iVOD / 170684
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| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:52,000 | 好 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:52,000 | 00:00:59,000 | 那麻煩請衛福部時部長跟食藥署江署長還有農業部的代表 |
| 00:00:59,000 | 00:01:03,000 | 謝謝 政務員好 |
| 00:01:03,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 部長好 大家好 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:14,000 | 那我們今天討論的是蘋果的除蟲用藥分譜凝的許可殘留標準 |
| 00:01:14,000 | 00:01:19,000 | 那首先呢 就是台灣農藥如果名稱帶有凝這個字的 |
| 00:01:19,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 通常大概就是指合成除蟲菊精類的殺蟲劑 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:29,000 | 常見的有百面菱啊 塞面菱還有地面菱等等 |
| 00:01:29,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 這一類的這個農藥效果好毒性低 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 那常被用來這個農田除蟲或居家環境的防蚊蟲 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 這樣 對吧 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 委員的這個農藥的知識可能比我高啦 所以我不敢 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 有幫你請農業部的 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 喔 農業部 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 就剛剛講的應該沒有 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:49,000 | 是 |
| 00:01:49,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 大致上是這樣 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:51,000 | 是 包委員 委員講的是 |
| 00:01:51,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 好 謝謝 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:59,000 | 那這一次的這個爭議主要是在這個蘋果的這個農藥殘留容許量的標準的分類喔 |
| 00:01:59,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 那我們的法規呢 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 不同功效的農藥在不同的蔬果標準也是不一樣的 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:08,000 | 那有些蔬果呢 在特定的這個農藥不一定 |
| 00:02:08,000 | 00:02:12,000 | 它不一定有這個單獨的容許標準喔 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:19,000 | 也因此就是說在今年的4月21日新修訂的這個農藥殘留容許量標準表裡面呢 |
| 00:02:19,000 | 00:02:21,000 | 蘋果本來是屬於其他乾果類 |
| 00:02:21,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 適用標準為0.5ppm |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:25,000 | 結果是在修訂之後呢 |
| 00:02:25,000 | 00:02:27,000 | 又單獨將蘋果列為一項 |
| 00:02:27,000 | 00:02:29,000 | 標準變成3ppm |
| 00:02:29,000 | 00:02:31,000 | 那我想要請教署長喔 |
| 00:02:31,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 您之前是台大醫學院獨立學研究所的教授 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:39,000 | 然後您又是這個腎臟科的醫師喔 |
| 00:02:39,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 那以前喔 在這個門診 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 就是說 在這個門診當中 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 您有沒有看過這個芬普寧中毒的病人 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 報告委員是沒有預估 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 好 那我再請教一下喔 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 他的這個毒性很大嗎 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 那就是說在人體 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 人體體內代謝的速度如何 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:02,000 | 我們一天大概就是容許量是多少 |
| 00:03:02,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 那比較實際換算一下就是說 |
| 00:03:05,000 | 00:03:09,000 | 比如說要在多久時間內服用多少劑量 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 他會中毒 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:13,000 | 報告委員 |
| 00:03:13,000 | 00:03:15,000 | 這個農藥的部分 |
| 00:03:15,000 | 00:03:17,000 | 我們都會針對他的急性中毒 |
| 00:03:17,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 跟我們一般的慢性長期 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 慢性長期我們的容許量 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 我們是每天吃 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 隨時吃 吃一輩子 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 那我們算出芬普寧這一個蘋果訂出來的劑量 |
