.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10921.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我们就讲到我们现在偏向好了因为这个大家都有讲过了那我一直在讲IDS的一个支付机制还有我们的医护人员当然在偏向很难去做增加或者是去马上去把它培养出来这些人力所以我们常常是要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10922.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10944.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
替我们偏乡的人力说那IDS已经那么多年我91年到春日卫生所你看我从进去到离开的时候IDS的费用其实完全没有调整过那我们看到一些大饼比如说二期偏乡计划几十亿七十亿进去你说真正有对我们的我们这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10944.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10965.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
是實際在工作的人有幫忙嗎然後我們先看到醫療偏鄉的需求我們看到補助延遲這個補助延遲這個我覺得我們在護理人員它有一個專門在做我們車馬費補助的這個其實這個我覺得對護理人員造成很大的一個loading因為它要收集所有各部落的單據 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10966.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10995.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
比如说他到平基看他就要去算他到几公里他要当一个算法然后呢他一个一户一户去收收集了以后一张一张凭证那结果几十万的凭证这么厚然后我们主任要给一个盖你不觉得这个是旷日废死的事情已经是现在是AI的时代了我觉得这种补助的东西我觉得应该是可以找一个窗口做我们智慧型的改变而不是一而再再而三做重复的事情然后当期补卷还要叫家属再去医院拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10996.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11018.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我觉得这个部分是最让人诟病的那下一个我们看一下我们的那个护理人员就是我们常常在讲说能不能帮他们提供一些比如说他们想要留任的一个想法因为护理人员他要做什么呢他比如说他要做行政还要做防疫还要做防癌还要做医疗 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11019.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11040.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那這些人其實都是重複的這些人可是我們的衛生所其實是從日據時代一直沿用到現在然後我們那時候可能剛光復的時候是用村裡別來就是聘用我們的護理人員結果會造成比如說林洛鄉 返山鄉只有三個村的時候整個衛生所的人力正式編制只有五個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11041.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11055.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那你他的人口明明就非常多可能超過幾萬可是林靜香可能只有幾千人可是他的村莊比較多結果他的邊子就有20人那你說20人跟5個人做的工作是一樣甚至是5個人做的工作是非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11056.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11081.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以我在想說衛生所的編制它為什麼沒有辦法因為人口或者是說用零理我們用零來去做而不是實際以村莊來弄甚至在偏鄉你可以用公里數比如說這個衛生所是距離衛生所最遠的這樣合理可以有兩個護士來照顧這個村莊所以我一直在想說你要怎麼把我們偏鄉的這些醫療的 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11083.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11109.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
人力補足或者是我是覺得這個從那個制度上面我覺得部長應該要去體會或者是去考量這件事情好謝謝委員關心到這個偏鄉的人力黨我先簡單的回應第一個就是說IDS的部分確實那個行政程序上怎麼去簡化我們把它我們最近也都在推一化智慧化我們會把它納入在這個下一下一波的這個簡化來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11113.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11140.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
讓這行政量可以下降那第二個這個給付的部分是這樣雖然說我們在IDS的給付是有加成也有保障點值的做法但是確實是應該還是要再調整所以我們現在也把那個預算這個健保裡面的那個偏鄉的預算從過去一年的9億明年會增加到14億那一方面IDS然後再導入這個遠距醫療來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11142.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11167.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
至於說這個我們增加之後的預算有沒有到這個人員的口袋裡面那才是重點所以退休的醫師如果要投入偏鄉的話你的那個鼓勵的一個作為我們也是沒有看到你有這樣的想法可是還沒有一個應該實際的他們應該可以獲得的一些待遇我們沒有看到那最後一個就是我們看到醫療的那個就是像看到急診室說很像每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11168.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11188.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
每個案件可以多少%可是你說真正會到醫師跟護理人員的那個比例我們就沒有看到 對不對我們會來著重說我們調高幾戶之後那多少比例要到這個人員的然後最後一個問題就是護理人員他說那個跨科資源這個問題這個問題有在解決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11191.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11216.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
跨科資源 因為護理界有不同的聲音有些是希望不要定這個跨科資源的這些原則但是有些又希望定所以這個護理界的這個聲音有不同那當然通常都是從一個想法就是希望不要再增加他們的loading謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝部長接下來請蘇清泉委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11224.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11241.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
謝謝主席那我們讓部長休息我請食藥署署長江署長還有我們請健保署署長來 陳署長署長 江署長這個蘇丹紅今天我們我們劉昭偉 劉縣長他特別提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11253.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11257.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這個蘇丹紅怎麼也可以吃也可以磨 也可以擦哇 這東西到底是擦什麼東西多少衍生物 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11263.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11287.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
插裡面是絕對禁止在化妝品裡它是名列是不能使用的所以在這個原料商新加坡原料商 台灣進口商對於這一塊裡面沒有把它的檢驗的報告如實的去呈現而是有一些參為假冒沒有把它揭露出來所以我們昨天其實以最高的裁罰金額就500萬給它罰下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11289.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11316.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以這一些什麼利能生技什麼的 巴拉巴拉這裡的人他們是都不知道 不知情這個蘇丹農到底是 它是很穩定的很穩定或是說它好保存 或是它很鮮豔或是說它可以防腐什麼瓦克它到底是什麼好態 大家都要用炒 用磨 用泥石 用跟委員報告其實只有一個只有一個就是便宜者的貨然後色彩鮮豔 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11318.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11343.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那對於不能用的就是確定是不能用那對於用了之後呢而且我們看到的品項裡面這十幾家 十二家廠商他們的產品目前是20項我們對於這個其中有一家其實是主動去驗然後確定下來他提到說他主動的去揭露然後去講我覺得是鼓勵他們的業者的自主的 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11344.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11370.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那對於這些明年度7月1號預計走GMP的廠的全面GMP廠或者ISO認證這個過程我們中間呢遇到了一些阻力我們希望這一次呢持續能夠來做這是要檢舉的還是你們邊境查驗出來的這個是我一個學弟他應該是網路這個滑滑滑他就跟我講說學長這個你查看看這個看起來好像有 你看你這個查案是靠馬路透明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11372.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11393.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
其實我們在這個部分跟委員報告所以我們針對原料的部分剛才有很多的討論我們覺得原來是屬於所謂的原料對於所謂的核可製到登錄製這個過程中如何在上階層裡面對於原料的我們也積極的在做後續的研議因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11395.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11411.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
這些原料不見得這些化妝品的什麼現在都封存嘛我看是封存下架沒有銷毀嘛接下來就是要銷毀了這怎麼辦那這些廠商如果是不知情就說進來染劑就把它淹下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11414.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11438.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
口紅這樣用所以我看這個東西可以吃就對了啦不能吃啦不能吃因為這個GMP廠的廠商對於他自己的原料也要有能夠去負責任的態度你現在原料廠商進口竟然你跟最上有買的完全都沒有這個能力所以一關一關都要建置他們的能力跟辨識能力也是我們下一階段GMP廠裡面輔導廠商的做法所以我學的食藥署但是事情有很多啦一罐就一罐沒了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11443.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11471.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那邊境茶園或茶廠或是在做稽查員的待遇這麼多 經常找不到人你是要怎麼解決 你要怎麼解決我們在稽查的部分人力我們其實感謝人事總署紀念部都有給我們增加的人力總共33 內部裡面調整的實際增加24個人力裡面也在區管裡面能夠在第一線可以有更多的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11472.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11500.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那這一次的原料進口的部分其實它的進口報單的號列是DH9999後面是508那這508裡面特別是所謂植物的其他色素這植物的其他色素在輸入許可證號碼上面其實填寫是書審在海關實際進行就予以放行所以我們對於這一塊對於未來化妝品的原料的部分是否有進一步的我們其實會跨部會裡面剛才有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11501.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11519.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
這個蘇丹虹它有好幾種樣一型 二型 幾型 七型 這麼多主要到密道道之後它會代謝成AlininAlinin就是第三級的致癌物第二級 第三級致癌物所以這個是很嚴重的問題是很嚴肅所以這是西洋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11523.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11546.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以食藥署就要比較謹慎的啦我看你常常在出事情我很替你歡樂而已我看你這樣鬆鬆鬆的 覺得不夠我們力振一定是想辦法把這事情申諾關得更好時間有限了 來 陳署長來 你就要休息了張署長就要休息了我那個就留給他平起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11553.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11562.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
剛才在說這個IDS我要跟兩位說你們現在做差不多20年了高長一年高進對 所以現在有的地方要檢討剛才我們盧憲宜在說的一些原住民那裡說來說去就是經費不夠嘛或是幫補助的這個是不行啦教委員報告 我們部長有說到14億每年我們會來檢討那個行政流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11582.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11599.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
像前幾天我們另外的委員有提恆春的小琉球的用小琉球我講得很抱歉但是那個市場遊客這麼多禮拜六 禮拜天去看醫生大家都愛的叫不然我們要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11600.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11606.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
現在年輕的醫生不是像你說的那種道德欠收像石部長這樣做醫生我這樣做醫生的時候 大家幫你額露一下就去啦沒有啦 時代不一樣啦現在年輕人要嘛就是要代育狗 一個臂嘛你現在要說要用UCC 市長你是要用UCC的方式去報效 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11622.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11630.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
看了半天看了一個禮拜六看了一百多個病人沒有藥師醫生看法還要去保養啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11631.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11648.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
喔 這真的我全台灣都看到了我問一件事上次你有關心琉球這邊的遊客多有醫療需求所以我們健保署立刻有去媒合了所以關於你提到的藥師 醫師 護理師這部分我們都已經在盤點應該會儘速補足這個醫師人我問藥界藥師他說每一個節的待遇有到 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11656.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11661.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
像樣啦 他們就預管你現在UCC這個我看介紹比較高你去IDS的那幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11665.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11689.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
像假的也不一樣所以要考慮一下但是報告也要保重點對不對這就要不處理不可以反正遊客也是不滿意啊看個病還要去包藥同一個人要講過要人紅要人洗頭要笑的對不對所以這個很重要是 謝謝委員指導1445有什麼意見嗎 拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11694.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11712.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
沒有 所以我們才那時候是比較過就是相對現在給付的一些政策所以就是部裡面整體的討論就是對於假日遊客多的小琉球應該會想辦法來協助 以上好 謝謝 好 你們兩個都請回那請環境部 有來喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11721.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11746.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
委員好 這個很嚴重 上個禮拜五 禮拜六台南後壁 垃圾山 廢修嘛 對不對這台地就是丹納斯 颱風 一些廢墟都拼在那裡 也有石棉瓦那修了 纖維是會裂開的要裂到冰凍 裂到更暗 再蓋在裂膠上蓋起來我們劉縣長 你要注意 你們也對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11753.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11777.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那要怎麼做 跟委員報告我們了解的情形 台南那邊有在說就是說他這裡這堆是籌啊單是他在倒的籌啊 台內並沒有實棉啦這是今天的那個圖 今天的對 那個優關就是說北溪北部或是北溪南部 要看風向 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11779.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11796.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
要看風向 東北季風啊一定要往下吹啊如果吹東北季風就往南邊往南邊對高雄這個如果又有石棉瓦有纖維什麼東東的要怎麼防範不然的話我們健保署又忙了這部分是這樣 我們都有感情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11797.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11801.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這部份我都有感情 我們這裡在高雄 在台南 屏東 這裡都有監測站有發現到說 這裡的鹽濃度 有偏高的這個情形每一個人換一個防毒面具 這樣 誰要怎麼辦不會啦還是躲在家裡 棉窗緊閉 就好像打仗一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11818.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11835.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
他就做附近的民眾的預警這要看監測的濃度的情形你們那個石棉瓦是後來怎麼處理因為連部長講都跟真的一樣我都打問號什麼都拿到工廠去密閉一頓要花多少錢 想要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11837.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11852.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
有的啦 這部分是這樣啦 就是說市面上它回收回去一般是用固化的方式啦固化固化的方式 就是說它那個已經放在那裡密閉密閉之後用固化整個用安眠套 像我們用安眠套這樣啦把它封起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11854.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11881.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
就好像那個河山 河山廠還是河塘電廠的那個二級 二級萬物 也許用固化劑 再加一些水泥這部分 灑灰給它封起來封起來之後 讓它不會溢散這天就去做過後 接下來就掩埋掩埋 OK他待會兒熬手是這樣這個要加強監控啦不要人家在檢舉裡面都還沒有動作啦好這百姓的安全是最重要啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11882.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11887.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
好 謝謝主席 請我們時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11910.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11912.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那請部長看一下我們衛福部統計的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11923.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11943.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那這個是我們今年9月三班互併比它未達標率那醫學中心有39%區醫院有31%地區醫院有19%三班互併比的政策我們從2024年開始開辦到今年11月那算起來也有17個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11944.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11961.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那在推動三班互變筆的獎勵的部分我們看執行到現在那為什麼還有那麼高的未達標率當然這個目標還可以再努力啦不過以今年跟去年相比去年的達標率大概只有在30%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11962.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11982.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
但今年已經到60幾%所以還是有成效當然這個特別是醫學中心他的護病比要求的比較高他的那個要求護理能力更高所以我們會繼續來努力那針對這部分據我們了解他本身有達標獎勵金嘛那達標獎勵金 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11986.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11998.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
