| IVOD_ID |
17060 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17060 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025112176 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-21T11:24:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-21T12:55:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:30:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a009a2ea16e66322ecf3502669a1577edf85db5c09cad80ab75922a04cd91fd7775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-21T11:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：議案協商） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:24:17 - 12:55:00 |
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SPEAKER_10 |
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SPEAKER_10 |
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SPEAKER_09 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
98.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
98.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1025.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1025.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1246.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1275.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
好 謝謝各位黨團幹部非常感謝大家一起來出席今天的朝野協商我們依照黨團共識進行相關的協商現在開始今天討論四項其中職安法全民健保資料管理條例還有特色健警案已有共識等一下我們就不再需要進行協商我們現在進行公投法的協商我們歡迎中央選舉委員會吳代理主委熱情歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1276.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1294.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
內政部馬次長 熱情歡迎你法務部林副司長 歡迎你司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳 政副廳長 歡迎你我們現在要特別跟大家報告我們學生的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1301.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1314.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們現在進行台灣民眾黨團楊瓊英委員等26位賴思寶27位委員以及徐宇峥24位委員分別釐記公民投票法第23條條文修正草案共計4案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1316.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1334.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
经院会决定进复二读相关提案并按协商并由台湾民众党团负责召集协商相关法案在10月20号经台湾民众党团黄国昌总召集协商之后因为协商并没有共识因此于今天再次邀请各位党团进行协商 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1336.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1348.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那進入協商之前請各黨團代表表達意見再請主管機關一起幫忙說明現在就公投法23條條文修正草案各相關提案進行討論現在請華國昌總召請發言國民黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1354.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1367.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
針對這一次公民投票法的修正基本上它的本質就是在回覆2019年之前那個時候公民投票在一定的時間當中會舉行全國性的大選的時候應該要合併舉行 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1370.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1394.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
從2019年那一次再度的把公投法鎖回鳥籠之後鎖回鳥籠之後實際上面的效應已經清楚的展現出來了為了要促進整個直接民權的行使回歸當初實現直接民權公投人民做主補正公投法的理念我們認為有必要要把那一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1395.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1411.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
再把公投法鎖回鳥籠兩年才舉辦一次這樣一個不合理的規定與排除回歸過去的規定今天所提出來的法案跟上一次公投法的修正除了回覆以前的規定之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1413.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1436.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
為了要跟公告的期間三個月彼此之間可以相密合因此我們在規範上面因為公告要有90天必須要有三個月的期間把它相對應的透過再修正的動議修正回三個月到六個月這樣子的期間相關的論述我相信過去這段時間當中已經社會各界都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1437.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1453.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
相當多的討論那昨天在主持黨團協商的時候各黨團的代表我也讓大家充分的發言經過兩輪的發言以後那主管機關昨天我們的五代理主委也表達過意見那今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1454.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1480.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
而院長針對這件事情認為有必要再拉到協商來討論了一下相關的討論昨天在進行黨團協商的時候各黨團的代表進行兩輪的發言相關的意見都應該清楚的呈現最近由游盈隆教授他所主持的台灣民意基金會所主持的民調也清楚的呈現出來贊成公投跟大選同時舉辦的民意高達58% |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1483.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1501.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
可以說是遠遠高於反對的比例台灣的民意最近這幾次在永榮教授他所推動的相關的民調當中已經清楚的展現出來因此台灣民眾黨立法院黨團提出這一次公民投票法的修正草案希望回復 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1503.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1529.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
過去我們公投可以跟大選合併舉行的意旨因為昨天其實在討論的過程當中大家都忘了一件事情只是我昨天自己作為主持人我不便對法案的內容表達太多個人強烈的意見但昨天大家在討論相關有關於公投等等譬如說之前的四大公投或者是說今年的核三 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1530.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1554.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
演繹公投在討論相關的投票率跟投票的時候其實忘了我們其實2022年的地方選舉的時候針對於有關於憲法修正案的覆決其實大選是有跟那一次憲法修正案的公民覆決是有合併舉行的中選會在他們的書面報告當中我不知道是刻意的遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1555.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1571.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
還是不小心的疏漏也沒有提到在2022年那一次地方選舉的時候針對有關於18歲公民權的修憲提案合併跟人的選舉結合起來舉行到底是產生了什麼樣子的弊害 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1572.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1591.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為2022年的時候地方選舉我有去投票我也很高興的去投了18歲公民權的票那一次投票的結果跟投票的過程我完全看不到中選會在他們書面報告所講的說對人跟對事要分開18歲公民權不是對事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1592.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1615.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那怎麼18歲公民權憲法修正案的附決的公民投票跟對人選舉的可以結合那其他的就不行理由到底是什麼老實說我從昨天中選會的報告當中我完全看不出來也沒有辦法理解那因此我們黨團這次提出這一次公民投票法的修正案那希望能夠落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1616.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1624.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
