| IVOD_ID |
17037 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17037 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025111426 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-14T13:31:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-14T15:15:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:43:51 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0dffd738a7356f4da6eded3772a784c03914d0d15f34b2c024842bbe6be2da5325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-14T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：協商補助型計畫財劃法修正案、環評法、發展觀光條例、地質法） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:31:09 - 15:15:00 |
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他們還沒有到 |
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1725.869 |
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1732.333 |
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我們通知一下民進黨團跟臺灣民眾黨團趕快到會好嗎好 臺灣民眾黨團 陳曹志偉好好好 歡迎歡迎通知民進黨團 |
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1839.772 |
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1844.859 |
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欸 民進黨團怎麼還沒有到能不能意識出我們通知一下民進黨團將會輸的好嗎時間寶貴 好 謝謝 |
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1998.28 |
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2021.907 |
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謝謝各位黨團幹部都有部分的黨團幹部都已經到了三黨都有代表到了我們現在開始開會 |
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2023.288 |
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2032.843 |
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我們依照上午院會黨團共識來進行協商首先來介紹今天我們列席的我們行政院的我們財政部莊部長歡迎國庫署陳署長 |
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2038.09 |
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2059.239 |
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主席總書陳主席長 歡迎國家發展委員會的吳專維法務部的廖參事 歡迎我們今天要次序來第一題是財化法部分修正條文部分修正案第二題是發展公共條例修正案第三題是 |
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2061.048 |
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2070.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
環評法修正案第四題是地質法修正案現在我們依序來進行協商我們要請各位黨團來發言首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2088.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2098.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
沒問題 我們就維持原順序好的 我們先請國民黨團副總召什麼時候到好 請羅志強 羅書記長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2104.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2127.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
中央不該集權又集錢這是我們總統賴清德在當台南市市長時候的一個莊嚴的一個宣誓民進黨對於所謂的要打破中央集權又集錢這樣的一個主張也是一以貫之直到民進黨執政之後態度開始改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2129.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2151.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那我們關於這個財政收支劃分法這個所謂的改革的這個進程所以我們國民黨是按照我們的步調持續在進行當中但是很可惜當我們修正財政收支劃分法之後也發現說基本上民進黨政府一直在中間找一些所謂的漏洞縫隙 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2153.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2167.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那沒有關係民進黨政府就是擴張很多對於才化法我們修正的一個解釋那我們就讓他再回到這個賴清德總統宣誓的中央不該集權又集權的這個大方向目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2168.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2189.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以我們對於財政收支劃分法再次的提出了修正那我想不管是在我們之前的幾次朝野的一些意見的交訪當中大概討論的問題都討論的差不多所以我們覺得今天就趕快來處理這件事情 以上好 謝謝國民黨團那個張祺凱 張副總統請發言總統派行政院無法無天向土匪政府根本不嚴守法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2198.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2226.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們好不容易通過了財化法的這個修正明年度應該下放給地方的錢4165億右手下放結果民進黨竟然去找漏洞完全違法的狀況之下又去砍掉了砍掉了計畫型補助款2646億右手立法院三讀通過下放的錢行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2227.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2237.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
竟然像土匪一樣把原來明年度應該下放到地方的計劃型的補助款2954億砍到只剩下308億幾乎全砍耶幾乎全砍耶這筆錢要做什麼用像台中市政府的捷運照原來這個計劃型補助款明年要給人家60億砍掉只剩下1.6億 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2257.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2284.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
人家桃園縣的一個珍珠的海岸的這個計畫還有這個校園無障礙這個補助計畫都被大砍計畫型的補助款就是一個大部分都是延續性的你怎麼可以說砍就砍呢這麼無法無天而且地方本來就比你沒錢我們好不容易通過了統籌費受款的這個下放你用計畫型補助款錢砍又搶了回去等於是搶了三分之二的錢回去第二是很離譜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2286.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2292.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
除了計劃型補助款被砍了之外一般性的補助款很多都是法定的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2294.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2319.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
結果他竟然砍了 把一部分砍完之後另外一部分說要求他還要再提計畫重新來申請他砍掉是哪一些教育的經費砍掉659億 這要做什麼基本教育人員辦公的這個費用營養午餐費 還有水電費 冷氣退服的支出 限職的待遇的調整這都是法定預算 長年來都在用的這種錢你們怎麼砍得下手 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2322.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2328.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
還有一個很嚴重的最近你看今年就來了幾個颱風連輸進跟清一的預算砍了24億在做什麼經濟部河川輸進減少了10億內政部的下水道少了14億這是多嚴重一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2342.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2355.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
不只是違法無法無天你們所砍的下手這都是地方的救命錢關係到老人家關係到一般的年輕族群小孩子跟社會福利的錢連清淤跟蘇健的錢你們都砍教育經費你們都砍這樣砍的結果變成什麼像嘉義市統籌分配稅款下放了66億你們這樣亂砍砍掉了69億啦比立法院本來給嘉義市的錢扣回去你們搶回去還減少了負3欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2373.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2397.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這樣立法院還要開會嗎好不容易通過了統籌分配稅款專家學者全國的民眾包括剛剛志強在講的你連帶清德自己當台南市長的時候都說他是惡法要把錢下放給地方當行政院長還說你要提法民進黨多少前輩們柯總召以前你們高升吉夫要修的財劃法終於下放要鬥死地方支持照顧地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2399.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2421.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
