| IVOD_ID |
17038 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17038 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-17T08:39:53+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-17T13:55:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:15:07 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685ac4602610d545ba2d438b86726106632914d0d15f34b2c029ffdbef0ad2b26365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查
(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。
(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。
(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。
(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。
(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。
(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。
(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。
(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。
(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。
(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
【綜合詢答，僅詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:39:53 - 13:55:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員人數10人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1225.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1253.925 |
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立法院第十一屆第四會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年11月13日星期四9時至14時17分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭姿等15人列席委員林委員德夫等17人列席官員衛生福利部部長石崇良等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1255.086 |
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1272.042 |
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癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討進行專題報告並被質詢本日會議專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答經委員羅廷偉 王振旭林月琴 蘇巧慧 陳金輝 陳昭芝代表臺灣民眾黨黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1273.783 |
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1293.555 |
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及劉建國說明提案指去由衛生福利部部長報告及說明後委員陳昭芝等24人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員代群方及各相關主管等及其答覆委員陳冠廷及徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1294.295 |
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1295.316 |
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請問委員會 上次醫事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1325.001 |
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1353.461 |
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沒有議事錄確定那本日會議議程為審查委員分別擬據勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案計30案第二個是審查委員黨團分別擬據就業服務法部分條文修正草案計12案那討論事項才綜合詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1355.424 |
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1382.657 |
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在場有陳昭資委員林國成委員蘇清泉委員王振旭委員林月琴委員林倩琪委員王育明委員陳瑩委員徐欣盈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1387.506 |
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1412.571 |
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列席官員勞動部部長洪森漢部長勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉署長勞工保險局局長白立貞局長勞動基金運用局局長蘇玉清蘇局長職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1415.355 |
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1434.725 |
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勞動及職業安全衛生研究所所長王厚誠 所長勞動關係司司長王厚偉 王司長勞動保險司司長陳美女 陳司長勞動福祉退休司司長黃維琛 黃司長勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃綺雅 黃司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1442.392 |
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1467.623 |
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勞動法務司司長傅惠芝副司長會計處處長林美信處長財政部國庫署主任秘書羅信榮羅祖密行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員王厚吉衛生福利部社會保險司代理司長陳真惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1469.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1494.589 |
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農業部農民輔導司檢任繼政王東良王繼政法務部參事汪南君汪參事內政部移民署移民事務組專門委員李明芳李專委國家發展委員會人力發展處檢任秘書張雅玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1496.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1522.885 |
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教育部青年發展署組長張靜穎現在請提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘請陳穎委員說明陳穎委員等一下嗎好那我們先請林國誠委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1535.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1546.098 |
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謝謝我們今天召委特別排有關勞工權利的這個修法所以再次謝謝也謝謝所有的官員大家都知道台灣勞工保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1548.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1553.784 |
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確定是現在是1053084人所以這是9月份的所以上千2300多萬人口1000多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1565.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1588.297 |
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就是勞工保險所以有關這個我看到這些修法確確實實本席等32位我也要謝謝我們的部長過去的立法委員他也參與連署這次本席提案的66條跟69條66條主要是要把它法制化要撥補 |
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1590.778 |
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1604.33 |
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69條是不要口口聲聲就告訴勞工我政府會負責我們也只要求微薄的希望希望最終給付的華之化那大家知道 |
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1605.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1629.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
勞保當然是有黑洞可是這個黑洞我們要了解為什麼黑洞從台灣省政府動省之後把移交中央的時候那個時候根本沒有精算也沒有移交 只移交業務沒有移交財務所以這個部分黑洞的形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1630.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1653.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
全部在這個部分所以現在口口聲聲告訴人家勞保要倒 勞保要倒你知道這一千多萬的勞工他心裡面什麼感覺嗎所以還要來繳多 零少 延後退這對勞工是不公平的所以財務的黑洞是從這裡來那我也希望我們勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1655.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1681.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
得到一個微薄的保障很簡單就是把它法制化所以本席等32位提出這些法制化很簡單就是66條撥補法制化我相信15年到20年勞保的問題就會解決所以我同意前部長所講撥補就是救勞保的一種那我們也謝謝這幾年確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1684.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1708.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
勞動部是有在勞工基金這裡撥補這個我們謝謝但是不要追究責任勞工要的是一個法治化所以希望66條法治撥補化69條就是政府最終給付化所以這是本席等32位提案的這些宗旨謝謝大家 感謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1710.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1715.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
謝謝林國成委員說明接下來請王玉民委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1722.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1748.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
主席各位先進大家好今天未還委員會很重要的是我們要審查勞保條例第66條跟69條到目前9月為止我們全國的勞工已經來到1053萬0846人但是我們從2017年開始事實上我們的整個保費的收入跟支出就已經達到不平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1749.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1766.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
一直到現在持續九年的時間所以千萬的勞工都一直在擔心有一種恐懼就是勞保會不會破產如果勞保破產他辛辛苦苦一輩子他想要領到的退休金可能就付諸流水 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1767.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1790.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以為了要讓千萬的勞工可以安心那現在的民進黨政府喊出撥補即是改革但是他不應該只是一個口號而是應該要把撥補的責任最終支付的責任入法入法之後才可以讓千萬的勞工安心有政府在勞保不會倒這句話才不會是空話 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1792.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1807.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以今天本席也提出來這樣子的一個改革的修正案希望今天在委員會的討論可以順利的通過另外我也要特別提我們現在整個勞保基金收支的短處情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1808.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1820.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
其實持續惡化中我們看到2024年收支短處已經來到665億到2026年也就是明年的時候來到1015億那到2031年的時候我們整個勞保基金會呈現負的846億 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1828.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1853.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
也就是說在持續的往下走之後即使我們現在有把撥補入法但是基金他的這個將來的負債的情況並沒有百分之百的解決而這件事我認為誰執政誰就有責任如果要更有責任負起責任的話短期我們這樣的一個撥補的辦法是可以解決燃眉之急但是長期負責任的執政黨應該還是要提出永續的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1858.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1867.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
老保年金的改革方案才是正辦 以上謝謝謝謝王育民委員說明接下來請蘇清泉委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1881.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1906.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好 謝謝主席那我今天提的有兩個案第一個是勞工保險條例第63條那主要的重點是未婚勞工單身懲罰條款如果這個勞工身後沒有任何符合規定的遺囑然後沒有領完整的給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1908.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1928.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
文件paper walker沒有做好的話形同放棄甚至會被外界逼成為充公而且這個事情還不少所以同樣是社會保險的公教人員保險法沒有這個限制所以今天這個63條主要的重點是刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1929.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1946.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
受其撫養的限制我們這個是一定要把這個拿掉那第二個就是增訂遺族的指定權就是他可以在遺族上面來設立這個是今天的重點因為很多人提所以不再贅述 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1947.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1967.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
另外一個是就業服務法第24條我們把它納入就是15歲到29歲的青年我們要確保他的權益甚至老保要給他加入因為青少年的失業率是蠻高的15到24歲青年的失業率占整體是比整體失業率的2.51倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1969.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1985.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以這個數字最近又攀升到3倍多所以這個就業福法第24條是我們修訂的重點以上謝謝蘇清泉委員說明接下來請林倩琦委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1996.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2016.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
謝謝主席感謝主席還有這個府院同仁今天我們在這邊有機會來討論也希望能夠大家的條文都有機會有一個很好的這個結果所以今天本席針對勞工保險條例第59條第二項做出了一個修正的草案那在這邊的說明以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2018.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2043.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我國在許多的縣市目前已經邁入了超高齡社會全國65歲以上的人口比例已經接近20%但是現行的制度仍規定勞工年滿60歲後繼續工作保險的年資僅能在計算5年也就是說65歲以後工作年資完全不列入勞保老年給付的一個計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2045.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2061.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那這個設計呢不符合現在的一個勞動現狀許多健康且有意願的長者仍然希望能夠繼續貢獻在職場那麼也透過這樣子來支撐家庭的經濟但現行的制度使他們多勞而沒有多保 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2062.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2080.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
不但無法增加退休的保障反而削弱他再就業的這個誘因那本次修法的建議60歲以上繼續工作的勞工每年可以累計一個月的老年給付不要受上限五年的一個限制這樣子調整可以有三個目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2081.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2096.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第一個是鼓勵高齡者持續參與勞動緩解勞動力的短缺第二個部分是讓65歲以上還在工作的職業勞工享有合理的保障第三是維持制度的財政穩健 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2097.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2123.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為現在一次領取勞保給付者是8%且比例逐年下降那麼對財政的影響極為有限那麼立法院在去年我們已經三讀通過勞動基準法第54條開放勞僱雙方來協商延後退休那本次修法正是與該政策來接軌讓勞保制度與高齡就業的政策同步來更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2123.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2139.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那這項修法是為了恢復公平而不是鼓勵延退喔而是保障繼續付出而且有能力付出的人那也在這邊懇請大家來支持本案讓長者多一份保障讓社會多一份力量以上 謝謝謝謝林千祺委員說明接下來請徐欣盈委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2157.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2184.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主席各位委員同仁各位官員大家好今天本席要針對勞工保險條例第66條以及第69條的修正草案進行提案說明大家知道勞保是我國最重要的社會安全網關係到超過千萬勞工的退休生計根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保破產危機延後到 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2187.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2210.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
2031年但是潛藏負債卻暴增到13.23兆元這代表著我們的政府只是在延後危機而不是解決問題更重要的是政府賴以延後危機的這個撥補在現行的法律中呢竟然無法源的依據讓千萬的勞工非常非常的焦慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2211.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2228.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
因此我们第一个重点就是修正第66条将政府的拨补纳入基金来源正式做到拨补法治化这是政府应尽的责任必须有法律依据稳定裁员第二个重点我们要特别说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2229.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2250.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
國民年金法和公務人員退休資遣撫恤法都有明定政府要負最後支付以及保證的責任這是國家的承諾然而保障人數最多的勞工保險條例卻獨獨少了這一條這對千萬的勞工極不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2251.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2266.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因此我们也主张修正第69条明确增订劳工保险之财务由中央政府负最后支付责任我们要给予全国劳工同等的法律保障国家不能倒劳保当然也不能倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2268.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2294.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
本次修法旨在先做兩件最基本最緊急的事第一個讓政府撥補合法化第二個讓政府承諾法治化這是未來改革為了未來改革鋪路更是安定千萬勞工家庭的定心丸我懇請各位同仁共同支持謝謝謝謝徐欣盈委員說明接下來請陳昭資委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2299.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2304.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
代表民眾黨團請圖權級委員說明好謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2327.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2355.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
首先感谢我们廖伟祥召委今天排审我们就业服务法等草案本席在此做提案说明鉴于民国112年年底我国新住民的总数也已超越原住民多达592561人当年可说是新住民元年而更早于民国97年劳动部制定促进新住民就业补助要点 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2356.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2372.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
可見勞動主管機關認定我國新住民卻為因協助之特定對象及就業弱勢族群但根據內政部在107年新住民生活需求調查僅2.5%之新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2376.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2397.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
透过公立就业服务机构进行求职同时却高达17.7%的新住民朋友曾遭遇求职困难显见我们工部门对于新住民就业促进及就业服务难为积极主动尚有大幅改进的空间 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2398.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2415.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
雖然去年113年朝野的共同努力之下新住民基本法也已三讀通過但是唯獨推動有關新住民就學 就業 培力關懷協助及多元服務等事宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2417.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2443.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個新住民發展署遲遲未能正式成立因此在現階段新住民的促進就業政策及措施仍有賴勞動部積極推展原此本席與游浩委員 麥玉珍委員鄭振前委員等17人提出《就業服務法》第24條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2444.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2471.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
增定新住民於就業法母法之中為特定促進就業對象要求主管機關針對新住民之自願就業人員應訂定計畫並致力促進其就業協助排除就業障礙提升新住民勞動參與力以彰顯國家對新住民之重視以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2474.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2479.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
謝謝圖權級委員說明接下來請陳昭資委員代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2484.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2507.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
主席各位同事根據近年來的統計新住民的勞參率逐年提升他們在服務業在製造業餐飲業等基層或是關鍵職位上做出了很多的付出已經成為台灣的主要的勞動力來源之一但我們的法律卻沒有給他們足夠的保障無法確保新住民的就業權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2508.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2525.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那一直以來本黨的麥一尊委員不斷地為新住民的權益奔走要求政府能夠正視新住民的需求在台灣新住民家庭超過百萬他們不是少數那卻因為制度的缺口缺漏而被排除在許多權益之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2526.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2554.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以终于在麦玉珍委的努力下在2024年7月通过了台湾第一步的新住民基本法确立了新住民的基本权益那现在我们不断的呼吁内政部要尽快履行法律义务加速新住民发展署的成立那台湾民众也会继续为新住民的权益来发声不让他们权益在制度中消失那我们本党的版本当中将新住民明确增列为就业扶法第24条中主管机关必须定定 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2555.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2579.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
就業促進計畫的對象之一目的是希望未來主管機關能夠定期檢討促進就業計畫的成效跟結果並且提供相關的協助跟支持這不是特殊待遇因為這是讓制度更完善而更反映出台灣真實的社會需求新住民是台灣社會的一個分子保障他們的就業權益就是保障台灣整個未來的競爭力謝謝 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2582.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2585.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝陳昭資委員說明接下來請洪部長就討論事項進行說明時間十分鐘主席各位委員包括各位記者朋友那 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2611.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2618.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我想我們就先就這個勞保條例的修正那先向各位說報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2620.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2647.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那感謝各位委員會邀請本人針對委員所提之勞保條例相關修正草案總計30案進行報告那以下就各位委員所提的修正草案來說明本部的意見那敬請各位委員給予指教那首先針對多數委員關心第66條及69條條文部分那確保勞工退休保障是勞動部的重大勞動政策而且責無旁貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2648.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2675.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
也因此本部也将会持续争取编列预算拨补劳工保险基金那在政策立场上就是由政府来负最终支付责任那针对各委员所提出第66条及69条的修正草案那本部对于大院之相关的审查将会在政府最终将会在政府负最最后支付责任的政策立场上秉持开放的态度共同讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2676.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2702.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那希望有助于大院之审议那针对委员所提第6条第19条第30条第31条第58条第59条第63条那有关保险给付请求权的时效延长删除生育给付加加保日数的限制那增订原住民身障者的提前请领老年给付删除孙子女及兄弟姐妹请领遗属津贴或年金 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2704 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2728.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
包括需受被保险人抚养的条件领取老年给付后得变更给付方式等提案因涉及到制度的稳定和公平性那加重劳保财务负担等问题那考量各界对劳保财务的问题非常关注任何增加劳保财务的提案我们都认为需要再更审慎那相关的意见请委员见我们的书面报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2729.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2738.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那最后有关第29条67条增订贷款者的开立专户及贷款不得作为强制执行标的的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2739.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2766.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
劳保纾困贷款是为纾解劳工短期性的经济困难委员所提29条办理贷款得开立专户不得作为抵消扣押等标的可落实贷款目的本部竞表支持另外第69条所提贷款不得作为强制执行标的与上开目的相同但因贷款者没有设立专户个人账户中的存款来源多元可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2768.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2794.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
是自身的存款薪资等当贷款的款项入账后将无法分辨该笔款项为贷款本金故仍可能遭到强制执行因此建议于29条增列贷款者得办理贷款专户供存入贷款本金使用以立明确保障做法及完备法治体力以上报告是针对这个劳保条例相关的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2794.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2819.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那再来也跟大家再报告针对救福法第24条26-2728条修正草案那现行第24条规定独立负担加记者中高龄者等9款人员及第10款其他经中央主管机关认为有必要者为政府因智力处促进就业之对象 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2820.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2846.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那现行本部已经公告15岁以上未满18岁未就学未就业少年还有职业灾害失能劳工以及直辖县市政府列册辅导之皆有为前接第10款的人员近期因新住民基本法的意旨也已核定一定范围之新住民以及现或曾与在台湾设计设有户籍之国民结婚经需 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2847.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2870.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
金许可居留及规划涉及至外国人大陆港澳地区人民为第十款锁定人员将配合行政院发布新住民基本法实施日期同步公告实施对本次会议委员提案首先有关15至29岁青年青年或18岁至35岁青年纳入24条特定对象一节 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2871.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2891.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那青年是国家重要的劳动力雇主亦有雇佣的意愿他们的事业并非没有工作机会而主要是在于经验不足或职业方向不清面试技巧不够至初次求职遭遇困难或找不到合适的工作为协助青年就业本部已经整合部会的资源 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2892.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2919.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
因應各年齡階段的需求於在學臨校期間提供職壓輔導職業訓練等就業資源引導青年投入重點產業包含推動大專青年育聘計畫鼓勵重點產業提供技術職缺育聘青年進行工作崗位訓練也推動初次尋職青年穩定就業津貼計畫協助初次尋職及非典型就業青年積極尋職及穩定就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2921.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2944.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那若將整體的青年納入特定對象恐會與其他特定對象包括中高齡身心障礙者等等成為就業機會的排擠我們建議可以審慎再做一些評估其次有關提案增列新住民為24條特定對象一節考量與國人結婚而移居我國的新住民為國人共同才共居之親屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2946.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2962.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
他們的就業需要克服語言文化差異及職場適應的問題不應是否取得國籍而有別那本部現行促進新住民就業補助作業要點已經明訂新住民比照特定對象適用相關的補助措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2962.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2979.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
并核定与国人结婚移居来台之新住民涵涉及前或后都是第十款的对象将配合行政院发布新住民基本法实施日期公同步公告实施所以本部建议文字修正为一定范围之新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2980.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2999.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那王宇明等委員提案第27條增列新住民適應工作環境及適應訓練第28條推介新住民就業協助其工作適應之提案本部竟表尊重那最後對於委員提案將金門馬祖澎湖地區納入特定對象一節 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3000.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3026.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
考量24條是以身份類別或就業弱勢屬性來認定113年調查金門連江澎湖人口失業率均非屬高失業狀態現行轄內已經有公立就業服務機構提供服務個別就業弱勢如有符合第24條第1項所列的各款身份也可以運用各項就業促進措施基於自願橫評的考量我們也建議應該要審慎評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3028.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3055.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
至於提案將金門馬祖澎湖地區納入第27條適用工作適應訓練之對象考量本條是強化身心障礙或原住民的職場適應但金門馬祖澎湖地區的居民是否有此需要也需要再做審慎的評估那本部會持續強化就業服務以及職業訓練相關的措施來協助國人順利就業以上報告進行指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3061.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3078.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝洪部長說明接下來有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3080.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3109.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員林月琴委員發言主席麻煩我們有請洪部長請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3116.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3143.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
林委員好 部長早我這次修就業服務法的第24條就是要把未成年人正式拉出來明明白白的列為就業促進對象的其中一款這題我們從上個會議就談到現在我過去還在民間的時候就講過雖然第10款其他對象本來就是要徵補立法所尚未窮盡到 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3144.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3174.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
到的一個新的需求對族群可是未成年人的就業需求不能夠用局限在定義在被塞在其他對象裡面過去你們用韓式公告把15歲到18歲未升學未就業的少年塞到其他對象可是這個不夠為什麼先沒有辦法涵蓋到自立生活逆境少年司法少年甚至弱勢家庭那中低收入戶的家庭裡面他們必須要靠 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3174.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3198.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
打工來度日然後又想要脫困的孩子所以我講過很多次這群孩子事實上是兒童權利公約點名要國家優先保護的對象不是你的備助人所以請問部長現行的衛生學為就業的定義根本就完全無法涵蓋真正有就業需求的弱勢境遇的少年你認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3200.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3217.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
委員其實一直很關心這些其實特殊的處遇也是高風險的少年那我想確實因為在我們舊法第24條主要在第一項在處理的主要是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3218.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3237.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
就業的弱勢所以我們可以來評估一下那現在委員在提的這些比較高風險的包括司法少年 副寫少年 脆弱家庭等等他們在就業上面的狀況那當然如果這個符合大家認知的這個就業弱勢的狀況當然我覺得我們可以來評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3239.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3265.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
部長因為在法規上我們當然沒有辦法窮盡把它寫到這麼完整說智利少年怕掛一肉萬的狀態所以還是一直到位依照兒權公約的精神直接甄列未成年最清楚最合適那未成年各種更複雜的就業需求跟勞動權益都能夠被看見這是我的版本裡面特別去提的為什麼要這樣提呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3265.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3282.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
部長在就業扶法我新增了26條之一要到要對15到24歲的青少年依聯合國的標準給予特別的支持你看近三年的因加保未加保的職災的給付資料竟然有未滿15歲在營建工地 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3283.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3307.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
申請職災給付這根本不能工作的孩子的年齡竟然在工地上出事還有製造業工地的失能甚至還有兩例的死亡發生在這麼年輕的孩子的身上真的讓人家覺得心痛部長 這些只是被看見的那些沒有通報的到底有多少甚至他們就沒有來申報那你認為這底下到底還有多少黑數你怎麼看 你打算怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3311.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3340.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
跟委員報告現在的資料裡面我們從那個那個災保那邊的數字確實都有掌握一些目前不管是我們這個未滿18歲的兒少他們在不管在工作場所裡面的一些失能或傷害甚至剛剛委員提到的這些死亡人數那其實這幾年我們也是這部分加強在做一些勞檢跟宣導那他現在的牽能率也是逐年在下降當中我們會持續來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3341.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3365.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為我認為靠勞檢補破網根本就是來不及如果是少年真的他有急迫性的經濟需求年紀越少越小的話何妨職場都不收所以他就會往高風險的工作流動所以部長我問的非常簡單一句話願不願意支持把青少年完整的就業權益保障那個措施跟職癌的協助寫進救福法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3366.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3386.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
跟文說明因為剛剛如果剛剛委員上面寫如果是未成年人如果是未成年這四個字的話那涵蓋範圍非常廣甚至可能會被認為可是你沒有辦法把它單一的去寫更多對所以我的意思說因為如果是未成年人的話那可能比方說六歲的兒童也是未成年人 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3387.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3403.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