公民投票法實現直接民權的理念 以上說明 謝謝謝謝黃國昌總召的說明 國民黨團請發言 民進黨團請準備今天我們來修這個公投法 恢復公投綁大選我有四位非常尊敬的民進黨前輩 我要在此緬懷他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1637.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1644.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第一個是曾經說過不要把公投綁大選當作洪水猛獸的陳其邁 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1646.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1667.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我很遺憾今天把公投綁大選當成洪水猛獸的就是民進黨第二個我要緬懷的是蘇貞昌蘇貞昌當時力推公投綁大選還跟大家講說這個是非常節省經費的做法結果現在把蘇貞昌理念踐踏的也是我們現在的民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1668.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1694.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第三個我要緬懷的是民進黨的公投神主牌蔡同榮已故的蔡同榮立委他的尊號叫做蔡公投一輩子心心念念來去推動公投促成了公投綁大選了不起的徒子徒孫民進黨2019年政黨輪替後三年立刻就把蔡公投的理念拋諸腦後 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1696.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1713.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我第四個要緬懷的是我們的這個林公投為了拼公投台灣投走到台灣為林義雄所以在這邊我要拜託我們的民進黨就是這些前輩的徒子徒孫們還是想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1714.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1737.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
一輩子在拼公投綁大選一上任就把公投綁大選把它廢掉拔掉把公投踐踏掉到底對不對得起民進黨這些所謂的前輩們剛剛其實國昌兄講得也非常好我其實到現在都不太懂民進黨公投跟大選要拆開的邏輯啊當初說2019說公投跟大選不可以併在一起是民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1738.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1759.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
結果到修憲的公投跟大選又併在一起的主張者也是民進黨啊那不太懂說為什麼公投一回可以一回不可以不要精神錯亂走自己前輩的路以上就是我對四位民進黨前輩的緬懷謝謝謝謝羅志強書記長的發言接下來民進黨發言之後我們請中選會吳主任委員要請準備發言請民進黨團請發言剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1768.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1791.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
柔志祥委員在緬懷半天我這腦筋有點錯亂胡亂緬懷一通你要知道八國工廠黃國昌發言 葉榮昌發言因為民運黨過去也是反對工頭房大選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1792.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1803.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以我們要從歷史脈絡來講的話這個都很清楚今天要在共同黨大選的話 坦白講一定會發生邊投票邊開票所以這個很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1812.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1829.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
2009年修法2011年開始實施到現在那個馬上要修沒有任何足夠理由要修而且而且是開導車以上另外有關於這個我們本黨有提案希望我們海運長 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1831.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1838.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
等一下我們提案 希望我們的版本先表決我們再修正版本以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1849.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1864.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
接下來我們麻煩請中選會的吳代理主任委員麻煩請表達意見好嗎 謝謝你主席 院長還有我們黨團各位委員大家好我想昨天在這個政黨協商的時候這個中選會立場我們也表達很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1865.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1874.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那在這個站在中選會的立場一個選務機關的立場我們希望任何一個選舉都是一個可控性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1874.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1895.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那也就是說如果假設我們公投把它綁大選以後那麼會讓這個選入的複雜度拉升那我們都不希望說因為複雜度拉高了以後影響了這個選舉的結果那對於公平性跟公正性也會被人家質疑那另外一個就是說我們都不希望它重複的2018年 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1898.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1924.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那時候的綁公投造成了一些亂象這是我們最擔心的那其實我要特別有提到就是說投票率的多寡其實跟綁不綁公投兩個要不要綁在一起其實沒有絕對的關係我們看以往的這個資料我們認為議題的被關注度的高低才會決定真正的投票率的高低這個是我們中選會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1926.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1949.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個立場我們還是認為說為此現在把它分開對於公投的議題可以很充分的讓民眾去這個理性的去討論那我想這個對於整個實施公民直接民權是一個很大的幫助所以這是我們中協會的立場謝謝中協會的說明那內政部要表達意見嗎沒有 法務部要表達意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1950.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1968.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 謝謝各位黨團幹部讓我宣讀一下我們公投法現在沒有辦法達成共識我們就保留送院會處理好嗎宗嘉賓委員請發言那個剛剛我們黨團也有在修正動議是不是在表決的時候我們可以因為反正不會過嘛反正表決嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1972.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1985.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好那就謝謝各位列席的選委中選會還有內政部法務部還有司法院列席的各位官員謝謝大家我們現在進行裁劃法的協商那這樣子我們協商就是為了這個目的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1997.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2021.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
主席啊 那這樣子我們今天就是說這個協商的程序然後我們希望各黨的再修正動議都有機會表決那結果由公大會決定 院會決定請 喔沒有 鍾嘉斌我們現在請黃國昌總召請發言我想立法院的議事規則規定得非常清楚啦再修正動議表決的順序就是按照送案的順序嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2023.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2036.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那你如果協商要改變這個規則就要各個黨團同意嘛那如果沒有協商共識去變更這個規則的話就回到意識規則就按照意識規則處理如此簡單就是這樣子而已宋家斌委員請再發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2041.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2062.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
其實今天我想草野協商大家來主席院長坐在台上心裡想的都是說下午兩點半要進行個案的表決所以這個協商過水的意味很濃厚剛剛民眾黨黨團總召的意思也是如此協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2063.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2091.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
不用談就是按照國會託策意見那這何必協商呢協商就是說我們在內容上或許有不同意見程序上的討論處理也是可以進行如果通通要按照議事規則那協商的目的我們的議事規則我們的立法院職權行使法留有協商的這樣的機制就是希望在規則之外我們因應著各個不同的案件我們可以透過一個更有效率的方式來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2092.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2106.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
不然的話主席院長這邊也不用主持反正就是表決就好了那我還是要就內容上很遺憾的我們的再修正動議的內容其實就是在昨天這個民眾黨主持 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2110.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2124.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
黨團協商的時候我們聽了國會多數國眾兩黨的意見之後我們覺得或許這樣的一個折衷的態度可以爭取到大家的共識怎麼說呢剛剛啊民眾黨的主席有提到說2018 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2129.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2152.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
