| IVOD_ID |
170407 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170407 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2026070378 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「教育經費編列與管理法」修法公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會公聽會（事由：「教育經費編列與管理法」修法公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-09T10:58:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-09T11:09:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/819c86070d9120f73a1caf8526510028ca40331ed4d95832daab8b1e00aaf117c86df9d5e1265cba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:58:03 - 11:09:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會公聽會（事由：「教育經費編列與管理法」修法公聽會） |
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主席 在場關心教育的夥伴首先用這一句話來向各位教育的夥伴致意我常聽說 福魯貝爾說教育之道無他 礙於榜樣而已說得非常理想 但是理想豐滿 現實很骨感 |
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難道教育的圓釘照顧我們國家幼苗靠著榜樣跟水就夠了嗎其實還有肥料 還有很多的設施所以當我們今天在討論教育經費編列與管理法的時候其實我們是非常務實地在討論這些很庸俗的物質的條件怎麼樣去豐富我們的愛與榜樣 |
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所以呢我們來看一看這套法它在什麼樣的背景之下被催生的當年我在國民大會的時候我們將15%的教育經費很清楚的在憲法裡面明白的表達那麼我們的丁丁我們當年一心努力 |
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後來才有這個教育經費編列與管理法規定要21.5%看起來框定了一個預算的數額所以接下來就是誰的事接下來大家要處理三件事情要確定中央跟地方政府有足額編列對不對我們剛剛看到教育部啊財政部都在講這個啊財化法之後不能只要求中央足額編列啊地方也要啊誰編多誰編少糟糕了兩個加起來21.5就開始大家在推了 |
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第二個呢 是要核實編列這些項目是不是真的用在教育上可是在核實編列的同時 決定它是不是我們要的項目他說哪個項目多 哪個項目少哇 說到這裡就傷感情了這跟我想到的 我講兩個例子一個就是我們台灣引以為傲 享譽國際的健保健保一個特色 叫做總額支付制 |
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對不對當總額框定了那麼各科各科的醫師啊就在爭奪在每個科別下的健保給付我看那個場景啊彷彿就是在今天的情況在場我們覺得有家長團體就要覺得或者說終身教育啦或者說營養午餐啦或者說各式各樣的大學教育跟國民醫務教育大家就在討論說哪一邊比較重要哪一邊要分得比較多這就是問題來了 |
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當你框進腫了的時候好像接下來就是分配的事情要怎麼去分配可是我覺得這個法裡面還有一個最重要的問題就是有效使用的問題有效使用才是我們教育編列 |
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與管理法的核心你這些項目分配了之後是不是達到效果呢就跟我們的健保一樣今天健保在不同的科別當中我們去挪移效果在哪裡是國民健康的維護 |
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所以我是覺得單單就編列與管理來討論似乎我們需要有一個評估教育的效益剛剛不小心提到了健保我這兩天跟前署長有討論到他說現在健保的危機在於我們的門徵幾乎佔比太高 |
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住院給付占比太少人家說現在醫事進步了啊應該很多一日手術不用住院治療啊其實這涉及到商業保險的問題住院才給付嘛不住院商業保險不給付了大家在討論的議題但這位前署長說問題要問的健保的目的當初不是要管大病不管小病嗎 |
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| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
256.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
當初我們說部分負擔是要透過部分擔讓使用者要付費但是保險是保什麼保大的風險不是保日常平常的消費所以他說當住院幾戶的比重下跌的時候我們發現這個健保的資源用在我們的感冒發燒這些日常生活的小病小痛真正性命攸關的大病重大疾病有沒有得到適當的照顧那才是保險的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
257.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
278.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
他這番話陣容發聵啊我拿來跟大家參考一下在我們的教育現場我們有沒有思考到到底這些項目的分配有沒有符合我們全體國家教育的目標這個我們來想想看另外剛剛不小心講到了營養午餐跟大家介紹除了健保一個領域之外我其他另外一個國家我最近回來了叫做印尼 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
307.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
印尼的前總統佐科威他後來提拔了一個跟他的對頭一個軍事強人應該說是一個軍人一個將領他叫做蘇比安托蘇比安托他來當印尼的總統他最大的政見叫供應全印尼的學童午餐印尼有多少人大家知道嗎2.8億人口他要達到這個政策目標要耗費他們國家資源的6% |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
310.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
334.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
結果呢 民眾很期待 總統上來要希望全民都有營養午餐可是營養午餐開始實施的時候呢 必併一大堆本來印尼它在聯能政治部分 就是在亞洲排名比較後面的它的公餐的系統 不像台灣 我們有相對良好的食安跟管理出了一大堆 弊案 貪腐 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
335.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
357.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
而我們的教育經費如果說21.5%拿6%來支應午餐大家覺得這符合我們的教育效益嗎所以當我們在思考說哪些項目要納進來的時候我們要反省說到底我們的教育效益要怎麼衡量剛剛在我之前的賴思寶委員他講了一個重點我覺得非常好就是教師的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
368.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
教師是我們教育現場當中不可能用AI去取代的一個份子你會希望未來你的孩子是由AI來教他還是由真人的教師來教他 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
