| IVOD_ID |
17047 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17047 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-26,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-19T08:34:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-19T13:35:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:00:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6850f0f97671e11b2e19d74acb2223bdb99914d0d15f34b2c025626a1e0199b36a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查
一、委員葉元之等18人擬具「家庭暴力防治法第六十條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員王育敏等16人擬具「家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案」案。
三、委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案」案。
四、委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「家庭暴力防治法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員廖先翔等22人擬具「家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案」案。
六、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案」案。
七、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「家庭暴力防治法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。
八、委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「家庭暴力防治法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。
【第八案如經復議，則不予審查】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:04 - 13:35:00 |
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報告聯席會出席委員人數17人以主法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會本日會議已成為這個與司法及法治委員會聯席審查葉元之等18人委員王玉敏等16人委員邱振軍等18人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1783.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1805.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員蘇清泉等18人委員廖先祥等22人委員郭玉琴等17人委員羅廷偉等16人委員廖偉祥等16人分別擬拒家庭暴力防治法部分修正條文修正草案等8案那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭資委員蘇清泉委員盧憲一委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1815.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1842.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
林月琴委員邱振軍委員王玉明委員好 列席官員有衛生福利部部長石崇良保護服務司司長張秀淵心理健康司司長陳柏喜法規會參事陳信誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1846.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1873.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
司法院少年級家事廳廳長鍾宗林法務部檢察司司長張曉雯主任檢察官陳貞慧內政部警政署副署長李文章防治組組長陳炯志刑事警察局警政監吳東文 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1876.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1904.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
教育部國民及學前教育署專門委員洪貞輝數位發展部法制處處長張學文資源管理司記政王文哲數位產業署檢任視察黃國元國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處處長蔡志儒 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1909.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1917.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
現在請提案委員說明提案要旨 每位委員兩分鐘那先請王育民委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1925.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1954.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
谢谢主席今天我们排定了家庭暴力防治法部分条文的修正草案主要是我们看到今年以来已经有几起这个妇女她拿到了家庭保护令但是还是被杀害的案件这样的情况让大家感到非常的痛心跟遗憾而且也凸显了我们现行的保护制度还有漏洞所以应该要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1955.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1979.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
立法來加以完善首先我們看到在土城的這個被殺害的被害者他其實已經拿到了這個保護令那這個加害人呢檢察官有傳喚他但是無保請回沒有羈押結果就發生悲劇了他去找到了這一個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1980.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1995.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
然後加以殺害而且是當街殺害那這個凸顯了第一個我們現行的保護令制度沒有辦法即使去預警告知我們現在的被害人就是說加害人已經接近他他根本就不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1995.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2020.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以我们现行的这样一个制度我们必须要让加害人知道加害人已经接近他因此我在率先提出的修法就希望在电子监控我们可以采取双向的制度这是参考西班牙的经验也就是当这个加害人接近被害人的时候被害人会及时收到警示他会知晓 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2021.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2046.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
可以進一步採取保護自己的措施或盡快遠離這個加害人所以這樣的一個制度我希望在立法裡面我們可以明確的加以立法然後進一步讓這些被害人未來都知道說加害人已經在接近他了他可以收到這樣的一個警示那第二個我們要處理的是現在檢察官針對家暴的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2048.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2065.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
相關加害人羈押率過低的問題過去我們其實都可以看到很多的這個被害人他的主訴裡面其實都會發出警訊他自己知道說這個加害人在接近他的話他可能會有很嚴重的生命安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2066.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2088.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
但是這樣的一個訊息在一層一層從警方送到檢察官的手裡的時候都是被忽略被漠視這一些被害人他心裡的恐懼跟他對於自己人身安全的疑慮那所以這個部分呢我是希望在立法的過程裡面也加入就是說檢察官他必須參採被害人主訴的這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2090.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2107.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
作为他是不是要行这个羁押的参考那这个就是我们非常重视被害人他自己主观的他的心理感受跟他对于加害人他会不会对他产生风险这个重要评估的依据那现行上一次土城的这个案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2107.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2137.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
很顯然檢察官以無保釋毀的方式就是他完全手上沒有去參採到這個被害人的資訊更何況他已經是累犯這個加害人已經是累犯他竟然沒有立刻羈押還是無保請回所以這樣的一個輕忽我覺得未來在立法上面我們也應該要去強化讓檢察官真的發揮是正義的力量該羈押的這一些加害人你應該要予以羈押現在的羈押比例呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2137.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2162.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
只有占7%其实真的是非常非常的低所以今天我特别提出这样的一个修法就是希望我们透过立法我们要来保护我们这一些家暴的这一些受害者我们要让他有免于恐惧的权利更重要的是我们要保护他要继续活下去不要因为这样的一个家暴而失去了生命以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2164.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2186.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
好 謝謝王育民委員說明 請邱振軍委員說明好 主席好 首先謝謝昭偉今天安排這個家庭包容地防治相關修正草案的審查那本席提出的修正條文是第5條 第31條 第35條及第38條 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2190.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2208.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那當然是因為今年我們也看到非常多起的家暴案在保護令有效的期間內殺害受害者的這個部分我們真的感到非常非常的痛心那家暴案因為沒有做這個即時的偵測所以導致這個遺憾的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2209.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2230.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那我在這邊再提一個就是說根據法務部的資料111年到113年家庭暴力犯每年遭生壓的只有6.7%那裁定羈押者只有5.6那違反保護令遭生壓的其實佔全部的7%所以這個比例是非常非常的低 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2232.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2258.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們也考量到檢方他在接觸到這個羈押犯這個犯人的時候他能拿到的資料有限在很短的時間之內他要做出正確的判斷實在是有困難我們當然就是希望提出把家暴高風險評估機制提升到法律位階也可以參考我們西班牙等國家的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2259.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2286.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
透過自動化的技術重新檢討改善家暴風險評估機制以協助檢方提升評估及生壓積壓的一個效率那我們希望這個事情盡快來完成然後越快完成我們就減少一分的遺憾在這邊就拜託我們這個衛福部各位委員大家支持 謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員說明接下來請蘇清泉委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2298.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2314.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝主席那本席所提出的是第31條的修正增加電子監控強化即時預警各位知道我們家暴案件層出不窮幾乎每天都在發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2316.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2342.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因此而受害遇害的也一直在增加2022年到2024年之间平均每年有3309件的加班案而仅仅积压的才186人那个比例太低太低了所以核花保护令的速度效率又不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2344.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2363.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
保護令拿到手根本是廢紙一張所以源頭要怎麼管制所以電子監控台灣的電子業這麼發達電子監控加強預警系統是必須的我們看到性侵害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2365.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2389.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
肇事者他用電子腳銬或者是手銬他的再犯率會大幅下降到0.98%以下沒有佩戴的都是兩倍以上所以這個是成功的經驗因為這個技術必須要擴大所有的家暴也要納入監控人員的設備能力素質 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2391.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2419.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有沒有充沛 設備有沒有充足看到的是一半的監控設備都在維修中所以如何加強這一塊我們立法院這邊一定會來全力支持那如何來通知被害人被害人要如何界定是不是只有當事或者他的親戚因為被殺害的連小意思都被殺了所以現在犯案的人精神有問題太多了所以我們衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2421.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2434.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
要加把勁所以這個今天是我提出這個31條修正的主要意旨謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員說明接下來請葉元之委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2443.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2453.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝主席最近家庭暴力的層出不窮根據一項數據顯示我們民國111年的時候家暴的案件通報是156,864件隔年112年通報了168,331件成長1萬多件到了去年113年又成長到179,107件也成長1萬多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2468.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2486.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
可見家庭暴力案件光是通報數看起來就成長不少那這僅僅只是通報而已甚至很可能存在很多黑數所以家庭暴力確實家庭暴力防治法要修法這個是刻不容緩的那我們有看到一些社會上面比較矚目的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2487.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2511.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
有的受害人已經申請加報令了但是卻可以在暫時加報令還有效的期間遭到前夫的殺害這個看到我們簡直就是不能忍受所以我看到有很多委員提案就是應該要加強針對加害人的科技監控或者是其他的方式或配套措施我覺得政府機關都應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2513.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2535.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
配合研議然後找出更加可以保護受害人的做法那另外因為家暴這個案件或者是家暴怎麼認定也需要做進一步的這個推廣跟教育所以本期這邊提案是針對教育的部分希望能夠在學校教育這一塊呢針對家暴可以做更多元的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2536.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2561.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
教育的方式那我有看到教育部的回應是說教育部已經在課程方面有推動多元的方式而且非常重視這一塊那我們就可以讓他法治化好讓明文規定讓讓各個不管是機關也好學校也好更有明確的法令可以來追尋好以上謝謝好謝謝葉元之委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2563.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2575.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好接下來請這個衛福部時部長說明那等一下也請司法院少年級家事廳的中廳長說明以及法務部的檢察司的張司長說明請就位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2580.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2600.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席跟各位委員今天本部應邀出席今日審查葉元之等委員提出的家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案共8案那麼以下就僅就各委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2602.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2618.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
表達本部的評估的建議第一個是有委員在修法版本裡頭建議對於目睹家庭暴力的定義將原本看見或直接聽聞來擴增事實上原本條文的所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2624.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2648.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
直接看見或直接聽聞已經包含了直接或間接知悉家庭暴力並非只侷限於親眼目睹所以這個是不是要再增列其他的感官覺察方式這個可以再討論那麼第二個是委員建議修法在家庭暴力高風險評估機制的部分事實上目前我們已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2649.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2671.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
建立在辦理這些加報案件 通報案件的時候有危險評估的機制同時針對高風險的個案也建置了高危機個案網絡會議的作業平台來促進司法 警政 社政 衛政網絡之間的即時共享資訊進行風險的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2673.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2698.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那麼第三個是有委員建議要新增同住的兒少要併同核發保護令的部分那已經目前本法在第四條就已經有將目睹家暴的兒少都已經併入保護令的範疇所以這個部分是否要再修正文字我們尊重司法院的意見那第四個是有關於新增 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2699.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2707.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
加害 高風險加害人那麼強制要篩檢跟儲育的機制並且要定期的回報儲育計畫進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2710.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2734.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
與成效那麼並且將未規定參與處理計畫的樣態納入合法內容及違反保護令罪的構成要見部分那這個我們尊重這涉及到法官的裁判所以我們尊重司法院的意見那另外呢在擴大法院對出庭安全措施的範圍部分那麼涉及到司法院的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2736.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2754.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個也請尊重司法院的意見那麼另外比較多的版本裡面會特別提到科控措施包含新增電子保護令的申請核發執行撤銷或者是科控的等等方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2756.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2773.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因为这个涉及到这个被害人对于这个被害人的保护我们是非常支持但是这个以客控方式的话会涉及到被害人本身的人身自由跟隐私的议题那么另外他所适用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2775.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2800.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個保護令處分內容的款項上面呢那麼也有其這個適用上的限制所以對這樣的議題也還涉及到跨部門之間的這個言商包含司法院法務部警政署跟各縣市主管機關那麼我們是建議在跨單位的再細琢其執行的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2801.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2816.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那麼另外有委員也建議新增檢察官偵查家庭暴力罪及違反保護令罪實那麼須經被害人陳述其相處經驗與意見來作為申請羈押考量部分那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2818.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2844.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
雖然這樣的修正內容可以增加被害人的參與讓這個程序更嚴謹及資訊完整但是同時也可能會增加在羈押程序當中那麼限縮原本預防性羈押的目的所以這個也請再評估那麼另外再也有委員建議新增這個司法機關對家庭暴力罪或違反保護令罪之被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2844.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2864.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
拒保折付限制居住或釋放時得付接受適當之科技監控那麼也跟剛剛前面的電子保護令那麼有類似的設計那我們也是建議這個跨單位然後對於這個被害人的隱私自由的部分也要同時考量那 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2865.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2894.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
至於這個有委員建議民定在各級學校要實施家暴防治課程那這個我們是競表尊重這個競表同意啦那尊重教育部的意見那另外委員建議加重違反保護令的刑度的部分那麼考量到家庭成員之間的關係的特殊而且這個保護令的樣態也很多元那麼是不是要提高這個法定的刑度那麼我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2895.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2918.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個有沒有符合這個罪責相當原則我們也這個可以再評估那麼當然這一次的各個八個版本裡面最大的提出最多的大概就是用科技設備來監控那確實也有其他國家有類似的設計所以我們目前正在規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2919.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2946.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
辦理這個各國制度跟實施現況的一些分級比較在瞭解這個其他國家在實施這個科技監控的優缺點跟限制之後再提出完善的這個配套的措施那麼一方面保護到這個被害人的最大權益那麼也避免侵害其自由隱私的情形之下那麼來執行所以再來執行所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2948.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2965.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個目前我們對於這些這個建議的修正條文提出這樣的意見再請各位委員指導 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請這個接下來請司法院 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2977.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3002.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席各位委員各位先進今天奉邀列席貴委員會聯席審查各委員所提家庭暴力防治法修條文修正草案請代表市委員就下列重點向各位先進說明及報告第一關於加害人科技設備監控部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3003.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3032.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
對於這一部分來保護這個被害人人身安全的保障這樣的一個草案方向司法院原則是同意的那麼但是有下列幾點的思考就是說有關於加害人實施這個科技設備的監控他最主要是要增強這個遠離被害人或駐居所這樣的保護令那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3032.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3049.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
用這個科控的方法來讓它有效同時提高對被害人 未成年人或家屬的一個人身安全的保障但是科控涉及下列兩個要思考的問題第一個就是所謂這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3051.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3077.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
人身自由隱私以及行動自由的基本權的限制那麼必須符合憲法23條的比例原則所以在核發這個電子這個科控的同時需要評估這個如何平衡這個所謂的人身自由隱私以及重大基本權那這是值得思考那第二個就是那如果我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3078.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3095.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
要在國外的立法例裡面有被害人要同時裝置有對應設備這個會涉及被害人的隱私權以及被害人的相關的一個身體自主跟秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3096.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3122.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
等的一個隱私所以國外有一些立法例都是要經過被害人同意那這一部分本院認為要非常慎重來斟酌跟思考第二部分關於廚藝計畫的修法這個草案那麼以下有第一就在14條第一項有委員建議增訂依執行單位指定參與的時間地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3124.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3142.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那这一个部分本院没有意见尊重贵院的决定第二个是新增强制这个高风险的暴力行为人进行强制性的鉴定处理这个利益良善本院原则也同意但会在实务涉及 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3142.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3164.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這樣的鑑定是屬於醫療治療的行為的話它必須有相當的配置才能縮短這個法院審理保護令核發處理計畫的一個這個速度這個是需要評估的那第三個是有關法官核發了處理計畫保護令以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3165.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3189.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
在執行期間以及執行完畢後委員有提出草案認為說第一個要定期向法院以及主管機關做評估報告那這個本院競表贊同但是第二個就是執行完畢以後如果發現評估結果認為有這個再施暴高風險那麼這裡有一個草案要求說 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3190.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3211.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
送这个主管机关跟法院由法院来下这个命令来监督继续追踪辅导权责及相关的时效那这一部分本院有一个建议的意见也就是说一线型家暴法明定加害人相关的追踪辅导 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3211.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3227.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
也就是說在這個輔導完畢再繼續追蹤部分是由縣市主管機關應辦理這樣的目前也有相關的執法規在進行那第二個就是如果這樣的修法通過那本院在司法院的部分因為法院是要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3228.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3244.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
案件系屬才能做這樣的一個裁判命令所以必須要重新考量這樣的一個有關這樣的修法規定因為保護令合法完畢那麼我們是建議說像有這種情形是可以在執行期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3245.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3273.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
如果是主管機關申請的那主管機關可以來申請延長或變更保護令的內容包括處理計畫那如果是一般的被害人申請那我們保護單位可以協助第三有關未成年子女保護令部分這個委員提案固然都非常珍貴而且是在保護被害人但這裡涉及到兩部分如果說父母間申請保護令跟未成年子女也申請保護令這裡是建議說 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3274.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3297.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
合併審理合併裁定目前有15有很多都是這樣做但是有一部分是因為未成年子女涉及會面探視監督室必須有一定期間去做詳細訪視評估那這時候如果我們要等候合併裁定他會有一個重大缺點就是要及時的保護另外一個保護令要等候 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3297.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3323.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那這個時候法官一般就是先下保護令去保護另外同這樣的案子那第二部分是說如果父母雙方為子女申請保護令那這個就是一般的侵權爭鬥的部分那為了保護未成年子女最好要分開審理分開裁定這個目前我們非常贊同而且實務我們在相關法官訓練也是進行這樣的部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3324.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3345.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
最後一部分就是有關於這個法院應該保障被害人安全出庭跟安全返回住處那第一部分我們非常贊同而且我們也已經訂定有很多安全出庭的維護計畫這一部分是沒有問題的但是另外一部分因為涉及食物問題就是說法院如何確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3346.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3363.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
被害人在開完保護令頂以後安全返回他的住所庇護處那這一部分我們個案有協助但是通案要協助涉及到目前的保護令被害人常常因為有交報以後他就離開了縣住所比如說到別的縣市去那再來就是說這個我們實務操作上根據48條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3368.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3395.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
警察機關就這個被害人的一個安全維護有相關的規定所以這一部分如果完全規定因法由法院來將被害人安全護送回到家裡這個恐怕實務上現在司法院的人力警衛安全人員以及相關的部分可能有所一下子自愛沒有辦法做到所以我們建議是說現行我們應該是加強這個跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3398.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3415.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
警政單位來合作如何確保高風險的回家的時候是不是連續一48條警察機關跟我們合作來護送以上那至於說在31條刑事的部分我們再請我們刑事廳的法官黃法官來做報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3418.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3442.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
委員好 我是司法院刑事廳黃湘瑩法官在此就刑事的部分跟委員們這邊做一個補充的說明部分首先就是我們要先強調是說由於這個部分我們家暴法這邊希望做科控的目的是在於是做一個預防性的處分目的是希望避免說家暴不要再發生其實主要是在刑事 如果說這邊到刑事的羈押替代處分這部分是以防逃為核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3443.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3469.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以我們這邊是認為說這邊的保護令的性質跟我們的GRT帶處分性質本質上就是不同那原則上如果說假使這個部分可以提前治那個加帕法14條在核發保護令的時候然後讓被害人可以視他的危險程度跟自身的需求可以去申請同步來申請這個科控的話那不僅在取得保護令這邊的法律保護之餘還可以使得對於相對人施以必要的監控那可以在這個憾事發生之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3470.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3486.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
就可以有效來介入提供一個實質的防護那另外就是在於是說假使如果說要弄到那個31條的部分的話這邊的前提會變成是說案件已經進入到偵查或是審理程序它已經是違反了那個家暴案件或是違反保護令已經發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3486.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3510.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那這時候法官這邊他在裁量的時候他必須要看有沒有什麼犯罪嫌疑重大還有具備羈押等相同那些原則那直到沒有羈押的必要他才會去做審慎評估這邊他是不是要可恐那其實這樣的話更不利於那個被害人在一剛開始希望能夠防範家暴的風險相信這邊被害人他希望拿到的不是只有一紙保護令而是在拿到保護令的同時能夠給他有一個防範能夠讓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3512.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3532.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
远离这个危险源的一个相对的一个科控机制所以站在我们的立场我们请向31条是比较属于补充性质假使如果在14条的部分没有做一个相对应的科控而案件发生了家暴事情到了31条的时候刑事庭法官在评估的时候发现这个部分有科控的必要我们当然可以在31条的部分搭配着做一个科控 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3532.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3549.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
的一個補充的手段那這個部分的話是就是做一個補充那另外這裡是說關於建制機關的部分如果配合目前民事保護領域是由警察機關來執行第一時間的監控跟回應的話相信這個部分會比較能夠提升他的這個保護的即時性 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3549.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3578.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
而且是最適當的一個限制機關如果就目前為止刑事的一個科控的監控中心的話我目前其實量其實是有限的是比較不夠而且我們是以防逃為機制我們是設置電子圍籬如果今天我們今天是一個做一個預防要保護被害人的話還需要被害人這邊做一個雙向搭配同意的一個配套的搭配措施以目前只有刑事這部分防逃為主的部分的話可能還不足以能夠防止加害人來接近被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3578.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3580.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那以上是這邊的一個簡單的補充 謝謝接下來請法務部檢察司張司長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3600.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3615.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會聯席審查委員葉元之等18人等女具家庭暴力防治法修正草案的等8案代表本部報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3617.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3633.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
就重點報告如下為強化被害人的保護大院委員提案修正家庭暴力防治法相關條文其中關於家庭暴力防治法第31條法院甲官附條件命令部分大院委員均提出相關修正條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3634.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3663.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
增訂對於未予羈押的家庭暴力罪被告得命其接受適當之科技設備監控並參酌外國相關法制採行雙邊電子監控模式同時監控加害人行蹤及與被害人間相對位置並使被害人目睹家庭暴力而少或其特定家庭成員知悉加害人位置以加強保護被害人及其特定家庭成員本部對此加強保護被害人之立法目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3664.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3683.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
