iVOD / 170623
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陳永康 @ 第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:03,000 | 主席有請外交部林部長 |
| 00:00:03,000 | 00:00:05,000 | 請林部長 |
| 00:00:11,000 | 00:00:12,000 | 部長早安 |
| 00:00:12,000 | 00:00:13,000 | 委員早 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:18,000 | 是 我們昨天也把部裡今天您要報告的內容 |
| 00:00:18,000 | 00:00:20,000 | 我們也先做了一些study |
| 00:00:20,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 那麼根據這裡面我們做出一些建言 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:26,000 | 那後面因為剛剛部長也講了 |
| 00:00:26,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 中國大陸現在對國際上面它的三戰 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:32,000 | 這個legal warfare, psychological warfare, media warfare |
| 00:00:32,000 | 00:00:34,000 | 是同步產生 |
| 00:00:34,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 那在這裡面所以我們平常聽到 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:41,000 | 有這個叫做misinformation |
| 00:00:41,000 | 00:00:43,000 | 可能我是好意 |
| 00:00:43,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 但是中間誤導了幾個資訊 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:47,000 | 就傳給人家 |
| 00:00:47,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 後面就變成disinformation |
| 00:00:49,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 然後產生了fake news |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:53,000 | 最後就你講的認知作戰 |
| 00:00:53,000 | 00:00:54,000 | cognitive warfare |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 所以我們很多的情況下 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:00:59,000 | 國內的同仁或者一般的社會媒體 |
| 00:00:59,000 | 00:01:02,000 | 我們看到的並不是一個完整的透明現象 |
| 00:01:02,000 | 00:01:04,000 | 那在這種情況下 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:07,000 | 我們常常提到國際法 |
| 00:01:07,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 那中國大陸很會利用我們剛剛講的灰色地帶 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 那是地理位置化解不明 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:17,000 | 那另外還有一個灰色區塊 |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 引述過去法律不同的時間 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:23,000 | 不同的內容 |
| 00:01:23,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 它去套一個不同的practice |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 那這種現象我們需要一個什麼 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 一個透明的圖表 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:35,000 | 那我建議下面這個東西上面的本質 |
| 00:01:35,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 四點原則五項做法 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:40,000 | 這個完全是外交部的展示的東西 |
| 00:01:40,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 那我們提個建議讓他了解 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:47,000 | 這個國際仲裁庭並不是國際法庭 |
| 00:01:47,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 所以它不涉及國家的主權 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 但是它是利益糾紛私權的爭端 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 所以我們需要國家的公權力做這個後盾 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 另外我們海巡駐守南沙太平島和東沙 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:09,000 | 這個我們需要國家持續在上面做支持 |
| 00:02:09,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 那我們如果有機會是不是也可以邀請外媒 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 到東沙到太平島 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:19,000 | 在島上做一個現勘做個訪問 |
| 00:02:19,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 因為剛好這個調發師市長您也在旁邊 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 等一下剛好借重您的這個專業 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 那麼除了海巡署不定期派艦船巡邏以外 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 另外因為在這幾個東沙島跟太平島 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:35,000 | 一個是有領海機線 |
| 00:02:35,000 | 00:02:38,000 | 一個是禁止水域限制水域 |
| 00:02:38,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 所以它的徵收器平面雷達涵蓋範圍有限 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 可能未來我們還要請這個海巡 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 在那邊要部署無人機能夠做反應 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 我下面就是用圖來給大家看 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:53,000 | 這個是一張顯示台灣 |
| 00:02:53,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 那這個就是套疊了整個南海的島的位置 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 左上角是根據我們的內政部公佈的 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 透過行政院發佈的兩次命令 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:09,000 | 民國88年98年 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 這裡面黃岩島是我們的所謂的領海機線設定的 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 所以中國大陸跟菲律賓在那邊爭吵 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:22,000 | 實際上我們的立場 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:24,000 | 這就是說產權在我家登記 |
| 00:03:24,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 你們如何去引起爭端 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 那你們家是 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 但是我們要強調我們的主權 |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 這個各位看到的是衛星照片 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 就是把每一個島礁校正同一個比例 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 所以你看到中國大陸 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 現在菲律賓在吵的就是所謂黃岩島民主礁 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:48,000 | 在右上角是目前最大的涵蓋範圍 |
| 00:03:48,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 他的海底生態漁獲因為範圍很大 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 所以涉及到利益 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 那這個我們是有主權的 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:59,000 | 這個是暗礁沒有出來的 |
| 00:03:59,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 中國大陸人工島礁就是美濟礁 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:07,000 | 還有這個竹壁礁跟永暑礁 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 原來太平島是在南海裡面最大的島 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 現在變成第四大了 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 可是中國大陸持續他的威力 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:16,000 | 最近在南海中間 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 另外一個就是昨天的報紙在講 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 就是在所謂的人礙礁 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 但人礙礁是在水下的 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 所以菲律賓在1999年 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 把他那個二次大濫的登陸艦 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 叫做Model A就在那邊grounding |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:35,000 | 那他利用grounding的船變成基地 |
| 00:04:35,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 目前中國大陸跟菲律賓在那邊爭吵的 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 第一個是用海警 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 菲律賓在船上派的是海軍 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 所以當海警跟海軍起衝突的時候 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 海軍的法律要吃虧了 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 因為他們做的是law enforcement |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 並不是軍事上的增值 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 所以他們雙方拿這個所謂的 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 這個圖我下去後 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 我提供外交部同仁做參考 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 這太珍貴了 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 趕快把照起來 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 因為這是已經校正過的 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 這是已經校正過的 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 那我們也希望相來 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 我提供更大的範圍給您做參考 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 也就是說我們要了解 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:16,000 | 所謂在這個人礙礁的起的衝突 |
| 00:05:16,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 那個人礙礁到底在哪裡 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:19,000 | 是什麼現況 |
| 00:05:19,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 我們提供進一步的分析 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:22,000 | 那至於黃岩島的部分 |