不容易你們現在又把錢違法又去砍掉而且砍的是計劃型補助款卡到單刀劍鼓剩下308億砍了兩千多億計劃型補助款一般性的把它變成是要去審查這無法無天就跟土匪一樣所以我支持今天國民黨的提案第一個我們明確要求被民進黨砍掉這個計劃型補助款在參法法裡面修法把它補回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2425.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2449.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他的他補助的這個比例不能夠低於過去十年同等財力的縣市同等計劃型的平均值就過去十年平均值必須要補回來明確修法第二個本來我們已經明定了一般補助款不能比去年低我們現在把它改成對各個縣市政府各地方政府一毛錢都不能比去年來的少謝謝謝謝張祺凱台灣民眾黨發言今天我們請民進黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2452.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2476.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
院長 各位委員同仁對不起 財政部長請準備我剛才很仔細的在聽張祺凱在大放劫持竟然還要點名叫我你們都不知道你們是怎麼惡修法是你們惡修所以造成這樣的結果我們要知道中華民國所有法律裡面只有財政收支法案法是依據憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2478.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2504.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
耳釘釘的法各位可以看一下開宗明義第一條這張寫說他是屬於財政憲法這很重要的一件事國民黨拿起來亂修一通隨便的隨之亂修才造成這種惡果是你們這樣惡修才造成這種惡果政府不得不造你們的版本一定會變成這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2506.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2525.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
既然倒狗為鷹 居然還在推給民進黨還在大謀劫持他們 都在罵什麼東西我們想 因為有時候 留意大家都很大不要拿當時議會來就甩了二十八萬 那就不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2526.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2549.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
大家都一樣 我在人眼旁觀你這麼來人力 反正你資質不多這麼多時間來 你都是如此的態度在你臨別的時候 我還會懇請公司你不要如此做人的有基本道理這根本就是你們二修的結果嘛所以根本不可能接受你們這種結果啊這是把整個產業法整個亂修掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2551.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2569.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這樣的國會都是這種暴力國家財政是完全破壞掉而且這個財政憲法完全 完全摧毀這個 這非常嚴重的事情以上 以上是我的看法謝謝柯總召發言麻煩請財政部專務部長發言主席長 陳局長請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2571.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2583.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝主席我想有關中央財政收支劃分法在今年3月總統公告以後有關中央統籌分配稅款的計算以及核算以後的通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2584.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2608.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在115年的分配金額的部分 財政部在114年的8月底已經通知給各地方政府 這是有關中央統籌分配稅款那中央統籌分配稅款的規模已經比114年增加了4165億元這是有關中央統籌分配稅款的部分 所以規模達到8000多億那至於有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2609.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2617.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款的部分那這個部分是由主計總署來主責的 以上的說明好 謝謝莊部長 麻煩請陳主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2620.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2640.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
是整個財務法的一個新的財務法他只有調整各級政府的一個稅收劃分然後大幅削減中央的財源但是並沒有並同檢討中央地方的事權那水平分配著重在人口和盈利事業額指標造成具有財政優勢的視線跟具優勢擴大成相差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2642.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2670.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
背离柴娃娃的一个立法意旨那地方获得中央统筹分配税大增4165亿元它自有的财源已经大幅增加但是却还是要求一般性补助款维持修正施行前一年的预算编列数将造成中央施政至碍行政院也申请释宪限于成名那新版柴娃娃实施以后呢中央和地方财政资源经过调整 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2671.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2699.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那中央這個地方FORPAY的統籌匯款大增4165億元的不嚴重衝擊中央可運用的資源所以會辦理外交公共建設科技等中央已經舉債近3000億所以無法維持以往對地方的一個補助能量那對於個別條文的意見對30條的第二項裡面補助計劃型的補助款比例不得低於過去10年才立的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2700.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2722.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
及次的這個平均值的這個部分因為計劃型補助是中央會引導各縣市中央重要政策和業務予以補助那所以政策目的如果達成以後應該逐步調降補助比率或退場不再辦理要求保障相關計畫的一個補助補益實不合理那目前各部會比 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2723.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2748.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
計劃的一個補助呢都所獲得額度各縣市實際需求不同計劃都依不同財力給予不同的一個補助比率所以如果明定補助的一個固定保障的補助比率不得降低過去十年的財力及次同類型計劃將影響各部會業務實際的需要做合理分配第三條文第三項裡面規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2749.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2766.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
就是说中央给予各地方一般性补助款不得低于修行前一年预算和劣数它违反地方制度法案财务合法的意旨财务合法第30条原来规定是说中央为谋求群伙的经济平衡发展的作与补助地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2766.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2792.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
地制法第60條條第1項的規定也規範上級政府為謀求地方均衡發展對於財力較差的地方政府應卓以補助所以它的一個立法精神補助款是解決各市縣的水平均衡發展兼顧地方財政財力下卓以補助所以這新版的財務法法呢它中央地方資源調整中央貨配 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2795.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2815.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
地方货配的统筹分配税款大增4165亿严重冲击中央可运用的一个资源为办理国防外交公共建设和科技中央已经举债3000亿所以无法维持以往对地方的一个补助能量那鉴于财务法和地方制度法立法一直是调整于 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2816.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2836.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
財政營需為區域進而區域平衡發展中央佐與補助所以新版財務法裡面各縣市水平分配不均如果在民定各地方一般性補助不得低於前一年修正實行前的一個預算額度恐擴大城鄉差距家具負責業務窮者 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2838.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2852.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
未改善的问题所以这个部分我们仍然是回归原来由中央医财政能力是地方经济发展情形予以协助那再来第三个就是修正条文第四项 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2855.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2869.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
114年補助各地方政府補助補助款的金額不得少於113年8月30日核定的金額一截因為114年度追加預算已經有辦理追加636億這個部分是不是建議予以刪除那至32條還有一個32條之一這個部分因為這個30條而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2884.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2888.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