16億我們現在發了5.9多億也快6億那看起來也有很多人反應那為什麼不向夜班獎勵金就直接回饋給這些護理人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12001.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12020.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
因為我們夜班獎勵那個填班表很清楚啦那這個三班護病比的是由醫院去看看去提升有的是放在白班啊有些是去整個那個護理的福利的把它提升起來所以它的用途讓它比較多元化一點讓醫院去依據它的需要去處理這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12022.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12049.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
對 但是我們了解當然衛福部針對這一部分是希望說專款專用對 專款專用然後所以沒有用專款的獎勵那可是據我們了解好像其實在醫院很多的用途好像很多用途都很奇怪像當然他說有時候在什麼護理師的空間去買一些小點心然後據說好像也有拿去做修繕也有去買制服的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12050.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12072.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以很多人反映你這個最簡單最實際就能夠直接回饋給護理人員你最主要是要讓這些護理人員留任然後也希望能夠增加這些護理的從業人員所以我們這不管是夜班的獎勵金或者達標獎勵金最主要就是要留住人才再增加人才嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12074.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12088.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
其實跟委員說明我們未來朝向簡化的方式就是看結果結果就是你的這個護理人力有沒有增加那有沒有達標直接來獎勵那至於說要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12089.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12112.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
像我們這個夜班今天填這個班表直接給我們是考慮到整個醫院它每個醫院的樣態不一樣各層級醫院的樣態是不一樣那它所需要的人力的配置也不一樣所以才讓醫院但是很清楚的是一定用在護理人員的身上不可以拿去做其他的用途所以我希望衛福部還是要好好去監督會 我們來監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12113.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12132.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我看因為沒有強制要求其實在使用這錢上面有蠻多的亂象所以很多護理人員說去做一些奇奇怪怪的事你就直接錢給我們反正我們給我們錢我們就願意留任然後很多人看福利這麼好他也會從事這個行業我們最主要就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12134.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12160.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
护理人员要增加然后原有的要留任就是要让这些人才留住所以我觉得说应该还是要听听他们的意见那当然说好像我们卫福部也有开了12场的会议针对这些护理团体护理人员还有护理主管所以我相信他们也有的反应就是其实最简单这奖励金是不是能够直接回馈到他们身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12161.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12189.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
有錢好辦事嘛那直接有增加他們的薪水給予他的肯定所以我覺得他們有提出這個反應我覺得還是要聽聽他們的心聲啦怎樣子最有效我覺得還是要朝這一方面去做好 謝謝我們來跟大家討論看看用什麼方式因為這每一個層級還有醫院的型態都不一樣他們的用法我們來研究看看有什麼更好的方法最主要要落實啦有錢才能做事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12190.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12211.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
所以剛好我也想到我在總辭職的時候有提出還是要請我們部長來重視一下我們部桃新屋分園2019年蔡英文總統從通過這個核定擴建核定通過到現在7年了到現在錢都還沒有編都還沒做7年了所以沒有錢真的沒辦法做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12213.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12234.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
刚好说没有钱没办法做事这一部分请部长针对这一部分为我们沿海的医疗资源来帮忙一下我们已经送了计划了我们来努力追一下这个请部长多协助好那我们再来讨论一下因为针对我看我们卫福部有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12236.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12244.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
空中轉整平台上線以來部長你知道這上線以來像今年總共故障幾次你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12245.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12267.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
故障就说那个连线出状况对啊就是出状况系统平台出状况其实出状况是六次啦你讲的两次是延误病患就医两次他系统出状况是六次但是这六次里面有两次是延误病患就医那针对这一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12268.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12294.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我們對這個廠商有做什麼處理嗎這個廠商是我們已經開發不過重點是這樣因為這個網路啊難免會有狀況有時候那個海嵐被被故意破壞還是什麼就會影響到所以我們現在一定建立的另外有一個備援機制就是說如果你這個這個平台如果網路不穩的時候那還是有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12297.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12314.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
打電話啦這些方式還是可以做還是有其他的作業方式不要因為這樣去延誤啦不會 不會去延誤部長講的就是你們之前說要研議設計雙機系統作業是不是不是雙機就是說就像我們醫院裡面也都會有這個SOP嘛萬一這個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12317.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12345.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
當機了那這時候怎麼啟動手工作業概念是一樣對啊那因為你後來這平台故障後來就用傳真的啊對就是打電話嘛應該還是有電話專線可以使用所以我覺得這部長還是要重視一下因為據我們了解其實這個狀況非常多啦那連裡面的其實很多的同仁都有在反映他說針對這個廠商常常發生故障好像對他其實也沒有什麼開發的機制好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12347.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12373.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
有一次罰了4萬多4萬多好像也是違約金的問題是不是好 那這個當然要讓這個平台穩定 故障率要降低如果這個廠商一直一而再再而上當然我們就換廠商嘛所以這個當然我們會去考慮但是還是要備援萬一有這個狀況的時候怎麼啟動另外一個做法不要去影響到病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12373.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12395.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
所以我说这部长一定要重视因为这空中转诊平台你说系统故障没有影响到就医那就算了可是你看这六次里面有两次真的是延误就医一次据我们了解他整个平台修复延误了11个小时还有一次病患延误送医耽误了一个半小时 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12395.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12424.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
所以这个对于这个病患时间上是非常非常的重要延误一个半小时可能就失去他的黄金治疗的时间我请市长跟委员说明跟委员说明这个平台主要是在做审查或是指导或协调所以当他因为资讯的关系断的时候其实是另外一个启动另外一个电话或传真所以它实际上不会影响到他后送的时间 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12425.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12446.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以這個部分其實我看中國時報聯合報自由時報其實都有在刊登我們針對我們空轉平台這一系列發生問題的前行居然還有說從上班開始聯絡到下班沒有回覆然後到後來說下班的時候說工程師已經下班了 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12448.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12463.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以這部分我希望部長你們還是要去了解一下然後後來聽說直接把問題回饋拿掉問題回饋拿掉就是說他們要反映問題沒有地方可以反映所以就沒有問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12464.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12485.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
因為你把問題回饋拿掉啊所以後來就沒有問題原來不是沒有問題是把問題回饋拿掉那而且你看五月份就故障三次後來想反應都沒有地方好去反應所以今天提出來喔因為這個希望部長要重視一下還有剛剛講喔其實之前衛福部有說要研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12487.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12502.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
雙機系統作業就是當空轉中心系統發生問題的時候另外一個系統平台馬上可以備案這樣子才不會延誤到我們這些病患萬一他本身救援的時間不能被耽誤好 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12502.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12519.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
跟委員說你剛剛提到說報怨平台被取消這個事情我們查清楚之後再給委員報告那第二個是不是要有一個雙機備援我們來研議研議之後因為我們很多的資訊系統都會有備援機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12522.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12535.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
對啊你去了解一下你看那個媒體在6月19號就刊登啊說把問題回饋拿掉啊然後所以他們連反應的地方都沒有所以並不是沒有問題是沒有地方好反應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12537.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12559.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這部分部長幫我們了解一下因為其實很多同仁都有私底下在抱怨這些事情我們查明之後再給委員一個報告那希望這個雙基系統作業趕快來去把它研議設計避免這樣子萬一平台系統故障有疏漏問題馬上有另外一個系統可以備案來使用好 謝謝部長好 謝謝部長 謝謝圖委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12566.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12594.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好 你出現了接續我們請劉建國召委質詢我出現了 因為沒套爆風來 先請石部長 江署長還有化學署的蔡署長還有我們蔡署長 召委好保定好 兩位署定好看一下這個片子吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12596.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12618.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這次出的問題的就是紅色護方原料那這一個是從新加坡進口 進口商現場查扣有五批嘛那五批中就有三批驗出大量的蘇丹紅這個色素然後分別是在今年的一月還有二月一月到二月然後然後啪啦就就直接跳到十月 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12620.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12631.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那剛剛很多委員垂詢江署長跟部長的時候是特別提到是哪邊接收到的訊息那我聽到你們的答覆那基本上那你那個訊息是不是也集中在10月左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12632.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12653.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
所以才趕快去再做這樣的一個清查並預防性的暫停販賣的下架應該是這樣對不對 不管你的訊息還是哪裡10月底的時候才有訊息對 10月底也就是說10月底之前一直到今年的2月這個中間足足將近有8個月時間通通沒有訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12655.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12678.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
也因為通通沒有訊息所以我們才沒有去做更積極的動作嘛應該是這麼說嘛 對不對那因為剛剛有委員在取消你的過程裡面是說你的訊息的來源是不是從抖音是不是從小紅書那當然署長打我不是嘛 對不對那你有其他的管道可以接收這樣的訊息但是署長依照你的經驗還有一般人的這樣的一個怎麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12683.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12701.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
也是可以講說一般人的經驗怎麼會8個月內通通沒有如果這些東西我們現在逐批的請他暫停然後販賣下架你要不要再往前推然後他們到底是從新加坡進口進來的整個期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12704.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12733.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
每個月 每週像這樣一個蘇丹紅的 複合性的這些護髮原料他每個月 每週到底多少批進來這8個月 從2月一直到10月 曾委員報告一下就是說化妝品的管理的時候在原料的管理部分跟成品的管理國際趨勢的確是往成品管理那這一次進來的這個他申請的批號其實是用其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12734.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12760.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
植物性的著色料所以這個著色料裡面也不應該有蘇丹紅所以他報裡面也沒有報蘇丹紅這件事情在裡面所以在這種前提之下是參為假冒之下的而且他提出出來的原料的成分產品是假的我就是要問署長說他參為假冒就以這個十月份的這個案例裡面接收到相關訊息之後來做這樣的預防性的暫停販賣下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12762.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12774.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那你應該趕快往前推嘛到2月這個中間10到2月這8個月的Range裡面到底他這樣參為假冒的行為有多少次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12776.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12800.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
有沒有往前追嗎 鮑威我們有往前批號我們現在批號是公布的是3批其實我們同仁門針對這個批號其實是穿透下去持續在查當中那我們也不限制在這3批那我們在有些GMP的廠裡面的一些原料有可能的我們持續在檢驗因為部長特別有進一步指示我們現在查到哪裡一定會公布到哪裡也不限制在這個批號裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12802.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12823.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以這部分我們會積極的查完之後跟全國國民做一些對 那反而我是提醒署長就是說限定在這些批號裡面從2月到10月到底進來的幾批嘛那你要不限定 那我當然樂觀其成嘛 對不對好 那我們先針對這幾批就8個月 這8個月到底是進來的幾批了 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12825.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12848.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
他的參委假冒行為到底幾次以上了這個有牽涉到後續你們的告發你們的罰款甚至於這個都要移送法辦嘛對不對好要怎麼處置嘛你現在就必須要斷然處置嘛針對有批要的這幾批就要馬上很明確的數字出來從2月到10月我只是講這8個月鏈局喔如果要再往前推那可能也推不了了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12849.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12872.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那你要再擴大那是更好我們目前查到目前這三批是有異常的其他的我們其實在他的批號裡面不是每一批都有異常就是特別的地方他並不是每一批都有異常所以查到的是這三批你如果沒有接到訊息你可能也不會查到有異常了你是有接到訊息你才到異常了對我們是說依照你們的經驗法則往前推 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12873.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12892.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這幾批我們就可以來斷定大致上他參與緩冒的行為行徑已經N次以上了嘛應該是可以這麼注意嘛對 這決定是不能排除的我們會積極的去討論所以我是覺得說啊這個能不能在再多久時間內可以公告讓全國國人知道因為剛剛我剛剛是看到媒體報的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12893.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12906.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
已經分別製成18項不過我聽部長的口中打五元是已經高達20項了對不對 有可能會再增加目前是我們請衛生局去盤查所以每天都有新的回報進度而且這些化妝品都已經換派給消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12910.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12928.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
對 所以有些是有攔截沒有出去有些是從市場上面攔截公佈之後回收下架持續在進行當中那目前公佈的20項裡面的都已經在持續的在進行我剛剛特別要求就是針對這三批其他的不是這三批你要自己追查當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12930.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12945.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
務必要 積極的來做那這三批在這八個月裡面可以怎麼樣的溯及既往可以怎麼樣的來清查他到底這樣的虛假冒已經幾次上行為能不能在兩週內可以給委員會一個交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12946.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12967.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
說明這邊跟委員報告一下說之前 現在這次進來是508嘛那我們會去研議這個部分在原料的部分 特別是化妝品原料部分去精進那對於剛才委員說要多少時間內能夠把我們現在批號我想應該在兩週內的 先對的批號因為是就可以吃到是哪些批號就這兩週內好不好 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12969.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12996.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
在這個禮拜一啦我是在委員會有特別請那個蔡署長來做說明嘛那化學署的蔡署長表示說管制的是1%以上的化學物質對不對好然後現在化專品檢驗出的是1.3ppm對不對遠低於這個獨管法規定的濃度所以是要是食藥署要負起追蹤的責任沒有錯吧應該是這樣嘛好我想對化學署的這種說法部長跟江署長有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12999.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13024.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我們其實這個原料其實1000多ppm從原料端是1000多ppm但是我們自身產品的時候最低的我們測到是1.3最低是1.3所以理論上這個參維假冒這個它沒有揭露出來是屬於有蘇丹紅加進去的確是它的困難但是1000多ppm是非常非常高的對 這裡的紅色複方原料中是高達1.486ppm對不對 1000多1000多 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13028.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13044.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
