| IVOD_ID |
170213 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170213 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-01T10:35:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-01T10:47:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/10566d69eaf1b9ace4b239b6da661129d7789928a886f01881ccc59e5c6864178618b4638536ef0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:35:25 - 10:47:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢。
【7月1日及7月2日二天一次會】） |
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主席蔡黨委員先進列席中午中央市長官員會長共同夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請經濟部拱部長法制司羅司長以及廉政署的林副署長法制司還有廉政署 |
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49.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員好部長好 司長好 副組長好我們今天談防晶片疏忠要儘速修訂貿易法規那麼投訴司的前官員轉任民間是用旋轉門嗎來 我還是程旭德之前關心的現行的戰略性高科技貨品的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
72.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我在這裡有一份移民具名的公文 就是圖上的 是在今年的2月11日發布的他的目的是說 要去進行戰略性高科技服務的種類根據法院依據貿易法第13條 然後第二項然後他這裡說的說 管制地區有六個國家 包括大陸地區那麼這裡面有一個很奇怪的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
97.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這六個國家一般在國際社會上稱為流氓國家我們打個比方啊這些就是對某些店家來講不受歡迎的客人有這六個但是其中呢大陸地區這個客人呢我們的管制項目只管制十二類請問部長現在這個輸出的管制清單是不是一萬多項有一萬多項嘛因為公告內容我去查了一下有一萬多項 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
99.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
114.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
HS Code的12碼 有一萬多項 但是中國大陸只管制了這12項您可以告訴我們這個嚴格嗎 我這邊查的結果呢將大陸地區列入管制區是在2003年林烏部長辯時期列進去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
118.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
142.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
到了馬政五時期 到了2011年他一樣保持大陸地區列在這幾個管制區但是關鍵出現在2012年那時候的施言翔部長就公告了一個說就是這一段前向大陸地區之輸出管制限這些設備12類的半導體晶圓製造設備其他的通通是用非管制區 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
143.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
171.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
部長你覺得合理嗎這六個客人不受歡迎其中五個一萬個都產品不能賣但是這個中國這個產品只有12項不能賣這不是開關門嗎包委員因為當初來講主要我們是管制我們台灣不要去中國高階的這個半導體的這個製造尤其是12吋以上的那所以說這些基本上都是晶片高階晶片還是賣啊對不對好我們告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
184.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
國際貿易講究自由貿易為主要的原則要任何的管制要與法有據要符合國際條約對不對我們國際貿易是個原則嘛但是我們看貿易法第十三條之一當年的立法背景沒合是不是很嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
212.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
瀕臨絕種的動物植物這很嚴重嗎為什麼要帶特別輸出管制因為當時有華盛頓公約嘛所以全世界國家都對這個共同限制嘛對不對是不是這樣子我都幫你講出來了也呼應了國際趨勢好為了履行瀕臨絕種動物植物的國際貿易公約所以呢我們增進了這第一項當時的立法理由好往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
213.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
240.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那如果我們要防止金面書中要符合遵守國際貿易協定根據這個很長就對等貿易協定跟美國對等貿易協定叫ART它裡面是不是寫的台方應有效且健全管制制度防止先進半導體及相關設備不是只有產制的設備喔要怎樣 涵蓋國家 包括哪個北韓 中國 俄羅斯 伊朗違反出口管制的呢 要進行執法經濟部做得怎麼樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
242.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
264.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
8號委員這個是ART如果簽訂我們立法機關如果有通過的話那如果不簽訂你就不提出嗎我們仍然會盤點因為我同意剛剛提到12項因為環境已經不一樣了所以我們會再重新盤點很好 積極面對好不好那我給你一個建議我幫你想好了13條之二怎麼改 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
272.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
特定機體電路半導體晶圓相關製程設備及其產製品非金屬款居然虛可不得輸入大陸地區啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
273.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
297.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
就比照十二條之一的方式定了十二條之二把半導體相關這個東西這是推定項目就跟瀕臨絕種的野生動物一樣然後呢什麼地區中國大陸地區部長這樣可以嗎知不支持謝謝謝謝謝謝委員的提供那我們委員提供來講我們還要跨部門做一些討論經濟部要積極認識好不好好的好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
297.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
315.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
出口要管制但是特定資金來台要加上管制為了考慮到國家利益特定的產業資品像半導體像晶圓不能出口到像中國這種特定國家貿易法裡面這種要介入管制同樣的來自這些特定地區的資金來源投資特定公司有兩岸條例來進行管制對不對是的好那往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
316.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
336.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
現在有一家叫做數字雲端在台灣是被美國制裁管制的公司啊美國公司制裁管制的名單他說怎樣違反美國利益他是一個中資在談的子公司叫做數字雲端赫蘭在列原因是他跟中國的軍工產業高度關聯替中國開發AI跟超級電腦嚴不嚴重有沒有違反台灣的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
338.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
356.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個個案我來瞭解一下你覺得美國制裁的他這樣講的內容聽起來會不會對台灣方面有嚴重會不會您提到的是數字雲端我來瞭解一下我告訴你數字雲端怎麼來的數字雲端當年它母公司是中國浪潮在2015年未經許可就在台灣設置它違法在台灣經營機上和應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
357.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
