| IVOD_ID |
17048 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17048 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-19-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-19T08:35:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-19T11:55:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:19:22 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db0f0f97671e11b2e19fa8a86ff2d6ccbd914d0d15f34b2c024829e8f30c3dac735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣中油股份有限公司董事長及行政院公共工程委員會首長就「中油三接案第二期遭檢舉浮報工程款項爭議」進行報告，並備質詢。
【11月19日及20日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:38 - 11:55:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1507.38 |
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1520.791 |
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好 謝謝我們現在開會請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員10人以組法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1522.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1543.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議事錄時間114年11月10日星期一9時6分至12時35分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員林丹樺等14人列席委員黃國昌等4人列席人員經濟部部長龔明新國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢等 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1543.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1561.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席 陳超紀委員 廷飛報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄 決定 確定討論事項 審查依行政院行情審議 企業併購法 增訂第五章之一章名及第四條之二 第五十二條之一第五十四條調研修正常案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1562.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1580.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
討論事項 合併詢答經濟部部長龔明勳報告後委員林大化等16人提出質詢經由經濟部部長龔明勳國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢等即時答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員蔡易瑜及陳昭明所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1581.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1610.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本會委員另有要求期限者從其鎖定2 本院委員 網美會等20人 委員審發會等17人 委員賴會員等20人 委員賴銳榮等18人 分別擬據企業併購法 部分條文修正草案等事案決議1 增訂第44條之2條文造型證明提案通過2 增訂第5章之1章名造型證明提案通過3 增訂第52條之1條文所有提案均保留 送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1611.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1630.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
第54條條文照行政院提案通過 五通過附帶決議事項六 並按審查文件 領據審查報告提報院會討論 需交由黨團協商並推請陳昭吉委員停飛於院會討論時做補充說明主席宣告 審查通過這條文相關法制用以授權主席及議事人員整理 散會 宣讀完畢好我們現在繼續進行報告事項 請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1638.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1663.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
報告事項 邀請經濟部部長率台灣中油股份眼線公司董事長及行政院公共工程委員會首長就中油三接案第二期遭檢舉浮爆工程款工程款項爭議進行報告並被質詢 宣讀完畢好 那麼我們首先來介紹在場的委員以及列席的機關首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1666.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1693.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那我們經濟部部長 工部長 謝謝能源署署長 理署長 謝謝產業園區管理局 楊局長接下來台灣中油股份有限公司 方董事長 謝謝接下來台灣電力股份有限公司 蔡副總經理 謝謝台灣自來水公司 蕭副總經理 謝謝台灣糖業股份有限公司 蕭 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1695.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1715.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
蕭副總經理 謝謝接下來行政院公共工程委員會陳副主任委員 謝謝那麼企劃處謝代理處長以及技術處的張檢任記政 謝謝好 現在我們本日議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1717.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1731.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所排定的是中游三接案第二期遭檢舉福報工程款項爭議進行報告並備質詢案那麼我們首先請工部長請做報告那我們也請中游董事長請做報告先準備謝謝謝謝主席貴委員女士先生那成門貴委員會邀請就 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1747.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1776.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
中油三接案第二期遭检举福报工程款项的争议进行报告那敬请各位委员不吝示教那在110年的5月3号行政院宣布三接外推方案将原来关塘工业港的码头向外推出455公尺以回应凿礁公投避免破坏水下的礁体那兼顾供电稳定以及生态的环保 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1777.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1806.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那110年的12月18號三接遷移大潭角昭的公投並沒有通過那終究就依據相關的要點啟動了三接計畫的修正程序在110年12月21號函報外推方案的修正計畫那包括外推方案追加147.79億元以及非外推因素包括了營建物價的上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1807.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1836.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
新增制程管线操作需求以及间接工程费用等等追加的157.7亿元总统资额由660.12亿调整为965.62亿元总共追加了305.55亿元在110年的12月30号合转行政院行政院在111年3月21号含附同意办理 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1838.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1855.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
三接总投资额奉行政院核定以后,中优集就按三接所有八项工程标案,按照实际需求重新盘点调整计划的分年期程和预算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1857.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1884.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
纳入了112年预算书送到立法院审议其中所列的111年分年的预算是120.3亿跟立法院已经审议通过的总有110年度的预算书还有当时正在审议的111年预算书所名列的111年预算书基本上是一样的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1885.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1911.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
原以三接所有的工程111年所需要的經費呢既可以在120.3億裡面來做支應那中游在111年的7月決標了關塘接收站外推方案之外擴防波堤新建的工程的標案以下簡稱本案那中游三接計劃總預算還有分年的計算均 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1912.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1920.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
充分揭露於預算書並且循預算的程序送立法院審議通過並沒有規避立法院的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1922.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1946.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那本部也就是经济部所属的事业新办重大的工程建设那为了确保工程的专业性效率跟品质那么可以依政府采购法的相关规定委托厂商提供技术服务包括了跟技术有关的可行性研究规划设计建造还有专案管理等等那本案 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1947.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1968.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
中游系根据上街的这些政府采购法的相关的程序跟规定选定了国内知名而且具有海事工程专业技术丰富经验的台湾世纪工程顾问公司办理相关的设计预算以及招标的文件编列 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1969.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1992.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那麼按照政府採購法的相關規定本部所屬的事業辦理相關的工程採購在採購公告前都應該辦理公開的閱覽程序公開化跟透明化藉由公開徵求廠商或民眾的意見以提升公共工程的規劃的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1994.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2021.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那麼也可以反映公眾的意見以後完成招標的文件的編訂那於公告前呢依照政府採購法所成立的這個採購的評選委員會審定招標文件中的評選項目還有評選標準還有評定方法之後才能夠辦理正式的公告那中油本次的這個採購的程序都按照上街的這個政府採購法的相關的這個規定來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2023.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2051.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那过程当中并没有任何的厂商像中油或者是行政院公共工程委员会提出异议来申诉那这个本案在113年之后经济部就有接获了这个检举那经过了中油公司的相关的政风调查并没有发现什么样的不法情势那这一次媒体所称有录音档的新的事证那本部会再启动行政调查 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2051.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2068.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
也會全力的配合檢調進行查證 以上報告敬請自教好謝謝工部長的報告 謝謝那我們現在好那我們現在繼續請中油公司方董事長做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2079.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2105.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主席各位委員大家早那麼今天承蒙郭委員會的邀請就中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程館向著爭議來進行專案報告那麼進行各位委員不吝賜教那麼首先在福報工程館爭議的部分這個計畫中油公司是配合台電大潭電廠的新增機組用氣的一個需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2106.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2111.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
而辦理的這個所謂的第三座液化天然氣接觸站的投資計畫那麼這個計畫呢 向下呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2113.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2136.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
是主体工程标案总共有五项投资金额是660亿元那么这个行政院是在110年宣布了外推方案之后关塘工业港向外海移了455公尺所以需要新增三项的主体工程标案 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2136.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2147.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
包括了就是今天所提到的外扩防波堤新建工程以及站橋延伸段工程還有製程設備及管線工程那麼投資總額調整為965億 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2151.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2177.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那么这个计划在111年3月21号奉行合定那么所合定增加的305亿元是分配到113年到118年的分年预算去调整并且这整个投资计划在112年度的预算书有送到立法院来审议所以相关的程序都是依照规定来办理 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2179.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2196.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那么至于媒体所报道所谓第三接收站的二期啊所指的就是外扩防波堤新建工程那么以下呢就这项工程我就称为本案那么这个三接呢呃这个计划呢原来规划的防波堤工程呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2196.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2224.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是由建港及微堤造地的一個標案來執行所以在原環評核准的範圍內沒有調整的部分持續在這個案子裡面持續施作但是因為受外推方案影響而必須重新調整所設計的防波堤需要等待外推方案的環差通過以後才能施作也就是這個案子本案來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2225.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2246.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那么原来的建港围堤造地工程呢它的长度呢是3350亿公尺施作的水深呢是在15公尺以内沉箱基础抛石料呢大概是60万方那么这个案子的工程项目呢它防坡堤的长度呢是比较长是4116公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2249.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2260.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那麼當然還有其他的設施那麼施作的水深是在-20公尺到-29公尺之間沉箱的飼料拋放數量是160萬方那麼人機的料的運補是比較困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2266.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2292.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那麼施工的水域也比較深施工難度比較高那麼這兩個案子它的施工內容跟工程量體還有施工難度等等是不同的所以不能夠把這兩項的工程成本去做比部援引那麼接下來說明預算編列的過程那麼這個案子是委託台灣世西來辦理設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2294.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2322.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
预算编列以及招标文件的制作那么依据台湾世锡的说明呢工程细部设计完成以后呢台湾世锡是以本案所使用的大宗物料项目预估数量与施作的场域呢经过它内部的核算加总以后呢提出了本案的预算是238.4亿那么这个预算呢就交由中油公司呢在111年的1月12号呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2324.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2350.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
来办理公开阅览的一个程序那么经过公开阅览期间呢厂商所提的一些市移单那么台湾世锡呢也向国内的三家厂商来去询价这个询价里面有三家厂商呢包括了东坯公司的256.5亿洪华公司的239.6亿黄昌范雅团队提供的是269亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2352.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2367.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那麼經過綜合評斷以後台灣司機提供給中油公司的預算金額是253億那麼中油公司就審核台灣司機所編列的各項目的必要性以及估算費用的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2368.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2392.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
并且就这个预算里面比较大宗的物资像提薪石、块石、结头块等大宗物料来进行比和减兑那我们认为呢台湾司机所提报的预算上述合理那么近日被媒体报导呢中原公司也立即的调阅相关的请购跟采购的文件经再三的确认呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2392.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2410.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
本案工程预算编列的过程中并没有媒体报道百亿暴增至253亿元变动四次的一个情形那么接下来在请采购的程序本案是采公开招标是用最有类标的方式来办理 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2411.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2428.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
在111年4月29號第一次公告公告的預算就是253億那麼第一次開標是沒有滿三家而留標接下來在6月29號辦理了第二次的公告預算也是沒有改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2429.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2454.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那么在7月8号第二次开标也既有两家来投标分别是东批公司的投标价是252.7亿黄昌范雅团队的投标价是253.05亿那么后续的评选委员会评定黄昌范雅团队是最优胜的厂商而于在7月29号决标最后做个结语 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2455.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2475.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那這本案是委託國內知名的海事專業廠商台灣世西來辦理那麼向中油公司提出的建議預算238.4億後來經過公開閱覽以及向國內廠商的一個詢價經過中整評估以後提出來的招標預算是253億元那麼經過中油公司比對檢核這個預算是合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2480.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2509.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那麼本案中油公司呢是依照政府採購法來辦理後續的採購程序預算編列的過程中是沒有變動的一個情形那麼至於媒體報導如影檔中涉及中油公司必失情節這個事情呢那麼中油公司會重啟政風的調查作為並將全力配合司法機關來釐清案情對於呢有惡意損害中油公司聲譽的一個行為呢我們會採取適當的法律途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2510.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2513.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那麼以上報告進行各位委員指正 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2522.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2551.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
好 接下來我們確認議事錄請問各位委員剛剛議事組人員所唸的議事錄有沒有意見沒有 我們議事錄確認那有關本次會議各部會所提供的書面報告我們也請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們進行詢答委員詢答前我們依例做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間6分鐘必要時間2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2552.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2559.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那上午10點半截止登記發言首先要請登記第一位的林黛嬅委員請發言有請部長我們請工部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2571.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2600 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
林委員長本席認為現在國氣國運這個議題經濟部跟中油目前的進度本席表達不滿沒有國氣國運就沒有能源國安台灣天然氣供應鏈的戰略缺口今天來就叫我們經濟部下面 他不能動主席 這個不能動給我 好 我們下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2602.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2632.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
没有国际国运就没有人员国安今天不谈商业投资而是谈国家安全台湾的天然气预计在五年后2030年能源转型配比高达50%一旦任何一座的接收站延误任何一条运输线的中断我国的电力民生乃至国防将在一天之内就陷入风险目前行政院跟经济部口中推动已久的国际国运没有人没有船你训练了546位的船员 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2633.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2661.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
真正登船实习的不到30人留任的也只有18人更关键的是台湾仍然没有任何一艘国籍LNG运输船其实我直接讲重点就是中游你根本还没有开出FOB的订单当然就不可能有业者或者是国家或者是我们的这个扬名海运去投入我们国籍船的LNG的运输船 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2662.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2679.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好那在福建靠城均南海緊張局勢升溫的當下沒有國籍船沒有船員沒有長約也意味著我國人員安全每天都暴露了這個多暴露了一天請部長你具體說明這三件事情第一個國氣國運的落實時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2681.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2709.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
第二个第一艘国际LNG船的建造进度第三交通部与中油是否已研议将LNG运输纳入国安航运的体系请回答基本上经济部的态度是支持委员的提案那上礼拜我们国民司司长也找了这个交通部有做一些讨论详细状况我是不是请司长跟委员做一个说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2710.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2735.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
就是陳鵬那個委員一直在關切這個事情上禮拜我有請交通部來討論一下那現在目前大概交通部有一個之前就是有訂一個方案出來那這方案目前來看要建造LNG國籍的LNG大概現在船公司因為沒有這個訂單也沒有太大的意願所以剛開始規劃的時候如果中油將來有了FOB的這個訂單以後會規劃先用全一輪來大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2736.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2763.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
运大概5到10年的时间然后在这段期间如果订单多了那才会有去推动国际LNG的建造那你对船员呢船员就是因为现在看起来我们只有就是中游自己可以去比较能够掌控的大概就是有4艘的4艘的那是本来就有的对对对那我们会那个上个礼拜也跟交通部在讲说我们会在协调中游看是不是能够把实习的名额好加大 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2763.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2791.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因为现在大概航港局的地方已经有将近540几位的船员已经是受过训了但是没有实习的机会留任者才18个跟实习的不到30个可是因为我们现在自己能够大概只有好 那钟友请你回答你的这个第一艘国际LNG船的建造进度其实关系到你的FOB的第一张长约在哪里目前我们新购的合约都会跟供应商提出我们要买FOB的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2793.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2796.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
