| IVOD_ID |
17050 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17050 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-19T08:38:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-19T13:20:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:41:23 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc0f0f97671e11b2e1096bbb1dd0f78a48914d0d15f34b2c025aead76d43fc3be95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、經濟部、金融監督管理委員會、個人資料保護委員會籌備處等就「太子集團涉詐案、跨部會防詐及打詐成效，以及參考新加坡打詐鞭刑入法之可行性評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:38:37 - 13:20:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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報告委員會初席委員10人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會各位官員各位委員媒體大家好那我們今天現在就進行開會喔那麼首先呢就先進行報告事項請宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1300.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1319.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第八次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一四年十一月十七日星期一上午九十二分至十一時五十四分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十二人請假委員莊瑞雄委員一人列席委員林德福委員等五人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1320.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1349.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席官員 法務部部長鄭明謙等人 主席王釗及委員小林報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請法務部部長 法務部調查局局長 經濟部部長 財政部部長 交通部部長 行政院公共工程委員會主任委員環境部法務部廉政署 臺灣中油股份有限公司董事長 臺灣電力股份有限公司董事長等就中油三接福包工程款爭議及近年來國營失業貪圖案件查處成效進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1350.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1353.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好那我們現在先介紹到場的委員以及列席的官員首先介紹黃國昌委員然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1379.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1405.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
緊接著再介紹的是司法院的其實廳長李大任李廳長今天還有法務部部長鄭明謙政部長法務部調查局的陳百利局長行政院打詐指揮中心的指揮官馬勝元次長內政部警政署的張榮興署長其他的列席官員我就不再逐一的介紹並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1406.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1418.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那本次議程的排定是太子集團的涉炸案跨部會的防炸及打炸成效以及參考新加坡打炸邊形入法的可行性評估的專題報告以及詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1419.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1442.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 那麼接下來就先進行報告那麼我本席在這裡邀請法務部法務部調查局行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心以及內政部警政署的官員報告那每位發言時間三分鐘為限好 那麼首先先請法務部的政部長報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1449.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1474.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉要列席代表本部報告並被質詢至報告如下進行質疑首先有關北檢偵辦太子集團跨國詐欺以洗錢案件在今年11月4號執行搜索具體最終羈押4人部分被告拒保並同步扣押超過45億元價值的不法財產包括不動產名車及金融帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1476.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1504.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
此案為大型跨境炸區洗錢犯罪本部國兩司將以國際刑事司法互助及司法互助協定權益協助調查同時執法辦案團隊將持續收集釐清案請積極偵辦查組向上溯源嚴懲犯刑有關發布會防詐及打詐成效部分本部督導台高檢署持續溯源追查強化犯罪所的查過訪問機制並將查緝過程所發現強化的防詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1505.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1517.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
措施回饋給行政機關 共同強化防詐周圍此外 行政院114年11月13日已通過詐房條例修正草案 再懲詐之修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1518.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1540.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
重點包括第一提高炸防條例的法定刑責擴大適用範圍最終可處七年以上有期徒刑第二加速填補被害人財損若未在一定時間內賠償調和解的金額不可減免刑責第三增訂禁舍條款被告在未賠償前禁舍行為將那為良心考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1541.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1562.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
詐謗條例修正常委已在13日送大院審議 懇請大院支持有關事我參考新加坡打詐編刑入法我國社會及法界能有正反意見新加坡於2025年擴大詐欺犯罪的適用編刑同時刪除部分其他罪名的編刑規定這個議題涉及兩公約及酷刑公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1563.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1589.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本部昨日已召開行修會議討論聽取檢審辯學及機關代表專業的一個意見將程序收集外國立法律作為後續評估的參考同時本部結合其他打詐國家隊成員透過行事及行政分析合體強化公司合作嚴密防詐網路以減少詐欺罪數及民眾損害使民眾有感政府打詐決心以上報告進行指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1591.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1613.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好 謝謝曾部長待會兒可能再請司法院的理聽長之後再報告然後我們不好意思剛剛因為遺漏了那麼接下來在下一位長官報告之前因為我們之前的議事錄已經宣讀完畢 尚未確定那麼現在我們就先確定議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1615.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1628.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
請問在座的兩位委員我們對於上次的議事錄有沒有錯誤跟遺漏沒有 沒有的話我們的議事錄就確定 謝謝接下來我們就先請法務部的陳柏麗局長來報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1635.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1657.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就本日的會議主題進行專題報告請提出報告如次進行指教本局執行集團性電信網路詐欺案件114年即增辦221案那查扣不法所得是3億餘元不含太子集團案45億餘元 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1659.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1681.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
然後查扣了這個機房跟水房有36座那在查緝跨境電信詐欺的部分立案了72案那目前還有23案正在進行國際情資交換以及尋求司法互助在跨部會合作的成效部分本局與通傳會積極防堵黑莓卡還有人頭SIM卡貓卡池的設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1682.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1693.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那在與這個速發部的合作部分鑑於這個三資業者協助這個詐團涉嫌這個洗錢等案那本局與這個速產署 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1695.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1718.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
加強有關情資的交換以及行政監理的合作在有關金管會的部分本局與金管會啟動跨部會虛擬資產的合作機制提升行政及查緝的效率其次報告太子集團涉債案的調查目前的概況因為本案在偵查中以下的報告內容經檢察官同意向貴委員會報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1720.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1726.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本局洗錢防治處從108年起陸續有接獲銀行申報的案官的金融資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1728.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1752.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
並且都先後的沿邊的加值金融情報二十六件來分送給相關的機關然後逐步的勾勒出太子集團在台的組織架構還有成員的身份金融帳戶以及持有資產的狀況那本案這個美方在十月八號起訴陳志等八人並且美國財政部的外國資產管制辦公室在十月十四號 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1754.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1774.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對陳志等146個目標實施制裁包含三家台灣的公司以及三名國人北檢在10月15號指揮本局的台北市調處還有刑事局分工本案在10月24號向台北地院申請扣押不動產車輛還有銀行的帳戶並且在27號獲得法官的裁准 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1779.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1792.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那全案在專案小組11月4號發動偵辦以後目前正在全力的擴大來清查涉及有關黑道還有政治獻金以及其他的共患 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1793.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1822.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那在持續的進行這個情資的交換中那其次報告有關這個參考新加坡打炸邊形路法的可行性則上帶從國內的行事政策人道人權保障以及這個民意所向等各個層面來進行更多的討論以後再行考量以上報告敬請指教好 謝謝沈區長那接下來我們請行政院打炸中心的指揮官馬世元次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1830.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1846.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席委員以及各位先進大家早安行政院打擊炸機指揮中心針對今日有關列席貴委員會報告太子集團涉案以及跨部會防炸及打炸相關成效以及邊形入法可行性評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1847.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1870.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
進行說明第一有關於跨部會打詐的部分行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的工作主要是針對跨部會的協調機制利用數據分析來找出潛在的問題並且做提前部署所以目前我們在工作上主要是跨部會的打擊詐欺的決策會議以及跟地方政府定期召開聯席的打擊詐欺的協調聯繫匯報 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1872.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1890.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那麼地方政府的同仁也對中央在執行各項打擊詐欺的政策以及地方執行的成效互相交換意見那麼在過去從今年開始我們到10月底我們總共在降伏的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1891.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1906.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
總共在財損的部分降低49.9%那麼在數據的部分降低24.6%具體的數字看來是呈現有效的而且具體在持續下降那麼有關於太子集團的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1907.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1927.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
目前有檢察官指揮辦案當中但是以太子集團的個案來說包括對於殭屍公司的清查我們目前跟經濟部已經在進行協調未來對於公司設立以及公司的金流的部分那麼會研擬後續的一個管制措施的一個強化那麼以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1928.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1953.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
行政院洗錢房子辦公室在預警監管的部分也會跟本中心共同來合作那麼至於有關於新加坡引入打詐邊行入法的部分這部分我們尊重主管機關的決定那結語的部分就是本中心持續會進行對於阻斷詐騙生態系繼續努力那麼也會跟各部會來持續合作謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1955.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1959.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好 謝謝次長接下來我們請內政部警政署張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1966.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1993.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席 各位委員 大家好那有關太子集團的這個炸雞的查取的作為部分那這個案目前是由地檢組指揮本局刑事局跟調局在做指揮偵辦那已經有啟動這個兩波的行動分別在十月四號五號以及昨天的十一月八號那這個案還持續在做偵辦當中那至於我們打造的這個相關的成效剛剛我們馬指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1995.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2011.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
關於就做說明那可以顯從去年的十月的炸氣案件到今年的十月每個月的這個發生數大概在去年大概十月在一萬八千件那今年十月大概一萬三千件那金額大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2012.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2030.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
降了大概差不多有快50%左右案件降了差不多24%有略渐有往下走了這樣的一個狀況不過我們還是有非常大的努力的一個空間具體的這個狀況就是說有一些源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2031.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2043.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
譬如講像跟line的這個部分從今年度大概就是下架的社詐廣告有7.3萬則另外對於社詐的通團會的社詐門號大概有斷了4400多通社外的一個境外詐騙大概有323萬餘件 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2051.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2069.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那金流的主詐跟金融機構今年1月到10月份主詐大概117億那對於這個電子這個通報聯防機制上線之後在最短時間人頭賬戶的通報的警示的通報率可以達到93%那我們自己本身檢診所執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2071.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2083.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
已經有三波的一個全國性的打炸大概差的這個集團有兩千四百多團超過了金額金額有三十五億嫌犯了一萬四千名那現在正第四波在打炸當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2085.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2100.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那另外對於這個被害人的這個保護部分今年1月到10月有3.3萬件有7成的被害人通知遭射照停組匯款成功攔阻到1.7多億那另外我們從這個打造的部分應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2102.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2129.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
各單位大概可以從打雜儀表本來看每天的這個趨勢這個我們也公開整個打雜的一個狀況跟這個成效那至於banning的部分剛剛不管這法務部也有做報告這個就是可能牽涉到憲法或兩公約的這相關大概政法意見都有目前正在研議那有這個部分是屬於法務部跟大院的權責我們未來看看怎麼樣我們來做一個一個研議來做執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2131.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2139.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
做以上的一個報告 謝謝好 謝謝署長那最後請司法院的李大任廳長報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2144.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2171.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主席各位委員各位先進今天貴委員會召開本次的專案報告本院奉邀前來深感榮幸這就本院業務有關的部分提出意見進行指教有關太子集團涉案的部分就法院只有目前是受理強制處分的部分目前有檢察官在附訓之後有申請五位被告羈押那有四位四位我們法院有准許羈押另外一位交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2172.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2183.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那交保部分檢察官雖然提起勘告那高原認為說原先沒有篡政之虞也沒有積壓必要予以駁回那另外其他的被告部分檢察官互訊之後就已經預定交保了 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2184.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2204.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
又有關於打炸跟防炸的策進作為部分我們除了持續在開設相關炸機跟量型的課程之外目前大概從109年到現在大概有7000多人受訓我們也引導了量型的妥適性跟相關的一些釋法量型的妥適以及法律的正確適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2205.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2215.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我們可以從數據觀察從109年到104年我們可以看得出來我們的量性已經逐步在提升以339條之四加重詐欺為例判兩年以上的從原先109年的0.43%已經提高到7點多%但是雖然我們還是繼續在引導適當的量性 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2226.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2251.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那就我們另外就裁判沒收金額的部分那109年大概比較少大概就幾千萬那目前到14年1月到9月我們統計出來現在已經有22億的沒收的金額那我們逐漸在做一些相關的事量刑跟裁判的一個正確性那另外在法律層面方面我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2253.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2268.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
擴大我們的預防性羈押跟擴大獨任制審判的範圍我們希望是透過預防性羈押的擴大來嚇阻犯罪跟一般預防的效果另外有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2271.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2297.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
編刑入法的部分剛剛法務部還有其他各部會的先進已經報告過我們意見跟他們一樣所以我這邊不再做追溯因為編刑雖然在自古以來在世界各地雖然都有編刑但是從近代來講認為在世界人權宣言跟公正公約的相關規定明確禁止酷刑之下大部分的國家都已經放棄編刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2298.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2310.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那邊境還有一個就是以暴制暴的一些復仇的特性跟現在刑法目的跟強調教育型的體制之下可能不太相符這部分我們要審慎評估以上進行指教好 謝謝那麼接下來就是其餘的機關有提出書面報告者還有沒有要口頭補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2324.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2348.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
沒有的話我們就會將相關的書面內容請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄緊接著我們就開始進行詢答那麼本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們就先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員詢答 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2355.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2369.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 謝謝主席麻煩有請法務部部長調查局局長以及金管會今天是銀行局局長來嗎來 有請局長好 請幾位機關的長官來到請盤 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2373.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2390.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好 三位好時間的關係不一一問候太子集團啊這個跨國詐欺己前的集團的案子啊 切漏了以後我想台灣社會啊非常的震驚也讓全體的國人啊開始問一件事我們的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2391.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2406.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
講打詐國家隊講得很大聲實際上對在我國境內所從事的這麼大規模集團的詐欺也好幫忙洗錢也好卻是渾然不覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2408.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2427.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
等到10月8號美國聯邦檢察官對陳志等人提起公訴了以後14號美國的財政部宣布制裁那個時候變成公開的資訊引發台灣社會軒然我們的北檢才在15號匆匆的分案當然這個消息出來了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2431.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2450.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
台灣的人民非常的震驚舉國花瀾同時也對我們的打炸國家隊到底在幹嘛大家是充滿了非常多的困惑不過也沒有關係當政府出事的時候我們的綠媒很快就幫忙大內宣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2451.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2466.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
大內宣是什麼本報掌握我國調查局很早就掌握九家公司捲入太子集團犯罪也持續跟美國進行情報交換我每一個字都是源於媒體上面所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2467.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2482.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
來先請教一下調查局局長他說調查局很早就掌握九家公司捲入太子集團犯罪所謂很早就掌握是什麼時候掌握本案大概在108年銀行有陸續申報108年就掌握了 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2482.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2510.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
不是委員聽我說他108年銀行有陸續申報一些可疑的交易那我們就從108年開始我們也陸續有經過銀行的申報以後我們有延編了一些金融的情資分送給這個相關的執法機關以及我們的國際的所謂相關的執法機關是誰包含調查局包含那個調查局不就是你們自己你們自己分送給自己喔對那個洗錢防治署它是一個金融情報中心它不是一個辦案單位是 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2512.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2531.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以就分給你們自己調查局嗎也有警政署的部分然後也有警政署嗎然後也有國際友方的部分然後呢對 所以就是透過這樣子的一個金融情質逐步的建構我們才發現說這個集團在我們國內你們什麼時候發現了這個可能要在110年以後110年發現了110年以後 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2535.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2555.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那最后为什么是美国联邦的检察官破案因为本案其实如果委员有注意媒体本案其实是一个很大型的一个跨国的一个诈骗的犯罪其实他的总部是在柬埔寨并不是在我们台湾我们台湾的部分是他以前藏匿资产的一个请你听我讲话好吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2555.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2573.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我不是請你上來演講的請你針對問題回答就好了你等一下就會知道我為什麼會問時間問得這麼具體啊剛你說110年你們就開始發現有問題剛我問題的重點我沒有期待你們去破獲總部在柬埔寨的炸雞集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2575.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2592.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我關心的是什麼在台灣的犯罪行為調查局掌握了情資也分給情資給各個執法機關開始進行調查接下來到底做了什麼事為什麼我會這麼關心那個不是只有事後大內宣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2593.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2618.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
是在中間的這個過程當中大家關心的是我們所謂的執法機關到底做了什麼事台灣人民看到的是什麼台灣人民看到的是原來要等到美國的聯邦檢察官起訴了以後我們才匆匆的分案才開始去做強制處分這個時序我沒有捏造 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2620.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2642.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以大家會關心嘛關心如果調查局早就掌握的話從110年就掌握啦我們110年持續的掌握然後掌握了以後有分送情資而且在我們的調查局大家共同的努力之下幫助美國聯邦的檢察官破獲這個大型的跨國炸雞洗錢集團圍堵 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2645.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2672.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
針對在台灣境內的犯罪唯獨針對在台灣境內的犯罪等到人家動作了以後我們才後知後覺我為什麼問這個問題2019年4月詐騙集團密集的購置豪宅掩飾不法資金2019年7月太子集團在台灣的負責人張剛耀高調的受訪這個全部都是客觀的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2675.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2702.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
到2021年的時候檢警偵辦境外賭博網站的案件柬埔寨太子集團在台的代表人就是張剛耀就是張剛耀這是2021年不起訴處分確定現在我有一點看不懂如果你們在2020年陸陸續續就掌握了這些情資怎麼這個張剛耀當初這個境外賭博網站的案件會不起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2705.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2733.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這個大牛啊 科技有限公司就是 來來來張剛耀在台灣你們報告上面設立了這九家公司最下面一個就是大牛科技啊那在你們調查局早就掌握到了情資甚至分送情資的情況下結果張剛耀我們的檢警偵辦境外賭博網站案件結果他會不起訴處分確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2736.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2764.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那不僅僅是賭博網站的問題還有背後洗錢網絡的問題所以我現在覺得很狐疑啊你們早就掌握到了情資那這個案子是怎麼辦的誰要回答是你不知道還是發生了什麼事還是檢察官辦案不力還是你們有把情資給地檢署 地檢署沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2766.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2780.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
包委員 這個部分其實是這個太子集團它裡面內訌的問題不是啊 內訌是下一個案子他們裡面的人自己出來告這個張綱耀對不起喔 分兩個部分太子集團內訌是下一個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2781.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2804.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這是前面的案子你剛講的所謂內訌是下一個案子告侵佔的問題從台灣這邊匯走了9億的資金這是第二個案子我還沒有問到第二個案子請你看清楚這是第一個案子第一個案子是大牛科技有限公司為什麼我會點大牛科技有限公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2805.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2826.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
就是你們這是點名的這九家公司其中一個大牛科技有限公司負責人這九家公司負責人全部都是張剛耀我為什麼說我問你時間點是有具體的原因的你們說你們早就掌握了早就掌握了也分送了情資啊那我現在看不懂啊看不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2828.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2850.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個已經是境外賭博網站的案件境外賭博網站的案件在我們打詐的偵查上面通常會跟洗錢掛在一起處理嗎這個案子是發生什麼事你們真的早就掌握了嗎真的早就掌握了那是這個檢察官在辦這個案子的時候太廢嗎怎麼會這樣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2856.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2883.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
包委員 這個案子不是我們調查局受理的所以跟你們沒有關係來 那個警政署署長不是啊 因為現在事情鬧得很大了嘛然後檢察官也收網了嘛到處去搜索嘛 扣押該申請羈押的人也申請羈押了那我們現在回溯來看嘛到底發生了什麼事因為台灣社會很關心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2884.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2906.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們投入了這麼多資源成立打炸國家隊相關媒體的內宣也從來沒少過出了這麼大的事情以後調查局對社會說沒有 我們不是不知不覺我們早就發現了還提供情資因為我們提供了情資導致可以破獲這麼大的集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2907.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2928.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我越看越不懂啊那如果是這個樣子的話先不要講我們提供的情資對美國的破案幫助有多大有幫助就好善盡國際社會打擊犯罪一份子的責任但怎麼對我們自己境內的事情麻木不仁 不知不覺警政署後來有去了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2929.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2953.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那個包委員那對於剛剛所講這個調查局就是說有提供我們這邊大概在110年有5件的這個金流的這個狀況那我們也有去做分析啦那去做分析就是說不好意思啊署長剛剛你可能在下面有恍神我的問題你沒問聽清楚請你看螢幕這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2955.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2977.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
2021年檢警偵辦境外賭博網站案件柬埔寨太子集團在台的代表人張剛耀不起訴確定剛調查局說這個案子不是他們辦的如果不是調查員辦的 鐵定就是警察辦的總不可能檢察官自己下去辦吧那跟委員報告 因為這個案辦了這個結果也是有做起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2979.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3001.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
對啊但是張剛耀沒有起訴啊你們下面的工程師都起訴上面的負責人把他放掉這就是我看不懂的啊這可能是證據上的連結的問題證據上連結的問題那現在就來啦如果調查局早就發現了相關的情資也分送了結果在我們境內 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3003.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3018.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
在我們境內早就破獲了太子集團下面境外賭博網站的案件了但是國人看到的是什麼國人看到的是這個集團重要的成員張剛耀不起訴處分確定剛剛電話局局長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3022.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3043.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
後來是黑吃黑 搬錢搬了9億 鬧內訌跑掉了他怎麼在台灣這樣洗錢洗9億啊這是我們後續要去追金管會的問題但我現在的問題是完全看不懂 完全看不懂這是在我們境內的案子 調查局也說早就掌握了 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3044.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3071.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
然後也開始進行調查了開始進行情搜了結果搞了半天我們2021年有沒有辦過太子集團的案子有辦過啊怎麼會沒辦過張靚耀的案子就辦過啦但大家看到辦的結果是什麼工程師起訴負責人沒事那負責人沒事以後才發生剛剛局長我說講的第二個案子嘛黑吃黑嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3072.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3087.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
黑吃黑了以後搬了9億走現在被通緝當中2021年的案子到底發生了什麼事情我本來以為這個案子現在鬧得這麼大現在鬧得這麼大我們相關的執法部門會回溯去看在這幾年的期間當中我們到底做了什麼事案件辦的結果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3101.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3110.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
但是從今天各位在詢答上面的表現上來看顯然是沒有做到這件事時間的關係最後來請教金管會調查局一直說有相關的洗錢通報媒體下標是洗錢通報52次然後銀行局說你們會約詢相關銀行檢視是否善盡反洗錢的責任現在結果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3130.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3145.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
委員報告我們有做初步的金融檢查這10家金融機構他們在洗錢通報的過程裡面大概都有依照我們相關的規定進行相關的通報所以通報完了以後還是沒有辦法達到防治的效果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3147.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3173.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
