iVOD / 170693
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翁曉玲 @ 第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:02,000 | 來諮詢 |
| 00:00:06,000 | 00:00:09,000 | 好 謝謝主席 我想首先先請政部長 |
| 00:00:09,000 | 00:00:11,000 | 防部政部長 |
| 00:00:11,000 | 00:00:14,000 | 防部次長 政部長 政部長 |
| 00:00:14,000 | 00:00:16,000 | 對 防部政部長 |
| 00:00:18,000 | 00:00:20,000 | 部長好 我想這個 |
| 00:00:20,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 最近大家對於獨遊的世界 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:25,000 | 事實上大家很關心 |
| 00:00:25,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 到底我們現在防部我們的地檢所 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:31,000 | 申辦的情況如何 |
| 00:00:31,000 | 00:00:34,000 | 那在這裡我想要先回顧一下 |
| 00:00:34,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 過去我們也曾經發生過 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 豎起跟石油 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:43,000 | 是跟石油有關的案子 |
| 00:00:43,000 | 00:00:45,000 | 我們先看在2013年 |
| 00:00:45,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 當時曾經有發生了大統長機的混油案 |
| 00:00:49,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 那這大統長機混油案當時 |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:53,000 | 其實就是他的負責人高正立 |
| 00:00:53,000 | 00:00:57,000 | 他用便宜的棉花籽油還有葵花油 |
| 00:00:57,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 然後加了這個銅液氯素進行染色 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:02,000 | 然後混充式橄欖油 |
| 00:01:02,000 | 00:01:05,000 | 那麼在當時彰化地檢署 |
| 00:01:05,000 | 00:01:09,000 | 他2013年10月15號執行搜索 |
| 00:01:09,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 2013年的10月25號就已經偵結 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:16,000 | 偵查終結並且提起公訴 |
| 00:01:16,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 簡單來說就是從搜索到起訴 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:23,000 | 前前後後只有10天的時間 |
| 00:01:23,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 那當時彰化地檢署就是說 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 他是創下重大民生案件 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 極快速偵辦的紀錄 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:33,000 | 那我們再看看就是2014年的 |
| 00:01:33,000 | 00:01:35,000 | 鼎鑫劣質油案 |
| 00:01:35,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 那警方當時也是幾乎是全力的偵辦 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:41,000 | 大規模的搜索扣押傳喚 |
| 00:01:41,000 | 00:01:44,000 | 甚至還生押限制出境等等 |
| 00:01:44,000 | 00:01:47,000 | 那這個案件基本上也是相當迅速的 |
| 00:01:47,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 就偵結起訴大概前後也只有20天左右 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:56,000 | 那我們再反過來我們再來對比 |
| 00:01:56,000 | 00:01:59,000 | 我們來看看今天的中聯油紙案 |
| 00:01:59,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 人民看到的是另一種景象 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 台中地檢署是在7月2號就已經啟動了 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:07,000 | 查緝民生犯罪聯繫平台 |
| 00:02:07,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 建立中央與地方行政與檢警調聯的 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 與檢警調聯的聯繫機制 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 然後督導各地方檢察署 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:21,000 | 要查緝民生犯罪小組 |
| 00:02:21,000 | 00:02:24,000 | 但是到現在已經20多天了 |
| 00:02:24,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 請問起訴了嗎 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:29,000 | 這中間進行了幾次搜索 |
| 00:02:29,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 跟委員報告有兩次搜索 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 一次是7月9日有搜索 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 那有約談相關的人 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 那另外也生押那個余姓的總經理 |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 後來因為法院有2000萬交保 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 後來抗告也後來再次裁定羈押進見了 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:50,000 | 那昨天又再第二次的一個搜索 |
| 00:02:50,000 | 00:02:52,000 | 那搜索有約談了12人 |
| 00:02:52,000 | 00:02:55,000 | 那其中有三名是有做強制處分 |
| 00:02:55,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 一位就是一位陳姓的廠長 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 他有申請計劃 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:02,000 | 另外有兩位那個申請 |
| 00:03:02,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 有兩位被告是那個預知交保 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:09,000 | 那另外九位是請回 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 那是相關的一個證人 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:13,000 | 那我想這個我們是積極的一個偵辦 |
| 00:03:13,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 可是這個部長您剛說積極偵辦 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 可是我們對比2013年的大統游案 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:22,000 | 然後還有2014年的這個鼎鑫游案 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:24,000 | 每個案件的那個類型不一樣 |
| 00:03:24,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 因為這次有那個 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 在當時他們的涉及的複雜的程度 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 也不見得會比這次要來的單純 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 那麼事實上本席其實在乎的就是說 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 法務部到現在為止你們對於這個案子 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:39,000 | 有沒有成立了專案小組 |