而且蘇丹紅的三瓶的濃度最高也達到54ppm對 假如有測到的成品製劑裡面的化妝品是50幾ppm好 我幫大家複習一下去年蘇丹紅辣椒粉的事件驗出來是多少 大家有印象吧蘇長你有印象嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13047.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13064.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
到PPB的level是更低的一個濃度18ppb嘛對不對換算起來是等於相當於0.018ppm嘛沒有錯嘛好 去年蘇丹農我們就知道這麼嚴重了這次的濃度是去年的3000倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13066.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13093.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
所以這邊跟委員報告化妝品的時候呢是對於化妝品的檢驗原來是用HPLC的是5ppm的檢驗極限所以我們這次也發現用這樣子的規格濃度其實對於成品的部分要去檢測出來有他的困難度所以我們緊急的開發達到0.2ppm的一個濃度的一個檢驗的一個層級那希望能夠對於這些成品以及這些原料能夠積極的 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13094.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13120.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我今天是要特別強調不管是用吃的還是抹在人體身上連一趴我們都不能接受應該是有這樣的決心跟作為所以我是要透過這個專報也不是要看食藥署推給化學署還是化學署推給食藥署我是希望部長這邊可以來集結這兩個署的單位甚至包含關務署的力量都要進來然後如何來進行這樣的一個防堵 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13125.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13149.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為大家這個你不通力合作這個事情一定會層出不窮嘛然後我剛剛特別講的那空窗的八個月到底發生什麼狀況所以我才希望石油水這邊可以積極來做這樣的一個調查嘛然後公告給我們這個全國國人知道而且現在是境外已經調和混合的這些原物料如果在邊境可以進行有效稽查跟查驗呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13151.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13161.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這個如果你們不通力合作但單憑一個單位我是覺得不是10月發生這個事情可能馬上是2月就會有這個事情在發生所以就像蘇昭偉講的這蘇丹紅會讓你們哄不讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13164.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13178.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
紅不退喔 會一直紅下去那你們會搞得七月過頭然後到時候台灣又一直出現的這種食安的問題然後連這個藥裝都一直出問題也不是說你們明年之後七月開始才要求這些藥裝廠必須要服務GMP喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13181.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13199.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
絕對不是這個樣子就可以解決了謝謝委員的提醒我們對於原料端的管理的部分目前雖然說是國際是在所謂的成品端我們對於原料端這特殊的一些色素的部分的確有積極去進一步去研議的空間我們會積極的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13200.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13224.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
好 我這邊要有個具體三項的要求啦如果有什麼問題就直接回應啦針對毒管罰除了目前已管制的化學物質環境部應與衛護部定期嚴厲公告納管食安藥裝一律的化學物質不容許有0.1%的風險存在然後一個月內環境部與衛護部等相關部會嚴厲要求事業單位將化學物質運作資料申報各部會的資訊系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13226.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13250.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
並藉階化學群處理 確認後回廠各部位檢核 建立共同把關的這個系統好 那第三 兩週內啦 環境部也要成立這個成立稽查專案然後針對具有食安風險 以利之毒性化學物質加強追蹤流向 避免流入食品或藥裝的供應鏈這應該可以嗎 莫過有一款雙氧水利潛大棟塔的事對 這在電工很發生過的事 可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13254.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13260.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
好 那可以就請回 請部長留下 好不好然後再請這個邵氏廳的廳長 中廳長對不起 對不起那個請顧副廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13269.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13292.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我是剛剛有聽副廳長因為聲音特別小不過我聽起來你的答覆各個委員都一直在強調這個量刑的刑度比較低基本上還是屬於比較個案是這樣但是11月19號的時候那個總廳長來講他是已經有到各地院跟全國各地院的法官坐下來座談 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13293.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13306.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
然後也從 我們是從家暴的這個量刑去做討論他的距離回應對我們委員會的回應是這個樣子他是覺得說雖然有些是個案但是在立法院所訂出來的法律這個論舉裡面從新政的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13309.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13339.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
一個大家的一個是不是有一個比較有一個具體的這樣一個共識應該來做這樣的一個量刑會比較恰當那當然他是有去討論那具體結果他是沒有答覆那我要在這邊跟副理長還有跟部長討論就是說你看這幾個數據可能都會像我是隱喻維吾爾法律的罪者基本上都是判刑太過輕所以相對他們覺得這個成本很低然後代價很低所以就是屢試不爽 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13339.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13360.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
然後我們的案件就會層出不窮那你現在看這一個在整個醫療機構所有醫療法第二四條第二項所列的防禦醫療業務的執行案件111年是260件到112年變成331件已經暴增了將近快三成了然後再來在113年我現在因為我這個資料現在拉出來是這樣113還沒有我用醫院來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13365.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13370.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
331件違反24條的第二項 結案248 未結案還有83然後行政不法39件然後這個刑案不起訴57件 罰款43件然後拘獄罰金緩刑14件 尤其徒刑34件然後這個會議可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13390.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13406.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
兩者如果以這個行政不法再加上這個刑案不起訴57件兩者總共加起來是96件佔這個全部案件差不多4成了換句話說每10件通報就4件最後沒有任何的處分啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13407.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13420.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
沒有任何處分你覺得這還是個案嗎這其一啦再來看能用錢處理的案件罰款是43件對不對拘罰金緩刑14件那加起來57件佔全部案件的23%這個還是個案嗎最後大家關注的判有期徒刑112.34件佔比是13.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13434.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13462.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
應該大家就可以看出來這個醫療的暴力吼 代價有多低啦我要提醒這件事情 這是其一那第二件事情 兩件事講完之後就請副廳長就統一答覆啦吼這個 我們現在大致上引用11月份發生的事情這去年在內湖三總有個暴力的醫療這個 這個 這個 這個犯罪犯罪人士嗆說 狼肉回頭不是報恩就報仇啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13463.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13480.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
然後潑尿威脅護理師他是從這個男子是從去年的9月底到三種戀屋醫院住院由護理師護理長照護9月30之後他突然傳進這個護理長辦公室說陽炎啊他如果得癌症他會去做做一件很想很久很想要做的事情就是要對 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13482.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13498.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
對這些護理人員下毒手這是其一然後12月19月底12月2號晚間這個男子再度向護理師討安眠藥招聚暴怒然後再丟出剛剛我講的那句話然後前後就是換了兩個罪刑最後法院是兩罪併罰然後應執行五個月的刑期 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13511.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13522.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我剛剛用那些數據 1、2年的數據然後再用這個案件兩個加起來變成兩罪併罰 應執行五個月我要請教副庭長你怎麼看待這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13524.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13551.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
請簡單回覆就好好不好也請拜託副院長你可能這個要對麥克風不然聲音比較聽不到委員報告一下就是說醫療法106條他第三項的規定就刑事不法的部分他是三年以下有期徒刑那這個刑度本來就不重那他的行為是強暴脅迫或者是其他恐嚇的行為然後妨礙醫療業務那如果說他今天有涉及到其他有傷害或其他的一個恐嚇的一些相關的一個行為的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13552.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13567.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那如果說醫生這部分是有提告的部分那這部分就妨礙醫療罪的部分跟所謂的傷害罪的部分是可以另外就是說它可以是分別論罪的就是說它這個部分行度來講的話是可以做一個比較充分的評價 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13568.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13594.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
所以我想說還是要回歸到個案因為每個個案的情況是不一樣假官他做一個偵查的時候他必須要先確認說這個假官他必須要去調查證據看說這個部分有沒有構成犯罪嫌疑如果有犯罪嫌疑的話他才會起訴到法院當起訴到法院之後有些被告可能會認罪或不認罪有些被告可能會和解有些被告可能會道歉當然也有說否認犯罪的情況所以每一個情形會不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13595.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13615.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那當然這個量刑的妥適與否那這個部分我們會在我們的這個就是所謂的教育訓練當中也跟法官提醒這樣一個量刑的一個議事以上我想我們在立法院所有的委員大家是積極在修法立法對不對就主要還是要這個嚇阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13618.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13635.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這個醫療暴力然後保護這些醫護人員在第一線的時候可以在做整個對病患的救治這個生命的維護基本上尤其在這種醫療機構的場所它是一個重中之重的地方那如果說今天我們修華麗華 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13636.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13663.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
然後一直到檢察官的起訴到法院的判刑都一直沒有辦法達到這樣的嚇阻而且我們明明也去看一些案子來講不管他在事後的後悔請求法官重新量刑等等等等但是這些案件就層出不窮然後一直降不下來那這個還叫做個案的認定我覺得這顯然有蠻大的落差啦就我個人的看法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13664.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13692.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
所以我是要提說那天那個廳長就已經有特別提到說他願意到他已經已經有在實際的行動他到各地院的法院去跟法官座談然後也是希望大家可以針對這個量刑的部分取得一定的程度這樣的一個共識嘛那這樣的事情始終從就近這五年來講這個醫療的暴力在醫院醫療機構發生的這案件一直沒辦法往下降然後我們看到了有將近一二年有將近四成不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13695.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13717.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
不起訴然後不判刑也不罰款的情況之下 佔了4成那顯然是不是這個法律我們是不是應該要來大修了還是說你們有什麼樣的比較更好的積極的這樣的一個建議那或者如果副理事長你還一直在用個案去做這樣的一個回應我覺得這會與社會的期待有所落差啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13719.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13744.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
謝謝委員 就是說關於說這個刑度本身就是說法定刑的區間範圍本身是不是能夠符合這個罪行相當那這個部分可能在逐條審議的部分我們會適時再表示意見好 謝謝那我是不是請 時部長都還沒有讓部長答覆了我是請部長還有司法院還有法務部應該是這個樣子是不是再如何提高這個醫療場所暴力行為的嚇阻效果嚇阻效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13745.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13762.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
你們是不是可以跨部會的 跨院的大家在兩個禮拜內坐下來好好討論是不是有什麼樣的積極作為可以來回應社會大眾還有回應委員會的各委員的這樣的一個期待 可以吧可以可以兩週內喔 OK好 謝謝部長 好 謝謝好 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉昭偉 謝謝部長昭偉執行20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13770.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13776.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
表示說我們執行時間是不夠的來 接下來我們請萊斯堡委員執行謝謝主席有請這個衛福部的司部長 司部長請賴委員好部長你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13799.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13818.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我記得賴清德總統在今年初有提到他說對醫院有存在不同工同酬他想要不同工不同酬這個事情使用衛護部怎麼做你怎麼因應呢耳根委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13819.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13836.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
這不同供不同的概念是這樣就是不同的處置之間以我們過去有個RVRVS就是說以一個基本的手術為標準然後看看投入的情形不同然後我們就有不同的支付標準所以這個是一種相對值的概念這不同供不同種 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13837.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13866.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
这是总统的一个政策宣示你要落实啊你怎么落实所以就要去调这个支付标准所以我们就先从当然这个很大支付标准几千项所以我们就先从人力罗至现在在困难的急重症我们要留在医院的优先去调整所以我们已经陆续调了不少个包含手术类的包含这个你大概这个因为赖总统的政策宣示你大概什么时候可以调整完 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13866.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13889.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
什麼時候這個會一直在調整這個沒有什麼叫調整這樣賴總統不滿意他講話講這麼大聲結果你都不落實會一直在落實當中譬如說像小兒科我們也調過一批了像去年我們是調這個新生兒跟重重度病房明年我們又編了小兒科又會繼續調你繼續弄第二個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13893.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13921.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
现在那个病床的我们不叫开工率了就真正使用率多少病床我们有一种叫做占床率占床率一种是叫做这个开床率使用率跟占床率有点不一样就是说我们有一个叫做许可床数许可床数但是真正开出来几成如果是以占床率来讲医学中心的占床率大概是近9成 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13922.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13935.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我記得他只有八成而已不是嗎沒有進九成八十幾%進九成占床率這裡面有一個很重要的原因是因為護理師不夠請問護理念完護理真的做護理師的有幾個幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13938.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13960.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
七成有沒有 七成都沒有啊取得護理執照的 就是有護理證書的有護理執照去從事護理的比例都高有直登的 直登率是差不多63%對啊 很低啊你跟國外來比的話 你的薪水高啊其實對護理師來講 我覺得普遍加薪啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13961.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13983.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
有要給他普遍加薪啦有有有現在就是朝怎麼有呢沒有啊有有有你怎麼加我們一方面像這個我們調整的你可以全面的護理師不管他在什麼場合每個月加一萬要加在哪一個地方因為護理的我們算過啊只有大概兩百多億啊也不是很多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13984.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14009.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
對不對 每一個人加一萬護理的工作性質其實還是蠻不一樣的樣態還是多啦有時候在ICU他有時候在一般的病床我們現在是已經今年現在就調整了這個護理費25億啦 四年會調100億太少了 一年25億一年要加一個零啦一年給他調250億還差不多勒25億太少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14013.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14033.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這個我們有很多的措施還有這個夜班津貼我們也加了這個四十幾億然後再加上三八六並比我們有六種不同的方案啦別忘了趙少康那時候選副總統他在講啦這個護理師每個月每人每月加一萬大家歡迎到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14035.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14062.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
你們就不敢落實他今天如果選上的話就落實啦跟你講我們要這個長期的來做啦我們各種不同的措施最後一個問題喔這個蘇丹紅怎麼會都進不掉怎麼會去年是食物的問題今年又是化妝品的問題到底是什麼蘇丹紅到底是什麼你們請問這個來源是什麼地方境外輸入是不是對 境外輸入的這是從海外進來的從什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14063.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14080.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
這個是一個新加坡商不過來源的話要再查清楚它會不會是中國來的因為一開始爆發是在中國這個禁不掉 去年是食品對不對這個什麼辣椒粉 調味料 醬料等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14082.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14108.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
對 他是把它參成色素啦他把它當成色素這個問題就很嚴重可是我們怎麼感覺你都進不了蘇丹紅永遠都很紅怎麼會這個樣子進不掉你現在看它是化妝品請問對食品有沒有要加強經驗食品之前已經查過一波了沒有問題的食品已經查完了那現在是第一次發現用在化妝品上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14109.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14137.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
