| IVOD_ID |
17031 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17031 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-13T08:38:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-13T12:45:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:06:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd9bd2a7f32a503ebbd0e6bba5c98e1de1914d0d15f34b2c02fcea6bc8aa79978d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:38:48 - 12:45:00 |
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由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
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574.831 |
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由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
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1267.263 |
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好現在開會初期委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議的議事錄 |
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1284.229 |
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立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年11月3日星期一上午9時至11時43分11月5日星期三上午9時至11時55分地點北院紅樓201會議室出席委員洪孟凱等15人立席委員鍾嘉斌等19人立席官員11月3日交通部常務次長林國賢等11月5日數位發展部部長林怡瑾 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1312.361 |
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1341.653 |
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及交通部部長陳士凱等主席李昭吉委員崑哲11月3日報告四項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項審查氣象法修正潮案等案本日會議由交通部常務次長林國賢等報告後藉由委員洪孟凱等14人提出質詢均經常務次長林國賢等分別予以答覆決議一報告及詢答完畢二委員何新泉等二委員 |
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1342.557 |
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1369.506 |
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核心存提書面諮詢三委員諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或為其答覆部分請交通部及相關機關盡速書面答覆四討論四項個案均另定其繼續審查十一月五日討論四項一至四審查定性管理法氣象法商港法傳播法修正潮案等案本日會議由委員沈伯陽等說明提案要旨由數月發展部部長林怡靜等報告後 |
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1369.906 |
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1370.667 |
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好 等一下再確定意思錄 |
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1400.47 |
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1426.747 |
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先介紹在場的委員 侯孟楷昭委來介紹官員行政院公共工程委員會 陳金德主委副主任委員 李維祥副主任委員陳維祥 抱歉李怡德副主任委員羅天健主任秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1429.825 |
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1458.806 |
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企劃處代理處長謝基正技術處曾鈞敏處長工程管理處陳春錦處長秘書處邵志祺處長好 以下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1459.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1465.139 |
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現在請公共工程委員會曾經的主委進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1475.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1492.475 |
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主席 各位委員 先進 大家好行政院公共工程委員會業務報告書面資料請參閱 以下緊究施政重點口頭補充說明第一 擔任丹納斯風災災後復原前進指揮所幕僚單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1493.755 |
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1513.911 |
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以及丹納斯風災特別條例的主管機關工程會協調行政院各部會執行丹納斯風災的特別預算也協助雲嘉南等災區進行災後重建工作目前災區的防護受損修繕工作大致已經完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1515.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1539.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第二 針對花蓮馬太安溪縣社福災害 奉行政院指示在花蓮縣光湖鄉設置一站式服務平台那麼工程會也擔任幕僚單位協助災民發放衛助金 汽車 汽機車報費申請證件等工作另外行政院也成立馬太安溪縣社福災後復原 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1541.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1566.325 |
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重建中央協調匯報由本會擔任幕僚單位第三大院已經三讀通過的花蓮馬太安溪院舍服務災後重建特別條例那麼也由本會來擔任主管機關行政院課證籌備特別預算將競速送請 函請大院審議也敬請各位先進予以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1567.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1582.45 |
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第四推動公共工程節能減碳作為訂定公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項也建立了公共工程減碳參考指引將減少溫室氣體排放納入最有利標評選項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1589.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1597.261 |
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五 修正公共工程金職獎頒發作業要點提高金職獎參選案件的查核頻率 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1600.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1618.648 |
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第六也嚴提政府採購法的修正查案目前已進行預告內容包括改進停權機制那麼也刪除第一次招標應達三家合格廠商投標時的開標之限制改採剛性採購企業範本等 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1621.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1636.236 |
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第七 修正勞務採購企業範本 增訂了品德及忠誠查核條款第八 修正工程採購企業範本 機關應負責AC刨除料之去化暫存 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1637.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1658.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第九 持續建立公共工程施工廠商履歷 至今已累積超過13000家公共工程施工廠商第十 同時建立公共工程參與人員履歷 目前已收集超過16萬筆資料那麼以上重點報告 敬請主席及各位委員指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1666.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1690.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 我們現在要進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員6分鐘委員方案登記於10點30分截止各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員彙整 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1691.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1711.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
休息時間 我會在適當時間來宣布現在請登記第一位 洪孟凱召委發言好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳主委請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1719.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1741.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好主委早主委現在公共工程委員會因為在今年颱風比較多所以說我們有兩個重建條例都要麻煩工程委員會好好緊盯進度跟加快腳步那我想在這一次鳳凰颱風到最後雖然說沒有造成全島全台許多民眾的一個災情但中南部還是確實有一些風雨的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1742.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1760.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那我們也看到新聞媒體畫面就有講到是說到目前為止台南都還是有一些民宅是用帆布他的屋頂還沒有修繕那當然我看到今天我們的報告裡面也有列出這個數據其實是有修繕的那中間的落差到底在哪裡是不是可以再說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1761.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1777.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
前進指揮所協調全國超過290家廠商進駐梅河屋頂受損的民眾來做修繕總是完成超過一千家的廠商而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1778.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1798.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
行政院也補助這個受災居民相關的經費弱勢者完全免費那至於不修繕的部分我們也足以去詢問確認他是否不修繕那麼足以詢問有的是因為產權的問題有的是因為根本沒有住在那裡這個掌握有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1799.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1813.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
因為我們看到在這一次即便是鳳凰颱風前都還有譬如說七谷區譬如說台南市長黃偉哲都還下令全面的檢測甚至七谷區的災民也講說還蓋帆布那就代表是說他其實還是住在那邊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1813.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1838.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他不願意修繕 然後有的不住在那裡因為產權複雜 所以不修繕有的是倉庫 有的是其他的各式各樣我們有請各區區長挨家挨戶的去確認 而且簽名說這個不需要修繕但是 來 這樣子 主委他不願意修繕 但是他的屋頂破損是事實我們也看到新聞畫面 確實還有一些民宅是有帆布那會不會造成公共危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1840.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1862.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以有的是鼓勵拆除如果拆除的話是政府免費幫他拆除免費去化這些營建的廢棄物那如果他仍然不接受拆除那麼也不修繕那麼台南市政府會依據相關法規要求一定時間之內改善否則一這個建築法相關規定會強制拆除 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1862.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1878.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
是因為畢竟他如果說是帆布然後又這樣子的一個這個不夠穩固的情況甚至剛剛有如同您講的他可能人不住在那邊那如果人不住在那邊那下一次有風災來或是有任何情況的話他有可能那個地方會影響到周邊的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1879.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1900.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
對 所以有請台南市政府就依建築法相關規定那麼告知請求改善 否則就強制拆除而讓我們國人更看到不希望看到就是台灣絕對不是一個我們絕對不是一個落後的地方嘛中華民國不應該存在說到這個時間點的四個月後都還有民宅是用帆布蓋著 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1900.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1916.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那這樣好像是我們大家沒有動起來但事實上要人給人 要錢給錢這次的條例600億立法院也沒有任何刪除甚至我們也希望加速進行而我現在還看到是說我們可能針對這次條例還會再提高追加預算 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1918.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1932.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
並沒有提高最佳預算的這個計畫不過針對這個要自行修繕不管他是自行修繕完畢或未修繕完畢那麼我們前一陣子才每戶再加發兩萬塊目的就是希望他趕快自行修繕 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1933.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1961.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 那主委我再請教一下那台南嘉義的部分我們這邊討論一個部分那另外花蓮地區到現在煙色湖的狀況因為在這次的鳳凰颱風裡面又發生名利村有淹水並且液體的事件那我們到底現在對於煙色湖因為我們也看到之前內政部已經有請我們水利專家李鴻元李鴻元也講是說其實馬太安溪的煙色湖左偏波是不穩的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1962.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1974.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那也給予相關的建議我想這些建議其實都應該是當作是我們的工程單位的一些參考但到目前為止講說政府沒有展開討論那會不會就變成還是一個不定期炸彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1976.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1996.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
縣社府農業部持續在監測當中那麼也準備做變道一直上去到縣社府這個地方但是變道必須大概六個月才能夠完成那麼這個等於是狀況持續掌握包括到昨天晚上那麼也發現沒有 主委我們先還原一下譬如像這次的名利村事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1997.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2017.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
水利署在之前其實名利村村長也都一直示警是說那邊有可能會有議題的危險那水利署在之前還沒有發生議題的時候也媒體報導就講是說放心不會有問題但沒想到不到一天的時間就發生議題我跟委員報告馬太安溪的北方是光復跟萬種比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2019.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2040.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
它的南邊是光護箱比較低那麼右邊的堤防會比較好但是因為整個馬太安溪目前河床幾乎跟堤防一樣高有的甚至比堤防還高換句話說只要好雨下來每個地方都會溢流因為整個馬太安溪已經很高所以它就是一個不定時炸彈啊它現在是積極在促進這就是跟現場那個村長他們觀察的是一樣的意思因為馬太安溪非常大 範圍非常廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2046.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2072.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以要積極再輸進 輸進就要有變道因為卡車進進出出有變道所以這個水利署一直到昨天凌晨把那個整個把它疏洪道已經開闢出來然後也加強了圍堵暫時停住名利村繼續淹水的問題那這部分我們會要求經濟部水利署必須非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2074.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2090.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個注意監測那個地方的狀況如果有民眾反應應該隨時改善那我要說的是整個馬太安溪河床非常高所以並不是說一個變道變成一個主要切口每個地方都可能溢過去好 其實主委你剛剛講這個話相對是公允 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2092.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2109.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
就是說不是因為以前我們都存在是人定勝天但是看到現在極端氣候的狀況那還有就是說如果真的有一些地方是沒有辦法掌握那地方的民眾確實有災情回報的時候這就不分中央地方大家應該要共同面對跟解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2110.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2133.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
而不是說有這種我們看到媒體報導居然還有這個水利署官員當然他是什麼樣他可能是想要安災民的心可是如果說應該要把確實的風險也都應該要如實的告知才不會造成這種錯誤的落差其實有些時候錯誤的落差很有可能會導致喪失黃金的這個逃命時間或是黃金的救援時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2134.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2156.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因為水利署也提起動員的幾個河川分署積極在輸進當中而且那個輸進不是3年5年可以完成恐怕10年20年所以現在主委能不能讓國人知道現在也已經過了那一段時間了那現在馬太安溪這個部分你剛剛講有可能要動員要10年才有可能讓花蓮鄉親完完全全不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2157.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2173.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
未來不用再提心吊膽馬太安溪的輸進要輸進到一個程度需要很長時間因為太大了所以我們現在計畫的時程日期因為現在還好過了11月可能不會有太大的好雨第一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2175.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2200.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
官戶鄉這邊的堤防要做成這個超級堤防就是目前是寬是10米 這樣會做50米那甚至在往 五倍之多對 然後甚至在往外推200米的滯洪道所以等於第三個防線 這是堤防的部分那河川疏進加緊進行那會做變道道驗射壺 監測驗射壺那驗射壺因為那個地方容易崩塌 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2201.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2207.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那據我了解目前它的原又 變色壺的右側又少數的崩塌了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2209.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2234.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以 主委 到明年 因為現在11月了嘛那到明年的夏季 颱風雨季來臨之前這一些短暫地級的危險 能不能把它改善我會要求農業部呢 在明年就是夏季 夏天之前六月之前 儘速把那個從底下的便道一直做到驗射火必須明年六月之前要完成有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2235.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2248.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
經費已經到位了 三百億也已經通過了我們要求農業部盡速趕工明年六月之前完成那個變道那個變道打通了之後機具才有可能上去 人才有可能上去好 主委最後一個問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2250.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2272.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
前天看到中油的三接的一個工程也有媒體報導我想你這邊有看到因為這是一個全國矚目的工程從當時的公投到現在持續在進行當中那但是居然有報導出現說有這個中間的過程裡面還要從原本的94億然後一直要增加到250幾億諸位 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2276.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2291.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
看到這個報導之後你會不會覺得很訝異先講 掌管全國公共工程照理講不應該出現公共工程有這樣子的一個離譜狀況我們一般機關的小額採購都不可能更何況是一個牽涉到幾百億的國家工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2292.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2316.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我跟委員報告中郵已經澄清了沒有這回事了這個是他的第二期所以這個是媒體的誤傳媒體的報導錯誤可能有人蓄意放這樣的消息因為預算不是中郵能編的預算他是委託公共工程有查核過了嗎到目前為止如果說中郵有這樣說明本身有看到但我說公共工程有沒有去做了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2319.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2322.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這一個算是一個列管案件重大工程的列管吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2325.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2348.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
本席強調本席是有任何不法我們絕對支持減掉勿枉勿縱我們可以去查核了因為這個本身就是重大公共工程本來我們是管進度管工程品質那如果說這個採購過程如果有這樣的事情那當然公共工程委員會會依職責去了解了不過因為我也擔任過專務董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2351.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2377.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那我了解這個這個不會是任內不是第一期還沒有發報我就下台了第二期的部分他是顧問公司來籌編的好來那我只最後請教一件事這一個工程以我們公共工程的專業來講因為他其實差距非常大如果說九十幾億可以做出來到最後兩百多億那等於是暴增兩倍多的工程經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2379.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2398.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
合理嗎這部分我們會了解就是跟物價或設計沒有關係而且他是跟原來在岸上的施工已經完全不一樣原來設計是在岸上那現在被往外推將近一公里所以那個經費一定增加的經費增加可能但是增加兩倍三倍合不合理這是重點嗎這個我們會去了解好 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2402.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2420.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
請再給本席以及我們交通委員會再後續了解的資料好不好謝謝好謝謝侯孟凱召委發言完畢現在請林國我們先確定醫師路抱歉醫師路有沒有問題好謝謝現在請林國成委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2430.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2437.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
好謝謝主席好我們工程會陳主委請陳主委還有陳副主委請陳副主委委員長好主委最近因為救災很忙那我相信工程會所有的業務陳副主委也是駕輕就熟那我在看這個貴單位過去我一再強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2460.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2482.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
團結合作從要解散到現在我很堅持這個單位不能解散是太重要了那我要接下去也就是我們洪孟楷召委所關心的因為雖然這些是中有的事情可是這些一定跟合約有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2483.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2500.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以現在豐豐一宜94億既然適度的加價到253億當然這個部分當然跟合約有關所以合約有關的東西當然就跟工程會有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2502.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2527.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所以第一個我要請教主委也就是延續中油這個案子剛才你答覆這個也不是你當董事長的時候手花生但是最起碼這已經有三年左右了包括風風雨雨檢舉到最後現在媒體才開始闢落主委說實在的站在我的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2528.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2556.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
民意代表建議你的就是跟你職責有關的現在我們的政府我們賴政府在做事情我坦白講啊該講的不講不該講的偏偏講其實像這些東西就要透過公共工程委員會的專業去談把這個調查清楚到底有沒有你現在在立法院講沒有可是媒體又是風風雨雨 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2558.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2583.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
大家在那邊猜測四次的追加94億變成253億這對政府的威信是非常傷的所以主委你們應該追到這些我的認為跟公共工程委員會絕對有權利去了解第一個有沒有違反合約的規定第二個有沒有這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2585.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2608.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個加價加到這種情形你們最起碼要去了解這些 主委你在詳細跟本席跟本彥特別來說明一下到底這整個經過 有沒有如果有到底怎麼樣形成這個應該你們有這種權利去了解啊把它釐清真相啊不是嗎 主委請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2610.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2624.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
根據中油的說明這個是顧問公司世西在訪價訪價他預算從頭到尾都是253億那中油政風也查並無這個外傳的這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2626.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2649.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
訪價了之後跟預算 所以呢就是從頭到尾都253億元所以我們工程會呢 也會去了解那麼現在傳聞的事情 我們會要求中郵有個說法那來向貴委員會來說好 主委 其實我說實在的這本來你們就要主動調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2651.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2680.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
只要牽涉到合約有關只要是國家重要公共工程我跟你講我們工程會是責不旁貸的是一定要去了解的不然的話就隨便他們怎麼做那我公共工程委員會存在的存在的意義是什麼是要監督這些要杜絕工程品質之外在合約裡面在搞鬼我想這個主委你同意我的說法吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2682.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2702.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
不是啦 要了解啦 好不好好 各位多多久的時間可以了解清楚多久蛤不要說中游說怎麼樣就怎麼樣啦好 我們三個月太久了啦就詳細的集合了太久了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2704.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2724.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
差不多兩個月啦 差不多兩個月啦 好不好因為要成立 要正式成立集合小組啦對啦 對啦 差不多兩個月啦不要拖到三個月 我請副主委來補充好 副主委 那個跟你報告就是說我們有那個知道這個資訊啦有立即先去了解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2724.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2738.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那初步就像主委剛剛跟您報告的那據我的了解他並不是簽約以後再從合約去變更他應該原來就200多億那可能是前面的緩價過程時不時在 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2740.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2757.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那這一塊因為根據媒體的報告好像檢調有介入在調查那我們會依照我們的集合機制去集合但是因為集合跟檢調有時候資訊會被檢調先拿走所以我們在不妨礙檢調調查的狀況底下進行集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2757.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2784.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