競表贊同然而採取上述的雙邊電子監控模式被害人或特定的家庭成員的行蹤也在監控中心的掌握之中對於個人隱私保護會有一定的影響建議仍應再行審酌是否充分尊重被害人意願情形之下為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3684.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3700.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
再者本部與司法院雖然共同建置有科技設備監控中心 然該制度是基於防止刑事被告逃亡以立訴追審判執行的目的而設依據為刑事訴訟法第116條之二第一項第四款之規定與民事保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3701.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3727.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
或是家庭暴力法家庭暴力防治法所謂的雙邊電子監控是為保護被害人之目的顯然不同而且檢察署或檢察官是犯罪偵查的機關以及主體並非執行保護令的機關以及人員因此相關的執行監控及設備的回復建請由本法的主管機關為之以力強化對被害人的保護及加害人的處遇其餘部分進行參考本部的書面意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3728.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3751.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
本部对于妇幼儿少保护以及防治家庭暴力至为重视也感谢大院委员长期关注此议题并积极提出修法草案完备法制深化保护本部也将持续促请所属甲官注意家庭暴力防治法刑事程序章节的相关规定妥善运用甲官命令的制度并与相关部会协力合作绵密社会安全网络以上报告进行指教谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3760.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3771.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
謝謝 有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本聯席會委員詢答時間6分鐘 列席委員4分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3776.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3790.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請石部長請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3803.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3817.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
政務院長部長 您上任都提出很多計畫其中之一是利用部分負擔來強化這個分局醫療那因為我目前還沒看到細節可是我已經聽到有醫師那半開玩笑說他將來打算在這個台大醫院的附近開一個這個轉診門診 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3818.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3830.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那只要負責開轉診單不需要照顧病人就可以有收入了當然這是一個開玩笑說法但是我要提醒部長部長就是說配套措施如果不夠完整這種事還是有可能在發生這種本末倒置的狀況所以我是不是請部長說明一下說你大概的這個癡情方向是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3838.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3856.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
跟委員說明其實分級醫療一直都是我們在推動這整個醫療制度或者是健保很重要的一個精神那麼分級醫療當然就是希望大病在大醫院小病就在我們的地區醫院或者是診所看就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3856.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3880.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那现在我们的统计发现到了其实在大医院里面特别是医学中心里面看了很多都是轻症者都是稳定的所以我们第一步已经在过去推动了几年让这个医学中心去成立它的转诊体系像台大它有心悦计划还有验行计划等等那所以我们第一步会先 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3881.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3904.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
由醫學中心的門診的部分先去安排好先從門診去安排好這個轉診的網絡我們長期也有專業互動啦所以你的大病看開院小病看小病小病診自己照顧這個分級醫療核心這個我們都同意啦所以你剛剛點出重點因為前署長李博張署長他也提到了為什麼民眾要直接去大醫院看民醫呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3904.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3920.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為他覺得這個健保會富嘛多的檢查也大概不要錢然後藥也不算貴嘛就是便宜所以造成整個這個超載那部長我接下來請替病友團體向您請命有些病他雖然不屬於重大疾病重大傷病 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3921.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3940.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
但基層診所跟小醫院他未必能夠好好照顧我以肝險朋友病友為例他們需要的是當然就是現代的符合時尚的是一個符合時代潮流是一個生物製劑當然還有那個光照的治療但是這些很多都只有大比較大的醫院才有能力提供我相信這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3941.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3961.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
署長很清楚但是部長很清楚但是健保給付對於這個生物資金非常的嚴苛框框架架還綁著這個光照的這個時間那我要跟跟部長講的是說有些病友跟我們說因為他不在那個自費範圍內因為我們相對嚴格所以部長我第一個先跟你談很多的過去的比較重大一些疾病的這個治療我們過去是因為財務比較鬆綁的但是未來因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3964.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3976.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
不可能往回頭走所以只能大概繼續回到一個比較指引科學指引的方向走那很多病友跟我說他不得不去因為是自費的他不得不去所謂的執政黨講的境外敵對勢力去買藥來用在當地或是買藥用 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3980.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3998.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因為自費價格兩岸相差太大了所以有一群他真的是這個醫療環境迫使他們去大醫院的病人那他們的部分負擔也許這個部長將來要有其他的機制我知道分級醫療的概念但是有一些人我必須再繼續講就是說他們的回診頻率有時候會根據這個診斷階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4001.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4018.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
治療階段或追蹤期有不一樣那他們會擔心有時候要兩三週就回診一次那他們的轉診單是要一直去取嗎等等的因為這個細節還沒有看到所以我希望部長是不是在這個方向能夠稍微有細日一點的設計方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4018.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4044.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
跟委員報我們在未來這個要推動這個時候一定會考量到療程的延續性有些他是一個完整的療程所以不需要在療程當中不斷的拿轉診單因為你一聽就會理解但是我要再跟一群小數病人來請命你看看右邊這個設備這個是肝血病人的光照設施你覺得要一個六歲的小朋友一個人待在裡面做治療你覺得難度高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4046.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4061.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這個當然很高啊因為他的控制性比較差我要告訴你6到12歲的小朋友目前還是要經過有感染病人經過光照治療當然還之前還要服用這個口服的免疫療法嘛那負重都很大而且要做這個治療 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4062.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4087.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
現在還是這麼嚴格我三年前坐在那邊小兒科病人幫病人請病但是你的專家都不允許那這個phototherapy我要講的一星期可能要兩三次第一個他們要請假去治療先不要說爸爸媽媽當然要陪著請假第二個他們有時候到下課才去治療下課治療只剩下診所或小醫院那未必有這樣的這個這個設施所以是不是小朋友的部分你要有特別的這個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4088.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4108.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
但是沒有 現在還是一樣一樣嚴格我們過去是先放鬆了六歲以下六歲以下我們先放鬆異位性皮膚炎 肝腺病人還沒有放鬆那麼六歲到十二歲這邊如果有這個我們從 目前沒有徵詢一些臨床的意見那我希望你不但是要留住 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4108.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4120.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
花了200多要留住小兒科醫師但是兒科的病人是不是可以請你盤點一下他們有任何是跟平常成人比照但事實上有困難的他們對他們來說應該有不一樣的照顧方式部長您同意嗎同意 同意 同意兒童一定會有特別的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4123.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4152.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
但是我看到沒有我就清楚熟悉有很多很多的限制那我們今天談那個家庭暴力防止我想告訴部長這些負責接觸弱勢的社工們其實自己也常常處在脆弱之中那衛福部2018年有設了一個社福人員勞動申訴及溝通平台那根據這個辦理流程申訴要60天內要回復這個辦理情形但社工界人士指出多數案件都超過這個時效超過期限甚至超過300天超過一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4153.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4173.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
都還沒有這個結果所以社工們質疑中央是不是為監督管理的責任部長您知道這件事嗎您知道這件事嗎這個我看到的數字其實沒有多數都要這麼久但是我相信有些案件因為要調查的關係雖然這個是由勞動部來管理但是畢竟平台是設在衛福部你又是社工室的大家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4174.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4185.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那是不是就是說對於這個他們要求工會他們的工會要求說希望能夠就超過期了就強制開了一個專家會議來趕快處理您同意這樣的意見跟說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4186.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4209.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
好我們來朝這個方向演繹一下就是如果超過一定的時間的話就強制召開因為這個原來的規定沒有辦法做到讓他接觸這個脆弱病人這群社工也能夠被照顧那才有能力去照顧這群脆弱的病人我們絕對是挺社工絕對全力挺社工的謝謝部長主席已經站起來了謝謝謝謝陳肖之委員發言接下來請林月琴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4225.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4251.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
主席麻煩我們的衛福部跟法務部請部長跟法務部代表林委員早部長早家暴的事件不斷發生大家社會都很高度關注尤其事實上是被害人一定是我們要保護的對象可是先來問一些執行的狀況因為執行狀況才能夠如果執行不好的話大家就是沒有辦法解決問題第一個問題想來問的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4254.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4279.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
家暴家害人處遇計畫早已經入法了那違反處遇要求就違反我們的保護令可能被移送可是目前各界都一直提到執行效果不佳所以先想黃副部這邊是不是已經有跟司法院演繹如何提高我們的處遇計畫的裁定率有嗎 好 不 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4280.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4297.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
因為這個處理計畫是屬於民事保護令的範圍 是不是由司法院這邊來做說明請司法院代表委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4300.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4327.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
有關於這個處於計劃如何促進各法院在受理期間我先就問你說你的裁定率有提高嗎因為這個很重要因為加害人的處於真的事實上是蠻重要的我說明一下如果依照我們的統計數據經過促進以後在今年一到九月一到九月的裁定率說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4334.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4335.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好 我看这儿 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4336.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4359.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那個我們通保令通保令合法這個除疫計劃全國總平均28.01是比113年23.71有提高那證明1到8月我們跟衛福部的一些研究方案還有我們內部的促進方案是稍微有一些增加但這個應該還要再努力好 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4360.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4378.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那就要再努力那麻煩司法院和法務部請回那我要講問衛福部就是說今天我們從被害人那邊大概在服務被害人團體都一直知道說他們根本就不知道原來有可以向法院申請這一項說要求加害人藥來進行儲育計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4381.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4396.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以我覺得這部分部長可不可以說明一下雖然沒有錯裁定事實上是我們司法院這邊可是重點事實上是家暴法還是在衛福部這邊那怎麼會是被害人不知道他自己的這樣的一個權益所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4398.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4412.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
跟委員說明確實我們在這個11月11月3號我們特別召開一個會議去討論怎麼樣呢這個去從幾個方面一個是縮短這個保護令的核發的比例或時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4413.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4431.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那一方面也要加強被害人如何知道保護自己所以這些都是要在我們得知到有家暴通報的時候我們的社工人員介入的時候或者是第一線人員介入的時候需要提供這些資訊給被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4434.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4457.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
通報人讓他知道所以我們在強化幾個一個是他如何收集足夠的證據他需要哪些證據能夠協助檢察官或者是法官去判定最後的這個家暴令的核發縮短他的時效第二個是怎麼樣自我保護他的意識上他怎麼在這段期間內去強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4458.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4483.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
食物現場反應加害人大概都會逃避儲育否認跟缺乏意願來解決問題那如何協助做加害人儲育的機構來解決這個問題就是說他們大家都是逃避不願意去被儲育所以不知道你們這邊有沒有一些對應的措施強化加害人是 去接受儲育 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4486.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4500.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們目前是跟委員說明這個加含儲育它是一個保護令那在55條有相關的一些聯繫機制再不行他不參加或參加時數不足或者是他有一些違反措施在61條有違反保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4502.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4522.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
不過市長也知道因為很多被害人的經濟還是來自加害人現在還是給付所以部分加害人會以工作影響為由要求政府要給予貼補交通或者事實上是工時的損失這聽起來是不合理的要求可以要求在執行機構跟加害人來做如何來做一些協調嗎這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4524.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4542.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
目前在執行處遇的一些機構他們都很貼心它有不同時段例如說在上班時間或非上班時間都有那另外處遇的費用目前也是由政府來支應所以基本上這個可能是一個理由但是我覺得它就是一個藉口好 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4544.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4564.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
部長保護被害人絕對是不用懷疑的但被害人的各種權益有沒有被完整考量這才是重點不是我們在上面定一條法律大家就會乖乖配合就以為真的保護到被害人對被害人影響所以請問部長這次有關要做科技監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4565.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4580.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
部長有沒有做到完整評估不要讓被害人陷入更多的恐懼因為雙邊電子監控對被害人影響這麼大本來就應該做性別影響評估新法在性別主流化下也都有這一塊那這部分有可能要去做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4582.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4603.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
目前跟委員說明確實如何去強化保護被害人我們大家都在朝這個方向努力那麼至於說用科技設備來協助也有一些國家的經驗所以我們目前正在收集這方面我有收到團體給我們的很大的意見是說被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4605.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4625.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
他很擔憂甚至他的孩子雖然說感覺雙病可是他相對他也被監控所以有沒有評估這樣會不會更加激怒加害人引發更嚴重的報復如果被害人忘了帶沒看或者是剛好沒看訊號有時候加害人靠近的地方一旦出了事情會不會又來譴責被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4628.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4651.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以委員的顧慮我們都覺得很重要而且他們也提出來台灣空間距離很短如果是同鄉同村同社區電子監控到底要怎麼執行會不會一直在那裡狂想警報讓他們自己在工作上甚至在跟人家會面的時候聚會的時候受到很大的影響這個都必須考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4653.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4672.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以最關鍵的是還是要深刻分析不是倉促上路所以按照西班牙他們當然也是目前做起來是最好可是他們有一些適用範圍跟風險分級評估你們有找尋到這樣相關資料知道說未來我們國內到底要如果真的要做要怎麼做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4673.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4693.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我们会纳入这个收集的对象我们现在正在收集各国的做法上还有也要提醒因为我刚刚讲过北海的经济是有些是来自于加害人的那如果怎么去避免监控导致加害人失去工作就最后受害的还是谁还是孩子跟北海人 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4694.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4704.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個要一併是不是要考量另外一個就是說目前科技的設備量能跟監控中心的設置的規劃如果要做你們的想像是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4706.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4728.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們當然想像上是這個不是只有監控它後面要有對應的措施那以我們現在衛福部的能力那個科技是小事是後面的怎麼樣去介入那麼這個恐怕不是只有衛福部能夠做沒有辦法做到這樣我們還是要考量到不過我就是要提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4729.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4748.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
如果真的要做被害人預警機制如何設計還有什麼樣子觸發警示他警示後警方的介入程序這很多都要考量不是一個法定下去之後搞不好傷害到的事實上是真正可能傷害到是被害人以上謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝林月琴委員發言請陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4761.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4789.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
謝謝主席 我想請部長請石部長部長好賴總統在16號的時候宣布說未來我們衛福部要成立新的兒家屬但我看了一大堆新聞新聞名稱現在是非常紛亂有的前面是兒童有的前面是兒少然後有的是家庭照顧屬有的是家庭支持屬你可以在這邊跟大家講 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4790.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4815.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
證明一下到底未來還會叫什麼名字跟委員報告因為我們現在正式的這要涉及到那個組織法的修編所以我們還沒有正式送出到行政院的組織法的那個草案還沒有那當然目標的族群就是兒童但是兒童在醫學的定義18歲以下是兒童但是醫學是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4817.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4843.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
但是按照我们的儿少法他分儿童跟少年所以12岁做切割点所以名词上到底是要用我们一般的这个通念还是法律的概念这个到时候我们都会在所以你的意思是说你现在只知道他叫儿家属对对象是OK的对象很清楚就是儿童18岁到18岁医学上的定义到18岁那后面有吗几家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4844.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4859.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
有家庭因為這個家庭的支持在兒童發展的過程當中家庭的支持是很重要所以你後面會叫家庭還是家庭支持家庭支持所以是兒童級家庭支持署兒童級家庭支持署或兒少級家庭支持署你這個編制還沒送出去還沒有所以你被賴總統突襲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4863.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4883.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
沒有 這不會這個是總統要回應到我們的民間民團大家的倡議以及整個在國家希望工程裡面希望對於兒童有更好的照顧再來我想問一下你的預算因為之前我們都 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4885.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4902.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
耳熟能詳的啦你說要用4年編135億來做兒童健康的照顧那這個是兒童這個部分嘛你家庭的部分你是要再另外編列預算嗎這個我們目前規劃上是把這個跟兒童相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4903.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4928.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
从他的这个托育那些也都是啊所以是把它整合在跟儿童相关的所以包含这个从胎儿时期的这个从胎儿时期那你有包括孕妇吗我们未来的话不是从这个你一直讲配胎对对对所以你要把然后到他的发展到托育就是出生之后的托育所以你的意思是说你会把部分其他属的业务 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4931.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4944.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
對 會調整會把現在本來在社家屬社會及家庭屬裡面有關於兒童服務役托育的部分我們會把它移到這個兒家屬托育 對那另外也會把把那個生產不是生產就是這個兒童的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4952.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4972.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
早期疗愈那一块早疗的部分也会移进来那你的胚胎是什么意思因为我看到胚胎我会联想到孕产部所以孕产的那一块要不要移动再进来我们会再讨论这个就是它从胚胎开始的所以我们会一并去 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4973.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4990.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
去討論到底有沒有要移進來因為會涉及到我們好多個現行的單位的他的業務的移動那你為什麼要從胚胎開始講你為什麼不從出生開始講胚胎就是生命的開始我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4993.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5009.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
希望保護的就是應該照顧的是從胚胎的時候就開始有一些政策因為這一個單位會包含到這個兒童的這個健康政策的研習所以我才問你有沒有包括孕產婦因為胚胎在孕產婦的身體裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5011.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5040.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
它可能还包含一些筛检的有一些筛检的政策你是说在产检的时候的筛检对对对产检有一些筛检你要把它移到儿家属这里来它是不一定我们是有一个叫做政策就是儿童的健康政策的规划单位但是执行的时候会看到它的业务的整合性你的筛检是不是出生以后的筛检你应该不是只产检政策规划就是整个健康政策的规划要在这里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5041.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5066.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好 虽然听的不是很理解但是等到你全部都公布之后还有第二个问题就是说以往比如说我自己去考察一个机构一个学校或是一个托婴一个托育它有可能附属在学校下面有可能附属在某一个机关下面那长久大家就会觉得很奇怪你这个家这个属叫儿家属儿童照顾 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5067.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5095.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
可是一般家長有時候都會覺得奇怪為什麼托育0到2歲是衛福部管2到6歲就變教育部負責那比如說發生了一個暴力事件或者是不當對待我們還要去區分它發生的場域在哪裡那再去找主責的機構其實這個就是長久以來的問題我不知道把兒家屬合併然後升級成一個三級的機構是不是可以解決以前很多跨部會的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5097.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5115.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我想儿童的照顾本来或者是儿童的健康他的权益他涉及到跨部会他不会是只有通通在卫福部里头所以他确实是会涉及到跨部会的协调但是我们把他的这个卫福部的窗口 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5117.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5132.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
先統一起來了在兒家署裡面然後再透過這個兒家署做跨部會之間的協調那你的編制大概會有多少人還要再細算現在目前在做業務調整之後就會細算你覺得至少你需要多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5134.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5163.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
这个在数的规模上有一定的组跟人数的这个规模一定会有那外界有一个误解现在世界各国尤其是面临少子化国安危机的国家他们都纷纷成立类似你这样子名称的单位不管是哪一个级别但是大部分级别都比我们高所以很多人误会了觉得你这个是跟少子女化有相关的但是你是其实就是照顾儿童 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5164.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5183.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
但你看我們現在的出生率是越來越慘今年可能11萬嘛那你的服務案量是會越來越少那難道你不會覺得擔心嗎你現在開了一個新的編制可是你未來服務的人是越來越少而你沒有一起加入成立做這個少子女化的相關政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5185.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5205.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
在少子女化這個政策的這個應對方案的部分另外在行政院層級他也有這個相對應的計畫的行動計畫在推動那個就是很多跨部會的那我們這個在衛福部裡面主要是主責在兒童已經出生之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5205.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5227.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好 我知道 沒關係因為主席站起來了我是在幫你講話因為我也希望你以後業務是越來越繁榮嘛誰會希望你的業務量是越來越萎縮所以在這邊是想具體建議你如果遇到院長或者是總統你要不要建立他成立因為他現在總統府有三個委員會要不要成立第四個委員會是少子女化的對策委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5228.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5251.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
或者是一個國發會拉出來二級機關少子女化以及人口對策委員會你覺得你贊不贊成因為聽起來你就是一個兒童的窗口窗口但假使要解決少子女化一個專責單位啦就是兒童照護的專責單位他整合了我們目前善待的業務因為主席站起來了我只是希望部長可不可以呼應你會不會希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5252.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5271.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
院長或總統也可以希望有更高級別的跨部會整合不然你的業務量怎麼辦對我想這個少子女化這個問題現在在行政院層級就已經有在相對應的計畫有一個少子女的對策現在有啊但是沒有用啊它越來越低耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5272.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5287.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他每一年越来越低耶所以你的意思是说只需要精进这个原本的计划就可以扩展你服务的按量了目前已经有一些机制继续去强化他你觉得会有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5289.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5316.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
这个不断的在调整那个对策上不断的在调整所以你觉得靠现在的计划就够了未来还会有一个计划会提出来现在正在所以你的意思是说你不认为需要成立更高级别了以目前我们所成立的这个是儿童的这个照护那还有个专责的单位来成立那我们是积极的朝这个方向来设立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5317.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5324.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
就是一個這個兒童及家庭支持署我們是確定是朝這個方向來設好謝謝你好謝謝謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5341.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5365.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
謝主席 麻煩有請衛福部施部長法務部檢察司張司長以及司法院邵家庭鍾廷長黃議員好三位好 時間的關係不亦問候首先感謝趙偉在今天排審的家庭暴力防治法非常重要的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5366.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5391.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我想時間的關係我很快帶大家回顧一下我們今天為什麼聚集在這裡處理這個議題今年七月初的時候有一位家暴的男性違反保護令的措施當街殺死了妻子跟他的妻妹這個悲劇發生了以後我們的衛福部馬上大動作說要跨部會檢討五大作為來補破網 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5394.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5410.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
在立法院要求衛福部的報告當中衛福部說要落實危險評估機制強化被害人保護司法院說要持續精進完善強化跨網絡的合作這些都是在今年7月發生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5412.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5438.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
社會發生了悲劇衛福部趕快動起來立法院也排了章案報告大家都說要檢討問題是我們看到的是什麼我們看到的是到7月底再度發生家暴殺人我上一次站在這邊質詢的時候是當再度發生的時候我關心的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5440.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5467.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
從衛福部到司法院到法務部大家口口聲聲所說的有精進的措施有精進的作為到底落實的情況是怎麼樣結果一檢驗不堪檢驗各機關各個階段一再漏接沒有落實應該有的作為家防中心協助身心保護令的時候沒有附上危險評估表 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5468.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5488.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
法官沒有收到資料也沒有請各個機關協助補件要被害人自行提供暫時保護令收案核發的原則是一個月最長不可以超過兩個月但本案是明確的超過了兩個月這個是我上次站在這邊質詢的時候我們質詢的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5491.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5519.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們看到家庭暴力通報的案件一路攀升看這個數字到2024年已經接近18萬件在2016年開始的時候還不到12萬件到2024年的時候已經將近18萬件我們不禁要去思考我們到底漏接了多少人有多少人還在陰暗的角落哭泣 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5521.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5549.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
發生死亡被殺死被打死的案件要上媒體版面的恐怕只是在這些家暴案件當中冰山的一角對每一個被害人這個國家有無可迴避的責任因此我那時候問前任的部長前任的部長說他很關心他支持引進電子監控機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5551.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5566.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
他支持對高風險施暴者進行科技監管為了補強社會安全網他承諾要召集跨部會議他要在半年之內提出家庭暴力防治法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5567.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5586.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