各黨團跟行政部門都已經表達意見顯然沒有辦法達成共識那我們這樣的話我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2903.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2915.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們就幫各條文啊 我們就送院會來進行處理 好不好好 特別跟檔檯來報告一下我們現在進行第二題我們進行環評第二題環評法的協商 好不好三十二條 後面幾條都一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2937.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2938.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
副總召這樣可以吧 副總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2963.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2983.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝財政部主席總書 謝謝我們現在環境部沈次長 謝謝您經濟部何次長 歡迎法務部還是廖三少 歡迎您 謝謝辛苦辛苦我們現在進行台灣民眾黨團所提案的我們請提案的黨團黃國昌總召請發言謝謝院長還有各黨團的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2991.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3020.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
針對有關於這一次為了要去處理台灣山有光電板海有光電板然後過去在到目前為止如果上一次環境部提供的資訊是正確的話過去從來沒有實施過環評從來沒有到目前為止他們說他們頒布了一個辦法好像是2025年年初的時候所判定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3021.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3028.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
到目前為止也只有一件有送還品然後被你們在程序上面就退回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3031.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3055.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
在委員會質詢的時候我想大家也都非常關心這樣子的議題因此我們提出有關於針對在設置地面型跟水面型的光電板要環評相關的規範屋頂型是把它排除在外 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3057.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3084.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
現在我們跟目前昨天的協商各個黨團的代表也都發表過看法了我們先就國家公園法的部分我們今天沒有排入議程處理因為昨天國家公園署的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3085.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3107.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他說在國家公園裡面本來就不可以設光電板不在14條的規範範圍之內這個是昨天在協商的時候他們所講的內容基於對於行政部門的尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3108.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3133.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
跟信任因為他們說他們不會依照國家公園法14條第10款他們不會許可我昨天擔任島長協商的主席我坐在上面聽得蠻清楚的我也問了好幾次他是這樣子去做回覆的那只不過說昨天啊那個協商結束了以後就有環保團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3137.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3162.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就跟我們黨團說昨天那個國家公園署的署長他講的不完全正確他說玉山國家公園那個氣象站旁邊是有設地面型的光電板是有設地面型的光電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3164.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3193.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那我後來他們跟我這樣講了以後我也有點驚訝我想說我們國家公園署的署長不至於啦在國會裡面做虛偽不實的陳述那但是既然有人做這樣子的澄清跟表達那我就要去查嘛那我們查了以後用Google Map上面的Google Earth的空照圖去看還真的有光電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3195.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3223.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
還真的有光電板就當我們很困擾因為我們昨天在協商的時候我們基本上是相信他所以我們先把國家公園法就先把它拉回來因為他已經說了昨天在協商的現場大概講了N次了依照國家公園法就是不會允許沒有辦法允許他設光電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3224.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3245.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
講了非常多次但現實上面的狀況跟協商協商現場行政機關所表達的意見跟客觀的事實顯然不符讓我們覺得很困擾這到底是怎麼回事這個是第一個部分第二個部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3250.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3279.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
過去這段時間不管是七大光電業者還是各種不同系統的環保團體所謂各種不同系統的環保團體因為台灣是一個自由民主的國家有很多各式各樣的環保團體都有跟我們表達意見有人覺得說再放得寬一點比如說昨天協商結束了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3280.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3307.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
有一個環境權的基金會希望能夠放到2000千瓦以下就不在限制的範圍之內2000千瓦基本上就是2MW2MW以目前光電設置起來的面積如果是依照經濟部能源署他們面積的換算 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3308.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3332.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
大概兩公頃 兩個Megawatts大概需要兩公頃這樣子的占地這樣子的一個主張我們也沒有辦法就是說我老實講兩公頃還蠻大的所以其他的環保團體他們也有表達看法絕對沒有辦法接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3335.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3362.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
兩個Megawatts 兩公頃以下就不在限制的範圍之內當然在這一次整個修正過程當中我們不希望去限制到說自用型面積比較小的因為大家比較關心的是拿來比較大規模的搞特別是在一些風景區或是地質敏感區或者是山坡地等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3363.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3389.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
有需要規範的地方那如果說涉及到一些是自用的小農這種需求的自己家用型的那昨天我們聆聽各方的意見我們覺得也有道理所以我們今天會提出再修正動議會把那種自用的把它排除在範圍之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3391.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3414.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那剛剛這個是民進黨版本是是是 那個我們那個黨團的版本也可以那個發下去讓那個主席還有民進黨黨團也可以看到因為現在既然在協商嘛沒有問題您就私底下好不好是是是 可以了可以了 好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌總統 反而柯總召請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3417.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3440.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
主席 各位行政代表首先針對剛才黃國昌委員所談的在益生國家公園的問題一空五蓋那是自己架設自己用的沒有這個不可能是外面來開放用的這不知道怎麼回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3443.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3472.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