好最後一個這個剛剛看到那個賴總統最新講話說要提1.25兆的特別預算要加強等等等等怎麼樣就是說要打仗了加強這個1.25兆我就請教你你們衛福部有沒有對說如果台灣發生戰爭如何維持正常的醫療體系運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14140.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14160.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我們大概也有對於緊急狀況下的韌性醫療那從這個醫療的三層級這個急救責任醫院 社區急救站到全民互助那麼以及這個藥品的供應韌性我們都有相對應的我具體建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14163.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14188.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
賴總統提的一點奧兆七年要花這麼多錢平均一年大概兩千億衛福部要去爭取一點經費啦怎麼樣能暫時能夠維持你一定的醫療韌性就醫療韌性要加進來你們想過這個問題我們是目前已經有一個計畫不是不是 他現在一點奧兆你有沒有角色扮演啦我問你這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14189.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14201.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
我們再進一步了解在行政院會你去爭取啊這個醫療打仗的時候醫療要正常運作啊醫療韌性 現在什麼都講韌性醫療韌性非常重要 對不對要給你錢啊要去爭取這筆預算1.25兆 7年1.25兆一年1800億左右很大一筆喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14211.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14222.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
對不對 我們要 衛護部要尬一腳啊要爭取一點 你這個打仗的時候護理師不能給他跑掉啊醫生不能給他跑掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14223.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14249.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
你同意嗎你都沒有想過這個問題你都沒有想過這個問題我跟你講啦 那個錢都不知道怎麼用我跟你講你要尬一腳啊你要說我這個衛福部很重要啊這個機會他一定要照提高醫療任性給護理師加薪這比啥更好啦比你說的更好啦好 謝謝委員的提醒好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14251.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14265.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
接下來請楊瓊瑩委員來做詢問謝謝主席 楊瓊瑩發言邀請部長請石部長楊委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14274.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14289.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
部長好 我們繼續來討論護理不足醫師分部失衡的問題因為我們知道國內的醫師跟護理人員的人力需求以及分部上是有很大的精進空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14290.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14317.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那我們又看到了目前我們有license的護理師大概有31萬人但是我們只有19萬人來執業那麼真正在醫院裡頭執業的是只有12萬人所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教護理師人員一直不足的原因那到底我們衛護部要怎麼去做請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14318.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14333.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
當然這個謝謝委員的關切那我們在改善就是像您說的這個我們今年的護理人力已經比去年大概增加大概4900多位那跟回到這個疫情前的水準差不多但是它的分佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14334.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14348.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
跟以前不一樣以前新增的護理人力大概七八成都會留在醫院現在大概只有一半留在醫院有一半留在醫院以外那當然這一方面是外面的這個多元就業的關係長照系統發展但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14351.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14376.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
这个医院的辛劳度是比较高所以如何去改善他们的职业环境友善的护理职业环境就是我们最重要的目标要怎么做呢你从头到尾一直点出真正的原因既然知道原因应该要有应对就是工时长就是薪资低就是压力高 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14378.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14402.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個公安差請假困難職場環境惡劣等等等部長你還不是部長的時候你就很清楚這個問題你現在是部長你更清楚這些問題所以到底您跟勞動部我們到底要怎麼樣跨部會有這個機制去做因為一直講一直講不是辦法你必須要解決有應對的策略出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14403.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14418.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
請就說明第一個當然從這個津貼我們有這個夜班津貼然後有這個三班護病筆另外呢把這個他的loading他的負荷要下降所以我們推動這個住院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14419.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14435.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那個叫做整合照護整合照護就是有照服員來協助護理降低這個護理的負荷那以今年來講我們是編了5.6億他反應很不錯那明年我們會增加到25億總統先生說三班互併筆要入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14442.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14457.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
之前的邱部長告訴我說在任內會完成他努力朝這個方向請教部長你的立場呢我跟他的立場一樣你跟他的立場一樣那三班戶並比你們現在的進度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14458.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14475.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
要入法你現在的進度呢我們現在以我們今年跟去年來相比因為我們這個三班互併筆的獎勵去年才開始那今年跟去年相比已經有改善本質是請教你總統先生是說三班互併筆要入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14476.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14504.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那邱部長說他朝這個方向去努力而且他信誓旦旦說在這個任內會完成所以本席請教你三班互併筆的修法你的立場 路法你的立場是什麼我們朝這個方向努力那你的現在的進度呢現在我們的達標率三班互併筆的達標率大概差不多在六七成了請教你路法你的法現在的進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14505.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14519.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
還沒有還沒有我們現在還沒有還沒有總統先生已經到現在已經要多少一年多的時間我們用獎勵的措施部長請針對本席的提問三班互併筆修法的進度到現在是還沒有的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14521.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14539.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
到現在還沒有草案出來是不是我們還在研議當中難怪外界說根本是口說說沒有進度本席具體建立你必須要實際行動的進度本席不希望跳票你剛才說的你跟邱副長一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14540.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14559.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這個方向嘛你必須要有進度你們現在採取的獎勵制度請問現在大家外界說的有的護理師拿不到有的被苛扣下去本席在剛開始的時候我就告訴邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14560.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14576.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
你現在還沒有入法的時候你要怎麼樣措施你們提出行政部門提出獎勵措施我們勉為其難的接受暫時性的方案來協助我們的護理師所以到現在為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14577.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14597.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
沒有辦法 本行一直建議必須要將這一筆款項是真正的用在我們的護理師的身上那現在呢我們的原則也是這樣原則是這樣 結果呢在護理師身上那結果呢 也沒有被苛扣拿到這筆錢一定是達標了他有達到護病筆才能夠拿到這一筆錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14598.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14615.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
所以事實上就是要用就是護理會留下來會增加才可能達標啊所以用這個獎勵的方式你這個說法裡面矛盾重重你沒回答本席的提問到底有沒有你這個款項下去被扣掉沒有到我們的護理師 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14616.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14636.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
有反映到没有拿到的我们就下去查就要求查的结果怎么样有有有有有有有有查的怎么样查的结果给委员参考有没有这步伐没有给我们的护理师被克扣起来有用在别的不符合我们要求的用途的对我们就要求他改正 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14637.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14657.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
你要求要改正所以这个是事实存在嘛难怪护理师认为我勉为其难我愿意继续努力配合结果你们所谓的奖励还是有被苛扣本期具体要求不能再有这个现象本期具体要求不能再有这个现象我们也是这个立场 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14658.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14680.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
你們在這個立場你們更應該要落實啊對不對所以您剛剛說的我們還沒有入法你們也還沒有動作你現在用獎勵有這樣的情況你一定要去查證不能不能在這個現象所以你們開了一個假日清急症中心來當解方用加開 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14681.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14708.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那個跟這個護理的是另外一回事另外一回事本席告訴你你覺得現在呢你這個解放你這個加開可以去解決這個問題嗎如果你的分級制度大家沒有去宣導沒有去觀念你可以解決這個問題嗎我們人民他一旦他的就醫的這個方法目前為止他有他的觀念在就醫你沒有改變他的觀念你加開這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14710.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14731.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
是解方吗他的成效是如何所以要加强这个观念的改变不要亲政都到这个医学中心第一个必须要加强第二个你的真正原因还是在你的能力跟心智问题你要怎么样有足够的人你要怎么样有足够的心智来做 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14732.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14761.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
他們願意繼續留下來31萬人有license只有19萬人在只有19萬人在職業同時在醫院的只有12萬人你剛剛自己也說的醫院的困難很多那你要怎麼樣去解決你加開了這個UCC到底你的成效效能會如何本校請問的是這個你如果能力你如果薪資沒有辦法母體抽薪去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14762.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14789.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
那你再加開任何的事項這個成效會達標嗎我們多管齊下啦我們有12項的護理策略在推動部長您提出的方案你必須要去檢視會您的回答你多管齊下本學要提問的這兩項議題第一個不能再挪用第二個你的路法到現在草案都還沒有你什麼時候會提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14789.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14794.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
總統 你要聽總統他說他的任命要完成你什麼時候預計三當互併筆的入法草案會提出來請告訴我一個時間點我們持續的在研議你持續研議什麼時候要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14806.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14827.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我們會按照實際的推動的情形來請問實際的推動情形是什麼時候會有你的查案出來我們護理是要問的是這個你告訴我時間點我們會持續的去討論你的持續總統說他任內要完成耶現在快過一半你連查案都還沒有啟動耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14829.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14846.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我們討論持續的在穩定的修正請問你會不會把三方互併比的入法法案提出來朝這個方向 朝這個方向朝這個方向什麼時候會提目前還沒有時間表已經過快要 目前還沒有時間表我想全國的護理師都聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14848.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14863.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
都聽到 但是我們實際上已經在提升了三班互併比的三班互併比的路法 希望您要有進度會有進度 謝謝謝謝好 部長請回接下來請羅廷偉委員來做詢問好 召委有請部長 謝謝來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14880.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14904.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
羅委員好部長也特別在這邊補充因為我們也都關心護病比的一個問題那剛剛其實不管是楊委員跟賴委員也有提到我們大家現在也有看到全社會任性的防衛衛福部也有一個角色對吧任性委員會有你們嗎社會醫療的一個部分但是在整個賴總統宣布這個1.25兆的時候他有沒有跟你討論相關的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14907.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14910.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
就初步的了解這個是屬於國防部的預算但是我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14912.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14938.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我覺得國防戰時醫療他也佔著一個很重要的一個角色所以為什麼剛剛賴思寶委員有提到你應該要去在這個部分中佔有一個一席之位我覺得預算有一些部分應該運用在所謂的國防醫療這個部分是很重要的那我就簡單一個例子我想國人應該都能夠體諒就是為什麼大家都會爭取奧運舉辦奧運 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14941.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14969.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
辦完以後他的場館會去做延伸永續性的一個建設可能做住宅商業甚至有的是作為運動設施開放全民使用那這些預算雖然用在是國防但是暫時的醫療也是國防韌性很重要的一環能不能在這個投入到一些技術的引進專業的培育或者是醫療人才我覺得這個在平時能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14971.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14988.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
去著重然後這些預算能夠用在部分的衛福部的投資我覺得不管是暫時的轉換或者是平時我們的醫療專業這都是很受益的所以我也希望您在這個部分能夠跟行政院跟總統有這個機會來就見言這部分可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14988.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15015.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
可以跟委員說明其實我們已經有一個醫療韌性有有有我都知道我都知道但是我們又看到另外又畫了一個餅嘛我相信平時所以我就問全韌性這個防務的部分委員會你有加入我都知道所以你本來就有一席之位所以代表你也是整個社會防衛的一個很重要的立環嘛那所以今天談到了1.25兆國防的這個預算我覺得用在醫療我相信全民能夠接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15016.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15043.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
尤其他平時能夠作為整個醫療量能服務全民的然後再來暫時又能夠做轉換這個部分我希望你能夠再極力的爭取我們會滾動式的去修正我們的這個韌性醫療的計畫還有需要會向行政院再來我想跟你討論到的就是蘇丹紅那現在台灣首件化妝品檢出這個禁用蘇丹的這個色素現在這個原料廠商啊進口商呢易紅企業有限公司啊自新加坡進口這個紅色複方 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15044.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15071.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那目前是以什麼樣的名目來進這個高濃度禁用色素的化妝品原料有沒有涉及偽造文書文這邊我協助做了簡單的回答這回答的他進來的是用所謂的其他植物性著色料進來所以有沒有涉及偽造文書裡面完全不能有蘇丹紅所以他的檢驗報告裡面其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15072.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15099.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
沒有提到蘇丹烘有蘇丹烘一定進不來嘛所以的確有委員所提到的那目前請檢調再協助我們所以我們希望偽造文書這個部分也要重視是的一起辦理那這個部分就是本席要今天提醒的重點之一那關務署在接貨食藥署通報以後呢有沒有全面去清查過去數年義烘企業或者是同一個新加坡原廠輸入的相關貨物報關的記錄有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15104.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15122.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這邊請署名 謝謝官務署署名委員好 那官務署在接獲食藥署的通知之後我們就依照食藥署的要求把資料交給所以食藥署有要求你是全面清查過去的嗎至少在 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15124.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15153.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
113年7月到今年113年7月在更之前他有沒有再進口我認為啦簡單講就是應該要全面清查因為有問題的廠商我相信他不會只是一時興起所以應該要全面的他進口任何的東西不管是113年以前都也應該一併的去稽查我想當時啊我們可以看到他有沒有這樣子的一個批次或其他業者稱進口這樣同款或類似的原料有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15155.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15183.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
這個要在深入清查的時候延伸調查嘛 對不對同一批次或者是相關的不同廠商但是進口同一個新加坡原廠這個部分我們都應該列為延伸去調查的一個部分嘛 可以嗎沒有問題好 那再來我們看到化妝品衛生管理法並無針對違法的部分尤其是涉及這個摻尾假冒的這個行為 刻以心擇導致業者可能面對暴力心存僥倖 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15185.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15209.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