但我今天看到召委排審這個案子我注意到兩件事情第一個到目前為止我們還沒有院版的修正草案我想要請教一下部長是有打算要提還是再給你們兩個月還是根本就沒打算要提 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5588.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5615.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我們要在這個現在已經剛剛在報告裡面有提到我們正在收集執行的細節未來在修法通過的時候我們會來提什麼時候提我們要點時間來需要多少時間演繹上次我問部長 部長說半年那是八月的時候講的嘛新的部長要多久半年從現在開始算半年嗎那會不會又換了一個部長新的部長又要半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5616.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5640.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這沒完沒了啊8月的時候告訴我要半年現在你又說從現在開始算再半年被害人要等到什麼時候被害人要等到什麼時候第二個我注意到的事情是你們對於電子監控機制衛福部似乎是持保留的態度是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5641.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5670.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
對 因為我們還要再把這個執行的細節弄清楚還要再研議嗎 對所以還需要半年嗎避免傷害到這個被害人我不知道其他衛防委員會的委員會不會想要等我也不知道還有多少潛在的被害人還有多少時間可以等我更不知道在這段等待的時間當中還有多少的悲劇要釀成我希望衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5671.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5687.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
把這些問題放在心裡面當你們在研議的時候當邱太元8月跟我說半年之內要提出草案的時候現在11月說要再半年說要再研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5689.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5717.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
事實上在外國相關的立法例當中立法院我們自己做了研究報告早就清楚的揭示西班牙是在2004年12月的時候就頒布有關於防止性別暴力的全面性保護措施把家庭暴力納入科技設備的監控範圍當中這樣子的立法例在歐洲非常多的國家紛紛仿效 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5719.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5738.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
法國在2019年12月的時候頒布關於打擊家庭暴力行動法律可以命受監控人佩戴器具追蹤定位位置的防接觸手環他們把它簡稱為BAR戴上那個BAR如果進入那個監控的範圍當中被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5739.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5767.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
他手上的接收器會發出警報嗶嗶嗶 嗶嗶嗶他會直接發出警報警告他說加害人已經進入了他被禁止的範圍當中這是2019年在做的2019年法國頒布了這項法律在後來的實踐上面對於學術研究單位對於法國的國會都非常密切的注意依照法國他們自己的平權部還有婦女權益保護部 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5769.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5792.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
他們自己委託研究機構的統計這部法律頒行了以後到2023年的年底保護超過了1800位1800位潛在的被害人因為這個BAR的措施有這麼多人受到保護法國的議員在法國國會當中針對這個事情提出質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5796.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5822.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
對於他們實際上面落實的狀況也清楚的發現了他顯著的效果你們說要關心加害人的隱私人身的自由這個我都同意但是兩個法益之間的balance我要提醒衛福部的是在其他國家當中藉由各式各樣要件的設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5823.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5847.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
以及實際上面的狀態你未必要讓他看到他在哪裡他只有個接收器我是被害人我看不到加害人在什麼地方隱私上面的考慮大幅降低但有一件事情應該讓被害人知道加害人進入了禁制令禁止的範圍當中提醒他因為不可能有那麼多人力一天到晚 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5847.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5870.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
派我們家報中心的人員或是派警察陪在被害人旁邊這是不可能的事用科技來解決問題你最起碼進入了那個範圍當中就發出警報讓他知道說現在可能有危險要發生了我知道啦就是在催促你們你們的說法應該都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5872.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5896.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
還是要再研議了我也不曉得衛防委員會的委員是不是會願意等但是我只是要提醒衛福部一件事情永遠不要忘記在你們等待的這段時間當中有多少人的生命安全正遭受威脅這是所有掌握權力的人不管是行政部門還是立法部門都要時時刻刻放在心裡面的事好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5897.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5926.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
謝謝委員我們在研議的過程當中會持續強化其他的措施來保護這個被害人謝謝黃國昌委員發言接下來請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那有請衛福部長石部長還有司法院跟法務部謝謝請石部長跟司法院法務部代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5927.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5952.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
三位好三位早安我們就今天當然是要談修法然後我不確定今天是不是要逐條也是不是要送出委員會那剛剛黃國昌委員所舉的案例法國這個案例我相信非常多認證委員辦公室應該都知道可是在這個案例之外我認為我們要談另外一個就是相關的配套措施所以想要跟各位討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5954.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5977.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
當然是因為很多的家暴殺妻案或者是各式各樣的家暴案導致於大家持續關心但是我認為如果配套不來談那我們還會遇到什麼困境尤其是有了科技化的工具之後如果沒有相關的配套其實只會給我們第一線的行政同仁還有社工同仁造成更多的困擾可不可以真的保護到所謂的被害人我們一起來看一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5978.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5999.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我想要問一下其實上一次在7月16的時候我們司法委員會已經排過一次審查也排過一次討論那當時我就提出一些問題喔問題包含以下幾個那你們之前包含第一個你們說你們有衛福部這邊有一個家庭暴力及性侵害防治推動小組每三個月會開一次跨部會會議那你們說7月這個案子爆發之後呢你們會再開會那據說 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6001.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6026.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
據我根據我知道下一次開會會是12月22號所以你們在7月的會議有五個結論相關五個結論就是強化第一線專業人的教育訓練研擬跨峽通報應變機制盤點形式程序銜接處理雙向加害跟被害案件的新指引還有完整心理輔導跟支持這是7月的結論我想問一下在相關結論推動到目前為止有沒有什麼一些比較新的進度可以跟國人報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6027.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6039.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
第一個我們有在這個召集過跨部會的會議包含這個警政司法等等大家再來討論過那麼除了前面這五個我們還強化了這個對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6043.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6069.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
通報人被害人的這個提供的訊息的完整度包含提升他如何去收集到更多的證據來提高他後面的能夠取得這個保護令的成功的機會讓他這個審理的速度法院審理的速度也能夠縮短加快這是我們當說第一個第二個會更廣泛的去宣導使用這個110的視訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6072.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6100.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個APP那個可以有即時性在有危機發生的時候可以即時性的通知這個警察機關那麼明確的了解這個被害人的確定的位置來即時的救援這個也我們也討論過去強化這個部分那另外呢也要製造這個指引這個有一些教材的開發來協助這個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6101.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6122.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
讓他知道察覺危機的發生進而能夠預防性的保護到自己這個也會做到另外在法務部或者司法院的部分我們也去強化這個橫向之間這個核定保護令的時候如何讓這個在地的警察機關能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6124.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6139.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
快速的得到這個訊息對 因為在地的第一線的警務同仁其實是會第一線直接保護我們的被害人好 沒有錯確實這些配套做完之後可能都還是會有相關案件不斷產生這本來就是社會的樣態跟常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6141.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6155.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
剛剛黃國昌委員有一個線性圖說通報案件逐年增加可是當我們辦公室去研究這個通報案件逐年增加其實有一件事情是因為衛福部在這幾年做了一個很重要的事情就是我們有社區防暴宣講時 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6156.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6178.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以以前可能很多被害人不知道原來這叫做家暴原來我可以通報原來國家可以保護我所以在社區防暴師的致力推動之下有越來越多的人意識到一我可以通報求救原來國家可以保護我二原來這不是只有我自己的事情三原來我被家暴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6178.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6207.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以我看到我們的通報數據逐年增加我認為這個是要以正視聽的並不是說各式各樣的樣態它的增加就必然是那個社會案件的變多所以如果我們仔細再去分析相關上升的數字我們辦公室的分析是根據你們當時在7月的時候保護司司長告訴我們說根據這個通報我們會做分級跟分流透過台灣親密關係暴力危險評估表 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6208.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6227.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
去做分流分出風險高低所以裡面大概會有將近10%是所謂高風險而這些高風險的家庭或者是相關被害人我們會立刻進場做積極的協助這是要勞煩現場的社工再來中低風險大概就是90%那現在衛福部跟相關單位有跟37個民間團體在做協力合作對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6231.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6255.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
也就是說我們看到這麼多13萬件就是到了20104年2015年是13萬件到了113年2024到了22萬件看起來好像將近增加了一倍可是我們其實做了風險分流的控管然後我們把適當的人力放到適當的案件上去應該是有實質的進展因為我們也認識非常多社區防暴師他們告訴我們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6256.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6275.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
在這個防暴宣講的過程當中除了他們自己的增能他們也發現更多社區裡面的家庭意識到這件事情原來是國家可以協助我的所以我認為我們在跟國人傳達這個通報數量上升的同時其實要把相關風險分級講清楚那也就是這樣所以回過頭來我還是要拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6277.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6302.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
衛福部這邊我們如何協助這些社區防暴師的做宣講可以更到位到更多的社區去那之前呂健的次長也有答應我們說在社安網2.0的部分我們要積極在這部分補足社工那如何協助社工我想後續我們一起努力因為時間有限我不要占用太多時間好那接下來看其實從衛福部這邊到司法院我們也看見工作的困境我覺得這也要讓國人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6303.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6323.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
司法院目前能够审审的法官大概有多少人每一位法官要扛多少件保护令申请案我们在7月质询的时候有一个家事法官郭耀明回复我们说一个法官一年要收200件通常保护令但那个法官身上同时还会有其他案件对不对所以对法官的负担很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6323.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6345.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
看到我投影片左手邊有一個通常保護令呢核發天數大概是52天然後暫時保護令是21天當時很多人就問啊為什麼要這麼久那當時你們告訴我們說一個有原額的問題還有就相關資料申請的問題喔那這中間的空窗怎麼處理我可不可以請司法院再說一下讓國人更清楚知道你們相關工作流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6346.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6361.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
是謝謝委員關於如何促進縮短這個核化保護令的這個時間點我們做了好幾種的方案來進行那第一個方案就是關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6363.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6385.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
保護令的一個市民證據的部分我們跟網絡連結起來那麼發了一些譬如說我們給診政署衛福部保護師發文然後讓他落實到第一線在協助申請保護令的時候依交報法第8條協助競訴在第一次或不證實由我們公家機構來協助這樣就不會讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6389.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6415.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
市民證據太晚以至於在核發有比較晚這是第一個第二個是我們內部的管考內部的管考在暫時保護令我們現在每一個月就快滿一個月就發這個催告這個以及檢查單由最後院長要核定第三個是我們持續一直開下個月要由我本人跟刑事廳長下個月12月嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6416.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6437.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
對12月繼續開再用這個線上跟所有的庭長法官等等來處理這個保護令速度的一個問題因為我們在審理的一個注意事項裡面有法官得依之前調取不是說一定要等當事人補正那這個法官依之前調取的速度就會更快 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6438.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6465.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那最後一個就是高風險高風險的部分我們就可以先不經開庭儘速在基本的市民夠了我們就儘速發這個暫時保護令因為通保令的時候可以依之前發暫時保護令先去保護人命那其中保護令的第二款禁燒令裡面就有一些相關細節可以保護那當然目前的保護只有禁止騷擾跟蹤跟接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6468.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6489.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
但如果將來有科技監控那可能要思考科技監控就是今天主席所在意的事情那我可不可以拜託主席因為相關科技監控的困境是這樣被害人他要不要同意這件事情或者是剛剛黃委員剛剛說的法國那個系統現在這個系統在台灣一 這個系統在台灣是沒有的我們現在的系統只有刑事監控的系統還有確保他如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6489.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6505.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
到了港邊到了岸邊他可能有逃離出境的問題所以這個監控就會這個系統就會Alert發出警告系統但是如果在相關保護令如果一被害人要不要同意這是第一個樣態第二個如果被害人不同意如何透過好的APP系統去保護他這也是另外一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6507.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6527.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
到底國外用的案例跟系統跟台灣現行的系統我認為落差很大如果我們貿然讓法條通過我認為相關的配套其實只會壓垮第一線的同仁而不見得可以真的保護到所有的被害者如果在國外它是雙軌系統刑事歸民刑事保護令歸保護令我認為現在這個在台灣是沒有的我可不可以拜託我們有機會再開一個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6528.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6545.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
例如說就科技專家來問他們可以怎麼協助相關行政單位再來就婦女團體兒權軟體人權團體如何兼顧自由跟人權第三警政署的同仁還有法務部的同仁衛福部的同仁後續的分工其實非常困難要拜託主席可不可以有機會再召開公聽會謝謝好謝謝陳培宇委員發言接下來請劉建國委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6561.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6590 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好謝謝主席有請石部長中廷長請石部長還有張師長張師長好三位早這個家暴受害者的心聲就是恕神恕絕我在這邊就8月6號有跟在衛福部也跟司法院應該我們這個法務部也都討論過目前保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6591.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6610.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這個花期的時間是不是可以盡速的去縮短但是根據保護師的這個資料普通保護令平均是50天暫時保護令是平均23天緊急保護令能當天發出但是當事人不能申請必須第三者就檢察官 警察機關或縣市主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6612.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6638.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
但這個現代婦女經紀會特別指出台北第一院這個一年的新收不包含在案的案件113年就有一萬四千多件平均下來一名法官可能就被分配到一千多案件嘛這坦白講這是很辛苦一件事情那我當時就特別指出說這個被害者開始申請保護令的時間其實是政治最危險的那個時段 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6640.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6655.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
因為最高度會激怒加害者的時間就是在這個點當時大家也都有認同這個都是不用再贅述的部分但是我為什麼還是在提醒那個時候就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6656.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6682.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個時間保護令要等最多還有五十多天以上的平均暫時保護令二十幾天緊急保護令當天能夠發出就好像只有可以救到緊急保護令的對象而已的受害者這是很奇怪一件事情嘛那8月6號討論完了之後希望可以加快但是坦白說各位可以回答我說有加快了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6683.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6705.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
哪一個階段的 普通保護令加快幾天暫時保護令加快幾天 有人可以答覆我嗎如果沒有 來 我再給各位看一些時間我是認定是一個 這是一個關鍵的事情啦關鍵的問題所在 這個問題如果不解決GPS再裝幾個 似乎好像沒有辦法解決這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6708.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6732.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
不然你們現在可以馬上打呼我嗎就是說縮短了嗎平均是縮短幾天在這個階段縮短幾天8月6號講的到現在已經足足將近三個月時間三個月的作業時間沒辦法讓我們不管普通保護令暫時保護令都可以因為相關的事件一而在災難上的發生然後督促我們政府相關機關可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6733.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6740.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
大家可以坐下來好好去檢討去應變把這個保護令的發起時間去縮短如果三個月過後都沒有顯然 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6742.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6770.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
坦白講我覺得這些事情還是會層出不窮的在持續發生而不是裝了多少個GPS可以去導正可以去改善可以去降低這樣的傷害這是第一件事情那第二件事情你看我們面對這麼大量的這個案件的數量過老的地方法院的法官要如何有效的去減輕壓力強化保護令流程縮短時間我想這個是一定是衛福部跟司法院你們必須去共同面對的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6771.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6788.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
而不是維持現狀讓法官面對家暴的暗骸詐騙的暗骸看不到盡頭而家暴受害者也可能也只能在這個恐懼中一直要等待這麼多天家暴令才可以下來那如果今天你們沒辦法打呼我是不是一個月內啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6790.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6806.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們再給一個月的時間 衛護部 司法院 法務部是不是大家可以好好坐下來 討論出一個如何縮短保護令花期的時間然後給衛法委員會 可以吧跟委員說明 確實以現在的案量來講這個法官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6807.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6834.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那個負荷很重所以我們之前考論的這個結論是去強化那個風險的辨識把那個高風險的個案先挑出來全部要一下子全部縮短是難度很高啦因為他的負荷太重案子太多了所以我們在強化前端那個高風險個案能夠先高度先先把那個最高風險的抓出來然後去強化是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6835.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6864.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
暫時保護令或緊急保護令來說短大概是這樣的概念去那次也有討論到這樣但是所謂的我們在一個時間的點譬如說一季裡面還是半年裡面你到底這樣的一個多少比例叫做高風險然後這個高風險你到底縮短不管暫時的保護令還是普通保護令到底縮短幾天有數據可以給我們做參考嗎如果有最好嘛 好不好 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6864.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6882.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們把數據整理一下好 謝謝部長好那另外一個 我也給部長還有各位長官看幾個案件這個都是相關的一些報導那第一個案件加班長嗆家女有保護令也沒有用也沒有用這個加錢再起訴疑神裁決這個續押這個案件 當然像是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6885.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6904.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個加埃人是在與加埃人產生前夕口角9月6號持棒棍到齊昧的加埃市市場的攤位搗毀冰箱等等等然後被警方逮捕移送並緊急申請保護令禁止男子靠齊昧攤位至少100公尺這個男子也被撕毀 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6909.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6936.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
但是又馬上到其妹的攤位那對家人說有保密有沒有用他還是被放出來9月9號隔三天而已他以探望母親為藉口連續兩次前往攤位的樓上住家然後在第二次探望離開時因為其妹不在攤位嘛並要求其妹員工轉達所前需求當場召聚然後他又涉嫌出院恐嚇要叫人做掉他們的員工等等等那當天警方拘報逮捕 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6939.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6965.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個家人移送羈押10月20號 嘉義地方法院認為攔指有繼續羈押的必要就裁定羈押 羈押三個月好 這是一個案子嘛你看喔 這個案子來講有保護令有沒有用 它還是被放出來了所以 在羈押三個月之後你們覺得這樣就導正了嗎 它就向善了嗎它就不會再去講說 有保護令有什麼用嗎也不可能啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6966.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6986.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
坦白講不可能 我講這個案例 你再看第二個案例金門家暴人女犯不怕被關再度這個瘋狂揮踢踹猛遭羈押這是去年的事情他去年發生被判決有期徒刑確定並執行完畢今年9月17日又再來一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6987.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6995.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 然後第二個案子加霸龍入獄關三個月 出獄一天後又衝往其妻的處處 違反保護令 備受威壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6998.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7020.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
連續這兩個案件 三個案件我要讓三位長官看一個數據 請大家看這個表格這是110年到113年 這四年就好了節節上升的申請保護令的這樣的一個相關的一些統計人數是逐年攀升 未滿保護令幾乎都是居易也就是說一日以上未滿60日佔了這四年的77.26%然後六個月以下是18.71% |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7026.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7047.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
剩下的是6個月以上到3年以下的這個區間有近4年全部僅4、3人剩下的6個月以上到3年以下的這4年裡面僅4、3人占不到1% 0.51啦然後尤其3年以下的這4年只有2個人只有2個人這個數據應該你們都有統計應該也會有這個數據嘛我要凸顯這個問題是說GPS很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7054.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7078.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
但是你看到這些數據之後 他們還是持續的委婉保護鏈的代價好像是很低啊 太低了 對不對一天到居59天的 是佔了高達七成八左右七成八左右 那一年以下剛剛特別已經講 我就不再贅述甚至這些好像是屢試不爽 沒你怕啦 沒你擔心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7079.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7108.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
極極拘役啊 極極一年下嘛 極極兩年下就對了而且到最後的比例三年以下 四年才有兩個人而已所以他不怕啦 不怕你怎麼處理你們要怎麼處理 能不能簡單到我也就是說家暴法的第61條顯然要嚇阻家暴的力道已經微不足道了啦數據會顯示嘛 昨年攀升 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7111.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7121.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
比例 區域的比例就這樣要不要看一下要不要回應我一下要不要朝向這個部分來做修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7124.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7145.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
一件事保護你於無誤吧 所以你就不要客氣啊你不就應該將對法律的本質去做 看怎樣大幅度去做調整還是不能調 不能調就是竹簾就持續攀升然後那個區域的1到59天的比例就是這麼高 不該啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7148.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7176.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
接待召委排這個是非常重要但是如果你看到這些數據然後加報五六十一條裡面又不去做修正你的本質永遠都不會改變嘛跟委員說明今天的委員的版本也會有針對違反保護令罪去提高他的刑責那也許可以來討論看看提高有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7177.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7194.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
然後判的法官是怎麼處理 是這樣子你們怎麼遇到這個問題好像都沒辦法答我然後你看看我看看 大家互相看看法官裁決裁判的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7201.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7227.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
來 請說明主席站上來了 快點好 是 謝謝委員那其實關於違反家暴法的部分的話因為現在目前為止違反保護另罪是屬於比較輕罪的部分那就誠如委員這邊所講的目前大部分的那個刑度都是落在德意科法金的情況底下那只有比較特殊個案的情況下才會判得比較重那這邊我們都是尊重個案法官的裁處那以上是簡短的對嘛 就是尊重個案法官的裁處沒有錯家中沒有用法官就是要輕判 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7228.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7249.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
邏輯上就這樣嘛 現狀就這樣嘛這個樣態就這個樣子嘛所以你跟廳長整個GPS也不好啊是 報告委員 我剛剛在前一位委員我有報告我們陸續由我們廳長親自跟所有一線在裁判的刑事庭法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7250.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7274.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我們的刑事廳長跟我配合一起跟他們做這個所謂的研習跟相關的意見溝通讓民意跟委員表達的意見讓他們充分的更去審酌這個保護被害人的必要性跟刑責的相當性當然這個沒有拘束但是這樣的一個也就所謂的研習會或者這樣的促進會有相當的影響我們剛剛委員有講我們在今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7279.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7299.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
今年的戰保令已經就是以前要二十幾天現在已經加速了兩天多這個當然不足不足以向你們報告但我們還是繼續有很多的方案來促進謝謝好啦 你說聽起來說不足以報告你自己講的也是也心虛虛嘛對不對那你還是報告了嘛這兩天多嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7300.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7326.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以是這樣啦 我覺得我們面對問題就是要解決問題大家都會講嘛那我們是不是可以真的加快嘛然後你們是不是可以趕快做下來到底這事情怎麼去做因應嘛然後加保61條的這一個部分是不是要要有所積極的因應琢磨去做修正嘛我是不是請部長 請相關主管能不能做下來兩個星期內研議啊這個加快速度啦 可不可以 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7327.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7346.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
兩個星期啦 別再拖啦 8月6號講到現在了這兩件事情 保護令的縮短 還有這一個行者的部分 可以吧好 謝謝 已經答應了 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請王育民委員發言我還沒宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7354.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7362.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好謝謝主席我們有請衛福部部長司法院少家庭廳長還有法務部檢察司司長一起上好我也好今天討論這個家暴法的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7372.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7397.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
法條的修正案主要真的是我們看到現在對於這些被害者的保護不足那第一個我要問的就是現在違反保護令的這個犯罪人數平均大概有2548人但是申請羈押只有178件平均只有7%那裁定羈押又更低了131件只有5.1% |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7399.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7421.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
基本上會違反保護令的這個其實對於被害人來講他真的是心生恐懼而且呢這個加害人顯然是是法令與無誤有保護令但是他還不遵守那為什麼第一個要問的為什麼申請羈押的比例如此之低來誰要回答這一題法務部來 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7423.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7443.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那跟委員報告就是委員的這個數據有關那個案件數的部分那它其實是包含一般的函送案件跟現行犯移送的案件所以那大部分現行犯移送案件它是比較嚴重的案件所以說我們的那個申請羈押會在這個現行犯的案件移送的時候來做進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7444.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7450.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
目前本部經過統計在今年跟去年來比較去年一整年的針對違反加爆法的羈押件數是274件去年今年的1到9月已經到344件所以其實是有逐步的提升針對相關的檢察官的教育訓練還有就是我們跟相關部會之間資訊的連結我們也都來強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7469.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7487.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
以這個把這個事證收集的更完整之後然後作為檢察官他辦案的一個參考依據以上報告這個申請羈押的比例過低我覺得其實就是檢察官他們的意識不足而且他也輕忽這個違反保護令他對於這個被害人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7488.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7506.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這樣的一個傷害跟心理的恐懼喔我們來看一下今年的這個土城的案件發生在土城的這個案件我覺得我們中華民國的政府應該不允許有這樣子的情況出現喔已經拿到保護令的被害人竟然會在街頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7506.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7524.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
就是被這個加害人持刀行兇刺死我們的法律我們的政府機關我們的公權力我們保護不了一個拿著保護令的被害人這個真的是要好好徹底的檢討這一連串的從警政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7526.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7547.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