是可是你的另外一個法律本來也就是16到18才可以去工作對所以我的意思是說我覺得大家可以來研商一下關於這個條文的這個文字的處理那怎麼樣可以比較精準的捕捉 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3405.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3424.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
委員長指涉的這一群這一群對象我覺得這群真的很需要但也不至於擴到太大因為如果當然寫未成年可能外界也會那6歲也是那這個8歲也是那這可能就不是委員的本意這樣子所以我覺得在條文的文字上面我們怎麼處理到比較精準的可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3425.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3436.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
捕捉落定到可能是現在大家比較擔心的這些就業的弱勢 我覺得我們可以從這部分來延伸到時候在主條審查的時候我想部長應該我們現在有一些公視應該要對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3438.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3464.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這一群真的已經在職場當中工作也是合法的16到18的這些未成年應該要給一些協助但我想我們可以再討論一下文字怎麼樣落比較合適然後不會有範圍擴大或者是會有涵蓋不足的問題謝謝部長部長問的社工保的是勞保適用所有勞動法規這點毫無疑問我也知道多數社福機構很努力照顧社工可現實就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3465.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3491.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
還是有固定的比例的社工在欠薪 拖薪變相減薪的狀態旨在不是只有被打被咬還有爆發心理創傷社安網出事就怪社工的輿論的獵巫高案量的壓力衛福部三年前的一個統計就是說5824名的社安網的社工有1188名遭受到口頭的辱罵 威脅肢體暴力等不當對待比例高達兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3492.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3509.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
其中光是口頭入罵就佔了六成以上更別說一定還有一些黑數部長我就直接問勞動部如何認知到什麼是高風險職場那麼有社工有10到20%的機率被罵被威脅甚至被打這算安全的職場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3512.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3530.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
當然其實就像委員說的其實社工是一個社會上非常非常重要的助人的職業尤其是在一些高風險的情境裡面有時候看到社工也會面對到一些人身上的安全所以我覺得他應該也是要大家優先保護的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3531.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3560.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那至於社工的高風險的情境的問題我覺得我們是很願意來跟衛福部一起來討論跟合作因為其實衛福部會對於社工的類別跟風險的情境會比我們更加的熟悉所以我想我們是很願意來跟衛福部來討論說哪些比較重點的風險的情境那我們也會請我們治安署來跟衛福部來討論是不是要重點來促使大家把法尊做得更落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3561.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3585.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
部長 我很高興聽到你講這句話我自己當了幾十年的社工我過去同時也是機構的主管我一定是站在這群助人工作者這邊來問你那如果你跟他講說未來你們要去做這樣的話那我們還是很希望你能跟貴府部去討論到針對於社工的勞動權益跟職業安全這一塊實際在推動的方案到底有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3586.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3600.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
還有哪些固定協調的機制真的要去做另外一個就是依這次新修的職安法跟相關法規實務上到底要怎麼用在社工我想先問部長政府內部的契約社工勞動身份最模糊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3600.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3624.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
不像正式公務員 都是保勞保但是又背著公務體系責任在公部門裡邊的契約社工約聘 約僱 約用 值待依循著不同辦法來禁用部長 他們遇到職場霸凌的時候要走什麼申訴管道因為我最近辦公室接到好幾期那責任制 加班權益都沒有辦法解決的時候勞動部又應該認為要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3626.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3650.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
委員剛才講的這兩件事情 一個事情是如果遇到霸凌那當然公募門系統下面的社工這個越過人的話在我們現在的規範裡面基本上還是適用治安法來處理那剛剛在講到說另外是責任制公使的問題這當然會有另外其他在勞基法相關的法規來處理包含加班嗎 甚至有時候他們權益沒辦法的時候那到底要怎麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3651.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3663.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
一樣用職安法嗎不是加班的問題就用勞基法所以這是不同的霸凌是用職安法但是加班的那種工時的問題他就是用勞基法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3665.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3681.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
請部長會後一週內是不是告訴我們這兩年實際處理的案件以及要讓公部門約聘僱的社工知道他們自己如何保障他自己的權益可以嗎我想如果社工問到勞動相關的權益一樣應該都是可以跟地方政府勞政主管機關來做申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3682.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3701.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那申訴管道我想應該是暢通的那我們會來督導地方政府應該要積極的來處理相關的案件那再麻煩部長最後一個就是部長多數社福機構都不是惡意剝削可是卡在制度跟資源當中而社工常常連過勞心理創傷算不算紙災自己都不敢確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3701.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3716.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
所以很少主動爭取所以我就問四個比較具體的問題第一個現在部分縣市已經在做社福機構的法尊法事部長你知道成效如何嗎中央有沒有主動了解能不能由勞動部來提升量能來統籌推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3719.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3734.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
跟委員報告其實現在我們除了勞動條件檢查以外這個法遵法施的量也一直在提升那這近三年的話那像剛剛提到的這個社會福利機構我們大概法遵法施大概到五千場次 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3734.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3763.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我覺得甚至可不可以就為什麼不能用中央來推因為勞動部對中小企業說可以提供客製化的法尊訪視那社福機構沒有道理不能部長你願不願意跟衛福部一起規劃納入專屬社福機構的法尊訪視內容然後有沒有這部分不知道有沒有問題根文報告當然我覺得我們是很樂意跟衛福部來討論就是對於社福機構的那另外一方面其實因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3764.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3793.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
也有蠻多個非常有行動力的社工的工會那我們也覺得其實這幾年社工工會其實也提出很多很重要的權力上面的倡議然後也協助行政部門解決或提出我覺得也提出很多重要的問題所以我覺得我們在這些相關的工作上面我們很願意尤其是跟社工的工會一起來做合作那我相信其實可以把對於這些機構的法尊可以做得更到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3794.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3809.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我想謝謝部長因為我想不管是施工會或職業工會都非常關心這一群在現場工作那因為過去政府機關都會做行政指引可是這些指引都放在雲端製作成SOP放在抽屜裡面救不了精疲力竭 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3810.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3829.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
歷階的社工所以我們需要的是現場的法尊法事來雙向行政指導跟機構服務而且每年檢討分析出報告所以部長如果落實的話未來一年開一次會跟衛福部去做這樣的社福機構法尊法事的一個檢討這部分不知道能不能做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3830.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3851.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我覺得我們是可以的我真的覺得要把工會一起找進來我覺得把工會一起找進來討論其實我覺得可以反映一些更更具體的問題而且我們幫助我們真的處理的更更更落實更到位那感謝不過這一題比較複雜我想也請部長讓主責的單位跟我們辦公室約時間我們再來討論詳細的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3858.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3869.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
謝謝林月琴委員發言接下來請陳昭資委員委員發言謝謝主席麻煩洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3877.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3891.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
陳委員長 部長長 部長 勞保改革大概是政府無法迴避的責任那我們都清楚改革的方向大概就是一個多角少嶺這政府撥補三管齊下那我們今天排審的這個勞保條例就是要將政府撥補還有最終責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3893.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3907.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個責任的入法那三黨的立委都有共識都有提案那剛剛國情委員在做提案說明的時候也講到當年您也參加聯署了所以這個法案是三黨大家都有共識是非常在這一屆的國會非常的難得 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3908.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3925.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那雖然行政院一直沒有版本出來但部長您在這裡有講過說如果您保持開放態度如果立法院通過了這樣的法案你會就是依法履行但我必須要說今天的修法是勞保改革中其實是比較容易的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3926.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3952.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
因為勞保要永續不能只是靠撥補還需要這個開源節流那開源就是多角那節流就是這個少領啊但部長您自己講過說沒有要砍幾戶的計畫也就是說節流的部分您是把它保留了就是排除在改革的方案之外那我就請教部長那開源的部分呢勞動部有規劃要提高保費和投保薪資上限嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3955.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3973.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
跟文說明那其實對於勞保的財務的問題當然從政府的角度我們一直非常非常的關注這也是為什麼這幾年下來其實行政院不斷的願意從這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3975.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3994.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這個整體的公務預算的水庫裡面那來做這個撥補的動作你還是在留在撥補這個階段第二個是其實我們在我們在基金的投資上面我想這幾年的效益也是非常好的那這也都為我們整體基金的水位提供很重要的活水所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3994.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4021.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
OK 謝謝你我了解這個勞保改革不是說一個部會可以撐得起來因為大家都講提到數字了嘛攸關這個千萬勞工的生活保障的改革那其實是要請總統勇於承擔的為什麼呢因為藍綠白三位總統候選人他們在競選的時候都提出了要做勞保改革的國事論壇那當選後應該要做的那我想請問部長賴總統有要召開這個勞保改革的國事會議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4023.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4038.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
你曉得嗎我想其實對於他有要召開這個會議嗎我想的確現在對於整體勞保的財務上面的一些社會的討論我們都持續在收集所以剛剛在講到我應該講到說可能是要多繳或者是少領但這都會比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4039.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4054.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
你回答我意思說那總統上任到今天他有向勞動部提起說要召開相關的這個國事會議嗎因為這個在競選的時候三黨的候選人都總統的候選人都提出來了那他要沒有要這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4055.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4075.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們目前就是持續我們就是目前在持續在收集各界對勞保的意見就是說我還是要請您提醒總統任期過了一半一年半總統要趕快趕緊召開這個勞改國序會議因為否則勞保基金之前是2028年破產那今天有一些數字這也不清反正就是近年什麼2031這個會破產那這個對 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4081.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4101.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
賴總統想要這個尋求連任難道也不是一個危機嗎部長我要請教你我們修法讓80歲的長者面80量表就可以聘請外籍看護那勞動部當時說我們80歲以上的人口有91萬其中健康人口有53萬假設只有三成的健康者要提出申請也會產生16萬名的這個看護家庭看護的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4104.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4130.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那加上每年自然增加的一萬所以當時您估算的是有十幾萬可能是七萬左右的這個缺口那現在賴總統啊 當時那個部長您估的跟實際上差很大您估的一二十萬 當時講的好像天天要幫下去結果到現在好像八千多個申請您還才核准兩三千個那我要講的是賴總統現在就給你功課了他要開放十二歲以下一孩家庭申請幫傭 外籍幫傭 請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4132.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4144.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我國12歲以下一孩家庭全國大概有幾戶目前可能大概幾戶 數據在補我們數據在補 對所以總統講的你都沒有去算 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4145.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4166.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
但我們現在在評估中 可是目前那大概幾成 好 他先算母數我手邊大概也有啦請問勞動部估計大概有幾成就像你當時這樣估算80歲以上長者那你覺得符合這個一孩家庭的這樣的家庭家戶你認為有幾成的會申請會產生多少缺口呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4167.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4179.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
現在就是在評估中還在算 總統講完 你都這樣放的他回答很快來 部長 家庭康護工有22萬人家庭幫傭只有2000人 是100倍之差喔如果人數比較多的康護會缺工 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4183.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4203.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那稀少的邦誉不是更嚴重嗎這是更嚴重 但這就是賴總統的政策 他公開講了所以本席有個建議 等一下還是要請你補數字你不如先從真正有需要的家庭開放例如遲緩兒的家庭我國的遲緩兒通報數字不斷的上升每年大概有4萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4205.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4229.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那因為這些家庭的爸爸媽媽都需要多陪伴他帶他去找的他需要有人來讓他放手讓他去協助他的這個家務勞動那如果是以家庭為單位4萬人應該會比4萬還少所以如果總統真的要開放12歲一孩的家庭能夠申請外籍邦傭的話是否從這些類似這個吃緩兒家庭開始您贊同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4230.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4252.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
跟委員說明其實行政院也有指示那可能針對多元的家庭的狀況都希望可以納入評估有數字了嗎現在就在評估中但是我剛才說按照行政院的指示多元家庭的需求也應該放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4253.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4267.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
都沒有問過你們沒有數字在手上就承諾啦12歲一孩的家庭要不是這樣子的我們現在是在我們現在是在整體的評估之中但是你要接手啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4269.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4287.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
原來你們不知道我有數字我也先保留現在法律有規定部長這個職缺薪資沒有達4萬的時候不可以徵才的時候不可以寫免疫薪水不可以寫免疫但這幾年來整體薪水有成長所以去年勞動部有說今天要修法把這個4萬改成5萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4289.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4303.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
當然這有助於企業的競爭力跟這個爭取人才嘛但今年都快過了你有提出修法嗎還沒有吧還沒有提出來嘛跟委員說明我們現在一直持續在研議就是要把原本的4萬拉高到5萬或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4304.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4316.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
或者是用一個最低工資的倍數啦因為最低工資也一直在提高所以也有一些建議是說可以提高變成是一個最低工資的固定某個倍數那會隨著最低工資的調漲那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4320.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4338.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
薪資透明化的這個金額也可以提高因為有承諾說要提高5萬那你自己要什麼方法能夠符合實際的我們現在當然在做這些法案的研議那我想我們也希望盡快在一段時間研議我們會趕快提出來媒體的報告報道說薪資揭露的規定上路以來有受理440件的檢舉只開罰了55件開罰率很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4343.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4366.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以很多勞工都說這個中原歧視上面寫免疫結果面試時開的薪水卻低於4萬請問部長這個要如何舉證你要處理如何處理讓企業真的落實你既然有法啦我想如果企業在4萬如果目前企業在4萬以下寫免疫的話這當然就是違反了薪資透明化的這個做法那這個相關的市政其實來做檢舉應該就是會被開罰為什麼440件檢舉只有55件開罰呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4373.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4392.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們其實需要的是要提出具體的事證那目前我們的數字上面看起來你說的好那你又煩那你怎麼提出證是面試的時候要帶錄音機嗎不是面試帶錄音機可能是他相關的這個徵才的文件廣告或者是相關的欄位其實應該都會看到比方說他是怎麼樣來寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4394.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4423.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好部長我今天覺得有件事還是嚴重賴總統公開說他要開放全國12歲以下一孩家庭有一個孩子12歲以下就要開放這個外籍幫傭但是他不知道數字ok的日理萬機但是我沒有想到部長你接下來你有聽到你現在還沒有我們一直密切在評估之中你有數字你剛剛說因為我手邊現在沒有數字那你的部署都沒有數字嗎現在我們手邊沒有因為我們是在評估中對 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4425.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4437.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
現在我們在評估中 現在官方的數字是沒有啦官方數字沒有 但是各種研究 很多報告資料 部長因為很多研究有去做 學術研究200萬戶啦200萬戶啊 那你怎麼接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4441.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4469.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
但也並不是兩百萬並不是兩百萬戶都有這個需求確實有一些家庭有表達他有這樣的需求但也並不是所有的家庭都有這樣的需求八四量表你估得很離譜快將近二十萬結果現在你核准兩千多嘛那個時候就不許我們現在是三個月八四量表是三個月的時間其實現在有一萬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4471.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4493.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
三個月多出1萬如果按照這個數字的話一年是會有增加4萬那現在又多一個問題嘛就是說這個估算一年可能會增加4萬4萬都確實比過去的這個增加的數字來的多啊那請你再估算一下好好再評估總統發出對全國人民發出的承諾謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4508.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4512.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
謝謝主席 我想請洪川部長請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4517.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4543.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 部長我是很不想要用我的執行時間繼續跟你討論這個議題但我希望可以一舉把它解決因為上禮拜呢我質詢了有關於你會拖欠回復立委公文這件事結果問完之後沒關係我知道你要講什麼我問完之後呢好多不分黨派喔不同委員會的委員喔紛紛都跑來跟我說他們也遇到這樣子的議題好 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4545.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4563.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我知道你今天早上已經給我一些部分的公文裡面有很多數據複製缺乳啦比如說這個是華家沙風災後臨時工的收案狀況你拖了40天給我那目前你給我的報告不到一頁A4 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4564.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4590.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那裡面的內容跟我在質詢台上問你的幾乎是一樣的我不太知道為什麼這樣子的東西需要拖40天給我另外有一些質詢率的問題我很明確的問到我希望給予質詢率但是婦女在就業計畫只有給我113年中高齡退休在準備協助補助計畫沒有給然後55plus只有給113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4592.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4612.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
然後美國關稅供應鏈支持方案執行率沒有給很多都已經上路了只是再強化而已也沒有給出來我是想要幫其他的委員問因為很多委員就跑來問我說怎麼會你遇到這個問題我們也遇到了結果有些吹哨子就跑出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4613.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4634.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
他們說這些公文就壓在一個地方就是你的部長室就是你的部長室我詢問了一些以前跟你曾經做過同事的人大家都說你是一個非常認真負責的立法委員並且你也會追公文你也會跟部長追公文的我不知道為什麼你現在變成你以前口中很不喜歡的那樣子的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4635.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4655.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以很多委員在等我今天質詢這一頁我們希望徹底解決這個問題我們希望徹底解決問題你到底是有還是沒有親自授意部長室扣押或者是羈押要給立法院的公文有還是沒有你只要回答我們這句話就好了因為這個40天40天喔40天40天最後給出A4的當然沒有扣押你沒有扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4661.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4683.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
跟委員說明像委員其實要的這幾份資料我上禮拜其實已經說了我會請我們的同仁到委員的辦公室也親自跟委員說明其實相關的資訊我會啊我會但是如果你可以來說明數據你為什麼不能把數據附在你回覆的公文裡面呢如果你都可以口頭說明了放到你的書面回覆裡面不是很好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4685.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4693.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
根文說明第一個沒有什麼扣押沒有什麼扣押的問題那能夠提供的數據當然我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4694.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4721.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我們可以來看一下我們的這個工作的流程可以怎麼樣子來加速我想這部分我們可以來看一下我覺得你可能需要加速因為我是遇到不分黨派的人他們都說你跟以前的部長不一樣以前的部長很快就回復了不知道為什麼你的總是要拖這麼久那第二個具體的請求也希望你在這邊承諾我們當然這個是我們去問了吹哨者告訴我們所有這樣子的現象那你可不可以在這邊也承諾說 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4722.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4739.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
不要去徹查是不是有人可能透露這些公文都留在你的部長室你不要徹查好嗎因為勞動部已經變成了霸凌的一個壞榜樣之前這些新聞事件我們不希望這個事件又發生一次可以嗎你可以在這裡承諾嗎委員沒有這件事情當然不會有什麼徹查的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4744.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4769.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
沒關係我們當然不會再看我們希望不會有任何人接到你去關心的這個資訊你絕對可以放心再來賴總統任內每個勞動部部長都說要當全民的部長要當勞工的靠山但是在賴總統的任內目前有兩個靠山已經倒了我們希望你是第三座靠山 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4770.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4795.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
可以撐住那這個是11月14號勞動部公布了2024年國際勞動統計當然他們是綜合ILO OECD國家各國的勞動統計年刊勞動指標等等的這個你應該也知道台灣的總工時又多出來了名次從世界第六又攀升到世界第五這不是什麼值得光彩的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4796.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4818.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
本席也非常的擔心 尤其是電子零組件最操勞他每年的工時到達2258.4小時好 我看了一下您過去的質詢其實你也蠻關心這樣子的議題的這是今年3月啊勞團才痛批勞動部部長 以前是他們的夥伴但是現在很多事情都不回應當時他們給出來的數據是我國總工時2023年高達2020小時喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4825.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4848.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
現在你自己發布的新數據又多出10個小時變成2030小時請問你可不可以簡短的講一講為什麼會這樣子然後你要做什麼跟委員說明其實我想要先釐清幾個因為的確我認為台灣的工時是有改善的空間但是並不是世界第五其實這是對於發布的資料有點誤讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4849.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4857.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因為他並不是所有200多個國家裡面等一下我們先不用去爭辯名次我們先不用爭辯名次我把它補回去來來來我們先看一下我們先不用爭辯名次我們去比2023年也就是今年老團對你進行抗議的時候他們用的數據是2020小時那現在你自己新發布的是2030小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4874.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4897.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們如果姑且不論名次的話你針對這個工時不斷的增加你有沒有什麼具體的大策略的改善方案跟委員說明第一個確實在去年的總工時的部分其實數字上面的確是有提高那當然有一個很重要的原因就像剛剛委員說的電子零組件當然這跟整個國際上面在電子零組件上面的景氣有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4898.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4927.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那因为他的出口的需求然后经济状况好所以他也把这个整个工时往上点那我们也是意识到这件事情所以对劳动部来说我们这这么多年来持续的一直在希望提高最低工资那提高最低工资一个很重要的部分就是希望更多的劳工不要因为他的收入过低所以他必须要很依赖加班所以这也是为什么我们希望一直提高最低工资而且这是连续做了十年很重要的原因这是第一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4928.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4956.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
第二個我們當然也很希望就是僱主跟工會可以強化就是比方說跟工會的這個團體協約高於法尊的團體協約可以去約定一些更有利於員工生活平衡的工時那這部分我們一直在鼓勵好因為他們說如果沒有提出相關的政策的話可能不排除再次發動抗爭那我這邊也跟你檢討一些數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4959.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4983.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個是我們擔心的地方啦我們也希望中高齡者勞參率可以升加嘛這樣可以分攤一些我們國家的勞動力因為他們也有他們的智慧但是我把比較重要的地方圈起來了我們可以看到女性是55歲以後就雪崩式的往下掉男性則是60歲以後就往下掉代表什麼 代表我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4983.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5010.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
台灣的退休年齡低於世界其他的國家包括日本 韓國 新加坡等等65歲以上的勞參率不到10%但是這一波退休潮還沒結束這個也是你應該都熟能詳的現在正是四五年級陸續到了65歲法定退休年齡那再來我們估計六年級也逐漸的邁入中高齡所以16年後會有一波很大的退休潮 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5010.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5025.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
預估是667萬人陸續超過法定的退休年齡那你看下面這個圖也非常的清楚我們65歲以上勞參率就不好那我們接下來看著你的這三項的執行率齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5026.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5031.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們看婦女在就業計畫25%中高齡退休在就業計畫1.833.625.6以及這個55plus54.9我想知道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5042.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5059.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
你是不是因為現在我們就是不分男女其實都不夠高了嘛我們都希望他們多多參與你有沒有考慮未來把這幾項計畫合在一起然後直接的拉高補助否則你的這個執行率always是慘不忍睹啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5059.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5078.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
跟委員說明第一個其實我已經請我們發案署針對這些執行率而且計劃的整併希望能夠做一個更大的檢討我說這個檢討裡面包括幾件事情因為的確在我們很多的就業計劃裡面其實過去是長年的一支一支的累積有的時候計劃跟計劃之間會有些重複 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5081.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5107.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那这个重复的状况也会影响到执行率因为其实会有一些劳工他可能他知道一支计划但他不知道另外一支计划但也许他的身份是可以申请很多计划所以我们也在请文发案署把这些计划如果需要的话做相关的整并做整合型的计划这就是我刚刚建议你的这个整合型的计划如果做的时候他其实一次他可以知道有各种不同的资讯而不是他看到一支计划才去参与一个计划那其实对他来说也是一个负担所以这件事情我们现在也是在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5107.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5118.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
但如果委員剛才在說的跟中高齡勞工有關的事情的話我請我們發展署來說明一下這幾年中高齡在我們修了這個中高齡的專法之後那目前其實增加成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5122.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5145.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
因為我有跟你要114年現在都11月了你後來回覆報告裡面並沒有給我執行率你沒有給我執行率你有給我113年所以我真的想知道你114年做的怎麼樣114年現在還在啊已經到11月了我們可以到會議室你也可以告訴我是不是有變好嗎對不對可以啊當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5146.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5159.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是有變好大概多少我再把相關的數據我們再請那你的做法是什麼我可以請您的同仁回答沒關係您的做法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5162.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5184.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
目前在中高齡的部分我們預計要擴大55歲以上相關在職場支持以及退休後再就業準備以及55歲以上就業獎勵措施擴大補助範圍的運用可應用來增加提升方案的執行率好 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5186.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5213.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
剛剛部長你還缺我很多數據那我也希望說同仁可以盡快來我們就面對面的做一個presentation跟討論以及一起研擬怎麼樣可以提高質詢率我覺得OK好不好但是以後希望我剛剛第一頁所提到的狀況也不要再發生了跟我說明這絕對沒有什麼押公文這件事情或押資料都沒有這些事情那所以也不絕對不會有什麼你說會去查什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5216.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5224.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
報料者的問題 這是絕對不會有這樣的事情你現在有具體承諾 我們也比較安心這樣我們才可以保護告訴我們這些資訊的人 謝謝部長你可以完全的放心謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請盧憲伊委員發言就是有請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5251.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5263.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
因為針對我們原住民的問題提出三個問題就是說我們我想問的態度就是目前我們想要修正原住民老年給付到修正到55歲我想說聽聽你的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5266.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5291.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
跟文說明那其實對於這個原住民族下降到55歲的這個議題其實當然我們現在其實在評估跟研議中那我想細節我請文保演師來那我還是希望你心裡面有一些那個就是至少有一些Hint因為我們原住民大概都是在煮鷹架 搬水泥 綁乾淨 丁綁抹這些我們的原住民工人 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5292.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5314.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我覺得說你繼續想像他們在65歲的時候還是還可以做到這方面的一個勞力的工作嗎因為大部分文明罪名的比例是46%是從事這些重工業或者是這些勞力耗損的一些職業所以你們要把這樣事實考量進去所以我們希望說能夠修到55歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5317.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5342.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
跟委員報告我們跟原民會跟相關社會保險主管機關都有討論過這個議題我們認為原民的相關的保障包括就業促進或者是社福的津貼所以又因為國際趨勢所以目前就是說目前的態度上面還是沒有辦法修正到55歲因為我們本來就有減額年金他本來就可以提前領 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5343.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5372.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因为那是一次退没有减额年金是可以没有关系我们还是希望说不要是齐头式的平等希望能够实际的看看他们的劳动的劣势来考量到55岁的这个一个基准点第二个问题就是我希望当然我们大家都提到劳保追踪支付责任这个部分不过很像大部分都没有提到劳保财务敏感度的评估我们就针对66跟69条这个修正的部分那我希望说 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5373.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5401.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
能夠看看能不能就行業別年資斷裂還有投保急劇的這個財務試算或者說有沒有族群別勞動壽命或是私人風險這種財務敏感度的分析因為如果你不是做這樣的話你沒有辦法去看看哪些人是比較容易年資中斷哪些人的投保急劇長期偏低哪些人真的是活不到65歲所以如果你沒有做這些敏感度分析的話你就看不到這些差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5402.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5427.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以我希望因為你們勞保或者是健保這邊都有詳細的這些各年齡別或者是投保薪資這些資料如果你們真正願意做的話應該是可以把這些我們所謂勞保財務敏感度的評估可以把它做出來跟委員報告各個就是我國人口的平均移民或原民的平均移民其實我們內政部都有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5428.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5448.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