從銀行局的觀點來看是發生什麼事情在我們洗錢房市的分工上面金融機構一定要去做有效的這個疑似可疑交易的這個我了解那現在我的問題是說我們做疑似洗錢通報的目的是要防止洗錢嘛在前端的時候先管制嘛那我現在的疑問是洗錢的通報高達52次剛剛按照局長所講的銀行該做的都有做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3174.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3199.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
銀行該做的都有做嘛在洗錢房子上面銀行該做的都有做那顯然這個洗錢房子的通報根本沒有辦法達到前端的效果沒有辦法達到前不管是預防還是偵測的效果局長你覺得我說的有錯嗎因為我覺得很困惑啦因為洗錢房子的通報利益良善 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3200.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3223.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
但是在第一端的時候常常造成一般的公民很大的困擾一般的公民做一些事情那大家也知道搞得這麼麻煩是為了要落實洗錢防治大家也盡量配合但我現在的問題來了整個社會其實付出蠻高的代價跟成本在幫忙做這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3226.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3239.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那在太子集團的這個案子裡面有洗錢房子的通報 通報52次銀行端也善盡了責任那但最後看起來是沒有什麼成效銀行局對這件事情有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3240.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3263.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
因為我們畢竟是整個洗房機制的一環那在金融機構的部分他有散盡他洗房衣物的通報那當然如果說相關的有一些那個情資的分享當然金融機構在做相關金流的這個阻擋也會更有效率所以像這一次我們有接到檢方的一個通報我們馬上就把相關的帳戶給凍結起來好最後一個問題不好意思最後一個問題來有請刑事廳廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3270.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3291.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個案子我們的法務部部長雖然通常說那個行政部門對個案不介入 不干涉 不評論這個是禮拜一法務部的書面報告寫的對個案不介入 不干涉 不評論但是太子集團的案子太大了我們的行政院卓榮泰院長都評論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3292.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3316.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
雖然是個案他也是評論 因為有委員問他說參效女助理15萬交保卓榮泰怒批法院輕放 重錯打詐士氣這個是卓榮泰講的卓榮泰是選擇性的在個案裡面會發表他的評論他怒批法院輕放 司法院有沒有什麼話要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3319.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3345.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這是個案喔那對法院的核心裁定我們原則上我們就以尊重平常尤其是你完全搞不清楚狀況遇到左翁他也不敢講喔這個部分喔15萬交保是誰交保的上次在上個禮拜我們副秘書長在答詢的時候就已經說出來了這個留存欲的部分是由檢方在訓控交保的跟法院有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3347.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3355.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
還在那邊核心的裁定你不評論法院有做裁定嗎裁定在哪裡裁定在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3359.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3368.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
然後卓榮泰怒批法院侵犯撞錯打詐士氣我現在沒有問你啊你急著趕快出來幫卓榮泰洗地喔對啊 我有請你上來回答嗎我有請你上來回答嗎我現在是請司法院表達他的意見我有請法務部部長回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3389.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3397.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以嘛卓榮泰怒批就不對嘛不管是法院15案還是檢察官15案這是個案欸行政院院長怎麼可以怒批 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3417.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3441.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
重挫打詐士氣還是法務部的立場要看誰怒批如果是院長怒批院長好棒棒超級有魄力啊院長代表我們的行政團隊代表行政團隊表達政府的立場但是如果是別人怒批這是個案我們不評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3443.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3469.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
不介入 不干涉尊重法院的裁定尊重檢察官的裁定雙標至極啊雙標至極啊沒有雙標啦這個本來就是依照回到事務的本質再處理是嘛 沒有錯啊你要趕快跟院長報告啊報告院長這要按照事務的本質來處理我們要尊重法院的裁定要尊重檢察官的裁定請院長息怒 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3470.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3478.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
不要隨便怒批重犯那個檢察官已經按照那個依照那個法院的一個裁定我們做一個事實的一個主張嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3479.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3488.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
不好意思喔我現在在講的是你應該跟左榮泰講的啊然後結果你是想到不知道要講什麼隨便上來講兩句話來舔嗎所以我說左榮泰不能夠怒批法院重放我說左榮泰罵錯人了這樣也有錯左榮泰真的罵錯人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3506.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3526.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
他罵法院幹嘛法院從來沒做裁定啊卓榮泰罵完了以後台北地院司法院還發新聞稿耶寫得很客氣啦但是翻成白話文我跟大家翻譯一下報告院長你罵錯人啦法官從來沒有做裁定好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3536.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3539.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
好 那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言好 謝謝主席有請法務部調查局還有行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心還有內政部警政署 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3563.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3570.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
有請法務部部長嗎不用那部長請你先休息法務部調查局請陳局長還有法指揮官好 謝謝主席我今天還是想要針對我們國內在打炸這件事情上其實真的已經有非常多進步因為其實國際的炸氣案件也好或是國內炸氣案件層出不窮我們甚至有看過有相關的人員對外說過台灣十一是一個練兵場 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3592.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3610.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
因為如果在台灣行得通在全世界有行得通我覺得非常遺憾但是我要先謝謝第一線的同仁這個是165打架儀表板的數字我們來看一下這幾個月以來其實詐騙案件跟財產損失的部分都有下降這個真的是因為第一線同仁等一下我要講哪一些同仁大家拼了命 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3611.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3627.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個做出來的成果我要真的非常感謝要拜託各位長官也要繼續支持第一線的同仁們給予他們鼓勵而實質的鼓勵可以有哪些呢我們來看一下這個紀錄片我不知道各位長官有沒有看過但是我跟我辦公室都看過是我們先在相關媒體上發現的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3628.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3651.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那我還看了兩次喔這裡面其實揭露了非常多165接線員的日常生活我想這個指揮官一定非常清楚對不對他們的日常生活那其實我其實想要來幫我們爭取一件事情指揮官你聽聽看如果按照他們這個排班的時間然後他們甚至有說出什麼樣的時段通常是什麼樣的詐騙案件例如說老人家比較多在早上 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3651.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3677.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
會在家接電話所以可能比較多是早上針對老人家詐騙然後到中午是什麼到晚上是什麼其實他們講得非常的清楚那甚至我們看到這個紀錄片裡面他還說到他們有時候騎車騎一騎好像都覺得有幻聽有電話打來這樣我其實之前幫他們爭取過一次就是我們有沒有辦法針對這些165接線員給予更多的身心健康支持服務我想問一下指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3679.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3697.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
委員長我們目前已經有進行勤前的那個心理諮商跟勤後的心理諮商是每一天嗎還是那個頻率是什麼還是沒關係你們回去整理我們再來討論對於他的這個心理諮商我們大概就是每個月都會定期來做辦理這樣的一個諮商 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3699.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3720.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那署長這樣好不好因為我認為那個頻率也許會超過各位長官們的想像或是他們的需求可不可以我們會後再來討論或是我們再跟你們要相關資料我們看一看立法院的預算這邊或者是長官們你們可以怎麼去想像對於這些第一線接線員的支持好不好尤其在身心健康諮詢的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3721.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3738.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那除了這些接線員的日常我看到你們的報告裡面提到非常多人其實都在第一線包含超商啊郵局啊銀行的工作人員那當然還包括如果詐欺案件成立之後檢警相關調查單位的人員或是後續司法的人其實都在第一線為我們大家服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3738.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3758.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那這個部分我想我要在這裡公開對他們至上層次的感謝因為這件事情真的非常重要如果沒有他們在第一線承擔這些業務跟協助民眾我認為我們的詐騙案件應該只會越來越高絕對不會出現儀表板向的往下可是我們還是看到一些困境跟問題要拜託各位掌柜我們一起來討論第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3759.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3776.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
關於詐騙案件還是很多這件事情可是我們來看一下這個數字這個公開的數字是根據法務統計專輯裡面那我們辦公室的同仁自己整理出來資料我們來看一下綠色的線是代表詐欺案件偵查終結的案件數這是綠色的紙條那藍色這個線是檢察官平均每一個月辦理結案的件數我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3785.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3806.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
当终结案件越来越多的时候其实检察官的平均每个月结案件数也是越来越多而这里面我相信包含了大量的诈欺案件对不对对这个数字应该是这样的如果没有错的话是这样的话我来跟各位讨论一下相关的数字我们看到在你们相关的报道里面统计表格里面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3808.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3830.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
113年總共詐欺案件偵查終結案件數是13萬件111年到了112年偵查終結來到16萬件到了113年來到13萬件也就是說每一年有這麼多案件其實是被偵查終結結束也就是第一線的同仁真的拼了命 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3831.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3853.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
想要辦完這些案件讓相關的受害人得到一個撫慰得到一個公平正義所以我相信檢警的壓力應該壓力山大對不對來看一下可是除了檢警案件的體系之外我發現法院應該也非常的辛苦我們甚至看到有一個律師他協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3854.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3873.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
他的當事人去開庭然後這個是他真實自己寫出來的他說法官一來就開砲說詐欺案多到審不完他對被害人有些喊話這個法官寫的我就不再說了不過律師提醒我們律師說其實不管你是被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3874.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3889.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
或者你是什麼樣的情況下其實這些人被害已經是很慘了那當然我們可能會覺得他們不夠謹慎可是更多的時候其實是因為他們不知道他們正在面臨所謂的詐騙案件事件的發生就如同等一下我們來舉個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3890.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3909.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那右邊還有一個貼文他說呢朋友在法院工作去年他就說前年他們一個人經手的詐騙案件就一千一百多件今年過年的時候遇到他說去年一千四百件我自己有朋友在檢調系統上班他跟我說他們有一年收到的案件同一個案件裡面的被害人就五千多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3910.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3936.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
五百多還是五千多我聽到非常非常的驚訝所以我可以想見在台灣這個現場我們的詐騙案件真的與日俱增而且是塞爆所以我剛剛為什麼要替第一線的同仁說話我認為當很多立法院委員就只有在指責這些人的時候或是交辦更多業務的時候其實沒有看見是第一線的同仁都已經被這些詐騙案件業務量塞爆塞滿我相信他們無止盡的加班都只是為了想要把這些案件辦完好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3937.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3940.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那接下來我想要談另外一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3943.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3968.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
從檢警到法官疲於奔命我剛剛已經講了 所有在第一線都是這樣檢警 法官 再更早165專線可是到了感化這邊 收容機構這邊一樣都被詐欺犯塞滿包含在少年矯正學校裡面或是少關所裡面全部佔了三分之一都是詐欺犯就連我左手邊這一張傷害罪跟竊盜罪加起來都不如詐欺罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3969.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3990.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
而右手邊這張呢 哨官所收容的第一名也都是詐欺犯也就是說我們看到因為詐騙案件從第一線的165專線然後到警察 到檢調 到司法 到最後的矯正收容都跟詐騙案有關各位長官我想問一下我們的人力要不要調整 要怎麼調整你們有沒有相關的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3994.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4011.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
有辦法調整嗎因為我真的很想幫這些第一線的人說說話就是說他們的日常業務量這麼大那我們有沒有調整人力的規劃或者可能性讓他們浪一點業務量不要這麼大然後有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4015.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4035.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
沒有就沒有 真的沒有嗎都沒有署長要不要幫我們同仁爭取一下什麼我想這剛剛說得很有道理這是我們現在工作的日常大概有百分之六十都在偵辦這些的詐欺案件那對於這個人力上不管是從機場的拍手或偵查隊甚至到那個刑事那個刑警大隊或刑事局 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4036.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4051.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
大概我們現在的治安面裡面大概面臨大概就是只有這個炸機那人力的部分確實是非常的吃緊那未來是怎麼樣的這樣的人力的這個擴編我想也在想辦法來做尤其就是刑事人員的這個警力的擴編來做一個來做這樣的一個努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4055.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4081.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好 那指揮官呢我們165這邊有沒有機會增加更多人然後減輕第一線同仁的負擔我們現在165今年在10月份我們完成法制化所以我們人力的部分未來會進入一個實質上有邊組的人力那這個部分我們會跟刑事局再來協調去支援他們包括說辦公室 辦公廳社我們現在也打算要搬遷 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4082.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4098.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
太好了因為我看到那個紀錄片那個工作環境真的是太悲欺了太悲苦了因為他們接到的電話都是悲苦的案件電話有的已經是被騙了有的即將被騙有的是打電話來查證相關謠言所以法治化之後的相關配置你們什麼時候可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4100.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4119.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
報告委員我們在這個月28號我們會正式掛牌是那掛牌之後我們希望在明年的時候能夠找到新的辦公場所是那目前已經在進行我也希望立法院要支持相關預算我們一定會支持我們也希望各個各黨委員都要一起支持165專線那個紀錄片也歡迎大家去看鼓勵大家去看好 謝謝指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4120.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4145.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 那第二個其實要講的是境外詐騙這件事情其實我們看到非常多境外詐騙的案例可是境外詐騙可能相關的數字不管是你們給我們的報告裡面說的境外詐騙電話破譯通還有相關通訊軟體而且我認為案件數量絕對不止可是我認為境外詐騙才是最難工作的一端 對嗎因為它牽扯到跟國際上不同國家的合作更不要講什麼樣國際案件例如說第一種問題叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4147.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4168.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
調查跟追緝上的難度例如說他用人頭賬戶他用網路跳板他用VPN 對嗎好 那我們台灣的檢調單位要如何跨國進行調查我覺得很難第二個 假設真的抓到了跨國我們找到的人司法上可被管轄這應該也是第二個問題例如說A國人在B國對台灣人進行詐騙這要怎麼追查 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4169.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4179.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
A國人在B國對台灣人進行詐騙 這個應該也非常難追查第三個 我們應該很多國家都沒有辦法進行司法合作 對嗎這個部分可不可以 誰可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4181.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4204.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
委員現在所講的這個跨境的這個炸機確實有一些需要再去做突破的地方那也是比較有直接的有困難不管是在這個嫌犯的查解或者是在這個相關有一些是沒有邦交的這個國家那你們通常怎麼做那我們有多透過鄰近友善的國家來做這樣的一個一個相關的一個協助可是相關負責人力應該也不多吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4204.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4229.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們鄰近的 比如講像柬埔寨跟泰國跟緬甸這一些有一些是我們比較有困難的地方鄰近的有一些國家可以來做協助幫忙我們派駐外面的聯絡官也會做這樣的一個聯繫也會做這一些相關的一個案件的相關的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4230.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4259.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
可是我們政治上其實本來就遇到很多外交的困難我相信這些政治上的外交應該也會延伸到司法調查的外交困難對不對對 這個部分應該是有在做努力的一個地方好 我只能說真的非常謝謝第一線的同仁尤其在跨國的詐騙案這件事情我認為相關難度絕對比境內還要高如果有任何你們覺得在立法院的預算端或是人力資源端可以協助的也拜託你們要如實的提出來好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員最後一個我要講防詐宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4260.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4288.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這個案子你們應該都知道對不對龍山寺前面花一千元買個資後來呢這個嫌犯原來他的動機是因為他好像是要去買什麼爬沁狗對對對他好像是去買爬沁狗這個點數還是什麼的這樣可是我認為持續宣導這件事情非常的重要因為現在每一個人雖然大家好像以為都有手機好像每個人都有LINE帳號好像每個人都會上網好像每個人都會看新聞好像每個人都會看報紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4288.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4305.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
但是偏偏就還是有很多人他好像都不在這些資訊放送範圍之內他就是還是會到龍山寺這樣的案例前面拿他的雙證件去換取一千塊在防詐宣導的部分你們今年有沒有什麼新的想法跟作為我是說明年明年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4307.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4330.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
因為就於傳統的管道我認為大家都清楚了跟委員報我們現在除了網路上的宣導之外我們現在還是針對傳統市場然後美容院以及宗教場所那我們現在都跟他們合作那未來我們跟包括超商還有咖啡廳這一些民眾消費的場所我們也會持續來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4330.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4356.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那我們今年已經開始在去年紅布條我們有第一批下去我們今年第二波再更新所以我們的重點第一個在去年是賴詐騙那在今年開始是假檢警的部分所以我們每一年我們有針對不同的主題那今年因為行政院有這個普發現金的這樣的一個政策所以我們今年對普發現金一萬塊我們也有進行相關的這樣的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4357.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4385.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好那會後可不可以再麻煩你們把相關要進行不管是假檢警或是LINE或是剛剛指揮官您所說的美容院啊宗教場所啊超商啊咖啡店這些你們相關要進行的業務範圍可不可以再給我們辦公室一份報告可以可以好簡單的已經有了給我們就可以了讓我們知道到底深入民間我們還可以做哪些事情那我們辦公室當然也會持續協助收集民意到底還有哪多更多地方是人們有趣的但可能是你們漏掉的好嗎好的謝謝瑋瑜支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4388.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4392.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好謝謝陳委員那接下來我們就請吳宗憲委員發言麻煩部長還有陳局長好麻煩鄭部長還有陳局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4416.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4421.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
兩位早安我們今天討論的一樣就是大家都知道這個洗錢集團 太子集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4422.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4446.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我想洗錢我們都知道就是把原本可能有些涉案或一些來源不明的錢把它洗白但是洗錢它有一個前置犯罪並不是說今天財產來源不明或怎麼樣就構成犯罪它有一個前置犯罪所以我在想 我想請教一下局長就我國的洗錢防治規定很清楚它建立在一個前置犯罪之上 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4448.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4468.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個前置的犯罪包括詐欺賭博 逃漏稅等等的但這個部分你同意嗎我同意 我完全同意所以錢罪加洗錢這個是洗錢犯罪成立的一個構成要件這個應該沒有問題這一次我們看到太子集團的資料金管會送給我們本委員會的專利報告裡面有寫得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4469.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4487.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
108年到現在有10家銀行對太子相關的公司申報了52次的可疑交易那櫃局呢也有發新聞稿澄清洗房處總共做了26份的分析報告送給友軍還有其他的地方嘛對不對這沒問題吧數據沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4489.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4506.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那我想請教你一個最核心的問題這26份報告以及你們所收到的52次的可疑交易你們FIU有或是你們櫃局有沒有去報請檢察官指揮偵辦因為到美方通報之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4507.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4523.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
诚如刚刚那个委员讲的这个洗钱必须要有一个前置犯罪所以从那个银行端他来申报以后其实我们经过加值分析是逐步的去标定到底是哪些人可疑哪些可疑的资产在什么位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4523.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4548.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
對 所以這段時間其實是逐步的在標定然後另外一方面就是我們必須要去蒐證他的前置犯罪 前置犯罪在哪裡答案就是沒有 從108年到現在我們經歷過了52次由銀行的可疑交易的通報再加上我們的FIU有做了26份的分析報告但是並沒有向檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4549.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4571.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
報請指揮 這個結論應該沒錯在執行前要報請指揮法務部長 部長你當時也是北檢的檢察長現在的北檢檢察王俊麗也是以前的調查局局長我想請問一下到美方通報之前北檢或是檢察官有沒有分案調查過 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4574.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4596.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這部分美方是沒有通報啦不是啦我說美方通報之前我們檢察官有沒有分案過 調查過這部分我沒有資料好 沒關係那因為剛剛那個調查局局長也有說沒有那個報警指揮我想檢察官應該也不會主動簽分出來辦部長我沒有在問你其他的問題啦我只問你第一個要釐清的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4602.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4626.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們這麼多次的可疑通報這麼多次的分析報告我國的檢方有沒有啟動過調查我們剛剛得到的結論是調查局沒有報警指揮第二個我得到的結論也是北檢也沒有分案調查這個是我之前查的也是這樣這個是10月15號有分案嘛不是啦 我在跟你說美方通報之前啦這個是美方通報之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4626.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4655.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
報告委員必須澄清一下本案美方在執行的過程裡面不管是執行前或執行後都沒有通報在美方查辦之前好不好好那我們換個角度講在美方查破這個案子之前我們的調查局以及我國的檢方在經歷過銀行52次的可疑交易通報以及FIU26次的分析報告但是我國的調查局並沒有報請檢察官指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4656.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4680.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
高委員在112年就是剛剛那個黃國昌委員那個提示的那個第二案我再問你下一個問題我跟你講啦因為這樣的結果是什麼我們人民看到的就是這麼大的事情美國也把它辦得很誇張查扣了這麼驚人巨額的那個電子貨幣查到這麼多的錢的情況下結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4681.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4707.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
結果我們這邊竟然沒有人發現人民只看到這個點人民不會去管你講了一堆的細節人民只看到原來我國這邊養了那麼大一群人是詐騙集團洗錢集團或什麼集團的人結果美方辦得如火如荼就我們沒有人知道好 人民看到的只是這樣在美方查辦這件事之前請問一下你們有在查辦嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4708.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4736.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
如果說我們不知道的話我們沒有辦法在兩週之內就那你們知道又沒有辦法就更糟糕因為這是一個跨國的犯罪你曾經嗆過我說作弊不該抓嗎你曾經嗆過我這句話我永遠記在心裡謝謝你的指教但是美方都知道要查祖賢這些人在台灣設了那麼多那麼多他的買了那麼多資產結果我們這裡你說有啊我們有查我們有追蹤然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4738.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4763.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
然後呢 然後就沒有啊就是因為有掌握所以本案我們中華民國幾乎是跟國際同步同步在執行的包括美國 英國我以前常聽到的一句話新加坡 香港壞人不抓就沒有壞人犯罪我們不查就沒有犯罪黃城之內一片祥和委員不能是這樣說啦這個就是擁有掌握國際同步來 我再問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4764.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4778.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
不要跟我說國際同步啦沒有查就沒有查人家查人家抓了那麼多人扣了那麼多錢然後呢你做了什麼就是因為有事前掌握得非常的精準所以才有然後都沒有報警檢察官指揮你騙我沒幹過檢察官喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4780.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4798.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
你調查局你立了一個案子你要查你不用找檢察官報紙灰嗎外面報紙不知道沒有錯啦你不要在那邊騙我你不要以為我沒當過檢察官嘛你報請紙灰到外面曝光這個中間多久我剛問你檢察官有沒有方案調查你們自己跟我說沒有然後現在又說有查 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4799.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4822.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個案子有兩次的報指揮 112年跟114年調查官在發現一個案子有問題的時候就會去報警檢察官指揮並不是什麼檢察官我跟你講你不用在那邊騙國人啦你要騙國人就算你不用在那邊騙我啦你調查官你今天發現有問題就會報警指揮中間有一些跟監監聽搜索等等的都要由檢察官來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4826.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4837.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
還是你們兩位離開第一線偵查太久搞不清楚第一線偵查的狀況那就算了我們接下來問我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4840.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4859.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
媒體還有警政署的報告都有說太子集團是線上博弈起家的而且在台灣還有設立兩間博弈公司請問一下這段時間以來你們有沒有用賭博罪這個錢罪去查一下太子集團在台灣的金流請問一下局長以及部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4867.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4873.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個北檢有再增半鐘嗎這個北檢那另外那個太子級剛才那一件那個黃國昌委員那個是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4875.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4898.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
刑事局那個不是啦我問你們嘛不然雖然那個電話局我想請教一下你們有沒有用賭博去當作一個前置犯罪去調查這個大筆的資金這樣往來有沒有調查的過程裡面除了賭博以外還有就是詐欺這個都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4898.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4917.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
都有作為我們這個前置在調查不是啦 我是在問一下太子集團過往從美方偵查這個新聞報出來之前你們有沒有用因為這個太子集團一直有大額的資金進出嘛那你們有沒有用一個譬如說賭博或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4918.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4938.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
逃漏稅等等的這個前置犯罪去了解一下這個錢是怎麼來來去去的這個是他交易的可疑的一個情況我們當然是依照這個可疑的前置犯罪來做這個資金不是 你們有沒有查跟不是 不要兜圈子你們有沒有用這個當作前置犯罪去開始去查這有沒有洗錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4940.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4969.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我覺得我的問題很簡單又很直接但是每次我聽到的答案都是一直在繞我跟你們說也許你會說賭博不是我調查局的業務但是我跟你講你們在113年的洗錢防治工作年報裡面你們就寫得很清楚盈利賭博意圖盈利提供賭博場所或聚眾賭博這些聚眾賭博罪等等的你們還曾經寫過說賭博是常見的洗錢前置犯罪所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4970.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4988.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
還有一個啊 選舉賭盤你們最愛查我以前還收過 兩個人對賭而已喔然後你們就移送選舉賭盤那我看到的是什麼因為查去選舉賭盤是用選舉查查的積分所以大家瘋狂的辦結果呢 太子集團這個幾十億的這種你們就當作沒看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4989.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5013.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
就好像之前我又看到嘛我還記得國民黨在罷免連署案的時候你貴局長 局長你還故意把這個以前偽造文書不會列入選舉查查的核分您還非常好心的把這種連署的偽造文書把它提高到選舉查查的核分讓全國的調查官瘋狂的辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5014.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5034.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那你就懂這一套玩法那你為什麼不把這個太子集團的這個賭博你就把它當作是選舉賭盤的案子來大量的合分來讓調查官辦呢所以我跟你講我覺得你們辦案子司法不要看顏色在辦案或看事情在辦案你這樣子搞國家真的不會進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5036.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5063.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
