| IVOD_ID |
17065 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17065 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-24T08:37:26+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-24T11:36:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:58:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dfc2a62a6cd662d9eec722e629163627185db5c09cad80ab732b2f436a384b2125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「日本首相高市早苗『台灣有事說』及『安保三文件修正』對區域安全及台海穩定的情勢研析」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:37:26 - 11:36:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1429.985 |
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報告委員會出席委員7人已足法定人數好我們現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1440.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1459.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期外交及國防委員會第十六次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年11月20日星期四上午9時1分至12時49分地點紅樓森林議會議室出席委員陳永康等11人列席委員楊瓊英等10人列席人員外交部部長林佳龍及所屬人員農業部常務治長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1461.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1480.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
杜文貞 衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀 主席馬昭吉委員文君報告是 想依宣讀上次會議思路決定確定二 邀請外交部部長林佳龍 農業部次長衛生福利部次長報告整合國家優勢輸出推動國際合作發展策略與進展並被質詢外交部部長林佳龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1481.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1497.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
農業部常務次長杜汶禎 衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀 包括委員盧美玲等16人質詢軍有外交部部長林佳龍 農業部常務次長杜汶禎 衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀及財團法人國際合作發展基金會秘書長黃玉玲等及其答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1498.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1516.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
決定一登記諮詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員徐富奎所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請相關機關於二周年以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1520.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1541.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
因為在場委員不足額我們待會再來確認議事錄那現在請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國家安全局外交部報告日本首相高市長苗台灣有事說及安保文件修正對區域安全及台灣穩定的形勢延期並被質詢宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1544.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1562.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 我們現在在場的委員有崔永康委員這個永遠第一個 謝謝然後我們今天先跟本會委員同仁報告因為今天排定這個主題的時候呢國安局局長蔡明彥以及外交部林佳龍部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1563.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1588.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
還有亞太司、亞非司、北美司、條法司、國主司的主管因公務無法列席也在上個禮拜提出請假完成請假程序本席給予准假都該由副主管戴維出席向本會同仁報告請查照目前在場列席的官員國安局由副局長張元斌 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1594.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1621.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
外交部是由政務次長吳志忠亞太司副司長林鴻勛亞非司副司長陳永柏歐洲司司長黃軍耀拉美司司長鄭麗晨北美司副司長焦國祐 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1624.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1650.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
條法司專門委員黃仁良國主司副司長張之煞國和司司長連玉平國傳司司長張秀珍研社會主任柯良瑞公眾外交協調會執行長蕭光偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1655.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1667.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
非政府組織國務事務會江振偉台日協秘書長張仁久領務局局長鄭振友 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1672.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1701.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好 本日會議邀請國安局外交部來進行專案報告主題是日本首相高市早苗的台灣有事 日本有事以及安保三文件即將修正對區域安全對台海穩定的情勢的研析那因為這個主題對台灣影響非常重大非常重要那我們今天特別請國安局跟外交部就專案的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1702.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1717.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
現在在場委員還有羅梅林委員剛才我們的議事錄已經宣讀完畢請問在場委員有沒有要修正的部分沒有的話我們議事錄確定我們現在先請外交部吳次長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1735.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1739.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生 大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1741.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1766.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
承蒙貴委員會邀請外交部前來就日本首相高市早苗台灣有事說及安保三文件修正對區域安全及台岸穩定的情形形勢延期進行專題報告並並備詢以以下僅提出本部的說明進行主席及各位委員不吝指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1768.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1794.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
日本藉制定和平安全法制與修改安保三文件持續提升區域嚇阻及應處能力近年 日本為因應中國 俄羅斯及北韓等周遭威權國家急速擴張所帶來的安全課題對外持續積極強化美日同盟對內同時推動相關法制整備 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1795.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1821.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
以求提升自身防衛能力及應處能力因此日本於2015年制定《和平安全法制》對國家安全狀態的認定依程度大致可分為第一點 重要影響事態第二點 純利危機事態以及第三點 武力攻擊事態只有在認定屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1823.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1845.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
存立危機事態或武力攻擊事態的時候日本才能發動自衛隊行使武力日本進一步於2022年修訂保安三文件定調中國為前所未有之最大戰略挑戰強調台海和平穩定的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1847.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1876.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
高市首相就任以後宣布為因應日益複雜多變的安保情勢決心達成提升防衛經費至GDP佔比2%之目標並於2026年再次修訂安保三文件後持續發展值得我們繼續關切跟注意日本高市政權承襲安倍路線安保的思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1877.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1902.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
高市政權外交防衛政策基本承襲安倍路線的保安思維除了持續強化美日同盟以及日本自身的防衛能力之外另外重視經濟安全與技術自主同時將加強推動半導體AI 造船等戰略領域的產業發展與技術研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1906.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1934.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
高士首相也高度重視台海議題就任其今持續公開重申台海和平穩定的重要性不過高士首相在本月7號在日本國會答辯就台灣有事之事態認定做出較明確的陳述結果引發中國強烈的反彈中國以戰狼外交等激烈反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1935.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1964.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
日本在立場與務實求取平衡來對應針對高市首相在國會的答辯中國駐大阪總領事薛健率先發難中國外交部也發表聲明抨擊另外召見日本駐中國大使金山憲至強烈抗議中國也同時發動一系列的經濟脅迫的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1966.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1991.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
包含呼籲中國公民在近期避免赴日本旅遊以及留學宣布停止進口日本水產等等措施面對中國強硬作為日方則召見中國駐日大使吳江浩就薛某不當言論表達強烈抗議要求中國必須妥適應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1994.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2021.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
並強調高市首相答詢內容系基於日方的一貫立場另外指派外務省亞大局局長金錦正章前往北京與中國外交部亞洲司司長劉進松會議協商不過事後因為中國官媒以流氓插手褲帶訓示金錦局長等照片進行大內宣激怒了日本輿論 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2022.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2050.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
日中關係緊張到現在都沒有趨緩本部的觀察與檢析高市首相在國會針對純利危機事態進行答辯基本上仍然遵循日本政府既定的立場答詢為第一點以首相身份在國會殿堂並就第二點所謂台灣有事之事態做出較明確的陳述 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2052.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2080.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
引發部分輿論質疑高市首相發言似乎逾越了歷代政府的見解並引起中國的強烈反彈然而本次中國一連串舉動擴大了衝突致使日中關係陷入僵局加以目前第二軌議員外交管道的萎縮壓縮了戰略的迴旋空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2081.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2108.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
短期內僵局可能會持續下去日本政府迄今對於所謂台灣有事是否構成純利危機事態一律以必須依個別情況綜合判斷而定難以一概而論來進行說明並未明確回應實務上所謂台灣有事牽涉的情形甚廣如果台海發生衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2110.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2119.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
日本政府決策除了涉及高度政治判斷外也將受美國態度及日本社會與疫情等諸多因素影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2121.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2140.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
另外一方面 當前日本輿論普遍的對台灣友好重視台海的和平穩定以及促進台灣與日本友好的交流已經是日本政界普遍共識高市政權內閣閣員多為長期與我們台灣互動密切的政要 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2142.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2160.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
今後我方亦善用高市內閣友台的力量推升台日關係同時持續多方佈局強化經營國會各黨派的人脈確保日本有我的力量得以持續穩定推動我們台日關係的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2163.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2173.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
結與日中關係緊張已經引起國際社會的關注美國國務院首席副發言人皮格特 也聲援本案 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2174.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2199.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
台美日共享自由民主人權及法治等基本價值觀面臨共同的傳統與非傳統安全挑戰今後我國將以總和外交為羅盤三略戰略為指針推展多邊全面夥伴關係謝謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝吳次長接下來進行報告的是由國安局張副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2212.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2230.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席 各位委員先進 各位女士 先生 大家好非常感謝大院安排本局列席今日日本首相高市早苗台灣有事說及安保三文件修正對區域安全及台海穩定之情勢延期專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2232.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2254.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
高市早苗今年11月7日在國會答詢稱台海有事可能構成日本存亡危機事態後引發中共強烈反應本局緊究日本高市內閣立場情勢發展及影響評估向大院各委員報告如此一日本高市內閣立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2256.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2279.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
首相首次纏民台灣有事11月7日在野立憲民主黨眾議員岡田克也在國會質詢台灣有事議題提問假如台海遭中共封鎖情況是否符合日本安保法中得以行使集體自衛權之存亡危機事態高市首相表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2280.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2298.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
若中共動用軍艦伴隨使用武力以及透過武力阻止美軍解除台海封鎖均可能構成存亡危機事態屆時日本政府將綜合考量所有資訊做出判斷依法定程序啟動集體自衛權運用武力支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2301.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2329.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
二 推動修正安保三文件日本原定二零二七年檢討修訂國家安全保障戰略國家防衛戰略防衛力整備計畫然因應安全形勢變化尤其中共 俄國 北韓安全威脅加劇高市主張提前於明年完成修訂戰略文件必加速防衛體制轉型強化防衛裝備延產 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2331.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2343.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
放寬防衛裝備輸出規範並達成防衛經費佔比GDP-2目標二 情勢發展中共運用複合式有限度手段施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2344.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2373.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
外交方面 中共外交部 國台辦國防部等部門發表恫嚇言論並取消原定11月下旬日韓中文化部長會議輿論方面 透過官媒操作日本間諜竊密 琉球地位未定論等敘事經貿方面 發布赴日旅遊 遊學警示暫緩民間藝文交流活動以及終止重啟日本水產品進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2374.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2401.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
在揮袋及軍事方面渲染中共海警船在釣魚台12海里內例行活動以及在黃海岸際小型火炮射擊火炮射擊的位置跟時間詳如次頁圖配合徵訊的操作企圖透過複合式有限度脅迫手段施壓日本撤回言論與讓步二 日本堅定立場違反緩和局勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2403.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2421.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
日本已宣布不會撤回首相涉台言論強調此系秉持嚴所當嚴立場重申台海核穩對日本及國際社會穩定至關重要一半判以和平方式解決台海失誤日方並要求中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2423.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2447.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
託處駐大阪總領事薛健恫嚇言論同時透過內閣官房長官外務大臣說明首相言論無關日本政策調整且不涉及主權問題另外 日本外務省派遣亞大局局長訪中呼籲避免讓特定事件損及雙邊關係三 美盟強調共維台海和平穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2448.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2458.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
七大工業國集團G7外長11月12日發表聯合聲明強調台海核穩重要性反對片面改變現狀企圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2460.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2488.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
美國國務院11月20日表示對美日同盟的承諾堅定不移無論在台海、東海、南海美國均堅決反對片面改變現狀企圖包括使用武力或脅迫手段美國駐日本大使格拉斯除批評中共對日本經濟脅迫外亦速度強調美日同盟穩固將續與日方共為台海及區域核穩 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2489.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2516.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
美軍11月17日更與自衛隊在東海及沖繩周邊空域舉行連線美日派遣F-35A戰機及B-1B轟炸機等先進軍機近30架規模較以往擴大展現美日同盟聯合作戰及嚇阻能量三 影響評估一 日中矛盾 短期難調和 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2517.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2545.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
日中關係陷入各數立場僵局雙方對立氛圍明顯短期不易轉圜日本雖不願爭端擴大然亦不願屈從霸權可能蓄踩堅定立場尋求溝通原則應對中共或持續操作經貿脅迫 輿論操作揮帶襲擾等作為並拉攏日本在野製造內部分化 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2546.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2550.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
以及以上B官對高市內閣進行施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2551.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2579.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
二 高市安保改革强化嚇阻能量高市内阁强化安保能量致重于与美国安全协作一方面加强第一岛链防卫部署推进自卫队与驻日美军指管作战整合扩大在南西诸岛周边军事存在另一方面以美日同盟为主轴加大与南韩 菲律宾 澳大利亚协同行动 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2580.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2594.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
與東南亞國家協建海事能量以及推進與歐盟北約協作推展區域友盟集體防衛網絡強化嚇阻能力三 國際體認台海核穩重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2596.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2619.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
中共不滿日本首相國會答詢內容展開複合式施壓並形塑日本外交官在北京俯首聽訊形象 引發國際關注中共對外脅迫行徑 凸顯台灣有事並非僅為日中雙邊爭議 實以牽動 因害區域安全及國際秩序穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2619.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2645.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