對那有關勞保的有工作就參加勞保沒有工作就參加國保所以在勞保的這一塊大家都是一體來適用那我們也有在勞保條例58條有規定如果工作是堅強體力的工作的話他也可以提早來領老年給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5448.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5467.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
沒有錯可是我的意思說希望能夠勞動部這邊的可以啟動做這些我們剛才講的勞務財務敏感度的評估也就是說你從你的年資斷裂投保集聚這些來做財務的試算那希望因為目前沒有看到這些資料所以我希望勞動部可以做一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5469.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5489.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
啟動了這樣一個機制讓這些長期在比如說容易年資斷裂或者是說他沒有辦法我們就像我們的平均沒有辦法到達65歲了沒有辦法真正請領到這些他所付出的所以這些部分因為你都沒有去做過試算所以我們就看不到所謂的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5492.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5507.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
是 各位報告 其實原民在55歲到64歲中間他們也可以領原住民給付那連結到65歲他可以領這個部分可能我們再找時間到報告室討論因為我覺得我們遇到很多實際的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5508.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5532.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
最後一點點時間 我想說之前我有提到就是單身的權益還有就是彝族年金這個部分因為我們目前看到的就是如果你是單身過世後彝族年金形同被充公對勞工顯然是不公平所以我想說能不能按照公教保險法落實勞工的自主意志讓他們可以指定受益人我想知道我們部長的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5534.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5549.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
跟文說明其實因為勞保的這個性質尤其是遺屬年輕的性質其實其實不太一樣我想請這個因為時間的關係我想說公交保險這裡面其實有做視線那我請我們市長來說明一下因為這個條文跟視線之間的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5556.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5575.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
是跟委員報告就是老保的給付他是一個保險給付他跟一般私人的財產不一樣那跟到大法官會議釋字第549號解釋就認為移屬津貼他的性質是所得的替代所以他是要保障移屬生活無虞所以他必須是受被保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5577.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5592.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
生前來撫養為條件他不是遺產 既然不是遺產他就不可以生前來指定那所以有關的受益人的這個順序啦或者是條件標準等等保險就是勞保條例裡面都有一個範定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5592.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5615.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
沒關係我們辦公室可能會提出一個修正的法案因為我想還是提醒部長我們原住民目前未婚比例大概39.88也就是四成沒有結婚所以可是未婚並不代表他們沒有家庭部落為例我們原住民的家庭跟一般漢人家庭不太一樣我們大概都是兄弟姊妹表兄弟姊妹這些都是關係是非常緊密的會看到姊姊公養弟弟子女照顧阿姨 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5616.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5640.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
然后母舅的关系是反而在这个家庭里面的那个关系是他的权利是很大的所以我们现在所看到是照顾啊付出啊结果现行的保险制度里面被视为不存在所以只是用一个就是说比不上制度认定的那个受抚养这三个字所以我觉得最不合理就是劳工一辈子缴的保费他应该领的这些年金呢竟然 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5640.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5660.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
不是他真正照顧他的人領走而是被國家 被以制度缺口這樣方式收回去你不覺得這樣對真正在照顧的人的公平性或者說那個保障完全都沒有嗎跟委員說明因為其實勞保本身就是社會保險社會保險裡面本來就會有世代互助的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5662.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5682.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那剛剛其實市長我們遇到一個在這個議題上面最大的一個癥結點是在於因為大法官的549號的解釋在大法官的解釋裡面其實已經說明的很清楚他其實是所得的替代他並不是遺產那因為是所得的替代所以他就不是像遺產可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5684.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5713.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
任意的來指定指定就有點像是變成是好像是這個被保險的遺產他可以指定那如果他身後他要指定給誰就不是這個性質所以主要主要的問題是發生在這個市縣的這個這個這個549號這裡面所以這並不是我們想怎麼修或者是我們今天想要怎麼解釋就能解釋我是希望說因為勞保是強制性的社會保險他保障應該比公教更強而不是更弱我們從這個方向來努力好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5715.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5741.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我們怎麼修端還是不能夠去違逆憲法法庭他的相關的解釋我們再提修正這個是比較大的問題是在這個地方那能不能看看我們再提出修法然後看看能不能獲得多數委員的同意或是支持再請部長給指教但是重點是憲法法庭的解釋啊這個是私自的解釋我不可能去行政部門我不可能去違逆事件的結果啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5755.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5760.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝部長謝謝我們接續請王玉敏委員質詢謝謝主席我們有請我們洪部長部長請另外那個主計處專門委員也請 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5777.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5794.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
部長我們今天討論的這個議題其實是很關鍵千萬勞工都在看就是說勞保基金面臨破產的問題這個是大家都知道的事情從2017年開始它的收支就呈現了不平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5794.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5812.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那在這樣的情況底下目前民進黨執政9年採取的都是撥補的措施沒有進行任何的改革那也就是這樣子今天才會有這麼多的委員希望既然現在短期採取撥補那不能說今天想要撥100億就100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5813.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5839.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
明年200億就是說很任意性的沒有一個固定的撥補的金額或是一定程度以上撥補的金額勞工不會安心所以今天才會有委員的版本其實也提出就是至少千億這樣的一個規模那首先我就要問部長你對於這個撥補你的立場是支持還是反對你說開放開放到底是支持還是反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5840.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5864.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
撥補是我們現在持續在做的所以入法你是支持的撥補兩個字入法我想這個撥補的法制化我們是同意的但是你們反對就是限定金額主要是因為財政紀律財政紀律法裡面其實有明定你們現在其實坦白講也都千億規模啦有可能再更少嗎但是這不是少不少的問題是沒有辦法把固定金額入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5865.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5876.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
沒有辦法把固定金額入法那如果沒有辦法固定金額入法你要勞工怎麼相信就是我們的政府一定撥補的額度會讓他們不會憂慮短期之間沒有領不到錢的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5881.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5907.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
其實我們這幾年從去年是撥補了1300億那今年其實今年公務預算是1200那接下來也包括特別預算裡面有100億所以這其實都目前都朝向超過1000億以上的金額在撥補那我們當然我們會是財政的狀況我想我們會極力的爭取未來不要低於這個金額那甚至我也希望能夠高於這個金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5908.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5911.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以你能保證未來的撥補的金額不會低於1300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5914.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5938.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
委員這不是保證的問題但我們會盡力的爭取而這幾年我們其實用實際的行動來去對呀 部長如果部長如果你沒有辦法掛保證然後呢這個入法又不肯洩明勞工就會不安心啊委員其實你可以你也可以保證啊沒有寫固定的數字你可以說你當部長的時候我保證一定爭取超過1300億爭取我當然都要盡力爭取爭取我絕對保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5941.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5966.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
可是因為實際的金額能夠有多少這還關乎到整個國家的財政關乎到組總的權責所以爭取 如果是爭取的話我當然一定爭取我一定保證爭取主席處你們今天的報告裡面你們是反對撥補的對不對基本上不是反對我沒有看到支持兩個字你的通篇報告裡面只有說這個下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5967.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5989.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
主計總數說要秉持裁員自給自足制度設計要雇主勞工政府三方共同負擔保費但你們沒有明確去回應今天的修法是支持或反對基本上我們其實是建議說在撥補之餘還是要考量整體的這個收支結構的調整要並同來考量以上為什麼為什麼是這樣的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5990.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6001.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
因為這個是社會保險他基本上制度上的設計就是要由本來的這個雇主還有這個勞工還有我們政府一起來共同面對這個財務責任因為你們知道再怎麼撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6004.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6023.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
就是也補不了對不對你看看這張圖事實上我必須坦白講我們的撥補只是一個短期讓勞工安心的措施這張圖表如果大家認真看未來50年勞保基金的收支表你可以看到他的支出是紅色的這條線 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6025.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6038.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這個將來的這個金額這個大家仔細認真看 將來這個金額都是突破上兆以上的這個金額那我們的收入都不會動 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6041.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6063.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個是引用你們的我們藍色的這條線保費的收入完全都不動現在大概都是4500億不會增加那中間的落差你就是要靠如果現在這個民進黨政府持續說撥補就是改革要靠撥補的話我跟各位講到123年的時候支出已經來到1兆500億 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6065.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6085.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個的逆差 收支的逆差會來到6000億部長 你應該好好看這個數字喔如果你不敢承諾1300億至少的撥補 事實上你來到123年 10年以後這個的逆差恐怕已經是 我不知道政府要花多少力氣129年的時候已經達到1兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6089.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6110.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
就是這樣的一個速度跟規模所以我也必須提醒大家撥補及時改革它是一個短期短期的效果長期的主計處講了大白話長期你如果整個保險制度你沒有做任何調整跟改革最終它就是這樣的效果政府有可能拿一兆以上的資金來撥補嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6111.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6134.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
跟委員說明所以我才說我們當然希望我們當然希望極力爭取撥補甚至也希望爭取撥補的金額能夠高於現在撥補的金額那第二個其實這幾年我們其實在基金的投資上面其實也有很大的斬獲這也讓我們現在整體的基金的水位現在其實到了1兆2超過1兆2了像今年可能也增加超過2000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6136.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6159.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那所謂除了撥補跟基金的投資其實都是在我們希望盡量去維持這個基金水位我覺得很明確而具體的做法那當然委員在講的提醒我覺得也很重要那不過的確今天在給付或者是在保費上面的調整這當然攸關更多的勞工的權益所以這部分當然我覺得可能會需要一個社會更大的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6159.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6174.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
但你有在思考這件事嗎有在研議這件事嗎還是波普及時改革從何佩珊講完之後這個就是政策其實也不用去思考未來更長期的改革各種的狀況跟情境我們當然都必須要思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6175.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6202.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
但是不同的做法也會在社會上面產生不同的意見我知道 執政其實必須就是要負責這一個問題我已經從許明春部長問到現在了許明春部長的時候他說有我們有一個小組請問那個小組還存在嗎他說那時候他還有一個小組他說我們還是持續在開會啊我們在研議那我問一下洪部長請問許明春時代的那一個針對勞保年金的改革的小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6204.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6222.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
還在嗎還是早就已經不在了這個議題其實根本沒有人要做長期的跟委員說明這不一定是什麼小組可是第一個是在這個議題裡面的各種的情境各種可能性其實勞動部都必須要去思考撥補是一個做法其中之一要研議吧不是只有思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6222.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6238.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
撥補是其中之一那基金的投資也是那我們也在做其他開源節流的部分那當然如果委員是要問比方說降幾付或者是提高費率這部分當然就是要做整體的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6240.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6266.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
這個部長你們可不可以提一個報告如果就我這樣的觀察123年喔這個收支逆差達到6000億喔你們會如何的改善然後預計要撥補多少基金投資收益要多少然後你剛剛說我還聽到你們要拍賣你們的資產就是說不動產就是來增加一些收益我是從媒體看到我不知道這個是不是確實的這不是我們主要的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6267.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6280.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
對那我希望你們提一個報告好不好至少是10年10年的你們怎麼樣去因應這樣的一個收支的一個逆差的一個報告你們提的出來嗎我想我們可以給委員一份說明可以吼好那要多久可以給本席兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6284.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6302.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
兩個月好那我希望可以看到這份報告接下來我要問那個移工的問題我直接看那個最後那個移工的那個開放政策移工的開放政策即將要破百萬那這樣的一個準備我們準備好了沒有最近大家都在看這個詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6304.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6318.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那最近有幾起的新聞報導我覺得也讓人家有點擔心就是因為我們失聯移工的這個人數其實也持續在增加當中那是不是有人去吸收他們就是有失聯移工去監這個車手然後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6323.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6342.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
被抓到這樣的一個情況今天好像移民署也有來就是說面對這樣的一個情況你們發現現在的現況的比例到底是多還是是少因為我們這個是初步的這樣的一個統計外籍車手有1000人這個情況部長你有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6343.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6354.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們其實都一直看到相關的資訊然後其實也有請我們的法案署跟移民署那包括跟警政單位來做一些協同的討論我請這部分請我們署長來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6356.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6381.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好來署長請說包委員其實這個情況我們一直在跨部會的平台裡面我們也是member之一那我們其實透過從他的入境入境的時候以及入境後透過各樣的管道以及各樣實體或數位的課程我們做了非常多的宣導跟教育訓練那只要有類似這樣的案件的時候其實我們在第一線地方政府也都會透過相關的資訊做通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6384.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6399.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
因為我們現在需要這個外籍移工的比例各行各業都上升最近其實又放寬了一波但是我要提醒的就是勞動部跟移民署就是一方面放寬的同時我們的這個管理其實也很重要不是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6401.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6416.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
放寬之後然後進來然後這個逃逸的移工人數又增加那逃逸的增加有一些部分失聯還變成是車手變成是犯罪集團去吸收一部分那這個對於台灣的整體的我們的社會秩序跟環境就不是一件好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6417.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6438.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以管理的責任在勞動部跟移民署你們有管理的責任我希望這一塊要去強化要不然這樣我看起來是另外一層的隱憂對台灣的社會安全其實形成了隱憂跟我說其實我們一直在跟來源母國討論那怎麼樣子不管是宣導也好或者是也要請來源母國協助那針對這個如果移工來台失聯的問題的話他們其實也應該要幫忙這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6445.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6462.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
做一些相對應的處置這我們也是在跟他們討論那第二個也是其實移工事業的問題其實某些部分也會跟這個強迫勞動的議題有關係所以我們其實接下來也會針對強迫勞動的議題進行一些相對應的這個策略來提出那我們都認為這可能會對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6463.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6477.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個移工失聯的狀況那能夠有些幫助好我希望你們關注這一塊因為百萬移工即將要到來那我不希望這個又變成形成我們另外一個在治安或者是在社會秩序上面的引誘好不好謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言現在請蘇清泉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6490.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6517.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
好 謝謝主席 我請部長還有勞保局白局長還有基金應用局蘇局長請部長蘇緣好今天大家都在替你擔心缺口是3.5兆這是怎麼算來的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6518.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6520.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
你是小心要蓋然後把費率在那裡鋪陳 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6522.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6549.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
委員並不是 這個你講的是潛藏負債那這個勞保基金的這個潛藏的負債其實主要的原因它其實是因為這個因為勞保是確定給付制嘛那在這確定給付制裡面其實我們不一定之前都不一定是有逐年這個提滿它的這個費率那費率可能是逐年的調高 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6550.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6572.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那所以其實在我們在看到各國的公共的基金的這個保險社會保險的公共基金裡面其實都會看到潛藏負債的狀況那這個潛藏負債的狀況並不會一次就實現所以我們看聽說勞保破產差不多聽了十幾年了每年都要破產每年都要過每年都過關頭過身就過我們現在勞保費率是12.5%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6578.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6601.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那裡面一般的是11.5%嗎12.5%是包括救保救保1%所以11.5%那這個11.5%有沒有在漲價的空間我們到116年是12%到 我覺得慢慢的會加到100到12%那有沒有打算又再漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6602.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6616.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
因為最有效的方法就是漲費率當然漲費率你要看勞工會不會動公司行會不會動跟我的說明的確不管是漲費率或者是相對的做法因為它確實會 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6618.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6637.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
涉及到比方說勞工或者是企業的這個部分所以這當然我們有聽當然各界會有人提出這樣子的主張但是的確這會需要也需要一些社會的討論跟社會的共識因為這也涉及到勞工的權益所以近期內沒有發生要去匯率吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6640.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6665.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們目前有人就叫你召開國事會議有人召開什麼東東的然後看起來都是在在研議研議研議嘛對我覺得各種做法當然我們都必須要有一些評估跟思考啦可是每個做法重點是他後面在社會接受度的可行性上面也要一併的考慮所以在你任內應該這個會議不會往上調啦這個跟這個衛福部部長那種執行的感觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6667.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6691.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我覺得我們現在當然就是包括是基金投資這幾年的收益很好也包括像現在持續的爭取撥補也很謝謝行政院跟組總願意在我們現在很辛苦的國家財政之下還是願意給勞保一定額度明年一千二以上的這樣子的撥補的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6692.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6712.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我想這部分要很謝謝主席我們現在勞保基金差不多1.2兆嘛勞動基金差不多7.43兆差不多嘛那新制的勞退基金4.9兆然後就職的差不多1.03兆所以加起來是10幾兆啊1313嘛勞動基金就是包含新制 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6722.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6733.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
7.4兆就是兩個加起來所有的勞動基金加起來是7.4兆所以你現在13兆那你又缺口又13.5兆你現在在玩魔術13兆是遣償負債它不是一定會實現的數字遣償負債 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6742.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6763.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
學者專家吃飽太遠都要想人想事常常聽到一天到晚恐嚇勒索我覺得我們傳統產業最近是蠻辛苦的台灣是靠單一的一個產業晶片產業佔了GDP的將近六七十%這是很可怕的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6765.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6780.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
萬一這個有點閃失的話整個是會像荷蘭這樣人家講荷蘭病荷蘭病荷蘭病就是在說什麼他們就是整個投到石化業因為整個北海挖到石油之後荷蘭可以分到錢就整個國家瘋狂都在搞石化業 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6782.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6801.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
搞一搞到最後就出事啦油價一噴盤 抓竊了我們台灣現在都在課晶片那個看起來是很棒的稅金也一大部分從那邊來那我們傳統產業自己又現在美國關稅又搞一搞的話是會很慘的耶所以某地方你有要注意一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6803.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6819.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這當然這是整體台灣的產業經濟的狀況也會有關於勞工的各種的條件跟待遇當然好所以短期內我們匯率就是明年到增加到12%之後你們沒有再往上調目前沒有啦因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6820.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6841.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
後年到12% 這是依法的部分所以部長你這個整個掌管整個全國勞工的勞動前夜還有公司行要讓他們能夠做下去有的要保護 有的要扶持 有的要補助等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6843.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6865.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以有時候也不要一昧的去苛責公司行號這邊有時候我覺得你們都太嚴格了啦然後去就不管三七二十一大家看著人然後勞動部的人都要害怕死了大家都要哀鴻騙人現在做構築是很難做的所以你們出去要和藹可親慈眉善目好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6871.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6886.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
輔導為主不要亂搞 哪個亂砍沒有人受得了我們大概就是本於保障勞工的職責然後來做我今天提的那個第63條遺囑年金這一塊這個受撫養這一塊是太嚴格了 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6891.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6908.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
老闆只是紛紛行事而已嘛你這個受扶養就要什麼有陪伴相都要寫得這麼完善然後這個孫女或者是兄弟姐妹就剛好我去準備的我去寫的我都不寫啦所以全部都站不出來嘛所以這點 寶刁我刪掉你有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6917.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6937.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員重點重點是在這個條文上面之前那個4至549號的解釋文大法官4至549號解釋文其實有說因為這個這個勞保其實是所得替代的性質它並不是遺產所以因為在這所談 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6938.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6957.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所得替代的性質之下所以他其實主要的會是針對要有這個撫養的條件這不是我們自己可以想怎麼定或者我今天行政部門想怎麼定因為這還是有一個大法官的視線在那個地方那從行政部門角度我們很難去違逆大法官視線的這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6961.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6983.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這個下面要闡述一個盲點不符合條例的人然後父母親也不在了然後後來是由出喪葬會那個人來請領死亡祈福這個也不合法怎麼到最後由這個出後世要搬嘛所以由出那個喪葬會的人去領這個死亡祈福現在是這樣在亂的這夠不合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6987.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7013.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
就是說我們的死亡給戶包括遺屬津貼跟傷案津貼傷案津貼是說如果就是五個月如果沒有遺屬或者是遺屬沒有符合條件的人我們提高傷案津貼為十個月這樣子就是五個月變成變十個月如果他只有兄弟姊妹沒有符合我們的條件的話那就會變十個月從五個月會變十個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7016.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7031.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好 那個你再研究一下我們來討論一下 好不好那另外一個就是救護法就是15到17歲這個我們把他也納入救護法特定對象部長你有什麼意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7032.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7049.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
根文說明 第一個因為主要是救護法24條的特定對象主要是針對就業弱勢但是因為青年其實青年的抑制性很高其實有很多青年他整體來說他在就業市場上是很有競爭力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7050.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7070.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
但也有一些在青年上面的確會是比較就在他的在找工作上會比較弱勢一點所以我們自己是擔心因為24條他其實我們有給很多相對應的就業津貼等等的 聘僱的津貼但如果我是把一整個青年全部都放進去的時候變成是這些所有的青年 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7071.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7086.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
他找工作等等等他都可以來申請我們的這相關的津貼的時候他可能在現有的機會如果現有的求職機會他是一個大一塊大餅的話他可能會對其他的弱勢的比方說身心障礙比方說中高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7087.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7109.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
比方說其他的這個二路就業的婦女他可能會產生一些排擠的效果所以我們自己是認為說青年也許現在大家看到他的失業率好像比平均來說高一些這確實但是主要如果仔細去看的話他主要比較高的原因是因為他並不是因為他客觀條件上面弱勢他比較是他在職官他在職涯的選擇上面還沒有定或者他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7110.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7128.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
求學跟就業之間還在猶疑在做選擇比較不是他因為他的身份上面客觀上面有哪些部分比較弱勢所以我自己是覺得說如果要討論的話我覺得我們可以討論但不是那麼適合把整個青年一整一非常完整的青年單獨講15到17歲的青少年你覺得怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7132.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7151.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
15到17歲就剛剛其實林月琴委員有講到我們自己的看法是這樣你要把完整的一整個這麼異質的青年全部放進來你就會把很多其實他明明就有很多就業他在就業上面明明是有優勢的人一樣把它放到24條那這就不太符合我們其實在24條當時設計的異質 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7154.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7168.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以我們應該是要就業弱勢才把它放進來所以我覺得如果當然委員討論裡面我們可以去比較框定說哪一群人真的在就業上面是比較弱勢的那我們把它範圍給框定清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7168.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7187.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
大家也確定這些人的確在就業商因為他的某些條件他真的會比較辛苦他真的需要政府比較多的幫忙我覺得這部分我們可以來討論可是如果完整的一個青年的概念剛才說15到29歲這個裡面涵蓋的範圍就非常非常廣可能裡面有很多是在市場上面很具競爭力的尋職的對象都在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7190.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7211.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 那最後一個問題就是今年跟去年都是補1200億嘛 中央政府那這個1200億是怎麼算來的是看他的財富剩餘啦還是看他那個行政院長這大概也是主席主席主席大概總體評估我們的財政狀況但是說實話因為這真的是要看財政狀況啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7216.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7242.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這邊還是要說是說我們都希望未來可以增加更多可是現在在中央政府的財政狀況在這個財務法的修訂之下它其實的餘裕 裕度就會大幅的降低其實我們對這回有擔憂的要努力爭取啦我們也希望能夠把整個中央政府的財政的裕度跟體質再做得更好才會有更多的餘裕可以來撥補勞保的財務好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7252.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7276.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
宣告待會兒劉建國委員詢答後休息十分鐘現在請王振旭委員詢答謝謝主席有請洪部長王委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7277.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7294.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
部長好 今天針對勞保條例跟救福法的審查主要有針對三個題目來跟部長討論第一個就是有關於勞保財務或穩定撥補的可能裁員剛剛很多委員都有跟部長在討論中 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7295.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7310.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
第二個部分是5人以下的投保單位合理納保的可能方案第三個就是有關於就業服務法要求經常性的薪資4萬元以下在招聘的時候要揭露的修法的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7310.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7336.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那這個第一個部分就是有關你財務勞保財務可能來源今天其實排審的勞保條例特別是勞保政府最終支付責任入法的部分政府這幾年來其實一直都有公開的做了政治的承諾而且連續多年的撥補了勞保每一年都有一千億所以我們認為勞保財務的關鍵問題還是在於勞保財源或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7340.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7347.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
政府撥補稅收的裁員錢要從哪裡來注入勞保基金才是核心的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7349.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7369.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那在這個核心的問題最近包括我們這個想想論壇在11月7號也發表一篇有關於聯金系列財務務需開源的這樣的這個不管是針對健保財源或是軍公教連改也做了一些討論那他列舉了有關於如何越獄飲水擴增財源還有這個延長聯金壽命 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7376.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7395.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這樣的概念之下呢它有包括第一個就是政府要編列預算撥補那這個部分我們已經在執行當中那第二個就是有要希望能不能加增營業稅那為什麼要透過加增營業稅主要是因為我國營業稅相較於國際偏低有增加的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7396.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7413.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
其實另外參考過去不管是菸稅或者是遺產稅可以用於在長照基金類似的概念將來能不能夠透過這個方式來撥補到這邊來第三個就是提高外匯存底收益率跟國庫的上繳率 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7414.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7427.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
當然我們也了解這些都不是勞動部這邊可以單獨來處理可是針對這樣的想法部長有沒有什麼樣的一些到底你的態度是什麼跟我們報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7428.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7446.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
其实对于任何能够有助于劳保基金财务的这个说越狱饮水也好或者是能够加大这个水龙头的做法我们当然都愿意持正面的态度来看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7447.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7468.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
但的確因為不管是加徵銀索稅或者是儲權基金的設置或者是這個外匯存底相關現在我們看到有些人在講的這個做法確實他都涉及到一些其他單位的權責尤其是財主單位財政部其他單位的權責那當然如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7470.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7479.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
