| IVOD_ID |
17055 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17055 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-20T08:35:24+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-20T12:10:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:34:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc56bfc183e580b28dcb5a50254e2c9b5185db5c09cad80ab7bd498cf96bab79a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「法院組織法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「法院組織法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。
三、審查委員翁曉玲等31人擬具「憲法訴訟法第十八條條文修正草案」案。
四、審查司法院函送「法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法」案。
【僅進行詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:24 - 12:10:00 |
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1633.86 |
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報告委員會初席委員9人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開會那首先先進行報告事項請宣讀上次的會議議事記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1635.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1660.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第九次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一四年十一月十九日星期三上午九時至下午一時十九分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室主席委員黃國昌委員等十二人請假委員莊瑞雄委員一人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等十二人列席官員司法院刑事廳廳長李大任等人主席汪釗琪委員小林 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1661.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1687.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項已宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請司法院副秘書長法務部部長法務部調查局局長行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官內政部警政署署長數位發展部國家通訊傳播委員會經濟部金融監督管理委員會個人資料保護委員會籌備處等舊太子集團涉詐案跨部會防詐及打詐成效以及參考新加坡打詐邊形入法之可行性評估進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1689.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1704.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本次會議由委員黃國昌等15人提出質詢委員林楚英 傅坤祺提出書面質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1708.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1729.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好 那麼請問各位上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏沒有 沒有的話我們議事錄就確定那接著就先介紹到場的委員以及應邀列席的官員首先介紹黃國昌委員然後林倩琦委員那今天列席的官員有司法院的副秘書長 王副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1730.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1754.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
還有法務部的黃謀信常務次長好謝謝那麼其餘的未介紹的列席代表呢就請參院名單就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本次議程討論四項有四案分別審查法案既有委員翁曉琳等18人所拟據的法院組織法第106條條文修正草案等三案行政命令一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1754.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1778.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
審查司法院含送的法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法那於提案說明及報告後那本日就僅進行詢答好的 那麼現在就先進行提案說明以及報告那麼現在先進行提案說明麻煩請林倩琪委員來代主席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1799.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1799.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1823.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1833.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
本席提出了有三項法案的修正分別是法院組織法的第106條法院組織法的第83條以及憲法訴訟法第18條的條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1840.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1866.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那麼本席之所以會提出這三個重要的條文修正案主要是有鑒於就是公權力應該要受到監督以及公平而我想這不只是針對行政權同樣的也要針對司法權而這正是現代法治國家的重要的核心原則那麼司法權作為國家權力重要一環它的運作以及過程應該要受 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1868.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1897.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
到最大程度向公眾開放那麼以接受全民的檢驗資訊越是公開透明那麼公眾監督就越能到位而司法的公信力才能夠真正提升那根據近年來多項的民意調查顯示其實國人對於司法體系的信任度長期都處於低點到現在好像還沒有看過司法的信任度有超過50%的那麼這種信任危機我想不僅是源於個案的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1898.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1921.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
更在於司法運作缺乏足夠的透明度以及可解釋性那麼讓人民對於法院以及檢察官的決策過程感到隔閡以及不確定那司法是無法獲得人民的信任將動搖國家根本阻礙社會的和諧所以呢今天排審這三部法案的修正草案最主要的核心的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1921.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1942.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
正視司法資訊公開這不僅是我個人長期高度關注的議題更是捍衛人民知的權利那麼這是民主憲政的基石在法治面上面必須完成的佈局所以本席這次提出的三條法律修正案目標就是要從三個關鍵層面 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1943.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1971.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
全面的強化司法資訊的公開性與可追溯性憲法審查的公開論辯偵查程序的及時監督以及重刑案件的歷史追溯那麼透過這個系統性的修法我們將會有效的將可以有效的保障人民的權利並且為提升國民對司法體系的公信力與信賴奠定堅實的基礎那麼首先本席提出要修改憲法訴訟法的第18條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1973.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1993.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
司法院 憲法法庭現在所做成的憲法判決其實是對於國家的信任秩序以及人民權利義務影響深遠由於目前的實務上對於憲法法庭的公開的書類範圍仍然有限制那導致當事人以及各界所提交的各種重要的書類包括像申請書 意見書 答辯書等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1994.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2013.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
可能都因為行政規定或是篇幅的限制而不予公開或是部分的公開還記得在去年國會改革事件案的時候憲法法庭當時就限制了專家意見書只能夠公開20頁那明明專家可能寫了30頁但是最後只公開了前20頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2014.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2036.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那麼在這樣的一個情況之下當然當時也引起了社會輿論嘩然那麼我想在沒有技術困難的情況之下這種限制已經是嚴重侵害了人民的知的權利所以本次修正草案是強調憲法法庭應該要在受理案件之後就要在官方網站公開各類的書狀全文 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2037.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2064.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這項修正案最重要目的就是希望能夠將各種重要的論辯依據能夠透明化供全民檢驗好 那麼第二個部分呢是本席提出了法院組織法第83條的修正那檢查機關它作為廣義的司法機關代表國家行使公權力行使偵查與追溯的權利對人民的權益影響很大但是現行制度呢卻僅規定在第一審裁判公開之後呢才可以公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2066.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2084.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
在第一审裁判书公开后才可以公开起诉书这使得公众监督长期存在的时间的落差所以本次的修正草案的重点就在于说侦查终结后已经没有侦查不公开的限制我们明确增订高等检察署以下的各级检察署 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2085.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2107.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
应该要在案件的侦查终结后要及时公开起诉书申请检疫的判决处刑书不起诉处分书以及还起诉处分书等等这些所有关键的检查书类提早公开这些书类直接是有助于社会公众可以及时的去检视检察官是否忠实履行他的法定以及客观的义务 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2109.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2129.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那么第三点本席提出的是法院组织法第106条我们知道从大法官113年宪判制第8号判决要求死刑一致决之后法官平易的内容的严谨性以及可追溯性变成是更为重要更为关键然而在现行的规定里面法院的平易部 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2130.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2148.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
只需要保存10年就可能會被銷毀那麼如果評議部的蔑視將導致我們無法確認死刑案件的審判過程譬如說是不是一致決等等這可能會嚴重損害司法透明性以及審判程序的正當性因此本次本席提出的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2148.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2165.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就是徵定經處死刑的評議部應該要永久保存那麼總之我想就上面的這個三項的修正案它的核心就是以司法權它上面三項的修正案它涵蓋了司法權最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2166.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2182.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這三個最重要的核心的三個面向我們希望透過這些法律制度的努力可以建構一個更為全面更為嚴謹的司法體系那麼讓人民的知的權利可以得到充分的保障好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝翁委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2199.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2206.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那麼接著請機關代表來報告每位發言時間三分鐘那首先先請司法院的王副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2215.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2229.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家早安本院奉邀前來貴委員會本人僅代表司法院就本日議題向貴委員會提出口頭報告深感榮幸敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2230.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2249.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
有關於法院組織法第106條部分那修法的內容呢是競表贊同但是要考慮機關共同性檔案保存年限基準已經在114年4月16日修正了那將此行評議部的規定呢永久保存因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2249.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2268.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
法組法是否還有再修正的必要也見請再酌法院組織法第83條的部分尊重全責機關法務部的意見以及貴院審議之結果關於憲法訴訟法第18條的部分修正草案擴大了公開事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2269.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2292.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是要考慮憲法法庭網站的書狀內容資訊龐雜 充斥過多和案件無關的內容另外處理公開還有限制公開遮掩的事項它將嚴重厚損大量審判行政資源影響憲法法庭審理運作效能且無異於民眾知的權利 時宜慎酌這個部分建請在於審酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2296.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2317.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
關於法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法的部分本院依據貴院修正的法院組織法第九十條第九項之授權針對法庭公佈的適當方式訂定了本辦法那本辦法在預告期間呢各界並無不同意見公佈後亦或朝也 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2317.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2338.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
多所肯定本院考量不論直播或者是延後播出都可以達到便利民眾了解法庭活動的目的但是直播方式不能夠進行後製也無法保障程序參與人要求變聲變相的權利和無法抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2340.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2367.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
有委員於協商過程中也一再強調提案條文使用的公開播送跟直播不同所以本辦法規定延後播出為公播的適當方式是符合立法目的的考量多數法律專家對於法庭播出提出疑議均未獲解決另外參考外國的經驗例如印度採取法庭直播但是因為直播影像遭到濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2368.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2393.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
剛剛才在今年的九月呢下令暫停所有的刑事案件直播因此本院認為公播制度俯實行上路應先採取最穩健安全的宣示判決後播出的方式待制度運行相當時日後可視實務運作情形滾動式調整公播時程以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2396.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2398.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 謝謝王副秘書長那接下來我們請訪問部的黃次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2406.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2429.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席各位委員各位先進今天奉邀列席貴委員會就法院組織法等修正草案請代表本部列席報告並備諮詢報告如下第一有關處史刑評議部因永久保存的部分剛剛如同司法院代表所報告的因為機關共通性檔案保存基準已經有新增項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2430.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2455.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
關於這個判決死刑這評議部應永久保存所以就這個是否有修正是必要本部尊重司法院及貴院的審查結果第二有關於這一個高等檢察署以下各檢察分署及檢察署要在偵查終結後公開起訴書及申請檢辦決處刑書不起訴處分書及緩起訴處分部分本部認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2456.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2478.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這不宜修正仍以維持現行規定為宜理由如下第一第一審公開判決起訴書已經足以發揮監督檢察官的功能並且兼顧無罪推定及當審權益的維護第二如果將書類公開的時間點提早至偵查終結前恐怕跟無罪推定的原則有違第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2479.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2499.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
偵查終結就公開書類可能會妨害後續偵查案件的偵查第四點如果把書類公開的範圍擴及到不起訴處分書還起訴處分書應該考慮到這是不是會跟偵查不公開原則有違而且會考慮到影響整個犯罪的起訴跟追訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2500.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2528.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第五 如果把書類公開範圍擴及到不起訴處分書還不起訴處分書應該要考量對訴訟參與者的名義隱私安全所產生的影響另外有關於這個訴訟法有關修正提交於憲法法庭的各類書類都應該要公佈所有的書類及全文的部分此部分涉及到司法院的審判實務職權本部尊重司法院及大院的審議結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2529.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2538.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
至於有關於這個法庭錄影公開播送的辦法這部分也是涉及到司法運營業務本部競表尊重以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在就開始進行詢答那首先先請第一位登記發言的黃國昌委員發言喔 抱歉抱歉我剛剛還少了一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2559.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2585.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
抱歉因為我剛剛機關代表報告之後我還要再詢問就是說請問現場的其他機關還有沒有要做口頭報告或是普通說明的因為有些機關已經有提出書面報告了如果沒有的話那麼我們機關代表的報告完畢之後就相當把相關書面內容就請各位參閱並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2589.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2604.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那麼提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢了我們現在就開始進行詢答那麼首先先請第一位的黃國昌委員發言謝謝對還有就是上午10點30分截止發言登記好請好謝謝主席麻煩有請司法院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2618.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2625.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
委員早副秘書長早延續上一次承諾質詢的主題你們答應我 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2626.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2652.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
要把你們比對的結果要提供給我因為之前說尊照辦理黃委員真的不好意思先請稍待一下因為剛剛又是我的疏失那麼我還要再宣告今天委員的詢答時間本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長然後上午10點30分截止發言登記那就請黃委員先開始 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2654.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2657.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
沒有關係延續上一次質詢的主題因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2658.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2687.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
之前問你115年施政計畫綱要跟114年施政計畫綱要我要你們回去比對你跟我說遵照辦理上一次講了一堆理由為什麼會大量的重複但是就拒絕提供比對的結果我們上次詢答的時候最後浪費了非常多的時間在這件事情上我今天不想再浪費任何時間了我只有一個問題比對的結果願不願意提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2690.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2715.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那個報委員在那個委員10月22號質詢就是本院的那個施政計畫兩個年度有沒有高度重疊之後呢那本院也以那個教育部的那個成功文章相似度比對系統來協助那個檢驗文本那那個檢驗的結果呢因為就是這個系統他是供那個學術使用的他是在偵測論文有沒有抄襲他事實上在講的是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2716.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2740.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
對不起啊 我只問你比對的結果有沒有要提供我不要浪費時間在這件事上比對結果已經在那個十月底的之後已經有提供給委員了你講的是我貼出來這個嗎是的就講一堆官話就是沒有要比對沒有關係啦 你的態度很清楚了我也知道今天我沒有要在這件事情上面浪費時間啊因為你們不提供也沒有關係啊我就自己做比對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2742.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2767.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
一模一樣的東西這麼簡單不用複雜的電腦軟體啦左邊右邊兩個相對一模一樣的字句用螢光筆標用紅筆標用紅筆標用紅筆標長得一模一樣嘛這不是封面啦這是內文啦這是內文啦請你們提供答應要提供不提供沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2769.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2796.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
司法院院會之前我說院會的紀錄願不願意公開你們跟我說願意公開最後也公開了我覺得非常好為什麼我覺得非常好司法透明嘛公眾才可以檢驗嘛那真的公布了以後大家也才知道司法院的會議沒有按照司法院會議規則每個月開一次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2797.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2825.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
原則上每個月開一次必要時可以加開過去三年每一年開四次大概一季開一次那每一次會怎麼開的我其實非常有興趣所以我就進去看了2024年施政計畫綱要司法院的會議會議的時間八分鐘八分鐘那天只有一個會議主題就是討論2024年司法院施政計畫綱要 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2827.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2844.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
可能是會前的準備非常的充分大家藉由歷次的會前會 個廳式的討論已經充分的溝通交換意見了所以那一次8月16號禮拜三上午10點司法院201次會議紀錄裡面開會的時間到10點8分就散會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2850.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2878.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
2024年的施政計畫綱要是透過8分鐘的時間討論通過的那我就很好奇啊好奇這個施政計畫綱要因為我如果比對2024 2025兩者之間相似的比例啊高達九成以上那我又再看了一下你們2023跟2024就再往前一年嘛施政計畫的綱要我看到了一模一樣又跟前面一樣繼續抄 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2880.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2893.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
繼續抄這個比對一點都不複雜既然是用抄的跟我上次質詢的時候所提出來的事情一樣沒有什麼好懷疑的因為是用抄的用8分鐘的時間討論剛剛好而已今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2897.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2915.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們的主席針對有關於憲法訴訟法相關的條文提出修正討論條文的時候我們再來討論我第一個問題是憲法訴訟法第17條說憲法法院應將申請書送達相對人請問這條規範的意思是什麼這個我請那個廳長回覆好嗎好 可以來請廳長這條規範的意思是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2925.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2951.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