| 00:05:22,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 因為是我們內政部公布了 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 這個我們外交部要有自己的立場 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 本席在這個仲裁庭判決之前 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 也透過前面荷蘭的國防部長安排 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:37,000 | 所以我邀了我們的周台竹當年的代表 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 我們也到現場去做個現地 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 去了解這個狀況 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 那後續產生的問題 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:45,000 | 我們把這個建言 |
| 00:05:45,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 今天因為時間有限 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:49,000 | 我們再回饋給外交部 |
| 00:05:49,000 | 00:05:51,000 | 再看到這裡面有個東西 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 外交部可能要做點study |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 就是說美國跟西班牙 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 在1898年美西有戰爭 |
| 00:06:01,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 後來他們簽了一個巴黎停火協議 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 這個協議裡面 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:09,000 | 包括把古巴關島 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 還有其他的島礁 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 包括菲律賓的這些島礁 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 美國給2000萬美金做調停 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 但是他把這個管轄權就歸了美國 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 然後二戰以後菲律賓才獨立 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 在當年簽的協議第三條裡面 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 就是部長您看這個虛線 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 就是涵蓋的範圍 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 這個涵蓋的範圍人愛礁是在外面的 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 同樣的所謂的黃岩島也在外面的 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 這是歷史 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 我們不去炒誰對誰錯 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 但這個故事可能我們需要了解一下 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:49,000 | 這個圖我們更放大了 |
| 00:06:49,000 | 00:06:51,000 | 看到的黃岩島 |
| 00:06:51,000 | 00:06:53,000 | 看到的人愛礁 |
| 00:06:53,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 我們太平島在中間 |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 這個框框就是1898年 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 美西停火在巴黎協議講的那個界線 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 我們希望了解一下 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 這個美國支付2000萬美元 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 就等於說買到菲律賓的主權 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 後面90年又再付10萬美元 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 做一個補充 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 這個是今天早上7點半 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 在太平島周遭 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 我們也發現離岸很近的大概1000公尺 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 有個不明目標 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:30,000 | 他把信號關掉 |
| 00:07:30,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 在外面外側也有 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 這個將來我們可能要建議海巡 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 要用無人機出去看 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 這個了解一下 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:41,000 | 最後就是說我們的經濟海域 |
| 00:07:41,000 | 00:07:45,000 | 是用內政部勾畫的框架 |
| 00:07:45,000 | 00:07:47,000 | 中間重疊黃色陰影區 |
| 00:07:47,000 | 00:07:50,000 | 就是上次菲律賓跟日本 |
| 00:07:50,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 他們在談並沒有要我們談的 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 我想我們的調法師對這些圖 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 如果我們將來提供您做參考 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 你在做論述方面上 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:03,000 | 你有我們自己的立場 |
| 00:08:03,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 這些調法的細節就不講 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 最主要就是各位看一下 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 右邊的那個沖織鳥礁 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 但日本因為畫了200里經濟海域 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 所以我的漁民區這一段 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 我不談日本在國際法上是不是雙標 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 但是保護漁民的時候 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:21,000 | 就像我們外交部要這個地方 |
| 00:08:21,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 要爭取我們的保護漁民的利益 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:27,000 | 那這個同樣就是說我們的海巡署 |
| 00:08:27,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 也希望能夠透過管道 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 跟日本的海尾海巡做溝通 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 我想我今天的報告到這邊 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:35,000 | 請部長做一些回應 |
| 00:08:35,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 謝謝委員用可視化的圖表展示 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 讓我們大家可以一目了然 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 首先真的非常感謝 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 我們也學了很多 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 那確實我們不管是主權或漁權 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 我們的主張這個是很清楚 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 我們不要不斷的宣示 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 另外就是說怎麼去對爭議的解決 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 我們是用主張和平的方法 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 那在爭議解決前 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 還是有共同的利益 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 所以這個時候怎麼樣各自爭議共同開發 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:12,000 | 那台灣我們領有這些島 |
| 00:09:12,000 | 00:09:15,000 | 或者是周邊的這些海域 |
| 00:09:15,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 我們是要扮一個建設性的角色 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:21,000 | 所以不管是說人道的救援 |
| 00:09:21,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 或者是災難的這些防救 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 乃至於科研乃至於這些 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 都是比較正向的 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:35,000 | 我們希望用這樣的角色來參與 |
| 00:09:35,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 那台灣不能被排除 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 對排除我們都不承認 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 這其餘我們自己的國家利益 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:43,000 | 這一點但是我們怎麼去跟他們交涉 |
| 00:09:43,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 比如說日本跟菲律賓之間他們有交涉 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 我們跟他們之間有交涉 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 那當然還有一些未交涉完的事項 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:52,000 | 所以我們的立場要表達 |
| 00:09:52,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 那作為後續可以持續來參與爭端解決跟協商 |
| 00:09:59,000 | 00:10:01,000 | 我們有一個主體的角色 |
| 00:10:01,000 | 00:10:03,000 | 剛剛部長您講的就是 |
| 00:10:03,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 國家的核心利益這個是沒有折衷妥協的 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:09,000 | 但是區域的利益有折衷要溝通協商 |
| 00:10:09,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 這個是很重要 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 最主要就是不能夠怎麼講脫鉤斷鏈 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 一定要跟這些國家即便有局部利益的小衝突 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:20,000 | 但是要化解要溝通 |
| 00:10:20,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 以區域安全的共同利益為主要的目標 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 大家來溝通這個部分要大家努力 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:28,000 | 謝謝加油 |
| 00:10:28,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 謝謝委員 |