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王鴻薇 @ 第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:01,130 | 00:00:04,210 | 好,謝謝主席,我請郭立雄部長 |
| 00:00:04,210 | 00:00:05,210 | 請郭部長 |
| 00:00:12,050 | 00:00:12,850 | 是,王維 |
| 00:00:38,640 | 00:00:43,920 | 是,國安會來進行解約,預期罰款跟沒收履約保證金 |
| 00:00:43,920 | 00:00:48,120 | 好,這是由解約沒收罰款還有履約保證金 |
| 00:00:48,120 | 00:00:54,320 | 但是創未來的無人機反制系統無法履約 |
| 00:00:54,320 | 00:00:58,120 | 已經不是最近以來的第一宗 |
| 00:00:58,120 | 00:00:59,720 | 那我想請問一下 |
| 00:00:59,720 | 00:01:02,320 | 之前包含我們立法院 |
| 00:01:02,320 | 00:01:06,560 | 還有很多的社會大眾非常關注的 |
| 00:01:06,640 | 00:01:12,200 | 就是一個在台南的室內裝修公司 |
| 00:01:12,200 | 00:01:14,440 | 過去長期以來進口什麼 |
| 00:01:14,440 | 00:01:17,200 | 進口馬桶賣馬桶的公司 |
| 00:01:17,200 | 00:01:19,760 | 竟然可以標到我們 |
| 00:01:19,760 | 00:01:28,200 | 也是高達519的一個RDX的一個炸藥的標案 |
| 00:01:28,200 | 00:01:32,000 | 這個案子也曾經引起非常多的質疑 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:35,160 | 我想請問一下這個標案 |
| 00:01:35,160 | 00:01:37,320 | 後來他履約了嗎 |
| 00:01:38,300 | 00:01:39,740 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:01:39,740 | 00:01:41,780 | 當時的合約就是簽訂 |
| 00:01:41,780 | 00:01:45,020 | 合約在180天裡面要拿到輸出許可 |
| 00:01:45,020 | 00:01:47,340 | 那這家公司到了7月6號 |
| 00:01:47,340 | 00:01:48,900 | 已經預期的天數 |
| 00:01:48,900 | 00:01:51,900 | 20%、36天已經到達解約 |
| 00:01:51,900 | 00:01:53,620 | 所以我們就依合約 |
| 00:01:54,200 | 00:01:56,440 | 剛剛也跟法委員在補充報告 |
| 00:01:56,440 | 00:01:59,360 | 他的履約保證金是4123萬 |
| 00:01:59,360 | 00:02:02,600 | 然後預期的罰款是4275萬 |
| 00:02:02,600 | 00:02:05,720 | 總共罰款金額8398萬 |
| 00:02:05,720 | 00:02:07,960 | 家計要刊登不良廠商名單 |
| 00:02:07,960 | 00:02:08,759 | 以上說明 |
| 00:02:08,759 | 00:02:09,280 | 好 |
| 00:02:09,280 | 00:02:12,400 | 所以這個廠商會做處理對不對 |
| 00:02:12,400 | 00:02:15,560 | 就是從履約保證金跟罰款 |
| 00:02:15,560 | 00:02:18,440 | 要罰他8398萬對不對 |
| 00:02:18,440 | 00:02:18,960 | 98 |
| 00:02:18,960 | 00:02:19,600 | 是 |
| 00:02:19,600 | 00:02:21,320 | 8398萬 |
| 00:02:22,170 | 00:02:22,809 | 所以啊 |
| 00:02:23,709 | 00:02:28,230 | 當時我們在提出的這個案子 |
| 00:02:28,230 | 00:02:29,750 | 覺得他的非常不合理 |
| 00:02:30,980 | 00:02:33,500 | 當時我們的部長 |
| 00:02:33,500 | 00:02:36,220 | 還認為說這個我們是不實指控啊 |