有關於那個憲法訴訟法第17條的規範議旨是在給予相對人就是知悉申請人所提出的意見那為什麼要用宋達的因為這個 我知道那個您廳長嘛是對 我知道廳長應該程序法學訴訟法學造詞都非常的深 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2952.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2979.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
第一個是我們在討論有關於程序基本權的時候程序基本權收受送法的權利就是要讓他知道裡面的內容這個是程序基本權所當然當事者權的核心當事者權的核心跟在場見證權還有見證閱覽權共同成為當事者權核心當中的核心這個收受送法的權利憲法法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2980.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2995.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有按照這個法條在進行嗎依照該規定的話憲法法庭是應將申請訴訟如果沒有送達呢如果沒有送達會產生什麼樣法律的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2999.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3024.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個部分的那個法律效果在個案上面在個案上面或許會需要是個案的情形而定就很簡單嘛今天有人申請嘛申請人的申請書應該送給相對人嘛相對人說我沒有收到啊到開庭的時候開延遲辯論的時候相對人還是說我沒有收到啊那這個時候憲法法庭該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3026.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3052.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
跟委員說明因為這個部分的效果那會大法官這個部分會依照他們審議的職權去判斷對不起 這個是空話啦這個真的是空話我們訴訟法上面如果有規範程序上面所應該進行的程序那程序如果沒有遵行的時候那應該要怎麼做這個是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3054.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3074.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
在訴訟法上面一定有訴訟法的效果啊如果沒有訴訟法的效果憲法訴訟法17條不就成為拒文了嗎請問訴訟法的效果是什麼個案判斷如果委員在這個地方提到訴訟法上面的部分的話那我們現在在討論的不就是憲法訴訟法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3076.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3102.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
是 在訴訟法上面如果說相對人已經可能可以知悉就是申請人的申請意旨的話那或許在這個部分可以作為補正但是來來來 17條 應將申請訴訟達給相對人這是法院在踐行給相對人程序基本權的保障跟落實的時候的核心條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3103.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3129.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
收受申請文書的送達 我才知道他申請了什麼我才知道我防禦的對象 防禦的範圍不管在刑事訴訟 民事訴訟 憲法訴訟 道理一模一樣當然為什麼今天特別提這件事去年舉行憲法訴訟的時候我是代表立法院的相對人 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3130.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3157.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我跟審判長表示我根本沒有收到申請書審判長說你可以上網去看可以上網去看上網上面有公告公告你可以自己去看那我的問題來了我學訴訟法學這麼久原來我們對當事人收受送達通知的權利變成的是自己要上網去看我完全聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3159.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3186.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個是我們憲法法庭所表現出來在落實程序基本權的態度嗎委員該部分在該案中審判長已經有所指示是那書記聽這邊作為一個補助單位我們不宜再做多對呀但是他的指示就是一個最錯誤的示範他的指示就是一個最錯誤的示範一個要捍衛憲法價值的憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3189.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3213.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
連憲法訴訟法都不遵守這就是我提出質疑的地方為什麼這件事情跟翁委員今天所提出來修正的草案有關係因為他要我上網去看嘛我的確有上網去看啊但上網去看的時候沒有復建沒有復建 完全沒有復建 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3215.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3237.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
而重點中的重點是什麼申請人申請的標的也就是憲法訴訟的訴訟標的在申請書裡面根本沒載明在申請書裡面他說這次訴訟的標的請看附件然後附件又沒有上網作為一個相對人 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3240.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3262.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
不要說一般法院開庭一般法院開庭去開庭以前訴訟標的是什麼都還沒有特定就已經夠誇張了更何況是憲法訴訟憲法法庭先違反他應該要送達的規定自己踐踏憲法上面所應該要保障的程序基本權 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3264.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3286.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
說你可以自己上網去看那上網去看訴訟標的特定在申請書裡面也沒有寫完全規定在附件當中我完全不知道原來我國的憲法法庭進行的是如此的鬆散對於所謂程序基本權的保障跟尊重是如此的落後讓人非常的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3289.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3317.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
實際間的關係剩下包括今天法庭直播的部分為什麼台灣民眾黨團要求退回我也可以先預告我們還有配套修正的法案在接下來有關於法院組織法裡面司法院的規則制定權司法院的規則制定權回到像聯邦最高法院一樣Rule Enabling Act |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3318.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3344.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
國會不應該只有退回的權利我們下一次直接討論條文的時候再來申請好 謝謝黃委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言好 謝謝主席那有請司法院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3349.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3373.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
副秘書長剛剛有人要跟你深究關於法庭直播法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法那他現在走掉了我們就來深究我們來看一下荒謬的修法可惡的修法沒有邏輯的修法然後結果司法院變成好人好事代表幫他們做這個很棒的實施辦法挽救了非常多的危機我們來看一下上一次呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3379.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3381.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我的投影片 沒關係字都不見了沒關係我直接講給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3384.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3412.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
當時在這個法庭直播的時候吳宗憲召委召開了一個公聽會在公聽會上有非常多專家學者提出三大重點沒關係我直接講給你聽第一個大家擔心法院變成秀場就如同剛剛有很愛作秀的委員第二個有人擔心影響司法的審判影響法官還有影響國民法官的心證還有很擔心如果現場的直播所有的法庭陳述會變成全民公審還有有非常多學者專家擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3413.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3442.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
濫用處理機制也就是說現場直播的東西會不會被惡意的剪接惡意的操控輿論甚至造就地下賭盤製造輿論風向而且沒有辦法確認訴訟參與者的個資會在什麼時候在什麼地點會用什麼方法被不當的揭露而法院淪為秀場更是荒謬更很有可能變成被告或者是律師的步道大會甚至檢察官跟法官會想要透過一些案件確認自己的歷史定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3442.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3463.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
而且呢如果在法院的庭上可能原本的簡便雙方訴諸對象會從法官變成全國人民這些所有荒謬修法的專家學者給予的理由呢很感謝你們你們在你們的公開播送實施辦法裡面呢做了非常多的調整跟修正我們來往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3464.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3479.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
之前還有檢察官協會提出質疑他們說民眾黨提出來的草案內容文藝不清例如說法庭直播定義不明公開播送的範圍跟定義也不明雖然提升司法透明度是國人的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3480.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3500.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
可是當時他們指出不管是國民黨或是民眾黨的草案內容都有非常多亟待商榷之處也就是說大家都在意公平正義大家在意社會秩序大家都更在意當事人權益也在意司法透明但是修法不是這樣亂修不是這樣以為自己修的都是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3501.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3518.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以我要說當時在禁覆二讀之際就有非常多的民間團體站出來呼籲除了不在委員會實質討論之外禁覆二讀程序也非常荒謬甚至到了黨團協商的時候我們看到當時的國民黨副書記長而且是首席的副書記長羅志強在協商的時候也說 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3521.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3546.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
大家可以把這部法案當作提振司法公信力的契機而他自己也解釋了可能是當時被罵太兇他們自己知道轉彎他們就說公開播送有兩種方法第一種叫做直播第二種叫做延遲直播希望大家不要把人民視為蒙古好像看到法庭運作現況就會造成審判不公羅志強說他要為台灣人民報區 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3547.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3574.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我才要為台灣人民報區荒謬的修法現在司法院好不容易弄出一個版本來處理所有剛剛學者專家跟人民的疑慮結果還有委員嗆聲說他不滿意你們的版本他要代替你們操作一個更好的版本我實在是難以想像我們接下來立法院會看到什麼公開實施辦法是由國民黨跟民眾黨團公開訂定的非常非常的荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3577.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3605.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我沒有想到他敢跟你講這個事情我覺得他都不願意面對自己的困境好剛剛是民眾黨的總召他所說的我們來看一下當時民眾黨的立法說明裡面他們怎麼說他們說至於所謂的適當方法要看該案件實際需求而定不限於將錄音錄影的內容即時公開播送也可以選擇延遲公開播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3606.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3627.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我不確定國民黨的委員跟民眾黨的委員是不是忘記自己說過的話了明明說過公開播送的方法有兩種羅志強說了民眾黨在自己的立法說明也說了可以延遲公開播送而這一切都是他們自己曾經說過的話他們可能已經忘記我們再次提醒他們所以我要再度感謝司法院提出這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3628.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3655.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法裡面做了非常多的調整來協助挽救他們修法的荒謬我來跟大家報告包含第三條提到錄影的時候要單一鏡頭定向定焦拍攝不得特寫而且不得拍攝國民法官我覺得這個非常重要到了第四條我們就說可以用適當的方法實施公開播送好中間呢我們再看一下大家擔心的還有什麼到了第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3658.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3676.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
當法院審理涉及重大公共利益或者是社會矚目案件的時候要審酌有沒有妨害國家安全公共秩序 善良風俗或者對程序參與人以及他人的生命 身體 隱私 營業秘密或是其他權益造成損害的疑慮的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3677.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3704.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
而且不會妨礙審判程序的公平性的這些我們就可以依照這些來去公開播送謝謝你們排除了所有大家會擔心的事情可是回到當事人本身他可不可以主張我的權益我要自己保護所以他對於相關錄音錄影公開播送的裁定得為抗告所以我們也確保了當事人的權益再來你們還提了一個非常重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3705.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3725.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
如果有當事者或者是訴訟的程序參與者提出說請幫我變身變相或者是讓我的樣子不要被別人第一時間看出來才去做公開播送這個應該也是經過非常多討論對不對不管是變身變相或者是去識別化不要讓人家第一臉就認出是我到第11條 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3727.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3752.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
你們還說當法院裁定准許公開播送之後如果認為有不得或不宜公開播送的情形法院可以依照職權裁定不宜公開播送所以一樣留一個退路給法院這邊還有相關的言辭辯論錄音錄影要在案件裁判宣示或公告後播出相關的時間點你們也寫得非常非常清楚了最後一個最重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3753.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3762.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
第13條 依照本法所為的公開播送要在司法院指定的網站或平台為之好 所以你們開始準備這個平台或網站了嗎開始準備了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3765.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3783.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
不好意思我講這麼多都沒有跟你講話因為我要說的是非常荒謬的修法國民黨跟民眾黨不願意承認專家學者提出質疑那現在司法院幫忙捕破網提出這個好的公開播送實施辦法確保人權確保所有的疑慮不要發生但很荒謬很可惜的是繼續聽到民眾黨的委員繼續大聲的怒吼說這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3788.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3815.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
他們不滿意他們不喜歡他們想要把手伸進司法院在公開播送實施辦法我不知道之後我們會看到什麼樣的播送辦法我要問的是所有剛剛我所說的事情侵害人權的部分判決後公開播送用適當的方法你們花了多少時間討論然後最後討論出這樣的結果可不可以最後讓複密署長來說一下好 那個第一個謝謝委員幫那個司法院所提的這個辦法做了一個非常完整的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3816.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3842.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那再來就是說委員所垂詢的這個部分呢因為當時就是這個法律在立法院通過之後呢只有三個月的上路期那所以那個時間真的非常短相較於其他的重要政策通過之後的那個準備期那所以我們非常那個密集的就是一通過之後呢就是我們司法院的一級主管就是由我召集我們就把所有相關的這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3843.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3862.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
可能的就是不管是在技術面或者是說在怎麼個可以讓他那個一個減低最低衝擊就是可以確保這些當事人的那個權利跟審判的這個公正性方面朝這個方向去做了一個修法然後之後就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3864.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3888.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
主責的私情廳就依我們所討論的這一些方向擬了一個草案然後之後分別在8月26跟9月5號的時候去會司法院內的個廳還有相關的這些法院像最高法院 最高刑或者是懲戒法院讓他們表示意見他們也非常周延的回饋了我們很多豐富的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3889.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3918.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那我們就是在做了一個修正之後呢提出了一個版本在9月24號預告那預告各界沒有意見我們內部又再做了一次討論之後才那個訂稿那我稍微花一點時間補充就是說因為有那個委員關心說為什麼我們沒有提出那個院會那我想說明的是因為依那個司法院會司法院的那個會議規則第四條就是議決事項它並沒有包括就是這個行政命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3919.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3935.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這個是不經過院會的那司法院的這樣子的一個規定呢它也不是獨特的它事實上像行政院跟監察院他們也是採取一樣的那個規定那最後我要強調的是就是說我覺得立法權跟那個司法權呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3936.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3963.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我覺得是彼此那個尊重然後就是在憲政底下我們這個辦法呢它絕對是依照母法的那個授權規定那個底下就是來做一個規定雖然司法院當時在政策面我們是才反對那但是立法院一通過之後呢我們絕對是尊重那但是前提就是最終判決跟司法行政呢司法院要付最終的結果所以我們是為了一個最妥適的結果所做的這樣一個辦法以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3963.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3984.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
好 謝謝副秘書長的說明我時間到了但是我想我就用一句話做結論這一屆立法院一直以來都是藍白在製造問題而民進黨團跟所有的行政機關都在努力解決問題如同剛剛副秘書長您所說的兩院應該要互相尊重但很可惜的是有的立法委員以為自己很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3985.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4007.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
而且比司法院更大所以他認為你們的行政命令在母法授權可以的允許的情況下他們還是要動手改相關實施辦法我不確定之後這樣的程序主席您要怎麼處理不過我希望我還是要再度呼籲所有的藍白立法委員對於這個行政命令如果有任何的意見或者是你們認為這個版本不是你們原本所要的那我認為應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4009.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4029.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
當時在修法的時候就應該要好好討論我們絕對贊成陽光照進法庭我們絕對贊成更多司法透明但絕對不是用荒謬粗糙而且沒有邏輯的修法現在甚至還要伸手干預行政命令的方法來維護所謂的司法透明以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 接下來我們請王逸川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4051.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4056.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們請這個副秘書長好 請王副秘書長委員長好 副秘書長我先針對這個翁委員提的這個法院組織法第83條裡頭關於這一個不起訴處分書反起訴處分書的這一些公開這些事情不知道你們有沒有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4080.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4102.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員因為這個部分是屬於法務部的權責所以我們司法院來回覆嗎還是請法務部我們先尊重他們 法務部好 謝謝委員關於這個當然本部在報告裡面講到就是本部認為現行的法院組織法在第一審裁判後我們起訴處才跟著公開現行法是不需要修正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4102.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4127.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那我是說這個不起訴處分書不起訴處分書我們也認為就是說不起訴處分書他跟環境處處分書即使在偵查終結的時候他有可能經過申請在意再發回又回復到原來的偵查狀態所以這個時候如果偵查終結就公開的話有可能會影響到後續檢察官的偵查或者是偵查不公開那如果不起訴處分書對方也沒有在意啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4128.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4157.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那還是不能公開對 那因為不起訴處分基本上它是它會裡面有很多個人的隱私在裡面因為它畢竟不是一個有罪的沒有經過檢察官認定起訴的事實那更何況事實上法院在實務上非常多人利用訴訟程序進行相關的濫訴濫告如果所有的處分書都公開的話裡面有非常多足以辨識個人資料的個資可能會出現所以本部是這方面有些疑慮所以這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4158.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4184.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
第二點就是說如果全面性的公開我們現在起訴書公開的話我們一年起訴書公開的話將近有27萬件如果未來含不起訴書公開的話我們一年終結的案件將近七八十萬件那未來這個會引起我們檢察機關行政上會非常大的一個負擔好 了解 謝謝你那接下來關於這個所謂的法庭直播我再請這個複密跟我們的庭長 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4187.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4211.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
因為我看到你們有提了一個相關的辦法那最主要是希望這個公開播放這件事情未必要即時的直播那裡面裡頭也提到因為它可能會涉及到譬如說這個相關的答辯過程中可能搞不好涉及到國家的安全相關的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4213.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4236.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
直播出去就不會有了或者是說裡面有一些涉及這個相關的隱私說出去也不會有了那這個部分哪一些事情是你們現在認為如果直播出去就慘了就這個事情可能跟本案有關對不對然後也許這個相關的人就講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4237.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4245.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那講了之後法官來不及阻止可是全部都出去了有哪些事情是你們現在最擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4247.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4274.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
其實委員剛才就已經列舉了非常豐富的資訊了那另外我覺得就是還有一個場景就是說因為現在不只是台灣全世界那個自媒體都非常發達那我們的審理我們並不是一天就會結束的我們是會延續一段期間那如果說你一邊播一邊這些自媒體他們就開始做各種評論了或者是把這些證人的這些講的話就全部交叉比對就是去做什麼什麼的話那這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4277.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4298.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
或者是這個資訊還經過剪接他事實上不是真實資訊因為事實上只有少數人會進到法庭嘛那所以就是說就是這樣子的一個互動過程呢他事實上對於審判的這個干擾某程度就是某程度事實上是會衝擊到所以有可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4299.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4307.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
就直接互動然後就直接公審在外面就直接公審這個法官你問那個什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4309.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4332.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
你這個檢察官問那個什麼問題你這個辯護律師講那個什麼話你這個證人亂講話 對不對這些都有可能在外面馬上進行評論嘛是 那可能第一個證人來了之後下一庭的第二個證人也許嚇得根本就不敢進到法院來然後呢 這個評論完之後搞不好就直接誤導了大家是的然後呢 可能法院都會被包圍是 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4334.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4362.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
