| IVOD_ID |
17026 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17026 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-12T08:36:26+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-12T12:20:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:43:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc456f1a8eac090e919652e807a0f93f53914d0d15f34b2c02a0898053d17f4b0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查
（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「少年事件處理法第七十四條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員林月琴等24人擬具「少年事件處理法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「少年事件處理法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員沈發惠等16人擬具「少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「少年事件處理法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答】
【11月12日及13日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:26 - 12:20:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1484.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1505.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初席委員9人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法治委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年11月5日星期三上午9時1分至11時19分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1506.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1523.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
下午二十三十五分至五十十一分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十三人列席委員賴時保委員等十九人列席官員考試院秘書長劉建興等人主席汪昭吉委員小林報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1525.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1540.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
討論事項繼續賓安審查委員賴世寶等三十一人擬拒公務人員退休自檢撫恤法第三十七條條文修正草案等二十六案決議大體討論完畢進行逐條審查第三條第八條第三十七條及附表三 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1540.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1555.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
韓委員翁曉琳等三人 委員黃國昌張啟凱等五人所提修正動議第三十八條 其增令附表三之一韓委員翁曉琳等三人 委員黃國昌張啟凱等五人所提修正動議第六十七條 韓委員黃國昌張啟凱等五人所提修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1556.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1575.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
均保留送院會處理本案審查完據擬據審查報告提請院會公決須交由黨團協商院會討論時由翁交集委員小林出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及醫事人員整理通過動議一項及經表決未通過附議案議案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1578.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1602.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們議事錄就要等一下達到法定人數三人以後我們再行確定我們接著來介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員在場委員 照處理我們就先不介紹我們先介紹應邀列席的官員我們司法院副秘書長 王美英副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1603.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1608.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
還有法務部我們政務次長徐錫祥次長其他就不用聽那麼多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1616.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1639.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那我們其餘為己介紹的列席代表請參閱名單我們就不再逐一的介紹並列入公報記錄那我們本次的議程討論的事項的排定在我們司法院跟行政院函請審議少年事件處理法部分條文的修正草案等七案 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1640.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1649.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在我們提案說明跟報告以後我們今天進行報告跟詢答現在我們進行提案說明及報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1657.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1670.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那請機關代表黃國昌委員到場請機關代表報告每位發言就三分鐘我們現在就請我們司法院副秘書長王梅英副秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1677.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1705.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席各位委員各位信義大家早安本院奉邀前來貴委員會就少年事件法部分條文修正草案提出報告深感榮幸敬請指教那本次修正的那個重點說明如下第一呢是多元處遇的轉換機制深化個案處遇的效能那為了使少年法院可以適時的依少年的需求彈性調整保護處遇呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1706.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1727.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這一次的修正賦予了少年法院更多元的處遇轉換機制那因應個案的狀況來做出彈性調整以落實兒童權利公約少年最佳利益及處遇多元化的原則此次修正呢增設了處遇轉換的機制呢包括保護管束轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1728.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1747.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
安置辅导安置辅导转保护管束停止感化教育后的多元衔接那第二个重点呢是付条件前岸记录图销现行少事法第八三条之一的前岸图销制度它的立法目的是在于鼓励少年自新顺利复归社会 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1748.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1771.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那但是呢未免無條件借其塗銷呢過於理想化的疑慮本院此次修正草案提出了將借其自動塗銷改為附條件那個塗銷也就是說那個少年保護等處分宣告執行或赦免後的三年內沒有再故意觸犯刑法法律而受 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1772.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1798.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
保護處分刑事宣告者才能夠視為未承受個該宣告而可以塗銷那第三個修正是因應刑事訴訟法增訂特殊強制處分專章那本次修法增訂了準用刑事訴訟法相關規定另外統一法律用語格式還有配合相關法律的修正以及擴大權力救濟等事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1799.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1807.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那至於其他委員所提的草案呢審發會委員羅廷威等委員提的那個內容本院並無不同意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1809.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1838.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就前案記錄塗銷條文的部分林月琴等委員 沈博洋等委員羅廷威等委員的提案與本院所提的草案塗銷條件略有不同翁曉琳等委員提案擴大了少年事件強制輔佐的範圍廖維祥等委員提案就重大犯罪的司法裁量權限縮 調整免刑門檻本院都尊重貴院的審查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1839.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1853.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
以上報告敬請委員各位先進指教 謝謝好 謝謝王副秘書長我們接下來請法務部政次徐錫祥次長來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1860.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1880.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席代表本部報告並被質詢那至報告如下 敬請指教一 為保障少年健全之自我成長調整其成長環境並矯正其性格少年事件處理法經歷108年 112年的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1881.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1909.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
包含不选少年去标签化缩短司法介入事由建制不选少年行政辅导先行机制尊重少年主体权及保障程序权并推动资源整合平台增订多元处理措施等重建少年与社会社群之连结本次行政院会选司法院再次提出少年事件处理法的部分条文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1909.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1934.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
與本部權責有關這部分報告如下瓜福一 增訂司法警察調查少年觸犯刑法法律之行為必要時準用刑事重罰特殊強制處分之規定這是修正條文第十八條之七瓜福二 將少年行為被害人及其法定代理人得救不負保護處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1935.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1947.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
之裁定申請重新審理之事由修正與刑事訴訟法規定用語一致並增訂准用刑事訴訟法關於申請人得委任待遇人到場權 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1948.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1971.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
得申請調查證據等規定 這是在修正條文第64條之二第四 瓜福三 應應監獄行刑法修正著作文字的修正那這是修正條文的第80條 瓜福四刪除無期徒刑執行逾7年後得假釋之規定 這是修正條文第81條瓜福五 這是大家比較關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1973.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1997.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
少年視為未曾受宣告得突銷前案記錄之情形處不負審理不負保護處分者外其餘不再區分各種情形而有不同年限的規定均修正為三年並增訂需在因故意觸犯刑法法律而受保護處分或刑之宣告之條件這是修正條文第83條之一 瓜佛六 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1997.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2013.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
大院另有相關委員提案修正部分或特定條文包含修正少年得免除期刑之案件類型為最重本刑7年以下有期徒刑或增訂少年事件保護處分間的轉換機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2016.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2031.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
少年法院應為少年指定輔助人之情形充實少年程序保障以及增加少年前案記錄得圖銷之條件以達預防再犯的目的本部尊重主管機關意見及大院委員之職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2033.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2050.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
結論本次兩院會選送大院審議的之少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案增訂少年事件多元化保護處分間轉換機制對於少年前案塗銷的相關規定予以修正發揮預防再犯的效果本部將持續 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2052.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2065.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
關注觸犯刑法法律少年及暴嫌少年涉入犯罪之情形及趨勢變化適時提供相關法治意見以達保障少年健全成長以及維護社會安全之目標以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2068.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2082.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好 謝謝我們許正次的報告那我們由於議事錄先前已經宣錄完畢 尚未確定我們現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2083.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2099.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒有的話我們議事錄就確定了那我們現在先來進行提案的說明委員提案說明前我們這個剛剛議事錄已經確定那我們現在提案說明委員就一個人三分鐘了好不好那我們先請在場的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2101.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2117.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
提案委員、廖委員、韋翔沒有出席沒有在場羅委員、羅廷委員沒有在場林委員、岳勤沒有在場沈委員、柏陽沒有在場沈委員、發慧沒有在場我們現在請翁曉琳委員來進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2129.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2147.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
首先非常感謝我們睿智的莊昭偉今天排審少年事件處理法的草案我們知道國家的未來在少年但是我們的孩子 我們的少年有時候卻是社會當中最脆弱最需要幫助的一個群體 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2148.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2162.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
大家都知道台灣的少年司法有一個非常崇高的目標就是要健全少年的成長那麼在這個過程當中少年事件輔佐人基本上就是少年的引路人 守護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2163.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2192.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那么他们不只是保护程序上的权利更是要协助更需要是协助法院那么让孩子能够安心的勇敢在法院当中表达自己帮助他们重新站起来但是我们看看现代的法规在少年事件处理法第31条规定只有当孩子犯了罪侵本刑三年以上的重罪的时候法院才必须要强制指定辅佐人 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2193.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2220.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那這樣的規定足夠嗎我想當然是不夠的大部分最需要幫助的少年他們的案子或許沒有那麼重但是他們面對司法程序的恐懼無助和壓力是一點都沒有少如果我們只看罪的輕重那麼那些因為家庭貧困因為身心障礙因為身份的隔閡而本來就處於程序弱勢的孩子們 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2220.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2232.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他們在法庭上將會是孤單的無助的沉默的那麼這絕對是違背了我們憲法當中對於少年應該予以特別保護以及輔助的承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2233.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2257.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那麼相對的對於成年人在刑事訴訟法裡面其實已經將強制辯護的範圍擴大到包含身心障礙者原住民和經濟弱勢那麼如果成年人在法庭上面都能獲得這樣的保障那我們的少年這些心智和資源都不夠成熟的孩子難道不應該獲得更高的保護標準嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2258.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2279.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那麼讓少年在程序保障上面能夠受到如果處於比成年人更低的地位我想這是非常不妥的所以身為立法者我們有責任要去確保若是少年能夠獲得適當的法律協助避免因為資源的不足或是能力受限而影響到訴訟防禦權落實憲法對少年特別保護的意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2283.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2290.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以在此我提案少事法第31條的修正就是希望能夠給予每個孩子實質的平等為孩子們搭起一座司法的保護網那麼將身心障礙的少年原住民少年還有經濟弱勢的少年等等那麼能夠納入強制輔佐的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2303.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2319.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
希望能够透过辅佐人专业而且及时的介入我们能够有效的避免这些弱势少年那么因为无知或是无诛而受到二次的伤害让整个少年事件的处理程序能够真正做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2319.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2334.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
完善周延充滿希望所以在此也請大家可以共同支持邵氏法第31條修正草案讓我們一起為這些需要光亮的孩子點燃一炷希望的燭火謝謝大家謝謝翁曉琳委員很充分專業的一個說明接下來我們請林月琴委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2360.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2387.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
各位委員還有政府部門的代表先進 大家好我是立法委員林月琴今天我在此提出少年事件處理法第83條之一條修正草案那懇請各位支持本提案的緣由是基於兒童權利公約跟少年事件處理法第一條保障少年健全成長的立法精神跟意志提出對案版本的調整跟修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2388.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2414.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
因此在83條之一的修法方向上我參考第十條一般信義監書第六十七點次那將少年前案的圖銷的排除適用限縮在故意觸犯刑法法律而受到五年以上有期徒刑宣告的嚴重觸法而少並且針對前案涉及不同形態處於的少年設計層級化的一個圖銷年限 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2417.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2431.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
藉此回應CRC也就是兒權公約意見書中有關的一個必要性的建議此外我也誠摯的期盼各位關心司法少年議題的委員同仁共同關注少年輔導跟矯正處於資源匱乏的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2435.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2462.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
舉凡本次修法保護處分轉換機制的一個調整我相當肯定司法院勇於提出利益良善且符合主義多元化的一個精神但在實務上司法轉向的一個安置輔導的案件量持續探低問題就是出在缺乏足夠的支持資源跟專業人員的挹注導致民間團體接手的時候那他們事實上是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2463.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2484.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
來做承擔那這樣的問題除了依賴修法更需要各界的關注跟跨部會的資源整合跟協調終上懇請各位能夠共同審視此一攸關少年輔導處遇的問題並懇請支持我的修正草案給犯錯的孩子一條自新的道路謝謝大家 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2486.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2503.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
好 謝謝林月琴委員 你的判本我看了 寫得很詳細不輸給司法院 但是就是你講的那個概念偷偷在轉變這個就到時候你要好好的出席來審這樣的這一部法案來 我們接下來其餘我們提出書面報告的機關有沒有口頭的補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2514.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2528.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
機關代表報告完畢了相關的書面內容請各位參閱並列入記錄提案說明跟機關的報告都已經進行完畢我們現在來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2531.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2545.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
必要時我們得延長兩分鐘就8加2啦非本會委員詢答時間五分鐘我們就不再延長然後上午我們10點半截止發言登記現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員來做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2557.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2585.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩有請司法院副秘書長法務部政務次長請王副秘 徐政次好 委員長委員長來 兩位早時間的關係直接切入正題那個PPT對不起 先等一下兩位好 時間的關係不宜問候 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2586.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2609.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
法務部在今年的業務報告說要落實武打七安強化打擊詐欺這些業務報告大概都是寫作文每一次的業務報告抄來抄去都是延續過去的作為我們來看一下過去的作為到底是如何我們的政府說要打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2614.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2638.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
有打詐國家隊丟臉丟到國際社會上太子集團跑來台灣設詐欺洗錢總部就在我們的101裡我們的打詐國家隊渾然不覺 麻木不仁美國人辦案辦到台灣來了才驚醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2640.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2664.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
原來這個跨國的詐欺洗錢集團已經在我們的101入住啦過去這段時間 我相信社會大眾對於這件事情的憤怒以及對於我們的法務部門檢調部門的無能的這些聲音 次長有沒有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2667.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2685.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
報告委員 我們有在檢討 那禮拜一沒關係 你們繼續檢討嘛國安一律 打造國家會對 各說各話各說各話要 各說各話到什麼時候現在開始進行國家足球隊的比賽什麼時候會有結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2687.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2702.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
出了事嘛 發現我們的打造國家隊是一場笑話麻木不仁 趕快裝忙 開會檢討檢討完了以後繼續觀樣文章 各說各話需要多少的時間 來 請法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2705.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2726.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
報告委員我想我們需要多少時間針對問題回答我今天問題很多啦我也不要耽誤其他委員的時間我們週一已經開完那個跨部會的會議了而且各部會呢針對我們目前好你們跨部會會議有會議記錄嗎有那會議記錄會後給我可以嗎可以下班以前送來可以嗎不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2727.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2747.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
現在還在整理好 沒關係 需要多久 給我一個時間一個禮拜一個禮拜 好 一個禮拜以後給我索隆派說台北101是國家門面不能讓它變成詐騙 贊不贊成贊成這個案子是台北101成為詐欺營運中心的首案嗎是第一個案子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2748.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2769.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個我要查一下還要查喔這麼嚴重欸行政院院長都講話了欸說是 101是國家門面不能成為詐騙的中心欸啊你們不是打詐國家隊所以我才問你嘛101成為詐騙中心太子集團是第一個案子嗎是嗎知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2771.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2799.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
後面法務部的官員有沒有任何人知道是第一個案子嗎這個我們必須要了解一下不能必須要了解一下嘛對啊所以我就說你們麻木部門啊你們早就知道了或者我應該說你們早就應該要知道了為什麼我說你們早就知道了你們早就應該要知道了因為這件事情我在這邊質詢過來看一下莊文智啊金融詐騙重犯莊文智啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2801.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2828.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
設了好幾間公司在101啊當初啊他要跑的時候啊你們在追他啊司機從豪宅離開直奔101大樓他為什麼直奔101大樓他開的公司全部都在101裡啊這個你們不知道啊 這你們不知道中文字欸 金融重範欸還是因為他八股很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2830.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2848.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
早就錄住101了啦中文字就是一個最有名的案子啊包委員 個案細節的部分陳辦的檢察官會比較清楚我們個案不會去干預說那這樣子的話現在左榮泰是不是在干預個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2850.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2875.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
101不能成為詐騙中心不是左榮泰講的嗎這跟個案無關沒有這樣子的個案左榮泰會講這樣的話這是一個國家政策的問題當然是一個國家政策的問題嘛但是國家的政策有沒有落實是大家關心的嘛現在我為什麼提出質詢左榮泰講這樣的話好像赫然發現太子集團是第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2876.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2905.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以呢行政院院長特別重視不能成為詐騙中心全體國人都支持嘛連院長都講話了嘛但我在講的是什麼我在講的是卓榮泰是不知不覺嗎今天才發現嗎早就該發現啊為什麼早就該發現中文字的案子就有名的啊很厲害啊非常厲害啊他涉及到犯罪行為還有民進黨的立委要幫他修法脫罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2909.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2918.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