當然會不會達成FOB雙方的合約協議的話這需要雙方來去做協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2800.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2829.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以還是沒有進度目前沒有所以這個第一艘國際船就是遙遙無期部長您聽到了所以現在這個地緣政治的這麼樣的一個緊張情況之下而且之前也發生了其實就是因為這個台海緊張的關係我自己的LNG船我們訂的這個LNG船是根本它就不進來那這個國防部也預警我們現在其實國防的人員儲量其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2830.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2848.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
是應該到14天然後呢現在我們的天然氣也只能11天那你以經濟部的立場你也表達你會提升到14天我不曉得這樣的一個訊息你在一個國籍船沒有成行那怎麼會配合你的政府有11天呢常常的這個台海這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2849.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2875.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
中國在那邊的軍艦在那邊繞來繞去你的人員的鍛煉的可能性是相當相當高的而且你的天然氣的佔比是50%還會再增加因為已經不用核能了你的這個再生能源的配比也不到20%所以火力發電更是不可能完全就靠天然氣100%的進口所以我都不曉得你有沒有這種國安思維好 再進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2877.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2893.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好從三接的營運到七接的中樞國安工程是不容切割的那當然近期三接二期的工程你們的報告也很清楚了那當然確實你們也說明沒有這個暴增百億但也證實了工程預算高達253億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2895.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2915.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這也確實是重大的國安工程所以本席也呼籲你們的主張但是我也希望這樣的爭議不應該由媒體來審判那中油跟相關單位趕快的協同調查做到勿枉勿重那人員工程關係到國家安全連結是基礎 不容模糊而在世界動工延後 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2916.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2937.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
北部進氣受限的情況之下七接的重要性就已非地區的議題而是全國戰略的核心所以七接如果若能如期如此的完工每小時可供給1600噸等於全台穩定電力的最後防線這七接就是在高雄啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2938.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2963.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以我很在意這個樣的一個進度它不是 它是一個護國產業它是雖然第二座的接氣站是在高雄永安之外就是在大林埔這邊那這個中油這邊我也很肯定董事長這邊你也很重視那也確實有相關的建制起身我希望是真的是如期如止它穩定的是全台的電力的最後防線了 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2963.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2976.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以也希望經濟部我能夠將希望你們將期間納入人員國安建設我提出來的叫做人員國安建設專案每一項進度每一次檢測都應該以國安的規格來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2980.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3007.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
來看待那另外呢這個冷能到再利用從除氣到除冷的國家戰略冷能是液化天然氣接收過程中產生的副產品弱子輸氣不回收等於把人員直接排進了大海在國際上日本的大阪東京橫濱等都已經講LNG冷能應用於食品加工冷電物流跟材料循環產業高雄七街就具備這樣的相同條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3008.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3027.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以本席建議在七街周邊要規劃人人產業帶結合南興與紅毛港腹地建構人人物流新材料循環經濟與海洋教育展示園區部長這邊的新材料循環園區講了很久了其實他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3029.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3054.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
連紙上作業都沒有就是一個概念而已所以這邊我提點您您接任部長之後我也希望您能夠投入在七街周邊的規劃的人能產業帶那結合南興這個腹地不管南興一起雖然填海遭陸完成現在是荒蕪在那邊的雖然說不是你的議題也不是是港務公司的也是說市政府那也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3054.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3073.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好但是呢這個在產業面當中我覺得您就要有既然冷鏈冷能產業貸這個東西是經濟部在產業當中應該去處理的所以在這個相關的腹地上我也希望你能夠做一些跟產業面的結合那但這不是光光建設而是冷能的負產轉化為產業韌帶是從儲計到儲能的國家戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3080.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3108.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
升級下一頁不要切割問題要縫合戰略經濟部跟中友不要把國氣國運接收站的建設忍忍回收廉政調查分成各自的專案請經濟部經濟安全的思維將目前分散的專案整合為國家安全行動方案這是本席所提出來的經濟安全跟國家安全的行動方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3108.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3130.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那美國的川普跟日本高市長苗都已經在現在就在落實他的經濟安全經濟安全的概念不管美國他在講到他的人員他一定講到他的供應穩定日本他在危機管理他也在講到什麼危機管理投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3131.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3147.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以這個經濟安全是要有國家安全的思維天然氣的的接收不只是關心民生更是國家安全的課題所以我也希望部長今天面對國際情勢的緊張大家這個區域經濟當中大家的一個的緊張性所以你的經濟當中的經濟韌性一個經濟安全的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3155.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3175.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
国家安全的课题希望你在各个产业当中真的知道导入这会是新的一个思维要去注意的在地缘政治高压下每一天的延迟都是人员安全多曝露了一天请行政院跟经济部能够将这些议题统合成国家人员安全行动方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3176.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3199.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
國家人員安全行動方案這三個整合在一塊第一個以國安架構推動國際國運與國籍船的計畫第二個以產業政策延伸人人利用與港灣再生第三以廉政機制確保三階四階七階的預算透明人員的安全不是開會的目的而是國家要命的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3201.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3224.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
部長您針對國家人員安全行動方案本席把它整合為這三個議題那您的看法如何謝委員我覺得是非常好的建議我們也會往這個方向來進行人員安全本來就是國家安全的最重要的一環謝委員的提醒就是說現在接收站我們已經把它列為國家關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3226.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3242.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
但是这个天然气的运输如果更强化它的韧性的话那我们尽量来处理FOB的问题那有关于冷能本来就是它是一个循环在利用重要的资源那我们会善加利用那廉政的机制是一定会做的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3243.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3258.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那部長您這邊的才是那這個中游這邊你就要加把勁你的FOB的如果第一的訂單沒有出來就不可能有國籍船那當然就是沒有國籍船你的國籍的船員更是本席更加期待的國籍的船長 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3260.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3279.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
好 這個船長的自己國際的船長才會配合我們的人員政策啊好 那最後以戰略的決心補上台灣人員的缺口人員國安不是工程也不是商業行為它是一條從海上延伸到產業的生命線只要台灣少一天的國際船少一套人人系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3280.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3290.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
少一份廉政信任我們的人員安全就多一分風險所以在這邊我呼籲行政院也感謝經濟部部長您現在至少從你這邊已經這個重視到這個在國內當中的所謂的經濟安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3296.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3321.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這件事情在今天的質詢當中你確認了這樣的思維也就是說你在各產業推動的當中你的經濟韌性 經濟安全今天在這個質詢當中也確定了這樣的一個方向所以在這邊也希望大家以戰略決心補上台灣人員的圈口高雄的未來不在海岸的盡頭而在人員安全的起點好 謝謝謝謝主席 以上好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3324.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3341.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
接下来我们请邱映文委员请做询答谢谢主席我请一下部长我们再请龚部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3348.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3363.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
部長早部長我想在進入今天的主題之前有一個是攸關民生的部分想要就教於經濟部非洲豬瘟造成台灣的巨大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3364.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3383.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那我們經濟部現在有一個豬肉攤商防疫損失的補助每一攤會補助三萬塊但是現在有一個問題來了就是在我想這個應該不只高雄市啦全台灣有很多偏鄉的地區其實有一些豬肉的攤商他不是在市場內擺攤 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3384.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3403.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
他是在自己家裡騎樓或者是街邊以個體戶的方式去販售豬肉他不是設攤在傳統的市場之內喔那部長我要請教像這樣的狀態他能不能被補助來這是我到這是在美濃的街上我隨便就可以拍了好幾攤的豬肉商 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3405.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3432.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
他們就是在自家的門口或者是在騎樓或者是在街邊那我去詢問過高雄市政府高雄市政府一開始他有點害怕因為經濟部頒訂的標準裡頭並沒有給他們一個完整的規範所以他認為高雄市政府很怕他如果現在把它造冊了之後審計單位是不認帳的所以我想要請教一下經濟部如果依照這樣子的一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3434.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3462.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
經濟部認不認那地方能不能現在開始去放寬或者是怎麼樣去認列這一些不在傳統市場裡頭的又或者是有一些是在批發市場裡面的豬肉零售商它其實也不在原來的規定的範圍之內這些能不能認列那地方政府應該怎麼做可不可以請經濟部回答一下報告委員因為這一次的非洲豬瘟的案件因為它是全面進行全台灣的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3463.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3488.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以针对这个生鲜猪肉我们禁止他运送宰杀跟贩卖那实际上就是造成从业人员他的一些损失跟损伤所以重点在于这些人员的认定他有没有受到损伤损失不在于说是不是在市场里面所以我们这一次就从宽认定只要你有真的有贩卖的营业事实那你有受到损失那我们就补助你 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3489.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3507.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那他提供什麼一些資料真的有販賣的事實比如說像這些照片佐證啊還是說他要有一些買跟批發買賣豬肉的這些收據不是這個就是我們尊重地方政府他來認定因為他比較清楚因為他在地嘛他很清楚這個豬肉攤他到底過去有沒有在營業嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3508.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3523.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
只要他認定了我們就認定就沒有問題如果是這樣的話我想可能也要請經濟部通函或者是讓各縣市政府很清楚的知道我們的認定標準不會只有在傳統市場之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3525.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3541.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
比如說像這一些偏鄉的街邊的在自己自家騎樓的這一些豬肉攤商受到影響的我們一律都是可以認列可以造冊讓地方政府趕快下去做這一些這一方面的協助可以嗎這個部分是不是能夠請經濟部今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3542.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3570.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
之前我們已經有發新聞稿那我們可以再發沒有問題你的新聞稿可能寫得不清不楚所以我看不只高雄市政府應該還有其他的地方他們其實對於這個列管造冊其實是有一些疑慮到底應該怎麼做這個我想要請部長我們跟高雄市政府有溝通了他們也理解了所以就儘快來做這個可能要請基金部儘快部長那我要接下來要請教這個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3572.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3590.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
重大的時事議題這個這兩天大概討論非常多包括這個就是有關於台積電的前資深副總是不是帶走了先進製程這些資料那我看昨天媒體有請教經濟部您的回答是說這個應該由台積電來 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3593.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3619.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
回應嘛部長我要請教就這件事情上面其實他牽扯到的是整個他有可能會涉及到國安法這是國家先進製程這個是非常核心的這些製程站在國家的立場上面站在經濟部的立場上面部長您對這件事情的看法是什麼你對這件事情的初步了解是什麼能不能在這裡跟大家說明一下跟本席說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3619.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3634.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
是 报告委员这个有三个层面来探讨第一个就是您刚才提到的国家安全层次的问题第二个层次就是整体的产业利益的问题第三个才是个别企业它的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3635.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3663.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那就国安城市来讲的话我们要确定就是说这件事情是不是有危害到国家的利益跟安全那现在您看到了这个高检署已经开始在调查那我想我们经济部会配合他调查因为什么样的这个核心技术这个是我们定的那我们会充分的跟高检署来做说明那当然什么样的资料被带走这个要由台积电他来认定 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3663.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3681.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那我們來認定說這個被帶走的這些相關技術是不是符合國家關鍵的技術那這個我們可以充分的負責說明所以台積電的部分跟經濟部這邊做接觸了嗎就到底他被帶走的資料或者是說認定上哪一些關鍵基礎的這個是屬於核心資料的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3687.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3705.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
你們有進一步的做溝通進一步做討論了嗎就這件事情上面我們有請同仁去了解啦但是就是說到底被帶走什麼樣的資訊我想這個是屬於台積電他的營業秘密啦這個我們不好替他說明如果他說明了也要由他來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3705.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3728.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那我们就讲说企业端的它的相关的是不是符合行业秘密我们也会跟这些公司来做合作他如果需要我们协助提出这个营业秘密的诉讼的话那我们也协助他那至于第三个层次就是整体产业利益的部分那我们会持续的关注这个议题会不会影响到我们整个 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3729.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3751.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
半導體的供應鏈的影響或衝擊或者是對於這些客戶會不會有所影響我們會持續的關注我想這件事情應該也要把它列為經濟部現在現階段一個很重要的關心的議題這個關乎到國內的所有的這些半導體產業的發展這個不只是台積電的有可能面臨到它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3752.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3773.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
核心基础的这些资讯被窃这个关乎到整个半导体的产业链的基础发展对于国家整体的经济发展是非常重要的所以我要请经济部要密切的而且要百分之百能够掌握这一些进度这个能够做得到吗我们会持续地关注这个议题好 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3774.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3788.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那接下來我要請教這個主席今天排定的這個議題三接的這個到底這個預算是不是真的如媒體的爆料要求說你們加價啦 增加一點啦到底這個預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3791.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3808.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
從94 暴增到最後的253大家看到這個帳面數字都會覺得中油真的這麼有錢這工程真的可以這樣亂編但是我剛剛看中油的這些報告裡頭其實並沒有很清楚的寫出比如說你的預算要從94億增加到253億 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3810.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3821.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
你勢必要經過很多內部公司的討論你的變更計畫包括變更的預算規劃這個應該是公司內部都要經過很多次的討論跟很多次的這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3823.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3840.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
會議嘛 對不對那這一些會議有沒有可能在不涉及你們內部的機密的狀態之下能夠讓外界甚或是讓立法院很清楚的知道在你們整體的決策過程裡頭到底是怎麼樣處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3841.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3865.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我還沒有看到中郵很完整的去說明這一段那如果持續的被有心人士這樣操作的話那檢調的調查司法的調查還沒有完整以前其實中郵就已經被判了未審先判就被已經判定有罪了中郵能不能去就這一點去做更完整的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3865.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3884.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有沒有可能 董事長報告員就是在我的書面報告裡面已經有提到了我們這個案子是委託台灣世西去做預算編列設計以及預算編列所以對公司而言我們收到的第一板就是238.4億 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3886.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3893.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
沒有出現過94億、120億、150億這些數字從來沒有也就是從238.4億之後依照採購法來去辦理相關的程序最後預算的決定是253億那你們這個有針對這樣的報導去提出反駁嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3908.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3927.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
沒有 只有在立法院報告的時候有提到這一部分所以包括媒體這樣的報導從94億到122億到253億您現在提出來說世西提出的第一版的預算編列世西顧問公司在規劃的時候是你說多少 293億啊238億到最後定案的是253億那這個過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3937.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3947.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我認為應該要再對外界做更清楚的說明是 事實上我們也已經對外做了一個說明新聞稿也做這樣一個同樣的這樣一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3950.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3977.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這個事情現在應該檢調也開始介入調查嘛所以有一些相關的資料你們應該要提供給檢調的或者是說中油在內部對於整個這個預算的編定整個工程的計畫其實中油應該如果有機會的話其實還是要對外示意啦否則你讓有心人一直不斷的醜話一直不斷的抹黑 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3978.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4001.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這是我剛剛所講的那到底有沒有這樣的公安疑雲有沒有這樣的所謂的錄音疑雲有沒有這樣的預算膨脹我覺得這個對於國人來講其實是非常關心的三接的工程這個預算到底是怎麼編列世西當時的估算是什麼世西也可以出來講清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4002.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4023.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