其實你們一般來講 主委我特別一再我對於你這個主委的位置大家都覺得說這關很小 可是我認為很重要 你管他關大不大的問題前神台灣多少公共工程都要你們來監督 都要你們來協助不要忘了 你們當初任何國家的重大政策要 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2785.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2811.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
跟工程有關的 一定是會你們的啊每一件事情你們都要了解 所以 拜託六十天 兩個月 一定把他理清楚這樣好不好好 另外一個本席非常重視啊 就是公安的問題可是這個單位啊 就很奇怪欸 七條人命欸 來 主委 這個是誰管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2812.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2835.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
七條人命 除了勞動部要做以外 勞動部要查以外這七條人命如何解決 有沒有跟人家民事的這些和解主委 你有沒有了解這些事公安當然不是你們啦 但是發生事情你們也要去監督啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2837.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2855.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
現在怎麼樣跟媒體的報告還是有一點點出入那麼就中油三接這個外擴的工程大概這個組成因為他是共同承攬那麼就黃昌公司的部分他大概有三次的質安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2857.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2885.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那慈安大概死了三個人然後一個人受傷並不是媒體講的七個人 首先跟委員報告不是啦 下包傷啦下包傷 不是只有黃昌黃昌是三起其他還有下包傷喔那因為媒體講的是黃昌那我們部分會再去注意啦因為你捅包跟下包 下包發生事情 捅包掩蓋這是最要不得的所以主委 我跟你講 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2886.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2910.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個人命關天的情況之下不要去掩蓋事實就是事實所以啊我還是要拜託陳主委因為一向你上任以後我每一次都是在談公安的問題啊薪資的問題啊這個人命關天這可以預防的公安當然就是要公安那我們也承認三接的工程的危險度是高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2913.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2930.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這個承攬三接都是大的廠商大概都上市公司而且都承攬重大政府公務工程如果有公安致死我們會取消他的金職獎所以這些廠商一定跟這個職安這個受傷或死去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2932.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2954.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個參與者一定會達成某程度就是一定有法律上的或者是我想這個公安的死亡那我現在就是說下包商網上的這個資訊是不明確私底下就解決掉我要拜託你們這次調查連這些也把它調查下去第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2955.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2983.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
訪價的問題 第二個就是公安的問題 是不是即時回報其實這種東西因為很多下包商他們都是這樣做喔私底下姐姐說 啊不要不要 不要這麼大啦我就請你把事情改觀 這個也是要不得的所以還是要把它列入紀錄所以要拜託這兩件事情 拜託主委要責成啊看副主委或者有關的那個來幫幫忙把它釐清這兩個部分 好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2984.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3010.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好 謝謝林國成委員發言完畢好 接下來請李坤哲委員謝謝主席 請一下陳經德主委 請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3016.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3034.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
陳主委你好今年來極端型的氣候肆虐我們看到像丹拉斯颱風或是鳳凰颱風對於台方不管是南台灣或是最近的宜蘭蘇澳都造成很大的衝擊跟傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3034.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3054.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那當然公共工程委員會並離職者當然是沒有直接的指揮救災也沒有說針對補助相關的是直接的這樣的一個參與不過公共工程委員會當然在事前的防災它相關的風險評估或是防災的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3055.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3079.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這也是公共工程委員會的一個職責在救災的時候也提供這種掌握相關的救災的狀況以及提供應變中心專業的資源那當然在災後相關的重建計畫公共工程委員會也是扮演著重要的角色那其實不久前我去台南將軍參加一個活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3082.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3100.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
其實在電視上我們看到災後的這樣的一個重建在進行或是在颱風當時造成這些屋頂重大傷害就覺得已經非常的心情沉重但是到現場一看真的是讓你眼淚都快掉下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3101.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3116.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
屋頂受損的狀況以及還有部分的房屋還是用蓬布還是用蓬布來作為一個暫時的屋頂當然當地的民眾也說政府有相關的補助但是缺工 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3117.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3139.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
缺料以及補助的金額大家都還是認為不夠了但是最重要還是缺工缺料這個部分當然公共工程委員會或是陳主委在過程當中都給予極大的一個專業的資源跟協助但是這個政府應該是要再加大相關的協助的力量請陳主委說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3140.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3150.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這次是因為台灣每年都有颱風那關於民宅受損的補助這麼普遍這是第一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3151.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3179.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
原因是因為他民宅受損的數量很多那另外呢大多數弱勢為什麼是大多數弱勢呢因為這舊的三合院那屋頂已經修理好的大概都不會催但是是舊的瓦或舊的房子弱勢的住或是長年沒有修的所以行政院才確定這個透過這個大院通過的特別預算或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3180.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3206.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
特別統籌分配稅款去做一些資源衛助然後也協調公共工程相關的這個廠商將近300家去認養各個區台南重災區有17個區去認養那整個材料呢我們也把它定下來就是分成每坪2000每坪都是2000的3000的4000的都是比一般物 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3207.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3234.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
一般的還低然後來媒合廠商我知道公共工程委員會以及行政院在相關的救災都全力的協助但是我認為在目前已經是11月了還是有災民用著帆布來遮蓋屋頂這個政府是逃避不了這樣的一個責任我認為說在缺工缺料這個部分當然陳主委也 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3235.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3255.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
整合全國的這些廠商來進行相關的協助我認為還要再更積極每一戶都去問到家裡去問然後弱勢的免費幫你做你要拆的幫你拆會計務去化幫你去化要修繕的沒有廠商來修繕那 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3257.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3281.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
還是有人認為他自行修站 那自行修站我們有補住 最後再加碼再發兩萬那我們的了解有的是事實上沒有住或者產權複雜 產權複雜甚至有的我看過一棟房屋是從去年地震的時候壞掉那地震的時候政府也有補住啊那個房子壞到現在還壞 所以並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3282.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3306.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我的建議還是我們還是積極的整合相關的資料來針對相關的災禍這個不能說是政府的責任因為整個下去協助修繕的有的的確不修繕而且請區長每一戶去說你的確不修繕然後來有一個證明這些相關整合的資料還是要更確實的去掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3307.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3332.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
以及對災民相關的重建我們還是要更積極的來給予協助那接下來就是蘇澳的問題了當然宜蘭很會下雨蘇澳更是宜蘭最會下雨的地方我想主委也是蘇澳人那我對蘇澳也非常的熟悉有7年有在相關的這些大蘇澳地區相關的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3333.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3355.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不管是愛丁國小、馬賽國小、南安國小都是由我當年不管是擴音設備、照明設備都是我去裝的40多年前其實我要請教這個主委就是說針對蘇澳這一次你對於蘇澳的了解相關的這些災後的重建的重點在哪邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3358.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3379.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
蘇澳是蘇澳街上啦 因為蘇澳是宜蘭最會下雨的蘇澳有三個區嘛 南方澳新馬跟蘇澳 蘇澳又特別會下雨近年來那附近等於全國這個雨量是最多的那這一次呢有局部的有淹了所以我們立即也動員了國軍然後協助清理那 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3381.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3407.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
有一個下水道水利署會來再繼續來施作另外蘇阿溪分洞昨天院長也正式宣布新增了21億總共75億全部由中央來補助宜蘭縣政府做這個蘇阿溪分洞道那這個工期大概3年左右會完工那蘇阿溪分洞做好之後有山上下來的雨水就可以部分分流到 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3408.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3436.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
南方澳的內皮海灘 內皮海岸所以蘇澳街上就會比較減少這些受災的可能另外就是阿里史溪他有一個治理計畫那個之前已經完成了那抽水機也有了我們會要求這個相關單位那麼繼續去有沒有繼續加強的地方那如果這兩個做完了之後我想會減少蘇澳街上那淹水的這個機率 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3437.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3456.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我想還是要更具體的來協助宜蘭縣政府進行相關的這些災後重建的公共工程讓蘇澳的民眾可以得到更具體生命財產的一個基本的保障主委我現在要請教說我們台灣的公共工程每年植栽 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3458.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3475.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
死亡的人數還是非常高大概都在30人至40人當然歷年的這種直災死亡人數來對比營造業這樣的一個大方向先來做一個比較全部的死亡人數在2022年是320人 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3478.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3496.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
營造業就佔了156人2023、2024年也都是差不多這樣的一個比例是越來越高了到2024年甚至營造業已經佔了51%那我們的公共工程一年的建樹跟死傷的人數其實都還是有30人至40人 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3498.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3524.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們公共工程是國家重要的一個工程的應該是作為一個指標對勞工生命保障的一個基本的指標但是每年還是有30人至40人這樣重大的死亡件數讓我們真的是覺得公共工程必須針對這個部分還是要全力的加以督促其實我們看到歷年這種高低差沒有設置這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3525.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3539.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
防罪的設施件數也逐年在增加每年都有一千件以上那今年的一至十月都已經有841件那很重要就是說歷年的職災死亡人數營造工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3540.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3558.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
它占比很高而且逐年增加那營造業的這種職安是我國職安面臨最大的課題但是我們針對公共工程方面雖然有輕微改善那每年職階還有30人至40人死亡那在審核到的違規樣態裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3560.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3582.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
最大宗的就是高低差兩公尺以上沒有按照規定去設置這種防罪設施每年大概有一千件這種也就是說在公共工程的現場基礎的防護設施都不夠工程會有沒有督促業者做具體改善的作為來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3582.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3610.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
報告委我想這個質案的問題除了公共工程委員會當然督導公共工程是責無旁貸那另外主管機關是勞動部那勞動部主管機關他有他的這個罰則或者是相關的這個這個處理所以我覺得我們公共工程委員會相關的查核將來要跟勞動部來配合然後相關的一個平台聯繫只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3611.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3636.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
公共工程委員會去查核了發現有相關問題了我們立即就就跟勞動部聯合由勞動部治安檢查的去查他那個罰則處分處罰會比較高那第二個就是公共工程委員會裡面我就是查核查核再查核就密集的查核我想來減少這些公安的傷亡那第三個就是對於這些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3639.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3659.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
不設置相關公安設施的廠商我們將來在這個採購的評選裡面我想會調整這個評選分數這部分會相當程度扣分來嚇阻這樣的事情好 請主委加緊督促保障勞工的安全 以上好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3670.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3696.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
謝謝現在請蔡吉山委員發言謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委委員長 主委長有幾個問題來就教主委這個第一個我想過去媒體也都有報導就是有關這個我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3700.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3728.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
台灣很多個城市其實大部分都是這樣從路燈到號誌的這個施工啊當然這個施工路燈在內政部嘛那號誌可能在交通單位無論是中央政府或地方政府那我們會發現這個路燈啊施工施工有SOP但施工的安全譬如說我們常常會有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3729.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3757.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
螺絲釘大顆的螺絲釘為了鎖住那個燈路燈跟鎖住那個交通號誌所以那個那個螺絲釘都非常的尖非常的高那也因為這個螺絲釘所以你看齁這個包括車禍跌倒或者車禍去撞到這個螺絲釘導致這個受傷或者甚至死亡齁這個時有在媒體上報導那也因為這樣子齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3759.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3787.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們行政院的公共政策參與平台連署也達標啦就是說螺絲釘突出結果造成這些生命的危害那所以呢這個本席覺得這個除了達標他要求泡沫內政部在施作的時候要怎麼去注意這個其實公共工程會應該有一個整體性的這個安全防護的準則來要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3789.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3804.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個內政部或者交通部或者地方政府在施作相關路旁馬路旁邊的這個號誌或者這個照明設備都應該有這樣的一個標準 諸葦你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3806.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3833.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
委員的意見非常好而且也是值得重視那如果是屬於道路的施工規範我們會找內政部來討論是否在內政部相關的施工規範裡面能夠修訂或增訂那麼加強比方說要螺帽等等這樣的一個或者是多高不能不能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3837.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3855.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個暴露出來之類的那我們會找內政部就他的施工規範是不是有修正的地方好 所以主委把內政部跟交通部找來在施工的規範當中有關安全的防護把它做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3858.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3882.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
綠定啦同時綠定好之後也要求各級政府從市政府到鄉鎮公所如果要做這樣的施工都必須符合這個規範為了施工規範訂定之後他就搬行而且所有的相關都要還要督促他們來做啦不是搬一個規範大家也要督促我大概給你多少多久的時間你可以來把這個規範做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3885.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3900.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個要跟內政部討論那是不是這樣好不好我先給你三個月的時間那如果到時候三個月後還沒辦法做好那請公關成員再告訴本席到底是內政部交通部不配合還是其他有什麼問題這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3901.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3919.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好我們就是剛才委員指示的三個月來找相關的部會來整個討論清楚是不是除了施工規範之外還有其他我們剛才沒有考慮到的要修正的安全最重要啦特別是這個都過去那麼多案例都因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3920.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3948.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
突出的這個螺絲釘導致死亡或者是受傷我覺得這個是確保人民安全生命財產安全很重要的所以主委再拜託你那三個月之後如果未成那請工程會也告訴本席到底是什麼單位未成這個本席一定會嚴加監督這個到底是誰在拖這個事情好另外這個剛剛大家也去特別去注意到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3951.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3955.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
公共城啊 這個安全啊 就所謂死亡的人數啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3956.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3983.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我其實看一下過去這幾年的資料 我們的確這個人數的確有下降這個沒有問題 但下降到現在大概這兩年都已經這兩年的人數都會停留在一個位階上然後再要再降 看起來好像有一點停頓那這一樣跟剛剛上一個問題一樣 都是安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3984.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4011.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以呢本席會希望說我們這個我看查核的數量每一年4000多件這個沒有問題就是說換言之這幾年下降查核數沒有問題查核數依然達到那個標準但這個案件數往下那我看一下這個造成死亡的案件當中比較多的是第一名是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4015.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4041.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
扣點數最多的第一個是未設置合規格的防罪設施第二名是施工架位於穩定構造物妥實連接或未符合規定一個有48件這個連續5年這個都是最多微施第二名有19件有19件那其實這兩個會跟造成死亡原因這個意外的類型裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4042.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4069.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
最多死亡是最弱所以其實這兩者有相互呼應的關係就是你為施工架為穩固或妥實為設置合規格的防罪設施所以其實這兩個缺失最多也反映在這個所謂死亡意外裡面最多死亡意外就是最弱所以這兩個其實有一定程度的符合那主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4070.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4084.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
你有什麼看法就是說接下來在未來這個數字可以讓他持續下降甚至達到這個沒有人傷亡的這樣的一個狀況除了剛才我提到的跟勞動部來 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4088.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4115.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
來協同來查核之外加強查核頻率另外我們正在公告預告政府採購法那將來的這個採購企業範本會採剛性企業範本那如果這個採購法能夠獲得答應支持通過之後那也未來實施剛性企業範本我們會在企業範本裡面來修正關於如何防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4116.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4141.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
勞安的問題那第二個呢我們可能還需要再加再來研究關於最有利標評選的分數的這個比例就是如果說這個廠商他就經常性的會造成因為這些設施不足造成這個傷亡那如果是除非說不可歸則於廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4143.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4163.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
如果是可歸則於廠商的那我們那個扣分的分數要再提高讓所有的廠商都有所警惕不能做做不好勞安就不要來承攬政府的公共工程這個本席支持但本席也有一個建議就是說我們在做這個施工查核的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4164.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4180.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
如果我們發現老師問題在哪裡那除了在這一個領域加強教育之外也應該透過查核的優化讓大家知道重點是什麼你說你犯了這個錯其實是很嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4180.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4199.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
也就是說如果我們所有的茶盒大家都同對茶盒的缺失都同樣標準的時候它其實在某幾個數字上它就無法凸顯現在的數字都是因為你的什麼問題沒有做好而導致的傷亡那適度的加以來優化 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4201.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4227.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我講優化不是只有處分包括政府去強調教育訓練在這幾個老師出問題的這個方面上面這個其實也是一個 除了剛剛主委提到之外其實這個也是可以考慮的方法那另外呢 第三個現在科技的運用我看有一些地方政府都開始所用AI來做工地的管理那這個其實公共城我應該要走在 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4230.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4258.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所有公安安全的這個相關單位的前面就可以協助 可以配合跟勞動部一起來怎麼樣把怎麼樣把這個安全 現在的科技AI已經運用到很厲害 進來怎麼管理因為安全其實常常是管理的問題那如果這個SOP透過科技來協助我相信他會有一定程度的提升 主委這個我本席建議的這兩點你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4259.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4274.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
一切就是公安還是管理的問題那管理就是跟那個公司他的經營文化有關如果這個企業的管理人員如果是很認真做這件事情那麼這個公安的事故就會減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4275.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4297.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以我們會遵照委員的這個指示來加強跟勞動部來合作好 謝謝主委 這個都應該加強確保這個所有的安全最後一個小小的問題就是本席過去提到那個AC拋除料去化的問題我也知道觀光省我會這一年多來很認真在協助處理這個事情那也有一些進度啦那本席會覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4300.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4312.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這個問題應該持續啦 現在剩下一些執行面包括我們現在要求內政部 交通部 地方政府辦理刨除戰自場選址等相關的事宜都在推動所以主委這個也要持續的加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4314.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4338.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
因為已經相關的施工規範 企業範本都有修正了將來我們的陸基或者是面層都要用一定比例的刨除料那就是下限 所以一定要用那自然就會去化掉一些OK 這個本席感謝表示光誠會有把本席的話聽進去這是循環經濟 我們在講碳排嘛這是循環經濟很重要的一個環節啦好 謝謝主委 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4341.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4363.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好謝謝蔡啟昌委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言好謝謝主席本席邀請我們工程會陳建德主委請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4370.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4393.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
主委長 主委過去工程會可能是一個比較不受到大家重視的一個單位甚至前幾年都還有提出那種聲音說要裁撤工程會但是剛好這幾年台灣發生一連串的極端汽油的災害我有特別看到凸顯出工程會的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4395.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4419.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
看看我們丹利市颱風還有728豪宇的重建特別條例其實中央主管機關救災的主管機關重建特別條例的主管機關都是我們工程會所以可見在自己市的災後重建最重要的單位指揮就是我們工程會 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4420.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4443.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我也感謝我們陳主委在台南的丹納斯颱風救災的時候成立的前進指揮所主委你是擔任指揮官那開始讓整個救災那個效率快速的一個提升只不過有一點可惜啦我曾經在總支局的時候也跟行政院提過這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4445.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4469.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