這樣子甚至是把這個罰還當作是成本嚇阻力道著實有限所以本案檢調調查我們後續也希望能夠一併的來追蹤我們看到現在驗出蘇丹4號濃度高達1000多ppm如同食藥署所說濃度高這已經就是明顯的參為假冒的一個詐欺行為請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15211.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15219.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
食藥署都已經說了是明顯的參違假冒的詐欺行為像這樣子的一個情況我們要用什麼樣的理由去移送檢調 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15223.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15245.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
他摻尾 摻尾假冒我們就就按照我們的這個這個因為化妝品完全 我剛剛有講嘛針對刑法裡面的191條的第一項以及339條兩個項次裡面他都牽涉到違法裡面最所謂摻尾假冒炸氣的行為那這個部分因為最後的起訴的部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15246.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15267.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
以請檢調協助做最後確定但是我們的提請做犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為的部分我們原先是依照這樣子的原則請檢調能夠協助我們不希望他最後只是因單純的詐欺行為而移送檢調啦台灣詐欺判得有多重大家有目共睹啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15268.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15296.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
所以我要講的是現在化妝品衛生安全管理法裡面並沒有站在這樣子的一個實質行則然後來做一個參為假冒的部分來刻以嚴重的一個形式所以類似的蓄意添加的案例存在的應該不少只是未被揭露此時此刻我們更應該去好好的秉持以維護消費者的權益為原則重新檢討化妝品的衛生安全管理法的一個可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15298.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15312.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我們現在就責不法廠商刑責相關的一個做法賀止他們不要再有這樣子的一個作為去維護消費者的一個衛生安全保障國民部長您覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15314.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15333.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
我想這個委員提到的那麼我們現在當然是按照這個刑法來移送那我們再研究一下有沒有需要這個同罪行法定的我希望你能夠再研擬一下我覺得現在化妝品衛生安全管理法修法的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15334.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15356.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
看似最後的結論是站在化妝品廠商的立場來思考所以我覺得有必要去做滾動式調整只是此刻是最佳的時刻你應該好好的研擬那再來就是我們今天的醫療法我們要去守護醫療人員防範這個醫療暴力早上我也提案說明現在推動的醫療法24條106條的修法內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15359.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15378.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
我要講的是我們現在有法不代表民眾有感醫療暴力還是非常的嚴重所以我們真心患崛起醫療人員應該要守護他們今天法律變嚴了保護範圍變廣了不代表醫療暴力就會崛起就像酒駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15379.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15406.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
所以我要問的是我們已經宣示對醫療暴力零容忍但是請問一下具體的步驟有什麼主管機關有沒有針對醫療暴力去協助訂定SOP有嗎有跟委員說明確實在這個不是只有法之外啦我們還有一些行政的作為所以包含我們要求的一些門禁管制包含就急診的門禁管制包含這個場所的安全維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15407.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15425.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
还有相对的SOP这都是事前的但是我是说发生事件的时候医护院方警方或者是保全相关的SOP教育训练这个部分的定定有没有清楚的流程让他们能够知道这部分应该加强我们会再去滚动式修正来来 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15426.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15452.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
趙偉站起來了 趙偉最後30秒我想醫療暴力發生的時候醫護人員不外乎就是通報上級冷靜處理離開現場這三種選擇我認為太過消極要怎麼樣能夠更加具體的守護他們再來部長有沒有去了解各大院所有沒有防範醫療暴力的設施設備這個部分你應該要有一個數據資料可以提供嗎可以我們來了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15452.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15476.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那我們之前是有要求做門禁管制啦對 我這個剛剛也有講過但是我是說發生這個行為的時候怎麼自保那現在相關的設備有沒有這個設施或者是他們有沒有辣椒水之類的這個部分有沒有建制你應該要去調查有相關的數據麻煩你一個月提供可以嗎可以可以 我們來進一步了解如果沒有應該要趕快亡羊補牢 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15481.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15507.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
接下來請陳營委員來做詢問謝謝主席 那麻煩請石部長還有機關署羅署長羅署長好 陳營委員好部長好 署長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15509.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15535.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
我相信這個醫護人力不足的問題已經發生很長的一段時間了那我相信衛福部也已經盡量的在薪資權益工作管理還有支持上投注相當大的心力只是說截至目前為止成效整體看來不是很顯著這就表示問題沒有掌握得很清楚有必要就是再釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15536.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15561.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
前提是我们不能一直要求说每一位护理人员他们都要有人医护人员都要有人心人数或者护理人员要有南丁格尔的精神我们要从人的角度去看待这些问题同时呢有很多的这个医疗专业人力其实也是不足的例如说这个医事放射师也就比较少被关注那因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15561.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15590.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
今天我想说就来跟我们两位优秀的医师跟首长一起来讨论先请教署长从这个卫福部的定义您现在算是职业医师吗是我现在有职业登记在疾管署的健康中心好那在您担任公职之前服务的单位是什么服务了多久台大医院从2003年到2008年就是五年期间担任住院医师从内科第一年做到内科第五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15591.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15600.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
好 那您在機關署服務的第一份工作公職是什麼就是防疫醫師 當時是防疫醫師考試招生考試進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15604.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15622.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
好 所以就是除了公職醫師高考以外轉任公職還有需要什麼樣的考試資格嗎我沒有通過高考但是就是有這個醫事人員任用條例所以可以用這個醫事人員的方式招募進疾管署 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15622.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15638.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
好 謝謝我想羅署長的防疫專業跟認真負責是大家有目共睹的衛福部也有其他很多優秀的醫師也擔任公職也都沒有在職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15640.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15666.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那我們也發現就是醫師在轉換擔任這個公職的跑道其實也沒有很困難那我相信部長跟羅署長還有我想江署長也一樣跟這個多數的公務人員醫師您請坐不用上台那也選擇擔任這個職務其實是真的就是犧牲奉獻的精神那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15667.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15687.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
最直接的就是收入減少了非常多因此大家幾乎對你們都是抱持肯定的態度相對的如果轉換跑道很容易收入沒有減少又變高 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15689.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15703.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
如果是這樣的狀況我們一直要求人家留在臨床喔可能就非常困難了那部長我要請教就是說公職護理師轉任這個負責行政的公務人員是不是需要其他的這個考試資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15706.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15734.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
如果是目前我們有機關購如果你是在機構就是醫院裡投資比較容易從那個約聘人員變成這個正職的人員就變成有公務人員身份 這個比較容易但是如果是要跨到機關因為有這個人員任用的資格的限制就不是那麼容易 要看單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15735.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15756.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
好那這個但是有難到什麼樣的狀態嗎因為現在基本上我們不是以衛福部來講我們很多是要衛生行政或者是那個衛生技術才能夠任用所以就沒有辦法直接直接轉換了 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15757.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15783.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
好我想這個跟他的男喔應該是就是額度就是名額不多啦原額上比較少一點的困難啦那這個薪資待遇福利喔是不是跟一般公務人員一樣就是以衛福部的這個科長薪資水準大概有八九萬但一般醫院的這個資深護理師能跟得上這樣的水平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15785.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15798.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
资深的护理师要看他是做了几年还有没有担任行政职等等不一样落在四五万比较居多吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15800.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15828.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
这个可以再回头了解一下但是你说到八九万领到这么多可能也不多可能要到主管要有这个主管职的所以如果有机会的话转任条件不困难那我相信多数人还是会选择担任公职而不是留在医疗院所去轮夜班那这个牺牲正常作息跟社会互动牺牲正常作息跟社会互动的机会其实这些都是考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15830.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15849.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
那部長我再請教你知不知道這個一般這個醫院的這個護理人力被誰偷走被偷走多少被偷走被搶走被偷走流向是不是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15850.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15876.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
就怎么样流失嘛主要原因嘛以现在我们看每年的这个护理的值登的变动情形是在医院的值登的成长是变少了到这个诊所还有长照机构等等这些是增加中好你有点出几个但是你还有漏了一个大漏洞那 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15878.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15905.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
這樣好了部長你知不知道勞動部有一個執法叫做職業健康保護規則這裡面第三條規定事業單位勞工人數在300人以上或從事特別危害健康作業之勞工人數在50人以上者應視其規模及性質僱用從事勞工健康服務之護理人員辦理勞工健康服務那第四條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15906.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15934.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
事业单位劳工人数在50人以上未达300人者应该是其规模性质特约医护人员办理临场健康服务那我要请教你了你知道我们国内50人以上的这个中小企业总共有几家吗这个就没有掌握了那我再请教我国200人以上的大型企业总共有几家 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15937.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15954.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
不清楚好那我跟你講這個驚人的數字光是200人以上的大型企業就有將近2萬家你可以做一下數學我們要流失多少護理人員很恐怖吧你嘴巴都開了那這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15957.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15978.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
這些這個就是他們這些企業都必須依法僱用專任的這個償戶人力每家至少一位喔至少一位他們多請也是可以的那這樣子就已經吸納走幾萬名的這個護理人員了那另外喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15980.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16001.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
50人到200人的中型企業我認為至少也有幾萬家因為我們的中小企業截至目前為止登記就有171萬多了你們可以算算看就是你們可能要回頭好好的去盤算一下去盤點一下50人以上的到底總共有幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16003.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16019.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
所以這些幾萬家他們都是要這個特約受僱於管理顧問公司的廠戶去服務那這些事業單位到底吸收了吸納了多少的護理人力所以我今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16021.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16046.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
我想部長你剛剛有舉例長照診所你就是沒有提到這個因為你可能忘了還是不知道有這個執法因為這個執法勞動部自己就可以決定了所以只要兩年的護理工作經驗再加上52小時的職業健康教育訓練就可以得到這個職安署他們就可以得到職安署的訓練證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16047.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16074.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
然後就轉任了這麼容易然後你看一下他們52小時都在學什麼就是你們看一下簡報比較奇怪了勞工選工配工復工概論人因性危害預防概論還有當然勞工健康保護相關法規看起來有點關係但是護理人員是要去學法規的嗎所以我想這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16076.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16083.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
52小時偷走你們幾萬的護理人力很恐怖吧那薪資福利待遇喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16085.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16113.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
我想不会比在医疗院所查结果你们看问题呢都只看到就是说留下来的护理人员的问题那你们都没有去思考留出去的人力是到底是怎么样留出去的不瞒您说不久之前呢有位这个护理师呢请我们办请我们办公室帮忙推荐他们要他要去哪里他要进台积电去做厂户成为台积电的正式员工 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16114.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16141.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
想想看去那裡很開心多少人夢寐以求你光年終就可以分多少誰還要待在醫院對不對那麼台灣50人以上的企業我們現在部長不知道有多少家但是當初做出這樣決定的時候衛福部難道你們不知道會吸納多少護理人才嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16143.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16170.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
所以這個他們轉入了這個勞動部的職業健康領域當時是110年111年更改的防疫期間大家你們整個部會上下全部都在忙著處理COVID-19就是這個時候被勞動部趁虛而入趁機偷襲搶走了 偷走了這麼多的這個人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16172.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16188.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
所以希望你們可以了解一下這幾年到底轉出了多少人力他們做的業務是不是真的有益我相信在這個廠房裡面嚴重一點的還是要送醫院啦簡單的應該自己可以處理啦那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16188.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16211.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
就是說如果沒有的話 那你們應該跟勞動部討論一下喔否則勞動部做了這件事情 他在表面上美其名喔他是 他賺了美名啊 因為他們好像名義上就是好像在照顧勞工但是呢 實質上他們是傷害了全國國人的健康權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16211.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16236.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
我要在這裡很嚴正的指出這個問題那我也相信護理人才短缺絕對不是說衛福部單一部門你們就可以解決的那最後本期要強調就是醫務人力要從這個教育訓練專業資格業務職長工作條件然後一直到這個職業的這個醫療院所都是專屬醫療法律未接的規定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16237.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16266.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
經過非常嚴格跟專業的訓練但是呢這些法案當然這些這些法案都是要經過這個立法院審議通過的那今天呢治安署他們卻只用一個執法一個行政規定就這樣悄悄的偷走了你們這一群這個已經是幾百個學分幾百個實習時數然後養成培訓出來的專業人力就這樣子流失掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16268.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16278.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
他們都是負責我國人民的健康最重要的臨床照護但是只要52個小時他們就不見了這麼容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16280.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16305.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
所以我擔心這個不是我們國家的福分那你們的人才呢看起來都不用阿嬌阿出手就這樣輕易的流出了然後也都不再接受你們衛福部的這個監督管轄我相信勞動部職安署沒有這個專業能力去監督管理這麼專業的醫護人員他們也沒有能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16306.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16321.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