然後你也不要跟我說你有做過26份報告或什麼我跟你講你做了報告之後後面沒有查那這個不就跟那個股市投顧老師一樣嗎很會講啊電視上很會講啊跟他買的都賠錢啊那沒有效果嘛沒有績效那我現在看到的是你們做了很多的報告開了很多次的會26份的分析報告就沒有好的績效我跟你講那你知不知道現在詐欺是民怨第一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5063.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5092.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
如果今天是民怨第一名不要像剛剛的委員拿了一堆假數據來騙說你們做得好好好有效果現在檢察官 警察 調查官一堆被詐欺案件給淹沒搞得排擠到政察 其他襲案的調查我有多少錢的同事一直來跟我訴苦搞到大家不想幹法官不想幹檢察官了然後國人一直被騙你就一直不停的修正被詐金額的計算方式那看起來當然數據越來越漂亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5094.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5101.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
騙騙外行人可以啦我今天重點不在那裡那我也跟你們講過往你們發現很多錢進進出出 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5104.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5127.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那這個就算沒有你找不到其他前置犯罪但是有不明的資金進出跟他公司這個法人的營業的狀況也不符的時候至少有一個點我們可以切入調查是不是有疑似逃稅或漏稅那你調查局就可以下去查有沒有疑似逃稅或漏稅或者是後面牽連的洗錢行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5128.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5141.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
並不是沒有辦法啟動嘛我幹甲官的話我一定會用這個理由來去了解狀況對 我完全同意委員所以這個可疑的疑似交易進來以後我們就是要想辦法去找出他的前置犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5143.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5156.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這委員的邏輯完全跟我們是一樣不是啊 問題就是人民 我懂但是人民看到的就是沒有結果嘛那反而是美方那邊查到以後我們這邊才開始不是啊 沒有結果我們沒辦法在第一時間扣到這麼多的資產我跟你講大家2008年的時候那時候法務部派我 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5162.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5186.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
派我去上一個美國政府他們開一個反洗錢的訓練我記得當時調查局的人跟我一起去出國受訓的人我覺得他們都非常傑出所以後來APG來做我們反洗錢調查的時候其實我們的績效是非常棒的那不能這幾年開始就劣化了十幾年而已耶不到20年耶所以我們還是亞洲第一名啊不管啦我們現在是亞洲第一名啊對 但是詐騙案也是第一名啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5187.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5201.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
沒有 我們不能這樣講 這個委員你有數據嗎你有數據說我們詐騙是第一名嗎不是啊 那我跟你講太極集團你怎麼樣太極集團我們掌握啦 我們查獲啦我們詐騙是民怨第一名不是啊 詐騙是民怨第一名我跟你講部長如果你認為詐騙不是民怨第一名或你需要數據你就去問一下所有的人吧這委員您的數據 我們的數據我們不是第一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5211.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5226.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我們洗錢方式是全國第一名對啦 部長我一直跟你講詐騙現在是民怨的第一名啦現在狀況是這樣子那你今天如果你要說申職之後這數據有問題那你去問一下媒體你去問一下做民調是不是詐騙就是我們現在民怨的第一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5228.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5250.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們現在那個案件整個查獲量跟整個一個財損量已經成下降趨勢了這個我們在各個單位的報告都是成這個趨勢我想這是一個事實我們必須要做一個說明你講給人民聽啦好不好部長你講給人民聽啦你講給人民你跟人民說我們國家反詐做得好棒好不好你去講給他們聽那你今天如果覺得很棒 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5251.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5278.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我不知道反正你高興就好沒有 我沒有高興我們是說我們有在努力的空間我們一直很努力所以委內斯道現在檢警調大家對這個炸雞很努力在查總共10家銀行的52次通報還有多次的分析我看到的是完全沒有檢察官介入開始偵辦這個案子這個是一個不爭的事實那後續你要講一大堆有的沒有的我想沒有任何意義啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5279.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5303.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這個就是重點 那人民現在對打詐剛剛我進來之前有記者找我去問他就拿了一個數據說現在人民對於政府打詐的不滿意度其實剛剛跟我講的數字很高我現在忘記了 數字非常高所以你們如果一直講自己很厲害 做得很好那隨便你們 但是我今天要反映給你們聽的民意告訴我 就是做得很不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5304.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5324.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那美方今天已經查到這樣我們還要美方那邊查到了什麼他們事情爆那麼大我們這裡才第一次的開始分案調查北檢就是這樣的新聞稿啊北檢新聞稿就是這樣寫啊我們那個當過檢察官齁那分案調不是說今天明天就可以查到就是一定有提前的一個掌握嘛才有辦法你也知道要執行要訴訟要申請法院的一個核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5329.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5352.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
你現在講的就是在騙全國人民我沒有在騙全國人民那有沒有分他之案 你現在告訴我沒有分他之案的話 檢察官怎麼調查他有沒有辦法辦私案部長你現在騙人你知不知道你剛剛講說有怎麼樣然後才能分案那你告訴我啊 過往美方這個新聞出來之前檢方有沒有分他之案調查這個在10月15號就已經分案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5353.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5374.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
10月15號是美方事情爆出來之後我今天我跟你講 你們繼續再跟我兜圈子吧隨便你啦 部長部長 我現在一直問你有沒有他這案北檢的新聞稿寫得非常清楚在得知訊息之後隔天就分案如果你搞不清楚你自己去問啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5377.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5398.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
为什么我们的问题很直接那你就要你们永远答的都很模糊或者是程序上面你们在那边兜圈子在那边讲那些有的没有的我真的不懂你们到底在干什么我再问你们问题啦我跟你讲我今天在凸显的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5400.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5419.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
洗錢這一個很嚴重的問題在台灣已經越來越嚴重了那你今天一直講APG在我們國家的審查確實我們國家表現得不錯但是APG它的審查有非常多不同的項目但是我們自己在這一塊上面沒有做好讓人民不開心 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5420.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5449.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我跟你講啦我在駕訓班我在監理站的考試考100分不代表我上路開車就開得好嘛所以重點還是你要打出效果讓人民有感啊而不是說國際反洗錢組織APG來我們這邊經過他們的調查我們的反洗錢非常棒那你再去問問看世界上面金融管理你覺得我們管理的真的像你說的非常棒嗎我想你會講大家可能也不是那麼的相信啦好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5450.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5452.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以我想请教一下部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5453.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5481.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那我國被害人人數啊你今天報告說你會積極釐清我國被害人人數那請問這部分你做了什麼這部分那個是現在編寫在偵查偵辦中那這部分那偵查的要從那個整個偵查的一個結果去做一個釐清看看我們國內到底有多少的的一個被害人以及扣押的財產是不是我們被害人本國被害人的一個財產所以我想這個檢察官的一個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5481.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5499.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
被害人通常都很多時候會有很多隱性的被害人這個我能夠理解但是我要提一個就是因為這個案子太子集團這個案子其實不只說被害人眾多不單單台灣人其實被害人非常的多其實這樣子也讓我們國家顏面受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5500.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5526.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
真的顏面會受損原來他們的詐欺所得是在台灣這邊購置豪宅而且多年下來還活得很快樂很開心我們看到的是這個所以我們今天看到的一個客觀的事實是什麼是金融機關的通報義務有沒有做到有 他做了52字的STR的報告有 他有調查局的分析報告有沒有做到有你們的IFI有做了26份的報告這個也有但是檢察官的分案啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5528.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5555.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
卻是在美國開始有動作之後我們這裡才開始動這個就是我們這邊的一個大問題你不要跟我講你們掌握多少情資怎麼樣檢方沒有分他治案之前檢察官不能自己下去調查這個是我們知道的最基本所以不要說這個知道後就分案這都騙人的調查官知道這個案子像這種重大的金融案件調查官一定會先找檢察官報請指揮分他治案加以調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5556.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5577.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這是全國一致的程序如果沒有做到這個就不要在那邊跟我講我們掌握了多少那個都是在騙國人而已都是在利用所謂的偵查不公開這幾個字之下然後我們好像我們做錯事大家都不會知道你們永遠用偵查不公開來跟我們搪塞一些事但是我看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5578.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5601.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
今天調查官如果知道這種重大案件絕對是報請檢察官指揮檢察官分他字案開始調查如果有這個他字案你可以把他字案的時間給我看案號給我看那我就知道到底有還是沒有而不是在這邊講一句說我們有掌握情資我們有開始查但是沒有分案那這個其實是騙不了我們那剛剛講那幾個如果你們認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5603.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5629.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你們都有努力做了依照現役制度的努力做那表示我國的洗錢房子還有盲點存在對不對至少這個不能否認還有盲點存在所以在我們相關調查人員在依據法律程序在做完之後還是有一些我們查不到或不知道或國外已經查了我們都不知道那表示我們有盲點存在所以我在這邊要求兩件事第一個 部長你要讀同高檢署麻煩你們針對調查局這6年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5631.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5645.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
的異常通報還有這些金融情報的流程是要去進行一下行政調查看一下這些有被異常通報的這些案子有沒有值得去了解一下背後是什麼狀況這可以做到嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5647.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5673.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個是在 因為那個台高監署事實上在11月10號有召集相關的一些部會好那就麻煩 麻煩 這個是一個交換院就是一個工作小組另外各自的全管 我們是一個精進的一個好那我跟部長說麻煩你們就這6年來有比較異常通報的案例再拿出來審查一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5674.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5697.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
好 這麻煩你們然後第二個三個月內你們提出洗塵防治制度有沒有具體的具體修正方向就是說因為有多家金融機構長時間而且反覆通報的這些案例這種高風險的案例的時候你們那個洗房辦那個處FIU是不是可以就強制啟動偵查或報警檢察官的這個啟動調查這個門檻你們稍微幫我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5703.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5723.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
研究一下然後給我一個具體修正的方向好不好麻煩一下後面這兩個是三議的建議再麻煩你們做到謝謝兩位麻煩那個法務部跟調查局要依照五委員的指示提供相關的資料好謝謝那接下來我們請羅志祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5730 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5747.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
有請司法院理聽長法務部政部長調查局陳局長內政部張署長金管會佟局長好 麻煩剛剛羅委員點名的這些長官們到台前 謝謝首先我想請教我們佟局長就你現在所監管的業務或是引以至極的感覺詐騙嚴不嚴重 台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5760.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5768.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們都有配合 嚴不嚴重嘛也答不出來 換下一個 來署長 你總答得出來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5770.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5794.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙是嚴重的非常嚴重我們剛剛我們的那個吳宗憲委員說幾乎是民怨第一名這個人民的感受沒錯吧現在普遍現在大家的感覺也都有這樣的感覺那不過我們打詐是有一些成效再說了來再想請教一下我們司法院我們的李廳長剛剛署長說詐騙真的是人民深惡痛絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5795.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5813.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以我們吳委員說是民怨第一名你認同嗎我認同認同 謝謝再來請我們的局長局長你認同吳委員說民怨第一名嗎我相信現在目前這部分民怨還是很高謝謝你來 請部長我不太理解 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5814.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5838.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
為什麼吳委員說民怨第一名你可以讓你炸鍋到這種程度還叫他拿出證據出來沒有他是說我們國內我們台灣市全世界那我告訴你吳委員講得很清楚啊我不認為那你問是不是民怨第一名嘛那當然是民怨這是我民怨之首來來來我告訴你啊但是那不能我部長不用緊張但是他們說我們那個炸雞的成效部長你又來了來我們請局長上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5840.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5868.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我請局長上來部長我請局長上來了啦第三次部長我請調查局局長上來啦好不好委員好學學局長啊局長也認同是民怨第一名啊那麼解釋那麼多我說民怨很高啦好沒關係啊你要修正民怨很高也可以啦來我跟局長問局長不要緊張嘛我還肯定你咧謝謝 謝謝委員肯定你知道TBS最新民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5871.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5888.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
92%的國人認為詐欺嚴重只有4%的人認為詐欺不嚴重民怨有沒有很高啊人民深受其害痛苦啊所以我覺得真的很無聊光針對民怨第一名可以跟他們吵半天 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5890.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5905.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
你詐欺工作做得很努力我們的很多第一線的反詐人員我也要數大拇指敬佩他們啊我有否定他們的努力嗎 有沒有沒有啊但是今天我要說為什麼今天會有太子集團的這個專案報告在 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5908.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5926.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
人民能夠相信嗎 這個我後面會一一來詢問人民看到政府的做法 難道不擔心嗎我們也是基於期許希望今天我們的政府當然做得更好一關一個民怨第一名 人家TVBS民調做出來就92%認為嚴重啊只有4%的人認為不嚴重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5930.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5954.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
難道不值得政府警惕嗎政府在這一方面一直是列為施政的重點非常好 謝謝局長是 謝謝委員那我想請教局長一件事你有聽過 最近有個案子有一位清潔隊員因為同情拾荒老婦他把回收站台內一個堪用殘值只剩32元的電鍋轉送給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5956.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5982.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你知道檢方最後是以貪污自罪條例起訴你有聽過這個案件嗎有 我有聽過有沒有他說黃姓清潔隊員康他仁之凱不該助長義賊廖天丁的錯誤概念來 部長你覺得32元的電鍋以貪污自罪條例起訴然後檢察官說他康他仁之凱不該助長義賊廖天丁的錯誤觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5985.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6004.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這個的確是情形法狀我講一個清潔隊員的那個感想你來評論一下那這部分我們也你去那個那個貪污資歷條例的一個修正草案很好很好你亡羊補牢很好這個我們一直在做這樣的一個提託來我跟部長說部長你要聽我講嘛部長請問現在我要跟你換位子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6009.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6035.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
你是質詢我還是我質詢你啊我要到我的答案了嘛你可不可以聽我質詢好不好質詢時間有限我也不想耽擱後面的人質詢啊我還算客氣吧 部長謝謝委員長謝謝你那位清潔隊員感慨啊他說很後悔他不敢倒好人把這32元的電鍋送給一個處境堪憐的一個拾荒老婦啊他很後悔 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6036.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6050.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
可是我跟你講現在很多人看到太子集團囂張九年你不要說後悔當好人可能很多人要後悔沒去加入太子集團難道這個不是個警訊嗎那我現在在問真的叫捐鍋者豬詐騙者猴 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6064.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6093.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
捐一個電貨給老富 貪污啊詐騙45億台灣啦 全台 全球全球多少1500億美元1500億對不對這樣的詐欺集團啊在台灣45億的不法資產爽九年啊然後現在剛剛所有的資訊我聽到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6094.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6109.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
都覺得今天我們的法務部調查局好棒棒啊都做得很好啊沒有任何可以檢討要反省的地方啊我聽起來是這樣啊在台灣爽九年啊不是嗎來我想請教再下一個問題我想請教我請教部長今天我們看到我們請局長好了來局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6124.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6146.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
剛剛我看資訊很多重點你們說你們2019年就接獲銀行的申報的金融資料然後2021年就已經接獲相關情資展開調查那我想請教一直到今天美國方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6148.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6176.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個美國的法院10月8號起訴美國財政部10月14號對陳志等人實施制裁然後接下來我們看到檢方動起來了分工辦案扣押不動產然後搜索集團幹部具體主要幹部通知證人到案全面擴大偵辦我想請問一下局長跟部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6178.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6202.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這些包括所謂的偵辦的作為扣押的作為搜索的作為這些直接打擊所謂的詐欺銷唆的作為請問為什麼不是在今天美方10月8號起訴之前你剛都講從2019年到現在6年了吧這6年奇怪了有搜索嗎沒有嗎來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6208.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6236.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
有对太极集团展开搜索吗 有没有包委员 我可不可以回答可以啊 请你这个本案是一个大型的跨国的一个犯罪的组织我知道啦那我们接到这个异常的这个通报的时候其实都是每一笔的交易我们如何从这每一笔的交易勾勒出整个集团的架构跟成员我们倒个袋 倒个袋我只问你一个yes no嘛有针对太极集团开始搜索吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6237.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6258.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
有扣押资产吗就本案在11月4号的时候之前没有嘛我没说错嘛但是如果委员你有注意到外媒的报导这个其实是跟其他国家在国际间同步的一个行动我都说辛苦你了对你也是很礼遇啊对不对辛苦你啊辛苦9年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6260.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6279.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
至少從你知道開始六年吧如果你跟我講三個月你沒動作你一年沒動作我都解釋得通啊來台灣九年你知道有六年你開始關切調查有四年了結果到最後是美國動手我們這邊還開始又搜索又扣押又傳證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6282.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6307.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那我就你說說今天國人沒有在質疑這件事情國人有些質疑難道不是應該的嗎跟委員報告其實很多的這個國際的這個情質我們是不方便但是如果委員你注意那個外媒的報導你就可以知道說這個其實在同一個時間是國際之間同步的執行包括美國 英國 新加坡 香港都是在這個時間點同步執行大點時間給部長部長我的結論很簡單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6312.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6324.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你們一直在想這安靜你們多努力多努力多努力我剛剛講的搜索扣押傳證人通通都沒做嘛有嗎在美國動手之前有做嗎就沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6325.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6349.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
三個月半年一年兩年你沒做我沒意見啦就像我任農局長講的嘛大案件嘛對不對你要很多的東西要做要查要做嘛這個要長期的一個說證嘛左九年右九年九年過了再九年是這個概念嗎改改左三年右三年過了三年再三年剛好加起來九年啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6350.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6379.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
委員這個是辦人的一個專業部長你人生有多少9年可以做你有多少9年的部長可以做這個長期的收證部件這個長期要釐清92%的人認為詐騙研究廳永遠記在心裡面這一種的才叫進行來來我請署長我請署長委員好45億啊沒錯吧是45億應該是很大的金流吧對不對非常大的金流 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6380.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6404.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
哇 神不知鬼不覺啊九年在那邊跑來跑去沒事啊然後現在我們部長跟署長我們局長跟部長兩個都覺得自己很努力啊這努力能跟國人交代嗎這才重點吧來 請問我們的金融我們的金管會的局長童局長45億的金流不算小吧對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6409.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6434.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
你們有通報吧 對不對對啊奇怪我不懂耶人家天靈靈地靈靈我們這天不靈地不靈啦政府也不靈啦是這個回事嗎我在這邊沒有用很苛刻的方式來要求部長跟局長真的沒有可是我就講一件事情我還是那句話嘛今天金管會通報你一年兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6436.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6454.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
你無知無覺 我可以講說案件太大對不對 抽絲剝繭詳細謹慎不是耶 照調查局局長說就六年了嘛你通報他們六年了嘛 對不對 沒錯吧他們局的底報告是這樣寫的 六年啊他就說來九年啦所以這才我跟哥哥講 為什麼講台灣現在多何其荒謬啊捐鍋者諸 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6466.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6494.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
詐欺者喉捐個32元電鍋 好心捐電鍋貪污 起訴然後呢 詐欺集團有八成的人抓到是被交保3萬到100萬特助15萬交保搞得今天 院長還震怒咧院長震怒啊打擊詐欺人員士氣啊 只要罵錯人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6497.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6499.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
他罵法院來 我們來請廳長來我再重複一遍 剛才其實有問過院長罵法院罵對了嗎 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6509.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6534.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我還再跟委員報告一下這個在上個禮拜台北地院已經發了新聞稿澄清沒關係嘛 我不知道新聞稿你幫我講嘛 內容重點是什麼就罵錯了嘛 沒錯吧是由檢察官訓後交保的對嘛 檢察訓後交保跟法院沒關係不法院裁的沒錯吧 就罵錯人嘛來來來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6536.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6556.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
罵錯人怎麼辦這個院長應該是院長的意思是指太子集團的生壓的核心幹部有一位交保是交保在一個圖信的一個被告交保30萬那這部分檢方是認為是不符所以這邊有看到所以這部分我們核心幹部就要收押 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6556.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6561.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
聽長請上來 聽長請上來部長那麼盡責 我有點覺得委屈他啦我請聽長上來嘛我請聽長上來啦 謝謝部長我請聽長上來啦沒有 部長你很盡責啦 總統太帝喜歡你啦沒問題的啦是不是罵錯了 請問對不對 聽長也很無奈啊講那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6588.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6606.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
他沒罵錯 搞到我們法院還要發聲明我不要再跟你吵這件事情 我只是覺得你很盡責你討厭聽洗地兩個字 我知道但我說你很盡責 怎麼沒錯吧這不是洗地 這是回應那個委員對的我就說你討厭聽到洗地兩個字 我沒有講洗地這是一個誠信事實 這不是什麼洗地部長你不盡責 你要我這樣講嗎我想你很盡責 他誇你也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6613.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6634.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
別人為罵你洗地你翻臉我誇你都不行 奇怪了 我不懂啊你就很盡責嘛 廳長旁邊都說罵錯了你這邊盡責的幫忙辯護不是洗地啦 再強調不叫洗地啦叫做盡責辯護啦最後有一件事情我要跟部長來討論一下最後一件事有個80歲的劉老太太照顧癱瘓的兒子50年 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6643.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6656.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
還要照顧她比她自己大10歲的丈夫因為她確診 心力交瘁她悶死了她兒子那地方法院法官建請總統依赦免法來對被告特赦各界也支持特赦 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6657.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6687.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那我看我們的總統府是強調說因為這是我知道本會我們的委員會針對陳水扁特赦問題當時法務部就說尚未判決確定的案件沒有赦免法第三條特赦適用的餘地對不對當時這麼講沒錯這個特赦是要判決確定的才有特赦的所以是你要等法律程序的做完那是你的見解所以總統府說將司法程序完成後再回後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6688.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6711.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
但坦白講我也有看到不同的法律見解有人是回到赦免法第三條的條文的規定受罪行之宣告的人經特赦者免除其刑之執行其情節特殊者得以罪行之宣告為無效他沒有講確定兩個字但沒有關係我不是要在這邊跟你爭執法律意見我要講的是另外一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6714.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6739.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我的主張是有新特色就特色啦不要讓他再來回奔波法院但如果法務部還是認為說要確定那現在檢方已經不對本案上訴了嘛對不對那個檢方沒有上訴這是那個被告一方上訴可是我跟你講部長你江心比心從被告角度來講他要不要上訴他也很為難啊不是嗎今天如果他撤回上訴全案定義就符合你的要件了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6740.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6756.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
對不對 定宴以後總統就可以來行使特赦的餘地嘛可以擔心他不上訴 定宴以後他也就要去服刑啦政事就沒有轉 萬一沒有特赦就要服刑那為什麼讓他來去賭好 沒關係 我這樣講我想請教部長 能幫一個忙啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6757.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6778.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
就是按照你的 我講的我的叫廣義的法律見解你的叫狹義法律見解 我不講對錯按照你的法律見解一定要確定之後部長能不能告訴我如果確定之後 你作為我們法律的守門人能不能請我們總統對這個個案慎重考慮 不是要求啦慎重考慮行使特色啦照你說的確定之後啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6780.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6795.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你覺得他有沒有可憐 請問這部分其實跟委員報告其實這個案件在發生之初是我在當北捷檢察長的時候那時候國安案件跟這件會議認為國務院法官的案件那時候轉嫌會議那個嫌疑會議我就講說我們檢察發揮悲天憫之心所以這件我們才建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6801.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6820.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
国官专组的钱才建立法官是不是改成通常程序不要再受到国官的那个比较程序的一些的这些冗长这一段我肯定你好不好那这边委员你关心的我想这部分当然是总统固有职权那我想总统已经知道了所以总统我发新闻稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6821.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6850.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
說要程序走完他沒有答應要特赦 只是說程序結束大家都會很關心這件事我不勉強你啦 部長就是拜託啦你不用公開你作為政府法律守門人作為幕僚的話你私下給他總統建議這件事我們是覺得真的很可憐所以長照杯哥這部分的我們是一直在做這邊的一個檢視檢討在這邊部長我跟你講你贏給大家一個promise你至少會把這個民情反映總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6851.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6857.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這個時候我們會來處理謝謝你這個也謝謝委員指教謝謝好 謝謝羅委員那麼接下來我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我先請我們法務部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6884.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6902.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好 請部長好 部長好部長 今天我們主要是著重在打詐那剛才也講了現在這個民眾對詐騙深惡痛絕也是政府現在民調滿意度最低的一個項目但是我必須要講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6904.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6926.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我們為了打詐因為案件很多但是司法有沒有怠惰呢有的 我現在就來直接跟部長請教這件事情我們在整個打詐期這幾年來包含我們成立了國家打詐隊那麼努力在打詐但是有一個案子非常非常特殊 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6927.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6949.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
这个特殊是什么呢它其实是类似当年的IMBIMB一样非法吸金非法吸金这个叫做天逸集团的董事长温丰泰他以所谓的基金队长为名对外吸金而且他的吸金说你保证回本 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6950.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6975.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
而且回收率就是你的報酬率高達6%到12%這種一看就知道典型的非法襲擊的案例那我們減掉有沒有辦有的在2021年的9月當時你們也是大規模的去辦去偵辦然後裡面包含去約談去搜索 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6976.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7000.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
然後這個董事長當年是以200萬元交保然後他另外一家叫做天穎投資的負責人叫做王志摩他100萬元交保當然當時還有一些業務員有60萬交保的20萬交保的這樣一個大規模轟轟動動10億的一個金融非法吸金涉及詐騙的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7002.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7022.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