| 00:02:37,190 | 00:02:38,910 | 現在是不實指控嗎部長 |
| 00:02:39,430 | 00:02:41,390 | 這個我想我們已經一再說明 |
| 00:02:41,390 | 00:02:43,950 | 我們過去對於這種的RDS |
| 00:02:43,950 | 00:02:47,230 | 或者類似的這個火藥的原物料等等的 |
| 00:02:47,230 | 00:02:51,350 | 我們都是採同樣的照標的一個規格 |
| 00:02:51,350 | 00:02:52,230 | 來進行的 |
| 00:02:52,230 | 00:02:53,430 | 那也就是說明 |
| 00:02:53,430 | 00:02:55,070 | 我們當時已經一再說明 |
| 00:02:55,070 | 00:02:56,230 | 他沒有辦法履約 |
| 00:02:56,230 | 00:02:58,670 | 我們就按合約來規定來處理 |
| 00:02:58,670 | 00:03:00,990 | 我們從來沒有去 |
| 00:03:00,990 | 00:03:03,430 | 幫任何一個廠商講說 |
| 00:03:03,430 | 00:03:04,350 | 他一定 |
| 00:03:04,350 | 00:03:07,270 | 現在部長說沒有幫他背書囉 |
| 00:03:07,270 | 00:03:07,910 | 什麼意思 |
| 00:03:07,950 | 00:03:09,549 | 我們當時一再的說明 |
| 00:03:09,549 | 00:03:10,829 | 就是我們所有 |
| 00:03:10,829 | 00:03:12,829 | 我已經找過所有相關的資料 |
| 00:03:12,829 | 00:03:16,230 | 歷來有關火藥原物料的這個規格 |
| 00:03:16,230 | 00:03:17,470 | 都是一致的 |
| 00:03:17,470 | 00:03:18,630 | 20年來啊 |
| 00:03:18,630 | 00:03:19,510 | 那都是一致的 |
| 00:03:19,510 | 00:03:21,510 | 我們沒有去 |
| 00:03:21,510 | 00:03:23,790 | 有什麼規格特別為市長進行 |
| 00:03:23,790 | 00:03:24,590 | 到目前為止 |
| 00:03:24,590 | 00:03:27,190 | 你還認為你們這個規格是正確的嗎 |
| 00:03:28,090 | 00:03:28,970 | 這個規格 |
| 00:03:28,970 | 00:03:30,850 | 我們這個錢也編了 |
| 00:03:30,850 | 00:03:33,090 | 然後標了也標出去了 |
| 00:03:33,740 | 00:03:35,300 | 那浪費時間啊 |
| 00:03:35,300 | 00:03:38,100 | 我們就跟無人機反制系統也是一樣啊 |
| 00:03:38,100 | 00:03:39,860 | 延宕了兩三年 |
| 00:03:39,860 | 00:03:42,140 | 好現在要重新的招標嘛 |
| 00:03:42,140 | 00:03:44,780 | 那這個你不是要重新招標嗎 |
| 00:03:44,780 | 00:03:46,540 | 所以不就是延宕嗎 |
| 00:03:46,540 | 00:03:47,580 | 我們一直在講 |
| 00:03:47,580 | 00:03:50,300 | 我們很多的軍事採購延宕 |
| 00:03:50,300 | 00:03:52,300 | 當時我們有的是怪美國 |
| 00:03:52,300 | 00:03:53,900 | 美國都沒有履約 |
| 00:03:53,900 | 00:03:55,540 | 美國都沒有交貨 |
| 00:03:55,540 | 00:03:56,900 | 但是問題是現在這個 |
| 00:03:56,900 | 00:03:58,220 | 這跟美國沒有關係啊 |
| 00:03:59,030 | 00:04:02,149 | 從無人機反制到現在的這個 |
| 00:04:02,149 | 00:04:04,350 | 裝潢公司賣馬桶公司 |
| 00:04:04,350 | 00:04:06,350 | 然後去標這個RDX |
| 00:04:06,350 | 00:04:08,190 | 這跟美國有什麼關係 |
| 00:04:08,190 | 00:04:10,310 | 這不就是我們自己的問題嗎 |