7月7號台南那個成災啊當然是颱風但7月30號才成立了前進指揮所那主委才進駐成為指揮官等於已經經過了三個禮拜所以下次如果萬一有發生不幸的這種災害其實應變的效率非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4470.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4498.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那其中我們可以看到不只是台南的丹納斯風災零四零三的地震這是花蓮艷澀湖災後重建工程會都是主管機關可見作為災後復建的統籌單位我也在這裡希望我們工程會同仁各位可以了解到其實如果不幸的遇到這種傷害我們工程會其實責任是非常重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4499.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4522.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我也提一點給主委當參考特別條例裡面 它有規範很多種其中有一種 第九條 它有特別提到主管機關應該要設立資訊網站專區這個也是我在質詢莊榮泰院長的時候我記得主委應該有注意到我也要求行政院 當資訊那麼混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4524.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4545.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
如果說很多災民或者是相關協助的民間單位啦或者在救災的需求或重建的需求那我們去哪裡找相關的資訊整合啦所以需要一個官網其實特別條例裡面有寫得很清楚第九條規範主管機關要設立一個官網 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4546.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4574.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那應該就是工程會那工程會有沒有設立啊我舉丹納斯台灣給主委當參考我們去google一下我設一個我google寫丹納斯專區啦又跑出了這幾個網站主委你可以一眼看出我們工程會的官網是哪一個嗎第一個你看經濟部的內政部的台南市政府的你搜尋出來的結果啊都看得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4576.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4588.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
你很難直接一眼就找到我們工程會設立的那個所謂官網其實這個官網應該才是最重要的你寫一個pcc.government.tw |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4591.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4607.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個其實一般人你沒有點進去不會知道這個就是我們工程會統籌設立的一個官方網站我提這一點也給我們相關負責的工程會的主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4608.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4633.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
你要了解到 在迫切需要資訊以及資訊混亂的時候 你要寫清楚一點讓大家可以一眼就看到 這個是工程會的那我可以進去裡面 找到我要的資訊那除了這樣的以外 那網站的內容是否有整合 就一般大家需要的不管你是協助救災的 或者是災民的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4634.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4659.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
等等我給主委當參考主委你大概有看到了另外前一陣子我們主委我們工程會有表揚協助救災的290家廠商並且納入了採購CSR指標我覺得這個非常好因為這一次我們有幾個過去從來沒有的創新的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4660.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4688.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
又第一次使用政府沒額廠商來進廠修繕這樣的一個做法甚至暫停了公共工程讓工班進入到災區未來這也是有協助的而且得獎的這個其實某種程度他們配合度也高我們也感謝他們所以你工程會才頒獎對不對這個其實就是我們的救災國家隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4690.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4717.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那像台南這次的災區那麼那麼大我們也需要說讓災民了解當我有需求的時候 我去哪裡找到這些好的廠商因為那個時候第一個欠不工 欠不人所以我們這290家廠商是不是可以再分類讓有需求的 因為有些有些災區的房子其實還沒弄好剛剛有幾位委員來詢問主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4719.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4742.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
其實還沒有蓋好的災區的房子有很多種有的是災民他沒有經濟能力有的是根本沒有住人他不一定有意願要重建或者是修繕或者是有些有產權的問題等等 我不知道但是第一時間要公告這些廠商優良廠商的白名單這邊也給主委當參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4745.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4754.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那主委對這些對這樣的一個做法我們再次的感謝工程會在台南這次風災的一個協助主委有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4759.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4782.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
謝謝委員的指導關於那個網站更清楚一點我們會來立即來改善那這次很謝謝那麼多廠商親手而且很多都是大廠商那我們就感謝他們能夠放下手頭的工作來進行修繕所以我們這個挑了200指示價有分特優跟優特優跟優 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4784.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4809.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們這個感謝狀它將來可以作為它成覽公共工程去投標的時候如果是評選的標評選的這個方式那麼可以在企業社會責任CSA這邊可以額外再加分那這個加分就很重要謝謝委員一直這個來協助公共懲惡委員會來針對台南甲乙雲林等這個災後重建工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4810.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4830.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好 謝謝主委因為主委 最後時間我再跟主委討論一個事情就是我們所謂的綠色採購因為總統府幾天前總統府在半年前有召開第四次國家汽油變遷的委員會他有提到2030年我們的綠色採購目標要提升到10% |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4832.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4849.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那現在就所以裡面也有委員提出那我們現在是不是就應該要訂出2030年公共工程的一些綠色採購的項目和標準例如有綠色鋼鐵 綠色垂泥因為2030年綠色採購達到10%目前我請環境部算給我 這環境部計算給我的數字我們的綠色採購到去年只有3.4% |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4859.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4878.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
只有3.4%那你2030年要達到10%那可見距離目標大概還有還有幾倍的路程要努力但是我看到我們現在訂的環境部本身他訂的所謂綠色採購他又有很多項目其實是非指定採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4879.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4898.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
譬如減碳建材如果你公共工程減碳建材不是一定要採購那你如何達成綠色採購目標這樣是不是有矛盾那是不是這樣的所謂的一定要指定要採購的建材那這個那這個表是不是這種做法是不是要做檢討來請主委一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4901.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4918.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那報告委員因為利受採購的主管機關是環境部不過在政府採購法裡面有相關的條文就是說如果你採購機關為了因應一些環境保護措施減碳節能等等等你還是可以這個設立一些規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4919.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4944.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
作為你採購的這樣的你講得很好 就會設立一些規範嘛主委 那個主席再給我但是呢有時候這個採購企業範本並不是剛性的所以我們現在已經預告政府採購法政府採購法如果修正通過將來我們工程會就訂定剛性的企業範本那這個採購機關呢他就可以因應他所要求的不管是綠色採購來達到這個環境保護或相關的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4949.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4964.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們再看一下英國的做法我舉個例子給你參考英國就是說你如果政府標案金額達到500萬英鎊那麼你想要來參與公共工程的廠商你就必須要承諾減碳目標而且你要提出那你標下這個工程你如何達到減碳的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4966.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4992.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以這個也可以做為未來我們在做相關公共工程招標的一個規範的一個參考好 謝謝主委好 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝林俊憲委員發言完畢在盧明哲委員發言之前先做以下的宣告我們會在何新淳委員發言完畢之後休息15分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4994.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5003.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
請各黨團助理告知後續相關的委員以便安排他們自己的時間現在請魯明哲委員發言謝謝主席有請我們工程會主委請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5022.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5047.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
陳仲偉好委員長這個我們土木科系的類別的公務員在十年前的新聞已經變成稀有動物了可能會遇過他覺得有這種隱憂會衝擊公共工程的品質那今天十年之後再來看看當時的預言到底如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5048.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5063.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那時候公共工程的一個土木的一個科系的的人就已經缺額蠻多的招考人不來那這樣的一個情況其實影響非常非常大惡性的循環像我們在基層的從區公所跟我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5064.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5081.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
市政府這一級的地方政府的一個公務單位說真的幾乎每一個每一個科每一個局都缺額很多那缺額很多就該怎麼辦現在到底這10年之後你看看改善情況如何你說一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5083.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5101.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
每個鄉鎮公所最高值等9值等所以他不管是建設課長或等等一定都會缺尤其是民間的公共工就是民間的營造業者薪水高在政府機關待遇低 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5101.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5122.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那麼有時候承辦的公共工程金額龐大那麼一不小心會觸發所以很多具有技師資格的大概都在民間這是蠻嚴重的不過行政院呢那麼已經有做一些改善包括類似那種專業專業家級針對這個相關具有這個專業的這個土木啊結構啊他們都有一些獎金啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5131.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5151.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好陳主委其實這個嚴重的事情我們不再討論這個為什麼缺人缺人大概大致的理由十年都不變而且越來越嚴重可是問題是公共工程要做的從地方政府到中央政府這幾年要推的公共工程它的量是不減反正 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5152.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5174.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
而且它的類別 它的項目很多是根本是創新的一個項目所以在這樣的 你公共工程持續要推如果你這些土木科技人你不夠那到底誰在第一線在顧誰在中央單位來去顧這個確實已經不是隱憂了是一個非常明顯的一個問題我們來看看最近十年之後 最近三年最近三年一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5175.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5204.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
需要的人數比剛剛講10年以前要更多因為顯然要做的事情更多缺額更大所以每一年需要的人數剛剛看12年從400多人到14年今年要757人但是錄取人數大概都會缺30%左右現在的一個情況實際的一個狀況是缺人那地方政府怎麼辦中央政府怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5205.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5231.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
你說跟他們怎麼辦他們都早期待嘛所以工程會呢在明年度的預算115年預算有別人預算要跟相關具有土木科系的大學在偏鄉地區來辦理這種土木科的學分班那希望先從比方說花東或者其他地方來辦起讓在地的他 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5232.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5255.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
他可能目前是聘用人員臨時人員他有機會來上這個學分班那協助他取得一定的資格或增加一些技能然後留在比較缺人的地方能夠來在公務單位來做事這個是目前我們跟考試院討論希望明年來進行的主委其實我相信你也跟我一樣非常憂心 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5256.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5276.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為這個散布在全國不管是中央地方政府在第一線的工程單位如果都有這樣的你知道嗎人人對的事情就對了八成嘛那你連人都沒有現在很多的狀況就是找職代因為薪水還是不高嘛你相關背景的人來有時候也找不到你知道嗎找職代 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5277.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5302.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
臨時的都找不到 結果現在開放到什麼地步啊隨便啦 商科 行政 隨便 青菜啦文科都無所謂 我不知道你知不知道這件事情如果現在原本的該公務背景的所有的單位他第一線找不到人 現在很多很多已經不限制要土木像工科的一個背景就直接來上來去補這個缺他最多只能做行政的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5303.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5327.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
如果你硬要他去牽合一些工程類的其實我是覺得這個是非常明顯的一個問題那如果他不做工程類的所有的事情就壓在幾個人身上我是覺得這樣的一個惡性循環現在已經是非常嚴重非常明顯但是不能不處理喔像現在我們有一些是十年以前想不到的說老師現在沒人要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5327.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5343.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你說我十年以前各位有想到嗎老師那時候我們天天在處理叫做流浪教室就是一堆人想要做老師進不去我們十幾年前不斷在處理這些事情現在的狀況是說沒有人要去做老師了 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5343.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5367.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
但是可以不處理嗎我們可以講理由老師不來原因是因為什麼的ABCD然後所以老師就永遠缺額所以我覺得這個土木工程這個類別我知道看到你們預算變了860萬現在在花東地區花東地區跟大學結合因為他們已經不開了糟糕他們本來有這個科系的連這個學校都不開的原因就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5369.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5393.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
沒有人啦在市場上沒有人要讀啦所以你現在透過補助方式產生一些誘因那我們也希望在花東這個有實驗成功而且在學校學成之後能夠真實轉換成我們在公務第一線的人員你覺得這個部分你會有信心嗎因為明年快要省預算了嘛你變成860萬你覺得可以落實嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5395.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5418.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個我們預定要跟國立宜蘭大學土木系合作上課地點就在花蓮車站那花蓮車站因為方便你花東是很長所以甚至他從玉嶺那邊搭火車來到花蓮車站直接上課下課直接搭火車回到家所以這個嘗試啊宜蘭大學也初步有興趣所以我們的課程師資包括工程會本身的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5419.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5448.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
本身就有一些工地班或者一些班工程會會去上課那希望能夠讓花東地區那麼有興趣的人有機會來做這個學問班的課程我們希望是有確實落實結果接下來是剛剛有委員特別說過了重大實災的問題說過了我就不再重複了那這幾年並沒有明顯的一個下降的一個趨勢但在去年的五月份我們特別當時在交通委員會排列一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5449.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5469.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
怎麼樣去解決我們職安衛生的改善跟降低職業災害的專題報告就在交通委員會但當時您還沒上任當時是吳哲成這個主委他也特別強調跟勞動部各單位怎麼樣去合作怎麼樣去確保定一些規範然後要朝向 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5470.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5495.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
工地 我們公共工程臨時在目標邁進當我們不斷邁進了整個這個過程我們真的發覺現在的現在這整個的一個狀況你說意外是難免的但是如果你去經過管控還產生了每一年都要三四十人這樣的在公共工程裡面這樣的一個死亡那這個部分你有什麼樣具體的方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5496.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5513.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
委員報告當然跟勞動部來合作或加強查核或者是在評分的時候如果職安傷亡規則與廠商的扣分另外有個問題我想跟委員報告有時候設施是其中一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5514.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5534.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
管理也是一個問題對施工人員他是否遵照SOP那你有沒有管理到位也是一個問題所以這個問題不單純只是說防災的設施而已關於工程進行中的管理廠商這部分也很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5536.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5549.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
確實包括公務單位的人的管理廠商自我管理都非常重要但我們來看一下我們在審計部這次針對你們要管制工程品質施工安全整體的認為他認為你們的查核小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5553.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5568.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
茶喝小組中央政府到地方政府總共有53個茶喝小組按道理他們在你們的制度命令之下在各個地方不斷的去看但是我們發覺省進步特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5569.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5589.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
查完資料說有六個缺點我覺得這四個很重要待會你時間不夠你回去自己思考一下第一個你訂的規定啊他沒有按照你們規定來選案嘛簡單講選案你們原本規定說你們開始要選就選那個風險稍微高一點的優先嘛所以包括成績不良 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5590.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5614.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這個扣點比較多的廠商啊 你要優先來啦結果咧 他看了一下很多這些查核中心 不是你們啦包括地方政府 中央政府 總共53個他們根本沒有這樣去做 他就隨便那你挑起來就比較沒問題 你查當然沒有問題嘛那接下來等等的 我相信這個我覺得很多的 我發覺這個非常直接的問題 包括你們規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5615.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5633.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
成績的等低及扣點對應的原則啊大家打的分數全國要看得懂嘛對不對結果有些人完全不按照這種打分制度啊我要拜託一下啦我覺得很多的一個這個公安啦 由於公共工程啦跟你的制度落實SOP是真的有關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5634.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5647.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
訂了一個好的SOP他們不去實踐這個部分是非常大的問題我們希望你們能夠能夠把這個問題能夠跟53個茶道中心能夠講清楚說明白能夠落實好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5648.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5672.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
針對查核看看能不能來修正或訂定一些查核的指引就剛才審計部所提出的這些有優先查核的或者透過這個規劃設計等等再做一個指引好 謝謝魯明哲委員發言完畢現在請陳素月委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5686.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5689.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委請陳主委委員長 主委早安我們知道這個統籌災後的復原重建工作是我們工程會很重要的這個工作 業務工作項目那我們看到今年我們台灣就是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5712.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5732.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
7月初的丹納斯颱風之後帶來的環流影響造成7月8號的豪大雨也造成了台南高雄很嚴重的淹水災情7月28號又一場豪大雨造成了中南部包括嘉義嘉南地區很多房屋都受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5734.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5755.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
嚴重的一個淹水的災情那包括在9月23號的這個花蓮馬太安溪的淹澀湖溢流造成了下游的光復鄉跟鳳林鎮也是遭受到非常嚴重的這樣子的一個災情那我們知道這連續的三應該是說三件這個災情都是由我們工程會負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5756.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5774.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
統籌災後的一個復原的工作那我從新聞媒體報導也看到我們的陳主委都有到第一線去來這個在現場來統一調度關心那首先先請教主委就是說在主委將親自到這個災區去 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5776.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5800.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那在這幾次的這個救災包括這個整個現場的調度主委有發現到有什麼地方是之前沒有想到然後不足的地方因為委員的確以丹拉斯來講當然是雲嘉南馬太安縣政府在花蓮那都在偏鄉還有台東那比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5803.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5829.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個東部或南部的偏鄉比方說房屋我沒有去看不知道有那麼多的老舊的房子是沒有那麼無法想像有那麼多老舊房子所以碰到一次大風吹掉那麼多而且很多弱勢這表示說的確我們的公共建設交通或什麼的確要講究均衡就是賴總統一直強調的均衡台灣所以我們才發現是 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5830.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5854.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
是這樣另外就是公共建設 比方說水利治水或者是一些堤防的確有很多我們推動了治水計畫那麼多年了但是有些地方的確是還沒有去做到的地方政府還沒有提出或提出但是經費不夠還沒有安排到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5854.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5873.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
要做的的確有很多要做比方說花蓮的馬太安溪都知道馬太安溪河床很高光復性這邊很低但是你要那麼那麼量那麼多的沙子要紓進也要花很多時間提防要改善那這是這些災難是看到這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5874.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5892.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
沒有發生災難的應該有還有比方說前天的蘇澳那就是一個相關最容易淹水的地方下大雨所以要即刻來解決我是覺得我們台灣過去公共建設已經做得不錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5892.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5907.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
但是仍然要加把勁把那些未完成的比較偏鄉或者是比較沒有做到的地方來加強不管是區域排不管是河川治理等等都需要投入很大的人力物力跟經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5909.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5934.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
是 那這個剛剛主委所講的就是說這個是未來我們需要再加強的一個建設的一個部分那當然我們也看到就是說在這幾次的一個重大的災情一開始我們也看到就是說在0708的這個雲嘉蘭的這個淹水災情的時候我們也看到因為剛開始就是這個電線桿倒了非常的多造成這個電力的這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5935.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5962.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
就是沒有這個電力的供應還有包括斷訊等等就是造成了資訊的一個混亂的狀況那在花園部分我們也看到就是說這麼嚴重的一個淤泥的水災淹後就是水災過後的這個淤泥的淤積問題非常的嚴重那我們也要感謝這麼多的產值超人還有包括這個志工就是可以說自動自發的去到災區來協助這個救災 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5965.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5983.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好的工作那可是也看到了就是說一開始也沒有一個很統一的一個調度就是說人力調度或資源的分配調度等等我想這些應該都是我們在未來就是說如果再遭遇到這個災害的時候我們應該要去思考怎樣做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5983.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6004.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
應有的一個應變當然我們不希望有這個災情的發生可是就是說人家說天有不測風雲我們也不知道什麼時候會再有這樣子天然災害的一個發生所以我們應該就是說藉由這幾次的一個災害的一個就是到現場的一個救災跟發現不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6004.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6033.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們應該要建立一個SOP的一個救災程序因為我們看到卓院長在10月9號的時候在聽取馬太安溪煙澀湖災後復原情形的報告時候他也有就是明確的來指示就是說未來應該要建立一個更強化更完整的標準作業程序形成更加的團隊合作模式所以就這部分我不曉得說我們工程會有沒有開始就是去 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6034.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6050.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