部長我請教這樣的案子通常通常應該要多久應該會有比較具體的結果不管你是繼續的約談他繼續的開庭或者起訴他或者說還他清白其實你沒有詐騙你沒有非法襲擊通常這案子應該要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7025.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7035.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個謝謝委員關心那的確這個是有吸金這個有涉及到這些不法的那這個金額也看起來也蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7035.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7052.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那這個北檢剛才委員有提到說11年9月份那時候有做一些的有處理啦有處理搜索等等的這些那現在的確是委員講這個是案件還在偵查中還在偵查中通常所以我要問部長像這種大型的案件大型案件如果他擺了四年沒有再開任何一次庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7064.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7072.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
也沒有在傳喚任何一個人沒有在任何的偵辦的動作合理不合理部長合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7073.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7102.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
这个案件的难以程度以及收整的一个个案不同据我这边的资料事实上在去年在12月也有开过庭这部分我想我要尊重检察官的一个侦查的计划我想这部分如果当事人如果说被害人这部分对被害人来讲对被害人来说他一定认为这个人是不是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7102.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7117.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
守候的什麼政商關係可以讓檢調在一次大規模的偵辦然後交保之後最後呢無消無息我們來看因為這家公司繼續在做營運來 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7119.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7141.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
他繼續在做營運而且神通廣大那麼他也跟柬埔寨的商務部也有正式的簽約然後另外他又去介入一家上市公司的經營權的紛爭這家公司也後來這個經營權紛爭也涉嫌到吸金的問題好 我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7142.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7171.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們一個重大的案件然後被害人這麼多當然人家會盯住說司法檢調在偵辦的之後好一年過去了兩年過去了三年過去了你說去年12月那也是三年之後啦一次開庭對不對那所以我想請問一下這樣子的案子那你如何讓被害人對司法有信心請問一下部長像這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7173.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7183.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
10億然後甄辦都幾百萬元交保然後就擺在那裡如果你是被害人或者你是被害人家屬你做何感想 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7184.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7204.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我想這不是案件就擺在那裡啦這個檢察官依照這個法定程序來蒐集證據那還是有持續的一個進行那這部分因為這是個案我也沒辦法去做一個干涉指導我今天在講的當然這個是一個非法吸金詐騙的個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7206.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7226.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
但是這也是通案就如同剛才在講的太子集團那是我們偵辦的很晚是美國把一些相關資料給我們這個是我們已經有在偵辦然後擺在那邊聞風不動我覺得這就是會讓外界認為司法怠惰 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7227.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7242.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對於這些連大型的非法吸金詐騙你們都可以擺4年之久所以拜託部長這樣子害被害人血本無歸啊你本來就要加強偵辦啊否則這些人說實在這些人250 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7243.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7265.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
他們現在到處在做生意有沒有出鏡呢 對不對照樣還可以去介入上市公司的經營權之爭我覺得這個我們是不是讓這些這種涉嫌詐騙涉嫌非法吸金的人對他們太好了呢所以剛才羅思強委員問這個事情就是那個院長詐騙當時就是我總諮詢問他啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7268.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7284.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我問他就是那個太子集團你講那30萬不是我問他是那個太子集團的特助那個城市的特助15萬交保然後呢交保之後臉上出現燦笑開心的不得了所以我就問院長這種畫面你給國人什麼樣的訊號 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7285.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7313.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以院長說他也不能夠接受所以像這樣的案子是大家不能接受的事情拜託部長好不好就一定該辦的就辦我說如果他沒有非法進行如果說他沒有涉嫌什麼相關的法律責任你也趕快懷人家清白是不是 也沒有你就把案子擺在那裡這個都不是我們在做這些司法案件應該有的態度另外部長請教你一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7315.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7336.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這兩天我認為這個案子非常嚴重了台積電又出現涉嫌就是可能又被竊他的機密這裡面是他一個副總高階的副總叫做羅維仁他退休之後他就跳槽英特爾因為部長知道這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7337.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7352.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個案件媒體有報 那高檢署也分案偵辦了你講的是羅維仁嗎對 這一間 就是這一間你們是主動偵辦 還是說台積電已經跟你們這一間是主動分案的主動分案 這正確我為什麼今天要質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7353.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7382.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
因為他之前呢是一個日商的東基威力集團這個也是日本的半導體國家隊友也來是涉嫌竊取台積電的這個商這個他的技術的機密那台積電呢是提告跟我們的高檢署提告然後所以現在在偵辦中那這個羅維仁按照媒體報導台積電還沒有確定說要不要提告但是我認為就應該去主動偵辦他那用什麼用什麼法去偵辦他 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7385.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7414.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這可以營業秘密法用營業秘密法會不會用國安法還有那個國安法那個應該是第三條第八條所以現在部長是確定這個羅為仁涉嫌竊取台積電的機密案我們高檢署主動分案調查主動分案調查以什麼涉嫌那個國安法國安法以及營業秘密法 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7414.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7430.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
一頁秘密法就是主動翻案調查這是正確的我覺得政府要拿出態度來因為剛剛有媒體報導說他因為是美國籍還不能用國安法辦他我說怎麼會有這樣的事情那個是任何人 國安法的那個是任何人 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7431.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7444.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對 所以這個部分為什麼我今天要質詢這個我是這樣子我就肯定了好 那時間暫停一下我請一下我們今天有經濟部經濟部是 對不起經濟部商業發展署還有銀行局局長跟內政部警政署署長好 請兩位三位最小的官員請上台 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7462.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7482.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個之前我也在這邊請教法務部就是我們太子集團這個案子事實上它是涉及各部會那當時你們在檢方在開內部檢討會議的時候有人直接點名說這個案子的罪魁禍首是誰呢是經濟部就是經濟部的商業發展署 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7485.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7506.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那是什麼呢就是針對這些空殼公司啊這些空殼公司大量的交易買豪車買豪宅但是我們渾然不覺所以當時檢方點名這件事的罪魁禍首是經濟部來那我想請問一下我們副署長您能夠接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7507.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7523.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
跟委員報告我們公司的設立登記跟變更登記都有法定的程序我們依公司法跟公司登記辦法所以這件事情你們有沒有施指針對這個公科公司又買豪車又買豪宅然後進行洗錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7524.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7552.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
公司的設立資金我們會透過會計司查而簽證所以那個設立的資金我們會有法定程序處理那我要請教一下那麼當時法務部副部長在這邊他說他們會透過行政院要讓經濟部針對空殼公司進行清查因為以這個案例來說這個案例他透過設立 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7554.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7573.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
空殼公司然後去買車去買豪車豪宅當然機管會是說銀行局說他們有通報銀行針對這些交易他們有通報針對空殼公司要不要做清查公司的營業如果有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7575.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7603.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
六個月沒有正常的營業那個雖然機關會有這個會營業的事實那我們會有法定程序會進行這個相關的副署長你今天來這個專案報告我覺得你完全沒有準備我剛才為什麼講為什麼檢方直接點名經濟部是罪魁禍首就是針對這些空殼公司沒有做任何的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7603.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7630.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以我也支持我們針對空殼公司你沒有營運你也沒有營運資本額也沒多少那開個空殼公司在這邊就是大肆的去買各項的財產當然你說這邊他是買豪車豪宅這個還能夠在銀行裡面去追蹤他如果去買什麼虛擬貨幣買吳京明的債券吳京明債券他也有資金的流動你根本連追都不能追所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7633.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7643.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
针对我们这些空壳公司你们真的应该做一些清查你可以定嘛你可以定一个标准什么样的标准之上你要做清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7644.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7663.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
这边所谓空壳公司跟刚刚那个无营业其实两个概念是不同所以无营业就是说他六个月没有经营的情况那这种情况我们有法定程序就是透过这个命令解散跟撤销你讲半天我跟你讲那至于说在正常营业当中因为他在税务 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7664.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7682.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
呃的程序也都有申報營業稅有這個正常的那請問這家空殼公司太子集團有什麼正常營業嗎所以所謂的空殼公司他有正常營業嗎跟無營業公司兩個是不同的概念你在講半天我就說你完全沒有準備而來你們經營部顯然這件事情不干你們的事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7683.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7686.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好像一副不干你們的事 你知道這個世界變成什麼樣嗎我們變成那種海外的那種洗錢天堂了 你知道嗎台灣有避稅天堂 海外有洗錢天堂 台灣現在變成洗錢天堂設立一家空額公司 然後在這邊把這些錢拿來去買車買豪宅我們渾然不覺 然後發生事情的時候你在這邊跟我爭議什麼有沒有營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7708.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7711.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
你們到底有沒有進入狀況公司在設立的過程當中會有開一個籌備戶頭那設立完以後他會轉為這個時間關係我真的拜託法務部把這些所有相關的內政我想那個署長不會那麼白目啦真的署長人家還有點名的是內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7732.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7758.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
就是呢這個層次已經來十年來已經來很多次還用多國護照一直來一直來一直來所以也點名了也點名了就是說這個為什麼內政部這當然不是只有我們還包含海關為什麼都渾然不覺所以在這個部分我們有沒有辦法去做一些做一些防堵我就以太子集團這個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7760.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7780.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
請檢調單位針對其他各部會它應該有漏洞要把它防堵出來我今天雖然找金融局但是我就現在來看你們確實有通報所以我覺得金融局的部分銀行的部分目前是OK的它有在守門但是他說檢調也沒有什麼他說通報以後檢調你們也沒有在積極的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7785.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7792.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以你們要把太子集團這個案例我們所有相關的有這些漏洞要捕破網 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7794.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7816.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這個案子很丟臉啊很丟臉我現在是時間關係我沒有把調查局長叫上來我那時候說四月份人家聯合國已經有報告說台灣涉及東南亞的洗錢有沒有結果你們調查局長講什麼說這個好像有言過其實啊就不是這樣子啊不是這樣子今天跑出來一個太子集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7817.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7838.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我意思說我們要洗刷這種國際洗錢中心洗錢天堂的惡名可以不可以 可以可以 署長我覺得他署長比較進入狀況而且你覺得這個是你的職責你經濟部真的回去好好這個空殼公司是你們經濟部的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7840.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7864.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
部長最後針對太子集團所有相關部會我覺得你們也不要當爛好人也不要護短你們檢調有什麼疏失你們就直接提出來其他單位有什麼疏失你們就要提出來這個案子用太子集團的案子來做檢討不要明年人家什麼聯合國報告再出來說我們幫東南亞去洗錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7866.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7894.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
你知道現在全世界都在跟柬埔寨宣戰啊全世界啊 美國都說我要派員到柬埔寨去查啊然後李在明說什麼李在明說你們今天敢動我韓國人我讓你們家破人亡人家總統有這種這種魄力耶說你柬埔寨再敢動我韓國人我就讓你們家破人亡我們在那邊我們就在機場舉牌子說大家不要去柬埔寨 小心 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7895.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7904.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
这种破例完全不一样啊所以我觉得要宣战这种宣战是要跟国际的诈骗集团宣战 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7905.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7926.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好不好 惡名昭彰還對他們有什麼客氣的啦不會啦 謝謝委員的指教我想我們打架國會都是對而宣戰那委員剛才關心的就是說我們檢調再辦案把一些我們為什麼會有這樣的情形的發生我們會看檢討把它補漏這部分我們會回饋給各個行政機關各個權管單位來做一個不用當讓好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7926.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7934.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
而且也不能互擋也不能互擋誰沒有進入狀況誰沒有在防堵就讓他們要負起責任這部分我們有收集就是會來防堵這個經濟測驚作為這部分我們有在做OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7945.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7969.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好 謝謝因為待會很快到11點我想說中間要休息一下那麼是不是可以徵詢吳思瑤委員的這個同意我們在林慶祺委員質詢完之後我們休息一個5分鐘因為不過我想因為今天真的是大家醒了我知道因為如果說等到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7979.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7989.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為今天的時間是真的就是延的比較久了那沒關係我想要不然就我們待會就還是林倩琦委員執行完之後不好意思就麻煩就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7997.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8009.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 那這樣的話那就不好意思王一川委員那就麻煩就是我們待會再吳世堯委員執行完之後好 我們再休息一下好好的 OK 好好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8027.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8045.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
本席先導一下言但是很快的我們可能要先請那個金管會做一下準備好那我們今天其實在這邊是針對太子集團整個的跨國的犯罪引發我們各界的跨欄但是今天的詢答剛才本席聽到很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8046.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8063.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個數字還有一些報告其實民意代表在這邊就是反映民眾的觀點我們期待行政單位因為你們掌握公權力也有相關的專業你們再回應可以多一些對民意的一個同理所以剛才我們講到名次或報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8063.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8076.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
但是重点是现在许多民众有苦说不出然后被坑杀了然后无语问苍天结果看到那么大的案子呢目前这个阶段的一个处理可能让大家有一些疑虑但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8078.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8099.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這些案子卻也引發了很多老民的一個政策所以這個本席今天其實要在這邊為一些民眾來做請命所以接下來我們就請那個應該是金管會 對不起金融 對 金管會那我們銀行局的局長有在嗎童局長好 請局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8105.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8130.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好謝謝同學好謝謝本席最近我想您這邊應該也都有收到一些訊息最近因為普發一萬那麼也有一個方式就是讓民眾來利用銀行的帳戶來取領取但是呢又引發了一個越演越累的銀行帳戶無預警會那個凍結那許多民眾因此就產生了一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8133.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8153.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個問題請你們多加注意因為其實很多民眾其實沒有設詐但是因為銀行導入了AI的風險控制模型過於敏感結果被列為預防性凍結的對象結果導致不能提款不能轉帳然後生活會因此而完全停擺結果銀行又常常把這樣的風險的責任丟給民眾那把負擔也丟給民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8158.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8184.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這樣子的制度是不是走偏也應該開始做一些處理跟調整本席這邊舉幾個例子有個行業叫外送員那麼他常常因為多筆的這個小額的收入結果竟然遭凍結結果兩週不能提款結果為了付房租差點去借高利貸你們雖然聽起來很離譜可是小市民的生活就是這樣很多時候那個時間是不容一點點差那個毫秒的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8186.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8193.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
另外還有一些民眾跟朋友聚餐在分帳然後社團小額的匯款總額不到五萬塊結果也被當成疑似人頭帳戶有一些長者領取敬老金而開戶因為半年前沒有動用存款結果又被郵局來凍結有一些家屬繼承了五百萬帳戶遭凍結了八個月結果又導致醫藥費 商場費也領不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8215.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8232.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那麼銀行的櫃台也常常出現民眾會錢給小孩的學費結果因此也會顯示異常那這樣子的金融體系為了防幣結果搞了半天民眾便利成為這樣子的一個成本這樣子是不是有點矯枉過正 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8233.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8248.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以目前銀行導入的一些AI模型將快進快出或者是多比的小額視為高風險但是有一些職業像外送員網拍或短租的一些弱勢族群的典型的金流就導致 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8249.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8271.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
人命生活的一個困難所以有一些警戒人士其實也警告那個銀行如果管太嚴那這一些弱勢族群就被迫要去跟地下金融機構來借錢反而助長了高利貸的一個的事業那也有一些洗錢的疑慮因此本席在這邊要談的是那麼銀行房價是不是過度嚴苛 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8272.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8287.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
結果產生了一種新的風險本席要請教你們是不是有盤點金管會是不是有盤點各家銀行目前導入AI風險的模型你們有沒有來要求銀行來調整一下預防性凍結的一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8288.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8312.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
然後將賬戶限制處分的範圍更聚焦在真正可能的詐騙犯而不是日常金融往來的民眾目前每家銀行的標準差異也很大民眾沒有辦法知道金管委員你們是認為這樣合理嗎第二個部分是民眾如果要解鎖賬戶因為已經造成大家生活的麻煩結果銀行端還要求提供金流的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8313.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8319.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那從生活費到聚餐到社團的贊助都要舉證那麼經管會你們是不是認為這樣舉證其實對民眾來講有過度負擔變成銀行將打詐的責任轉嫁給民眾所以第三個是那目前相關銀行凍結了民眾的這個帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8334.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8360.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
救濟的機制是怎麼樣呢最後一個是你們是不是要要求銀行來重新評估AI模型對於弱勢族群的歧視目前的交易模式推斷打擊其實有點過廣我們剛才講到的外送員長者小商家只是金融體系的一般使用者他們不是詐團成員也相對弱勢打詐是必要但是打錯對象就會變成傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8361.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8376.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
助長其他類型的犯罪目前銀行的AI不是智慧偵測看起來像是全面掃射結果防詐變成了防民風險控管結果變成了老民那您的看法謝謝委員關心這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8377.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8397.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那這個案件最主要的背景是因為銀行的警示帳戶一直不斷的飆升從111年開始每一個月大概平均增加的警示帳戶大概有2000到3000戶所以從今年開始我們要有加強要求銀行必須要去正視這個問題那也提出了相關的一個指導方式那當然部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8397.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8418.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以你們有針對剛才本席的那個部分有啟動一些機制嗎還是這是因為幾年來一直有這樣的情況所以你們要求他們要針對這些帳戶去做一些警示而產生了這些老民的狀況呢更委員報告最主要是因為警示帳戶飆升的這個議題所以我們在今年有要求金融機構必須要去強化它的風險控管 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8419.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8446.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那因為有少部分的銀行它本身的警示賬戶數是比較高所以它為了要趕快降低它的這個警示賬戶數所以結果看起來是你們要求一些績效結果他們就趕快為了要符合這個績效結果搞得很老民應該不是說績效我們最主要是要強化銀行在偵測警示賬戶這邊的一個能力風險偵測的能力所以有少部分的銀行所以導致這樣子的狀況你們是不是可以趕快做個 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8448.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8467.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個處理 尤其是最近普發現金這個問題又爆出來嘛 對不對就很大量的爆出來是 各位有報告就是說我們先前有了解有少數的銀行他的確導入AI他把相關的風景的參數就是預警的參數他設的比較嚴 比較敏感所以導致一些民眾的部分他就被設為預控 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8470.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8489.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好的 那謝謝時間關係我這邊趕快做一個建議然後你們也趕快提出一些相關報告好不好因為現在正在發生很多被普發現金一萬塊的目前卡住了然後這個卡住不是只有卡住那一萬塊會卡住整個戶頭所以是不是這個部分能夠趕快了解做個處理第二個部分你們有沒有做一個全面的檢討你們為了解決那個警示帳戶的問題結果現在產生這個新的問題而且目前很大量然後常常衝擊的都是比較弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8495.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8523.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
相對弱勢的族群所以你們是不是可以在一個月內提出相關的檢討給本席我們會有書面報告給委員但是我先跟委員報告一萬塊的部分我們已經通令銀行清查沒有去涉到這一萬塊所以一定要就是如果有今天民眾因為他是我們都看到了相關報導而且相關的反應所以這個部分如果有就麻煩你們即刻處理那不要因為這樣一個項目而導致全面的被凍結 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8524.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8547.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好不好 這個我們有清查過謝謝 謝謝 本席因為時間的關係就是個案請你們趕快處理然後相關的全面性的你們為了因應的那個警示帳戶的問題而導致的其他問題也請你們做一個整體的檢討 好不好我們已經有召開會議 銀行都有採取相關的措施好 謝謝那接下來本席 請速發部 調查局 警政署 打詐指揮中心指揮官的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8552.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8580.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
接下來本席要談的是AI生成的詐騙廣告現在非常的泛亂以假亂真的取材已經成為新型的國安問題我想各位應該都同意吧目前各單位經常拿出相關的統計數據看起來好像是做得OK但事實上民眾感受不到就如同剛才本席所講的今天我們會站在這邊質詢是民意代表的職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8582.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8599.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
雖然你們可以拿一些數據來做佐證但是最重要的是民眾個案的切身感受其實是最大的一個影響所以根據165的儀表版的統計10月份平均每天要受理441件的詐騙案財損在大概接近2億 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8603.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8617.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是詐騙手法這其實本席在之前就知道了但是現在非常嚴重詐騙的手法已經全面跟AI技術結合那刑事局這邊也公佈四大類的假名人詐騙手法包括假名人證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8619.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8647.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
假名人賣保險品假名人投資群組那本席認為的很重要的而且很嚴重的是AI生成的偽造名人短影音那我在這邊提醒Glock的整個生成式的影片還有AI語音模型的發展已經讓詐騙廣告的擬真其實讓民眾是沒有辦法辨別的這個情況不是只有很像本人而是事實上真的像本人 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8648.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8673.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
所以本席其實有看過黃國昌委員館長等名人的AI身為訪談內容被作為推廣加密貨幣的平台去年陳建仁院長在受質詢的時候本席也看到有委員做的AI擬真他也幾乎都被騙過了這個就在你我身邊都可能發生我們自己都有可能碰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8675.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8702.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以最近這些東西都還在Thread或者是網友截取會做一些流傳看起來也是本人聲音也是本人沒有辦法查證一下機率我們會誤信的機率非常的高所以連作家吳淡如都表示他應該是被速發目前列為全台最容易被仿冒的名人之一我想對他來講也是不勝其老所以本席要請教各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8703.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8727.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
各部會 請問對於AI偽造名人的廣告第一個部分 速發部目前你們的措施是如何目前在平台的一個強制下的機制運作的一個狀況跟跨國族群的企業合作的狀況是不是有比較暢通還有現在詐騙的短音影音都放在Facebook我們常用然後Instagram還有Straight YouTube x Twitter |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8728.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8755.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
TikTok那我們是不是已經跟Meta或者是Google還有TikTok這些海外的企業簽訂對偽造名人影音內容的一個合作協定蘇發布是 謝謝委員的質詢有關於這個就是說名人偽造的這個部分其實事實上我們在我們列館的這個四大業者跟七大平台裡面我們大概都已經有就是做好這樣子的一個聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8756.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8772.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那並且呢就是針對這個剛剛提到這個微影音的這樣子一個部分因為如果是用AI生成的這個依照照圍條例的相關的規定其實事實上是必須要做揭露的那當然其實剛剛委員有提到說有很多他可能其實他也不大清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8772.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8786.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那可以透過我們的網站通報查詢網可以去做一個通報我們一旦確認以後我們就會立刻去進行下降這個問題其實真的還蠻嚴重你就要一些長者要經過這些步驟其實也真的是還有一段距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8790.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8804.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
另外我想請教一下調查局還有警政署目前對於假名人的AI詐騙有沒有專案的一個偵辦它其實是一種混合型的新型態你們有沒有針對這個部分成立相關的專案小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8805.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8832.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
有 我們刑事局有成立專案小組對這個部分我會主動去做搜尋那其實有人剛剛講的很有道理就是說這個都是在詐欺之前的那個源頭在廣告平台裡面的這個狀況嘛所以這個應該是所有詐騙裡面是最重要的那每一個最新型的這一些的相關的這個詐騙的AI生成的這個模式我們第一時間大概就掌握那會去做搜尋搜尋完之後會做下架停止解析 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8832.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8852.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那這些廣告平台如果沒有依照規定來做我們還是會移給書畫部來做採訪那其實最重要還是在這個整個的一個網路廣告平台的這個自主的這個管理他們這個部分是最重要的每次碰到這種問題那各部會就說就是警政署負責的那很多東西就都你們負責的你們在第一線其實很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8853.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8873.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們其實打炸是整個團隊我們當然是會主動有專門小組會再去做所以剛剛委員所提的這裡面的證書健保假名人的這些廣告或是這些生成的這些影片的模式感覺他們生成的速度都趕不上你們去查核然後下架的速度怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8874.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8899.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們當然就是說就是像這些有一些都是跨境的投放的這個狀況那當然最重要就是網路廣告平台的這些的業者他們要去做這些本身的自製跟集合那有一些是今天下載完之後明天再變成一個不同的我想現在已經是一個還蠻無法自製跟自律的一個所以你可以看到就像比如講像我可以公開講那個Meta的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8900.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8926.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