他的詐騙營運總部就設在101啊然後呢 他詐騙營運總部設在101的我提出告發了以後你們才動起來啊我2023年2月的時候就去告發啦結果你們2025年4月才起訴我覺得非常驚訝因為告發的時候所有的市政都告訴你們啊偵辦了兩年多欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2940.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2951.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
偵辦了兩年多終於起訴了我上一次問另外一位市長黃某熙他說他會去了解為什麼要花兩年多的時間請問了解完了嗎請問了解完了嗎他就在那個備詢台上答應我他要回去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2960.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2988.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我事證整理得這麼清楚他說要回去了解搞了兩年多你知道為什麼搞了兩年多嗎因為相關的事證比較繁雜真的嗎 相關事證比較繁雜其他的早就判刑了還相關事證比較繁雜講空話真的有去了解喔其他人都被判刑了只放了一個中文字連高院法官都看不下去啊說這個首腦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2991.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3017.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我沒有辦法判因為檢察官沒有起訴法官在判決書裡面寫這個詐騙的集團的首腦我沒有辦法判因為刑事訴訟他沒有被檢察官起訴我法官沒辦法判那代表什麼代表這個案子不僅早就查完了連法院端都審判了結果去告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3019.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3047.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為我看了以後我是瞠目結舌這個中文字真是神通廣大神通廣大下面的人都辦了結果首腦沒有辦首腦為什麼沒有辦法官為什麼沒有判因為我們的檢察官沒起訴然後我去告發然後你現在跟我講說案件很龐雜要偵辦兩年多你站在那邊講空話 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3051.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3079.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我有說錯嗎回去看一下2023年2月到你起訴為止請問那個卷證增加多少卷證就是檢察官的偵查作為嘛辦案指揮單嘛派了警察 派了調查員去幹了什麼事嘛卷宗裡面都要有啊我跟你保證啊2023年2月以後的那個卷證啊薄薄的一本 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3080.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3098.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
薄薄的一本讓你感覺不到它的存在為什麼因為其他該有的偵查作為早就做完了只是沒有起訴中文字我有說錯嗎我有說錯嗎你拿出事實拿出證據來反駁我說我說錯站在國會裡面講空話你知道為什麼拖兩年多才起訴嗎市長你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3109.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3133.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個要了解好啊 不用了解我直接跟你講因為人跑了啦因為人跑了啦中文字跑掉了啦逃亡了以後才起訴大家在問的是我們是在搞笑嗎是在搞笑嗎人跑了才起訴大家恍然大悟啊為什麼拖這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3135.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3150.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
快給他照 確定他跑了再來起訴這叫打炸國家隊 這叫丟人現眼丟人現眼跟立法院要這麼多預算 拿去幹什麼來 三立的一模一樣 我也公開質詢過 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3162.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3180.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
詐騙洗錢的公司設在三立集團的裡面我上次問結果宣傳股份有限公司負責洗錢的這家公司現在辦解散了我上次問黃某信他就說這個我們一定會追查來 請問追查到哪裡追查到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3190.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3218.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
有在追查嗎個案的那個北檢在追查中現在還在追查 沒關係沒關係我只要定期就會問一次你就慢慢跟大家講我們都還在追查我們打詐很有利啦但是打詐很有利要看顏色啊如果跟綠營關係好的就軟趴趴啦動都不動 跟你說還在偵查從我上次問到現在要偵查多久來 我們再繼續往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3219.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3236.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這是聯合報的社論炸團跟綠網軍二合一的魔性組合內容你們自己慢慢去拜讀這個是寫到報紙的社論他講的是什麼事情他講的是有一個黃域科技網軍集團裡面有個歐秉漢 氣泡檢討 人跑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3240.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3257.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
他做了什麼事情 做了趙振宇拿錢給他 要去黑誰 黑邱若驊的事情抹黑惡意汙止邱若驊與地方黑幫勾結邱委員是被害人 我不幫他發聲 邱委員自己去問但除了這個以外發現 這個詐騙集團這個詐騙集團 原來還經營網軍業務李能謙 網軍投資 前三立電視製作人 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3269.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3284.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
然後偽冒黃仁勳詐騙粉專然後結果他在搞的是什麼有7000個人頭賬戶在惡意醜化台灣民眾黨跟我黃國昌我看了這個新聞我是非常的詫異這個案子有在辦嗎還是簽結了這案子有在辦嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3290.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3314.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這案子有在辦嗎因為很奇怪這個案子還是在偵查中還在偵查中嘛繼續偵查好好偵查我們拭目以待看你什麼時候會偵查出來主席不好意思最後一分鐘就好了問一下司法院來請司法院副秘書長上一次針對有關於司法院施政計畫綱要我問你說你們明年的跟今年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3316.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3337.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
你要回去比對嘛比對的比例有多少是複製貼上我請你回去比對你跟我說遵照辦理你們有遵照辦理嗎比例是多少委員我們是有比對114年跟115年結果重複的比例是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3338.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3346.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
確實是有高於一半是那個只有高於一半嗎比例是多少因為妳告訴我遵照辦理嘛是對 但是妳們回給我的公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3347.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3369.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
根本沒有回答問題啊解釋一堆你解釋了一堆為什麼會一樣但是最關鍵的問題是我請你們回去比對你答應我要遵照辦理嗎是那請問你們比對完重複的比例有多高有大概八成啊只有八成喔八成多 對沒有關係你們回去詳細比對的資料會後今天下班以前給我可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3371.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3389.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
因為你上次答應我要做你沒有做啊我們有做啊那把東西給我可以嗎但是我們有跟委員講說那個為什麼就是因為沒有關係啊為什麼你們慢慢去解釋你們為什麼的公文我也看了你們為什麼也可以貼在司法院的網站昭告社會大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3390.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3402.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
為什麼比例有這麼高但我care的事情是什麼你答應我的事情要做到你說你回去有比對那我要求很簡單履行上次的承諾把你比對的結果給我可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3405.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3423.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我又沒有解那個講就是說譬如說像國民法官有沒有對不起啊我請你把你比對的結果給我可以嗎因為這是你上次答應我的但你沒有做到這件事你回覆給我的解釋一堆為什麼重複這麼高委員我們有確實有比對那比對的結果給我可以嗎可以嗎上次你答應我了今天我請你把比對的結果給我有這麼困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3436.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3461.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席不好意思 我在等他回答還是主席直接裁示請他把比對的結果給我他答應我的事情根本沒有給我啊說明一下好不好委員的那個裁示是要求我們比對那我們也比對了那我們比對之後也跟那個委員報告說這個比例 高比例的我們也說是有高比例的 是一樣那也說 但是你比對的結果給我有困難嗎我們除了數字 那是密切嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3465.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3477.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我請你比對的結果給我有困難嗎因為14年跟15年的這些施政計畫其實都是公開的對 但是你沒有回答我的問題我請你把比對的結果給我可以嗎還是召委你裁示一下我今天請他把比對的結果給我很過分嗎這是密件嗎 這是國家機密嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3490.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3509.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這是不得公開的卷宗嗎我們也有跟委員報告說哪些事項是重複的然後哪些事項是新增的那也解釋譬如說像國民法官他在每個階段雖然我們都寫說是國民法官的那個推動但是他每個階段有他實質做的不同我的問題還是一樣比對的結果給我可以嗎我們除了數字之外我們那個比對的這些內容也都有跟委員報告了說明交給委員沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3519.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3545.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
你給我的東西我現在貼在上面你不要透過這種用講的方式來混淆視聽讓大家覺得好像你們比對的結果有給我我再說一次你們比對的結果沒有給我請把比對的結果給我可以嗎那個資訊公開法應該要揭露事情我們都揭露了就是說114年跟115年那個施政綱要這個內容是大家通都可以去看的 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3546.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3551.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我現在請你把比對的結果給我啊這件事情召委才是啊 我們要這樣耗下去嗎好啦 我想啊 這個黃委員剛剛有提出的要求啦王富密他也很仔細的做一個說明啦可能就是你不滿意啦 好不好那再看看 如果沒有涉及到機密的話那如果該 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3570.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3589.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
沒有沒有 這個應該沒有涉及到機密那問題就是說司法院這個地方好像你聽起來王文明你認為你們也已經盡到說明還有回答的這樣一個義務那黃委員認為還有所不足我們接下來是不是先請陳培宇委員來做詢答以後這個問題我再來瞭解看看 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3590.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3613.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我相信你啦好啦 我來了解一下你要當核四啦 我相信你啦你們兩邊你提出的要求不是啦 你是法律人我講得很清楚啦你一定聽得懂啦我當然聽得懂但是王富密代表司法院在這個地方的詢答裡面似乎也講得說司法院也盡到這樣的一個比對的義務我再來看看原先黃委員的要求是什麼啦你就看他公文嘛好啦 這樣先讓陳佩儀委員來做詢答好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3620.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3621.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
好 請回好 謝謝主席我們今天大家都是帥哥美女主席說的好 那接下來有請司法院 謝謝請王副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3643.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3656.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
等一下 她電腦好 早 她電腦在更新不過沒關係 我就先講我們目前看到少事法要修法所以我們今天才會有這個討論第一個其實我想問的是關於我們如何界定所謂暴險少年何謂處罰少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3658.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3680.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我覺得這個事情應該也是所有現在要修法大人們最頭痛的事情但是可能大家都先關注到突銷的時間但是我想要從最本質的問題開始我們如何界定一個孩子他現在狀況是需要政府單位介入來協助所謂政府單位指的是教育端、社政端到最後才會是司法端 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3681.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3701.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那我們現在看到現行法的部分我們有關於當孩子們觸犯刑法的時候相關行為這個是所謂觸法少年那底下框列的在現行法裡面這些三個要點沒有正當理由帶著危險機械或者是用毒品或者是有預備犯罪這個比較像是曝險少年對不對這個當時我們在前一次修法的時候我們把這個框架限縮了那前一個版本就舊法的部分我紅色的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3709.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3727.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那個部分我們比較把它定義為是一種身份犯可能會給孩子貼標籤的問題也就是說在舊法跟現行法我們確實做了一些比較進步的改法我們不要給孩子貼標籤我們不要因為孩子有些身份好像就覺得他們是有可能是觸犯司法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3727.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3736.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
可是我想要拜託司法院去想另外一個事情當現在的社會生活跟社區生活的樣態越來越複雜的時候這樣現在現行版本的寫法真的可以真的匡列到所謂更多需要協助的少年嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3743.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3771.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
會不會其實範圍有不夠廣想得不夠多但我的意思是並沒有要給孩子貼標籤而是我們司法院在這件事情上因為這次修法你們其實沒有提出這個部分但我認為這個部分是應該我們現在要來想的尤其是現在很多委員都一起關心的很多詐團很多黑道把少年當成工具人這件事情確實相關的樣態是比我們過去在現行法在修現行法的時候來得更複雜你們怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3772.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3774.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我原這個部分我請那個邵家廳長好 沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3778.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3804.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
謝謝委員垂詢我先報告委員剛剛說明的暴險少年的一個範圍隨著時代有沒有思考去調整目前就施用第三第四級毒品以及迷幻藥品的部分目前我們食物在操作跟延伤法案裡面應該要增加持有 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3806.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3827.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那持有因為持有超過5公克就是有刑法法律那沒有超過5公克他吸食後一倍轉讓他都是屬於目前不顯的一部分這個急需要用需要吸就少年在邊緣應該去立即所以這個不顯隨著時代去思考不過剛剛委員講到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3829.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3843.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我們的少年被吸收到詐團去到了詐團去以後他去做收款或各項的行為這個已經觸犯刑法法律這個已經直接就適用少年私人處理法的保護事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3843.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3859.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
沒有問題這個我都清楚我要講的是如同你剛剛說的不管是持有的部分或者是更多的樣態我都認為因為我們在少事法裡面有分處罰少年跟曝險少年那曝險少年我們要用的是少年保護事件那我的意思是說站在積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3860.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3877.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
更進一步的保護少年的情況下我們要不要去想關於這個身分認定的部分關於這個範圍的部分我認為可以有更多討論不要只有談到突囂那我就先提出問題因為我也沒有答案說實話但我們從很多社政端跟教育端所看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3877.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3905.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
孩子們在面臨的困境其實非常非常多我們等一下一一來談但是我還是想要先提出對於第三條的部分我認為我們有必要重新來討論好不好來 下一個42條的部分要談到安置機構其實我之前也提過最近這兩年安置機構普遍不願意收容司法少年當然是因為司法少年的狀況比較複雜那安置機構目前在處理從射陣端來的孩子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3905.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3933.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
也很複雜那導致安置機構他們就覺得反正我就不要收而且錢也沒有比較多可是要處理的事情也很多然後我的人力也不見得充分結果我們很多孩子就直接被送到繳校去這個當時的資料你們自己也是認同說確實在第一線的判決有這個傾向可是我們看見第一個是我覺得很令我們擔心我們辦了非常多次考察我們看到其實繳校收容孩子的人數也不斷暴增包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3934.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3958.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
少關所其實也是一樣可是回到安置機構有沒有能力有沒有人力有沒有資源去收容司法少年我認為這個問題必須要司法院跟衛福部一起來承擔並且討論考慮如何積極協助司法少年可以好好的進入安置機構而安置機構有足夠的人足夠的錢足夠的空間協助這些司法少年來請你們簡單回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3960.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3987.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那個謝謝委員提出這個問題齁其實這個問題也是一直我們那個司法單位就是所關心的那立場完全跟那個委員一致齁因為畢竟法院端是司法單位我們不是設政單位那那個安置機構那個主管機關他是屬於設政這一端的所以法院呢他也覺得孩子有這個需求性想把他那個提那個就是把他那個裁定那個安置但是我們真的很困難去找到那個安置機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3987.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4013.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
目前只有11間是不是我們來看一下法院安置少年的需求可是沒有辦法實際媒合到安置機構我把相關數字統計出來在111年有8人 12年17人 113年 23人我想司法院這邊看得很清楚其實人數是逐漸上升也就是沒有辦法如願放到安置機構的司法少年其實人是越來越多而他回過頭來會壓到矯正學校所以我認為這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4015.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4033.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
既然少事法這一次要修了然後我們那個社安網也要展開新的階段我真的認為司法院要把這個問題積極的跟衛福部來討論跨部會溝通我們每一方面跨部會都接起來才可以把這些司法少年都接起來當然我們今天不會有答案可是我要再次把這個問題拋出來好嗎是好我們來看下一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4038.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4059.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
1976年的時候相關立法是說關於今天要談到這個塗銷的部分這個立法的流程我就寫在這邊不過我想你們兩位都非常清楚我就不再贅述可是我們現在看到行政院跟司法院的提案版本是說三年內未在因故意觸犯刑法法律而受保護處分或刑之宣告者視為未曾受各該宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4060.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4072.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
你們真的認為這個修法版本有機會提升避免少年被幫派跟詐團利用嗎我對這件事情是有一些懷疑的但我想先聽聽看你們的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4075.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4102.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
謝委員的垂詢這一個問題確實是過去我們一律沒有條件都把少年處罰的行為執行完畢兩年或三年就突銷了但近年來各類幫派或者詐團或者是各類犯罪把這些國中生高中生大量吸收那麼其中一個罪大家都了解的就是以少年接受輔導或感化教育出來紀錄都突銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4105.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4129.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
讓這些少年跟家長比較就會無所謂所以基於這樣參佐世界各國就一定的條件沒有突銷的部分來加以這個試著改變我國的少年司法你們這個在實務上有跟任何專家學者討論過或者是跟第一線的社工或在協助司法少年多年經驗的人討論過嗎這個三年內這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4133.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4161.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
是你們怎麼想出來怎麼討論出來的我說明一下這在司法院形成這樣的一個共識是有召開非常多的專家諮詢會議以及把國外的這個相關設有條件不塗銷的這些立法例年限都有收集那收集的結果因為我國原來採的是第一個立即塗銷就是說少年不負審理不保存確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4163.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4178.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
第二個就是非常輕微的這個所謂的教教養人家管教等這種不務審理的兩年突銷那一般的刑事處分或保護處分都三年突銷這是我國已經實施快20年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4179.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4201.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那麼經過專家學者在我們諮詢會議裡面提供的應該除了CRC兒童權利公會最嚴重之罪要付條件但因應我國現在因為大量的幫派化吸收少年是不是可以在某個限度內但是為什麼會訂三年是這樣各國立法有兩年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4202.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4223.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那麼也有五年的但是也有授權兩年內授權法官去裁量的那麼也有沒定期限只要是某個條件的罪都不徒消有這五大類我們發現國內實證研究還沒有但是收集到實務的資料最多就是國中生 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4223.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4226.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
是14歲 15歲那加3年就18歲這個最容易被吸收犯罪期就16 17 18這種高中職的16 17 18喔 對廠長 我覺得啦這個我們可以再討論因為為什麼我要特別問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4240.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4256.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我個人當然有我個人的見解不過我們之後逐條的時候再來討論不過這一次有非常多不管是朝野委員提案的版本其實大家對於這個年限或者是要再附加什麼條件其實大家見解非常的不同而且我們還要考慮到社會的人民對這件事情的觀感 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4257.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4274.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
大家對於司法少年到底是所謂的生物痛覺還是真的可以認知到孩子們在過去的生命成長經驗遇到了一些困境所以他走上歧路我認為這都還需要社會溝通所以我剛留些時間給您說明但我想今天時間有限我們就之後主條再來討論最後一個問題抱歉主席再幾分鐘就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4277.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4294.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
其實孩子講到這麼多其實在相關的少年更生保護協會他們就有一個演講裡面提到我今天談的很多事情其實過去我也都跟司法系統討論過孩子們最大的困境常常是出了矯正機構停止感化教育之後他回到原生家庭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4295.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4310.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
最慘的狀況就是壞掉的小孩壞掉的大人繼續教已經壞過一次的小孩對嗎 我相信你們都非常的清楚或者是我們很多社工師 心理師好不容易接住小孩可是他回到原生家庭之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4314.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4328.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我可以繼續嗎他回到原生家庭之後家庭已經壞掉了所以這個孩子在原生家庭沒有辦法被接住的情況下他可能又走回頭路所以我們剛才會談到突囂這件事情所以我認為我知道司法院的系統一直有在協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4329.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4348.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
相關的孩子的家長做家庭教育也好親子教育也好但是我認為這件事情不該只有落在你們身上拜託你們積極去找教育部溝通找衛福部溝通我們如何把社政教育端社政端教育端司法端結合起來協助家長的家庭教育也好親子教育也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4349.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4376.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
讓這些曾經壞掉的孩子他唯一一個可以安全去的地方就是他的家而這個家不要讓他繼續破碎我認為這件事情我們在教育部已經談了很久那教育部相關預算其實也不夠可是我非常感謝司法院第一線的同仁我們去考察的時候看到你們都有在做但是我認為這件事情我們要把教育現場的人拉進來把家長拉進來把教育部拉進來我可不可以聽一下你們的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4379.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4405.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