公投跟大選同時進行在此之前是誰在反對公投綁大選是誰在支持公投綁大選大家心裡有數但是在2018那一次邊開票邊投票的亂象之後大家都知道發生什麼事台北市長的選舉在進行但是台北市民的投票有好幾個公投案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2153.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2166.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以在造成投票開票的延宕甚至有人質疑那次市長選舉的投票結果包括國民黨的市長候選人丁守中還特別提起訴訟認為那次的選舉是無效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2167.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2190.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以在那次的選舉當中 很多人都重新的審視過去主張將公投並同大選來舉行固然有它的正向的效果 但是它的後遺症它的衍生的爭議 中選會選務機關有辦法處理嗎因此才有2019年我們這些相關的條文公投法的設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2191.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2220.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第二公投法的設定改為兩年定期舉行在每兩年的八月的第四個星期六對不起我把它收完這個一定要講清楚然後這在很多國家都是這樣所有要發起公投的都可以明確的日期去推算他什麼時候發動連署什麼時候要截止要什麼進行所以這樣的一個制度是更明確的保障了公投可以定期的每兩年接受一些社會的檢證 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2221.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2243.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第三 說到立場反覆在場有羅委員 有黃委員在2011 2021年四大公投案的時候其中一個案子就是公投綁大選那一次雖然沒有任何一個超過25%但是反對是多於同意的反對的政黨立場包括民眾黨我不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2244.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2265.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
民眾黨的主席現在是不是過去的反對跟今天的贊成可以完全翻過來還是今天的贊成明天又會反對其實那一次民眾黨在四大公投也是反對公投綁大選然而再說到2024年我們去年的選舉投票的確有修憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2267.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2287.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
有公民投票年齡這個選舉年齡的降為18歲很開心的聽到有在野黨的黨主席說他們也是支持公民投票選舉權降為18歲我很擔心這個支持選舉權降為18歲的黃主席會不會之後又反對了你之前可以反對共同綁大選現在要支持共同綁大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2289.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2318.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
之前反對 現在支持你去年支持18歲公民權你會不會明年反對18歲公民權最後我們要說的 退與萬不講如果真的為了要讓公投容易通過要提高投票率 跟大選綁在一起很好啊 今天民進黨的黨團我們提出了一個建議 在修正動議就是讓公民投票的前一天也並同放假讓大家可以安心的 充裕的來參與公民投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2318.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2343.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那麼這樣的如果說這樣的設計是不是相較於之前要跟地方的選舉或者中央的大選綁在一起造成選務上的混亂更可以完整的讓公民充裕的去表達他們對公民投票個案的意見而且只有公民投票個案而且前面一天還讓你可以放假讓你可以充分的準備所以我們的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2344.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2368.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
就是依國眾兩黨多數的邏輯為了要提高國民對公民投票的參與所以我們提出這個再修正動議那我們要這個再修正動議讓各黨來表示意見這就是我們爭取剛剛所爭取的在協商的過程當中我們這個再修正動議現在這個超越協商有人很喜歡講超越協商全國都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2369.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2388.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
人民都在看是不是主席就請我們這個再修正統議我們希望能夠一起加入表決讓各黨來表態不然現在就可以表態啊在場的黨團代表是不是反對公平投票日之前一日也並同放假讓公民可以充裕的來參與公民投票 以上國民黨團表達一下意見吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2401.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2424.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我覺得大家講的都有道理但是民主社會我們最後還是要經過民主程序來處理不可否認的民進黨過去所有的前輩都希望為了讓人民真正的意識能夠表達而不會受到在日常工作的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2425.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2448.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
能夠在重要的人民選拔的時候這些重要包括總統 副總統 立法委員或者是九合一的選舉的時候大家都出門選選舉人的時候把民眾的想法的公投的意見也能夠表達所以我想過去大家一致取得這樣一個決議也能夠節省經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2451.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2458.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
也能夠最充分的展現能夠超過50%以上的投票率我想我們可以縱觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2463.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2488.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這20年來20年來全國的縣市長選舉的九合一或者是總統副總統選舉的這個大選投票率都是超過50%的都超過50%那是真正可以貫徹民意的一個公投權的形式我想不要再另外找一個比較特定的日子那可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2490.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2511.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
在人數不足的情況之下我們也可以看到過去幾次的公投往往就因為出席人數不足而把整個公投的意義完全抹滅掉所以我想這是大家可以合氣來討論的事情那不只可以顧及國家公帑的使用必須要來節儉 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2513.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2537.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那第二個又能夠充分把全國超過50%以上的民意能夠來伸展那才是絕對多數的民意的伸展我想我們過去所有的公投都已經非常的清楚從民主進步黨執政以後改變過去的初衷把公投跟大選分開來以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2539.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2563.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
請問有哪一次的公投是順利可以成功的所以我們在這裡希望還是回到人民意志能夠充分的展現應該跟全國性的選選引人的大選舉能夠綁在一起能夠充分的來把一些全國的公眾的議題可以一併的做民意的展現好 謝謝國民黨團發言黃黨長 您要補言 補發言嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2567.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2591.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
因為每個黨團按照順序嘛大家按照順序公平的發言的機會基本上回應一下第一個在黨團協商的時候你要變更規則可以提出來啊但是你沒有資格你也沒有立場去要求其他黨團必須要接受如果不接受的話就要發動人身攻擊的話我覺得這樣的協商啊大可不必沒有意義2019年 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2594.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2604.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
蘇嘉全在協商公投法的時候公投綁大選那一條完全沒有討論到使用的時間是零分 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2605.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2628.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
其他的條文協商了兩條 大家沒共識其他的條文談都不用談 包括公投綁大選這一條立法院公報記載得非常清楚當年蘇嘉全在主持民進黨禁賦二讀協商的時候公投綁大選那一條的條文完全沒有協商直接跳過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2630.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2650.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
晚上下去表決立法院公報記載得非常非常的清楚那第三個過去民進黨一直在批評在野黨說到最後一天的時候才把再修正動議拿出來我們早就說了按照議事規則本來就是這樣子規定啊結果一直在抹黑在野黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2656.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2668.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
按照議事規則提出再修正動議是黑箱那奇怪了如果按照民進黨今天偉大的邏輯的話今天民進黨在丟再修正動議出來那民進黨不是在進行他們自己所謂的黑箱嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2670.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2697.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
意識規則是什麼就按照意識規則走嘛在野黨按照意識規則走民進黨鋪天蓋地的在那邊罵是黑箱那今天民進黨把他們的再修正動議最後一天才拿出來請問這不是黑箱什麼是黑箱最後一點要討論說投票前一天要放假當然可以討論啊當然可以討論啊那你要討論你就要並同選舉一起討論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2698.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2709.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