或者是這些FB的這些狀況是最嚴重的其實現在速度那麼快我們如果還停留在這個平台要自治然後民眾自己要小聽心那這個已經有詐謗條例可以去做規範跟處罰對我們來講都是法然後都是條例但對民眾來講就是生活我們怎麼樣過得簡單一點在我們當有這麼多技術這麼多科技這麼多平台協助的情況下還有這麼多部會的參與結果大家生活得越來越辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8927.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8945.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們知道警政署是很辛苦的各部會跟這些主題其實跟大家都有關不管是前段 中段 後段我想在你們的經驗裡面應該都有很多處理的經驗在這個經驗裡面我認為應該有更積極的一些作為我們知道警政署很辛苦本席問的很多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8946.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8970.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
到最後要嘛衛福部負責要嘛警政署負責那不好意思法務部相關的你們應該有一些經驗所以在跨平台處理的時候我覺得應該要整體連通然後速度跑得比犯罪快一點這樣我們就不會一直在後面追趕好 謝謝警政署啦我最後講一下就是這個基本上就是司法院跟法務部謝謝 沒有相關的就請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8971.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8988.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那我接下來談的是詐騙案的這個爆量然後跟第一線人員的這個問題那很快那麻煩各位請回那司法院法務部我們請相關的代表這邊還是來提一下本席關心很久了每一次都提就是司法院第一線人員的處境 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8989.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9012.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們也知道大家現在面臨最多的就是詐騙案整個司法體系已經超載了不僅是承辦人員的能力不足制度面本身也很難去因應這樣結構性的問題本席也提出一些建議你們可不可以在程序上做一些調整比如說減輕司法人員的負擔有沒有可能 例如 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9012.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9027.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
擴大認罪協商制度的適用範圍可以減少除外的範圍擴大可協商的範圍這個部分是不是就可以制度性的或結構性的減輕第一線人員的一些負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9029.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9050.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
因為詐騙案每年都超過數十數萬 十數萬件對司法的能量其實蠻耗費的所以目前整體的刑案量就是詐騙的刑案量非常大第一線檢察官 書記官 法官都過勞但是我們目前沒有辦法直接處理這些很快的處理這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9051.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9080.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
所以有沒有可能本席這邊建議啦對於放寬認罪協商的一個程序可以用程序改革來減輕司法的一個負擔然後來減輕第一線人員我們知道我們常常在增聘人員但是是不是可以研議看看讓這個證據明確而且犯罪樣態非常清楚的犯罪可以更彈性來運用本席上面所講的一些程序檢疫處理的這個方法呢你們是不是可以研議呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9083.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9098.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
現在委員關心這個議題有關於司法人員的負擔部分我們非常的沉重本席每一次都會提這個今天就提出這樣一個可能的方式在法制上我們就相關詐欺案件的部分我們就擴大所謂的獨任審判的範圍把原先需要合議的案件把它減少讓獨任的審判案件把它擴大到所有的詐欺案件都可以獨任審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9108.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9129.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那這部分我們也經過法務部這邊也有同意那邊我們新的那個詐毀條例已經有做類似的修正那把人解放出來把何義廷原先綁三個法官來審理之後變成獨任法官就要審理至於協商的部分我們也有在注意到這個是原先他有做一個除外規定就是死刑無期徒刑三年以上有期徒刑把他除外我們希望人 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9130.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9136.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
底線門檻的部分把它變成最新本席改成五年以上的話可以擴大協商的範圍這是時間關係啦你們是把相關報告送到本席的辦公室那本席也是要檢視一下我們對整個國際的趨勢在你們這些方法上有沒有符合一個國際這個比較相對彈性而且對於人權也是有一些關注跟保護的一個方向好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9161.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9175.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
謝謝林委員好那接下來請吳思耀委員好謝謝主席有請司法院廳長李廳長然後鄭部長請李廳長鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9185.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9214.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
大家辛苦了今天专报的主题其实一个是大家关心太子集团的这个犯案那当然另外一个主题是在讲是不是要访新加坡来在台湾也推动边行那我先从边行这个部分刚刚几位委员的垂询比较少我想听听司法院跟法务部的意见有一句话说乱世用重点下一句是什么两位记得吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9218.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9224.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
亂世用重點攻心才是上策下一頁也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9225.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9252.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
如果在乱世一再的用言行峻法这种方式其实我们更要去思考公心才是上策就是说如何去预防每一种犯罪形态它背后的社会的现况这些犯罪者犯罪之使他的心态是什么我们要有效的去预防也就是前端防范犯罪的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9253.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9267.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以說當我看到有立法委員在國會殿堂要倡議說新加坡現在要把詐騙也納入邊形的範圍我認為我們值得好好在人權的面向在國會殿堂討論這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9269.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9295.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
有沒有鞭刑跟治安好不好之間是等號嗎現在新加坡的鞭刑現在是要擴大把詐欺詐騙案也放進去他們上路已久的鞭刑制度有非常多面向部長跟廳長應當知道不管是殺人搶劫性侵犯毒非法的槍砲彈藥破壞連破壞公務都有如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9296.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9312.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
因為有了嚴刑峻法因為有了酷刑因為用了鞭刑就可以讓治安變好如果是這麼簡化的話那我們來看看國際的評比全球安全指數的報告台灣是第4名 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9313.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9339.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
而新加坡剛剛已經用了編刑用了這麼久的國家他在所有的評比項目綜合第十名還落後於台灣所以從數字來解讀有沒有編刑就能夠來印證治安的好與壞或者是有了編刑詐騙案件就會有效的嚇阻本席是一個很大的問號 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9341.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9348.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
下一頁所以我要問問兩位你們同意邊形在台灣要研議上路嗎廳長委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9353.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9372.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們可能要回溯去探討刑罰的目的是什麼刑罰是在身體刑的部分在我國比較討論比較採負面的看法可能有所謂的報仇性的一個性質我們是用矯正型的概念來取代這種硬抱型的思維嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9374.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9385.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
而且在人權的面向上呢他是不是違反了國際兩公約也違反了進行酷刑公約嘛 對不對就是司法院立場非常清楚我們絕對要審慎那部長呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9390.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9410.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
的確我們也徵詢過學者專家的意見 廣大社會意見當然政壇兩說都有但是的確這個編寫在世界上是逐漸不被因為這個是英國的殖民時期留下來的或者是有些國家可能基於宗教的理由他們還存在因為英國都已經老早就廢除掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9412.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9433.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們認為說當然這個有一些的聲音但是我們也是認為這個可能有違反酷刑跟公正公約的疑慮另外事實上怎麼去執行那部分也非常的一個很多的執行安全上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9435.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9451.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
另外新加坡是不是說那個邊型要多用譬如說據我們所了解他是50歲以下的男性才能用而且還要身體檢查有辦法如果你打了他有很多執行的門檻跟限制法律的要件這個都要從廠記憶 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9455.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9477.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
謝謝兩位的回答 我相對比較安心也就是說我知道社會對於詐騙案件大家都痛心疾首 深痛誤覺 包括本席我們在司法法治委員會這麼多的專案報告恐怕詐騙案類是我們所有專案報告的第一名代表所有不分黨派的立委都關心如何有效的來防範詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9478.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9499.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
但是如果迷信亂世用重點就是有效而去選擇了亂世用亂點我認為像邊行這種違反國際的人權公約讓台灣可能因此而人權走回頭路我們絕對要審慎的研議部長你要補充嗎你好像有話想要再說 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9499.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9517.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
的確這個詐欺就是全民公敵是民怨之所在這個我們都很也造成我們司法人員包括執法人員最大的暗戀最大的暗戀那這部分我想我們最近我們在11月13號也修法了加重出來回應民意的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9517.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9523.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
的確像我們高博的詐欺這部分我們也到7年以上對 加重刑責地板的加重的3年以上7年以下那個已經下降調到100萬只要詐騙的金額到100萬的門檻這邊就會處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9533.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9540.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
另外我們在對也規範了禁奢的條款禁奢的條款然後擴大對潛在假期被害人的保護還有要獲得減免一定要把調和解的金額在六個月以下達成和解要把錢要給戶外面才能夠減免或者這部分我們再假釋的這部分我們的門檻又再提高那我們對這部分我們就具體求行因為這些兆團是非常可惡所以絕對不能夠輕判 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9562.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9587.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以我們也是要求檢察官一定要求重刑好 謝謝部長我給您非常充分的時間說明也就是從您的回答告訴我們政府對於詐騙案件從前端的預防到後端的重懲我們都想方設法在執行面的武器強化或是在法治面的健全是我們現在進行式而不是非常單一的從一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9589.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9604.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
最酷刑的邊形來作為一個上策的解方我想我們的立場是一樣所以我在這裡講我的立場針對邊形在台灣能不能上路應不應該上路這件事情我非常的保留我反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9605.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9622.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我們台灣不能走人權的回頭路我們不能夠違反聯合國的兩公約甚至不能去違反禁止酷刑的公約以及剛剛部長所提到的在香港新加坡它的執行是針對50歲以下的男性有非常多的要件要達到所以說編刑的執行的標準本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9623.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9645.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
就很難一致這也是要去審酌以及到目前為止並沒有實證來證明說邊形能夠有效嚇阻犯罪就如同我剛剛前一頁的PTT告訴我們就是如果新加坡邊形是萬用的話他的治安可能排比會比台灣更好不是嗎下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9647.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9666.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那我也要提醒邊行在台灣過去不論誰執政在馬英九執政的時候有民進黨的立委提案性侵要邊行立法院沒通過2017年小英總統執政的時候也有公民網路的提案酒駕要邊行政策上我們也沒有採納而現在2025年有立委的倡議我認為社會要擴大討論好 我想我們在場大家的立場我們要非常的明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9677.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9691.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
下一頁 詐騙打詐尚未成功政府仍需努力但是人權不能回頭下一個那今天剛剛我們講到詐騙是全球公敵跨國互助就顯得非常的重要下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9694.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9709.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這個聯合國的報告也今天有非常多的委員再次引用太子集團這個案子就是符合聯合國這一個報告的主要的點出來的方向也就是跨國組織犯罪生態系的轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9710.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9724.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
確實如此詐騙集團高度整合化企業化的運作太子集團就是這樣以及犯罪據點轉向無政府管控或非國家武裝團體控制的地區好柬埔寨也如同這個報告所 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9726.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9742.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
爬梳的還有詐騙金額怕死人所以說太子集團的犯案確實符合了聯合國的這一個報告的事情但是讓我們看到的是既然詐騙是全球公敵跨國的司法互助就是必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9743.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9757.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以這個案子從美國向台灣提出示警我們加速來偵辦這不就是跨國的司法互助嗎我不曉得很多委員都罵說因為我們怎麼可以讓這個案子是美國來告訴我們我們才開始辦我認為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9761.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9781.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
是很有問題的邏輯本來全球都在承擔這種跨國性組織性高度整合化的犯罪集團全球互相通報互相協助本來就再自然也不過了嘛部長我們有很多案子協助其他國家偵辦不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9781.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9806.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這個是就是國際合作因為現在跨境的一個犯罪包括毒品 詐欺 洗錢這都是已經跨境的一個國際的一個犯罪所以必須要國際合作互相交換情資才有辦法以防更新所以我認為大家不要把因為美國示警了一起跟台灣來協助偵辦然後把它講成好像我們的政府失靈了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9808.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9831.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
國際互助本來就是必須而台灣也要堅定的強大的扮演好這種國際司法互助的角色我們也能夠幫助其他國家一起來偵破這種全球性的詐騙的犯罪我覺得這樣的評斷跟觀點才是正確而不是今天一直在這裡為難你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9834.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9849.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那我也要說來下一頁我直接講到來下一頁講到那個好這裡因為我們給了打炸非常多的新的武器透過修法202320242025我們剛剛您講的我們還有新的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9850.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9872.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
到底我們的打炸是真的都沒有進展嗎這個是165的打炸的儀表板也是在我們的這幾年的努力之下上路的我們相信透明公開我們相信唯有全民一起來監督一起來關注我們政府勇敢的接受社會的檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9874.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9884.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
如果以這個儀表板上的公告的資訊我們每月詐騙案的受理數是減少36%它的源頭是有效的減少的以及詐騙的財損數從138億下降到60億減少56%我承認這個數字還是很怕人我們還是要防範但是我要為我們所有的執法人員打氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9903.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9927.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
當立法院給了武器我們所有的部門投入而且社會有共識一起來打詐而且全球一起來防詐的時候有成績有成效我們永遠不滿意但是我也要替你們講公道話而不是一再打擊我們政府同仁的士氣最後一個我提醒一個新的案例來 下一個是發生在我自己身上前一夜 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9928.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9942.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
就是說廣告實名制上路之後詐騙集團的手法改變了從過去的假投資廣告最大宗現在變成是網路購物最大宗而且成長了222%我自己是受害者下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9943.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9962.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我就在上禮拜三在這裡質詢的時候我的服務處助理打給我這個四妖姐姐你是不是有在哪裡買了什麼有購其實我已經N次收到這種包裹因為我自己是不會網購的所以我都告訴我助理我沒有我助理說那我知道那這個就是詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9964.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9987.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以說非常多的幽靈包裹一案可以兩詐一個我查到他的公司資訊全部造假而我掃進去他的公司資訊我就可以查到這是一個不折不扣的一頁式的網站當你去查詢驗證這個詐騙包裹的時候他同時如果你去搜尋了進入他的頁面他又可以設下陷阱去盜取你的個資 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9988.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10007.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
所以这一类的幽灵包裹好下一页我今天没有时间了已经占超过时间了我还是要提醒审计部也写出报告我们的跨部会今天那个马指挥官在这里跨部会的合作从经济部到交通部对于物流业者超商配送 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10008.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10029.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
然後到我們的內政部的這個偵辦現在是失靈的幽靈包裹這一類到現在是沒有辦法有效的去管控的而現在它已經成為新型的網路詐騙的最大宗已經超越了投資廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10029.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10057.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以我們找到對的方法去打擊詐騙當我們讓網路實名制上路之後可以讓這些假投資廣告沒有那麼辦法方便的橫行那現在已經變成新型的這種網路購物的詐騙因為時間到了我今天拋出來下一次我相信還有非常多次的機會就教於各位是不是可以把跨部會的協防就幽靈包裹網路購物的詐騙我明明沒有買 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10058.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10070.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他貨到付款要騙消費者的錢這個東西我們來協防起來我下次再就教育你們好不好好謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了那我們中間休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10087.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10099.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10115.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10137.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10143.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10146.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10168.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10195.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10202.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10213.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10413.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10428.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 我們繼續開會接下來請翁曉琳轉委首先先有請鄭部長鄭部長還有李廳長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10434.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10453.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
市部長好 我想剛剛其實很多委員都已經有在談到就是卓榮泰院長在上個星期的總諮詢過程當中基本上就罵錯人了對於太子集團裡面的其中的一名嫌犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10456.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10483.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
15万巨宝轻放的事情那么事实上这个应该是属于检察官所做的巨宝裁定而不是法院所以看起来就是卓荣泰院长很明显有两种情况第一个就是他不想承认这是检察官自己做的所以就故意甩锅给法院另外一种情形就有可能就是对于这个本案根本还搞不清楚状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10484.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10507.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
也許他只是看了新聞然後也沒有想看所以就自己就妄作判斷然後以為說這可能是法院侵犯那實際上是檢察官所做的這個據保裁定那當然還有另外一種可能性就是卓榮泰院長根本就學法不經將檢察官的據保處分誤認為說是法官所做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10509.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10527.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
由此可見其實卓榮透議院長他應該要把更多的心思放在國人更為關心的打仗議題上面尤其是現在發生了這種國際這麼重要的一個詐騙集團然後竟然他所在地是在台灣當然他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10528.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10548.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所在地上剛剛有講是在柬埔寨可是他這個本身的裡面的很多這個成員都是在台灣然後而且在和平大院然後甚至這個太子集團辦公室還在101那麼這個部分的話真的就從上到下都應該要好好的去追追去這個偵辦這個案件不應該再輕放好那麼當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10556.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10561.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
卓榮泰院長雖然他誤會了可是我認為說法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10563.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10591.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
在這個案子裡面其實也是以30萬元交保相對於檢方的15萬也不過就是50部校百部所以事實上就是不管是檢察官和法官在這樣的案子當中那麼對於涉嫌詐欺案子的相關的犯罪嫌疑人他的確是有輕放的這樣的一個問題那麼我們看到其實法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10592.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10602.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
你們自己有在講說對於台北地檢署這個生鴨圖女另外就是台北地方法院有裁定30萬元交保然後你們說你們對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10604.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10628.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
決定交保金額的時候會考量到犯罪嫌疑人或是被告所涉嫌犯的罪名犯罪情節輕重現有的證據及資歷等等因素以確保未來考慮到他的會不會確實到場以及考量保釋金額能否對於犯罪嫌疑人或被告產生相當的心理壓力以防止其棄保潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10629.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10653.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以也就是说法官在做相关的交保裁定的时候他会有种种的考虑的因素可是这个部分就让我们感到好奇那么为什么像是对于伪造文书这种很轻的罪两年以下的罪可是他的交保金可以到达上千万 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10654.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10676.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那麼像太子集團這種詐騙案它可能涉及非常高的這個金額但是法院也只有30萬就做交保裁定所以由此可見就是其實整個的法院的體系未來在法官的這個良心的或是拒保交保裁定的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10677.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10698.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
應該刑事廳這裡要多跟法官們再多開一些協調聯席會議座談會那麼事實上真的法院的所做的判決或做的裁定它都會影響到國人對於司法的信賴本席認為說這個部分是很重要的好 那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10700.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10714.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是不是接下來的話我先好兩位先請回因為我想這個部分的話就不請兩位回答了好那接下來我想請的是打乍指揮中心指揮官馬指揮官委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10722.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10742.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好我想請問這個指揮官您擔任這個職務有多久了您是內政部次長然後接任打炸中心指揮官您擔任這個指揮官目前的這個從去年8月到現在從去年8月到現在那請問打炸指揮中心是平均多久開一次會 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10742.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10759.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們每個星期都開會每個星期都開會而且不只一次會好 那麼所以對於太子集團的這個事情你們之前在打炸中心的會議上面曾經有討論過嗎包委 因為指揮中心我們是協調單位是幕僚單位所以我們要情資才能夠進行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10759.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10773.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以你們一直都沒有情資這個情資部分我們也是在媒體上看到我們有進行討論然後也有跟相關的各部會去了解它的進度不過因為這個牽涉到國際的情資合作所以它不會到我們幕僚單位來 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10774.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10791.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以那打炸指揮中心看起來因為他這個層級很高可是你們卻一無所知那包含剛剛講的不管是金管會或是經濟部等等他們其實在過去都有多次的通報像這種有可疑的這個犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10792.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10809.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
集團的情資竟然打詐中心不知道這些事情我們不是偵查單位我們也不是司法警察單位我們是協調機關所以我們的工作是對可是你們總要知道一些事情一些案子那麼你們才有可能去協調我們是看趨勢不是看個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10811.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10832.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以你們打詐中興每週的開會只是看趨勢我們看趨勢然後協調各部會去進行整個包括我們在165的這個儀表板上的趨勢還有就是說我們從包括媒體上面會看到很多新型態的可能的這個未來的犯罪型態所以你們只是新聞分享打詐這個中興每個禮拜開的會就是看打這個什麼打詐儀表板 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10839.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10858.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
他的趨勢 到底每個月他的收借案件還有進來各部會的資訊到我們手上但是還是跟委員強調 太子集團的部分他是國際情資交換的問題他不是我們幕僚機關可以處理的我們的職責不一樣 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10864.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10883.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
局長在你今天的報告裡面你有講嗎你們在108年的時候你們就陸陸續續收到銀行申報的相關金融資料然後110年的時候也開始展開調查等等那這些情資你們都沒有在打詐中心的會議上面有提報過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10886.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10913.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那時候有沒有打炸中心我不清楚但是我們就是把它分析完以後我們會分送並且就是說這些金融情報銀行申報進來的其實都是單筆的交易對 所以因為銀行在金融剛剛是金管處吧剛剛是經濟部的銀行局其實有講了他們過去有多次60幾次通報我現在只好奇那到底這個打炸指揮中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10915.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10929.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
扮演什麼角色就是對於這樣的事情我們認為黨大指揮中心還是指揮官他在指揮我們所有的各部會要針對重要的這個案子要進行去偵辦去調查結果看起來指揮官並不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10931.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10958.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
到底各部會收了什麼樣的情節我想指揮官應該不會知道個案剛剛指揮官已經有說明了我們還是強調一次指揮中心我們並不針對個案來處理我們是系統性的處理所以像剛剛委員提到的我們不要講說這是個案而是當你發現就是有多比的這種金融通報的事件的時候這個基本上就要進去這個金融通報事件不會到指揮中心來因為他還是會在金管會的層級去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10960.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10969.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那到指揮中心的我們看到的是趨勢性的內容所以個案的部分也還有所謂洗錢防治辦公室我們現在來講就是本席現在就是因為對於打炸指揮中心他到底他的角色定位以及他能發揮什麼樣的功能本席感到質疑我也特別把你們的指揮中心的設置要點有找出來那你事實上你指揮中心的要點你浪不浪浪寫了那麼多可是看起來現在從指揮官剛剛的口裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10989.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11001.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們知道不外乎就是收集輿情然後看看打詐疑表白那對於整體的趨勢到底有沒有哪些重要的案子應該要偵辦你們也不會去討論我們不偵辦案子我們還是要強調我們不偵辦案子我們是幕僚機關所以我們是處理政策性的問題掌握相關重要案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11011.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11025.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
但是因為這有些情資是有機敏性它不會到我們指揮中心來因為我們不是司法警察機關如果說您講說都是機敏性的話那由此可見是不是很多機關都包庇這不是包庇這是分工的問題好 我們先來看一下這是分工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11029 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11046.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
打詐指揮中心事實上在行政院的處規程裡面也沒你們單位我們現在是臨時性任務編組所以就是臨時性任務編組所以你指揮官你也扮演不了什麼角色大家還對於行政院打詐指揮中心我們月底會改制為常態性任務編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11047.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11062.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
現在社會以為打詐指揮中心扮演重要角色但事實上我們很重要但是我們的角色你們只是個臨時編組委員可能有一點誤解我們的角色任務性的編組都還不是接下來本席要再繼續請教的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11070.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11091.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好那請指揮官可以先請回座好那麼接下來我要談的就是想請問部長還有廳長不好意思對其他的長官可以先請回座請問現在有沒有一個統一的聚寶材料基準我們剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11093.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11115.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