380.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他的薪水營運費用都是由香港的惠仲公司就這家公司後來他透過香港惠仲公司呢在2015年申請投資數字雲端多次被要求補正資料後來呢投審會給他過了在2019年他還申請增資結果在增資的申請案當中發生一個弊案這個公司呢去刑費立法委員開協調會知不知道這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
389.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有沒有知不知道我沒有掌握到你回去趕快請你們同仁查一下你認為這樣的情況法院都判了脫審會有沒有疏失責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
392.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這要了解一下 這個時候在2019年他透過增資的時候他去行會請託立法委員大家訪問上查就有他指派到辦公室主任辦理這兩個人都因為違反職務受賄罪被判刑收受賄款對投審會施壓當時的投審會的執名的張明明都是召開協調會在2020年核定他的增資部長投審會看起來法院都判了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
419.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
426.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
官員沒有收賄啦是立委跟他的辦公室人員收賄被判刑了投審會員有沒有受到壓力 你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
428.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
454.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這要了解一下 你趕快了解我們往下看所以民團要求啊那時候的執迷障明明下台好像不管因為可能官員整個判決沒有提到官員但是經濟部怎麼補救從2016年核准2020年增資捷拉會被施壓結果呢現在這個公司被美國制裁我們偷懲會的把關會不會失靈呢會不會是官員漏洞呢那如果這樣的話是不是要怎麼補救可不可以廢止他的登記跟撤資可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
459.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
481.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
各位大部份你要要研究那如果有需要要趕快補救好不好好如果真的有必要因為美國都制裁他了如果真的也認為損害台灣的國家利益過這個過程當中又疑似有不是明確有法院判決有立委來介入施壓被判刑了投審會的把關機制可能要檢討這家公司如何補救經濟部回去研究一下可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
508.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
可以往下看但是我們又看到了現在當時投審會的執密呢他現在後來變成司長他是一個投處司的司長現在我們看到官網上他的職務調整中結果在理律法律事務所看到他聘他為特聘資深顧問6月30號經濟部的現任官員可以在昨天就去就任理律的法律事務所嗎可不可以這張司長是前司長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
513.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
518.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他已經離開投審司了現在是退休還是離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
519.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
544.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
他現在是退休了他是退休所以退休公務員退休後只要不受到公務員服務法第16條旋轉的限制應該是主改以後他就沒有再擔任投資投審司的司長了他就變成是投資促進司的司長投促司的司長嘛對對對投促司投審會這是兩件事情但是畢竟那段經濟部官他已經不是現任官員了離職了退休了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
544.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
563.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
他當然可以尋求他的第二人生發揮他在顧問累積的智慧跟專長我們都支持但是我們看一下他離職了那麼李綠這個專門在有涉入大陸小組處理兩岸投資的這個事務所聘用他當顧問你覺得社會上會怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
566.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
584.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他當年他在經濟部任職的時候他處理的是什麼?陸資來台審查的工作他現在退休了他去到一個以處理大陸兩岸投資為主的這個主改以後他就沒有擔任這樣的審查工作了是啦但是我們還是要問嘛他的業務有沒有可能有選擇門條款的適用往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
587.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
607.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因為按照我問過我們人士來講因為律師行業他不屬於這個規範的範圍說得很好我相信啊退休官員退休前他會問清楚但是我這裡不是質疑他的行為是認為這樣的一個程序部的含釋說法律訴訟不適用跟社會的認知差距太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
607.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
631.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
公務人員服務法說他僅認定直接關係人沒有涵蓋中間的服務機構你就看目前投審司我們的投訴司我們所有來到台灣的外資投資審查哪一個不是透過律師事務所的服務所以其實律師事務所他其實是跟我們的職務是密切相關結果你到退休後到那個地方去認職有沒有必要我們前官員去轉任法律顧問的實質影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
633.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
656.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
經濟部是不是要跟權序部來研究一下 選舉條款的定義啊是不是要有更實質的與時俱進的一個調整部長你覺得咧但是我們還是尊重這個 權序部的職點是 你們當然尊重權序部但是我還是跟委員再補充一句就是說張明斌基本上他在卸任前 他已經不是投審司的司長他是投資出軍司 所以他不 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
657.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
677.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
沒有參與審議的工作了但是他過去的職業生涯在進一步任職期間啊他有很長的業務對象就是像理律事務所這樣的那不能說他過去的業務有對象他就不能去轉任這我也理解法律要明文規定但是這樣的法律的規範是否跟社會的認知會有一個什麼差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
678.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
702.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
民團又詫異說這個以前經濟部都是專門負責入資投資審議的都是理律在辦現在結束後到理律去外界會怎麼感覺部長我是擔心外界有一些聯想是不是把這個部分拿去也跟全新部提出來表達他們這樣的含釋是不是要因應著實況的特殊條件情況下要更明確的讓公務員有所預詢好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
704.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
707.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
對數字雲端我們來瞭解一下可以嗎最後關於投審會的前官員不管了其實這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
750.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
轉任法律律師事務所的特別顧問這個部分是不是在實質上已經是我們公務員服務法選擇委員條款所要的規範的對象請你跟全職部來做一個研討好不好好那就一樣一個月內提出書面報告可以嗎好可以好謝謝好謝謝鍾小平委員謝謝 |