国际社会已更加警觉中共扩权威胁民主友盟亦持续公开宣誓确保台海和平稳定维护自由开放印太之重要性至结语中共以军事 亏待 经济及外交胁迫手段企图片面挑战区域现状破坏区域和平与稳定我国更需参与国际友盟网络 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2646.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2653.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
強化戰略溝通及合作共為印太及台海安全秩序本局將續掌收 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2654.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2681.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
印太安全情勢及日中關係動向根據緊密與國際友盟情報交流合作機先掌握情勢變化以相助政府決策及應變整備提升我國我國家安全韌性及能量以上報告敬請大會大院委員先進不定指導並持續對本局工作給予大力支持謝謝謝謝副局長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2682.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2702.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們接下來開始進行詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記那如果本會同仁有臨時提案請在10點半以前提出我們在11點左右是會議的情況來進行處理首先進行詢答委員是陳穩康委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2713.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2718.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
主席 有請外交部次長以及國安局副局長兩位來 兩位請 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2728.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2745.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
两位首长好这个大家都承受了这个很大的压力面对国际动态局势的变化那么听取了今天双方有一些很深入的报告我这边提出一个建言第一个我们跟日方的沟通 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2746.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2763.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
不要用台湾有势用台海有势台海是一个怎么讲一个是泛战略性的议题就说台海有势是中共出招台湾有势对中共来讲是外力介入所以用台海有势台海的范畴没有明确的定义 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2764.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2785.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
但是台湾有事就变成属于管辖权主权问题就特别复杂了所以第一个用台海有事当台海有事的时候它会链接到南海东海甚至到朝鲜半岛台湾海峡每天通过的货柜运输量占全球的25% |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2787.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2792.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那么这个经济的量在海线交通上占全球的15% |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2796.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2822.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
台海有事 中国大陆也有事为什么呢中国大陆在长江外面的阳山港舟山群岛除了战略除油以外阳山港是全世界最大的货柜码头它一个阳山港的吞吐量超过美国所有港口的总和一年进出的货柜4730万个货柜 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2825.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2850.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
这个货柜又占了中国大陆吞吐量进口40%台海占全球25%这个25%里面有到台湾有到日本到韩国到中国大陆但中国大陆又占了进口的40%这个支持它的一带一路如果台海有事中国的一带一路也受损所以用这种方式来函结没有赢家 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2851.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2871.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
如果起冲突大家都是输家所以要维持区域性的和平对等跟友善的盟邦对话这是很重要的另外就是说我想两个单位除了看了中方的威责恐吓的言辞以外还有日本的论述以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2873.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2899.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我们对这个对话过程还有中间谈话的过程除了文件内容以外请问两单位有没有对这个政治思想或者是心理学去判断他们谈话的心态我给您看一下这个照片国际谈判除了事后分析这个谈话的内容以外聚焦四个重点眼神方向 嘴部表情 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2900.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2927.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
脸部表情嘴角的示意肢体的距离你看左边上面这个习大大在看这个高市首相的时候我看你怎么说那高市首相是顾左右言他一个是用硬实力去压对方一个是说我有软实力你在看右下角这个图你看这个川普总统说我看你说什么那 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2928.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2941.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個高市首相是說你想聽什麼因為川普總統是說我用銳實力但是首相說我有韌實力所以在這種國際情勢中間政治是在務虛 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2942.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2968.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
产业经济是要务实国家力量是靠整合最后是要发挥任实力今天这个谈提到了日本在日本政府在2022年修订了保安三文件安保三文件第一个国家安全保障战略它的英文版就是国家安全战略national security strategy然后国家防卫战略 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2970.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2997.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
防卫力量准备计划这三个跟美国实际上1986年的高尼法案是一样的美国有国家安全战略然后有国防战略美国在2017年把它的四年期国防总检取消了QDR取消了改成四年发行一本国家安全战略然后军事战略我们国家我一直本席一直在强烈建议我们政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2999.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3012.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
国家安全法是反渗透防止别人对我们的内部破坏跟国家安全战略毫无关联国家安全战略最主要是整体国家利益做跨部会整合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3013.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3031.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
表述最主要是基于你的国家安全战略对于你的国家核心利益外国政府有一个明确的了解这个我们在任何场合都建议我们政府在这个任内一定要推出我们的国家安全战略那我们目前还在学习美国的QDR |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3032.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3055.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
从上一个版本43页对国家安全战略里面的言辞只有1.5页4年后今年出的版本变成59页了对国防讲了大概4页国防报告书也增加了从4页变6页但是这个相对跟我们的友邦友好国家跟日本比起来差太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3056.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3075.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
日本有韩国有这个当然美国是原企英国澳洲都有所以我们这个方面一定要有一个发展出的战略不然呢就说跨部会的协商就会产现出弱点那我请教一下这个自由开放印太是哪一年开始的FOIP这没关系啊这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3087.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3096.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
习近平在2013年启动了一个他的所谓的大战略就是一带一路原来叫OBOR后来叫BRI |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3098.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3125.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那美国在川普总统在2017年就启动了自由开放印太作为对应但是这个FIP完了以后他觉得不够他又成立一个亚太经济机构就是IPAF那都是有对应性的东西那从这个结果我们去看下一张我们对所有的论述就是日方的立场日本的态度日方解义他的意涵 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3126.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3148.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
来看中国大陆它的立场 它的态度 它的行动这是分析的方法论我们通常都是写一篇报告就是有点像战斗文学但是没有结构性的分析这个图你可以看到日国人的态度他认为国家存亡及经济发展的关键在台海安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3149.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3174.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
台海不要讲台湾如果台湾的贸易经济受损是全世界都受伤因为你的晶圆进口输出料配件输出你的电力中断所以用台海取代台湾问题这是一个比较好的比较宽容的方法跟所有的友邦接触中国大陆至于他不容外界干涉他这个讲话我们看看就好再看下一张 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3177.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3205.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
这个日向高市它的安保东西修正的东西这就是我刚刚提出的我们要建议我们的政府在这个任内一定要公布我们的国家安全战略那才有国防战略那要把QDR四年期总减改成国防战略最后才是你的军事战略那提升GDP我们每个国家的总和不一样那有自己的因素这里面有美方的反应有中方的反应 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3208.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3217.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
最后就是讲到第一岛链是拒止中共军事向外扩张的一个重要防线美日安保条约是必要的军事合作法规 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3218.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3246.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們中華民國在台灣是不能缺席的地緣戰略的樞紐但是高市對這個話講出來有什麼影響比較加劇了中日之間的猜疑增添了美國大國競爭中的變數也牽動了台海和平穩定的複雜程度所以我們的一個回補修正的建議就是說不提台灣問題而用台海問題是比較容易解套的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3247.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3274.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
另外一个就是说封锁台海是一个意识上的名词它并没有blockade zone的范围涵盖所以说它可能用的是cursive quarantine用微折的这个临检它不需要封锁了因为现在每一条船根据这个IMO的你的这个要求都有你的国旗你的数码装载从哪到哪都可以知道所以在海上要拦检是很容易根本不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3275.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3303.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
宣布的封锁所以我们的方法做到和平发展的国家目标以及国际社会的共同期待原则和平必战战备胜战而且要能战止战那做法就是国防民生合一维持两岸对话交流参与国际有盟的机遇我拿这些东西作为像这个次长跟副局长做一个建言我看看是不是请教一下这个次长您给我们一些回应 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3310.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3338.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
報告委員我想你的說法跟我其實是我的說法跟你都一直很類似的我去歐洲在談的我現在其實都不是談說幫忙台灣而是怎麼樣台海的和平穩定安全是大家共同的利益所以大家要盡力去維護台灣的共同利益因為就國際關係就外交上的現實他們為什麼要幫我們有時候也講說沒有那個理由所以共同維護台海利益就是符合那個委員講的我一直說 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3338.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3361.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
朝著方走謝謝委員的建議謝謝副局長這邊您謝謝委員那剛委員提的這個觀點很感謝委員提出來的指導事實上我們看到國際聲稱很多包括美國歐盟日本相關的美盟國家都強調台海和平的穩定跟至關重要至關國際的一個重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3361.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3384.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以這個部分是符合現在的一個趨勢也把台海穩定相對保障了我們台灣的安全所以這個部分後續我們會按照這樣的一個論述來去做密切的觀察國際情勢的變化 謝謝委員指導謝謝 大家共同努力 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳漢委員請回 兩位請回接下來進行巡禮委員羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3394.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3407.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
謝謝主席 有請國安局張副局長好 副局長請你回應之後很忙喔好 歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3409.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3426.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
副局長好 我先回答一下陳永康委員剛才所提到的FOIPFOIP是安倍首相在2016年的時候所提出來的地緣政治戰略的一個概念剛剛好像兩位都沒有回答OK 好 我們回到今天的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3428.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3446.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
剛剛的報告對於日本借制定和平安全法制跟修改安保三文件持續提升鶴族跟應酬能力的整個時間序跟修正的過程是講得非常的清楚我們大約再來回顧一下2015年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3450.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3475.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
安倍首相他的內閣就提出了平和安全法制然後引進了純利為基事態的概念容許日本在極端情況之下行使集體的自衛權2022年的時候安保三文件修訂了首次把台海和平寫進日本最高層級的戰略2023年到2025年一直到現在日本開始進行部署跟民防 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3480.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3505.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
民防政策的調整這個部分可能後面我還會跟副局長來做一個討論再來2025年10月高市內閣上台之後基於中國還有俄國跟北韓的軍事壓力所以宣誓要強化防衛跟啟動安保三文件的改定而且這三文件的改定原先預定是在2027年完成它現在要提早的2026年就要來完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3507.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3522.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們現在回到剛剛在報告裡面一直有提到所謂台灣有事這件事情高市在11月7號的時候接受在野黨委員的答詢的時候有提到台灣有事的情境 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3522.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3551.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那剛剛我有看到報告這是外交部所提到的他就說現在就是因為提到是個案的問題台灣有事就提到個案的問題其實我剛剛還蠻讚同陳永康委員所提到的如果用台海有事的話可能比較不會觸動中國的這個敏感的這個神經因為他特別提到這個個案所以中國整個人就跳起來了不過我們來看這個這個高市首相他提到的其實他並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3552.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3557.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
跳脫這個平和安全法治的這個所謂的這個純利危機事態的這個概念他其實就是說如果說因為這個台海發生了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3568.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3575.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
戰爭或者是說遭受到中國的武力的威脅然後呢進而構成日本的存亡危機事態日本是可以行使集體自衛權是剛才我們所提到的2015年的時候其實就已經提出了這個概念所以他其實他整個言論其實並沒有脫離這個概念所以他講的這些的話其實做過民調日本的媒體曾經做過這個民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3593.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3614.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
高市的內閣現在支持他的這個有高達72%而且56%的受訪者對高市內閣對中國的態度是表示肯定的那當然中國是非常的跳腳甚至呢提出了斬首說那現在呢他利用這個透過旅遊啊輿論跟這個經貿等等都對日本提出了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3615.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3620.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
强烈的抗议再来的话我想请问国安局像除了刚刚我们所提到的日本要强化防卫然后要提早推动安保三文件的修订另外我们还有特别留意今年三月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3637.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3647.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
日本政府他首度公布一項計劃他說如果台海局勢發生衝突的時候日本政府將動員包含了自衛隊 海上保安廳船隻還有民間渡輪跟飛機在6天之內要撤離12萬沖繩仙島群島的居民跟觀光客 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3661.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3673.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
前往九州及山口縣等地安置而且這個計畫預計會在明年的四月份來實施演練再來日本政府他還會進一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3675.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3693.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
研議有關高齡長者住院病患的支援措施預計2026年制定基本的這個基本的這個要領等等那好那相較於日本的這麼的憂心我們如何看待這件事情他們好像連這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3695.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3721.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
對於我們不要說台灣有事好了對台海的這危機他們有做了這些的動作那我們國安局如何在評估就是說日本對於這個台海危機是不是非常的有心因為他們已經有了這些的部署的動作了是跟委員報告首先委員提到第一點就日本今年3月發布了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3723.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3727.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
民防避難計畫就我們了解這是日本在 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3729.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3753.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
國家安全保障戰略裡面有明定的它有明定就應該盡快制定沖繩群島跟仙島諸島它的一個居民的避難計畫所以我想針對日本政府針對它國內的安全需要去明定這些計畫這個我們表示尊重我們不在本局可能不合適去公開臆測日本政府的一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3754.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3768.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那另外一個就是高市第二個問題委員提到就是說高市內閣上台以後呢多次強調要修改修訂這個安保三文件那我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3770.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3799.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
高斯内阁其实有强调是基于一些区域安全形势的变化包含中共包含俄国包含北韩的威侠加剧他们希望透过修改这些安保文件来提升他们防卫的能量我想这个防卫能量是基于在跟美国充分的协作还有跟美盟在印太美盟之间的加防协作来共同维护区域的安全我想是朝着这方面在做进行 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3799.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3799.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3801.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3829.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