對不對你要讓大家知道你這個工程是要怎麼做為什麼會變成這麼多錢即使世新原來規劃是238億到你後來最終決定的是253億這個中間還是有個十幾億的落差嘛那這個十幾億的落差是怎麼來的我覺得你們還是要對外能夠說明清楚好不好好 謝謝來 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4030.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4054.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢談召委 主席有請部長還有中油公司董事長好 我們請兩位 謝謝行政院公共工程委員會副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4057.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4069.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好 大家好好 辛苦了我們看這個今天中油公司的報告這個五項主體工程標案這個投資金額660億元108年9月16號奉行政院核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4078.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4106.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
接著行政院在110年宣布也就是110年5月3號宣布這個三接外推的方案請問一下這個當初是經濟部提報的嗎行政院不可能直接宣布啊是行政院是經濟部提報還是哪個單位提報給行政院然後宣布 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4109.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4138.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
委員好 是不是由我來說明好 你說就是我想委員提問的就是三推外推這個方案經由什麼樣一個程序把它實體化大概應該是這個問題當然這個外推方案的話是必須到中原公司跟顧問公司以及跟部院這邊的話要做一個充分的一個溝通討論所以是你們提報的嗎是 這個也要寫清楚不然的話全部責任都在行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4139.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4162.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好 這個整個新增三項的主體工程投資金額調整為965億元111年3月21日奉行政院核定當然你們是報上期核定核定增加305億元然後納入112年度預算書送立法院審議好 我們看這個接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4163.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4192.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
你們特別強調這個委託國內知名的海事專業廠商台灣世襲工程顧問公司這個公司過去是中華顧問公司我所了解的然後常常會碰到他們的都是鐵路公路橋樑所以不要特別如果你Google我也Google海事 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4193.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4220.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
公司沒有他們所以這個部分不要把它捧得那麼高也請這個董事長請這個提供台灣世襲公司在這個案之前他們做過哪些海事的好不好我們給我參考說不定他真的是很有名至少我所知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4221.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4246.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
常常會碰到他們的都是在鐵路、橋樑、公路各方面包括以前的中華公務公司的時候我有的是30年公務員也是常常碰到他們的好這是一個部分然後這個剛有提到了這個現在就請教公共工程委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4249.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4277.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
當然要看他的標案他委託這個台灣世襲然後台灣世襲一體專業評估然後這個向國內的三家廠商詢價這是在公文工程的作業裡面是有這樣的程序是吧報告委員這個大概就是一般工程慣例大概都是這樣的一個程序在走 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4278.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4304.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
好這個就是一個當然我們也可以說因為就缺乏這方面專業啊就可能就這樣說了因為各位報因為那個專業團隊他設計出來有時候要看國內市場的這一些營造廠他們的經驗互相查因為就是就是新的嗎沒辦法就只有這幾家可以問啊也沒有別的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4308.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4324.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這個我要談的就是說這個111年3月9號董事會中油公司董事會審議通過剛才有提到這個預算是112年度的預算董事長是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4326.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4335.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個所需要增加的預算305億我們是把它編在103年到108年去分配113年到118年去分別納入進去預算編列是112年度增加的305億對啊112年度預算編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4346.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4369.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
对 把它在112年的预算书里面有去呈现你一直讲113的话你一直讲113又差了两年了112年度的预算都还没有审查然后就招标了就招标了111年7月29号结标所以这个113又差得更远了所以这个部分这个都是一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4372.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4396.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
表示中油的預算國營事業的預算那個設計到整體就是可以這個動用吸用就是111年那麼行政院通過這東西所需要增加的是三個工程案那麼以及要增加的預算我們都按照預算程序來去編列那麼在111年還沒通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4400.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4411.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
在111年跟112年我們核定的這個預算數呢針對這三項新增工程是不會去通知到這個預算不要再強辯了反正這個都是要檢討的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4413.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4439.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我也沒有說你一定有責任反正就是要檢討今天就是檢討112年度的預算按照立法院按照法律的規定是8月112年度的預算是在111年8月31號以前送到立法院行政院通常都是在8月中旬左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4440.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4467.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
完成審議然後送到立法院所以那時候還沒有啊111年7月29號結標就還沒有嘛所以這個都是要去檢討的部分好不好那就接下來這個部長留下來就好其他就回座這個部長就談另外一個議題這個馬太安溪淹涉浮所造成這麼重大的災害 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4469.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4492.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
結果很遺憾的在今年的11月10號望榮鄉明麗村跟鳳林鎮的長橋嶺又受到重大的災害這個就是一流點這個部長我其實我不知道你的想法我自己就很自責 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4494.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4520.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
因為在這個一個多月的時間部長我都碰過你好幾次 最起碼兩三次了光復鄉那邊的堤防我去看看了三次然後我也去這個下游的那個直沖的那個地方我也去了也到了建英橋前面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4522.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4550.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個鳳林三星也到了鳳林鎮這個高堤房那邊也去了我就想說大家都會有那個舒服啦我也認為我有舒服我沒有我本來也想去往望龍鄉那個就這個一流點的地方我想說那麼大的潰壩的時候9月22號那麼大的潰壩的時候都沒有怎麼樣這裡應該OK大概大家都這樣想 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4552.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4570.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以这个部分大家都要真的是要去要去非常非常的谨慎的前面的去检视好不好因为这里面时间的关系其实很重要的因为上面的源头 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4572.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4600.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
霸体还没有解决是所以你现在是最重要的最重要的就是水利署经济部因为河床的疏浚堤防的修筑修固加高加固对都非常非常的重要然后以现在的那个霸体吸水量如果在台风的时候或者是地震的时候是不是就可以阻挡就不要一天到晚 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4602.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4624.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
一天到晚要撤離啊 撤離啊鄉民也是很煩啊但是又為了安全啊所以你們現在是重中之重 好不好好 謝謝謝謝鄭委員接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢答請那個鄭委員來一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4638.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4643.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
謝謝主席我想請工部長我們再請工部長張偉豪部長長我想知道你認識這個羅維仁嗎有見過面有見過面那你有跟他深談過嗎有交換過什麼意見嗎就是我以前當 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4667.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4674.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那個台積電董事的時候當然有做過一些說明那你認為這個人的人品如何你客觀判斷當初覺得還不錯當初覺得還不錯那現在是不是覺得判斷錯誤了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4686.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4707.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
就是說有點意料之外意料之外吧真的就是大家都難以想像說台積電的資深副總而且是掌管研發的資深副總在卸任之後馬上可以到對家去上班完全沒有禁業禁止然後也沒有旋轉門條款你覺得這個合理嗎因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4712.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4727.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
理論上競業晉職他要簽署啦事實上之前要簽署啦是那這個是說他不能到其他地方去任職而且他還是公園院的院士耶然後他在離職之前印了二十幾箱有關於這個二奈米的先進製程什麼A7 A10全部資料都印走了你覺得這是妥當的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4741.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4768.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這個實際上到底運走了什麼可能要由台積電比較清楚說明是 但是本席今天在這裡要提醒部長台積電大家都說是我們的護國神山結果我們護國神山就從裡面大家都中空把它挖走所以希望部長一定要能夠關心這個案子希望未來不要再發生這個類似的情形如果假設別人說他也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4769.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4785.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
別人也覺得我也可以呀 是不是所以高檢署已經啟動了是不是違反國安法的一些調查那我想我們經濟部也會全力來配合那這是屬於國安城市是 當然 至於第二個城市整體產業的影響我們也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4787.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4793.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
看看這個持續的關注他有沒有會造成利害所以這一點我也希望說部長喔不是只有關心這個個案而是要怎麼樣保護整個產業你要能夠提出一些可能規範讓這個產業是有規範的否則大家都覺得他可以我也可以哇那他這樣子出去薪水又更高搞不好那資料還賣錢對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4814.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4825.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我在這裡提醒部長接下來我想要請教部長包括還有中郵董事長現在三接的弊案國人相當關心我們請中郵董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4827.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4855.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那2021年為了這個行政院宣布說為了保護生態環境那三接必須要外推455公尺的時候那個時候行政院說這個工程需要增加150億那當時規劃的總經費是多少部長或董事長知道嗎是當時所講的工程經費增加150億那是就外推的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4856.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4860.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
去做說明但是實際上最後是增加了305億305億我知道所以我就想知道說既然行政院說增加150億就能完成外推那實際總經費從660億變成965億整整多了305億那多出來這一倍的經費305億從150億到305億是多了一倍耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4886.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4912.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那這些錢到底用在哪裡是 因為還有其他的因素譬如說物價的一個調整啊譬如說環境的因素啦或者是說一些間接工程假設工程這些等等的增加董事長我同意就是說但是你這些新增的工程到目前為止本席包括立法院今天的書面報告都沒有這些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4913.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4927.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
應該是說假設照你講的原物料調漲然後什麼樣工程調漲這些應該都要有細項而且應該都是有市價可以就是讓大家公平來評斷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4929.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4952.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那為什麼你不列出來呢你要讓大家覺得它是一個弊案呢如果你把這些事情一項一項細項都列出來提供給各位委員誰還可以說你這個是弊案但是你沒有啊本席已經問了非常多次就說可不可以提供一下這個細項讓我們理解一下到底增加在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4953.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4960.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
中郵沒有提供任何資料甚至今天送到委員會的書面資料有寫說這305億用在哪裡嗎有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4966.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4985.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
沒有仔細交代就是沒有告訴大家說如果假設你的這個增加是經得起考驗的你一項一項列出來就是經得起考驗嘛那我也希望說中油真的不要覺得說可以規避立法院的監督那當初行政院也公開說只會增加150億 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4987.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5002.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
結果增加105億都沒有任何的說明那所以今天我想要請問不只是部長還有董事長就是除了檢調現在在偵辦之外呢中油內部的行政調查什麼時候可以公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5004.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5023.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們行政調查的部分是已經開始了那麼我們是期望能夠盡早完成盡早完成你有一個內部你自己的心理期程嗎我們目標是在12月中把它完成12月中可以完成所以12月中我們應該就會知道你們內部調查的結果是這樣嗎是 我們目標這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5024.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5048.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好 努力那第二個是305億追加的這個經費項目細項什麼時候可以完整的公布呢是不是會後我再補充資料給委員好 麻煩你喔那接下來我想要請問的是大家都今天可能都會非常好奇的到底中油是什麼時候編列這個三接相關預算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5052.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5065.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
包委 您是問是整體的計畫嗎對啊 你什麼時候送到立法院來的最原始的計畫是104年編列的那您指的是說修正計畫這個部分是啊 是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5066.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5073.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我們是在112年的預算書裡面112年的預算書裡面才編的這筆錢112年才通過那你們是什麼時候決標的121年你覺得合理嗎部長部長我這題往你講這樣夠合理他們112年才送到立法院來可是他們121年就已經決標了你覺得合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5095.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5119.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
正常嗎 還是中郵這樣做是正常報告委員 這個行政院部長來 部長你講你覺得這樣比較正常沒有你先講你先講我再讓他講因為這樣喔他111年行政院已經合訂了嘛所以一定會報所以行政院也是只要他合訂就可以做都不用報立法院你覺得這樣合理嗎所以他預算一定會編在112年嘛但是他已經絕標都自己招標了耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5125.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5139.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
因為他的預算的動資沒有超過當初這個所以你的意思就是說他不用送立法院他就可以自行決定他要怎麼花是嗎沒有 立法院一定要核定多少錢的程度內你知道週刊裡面怎麼寫週刊裡面寫說中郵在錄音檔裡面大言不慚的說中郵的錢最多什麼都不欠 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5150.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5152.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
就是這種態度花錢大手大腳而且還不用經立法院把立法院當作橡皮圖章部長你覺得這樣對嗎報告委員我可能要稍微說明一下那個錄音檔周刊講的這個錄音檔是講業者之間的對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5168.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5172.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以跟中油無關是嗎 是這樣子嗎我在講中油的財務狀況2022年虧損2144億2023年虧損169億2024年再虧355億負債比已經高達93% |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5189.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5191.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
2025年上半年再虧159億這當然有因應能源價格穩定民生的責任但是這種花錢的態度這種大手大腳花錢的態度才是中油虧損的主因 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5207.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5216.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那我真的很不能理解說怎麼會一個負債累累的公司早就如果假設是民營企業應該每一塊錢都斤斤計較結果在法務部上個禮拜法務部調查局廉政署的報告裡面都寫得很清楚所有國營事業裡面中油貪賭的案件就是最多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5230.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5245.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以呢這個社會當然會質疑說是不是有亂花錢那這個才是三接必按大家會這麼重視的這麼嚴重的一個地方所以董事長我希望你內部也要整頓啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5246.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5272.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
你是不是內部要整頓一下 部長你也要監督他們呀否則怎麼會連連法務部連這個調查局 連政署都說中油是這個弊案最多 貪賭最多的那也希望說這個部長一定要努力監督他們中油能不能重新獲得社會的信任就看董事長願不願意趕快整頓而且呢內部的行政調查報告也要盡快的公布啊好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5282.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5295.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 谢谢我们接下来请赖瑞荣委员请做询答好 谢谢新工部长我们再请经济部工部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5299.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5327.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好 部長我先請教一下上次我有問過就是普發現金的一萬詐騙非常多現在已經在普發現金當中了那當時有講到要三天內跟整個這些平台業者不管是Meta或者是臉書溝通後來有溝通嗎有成效嗎我要問一下我的同事看看部長要不要回覆一下三個禮拜才質詢過而已現在普發現金是最熱門的一個事件那大家都在領現金 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5328.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5351.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那當時的詐騙的情況我們要求要做處理是有跟書發部做了一些溝通但是詳細情況可是不是允許我會跟那部長這邊有沒有跟部長有沒有跟臉書跟meta這邊做溝通基本上大部分是透過我們都是透過這個我請你們一定要跟直接溝通你們還是透過書發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5353.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5365.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我的意思是說這件事情其實全政府大家都要動起來的事情因為主管機關是數位發展部那個工具在他手上我認為經濟部也有很多的工具可以去做就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5366.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5384.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
要不要裁罰這個是工具裁罰是最後一步但是溝通跟協調絕對是一個前期一個重要的工作我希望部長政府的滿意度要高支持度要高的話就是要讓人民有感那人民其實現在對於詐騙這件事情其實是很不滿的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5385.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5401.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那我認為這件事情每個部會都要動起來啦就是每個部會都要動起來都有影響力也都能夠做得到那只是裁罰是最後不得已手段最後裁罰才是手但是在溝通協調階段很多的就可以達到效果了 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5401.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5424.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我講過就是當我們都看得懂這是個詐騙的時候臉書Meta不可能看不懂他們更有更多的方式可以去阻絕到事情我也希望未來經濟部要持續定住這事情而不是立法委員在上面質詢過後然後你們就放在旁邊然後就說喔這是訴發部的事情交給訴發部喔這是警政署的事情交給警政署我希望未來各部會當立委提出這樣的要求三天內你也答應三天內會跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5426.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5452.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