謝謝委員推詢謝謝這部分確實是非常重大的議題為什麼一個少年能夠各類輔導集中其中最重要的是家庭功能的提升所以家庭功能的提升謝謝委員剛剛也觀察到我們各個少年法庭調查保護室都在進行這樣的一個所謂親子教育的功能的恢復那我們現在因為有二級聯繫會議就是每一個法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4406.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4432.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
跟縣市政府的一個少年資源合作目前已經都提出了所謂的各縣市的教育局所屬的家庭教育中心依照這樣的一個法律規定他們裡面也有親子教育的一個推動跟預算所以我們政要努力去結合政要太好了也就是說過往可能在這一段跟家庭教育中心的連結比較弱拜託後續政要的部分我們如何拜託家庭教育中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4433.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4450.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
積極針對這些司法少年 個案家庭做更多協助然後把社政系統也導入不要讓第一線司法同仁都已經在處理司法案件都已經快要崩潰了還要花很多時間回過頭做家庭教育當然我還是要再次感謝我們去考察的時候看到同仁們在第一線的付出 好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4453.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4478.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
好 謝謝我們陳佩瑜委員那這一次我們這個排審這個少年事件處理法大家應該特別有感受到那其實過去整個少年事件處理法是採取教化啦比較寬容然後多元處理的一個方式那這麼多委員的版本其實我真的每一個我都有去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4478.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4486.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那我去做一個比較以後我現在發現其實司法院這個地方你們這次變得反而回應社會的一個疑慮你們變得激進了 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4487.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4510.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這是我的感覺所以我是覺得應該是好好的這部法律概念上你要去轉變的時候那確實應該跟社會好好的對話那提出這六個版本的委員的其實也都很專業那我的版本很快也會進來大家好好來做一個討論因為這個涉及到整個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4511.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4534.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
從過去概念大家都認為小孩子犯錯就是社會不對就是大人沒有去教好那現在我們認為這個要用特別預防甚至你沒有一定轉嫁你沒有自己承擔一點風險的話就不給你恩惠有類似這樣的一個概念所以可能大家就好好來做一個討論好 接下來我們來請林倩琦委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4543.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4557.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
好 謝謝我們主席莊昭偉我這邊先有一個前言當然也是呼應我們昭偉剛才所講的大概我們到現在這個階段很多不僅是概念轉變了但是在概念轉變的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4560.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4582.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
其實同樣的整個配套制度也必須要相對完整所以本席今天其實要針對這個少年事件處理法導入行政輔導先行的制度實務上面臨的兩大問題來跟各部會來更新一下目前的一個進度那麼第一個部分是中央層級跨部會整合機制的缺席本席之前一直提 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4583.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4602.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那第二個部分是地方執行量能與流程鍛煉的結構性困境制度強調預防優於懲罰但是如果沒有運作良好的治理中樞跟穩定的人力財務支撐最後只會指上改革就是剛才本席呼應我們主席這邊所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4603.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4618.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
其實配套的部分也必須要做得比較細緻所以像台南少府會最近就傳出性騷內鬥而導致空轉的這樣一個疑雲那麼在報載也明確提到台南少府會資源少 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4619.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4644.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以沒有強制力那各單位調來的職員多靠熱忱來工作所以本席以下就先針對設置少年事件中樞機構也就是如何在中央給錢給人來設置一個中央的統籌機構那接下來是不是請我們副秘書長跟法務部的徐次長請王副秘書長還有徐政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4646.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4671.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好 謝謝兩位所以第一個部分是中央的這個部分本席一直強調已經也好幾次了我們目前中央的統籌機構的缺席而導致整個評估標準分散在校安諮詢跟輔導網路那麼少年法院跟關戶體系還有警政通報 社政跟心理健康各自為政資料各自管理流程也不太相通 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4672.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4689.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那麼少府會在地方扮演一些協調的平台但是沒有中央的一個常設中樞的一個機構給予一些統一的標準績效的指標跟預算的一個支持那麼更缺少跨部會決策的一個資源調度實質的一個主導的一個指揮權 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4690.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4718.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
結果呢在地方上呢都會區勉強還可以上軌道但是呢非都會區或偏鄉長期是資源不足而導致機制空轉那麼司法院你們是不是認同應該設置本席之前有提出來的全國少年行政輔導與資源整合中心那也就是一個中央少婦會的概念然後來跨部會成為一個跨部會的中樞負責標準作業流程通報的資訊的一個整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4719.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4744.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
風險模型的一個建置跟量能落差的一個縮減可以做個案的一些支援這個部分會後是不是也可以再提供給本席最新的一個進度我這邊強調在一戰式的通報跟風險預警的重要性中央應該還是要建置一個跨部會的少年偏差行為通報整合的平台以單一的個案來串聯學校缺課 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4746.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4763.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
礦課、霸凌事件、警政的記錄、設政的服務還有就醫和心理的評估然後設定資料治理的規範跟權限要做分級導入結構化的風險工具如YLS或CMI或SAVERY的同類型的評估連動風險分級、儲遇的建議跟轉介的路徑、三段式的決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4771.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4799.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那麼這樣或許對涉毒幫派的一個吸收跟暴力傾向的高風險個案我們可以很迅速的來觸發應變轉入司法系統的一個標準那是不是司法院跟法務部可以就現行少年法院跟關乎體系的一個銜接跟資訊互動的情形還有評估的一個機制那把更詳盡的一個內容提供給本席那現在可以做一個簡單的一個回應嗎其實重點就是中央的這樣一個機構的一個設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4801.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4802.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那你們評估的一個可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4805.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4830.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
幫委員我們非常感佩委員對於少年制度的關心委員以上所提的這些建議因為它是屬於行政端的進入到法院之前或者是法院之後外圍的這一端它並不是一個司法議題所以說這個部分因為不是司法院的職權我們不便於就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4833.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4861.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
主要先前你其實有建議應該是在行政院下面來設置這樣一個平台對不對我們不會那個越權去做建議就是說因為它並不是一個司法司法的那個應該是說我們在談這個問題當中您這樣一個論調先前其實也有提過我們肯定這個方向是所以這相關的行政單位是不是也可以做一個回應這個是本席一直在關心也就是中央機構的一個設置然後能夠來銜接各地方實質的一個運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4863.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4877.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
報告委員因為邵府會的那個主管是內政部不是法務部所以大概目前的態度呢我們對主管機關的決定我們都支持委員的見解是比較完整性 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4878.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4899.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
因為現在真的是各地方這樣一個效果不彰我們這個預防的這樣一個效果其實在實時的運作上目前真的是有點轉不動尤其是偏鄉或者是財力人力都不太足的相對的都會區是有一個實時的問題因為這不是本部的業務所以我很不好意思不好幫人家回答 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4900.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4919.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
你們應該更積極一點大家都說有平台要跨部會但是各部會當你們談到本席所講的一個中樞的機構的時候其實你們應該更積極的做一個支持跟配合嘛委員的理想我們都支持但是就是保護部是主於犯罪偵查那個離少年的輔導還有一段距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4920.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4933.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
但是本席講的前面這段如果沒有做好你們後面就會很累所以我說我支持委員的看法謝謝法務部的支持接下來本席可不可以請警政署蕭副局長還有衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4939.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4961.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
郭副司長 是嗎還有教育部 戴副還有我們原民會的亞博省運處長也在當然原住民的議題是本席非常關心的今天因為我們在法案的這個部分也有提到跟原住民相關的本席的這個概念也希望原民會這邊也能夠了解剛才我已經講了一個整體的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4962.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4977.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
接下來我就要為地方來請命了地方所碰到的問題各部會所以我們都在講跨部會但是好像是如果沒有直接關擠或沒有很大的事件發生大家就是可能我們就很保守的對應 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4978.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4992.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
但是這樣一個我們目前這樣很大的一個概念的轉變其實在這幾年大家也看到地方確實是那個量能不足所以本席在這邊跟大家談一下現在地方的一個情形第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4993.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5017.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
是資料不太互通所以教育 警政 社政那麼原民我想我們也是一個等於是一個小內閣了那各自記錄那我相信那個原民會又更辛苦了這個部分在地方還要那麼多的事務還要再去追這個相關的這些主題的主管的這樣業務其實是各單位主管的業務也是蠻辛苦的但是畢竟這個部分還是要做因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5018.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5037.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我想這個原名的這個區塊在這裡面其實是也常常會被忽略的所以在資料不互通的一個情況下呢那教育警政社政都各自記錄那麼同樣一個少年通報呢缺乏那個唯一的識別跟整合的儀表板那麼沒有辦法形成一個完整的風險樣態第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5039.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5055.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
是協作的機制沒有強制力那麼少府會為什麼一直強調中央的一個重要性沒有法律明文的規定強制來召集權所以跨部會在做這個相關決策的時候常常會出現呢出席的局處人員不齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5056.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5072.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那決議也沒有辦法實地運作的情況那第三個部分是工具不太精準那我們也沒有導入結構化的風險評估工具跟分級的一個處遇的路徑那都是承辦人的經驗的一個判斷那措施的很重要的介入的這個時機點 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5073.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5078.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
根據2024本席這邊的調查 少婦會的不開案率高達了36%不開案最大的原因就是不符合所謂的曝險標準但是修法後的曝險三類的指標 反而會讓孩子更難進入少婦會體系來及早輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5096.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5124.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那麼警政署衛福部教育部你們一同可不可以一同說明現行跨系統的一個資料對接的一個改善然後也請司法院說明強化少婦會法定的一個權限暴險少年制度改進的一個修法的一個規劃好不好那如果有現在簡單的回應如果沒有事後將比較詳盡的書面資料提供給本席好不好那請各單位現在可不可以針對剛才本席所講的部分做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5126.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5144.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
現在委員的提示那委員講的真的是一針見血那邵委會是在內政部體制裡面那事實上執行邵委會的執行是在各縣市政府裡面簡單的來做表述就是說這個縣市要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5145.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5175.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
縣市長有沒有這樣的理念這個縣市長有這樣的理念所以當中央我們修了一個法然後改了一個概念結果事實上整個配套還有實際進行都有點空轉你不覺得嗎然後談到各部會的一個業務那大家說那主管部會如何如何麻煩你們在會後把相關的這個資料給本席做一個回應但是本席還是一直追我覺得中央沒有這樣一個平台地方的量能真的是不足最後我要向主管單位衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5176.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5186.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我來跟你們請命一下啦整個其實在你們這樣導入行政輔導先行的一個修法上路之後呢雖然我們希望能夠透過輔導來代替懲罰讓預防來代替矯正但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5191.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5211.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
這其實前線的社工還有少府員成了最大的受害者因為配套不到位那行政負擔又被增資源卻在原地踏步那中生代的職員就紛紛的離職那制度的根基正在崩壞所以當我們有這樣概念的時候實質的運作如果配套沒有跟上它就會像這幾年的空轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5212.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5237.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那地方更是辛苦所以本席要在這邊為第一線的這個相關的人員請命那衛福部衛福部應該在這個區塊做更深入的一個了解然後大家的離職還有資源的這個不足或者是實際運作跟跨部會較不動的狀況你們到底怎麼樣在配套上能夠真正來處理才能夠符合我們這樣一個修法的概念那這個部分可不可以簡單回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5241.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5265.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
因為目前邵府會主管是在內政部但剛剛委員提到的這個跨系統這相關的人員應該是在你們下面如果是那個警政這邊也有申請那個社安網的經費補助來充實地方邵府會的人力那各個系統之間如果有需要一些個案資料的串接這個部分如果邵府會的系統提出來我們社政這邊都可以來做相關的配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5266.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5282.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以這邊本席三點 建議很快第一個 設置跨部會的常設中樞機構這是本席講了好幾次了第二個部分是健全通報整合的平台跟風險工具第三 拜託改善第一線人員的待遇跟環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5283.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5304.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那麼可不可以針對本席今天所講的幾點本席比較關心實務上的一個運作我們法可以一直修但是所有東西如果沒有跟上概念的一個整體配套很多時候你就會空轉好幾年所以可不可以在一個月之內針對本席所談的這幾點給本席一個比較詳盡的一個回應好不好可以嗎 各單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5310.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5323.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
可以嗎 那我要一個一個問嗎那司法院可以嗎 法務部可以嗎衛福部 警政署你們不可以法務部跟你會手啊說沒有啦會手是說不行還是可以這個業務跟法務部比較沒有關係沒關係 另外因為你指涉的單位比較多看要哪幾個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5331.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5342.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那再跟我講一下 好不好好 謝謝我們林倩琦委員的詢答因為你的口才實在是太好了沒有站起來 你越講越精彩那接下來請各單位官員請回我們接下來請王逸川委員來詢答今天如果超過85分貝都強制驅離喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5362.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5385.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
德晓主席我是请这个司法院副秘书长还有法务部次长请王副秘书长还有徐政次还有我们那个厅长谢谢厅长好我先请问一下按照你们的分析现在少年事件大概是哪三类的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5386.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5392.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
哪三類的這個案件最容易被安置或者是保護管束有沒有這樣的統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5397.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5417.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
謝謝委員的吹詢這個第一類是就是說重視我應該說不要用犯罪來分類先做他的家庭的功能非常脆弱那他已經處罰那處罰有可能比較重有可能比較輕我是說譬如說詐騙或是台人如果案件分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5418.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5434.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那第一類最多的就是所謂的加入幫派或者加入這個不良組織不良組織因為他這個不隔離不行但是他還沒有到一直去殺人或有非常嚴重的事發你說的第一種這種的一般都幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5436.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5448.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
你說安置嗎安置是延長兩年總共四年所以我們可以延長到四年的安置安置是比較柔軟的教育輔導這是第一種第二種就是已經都一直在販毒集團裡面做這些運送小弟這個不隔離不行家庭無功能你讓他回去不行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5463.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5477.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這是那個販毒的罪很重那它有時候是屬於這個幫助那減減減減下來就可以減到三年以下就可以給它社區處理緩刑但是家庭無功能應該要安置這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5479.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5498.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
再來就是現在最多的這個就是所謂的剛剛講乍欺加上性剝削這一類的孩子那他也是因為家庭功能很薄弱所以也需要安置但是我們目前因為這樣的孩子一直在患那要用各種輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5499.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5529.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
的方案包括就业辅导都效果不彰的时候他又被犯罪集团把它吸收去了所以我们就会隔离到感化院去所以你刚刚提的这三类第一类就加入这种帮派组织对不对那第二种是贩毒那第三个是诈骗诈欺的跟性剥削就这三类那这三类被安置完之后不管回到家庭或回到哪里 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5529.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5554.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
他們再犯了以後又變成哪些類型這一類他因為安置完是會開銜接會議 社政要來我們一起來接那個就是說我們認為他已經準備回到社會或者是已經回到社會了嘛他年少無知搞不懂然後就被安置了然後之後他又回到社會以後他又再犯最多的是哪幾種 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5556.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5578.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
類似這一種就是回到家裡我們在銜接的這種安排不夠量能就是各方的效能不足以致他又出去再處罰那通常這一類的又再處罰的嚴重性很重很重通常都是逆送給檢察官就判處徒刑就進入民養中學 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5578.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5596.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
之後那個類型有沒有改變你剛講那前三大類後來有沒有改變比較不會改變的是販毒的都會繼續去跟毒品集團在一起這一類不太改變那性的部分因為經過很多設計各種可能性的輔導有比較改善它可能會變成一般的這個所謂的加入這個這個詐欺等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5604.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5627.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那詐欺的最容易再犯因為他不願意去工作沒有人督促然後原來我們幫他職業訓練的又被免職掉因為他沒有按時去工作那這個時候又變成開始又吸收到犯罪集團為什麼先問這三類因為今天的所有委員的提案裡頭啊有提到包括你們提的三年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5628.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5634.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
再犯或者是有委員提的5年內對這個3跟5你們的看法是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5636.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5659.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
謝謝委員催省那基本上我們在所有少年國際公約跟我們少事法是希望早日去少年的標籤化當我們輔導有效果他這個把它塗銷前岸有利於他回歸社會的工作啊生活等這個是一個非常重要的所以那個3你們沒有改 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5660.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5671.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們三年原則上這個可以討論我們沒有說一定這樣這是你們的案子裡頭沒有去改三這個沒有改然後有委員改成五對我跟委員報告原來那個輕微處罰我們不務審理家長管教的或轉介的這個以前是兩年我們現在給它拉長三年因為這種家庭這個退家的比較容易再換所以我們拉長三年OK |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5688.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5697.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那第二個是故意嘛我看大家都有這個故意的文字故意的文字裡面看起來應該也沒有什麼爭議就是要把這個故意加進去嘛就是因為你剛剛講說這個他第一次犯可能是有前三大類 對不對然後他如果再犯那再犯的 譬如說再犯那個販毒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5710.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5736.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
跟這一個性的或者是這個詐欺詐騙的這些他再去犯這個就算故意了故意 故意 故意對吧 算故意好 那我們要這樣排除是因為很多孩子會去偷開車偷騎機車那就產生很多事故這個是過失那這個如果都算進去尤其有些孩子要去工作他就奇責這個就去車禍這個過失不給他算入 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5738.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5750.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那偷東西算不算故意偷東西是故意可是他之前不是這個案子然後後來的這個犯的刑法是去偷東西然後是 這就算故意嗎算故意那第三個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5752.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5768.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
關於這一個幾年就是說這個本形就是本形就是有些委員是說那就是只要有期徒刑的或者是沒有被緩刑的那有些是5年以上的有些是這個幾年以上的這個你們有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5769.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5798.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
包括委員在目前這五年內整個台灣少年在處罰的部分大量被黑幫或者犯罪集團或者詐團吸收以至於我們在保護管束的過程少年在患經我們詳細的追蹤普查他都在這些組織裡面所以才會經過非常多的專家諮詢會議跟社會普查意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5799.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5812.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
希望希望在這個時候我們就採取說只要處在處罰前面的處罰執行完畢三年內再處罰給他保護處分後行之宣告就不凸消當然這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5815.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5843.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