| 00:04:10,310 | 00:04:11,950 | 不需要檢討嗎部長 |
| 00:04:11,950 | 00:04:14,470 | 這個RDX的對外採購 |
| 00:04:14,470 | 00:04:17,829 | 我想在這個會受到 |
| 00:04:17,829 | 00:04:20,909 | 既然國際上會有種種的一個壓力的影響 |
| 00:04:20,909 | 00:04:22,990 | 我們現在規劃就是說 |
| 00:04:22,990 | 00:04:26,390 | 我們要自己來興建RDX的生產線 |
| 00:04:26,430 | 00:04:29,669 | 那原本是放在這個1.25兆的特別預算 |
| 00:04:29,669 | 00:04:32,070 | 那現在如果1.25兆沒有通過 |
| 00:04:32,070 | 00:04:34,229 | 那我們會放在我們的追加預算 |
| 00:04:34,229 | 00:04:36,550 | 或者是公務預算裡面 |
| 00:04:38,440 | 00:04:41,479 | 問題是我們原來就有預算不是嗎 |
| 00:04:41,479 | 00:04:44,039 | 原來預算金額高達8億多現在怎麼樣 |
| 00:04:44,630 | 00:04:46,030 | 現在沒有辦法履約 |
| 00:04:46,030 | 00:04:48,109 | 然後要再生一筆預算出來是吧 |
| 00:04:48,109 | 00:04:52,630 | 您現在講的是RDX還是 |
| 00:04:53,430 | 00:04:54,390 | 還是另外的案子 |
| 00:04:54,390 | 00:04:55,390 | RDX啊 |
| 00:04:55,390 | 00:04:58,390 | 對RDX的那個 |
| 00:04:58,390 | 00:05:00,190 | 那個是基金的部分吧 |
| 00:05:00,780 | 00:05:02,780 | 你我覺得真好笑 |
| 00:05:02,780 | 00:05:04,979 | 不管是無人機反制系統 |
| 00:05:05,590 | 00:05:06,909 | 你怎麼開標 |
| 00:05:06,909 | 00:05:07,710 | 你怎麼招標 |
| 00:05:07,710 | 00:05:09,909 | 不是就有預算你才招標嗎 |
| 00:05:09,909 | 00:05:12,909 | 那這個RDX不是也是有預算你才招標嗎 |
| 00:05:13,990 | 00:05:16,190 | 你現在告訴我你要再來編預算 |
| 00:05:16,190 | 00:05:17,590 | 什麼意思啊 |
| 00:05:17,590 | 00:05:18,790 | 跟委員報告 |
| 00:05:18,790 | 00:05:20,590 | 你直接不要亂七八糟 |
| 00:05:20,590 | 00:05:22,990 | 然後沒有辦法履約之後再來編預算 |
| 00:05:24,470 | 00:05:25,070 | 我們怎麼樣 |
| 00:05:25,070 | 00:05:27,470 | 一層牛要被你們剝兩層皮是吧 |
| 00:05:27,470 | 00:05:28,270 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:05:28,270 | 00:05:29,870 | 我們RDX不是用公務預算 |
| 00:05:29,870 | 00:05:32,270 | 是用我們基金的預算去購買的 |
| 00:05:32,270 | 00:05:34,070 | 這邊跟委員說明 |
| 00:05:34,070 | 00:05:35,070 | 所以未來怎麼樣 |
| 00:05:35,070 | 00:05:37,670 | 我們要建立自主的產線 |
| 00:05:37,670 | 00:05:39,670 | 那這個部分當然要放入預算 |
| 00:05:39,670 | 00:05:40,270 | 好 |
| 00:05:40,270 | 00:05:41,670 | 兩個概念是不一樣 |
| 00:05:41,670 | 00:05:43,070 | 一個是我們對外採購 |
| 00:05:43,070 | 00:05:46,670 | 那一個要建立自主的產線這樣子 |
| 00:05:47,400 | 00:05:50,000 | 我們原來很多自有自主的產線 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:51,859 | 你們偏偏要往外面標 |
| 00:05:51,859 | 00:05:55,020 | 來除了這一件這個案子要解約之外 |