好啦 我要講啦你不好笑我不會好笑我們就只憑著客觀事實在講話沒關係這不是今天的重點今天重點就是說有關環評法今天環評法第五條修正案剛才黃委員也有講過你們也有版本嘛那我們也有版本我們版本很簡單而且很但是就是在第11款增加11款本來總共11款我們現在變成12款 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3472.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3499.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那11款我們把它改為宜濕地坦自動池民生用水庫及宜溫等水域空間進行太陽能光電系統的開發我們再要這一款就是等一下請各位委員大家來參佐一下那至於民眾黨有新的版本我們也希望大家能夠合約討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3500.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3506.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好 謝謝現在民進黨團在修正中已經在各位手上等一下台灣民眾黨團也會發出再請大家看一下請國民黨團發言環境部請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3515.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3541.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
很高興民眾黨有提出對國家環境保護還有這個光電不要肆意濫行開發保護美麗的台灣好山好水留給代代的兒孫這個本來就是我們應該要全力來支持也全力來關注的我想現在大概來遊說的團體我們大概都可以了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3543.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3567.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
遊說的團體我們大概都可以了解說不外乎啊這個國家要發展啊包括台積電等等都需要綠電綠電我們當然支持啊綠電我們當然支持啊但是國家可以自己來做啊台電可以自己來做啊我有這麼多的國有地在國家風景區國家公園以外有這麼多的國有地為什麼台電不會來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3570.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3597.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
台南沒有這個技術嗎 沒有能力做嗎非要台灣烽火連天啊各地都要開槍啊開88槍還不過要繼續開下去台南市政府光一個圖利一個光電案就91億光圖利金額就91億遠遠超過行政院七年的沒宣費一個小小的光電案圖利就91億 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3599.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3616.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這已經成為民進黨所謂真的是污染了民進黨的神主牌位你廢核能就是要搞黑店我想今天這個東西早就應該處理但是過去8年 過去8年執政者一黨獨大 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3619.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3647.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
讓這個問題一直沒有辦法能夠見天日我想今天民眾黨提這個案子我們非常支持好 謝謝副總統我們請環境部我們省次長請表達意見經濟部請準備是主席各位委員大家好我想我們在我們這次要討論的是環評法的第五條的修正那第五條的開宗明義就是對於開花行為對環境有不良影響之餘者要實施環境影響評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3648.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3667.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那這個條文裡面會把它列舉原來是有11項那有關於這樣的一個影響的這樣的一個細目或者是範圍認定標準另外有訂定一個更完整的標準來做一個說明這裡面也有40幾條那這個標準從民國84年迄今 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3672.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3700.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
不到兩年的時間就會修一次也就是說從84年到現在已經修了16次了我想今天黨團這邊也有做一些說明就是說各界對這個法令是非常關心的而且提出了很多的意見跟建議那過去是在這樣的一個標準裡面去寫明的東西現在把它提到母法的法規的範圍裡面去的時候它失去了它的彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3701.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3726.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們很擔心在環境變遷的議題上面我們隨時都要去做修正跟因應你將來要去修法的時候就要回到立法院去處理如果讓他在這樣的一個標準裡面去實施的時候讓他保有彈性對環境保護可以達到更大的目的所以環境部的立場是希望是不是各界跟委員所關心的議題我們可以在我們的認定標準裡面去把它完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3728.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3747.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
讓這樣的話達到保護我們臺灣環境的目的以上說明好 謝謝環境部說明現在我們請經濟部請說明好 感謝院長召集今天的這個會議然後讓我們這個修法能夠在能夠兼顧環境保護還有整個經濟發展的這個需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3747.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3762.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那在經濟部的立場我們為企業能夠來爭取需要的綠電希望未來在我們的環評法裡面也要能夠有可以讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3764.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3788.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這個我們這些綠電的開發商他能夠按照法規的規範能夠來為國家能夠開發足夠的這個綠電那因為我們現在有許多的這個企業包括台積電 鴻海聯電這些知名的大廠其實他們都需要許多綠電而且他們也都加入RE100所以我們需要國內需要足夠的綠電來提供給這些大廠那第二個當然就是綠電 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3790.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3814.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
綠電跟環評需要有一些這個平衡那我想這個綠能設施的這個建制在台灣的環評法的母法跟子法裡面都有相關的規範那我想我們這個經濟部會跟環境部這邊一起來努力來這個把過去沒有做的完善的地方我們可以這個再把這些機制能夠再把它補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3815.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3824.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那我想發展綠能應該也都是大家的共識那未來希望大家也能夠用可以讓產業發展還有讓這個環境保護這樣的一個立場然後共同來支持我們這個綠能的一個開發那當然經濟部也會用嚴格還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3836.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3848.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個用這個嚴格監督的這個一個態度來對綠能案場的這個開發來做一些審查那在追求綠能跟環保平衡的一個發展以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3850.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3877.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那個各位黨團幹部我想我們各黨團都已經表達了意見行政部門也表達了意見我想環兵法我們是沒有嘉賓兄你要發言好請請簡短二頁好謝謝那麼在這裡特別請我們兩個黨團的幹部看一下其實目前雖然說是民主進步黨團的提出的修正再修正動議那上剛我們念的那個部分剛又發給大家看 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3878.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3896.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這是之前是王敏委員在去年7月他所提出的那這提出的當中他有增加了一個11款那我們是認為這11款的內容完完全全就是目前大家所關注的我們都希望在環評法當中加強對這些水面型光電的一個環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3898.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3918.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那麼因為過去我們對於水面型的光電大概只有很籠統的想水面型但是王育民委員的版本當中他很清楚的將它區分成濕地 埤塘 滯洪池 水庫及餘溫那因為這五種類型上面施設水面型光電它對環境的影響是不太一樣的那麼因為有這樣的分類之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3919.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3948.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
接續下去所謂的設置標準在執法當中可以分別去規範那會比我們在母法當中單獨訂了一個1萬千瓦5公頃這樣的一個絕對值更能夠滿足各種不同水面型它的光電開發行為對環境的衝擊的差異那因為這完全是來自原用於王玉明委員在去年7月所提出的版本當中的第11款 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3949.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3960.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們認為這樣的第十一款的規劃也符合包括民眾黨黨團他們所非常關注的也是目前國人所在意的也是目前民主建部黨願意跟國民黨黨團共同合作我們來促成讓環境影響評估法 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3968.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3983.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