有一個憂慮就是說造成他有一個前瞞標籤一直放在身上如果他將來有改善不容易但是至少這5年來發展到現在33%幾乎都是加入幫派或者是集團的有嚇阻作用跟阻止搶小孩的作用但是如果以各位的提案我們也都競表各位討論以後不是 我知道你們當然都尊重立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5844.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5863.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
就是說這樣是一個重罪才屠殺的條件一個宣誓的概念就是說這個委員是說譬如你剛剛提到就是只要有有期徒刑就是不能徒對不對那這一個委員的提案是這個要受五年的五年以上的對不對五年以上的就不能徒對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5865.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5882.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我是意思說有期徒刑跟5年以上這差很多就是說對在犯的那個少年我為什麼提這個是因為他接下來譬如說這一些幫派或者這一些詐騙集團他們也很懂法律他可能就教育年輕人 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5884.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5907.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
教育那些年輕人說你這個其實你犯這個是多少的你犯這個是幾年的所以你還是有機會被塗銷的那你以後就是塗銷以後你就一切清白了所以你來做這個沒關係你可能20歲25歲你就都沒事了就是說這樣的一個宣示的意義跟你剛剛提的是有期徒刑就算的話那這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5908.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5918.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
你們現在認為因為你們提出來沒有寫幾年你們就是有期徒刑而已那這個是不是要跟大家再解釋一下為什麼你們會做這樣的一個宣示 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5921.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5940.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
多年來 20年來我國沒有設任何條件都突銷以至於早年校園學生跟一般離校學生被吸收到幫派還沒那麼多但是近五年來高達百分之三十幾的百分比有這樣被收集分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5940.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5964.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那這樣的一個社會變遷跟黑幫跟學校搶小孩還有跟我們的家庭搶小孩所以我們才會主張說是不是就來把整個社會的認知跟學校學生所有各類生活的認知說我們不能利用小孩利用小孩他前來會被留住不利於他復歸社會這個是我們的想法但 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5967.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5994.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我也真的要誠實的跟委員報告而全公約說要求各會員國只有少年最嚴重的犯罪才要設條件不塗銷那這樣在很多國家只有定義說幾年徒刑以上或性侵或者是一次嚴重謀殺很多人的才不塗其他都塗這個是一個政策跟國際公約的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5996.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6014.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這就是我們召委提的這事情要好好討論因為你們今天提的算是很嚴的算是很嚴的那其他委員提的就沒有那麼嚴相對而言所以這事情社會還是要進行溝通好 謝謝謝謝王逸川委員的詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6022.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6049.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這個召委今天很冷靜坐在這個地方我是在分析還有看待很多事情我從今天的那個陰背的這個發現了一件事情今天司法院尤其是中廳長在答詢的時候也差不多八十九分貝就代表說沒有沒有沒有沒有特別的意思就你對這一件整個邵氏法的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6050.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6074.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
條文的一個修正案 你內心是澎湃 激昂的那反而立法院 除了第一位委員詢答以外其他的都是差不多六十幾 七十幾分貝司法院今天的立場 還有言論 都比法務部還要激進 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6075.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6104.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
要特別小心 廷長整個制度的一個變革是好事但是司法院針對這個案子裡面因為你涉及到這整個處遇的一個轉換那還要因為你也提到了整個國際的兒童公約談到我們整個立法的一個過程這個都好事啦回應社會的期待或者說要解決社會現狀碰到的問題確實該大家來及時廣益但是這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6105.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6112.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
從過去大家認為對兒童是保護那現在尤其是那個涉及到塗銷的部分塗銷有時候因為我剛聽到你的講話我是嚇一跳你說認為說如果說還有因為大家在搶小孩幫派在搶小孩好像主義機構也搶小孩學校也去搶小孩其實大家除了幫派搶小孩的部分是我們是要去殲滅它我們是要把小朋友兒童要把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6134.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6148.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
給拉回來了所以這個塗銷的目的倒不是說因為你會被搶走所以我就時間我就再弄長一點甚至於這個就不再給你塗銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6149.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6158.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
概念要轉變 可以但是我開宗明義講就是說這個要跟社會對話這個大家真的要講清楚好不好好 朝偉不應該話講這麼多 抱歉來 接下來請我們省發會委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6177.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6178.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
請王副秘書長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6192.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6206.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
非常好這個我們今天非常高興我們今天的召委安排了有關這個少年事件處理法部分調溫修正草案的一個今天的開始的詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6208.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6222.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
因為本席也有相對應的案子有提案因此本來就很關心這個案子的進度我想這個案子能夠進入這樣子的尋答階段未來盡快的進入審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6224.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6240.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我想這也是本席所期待的那這次整個修法重點剛才大概前面幾位大家都談了就是大概其實第一個就是有調整一些司法用語來配合這個刑事訴訟法跟法院處置法做了一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6242.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6266.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
第二個就是最主要是建立多元的處遇機制之間的轉換的機制這個大概是這次修法的一個重點另外一個剛才也在提的就是有關於前案得視為未曾受宣告這樣子來保障少年的復歸這個大概是第三個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6267.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6284.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
另外當然也有一些比較小的就是細緻它的一個細緻化的一些救濟程序 少年的救濟程序大概就這幾個重點這部分本席競表支持而且跟本席提案的意旨大概都是完全幾乎一致所以這部分我本席會支持但是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6287.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6305.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我今天要跟司法院這邊來溝通的就是在現行 在修法 修法是一回事但是在現行我們所進行的這些有關少年保護管束的這些相關的這個機制裡面我覺得有一些東西是值得跟司法院這邊來討論首先就是我們從113年2月開始試辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6312.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6339.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這是這個去年2月開始事辦然後去年7月推行到全國的這個有關少年保護管束風險管理事辦計畫這個計畫這樣子從去年的7月開始推行到全國到現在也一年多了這部分我覺得說是不是有一些部分要來跟這個有該討論的地方來跟這個司法院這邊來做溝通首先就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6342.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6367.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個我們齁在這個這個不管是少年事件處理法齁還是這個少年級家事法院組織法齁裡面都非常明確的規定有關這個少年調查官跟少年保護官齁他之間不同的職責啦齁那我們在這個這個少年保護管束的風險管理事辦計畫裡面我們也規劃我們的重點是規劃選任專任的少年保護官 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6368.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6380.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
也就是說把過去由關戶人一個人扮演的角色一個少年保護官一個少年調查官把這兩個角色要把它分清楚一個是負責廚藝的執行一個是負責調查所以本來他的角色本身的職權其實就有所 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6391.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6409.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
焊隔就是說一個人同一個人擔任這兩個角色這個本來他在角色上面的扮演職責上面就有所焊隔我們在這個事辦計畫裡面我們也特別要把它區分開來這個是一個另外就是這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6411.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6438.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
重要的是要做這個個案風險的分級分類評估管理這是這個計畫事辦計畫的一個重點那另外就是高風險個案的管理方式要這個由這個法院來成立這個叫做個案管理小組個案管理小組這樣的做法那另外就是高風險的這個個案的聯繫機制讓這個保護官能夠跟行政單位隨時保持聯繫那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6442.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6464.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個部分會造成的大概幾個比較重要的檢討包括我們這個我們審計部在這個中央政府總決算的審核報告裡面也就直接指出我們這個目前的這樣子有關這個保護管束管理的事項計畫裡面它有一個叫做高風險評估指標這個高風險評估指標這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6469.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6478.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
有一個高風險少年的評估表他們認為這個審計報告的結論認為說這個評估指標缺乏 因為風險評估指標它只納入若干常見的風險因子它缺乏經過信度跟效度的統計驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6494.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6521.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那也因為這樣子這個評估表缺乏這樣子的效度 新度統計 統計驗證所以實務上各個法院大概都參考其實他是參考其他的風險評估工具導致這個各個法院他其實在評估的個案風險上面他的評估標準也都不一那這個也會造成整體管理體制缺乏一致性間接造成了處遇 少年處遇的這些差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6522.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6543.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那也造成這個資源投入的差異 地域的差距這樣子的問題 請問我們有沒有做什麼樣的檢討因為這個113年的決算報告提出這樣的檢討內容 不曉得我們副秘長有掌握嗎有掌握 那我們有什麼樣的因應呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6545.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6571.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
委員這部分我請廳長來回覆好委員好 謝謝垂詢剛剛的問題我們確實已經在10個月以來第一組成這個我們食物的研修小組那都找我們所有食物專家來研究這個性效度那把這個量表做出來以後我們就召開了就是去已經做了嗎還是正在做做了 都做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6572.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6590.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
最近上個月才有我主持我們來進行這個所謂各個大學專家學者在國外就這樣量表的性效度研究的來做專家效度的校準那麼我們將本土化跟國際學者的意見融合 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6592.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6614.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
還是要做成一個統一的工具對 而且馬上要進行實測就是每一個小組都要用這個10成 我了解一下10成你說什麼時候要開始實測10成是在這個今年年底以前要實測完畢實測完畢以後再回來校準一次然後最後再給我們所有的高風險小組去進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6616.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6620.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
很好 所以今年年底會針對這個東西進行實測實測 進行實測那實測之後出來的結果我希望說能夠盡快的把這個成果讓本委員會了解好不好是的 謝謝這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6632.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6652.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我們有因應有進度這非常好這是我想了解的因為這個事實上這樣子的這個高風險少年的這個評估的這個表評估指標事實上確實是有點有些問題所以這個檢討希望說在年底之前完成實測之後我們能夠看到這個實測的這個成果好不好這是有關這個計畫的第一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6658.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6668.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
第二個問題就是我剛所提到的有關於少年我們這個計畫一個重點把少年保護官跟少年調查官他的職責要把他區分這也是我們計畫的一個重點規劃你們這個計畫內容寫說規劃以選任專責之少年保護官那 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6682.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6697.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
實務上我們現在的人力我們所了解的現在事實上還是都要由同一個人來擔任同一個個案的少年保護官跟少年調查官都還是有同一個人來擔任現在狀況是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6699.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6715.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
報告委員 我們已經實施這樣的分流計畫現在在新北地方法院我們就已經正式實施分流就是少年保護官專做...我知道他說用一個布幕隔開這邊是保護官 那邊是...沒有... |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6716.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6732.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我跟委員報告我們新北地院特別在三重地區的檢疫亭設置專案園區的少年保護中心少年保護執行中心那調查官原則是在那個他們的審判大樓來做這個調查力挺以上這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6737.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6754.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
據我了解目前實務上大部分少年調查官跟少年保護官都還是有同一人在兼任實務上大概都是同一個人兼任但他的職責角色其實是矛盾的他是一方面要執行保護管束那一方面又要中立調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6755.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6785.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所以他的角色就有矛盾了那這部分很重要的我看你們這個我這手上有這個我們少年調查保護官人力跟執行的業務情形我這邊有110年 111年 112年三個年度的這個調查保護官人數的統計跟他的案件看起來我們的少年保護官的這個人數沒有增加反而減少但是我們的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6786.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6793.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好 我們的這個每一個人平均執行案件位階案件卻增加了卻增加了你看看我這個上面這個表 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6796.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6817.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以現在我們事實上包括這個角色混淆我剛所講的調查官跟保護官的角色混淆以及人力的不足其實很主要是人力不足那這樣你們是不是有什麼樣的改善計畫有沒有提出評估要需要補強的人力那這個在什麼時候能夠提出這個補強的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6821.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6838.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
謝謝委員我報告一下因應這些保護管束的效能本院已經做了三大的一個方向改革第一個就是我們增加人力的部分委員的資料我這邊有比較新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6839.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6859.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們在113年增加16位少年調保官114就今年我們特別增加到54位所以總增加到70位這兩年113 114已經都到各地院去服務了 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6859.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6887.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
有70位同時呢我們將這個剛剛高風險高風險絕對不可以在遠古的調保官因為他很忙他又要調查又要保護所以我們要選出專來做這種高風險的保護官他叫保護官那他就停止去辦理調查案這是我們第二改革只是要分流嘛對 這個叫部分逐步分流這個是就篩選出來的高風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6888.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6906.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好 現在時間關係你是不是能夠把我們這樣子的相關的分工還有人力改善的計畫跟成果交一個書面報告給我們可以 那最後我跟委員補充一下我們委外人力的社工師 心理師 佐理研我們總共用這樣PIN82來密集 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6908.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6933.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好 這個整個在書面報告跟我報告因為我最後再一點點時間齁 這個要請問副秘書長這個我上一次會議也提過啦齁我們有關刑事案件的妥適良刑法齁這個之前有送進立法院來但是因為屆期不連續現在就沒有再送了那這個我看這個會議也就沒有了齁所以有關刑事案件妥適良刑法那這個那時候我有我在我在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6935.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6956.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
六月的時候有提說希望你們半年的時間能夠提出報告半年還沒到但是我現在在今天的主題我要講的是說就算我們現在刑事案件妥適量刑法這是司法國事會議的共識這部分就算沒有通過在沒有通過之前事實上有關少年的量刑跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6958.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6984.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
一般成年人的量刑他的整個考慮的重點機制是完全不同的在這個刑事案件的妥適量刑法還沒有這個會席也沒有看到你們在送來但在他還沒有立法之前我們有關少年的量刑我們用少年量刑指引的部分因為畢竟少年量刑他的參考他考量的不是責任能力而是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6985.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7011.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
為了保障這個少年的健全自我發展才是他的重點是不是能夠請我們司法院在兩個月內提出以少年健全自我成長核心之少年良心指引的具體規劃你們有具體規劃我希望你們能夠送來有關少年良心指引謝謝委員這個部分司法院已經有在進行那我們可以兩個月之內提出這個報告沒有問題好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7015.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7021.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好 謝謝審發會委員接下來請王紅薇委員詢答好 謝謝主席我請我們的法務部徐次長徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7036.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7056.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
委員長市長早今天我們當然是做我們的邵氏法的一個審查詢答但是最近讓國人非常憤慨的而且也覺得不可思議的就是我們的詐騙其實已經登上國際整個是國際的詐騙集團太子集團之囂張事實上在我們司法法治委員會我4月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7066.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7079.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
就引用了聯合國的報告來示警台灣是詐騙洗錢中心當時聯合國就直接點名台灣了那當時呢我是質詢我們的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7081.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7106.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
結果部長對這個報告渾然不知一問三 三不知所以我就覺得非常非常離譜那你以為這是最離譜的嗎沒有 還有更離譜的事情就是事後竟然我們的調查局長在立法院表示陳柏麗在立法院表示說相關報告內容立場偏頗對內容存疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7110.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7135.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
還質疑人家聯合國的報告那麼從4月開始到現在經過了半年以上然後果然台灣真的是國際詐騙的洗錢中心然後這個太子集團呢那麼在台灣洗錢他用什麼方式洗錢第一個他買豪宅對不對市長知道他怎麼洗錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7137.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7140.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我知道他是用工合公司的名義去購買這些不動產來不動產還有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7157.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7167.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我覺得這應該是法務部身為打詐的最主要的主管機關之一對這件事情不可能置身於世 世外 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7169.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7197.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個太子集團它用空殼公司而且是8家空殼公司在台灣去買11戶的和平大院這就是周杰倫住的地方另外買了29部的豪車用這樣的方式來做洗錢這跟我們過去比如打炸洗錢譬如說我們擔心它用虛擬貨幣不大一樣它直接是買豪宅豪車來做洗錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7198.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7213.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
而且他早在2017年就來台灣布局了那自己也來台灣就有10次之多所以我要講的4月份聯合國的有關於詐騙的報告說台灣成為詐騙洗錢中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7218.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7232.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
並不是空穴來風但是呢 包含我們法務部調查局都把這個報告不當回事啊不當回事 部長不知道當時我在詢問的時候已經這個報告出來一陣子了部長不曉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7233.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7255.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
然後調查局長竟然說對人家的報告存疑好 那現在市長我想請問一下那麼根據媒體今天的報導說我們一直到前天我們的高檢署才召開我們整個的跨單位跨部會的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7257.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7279.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
來特別針對太子集團的洗錢案在台灣的洗錢案來做怎麼樣的防度跟追究檢討次長你個人身為次長你會覺得我們是不是不是慢半拍我們是慢一整個大拍是不是太慢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7281.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7301.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我想不管時間點在哪裡我們發現有一些我們沒有發現的犯罪我們當然要檢討而且這個是跨部會有很多很多的地方是需要我們努力所以禮拜一所召集的這個會議的確是我們追緝防止詐騙的一個我們查緝的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7303.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7320.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
高檢署才會召集做這樣的一個緊急會議那在會議中也做成了五項的結論這些結論都有助於以後我們在國際的洗錢跟詐騙的金流的流竄是有一定的嚇阻作用我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7320.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7345.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們這個結論請問一下我們有沒有做檢討剛才我們講的幾個第一個 空殼公司用空殼公司在短短時間裡面買了這麼多戶的豪宅或者去買豪車這個打擊房市洗錢我們不是從今天才開始嘛 對不對我們不會是從今天才開始那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7346.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7373.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