去評估說到底怎麼樣去發揮他們的他們有沒有發揮他們的專業能力所以因為這個職安署他們裡面沒有任何一個人是公務人員他們沒有任何一個公務人員是醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16323.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16347.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所以他們也沒有這個醫療行政的專業思維去看待是不是浪費了國家人才的專業能力所以我希望部長你們好好盤點一下到底流出去多少人力然後你們的專業用你們專業去評估這幾年他們到底做出了什麼績效那為什麼一定要偏偏就是要醫師跟護理師難道公共衛生是不行嗎那職業衛生技師不行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16349.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16374.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
如果勞動部真的這麼需要產戶我建議他們自己去教育自己去養成不要偷你們訓練出來的人才所以不要從這個國家嚴重已經短缺醫護人力開出這麼大缺口的情況下我認為衛福部對全國醫療院所對全體的國人你們這樣就開這樣的缺口其實對國人是不公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16375.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16404.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
謝謝委員提醒我們來了解一下掌握這些人員的動向同時也來理解這個他的這個主要的工作的內容那是不是有多元化這個人才羅志的可能性這樣好謝謝那你們會需要多少時間呢我們我們去盤點一下大概一個月內我們把它盤一下好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝我們休息一下等我們的召委質詢完一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16405.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16430.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
還是陳穎委員要帶沒有你帶到劉建國下來就可以了他在質詢我上去等劉建國委員下來要不然我們就是他要多久那我們只能休息休息到我們的召委質詢結束下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16549.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16574.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16578.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16581.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16612.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16615.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16646.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16661.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16695.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16709.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16760.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16778.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16863.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16867.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16891.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16894.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
好 我們繼續開會接下來請林署委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16901.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16907.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
謝謝主席喔是不是請我們這個部長部長還有等一下副廳長好了副廳長還在嗎還在還在好OK |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16923.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16933.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
這個從去年從去年修法修這個刑事訴訟法到現在已經一年半了一年半了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16937.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16959.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
這個根據法務部最新的調查你知道從醫省會從去年的5月你們就暫緩受理刑事醫事案件委託鑑定以後到目前為止檢查機關的醫療糾紛未解的案件數一共有多少件嗎以至於偵查陷入停滯的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16961.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16973.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
剛才法院講了他們有幾件個案上游檢察官都沒有辦法辦了當然沒有案子送到司法機關啦所以司法機關剩下那個都是懶三的啦那你知道現在有多少件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16975.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16994.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
跟委員報告 往年我們一年接受鑑定的案子大概在五六百件已經一年半了所以這中間就沒有辦法受理那重啟了之後就是我們五月開始有開始提供醫療專業意見到目前為止是收了三百多案 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16996.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17014.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
現在檢查機關醫療糾紛未結案的件數總計有654件654件都陷入停滯的困境因為無法繼續偵查然後去年我總質詢的時候邱太元部長說我們要開始啟辦一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17018.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17026.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
據了解這個可以解決九成的醫療糾紛的案件可以解決無法進行偵辦的問題請問石部長事辦的計畫現在收了你說300多件成案的有122件 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17035.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17062.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
已經進行審議的有32件請問你們從5月開始收案到現在已經完成專業意見的件數然後送給法務部參考的件數有幾件32件就是剛剛沒有啦進行審議中的32件啦你們送給法務部說這我的完成報告然後給這個法務部的幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17064.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17072.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
零啦 零啦 師長都不清楚都已經要修法了 師長到現在還搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17074.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17102.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
我們查一下完成審議送給法務部的零零然後呢你連檢查送給檢查署都沒有辦法了更何況要去談送給司法院參考有幾件零都是零所以你們講醫療專業意見的示範計畫更何況你再去講說能不能成為證據沒有辦法完全沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17103.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17129.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
到現在這個有你剛才有報告你講說這個不是辦法嗎不是辦法的辦法嘛對不對對啊不是辦法的辦法是要那個釜底抽薪的解決釜底抽薪的解決釜底抽薪要怎麼解決本來司法院我們要解決這個案子是我們一般人民國民的感情老是認為依依相互嘛不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17130.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17143.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
一一相互 所以要改革 然後提出來是說鑑定的人也都是專業的嘛 鑑定人你要負起更多的法律的責任啊你們要具名啊 要拒絕啊 要來法庭交叉結論啊本來是站在病患的立場都認為醫病不平等 專業不平等 權威不平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17154.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17172.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
所以還認為說一一相互嘛然後司法院呢怎麼做司法院沒有辦法好好的跟我們溝通司法院呢直接說好我改刑事訴訟法每一個證據就是一定要簽名要拒絕要來現場交叉結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17174.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17199.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
司法院當初修法 罔顧衛福部的意見也不願意聽進去人家的問題然後就這樣便宜行事 就改了改了放了一把火 什麼都不管司法院 請問我們機案機在檢查單位沒有辦法審理沒有辦法釐清責任是誰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17201.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17211.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
被告醫生有沒有責任也不知道這就是你們要的改革嗎 司法院副廳長來這個就是你們要的答案嗎 一年半了 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17214.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17232.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
謝謝委員 那關於鑑定這個部分我們是就請我們的主責法官黃法官來做說明 謝謝我沒有要講 我在問你說這就是你們要的怎麼解決我要問的是怎麼解決 你不要跟我講鑑定制度我在問你 沒有人要鑑定然後檢查機關積了快700個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17234.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17253.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
然後一年半都為此原狀 不願意解決現在是怎樣 國家 這個國家沒有人想要解決大家不想得罪醫界 也不想得罪法界然後這樣子就在那裡然後呢 犧牲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17254.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17270.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
看病的人民眾的權利然後還要有我有立法委員叫我扛責你們放任不管叫我來扛責然後呢叫我跳進來然後再派人來修理林淑芬你告訴我怎麼解決 你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17274.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17303.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
來 先跟委員報告一下 就是關於這個部分的話我們在修法之後 我們其實有開了好幾次的不要跟我講協調會議 沒有解決啦那你告訴我這個結束的訊息的部分是怎麼樣至少在法院審理中依舊案件的部分即便依審會這邊沒有辦法配合 仍然我們還是有找到其他的外部單位可以協助來進行你這樣胡說八道什麼 我沒有問你 你們內部已經在審理當中的我再問你還沒進到司法院檢查機關沒有辦法啟動的那600多案件怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17304.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17309.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
那這邊的話可能必須要有法務部這邊來做說明資保約是處理有關於審理的部分我們這邊的話沒有起訴怎麼審理沒有起訴怎麼審理你是什麼職稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17320.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17329.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
我是司法院刑事廳調辦司法官黃沙穎法官這個部分是我主責的那現在是刑事廳這樣說你受到法院來我就會審理了沒有問題現在問題是沒有辦法釐清責任怎麼起訴沒有起訴怎麼審理現在說這什麼消為你在這裡說什麼消為來你們當初制度怎麼設計的制度設計說我們要透過交叉結論來發現真實現在有什麼真實現在有什麼真實 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17352.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17373.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
現在的真實就是連病人要告醫生都告不成因為沒有辦法判定責任檢察官沒有辦法起訴這就是真正的現實真正的現實在這裡連告都沒有辦法告連起訴都沒有辦法起訴還在這裡高調的談說交叉結論是為了要發現真實 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17377.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17383.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
然後你們還說你們還說這個如果叫一審會出去鑑定報告叫我們用函詢的還曠日廢時還耗費大量的行政成本現在真正的事實是什麼對啊沒有辦法起訴啊無案可以審啊耗什麼耗都不用審啦耗時沒有耗時沒有案件怎麼會耗時你們司法院還在講講說呢要保障被告的防禦權 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17407.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17435.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
我們病患的權利誰要保障你們修法以後我們沒有辦法調查責任沒有辦法起訴你們的被告防禦權大到不會被告了啦因為連被告都沒有連起訴都沒辦法拿來的被告防禦在這裡就只會在那邊講空話你們放了一把火然後便宜形式的亂改掉不負責任的亂改 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17436.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17463.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
你可以改啊 我也支持你們 你們講的對啊我也認為不應該一一相互啊我們也認為應該要負責任啊可是現在 土法理想很豐滿 現實很骨感到現在一年半 每一個包括醫美死亡的案件醫美糾紛的案件 或是開刀手術的案件發生了醫療糾紛的每一個病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17464.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17487.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
到現在都沒有辦法告 不告醫院也沒辦法 告醫生也沒辦法因為你們修法導致沒有人願意進行醫療糾紛鑑定而醫審會現在在進行的即便是事辦計畫也只能參考沒有證據力到現在一個案子也沒辦出來 一年半了現在是在講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17491.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17518.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
那衛福部唯一病患有什麼病患有失去了主張權利的機會然後沒有辦法發現事實不可能問責於被告這個就是你們修法講得很好聽真正的事實就是這樣子本來是要解決一一相互保證病人現在修法以後都沒有了什麼都沒有了也沒有辦法告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17519.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17528.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
沒辦法告了 發現什麼真實沒有辦法調查釐清責任啦 沒辦法告 沒有被告啦這才是真正的真實 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17531.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17544.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
事實上衛福部的本位主義也是有問題的啦我現在講說司法院放了一把火就不管了然後呢國家都不想解決這個問題擺爛在那裡只好我扛起這個責任萬箭穿心法界公會還要發文來罵本人 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17554.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17563.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
真是厲害 我何苦呢我何苦呢 我幹嘛跳進來躺溫水大家都不愛插 行政院也不愛插 司法院也不愛插大家都 學生專家也插在那大家都在說被告的辯護權 防禦權呢你怎麼不看病患病患 那些死掉的病患的人的基本權利在哪裡連法律給他們的訴訟權都被剝奪掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17583.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17595.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
在這種狀況裡面我 我還要滿頭包被他們打得滿頭包莫名其妙好 我現在講這個問題不是只有司法院有問題而已衛福部也有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17597.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17625.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
監察院早在五年前就已經有調查報告指出衛福部和司法院通通都有問題而解決問題的方式絕對不是各自本位主義啊 我就修刑事訴訟法管你 我管你醫生接不接受你全部都給我簽名 都給我拒絕你醫生我管你 你全部都來給我作證啊他不要餒那我幹嘛 我又不欠你 又不是法定規定 硬線規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17627.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17637.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
監委調查衛生福利部醫事審議委員會設置辦法還有現行運作的公信力及運作程序透明等情疑案指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17639.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17657.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
司法院申請醫療鑑定平均單次 需要時間耗時8到10個月而且依舊的案件大概有三成 需要送兩次或做兩次以上的鑑定前後時間冗長 造成訴訟研制的重要因素這個是訴訟拖延最重要 因為醫審會程序太慢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17662.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17691.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
然後呢 醫省為了鑑定意見 細以多數決的方式形成結論而醫事鑑定小組的組成是不是具有充足醫療專家的資格也備受質疑而在醫療鑑定當中 醫省為了鑑定小組委員或是初見的醫生均為匿名歷年學界 法界 實務界也針對這個有所批評或疑慮衛福部實在有檢討的必要所以我們可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17691.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17703.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
一省會舊的制度運作下來真的是有很多問題所以司法院才會覺得說我們是不是怎麼改可是司法院你不能夠不顧到現實面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17706.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17717.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
問題是你衛福部也不能完全不思檢討嘛然後司法院怎麼樣應對目前有因司法機構未能明確指出相關疑似症點司法院法院本身也非常的瀆職 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17725.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17749.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
每次醫事糾紛醫療糾紛但是你糾紛的爭點在哪裡都沒有辦法講清楚然後導致於無法鑑定同一個案件送交數次鑑定的狀況再加上重複鑑定以後每次爭點都不一樣導致鑑定結果不一致導致民眾對鑑定結果的公信力產生疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17750.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17761.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
監察院說進行研議改善 叫你們進行研議改善司法院有問題 衛福部 議審會 運作也有問題因為很多啦 所以我再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17763.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17785.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