對於就是檢察官和法官他們在違這個拒保裁量的時候看起來都是自由心證有些案子很重要但是他的交保金額就很輕但有些看起來這個法定的罪行也不是很高的但是卻都是高額交保現在自己內部有沒有類似這種拒保裁量基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11118.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11133.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
或是你們有沒有一個檢討評量的一個機制事實上在前113年我們曾經過檢討過在有關於聚寶的金額要怎麼去核定或是一個做相當的指引具體化那我們有委託了研究案也開了一個相當的研討會 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11134.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11163.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那與會的學者跟專家那給我們的回饋意見是說目前在世界各個立法例裡面就拒保金額的部分都沒有一個非常具體的數值性的標準什麼罪名要拒保多少錢大概這個部分比較難構成難建構這種具體性的拒保金額但是我們有一些拒保的相關的規範跟注意事項請法院做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11164.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11190.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那就如同剛剛委員所講的剛剛那幾個要注意省酌的相關事項是我們建議保證要做的 好的我了解了謝謝廳長 這個部長這邊呢應該是現在法務部檢察署這邊也沒有所謂的拒保裁量基準嗎它那個這部分我們有那個檢查機關辦理刑事訴訟案件因行注意事項第44點有地下午站規定說保證基準其實它沒有一個很標準的一個數據但是它要考量到 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11190.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11219.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他的犯的什麼罪他的犯罪的情節本席在這裡我想要提醒的就是我們知道現在行政機關對於裁罰 罰還他們都會自己訂定所謂的裁罰這罰還裁量基準我覺得這可以給很多的這個承辦的人員他們會知道碰到什麼樣的案子大概可以做什麼樣的這個裁罰裁量的這個標準那我本席認為這個事情也很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11220.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11238.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這也不會去影響到什麼法官或檢察官的自由性他看了那個標準之後至少可以跟他一個參考當然他還是可以再去考慮到其他的因素來做一個增減但是如果說你們現在沒有一個這樣的一個具保殘量基準的話就很容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11239.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11256.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
犯了我們像現在看到的很多的問題有些民營大家認為說應該是重罪但是卻又是輕輕的放下然後交保金額也很低就會變成說整個的這個裁量標準是有很大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11258.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11285.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那本期建议说你们这个部分应该要去积极的检讨要赶快去制定不要再去做什么研究计划了这个司法院法务部过去做了太多研究计划但是都没有落实也没有用那么好那接下来就是要回到就是我们讲的这个法务部的这个打诈禁车条款你们现在这个有提出诈房条例的修正案那么有要增订禁车条款作为法院良心的标准 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11286.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11308.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那這個修法方向本身是予以肯定不過只是說在裡面有一些涉及到譬如說什麼叫做一般人通常生活的交通工具一般人通常生活的投資的程度或是一般人的消費一般人的生活的財務等等你們未來你們要怎麼樣去訂定去詮釋這個不確定法律概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11310.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11323.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這部分是給法院的做一個裁量的一個量刑的一個參考是 所以回到就變成說刑事廳這邊未來司法院你們自己要去做一個量刑標準你們可以做得出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11328.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11347.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那個現在的50詐偽條例的現在的第50條修正草案他是把當成禁捨條款他是一種50計劃的量刑的裁量事項之一那這部分是由檢察官來舉證指出證明的方法來提供給法院來做參考包括他有沒有預約他的在還錢之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11348.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11370.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
他又過了怎樣的生活方式有沒有預約一般人為行為標準這是由檢察官來負責舉證來跟法院說明那法院根據檢察官的舉證來做相關的那看起來就這個事情上面就是檢查就是法務部跟法院都還沒有談清楚就法務部跟司法院什麼叫做一般人的生活他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11371.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11387.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
交通工具或它的投資或它的一般的消費未來要達具體化不能夠用這種抽象的方式來體現否則的話這樣定出來是沒有意義的好 接下來最後我用一點時間來談邊形的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11390.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11413.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
剛剛吳四瑤委員其實一直在講就是說如果說台灣未來有可能實施邊形的話那會是人權走回頭路而且那麼從他言下之意似乎是新加坡這個長期實施邊形似乎就是沒人權的國家請問實施邊形就是沒人權嗎可以這麼快的就下定論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11416.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11419.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
请问部长您的看法实施边形是不是没人权 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11421.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11445.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
身體的一個很大的侵害請問坐牢難道不是嗎那是一個自由的問題所以對於自由的侵害跟對於身體的侵害你認為說是有差別的身體的一個外力的傷害這個變形的確是有違反酷刑公約跟公正公約的一個很重大的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11446.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11457.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那像日本的話像委員你就是日本在台灣實現這個平行它是以前那我想這是以前這個老草就已經廢除掉了這個廢除掉而且在 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11459.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11477.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這個在1921年就已經廢除了廢除了所以因為剛剛講到有關於日本確實在日本這個政治台灣的時期裡面那麼當時呢他這個日本為了要加強對於殖民地的統治所以曾經對台灣及朝鮮都實施所謂的這個邊形那當然實施的時間不是很長大概幾年之後就廢除了不過就是說我要談的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11487.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11513.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
今天看到法務部的報告還有各個機關的報告以及剛剛像是吳斯堯委員對於就說實施邊行是不是就是違反人權是不是就是沒有人道這個涉及到這樣子的一個刑罰的一個設計就是很明顯的違反人權我覺得你們必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11515.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11540.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
講話要小心我們不可否認現在新加坡是全球治安最好的國家是全球的旅遊安全標準等等的大家評比最高的國家也沒有人認為說到新加坡會覺得不安全相反的新加坡它現在的治安它的秩序紀律還是成為很多國家的學習的榜樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11541.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11544.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以本席認為說你們在談到邊形的這個議題的時候基本上實在是過於輕率而且本席還要再講的就是說其實在2002年當時的陳地南部長就曾經率團出國考察新加坡的檢查及矯正等相關業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11560.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11579.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
也就是包括新加坡的边形制度所以在陈地南部长那时候其实也不是说没有考虑说未来台湾或许可以仿照新加坡实施边形的情况更何况现在实施边形似乎是民众在民调的这个里面其实大家是 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11580.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11607.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
非常支持的70%的民眾都贊成台灣要引進鞭刑來處罰詐騙犯而且不只是詐騙犯未來像是兒女或性侵等等這些都可以考慮所以本席建議法務部你們還是要去好好的去思考實施鞭刑的可能性刑事政策不能夠脫離國情不能脫離人民的法律情感 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11608.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11627.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
有沒有尊重人權有沒有違憲等等也不是法務部說的算但是呢本席認為說你們應該要好好的把新加坡這套邊形的制度那麼以及在他們當地人民對於這個邊形制度的支持等等這些意見都要研究分析清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11629.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11647.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
畢竟現在是全國的民眾七成以上都很支持邊形而立法院那麼也有很多的委員認為在現在這個詐騙 橫行的情況之下應該要實施邊形所以希望就是你們可以好好的去研究邊形實施的可能性好 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11664.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11671.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
從先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員都尋答結束為止那接下來我們請審發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11684.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11712.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
主席各位同仁在我開始請官員上來詢答之前我想針對今天的我們召委設定的主題其實它是有三個部分第一個部分是太子集團個案一個司法偵查中的個案第二個是跨部會防詐及打詐的成效這是第二個主題第三個主題就是剛才我們召委在最後做了論述的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11714.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11727.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
參考新加坡這個打詐編刑入法可行性的評估大概是三個主題那這個個案的部分我一向個人是非常的不贊同說在立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11729.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11750.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
會議裡面討論正在偵查還在偵查中的個案拿出來立法院做專案討論這部分我個人非常的反對我們這個禮拜三天的委員會就兩天在討論個案我個人是不能溝通的所以這個個案的部分我今天就不質詢我就不針對這個部分來討論那大概就針對後面兩個問題第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11754.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11780.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這個法務部會打詐的成效另外一個就是所謂邊形入這個打詐邊形入法那我現在是不是先請法務部好 請鄭部長委員好部長好我想今天召委會排這樣的題目確實現在這是一般的民眾啦我們去認為一般民眾都認為台灣的詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11783.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11803.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
橫行而且甚至會覺得說好像全世界台灣大概詐騙最嚴重大家會覺得說這個好像台灣是台灣的政府執法單位無能所以讓台灣變成詐騙天堂但一般民眾是這樣的感受這個感受其實是蠻真實的就是說因為民眾對於這個詐騙現在詐騙的這個狀況的嚴重性的感受是蠻真實的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11809.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11828.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
但是我們作為一個政府機關作為一個執法單位我們也要讓民眾知道真相就是說台灣是很嚴重詐騙是很嚴重但不是只有台灣嚴重其實現在這種新型態詐騙不是我們小時候看的金光黨拿一包磚頭去騙人家的金塊那種金光黨式的詐騙不是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11830.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11849.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這十年來這個詐騙都已經是跨境而且他透過這個網際網路透過這種各種方式的這種科技型態在進行的這種我現在就秀出來這個都是事實的這是在全世界各國現在的詐騙問題已經不是台灣單獨面對的說台灣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11854.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11873.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
台灣是非常嚴重不是全世界每一個國家的詐騙其實都非常嚴重也就是說現在這個反詐騙現在已經變成一個全球各個國家大家共通要面對的議題所以跨境的司法合作當然就變得很重要了我看這些新聞新加坡詐騙橫行財產損失260億美國人一天被騙4800萬新加坡剛剛講治安很好的新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11887.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11894.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
韓國 馬來西亞 西班牙每一個國家都一樣這是全球反詐聯盟的統計2024年 去年全球因為詐騙造成的損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11910.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11938.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
全球高達一百零三兆美元一百零三兆的美元不是台幣一百零三兆美元那這裡統計各個國家他的詐騙的受害這第一名是美國美國到到這個三千五百二十平均一個人他跟人口做平均平均一個人損失三千兩百五十三千五百二十美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11939.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11961.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
全球第一再來是丹麥再來是斯洛伐克再來新加坡剛剛講資安最好的新加坡排名全球第四被詐騙的狀況那我這旁邊也統計了我們的這個跟各國世界各國這是去年113年被詐騙的金額台灣大概新台幣502億 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11963.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11990.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我們鄰近的日本去年一年被詐騙的金額高達670億台幣比台灣還嚴重新加坡小小一個國家267.2億美國 當然他國家大所以他被詐騙的案件也多他的經濟規模也大所以他4123億香港 小小一個香港就一年就被詐騙366億 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11994.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12004.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以我要講的是說我們確實要重視但是也必須要讓人民知道說現在這個詐騙大家都說怎麼詐騙集團我們政府為什麼抓不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12005.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12031.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那就是因為這個詐騙不是我們台灣政府抓不到我們一直在抓一直在抓它現在變成我們現在執法單位大概佔了六成的案件六成以上的案件都是都是詐騙案等於每天的現在我們的警察機關我們的調查局我們的司法單位在處理最大宗的超過一半以上的業務就是在打詐但是打不完嘛不只台灣打不完全世界各國都打不完全世界各國都在打 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12033.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12055.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
所以這樣子的問題是但是我要講人民的感受是真實的認為說詐騙嚴重這是真實的這個我們也必須要了解民眾的感受讓我們政府盡力的來做啦那也有很多人尤其像這個太子集團這種個案之後很多人覺得說為什麼台灣詐騙嚴重因為台灣的刑罰太輕了台灣對詐騙的刑罰太輕了 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12060.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12079.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那這個我們也要看這不是說我們說輕就輕我們說重就重要不然我們就詐欺犯罪唯一死刑夠重了吧我們要看全世界是不是其他的國家我們台灣是不是比其他國家的刑罰來得輕這我們也是要做國際的比較所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12082.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12111.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我們看了日本 日本處時我們現在台灣目前是用這個刑法第339條跟339之4條兩條這個詐欺跟加重詐欺罪那另外我們有特別條例有這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例用第43條第44條來做一些加重的規定所以我們在比較的這個世界各國的刑度其實台灣的刑度並不輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12113.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12141.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那是不是是說我們台灣把它加到多重大家才會覺得說那這樣有辦法遏止事實上全世界大家每一個國家都在想辦法要遏止遏止渣期這刑度大概台灣並沒有比其他國家輕這個部分我覺得我們法務部也要讓民眾了解其實包括我們未來我們現在正這個我們這個這個特別條例有一個修法已經送立法院了嗎現在那個現在在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12143.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12159.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這個已經送大院來已經要審議了詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是高額詐欺這個比世界各國都還重很多對 我們高額詐欺事實上是而且我們還包括罰金那個罰金是大概世界其他國家沒有這個還沒有採取這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12164.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12189.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這個我覺得也要讓民眾了解說事實上詐欺犯罪是現在現代每一個國家政府都頭痛在面對的問題我們台灣政府並沒有並不是說政府都在睡覺也並不是說我們都不懲罰不懲罰詐欺犯罪台灣變成詐欺犯罪的天堂 沒有這些詐欺全部都是跨境全球性的安全問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12191.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12216.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那所以接下來我們就討論所以因為這樣因為人民有這種感受所以就有人就有人提出說那是不是要邊形入法是不是要把這個打炸要邊形我看到這個題目在我們立法院司法委員會出現我是真的是蠻驚訝的啦至少在邏輯上我們司法法治委員會在邏輯上我們應該是先討論台灣要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12219.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12229.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
有詐欺這個刑罰要不要有邊刑這個刑罰這個是前提啊有邊刑這個刑罰之後才來討論哪一些刑罰是不是要採用邊刑不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12231.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12259.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
部長對不對我們現在的刑法我們現在目前的刑法規定在刑法第32條33條目前有邊刑嗎有身體刑嗎這個是刑法的種類刑法的種類組刑的種類沒有邊刑所以這是一個刑法總則的問題所以今天提供說參考新加坡打詐邊刑入法是可行性評估事實上是應該要先評估台灣的刑法是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12260.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12286.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
是不是要採納邊形啊如果說我們召委覺得說應該要採邊形那你是立法委員 你就提案啊修改刑法第32條 33條把主刑納入邊形從這裡開始還對啊然後接下來刑法分責再來討論每一個刑法分責哪一些刑事犯罪 哪一些構成要件我們要刻以邊形啊收受賄賂讓建商提高這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12290.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12308.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這個容積率 這個要不要編刑這個就可以討論 這個就是第二步刑法總職完了以後接下來討論酒駕要不要編刑 兒童 兒女要不要編刑然後再來討論這個收受境外資金來跟監人民這個要不要編刑一個一個案子 一種一種犯罪形態來討論這個才是符合邏輯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12312.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12331.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那現在直接就說在我國還沒有編刑這個制度之下來討論打渣要不要編刑這個邏輯實在是太跳躍了那這個編刑入法其實大家一直講新加坡編刑我們就來看全世界到底哪一些國家有編刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12332.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12356.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
如果邊形是這麼好的制度應該是全世界很多國家都會從沒有邊形去改成有邊形這個才是國際趨勢啊這才是如果說邊形這麼好應該是這樣子啊但是我們事實上我們看到是相反的越來越多的國家包括沙烏地阿拉伯越來越多的國家是從原來有邊形到廢止邊形這一定有它的道理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12358.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12385.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我們不要說人權保護我們今天如果真的要修改刑法總則刑法分則要把邊刑入法可以討論其實人民大家也有很多很多人有這種想法說認為就是就打他就鞭打這個很好但是我們要來看看就如果我們要修改包括我們國內法不要說刑法總則不要說我剛講刑法分則要修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12386.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12405.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
你這個 我們現在兩公約是國內法現在兩公約不是國際公約兩公約現在是國內法化了它是台灣的法律如果我們要違反這個兩公約我們自己台灣立法院通過的立法要加入身體刑那我們這個兩公約我們也要面對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12407.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12433.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我們自己要國內法說要把兩公約說排除我們兩公約我們通通遵守但是身體型 酷刑的部分我們不遵守入法嗎這個我認為說邊形是可以討論因為畢竟有太多人太多台灣人民都認為說應該邊形不要說邊形啦我們甚至應該要討論說是不是可以開放民眾一般民眾到警察局前面毆打嫌犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12435.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12454.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這個大家也都覺得去打這些嫌犯大家都覺得這些嫌犯該打啊既然大家都覺得該打是不是我們以後開放讓民眾都可以在警察局門口警察把嫌犯押出來先讓大家打一打再進去徵訊這不是我們所以我們討論問題就要從這個問題的源頭來討論這個其實現在我們看到全世界的邊形其實大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12465.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12493.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
就是以前英國對待殖民地在英國的殖民地留下來就像剛才我們主席講的在台灣的日治時代那時候日本對待殖民地也曾經有過邊形現在全世界在英國過去英國的殖民地已留下來邊形再來就宗教因素宗教因素 伊斯蘭教的教法他們有一些國家宗教因素他會保留邊形 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12495.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12522.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們看到這些國家台灣要加入這些國家的行列成為新的有邊形的國家大家來討論我們看為什麼世界上我們現在沒有看到什麼國家是從沒有邊形現在增加到變成有邊形但是我們確實看到很多有邊形的國家現在取消了邊形這個國際趨勢他一定有他的道理那我覺得要研議也很好在研議我們不是研議打詐要不要邊形 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12524.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12547.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
而是研議台灣要不要編刑這個問題要先研究出來你們先一個態度我們看這麼多立法委員在這邊台灣大家都覺得說要有編刑所以就在討論一下總質詢說要編刑一下說要編刑但是我在立法院沒有看到任何一個委員提案修改刑法第32條33條就直接說我提一個刑法修改草案才會納入編刑我沒看到辦個法案所以這個我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12554.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12567.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
一般民眾的感受我們都要尊重而且我們要非常的去理解但是當我們作為一個立法者我們作為一個執法者我們就應該要把這個問題從根源的 全面的來看待認真的來面對以上好 謝謝沈委員那麼接下來請王一川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12588.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12600.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
好 主席 謝謝接下來我也不知道要請誰上來請問如果行政院長要問說現在打炸打得怎麼樣來做個報告誰會上場報告就自己出來好 請打炸中心馬指揮官好 指揮官你是負責報告嗎委員好 對 我負責報告那你報告就報告儀表板是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12616.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12644.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
報委員不是 其實我們有針對那個打仗行動綱領2.0我們有列管所有部會的績效好 那你們就是報告統計結果也不只 因為跟委員報我們主要是看整個詐騙案它發展的趨勢我知道 因為我看到你們中心的編制你們中心可以開放參觀嗎我們可以 我們只有10個人 很小沒辦法參觀啦 10個人裡面有什麼偉大的設備嗎只有辦公桌跟電腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12646.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12667.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
所以這個打炸中心聽起來就是一個類似匯報的單位我們是幕僚單位就是定期然後各部會帶著自己的資訊來大家匯報一下而且我們會預先部署很多政策那我請問一下中華民國如果要找到一個負責打炸的單位你覺得應該找誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12668.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12696.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
其實跟委員報告我們分散在好幾個部會所以我剛問說行政院長要問這件事情的時候到底誰要負責報告跟委員報告 我們會負責會診但是如果有特定的議題的話會找特定的部會報告那就代表沒有專責機構沒有錯因為我看你們的人員編制裡頭那些都是各單位派來的那派來的那些人都懂打詐嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12697.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12717.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
報委 我們都是請部會派最好的人過來我在地方也當過局長我們市府都有一些很高層級的中心 委員會 編組各局處要派人去 都派那個層級很高的然後基本上都沒什麼效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12718.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12745.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我們有面談所以我們跟委員會面談以後好啦 我只是提醒你們說中華民國真的要找到一個專責負責打炸的這個單位現在沒有啦是就是這個在院裡頭可能要討論一下因為國際上應該很多國家也有這種比較先進的設備啦 人員啦這一些編制比較好打炸啦好 謝謝你謝謝委員好 現在我們請這個警政署這個署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12748.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12758.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這個基層的員警啊我在這個今年我也好像也問過警政署啊那那個偵查隊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12758.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12772.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
有人專門在每天都在辦這個詐騙 每天秋天案件都很多民眾就不時的說我又去用詐騙了 我去用詐騙了那我們的員警也疲於奔命 因為人力編織的問題嘛 疲於奔命我請問一下 我們這些員警在處理這種詐騙案件的時候 他們到底有沒有受過訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12780.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12803.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
有 包委員 那我們對於員警的偵查犯罪那都會做定期的一個教育跟訓練那會做這樣的一個現行詐欺的整個相關的案例還有相關的這個手法那這些詐騙的這個整個的一個技巧和技術那個多久要再想一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12805.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12822.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那些都不定時會去做老師是誰老師是有師資包括有刑事局包括有大隊的刑警大隊的偵查隊的偵查大隊的這些的一個專精的這些的偵查大隊他們學這個的老師是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12823.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12837.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
他這個老師應該有一些也是也有我們業界的相關的這個知識的這些的你不覺得賣相的比較賣相的沒有啦 都賣相的 譬如講現在我請問一下啦現在最主要的以科技偵查的部分我請問一下 警察大學裡頭的老師啊因為你警察大學都教出來以後當警察嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12846.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12870.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
警察大學的教授 副教授 助理教授現在有多少老師專門在研究詐騙目前在學校裡面大概有四位有做專精的研究詐騙中華民國四位警察大學教授還有業界外的外聘人員因為第一線交出來的警察請問一下這些課都開在什麼系 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12871.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12899.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那多看看刑事科系 刑事科的刑事科 我剛查那個相關的科系的老師列出來的專長喔都沒有人有詐騙的所以有些他之前都做了一半 轉過來的啦有的就是學校裡面當然他是對這方面有做研究我沒有外聘的這個師資我知道 外聘的外聘的跟裡面的來做兼任的老師啦對 兼任的老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12901.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12908.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
研究一下 這裡警察大學學校研究一下 跟教保討論一下既然這個詐騙現在是新興的犯罪這個裡面老師 課程幫我們這個員警不只警察大學 包括我們的警專 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12918.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12921.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
在這個基層員警上課在學校上課就要學一些新的啦不然我們的員警查詐騙的技術遠遠不如詐騙集團老闆 我很抱歉我們行事局都是會調全國的各縣市的 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12937.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12941.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
來到中央來做訓練來做訓練訓練完之後再回去當種植的球員都是會做這樣不斷的對科技偵查的一個這樣的一個訓練跟你對偵查隊來講他們的基隆派來做詐騙的真好有時候他就再接下去還要上去還要上回去還要扮男 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12956.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12963.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
大家都很累啦 人力沒那麼多啦所以說學校裡面已經有加這幾份的他們就會就課程多開一點學生選修也可以那往這個方向可能以後再查這些案子的時候轉嫁一點不然你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12977.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12980.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
外企員派來調查這個 他也每天很苦惱的我接著很嚴謹的跟我說 哇這個大約一半的時間都在辦詐騙因為量多嘛 量多啦所以接的案件每一個的量 剛剛有講大概60%大概都在偵辦詐騙這一塊大概跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12995.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13011.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
警察大學或警專 跟教育部 大家討論一下看老師 師資的朋友 能讓你們爭奪給 聘歸的跟專業的老師專門在教這個我們的研究強化對 研究強化 我想這應該是沒有人的反對接下來我請問一下 這個這應該是金管會銀行局 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13022.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13048.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我們現在這個詐騙的這個金流或者是洗錢的金流現在對你們來說你們都是一種比較被動的預警被動 對你們發現有異常通報跟委員報告 我們會主動的去相關的金流我們會主動偵測那如果發現有異常金流我們都會主動的好 那你們是單筆異常還是這家公司很異常 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13049.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13061.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我們會從金流來看那公司本身我們會審查他的一些背景條件我跟你們記一下這間公司假設每個月都差不多七百萬的進出平常他要出一條五百萬的你們會預計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13064.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13093.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
就過去實務上來講這個就是有出現異常的情況那異常銀行他會先做初步的篩選他不會說有跳出來異常他就馬上申報因為這麼多的量他會癱瘓到了我們洗錢防治處他的這個效能所以銀行他會基本的篩選過認為有值得申報的這種情資他才會去做申報那因為這些案子會就是這些洗錢案會越來越多所以相關的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13094.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13117.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