| 00:03:29,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 大概是我們可以接受的 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:33,000 | 大概30%還不到40% |
| 00:03:33,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 所以在整體的風險評估底下 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 我們認為他是在這個範圍內是可接受的 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 那這樣子的評估基準是 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 也是在食品安全風險評估之一會裡面的委員 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 其實都確認過 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 那前端呢實際上在農業部的農藥試驗所裡面 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 協助做這個以國際的OECD的計算方式 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 得到的一個公示確立下來 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 這公示一定是前端有非常好的 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 所謂的優良的農業的practice |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 才能夠去進入我們的計算公示 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 所以這個算出來呢也搭配了我們的飲食的 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:13,000 | 叫食物菜籃 |
| 00:04:13,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 加上我們的田間 |
| 00:04:15,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 所以綜合考量之後的結果 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:19,000 | 那當初送來的是5ppm |
| 00:04:19,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 那我們這個算完之後 |
| 00:04:21,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 其實是沒有採納5ppm |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 我這樣問好了啦 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 因為您是教授 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 又是醫生 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 那您講的話 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 未必所有的民眾都會在第一時間 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 最短的時間都完全聽得懂 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 所以我簡單的問 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 就是說 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 因為我也這樣查詢嘛 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 我們講一顆 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 這顆蘋果還不算太大啦 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 就是差不多中型的蘋果250克左右 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:52,000 | 那這個分普寧含量3.0ppm |
| 00:04:52,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 我如果短時間內我要吃多少顆 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 我才會這個分普寧中毒 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 我實際上沒有精確的算啦 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 以極限中毒的話 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 那可能是要吃幾十顆 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 這個蘋果才會有這樣的 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 其實是上百顆 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 其實我查詢了一下啦 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 就是說以這樣的標準 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 就是說可能要吃到數十公斤 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 甚至上百公斤 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 含超標的這個生鮮蔬果 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 而且在短時間喔 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 它才會中毒 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 我覺得會比較會撐死掉 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:27,000 | 那比較危險 |
| 00:05:27,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 不建議這樣吃 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 那我們就換算嘛 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 所以我算了一下 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 他說達上百公斤的話 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:38,000 | 這個250克一顆的蘋果 |