有沒有去追究責任當然你們現在看起來有檢察官說說這個頭號戰犯就是經濟部頭號戰犯就是經濟部經濟部針對這些公司商業登記毫無管制然後登記這些根本是空殼公司然後也不知道他做什麼業務就是去買豪宅 去買豪車所以市長檢察官的質疑有沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7374.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7395.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
包委員我們還是期待就是說能夠強化公司登記的審查的密度而且不是只有登記而已他應該跟稅務機關要連結要加強稅務機關的監理還有金融機構的驗證跟異常交易的通報然後強化法人實質受益人的透明度所以你這樣一講下來不是只有經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7399.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7421.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
經濟部 財政部 國稅局 金管會你這樣一講下來對不對那一天召集的會議這些主管機關的人代表都有在場他們都承認自己有輸肉會議是共識不是承認我想委員得知道那我們就是要把這些漏洞能夠把它抓出來我們在監理 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7422.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7451.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好 那次長我請問一下為了這樣子要洗脫我們這樣子的是一個詐騙亡國洗錢亡國的這樣子的汙名我們會不會做全面性的對 讓經濟部做全面性的這種空殼公司比如說他投資不管他投資未上市股票 菜券豪車 豪宅等等做一些全面性的清查需不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7452.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7462.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個不是我們法務部可以做這樣的一個宣示我當然知道 你們會不會建議我們一定會做這樣的建議會做這樣的建議 對所以應該做一個清查對於台灣這些空殼公司當然不是所有空殼公司大概那個什麼他們要跑斷腿就是你要設定一個他購買的一定金額以上的資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7479.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7502.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
比如说你设定他这个空额公司但是呢他却买了上亿元以上的这个不管是动产或者不动产然后就做全面性的清查应该是要设定一定的条件然后呢要勾基我刚才已经特别有提到就是勾基税务单位金融机构对不过这种这种他可能也不贷款啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7504.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7519.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
他不但他有交易不管他用什麼方式他就算是虛擬貨幣他也是跟金融機構所以你們會就這樣的建議那多少金額以上呢我這個一定要尊重主管機關的所以一定要做一次全面的大清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7520.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7525.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我只是建議我們不能說在這裡我了解但是現在已經出現這樣的問題了所以因為我們講說我們有個打詐國家隊但是打詐國家隊到底誰負責呢沒有人知道到時候每次出事以前那個打詐檢察官就很生氣那時候頭號戰犯就是金管會那時候就是主要是想講金管會因為金管會還沒有還有什麼速發部等等的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7549.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7569.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我是觉得啦那你们也要提出建议啊因为你们才是主管机关啊也因为大院的支持所以我们打诈释法就很顺利的通过那这个就已经让我们跨部会现在的合作是很密切的经济部说经济部头号失职不过看起来次长说也不止经济部啦那另外内政部有没有失职 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7571.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7593.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
因為內政部這個層次他可以來好幾次他用不同的護照來那麼多次然後我們也渾然不覺我們整個團隊都要檢討但是談不上有法務部來說誰失職但是有努力的空間沒有 看起來檢調很生氣覺得自己打仗打到最後就一堆一堆的漏洞出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7594.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7599.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
是不是 我們要努力我們也會在偵查的實務上發現的問題會提供給行政機關作為他們一個監管的一個參考好 這邊我就是具體建議你們必須要做一個大清查因為當聯合國指名台灣的時候我們要有一些回應然後你知道像南韓 南韓媒體現在或者是他們的網友都開始在那邊笑台灣笑台灣說是詐騙之島 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7623.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7644.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
然後我們的行政院還發文我們行政院還有新聞稿說這個聲表遺憾因為這個的發文就說台灣一年以語音加簡訊詐騙的金額用人均計算是南韓的3倍日本的20倍這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7646.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7663.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
南韓媒體的報導然後呢 我們行政院說沒有 這個是斷章取義結果呢 有去讓人家更正嗎也沒有讓人家去更正啊當然我知道這不是你的職責但是這很丟臉啦我們已經丟臉丟到國際上去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7667.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7692.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
韓國的報導朝鮮日報是韓國的大報吧朝鮮日報說我們詐騙損失的金額是南韓的3倍 日本的20倍行政院只會大內宣自己發一個新聞稿說沒有 這個數據不正確我也沒有看到他要求朝鮮日報更正朝鮮日報的報導照樣繼續在網站上人家也沒有把它下架也沒有撤下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7693.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7715.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
行政院這種的回應根本是自嗨而已你也不敢去叫人家朝鮮日報你把這個文章下架 不對我們台灣沒有那麼離譜所以我覺得最近這一連串的事件讓國人對於我們打詐信心全失 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7716.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7731.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以我也很肯定剛才市長願意就是就很務實的部分該檢討就要去檢討然後我們該去防堵就去防堵好不好因為我覺得我們不要我們一定要洗脫台灣這種詐騙之島詐騙天堂的這種惡名好不好是好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏威委員的詢答 無告遵習接下來請羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7752.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7779.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
主席有請徐次長還有王副秘書長請徐次長還有王副秘委員好委員早兩位好我在這邊要表達對民進黨崇高的敬意真的是非常了不起短短九年就把台灣從科技島變成詐騙島我道歉不是詐騙島是詐騙帝國 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7782.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7796.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
為什麼連太子都來了太子都來了詐騙太子把詐騙皇宮設在哪裡請問市長你知道設在哪裡嗎富麗堂皇詐騙皇宮設在台灣的門面啊你知道吧哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7798.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7825.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
報告委員 我聽不懂他的皇宮是說他是有租的辦公室你聽不懂啊 院長都聽不懂聽得懂 你聽不懂設在101大樓啦辦公室啦辦公室啦原來是什麼 義式店啦不是皇宮是義式店啦皇宮是那個多少多少間豪宅多少間豪宅11啊對啊 11座皇宮真開心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7826.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7837.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
你知道這個詐騙太子在台灣能夠橫行無阻的詐騙皇帝是誰背後靠山是誰有個太子總有個皇帝當他靠山是誰你知道嗎你知道是誰嗎我告訴你就是無能待舵的行政團隊養出這樣一個詐騙太子吃香喝辣 橫行無阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7851.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7878.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
你不要講不只是這一個 來我要問齁這個太子集團2016年6月就來台北然後在101成立了天緒國際公司表面上是開發博弈系統實際上是開始進行相關的洗錢操作嘛對不對是啊對啊慶祝民進黨政黨輪替 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7881.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7907.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
2016年6月真是眼光獨到眼光獨到知道今天詐騙皇帝可以當靠山了換人執政了知道有一個怠惰無能的政府上來之後趕快來台灣打造一個詐騙天堂那我再問啊你知道這太子集團啊在柬埔寨有十個園區詐騙園區 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7910.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7924.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
很多人被拐賣過去用殺豬盤的方式詐騙騙到最後現在美國司法部查扣他名下的比特幣資產高達150億美元將近4500億以上的台幣這麼大的一個犯罪集團詐騙組織來台發展九年啦美方的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7939.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7948.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
甚至來台不下十次我想請問 市長我們的政府的法務單位減掉對此都一無所惜 毫無警覺嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7959.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7982.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為他當時進來是以商務的目的進來的那是移民署依法合法准許的路徑所以是移民署的錯不是移民署的錯就是說這個部分的話是合法的市長你講這話的意義到底在哪裡point在哪裡哪一個詐騙集團進來的時候他就跟我講我是詐騙集團會嗎不會吧有哪一個詐騙集團進來跟你講他是詐騙集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7985.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7999.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
九年你們到最後 劉世芳部長的名言是配合哪一個國家調查的配合美國調查的如果美國今天沒有調查我們就讓他繼續壯大了11個詐騙皇宮不夠 搞個20個養心殿設在101 是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8008.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8036.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
包委員 如果犯罪行為是發生在境外的話的確我們在得到請示是比較困難犯罪行為發生在境外洗錢債發生在哪裡啊 請問啊發生在台灣啦這麼大的資金的流轉請問 我不講保護部而已啊檢調 金管會還有包括我們所有的講打造 講國家對 講多少年啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8037.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8062.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
講多少年了你光這件事情你叫國人怎麼對我們政府打仗有信心呢來我想請問我們到底什麼時候開始掌握太子集團在台灣的非法活動今年10月美方採取司法行動我們到底什麼時候掌握的這個案子是在今年10月15號北檢分案真好 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8063.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8085.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
今年10月15號北檢分案剛好什麼慶祝美國來調查就完完全全印證了劉四方講的嘛前面要嘛無能要嘛怠惰要嘛裝死網友還說合理懷疑九年可以搞得在台灣搞得這麼盛盛大大是不是中天其實有人謀不章 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8087.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8111.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這次為什麼說我們會趕快召開會議到底哪一個環節是我們疏漏的我告訴你其實也不用召開會議為什麼美國沒有來調查連那會議都不用召開我在想請教你知道現在我們看到今天台灣的詐騙嚴重到什麼程度太子集團這種荒腔走板的事情九年無知無覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8113.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8134.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
到美國司法部動了以後10月15號才開始分案來來來 我想問一下很好啊 辦了對不對來幾乎所有人都交保吧壓了4位剩下那些交保裡面有的保金3萬 15萬都不到100萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8138.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8154.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
然後這些交保裡面有一個特助對不對關鍵人士網路上在講在法庭感覺非常輕鬆感覺非常輕鬆好像回到溫暖的家的感覺一樣15萬交保我真的不太清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8161.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8188.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
四千多億四千五百億四千六百億的全球詐騙金額光台灣今天涉案的一些相關金額查扣的一些資產就四十五億了結果十五萬CEO左右手就可以交保那我不知道你們到底辦案的決心在哪裡啊那我舉個例子你知道黃嶼景如國民黨的主委黃嶼景如多少錢交保嗎知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8189.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8216.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那個案件跟案件涉案的罪名以及他的身份當然不一樣一個偽造文書交保一千萬另外一個什麼詐騙詐到人家全球多少人家破人亡四五萬交保當然不一樣後詐騙後代詐騙我還沒講柯文哲七七萬交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8218.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8239.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我告訴次長 我也告訴副秘書長全國人民都在看 都在看台灣詐騙嚴不嚴重 你告訴我 嚴不嚴重嚴不嚴重 次長 本心自問比起民進黨上台之前嚴不嚴重最近是有比較嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8240.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8258.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
不是最近 市長你真是客氣我是講說我在當檢察官的時候跟現在比起來當然比較清楚但是現在目前案件是減少的你詐騙金額足足一直在飆升你案件你跟我講減少我到現在為止你們還在那邊凹那個詐騙儀表板你要怎麼去定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8264.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8292.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我要你們去定義光一個太子集團全球就搞了4500億150億美金光一個太子集團詐騙太子在台灣全球在搞這是光宗耀祖啊台灣真是光芒萬丈啊你到現在詐騙國家隊到底花了多少資源去支持詐騙國家隊你們到底交出什麼成績單然後我再問喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8293.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8315.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
你知道詐騙多嚴重到什麼程度啊我永遠信心念念我在這個質詢台上質詢很多次我想請問一下次長你知道有史以來台灣被綁架的人數被關押的人數被拘禁的人數因為詐騙集團最多的一次是發生在哪一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8318.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8346.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
不知道 我告訴你啦很有名啦2022年的台版柬埔寨啦但是61個受害者被關在三坪大的房間是幾個人被虐待死亡三人三個啊 你的數字還錯的三個是抓到的時候三個今年八月多發現了一個四個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8348.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8377.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
今年八月不小心多發現了一個所以答案是不是四個我都不知道你恐怕也不知道因為可能還有不知道的受害者被埋在哪裡都不知道慘絕人寰令人髮指請問發生在誰執政的時候我想這個跟執政是誰執政應該沒有關係當然有關係詐騙越來越嚴重難道跟今天執政者的無能沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8379.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8407.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
再來我要跟你講這我還是回到一件事情到這種程度關61個人不罰所得4億元虐殺4個人結果沒有判死刑耶也是民進黨另外一個偉大的傑作啊民進黨實施廢死判決之後真的很難判死刑啊大法官會議實施廢死判決之後連這種案件都判不了死刑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8409.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8438.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
61個人被關4個人被虐殺不法所得4億元沒事不會判死刑不用擔心我講的是一個系統性的問題為什麼今天詐騙集團在台灣如此猖狂因為進到法院15萬交保我可以笑得很開心啊回到家的感覺真溫暖啊因為可以足足9年美國司法部不動我們台灣的民進黨就不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8440.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8464.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我直接跟你講啊我真的非常嚴重的質疑除了怠惰無能以外有沒有其他的因素啊有沒有其他的因素啊今天還只講一個太子集團詐騙太子多少嚴重的詐騙案件一個一個發生我們到底今天辦了誰抓了誰到底打擊了什麼詐騙我拜託次長你們回去好好想一想 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8468.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8480.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
謝謝羅志強委員的詢答這個是一個好問題剛好施亞委員剛好走進來了我記得我從當台北市委員的時候就開始罵我們當初的詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8481.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8506.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
當初台北市是最大20年過去了那其實可以看得出來是這20年來詐騙在國內是一直飆升一直在飆升但是倒不是說都這個詐騙就好像是他們都被抓到以後都沒事 倒也不是我們立法院我們各位委員也都修法了我們也都確實是加重了那這個詐騙可不可惡話已透了 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8508.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8516.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
就是我們要保持一點文明的形象而已啊不然對這一些人這真的是該殺無色啊真的是該殺無色那這你說該怎麼辦呢這該怎麼辦呢這個整個金額一直這樣子在做飆升那我們給 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8523.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8549.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
行政部門的武器就是這樣子而已那給了他們的武器 你說他們不作為嗎倒也未必 倒也未必所以還是要及時廣義啦這個確實是整個現象沒有去做一個壓制去做一個遏止的話這個不分黨派大家對這件事情其實都是非常憤慨的我相信行政部門看到這樣的一個狀況的話你們一定會覺得說自己不及格啦好不好 我們接下來就請翁小玲委員做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8557.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8585.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好 非常謝謝這個剛剛莊昭偉的一席話這個是非常這個睿智而且很中肯的一句話一段話那麼確實我們現在詐騙的問題這個不僅僅只是行政部門然後立法部門我們這邊也都善盡職責然後提高相關的這個刑度但是可能另外一個部分還有司法所以我接下來我就要請司法院的王富密 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8587.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8613.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
請王復命那麼剛剛不同的委員可能從不同的角度來看為什麼我們現在詐騙的問題這麼猖獗這麼多年來沒有改善那本席今天呢主要就是從司法法院的角度來看這個詐騙的問題那麼我們知道其實詐騙案件層出不窮不管是從假投資假檢警然後甚至到最近的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8614.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8631.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
化國的這個詐騙集團都已經嚴重侵蝕民眾的財產安全和政府的公信力行政部門雖然成立了打詐國家隊但是看起來功效不彰那麼我想這個部分的話其實還有一個問題就是說大家普遍看到我們現在的法院判決 輕判 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8633.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8660.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
侵犯其實也可能會成為整體打詐機制的最大破口那麼根據審計部在今年所公佈的113年中央政府總預算的決算審核報告裡面就指出政府為了打擊組織及科技詐騙增修了刑法第339條之4的加重詐欺罪可以科處一年到七年的有期徒刑可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8661.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8688.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
看看這6年來從108年到113年度各級法院對於加重詐欺罪科處3年以上的徒刑根本不到1%如果說有處罰這個科處5年以上的徒刑也不過才佔這個0.01%這個比例是非常非常低那麼如果說我們再看 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8689.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8704.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
整個的平均來講大概都是維持大概差不多就是一年到六年之間大概平均大概是1.6年對不起1年半左右如果說要刻儲平均刑度大概就是1年半左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8705.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8734.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那麼就這樣的一個狀況我想很多的民眾是不滿的為什麼我們的詐騙案件法院判得這麼輕就算是立法者把刑度提高但是法官還是這個輕輕的縱判所以像這樣子的一個情況我想請教王副秘書長就是說你們法院的法官是怎麼看待詐騙案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8736.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8737.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
為什麼就整體的統計數據來講會如此輕判 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8742 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8764.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
跟委員報告其實那個法院就那個詐欺這部分的那個量刑這幾年就是有呈現那個加重就是有判更重的那個趨勢那我們從統計數字來看的話3394這個加重詐欺也就大部分是在這個詐欺集團的就是判處那個兩年以上的這個比例已經從108年的1.68%到113年的7.08%了 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8770.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8797.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那修法之後的那個詐欺詐欺危害防治條例43條跟44條呢現在就是我們統計到現在就是有那個判決的141罪呢超過兩年的有達到21%就是目前就是我們醫師宣達的結果現在是有成那個就是加重那個取向是這樣我們有看到這個我們就本期有去查你們自己有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8798.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8817.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這個詐欺案件的良心因子的一個查詢系統我們去查詢了114年的這個查詢系統這是你們自己的數字喔你們看你們在這個14年大概就是被判的有期徒刑一年的大概171件然後平均刑度在2387件裡面平均刑度也才一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8822.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8849.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
一年5.7個月就等於說只有一年半平均刑度一年半真正判到最高六年以上的也只有兩件所以呢基本上就是你們在有不管我們現在把刑度提高可是你們事實上在整個的司法院的法官的這個作業系統裡面而且在你們自己也有頒布了這個刑法339條之四家中詐欺案件良心參考事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8850.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8869.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那麼看起來好像這個事項這個算是一個行政命令對於你們自己的法官是沒有任何拘束力的嗎沒有辦法就去約束現在法官的良心還是說法官基本上不會參考你們現在所頒布的這個參考事項的準則來去做良心 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8871.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8878.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
委員講得沒有錯 委員有注意到司法院有訂了一個加重詐欺的量刑參考事項我們也廣為宣達 發給法官請他們宣達在法官學院也開了各種的研習 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8890.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8908.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那不管是在一般刑法的或者說那個詐欺這個部分或者說量刑的就是的課程裡面也都有去就是廣為去宣達跟那個法官們溝通這一個部分他就是要量刑考慮事項是還有另外一個部分因為現在我們法律規定是說可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8909.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8922.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
對於這個家中詐欺案件是可以有期徒刑病科得病科罰金你們支持未來有期徒刑可以因病科罰金就是不只是判刑還要判罰金這樣的話會不會更能夠有效的遏止詐欺犯你會支持這樣子的一個修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8928.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8952.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這個實體法部分因為主責機關是法務部所以我們尊重他們的權責我想這個部分我本期之後也會來再研議看看是不是要再進行相關的修法總之就是說其實這個詐騙的這個詐欺的案子基本上良心過低這個基本上是從統計數據上面來看這就是個不真的事實那麼如何能夠強化法官對於這樣子的詐欺案件裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8958.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8985.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
他可能他的违法性还对被害人所造成的伤害让他们更能够体会那么也许在良心的部分的话就会有一个更能够符合我们社会期待的一个判刑那么所以在现在的这个状况就是你们现在的整个刑事法律的法定刑度过低或者是法官良心过低的问题那么本席认为说司法院其实应该要再去通盘 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8987.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9011.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