朝這個方向去建立一個SOP謝謝委員工程會本來扮演的就是災後復原跟重建但是有時候也已經是災害當中那搶災防災有時候也會也會參與那我們會累積這幾次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6054.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6072.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個防災跟這個災後重建的經驗齁那麼能夠把它整理出來那將來看看透過什麼方式由各單位來參佐比方說剛才所提到的每天光復車站兩三萬人到那邊他有時候他不知道要去做什麼所以你要給他工作所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6073.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6101.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以那個分配就變很重要那直接在火車站那一出火車站大門就分就很多的攤位馬上按照區域來分配或者是說某些區可能區域的劃分要很清楚各種方式都讓我們學習了一些經驗包括相關的比方說這些廢棄物泥沙的去化他未必是要去化他可以用於重建 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6102.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6126.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
比方說現在泥沙廢墟那麼多可是將來堤防還要做啊還要做安置宅啊就是收容的那這些都可以用所以應該部跟部會之間也要協調比方說經濟部跟環境部跟農會部跟內政部那有些不見得馬上要再走會把它區劃掉可以當作未來重建使用這個都是我們一步一步主委應該是可以統籌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6128.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6143.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
因為我有擔任這個馬太安溪的請請給一個匯報的執行秘書所以我們會協調各部會在執行預算的時候先考慮到是不是其他部會還有用的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6144.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6163.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
是好那本期在這邊就是希望說我們工程會可以經由這幾次這個災害救災的一個經驗那思考未來如何提升跟強化政府在面對天然災害的時候的一個反應跟韌性讓在這個救災復原上都能夠更及時更精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6163.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6185.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好那接下來我再請教一個問題就是說因為我們知道現在目前國內的這個產業因為面臨的這個匯率的問題以及美國這個對等關稅的一個問題所以也讓本土的一個製造產業面臨很大的一個困境那在去年就有一個新聞就是說公共工程中大公共工程不愛國貨所以國內鋼鐵廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6188.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6212.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個教庫所以在這邊本席是不是請教主委就是說我們是不是可以就是說經由政府鼓勵這個公共工程優先採購國產的這個製品然後來就是擴大內需來提升我們就是讓這個產業的一個競爭力跟生存這樣子負責採購法的陳副主委跟你詳細說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6216.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6240.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我也好 謝謝委員的提問我想怎麼樣透過政府採購協助國內產業的進行我想這是政府的一貫的政策我們一定會來配合但是因為政府採購受限於我們參加GPA所以它有一個架構性的問題就是說假設這個採購案本身必須適用條約的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6242.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6265.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那不能排除其他成員國的除非有涉及到國安的部分那非條約的採購案我們有比較大的自主性我們可以排除外商的參加那目前工程會是依照產業北來做不同的檢討譬如說在無人機的採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6266.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6294.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那我們就會把這個因為無人機採購裡面有涉及到歸本國有辦法生產的那有辦法生產的我們當然優先採用本國所以我們會依照產業來檢討啦我覺得這部分非常的重要啦就是說當然我們不一定有強制性可是我們希望就是說是不是可以利用什麼樣的一個條件盡量可以讓我們公共工程在採購上可以來支持我們本土的製造產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6299.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6316.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝陳樹越委員發言完畢在這邊也跟吳立華委員報告我們剛才就已經有宣告在何欣淳委員發言完畢之後會休息15分鐘不好意思來 請何欣淳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6323.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6330.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好謝謝主席我們是不是請這個陳主委也是我們政委請陳主委政委好主委好剛剛數位委員希望能夠呢重大公共工程可以優先採購這個國產的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6344.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6364.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
建材也好 鋼鐵也好 等等因為我提一個例子像我們農業部的林務署他們跟教育部有一個合作計畫教育部他針對全國的各國中小的一個課桌椅的一個更新工程他有下了一個可以優先採購國產林木 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6369.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6391.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個東西是一個雖然不是強迫性也不是強制性但是一個鼓勵跟希望能夠讓國內的產業可以有好的循環這個部分我覺得可以提供給公共工程委員會可以作為思考的方向接著我今天要質詢的是有關我一直以來在講的公共工程減碳的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6394.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6410.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我想主委、政委應該也都會非常的支持為了要降低這個環境影響還有的推動永續我想檢探從公共工程開始政委、主委也一直都很支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6410.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6432.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以我在去年的5月29號要求建立碳排係數的資料庫還有擴大承辦人員基層人員的賠利還有儘速提出減碳的指引還有修正契約範本我在去年的9月30號也再一次的來要求希望工程會跟環境部合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6433.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6452.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
建立的這個明確的一個減碳的一個指引那我很高興的在今天的這個業務報告裡面有看到這三件事情第一個這個我們在水利水保建築下水道等四份指引已經公布那請問一下公路國道軌道今年可以如期來完成嗎好來請副主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6459.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6480.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
跟委員報告那我們本來從委員開始在詢問的時候我們一般設計指引大概只有兩部那現在我們已經努力各部會努力之下已經有四部那剛剛委員關心的這些公路軌道這些在年底前也有可以完成那除此之外再跟委員報告因為有一些機關其實也都在響應這件事情所以他原本不在我們設定那七個 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6481.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6498.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
七個類別的設計師 他們會再增加所以像電力設施啦 或者是煉油廠這些等等其實他們也都陸陸續續在做進行這個努力好 那副主委是不是會後可以給我一份完整的告訴我說哪些部會好 這四個部會已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6498.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6511.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那哪些部會是年底那又有哪些正在研議當中擬定當中好不好我們希望有一個時程配合國家的政策這也是世界大家希望推動這個淨領碳排的一個目標前進那要前進就必須要有時間要有時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6515.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6532.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
第二個擴大這個承辦的這個公務人員在第一線上針對這個減碳教育的訓練還有呢賠利強化他們的能力這個部分我也很高興看到在今天業務報告裡面有但是我希望執行面是不是會後也給我一個執行面 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6533.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6558.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
跟各地方政府的一個溝通協調如何落實第三個修正這個契約範本同樣也是一樣要求這個廠商在設計的時候包括未來施工都能夠落實節能減碳那這樣子的一個契約範本各個地方政府也配合我們公共工程委員會的這樣子的一個要求已經都修正了嗎都完成了嗎來誰可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6563.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6583.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
報告委員喔 那這個契約範本我們是草案已經完成了那我們預計在年底發布給各機關來使用那透過契約範本來引導設計廠商呢朝著我們減碳的目標來前進 以上報告所以各地方政府在你年底的這個範本公布了之後 給他們之後我認為還是要後面要 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6584.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6601.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
跟進各地方政府的執行進度到底對於這個契約範本有沒有修正我覺得是中央跟地方政府大家一起努力我跟委員補充說明就是這個契約範本目前大概相關機關他也可以採取說這是參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6602.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6627.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所以我們要把它改成剛性的企業換本那這一次我們政府採購法修正草案已經預告中將來會改成剛性的那如果採購法獲得大院的支持通過之後我們將來企業換本包括減少這個溫室氣體排放那如何減少或怎麼樣放在企業換本裡面就有拘束力那拘束力到所有的採購機關他必須按照這個企業換本來訂定他的採購企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6628.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6645.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
是所以我也再回過來再請主委要再去要求我們剛剛我一直要求的這個減碳的資料庫的建立跟認證我覺得這個資料庫的一個係數的建立跟認證如果有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6646.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6675.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
大家可依循的這樣子的一個大水庫可以來查詢會更容易讓我們的這一個所謂的契約範本修訂了之後如何讓廠商可以參考能夠的減少溫室氣體的排放在整個工程不管是設計規劃到未來的工法施工過程等等我覺得這個都是必須要環環相扣也請我們公共工程委員會大家努力好不好接下來我就要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6676.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6685.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
主委喔我上次非洲豬瘟在台中爆發個案我們都很疑案也很覺得地方政府處理很爛喔那問題是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6688.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6715.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我想要問主委的一件事有沒有看到這一個新聞這一個新聞雖然是所謂的台中市政府在我們要求中央要求中央是誰要求環境部環境部要求那個廚餘坑的一個防護措施要做到標準的SOP這個主委會說這跟我沒關係但是我要說的是什麼在有一件事情是跟我們公共工程有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6716.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6734.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
當時候在中央環境部要求他必須要按照標準流程做防腐的這個復土那台中市的市政府的建設局養工處呢緊急調派他把台中市的各個這個工區的這個包商的要求他們再土進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6734.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6739.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這個各個廚藝坑去復土結果呢包商再來的土呢不能用因為有酒桃有土崗那完全不能用不是我們認定的這個土房乾淨的土所以不能復土那好我現在就問喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6752.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6765.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
公共工程的相關的土石方跟廢棄物到底哪裡去我曾經就這個問題來問一下我們公共工程委員會的這個承辦或者是我們所得知到的訊息是說這是環境不慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6767.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6788.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
但是環境部說土石方是內政部管的廢棄物是我管的沒錯但是我又衍生出一個問題是在於我從環境部裡面的資料裡面公共工程的廢棄物我們要如何減量為什麼因為全國的營建廢棄物的產生量是不斷的在上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6789.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6800.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
而我們現在的所有的這相關的營建工程的廢機物的處理方式就兩種一個呢也許可以回收再利用要分類一個呢當然就是燒掉那這個當然中間是所謂的這個清運業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6805.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6833.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
來協助處理親業者的這個管理當然是在環境部但是我要講的是我們公共工程委員會是可以從源頭我們既然要邁向淨零碳排我們要求要減碳那我們的廢棄物要保護我們的地球保護台灣這一塊土地我們公共工程委員會又可以如何從源頭來讓這個相關的工程廢棄物可以減量所以我幫你釐清了 政委你覺得可以怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6835.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6853.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
內政部有一個營建剩餘土石房的管理計畫這管理計畫在你一定修正的時候公共委員會有參與我們的想法是在限地公共城或者是營建營造業蓋房子限地就要分類了 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6854.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6872.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
就是可燃的廢棄物跟土石要分開然後這些土石可以到土資廠或者是區域化或者在利用場那時候廢棄物就比較少了這個廢棄物當地的清潔隊就可以到混合爐去燃燒掉這樣量就很減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6872.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6892.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
另外第二概念就是任何東西都可以再利用這些土方也不是什麼化學的廢棄物他有時候可以用來他去做一些高壓磚或者是有些地化地區可以填這個或者是甚至填海造地台灣那麼小我們仿造其他國家填海造地比方說台北港 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6893.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6914.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
以後其他協和電廠那都是要填海這是可以填的那我說比較乾淨的剩餘土石應該正視它的再利用價值而不是認為它就是廢棄物你一定要去掩埋那掩埋也是同一件事情所以我們認為內政部這個管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6914.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6939.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
有一些GPS的管理啦但是最重要還是縣市政府他將來在發使用執照或建造的時候這個廠商就要提一個怎麼去化怎麼管理的計畫那個計畫核准之後才能動工然後你拿使用執照的時候來看你有沒有按照計畫執行如果按照計畫執行那這個死照核化沒有問題這個都是整個在內政部委的一個管理計畫當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6940.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6969.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好 那雖然是內政部的管理計畫當中但是呢 其中公共工程的部分我是希望我們公共工程委員會也要針對這樣子的一個公共工程的廢棄物的去化還有它的總量管制還有它的循環再生 再利用我覺得這個也是我們的一個未來的一個很重要的一個重點拜託主委 好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝何慶春委員 發言完畢現在休息15分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7001.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7003.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7033.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7040.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7482.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7487.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7736.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7740.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
謝謝吳立華委員跟黃建豪委員現在請吳立華委員發言謝謝主席再次有請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7764.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7781.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
委員長主委好我先代替族人就是特別謝謝這一次我們工程會作證整個花蓮的救災行動在這邊表達我們原住民族人的感謝那我今天也是想說來關心一些關於災後的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7783.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7803.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
莫拉克災後重建條例它在103年的8月廢止廢止之後就沒有法例可以來原用所以在105年9月的時候莫蘭地颱風肆虐台東那一帶受創非常的嚴重那個時候就特別的感謝工程會出來主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7806.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7834.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
邀請原民會、內政部還是為鹽坪鄉的紅葉村做了永久屋還有台東大武鄉的愛國浦永久屋那麼原民會也在那次就是去做了一個簽件指引那其中也為了這個兩岸有成立一個災後復原重建專案平台的會議那這一次是繼我們莫拉克災後重建條例之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7835.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7852.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
第二次出現就是丹納斯颱風及728的一個特別條例那現在又有一個花蓮馬太安西煙色湖的災後重建特別條例主管機關的依然都是工程會可是在這個當中我先說明就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7853.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7876.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
提出花蓮馬太安西煙澀湖的災後重建條例就是國民黨版有出現在莫拉克災後重建條例中關於那個遷建的那個條例是一字不抄一模一樣的搬過來那當年受到很大的爭議還好在協商的過程中已經有把那個拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7877.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7905.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那其實最主要的就是說我們要尊重在地人的意願而不是強硬的用法條就決定部落要怎麼走因為原住民其實幾十年來從日據時代都經歷過兩到三次、四次甚至有五次的遷村所以原住民對於這樣的一個遷村其實是非常恐懼的那但是我也得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7906.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7923.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為我們這幾年就是在莫拉克在後重建條例廢止之後有一些部分其實陸陸續續我們也看到他們是處在危險的安全堪育地區像是我接受的陳情像高雄的萬山部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7923.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7941.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
有一些住戶他是位在斷崖所以每一年的颱風整個村撤離的時候其實那些住在斷崖的那些住戶都非常的緊張甚至提出說難道政府不會幫我們著想嗎或者是像滿洲有一個分水嶺當年說要簽 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7943.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7958.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們到現在還在為尋找土地感到煩惱因為我們也沒有條例法源可以來用所以找土地就變得非常的緩慢那像市文部落是在春日鄉的最高處 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7959.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7977.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那當年我也有幫他們去跟國防部協調一個天蠍棚基地那原本是希望把他們遷到那邊來但是因為莫拉克在後重建條例廢止所以呢很多很多的行政作為也很困難那甚至是山地門鄉的德文部落有一些目前都還是在危險勘預地區嚴平鄉的紅葉村也有一些還沒有完成所以我在這邊只是想請教想拜託一下我們的陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7988.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8010.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
就是有沒有可能再來開設一個原住民族地區災後復原重建的專案平台會議因為從這一次我們北岸的這個萬榮鄉的名利村我們想都想不到那我們就可以想像得到有很多的災害在這種極端氣候之下我們不知道它什麼時候發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8011.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8019.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
所以預防我覺得變得相當的重要所以我不曉得說主委您對這個有沒有可以支持的意見謝謝委員 目前關戶鄉的中紀載是由內政部在負責那他也到關戶鄉辦了很多場說明會那聽取這個關戶鄉鄉民包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8039.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8067.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這個當地的部落還有這個相關的這個災民那麼有找到兩個地方一個是舊的台塘的宿舍那個宿舍是應該是三層樓但是底下它是有營業但是上面也本來是員工宿舍大概應該有差不多20戶左右另外也是在應該是大晉國小附近有一塊地大概1.5公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8068.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8089.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那會蓋這個中繼宅讓目前房子已經完全沒辦法住的買起來的那些作為中繼宅那至於說將來那個耕地比較重災區那裡土砂啦有的已經到6米高4米高了那些變成一個很頭痛的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8091.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8100.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以是不是要有什麼地方可以提供給族人或當地災民作為異地耕種的地方這個是可以思考的方式我覺得這個部分中繼宅目前已經成為共識了也取得政府的一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8110.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8134.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那我想就是尊重在地人的意見那我只是說針對那一些在莫拉克災禍重建條例廢止之後依然處在危險安全抗議地區的我們是不是可以請工程會來主責要做一個災害復原重建的一個平台會議邀請這些原鄉的公所還有我們中央有關的機關一起來重啟這個會議來幫助他們 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8140.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8145.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
主委現在秀出來這些包括高雄茂林高雄屏東台東都有這些我們還沒有處理好我們願意來跟高雄還有屏東縣市台東屏東縣市政府來商討看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8158.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8181.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那不好意思主席再給我一分鐘因為我還有第二個問題要請教這一次我其實只是要表達就是我們這一次有兩個條例特別條例那他到底他適合的適用的這些災區我不曉得有哪些啦那主委您是不是可以簡單的講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8182.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8206.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那是風災的特別條例有把直轄市直轄市的園民鄉園民就是茂林、南麻寨、桃園那個有納入我是希望說如果他是屬於原住民族地區但是沒有被行政院列為災區我希望工程會也盡力協助好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8208.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8221.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟原民會來討論 923這個花蓮馬太安菸澀湖溢流事件其實當天9月23在地的萬榮鄉族人就有跟我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8222.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8250.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
麻煩也請我們的水利署把我們萬榮鄉這邊北岸的戶體加高所以我9月24號我就有發公文我特別有去提到說請貴署盡速強化萬榮鄉境內堤防結構同時增設臨時防災設施如太空包防汛塊提升防洪減災能力保障萬榮鄉的部落安全但是很遺憾就是這個破口就是終究還是釀災了 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8252.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8277.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那其實復興區高雄的復興區本來我接受村長的陳情這個也是一個破口他一直拜託我說委員你可不可以拜託河川署趕快幫我們做一個護岸三個月內完成很高興終於保全了那個第30的十幾個住戶這個是在哪一個鄉 高雄的桃園區復興裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8278.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8298.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好 那我現在要講的是說我們其實跑地方 我們什麼都有接觸我一直強調 現在的河川 在莫拉克之後真的啦 坑溝已經變野溪 野溪已經變河川了啦所以 林保署下來 水保署下來 水利署 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8299.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8323.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
真的需要好好的來重新做一個治水專案會議編足經費因為我們是什麼案都接什麼部會都接觸我們真的可以感受到有一些他們真的沒有能力所以呢我覺得極端氣候影響下誰曉得當年玉穗溪氣象說25毫米的雨量竟然讓明霸克路橋斷掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8325.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8353.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