至於委員第三個問題就是這次中日風波會不會造成灰色地帶的衝突加劇目前我們看到中共的反應目前是以幾個面向第一個就是外交面向包括透過外交部 國台辦 國防部等等陸續的發表東核言論以外主要還是透過經濟脅迫包括剛剛提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3831.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3855.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
終止已經恢復日水產品的進口還有發布旅遊跟求學赴日旅遊求學的警示等等這些動作救揮帶軍師的部分我們看到目前沒有明顯的一個增強的趨勢大概都還是在例行性的一個範圍裡面包括最近有所謂開設在 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3858.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3867.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
在江蘇北部開設兩個作戰管制區就是射擊管制區其實那是一個例行性的射擊訓練並沒有特別的現象發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3873.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3888.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
近期也在渤海那個地方大連西南開設一個禁航區那個禁航區事實上也是一個例行常態開設大概兩個禮拜會開設一次大巴是做武器租源的測試所以目前我們看來 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3889.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3904.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
到目前為止沒有看到這些軍事也好或輝帶的這些微破的一個具體的升級的趨勢但我們也不排除後續會有一些變化所以本局會持續的關注這些情勢的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3905.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3919.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
OK 副局長跳得很快我本來先問第一題 第二 第三題結果你就自己把一 二 三題給回答了我本來想說第一題可以聽得更多可是國安局居然就說這個部分你們不便來做這個評論可是我們今天有看到一個報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3921.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3948.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
日本甚至要計畫在距離台灣最近的漁納國島要來設置飛彈部隊我想這種種的一切其實就像我剛才所提到的日本對於台海的衝突其實是未來可能會發生衝突這件事情應該是抱持著非常憂心的一個從它種種的部署我們可以看出一些他們有憂心的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3948.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3963.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那當然台海的這個核穩是,我在想是應該是印太地區大家所期待的,當然取決於這個中國的這個態度。台灣人本身也是希望說台海能夠核穩,能夠維護,共同來維護我們區域的這個安全。 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3968.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3979.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
剛剛副局長有提到到目前為止中日雖然發生了外交的風波可是還沒有跡象看到說有其他所謂軍事灰色地帶的衝突有增溫的現象看起來中國到目前為止可能是用經濟、用旅遊等等來做一個制裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3990.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4018.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
到目前為止都還沒有看到灰色地帶的衝突發生不過這個部分的話台灣基於第一島鏈的一個很重要的一議員來講的話我在想這部分也是我們中日的外交風波應該也是要台灣要特別留意的一個地方謝謝國安局 謝謝副局長 謝謝羅美玲委員 請回接下來進行巡達委員 陳俊宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4032.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4036.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好 謝謝昭偉 我們有請外交部吳政次來 吳次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4042.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4071.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 次長早好 次長我們看到這個高市首相在上任後這一個月來不斷延續先前友台的立場那也承襲了過往這個安倍首相他的路線重振日本在印太戰略當中一個核心的地位那也提到更明確的一個政策立場來因應威權主義國家在區域當中日益增強的這個威脅還有影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4072.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4086.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
近期備受關注的台灣有事說則是延續了安倍首相在2021年提出的相關的論述同樣的論述不但仍然符合區域的局勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4088.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4107.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
更看到中國表現出比先前更強烈的一個反應據報導指出中國的駐聯合國代表傅聰已經在上週五致函給聯合國的秘書長就相關的言論闡明中國政府的一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4108.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4125.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
信中不但聲稱高市首相的言論嚴重違反國際法更表示必要的時候會行使聯合國的憲章和國際法賦予的自衛權和堅定的捍衛國家主權和領土的完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4126.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4143.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
但是在我們觀察到目前為止除了美國國務院對日本的聲援外國際社會至少比較少有反應或表態而次長您上週也到歐洲參加了柏林安全會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4144.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4162.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
就您所了解國際社會是否會理解並且認同高市首相的台灣有事說先前我們採取的是觀望和沉默的反應對台灣來說到底是利或是弊報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4165.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4189.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
高市首相講的就是11月7號啦我11月11號去歐洲去歐盟然後去柏林我覺得一般來講對於歐洲而言其實就如同剛才我提到就是說不是說幫助台灣或幫助誰啦台灣海峽的穩定現在是大家非常重要的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4191.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4200.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那裡面跑完就是說有太多的商船都要經過台灣海峽那歐洲外交上當然都不是火上加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4201.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4229.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那所以我的感覺是怎樣一定要從其他方面去觀察各國的反應那我們就從G20最近高市去參加我們可以看到高市跟那義大利的手下Meloni非常熱烈的擁抱從這方面我們可以看到其實歐洲國家絕對是要降低可是降低那個風險可是對於中國的那個總領事在日本發言這麼激烈發言我想大家都是非常不以為然 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4229.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4246.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以我有提到一些私下談話有人講說像這樣情形是要立即召回可是立即召回也是會升高外交的那個那個對立嘛所以我們看到目前為止是沒有這樣的情形可是我覺得那個氣氛是怎樣台海的穩定絕對是最重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4246.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4268.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
目前在這個地方 極力擴張軍備的不是日本 而是中國所以我是感覺就是說對我們來講 遇到我們有越多的朋友一定是越好日本 歐洲跟美國 我自己這樣的感覺對於台海穩定這個共同力的力量是越來越強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4269.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4281.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那這個利益正好就是我們台灣現在也要維護台海的安全穩定維護自由民主的利益是一致的所以在這方面我是看到一個全世界的一致性 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4283.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4300.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那這次這個高市首相只是延續既定的一個立場反映地緣政治的現實就遭到中國這麼強烈的報復那基於台日之間的這個友誼我們理應有實際作為來支持日本像是在社群上 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4301.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4320.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們聲援鼓勵國人到日本旅遊或是支持水產等等但是我們對於所謂台灣有事的事態是否有充分的理解和共識就如同我們外交部的業務報告當中指出實務上所謂台灣有事牽涉的範圍及 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4321.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4335.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
階段盛廣那日本會就實際的這個情況中和來考量而我們因為和日本之間沒有制度性和同盟的這個關係也會基於我們國家安全的這個考量來做出相關的這個因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4336.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4351.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那倘若接下來台灣和日本要從友好關係邁向安全同盟的關係對此我們外交部是否有實際的規劃或作為來增進台日之間對於台灣友事共同因應的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4352.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4368.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
報告委員我以外交部的立場以及國際縣市來講實質跟盟邦跟日本來維護共同的利益共同利益跟台灣海峽的穩定安全我想是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4369.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4374.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
一個安全條約的建立以目前中國的立場我覺得不見得是 我說簽一個正式的安全條約不見得是最好的方法我舉個例子 烏克蘭在1994年跟美國跟英國跟蘇聯 那個時候蘇聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4390.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4393.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
簽訂了一個和平安全條約保障烏克蘭的安全因為那時候他們放棄了核武這是正式條約2004年跟中國也簽了一個維護和平的安全條約因為他們加入中國的一帶一路有世界四大強權的條約安全保障可是他仍然被侵略了 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4416.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4429.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
實質進行跟其他盟邦的安全合作我想目前是比較務實的一個做法外交部在這方面我們也努力跟日本求這方面來做至於正式條約的簽訂我想目前我們並沒有這樣的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4436.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4440.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
市長你還漏掉一個中國跟香港的50年不變對 沒有錯香港的民主本來是一個國際安全條約的保障是中國跟英國在1996年簽的但是因為世人認為香港是中國一部分你一旦被視為是中國的國內事務的家務事任何國際安全條約都保障不了所以我們外交部的做法是絕對避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4465.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4479.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
讓世界各國認為台灣是中國的國內事務或家務事務接下來我想以日本最西端也是最南端的與那國島來和市長您做一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4480.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4507.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
在這個高市首相先生的這個談話當中他也曾經以這個與那國島只距離台灣的距離只有110公里為例那以此說明台灣有事必然會牽動到日本的一個相關的安全那這一座島與人口總共有1600多人在天氣晴朗的時候甚至從宜蘭的蘇澳就能用肉眼看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4508.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4512.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
日本去年因應台灣有事擬定針對沖繩12萬居民的撤離計畫與國島同樣具有高度的戰略意涵 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4519.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4547.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
日本自衛隊自從2016年進駐160人的沿岸監視隊後來又進駐了電戰部隊未來還預計部署飛彈等等我們也看到防衛大臣小泉進次郎在昨天到與那國島視察同時試圖爭取地方的支持以推動後續的基地還有裝備的相關部署我想請教次長就是從與那國島的位置來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4549.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4555.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
它對於美日台之間的安保有何重要性那我們是否應該建立常態的對話或協調的相關機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4559.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4588.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我想日本是個主權獨立的國家日本對於保護自己領土的安全有權利做他所要做的所有事情當然這個條件不能威脅到其他國家就這一點 雲納國島因為離台灣很近日本強化在上面的軍事設施我認為基本上是有幫助於維護台海的安全所以我們當然是對於這樣的事情 我們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4588.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4609.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
是對我們的國家利益事實上是有幫忙的因為日本對台灣基本上是沒有領土的聲張跟敵意的那對於跟日本是否要進行這樣的對話我想跟日本各方面的對話一直在進行當中因為日本現在被我們視為是like-minded country就是理念相近國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4610.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4623.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那美國跟日本就台海的安全當然我們希望跟兩國要進行充分的合作讓我們這個地區的自由和平民主可以繼續維持所以對話我們一定是有持續在進行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4625.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4643.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為台灣和雲南國島之間我們有這個地緣性還有歷史因素的相關的情感那在2023年的時候我們當時游錫堃院長也曾經率同中央和地方的首長還有我們觀光及醫療業者前往雲南國島交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4644.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4667.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那希望能夠推動雙方觀光和直航的相關開放不過後續似乎沒有太大的進展那除了島上的這個設施量能問題外似乎也和軍事部署有些關係我們從近期的這個新聞得知由於島上面臨沒有醫生進駐也缺乏藥劑師的這個醫療困境那對於島民的日常需求可能相當不便 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4668.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4694.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
既然今年已經有基隆到石垣島的航班作為先例那我想請教次長我們是不是應該加強和與那國島往來能否促進民生物資還有醫療物資的建立流通管道在觀光交流上順利推動直航有沒有可能我想我們樂觀其成你就四個字而已我們樂觀其成那你也太摘要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4695.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4718.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
希望我回答我可以再說明一下我想我們的在對於協助友好鄰國的有關人道還有各項的文化交流醫療我們覺得我們一定會這樣做我舉個例子我們太平島有沒有在其實離我們非常遠我們在那邊的許多設施都是在協助菲律賓跟越南可能會有困難的難民 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4720.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4737.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以台灣透過像這樣的一個人道醫療的協助來促進跟我們友好國家的關係我想這就是我們外交部我們政府一貫的政策 謝謝好 以上 謝謝陳俊宇委員 次長請回好 接下來進行詢問的委員是黃仁委員謝謝主席 有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4750.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4751.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
市長請委員好市長好現在就是有關於我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4763.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4786.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
日本的高市首相目前的言論造成國際的紛擾及國內的不安我想請教一下有關於台灣有事構成日本的存亡危機事態的說法涉及到日本在台海的問題上可以行使集體的自衛權 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4788.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4804.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
的條約和時機高市首相的說法不只是針對中國大陸直接對台動武要擴大到中國大陸以戰爭目的封鎖台灣日本也不排除行使集體的自衛權那次 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4810.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4819.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
賴總統以吃日本隨常表達支持日本你認為日本議論怎麼看待這個事件你怎麼樣的一個看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4823.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4839.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我看到的是日本語論對於高市的說法的支持度是增加的我講日本 日本的語論我看到的數字是已經增加到80%以上具體回答說日本國民的反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4841.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4863.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那你覺得賴總統吃這個日本的水產他這個態度是表達支持日本那你的看法呢中華民國台灣的國家利益有很重要一點是台海地區的和平穩定安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4864.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4886.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那中華民國台灣的一個很重要的國家利益其實這不是現在才開始我相信是從你針對回答我的問題對那我現在就是要回答委員的問題就是說跟日本保持友好這是我們1949年來一直就是這樣歷任總統我們跟日本都是要維持友好的國家利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4887.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4914.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以這下任何動作來維持跟日本的友好關係我想這都是必要的我想我們兩個都要面向我們跟對岸一樣的態度友好的態度跟日本一樣友好的態度本來就應該要有這種態度那日本外務省有沒有經由任何管道表示感謝賴總統吃日本的水產台灣媒體報導回台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4917.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4938.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這些不管是在電車 公車在日本的電車公車包含街頭曝光經由台灣媒體報導回台灣這些照片是我國刊登的嗎還是總統府出現以及外交部出現 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4940.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4952.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