選舉有比較不重要嗎公投很重要啊 選舉也很重要啊但是民進黨他們現在最後一天拿的再修正動議為了要阻止 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2710.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2734.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們把公投再度的從鳥籠放出來突然出了一招說公投前一天要放假然後逼問在野黨說你們同意不同意我們心胸很開放啊如果讓我們說投票前一天大家要促進大家盛施民變好好思考 冷靜一下哇 那選總統更要冷靜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2735.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2763.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
因為如果選出不錯選出不對的總統是全民受害我相信過去這兩年啊2300萬台灣人民的感受非常的深刻啊那關於放假的這個事情當然可以討論嘛那討論那我們就回到回到在有關於假日的制定上面是不是除了公投要放假選舉也要放假公投綁大選那剛好合併舉行那只放一天更有效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2765.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2789.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好 謝謝黃祖昭發言我想這個熱度開始提高大家冷卻一下 冷卻一下因為還有好幾個案子我建議是不是情緒性的或者我們就不再發言情緒性的就這個案子實際現在台灣民眾黨團就要求就照這個排案的時間次序送來了先後那總裁編委您做最後一個簡短扼壓 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2791.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2819.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我們就按照院長的提示我們不帶火器但是有火器的已經出去了所以現場的人都沒有火器因為剛剛的表述其實有很多的問題與事實不符這個黃委員說在2019年蘇前院長的時候他在主持公投法是沒有討論的討論用0分鐘 錯到第9條之前都有討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2820.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2838.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那後來在協商的時候為什麼協商沒有辦法完成呢因為那時候的時代力量跟親民黨他們不參加 拒絕參加協商所以我一直很疑惑是不是黃委員換了政黨就換了腦袋當年是時代力量的時候是明明有參 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2839.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2865.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
但有參與到第九條啊有討論啊然後走了人協商做不下去當然只好進一步處理啊好來那我們再談第二個這裡呢我們秘書長也在現場其實呢我們說所謂的修正動議再修正動議本來就是在二讀會之前當日處理的時候會提出但是所謂的黑箱是什麼是在這個讀會之前完全沒有討論完全沒有討論而且呢之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2869.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2898.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
可能經過協商然後才在讀會當天用修正動議的時候衝突地把最新的想法表達出來今天如果說任何的修正動議再修正動議提出來就是黑箱這是不對的我們沒有這樣主張我們認為是說本來修正動議跟再修正動議就是經過反覆的委員會的審查出了委員會經過協商之後大家覺得還有更精進的空間透過修正動議再修正動議提出來但是我們所說的黑箱的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2899.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2901.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
是近乎二讀跳過委員會不討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2902.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2931.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
禁錄惡毒交互協商的時候在協商又是過水然後突然之間全新的想法在當天處理的時候用修正動議再修正動議提出來更何況待會我們還等著看會不會有跑出更正版我們以為再修正動議就沒有了還可以再更正所以說不定待會跑出一個版本把我們的再修正動議並同國民黨的版本說又要公投綁大選又要投票前一日也放假 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2932.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2948.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
會不會跑出這個更正呢我們也不知道但是顯然的剛剛的討論內容請主席判斷一下似乎另外國民黨跟民進黨並沒有反對民進黨針對公投法條文我們在第二項增列一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2949.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2968.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
投票日公投票日及前一日並為放假日是不是沒有人反對那如果沒有人反對我是建議既然是草野協商我們就可以用剛剛的修正動議的方式來處理是不是這樣子這個就是修正動議或再修正的目的是透過協商的過程有共識的我們表達在同一個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2969.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2987.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那如果說還是有些黨人不同意那我們就可以用表決的方式讓我們對各項議案或者在胸針東引來進行表達各黨的意見來爭取社會的認同好不好所以我是建議是不是這個提案呢我們是不帶火氣純粹就意識規則來釐清過去的歷史事實以及意識規則運作的現況請我們主席來公裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2994.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3008.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我想現在沒有辦法達成共識台灣民眾黨團還是堅持要照先後的次序我想我們先把這個公投法我們先保留院會這點確定之後等一下等黃土昭進來的時候我們再看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3009.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3031.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們還有一個休息時間再溝通好不好那我們現在就謝謝謝謝中選會還有法務部司法院列席內政部的列席我們現在開始進行財化法的協商謝謝各位謝謝各位官員請回我們請財化法我們陳雪生27位委員所提財政收支劃分法第16條之一修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3032.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3033.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
請審議那我們現在請 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3051.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3075.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
以上三案 軍委院會晉覆二讀案已由國民黨團於10月11日召集協商並沒有達成共識我們今天非常感謝列席的財政部莊部長 歡迎主席總署的陳主席長 歡迎您國家發展委員會的劉專門委員 歡迎您法務部的廖參事 歡迎您好 我們現在請國民黨團協商的黨團請發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3085.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3113.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我覺得蠻遺憾才化法基本上變成民進黨違背賴清德總統莊嚴宣誓中央不要集權集權的改革宣誓的一場政治鬥爭就像今天為什麼要提出才化法的16條之一跟38條之二的修正條文事實上按照我們之前修正的才化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3114.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3136.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
本來行政院就可以分配再分配但是行政院就是硬要假裝內行裝外行但沒有關係你內行裝外行我們就把你內行裝外行的這個煙幕拆掉所以今天提出了這一個對離島來說非常重要的一個裁劃法的一個補正 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3138.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3163.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這個條文其實嚴格來講是可以不用修訂的但是是因為民進黨故意曲解法令然後來欺負我們的領導所以我們也可以稱這個條文也是一個叫防小人條款懂裝不懂 內行裝外行所以我們今天提出這個財化法的再修正的一個條文 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3164.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3174.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
好 那個民進黨團柯頓超請表達意見好嗎 謝謝我不知道羅志強委員在講什麼根本是外行轉內行 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3176.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3179.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這搞不清楚在講什麼話國民黨自己提案提錯了這根本就是外行專內行以後發言請注意你的邏輯思考好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3197.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3212.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
接下來請台灣民眾黨團陳昭志委員請發言我們就尊重國民黨的意見我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言完畢請財政部準備表達意見好嗎好 謝謝主席我們現在是因為很心平氣和配合我們院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3213.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3236.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