跟演書Meta做溝通的時候我希望真的看到你們三天內做出了溝通而不是又丟給了訴發部我認為這個是個不好的一個互動方式好 這個我們不知道嗎 請未來要這樣子做那不然你當時就不要承諾我你三天會去溝通那如果你告訴我 我就知道了當初我們是想說因為數位發展部是主管機關我們還是要跟數位發展部共同來部長當重大社會議題的時候我希望各部會都有積極行政的態度啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5453.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5474.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
積極行政這件事情其實會變得很重要詐騙當是全全部人民都很厭惡的時候都很痛恨的時候的時候當經濟部門有更多積極的作為即使你是即使你一個關切的電話告訴Meta跟臉書的台灣的負責的相關人員告訴他們大家關注這一系題立委在 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5476.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5490.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
整個正式立法院委員會正式提出質詢那請你們要重視這個問題你們的技術能力絕對有辦法做到那如果你們一個認真的告訴他們這件事情我相信他們會更認真的做如果他們不認真做這件事情的話那社會給他們的壓力會更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5491.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5520.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好不好我希望未來這件事情是大家全政府是一起動起來我再次提醒啦齁人民很重視關切利益的時候全政府都要動起來跟你有任何相關跟機會方式都要請大家要動起來這樣我們才有辦法讓人民感受到政府在這件事情上的用心跟積極度好不好好 再要請教一下現在有很多的國營事業也被假冒詐騙啦齁我認為這個也要加強宣導啦齁這個包括台電啦包括幾個都有可能被做這個這個是不是請 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5521.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5525.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
不斷的出新聞稿或者是圖卡說明這個不是這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5527.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5550.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個我希望一樣要重視這個就在經濟部轄下的包括各事業單位都現在詐騙手法非常的多翻線速度非常快政府唯有更快的效率去處理的時候才能讓人民很有感的覺得政府在堵住一方面我們加重這些詐騙的對他們的一些刑責一方面加重對他們的一些處罰同時這邊但是只要你沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5551.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5576.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
能堵住的話那既然這樣的事情就不會再發生我還是要強調啦有時候一被詐騙可能就是數百萬上千萬的一個損失那對每個家庭都非常大的一個痛所以我希望這件事情部長要再用我們用更積極的態度去處理啦很多時候我們常有水單電費的各種的都可能會形成他們詐騙的一個工具好不好我們更積極的處理的時候就有機會減少國人被詐騙的機會好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5578.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5604.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
再要請教一下這個現在很多人在打擊綠電綠電其實全世界大家都在推動的我其實認為這個是對台灣是一個長遠來說是一個不利的一個發展方向全世界都在發展綠電但綠電在發展過程中一定有一些不孝業者去透過這個做違法的事情該打就打 該抓就抓 這必然要做的但是如果我們因為這樣而整體的限縮掉了所有的綠電的整體的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5605.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5630.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
这对于台湾是不利的而且全世界现在很多企业都要绿电那对我们来说过度的去把这个绿电完全的堵住的时候对台湾未来的竞争力产生重大影响部长怎么看包括我们也觉得蛮遗憾的因为这个提案是基本上事实上民众党跟国民党都有提案那时候我们表达是说我们愿意用国民党的提案来作为协商的基础 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5630.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5646.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
但是很可惜並沒有被接受還是通過以這個民眾黨的版本那民眾黨版本是我們認為啦是過度嚴格啦部長那我請教行政院跟金門會不會再提出修正的版本出來因為這個綠電長遠來說是國際的趨勢也是我們重要的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5650.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5669.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
如果過頭了的話其實會對我們綠電產生很重大的一些影響經濟部跟行政院會不會再提出修法的一些這個提案回來希望能夠讓綠電但不肖的部分不適合部分當我們做處理但是過頭了這有可能造成我們一定是要打擊非法的來保障合法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5670.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5683.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
至於說要不要提出再修正這個我們來評估看看部長一定要提出來你不提出來的話你都認為這個對於整個台灣的競爭力長遠是發展是負面的是影響的你若不提出來的話那難道你要接受這樣一個狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5685.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5702.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
部長能不能在一個月的時間內提出行政院認為的修法的一個建議讓立法院整體來討論跟思考如果連行政院跟經濟部也都認為這樣的修法是過頭了是傷害到了綠電長遠的發展我希望一個月內提出經濟部的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5703.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5721.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
提出經濟部的版本好嗎我們一個月會評估看看好不好一定要提出來啦因為你不提出來現在已經所有的綠電全部的全部已經很緊繃了嘛大家突然當年大家相信政府台灣要發展綠電的決心所以大家投入進來就發現突然現在一整個完全限縮回來之後那 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5722.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5747.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這些原先信任政府相信政府要發展綠電的人全部會發現那到底政府的態度是什麼我認為應該要一個月內要提出來至少一個月內要提出來至少經濟部要提出你們版本你們的態度我相信你們都很了解也很熟悉了至少提出態度當大家擔憂了問題你們也做了解決但是有些過頭了影響到整個綠電長遠的競爭力的發展要提出你們的版本這樣才能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5748.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5775.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
綠電能夠永續的發展這是全球的一個趨勢我認為經濟部要儘快提出來好嗎可以嗎我們來評估對好再來我來請教一下啦齁這個中油跟台電啦齁公安事故我一直在關切這件事情啦齁其實國營企業的公安事故我自己是老公子弟出生的每一個家庭如果公安發生了之後第一線是最辛苦的因為他可能影響到一個人甚至影響到一個家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5776.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5804.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我希望部長持續的包括董事長幾位董事長持續的重視公安事故這一段時間以來這幾年來中友12件台電29件這個都在增加而每一件的公安事故都是影響到一位工人第一線的工人甚至影響到一個家庭我認為這個都是重大的損傷不只對企業損傷所以我希望這個事件公安事件希望部長跟董事長必須要再重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5805.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5816.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好嗎 好 那也一樣給我一個月內給我一份你們的加強公安的一個檢討報告好嗎 好不好這段時間我確實有注意到這件事情的一個增加好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢談 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5835.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5838.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
謝謝主席 我們請董事長還有部長 謝謝來 請兩位 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5848.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5870.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我想利用今天把这段时间让大家质疑的部分让我们的董事长能够很清楚说明清楚让部长这里了解到底我们要怎么应对因为其实从媒体的报道当中我们一直强调的我们一定要直求对决 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5871.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5892.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
到底我們現在調查到什麼程度到底我們所有的狀況是不是如此我們要講清楚所以我大概有幾個現在在週刊的爭議問題我想我還是比較希望透過你們這樣一問一答把很確定的表達我們現在所了解的狀況第一個問題是他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5896.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5913.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我们施工的过程劳安问题频传造成七个人不幸丧命有这件事吗有这件事情不过这个数字上有点误识应该是六个人六个人那为什么呢这里面有三个案子是发生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5914.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5933.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
第一個案子就是那個沉箱在台北港製作的時候在他遷移到暫存區的過程中由於公安設施的不完整造成這個沉箱傾斜海水灌進去以後沉到海底那我們有做了應該有的處置跟處分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5934.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5951.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
是 事后当然就去检讨这个原因的发生的原因去做了一个适当的一个防务措施对于失职的人员去做一个适当的处置那都有跟这六位不幸上命的劳工有跟他们和解了公司有跟他们和解了吗是是是都有和解了都有都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5951.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5974.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那我们也做了处置对于失职的人员有做了处置是造成这件事情不幸的事情是好那第二个问题他说这个工程内容品质不佳招职是豆腐渣工程那这个部分呢这个部分所指的就是也是那个沉箱的问题那么沉箱同一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5975.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5997.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
这两个案子不同件一个是针对品质一个针对公安对我是说他的工程都是你说的城乡都是同一个工程同一个城乡的工程对那么城乡制作完以后他要移到一个暂存区去放尸在那边去养护那么由于这个每一个城乡他之间的距离不够 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5998.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6012.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以照永浪这边去冲击以后这个城乡互相碰撞而造成破损这是第一个原因是因为它的距离不够所以整个冲击冲撞造成两个城乡 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6013.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6039.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
碰觸而造成他們有破裂的狀況所以並不是所謂的豆腐渣工程並不是說在這個鋼筋混凝土的參混比例上有問題或者是裡面有參一些特殊的東西其他的東西而造成的是因為距離不夠是沉箱的距離不夠然後他沒有計算到整個浪衝擊的狀況而造成兩個沉箱衝擊碰撞對不對是是這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6041.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6067.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那麼第三個問題就是現在每天電視上都會看到的就是說我們是不是有福報預算金額對於整個三接二期的外推工程是不是有福報從原本的我們的94億然後因為我們的高層跟廠商私底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6068.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6093.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
做一個協調而暴增了成為253億然後說還有錄音檔我這個讓大家覺得好像是一齣連續劇一樣那這個問題呢報告委員就這個錄音檔裡面所呈現或者是週刊所報導的事項這個場景實際的場景是怎麼樣不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6094.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6103.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
如果就週刊報導的文字去看這應該就是業者之間在那邊爆料引述說中油公司怎麼樣引述中油公司怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6104.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6126.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這個裡面沒辦法證實這個參與的人有中友公司所以你認為現在說有廠商跟我們高層的這個對話並不是這個樣子應該是廠商的爆料引述是這個樣子對不對所以不是我們所謂的高層跟廠商之間的對話錄音 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6128.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6145.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
不是不是嘛現在所得到的訊息是這個樣子那麼這所謂的94億因為週刊有跑出一個94億這個94億從哪裡來的你有沒有去了解OK那麼但就實質面來看我們當然自己公司內部來檢視這個94億120億150億是從哪裡跑出來的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6151.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6174.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
目前內部的資料是完全沒有顯示這些數字我們得到的第一手台灣司機給我們的報價資料就是238.4億之後經過相關的程序以後最後預算調整到253億那麼之前所提到的那些數字完全在我們公司內部資料沒有呈現 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6175.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6197.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以在我們內部資料從來沒有出現過這94億的這個數字完全沒有因為這個重要的是預算我相信我們都在嚴格把關如果從94億然後沒有經過適當的程序而暴增到253億我也覺得很奇怪你怎麼沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6199.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6229.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
你們還有審查的機制啊這個暴增非常多不是一億兩億說我變更可能我如果變更工程或是我有一些必須要突發的增加我們也有一定的程序這個都有比例的問題啊從94億跳到253億這個一看就不合啊尤其我們這個從過去到現在我們幾乎看了17年的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6230.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6257.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
你要从94亿暴增不论是你是不是国营事业你是不是中游可是你还有一定的我们财政的一个规律没有人敢所以我才会说94亿到底文字有没有这个数字那董事长说是没有没有完全没有所以你们的数字里面从4C给你们的唯有一个叫238亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6260.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6280.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
對沒錯對不對然後最後你們所有調整完之後才跑出一個253億是的對不對在我們的資料裡面就這兩個數字從來沒有所謂的94億從來沒有所以董事長我覺得你們要很清楚的對外坦蕩蕩的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6281.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6290.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
非常清楚就是没有这94亿的数字所以如果有人在引用不实的我们也不排除要 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6292.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6315.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
有法律的途徑因為這個真的把我們中油的這些辛苦的員工大家好像有一個陰影在好像我們私底下在做什麼樣的一個動作其實是沒有的嘛所以如果依照我們前面兩個問題就是六個人的不幸善命還有所謂的工程內容品質這些都是城鄉的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6316.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6344.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那这个部分我们已经处理了已经完成和解了跟当事者六位上面的他的家属有要求我们的厂商跟人家和解吗都有吗都有确定吗确定确定都有确定吗所以都和解完而且也进行了所有相关的惩处对不对好那内容品质部分不是品质的问题是因为距离没有拉好所以这个要处分呢他为什么当时候设计是这个样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6345.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6370.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
但是它並不是豆腐紮工程是因為城鄉的距離不夠 造成這個浪的衝擊趴來趴去 那樣子很恐怖因為我在安南區我看很多我們整個所有海岸線那種衝擊那個是不是你能夠用一般的想法說那有可能 真的有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6371.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6388.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以我們一定要把每一個事情把它分得很清楚對外講清楚不要蒙上這一層陰影而且第三個問題是我們根本從頭到尾就沒有94億這個數字就算4C第一次的資料就是238億然後最後調整完之後還減少變235億 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6395.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6418.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
是不是253億是250增加到253億所以我覺得就是要把它講清楚所以我覺得說今天我們希望透過這個機會讓我們中友公司講清楚一點一點把媒體報導的部分釐清然後如果有人在引用錯誤的我覺得我們還是要輸出法律途徑因為我們已經說明清楚了好 謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6425.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6450.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
陳庭北委員 我們接下來請楊秋英召委 謝謝謝謝主席 本席邀請工部長跟忠祐請工部長跟方董事長召委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6451.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6453.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
是 我想這一段時間大家聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6457.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6483.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
輿論上的一個討論以及媒體的一個報導但是主席市的單位還是在在座兩位所以我們也非常的希望可以得到真正的答案到底是什麼人民要的是真相所以本席要來請教也就是在剛剛的部長您的說明當中跟董事長的說明當中你們說過在2022年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6487.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6510.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
当时发生了这个事情但是有人在113年检举的时候你们也去查了你们认为是查无不法那请问你们当时的查无不法你是查什么人查什么公司查什么内容你所谓的不法到底是什么请做说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6513.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6522.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
是 在113年的檢舉函裡面是那麼裡面所談到有兩個關係人之間的一些行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6523.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6549.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那麼這封檢舉函並沒有署名是誰檢舉所以因此在接到這個檢舉函以後內部就去做調查到底有沒有這樣的一個實際的情形也就是說94變成最後的256裡面提到256在這個公司內部的所有相關的程序書面的資料以及相關的沒有這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6551.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6570.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那麼同時對於主辦的這個單位的人員也進行約談那麼沒有查到這樣一個事實的一個情形過程是這個樣子所以你們所謂的你的查無不法是剛剛董事長所說的那這個有沒有記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6573.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6590.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個在公司內部有記錄而且有呈報到經濟部的證封處那部長那你這個更應該可以公諸於世啊因為大家人民現在最希望的是能夠得到真相啊那像你們說你們113年潮不法那你可以公佈啊可不可以公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6591.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6619.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
可不可以公布問一下政風看看對不對這是公開的嘛所謂的你已經查無不法嘛因為這個羅生門啊我本期不希望讓整個社會啊不斷的在質疑不斷的在質疑喔可不可以公布來請說巴偉因為我剛才問了政風以後他說這個是密件啊但是我們還是會把重要大家所關心的議題對外做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6620.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6642.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個是密件那到底你已經說查無不法那可不可以公佈因為是密件密件你要怎麼樣再公佈你剛剛說你要責重點公佈那你這個邏輯有奇怪沒有 剛剛提到的可公佈就公佈不可公佈就不可公佈我們依法行政 對不對那到底可不可以公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6644.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6668.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