再跟委員報告一次就是說外務省是否有表達我想這一點我並不清楚我現在就回答你了這個感覺上 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4955.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4971.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
好像出口變什麼內銷的一個廣告那日本並沒有那麼熱烈啊是國內大內宣嘛大內宣總統吃日本水產的這樣的一個廣告嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4972.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4984.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所以我們講一個日本包含輿論媒體和政府對依賴總統吃日本的水產的這件事情的反應也沒有那麼強烈嘛所以在有支持的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4986.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5014.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
主要還是中立表述其外交向生顯然賴政府這種這波操作在台灣內部的這個宣導效果比在日本更大那另外就是本席從賴總統的表演和政府的反應看來我們似乎很高興日本將台灣納入他的集體自衛權的範圍那自衛權包含個別和集體 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5015.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5040.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
雖然在聯合國憲章在第51條赋予所有國家自然權利但是大多數國家行使集體自衛權還是要透過軍事同盟條約來確立義務關係行使條件和範圍請問一下次長 既然高市首相表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5041.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5060.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
台灣就是日本集體自衛權的行使範圍我國政府也樂見於此外交部是否有意藉此機會向日本尋求軍事同盟簽訂同盟條約駐日單位有沒有應作 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5062.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5078.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
你回答報告員 降低衝突仍然是最重要的最近有一位中國記者在聯合國詢問了聯合國發言人Stefan他的一個回應其實他只要重提2758號重提那樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5080.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5103.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
聯合國的回答也是說降低衝突是聯合國最重要的一個目的所以我想我們不管跟日本跟歐洲其實我這次去歐洲大家的反應就是要降低衝突所以剛才委員特別提到吃日本料理我們台灣人百分之百喜歡吃日本料理既然日本沒有反應那我們就把它視為正常其實我們不必誇張 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5104.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5126.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那目前台灣並沒有尋求跟日本簽訂正式的軍事同盟這樣的一個做法因為簽訂這樣的不一定會有幫忙你們既然都熱見移植對高市這個首相的這樣的一個態勢跟態度我們是不是剛好藉此機會來尋求這個所謂的軍事同盟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5127.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5154.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
或是簽訂同盟條約啊是不是那對於我們台灣國土多一份保障嘛報告委員我剛才其實有回答過尋求簽訂正式軍事同盟並不一定是保障安全最好的方法烏克蘭就是最好的例子他有四國目前世界上最強大的四國美國 俄國既然我們都已經表達友好關係我想我們藉此機會跟日本來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5155.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5177.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這些軍事同盟條約或者是這些盟友條約嘛所以進一步對我們台海 台灣的保障嘛所以這個就是你要回答就是對於國內既然我們樂見於此那是不是我們就可以藉此機會來尋求這樣的一個同盟條約嘛這是我的本席的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5178.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5202.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好不好 謝謝委員 我們可以做這樣的那更進一步齁 集體自衛權是涉及到是國家那但是日本首相在法理上是不承認我國的國家 國家地位那外交部是否藉此機會尋求在日本的法理上承認中華民國的國家地位有在進行這樣的一個想法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5204.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5218.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
報告委員長期而言尋求中華民國正常的國家地位廣泛為世界各國承認這絕對是外交部非常高的目標那以現在中國習近平主政下的中國我們現在反而是尋求中華民國的穩定安全和平 民衛得以捍衛這是最重要的一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5229.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5256.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
當然很多目標是必須要時間的所以長期而言甚至中長期而言尋求我們的國家中華民國正常的國家地位被世界全面承認這絕對是我們全力以赴一定遵照委員的指示去做因為你們執政太久了但是進度如何我們大家國內都看得到所以你們要檢討跟努力另外就是以我們縱觀來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5257.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5278.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們以地緣政治和歷史的角度你認為中國大陸政府對於日本高市首相關於台灣有事構成日本存亡危機事態的說法反應是否過於激烈因為本席問題特別提到地緣政治和歷史角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5279.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5294.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
主要是因為整件事情之所以先然踏脫那重點其實不是日本支持台灣而是高市首相的言論等同於直接表明日本將不受 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5295.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5316.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
日本和平宪法的耶稣而是日本作为二战的发起国及战败国这番言论牵动到整个东南亚和平格局的改变所以这个就是我们今天讨论的重点我们以地缘政治和历史的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5317.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5330.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
日本應該要有所言論上要有所保守不要刺激到兩岸之間跟我們台灣的台海的緊張的關係次長你回答這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5332.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5347.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
國安委員我作為中華民國的外交部次長我不宜去評論日本首相的一個言論只要沒有傷害到中華民國的外交關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5348.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5372.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那我這次去再強調一遍就是說我這次去都是所謂的理念相近國家都是支持自由民主的那基本上我在歐洲得到的反應確實中國的反應過於激烈中國在於日本所說的所以你現在已經承認日本的言論 高市的言論過於激烈嘛這是一個重點吧沒有沒有 我剛才沒有講過我說讓國內知道這樣的一個言論這樣的一個言論對我們國內的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5378.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5398.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好 台海或是國內的情勢 絕對不利的 好 以上好 謝謝市長 你剛才講的是日本嗎我剛才講的是日本 就是那個對於中國啦中國的反應過於激烈 主持要講清楚對 抱歉 外交部如果態度講不清楚是是是 請回 好 謝謝好 來 請在社保委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5404.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5413.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外交部的吳次長以及國安局的張副局長兩位長官一起來 兩位請我的時間很短主席要控制很嚴格請兩位長官盡量的一個要簡短的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5424.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5452.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
美國國會底下的USCC有透露 媒體上都有揭露說台灣 要台灣資助美軍在菲律賓的軍事基地的升級工程簡單來講就是因為菲律賓距離台灣很近那麼台灣出錢修他們的比如說跑道 其他的一些的設施這樣子的話要來幫忙台灣比較方便有沒有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5454.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5482.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
來 國安局副局長快點 來包委員 目前我們有接受到這樣的情訊沒有有沒有我們沒有接到這樣的情訊另外 UACC 認為可以透過FMS就是對外的軍售計畫參與就台灣協助日本 西南諸島的一些類似這個 就工程上的建設有沒有這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5485.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5508.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
包委員 一樣沒有介紹這樣的情訊那個外交部的吳次長要不要回答一下吳次長 有沒有介紹這個東西是有這樣的一個政策建議有啊 怎麼沒有呢有討論啦但是政策建議很多事情是可以討論的我方便到目前並沒有要我請教你它的日本西南諸島有沒有包括真立最大的釣魚台 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5511.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5522.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
日本的西南諸島西南諸島 當然有啊你就看日本的地圖西南下來就掉一條在上面再過來台灣 再過來菲律賓所以那也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5524.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5546.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
就是說美國的國會會建議台灣出錢去幫忙美軍在這些地方的一些的軍事的一些的我們叫什麼叫做supporting的一些一些非軍事的啦但是比如跑道啦這些設施等等的這些軍事用地什麼之類的對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5550.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5564.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我的理解從我年輕念書到現在台灣或中華民國跟美國在各方面合作一直是我們一貫的政策所以這個如果是有這樣的一個做法我想就是我們過去來一貫的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5564.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5574.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
你不覺得我們現在已經被扒了好幾層皮台美關稅我們被要求投資四千億美金然後又來這一條錢這次多少錢你知道嗎也不知道多少錢然後就是要叫我們買單美國在國際上在國外的一些軍事基地的維修要台灣出錢這是哪一門的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5590.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5598.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這個邏輯會不會把台灣真的真的叛逆叛逆加三級難道不是這樣子嗎外交部有答應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5600.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5610.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
剛才提到那是政策建議而已目前為止我想我們跟美國的各方面的合作討論是有助於維護台灣海峽的一個安全市長 這個要說NO啦 不能這樣子啦台灣錢不是大風刮來的啦大家辛辛苦苦 納稅人一點一滴好 我們再看今天的主題像這個是高市長所說到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5624.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5642.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我能不能解讀為他講的就是台灣有事日本會出兵可不可以這樣解釋可不可以市長我想這好像可不可以我想高市首相並沒有這樣直接解釋法所以我們也不用過度去白話文就是這樣或者講不排除出兵這樣說可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5648.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5654.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我想 任何一個主權國家都有權利都用他想要做的事情來維護他自己的國家安全我只能這樣說他講的這個話 我知道很多人這個大家覺得說 喔 這樣兩個大國打起來對台灣很好可是我覺得大家要三思 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5663.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5678.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
多少專家我的經驗沒有任何一次我這次兩個禮拜沒有任何一個國說兩個大國打起來是很好的事情每一個國家包含聯合國發言人的回憶都是怎麼樣希望降低中國跟日本之間的緊張關係你認為兩個國家會不會打起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5680.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5700.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我認為目前不會目前不會 未來也不會是不是因為大陸說要引用聯合國憲章的敵國條款因為他們是戰敗國包括德國 義大利 日本戰敗國他如果有侵犯到別人的話可以直接洞府不需要再經過安理會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5702.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5727.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這個能不能適用報告委員聯合國成立的時候簽署國並不是中華人民共和國而是我們中華民國所以我想他去引用我們中華民國簽的條約好像也不太適當但是這個條款在那裡沒有拿掉雖然沒有廢掉 還留著實質上大家認為沒有意義可是它還留在那裡所以你認為它什麼時候可以降溫兩國什麼時候可以降溫 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5733.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5748.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
報告委員 我想降溫真的是有賴於日本跟中國他們自己彼此的一個外交要做什麼樣的政策因為這個並不是跟我們中華民國不是跟我們中華民國直接的衝突所以我想這還是由日本跟美國來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5750.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5764.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
各國都有在協助想辦法降低兩國的衝突因為真的這個地區的區域和平安全是全世界的共同利益沒有一個國家有利益美國有介入嗎我說最後一句話美國有介入這個事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5768.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5786.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
美國有表達對日本的支持我想國務院跟美國駐日大使是有表達對日本的支持那這兩個都是我們的盟邦可是老公還是不甩啊老公現在拼命在升級啊現在還在往上爬啊這個才令人擔心的最後一小點我覺得賴清德總統太不厚道了利用這一次兵彎馬亂啦這個呼嚕呼嚕沒有預警的開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5798.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5822.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
核輔導核災食品進來了欸沒有經過一定的程序就這樣子可以全面開放欸這個東西你不用回答我時間到了齁這個這個莫名其妙就噴了這叫渾水摸魚啊這是渾水摸魚的行為啊好 謝謝賴世保委員的質詢市長您先請為好 接續我們邀請王定宇召委質詢我回去嘛齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5837.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5858.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
請外交部吳次長還有國安局副局長好 請吳次長及張副局長委員好兩位早我們來立法院備詢如果不在權責範圍內的政策不知道就是不知道 不用硬講 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5860.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5875.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
如果應該要捍衛國家跟政府的真實的事實該說要據理以真這是我期待我們內閣閣員每一位官員應該做的事情我剛才聽到的哪有開放核實 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5877.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5902.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那個是經過幾十萬次檢驗按照之前的所有的流程然後確認沒有問題每一件都抽改成十件抽一百件抽一到最後採取一般的管理流程那個不叫開放那是一個管理的進程如果連這個都沒辦法當下回應的話我會覺得非常遺憾請教兩位第一個高市首相到底做了什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5903.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5928.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
高市首相其實在他們國家非常重要的預算委員會因應因為他們是內閣制在預算委員會的尋答我相信台日前應該很清楚那個是他們最重要的委員會他們的國會議員要提問是要先送你的提問的提綱給常任官你好搞所以是政府的常任文官你好搞讓官員在那邊回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5929.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5950.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
他回答的是如果中國武力侵犯台灣是否會影響日本的存立事態他們認為中國軍事犯台所以台灣在這邊是當事人我們是受害者那日本認為會影響到他們其實最近的例子就有培洛西那一次射了11顆導彈有5顆落在日本的經濟水域 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5951.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5974.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
任何一個國家應該對自己的安全進行review就是審視還有因應所以他們認為這適用他們憲法的集體自衛權他講這個話對錯日本人跟日本政府可以去審視至少到目前為止日本的在野黨全部都支持高市早苗不用收回今天早上最新的消息是維新會也支持不收回那他們就過半了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5976.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6003.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
國會他們是過半支持高市的說法而且維新會在關西地區跟年輕時代是很高的支持度那為什麼中國會跳腳到文攻武嚇加經濟脅迫外交部認為為什麼為什麼中國對這件事情安倍當年說過當然安倍說的時候不是首相現在高市說的是一個首相意見並不是內閣一致性意見這兩個有點不一樣這是首相的政策你們權勢為什麼會這樣跳腳 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6006.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6016.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
因為中國現在對台灣是有野心的嘛在我們看到現在中國他極力擴張他的軍備他現在的海軍艦艇達到400艘遠遠超過美國的300艘他這一次幾乎經濟利益也不顧了他們尋求外交和緩也不顧了為什麼在這個點上 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6031.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6052.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
他們要用文攻武嚇那個台灣都承受過了加經濟脅迫你們的判斷是什麼因為我剛才提到說中國對台灣確實是有野心的不過這樣的野心現在經過我們中華民國外交部的努力跟我們政府的努力其實已經越來越不能被世界接受我剛剛講委員你在Facebook上有分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6053.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6059.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
聯合國Stefan de la Riviere那個發言人中國記者一直要問他要他重申2758號決議裡面那個台灣屬於中國裡面什麼根本沒有寫到台灣的部分對 沒有錯但我要跟委員報告你去找那一篇那位發言人事實上在過去對台灣的發言人是非常不友善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6073.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6087.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
從過去不友善到今天那個發言人以往其實對我們沒有好眼色可是他這次他就不願意你沒有回答問題我還是照順序來來 國安局你們的分析評估為什麼中國這一次會極力的要去阻止這個點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6089.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6113.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