院長今天上午在議場後面的院長休息室也有一個非正式的朝野協商而且不只是朝野協商不是黨團之間的還跟行政院協商就是我們本院財政委員會的資深召委賴世保委員跟現任的召委林思敏委員特別就院版的財化法他希望院長能夠請行政院來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3237 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3262.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那顯然的院版的裁劃法在昨天院會通過公布之後其實已經引起了很多不同黨派地方政府地方首長的關注那麼這當中有很多是表達支持院版較為周延的做法那事實上其實賴委員跟林委員其實在院長面前表達說這完全是可以討論的因為他們也同意過去去年12月通過的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3262.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3282.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
跟上個星期通過的版本不管是舊版新版其實都留有一些問題存在就像今天我們現在在處理的這個財政收支劃分法第16條之一就有兩個版本還有一個38條之一是黨團的版本全部都在處理去年12月的那個版本它留下的公式錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3283.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3310.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
但是去年12月版本不是只有公司涉犯錯誤它還造成了地方政府的貧富不均加劇因此行政院版徹底的完整的周延的跟各地方政府的財政局長討論過之後提出的這個院版相對是周延的而且就總金額來講相較於原來就是去年版本所編定的明年度的中央政府總預算的統籌分配稅跟對地方政府的一般型補助計劃型補助金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3312.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3340.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
本來是明年的原來的是一兆一千多億現在如果根據院版重新設算會多了變成一兆兩千多億其實大家知道統籌分配稅款是我們各自財政收支方法討論的兵家必爭之地第二個就是水平的分配各縣市政府是不是能夠縮短大家的城鄉差距我們的經濟發展所以在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3340.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3342.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
原來看到的明年度的總預算中統籌分配稅 一般性補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3347.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3372.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
計劃型補助總TOTAL加起來地方可以拿到的是一兆一千多億現在院版的總加起來可以達到一兆兩千億那在這種情況之下當然地方首長不分黨派非常關心明年他們到底設算好可以獲得分配多少這個院長也知道所以呢院長在院長主持之下也承諾行政院會在下週二之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3374.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3393.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
將這樣的涉算的內容的數字提供給國民黨的黨團提供給賴世保委員提供給林思敏委員同時也提供給每個地方的藍營的縣市首長讓他們知道說一兆兩千多億分到你該縣市你可以比現在舊版的多分多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3393.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3415.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這不是很好嗎所以既然這樣子院長也有這個心我們希望院版的才化法能夠來將前面兩個版本更完整周延的把它安排進去所以我們希望爭取到下週是不是下週二之後我們排進下週五的議程我們下週可以討論那如果下週五院會交付委員會審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3416.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3442.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
可以這樣充分的討論那我們今天實在沒有必要急於再將原來去年12月的財政收支劃分法當中16條之一的這些公司設算之後只對單一設算錯誤去修正遠不如我們全面性的讓每個地方政府不分黨派 不分藍綠白通通可以增加他們所獲得到的預算分配我們是覺得是不是這樣的方式更為周延在這裡請國眾兩黨的黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3444.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3453.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
代表也能夠支持也懇請院長我們體察你的苦心啊對不對您這麼用心那我們希望能夠來成全謝謝謝謝嘉賓兄我們請財政部莊部長請簡單扼壓報告謝謝謝謝院長那我想去年12月三讀通過的財化法它的公式錯誤造成有345億沒有分配下去那現在院辦以及針對這個財化法整體全盤提出了一個修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3470.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3498.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
同時也對於去年通過的公式錯誤這個部分在我們院版裡面也有相關的條文給予去做補救的一個明確的一些規定這是以上補充說明也就是說在我們的院版裡面會對於這個去年12月通過的三四五一沒分配出去的部分也同時給予做解決 以上說明現在財政部的意思就是說本次會議就暫不處理但是國民黨團可能要再一次表達意見好 請國民黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3501.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3524.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我本来以为以前都是这个陈主席长在主导我想今天郭部长讲得更清楚所谓庄部长说这个去年财务法修正公示的错误这跟我们过去几次朝野协商陈主席长讲法又不一样了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3525.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3553.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以呢完全是要看這個卓榮泰院長怎麼指揮啊他們這些道具人就怎麼講上次明明就是說他們尊重立法院因為立法院沒有授權他們二次分配因為尊重立法院所以345億沒有去分沒完全沒有所謂叫做公事錯誤所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3555.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3581.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個行政院長期的造謠長期的攻擊 長期的抹黑讓這些政務官也自甘同流合污前一次協商講得很清楚說突然行政院尊重立法院我們通過了法 財政收支劃分法說我們沒有授權給你們持續分配到完畢好 你們上次說沒有授權你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3583.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3607.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以立法院上個禮拜五的修法很清楚你們看不懂我們就再修一次讓你看清楚什麼叫分配清楚同時我們在這裡再一次的嚴正的聲明立法院立法從來沒有什麼叫做錯誤是行政院假裝看不懂而且今天還講 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3610.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3633.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
過去尊重立法院因為沒有授權那請問一下立法院通過的裁判法通過的軍人加薪通過的警消退休準備率80%那為什麼行政院你一再強調對立法院的尊重講在嘴上在哪裡115年總預算送來在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3636.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3643.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
你們要踐踏全民的國會你們只是一個行政機關把自己當成太上國會我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3647.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3669.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
莊部長今天也開始改調性了跟總統他一樣 都向柯建民看齊柯建民 柯總召已經從良了 沒想到他們他們把柯總召Part 1現在已經Part 2了Part 1已經上升 我還沒講完Part 1現在又上升了還有另外更重要的真的 拜託一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3676.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3700.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
你們丟一顆正願板進來 烏灰啊 又是要再製造一個錯亂這個正願板 我說真的有像我們中幹事長講的這麼好 中嘉賓幹事長我真的覺得你應該回去跟周春敏參加初選這種人才啊 在立法院他埋沒了 死的都能講成活的假的都可以講成真的 以假亂真 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3702.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3723.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所謂行政院 行政院把立法院通過的裁劃法踐踏成什麼樣子說政院版會比原來的版本更好鍾嘉賓 鍾幹事長我真的佩服你把整個集權又集權 立法院通過的裁劃法去年通過了4100多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3726.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3740.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
能夠平均分配給全國各縣市直接照顧2300萬人的新版財務法檢查到計劃性補助扣掉2650幾億一般性補助款又刻扣了1300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3743.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3766.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