| 00:05:38,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 大概也要吃到400顆 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 在很短的時間內 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 所以可能還沒中毒 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:45,000 | 就已經撐死了 |
| 00:05:45,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 那接下來我要再請教一下 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 就是署長就是說 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:56,000 | ppm是ppb的多少倍 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:57,000 | 這個是千倍 |
| 00:05:57,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 一千倍嘛 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 是不是容許標準指定的越低 |
| 00:06:01,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 代表對人體的毒性就越大 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 定的越低的濃度 |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:09,000 | 表示它可以接受的是 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:12,000 | 更為低的濃度 |
| 00:06:12,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 所以它比較毒才會這樣子 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 那再來我們從這個 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 奈米銀的毒理學來看喔 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 就等於是說 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 單位重量的這個表面積越大 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:25,000 | 它是不是就是毒性會越強 |
| 00:06:25,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 單位面積的表面積越大 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 對 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 這個題目有點聽不懂 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 在原則上是 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 其實就是我這樣講 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:34,000 | 就是這樣子 |
| 00:06:34,000 | 00:06:37,000 | 因為或者我再換一個比較好了 |
| 00:06:37,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 這樣子 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 你看喔都一克的話 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 這樣的一克跟這樣的一克 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 它這個表面積就是它的皮啦 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:47,000 | 面積會比較大的意思啦 |
| 00:06:47,000 | 00:06:51,000 | 好所以我剛的問題就是這樣子 |
| 00:06:51,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 所以就是說單位重量的這個表面積越大 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 它的毒性是不是就越強 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:58,000 | 好當然是肯定的嘛 |
| 00:06:58,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 那所以等於我剛剛講就是 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 我剛剛拿了一克櫻桃跟一克的蘋果嘛 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 那一克這個整顆櫻桃的表面積 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 它肯定就是比這一顆蘋果的表面積還要大啊 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 你一口就整個皮也都吃下去了嘛 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 那我查了一下你們新的這個標準表第86頁 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 發現櫻桃的這個標準是3ppm |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 那葡萄呢我這邊還有葡萄這麼小顆 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 比櫻桃還小的 |
| 00:07:33,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 好那我們再跟這個蘋果再比一下 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 這麼小的葡萄 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:45,000 | 那這個葡萄剛說葡萄是5ppm |
| 00:07:45,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 那農藥一般是殘留在果皮上 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 所以你們的標準檢驗方法 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 只是針對果皮去測量這個殘留量 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 還是果皮跟果肉攪拌均勻之後一起測 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:03,000 | 這個都是打碎的 |