第五條在增列這第十一款那未來呢環境部就更應該要嚴格的針對這五種的不同的水域進行不同的設置標準的認定那以便呢在這些不同的水域範圍內如果有任何的光電開發行為他就必須要遵守相關設置認定標準相關認定標準的規範那我想這樣的細膩呢這樣比較細膩的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3994.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4011.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
比較不會造成對於水面型光電一概的一個有人說是封殺有人說是保障那麼事實上他們這五種不同的水域性質是完全不一樣的比如說像水庫它有農業用的水庫有工業用水的水庫也有民生用水的水庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4011.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4015.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
你說皮塘那大多數用來農業灌溉你說濕地有重要濕地你說這個我們說的滯洪池它其實滯洪池平常大多是沒有水的或水很少的那這些地區要設置不同的水面型的光電它對環境造成衝擊也應該遵循不同的認定標準那以上建請我們主席還有另外兩位黨團來採訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4036.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4050.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那個中嘉賓委員所提的這個增加第11款再修正的東西都在各位的手上各位可以參酌一下那台灣民眾黨所提的也來了也請大家各位一併來看一下接下來我們請黃國昌總召發言人傅坤祺總召請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4051.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4070.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的建議事實上當初王玉民委員提這個案子其實我們也有納入考慮當中我覺得剛剛鍾嘉斌委員講的其實也很有道理但是我想在最後確定版本以前其實我剛剛是看了民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4072.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4097.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
他們連濕地 皮塘 滯洪池不分面積全部都要實質環境影響評估就是不管面積大小全部都要其實這個方向我也是認同的所以我有在考慮要把這一款納入我們的再修正動議當中但是在這件事情我現在希望給主管機關表達一下他們的看法因為裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4102.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4117.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
針對當初你說失地的部分因為當初失地的部分引發最多環保團體大家關心的事實上就是在漳濱工業區那邊海邊外面的那塊失地 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4118.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4142.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那個核酰綠能跟聯合再生在那邊搞的整片全部都是你只要去漳濱工業區的海邊一看你不可能看不到啦前一陣子失火的其實就是那個地方那一種大面積的不管是按照我們的規定還是按照當初王育民委員的規定其實本來就應該要還平但是我要強調按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4145.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4166 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們之前環境部的辦法是不需要環評的是不需要環評的這個要講清楚因為這樣子國人才知道我們到底現在在幹嘛我們沒有吃飽撐著要修法我當初在外環委員會質詢的時候我想彭部長應該記憶很深刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4167.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4190.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我已經跟他說了立法者該做的事就要做但是在最後確定這個有關於是不是要不分面積的把它都放進去因為我其實比較懇慎的其他的部分我都贊成那種民營生用的水庫等等不要面積大小 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4191.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4217.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那個我都贊成但是就滯洪池的部分因為滯洪池的部分台灣過去因為要去面對極端氣候在全國的各個地方其實做了非常多的滯洪池那些滯洪池平常你說就像綠地就像公園你有下去比較深的那個地方你會看到它平常是一個公園的形態它平常是乾的根本沒有水啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4219.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4247.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那滯洪池不分面積大小全部都要進行環評這件事情因為我有去過一些公園它是滯洪池它裡面的確也有光電板那在那種地方不分面積大小全部都要進行環評的這件事情我想聽聽看環境部的意見因為我們本來所提出來的再修正動議是水面型的我們要設置或累積設置的裝置容量要一萬千瓦以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4248.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4259.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
才要去進行環評而不是不分面積大小全部都要進行環評那是不是說針對現在民主進步黨黨團所提出來的11款 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4261.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4285.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那個環境部是不是可以表達一下立場因為如果環境部這邊也沒有顧慮認為說包括滯洪池等等不管面積大小都要進行環評如果環境部認為這個在實際上面也不會造成任何困難的話剛剛鍾委員講的很有道理我們也願意把它納入我們的再修正動議當中好 謝謝黃董老闆 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4290.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4317.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
誤解了副總召請稍等不好意思那個對不起因為我剛剛講的是說母法定出類別認定標準環境母的質法要針對這五種類別分別定定認定標準根據五個類別分別定定那麼這就剛剛可能黃總召有些誤會我們把水面型分成五個水域空間類型之後這在母法裡面通通納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4318.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4335.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
但是至於他的認定標準在執法當中依其他對環境影響的大小分別歸定他的面積跟瓦數 以上說明OK 謝謝鍾太平委員的補充說明接下來我們傅坤祺總召請發言環境部請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4340.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4349.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
剛剛這個總幹事長總嘉賓幹事長突然一個回馬槍等於是執法他們要由他們來定定我們剛剛誇獎總嘉賓 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4353.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4381.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
幹事長誇獎了這麼久都很感佩你的精神把民進黨現在這麼多烏黑的事情你一個人都把它擦乾淨了就又回到發酒前又在民進黨政府手上那這樣子的情況可能跟我們王玉民委員跟盧千玉委員當時提出來的想法可能又有出入又有出入我們應該說回到原來的修法的部分原來修法的部分就已經有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4383.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4402.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個實施水面型太陽能系統太陽能光電系統設置裝置1萬瓦以上或是總累積設置5公頃以上這個可能就要我們就要有相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4404.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4432.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
嚴格的這個環評所以我們現在還是對這個部分我們都是還是很保守啦尤其現在是民生用水的部分拿出來了那灌溉用水的部分會不會有未來啊這裡面有毒的物質會影響到我們的農作物啊這個受災也都可能會有影響所以中委員啊我突然發現這將近兩年來第一次跟我們站在一起我總是覺得厭惡好厭 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4434.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4462.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我覺得這樣子啦我們還是照我們原來的原有提出的修正法我要聽一下環境部的意見環境部麻煩請再二次說明好嗎謝謝謝謝院長環境部說明一下就是民進黨團提出來這個第一項第十一款增列這個部分基本上對於這個列別的對於列別的規範這個部分在文法裡面是定但是對於區位跟規模的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4463.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4470.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
回到實施的這個細目跟範圍認定標準去寫如果我們單獨的把某一項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4472.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4500.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