| 00:03:39,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 這個有 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 有全面的去清查嗎 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 那不僅是針對剛剛講的個案這幾家公司 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:49,000 | 還包括全面清查他的供應鏈流向 |
| 00:03:49,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 以及追究相關責任嗎 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 跟委員報告 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:55,000 | 就是在第一時間的時候太立案的話 |
| 00:03:55,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 就成立專案小組 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 在7月2號就有成立專案 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 而且這個專家那個還有一些的機關 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 有納入這個小組裡面 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 這個高檢署有啟動 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 查緝民生犯罪的聯繫平台 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 這個除了辦案單位以外 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 還有食藥署還有行政院食安辦 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 都有進來 |
| 00:04:15,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 那另外地檢有成立一個執行的 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 一個犯罪的一個小組 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 那這位跟台中市衛生處 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 還有那個食品衛生處 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 另外還有食藥署的 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 現在想要請教就是說 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 除了這幾家公司之外 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:33,000 | 有沒有你們還去清查 |
| 00:04:33,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 原料來源的東西 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 這個我想這個會 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 這個案件的確是有 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 有向上溯源的一個必要 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:40,000 | 所以我想這個 |
| 00:04:40,000 | 00:04:43,000 | 如果說我們絕對是有希望了解 |
| 00:04:43,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 希望了解說檢察官的 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 一定是要向上溯源 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:49,000 | 他把這些所有的犯罪 |
| 00:04:49,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 來做徹底的一個清查 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 那我想這個請委員放心 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:55,000 | 這個我們會全力來查 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 因為現在到目前為止 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 我們沒有看到就是說 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 到底向上清查到什麼樣的範圍 |
| 00:05:00,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 什麼樣的程度 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 然後又去這個偵查了 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 或搜索了有哪一些 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:08,000 | 就是非這幾家公司之外的 |
| 00:05:08,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 其他的事業單位 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 這次我想檢察官會按照這個 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 這個證據收集的 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 來做一個向上的一個溯源 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 又就橫向的跟向上的溯源 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 我想檢察官一定有這樣的 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 一個辦案的一個企圖心 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:27,000 | 好 本席要再次強調就是說 |
| 00:05:27,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 因為我們都會去看看 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 過去怎麼做 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 那現在我們這個檢方 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 對比在十年前 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:38,000 | 十二年前當時的偵辦的速度 |
| 00:05:38,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 還有他的偵查的範圍來比 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 然後我們至少本席認為 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:46,000 | 這次中年有止案的辦案的強度 |
| 00:05:46,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 似乎是遠不如 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 前面剛剛講的兩個案子 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 那麼已經到現在為止 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 都已經拖了二十幾天 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 都還沒結束 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:55,000 | 這個辦案在偵查中來講 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:05:57,000 | 這個辦案我們就是 |