整個報告是不能公布報告不能公布所以現在又有新市政剛剛你們也特別說了新市政你們要重啟政風的調查是不是所以我們再往前推你在整個巡駕跟訪駕中油公司到底做了哪些角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6671.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6688.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個重點是如此啊在你整個案子你必須在未開票以前你要尋家跟訪家那綜合公司你們怎麼樣委託委託之後的結果怎麼樣去做你的流程怎麼樣去拍板定案變成253億這才是重點啊部長這才是人民希望聽到的對這個也會在調查的過程當中在什麼時候調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6697.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6718.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這個是中央公司說這個振豐他們振豐會調查大概12月中之前會報告會提給我們12月中之前大概一個月他的報告會給經濟部所以再請教你們現在所謂的有心事政有心事政那你們要查什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6719.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6746.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
你要查什麼人 你要查什麼公司你要查什麼流程你的訪價 你的這個這個巡駕到底你們會不會朝這樣的方向去查不要再打假球人民不希望如此 希望給說明清楚你會朝本席剛才所說的這個方向嗎所謂這次新市政就是這個錄音檔嘛是新的市政那請問到底有沒有這個錄音檔我沒有聽過 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6749.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6753.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
你沒有聽過但是到底有沒有你一定要重啟針鋒重啟調查部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6756.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6785.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
有沒有這個錄音檔這個也是調查的一環我們當然會調查的一環換句話說有這個錄音檔還不知道這要調查以後才知道部長在國會我們經濟委員會我們希望讓社會不要有質疑所以特別邀請你們來說明董事長告訴我我沒有聽過然後你們說要重啟調查然後我再問你工部長到底有沒有這個錄音檔要調查以後才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6787.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6812.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
現在沒有調查你不是已經告訴我們要在12月中你不是已經啟動了嗎你到底啟動了沒有啟動了什麼時候啟動中油公司在13號的那個委員會國民黨的記者會裡面就提出這樣一個事情從那天開始我們就開始啟動了13號開始啟動嘛是不是對開始啟動那到底有沒有這個錄音檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6815.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6832.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那當時在媒體上面所報的那個總經理是誰因為你已經有方向啊你可以問啊為什麼不趕快去把這個質疑去清楚報導中所講的總經理並沒有講是哪一家公司的總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6833.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6860.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個就是你們要查這個就是你們要查對不對這個也是我們中油公司必須要去了解清楚主旗幟者是你們那到底那個總經理是誰這個就是要查但是說老實話中油公司它本身也沒有調查權我們盡量會請相關的市政的相關人員來協助我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6862.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6884.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那當然檢調是已經在調查了那我們當然所有的資料都會如果檢調有需要的話我們都會稍微檢調你是經濟部長中油是我們國家非常重要的事業單位是出現了這麼樣的一個這麼大的一個衝擊而且連續這三年不斷被質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6885.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6902.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們中油公司自己內部不需要去調查清楚嗎光光已經指明有沒有錄音檔總經理是誰這些都是最容易讓你可以去清清楚楚明明白白了解到底內容是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6905.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6930.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那您現在告訴本席說你們會在12月中旬提出你們的新市政的報告跟社會大眾來說明清楚是不是如此 是是不是如此那這是誰調查是中友內部調查還是政風調查你剛剛又說了2022年的時候你說那個那個你說查無不法 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6931.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6941.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那也是政風調查政風調查你說不能公布耶可是你現在告訴我12月中要公布耶沒有 那個只是對外說明不是把調查報告公布我們會對外說明我們調查的結果對外說明調查的結果所以本席還是人民希望知道到底那個總經理是誰到底有沒有這個錄音檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6958.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6985.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這些都是關鍵啊沒有錯 這個也是我們要了解甚至於這些廠商之間的對話可能他們也只是閒聊或胡說八道也不一定但是我們就是要查本期建議經濟部長你必須要審慎對峙而不是在國會裡頭講一個什麼閒聊講一個這個胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6986.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7002.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因為這已經是三年內讓社會大眾一直質疑一直質疑一個政府沒有辦法給民眾一個明確的方向而且你們已經在13號重啟調查如果你的立場是認為他是胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7004.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7018.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
閒聊 那這個立場是不對的喔不對 是不對的喔因為聳動的聲音告訴我們以前有一部很有名的電影黑金他的台詞是說什麼他說了我們國家很有錢啊如果照媒體報導的這些內容這是非常聳動的一個言語耶部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7030.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7041.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
人民的納稅錢我們公共資源的安全性這是政府必須要有責任去穩定之的是不是市長部長 針對這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7048.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7064.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
人民已經這麼多這麼多的質疑你認為你應該要怎麼處置你的動作你的作為應該要怎麼樣我們還是尊重政風因為政風是一條邊的他們調查他們獨立調查我們盡量可以協助到但是我們不會指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7067.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7096.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
所以本席再次強調因為人民知道希望知道真相本席也再次強調確保整個公共資源以及民眾的生命安全這是非常的重要三接的工程大家是期待很高不管是在公安事件等等大家都勉勵但是不能如此的不清不楚從九十幾億如果照媒體報導九十幾億到一百多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7097.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7121.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
100多億到150億 150億要到253億本席再次強調 在中油的立場你們的自主性非常的高而且你們也必須要能夠掌控整個市場的樣態所以你們的巡價跟訪價這兩點要怎麼樣跟民眾來交代這是非常的重要啊 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7123.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7152.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
循價跟訪價應該是4C吧是4C不是中油4C查出來之後再送給你們嘛你有沒有自主權你有沒有自主權所以本行一再強調你的循價跟訪價當然台灣4C所遞送的這個建議的預算253億的話中油公司當然要去複合要去審核好 就這一句中油公司必須去複合跟審議所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7153.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7176.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
本席就非常希望 就成如部長你所說的下個月中必須要提出給社會大眾說明清楚不要再讓民眾成為不法人士的一個提款機謝謝楊初英召委部長請回 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7184.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7207.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
接下來我們請鄭政權委員請坐診堂謝謝主席想請一下經濟部工部長還有中油董事長 方董事長好 請三位 謝謝兩位 方董事長這位好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7208.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7231.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝主席今天特別安排的中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程款項的爭議的部分剛剛那個張偉這邊一直在問總經理到底是誰我記得方董事長之前在司法法制委員會曾經有提過這個總經理不是你應該是你前任的總經理針對這個部分可不可以請董事長做一個說明因為你剛剛一直閃避也不願意講總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7232.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7247.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
到底是誰可是這個法制其實你有明確講到可不可以請董事長做個說明我當時回應就是說這個錄音檔週刊所報導這個文字呢講的總經理並沒有講是哪一家公司的總經理這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7248.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7268.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那麼第二點就是說就以我個人來講在當時那個階段呢我並不是擔任總經理的職務是擔任副總經理的職務所以你講的是前總經理嗎那其實我在想說前總經理的名字是誰啊我沒有講這個裡面說你講那時間點比對出來啊就說那總經理當時是副總嗎當時總經理不是你啊所以當時總經理是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7271.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7280.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
當時總經理是前董事長李順馨李順馨OK好那我想說因為今天我們在講說中油三接相關的問題其實對我們來說的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7285.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7304.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
福報空城管這東西很重要可是對整個國人來講的時候怎麼樣子讓台灣的能源安全更重要中央為了要降低輸氣跟移運的風險提升儲槽的一個容量並穩定供應國內的一個天然氣從一階一直規劃到了七階經理部長這沒問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7306.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7327.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
一階到七階 我整理得很清楚那我們整個擴增儲存的容量大概總而要到多少 部長你知道嗎我只知道要儲存多少天 安全存量安全存量多少天現在是11天 那將來會到14天什麼時候到14天116年116年要到14天這個地方我簡單來做一個更 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7334.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7362.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
完整的一個說明其實我們目前從一階到七階這邊的時候整個LNG那個儲槽的總容量最多可以到達889萬公柄整個量到889萬公柄到目前為止大概只有165萬公柄目前的儲量就是增建跟新增的部分大概只有165萬公柄針對這個部分那個剛剛部長直接講說儲量現在是11天 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7363.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7387.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
不過因為之前 審計部之前有曾經提到目前的儲量可能不到11天只有10.6天這8月份的時候 就審計部特別提出來的一個數字如果不到11天就是違法的一個狀態所以針對這個部分的時候呢針對這個部分我們經濟部 中油這邊要怎麼樣去符合我們天然氣法的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7388.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7407.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
以目前這樣進度一直裹足不前然後很多的案件我們從一階到七階目前在走的時候呢只有一階跟二階就是現有然後新增的部分我想請教一下兩個問題新增的部分目前有哪幾個地方已經新建完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7409.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7432.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
新增的部分現在其中在是在永安台中以及周濟高雄周濟這三個地方的接收站這現有的啦我說新增的部分新增就在周濟高雄周濟所謂的七街七街完成了嗎建造中建造中很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7433.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7458.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
董事長你把我這整個東西去整個看一下如果說我們這邊有些進度有一些沒有非常跟上的時候你給我們一些指導我目前看起來的時候我說已經興建中的這些都在檯面上面程度不一樣那我說已經興建完成的有哪幾個地方已經興建完成的在第一階就永安嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7459.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7481.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
二階台中 但是本來現有的啦我說新建 新增的部分我這邏輯很清楚嘛現有的是現有的不然現在天然氣不可能發電啦新增的部分從一階到七階當中的時候看起來只有三階的部分 三階兩座除草了兩座OK了嘛 對不對那什麼時候可以投入運營 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7482.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7507.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
已經運營了已經正式在運營了是不是所以新增的部分就這兩座投入運營那我這邊想問一下部分就是說按照現在這情況我們目前只有165萬公秉在新增的兩個部分的時候我們目前占到我們889萬公秉整個量大概是百分之多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7510.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7528.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我是不曉得這個數字是從哪裡來的而且是包含哪些內容但是我相信這裡面有包含了四街的除潮在裡面一街到七街全部都算起來了因為四街是屬於台電的所以我沒辦法去回答直接現在就回答你這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7531.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7546.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那針對這個部分因為我們關心的狀態是整個的一個擴建計畫的一個進度那現在又碰到了這個三接這個第二期招標這個部分碰到一個疑雲的狀態的時候疑似弊案的狀態的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7546.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7561.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們認為他可能會被拖到所以針對這樣的情況我們關心的是整個擴建的計畫跟進度那我想就中油這邊可以掌控的部分整理完之後之後到本辦公室給我們很清楚的一個資料好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7562.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7584.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那我想說針對整個經濟部轄下這個中油這樣子的一個標案的疑雲我這邊要特別提到一個部分就針對台電這個部分也有一個類似的一個情況就是合一合二廠的核子燃料室室內乾式儲存設備這個部分部長知道這個案子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7585.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7610.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我知道215億的那個高額的一個採購案那因為開的是國際標所以兩個廠商兩個廠商都是美國的廠商那目前有一家廠商他們覺得受到不公平的一個對待對台電對台灣來說都是影響到國際的一個形象的一個部分那針對這個部分的時候部長有沒有去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7611.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7621.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
台電這裡面情況到底是怎麼一回事為什麼會讓國際的廠商認為他們受到不公平的對待而且提出申訴我是不是請台電說明一下可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7624.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7650.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
跟委員報告因為廠商提出的已遇台電目前都還在釐清中那剛才有提到說有美國籍的那個中國籍的部分我們有檢視過那個人確實是中國出生但是他已經放棄中國籍什麼時候放棄中國籍這個我們還要再查但他現在確定的是只有一個美國籍而已所以你們不知道他什麼時候放棄中國籍我們不知道但是委員要的更細的可能要回去再提供給委員OK因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7651.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7660.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
美國的廠商就是言舉得非常非常的具體因為他說他取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7661.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7685.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
美國籍的時間跟他擔任這個專案的時間有明顯的一個落差在他當專案的時候已經多次用大陸籍的身份到台灣來而且可能進到我們核能相關的一個設備核能設備就跟國安問題有關如果是這樣的情況完全踩到了目前陸委會設定下來的兩岸關係的紅線 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7687.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7709.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以針對這個部分我們需要很清楚的知道您今天提到說他是美國籍他什麼時候取得美國籍他什麼時候放棄中國籍他過去幾次來台做公務的工作的時候是不是用觀光簽證進來還是如何這個部分是不是都會一起給我們一個交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7711.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7731.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
還是跟委員報告我們會提供那針對涉及國安的關鍵基礎措施台電還是一樣會遵守相關的規定只要是中國企業我們是不同意他的所以這個部分非常非常的具體那我們希望既然是採國際標就希望能夠讓所有的國際的廠商都覺得台灣是一個公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7732.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7759.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
公開去合理招標的一個情況而不會有獨厚特定廠商的一個問題那我想說針對這個部分我們希望部長對於中油跟台電的部分這兩大就是以往被我們國人都認為是優質的一個國營企業可是現在不斷的涉及到一些疑似弊案的問題我們希望部長這邊能夠對中油跟台電的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7760.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7769.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
嚴加監督管理然後也給本辦公室很清楚的一個後續相關的資料好不好謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請謝一鋒委員請做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7789.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7804.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好 謝謝主席我想要請我們公共工程副主委副主委經濟部長工部長還有我們中油的董事長中油董事長 請謝偉豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7809.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7830.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那個我要問他我要問他我想請教一下就公共工程的執掌來講那就這一次中油的這個三接的工程案有沒有違反任何有他的合法性 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7832.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7861.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟委員說明就目前因為我們是從政府採購上面可以公開取得的資料我們有去檢視過就形式上看起來我們沒有發現有什麼特別異常那因為如果依照媒體的這個報導它有可能會被質疑的應該是在巡駕的那個階段那個階段我們目前我們會啟動專案的集合那我們專案集合才有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7862.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7870.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
去看個案的其他非公開的資料所以我們等到專案集合去看了以後才有辦法看看說有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7871.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7893.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那就政府部門而言如果這個採購案沒有任何的違法但是就目前民眾所疑慮的是整個發包的成本它是不是有合理性這個部分我們行政院有沒有相關的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7895.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7923.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
有沒有相關的部門可以來釐清所有工程成本的合理性那如果我們沒有相關的單位可以釐清每一個政府部門公共工程這樣子成本的合理性的時候那過去以及未來我們工程裡面這個成本的控管如何來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7924.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7950.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
跟委員報告當然在行政的流程上面有層層的一個控管包括那是行程控管但是成本合理性的控管呢公共工程有嗎我們有編了一些參考的一些資料因為每個工程的差異性非常大項目也非常多所以我們就是就一些共通性的一些以前結標的這些相關的價格的資料庫每個資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7951.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7977.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那我們還有針對大宗的一些資產啊那麼也提供比較及時的有這兩個資料但是這個是政府的既定政策所以當政府的既定政策一決定以後那所延伸的就是那如果在工程大家認為政府必要必須必須要做的時候那會不會漫天開架會不會造成工程的浪費那 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7978.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8004.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們行政部門怎麼樣子來做監督以及稽查那給予立法部門在審理預算期間相關的資料呢那如果政府部門也沒有相關的管考的措施的時候我們怎麼樣子確定這一次的工程以及給予立法院的預算報告是有合理性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8005.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8021.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