標準區域規模拿到這邊來寫跟整個體力都沒有辦法符合那只有針對這個部分去向寫那其他的實項我們要不要逐一來列呢所以跟原來的設計的法條的這樣的一個體力完全不一樣了所以這個部分請各位委員能夠斟酌啦後面這個部分在標準裡面讓它有彈性各界有什麼意見我們隨時來徵修訂那對我們環境保護才能夠達到最及時的發揮以上是環境部的說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4507.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4532.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好啦那個抱歉院長那我們就單純的話因為台灣民眾黨提的事實上剛剛嘉賓提的那個只要依照台灣民眾黨的就是設置水上行的太陽光電系統它的設置只要累積的那個容量那個裝置容量超過一萬千瓦以上或者是累積設置的這個面積超過五公頃以上我們就要做環評那你這個不管哪一個項目這個寫的都是水上行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4533.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4559.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那就用台灣民眾黨版本就可以了我本來以為你翻盤毀物結果包藏獲清就依照台灣民眾黨版本就可以了謝謝嘉賓兄請那麼我這邊簡短的念這是王育民委員提案的時候他完完全全用他的文字來說他說因為能源局在114年他所設定的土地面積需要光電的達2.8萬公頃納入了很多地區的皮塘 滯洪池 水庫和餘溫總共面積超過了2700公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4562.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4574.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那麼這些會造成一些破壞跟影響甚至會使候鳥的棲地消失因此目前環境部他的開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準就是剛剛次長所說的那個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4578.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4603.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
它目前沒有辦法維護我們水域空間的環境品質這也是剛剛副總召說的也是剛剛黃總召說的正因為這些不同的水域並沒有標示出來以至於底下的執法它的認定標準並沒有讓入規範所以王玉敏委員才認為說目前在還沒修法之前太陽光電只有在國家級濕地開發才會進行環評這樣是不能夠維護我國的水域空間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4607.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4633.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以他提出了這樣的一個修法希望增加第十一款將濕地 埤塘 滯洪池 水庫跟餘溫都納入環評原來的立法說明就清清楚楚說沒有修改之前只有國家及濕地才會納入環評經過這樣的修改之後這五種不同的水域形態都要納入環評有了這樣的母法之後環境部就要根據這五種不同類型的水域形態 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4634.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4662.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
去修改他的認定標準增列他的認定標準那至於增列的認定標準未來還是要送到立法院來核備所以我是覺得說這種情況之下我們讓他的母法跟子法經過補充之後可以讓子法有所複立那這也是原來國民黨王玉民委員的版本的用意那我想這也是符合目前全國各環境團體跟國民所期盼就是因為原來的環境黨評估法沒有列入這五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4663.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4690.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
只有國家及勢力才要納入環評增加這五項之後就通通要納入環評而至於納入環評的認定標準底下的執法才有辦法附說以上說明我想各黨團已經發言很清楚了行政部門答覆也很清楚了顯然我們是沒有辦法達成共識的我想我們條文就保留院會我們進入第三題發展觀光條例好不好 謝謝 非常感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4727.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4753.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 謝謝 我們今天來了發展公共條例第十一條條文修正常案我們觀光署的副署長黃副署長你署長怎麼沒有來啊跟行政院去屏東有一個會議好 謝謝黃副署長經濟部我們何次長 謝謝黃基部也是沈次長 謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4757.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4765.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個我們第十一條發展觀光條例修正案還有包括陳金威委員21位一樣條文對照表都在各位手上提案的台灣民眾黨團請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4770.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4795.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們修正了這個發展觀光條例第十一條講的是列為國家級的觀光景點跟風景區全台灣一共有13個可是在光電板 太陽光電一直在設立的狀況之下出現了非常多的亂象像雲嘉南濱海國家風景區台南的北門嘉義的布袋跟東池的一些濕地 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4796.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4821.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
出現了兩顆大太陽不是只有一顆這些地方的餘溫的文化鹽田的這個文化甚至冬天一些稀有這個鳥類包括黑面皮鹿他們都不來了傷害傷害非常的大所以我們今天修法我們明定要求以後國家級的風景特定區全國有13個 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4824.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4847.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
如果他以後不得設置地面型或者是水面型的太陽能光墊太陽能光墊他唯一的例外是第一個他必須是面積在一公頃以下而且要經過環評就是原則上以後這13個國家級的風景區是禁止設太陽能光墊的除非有例外就剛剛講了要經過環評而且面積不能夠超過一公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4850.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4876.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
另外經過一些民間團體的陳情我們今天另外加了一項這一次裡面不包括屋頂型的太陽能光墊另外如果是家用的就是它的設置面積是在100平方公尺大概33平左右以下而且你是自己供給自己用的太陽能光墊就不用做環評 排除在外 謝謝這個我們的再修正動議應該有送到剛剛有送上來的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4878.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4893.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
沒有齁 我們請黨團 沒關係沒關係 台北民黨請趕快就是我剛唸的內容我現在送上來謝謝好 因為這個就是柯建民總召剛剛講的家用跟自用的部分剛剛現在張慶凱委員講得很清楚那提案的陳金衛委員不在國民黨團要不要補充請問國民黨團副總召羅書記長要不要補充好 請民進黨團請發言國民黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4904.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4925.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
針對今天民主黨團所接的修正案民進黨黨團認為最後一項我們不需要予以爭定 立場很清楚所以這不會有共識我們不同意好 那副總召請發言今天真的還是 我還是要謝謝一下柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4926.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4951.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
今天真的是溫文儒雅讓我們這個議程能夠進行這麼順利基本上我們還是回到民主的機制還是回到民主機制就是說畢竟各個政黨所有的包括行政 立法有各種看法不同但是我們還是互相尊重照議事的程序來處理現在比較重要就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4952.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4969.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
对于民众党所提出国家风景区还有国家公园的部分是不是可以来设立这样的光点我特别强调既然是国家风景区既然是国家公园我们自然应该好好保护它的生态环境 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4970.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4997.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
不應該用這地面型的光電破壞了整個風景區跟國家公園的美感我們應該要把它守護起來我剛剛再三強調要留給大家的兒身不要我們這一代一代人把整個環境都破壞掉了所以也謝謝柯總召的諒解那我們待會就依照立法院的程序來處理好 那行政部門行政部門環境部跟觀光署有沒有意見要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4998.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5009.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