369.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
難道我們要用AI來做愛語榜樣嗎當然是教師嘛所以教師的待遇當然要提高啊但是當我們把教師待遇提高的時候餅就這麼大那我們要怎麼去處理其他的分配呢我再講個跟印尼有點關係的就是剛剛也有委員提到少子化在半個世紀前後的差別在戰後嬰兒潮從1945年到1965年我也是其中之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
421.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們表示什麼 當國家實施國民教育的時候啊那麼多的人需要國民教育 國家資源那麼少他雨露均沾 而且他沒有辦法照顧每一個人所以那時候我們的教育強調的是什麼 競爭跟爭別啊只有相對資質好的有機會往上抬升只有認真孩子呢 才有辦法得到更多的教育資源 不是嗎聯考就是這樣子啊 我們都是這樣來的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
423.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那個時候啊重點放在哪裡重點放於孩子那麼多我們是淘汰制啊就像有一片鳳梨田鳳梨那麼多在熱帶你挑什麼 挑品質好 甜度夠的你再來賣再跟主席爭取一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
440.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
461.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以如果你是要賣鳳梨啊你大概把鳳梨分級這個生吃的好一點的做鳳梨酥更高檔的做鳳梨巧克力最高檔的那種萬眾選一的來做鳳梨香水因為可以賣最高錢鳳梨就是這樣子所以在鳳梨風產的國家鳳梨是淘汰制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
485.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但是如果我們的孩子是少子化是寶石 是礦石的時候那麼你會覺得有鑽石礦的淘汰制嗎哎呀 這個鑽石礦不好 我不要了我只挑好的來加工 不是當原料稀少的時候加工是重點所以當我們看寶石加工的時候你不會把寶石淘汰你會著重在雕刻師的手藝 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
487.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在教育現場孩子如果是礦石是寶石老師就是這個雕刻師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
494.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你寧可雕刻師的手藝壞雕壞了你的礦石還是希望說任何的礦在精巧的雕刻師的手中都成為光輝燦爛的寶石呢當然是後者嘛所以以寶石來形容現在的掃紙化國家不是在稀少的原石掃紙化去做淘汰跟甄別而是要去強化這些寶石雕刻師的手藝跟技能 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
522.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
550.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那當然你不能用香蕉的價格香蕉來聘請香蕉只能聘請到猴子不能聘請到獅子啊當然我沒有歧視樹獅子的意思啦通常講這句話意思是說你付多少錢就能拿到多少能力的人來為你服務教育也是如此但是如果當我們提升教育待遇的時候我們來看一下現在教育現場這個情況教徵很難考啊但是在職的教師都想逃亡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
552.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
575.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這怎麼回事?因為我們的設計對教師提供的機制、經驗的分配有了問題當我們提升待遇的同時我們是增加了求職的競爭但是我們目前在職的競爭會是未來在我們教育現場另外一個必須要面對的未來我們在教育現場面臨淘汰競爭的不是孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
576.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
595.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
是老師是老師因為孩子越來越少不可替代老師呢你當然要花高興請好的來但是請來了這個和尚會不會念經還是看這個孩子有沒有表現有沒有潛心向佛有沒有一心向善所以後面的職場的競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
598.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
就非常的重要因此呢當我們在討論教育經費的編列的時候我個人這邊提出要提高對教師待遇的提升但是也要強化教師在職場的競爭如果再說得更白一點路軌一點不怕老師們不高興就是太粗啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
617.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
629.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
如果沒有足夠的待遇大家把教師視為一個鐵腕腕那麼大家就要求保障跟待遇都是普普但是當我們提高待遇的時候我們就可以把競爭強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
631.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
654.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
不是在入職的競爭不是在求職的競爭而是在職場的競爭教師的競爭從哪裡看呢從學生的學習表現看學生的學習表現不再是我們決定他可不可以往上去獲得更多的教育資源而是學生的學習表現用來評量要不要讓這個教師有更好的教師來帶這個不可替換的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
655.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
680.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以在今天我斗膽的藉此我們談教育經費編列與管理法我們來重新思考今天談的不只是教育資源它如何經費怎麼編列項目怎麼核實中央跟地方怎麼分配而是要談有沒有辦法一個有效的衡量這些教育資源投入的效益而當中我還是主張最應該大力投入的就是教師的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
681.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
699.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
但是我們相對的要提高教師不管是大學教師還是國民教育階段的教師應該他們在職的時候的競爭讓最優秀的教師留下來照顧我們國家最稀少最不可替代的像寶石一樣珍惜的下一代 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
699.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
716.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
以上來這裡誠懇的來救教我們教育界的工作夥伴希望在我們的崗位上可以跟我們昭偉一樣出生自教育關懷教育現身教育我們共同來完成我們台灣我們理想中的教育謝謝好 非常非常的感謝 |