檢討是不是有出現法官良心過低的問題當然不僅是在詐欺案件在一些案件裡面可能也都呈現有良心過低的問題因為你們先前司法院其實也頒布了很多各種不同的良心參考表刑事案件的良心以及定執行的參考要點可是到底有沒有實際的效果還是都是只是參考而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9012.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9018.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就是你們實際上是怎麼樣是向法官們去做宣達然後告訴他們或是你們有召開過很多類似的座談會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9020.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9043.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這一部分都有的但是要跟委員報告就是說因為最後量刑的時候他依刑法57條他最後那個設計他最後還是要法官做裁量所以說這一些因子他事實上都是整個綜合的就是他沒有辦法去定一個就是一個相對應的什麼情況他一定要多少因為每個個案他的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9045.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9064.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
太不同了所以也沒有辦法就是去定一個實質的一個就是所謂那個有拘束的是我想因為王鳳鳴您本身也是刑庭法官出身那麼我想就是整個的刑事的判決基本上還是要符合國民的法律情感那在這個部分的話怎麼樣能夠加強跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9065.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9088.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
性情的法官然後做更多的溝通社會的溝通讓他們能夠理解國民的期待還有跟立法這邊的當時的一些修法的想法還有另外一個部分就是司法院其實在幾年前曾經有提出一份草案叫做刑事案件妥適良刑法的草案後來這個案子為什麼司法院沒有再繼續推動下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9090.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9119.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
是你們認為說你們對於這個妥適良行是沒有辦法做出來嗎報告委員那刑事妥適良行法因為上次之前送的時候因為借期不連續的關係所以目前我們就還在那個司法院這邊在做內部評估當中因為這涉及到我們良行的模式到底是要採收所謂的蘇格蘭或是美國這種祭典式的方式那拘束力的強弱這些那這部分我們還在內部在討論這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9120.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9140.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
是因為本心也認為說這樣子的法案還是值得拿出來再來討論畢竟如果說我們能夠制定一個比較客觀合理而且這個大家都能接受的一個良心標準的話那麼未來也可以相當程度的拘束一些太自由派的法官那不可否認在我們法律人裡面的確是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9142.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9167.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個法官可能他就是更重視的是人身的自由啊等等然後對於很多的案子他會侵犯那但是這個這樣子的一個狀況其實很打擊減緊掉的士氣而且也違背國民的法律情感那所以本席是建議了就是你們行事案件妥適良刑法草案可以再拿出來好不好就是積極的可以再提出來然後你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9169.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9189.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個相關的草案 然後可以作為你們下個會期的司法院的立法計畫好 謝謝委員的提示好 OK 那以上 謝謝好 謝謝翁曉琳委員 接下來請吳思堯委員詢答吳思堯委員詢答結束今天還沒休息嗎?沒休息嗎?我給你們換了之後 待會要拿我主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9197.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9207.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們就不用問了 翁委員你不可以走我先到隔壁請吳斯亞委員做詢答沒有啦 做做做好 謝謝辛苦的熊讚召委請王富密 也請我們的次長徐次請王富密還有徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9227.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9242.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
委員好進入我今天邵氏法修法的主題之前我認為台灣的司法部門的獨立我們的司法部門也應當表態中國的跨境鎮壓已經嚴重打擊了我國的司法獨立下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9243.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9264.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以說當中華民國立法院的沈博洋委員面對中國這種長臂管轄他傷害的是台灣的法治傷害的更是台灣的國會尊嚴所以民進黨希望透過朝野不分黨派一起來聲明反制我們會持續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9265.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9292.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
非常遺憾民進黨團要求國會共同聲明來力挺我們的國會議員的這件事情呢到目前為止在野黨兩黨選擇噤聲面對中國他們似乎就選擇了姑息昨天賴清德總統也清楚的對外來宣示要捍衛保護每一個國人的權利跟安全畢竟今天沈伯陽明天任何人 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9293.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9319.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
立法院的是民進黨團持續來努力我們不會放棄在國會表達嚴正立場的這一份朝野應當有一個共同聲明民進黨會持續努力但是呢在我們所有的行政部門外交部陸委會警政署乃至於國安會針對這件事情中國的長臂管轄大打法律戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9320.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9348.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
各相關部門都發生了跟司法院沒有關係嗎跟法務部沒有關係嗎台灣的司法權限被對岸如此的踐踏欺凌要長臂管轄危及我國的國人我認為我們的司法機關不能夠沒有表態 沒有說明所以我今天就這個機會短短的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9350.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9361.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
請兩位我們重要的司法機關今天備詢的代表簡要來表達我們的立場好嗎下一頁是誰先徐次 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9364.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9387.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
各位報告中國片面宣稱對我國的法律定位跟單方頒布法規對我國人發布通緝立案調查等作為對我國民眾不伸任何拘束力所以我們嚴正表達國人不用怕中國管不到台灣他的治權不及於台灣捍衛我們的司法獨立好 來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9388.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9413.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
台灣是一個獨立治權的地方我們司法權也是獨立的所以不容別人對我們的任何國人還有立法委員甚至他是以捏造犯罪的方式他可能先發布了這種棄拿立案接著可能是缺席懲判接著也會是全球的通緝 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9414.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9435.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
台灣我們是民主法治國家我們never對任何一國的國會議員基於沒有犯罪的事實捏造他的罪名而且是這種政治思想罪名然後對任何他國的國人施以這種作為吧我們不會never never never吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9436.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9458.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以說我今天我一直蠻遺憾的我一直在等法務部跟司法院應當嚴正的主動對外來捍衛我國的司法獨立但我藉由短短的時間中國是全球的首惡在世界各國他們目前160起跨境鎮壓的事件中國是之惡之首22%是由中國發動的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9462.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9480.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以對於台灣的長臂管轄不管是對於我們的軍方人員新戰大隊人員片面的來懸賞片面的來立案調查完全都不及於台灣我們不用怕下一頁吳斯堯本人也被他列為是台獨打手 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9481.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9491.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那當然沈博洋是讓這一次全台灣大家群情激憤我們共同要捍衛司法獨立的主要的一個對象好 最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9493.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9512.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我希望未来在类似的事件中国罗织罪名复合式的压迫法律战绝对是非常重要的一环只要干预到我们的司法独立我国的法治权限我再一次提醒也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9513.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9536.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
司法院也好法務部也好都應當主動積極的表明立場這是我們不可退讓的主權我們不可退讓的司法獨立我再次提醒好嗎因為今天用了我五分鐘的時間好下一頁今天少事法的修法修法之後and land我認為要系統性對症下藥下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9538.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9565.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我当然肯定我们落实国际的儿童人权公约在55条55-2 56条确保符合少年最佳的利益我们采取多样化的处置我支持好下一页同样的对于加盐少年前案记录的图销机制我目前也倾向可以支持你们的提案但是我要问这个定三年的这个期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9566.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9573.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
會不會違反了國際的權力公約的疑慮可不可能你們周延考量過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9575.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9600.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
誰可以回答我請廳長來回覆好 是委員好 是有關於三年這樣的定案就是是在當時形成這個政策前做了非常多的實務的蒐集以及再換的一些分析最後就是學者的建議還有參佐國際的一些立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9601.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9627.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我完全理解基於實務的研析然後也有參採國際的做法這是重點不要為了這個修法我們固然要求取社會安全跟少年需求保護的平衡但是也不要走回頭路我們也不應當為了修法不小心去觸犯了國際的權利公約的底線OK我提醒你們我相信你們也做好研議下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9629.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9653.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
但是法治這幾年來更健全了政策更精進了可是少年的事件是不減反增這是我前陣子去聆聽一個演講是更生少年關懷協會他們做的一個數字當然每一個數字在我看來都驚心動魄簡言之從少年的嫌疑犯還有少年犯罪的人口率甚至再犯率 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9654.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9683.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
都是讓人非常驚駭的數字因為它是不減反增的所以我們需要系統性的去診斷跟下手下業而最新的少年的犯罪類型淪為詐騙集團的最佳利用工具六成是車手就當然在這一類的犯罪類型裡頭我們要擴大保護少年不容易被騙這個我們要做下業但是我今天要提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9684.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9699.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
系統性我有follow到行政院事實上提出了這一個三級預防全面性的預防兒童及青少年的犯罪方案四年76億這個方案大家都involved對不對大家一起催生 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9700.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9722.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那這個問題大哉問了我們希望逐年減少少年處罰的人數年減1%如果以剛剛我提供的數字其實我們的成長率是高的能做到嗎四年76億在三級預防的機制來 徐次長你是主管部會之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9729.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9747.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我想我們從宣導面防制面跟查記面都要努力真的要努力目標是不容易但是大家要努力努力做到所以我們自己知道年減1%的少年處罰人數是不容易的是不容易但是我們要努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9748.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9767.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
好 努力做到我會每一年如果我在司法法治委員會我每年會追蹤這個數字這是系統性我非常支持一定要系統性的去看待這個問題但是系統性有了四年76億但是我今天替你們點出一些個別執行的BIOS下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9767.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9782.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
首先 邵府會絕對是一個非常重要的我們要行政輔導先行 司法處遇在後但是當我發現2023年到2024年各地方政府邵府會的修建輔導數是4022件 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9785.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9812.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
但是呢明明要輔導先行可是呢2024年我統計出來的司法處遇進到少年法庭去受理的案件卻是5.76倍而這個當中會不會有漏接的數字也就是說我相信很多是連輔導都沒有touch到這群人直接就是少年法庭去審理了這樣一個狀況怎麼強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9817.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9840.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
來那個向委員報告之所以會呈現這樣的數字是因為進到那個少年那個法院的他除了就是說是這個曝險的之外他很多是那個觸犯刑事法律所以他不經過先行就是直接進到那我問一下那如果有一些非這類的案件他應當先輔導再來送司法處遇而這個漏接率高嗎我應該這樣問 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9844.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9862.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這部分目前的設計是不會的 普選先行輔導有兩類 第一類就是又觸法就會送到少年法院那少年法院的法官已經訂好 法官可以去審查完要求少輔會不可以停止繼續普選輔導 就兩邊那第二類就是少輔會認為所有輔導都用盡了 沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9869.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9890.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那就送到我们这边来我们就以普选的分案来进行是这两类好那这个跟我的认知有一点落差没关系我会持续的来研究好谢谢您的回答下一页第二个问题安置辅导的人数锐减我这里整理出近十年安置辅导人数统计从2015年154人一年到2024年一年只有15人 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9894.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9919.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
監察院在2019年也已經調查要求司法院跟衛福部要檢討對於這種無法媒合適當的安置機構對於偏遠地區的專業資源不足對於特殊狀況的少年特別難以去尋找願意來安置的機構這些都是困難跟問題一年只安置15人這個數字我覺得很難接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9921.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9945.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
谢谢委员提出的问题因为委员所讲的呈现的这个现象呢也是我们少年法院的痛因为安置辅导它是一个对某些孩子来讲适当的一个处分非常重要的我们那个因为法院毕竟是那个司法权那安置这是属于那个设置机构是属于行政端所以卫福部跟司法院都要一起看怎么来做吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9945.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9966.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
因為現在像現在目前全國目前可以接受那個司法安置只有11家25個床位它的量能就這麼少那如果說我們讓兩院當然是行政院的衛福部跟司法院共同來研議去建置一個專屬的少年的安置 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9968.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9990.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
機構可不可行我們就用一個新的大的計畫來做有沒有可能否則你會去依賴現在有的安置機構他能夠offer的空間人力物力的限制不是嗎這個部分其實司法院持續都有跟衛福部這個地方在開會有沒有可能這已經講很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9992.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9994.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
是 報告委員 我們持續剛剛那個4年76億沒有這方面的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9997.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10025.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
沒有 我們持續一直在跟主管安置機構的社家署做相關的研議那目前有兩個作為比較積極一個就是達成協議說各縣市的社會局設有一個窗口在媒合司法少年那所以各單位各少年法庭需要的會去跟他們的窗口連結但媒合成功的是有一定但是也有沒成功的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10026.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10049.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
沒成功的很多但是非常需要委員說的事權統一但現在還繼續在雙方協商中請你們去回去研議三個月內來針對這個國家來成立一個跨院的合作專屬的安置醫療機構可行性評估一下我必須持續追蹤這件事情好嗎否則我們就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10051.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10063.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
求助無門也都過度依賴現有的安置機構好我知道主持要站起來了我後面有幾個問題來下一個包括矯正學校的運作管理的疏失包括下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10065.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10093.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
包括我們的霸凌防制2025上路但是只用於四間小角校18間的少年關護所是outside我提出來請你們檢討最後一個我們的少年調查保護官的人力不足缺的人力是上百人好幾百位喔這後續有機會我會再就教於各位但是我希望能夠全面性的來提點出這些的問題之後才能夠系統性的有效的來解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10093.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10097.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
不好意思 再用時間我們下一次再討論謝謝幾位 謝謝好 謝謝吳思堯委員主席在這邊宣告今天這個整個邵氏法整個草案的一個詢答我相信這個是很嚴肅又很專業來挑戰的應該也不會太多所以我們就不休息了好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10119.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10129.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
接下來請林月琴委員來做巡打請王逸川委員來做一下主席要上洗手間的就自行去吧來記得回來喔你要叫什麼謝謝主席我們請那個副秘書長還有跟社交署的黃組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10148.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10163.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
委員好兩位好那今天事實上是審查邵氏法那我有一些對案的版本除了今天有送進來的那個83條之一以外另外還有一些部分條文我們也會陸續進來趕上那個審查所以先來 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10166.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10184.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
跟兩位討論一下我比較關心的首先我想先問的是目前少式法和少年偏差行為預防跟輔導辦法當中針對少年持有未滿5公克的一個三四級的毒品請問一下複密歸誰管我請廳長來回覆是 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10189.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10214.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
謝謝委員這部分目前就是以邵府會跟我們開會的時候我們有給他一個法律意見就是暴嫌的第三款第三目就是持有第三世紀毒品那可以用預備預備犯罪不法然後來處理我們已經發文給他們那我們過去十五也是這樣做但這一次看到委員這樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10216.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10232.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我们其实是非常赞同因为我听到许多团体都来跟我反映持有三四级毒品的少年事实上是没有单位要管的因为教育单位虽然有村会专案的辅导可是没有遇到真的遇到他私用的话他通常是不会处理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10232.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10260.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那就轉給小五會可是又會被推薦所以等於是無學級的少年一樣因為無學級的少年本來就是沒有對應措施了所以我認為持有已經是近視於私用了所以不能因為曝險行為跟偏差行為定義不明就讓實務現場各自退縮所以我知道司法委員現在針對這個問題呢先前也有召開會議並函文給警政署確認這樣子的一個行為真的是不是曝險行為所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10262.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10282.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
無法依我們18條之二項通知少婦會處理所以也要請警方查獲的時候要評估少年的持有的目的是不是製造販售或是轉讓的預備犯罪行為而且並且還要綜合評估少年的需保護性所以就想問說為什麼這件事情不能直接一點處理呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10283.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10308.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
直接就講這些持有行為納入到曝險定義當中更何況你如果要第一線的那個員警來做這樣的目前他們的訓練跟量能根本就是沒有辦法去做評估所以我認為這部分應該要修法定義更明確所以我有提出我的版本所在所以衛福部這邊大概今天審查的邵司法我也想 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10309.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10337.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
進一步的去能不能參照我們兒童權益公約的精神跟意志去增訂符合少年最佳利益的條文將處於多元性真正納入到我們的法條當中可是安置機構的我們的安置輔導事務上面對到的困境是我覺得司法院跟衛福部這邊到底有沒有掌握就誠如剛剛吳士堯委員在問的那樣子的一個課題不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10339.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10342.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
複密和我們的衛福部社家署這邊謝謝委員的推詢其實我們的安置機構對於收容這樣子的少年其實應該是說心有餘而力不足那個力不足的部分為什麼心有力不足我就不太懂為什麼你110家的安置機構110家 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10363.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10386.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
目前只有兩家願意去承接司法安置少年15間事實上是有補助可是大家只有40%的量能去做特殊需求跟司法安置可是真正完全能夠去承接的大家就只有兩家而已因為司法安置事實上本來照顧的困難度就比較高可是你人員也沒有去搭配專業人員去到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10387.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10407.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
甚至經費補助又不足甚至你如果要安置機構去募款的話通常他怎麼會有辦法來貼補說那我今天司法安置的時候很大量的經費是要他們去募資這樣的資源所以我認為這樣子的一個服務萎縮的窘境難怪司法院他們大概就很難今天我要安置輔導為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10409.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10426.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
最後就是我覺得不利當初事實上司法轉向就是希望安置輔導不是去所謂的感化教育所以我們覺得這個是不是我認為衛福部要不要有一個說法或有一個對應的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10427.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10442.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
是 謝謝委員我們現在都有在其實我們本來原定今天跟一些收容司法少年的機構開會因為颱風天所以我們會做一個延期那我們會收集到他們面臨第一線的一些更細節的意見之後然後我們也會再來跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10443.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10469.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
相關的部會因為這個也涉及到教育部的就學這一塊勞動部的就業這一塊動作快一點因為監察院108年就提出調查報告了要求司法院跟衛福部都要盡速來研商所以我覺得複密在這邊跟我覺得衛福部要盡快去做處理否則我們看到數量就是一直銳減最後你就還是管化教育就都不會去做安置輔導所以最後大家就期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10470.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10482.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
真的去檢討偏差跟暴險少年的一些定義還有就是安置輔導這一塊真的要去處理不是安置機構所以他們很需要的是專業人員的導入還有經費的挹注 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10486.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10508.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