就說那花刮 問那什麼問題問這個會不會痛 把它圍起來就這些事情如果是即時的播出那這個可能會有後續的這些疑慮那現在你剛也提到有些國家過去曾經也做過直播後來在今年的九月這個事情就沒有即時的來播那他們還是用延後播出嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4363.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4389.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們在就是我們今天報告中提出的那個印度為什麼提印度因為那是一個最新的資訊那之前有委員也有把那個當作例子說這些國家都已經播了那我們剛好就是九月才剛剛的資訊他們就是因為產生了太多以前我們就是一些學者專家所想像的就是從法理上去想像說可能會有什麼問題那在印度就都發生了所以說他們在九月的時候就下令 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4389.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4414.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
刑事案件就全部暫停 就是暫停實施直播那現在延後播因為你們在第十條你們提出來的第十條在延後播的時候你們是說法院得依職權或程序參與人的請求對特定的範圍或內容的錄音錄影予以遮蔽聲音影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4416.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4434.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個部分是當事人的請求那法院可不可以自己處理我當事人都沒意見就是說這個播出去沒意見可是法官審理或法院的這個過程他覺得說這個雖然當事人沒意見可是我們還是覺得這個不可以出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4436.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4447.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因为可能双方当事人都觉得这个事情也没有很严重那法院可不可以自己认为这个事情很严重就把那一段遮蔽或者直接把它剪掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4449.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4467.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
謝謝委員那個垂詢其實這個規定它是在母法中就是在那個法院組織法90條的那個第三項就已經有那個規定那就是當時的規定就已經說是依申請或是依職權所以我們在那個授權的這個規定第10條裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4469.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4498.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
也有很清楚的很明白的就是說法院可以依職權除了一當事除了依程序參與人請求之外法院是可以依職權就是為了這個公義就是把它那個變成對 那就變成你們的權力會變很大是 應該說法官是會合理的合義務性的採訪對 那這個就會出現爭議就是說法官認為這一段不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4499.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4519.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
出去那這個當事人覺得說這一段怎麼被剪掉了這一段才是關鍵會不會有這種狀況那個保護委員這個他所規定的是變聲變音那我說影像有一段就不見了遮蔽影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4523.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4545.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
譬如說我舉一個例子譬如說這個當事人就講了一個人事實地務那就涉及了國家安全那當事人就講出去他不以為意然後兩兆都不以為意但是這個法官認為這個事情不能講那法院會不會說那我接下來的延後的撥出我就把那一段剪掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4546.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4563.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
或者是說好 另外一個狀況是說你們也認為無所謂結果你們也沒剪 就出去了那出去之後 譬如說國安的單位說這一段怎麼可以播出來那到時候誰來決定哪一段可以被剪掉 哪一段不能被剪掉這個怎麼處理我讓廳長回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4569.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4591.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
謝謝委員 其實委員講到真的是一個問題但是因為公佈已經是立法院這個貴院通過的條文所以我們只能盡可能的在辦法裡頭做一些規範來降低但是一旦法官做了公益的決定把某一部分做遮蔽或者是甚至我們也有規定說如果遮的太多已經都不完整了 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4592.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4609.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那大家看到不完整的反而誤解了整個程序審判的內容這時候可能乾脆這個就不要播出了那這些東西而後反對的人一定會有不同聲音就會產生爭議這一塊我沒有意見我另外一塊是說如果這一段就根本不能播 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4611.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4627.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就是不能講 不能播那大家都不以為意就真的播出去了接下來會有什麼樣的機制說這個事情以後不准再撿這種東西出來給大家看第一個就是說如果真的播出去了當然我們要有立即的一個補救措施譬如說下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4628.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4648.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
但是如果已經造成損害的時候但是要有一個機制嘛就是說要有一個機制說這種情形不要有一個平易的機制說這種情形以後不可以再然後我們這個委員會就做成一個決定說以後這種的不能再播了就是說這個機制如果沒有減多了 減少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4649.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4671.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
都會出事嘛就是說這個法官也覺得無所謂法院也覺得無所謂可是外界假設國安單位說這個不行講啦你們怎麼都覺得這個可以播出去假設這樣就是不可以播出去可是你們都不以為意那你們也都把它播出去了嘛那後面應該要建立一個這種相關的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4672.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4688.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
提醒或者是規定就是說他可能會被送一個評議說這種袋子以後涉及到這一塊的記得這一塊要剪掉否則會直接出去這個我是接受後續如果有這樣的討論你們要把這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4690.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4710.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
多檢的大家會有意見 多檢的就不完整你就過去不要公開就好了 每次你來我們就看不到了那第二種是大家都覺得這個可以出去可是會有一些單位就覺得這個不可以出去啊這個出去會出事啊那這件事情是不是要有另外一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4711.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4735.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
就是要去我們我們這個以前就NCC會有那個新聞的評議的機制嘛這一段可以不可以可是法院後續是也要這樣的一個機制把可以跟不可以啊用比較這個合理的方式然後呢也許做一個規範這樣子這個你們再回去就後續如果有相關的討論的時候把它納進去討論好不好謝謝你們 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4744.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4746.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好 接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們翁昭偉我們先請一下我們法務部次長好 請黃次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4764.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4785.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 次長好 本席今天要針對未成年性犯罪被告來延長追訴權的這個問題來跟您就教這個有關於兒少保護還有涉嫌涉及重大制度面的這個部分這個未成年性犯罪被害人追訴時效的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4786.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4810.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
本席覺得有一些制度面還需要再進一步討論的本席先說明對這個部分的一個看法我覺得是有一點點缺陷我們的刑法第八十條追溯期間的一個制度沒有考量未成年被害人在心智發展保護意識跟自我認知上的一個弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4812.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4831.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
舉個例子高雄的國小體操的性侵案件有許多被害者追溯期已經過了結果沒有辦法就責然後在前幾年2023年又有知名的藝術家性侵未成年少女的案件同樣也是因為追溯期 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4833.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4851.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
要到了檢方就沒有起訴甚至有很多兒少的被害人到成年以後才發現自己才理解自己被性侵害但是法律卻要求他們在當幼年時就要能夠勇於發聲這個是今天本席要討論的一個主軸 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4853.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4873.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這讓人家感覺是一種法律上的殘酷把未成年的被害人要求的跟成年人一樣有所謂的性自主認知或有維護能力有社會支持系統的這個能力其實是有點社會的不正義許多性侵害的一個加害者常常都是被害者的一個親屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4874.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4891.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那麼一個孩子如何能夠在追溯期間鼓起勇氣或者是追溯期到了那國家就只能放過這個加害者那這個是在法律上有點不合理那本席就針對法務部目前的一些相關草案有一些看法然後來救教您 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4892.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4920.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那個法務部的版本是在第80條這邊以不記錄期間作為一個處理那本席看來很像追溯時效的制度上的一個時效停止所列的一個障礙是由那既然刑法的83條已經有時效停止的一個制度那麼本席請教法務部是不是認為應該將未成年人沒有辦法有效行使權利的期間也明顯納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4922.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4944.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個該法條然後讓這個合法體系一致那麼第二個部分是法務部的版本僅涵蓋了刑法中屬於性侵害犯罪的罪名但是兒童及少年性剝削防治條例中強制性交強制猥褻的犯刑同樣涉及很嚴重的一個性侵害那本席在這邊請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4946.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4970.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個部分為什麼沒有跟衛福部來會商來一併研議是不是延長追訴時效那麼次長 法務部是不是可以支持把兒少性剝削條例中的性交與猥褻犯罪納入追訴期延長的範圍把罪犯與刑法性侵害本質完全相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4970.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4985.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
的東西一起納入那本席認為這個修法可以一步到位那您的看法呢好 謝謝委員的這個質詢關於這個本部當然也贊成這個未成年他被性侵的話他的追訴權要做特別的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4986.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4998.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
在他的渠道上就如同有兩個途徑第一個途徑就是說我們本部所提出的草案就是說他在未成年在未滿20歲之前我們不開始計算他的追溯權換句話說從20年才開始計算我們80條的追溯權時效這當然是第一種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5004.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5021.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這也是本部目前送到行政院的版本所採取的方式剛剛委員所提到的就用這個追逐權時效停止的觀念可不可以本部也評估過因為停止它是一個非常複雜的在實體法上非常複雜的一個計算的方式它停止之後一段時間還有消滅的問題它會又繼續再接回來計算的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5026.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5049.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那其實對這個未成年人的保護其實不見得比較周圍所以我們現在在經過政策上評估之後送到行政院行政院基本上我們審訊的條文基本上會從他滿20歲之後之前都不計算從20歲之後才開始計算我們刑法上所有的追訴權其實這也是參照外國的立法力外國有立法力也是這樣子計算的那這個部分你們有跟衛福部討論過嗎有請他們一起針對這個部分來做一些意見的陳述嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5056.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5074.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
在行政院的討論的時候倒是沒有但是這整個修法過程當中我們也有對外公告我們有發布相關新聞稿其實衛福他們應該會知道如果相關建議會回答我們的問題我想在過程當中如果他們能夠參與或許他會比較真正的Pay attention |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5074.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5099.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那委員你提到的其實是我第二個要回答的問題啦就是說為什麼特別條 可不可以有關特別法或性剝契防制條例裡面要不要做特別的規範為什麼我們刑法只規範我們刑法本身沒有去規範性剝契防制條例的時效的計算這就涉及到衛福部他本身他要在自己的 而主管法規裡面性剝契防制條例裡面去訂他的追訴權時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5100.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5123.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那你們在過程當中其實可以讓他知道你們針對這個主法的一個概念然後他要訂定的時候知道你們這樣一個修法的精神沒問題 跟我們報告 政委 我們在新院審查的時候政委已經也有指示要跟衛福部溝通 衛福部其實他本身也訂掉了要在他自己所主管的法規這個性差異波解條例裡面去訂他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5123.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5152.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
但是我是覺得在過程當中你們如果可以在這一段先有一些溝通那彼此會知道你們在法條上的一個解釋概念 限制然後跟可以做的一些空間公務員是知道他們也應允要在他自己的主管法規裡面去訂自己的追溯檢視效但是這就有點這個各行其道啦就是說如果在前面大家可以多一些溝通那可能在訂定的時候不管你是這個母法或者是他們去訂定的行政命令那可以知道這樣一個立法或修法的一個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5153.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5170.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
比較符合這個法本身的一個想法跟精神所以比較少在行政命令上你會覺得說好像母法跟行政 對不起所以相關的這個法規裡面跟我們原有的意旨會有比較大的一個差距這是本席的一個最主要一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5170.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5175.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
對 應該是不會這樣因為他們已經充分知道而且他也要在自己的法律裡面請你們後續來跟本席談一下你們剛才考量有關於停止跟消滅的這個部分是在這裡面你們是怎麼考量的然後本席講的這樣一個概念我想要聽一下這個相關的一個你們當時的一個考量好 沒問題那最主要因為那個兒少被害人其實他需要一些時間但是現在感覺上有一些期限的一個追趕 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5199.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5227.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那麼制度最大的責任是不要讓這個被害人在時間或加害人在時間之後在時間後面會躲避責任我們要把真正的兒少權益放在第一位所以本席這邊提出來就是他們其實在當時不見得知道或許是後續如果沒有一些可能性或者被教導他們其實不盡然知道那兒童時期發生的事情可能是對他們本身是有影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5229.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5257.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那接下來這個部分就請你們後續這邊給我做一個解釋好不好那對於已發生的跟追溯時效尚未完成的這個案件那到底對於應該適用新法或舊法那你們的草案在刑法施行法的第八之一條適用對行為人最有利的原則那本席這邊的理解就算新法是為了保護兒少但是如果舊法對加害人比較有利就用舊法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5258.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5280.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這樣子的設計是不是會違反修法的一個目的我們對於兒少受性侵的時候可能不懂那是侵害然後也有因為還未成年不是太成熟的情況下可能會擔心家庭壓力或者是情緒會有一些威脅那要到很久以後才會真正知道他的創傷這個是本席剛剛在80條一直討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5282.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5307.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那麼這個修法如果新增未成年時間不列入追溯時效的一個制度希望能夠讓被害人真正能夠追溯到加害者但是你們的版本有可能導致以下幾個情況如果案件發生了很多年時效已經進行了一段時間時效尚未完成卻因為對行為人最有利的原則被害人不能適用新法 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5307.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5325.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那這不就是很多爭取兒少正義的案件依舊被舊法來卡死嗎這是不是有點違背所以本席請教兩個問題第一個法務部為何認為適用舊法而不優先考慮這次時效改革最核心精神的保護弱勢被害人這樣一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5326.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5341.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
第二個部分是本席認為追溯時效在新法施行尚未完成就應該適用修正後的新法這是最能夠落實你們這次修法的目的也不會出現被害人基本上可以讓被害人勇於發聲但是他發聲了之後結果就法的時效也讓他求助無門這個是本席這邊的兩個部分請你回應一下跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5353.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5379.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那原來我們公布的草案當然是用行為實法這是法律上一個蠻重要的原則就是說用行為實的法律去適用但是送到刑事政經院之後我們也廣納各界的意見現在我們整個定調的版本就如同剛剛委員所提的我們未來在這個施行法則的過橋條款我們採委員剛剛所建議的完全採用行為就修法後的新法來適用這個追訴權時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5380.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5402.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
完全跟委員剛剛報告一模一樣就是未來只要延長了我們也適用新法而不是我們原來所提出來的公告的草案適用行為司法我們是要適用這個新法來處理我們剛剛委員所提的相關的問題所以跟委員剛剛我們已經修正了相關的條文現在修正的這個部分是跟我剛才講的意旨是比較接近的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5403.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5430.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
一模一樣 就是是用行為時的而且是用新法是用新法本市只要確定在這個實行的這個時間上是同步的對 就是說我們未來我們對這個被害人成年後才計算他的時效的話未來就直接是用新法了不是用舊法不是用那個行為時那個法律所以本市只要確認我這個疑慮你們是不是在修法的過程當中有點有處理了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5432.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5440.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
最後一個 本席過去也提到過也就是西門檢查辦公大樓所引發的一些爭議你們現在想要選擇的地址是在西門町的黃金地段 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5447.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5468.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
還有 您知道這件事情吧知道你們說是檢查園區但是我相信你們未來也不可能整體開放隨時開放讓大家在那邊有你們想像的園區跟在地居民想像的一個公共觀光的空間最重要的是你們選擇的地方是以前我們成長記憶當中的國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5470.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5492.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
文藝中心這邊因為我們過去常常在中山堂那邊演出然後國軍藝文館也是我們常常走的這個動線所以在中華路而且緊鄰西門町你們也知道西門町目前的一個空間地景的一個想像跟它的調性但是很重要的是你在國軍文藝中心然後三軍軍官俱樂部福利站之所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5493.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5505.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個不僅是很多人舊時的記憶也離現在年輕人觀光客很密集的地方很近居民認為這樣的規劃是沒有考慮到地方的發展但是很重要的是說你們在2017年國防部在舉辦光這個園地它是用台北國防文教專區民間參與的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5515.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5529.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
興建移轉案當時的一個公聽會也承諾要將藝文廣場還有購屋商場跟便民的一些措施在這邊來興建但是到了2022年他們突然被通知這邊成為檢查大樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5532.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5536.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
雖然美其名為檢察園區可是應該如剛才本席這邊所想的你們不可能常常是開放的然後變成一個又要辦公然後又要有一些觀光氛圍的一個空間所以本席這邊要談的是你們在都會的這個核心地帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5549.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5566.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
設置高密度的司法設施經過很完整的評估嗎經過跟在地的考量嗎如果未來因為大規模的陳抗如果發生或某一些移送案引發社會的一些舉措造成交通的問題還有民眾的恐慌怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5569.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5586.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
第二個部分是你們這邊跟在地到底有多少溝通在地的居民本席在去年應該先前也應該問過這個問題當地的居民的陳情已經百人了9月之後你們還有沒有公聽會有沒有相關的一些替代方案你們是不是應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5587.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5602.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有更完整的評估那在你們縝密的這個維安或靜置區怎麼規劃然後這個空間如何在保有過去地景的一個記憶跟現在空間的一個調性那這個是本席是不是可以給本席一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5603.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5631.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
跟委員報告那因為檢察署北檢跟台高檢他提出的設置他必須要在整個我們司法園區這一塊裡面做相關的運作他不可能離法院太遠在整個台北司法園區他可以選擇的地點實在是非常有限至於這個山關營區事實上在這個跟委員報告在整個過程當中當然大院非常多委員也關心民意代表關心這個事情那整個評估的過程跟現在甚至到這個月上個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5632.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5661.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