程序上也都已經完成這些通報可是還是讓這些人得逞這些案子你們應該去彙整要有一些比較新的作為才不會說記錄上我們有通報我們有通報後面後端那個就是後邊的偵查的作為我們已經通報因為對後面的檢察官或者這些偵查的作為的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13118.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13137.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
他們也是按照你們的通報才有機會繼續往下查因為你們那一端是最陰暗這端是最快的只是說這個通報的機制按照過去的經驗包括在洗錢洗到各式各樣的硬幣或者各式各樣的這個幣幣的時候你們應該要有更積極的這樣因為這案件越來越多應該都有經驗那國際上大家怎麼洗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13144.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13159.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
在台灣怎麼洗的洗到哪裡洗到哪裡的這一些機制啊我是建議銀行局這邊要更加主動去改善啦不是說把事情做好而已因為對後面辦案的這個單位來說他也是接受你們的提醒嘛或者是通報他們才會有作為他不知道這個銀行那邊錢發生了什麼事嘛好這一塊再請你們這個努力啦好不好好那這個馬指揮官啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13175.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13200.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
你交代的事情你要處理 要不然高雄高雄縣長 總統說來報告一下打炸狀況你去你疑問三不知 不惜可以表板都要幾件幾件我們不疑問三不知 我們掌握全局趨勢圖往下往上 很有作為 說那個就不好說那個就老人 詐騙也是還在的高雄縣總統或縣長把你吐槽這句 你就不能做什麼指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13201.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13230.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我們總是要有一個 欸你如果說今天你看委員要去參觀打詐中心是不是說十個人 五隊都啊 現在一個比什麼棒這件事情跟院長我抱一下就是說要有一個看起來比較有性的東西嘛我們政府在打詐的東西比人家的詐騙集團都濃厚詐騙集團看你們辦公室看完回去就在笑我們會努力 我們會努力這時候要把我們做 要打我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13231.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13259.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
誰被打還不知道我們部會的這個設備跟這些基本上都是夠的我們是做會診不是設備啦 設備要電腦而已我是說那個技術啦我相信國際上你們應該都有去參訪國際上能怎麼打炸那個專業單位回來跟院長報告一下說我們這個要怎麼樣改善不然詐騙集團請我們說在這邊打炸中心這就對面了 要跟我們打炸這樣好不好好 好 加油謝謝 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13262.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13276.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
好 謝謝王委員難得我跟王委員的這個在這個意見是一致的我剛非常我剛有聆聽了王委員最後的結論我非常贊同 打在中心真的要好好的要好好的檢討你們現在的這個功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13282.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13302.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
完全沒有發揮然後如果只是看打詐一表板或者是這個看看這個輿情分析這沒有什麼太大的意思了這個要要依據依照我們王委員的意見好好的這個重新再組織振作好那接下來請羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13317.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13322.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
謝謝主席 有請金管會同局長好 請金管會委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13330.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13347.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
局長好 局長這次我們有看到太子集團涉嫌你這個空殼公司在台灣購置11戶的豪宅跟26輛的豪車等高價的資產作為洗錢的工具其實除此之外其實有很多的不法集團洗錢最常用的就是虛擬貨幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13349.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13375.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那如果他們是利用國內登記的虛擬資產服務商的話至少我們還可以追查到他的金流然後救責可是如果是透過境外的虛擬資產平台洗錢的話那國內我們根本是無法管轄也難以追查那我有發現金管會在今年年初的時候其實我們有提出了虛擬資產服務法草案那特別有提到就是說要跟外國的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13376.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13395.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
機構還有國際組織來做合作本身想了解是這是一個怎麼樣的模式以我們台灣在國際上的困境來講的話我們要如何建立官方的管道或者是我們有哪一些可以合作的國際組織來防堵洗錢的行為請問區長是 各位委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13396.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13418.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那個服務法本身目前現在行政院還在審查當中那未來有關於就是說整個洗房機制的一個跨國的合作那會建構在我們行政院洗房辦底下我們會不管是說從司法互助或者說金融機構之間怎麼樣去做相關的協作會在整個行政院洗房辦底下的一個通盤性的一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13419.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13441.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
對 我現在想了解是國際上的這個合作因為本席剛剛有提到就是說其實有很多這個洗錢利用虛擬貨幣洗錢其實都是在國外的這個平台當然國際上的合作就非常的重要所以你們特別在草案的第五條特別提到說會跟國際來做合作那我們知道說其實這個部分一直以來都是有困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13442.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13451.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那既然你在法條裡面有特別提到這個部分所以我們想說如果是說沒有辦法建立官方的管道的話那我們有哪一些可以合作的國際組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13454.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13474.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
國際組織可能在虛擬資產的部分因為是我們政企局負責我比較不是那麼的熟悉所以你不是那麼的熟悉這個部分我們再提取相關的報告給委員這個可以提書面給我了再來還有我想請教一下就是有關於APG就是亞太房子洗錢組織其實我們在1997年的時候就也是創始會員國 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13478.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13500.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那這麼多年以來幾十年下來的話我不曉得說我們跟這個組織之間的互動到底是怎麼樣的一個狀況那到底發揮了什麼樣的作用或是說過去有哪些成功破破的洗錢的這些成功的案例這個局長知道嗎是那個就我初情的了解就是說我們參加那個APG事實上已經非常久我們也是創始會員國沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13501.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13520.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
那最主要是APG它會對我們這些會員國它會進行相關的洗房評鑑那最近一次是在2018年我們接受APG的一個評鑑是得到亞洲區最佳的一般追蹤的一個規格那這個都是各部會在行政院洗房辦指導之下我們通力合作所展現出來的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13521.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13539.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
它只是做一個評鑑的一個最主要是在評鑑是在評鑑所以其實上並沒有一些實際上說可以利用這個組織就是APG我們之間有怎麼樣的一個實際上的一個互動或是聯手或是聯訪這種動作都沒有聯訪的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13539.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13553.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
可能是涉及到司法偵辦的部分那可能或許法務部那邊他有相關的一個對口單位但APG最主要是來看你這個國家整個洗房不管是法制執行面到底做得好不好對那我們是有接受他的一個評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13555.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13560.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
所以我也希望就是說因為我看年初你們就已經提出了這個法案當然現在還在行政院的討論審議當中我們也希望說這草案出來之後我們跟國際上真的是能夠有一個實質的合作關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13573.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13599.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
因為我知道說這部分過去我每次在詢問相關單位的時候常常就說跨國的部分可能很困難這是因為我們沒有管轄權我們因為在國際上的困境所以跟很多國家也沒有辦法可以建立一個正式的官方的管道居然說我們要有這個草案的出來當然就是想有決心就是要徹底的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13600.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13614.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
破除這些所謂的洗錢跟詐騙的行為當然有些部分可能局長你這邊沒有辦法馬上回答本席的這部分可能就需要麻煩您回去的時候用書面的方式以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝羅委員接下來請楊瓊英委員 楊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13631.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13652.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
謝謝主席 楊潔芸發言本席邀請司法院法務部調查局行政院打詐指揮中心警政署金管會好 請這些機關的代表到台前 謝謝之所以請大家一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13653.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13673.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
因為到目前為止民眾對於打炸他看不到成果而且坊間還有一句話說越打越炸這一句話對我們國家政府來講是一個很大的私信於民本席也不希望有這樣的聲音出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13674.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13692.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
所以今天之所以請大家一起上來到底誰可以負責能夠怎樣去調整所以就針對太子集團爆發的這個案子我們看到檢調單位開始從11月份去搜索47處拘捕了這些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13693.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13722.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
扣押的部分包括房屋、現金還有車子大概是45.3億左右這個金額甚至這個空貨公司也進駐到101如果不是美方來通報我們根本還沒有看到啟動的一個調查動作所以在整個事件當中認為是非常的荒腔走板 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13722.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13746.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以我代替民眾問了一句話政府在哪裡所有的單位都在這裡我要請問政府到底在哪裡因為金管系統事前的預警可以說是完全的失能那主動調查詐欺洗錢的單位又完全的失職所以人民認為我花了這麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13748.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13775.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我們的打榨中心到底在針對整個這個洗房的體系打榨體系他認為怎麼都失效了怎麼都失能了在這樣的情況之下呢因為本席看到你們的報告金管會說52次提出預警的一個通報52次提出預警的通報給調二局 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13775.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13796.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那到底這個問題環節出在哪裡所以本期要請教各位太子集團這一次政府後知後覺抓不出來還要靠國外的人來通報那麼我們的機制問題到底出在哪裡請做說明來 哪一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13803.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13829.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
包委員 其實這一案子就是說以我們調查局跟警政署其實早有掌握不然的話不可能在美方它執行的兩週後我們就能夠馬上去查扣到這些不動產大家想也知道這麼龐大的資產我們怎麼可能兩個禮拜突然間能夠去掌握到這一定是事先經過很長的一段時間的修正掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13829.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
13845.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那這中間最主要的功勞就是這些銀行他們歷年來的這些通報透過他們的這些通報我們在做加值的分析26件以後其實我們早就已經有分送相關的執法機關包含我們的國際友方 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
13846.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
13872.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
所以這是一個整個跨國性的犯罪以我們台灣來講的話我們中華民國幾乎是跟國際是同步在執行這樣的一個案件這裡面包含了美國也是在10月14號執行英國也是然後我們在11月4號然後接著還有香港 新加坡大家都是在這個階段裡面同步去執行的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
13874.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
13886.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
其實不能說是我們在這個部分有什麼失靈的部分其實這個金管會跟相關的金融機構的這些申報其實發揮了非常大的功能我必須要為他們講一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
13887.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
13916.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這就要在你所說的說明你認為你們盡了很大的力才能夠有這樣的一個成效接下來本席要請教民間的一個認知跟我們被詐的數字跟剛剛所說的似乎是有不同調那接下來本席要請教連行政院長都已經出生 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
13919.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
13934.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
你們抓了法務部15萬人交保外界給予的認知這麼重大的數字你們認為要怎麼樣告訴民眾這樣子的一個決策是對還是不對 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
13938.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
13962.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
這個案件有拘捕了24名那我們就是涉案情節的一個不同像那個核心幹部我們有生押了台北地檢署有生押了5個核心幹部那法院那部分有裁押了4位獲准一位圖信的被告他是交保30萬元那這部分我們有看到告院是駁回的所以核心幹部這一部分有4個押 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
13963.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
13976.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
四個羈押獲准一個是被法官改交保三十萬另外其餘的被告那部分我們按涉案的情節就有不同的強制准包括交保限制科控等等的其他的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
13978.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
13997.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那這個太子現在什麼你特助10萬交保那個是以涉案的情節涉案的情節以及他的職位的涉案情節等等的因素來做一個交保的一個處分並不是有什麼中放的如果有中放的話那核心幹部那個有聲要或者獲得法院的一個支持謝謝你的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
13999.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14013.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
連行政院長都震怒當行政院長震怒的時候也代表了人民的聲音那請教各單位你們有給行政院長去說明嗎你們有表示你們的立場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14016.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14035.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
有沒有哪一個單位連行政院長都震怒因為這個是必須跨機關當然相關同仁是很辛苦但是我覺得這個政府到底出了什麼事你們每一個人都說我很努力而且我做得很好了可是你的行政院長震怒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14037.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14065.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這怎麼回事呢是行政院長亂震怒還是怎麼回事還是我們的機制在整個跨機關裡頭的領域我們有怎麼樣的精進角度我想這個就是打造這個是我們全民的心聲那我們打造團隊是全民的心聲啊因為全民已經心聲恐懼啊所以我們打造的也一往承請那個居了查獲那麼多的一個財產那我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14066.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14085.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那個希望就是整個一個在溯源在一個追查那我想這部分也請委員能夠了解說我們這個打炸的團隊是非常用心而且是有成果其實現在的案件量跟整個一個採取量都有下降的一個趨勢當然這個氣焰還是它那個像炸斷式變形蟲一樣它還是不斷的一個演化 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14087.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14114.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
就不斷的演化那這部分表示說它為什麼要演化就是說它被我們才有績效它還要再想辦法弄一個新的一個你現在所討論的是整個過程但是民眾要看的是結果我怎麼樣能夠安全所以本身告訴你說如果加大管控的一個力道它能有效的來主炸來打炸我相信人民它在一定程度的這個氛圍上面它是接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14115.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14128.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
所以在這樣的情況之下我們真的不希望連行政院長都已經震怒有人說大胃你不敢抓你只有老民稍微他這個多一點像小戶的像忽編打的像網拍的稍微他多一點進出或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14135.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14138.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
好久沒有用的這個帳號馬上就給他來作為預防性的一個凍結等等我想這些是民眾的心聲我們代表著民眾來告訴政府民眾的心聲他們的希望是什麼所以我給你一個結論也就是我們從整個通報在我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14160.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14180.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
情報分析以及跨部會的一個協作到國際資產的一個追蹤本席認為我們都還有很大的一個精進空間因為最重要的是它是整個跨部會整個跨部會這應當要能夠有所精進作為你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14181.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14206.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這時候我們一直在做一個打仗都要做一個合作那我們保護部是懲詐的主宰機關我們就從個案的辦理去檢視看看我們各個機關的全管制司可以再做一個測盡的作為這個就對了因為到底是你的工具不夠到底是你的決策沒有辦法及時這個就是本席所說的整個盡進方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14207.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14223.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
就是一個滾動式的調整所以本席認為也有人在研擬我們在整個大型的洗錢詐騙企業能夠進行行政制裁快速的金融制裁並且立即凍結詐騙資金的法規你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14227.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14238.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
我們都一直在隨時在滾動式的檢討我們希望這個是不是支持這樣的一個方向這個我們本來就在做了可能可以更敘述你的法規還不夠啊所以才導致現在的這個狀況啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14241.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14270.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個我們一直在做一直在做滾動式的一個精進的作為你將本席所具體建議的剛剛所說的行政制裁快速金融制裁以及凍結詐騙資金的一個法規你去研擬到你目前在進行當中的你認為有哪一些精進可以讓我們更有效能這是民眾要支持政府好好的來幫助民眾這才是對的一個政策跟決策 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14272.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14293.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
這個我想我們先努力你們去研擬 研擬出來的方案給本席看這個方向打架 因為這個是官部會只有打架國家對那個行政院打架那個打架辦公室來做一個統合打架辦公室 來 主任委員好之所以大家都站起來因為不知道誰要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14295.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14314.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
不知道誰要負責 一個環節扣一個環節所以分工合作 但分工合作要有分進合集呀對不對 所以我們現在指揮中心在統合 就是在政策面指揮中心跟阿本席所提出的這樣的方向你去精進方案好 這個我們來研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14316.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14345.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
我們也希望工具方面可以更加的精進我們也希望決策方面可以更加的與時近近才能夠真正保護民眾嘛謝謝委員我們現在在進行打詐條例的二次修法那也要請大院支持你們什麼時候要送出來我們已經送了我們已經送過來了那個內容呢有包括本席剛剛所說的嗎我們送一份草案到委員辦公室有包括剛剛本席所提出的嗎行政裁罰有嗎我們包括刑度提高整個都有處理行政裁罰有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14346.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14372.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
有 行政裁罰我們是罰款行政裁罰不是罰款這個是行度跟金額的提高所以您注意聽 本席剛才所說的如果針對於大型的這個部分在我們整個企業等進行行政制裁跟快速金融制裁跟地級凍結詐騙資金這個部分最重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14372.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14391.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
要不然你抓到了沒有錢也沒有用所以這樣子的規章才能夠真正的幫助民眾你們去研議好不好跟你們現在所送來的方向是不一樣嗎我們送一份草案到委員辦公室委員再跟我們知道送一份草案這個本席有因為你們的方案跟本席所說的不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14392.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14408.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
方向不一樣 你們去研擬本席所說的這個方向 真正能夠讓我們更有效能 好吧 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝楊委員 那接下來我們請李昆城委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14420.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14426.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
謝謝主席我們先請法務部曾部長調查局陳局長銀行局的通局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14434.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14461.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
大家好 辛苦了在上個禮拜三的時候其實我就在金管會我們就問過這個問題了那時候我是認為說我們都是要等到美國的司法部還有財政部要求台灣配合調查之後我們才開始展開這個行動所以那時候我也問了這個同局長就是說你們這個申報的資料到底有沒有交給這個調查局還有有關的單位那時候同局長的答覆是說有 有做了52次的申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14462.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14474.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那這方面我先請這個同區長再做細一點的答覆這52次的申報是從2019年開始嗎那是分幾年申報了幾次還是都是在2019年申報的 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14476.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14490.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
一半的這個量是在2019年的時候申報的一半 一半 26次 2019年那之後咧大概就是其中有22次的部分是集中在2019年的時候就108年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14494.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14508.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那之後是因為有些案件是因為它金額的往來並不是很大那因為被媒體揭露了之後這些金融機構才進行相關的申報那所以後來到最後申報是到哪個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14509.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14518.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
就是到最新的大概是現在為止到現在為止 對那分佈時間也很久從2019年你說20幾次 22還26大概22次22次申報那後來還有30幾次就是從2019 2020年到現在也5年的時間陸陸續續會申報好 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14528.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14543.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
那我問了之後那這個可能要請陳局長來做答覆了那我想說那52申報為什麼沒有任何的舉動啊沒有採取任何的行動啊那隔天你們就發布了新聞稿就說有你們有去做了延邊加值金融情報26件就表示這26件是有情報價值的 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14546.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14556.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這可以繼續再追查下去的對 會診出來又覺得更有可疑的我們就把它研編出來然後分送給那也是在2019年的時候嗎不是 這從2019年到現在陸陸續續陸陸續續好 那我問了26件你們認為說有這個情報價值然後呢 之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14566.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14595.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
按兵不動等到美國的司法部財政部要求要調查之後我們才開始做謝謝 謝謝委員給我們有這個機會說明其實在這個過程裡面其實就是點點滴滴我們透過這樣子的一個金融情報去標定到特定的人然後從特定的人再去標定到特定的公司然後從人 公司再去標定到和平大院的這些資產跟這些豪車還有銀行的帳戶那當然這中間有包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14595.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14620.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
調查局也有包含刑事局那所以這五年的時間你們怎樣埋伏然後暗兵不動然後要等待什麼時機咧一方面清查然後一方面我問局長就是說為什麼沒有採取行動那還是部長可以回答我為什麼沒有採取行動我就可以回答因為這個部分必須要有前置犯罪洗錢的犯罪必須要所以那時候沒有認為說他們有洗錢的嫌疑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14621.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14635.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
有嫌疑一來一去我們50萬就要通報了他有嫌疑但是我們就要找到說這一筆錢他到底前置犯罪是什麼因為他這是一個跨國的一個詐騙所以他在台灣他從2019年開始之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14640.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14656.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
在台灣買了八棟的這個豪宅八戶啦 八戶的這個豪宅然後呢 金額總共花了38億然後這個豪宅呢 都是登記在同一個人身上那個人的這個忠義叫做林忠良這個你們都有掌握到嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14657.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14680.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
你們沒有認為說他是不是洗錢啊為什麼在和平大院買了8戶然後總共花了38億然後都是集中在2019年密集買入而且這些8家公司都是空殼公司都登記在豪宅裡面你們沒有任何的懷疑有當然有懷疑有懷疑然後呢所以我們現在因為這個本案的主嫌從110年出境他就沒有再進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14682.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14700.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那在台灣沒有任何人了嗎台灣就是他的這些我問局長如果沒有美國司法部財政部要求我們配合調查的話所以繼續在那邊等待嗎其實本案美國沒有要求我們配合調查本案美國在起訴的時候他也沒有通知我 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14701.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14716.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
對但是那為什麼剛好大家都是14號 15號開始他一公告制裁的時候我們就知道就是說大家都動了所以當然這個時候我們也有默契我們就馬上要啟動這個案件這個相關的這些資產的扣押所以也是有通知我們嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14718.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14733.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
這個不用他通知我們其實看新聞看上對有默契這個大家國際之間大家有默契我那時候說如果不是在司法部起訴之後列了這一個有台灣人的名字然後還有酒後在和平大院裡面你們不會採取行動對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14734.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14752.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
他是說酒家公司美國也不知道有資產在理財院我的問題大家的疑問我早上聽了這麼久就是說你們已經有情報了然後也知道說在這邊有掌握有掌握然後呢就沒有然後了所以就是說在美方公告制裁以後我們在兩國內我們就要馬上執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
14754.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
14782.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
宣告制裁之後我們才開啟行動嘛對不對那大家的疑問就在於說那如果沒有美國的這一次制裁的行動的話那我們是不是就繼續在那邊安兵不動繼續的等在那邊我們也想要抓到陳志啊講白了一點就是這樣子啊你們又想要抓到他如果祖賢他沒有入境的話我們怎麼會去除了祖賢之外難道旁邊沒有周圍那些小弟嗎你沒抓到大頭沒有用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
14783.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
14810.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那所以你就在那邊一直等嗎我的意思是說就在那邊一直等嗎而且你對於他們洗錢洗把這個錢洗成說這個豪宅名車你們沒有任何的一些警覺性嗎這個就算你們這段期間做了很多的努力這個14號之後當美國的司法部一起訴之後你們馬上就說有 我們都準備好了你看我們都已經知道說誰是誰了豪宅名車我們都知道了隔幾天就馬上去追了 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
14812.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
14835.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
可是如果沒有美國的這個行動的話那是不是都還是在那邊大家彼此都還在情報交換其實大家也都想要去抓到這個層次不是啊 那你現在層次也沒有進來我們還不是要照抄因為就是說大家通通都已經曝光了那當然我們不執行不行我們不執行的話他的資產萬一移走我們不是更糟 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
14836.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
14851.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
這個就是大家在懷疑的地方那這個也是到目前為止我認為啦因為我早上也有聽我認為就是不論是部長局長或是說各位沒有把大家心中的疑點說出來你就是等到15號之後才開始行動了嘛之前都是準備埋伏 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
14854.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
14877.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
是這樣子所以你是要等到美國的信號是這樣子美國的信號開始之後才開始追包委員還有另外一個重點因為他這個整個的犯罪其實是在國外以我們台灣我在台灣我意思是說他把錢洗成豪宅跟民車把資產藏在一部分是洗了45億一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
14878.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
14904.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
其他國家更多英國有1.3億的美金我說在台灣至少有洗了45億嘛對不對是 他把資產藏在那邊那為什麼你們沒有按照什麼洗錢防治法做任何的對 所以就我剛剛跟委員報告了洗錢防治法它有前階段的前置犯罪我們必須要掌握到前置犯罪50萬就要申報了50萬就要銀行就要金融機構就要跟你們申報了申報是沒有犯罪啊申報 對 申報沒有犯罪那就有警覺了嘛對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
14907.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
14933.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
所以你們認為說之前都沒有犯罪的行為就對了所以沒辦法去抓他我們在監控因為在國內其實因為他的犯罪在國外在國內我們也還沒有找到我們國內是洗錢不然我們現在是用什麼去抓他組織犯罪條例組織犯罪條例還有其他等等那如果按照局長講的這犯罪都在國外那我們為什麼用組織犯罪條例去抓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
14935.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
14961.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
因為這案子還有前段的一個過程就是112年的時候他們有內訌他們其實彼此互相告過好 那又是另外一個story了沒有 現在就是大家大家的疑問就在於說如果沒有美國的這個起訴書的話我們就是在看說好 那就等這個城市哪時候會進來或是說等發生什麼事情再來做處理就對了那就大家還在合作大家各國都要抓到想要抓到他 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
14962.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
14992.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
現在沒有 他沒有出現我們也是照辦對不對因為美方已經動了我們當然就是要動答案就是說美方動起來我們才動我們其實是國際同步執行好 我再來問一下那個童局長來 謝謝局長這個案子我看你們今天的報告你們有提到說有10家本國銀行跟太子集團旗下10家公司還有關聯戶有存款的往來有沒有包含這個公股銀行目前沒有目前沒有 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