| 00:08:03,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 好都打碎嘛 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 好你們也不用擔心 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 因為農業部在旁邊會幫忙 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:13,000 | 那如果果皮跟果肉是一起測的 |
| 00:08:13,000 | 00:08:18,000 | 那殘留的農藥又是只會出現在果皮上面嘛 |
| 00:08:18,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 一般大部分是這樣啦 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:25,000 | 那標準的單位又是重量對重量的ppm |
| 00:08:25,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 好那我剛剛講的這個大顆的蘋果 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 跟這個體積小的蘋果 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 我這兩顆哪一樣比較容易超標 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 正常推理的話 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:41,000 | 看它表面積嘛 |
| 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 這個你不要害怕啦 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 你們不要很緊張 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 我沒有要害你們 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 其實很簡單 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 剛剛就是講了嘛 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 這個表面積就是說你越小顆表面積 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 它比例上會越大 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:58,000 | 所以原理是這樣子 |
| 00:08:58,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 那所以大小顆比較起來 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 體積小的蘋果樣本其實是比較容易超標啦 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 正常這樣換算起來是這樣 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:13,000 | 所以我再回到早上 |
| 00:09:13,000 | 00:09:15,000 | 一開始我們會議的時候 |
| 00:09:15,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 我們有一群坐在中央 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 這個中間位置的那些委員們 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 不是養藥委員 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 那個那我們早上坐在那一群的 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 中間那一群大部分是 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:31,000 | 就是前兩案的提案委員啦 |
| 00:09:31,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 那因為我們早上在爭論不休的是 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 因為蘋果從0.5ppm改到3ppm |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 他們叫毒蘋果 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 那我現在講就是說 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 那如果3.0是毒蘋果 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 那我剛剛說的葡萄 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 我們葡萄是5.0ppm |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:55,000 | 那是不是這個葡萄也要叫毒葡萄 |
| 00:09:55,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 那我們再來看一下喔 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:10:01,000 | 那如果再換一下我們這個櫻桃 |
| 00:10:01,000 | 00:10:03,000 | 櫻桃是3.0 |
| 00:10:03,000 | 00:10:05,000 | 一樣的那是不是這個櫻桃 |
| 00:10:05,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 我們應該沒有特別去動 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 剛剛那些葡萄什麼的嘛 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 櫻桃是往下的 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 對櫻桃要往下 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 那所以那已經降到3.0 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 是不是這個櫻桃也叫毒櫻桃呢 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:21,000 | 那再來我們再來看檸檬 |
| 00:10:21,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 雖然從5降到2.0 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 但按照他們超過0.5就叫毒蘋果的話 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:32,000 | 那這個也叫毒檸檬囉 |
| 00:10:32,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 所以除了這個 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 我們還有2.0的柳橙 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 也叫毒柳橙嗎 |