台北地檢署都還不斷的有跟在地的民意代表或者是里長有一些共識的取得嗎當然他有進行相關的溝通共識的取得當然我們需要台北地檢署更多的努力當然民眾他有講的那些問題也有可能發生成抗事件的話但是未來北檢在整個設計上他要怎麼去避免他整個聽色設計上他要去做相關的規劃北檢他都充分知道了剛剛委員所提的相關問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5662.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5681.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我們只希望這邊不要變成土城看守所的一個前置很重要一點就是吳本席剛才所講的這邊的調性跟這個所謂的檢查園區有很大的一個差異我想在地居民的一個恐慌跟疑慮是必然的最重要的是最黃金的公共空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5683.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5703.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
應該有符合最大的公共使用性這點應該是我們在行政作為上要注意的我們常常可能因為便宜形勢或者是就近然後對我們來講說這樣子一個交通便捷的地點可能辦公方便但是很重要的是交通便捷的地點這種公共設施其實很重要的是要符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5703.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5712.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
民眾使用的最大公共性那這點我還是在這邊呼籲啦把它考量進去 好嗎好 其實我們會把這意見轉給台考檢跟北檢好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那接下來我們請省發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5732.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5748.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
主席我是不是先請我們這個國家發展委員會我們的檔案管理局檔案管理局楊祖密是不是先請請楊曉雯祖密是祖密好這個根據我看到這個司法院的報告書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5759.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5774.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我們這個國家發展委員會的檔案管理局我們是不是在有一個有關於這個機關共同性檔案保存年限的基準這樣的相關規定在什麼時候民國幾年的時候制定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5775.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5796.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們其實相關的這個基準表是陸陸續續在制定所以我們的依據就是其實我們依據的是檔案法第12條它有授權我們訂定這個我看到的是民國94年民國94年4月1號你們訂定的這個機關共同性檔案的保存年限基準這個94年制定之後你們在114年 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5797.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5821.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
这个114年就是今年嘛对不对对今年的4月16你们把这个基准表你们做了修正是对不对你们用一个党增制114001476号函把这个基准表做了个修正是你们经过你们这次修正之后 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5822.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5838.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
現在目前的這個判處死刑的這個評議部現在的保存年限是多久因為原來是10年嘛那我們特別在備註欄有講到是如果刑法判處死刑的那個評議部要永久保存要永久保存 也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5839.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5857.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
今天假設沒有修法但是按照你們的這個基準這個規則事實上從現在開始判處死刑的這個評議部就應該要依照你們的規定就要永久保存了對不對是對好謝謝主席我們先請那個司法院請王副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5863.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5865.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
剛剛我們跟檔案局去了解其實按照現在我們用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5874.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5896.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
以這個國發會他的這個檔案管理局他的這個機關共通性檔案的保存年限基準依這個行政規則事實上現在的這個判決實行的評議部現在是必須要永久保存所以你們我看你們的書面資料你們認為依照這個就夠了我們這個法院組織法第106條其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5901.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5923.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你們沒有說不應該修正你們說請大院再予以斟酌意思是說拜託你們考慮一下應該是不用訂是不是這個意思因為從結果上來看的話就是目前不修的話也是達到相同的行政目的所以如果我們修你們反對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5924.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5945.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
也不反對尊重立法院的職權聽起來看起來是好像沒什麼差別但是其實是有差別的如果真的沒有永久保存在法律上面你的救濟的方式就不一樣你違反一個行政規則跟違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5950.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5977.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
違反這個法院處置法的規定那個是救濟的方式是完全不一樣對不對是對所以這個部分我個人是其實是不反對這個修法我認為說雖然說現在已經有這個這樣的這個檔案局的這樣規定但是我認為說這樣修法事實上也是一種保障這個部分不曉得這個副名長競表同意我對OK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5978.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5997.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那這個法院組長這比較單純那接下來副院長請回主席在講電話我們這時間可以稍微幫我暫停一下主席 不好意思那我現在副院長請回我請法務部 請次長請法務部委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6002.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6022.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
次長好接下來這一條我們今天總共我看有三個法律條文有一個實施辦法這三個法律條文裡面我個人對於法院組織法第83條的這個條文修正這部分我個人認為事關最嚴重最大條這個事關重大所以我今天就請這個次長上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6029.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6050.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這個按照現行條我看到今天這個修正案法院組法第83條的這個修正條文修正案他跟這個現行的條文大概最大的有兩個差異最大的兩個差異第一個就是起訴書公布的時間點原本現行的規定是在第一審裁判書公開之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6051.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6076.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
才公開嘛那按照這個修正條文是在偵查終結後就公開也就是說在偵查終結你偵查終結之後審判還沒有開始還沒開始審判你就要先公開這個起訴書的內容這是第一個很大的差異第二個就是所謂不起訴處分不起訴處分書跟還起訴處分書 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6078.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6094.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
依照目前規定是不用公開現在這個修正案變成不起訴署分書跟還起訴署分書也要公開對不對我覺得這兩件事情知識體大知識體大這個值得我們真的要好好的來考慮跟討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6097.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6120.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
首先就是起訴書的起訴時點的部分這個部分這個是不是先請次長表示一下如果我們起訴書公佈起訴書的這個時點從現在事實上在一審裁判這個第一審的裁判書公開之後才公開那如果依照修正如果我們萬一立法院我們司法委員會通過這個法律修正把它提早到偵查終結那會有什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6120.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6148.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
各位報告那這個現行法它定在一審裁判後才公開起訴書其實它也是一個法律權衡後的結果其實按照無罪推定理論上確定前都應該是無罪推定都不應該公開但是涉及到人民知的權利跟資訊公開所以當時現行法它當時做一個權衡法律的權衡所以它定在經過法院的審理相關事實已經經過一個公開審理程序之後法院也下了判決之後我們起訴書才 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6149.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6158.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
跟著公開將來權衡民眾知的權利知性公開跟無罪推定原則相互的平衡所以我們認為我們修法把它提早到審判前會有什麼樣的影響那就是跟我們有影響有什麼關係就修吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6165.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6190.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
因為就是說等於起訴還沒有經過一個審理的程序就已經把他的犯罪事實揭露了不是犯罪事實是我們檢察官檢察機關所認定的犯罪事實他不是最終的最後可能無罪所以他可能是違反無罪推定原則的他可能是無罪啊這審判結果是無罪但是我在整個起訴書你們檢察官認為你們的證據就掌握你們覺得可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6190.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6211.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
但是最後審判是無罪所以現行法的83條第三項做這樣子權衡的規定是有它的道理這個就第一個當然是這個會違反這個所謂無罪推定原則這個是你剛剛講的除了無罪推定原則以外這個還有更嚴重的就是對於發現真實其實它是有影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6212.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6229.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
就是現在有一些犯罪我現在偵查終結起訴並不是整個案件全部都偵查完畢了他可能是這個部分尤其是現在這種組織化這個組織化複雜的這種犯罪當中有的我是這個部分我先偵查先偵查終結先做一部分就一部分的事實跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6232.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6251.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個當事人先進行起訴其實案件還在繼續進行但是你如果在這個時候就把這個起訴書公開包括你所有偵查內容你掌握的證據證人包括你的所有這些過程事實上就公開了你可能還有同案這個相關案件仍然在偵查當中會影響到這個發現真實的機會對不對對 這點我們完全贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6257.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6284.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
更嚴重的我們現在有國民審判有國民法官的審判會造成預斷的問題對啦 這個國民法官案件你這個起訴書這樣公開預斷這就是為什麼所謂起訴書一本起訴書一本主義就是避免國民法官預斷避免他預斷但是我們現在如果說我們修法反正主法修法之後你只要偵查中檢起訴書就必須公開那所有這些國民法官他在進入審判程序的時候他就已經有所預斷了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6287.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6310.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
是不是這樣 沒有錯 對所以我認為說這個修法要審慎這個要把看起來只是一個時間點的提早就是把起訴書從一審判決一審判決起訴書公開以後才公開提早到審查終結就公開我認為這個影響事關重大這部分我覺得說我們法務部要很清楚的論述讓這個本委員會的委員來了解這第一個 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6311.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6335.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
第二個我認為更嚴重的就是所謂不起訴處分書跟還起訴處分書的公開這個不起訴處分受不起訴處分的意思當然是說我們現在經過這個檢察官偵查之後認為現在掌握的證據不足以證明你為犯罪但是事實上在法律上面你就是無罪的人你就是一個無罪的人不是嗎所以我才不起訴結果一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6338.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6353.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我偵查過程中可能針對你的交友狀況針對你的財務針對你的很多的隱私經過調查但是調查結果你是不用起訴的結果把這些東西全部公開公開說所以我不起訴你但是所有的這些我的這個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6355.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6374.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
本來我最後我是無辜的人啊我是無辜的人所以我受不起訴處分但這整個過程調查過程中的這些證據這些你的交友關係你的財務流向你的金流都在不起訴書裡面被公開了那為什麼無辜的人要受到這樣子的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6375.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6404.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
這是第一個啦第二個是所謂還起訴的處分還起訴的處分它的設計它原本也就是說是有利於你復歸啦所謂復歸就是說你的這個橫著按照這個刑事重法253條之二你這個檢察官你按照刑法57條的刑的酌量你這些條件還有甚至是公共利益的考量所以予以你還起訴就是希望你能夠有一個自新自新跟復歸的一個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6406.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6427.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
但是如果你已經我這個檢察官我經過這諸多的考量這個按照刑法第57條這些刑的佐量跟這個社會公共利益之後我認為應該給你還起訴但是我又把你的這個我整個偵查過程的這個還起訴書把你公開把它公開讓所有人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6428.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6446.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那這個對於你的戶規跟你的我不曉得他這樣子公開他的在促進什麼樣的法益他在這個是不是請次長講一下這點也是咱們報告提的啦如果在這個偵查終結就公開被告的緩起訴處分書的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6447.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6474.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
其實真正的會跟我們緩起訴處分書緩起訴處分這樣訴訟制度所制定的立法目的是相違背的緩起訴他現在雖然犯罪了但檢察官基於公益上的考量跟個人的社會富貴的考量特別預防的考量所以這個考量所以給他緩起訴其實是為了他再社會化一個轉向政策如果我們這個時候再把他的相關的個資相關的事實公開其實是不利於這個立法目的的達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6475.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6493.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以這部分我們是完全贊同剛剛委員所提的這些不起訴書 緩起訴書裡面他可能會跟當事人甚至當事人以外的相關人員一些交友 家庭 職場 財務健康 醫療 甚至性傾向等等這些東西可能都在不起訴書 緩起訴書中被揭露這個被揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6499.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6513.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你這樣等於說不管是不起訴還是傳起訴不起訴還是傳起訴都是說我們認定你是一個不需要經過審判的人不需要接受審判的人結果你一個不需要接受審判的人因為這樣的公開而使你接受了輿論的審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6514.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6541.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這是我們最擔心的所以我認為說這個制度的設計真的要三思你們在整個整個這個我們未來進入真正的這個條件討論的時候我希望法務部能夠把這些這些疑慮跟這個這個社會法益的這些相關的這些考量能夠跟我們本會委員說明清楚好不好好 謝謝委員那當然另外還有這個憲法訴訟法這個法庭直播這個我就未來在逐條討論的時候我們再來討論好了以上 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6571.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6573.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們接下來請翁曉琳委員翁朝偉謝謝 那麼我想首先先請司法院王蜂蜜 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6586.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6609.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
王富明早安我們想今天主要是針對本席所提出來的憲法訴訟法的條文來進行討論當然我也看到了司法院的報告在這邊我有幾個意見我想要跟王富明這裡討論首先雖然說在你的報告裡面還有包含剛剛的檔案局的主命也都說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6609.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6629.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
目前機關共同性檔案保存年限基準裡面其實已經有做了備註我剛剛仔細聽了原來它並不是修正而是說特別是就死刑品一部的部分它是做一個備註說那個部分可以永久保存但是我想請教就是機關共同性檔案保存年限基準它的法律性質是什麼它是法律嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6636.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6650.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
還是它是一個行政規則這是一個職權命令不是法律對 它基本上就是一個行政規則是 對不對那麼既然是行政規則的話那原則上就是這個機關 行政機關它想要改的時候隨時它就可以改 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6652.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6670.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
他不需要經過立法院的同意 對不對所以今天我們講說是這死刑評議部現在他是用備註方式永久保存說不定這也不是或許有可能他以後他死刑評議部他說不需要永久保存保存20年就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6670.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6685.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
有沒有這個可能性所以報告委員就是結論上的話就是修這個100在法組法修106條這個司法院也完全沒有意見也沒有意見嘛只是說當然我知道你們的意思是說目前的行政目的是有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6685.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6705.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
只是說那本行當然是更早的時候就提出來希望能夠把這個事情明文化然後定在法律裡面那這樣就那這樣的話就更能夠就彰顯就是說對他的明確性那麼同時呢也符合大法官現判字的這個意旨就是未來的死刑的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6706.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6720.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就是要了解當時法官所做的議決的這個情況所以我想這樣的一個修法當然沒有什麼太大的問題最後就看我們立法院這裡要怎麼做那麼接下來還有一個部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6722.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6739.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
對於書狀類的要公開那麼我剛剛在提案說明的時候我其實已經有講了就是為什麼當時認為說司法院的書狀類要公開那也是因為這個篇幅的限制基本上很不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6739.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6745.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
而這也是屬於憲法法庭自己內部的一個行政規則就做了這樣的限制但是在你們的說明裡面說你們認為說整個書狀公開資訊會過於龐雜無益於憲法議題的思辨的立法目的達成坦白說我針對這句話我是有意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6760.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6786.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
資訊越多越公開它其實可以滿足各個不同人民對於資訊的這樣的一個需求跟渴望你不能夠說用你們自己的憲法法庭的角度去認定哪一個憲法議題是對人民的思辨有利哪些議題是對人民的思辨是不必要的我覺得這樣的論斷是不是過於快了 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6791.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6809.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
要說明嗎好 是第一個先向委員報告是其實世界上就是有設憲法法院的國家我們去看了一下它那個立法例大部分是歐洲像德國或是奧地利比利時跟我們查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6810.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6823.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
韓國跟我們鄉親的韓國就是他們的書狀都不需要公開的當時我們在修限數法的時候事實上已經有擴大了擴大了就是說選重要的像申請狀 答辯狀這一類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6828.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6854.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好 了解就是說當然其他國家的國情可能不見得是不一樣不見得他們有像我們憲法法庭有做了一些奇奇怪怪的一些規定那麼我要講就是說如果說從資訊公開的角度來看然後更何況現在技術不是問題所有的現在的書類的各式各樣的檔案它上傳到整個系統上面不會有所謂的空間不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6855.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6882.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以資訊公開這件事情很容易做到書狀類公開也很容易做到它不會說是會影響到增加多少憲法法庭的負擔而這樣子的一個書狀的公開我覺得真的是可以幫助更多的人民那麼他可以更了解憲法法庭的運作以及在審理的過程當中大家不同方的一個思辨一個辯論的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6885.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6900.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那麼本席認為說這個部分的話是有必要的而且也不會有所謂耗費審判行政人力的時間成本的問題這個我們可能從司法行政的端有不一樣的觀察因為現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6901.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6927.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
就是只是那個裁判書公開他為了就是說這些個資的遮影事實上就耗掉我們非常大的司法行政成本因為必須把相關的個資就是把他那個遮影才能夠對外公開這個個資有時候事實上他不是只是出現譬如說像王梅英這樣一個名字他事實上是有上下就是那個脈絡沒有出現名字但是從上下那個比對可以知道說這個個資是誰所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6929.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6940.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
就是說光是裁判書公開這樣一個事情就耗掉我們書記官這一端不過憲法法庭的案件也沒有像一般法院的案件這麼多更何況這個是書狀所以說書狀這些內容非常非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6945.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6972.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以就是司法這部分的話就是你們在整個的這個系統的精進還有怎麼樣能夠讓剛剛講的像這個資訊要去識別化你們可能要想一個更好的方法然後去做認定去改善那樣的一個作業程序可是一不能講說因為我的行政的作業程序很複雜那這樣我很多的負擔所以我有些東西我就選擇性的哪些書狀要公開哪些書狀就不公開那同樣的問題我想接下來請黃次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6975.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6982.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
在檢察官的書類的部分同樣的問題就是對於檢查書類的公開的部分你們今天認為說如果說檢查書狀的公開可能會違反無罪推定原則偵查不公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6995.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7016.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
等等這些原則那本席要講就是偵查不公開跟無罪推定這個就是刑事訴訟法的基本原則那本席也認為這樣的原則很重要應該要維護可是這些原則也不是可以無限上綱對你們現在這個地檢署不是常常也會在一個重大案件偵查終結起訴之後你們也會公開相關透過新聞稿的方式去公開起訴書的內容不是嗎那這個就沒有違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7024.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7053.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