跟委員報告就是說當然這一次的預算到底有沒有浮編這要經過調查啦那麼就整個採購的過程裡面它的一套的設計本來就是要確保這個預算編列的一個合理性 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8022.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8048.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那麼再加上我們審計單位有事後審計的一個制度那就以本工程為例的話因為它涉及到專業性事後審計已經緩不濟急了是不是事後審計已經緩不濟急了審計目前的作業其實也不限於事後審計它可以隨時審計那麼就工程個案因為它涉及到專業性所以我們必須如果說機關本身不具 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8049.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8067.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個專業性他當然必須委託專業機關機構去來評估那麼再根據市場的行情以及相關的這一些關我提到的我們有一些資料庫去綜合比對所以這個東西要經過個案去看看到底有沒有福報是要經過這樣層層的查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8070.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8096.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
國務部長那就這個部分經濟部有沒有折承中油或者是你們經濟部部內就要開始對該項的合約的這樣子成本的合理性你們是不是有做相關的調查你是說事後還是事前現在啊現在有啊你們是不是已經開始在調查什麼時候可以給大家對 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8099.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8120.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
對不起就是剛剛中央公司已經講了就是12月中之前他會把那個調查結果報到我們部裡面來你們調查是對整個發包嗎但是對於這整個工程的合理性因為現在大家在質疑的是不是工程上面有福報嘛那你們看你們福報如果按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8121.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8140.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
週刊所寫的是如實的話但會讓民眾認為你們福報金額這麼大那我們在立法院三一個一億兩億但中油就挨挨叫既然福報金額可能200億300億所以立法院如果三200億300億那有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8142.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8171.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
是不是不是不是如果据我了解我看的那个资料来讲的话事实上世纪公司他有跟上因为一个工程他基本上这个材料多少钱他的施作多少钱事实上他有非常细的那那个东西以后他们当然有工程上他有一些技术性的问题那他综合评估起来以后然后他会报一个价钱给综合公司那综合公司会公开阅览让大家来看 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8171.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8200.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
这个标案这个多少钱那也会去仿价我这个标案情况下的话大致上可以多少那不同的公司以后那司机综合以后他会报一个价钱去给中油中油呢自己再审查一次看合不合理那合理的话那再做成案子报到我们经济部来我们经济部也就会经过审查然后再报到行政院去那行政院呢他会通常会交付给国防会做审查 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8201.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8228.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那國安會會再問相關部會包括公共工程委員會他這樣的案子是不是合理那這樣的情況之下行政人才會核定所以當初是有這樣子一個流程的是不是所有的公共工程都是有這樣的所以當初你們並沒有發現有福報嗎就是按照所以最主要是在中油裡面還是在經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8230.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8253.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
是不是委員我做進一步說明好 你說那麼剛剛部長所報告呢是針對計畫本身整體計畫的部分那會有經過部啦到國發會啦到院去核定這整體的計畫那至於這個計畫要實施以後對於各項的工程那麼所需要編列的預算去公告招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8253.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8273.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那這個部分的話是審核就在公司的董事會核定並沒有報到部裡面去了那剛剛部長也提到就是說講得很清楚因為這個工程它是牽涉到很專業所以對我們公司來講必須要委託專業公司來做這個海事工程的一個評估給我們報價 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8274.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8298.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那这个过程中会经过公开阅览经过厂商询价最后所定出来的提供给我们是253亿的一个预算公司这边接到253亿以后当然会去复核会去审核这里面所编列的项目的合理性那我们审核的结果是认为是合理的所以经过董事会之后才进行后续的采购 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8299.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8320.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好現在民眾最質疑的不是當初你們認為是不是合理的而是到底整體的採購這個發包案到底在成本的合理性上面是不是能夠受公平是不是能夠更有效率的我希望不管是公共工程委員會還是經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8322.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8338.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
應該要責成行政院對於所有工程成本的合理性要進行你們要也許成立一個新的單位或是相關的就是跨部會的小組一定要對這個我認為龔部長你可以提出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8339.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8363.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
报告委员因为公共工程委员因为他本来就有一个什么项目什么样的工程什么样的成本他有一个range让大家可以依循跟参考那你如果超过这个价格显然那会不会是range我是说应该你们要有一个成本合理性行政部会要有一个成本合理性的一个公共工程成本合理性的这样子一个组织啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8364.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8385.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
你才能告訴民眾啊不然你們現在根本大家都在懷疑啊公共會就是這個單位啊扮演這樣的角色我知道我是說他們要召開要來說明啊還有我還有第二個問題喔就是在挪威人這個事件上面喔那我想請問一下喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8387.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8401.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所涉及的因為我們在2022年有修了國家安全法對於商業間諜以及營業秘密外洩有相當就是說程度的規範這個是國家核心關鍵技術項目清單裡面有32項我想要請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8411.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8437.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
羅為仁如果把兩奈米以下的排氣墊的技術帶到英特爾去那這涉及到哪一個技術就是技術清單裡面哪一個項目報告委員就是說的確這些清單它的這些項目是我們經濟部來擬定的那當然經過相關的程序是確定下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8440.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8455.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
但是罗一仁拿走什么样的技术这个应该由台积电来认定我们也会配合高检署的调查来做说明他拿走的相关技术是不是符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8455.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8483.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
委員剛剛提到的這個清單裡面如果符合這個國家核心關鍵技術的項目清單的話那他就就是違反了國家安全法是不是有這樣的疑慮對是不是還是由司法單位來最後的判定那如果他違反了國家安全法的時候我們就要怎麼樣你們會不會要 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8484.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8507.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
起訴你們要這個由司法單位才有辦法做決定對我是說你們是不是要去要提出檢調單位跟司法單位才有辦法做那現在司法單位有做進一步的調查嗎高檢署有開始在調查了所以高檢署進行調查了那台積電還沒確定這個我們就不知道因為這是偵查如果需要我們配合的話我們當然就會配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8507.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8533.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以你們目前還不了解台積電確認這個核心技術外洩的部分是到什麼樣的程度你們不了解這個要由公司來說明比較好那你有瞭解他們評估的進度是如何的嗎什麼進度就是他們要查明這個外洩的進度是說高檢署還是台積電 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8536.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8563.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
因为什么样的秘密泄露出去这个也是属于秘密这个我们还是要尊重台积电对可是我认为你们还是要去了解因为涉及到国家安全的国家安全法的相关规定还有这涉及到现在我们整个就是说半导体要移到美国去的这样子的相关的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8563.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8588.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那民眾對於這個相關的到底關鍵技術有沒有外洩以及能不能留下N-1最核心的技術在台灣這都是我們目前民眾所關心的問題我們請部長回去好好跟台積電溝通了解可以嗎可以可以可以好謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8592.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8617.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
接下来我们请陈昌明委员请做询答 谢谢陈昌明委员陈昌明委员陈昌明委员陈昌明委员陈昌明委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8622.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8641.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
中油三接案第二期招檢舉福報工程的這項爭議那我很簡單講這個案件真的很奇怪為什麼奇怪這要有做過生意的人要有摸過這個行政的人才能曉得你們在108年9月16號是以661億為基層這個三接案但是為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8652.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8663.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
外推的那個提防的話所以在111年3月21日行政院核定900 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8666.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8672.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
965億 增加了305億 這個市值很龐大奇怪的在哪個地方 我叫你找調查的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8687.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8711.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
为什么会在111年7月的时候就结标3月21日核定7月21日结标这个一定有庞大的势力在影响才有这么快我没有看到说国家的失业效率这么好了这个是第一个疑点第二个你们的预算编列在112年到118年 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8715.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8734.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
分作這幾年度的編列沒有關係我們會通過但是這裏面藐視我們立法院的審議權你沒有通過就發包這個是一個一大的疑點所以在這裡面我覺得問題的來源在哪個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8736.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8741.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
寶丁你要聽嗎你四季設計顧問工程公司這來對的是最大的疑點我現在先再來跟你講你們的薪價東振公司226億紅華239.6億黃昌269億 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8761.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8788.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那這裡面就產生了一個問題結標的時候那個東正宮是252.7億那個黃昌253.5億雖然是有立標那紅華做過很多海事工程這一定有人在操作應用啊這個就是在綁標你們要看得出來這個問題在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8790.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8816.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
再来我第三点跟你讲所以在世袭里面他以前都是做铁路公路什么突然做到海边的这一边那黄昌公司以前也没有做什么大的案件他只做了你们第一期的海边的土地那一般都能做外面在传说黄昌企业就是民进党的企业 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8818.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8835.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
世襲公司的董事長你去查一下我看啦 總有的人很老實不敢唯唯作歹也不敢福報價格一定如果有這樣事一定受到某種壓力奇怪不奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8836.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8863.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
三月份核定 七月份結標消費人員會神通廣大 點了這幾點請檢調單位好好查查私信 查房倉還有一個你們幻亞兩個合作的幻亞是國軍退十億官兵的所存在的 為此分析出來看事情 看美感 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8864.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8890.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我們實在講 中油公司都很老實實在連續賠錢 什麼都要承受押令部長 你也當過國外會主委你剛剛講你的流程就看了大概就知道大概這樣的方向 已經不離譜了啊 這個政府真的很奇怪啦務求必勝負啦我這樣把你選擇 你就知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8891.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8915.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
再來我今天要問你對日的問題其實是很嚴重的問題美國川普總統說台灣拖欠他的晶片我們台灣以前的社會做盤子讓他這樣求現在當作他的提款金他說以後美國很快就會恢復世界最大的晶片工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8918.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8942.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你國安會主委你當時怎麼先試鏘了終於就請回座我點了你不要風騷不要怕這裏面我知道中台會運作夠有辦法 沒沒沒人會有事這樣去做他說要變成世界最大的晶片工廠 趕快就會回覆區 回去而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8943.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8963.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他說經濟的安全就是國家的安全你們推了瑞科學研期你們推了生態的那個半導體的那個生態化全部要移過去你這就不會台灣了你以前說台灣最好的基礎解決不會留基礎信誓旦旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8964.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8991.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
你愛主義你一定會講好聽話其實大家已經看出這個問題你台灣算老幾你敵人政治裡面他美國拿過去你台灣算老幾你不曉得霸權主義有多厲害他把台灣當作殖民地你以求以求我講得太聽了你好像要做流亡之舞全部送給美國日本還有最近又發生了兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8992.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9018.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我在執行裡面一直講 日本偷竊二耐米的好 偷竊了 只有檢調單位來調查我現在發覺台灣到處都是日本間諜 美國間諜你怎麼不出聲不知道要不要調查單位 不敢怎麼大肆的搜索你覺得日本退了美國卡的軟爛喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9019.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9044.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
把台灣賣掉你不要講沒有還好不是啟動啦啟動都沒有聲音我一直強調一次啦日本的那個那個REPIT還是什麼那個公司那是國家級的公司偷竊餒你們一天的新聞就沒有了還講沒有台灣當時充滿了日本的經濟間諜美國的經濟間諜要挖台灣的根 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9048.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9075.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
台積電的副總把資料帶過去俄耳奈米日本的俄耳奈米還有S4 S6的奈米及海鷗洪裝的機制全部80箱到英特爾你看美國人多困難你看日本人多辛苦只要你們不台灣做第一流的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9077.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9098.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
你不要把台湾卖光啊我拜托现在的执政政府其实台湾的地理位置很好诶你可以左右红颜左右摇摆为什么你怕时机很快就来了看到这样人家是要拿你台积电所有的签法机制啊不会啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9099.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9128.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
不會 我們也不允許已經在發生了 你們都不會你們都講好聽話沒有啊我從來沒有看過一個官員都說喔 這個擴展實力這個是毀滅台灣聽得進去就好聽不進去也沒有關係反正你讓台灣自生自滅嘛沒有 台灣的半導體最先進的技術最先進的技術最大的量級我還在看這幾個月以前看出來了很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9129.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9152.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
你讓我拿60%拿50%去美國省產我愛省產你不算什麼了你不要洋洋得意有什麼洋洋得意台灣的耕 台灣的土都被你們賣光了 謝謝沒有這樣的事啦好 謝謝接下來我們請柯子豐委員請做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9161.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9167.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
谢谢赵伟我们是请部长还有我们请我们中游的董事长请两位谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9173.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9194.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
各位好部长跟董事长好我想今天不管是从礼拜一的这个司法法制还有我们经济委员会大家都聚焦在有关于中油这个遭检举福报工程的一个争议那我是不是有非常多的厘清也有非常多的反问那我想先请很简单的问一下这个部长你要不要替中油的清白来背书来打包票 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9196.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9216.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
至少到目前我說目前的相關事證來講的話中油公司並沒有不法所以說你目前為止還是相信中油的一個清白我們還是要看你還是會啟動行政調查嗎會我覺得中油說實在的我看一下從歷屆的這個公告的標案當中董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9220.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9230.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
2024-292022-620還有包括629再公告你們主標案預算都是在253億沒錯吧一直都是253億所以說你預算從頭到尾都是253.0513852億 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9234.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9248.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
沒有94億的版本而且是在2020年1月董事會當中呢你也是提出253億那我請問一下從頭到尾都是253億你都不會直接講從頭到尾都沒有變過那所謂的94億到底是出自於哪一份正式文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9250.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9265.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
不知出自何處 內部文件那有沒有任何的部分是出顧五十九十三億是誰人說的啦到底是工程處對口的 口頭的對業者講的還是顧問公司內部的不然你為什麼說都是一致的一個數字啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9266.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9287.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
而且最重要的是 你如果一開始就說我們從2022年董事會通過就是253億你不說 中禮拜物價 指數 房價 相似工程 單價等你都講這些所以你難怪會被質疑到你是不是刻意不提那個早期招標的歷史是不是避重就輕嘛這是你的回應讓大家衍生出更多的問題當主定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9289.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9294.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們在新聞稿呈現的就是講從頭到尾就是2531但是你看有這麼多94億一路過來這個東西指標性你看那個歷屆的一個數字你看941221 150億到22到253沒有這些數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9305.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9333.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以說你從頭到尾就是鎖定253嘛好那這個部分你要做更清楚253從頭到尾不要再去講一些其他的指數什麼什麼的那就額外都是延伸正義啦好不好當鎖定這個很重要啦那我們再來比較一些這個官堂外推的防波體喔你跟印度當然大家會講說這個比數上是差距很大5倍的價值差你當然會告訴我們說兩岸的工法不一樣啦地質波浪施工難度也都不一樣但是5倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9334.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9343.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
同樣是同樣的一個距離卻是五倍的價錢中央在這一點上面除了你告訴我公法跟其他根本做的不一樣你有沒有需要再被澄清的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9344.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9373.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我今天看到委員提出這個案例我們當然會去做比對不過就工程本身來講你在不同的地點不同的環境好 那我就告訴你所以這個部分五倍單位的造價的差距你必須要給我完整我要求每一公尺的造價分析每一座城鄉的單價還有混凝土剛才海事脫工的單價拆解還有完整工程量的計算表麻煩你送一份到我這邊過來我們這邊也有專家可以一一來去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9374.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9388.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