| 00:10:39,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 然後我們的芒果比0.5多一點點1.0 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:47,000 | 也是超過0.5按照早上那個標準 |
| 00:10:47,000 | 00:10:49,000 | 也叫毒芒果囉 |
| 00:10:49,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 所以這樣子的講法用詞 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:56,000 | 其實就是完全沒有去考量 |
| 00:10:56,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 我們國人每日的這個使用 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 這個使用的這個容許量嘛 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 還有就是我們的飲食習慣清潔方法 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:07,000 | 還有這些毒性的這個研究嘛 |
| 00:11:07,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 好等等 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 那還有這個田間殘留試驗的數據 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:13,000 | 通通都拋在腦後了嘛 |
| 00:11:13,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 所以早上我大概點出 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 大家為什麼早上在爭論那個毒蘋果 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:23,000 | 這個用詞 |
| 00:11:23,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 你不能說我們把它定標準 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 你都把它套上一個毒 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 那我們還有茶葉去看一下 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 在這個這個表裡面是10 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 那不就叫毒茶葉嗎 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:36,000 | 好那沒關係 |
| 00:11:36,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 我們等一下再回頭來看這個 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:39,000 | 就是署長 |
| 00:11:39,000 | 00:11:42,000 | 接下來我請教一下部長 |
| 00:11:42,000 | 00:11:45,000 | 我的印象蘋果是溫帶的水果 |
| 00:11:45,000 | 00:11:49,000 | 那美國跟日本種出來的蘋果比較大顆 |
| 00:11:49,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 他們的這個芬普寧殘留的標準 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 分別是美國是5ppm |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 還有日本的2ppm |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 而且這種這個儲存橘精類的這個農藥 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:03,000 | 化學成分比較就是說 |
| 00:12:03,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 跟天然的這個儲存菊花比較類似 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 那我從Google上面 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 我有查詢到的資料就是說 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 美國的環保署他們的評估 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:17,000 | 也認為芬普寧不太可能對人體致癌 |
| 00:12:17,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 當然我現在引用美國的資料 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 我不是專家 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 但如果是我們台灣生產的蘋果比較小顆的話 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:29,000 | 那是不是就是說相較這個 |
| 00:12:29,000 | 00:12:33,000 | 我們修訂以前的數據是比較不容易超標 |
| 00:12:33,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 這樣比較起來其實在販售上反而是有利的 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 我們農業部點頭嘛對不對 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 對我們的農民是有利的 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:43,000 | 那事實上呢 |
| 00:12:43,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 如果有葡萄的標準 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 好都可以訂到5ppm的話 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:50,000 | 那我想要請教就是說 |
| 00:12:50,000 | 00:12:52,000 | 葡萄我們通常你看這麼小 |
| 00:12:52,000 | 00:12:55,000 | 我大概一次一顆我也不太會吐皮 |
| 00:12:55,000 | 00:12:59,000 | 那跟這個整顆的蘋果這樣比起來 |
| 00:12:59,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 那我們5.0跟3.0 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:05,000 | 是不是也算是可以接受的範圍 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:09,000 | 其實從剛剛委員的質詢裡面呢 |