| 00:05:55,020 | 00:05:56,919 | 來我們看下一個案子 |
| 00:05:56,919 | 00:06:00,659 | 這個也是我們的召委曾經質詢過的 |
| 00:06:00,659 | 00:06:03,460 | 105公里的砲彈 |
| 00:06:03,460 | 00:06:05,620 | 以前是我們自己在做 |
| 00:06:05,620 | 00:06:06,560 | 後來呢 |
| 00:06:06,560 | 00:06:09,219 | 就變成也是去到外面買 |
| 00:06:09,760 | 00:06:10,680 | 結果 |
| 00:06:10,680 | 00:06:14,520 | 也碰到了一個拿到輸出許可有問題的 |
| 00:06:14,520 | 00:06:16,080 | 所以請問一下這個案子怎麼樣 |
| 00:06:16,780 | 00:06:17,700 | 是不是也要解約 |
| 00:06:18,330 | 00:06:21,150 | 跟委員報告這個案子我們在5月份 |
| 00:06:21,150 | 00:06:22,349 | 就已經辦理解約 |
| 00:06:22,349 | 00:06:25,229 | 並且我們也是一樣依照合約 |
| 00:06:25,229 | 00:06:25,750 | 我們 |
| 00:06:26,720 | 00:06:28,720 | 再加上 |
| 00:06:33,220 | 00:06:34,220 | 一共 |
| 00:06:34,220 | 00:06:35,220 | 罰多少 |
| 00:06:35,220 | 00:06:36,220 | 4億 |
| 00:06:36,220 | 00:06:37,220 | 一共罰4億 |
| 00:06:37,220 | 00:06:39,220 | 這個案子標案一共多少 |
| 00:06:39,220 | 00:06:41,220 | 這個案子的標案是 |
| 00:06:41,890 | 00:06:44,890 | 約台幣18.4億 |
| 00:06:46,500 | 00:06:47,500 | 然後罰4億 |
| 00:06:47,500 | 00:06:49,500 | 請問一下未來這個怎麼樣 |
| 00:06:49,500 | 00:06:50,500 | 這個原來是 |
| 00:06:50,500 | 00:06:53,500 | 我們205兵工廠自己做的 |
| 00:06:54,850 | 00:06:56,850 | 我們兵工廠自己做的是因為在 |
| 00:06:56,850 | 00:06:58,850 | 101年這個產線就拆掉了 |
| 00:06:58,850 | 00:07:01,850 | 那為了因為我們在今年的5月份 |
| 00:07:01,850 | 00:07:03,850 | 都已經拿到輸出許可了 |
| 00:07:03,850 | 00:07:04,850 | 到外面買 |
| 00:07:04,850 | 00:07:05,850 | 然後現在沒辦法拿到 |
| 00:07:05,850 | 00:07:07,850 | 那個輸入許可 |
| 00:07:09,400 | 00:07:10,400 | 我們到底在搞什麼 |
| 00:07:10,850 | 00:07:11,850 | 請問在搞什麼 |
| 00:07:11,850 | 00:07:13,850 | 原來可以自己來生產的 |
| 00:07:13,850 | 00:07:15,850 | 把產線拆了之後 |
| 00:07:15,850 | 00:07:17,850 | 然後就在外面在外面標 |
| 00:07:17,850 | 00:07:18,850 | 標了之後 |
| 00:07:18,850 | 00:07:20,850 | 外面的廠商 |
| 00:07:20,850 | 00:07:21,850 | 根本沒有能力 |
| 00:07:21,850 | 00:07:24,850 | 可以幫我們買到這些這個砲彈 |
| 00:07:24,850 | 00:07:26,850 | 所以請問我們到底在幹嘛 |
| 00:07:26,850 | 00:07:28,850 | 部長你不覺得很離譜嗎 |
| 00:07:29,820 | 00:07:31,820 | 連續這三個案子 |
| 00:07:31,820 | 00:07:33,820 | 你不覺得很離譜嗎 |
| 00:07:33,820 | 00:07:35,820 | 我現在都可以封你是解約部長 |
| 00:07:37,480 | 00:07:38,480 | 跟委員說 |