課扣了將近4000億真的了不起你們現在七搞八搞修完了才把4000多億被你們沒收了將近4000億然後現在再丟一個版本出來又把剩下的一般性補助款又全部沒收了全部沒收以後又丟到計劃型補助計劃型補助已經沒收一次現在又沒收第二次全部要跟你們三跪九叩手才拿到錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3768.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3776.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
你們越玩越大啦但是沒有關係你們既然正願版嘛去年七月就叫你們提出來限定九月以前要提出來你們終於 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3778.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3801.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
財政部 組織總署睡覺睡到現在才提出來你們多領的人民一年四個月的納稅人的血汗錢你們今天才睡醒要提版本從來沒有看過這麼怠惰的行政院這麼怠惰的財政部這麼怠惰的組織總署所以我們在這裡特別強調不要想什麼錯誤的立法 錯誤的公式不要再造謠你們不要學 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3802.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3816.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
現在都已經重量了柯總召你們不要再學以前那樣好 謝謝好 這樣好不好各位黨團幹部各位列席官員我想財化法我們並沒有達成共識我們有鑒於行政院版本剛送來本院 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3817.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3832.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
建議大家今天裁划法第16條之一38條之二院會處理的時候我們定期處理等行政院院版本進到本院進行處理的時候我們來一併處理各位黨黨幹部有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3833.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3852.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
今天不處理這個案子我們定期處理 民眾不同意我們火車已經開走了 他們太晚了我們不再讓他們上車 補票上車了那既然沒有辦法達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3863.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3884.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們堅持那現在我們沒有辦法達成共識我們就我們就提報院會處理現在沒有辦法達成共識 好嗎我們進入第三案謝謝財政部主席長的練習 謝謝謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3889.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3915.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
本院司法法治內政兩委員會報告並案審查鄭天才委員21位台灣民眾黨團張志仁委員等17位葉元之等21位委員及羅美玲等18位分別凝聚內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案本院台灣民眾黨團凝聚內政部組織法第五條及第七條條文修正草案請審議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3917.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3944.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我們現在 首先我們列席的有內政部政務次長馬次長您剛剛不是在這裡 您又 對內政部移民署林署長 謝謝行政院人事總署的張政務副人事長 歡迎你 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3946.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3958.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
全旭部法規司蕭專門委員歡迎您好我們請提案的台灣民眾黨團的代表請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
3964.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
3978.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
主席 各位黨團的總召們內政部組織法第五條這個部分是在新住民基本法在113年8月12日總統以 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
3980.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
3989.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
以公告依據第四條內政部必須設新住民私務專責中央三級機關這不是新的政策而是法律的義務真正的卡關不是制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
3996.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
3997.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
是依據就是說 額度已滿依中央機關的組織基準法三級機關 年額已經到70 已經提到71了在修法 我們會在爭取的年額之下我們已經增加71 明確保留一個專屬新住民發展署的 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4018.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4022.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
的席位在113年12月31號在台灣民眾黨還有我們國民黨我們有提出修正動議內政部一定要設一個三級機關這是最低的限度理所當然要修正然而我們吳斯亞委員就是在現場就沒有通過但是經過我們兩週後 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4045.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4048.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
就是我們院長就是說他會處理我聽了真的很感動所以終於在14年1月14日院長通過修正我們的那個動議在1月20號總統也正式公布了但是新住民發展署的名額也有保障但是到現在為止內政部組織法第5條 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4075.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4077.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
還是沒有修正所以今天我們就是要把就是內政部第五條要修正因為通過已經十個月了到現在我們內政部也沒有版本上一次協商的時候呢就是大家協商最後就是還有一條但是沒有最後沒有簽協商所以也延宕了行政的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4104.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4119.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以現在我們希望說我們就是這一條可以就是我們要求的是三個月內要執行所以當時協商的時候大家沒有同意以上報告 謝謝那國民黨團請表達意見 民進黨請準備我覺得這個法非常重要我支持我們民眾黨還有我們的張志文委員的提案來維護新住民的權益 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4132.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4135.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
好 謝謝民進黨張宏祿委員請表達意見這一個法在內政跟司法委員會我們其實都討論很久了大家其實對法條內容其實都有共識也覺得這是一個重要的里程碑不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4156.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4167.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那時候大家都有說因為你要設一個新的三級機關或什麼的你要給行政院內政部你要去調整嘛你不可以說這樣子你為了設而設結果什麼都沒有準備好那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4171.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4193.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們那時候就有說要給行政院時間因為你牽扯到財政人事等等的你要設立一個三級機關不是這麼簡單的所以我們那時候就是說施行的時間我們尊重行政院內政部大家那時候其實也有共識那你今天台灣民眾黨我不知道是為了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4193.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4217.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們大家的任期都還有兩年多耶那我們為什麼一定要去跟他說一定要三個月內那你三個月內我不知道是為了什麼大家那時候都有覺得說行政院讓他去處理你三個月我不知道台灣民眾黨你是在趕什麼時間我個人還是覺得就像當初大家的共識一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4218.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4234.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
法律條文大家都有共識了不要再去弄一個三個月我覺得這樣子反正大家都知道要成立了不要再去這個恆生之節啦我覺得這三個月行政院跟內政部也準備不及 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4234.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4249.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那你跟你新的新住民署跟這個移民署它裡面還有很多的業務要釐清啦除了人還有業務要釐清啊這個你說你三個月讓他們做到我覺得是強人所難啦好 那個蔓越中委員您要不要等行政部門表達意見後您再發言好嗎麻煩請內政部市長請馬市長請表達意見好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4261.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4279.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
