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王育敏 @ 立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「勞退新舊制相關修法」公聽會）
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:03,000 | 主席要安排今天的公聽會 |
| 00:00:03,000 | 00:00:06,300 | 那我也要感謝今天所有公會的代表 |
| 00:00:06,300 | 00:00:09,300 | 還有專家學者今天的出席 |
| 00:00:09,300 | 00:00:12,600 | 我想剛剛前面有很多先進提到 |
| 00:00:12,600 | 00:00:14,700 | 台灣的經濟果實 |
| 00:00:14,700 | 00:00:17,400 | 事實上是各行各業的勞工 |
| 00:00:17,400 | 00:00:19,300 | 真的站在第一線 |
| 00:00:19,300 | 00:00:23,000 | 每一天很辛勞的工作打拼出來的 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:25,400 | 所以第一個我們真的要感謝 |
| 00:00:25,400 | 00:00:26,800 | 全國的勞工朋友 |
| 00:00:26,800 | 00:00:28,600 | 每一天都戰戰兢兢的 |
| 00:00:28,600 | 00:00:30,400 | 在工作崗位上面 |
| 00:00:30,400 | 00:00:34,300 | 付出他們的工作的心血 |
| 00:00:34,300 | 00:00:36,400 | 然後幫台灣創造 |
| 00:00:36,400 | 00:00:39,400 | 目前這麼高的一個經濟的果實 |
| 00:00:39,400 | 00:00:43,200 | 那台灣擁有這龐大的經濟果實之後 |
| 00:00:43,200 | 00:00:46,000 | 很重要的是我們要重分配 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:47,900 | 我們要有效的回饋 |
| 00:00:47,900 | 00:00:50,200 | 讓這些我們勞工朋友 |
| 00:00:50,200 | 00:00:52,000 | 這個他們的生活 |
| 00:00:52,000 | 00:00:55,200 | 可以獲得我們國家制度性的保障 |
| 00:00:55,200 | 00:00:56,400 | 所以今天 |
| 00:00:56,500 | 00:00:59,100 | 我主要有很多的公會的代表 |
| 00:00:59,100 | 00:01:00,300 | 都有從各自的立場 |
| 00:01:00,300 | 00:01:02,400 | 提出一些未來修法的建言 |
| 00:01:02,400 | 00:01:03,800 | 我想這個立法院 |
| 00:01:03,800 | 00:01:05,099 | 我們應該都要尊重 |
| 00:01:05,099 | 00:01:06,500 | 而且都要聽見 |
| 00:01:06,500 | 00:01:08,200 | 之後再跟勞動部 |
| 00:01:08,200 | 00:01:10,800 | 一起來研商怎麼樣是一個 |
| 00:01:10,800 | 00:01:13,800 | 可行的然後前進的辦法 |
| 00:01:13,800 | 00:01:15,300 | 那我針對今天的主題 |
| 00:01:15,300 | 00:01:17,200 | 我有幾點要表達意見 |
| 00:01:17,200 | 00:01:19,500 | 第一個就是我們一定要確保 |
| 00:01:19,500 | 00:01:21,100 | 我們所有的勞工朋友 |
| 00:01:21,100 | 00:01:22,800 | 現在所繳的這些費用 |
| 00:01:22,800 | 00:01:24,600 | 未來他是領得到的 |
| 00:01:24,699 | 00:01:27,399 | 所以有關於勞工保險基金 |
| 00:01:27,399 | 00:01:29,699 | 會不會破產怎麼樣確保 |
| 00:01:29,699 | 00:01:32,000 | 我們的基金是永續的運作 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:34,899 | 我覺得這個是政府責無旁貸的責任 |
| 00:01:34,899 | 00:01:36,300 | 那在立法院裡面 |
| 00:01:36,300 | 00:01:38,800 | 我們在今年一月已經通過了 |
| 00:01:38,800 | 00:01:42,800 | 這個政府負最終之負責任 |
| 00:01:42,800 | 00:01:44,800 | 這個事實上已經入法 |
| 00:01:44,800 | 00:01:47,000 | 但是我覺得入法還不夠 |
| 00:01:47,000 | 00:01:48,699 | 事實上勞動部 |
| 00:01:48,699 | 00:01:51,500 | 應該要很務實的看待這個基金 |
| 00:01:51,500 | 00:01:53,699 | 他的收支不平衡的狀況 |
| 00:01:53,700 | 00:01:55,800 | 還有潛藏負債的狀況 |
| 00:01:55,800 | 00:01:58,500 | 那現在當然勞動部告訴大家說 |
| 00:01:58,500 | 00:02:01,000 | 我們到目前為止 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:03,200 | 這八年來總共提撥了 |