可不可以先發給我們看 我們都沒有看到條文我知道 我已經請那個張旗愷那個副總長趕快我知道張旗愷您剛剛講的那個委員您剛剛講的那個還沒有再修正還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5013.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5043.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 謝謝 我們趕快發下去那個台灣民眾黨所提的那個再修正好 那個行政部門請簡短二要的補充好嗎因為時間壓力是不是請交通部請交通部表達意見 謝謝好 院長那個交通部門的部分因為他我們目前要不要返品的部分還是參照環境部的相關的一個評估細則跟換位去認定標準所以如果新增的條文的部分是要針對要返品的部分我是建議因為後續這部分我們還是要follow應該是要不要返品的部分還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5043.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5063.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
Follow所謂環境部的相關規定不需要在我們的觀光條例裡面特別去規定我們國家 我們那個相關的規定還是要Follow所以不需要在這邊特別去明定建議環境部希望交通部發言交通部希望聽環境部指導好 環境部你要補答意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5064.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5075.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
是 我想站在環境保護的立場環境部一定是希望這個有嚴格把關如果交通部也認定由環境部來我們會在我們的細則裡面去規定好 謝謝經濟部請 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5077.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5105.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我這邊要說明一下就是說在這個國家風景區裡面還是有一些私有地那這些私有地的話它的太陽會很多那如果去限制說它的那個設置的規模然後這個要去做環評的話我擔心的是說會增加很多的一些民眾的一些不便那也許這個部分可能也要幫幫這個這些私有地的這個民眾也要把它考量進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5106.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5131.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因為如果以剛剛這個民眾黨團所提的那個100平方公尺以下然後10K瓦以下那大概一天大概只能發20到30度的電那個電力是很微小的那如果是他需要用電量比較大的話那反而就是說他可能沒有辦法達到這樣的一個自用的這樣的一個目的所以我想這個也可能也需要考量考量進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5132.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5146.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 謝謝經濟部的說明那各位黨團幹部還有各位行政部門練習我們發展觀光條例還是一樣沒有辦法達成共識我想我們還是一樣條文保留我們送院會處理好 進入第四題我們修正東西都還沒看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5147.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5175.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
你等一下會在你手上那是不是最後都給我們有提修正動議在院會都有機會表決好不好好 因為張啟凱委員說他已經交過了還沒有發到各位手上待會請您參考好嗎我們追蹤一下那個剛才台灣民眾黨團所提的再修正動議好 那我們就等一下我們再等一下請問那個現在條文在修正現在在哪裡在整理部位不 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5189.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5203.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
沒有關係 我看我們先進入第四題然後我們回頭來再拿到那個再修正的東西再做好嗎好 我們第四題 第一次法的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5207.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5227.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
地質法 我知道 我知道我們台灣民眾黨團所提的地質法第五條條文修正草案還有陳金威委19位所提的我們現在請提案的黨團台灣民眾黨團請我們列席的何次長 環境部一樣法務部要參事 好 一樣好 謝謝那我們請提案的台灣民眾黨團請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5239.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5241.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
第十法第五條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5248.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5273.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那個不好意思謝謝院長針對有關於在地質敏感區的部分不太適合設光電的設施這件事情我想這個是非常多環保團體大家共同的呼籲不過因為地質敏感區的這個部分我們在這段時間當中也廣泛聽了各界的意見因此針對有關於地質敏感區的部分我們認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5275.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5299.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
只要劃定在地質遺跡的地質敏感區以及山崩以及地滑的地質敏感區做這樣子的限縮應該就足以達到規範的目的所以我們後來今天所提出來的再修正的動議有牽涉到這兩個範圍以外的地質敏感區就不再 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5300.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5328.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
就不在設置的限制禁止的範圍之內第二個部分是針對有關於如果是非常小規模的不管是屋頂型或者是設置的面積在100平方公尺以下供自用的話我們跟國家風景區採取一樣的規範態度就不在前面的限制範圍之內以上跟各個黨團做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5329.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5352.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好 謝謝 陳經緯委員沒有到場國民黨團要不要補充沒有補充 好 我們請民進黨團請發言都沒有看到怎麼講在修正在哪裡台灣民眾黨的那個在修正沒有看到沒有沒有沒有 我們都沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5355.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5374.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
沒有關係 那這樣子我們在等那個台灣民眾黨的再修正動議的時候我們請行政部門來表達一些意見好嗎我們第一個 中午案子都上去了就跟你們剛剛你們民眾黨提那個再修正案一樣我們中午就送上去了啦我們比你們還快我們請經...沒有關係我們繼續等再修正動議他們現在正在整理 在引...請經濟部請發言好嗎好 欸... |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5380.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5395.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
經濟部報告我們是建立就是說地資法因為地資法它裡面並沒有任何條文去限定說特定開發行為而且也沒有一些禁憲件的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5395.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5425.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以我們是建立這一個增列的文字的部分不宜放在地質法裡面因為它會跟整個地質法的體力會不太符合所以剛剛民眾黨的黃總召也提到就是說這個部分已經有納到修正中有納到環評法裡面的話是不是地質法我們是建立維持它的一致性因為地質法它是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5425.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5446.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
最主要是把那個地質調查的一個結果會跟外面做公告那未來會如果有一些開發行為那我們會提醒大家就是說那個是一個地質敏感地區那未來如果任何的開發行為大家要做什麼樣的一些加強防護的一些一些必要的一些措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5447.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5476.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那比方說像這個地質敏感區的話像有一些是那種斷層帶經過的話那斷層帶經過其實我們在如果在上面蓋房子或什麼樣我們可能要加強做一些什麼樣的防震的一些措施所以地質法它並沒有去限制說我哪些的開發行為是不允許的它只是一種就提醒這個各目的世界主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5477.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5497.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
在這些地質敏感區在從事這些開發行為的時候可能要注意到哪些哪些這個加強防護的這些事項以上報告來 院長柯總統請發言剛才經濟部的態度表很清楚那就不疑嘛那就就表決就好了也不必多說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5504.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5531.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