你們有改善了嗎 衛福部 司法院 你們有改善了嗎你們不改善 然後擅自修法然後就是把今天爛攤子 讓那些有醫療糾紛的人剝奪掉他們的權利 被迫還什麼發現真實 真實都不用了 直接被迫和解啦 和解啦 不然再拖到當時才會感動 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17788.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17810.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
所以我們都知道醫療行為具有高度的專業和個別的特殊性司法機關或檢查機關要釐清真相都是仰賴醫療專業的鑑定但是呢 醫療糾紛的鑑定案件逐年成長衛福部已增加這個醫事鑑定小組的委員及即時處理鑑定的案件但是呢 還是耗這麼長的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17812.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17831.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
所以監察院要你們要去檢討現行依舊鑑定作業要點的規範妥善的管理受理依舊案件鑑定的時程以及評估設立醫療鑑定團體分流醫療鑑定案件的可行性你們有辦法嗎 人家說你們在聽 五年前就跟你們說了 保證你們有做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17835.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17859.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
跟委員報告我們非常支持委員修訂這個100條之一讓他回復到我們之前能夠運作回復到之前運作的模式一省會仍然存在著問題但是我們一省會的作業方式也要精進沒有錯那麼包含分組我們本來就有分組了不過現在可能要更多組因為這個案子積在這裡了所以人力上我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17860.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17867.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
另外委員我們就訓這些鑑定也都要訓練才會有讓他鑑定的一致性還有你們醫省會有醫師有法學專家有社會人士學界在實務上有以因醫療專家僅佔少數的審議會所以你們醫省會的鑑定意見又以多數決的方式形成結論所以人家質疑你們醫師鑑定小組的決議是否具備充足的專業意見而提出質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17887.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17897.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
然後第三 這個好 所以你們你 這個都是監察院的調查報告喔報告喔所以你們也有必要回應社會的質疑啊 不是嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17898.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17922.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
所以我們在這個醫審的過程當中不是只有醫審委員他還有專家委員必要的時候還會邀請相關領域因為有的領域比較專他還要有那個領域的專家來參與我們排個時間 召委排一個專案就醫審會的運作好好的討論好 那司法單位人家監察院也講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17925.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17940.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
醫省會鑑定出來不附證據的調查或蒐集而且 但是司法單位呢都是 但關於委託鑑定的機關提供的相關鑑證資料進行鑑定就是你歡迎叫我做先生我就感動什麼啦就是這樣而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17941.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17953.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
他不用去理解太多法院叫我做什麼就做什麼嘛但是依舊因為事實的認定涉及醫療專業法官需要具備審判所需的專業知識才能夠確認認定事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17957.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17974.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
釐清爭點然後要看他要適用什麼法律但是目前司法機關未能明確指出相關爭點而有無法鑑定及同一案件送交數次鑑定的狀況而重複鑑定的爭點因每次有所不同導致鑑定結果不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17975.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17997.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
所以司法院在監察院調查的時候他就允議就法官在相關課程訓練上研議著重送醫療鑑定的問題研理及鑑定書的解讀那應鑑定有無過失屬於法院裁判權的核心不是鑑定醫生所能智慧所以你們法官經常再來問 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17999.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18013.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
所以人家建議你們說你們要避免詢問某醫療行為是否有違常規有無過失這種概括性的問題避免認識用法的審判權讓渡給醫審會的鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18016.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18044.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
所以這個是監察院認為法院你這自己發多尊業的訓練不夠你常常說這樣還不行這樣還不行我依審鑑定 只能說你叫我釐清什麼跟你說可不可以有無過失我依審會的公文怎麼回答你們沒有辦法然後在這種狀況裡面法院在依究案件上法官的審理裁判的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18046.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18062.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
要訓練啊 要訓練 要精進啊都沒有做 沒做衛福部的醫生會沒蓋然後司法院的法官沒精進 沒訓練然後呢 直接修法 平以行事那就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18063.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18085.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
然後在另外在第4點在醫療鑑定當中醫省會的小組成員或是初見的醫師人家指出都以匿名的方式處理歷年來學界法界實務界多所批評和疑慮因為大家都知道要利益迴避可是你匿名我們怎麼知道你有沒有利益迴避在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18087.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18094.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
鑑定作業要點中迴避規定沒有辦法透明所以就沒有辦法具體的落實接受檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18097.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18112.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
在這種衍生很多不良的後果包括關說 請託 騷擾 報復大家都知道這種東西所以你們都主張要匿名但人家也有建議你們增列可能提供初見醫師名冊供兩照俱確醫審會初見醫師增列 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18117.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18139.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
醫學中心以外的醫師或以系統性隨機選取你要保護這個醫師 鑑定醫師可是你又要防止利益到底有沒有迴避所以人家認為說很多做法但是你也是沒差處 也不該 都不該我最後再講 最後抱歉主席我最後講一個醫改會的意見我也諮詢過 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18142.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18157.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
一改會認為說你們要明確完整的鑑定提問制度不要法官一次問三四十個都沒有專業 還要亂問是鑑定流程混亂潛耗時消耗行政程序案成本的其實是法官不專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18158.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18180.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
或者是他根本搞不清楚流程而衛福部不是沒有問題提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業認知以外我們也知道醫法要交流醫界法界要常交流法界過度依賴醫審會和鑑定報告但是司法人員真的要交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18181.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18200.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那鑑定報告也常常被批評問A答B或引用可信度很低的文獻甚至缺乏完整的論證過程那你不用優化你們鑑定制度確保報告的公信力嗎難怪人家覺得你們都是內部內部而已都沒有外部 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18201.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18229.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
雖然我們的修法維持原狀原狀就是當你可以不接受醫審會的鑑定你可以在外面另外委託可是照這個修法我告訴你醫審會你也不接受的話也沒有醫生要幫你鑑如果要到法院交叉結論沒有醫生願意站上去但是呢在這種狀況裡面醫改會其實有講了建議考慮每個案件至少有兩位醫師出鑑避免單一醫師決定鑑定結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18230.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18256.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
而且應該適度的提高醫師參與鑑定的經費預算確保醫療鑑定制度能永續運行所以你們的錢預算很久都沒有改了你們投入的資源量能通通都不足那我也講過美國怎麼運行看起來人家美國可以可是人家美國的鑑定是異地鑑定美國可以東岸的專家審西岸的案件台灣這麼小怎麼審 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18258.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18267.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
有一些手術其實很特殊就那幾個醫生在座馬上就被抓包馬上就被這個抓出來集體公審了所以在這種狀況裡面啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18270.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18287.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
法院還在叫外國司法院刑事廳還要叫律師出來賣大家報告說他沒意見啦為了解決問題他同意我們修法然後再去叫律師公會出來賣立委衛福部在這裡說好我樂觀啟程你當然不負責任看立委扛起這個責任讓立委去擋子彈你們樂觀啟程啦你怎麼不說你們兩院 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18296.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18307.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
拖了一年半幾百個這個糾紛的家屬求助無門不能夠釐清責任就沒有辦法起訴根本就輪不到審理還發現什麼真實騙人笑欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18314.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18333.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
不曉得要聽進去啦 人家說醫審會也要改進整個事件的源頭就是人家都覺得老是依舊的訴訟 人民老是輸啦因為醫病真的專業不對等 權威也不對等到醫院就任人宰割嗎 也不行啊好 謝謝委員跟醫審會的那個運作我們來檢討好 謝謝 好 請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18340.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18363.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
接下來請徐滬委員 徐滬委員不在 請洪孟楷委員來來請 不好意思好 主席謝謝 麻煩請我們衛福部石部長跟關務署的蔣主秘來請主秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18366.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18389.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
紅委員好部長我想就直接針對今天的議題因為蘇丹紅的這個事件那我想再釐清跟確認一下當然很多委員都已經講過但是因為大家都很關心就是說到底這一家公司這個所謂的這個易紅公司它是進口蘇丹紅的原料是不是不是 不是它是進口一種色素對 色素裡面摻蘇丹紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18392.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18416.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
是不是所以他在報關的時候他也沒有報蘇丹紅沒有報蘇丹紅所以說我們的關稅署也不知道也沒有辦法就有這個記錄嘛對不對好那但是如果說他進口這個色素那色素裡面有蘇丹紅那我們現在有看到的這個狀況是說我們這一個公司他在過去從今年至少是今年有幾批 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18418.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18445.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
我們這一次查的主要是這三批裡面有參蘇丹紅對但這三批裡面我想確認因為第一批是在今年1月那他第一批今年1月都還有留下他的原物料是可以讓我們做查驗因為他會留第一個是他自己的原料另外他會留下他下游廠商所以說你也把下游的廠商做出來的這一些化妝品也好或說相關的產品也好來去抽驗所以說才驗出來對才還會有20個品項是 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18447.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18463.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
所以那這樣子部長我看了因為我剛剛看了一下我們的這個衛福部跟財政部的一個報告之後發覺這就是一個漏洞啊就變成是說我們如果說這樣子的一個情況他報沒有報這個可是他裡面參查有這個那這樣子防不勝防啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18464.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18483.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
未來可以怎麼樣更加強這個就是不誠實的廠商根本就不是在報蘇丹紅他是報植物性的著色劑所以他提供的他的檢驗的數據跟報告書也是假的所以我們才會積極的請高檢介入現在地檢你偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18484.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18503.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
把这样事实跟犯罪的行为能够确实具体的确定下来要重罚本席认为是说如果说有违法甚至说知情不报甚至是知法犯法的厂商恶意的厂商要重罚但本席要讲的是说针对这样的一个事件那就我们要更超前因为其实我觉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18504.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18527.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
民眾在這幾年從食品到現在化妝品對於蘇丹紅這個事件已經被困擾了很久那如果說依照這個個案的話我剛看了一下這報告後面是防不勝防啊我們除了是說有這個所謂的吹哨者以外我們很難知道是說他的這個原料因為連這個義宏公司他下游廠商他也都宣稱說他根本不知道裡面是參達蘇丹紅是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18528.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18545.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
這邊跟委員報告一下因為這個原因所以我們針對原料的部分如何去做跨部門的那先前幾位委員都提醒我們我們也會積極的辦理召委也特別有提到針對這個原料的管理的部分我們會再做進一步的跨部會的一些協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18546.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18566.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
那另外再講到就是化妝品的部分因為您剛有特別提到是說做成產品之後它還是可以抽驗也會找出這個不法的原料那所以我們現在是在講就是說因為之前是食品食品有所謂的這個抽查那在化妝品的部分那如果說未來我們針對譬如說唇部的產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18567.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18591.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
口紅這一種或說比較有可能的這種參雜的會不會要比較更以抽查或是更以檢驗跟委員報告就是確實因為在化妝品它的原料是比較多元它那個譬如說這一次這個是濁色劑濁色劑不見得是只做化妝品它會用在其他工業上也會用那只是我們不是不允許這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18592.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18612.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
含有蘇丹紅的放進這個化妝品裡面去所以這個我們會做法上我們目前的管理就是以製程的監控所以我們一直在推這個GMP讓這個化妝品的製程有優良作業規範 GMP然後後端有後市場的抽驗那過去我們抽驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18613.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18628.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
大概比較著重在重金屬反腐劑或者是像生菌素 細菌比較著重在這一個對 我現在講的就是抽菸就是主動抽菸的部分抽菸的部分我們有在做尤其是針對化妝品白白腫但是針對這種比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18631.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18657.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
譬如說人體攝錄 譬如說比較鮮豔的或是說人體攝錄比較有可能的像譬如說包括說唇膏對他就比較容易攝那這樣子一個產品是不是應該要有我們會加強去這一方面的因為以前沒有發生過啦現在知道了之後我們就會去抽驗這個部分好所以說這相關的辦法未來會什麼時候把它可以確定下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18658.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
18683.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
應該很快就這邊跟委員報告其實陸陸續續我們對於跟基層的地方衛生局連接其實近年來都有6000多次拼灌的有1000多次那我們現在網路架構也有1000多次我現在在問的是剛剛部長講的承諾是說未來針對這個部分我們立刻已經在規劃了所以我們後續的規劃會跟委員這邊做進一步的報告好所以規劃什麼時候會出來這是本市剛問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
18684.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
18708.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
對我們會用最快速度我們這一兩個禮拜應該就可以就積極的來去能夠去查查好兩個禮拜本席跟我們社會大眾看那還有剛剛部長你有提到一個就是主要是這個化妝品的這個登錄制你也希望是說他們有主動的來登錄來去做這個製程的相關嘛那我只是想請教啊因為現在是採取登錄制啊那目前採訪譬如說有一些這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
18710.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
18727.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
違規的一個事項到目前為止我們裁罰案件有多少如果是我們例行性後市場驗的我們有裁罰大概幾個不算但我現在講的是說你剛剛講的是後市場是檢驗出來嘛那我們現在是要求邀請這一些廠商他來去做登記嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
18727.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
18745.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
那登記之後我們也認為說他既然敢登記他應該就比較不會違反嘛那現在登記然後我們有譬如說有裁罰或說有抓出來有多少我們從去年統計到現在去年7月到現在大概抓到沒有登錄的大概30幾件32件32件這樣比例算高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
18751.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
18778.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
因為我們的產品很多很多 確實有22萬種所以跟委員特別報告我們剛才先前已經有答應兩個禮拜內讓所有的產品來登錄給你時間登錄如果這個時間內都沒有完成登錄我們絕對是查查所以也歡迎所有的民眾兩個禮拜內如果沒有登錄的會優先去查查對 是不是是的就用這樣的方式來鼓勵大家你願意大家一起來配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
18778.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
18807.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那我們最重要的是大家願意配合就代表說你應該是一個合法的廠商你也要用的是合法跟合規的原料以及製程嘛 是不是委員這邊提到的這樣的登錄制度現在其實在國際的化妝品組織ICCR裡面不管是美日 佳 台我們通通都是用同樣的規格在管所以這樣的管理如果在中間在原料部分我們覺得我們應該要更提升在後市場部分的登錄部分我們會更加強的 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