这些财主单位那愿意来研议往这方面思考我们当然非常非常乐意那一起来讨论因为我想这些都会对老保财务是有帮助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7480.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7508.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以最重要就是讓勞工朋友可以安心不管如何政府一定會負最終責任各種裁員我們就努力的來爭取相信部長也會努力的來爭取第二部分就是五人以下的投保單位納保的規範這是在勞保條例的第六條有關於事業單位是否要設立投保單位來幫我們的受僱勞工投保的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7509.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7536.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那其實這是一個滿有歷史的一個過程我們也知道勞保制度是在1950年就開始開辦那勞保條例呢是在1958年開始立法那後來在20年後就是1979年修法強制設立投保單位的人數從原來的10人降低到5人以上就要能夠需要幫所有的這些勞工朋友要幫他做投保 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7536.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7561.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那五人以下的事業單位是否能夠自行選擇設立這個投保單位或者是由我們的職業工會來協助來投保這是目前在執行的部分那這樣已經經過46年來都沒有任何的修正那我們也了解說如果是採用這個過程的話我們可以看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7561.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7584.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
在勞工保險條例是70年的悠久歷史所以呢他就設立五人之下的這個投保那如果晚近三十年來不管是全民健康保險法就業保險法勞工退休條例還有那個勞災的保護等等其實都有規定所有雇的勞工都要全部投保 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7585.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7608.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個基本上就有人數上的差異那如果從這個社會保險制度的一致性公平性跟合理性來說的話我們可能真的要麻煩大家共同來思考是不是還要維持這個5人以下的事業投保單位來投保這樣的這個可能的這種改變那為什麼需要有這樣的改變我們可以從下面的資料看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7608.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7630.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
如果是事業單位幫受僱勞工投保的話僱主要負擔70%勞工負擔20%那政府負擔10%那如果透過職業工會的話呢他就有不同的這個方式而且政府負擔的部分他要給職業工會做相對的補助所以如果是5人以下看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7631.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7646.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
組織會工會對於這個失業單位可能會有某一些處理的模式的選擇那對政府負擔來講其實是增加了政府的負擔這個部分我們是很希望能夠有機會共同來討論或許衝擊會是大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7649.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7674.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
可是如果能夠透過討論的話我們希望能夠做一些相關的改變那到底目前有多少多少5人以下是在失業投保單位在投保我們根據這個今年7月份的資料可以看得出來有77萬人他是有透過失業單位在投保的那整體到底是多少的百分比這個部分不知道部長有沒有概念相關的數字我請 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7677.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7699.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
跟委員報告就是擴大事人以下單位要強制在勞保這個加保的這個部分當然是我們希望所有的勞動者都可以參加勞保或者是宅保所以我們在111年的5月1號開始我們受雇已登記一個人以上的雇主的勞工就全部強制納保 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7700.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7716.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們才會從勞保裡面把這個就是災保這些人把它拉出來單獨立法讓所有受僱的勞工都能夠受到工作上的保障這是第一點但是對於強制參加勞保的這一塊因為勞保的費率也是比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7717.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7731.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那我們經過多次的邀請勞資團體的意見溝通那與會的代表大概都還是認為這樣會大幅的增加我們雇主的成本那也可能會轉嫁到勞工的負擔會影響勞工的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7733.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7759.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那另外當然對公會的運作也會造成一定的影響那小型的單位他的人力物力也會不足那影響的層面包括企業包括公會或勞資團體都有餘力所以目前還沒有達到修法的公式 是了解所以我們才希望說有沒有機會再請到中部研議修正如果在勞保條例第六條修正以投保為原則的可能性如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7760.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7779.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
很難執行的話是不是能夠用一些增加限制納保的要件來做相當的規範那也希望能夠定期公開五人以下投保單位人數的占比統計可不可以麻煩這個部長這邊可以針對這個需求來提供書面意見給委員會參考兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7782.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7809.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好我們來把相關的我想我們把相關的一些評估那也讓委員這邊可以知道那之所以現在制度是這樣幾個考慮點在哪裡好謝謝那最後一個部分簡短的請教一下部長有關救護法修法跟薪資透明政策的部分那今天其實有一個重點就是希望讓這個青年可以納入到這個相關的範圍裡面那我們也了解其實年輕勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7811.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7835.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
救福就業的因素其實是蠻多元的尤其是整體就業環境是促進青年就業的重中之重可是裡面的薪資透明化的政策也是非常重要的依據根據救福法第五條目前是針對薪資四萬以下的介入的規定必須要在提供職缺的時候如果沒有公開揭示的話這是必須要受到規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7836.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7854.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們也可以看到下面一個數據4萬元好像是不少可是那是2018年制定的2018年的時候基本工資是2萬2千元那這幾年來其實勞動部很努力的希望讓最低工資提升已經從原來的2018的2萬2千元變成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7858.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7875.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
2025年28590到明年甚至會到29500所以包括新的平均薪資是5萬中位是4萬那如果我們還是用4萬元來處理的話相對似乎是在這個調整上必須要重新來思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7876.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7903.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那這一部分如果我們不要是定額而是用一個比例比如說如果將來改成最低工資的1.5倍或是什麼調整的機制那能不能夠讓這個目前所制定的4萬元這樣的方式可以做有效的調整不知道部長的意見是現在跟委員說沒有其實在去年的經發會就行政院的經發會其實這個行政院也有指示我們要來研議那把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7905.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7929.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
行之透明的這個門檻那再往上那去年當然有講到是五萬那當然現在我們也不排斥那因為很多委員其實也都提醒因為最低工資單逐年調漲那說不定到一定年份以後其實又有點接近五萬那所以這個是不是有可能他反而是一個最低工資的某些N倍N的一個倍數 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7930.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7955.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
然後來作為一個調整這個薪資透明化門檻的機制我想我們也願意來我們也正在研議這個做法大家也在想說哪一個倍數會比較適合的確就國際上面來說的話薪資透明化的確是一些國家能夠來去透過資訊公開的方式來促使薪資往上拉或者讓雇主不敢開那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7958.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7982.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
很不想要讓外界知道的低薪的狀況這是一個很明確的做法所以我們也很希望這個研議能夠趕快來推出好 那會不會麻煩把這個研議報告一個月提供給委員會跟辦公室來參考是 好 謝謝OK 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝汪委員 謝謝部長來 接著我們請廖偉祥委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7992.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8018.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
謝謝主席 請洪部長部長日前在新北有個流性女子跟其六個月大的孩子她慘遭了丈夫殺害然後丈夫再自殺造成一家三口滅門的悲劇讓我們社會非常震驚 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8019.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8044.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
但是其實這則的家庭悲劇本來是有可能有機會可以避免的為什麼這麼說呢因為流性女子在當媽媽後他說雖然遭受到之前等不利對待但仍在他的社群媒體寫下諸如抱病懷孕生產顧娃我不能死或是沒媽的孩子最可憐等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8045.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8057 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以可見這個流性女子雖然身處人生的低谷但是她還是有這個母性的光輝但很可惜最終還是敵不過職場上的一些惡意所以我們也可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8058.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8077.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
流行女子她同時也抱怨懷孕時被雇主以不適任為由資遣求職時仍遭嫌棄說像看到鬼或者苦嘆說政府說骨欲生欲結果孕婦處處碰壁她遲遲沒有辦法找到工作導致經濟上的壓力最終也造成了這個悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8078.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8091.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那根據勞動部的違反勞動法令的事業單位查詢系統近年涉及懷孕歧視拒絕家庭照顧假或者育嬰留職停薪不當處分這個違法的案件遍佈全台 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8093.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8116.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
但是從法律事務所 科技製造業到醫療院所有這樣的裁罰記錄所以顯示孕期跟育兒友善環境仍然很不足甚至有一些醫院的案例裡面也只罰了兩萬塊 根本不痛不癢所以導致了這起的悲劇發生 一家三口直接被丈夫 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8117.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8136.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這個殺害之後再自殺所以我就想要請問部長我們到底要怎麼樣讓雇主在到這個在孕婦跟懷孕員工的看到他們的時候是可以看到寶不是看到鬼可以營造更好更友善的職場環境根本說明這當然不是看到鬼 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8137.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8151.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
當然不是我說他的這是他講的講講話的方式我說怎麼讓他們看到寶不是看到鬼你要怎麼樣可以真正的去改善這個環境不要再讓這樣子的社會憾事發生第一個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8152.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8176.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我們有注意到這個案件那這個案件當然發生在新北市所以第一但第一線會是地方政府要去做相關的查查但我們的確也現在也格外重視在職場上面不管是懷孕或者是育兒的勞工相關的權益這也是為什麼我們在提出一個這個我知道你重視我們常常也討論的蠻多的啊我是說根據這個事件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8177.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8206.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
就看起來他就是還是沒有改善嘛就是說他還是有很大的改善空間我剛剛也講到甚至很多財閥他可能也很少不痛不癢那除了財閥當然我們不希望說只是財閥而已究竟到底部長到底你們有沒有精進檢討到底要怎麼做才不要再讓這樣子的憾事發生第一個我認為該財閥就必須落實財閥是那甚至是財閥的金額我們也願意來跟地方政府討論這是不是可以其實有一個怎麼樣的空間盡量大家去遏止這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8207.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8232.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
第二個這裡面的確涉及到一些職場上面的文化的問題所以我們目前有規劃接下來會有一個計劃來加強宣導另外我們也會希望能夠做一樣的計劃對懷孕歧視的計劃那包括我們也會來跟相關的法律輔助的單位來討論因為在這裡面其實比較大的問題是有蠻多遇到懷孕歧視員工對他來說他遇到了可是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8234.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8254.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
不敢申訴不敢舉手或者是相對應可以保護他的資源不夠多所以我們其實現在也在規劃要跟相關的法律輔助的團體來這個法服來去合作那怎麼樣子可以給更多遇到懷孕歧視的勞工更多的支持最後一點我要說我們也有計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8256.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8282.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
接下来针对像这样怀孕歧视的问题如果被裁罚违法的事业单位我们会有个专案的揭露跟专案的公布你们会打算往专案揭露跟专案公布我们也希望让外界知道这样子一个企业很多企业它的形象看起来不错但是居然还有怀孕歧视的状况那我们也希望让外界知道哪些企业会有这个状况这也是我们希望能够 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8283.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8307.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
提出來的做法 謝謝部長你有這個正面回應那也可以把你剛剛相關的你們打算做的經濟作為具體的作為給本席辦公室兩個禮拜可以嗎我們會在應該是11月底對不對我們會在11月底其實會把我們這相對應的計畫給提出來好就是兩個禮拜好謝謝接下來我要問一下青年失業率的問題這個圖中我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8309.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8316.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
接下來下一頁 對圖中我們可以看到歷屆的歷年的這個青年失業率全體和各個年齡層的曲線都是平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8317.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8338.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那就是過去和現在實施的這個投資青年就業方案那第二期是112年到115年那初次尋職的青年穩定就業計畫等我是覺得成效在哪裡我們看不到尤其是在第一期跟第二期的投資青年就業方案都有推動提供符合產業趨勢及就業市場的訓練課程措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8342.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8352.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那麼其中針對這個失業跟待業的青年執行職前訓練計畫還有一個叫做青年就業旗艦計畫那這兩項職前的訓練課程結果110年到112年的職前訓練的計畫訓後三個月的全職就業比率僅五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8363.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8376.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
左右而已喔那落後青年就業旗艦計劃所謂逾九成的訓後全職就業比率那也就是說這個政府投資下去課程開了青年上完課了卻只有五成進入職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8377.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8400.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以請問部長這個部分是發生了什麼狀況要怎麼樣重新檢討跟文說明其實台灣的青年的失業率並沒有比OECD其他國家來的高其實我們大概都比我們針對這個計畫的成效來講第二個剛剛在那張圖上其實可以看出其實我們青年的失業率其實也這幾年一路的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8401.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8419.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
在各國其實都會有類似的狀況就是青年的失業率比總體的失業率來的高但是在25歲以後失業率就會快速的下降我覺得會必須要去探究青年失業率相對比較高的原因大概有幾個第一個是其實很多的年輕人他其實還在一個尋職的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8422.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8436.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
不確定的階段也包括他也在考慮他是要繼續工作他要進入職場還是要繼續就學那他也包括對自己在職場裡面的這個哪一個職涯選擇的 部長我們先針對我剛提出的這個問題你剛講是一個很大範圍的一個狀態我剛講是說這個計劃本身的成效他只有五成好所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8446.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8464.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
針對青年失業率這個問題其實自勞發署執訓中心到現在勞動力發展署各署成立青年職涯發展中心簡稱青職中心其實都一直是來協助這個青年規劃職涯的核心單位但是根據監察院的調查報告也發現有許多的問題首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8465.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8494.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
你們勞發署自107年設定這個輕職中心八大核心服務項目以來部分的項目目標值設定過於寬鬆導致達成率屢屢嚴重超標甚至有達成率破千的驚人成績所以我要講的事情是講白了這樣子的績效設定是不是流於形式這也導致無法有效評估輕職中心對於提升青年就業率或者是就業率至 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8495.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8509.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
職場續航力的實質表現換句話說就是這些設定的標準是治本設定這樣子的虛假KPI這個是監察院的調查報告不是我講的這個部分怎麼樣是不是可以檢討怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8510.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8529.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
把這個所謂產出型指標調整成為這個實質成效的成果型的指標以具體的來評估輕職中心在提升青年就業跟就業安置還有職場穩定上面的功能和效益跟文說明如果按照文前一張投影片那個50%的那個投影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8530.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8552.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為這個職前訓練計畫跟就業期間計畫其實它還是有不太一樣的定位跟屬性所以有點難直接拿數字來去做比較比方說職前訓練可能也會有一些他受訓完以後他可能就又會去念書好 部長我再跟你說那就是同樣的一個調查報告也指出輕職中心服務對象跟資源重疊的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8553.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8579.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以輕職中心的服務對象廣泛的列入15到29歲各級學校的學生跟畢業的青年那其中一對於職癌的這個諮詢的對象也在學青年的比率偏高那業務內容跟大專業校的學生輔導中心高度重疊另外青年失業率最該重視的四個部分分別是長期待業者居家的這個減居族 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8580.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8604.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
或者是就是常常還有或者就是說這個卻志族啊有時候常常說有意願跟有能力工作卻因為種種因素失去工作動力者及就這個依就業服務法納為就業促進對象的青少年等不利就業不利族群喔所以就剛剛講到了你說有很多可能有分別可是這裡也講到他有資源重疊的問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8605.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8619.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那所以勞動部似乎是要重新界定這個輕職中心的優先服務對象而非與在學青年高度重複做無用功的這個部分跟文說明其實這分幾個層次來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8622.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8638.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
第一個其實很多同學跟我們說其實學校裡面提供的一些職涯的資訊他們其實往往覺得不夠所以這也是為什麼我們其實需要進到學校裡面來提供大家求職的資源包括職涯的諮詢的原因這是第一個因為很多同學跟我們說其實學校提供的是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8638.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8661.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以你認為監察院的這個所謂的資源重置的報告是不對的不是這個意思所以我們認為把一個把這個關注的點放在在學的青年我認為這件事沒有錯但是我認為我們的確可以來檢討讓這些比方說長期的待業者或者是減居族或者是這些就業不利的青少年他們所受到的資源我認為可以再更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8662.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8683.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
可以再把关注的点再更放在他们身上这就是我刚刚咨询的点没有错就是你应该要把重点抓出来而不是资源一直重置但是在学青年也是我们很重要的关注对象我认为这件事情是没有错的在我们的YS里面这个事情不一定有错但我们可以把其他的部分尤其更弱势的青年再增加再更优先一些这事情是我们可以来检讨可以做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8683.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8700.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
是 最後還有一個這個有關於青年就業的部分還有一個問題 輕職中心在一對一的職涯諮詢人員也存在人力流動率過高平均年資淺或者部分中心甚至平均只有一年多然後薪資偏低而且缺乏經驗傳承的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8701.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8726.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那當然就是各分屬材每年招標委辦一次的方式它也有可能不利於這個確保諮詢服務品質所以這個部分你們要怎麼精進因為比如說比較好的人才要怎麼留任其實他的經驗傳承的方案到底是什麼這個部分你們要怎麼去把它完善這樣子的品質是 跟委員報告基本上我們在每年的標案裡面我們都會有要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8727.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8746.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
受委任的廠商他必須要提供的專業人員包括學經歷以及他的工作經歷所以我們在標案裡面每年都有做這樣的要求那如果是優質的人員當然我們會希望承接的廠商可以繼續沿用那這個我們在機制裡面是都有的所以你覺得現在已經是很完善了 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8747.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8768.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我不敢說完善但是我們在標案裡面確實有這樣的意思因為我們也擔心因為它是用委外的方式處理有可能因為換了廠商導致人員離開是啊 所以我現在想要提醒你們這件事情因為現在看起來是有這樣的問題你要輔導人家就業結果沒有經驗的傳承那你這些東西應該是要再去檢討是不是可以再給本席辦公室兩個禮拜相關的檢討報告好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8769.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8792.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好那最後我們可以提供最後部長我還是要問一下其實今天還有很多人問到有關於這個全國一孩家庭有多少戶啦這個家事移工的這個部分啊我是想要補充問一下我想請問一下賴總統說出這個政策的時候有先跟你們討論嗎他有做過相關的數據的調研然後才講出這個政策嗎還是一時興起 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8793.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8804.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我想總統講什麼不會是一時興起不會是一時興起當然不會是一時興起那可是剛剛他們問很多相關的調查的數據你們都沒有那怎麼去說要做這件事我們都在評估中 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8805.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8825.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
你評估中但是他們剛剛好多個委員問譬如說現在全國一海家庭到底有多少戶那你們這邊是回答不出來戶政資料大概就可以看得到吧可是並不是當然我想要表達是有部分的家庭他有表達他有很明確這個需求但也不是所有的家庭都表達有這個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8826.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8850.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以我的意思是說我們其實目前就是在相關的數據我們都在評估之中部長這關鍵的意思就是說賴總統在講出來這個之前有沒有跟你們討論過有那你們有提供相關的數據嗎那為何不然怎麼會賴總統講出這個話我們有提供相關的資訊當然就在我們討論過程裡面我想所以部長這代表說他有跟你們討論過那你們也認同賴總統的政策囉我們現在就是在評估中 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8851.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8866.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
對但是你是評估中嘛正常的政策發表尤其是總統講出來的話他不是應該是跟你們討論好很確定你們的專業評估完數據都出來之後他才會說好我們現在要做這件事總統也是把這個想法請我們評估所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8867.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8887.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以總統是話講太快還沒評估完成就先講出來嗎總統不是話講太快你看總統也是請行政部門做這個評估包括行政院我跟他宣布說要做這件事情是兩件事喔總統講出來這句話的這個概念真的跟你們所謂的評估不同所以我要本席要表達所以總統其實也是請我們評估啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8887.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
8899.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以本席想要表達的意思就是說那這個還沒講出來之前你們有沒有先具體的評估完才跟總統講這件事好那這件事情你是說他有跟你溝通了我們針對相關的政策概念當然有討論好那我想要請問那你們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
8903.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
8923.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
大概評估的方向有哪些呢因為剛剛部長有提到有人說這個家庭幫傭社福義工家庭幫傭多少人全國一孩家庭有多少戶或者是說你剛剛有討論到有人說遲緩家庭遲緩兒家庭先優先或是要多元家庭評估又或者是你們要從點數上面去做調整這個部分有沒有大概的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
8924.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
8944.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我們還是在幾個原則上面去做相關的評估思考那第一個事情當然是當然我們也在意這個本國勞工的就業的相關的權利那第二個呢其實行政院也請我們要考慮比方說多元家庭的需求不同家庭不同的需求第三個是當然希望能夠具體的減輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
8947.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
8965.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這個家庭照顧的負擔者他的實際的負擔那大家也會在意是不是有一些在照顧品質上面也必須要留意這幾個方向我們都希望能夠考慮進來目前是這四個方向這幾個我們都考慮這幾個也是行政院請我們要評估的一些思考點 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
8967.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
8981.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
好我還是跟部長說這個相關的評估要這個很務實的去做完評估之後再推出這個政策才不會導致好像很多政策丟出來像是試水溫一樣這不利於執政團隊讓人民的信賴好謝謝部長好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
8999.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9012.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
請劉建國委員發言好謝謝主席有請黃部長有請黃部長國庫署羅祖密主計總處黃專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9017.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9031.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
來 部長早部長 勞保這顆炸彈原本從可能是2026、2028要爆炸對不對然後在精算之後目前預估是在2031年會炸了所以大家應該還有一點喘息的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9037.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9060.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我這麼說你應該能夠理解我要表達意思是 但是2031這數字因為它其實還是有很多前提的條件2031的那時候是今年上半年的精算的報告那它的前提是我們在一個不一定很不是很高的這個投資的收益率然後還有往後都今年以後都不撥補的情況下才是2031年 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9061.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9084.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
不是很高的收益率然後沒有確定穩定的這個撥補有可能嘛對不對就是這兩個因素他是設定今年以後都沒有撥補才是2031反正就是今年以後有這兩個狀況可能就會提早到2031年嘛應該是這麼說嘛這兩個因素如果發生了就可能2031年就要倒了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9084.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9111.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
按照精算 精算報告是這樣寫當然我們不能讓它發生所以我們才持續的在撥補也希望把收益率提高對 所以我才要跟你討論就這兩項問題來討論就這兩個層面問題第一個 我還是用這樣來表達就好像一個絕症的病人你一直用持續這種無效的醫療去救治他坦白說 到最終只是苟延殘喘可能多半年 多一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9112.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9139.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
諸如此類就像你那種那你剛講的那兩個因素如果不見了就是這兩種這兩種特效藥如果其中有一項不見了那當然可能就提早結束他的生命我用在隱喻然後然後但如果病人要活著的時候醫師要想把他救治基本上我們是我們是立法院是自作為治理國家政策的一個單位那我們這個單位當然我們要自行我們要自行來看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9140.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9164.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
看待到底這個勞保這個部分這基金應該怎麼去做一個因應跟改善改變的一個方式然後提出這樣的一個建言也給勞動部來做參考我最後要講的就是說政府撥補幫勞保基金來續命前提不會有人反對啦政府負最終的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9165.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9189.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
大家都會舉雙腳贊成對不對但是如果每年都要這麼補到底是要補多久然後如果是常態性的這樣補那當時設立這個勞保基金的目的跟現在的這種處理的方式那顯然不是已經都已經變樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9192.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9204.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
走鐘了然後我才要跟部長來就教這幾個問題第一個我們現在看這個勞保基金的規模大致上是一兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9205.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9228.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
一兆一千多億嘛一兆二下半年突破一兆二你是怎樣怎麼不會動你是聽到要再快倒了所以你很緊張是不是然後這個勞保請求債務是13兆多嘛對不對沒有錯嘛目前所以就將近10倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9232.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9242.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
將近10倍出了那救治的軍工教育人員的退休金是3兆然後這個工人員的退休補習金是差不多在2兆左右嘛主席總書這個應該沒有問題嘛對不對這數據正確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9247.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9259.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
這數據正確吧OK 好 謝謝我為什麼要用這來比喻因為這也是根據組織總署截至6月底的統計指出台灣中央及地方政府潛藏負債總計來到20.5兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9262.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9282.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我如果有數字上的一些操縛你要提醒好不好然後這是潛在的債務而且台灣目前的國債也高達6兆多然後但台灣一年的整個這個付稅才收入也才3兆多我是用這樣的一個財務條件來看待這個事情如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9283.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9298.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我們一般的家庭要知道我這樣的狀況就必須要尊潔支出然後請到省值花但是如果有多餘的進帳就要趕緊來補這個缺口沒有錯嘛所以你應該都可以認同我的講法嘛沒有問題嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9299.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9319.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
所以在112年全國共同努力下台灣度過三年的疫情邁入後疫情時代台灣整體的經濟發展在疫情時對比其他國家仍屬於前段班然後蔡政府當時有提出疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算案3800億還普發了6000元這個大家應該記憶猶新嘛而且也特別編列300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9328.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9353.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
補勞工保險基金沒有錯啦 好 對今年換了新政府我們因應國際情勢強化這個經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算高達5450億也普花1萬元給民眾結果不僅台電沒有辦法接受撥補聯勞保基金在這次特別預算也僅撥補100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9357.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9362.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
沒有錯嘛 今年對 上次預扣的特別預算3800億撥補勞保300億 佔當時的預算是7.9%這一次5400多億是這個3800億的1.43倍 結果只撥補100億佔比僅1.83% |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9383.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9396.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
部長什麼原因你沒有積極爭取你不重視各位你說不是因為第一個當然因為這明年的明年的公務預算裡面我們已經爭取1200的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9400.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9420.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
1200億的撥補的金額所以其實這跟當時在那個112年或者是111年當時的狀況其實也會有不同所以整體來說其實我們現在撥補的金額並沒有比較少那當然這是再加上這個這一次特別預算裡面的100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9422.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9440.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我都用特別預算來跟你講嘛對不對我用特別預算來對照嘛一千兩百一千不談我就用特別預算來對照嘛他三千八百億的時候可以撥補到三百億五千多的時候只有撥補到一百億那基本上就是減少嘛所以你講的兩個因素就會擔心嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9441.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9471.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
對不對 一千兩百一千不談嘛就只用特別預算來對照我們會盡量再來跟主總爭論所以我知道很多不是不是部長的因素啦但是我還是提醒部長可能要更積極來做相關的因應也可能要跟行政會講說過去有這樣的數字有這樣的撥補那現在這個特別預算的規模更大高達之前的特別預算是1.43倍怎麼可能反而在這個撥補的金額去縮小了 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9473.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9501.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
所以這部分提醒部長那我再給部長看兩件事情看一個訊息這是兩位教授講的那第一個是陳教授改革要多管齊下除了政府撥補投資效益基金投資效益讓基金維持一定在水位下政委可以舉在仿效挪威的成立主權基金把這個收益專管專用及強化社會保障另外一個是郝教授長期而言勞保還是要啟動年金改革初期對薪金流量影響不大所以應在年改前啟動儲備基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9503.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9516.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