包委員因為中國一直把台灣當成他核心利益中的利益所以他對於有關於台海的這個發言的話格外的重視所以這個部分等於是他們會認為觸犯他的紅線其實他的紅線是什麼剛才之前我聽吳次長的答詢你其實有講過答案對中國來講他希望把台灣變成內部 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6115.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6143.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
內部事務圍起來打外界都不要干涉因為他們視台灣為內部事務你剛才講就像香港一旦成為中國的內部事務外人就難以插手一旦外人難以插手加上日本以他集體自衛權表達介入的可能性歷次的兵推日本光開放機場跟幫助美軍加油中國在兵推 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6144.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6153.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
對盟軍最嚴格的條件對中國最寬鬆的條件並推中國沒有贏過半次中國武力犯台 要欺負台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6155.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6175.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
要糟蹋我們的國家在歷次的兵推不管你看美國CSIS的或者是在日本的前兩年的兵推用最對盟軍最嚴格的條件比方說規定他的這個某些飛彈不能攻擊艦艇比如說台灣的部隊都沒有動作用最嚴格的條件日方只提供加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6177.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6202.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
協助共軍其實犯台在兵退裡面是沒有贏過的所以在這兩個前提下中國當然要跳腳他希望阻止台灣成為國際利益的核心他希望阻止各國民主盟友對台海發生軍事衝突展現積極的態度對他來講他等於是失去武力犯台的機會對台灣來講你們認為這是安全的提升是安全的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6203.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6229.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
包括針對日本等於是高盛內閣這次提的安保的一個要提升他的自衛能量那因為這本於就是美日同盟的一個概念他們是有安保條例的所以其實從這個角度來看有助於美盟在印太地區區域的能力的提升這個區域的穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6229.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6256.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
和平式提升因為大家談這個問題我特別很遺憾我看到我們國內有些人講日本講這個話無視深坡無視深坡的是中國中國用他的軍事力量呈現在第一島鏈從菲律賓去撞人家的海巡艇到台海天天惹事到東海到黃海甚至於到紐澳的外海在今年二月實彈演習是中國的軍力投射 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6257.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6275.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
aggressive他這種挑釁的外擴視的一種侵略行為對整個區域造成不穩定所以這個叫做rebalance如果有各國重視這邊讓他再平衡當然對區域安全有提升幫助很多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6276.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6300.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
不敢公開講說自己是站在中共那一邊就講說日本這個是惹事他忘了如果有一個鄰居一天到晚拿棍子要打你的家人這時候有社區巡守隊有好鄰居有警察出來說不可以這樣子喔這樣的話影響到我們的安寧我們要出來介入的時候你竟然去罵那個巡守隊去罵那個警察罵那個鄰居不敢去譴責那一個惡霸區域惡霸 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6303.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6328.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這已經不是偽善了 這叫為虎作倉你們贊不贊成這種說法我們對於有助於英泰的一個區域安全穩定和平 這我們都非常樂見所以我回到外交部剛有聽到一些問題 我還是很遺憾就是說國內有些像馬英九這樣的人竟然說台灣跟中國是自己的內部的事 外人不要插手這是限台灣於險境 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6330.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6345.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
一旦中國達成這個指標全世界都不要插手了反而是最容易引戰的時候台灣反而最危險而且對後代子孫是非常的不公平不正義台灣是國際的一份子台灣被 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6346.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6374.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
攻擊也好被中國這樣的武力霸凌也好會影響國際利益加上我們提升自我防衛能量這才是真正的和平之道所以我要請教市長剛才有提說這一次賴清德總統吃這個壽司吃個壽司我看那個也就是旋轉壽司那個意見一堆有好朋友說了對安全提升的話不管他是有意或者是出於日本自己國家利益作為鄰居 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6376.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6404.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們發聲做正面的回應日本人我看了所有的主流媒體NHK 讀麥 美日新聞 產經新聞共同社日本電視台 富士電視台 全部都報導啊那一則的瀏覽量有兩千萬啊剛剛有一題你沒有回答你們有下廣告嗎是你們用外宣的嗎我們已經沒有錢做外宣了根本就沒有錢做外宣了嘛我剛才聽到有委員在那邊問你們是不是花錢他忘了錢是被他們自己刪掉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6406.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6435.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
外宣的錢都沒有了竟然還在質疑說這是你們花錢買媒體外銷轉內銷一個鄰國為了台灣安全正被中國霸凌完全站在中國的角度說台灣不要出聲音我們不要跟著惹事這樣以後誰要幫你然後呢明明日本的主流媒體報導兩千多萬次的這個瀏覽還要說我們這個是外銷轉內銷沒有吧你們沒有任何宣傳費用了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6436.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6462.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們現在沒有在做這方面宣傳因為國際自動就會站在我們這邊不要說自動啦我剛才其實台日協可以站出來幫忙講就幫忙講日本的主流媒體都有報導日本民眾的關注度很高啊然後還要再用二戰的戰敗國幫中國去羞辱日本幫中國主張武力可以直接打他恐嚇日本中國這麼做我不意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6463.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6486.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我們在台灣該採取這個立場嗎何況當時聯合國創立一開始過渡時期是這一些發起戰爭國如果再重啟侵略戰爭常任國可以直接軍事發動軍事攻擊不用經過安理會授權後來在50 60年代這些二戰的戰敗國都成為聯合國會員國之後這個過渡條款基本上不用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6487.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6515.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
在1995年聯合國大會當時中國也投贊成表認為這一個條款所謂的可以直接制裁的條款已經過時並不適用我印象當年的表決是第50條第52條這個條款已經作廢不用了那現在中國還拿出來拿出來他也曉得不好意思後來有下架換小粉紅去弄我希望我們台灣的政界不要成為小粉紅去幫忙引用這一條人家在 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6516.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6534.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
日本有權利去檢視他的安全事務而他檢視過程當中如果剛好對我們有利 給予好鄰居我們發個聲幫忙理所當然我們沒有要介入任何糾紛任何認為是台灣或日本引起糾紛的都忘了一個核心命題那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6535.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6559.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
中國才是這整個區域不安的麻煩製造者他才是源頭他不要去軍事想要打台灣想要弄菲律賓想要去弄日本哪有集體自衛權大家那個國防預算的GDP佔比都可以再降一點問題是他每一年7%的成長超過8兆的投資對周邊國家形成壓力源頭不檢討檢討受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6561.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6586.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我相信在歐盟 我最近看歐盟的會議都在講檢討受害者其實是幫獨裁者擦脂抹粉我時間到我提醒外交部跟國安局研究兩個事情 三個事情這一次高士奇真正重要的是在2026年開始啟動對話2026年年底要完成三個安保文件的修正從2015年安倍修改他們的安保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6589.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6604.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這個限於防衛開始採取主動積極那這一次高市早苗啟動的修正有三個方向我們要去思考第一個他要建構一個區域的安全防衛網絡那台灣跟這個網絡其實是核心命題 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6606.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6630.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
卻因為外交關係我們不容易在這裡面有角色我們既是核心命題又陷於地緣政治的局限台灣怎麼樣跟這一個安全網絡建構這牽涉到第一島鏈到第二島鏈第二個事情高市有要檢討所謂的放寬防衛軍備的這個出口以及防衛軍備的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6631.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6656.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那台灣在他旁邊我們長期民間就有工業合作甚至有些軍民通的就是商業跟軍用共用的一些技術日本跟台灣的工業界都有在合作那怎麼樣在這個軍備合作或軍備輸出的情形上對台灣尋求最大利益最後一個是C2的一體化也就是指管系統一體化 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6657.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6683.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
日本已經要跟美國指管系統一體化那台灣要不要指管系統一體化情報分享即時化這個是由印太司令部還有日本還有韓國都有提出來這對台灣國安局跟外交部外交部也許不管指管但國安局應該要跟國防部進行研究以上三個建議給各位 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝黃定宇召委的諮詢那先請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6692.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6695.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好謝謝接下來進行詢問委員徐曉清委員謝謝主席我們有請外交部吳次長來次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6716.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6740.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
市長好 大家都非常關心這個日本首相高市早苗的這個包含台灣有事說跟安保三文件的修正對區域安全可能產生的一個影響那我們現在觀察到的是中日衝突那想要問一下外交部的看法您覺得它會是一個短期化的一個衝突還是說它會演變成長期化的中日衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6744.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6757.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
看指紋定義衝突日本跟中國現在的國家利益不同這個是我們客觀看得出來但衝突不必然代表戰爭對 沒有 我沒有講戰爭我說的是衝突對 就是說有不同的對國家利益不同看法我想在國際關係是非常常見的尤其現在中國對區域產生一個非常具侵略性的各種動作比如說在我們的每年 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6773.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6776.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
去年派了接近4000架飛機對我們進行騷擾這也不是只有對我們對中國也是一樣再來是快速增加他們的國防能力比如說4000你剛剛是講錯國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6789.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6814.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
對中國對於整個區域進行騷擾你剛剛講說對日本也是一樣對日本也是一樣沒錯啊對釣魚台中國也是進行很多的軍事騷擾到時候你回去可以重看一下剛剛因為我有聽到主席有講到說這個主持用法應該要精確一點那請您在回答的時候也特別注意一下好不好你懂我意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6815.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6837.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
中國確實對日本進行軍事騷擾對 您剛講的是中國對日本進行軍事騷擾但因為您剛回答的時候您講成了說對中國也進行了軍事騷擾是這樣子的好 請您繼續抱歉所以目前看到的是中國快速增加他的國防軍備也引起世界各國對這樣的一個情形有非常擔憂 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6838.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6856.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
是那個因為我剛剛問的是說這樣子目前中日的衝突我們評估他是會長期持續化還是說他是會短期之內那有所解決那想問您喔您剛剛的這個說法是比較偏向說會長期的產生這樣子的一個矛盾是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6856.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6863.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
以目前中國在習近平的主政之下確實我看不出這個衝突會有減低的一個趨勢那這個前首相石破茂他提到真正該討論的是避免台灣如何會沒有事就是說要避免台灣有事的情況發生那我想問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6877.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6888.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
針對前首相識破帽的說法呢而外交部除了認同高市早苗首相之外對前首相識破帽的說法外交部也是認同的嗎還是有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6890.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6917.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我基本上我覺得石破茂現在已經不是首相了他可以表達他個人的意見他也是一個意見領袖嘛那我想要問一下因為在等於說在日本政壇裡面那有像高市早苗首相這樣子的說法那當然前首相他的說法是說認為應該要討論的是如何避免台灣有事針對這樣子的一個就是發言的取向跟他的整體的這個想法跟邏輯我想知道的是外交部是同時認同雙方 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6919.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6934.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
還是只認同高市早苗還是說有什麼樣的一個評論或是評估以目前我問更清楚一點就是說該不該要去討論的是如何避免台灣有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6935.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6942.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
如何避免台灣有事也不是要一切都順從中國的要求沒有人剛這樣講石破茂也沒有這樣講我問的是石破茂的言論所以你不能單就這句話我問的是石破茂的說法他說在日本來講除了高市早苗講的台灣有事日本有事之外要討論如何來避免台灣有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6958.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6979.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以您的言下之意是認為說這是石破茂單方面的說法外交部並不認同 是嗎我想石破茂講的是跟法律無關我要講的是怎麼樣 任何一個首相都有權我想高市長講的是要他主要是要捍衛日本的安全那對一個國家領導人我想這是正常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6980.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6993.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
對 我知道你剛剛支持高市早苗的言論在前面很多的委員在質詢的時候都已經講了嘛但他們沒有問到的是前首相石破茂的這個看法跟論點外交部是否認同我問的很簡單就是這個事情啊對於石破茂提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7000.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7026.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
就維護那個台海地區安全這點當然是這是對的那至於以什麼樣方法來做因為我們外交部不需要先去評論一個已經不是外交已經不是首相的一個說法我認為原則上精神上是對的那至於要用什麼樣方法來做如果今天前首相安倍晉三他有對台灣做出非常清楚的發言的話我不認為外交部這時候會告訴我說因為他是前首相所以就不予討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7029.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7051.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為他仍然對在日本來說是有影響力的重要人物所以我只是想要詢問就是說呢當日本你不要講石破茂好了在日本裡面有一些人他認為除了高市早苗的說法之外也應該要討論如何避免台灣有事這樣子的說法外交部繞了這麼多圈圈所以是並不是這麼認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7054.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7069.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
報告委員對於台灣安全有說法的意見領袖會非常多我們外交部其實沒有必要對於每一個都做出回答的評論你這樣講我就清楚了就是不想要回應石破茂再來我要講的是說我們也需要更多的盟友支持台灣前一次的質詢在林佳旺部長來的時候我才詢問過CPTPP的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7080.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7095.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那當時就講到說在12月的時候其實11月現在就已經就已經開始了那當時呢這個我們林佳龍部長他也很有信心的提到呢我們呢有在跟這些國家他說有跟一個國家來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7097.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7124.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那這個呢CPTPP的部長級的會議後的這個報告宣布了烏拉圭阿拉伯聯合大公國菲律賓跟印尼符合奧克蘭原則並且先啟動了烏拉圭的入會程序那其他的三國也就是阿拉伯聯合大公國菲律賓跟印尼會視情況於明年進行過程當中完全沒有提到台灣我想問一下外交部怎麼看這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7127.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7136.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們確實是符合奧克蘭三原則這是事實對啊不要提到我們的這次是在澳洲主辦嗎跟不遠報告一下這個外交的場合不是說符合什麼就一定會獲得什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7144.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7150.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
就像我們中華民國我們中華民國符合主權獨立國家但也不是每一個國家要承認我們我們符合奧克蘭三原則我們確實遇到阻礙這個阻礙就是來自於中國所以這一次CPTPP我們認為沒有公正審查我國的申請案是因為你們認為在這一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7168.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7182.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
CPTPP的討論當中也一樣受到了中國大陸他們的打壓所以在澳洲這一次的CPTPP的部長會議才沒有讓台灣能夠成立入會小組是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7185.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7196.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
確實我想這是我們可以很清楚的去理解到我們之所以沒辦法受到公平的對待絕對是中國的這一次也是是嗎在澳洲在澳洲舉辦的這一次也是嗎應該是我請那個我們那個司長又回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7205.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7226.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
報告委員因為是共識決的部分所以我們外交部也一直在呼籲各國應該是要用公正有效率的方式根據各個國家客觀的條件來予以公正的審查那請問在會議當中有哪一些國家有幫我們提案說要把成立台灣入會小組放進這個討論議程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7229.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7245.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
跟委員報告這個是會員國之間他們內部的審查如果沒有在內部我們是不會了解情節所以我們不清楚有哪一些國家願意支持我們哪一些國家你認為是中共介入所以說跟著中共一起來反對我們是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7246.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7270.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