為什麼因為他們基本上還是可以去做只是因為資源不到位然後呢專業人力又沒有辦法協助因為通常我們也不認為應該要重新在完全的是專責的一個安置機構可能反而是又是集中那又是另外一個矯智學校的一個翻版可能要考慮的是轉向輔導的這樣的一個方式以上 謝謝好 謝謝月秦委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10514.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10517.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員是的 主席 謝謝主席有請我們司法院王副秘還有我們徐政次 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10540.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10555.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我想首先必須要先來肯定我們這次司法院提出的一個版本針對整個少年保護處分提供轉換不同處意的一個模式為什麼說肯定這當然就是落實整個聯合國兒童權益公約改善事務上的一個困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10556.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10577.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
但是我們也必須要去講就是說其實在公約40條裡面我們去看到了就是你為了確保兒童的一個福祉或者並合乎這個自身狀況跟違法情勢做一個多樣性的一個處置就像過去在實務上你說除了訓誡保護管束安置機構趕快教育是種不同樣中 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10579.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10599.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
過去就是說這個四個廚藝當中如果少年不適合的話最多你就是停止執行那沒有辦法去做一個轉換那現在新修法這個是一個好事但是呢我今天特別去聽了我們這個廳長廳長你今天講了很多很勇於任事就提出一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10600.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10612.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
不同的一個看法可是我是覺得還是要特別小心你像譬如說你去看到我們過去你說我特別提出來就是說這個塗銷對於整個兒童的或少年的一個保護我們講說塗銷最主要的目的是要幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10620.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10649.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
就是說來自於外界對他那種窺視你避免將少年貼上這個標籤使他可以順利的更生復歸這個社會當然我知道司法院尤其是廳長你這邊提出來或者說學者專家大家去討論這樣的一個版本裡面利用少年來犯罪這可惡但是真正可惡的我反而倒不覺得是少年或者兒童是這些大人 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10651.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10680.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們在每一個法律裡面你看我們這個整個刑法的規定是你只要是利用未成年的那都是加重二分之一這個次長應該很清楚這個覆滅這個審判實務那麼驚艷老道的可是就怪今天這麼多委員在提到說整個那個少年犯罪的不斷的一個提升還有詐騙大家在打詐沒有成效你看那個車手的六成這是非常可怕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10680.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10694.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那你說我為什麼本席在主席台上我就認為說我們是為了保持一點點的文明的形象否則針對這一些詐騙人我都真的主張要殺無色可是你又沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10695.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10715.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
很多在野黨委員認為說這個要判處死刑啊什麼樣沒有那麼簡單啊那個是最後的一個手段把人的生命給剝奪掉我反而擔心的是什麼你說好來採用了大家集體來反制這種重刑的社會大人分開的全部判處死刑萬一沒效呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10716.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10737.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那不就宣告整個國家的一個法制就瓦解了嗎所以到底問題出在什麼地方要用重點亂世用重點我倒不認為是一個亂世但是這個詐騙猖狂這確實是這樣子利用兒童 利用少年又是一個事實有什麼比較好的補嗎這個司法院的好像不適合講這個來 社長 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10750.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10769.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我想我們目前對於小孩子成人利用小孩子這個部分以前我們比較缺乏跟少年法院這邊的聯繫上一次我們政委還有我們都跟司法院已經做了很好的溝通現在就是在地檢署跟地方法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10769.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10784.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
第二法院我們有一個聯繫的會議也就是說像現在對於陳少共犯的部分他們已經提供很多很多的協助那跟少年法庭這邊來合作這個是有效可以打擊這些成年人 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10785.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10806.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我剛剛非常贊成委員剛才所講的就是說該處罰的是利用這些小孩子的後面的成年人現在給我們這麼大的注意的話我們在司法警察在追溯這些源頭是有一定的注意我們認為在追緝面是這樣宣導面當然我們也會努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10806.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10830.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
其實這個是一個跨部會的問題委員你很了解我們現實的社會裡面這個在教育面 學校面是大家要一起努力的否則這個小孩子縱使是感化教育他回到社會以後如果家庭跟學校沒有辦法接觸他他又會回到那個集團這就是不斷地在衍生出來的問題剛好洪孟凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10831.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10855.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這是很專業的委員剛好走進來他上次談到這個詐騙犯他是認為要用新加坡那個邊形我是反對他的看法我反對他的部分因為沒有時間講得不清楚我認為都太便宜了你打幾邊你真的以為這個詐騙他這個本身他就你真的他這個就會這個整個犯罪就會降下來沒有那麼簡單的事啊就這一些詐騙的人是可惡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10859.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10888.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
你說要打他幾邊你浪費多大的一個社會的成本怎麼是打他幾邊而已怎麼是打他幾邊而已反而我倒覺得說這個應該是要用怎麼樣的嚇阻的一個方式或者如何去加重其刑那當然最主要就是說我們整個司法警察部門這個部分如何去快速去把這些瓦解掉那才是一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10889.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10917.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那我想接下來我必須要再請教司法院的就是說我們整個塗銷我們涉及到這個修法裡面會有塗銷你去看看我們最高法院過去的實務你說98年台非322那個刑事判決裡面去講到說你受刑的執行完畢後赦免一日起算三年內未在手刑之先運告該前科紀錄不復存在那就是說這個少年在此三年內是否再犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10918.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10938.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
並非所問那我看今天看了廳長的這些講法以後當然是回應社會啦回應社會啦但是你去看這個歷程你說塗銷這個歷程跟少年事件的一個少事法的一個典範轉移的一個重要條文你從沒有塗銷到一直鼓勵到達到充分保護的一個意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10940.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10959.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
你看這個大家 我現在王滬密或者廳長應該很清楚嘛林濟東 韓中 我這都算我們的師公當年你說在1955年在成立少年法專案小組的時候採依教不依法的立法的一個原則也就是說過去的少事法是充滿的少年的保護主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10960.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10983.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那到了1976年起戒嚴時期又被質疑說是鼓勵犯罪重視社會治安的維護高於青少年的健全的一個教育所以你在1976年又增添一個塗銷制度五年未再宣告執行完畢或者赦免五年以內沒有再受行之宣告視為未曾受該宣告以致來做一個鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10984.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10999.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
後來1997年就一個分水嶺就全面又回歸少年保護制度把這個塗銷這個部分我相信又做了一個改變修法前跟修法後這個塗銷的一個差異我想請 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11000.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11026.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
複密跟這個徐政次你去做一個參考這一些我倒覺得說你現在不分室友輕重都在增加一個三年未在犯罪的室友才可以突消是不是符合這個國際公約裡面健全少年自我成長跟避免烙印或污名化的一個初衷我們在司法法治委員會裡面我們常常會去談到國際公約對不對因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11030.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11052.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
兒童權利施行法裡面他就講得很清楚我是今天早上去聽你這樣的一個詢打的時候我是嚇一跳因為如果以最高法院歷來的一個見解的話都認為這個施行法是在法律適用的時候是一個特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11054.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11077.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我不曉得那個廳長你的看法是怎麼樣因為早上都是你在回答是不是可以就教你一下好不好我的意思就是說兒童權利公約我們內國化以後那你最高法院你一向都是肯認是優先適用是的 我同意委員的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11078.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11102.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
你同意但是你自己可以說話不公平我是認為要謹慎你是個在回應社會不錯社會上很多狀況你就必須要解決老百姓對這個詐騙是非常痛恨的司法院勇於認識這是好事但是我認為你對因為這一步叫做少年事件處理法你這個是方向在轉彎要小心 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11103.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11127.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個在對話這個過程裡面應該是是不是再應該是再怎麼講 再謹慎一點學者專家是不是比較多元的意見再納進來一下否則的話我是比較我是比較擔心對於整個兒童的一個保護的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11129.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11156.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以會變成為了回應整個社會的一個事件的應對應對這樣的一個結果呢會不會到最後被認為是一個草率因為過去的少年都是在講保護然後呢我們是鞏固他將來發展的一個可能性那變成說你這次的修法裡面草案裡面我看到了變成說你把硬報跟預防都放進來了都放進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11158.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11180.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那所以呢跟過去如果說你們有什麼意見或確實認為整個少年事件都不應該完全是採這個教化寬容社會安全網的多元儲育來做一個改善的話那這個部分反而我覺得說也應該來講清楚了來講清楚了而且又牽扯到整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11181.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11203.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這個整個聯合國的一個公約我們已經把它內國化了那是不是司法院的立場這個確實不應該只按這個在巡達裡面簡單的幾句話講完以後大家認為就是你代表整個司法院的立場我覺得這個就真的要慎重所以我今天早上一直講說你今天的態度比法務部還 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11206.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11222.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
還寂靜就已經在這個地方不曉得那個廳長謝謝委員的指教我認為少年復歸社會去處標籤確實是剛剛說的兒權公約的一個明定很清楚那原來的少數還是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11223.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11236.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那麼我們事完提出來這個版本附條件的這個部分寬延的問題我們接受各界來尋求剛剛委員說的那個內容我同意 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝莊隊熊委員接下來我們請洪孟楷委員主席謝謝 慢慢請法務部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11255.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11255.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
來 次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11259.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11288.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
委員好好 次長好 次長因為剛剛本席也被我們專委員來點名到我想一個月前我在總質詢的時候就已經有提過就是說因為現在看到新加坡已經正式三讀通過詐騙納入編刑的一個刑責裡面那其中其實剛剛專委員他在講就是說他的意思啦我聽起來是說他不要說太便宜了就說應該是要讓犯罪者付出應有的代價 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11289.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11302.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
對不對更大的代價所以我先請教一下新加坡就你們現在了解他是不是不是只有打完邊形就算了他應該有的刑責原本有要關幾年要罰多少錢是不是一樣延續 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11306.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11331.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
是所以不存在莊委員剛剛講的問題就是說新加坡他是把詐騙原本已經要罰多少要關多久但是因為很嚴重很嚴峻所以我新加坡增加了就是說除了原本的刑責以外還要再加上鞭刑那這樣子反而是更能夠讓犯罪者付出他應該有的代價是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11334.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11351.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
編刑不是我們刑法上我現在在問新加坡因為委員剛才提到說加張劇的話更能夠嚇阻我們現在在因為我國還沒有等一下這是我第二個問題但我現在先問的是因為我要化解我們現在召委專委員的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11352.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11371.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
就是說不是要便宜行事啊亂適用重點而且是要嚇阻那些犯罪者讓他知道說痛讓他知道說不能犯罪那一樣嘛過去我們現在做了很多不管打詐是法 打詐無法我們該加重刑責的加重了該增加的罰金加重了但是詐騙一樣猖獗啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11372.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11386.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
今年上半年度480億的詐騙金額上個禮拜五還有5億多一天飆升的詐騙金額那為什麼詐騙還那麼猖獗所以新加坡他們用另外一個方式就除了原有的刑責以外再加上編刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11388.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11406.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
等於是原有形則不變再加上邊形更大的嚇阻所以這是化解我們剛剛莊委員還有一些部分人士的疑慮不是說二則一有邊形就不用關或是有關就不用邊形 不是的新加坡是把它累加上去是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11413.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11437.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這個我們在你剛剛你的幕僚都有講是這樣子有什麼好不是 本席有一說一因為我手上沒有資料所以我不敢回答那這樣子就第二個問題了本席在總質詢的時候不過剛剛您的幕僚已經跟你講說是這樣子了本席查的資料也是這樣子好不好因為這畢竟是上個禮拜他們正式三讀通過的我想這是公開的資訊大家都可以查但是第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11438.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11454.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
本席也沒有說馬上現在就要推動邊行是因為我國目前沒有這樣子的一個行則好 那可是我們在講是說詐騙那麼的猖獗我們要來防治就要有更積極的作為因為任何人都沒有辦法接受詐騙在台灣猖獗嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11455.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11479.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
也因此新加坡已經變成是一個很好的實驗的對照組就是他們已經三讀通過了那本席也說應該要趕快來了解如果說未來三個月未來半年內新加坡的詐騙數真的有因為邊形納入之後而有下降不管是犯罪的人數 犯罪金額有下降的話那是不是就可以變成是我國立法的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11480.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11509.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
就是人家真的實施之後真的有嚇阻詐騙的效果那我們能不能來研議這樣子的一個部分那我想請教一個月前我在總執行提出行政院長也說可以請法務部來做可行性評估跟研究那到目前為止我們做了哪些研究跟評估我想我們這個政法兩面都有啦不要先撇開我的問題是現在做哪些研究跟評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11510.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11527.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
不是正反兩面都有我們現在還 我們還在研議這個有沒有違反禁錮公約的第一條的規定這個法律上我們必須要先研究或者我們今天所以你們做了哪些研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11530.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11558.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
內部研議找專家學者研議這個都是在規劃中有規劃中因為本席那時候總質詢是講說半年的時間現在已經過了六分之一了一個多月過去了那如果說你這樣的進度很顯然到半年有沒有辦法拿出一個而且甚至那一天本席有講是說要請法務部也要去了解我們的民情到底大家能不能接受跟支持因為實在話講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11559.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11575.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
立法委員是人民一票一票選出來我們代表民意嘛所以我們來做立法嘛那一樣民眾的思考跟民眾的想法也是我們很重要的立法參考不管是立法院或者是行政部門嘛也因此我們現在要了解的是說國人對於詐騙沒有辦法接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11576.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11603.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那人家已經有更積極的態度來去對付詐騙這個方法有沒有效我們還不知道所以需要去了解以及最後國人能不能接受我們要用更積極的態度來去對付詐騙還是國人認為是說沒關係詐騙放著反正我們就是要人權至上我覺得這也有可能但是我現在要求的是說當我們要更進一步的在司法法治委員會如果說未來有修法的話行政部門應該要給我們這些相關資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11606.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11624.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這個議題我們會放在行修小組我們本部的行修小組會議裡面請專家學者提供意見好 所以也會廣大意見剛才所指教的這個部分我們也去了解一下我們國內民意的方向好 所以了解民意的方向會有什麼樣的方法做民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11625.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11644.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
最快嘛法務部可以來做一個全民民調我們會後會去研議用什麼方式本席還是強調就是說我想我們這一間辦公室的人沒有人支持詐騙大家對詐騙深惡痛絕本席要有一個態度就是我們已經看到別的國家有用更積極的方式來對付詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11645.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11664.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那這個方法有沒有效大家也不知道我相信甚至連新加坡他們政府官方可能有做過相關的資料但是他們也不確定百分之百有效所以才需要時間嘛所以我才講是說如果可以用一個對照組三個月後我們來看一下新加坡他們的刑事案件詐騙案件有沒有真的往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11665.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11682.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
可以當過我國的一個很重要的立法參考我覺得這也是一個好事那另外一個部分我們也了解國內的民意所以今天市長已經正式的回答本席會納入這個小組並且來做討論而且也會來廣稱民意那本席會再持續追蹤這個議題好不好是好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11686.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11691.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
好 謝謝洪孟愷委員精闢的質詢其實你誤解我的意思啦你這個其實這個社會關注你不要小看這個議題喔這個社會搞不好民調會很高喔但是我會覺得你這個太保守了應該加一個遊街示眾或者說你來提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11705.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11708.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以說嘛 都叫人家願意沒有人敢提案的啦這個變成說這個確實有一點比較不文明但是回應整個民粹法務部你既然已經答應人家了你就開始好好去做接下來請羅廷偉委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11724.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11747.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
來 我先處理一下會議時間我們上午會議的時間就進行到所有登記委員發言的委員詢問結束為止好 謝謝主席有請副秘書長請王副秘有請法務部政務次長請徐政次委員好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11748.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11771.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我先補充一下剛剛鄭副市長對於這個邊形還有這個到底要不要坐牢兩者是折衣還是這樣子的我延續上一個話題我想補充一下就我自己也有了解那你有沒有所知道當這一個受刑人可能是有生理上的疾病沒辦法承受瞬間的重大這樣子的邊形的時候新加坡是怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11776.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11785.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
包圍 這個我們手上沒有增加坐牢的時間所以你可以去研究這樣子的情況之下呢基本上它還會再往上加 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11786.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11815.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以我相信剛剛就像剛剛洪孟愷委員說的他絕對不是二則一他一定是兩者並行然後並且在不可承受這瞬間的邊形的過程當中他有一個替代方案所以這個部分我還是希望就像延續剛剛說的研究一下到底我們現在的民情到底現在能不能立法的可能都能夠讓我們能夠追蹤這個進度當然剛剛你有說民調也是作為一個研議之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11816.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11830.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
是不是有機會一個月內先回覆我們可不可以做民調可不可以做就好我這裡不能承諾任何事情我說我們會探求民意但是方式上我們回去那你探求的方法你可不可以跟我講一下我們回去一定要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11831.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11853.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
就是你們自己內部討論要探求民意剛才那個昭偉有特別講到說單方面的去問民調恐怕跟死刑那個會得到同樣的結論那有時候不是這樣子看一件事一個政策不能完全都看這個如果你們沒辦法真正了解民意我們會讓你們看到什麼叫民意不是這麼簡單一個政策不是這麼簡單我想有一個問題跟副秘書長討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11858.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11884.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
交保金額過低我們最近看到一個新聞讓我們非常的感嘆太子集團交保金額過低我想其他的委員一定都有在討論近期引發整個社會的關注根據檢方的資料太子集團整個涉嫌跨國的詐騙跟洗錢涉案的金額高達45億元但多數被告交保金額介於3萬到100萬交保金額跟犯罪所得不符比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11885.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11890.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我先請問一下 副秘書長你有沒有看一個新的劇 叫回魂記 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11892.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11918.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
包委員沒有我基本不看劇的好 不看劇的沒關係 有機會看一下因為很重要我不會提這麼無聊的問題就代表他有背後的一個目的最近年輕人都在看這一部戲那看的人都心有戚戚焉連我這個做立法委員的喵到我都覺得怎麼會這樣三個女孩子被騙到國外的過程最後衍生出他們必須變成詐騙的幫手 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11919.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11939.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
整個死刑的方法都從回魂記這一部劇裡面呈現出來最後也有許多的孩子就非常慘烈的在這部戲裡面呈現出他的慘狀那整個過程當中我們還看到就是祖賢最後在國外是被判處死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11940.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11966.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