偵查不公開嗎就沒有違反無罪推定嗎對 各位報告偵查不公開他要權衡很多的法律這案件的進行還有無罪推定還有整個訴訟關係人的民意隱私安全他所做的一個折衝的規定所以偵查不公開辦法裡面有的原則又例外 例外又再例外相關規定來折衝相關的法律的權衡所以我應該講沒有錯他有例外但是他又必須要有一個特殊的考量法律要特別明文規定及公義上的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7053.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7082.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
他才可以做一个特别处理但是我们现在是我们现在的草案是全面性的公开是为什么要全面性的公开因为其实本席已经常常听到有律师事务界的朋友或者说有些老百姓就会质疑为什么看起来是同样类似的犯罪事实的案子那么但是呢最后检察官会却做了不同的的一个判断可能有些是起诉有些是不起诉或是还起诉但是会大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7083.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7096.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
会很 confuse不知道为什么检察官今天会对于类似案件非常相近的这个应该是说他事实非常相近的案子有些却做了起诉有些却做了不起诉 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7097.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7119.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那我想檢察官的起訴書也應該是要可受這個公平可受大家去監督的就算是說你們自己講說你們內部有經過什麼附議還有一個內部的一個審查的機制可是這也還是存在於你們內部外界也並不知道他到底檢察官今天有沒有可能有包庇有持案等等這些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7120.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7146.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
各位報告 如果起訴的話當然經過法院review的機制去審核不起訴或緩起訴事實上我們除了內控機制之外告訴人他也可以申請准許提起自訴透過一個外部法院監督立案來監控檢察官的不起訴處分書所以在制度選擇上不是只有內控的機制他有外控的機制來監督檢察官的不起訴處分的結果另外本期要講的就是因為我們現在講的是偵查終結 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7148.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7172.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
終結之後然後才將一些偵查書類公開既然是偵查終結就是代表在這個段落在這樣子的一個情況下他現在已經這個偵查告一段落了所以他應該把他現在目前偵查的這個狀況然後公開這個部分的話這個會跟之後的你們說又會有後面的什麼要追究什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7173.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7198.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因为侦查终结检察官做的不起诉处分之后告诉人他是可以对不起诉处分或还起诉提起救济的一旦救济的话高检署甚至法院他有可能会不支持检察官做的不起诉或还起诉他会发回来我们地检署重新再行侦查又回复到侦查程序当中这时候又要有侦查不公开的限制了是啦 不过就是说我们从整个的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7201.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7217.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個偵查書類公開的角度來看的話其實就是這個部分最重要的就是希望能夠讓老百姓知道檢察官在相關案子裡面他們的作為是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7218.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7232.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
对 那么这当然任何一个政策一个法律的修正它都有利弊得失的考量那现在的问题就是人民对于司法就太不信任了总觉得很多的案子是不是检察官可能就一手遮天 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7233.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7252.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那明明該起訴的但他不起訴對 那麼這個問題我覺得很嚴重那麼更何況我們現在講了就是你現在法院組織法第80條83條第一項第二項對法院的裁判書有公開而且已經有講了如果說法律有除外規定有去識別化等等這些另外規定的話這些都是可以做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7252.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7269.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這不是不能做當然就像剛剛王富密說的這可能會增加了行政成本可是我想增加這個行政成本如果它是有利於讓人民更了解司法讓司法資訊更為透明那我認為這樣子的一個付出一個負擔其實是有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7270.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7296.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
對 跟委員報告要監督檢察官是否起訴適當或不起訴是否適當其實訴訟法上它就有它的相關的監督機制啦如果透過公開書類的方式它其實不是個最好的一個方式更何況它會有剛剛講很多法律的權衡的結果其實不見得剛剛委員提到很多人想公開搞不好有更多的訴訟關係的人他是不願意被公開的如果我們全面性的公開揭露的話是不是對這些人的權益會產生很大的影響呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7297.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7304.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
不過就是說一般的法院判決這個做成之後他也是都全面公開嘛就是說這些你剛剛講的一些訴狀的利害關係他可能也是會呈現在判決書狀裡面那當然透過去識別化等等的一些做法還是可以達到所以現在法院判決書都這麼做因為他畢竟請訴書也是在一審判決之後他也會公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7319.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7324.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
所以我們認為維持現狀其實是比較妥適的最後還有一點點時間謝謝王次長我再請教王富密我們知道其實在今年的11月初有一位最高法院的法官前庭長周銀文法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7338.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7364.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那麼因為這個懷疑是高血壓引發腦出血送醫急救這當然就是又引起了本席對於就是司法官人力的一個問題的關心那麼長期來說就是過去都認為法官過勞那麼在之前也曾經有司法院有在推動是不是一個法官一助理那麼目前為止有經做到所謂一法官一助理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7366.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7387.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝委員關心就是我們那個法官權益的部分目前一個法官一個助理這個是有的是有的幾乎全面性都已經做到了除了就是說比較技術性的問題譬如說像那個庭長他沒有辦全部跟法官一樣多的案件所以說庭長跟審判長大概是三個人配一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7388.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7411.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 那麼這個司法人力配置還有它結構的問題本席認為很重要那麼我希望就是說你們可以再提供給本席就是近五年來全國各級法官的聘用合約用的法官助理人數的佔比法官助理的流動率等等那麼另外其實本席有聽到有接獲一些訊息就是像是 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7413.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7434.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個有些少家庭的法官他們負擔非常非常沉重那麼是不是也可以你們請你們也提供相關的數據給我就是目前這個法院裡面有少家庭的有涉事少家庭那麼法官的人數以及在這個整個法院裡面的人數的比例好不好 請給我一份相關的數據好 謝謝委員會提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7452.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7477.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
接下來有請吳宗憲委員發言好 麻煩複密複密 我想說因為時間的關係我就速度進快一點我想一個很簡單的就是新北歌喉的那個案子我想已經有一段時間過去了那搞不好社會大家都已經慢慢的忘記那個事情但是我覺得新北歌喉案那個楊爸爸他 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7478.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7505.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
的一些後面跟我們的一些接觸其實一直讓我忘記不了那個案子我也希望說藉由那個案子能夠讓我們國家對於未成年的保護以及未成年犯罪加以重視然後一些有問題的法案趕快修改好然後能夠保障我們很多年輕人以及我們很多年輕人在學校或是在社會上面的安全反正我是上個星期四審少事法的時候就要來請教你雖然跟今天的議題有點不太一樣因為剛好上個星期四那個鳳凰颱風 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7507.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7528.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
的問題所以我就留在宜蘭去勘栽所以那天沒辦法過來本來那天我就要跟你請教這個問題那我想說今天我還是利用這個機會跟你討論一下我想我們看一下從那個少年事件處理的流程我們看這個圖片其實少年事件 少年犯一些犯罪其實它分兩大部分我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7529.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7542.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
父母應該非常的理解這一塊就有關少年事件少年保護事件還有少年的刑事案件這兩個不一樣那五年以上的案件其實他會被送到檢察官那邊他等於是一個逆送的狀況跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7544.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7564.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
一般少年犯輕罪其實是不一樣他的走的流程整個狀況是不一樣我想傅敏應該非常的了解那這個部分我就不多說但是因為我還是必須要讓大家知道如果少年犯的是五年以上的重罪的時候那這個時候會有檢察官出來來主導整個偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7566.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7594.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
但是如果是一般少年犯輕罪那這時候我們以一個保護優先的概念我們會讓法院來管理這個事情走向保護處分然後他所做的是一些比較非對抗的跨專業的合作的法官比較職權介入的方式然後避免這個小孩子因為犯輕罪而被貼標籤這個是我國目前的法制是這樣但是對於比較重大的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7595.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7605.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那這時候甲官介入就是一個比較國家公權力的強制去介入但是我們剛剛講的小朋友犯罪有這兩種輕跟重這兩個狀況但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7608.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7626.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
犯罪之後前科的突銷多久能突銷本來也應該不一樣但是在我國的目前突銷的標準卻一模一樣所以都是走三年觀察期是單一一個標準也就是說如果今天這個小朋友進去家裡面偷東西竊盜罪五年以下走三年保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7627.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7643.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
但是他如果在偷的時候被屋主發現他變成是強盜施以暴力的時候變成5年以上這時候又會轉由檢察官來處理所以面對這兩種案子一個是走向保護管束另外一個是檢察官介入調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7643.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7658.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
但是他們突銷卻一模一樣這個時候請問一下 複密你們是不是忽略了惡性極端重大的案子這個少年前科的突銷制度要有所不一樣怎麼可以用同一套標準 請問複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7659.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7674.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好 那個謝謝委員垂詢因為就是有關於那個少年的那個不管是保護事件或者是那個刑事前科他的那個塗銷雖然兩個性質不一樣可是他們相同的立法意旨都是為了讓他們復歸就是讓那個可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7678.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7702.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以我刚跟您提到我知道你也其实我也猜到你会这样回答就为了保护少年要让他回归社会我们这个出发点没有错但是这两个东西如果混为一谈没有一个差异化的话其实你们是不是忽略掉了一个很重要的观念就是一个社会防卫的责任是不是我们忽略到社会防卫责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7702.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7724.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
所以從新北戈侯案這個案子我就看到了一個點我們似乎好像對於未成年的保護就是保護到極致保護到爆炸保護到完全沒什麼好談就是保護到底但是我們卻忘了去忽略掉有一些人有一些特殊的狀況雖然未成年人大部分其實都不會去犯重罪但是極端少數的那些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7725.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7750.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
犯了重罪但是我們對於他的觀察期一模一樣的話會不會反而讓社會上面其他的小朋友或其他的人反而因此而活在恐懼中像譬如我小孩還小那他之後要去上小學的時候我也會擔心他們班會不會有一個類似這樣的人但是因為我們要給這種犯罪的人保護就我不知道我小孩子可能跟一個有犯過重罪的人兩個在同一個班級上課 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7751.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7779.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那老師也不知道就到最後沒有人知道要先去預防一些事情新北哥侯案就是這樣發生這麼悲劇發生之後我們卻沒有注意到有什麼要改變好 那我再請教您一個問題我們剛剛講的竊盜 強盜這個也是有的是產案犯罪有的是輕罪 有的是重罪那我請問一下殺人的話如果這個小朋友殺了人 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7780.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7786.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那為什麼他跟竊盜的輕罪一樣都是三年歸零呢我請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7786.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7809.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那個包委員那個委員垂詢的這個其實就是一個形式政策的一個選擇就是說我們是把它擺在就是跟您剛剛的解釋一樣就是幫少年能夠復歸保護少年形式政策對不對但是我再重申一次我們這個邏輯是忽略掉社會防衛的這個責任所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7811.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7835.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
新北哥和那個同班同學目睹他殺了十幾刀的這個人把人殺死一刀殺死那我們關切的是對於這種動不動把這個小朋友是別個小朋友的生命於無物的時候那我們對他的觀察期卻跟偷個東西的觀察期是一樣的這樣合理嗎你對於其他小朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7837.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7860.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
乖乖的小朋友或者是一般的爸媽你對他們公平嗎這是我要提出來請司法院一定要去注意到這個感覺否則人民的感覺會是什麼你在跟我唱高空講大道理我一點都不在乎你今天跟我講什麼我只要我的小孩平平安安的出門平平安安的回家來陪我平平安安長大陪著我我說真的我只在乎這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7861.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7878.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
人民會這樣跟你講所以司法院請不要拿刑事政策或拿什麼富貴這種大道理來告訴人民這個人民不會買單的好 然後再來你說的這個三年如果觀察期都一樣那我告訴你你反而害慘了小孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7878.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7900.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
因為我以前走刑事案件偵查我走了那麼多年我走了20年的刑事偵查我看到了一個點很多黑幫會用這些小孩子他就告訴小孩子反正你犯罪也不會被怎麼樣然後觀察期也才三年反而這些黑幫更喜歡把這些小孩子當作免洗塊來用反正這個小孩出事了換下一批小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7900.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7908.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
有更多小孩子他未來可以無限的使用我叫小孩子去開槍開完槍之後打死人了反正沒差嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7909.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7937.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
判沒有多久而且三年後突銷所以我們可以這樣做嗎我們這樣子做以為維持社會正義以為保障小孩子會不會反而害了更多的小孩子我覺得我們要面對的是司法的實務社會的現實而不是在象牙塔裡面講原理原則講理論因為我們是司法第一線實務的人我們不是大學教授所以當我看到司法實務有這個狀況發生的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7939.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7946.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我想您一定要特別注意這個點成少共犯以及成年人把小朋友當作免洗塊的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7948.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7969.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
法官在處理案件是就個案所以法官有時候他鑒數不見你沒辦法但是您是司法院的高層你必須站在高空看地面你不能跟著第一線的司法判案人員就站在地面看地面你必須站在300公尺高空你必須站在你必須要鑒零不是只能鑒數 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7971.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7994.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
對不對 你不是見數不見零的人啊所以要麻煩你們同時思考小朋友的保護以及善良小朋友的保護必須要橫平所以我個人在這邊建議 塗銷的觀察期絕對不能一致麻煩你們能夠去審慎思考這個點因為社會安全防衛的底線我們要堅守住 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7995.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8002.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我今天看到的就是不停的保障這些犯罪者我們國家的司法制度整天告訴我被告的權益要保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8003.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8026.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但是我想告訴你的一件事我更在乎善良百姓以及被害人的權益要保障但是我今天看到是一堆人每天都在喊被告的權利我們是不是忘了被害人的權利一樣對小朋友也是你跟我說要讓他復歸社會你跟我說要保護未成年人但是我想到的是那那些善良的小朋友們呢誰來保護所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8029.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8056.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我希望師父因為你們這次提出來的版本還是一模一樣所以你今天不提一個修正版本你至少要回應我的書面質詢至少要告訴我你們的想法是什麼該怎麼辦如何兼顧社會防衛跟刑法正義的治安需求你必須要告訴我這個點我要在這邊跟您強調不管是犯罪的或者是其他小朋友每一個人都是家裡面的寶我會說我看我兒子 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8057.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8080.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我兒子我跟你講 我為他我有99條命我願意為他死100次都可以每一個家長都是這樣在看待小孩所以麻煩你們要特別注意就是當小朋友不停的在踐踏司法底線的時候其實我們就應該終止法律對這個小朋友的寬容了因為我的訴求對好人更好 對壞人更壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8081.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8108.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那好 最後就是30秒兒少證人的保護請你們注意這件事情你們不能放任各個法院對於證人的保護讓各個法官去決定因為我到北院去看新北地院去看那個走廊很小結果我們那個新北那隔壁案證人來竟然跟被告兩個人就在那邊隔一公尺多互看然後結果這個證人回去被人家騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8109.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8129.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我覺得你們要用制度來處理這件事情你不能讓各個法院各自為政好不好我跟你講只有能夠補動的是制度我們不能永遠靠運氣好過往證人開完庭之後出去被殺的好幾件又有桃園又有律師開完庭出去被被告殺死所以我們不能每個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8130.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8149.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
都靠運氣請全國一致搞一個制度來處理所以三個月內呢給我一個兒少正能保護要點動線分流還有候審隔離的基準要有那個動線分流獨立等候區或候審隔離區或者是有沒有人陪同等待這個麻煩給我一個這個要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8151.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8179.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
你們要完成這個要點 好不好然後要給我一下然後還有一個開庭前進庭中退庭後保護的SOP而且要列入法院的評鑑我不希望還有民眾因為開庭然後出法院之後被殺死前陣子那什麼殺死加包案件殺死小姨子就是這樣 好不好好 謝謝複密是 好 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我先做會議程序的報告待會在吳思堯委員群黨完畢之後我們休息五分鐘好 接著請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8183.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8207.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
司法院王蜂蜜署長請王蜂蜜蜂蜜好 今年三讀通過修正法院組織法90條它其實司法透明的一個重要里程碑但是我知道司法院多次都表達不太贊成我想請問蜂蜜署長三讀之後司法院的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8210.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8224.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為立法院和司法院都是憲政機關所以說我們雖然當時在立法過程中我們有表達了我們的意見但是立法院通過之後我們就是尊重在這個底下來制定那個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8226.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8247.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
这我们基本态度对非常好我就是要你这个答案就是说基本上当然每一届政策的主张都各有利弊那既然立法院从宪政架构来看的话三读通过的法律实际上司法院就必须尊重那但是我再问下一个问题就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8248.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8269.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我看到你们的所谓的法庭录音录影公开播送的实施办法那这当然是根据我们修正的法院组织法第90条的末项法庭录音录影公开播送相关事项之办法由司法院定制那我想请问一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8271.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8296.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
你刚也讲要尊重立法院嘛那既然法律已经通过了虽然立法院授权让你们来定定办法那要不要尊重立法院当时的修法意旨这个我们绝对尊重绝对尊重有吗有绝对尊重吗我们来看看你们的这个所谓的实施办法第12条是怎么规定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8301.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8323.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