移送到這個檢察官之後檢察官竟然是無保請回這個人已經是違反了保護令那為什麼你們在審理這樣的案件的時候檢察官沒有任何的這樣的一個意識或者是想要深入去理解檢察官不能去調閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7548.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7562.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就是之前的這個人到底有沒有違反的紀錄嗎不能去調閱相關的這一些社工在處獄的這一些報告嗎有沒有參採是不是太輕率太草率了這個案件你們沒有去好好的檢討有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7566.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7586.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
跟委員報告就是這個案件發生之後那我們內部有做一些相關檢討也跟這個衛福部這邊都有參與相關的會議那主要就是說有關這個資訊的收集的部分那可能當時有一些落差那導致蔣官他在在這個詢問被告的時候他沒有完整充分有關這個加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7587.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7610.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
過去的這個違反家暴令的一些相關的記錄資料所以是太草率嘛我覺得檢察官在承辦這類的案件他們可能覺得不是很重要的案件他手上很多他沒有把這個市委是重要要去辦的案件嘛那這樣子就很容易因為他的不夠積極的辦案他就疏忽了很多的證據啊應該羈押而沒有羈押而導致這個悲劇發生嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7611.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7626.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那個時間就是7月6號他無保請回 7月7號就發生慘案就是這樣的一個情況嘛所以我要求這個部分 這個法務部一定要好好去檢討就是說怎麼樣未來 我在這次的修法裡面有提到把被害人的陳述意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7627.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7653.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
就是檢察官一定要參裁我不管你們支不支持這樣的立法但是你在實務上一定要做到這一點我覺得往往你們在懲辦相關案件的時候都忽略了這個被害人他的狀態 他主述的一些意見你如果真的好好聽的話你會覺得已經非常嚴重了旁邊的友人已經知道他是多麼的惡劣結果來到檢察官手上他覺得一點都不重要 烏包請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7654.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7672.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
這個就是一個很嚴重的資訊落差跟對案情的一個判斷就是完全失準所以這個部分我要求你們應該要好好的來處理接下來我們看一下這一次其實還有一個很重要的就是被害人可不可以主動知道加害人在哪裡這樣的一個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7673.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7694.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那這一個事情我看了你們通篇的大家的報告之後大家說方向上好像是對的可是大家有很多的可是就是最好不要是我主管最好不要是我來做大家感覺又是推來推去那剛剛部長你在回應的時候說這個修法還要半年你們才提得出版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7695.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7721.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
有需要這麼久的時間啊那如果需要這麼久的時間我要問的是普城的悲劇如何不再發生這一段的空窗期你沒有任何法令的措施請問這一些的被害人他如何知道加害人已經接近他請問你們要用的是什麼措施如果沒有你還可以拖個半年180天這樣的空窗期再出一件事情是不是通通都要下台負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7724.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7746.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
跟委員報告啦因為這個要修法我們還是嚴謹啦當然嚴謹但是拖半年會不會太離譜了但是其他的措施還是需要去強化我們還是持續的在強化你要如何強化在這一段修法完成的空窗期我就問一個問題如何讓被害人知道說加害人在他附近你們可以提出示警跟預警怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7748.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7775.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
这个我们要再研究一下看这个怎么处理这个因为这都有涉及到人生的自由行动跟隐私的问题所以就不处理吗所以就不用做吗我们会来研议看怎么做我必须讲我们现在所有的政府机关今天委员为什么纷纷提出修法就是你现在保护令不足而且悲剧都已经发生了那你们还可以缓如牛布的修法说半年以后再提版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7777.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7801.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這個就是沒有把它當一回事嘛有在重視這件事情嗎如果有在重視這件事情怎麼需要半年的時間才可以提出修法的方案呢趕快部會 趕快互相去開會這件事情今天才發生嘛 已經質詢多久了今天是召委才排這個案子你們知道土城那個悲劇已經多久了當時大家說 這個方向很好我們也覺得可以往這個方向做 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7802.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7824.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
結果呢今天各部會報告各寫各的沒有人要單起來做這件事情就是推來推去啊這件事情到底誰該負責誰主責這個修法工作部長是你嗎還是法務部我們會來主責這個修法啦那就加快這個半年絕對沒有辦法接受啦你可以加多快我們努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7826.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7845.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你们应该在两个月之内赶快提出来吧其他的这个做法我们还是会去精进修法的部分我们努力来提不能拖到半年太久了配套还是需要讨论的部长你不是讲究很有效率吗怎么遇到这种修法你就没有效率了我们修法一向有效率可是这涉及到这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7846.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7873.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
趕快開會啊趕快去研議啊你們現在最大的問題應該是推來推去又沒有人想要擔這件事吧這可能才是最大的問題最後我問你這個兒少專責單位的事情基本上這個方向我是肯定的因為之前我就已經跟呂宏基教授大家極力在倡議那這個專責單位即將要成立非常的同意但是你的組織規模是重點了你知道日本是多少人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7874.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7892.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
510人他下轄在哪裡人家是下轄在首相之下所以日本的規模跟他的成績是比我們大那部長你有沒有這個概念我們的兒少廳我們的兒少署我們到底要多少人你心目中的規模現在是多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7893.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7917.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我心目中我们现在在盘点所有的业务你不可以长出一个几十人哦不会啦那就太离谱了至少应该是百人以上的规模吧你说要从胚胎就要开始啊那你应该就是要一个更完整的架构好不好他会有这个从健康政策的拟定开始所以他的人员编制就应该是一个大数不是一个小小的数 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7917.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7945.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
到目前我們的業務的整合跟未來的這個規劃都會超過百人規模以上吧我們會努力來爭取一定要百人規模以上你要從胚胎就開始照顧這是你講的所以就必須是一個有規模的數好不好對好謝謝我們往這個方向來爭取好謝謝謝謝王育民委員發言現在宣告待會邱政軍委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘接下來請蘇清泉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7951.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7959.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
謝謝主席 那我請石部長請石部長還有我們中拼長還有保護部的張師長拼長跟師長 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7968.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7991.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
部長 我今天這麼聽下去我們衛福部好像不是這個法的主責單位我看你們都是做末段而已啊前面發生 發生問題啊 有人傷亡啊 站起來啊你們也死不勝利啊所以你們都是後段 我不是在善後部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7994.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8022.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
當然不是跟後段其實從前段我們就開始努力了對於這種家暴意識的宣導通報機制的建立還有後段社工如何介入協助然後到保護令發生之後的陪伴這些我們都是涉獵在其中我們看就在我們東港發生的家暴叫做暴案 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8023.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8043.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
不然檢查就來了後來之後就做筆錄筆錄之後做錯的或是去派出所做之後他就上地檢署上地檢署有的是韓送有的是南方黨主要RK現在去到地檢署可能檢察官問問之後檢察事務官問了檢察官附訊有可能就上訓練訓練之後法官要保護你們要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8051.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8071.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 保護令出來了沒有 保護令不要緊出來了保護令出來了 這個保護令是交給誰去執行我們 廳長 廳長你來回答一下警察 警察委屬吧來來來 警察委屬 報告委員會有報告嗎 要怎麼執行是警察執行 還是你們法務部的人執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8074.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8098.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
保護令合法以後我們要24小時內立即送達給警察機關的加防官同時送達給當地的保護的家庭暴力防治中心那保護令的執行在加爆法21條有好幾種方案那其中如果涉及財產什麼的當然是由我們的執行處去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8099.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8116.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那如果是要帶同進去取物品的也是警察機關進去所以有幾個但是保護人命最重要的是給加防官就是警察機關接著要不要做庇護單位的相關庇護的是所以你是交到各個分局去 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8117.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8132.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
警察分局去了是警察分局裡面分局還是派出所因為夠交房官設在分局設在分局那人力配置是夠嗎第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8133.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8155.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我這次修法是希望用電子絞料啦 手銬啦就讓它 你給它含這一大堆它造出來 你就要有警示警示就有一個科控中心 科控中心是放在哪裡是屏東放在哪裡是法務部本身 高檢署本身要有科控中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8155.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8173.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
客戶中心發生這些人遭遇 遭遇被害做的可能像這個發生的事情客戶中心是在統治什麼人不像韓劇在做一個保護官去就讓他制止跟手銬我們都有這個機制吧客戶中心是多數人他的設備是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8177.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8204.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
要招標的事情指定廠商等等我不知道啦然後這個監控設備八十幾套有六十套五十套都在維修中然後我這次要求就是說要怎麼去通知那個被害者叫他關照啊有可能去校啊還要來啊往那個方向那你這個被害者都不知道嘛像那個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8206.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8232.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
死者跟他們的遺憾給我提示就給我提示那就是他什麼都不知道啊碰到他就給我提示啊這是很恐怖的事情耶 廷長是 報告委員我先就兩個執行保護令的回答剛剛那個我們第一個馬上通知加王關他在分局那麼他們都會落實到派出所馬上到 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8232.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8253.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
加害人那边去交付保护令宣读告诫然后同时让他签执行书这个会立即送为我们法院我们会去监督有没有执行这是第一个部分但详细有关这个执行的警察人力有需要的话可能要请我们的先进就是警政署这边说明警政署可以跟我详细我感觉这都俐落了 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8256.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8280.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
是 這是第一部分那第二部分有關於這個剛剛委員所關心的這個科控的問題我們大家都持肯定但是有待我們整個相關部會整合研究一個剛剛所有的疑問那些去把它整合出來你科控中心 我看是掛在高田宿啦高田宿就高雄啊 屏東就高雄啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8280.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8292.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為這個是民事保護令的禁止接近保護人命的科控跟我們預防逃亡的刑事科控它在制度是不同的那這個呢 這個傷亡率很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8296.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8303.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
所以國外也有這樣的制度我們西班牙 韓國都比我們更先進你現在科控中心在僱傭你說九點數就僱傭僱傭是要通知黨黨 通知民眾是要通知 是有人立法那個保護官去 他有公權立法他可以制止他可以上手銬衛福部的人都沒辦法衛福部都是在善後而已警察機關 警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8325.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8346.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
委員好 委員剛剛垂詢到的這個有關我們這個加防官的部分全國大概現在各分局原則上會配置1到2名依照人口數每10萬人配置1名執行加保令這部分 譬如說剛才司法院所說的法官核准以後我們的保護令會通締分局的加防官 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8347.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8350.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以說用科技的用GPS的不管一定要通知被害的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8366.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8387.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
被那些人陷了一招被那些人看到說這褲子來啊來啊來啊他就關照啊我剛才站在車子上已經痠了這最快不然你被槍打到你暈死了他就都失去理智了嘛法官在跟他賣 又一回輸現在看到保護人又越上去看到又越抓狂就看到每件案件都這樣嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8389.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8406.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
用科技 我們的科技在進步嘛 配置做得好這個鼻子這裡要給他 看他要不要手機聯絡 還是要給他裝備說這個 這些 這些加害者 現在在哪裡 靠近你那裡他看到 他想 他想什麼我們都是外人 我們都搞不清狀況 不過這 一直來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8414.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8421.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
不然這樣你看大家牽涉到太多單位了啦每一關都零零落落啦這補貼有時間夠了六分鐘而已齁這齁 要去統合啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8430.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8458.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
你是主轴单位 你在那统合这我们会负起这个责任来讨论因为这个执行细节真的需要更详细的了解到底要不要警示加害人的位置还是只是对被害人发出警讯因为单纯发出警讯不了解方位能不能达到保护的效果那没好 那没好所以一定还要让他有方位然后他到底怎么样来执行这里面有一些细节确实我们要讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8460.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8485.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這件事是要我們蘇化部也要參與啊不然你只站在一間房子裡點蚵仔麵線在那裡點肉雞 用手洗的我所有的聽到都說只設計出來都在點蚵仔麵線而已這差太多了吧柏定 這次你主持你來打起來 好不好要給我們一點時間討論啦好 加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8491.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8513.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好 謝謝蘇清泉委員發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言主席好 我們請石部長好 邱委員好部長好 還是一樣的問題啦就我們今年8月6號我們在這邊檢討保護令的問題當時你有在現場嗎8月6沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8519.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8540.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
沒有啊當時的我們的邱部長答應說半年之後他要提出版本那您在9月1號上任那我您上任之後有參與這個違反家暴令的加害人這個要裝電子監控的討論嗎11月份3號11月3號我主持這個會議有主持結果勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8542.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8558.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
就是主要把一些這個跨部會大家看看怎麼樣加強這個合作我們有做出一些共識所以當天開會的都是跨部會的對因為當時邱部長是說一個月就要這個跨部會的會議要開 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8559.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8587.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
半年內要提出修法當時我們看一下公報司法院說支持又說國外也有這樣的電子監控警政署代表也說有這樣的監控應該對被害人的安全是比較有及時的一個保障教育部的代表也說了有預警系統對被害人當然是會更好法務部的代表也說法務部尊重我們衛福部的策劃原則上各部會都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8588.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8602.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
支持家暴高風險實施電子監控那我不知道你們的進度到現在是已經三個月過去了你只開了一次會那到底是草案有沒有在寫有沒有在準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8606.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8634.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
跟委員補充在8月6號之後我們連續開了三次其中討論到有關修法也就是要把電子監控入法這件事情當時部會的討論是說這個方向是可以但是相關的配套需要更多的研究所以我們基於涉及到它需要研究所以在相關的法條上面因為還沒有把完整的配套你沒有研究什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8634.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8654.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
是 就是對於這樣的一個電子監控在台灣執行對被害人的一些權益是不是會受到一些影響那我們也希望參採國外的一些經驗再來做一些經濟被害人怎麼會有影響呢如果是要雙向的話被害人他基本上他根本不是 你們不會現在科技這麼發達你們不會找好一點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8657.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8670.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我們對這個加害人的監控我們都是支持但是對這個雙向監控的時候就會涉及到被害人的自由跟隱私的他就會被監控了 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8671.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8687.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那當然我們入法之後如果說被害人他自己不願意當然我們尊重啦我覺得我們還是可以尊重但是法條這個我覺得我們這些這個規定我覺得應該是可以同步來執行吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8688.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8709.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
就是說如果是在這個當然未來如果要實施一定是要被害人同意的這個先決條件一定是這樣可是只有被害人的同意是不夠的那怎麼樣才夠到時候的執行細節要怎麼個執行法不要讓他產生干擾他的生活所以給你們半年時間了嘛對不對你們半年都沒有在做區副長8月6號答應我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8714.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8719.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
可是您9月1號就上任了您可以撐半年嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8721.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8747.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我盡我的力量來做如果半年又換人我們是不是要重來我們會盡快來不然我希望你趕快啦你趕快破了這個魔咒你就不會你就會留下來好不好我們努力來做對啊因為我講真的因為前面已經說過了其他部會都贊成當然你們可以因為半年時間我覺得可以做很充分的討論我希望這個速度加快了好不好好那另外我再請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8749.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8767.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
兒家屬到底是怎麼樣的一個單位我想這兩天在討論這個議題丟出來各界都有很多期待那大家都認為是因應營少子化產生的新單位又看到你說這個是負責配他到兒童嘛那又有報導說是18歲以下都要負責那現在他到底要負責哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8769.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8792.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個原則上他跟少子化的政策是另外一件事情我們是針對兒童的照顧去強化兒童是幾歲到幾歲那兒童如果是以我們醫學的定義的話那兒童的18歲以下都稱為兒童啦那原本不是社家署裡面就有屬於18歲以下的這個單位了嗎我說社家署裡面不是就有了嗎不是負責18歲以下的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8794.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8817.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
到底這兩個單位你要怎麼去區分我們現在對兒童的業務有散在在不同的單位比如說有涉及到兒童的健康促進預防保健的業務會涉及到兒童保護的業務會涉及到兒童福利或者是托嬰托育的業務所以它是散在在不同的單位所以未來我們會把這些業務集中成為一個專責的單位才能夠統合 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8819.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8838.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
把他整個統合那他是屬於衛福部還是屬於屬於教育部因為這邊有牽扯到好幾個部會吧對所以那到底他是屬於衛福部還是因為他算是一個您下屬的一個機關嘛對不對那如果他要去整合其他部會你覺得他有這個能力有這個能量嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8839.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8860.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
他要去協調沒有問題就是說他這個專責單位除了本身衛福部的業管的業務整合之外他也成為一個單一的專責的窗口來協助做跨部會之間的協調整合好 那我希望也看到你們能夠有一個好的規範出來謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8869.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8871.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
謝謝邱政軍委員 現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9730.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9753.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
好 繼續開會 接下來請圖權級委員發言好 謝謝主席那先請我們石部長還有我們警政署副署長請石部長跟李副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9756.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9783.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
土葛委員好好 謝謝部長那我先請問一下我們警政署我們李副署長我們警察是我們家暴防治法裡面的裡面的算是執法防治人員嗎是的那我請問一下那如果像我們執行家暴的這些防治人員如果沒有在24小時之內通報當地主管機關那這樣是不是有處分的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9785.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9799.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
剛委員報告 警政署對於家暴案件的處理都定有相關的SOP如果沒有在實現內通知相關的單位的話那依照規定是有處罰的 處分 要處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9800.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9822.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
據我了解好像是會罰款就是6000元以上 3萬元以下我們看一下我們在110年我們看一下這個圖在110年到113年這段時間你看我們從民國87年開始實施到現在已經有27年我們看了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9826.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9849.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
110年到113年這一段期間有8件沒有在24小時之內通報這8件裡面就有5件是我們警察在知悉有疑似家暴事件可是並沒有在24小時之內提出那這一部分我們是不是警政署這一部分沒有再加強因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9850.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9878.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我們要知道如果這個延誤通報萬一發生家暴事件讓我們這些受害人受到身體受到傷害甚至生命受到影響那這一部分警政署有沒有什麼方式說讓這個事情能夠降低那有發生這樣子的問題如果真的因為你延誤通報那讓我們受害者遭受到這些迫害那警政署要怎麼負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9879.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9895.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
剛剛委員報告警政署針對這個發生的個案一定會做個案的案例那這些案例呢都會透過我們的長訓或者各種有關婦幼相關的訓練會做這個案例的檢討另外呢就是除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9896.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9922.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
處理的同仁他除了接受行政的划算以外他還要另外接受行政處分那所以在整個通報的這個紀律的部分警政署都是持續在做要求那也可以從這些案件來看我們目前統計的趨勢是每年都在下降也就是說這個受理報案的員警他們有依規定通報的部分我們都有相關的統計資料也在做改進當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9923.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9950.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以希望警政署也去了解一下為什麼實施二十幾年居然還是這個事情還是會有那你因為你延誤通報造成這些受害者萬一真的發生身體受到傷害或者生命送到危險這不是警政署去罰錢就能夠解決的問題所以我希望還是要加強來宣導來輔導然後告知我們這些執法人員是的 沒問題 這個我們會持續加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9950.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9974.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好 那也請問一下部長那剛剛我們有提到你看87年時事到現在我們這三年有八件然後我們發現這八件裡面有五件都在高雄那你們有瞭解說為什麼高雄這部分的比例是比較偏高而且據我們瞭解它罰6000到3萬元當然我們知道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9976.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9995.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個處罰罰錢它只是一個手段並不是我們的目的那我們看高雄每次都罰六千結果罰六千它這個層出不窮結果彰化一次罰兩萬多塊結果發生以後就沒有再發生這是不是跟處罰太輕是不是也有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9998.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10013.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
跟委員報告我們會再進一步的了解這高雄市他在這個執行上的一些考量是什麼那我們會來強化這個跨縣市之間對於這種違反規定的裁罰的一致性來做一個共識這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10015.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10037.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
對 今天會提出就是希望我們要如何去督促畢竟這個已經14 20幾年了那雖然好像是有下降可是我覺得這24小時內通報是應該做得到的並沒有什麼技術上面的困難可能是宣導不夠還是我們執行人員對這一方面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10039.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10050.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對這方面的重視因為你一定要知道可能其中一件你延後通報造成一個不可挽回的事情這都不是我們願意見到的好 這我們強化這個溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10052.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10064.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好 那我再請問一下 這可能要請我們司法院我們在法官或檢察官要求完成加害人處遇計畫可是他卻拒絕報到我們根據衛福部有統計這三年有高達2231個家暴的加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10075.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10083.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
他拒絕完成儲育計畫那針對這部分如果加害人拒絕完成有沒有什麼處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10087.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10116.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
報告委員 發了保護令以後那這個效率是等同不依規定去執行這個處理計畫是違反保護令罪就是屬於要移送檢察官偵辦那可是據衛福部統計有2231個家暴 加害人他拒絕報到那我們真正事實上有起訴的有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10119.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10119.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這個起訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10124.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10148.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就我们事务上了解的确有一些是这个违反保护令之后移送然后要做起诉那在这个侦查阶段还有审判阶段法官或检察官认为说在执行的程序刑事程序上面还有一些瑕疵也就是说那你的送达以及他知不知道这些部分好像还有一些可以补除所以因此他没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10149.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10169.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
進行所謂的裁定或者是做處分我想這個部分的確在溝通上面有時候將來整個配套上面可以再來做精進所以當然我們知道可能法院在審理這些案件它有它很多面向的考量當然它可能主觀認為說它可能不是故意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10170.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10198.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
但是我們現在重點就是說我們儲育計畫目的就是要讓加害人接受輔導接受治療那可是你看這三年居然就有兩千多個那我們衛福部主管單位有沒有想過怎麼樣去怎麼樣子去降低這一部分為什麼加害人拒絕接受儲育計畫這個比例人數這麼的多是不是我們衛福部還有司法單位有沒有什麼方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10199.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10221.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
怎麼樣來去降低我們這個部分有打算每年我們都有一個研討會 個案研討會那在個案研討會上面我們把這個議題當作一個主要的議題找相關網絡大家來做一些討論包括我們執行保護令的加寒處理計畫的縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10222.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10250.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
還有這些機構還有我們的司法院以及加防中心我們整體來做一些討論看看有沒有一些精進的方式包括執行的方式有沒有做一些調整對啊 雖然說這2000多個很多他未必起訴違反保護令但是我們真的一定要想辦法怎麼樣去降低他為什麼會去拒絕做這個儲育計畫我們應該要提出一個實際怎麼樣去精進改善的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10253.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10279.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們再來跟我們整個網絡討論一下提出更精進的方法我希望後面我們衛福部能夠針對這部分提出一些改善的計畫好 我們來協調大家一起來好 那我再請問一下部長在113年家暴事件通報案件你看多達22萬多件那受庇護協助的人數有8000多人那隨行子女有600多人那 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10280.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10306.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
據我們了解我們看到這個縣市政府應該要提供庇護宅但是我們看衛福部這些資料目前我們22個縣市只有14個縣市有中長期的庇護宅那也就是說有8個縣市是完全沒有的那這一部分我們有沒有改善計畫預計多久能夠完成布建全台跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10307.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10334.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