主席 院長 還有我們黨團各委員我想內政部基本上對整個法案在當時我們協商的時候的內容是同意的至於有關於執行日期的部分其實也跟委員報告 跟罵委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4280.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4308.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我們在過去的法律的體力上或者說過去的這些行政部門在籌備新的機關的體力上大概都需要大概六個月的時間我們才有辦法去完成一個比較完整的規劃所以如果是三個月的話我們會很趕我只能這樣子跟委員報告那六個月的話會對我們來講比較有這樣的一個餘裕那對於本案的話基本上我們就尊重黨團協商的結果沒有特別的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4308.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4318.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好 謝謝馬市長那個麥玉禎委員二次發言之後請羅美玲委員請發言請麥玉禎委員請麻煩簡短二要好 謝謝主席因為為什麼剛才講是希望大家了解整個過程就剛才我們的就是張超偉講的我們講的是內政部的組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4330.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4339.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
組織法我們內政部的組織法是現在要講的是第五條內政部組織法現在不是說時間六個月我們是在去年13年8月12號我們基本法通過當時協商內政部長說一年內要去實施現在已經一年多了沒有再動 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4355.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4361.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
第一個 第二個說我們的組織 我們的70在增加71的組織法我們也增加了已經10個月了 不是只有6個月我們已經通過了 但是現在我們要求3個月是 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4377.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4391.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
多給你的三個月不是只要說你的六個月所以這個不是藉口所以我覺得是說我們今天談的是內政部的組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4393.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4414.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們第一個就是內政部的組織法 看要怎麼樣去通過為什麼要訂三個月 因為趕快騙嘛 一年啊一年就一年了 現在一年多了對不對 所以是問題是這樣子所以我不想讓你們再騙了 才要訂時間好 謝謝麥委員二次發言 我們請羅美玲委員請發言因為妳是提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4417.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4436.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好 謝謝主席其實像這個新住民發展署組織法也好或是說我們內政部組織法的第五條其實我真的很感謝我們所有三黨的委員其實這過程當中都是非常理性在做討論那站在新住民的立場當然希望能夠盡速來成立我們的專責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4438.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4458.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那當然像過去其實我一直都有找行政單位來做這個商量就是說像你們這個新住民發展署成立你需要一個怎麼樣的時間或是人力他們說當然麥委員希望三個月嘛那之前不管是國民黨的版本或是本席的版本本來是想說讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4462.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4475.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
當這個內政部有更多的時間讓他們去訂定這個時間可是我們也希望說希望他們來儘速完成這個署的成立那剛剛因為剛剛在開會的關係所以我該趕過來所以馬次長剛才提到說希望是 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4479.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4495.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
六個月是不是對 麥偉權如果是說六個月的話呢讓他們來成立至少還是有一個時間表而不是行政院定職我不想麻煩麥偉權能不能就是說這部分退一步來接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4496.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4524.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
對 那我跟你一樣其實我們都很希望新住民發展署的成立你也努力了這麼久只是說他們可能怕說三個月可能沒有辦法完成到時會有一些什麼樣的狀況因為他們已經也定出了時間就是六個月那我希望說我們都努力了這麼久那他們現在提出六個月那我不曉得委員麥委員這邊的想法是怎麼樣因為說過去我們在討論這個法案的時候大家都是非常的理性對 我是覺得說這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4526.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4553.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這部分的話看看麥偉文這邊的想法如何好 謝謝羅美玲發言都已經非常深入了幾乎也都達成共識麥偉文妳還要發言嗎我們沒有接受因為我已經給了就一年了就一年 超過一年了不是六個月還是三個月的問題是要不要做的問題而已所以我們才要定時間所以等一下對 真的是這個問題存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4559.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4584.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
各位所有法案通過就有行人定製啦所以沒有時候再去定幾個月啊所以我們今天是為了把這個法案完成既然這樣我們定六個月 你應該可以接受才對啦我們是要法 法案談同屆你深思一下法案通過也是你的演繹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4587.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4596.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
大家有共識的怎麼樣我想咬個耳朵咬個耳朵咬個耳朵啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4621.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4630.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那個我想麥委員跟羅委員你們協調完畢之後可以達成共識我們就簽了好嗎因為我們還有四條裡面大部分都已經達成共識只有一個條文而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4644.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4659.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為我們到現在都還沒有用午餐羅委員 麥委員 容我提醒一下我們麻煩掌握一下 副總長我去協調一下去處理一下吧現在沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4681.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4702.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那個羅美玲委員 蔓越真委員因為時間的關係我們沒辦法讓你們講我們下面還有重要條文要討論好不好如果達成共識我們就準備簽字你不達成我要宣布休息後面的法案都會延宕我們到現在都還沒有吃飯好嗎好你們討論我們進入第五案 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4703.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4725.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
本院內政司法法制委員會報告並案審查賴司法委員20位魯明哲等16位分別凝聚地方制度法第7條之1條文修正草案陳宇貞等18位委員凝聚地方制度法增訂第7條之4條文草案吳麗華高金素美委員凝聚地方制度法第83條之3 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4728.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4739.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
吳立華委員等凝聚地方制度法第52條及61條條文修正草案李坤誠等20位凝聚地方制度法第78條修正案李燕秀等16位 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4741.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4768.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
邱振均等16位徐巧欣等21位凝聚地方制度法第55條條文修正草案盧憲一委員等18位凝聚地方制度法修正草案蘇清泉等19位委員黃婕18位委員范雲等24位委員徐富奎等17位委員許智傑等26位委員分別凝聚地方制度法第33條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4769.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4783.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
二 本院徐宇甄等19位委員凝聚地方制度法第55條及56條條文修正草案審議案第三 蘇清泉等19位委員凝聚地方制度法第57條條文修正草案 請審議案我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4790.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4817.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
前述已於7月11號黨團協商之中通過第83條之7照高精素美委員所提再修正案通過本日協商會議協商保留之55條及56條我們現在請我們現在宣告一下今天列席的閣議員我們請內政部馬次長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4820.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4844.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