但是在台灣回想在台灣他的交保金額我們看到其中有一個集團旗下有一位女特助15萬元交保當場是笑著離開引發整個社會的討論關注這一個圖片不是我做的是網路上在流傳的點閱率極高但是我想要問大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11968.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11976.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這不對於整個國人的觀感整個對整個司法的不信任甚至是打擊執法人員的一個士氣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11977.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12006.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我想這也是卓榮泰院長他自己也都感覺到他也有發表這樣的言論所以整個太子集團涉案的金額高達45億元但多數的交保金額看到不符比例重大的經濟犯罪交保金額有顯著的落差的時候我想問富密你可不可以回應社會是否考慮調整重大詐欺以及洗錢案件的交保標準避免類似的金額落差可以回應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12007.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12020.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
包委員您所垂詢的案件交保15萬這個是在偵查中檢察官直接交保他並沒有申請法院所以說並不是法院所做的裁定但是他最後是不是就15萬離開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12022.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12048.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那是檢察官做的決定所以是檢察官的問題所以要法部部來處理我不能說是不是問題我覺得這個是整個司法院你要去做統籌的去做整個社會民情的調查觀感不佳今天你不是說這不是法院判的這是檢察官這邊的我當然知道可是現在我就問你難道現在卓榮泰院長11日他說坦言這不僅造成國人觀感不佳 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12049.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12066.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
也造成執法人員打擊士氣那請問你是不是要用一樣的話去告訴卓榮泰這不是法院判的這是檢察官在偵查的時候15萬交保所以今天不是這樣回應我們整個司法院去做整體的檢討這部分您覺得呢有關於那個交保的那個金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12073.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12101.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
这个部分司法院就是如果说是到法院这一段那个来啦就是说那个法院我们也有一些那个裁量那个基准就是给那个法官们那个参考那卓荣他是属于我是不想吐你啦其他的案件就有高于这样子的一个交保金额啦不要跟我讲现在是检察官啦再来啦 枫园一家五口也是15万交保啦都刚好15万 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12102.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12128.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
奇怪了社會就有這樣子的疑慮今天主席已經站起來了我還是希望把這一個聲音帶到整個司法院我希望你們好好的檢討其他的案件就可以交保金額這麼高我不想提特定的案例等下你們又說這是個案可是現在看到這個問題就是民眾觀感不佳整個司法不信任希望你們好好檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12129.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12145.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好謝謝羅委員的詢答那接下來請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在來林淑雯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12160.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12165.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好 謝謝主席是不是請我們副秘書長請王副秘委員好副秘書長在我國的法律施行細則哪一部法律的施行細則條文最多你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12178.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12189.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這個我倒沒有研究沒有研究是我是看到國民法官法的施行細則很多條是你知道多少條嗎幾百條 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12193.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12209.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
對 比他的母法還要多三倍341條那這麼多條裡面所以你印象所及有哪一部法律的施行細則是超過300條的 比他多的確實沒有 印象中沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12211.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12235.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
人家都說這個法律多牛如毛那一個國民法官法的施行細則有341條那想必當初你們司法院認為是有需要才會定出這麼耗煩的施行細則不過這個施行細則我要請問你大家都知道施行細則的法律位階是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12237.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12258.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
次於法律次於法律 OK那請問妳在這個法律的位階裡面施行細則裡面可以不可以自己寫著說我要排除某一個法律的適用可不可以說我不受某個法律的管制施行細則裡面可以嗎這個是就是基本法理就是基本法理那我剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12268.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12284.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
細則當然不能違背法律啊但細則裡面定出來的文字寫我排除某條法律的適用因為詳細的那個情形我不知道OK沒關係我現在很具體的告訴你國民法官法施行細則341條的條文當中啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12288.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12317.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
其中有一條施行細則第二八九之一條第一項規定本法第八十八條就母法國民法官法第八十八條所稱得僅記載證據名稱及對重要爭點判斷的理由指下列四項並不受刑事訴訟法第三百一十條第一款第二款規定的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12318.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12338.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
你們自己去補充你們母法你知道施行細則這樣寫施行細則說我不受刑事訴訟法第310條第一款第二款規定的限制你覺得這樣子妥當嗎報委員因為在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12340.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12357.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我這樣說好了先從結論上來看就是這個施行細則他跟他的那個母法國民法官法他是沒有違背的那國民法官他的制度當時還設計的時候呢他確實有跟我們傳統的這個刑事程序他做了很多這個我當然知道但我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12358.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12369.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
他的母法國民法官法第88條條文只有這樣子喔有罪的判決書有關認定犯罪事實的理由得緊記載證據名稱及對重要爭點判斷的理由那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12374.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12386.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
母法第88條有說我要排除刑事訴訟法第310條第一款第二款嗎因為310條如果我沒記錯應該是有判決你認為310條跟母法第88條會有判決嗎他確實做了一個不太一樣的設計對不一樣的設計但是即便如此你如果認為應該要排除刑事訴訟法第這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12404.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12427.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
310條的適用你也應該要修法而且應該要定在國民法官法的法條裡面怎麼可能沒有定好法律沒有制定好你們就便宜行事然後你們再一個法規的未接的施行細則你們說我要排除這個的適用我知道你們本意是什麼但是你們便宜行事你們在破壞法律的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12429.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12456.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以呢你要在施行細則當中說不受刑事訴訟法的限制那你應該要在國民法官法裡面修法不是嗎那個謝謝委員指教因為我想這是不同的那個解讀因為就是說國民法官他因為就是不要這樣講副秘書長這不是解讀我在講法律上嚴肅的問題你的施行細則要來自於母法的授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12457.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12485.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
你要排除其他法律的適用要法律保留原則而你的母法裡面沒有要直接寫排除雖然你們整部法律的適用的設計其實是要排除或者是要部分不一樣但你應該在母法裡面設計啊報告委員因為88條它的那個規定呢它事實上就已經是和刑事訴訟法310條做了一個不同的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12485.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12504.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那你當初在母法你就要最後一項要講我要排除刑事訴訟法第310條第一款第二款的適用你要在母法裡面怎麼會是在一個施行細則裡面你們顯然看到了有問題所以才在施行細則裡面要加這一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12506.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12522.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
因為這個國民法官法88條它就是特別規定有關於國民法官他有賭罪判決要怎麼寫那寫的這個內容已經和刑訴310條不一樣了如果沒有特別的規定當然是刑事訴訟法裡面的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12524.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12549.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
但你國民法官法要特別的規定你應該在母法裡面規定哪有母法沒有規定然後你在施行棄責說我要排除刑事訴訟法所以我說這是便宜刑事啊我不是反對喔是你們便宜刑事你覺得這樣的法律架構可以嗎你剛剛一開頭我就問你說他的法律位階是什麼他可以在一個這麼比法律位階還要低的地方說我要排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12549.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12568.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
刑事诉讼法的适用吗因为刚刚那个施行细则它的依据是从国民法官法国民法官法的母法88条没有直接说我排除刑事诉讼法的适用但是从它的文艺的规定里面就已经排除了刑诉310条了它就已经排除因为不一样啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12569.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12595.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
如果不一樣 那你的施行棄責改掉如果舊母法就足夠有法源的話你把你的施行棄責排除什麼法律的字眼拿掉確實施行棄責不寫那一句話結論上還是一樣的那寫了架構不一樣喔現在我的意思是說你們明年1月1號開始要針對最輕本刑10年以上所有有期徒刑都要適用國民法官法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12595.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12617.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
你現在要好好去檢討你所有的施行細則300多條哪些你是排除刑事訴訟法的規定的你的母法裡面沒有約束好的沒有法律保留原則的而你通通都直接就在便宜刑事在施行細則裡面定好的你難道不用整部法律再拿出來看一下嗎譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12619.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12638.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
譬如說國民法官法第六條第一項規定應該行國民法官審判的案件有幾種例外可以由法院裁定不適用國民法官法其中第四款被告就背訴的事實為有罪的陳述被告都認罪了然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12639.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12665.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
然後經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認不行國民參與審判為適當所以這一條講得很清楚如果被告認罪了那後半段是說依案件情節認不行國民法官審判為適當你可不可以舉幾個例子告訴我們後半段指涉的法律的意旨是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12667.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12684.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
而認為說該案情節這個不適合行國運參與審判那這個標準除了第六條第一項的前幾款以外還有什麼這個我是不是請法官來回覆好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12687.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12703.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
報告委員那這部分是國民法官法的第六條第一項的規定我知道那告以通常審判程序之指那就是說告知他說通常審判程序的那個進行內容跟他的權利事項我知道對那案件情節我是叫你舉個例子可以告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12704.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12717.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好 舉個例子告訴我們第一個被告都認罪了第二個你也告知他這個程序了通常審判的程序了那依案件情節認為不行參與國民審判國民法官審判為 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12720.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12743.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
為適當 你舉個例子給我通常就涉及到良心的部分如果良心的部分有涉及到例如說需要國民法官意見參與的部分比較多要反映國民法官感情的時候這時候可能就不適宜轉換所以這個爭點就是剩下良心的部分那在良心上面認為有可能會傷及國民情感的你舉個例子給我聽就涉及到例如說特別侵害到所謂的個人人身法益的那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12745.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12771.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
如果有涉及到這個部分的話具體的例子高度社會矚目不見得是社會矚目可能是身體法醫的侵害這個部分最高本刑十年以上當然是這樣子現在講第六條整條都在講可以不要適用國民法官法的審理所以叫你們訂然後叫你已經訂出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12772.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12790.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我現在在根據一個司法院判決查詢系統裡面講有一個檢察官起訴傷害致死的案件而這個裁定的內容被告承認犯罪全部都承認那被告也跟被害人的家屬達成和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12791.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12817.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
被告跟被害人的家屬也都明確表示因為曠日廢時 程序冗長我全部都認罪 我也全部都和解了被害的家屬也認為說我們也不想要國民法官也不要在這種狀況裡面你覺得說這樣的條件符不符合第六條第一項第四款 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12818.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12842.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
報告委員 個案的部分我們不方便評論不過就整體上而言就是說這部分當然各法院他有自己的獨立審判認為適不適合國民法官參與這個良心部分他會有各自的判斷那當然這部分將來就是由上訴程序來進行審查你們一定標準回答這樣子好 來你們法院法官堅持一定要走國民法官法的審理程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12843.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12860.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這個你剛剛講說個別法官自刑的裁量我現在不是要跟你講個案我是要很清楚的問你第一個被告承認犯罪然後從被告跟被害人家屬達成和解被告跟被害人家屬都明確講我不要用國民法官法因為對我們來講折騰而且跑法院的程序冗長 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12865.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12890.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那第四個法律規定明明就規定也可以這樣子為什麼你們的法官堅持要用國民法官法為什麼還要陪你們完成國民法官審判的這個績效我再問你副秘書長司法審判的目的是什麼司法審判的目的不管職業法官或是國民法官司法審判的最終極的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12893.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12914.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
就是把實體正義透過司法程序實現出來第一個一定是發現真實第二個罰當其罪 對不對就是要這樣子我們現在就是說在這種狀況裡面法官為什麼會堅持一定說你要給我陪我走完國民參審的審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12916.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12934.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
所以在這裡你們訂了第六條可以例外可是為什麼法官現在認為說你們要陪我走完這個審判國民參審的審判為什麼那個委員我想兩個部分有沒有一種是制度面的問題有 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12936.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12962.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
制度面什麼問題第一個當然是個案 個案情形因為不知道那個是個案法官的考慮然後第二個就是說這個是回應國民法官法它的制度的本質就是說剛委員講得很好就是罰當其罪但是什麼是一個適當的刑罰其實我們法院那個判決以前出去的時候大部分對於有罪無罪還不會引起這麼大爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12964.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12990.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個都是非常重大的社會高度矚目的那一些犯罪但你們的刑事犯罪非常多十年以上的也很多不是每個都要叫國民法官除非我們整個司法體制要改要全改陪審團制否則我們不是在這裡陪著你們跑這麼冗長的程序我現在要講的是說還有一個有沒有可能是一種可能你們法院在事務分配的制度上有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12993.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12995.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
你知道你们事务分配上的制度有什么问题吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12998.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13027.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
請委員指教你不知道可能裝算的吧分案的時候如果你們讓你的案件去使用參審國民法官審理的程序審判長折抵兩件分案受命法官折抵四件到宣誓判決的時候審判長折抵四件受命法官再折抵十件 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13027.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13029.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
這個獎勵機制不得了了這個法官可以折抵十個案件分案可以少十個 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13037.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13062.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所以如果裁定不行國民參與審判程序則不得主張折抵上訴於宣誓判決時再折抵的件數所以你們怎樣一邊鼓勵折抵交付國民法官審判鼓勵你們法官我給你好的鼓勵的機制你趕快交付給國民法官審判然後去折抵案件你的分擔量會減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13063.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13070.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
另一方面你們嚴格的限縮了如果你法官本身你自行去裁定你不讓他進行國民法官參審的程序進行的時候你是不能夠去折抵的換句話說 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13079.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13095.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
這一種事務分配的制度這一種獎勵制度這一種誘因把受命法官自身的利益建立在可能可能凌駕或犧牲當事人的權利之上有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13098.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13121.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那個包委員我們的觀察跟了解並不是這樣子的因為就是說我的觀察就這個個案從司法體系去觀察因為人家被告全部都認罪了你講的我全認罪然後呢跟被害家屬也達成和解被害者的家屬也說我不想要再跑這一個國民法官審理的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13122.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13133.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
然後法律也規定可以這樣子為什麼你們要硬要人家陪著你們玩跑完這個程序你知道你知道這個副秘書長告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13134.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13155.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
全台灣我去調資料全台灣各地方法院適用國民法官法的案件數跟被告這個被適用國民法官法案件裡面的被告他去申請法律輔助的人數的比例有多高你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13156.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13165.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
非常的高非常的高為什麼多高請林淑芬委員控制一下時間好不好好最後兩分鐘為什麼這麼高為什麼多高多高 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13170.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13173.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
在那個113年177件裡面呢這個是從件數來看那從被告來看的話有153位被告適用國民法官審理的案件裡面113年177件去申請法律輔助的有153件高達將近87%然後將近9成為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13198.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13209.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
因為這些所有的案件都是強制辯護案件事實上我們現在都可以申請輔助的富民署長 你內行人講外行話 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13210.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13234.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
國民法官案件的律師 對他們律師還有被告本身來說程序相當的冗長 很難處理 事情很繁瑣所以律師費用都比一般案件還要貴 還要高事實上很多被告都負擔不起 只能去找法輔啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13235.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13256.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
是這樣子而且法律師事實上不太愛辦這種案件所以我要告訴你說其實因為事情很繁瑣曠日廢時不是只有被告連受害者的家屬都還在那裡很冗長的陪你們演完這一齣因為我都認罪了我也都和解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13257.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13263.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我就等判刑 你們還要把我再演一遍不是演一遍 陪你們演一齣國民參審的一齣大戲這樣他們就要再大無盡的折磨你知道大家都知道不是個人很煩的不是被告很煩的個人怕煩他就很煩的你還要叫他 我都認罪認罪你不要再給我搞這一套程序你說不行 我就是要搞這一套程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13286.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13292.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
因為我法官可以折抵十個案件的分案量這樣對不對沒有值得說回去好好再 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13300.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13317.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
謝謝林淑芬委員今天的詢問委員信賴我們職業法官希望我們職業法官來審理這對我們的肯定我非常謝謝有要件啊我們認罪了和解了被害者的家屬也認為不想要了是這個要件那你們為什麼硬要逼人家去走那一趟呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13325.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13341.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
這個要件是有前提的所以你們是不是制度面你們的折抵你們事務分配的制度有沒有問題這個制度是建立在法官會把個人自身的利益凌駕在當事人的利益之上因為即使是承認了案件國民法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13343.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13348.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
妳覺得你們的事務分配這樣的制度對嗎到判決的時候一個可以抵十件這樣對嗎我現在問妳說妳承認沒有辦法cover過來就知道這多麼的需要耗煩 多麼需要時間多麼的需要這個很多的心力和精力有哪個人負擔得起這樣的律師的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13367.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13383.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
有哪幾個被害者的家屬負擔得起這樣子冗長的程序不要講被害被害家屬也是 更要為之檢討謝謝林書文委員不必就這樣今天詢問這樣就可以了今天因為林書文委員是最後一個不然是誰我都 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13384.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13400.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
不然誰我都不破例的我們今天所有的登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關的資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13401.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13422.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那委員吳宗憲所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那我們討論四項所列議案報告及詢答完畢那我們決議就另定期再繼續審查本次的會議進行到此結束我們現在散會 |