一個是主權基金 一個是儲備基金那儲備基金過去立法院在第十屆的時候立法院有很多同仁也都有做這樣的建議甚至於是說裁員的超徵稅收並要明定超徵的八成都要作為該儲備基金的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9520.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9535.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
但是這個之後就沒有進度了我不曉得主席總署跟國庫署怎麼看待這件事情如果你們要回應都可以然後再來對比勞動部這次特別預算中只爭取到100億我是覺得這個是真的大家要來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9538.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9560.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這個大家要檢討因為時間的問題那第二個不只是儲備基金我們賴總統在今年520的就職週年也宣布將成立主權基金打造國家級的投資平台這兩個社會關注的問題一個是勞動部的勞工保險基金勞工的退休基金會不會是主權基金的組成之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9561.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9578.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
因為現在大家都說這兩大勞動基金有主權基金之實沒有主權基金之明你們怎麼回應第一個 那這個勞動基金目前在主權基金的這個組成的討論裡面我請我們這個運用局來跟委員說明請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9581.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9600.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們勞動基金的性質主要是來自於勞工大眾所以我們對於主權基金我們不會直接用勞動基金去直接的投資參與我們性質上比較不適合這兩個基金不會成為主權基金的組成之一啦你要回答我是這樣嘛對不對好那就明確囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9602.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9622.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
不會有變動喔在目前的討論裡面是這樣在目前討論嘛往後的討論會不會變動我們就是很清楚的表明其實目前勞動基金是我要跟部長討論這個事情是這樣嘛他如果未來不是主權基金之一那最好那如果未來是你們要怎麼因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9624.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9650.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們沒有 目前沒有收到你們有相關的這樣的一個評估嗎目前沒有收到要把勞動基金放到主權基金裡面好 最好就是沒有嘛如果有你們要怎麼處理嘛好 如果沒有的話如果沒有的話那未來的主權基金成立之後有沒有機會也可以挹注到勞保基金上我們不去做它的組成之一但是如果成立主權基金那勞保基金是不是未來有性了可以由主權基金這邊來做相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9653.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9665.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這當然是我們現在在北歐的這個組成基金模式裡面有看到這個狀況有看到這個做法那任何有助於勞保的裁員我們都會使正面的態度來看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9667.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9692.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
會持怎樣 我們都持正面的態度 希望能夠演繹啊我如果單純只有持正面態度來看待我們也希望能夠 能夠多出去爭取各種可能性 天上不會掉下一個禮物給你 不可能嘛 對不對我們會持正面態度來爭取所以是不是要相關的一些評估跟盤點然後是不是也要有所規劃包含儲備基金 包含未來的主權基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9694.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9710.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
你們是不是有一些相關的一些因應跟評估的這樣的一個作為我想我們會來做因為財源的事情非常非常的慎重然後而且也非常重要所以我們當然任何可能有關可以成為挹注勞保基金的財源我們都願意來做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9712.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9731.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以我們可能就是要適好做組準備嘛應該是這個樣子嘛可能我們自己的版本要很多種當行政院當中的這邊在準備主權基金的過程裡面我們現在在委員會已經答覆了喔不可能稱為這兩個基金不可能稱為主權基金的這個成分之一喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9732.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9760.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們其實在之前在委員會上面有表達這個性質上真的不太一樣當然是不太一樣不過有時候有些事情的變動也不是部長可以現在這樣答覆我然後到時候的這個怎麼講反正因應整個世界的這種輪動很多事情的變動速度是很快的好不好然後儲備基金有沒有要儘快來納入評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9762.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9785.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我覺得現在只要各方有在談到的各種經過我們都願意來評估但不過這確實也需要全職單位一起來這個研議啦對所以所以是我要成立這個儲備基金未來如何應驗主權基金的相關的未來的分配是不是有個可行性的評估可以來給委員做參考我們可以來評估一下那來跟委員這邊來說明兩週內 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9789.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9801.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
一個月兩個月可以嗎兩個月會期這本市會期結束前可以嗎可以好謝謝那最後最後部長有掌握到這個新聞嗎請他請回主席跟那個副會長請回 不好意思 都沒問到哪一個新聞先靠那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9816.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
9820.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
蛤 你是很擔心勞保倒了是不是不然你今天怎麼怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
9824.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
9850.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
有個新聞到台南的職安處去申訴整個身份資料竟被直接寄到公司那是相關的三人患堵職罪這起案件是勞動部轄下的職安處承辦員在發送公文的時候直接把當事人的名字全部露出直接讓該保密的案件攤在陽光下這個大家都知道就這案 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
9851.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
9858.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
部長知道嗎 有掌握嗎 有知道 這是個案嗎這個案子應該是在台南的食安處他的發文發錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
9862.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
9887.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我請署長說 部長你要用方案發錯了跟委員報告這個案子的話因為目前台南市是部分授權有一些事業單位轄區還是在治安署的南區中心那這個申訴案呢應該是發文給我們本署的南區中心結果在正本呢誤植給原申訴公司所以是誤植剛剛我們有了解那個案子是誤植 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
9888.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
9903.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
一個物質可以把證人相關的這些投訴人相關的名字當事人都把他露出來因為物質所以這非常不適當這確實非常不適當部長剛才打呼我這樣署長又打呼我這樣那這個事情顯然大家會沒完沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
9905.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
9924.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我們剛修的職安法還有霸凌的專章還有要如何保護當事人然後我們現今的法律勞動良法這個報導裡面特別提到最後最後一段有勞動良法都有所規範然後上面的報導裡面是講這個公益接避責7月上路沒有規範到這個這個這個事部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
9927.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
9951.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
滴滴答答講的一大堆 重重之重就是我們是有相關的規範 法律的規範在保護當事人 保護投訴人 保護這個員工怎麼這個事情還會發生到這種程度 上個禮拜還修了職安法所以這個錯誤是不能被接受的對 這個 我沒有要求你再去對這些人做什麼樣的處置啦但是這絕對不是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
9953.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
9970.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這絕對不是個案啦我想我們會來加強對檢察員的訓練我覺得這件事情對我而言在未完這麼久我覺得它是一個非常離譜而且非常嚴重的事情這等體的教育訓練是出了什麼問題是 我們會來加強訓練這個可能不只教育訓練出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
9970.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
9989.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
而且亦有民事故患的這樣的一個嫌疑但最終我尊重司法的這樣的一個判定所以我不是說你要特別去做怎麼處理但是我說它不是個案我們還有一個中心也是這樣有證人的訊息還被外洩被當事人知道並提告的狀況發生現在在訴訟中 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
9993.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10015.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
勞動部 洪部長 你的主政之下這些事情你可能要特別小心是 當然對 因為前的部長是因為什麼事件下來這是沒有辦法被接受的現在如果不是主體是這些霸凌的事情反而是相關的當事人 投訴人經常有這種狀況持續的發生這代表勞動部上上下下整體這樣的一個機制 系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10019.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10035.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
甚至於文化 我都覺得必須要洪部長要大刀闊斧慎重的來面對加以的來管制處理不然這種事情絕對會層出不窮是好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉昭偉那我們現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10678.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10681.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好繼續開會接下來請林淑芬委員發言好謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10699.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10712.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
部長 超高齡社會的來臨少子化勞動力不足也是一個問題但是勞動力高齡化危機也是不容忽視 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10713.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10732.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
但是我們要問的就是說政府和企業準備好了嗎辛炳榮教授他有提出來他說上一次我們勞基法修法強制退休的規定修法只做了半套因為我們允許勞僱雙方協商可以再延後他們其實認為說其實政府應該增加幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10738.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10767.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
鼓勵的機制 留任的機制那協助企業不要只用年齡作為退休與否的這個判斷基礎那強制退休的規定還會造成老人貧窮因為高齡者被強制退休以後你知道的再度就業事實上找到了工作跟收入都會低很低在這種狀況裡面他們提到第一個就是說不應該因為年齡設限而應該要訂出留任 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10767.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10793.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
留任65歲以後因為我們的修法是雙方要協議那雙方如果沒有協議的話還是要被強制退休其實我們應該要教企業如何評估讓65歲的員工留下而且也需要有檢測的機制專門定期的關心高齡者的工作狀態另外高齡者退休以後的收入如果不足以負擔他的生活費的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10794.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10822.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
應該要規範想想想繼續留下來工作卻被強迫退休者的問題這個問題其實知識體大另外有人說其實應該參考這個南韓或者是說其他的國家我們要政府要定一個鼓勵的政策這個鼓勵的政策要鼓勵企業僱用一定比例的中高齡的勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10823.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10841.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那他雇佣到一定比例以後 我們給他獎勵而不是現在說63、64歲到了 借齡要退了才給獎勵這樣子可能會鼓勵這樣的企業 可能這樣政策方向或許可以是我們下一次的這個政策檢討的時候要討論比較好的 比較務實的 你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10846.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10873.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
跟委員報告的確其實現在很多企業都在講這個缺工那我們在幾乎每一次的跟企業的座談裡面也都跟他們提及其實恐怕未來中高齡的勞工占我們的整體人力的重要性只會越來越提高我自己感覺其實也越來越多的企業其實接受這個看法的確我覺得接受這個看法而且願意在中高齡勞工上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10873.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10895.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
去多做投入跟嘗試的企業我覺得越來越多但是我覺得政府要拿出政策手段來因為這個OECD在2023年的時候指出人工智慧的導入在性別年齡和薪資上都有具體的影響效應特別是性別上面是女性是較顯著年齡上面就中高齡所受到的衝擊是影響最嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10898.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10927.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以在薪资变动上是很明显的对年轻族群来讲AI的导入是对年轻族群有益他的薪资或许会提升但是中高龄和年轻人可能会两极化M型化在这种状况里面我们需要政府的政策手段出来而政府的政策手段我要引进最近104的几个报道几个调查104他们最新发布了2025年超高龄社会企业 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10928.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10940.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
人才他永續的新思維白皮書在這個裡面呢他們2025年你看那個數據2025年企業友善中高齡職缺的只有28% |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10943.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10960.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
企業普遍認為 聘僱中高齡的最大難題是薪資過高請問你對聘僱中高齡 你遇到哪些困難企業遇到覺得 這個中高齡年資升了 漲了薪水都比年輕人還要高所以他們普遍認為勞動成本高 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10963.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10976.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
但是他們標示而且擔心標示了中高齡在虛空的廣告上去標示說我們歡迎中高齡的話他們認為說會影響年輕人的應徵的意願事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10983.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11005.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
中高齡求職就一般的來看我們從企業端他覺得如果我在求職廣告上面求徵員工的廣告上面寫了我歡迎二度就業好像年輕人就不來了可是我們從勞工的立場來看這個民調他們也做民調了104也做民調了政府沒有做的104都在做了我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11006.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11028.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
本來都是政府應該要實際上去協助和去做的調查真正的勞工在想什麼年輕的勞工在想什麼真正的勞工你去找工作的時候最先考慮到的是什麼年輕人並不是思考到說我不想要跟中高齡一起工作所有的勞工不管是哪個年紀他們第一個想到說我工作的地點是我第一的需求51.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11030.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11051.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
但是第二個他們的需求其實講的是說我的薪資要可以得到多少所以在這裡啊這裡面數據沒有列出來是93.7%的年輕人正向的看待中立的看待標示歡迎中高齡的企業的求這個不是求職的徵才 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11055.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11080.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以企業都覺得說他們過去的那種概念其實是錯誤的可能錯估了求職者的心聲而錯失了中高齡的人才這是我第一點要講的第二點呢我國50歲以上的各年齡層的勞參率你知道普遍低於南韓 美國 日本和新加坡部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11081.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11088.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我国在这个50岁以上的劳餐率是多少应该是大概50出头53吧53.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11095.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11120.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
你知道日本和新加坡在45歲到64歲勞參率仍然有八成45歲到64歲人家是80我們是6767.2但是如果在65歲以上你知道日本是多少新加坡是多少嗎65歲以上應該還有20幾以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11123.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11143.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
20幾 新加坡還32.5而台灣只有多少9.9 10沒有錯所以這種狀況裡面我們看到勞保財務惡化但是政府也從來沒有去提到說對提高中高齡就業率它也是一種方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11144.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11167.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那個跟我們說明其實我們在中高齡的就業的專法通過以後其實很多計畫都開始實施而且其實也蠻有成果的其實這幾年也蠻有成果的那你現在告訴我你們具體的政策有哪些有成果的有成果的因為我剛才看到的數據也是最近的113年去年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11168.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11188.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
報告委員其實我們有一個在專訪通過之後我們有一個正位中高齡跟高齡者的三年的專案計畫那我們都是滾動檢討那我們目標就是每年要協助12萬人投入就業職場那對不起是人次12萬人那我想我們會朝這個目標持續的努力好沒關係你這樣講我也聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11190.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11209.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
但是我就拿你們自己去年的數據113年中高齡及高齡的統計113年中高齡及高齡男女的失業人數各為6.4和4.3所謂的失業人數是他有就業意願65歲以上不是中高齡和高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11210.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11235.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
他還有就業的意願可是男女加起來還10萬人以上那個失業率還是2點幾%平均起來男女加起來是2%以上而且我們看到女性的失業的狀況還比男性還要更嚴重因為女性容易因為家庭因素提前離開職場但是他很想重回返職場可是他的限制很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11237.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11261.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
在這種狀況裡面是這一張圖嗎是這一張圖所以這種狀況裡面中高齡婦女友善環境對他們講是最迫切的需求所以你們說你們的政策端出來我們就不知道說跟103年來比跟10年前來比去年的統計的數字103年跟10年女性中高齡的失業人數還增加了2萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11264.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11270.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
兩萬人 十年前女性的這個失業人數45到64歲是兩萬三千人到113年是四萬三千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11278.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11293.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
所以你們說你們的政策做得很不錯我不是說不錯或者是說不需要再改善不是這個意思我是說其實這幾年因為之前那個中高齡的專法修了以後其實很多計畫在推廣那也包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11295.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11311.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以計畫推廣最終一定要落實在一個數據上面有意願工作卻找不到工作的那他的失業率應該要下降人數應該減少可是我們113年還比103年還多2萬其實不是多2萬是多一倍多一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11313.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11334.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們是看到比率上面的勞參率是有提高但是就實際的絕對性的數字的話我們可以來再看一下他之所以現在呈現在委員資料裡面的原因是什麼我要再講104人力銀行的數據近三年你知道整體的勞動市場已經供小於需求了供給小於需求 職缺多於求職者 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11336.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11360.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
企業要因應這種就業勞動力的結構上的轉變其實應該逐步的去開啟中高齡人才的門在這種狀況裡面你看得出來中高齡友善企業率與友善職缺率你看友善企業率從49變成54友善職缺率它其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11361.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11370.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
他已經盡量再友善了這個比例也增加了5%可是他提供出來的職缺只成長了4%所以這種狀況裡面45歲以上求職者的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11378.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11406.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
標示說我們要歡迎45歲以上來求職的企業的比例從113年49提升到114年的54%這個已經是專法通過了看起來他好像很重視中高齡的這個重要性了不過實際上在願意這個求採的招募資訊當中公開標注歡迎中高齡的職缺的仍然不到三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11408.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11433.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
然后仅有33%的企业会明确在求财的说明当中讲出说欢迎中高龄或二度就业这种友善其实是很难得到的专法过了其实也没有所以我们看得到调查的数据显示中高龄的族群平均每个月主动应征的人数在近三年成长了34.4% |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11436.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11439.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你看每個月成長了34.4%從112年的6.1萬人到114年的8.2萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11446.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11468.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這明顯的沒有反映到中高齡的勞產率就是說即便中高齡的勞工他已經比起過去更願意主動應徵學習但是呢這個東西有沒有對照到提供機會做明明就是工作職缺很多找不到人可是這些中高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11469.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11487.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
仍然在那裡因為年齡的歧視所以就找不到工作然後65歲以上的高齡者甚至被邊緣化然後中高齡每個月主痛應徵的人數三年內大幅成長但勞參率有改善嗎45到65改善一點多少點 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11494.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11500.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
成長多少啦4%那問題是雇主端聚用呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11501.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11524.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
其實從你剛才的數字可以看出兩件事情第一個中高齡願意求職的人數也在增加那有戰職缺的數字其實也有在增加那只是這兩個之間的增加當然我們覺得我們還有一些東西比例上還有落差對我們可以做得更好那裡面有幾件事情第一個是我們現在很重視比方說確實很多中高齡跟企業都跟我們說他們其實需要更多職務在設計的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11527.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11541.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那植物在設計的資源讓其實讓很多的職缺他可以更友善於實際上面遇到狀況因為他可能身體上面他比較難負重或者是各種在這個職場的情境裡面他需要多一點的幫忙所以你們的職業訓練的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11545.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11568.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
是不是要有一部分的資源甚至更大的資源要從訓練年輕人然後要播出來給中高齡甚至65歲以上所以你的政策上對應出來了嗎尤其是我們希望能夠把職業在設計的部分做得能夠更細膩因為不同的行業可能會有不同職業在設計的專業的know-how在你們的職業訓練裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11569.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11574.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
裡面你們的課程的改變中高齡的參與人數有成長嗎我剛說的職務在設計不是等同於職業訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11583.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11603.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那高齡者目前其實是有專班的那只是沒有 我就要問你說你專班的設計上有成長嗎服務的人次有成長嗎我們可以來再調一下相關的數字因為你講得很正確也很好聽可是我們我們可以來調我們必須要落實在執訓上面具體的課程上面參加的人次上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11604.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11630.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我們可以來調相關的數字但不管是職業訓練或職務再設計都希望我們藉由這些具體的方法可以媒合更多現在有就業意願的中高齡進入到其實是有意願開放給中高齡的這些職缺對我現在看你官方的統計主計總署在人力運用上面中高齡113年5月中高齡和高齡失業者未未遇工作機會所遭遇的困難你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11630.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11659.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
他们陈述的就是年龄限制大家对45岁以上甚至是将近65岁他们都有很大的年龄上的歧视所以真的是很困难然后大家企业也有固有的成见企业说欢迎中高龄会吓走年轻人但是我们看得到就是说年轻人认为这样的做法是加分的负面是极少的所以我们还看到2025年人资FBI调查也指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11660.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11684.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
僅招募40歲以下的求職者的企業平均要71.8天才能找到合適的人才如果你開放了40歲以上的求職者同時開放他平均可以縮短52天平均招募的天數縮短28%顯示僱用中高齡更能有效率的補足人力缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11686.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11700.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面 我們真的希望說依據你們自己的統計 中高齡及高齡統計你們也看到女性在中高齡現在因為她的再就業 沒人沒用 她只能從事什麼都能只能從事較低技術層次之類的 大概有七成 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11707.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11724.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
就低技術職類將近68.75%女性只能去做這種工作男性就以生產操作及勞力工124萬佔了42.1%最多女性以服務及銷售工作人員54.3萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11726.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11742.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
生產操作和勞力工女性也佔了48萬人所以我們看得到就是說中高齡七成都集中在低技術的職類代表他的門檻被拒絕真的是他想要再進入職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11743.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11771.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
真的就是被拒到他只能進入那個最低薪的勞動條件最差的所以這種狀況我們在一直講說你要去改變這個結構性或者是真的不符合企業所需人才上的問題你的職訓 你的職業的轉職的能力然後你的課程你未來要怎麼去設計一個更友善的這個都不容忽視 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11772.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11797.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
要檢驗要有數據要有KPI讓我們看得見我們現在看到是勞資雙方都有往中高齡這邊去禁用或者是去求職的意願當然我們也覺得在這個趨勢之下我們應該更大力的拿政策的資源來去推進這是我完全同意的我一開始就跟你講不是只有在僱用而是留用一開始我就跟你講你要留用他如果留用65歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11798.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11819.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
留用了以後 我有什麼獎勵 鼓勵應該是有 那你有什麼獎勵鼓勵政策 有我們有繼續在雇用的獎勵怎麼鼓獎勵獎勵也要人家實用 看得到 吃得到或者是真的可以造成誘因 而不是為不足道 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11820.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11850.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
啊什麼你說有有什麼 針對借齡退休的我們鼓勵雇主繼續雇用借退的勞工那獎勵12個月每個月一萬三千元的多少人次來申請113年度是2000餘2000餘案那一年65歲退休多少人每年65歲以上借齡退休的多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11854.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11870.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
不知道我們就是沒關係你去把它調查出來讓我們看一下這個政策的有效性需不需要再擴大如果有效的話需不需要再擴大OK好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員發言接下來請鄭天才委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11900.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11918.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
主席 請部長部長好這個原住民與非原住民的平均移民的落差一直都非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11920.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11942.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們就以去年來講 平均落差是7.54這個年齡如果我們從山地原住民 平均落差是9歲如果是男生 就男生而言 山地原住民是10.38歲的落差 平均移民 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11943.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11971.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
整體原住民是8.77這個平均裡面的落差在這樣一個情形之下所以我們相關的這些無論是這個公教警消軍人或是尤其是勞工這相關的這些潛意就會受到很大的落差的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11974.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12002.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
所以过去啊我们就政府机关都会重视唯独现在一直还没有完成的就是我们的劳工的部分我们看国民年金法第53条国民年金法定了很久了年满55岁的原住民一般是一般非原住民是65岁原住民就是55岁我们看这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12003.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12029.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
公务人员退休之前俯戏法也特别明定一般的公务人员是60岁就自愿退休原住民降为55岁就是有他的实际的年龄平均移民实际的落差的关系公立学校的教职员也是一样法律都这样定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12031.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12053.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
原住民在教職員公立學校教職員也是原住民身份者降為55歲就比一般的退休年齡可以降連農民退休儲金這是新的法例農民退休儲金條例本席在審查委會提案的時候針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12056.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12076.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
原住民的部分全國原住民跟身心障礙要不同的所以法律就明定要按照他的平均移民來去計算所以農民退休儲金條例的施行細則根據這個條例然後定了施行細則 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12078.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12103.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
也是要去七分全國原住民身心障礙的生命移民移民來去定定所以這個都是有一個已經有法律的依據了法律的可以可以參考所以這個部長所以我們原住民的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12104.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12129.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
在勞工的部分是不是也應該要比照來訂定請我們市長來跟委員報告剛剛委員提到那個國民年金的那個是原住民給付原住民給付那是一個津貼的性質是由原民會編列公務預算來發的那國保的老年年金也是原住民的部分也是跟平常人一樣都是在65歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12130.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12149.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
發給那在勞工的這個部分主要是原住民整個勞工經濟整體的保障我們覺得不只是保險包括就業促進跟社會津貼的這個部分那嚴明也跟我們一樣都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12151.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12177.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
慢慢人口在高齡化所以整個社會保險都是採 逐步提高青年年齡的機制那老保的部分我們已經有可以提前五年齡減額年金的機制那整個老年幾戶也不是用平均餘面來當基礎所以為了制度的公平跟財務的安定整個幾戶條件應該跟一般的人一樣因為我們沒有分族群那以上跟各位跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12179.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12202.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那個部長你支持剛才的同仁的說明嗎跟這位說明當然市長其實在講的確實是在整體政策上面的一些思考的點那其實從保險司或者是從我們在思考整體勞保年金的改革的 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12203.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12225.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那麼年輕整體的制度來說的確會一直要去顧及一個相關的橫平性尤其是一個比較完整機制的部分所以確實在這個基金的運作裡面比較沒有從身分別去做差別化的處理剛才你那一句話部長那一句話橫平性很重要就是要從橫平性 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12227.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12242.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
刚才的说明都没有横平性就是因为要横平所以要按照实际的情形我们就讲年龄他就有这么大的平均移民的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12244.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12267.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
按照現在的法律就不橫貧按照你勞動部所主管的這些法律就不橫貧跟我們說因為現在比較會有的討論比較是在青年年齡是不是要往更高來去拉所以對於要把某些部分的青年年齡要再往下降這件事情確實是需要比較多的考慮所以你對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12269.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12295.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
原住民跟非原住民的平均移民有这么大的落差毫无手感所以这个部分跟委员不是这样子的比方说我们在这个平均移民的问题上我在当委员的时候我们也很支持比方说透过原建法或等等的尽量的来让我们在原住民族的健康的状态或者是那个部长大家能够来努力那个已经 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12296.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12325.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