極端氣候下我們真的不知道災害在什麼地點什麼時候會發生所以我覺得當我們去陳情按揭來去請我們的部會幫忙的時候我特別希望這一方面的一個治理經費是充足的不曉得主委您的意見如何因為馬太安溪是這個河床已經很高了再加上這次把這個堰舍湖的 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8357.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8384.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這個疫流的災害它上游的土石已經很多都下來都已經比堤防高了所以目前所要的工作是輸菌因為只要一點雨量它就會易開了所以要加緊輸菌才是最重要的工作謝謝主委 因為時間的關係我們還有沒有討論完的再提供我書面報告或者是到辦公室來討論好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8385.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8404.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝吳立華委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言好謝謝主席主席一樣我們要請這個工程會陳主委請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8412.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8437.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
委員長 主委早 主委這個前幾天我想我們工程會有修正一個採購評選委員會的評分標準那這裡面包含的說採購加分項目包含這個依照丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原工作的廠商來依照貢獻程度來採購加分那我也跟你們調閱了一下有參與到這個所謂728跟這個丹納斯颱風的災後復原工作的廠商的名單 其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8439.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8463.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
都非常有名都非常大間非常多廠商跟企業參與包含說慈濟也有參與那現在正在這個風口浪尖上的黃昌營造他也有參與那還有很多的公司都有參與那我要問的是說今天把這個丹大士颱風列入所謂加分項目那未來其他的災後復原工作參與的廠商要不要也加入以及包含說像那個後來這個馬太安西岡菸澀湖的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8467.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8491.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我看到這個廠商名單裡面有很多據我知道的也很多也參與了那個這個花蓮的災後重建的工作他們也捐了非常多的積蓄到現場去救助等等的所以我要問的主委意思是說今天特別把這個丹拉斯颱風728豪雨的災後復原工作列入加分項目那未來參與其他政府相關災後復原工作的廠商會不會列入這個加分項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8492.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8515.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
報告因為當初這個嘉南這邊房屋受損的數量很多總數大概6萬那真正需要去修繕的也很多所以一時之間找不到那麼多廠商來做所以才工程會協調中央很多部會每個部會他們都有很多公務工程在做所以請這些廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8515.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8537.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
集合起來分配到各區包括嘉義縣應該有8個鄉鎮台南市有17個區分配下去有的是做事者他們免費幫他做那有的是透過攤市政府來媒合來媒合所以收入錢也比較少那因為他們停下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8538.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8563.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
本身的工作所以我們才說他這個有盡到一定的企業社會的責任那原本我們的評選辦法裡面針對企業社會責任就要考量了啦所以特別針對這290家那麼頒給這個感謝狀那將來他在參與公共工程投標如果是評選的時候就給他加分數未來如果類似情形工程會省長會這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8565.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8592.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
未來如果類似他透過我們一定的程序來招募來協助那麼而且來評選那我們也會這樣做因為我具體來講就是包含今年光是這兩一個就是丹納斯很嚴重嘛再來就是我們那個馬太安溪那個驗生壺事件後也很多的廠商投入機具我只是說要當然要放入CSR標準這都沒有問題我沒有意見我覺得很好那問說什麼樣的事件跟什麼樣的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8594.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8614.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
參與救難的廠商救災廠商或復原工作廠商他們能夠因為這樣子被加分我覺得這是一個標準啦我覺得這個是工程會議要講清楚的因為丹納斯的時候因為都有跟個別部會的部會跟廠商之間都有聯繫而且很明確有簽約有簽約所以這樣去做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8617.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8644.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
感謝然後加分是都很清楚那馬太安基運社會因為是因為狀況因為受災很嚴重所以各地都進去大小廠商都進去因為那種個人戶企業社甚至很大的廠商也有都進去這部分我們可能要研究一下因為當時沒有很確定說哪一個廠商做什麼事情說哪幾天並沒有只是很感謝那麼多廠商進駐還有很多各縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8645.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8664.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
各縣市的環保局的清潔隊也都進去我們看很多現場是很多所以這部分我們在研究我的意思是說如果類似將來還要到動員廠商放下工作去做我們特別指定的工作的話那我們會比照這一次來考慮加分的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8665.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8682.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好 主委謝謝 因為我今天會特別提這也是因為在這個290之間廠商裡面當然他們除了去幫助過丹納斯颱風之外也有很多廠商也跟我反映他們其實一樣的名單裡面他們也重複的在這個提供重大機具投入到這個花蓮的這個問題裡面 所以他們覺得說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8683.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8696.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
當然那颱風這樣子的一個狀況因為它的確是台灣百年來的颱風造成這麼大的損害馬太安溪這個驗射物也是我們以前沒有預想過會發生這樣的事情所以大家的確出錢出力了這麼多企業投入那如果這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8697.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8713.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對他們來講既然談到裁縫可以加分那如果去投入花蓮的這部分也可以加分或是未來萬一不幸又有其他事件可以加分那我覺得這個標準大家希望說能夠有一個比較明確的方向依據大家可以更樂意的去幫政府去處理這種宅要復原工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8715.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8739.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
再來我看一下我們原物量上漲問題我想大家都很關心這個問題其實台灣這幾年公共工程的流費標的情況也非常嚴重包含說比較重點當然是我們交通部跟經濟部幾項到底這種超過流費標三次然後漲標五次以上的絕標的案件未來到底我們工程會要怎麼樣面對或是說我們這跟各部會溝通的時候預算上有問題還是說因為預算執行期程拉太長 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8740.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8756.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以一開始設定的金額是這樣子那後面因為物價上漲所以他必須去面對要不斷的追加不斷追加包含我們剛剛提到的台北台中都有高雄的捷運台中捷運都是類似的問題所以不知道工程會在這種預算的節制上或管制上有沒有什麼樣的想法副主委來跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8760.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8784.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我想有關公共城廢標流標的確實是一個很嚴肅的問題當然工程會有做系統性的分析大概牽涉到經費不足或者是合約條款不合理、工期太少大致上都是這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8785.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8814.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
目前我們協助的這個模式基本上面就是說如果比較簡易的當然就有各個他的主管機關自己去處理嘛那如果他的這個金額超過五千萬那麼留標兩次那原則上我們就從這案子裡面那我們會個案來協助所以目前我們會把我們個案協助裡面再發現的問題再回饋給其他的機關大概是透過這樣一個循環的方式來處理那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8815.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8829.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個會友辦問題當然也有牽涉到整個因為我們政府採購要必須要三家才能開標的問題所以我們系統性的來處理來副主委跟主委我也一樣就是說其實這個問題我希望公司會積極一點的角色就是說我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8830.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8853.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們光列這幾項最大問題是什麼就是它的工作期程很長就是我們公共工程都拖很久10年20年至少都這樣很多大型工程都這樣所以10年前的物價跟10年後的物價當然不能比它當然後續不斷在追加所以我希望工程會至少在扮演的管控的角度上至少讓它各單位能夠把這個期程縮短一點不要說每次 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8854.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8861.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
蓋個捷運 蓋個什麼東西都要蓋好久好久那當然你錢就一直不斷增加嘛永樂基會縮短各單位在做事情的這個時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8862.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8886.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個也是委員點到非常核心的問題就是說我們事後去處理一些禮約爭議大概最核心的問題是工期的問題那工期機關當時在定工期的時候有的時候他因為很多因素嘛他可能政策的問題或是未定的問題那很多是因為他施工過程裡面要變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8887.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8906.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
或加上其他的很多因素所以供期就變成是一個非常嚴肅的問題所以我們也會透過一個在指引的方式就是說你當時在這個設計的時候那個供期的那個訂定要非常的準確那就可以減免後面的一個相關的爭議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8907.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8928.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好啦最後剛剛那個富水你也提到這個所謂的三家廠商開票的規定喔之前我們工程會本來是預計想要把這個三家的規定把它刪掉然後提出新的採購法那本來是預計要4月要預告草案那我不知道現在這個草案到哪裡了已經預告了為什麼會議記錄不能提供給我們來參考咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8930.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8955.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個我們有跟本席有 我們9月10號有去含有去跟公眾要資料 說辦公座談會我們11月才預告 最近才預告因為有修正 然後也要簽到行政院來通報然後預告 所以11月才預告好 我們希望這個快一點啦因為這個當初4月希望預告嘛現在又過了半年 到現在才開始有這個相關的進度因為確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8957.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8976.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
三家的這個問題 我們需要幫 也要幫業者想一個問題 像大家怕圖利嘛我們現在就是怕圖利 所以當時還有所謂三家的問題那既然要把這個東西拿掉 那怎麼樣避免業者陷入圖利的陷阱裡面我覺得這是共產會要做的事情 就是機關如果編列預算的時候就要公告啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8978.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9002.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
讓業者盡快知道這個機關有這樣的採購計畫那將來他也要徵詢相關業者的意見讓這個透明公開然後讓業者提早知道準備標期我想就減少這樣的會圖利或者僅限於特定人來標的問題那這個到時候採購法也請委員能夠大力支持好 謝謝 謝謝主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9005.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9008.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請徐護魁委員發言謝謝主席有請我們陳主委請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9029.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9046.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
委員好 主委早 主委辛苦因為我在前陣子常常跑台南後面又到花蓮去救災的一個工作很辛苦那昨天這個宜蘭有幾個鄉鎮面臨這個好雨的情形主委有沒有接到通知 還要接完沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9050.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9066.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我昨天在宜蘭大概有幾個鄉鎮蘇澳東山羅東五結還有西北的篆圍大概比較靠海的地區就是有些災情但是嚴重程度不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9068.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9094.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
主委我想這個我從去年一直都有在行政院開會的時候還有包含我們自己委員會都有特別提到我們現在這個極端氣候的一個嚴峻的一個挑戰那尤其我們現在這個好雨還有這個颱風的這個清洗都不可避免但是我們現在在整個這個不管是中央的指揮體系還是地方的一個救災系統我都覺得這個界面上面還是有存在一些問題存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9095.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9100.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
阿諸葦自己從台南跟花蓮這個救災裡面有沒有發現什麼樣的問題需要解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9102.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9129.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
目前就災害應變中心來講主責的是內政部行政院也有災防辦公室的確面對各式各樣的災害天然災害或者是說一些像化學工廠的大爆炸或者是氣爆之類各式各樣的災害如果說有一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9130.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9148.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
或機構專責統合各種災害應變或搶災或者是當作這個災害應變中心的一個專責的比較專責的機構啊我想也是可以評估的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9149.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9171.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
主委我因為我自己過去也在屏東縣政府服務過那我們那時候也常常會有一些防災演練當然剛剛主委講的我們這個災害的這個類型都大不相同但是我們是期待從中央到地方應該是緊密合作分工負責把這個災難能夠盡快把它處理掉讓我們的傷亡降到最低我想這是大家共同努力的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9174.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9182.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
各式各樣的災害那除了中央會成立應變中心之外基本上就是各式各樣災害縣市政府地方也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9184.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9210.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這個災害應變的指揮官 也是要責無旁貸那個縣長或市長就是指揮官各式各樣的災害只要發生在這個轄區之內他都應該主動來救災來應變這個是我們既有的災害防救法那麼體系是非常清楚主委所以我一直提出說我們應該有沒有考慮要成立一個防災部這個尤其面臨現在複合型的一個災害日趨頻繁部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9212.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9233.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那個主委願意支持這樣的一個想法嗎要重要是大院要支持這個要成立一個部就可能這個原額預算分配啊或者是說部會的的數目啊那個都必須調整這是大事情那當然如果有這樣這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9235.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9249.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
防災部是不錯啦我個人是傾向支持啦不過這個是一個必須茶葉政黨能夠協商都同意才有可能這個主委改天有機會我們也一起來努力看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9250.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9278.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
主委那另外我想這個剛剛我們也特別提到公共工程流標的一個問題嚴重性那我想我們也檢視了一些去年各單位的一個工程類的一個採購的案件其中廢標兩次以上的比例勞動部有高達30%以上的案件都流標兩次那我們屏東縣政府也有一部分案件都流標那我想這個部分每次在委員會主委也是都會問這個問題主委那目前有沒有比較積極的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9280.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9308.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
目前就是我們的政府採購法已經預告會修正會刪除第一次決標的時候要有三家才能夠決的這樣的限制啦那當然也會同時有一些配套措施要求機關讓預算通過之後就必須予以公告那電子採購等等讓他更透明讓所有有興趣的產商更早知道有相關的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9310.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9335.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
其實我們都樂見你們的努力方向但是現在因為我們也碰到我們很多的機關包含這個營建營造廠商大家都很困擾事實上真的整個預算編列上面你們有你們的這個單位有單位的想法但是就業者來講他們工作量現在也很多他們不是不幫忙是真的有些有困難度那這樣一個困境我們要怎麼樣去落實去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9337.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9361.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
副主委也提到就是物價或預算編列那工程會站在一些列管公共工程的基本設計審查的機關那包括費用那現在呢很多公共建設都本身預算裡面就有編的物條那剛才有提到說工期太長那太長那個整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9362.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9387.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
物價就會波動更大所以將來我們公共工程會在審查這個基本設計的時候應該也要詳細的看他這個物條的比例跟他的工期是否合理的對應關係如果說工期很長你的物條編得很少那可能我們必須請他應該在在比較合時的來編列這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9388.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9405.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
物價的問題那缺工也是個問題因為我們現在移工申請也不是那麼百分之百都能夠符合業者的需求另外就是三次這個三家以上這部分也是一個問題那我們會盡量來克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9408.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9424.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
主委我想我還是要再提醒一個很嚴重的一個問題現在全國這個營建土石那個營建剩餘土石方這個非法棄置甚至到目前為止這個土質廠沒辦法去承受這個問題也造成很多的觀光工程流標不敢標主委有沒有注意到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9426.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9452.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
公共工程不敢標 很多建商不敢蓋房子那這一部分我認為營建剩餘土石方或營建廢棄物我剛剛提到在施工現場就要分類了把一些可燃的廢棄物分類出來其他比較乾淨的營建剩餘土方或者是磚瓦這一類這一類都可以再利用他並不是什麼化工廠的有毒的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9454.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9472.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
廢棄物本身都可以再利用所以我們社會上來看這個銀件土方的時候應該不要那麼負面的去看他不是說一定要拋到太空去他一定要有個去處所以比較務實的他應該應用在可以應用在天海 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9474.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9498.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
或者是有些地區本身就空洞了經過縣市政府核定他就可以去填他並不是說會造成土地這個受影響的一些化學的廢棄物所以這部分呢是應該這樣來看待不要說一碰到問題所有人說這個是廢棄物一定要去化或一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9499.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9514.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
拿到哪裡去 本身在當他申請這個建造的時候我們都要求廠商就要提出這個營建廢棄物的去化的計畫審核通過之後才能動工嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9515.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9539.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
等到他蓋好房子要拿使用執照的時候也必須審核他是不是有如實按照這個去化的計畫來進行那同時也監視車輛都有設這個GPS來管制所以我們認為營建土方的問題我們要加強力道來去化不管是再利用還是填海那個都應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9541.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9562.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
國人都應該正面來看到看待這個問題因為你工程在進行不可能沒有這些營建剩餘土方或營建剩餘的這些磚瓦的廢棄物主委我想今天我特別提出這個問題就是發現我們目前這個很多坊間的公共工程包含剛主委講的各自的健身都面臨這樣的一個困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9563.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9585.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那我們沒有趕快把標準定出來 SOP執行定出來這後面真的會越來越慘 你覺得土資廠根本他不敢收他也收不了 他吃不下跟委員報告 基本上這個還是各縣市政府要想辦法 該縣市他也有一些土資廠頭頂的設置 要這些量 他也有一些計畫那 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9589.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9610.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
只要縣市政府 每個縣市政府他都有籌備這樣的去處 佔置或再利用這個問題就比較可以解決主委我也擔心以後我們屏東包含我們未來有高鐵有捷運這些重大工程 告訴你這個都影響到後面的發包的一個問題主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9613.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9618.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
謝謝徐富奎委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言謝謝主席 也要麻煩邀請我們陳主委 請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9639.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9661.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
主委好 主委午安這個時代在進步啦那我們人啊這個十一住選有各樣的一個東西也都會隨著時代去做更替嘛那我想這個在公共工程也一樣啦一定會隨著時代我們所採購的東西或者是我們的一些規格其實都會順應時代去做調整啦但是有一些新的東西這個要公部門採用的時候總是會有一套流程比如說從我們的這個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9667.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9674.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
或是驗證到未來的這個普遍的應用大概是怎樣的一個流程這樣子就是創新的產品或是營養簡單就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9689.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9716.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
公務員報告我們大概幾個方式第一個我們有那個平台創新的平台新的材料新的工法那可以到創新的平台讓各機關的了解然後去評估去使用那第二個是說我們在採購個案的採購上如何導入創新的這個新材料新工法我們可以是用因為現在工程大概都是用最有力標那有些還是用統包 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9717.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9740.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我想請教是我們是怎樣的一個驗證的一個過程是不是先有驗證這個東西它是可行的那它是可能符合我們的要求的時候那我們可能才會來做後續的一個擴充的採購原則上大概是這樣子嘛對不對是就是說工程要用新材料一定要滿足工程的本身的基本需求和安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9740.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9757.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
對 所以驗證非常重要才會去做後續的擴充所以我今天其實想要用這個問題來引到這個潛艦國造我們國防的潛艦國造的一個問題來請教一下主委的一個意見因為我們現在原型艦海昆號就是在一個驗證的一個過程當中嘛那其實後面的7艘的擴充 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9759.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9764.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
2加3加2的擴充件 原型件這個驗證之後那才會有2加3加2這可能比較符合我們的一個工程 過去政府在做一個新而沒有嘗試過的東西所謂必經的流程所以說現在我們的原型件目前還沒有完成海測對不對還沒有完成海測也就是說就像剛剛講的一個創新的產品他可能還沒完成驗證那後續的推動 其實像國防部他已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9787.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9802.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
可能先有做先簽約了那你會建議怎麼樣去做後續的在我們公共工程的一個經驗那套用在國防採購上面的話他大概是要怎樣的驗證的一個完成之後你才會建議國防部去做後續的一個整體的一個推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9806.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9826.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這是國防部的攸關國家安全的採購他有特殊性 這個我不否認他就有一幫我們工程會的經驗尊重國防部的看法另外這個並不是創新的產品 淺見這件事情我們沒有做過我們台灣是落後了所以我認為無論任何困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9830.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9855.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
台灣都要努力有自治前進的能力這是我作為一個國民的態度我們剛剛講到驗證這個部分你認為說怎樣的驗證叫做驗證完成符合我們的驗證的標準然後才可以建議去做後續的一個擴充以避免後續的擴充可能在一開始的設計上面可能是有缺陷的可能需要去調整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9857.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9875.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
根據他的國防需求那麼他委託或者是採購的這些潛艦他一定有合約根據他的功能測試那如果合於他的需求那他們會去做決定在符合相關採購企業的方式之下所以主委不太敢回答啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9877.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9893.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
不是這個怎樣叫做驗證完怎樣可以去做這位公共工程委員會好像不太敢做這方面的一個解釋完全是國安部的需求所以以後各個機關也可以說是他們的需求然後自己去做一些標準我的理解好像會變成這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9894.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9911.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