14993.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15005.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
然後呢 這個最早開戶追溯到2018年然後你說三家銀行這是你們的報告三家銀行有受信的往來這什麼意思是有跟他們受信買豪宅 買豪車嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15008.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15026.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
最主要是借户他在銀行他有定存美金那他想要用定存單的把美金的定存單直接出來變成台幣去買他的標的物所以這個壽星往來大概就是借戶他本身跟銀行有定期存款 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15027.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15054.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
你說白話文一點是什麼意思就是說它在銀行本來就已經有存定存那存定存不是只有在這三家十家都有不是嗎但大部分就是說它會跟這三家所謂有壽性往來最主要是因為它有存美金的定存那因為它要去買比較高價的標的物所以它不要把美金的定存解出來它就說好那我把美金定存直接出來借成台幣去買那所以這些豪宅是這樣子買的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15055.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15071.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
就是太陽不一但是只要大額交易可以交易銀行都有盡到他該申報的義務那所以這三家銀行沒有問題嗎我們有進行相關的經檢在洗錢房子申報的過程裡面他們都有盡到該盡的義務所以沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15073.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15100.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
就洗錢防治的申報義務作為這個部分是沒有問題的那我覺得蠻奇怪的啦這個你們或許有你們的精簡的一個原則因為上次我有問那這個彭主委他也有提到就是說未來啦有關於這個洗錢你把它洗洗到買豪宅洗到買豪車 民車這個幾乎是這個詐騙集團的標配了那我們沒有任何的防治的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15102.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15112.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
就是說像你有提到說這個資料不是只有給調查局比如內政部他有地政室然後經濟也送到協防中心等等這個能不能串起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15114.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15136.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
就是說因為現在大家都知道說要去把這個錢洗成豪宅啊洗成民車啦那沒有任何的規範嗎根委員報告現在洗錢防治法的規範是我們這些監理機關會要求所轄的機構把相關的情資統一送到我們國家的FIU就是洗錢防治處所以我不會把洗錢防治處是調查局的吧然後勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15137.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15149.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
所以包括你這邊所講的像地政室他也納管就是說在做這個大筆的不動產買賣的時候他也必須要把相關的情形這次有嗎這次有嗎這次買豪宅有嗎有嗎 局長有嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15157.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15173.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
委員你問到重點我之前有白問的就對了依照那個洗錢防治法除了金融機構他有申報的義務其實那個不動產經濟業還有地震室他也都有申報的義務他有申報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15174.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15201.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
對 沒有沒有申報以本案來說就是說我們未來還需要再進進的地方應該就是我剛提到這兩部分但是就銀行來講我剛已經有講過銀行他該盡的責任他已經申報了但他買了這麼多豪宅其實在這中間會經過不動產經濟業者也會經過地震室那不動產經濟業跟地震室其實應該也要去做KYC這個接下來漏洞要怎麼補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15204.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15218.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
這個大概我們會跟相關的部會去建議應該這是監理的問題這是哪裡 內政部嗎監理的問題我們有提出建議我們到時候會提出建議你們要趕快把這個洞補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15220.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15247.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
如果每次看到新聞詐騙集團被抓到之後他們就是住豪宅就是開民車大家覺得說就住詐騙集團就好了對 這個本案雖然其實我們有成功的扣到這些整個太子集團的這些資產但是台高檢署其實也針對本案也召開了各部會的一個會議來研究說就這個案子來說我們還有沒有什麼可以再精進的地方就像你剛才講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15248.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15276.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
那委員問的啦對啊就是這個要把它補起來這段時間把它補起來好不好謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員那麼接下來就請鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在高金素美委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15277.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15283.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
高金素美委員高金素美委員不在那陳婉婷委員麻煩請發言 謝謝你好 我們請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15301.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15315.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
部長好部長上次質詢的時候我們是針對這個詐欺能不能夠把詐欺的前科犯他把他的賬戶資訊提供給金融機構讓他們做重點的去勾擊然後事先去防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15315.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15332.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那時候我們得到回復是因為缺乏法源嘛包含這個不起訴處分書起訴書應該是不能夠提供給非相關人士那獄警中心的資料也要去識別化因此現在是比較保留那部長這個我剛才的這個論述是正確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15336.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15360.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
這部分這個不能夠要去四倍化這個的確是沒有錯那那個預警中心這部分我們會有把一些可疑的這些我們辦的可疑的帳戶跟那個同時那個金融機構金融機構也會把他們發現可疑的交易的資料給我們那其實這一種的機制是相當好也有一些的重大的成果包括台北地檢署預警中心他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15362.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15379.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
經過這個機制他們有一個斬金專案他也查獲了一百多 將近兩百億的這些的交易被害的金額高達一百六十幾億另外那個被害人高達好幾千人那這個陸續發生的這些的成效出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15380.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15394.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
好 部長那我來講一下就是說過去這一兩個禮拜我有分別去質詢警政署警管會跟數位部那我們一起來想一個比較經濟的方案但是這些方案必須要合法要有法源那甚至是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15396.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15422.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
邏輯性也要有那才不會說我們我自己來去提案倡處立法但其實沒有符合任何的效益所以我質詢警政署跟軍管會的時候他們是有提到說如果說修法授權讓警方能夠提供有詐欺相關前科或者是通緝資料給予金融機構的話他們認為是可以大幅提升防詐的效率或者是協助金融單位在事前在事前識別高風險對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15423.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15450.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那金管會是說如果有這個明確的法源授權的話他們願意導入他們的金融機構風險的系統去進行攻擊那跟內政部跟警政署來進行資料交換跟機制那數位部他們是說因為有TRO的存在所以這些傳輸的話是可以在資安的前提之下把這些訊息來去傳遞那所以我們我自己的想法是沒有要求要全面公開個資因為這對主帳沒有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15451.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15478.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我們是針對高風險就是我剛剛提到的他有前科或者是他現在還在被通緝或者是他有起訴書的這些狀況之下先給金融機關或者是先給監管的機關這一些的資訊不是要用來職工內部做事前的做這個來去做勾結而已他並沒有說不讓他使用這些金融機構的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15479.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15500.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
如果在這樣子的前提之下不知道部長有沒有可能把這一些從賬戶擴大到已經判決確定的詐欺前科犯如果只是限縮在以判決確定的詐欺前科犯這樣子的原則上是可不可以做可不可以由這樣子的修法你的法律的見解是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15502.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15528.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
這部分我有關心事實上我們目前在做的是在提供潛在被害名單給金融帳戶因為我們是主被害名單被害名單是主帳因為加害人如果說他有前科的我們不能夠預想說他就是會成為加害人現在我們潛在的被害因為這是行政監管但是在臨櫃的時候或者是在有潛在的被害人我們發現有些被害的這些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15531.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15544.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
的名單的話我們是希望在前面監管單專業管單就把它攔阻下來不要它成為被害人所以 不然我再重複一下你是說在你是用潛在的被害名單對 被害名單我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15546.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15570.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我們包含在辦率是23%這個我們之前有提過這一些已經有累犯的就甚至我們好我們把前科犯把他因為可能過於敏感我們再把他劃掉我們針對已經有累犯他已經有前科又累犯又是詐欺犯這樣子的狀況之下有沒有辦法做這樣子的修法讓他們可以做相關的提供這部分我們再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15573.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15598.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
另外最主要是因为这刚才委员关心的就是这个全科这是属于个资法第六条的特种的个资那是不是适合去提供给金融机构去做一些的一些预防的措施或者是它开户或者是风险的控管那这部分可能还要再研究因为我现在我们可以就是我就再把它限说到 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15598.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15625.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
詐欺的累犯因為過去我們包含酒駕的這種重複犯罪的話我們是可以直接把他的這一個包含他的這個相片還有他的過去的這個作案的這種詳細的狀況直接在網站上面都給他揭露出來所以是不是有可能來去做一個特別的修法來去針對累犯的前科犯累犯的這個累犯的詐欺犯把這個東西的資訊提供給金融機構做監管這部分我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15627.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15643.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
因為我是希望可以跟法務部來討論一下就這個法條上面的不能夠來一起來研究一下好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林淑芬委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15656.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15668.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
很訝異我們這個司法院副秘書長沒有來他讓人失落了失望了沒想到廳長有來那我們只能問廳長好來聽聽你起來來有請廳長國民法第六條第一項第四款規定就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15683.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15694.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
有這種例外的狀況可以這個不適用國民法官法啊上次你旁邊這個人叫什麼名字上次當然回答我你是女法官我們刑事廳的法治法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15700.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
15718.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
我在問他說你們那個我問你們副秘書長結果你們與法官來回答我問你們說啊可以不適用國民法官法審理就是第一項第四款有規定被告就被訴事實為有罪的陳述我認罪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
15719.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
15736.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
然後再來經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節任不刑國民參與審判為適當我問你們說這個條文後半段是什麼意思什麼叫做依案件情節任不刑國民參與審判為適當可不可以舉個例子給我聽聽看你們與法官講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
15743.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
15764.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
他說涉及到生命法益的 對吧 法官你當時這樣講吧我再問你說 什麼狀況可以不要適用國民法官審理你再跟我講涉及到生命法益的 那就是一定本來就適用了一定要用 我問你叫 可以哪些不用用你回答我說一定要用的你把我整笑了 來 聽電話你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
15767.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
15785.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
跟委員說明一下國民法官的立法意旨沒有不要跟我講那麼多時間有限你就回答我這第四款的這個文字第一個當事人這個已經認罪了後半段是什麼意思你舉個例子讓我了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
15787.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
15802.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
譬如說他量刑的部分他跟檢察官的求刑或是辯護的或是被告的對刑度的部分你現在是在亂講什麼經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認為不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
15805.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
15821.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
國民參與審判為是當這句話是在說什麼委員會不會讓我慢慢把它陳述出來這個條文你們 你就回答我這個就好我不需要你再去論述法律是你們定的 條文也是你定的叫你舉例說明你舉不出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
15822.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
15851.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
我要舉例的說這個是跟他講說可以行國民法官的時候對不對我們會跟他講說你要不要認罪那你認罪之後呢他認為說他可能對相關的刑度或者是證據調查他都全部沒有什麼特別的意見那法院認為說檢察官或是辯護人對相關的請求不行國民法官的請求任何適當的話就可以不讓他進行國民法官回到通常程序去審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
15852.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
15880.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
是這個情形啊對 你講得太好了所以我在跟你講有個案發生啊個案就是第一個 當事人認罪了啊量刑上他也沒意見啊然後跟被害者的家屬也和解了啊然後呢 被害人家屬也表達說我們不想用國民法官審理啊然後你們的第六條第一項第四款也允許啊你們的法官不准人家不准人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
15881.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
15897.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
回到一般審理耶你們這個個案是這樣你們這條法律定罪是在沒好法律啦條件通通都符合了但法官就不願意為什麼你知道嗎因為跟事務分配有關啊第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
15897.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
15901.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
你這個法官把他交到交到這個國民法官來審理的時候我讓你折抵案件你分案量可以折很少但是你不能中途而廢也不能夠中途停止也不能夠允許被告退出你認罪了然後你呢對這個刑責也沒有意見了和解了他還是不准他退出為什麼你知道嗎因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
15925.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
15950.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
因為要到判決 國民法官審理到判決結束一個成審法官還可以再減10個分案還可以再折抵10個分案 多香多甜啊可不可以給我一點時間跟委員說一下各法院對於事務分配跟審理國民法官案件跟一般案件的折抵進行 每個法院都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
15952.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
15973.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
每個法案的分案方式也不一樣以台中地院為例你說說看平均分案的時候折抵幾件判決的時候折抵幾件完全都不一樣有的從審理你平均啊你不要在這裡顧左右而言我沒辦法比平均因為每個折抵方式完全不一樣以台中地院為例它這幾個分給審判長的我告訴你你不要再告訴我第六條 第一項 第四款這個規定不好的有什麼不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
15980.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16000.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
符合規定你們的法官來硬要人家陪你們完成這個國民法官的審判不行國民法官這是個例外我們不希望由當事人來選擇行國民法官或是不行國民法官所以這由法院來做最終的裁量更個案的裁量來決定你們其實就是要鼓勵要這個國民參審啦這個問題很嚴重耶現在國民法官的問題還不只是這樣子喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16010.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16026.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
現在我問你啦國民法官審理的時候職業法官跟國民法官可以事先閱卷嗎不可以事先閱卷 我們是採取卷證不併送所以卷證不併送 對嘛可是你們的職業法官都已經提早知道卷沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16028.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16042.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
我們還特別在法院組織法第四條之一你們要開庭的時候強制處分庭跟國民法官法庭要把它分開本來審理的法官跟強制處分庭的法官分開沒關係 你現在不要說理論的理論上是這樣子但實際上就不是這樣子為什麼要卷證不並送 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16049.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16061.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
我們就避免偏見跟欲斷對 避免偏見跟欲斷可是法官沒有卷你們在開準備庭程序準備的時候是不是這一個職業法官在開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16062.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16064.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
但是他看不到內容他只有看到證據的一些清單跟名稱而已有 你們在準備庭的時候檢察官會開示證據然後要申請證據調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16079.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16084.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
開示證據是開示給辯護人互相開示這個是證據開示我再問你他要申請證據調查你的職業法官會不會問啊問說啊你這個為什麼要這樣主張否則職業法官怎麼判斷要不要給他看他是根據他的所謂的他主張要申請調查就讓他說明證據的關聯性 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16100.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16104.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
證據的關聯性就會講到案情所以你們預斷先入為主有心證怎麼不會呢他要判斷要不要給國民法官看是職業法官在決定這個職業法官必須在審理時間調查證據之後才把證據提出來交給當場調查證據完畢之後相關的證據才附卷 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16127.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16135.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
檢辯會申請要調查證據法官要裁定要不要提供證據給國民法官看法官要怎麼裁定的標準會問他們為什麼需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16143.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16165.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
對 沒錯為什麼學院就會講到關聯性關聯性跟必要性的調查但是不涉及到裡面的內容關聯性必要性就是資訊你的法官 學院法官就不是空白跟國民法官一樣空白好 為什麼不給國民法官看證據這個要不要給他們看這個事情很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16166.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16179.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
有可能啊 某一個被告他做了四份筆錄有沒有可能檢察官申請 我只看兩份有沒有可能這是慎選證據的結果啊對啊 但是檢察官為什麼慎選證據你知道嗎他可以把不利於被告的 他是檢察官的出證 他可以你常常 我不跟你說 你要聽我說我問題要不說 你在搶著干擾我的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16190.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16218.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
某個被告他做了四份筆錄檢察官有沒有可能把這個不利於這個被告的就申請請求提供要提供這個證據筆錄給這個可能兩份而已給這個國民法官看可是一共有四份他只申請兩份有沒有可能的確有可能那他是不是篩選過的 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16220.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16237.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那職業法官在審理的時候在那裡他要裁釋如果職業法官真的不知道沒有看過卷證他們不知道有幾份嘛他就說好裁定兩份可是事實上有四份四份裡面有可能有利於被告的他可能就沒有申請了 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16240.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16244.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
然後呢 被告你沒有 我上禮拜來這裡審理你沒有 所有被告都簽沒法官 普通法官不該發這種訴訟然後呢 有專報 將近九成都是法服的律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16255.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16280.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
如果檢察官做了四份筆錄只把不利於被告的兩份去申請來看了結果呢法服的律師也剛好沒有看到也不知道事實上有四份筆錄所以他沒有去主張那個被告的辯護人他沒有去主張或是他主張了法官不採其他另外兩份要拿出來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16281.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16299.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
所以送給國民法官看的證據是職業法官裁的他可能知情也有可能是不知情的他裁定了請問只提供兩份這有沒有可能有篩選過了誤導了國民法官了你證據的提供這個是誤導國民法官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16306.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16328.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
然後誣導國民法官以後國民法官看到兩份而已嘛所以他就判了 他就誤判了然後誤判以後 能不能改判來 能不能改判我們國民法官法對於判決有特殊規定喔特別法有特殊規定 什麼規定來 你可以回答了行國民參與審判的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16329.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16345.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
他判決以後有什麼特殊規定如果要上訴有什麼特別規定他會違反論理法則經驗法則之後才可以上訴好 你講對了所以前幾天有報紙說國民法官判決的二審都沒有人推翻 廢話因為這是法律強制規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16349.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16362.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
法律強制規定除了國民法官違背經驗法則或論理法則顯然影響於判決者否則不可以改判 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16364.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16383.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
不可以改判這個91條 國民法官法91條跟92條意思是什麼 除非啦 國民法官喔說兇手是女的 結果你判男的有罪這一種才可以改判啦 否則全部不能改判所以我剛剛講啊 我從程序面來講從程序面來講 你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16388.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16398.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
職業法官在準備程序的時候呢在準備程序的時候不管他到底是不知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16399.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16418.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
也有可能是故意包庇啊或是故意的啊知情的他對於這個申請調查證據的時候他可能知道有四個筆錄但他只提供兩個他也有大部分我寧願相信他不知道有四份筆錄所以檢察官申請兩份的時候他就核定了然後呢在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16424.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16442.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
在這種狀況裡面檢察官一定站在對自己有利未來審判的時候有利於他起訴的這個要件的這個立場去申請調查證據然後辯護律師我來囉辯護律師的問題是什麼法服你們付多少錢法服律師都通常一個案件收多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16444.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16455.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
法輔辯護律師一個案件收多少錢我們北法湖他可以複數的委任他可以最多可以拚到三個法輔律師好啦 多少錢啦一個人是七萬三千塊七萬三千元是七萬四千元明年 明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16460.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16488.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
10年以上的通通都要適用國民法官法大概會有274件我要講這個喔我講這個是知識體大現在的是重大的殺人死亡的這個案件喔可是明年是10年以上會有什麼案件你知道嗎比如說公務員違背職務收賄明年用在國民法官法的這個審理上面你知道貪賭案件卷宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16490.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16512.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
多非常多 比殺人 酒駕撞死人的卷宗還要多百倍也有可能 數十倍 百倍你們付給人家7萬元你相信更多是3萬 5萬而已 法服的律師他們會花多少時間他們能有多少時間收到3萬 5萬 7萬你不要講那個極端可以一次聘3個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16518.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16526.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
然後呢 仔細看 看得很清楚然後呢 他可以充分的為這個被告去辯護 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16528.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16548.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
蛤 所以在這種狀況裡面這個姿勢體大 很嚴重啊上幾審 你在申請調查證據的時候法官都不知道是真的不知道還是假的不知道我們說他是真的不知道了真的不知道這個證據有幾份然後就同意檢察官的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16549.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16568.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
然後呢 影響了國民法官 然後造成了誤判誤判以後 一審以後 還不能夠二審 不能改判一定要遵照國民法官的審判 法律規定不能改判這樣這件事 感到 這樣感到都完全不需要檢討的啊 制度都做完畢都不用檢討啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16573.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
16582.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
跟委員說明一下我們相信檢察官有客觀義務他對被告有利不利的他都要注意你現在不要說這種話 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
16586.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
16610.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
我現在在說的是這個制度你們不覺得這種制度其實應該可以要討論一下嗎你們現在在這裡就直接強力辯護 一路辯護到底你們整個國民法官法 你們的施行細則你們沒有訴訟法 國民法官的訴訟法你們全部定在施行細則 341條多如牛毛而且在裡面都用特別架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
16611.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
16629.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
然後在施行席則裡面然後直接說我排除其他法律的適用這個都已經很荒謬了所以我在講有沒有一種可能啦我幫你們講救濟的方法你不給人家救濟的方法你在制度面執行上真的有可能會有問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
16633.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
16642.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
那你需不需要思考另一種救濟比如說被駁回辯方申請調查的可以上訴到二審 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
16644.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
16666.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
對不對比如說你們的這個證據調查的準備程序的時候呢你還有原來的職業法官去決定要什麼東西給國民法官看什麼東西不要這個過程職業法官不會多多少少都形成新證嗎他絕對不會跟國民法官一樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
16668.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
16693.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
空白的來聽的不會絕對不會你不覺得這種制度在準備程序的時候證據調查的時候有可能你需要配套式讓別組的法官來處理這個準備程序而不是受命要處理這個審理這個個案的法官直接來處理這個準備程序你不覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
16695.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
16719.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
真真正正職業法官跟國民法官同時接觸到這個案子這樣子才是最好的嗎謝謝委員的指教我可以回答嗎就關於剛剛委員所指教的細則三百四十幾條細則有沒有排除相關的刑事訴訟特別規定事實上如果委員有仔細看國民法官第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
16720.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
16730.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
他就寫本條有特別規定除本條有特別規定還是適用刑事訴訟或其他的法律規定所以在上次委員在質詢的時候有關88條你現在算概括性全部一句話全部都排除連訴訟程序連訴訟程序你們都訴訟程序都定在這個私刑細則裡面私刑細則都可以排除母法了不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
16747.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
16750.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
國民法 國民法 國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
16772.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
16790.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
因為大家我想麻煩那個林委員我們今天時間已經超過很多了然後呢明天明天我們正好會繼續開嗎明天而且主要是司法院明天主要就是因為司法院然後我們明天再來對副秘書長也會到明天主要就是司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
16790.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
16793.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
因為今天其實聽講很容易隨便亂講聽了林委員他針對國民法官制度的問題非常嚴重其實本行有觀察到所以我想很多的議題是不是就留待明天然後再來繼續拷問好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
16808.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
16828.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
OK 那也請這個也請廳長那麼剛剛林委員提到的那些建議我們會把那個陳孝平委員會有提到相關問題需要討論的問題那今天都通通提供過來我們把它用書面給委員參考今天通通就都要提供過來了沒問題好 那我們這些問題明天可以繼續討論OK 好 好 謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
16832.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
16850.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
好那接下來蔡議員蔡議員蔡議員蔡議員不在好那麼今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢我們詢答結束那委員質詢時候所要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
16851.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
16865.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
好 那麼委員林楚英和傅坤祺所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並且請相關機關以書面答覆好的 那麼本次會議就到此結束我們現在散會好 謝謝各位 |