| 00:07:38,480 | 00:07:41,480 | 5月6月7月連續的這些標案全部解約 |
| 00:07:41,480 | 00:07:44,480 | 這是之前大家都質疑的案子 |
| 00:07:44,480 | 00:07:45,480 | 你們說沒問題 |
| 00:07:45,480 | 00:07:46,480 | 不要質疑 |
| 00:07:46,480 | 00:07:48,480 | 質疑的話你們就是 |
| 00:07:48,480 | 00:07:49,480 | 不利於我們的國防 |
| 00:07:49,480 | 00:07:50,480 | 會有國安問題 |
| 00:07:51,500 | 00:07:52,500 | 結果呢 |
| 00:07:53,360 | 00:07:54,360 | 拿手 |
| 00:07:54,910 | 00:07:55,910 | 通通沒有辦法 |
| 00:07:55,910 | 00:07:56,910 | 呂月 |
| 00:07:57,630 | 00:07:58,630 | 陳偉還笑 |
| 00:07:58,630 | 00:07:59,630 | 確實嘛 |
| 00:08:01,370 | 00:08:02,370 | 大家會不會生氣啊 |
| 00:08:03,520 | 00:08:04,520 | 我來講就是說 |
| 00:08:04,520 | 00:08:06,520 | 我們對於很多的軍購案 |
| 00:08:06,520 | 00:08:08,520 | 有一些你受制於美國 |
| 00:08:08,520 | 00:08:11,520 | 你必須要美國賣給你 |
| 00:08:11,520 | 00:08:12,520 | 美國要履約 |
| 00:08:12,520 | 00:08:13,520 | 美國要交貨 |
| 00:08:13,520 | 00:08:15,520 | 那這個都不是啊 |
| 00:08:15,520 | 00:08:16,520 | 而且最離譜是 |
| 00:08:16,520 | 00:08:18,520 | 我們原來是自己可以做的捏 |
| 00:08:19,600 | 00:08:20,600 | 自己可以做然後 |
| 00:08:21,270 | 00:08:22,270 | 不錯了 |
| 00:08:22,620 | 00:08:24,620 | 給外面去買 |
| 00:08:24,620 | 00:08:26,620 | 找了一堆熱量七八糟的公司 |
| 00:08:28,370 | 00:08:30,370 | 剛才我在講那個福麥公司 |
| 00:08:31,750 | 00:08:32,750 | 那個案子 |
| 00:08:32,750 | 00:08:34,750 | 甚至連監察院 |
| 00:08:34,750 | 00:08:36,750 | 最近針對我們國防部的採購 |
| 00:08:36,750 | 00:08:38,750 | 都提出了問題啊 |
| 00:08:38,750 | 00:08:39,750 | 說你根本找一個 |
| 00:08:40,929 | 00:08:42,929 | 根本看起來就是沒有辦法去履約的公司 |
| 00:08:42,929 | 00:08:43,929 | 然後你標給他說 |
| 00:08:43,929 | 00:08:45,930 | 我全部符合規定 |
| 00:08:46,680 | 00:08:47,680 | 其結果如何 |
| 00:08:48,990 | 00:08:49,990 | 所以啊 |
| 00:08:50,460 | 00:08:51,460 | 部長 |
| 00:08:52,080 | 00:08:54,080 | 這麼多案子你覺得國防部要不要檢討 |
| 00:08:54,080 | 00:08:55,080 | 你說 |
| 00:08:56,180 | 00:08:57,180 | 怎麼給我們交代 |
| 00:08:58,980 | 00:08:59,980 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:08:59,980 | 00:09:00,980 | 監察院 |
| 00:09:00,980 | 00:09:01,980 | 我在請問部長 |
| 00:09:06,110 | 00:09:07,110 | 監察院 |
| 00:09:07,110 | 00:09:08,110 | 部長你無言以退了嗎 |
| 00:09:08,110 | 00:09:09,110 | 我是說明 |
| 00:09:09,110 | 00:09:10,110 | 監察院來的案子 |