| 00:13:09,000 | 00:13:11,000 | 那麼就可以很清楚的了解 |
| 00:13:11,000 | 00:13:15,000 | 這個絕對值是沒有意義的 |
| 00:13:15,000 | 00:13:18,000 | 因為在不同類別之間是沒有辦法相比 |
| 00:13:18,000 | 00:13:21,000 | 說看這個絕對值的高低是沒有意義 |
| 00:13:21,000 | 00:13:27,000 | 因為每一個品項牽涉到這個設施習慣設施量 |
| 00:13:27,000 | 00:13:33,000 | 還有農藥的本身他的施灑的這個在做的情形 |
| 00:13:33,000 | 00:13:38,000 | 所以他都是需要經過一個嚴謹的評估之後去訂出來 |
| 00:13:38,000 | 00:13:41,000 | 所以我想這個謝謝委員 |
| 00:13:41,000 | 00:13:44,000 | 很清楚的讓大家可以理解這個絕對值 |
| 00:13:44,000 | 00:13:46,000 | 這個多少ppm這個絕對值 |
| 00:13:46,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 先不要講這個ppm就10的六四方分之一 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:51,000 | 先不要講這個 |
| 00:13:51,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 那麼但是這個絕對值相較之間是沒有意義的 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 還是要回到每一個類別之間去看 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:14:01,000 | 但我覺得把這個葡萄櫻桃跟蘋果比較起來 |
| 00:14:01,000 | 00:14:04,000 | 那個數字攤開來民眾很容易理解 |
| 00:14:04,000 | 00:14:06,000 | 但你們有沒有想過用這樣的方式去 |
| 00:14:06,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 所以這一次才會把它從那個梨果類把它拉出來 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:18,000 | 各自去那個桃子梨子然後葡萄 |
| 00:14:18,000 | 00:14:20,000 | 葡萄有各自去列項 |
| 00:14:20,000 | 00:14:24,000 | 因為本期是有查到就是說 |
| 00:14:24,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 農業部的這個動植物你們防疫檢疫局的資料 |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:33,000 | 因為葡萄有一種針聚引起的嗅病 |
| 00:14:33,000 | 00:14:35,000 | 好生鏽的嗅病 |
| 00:14:35,000 | 00:14:37,000 | 那芬普寧是可以發揮很好的儲淨效果 |
| 00:14:37,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 那因為葡萄它的體積很小 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 在考慮它危害性不高 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:46,000 | 好所以因此可以容許這個殘留值為5ppm |
| 00:14:46,000 | 00:14:48,000 | 好應該是這樣吧 |
| 00:14:48,000 | 00:14:52,000 | 那我如果講錯你就糾正我 |
| 00:14:52,000 | 00:14:54,000 | 沒有錯我們就繼續講下去 |
| 00:14:54,000 | 00:14:56,000 | 農藥學用是針對它的病蟲害 |
| 00:14:56,000 | 00:14:58,000 | 對象是病蟲害 |
| 00:14:58,000 | 00:15:01,000 | 每一種原意沒有做的原意性狀不一樣 |
| 00:15:01,000 | 00:15:05,000 | 所以今天農藥殘留標準是可以根據 |
| 00:15:05,000 | 00:15:07,000 | 有沒有病蟲害流行 |
| 00:15:07,000 | 00:15:09,000 | 還有水果的食用特性 |
| 00:15:09,000 | 00:15:12,000 | 跟學術界的這個毒性研究來家裡評估之後調整 |
| 00:15:12,000 | 00:15:14,000 | 大家是不是認同 |
| 00:15:14,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 好那我們再繼續看下去 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:18,000 | 這個剛剛我又點到一個重點 |
| 00:15:18,000 | 00:15:20,000 | 為什麼那個田間施作很重要 |
| 00:15:20,000 | 00:15:24,000 | 因為每一個國家它有不同的病蟲害 |
| 00:15:24,000 | 00:15:27,000 | 所以它的農藥的施作情形是不同的 |
| 00:15:27,000 | 00:15:28,000 | 量是不同的 |
| 00:15:28,000 | 00:15:32,000 | 所以會根據我們的安全容許量去定出一個標準 |
| 00:15:32,000 | 00:15:34,000 | 各國之間也有落差就是這樣 |
| 00:15:34,000 | 00:15:36,000 | 是那我們從這一次爭議來看 |
| 00:15:36,000 | 00:15:38,000 | 當我們外界質疑一項標準的改變 |
| 00:15:38,000 | 00:15:40,000 | 是不是有事實的考量的時候 |
| 00:15:40,000 | 00:15:42,000 | 最好的解方 |
| 00:15:42,000 | 00:15:44,000 | 解方就是我們用數據來說話 |
| 00:15:44,000 | 00:15:48,000 | 那食藥署掌握了許多行政的資料 |
| 00:15:48,000 | 00:15:50,000 | 本席建議你們拜託 |
| 00:15:50,000 | 00:15:52,000 | 要好好的善加利用 |
| 00:15:52,000 | 00:15:56,000 | 那如果第一時間可以讓民眾知道說 |
| 00:15:56,000 | 00:15:59,000 | 分譜您在不同的水果殘留的數值 |
| 00:15:59,000 | 00:16:01,000 | 食藥署你們都有掌握 |
| 00:16:01,000 | 00:16:03,000 | 而且這個放寬標準 |
| 00:16:03,000 | 00:16:06,000 | 不見得是因為它的殘留值變高 |
| 00:16:06,000 | 00:16:08,000 | 好那你們好好去提早好好去檢視 |
| 00:16:08,000 | 00:16:10,000 | 相信就是說可以 |
| 00:16:10,000 | 00:16:13,000 | 更讓這個民眾可以安心 |
| 00:16:13,000 | 00:16:15,000 | 那我也藉這個機會 |
| 00:16:15,000 | 00:16:18,000 | 也是我一個自我的反省跟觀察 |
| 00:16:18,000 | 00:16:22,000 | 就是說每一個政黨都有執政的機會 |
| 00:16:22,000 | 00:16:25,000 | 那通常在立法院的生態 |