黃國昌總統請發言經濟部大概講的跟昨天一樣我現在只具體請教經濟部就是說你剛剛所講的立法形式上面的問題那是歸立法形式上面的問題今天坐在這邊協商我其實比較主要是要聽主管機關就實質問題上面因為現在採取的規範模式你其實可以看得出來是分兩套 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5532.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5547.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那一套是什麼樣的情況之下要做換品那另外一套呢是我根本就不讓你做我不讓你放光電板啦是禁止的規定啦是禁止的規定那當然我有開一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5549.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5572.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
例外 面積很小的 供自用的那個就沒限制的必要人家家裡屋頂要裝光電板就讓他裝嘛這個都考慮進去了所以我現在要聽你核心的部分因為其實我們東西出來了以後各界的聲音我們也都有聽所以本來我們認為地質敏感區其實不太適合放光電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5573.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5595.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
但是也有建議說那個地質敏感的區域太陽很多那我們是不是在限縮所以才做這樣的限縮就你們現在實際上面要發展光電的需求來講是不是有需要要在地質遺跡一個是地質遺跡第二個是山崩與地滑 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5596.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5619.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
的地質敏感區有沒有需要在那邊設光電板這個是我比較想聽到你對於實質問題的答覆譬如說 不行我們如果地質遺跡不可以設光電板這樣子我們會有困難或者是山崩與地滑的地質敏感區不可以搞光電板這個我們會有困難我比較想聽的是經濟部針對實質問題所表達的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5623.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5643.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好 謝謝 那個現在兩份再修正草案都已經送到各位手上一個是觀光條例 一個是地質法都已經在各位的手上那 呃 國民黨團還是沒有發言那請問 那民進黨團需要再一次發言嗎對 有 都有 兩個都來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5653.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5668.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
發展觀光條約已經...對啊那這份啊 一樣吧請問問看一下 表示意見 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5670.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5673.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
剛剛說了他說且工資用的太小了他這才20度而已那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5693.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5704.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
主席我們可以請教一下嗎因為現在拿到再修正動議關於地質法還有發展觀光條例的部分他們的面積直接寫進去我們想要請那個行政機關發表一下他們現在再修正動議這個寫法你們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5707.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5726.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
對 那個環境部請簡短 二要發言好嗎 您對這個再修正東西我們看經濟部這邊 他們如果這樣的一個對發展光電沒有影響 當然OK那如果一旦寫進來 我們環境部一定是依照法令來審查好 那再請經濟部請說明好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5728.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5753.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這我剛也說明過就是說如果以這樣的一個限制的話他就是每天的這個發電量大概只有20到30度那有一些他可能需要用電度數比較大的這些這個私有地的地主的話可能對他們來講可能是一種很大的一個一種限制因為他可能還要再經過環評的申請這個程序上可能會很繁瑣 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5753.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5770.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
好 各位黨團幹部我想地質法這個修正案顯然沒有辦法達成共識我們就送院會處理好嗎現在一個重要的宣告我們現在時間已經過了3點07分了一旦達成共識我們院會下午3點要處理討論事項那這次協商的財化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5771.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5797.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
光電三法依照黨團共識院會下午要進行處理這裡有一個程序上的建議特別跟各位黨團幹部來報告我們是不是在這些上述的案子裡面由院會處理時廣泛討論各黨團推派一味發言逐條討論的時候我們就不再發言然後依照各黨團版本處理各條文刪讀之後我們也就不再發言了請議事人員將沒有 沒關係我念完你們有意見可以提出請議事人員將草稿發給大家來參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5799.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5820.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
看是不是需要修改好 請發言好 陳培語請鐘家斌幹掌最後倒數第二行並依各黨團版本提出先後進行表決及處理我們是建議呢每一案都表決啦每一個修正動議都表決因為現在已經沒有所謂的提出先後處理因為我們在這裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5821.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5847.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
討論完了之後是不是說各黨可以針對他的再修正統一都得到表決的機會好不好不要寫按照先後順序因為我們也不會就一個案子而已嘛每個案子一案就是我們先表執政黨再表在野黨再修正統一先表在你們的嘛對不對好的那現在請不急大家都可以發言我們現在請黃首昭發言國民黨團請準備那個我想要先確認一下第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5848.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5861.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
剛剛那個民進黨他們針對環境影響評估法有提出再修正動議那依照議事規則先表決民主進步黨針對環境影響評估法的再修正動議本來就應該這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5864.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5882.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們沒有意見但後面這兩個法是我們先提出再修正動議因為我到目前為止對就民進黨沒有提再修正動議所以基本上我們接下來表決的標的環境影響評估法因為民進黨他們主張他們先送我們接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5882.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5911.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
先表決他們的再修正動議再表決我們在野黨的再修正動議然後再來是發展觀光條例的再修正動議接下來是環境接下來是地質法的再修正動議大概就四個表決標的嘛是吧好這個是我等一下用口頭宣告還是現在就我要再把它提把它文字化需要文字化好我們就把它再把它文字化現在請國民黨團國民黨團有沒有表達一下 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5919.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5945.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
現在因為已經到了處理的時間了我想我們就不再發言 儘快處理好的 我們現在把程序上的問題探討完畢那我在三讀之後 每個黨團一位發言 好不好確定這樣 我們就把它文字化文字化簽了字之後 我們就進到議會開會好 謝謝非常感謝各位列席的官員請回 好不好 謝謝大家 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5948.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5950.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
各位黨團幹部請等一下看了以後簽字之後我們立刻開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6025.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6037.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
各位黨團幹部麻煩大家再花一點點耐心 拜託大家我們現在要做一個小結論各黨團同意在第十次會議討論事項第四案至第七案 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6039.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6063.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
補助型計劃採劃法修正案及光電三法修正案院會進行處理時廣泛討論各黨團推派一位發言每人發言時間三分鐘發言完畢之後逐條討論時各黨團均不再發言並依各黨團版本提出先後進行表決及處理其中環評法先表決執政黨版本其餘法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6065.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6085.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
先表決在野黨版本三讀之後各黨團推派一位發言這就是把大家所有的意見通通歸納如果各位同意的話我們就簽字我們就準備進議場好嗎如果沒有意見我們就簽字來 簽好 簽完字我們就進議場好 謝謝 非常感謝 |