比對可以嗎可以好這個部分是因為在印度的部分裡面這的確是同樣的距離你們的單價區比別人還要高還有這就是剛剛不管是每一個委員都會特別提到的這個大家就提到這個150的為什麼會暴增305億我真的還是要從你們這邊聽出來因為你從頭到尾大家就是在時間軸的問題你2021年5月你就已經把三居預算從660提到9652021你就已經鎖定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9402.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9430.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
2022在這個預算書上面你們還是660億的版本所以難怪人家會說阿得宅壓供2021就知道增加305億那為什麼在2022年的時候你硬要說只增加150305跟150億就會有一個落差明明就知道所以難怪人家會說那你是不是送給我們是660億那你中間的落差你們早就先絕標你這個時間如果沒有講清楚你就還是會被困在這裡我保證從頭到尾大家都只會問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9431.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9452.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那你們的統一的說法是什麼當時講150億是講的跟外推直接相關的部分是150億但是你提修正計畫的時候也要根據當時的一些情境有別的因素一起納進去但是你在2025月的第三次修正計畫就寫965億你當然會知道那怎麼還敢講只有150億呢你那時候就這個落差我再問你這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9458.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9478.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們在112年的預算書啊已經呈現了是 960所以說我覺得這個矛盾點好不好都已經知道增加了那你要強調外推你卻是150你對外說法是所以人家就會說你是計劃未修正不得先決標就是程序跟時間軸的問題你必須要把它釐定清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9479.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9498.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這才是一個重點就一直耗在這個地方部長你說對不對從剛剛到現在就在這數字跟時間使用上你沒有辦法兜在一起所有公司會對外更大的說明就是到965億事實上他所增加預算305億不只是外推而已他還有其他的加進去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9498.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9511.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那你如果知道是305億的話你就不需要不需要再過去一直強調你中間有個落差我還是強調這個部分什麼時候要核定什麼要去做我再告訴你如何把他曾經同樣的問題然後回答同樣問題完全沒有辦法鬥解最後一個主席給我一分鐘時間問到我們永安LNG的這個處長目前到底是如何我覺得這個目前不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9520.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9545.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
三座的地下型的薄墨式的儲槽二四一七不夠 雖然擺成兩座變成二八九然後也獲得同意但是目前為止我們五期這是我們各項 應安是我們各項現在又在流標然後替代方案研究案都是五次公告才絕標那這些都是未來可能會發生的狀況這是我們鄉親大家做玩樂然後我就是最後一個我真的要問永遠都是你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9547.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9567.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
當數定啊 你看原來247億改了28億然後兩座然後到底有沒有同步來調整期程跟預算的目標然後目前都處在高負載那我們五期的延宕會不會造成我們供給的一個風險最重要就是我剛剛所呈現出來預算低估流標補預算再流標計劃再修正時間延宕能源風險提高這個已經變成是我們所有在質詢裡面所有的SOP的前面一張那這部分未來要怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9577.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9601.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
對不對 這哪個 我就把它歸納成都是這個樣子啊這個部分的話 永遠都是 如果這樣子的話都是流標 然後再補預算 再修正 然後你每個人問的都是這個 對不對是 報告委員 我做說明永安五期呢 它關鍵是在於永安五期啊 它的儲槽是地下室的我知道 我知道那麼由於地下室的儲槽呢 現在是沒有市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9602.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9627.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
真正要去做的話他需要一做除潮要花時間非常花的那個金額非常大因此我們希望的是改地上潮地上潮其實鄉親就會非常焦慮你知道地上潮擺在那邊具體的東西擺在那邊大家就很高興所以說我們還要去跟居民去溝通你要好好溝通除潮的部分有延後的部分我們就是在期間週期接受在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9628.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9657.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
你必須要跟居民好好的溝通因為造成非常居民的恐慌但是我還是強調低估流標補預算流標計畫修正這個的部分你可以把它縮短一次就到位否則永遠都是在時間軸在預算在補件永遠都還是會降低了中游對社會觀感還有很大的一個信任度好不好這個是董事長要帶回去這個數字時程一出手精準好不好還是強調你的永安的這個部分還是要跟我們鄉親多溝通好 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9659.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9679.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 謝謝接下來我們請吳宗憲委員請做詢問謝謝主席那我們請部長還有公共工程委員會的副主委好 我們請兩位 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9686.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9710.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
兩位早安我想今天雖然我們的主題是中油三接工程但是我想說因為時間很寶貴那我還是希望說把這個重要的議題我們留在一些重要的事情上面我想其實國家激獻我們宜蘭人15年的蘇澳分紅道的這個問題我想請教一下部長有關這個蘇澳溪的分紅設施到底什麼時候才能動工 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9712.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9739.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我們這個我要check一下但是我們現在已經開始在進行當中已經核定了增加預算也都確定什麼時候動工啊我知道那個程序上上個月就已經跟我講了跟委員報告現在正在做設計我們預計明年度就可以開票為什麼要到明年因為現在目前整個設計階段大概在接近收尾那相關的預算完之後我們還有一些程序新增21億你們怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9742.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9760.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
21億 那院長新核定下來的部分因為對 這會在總工程經費裡面因為它很多的標所以後續會在各標裡面沒有啦 你們院長前幾天才講你有沒有注意到嗎對 就四年一千億嘛 對不對這院長說的嘛那我也是對他這句話其實我一點不滿啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9761.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9777.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我覺得為什麼要再綁到四年一千億因為一千億你到底是要用這二十一億你去卡一千億裡面的什麼東西到時候這一千億如果在野黨認為裡面一千億裡面有一點點有哪個部分編列有問題希望要修改的時候你又說你在卡書號 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9778.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9803.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
蘇俄西的分紅工程嗎這不是就是政府每次都要玩這個東西都是拿一些很重要救命的東西綁到一個大計畫裡面那萬一你對那個計畫裡面哪一個小東西有意見然後他就開始出來講部長我想請問你一下我想這次蘇澳的永春還有永樂兩個里的土石流這個你知道吧那兩個里有發生土石流你知不知道然後蘇澳的市區也水淹到胸部這個你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9805.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9816.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
好 萬一你不知道就算了那我想這個我們原來人用生命用一輩子 住了一輩子的家用這個的事實去質問政府你到底什麼時候才要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9817.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9836.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以上個月上個月22號我在這裡同一個地方也問過水利署長還有部長您兩個點第一個頭城外澳街道接天宮那個淹水達一公尺還有第二個蘇澳溪的分洪設施我那時候質詢這兩個就沒想到不到一個月慘劇就發生那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9837.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9861.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我講喔 你看喔這次蘇澳後來發現有一個人淹死嘛那其實這個分洪道的工程是15年前梅基颱風之後就說要做的那當時是38條人命那96個人受傷那這個當時的產距換來的這個工程那這麼多死傷還不夠嗎 還要再拖嗎這是我今天不滿的一個意見那我昨天也有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9861.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9876.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那为什么不用二辈经开始先做先祈先能提早动工为什么不能这样子呢你们有没有想过因为二辈你们可以申请啊主要还是要先做土地征收啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9877.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9901.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
對 還有漁民的相關漁業簽署 我跟你講啦依據預算法70條規定很清楚因正式臨時需要的話 得動之第二預備金然後今天 院長前兩天講的是說他要綁在四年一千億的預算裡面那我今天我去查了一下 其實我看了一下 其實國家的二備金還有六十億左右啦並不是說沒有錢 那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9903.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9921.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我覺得我必須要跟全國同胞報告跟宜蘭的報告就是說其實現在二輩軍其實還有錢那我們不能說像院長說的院長說我要綁到一千億四年一千億的自治預算那個部分不會影響到進度的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9922.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9937.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那你們用二倍金趕快先動啊什麼能動的先動嘛因為你知道早一天開工就早一天完工嘛那因為它淹水是什麼時間我們永遠不知道啊另外我也想說要麻煩你們一個點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9937.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9957.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
副主委啊 請你也要告訴陳奕德主委因為他當過政委嘛那他也親自主持過很多這個蘇澳溪分融工程的會議是不是請他要趕快動起來因為不然我去現場看啦我去現場看一堆人在跟我抱怨都是同樣一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9958.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9981.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
說等了這麼久然後去年也淹今年也淹明年會不會再淹沒有人知道那問題是他們每一個人家裡很慘然後那個院長去只是說那個淹什麼一公尺還多少的我們就補助八萬塊然後問題是八萬塊能幹嘛你裝潢都不夠付了所以我有幾個想法就是我要求三件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9983.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9999.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我先講一下二倍金的部分為什麼我一直跟你們說二倍金因為我看到中央政府的二倍金怎麼用他用在幹嘛你知道他用在大罷免可以用二倍金然後看到監察委員出國用二倍金不是經費的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10001.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10022.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
這個結果好那該用的不用你們經濟部也搞了一個無人化創新科技實驗室也是用二倍晶好那所以很多東西你們都認為反正連大罷免都可以用二倍晶那我們認為一些東西能夠趕快做的你們卻認為不需要所以我跟你講最後我跟你說我們要求三件事情就是說我們希望就你 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10022.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10048.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我們希望說不要一直再拖下去啦對 我們沒有拖不要一直再拖下去啦這不是經費的問題經費已經有了也不要跟我們講說什麼什麼要綁到什麼四年一千億那邊去啦我覺得很多東西緩不濟急而且人命的 我跟你講部長 你再講再多人民不會甩你啦人民只看有沒有死人啦有家有沒有淹水啦你在那邊跟他講一大堆五四三的沒有人會理你嘛對不對 因為你今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10049.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10068.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我覺得陳金德政委叫了幾個政治人物在當地講了一堆就你覺得人民理他嗎人民只說那為什麼我家還在煙他們只在意這個點為什麼十幾年前就提出來的工程到今天還看不到樣子人民只在乎這個點你跟人民講再多 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10069.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10088.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
沒有人理你就像你剛剛回覆其他人的答詢一樣你說我們這個台積電出去這個是什麼樣這個技術怎麼樣沒有人會甩你我只知道護國神山被搬走那第二個我還是希望工程能夠趕快做因為我跟你講趕快做不要拖因為這個非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10090.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10115.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
政府現在還有錢可以用不管是救災 不管是工程其實我們還有二倍金可以用那依據這個預算法的規定這個時候用其實是沒有問題因為我們提出來之後又有一堆無腦的網軍就跑來罵說二倍金可以濫用嗎不對喔 依據預算法二倍金在遇到國家正式的緊急狀況就可以用我們國家不能這樣對美採購武器 對美投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10116.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10136.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
幾千億上兆 照單全收但對於我們的國民對於我們的年金斤斤計較不能這樣子嘛我們政府不能這樣對待我們的人民啊你拿到的錢都是人民繳稅的好 那拜託土地徵收 用地土地徵收還有漁民的補償現在已經在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10137.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10166.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那如果有需要冬日二倍金的部分請問一下你們會不會在本週就行文給行政院沒有 還不需要好 你認為不需要那所有這些相關的救災這個都不用嘛你的意思就是這樣相關的工程 相關救災目前都沒有緊急狀況都不需要用到也沒有資金的缺口你的意思是這樣吧好 謝謝部長這樣我了解了好 謝謝這種話你也敢講接下來我們請賴司保委員請做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10173.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10178.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請經濟部長還有中油的董事長請兩位 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10184.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10210.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我請教一下部長 你是中友的老闆喔這個有關於周冠講的說中友的高層啊說 講的說中友很有錢這個綠營黨你們鑑別怎麼樣 進度怎麼樣外界一直關心這一句話這句話對中友 對經濟部很傷啊中友很有錢 意思就是可以亂花錢到底有沒有這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10211.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10236.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
沒有 那個是週刊上的對啊 你們要check一下你要盡快 已經幾天了啊到現在我都沒有答案有沒有有沒有我們會做調查你這樣一直拖對不對 你要已經幾天了已經幾天了 出來幾天了沒有啦 這個勝鋒調查還是要有一段時間比較務實啊還可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10238.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10254.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
還要一個月吼就是12月中一直是這樣子調查一個錄音帶的真偽有沒有這個錄音帶這個不知道就是要調查你還有沒有錄音帶都不知道還在調查當中中委要不要講一下 董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10255.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10280.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這個是週刊的報導說有一個錄音檔那我們會透過一些用行政調查嘛 政風調查想辦法能夠取得這個錄音檔拿到沒有目前沒有啊這個很簡單 那就跟週刊講一下啊要給我們啦 靠批文給我們就好啊週刊好像他有沒有 我們也不知道他也是記者去聽到這個錄音檔寫出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10283.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10306.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
你的意思是記者論嚇死掉了我也不知道 所以我說我們要調查好 第二個我們來看部長 川普有再講一遍說台灣搶走了或者偷走了美國的晶片生意讓美國覺得很丟臉這句話我記得他選舉的時候就講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10311.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10332.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
當總統 報講了幾次他一直對這個事情耿耿於懷你要不要做一些評論報告委員 我覺得台灣的半導體產業在全世界裡面生態體系是重要不可或缺的角色而且台灣的半導體的效力對全世界的貢獻非常非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10333.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10343.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
就是說 你要去對川普講啊川普他是對美國人講 對全世界講 他是美國總統對不對 這個講對台灣很傷餒對台灣很傷餒 你難道對啊 你們講人家聽不到啊 我們在這裡講聽不到啊我們國家小啊 他聽不到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10358.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10377.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
不然你忽略了你你怎麼講你沒用他繼續講沒有我想全世界相繼續講好像台灣是小偷一樣他們都理解到這一點啊對人家還是認為我們是小偷這個你還很大聲的說我們不能接受你可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10379.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10395.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我還是覺得不是 你可以接受你可以接受川普講的說我們是美國的精配小偷你接受嗎台灣半導體對全世界的貢獻真的非常大你接不接受我們會有大問題而且台灣發展半導體已經40多年了你不要一直像錄音帶一直講 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10396.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10416.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你接不接受這一句話你看起來你接受這樣子喔所以你講其他53你接不接受美國的總統川普說台灣是偷走美國晶片的小偷你同意嗎很多的技術都是我們自己發展出來的你要講你要大聲講你大聲也不敢講你說我不同意這對喔你是經濟部長欸你這話都不敢講這代表是有偷喔我們有偷喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10426.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10433.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
怎麼會這樣子呢已經講了一次兩次三次一直講一直講請經濟部的工部長你講你我不接受川普這種講法可以嗎你可以講嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10444.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10462.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
臺灣的技術還是自己很多發展出來可能 我對你很失望這樣做經濟部長一點肩膀都沒有人家給你站成這樣這個對川普已經講了N次了其實其實你應該那個後面講 這是我講的講這個話 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10467.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10495.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
來提高台灣去美國投資的正當性因為你都從我這裡投了所以你要回到這裡投資不只3千5百億最好4千億最好5千5百億請問那個數字出來了嗎3千5到5千5這個對不對這個數字對不對報告委員這個對不對我們半導體去美國投資是因為他有訂單上的需求而且對於公司是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10496.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10500.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
對國家好啦 你說這個我都聽不懂啦行動詞我就問你3500到5500關稅的談判說要台灣投資3500到5500這一句話對不對啦沒有啦 這個還在談判當中啊這個我沒有辦法comment |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10514.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10537.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
媒體都嚇到這樣 都說已經確定了啊三千五到四千五啊我沒有確定啊 還沒有確定我指揮更高是不是啊還沒有確定你意思是不只這樣子啦部長 人家跟你講到這樣 跟你站到這樣這樣當著美國人的面前講台灣是偷美國金品的小偷你都不敢說 我不同意這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10538.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10564.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
你也是這樣沒肩膀要做保證第二個他這個其實他這個相轉五件他再講一遍就是所以下一句話要來美國投資就是這樣金額就是三千五到五千五故事是這樣子部長這個東西不要不要這樣好像好像貴孫子一樣噴到美國好像貴孫子一樣我都不敢講謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10568.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10593.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
謝謝我們賴世保委員謝謝部長謝謝董事長我們接下來請圖軒基委員好謝謝主席那請我們忠祐董事長請忠祐方董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10597.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10612.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
土偉好好 董事長那之前媒體接連在11月10號跟11月17號兩次有質疑我們第三天然氣接收站的工程弊端的問題11月10號是針對第二期 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10614.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10623.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我們外推工程的部分那認為從94億元暴增到253億元11月17號是針對我們一期的主體工程部分報導認為評選的時間花超過4個月對於漫長的時間讓廠商是不是有得知價格在做設計的空間那針對以上兩點我們中油是不是針對這一些部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10644.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10673.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