有緊急的庇護所這大概都比較比較充足啦緊急的這是短期的那至於中長期的確實不是每個縣市都有所以我們已經有請這個各縣市衛生各縣市政府來協助那麼增加這個中長期的庇護所的這個因為這個不夠普及的話就會造成執行上還要離家不方便等等這些會來會來改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10335.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10349.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
對啊我們希望說我們衛福部還是提出個計劃你至少在每個縣市都要有一個中長期的屁股財好這部分我們請衛福部來盡快來研究看怎麼去加強改善好謝謝謝謝圖全基委員接下來請盧憲宜委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10366.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10379.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
主席有請部長請時部長部長有兩個問題問你那你知道那個暴力的那個這個period有幾個period嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10381.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10407.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
家庭暴力的那個整個那個循環啊你有聽過這個循環嗎循環喔這請委員指教OK它就是有一個緊張期爆發期跟蜜月期那常常發生是在爆發期那其實每個個案的狀況不一樣這也是今天我們要開這個會的一個最主要的原因就是申請保護令的實效性那我剛剛翻了衛福部的資料就是說很像看到我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10408.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10430.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
暴力的話是0.37是針對一般國人原住民的話是0.87就是高了一倍左右可是我在看世界的資料的時候很像這個低估很多你覺得低估的原因是什麼目前世界的資料大概是4%我們台灣的研究是0.37%將近10倍你覺得低估的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10431.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10454.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這還是在這個這個意識到跟通報這兩個部分當然是因為可能被害人認為我報了也沒有用所以我覺得今天的用意就是感謝昭偉用這個就是其實我們的國人可能感受不到我們目前政府的努力所以我們希望說從保護令這個地方或者電子電子監控這邊來努力以下我請我們的中廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10463.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10486.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
廳長我希望說就是我們在做一些預期的時候你要知道說大概遇害的這個時間點是什麼時候因為其實我們常常發現是在當下或者說出庭後的下午或者是前一天就是後一天大概就是這樣一個情況所以可能要做一個你要把保護令縮短這個時間的時效性的一個證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10488.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10507.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
把他提出來不然之前的保護令要52天現在說23天那我們有人修法是5天可是就被害人的角度會是我的希望會是當下就有保護令你覺得呢是報告委員您剛說的我們都同意目前我們也做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10508.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10526.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
系統性的一個規劃跟研究以及效能推動我跟委員報告一下也就是說我們現在已經促進了網絡在法律明定第八條加爆法那個我們所有網絡協助當事人申請保護令的時候他們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10527.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10545.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
協助收集證據資料附上來那我們法院也製作了這個例稿後面也有例示要哪些事證那這個一進來法官就可以不該停核發這種戰保令這個時間就可以收到我們希望讓受害人能夠及時得到我們國家的保護好不好好 謝謝 謝謝廳長有請張師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10557.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10568.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
當然我們目前的努力是往那個電子監控的方向那你覺得多少公尺多少的距離你覺得這個電子監控是有效的或者是說可以遏止我們的加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10570.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10594.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
跟委員報告就是每個個案的狀況不同那究竟多少公尺才能夠保護到這個被害人的我剛看了南韓的資料是他是100公尺可是有人就笑他說100公尺20秒就可以跑到了那所以我們在合理在計算這個距離的時候是不是在你在研議這個這樣的一個規模的時候是不是要把這個算進去然後以後我們無論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10594.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10612.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
以後的數量 這個經費是不是可以早點來規劃讓我們國人知道說確實法務部在這方面的一個這方面的努力可以嗎是 謝謝OK 謝謝最後我請我們的李副署長請李文章副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10619.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10645.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
委員好對 我們看到就是這次的7月7號這個案子就是發生在開庭的下午所以我們有一個訴求就是說能不能讓個案是安全出庭到安全返回居所在那個人力的警力這個佈置那我們回想到4年前2021年的1月21號有一個妻子跟律師就是辯護律師被他的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10646.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10668.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
就加害人用車子撞死在法院的前面時隔四年我們國家還是一點進展都沒有希望這個被害人就是不能白白無辜送死我希望這個部分警政署這邊可以就出庭出庭後到安全住所這樣的一個警力的佈置我希望能夠及早規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10671.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10690.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
有關刑事案件或者交報案件被害人出庭還有出庭完後回家的部分目前警政署都是採取協助的性質只要相關的社工也好或者是被害人本身他們提出需求的話大概都會規劃警力來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10692.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10719.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那相關的宣導的措施我們也都在推行那目前在執行當然還是有一些需要精進的地方那大部分案件如果被害人有提出這樣的需求的話警方是會配合來執行希望廣為周知讓被害的人可以感受到國家的保護讓他們在被害人加害人暴力的脅迫當下他們還有一個可以安慰的出口這個部分我們會配合來執行謝謝三長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10723.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10733.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
謝謝盧憲宜委員發言請吳思瑤委員發言請時部長 請中廳長然後法務部檢察司張司長還有李副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10752.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10777.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
布朗辛苦了有一句話說亂世用重點亂世用重點下一句是什麼我已經寫在上面了公心才是上策亂世用重點是不是有絕對的效益我剛剛正從司法法治委員會氣慘吁吁地趕來因為司法法治委員會今天有個主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10778.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10803.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
就是防治詐騙其實是全民共識甚至詐騙的犯罪是全球的公敵全球都在面對這個嚴峻的司法案件的挑戰我們要有效的去前端預防跟後端的懲治但是如果用邊形啊今天司法法治委員會的主題是說要不要學新加坡把詐騙也納入邊形 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10806.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10834.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
來執行我剛剛秀了一個PVT新加坡用鞭刑現在是要擴大把詐騙納入鞭刑台灣是不是要學是今天有立委的倡議但是我們來看新加坡這個國家他用鞭刑很久鞭刑這個制度從英國殖民時期留下來或者是一些回教國家他們有他們宗教的因素他們持續沿用現在的先進國家是很少在使用因為他違反了國際的人權公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10836.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10863.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是如果說邊形是有用的話其實新加坡在國際的治安安全屏蔽裡頭其實台灣的成績是優於新加坡的台灣第四新加坡全球第十所以我說亂世用重點有用嗎或是甚至因此在要趕快懲罰犯罪的前提之下就去亂世用亂點我認為讓人權走回頭路這是不應該的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10865.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10879.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以我從司法法治委員會這個時空跳到這裡來當然我們今天在衛華委員會討論的是科技設備的監控要不要擴大用在防治家暴的案例我認為當然都有同樣的面向我們要一起去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10880.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10894.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
亂世用重點有效嗎攻心才是上策有效的診斷犯罪者的心理有效的在前端預防才是我們討論政策更嚴謹更系統性的一個切入點本期是這樣認為下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10896.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10911.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以說我們來看看大家都防治家暴家暴法到今年應該是27年嗎所以呢你們前陣子也開了一個擴大的跨部會會議希望能夠更精進相關的作為那防治家暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10911.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10935.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我在司法法治委員會也提過很多次事前的防範應當優於事後的重罰或者是兩者要並重不能夠簡化為某一端比較重要天平要保持平衡甚至我認為前端的預防更為重要那我們以保護令這件事情我們對不起我們先來講這個家暴案類法務部或是司法院在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10937.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10962.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
家暴這10年的案件的統計裁定人數如果我有誤你們可以糾正有罪判決是68%而有罪判決當中是判拘役就是相對比較輕的是佔了41%左右6個月以下刑期16%6個月以上比較重的是8% |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10966.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10991.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
另外还有无罪跟不受理不受理还高达27%换言之以这个具体的统计数字告诉我们家暴大家深厚误觉但是以判决的结果告诉我们他多数不会是到很重很重很危险的重要重大的伤害所以这是用判刑的结果来说当然有极端个案 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10992.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11018.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
也就是我們今天大家討論土城那個案那真的是讓大家非常的痛心疾首我們的保護令就差那個最後一步但是我們在看待所有的案件都還是要回到憲法的比例原則我們還是要符合罪行相當的原則我們還不還是不能去預約了適當性的原則這個目的跟手段之間我們是人權國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11019.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11040.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
所以说极端个案给了我们很多的警讯警示但是也不要因为极端个案去采取了欠缺周延讨论的执法的这些approach这些方式所以说下一页我们来看看保护令 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11041.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11068.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
保護令非萬能就以土城這個案例他真的不是萬能就差那最後一步但是就實際的執行保護令是相對有效的我以這位王佩玲教授也是他的這個報告是衛福部到現在你們在討論所有的保護令參採的最大宗的一個實證的研究因為他是規模比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11069.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11093.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
追蹤的時間比較長但我要提醒石部長這是2010年的報告啊到現在為止我們需要更新的更全面的實證研究來support我們對於家暴案類的一些政策的考量這個實在太久了啦但是以目前大家參採的這個主要的報告告訴我們施暴者整體違反保護令的比例是四成 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11094.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11106.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
而違反保護令大洲又發生了肢體暴力的比例是19%這跟國際是差不多的換言之我的解讀保護令相對有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11107.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11125.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
但是極端個案當然要慎防但是這個報告更有效的告訴我們的資訊是對於那些高風險的施暴者要強化配套這才是重中之重土城這個案例就是高風險的施暴者就是他有犯罪前科還有精神疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11126.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11141.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
對於被害人他施以曾經是性暴力脅迫控制跟跟蹤等等這些高風險的這些人你相對可以更精準的去鎖定他這才是我們該去下手的地方下一頁時間到了所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11142.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11157.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
最後給石部長統合回應也就是我對於啟動科技設備的監控從過去我們是犯罪保全證據保全的那一個方法要擴大到前端的保護加害者我認為權衡上還是要慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11160.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11182.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
保護加害者絕對要擴大但是我認為的方法是剛剛我說的實證以及研究告訴我們鎖定這些高風險的再次施暴者才是最重要的防範的核心所以不要輕易的去讓人權走回頭路因為不只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11183.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11200.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
防範加害者再次施暴更要保護受害者他的隱私跟他的自由權限至於其他的執行要有相關的法律要件的限制執行層面到底是衛福部可以做還是警政署來當家還是法務部還是司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11200.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11218.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
到現在末中已是所以我很謝謝主席我聽說應當會有公聽會在周圓的討論那我請部長統和的回應一下我剛剛的評論我們對於高風險者的管控如何有效的精準的target這些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11221.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11245.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
很謝謝委員的指教我們為什麼需要一點時間再來立法因為立法的過程一定要考慮到比例原則它的必要性 適當性跟橫平性原則一定要遵守而且還要考慮到實務上的執行性 可行性怎麼樣所以我們在後續的修法的過程當中都會秉持這個原則來審慎的研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11247.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11267.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
特別是涉及到影響到人民權益那我剛剛講的高風險的這一群人的有效的防範是你們現在就能做而且應該優先做的我們現在針對的也是這樣我們現在在做的就是先針對在評估的時候那個高風險的評估要讓他能夠更精確更準確的可以及早的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11268.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11291.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
辨識出那個高風險的個案然後去針對這些去強化不論是強化暫時性保護就是不漏接辨識出這些人存在於哪裡他的行動然後有效的保護加害人我認為這樣問題釐清下來相對執行面就有比較清楚的方向好時間有限那我非常期待後續的公聽會我也會踴躍的參加謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11295.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11310.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
有請廖偉祥委員發言好謝謝主席有請石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11313.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11331.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
六人好部長好這個依照家庭暴力防治法的第五條主管機關每四年應對家暴問題現況成效及需求進行調查分心對嗎對嘛那最新一期應該是什麼時候去年去年2020到2023對嗎對嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11335.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11347.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
好但是我跟你說你們衛福部官方網站上面的家庭暴力防治報告書目前最新版本顯示是16到19年的版本部長你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11348.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11369.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
你們目前顯示的是這個但是這是掛網的啦這對外公布的是這樣但是我們有一個新的版本要那為什麼你們新的沒有放上去呢已經上網了沒有我跟你講其實這就是你們顯示我很擔心的就是你們好像沒有很在意因為你是上面的那個日期寫錯其實內容上其實是有調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11370.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11394.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我們再看一下好 這雖然看似是一個小問題但本席就是要表達就是說這樣看起來你們好像沒有很在意部長 我想要表達的是你可能在醫政上面你過去在健保署等等 你很專業可是你在這上面是不是應該要更加用心一點 部長希望部長可以多在意這個所謂的社政的部分 好不好會 一樣的重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11396.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11417.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以回到報告內容19年的版說成立集中派案窗口後總計受理26萬餘件的保護性或脆弱家庭的通報案件並且可以快速的篩出22%的錯誤通報及重複通報案件那且98%的案件可以24小時內完成派案評估部長認為這98%的數字是滿意的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11421.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11437.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們當然希望是百分之百啦你希望是百分之百好我接下來跟你講這就會發生什麼問題我們當然希望越高越好但是同樣監察院的報告當中卻點出了衛福部系統性的問題首先是通報案件爆量 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11438.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11456.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
比預估高出10倍還沒有完全到位的社工人力根本沒有辦法應付好 第二個仍然不夠清楚的分案標準是否開案的爭議以及受限的派案機制讓派案中心承受著接案時跟網絡各單位跟社政單位的爭執內耗與壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11458.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11477.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
所以顯然要告訴部長的是報告書說這個高達90%好像近乎完美的派案成果完全不同所以部長認為這樣子所謂的這個報案量然後宣傳很有效以及這樣子的KPI你確定這樣的KPI是設定正確沒有問題的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11479.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11491.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
當然從這個通報案數來講我們還是得跟實際上的這個流行病學的研究的比例來看它確實還是underreport它還是有gap所以我們還是要繼續去鼓勵這個通報出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11496.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11518.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
求救啦就是受害者要去求救那第二個是人力的部分對 我想要跟你說的就是今天討論這個議題本身科技監控是一個方法而已我們是想要真的從根本上降低家暴以及家暴防治今天時間不夠可是我會盡量講快一點所以我要跟你說的是你這樣的KPI設定應該是有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11519.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11542.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
隨著你的宣導越多的時候你的案量會越多沒有錯但是問題是你人力不足那你怎麼辦所以你的精準識別高風險就是很重要的一環可是看起來是沒有辦法的因為現在看起來就是這個部分就是一個根本性的問題所以你連KPI如果都設定錯的情況之下這樣就會導致大家就是徒勞無功而且瞎忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11544.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11563.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
因為社工已經很辛苦了你如果沒有精準的分辨出高風險的時候你就會導致大家有個惡性循環所以本席認為你應該要重新檢討你的不要將通報量作為你們美化政府在這部分努力的數據通報量根本不是所謂的真正有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11563.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11574.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
通報量你只能夠說你宣導有效但是你沒有辦法根本上解決問題甚至還可能導致案件壓力過大讓社工要離職喔所以你應該要公布所謂高風險個案鑑別失敗率 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11577.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11601.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
還有脆弱家庭服務轉型結案後的再通報率你結案了應該是要應該是要這個到底是怎麼樣的真實數據這應該是你們真正的KPI你們真正要去關注的對吧這兩個這個指標後段的這個脆弱家庭再通報現在已經納入了那前面這個確實這個我們要回頭去檢視我們現在用的工具跟方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11602.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11619.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
對於這個高風險個案的鑑別的正確率如何所以這是我要告訴你們請你們要去檢討這是第一件事這還是第一部分而已我們今天剛剛一直有人說到底電子監控有沒有用我們等一下再講到電子監控第二部分剛剛講到社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11620.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11644.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
社工所處的情況也不容樂觀111年你們的調查說5824名社安網裡面的社工高達1188人遭受到這個口語威脅辱罵肢體傷害那高雄市的社工工會更驚爆每三天就有一名社工可能受到身體傷害惡劣的環境讓社工慌所以桃園市為例近三年社工平均離職率高達17% |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11646.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11674.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
但是脆弱家庭通報每年9500件啊余件啊所以社工的缺口連年破百所以這個跟剛剛就有一個惡性循環出生社安網的頂層設計的失敗案量預估錯誤導致案量也有可能大量的太多而且沒有精準的找到案量第二個社工在這樣高案量高暴力高壓力難以精緻處理個案的情況之下導致敏感度的鈍化 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11675.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11700.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
第三高風險的個案失敗社工就會反遭被究責甚至可能有什麼上銬啊或者是被社會的輿論壓力所以社工就會覺得說高壓低支持的情況之下選擇用腳投票就是離開這導致高離職率然後有經驗的社工大量流失新進的社工更難應對導致系統性的進一步惡化你同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11701.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11727.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
對 這個我非常同意就是對於社工我們不能夠這樣苛責以目前的這樣的工作的型態那我們也在這個未來的那個社安網2.0裡面我們去擴編這個社工的人力部長 剛剛兩個就是要告訴你現況就是這樣子所以你的KPI你的績效到底要怎麼評估你們應該要從頭從頂層設計去全方位的檢討這是第一部分接下來是保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11728.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11752.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
保護令剛剛有委員說保護令很有效可是我要告訴你保護令其實是沒有什麼效因為還是發生了很多的案件所以譬如說逐年升高剛剛也有委員講說違反保護令的案件2021年可能3721到2024年變成4497如果數據沒有那麼精確有錯誤你也可以糾正我每年家暴平均可能有3300多件那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11756.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11757.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這一些保護令出來之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11759.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11787.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
沒有辦法及時的預警所以近三年這個加害者加害者生壓率就是只有6到7%那一樣是加報防治書但是其實也有另外一個數據說如果是檢察官生壓 申請羈押羈押率有高達七成也高於一般犯罪率所以顯示其實這個是有問題存在因為代表檢察官如果真的到法院去說要這件事這個部分我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11788.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11796.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個也可以請司法院法務部都上來在旁邊好了所以這就是一個很奇怪的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11797.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11818.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以代表說什麼代表說這個保護令其實也可能有出現很大的漏洞所以剛我講的是不是屬實就是這樣的相關數據譬如說檢察官如果申請生壓的話核准生壓可能有到七成可是在所有的家暴案件裡面受害者想要去想要去申請這個生壓真正的比率只有6到7%剛剛應該有委員提到對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11821.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11850.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
跟委員報告就是說這個申請羈押率那他的數據是來自於家暴案件所有家暴案件數因為這個家暴案件數有大部分可能是用含送而非現行犯移送的也就是說他不是把人拘捕之後移送到檢察官這邊來因此這個數這個比例會比較低的原因可能是因為在這邊所以我們可能回去還要再去確認就是說以現行犯移送就是有拘捕被告到檢察官這邊的那我們的生壓率是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11850.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11870.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
對嘛所以這些數據你都沒有或者是你們應該要再去確認那你怎麼可以說現在的保護令是真的好像剛剛有委員說其實是很有效的我覺得這我沒有辦法認同所以這部分請你們回去提供本席辦公室數據好嗎再來就是今天的重要的重點科技監控的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11871.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11888.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
其實在場還有包含警政署警政署的代表也上來當初邱太元部長在這裡的時候我本席也質詢一樣是各部會在這裡我問每一個部會對於科技監控的態度我再問一次林園已經換了部長請問一下石部長你對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11889.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11915.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
科技監控在家暴裡面的科技監控這一塊甚至入法部分你的態度是什麼就是以科技的工具來強化這個對被害人的保護這個我們方向上是支持的只是在執行上如何去執行能夠兼顧到這個個人的隱私跟執行的效果這個我們必須要再好再講一次個人隱私你說是哪個部分的個人隱私就是包含這個被害 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11918.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11924.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所有的隱私資訊或者他的被害者的個人隱私對不對對 你是擔心被害者的個人隱私對 還有他可能會不會帶來反效果這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11932.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11960.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
部長我跟你說啊所以你覺得隱私還有人權是一個很大的問題對不對你覺得隱私和人權是很大的問題嗎好那我想要請問一下美國是不是人權國家英國是不是人權國家法國西班牙是不是人權國家請問是不是我原提的這當然都是是那他們有沒有用電子監控重視人權的國家啦有嘛那他們有沒有用電子監控怎麼樣的去執行我們再來生就之後那你訂出這是第一個人權的我的回應啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11961.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11968.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以現在有很多 這現在也都有在直播所以我覺得人權這是一件在拖延的藉口 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11969.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11992.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
你所謂的人權這些國家都是人權國家他們也用了這個科技這是第一件事第二件事你說隱私權受害者隱私權請問我跟你說也有研究報告顯示就是你剛說隱私權還有這個生活覺得說生活被拘束好我跟你說也有報告顯示說這些被家暴的受害者認為有了電子監控之後他的生活更自在更自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11993.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12005.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
因為他不用擔心在被家暴如果你沒有電子清空的情況之下很多人要住進去哪裡對不對去庇護所你也點頭要去庇護所他進去庇護所他到底是跟自由還是跟不自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12006.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12022.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那這就是一個很大的問題再者你的庇護所也不夠嘛你長期的庇護所也不夠嘛所以這兩個理由在本席看來是推脫的理由我剛剛也回答這是推脫的理由因為這些國家也都有在做這個事再者要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12023.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12040.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們說明其實不是每個國家這麼做那即使是在澳洲也是有事辦像您看到的這樣所以表示說這件事情的執行上確實是有爭議要小心的再來我是要跟你說不要用推脫的方式你們應該要盡速研議再來剛剛你說的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12043.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12068.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
你說包含這科技監控的部分你覺得會有人權的問題啦或者是要有爭議的問題剛剛我們也討論到這個是不是被害者想要做他要知情的情況之下才會做一定要對嘛那你覺得這裡也配套完全尊重對所以不是代表他一定馬上要使用嘛所以你剛剛的這個隱私權自由權或者知情權你又打自己的臉了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12069.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12094.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
即使是在他同意的情形之下我們也要有妥善的配套很多在知情之下執行的政策仍然可能傷害到他個人妥善的配套所以沒關係現在你的態度是說你支持這個方向可是要妥善的配套是這個意思好那我想要請問因為這次的回答跟上次的邱部長就不太一樣邱部長表示的支持度更高好支持度更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12095.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12103.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
還說一個月內要跨部會這個研議但是看起來你們也只開了一次會那接下來換這個法務部你們的態度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12106.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12134.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
跟委員報告那基本上這個立法目的我們是非常的認同也就是說強化對於這個被害人的保護但這個你只認同立法目的但是你沒有認同這個電子科技監控這個針對這個措施那他可能會收集到這個相關被害人他的一些資訊的部分還是資訊隱私的問題可是剛剛不是已經回答了嗎對就是我想那個他們也會有非常完整的一個研議之後那所以你的態度是支持不支持你們你們的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12135.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12163.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們就是尊重這個衛福部他們的這個所以你是尊重衛福部只要衛福部立法你們就支持我們尊重衛福部主管機關的演繹好那請問這個司法院報告委員我們的立場是支持但我們有兩個報告第一個就是說在民事保護令裡面為確保這個遠離令裡面讓被害人有相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12164.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12185.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