沒有 我可以很清楚知道日本會支持我們英國會支持我們那他們有提出你們有所了解說他們有在CPTPP的這個會議裡面提出要把台灣列入入會小組放進議程裡嗎我們沒有參與討論所以我們對內部他們如果討論如果支持那你們有向日本了解以及建議或者是希望拜託他們做這樣的請求而對方表達了同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7271.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7275.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們確實有跟日本提出這樣的請求對方有表達同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7276.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7303.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
日本有明確表達是會對我們繼續表達支持但是日本也是一票英國也是一票啊當然啊我是說他們在會議當中有提出要把台灣入會小組放進討論議程這件事情是日本有告訴台灣說他們有做這樣子的舉措還是只是說我們跟他提出建議的時候他們會說好我們會來幫忙就這是兩件不同的事情一個是說態度上面的友好一個是實際上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7304.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7309.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
告訴我們我們已經在CPTPP的議程裡面提出建議要把台灣入會小組放入議程不是表決一票喔是放入議程喔您要聽清楚我的問題我知道在許多場合日本確實會替我們捍衛但我剛才提到說這個並不引然代表整個大會就會通過我沒有問通過的問題因為沒有通過這已經是事實了我詢問的是說您剛講的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7333.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7350.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
他們到底有沒有如實的就像我們的請求在CPTPP的這個會議裡面不是說投票通過是說把台灣成立入會小組這件事情放入議程討論因為我時間不夠有關係是不是可以簡短回答就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7350.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7371.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
報告委員我認為應該是有因為我前陣子有去日本有帶一個船去日本我們有討論過一些就這邊救貨交換知事方給我們回答說他們會在各項場合各項場合有包含這個CPTPP他們給我回答是有但我不在現場我沒辦法跟你講有是沒有但是他們跟我講是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7372.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7400.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那我希望就是說呢關於CPTPP這件事情我們持續來努力一定會 謝謝委員既然 既然今天日本提出了包含高市早苗等提出了對台灣要有所支持那我們希望是能夠有實際的表現而這些表現我們不能只因為說他們是在內部會議所以我們就不知情那我們也應該要透過我們跟日方的管道了解是否確實有在會議當中協助我們來提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7400.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7421.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
而不是說他簡單跟我們這樣談話表達口頭上的支持我們希望能夠看到更實質的表現喔 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝來 各位請回接下來進行勳答委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在黃婕委員 黃婕委員 黃婕委員不在接下來勳答委員是馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7425.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7439.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那個馬文君委員那個詢答結束後我們剛好到11點左右會處理臨時提案謝謝主席麻煩請國安局副局長還有我們外交部次長兩位請委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7447.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7461.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我想今天大家關注的可能就是高市早苗首相他之前的談論現在目前可能也引發中日之間比較緊張的關係其實就很多國家來說並沒有很明確的表態包括美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7469.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7485.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以我們就這個部分來看因為高市首相我想其實他很重要的一個目的還是為了日本本身因為就安保三文件跟非核三原則其實他們一直希望可以做修正尤其是現在在地緣政治上面有不斷的一些緊張的情勢在升溫還有整個國際局勢的情況之下我想他很重要的是希望他的軍隊可以正常化 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7496.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7514.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
因為就目前來看他的軍隊的年齡其實是可能都是偏高只有自衛隊的這樣子的功能另外就是他武器可以輸出可以做出售這個可能也是他們的一個方向另外一個就是非核三原則他們也希望可以改變這個因為這一次在美韓的關稅談判裡面韓國其實他都已經可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7520.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7531.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
得到美國的同意幫他們可能可以製造核潛艦的部分所以我想這個可能是日本很重要的一個自己在整體的軍事發展或者在他的很多的國家防衛的上面其實他想要達到的一個目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7538.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7543.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以就這個部分因為當然我們在區域維持穩定和平這是大家共同想要去努力的一個方向可是當我們看到很多其他周邊國家也好或者世界在對這個部分都不是這麼強力的去做評論的時候我想我們應該也要兼顧我們自己的國家層體安全這樣對不對是 孟委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7568.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7572.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
剛剛委員的分析其實非常精闢事實上我們看到是 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7575.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7600.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
高市首相會提出這樣的一個修改安保三文件主要考量還是在於面對到區域環境安全環境的改變包括中共的一個威脅的迫近還有俄羅斯跟北韓這些傳統日本非常關切的區域的安全的威脅那有建議跟美盟跟美國要加強日本日美的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7603.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7629.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
合作那另外要推動區域的相關美盟在印太區域的有盟的合作他著眼於這樣的強化自衛隊的能量所以去進行這樣的修改但後面他修改的內容我們會持續關注剛剛提到包括配合三原則這個部分事實上內部他們還沒有達到有共識我們會持續密註這個他們在這方面調整後勤的發展畢竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7630.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7655.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這個會影響到整個我們印太地區尤其亞太地區區域安全的一個發展所以這個部分我們本局會持續來關注所以就整個情勢來看因為我想這個可能還會持續一段時間吧就我們剛剛提到的一些相關的判斷所以我們也希望其實在整體的發展上面因為我們也要考量到台灣本身的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7656.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7662.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個才是最大的一個目標方向因為我們看到近期烏克蘭俄烏戰爭已經進行三年九個月那最近其實包括川普總統提出來的和平計畫其實對烏克蘭傷害是很大的所以對於澤倫斯基在做選擇的時候其實也是一個非常艱難的一個抉擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7679.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7702.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就這個狀況所以我們才說其實台灣的安全還有區域的和平才是我們應該要強化的而不是我們在現階段我們可能就有很多的行為動作會去引起不必要的紛爭這個跟示弱或者妥協根本是無關的而是我們要整體的考量就是我們的區域安全還有台灣本身自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7703.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7712.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
在和平在整個這個牽動上面應該要扮演什麼角色這個真的是非常重要所以就這些部分我想今天還有一個我想要請教的因為剛剛還包括外交部剛剛也提到很多可是我們除了這些以外我們今天金融時報有特別提到我們看到他們發布的大概我們在美台的關稅談判裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7731.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7748.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這樣子的一個貿易協定可能已經快要在近期就會宣布那就你們的掌握不管是國安單位也好或者外交部也好就這個部分投資4000億美元這個的目前的一個態勢是怎麼樣就你們掌握的一個方向這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7750.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7765.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這個部分我想應該是我們行政院經貿團隊他們在談判所以這個部分我們要尊重談判團隊他們的一個這個已經不是尊重談判團隊因為這個牽涉非常龐大的甚至動搖國本 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7766.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7781.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
的投資金額還有我們的採購金額因為過去還有包括就是我們國防的支出要高達GDP的5%以上日本 韓國或其他周邊國家或者甚至其他區域的國家其實都還沒有增加到這麼高的額度 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7783.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7790.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以我們看到說這個四千億這個不是只有尊重因為我們看到一路以來其實是黑箱過去在服貿的時候包括鄭麗君副院長她那時候也是反服貿黑箱非常大力在反對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7798.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7805.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以他今天必須要堅持這樣的理念讓所有的國人知道因為今天不是小金額今天也不是一般的談判這個牽涉到我們整體的投資還有我們所有的產業鏈最重要的產業鏈的外移還有我們投資的金額這麼龐大因為我們看到日本承諾5500億美元他佔GDP大概14% |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7823.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7826.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
韓國承諾的是3500億美元佔GDP的20%假設台灣同意4000億美元的投資我們的佔比高達49.5%幾乎一半這個12兆的金額是我們4年的總預算的金額所以對我們來說是非常影響非常深遠而且對後續的發展也影響非常大所以我想這個不是尊重談判辦公室而已這個國安單位有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7854.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7858.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
包委員就是因為這個談判過程經過很多輪的談判我想我們的談判團隊副局長沒關係談判的過程因為現在是沒有沒有揭露沒有公開因為我們也不認同可是如果是4000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7871.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7897.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
美元這樣子的一個投資的金額你們在國安的團隊角色上面的看法是什麼我剛剛講了大家的GDP的占比日本也好 韓國也好 台灣是非常高的這因為還在談判過程當中我們了解到談判團隊包委員 這個假設性問題我想這不是假設性喔因為接連就會公布了如果真的發生的時候是大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7899.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7910.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
在這個談判的過程當中談判團隊是依據我們國家的利益跟產業利益去跟美方去交涉的可以告訴我們可以得到什麼利益嗎可能要由談判團隊專業來評估來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7913.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7930.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個不是談判團隊談判團隊談的是過程我現在說國安團隊對於這個部分其實他所做的平息他的延期如果我們高達GDP快要50%了我們可能要等到這個確定結果我們才能夠比較更精確來做這樣的一個評估他會不會影響就你們的看法會造成什麼影響會造成什麼影響如果這麼高額的這樣的一個投資金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7940.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7958.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我想這個還是就這樣的一個過程因為細節內容就要綜合來看所以光看一個金額或什麼我們如果綜合來看更可悲因為除了投資金額非常大以外我們的國防預算要承諾高達 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7959.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7963.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
GDP的5%然後我們還有農產品的採購高達100億的美元然後還有我們開放整個市場它可能是零關稅而且是依照美國的一個規定跟標準然後我們還有其他之前相關的談判沒有一個對我們台灣是比較有利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7983.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7988.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
結果我們如果談出來還是跟美國日本一樣都是15%頂多不疊加那我們到底得到什麼這樣是合理的嗎國安團隊今天我想我們就這個部分請國安局在後續針對這個部分因為已經快要可能要公佈了嘛這個部分請國安團隊再去做一些評析跟考量然後提供給我們委員會好不好好 委員會來做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8009.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8029.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那另外先請回那就請外交部就剛剛吳院好市長好那就剛剛我們提到的就是如果說我們的條約締結法如果牽涉到現在談判的結果大家不能接受或者我們立法院審議不通過的時候會造成什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8032.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8047.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
基本上條例締結法一定要立法院通過我不曉得委員是指哪一項因為我們剛剛提到的有很多的條件如果它真的呈現出來是我們所質疑的或者我們現在不能接受的因為像這樣子投資4千億那個嗎對 投資4千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8049.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8066.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
報告委員 關於投資我想在理念相近國家互相投資這是正常現象比如說輝達現在世界上最大公司也決定來台灣投資Amazon Google Meta都來台灣投資你把這種商業的投資跟我們現在的關稅談判並在一起談這是不恰當的我們現在講的因為他是為了他的商業利益他會做這樣的選擇他並不是因為在談判的過程當中他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8078.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8083.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
互蒙其利所以來台灣投資並不是所以我們現在要講的是如果就這個部分它會對台灣造成很大的影響我剛剛講的沒有一個對台灣是明顯有利的我們的關稅甚至也只是跟美國所以這是屬於互相投資因為台積電也不是只有政府可以我們沒有辦法叫台積電去那邊投資台積電是個私人公司我們政府是其中一部分我說的是4000億包括台積電台積電政府其實是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8107.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8111.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
可以不要同意事實上是可以因為牽涉到國安不是台積電不要同意是政府如果認為牽涉到對整個國家發展安全都有影響的時候政府是可以有角色政府是可以有態度的可是我們現在看到的目前不是這樣所以就這個部分外交部在條約締結法上面因為我們過去在 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8133.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8137.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
在談判的過程當中不管是服貿也好因為之前蕭美琴召委她現在是我們的副總統其實她那時候在委員會她也明確的表態如果我們的人民不同意或者對國家造成太大的影響其實甚至立法院都可以叫她退回重新談判這個部分我們也希望如果對我們影響太大的時候我們應該要有什麼樣的態度外交部跟國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8159.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8182.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
國安局其實必須要事先做有一些相關的因應作為好不好是的 我們絕對照憲法來走憲法 我們有條約締結法你就用條約締結法就好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝 請回 這個不用到憲法了來 請坐好 我們現在處理臨時提案請宣讀第一個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8183.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8205.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
第一案 鑒於中國進行宣布通緝我國現役資資通電軍 新戰大隊等維護國家安全之重要軍方人員此舉構成對我國國家主權的嚴重侵犯與挑釁我國國軍肩負保家衛國 捍衛台灣民主憲政之神聖職責且中國對台灣從不具有任何司法管轄權 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8206.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8228.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
絕不容許中國以其國內法進行長臂管轄中國此惡劣行徑再次證明其為區域安全穩定的麻煩製造者本委員會原對此表達最強烈的譴責並聲援被中國非法通緝之我國人民特此提案提案人委員王定宇 盧美玲 陳俊宇 陳冠廷等委員宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8231.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8242.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
好 謝謝 本席做提案的說明然後待會看各位同仁有沒有意見中國以不合法 不合國際慣例的方式進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8244.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8260.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
在過去這段時間大家只看到我們同樣身為國會議員的沈博洋面對這樣的壓力其實在沈博洋之前就有我們的國軍不管是資通電軍軍情局這個政戰局的新戰大隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8261.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8279.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
面臨同樣的情形那中國對台灣完全沒有管轄權中國用他們自己的政治判斷自己的國內法對我國國民進行這樣的跨境鎮壓是不合法的惡霸的行徑那本先遺憾我們立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8280.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8298.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
韓院長可能看到沈博洋是基於黨派的關係都沒有發出聲援那我們今天在上禮拜通過對沈博洋委員的聲援以及譴責中國案之後我們今天提出對我們的國軍被中國這樣子的跨境鎮壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8299.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8323.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
提出聲援對於中國的惡劣行徑給予嚴厲的譴責而且聲援的對象其實是指我們所有的國人任何一個台灣的人民不管有什麼主張不管是什麼行業中國無權管轄這個與政治立場背景無關與我們國家自己的主權獨立相關以上的提案說明在場委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8326.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8348.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
沒有意見的話我們就照案通過來請宣讀第二案臨時提案第二案鑒於中國長期扭曲1971年10月25日聯合國大會通過的第2758號決議錯誤聲稱該決議支持其所謂一中原則並藉此阻撓台灣參與聯合國及其他國際組織不僅侵害我國人民之國際參與權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8349.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8375.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
亦破壞台海和平穩定現狀為明確駁斥中國錯誤主張並重申我國立場原件請作成以下決議聯合國大會第2758號決議僅處理中國在聯合國的代表權問題權文並未提及台灣與我國無色該決議並未認定台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分更未授權中華人民共和國可在聯合國代表台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8376.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8392.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