好沒關係沒關係我再問下一個問題啦我再問下一個問題反正這樣子鬼打牆也不一定會願意說更多的話那您可能也有看到這個新聞潛艦的違約我們一天交艦的約是17萬嘛那我們的公共工程有例外情形有分兩種嘛一種就是標準的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9914.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9928.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個公道價譬如說延遲一天的話可能是契約金額的多少另外一個部分我們也可以制定嘛對不對國防部他可能制定那我們原本上我們採購法上面的違約的每日的違約金額大概是採購金額大概多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9930.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9946.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
但是他有個上限原則上是千分之一嘛然後造價可能是上限的百分之二十但是他還要看說到底違約的部分是牽涉到對他可能有國防有特殊性我們都認同啦所以說國防部他有另外他去訂一個規定所以他是17萬17萬大家都應該都聽過嘛那17萬的部分他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9950.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9960.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
計算的一個基準就是說它的工程造價大概是用200億去算那17萬大概占200億的多少你們有沒有算大概有沒有一個概念我們把這個萬去掉17萬扣掉一個萬就17200億去掉一個萬大概200萬所以就17比200萬大概是十萬分之一的日圖約金 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9979.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9991.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
大概是這樣子我應該沒有算錯大概是十萬分之一我們公共工程委員會可能有許多的經驗你們有沒有聽過有比十萬分之一還低的日違約金的罰款機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9993.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10019.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
有沒有聽過啦 有沒有聽過有沒有遇過沒有 我先確認有沒有遇過 有沒有聽過啦因為國防有國防的特殊性我們都認同他有可能依照他實際的需求去訂定相關的合約這都合法我們尊重我只想問我們公共工程委員會有沒有遇過比十萬分之一還要低的一個日違約懲罰金有或沒有而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10021.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10036.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這個我們去了解一下啦你也不確定有沒有 但是現在想不起來有比十萬分之一低嗎這的確是一個很嚴肅的問題啦台灣要做潛艦 所有人都應該樂觀其成應該客戶任何困難 甚至排除任何法規的局限 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10042.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10055.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們也要督促廠商因為有時效性 國防有時效性所以我們要督促廠商他要盡快的完成交件但是我們不要輕易說不繼續做自製潛艦所以我的意思就是說我們這樣子的違約金讓廠商有沒有辦法積極要去哪裡買潛艦來防衛台灣的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10060.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10075.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
主委你扯遠了 你扯遠了我們的目標一樣我們就直接講核心問題我們的目標是希望廠商積極是希望台灣自治潛艦還是說國防部不要自治潛艦所以說海昆號我們支持啊所以希望的話就要克服任何困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10076.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10095.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
對所以說我們希望廠商積極的來做嘛對不對對所以我們公司的立場是尊重國防部的財政國防部應該有他一些積極的來有些機密廠商積極的完成合約競速的交界是我們共同的目標對不對是吧主委也希望盡快交界嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10096.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10122.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們希望滿足國防部的需求不會說不會 不要吧 應該是要吧我們希望都盡快交件 你剛剛問我需不需要國防制度我答應你 我希望啊當然按照合約 希望交件能夠如期完成站在一個國民的角度 你應該也希望盡快交件吧我們希望趕快擁有潛艦 有足夠的潛艦所以對於這個國防的問題啊對這個廠商 你覺得有沒有讓他有壓迫性 希望他盡快的來交件 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10123.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10139.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
這很嚴肅的問題對所以說我們都是台灣國女我們希望台灣的國防部有這樣的能力所以任何困難我們都站在協助讓他能夠完成的角度但我們不希望廠商一直拖嘛對不對我們不希望廠商一直拖拖不拖是國防部跟廠商的約定 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10141.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10164.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
所以說現在各個機關都可以這樣子講不同機關是國防部這個前件的問題太嚴肅了所以我就請教一個主委我請教主委10萬分之一的日的違約金你認為對於廠商去競速的交件這件事情你認為能不能構成他的壓力這個是國防部自己的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10165.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10177.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
國防部他站在什麼角度什麼約定那如果認為合以他的採購契約那國防部當然可以這樣做你難道希望滑到滑到這個廠商倒掉沒有人希望廠商倒啊我們必須很嚴肅的跟你對談對不對所以這個問題太嚴肅了 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10183.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10210.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
所以我們希望他早一點那我就因為工主委你的經驗豐富所以來請教一下國防有特殊性然後當然我們也是希望說依照其他的經驗來看看怎樣的一個機制讓廠商他有壓力競速滿足我們國人對國防以及國防部的要求那所以說了請教這十萬分之一的違約金的機制對於對廠商來說有沒有壓力啦這可能你們或許有其他的其他案例你們覺得他他他 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10211.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10237.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這樣的機制對廠商有壓力你們也可以說哪個案子也是這樣子吧他也達到很好的效果我們也可以舉例嘛對不對因為他的採購的本質是帶有研發性質在外國叫做APA的採購那APA的採購基本上面他有他的特殊性不單單只是我們都承認所以他會算在公企裡面所以他必須去衡量整個他旅業的可能性他旅業的這個風險等等所以他是依照這些相關的因素去 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10239.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10264.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我們都理解啦好啦我就尊重主席啦時間到了那我只是希望說國防採購大家支持但是也希望說有時候我們工程會也可以提出一些建議怎麼樣子讓這個採購案能夠更符合我們國防如期如值的交件應該是大家共同的目標就這樣的一個目的而已好以上謝謝謝謝廖先祥委員發言完畢現在請謝龍介委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10281.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10284.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
主席我請等主委請等主委很好啊 剛才廖委員在講主委辛苦了國防的才幹我們都支持奉款發令 為了台灣可以有減水艇 大家都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10306.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10323.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
但不能說我們大家都支持,就把這個不法,到保障核心、淡化都保在裡面,臨摹不中都可以運用,這不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10324.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10334.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
如果沒有問題 老總統在當選他就不會說前進國造要發展了就是有發生一些問題我們是說要怎麼去理性面對你專業是希望你怎麼用專業替他討要給他發 法律上的那些都是我們要付出代價的嘛 對不對譬如說台灣領元要改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10347.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10368.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
需要力量跟太陽能的發電 但是不能因為需要力量跟太陽能的發電 這樣就能溫泉過上高潔了是不是這樣這是大家真理性來看待這個問題主委我請教你我們說的當天委員會是不是有一個叫做拆槓新手的心理委員會這個有啦這個委員會的功能是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10375.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10399.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
包括申訴跟禮業爭議調解管理很大申訴跟禮業爭議調解管理很大因為我對港電多少有了解過去我整理了什麼因為這個條件出來的結論如果機關沒有同意對方就可以去申請仲裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10404.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10433.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
一般全台灣所有的政策 國有的官司政府差不多3%就是最好選擇的政策 政策差不多超過十八九年以前機關付出的代價會更大所以在你們這個裡面 其實是很重要啦他的改水跟過程的結論啦 會影響阿伯輸贏大概在這裡就已經破頂了啦如果內行的在這裡看到這個結論處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10434.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10444.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
去仲裁的時候就差不多知道勝負多少了我請問你 這個委員會裡面有沒有一個姓孔的委員我知道你如果 你講孔嘛 我們有一個孔凡奇律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10457.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10472.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
他是一個律師啦 但是當然律師接什麼案件不管了 他也要接政府的 也有去接一方的兩邊他都有委託 這是律師的權益 但是他也是你的委員就對了但是在這個委員會裡面 他就變成是法律最受權的公務員他就是這個委員啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10484.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10496.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以本會就變成可以來關心啦因為我記得有我們會立委有跟主委請教過就是說他覺得有食人的問題啦,但是你之前的回答就是說沒問題嘛主委你之前有講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10510.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10526.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
報告委員孔律師我從來不認識他我知道啦 不是你的問題我是給委員說明他以前接的甲方的案件公務局高工局替政府機關訴訟的最多所以因為拼臨沒問題嘛沒有問題沒有問題經濟我了解就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10537.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10557.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
你們這個委員會大概就是每個禮拜五開會嘛那是大會那是大會嘛,大會之前呢如果有這個問題,分給這個有心會嘛就是看是申訴還是...有心會大概就是一個專業的、一個法律的啊原則上大概這樣嘛大家都是委員,他還在受委託 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10564.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10570.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
如果來搞這個無心肺大我們兩個像我們兩個現在這樣在這裡有在互動另一邊那個肺大 只有我們兩個你認為這樣會受到影響嗎 會受到這個大肺關節的影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10578.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10601.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我想這個是律師職業過程裡面經常會面臨的問題譬如說律師也很多在各個機關的這個書院委員會等等都會有案件個案要利益迴避的問題所以原則上只要是從事這個行業的大概不應該說我跟他認識或怎麼樣不用去解說背景啦 就是說工作要避嫌嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10602.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10625.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
群組派遣就是說 譬如說他在你們裡面你現在跟他在那裡 我也覺得很奇怪 如果這樣就表示他如果接案來做委員 那就裁判檢選手了嘛這就是說 我的意思是說 不是針對個人 就說針對同案 我們尽量群組派遣嘛因為公共工廠委員會是一個動見觀察 大家都覺得是信任人 所以就對你們這裡來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10631.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10658.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以他現在 依我的理解就是說 他只要他有擔任過他代理案件的機構和廠商 他都會迴避啊 他會全案件都迴避啊你今年啦 今年的價位喔 已經是做委員啦他有收到一間應責公司的委託 要向公共工廠申請了解後來呢 公共工廠會做出建議後來 我們做出來了 我們待會做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10662.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10674.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
結果 他們不同意誰不同意這個親情的他們就說 不同意來 你現在聽我說 不同意的理由書當然就是他寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10677.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10699.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
他說我們工廠會的條件件疑是騙民採納他遭董事員的意見並不就有利於新青林的部分 若不可能 若不符合新青林對著公共工廠委員會的期待所以這個理由就是他死了 我覺得他是你們的委員他現在對董事員 對你們提出抨擊主委 我覺得這樣 你會受傷啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10705.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10726.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
報告委員 這個申訴調解 跟你想我們代表會嘛 那個調解委員會那這個禮業爭議的調解 有的案件蠻大的那這個調解很專業 我們不可能讓所有的律師都不參與調解委員會就是他該避 該迴避的迴避 他要自我 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10729.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10746.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
後來他寫出來的結論是來評價你的委員會做出來就是他受理案件的立場來寫他的這個這樣就會變成角色矛盾啦我的意思是說在公共工程委員會裡面應該盡量撇免這種角色矛盾啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10751.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10780.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
你這個角色矛盾 就會讓一般外界所有的人 我要來給你選擇的人變成說 你們就求完兼裁判 還可以做裁判 現在做求完 再來說裁判都不對主委你也不給他處理 也沒有條件 我認為希望這個個案以外 其他大家 因為我相信會做到律師 會做到委員 本身都有主律的紀律的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10781.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10799.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
主委你看 有需要 我今天這樣跟你講 你可以接受嗎我想要保持這個 要公正一定是絕對的價值那個案裡面 我們來解釋看看有沒有適當的部分謝謝謝榮介委員 發言完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10811.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10814.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
現在請鄭天才委員發言主席有請這個主委鄭委員請陳主委委員好主委好這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10841.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10867.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
今天就談這個馬太安西菸社府這個應變中央協調匯報現在已經由這個主委來擔任這個執行秘書在今天的報告裡面也提到這個馬太安西菸社府整治包括防範並執行減災監測及修築堤防加固加高 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10869.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10888.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個都是在特別條例裡面所明訂的這很遺憾的就在這次的鳳凰颱風的非常非常遙遠的颱風然後帶來的這些豪雨就造成了這個萬榮鄉 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10891.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10919.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
就是馬太安溪的另外一側上次是在光復鄉這次跑到望榮鄉就因為這個堤防有這樣的一個就是沒有設堤防的一個溢流點就從那邊就這樣進來了所以這個部分經過一個多月之後仍然發生這樣的一個情形當然一直發生這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10921.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10944.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
災情現在光復鄉鳳林鎮望龍鄉很多的鄉親都在反映最重要的還是在這個馬太安西安社府的大體要如何趕快處理這個源頭我們就今天談這個源頭上次我在總質詢的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10946.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10970.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
也有跟院長提過那因為當初時間的關係沒有辦法細談事實上啊 本席我都已經認為說我知道了太晚對於馬太安西安社府這個霸體我是在8月初才知道從媒體的報導才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10971.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10999.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
後來才發現原來水利以前的農委會林務及他們在109年就開始看到這個崩塌的現象有時候有流水有時候沒有水是這樣的一個情形我們就所以我8月初才知道所以我提了這個附帶決議當初是為了丹納斯颱風的特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11000.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11025.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我提出了這個附帶決議當初就是建議那個霸體一定要開挖易洪道而事實上我後來也才發現這個106年農委會就已經有這樣的一個對於煙社福的霸體應該要怎麼去處理都有一個106年就已經有規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11028.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11056.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以我們現在這個挽養補勞畢竟還是要去處理所以農業部農業部在10月25號我有親自陪同行政院院長去提防那邊當時農業部的報告他們也要積極處理天然霸體的治理工程他們的方式就是要從光復的林道還有望龍的林道 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11057.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11082.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
來去上山來去上山望榮林道跟光復林道他們目前的規劃要把這個林道本來就有林道本來就有林道要把這個林道透寬要讓這個挖土機能夠上山上山之後然後去挖這個壩體這個他們的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11085.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11113.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
有方案一方案二當然我上次跟這個院長建議現在也是向主委建議因為這樣子去是一種做法這個當然我不是專業人士當初我的建議就是說當初我8月22號開過學條 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11116.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11145.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
開過緊急的協調會8月22號為什麼會開呢因為我那時候8月22號開協調會我是8月20號看到農業部的報那個消息多沒有下雨的話10月初就會一流所以我8月20號趕快發公文也邀請了公務工程委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11146.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11172.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
災防辦還有農業部經濟部除了下游的堤防加固加高河床輸菌都提了當然上面的霸體也應該要想辦法處理當然時間以現在來看已經很晚了太晚了所以我的訊息說真的是太晚了所以我們現在還是要處理還是要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11176.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11182.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個不曉得主委有什麼樣的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11183.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11209.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好 謝謝委員 的確是委員在協調單案式風災特別條例的時候附帶決議因此特別預算才編了一億兩千萬針對堰塞湖的這個監測疏洪還有一些防災才有這個預算那目前是採取方案一啦從這個公務林道上去200天所以我才說希望明年六月夏天之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11211.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11237.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這個林道應該要改善完畢讓相關機器能夠上去那上去不是直接要挖那個壩體是作為監測或者是了解或者裝置監測設備或者是有什麼疏洪可以慢慢疏洪的是這樣子現在監測系統都有了監測系統都有了所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11238.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11262.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
如果只是這樣的話我就建議就不要了先讓人機具能夠到達才能夠決定採取什麼方案否則人用直升機吊掛下去或機械重機械根本沒辦法下去所以要領導先做好然後上去再評估用什麼方式好那個這樣我的建議還是我上次提過 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11264.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11289.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
過去都有案例所以一定要去不是單獨由農業部去處理我是建議公共工程委員會既然你們是一個這個條例的主管機關特別條例的主管機關你們要召集相關的部會包括國防部包括專業人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11292.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11314.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
然後去參考過去國際的案例直升機不是沒有上汽過內政部的直升機已經上汽過了也把人放下去了所以這個部分何況啊挖土機他是可以拆解的挖土機 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11315.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11336.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
可以拆解上去然後再組裝的所以這個必須要專業人士了我只能建議了我只能建議所以你們一定要去積極的召開這樣的一個專業的會議我只不過是做這樣一個建議好不好謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言完畢現在請盧憲一委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11348.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11351.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
主席有請陳主委請陳主委委員好主委好在這個業務報告裡面的第14頁我看到了確保各機關解決在公共工程推動過程中遇到的困難跟障礙確保公共工程順利進行品質持續提升並加速促進區域平衡發展我覺得我看到這句話的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11377.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11387.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
內心有一些喜悅有些期望那我覺得說在我們在奔跑全國原住民地區的時候會覺得說到底國家在哪裡那我們先看一段影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11400.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11428.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這段影片大概就是它發生的時間點剛好是在馬太安顏色湖的事件發生的時候這個地方是在台東的海端鄉我們的南橫的路段大概在180公里的地方那它是南橫公路不是農路它也不是一般道路你可以看到它的柔長寸段那我們看到這樣的時候主委你覺得它會跨設到幾個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11431.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11457.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
當然公路是交通部嘛那有些是水保的問題是農業部那園民鄉園民會大概是主要這三個還水利如果說底下是河川的話大概就是這個然後當然我有因為這件事情有召集過中央各部會還有地調中心就是地質調查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11458.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11480.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那所以我覺得常常在我們在做這樣的一個會的時候其實我們覺得力道不足後來我覺得那個公共工程會應該是其實是最適合做這方面的跨部會的一個整合的一個單位那我在講一些地方讓主委有一些印象比如說我們的桃園地區剛才明巴路克橋已經花了20億還是沒有這個橋然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11486.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11500.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那個納瑪夏往阿里山的那個青山段他的路也斷了他也需要跨部會還有我們寶山的高雄縣桃園區寶山的柔河橋蓋了4000萬的橋結果一兩年就不見了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11501.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11527.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我們看到當時颱風災後重建條例這個這麼大的一個就所謂的我們的國家的預算的時候我們很希望有一個所謂的災後復建部落遷村的專案平台可是我們那時候提建議可是並沒有被納入考量那我希望主委以後有遇到這樣的時候能夠全力支持我們原鄉的部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11528.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11555.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
千村的專案平台因為如果不是公共委員會的這個層級的話沒有人可以做這樣的工作因為現在我們經過88風災到現在那麼多年很多地方已經產生了很多問題如果你沒有部落千村那個專責平台的時候你沒有辦法去找到一個對口來處理他們很多法規上的問題還有一些經費上的限制我所以這方面給你一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11558.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11576.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
是跟工程有關那公共工程委員會則無旁貸但如果涉及到遷村是否遷村整合意見那應該有他相對的主管機關大家都同意的情況之下 工程的部分工程會願意來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11578.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11594.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那就引入到我今天的一個主題就是我們在走仁愛鄉的所以就是南投看到我們這物色水庫這個周邊的這個環境也是柔腸寸斷那其實我大概知道說台電大概投資在物色水庫大概50億的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11595.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11614.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