手上那个条文第12条就是依本法公开播送之言词辩论录音录影应于该案件裁判宣誓或公告后播出我想请问这是当时我们三读通过的法律意旨吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8324.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8344.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
一律要等到裁判宣誓後才播出這是當時我們通過法院組織法的立法意旨嗎那個跟委員報告因為這個母法它是有在這個母法它是規定的我把這個條文打開 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8349.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8368.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
在那個最高法院這邊就是全部一律要公開然後在那個40審那個部分他說有關於這一個法庭所謂的錄音錄影依當事人的申請或是依職權以適當的那個方式實施公開播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8369.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8394.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那什麼是適當的方式這是授權我們司法院來處理當時在立法過程中就是依立法意旨委員也講了公開播送有兩種一種是Live還有一種是Delay Live他說我們所講的公開播送什麼時候要用Live的沒有Live他說你們可以用Delay Live這個不只一個委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8394.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8422.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
然後另外就是說90條母法的90條第6項申請參與者程序參與者他可以申請把錄音錄影變聲變相或者是其他的去識別化那既然要把這些就是說你要去把它變聲變影還有去識別化那他都不可能是在直播的當時做他一定是要去事後做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8423.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8442.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
對 那我們另外也考量了就是說當時在那個公聽會的時候大家所提出的這一些那個疑慮那所以認為說在我們的那個裁量的權限底下認為說剛上路的時候我們應該要先那個穩健以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8443.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8465.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好那我念一下立法例子給你聽好不好是我們在第90條的立法的說明裡面有講為推動公開透明之司法總統府司改國是會106年作成以下決議大法官憲法法庭最高法院以及最高行政法院召開延遲辯論英語直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8467.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8474.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
他其实很特别强调直播的这件事情我要先来回来我先回到刚刚那个傅敏俊讲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8475.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8503.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
基本上本来就有所谓的直播延迟直播还有包括说今天要有些特殊的案件是要排除在公开播送之外这连我们在所谓的法律定定的时候都也讲到有妨害国家安全公共秩序善良风俗造成个人生命身体隐私或营业秘密之重大损害之余者得以裁定不予公开播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8503.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8533.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這也是在立法的過程當中其實有考量到你剛剛講的種種的情況但你知道我今天質詢的重點在什麼在立法議址上你除了一些排除狀況之外他其實還是希望你能夠用所謂的直播的方式來去處理我支持有些狀況是用延遲直播我甚至支持有些狀況是不應該公開播送的可是你知道你們的辦法定的是一律 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8534.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8547.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
全部都是一定是要嘛按照裡面的不公開播送的部分那就不公開播送但是呢裡面沒有含色的所謂的不可以公開播送的這些所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8548.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8571.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那個法庭的狀況事實上按照立法意旨的話你應該要包含去區別有的是應該是採取直播那有的你要採取延遲直播或是要做其他的包括你要變音變影或是有一些保護的做法那都已經含設在法律裡面的例外規定裡面了所以當你今天你的辦法裡面你直接就跟大家講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8573.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8596.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
通通都是一律是延遲在播送的話五天延遲播送那你需要什麼作業時間但實際上不是啊不是其他有些國家也是有所謂的法庭上的直播也是有啊那別人難道就沒有考量這些問題嗎所以在這種過程當中我還是要希望今天我們的司法院你前面都講要尊重立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8597.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8620.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
但是你在定辦法的過程當中我覺得你是放大了今天立法院給你授權制定辦法的空間你沒有回到我們立法議職裡面不管怎麼樣講我要先特別強調一件事情今天我們法院組織法今天為什麼這樣修訂實際上我覺得就是公開透明的非常重要的一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8621.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8648.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那我觉得既然走出这一步我觉得司法院过去反对现在接受但是我觉得你做我不敢讲半套可能你做了60分70分可是实际上有些部分你还是可以再往前走一部分不用那么画地制限可不可以请司法院再好好斟酌一下好吗好谢谢委员指教OK谢谢您谢谢好谢谢罗委员那接下来我们请吴思瑶委员发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8663.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8692.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
謝謝主席請王富密也請我們黃次長請王富密跟王次長委員長大家辛苦了我想立法院該審不審今天來自食惡果而司法院負責任的善後補救卻是在這裡要被為難要被究責 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8693.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8719.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我呼籲藍白的委員 在野的委員們暴衝式的立法 修法發生在法庭直播的法院組織法上切莫不要再次的二度惡修把修法當兒戲這是我今天的破題喔 下一頁進入法庭直播的部分之前呢今天同樣也有汪小林委員提的法院組織法83條修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8720.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8723.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
也就是偵查終結公開起訴書的書類公開範圍他要擴及不起訴處分書擴及還起訴處分書等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8731.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8750.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我想當然提案的委員他可能認為就是要擴大司法的透明公開但是任何的透明公開資訊的揭露也都要適度為之不要讓司法人權在這些修法有失周延的思慮之下是為謀其利 鮮受其害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8751.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8776.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以說我終整讀了你們兩個部會單位司法院跟法務部的資訊你們對於法院組織法83條修正案也是持保留的態度對不對違反了無罪推定的原則恐怕會妨礙後續的犯罪偵查甚至也可能會觸犯到偵查不公開的原則司法法治委員會不是最重視偵查不公開嗎現在卻要惡修法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8780.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8809.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
自己去違反偵查不公開真的要三思而後行當然最重要的是捍衛司法人權我們在公開的範圍呢一定要考量訴訟程序參與者的名譽隱私權之保障我所說的這四大理由是不是都是司法院跟法務部對於這個修法持保留意見的主要的幾個部分是嗎有沒有要補充的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8810.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8830.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
就83條部分我們是幾個疑慮點如同委員剛才所說明的好 謝謝次長的說明那我們下一頁所以說司法人權要捍衛透明公開有其界限透明公開真的不要適得其反立法院更要反求諸己立法院不要雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8832.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8858.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我們看看立法院自己有做到透明公開嗎還是立法院自己在修法的過程一再的黑箱呢自己在違反透明公開啊下一頁我不得不說這一屆的立法院惡例變成慣例了程序正義完全被踐踏這是我整理出來的這一會期喔這一屆應該我講這一屆期 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8861.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8888.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
光用禁覆二讀的方式快速的跳過委員會零討論就表決的法案有這麼多我要強調我從國會助理到現在國會的工作也真的是20餘年了禁覆二讀是議事規則授權的議事策略沒有錯但禁覆二讀有其前提就是第一個朝野有共識的議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8889.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8902.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
第二個有急迫性的議案而不是腐爛的在朝野沒有共識的議案每一個都透過表決 淨富二讀而淨富二讀也需要有配套因為委員會已經沒有討論了你後面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8906.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8924.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
韓院長啊立法院院長主持的最終表決前的那個最終的朝野協商就成為最重要也是唯一的討論條文的場域他必須逐條討論必須負責的審議必須理性的對話這是進覆二讀的當然的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8925.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8953.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
可是這一屆立法院都沒有腐爛的進復二讀然後協商當天直接表決換言之等一下就表決現在協商是什麼就過水啊韓國瑜院長主持的潮語協商是沒有實質討論的是零討論只是過水而已所以這些惡果惡力都發生在法院組織法的法庭直播上更甚者表決前又送出再修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8954.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8976.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以這一次法院組織法法庭直播我在表決前看到的條文又被改了黑箱版本又被改了跟當初我們試圖理解的法案又不一樣了換言之這是二上加二既附二讀協商過水表決前是黑箱版本造成今天法庭直播這個法院組織法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8979.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9003.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
為得其利 先受其害而司法院努力的在撥胯網今天在這裡還要被在野黨的委員責難成這樣所以這是一個萬惡之源如果法院組織法當時尋程序在委員會好好最專業的司法法制委員會來討論重大的司法制度的變革我想你們也不用這麼麻煩後面去改那個直播辦法大家傷透腦筋如何撥胯網 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9006.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9030.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以下一頁我們就來看看立法院雙標在哪裡啊立法院該審查的其實是法案議案行政部門依據法案議案去制定的相關的執法辦法事實上原則上是受立院被查當然也可以改審查但是重點立法院該審查的是法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9031.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9051.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
而不是向法院組織法 法庭直播的部分直接禁負二讀直接快速的不協商就三讀表決碾壓還強制規定你們三個月內要上路當初國民法官法我們上路的準備期是多久兩年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9059.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9078.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
2020年的7月通過我們上路是2023年的1月1號兩年半的時間涉及重大司法制度的變革他要有充分的時間來研議制度的配套但是立法院審查快轉爆沖修法協商過水 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9080.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9106.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
然後表決黑箱強制通過了之後要你們三個月內趕快上路為快而快爆衝的立法院要司法院來承擔後果啊那我們來看看反拉這是反拉該審的法案不審現在呢立法院反而要來針對你們送出來的配套辦法要來改審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9107.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9132.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這不就是完全亂了套嗎該審的不審然後現在來為難你們的實施辦法太過分了立法院自己的程序不正義自己踐踏了委員會的實質討論然後把受害者想方設法去補救的司法院現在下一頁還放話 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9134.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9150.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
不合倡議就威脅再來煽動司法院的預算嗎黃國昌委員說你們法庭直播的部分他不滿意你們現在波帕王的這個實施辦法他又再一次放話嗆聲要威脅凍結刪減你們的預算來反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9155.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9184.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
今天黃國昌委員就是法庭直播的始作俑者被社會踏法成這樣他不思悔改今天還在嗆說要把你們的這個辦法退回司法院然後他還要再修法院組織法這立法院真是怪了才化法不是這樣嗎自己為快而快爆衝的修法才化法然後呢出了包然後上會期修的才化法這會期再修一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9185.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9193.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
然後黃國昌現在一樣啊上會期修的法院組織法自己粗糙暴衝現在又要再回來這不是把修法當兒戲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9196.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9217.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以依據立法院職權實施法62條的規定如果相關的行政命令執法有違反抵觸法律確實立法院可以要求或廢止要求更正或廢止但是你們所送出來負責任的研議了三個多月的這個辦法有違逆法律嗎我們現在來檢視下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9220.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9234.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
到底Life跟Delay Life誰在抵觸法律呢藍白的委員自己說法反覆自己打臉自己啊這個是黃國昌委員626的黨團協商跟627的朝野協商他都說同樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9235.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9252.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
公開播送什麼時候是要Live沒有Live你也可以用Delay Live的方式去處理這種方式在外國實踐的例子還蠻多的這是黃國昌說的他當時自己同意Delay Live是直播的定義的方式之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9253.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9277.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
羅志強委員朝野協商他也說公開播送的直播還是有不太一樣的地方喔直播也算公開播送但是延遲直播也是一種透明公開的播送兩位委員的說法打臉自己請問你們的實施辦法哪裡有抵觸了立法院修法的母法呢並沒有啊在我看來所以下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9279.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9295.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這是我們當初要撥破網的地方因為爆充式的法院組織法禁敷二讀違反了各司法的保障不利於事實的調查有違無罪推定的原則也會因為輿論的公審來影響相關訴訟當事人尤其是裁判者 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9295.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9320.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
的新政這都是我們司法院在制定實施辦法要撥破網的核心嘛對不對也是民間團體一直在說不可以這樣不可以這樣的時候你們是負責任在善後嘛下一頁所以我們來看條文喔你們的實施辦法裡面有針對禁止特寫保護案件當相關人的權益這何錯之有藍白的委員要反對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9322.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9333.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
還是他們認為要直播要放大再放大把每一個人的特徵拍得清清楚楚讓每一個人訴訟當事人都可能受到社會的肉搜 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9335.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9359.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
藍白的委員要反對什麼你們是保護案件相關人的權益所以才應該以單一鏡頭定向定焦拍攝不得特寫不得而且不應當拍攝國民法官對不對這是我們的原意合錯之有下一個我們也明定當事人對於法庭直播有抗告權就是為了捍衛司法人權尊重當事人的意願合錯之有 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9360.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9380.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
對不對 我們第八條修訂就是這個原理嘛再下一個可能這是在外黨委員說要退回的一個重要的條文喔就是對於LIFE或是DELAY LIFE我們撥帕邦是為了避免訴訟中的直接撥送來導致輿論的公審我們就法條論法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9382.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9410.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
你們12條是依據法院組織法所修正第90條來補充的對不對立法院修正的法院組織法自己就寫了最高法院大法庭等等等等等應以適當方式實施公開播送適當方式實施公開播送你們的實施辦法的第12條就是適當方式嘛何錯之有呢為什麼要為反對而反對呢最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9413.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9438.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這個問題現在還沒有辦法解決雖然我們指定了播送的平台但是任意的剪輯還是很難去防範變造或剪輯而二中之二是立法院通過的90條他加了一項所謂的公開播送是錄音錄影不受90條之次的限制也就是他授權任何人都可以散佈都可以來做非目的性非正當目的性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9439.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9461.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
使用 這是惡中之惡 我們在保護他人是不是所以我支持你們我不知道這個實施辦法最終可能被退回吧可是我花了一點時間逐條去檢視我們的實施辦法我們是負責任的在保護司法人權再去彌補粗糙暴衝沒有配套的法庭直播造成的對於訴訟當事人的權利的損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9464.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9479.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
可能會被退回吧我想因為已經委員嗆聲放話要砍你們的預算要全部退回要再修法院組織法但是我們為所當為捍衛司法人權不分顏色最後一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9480.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9508.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我要再次來放鬆這一頁提案的黃國昌委員不折不扣的雙標當媒體對著他拍在他採訪的時候他說我討論我討厭有人拿著手機對我一直拍他是立法委員他反對有人拿著手機對他拍當有人對於他的孩子做出一些可能他認為是在肉搜的行為但事實上基於公共利益你的申報要誠實 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9510.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9530.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
對於他家人的一些質疑他反而就雙標的說你們不可以對我家人這樣他要保護他家人的隱私我都同意每個人要保護彼此的隱私但是呢黃國昌強推法庭直播逼迫受害者的隱私全部被揭露標準何在 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9531.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9550.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
標準何在立法院不能雙標我支持你們為所當為捍衛司法人權不分顏色我們要堅持下去好嗎也辛苦你們了你們的這個直播辦法是討論了三個多月一程序在公告然後再 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9551.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9579.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
比起立法院粗糙的禁覆二讀協商過水黑箱條文的表決你們在程序的正義上在條文的嚴謹度上都是立法院應當向你們學習的對象才對但是今天加害者譴責受害人善後的人要被立法院究責為難成這樣我呼籲現在的中央政府總預算還被delay沒辦法審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9580.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9602.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
如果未來能夠審查又要再一次像去年一樣二刪二砍司法預算就是要進行司法的報復我要再次譴責我們不應當重蹈覆轍大家加油謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳委員那我們現在先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9974.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9979.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
好 那我們現在繼續進行會議那接下來我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我先請我們司法院副秘書長好 請王副秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9995.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10017.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
委員好好 副秘書長好跟你討論一個判決案子這個在台灣社會對於打假球不管是棒球或者是籃球大家都深惡痛絕那非常不幸的在SBL在2023年的時候進行第二十屆的賽程 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10023.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10046.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
爆發了打假球的事件這個案子當然該辦就辦但是最近這個案子判決結果出來多名SBL的假球案它的判決基本上是可以看到它其實還有牽涉到很多的球員 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10047.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10073.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
但其中柯敏豪他是MVP球員他是犯罪所得178,000元判刑7年 他是判的最重另外有一位吳季穎他的犯罪所得129萬 緩刑5年他是在這個案子裡面拿到錢犯罪所得最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10074.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10097.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