亦不等同中國所主張之一中原則此為無可辯駁之事實中華民國臺灣系主權獨立國家與中華人民共和國互不隸屬唯有臺灣的民選政府才能在聯合國等國際組織中代表臺灣人民針對美國政府與國會及州議會澳大利亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8399.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8410.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
參議院及新南威爾斯州議會荷蘭眾議院加拿大眾議院英國夏議院捷克參議院及眾議院外委會比利時聯邦眾議院瓜地馬拉國會馬紹爾群島國會貝里斯參眾議院及波蘭國會波台 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8417.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8427.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
波台國會小組等民主國家中央或地方議會先後以公開聲明或決議明確指出聯大地2758號決議未設台灣地位並駁斥中國之錯誤詮釋表達支持台灣國際參與除教廷力不恰之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8435.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8460.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
其與我國右邦政府亦在聯合國大會、世界衛生大會等多邊場合明確支持台灣獲納入聯合國體系以及歐洲議會、歐盟執委會、對中政策跨國議會聯盟及全美議會交流協會、理事會等國際民主力量所展現之堅定支持立法院外交及國防委員會僅代表台灣人民致以誠摯感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8461.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8473.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
提案人委員王定宇 羅美玲 陳俊宇 陳冠廷等委員宣讀完畢好 謝謝我們本席做提案的說明這是一個早就該處理的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8474.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8489.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
全世界各主要的民主國家從澳洲到歐盟到北美洲甚至於連美國各州的很多州議會都通過2758號決議文無赦台灣而我們遲至今日我們的院會遲遲不願處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8492.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8514.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
甚至於在討論剛才聲援國軍譴責中國以及現在2758號決議文本席也很遺憾的在野黨國民黨民眾黨的委員似乎是不願或者不敢都沒有在現場那也都離開我們的這個會議的現場那2758號決議文大家去google維基百科就好了不用看我們寫的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8516.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8526.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
裡面的文字沒有一句話處理台灣我們所有的人民的代表權它是處理中華人民共和國在中國的代表權問題這是2758號決議文在民國60年代當時通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8532.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8546.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
可是長期以來中國錯誤扭曲的運用2758號決議文創造了一個所謂一中原則或一中政策然後排除了台灣人民參加世界衛生大會世界衛生組織 國際行政組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8549.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8568.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
各項的國際組織都是扭曲錯誤引用的2758號決議文而2758號決議文從澳洲參議院開始各國通過的就是2758號決議文無赦台灣這是台灣國際參與很重要的法理基礎身為人民選出來的國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8569.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8598.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
各國的國會站在真實跟正義那一邊而我們的國會持至今日還沒有通過這個國會的這個大會的決議文所以今天我們在國防外交委員會如同義大利的外交委員會一樣我們提出了這個臨時提案那事實上從開羅宣言波斯坦宣言到2758號決議文台灣的政治歸屬主權歸屬從來就沒有被處理沒有被代表而經過民主化之後從李登輝總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8599.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8628.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統到賴清德總統九任的總統台灣人民一票一票直選做出的選擇證明了一件事情主權在民主權在中華民國的人民主權在台灣的人民身上所以主權是我們自己的所以2758號決議文與台灣無色所以本席基於以上理由提出本臨時提案請問在場同仁有沒有意見或要補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8629.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8644.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
沒有的話我們照案通過 謝謝好 接下來進行詢答的委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在謝龍介委員請進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8661.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8685.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
主席我請外交部來 請吳次長國安局副局長副局長是委員好處長你好委員好關於這個你知道我們台灣喔跟日本的民間的往來是非常平凡 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8691.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8696.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以說台灣的鄉親對日本的印象普遍不錯日本的過去等級跟我們關係也不錯但是李志輝我剛才有聽到你的答案就是說今天你狀況不太好我主席三長兩我給你求情 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8713.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8725.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
他剛才對澳洲回來有失差 讓他體諒一下 抱歉這樣好 這樣剛好需要休息一下沒有 很好 情人很好 抱歉 剛才說錯了 真抱歉這個 卡蘇一般若是國旗首相 在表達他的意思的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8741.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8748.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
如果沒有以台灣有事情做前提 你看中日期間會不會有這樣的衝突我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8754.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8754.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這就是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8776.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8802.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
因為在特朗普總統跟中國大陸一般的談判過程中的狗狗現在並沒有踏破面所以造成整個黨阿阿台所有的見解 大家都猜出比較保留那麼你不知道 記得在兩年前 老總統曾經有說過 要聯合 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8805.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8809.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
幽默的民主國家,他就是在說美國跟日本三星對著中國大陸軍事的威脅力,你覺得還會記嗎?會記嗎?會記的嘛,如果是這樣,日本的思想對著配合我們老總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8826.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8836.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
會現行所以今天來說台灣有事情跟日本有事情不管他在論述的過程中包含什麼如果這樣我們今天可以遞書讀書 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8840.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8847.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我剛才講過現在世界其實不只有日本世界都覺得不可以有戰爭爆發現在一定有烏克蘭還有以色列我知道世界不是日本我告訴你但是日本現在出這個狀況他現在為了要天然他要跟我們社廷說這些話那麼這些話的前提就是老總統曾經有邀請日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8866.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8875.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
結果日本來做溝通 要對付中國大陸 兩年前就是這種意思今天日本跳下來 甚至強調比老總統更加透清我們身為日本的好朋友 你覺得我們有需要在這個方面做強硬的表達嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8888.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8901.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我相信 是不是我們做好的朋友 我們也是一份做好的朋友所以這一份的公判 我覺得他的抽象 再說一次就是他對台海的安全來 我請那個國安局客人比較了解在內部國安會討論裡面 總統有指示針對這個部分 我們要採取必要的共和的言論 入場包委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8918.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8940.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個部分 前面我參與的沒有接過這樣的一個訊息但我們通常也會關心日本情勢的一個發展畢竟這樣一個情勢發展 起因於中共 俄羅斯跟北韓這樣區域安全的威脅所以老總統現在就是要求台灣要保持企業的中間就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8942.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8943.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
接下來進行詢問的委員是林益君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8987.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8997.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
謝謝主席有請國安局副局長副局長請委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8998.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9018.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
副局長好想必你應該非常的清楚美國的美中經濟暨安全檢討的委員會USCC是美國政府的一個獨立機關這個美中經濟安全委員會每年都會發布報告都是美國政府和立法機關重要的施政的參考就在上個禮拜他們發布了年度的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9019.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9030.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
內容多達了733頁其中光是提到台灣的次數不包含目錄的就已經高達1223次現在還在報告的第11章中專門寫了一篇討論台灣問題的專章那針對USCC的年度報告的第4章裡面標題是競爭的實質入口中國與東南亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9043.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9063.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
其中第239頁的建議有提到要加強菲律賓與四方安全對話的合作所以要求指示國務院建立了四方對話的機制這個建議非常的明確就是要讓菲律賓實際參與四方安全對話的運作還有資訊上面的共享 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9064.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9069.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那副局長你認為我們台灣同樣面對了來自中國的各種脅迫還有軍事的威脅台灣的壓力應該沒有比菲律賓小吧所以為什麼台灣從來沒有實際參與到釋放安全對話的這項安全機制的實際的運作甚至USCC這份報告裡面也完全都沒有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9085.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9097.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那富吉爾你認為台灣一直都被排除在外的原因到底是什麼我們和美國現在的關係不是史上最好的時刻嗎我們和美國不是最好的友好同盟嗎那你認為台灣是不是也應該主動爭取實際參與事方安全的對話的運作或至少是成員國的資訊分享呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9105.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9134.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
跟委員報告事實上我們跟國際友盟有很多合作的管道未必就是某某的一個譬如說是四方對話那也很多國家沒有加入但我們政府之間其實跟各國友盟其實都有密切的一個聯繫以情報機關來講我們也有合作管道所以事實上那個合作力度並不亞於這樣的一個合作力度事實上重點在於彼此能夠建立一個協作 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9136.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9163.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
區域聯防的一個概念所以這個部分事實上是有另外的方式我們會從這方面來著手進行所以你的意思是說台灣是不會主動爭取實際參與這個釋放安全的運作當然就是有這樣的機會但是還要看其他國際的情勢還有各國的一個觀點所以就我們角度來講其實我們是用務實的角度去推這樣的一個合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9165.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9172.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那在針對USCC的這份報告第11章裡面有專門討論台灣的問題在針對政策建議上面都是有提到建議美國國會應該指示國務院啟動一項非武器支援服務的對外軍售的項目用以加強美國在台灣周邊的嚇阻的能力然後建議上面有一些具體的作為是要加強美國現在所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9188.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9192.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
整個舉措和機制尤其是美國和菲律賓簽署的加強國防合作協議那美國應該要求台灣要提供資金那請問副局長你認為台灣應該為美國在日本和菲律賓的軍事資產提供資金嗎還有你認不認同台灣應該為美國與菲律賓在呂宋島北方的軍事資產付錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9213.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9228.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
然後就你的軍事專業來看報告裡面建議美國要啟動所謂的非武器資源服務的軍售的項目這些指的又是哪些項目呢對台灣我們有缺乏哪些非武器性的軍事資產呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9230.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9258.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我想這個是對國有這個建議我們其實台灣有很多包括民間產業還有相關有跟這些產業鏈均衡產業鏈的相關的合作這些都可能是一些可以未來可以施作的一個方向那這個這樣的建議我想我們應該會做另外有權責單位會去做審慎的評估去進行推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9259.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9286.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以你認為台灣應該為美國在日本和菲律賓的軍事資產提供資金嗎這個要專業評估啦事實上有很多管道包括我們的企業產業這些也都可以接軌剛剛之前有提到民主產業鏈嘛或飛鴻供應鏈這些都可以整個來整體考量所以報告裡面的就是要啟動所謂的非武器資源服務的軍售項目那指的是又是哪些項目呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9293.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9316.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
包委員因為這個部分我目前沒有非常深入了解所以後續了解以後再跟委員報告那請問像這一個裡面有提到很多跟台灣有關的內容都是基於中國的威脅那其實美國對USCC的其實對台灣的問題是非常重視的那請問副局長你們國安局到底對美國這份報告的內容有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9326.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9335.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
還是你們根本就是沒有掌握如果你們沒有掌握的話這樣起報工作的人力真是令人很憂心 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9339.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9361.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
沒關係 那還是請副局長回去的時候再好好的來看一下研讀一下美國USCC的這份報告因為台灣的專章的結論裡面有一段有提醒我們說要維繫兩岸和平的重要性不然就是會危及台灣的經濟貿易的所以我想說請副局長回去的時候再研讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9365.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9391.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個部分我們同仁是有掌握到但這部分的話我們回去會進一步了解接下來我針對中日衝突的問題再請教一下副局長就是說近期的東亞情勢非常的動盪所以依照國安局最近的情勢分析和判斷你認為目前中日的緊張情況有沒有緩解的趨勢然後是否還在持續的升高中呢雙方爆發軍事衝突的可能性有多高 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9392.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9407.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
目前雙方短期之間的關係可能很難緩解目前但是就日本政府的態度他們是立場是堅定也表示不會收回這個首相的言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9408.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9422.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那也表示政策沒有改變但是他們會尋求溝通現在就看中共在這方面的一個回應目前看起來還是透過外交還有經濟手段持續在做一些恫嚇所以後續我們還要觀察這個情勢的一個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9426.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9449.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
因為近年來我們談論東亞戰略情勢的時候其實常常會提到上海的聯動就是黃海、東海、台海的情勢互相的牽動甚至現在已經加入了南海變成四海聯動也就是發生任何一個地區的事件都很容易直接影響到其他區域的國家如果中日真的爆發了軍事的衝突台灣絕對不可能被置身事外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9450.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9461.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
根據以往的經驗過去國際間軍事衝突的爆發都是在大家無法預料的情況下發生的那目前國安相關單位有沒有針對這種極端的狀況做一些推演呢我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9466.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9493.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
國安團隊我們會配合像政府有一些復安專案相關的一個整體的兵推事實上會把這些情緒情勢的發展都會納入考量那就我們國安局角度來講也會密駐這些情勢的發展然後提供給我們相關權責部門來應處所以是有的是不是對 就是會將這些情勢納入這些整體兵推的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9494.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9518.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好,那我再延續剛才相同的問題啦,反過來說,日本近年來的建軍都是台海可能發生衝突的方向做準備,所以日本明年預計在修正一個安保三文件,同時也會針對防衛裝備移轉三原則進行放寬,甚至也可能會放寬了無核三原則,也就是不擁有、不生產,還有不引進核武器。 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9518.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9524.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
但是這一段時間看來已經有好幾個跡象了暗示日本未來可能會引進核動力潛艦在10月31號日本那個官房的長官也向媒體證實海上自衛隊已經在評估引進核動力潛艦那請問副局長日本如果把無核三原則的不引進拿掉未來日本有沒有可能引進核動力潛艦的技術甚至到美國和日本部署核彈呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9545.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9569.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
請問有無評估這對印太地區政治局勢的影響目前就我們了解日本政府內部還在討論還沒有定案因為看到是南韓已經在跟川普總統討論的時候引取的建造核檢見的一個方案所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9571.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9582.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我們後續也要觀察日本在這方面是不是就非核三原則的調整還有包括它安保三文件的調整狀況我們會來進一步來觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9585.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9588.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