| 00:05:57,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 還要縝密的一個偵查 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 那跟委員報告 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 其實我們也注意到 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 要做財產的一個保全 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 因為這個有團體輸送的 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 一個問題 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 對 所以你們已經 |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 已經做了財產保全 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:09,000 | 這也是本席新上來想問的 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 那個財產保全這部分 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 我們有扣押了這些的 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 可以先 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 是 我跟委員 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 講一下對扣押的 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 對 那個在四月 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 在七月十四號就有向 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 台中電郵申請查過犯罪所的 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:27,000 | 那這個法院七月十四號有 |
| 00:06:27,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 就四家公司嘛 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:32,000 | 中年福茂 福壽跟泰山 |
| 00:06:32,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 有查扣了價值兩億 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 五千三百多萬的不動產 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:39,000 | 那在裡面這些不動產的價值 |
| 00:06:39,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 裡面有一億兩千六百多萬元 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:44,000 | 的範圍內來做一個扣押 |
| 00:06:44,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 那我想這 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:47,000 | 簡單來說只扣押了一億兩千多萬 |
| 00:06:47,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 這部分我們 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 還是兩億六千多萬 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 那個這部分我們是 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 依照那個食品衛生管理法 |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 四十九之一的 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:58,000 | 受請訂定的食品安全 |
| 00:06:58,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 衛生管理法 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:02,000 | 沒收沒入追徵追繳違法所的 |
| 00:07:02,000 | 00:07:05,000 | 估算及推估的計價辦法 |
| 00:07:05,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 參考衛福部認定的犯罪所的 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 跟追徵的範圍 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 來做一個扣押的 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 那我想我們 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 所以你們扣押目前的 |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 範圍是多少錢嘛 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 就是那個價值是兩億多 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 兩億多 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:19,000 | 總共是兩億多的價值 |
| 00:07:19,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 那裡面範圍是 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:23,000 | 一億兩千多的範圍 |
| 00:07:23,000 | 00:07:25,000 | 這法院的一個裁定 |
| 00:07:25,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 那我想這部分 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 如果說我有這個擴大的 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:29,000 | 我們會再做另外再申請 |
| 00:07:29,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 好那接下來我想請那個 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 衛福部的林次長 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 好是 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 那是次長好 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 因為剛剛部長已經講了 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 其實他們已經也去扣押了一些 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 這個犯罪所得 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:51,000 | 就是怕說未來 |
| 00:07:51,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 可能會有拖產這些問題 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:54,000 | 但是事實上 |
| 00:07:54,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 就是為了避免業者拖產 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 那麼不知道現在衛福部 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 有沒有對於就是這幾家公司 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:03,000 | 已經有申請要依法扣留 |
| 00:08:03,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 或者是向行政法院有申請 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 假扣押假處分 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:10,000 | 要先把這些公司的財產先扣住 |
| 00:08:10,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 免得到時候之後 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:15,000 | 我們消費者提起團體訴訟 |
| 00:08:15,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 請求民事損害賠償的時候 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 會求償無門 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:21,000 | 就是因為他都已經拖產了 |
| 00:08:21,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 不知道衛福部 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:23,000 | 有沒有做了這個動作 |
| 00:08:23,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 現在是我們跟 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:25,000 | 因為時間一發生 |