保護他的安全這樣的科控是絕對正確的那這個科控在比例上我們要加上一些高風險的評估這樣讓法官裁量這是第一個部分那第二個部分當然一定要被害人同意那因為有兩個部分在國際的都是這樣所以這就是相對的配套了嘛對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12188.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12213.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那就在國際上他兩個部分一個就是說叫做定點科控一個叫做隨著被害人的移動科控雙向那這個要被害人同意當然要被害人同意剛剛講過被害人完全知情的時候我們同意在這個法令這是第一步那事實上你有這個電子監控本來就是為了被害人被受害者被害人去設立的目前原理論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12215.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12227.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
目前年齡率是以這個住居所上班場所以及特定出入場所沒關係 這是一些技術細節啊但是你們的部分是支持嘛 對不對好 謝謝 那請問警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12230.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12251.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
委員好 只要能夠減少這種家暴案件憾事的發生本署都是支持那同樣的 相關的配套措施就等待中央主管部會他們來研議 我們就配合來幫忙好 警政署支持其實我也認為是應該要因為你的人力也不可能隨時保護令出現問題的時候你衝到現場你也來不及嘛當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12252.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12280.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
對啊 當然所以我還是想要重申謝謝 請署長回答我還是要跟部長重申其實你也可以聽到不管是司法院或是警政署其實他們配套也滿明確的那你們到底在猶豫什麼呢我本席要告訴你們請你們盡速因為我剛剛不是只針對電子科技監控這只不過是最末端的一個問題而已包含這個電子監控的部分還有包含受害人處置的部分你們也是相對投入的資源根本不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12281.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12303.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以你說發生之後要讓這個加害人怎麼處置要讓他可以矯正他的行為這個你們都今天還沒有時間討論到所以從剛開始的你的KPI的設計到社工的出了問題所以才會說現在的漏網之語漏洞這麼大才會想到說那是不是參照國際的方式去用所謂的電子監控的技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12304.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12330.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以本席希望你們儘速今天是大體討論但是希望你們儘速研議請儘速提出修法方向而且要往這方向所謂的相關配套因為本席要提醒你們這根本就是看執政黨願不願意做執政黨看起來用這些方式在用推脫的就像當初就業服務法廢除巴士量表的時候你跟我們說上路根本來不及所以你們需要時間配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12331.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12358.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
立法院也給了勞動部時間配套結果到了六七個月以後去實施發現根本沒有這麼多人申請發現這樣子的制度也有加匯到非常多需要的人所以本席要說我們要盡速的推動不要用這些理由所謂的隱私權人權剛剛都已經回應過了我覺得這是一個非常拖一拖和希望立法延後的狀況這段時間有多少受害者如果又受害了 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12359.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12367.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
有多少受害者受害了 那誰要負責 誰要下台以上 謝謝謝謝廖偉祥 趙偉的發言好 我們繼續來演繹好 謝謝 接下來請陳瑩委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12387.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12389.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
麻煩請衛福部部長請衛福部時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12393.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12419.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
陳委員好部長好我們今天討論這個家庭暴力防治法的修法那根據第五條的規定衛福部應該每四年對家庭暴力的問題防治現況成效與需求進行調查分析並且要定期公佈家庭暴力致死的人數各項補助及醫療支出的統計分析資料首先要請教最近一次的調查統計報告是哪一年公佈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12420.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12437.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我們公佈的是2020到2023年的這個報告那已經發佈了所以是在哪一年公佈了這個資料今年今年的幾月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12438.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12441.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以我們2025年的10月公佈公佈了這個發佈了這個2020年到2023年的交情暴力防治的報告那 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12454.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12475.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這部法令在衛福部內部的這個主政單位是社家署還是保護司保護司保護司好那事實上呢這部法從87年開始實施以來好像這個家暴的這個通報人數每年都以七八千件的比例不斷的在增加那從109年14萬9千件到113年17萬9千件 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12479.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12504.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
然後大概有5成左右都是出自枕邊人女性的部分約佔了7成而且平均都是忍受了4.2年才會通報這樣的結果其實令人是很驚訝的衛福部可不可以解釋一下這個問題到底是出在什麼樣的地方是我們法令規範不足還是執行面上的問題還是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12506.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12512.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
在整個這個社會的這個眼鏡當中大家的生活壓力都太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12513.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12540.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
跟委員報告就是說我們有兩個一個是說流行病學的推估它的那個可能的這個黑數還有多少那以我們現在的通報量來講呢其實是還有黑數的所以如何去去這個讓就像委員所看到呃呈現的資料這個時間上還是拖了所以應該要有更多的這個宣導跟這個讓讓大家知道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12542.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12561.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
怎样的事件呢其实是符合这个家报那他能够怎么样通报出来可以得到什么样的协助所以我们一直在社区推广这方面所以部长也觉得说那个发布的时间这个报告发布的时间其实是还真的是拖了因为我这样看也慢了将近整整两年 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12561.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12586.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以這個部分可能在發佈的時程上你們需要再多壓縮一些再來因為各縣市政府也就是這部法的地方主管機關請教一下部長你們統計有沒有針對縣市別去分析縣市別有分縣市別再麻煩你們提供給我們因為我們這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12589.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12602.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
還沒看到就是我們內部有啦那可能在這個公開的報告上面沒有呈現吧你們也有嗎這在另外一個啦在另外一個在我們的統計處 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12603.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12629.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
另外一個在另外那有公佈嗎有有有那個好那麻煩再資料提供給我那好那看起來你們有所掌握那你們可不可以講一下就是說在在這個城鄉差距是不是到底是人口比較擁擠生活壓力比較大的都會區呢家暴件數比較多呢還是說人口比較少的縣市那可能因為社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12629.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12650.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
及保護人力比較不足 家暴通報的案件就反而比較高到底是怎麼樣的情況 有沒有講一下從數據上面看起來六都的數據是一定是高的那特別是像新北因為它的總人口數也多所以它的通報量幾乎佔我們的全國的六分之一也就是這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12651.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12676.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
相對的比較是偏鄉的縣市我會覺得一個是他的家庭支持的系統以及他的民情可能比較純樸社區支持的系統例如說九里之間 零里之間的系統比較緊密所以他的通報量相較的也就是他的施暴的狀況是比較穩定的我們看起來是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12677.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12692.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好 謝謝那其次因為你們的統計數字是以這個件數為單位那家暴往往再犯的可能是有的那所以衛福部能不能跟我們講一下說再犯的比例大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12694.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12713.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
目前应该是说再通报就是再被通报已经进到我们的服务体系之后在服务当中又再被通报这种比例也有一定的程度所以又再被通报你们的定义是就是再次受到家暴它又通报出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12714.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12726.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
好不會一件被受到家暴一次通報通報兩次確認一下再通報就是但是你們要用講好再通報好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12728.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12756.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
家暴法裡面有一項很重要的這個作為就是要對加害人實施這個處遇計劃也就是說對於加害人實施認知教育輔導輕職教育輔導心理輔導精神治療還有戒癮治療以及其他的這個輔導跟治療那請教一下部長一般這樣的計劃大概是時間多長有沒有強制性那每年加害人接受計劃的這個輔導大概有多少件多少比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12757.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12777.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好那个处愈的部分大概有戒饮戒治好这几个这个是比较我们比较重要的啦那这个我们过去的包含精神治疗包含戒饮治疗那么还有一些是像这个亲子辅导认知教育辅导等等这一些啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12777.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12805.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那我们如果按照执行率来看就是应该这个以113年为例那么以这个认知辅导这边是最多大概占了85%那其次才是这个精神治疗的部分是17%好谢谢那再根据家庭暴力防治法为推动家庭暴力及性侵害的相关防治工作卫福部应设置基金目前你们基金的这个额度有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12808.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12828.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
因為我們的基金大致上都是用公務預算從這個撥補的部分那因為有推動2.0就我們的社安網加緊我們一年大概20億左右那地方縣市政府的防止家暴是要自己編列預算還是你們會補助那這個補助的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12831.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12849.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
但每年怎麼樣的編列還是說透過這個基金去給縣市政府原則上地方也要有自己的自由財源他們要自己編預算那有一些計劃我們就會用計劃型補助例如社會安全網那我們的補助就按照行政院規定這個50%到90%這樣的比例按照他的財力分級 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12854.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12875.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好 那另外在這部法59條有規定移民主管機關應辦理移民業務人員防止家庭暴力的在職教育那要請教你們就是為什麼移民業務人員也要接受防止家暴教育那他們在學完之後有相關的職權去針對移民推動家暴防制業務嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12877.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12897.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
移民主軟器官他會接觸到我們的新住民甚至是移工那他也有可能在他的家庭或者是他的工作場所遭到僱主或遭到家人的不法侵害所以他們有職權去推動這樣子的他基本上就是宣導還有敏感到要做通報好 那說到這裡重點來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12900.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12918.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
就是說當然我們也關心這個外籍的勞工朋友就我們了解的說如果都是這個雙方都是外籍勞工那他們在台灣是不是能他們在台灣其實是不能組家庭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12919.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12942.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
但是呢卻可以住在一起生養小孩這是他們能做的那萬一發生家暴受害的外籍勞工朋友可能他們到底能不能得到這部家庭暴力防治法的保護因為他們的小孩也有可能會被傷害我不知道你們的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12943.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12965.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
對啊 只要對應該是都在我們的保護範圍啦都在你提的是移工嘛對 因為雙方都他們我講的是兩邊都是外籍的兩邊都是外籍的喔不是嫁給台灣人喔部長要不要想一下可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12967.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12977.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
因為他們不能組家庭但是卻有家庭生活的事實那就是共居的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12979.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13003.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
對 但是因為這比較特別我想今天質詢的一個心得一個很重要的我覺得是大家疏漏的地方特別請稍微多給一點時間我趕快把它講完那因為我們一年在台灣就出生這樣800個這樣的孩子那這幾年下來你們有掌握累積了多少黑虎寶寶了嗎黑虎寶寶好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13007.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13026.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
這個部分我們會以後再提供對你們如果你們有所掌握那我剛剛提出來的就是一個很重要的一個問題了那因為這部家庭暴力防治法對於這個勞動主管機關只有規定被家暴後的職業訓練跟就業服務的部分那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13027.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13053.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
勞動部紅部長他標榜一向都非常特別關心外籍勞工朋友的權益而且台大研究已經有發表家暴的發生會降低勞動參與率也就是會導致離開職場勞動部對於職場僱主的暴力已經有安置的措施所以本席建議衛福部可能要找勞動部好好討論一下基於人道的立場協調一個部會可以去關注這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13055.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13079.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
好 那我们希望就是说今天点出这个部分看起来是有疏漏啦我们漏掉了这一块那我想就是说我们一起努力让我们就是国家的每一个家庭不要有人在黑暗中哭泣啦那我们就一起努力这样子好 谢谢我们对移工的受暴的部分我们来强化好 谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13081.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13088.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
謝謝陳穎委員發言鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接著請王洪威委員發言謝謝主席我請我們衛福部長請時部長還有司法院少年級家事廳廳長以及保護部的檢察司司長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13108.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13125.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
好 今天主要是討論有關於家暴的相關的問題那家暴案件年年增加這大家都知道的事情那麼尤其這次土城的事件呢大家非常震驚可是現在有一個事件就是說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13127.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13152.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這些家暴犯尤其他們常常違反保護令甚至違反保護令之後又再繼續施暴這種比例非常非常高這種件數也非常非常多可是事實上到了在法院司法的部分像這些家暴案件不曉得是不是因為它量太多然後可能檢察官也好或者法官也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13152.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13174.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
是不是因為多到他見怪不怪所以像這樣的案件事實上最後被羈押的比例極低非常非常的低以111年到113年生押的也是只有佔6.7%而裁定羈押的更低 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13175.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13201.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那另外违反保护令已经违反保护令了然后生压者的比例也低7%裁定羁押者也是占5.1%这也是我们在立法院法治局在整个的有关于这些家暴案件里面所提出来的一个问题那我们常常在这个社会也看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13202.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13220.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
像這種什麼旅販也不怕啦然後實在就是行為非常非常的離譜最後才會被柴地擠壓所以在這邊我想請教包含我們的廳長還有我們檢察司司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13223.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13250.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
這到底是什麼問題是在我們的司法體系裡面是我剛才講的嗎大家覺得這個案子塞得太多了如果通通都把他關進去這個到時候這個看守所也會大爆炸是因為這樣子嗎那這些人他被放出去之後那又常常再犯啊今天如果是真的是自己的家人或是自己的姐妹大家就會覺得為什麼不把他押起來為什麼還要讓他放出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13251.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13256.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所以这到底问题在哪里可不可以先请厅长 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13260.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13281.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
報告委員 關於法官在審酌拘不拘押基本上所觸犯的法律就是叫做違反保護令罪它的法定刑是三年以下所以不是一個很高的法定刑 這是第一個第二個 違反保護令的類型很多它如果只是去接觸或騷擾 這是一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13283.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13306.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
沒有 這是違反保護令之後又去施暴是不是應該立刻被押起來現在我們在討論那個鞭刑我覺得像這種才應該給他鞭刑啊怎麼家暴跑去打自己的小孩 打自己的太太家暴成性 這種才應該鞭刑啊讓他說要鞭刑 自己看一看被打是什麼樣的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13309.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13331.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那麼這一部分因為我們的交叛法有明定反覆實施是可以羈押所以現在我們同步促進這種教育訓練跟溝通協調所以下個月刑事廳長跟我親自會跟所有處理這樣的法官來做線上溝通這是第一部分其他我是不是請我們那個調辦室的黃法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13334.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13359.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那關於那個羈押的部分的話其實目前為止如果說檢察官依照這個違反那個家暴的那個案件來申請羈押我們目前的數據來講就今年的部分的話其實已經有高達70.39%那其實在以往的話甚至有到八成只要檢察官針對這個違反家暴案件來進行生壓的話法官這個部分的話其實會做一個全盤的評估那這部分的生壓率其實是不低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13359.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13386.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
其實要解釋啊是因為法官是因為檢察官沒生壓是吧這就是像我們在講那個15萬那個太子集團15萬交保然後當這個左院長震怒了之後呢那個北院趕快發一個新聞稿說不是我們這個是檢察官讓他交保的所以你的意思說問題不在你不在你們就是這邊法官的話不在在法官的這邊是要做一個補充說明那來我們那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13389.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13406.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
檢察司司長那就在你們了跟委員報告那當然羈押就是有一定的法定要件那如果符合羈押的要件的話我想檢察官都會依法來申請羈押那剛才也跟前面委員有報告過就說這個羈押的比率那他的母數是來自於所有的違反家暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13407.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13433.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
家暴的案件那違反家暴案件他有一部分是用函送也就是說不是拘捕現行犯移送到檢察機關這邊來的那如果是以現行犯移送到檢察機關這邊來的那檢察官認為說有符合加藥件的話他就會申請羈押那這個比例上可能會是不一樣的那有關這個數據我想我們回去再去做比較詳細的確認之後我希望其實在我們社會上常常假如我今天是施暴的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13434.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13454.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
被施暴者是名人 其實都比較容易被羈押社會關注嘛 而且會羈押很久可是像這種就是一般的深頭小民我們常常會看到 或者我們自己也會也會面臨到這樣的這種選民的這個申訴啊求速無門啊 怕得要死啊然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13455.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13471.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
然後一再的違反這個保護令然後還會施暴還會就是對自己的孩子對自己尤其為什麼我們覺得這個深惡痛絕因為通常都是一個家庭裡面或者強者然後他去施暴那些弱者 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13471.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13492.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
不管是自己的老婆也好 這個體力比較小比較沒有體力的 或者小孩子所以我覺得在某一個程度那麼我們有羈押的這樣的一個工具應該去做 好不好最後一點點時間 不好意思 部長請教一下因為呢 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13495.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13522.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
總統公佈了說要成立兒童及家庭署那我想請問一下因為這個呢外界質疑說這不過呢只是改名這改一個名字原來的社家署他把它併一下你們其他的私的業務然後就變成兒童及家庭署是不是這樣子不是不是那個社會及家庭署他還是留著那只是他的整個業務也會重整 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13522.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13537.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那這個兒童專責是新的署完全新的署那你們要完全一個不是原來的社家署的改名而已不是不是是把社家署裡面的兒童家庭業務移出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13538.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13563.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那社家署还是在但是我们会做任务的重组比如说会把一些长照的业务做整合那这个是新的一个儿少级家庭支持署是把儿童的业务把它整并起来所以他会着眼点是在对于儿童的保护不止 儿童的健康保护福利这些都会把它照顾 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13564.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13569.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
整合在一個新的 這個我們願意支持全新的再請委員支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13582.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13597.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
接下來請吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員不在請沈發慧委員沈發慧委員沈發慧委員不在賴士寶委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員不在請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13607.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13635.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
黃委員好 部長好部長今天討論這個家庭暴力防治法那我先想請教就是說我們之前這個社會案件就是家暴然後這個被害人都已經申請保護令那還是遭到這個殺害那我想請教就是說經過這幾個月那衛福部針對這一部分你們有沒有什麼更精進的方式尤其是在這個申請保護令的這樣的一個空窗期 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13635.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13661.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那是有什么样精进的方式跟委员这是两个一个是如何去缩短这个保护令的这个空窗期一个是有即使是发了这个保护令但是如何去强化这个保护的措施这个是两件事情那以缩短这个空窗期核发这个保护令的这个空窗期这个期间我们去加快怎么样 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13661.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13676.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
当然我们保护令有这个通常保护令跟暂时跟紧急那所以先去这个强化这个高风险个案的辨识强化这个评估工具然后能够减去更完整就是由地方的 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13677.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13703.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
对 透过教育训练让这个地方的警 这个开始要第一个应该还是警察或者是我们的社工人员都有可能那去给他们提高他们的这个教育训练那么强化这个评估高风险评估的还有一些资料证据的收集这样的话能够让这个检察官法官容易快速的裁量所以这个是第一个措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13703.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13729.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那第二个当然是说即使是还没有或者是已经核发保护令了那还是要能够让他有多一层的保护所以我们会强力的去辅导或者是让被害人去使用我们有一个110的 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13732.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13756.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
視訊APP你說那個聯到警政單位對警政單位當有任何的狀況的時候他可以及時的求援來增加這個保護的措施所以現在目前所有被害者或是有申請保護令的他現在都有下載我們都會告訴他有這個資訊來協助他下載的狀況是多少你知道嗎下載的狀況我們看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13757.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13775.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
原則上還是要就個案來認定也就是說被害人經過社工輔導他認為有必要他就會下載那實際上其實就剛剛部長講的其實有一些狀況就是確實這個加害者他是可能有精神疾病或者是他真的就這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13778.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13795.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
確實就是真的很危險的啦那有時候家人或是什麼講也講不聽那我希望說就這些就是說你們在第一時間可能警政單位或者是這個被害者他可能第一時間就會直接打給這個派出所 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13795.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13822.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
就是派出所的警員可能會第一時間到現場那有時候第一時間到現場可能問一問問完之後也許他會覺得說好像不是那麼嚴重可能就沒有做後續的一個處置所以我希望就是說針對這一部分譬如說他原本可能就有一些精神狀況有一些精神疾病有一些精神狀況我覺得這個可能還需要再加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13823.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13848.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
就是那个横向的联系就比如说我们有一些是像这个九药瘾的他的这个强化个案或者是精神病病人在社区的高风险个案那这些我们如何去强化这个横向让他知道说这个不只是在这边做社区的一些治疗同时他又是家暴的这个加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13849.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13866.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那這樣可能可以提升這個介入的措施那我想請教就是剛剛有講就是申請這個保護令可能一般保護令也需要有一段時間對不對那通常的時間差不多多久以目前大概50幾天52天左右那有辦法這個時間再縮短嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13868.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13893.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
因為現在的案量上確實也是不少所以我們現在是比較強化去說找出那個真正高風險要快的那一塊不然全部都加快反而分散了這個所有的這個業務那不見得能夠保護到就是你把那個52天縮短那倒不如把那個高風險個案真正的達到它縮短就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13895.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13912.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
所以如果是这样子的话我觉得可能你们评估这方面可能还要再强化再落实要不然有时候你觉得说他可能不是那种高风险可是也许他是潜在可能潜在可是你一时间可能没办法发现的那一种 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13913.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13931.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那另外就是說我們今天有一些委員有特別提到就是說用電子監控的方式那也有特別提到說也許用電子監控會不會另外被害人的一些隱私或權益可能也會受損那我想請教部長針對這部分你們有什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13933.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13946.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
你們要怎麼去因應那未來如果是朝著這個方向去進行的話那又不讓這個被害者的這個隱私可能就是揭露或暴露那你們要怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13947.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13973.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
这个确实有很多需要考虑的地方从这个执行上的适当性必要性横平性还有可行性上我们都需要去讨论到因为这个毕竟是会侵犯到这个人权个人的隐私他的整个日常生活都被监控这个在执行上确实我们要有各项的好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13975.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13996.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
都考量到了才比較合適另外部長我再請教就是說你剛剛有特別提到我們現在就有連結110的APP我想請教就是如果是大人也許他有手機如果小孩他沒有手機的話你們會怎麼去做一些保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13998.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14023.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
孩子的部分孩子目前对他确实是有的是没有手机的是那你们会怎么去处理这个我们再研究看看对孩子的部分怎么来强化就是你刚刚讲的这个APP是针对因为如果跟他的家人在一起是比较没有问题可是他可能要去上学或者是他也是这个国小他可以自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14024.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14042.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
去學校或者是 對那這個部分我覺得你們應該要去思考一下針對他也許沒有手機或者是他你們要怎麼去針對這一群人去做保護今天的修法也有委員的案子是去強化教育的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14044.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14066.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
在學校的教育讓他們理解這些家暴的事件怎麼保護自己等等這些加入到這個教育是需要我們是支持的但是如何再強化更主動性的保護那我們來研究好 謝謝我們希望不要有再下一次的這樣的一個傷害好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14075.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14093.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在那是不是有交換了嗎好那接下來請林淑芬委員發言好謝謝主席是不是請我們部長有請石部長還有這個法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14104.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14105.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
法務部代表其實是因為打亂了我的質詢的順序不過我還是先談這個題目好了因為我今天看了各個部會四份的報告對於有委員提案修加暴房治法第61條 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14129.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14132.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