| 00:02:03,200 | 00:02:05,700 | 五千一百七十億 |
| 00:02:05,700 | 00:02:08,100 | 但是這個夠嗎 |
| 00:02:08,100 | 00:02:09,500 | 事實上是不夠的 |
| 00:02:09,500 | 00:02:12,400 | 剛剛其實有學者也特別提到了 |
| 00:02:12,400 | 00:02:13,900 | 這個收支差額 |
| 00:02:13,900 | 00:02:16,000 | 來到了2034年 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:18,400 | 其實一年高達五千億 |
| 00:02:18,400 | 00:02:20,200 | 所以以現行的 |
| 00:02:20,299 | 00:02:24,500 | 其實你去年提撥了一千三百億 |
| 00:02:24,500 | 00:02:26,299 | 在面對未來的情況 |
| 00:02:26,299 | 00:02:28,500 | 事實上它還是不夠的 |
| 00:02:28,500 | 00:02:30,700 | 所以我們也不能鴕鳥 |
| 00:02:30,700 | 00:02:34,200 | 這個雖然講了政府負最終責任 |
| 00:02:34,200 | 00:02:36,000 | 但是這當中怎麼去提高 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:37,899 | 你整個基金的收益 |
| 00:02:37,899 | 00:02:40,200 | 提高政府撥補的金額 |
| 00:02:40,200 | 00:02:41,700 | 這個是一定要去做的 |
| 00:02:41,700 | 00:02:43,899 | 我覺得這兩個方向一定要去做 |
| 00:02:43,899 | 00:02:45,700 | 那現在政府在報告裡面 |
| 00:02:45,700 | 00:02:46,600 | 告訴我們說 |
| 00:02:46,600 | 00:02:47,799 | 這個財政部說 |
| 00:02:47,800 | 00:02:50,500 | 這個不可以明定金額 |
| 00:02:50,500 | 00:02:54,000 | 也不可以明定每年要固定提撥多少 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 主機處也說不可以 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:57,600 | 但是這個部分 |
| 00:02:57,600 | 00:02:59,100 | 我覺得未來你如果沒有一個 |
| 00:02:59,100 | 00:03:00,600 | 最低的樓地板 |
| 00:03:00,600 | 00:03:01,500 | 就是承諾的 |
| 00:03:01,500 | 00:03:03,600 | 我們不能只是部長一句話 |
| 00:03:03,600 | 00:03:05,700 | 部長說他會努力 |
| 00:03:05,700 | 00:03:08,600 | 這個民營一定不低於一千三百億 |
| 00:03:08,600 | 00:03:10,500 | 我們政務官是來來去去 |
| 00:03:10,500 | 00:03:12,800 | 我們不能靠政府的一句話 |
| 00:03:12,800 | 00:03:15,300 | 所以未來也請勞動部去研議 |
| 00:03:15,300 | 00:03:18,000 | 怎麼樣是最低的撥補金額 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:20,300 | 我覺得應該是要民文化的 |
| 00:03:20,300 | 00:03:22,000 | 這個也是給我們全國勞工 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:23,100 | 必要的保障 |
| 00:03:23,100 | 00:03:25,300 | 那另外在投資收益的部分 |
| 00:03:25,300 | 00:03:28,600 | 我想這個勞動部也會事實告訴大家說 |
| 00:03:28,600 | 00:03:30,600 | 哎呀我們這個收益有多好 |
| 00:03:30,600 | 00:03:33,400 | 我希望這整個投資的效益 |
| 00:03:33,400 | 00:03:35,800 | 可以讓它更穩定化 |
| 00:03:35,800 | 00:03:37,800 | 那如果這個投資報酬率 |
| 00:03:37,800 | 00:03:41,000 | 投報率是好的是高的是穩定的 |
| 00:03:41,000 | 00:03:43,800 | 我相信對於我們的勞保基金來講 |
| 00:03:43,900 | 00:03:46,500 | 這個會有一些穩定的注意 |
| 00:03:46,500 | 00:03:48,800 | 所以第一個我要提醒的就是 |
| 00:03:48,800 | 00:03:51,600 | 我們雖然這個最終支付責任 |
| 00:03:51,600 | 00:03:53,700 | 政府最終支付責任入法 |
| 00:03:53,700 | 00:03:57,500 | 但是勞保基金你怎麼樣持續的開源 |
| 00:03:57,500 | 00:03:59,600 | 然後政府撥補的金額 |
| 00:03:59,600 | 00:04:02,300 | 怎麼樣訂出一個最低的撥補金額 |
| 00:04:02,300 | 00:04:05,300 | 然後讓它這個情況可以改善 |
| 00:04:05,300 | 00:04:07,700 | 整個基金的財務狀況可以改善 |
| 00:04:07,700 | 00:04:10,900 | 這個破產的議題 |
| 00:04:10,900 | 00:04:13,500 | 在短期之內不會再被提及 |
| 00:04:13,500 | 00:04:15,600 | 然後可以有效的永續 |
| 00:04:15,600 | 00:04:18,200 | 我覺得這個是要去面對的議題 |
| 00:04:18,200 | 00:04:22,200 | 第二個就是涉及到勞工的權益的問題 |
| 00:04:22,200 | 00:04:25,800 | 那今天有非常多位的勞工團體的代表 |
| 00:04:25,800 | 00:04:27,600 | 其實也都提到 |
| 00:04:27,600 | 00:04:29,700 | 特別是剛剛我們聽到這個 |
| 00:04:29,700 | 00:04:33,100 | 我們公會的理事長 |
| 00:04:33,100 | 00:04:36,600 | 這個也提到了我們勞保的最高級距 |
| 00:04:36,600 | 00:04:39,400 | 十年動漲的這樣的一個情況 |
| 00:04:39,400 | 00:04:42,800 | 那這個圖表讓大家看其實非常的清楚 |
| 00:04:42,900 | 00:04:46,400 | 我們勞保最高級距45800 |
| 00:04:46,400 | 00:04:49,100 | 這十年來是從未調整 |
| 00:04:49,100 | 00:04:51,600 | 但是我們的樓地板是有在調的 |
| 00:04:51,600 | 00:04:52,800 | 我們最低工資 |
| 00:04:52,800 | 00:04:56,000 | 我們從2008元一直調整 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:58,800 | 到現在是29500 |
| 00:04:58,800 | 00:05:01,600 | 那這個可能勞動部 |
| 00:05:01,600 | 00:05:03,300 | 待會可能要給大家一個說法 |
| 00:05:03,300 | 00:05:06,300 | 這個事實上我有之前在委員會質詢過 |
| 00:05:06,300 | 00:05:08,400 | 就是只調樓地板 |
| 00:05:08,400 | 00:05:10,600 | 完全不調天花板 |
| 00:05:10,700 | 00:05:13,400 | 那像剛剛這個理事長所提到的 |
| 00:05:13,400 | 00:05:15,200 | 華儲公會理事長所提到的 |
| 00:05:15,200 | 00:05:19,900 | 就是說這個對照現在勞工的薪資的狀況 |
| 00:05:19,900 | 00:05:23,400 | 顯然這一個天花板不再是天花板 |
| 00:05:23,400 | 00:05:25,700 | 會不會未來也快要變成樓地板 |
| 00:05:25,700 | 00:05:27,900 | 那這個是大家要去看見的問題 |
| 00:05:27,900 | 00:05:29,800 | 就是政府不能脫尿 |
| 00:05:29,800 | 00:05:32,600 | 那當然我知道這樣的一個調整 |
| 00:05:32,600 | 00:05:35,600 | 會涉及到資方的支出 |
| 00:05:35,600 | 00:05:38,300 | 還有將來這個勞保基金的支出 |
| 00:05:38,300 | 00:05:41,200 | 但是我們的改革就是改到合理 |
| 00:05:41,200 | 00:05:43,400 | 我們也沒有要你調到非常高 |
| 00:05:43,400 | 00:05:44,900 | 但是完全都不動 |
| 00:05:44,900 | 00:05:46,100 | 事實上這個也是不對 |
| 00:05:46,100 | 00:05:49,200 | 就完全不符合現在的情況 |
| 00:05:49,200 | 00:05:51,600 | 那所以不能只調樓地板 |
| 00:05:51,600 | 00:05:53,000 | 天花板都不動 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:54,900 | 因為最近勞動部也提到 |
| 00:05:54,900 | 00:05:56,400 | 救保基金的部分 |
| 00:05:56,400 | 00:05:59,200 | 有想要打開這個天花板的部分 |
| 00:05:59,200 | 00:06:02,900 | 但是勞保這邊其實是不敢去動的 |
| 00:06:02,900 | 00:06:05,800 | 但我認為勞動部應該找專家學者 |
| 00:06:05,800 | 00:06:08,000 | 大家好好的來研議 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:10,100 | 這個應該要怎麼去做 |
| 00:06:10,100 | 00:06:12,800 | 那另外就是今天有很多人提到的 |
| 00:06:12,800 | 00:06:15,600 | 勞退薪資 勞退提撥率 |
| 00:06:15,600 | 00:06:20,700 | 現在就是也是6%凍結21年這個問題 |
| 00:06:20,700 | 00:06:24,400 | 這個一樣就是關乎勞工的退休金 |
| 00:06:24,400 | 00:06:26,000 | 那這個部分都不打開 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:27,300 | 我個人覺得不合理 |
| 00:06:27,300 | 00:06:29,800 | 但是打開的級距應該到多少 |
| 00:06:29,800 | 00:06:31,000 | 是不是能一步到位 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:32,600 | 還是逐年調升 |
| 00:06:32,600 | 00:06:34,500 | 我覺得勞動部一定有辦法 |
| 00:06:34,500 | 00:06:36,000 | 找更多的專家學者 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:37,600 | 還有我們工會的代表 |
| 00:06:37,600 | 00:06:39,100 | 大家坐下來好好談 |
| 00:06:39,100 | 00:06:41,100 | 找到一個務實可行 |
| 00:06:41,100 | 00:06:43,200 | 然後可以持續前進的方法 |
| 00:06:43,200 | 00:06:45,700 | 我覺得這個應該是可以做的 |
| 00:06:45,700 | 00:06:47,100 | 那國民黨立院黨團 |
| 00:06:47,100 | 00:06:49,400 | 剛剛蘇裕長林佩祥也有提到 |
| 00:06:49,400 | 00:06:50,800 | 國民黨團我們是支持 |
| 00:06:50,800 | 00:06:51,600 | 應該要調整 |
| 00:06:51,600 | 00:06:54,200 | 要打開這一個上限的 |
| 00:06:54,200 | 00:06:55,800 | 不應該是完全凍結 |
| 00:06:55,800 | 00:06:57,300 | 那至於打開到哪裡 |
| 00:06:57,300 | 00:06:58,400 | 如何調 |
| 00:06:58,400 | 00:07:01,200 | 我覺得謝謝昭偉今天排的這個公聽會 |
| 00:07:01,200 | 00:07:02,400 | 那未來這個議題 |
| 00:07:02,500 | 00:07:04,500 | 我認為勞動部應該要再找 |
| 00:07:04,500 | 00:07:06,000 | 更多的專家學者 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:07,599 | 大家好好來演繹 |
| 00:07:07,599 | 00:07:10,000 | 因為台灣社會我們要進步嘛 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:11,599 | 那你不能把過去的規定 |
| 00:07:11,599 | 00:07:12,799 | 你現在可能會說 |
| 00:07:12,799 | 00:07:14,000 | 啊這個一調 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:16,500 | 就害怕未來這個勞保基金 |
| 00:07:16,500 | 00:07:19,099 | 會不會加劇他的支出 |
| 00:07:19,099 | 00:07:20,700 | 但是你兩邊都要調整 |
| 00:07:20,700 | 00:07:21,400 | 你基金那邊 |
| 00:07:21,400 | 00:07:23,299 | 你要想辦法再去開源 |
| 00:07:23,299 | 00:07:24,900 | 然後合理的調整 |
| 00:07:24,900 | 00:07:26,299 | 合理的級距調整 |
| 00:07:26,299 | 00:07:27,400 | 你也是必要的 |
| 00:07:27,400 | 00:07:29,099 | 所以我就不能說 |
| 00:07:29,099 | 00:07:30,900 | 這個以不變應萬變 |
| 00:07:30,900 | 00:07:33,500 | 應該是要該怎麼調整 |
| 00:07:33,500 | 00:07:36,200 | 那今天這個這麼多公會的代表 |
| 00:07:36,200 | 00:07:36,799 | 在這邊哦 |
| 00:07:36,799 | 00:07:39,099 | 這個也是他們非常強烈的訴求 |
| 00:07:39,099 | 00:07:40,799 | 那我覺得今天市長 |
| 00:07:40,799 | 00:07:42,000 | 也還有關 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:44,299 | 就是相關的官員都坐在現場 |
| 00:07:44,299 | 00:07:45,500 | 聽這麼多 |
| 00:07:45,500 | 00:07:46,599 | 我想聽完之後 |
| 00:07:46,599 | 00:07:48,000 | 就是要有行動 |
| 00:07:48,000 | 00:07:49,099 | 那我具體建議 |
| 00:07:49,099 | 00:07:50,799 | 還應該要再召開這個 |
| 00:07:50,799 | 00:07:52,000 | 專家學者會議 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:53,799 | 找大家來怎麼調整 |
| 00:07:53,799 | 00:07:55,500 | 我們再往前踏出一步 |
| 00:07:55,500 | 00:07:57,000 | 這樣子以上謝謝 |
| 00:07:57,000 | 00:07:59,200 | 好謝謝王雁民委員的諮詢 |
| 00:08:00,900 | 00:08:04,900 | 現在請林昭臻研究員 |