還有一個有關日本修改防衛裝備移轉三原則的部分就是要廢除限制防衛裝備品的出口可是也就是未來日本可能會擴大軍事裝備的出口實際上日本近年來的裝備出口已經有擴大的趨勢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9602.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9627.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那今年7月日本軍售了6艘退役驅逐艦給菲律賓8月獲得澳洲11艘最上級的防艦的訂單所以我這樣看來日本一方面逐漸在放荒法律的授權另一方面也開始加速軍事裝備的出口那請問副局長從目前的區域政治的整個的發展來看未來台灣向日本進口軍事裝備的可能性有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9627.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9654.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這我想應該是我們國防部專業部門會來做評估但事實上就日本這個輸出裝備我們看到有支援像菲律賓 越南等等國家最主要目的是也是在區域的安全的一個聯防所以共同遏止中共在軍力擴張到東海 南海 台海等等所以這個部分我們會持續來做觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9655.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9657.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
因為有一個問題就是台灣未來有計畫可能要繼續徵購愛國者飛彈但是美國因為軍援烏克蘭的關係導致了內部的庫存都不夠了加上美國可能產能也有限現在連美國自己都已經開始向日本購買愛國者飛彈了 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9670.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9696.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以我在想說這個是不是有可能以後直接向日本採購呢是不是給縮短供應鏈的時間比較不容易發生交易延宕的問題呢因為我想對外軍購總是會涉及到國際關係和政治上面的判斷所以國安局是不是要協助國防部讓國防部更能知道該什麼時候向哪一個國家提出軍購需求那國防部跟國安局有沒有這樣存在的溝通機制呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9697.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9717.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我們跟國防部的溝通管道非常暢通經常也會有一些業務聯繫相關的情訊委員關切的部分我們只要掌握的話我們也會分享給國防部做參考好 謝謝林運勳委員 各位請回接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9738.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9747.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
你好 我們先請次長來 次長請委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9747.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9770.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
市長好 市長我先針對歐洲的議題來跟你請教因為現在我們看到最新的有關28點和平方案那在烏克蘭被侵略的一方儘管在遭受這麼多的這種攻擊之後那現在提出來的這個被討論的方案看起來是對烏克蘭不是很有利的一個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9771.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9793.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我先想要請教一下因為這兩天有關於這個文件的訊息很混亂那有些參議員說這是國務卿盧比歐私下有向他們表示說這28點方案是俄羅斯的願望清單那但是主流的媒體CNN BBC等等基本上大家都提出來大概在前面都會說是川普的28條和平方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9794.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9810.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那外交部是否已經有透過駐美代表處或者是其他的管道向美方查證到底這28點的這個清單是不是這一個美方提出來的方案還是有我們提出來這個剛才講到的這些新聞上面有提到的可能是俄羅斯的願望清單 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9812.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9836.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我想第一點這現在只是一個提議而已並不是結論第二點歐洲國家在於反對俄羅斯就發動戰場戰爭的立場真的是非常強烈然後沒有人在歐洲基本上除了非常少數之外跟我們一樣沒有人希望是給予俄羅斯他們是戰勝國的這樣的一個感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9838.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9850.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以反對大國侵略小國這樣的一個感覺是非常清楚的所以引帶而言他們對於第一個他們當然也不希望我們亞太區有戰爭發生那基本上我也感受到非常強烈對台灣的一個支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9859.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9877.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我這麼說好了這28條的和平方案裡面我們仔細再去閱覽之後那是對烏克蘭是不利的他其實基本上是在獎勵基本上在獎勵侵略者我也看到最近有一些評論者在台灣的他們似乎是有一種幸災樂禍的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9878.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9901.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
他們認為說這個烏克蘭早就該接受這樣子的和平方案他們認為說美國沒有辦法好好的去提供這個安全保護然後反而去指責烏克蘭以及歐洲國家他們沒有辦法自主的提供烏克蘭更好的防衛那我在這邊還是要強調烏克蘭其實是在替他不是一個歐洲戰爭而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9902.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9923.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
它是已經跨州的戰爭包含北朝鮮跟中國的直接或者是間接的接入伊朗的直接跟間接的接入它基本上是跟所有的國家都是有關聯性的所以台灣沒有任何的立場在這邊好像跟我們沒關係一樣跟我們當然是會有關係中國正在仔細的審視 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9925.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9940.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
歐洲國家跟美國的每一步那我們作為台灣作為一個民主國家作為一個也面臨到一個世界強國的這種可能會侵略的國家我們當然是要表態我們當然是要支持烏克蘭我們當然是要在我們可以的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9941.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9962.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
包含所有的這個資源不是說未來的重建像現在能夠提供什麼樣的安全上面的資源就必須要提供現在要怎麼樣避免說我們的產品輸入到俄羅斯讓他們成為戰爭機器就要全力去避免包含說我們之前還有一些什麼清油等等這些我們都必須要好好的審視因為中國正在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9963.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9984.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
如果說我們28條這種和平協議這就是他們的和平協議這種和平協議是把他們的主權國家的領土獎勵給侵略國我想這個是全民都要很清楚的了解如果說烏克蘭必須要接受假設啦假設是這一個和平方案我相信他還會在變動因為有很多歐洲國家他勇敢的站出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9985.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9999.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
願意來替烏克蘭做更多那當然這個隨著他們的參與那這樣子的和平的方案當然就是會比較有利烏克蘭但是我們必須要顯示一下自己我們必須要好好的思考說現在台灣能夠做什麼因為如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10000.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10024.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
局部的勝利他們把這個烏克蘭的從東邊的這幾個州他們局部的勝利沒有辦法拿到基輔就可以換取這樣子的和平方案能讓他們得到法理上面擁有這一些他們的戰旅區我覺得這是很令人擔心的中國會從中得到一些啟示他們會認為說那我下次可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10025.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10031.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
不用就算是爆發全面的這個台海戰爭他只要取得部分戰果國際也會容許啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10032.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10057.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
市長你覺得台灣現在在這個狀況之下是不是要扮演起更大的責任跟角色報告委員我上禮拜就在柏林安全會議做了一個專題演講其實裡面提到就是說現在歐洲跟我們印太地區其實已經完全連結在一起了彼此之間的安全已經是必須互相 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10058.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10065.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
重視的那歐洲關心烏克蘭也非常清楚我在法國的時候就正好看到Zelensky正好來法國訪問他們大概是在談烏克蘭戰爭的議題所以台灣當然要表現出對於烏克蘭的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10073.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10077.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
目前台灣表現出來基本上都是透過像捷克 斯洛伐克 波蘭 立陶宛波羅的國家希望可以給烏克蘭更大的援助我們這樣的提議就我們全力參與然後把烏克蘭戰爭也當作是我們國家安全的一個很重要的部分我想都普遍受到歐洲國家的歡迎這是我這次去歐洲的一個感受 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10102.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10123.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
市長我還是再講一下不要只有在人家勝利的時候才支持對方我看到我們這個支持的力道隨著烏克蘭的戰況有些時候是成反比的在人家集結勝利的時候天天都在推特上面或者是在X上面天天PO文現在面臨到這種28條和平方案的時候在比較劣勢的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10124.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10138.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我們的聲量有跟之前一樣嗎我當然知道次長是關心歐洲的但是我必須還是要提醒包含外交包含國防包含國安這個時候在困難的時候更要展現出我們願意協助的這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10139.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10163.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我還是強調一下2022年開始包含日本都提供烏克蘭的飛武器資源他們的五種類型都可以提供救難 運輸警戒 監視 掃海這些都是可以提供的如果日本可以這樣做的話我們必須也要這樣做他是在替我們做台海戰爭的防衛如果不是因為烏克蘭的話中國會更大膽 會更冒進會更願意採用各種方式來去挑戰台海的和平 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10164.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10189.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以我看在第一集在戰略上面它是某種層面是戰略赫茲這些其他國家在印太的這些早進如果我們現在不扮演一些角色的話那下次當我們遇到困難的狀況的時候整個印太地區大家就仿效現在這種28條方案那我們該怎麼辦而且我們沒有這個腹地我們沒有這個腹地我們沒有什麼幾週幾週可以割讓給俄羅斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10192.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10214.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我們也沒有克里米亞我們沒有第二次機會我們只有一次機會所以現在我們本來就應該要扮演更重要的角色我這邊還是希望次長能夠如果再跟國安單位有會談的時候來去看一下日本的防衛裝備移轉的方式從中來去思考說我們現在可以做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10214.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10238.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
在這幾年的烏克蘭戰爭之中俄羅斯包含中國跟北朝鮮他們從中得到了很多學習到很多現代武器包含無人機裝備包含這個反無人機等等的這些技巧戰技我們基本上是沒有學習到任何地方的我們沒有任何的這個我們不但沒有這個派駐我們的這一些相關的人員在那邊觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10240.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10256.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
像中國都有朝鮮都有這些人就在累積他們的經驗朝鮮還派兵所以這些人跟這一些軍事上面的經驗都已經活化在他們未來的戰爭的準則上面或者是這個操作的準則上面我們現在是空白的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10256.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10279.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因為我們甚至最近我們不是還在開記者會嗎我們台灣竟然還有在賣一些資源給俄羅斯啊所以我們到底有沒有跟國安單位一起來整合一下有哪一些領主艦也好重要的資源也好我們現在還是在跟俄羅斯在交易的有沒有這些都是我們必須要思考的有沒有在跟朝鮮有沒有在跟俄羅斯我們怎麼可以再資助有可能會傷害我們的國家呢所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10281.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10298.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
有很多事情要做當然這不是外交部一個單位要做的剛好跟經濟部然後一起來討論我有時候看到說我們我還是再強調一次這個不要在別人勝利的時候才支持別人然後現在面臨逆風的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10299.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10326.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
更要展現出我們作為民主國家的意願我們不是說我們有價值外交嗎那我們要展現我們的價值我知道次長至少在歐洲的方面參加的各個會談裡面都有表現出我們對烏克蘭的支持我今天講這些東西是因為我在上禮拜我就已經跟包含烏克蘭的國會議員還有巴爾幹半島以及波羅的海相關的這些國會議員我們基本上都有在做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10328.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10353.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
討論 那我們有討論到28條的方案那每一個人 每一位國會議員都會在他們自己的家鄉來替歐洲做努力那他們也提到這不是歐洲失誤了這再也不是歐洲失誤了會發生在烏克蘭的我們要避免它發生在台灣那所以我們必須要讓戰士在烏克蘭就被嚇住住所以我們能做什麼參考一下日本的這個轉北一轉三原則那我們多 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10354.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10382.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
提供就多提供多制裁俄羅斯就多制裁好不好是的我們會照委員的指示去做請委員放心謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員各位請回接下來進行尋答的委員葉元之委員麻煩請那個外交部次長來吳次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10390.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10403.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
委員好市長好 跟你請教一下那個川普所提出來的五五二十八點和平計畫因為您也有提到說歐洲反彈非常激烈啦所以現在這個是不是定案應該不是啦他們還要再繼續的對談嗎跟協商嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10406.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10426.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我有看到歐洲有三個國家也提出一個對應版英國 法國 德國提出一個對應版代表說這28點最後是長什麼樣子還不知道是的這28點川普剛提出來的時候您自己的感覺怎麼樣你覺得這個是站在烏克蘭的立場它是一個合理的清單嗎計畫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10428.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10455.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我在柏林安全會議演講的時候特別提到就是烏克蘭戰爭歐洲發生的問題安全問題現在跟亞洲已經完全連結了我想在場數百人都對這樣的一個看法是抱以熱烈的掌聲所以我自己認為目前的28點提議我剛才已經提了很多次就是歐洲國家基本上是有非常大的疑慮的我是說問你個人的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10456.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10485.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我自己當然個人看法是我對這個也是有很大的疑慮因為我不能讓歐洲不能讓美國其實我是想要引導另外一個問題這個代表什麼呢這代表說美國所提出來的很多看法那個都是在他們自己國家的角度對其他國家不見得是有利的但是當你其他的國家提出適當的對應版或者是適當的不同意見的時候這個部分是可以協商的那我是希望說台灣其實也應該站在這樣子一個立場跟角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10486.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10501.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
譬如說最近新聞有報外媒報導說美國政府有個報告說希望台灣可以出錢去升級菲律賓的軍事基地讓美國來用這個事情是新聞有報導這個是應該你有聽說嗎有我想問市長態度我們政府的立場是照單全收還是會跟歐洲一樣會提出我們自己的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10513.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10528.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我跟委員報告一下國際關係理論有一個burden sharing共同負擔像NATO 像各種集體安全條約其實要維護安全各國都必須應濟的責任這個就是要回答剛才菲律賓 美國跟日本跟我們都是like-minded country雖然我們沒有正式的協防條約在這個地區我們共享很多共同利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10541.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10556.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
因為我的時間比較有限所以你的意思是說我們會照單全收這樣的看法就對了沒有 那也是個提議我現在只把這個理論這背後的philosophy講出來所以我們的態度是什麼我們有對應版嗎我們一定要跟菲律賓跟日本跟美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10557.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10573.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
共同負擔不是啦 我是覺得要第一個你還是要去談不是美國要我們幹嘛就幹嘛因為很多人會覺得這很不合理我們跟菲律賓我們去花錢去建他們軍事基地我們跟他還有一些衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10574.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10604.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
美國也有對我們直接援助譬如說像太平島的事情我們跟菲律賓就有主權爭議然後再來就是我們跟菲律賓目前沒有邦交我們去建立他們的軍事基地那你想辦法去跟他建交嘛沒有 他是我們那個共享我們共同理念的嘛我覺得與其是這樣反正我看美國官員的說法是說這個有助於台灣達到國防預算到GDP5%那與其這樣我們既然要花錢不如叫美國多賣一點我們有用的武器嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10605.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10618.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
或者你說再怎麼樣其實意思一樣錢就是直接給美國當時台美在關稅談判的時候美國有一個經濟顧問就說有四種方式可以讓台灣的關稅下降其中有一項就是直接捐錢給美國這意思已經差不多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10619.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10639.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這其實就差不多只是用一些技術性的方式好像看起來不是直接捐錢給美國但其實就是因為那個軍事基地本來是美軍要自己花錢建的但現在要台灣花錢建所以不就等於我們把錢拿給美國是一樣的意思嗎我覺得在談這個事情的時候因為大家有很多疑慮因為不要讓台灣好像被當成盤子 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10641.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10653.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
就叫我們去幫其他國家升級軍事設備跟基地我覺得大家聽起來會覺得好像真的有點被予取予求啦這個部分我覺得要很謹慎好 謝謝是 謝謝委員謝謝委員指教謝謝你謝謝好 請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10655.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10682.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
今天已登記質詢委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林楚瑩委員沈伯陽委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員有約定期限者從期鎖定各位辛苦今天會議到此結束散會 |