金額的規模要輕於這些不過如果只有台電這方面在努力可是下游呢下游有一個澳萬大溪的一個匯入以後造成部落下面的部落沿線的這些部落 左水溪線的他們的生活的品質跟那邊的遇上的堆積也是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11614.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11630.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
跨部會的一個經費因為我後來去做實地考察以後他們發現說現在水保署的經費大概就是他們當初在上一任總統的時候有講說可能台電付一半然後水保署這邊付一半結果換了總統以後結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11633.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11659.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
部長都換人了結果台電這邊說他們沒有這方面的計畫所以如果說就這樣的話台電做上面的然後水保做下面的可是其實是應該是統整做一個整個地區的治理不然我們永遠都沒有辦法去把我們仁愛鄉治理好因為你再去那邊跟你10年前20年前的時候甚至都是退步的而不是進步的 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11659.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11686.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
所以對國家的整個形象或者說對原鄉的一些付出或者說我們希望它的原鄉道路是國道成績的這樣的一個很卑微的訴求其實都遙遙無期所以我希望主委這邊能夠做一個跨部會的整合希望把那個物色這一帶的這個上下一個治理計畫能夠推入到一個重點的一個你這個任期裡面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11688.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11715.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
願景啦那我有一個最後一個方案就是因為時間的關係我希望因為這個很多園鄉的地區都是跨部會所以希望我們可以找一個時間來專門來來解決這個物色地區這麼這麼大區域的一個區域啊或者是道路啊或者是整個這個園鄉的規劃所以我希望能夠排個時間邀請主委以政務委員的身份來個跨部會協商跟協調好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11716.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11722.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
問題好謝謝主委好謝謝盧縣議委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言好謝謝主席我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11741.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11763.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
讓主委喝一口水完再一次辛苦了請陳主委也謝謝徐委員謝謝主委辛苦了我想全國的重大工程這個不生沒舉啦那主委負擔這麼多的重大工程當然很辛苦我們先感謝主委那個陸力為國為國為民 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11765.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11787.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
不過就是辛苦的地方還是需要主委多幫忙我們的災區就是從這個颱風跟雨災事實上我們高雄的災區真的是蠻需要經費協助的當時那個其邁市長也預估說大概有10億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11788.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11806.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那目前交通部編列的預算我知道也很緊迫啦就是包括交通部本預算包括道路省道園民會等等的這些都有編列預算那交通部經濟部園民會等部會也曾經承諾說要核定加速經費重寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11807.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11832.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那這個部分我想包括我們的台20線南橫東莊橋聖晉橋明霸克祿橋這個蠻嚴重的那27線台27線28線還有29線這些都是災區非常迫切需要的那尤其是明霸克祿橋事實上你看了也真的很從八八水災到現在已經地層上升了50公尺高 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11834.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11847.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以真的是這個工程困難跟需要的經費窘迫真的是我們高雄很需要的那不知道這個部分主委有沒有就是把這個進度幫忙keep |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11850.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11874.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
八月風災這個預算就是丹納斯風災的特別預算裡面這個預算分布在各部會交通部公路局或者是園民會都有他們會提出一些相關的子計畫事實上原來預算在編的時候都已經框住了所以都已經在執行了我現在只是不了解說各部會在執行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11876.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11902.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
在執行高雄的時候它是否有編族 如剛才委員所需求的現在就是說各部會還不夠 那我們希望說請我們主委能夠再幫忙主委也是我們高雄市的副市長出身能夠盡量幫忙 還有副主委也是能夠盡量幫忙把這個進度跟經費可以盡量把它匡列好 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11902.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11922.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
可能剩下一倍金也用的差不多了就是說300億裡面有一部分是一倍金也用的差不多了所以我再瞭解一下在特別預算裡面 是否還有能夠留用 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11923.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11947.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
的空間啦就是其他部位有沒有執行沒有辦法不必執行那麼多了有沒有能夠留用的空間啦這部分我這個會後我再來了解希望主委就是特別關照啦因為這個正常的十一住行都可以安排的情況之下那當然是基本需求但是連十一住行都沒有辦法安排的時候這個就必須優先處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11948.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11976.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那災區這裡其實幾乎是他們要通外道這基本需求都還沒達到所以這個部分請就是說我們在中央的角度能夠看到全國真的是十一住行都沒有辦法料理的完整的地方是不是可以優先關注或者是多加注淨費來協助直接跟高雄市政府聯絡讓你評估我剛才講的這個整個特別預算的執行情形有沒有空間可以留用到這裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11977.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12006.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
謝謝主委那再來就是說我們的高雄重大建設還有國道7號還有高雄機場那也謝謝主委對我們國道7號很重視那還率隊親自下去跟我們在加強國道7號那原則上這個照程序動工這個不知道主委有沒有keep這個進度就是我們115年初就是明年的很快那這個進度是不是工程會有注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12011.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12031.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
跟委員報告我想那個國道7號這個是我們不管是智捷委員還是我們主席崑哲委員都長期在關心推送的那這個基本設計都已經確定了那現在那個高工局也正在準備發包作業當中那已經上網了那總共會是未來會有六個工程標加一個機電整合標 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12033.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12050.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那他現在明年初動工他們在拚今年年底前先把前面的第一標就是有第幾標就是靠近小港那邊先完成發包那如果順利今年能夠發包的話他明年就是要從明年能夠來動工明年初希望有機會動工是 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12052.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12077.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那另外還有 主委 這個庚副主委 這個高雄機場的擴建這個問題其實蠻大的啦就是說我們現在桃園第三寒夏的工人大概都集中在那裡那大概第三寒夏的北半的對 就是北部 北半部會先完成嘛那在今年底可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12078.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12101.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那明年是不是就說還要等這個藍登基郎廳做完然後這些工人才有機會移世高雄阿北登基郎廳計畫是年底看能不能適應應啦後續還有藍登基郎廳主體的工程恐怕還有一點時間那這裡面他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12103.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12123.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
承攬這個T3承攬這個第三行下的營造廠他去申請的移工所以是不是能夠直接轉過去我可能要跟勞動部了解相關的規定因為那邊其實也有人在反映就是移工的確不足啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12124.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12139.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那當然這個部分這是國家政策的問題那是不是工程會能夠幫忙協調如果說高雄機場到時候開始施工的時候有需要移工我們可以工程會可以協助專案來跟大東部來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12140.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12165.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好這個部分我是希望說那個工程會能夠這個我們有潛力可循啦多多協助啦因為這個工人跟我現在知道的訊息是這樣啦就是北登基廊道這邊做完做南登基廊道這邊做完才有辦法移植高雄對才有辦法移植高雄嘛所以如果這些人都還沒做完我可能高雄的進度就會被delay到 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12166.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12173.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那高雄那邊有沒有可能就是先有機會不管是專案還是怎麼樣就是那邊可以有機會先動工 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12174.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12203.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以他就是看哪一個營造廠得標他會提出申請那工程會協助他就重新申請那些額度如果開工了那這個第三航廈還沒有完成那當然高雄機場那邊可以先進一些移工先動對 OK這個再拜託主委幫忙因為我們高雄如果要等到第三航廈都做好才來動高雄那時間又可能會被delay到所以這個部分再拜託主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12203.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12221.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那統而言之就是說我希望說再一次呼籲啦就是說其實我們南高屏生活圈你包括有很多公共的建設都應該一起思考像北北基島他現在這個大生活圈其實很多都會互通的蠻好的那南高屏很多的交通建設要走在前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12222.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12240.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
所以也謝謝其實我們主委跟我們的交通部其實這部分也協助的蠻多的啦就是說包括我們的捷運將來有沒有機會北接台南、南接台東、南接屏東那包括我們的國道現在在拓寬也謝謝主委大家的幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12241.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12263.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那未來還有很多就是包括高屏二塊等等的這個主委都很幫忙那我是希望說將來國家在做思考的時候就是包括蔡總統包括我們的賴總統所標榜的就是大南方新矽谷那大南方就是南高屏的結合那也希望說主委可以在這一部分以後有這個公共建設的思考的時候可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12264.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12288.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
用這個觀念去把南高屏把它盡量的連接在一起這樣子我們大概500萬左右的區域經濟體才有辦法自給自足或者是互補不足所以這個部分我想未來南高雄南高屏我們高雄跟台南屏東的結合要更緊密那這個部分再拜託主委在做思考的時候可以再多一個這樣子一個思考會對我們南高屏的發展會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12291.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12307.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
高鐵延伸屏東的部分我們也持續在關注鐵道局在進行的環評作業當中希望他能夠如期來完成這個環境想評估說明書這個就拜託主委可能包括高鐵、台鐵、國道、公路、飛機 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12311.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12336.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
機場啦 二十四小時機場等等這些都是我們一個大的生活圈之所需所以就是說中央在核定這些機會的時候希望能夠盡量把我們這三個地方結合在一起的需求這樣子可能核准的機會更高那將來串聯的機會也才會更高 好不好好 謝謝主委好 謝謝許智傑委員發言完畢現在請邱若驊委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12348.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12350.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
謝謝主席 主席請陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12357.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12371.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
委員好 主委好 主委今天有幾個問題要向您來就教那首先我們先來看到前瞻基礎建設第五期的特別預算執行率那根據工程會最新的督導報告第五期的前瞻特別預算執行率從8.76%提升到22.48%那雖然成長了13.72% |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12379.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12395.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
可是距離年底的目標你們定的95%仍然是差到72.5%那也就是說從9月的匯報到年底只剩3個月10月 11月 12月那等於說每個月要拉高24%的進度主委您認為這樣是真的可以達到嗎請公管處處長來跟你說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12407.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12424.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
謝謝委員的關心那因為前瞻今年預算通過比較晚不過各個部會都在努力中那我們大概有盤整到年底他們可以執行的達成率大概也可以接近到九成以上這個我們也要求各部會來努力來執行以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12425.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12446.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
所以是確定在實際工程現場24%是每個月24%是可以達到的嗎因為工程的他的特性是到年底的時候他會比較大部分的一個付款的一個動作其他的他的工作期限是到年底的時候他會他的執行的部分會比較多啦因為這個會牽涉到整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12447.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12475.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
因為在這個會議 你們雖然有宣布年底可以達標可是沒有說明各個職計畫的進度落差你們有公布瓶頸的清單嗎我們有針對比較落後的一個工程來做列管然後追蹤 來加速他們的執行因為本身看到很多標案都還在審查設計預算也還沒有核定那代表這個執行率很可能只是帳面的數字所以不是實際的開工或是完工 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12476.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12494.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
基本上假設有些是沒辦法在年底之前完成的話他們會以往自己移到別的執行率比較高的工程來執行那因為前瞻的部分到年底就會結束那因為今年那你們現在算的這個達成率是根據核銷金額算的還是實際的開工進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12495.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12512.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
依照它實際的執行的進度來去做一個預估來所以是一個預估嗎那你們可不可以在下一次會議的時候公佈各項前瞻計畫它的實際的工程進度對照表因為本期看到你們都只有文字紀錄沒有錯吧目前你們有一個像是儀表版可以來做參照嗎可以 這個可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12513.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12536.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
你們可以來做大碼OK那就請在下一次的會議希望你們可以公佈好OK那主委那本行政委你們的工程的效率不只有進度問題那還有透明度的問題那舉例呢因為現在缺乏分享公開看不到哪一些計畫他是執行順利跟哪一些落後還是您剛才這邊有提到都可以看得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12540.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12564.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
跟委補充報告 因為基本上我們會做一個大的一個統計那假設針對比較落後指標的工程我們也會在我們的每月的督導匯報去做一個提醒那因為這個 你們是每個月還是每一季我們每個月的督導匯報我們都會做一些列管跟提醒那這些資料當然委員家有需要我們都會提供給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12564.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12582.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
OK 好 謝謝繼續我們來看到今天也有很多委員提到就是流標的問題那這幾年公共工程流標的情況越來越多那五年平均每年有4500件那它佔全部標案的一成那大型的建案中那流標超過三次的也有35% |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12584.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12613.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那主要原因本席有看到營建業他們工會的調查是因為預算落後市場的行情那也有因為勞務跟材料上漲那契約是缺乏彈性的那再來還有驗收還有付款的期程過長現金壓力是比較高的嘛那本席以桃園的台鐵都會區捷運化的地下化工程為例有三個標案CJ11還有14 15嘛到現在都還沒有發包就是最明顯的例子那主委您知道今年截止啊那 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12614.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12617.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
全國有多少標案是有多少標案是流標的請相關主管來說明詳細的數字跟委員報告那我們現在這個有流標的有流標過的案件喔那一年一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12644.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12645.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12646.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12676.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
跟委員報告就是說我們目前統計順利決標是90%那所以倒過來是10%左右是沒有辦法順利發報 倒過來大概10%那其中因為預算不足的造成的占比你們有掌握多少嗎 包委員這個部分我們是沒有很精確的統計 所以你們沒有一個即時的監測機制不是我們有監測哪些案子目前還在流標但是跟委員報告剛委員提到的這個桃園的這三個案子因為他是屬於軌道系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12676.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12700.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那我只是以桃園這個例子來做舉例那你們是要等各個機關回報你們才知道呢還是你們自己本身就有一個監測的機制我們本身就有這個電子採購網本身就可以看得到目前的招訣標的狀況另外再請教那物價的調整機制那啟動的門檻你們有沒有一個啟動的門檻來了解就是從市場的物價上漲到核准調整平均要多長的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12702.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12731.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
跟委員報告這個我們每個月都有做工程會都有做實際上的物價調物價的訪查所以我們這個時間差基本上沒有沒有很幾乎可能都在一個月裡面都在一個月裡面那本席還是建議你們要設立一個像是來流標的預警系統嗎因為他的流標我們剛才剛才本席有提到是百分之三十百分之三十五嗎那流標次數過多的時候你們可不可以就是主動的來檢討呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12732.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12741.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
跟委員報告我們有我們有就是篩選工程採購5000萬以上然後兩次流標的當作我們去輔導對象的這個篩選的武術基礎有一些的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12749.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12766.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
您遇到的基礎是一個浮動的公事嗎不是 就是因為我們隨時都有資料庫所以我們會知道目前流標中的案子然後5000萬以上他流標幾次 這個我們都知道那我們會去挑其中有些比較重要的大家關切的我們去做個案的輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12767.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12791.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那你們有沒有掌握到市場的總量呢實際上就像捷運我們有掌握到捷運和軌道我們能夠做的廠商大概10家以內那現在的因為各個廠商的這個量就是目前在建工程的這個量都有一定的份量所以我們是有注意到這個未納量有不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12792.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12817.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
市長 本身為流標不是市場的問題啦那工程會要主動的去盤點跟檢討為什麼這個流報率那麼高是 我們對 除了委員這個投影片上面的這些那個是我們一般通案性然後針對個別的類別像捷運它就是一個獨特的類別它有專業性還有這個金額高的特性 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12818.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12847.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那還有廠商少的特性所以這個我們都有掌握到這些狀況那我們也會去調整看跟各機關說哪些可能快做完了可以去邀請哪些廠商來投標OK 好 那主委我們接下來再看到我們近幾年地方工程有出現一個問題嘛有一個現象就一開挖就挖出被棄物的狀況您知道嗎您知道有這樣的現象跟狀況新聞上是 我會看到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12848.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12876.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那像是我們桃園平鎮的三子頂的松花區 地底下開花的時候就發現23萬立方公尺的垃圾那侵運費 光是侵運費就佔了13.3億元高於原本的預算1.9億那還有發生在桃園龜山社宅還有八德旗艦公園都有類似的情形那造成延宕還有預算追加那工程會的資料也有顯示去年工程 公共工程平均延誤的天數是92天那主要的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12877.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12903.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
場地障礙跟地質不明它是排在前兩名的那現行的地質調查規範你們就只看只看研盤跟結構安全嘛那沒有納入地底廢棄物前世的項目也沒有要求主管機關來針對地底來進行評估或是繳交完整的環境報告那本席想要問喔那全國目前有多少工程因為地底廢棄物然後造成預算增加或是延誤供期主委您有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12904.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12919.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
就是應該是當年大量的棄置我想這個主管機關他在決定路線或決定場域的時候他們會進行必要的評估至於他有沒有詳細到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12921.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12941.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
裡面有也許有文資文資也有可能或是有那麼多廢棄物我想這個不一定每個每個這個採購機關他都做這麼詳盡的調查那當然這個預算會增加預算增加那我想採購機關那必要的時候應該跟承攬的廠商做一些變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12943.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12954.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
本來是希望之後可以把它納入就是工程要進行之前先做地底下面的就是有一個是專炭有一個程序專炭希望可以把它納入好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12957.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12984.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
跟委員報告就是他基本上要看他工程的總列因為我們如果前面性的話恐怕會因為時間的關係不過我們就可以針對針對個案來看好不好OK好謝謝好謝謝邱若驊委員發言完畢現在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請黃婕委員黃婕委員黃婕委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13015.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13018.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
馬克風有聲音嗎來謝謝主席這個好 請陳主委注意藍納斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13041.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13060.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
你是主管工程會是主管機關很感謝我們力爭之下現在把這個包括彰化縣之前這個嘉義市本來只有一個區現在全部都變成列為是災區了讓這個救助可以加速而且很多這個民眾得到應有這個照顧可是我要跟你好好討論一下彰化 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13062.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13081.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
光是彰化本來要列為這個災區依照現行的這個我們這個法制面我搞了兩三個月非常的非常的辛苦你先看中間這個圖一開始彰化縣政府跟很多彰化縣的縣民來陳情發現丹納斯的時候他們受災是嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13082.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13107.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
可是呢 只有幾個鄉鎮 特定的這個鄉鎮縣政府也擔心 災民也擔心結果呢 我請工程會還有要求經濟部跟農業部來開會他們一直很堅持說一定要用是分區的爭取一直到 你看一直到9月30號喔 才從善如流其實很簡單的嘛你就用我們當初立法院在訂丹納斯特別條例的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13108.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13136.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
他就明定本條例第六條鎖定了災區不在災害防救法第五十一條規定那個用那個範圍因為他就講那個是我們就是要重塑重寬重減嘛對不對所以所以才立這個辦法嘛所以一開始就應該是要用很寬的這個方式結果呢你們當初連那個什麼整個高雄市有些地方都受災了高雄市只有本來只有內一個區啊只有一個新興區還是說只有一戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13137.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13153.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
結果這個光是這樣子公文網訪跟開這個整個這個協調啊搞了一兩個月到最後你看右邊就是最後的左邊這是最後的公告卓議院長後來把這個12個縣市從苗栗台中南投彰化縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13155.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13179.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
銀林縣嘉義縣嘉義市台南高雄屏東花蓮跟台東12個全部都放進去我現在跟你討論的是說以後如果有一定特別條例還有嚴重的這個風災的時候請重減跟重寬好不好不要搞這麼久啦好不好這是今天很重要一件事情我們要建立一個制度化而且要以災民為先重建為先跟時間要賽跑第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13181.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13205.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
鋪住啊 這個鋪子市的市長吳品瑞他在陳情 他說這片納粒風災的時候結果那個棒球場 市立棒球場被摧毀了結果竟然找不到送上去沒有一個單位是可以補助的後來我們開了這個協調會內政部 這本來棒球場應該很多人想的應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13206.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13227.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