另外像陳品權他的犯罪所得7000元他拿最少但是他被判4年4個月然後有一位邱繼偉這個邱繼偉其實他是最有問題因為他是主頭他是地下主頭他的犯罪所得35000元也被判緩刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10098.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10124.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個案子出爐之後在運動圈引起了很多的討論大家覺得判刑的標準是什麼這個案子的判刑標準據說是因為其中有兩位他們當污點證人咬出其他的人所以他們被判緩刑但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10127.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10144.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個邱繼偉他本身呢是主頭而且呢這個這個吳季穎他又是犯罪所得最高的也許是他們兩個人去咬出其他人所以他們都被判這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10146.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10175.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
緩刑那所以像這種在這個社會在運動圈矚目的案件那其他的其他的球員他們不管他們拿到的金額是多少大概也都沒有判緩刑而且呢都判到4年起碼有的是大概3年到4年左右所以我想請問一下副秘書長像我們在整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10177.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10201.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個良刑的時候如果單單只就說您有沒有去咬出其他的人但是主頭是罪有問題的罪有問題就被判緩刑那這代表什麼他以後再去搞一攤這一攤搞完了然後骨肉乾黏後這個風聲比較鬆了然後他再去搞一攤 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10202.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10228.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
反正他去被判緩刑所以這樣的案件會不會有爭議性請問一下副秘書長保護委員那個本院是執司司法行政就是我們沒有審審這個案那所以說這個案件裡面他的那個卷證跟裡面的這些事證到底呈現了什麼那個資料我們並不是審審法官所以我們無從置諱就是這個我們要尊重那個審判核心我們並不清楚裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10232.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10243.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
每一次问你们相关的案子你们都说这是个案要尊重成审法官就是因为个案你们不清楚但是我们在这边每一次指出来的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10244.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10272.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
人民對於司法良心合不合理對於司法能不能夠信任其實就是在這些個案一一累積出來的所以我覺得在我們一直在講說當然司法改革現在聽起來像笑話司法改革震天架響喊了這麼多年我們也沒有看到司法有改革司法也沒有再貼近人民那甚至司法還被那個政治干預但是這個案子我要特別提醒司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10273.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10301.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這個是在 他不是政治性案子但是對於台灣社會大家對於打假球案件這麼深惡痛絕的狀況之下主頭判緩刑大家會覺得怎麼主頭還可以被判緩刑請問以後是不是是放縱還是包庇這些打假球案呢所以這一點是要特別提出來時間暫停一下我再請我們的保養部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10305.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10326.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
等一下 鳳鳴長 劉卜委員好接下來要跟你們就教的這個在昨天其實在我們未還委員會有討論但是我覺得它蠻重要昨天未還委員會主要是要修法因為前一陣子在新北市有一個違反家暴令的男子 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10327.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10356.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
他被釋放之後立刻當街殺了他的太太跟他的小姨子那引起社會的嘩然所以怎麼可以就是違反保護令然後立刻去殺人但是呢這個案子引起大家比較高度的關注但是就在那個時間非常接近的時候其實台北市還有一個案子就是這個女公關她被割喉慘死 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10356.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10382.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
大家後來也才發現說她也是一樣她也是被家暴而且施暴者施暴者其實也是違反保護令然後回來就把那個女公關給當街割喉慘死所以我們就要去討論這個違反保護令的問題在昨天我們在委員會都有提到也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10383.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10404.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
家暴的申請羈押率以及被羈押率都非常非常的低羈押率我記得大概就是5%上下而已那當然當時我們檢察司司長是說因為家暴案件他的探向非常非常多他的母數很大但是我現在要跟兩位討論的違反保護令那個鳳鳴爽保護令是法院發的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10413.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10442.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以一般被家暴的人比如說夫妻吵架怎麼樣啪啪被打兩個耳光或怎麼樣你可能也拿不到保護令這種不容易對不對你保護令拿到保護令也是要有一定的標準比如說你要去驗傷然後他有一定的暴力行為或者還有一定長時間的施暴所以法院才會發給他保護令限制他的一些施暴者的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10443.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10469.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
但是我剛才指的這個兩個例子是比較老實說它是比較極端例子它違反保護令之後還去殺人但是事實上在社會有很多的狀況是違反保護令之後繼續去騷擾違反保護令之後繼續去施暴違反保護令之後呢一再的違反保護令恃若無睹所以我要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10470.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10494.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我們可不可以往一個方向去做討論如果違反保護令就應該構成羈押的條件否則的話它的成本很低嘛它速度違反保護令也無所謂啊它可能一直要等到說它真的有可能再去做什麼樣的暴力那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10495.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10515.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
违反到真的是很可能造成这个当事人受害者的这个他的什么生命财产的安全所以我的意思就是说以我们现在我们希望能够在保护保护这些富佑然后要降低家暴而且要让家暴者付出一定的代价 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10516.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10539.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
可是我們看到從2021年到2024年違反保護令的案件事實上是增加的而且增加的件數是非常多的所以我在想請問我們檢查系統我們的法院系統在違反保護令我認為刑度都過低了你看連續發生這兩個悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10542.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10561.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
是不是可以在違反保護力的狀況之下他就構成羈押條件你讓他押一下讓他付出代價阿伯每次都說你要考慮到他的心理他很容易暴怒他更容易什麼傷害你讓他羈押違反保護力你讓他羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10562.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10581.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
讓他cool down讓他知道你違反保護令你要付出這樣的代價否則的話很多好幾次一而再 再而三的事法院保護令為無誤所以我想先請教市長這個部分有沒有可能我們經過什麼樣的方式去給他精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10582.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10609.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
各位報告我們羈押在刑訴法當然有特別的羈押的要件但是家暴法它為了保護這個保護令的這個有效性所以它家暴法對羈押要件它做了一個特別的處理它跟我們刑訴法不一樣所以換句話說你違反家暴法的保護法的令的話它基本上你反覆實施進一個反胃的狀態犯罪性重大它就創造一個新的一個羈押室友事實上家暴法在30條之一它是有做特別的處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10610.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10635.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
就羈押要建議它做一個稍微鬆綁於刑訴法上的規範它其實是有做特別的規範所以你認為說如果我剛才講的就是說讓這個違反保護令讓它就應該構成羈押條件對 它犯罪嫌疑重大有反覆讓它沒有機會讓它一再的違反你的意思說就要去修這個家暴法不用修 家暴法30條之一現在就有特別的規範了它有不同刑訴的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10636.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10654.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
他只要犯罪件重大反覆那如果說不用修法那就是你們第一線嘛檢察官也好或者法院也好那為什麼我們可以看到一再違反家暴令呢一再違反家暴令也沒有壓他然後就讓他放回去放回去之後呢他就開始去騷擾有的是怎麼敲門踹門破門而入怎麼去騷擾跟騷等等之類的或者再繼續施暴那嚴重的就是我講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10664.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10672.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這都是今年的案例 直接當街殺人不是一宗 而是連續兩宗的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10673.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10699.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
所以那個市長你還是覺得你們在檢查系統沒有什麼精進的辦法當然委員提到要不要羈押當然要個案他去決定我就說在法治工具上他是齊備的法治工具不會欠缺在個案上當然檢察官他去判斷我們就沒有辦法智慧但法律工具他是應該沒有問題的那請問一下副秘書長呢副秘書長看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10701.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10714.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
同意那個次長的意見次長沒有意見啦老家我講半天為什麼要請你講你們兩個都這樣講我認為違反加爆令就應該羈押啦我直接說你加爆令是隨便發的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10715.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10741.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
家暴令不是不能隨便發不是嗎報告委員因為現在在那個有關於那個羈押那個要件確實在那個家暴防治法裡頭他已經有做一個那個特別規定了那這個當然就是實務上怎麼做的問題可是就是說一律如果說完全不留下這種裁量那個空間違反那個家暴令就羈押的話他可能對於本來給你們裁量空間但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10742.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10760.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
但是留財糧空間的結果就發生像這樣的案例因為家暴的太陽太多了就是有些他可能那個侵害法益真的沒那麼重沒有錯因為檢察官的意思說家暴 我剛才就講嘛有的時候你可能怎麼夫妻吵架或短暫性或什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10761.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10783.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
你還不容易拿到這個保護令因為拿到保護令它是有門檻的保護令是有門檻的我現在不是說你違反就是你家暴你就應該羈押而是你違反了保護令你違反保護令有給你一些這個限制然後這是法院發的保護令然後你還違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10784.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10812.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
就應該進行羈押我是這樣認為我不想再看到這樣的這種悲劇再發生是不是希望檢查系統也好或者法院系統也好看到我們違反保護令的案件節節升高那就代表是不是根本我們在司法上面沒有這個遏止的一個效果好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10812.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10841.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
好希望我希望在法國部跟那個司法院能夠去做一些研擬好不好好謝謝好謝謝王委員那接下來是鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10842.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10851.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
陳冠廷委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在那接下來我們請林淑芬委員發言好 謝謝主席是不是請我們王副秘書長還有這個次長請王副秘還有次長委員好副秘早安 午安 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10871.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10881.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
因為我要諮詢的還沒開始聽到王委員剛才諮詢我突然想到加爆防治法第31條跟刑事訴訟法第114條兩個法的運用怎麼競合 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10887.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10913.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
你剛剛講的家暴防治法有得為羈押如果有必要羈押得為羈押可是遇到刑事訴訟法114條如果他申請拒保三年以下的刑期他申請拒保一定要給他交保這個是霸王條款所以當31條的家暴防治法31條遇到刑事訴訟法的第114條怎麼競合 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10917.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10930.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這是因為剛才聽到你們的質詢我特別問的如果有加爆法的狀況它又符合修法114條的要件它還是不能夠擠壓還是有114條的適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10934.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10957.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對啊 所以我跟你講真正的問題是卡在罷網條款是114條而我昨天在未還委員會就質詢過了這個治本的方法必須要把家暴房治法的這個違反保護違反家暴法的刑責要提高到5年以下才能夠解決刑事訴訟法114條的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10960.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10987.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
而為什麼他必須要提高到五年以下是因為第一個家暴的這個犯罪人他已經是違了法律所禁止的事了第二次人家告訴你合法家暴保護令的時候是第二次告訴你而你還是無視於法律的存在你還繼續家暴所以這個普通傷害罪都五年以下了 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10989.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11006.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這個違法一次違法兩次到第三次你還三年以下而三年以下會碰到刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法的這個三年以下如果被告申請拒保你們非給他交保不可不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11009.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11035.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
原則上是他如果單純違反交暴法是但是我們交暴法他常伴隨著其他附隨的犯罪他違反交暴法其他犯罪他就不是三零下的罪但如果單純的呢單純的話就是委員現在我跟你講現在被押的剛才王委員質詢幾千件為什麼只有兩百多個被押因為那些人就是刑事訴訟法第114條裡面的但書的符合的就是累犯有犯罪習慣等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11036.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11045.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
如果沒有的話其實是無法押的所以我再說一次土城當街殺人的信義計劃區馬上殺人的違反保護令罪馬上殺人的都是第一次其實要押完全不可能押不是檢察官的問題而已也不是法官的問題是我們法律的工具不夠的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11060.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11064.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
責任在我們的法律出了問題好嗎 好市長請回我不是要問你抱歉喔我今天不是要問這個題目我想我已經問三遍國民法官審判的事情了今天終於找了一個聽說找了一個業務懲判單位的法官來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11082.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11105.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
上個禮拜呢上個禮拜我問你副秘書長昨天我問刑事庭庭長我問說你舉個例子告訴我什麼是什麼樣的案件案情是符合國民法官法第六條第一項第四款所說的被告認罪了經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認為不行國民參審的為適當的情形來 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11112.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11117.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
再說一次今天有貝爾來了上一個上個禮拜你旁邊那個法官姓什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11118.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11148.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我又忘了你上次的呂法官上來然後我說這個例外可以不行這個國民法官參審的例外你舉個例子給我聽他說有涉及到生命法益的案子上個禮拜副秘書長還有你的呂法官這樣子回答我根本就是在胡說八道我再問你的是不適用國民法官的情形他回答我的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11149.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11174.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
故意犯罪因而发生死亡结果要适用国民法官法这个是答非所问所以我再问一次你们昨天刑事厅厅长我再问他第二遍他回答我说被告认罪对于刑度及证据调查没有意见检察官及辩护人都认为不用国民法官为适当 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11176.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11203.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這種說法有回答跟沒有回答是一樣的所以在這種狀況裡面根本就是把條文的內容再簡單的講一遍而已你們司法院自己把條文訂的這樣子看起來高深莫測沒有人可以解讀得出來你們到底是在講什麼你們法官也不用所以要你們舉例你們一個例子從上個禮拜的你到昨天的廳長一個例子都舉不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11204.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11207.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
昨天給我的書面你們下班以前給了我一份書面好像六頁還是幾頁 六頁這個書面裡面也沒有回答出什麼條件 什麼例子是適用第六條第一項第四款的通通都沒有所以在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11228.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11239.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
你可不可以再有備而來的第三次了質詢第三次了再講一次第六條第一項第四款所講的大概例子是什麼樣子可不可以再講一遍好來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11242.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11249.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
報告委員 針對實務上有關第六條第一項第四款的相關適用情形因為我們現在有在做行銷評估其實只要轉軌的話都有進行相關裁定書的公告我們透過海撈所有的裁定書之後進行分析大致上分析出有兩種類型一種類型是說原則上被告認罪被害人的家屬這邊也同意給被告清醒的機會大家也同意轉軌這種情況下會所謂的大家也同意轉軌大家是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11271.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11298.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
大家指的意思是說檢察官沒意見通常被告辯護人會申請要轉軌檢察官沒有意見這個情況下通常有可能會轉軌但是還有另外一種類型他們認為考量到說是國民法官法基本上是要實現所謂的公共利益也就是說所謂的反映國民的法感情有量刑上的考量所以即便是在有這樣一個情形下他還是覺得說還是要讓國民法官來量刑你講的第二種狀況等於這個法條這一款可以廢掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11302.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11321.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
你講的這個狀況第四款可以廢掉了因為大概像實務上分析大概兩種運作情形是這樣子我叫你舉例子不是叫你說你去海撈一下你這個講的很像是說未來的試用基準要這樣子定不是不是這個委員因為我們這個部分是分析全國裁定的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11321.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11335.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以說是能夠實施反應現況的所以你的第一種是是講可以不適用嘛第二種是講不能適用嘛因為目前就是有寬延兩種標準因為抗告的情形比較少所以說還不知道說這個高院這邊的對於這樣一個適用基準的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11337.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11358.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
現在我不再講這個由此可知從第一次上個禮拜第二次昨天的廳長到現在第三次你們到立法院來叫你們舉一個例子你現在跟我講說你去海拉的所有的裁定以後發現有這幾種現象但我現在問你說你舉一個你們定這個條文定成這個樣子你們想像的到底是什麼這個跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11360.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11381.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
既有的已經做成才訂的不一樣的兩件事喔你們訂這個條文條文是你們訂的然後呢你舉一個例子來跟我說你們認為要適用這一款的例子是什麼案情是什麼條件事才會符合你的條文所說的你們到現在第三次了講不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11382.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11402.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
昨天你們給我的書面資料第四頁說成效評估委員會也建議你們要新增裁定不行國民法官的適用基準你連什麼樣的案子的類型可能是符合這第四款的你三次講不出來然後你們的成效評估委員會要你們訂基準我看你們也根本訂不出來因為連例子都說不出來能夠訂什麼基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11411.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11422.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
其實在國民法官法第六條立法理由就講得很清楚說原則上要對量刑沒有重大爭議只不過對於量刑有沒有重大爭議這件事情到底要到什麼樣的量刑有沒有爭議是要結果以後了要結果以後現在是在講還沒有審判以前我要申請不是用國民法官參審一個是審判之前就要符合資格可以不審判你現在回答我說量刑是審判以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11438.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11452.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以你現在是在說什麼因為有關於這個量刑的部分當然是最後一個法院認定的結果可是在準備程序的時候呢在所謂的國民法官制度下呢原則上檢察官跟辯護人員檢察官這邊會有進行求刑的動作所以會針對這個部分來進行相關的討論檢察官求刑跟量刑結果傷害國民要符合國民感情這是兩個程序不同的階段耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11460.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11479.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
然後現在講跟你講第六條第一項第四款舉一個例子告訴我你們想像的這個符合可以例外的條款的案子舉不出來到現在舉不出來然後屢屢到這裡來都胡說八道上一次的呂法官昨天的廳長好 算了我現在再問你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11480.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11506.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我舉一個例子你們都沒有看見這個問題這麼嚴重嗎當初做改革的時候國民法官法通過的時候我們以為是高舉著進步的這個高期大期可是這樣運作下來我就告訴你們宇宙新廠是要提醒你們真的有很多制度面執行下來有很多缺失和問題而你們都不願意承認不願意看到那我再舉一個例子好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11507.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11530.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