大家都沒有任何的意見沒有表示任何意見只有獨獨衛福部認為說不妥所以叫我們提案人叫立法院說再審酌一下部長你們認為不妥那剛才也有很多立委質詢我聽了一個早上大家都問你們說為什麼這個積壓的比例這麼低為什麼個案數發生數跟積壓率會不成比 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14160.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14175.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那司長這個法務部我們檢察司司長也講了很多遍了但司長還有司法院你們都沒有表示意見我來告訴你你知道刑事訴訟法裡面有一條霸王條款嗎部長 司長為什麼羈押的比例這麼低因羈押而未羈押違反保護令罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14188.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14206.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
它的二值在哪裡保護令的類型通常都已經是為國家和法律所禁止的事項了它已經違法一次了那經由違法一次國家發放這個保護令合法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14207.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14231.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
是再告訴你一次等於是第二次的告知相對人法律不允許你做這一些事情可是行為人對於國家特別再一次告知的法律禁止事項他無動於衷 無視於法令的存在又再一次的違反法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14232.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14256.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
所以這種人是顯然法治意識極為淡薄所以在這種狀況裡面我們再告知他兩次以後他還是要再違法所以他會 我們的家暴防治法裡面說他違反保護令罪 刑責多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14257.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14280.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
刑責多少 三年以下會遇到什麼霸王條款 司長你來說 法務部三年以下會遇到什麼霸王條款導致於法官不會裁 或者是檢察官最後就放棄了你看還要打小報告 你們今天整個早上都沒有人說 也沒有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14282.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14294.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
就是他的那個法定刑事三年以下的罪名對那原則上刑事訴訟法規定是原則上是不得好啦是給你打pass了你們都沒有講重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14297.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14324.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
法王條款就是來自於刑事訴訟法第114條的規定羈押的被告有下列的情形之一者如經拒保申請停止羈押不得駁回當事人只要去申請我們要拒保不要羈押你的法官一律不准駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14327.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14344.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
所以三年以下其中一款哪一種狀況是一定要給他交保不可以羈押第一款所犯最重本行為三年以下的有期徒刑拘役或專科罰金的罪者 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14347.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14372.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以你這一條法律家暴房治罪就是三零以下一律要交保但是他有一個但書但書就是累犯有犯罪的習慣的假釋中更犯罪或依第100條之一的一項之一的這個羈押者不在此限所以後來有裁定可以羈押的都是累犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14374.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14398.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這樣你聽到沒有 有裁定羈押的都是累犯啦只要不是累犯 通常都一定要符合霸王條款的規定 一定要准他交保怎麼羈押 法律真正的問題在這裡 沒錯你今天你的報告再跟大家說這條不要重演啦 不要重演啦 不能再提高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14400.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14416.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
你知道問題在哪裡嗎我們主要還是要尊重在這個立法過程當中這個法官的裁量權法官沒有裁量權因為罷網條款在那裡土城那一個案子是累犯嗎土城那個是累犯嗎不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14417.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14430.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
在信義區那個殺了那個女孩在停車場殺女孩那個是累犯嗎那一個是法官有可能去認定為有犯罪習慣的嗎他們都第一次他怎麼羈押沒有辦法羈押所以我今天講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14439.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14454.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我們 我知道衛福部不是法律刑事訴訟法的專業我們衛環的委員也沒有人是刑事訴訟法的專業提案的委員也沒有人知道這個霸王條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14455.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14483.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
可是你法務部 你司法院對於委員提案 你沒有表示任何意見你們也不知道說真正的結構性問題為什麼沒有裁定羈押其實是來自於霸王條款所以違反保護令罪的人數這麼多裁定羈押的比例這麼低有時候不是因為檢察官意識不夠不是因為法官搞不清楚而已 不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14485.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14514.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
即便他搞得清楚也押不成押不成所以在這裡我們你知道普通傷害罪普通傷害罪連普通的傷害罪都五年以下的有期徒刑了我們這個違反法令所不許的第一次第二次再告誡你不可以合法的保護令了再告誡你你仍然還要違法而這樣的違法竟然只比 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14515.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14536.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
還比普通傷害罪還要輕所以嘛 所以這種狀況裡面壓得成嗎 壓不成壓不成 馬上交保出來就殺人土城 信義區 信義計劃區 信義區裡面就是這個樣子所以在這種狀況啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14539.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14555.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
在這種狀況是法律上你第61條非修不可我也提出了一個我就提出這一條的修正可是這樣不夠耶這個司法院司法院的加害者處遇計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14558.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14584.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
你這種犯罪行為有時候就人格有問題生活上他有他的這個結構上的問題那大家都知道我們家暴防治法裡面最終還有一個對要對加害者你其實要怎麼樣治療他要提出加害者的處遇計畫可是為什麼法院的裁定率幾乎沒有為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14585.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14613.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
欸 司法院為什麼加害者處遇計畫幾乎都沒有法院主動裁核的 為什麼為什麼 裁定的處遇計畫為什麼這麼低 更低這些風險高的那他們不是更應該要去給他治療嗎加害者的處遇計畫不是更重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14616.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14622.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
來 為什麼為什麼你們法官主動去裁定的裁合的處遇計畫這麼低 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14625.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14649.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
報告委員現在有三個部分來報告第一部分是這個一申請後法官啟動職權的部分必須先收集你這個不要再講這些了啦我跟你講你會叫地方政府先去評估啦叫社工去評估啦然後再送上來啦那個都是地方政府送上來你們去採的地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14651.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14667.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
把責任可處理計畫的可行性與否交給地方政府而地方政府評估完以後你們認為這麼不要了算了都沒有法官主動去裁的為什麼你知道嗎因為大家都知道法官是有績效的你知道法官從事務分配制度上來看完成一個計畫你知道要花多長的時間嗎評估要拖多久嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14679.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14690.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
當你結案的時候 你完成了一個保護那個加害者處理計畫的結案你核定 然後評估結案 五個月 六個月 半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14692.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14720.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
可是呢這麼幾個月人家法院的法官還有績效評比人家結一個案子是要可能幾天一個月你處理一個加害者處遇計畫你要拖這麼久哪一個法官願意主動的去提出這種計畫所以你們司法院對於加害者處遇計畫如果有法官願意提出來你們在制度面幫了他什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14721.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14744.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
你沒有幫法官解決這個績效的問題案子 結案的速度這麼慢的問題你在事務分配上 你要不要跟他講你完成一個處理計畫 我要減少你多少的分案你有獎勵的機制嗎 沒有所以主動去做這件事 法官不是傻的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14746.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14768.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
報告委員現在我們已經啟動很久很多年了跟衛務部協商後以後這個縣市政府的衛生局跟社會局他會派有一組鑑定人員到法院我現在在問你事務性分配如果要去處理一個這個加害者處於計劃的法官那他可不可以減分案可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14771.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14786.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
是 那個目前每個法院的法官會議裡面有一部分是有這樣的一個獎勵方案但是呢一部分委員說的這個鑑定其實現在都一個月內就可以鑑定出來我們在講評估啦 不是鑑定我們在講加害者處遇計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14791.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14808.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
你要去評估這個加害者的人格以外你要評估他的經濟能力以外你還要再去評估說他對他的家庭可能的衝擊是什麼而這樣的治療會造成他家庭衝擊是什麼家人還需要哪些資源你覺得每一件都通通一個月可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14810.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14824.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這分兩部分 剛剛委員說明的部分會請加防中心去做一個評估你覺得社工 地方政府社工多如牛毛每天吃飽陰影都去幫你換衣做這些事情都須交代須做喔當然當然 沒錯 市長有辦法一個月保護師市長有辦法一個月就完成了嗎每一個縣市政府一個月就完成這個評估了嗎就提出計畫了嗎的確要看個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14834.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14840.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
對嘛所以你司法院今天是什麼單位來少家廳我是庭長鍾忠林你廳長喔我報告一下數據我們依職權跟申請的今年一到八月有28.01%比去年整年只有23.71%我想這小小的進步是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14857.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14859.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
小小的進步不要再說了我現在不說這個了你不要說這個了我要跟你說的是制度面 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14865.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14886.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
你國民法官 若是要交付國民法官審查的法官從交付開始到判決確定為止 折抵實踐 折抵事件我們這種家暴人 家害者的處遇計畫你知道攸關到一整個家庭 攸關到人格上的或是心理上的治療 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14889.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14903.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
發官要做認證的你敢不願意讓他獎勵機制回去檢討這個制度面可以嗎有一些法院是有補修制度我們整體來研擬一些建議我今天講的重點都一句就不講高檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14909.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14930.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
高檢署在8月8號發布新聞稿然後認為說監控加害人與違反保護令時同步警示被害人然後這個降低受害風險所以妥善的規劃科技設備是可行的你們是這樣講的 高檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14931.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14954.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
高檢署法學研究中心他也講了西班牙制度也講了法國制度那請問這個衛福部司法院法務部警政署8月6號我們這個委員會也排了一個專案報告8月15號接續在衛福部召開精進加暴案件司法程序延伸會議你們的重點還有後續有沒有繼續討論你們的那個會議的重點結論是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14962.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14974.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
就今天的电子监控的部分相关的部会认为这个方向可行但是有关的一些细节跟配套你这千篇一律的回答千篇一律的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14975.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14995.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
立法院法治局有一個加暴加害人科技設備監控制度比較嚴細西班牙大家都知道做這個科技監控的時候重點是你要對危害程度危險程度先做這個風險評估嘛那西班牙警察呢他們的危險評估工具叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14996.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15014.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
villain 他的系統他攻擊被害人的家庭暴力使用來評估家暴受害者遭受同一個加害人再度威脅的可能性所以他們把家暴威脅分為可忽略低的 中的 高的 極端的然後司法機關再去參採這個危險評估然後去決定警察警力資源的調派所以他們只針對高風險還有極端風險的個案去配 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15024.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15032.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
配置這個科科控的這個監控的設備所以在這裡面呢所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15034.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15057.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我剛剛講的立法院他們講了幾個想法第一個就是說 主管機關經研商檢討認為司法實務上在評估保護令合法還有加害人羈押時檢方多有困難於短時間內取得完整的個案的資料導致影響判斷的情勢那衛福部就說好那我們會去完善檢方資訊取得的管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15058.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15081.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
但是呢你們說要去建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制然後你們也說要去促成申請羈押標準的統一性那我認為是你們要給警方資訊取得的管道了OK了但是申請羈押的這一個標準的統一性我也認為他已經在我要修61條單修61條把刑度從3年提高到5年的時候某一個程度也可以適當的解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15088.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15116.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
但是唯獨建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制你要承諾了這一個是最困難的你知道一個AI殺人事件嗎就是因為錯誤的評估了這個風險導致風險評估的錯誤而而有一條人命被殺掉你知道嗎 有誰知道都沒有人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15118.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15133.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
好來因為西班牙國家警察危險評估工具叫VOHEN他用自動化的技術去建置了家庭暴力的風險評估機制但是BBC曾經在今年的4月22 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15135.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15159.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
報導指出因為演算法失靈的代價西班牙的VOH的系統誤判了家暴的風險斷送了一條寶貴的人命曾經遭前夫家暴的西班牙女子莉娜在一次被威脅的時候向警察報案遭警方用AI的系統VOH判定為中度危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15161.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15173.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
然後三個禮拜以後他就被前夫殺害了引發了民眾對於風險評估這個AI系統的保護能力的質疑你們準備怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15176.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15193.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
透過AI的確它可以增進那個案件的處理但是還是不可忽略我們在你們有足夠的人力嗎如果大量的人要來判定風險了一次幾千個而且一直累積每次都一直新增 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15193.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15214.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
每次你們要怎麼樣不是透過自動化的AI而是靠人工你有足夠的人工去判定風險嗎目前我們在這個親密關係暴力裡頭採的是替打量表那就是在第一線由社工由這個警察以及這個醫事人員在第一線接觸被害你的替打量表只有一項啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15215.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15235.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
只有對警察社工醫事人員對本案的重要記錄或相關評估意見的註記你們問的問題是說請問你是否願意警政介入協助約制對方唯一的議題問受害者你願不願意警政來介入啊願意或不願意理由是什麼就這樣子而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15236.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15264.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這樣子叫做足夠以來判斷風險嗎它有一個替打量表的8分5分以上就會進到我們的高危機所以這個部分是委員可能這個部分我們可以再加強它是用分數來做決定所以它也有可以做手動你覺得這個東西是足夠了嗎因為其實人家有教授講你們這些把這些量表然後靠著量表即便是手動 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15265.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15292.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
然後就要去判定風險其實是就跟他們現在AI做的一樣因為就填量表然後量表你從AI電腦幫你看幾分變成人幫你算幾分然後加上你最後一題所以我在講你對風險評估的手段和工具這是最核心可能你們都沒有認真想過所以今天在這裡就講說他山之石可以攻錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15294.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15322.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
曾經西班牙這樣子大家講法國法國是跟西班牙差不多但是你們評估風險的級別你們真的我光是問你們就過去的這些家庭暴力罪案違反保護令罪的整體案件數你有盤點出高風險和極端風險的比例和案件數了嗎有嗎有數據嗎有7%7%到10%左右對好7%所以我們今天在講好那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15323.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15344.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
電子監控有沒有效有沒有效科技監控防逃是來自於當初交給高檢署有一個科控中心EMC在這種狀況裡面科控設備使用率很低為什麼法務部為什麼為什麼就犯罪防逃使用率就這麼低為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15348.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15368.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
因為那個行送法116號之二修訂以後那可能大家對於這個科控的這個執行的認知沒有那麼的普遍所以後來我們也強化不要講這些 使用率有多低你知道嗎我們目前使用率有提升提升到幾套現在一共幾套在使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15369.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15373.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個數據我OK你們一共才買了1100套就加廠商送了100套現在正在執行的有33案有57套使用率5.16%那為什麼會這麼低呢這個審計部審計部指出設備使用率低的缺失以後你們有去了解原因嗎因為媒體有報導媒體是這樣講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15398.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15407.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
因為當時要看這個科控的這個效果2023年剿政署在明德外溢間試辦了一個電子手環計畫為了防脫逃嘛就讓那個外溢間都回家嘛然後再返間嘛所以今年5月的時候就示範了一個計畫結果發現5月的時候有一個帶電子手環返家探視的受刑人直接破壞電子手環逃逸藏匿 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15428.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15449.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
當然後來就把他抓回來了 但是可以看出來科控可以節省跟監人力 但是需要大量的監控人力否則無法及時發現 被監控的對象還可以逃之夭夭也就是說要隨時掌握電子腳療的訊號 對司法人力是很沉重的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15450.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15476.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
加上法官对设备信心不足以上这里我想要所讲都是媒体的报道媒体的报道来他说法官对设备信心不足也忧心警讯号不时响起生活上将要跟被告绑在一起所以科控的使用率偏低甚至有的法官画地制限因为法官必须要随时紧盯手机不论几点 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15477.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15506.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
只要收到被限制出海的被告靠近海邊的告警訊息就必須法官就要跟警方聯繫查處此外有一些被告訊號不佳法官也要迅速的下指令法官的生活要跟被告綁在一起24小時都可能會收到通報心理壓力也很大所以我們也知道法官負擔得起嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15507.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15517.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
司法院法官如果這個只是幾十件或者這個犯罪人可是如果家暴的家進來誰要承擔這個責任24小時那誰要負責呢誰要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15523.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15540.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
被告的佩戴或裝置設備更換人品告警次數異常你知道有多異常嗎曾經曾經有一個個案開案從7月13號開案到10月10號不到100天然後呢告警次數11610次11610次誰要負責司法人力誰要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15550.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15570.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
林委員不好意思喔因為這個是不是可以請會後行政機關到林委員辦公室這個不是喔這大家都要知道提案的委員也必須要知道啊提供給委員會然後詳細其他細節也請你們到那個林委員辦公室然後你剛剛相關林委員的數據請提供本委員會的我是要講說這有可能變成狼來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15571.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15584.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
因為你以為戴了這個很安全結果經常的告警訊息很多然後沒有電的啦 收訊不良的啦然後真的在破壞 試圖破壞你無從分辨 救了以後你可能司法人力會覺得 啊 這又來了一次 兩次 三次 狼來了然後就疏忽了 這個責任誰要擔待啊來 你講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15594.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15615.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
首先跟委員澄清一下關於委員剛剛的數據就我們目前那個科控部分的那個數據部分開案的部分的話在今年的部分院方已經有268件這部分因為我們之前已經有宣導過那檢方這部分有166件然後就結案的部分的話院方這邊有87件然後檢方有128件我再問你說法官啦對法官和示範人力有辦法負荷嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15617.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15632.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
這個部分的話我們會再做宣導這個是犯罪違法防逃的科控現在講家暴房子進來高檢署要負責嗎EMC誰要負責還是警察警政署誰要負責24小時監控喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15636.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15660.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那個 誰要負責 保護令的這個所謂的科控跟那個刑事訴訟的科控是不一樣我知道你們意思是說不用盯著螢幕看大概兩個距離內就會嗶嗶嗶了他這個建制可能必須要再去做妥善的這個規劃這個東西 一嗶嗶嗶的時候法官需不需要介入一嗶嗶嗶的時候警察要介入一定要 法官要不要介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15661.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15681.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
現在的目前的對阿如果防這個家暴的科控BBB就是已經違反家暴令靠近了是檢察官還是法官要介入好先這樣子吧這個淑芬委員的質詢都可以跑完一個超慢跑謝謝好接下來謝謝謝謝提醒請楊藥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15696.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15714.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
謝謝主席 主席請一下石部長請石部長央委員好部長好 部長我們今天處理就是有關家庭暴力防治法的部分修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15717.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15745.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
只要有關刑罰的東西呢都必須要把握住罪跟刑必須要相當像剛剛林淑芬委員講到的像這個我倒是沒有注意到就是違反家暴令的刑責比傷害罪輕這個顯然是有問題的因為家暴令的核發 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15746.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15773.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
通常是先有傷害才有合法通常不是全部不過通常只是因為被害人可能都是家庭裡面的成員所以他沒有直接提出刑事訴訟法的告訴是這樣子所以我覺得這個在修法的時候你們應該要贊同的就是刑度把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15774.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15803.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
把他拉到最少跟傷害罪一樣是合理的部長我請教一下就是說國內有學者研究指出我們在核發民事保護令的案件中家暴者假如有犯罪前科精神疾病或者是對被害人有嚴重的肢體暴力也就是說有暴力形象的人性暴力脅迫控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15804.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15830.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
跟監有上訴這種類型的家暴令的案件其實就是再犯率或者是違反保護令的情況會比較顯著我想要請教一下就是對於這種情形你們有沒有什麼措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15832.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15861.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
特別的措施來達到有效的對加害被害人的保護有沒有跟委員報告這大概分兩段一段有這些評估可能會提供給檢察官那麼作為在核發保護令的時候是不是要先暫時或者是用暫時保護令或者是緊急保護令的方式來執行來說短這個空窗期的這是一個用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15861.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15881.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那當然第二個呢也藉這個評估的結果如果這些情形的話那當然就要更強化比如說我們就會提供有那個110視訊的報案的APP那麼教導這個被害人那如何適當的保護自己及時的求援等等這些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15881.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15900.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那這個可能就是有關宣傳的部分還是必須要對 要多宣傳還有對第一線人員的教育因為我們就有一些制度跟措施可能需要用的人並不知道那這個就政府的責任 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15901.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15929.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我看大家大概對於家庭暴力的加害者加裝相關的科技設備監控大概還滿一致性的就是這個可以有效的防止我這邊有一個數據是澳洲的研究澳洲假如佩戴電子腳鐐的家暴者一年內再犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15930.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15958.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
家暴罪行的機率降低了三成那我第一個問題想要先請教一下部長你覺得加裝電子腳療然後降低三成這個是表示科技監控是有效的還是效果可能沒有像我們想像中那麼好降低三成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15961.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15987.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
這個報告我沒有仔細的看過啦我不曉得他這個其實我也沒有我這個問題是臨時在這裡才想到的就是說三成到底算不算是有效嚇阻像我就不覺得因為我們要算嘛就是說沒有加裝電子腳療的 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15989.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
16008.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
可能他也會他受了受了保護令的拘束他可能可能本來也會降低那加了電子腳療降低三成降低三成可能也不算是很有效那我還是那個觀念就是很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
16011.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
16037.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
很多措施的推動它並不能直接阻止遺憾的發生這個還是必須要透過長期的家庭溝通或者怎麼樣這個問題我是剛剛才想到要問的因為我的問題是在底下我的問題是這樣子就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
16040.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
16040.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
16042.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
16070.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
像西班牙 法國他們也都已經把應該世界各國有很多把家暴案件導入科技監控了而且是雙向的就是可能不只是像電子佼佼可能也可以像是我們當初部長有參與整個COVID-19的防疫過程可能像我們當初那種社群APP |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16072.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16097.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
很多國家大概都已經有導入就是說假如有接近在監控中心也會發出警告並可以發出求救的訊號提升被害人的保護的安全保護對於家暴者 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16099.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16117.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
的雙向監控被害人也可以知道加害者的動態有沒有接近當然不是說他到哪裡他都知道就是有沒有接近自己他會知道這個衛福部應該是會贊成對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16122.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16146.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
應該是這樣講如果是定點這個像監控有兩種一種是定點一種是移動式監控以我們過去執行這個COVID-19的經驗來講定點的準確率是高啦就是你就被在隔離個處鎖然後定在那個地方如果你這個訊號有移出我們就會打電話確認你在哪裡這個執行上應該是比較沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16147.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16153.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
但是這種移動式的在剛剛您提到那個社群APP那個那個錯誤率還蠻高的當時候在執行那個Force Along是蠻高的因為這個應該是我還是要講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16164.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16187.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