應該是教育部嘛 教育部說他不在校內內政部國土署說這個好像也不是他的後來還好經過工程會一起進來協調後來就確定了由國土署的核定了384萬去幫助了福祉市的這個棒球場這個要謝謝 成功爭取了可是我要問一個很重要的當然在校內都沒問題嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13229.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13246.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
主委 以後如果是像棒球場現在運動部又成立了嘛你要出面去協調一下以後如果是有類似棒球場不是在學校 學校以內的以後是專責誰去做輔助 好不好棒球場 棒球場的事情好 另外一個這邊台南叫嘉義啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13248.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13273.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那個整個那個基地台都被摧毀了就出現了很大問題所以我在我們的特別條例的這個通過過程裡面我提了一個主決議我要求要最災害的漫遊機制要把它制度化現在在10月27號我看到你們已經擬出一個這NCC提的啟動行動通信災害漫遊機制這個作業要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13275.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13297.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那這樣以後就會變快了因為這一次 這邊就是 你如果去台南跟嘉義 那段時間大概已經過了兩三個禮拜 三四個禮拜了都還是不通的那實際上就是因為他漫遊有問題嘛台哥大他沒有 基地台被弄壞啦他說要用中華電信的 兩邊溝通不良現在這個辦法有出來了所以在通信這個 你指揮官嘛以後我們就授權指揮官要進去協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13298.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13326.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
你看一下那個辦法現在NCC列出來授權災害應變的指揮官要去啟動這個機制然後他們之前就是因為拆帳有問題嘛到底要用哪一家的台哥大已經機器台壞掉了我要去借借這個中華電信的要怎麼拆帳現在我們就明定要求說拆帳這個規範要出來那如果有問題就提醒到NCC去做這個做這個協商更重要的更重要的相關的錢要由中央來付不要讓民眾來付好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13329.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13350.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這筆經費我們已經有通過了好來最重要一個點那個主委我們當初為了要推動整個這個過程所以我們有明定說特別條例過了兩個月內你要提出整個復原跟重建的這個計畫每個月要把你的復原跟重建進度拖上網對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13353.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13379.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
而且每季啊 要報立法院來備查很棒 對 可是柏定 你看一下我昨天晚上上去看你這個網站這是你的 這是你的重建重建復原計畫嗎總統在什麼時候公告了 公佈了我們這個特別條例通過8月19對不對 今天已經到月13了 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13383.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13397.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
保定這是你們的重建計畫嗎我來瞭解一下因為我沒有看這個你現在就可以上網去看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13398.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13412.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這應該不是你的重建計畫吧 你的重建計畫還沒出來還是還沒PO上來如果依照剛剛主委你跟我講 我們剛剛討論的 依照特別條例這個是提案書啦 主委是114年7月嘛 是不是左邊這張嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13414.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13443.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
左邊這一張嘛我現在就是說這個你現在有九大項九大項重建因為現在的重建計畫有些五十三項子計畫已經陸續事實上在執行但是整個會診簽報行政院啦當然會核定啦所以如果說這個有問題我們回去調整九大項五十三個子計畫嘛對不對這個電力是其中的第四項嘛我現在跟你講的就是我們總統已經公告了8月19號 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13445.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13455.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們那時候法例裡面明定兩個月內你要把你整個計畫你剛講的那個計畫還要有內容放上來嘛現在就是還沒有這個不是你的計畫 這個很空啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13456.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13484.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
你現在應該把你剛剛講那個主委你講你去簽成給這個行政院這個要盡快要放上來要不然我們怎麼監督對不對馬上核定我們就放上去好不好而且速度要加快因為已經晚了一個月了嘛對不對OK 晚了一個月要加快這樣我們才有辦法知道你們的進度篩民 篩民說我這地方要重建復原我要知道進度 立法院要知道那53個子計畫啦對 不能只有這樣這個不是計畫嘛已經晚了一個月了 盡快喔你當時可以站起來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13486.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13506.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
院核定我們就馬上報上去 什麼時候才會核定我已經報院了 報院了應該有會診啦你要跟印度說嘛 這是法律明定我們剛剛送而已8月19加2個月就是10月19嘛今天已經要過一個月了今天已經10月過了嘛要新款放上來 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員 發言完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13509.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13512.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
現在請賴會員委員 賴會員委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員發言請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13537.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13558.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
所以近一点来其实这个风灾水灾各种灾害灾损不断包含震灾都有所以我在关注这些灾害复建的这一个执行成效我觉得有一个系统性的问题那就是说地方政府他申报他的这个复建工程师绝大部分他是恢复原状 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13558.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13588.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
可是很多地點是重複災損就是說我們不斷的在看到同一個地區同一個地點的災損不斷的出現那一座橋可能五年斷三次那同一條路可能年年攤房那代表說我們是在治標當然現行的這個公共設施的復建工程他的執行作業要點裡面他有提到說地方政府在提報時是只要寫這個災損的情形嗎還是他可以要求必須進行災害根本的原因分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13592.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13592.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
除非他回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13601.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13624.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
就是就災害的這個復建我們傳統的就如同委員講的說回復原狀但是我們現在的標準是回復原來的功能所以回復原來的功能會根據它現在的地質的狀況還有核穿的條件等等去配套那並不是說很呆板的這個就回復原狀謝謝你剛才提到這個問題但是這個問題也在這邊因為我們現在要寫的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13628.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13655.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
這些災損的時候我們要要求在災後一個月內提報那災後這一個月內提報如果要達到你的功能恢復的話那我怎麼做水文怎麼做地質分析我只能提告最簡單的方案就是恢復原狀那目前我們得到的資訊如果我有這個資訊上面的落差的話隨時歡迎來糾正我那工程會的審議還是注重在進度管理跟施工的速度所以說如果我們現在要做的是根本改變的話或者是你說功能改變的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13657.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13666.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
功能恢復的話那變成說你又要協調上有整治可能會涉及跨部會可能會涉及環評那時間如果拉長可能就變成高風險的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13667.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13692.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
跟委員報告剛剛提到的一個月是我們一個原則但是如果有一些特別的情況或者是這些範圍比較大的時候實際上我們是給他可能一個月他先提報說可能先規劃的費用或者什麼所以會等到規劃設計完了以後再去確認工程費我們還也是有這種機制的好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13693.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13713.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我現在講的是不是我們嘉義是桃園的這個連外的枕頭山的吊橋的那件事件那這個案子是有被監委這個糾正那說他歷時8年那可是花了326萬規劃經費可是到最後他還是沒有辦法解決根本的問題他就是恢復原狀會比較安全那 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13713.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13729.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我們嘉義有一個叫嘉義肉桶農路它也是有類似的問題它不斷地修那它每年還是會塌但我們現在要根本性地解決這個問題的話那就會花很多的經費跟執行的時程我們是不希望說單純地恢復原狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13730.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13758.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
或者是說你說恢復它的功能它就是連外等等可是它只要風雨一來又要再來一次所以有沒有辦法我們來想像一下就是工程會統籌這樣的這種公共工程的重任有沒有辦法我們來解決不是只是單一的工程它的功能恢復而是我們要想的是以任務為導向我們的任務是讓這一個部落可以連外而不是以說我的任務是讓這個橋能夠修復這個部分想請教工程會的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13761.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13788.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
委員說明那既然是災害那就是有時候要搶災搶險先恢復一般的使用那至於整個功能的改變或者是原狀的改變那可能剛剛講的可能需要一些比較長的計畫或者是環評我想那個回歸到正常各部位的本預算那因為搶這個整個災害防救的預算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13789.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13812.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
全部是由特統這邊來支出這比較緊急的當然是沒有辦法一次解決問題所以希望回到正常的本預算來處理我今天講這個問題就是說我們當然是支持就是應急先我們救急救災的時候我們都是希望說盡快的有一個方案出來但是我今天講這個問題在於說很多時候是地方政府你說叫他協調各個部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13813.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13835.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
他們又要找水利署農業部國土署但有些時候地方政府沒有那個位階來去做整體的協調另外一個就是說有些地方我們剛才提到的種種的基礎建設它根本不適合一直投入資源去修復那一段甚至是我們要想的是說有沒有其他的方式來去整體評估它的長期的成本效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13836.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13861.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
你如果說它這個地點它本來就是抑制災案件它本來就是抑被損壞的地方那我們是不是要思考說其他的方式以任務為導向來想說我的任務是要連外那這個地方為什麼每次都會塌陷那是不是表示這個地方不適合建造這個公共工程所以說我們有一個資料庫的話那我們就可以讓每一個案件就是說5年10年的資料彙整出來就是說有這個資料庫我們審議的時候會發現到說這個地方為什麼重複災損 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13864.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13879.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
重複災損不斷的在投入這個金額然後你發現到有一天原來我已經投入了數以百億計在維護這座橋但事實上我乾脆就可以做整體規劃都可以所花費的這個價格還低於重複修復這座橋 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13881.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13903.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
所以說我們在講的這個卓院長講的AI內閣的意思不就是首先要有數據庫資料庫有資料庫之後你才知道警示點說這個地方我們是不是過多的投入資源在治標那我現在要治根本的話我可以發覺到說原來我只要投入這樣子的資本就可以投入整體的這個規劃改建那就是以任務為導向那這個地方是給一個建議那是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13904.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13918.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我自己不是土木工程的專家但是是有很多地方的這一個人士來包含這一些相關的土木技師是有跟我們建議這樣子你的意見非常好我們會遵照這個意見來 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13920.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13935.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
由跟組總或其他各部會在他執行這種天然災害救治的時候他相關的這個累積的數據累積的預算 累積的工法能不能定期做一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13936.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13961.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
有些易淹水低積或易崩塌地區是否一定要每一次的這樣去恢復原狀為主應該長期來看這個我們會再協調各部會來就是請工程就不只是恢復原狀從根本上面來把這個基礎建設把它完成就是任務為導向我就是要讓他出去年外那或許不是這一個道路或許是有其他的方式或許是有其他的工法這樣子好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13964.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13990.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
好謝謝陳冠廷委員發言完畢現在請邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在現在請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在現在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在現在請葉元之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14005.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14032.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
主席好 麻煩請主委 謝謝 請陳主委委員好 主委好因為主委您是統籌丹納斯颱風以及728豪雨災後的復原重建工作嘛那我先問你一個問題啦 您覺得那個時候成立雲嘉南復原的前進指揮所的時間 您認為會不會太慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14033.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14055.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我跟文說明就災害防救法在搶災救災的時候那有一個前進指揮所那我們這個前進指揮所是災後復原我知道 問題是那個時候因為有很多長輩啊說要去那個掛帆布啊那時候總統去看就說要自己爬什麼的其實那個時候他們就已經有這個需求了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14055.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14079.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
然後一直到後來的時候才開始說要卓院長才說要加速然後才說要媒合營建廠商這個是災後復原我知道我現在講的就是災後復原我現在就是在講災後復原譬如說屋頂被吹走災後復原一定是災後才去復原所以你認為隔了一個月去復原的時間在主委的專業認定你覺得是剛剛好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14081.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14103.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
好 沒關係啦 你就跟那些災民就大家知道一下政府的態度嘛你覺得這個時間是剛剛好的所以大家沒有屋頂 你就自己想辦法去掛帆布這個都是媒體報導 不一定是真實所以媒體 你是講哪一個媒體報導不真實哪一件事情不真實這個有很多報導是不真實的現在大家在檢討那個災後復原的速度 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14104.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14125.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
當然搶災優先當然最好是能夠同時搶災同時復原可是如果沒有辦法的話我們去成立災後復原指揮所到10月底結束已經媒合了很多那是後來嗎人家風災是7月多發生的後來本來復原本來就是後來對不要歪樓我講的是速度我講的是時勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14126.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14140.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
對啊 你不是 你講十月底我講的是七月的事你跟我講到十月因為七月發生的七月發生的風災七月發生的風災你跟我說十月完成很多那你就不夠那個苦民所苦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14143.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14159.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
對於災民而言他當然希望速度越快越好我沒有問你十月底嘛我現在問你七月之後要多久成立復原指揮所嘛那是搶災嘛我現在講的是復原當然嘛 但是時間嘛你到底是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14165.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14182.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
不會太慢所以一個月成立不會太慢我們是從前復原不是不是前進不是因為第一個因為我看你的報告你其中有個業務你也要負責比如說他屋頂如果被吹走了然後你們要幫他復原嘛煤河嘛這也是你的業務之一嘛對不對沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14183.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14205.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這個我們下去沒和這個屋頂受損的然後營造廠商去來修繕所以當然這個速度當然是第一個嘛但沒關係我們就看你的態度我覺得太慢但你如果你覺得ok的我到10月底完成那麼多件已經覺得很滿意了我覺得我是覺得速度太慢但是因為您是主委所以我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14206.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14230.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那個您講什麼大家看在眼裡啦但我想問一下台南市因為最近最近又有其他颱風鳳凰颱風來我發現很多台南市的災民很緊張因為他們到現在屋頂都還沒有恢復還是該反撲然後根據數據這個說詞也太誇張了我還沒有講完不用緊張那根據那個數據顯示大概台南市講法是說當時是有四萬七千 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14231.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14242.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
800戶是有那個屋頂需要修繕那現在已經完成九成了那因為各種原因所以到目前為止還沒有還沒有修繕完畢那主委你有掌握那個原因是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14244.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14269.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
沒有住在那裡 有的是倉庫 領了未住均他暫時不需要居住 有的是產權的問題我們每一個區公所一戶一戶去詢問你有沒有需要媒合修繕你如果不需要就簽名 整個調查的清清楚楚所以按照你的說法是那一層現在沒有修繕的是因為他有簽結書 各種原因嗎有各種原因 並不是政府不盡力 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14270.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14292.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
但我也是有看到災民就是在媒體上面講說你又說媒體媒體能夠是真實的嗎百分之百真實的嗎那你去跟NC檢舉嘛我跟你講說我們每一戶都去問過了嘛那就是有災民就是說沒有嘛我們就每一戶都去問過了嘛那他可能有原因但你就是要去跟他談啊你不是說你簽結你有住在這邊我們就是每一戶都去問他 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14293.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14319.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
那我問你一種狀況 如果他就是住在那邊但他不知道什麼原因 因為我有看到一些原因啊他什麼長輩生病不宜動工啊 或者是他要指定工班啊像類似這種就是拖延嘛可是在這種情況之下 工程會是允許的嗎就說好 那你說不要就不要 就讓他這樣然後等到下一次風再來 屋頂整個被吹走你們是允許這樣的狀態嗎不是允許不允許 這個是修繕 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14320.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14344.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
是契約 民間的契約關係你是民宅 然後有一個公班要來做政府不能強迫你說一定要給這個公班做啊我知道不能強迫 但是在溝通上面不是說我覺得溝通上不是講說他哪一些原因然後就好好好你簽人 那到時候出事你自己負責不是用這種態度 而是說要跟他講清楚說現在極端氣候常常會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14345.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14369.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
一些狀況 要勸說他趕快 勸說他趕快弄否則的話 沒有人料得到11月還會有提供來台南市政府的區公所的員工非常辛苦 每一戶都去問但是還是要去溝通啦 因為到目前為止 七月到現在還有一層那有一些是還有住在那邊的那我覺得還是要去溝通啦我覺得還是要去溝通 不是說你簽了協議書就不理你這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14370.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14397.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
然後再來喔 這個竹瑞寧是監管那個水利署嘛我剛剛有看你對媒體的發言啦 你說水利署非常認真到昨天晚上已經加速完工去把那個那個村長說是開口啦 水利署說不是開口啦那個叫做堤防沒有蓋到那邊啦 本來就沒有堤防啦但不管怎麼樣那邊有個洞是事實嘛 對吧然後水也是從那個地方溢流過來的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14398.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14409.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那村長在7月、9月以及11月10號都有跟水利署說那個洞可能有危險因為蘇郡河道跟河床是平行的水可能會從那邊過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14410.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14436.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
結果11月10號那時候水利署去會刊跟村長說雖然你放心啦不會有問題就最後真的有問題但我不知道主委你的態度是什麼因為到目前為止你是講水利署很認真我沒有說他們不認真他們確實很認真昨天晚上把它處理好但問題是淹水是來不及啦已經淹了啦你淹完之後才處理好有什麼用那這件事情主委怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14438.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14460.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這個馬太安溪的北側鳳林跟萬榮這個地形都不用再解釋我現在是講說因為現在關鍵是就是跟地形有關我現在講的是那個洞沒有補那裡也沒有洞因為地形比較高堤防沒有坐到那一邊嘛對我剛剛有講現在河床很高河床跟堤防一樣高所以雨多一點任何一個地方都會溢流 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14461.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14478.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以你認為說水利署所以目前最最要緊的就趕快紓進而且要大量長期的紓進我現在在講說我現在是在講說到底這個事情水利署有沒有責任水利署長也有道歉了跟村長道歉畫面大家都看到你也不會講說那也是新聞也是錯的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14478.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14490.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
然後村長也不但提醒說那邊有個洞 不管是堤防沒做到那邊也好改天我請委員到現場看一看 你就知道當場地形是怎麼樣嘛那你本來就比較高的地方嘛一定跟地形有關嘛水利署長道歉的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14493.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14518.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那水域署長就要你的態度就好啦 用你的方式去嗆村長就好啦那你就去嗆村長啊 你跟村長道歉幹嘛那你為什麼要跟村長道歉村長一直提醒說這個地方要補 他沒有補 所以他道歉那主委你認為沒問題啊 還要叫村長去看地形啊用這種高傲的態度去嗆村長就好那水域署長為什麼要道歉嘛那今天水域署長道歉 代表一定是有一些因做沒做的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14520.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14536.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
但是我看到主委的態度是說水利署很認真我也認為很認真我們現在講的是事前的預防的部分嘛你的態度是什麼嘛那你的態度是什麼嘛就是用嗆的所以你要去看那個地區才會知道嘛那水利署長道歉的原因是什麼那水利署長道歉的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14539.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14550.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
他整個地方淹水他是主管機關第一淹到一戶他就要道歉淹到兩戶他就要道歉所以他道歉不是因為他因作為作是因為只要有淹水他就道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14552.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14570.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
不是因作為作好不好所以他是因為有淹水就要道歉是不是標準就是有淹水水一爽就會道歉他要道歉的原因是因為是因為有人受苦所以道歉是這樣嗎整個淹水啊跟地形跟狀況都有關我不接受你這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14570.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14590.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我知道有關啊 我們現在講的是我們現在講的是說到底有沒有應做未做的事情嘛您是去扯那些幹嘛 略行當然都有關啊但是如果把那個缺口就是堤防沒做好部分如果可以補齊的話會不會不造成淹水右邊比較高 他本來不需要做堤防的啊我沒有說不做堤防你一直問東答西你一直問東答西 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14595.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14620.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我也多尊重委員的發言那葉委員時間是6分鐘也超過3分鐘也將近9分鐘那我也多尊重委員的發言內容我要是請工程會將相關地形的這個問題啊來具體的來向葉委員做報告再請相關的官員來跟葉委員做個報告也請這個在委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14624.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14647.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
答詢或者是質詢必須要尊重對方那今天這個時間我想也給葉委員充分的時間了我也請工程會來將相關的這個地形以及相關葉委員認為有爭議的地方必須清楚的來做說明會後來做清楚的說明那葉委員是否可以謝謝 謝主席謝謝葉委員質詢完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14651.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14677.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那登記諮詢委員均與發言完畢做以下決定 已報告及詢討完畢委員您處於內會員U號所提書面諮詢列入紀錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請行政院公共工程委員會盡速與書面答覆本日會議結束散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14694.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14695.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
響鐘 |