18808.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
18834.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
因為其實我覺得這一次的重點就只有一個就是說以往我沒有想到會有這樣的一個做法它進口不是它是進口的植物著色劑但是裡面參有蘇丹紅違法的一個物品而導致於說它去使用那它到底是不是有它是有意的這樣進口然後來去讓這些下游廠商都來使用那這是算是一個新型態的一個做法那我們當然是要做超前部署跟防堵好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
18835.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
18855.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
我們大概這個廠商應該是惡意的因為我們驗出他的濃度很高我完全不認為說他是善意啦所以說我也認為是說該重罰就重罰好不好重罰廠商讓這些廠商知道是說我們的態度跟標準來嚇阻下一次有可能的任何犯行好嗎 我們完全按照這個原則來辦理謝謝韓偉 謝謝部長好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
18861.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
18865.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
接下來請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在請徐欣穎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
18876.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
18901.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
謝謝主席 本席有請這個石部長衛福部石部長還有警政署的刑事局代科長代科長對好 徐委員好好 那個警政署的在那邊代表署長的看是誰是行政署嗎 還是是刑事局代表署長的 來來來是行政署的廖署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
18911.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
18935.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
部長好 這個我們本席今天首先要先就這個防止醫療暴力的這個部分因為您本身也是醫師嘛所以你應該了解醫療暴力 醫療糾紛這個在近幾年來好像越來越多 對不對也造成醫師很多的困擾所以我們看到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
18938.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
18962.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
警政署的报告就是讲说处理医疗暴力案件原则是10分钟之内到达现场部长您觉得OK吗这个暴力的发生有时候来的是非常突然10分钟可能都常常几十秒内就可能产生不可挽回的一些结果所以这个情况怎么办 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
18964.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
18993.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
所以我们还是从几个方向去着手过去我们也发布了一些重要的指引包含说你这个门禁的管制要做好因为我时间不够那本席在这里也要特别跟警政署还有部长您这里这个如果在偏乡或警力不足的这个救护人员他也没有办法自求多福那有没有一些紧急通报系统能够更直接的连线 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
18994.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19005.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
有沒有辦法建立這個其實我們過去有一個叫做警民連線就直接通道不過後來因為這個跟警政單位討論過之後他們認為還是用這個報案專線會更快報案專線更快 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19011.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19032.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
那如果这样的话我又看到报告里面有精进防卫能力第二点提到说警政署他们把区域级以上的医院列为治安热点增加巡逻但我们也想讲的是很多人力单薄的地区医院或是基层诊所 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19033.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19060.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
那這些地方不像大醫院有完善的保全隊伍對不對然後而且大概就一兩個護理師在櫃台那這個只保大醫院小診所的安全誰來顧這個我不知道警政署還有部長你們的看法因為這個部長你認同嗎當然是說我們也是要尋求一個這個平衡資源的運用到底怎麼運用好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19061.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19077.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
那當然以這個特別是以它的發生地點來講你有沒有覺得要安排巡邏的密度要再更密就是我們從過去的分析是發生的場域啦大概是急診的機會高啦所以先從有急診室的這邊優先這個是從這個觀點來看的啦那我請教警政署這個巡邏的密度這一塊有沒有辦法加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19089.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19109.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
在這方面的話那我們是主要是針對區域型的醫院的那個急診室我現在強調的就是說那像這一些比較人力單薄的基層診所怎麼辦你們有辦法派出所啊各方面也可以加強一下那我們要看說之前是不是有發生過或者說他有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19110.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19124.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
譬如有糾紛或怎麼樣的話那我們會這邊會加強來聯繫這一塊我們希望不要把基層診所遺漏然後第三點本席要請教部長跟我們警政署的署長的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19125.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19144.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
就说好像现在有在规划要教医护人员肢体防卫技巧还有敌情意识但是我们觉得医生跟护理师是去救人的那部长您本身是医生您觉得这个学这些有办法或是有帮助吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19144.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19173.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
还是有啦就是说察觉这个可能有危险的这个病患或者是家属还是要有这种真的吗医生随便学就学会了吗对因为在我们的医学上有些这个病人的反应也是我们要去注意的另外一个就是说那个环境在有状况的时候如何能够安全那个环境的设计也很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19174.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
19188.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
对 那我们比较想强调的是一种嚇阻力也就是还有包含警方到场后的执法强度应该展现出来甚至警方对施暴者立即的强制力 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
19189.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
19209.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
而不是靠醫生學防身術我們會覺得這個真的是太緩不濟急那警政署的您先請回好了部長最後本席再跟你談一個問題可能今天時間不夠我們要談很深入但下次您再來的時候我會再過來就是針對我們這個長照長照的預算從2016年的50億 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
19218.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
19235.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
一直到2025年今年926亿大幅的增加所以这个钱一直的花本席要跟你提一个长照我们非常重视也觉得有其必要但是面对高龄化社会来临我们是不是应该有 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
19236.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
19256.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
长照再升级的常见也就是说怎么样帮助国人预防甚于治疗然后每一个人都会老您会老我也会老我们怎么样透过预防医学有一些做法我现在只简单的问我们卫福部在这一块有没有着手 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
19256.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19277.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
在我們這個明年開始會啟動的長照3.0的計畫會著重前面的這個衰弱啦衰弱的預防啦這個這個這個肌力的強化等等就是讓他能夠健康老化啦盡量不要走入到那個重度失能重度失能那個就要照顧了 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19277.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19301.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
提早预防的保健预防老人跌倒甚至有一些预防疾病的各种的运动我们可以来推广尤其本席很快的在这里我之后会再找时间跟你深入那这个我们现在全国的关怀据点有很多给一些老人家的上课甚至有些只是退休没有很老的我们可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19301.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19327.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
来开始实施一些安全的然后来做然后同时也可以有一些数据你一年两年你看这样实施下来五年可能你会发现某一种运动或某一种方式是你开始有数据你就会知道怎么样对这种预防甚于治疗的这一块我们希望卫福部可以来深入甚至我们接近世界各国 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
19328.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
19350.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
我下次一定會跟您談世界各國 日本 美國各國他們都有 他們都已經甚至他們用很多我們東方很棒的一些預防疾病甚至預防衰老的一些方法所以我們希望我們衛福部來在這方面加強好 我們非常樂意這個事情是我們跟方向一致的好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝學員 謝謝部長 謝謝那接下來請葉原職委員來做宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
19366.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
19388.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
主席好 麻煩請衛福部部長葉委員好部長好 我想來關心一下食安因為我們現在已經準備要開放日本福島的核食了嘛對不對 福島 福食已經開放了已經開放了嘛就是回到常規管理你宣布回到常規管理的時間點剛好是賴總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
19390.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
19416.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
吃日本食物挺日本的隔天他吃了兩個日本食物一個是鹿兒島的鮮魚還有一個是北海道的帆立貝結果隔天衛福部禮拜五的傍晚就宣布要我們就用開放來講就開放了這個日本的福島無限那衛福部說完全沒有政治考量我覺得這樣講可能也沒什麼人會相信第一個這個時間點怎麼那麼巧合第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
19417.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
19437.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
你們選擇宣布的時間是在星期五的傍晚這個內行人都知道為什麼會選這個時間因為宣布完之後馬上就假日啊假日大家就可能就不會很熱烈去討論這個話題啊所以就特別選在禮拜五傍晚如果不是好像要讓輿論沒有熱烈討論的話為什麼會選這個時間點那我現在跟你先講啊就是說怎麼那麼巧你說你們是檢驗了二十幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
19444.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
19464.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
然後那為什麼是這個時間點然後跟賴總統吃日本食物要挺日本的時間點又這麼巧合然後又跟正日沒有關係那到底是這個時間怎麼定出來的各位很棒 真的也是很巧啦因為我們這個案子回歸到常態的管理是在8月底 8月28 29號做預告所以那個預告是60天啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
19469.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
19494.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
那我們這60天裡面去收集所以他真正截止的時間是10月底10月28號就已經預告的期限終止了我們就在整理這個意見整理了一個月那這意見他們就整理了一個月剛好整理到賴總統吃平日本食物事實上我到我桌上剛好真的就是那一天就禮拜五你說剛好真的就是禮拜五 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
19495.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
19515.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
已經到了我辦公室然後我核定之後所以才會拖到班完所以你們完全沒有配合賴總統請日本沒有沒有就是按照我們的因為我們早就預告了那之前為什麼會考慮要開放呢像中國大陸跟南韓都沒有開放啊那為什麼台灣忽然間要開放呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
19516.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
19539.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
但我們就是三個原則第一個原則就是說國際的標準但是衛福部的業務應該是以食安為主那怎麼會忽然間像南韓也沒開放的情況之下我們忽然間開放是誰跟你講說要開放沒有忽然間開放我們從八月底就先預告了八月底就預告了那你八月底為什麼那時候要考慮要開放因為已經經過了十幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
19541.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
19566.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
那我們已經三階段我們是一階一階一直到最後回歸到常規因為從過去的檢驗二十幾萬件都沒有驗出然後再加上世界的標準我們也符合了那梅安靜部長我來跟你討論一下因為你剛剛講到說二十幾萬沒有驗出嘛所以我卓院長是這樣講的他這個講裡面有個貓膩啦他是說二十幾驗抽驗沒有不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
19567.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
19595.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
沒有不合格跟沒有驗出這兩回事喔因為我們一般是有一個容許量我先請教一下這20幾萬件裡面有沒有驗出微量的件有沒有那個都是背景值除了背景值之外有沒有驗出微量的嗎有沒有嗎完全沒有沒有違規的不是啦違規是沒有超標嘛就像萊豬一樣嘛有一個萊克多巴胺的PPM嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
19597.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
19611.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
委員 容我做一點點補充我們整體的考量其實是在311 2011年以來到這邊是第14年中間其實持續的抽驗跟追蹤裡面總共有22萬件 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
19613.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
19632.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
那我們這22萬件裡面其實都沒有違規剛才講的有沒有檢出的確是有檢出有檢出那有檢出它的意義是什麼會定這個標準是在管制上面維護全民的健康的前提之下全世界的標準定出了一個標準對於嬰幼兒更嚴格對一般的食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
19633.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
19655.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
有一個標準所以在這個標準以下我們才能夠運行來照顧全民的否則只要我驗出所有都是丟棄或退運或等等的這個世界運行這個規則就會沒有過程大概是這樣子我也知道所以我講說你們沒有違規是沒有超標但是不見得是沒有驗出嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
19657.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
19684.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
但是針對這件事情醫界也不同看法我有看到有醫生就講他是說驗出微量並不代表百分之百的安全這也就是為什麼南韓到目前為止都沒有開放的原因所以我們今天以這個甘願冒也許是千萬分之一或者是機率很低的風險要去開放這個東西難道沒有一點點政治考量嗎時間點又這麼的這麼的接近跟賴總統挺日又這麼的接近 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
19685.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
19709.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
跟委員這邊做報告因為我們對於它的風險的時候其實會到科學用計算的如果它的風險是小於4的-6之外百萬分之一的確是全世界共同的尤其是IAEA世界的原子能組織裡面以及大家的共識但是每一個人會有特定的一些想法或一些擔心我們都非常尊重但是在管理上面我們是對於全世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
19710.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
19736.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
評估出來是10的-6次方的所謂癌症或者基因的變異的風險以下的確是在這樣的考量我們做出來的決定跟國人一起來去對於這個更嚴格的監管反正現在就已經做出這樣的決定了嘛已經在運作了主席再一分鐘因為我沒有太多時間我就先把議題拋出來下次再來關心啦因為我看到衛福部說要成立兒童及家庭署嘛說要整合針對我們國家未來主人翁 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
19737.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
19762.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
在醫療 社福然後甚至可能結合教育保護有一個機關那我反映一個現在教育現場遇到的狀況因為現在有一部分可能有情障或什麼的學生可能在班級上面也許會比較容易跟人家衝突那這一塊我特別有去問一些學校說在心理諮商師或者是輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
19763.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
19780.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
不夠那不夠那你跟預算可能有關也跟衛福部到底你有沒有重視這個心理諮商師有關然後所以他們要去預約心理諮商師常常預約不到那如果你今天你要要成立這個兒童級家庭屬我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
19781.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
19798.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
部長可以多關心教育這一塊當然你的重點應該是在兒童的醫療照顧對 健康部分對 但是這個跟我覺得既然要成立這樣的組跟健康也是相關心理健康的部分我們也會關注所以對於教育這一塊有的時候常常講到這個都會講到經費教育部什麼經費什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
19799.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
19819.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
那如果你今天要成立這個署你預算應該會增加嘛希望你可以把這個東西納入到你的你關心的業務範圍之一啦來解決一些教育現場的問題啦下次再來跟您請教好如果涉及到需要跟教育部來合作的我們也會跟他來聯繫這樣就是希望有一個專責單位來做平台跟單一窗口這樣好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
19826.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
19849.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
那接下來請謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員不在請林儲英委員林儲英委員林儲英委員不在請羅明采委員羅明采委員羅明采委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在請何清淳委員何清淳委員何清淳委員不在好那本的會議宣導全部結束委員徐富奎 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
19850.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
19876.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在作為下決定及決議第一報告說明及詢答完畢第二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以順便答覆委內要求期限者從期所定第三醫療法第24條第100條之一及106條條文修正草案即時施案令則其繼續審查那本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
19884.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
19886.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
谢谢大家 |