| 00:16:25,000 | 00:16:30,000 | 通常執政黨都想盡辦法要穩定民心 |
| 00:16:30,000 | 00:16:34,000 | 在野黨就是我們抓到一個議題的時候 |
| 00:16:34,000 | 00:16:36,000 | 就想盡辦法把它放大 |
| 00:16:36,000 | 00:16:38,000 | 把它窮追猛打 |
| 00:16:38,000 | 00:16:40,000 | 唯恐天下不亂 |
| 00:16:40,000 | 00:16:42,000 | 最好所有的事情 |
| 00:16:42,000 | 00:16:44,000 | 所有的那個都零減出 |
| 00:16:44,000 | 00:16:46,000 | 一般我會講立法院的生態 |
| 00:16:46,000 | 00:16:48,000 | 那我不能一直講別人這種事 |
| 00:16:48,000 | 00:16:50,000 | 其實我們以前在野的時候 |
| 00:16:50,000 | 00:16:52,000 | 我們都幹過啦 |
| 00:16:52,000 | 00:16:55,000 | 那所以我覺得我自己本身 |
| 00:16:55,000 | 00:16:57,000 | 我要講別人之前 |
| 00:16:57,000 | 00:16:58,000 | 我先講我自己啊 |
| 00:16:58,000 | 00:17:00,000 | 那我們都我們其實也 |
| 00:17:00,000 | 00:17:02,000 | 在座有很多人也做很多解了 |
| 00:17:02,000 | 00:17:04,000 | 我們都會成長 |
| 00:17:04,000 | 00:17:05,000 | 我們都會反省嘛 |
| 00:17:05,000 | 00:17:07,000 | 所以食安這些問題 |
| 00:17:07,000 | 00:17:09,000 | 大家最後還是回歸專業啦 |
| 00:17:09,000 | 00:17:11,000 | 好來來解決 |
| 00:17:11,000 | 00:17:13,000 | 那再來就是說跟衛福部分享 |
| 00:17:13,000 | 00:17:15,000 | 就是說不管食藥署還是國健署 |
| 00:17:15,000 | 00:17:17,000 | 其他的單位喔 |
| 00:17:17,000 | 00:17:19,000 | 那衛福部的業務都非常專業 |
| 00:17:19,000 | 00:17:21,000 | 就是像剛剛食藥署署長講了一堆 |
| 00:17:21,000 | 00:17:23,000 | 還有最早你剛來立法院 |
| 00:17:23,000 | 00:17:25,000 | 我們也交手過你也是講了一堆 |
| 00:17:25,000 | 00:17:27,000 | 那但是問題是就是說 |
| 00:17:27,000 | 00:17:29,000 | 聽起來很專業 |
| 00:17:29,000 | 00:17:31,000 | 但是民眾都聽不懂啊 |
| 00:17:31,000 | 00:17:33,000 | 所以你們的課題很重要就是說 |
| 00:17:33,000 | 00:17:35,000 | 到底要用什麼樣的方式 |
| 00:17:35,000 | 00:17:37,000 | 第一時間才能夠讓民眾 |
| 00:17:37,000 | 00:17:39,000 | 能夠就是說 |
| 00:17:39,000 | 00:17:41,000 | 接受你們的講法然後能夠了解 |
| 00:17:41,000 | 00:17:43,000 | 好所以 |
| 00:17:43,000 | 00:17:45,000 | 因為專業才 |
| 00:17:45,000 | 00:17:47,000 | 更需要溝通嘛 |
| 00:17:47,000 | 00:17:49,000 | 你們不能說動不動就用自己的想法 |
| 00:17:49,000 | 00:17:51,000 | 去否定民眾 |
| 00:17:51,000 | 00:17:53,000 | 或者說舉例啊 |
| 00:17:53,000 | 00:17:55,000 | 譬如說加熱燕德開放啦 |
| 00:17:55,000 | 00:17:57,000 | 精人性食品的健康效應啦 |
| 00:17:57,000 | 00:17:59,000 | 中藥材食材的管理啦 |
| 00:17:59,000 | 00:18:01,000 | 很多都是我們民眾的需求啊 |
| 00:18:01,000 | 00:18:03,000 | 那但是衛福部 |
| 00:18:03,000 | 00:18:05,000 | 部份的官員常常會以自己的專業啊 |
| 00:18:05,000 | 00:18:07,000 | 去否定民眾的需求嘛 |
| 00:18:07,000 | 00:18:09,000 | 你們想要透過這個權利 |
| 00:18:09,000 | 00:18:11,000 | 跟一些管制措施啊 |
| 00:18:11,000 | 00:18:13,000 | 去替民眾做健康的決定 |
| 00:18:13,000 | 00:18:15,000 | 好所以不要忘了 |
| 00:18:15,000 | 00:18:17,000 | 就是說去要尊重 |
| 00:18:17,000 | 00:18:19,000 | 每個人的想法大家每個人需求 |
| 00:18:19,000 | 00:18:21,000 | 是不一樣的那健康也是如此 |
| 00:18:21,000 | 00:18:23,000 | 嘛所以同樣一個這個 |
| 00:18:23,000 | 00:18:25,000 | 農業的殘留標準 |
| 00:18:25,000 | 00:18:27,000 | 櫻桃跟蘋果 |
| 00:18:27,000 | 00:18:29,000 | 可以就是說他可以 |
| 00:18:29,000 | 00:18:31,000 | 一樣啊葡萄可以更高 |
| 00:18:31,000 | 00:18:33,000 | 其實不管這邊我現在擺在桌上 |
| 00:18:33,000 | 00:18:35,000 | 所有的水果不管他的 |
| 00:18:35,000 | 00:18:37,000 | 標準是怎麼樣 |
| 00:18:37,000 | 00:18:39,000 | 他都是安全的包括茶葉 |
| 00:18:39,000 | 00:18:41,000 | 好那所以希望未來 |
| 00:18:41,000 | 00:18:43,000 | 衛福部的每一位官員喔 |
| 00:18:43,000 | 00:18:45,000 | 的思維就是說 |
| 00:18:45,000 | 00:18:47,000 | 你們有你們的專業 |
| 00:18:47,000 | 00:18:49,000 | 但是你們講出來的話 |
| 00:18:49,000 | 00:18:51,000 | 可不可以更接地氣 |
| 00:18:51,000 | 00:18:53,000 | 更有人情味好那不然 |
| 00:18:53,000 | 00:18:55,000 | 就是說我們也都希望每一次的質詢 |
| 00:18:55,000 | 00:18:57,000 | 都可以看到你們在做每一位啊 |
| 00:18:57,000 | 00:18:59,000 | 好不要因為你們的專業 |
| 00:18:59,000 | 00:19:01,000 | 而失去未來再站在這裡 |
| 00:19:01,000 | 00:19:03,000 | 備詢的機會啦我是做這樣的提醒 |
| 00:19:03,000 | 00:19:05,000 | 好謝謝委員 |
| 00:19:05,000 | 00:19:07,000 | 我們這個溝通還有很多 |
| 00:19:07,000 | 00:19:09,000 | 要學習的地方來多向您學習 |
| 00:19:09,000 | 00:19:11,000 | 還可以討論討論 |
| 00:19:11,000 | 00:19:13,000 | 好謝謝 |
| 00:19:13,000 | 00:19:15,000 | 好謝謝陳運委員的諮詢 |