| 00:09:10,110 | 00:09:11,110 | 我們都已經說明了 |
| 00:09:11,110 | 00:09:13,110 | 監察院整個看我們的履約啦 |
| 00:09:13,110 | 00:09:14,110 | 他有幾個 |
| 00:09:14,110 | 00:09:15,110 | 一個 |
| 00:09:15,110 | 00:09:16,110 | 精進的建議啊 |
| 00:09:16,110 | 00:09:17,110 | 我們整個案子的招標 |
| 00:09:17,110 | 00:09:18,110 | 是沒有違失的 |
| 00:09:18,110 | 00:09:19,110 | 以上說明 |
| 00:09:19,110 | 00:09:20,110 | 另外再跟委員報告 |
| 00:09:20,110 | 00:09:21,110 | 在10秒鐘 |
| 00:09:21,110 | 00:09:22,110 | 所以這些案子 |
| 00:09:22,110 | 00:09:23,110 | 全部沒有違失 |
| 00:09:23,110 | 00:09:24,110 | 全部合格 |
| 00:09:24,110 | 00:09:27,110 | 只是他們都沒有辦法履約 |
| 00:09:27,110 | 00:09:28,110 | 我要講的是 |
| 00:09:28,110 | 00:09:29,110 | 未來 |
| 00:09:29,110 | 00:09:31,110 | 我不曉得還有沒有類似的案例 |
| 00:09:32,090 | 00:09:35,090 | 所以我們其實在一些的規格上面 |
| 00:09:35,090 | 00:09:38,090 | 在一些就是你要確定 |
| 00:09:38,090 | 00:09:39,090 | 廠商能不能履約 |
| 00:09:39,090 | 00:09:42,090 | 我們要有更多的具體的 |
| 00:09:42,090 | 00:09:43,090 | 好 |
| 00:09:43,090 | 00:09:44,090 | 的相關的政策 |
| 00:09:44,090 | 00:09:45,090 | 不要到時候 |
| 00:09:45,090 | 00:09:46,090 | 最後 |
| 00:09:47,720 | 00:09:48,720 | 一翻兩瞪眼 |
| 00:09:48,720 | 00:09:49,720 | 好不好 |
| 00:09:49,720 | 00:09:50,720 | 跟委員報告 |
| 00:09:50,720 | 00:09:51,720 | 我想 |
| 00:09:51,720 | 00:09:53,720 | 不管是火藥的原物料的採購 |
| 00:09:53,720 | 00:09:54,720 | 我們在有一些 |
| 00:09:54,720 | 00:09:57,720 | 包括我們國造的艦 |
| 00:09:57,720 | 00:09:58,720 | 或者是潛艦等等 |
| 00:09:58,720 | 00:10:00,720 | 我們一些商源的取得 |
| 00:10:00,720 | 00:10:01,720 | 都並不容易啦 |
| 00:10:01,720 | 00:10:02,720 | 那有 |
| 00:10:02,720 | 00:10:06,720 | 如果我們會按照我們的這個合約的 |
| 00:10:08,140 | 00:10:10,140 | 這個履約的這個保證的機制 |
| 00:10:10,140 | 00:10:12,140 | 我們來好好的進行規劃 |
| 00:10:12,140 | 00:10:14,140 | 那沒有辦法履約這個部分 |
| 00:10:14,140 | 00:10:16,140 | 也有相關的解約的機制 |
| 00:10:16,140 | 00:10:19,140 | 劃款跟莫說裡的保證金等等 |
| 00:10:19,140 | 00:10:21,140 | 都會依照合約來進行這樣 |
| 00:10:22,620 | 00:10:24,620 | 該依約的當然是依約你是大律師 |
| 00:10:24,620 | 00:10:27,620 | 但是問題不要再發生這些類似的狀況 |
| 00:10:27,620 | 00:10:28,620 | 好以上 |
| 00:10:29,550 | 00:10:30,550 | 謝謝大家 |
| 00:10:29,880 | 00:10:31,880 | 謝謝大家 |
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| 00:10:57,880 | 00:10:58,880 | 謝謝大家 |