前一陣子有一個發生清潔隊員侵占電鍋被起訴貪污的罪這種案子的類型很多出犯的條文都是貪污治罪條例第四條第一項第一款侵占公有物罪實際上事實上侵占清潔隊員侵占一個人沒有他的電鍋但是法定刑期多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11533.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11543.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
10年以上 罪很重這些被告通通就認罪了這時候要不要適用國民法官法 明年起明年起是需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11544.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11565.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
認罪了親戰的東西這麼小依照國民法官法第五條的規定原則上適用好 你不要講我現在再提醒你是適用國民法官法但是這些清潔隊隊員都是社會經濟的弱者他們不懂法律一犯罪就犯了十年以上有期徒刑的罪而且他們就會立刻認罪輿論甚至認為不應該起訴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11570.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11597.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
你要講國民感情國民感情甚至會認為不應該起訴的結果呢明年起要適用了要適用國民法官法冗長的程序審理你們自己法官都受不了國民法官反省的程序所以才會對辦理國民參審的法官減分案結果你們減分案當事人程序冗長飽受折磨 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11600.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11620.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
當事人都認罪了你們他剛剛講的或許第六條第一項第四款他講的第一個條件人家受害者家屬也願意原諒他了受害者家屬也認為說不要再國民參審了可是你們都還要堅持要人家陪你們玩下去玩一出國民參審的法庭大戲不可要人民怎麼信賴你們司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11626.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11651.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個未來怎麼辦 十年以上 他也是適用國民法官法的這一種 到現在 你們都還是認為說 一定要陪你們審到完嗎報告委員 這當然是原則上依照國民法第五條的規定符合相關的規定 故意犯罪致人於死 或第二階段十年以上有徒刑當然就是原則上要適用 但是當然 個案情況下有可能會依照第六條的依照案件的情況 第六條哪一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11652.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11674.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
如果是非常複雜的情形的話當然有可能是有第三款的繁雜性條款第四款可不可以第四款的部分尤其涉及到是有依照立法理由要必須量刑沒有爭議那在目前的實務上的話它量刑會有爭議嗎清潔隊隊員欠佔一個破電鍋人家國民的感情是希望你連起訴都不要啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11676.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11692.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
委員我想補充一下因為委員舉的這個例子他不是國民法官他出問題不是在國民法官這邊的設計而是說對於貪污自罪條例對於這些財務非常輕微的我們的司法刑事政策要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11693.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11719.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那這個部分法務部事實上他們也都一直很加緊的就是在做了很多的到現在沒有改變以前你不要跟我講法務部不要再講為稅不起訴你不要跟我講這個到現在沒有100%剔除以前不要講這個事實上我現在就是在跟你講國民法官法你明年起十年以上的重罪通通都要改國民法官審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11721.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11743.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
現在清潔隊侵占一個電鍋就是十年以上貪污的罪好 我現在再跟你講另外一個問題昨天你們廳長在這裡答詢他說怎麼可以讓被告有選擇要不要適用國民法官的權利被告沒有選擇權現在我要講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11746.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11762.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
看就是說第六條第一項第四款喔是我們決定的啦不是你被告可以申請的啦你們不斷高舉著刑事訴訟是以被告為主體才改良適當事人進行主義同時還要發現真實在這種狀況裡面啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11767.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11777.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
為什麼作為刑事訴訟的主體對於要適用什麼樣的程序會沒有選擇權你們廳長的言論代表你們司法院嗎你們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11781.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11797.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
刑事訴訟的主體是這個被告當然是主體刑事訴訟制度要分成兩部分用一般程序的就說被告是訴訟主體用國民法官法的就說被告不是訴訟主體那被告不是訴訟主體難道是客體嗎是讓你們任你們隨便 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11800.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11822.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
予取予求任你們宰割的課題嗎你們自己都不會覺得矛盾嗎一下子說被告是訴訟的主體然後昨天廳長說被告沒有選擇程序的權利你們這樣子搞他是代表你們司法院嗎這樣子有辦法讓人民信服你們一下子這樣子 一下子那樣子到底被告是不是訴訟的主體昨天廳長這樣講他沒有選擇進行什麼樣程序的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11831.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11853.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
他是代表你們司法院嗎那報告委因為這個部分基本上被告有沒有選擇權這個事情基本上在國民法官法立法過程中就已經有討論過很多了那後來決定沒有選擇權的原因是因為考量在目前有採取所謂這個選擇權的國家對於國民參審的一個部分其實案件都非常的少 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11854.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11873.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那其實就會失去了那你第六條第一項第四款是什麼一回事你就是要反映國民法第六條的例外條款是什麼一回事第六條的一個情況呢基本上是原則上適用國民法官法的前提下呢謹慎的所以假如適用國民法不請國民法官審判的門開得很小耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11876.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11896.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
他的門開得很小就第六條第一項的幾個條件而已那我也沒有叫你打開我也沒有反對國民法官訴訟的審理我現在講的是說你訂了第六條第一項的可以例外的條款而你們的門人家法律明明法律所許可你們這個門就給他關起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11899.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11916.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
然後他跟人家講說你沒有選擇的權利就第六條第一項可以例外許可的狀況當事人有沒有選擇的權利有沒有蛤 有沒有報告委員 依照目前第六條的一個設計呢基本上被告是沒有選擇權的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11918.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11924.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我在講例外的條款例外的條款所以你們整個刑事審判的體系是分成兩個架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11931.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11954.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以怎麼樣國民法官法就剝奪了他的訴訟主體的位置了報告委員那個有關於被告是不是訴訟主體現在你們今天在這裡答詢的昨天講一個樣子今天講一個樣子明天還會再講一個樣子所以今天為什麼人家對你們司法制度上連制度上都沒有辦法信賴因為你們在這裡亂說嘛好我現在在講增進人民對司法的信賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11955.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11978.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你要人家的對你們信賴方法很多你們法官要做出正確的判斷法官要像個法官不要幫助人犯脫逃一個中文治安兩個高院的法官一個還是庭長庭長到現在都多久了你們司法院給我們什麼交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11982.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11996.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我沒有在講這個很認真我現在跟你講說要推國民法官法你們就要把制度弄好要好好的弄弄好所以你們為什麼人家就那麼討厭你我舉一個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11998.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12025.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我以前質詢過我們在講說為什麼曾經我們在曾經我們辦公室因為工作需要上網查詢了一件判決書要查詢台北地方法院行政訴訟有關飲水法事件的判決判決日期在111年結果查不到在你們判決系統查不到我們去詢問司法院司法院了解的結果是當時系統沒有上傳成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12026.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12048.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以裁判書的重要是在於透過裁判書的公開的機制要來監督法官的裁判是否公正和妥適要保障人民的權利確保法院是不是有公平審判除了兒少 性侵 國家機密制裁法其實所有全部都會在裁判書系統上公開 對吧好 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12050.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12069.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
可是我們查詢這件無關乎不能公開的也非屬裁判書遮隱原則的在海量的判決當中就是剛好撈到沒有上傳的怎麼會這麼巧呢怎麼會這麼巧呢我就發現一個個案抱歉在我的手機上我會拿出來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12073.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12088.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好再請林委員要掌握時間我們已經按鈴六次了因為您的這個質詢問題很重要所以就是最後我是最後一個對也是希望最後可以在兩分鐘之內結束謝謝好來媒體報導這個前幾天的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12096.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12113.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
25年11月12號17年前姐弟戀談分手 勒死他這次女友想分手 再勒斃他恐怖情人收押結果就有人來告訴我們了17年前的當事人的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12115.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12132.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
他判刑18年但很多人想說 欸 這累犯欸而且顯然他的行為相當人格上有異常人家要跟他分手就勒避他兩次了而且現在假釋期間還未滿就再勒避另外一個女朋友然後我們就想說 當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12133.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12149.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我們就告訴我們說你知道這個18年前判決這一個理性男子18年的法官是誰你知道嗎這個完全沒有涉及不能公開喔這一個法官叫什麼名字你知道嗎查詢不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12154.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12171.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我們查詢了 查詢不到當事人有來陳情告訴我們18年前的案件查詢不到這個案件 你知道為什麼嗎因為這個法官現在是司法院的高官我就不要講了 昨天有在現場的司法院的高官 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12175.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12184.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
怕人家查詢到這樣的案子名譽不好所以就讓我們查詢不到你知道嗎我現在其實不是要講這個個案啦我現在是要告訴你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12193.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12212.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你們從這裡這個就是為什麼司法失去人民信任的主要核心你們還可以利用權力為高官把他的判決書不名譽的不符合國民感情的不符合社會期待的遮掩起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12213.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12221.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
違法的遮掩起來司法院的高官你自己回去看我剛剛跟你講了什麼案件日期報導媒體報導的我現在再問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12226.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12236.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我想那個原因應該是有一些誤解司法院絕對不可能沒有誤解當事人的朋友來陳情然後他們就說是某個高官判決現在我們去查詢 查詢不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12246.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12257.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
本辦公室去查詢 查詢不到好 這不是我今天要質詢的主題我是說司法的官真敗壞就是這樣子我現在問你國民法官案件的證據調查你們書面報告給我的書面報告第二頁說有簡便雙方向法官說明證據的證明力我問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12265.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12270.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
在說明這個證據證明力的時候不就是會講到證據的內容嗎沒有講到證據的內容是要怎麼跟法官說明這個證據需要調查不講內容法官說沒有調查必要性就不調查了嗎講了內容請問法官不就預斷了嗎所以你父子妻女啊你如果怎麼做都不對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12292.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12316.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
講內容也不行 不講內容也不行司法院這樣子父子妻離你都不覺得這個制度有問題嗎準備程序證據調查的申請由陳審的法官去負責要不要受理這個證據調查決定要不要證據調查不講內容跟講內容都不對啊我再問你 這樣子行嗎你說要回答 讓你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12317.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12341.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
來 你來講委員 其實您提示的這個就是一個證據開示的那個制度那它就是這樣子運作的這個不是只有在怎麼這樣子運作 你昨天沒有來國民法由陳審的法官去負責國民法官的證據調查方式如果是號稱事先不知悉案件內容的法官去負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12342.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12354.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
完全都不知道 那人家來請你做證據調查你簡直叫法官 這個法官他都不知道案情也不知道證據的關聯性 也不知道內容的話要嘛摸黑審理 要嘛瞎子摸象 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12356.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12371.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
要嘛就是法官已經預斷他看了他就是要預斷嘛要嘛他就什麼都搞不清楚不管他是產生預斷或者是什麼都搞不清楚因此而做成的證據要調查或不調查你們都不覺得這樣子的制度設計有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12377.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12383.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
為什麼國民法官法第44條可以規定關於羈押的決定是由另一組法官處理而證據調查的決定卻不能夠比照辦理呢你們司法院都會講法律講求證據結果你們法官法的案件對於證據的調查要嘛太嚴格要嘛又太寬鬆寬鬆就算了如果採一個嚴格的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12401.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12412.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
如果不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不服然後上訴之後還不能改判現在你知道法官都不知道案情內容那申請證據調查他怎麼判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12417.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12422.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以這個證據是篩選過的呈現給國民法官看的證據可以再更簡短 對 因為我們已經給你很多時間了好 謝謝 抱歉 我講一下因為這個案件真的比較複雜呈現給國民法官看我們還有下一次的機會 麻煩一分鐘呈現給國民法官看的證據是篩選過的由號稱不知案情的陳審法官決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12439.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12468.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
而這樣的證據是篩選過的給國民法官看判決會公平嗎而且一審的判決到二審上訴之後法官不能改判耶不能改判耶然後你們不准人家救濟不准 如果你法官證據調查下不准人家調查又不准被告對於不准調查的裁定不服然後上訴以後還不能改判這樣子的司法制度不是草菅人命嗎而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12469.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12474.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
國民法官審的都是重罪重罪 這個問題這麼多你們不覺得這個問題有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12480.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12500.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
報告委員 這邊簡單的回應一下委員的意見回應一下委員的問題第一個有關於證據裁定的問題基本上你說要照昨天給我的書面資料來回答就不用了不是這樣 原則上應該說在準備程序的時候為了要申請調查證據本身並不會去朗讀相關的證據的內容給對方你不要再這麼亂講了基本上只會依照他想要申請調查的證據所要預證明的那個代證事實跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12507.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12508.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這個證據的證明沒有講內容法官怎麼知道要他的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12514.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12538.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
在哪裡講的內容以後不產生預斷嗎但我再問你什麼叫行政違卷行政違卷是稍微你有聽過行政違卷嗎我我我最後一題而已最後一個我兩分鐘抱歉不是我們今天已經行政違卷因為我們還會安排可是後面沒有人我只有兩分鐘沒有我們今天已經真的時間稍微真的求求你我只有兩分鐘我最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12538.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12550.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
行政委卷最後一個行政委員趕快回答行政委卷 昭緯我想你也沒聽過他在國民法官法施行細則第136條第4項意思是法院去函查 函調回來的資料這個資料要編入行政委卷連副秘書長都沒有聽過為什麼這樣設計一定是因為說不要讓法官產生預斷這個叫做掩耳盜鈴 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12565.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12588.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
法院去含查 含調回來的資料送到法院法官第一個看到法官看到以後才會批示這個資料要編入行政委卷你們掩耳盜鈴你們法官明明看到了故意講一個名詞叫做行政委卷然後再欺騙人民說法官沒有看到喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12589.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12599.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
你們在說什麼 這樣子能夠增進國民對司法的信賴嗎你們說國民法官的案件法官都沒有看到 不會預斷誰相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12602.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12630.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
報告委員有關行政委卷那相關於審判卷中喔那審判卷中只有編入審判卷中法官才會看那行政委卷的話我們會把它命中起來行政委卷就是交付到法官桌上然後要交付他交付到行政委卷法官你可以用道德約束法官不會翻開看如果行政委卷的資料只有一頁一頁就看光光如果是一堆他說我不敢翻開看你知道他有沒有翻開看有沒有翻開看不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12631.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12649.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
行政委員函查回來資料就寄到法院就是送到法官的桌上去批示放到行政委員我看過真正的卷中我想對今天這個林委員其實提的很多的意見都非常重要我請司法院回去要好好的言行 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12649.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12665.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
但是副秘書長都沒有講半句話我現在在語重心長這樣講要推國民法官法你就把制度好好的設計理論面利益良善但執行起來存在這麼多的問題你們如果毫無反應還是本位主義你們都不願意思考和檢討犧牲當事人的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12668.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12685.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
再度破壞人民對司法的信任啦好謝謝林委員因為這個我想這個部分的話就之後再講了因為國民法官法的第六條的部分正好本席其實也提出了相關的修正案那麼很快大家就可以看到本席修正案就完全就是他也不只是第六條啦對還有很多的問題但是確實在第六條的部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12691.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12712.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這個明明國民法官法的目的就是希望能夠對於重要的案子能夠召開國民法庭可是事實上在執行起來的時候變得很多都是不執行這的確是很多的問題所以也謝謝林委員今天的指教很多是在破壞國民法官的基本精神沒錯你們這個換一組法官來處理程序問題受理證據調查的決定與否 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12718.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12747.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那個不成審的法官可以完整的看到卷宗他可以知道因果他可以知道這個到底要不要准他調查你們卻讓一個什麼都不知情的法官成審的法官去處理這個問題這樣子對嗎然後你們在羈押的時候就換另一組法官了為什麼在證據調查上面不用換一組法官呢好 謝謝李委員我想這個問題真的很大那麼我們之後我們市委會會再安排相關的國民法官的專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12748.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12760.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
副秘書長謝謝今天這個秘書長不要這樣子強害現在正在進行國民法官程序審判的這些當事人的權利好 謝謝林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12764.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12785.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
接下来蔡义渝委员蔡义渝委员蔡义渝委员不在那么我们今天所有登记发言的委员都已经发言完毕了询答结束那委员执行时候要求的提供相关资料或已书面答复者就请相关机关尽速送交个别委员以及本会好那么我们今天的这个询答以及报告都已经完毕了那么 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12788.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12802.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
就是議程討論事項第一到第四案報告及詢答完畢那我們決議就是要另定期繼續審查那本次會議就進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12814.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12820.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好好 |