你那樣的說法已經最起碼10年以上都是這樣的說法啦而事實上我剛特別擠了這麼多的法例從國民年金法降為55歲公立學校教職員降為55歲我們的公務人員的法例也是降為55歲農民退休儲金的條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12327.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12329.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這是最新的法律這是上一屆才完成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12330.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12355.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我應該說的部分都是退休金的部分不是這個一樣的他不是社會保險跟勞工保險不是一樣還是看年齡跟文說明老保是你沒有年齡嗎還有年齡的規定跟文說明老保是社會保險我們在主條審查的時候再好好討論老保是社會保險然後剛才的退休金的部分有他在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12358.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12371.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
上面退休性質跟社會保險還是有不同的好我們在主條的時候再好好討論好謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言請陳盈委員發言請勞動部長跟勞保局白局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12388.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12417.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
請紅部長 白局長謝謝陳委員好部長好我們今天主要針對這個災暴法裡面申請職災失能年金的勞工朋友以及繼續投保勞保的權益來做討論那目前每年核定職災失能的給付件數有多少我們確認一下數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12432.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12446.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
兩千多啊 兩千一百八十九件我們花了快一分鐘兩千三百八十五件兩千三百八十五好 你要還我一點時間那個我統計了這個 那我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12451.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12471.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我統計了這個113年7月份到114年6月份核定件數大約是1595件我想請教一下部長你們這個核定率的公式是到底是怎麼樣因為我檢查了一下你們所有的核定率都破百職業傷害換算是111%職業病是162% |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12481.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12499.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
是這邊是你們的核定計算是怎麼樣因為104年開始10年都是這樣子我是有點看不太明白 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12500.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12524.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
委員好謝謝委員這邊指教這邊的核定件數包含核定給付跟不給付那上面如果是屬於給付的話是職災案件你講大聲一點我們的核定件數包含核定是職災的案件跟核定不是職災的案件所以那個就是那所以那個可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12526.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12556.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
所以就是你們收件就是送件總共的這個送件的申請的案有多少的意思嗎是 跟委員這邊做報告 陳儒委員這邊所提的如果以總件數這邊總計兩萬七千零九十八件那直災的案件就是兩萬四千一百九十件那其中就是兩萬七千零九八裡面扣掉兩萬四千一百九十裡面是核定不給付直災的案件所以這邊的核定率是百分之八十九點二七 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12557.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12566.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
好你們這樣寫很容易讓人家看不懂因為我們不通過就不通過了很少有核定就是會講核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12568.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12591.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我想我們可以在相關的表格把核定數怎麼去計算可以再做一個附註啦因為就是它等於是這個有幾副跟沒幾副有認定跟沒認定的部分其實它都把它包含在核定數裡面所以是母數你們要寫清楚一點不然就看起來很怪啦是我們在呈現的方式上可以再加註一下這個核定數的意思到底這件職業災害有沒有被核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12592.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12605.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
你說有 每一件都有有核定不通過跟核定有通過但是我們通常很少會這樣講就是核定確認你是什麼處置的意思那我們要申請經費也是有沒有核定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12607.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12627.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
通過都是大部分是這樣嘛因為我不知道這個有沒有什麼你們所謂的勞動專業術語在裡面我是不知道但是我認為我們在這個表格呈現的幅度上面我覺得我們可以把它呈現更清楚因為我如果這樣提出來那個部長在當委員的時候我不曉得你們有沒有會一下就看明白還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12629.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12647.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
好就這個提醒一下那我再請教就是說那個職災失能給付勤領職災年金的比例大概是多少你們有統計嗎跟委員做報告如果以今年的前9個月來講的話我們的年金勤領的比例大概是76%76%好 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12653.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12677.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那因為這個職貸失能年金它是分為這個完全失能 嚴重失能跟這個部分失能那完全失能及嚴重失能都已經到喪失全部工作能力那也因此可以至少領到七成五成到七成及五成的這個月頭保薪資本期要關切的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12679.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12707.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
損失五成的工作能力但是只能勤領兩成的月頭保薪資那這一群部分失能的勞工朋友每年大概多少人然後佔領佔勤領職災年金的比例是多少該委員這邊做報告目前勤領部分失能年金的話目前還有在續領的是22人就22人而已嗎那沒有沒有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12708.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12727.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
因為說到這邊我大概其他的人可能他選擇領一次那就是98年之前98以後他可以選擇如果說他的失能程度在我們的失能年金裡面有分完全失能、嚴重失能跟部分失能98年是個分水嶺嘛那說到這 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12732.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12748.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
因為說到這邊我特別回想就是說在當年我們在修災保法條文討論到最後只剩下最後一個爭議點就是職災勞工如果有其他社會保險權益是不是會受影響而不能請領 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12750.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12773.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
當時本席擔任召委那時候我們有特別要堅持說一定不能受到影響否則就需要再協商那還好當時也謝謝勞動部有從善如流那到今天就是說他們的這個勞健保權益勞工的勞健保權益都還在那也看到勞保局有特別強調這群勤領20%的部分失能年金者 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12775.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12803.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
將來都還可以領到這個老保的這個老年年金那局長是不是當時您是保險司的司長相信這些都記憶猶新啦我應該都沒有講錯啦好那但是我同時我也發現在債保法的58條規定被保險人或者其受益人因為不同保險事故同時請領本保險或其他社會保險年金給付時 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12805.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12821.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
本保險年金給付金額因考量被保險人或其受益人的請領年金給付數目金額總類及其他生活保障因素予以減額調整減額調整比率50%為上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12828.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12854.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那這個問題在於就說你們的這個職災保險的QA解釋請領執職災保險失能年金與勞保老年年金給付的合計金額如果超過職災保險失能年金所採的平均月投保薪資數額本局將依規定自其原領職災保險失能年金辦理扣減 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12855.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12871.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那我們從這個裡面的這個文字義來看喔到底你們是給人家扣多少是到底是扣多少因為如果如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12872.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12890.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
老保老年年金他本來可以領到這個月頭保薪資的50%那他勢必就是超過這個職災失能年金的20%所以最後他到底可以領到這個合併的年金是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12891.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12918.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
是 跟委員做報告 也非常謝謝委員當初在災保法那時候立法的時候 我們除了擴大家保的一個對象 那針對脊腹部分也從保障勞工的權益部分做了一些突破所以像委員剛才提到 在災保法58條裡面 針對如果被保險人他發生不同的保險事故 像剛才提的他可能領了職災的失能年金 那之後老年的時候他一樣可以領老年年金 那這兩份年金加起來的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12919.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12942.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
不要高於他在栽保這部分的投保薪資平均投保薪資舉例來說如果以植栽部分他領的是一個兩萬塊那在那個老年年金部分假設加起來是三萬塊那這樣兩萬加三萬就會變成是五萬塊可是他的栽保部分的平均投保薪資也許是四萬五那我們就會做那個差額部分就不給付 因為如果我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12943.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12959.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
用一個薪水就是說這個薪水三萬塊的來計算的話那像這樣子失能的部分兩成他領六千嘛那這個老闆年金的部分他要領一萬五加起來是兩萬一但是你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12960.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12988.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
好像就直接是就給人家扣一半那個失能那個失能兩成的部分你們就直接扣一半如果他的災保的投保薪資沒有超過剛才的兩萬一那在領老年的時候我們不會扣他災保的錢確定不會扣嗎不會那委員剛才提到的那個個案是不是有什麼特殊的狀況是不是可以容我們會後可以跟委員這邊做請教因為他看起來是有些失能的就你們都直接把人家扣掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12990.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13008.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
委員是不是可以容這一部分就像剛剛講原則部分我們去做一個處理那如果個案部分的個案狀況我們來了解我想是這樣我是特別想要強調就是說可以領執在失能年金20%的勞工朋友他的工作能力損失至少超過50% |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13010.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13034.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
所以即使他今天重回職場了他的這個投保薪資可能比受傷前還低那幾年過去了就算這個平均月投保薪資是採計最高5年的平均可以領的這個老年年金還是比這個不發生職災當時可以領的少了很多然後你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13035.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13049.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
如果再扣這個職災失能年金的額度這樣是不是一種變相對於這個職災勞工的懲罰因為就是你們就扣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13053.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13070.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
因為原則是這樣但是實際上面的操作當然個案部分我想請委員再讓我們了解一下個案那我請我們勞保局來跟委員辦公室來了解一下這個實際的個案狀況是怎麼樣因為其實不管他的這個勞保局 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13072.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13093.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
他們的投保薪資是多少本席是認為就是說在職債失能年金的部分其實一毛錢都不該扣這個部分我要請你們特別去研議不管你們換算薪水是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13094.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13118.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那到底有沒有超過怎麼樣的總額其實本席都認為那個都不應該扣那因為同樣的道理這個職災傷病給付每年都超過五萬五千人這裡面其實也有很多我們的原住民的勞工朋友還有以及部長一直非常關心的這個外籍的勞工朋友們所以他們的職災其實至少高於全產業的四成 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13120.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13146.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以尤其是這幾年外籍的勞工朋友他們是更高的我想說我們都很關心不論是種族 國籍 年齡 性別這麼多的勞工朋友是不是都有回到職場以及回去以後投保薪資到底有沒有受影響所以這個部分我也特別提出來針對剛剛特別講的職債私人年金的部分我希望你們可以重新來研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13148.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13171.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我們來評估一下 好不好對 當然就是相關的做法那我覺得可能有需要我們 也需要更多的個案然後我們透過這些個案來檢視它的實際的狀況然後來看看我們的原則是不是要來做一些調整好 謝謝那你們是大概一個月可以兩個月好不好兩個月 好 謝謝好 謝謝陳盈委員發言接下來請賴世保委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13182.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13209.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
謝謝主席一起各位先進有請勞動部的洪部長請洪部長代言好是 洪部長你好那麼關於今天談到大家要給老闆 勞保這個挹注每年要1000億以上你應該很高興的我們都要持續爭取啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13210.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13236.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
都要持續爭取給你錢你當然這個眼睛閉起來就是可能說因為我要扛我還你呢那不是嗎還是什麼我們都有還我們我們都還在爭取啊對不是我們現在我原本就提案說最少給你1000億難道你還有點猶豫主要是我們我們現在其實金額都我們現在爭取都是超過1000億啦1000億太少這兩年其實都超過1000億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13239.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13257.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我們都超過1000億所以我們希望爭取的金額是當然都是可能是要超過1000億所以你爭取多少明年的公務預算其實是1200億然後再加上特別條例特別條例裡面100億所以一年大概可以高達大概1500差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13257.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13285.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我們都希望能夠持續在爭取因為確實勞保的財務確實勞保的財務都需要大家的幫忙請教一個問題勞工退休那個字體的6%這一部分是我看了一下勞工真的只有字體這個是政府鼓勵6%的部分是免稅的那這個比例很低大概16%不到那這個原因你要不要講原因到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13286.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13293.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
各位說明其實我們在基金在運用的收益其實這20年平均起來都是大概6%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13294.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13315.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那其實字體比率比較低 如果仔細去看的話其實比較高收入的勞工他比例就蠻高的那低收入的勞工 薪資比較低收入的勞工他比例就比較低那個東西就是很簡單的一句話就打死了就可以回答了嘛請這裡都沒搞 又爬冠你拿6%出來來 我就問你一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13319.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13348.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
一般的勞工退下來勞保加勞退一個月大概多少錢現在嘛現在但是因為現在勞保的勞保年金其實時間在還20年而已嘛不不不這可以大概你隨便Google一下都有這個數字大概多少勞保加勞退就等於是勞工退下來對他的生活的保障到底保障到哪裡大概兩萬多吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13349.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13366.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
兩萬多啦 加起來大概兩萬四左右那你知道現在一般的生活會要多少錢當然 你會說 你看怎麼活啦但是我們就平均嘛平均 我看你現在平均要三萬 起跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13368.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13383.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
所以對於就是說以現在的制度對於勞工的退下來的保障是不夠的這也就是為什麼6%來講的話一些收入比較低的根本就欠一家人不夠 被拔光所以我剛剛講 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13384.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13412.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我們勞保加勞退就等於是我一個勞工他推下來的一個所得大概兩萬四左右 兩萬四 兩萬五目前啦 因為很多勞保的年資還沒有到那麼長所以目前的數字是這樣那生活費 以目前的生活費大概三萬到七條所以這個很明顯中間有一個gap大概有八千塊左右啊你再加一個勞動等於勞工的大家長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13413.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13433.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我們全台灣的勞工人數多少超過千萬差不多一千萬左右有人說九百多 超過千萬一千萬 你等於是一千萬勞工的大家長你要不要站在你的立場怎麼樣讓勞工退下來他的生活又暴漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13434.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13447.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
跟文說明其實第一個我們當然很希望更大的程度的來鼓勵勞工的自體因為目前以基金的收益率6%的話其實等一下你說6%不願意講 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13449.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13465.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
8月31號公佈的勞退基金只有4.78勒還比舊資的少舊資的8.19勒還有融退基金6.33同樣一個Umbrella你們在操作的差賊薪資的勞退其實是不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13467.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13469.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
公佈到最新的9月底為止 新制是7.69就制是12.56為什麼都輸給舊制 為什麼新制要輸給舊制 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13482.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13503.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
差一截大概幾乎一半啦為什麼我們對於基金的操作是公平對待所有金管的基金然後我們追求的是長期投資的效益那所以我們來看長期投資的效益其實我們就我們新智跟舊智其實收益都差不多你看舊智12點多什麼差不多12點多跟7點多差距什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13506.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13518.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我跟委員報告一下如果來看近10年舊制7.92國保是7.69 新制也差不多這樣那如果15年其實反而舊制是6.85國保是7.23新制15年的話15年是 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13524.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13534.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
等一下喔 15年是6.91也是比舊制好但是大概都差不多因為我們長期的消費是你聽好 你剛剛講的矛盾喔我要講最新的你講舊制12點多新制呢7點多差這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13542.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13556.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
跟委員說明因為這真的都要看比較看長期啦所以整體長期平均的話大概都是6% 7%啦這樣子所以這個這個不啦我問部長啦你有沒有什麼具體的做法或者政治的宣政策上的宣宣示讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13558.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13581.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
讓勞工的自體的比例提高跟文說明第一個我們當然現在我們其實也在研議那要怎麼樣來讓勞工的自體提高因為這個6%的假設6%以上7%的收益率的確會可以對於勞工的退休生活是有幫助的那要不要把6%提高到8%只是其實我覺得這都是可以考慮的因為這是免稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13584.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13607.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
因為這個是免稅的部分我想我們都願意來跟其他部會來做討論但是第一個事情是的確我們看到比例提高重點是現在是確實比較低薪的勞工他自體的意願比較低我覺得我們要先克服這一段因為的確比較低薪的勞工他是更需要這件事情的那就是如何讓加薪嘛那你要怎麼提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13608.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13624.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
除了加薪我們也希望能夠再提出更多的誘因比方說如果勞工願意自提的話我們可以給他什麼樣子再多的誘因的協助我們也希望朝這個方向來提你知不知道我們現在勞工的平均薪資多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13626.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13630.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
目前如果老保的話大概3.6%總出的主計長公佈了4萬8平均4萬8結果你們是中位數據有3萬6 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13642.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13668.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
然後退下來就全部加起來 不然都加起來老退加老保兩萬四你雞派鬼啦老公退休的請問你一千萬個老公退休老公有多少 有多少人每年嗎有沒有這個數字退休老公有多少人可能要看一下新舊制的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13670.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13686.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我就是一個啦 你要想辦法你站在勞工的大家長的位子上想辦法大家是勞有所保啦對不對這個老了退下來的我這個最少 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13687.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13704.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
minimum的生活能夠維持嘛剛才講老退家老保只有兩萬四生活的基本要三萬二最低三萬二我還沒跟你講到三萬五對不對而且你平均薪資就是三萬六這個東西來講來講的話是差很多的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13704.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13727.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
跟我說這也是為什麼我們連續10年調漲最低工資從原本最低工資2萬左右那現在已經接近到3萬那這也是其實都是希望對於相對比較辛苦的勞工朋友能夠從政府的角度來幫他們多幫忙的部分這是為什麼連續10年做最低工資調升的很重要的原因我就講說你要每年要1500億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13730.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13746.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我希望你plus把6%再往上調去找財經部這個我在財委會裡面我們都可以支持對不對這6%我們要誘引提高到10%可以嗎我覺得我們來評估跟研議吧這個事情這個方向一個月可以出來嗎一個月兩個月好不好兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13750.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13759.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
把6%那個那個天花板再往上掀up to 10%好不好好謝謝賴世保委員發言接下來請邱振軍委員發言主席好啊我們請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13781.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13801.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
各位好 部長好關於這個勞保我們這個入法的這件事情我想請問一下你對於勞保撥補法治化這個部分呢您這個整體提案大概有三個部分那我大概有三個方向就是說政府要負最後的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13802.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13813.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
入法還有政府每年撥補至少1000億入法那基金報酬每打6%國庫來補差現在看起來你們的好像有其他意見是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13815.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13841.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
跟文說明當然對於撥補這個概念把它入法我想我們不會反對但是對於要有一個固定的金額入法這件事情因為它牽涉到財政紀律法的第7條所以在這個如果要固定金額入法這上面就會跟財政紀律法第7條會有漢格主要是這個部分那其他的呢那針對每年要6% |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13842.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13859.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
的部分因為這個勞保基金其實是這個確定給複製那在確定給複製上所以比較不是剛剛我講說好像是收益率沒有達多少來撥比較不是這個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13861.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13888.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
對 但是我們現在今天錄這個法只是希望讓勞工安心這個是最基本的當然也減少你的壓力可是我剛剛我想到一件事情我看到就是說今年6月底我們勞保的潛藏的負債是13兆5632億比起前一年11兆8628億增加了1.7兆那以按照目前的撥補方式也只是延後破產而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13889.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13914.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
對不對跟委員說明第一個因為潛藏負債因為這是一個社會保險所以本來就有世財互助的性質那潛藏負債的原因是因為過去我們其實這個費率並沒有足而提撥會慢慢的增加所以在各國的這個公共的基金裡面社會保險的基金裡面都會有潛藏負債的狀況問題它每年都多這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13916.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13932.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
對 所以都會有潛藏負債的狀況所以這也是為什麼我們持續的在做撥補而且這兩年我們撥補的力道甚至都已經超過1000億你現在除了撥補你現在除了這個你有想到其他方法嗎第一個是撥補第二個是我們其實這幾年我們在基金的投資的效益其實都相當不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13934.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13960.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那甚至去年高多的話到16% 18%以上因為每次討論到這個勞保破產的問題勞工朋友都會非常擔心那當然他們擔心是不是會影響他的權益那要解決勞保破產的問題不是增加收入就是減少支出那現在看起來減少支出的部分原則上你們都不太敢碰那增加收入的部分除了每年提高基本工資跟撥補之外有準備調高保費嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13962.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13988.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
确实强化保费当然是各界其实会提出来的其中一个方向可是这的确牵涉到劳工的权益跟雇主的权益所以这部分当然我们还需要更多的社会的讨论但是这个也是一种方式因为基本工资提高保费就会增加那当然我们增加几十亿也是不错也是增加至少也是一种方式那就是说我在想就是说您在这个位置上 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13989.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14004.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
您會在你任內提出整套的改革方法嗎除了撥補之外我想其實跟委員說明對於維持勞保基金的水位那我們其實這幾年很努力包括爭取撥補是其中之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14005.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14032.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
也包括剛才說基金的投資的效益那我們其實最近也都有蠻亮眼的基金投資的效益那其實也給基金其實蠻多的因為你這個潛藏負債一直在提高我認為他不是好事啊對不對雖然是雖然是各國都有這種潛藏的負債他其實並不會一次的實現因為他也會說你可以請領相關的條件如果你沒有到可以請領的條件其實也不能請領潛藏負債是指說以現在所有的這個被保險的狀況假如當下 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14035.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14063.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
他當然不會一次的請領的話才是這個潛藏負債的狀況所以他其實概念上面當然我覺得我們要非常非常的留意而且要預作準備我們也要預作準備我再問我們勞動部公開國際勞動的統計結果之後看起來台灣被比喻為過勞之島這個說法不是讓得虛名去年2020年台灣的年工時2030小時是全球第五比日本還高 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14064.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14082.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那在亞洲的部分是排名第二那今年五月我們國民黨跟民眾黨在民進黨的全面反對之下共同通過的這個還價於民至少把過去把被民進黨砍掉的價還給勞工朋友那現在勞團持續呼籲特休的部分也要進行改革這件事你有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14084.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14098.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
我想勞工團一直都對於特休有這個天數上面的一些期待你認為這個數字有沒有修改的必要就是有沒有在進步的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14099.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14118.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
第一個我想先跟委員補充在數據上面其實台灣的工時應該不是全球第五高因為這個數字這個表格並不是把所有全世界所有的國家都列出來但是的確我們認為台灣的工時怎麼樣可以做得更好我們跟隔壁 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14119.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14135.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
的國家比就好了像日本韓國嘛對不對如果是全時的工時的話其實台灣的工時統計下來並沒有比日本韓國來的高如果是全時我們這個原因是因為台灣部分工時的比例比較低就是以勞動市場來講台灣最接近的是南韓嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14136.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14162.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那全職工作比例相近兼職的比例也相近如果全職比全職的話我們的工時是比南韓來的低一些的我們算起來2024年台灣是2030小時南韓是1859小時怎麼會比他低呢如果是全職來看的話去年113年每週的經常性工時的話台灣是41.5韓國是42.8我說以全職來看如果是全職比全職的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14167.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14187.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我們現在講全部啊對所以這也是為什麼我們說因為台灣的部分公司你不要把它拆開來講你們都找你們對你們有利的數字來講所以我說如果是全時比全時的話你不能這樣比你這個是整體的意思但是我可是跟委員說我不是說這樣台灣的公司就不用做出改革不是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14187.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14212.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我跟你大概講一下就是說南韓勞工這個一進公司就有特休台灣等半年才會給三天這就是公司差距的第一個來源那南韓用高額罰款實時稽查逼企業縮短工時那台灣的這個罰金太小稽查太弱公司自然降不下來那南韓勞工有合法權利可拒絕雇主要求加班強迫加班會 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14213.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14235.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
被認為是職場霸凌或非法命令台灣名義上可以拒絕但是在實務上幾乎是無法拒絕的台灣通常是主管一句話今天要趕工就變加班了也就是說韓國政府讓韓國勞工有拒絕權但是我們台灣在政府的力道薄弱的狀態下勞工變成被迫的文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14236.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14258.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
第四個 南韓把過勞史視為國家責任我們台灣把過勞史視為個案處理南韓工會參與率是14%大企業工會非常強勢談判的結果 資方通常都會讓步但是台灣工會參與率只有7%而且只有勞動部常常站在資方的立場去思考問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14259.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14274.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
還有台灣的稽查力度是南韓的十分之一啦我想這些都是問題那部長這不是統計的問題是國家施政的一個差距啦我認為是希望部長在這邊呢能夠承諾來改善這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14276.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14302.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
跟委員說沒有其實還是有說數字上面的比較是一回事但的確我們認為在工時的問題上面其實有一些我們還可以在更多努力的地方比方說我們其實也很希望接下來擴大其實對於可能很多的工會或者是簽這個團體協約怎麼樣簽一個比較高於法令然後能夠對於勞工的工時更有保障或更多考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14303.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14318.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這部分我們希望更多研議部長我再問最後就是說勞團呼籲我們這個包含特休這個地震要更快上限要提高另外改善勞動條件提高勞參率就是缺工的問題要解決才不會這個因 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14319.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14338.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
因為缺能而不能放假部長會朝這三個方向來進行嗎第一個關於缺工的問題我想我們很認真的研議那特休呢近期其實也因為在考慮到缺工部分產業缺工所以我們也在整體的跨國勞動力政策上面做出了一些精進跟調整那第二個我覺得在關於特休我覺得我們可以整體性的來思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14339.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14365.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
所以你們是支持的嗎我們可以整體性的來思考這個事情你支持嗎 你先講嘛我想從勞工的角度當然都會希望特休提高但是當然我說就政策來說的話我們願意來做整體性的來思考這部分有沒有空間 有多少空間那部長多久可以回答我三個月好不好好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14373.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14376.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
謝謝邱政軍委員發言接下來請王紅薇委員發言好謝謝主席麻煩那個勞動部部長請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14396.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14425.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
保委員好好 部長好今天其實主要是我們要針對勞保條例我們在立法院有很多的修正案的版本那剛才也有委員提到就是說確實我們現在以這個勞退來講勞保老年年金的這個請領確實是金額比較低那以現在其實有一個比較好的趨勢也就是能夠領兩萬元以上的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14426.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14454.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
这几年都开始在增加但是事实上就说对于广大劳工来讲他即使月领2万元真的比基本工资都低非常非常的多但是从这个比例的上升比如说以去年12月底来讲就是勤领的年金每个月月领2万元以上的已经可以达到将近一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14455.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14472.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