然後原住民杜章梅莊副主委歡迎您中選會王處長財政部陳署長還有法務部的林副司長權序部的蕭專門委員行政院人事總處的張副人事長國家發展委員會謝專門委員行政院主計總處陳專門委員一起列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4855.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4860.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我想這裡面有列席有關於有案的那個陳玉珍委員你請先發言好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4864.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4887.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們本席所提出的是第56條跟第57條的修正案就是說有關直轄市是副市長三人縣市的話是兩人然後再加上因為直轄市它有副秘書長但是縣市沒有所以就是增至副秘書長一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4888.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4906.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那這個修法的原因是因為就是說直轄市現在的規定跟縣市現在大部分都是以人口嘛人口一直是浮動的尤其現在少子化的情況下但是事實上隨著這個各方面的進步事實上很多的政務繁雜並不會因為人口變少而變得 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4907.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4935.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
業務變少所以我們想說就把它法制化一體適用比較容易這樣不用一直這樣在修法說現在200個現在250萬也不會有的縣市說為了要增加人就變成要再多牽人進來先進去出來這樣子那複密署長複密署長的這個部分事實上因為各個直轄市都有複密署長的編制那地方政府也需要這樣的來相助所以那這一次在提案的部分就是置複密署長一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4936.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4957.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
這個也是各個地方政府的期盼 以上謝謝好 謝謝陳昱臻委員的發言民進黨團要不要表達一下意見 請自家市增加三個我知道 我說過了 你們也知道自家市增加變成三個副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4964.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4966.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
謝謝柯總召表達意見 國民黨團陳雲總委請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4988.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5009.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們今天早上黨團討論過 我們就一致 跟國民黨意見一致好 謝謝陳昭之委員的發言那各位委員 我們現在那個因為在57條 今天又併了一個蘇軍銓委員的案子那個您要發言 好 宗嘉斌委員要發言 請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5010.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5030.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
待會那個是不是爺爺請院長因為今天我們才知道併了蘇清玄委員的提案他是在57條的第三項好那57條第三項的原來的條文呢他是說鄉鎮市公所的主密的這些一級主管呢他的一些規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5030.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5043.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那今天呢蘇委員的提案特別把人口數放在兩萬五千人以上至主任秘書一人那這個是其實現在啊現在是規定在執法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5044.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5064.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
規定在執法裡面現在他是把執法裡面的單獨某一項拉到母法來那這樣表示什麼呢表示以後只要這個兩萬五千人的人口數有要調整通通要來修法那事實上我們是覺得說方向上我們認為考量到目前城鄉的人口的兩極化 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5065.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5090.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
都市化的結果鄉鎮市的人口的確是在下降當中所以祖密的設置門檻往下調是一個合理的方向但是是不是要拿到母法來規範那會造成這樣的一個剛性以後很難隨著時事的變遷如果都市化越來越集中那你這個鄉鎮市人口又繼續下降那下次現在是我們如果要調這個人數不需要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5091.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5104.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
內政部那邊就可以調整現在這樣寫進去之後呢以後要調降啊都要修法所以是不是建議這個部分可以再思考一下因為突然之間併進來我們覺得是不是讓內政部有這個時間國民黨團請表達意見謝謝柯總召剛剛所表達的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5118.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5144.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
畢竟這個台灣正式推動六都以後2010年正式推動六都以後這個城鄉的差距不斷地拉大人口也不斷地向這個都市來集中所以各縣市的人口也隨著少子化不斷地這個人口不斷地不只外移而且出生率不斷地降低而且呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5145.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5167.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
各方面的资源有很大的这样的一个不足所以尤其现在要落实中华民国宪法保障的地方自治我们希望所有为民服务的工作能够更加的完整所以包括直辖市可以设置三位副市长 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5168.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5189.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
明确入法以外各县市政府也能够有两位的副市长或副县长也能够把他入法未来整个行政体系在现在明智大开名誉不断的提升所以为民服的工作而日益加重的情况之下能够有更完整的一个行政的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5190.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5209.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
體制跟編制來完成所有人民的這些提出的相關的這些陳情還有應該為民服務的工作我想這樣子是能夠更加的完整至於各鄉鎮這個是不是我們要把它調整到這個設置主任秘書設置主任秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5212.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5235.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
兩萬五千人還是兩萬人以上其實這個是可以討論的這一樣可以討論但是要交由內政部透過細則還是行政命令來處理的話那是不是能夠像在法律上一樣的這麼穩定我覺得大家應該去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5236.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5264.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
不要因為誰執政誰有什麼樣的一個考量那今天畢竟像宗嘉濱中幹事長在屏東我相信屏東人口也是在外移他有很多的鄉鎮人口也不斷地降下來基本上這是鼓勵鼓勵公職人員能夠到偏鄉去到偏鄉去就一個比較好的一個職等能夠來做好為民服務的工作我想這個也是鼓勵性質居多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5265.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5273.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我覺得民進黨團如果沒有其他的意見我們就順順的給他過也沒有關係 好吧好 陳醫生委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5275.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5300.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我補充說明一下因為蘇經緣委員有跟我提到這個是也是屏東的直接掌握重點請發言宗嘉賓委員會也是屏東來的請發言那這個是這樣子就是說現在事實上是有秘書嘛變成主任秘書那如果不修變成行政組織規則裡頭的話可能就會沒有辦法那個內政部的動作沒有那麼快嘛所以內政部所以我們就入法比較法治化嘛好 謝謝我請 內政部請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5302.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5321.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
院長主席還有各黨團委員大家好那我想對剛剛我們委員的發言裡面有關於這個偵測不管是縣市政府的副秘書長或者是說鄉鎮市區公所有關於主任秘書的部分內政部還是建議因為我們在地方行政機關組織準則裡面我們的彈性是比較大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5322.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5340.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
因為我們要隨時要修都是可以修的那如果立到法裡面的話他把他綁死這是第一個問題第二個是說我們如果把他立在我們的母法裡面的話他現在跟我們的行政準則行政準則裡面就會漢格因為我同樣的東西在母法裡面有然後在我的機關準則裡面又去定一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5342.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5368.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個會 這個會有問題那至於說有關於這個直轄市的這個部分基本上我們還是建議就是說按照人口的比例來設置那維持現狀這是內政部目前的一個立場 謝謝好 現在做宣告我們今天下午兩點半要進行討論事項大家對於協商的議案都還沒有辦法達成共識我們保留自院會進行處理現在協商會議 散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5370.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5374.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
院長那個可以了那個可以了不是我們可以簽 |