當然我們對於家庭暴力的防治必須要很盡心可是罪行還是要相當因為我看電子腳療通常是用於防止逃亡目前是用防止逃最主要是這樣子那假如說要把它加在 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16191.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16199.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
家庭暴力的加害人會不會過度我這邊沒有立場會不會過度 我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16201.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16226.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
大家應該要想一想我們等到足調的時候大家好好討論那當然最好的方式可能就是我們看怎麼精進當初COVID-19的經驗做出單項的警示三項可能跟司法單位的三項的監控這樣子應該是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16227.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16251.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員發言接下來請先宣告一下那個便當發下去我怕大家太辛苦大家可以邊吃那接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席麻煩石部長請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16256.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16276.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
今天針對這個主題想要跟您討論兩個事情一個就是家暴風險評估應該要跨部會的資訊串接那第二部分就是很高興我們最近兒童整個照顧要提高成績所以以兒童為中心的政策成績的跟您來討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16277.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16305.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那我們也了解在這個家暴的處理過程當中風險評估的系統是非常非常重要的因為透過好的系統我們才有辦法讓這個家暴未來的對我們兒少的影響會最少那我們也很期待衛福部作為主管機關一定要跨到做到跨部會的即時資訊的串接那我們也知道目前根據家庭暴力防治法的第五條裡面它其實已經有明文規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16306.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16336.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
在第1項第7款當中規定說中央主管機關應該要統籌建立管理家庭暴力電子資料庫供法官檢察官警察醫師護理人員心理師還有社會工作人員等等其他政府機關使用並要對被害人身份予以保密在今天的部長的書面報告裡面好像說無需再重複規範因為看起來法條裡面都已經說明了很完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16337.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16358.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
可是也有委員擔心說那這些網絡會議的處理是不是真的能夠像我們所法條規定這麼嚴整那其實我們也擔心為什麼我們要持續強調這個重要性那可不可以麻煩這個法務部張司長還有司法部中廳長跟內政部警政署的李副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16359.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16379.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
我們希望能夠確認這些資料的串接狀況是非常非常符合我們所有在處理過程當中很完整的部分那目前這個家暴案件裡面你們有拿到全部的風險評估的資料嗎如何串接它的即時性如何可不可以就現況讓我們也稍微了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16381.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16394.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
跟委員簡單說明這個家庭暴力電子資料庫這個平台我們是建立的那主要是針對有通報的或者是申請保護令的這些相關的資訊我們是把它放在這上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16396.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16416.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那不曉得這個還有沒有什麼可以再精進的地方是 可以請三位部會的出席的長官稍微讓我們也知道一下目前串接的過程裡面有沒有碰到哪一些比較困難那部長剛才也說在增進的部分還可以怎麼精進可不可以讓大家都了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16417.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16445.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
跟委員報告我是司法院部分我少教廳廳長那麼這一部分我們持續由我們幾個網絡部門在進行這個網絡借接的一個這個這樣的一個工作行程那預計在明年4月把這些網絡借接把它借接起來那將來我們這些辦案的人員透過這種帳密就可以去查到這些資料共享這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16446.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16473.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
明年四月會完成完成開始做一個try測試這是第一部分因為非常重要的是我們司法院在法律的修正後我們有一個非常重要的規定是申請延長保護令我們必須在立即通報網絡去保護被害人的安全那這種通報如果沒有這種網絡立即的借接速度太慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16474.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16495.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
因為這樣才整合這個剛剛委員所說的很重要的網絡的一個危險的一個資訊一起把它整合起來是的確就是我們最擔心的所以如果能夠目前當然一直在解決有相關的困難的地方一直在開會解決這樣那警政署那邊有要補充嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16497.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16513.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
跟委員報告 目前我們衛福部所建立的這個相關的系統是有開放給警察各個分局的單位包括偵查隊或者加防官他們是有站密 然後可以登錄查詢目前的狀況是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16514.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16531.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
好那最後還有其他要再補充的謝謝跟委員報告法務部那也感謝衛福部有提供我們相關的資訊讓我們在這個偵辦案件的時候可以從我們單一窗口那利用帳號密碼就可以去查詢一些保護令的通報紀錄以及保護令的裁定所以可以無縫銜接 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16532.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16561.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
目前可以查詢到的相關資訊就是保護令的通報紀錄跟保護令的裁定在法務部這邊好謝謝那三位長官請回是其實我們了解在這次這個北市中大案件裡面的移送過程裡面並沒歷次的這個通信通報紀錄裡面檢視警政服務系統僅能查詢相關的暴力案件的通報紀錄是真的有他的一些不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16562.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16583.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那請問這個部長目前研商會議以後資料串接的進度如何如何跟相關的這個系統做串接部長還可以再進一步說明就是主要是那個即時性當初在這個會議當中大家在反映的是即時性這後面都會有啦但是如何能夠更快的 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16584.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16605.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
不是用後面的批次上傳那種交換的方式 而是更即時性所以我們會來追蹤一下看看這個即時性的部分如何再提高就是法院這邊有判決 如何更即時性的讓第一線的警察機關可以得知這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16606.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16633.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
好 謝謝大家繼續努力那再過來是以兒童為中心的政策層級這個其實大家都已經期待非常久了上一次部長也說明了一些狀況那最近賴總統更是宣布要設立兒童及家庭署那目前我們看到的這個架構是目前社家署的這個架構兒童福利值是其中的一組所以相對來講 權限各方面是真的受到很大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16634.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16655.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那未來再到二零二八年我們會有第二期的計畫四年會投入到一百三十五點六億這樣的經費來希望能夠提高對兒童的照顧那我們也看了日本日本他們其實有非常豐沛的這方面的組織架構跟人力的配置光一個兒童廳他們就有五百一十名的所有官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16656.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16674.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那目前如果希望能夠提升這個照顧的需求的話那我們在計畫上是怎麼去落實這樣的政策那有沒有完成跟日本相關的兒童家庭廳制度的對接跟差距的評估這部分也會請部長在這邊再強調跟說明謝謝委員給我這個機會說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16679.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16707.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
這個我們現在所規劃的這個兒少及家庭支持署是一個新設的單位不是這個社家署改個名字而已但是會把現行在社家署裡面那個兒童福利跟這個家庭支持這兩個組會一起移到這個新的這個新設的這個兒家署裡面來同時也會把這個兒童的保護業務福利還有健康政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16708.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16723.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
這個也會把它融入到這一個署裡面來所以我們會盡量的去爭取這個緣額讓他可以這個全責相扶啦是 所以目前的華研依據組織架構人力跟預算的規劃都已經成熟了 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16724.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16746.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
已經在內部一直在盤點這些哪些業務要移入然後他的這個幾個組然後這個編制怎麼樣我們會完成之後送到先修改這個組織法修訂組織法送到行政院來核定之後再報立法院來審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16747.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16767.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
好我們希望這樣能夠有跨部會的權限喔不然的話討論起來會相對是比較弱勢一點好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請劉許廷委員發言謝謝主席石部長有請有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16771.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16800.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
委員好部長午安辛苦了這個我想家暴的防治也不應該只是衛福部的責任因為其實有法令也有相關的一些執行那當然也有一些預防等等所以其實不管法務部司法院教育部等等應該相互合作處理這個事但我們今天質詢也不是要指責誰因為最近發生一些悲劇我們希望可以從制度面的層面探討解決問題那現在家暴法我們看相關的一些很多提案修法的方向都是在增加罰則每次遇到問題我們就增加罰則當然有一定的嚇阻效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16800.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16814.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
但我想在面對新北市土城這個案子就是先申請了保護令但是在程序中並沒有實施預防性羈押然後到後來回過頭來採取了更極端的作為導致了人命的損失增加罰則對於這樣的案例有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16816.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16841.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
因為這個案子有兩種一種是已經違反了這個保護令然後這個有沒有羈押成立或者是這個給予更強制性的一些這個措施對啊 所以顯然沒辦法預防對不對我只是增加法則沒有用嘛 對不對那第二個問題是我們的家暴法31條之一有規定預防性羈押相關的一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16843.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16871.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
配套措施但這樣的案子裡面其實有多次家暴的記錄啊以這個土城的案子來講也因為違反保護令有進到法庭的程序裡面嘛但是怎麼樣來講都是摸不到那個預防性羈押的門檻嘛所以當然在法務部等等在執行的時候法院的體系在執行的時候最後只能無保次回嘛那無保次回之後就發現是破洞了嘛那現在現行的條件我們除了講說要增加罰則增加嚇阻效果之外我們要不要考慮提高一下預防性羈押的應該說降低一下預防性羈押的門檻部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16873.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16892.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
預防性羈壓剛剛其實在林委員質詢的時候有特別提到啦他那個刑度的關係讓這個要羈壓的可能性降低所以這個是可以未來來討論可以討論對不對好謝謝我就要聽這句話因為本期的提案雖然現在還在連署但我們提案的方向其實就是鬆綁相關的門檻現在我們衛福部針對家暴風險有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16896.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16920.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
TIPVDA這個要怎麼唸TIDA我剛有稍微聽到這個叫做親密關係危險暴力評估表1234危不危險等等它其實是一個初判那初判裡面其實你也有提說你需不需要政府介入來做協助那本席的建議是這樣就不妨用這一張表當作一個很好的切入基準也就是說在這一張表上你當然可以調整一下內容跟介入的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16921.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16947.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
如果符合被害人或者是高風險被害人他心裡的恐懼等等程度等等到一定的程度他其實就應該跟可不可以採取預防性羈押進行掛鉤嘛換言之這個分數達到非常非常高的時候我直接可以處理預防性羈押我是不是比起現在我要什麼反覆再犯而且有明確事實證明反覆再犯我才能做預防性羈押來得強得多部長你覺得咧我們要不要考慮一下修正這張表跟修正相關的法條讓他可以掛鉤就是說這個TIDA的兩表他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16952.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16970.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
叫做預測準確性 它是高危機個案的預測目前這個當然可以提供給法官在裁量的時候的一個參考對 現在只是參考嘛 但都沒有強制要沒有強制性的那怎麼去精進這個 我們可以再回過頭來看一下這個量表 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16973.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16986.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
並不是這個每一個這個就跟前面這個委員有提到我幫你講啦他可能不能當成唯一標準但他是眾多標準之一對不對好我們把 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16988.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17003.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
把問題拉開來看就是說高風險個案進行預防性羈押可不可以讓被害人有更充足的時間跟心理壓力可以進行生活圈的徹底隔離從技術上跟政策方向應該要做到這個事嘛好那我們就要針對這個事嘛本期的版本的意思大概的概念是這樣就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17005.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17026.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
以現在修法現在的版本要預防性羈押只能違反保護令然後成立嫌疑重大然後反覆實行的事實認證嘛這是這麼多的三管五卡你才能羈押所以羈押率非常低然後所以出現各種破洞本期的版本是這樣違反保護令或者成立相關的家暴已經有犯罪事實或者有事實認證反覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17027.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17042.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
這些跟之前都一樣 你是採取連級任何之一都可以 加上這一張表認定達一定標準 認定成為高風險者這樣子的方向 請問衛福部是否贊同這個方向我們支持 加上我們這個評估非常感謝 這我們希望喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17043.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17061.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
這個兩表我們還需要再兩表跟著精進都沒有問題我相信衛福部跟相關人等的專業最後花一點點時間因為很多人都大家都希望法律還可以保障人權但是我想部長應該也蠻清楚這年頭就是亂世嘛治亂世要用重點現在這都已經討論到詐騙犯要不要用鞭刑了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17062.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17089.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
所以說大家的民意的主流焦慮跟期待是害怕這些事情傷害到本來大家寧靜安正常的生活所以還在過度的保護加害人其實是不合時宜的所以我認為把家暴相關預防性階段的門檻往下降我覺得應該是合於社會大眾的期待也有助於遏止家暴的發生啦好不好那就希望版本進來的時候衛福部會有開放的心態當然可以提意見但我們往這個方向前進可以嗎可以可以好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17093.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17106.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
謝謝劉許廷委員發言接下來請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在接下來請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17108.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17132.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
本日會議詢答全部結束委員傅坤祺審發會所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報做以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定現在宣讀提案條文內容若有修正動議一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17135.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17152.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案委員葉元之等十八人委員王玉敏等十六人委員邱振軍等十八人委員蘇星權等十八人委員廖先祥廖先祥等二十二人委員郭育晴等十七人委員羅廷偉等十六人委員廖偉祥等十六人提案現行法條文對照表 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17153.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17179.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
委員廖先祥等22人提案第二條 增訂第七款如下七 電子保護令 指裝置全球定位系統依加害人及被害人雙方距離提出警示之電子設備或程式予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等17人提案第二條 修正第三項如下三 目睹家庭暴力 指看見 聽聞或其他感官察覺家庭暴力予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17180.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17195.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
委員邱振均等18人提案第5條於第1項第5款聚首增戀建立家庭暴力高風險評估機制頓好予以現行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第13條新增第1項至第4項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17196.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17223.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
申請保護令時得並同申請電子保護令法院核發電子保護令後由警察機關執行追蹤及管理並命相對人佩戴具全球定位系統之電子定位裝置並應同步提供被害人接收及時警示之設備或程式主觀警察機關應於保護令核發後24小時內完成加害人之裝置佩戴與被害人之警報系統設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17224.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17244.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
並向相對人及被害人為使用說明與告知相對人外出因全程佩戴電子定位裝置且不得以任何方式故意拆除損壞隱匿丟棄或阻斷設備電子保護令之撤銷除被害人申請外相對人檢察官警察機關得與情勢變更或已無 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17246.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17275.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
持續危險之事實存在時向法院申請撤銷法院審查時應依職權調查相對人過往履行保護令之情況並經輔導被害人之心理師設攻擊被害人之意見審酌後方得撤銷電子保護令之申請條件執行方式裝置規格資料保全通知機制及其他應遵行事項除奔發所規定事項外由衛生福利部會同相關機關定相關實施辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17276.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17296.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
現行第一至第八項 第一為第五至第十二項委員郭玉琴等17人提案第十四條修正第一項第十款如下10 命相對人完成加害人處遇計畫 處遇計畫期間不得有拒絕參與 中斷參與或無故未依執行單位指定時間地點參與之行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17298.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17326.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
第二項據莫增列文字如下分號為維護未成年子女安全或福祉法院應依職權審酌其家庭狀況並得依職權核發該未成年子女之保護令與被害人之保護令合併審理與裁定若父母雙方皆為未成年子女之保護令申請人法院應優先考量子女之最佳利益並就各申請人與子女之關係分別為適當之裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17328.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17350.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
於第三項前段句末增列文字如下句號但經法院認定相對人有施以暴力或有對被害人造成嚴重危害之餘等高風險情勢法院因強制命相對人接受有無必要施以精神治療戒癮治療及其他治療處於計畫之鑑定評估修正第四項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17351.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17367.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
第一項第十款制裁定應在明處遇計畫完成期限處遇計畫執行單位應定期向法院及直轄市縣市主管機關提交書面報告詳述相對人參與計畫之狀況出席情形態度及進展評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17368.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17388.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
增列第五項如下法院審閱前項報告後若認為相對人有在施暴之餘或其他高風險情勢得命直轄市縣市主管機關對相對人進行追蹤輔導並得在民輔導期限方式及內容予以現行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17389.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17407.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
新增第三項如下不經審理程序之暫時保護令應於申請日期五日內已書面核發暫時保護令並得以電信傳真或其他科技設備傳送緊急保護令與警察機關現行第三至第七項第一為第四至第八項 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17407.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17427.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
予以现行法同委员廖先祥等22人提案第19条修正第一项如下法院应采取必要措施确保被害人或证人得于安全无余之环境出庭并于停讯后安全返回其居所庇护处所或其他指定地点予以现行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17428.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17446.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
委員王玉明等16人提案第30條之一修正第三句前面文字為檢察官偵查犯罪經被害人陳述其相處經驗與意見並詢問被告後認為被告犯違反保護令者並修正默劇為得向法院申請羈押予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17448.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17465.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
委員王維銘等16人提案第31條增列第一項第五款如下5 接受適當之科技設備監控並使被害人目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員知悉其位置現行第五款 第一為第六款 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17466.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17489.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
增列第二項如下前項第五款科技設備監控之實施機關構人員方式程序及被害人之息等事項之執行辦法由中央主管機關會同司法院法務部定之現行第二至第三項第一為第三至第四項並修正第三項據守文字前項為第一項予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17490.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17494.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
委員蘇清泉等18人提案第31條修正第1項第5款如下5 接受適當之科技設備監控或其他保護安全之事項予以現行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第31條增列第3項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17507.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17531.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
檢察官或法院任被告無羈押必要且申請民事保護令時未附加申請電子保護令被害人檢察官法院 警察機關或直轄市縣市主管機關得當庭或另以書面 言辭 電信傳真或其他科技設備傳送之方式向法院申請電子保護令現行第三項 第一為第四項 予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17531.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17556.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
委員郭玉琴等17人提案第31條 增列第1項第5款如下5 接受適當之科技設備監控 現行第5款 以列為第6款 予以現行法同委員廖偉祥等16人提案第31條 修正第1項第5款如下5 接受電子科技監控之軟硬體設備或其他保護安全之事項 予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17558.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17585.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
委員邱振均等18人提案第31條增列第一項第五款如下 五 命相對人接受適當之科技設備監控現行第五款 第一為第六款 增列第二項如下前項第五款科技設備監控 因使被害人目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員及時掌握被告行蹤 其實施機關構人員方式程序及其他相關事項之執行辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17586.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17606.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
由中央主管機關會同相關機關定之與委員王玉敏等十六人提案同委員羅廷輝等十六人提案第三十一條增列第一項第五款如下五接受電子監控措施包括佩戴定位設備或其他必要科技工具現行第五款第一為第六款 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17607.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17626.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
予以現行法同委員王玉明等16人提案第35條增訂第二項如下依第31條第1項第5款實施科技設備監控之被告故意拆除損壞隱匿阻斷科技監控設備警察人員得強制其到檢察署或檢察官指定之處所 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17627.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17641.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
由檢察署派員回覆科技監控設備正常運作相關機關並依法令規定為後續處理予以現行法同委員邱真君等18人提案第35條增訂第二項如下經本法第31條及第38條實施科技設備監控者 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17644.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17666.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
故意拆除損壞隱匿阻斷科技監控設備經檢察署通報警察機關司法警察官或司法警察應及時強制其到檢察署或檢察官指定之處所由檢察署派員回覆科技監控設備正常運作相關機關並依法令規定為後續處理予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17667.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17685.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
委員王玉明等16人提案第38條增訂第二項第6款如下6 命相對人接受適當之科技設備監控並使被害人目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員知悉其位置現行第6款 第1為第7款增列第5項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17686.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17710.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
依第二項附保護管束且經實施科技設備監控之加害人故意拆除損壞隱匿阻斷科技監控設備經檢察署通報警察機關司法警察官或司法警察得強制其到檢察署或檢察官指定之處所由檢察署派員回覆科技監控設備正常運作相關機關並依法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17711.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17737.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
規定為後續處理 現行第五項 第一為第六項予以現行法同 委員邱振均等十八人提案第38條增訂第二項第五款如下 五 接受適當之科技設備監控現行第五六款 第一為第六七款 增訂第三項如下法院依前項第五款規定 命相對人接受適當之科技設備監控準用本法第31條第二項之規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17739.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17767.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
現行第三項第一為第四項修正手續為法院依第一項第六款規定現行第四至第五項第一為第五至第六項予以現行法同委員廖新祥等二十二人提案第三十八條第二項序文據莫增列文字如下逗號必要時得以電子保護令強化管束予以現行法同委員葉元之等十八人提案第六十條修正第二項手續後面文字如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17767.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17787.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
因含二小時以上之家庭暴力防治活動並得於總時數不變下彈性安排於各學年實施增訂第三項如下前項課程及活動之內容由教育主管機關擬定予以先行法同委員廖先祥等22人提案第61條修正第一項序文末二句為 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17788.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17802.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
除5年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或併科新台幣50萬元以下罰金增訂第二項如下電子保護令保護期間若相對人違反第13條第二項第14條第一項第二款其中禁止相對人對於被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17803.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17826.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或其特定家庭成員為騷擾接觸跟蹤之規定為違反電子保護令罪應依下列規定給予警告告誡或處以刑罰一 相對人近被害人500公尺內應以訊息或其他具持續性之警示通知相對人遠離被害人並同步通知被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17827.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17850.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
二相對人近被害人300公尺內主管警察機關得經被害人同意後以口頭或書面告誡相對人並全程監控追蹤至相對人遠離被害人500公尺距離三遣款告誡後加害人仍未依循警方指示離開保護令範圍將以違反電子保護令罪處一年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17850.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17860.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
居易科或丙科新台幣10萬元以下罰金相對人於不同時點或場所違反前款規定應視為個別違反行為得按次處罰相對人外出時應全程佩戴電子定位裝置不得以任何方式故意拆除損壞隱匿丟棄或阻斷設備違者處以三年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17873.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17896.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
居易或科或病科新台幣30萬元以下罰金予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等17人提案第61條修正第5款如下5 完成加害人處遇計畫或有拒絕參與 中斷參與或無故未依執行單位指定時間地點參與處遇計畫之行為予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17899.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17921.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
第一案第十四條增列第一項第十二款及第十三款如下十二 命相對人與一定期間內佩戴科技設備接受監控並接受電子唯利警示十三 命相對人與被害人及其指定之特定人配發具備雙項警示及定位功能之通訊設備現行第十二至第十六款 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17921.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17947.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
第一為第十四至第十八款予以現行法同第三十條之一修正第四句後面文字如下有違反第十四條第一項各款行為或有破壞規避科技監控設備之餘或有事實足認反覆實施家庭暴力有加害被害人或家庭成員生命身體健康之餘而有羈押之必要者得羈押之第六十一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17948.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17972.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
修正第一項序文最高刑期為五年罰金為五十萬元增列第二項如下犯前條之罪而有下列情形之一者處七年以上有期徒刑一至被害人或其特定家庭成員受重傷二至被害人或其特定家庭成員死亡予以現行法同提案人委員盧憲一連署人委員蘇清泉陳昭芝宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17976.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17995.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
好報告聯席會我們今天的議程就先進行到這裡如果沒有異議的話做以下決議家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案等八案尚未審查完略另則其繼續審查本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18021.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18037.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
在違反的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18045.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18045.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
謝謝大家 |