而這個情理年金越增加當然也代表我們的就是這個年金大家在講的說勞保的一個潛在的負債的一個風險那麼當然也使得說這個可能會提前破產的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14473.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14497.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
但是呢我们这一次的修法就是想要安定我们所有广大劳工他们的心情不要认为说有一天他可能呢他的年金劳保年金他就都没有办法领到所以我想再确定一下以我个人来说我对于劳保条例的修法主要是两大方向一个就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14498.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14513.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
把撥補勞保法制化這個剛才部長說願意嗎我們是支持撥補勞保法制化另外一個 民定政府負最後的支付的責任這個部長也同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14514.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14542.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
政府付最後支付責任是現在本身的政策那如果要把它放入到條文裡面當然要放在條文裡頭我覺得這個就把它法治化另外就是每三年檢討勞保的財務這個應該也沒有問題那現在剛才您特別講就是說你同意法治化但是並不同意說要一定的金額一定的金額恐怕就是還很著每一年政府財政的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14543.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14572.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那我想請問部長有沒有想過一個問題也就是說把這個撥補勞保把它法治化的這個過程裡面它的裁員從何而來從何而來譬如說我們現在政府做長照長照就有裁員包含菸酒的這個規費跟稅收這個合理嘛就是長照的裁員來自於菸酒的稅收 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14573.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14589.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
那以我們未來如果把它法治化之後有沒有想過它的裁員可以從哪裡你有沒有跟財政部或主計處去討論一下根本說明的確這其實也各界的朋友在倡議 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14591.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14612.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
第一個是其實對於可能潛在有可能的來源有些人比方有些人講到營業稅有些人講到是不是主權基金那有些人講到是不是有些外匯存底的可能我覺得這些可能可以挹注財源的做法我想我們當然相關的研議我講我們都是非常正面的看待這些狀況老蔣 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14614.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14638.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
讲裁员是有点困难固定裁员比如说最近健保的补充保费就轩然大波因为它动到ETF那种小资族的ETF健保保费不外乎就是从费率提高另外就找一个裁员老讲我觉得主权基金跟外汇存底都是第一个主权基金在哪里还不晓得 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14638.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14662.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
外匯存體中央銀行不會同我倒是覺得你們可以去跟財政部或者是金管會去討論一下證交稅證交稅我不是要把提高證交稅的稅率剛剛下面有人笑我不是要提高證交稅的稅率但是當股市非常好的時候比如說你知道我們光是10月份證交稅超過300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14664.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14679.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
就超过300亿当然今年是比去年同期是少的今年因为有台美关税的这个扰动但是呢因为证交税我们这几年常常税收超征都来自于征交税的贡献 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14681.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14698.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
因為你股市好代表你的經濟好嘛代表你的金融市場好嘛那如果在他好的時候你提撥其中一定的比例挹注到我們的勞保基金我覺得是可以去想的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14699.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14717.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
方法就像菸酒稅菸酒稅也沒有固定說每年一定大家一定要抽菸一定要喝酒沒有那也會希望大家健康啊少抽菸少喝酒他就向下來了他確實是浮動的他確實是浮動的但是他是可以去做考慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14719.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14741.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我覺得你什麼外匯存底 老師說我剛才是說有人在提是 沒有錯當然你說營業稅 營業稅當然就營業稅也是當然交易很好的時候也是代表整個的經濟比較好的一個狀況所以我剛才講在金融市場你知道其實我們的衛福部最大的錯誤是 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14743.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14763.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
它動到有關於補充保費動到那個股息 股利因為它只有2萬塊2萬塊就變成你是往小資族去開刀那當然引起極大的反彈所以我基本上增加稅稅率不用提高因為你提高的話不知道有多少人來跟你抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14764.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14782.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
可是如果當這個證券市場比較好的時候可不可以提撥一些比例我覺得這是可以去想的方向如果我們要把它提撥法治化的時候好我看到我們的主席站起來了好謝謝可以去想謝謝王宏威委員發言接下來請徐欣寧委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14792.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14795.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
謝謝主席本席請財政部國庫署的主密羅主密 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14816.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14839.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
你麦克风对对对我也好好请问主秘本席请教你劳工保险是不是国家办理的强制性社会保险是的是吗对那既然是国家办理的强制性社会保险所以政府是不是就应该负起最终支付责任这不就是国家应有的承诺吗是吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14839.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14856.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
对 我想但这个部分的话不是 你就回答是不是嘛因为你是国家这个办理的强制性社会保险那国家就应该负起最终支付责任是不是应该如此我的了解好像劳动部是朝这个方向在处理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14857.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14871.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
对那财政部的立场这国家要负这最终支付责任吗目前看起来应该也是朝这个方向在处理是吗对那本席也要特别强调你看金融机构都会对客户承诺 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14872.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14892.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
负最终支付责任我们中华民国政府不能够一直躲躲藏藏畏畏缩缩不敢负责所以这个最终责任入法是我们政府对劳工最低的承诺它不是代价而估的税出经费那本席想接着再追问财政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14894.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14908.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
在報告中我看你們今天的報告你們一直強調最終責任入法的預算成本但你們有沒有算過如果入法之後帶來的社會效益財政部有沒有算過有沒有去考量過這個部分還是勞動部考量那我請部長 部長順便請您請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14923.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14941.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
部長我想還是既然您上來我也請教你我想您這個勞動部的報告裡講說開放的態度但是我好像有聽到您今天的答覆就是您支持也認同政府負最終支付責任我不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14943.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14969.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
你是敢講負反對我不是敢講我跟委員說明現在政策上政府就是負最終支付責任也因為我們有負最終責任的想法所以這幾年我們才很大力的做撥補撥補的力道越來越大所以既然如此那為什麼遲遲不入法不只是意願我們也有時機的行動那今天委員在大院要來審議入法我想就是我們非常非常願意開放性的來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
14970.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
14988.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
这个最终支付责任的概念而且既然您说现在已经具体行动入法是让我们的劳工们吃下一个定心丸是所以我说我们并不反对这样做那因为目前的政策的立场我们就是政府负最终责任这是非常清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
14989.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15013.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
这不是口号所以我们希望入法未来不管谁执政所以我说我们用开放的很正向的态度来看这个立法院相关的审议那我们会提出我们在文字审定上面的意见财政部的主密他说那你们劳动部有没有去考量过也算过我们如果入法之后我们可以带来的社会效益部长您发表一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15015.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15033.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
您是照顾所有劳工的跟委员说明第一个其实入法当然代表的是一个政府态度的承诺稳定民心这是一个稳定承诺这个效益就非常好但是实际上面我们还是在做比方说 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15034.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15055.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
就我們的工作來說我還是必須持續的大力的跟行政院跟組總來爭取這個撥補那我們還是必須要很實際的來怎麼樣來提高我們在基金投資的效益這是實際行動的部分所以我們要對社會有一個態度的表達也要在實際行動上面要有明確的斬獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15056.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15073.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
劳工们都希望您的所有的这个为他们争取的要让他们对制度有信心当然所以入法之后不仅是稳定民心也让他们对政府对制度有信心更重要可能可以降低这种 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15074.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15097.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
挤兑领取的压力减少这些动荡如果我们这个过去执政党民进党政府一直的在讲哇老保年金快破产快破产其实是造成很多他们的一个恐慌那你如果到一个程度他们这个整个都提早退休然后大家这样子来挤兑其实这个对社会也不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15098.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15115.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
當然我們不希望發生我們一起來努力讓我們這個勞保年金就是勞工保險的我們可以這個入法而且政府入這個附最終我想這是朝野可以一起合作的議題謝謝許新英委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15128.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15153.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
秦宏部長黃委員好部長好 部長我先就剛剛委員有特別垂詢就是說我們勞保其實在之前你們就已經有講過政府一定是負最終的責任是這個從以前到現在就是這樣子態度上是 做法上也是就都是這樣子對 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15154.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15175.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
所以我希望就是說那未來也希望朝野能夠有一個共識如果未來真的要入法的話如果真的入法其實這個應該是大家都有共識的就是政府負最終的一個責任那另外部長我想請教就是說我們現在的這個勞工退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15176.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15201.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
退休金這個有分三大就是說一個是勞保一個是勞退一個是自行投資那這個有關這個勞工自己提撥6%的這個部分之前很多人希望就是說政府是不是也要鼓勵勞工來自行提撥這個6%那我們看到現在目前為止就是有超過85%的勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15204.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15219.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
是沒有自提沒有這個自己提撥那這樣子的話我們這個勞動部這樣要怎麼樣來鼓勵勞工確保未來退休的生活能夠更穩定是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15219.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15238.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
可以自己来提拨这个6%甚至我们之前也在提到就是说那劳工如果自己提拨那政府是不是鼓励也加就是加码我不知道说部长您针对这一部分怎么样去鼓励劳工可以自行提拨 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15241.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15261.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
跟文說明的確現在整體現在總體的數字來看看起來字體的比例沒有到很高但是如果仔細去分析的話可以看到相對比較高所得勞工他字體的比例就高很多那這當然有幾個原因第一個原因是因為這個其實我們現在在整個薪資勞退 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15261.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15274.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
的投資的效益上面大概都超過6%幾%其實這就整體來說從定存的角度來說這其實效益都是很不錯的所以其實高收入老公他覺得這個對他來講是有幫助他就願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15276.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15301.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
可是的確對於比較低薪的勞工他就會比較多的考慮他生活上面的負擔等等所以我們其實現在也在研議那怎麼樣子我們覺得政府應該多出一點資源那怎麼樣子來鼓勵或者是來刺激其實勞工願意自體的意願尤其是比較低薪的勞工因為按理來說其實低薪的勞工其實是需要更多的幫助的因為低薪的勞工他按照他現在的這個勞退的繳納的狀況他其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15305.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15329.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
在退休以后他还是会比较还是比较辛苦的所以其实照理来说应该是更更帮助大家所以这也是为什么我们也看到立法院有一些党团那有提案比方说如果愿意自提的话那是不是政府要补一趴或者是什么的那我说这个各种方法我想我们都愿意来考虑那你们有朝着这个方向去思考吗这个请 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15331.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15353.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
報告委員 那有關這個鼓勵自體的部分那我們已經有在做一些研議和規劃那我們希望說用更多的這個宣導的宣達的方式我覺得宣導應該不好如果有用的話從以前你們就是希望勞工能夠自體6%應該就有用了那為什麼還有85%的勞工沒辦法自體 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15355.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15376.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
所以我觉得你用宣导的方式我觉得是没有用那是不是可以用更积极的方式就像刚刚部长讲的比如说劳工他自提1% 2% 3%那政府是不是可以鼓励就鼓励性质的比如说也加码加码1% 2% 3%这样子可以这样做吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15377.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15390.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
跟委員說其實很坦誠的說從勞動部角度我們當然都不反對政府怎麼樣加碼可是這的確牽涉到現在接下來他也要有裁員那在現在整個中央政府的財政狀況第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15393.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15416.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
目前整个中央政府财政的预度也大幅的降低所以我觉得我们愿意来跟组总来争取我觉得你们应该也要去试算一下就是说如果这个劳工自己提拨的话那鼓励性质比如说加1%那这样子到底会增加多少的预算我觉得应该可以去试算我们可以来做一些相关的计算对 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15417.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15436.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那另外就是說也有這個譬如說他自體6%的話那我們現在看到就是說每月薪資自體6%那這個當年度是可以結稅就不列入當年的這個薪資所得課稅可是等他要退休要領取的時候就會再合併計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15438.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15464.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
所以是不是也可以从另外一个角度去看关于我们这个劳工朋友自提的这个部分是不是可以有这样子的一个免于扣缴所得税的这样子鼓励的方式我觉得你们应该也可以朝这个方向去做现在已经免税对呀这个是当年度免税嘛那等你要退休要领的时候就会合并计算嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15467.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15477.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
其實應該不太會去達到這個部分對基本上應該就是免稅的這6%是免稅但如果要把這個免稅的額度6%再往上這當然就要跟財政部討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15479.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15499.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
所以我这边是不是可以请部长针对这一部分比如说我们劳工朋友自提6%那未来也许这个自提上限到10%那这个是不是可以免所得税 课税我觉得这也许可以让劳工有所心动了 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15500.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15518.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那其实劳工的退休生活能够稳定我觉得这个也是我们劳动部应该要做的就像刚刚部长有特别提到其实大部分的劳工他退休退休之后的月退大多数都只有领一万多块大多数那如果像这样子的话 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15519.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15538.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
甚至有的還不到一萬塊那如果這樣子的話如果可以鼓勵他在年輕工作的時候他就自體這個自行提撥那未來他退休的生活應該可以更穩定那政府應該鼓勵鼓勵不是只有宣傳總是要有一些實質的行動我想我們應該可以規劃一些誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15541.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15566.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
可以嗎 我認為我們可以朝向規劃誘因的方式另外部長我再接下來請教就是說我們目前台灣的這個平均每年的工時這個2024年是2030個小時那比前一年就是2023年的這個工時2020個小時還要高那我想請教就是說這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15568.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15590.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這個平均每年的這個工時在世界各國的排名已經是排名第五那也許會有一樣一種狀況就是說其實在公司或者是這個勞工可能是缺工那大部分如果需要接單這個公司接單之後那需要勞工朋友可能要加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15591.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15613.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
去做这项工作加班嘛那我想请教部长就是说像这样子的一个我们现在有规定就是每周这个工作差不多40个就是40个小时嘛那其实有很多劳工朋友还要再加上加班那如果是这样子的话其实现在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15614.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15636.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
一般的傳產大家會覺得說缺工缺工很厲害那就從這些原本在工作的這些勞工就希望他們能夠加班那當然他的工時又增加了嘛那一般的新進可能這個社會新鮮人看到這家公司可能生意很好24小時都要加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15637.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15652.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
就不敢進來這間公司所以就變成說這個是一個惡性循環可能新進的勞工不敢進來這家公司因為要加班嘛每天都要加班原本就的這些勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15652.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15672.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
他可能工时就一直累进一直增加那也没办法得到一个适当的休息那我会觉得说这也是一个恶性的循环怎么样让这个企业主能够有新的能够得到这个好的人才进到公司来 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15672.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15688.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那又讓勞工一般的勞工能夠得到一個好的休息我覺得這個應該也是勞動部這邊要去好好的思考那怎麼樣讓我們的工時能夠再下降整體工時我不是說整週的就是說整體的工時 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15689.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15711.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
跟文文說明在公使的問題我想因為這幾天大家都看到這個統計第一個是說其實並不是我們並不是排在全世界所有國家的第五因為其實它整個拿進去排名的國家的數字並不是用全世界所有的國家第二個是的確我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15713.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15741.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我们之所以在数字上面会是这个成绩有一个蛮大的原因是因为我们的部分工时的比例比较低可是如果是全时工时比别的国家的全时比全时的话那整体来说我们的数字可能比邻近的亚洲国家都还要带来的低一点但我讲这个并不是说我们的工时就没有必要改善我觉得也还是有那刚刚有也有刚刚委员刚才讲的几个问题第一个问题确实有些部分的行业他目前他可能他整体的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15742.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15767.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
這個出口的狀況比較好所以他需要加班所以他有缺工所以這也是為什麼我們其實現在我們也在近期的一些跨國勞動力的政策上面我們做出了一些精進或者一些多的一些開放這也是其中一個原因那第二個是我們其實也持續的在提高最低工資那最低工資工資跟工時之間的關係也是我們也希望減少一些可能相對比較低薪的勞工他因為低薪所以他就覺得我我必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15768.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15792.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
更大程度的加班才有辦法到一定的收入這也是把最低工資這10年不斷提高的重要的做法這是實際上面的做法那當然我說針對工時的問題我想我們也可以再做一些檢討在做法上面有沒有可以再更大力度的比方說我們在希望大家去簽更好的團體協約更照顧勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15794.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15820.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
生活需求的團體學業的狀況下我們也願意來做但的確這個問題裡面裡面有些分是說統計的方式的形式也有方式實際作為的方式我們也都希望能夠更努力這樣子我希望就是勞動部就是照顧勞工勞工退休後的生活其實勞動部也是要去照顧所以我剛剛從幾個面向那希望說勞動部針對這個字體的這個部分應該要有更大的一個誘因好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15822.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15832.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
謝謝黃秀芳委員發言這個我們請委員會可以發便當 官員們也都辛苦先便發可以吃的就先吃那接下來請林倩琦委員發言好謝謝主席我們請勞動部長 洪部長請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15847.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15861.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
部長好我相信應該有不少的委員跟您討論過有關於國際勞動統計的警訊當然您這邊也有一些回應每一個委員有一些不同的解釋但是應該這幾年來除了去年的工時 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15866.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
15880.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
今年公布的去年的這個總共時2030相較於過去我們在2010試圖的降到1999小時之後呢今年這個2030.4那相對還是比較高那您剛才雖然也有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
15882.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
15901.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
我們第五名的這個成績就算不是全世界但是基本上還是所有被評鑑的這個國家那我們還是高居第五啦那亞洲第二但重點是我們是先進的經濟體但是公使的結構似乎還停留在一個高度仰賴加班的一個形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
15901.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
15914.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以這個其實我們當然整體來講是要做一個很大的調整但是這裡面您剛才其實也討論到業別製造業裡面我們這邊本席這邊有的資料是大概高達2125個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
15918.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
15946.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
電子組件甚至到2,258小時這樣其實還是有一個結構性的警訊缺工的問題如果沒有被改善勞動參與率跟停滯率還有特休制度就沒有辦法反映在現代勞動的負荷所以企業習慣也是用加班來取代增聘所以其實整體的環境還是有需要做一個很大的調整的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
15947.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
15976.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
所以本席今天要請教勞動部的是那目前的政策能不能改善這些結構性的問題比如說第一個勞動參與率的偏低我們要如何來提升呢台灣的勞動參與率長期大概在56到60%左右那麼低於日韓 歐盟跟美國那麼在當前企業的缺工情況下那我們似乎沒有辦法來提高薪資來吸引勞工回流 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
15977.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16002.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
雖然近幾年我們有最低薪資的一個調整但是整體吸引勞工回流這個部分似乎不是太並沒有說非常的吸引人但是取代的我們就用現有的人力來加班支撐這是似乎是在勞動市場常有的一個狀況那本席這邊要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16003.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16031.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
通常在產業的一個聘用裡面常常都是既有的勞工我們先加班我們再來考慮徵聘其實這樣一個現況是不是有機會做一個調整跟改變所以我想請教一下勞動部目前有沒有研議來提高中高齡或婦女參與的一個參與率那幾個例子像托育的友善工時或者是彈性工時的一個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16032.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16056.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
或者是預防中高齡勞工職場歧視的一個專法或指引還有協助女性職癌回流的補助與企業的一個誘因第二個部分是你們有沒有可能訂出提高勞動參與率的具體目標由勞動部這邊來訂定我想這個是最基本能夠改善缺工降低工時的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16057.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16080.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我們這幾年試圖這幾乎每一年我們都是可能都居高不下那個排名居高不下那這對於整個勞動市場來講也不是太健康那我們是不是考慮一下怎麼樣來制度性的做一個調整跟改變那這個部分是不是勞動部可以先做一個回應跟委員說明現在委員在簡報上面的這三個做法這我們都在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16081.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16100.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
不管是脫與有三有沒有什麼樣子的短中長期的一個具體目標比如說本席常常聽到我們可能對於兒少或者是對於青年目前都很具體的一些專法跟方案但是中高齡常常在社會上就變成是一個中高齡有專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16101.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16127.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
OK那所以你們的這個部分的訂定有沒有實際去了解到他對於這個職場上中高齡被歧視的一個相對的一個比喻中高齡也有就業專法那也在就業專法之後其實現在中高齡的計畫也在實施也算是有成效其實今天也就法規上也提出一個比較實際的誘因所以也希望就是說中高齡的回療除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16128.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16157.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
被歧視以外呢那另外就是說在實際的一個支撐上也希望能夠透過法律來做一個保障關於就業歧視的問題我想法規上面大概都是有的就是怎麼樣來遏止歧視的問題那勞動部就我們要怎麼讓他能夠更更落實更普遍就法規有了但是在實際的現況下如何再去我們希望讓他推動更有成效這也是要必須透過計畫跟資源是那所以你們有這個提高勞動力參與的這樣本席所講的以上三種的一個具體目標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16158.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16181.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
其實這幾年中高齡的勞參率的目標是有在提高的但我們認為還可以再更加強所以是不是可以給本席很具體的你們在提高的這個部分是不是有每年的數據或做法然後跟一個檢視的指標好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琪委員發言接下來請牛許廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16186.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16187.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
謝謝主席 紅部長有請有請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16196.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16224.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
祐元好部長午安 辛苦了今天大部分都討論勞保的最終幾負責任那我看起來這個草野難得有很好的共識那我們就希望這法案的審查可以順利來做進行不過本期最近也在研究勞保條例我發現一個問題今天花一點點時間跟勞動部長來做一下討論現在目前我們的勞工保險條例這個什麼時候開始起算跟什麼時候停止是不是基本上都是靠僱主也就是申報單位主動申報之後來開始發生效力勞保的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16225.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16254.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
是啊是嘛對不對好那問題來了就是說如果啊一個雇主跟他的勞工發生了一定的勞資糾紛然後就比如說惡意解雇那照理來講惡意解雇之後是不是大家都會去打比如說雇員關係存在之數嘛對不對那這個時間可長可短也不曉得會有多久但實務上來講我們如果現在以現行的勞保條例來處理的話也就是說我雇主認為我已經把他解雇了好不管這個過程法律是不是百分之百的這個合法可有沒有爭議反正我解雇我就辦了退保 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16254.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16281.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
好 那就來啦勞工認為說我是蒙受冤屈的我是一個不當解雇所以我要打雇用關係存在之訴但是中間啊你這個勞保被解掉萬一最後啊這個勞工打贏了這個雇用關係存在之訴表示這段是惡意解雇那請問這段時間勞保怎麼算跟委員說明第一個因為在勞工關係法裡面其實遇到像這樣爭議的話其實可以有這個假處分假處分的做法是可以存在著 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16283.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16297.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
現在是這樣子除非你去提甲組分而且可過或可不過很難確定嘛對不對現行的狀況你恐怕很難再去加保你被退保期間的保險所以你現在勞保條例裡面有講如果遇到我剛剛講這種狀況你可以打所謂的損害賠償責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16301.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16316.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
但問題是在這樣嘛這勞保的法律關係理論上它應該是它是社會保險嘛所以它應該是一個公法上的法定之債這樣子的一個概念可是你用你卻是用民事關係的這個僱傭跟損害賠償的邏輯去解決公法上的權利義務關係這不是有點奇怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16318.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16336.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
不是 你了解我的意思嗎我知道你的意思但是也不見得是委員講這樣那問題就來了嘛就是說我如果今天勞工遇到這樣的狀況我要先走一個很漫長的過程去確認雇用關係是否存在然後確認存在之後我還要再花更多的時間跟成本去打這個勞保的賠償之數嘛對不對然後有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16338.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16363.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
有可能是惡意倒閉等等的狀況雇主也賠不出來嘛所以繞了半天變成說勞工要花非常多的時間跟精力甚至是金錢然後不一定能夠討回他應有的公道所以本席認為勞保條例或有可以檢討之處針對勞保尤其是解雇的這一部分啊是應該做一些修法的調整嘛比如說我用道指起算而不是隨便用申報與否來做處理嘛部長認同這樣的方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16365.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16380.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
可以請 這有點細節啦但沒有關係就是我們現在的災保法是採稻殖及生肖嘛主要是災保法裡面對年資的要求是沒有的只要有工作他就會有可能發生災 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16381.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16399.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
所以我們倒職職生肖在執行上是沒有問題的可是在勞保的部分他有非常多的給付是以保險年資作為起算比如說老年那老年這個東西就是說勞僱雙方之間有沒有倒職這件事情保險人並不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16400.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16415.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
對 因為你有人力的有限嘛等等嘛所以你當然要走申報沒辦法 所以一定要申報所以如果說採道指及生效的話那麼他過了10年以後告訴我說我10年以前或20年以前他就道指了保險人其實是很難去查證的 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16416.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16444.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
那這兩個人做了就是這些在甚至有判決那如果這一部分的年制都要求社會保險來處理的話其實對財務的影響是非常大的我們今天提這個法案的修正案大體上來講就是針對我剛剛講的主要是我剛剛講的萬一有雇傭關係不存在存在或不存在的這樣一個爭議的時候這一段的勞保年制的空白期啊能不能對勞工更有保障那如果是朝這個方向的話請問勞保局有沒有什麼好的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16445.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16474.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
那这个地方刚刚就提到那个劳动事件法里面所谓的假处分他们可以去处理这样的一个事情对那老公也可以因为我刚才讲我自己认为他有一个切入点说还是从争议的处理的角度因为如果你要做整体的制度上面就是说从申报制改成直接就是一个那个内容我们到时候申报就还可以讨论因为这影响的层面跟他整个去计算的逻辑就会 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16475.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16499.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我覺得會有一些衝突但是如果比較可以講的事情說怎麼從爭議處理的邏輯可以減少勞工這邊需要的程序的負擔我認為可能是從因為委員剛才講的部分也是產生爭議的情境嘛所以這個情境就比較不是去推到說好像變成所有的人的制度上面都必須要去改變我覺得我們心態都開放一點我也開放那希望部長這邊也開放我覺得我們可以來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16500.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16524.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
假設爭議發生的狀況的話怎麼樣跟勞工能夠跟他隊友更高我現在是擔心就是說變成說我勞方要提出很多的反正各種救濟嘛而且都要我主動提他其實每一個救濟都是成本嘛也都是壓力嘛我們當然希望勞資爭議可以解決對不對但是這些東西如果通通是放在勞工這邊我是覺得有點不公平或有改善之處我覺得做法上我們可以雙方大家在真的是我們可以討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16525.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16545.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