| 00:08:25,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 我們就跟這個司法這邊 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 機關這邊配合調查 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 那目前我們在法律上面 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:33,000 | 我們現在還是在處理 |
| 00:08:33,000 | 00:08:35,000 | 他們相關的郵便的問題 |
| 00:08:35,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 當然新的修法這邊 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:38,000 | 會在法院上面進入 |
| 00:08:38,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 就是有對於財產相關 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:41,000 | 做一些扣押的動作 |
| 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 在食安法這邊 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 是嗎 你們已經有申請嗎 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 沒有 現在在未來的修法 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 會加上這個部分 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 蛤 這不需要未來的修法吧 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 你們現在其實依照相關法律 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 你們就可以依照行政訴訟法 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 你們就可以提出了 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 這不需要相關修法 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 這個部分 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 對 在訴訟上面你們就可以提了 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:01,000 | 這個部分好 |
| 00:09:01,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 對 因為我們這邊 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 有時可見你們還沒有做呢 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 對 本來是要提醒你們 |
| 00:09:05,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 趕快去做啊 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 好 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 對 這經過這二十幾天 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 搞不好這幾家公司 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 都已經脫產了 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 到時候就算是堅定說 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 真的會對消費者的身體造成傷害 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 要去請求民視損害賠償 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 然後最後人家的錢都已經 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 都脫產 就是求償也求償不到了 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:26,000 | 這是蠻嚴重的問題 |
| 00:09:26,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 我們也希望說 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 之後這個責任 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:29,000 | 要回到業者這邊 |
| 00:09:29,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 所以委員這邊提醒 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 我們會來跟我們的相關法務單位 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 來做這個討論 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 是 因為這個問題 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 其實也涉及到這個 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 整個的司法 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:40,000 | 現在我們的相關法律規定的問題 |
| 00:09:40,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 其實今天司法院 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 它做的有關實案的報告 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 我覺得這份報告非常好 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:49,000 | 整理了很多很重要的一個資料 |
| 00:09:49,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 裡面有講到 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 因為過去實案事件 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 因為適用刑事優先原則 |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 所以曾經有引發 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 就算是高額的行政法 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 也會被撤銷 |
| 00:09:59,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 不能夠完全剝奪不法利得的爭議 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 所以這個是當時 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 就是在這司法院所提出的報告裡面 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 有講到的 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:09,000 | 也就是說 |
| 00:10:09,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 刑事優先 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 所以就算行政機關 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 你現在處罰了它1.6億 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:17,000 | 但是後來之後可能會依照刑事判決 |
| 00:10:17,000 | 00:10:19,000 | 然後來看它的犯罪所得等等 |
| 00:10:19,000 | 00:10:21,000 | 所以如果說它這邊犯罪所得 |
| 00:10:21,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 它只有1.21 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:23,000 | 它那1.6億這部分 |
| 00:10:23,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 它全部都撤銷掉 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:26,000 | 這是蠻嚴重的問題 |
| 00:10:26,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 那我們本席當然 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:28,000 | 當然第一個是希望 |
| 00:10:28,000 | 00:10:30,000 | 就衛福部要加速腳步 |
| 00:10:30,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 趕快先去扣留 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 這些相關公司的財產 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 那麼第二個 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:36,000 | 我也希望我們檢發能夠 |
| 00:10:36,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 儘速起訴好不好 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 儘速起訴 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 然後讓這個案子可以 |
| 00:10:39,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 這個找點 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 然後進入到法院的審理 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:43,000 | 好 那謝謝 |
| 00:10:43,000 | 00:10:45,000 | 那先請兩位回座 |
| 00:10:45,000 | 00:10:47,000 | 那接下來我想請這個聖能節師部長 |
| 00:10:47,000 | 00:10:49,000 | 這裡有一題想跟您請教 |
| 00:10:49,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 因為我們今天還有另外一個題目 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 是涉及到旋轉門條款 |
| 00:10:58,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 各位好 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 是 部長好 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:03,000 | 對 其實我在前幾天 |
| 00:11:03,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 我看到一則新聞 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 這個新聞主要在講 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 這個附稅署的署長宋秀玲 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 她退休 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 那麼這個新聞上面講說 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:13,000 | 這個宋署長退休之後 |
| 00:11:13,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 四大會計事務所急著搶人 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 那尤斯可應該是 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 這個宋署長她表現非常好 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:22,000 | 很有專業 |
| 00:11:22,000 | 00:11:24,000 | 所以她退休 |
| 00:11:24,000 | 00:11:26,000 | 馬上這個會計事務所 |
| 00:11:26,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 就急著想要這個聘任她 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 那她當然現在據新聞報載了 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 應該是會到資層會計事務所 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:37,000 | 可是本席在這裡就有提出一個 |
| 00:11:37,000 | 00:11:39,000 | 就提一個問題就是 |
| 00:11:39,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 因為我們知道 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:43,000 | 這會計事務所跟附稅署 |
| 00:11:43,000 | 00:11:44,000 | 他們的業務基本上 |
| 00:11:44,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 也是有密切關聯的 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:48,000 | 附稅署本身它是 |
| 00:11:48,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 跟這個處理有關於 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 稅法的修正 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 稅法的修正擬定 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 還有處理跟這個查稅 |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 以及稅務訴訟等等這些業務 |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:03,000 | 那麼現在這附稅署署長 |
| 00:12:03,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 一退休馬上就轉任會計事務所 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 這個會不會有違反旋轉門的問題 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:13,000 | 我跟文報具體的個案我不清楚 |
| 00:12:13,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 那是我談大的東西 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 根據我們現在法律的規定 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 旋轉門是禁止公務人員 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 在一定時間裡面到一個盈利事業 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 主體一定是盈利事業 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 要符合盈利事業擔任特定職務 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 可是我們不管特定行為 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 所以這兩個不同的概念 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 那現在是會計事務所 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:34,000 | 或者律師事務所 |
| 00:12:34,000 | 00:12:36,000 | 在我們現行的法律制度上裡面 |
| 00:12:36,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 它不是盈利事業 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:38,000 | 因為我們盈利事業的定義 |
| 00:12:38,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 是根據公司法或者商業登記法 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:43,000 | 或者所得稅法所定義的盈利事業 |
| 00:12:43,000 | 00:12:44,000 | 所以我現在 |
| 00:12:44,000 | 00:12:46,000 | 我跟文報這現行的法律 |
| 00:12:46,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 是這樣一個概念 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:49,000 | 因此在概念上 |
| 00:12:49,000 | 00:12:50,000 | 它就不是盈利事業 |
| 00:12:50,000 | 00:12:52,000 | 那是不是回過頭來 |
| 00:12:52,000 | 00:12:53,000 | 它如果到一個不是盈利事業 |
| 00:12:53,000 | 00:12:55,000 | 譬如像說類似這種 |
| 00:12:55,000 | 00:12:57,000 | 譬如說不管是律師事務所 |
| 00:12:57,000 | 00:12:58,000 | 或是會計事務所 |
| 00:12:58,000 | 00:12:59,000 | 因為很多專業人員 |
| 00:12:59,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 回來也會回去 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:03,000 | 那我們要不要怎麼樣去做一些討論 |
| 00:13:03,000 | 00:13:04,000 | 這是另外一回事 |
| 00:13:04,000 | 00:13:05,000 | 其實本席知道說部長您可能 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:06,000 | 一定會這樣回答 |
| 00:13:06,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 尤其是全序部本身也做了一個解釋 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 就認為說不管是律師事務所 |
| 00:13:10,000 | 00:13:11,000 | 會計事務所 |
| 00:13:11,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 基本上就不屬於公務員服務法 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:15,000 | 裡面所指的盈利事業 |
| 00:13:15,000 | 00:13:18,000 | 所以就算是之前在政府機關 |
| 00:13:18,000 | 00:13:20,000 | 擔任相關主管機關的首長 |
| 00:13:20,000 | 00:13:22,000 | 他退下來然後去轉任 |
| 00:13:22,000 | 00:13:23,000 | 律師事務所的 |
| 00:13:23,000 | 00:13:26,000 | 擔任律師或會計事務所 |
| 00:13:26,000 | 00:13:27,000 | 裡面的顧問等等 |
| 00:13:27,000 | 00:13:30,000 | 都不違反公務員服務法 |
| 00:13:30,000 | 00:13:31,000 | 裡面的旋轉門條款 |
| 00:13:31,000 | 00:13:33,000 | 可是我想這個問題 |
| 00:13:33,000 | 00:13:35,000 | 過去已經引發了很多的爭議 |
| 00:13:35,000 | 00:13:38,000 | 全序部是不是認為說 |
| 00:13:38,000 | 00:13:40,000 | 這個法應該要提出修法案 |
| 00:13:40,000 | 00:13:43,000 | 否則我覺得社會觀察很不好 |
| 00:13:43,000 | 00:13:46,000 | 對付稅署署長本來他是要去督導 |
| 00:13:46,000 | 00:13:48,000 | 要去查核這些會計事務所 |
| 00:13:48,000 | 00:13:52,000 | 因為會計師是擔任稅務的代理人 |
| 00:13:52,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 現在他從監督者 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 然後轉型變成被監督者 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:13:59,000 | 而且可能還幫著 |
| 00:13:59,000 | 00:14:01,000 | 本來要受監督這些人 |
| 00:14:01,000 | 00:14:03,000 | 去提供給他相關的意見 |
| 00:14:03,000 | 00:14:05,000 | 以後知道說這個付稅署 |
| 00:14:05,000 | 00:14:09,000 | 他去查稅可能會有什麼地方 |
| 00:14:09,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 你可以想辦法去迴避的 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:15,000 | 那麼這個問題我認為 |
| 00:14:15,000 | 00:14:17,000 | 基本上是應該積極處理 |
| 00:14:17,000 | 00:14:19,000 | 我還記得在去年 |
| 00:14:19,000 | 00:14:21,000 | 黃國昌委員也曾經有質詢過 |
| 00:14:21,000 | 00:14:24,000 | 國發基金的前殖民 |
| 00:14:24,000 | 00:14:26,000 | 也是辭職之後 |
| 00:14:26,000 | 00:14:31,000 | 立刻又轉任到一個投資顧問公司 |
| 00:14:31,000 | 00:14:34,000 | 這其實也是跟旋轉門條款是有關的 |
| 00:14:34,000 | 00:14:35,000 | 沒有錯 |
| 00:14:35,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 所以上個會期我們就討論過以後 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 也在增訂一些規範 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 但是委員所指教的這個部分 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:43,000 | 確實是一個很大的議題 |
| 00:14:43,000 | 00:14:45,000 | 因為這不僅涉及你也知道 |
| 00:14:45,000 | 00:14:48,000 | 不會是只有會計師會涉及到律師 |
| 00:14:48,000 | 00:14:49,000 | 會涉及到建築師 |
| 00:14:49,000 | 00:14:51,000 | 甚至醫師都可能 |
| 00:14:51,000 | 00:14:53,000 | 所以這個部分會涉及到更大議題 |
| 00:14:53,000 | 00:14:55,000 | 我們對旋轉門到底是採取 |
| 00:14:55,000 | 00:14:57,000 | 特定職務的禁止 |
| 00:14:57,000 | 00:14:59,000 | 還是特定行為的禁止 |
| 00:14:59,000 | 00:15:00,000 | 這過去社會也在討論 |
| 00:15:00,000 | 00:15:01,000 | 全局部也在討論過程 |
| 00:15:01,000 | 00:15:03,000 | 但是社會一直沒有太多的共識 |
| 00:15:03,000 | 00:15:06,000 | 所以我說這個議題是真的要繼續討論 |
| 00:15:06,000 | 00:15:08,000 | 但是我不能回答說 |
| 00:15:08,000 | 00:15:12,000 | 這個事情要積極的去解決 |
| 00:15:12,000 | 00:15:13,000 | 我們該提出怎麼樣的修法 |
| 00:15:13,000 | 00:15:14,000 | 就提出修法 |
| 00:15:14,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 不管是你們未來是採取的是 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:18,000 | 限制他的職務 |
| 00:15:18,000 | 00:15:20,000 | 以職務別來作為限制 |
| 00:15:20,000 | 00:15:22,000 | 或是以他的行為 |
| 00:15:22,000 | 00:15:25,000 | 任職的行為來做規範 |
| 00:15:25,000 | 00:15:29,000 | 這個總是要積極的去 |
| 00:15:29,000 | 00:15:32,000 | 透過修法去解決這個問題 |
| 00:15:32,000 | 00:15:33,000 | 否則的話 |
| 00:15:33,000 | 00:15:35,000 | 就是大家會認為說 |
| 00:15:35,000 | 00:15:37,000 | 好像公務員服務法裡面 |
| 00:15:37,000 | 00:15:38,000 | 旋轉門條款 |
| 00:15:38,000 | 00:15:42,000 | 只能夠去約束小小的公務員 |
| 00:15:42,000 | 00:15:45,000 | 但是對於真的位高權重的首長 |
| 00:15:45,000 | 00:15:46,000 | 他離職之後 |
| 00:15:46,000 | 00:15:48,000 | 完全不受任何的規範拘束 |
| 00:15:48,000 | 00:15:49,000 | 這個部分的話 |
| 00:15:49,000 | 00:15:52,000 | 我想這個不是大家所樂見的 |
| 00:15:52,000 | 00:15:53,000 | 我也希望說全局部接下來 |
| 00:15:53,000 | 00:15:55,000 | 可以積極的去針對這個議題 |
| 00:15:55,000 | 00:15:57,000 | 然後提案修法好嗎 |
| 00:15:57,000 | 00:15:59,000 | 再徵詢大家的一個意見 |
| 00:15:59,000 | 00:16:01,000 | 這個事情確實是比較複雜一點 |
| 00:16:01,000 | 00:16:02,000 | 當然了全局部不做的話 |
| 00:16:02,000 | 00:16:04,000 | 那本席就來提案做 |
| 00:16:04,000 | 00:16:05,000 | 這個事實上 |
| 00:16:05,000 | 00:16:07,000 | 我覺得這個問題一定要去解決 |
| 00:16:07,000 | 00:16:09,000 | 現在這個民進黨政府離職 |
| 00:16:09,000 | 00:16:11,000 | 就是現任的政務官 |
| 00:16:11,000 | 00:16:15,000 | 常常都會引發這種旋轉門的爭議 |
| 00:16:15,000 | 00:16:17,000 | 就是給外界的印象很不好 |
| 00:16:17,000 | 00:16:19,000 | 我想這個旋轉門條款的適用對象 |
| 00:16:19,000 | 00:16:20,000 | 是非常非常廣泛的 |
| 00:16:20,000 | 00:16:21,000 | 我想不一定是政務人員 |
| 00:16:21,000 | 00:16:22,000 | 你也應該知道 |
| 00:16:22,000 | 00:16:23,000 | 各式各樣的專業人員 |
| 00:16:23,000 | 00:16:24,000 | 都可能會涉及到 |
| 00:16:24,000 | 00:16:25,000 | 是的沒錯 |
| 00:16:25,000 | 00:16:26,000 | 所以就是必須要把這個問題 |
| 00:16:26,000 | 00:16:27,000 | 要理清楚好不好 |
| 00:16:27,000 | 00:16:28,000 | 謝謝 |