认为程序是一切合法吗是 报告委首先针对11月10号这个部分所谓报价从94暴增到253亿这样的一个报道呢在公司来讲已经做了内部的一个调查从来没有出现过94亿或者是讲120亿或者是150亿这个数字在公司里面第一手的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10675.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10681.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這個資料就是238.4億那麼238.4億去做公開的閱覽以及做後續的一些處理從頭到尾就238.4億經過廠商詢價以後最後再把這個預算數調整到253億是最終的一個所以沒有經費暴漲的暴增的問題沒有 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10699.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10728.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那針對一期的主體工程那它是因為中間卡著環評才延宕嗎是 這邊所提到的就是說評選時間漫長141天這個應該指的是一期的時候呢在第三次公告那麼公告之後呢到最後的一個決標的時間過長所質疑的是這一點這點我做說明第三次公告之後呢開了標以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10729.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10745.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
公告之後因為環評的關係所以在我們公司對外所做的環評承諾陸陸續續有做一些調整因此在這個招標公告上就去做修正那麼一修正的話那個等標其實就要拉長 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10747.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10769.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
主要的原因在這裡所以其實已經做過調查所以照這樣來講媒體的報導其實是不實的對 報導是不實的那所以這調查已經出來那媒體報導不實那中郵針對這部分要不要跟媒體來提告主要是現在最重點的我想應該應該關心的就是說到底這個事實的真相是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10771.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10790.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那如果媒體確實他沒有經過詳細調查這報導不實對中油如果有影響的話我們當然要提告所以中油會提告嘛是是是那就計畫會提告目前還沒提告是不是目前就是重點是在於這個事實是什麼先要把它調查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10791.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10803.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好 所以如果媒體報導不實中郵會提出告訴是的 是的好 那還有針對這一部分所以我們了解我們目前三接的總工程經費是965億元嘛對不對是的 是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10807.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10825.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那針對我們三接有所謂的地方工程經費1%的回饋也就是依照台灣中油公司木林的工作要點第二點第三項做規範那所以我們當初是說733億所以回饋是 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10829.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10855.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
7億3千多萬那可是照這樣子來講現在是965億那是不是我們針對木林的補助這個經費是不是少編列了這個也會相對的增加會相對的增加什麼時候會提出增加會提出增加 它是跟你的直接工程費用對啊 那你現在已經確定是965億對對 當然要增加那這一次我們有編列嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10856.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10883.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
有 原來的660億的時候呢在這個地方公益建設所編的是8.8億那麼經過的預算調整變成965億以後呢那麼在地方公益建設部分編列是11.3億那是今年度編列了嗎分年編列分年編列他要跟你的工程進度的所以現在總共是編列多少 木林的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10886.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10910.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
不是 到今年嘛是不是累積編列是不是是不是問我會後再提供資料給我好 所以我剛聽董事長講總共會10億多是不是對 11.8所以我們目前是有就是會編列到10億多對 然後逐年編列所以是有10億多的經費木林的經費對不對是好 那會後再給我詳細的資料好的好的好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10912.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10931.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
謝謝圖玄機委員請方董事長休息後回座謝謝我們接下來請王洪威委員好謝謝主席我請一下我們的拱部長請拱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10942.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10962.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
好部長好今天我們經濟委員會安排的是針對中油的這個三接的二期工程有沒有弊案來做這個專案報告不過我想我今天可能還要請教一下就是我覺得這個事件我想國內外都非常的震驚就是我們的台積電 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10963.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10992.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
再次的发生包含技术机密跟营业机密可能被窃的事情刚才我在司法法治委员会询问法务部部长因为根据媒体报道我不晓得这个部长了解的情况是怎样就是说台积电还就是正在了解还没有就是要告发但是法务部高检署已经主动 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10993.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11014.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
要調查這個案子已經主動分案因為按照什麼違反一頁秘密法還有國安還有國安法國安法去主動偵辦那我非常肯定我非常肯定因為我們的護國神山而且這是2奈米以下的這些技術有可能被竊滋事體大好那我另外請教一下部長因為這位羅維仁副總 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11019.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11034.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那他後來在9月份也容認我們的公研院的院士嘛對不對公研院院士那當然這個案子還在調查之中那這個院士好像也是台積電去推薦的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11036.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11060.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
台積電推薦好那我想請問如果現在這個羅為仁院士他可能涉及這個偷竊這個台積電的相關的機密那請問一下這個時候我們要不要考慮暫停或者撤銷他的公研院士身份會不會這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11063.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11083.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我們再來跟公務員院討論一下委員提到我們就來考慮因為現在他的案件現在算是初步在調查當中也許到某一個一段程度你現在所了解的這麼大的案子你所了解現在台積電的進度是怎麼樣他們還沒有進行告發嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11085.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11112.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
因為現在主要是您剛才提到高檢署它現在因為它是按照國安法來辦因為國安法是可以公訴主動來調查就經濟部來講完全會配合所以還在這個階段至於公研院院士你們也會跟公研院來討論如果案件比較明朗的情況之下更為明朗的時候必須要做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11113.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11137.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
是不是那另外就是台積電這個事件他不是第一次不是第一次因為之前日商的東京威力科創也涉及也涉及有這個竊取台積電的機密那這個是台積電主動去告發提出去告發高檢署高檢署那麼他制裁分署也在辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11138.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11149.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那我想請問一下台積電的機密一而再的被竊取我想這個當然是有關於是公司的內部問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11150.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11172.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
但是這個部分我們的政府作為主管機關有沒有一些可以著力點譬如說現在也是傳出來說因為他退休之後立刻去到美國英特爾任職那這裡面台積電就沒有給他簽什麼競業條款那這裡有沒有公司治理的漏洞有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11173.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11190.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
報告委員是不是有簽這個競業條款這個我們還要查證當中那一個說法是他是有簽的可能那有簽他可以再立刻轉去另外一家半導體公司任職理論上是不可以的應該不可以對 理論上是不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11190.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11216.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以我們也會鼓勵台積電如果他有簽競業條款而他可以就是去英特爾認知然後還有涉及竊取機密我們是不是應該鼓勵台積電一定要告啊這個怎麼能不告呢因為高檢署已經主動調查了我想台積電現在應該是配合這個高檢署的調查那我們經濟部也會配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11217.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11235.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我覺得這件事情真的是滋事體大真的滋事體大因為這是在短短的時間內這短短 這個被冬季威力涉嫌竊取也是在今年夏天的事情怎麼還不到半年立刻又爆發另外一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11236.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11262.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以我想也請經濟部能夠密切注意然後協助台積電好不好像我今天是真的非常肯定法部立刻採取行動我覺得這是很正確的不要說我還要等什麼台積電也沒有告發等等之類的好不好好 謝謝謝謝王宏威委員請公務長休息回座 謝謝我們接下來請蔡易瑜委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11277.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11299.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
謝謝主席那我們是不是先請工程會今天是副主委請我們工程會副主委陳偉強陳副主委謝謝副主委副主委從丹納斯颱風到現在我多次的跟工程會建議現在政府的工程的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11301.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11319.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
人才荒啊你的禁用方式不管是錄取那或者是留任基本上都是非常的慘那我直接列一個數據就是說你看一下整個這幾年來工程類的缺額從1400、1700到114年變2000土木工程的缺額從700到966到今年是1111人 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11328.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11348.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那報考的人數逐年減少那表示說現在普遍的工程人員認為說第一個民間的薪資遠大於在公務機關第二個在公務機關畢竟他要擔負的可能就是土地罪或者是一些刑責讓他核銷上這工程人員都會有所顧忌所以他認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11349.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11365.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
平白白是這樣我到民間去可能會比較好的一個選項那造成很多政府的公共工程基本上要發包的問題更何況後續的執行那這樣的一個現象我想請教副主委到底工程會有沒有正式這樣的狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11367.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11381.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
謝謝委員的提問那工程會一直跟考試院還有那個行政人事總處有意識到這個問題所以我們有經過還蠻密集的一些研商 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11382.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11400.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那目前這個情況特別嚴重的是在比較偏遠的地區或者是這個行政層級越低的它越難那我們也有去有你們有注意到行政層級低嘛對不對行政層級越低的尤其是在公所端公所端建設課沒半人這個人就沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11402.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11406.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以目前我們當然第一個當然是有有這個留任獎金的一個這個那另外特別針對偏遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11419.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11441.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
或是比較鄉鎮級的我們是逐步要透過跟大學有關土木工程系的部分來合作譬如說我們會首先在花蓮地區跟這個國立藍大學在那邊設置開設這個專業的班就是讓一些譬如說有志將來要從事 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11443.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11457.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
政府的工作或者現在已經是月聘雇人員那麼給他一些工程方面的專業還有以及採購的證照讓他經過一定的學分以後他取得了專業的證照以後那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11459.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11475.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
就可以進入到公部門比較合適的位置來擔任目前是應該在我們100今年度的預算我們有編列那我們也希望大院可以支持那我們就可以循這個模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11475.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11491.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
副主委那我聽到這個重點就是說你們會跟大學端來合作啦那需求機關有可能是公所有可能是地方政府有可能是中央政府的各機關他可能會需求機關嘛對不對那到底誰要來跟這個大學來做對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11492.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11515.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
是由工程會來統一來主導然後由你們來分配還是自己需求機關自己來跟大學對接他去找他要的人才我想要聽一下原則上我們當然不排斥個別機關去找但我想個別機關去找大學恐怕有一點困難所以目前是由工程會出面來整合那我們可不可以探求這個機關的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11516.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11529.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那我們出面來跟大學那機關是報需求給你們喔我們會去調查 沒錯你們會來調查那嘉義應該也會調查吧我們嘉義我們就是因為是事辦的性質啦那事辦怎麼我們跟他怎麼事辦我們這次丹納斯颱風真的很慘耶我們好幾個公所齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11534.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11538.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
因為他的工程太多了 因為你看那個汙損啊然後汙損的認定啦 很多災損然後又要辦那些小型工程啊例如那個爐啊 行道樹啦 電火條啦 要刷啦這都工程的發包耶 沒人做耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11553.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11581.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以這個當然就是說人才是一件事情另外在採購之外部主委我建議工程會啦把這一次丹納斯颱風的受災區作為優先事項的地方因為我們如果你們有一個多元禁用的一個方案嘛對不對那這樣的方案我們現在確實我們需要這樣的一個人才那又卡到了我事實上我對考試院這一次在核定的這一次植物列等的一個核定我是看得很不開心為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11583.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11605.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
植物列等因公好我們會針對二級機關以上然後把植物列等提高就是說可能在我們縣政府縣的層級他當到科長有可能會讓他到九職等當然待遇的提升可能會讓這一些工程人才願意留在機關這是好事但是偏偏這樣他又排斥了三級機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11608.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11637.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
啊排斥的三級官代表什麼代表說我公所有一個人訓練會成功啊他可能我就好啊我要跑去百威我要跑來中庸我跑去管政府或是我如果假的我就跑去台南那裡的公所因為伯伯苦公所他們那個他們的獵團就比我還高伯伯在公所他們叫區公所啊我們叫做鄉鎮市公所我們的資歷都比較低所以我覺得整個中央的思考一個模式都是輕六都 重六都 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11638.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11644.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
都落土比較好啊我們這個肥料剛好就在台灣打造喔很多人走沒在台灣重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11646.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11671.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這些問題當時我們有收集到各地方政府的意見我們有回饋給考試院啦那考試院當然他有整體人事文官制度的一些考量當然啦 因為你們沒辦法代表考試院嘛所以這意見我們也是特別你跟考試院說然後我也會去跟考試院再發飆一下因為他這樣的一個決定下去你知道對我們是雪上加霜耶我們人就已經要潘老了 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11672.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11691.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
結果他這個植物業等你下去我們公署的人一定又跑掉了我們有感受到這個困境所以工程會也希望能夠積極的協助來處理這個問題那委員的意見我們會帶回去積極來處理好 那第二個事實上我知道最近政府採購法 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11692.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11718.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
有在推針對這個三家以上合格的廠商投標那這件事有可能會透過修法來做一個調整那這個修法的調整事實上原因主要也是希望推動整個公務機關在辦理工程的一個效率在辦理效率當然剛才第一人的問題我剛才已經說了第二制度面的問題但是這樣的一個制度為了效率但是可能你們要去思考就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11719.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11734.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那未來工程的品質是否妥當這件事我覺得這一定要注意喔是當然有信心嗎我們不是單純把三家才能開標拿掉原則上我們是先建立其他的配套措施當年 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11735.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11757.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我想一開始政府採購這個立法的過程本來是沒有三家是因為到大院的時候大院也是考慮到會不會有其他的因為資訊當時不夠充分所以列了一個三家才能開標可是這20幾年來實施的結果這樣三家導致的管制成本太高了而且現在已經資訊相對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11759.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11776.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
比較公開那管道也比較多而且我們現在配套的修法也會強制機關在大院的立法案的審議通過預算以後大概都知道要辦理什麼採購會先做一個年初的這個公告事實上副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11777.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11793.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
副主委我們都知道啦縱使以前規定三家那個三家一直是形式上啦因為真的想要去投標的人對他來說三家也不是什麼大問題啦還是機關拜託他找三家而已啊所以這個是形式所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11794.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11811.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我們當然是雖然說整個法律就是說去形式化讓實質上的效果是最重要那實質的效果的監督就是要靠你們你要幹得好 工廠的品質要出來雖然說好 可能修掉三家後以後變成單家投標 單家得標 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11812.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11834.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
但是這一家廠商是否他的品質是夠的他做出來的工程有夠嗎這就是要看你們的監督的能力到底是夠不夠我們有連結到後面整個停權就會加嚴好那我們也是期待當然這樣的一個修法我們是基本上大方向我們是支持的謝謝委員好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11842.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11858.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
接下來我們中午不休息到今天議程結束 謝謝接下來我們請高精素美委員高精素美高精素美委員不在現場請羅志強委員羅志強羅志強委員不在現場請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11859.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11875.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
请苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在现场请林楚英委员林楚英林楚英委员不在现场请叶元之委员叶元之委员叶元之委员不在现场好我们登记发言的委员除了不在场之外呢其余委员均与 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11876.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11895.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
發言完畢 那詢答結束那委員楊瓊英 呂玉玲 邱志偉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆的部分請相關單位一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會那本日議程所列議程處理完畢謝謝大家 現在休息 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11914.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11916.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
發文不要發文了看看怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11942.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11945.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
因為更今天沒有 |