沒有問題好不好警部長跟勞保局這邊稍微做點功課也調一下過去的勞資糾紛的這個真空期是怎麼處理的有多少人用的甲組份好我們來針對這個東西再進行詳細的討論可以嗎謝謝好辛苦謝謝好謝謝牛許廷委員發言鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接著請圖權吉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16555.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16565.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
好 謝謝主席 請我們洪部長還有我們調評師黃司長有請洪部長推很好以及黃司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16566.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16585.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
好 部長那在今年7月22號我們立法院有三讀通過公務人員任用法第36條之一那其中有附帶決議全序部於三個月內三修公務人員留職挺薪辦法放寬公務人員申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16586.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16614.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
育嬰升價的留職挺薪試遊讓公部門提供更友善的育嬰環境那當然這些部分我看你看考試院全序部動作也很快在8月26號他就預告公務人員留職挺薪辦法第五條 第六條 第九條的修正草案那在10月9號考試院院會通過修正公務人員留職挺薪辦法然後請我們行政院同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16616.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16639.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
後發布實施這個辦法目前據我們了解已經由行政院人事行政總署報到行政院近日就會公告我們今天針對工人員留職停薪辦法修正它是因為因應我們目前社會少子化少子女化及高齡化的社會趨勢營造友善的職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16641.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16668.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
那請問一下部長那針對公務人員這部分他們已經開始在做那針對我們受僱勞工的育嬰留職停薪這部分我們勞動部有沒有準備有沒有版本跟文說明其實因為在這個薪工法裡面那育嬰留停其實一個很重要概念是因為這個雙親他其實有撫養權有撫養權 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16671.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16680.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那是因为这个抚养权的这个义务那所以他会有这个运营流停推导出这个一个运营流停的概念这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16681.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16703.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
那當然對於阿公阿嬤那帶小孩育孫的部分那這當然這個涉及的層面就更大那也包括怎麼去做這些撫養權的認定所以的確我們自己在思考是說如果今天確實假設有案例他的撫養權是有判給阿公阿嬤判給這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16705.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16735.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
爷爷奶奶的话是不是从这个角度来去思考这件事情而不是所有的这个阿公阿嬷都能够有所谓的育孙所以部长你也知道今年1月就有这个新闻报道那有一个实际照顾孙子女的老公他本身也有监护权可是后来他申请育婴留职停薪津贴的时候被劳保局驳回所以我们今天提出就是凸显 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16735.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16751.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
我們受雇勞工 照顧孫子女其實是沒有得到國家政策的支持那當然我們這個案子那個本黨的邱若豪委員跟本席已經提出了《性別平等工作法》的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16752.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16780.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
修正育有孫子女得申請育嬰留職挺薪育嬰留職挺薪的部分那當然本席現在也進一步針對就業保險法來修正草案在孫子女三歲前得申請育嬰留職挺薪的津貼那剛剛部長有提到你說針對那個阿公阿嬤有實際照顧就像我剛剛講的不是啊 是他有撫養權 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16781.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16799.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
對 他有撫養權是法院判的撫養權對 那剛剛我講那個我們實際的狀況他已經法院有監護權可是他去申請這育嬰留職津貼可是勞保局是駁回的對 那因為這還涉及到修法因為勞保局駁回的原因是因為現在的法規就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16800.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
16820.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那當然如果要往這個方向的話他也要涉及修法可是哪些範圍比較適當而且相關的配套該是什麼我想這部分的確要花一點時間來研議因為整個運營留庭的制度包括涉及到性供法也涉及到救保法我想我也很清楚只是這裡面可能就不一定是所有的範圍都打開就是說只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
16821.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
16840.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
阿公阿嬤去照顾孙子或孙女就能够适用因为很多他的实际的抚养权没有在阿公阿嬤这边部长其实针对这部分我知道你担心说整个开放下去影响的层面会不会很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
16841.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
16859.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那可是其實針對部分我們也大概了解過其實我們推估我們60歲以上受雇勞工有孫子女我們預計大概有孫子女大概60歲大概60歲推估我們60歲以上那從我們到去年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
16860.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
16889.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
60岁以上受雇劳工的比例其实在所有比例里面整个比例里面它占不到4%只有3.9多%所以其实它的影响是非常有限所以整体来讲我们一般来讲要到有孙子孙女一般大概是到60岁但我还是跟文在补充的事情是说因为运营流停原本的运营流停原本一个概念它还是基于它这个抚养权的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
16890.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
16909.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
那所以今天如果要談這個育孫的部分的育嬰留田的話他可能我們還是希望他可以在一個有撫養權的概念下面去做討論不只是說會不會錢不多或者是不只是這個問題而是他有一個他原本制度設計的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
16911.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
16938.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
好 所以其實剛剛我們也有提一個重點其實主要是因應我們現在社會少子女化跟高齡化那現在其實你看公務人員任用法它已經修正表示我們社會上是真的有這個需求不然為什麼考試院跟行政院你看它整體的動作都很快那我們說如果公務人員針對這一部分它施行的效果很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
16939.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
16964.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
我是建議我們勞動部應該可以研議我朝這方面去研議我想我們確認一下因為就我知道好像是公務員這邊的預算他只有給假他沒有給津貼啊對我剛是講說對啊但是現在如果是從勞工的淤流亭的話那有假又有津貼有流亭又有津貼這是兩個法案啊我們第一個法案是說對可是我說公務員部分也沒有津貼吧我們印象中是沒有津貼對那是兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
16964.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
16990.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
两个法案一个就是针对我们希望从公务人员的部分也能够延伸到我们劳工育孙留职停薪的部分当然我们针对津贴的部分我们是建议针对这一部分是不是可以从保险法这一部分来研议因为它整体来讲60岁以上的劳工其实占我们所有劳工其实只有三年多不到4% |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
16991.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17020.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
我觉得相关的演绎还是希望他是要从这个抚养权尤其是法院认定的抚养权为核心从这个概念来去做相关权力的延伸跟演绎的讨论那因为这个大概就比较才比较符合运流停的概念运流停是从这个概念来发展出来那这部分因为有两个第一个就是我们希望针对我们育孙的部分留职停薪的部分能够推广到 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17020.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17035.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我們阿公阿嬤能夠從我們的但這個一樣還是要有還是要有法院的撫養權才這個才能夠比較有利潤的基礎對 但是我說現在公務人員這個推廣很好是說育嬰留職停薪的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17036.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17063.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
從工人員部分希望他做得很好的時候因應少子化跟高齡化希望能夠延伸到我們的勞工那針對津貼的部分當然我們下次提出我們希望主要真的是鼓勵希望針對年輕人現在因為少子化絕對是國安危機我們要因應更多的策略希望能夠鼓勵年輕人去多生小孩不然這個少子化已經是非常嚴重的國安危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17064.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17068.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
根本說明其實年輕人的確現在生小孩年輕生小孩以後更希望是自己帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17070.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17096.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
更希望是自己帶我想這個趨勢跟比例是看得清楚但是有些狀況是不允許對 但是我說他還是要看這個撫養權的概念對啦 我們盡量能夠放寬重點我們就是希望能夠解決少子化跟高年化這個問題們所因應的那所以我直接提出希望能夠來研議是不是怎麼樣子鼓勵年輕人多生小孩子那現在已經從公務人員做我們希望能夠擴大到勞工所以才從 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17096.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17115.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
從勞動部這邊來我認為我們可以在整體運流停制度上面來去思考但是還是是剛才講說是這個這個撫養權的概念要以這個為出發點跟核心對這個沒有辦法一下子就沒有耕著的地方就會有時候就像制度的穩定性就會比較多的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17116.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17137.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
對 這個我們可以納入整體來討論但是我們的目標就是希望針對少子化部分能延應更多的策略能夠鼓勵年輕人多生小孩當然 少子化各部會都要面對因為高齡化希望讓阿公阿嬤能夠來照顧也減輕我們年輕新手父母的負擔是 謝謝好 那接下來請我們勞保司司長跟勞保局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17141.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17162.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
好 那今天 當然我們今天主要針對就業服務法跟勞工保險條例那我們也知道其實這裡面兩個重點今天就是我們希望修法 明定政府負最後支付的責任那我剛剛也聽部長針對這一部分部長勞動部這邊也是持開放的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17165.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17183.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
那还有我们另外一个就是拨补法治化那我听了以后好像部长对于拨补法治化这一部分也没有太大的问题好像是对于要设定金额部长好像认为这一部分比较有疑义设定固定金额 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17184.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17206.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
可能就会跟我们的财政纪律法的这个会有汉格所以我们比较顾虑的是这一点就是因为108年有一个财政纪律法第七条规定就是建议不与民定政府每年拨补金额避免我们预算僵化或者会限制我们财政运用的能力是 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17207.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17230.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
這一部分當然我們現在據我們了解其實這個社會保險基金它有它的特殊性我們也看到其實農保健保它都有固定經費的額度像農保主管機關審核撥補然後醫生請中央予以補助健保的部分當然它是 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17231.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17247.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
以每年度保險經費扣除法定收入後36%的部分由主管機關編列預算撥補資也就是說其實農保跟健保它都有固定經費額度的撥補條例那這都是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17248.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17268.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那个财政纪律法之前对财政纪律法过后对基本上大家对财政纪律的要求就不太允许固定金额入法所以也就是说我们财政纪律法是108年公布嘛是那我的意思是说所以为什么他公布以后他对农保健保他没有特别的 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17269.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17297.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
提出說明或者去限制他但是在他公布之後後面的法規如果要這樣修訂的話那就會跟他漢格了對 那我們意思是說其實社會保險基金真的是有它的特殊性那我們也看106年其實蔡英文總統她有提出這個願版針對我們這個修正條文有提出她的願版可是我現在還沒有看到我們賴清德總統我們勞動部這邊有提出相關的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17298.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17307.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
我想跟委員說明尤其是在勞保條例的第6669條我想朝野委員都有提出版本那我們很願意開放正向的態度來參與委員會裡面審議的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17311.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17328.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
對 我是希望部長還是針對這一部分因為我們一直認為社會保險它真的是有它的特殊性那之前農保健保它會去編列表示真的有它的需求當然也因應108年財政紀律法的關係那我是認為這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17330.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17350.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
居然以前連106年蔡英文總統都有提出版本她也是在108年之前對 我是意思說表示她有她的需求如果說這個有她討論的空間我還是建議說我們還是要提出版本不然沒有提出版本還是不行我們會在審議的時候把我們的看法很清楚的來跟委員們討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17351.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17366.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
那包括委員們目前條文的一些修正的意見或者我們各個條文的相關的評估我們也會讓委員知道對 因為我意思說我們到現在還沒有看到辦法還是希望勞動部盡快來提出好 謝謝謝謝圖權級委員發言接下來請葉元之委員發言主委好 請到部長 謝謝請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17388.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17410.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
月文完不斷先問一下那個有關於勞保的議題我們現在針對身心障礙者如果要申請老年給付的話大概要幾歲以後開始可以都是一樣跟一般的人一樣都是60歲對不對對這是規定在勞工已經到了64歲了法定年齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17411.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17436.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
這是規定在勞工保險法第58條裡面那我希望說那個勞動部可以考慮一個狀況因為根據很多研究指示身心障礙者他們老化的會比較早會提早老化然後再來就是他們的平均餘命大概也會比一般人短一點所以能不能將身心障礙者的老年給付提前 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17437.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17450.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
好像我是有一個提案啊一個修正案就是希望能夠提早到50歲假設他50歲離職退保的話可以來申請老年給付那不知道那個部長能不能來演繹一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17452.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17475.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
跟委員報告 身障者的照顧我們覺得不只是社會保險他還是要從整體的社會的福利啊我知道啦 不用 我現在是講這個嘛我只是講這個 你針對這個問題回答就好了 好不好好 那在國際趨勢上對身障者也跟一般人的一樣因為我們現在的醫療的進步嘛他還是朝著延緩退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17477.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17501.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
沒有我沒有說那個要提早退休啊我是說申請老年給付就如果說他已經沒有工作了然後現在離職了退保了那要申請老年給付能不能提早我的議題在這邊意思是一樣啊就是說他要這跟他要不要退休沒有關係有些人他想要晚退就晚退嘛我現在是針對有一些他已經離職退保的人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17503.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17519.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那意思就是說如果對於這些身障者讓他提早來領第一個其實我們在老年年金的機制裡面已經有讓他可以提早五年領減額年金提早五年是幾歲可以領減額年金我這邊提案是50歲嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17527.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17549.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
你那個今天你研議一下啦好不好那如果再讓他提早的話他可能勞保的年資會很短而且他不能參加國保這個他們自己會做出對他們來說最有利的判斷嘛當然我們盡量站在他們的角度去規劃嘛但是我現在是針對一些比較我們如果法規定的很嚴的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17550.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17564.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
那有些特殊案例就會被法規綁死嘛我現在是說考量到一些特殊狀況稍微鬆綁嘛 只是這樣而已那你們勞動部要做的東西我們都沒有意見啊 都是支持的啊但是我們針對身障的其實有失能年輕了 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17565.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17593.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
這不一樣的東西啦 不是一直跟我扯別的好先這樣囉 反正我先把這個議題先拋出來你們研究一下第二個 文這不是扯啦 這真的是我們沒有沒有 我現在在講A 我們的同仁還是我現在在講A 然後就跟我說你有BCD那我就沒有辦法聚焦 我們就沒辦法聚焦了嘛還是會有一個整個基金的思考啦我就沒辦法聚焦了啦 先針對這個問題啦我認為這不是扯啦那就沒有聚焦在這個議題裡面嘛好第二個啦 我跟部長問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17595.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17624.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
央行現在又說要增加那個基本工資那我有一些央行老總部央行央行我是說央行現在又呼籲要提高基本工資然後那我現在是想請教一下我有問過一些有一些人資給我一些建議就是說為什麼我們提高基本工資但是絕大多數的勞工啊他們薪資是沒有跟著成長主要原因是因為大家不是領基本薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17625.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17628.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
那現在基本薪資提高當然對本 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17629.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17656.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
假設對本國的勞工他是領基本薪資的當然是有受惠但絕大多數領基本薪資的是外勞那所以只要是基本薪資 我也並不是大部分是本勞外勞也有嘛外勞也有嘛 但並不是他們是絕大多數好沒關係就是外勞有一些公司裡面他們很多是比如說都是外勞為主嘛那就是在他們公司裡面就是外勞提高嘛那我要講的是說你們有沒有研究過就是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
17657.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
17670.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
本勞跟外勞的基本薪資可以脫鉤這個議題我講說人資的建議是為什麼你知道嗎因為有一些企業喔他們每一年的薪資的預算調高的預算其實都是固定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
17671.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
17688.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那假設那家公司他是以外就是很多作業員或什麼是以外勞為主的話那基本工資一提高他必須要支付就是外勞的薪資提高的的那些薪資成本嘛所以相對來說他就壓縮了他幫本國勞工就是不是領基本薪資的本國勞工加薪的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
17690.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
17710.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
这个是有些人的呼吁那当然我知道劳动部一定有考量因为这个议题也不是新的议题大家讨论非常久叶委员讲这比较是从公司跟资方的角度但是你如果让本劳跟外劳的最低工资脱钩的时候等于也让资方有更多其实可能更 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
17711.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
17732.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
更低成本的勞工可以使用的時候這其實對於本勞的就業機會對我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道像這個其實有一些配套都是可以解決嗎舉舉來講你也可以例如說我們之前講的嘛你可以提高就安定基金就安定費啊就是說讓他聘外勞的成本沒有沒有想像中的這麼低 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
17733.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
17763.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
然後讓他覺得因為本勞那如果你拉高救援跟安定費那為什麼不乾脆就讓因為你當然你拉高的成本你讓他在這邊減少成本然後在救援跟安定費再增加成本你不一定要完全一樣不是你錢的部分不一定要完全一樣可是那個公司他會考量啊我今天也許聘本勞貴一點點但是本勞至少在語言文化適應力上面會比較好所以成本比較高他還是願意聘本勞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
17764.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
17780.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
所以我覺得你可以想想看因為這個是一個很多人之的建議啦就是說因為我們實施就是那個本國勞工跟外籍就是外籍勞工的那個薪資沒有不脫鉤已經很長一段時間了我覺得是可以研究一下看看怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
17782.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
17804.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
怎麼做一直有這個聲音啦那當然這聲音有很多他其實從企業的角度他會講到這樣的事情可是當然如果從一個保障勞動就業的角度來說的話我們的確問題是要非常審慎問題是你這樣一直講那企業從他的角度他就是不這樣做啊除非你有別的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
17804.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
17832.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
要他就是同時間幫不是領基本工資的人加薪否則他就是這樣做啊你也沒有什麼強制力叫他不這麼做最低工資調高的目的主要還是在出還是在去面對這個邊際勞工他可能在整體加薪上面會比較困難所以我們從過去從大概兩萬塊左右現在加到了我們都支持基本工資調升我沒有說不要我沒有說不要我現在講的是本國跟外勞的脫鉤這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
17832.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
17845.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
就是如果有脫鉤的話可以幫助一些不是領基本工資的勞工也有機會可以加薪因為企業加薪的那個預算就是這麼多我的意思是這樣我認為這議題真的要比較審慎尤其是從也許要從勞動權益的角度來看真的要比較審慎謝謝葉元芝委員發言請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
17867.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
17870.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
謝謝主席 主席請一下洪部長請洪部長部長我們今天委員會就是審議勞保條例跟就業服務法的修正草案的大體詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
17888.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
17914.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
那我看是這樣子就是在勞保條例的修正當中不分黨派的委員大概就政府撥補成為勞保基金的財源跟勞保的財務由政府負擔最終給負責任是大家很有共識比較遺憾的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
17917.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
17938.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
各政黨的委員有共識 可是看起來是行政立法沒有共識啊我從上一個會期就要求勞動部必須要就這兩個相關的規定提出版本可是我看你們也不提啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
17940.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
17968.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
我們很願意在審議的時候我們一起來討論部長你知道審議的時候支持跟提版本的差異嗎是你說說看當然我想我們其實對這個事件審議我們還是是很開放的意見開放喔民進黨長期都講說國家在 勞保不會倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
17969.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
17995.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
可是卻不願意讓他入法安定全國勞工的我們沒有不願意 我們是同意的那你們假如同意就是行政怠惰啦你們假如同意就是行政怠惰我在上一個會期就跟部長要求過兩次希望執政團隊可以表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
17997.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18016.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
勞保是超過一千萬人口啊等於台灣兩個人就有一個人是投勞保的那埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃埃 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18018.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18047.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
那我就說只要願意就是行政帶墮嘛我們是很清楚我們是我們其實現在在這部分這本來就是我們的政策部長我就說我就說字體版本是一種表態審議的時候贊成是一種附和特別是以行政機關來講委員之間啊有的時候在審議的時候表示贊同是因為委員不是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18048.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18071.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
委員要負責看的法案太多 所以我沒有注意到這一塊那某一個委員提出了 我表示贊同那你們對於自己主管的業務的法律一方面表示贊同 一方面覺得應該做 另外一方面不提版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18072.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18082.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
不提版本就是到時候通過的條文就是委員版本並不是民進黨執政的行政院勞動部提的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18084.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18109.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
我這樣講有沒有道理跟委員說我們在審議的時候我想我們會對版本的內容包括是文字上面我們會提出我們很明確的意見文字上面我還真的不知道你能就這幾個字我不知道你能怎麼你是不是可以把給付責任改成支付責任還是怎麼樣要不然大的概念大的概念你已經放棄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18110.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18128.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
你難道要到委員會來就很細的文字問題來做溝通這個你覺得是勞動部應該要做的我不是說文字不能修正我只是說文字的修正是知為末節的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18131.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18140.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
站在主管全國勞工權益 保障權益勞工政策的勞動部 這個沒有版本本席對於執政黨非常的失望因為我已經上一屆不談 這一屆包括部長來接部長以後 我大概就提醒了三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18155.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18182.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
因為這個是草野大家不要說草野委員這個是全國人民共同的期盼為什麼呢因為我們的經濟奇蹟來自勞工的努力可是國家因為勞保的設計讓退休的勞工的生活一直處在很不安定性的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18184.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
18210.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
執政團隊連做這樣子的宣示都不願意我其實還蠻絕望的 部長我說真的特別是這個會期 已經那麼多委員的版本進來了你們不願意 那你們覺得說討論法案的時候 只要你們有參與意見只要你們表示贊同 就是你們的立場那要這個行政團隊幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
18214.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
18243.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
不然我這樣說有沒有道理還是你還是覺得說可以沒有版本然後作為主管機關的勞動部對於這麼重要的一個法案可以沒有版本然後就討論的時候就說 欸 贊同楊耀委員的提案跟委員說明 其實在因為這個議題跟這個議案其實也涉及到很多在行政院裡面很多的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
18244.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
18273.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
尤其也是涉及到包括財主單位那喔喔 部長你是勞動部的部長那勞工保險條例由衛王委員會審議所以你就提你的版本就可以了至於後續的後續的行政團隊之間要法案過了並不是你不提版本法案就不過啊民進黨是少數黨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
18276.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
18290.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
不一定有 這樣條文是什麼意思我們對條文是有想法的然後我們也贊成這個概念有想法沒有做法我們有想法的 然後我們也有相關的其實我們在這裡面的評估的眼裡那我們在審議的時候我們會很清楚表達我們的看法還是你現在要表達看看你現在想想看 反正後面也沒有委員啦我耽誤稍微一點時間沒關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
18301.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
18326.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
你現在講講看委員在大的方向上當然我們是同意包括撥補的入法包括最終責任這幾個入法的那裡面當然也會當然我們認為其實應該要對檢討的時間點那檢討的時間區段那我們也會有一些看法所以那你們為什麼不提版本呢我這樣子講啊保定政府撥補其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
18330.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
18359.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
各黨派的委員在幫你們做後續的補救因為你們已經坐在前面了只是把他入法由政府負擔最終己負責任也是民進黨政府先喊出國家債勞保不會倒我不知道你們為什麼這樣子的法案推不出來啊我覺得太不負責任了 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
18360.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
18369.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
我們並不是不負責任 我們很願意在這個事情上面負起對勞保該負的責任我想行政團隊態度是清楚的我在這裡14年了我不清楚啊我對你們的態度我還真的不清楚啊我連要求你們提個版本你們都提不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
18388.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
18417.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
部長你有沒有知道這個應用是什麼這個影響就是到最後是跨黨派的委員照顧體現了照顧全國勞工的決心可是執政團隊對這件事情並不在意我們沒有不在意不是你們在意我們如果不在意我們如果不在意不會逐年的都去跟行政院爭取越來越多的撥補的金額這當然就是我們非常在意這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
18418.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
18446.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
不是 我現在在跟你討論法案我是說你一直在撥補嘛所以我們提案讓你的撥補有更明確的法源嘛你自己倒是不願意懂我的意思嗎不是啊我不知道你搖頭的意思是什麼啦不過呢就是從具體的事項來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
18447.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
18461.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
你們就是不願意啦你們只要願意 我不相信這麼簡單的條文你們擬不出來而且不是說很短的時間要你們擬出來不然我其實現在是覺得還蠻失望的啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
18472.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
18493.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
民進黨在國會弱勢已經一年多了你們難道沒有想到說你們縱使沒有版本也會有跨黨派的不要說在野黨的委員像我執政黨的委員我也要提出來啊為什麼 因為每天都在討論勞保什麼時候要倒嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
18495.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
18502.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
最少最終 最終己負責任必須要入法 這個是最簡單這個是簡單 再簡單不過的事情嘛這樣說不出來啊我還是要提醒藉由一個最新的民調來提醒部長啊就是說普發現金啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
18520.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
18541.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
行政院把超徵的稅款拿來普發現金啦台灣的民意調查37%的人認為是立法院給的只有22%覺得是行政院給的部長 很多東西不是說我們自己想自己對就是結論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
18552.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
18573.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
我不知道這樣說下去會太久沒 我也問一下好了啦只有拖到時間啦我們在剛才講的普發現金的國安任性特別條例的特別預算裡面有5400多億 勞保基金的撥補只有100億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
18575.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
18588.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
部長在分配這個超徵收稅款的時候我就有要求部長必須要去大力爭取結果你爭取不到兩趴其實我們是在公務預算有爭取一千二不是一千二不夠嘛不是說一千二萬落去勞保就一刀永逸嘛不是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
18602.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
18627.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
那為什麼有多出來的稅收你沒有能力去跟行政院講要多撥一點好 那你們不撥你們就自己想說我做一個大膽的假設假如說一開始行政院就把這五千多億全部撥補勞保跟健保在野黨不敢反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
18629.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
18657.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
我剛剛講過了 健保是全民共享啊老保 台灣兩個人裡面就有一個是老保人口可是你們不做這樣子的處理然後繞了一大圈還是按照在野黨的想法普發現金沒關係沒關係 要結束了這個 我還是提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
18659.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
18683.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
在國會沒有過半是已經一年半的事情了所以很多政策在推動就是必須要合法、合理、合情為什麼我說特別預算假如撥給勞保大家不會有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
18685.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
18711.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
因為第一個原因是因為稅收本身就是財富的重新分配分配給比較弱勢的勞工沒有人敢反對第二個就是經濟好才會稅收多稅收多才會有多餘的稅金可以分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
18714.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
18741.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
經濟的創造者是勞工就這兩個這麼簡單的理由那你們還一直活在全面執政的時代裡面我有很多事情我也沒有辦法謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝楊耀委員發言本日會議詢答全部結束先做以下決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
18743.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
18772.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案等30案以及就業服務法部分條文修正草案等12案另則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |