| IVOD_ID |
17014 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17014 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-06T08:34:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-06T12:29:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:54:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d130bdd2cddfd43859d74acb2223bdb9983051bafb051454bb74d6e56d984898c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「因應無人載具大量投入現今戰場，國軍如何構建無人載具部隊及訓練規劃、裝備籌獲等具體做法」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:04 - 12:29:00 |
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1660.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
包括委員會出席委員7人已足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1664.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1691.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我们现在开始开会请议事人员宣读上次会议议事录立法院第十一届第四会期外交及国防委员会第十二次全体委员会议议事录时间中华民国一百一十四年十一月五日星期三上午九十二分至十一时四十八分地点黄楼三零一会议室出席委员陈俊宇等九人列席委员赖世保等十人请教委员黄仁林毅君列席人员 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1691.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1709.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
外交部部長林佳龍及所屬人員國家安全局副局長張元斌經濟部政務次長姜文若大陸委員會副主任委員沈有忠行政院經貿談判辦公室資深談判代表兼執行秘書許崇清主席馬洲籍委員文君報告事項已宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1710.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1736.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
二 邀請外交部部長 國家安全局局長 經濟部次長大陸委員會副主任委員 行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表報告川普亞洲行及川習會後印太區域經濟安全情勢對我之影響並被質詢外交部部長林佳龍國家安全局副局長張元斌 經濟部政務次長姜文若報告委員陳俊宇等12人質詢軍用外交部部長林佳龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1738.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1756.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
國際合作及經濟事務司司長林育平經濟部政務次長姜文若大陸委員會副主任委員沈有忠及行政院經貿談判辦公室資深談判代表兼執行秘書曲崇欽等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均發言完畢報告及巡大結束二委員陳永康黃忍黃婕林益君 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1757.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1769.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
及楊瓊英所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆後要求提供資資訊請相關機關與二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並赴資本會宣讀完畢請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1783.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1800.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒有我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告因應無人載具大量投入現今戰場國軍如何構建無人載具部隊及訓練規劃裝備籌貨等具體做法並被質詢 宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1814.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1836.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
陳俊瑜陳委員以及我們與會的官員國防部顧立雄顧部長副參謀總長執行官黃志偉黃上將全民防衛動員署李定忠李署長總督察長是盧建忠總督察長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1839.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1857.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
參事 石文龍 石參事政務辦公室 孫立芳 孫主任政治作戰局 史順文 史局長軍備局 林文祥 林局長主計局 稅計處 陳偉廷 陳處長軍醫局 蔡建松 蔡局長戰略規劃司 黃文綺 黃司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1867.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1892.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
資源規劃司 藍靜婷 藍司長法律事務司 吳義聖 吳司長整合評估司 苗慧芬 苗司長國防採購司 趙雅萍 趙主任人事參謀次長是 劉沛志 劉次長情報參謀次長是 謝日昇 謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是 連志威 連次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1899.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1907.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔理事長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮邱參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1922.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1951.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
空軍司令部 李慶然 李參謀長後備指揮部 薛淵權 薛參謀長憲兵指揮部 文念宗 文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部 梁永坤 梁參謀長直通電軍指揮部 周文祥 周參謀長軍事情報局 李永康 李執行長電訊發展室 林政委 林執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1953.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1960.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
國防大學李承忠 李教育長國家中山科學研究院李士強 李院長本日會議邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告因應無人載具大量投入現今戰場國軍如何構建無人載具部隊以及訓練規劃裝備籌貨等具體做法並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1991.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2012.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席 各位委員先進今天應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對國安安全的關切指導在此表達誠摯的謝意二五戰爭中烏克蘭在人力資源劣勢下廣泛運用民間價廉大量生產之無能載具 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2013.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2039.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
充分發揮不對稱作戰優勢成功執制俄軍進攻及企圖此一經驗 組織借鑒國軍依敵情威脅及防衛作戰需求各艦艇型及攻擊型無人機皆陸續貨裝且以建制專責部隊同步發展訓練規範及作戰教則並將納入明年下半年戰演訓驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2041.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2059.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
另一關 科技產業政策指導 結合民間力量藉由多元管道持續籌獲各式無人載具 以加速形成戰力持續由本部 接續由本部座機室次長 聯支會中將就國軍建構無人載具部隊及訓練規劃 裝備籌獲等具體做法向各位委員實施報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2073.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2097.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
委員各位先進大家好 接續由我來實施報告因應無人載具大量投入現今的戰場我國軍如何建構無人載具的部隊以及訓練規劃裝備籌貨等具體做法進行專案報告首先無人載具已經被廣泛運用於現代戰爭與衝突中展現作戰價值與運用的彈性可充分發揮不對稱作戰的效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2099.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2109.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
國軍的無人載具發展是以科技取代人力火力取代兵力的原則並且朝向量大 價廉 可消耗 急增急供等方向的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2110.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2138.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
平時是分擔國軍各部隊執行海空監偵及巡邏等耗時高風險的任務來降低人員的負荷跟高架裝備的損耗暫時則是支援防衛作戰的任務搭配主要的武器實施精準的打擊以拒止 遲制或擾亂敵的犯台行動迫使敵作戰任務失敗並且放棄奪台的企圖接著包括作戰運用的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2139.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2159.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
國軍依據防衛固守重成嚇阻的軍事戰略建構多域巨子任性防衛的作戰準備方向建立各軍種的無人機專責部隊並依照作戰任務劃分連戰戰術及戰鬥等三個層級的兵火力運用首先在連戰層級執行長時間遠航程的台灣周邊聯合海空域徵收監視與攻擊任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2167.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2186.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在戰術層級在戰時執行對敵海上跟登陸部隊的目標徵收識別並誘使敵船艦船團消耗防空飛彈增加我方的反艦飛彈突穿成功公算以協力聯合反登陸 濱海跟探案作戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2188.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2209.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
第三個部分在戰鬥層級是採即時的徵收及識別延伸原建制武器的攻擊跟警戒距離精確標準 標定目標位置進行即時的攻擊縮短作戰反應時間協力遂行兵海 探案戰鬥 重生防禦以及持久作戰接著報告訓練的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2211.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2223.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
國軍持續完善無人載具訓練的體系依據部隊的類型裝備的形式以及其所負的任務訂定了訓練政策訓練的階段培訓機制準則發展及訓測的標準等 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2226.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2241.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
以明確各項訓練的規範使各軍種的無人載具部隊在戰技 戰鬥以及戰術整合運用上具備支援作戰的能力現行專責的軍種無人機訓練機構既有陸軍的無人機訓練中心海軍的專長訓練中心陸戰隊的專長訓練中心以及空軍 航院的技訓中心等四個專責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2252.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2258.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
集中資源在戰術層級來實施高階訓練那既有無人機師資班等10類以擴充訓練能量另規劃在第1、2類的兼徵型無人機的飛行訓練則是由部隊的師資來去師訓並簽證以擴增三軍部隊無人機的基礎戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2274.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2300.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
另外依照基礎訓練、專長訓練、駐地訓練、基地訓練以及聯合演訓與後備教育召集等階段採循序漸進、逐步強化的方式來推展以培訓人員取得專長的證書強化操作技能、任務規劃、戰術運用以及戰力整合的能力滿足各類型部隊的戰力需求以因應未來無人載具的作戰型態 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2301.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2324.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
接著報告裝備的籌貨依照國防法第22條結合民間的力量發展國防科技工業獲得武器裝備是以自製為優先同步尋求國內廠商採偽製研發以及商購的方式來籌貨武器並提升自主修維護的能量落實國防自主的政策以增強自我防衛的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2325.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2345.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
去年2月1日已成立國防創經小組依創新作戰的概念國外實戰的經驗及國防科技的發展趨勢持續與國內外國防新創廠商交流聚焦民間成熟的技術研議各種可形成戰力的方案使國軍因應戰場需求的變化創造作戰優勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2347.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2352.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
據此國軍無人載具籌購採自治優先軍商購為輔的原則對國內無法自治獲得藉由國外現貨市場的軍商購等多元途徑來採購縮短籌貨的期程加速提升戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2363.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2377.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
另外依照國軍的聯合戰力規劃要項以及五年兵力整建計畫的建案期程以逐年獲得兼征型 既有戰術進程 目獲 圍型 陸用型 艦載型以及兼征等六型 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2378.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2404.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
攻擊型具有劍翔 近鋒 彈簧刀300及Artis 600等4型並為中科院籌建遙控無人機防禦商購外導無人機反制以及部隊可吸式的無人機反制等系統部署運用未來將持續增加影像識別 抗干擾及多重導控等軟硬體的關鍵技術發展建立國內自主研發以及產製的能量來達成國防與經濟雙贏的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2408.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2431.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
最後國軍為適應科技創新發展與現代戰場的變化積極引進民間無人載具新興科技及現貨市場的裝備以民間無限的潛力創新思維及專業經驗協助開發軍事作戰領域所需的技術與產品加速國防創新與自主韌性並朝向新訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2431.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2443.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
新思維新裝備新科技等建軍整備發展快速建立強韌的嚇阻戰力以提升國軍整體防衛作戰效益以上報告敬請各位委員先進指導謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2449.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2465.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝昭偉我們有請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2479.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2479.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
請顧部長部長早是 陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2487.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2514.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
部長無人載具不但是我們現代這個戰場廣泛被使用的一種器具那也是我們建構不對稱戰力極其重要的一環那我想就無人機的這個籌貨裝備和相關的運用規劃來和部長您做一個討論那先前行政院在這個跨部會的專案會議當中擬定無人機的推動方向以這個產業發展還有國防自主那還有一個民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2516.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2544.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個供應鏈三大政策為目標並且以推動我們軍民共規等五大策略來辦理那也有報載提及這個軍民共規就是平戰轉換還有軍民通用那國軍和各部會所使用的這個無人機如果在共同規格下來生產暫時的時候這個動員不用太多時間就可以投入到戰場來使用那我想請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2544.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2557.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
以軍民共歸的這個規劃來建置我們無人機是國防部目前已經在落實的一個政策目標嗎還是我們已經將這個無人機的這個屏障轉換已經納入在規劃當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2558.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2581.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
現在就是說我們陸續會再籌購這些相關的無人機那無人機的機體的介面上面我們希望是民間的機體的介面跟我們軍方採購的機體介面是一致的那如果這樣的機體介面有一個共規的話那麼日後再做這個平站轉換的時候應該就是會比較就比較沒有問題也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2587.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2606.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他本來是民用的嘛那要把他轉回軍用因為有一個共規的集體介面那我們要裝上相關的火工的配件那我們就可以馬上來轉成作為軍用具有攻擊能力就可以直接轉換 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2608.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2619.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
在國防部這次的報告當中我們也有提到依照國防法第22條結合民間的力量除了籌貨武器之外也要提升自主的修復 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2621.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2640.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
維護的這個能量來落實我們國防自主的一個政策那針對這個無人機後勤維保的這個規劃在今天的這個報告當中似乎是沒有這個提及是不是請部長說明我們接下來購入的這個大量無人機對於自主維保的這個能量跟人力是否充足 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2643.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2664.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我想最主要的觀念當然就是說因為我們籌購的方向還是有多元因為我們有為私製的那有商購的然後也有這個商購也有分成對國內商購或者是對國外商購那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2665.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2686.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主要的政策目標應該當然都是說我們希望能夠強化我們在地的生產能量依照烏克蘭的經驗告訴我們你要能夠落地生產那麼再維持這個戰時的韌性應該就能夠確保所以這個後勤的維保的這個部分當然也是我們關注的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2688.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2699.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
當然要看如果是屬於我們在國內自製的那這個維保的部分就會能量會比較沒有問題而且可以再生產的能力也高 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2701.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2722.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
無人機要看他一到五類看不同的狀況有一些是屬於消耗品有一些是屬於像四五類這種那這個是非常高價的那我們也設法要在這裡建立一定的維修的能量那一二三類的話在某種程度上面如同一個消耗品如果他 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2723.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2749.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
尤其是攻擊型他可能打出去他就沒有再回來所以我們會有不同的一個您剛問的這個問題其實要看他的這個用途類別然後他籌購的來源然後我想會以這個維持一個在暫時具有一個韌性作為一個最高的政策指導目標細分用途再來做區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2750.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2779.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那從這次的書面報告當中也看到我們對於無人機訓練體系的建構以及我們所需的相關資源也陸續到位尤其是陸海空軍都分別建置了專責的訓練機構那有關各軍種所建置的無人機專責的訓練機構在報告當中我們所提及的集中資源是什麼樣的資源那又有哪些部隊需要實施高階訓練是不是就能夠公開的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2780.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2780.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
部長可以簡單的訓示 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2783.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2812.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
委員好 我是巡視次長跟委員報告有關這個集中資源的部分就是要運用我們這個軍種的專責機構它包括它的專業教官還有它的場地 還有設備還有我們整個流路我們必須訓練形成重點那我們希望把這些資源用在後續的所謂高階的訓練就是攻擊型還有中大型的艱增無人機因為它的訓練上必須要去系統的整合或多人的操作以上的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2813.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2822.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好 那我們負責防衛的防衛首都的這個憲兵也有構置一批這個無人機目前還沒有自己的訓練機構嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2827.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2854.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
委員好 我是憲兵參謀長向您報告我們相關的專責訓練機構規劃那首先報告那個我們總人的培訓其實本部從去年到今年為止我們送訓的民航局的相關班隊以及陸軍有軍的無人機訓練中心和本部置訓目前已培養了282員具有簽證合格的操作所那這操作所裡面還有11員是奉 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2854.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2875.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
已經核定一個高階的師製教官那我們也預劃在115年在我們本部的憲兵訓練中心來開設一個常態的無人機班隊預劃每年來培養250元的操作所那這些操作所也會作為我們各部隊來擴訓的基礎手能 以上報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2877.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2896.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
還有在今年3月份的時候也曾經詢問過部長這個無人機操作會不會納入教召部長您當時也回應說應該要納入因為這個14天的教召時間比較充裕也符合人人都能夠操作無人機的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2899.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2914.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
8月份青年日報的這個報導有看到然後已經有教招的這個招援實施操作的多軸的這個無人機那針對目前我們無人機納入教招的課程之後訓練的目標以及初步的這個成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2915.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2939.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
是不是請部長簡要說明一下委員好 謝謝委員指導有關於這個教招的部分訓練的部分我區分兩個部分向委員來做報告第一個部分就是我們的後備部隊上一次跟委員報告了我們會接裝850架左右的無人機我們在今年10月份的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2940.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2954.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
10月16號我們第一梯次450架我們已經接裝了然後同步我們在8月份在接裝之前我們就已經參加了偽商的廠商的相關的課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2955.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2966.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個課程區分為基本跟高級兩個課程然後基本的部分總共19梯次目前我們已經完訓了有5梯次227元那11月3號開始我們會開始進入高級的這個訓練的梯次 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2976.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2995.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那第二部分我要向委員報告因為後備部隊教召的部分我們在後備部隊14天的課程裡面我們有檢討出來然後從10月1號開始教召部隊就已經有兩個小時的無人機操作的課程了我們會持續再做 謝謝委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2997.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3014.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那另外這個中共的這個無人機對我外離島這個洗腦已經非常頻繁在上個月剛發布的這個114年國防報告書當中針對這個中共無人機洗腦外離島的行為軍方目前訂定了四個步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3015.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3030.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
印儲的流程會動用干擾槍 步槍 機槍以及軟硬殺的方式來擊落無人機那我們現行應對無人機洗腦的印儲要領為什麼還沒有納入反無人機系統的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3033.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3056.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我想國軍已經開始建立我們本島還有外島的這個一個是無人機防禦就是說本島跟外島的這個系統有12套這個是已經建置的那後續還會再依序來建置這個我們本島跟外島的這個無人機的反制系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3057.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3074.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
就目前還沒有建置完成嗎還在進行當中就是說相關的這個我想安裝的地點可能不太適宜公布但是基本上來講就是說我們現行的在 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3077.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3105.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
UDS的部分大概是有10套吧9套 沒關係 部長可公開說明的說明對 我想私下再跟委員做一些說明然後陸續還會再就一些適當的地方我們來進行安裝好 那就我們所了解到的我們陸軍所採購26套固定式的這個無人機反制系統其中第一梯13套應該在今年10月上旬已經交裝了並且在這個驗收合格之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3105.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3123.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
就可以接續部署而第二梯的這個部分則是在明年交裝那我想請教部長國防部所採購的無人機反制系統在交裝跟部署的這個期程是否都很順利那這個陸軍第一梯13套的這個裝備是否已經都部署完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3126.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3147.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
委員陸軍參謀長向您報告第一梯的確在10月份已經依照契約和節點已經完成了第一梯13套的膠裝那我們要對它實施一個是目視驗收還有一個性能的驗收性能的驗收也在10月底完成目前我們預計在明天會出具整個的驗測報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3148.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3155.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那會是驗測報告的結果來決定後續的部署或是其他的這個建案的程序以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3156.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3180.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 那在今年九月的台北航太國防展當中也有許多的廠商秀出自家的研發成果其中不乏來自國外的廠商的反無人機系統的展示國內廠商也是百家爭鳴包括中科院自己所研發的相關系統據說也相當有程度的一個進展那對於反制無人機的系統採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3181.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3209.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
也是會以我們這個國內自治的這個系統為主要優先採購的目標嗎我們會有不同的籌貨管道是會有不同的籌貨管道就是國內外的現貨市場上面合乎我們這個作戰需求的我們都會納入評估符合我們需求的不限國內外不限不限國內也那個就國內外的現貨市場上面我們認為可以儘速籌購的我們都會納為我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3211.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3231.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
選購了一個標的好那另外可吸式無人機的這個反制系統根據報載公開越南的相關資料顯示國防部想要這個被動偵測範圍4公里那可反制範圍要2公里以上的設備還需要能夠放置在小型這個車輛載運也要滿足車輛還有船艦等各式的這個載具運用那針對這個可吸式的這個反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3239.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3258.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
可惜式的這個無人機反制系統我們國防部籌獲的這個規劃以及建制的這個需求跟運用手段這個是不是請部長還是參謀長檢要說明一下我想現在我們進行這個還在進行一個建案的作業我想後續就如果有可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3259.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3277.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
可以公開的時候我們再來公開因為現在是依照相關的節點來管制執行所以還沒有最後完成好 那後續我們這個無人載具的相關籌貨還有人才培訓都需要加緊腳步那這部分就請我們國防部還有我們相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3280.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3304.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個陸海空軍我們對於我們所作戰需求我們一定要做好最周全的一個這個準備讓我們這個所有的軍官在我們武器使用還有相關設備使用上能夠無虞我相信這才是保護我們國家最好的一個方式是 我們會來就審慎的規劃好 謝謝部長 謝謝蔡總統以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3311.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3314.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
謝謝接下來請陳永康陳委員上台諮詢好主席有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3341.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3357.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
部長早安是陳委員辛苦剛剛聽完了報告我們持正面肯定來支持它的運用但是我們對任何國際情勢說國內情勢兩岸情勢我們常常用講不對稱的一個方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3358.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3376.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
其实我们对局势来看有主观的有客观的有宏观的有微观的有乐观的有悲观的有前瞻的有反思的所以在这个八个条件下单独讲不对称这是战术性的不对称 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3376.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3404.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
战略性对方的实力他的钱财数量远超过我们因此在今天的报告里面有三项提到了就是说连战的运用那这个是通常是高阶的那这个会整合到国军整体的系统也就是未来的台湾之盾那个指管情资分享甚至到了这个战术层级也要纳入这个系统 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3405.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3424.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那我们现在谈到的是战斗层级战斗层级大概使用基本上就是地面部队为主了那这个部分我想请陆军参谋长还有直通电军的参谋长因为这里面有一些技术性的问题要救教各位各位看一下我们的UAV的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3431.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3441.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
这个链路的基本原则是指管链路与硬体要符合不对称作战这个是假设我在战场内 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3442.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3462.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
海滩附近及城镇这个是优势在我这边这叫不对称如果离开台湾海岸多少里那种属于战术型或者是连战型的那个是指管架构是不同的这里面我们考虑到你看涵盖的范围指管畅通讯息优势 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3463.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3473.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
战场的韧性我们有个核心的议题就是国防部依威胁提出军用频道需求这个要跟国家通讯传播委员会NCC |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3474.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3493.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
跟主管全国通讯频道跨部会协商满足国军的基本的任性需求不是买了装备大家训练操作但是在很多属于国内整体频道频宽这个东西的条件下要早一点 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3494.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3514.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
跟NCC要他切割出来这个要拨给国军如果照承评时期他拨给你的非常有限各位看你下面的两个我们的前提是GPS没有被干扰第二个WiFi也没有被干扰那这种情况下语音通信频道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3516.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3538.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
是8到12KB然后中等解析度10公分高等解析度10公分中高解析度10到30公分低阶的是1公尺那传输的速度不同前提是如果到了城镇作战WiFi的固定转播台都断掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3539.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3551.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這個時候要有中繼台那這個中繼台的需求車輛是在哪一個建軍的項目下通知電軍在這個地方有提供這個參考嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3563.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3589.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
鮑委員 站棍市長這邊向委員報告我們目前就戰術層級的部分我們在擴大微波通信車的構置那在這一次行政院的特別預算裡面我們也已經把衛星備援的這個部分加進來那後續在116到117的這個部分我們還會在全面檢討因應新式武器裝備它的傳輸需求所需要的通信裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3592.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3609.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
各位看右下角像我们的全球之音这个是军售的本来就有卫星的频道本来就有国军的专用频道所以它的解析度是高解析度而且它已经可以传输率到500Mbps |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3610.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3632.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
这个跟我们国造的毫不关联现在我们比较关切的是陆军在地面用不管是宪兵后备这个频道就像你刚刚讲的如果现有的成平时期你做训练都不成问题但是如果因为一旦两岸冲突发生部分的地面通讯站 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3633.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3658.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
固定台都没有了所以中继台你刚刚讲的那个是非常重要因为那个东西的条件下我们有主观 客观我们有宏观 微观我们不要用乐观指数你要做我们讲就是最坏的scenario的情况下我这个时候的支撑度还到什么时候这个时候不只是操作训练最主要是通讯的训练 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3661.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3681.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
现在看看我们的运用我们有连战成绩战术成绩连战跟战术成绩国军这是长期规划而且数量控制通讯频道都有做分割现在关心的就是战斗成绩这个卫星刚刚您提到了卫星服务那个频道请问是one web公司吗是不是one web |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3689.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3707.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
包委員好 我是通知市長包委員您剛講的是哪一個我講的就是Wi-Fi沒有了目前OneWeb是用在民用的部分並沒有用在軍用的部分那軍用的部分是ST2 就是這個週星二號 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3708.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3731.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
但是你現在在這個預算編列裡面這是自通電軍的 新式衛星租用服務新式衛星租用是特別預算裡面將來會新籌購一個高通量的衛星那是另外一型衛星 並不是one wave我知道 可是你一共兩年嘛 52套加1000套嘛因為你並沒有地面站 你只是地面接收點 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3733.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3746.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是有兩個地面機動的接收站其他的都是接收點沒有錯對 其他是接收點那因為你這個網管中心只有兩套是 兩個網管中心對 但是你在暫時的時候你確認你這1052套夠用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3749.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3765.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
目前我們是以最大量的需求來評估那將來會陸陸續續增加最大量的需求是指地面無人機在單位時間內使用的數量嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3766.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3781.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
你不是比方讲你这个四万八千多加五这个多少量你最大的起飞量在使用的过程中间你要有东西足够support它是因为你现在编的是46亿元这是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3783.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3799.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
裝備設施現在建立租金可是兩年後你要用要付錢那個陸軍要編進預算就是陳平時期不用衛星是正常時期那你就是中華電信 遠傳你那個SIM卡你要付錢的所以這個要早點規劃你編的架設就樂觀看 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3803.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3825.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
几万价次但是你在单位时间内可能使用的是数十价几百价但这个可是你每一价你都要付钱你到时候再换卡是比较来不及的所以提请大家注意成租的费用跟建立量能的初步投资到后面正常使用运用的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3826.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3847.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
包括海军还有其他的优先他们讲的用的是C-band但是现在并不在我们国军分配给它的频段内那也是要用钱的所以在国防产业上我们支持无人机的国内制造但是大家都不告诉你用它的飞机现在买的是硬体到时候要花钱的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3847.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3865.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以你传回来的影像解析度在某种情况下只能用语音通讯那你暂时的时候你用AI先建置内存某个区用哪些飞机因为乌克兰跟我们的状况不一样是乌克兰城镇之间30公里城市之间100公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3868.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3890.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
除了公路以外就是丘陵地面看到的不是乌克兰的就是俄军的所以看着就打消耗型非常有效在台湾来讲目标识别尤其是高楼林地你无法从一个比方讲200公尺高看到一个东西就一头垂直下去所以在训练过程中的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3891.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3915.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
场景的模拟这个我们以前很早就也玩过这个东西了这各种的系统我们都用过像我也在国外用过OneWeb控制系统我只是提醒成平时期所有通讯可靠的时候到暂时你的限制因素发生了你要预估你哪些能力不能发挥而不是装备不好是不能发挥这个要提醒注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3918.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3945.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我们讲训练是过程 实用才是目的怎么样要把我们的准则教范 训场跟科目要融合这个才能满合实战的条件这个频率分配无人载具的活动空间含高度跟横距会不会产生单位跟单位之间的牵连或甚至说干扰到了因为分配的东西很有限如何在有限的资源下运用 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3945.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3964.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
以满足无人载具在不对称作战的需求这个是准则叫犯对应你不能用你的无人机去对抗它的无人机它数量太大但是在岛上有限条件下我们应该有优势但这个优势建立在你要有很多机动中信台而且假设 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3965.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3987.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
GPS失效WiFi没有那就是刚刚你讲的要靠其他的卫星频道来提供这时候数量会大幅减少所以你在写想定的时候要纳入你的作战的计划里面准则叫范还有授权到什么地方假设是联机以下的看到就打那你的操作手就要负责任了创错目标了长官不扛的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3988.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4014.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
如果是远程大型目标你可能连营长甚至旅长这种那这个远程的都是空军跟海军在用在海上那个长官来负责那现在就是无人机的干扰器属于独立系统会不会干扰到像特别强调金马祖外岛的运用有限运用下无人机不对称的作战需求那如何与防空识别整合为同步行 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4015.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4030.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
因為我們前兩天就提了台灣之盾這裡面有個很重要的問題就是參數資料庫要納入AI它才幫你判這個跟賣你無人機的廠商並沒有關係所以尤其是風群攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4031.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4047.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
敌方的风情里面一定有一个反辐射你在干扰他他就创你所以并不是全部是来对地面目标他有一个是反辐射的那这个时候我们如何反反制将来这个还有一段时间持续精进发展那中科院也会扮演一个最后的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4050.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4065.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個是今天早上的我還是強調一下今天早上進來的目標比較少紅色圈圈是中共的商船藍色是我們的商船那因為剛剛提到了這個無人機在外島部署做監控也是一個很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4066.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4091.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
工具但是勤之的回饋是不是每天早上我們的城會都會把金門外島所有的船做一個報告監控這個時候不管是金防部或是海巡署它的這個有用的水面的海警海巡的船隻甚至配合我們地區的無人機去做識別判斷這個整合進來才會成為未來的所謂的台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4095.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4104.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
台湾之盾但台湾之盾整合上是一个很重要的目标也有很大的挑战我希望我们要大家来努力请部长做一点指导跟回应 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4105.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4130.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我想台灣之盾的確的重點就是在於那個相關的整合所有的偵測器的整合然後到這個確定目標識別之後那或做一個適當的火力協調分配然後整合到所有的shooter整合所有的shooter然後來適時的來進行這個適當的一個回應我想這是整個我們現在的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4131.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4160.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那現在就是說要如何將所有的sensor整合在一起然後再利用AI的輔助來做適當的一個活力協調分配然後再運用各式的suites來進行回擊我想這個是一個挑戰我們會陸續來努力來完成謝謝部長這個大家都在努力但是挑戰也是非常艱鉅的要大家一起來克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4162.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4164.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請顧部長是 羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4189.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4195.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
部長好 部長今年的漢關演習澎湖馬宮基地連續四天遭到不明無人機的侵擾其實如果把時間往前推的話在111年8月的時候金馬外島跟金門的二膽島其實也是連續遭到小型無人機的侵擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4207.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4229.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那我記得去年的時候本席曾經也請教過就是說當國軍國軍是如何偵測到這個入侵的無人機那時候國防部給我的這個回答是讓我非常的驚訝就是說我們是用目測那作為一個科技大導這個回答真的讓本席真的不可思議那當然國防部那時也有回應就是說其實我們正在建制 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4230.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4232.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個雷達的這個監測的這個系統我在想其中應該有包含就是剛剛陳俊宇委員所提到的這個就是26套的這個反制系統其實這個反制系統的話是到今年的這個元滅份才招標出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4249.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4264.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
不然應該是在今年的12月31號以前必須要履約完畢可是我剛剛有聽到國防部的回應就是說其實我們目前只交付了12套剩下來的可能就是明年才會交付完畢等於說整個時間是比原先的履約的時間可能就是會往後延 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4269.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4280.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那我本身想了解的就是說那除了陸軍司令部呢這26套的防治系統那我也知道就是說空軍司令部另外有辦理就是由空軍司令部來統籌辦理的這個高達43億遙控無人機防疫系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4285.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4307.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我想了解一下就是說空軍司令部的這一套43億的這個遙控無人機防禦系統跟陸軍司令部的這一套到底它的區別在哪裡空軍司令部的這43億的這些系統是建置在哪裡因為是統籌辦理是不是被分佈到各軍種這個部分可以說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4310.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4323.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
委員好 我是空軍司令部參謀長跟委員報告我們空軍建置的主要是固定式的還有一個就是自動電軍一個機動式的無人機反制系統主要陸軍跟空軍的部分是建置在機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4324.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4347.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那這裡面包含兩個部分一個是干擾槍我們在112年已經籌獲310支干擾槍已經配發到各單位那固定式的總共有19座那在各個基地為主固定式的那機動式的是以自動電軍的機動載台為主那這有5套總共是24套那目前建案的進度都是正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4348.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4372.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以這個部分的話空軍司令部建設其實還是以干擾槍的建設因為你剛才提到這部分不是 干擾槍分兩個部分一個是干擾槍另外一個是固定式的在基地裡面它有一個固定式的一個監測主動被被動的監測的還有干擾的一個裝備這在基地裡面是一個比較大範圍所以說它的監測是可以接收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4374.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4395.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
四種頻率就是包含了你在操作的GPS頻率影像傳輸的頻率還有遙控的頻率這個被動接收到之後它可以比較精確的定位出它的方位然後在我們的主控站基地的主控站就可以看到無人機從哪個方向來在什麼位置所以說建置之後我們各基地的反應都非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4395.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4419.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
他很清楚的可以知道現在有哪個無人機在什麼位置然後他上面會有一個主動式的干擾槍由基地的控制中心遙控的去做一個干擾那這個部分我們空軍司令部我們所辦理的這個無人機防疫系統案這個部分的話是都已經建置完成目前正在建置中到明年的年底會全數完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4419.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4443.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
到明年底會全數完成就對了因為我不太了解這兩個建制的內容跟差別是在哪裡再來的話就跟委員報告因為剛剛兩個是不同一個是要在後續建制一個有一部分在九套是已經建制完成了這個部分的話 按照我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4444.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4449.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
時勢的乾燥的來看的話是只要是進入紅區的話我們都能夠有效的驅離這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4452.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4476.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
對 因為我現在部長講到一個重點就是接下來我想要請問的我知道目前的這個SOP的流程是比如說我們必須要識別監控告警通報安全確認防禦設計等等我們在針對這些入侵到營區或是到一些機敏區域的這些無人機我們現在還是要跑這些流程嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4477.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4496.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
目前還是要跑這個流程嗎會跑完流程的話早就已經被無人機早就已經收證已經完畢然後就離開了我們是針對這些機敏區域我們還是必須要跑這些SOP流程嗎鮑委員我們我是座議事次長針對無人機的防禦我們之前有說明我們說要區分主被動還有區分軟硬砂 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4500.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4523.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
當然能夠建置所有的自動化的反制系統包含主動被動的偵測以及主動的干擾那是我們期盼隨著建案的作業以及預算的獲得我們會逐次去建立那另外在部隊防護的本身這是一個基本訓練也就是說未來在戰時我們可能在不同的場域交戰或是我們的系統的功能的發揮的不同程度的狀況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4524.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4544.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
部隊必須進行本身自我的防護你講的是暫時嘛如果是說現在陳平時代呢陳平時代我們還是不斷說到這個這個可能就是外來的這個侵入嘛對不對也許是跟這個敵外勢力有關係那就是入侵到我們的機敏區域的話我們還是沒有辦法及時來處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4546.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4570.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這是兩個同時間要進行的就是用自動化監控的設備由專業操作員來去進行有效的反制那同時間在營區範圍內或是我們在操作區範圍內的部隊也必須進行我們主要是進行一點身邊連鎖反應所以他會有識別監控那告警通報他同時要通報所有周邊的友軍共同去進行警戒跟防禦 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4571.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4595.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以他是一個部隊處置的程序這是一個基本的部隊防護程序所以必須同時進行訓練跟進行整備這樣不然在平時戰時他能夠有效的去應對跟應處跟委員做說明所以我們之後其實還是不會針對機敏區域來做一個比較特殊的一個法律上的一個修正是不會就對了所以我們還是會按照這些流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4598.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4600.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
跑完這些流程然後再來做處置的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4602.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4629.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
報告委員好 我是法律師司長報告委員報告在今年114年8月1號施行的軍事營區安全維護條例當中其中第10條就國軍在執行軍事營區安全勤務時對無人機侵入飛越營區或是侵入營區的部分有危害國家軍事或是營區的安全設施或經營設備時我們可以使用器具遇適當的處理已經有法源依據了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4630.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4652.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
今年的8月1號已經施行了是 之前我知道好像還要再先警告警告再來的話再來確定甚至之前為了怕說有一些產生一些突發狀況所以我們連這個使用一些比較硬殺的部分我們之前曾經拿過拿掉過這個部分那現在的話是允許的嗎是 那必要的時候也可以使用武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4656.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4673.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
OK好謝謝那再來就是說國防部今年8月份有宣布將無人機的操作維護等基礎訓練納入新兵必學的這個課程裡面那其實這樣這個部分的話其實相關的這個建議其實本席也曾經有建議過然後對於這項規劃本席是予以肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4680.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4694.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
像之前我們陸軍司令部曾經就說過希望達到人人都是無人機的操作員可是無人機的性能跟精密度其實是不一樣的當然我有看到今天的報告有提到訓練規劃的部分我們現在現行的專責軍種無人機的訓練其實是分不到各軍種而且我們還有分所謂的高階訓練等等當然明年2026年美國的MQ |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4708.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4731.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
9B的這個無人機即將可能就是要抵達台灣了那之前我有看過報導像不是每一個人都能夠操作他必須要有這個空軍的這個背景所以可能我們還會分不同的個人看這個這個軍人他自己本身的背景可能會安排到不同的這個訓練的這個階層嘛這個我們都可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4731.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4759.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那當然我有看到就有很多其實有很多的國家現在無人機的配置方面正在推行所謂高端跟低端互相搭配並用的這個方式那高端無人機當然就是提到就是剛剛像美國的MQ-9B收割機像這次屬於高端的無人機甚至還有美國的RQ-4全球鷹等等都是那低端的部分讓我驚訝的就是說像澳洲今年宣布援助 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4760.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4779.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
烏克蘭BBDS無人機機體是用瓦勒紙做的而且是用在偵查物資接送還有短程的供給造價非常的便宜大概3500美金南韓也有類似的低端無人機研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4781.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4796.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
像台灣的話台灣其實也在積極的研發無人機的生產我們也想要打造一個無人機的產業所以我想請教一下台灣有沒有這方面的規劃有沒有這方面的研發或這方面的需求 請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4797.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4813.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我想先回答一下那個剛剛委員提到的就是說無人機的訓練我想這個新兵的基礎訓練就是屬於最基礎的訓練然後他會還有進入到比較高專長的訓練那MQ-9V這個部分那是屬於更 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4814.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4840.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
更高端 應該是屬於連戰成績他可能需要空軍的背景才有辦法去操作我有看過這方面跟一架戰鬥機一樣另外剛剛提到的這些有關我們有國防創新小組已經來做一些創新的一個運用我想我們整理師要不要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4844.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4859.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
你也說明一下中科院院長這邊跟你說明子製的無人機它是一種低成本的趨勢目前我們低成本的部分我們比較主要投入在第一個3D列印基層製造的部分第二個是射出成型 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4860.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4874.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這兩項都是目前我們國內的優勢那事實上它跟紫緻的比起來的話其實價格相差不會太多尤其是色出成型的部分其實你是可以把價格壓得蠻低的如果是大量製造的話這是我們現在比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4875.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4904.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
取向的部分那紫緻的部分不是說我們沒有去投入只是紫緻的部分在台灣目前我們這麼潮濕還有接近海洋的環境之下其實我們有評估過它不是我們目前比較積極去投入的方式所以其實並不是說每個產業台灣都適合因為台灣的這個潮濕的環境所以澳洲跟韓國雖然他們有在研發可是以台灣的環境來講其實氣候環境是不適合的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4905.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4926.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
院長是這樣子的意思嗎我想我們都可以來探討我想著重於在3D列印這個部分應該是我們現在的一個重點對 我們正在研發當中嗎就3D列印的部分是 還沒有進入到市場 是不是在 TIO的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4928.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4943.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
是 委員好 我是整平司司長在明年我們有規劃一個用小批量籌貨的方式去採購3D列印的無人機那買進來之後我們會讓部隊來試用了解它的功性能是不是符合我們的作戰需求等 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4943.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4967.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以我們還是要先引進之後我們先再來研究所以目前還沒有進入到這個研發的階段就對了沒有 我們就直接在現貨的市場上面先現貨市場先買進來來售一些成功的產品那我們現在有一個機制就是用小批量採購的方式那如果覺得可以我們就直接可以進入量產的階段這樣好 謝謝 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4973.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4978.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
謝謝羅委員的發言下面我們請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4994.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5008.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
部長早部長我們今天特別安排這樣子的一個議題主要是因為我們未來會投入非常高額的預算在無人載具上面不管是無人機無人艇或者其他相關的無人載具他也是未來一個很重要的趨勢當然我們如果提升自己本身的量能或者籌備足夠的這樣子的一些裝備也好或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5021.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5033.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
攻擊武器也好其實可能也是必須的可是我們還是應該要先很清楚的知道我們到底要如何提升他的作戰能力因為國軍建制無人機是為了作戰而不是為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5035.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5039.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
要建立廠商的產能或者要創造市場規模因為剛剛有提到包括紙製的因為如果說已經拿來做這樣的一個可以做無人載具那他不管是潮濕或什麼對他應該影響不大我們希望我們應該是全面性的去理解所有的他可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5058.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5075.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
它可以產生的這樣子的一個不管材質也好因為像之前在攻擊俄羅斯的那個軍艦那個無人艇其實它的造價越來越低它就是因為它的本身的材質也一直在精進當中所以我們如果要做這種大 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5075.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5101.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
大量的產製然後作為我們未來非常重要的一個採購的一個方向我想其實包括它的價格都是一個很重要的考量因為我們想要打造地獄無人機的地獄型的戰場所以其實這個對我們來說價格也是一個非常重要的因為我們還是希望國防預算可以好好的去珍惜那今天在報告裡面針對國軍構建無人機部隊的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5102.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5107.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
近年國軍除了在113年到117年他分別籌貨了3200多架這樣子的無人機這個都是軍用商規的總經費高達56億8798萬那114年又向美軍採購了將近千餘架不管是對人或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5128.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5135.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
就是人員殺傷型的還是反裝甲型的大概也有17他的那個絕標金額也將近53億左右因為這是軍購的然後這個也大概有千餘價另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5144.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5162.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們軍備局在今年又公告下一輪有將近五萬架有四萬多軍用商規無人機的標案甲乙丙丁物五類無人機規劃在一百一十五年到一百一十六年兩年的時間要採購標案金額上看新台幣五百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5163.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5183.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以加上過去國軍也已經委託中科院製造的或者像美軍購的各型中原型的軍規型無人機例如紅准或者瑞淵或者MQ-9再加上各軍種單位比如說像政戰局也都有自行購置很多的無人機所以它整體的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5185.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5201.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
非常龐大就我們剛剛講的這樣他的數量是非常龐大的所以我想請教這幾輪無人機的建制他的主要目標是為了迅速要達到一個數量還是要取代過去我們所購買的商軍規的無人機以目前這麼大量的採購我們的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5208.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5224.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
跟委員報告我想我們現在要採購五型大概就是分成沉浸式的投彈式的中程的自殺式跟小型自殺式還有濱海艦艇型的這五款的無人機那都是要為了符合我們的防衛的一個作戰需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5224.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5228.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
對部長因為我們有打樁編訊用嘛你今天如果要採購這樣我們剛剛有提到我們過去也有採購很多那現在未來要採購的也非常多而且在短期之內你要採購的數量很多當然有兼徵有供給或者你有其他的陸用海上各個運用的模式不一樣沒有錯可是我們要問的是你要這麼大的數量在很短期的時間之內那你的庫儲 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5254.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5257.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
你的所有的準則叫飯都已經就緒了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5260.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5285.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
轉折交換的部分是不是由作機師來說一下委員好我是作機師次長同委員剛剛所提示的事項就是先從作戰運用需求作戰運用規劃來去做相關的籌購那同時間我們在作戰需求裡面把作戰運用規劃完了之後會針對需求的事項比如說作戰運用的部署部隊的編組編制以及他配付 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5285.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5308.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那以及用分批採購的方式來去逐步建立都完成了嗎是 都已經有相關的規劃分批逐步是什麼意思報比說兼徵型的他做兼徵的運用從剛剛報我們有聯戰然後戰術跟戰鬥不同層級那並且考量俄烏戰爭當中現在每個月大概都要18萬架以上的無人機在戰場上的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5309.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5336.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那因此我們當然所以我們是要彌補數量我們這麼短期要花到500億的預算其實主要是要彌補那個數量是不是你的意思是不是這樣我們是從基礎開始建置也包含考量到剛剛所報告的我們也考量國內國外的現有的科技上的發展以及我們國內可自製籌貨的方式來去逐步建置所以可以看到從前幾年從不管是偽製的這個中科院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5336.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5338.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我知道我的問題你可能沒有清楚我剛剛說打樁邊訊用嘛你一次買那麼多因為其實無人機跟科技產品一樣它跟手機一樣今天你如果一次買太多它可能兩年後就要淘汰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5352.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5355.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
因為它不斷有新的它就是一個科技的產品而且現在不斷創新它是很迅速的所以其實我們現在要問的是你一次編這麼多的運算買這麼大的量到底是什麼目的因為我們目前我們的國軍大概是五萬的人力你扣掉庫儲的部分你作戰的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5374.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5389.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
到底要建置到多大的規模這個國防部自己必須要知道啊那你才知道要買多少啊我先請教一下小型無人機是屬於裝備還是彈藥幫我們把它歸類為消耗品什麼叫消耗品是裝備還是彈藥是彈藥是彈藥你兼爭的呢兼爭型的是裝備所以有裝備跟彈藥嗎那你的配比是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5402.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5411.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
按照作戰剛剛有跟委員報告前面說明的三個階段他會依照三個階段不同的階段我們簡單來說因為你有裝備跟彈藥因為如果是美軍他是把它當成彈藥可是我們也買了非常多艱增型的所以其實就國軍哪些部隊會需要有艱增的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5427.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5429.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
你需要多少編製因為我們現在要知道說你要買這麼多那你的編製到底是什麼你到底編好了沒我們現在結合有編製好了嗎這個是隨著整體的規劃按照裝備籌貨來去建置裝備編程的期程跟著部隊編程的期程你怎麼不是先先編你有編製以後才知道你要用多少啊你現在是說你先籌貨了以後才去編現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5456.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5469.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
包委員那個針對小型無人 尖針型無人機的部分我們就編裝的角度來看主要是從班以上的單位從中間超過的人我們賦予他另外一項專長並不是再多編一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5472.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5474.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
因為我知道你是賦予他專長可是有多少人會具備這樣的專長或需要這樣的專長剛剛你說每一個人都要因為那是天方夜譚你現在要訓練到每一個人都要你現階段你根本沒有辦法達到而且你買的東西不是讓每個人訓練用的所以這是我們希望你把它分清楚第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5494.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5511.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
就是我們如果說編制所以你編制好了嗎如果你這樣算編制好了那可能可以再到辦公室做一些初步的有個概念跟委員報告入軍推人人都是無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5512.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5529.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
操作員這個概念只是希望大家去學會但是就編裝的角度而言我們賦予特定的兵特定的操作人員他的專長那如果是屬於高端的比如影像分析員的這個部分我們就會在檢討編裝裡面賦予他情報之類另外所需的員額這個部分是我們在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5534.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5539.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
無人機發展過程當中我們知道啦因為我們現在就是說你在很短期你買那麼大量你到底是要給誰用怎麼用所以我們要確切知道的是這個部分因為你花了很多錢嘛那到時候我們現在就是像剛剛提到的如果像無人機它就跟手機一樣它是科技產品它不斷的翻新它有很多新的而且我們現在攻擊型的也好偵監型的也好它很容易受到干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5563.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5566.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
在二屋戰場上面其實最清楚的就是這個部分原來說很好的有非常強大功能的很快它馬上干擾以後完全沒有用它全部都掉下來所以我們買的到底要因應什麼樣的戰場環境要提升什麼樣的作戰能力是我們需要去做準備的我再請教一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5583.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5589.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
就這個部分如果說你一口氣買太多因為我們知道你現在到底要怎麼配置啊你說短中長期那為什麼要買這樣的數量我們看不出來你是怎麼樣去做配置的你如果是供給型的你至少就像可能像紅準啊或像我們標槍一樣啊你會有什麼樣的配置嘛不是每個人都會用對不對所以在這個部分包委員這個部分先跟你說明一下這個我們需求量的這個問題是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5610.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5621.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
美方已經針對我們整個防衛作案構想裡面各階段各單位所需要的消耗量先做一個規劃這第一點為什麼是美方幫我們做規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5623.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5651.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
不是美方幫我們最規劃雙方針對台海作戰環境的作戰需求我們做過評估之後我們去確定這個數量但是第二點我們要講的是策略的部分因應二屋戰爭這種我們已經發現他的確會快速的喪失的效能這個部分我們在預約的部分未來會把他的裝備疊帶以及其他必要能夠快速更換的這些零件來改變他裝備的性能是納在我們後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5651.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5655.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以我在這裡先提醒因為我們一次買那麼多你雖然是分年獲得可是你如果一次五年那你第五年拿到的雖然是看起來是新的可是它規格就是五年前的這是我們第一個要提醒的第二個就是無人機它不僅僅是機體它電池也是主要的一個重要成本我想要請教目前我們無人機是怎麼搭配電池當你在採購的時候電池怎麼搭配 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5681.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5701.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
跟委員來做一個報告剛剛委員的指導是非常正確就是因為迭代所以我們的採購都是以兩年像我們蘋果手機一年有迭代一次像今年17出來所以我們就是依照委員你這個想法我們也知道科技的創新是日新月異我們關係到迭代所以我們兩年會約 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5703.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5708.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
至於每年的得標的廠商要對我們去做新的提升現在是兩年你說500億這個因為你迅速買很多可是你剛剛我們第一個提到的是113年到177年籌貨的那些它就是五年我現在問的是還包括因為我們現在是先提醒就是它疊帶其實是很迅速的如果你把它用在你不能一次買太多如果它疊帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5726.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5731.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
結果你一次買500億兩年以後它已經是落後的你又要再編500億1000億來買嗎這個我們目前希望先看到這個部分如果你知道它是迭代的它是一個科技的它軟體需要隨時更新它可能需要受到很多干擾條件你必須要再怎麼樣的去加強改善的時候其實你一次買太多的量其實是不對所以我們在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5752.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5775.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
剛剛提到的我們再把電池說完就是我們在搭配的時候你買無人機電池怎麼搭配電池都已經我們的標約裡面都要把它做一個公版的一個標準化所謂的公版標準化是民用的嗎民用軍用不是我現在我們先說你怎麼搭配比如說你買無人機你要搭配多少電池 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5776.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5799.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
一個電池裡面當然我們一個無人機會你在採購裡面因為你現在就已經要買了嘛你買無人機電池怎麼搭配因為沒有電池你就飛不起來嘛一架飛機當然是有它配備的標準電池那就是一個你的配比是多少配比是一架無人機就是搭配像FPP就是一個無人機你的手機你一支手機你會有幾個電池一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5801.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5818.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我现在目前以我个人的习惯就是一个你觉得大家会有多少作战会有多少一个电池可以有多少所以我现在问的就是它的配比就是你买无人机你搭配的电池数量是什么配的因为电池跟委员报告电池是有寿命的所以我们会有一定的周转量 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5820.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5823.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
你顯然沒有聽懂我的意思你現在要買的時候你的電池要怎麼搭配你不會只有一比一因為電池的消耗其實是非常快速的再加上你現在顯然你們還沒有有具體的規劃所以你大概也答不出來那我們希望你有確切的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5839.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5846.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
答案以後提供書面資料另外就是電池的部分我要請教的是電池你是用什麼樣的不會是廠商獨規吧比如說你跟這一家廠商買就跟我們所有現在規定的手機的電池一樣就大家都通用的對不對不會像以前你的接口像iPhone它就只能用它的電池其他都不能用不會是買這樣的電池不會在這裡確定嗎好那就這個部分我們希望後續有什麼樣的更完整的規劃提供書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5870.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5891.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
跟委員報告我想剛剛五型的這個無人機它的數量不一那剛剛講比如說濱海健身型的無人機我們的數量就不會太多那FPV的部分可能數量會多但是我們還是會注意到就是說要迭代創新迭代創新的意思就是說在一個共規的情況之下我們會用軟體來驅動讓它做迭代的創新大概以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5892.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5915.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
對 迭代因為你如果說軟體不是所有的都可以這樣用啦當然這個是要考量到的如果已經有考量到它未來軟體的更新那當然是我們可能應該要走的方向另外就是我剛剛講的電池電池在無人機如果會使用的都非常清楚電池非常重要而且它電池它的消耗是非常快速的然後它需要常常換所以你不可能1比1你的電池 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5918.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5933.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
如果是這樣還蠻落後的喔你才只有一顆電池然後你把它套用在這個上面所以如果是軍備局要做的準備這樣顯然是不合格所以我們希望你們可以有更周全的資料再提供好不好 謝謝謝謝馬委員質詢下面我們請林楚英委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5949.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5954.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請顧立雄部長那麼其他列席的官員如果有需要補充的請自行上台是林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5962.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5987.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
部長早今天呢我們當然就是針對我們整個所謂的無人機的相關的這種所謂無人載具投入的這樣的一個專案報告那麼不知道部長是不是知道這兩天有關於在野黨委員已經認為就是有關於我們的國防預算的當中如果說是超過GDP3%的話那麼他們打算要把它砍掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5988.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6011.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那麼如果說以我們現在無人機的部分的話我在這個公開的這個網站上面看到了就是現在有一筆反制無人機的系統但是呢在公告上面說接下來的預算是使用115年到117年的特別預算言下之意這是公告在先喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6012.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6015.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我想賴清德總統在國慶演說當中說要打造台灣之盾的這個構想要建立反飛彈反飛機跟反無人機的多層防護這個部分本席是非常贊同的但是我想馬上這個公告一出來就有媒體開始報導了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6029.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6037.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
他就說這個是不是一個不存在的預算但是先把這樣的一個採購的部分公告出來了那因為我其實在10月20號的質詢當中當時也問過了顧部長那麼希望能夠了解現在到底我們在所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6046.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6062.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
特別預算尤其是台灣之盾的這個預算當中到底如何的來使用當時就有回覆說希望在年底之前提出這樣的預算那麼我知道其實對於國防的部分全民都支持但是在預算如何的使用跟如何配比 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6063.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6091.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
的時候其實民眾通常是只知其一不知其二我很希望利用等一下的10分鐘的時間讓全民的去了解到底我們的預算是如何的來做使用以及我們到底有沒有需要這樣的特別預算因為畢竟這個預算如果年底要提出來而現在在野黨委員也說了超過GT3%以上的他就覺得太多了那如果是這樣劍指特別預算的時候那我們要好好的先說明一下首先第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6092.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6102.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
在這樣的公告過程當中只是把這個所謂未來所需要的需求然後先提出來那麼這個合不合乎我們現在一般的採購流程跟規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6104.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6129.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
鮑委員陸軍參謀長向您報告第一個在這個您所提列的這個可吸食無人機反制系統它目前是在11月3號做的一個公開閱覽這是符合也是依據政府採購法第34條因為它是超過一個1億元以上那為了要有資訊透明化那公開閱覽它並不等同正式的招標文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6129.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6157.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那它最主要是在一個商情的跟規格的一個回饋那作為未來在修製招標文件的時候避免廠商疑議讓正式的預算獲付以後可以如期的貨裝那最主要委員也看到了這個紅線也幫我們框起來了這個案子它是寫是奉核後再行補助也就是說這個是我們依照我們的有這樣的需求我們要先去了解商情跟相關的規格得到回饋 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6160.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6177.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
并没有目前还没有相关的所以就是一个预告公告然后我们国军有这样的需求跟建制的计划然后就是让这个厂商能够先提前做准备但是预算已经先希望匡列在那里期望能够 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6179.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6184.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
獲得好 那沒問題我們就來看一下這個所謂反制無人機的系統到底是什麼其實本席也非常的好奇我就特別去找了一下過去的新聞我們來看看其實真的我們不能讓國軍再當摩登原始人本席特別讀了一些相關的報告包括今年7月的時候我們漢光41號演習也特別都提到了有關無人機的反制因為隨著現在所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6206.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6219.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
人口老化 然後人口稀少無人所謂建制的這樣的設備其實是非常的重要在訪問上非常重要但是從2022年當時在金門大膽島我們看到我們的官兵用石頭去驅離這個無人機到2024年的4月8號的時候我們現在開始用干擾槍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6225.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6240.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
但是干擾腔就是人的操作對不對那這就跟勢力有關了我眼睛好一點的看得遠一點我眼睛差的我可能近在咫尺都來不及反應所以我想請問的是以目前我們要投入96億的預算來做所謂的這個反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6245.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6263.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
無人機的這樣的系統那目前是2025年也就是今年年底會完成26套那麼這26套夠用嗎那麼這26套為什麼這個現在需要另外開一個剛剛我前面講的特別預算的標案要來花96億 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6266.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6290.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
包委員這個26套也就是有鑒於您也是圖示上面過去我們對於外離島他對我們實施的一個民用無人機的侵擾以及遂行認知作戰那我們我們也目前第一個是已經配發了相關的總共總共是232支的這個干擾槍對那包含到本外島那這次已經給外島 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6291.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6300.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那但是甘老鄉畢竟如委員所說的它是要靠目視才可以我們還是要靠科技所以這26套它是以外島地主為主因為外島它很多離島現在這26套已經陸續都已經交建已經裝備了嗎整個還在建案和驗收的程序那26套如何來做配置因為我們剛剛看到的這個新聞都是以外離島為主嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6318.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6346.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
对 那么在外离岛跟本岛之间这26套如何来使用这个案子的26套它其实是9.8亿那它主要就是由外离岛为主那刚刚委员所讲的这个96亿可惜是这个它主要是未来在我们的这些重要的防护的指挥所还有至于佩服的单位我这边就还 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6346.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6361.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
好如果是屬於機密的部分可以不用說明但是為什麼本席會特別想要利用這個時候來詢問的原因很簡單對於一般民眾來講看到這樣的新聞他會同意建制因為這覺得就是摩登原始人啊怎麼會來到了2025年的時候我第一2022年我用石頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6365.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6368.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我2024年的時候我用干擾槍可是干擾槍的時候來不及對不對這跟個人的反應跟個人的勢力有關所以民眾會支持所以我相信取得這26套那麼有其必要性但是接下來當一般的民眾看到是96億的時候雖然預算還沒有出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6385.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6394.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
但是如果今天沒有一個清楚的說明跟合理的說明的時候因為本席也讀到一些其他的報導會講說 哎呀 這個外離島這麼小哪裡需要到26套一半的數量就夠了免得分佈得太密集彼此還會互相干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6405.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6428.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以本席不是一個所謂武器專家或者是國防專家但是我站在一個全民的視角我覺得我拿出這個例子給你做解釋而你們就必須要在這個時間點上面讓全民知道有其必要性不然馬上就會講說26套啊外離島這麼小你通通都放在外離島那你就夠啦那接下來還需要96億嗎您說這個是8億多不到9億的預算嘛對不對所以我想要給您時間來回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6434.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6452.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
跟委員報告其實就是說有三件一個是這個UDS這個部分這個是由空軍統建的這剛剛已經說明了那剛剛您講的26套這個是主要也是外離島為主但是也不限於外離島主要以外離島為主這個是陸軍統建的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6453.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6468.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那另外你講的一個那種可惜式的無人機反制用這個部隊在運用的那這個是我們要等到我們現在只是在做一個傷情的偵詢那要等到獲付預算以後才能夠正式進行所以其實是三個不同的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6469.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6496.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那空軍建制當然剛剛也提到我想也不適合去講說太明確地點但主要是為了這個它有固定跟機動的可以講用途就好而不是說木建在哪裡為了基地等等這樣子他剛剛參謀長已經講了那這個部分是一個那外離島的這個部分就是剛剛取代就是說現在用木式的這個方法好像沒有辦法能夠精準的去幕後到這個無人機然後把它進行做一個干擾的這個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6498.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6508.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那所以這個要運用這個外離島無人機的繁殖系統那至於可吸射當然就更進一步了這個是另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6509.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6531.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我們希望能夠達到這個對於這個相關有關這些我們對於指揮所等等還有部隊的這些反制無人機避免被他們攻擊的這個目的好 因為本席會特別提出來是我們身為立法委員我們對於預算有其監督的責任那麼同樣的我相信透過質詢台上我們才會知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6532.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6549.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
已經對外公告但是其實預算都還沒有核定下來的時候給你們多一點的解釋也有機會讓全民了解每一套的所謂無人機的反制的相關的系統用在什麼樣的地方跟有其必要性至於用在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6551.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6552.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這是事涉機密也是事涉國安我們不會要求但是每一套就像剛剛部長所講的它的用途不一樣那這個必須要拆分清楚否則糊在一起的時候就很容易被誤導那當然接下來我要問的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6567.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6577.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
首先當然我也要非常感謝這一次陸海空軍的這些弟兄們在馬太安溪艷色湖的這個混化家傷風災當中給予這樣的協助那麼當然部長其實也表揚了101位的軍官頒予他們紀念章那麼我們其實也知道這一次國軍第一時間是突動了摩羯戰術以進城的無人機搭配特戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6591.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6606.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
對的操作微型無人機在道路中斷跟地形受限的情況之下可以立即回傳相關的影像跟河口的監態的動態系統來協助地方上做救災的部分喔那麼當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6607.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6610.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我覺得無人機這個戰時的使用都是希望不要發生但是平時的救災反而會更需要所以這個救災視同作戰本席是非常同意但是我們知道現在無人機上剛剛的報告當中有堅真型戰術型跟攻擊型還有現在所謂微型商規等等那麼在這樣的人力跟編組當中我們現在是不是已經有一個完整的那邊的統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6635.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6651.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
而在面對整體的像這一次馬太安的救災當中其實顯示了一個重點就是怎麼樣在救災過程當中跟地方政府或者是前進指揮所或者是整個災防中心的搭配我相信無人機它發揮了非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6651.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6664.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
功能在裡面那麼在經過這一次的這個所謂不論是花家超風災或是馬太安艷澀湖的相關的救災之後有沒有進一步的思考未來這種所謂的臨時編組可以變成是有其計劃性的就是必要性的這種所謂雖然是任務但是有它的協助的SOP還是說其實事實上現在就已經建構了這樣的SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6678.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6697.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
謝謝委員 我是座議事長 跟委員做說明就在這兩 在這個 煙色湖的救災活動當中我們已經有運用部隊現在的編組的無人機包含了這個 尖針型 戰術進程以及圍型這包含了海軍跟陸軍的各型無人機都結合它部隊的 這個救災部隊的編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6700.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6718.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
按照他分配的責任分別去執行整個區域的監偵或者是人命搜救搜索的這個任務那我們的災防救編組呢也是依照災防區的劃分就同剛剛委員所知道我們是在前線會開設前進指揮所那由這個住案區的指揮官來去做整個救災責任區的劃分那依照救災責任區的劃分他會編組徵收的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6720.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6736.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
然後做整個人命搜救的包含環境的整理以及相應的後勤資源等等這都會做整體的編組跟規劃那未來無人機隨著逐次的貨裝健全的部署的部隊之後當然會有更廣泛的運用以上說明好 我覺得像這個也是非常重要的參謀長補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6738.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6753.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
消防委員補充報告除了剛剛次長報告的事實上我們也整合我們也依災區的需求整合了民間的這個更大型的無人機是由我們的化學兵來提供藥劑和依照需要噴灑的地方實施一個空中的消除成效也非常良好 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6754.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6776.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好 這個本席是認為接下來因為真的所謂大自然的變化極端氣候的關係真的會常常出現一些我們過去沒有遇到的這樣的天氣的氣候的狀況那麼所以說有關於救災資源機制這個部分我覺得可以把它建立跟納入我覺得這個也是真的暫時出動但平時協助也算是一種訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6779.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6787.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我想無聯機的運用隨著我們陸續在貨裝應該會更有一個擴大的運用救災當然也是其中的一環謝謝 辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6792.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6797.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝 剛剛林委員拿出來的圖片2024年的干擾槍 當時在審預算的時候大家是怎麼說的 那是2024年是去年 現在已經是變成落後的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6813.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6826.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
請大家把它拿出來看所以你們在編預算要預算的時候都說哇這個非常需要干擾槍當時大家是怎麼說的還有反制系統到現在還沒有拿到我們請王定宇委員上台質詢我們請軍令系統我們副參謀總長請副參謀總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6842.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6849.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那其他有關不管是無人機或反制無人機不管是科研、戰規相關的就需要補充可以上來補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6853.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6874.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個黃上將我為什麼請你上來因為你們是用這些東西的單位在參謀本部將來各個作戰單位你們是使用無人機或者使用反制無人機的單位目前不管是商規或軍規無人機在軍事用途上他最新的趨勢最新的科技在戰場實際運用上是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6877.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6900.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
委員好 我是副總長執行官 跟您做個報告實際上一方面是當初他設計的時候我們大家所想要他的在站場的運用簡單來講 我實際上就是說興趣是什麼我想有一部分我的看法跟馬委員差距不遠有時候我們當下沒有不行可是我們明知道半個月之後或三個月之後他就變成沒用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6901.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6922.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
或者像曾經紅極一時的彈簧刀現在在烏克蘭戰場上效果不好因為你會用人家也會反制你嘛所以我現在要問你的是就目前在參謀本部你們了解起來軍事用途的無人機最新的發展趨勢這個Cutting Edge最新的這個趨勢是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6923.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6947.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
其他單位也補充 我不知道考試很可能後續會導入AI智慧的運用他到空中之後他可以自行辯證目標並且分析用AI之後用AI我要用干擾的方式有沒有可能當然也有可能所以說他在抗干擾的技術甚至有部分現在在戰場上運用已經導入了光纖導引等等我提這個點我們這不是研討會 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6949.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6976.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我看到我們要買四萬五千架當然現在拉下來重新思考了四萬五千架的無人機如果我們開的是現在熟知的規格等你招標完成那個通通落伍了幾十億幾百億它就變成沒用錢的損失浪費我認為還是小喔最怕的是什麼安慰劑效用就是我以為我有了我以為我有這個戰力了真正在打的時候它變無用 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6977.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7007.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那個更危險所以現在無人機的新科技的導入他的新趨勢第一個是AI的運用GPS deny就是沒有GPS的環境下他能夠飛行或者沒有導引的狀況下他能夠去處理這個大概現在是無人機的方向當時為了對抗干擾你看烏克蘭戰場一大堆光纖的尾巴那個線拉在屁股後面可是不是好方法現在慢慢就沒了為什麼我順著線就可以打掉那個飛手所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7008.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7021.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
不管是AI GPS或者是群工或者一台主機帶著一群我根本我們的飛手訓練現在有什麼Level 1到Level 5將來我下指令圖面給他他就自己出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7022.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7035.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我上次問一個在國防展的他說訓練三分鐘看得懂這幾個字下指令就好了跟現在我們還要訓練那個穩定度我那時候看呂坤修上將在那邊操控也許再過三個季節再過幾個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7039.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7063.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個不一樣了所以這個不是國軍的問題我們國軍是強求穩定的發展所以我要有五年兵診我裝備出來我要有教範我要有訓練計畫訓練計畫之後我每一個中心要放什麼樣的教官放什麼樣的教科書這個是我們國軍既有的架構可是現在變化很快當你建構好了花了大錢簽了約要人家來訓練的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7065.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7081.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
下個趨勢可能非手不用了他用的是下指令的方式像海馬仕坐標按一按三分鐘就學會了所以我第一個命題要請教就目前參謀本部在思考這些所有的軍事用途的文機要不要納入稀土 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7083.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7104.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
報委員C2的部分本來就是無人機系統不管是反制或者是要運用的它要不要納入你們三棟裡面我們軍團要不要納入我們的Control Command這C2裡面這部分已經在納入了它當然分成不同層級的運用的無人機放在不同的指管層級所以我們採購的無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7105.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7135.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
你當手榴彈用的就飛幾公里去把錢炸掉了那個大概指揮鏈不一樣但我的意思我看到你們開出來規格都沒有考慮C2你沒有納入指管那飛出去打到誰很麻煩欸報委員指管基本上來講有一部分都是大範圍運用的那個都已經在本來在他的兼增跟他的這個指管系統裡頭都已經整合在我們的指管裡頭了我透過質詢那個副參謀總長跟我們讓官方了解說我們要採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7136.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7151.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
都要 我認為是應該要盡快給你們運算盡快支持你們建構 本席是支持甚至於呢 現在不是軍方需要捷運需要 高鐵需要核電廠需要 電廠需要都需要 但是做對才不會浪費錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7152.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7172.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
不是只單獨便宜我單獨便宜買了安慰劑直接吃下去夠心命好像沒問題真正要用的時候不能用嘛所以我剛才講的納入只管我希望在未來我們無人機採購的時候你要有這些啊他要能夠跟誰對話他要能夠被誰看見否則不要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7173.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7188.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
他國的友軍我們自己的國軍裡面的友軍都要擔心這個飛出去撞到誰會被打到民船無人船我只貪圖便宜好像便宜很好用就要出去跟自殺炸彈客一樣到處亂跑你沒有納入職管 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7189.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7212.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
你怎麼去監偵他你怎麼去處理這是我要講的第一件事情我不曉得這個黃三江你看吧委員這部分是委員的指導的確是非常正確的不過我們現在現在無人機現在已經引用進來的規劃包含這個從高階的無人機一直到部隊基本階層使用的無人機軍規的大概沒問題我現在講是商規那手上放上來就飛出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7212.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7235.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以說那個作戰單位成績他們在因為這個部分是例如說這個分散食指管並且交給任務室指揮我們會運用我們正常例如說TAC系統我們直接交付到基礎的單位我們現在的無人機全部都可以跟TAC系統連線嗎我們現在TAC系統實際上是配付給個人跟部隊的這個指揮官到達前線之後可以配付到最基本的連級甚至連級以下的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7237.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7251.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
參謀本部在用兵 你是軍令單位我們現在採購的所有無人機不管是砲兵單位在用的海軍陸戰隊在用的在你們的指管系統裡面都看得到 指揮得到我們會透過不同的系統去一直指揮到最基層用無線電 那個太慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7254.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7255.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
現在是我們正常的正常的指管體系裡頭採購的新的指管裝備和通信系統就已經可以做到這個地步了 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7276.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7288.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
當然是陸海空軍整體的考量我們現在陸軍本身指管系統都不太有了你可以無人機納入我們現在是建立新的我們不要講好聽話我覺得不足我支持你預算 補足來我們陸軍那個部隊從A點到B點還在動拐動動 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7295.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7323.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
Check 通報執行官那個不叫那個跟我們一般的command control不一樣耶實際上這次在我們這個光復箱救災裡頭我們已經把這些新的這個你們有跟消防各方面那個TAK那個整合都已經納入運用了第一個我建議我們這是一個挑戰我再強調一次我沒有說誰對誰錯我也不懂全部我這次去台美國防會議我也問他這個問題到底無人機的標案要怎麼寫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7324.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7326.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我根據現有成熟的寫出來的標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7327.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7355.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
招標那一刻他就落伍了如果90億100億丟下去不是國軍要浪費啊這是一個趨勢我覺得在立法院我不會去指責你們浪費因為這是一個新的樣態所以第一個新科技前緣科技的能力怎麼寫在標案裡面可是又因為是前緣科技很容易只有他有別人都沒有我怎麼樣透過採購法規的保障避免動不動被人家講你只有一家有在賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7356.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7376.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那就他最好 我當然只有那家在那邊 懂我意思嗎就是說要避免圖利又要買到最新的在法規面這個採購案部長是法律專家在建案之前這個要思考清楚第三個 以參謀本部的角度無人機的運用或反制無人機的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7378.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7396.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
每個單位都一樣嗎那當然需求也不一樣當然依照各部隊他的任務和屬性的不同會有相當的差異黃志偉上將是空軍嘛是你是我們空軍的長官我就問你反制無人機如果在機場你們第一個要考量什麼他會不會干擾吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7397.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7424.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
除了機場本身是不會被監偵或者被進來攻擊之外另外我們這個進出的航路以及航空機飛行的機遇會不會受到影響我現在裝一個無人機的反制系統我裝在列嶼 裝在左營軍港或者我們既得艦上面裝在我們這個坑子口 裝在龍鋼大操場裝在我們的這個自航基地這個反制無人機的標準會一樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7425.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7441.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
當然不一樣這個是又牽扯到我們國軍現在作戰的頻譜管理的問題一個是頻譜管理問題另外一個美國在反制無人機至少我看到空軍都要求至少至少要FAA approved |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7442.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7462.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
不用certificate就是說美國的航空運用的核准就是要避免干擾航道的通訊所以我剛才只提的就是說無人機的運用我砲兵我以前用觀測的用報座標的火力那個效果效率設打一門之後再來做校正 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7462.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7480.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那個時代過了現在可能無人機座標提供第一門打中了兩分鐘內我就要拔腿就跑了以免被反擊嘛那我透過這樣的運用我減少兵員編制調整我的邊線筆才不會永遠不夠所以他需要的無人機不一樣跟我海軍陸戰隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7482.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7497.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
在面對有鹽分的有水分的地方他用的也不一樣所以我這一個部分要提的是國軍的標案怎麼可能甲乙丙丁物五種買四萬五千台發下去你是要各單位自己拿蘿賴吧在那邊調整自己的需求嗎這不對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7501.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7525.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
來 請說實際上我們在 剛才部長也針對這個問題也做過回答我們在未來的這個購案裡頭實際上已考慮到這個迭代變換的需求所以說是分年採購在這個採購上面這個如果有新的技術也有更新上面的這個規格的限制因為你們是用兵單位是的我建議你們現在是買方市場我一樣買四萬五千架我在立法院的態度預算我認為應該支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7528.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7555.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
預算不是在算達到幾%幾%啦那個GDP3%5%我認為不應該這樣算而是我們有沒有需求需求來自於敵情的威脅當中共有原火部隊我就要思考面對長城火箭我要怎麼處理當中共的無人機侵擾越來越多我就要思考我要哪些類型的反制無人機的做法在平時我不能硬殺那軟殺無法的時候該怎麼處理我們的需求堆疊起來的國防預算是幾%就幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7557.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7586.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
給國軍好的待遇也要給國軍好的裝備而提供好的裝備才是我們軍事採購的第一優先發展國安產業是附加價值不能本末倒置我花了國防預算就要買給國軍對的東西而對的東西可以帶動國內產業的發展這是好事情可是我不能為了發展產業給國軍次等品說沒關係你先用我把市場做大起來如果買得到買不到當然我們就自己研製買得到的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7587.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7604.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
花錢要買給國軍最好的因為那是生命攸關的事情所以我剛才講的不管是前沿科技的運用AI等等納入指管是一個關鍵C2這要納入第三個我希望的是一樣四萬五千架搞不好有一百個規格那我就給你掌聲鼓勵了 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7606.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7633.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這一個台南空軍基地需要的規格是這種這一個在樂山鋪路爪需要的規格是這個在太平島上需要的規格是這個不同的需求不同的作戰環境他應該有不同的規格現在在無人機其實已經慢慢走向買方市場客製化單位需求化當然我們不會弄到那麼細大的模組而不是甲乙比丁物這麼大的量然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7635.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7644.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我要請教你們先請我請部長我最後請教三個問題我們現在無人機反制系統要買635套 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7649.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7666.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我剛才問到問題部長應該知道我接下來要問什麼了這635套96億我個人認為無人機反制應該加速盡快建制起來否則像烏克蘭對俄羅斯的蜘蛛網行動我們現在台灣的空軍機場沒有一個防得住 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7667.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7687.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們基地像我台南機場旁邊都民設我租一個民房還不用貨櫃車勒我在裡面藏了二三十台無人機飛出去管你IDF還是F16先炸掉了所以我們的無人機的防制的設施確實是極度的脆弱要趕快建立我贊成但是還是那句話要做對來 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7689.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7702.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
給預算要做對的事情所以第一個能不能對抗新的趨勢現在你們建的案一口氣買這一個635套我幫你規格是什麼我看到你們只想要有干擾啦要有takeover |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7704.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7719.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
takeover這個要跟資料庫有關資料庫的擴充性以及它對於新的無導引的AI的群工的你們這些一口氣買這麼多套他們有沒有這樣的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7720.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7743.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
包委員我簡單補充這個有關於這個系統我們的期望也是依照二屋戰爭的經驗我們希望它至少達成三大功能第一個是能夠自動徵收自動指引第二個同時能夠干擾多批次多架式的無人機跟現在的UDS的這種干擾少數不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7744.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7769.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
時間的關係齁我還要提醒部長各單位反制無人機需求會不一樣環境的限制也會不一樣千萬不要一個規格買一堆然後到時候不合用一堆浪費我又要重新買一堆無人機反制無人機軍用確實需要預算確實該支持給你們但是當你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7770.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7789.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
定標案的規格的時候要思考它的科技前緣性它的AI的導入新進科技的導入以及各單位需求的不同特別是環境的不同陸海控就不一樣了不要說系到各部隊然後最後我提醒陸軍你們我今天本來要問你們天山營區阿兵哥沒有水可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7790.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7807.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
要解決 你不能不解決早上都不能刷牙開什麼玩笑因為他是那個管路木刀沒關係 這個問題我只是提醒這件事情天山盈區 連早上都不能刷牙沒有水這件事情要解決如果需要協調地方自來水供應單位我幫你們一起來協調是 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7828.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7831.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝主席 有請顧部長 謝謝請顧部長部長好今天最主要是跟無人機的部件策略有關係我先從這邊問起因為這就是大概前陣子的事情而已比利時的空軍基地也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7853.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7876.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
遭到這一個無人機的騷擾他們有兩天他們第一天是小型的無人機先過去偵測偵測頻率然後知道頻率之後第二天再用這一個大型無人機騷擾他第二天的時候就導致因為他第一天已經先去測過了所以導致第二天這一個要用干擾器要去影響他的時候結果這個比利時這邊就失敗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7876.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7897.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那所以這邊呢就是第一個問題就是說這一個它比較特別就在於說我們現在面臨到這個所謂的灰色地帶作戰那過往我們都遇到的都是這個從中國過來的一些騷擾不管是從海域 從空軍但像比利時這個遇到的它就是直接是在境內當然它到底是原因什麼這個我們並不是那麼清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7898.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7907.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
但是有兩個問題就是第一個就是像這種有第一天 第二天藉由這樣的一個方式去破壞干擾系統那目前我們應對的方式是什麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7916.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7931.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
鮑委員我是作息室的市長當然整體無人機的防禦是整體性的考量如同剛剛委員講我們有主動被動軟煞跟硬煞的作為因此在機場除了這個主動的偵測也有被動的偵測那針對它的頻段也區分為訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7935.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7961.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
戰備 商用等各式的評斷那會做依照當時的狀況去做彈性上的調整對 這個看起來是屬於這種跟商用有關的這種干擾但是我們想知道的事情就是說因為這比較新型態嘛 對不對就是說它分成兩天第一天先把它偵測然後偵測完之後呢第二天讓你很難以干擾那這個事情如果我們遇到的話呢我們的比如說我們的SOP的作為是什麼我們不需要詳細但是我們有沒有這樣的一些規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7963.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7992.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
包委員就是從前面我們以前所訂定部隊的反應處置機制就是所謂的識別監控告警通報然後再來是驅離以及後續的相關的監控作為它是有一個部隊應處的規範這個是本來就有的嘛對 本來就有這個規範但我的意思就是說我們應該要把這種比較新型態的這種干擾放進來就是說因為它的方式變得不一樣然後第二個就是說像你剛剛講到比如說我們有偵測然後再來我們可能要做擊落等等之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7993.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8010.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
第一個我們偵測的這個範圍到底夠不夠我知道我們之前這一個我們中科院有一個說它這個預警可以到5公里的或者我們本來也有原來的本來就有4公里就是我們本來就有這些規劃對不對但是我們偵測之後我們的這個範圍到底跟我們的擊殺的範圍能不能合在一起這也是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8011.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8034.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
然後更不要講說就是後面這是這一個比利時的將軍他自己提到的在下面這邊他就講說第一個當時他們遇到這個事情的時候干擾器失效就是我剛剛講的它分成兩天第二個就是說因為畢竟附近就是有民宅因為它是空軍基地被騷擾如果是在基地內的話當然極洛對他們講比較沒有問題但有時候是在基地周圍就是跟我們講灰色地帶干擾一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8035.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8052.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
周圍的時候就要考量到一般的民眾可能會殘骸可能會導致有人受傷就是說那我們針對像後面這件事情我們有沒有相關的這些應處的方式假設今天是我們遇到了台灣很密集就是說附近有沒有這些所謂的有可能會影響到的這個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8053.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8079.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
抱怨我們整個無人機的防範如果在機場周邊的話其實我們會結合民航局的航警我們現在的偵測系統甚至能夠定位到操作者他所在的位置的柱子那因此可以通報所在地的警察或者是由機場的航警來去協助查緝那我們目前是用這種不管是用國軍自己的反制系統還有結合民航站的航警的這種查緝的方式來去做防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8080.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8102.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那剛剛委員指導的這個新型態的這種攻擊式的變化我們也持續在掌握未來納入突發狀況處置規定裡面來做持續的修訂以利部隊去做有效的應處這個突發狀況第一個就是突發狀況的這個處置規定他應該要再細緻化因為新型態的看起來太多了這只是就是近期的一個報導我看到之後就想說那如果台灣發生了該怎麼辦這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8102.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8126.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
但第二個就是你剛剛提到的因為有時候譬如說他不在基地內他在基地外然後你們可能在偵測的時候發現可能不管是操作者在哪裡等等之類的去通報我們的航警或者是通報我們的警察這個其實在我們前幾大概4月 5月 6月的時候有發生過這個其實我們私底下也已經問過你們一次了就是說在這個4 5 6月的時候有人在這個新竹的這個機場拍到這個無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8129.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8143.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那時候我們詢問之後發現它就是屬於我剛剛講的在基地外那在基地外這個時候的處理方式就是去通報警察但現在問題來就是那我們的警察有沒有足夠的設備去對應這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8153.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8179.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
都可以我是空軍參謀長對那針對您的這個問題我們在有好幾個機率都發生過在營外那警察的配備我們目前了解他跟我們一樣是有干擾槍的這個配備但是因為我們有做通報那有偵測到他的方位所以說警察大部分出去之後是以目視的方式來做一個搜索對就是說顯然他的設備可能還是不太夠對就算能量絕對不如國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8180.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8205.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以有時候就是變成灰色地帶的問題對方 我們不知道對方到底是誰對方到底是我們是內部的是在地協力者還是有人在玩飛機這種我們不知道但是如果今天對方的配備是夠好的我們警察這邊是不夠的話那顯然因為國軍因為國軍今天按照要塞堡壘法的規定有這個第一區第二區對不對結果你們在這一個範圍之外你們想說這個交給警察處理但警察這邊的配備可能是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8206.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8234.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
第一個配備不夠我們可以在譬如說我們在內政委會的時候我們可以請他在預算上面加強這還可以做但偵查這個部分就是情報交換這個部分就剛剛提到的中科院的可以到5公里可以到5公里就是說我們能不能夠協助就是說今天國軍能夠偵測的能夠一樣能夠分享給警察這個分享的系統是長什麼樣子至少你可以去補足他的不足所以這個補足的這個機制目前來講整體的規劃大概是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8235.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8245.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
有關這個我們把它講成區域聯防的這種整體規劃就是包含軍方 民方還有CIA重要關鍵基礎設施的這些我們正在把它規劃中會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8247.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8266.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好 那這個我們在這個我們有時間的話我們來討論一下這陣地的機制好不好因為剛剛委員長講的就是在基地附近我們考慮到對民財造成傷害目前有兩種技術我們也正在發展也會很快的引入第一個就是接管Takeover我直接接管它的控制權第二種就是用橋展 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8267.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8280.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
就是鏟腳的方式因為大部分是FPV它是旋翼式的我鏟腳它以後讓它失去動力總是用一個降落傘讓它緩降也不會對一般區域造成傷害這都是我們現有正在接觸和發展的技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8282.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8308.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個剛好就讓我想到就是說你剛剛講到這一個因為這個可惜式的這一次的這個案子其實也有講到這個接管那就是說你今天在入關你不管是我應該是有放在下一張就是說我們這一次這一個115年這一個陸軍司令部有一個這一個採購計畫清單這個是還沒有還沒有成這個是還沒有編入預算對不對就我所知這個應該還沒有還沒有 對但這個裡面在講到的地方其實就有剛剛你講到的這個takeover那 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8309.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8320.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
但是因為接管某種程度是需要一些資料庫的比對那現在我們我們在做這件事情的時候我們對於資料庫的比對資料庫的建置這件事情有沒有同步進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8322.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8344.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
後委員這個資料庫的建置是一定要同步進行而且要不斷持續去更新對 因為它如果沒有更新的話變成說你資料庫不足你資料庫不足你就做不到接管這件事情所以這個部分我們可能之後如果這個有成案的話這個會是我們釘的一個滿大的一個重點不然的話就等於說你有這個系統你有這個偵測的範圍就你要接管的時候你接管不了那就沒有任何意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8345.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8357.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好 那這個我後面因為這個我後面還有一些問題這個我晚點再講但是因為時間的關係我先問一下這個昨天這是另外一件事情就是靶場的問題因為我昨天剛好就是這個朋友跟我回報這個是桃園的市議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8360.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8385.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
桃園市议会他们几个议员他们在发言的时候就讲到说这一个中立龙岗要增建市内的靶场的问题这一个是看起来是确实本来那边因为那边本来就有基地可能会有一些靶场的训练有没有跟居民沟通什么这个我先摆在一边但是我在过程当中我看到当地的议员在讲说这搞不好这边以后就会有弹药库了 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8386.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8412.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
然後就把這個東西開始往外擴散擴散之後這個時候甚至是有人把它引用說以後國軍要這邊做彈藥庫我們以後這邊戰爭的時候我們就可能會被打我們要怎麼辦這個對我來講就是這是一個在地方上散播的謠言這個謠言很明顯的看起來會對國軍造成影響但是國軍有沒有辦法在第一時間因為這是在地方政府層級發生的事情但請問國軍對這件事情的回應是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8416.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8422.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
彈藥庫這件事情包委員沒有在這邊要建立彈藥庫的規劃這個也請六軍團持續的向桃園的這些議員還有里長來持續的做溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8432.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8452.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
對 因為我覺得當然溝通是有必要的這個是一定的但是因為如果說在前期的溝通假設是不足的時候你看地方的議員就會站在那邊我覺得這種謠言其實是很傷就是我們最近大家對於國軍的信心當然是越來越好這個國軍的形象等等之類的但是你看在地方上如果是這樣的謠言而且還是透過議員的口中這樣講出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8453.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8476.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那這個其實對這國軍如果沒有第一時間強力的回應說我們並沒有這樣的事情的話這個會造成問題所以拜託就是說這一類的事情以後這個不要說回報因為應該這個是要主動要知道說在地方上有沒有這樣的一些謠言在散播而這個謠言散播的時候有沒有有利的一個回擊我認為這個對國軍是非常重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8477.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8495.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
但是拉回來講就是我們回到我們不要 彈藥庫沒有但是靶場這件事情因為對附近的居民大概有幾萬人然後他怕說有噪音或什麼等等之類的那這件事情的溝通就那為什麼在那邊要設靶場那個靶場的重要性是什麼然後以及這個溝通的過程是什麼是我們可以稍微說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8498.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8501.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
包委員我也很了解在很多傳統的靶場它基本上還是有噪音還有也有可能流彈的風險所以我們參考世界各國訓練上的需要我們也朝向室內靶場的一個需求來建置當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8515.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8533.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
室內靶場它包含到全天候不受天候的效益而且更能增加這些訓練的時數所以基本上我們的確有規劃在我們自己的龍崗訓場上面去建置但是它先期的建案程序裡面必須先做一個可行性的評估我們現在做的階段就是有關於先期規劃的現在還在可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8538.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8557.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
大概要到明年的上半年底可行性評估出來這一段期間我們還是會就適時的現況持續的跟地方尊您的指導我們會持續的來做溝通說明因為可行性的評估如果現在還在做的話那過程當中第一個因為說真的根本就沒有彈藥庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8558.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8581.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以其實沒有那個恐懼如果只是單純的這個訓練這個照理說對國軍來講這天經地義這保衛國家所必要的一個訓練所以噪音的部分如果有居民的關注針對噪音的部分我看那個佔地那麼大如果室內靶場這個如果是做得好這個你說噪音我覺得可能也還好但是總之就是需要去溝通溝通完之後也可以阻止像類似的這個謠言的散播 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8581.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8603.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我想跟各位報告就是說第一個沒有任何興建彈藥庫的一個規劃這是第一點那第二點就是說就我跟陸軍了解就是說他要在明年六月底前要完成一個可行性評估那我們就這個可行性評估還要看他的報告是如何那另外就是說我們會持續跟地方來溝通協調那取得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8604.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8619.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
地方的理解我們當然也要兼顧整個戰備訓練跟民眾的權益這個我們會綜合來評估考量也就是說現在還沒有一個定案那就再拜託了謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝我們待會賴志寶委員諮詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8639.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8641.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
謝謝主席 我們是不是能夠有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8649.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8676.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這序位很好部長好今天我們的主題呢是跟無人機載具有關那當才很多的委員也針對無人機接下來96億的這個採購進行很多的這個詢問那我今天比較想問的事情是呢那有了無人機之後那我們另外與之相關的是關於人工智慧也就是AI的部分那包含是像在教養委員會他們也積極的在推動人工智慧基本法的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8677.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8687.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
在審查當中所以我想要請教的是針對AI的趨勢國軍接下來是不是有比較具體的一些作為大概是要怎麼樣的來建構 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8691.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8707.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
人工智慧的這個部分在國防部這邊還處於草創的階段那目前我們配合行政院的政策指導我們先建立內部的AI人工智慧技術導入的政策指導的一個委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8708.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8734.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那就目前我們也透過我們整平思DIO這個管道去引進市場成熟的AI產品那其中尤其是有關於影像的判別以及電腦防護跟防害的這一塊是我們會先其導入那後續軍事應用的部分會是AI人工智慧的發展跟他的成熟度逐年納入我們後續的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8735.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8758.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那你們有要建構所謂的人工智慧的專案辦公室嗎我們現在已經成立一個人工智慧專案辦公室什麼時候成立的這個部分是我們做的一個內部的組織調整它目前的階段是在做業務的整合我就問什麼時候成立的AI人工智慧辦公室是在今年的10月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8761.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8778.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我每次跟你們講話都很累所以今年10月1號的時候設立了一個人工智慧的專案辦公室那是目前是屬於你們的內部的一個組織那我想問一下就是目前的階段是如此那未來有沒有可能考慮去擴大它的規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8779.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8794.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
目前未來是一定會擴大它的規模未來會擴大規模那這個人工智慧專辦公室它整體的這個預算規模那你們是怎麼樣去規劃的包委員它目前是沒有我知道啊多的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8795.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8824.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我知道啊不然的話預算書上面寫大家就會問了嘛那我今天問我剛剛也搶到啦就是說你們是從你們內部那先去整合出一個人工智慧專案辦公室可是你剛剛講說你們未來有要擴大嘛那有擴大的時候那你就勢必你會動用預算或者是動用原額我再詢問的是你們接下來的下一步你要怎麼樣的去擴大那你的這個預算規模預計的原額以及團隊的人數這個部分是不是可以向我們說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8824.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8850.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我們現在是剛成立還在試行現在如何擴大還沒有一個具體的決策因為為什麼要談這個就是我們今天講到無人機它其實是需要有導入AI的輔助的比舉例來說我們在風群無人機打擊目標的時候究竟我們是要打到目標無反應的殲滅或者是達到傷害效果之後那就轉移下一波的攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8851.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8868.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個如果我們有訓練完善的AI去下決策指令的話其實是能夠更有效率的所以我希望能夠看到我們這個所謂人工智慧專辦公室10月1號你們做了內部的成立接下來如果有進一步的我要講預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8868.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8882.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
人員額擴大規模相關的這個內容必須要清楚的提供給我們知道那我們在很多的一些預算審查上比如說配合無人機等等我們才能夠更清晰的去了解不曉得部長這樣可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8883.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8898.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以我們現在人工智慧辦公室只是一個暫時性的一個協調聯絡的一個作為都是應用宣言那未來要如何再擴大人工智慧的運用這個我想我們還有待來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8899.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8911.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那我好奇喔就是你們預計就是如果要擴大的話那有規劃就比如說半年內或者是一年後這樣子比較rough的一個就是我不跟你問這麼細就是比較彈性的一個期程嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8914.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8936.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們現在目前還只是在易用宣言然後成立一個辦公室來作為一個協調各個需求那未來會把它考慮升級嗎就像是很多的我們在不同的部門裡面像比如說大家比較了解像什麼少子化辦公室或是等等各式各樣的辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8937.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8952.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
會朝向這個方面發展還是打算要就是用現有的這種小的內部組織然後就一路做到底了包委目前他第一階段就是先把我知道你的第一階段嘛我就在問下一階段的事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8953.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8974.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們先講現在現在他是先把國防部裡面各個目前正在推動人工智慧的各司局次事的業務做一個集中匯流那下一階段我們會配合軍事投資建案裡面有關於人工智慧技術導入的這個部分去適度的調整我們所需要的原額那預算的部分當然就會出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8974.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8982.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
OK好所以那你們大概預計就是說到這個階段就從階段A到階段B那大概需要多久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8984.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9005.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
目前還沒有一個實證我們現在只是先做一個統籌的概念因為大家都要發展的時候我們必須要從部裡面的立場做一個整理的策略規劃了解 沒有就沒有沒關係接下來我要詢問一下我們收到的報告我回去檢查了一下最近大家都也很關心軍購案延宕的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9008.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9037.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那我們就看到關於延宕交付你們提了三案嘛那其中一案我覺得還好沒有差異很大但另外一案呢我們在10月1號其實會收到大家都有收到一份是美對台這個軍售案的公開書面資料那11月3號因為有專案報告的關係所以呢我們也有收到一份專案報告的資料那在專案報告之後我回去比對了一下10月1號的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9038.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9056.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
就是說一個月之間你們所寫的內容我必須說有蠻多部分是不一樣的那到底是怎樣為什麼一個月之間你們寫的報告會有這個差距來我們從F16B來看那有不同的地方我用紅色標註那首架機原本規劃是112年出廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9058.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9064.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
10月1號的時候講的是因為客製化的軟體研發所以期程要調整到114年全部於115年完成可是在11月3號的時候這個客製化軟體研發的內容就不見了就只講到是產線搬遷重啟跟供應鏈中斷然後說我們要加這個加趕工等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9083.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9090.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
10月1號有提到的內容11月3號沒有出現第二個MK48重型魚雷的部分原本在10月1號的時候你們的報告裡面寫到的是受到俄烏戰爭跟國際戰爭的影響供應鏈的產能 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9098.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9105.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
但在11月3號的時候而且你們當時也說調整其程式原本預計在117年結案調整其程到119年完成可是在11月3號的專案報告裡面供應鏈中斷跟重啟產線的因素是否來自於俄烏戰爭跟國際影響也不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9120.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9124.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那調整的期程變成115到117年那就是原本的結案時間但是你10月1號的時候告訴我們的是要調整期程到119年我現在想問的是為什麼你們的兩次的報告會有這樣子明顯的出入啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9141.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9162.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
委員好 我是空氣商務長先就F16V的部分跟您做一個報告我想這個F16V影響的這個因素我們在很多的專案報告裡面都報告過那這三個因素一直都沒有改變過也從頭到尾的講法都是一致可能是因為篇幅上顯示的關係所以有些許的不同那跟委員報告當然第一個就是產線人力的問題因為COVID-19的關係所以說產線人力的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9166.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9184.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
沒關係因為這個我們上一次都講過你現在在講重複的因為我問的問題不是這個我問的問題只是說為什麼你們10月1號跟10月3號你提供給我們的報告上面會有出入好不好那這個部分我也沒有要刁難你們我只是希望未來如果說我們有專案報告的時候你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9186.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9211.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
你們理應當去檢視一下先前提供的資料然後跟現在的資料然後做一個對比而不是說呢10月的時候寫的是這樣11月的時候寫的是這樣那我當然是我只問一下那個後面那個MK48因為我先前沒有問過那個我目前調整期程到底是到119年完成有這件事嗎還是規劃於115年到117年全數教育呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9212.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9230.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
委員好 海巡視音部常常跟您說明115它會開始 它的產能已經逐漸的在加速會在117把這個魚雷交付那118年 因為它有一些附屬裝備119是全案的結案但是它的deliver會在117年沒有啊 你10月1號你寫說117年結案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9233.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9250.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
10月1號我們的資料是119年是結案是119沒有沒有你說原本預計於117年結案但是調整其成到119年那我剛剛詢問的意思是說那這句話是否現在依然如此或是有所調整跟改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9252.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9277.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
現在目前就是在117年前會交運117年會交運就沒有119年完成這個部分沒有117年就全部結束結案我想MK48的重型娛樂的部分他應該在11月3號的報告裡面他是在講交運那至於整個的結案剛剛參謀長也提到因為結案他要後續的附屬裝備還要有一個一年的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9278.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9291.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
結案合約的文件的審查那沒有問題所以這兩個的表述方法不同那另外這個客製化軟體的這個研發的這個部分在當時的這我們上次有討論過對對那所以現在應該在陸續在解決當中我們上次討論過的事情現在不用再重複因為時間很有限在更早的時間所發生的狀況再做一個說明我要強調的事情就是你看喔11月3號的時候我們要求你們來報告有關於延宕交付的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9306.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9324.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那實際上你們就是期程要到119年來正式完成那117年是教育那你應該你在11月3號專案報告你也要寫完整啊那否則的話其實要不是我看了10月1號跟11月3號我整合在一起看那我知道的資訊可能就只有一半而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9324.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9336.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以我在這裡是我真的誠心希望我們在提供報告給大家的時候可以有橫平性、一致性跟完整性不要讓我還要回去比對好不好因為時間的關係我還是要針對這個軍購延宕的問題一個一個來跟大家來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9343.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9368.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那主要的原因是因為呢 顧不老您先前講說我們延宕的這個金額那是三千多億那我想跟這個可能很多包含是美方的智庫或是呢這個很多人的計算是不一樣的那可能計算的方法不一樣也會使得它有落差所以乾脆二十六案我們一個一個來問今天我絕對是時間不夠的但是我之後還會一直碰到您所以呢我沒有問完的部分我會接著繼續問 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9369.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9395.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好來我們先看一下26案裡面來第一個我就把這一張那個主席給我一點時間我把這一張先問完就好了那想問一下這個F16V這個你們應該已經講過了2480億台幣的部分呢那這個它是2480億嘛那截至目前的狀況是沒有任何一台來嘛這個我們是知道的然後付出了這個1440億到我們的這個結會的戶頭裡面好這個沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9400.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9410.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我check一下我們匯到我們的FRB的帳戶裡面應該是47多那實際付款給實際付款給廠商的金額應該是32.5億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9420.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9440.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
請大家以後如果我們上面寫的是台幣我們在中華民國我們就講台幣好不好因為可能要你們換算你們覺得麻煩但是因為我們這個媒體記者很多新聞還有看直播的好朋友們我們市民朋友要寫你總不能叫他去換算所以以後我們這邊講的台幣就請你們回台幣不要給我回美金不然我講2480你講30幾然後48聽起來很少不是這是美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9444.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9460.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那第二個部分就是M1A2T的這個戰車那請問他目前我們當時是採購金額以及現在的交貨情況當初原本是編列390餘億元採購108輛M1A2T戰車加上他的附屬車輛跟裝備總共總額會是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9471.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9491.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
總預算是405就是390餘億的雙倍款加上附屬國內的配額款我們助理記一下因為我們今天的表格的來源是來自於我們媒體的報導以及幾個重點的單位如果有不對的地方也請做指教包圍620是智慧國會價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9493.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9521.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
OK 好 所以最後沒有問題你就告訴我們因為我們也希望幫你們更正這些相關的內容嘛那這樣子的話我們才能夠真正算出來一個完整的數字嘛因為先前我們在上一次的時候你們是提供三個大項目嘛可是實際上我們對美的採購是有26項所以我想一項一項知道那了解清楚之後呢那大家就更知道說到底發生什麼事所以您可以再講一次我們MYA2T最後的我們的這個金額是您剛剛說是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9523.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9540.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我們原編的預算是405億這是原編預算那智慧國會的時候它出現了一個600餘億的金額可是第一版發價書出來的時候它直接降到499餘億所以最後我們是用499餘億的這個金額來去做抬購這個額度目前經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9550.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9577.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
數年的調整之後目前從499拉到目前是拉到453億好 453億你就直接回答正確數字就好了那請問目前交貨的狀況呢我們採購的量數以及交貨的量數目前第一批跟第二批已經交了80樣現在剩下最後一批的28量預化在明年的第一季就會交裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9578.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9607.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以剩下是還有28輛還沒有來所以我們可以看一下因為媒體報導這邊是總共有108輛顯然您剛剛說是20幾輛我們就繼續往下主席不好意思我還有三個我把它一次問完這一頁不然我後面好像未來還有很多頁請大家就簡短回答好不好F16的紅外線搜尋追蹤夾艙的部分我們是跟對方採購的金額是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9611.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9614.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後還有我們交貨的目前情況是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9620.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9650.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我们16V的这个夹仓的部分它不是只有夹仓它还包含了武器弹药没问题总金额是428亿2000万元你把它算在一起嘛428亿2000万元那请问来的交付的状况是如何现在这个案子只完成议约阶段只有议约阶段好没有问题那MS110夹仓的部分MS111夹仓它已经完成产制目前正在测评 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9651.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9663.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
正在測評 那交付的情況呢零年底就會交付年底要全數交付那我們買了幾件沒有 它是分批因為它過來之後還要跟我們的地面站台做媒合那請問當時我們採購的價格是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9666.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9683.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們採購98億元然後買了幾套那年底要交付6套年底要交付最後是MK75的760快泡泡座我們採購的金額以及目前的交付情況採購的金額數量以及交付情況最後一個了 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9685.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9696.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
拐六炮的那個快炮炮座他是一個後維費的案子這個我們另外再提供給委員好另外再提供給我好不好好沒有問題那我們今天就先到這裡謝謝好謝謝接下來請鄭天才委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9718.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9738.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
主席 各位委員 有請部長請郭部長部長好今天雖然不是跟你的職責 職長沒有直接關係了但是還是要先謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9741.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9763.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這個花蓮光復馬太安溪淹涉浮潰壩造成重大的傷亡以及家戶社區部落土地這個農田非常大的損失這個摧毀土石的淹埋我們很多的國軍在那邊這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9765.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9780.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
支持救援救助非常非常的辛苦要代表謝謝我們所有的國軍那我們現在接下來還是要善後要去解決這個源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9784.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9809.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
上次我在對卓院長的質詢的時候當然我沒有針對部長來質詢是針對農業部跟經濟部那我們現在來看這個國外的案例我們現在這個菸社府當然這個汽水的含量沒有像之前那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9812.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9838.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這個造成的這些災害我們必須不要讓它再發生我們的國軍弟兄就可以不要再去那邊去救援所以我們看這個國際的三大案例第一個案例爆破開出人工易紅道這個是在蘇聯他們也是用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9839.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9866.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
龐大的工程以軍事的力量決定來去協助這個當然每個案例不同所以這個是用爆破的方式那如果要爆破的話當然如果國軍能夠支援當然是一種方式當然是不是要用爆破當然由專業的團隊另外去評估了那另外一個案例開挖為主並向爆破為輔 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9868.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9893.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這個是大陸的一個方式他也是國軍來去協助第三個案例完全用挖掘引流全部都用挖的這是美國的案例他是美國的陸軍工兵團他們去評估去評估 去協助 去了解整個狀況因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9896.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9919.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這個台灣多山中央山脈或海岸山脈當然我們也要去對未來對未來國軍能夠更了解我們的山林恐怕也是非常重要所以在美國的這個案例它就是完全用挖掘 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9920.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9932.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
引流他也是用這個美國入軍的工兵團去評估之後然後怎麼樣去相關的人去包括機界因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9934.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9956.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
挖土机啊大家以为挖土机直接不好载运其实是可以组装的其实是可以组装的所以这个部分怎么样去能够去协助因为现在是组则组则的单位是农业部啊他们什么都没有啊农业部而且是林务级啊就是林业署啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9957.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9979.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
他们也不是这方面的专业他们也没有相关很多的相关的这些设施包括这个直升机啊各方面他们都没有了所以这个部分当然内政部有一部分的直升机了所以怎么样能够共同的合作来去根本的去解决这个眼头棉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9981.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10006.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
一地震或是一颱風又要產生這些危害都是我們要去避免的部分所以在這樣的一個情形之下這個就讓我們的這個看國防部哪些軍種哪些單位可以去共同的去協助協助這個農業部這個是我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10009.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10035.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
事實上以這個地形來講這個內政部的空巡總隊他們也上去過事實上這個地形也不是說完全都不能飛機不能直升機也不是完全都不能所以這個部分給國防部共同的去協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10038.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10048.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
農業部及相關包括這個內政部相關的單位部長這個你再請相關的單位去評估啦好不好可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10051.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10069.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我想國軍是作為一個協助的單位那這個應該要由這個專業的團隊去做完評估之後如果有需要國軍做協助的那國軍再根據這個評估再就我們這個能量所 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10071.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10088.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
量能所及的範圍之內去做協助因為現在農業部因為沒有相關的設施設備他只能做的方式就是把現有的林道拓寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10089.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10108.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
把現有的兩個林道望榮林道跟光復林道要拓寬那我認為這樣的做法當然是其中一種做法但是我認為會對山林的水土的保持可能也有很大的影響所以我才會說國防部能夠去協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10109.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10134.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
協助的話所以我想專業團隊評估是一件事國軍如何協助是一件事所以評估這件事情還是要由專業團隊來進行國軍是站在協助的角色剛才我提的第三個案例就是完全是美國的陸軍去評估的這個給你做參考 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請賴氏保委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10145.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10150.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長是 老委好是 早 部長我請教簡單的問題今天講無人機我就想到MQ-9V是死神無人機是明年度確定可以交嗎請空軍說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10176.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10194.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
包委員 這個目前進度都是正常明年確定可以交集大概什麼時候 明年什麼時候大概在第三季的左右第三季喔 是不是跟他一起那個火山布雷也是一起交是不是火山布雷這個不是我們是不是火山布雷火山布雷原來要112年交耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10197.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10224.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
抱怨不是 火山布雷系統原本是118它現在已經提前到116116喔好 那我現在就問一個問題就是這裡面因為我們是跟美國買美國又對軍售特別對我們軍售有所謂的最終用戶條款進行類似出國管制所以等於是我們用它的GPS透過GPS用EGI系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10226.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10254.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們是不是所有的資料都要美國先知道再轉給我們是不是包委員最終使用過監控協議跟GPS沒有關係不是不是不是這個很清楚是透過美國軍用GPS接收機設計的慣性導航系統以及I然後才傳給台灣針對MQ-9B GPS訊號傳輸的部分因為我們是地面站台單向對接的所以沒有這個所謂外傳的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10255.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10277.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
不是 要不要透過美國 不用我們直接講清楚 實際上是什麼包委 這不需要透過美國那他的GPS只是純接收我們並沒有上傳資料出去那我們的資料要不要跟美日共享不需要 這個部分是下載之後直接到我們的地面站台沒有透過美方 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10278.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10299.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
確定沒有因為外界都認為有這個資訊都要先經過美國 美國再傳給我們沒有這回事那我們自己能操作好 那麼來我看一下請部長看一下預算無人機相關的預算115年度編了108億 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10305.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10312.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
總經費就是我們的無人機的總經費編的是355億現在114年度以前已經編列了有185億到現在為止還沒有編列的有60幾億請問這些的計畫執行有沒有on schedule |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10326.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10343.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
有沒有都是按照進度在走目前這些您看到從那個遙控無人機防禦系統到底下的高高空無人機系統的部分目前都按照正常進度在執行就按照正常系統所以這個問題好 那就請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10344.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10356.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
上一次我問過你 你回答得很保守那今天我再問一次就是編那個1兆或者1.3兆的特別預算到底1兆還是1.3兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10357.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10380.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我也跟委員報告現在就是還在行政院審議當中對啊 你送出去因為外面媒體有講一兆1.3這到底是哪一個對啊我們是問你這個不是機密吧因為行政院還沒有審議結果出來我想我不便在這邊說一個所以你不講就對了然後那特別預算裡面有沒有包括無人機系統 有沒有有應該有嘛而且比例還滿高的 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10387.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10413.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我想確定的這個金額等到我們審議結果以後再跟委員做報告但是確定有那有沒有要再跟通通是國造的嗎要不要還要跟美國買我想我們確定的這個項目案項的這個部分等確定以後我們會跟委員做個報告也會對外做個現在有一個矛盾的地方啦外界不斷的批評啦 部長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10414.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10441.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
就是過去都是美國核准了要軍售我們才編特別預算結果現在美國還沒有核准一毛錢也沒有核准川普上台到現在一項也沒有核准結果你就編特別預算這很奇怪啊 就對我們來講好像要一張空白支票給你一樣啊我們怎麼省啊因為裡面一定要請問你 一定要跟美國人買武器嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10444.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10467.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
會有 我想我們商購 軍購不管商購 軍購都有委制都有而且大部分是跟美國買的對不對我們有一定的金額一定金額 應該超過50%吧我想確確的這個金額項目我想還是等到確定以後再跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10468.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10481.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
這個我就要提出來就是我再強調一遍外界不斷的質疑但是你到今天為止沒有給答案就是為什麼今年的特別預算往年都是美國核准呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10482.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10498.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們在編特別預算F16V就最好的例子結果現在為什麼你可以先偷跑先要了一張空白支票然後沒有項目你不跟我們講然後你就要編這個特別預算按正常來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10499.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10526.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這個十一月底可能十二月初行政院就核准了就一張空白支票出來了我就不知道你到底編什麼啊因為你要的項目美國還不給你啊所以你 然後你又這裡也承認要跟美國買可是美國不准啊在裡面不是很矛盾嗎我們應該都到時候都會有一個具體的案項然後來主意跟委員做報告當然都是經過台美雙方討論之後才同意的可是到現在為止他沒有批啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10528.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10554.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我想我們等這個條例確定之後那具體的案項的部分有經過台美雙方同意這個部分我們會再跟所以你的意思就是只要我們這個預算通過了只要你提出來了他們就批了是不是這個意思我想我們在事前都有經過台美雙方的協商不要忘了喔在事前川普說習近平答應他任內不打台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10555.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10571.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
也就是說極有可能他的任內用什麼來交換他不賣武器給台灣喔這可能性存在喔結果你現在說台美怎麼樣還是聽川普的啊川普用他保證習近平跟他保證任內不會打台灣是這個啊你不覺得這裡面你心裡邊這個預算不會毛毛的嗎我都替你毛毛的 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10584.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10602.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
最後一點 最後一點預算 我看到的預算你們明年度的預算類似請國外的顧問 特別是美軍的顧問以前幾百萬而已 預算明年度變了一億你要不要解釋一下 為什麼變這麼多為什麼變這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10606.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10621.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
包委員那個不是請美方的顧問那是一個整體的戰力評估案以前都幾百萬為什麼現在有1億呢以前幾百萬的原因是因為美國國會在這個部分他挹注了數千萬美元在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10622.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10639.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
現在不依住了那今年開始美方希望我們在評估的這一段能夠以共同分攤的方式來執行那以前幾千萬美金那很多錢有幾十億喔那你現在變一億也不夠啊如果照你這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10639.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10652.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
目前這是初步的規劃這個我再強調一遍以前都是變幾百萬去年今年的五百萬明年變一億這非常的可疑好謝謝我們現在先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11003.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11009.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
請大家就座我們繼續開會接下來請王紅薇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席請那個我們部長顧立雄顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11029.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11033.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
部長 我們其實除了國防之外我們針對無人機的採購還有甚至無人載具的採購事實上有一個千億的採購計畫這裡面還包含行政院其他的軍警銷之類的我們整個無人機的採購計畫可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11053.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11074.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
金額很龐大而且也編列相關的預算但是呢過去我們也有相關的尤其國防部所屬的無人機的採購計畫那如果你看過去的預算執行可以發現在這個無人機的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11075.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11102.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這個保留數保留的比例是相當大的即便到113年也將近25%之多而且呢這些相關的保留的原因有一些是進度落後有一些是認證沒有執行然後其中呢有關於性能測試的驗收不合格那麼也是使得在 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11103.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11115.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
但該年度的預算沒有辦法完成之用所以辦理預算保留所以我想請教部長我們現在特別預算再增加無人武器那問題是這個產能 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11118.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11120.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
是足夠的嗎而且你按照過去這個保留率一向偏高的狀況那我們繼續編列這麼多的特別預算請問一下能夠如數執行呢還是會重蹈覆轍最後這些預算又繼續的保留反而去排擠掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11140.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11160.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
其他的相關的預算支出因為我們不要忘記我們其實包含今年度明年度的國防的預算支出已經佔整個的總預算的比例已經非常大明年度要佔到將近三分之一所以我想請教部長你所了解你們有沒有去檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11161.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11176.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
過去的預算執行然後現在的預算編列這樣子確實能夠去執行還是只是有預算就直接的把它放進去以所謂的這個國防任性能要到錢就要到錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11179.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11202.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
剛剛委員提到就是說因為我們要來進行這樣子的一個無人系統的載具的需求當然是基於我們防衛作戰的一個需求所計算出來的那國內的這個產能的部分當然我們也是在這個符合我們作戰需求的前提之下我們希望讓這個整個無人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11204.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11209.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
機的產業能夠起來這個當然是一個附加的一個效果同時也能夠帶動整個無人機產業來達到我們自主生產的一個韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11215.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11219.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我這完全知道啊我現在問你的問題你答非所問嘛我問的問題是說你難道過去的無人機的採購難道也不是根據你的需求所編列的嗎當時你也一定是說根據你的需求編列但是它在執行的時候就有我剛才所講的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11234.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11245.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
很多他就進度落後啦或者是整個的認證根本沒有辦法驗收合格啊所以你的保留因為我現在講的你們有沒有去檢討你在預算保留這麼多保留這麼多沒有辦法執行然後你繼續編列這個大筆的預算那你繼續編列大筆預算其結果你又沒有辦法執行你又繼續的保留那事實上就是排擠其他的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11260.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11275.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
包委員 我們的確有去檢討在第一批我們採購三規軍用無人機的這個部分中間的確遇到一些國內產能技術性的困難所以我們未來無人機的大量償單的這個規劃的部分是由軍備局 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11276.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11278.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
來做委制那針對我們的需求跟國內的能力做一個通販性的規劃在國內產業具體能夠生產的前提之下來規劃未來這個案子我上次在執行部長的時候因為你們現在是無人載具你這1000億包含無人機還有無人艇嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11295.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11310.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那時候我就說啦你這麼龐大的這些預算其實所謂的無人機國家隊其實現在當然就是說現在是鞠躬產業那包含你這個無人艇現在也是只有台船 隆德跟中信 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11311.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11326.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這三家在做嘛那你能不能增加其他的業者進來我在上星期的質詢也是一樣所以我的意思說我們今天的無人武器無人載具你們不要動不動就以所謂的需求任性等等但是一定要去檢討你的預算有沒有在繼續保留的問題那另外我想請教部長最近呢在網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11340.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11343.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
熱議就是我們現在這個M1A2T這個戰車的亮相結果我們的備章出現了Taiwan Army |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11352.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11356.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
可是很多人講說你去中華最後變成去中華民國化這不是國軍嗎這不是國軍我們國家的名稱不是中華民國嗎為什麼不用ROC Army怎麼會變成台灣Army如果你今天看美國美國不然就是US Army不然就是US Navy不然的話也是放在美國的國旗那我請問一下這個備章是怎麼回事呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11381.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11397.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
跟委員報告我想最主要這是一個紀念備章那M1A2T這個後面這個T就是專門被台灣打造的那您講的中華民國陸軍這個在我們的彌彩湖的左胸前這個中華民國陸軍一直存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11398.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11406.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那你但是你這個一樣是配在我們國軍的備章上啊你這個是怎麼樣你所謂的紀念備章是怎麼樣是商品還是怎麼樣還是紀念小物是這個意思嗎陳軍使的一個為了做為陳軍的一個紀念備章那以後佩戴是什麼以後佩戴是什麼備章 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11424.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11431.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
呃 這個備章呃 佩戴它 佩戴備章啊所以我就問你啊 你到底是紀念小屋還是怎麼樣 吉祥物 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11432.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11454.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
包委員 簡單的說 剛才部長已經說明了這是一個紀念備章 它主要在陳軍典禮上面為了彰顯官兵宦訓的辛勞與榮譽它基本上就配發給官兵收職所以ROC2明明有榮譽感我們永久佩戴的其實就是我們胸前的中華民國陸海空軍還有包含到我們右臂上面懸掛的中華民國國旗這是不會改變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11457.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11461.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我希望就是說今天在政治上動不動再搞這個去中化最後去來去去變成去中華民國化這個是在國際裡面我覺得這是絕對絕對不要這樣子搞法的好不好那全世界也是這樣他會搞出一個什麼NY Army嗎CA Army嗎 不是嘛他還是要有國家至上的榮譽感嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11483.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11503.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
跟委員報告 我想剛剛講的明彩湖的左胸有中華民國陸軍那右臂的備章是國旗那另外聯兵三營裡面它也有專屬的備章在584旅都會有一個專屬的備章那這個當然就是為了M1A2T這個成軍的時候的一個紀念的備章我想這個已經多次的說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11504.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11517.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
但是也是還是引起外界高度的質疑其實重點就是不要去中化搞到變成去中華民國化去國家化這一點是非常非常重要的好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11522.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11543.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我們所有的武器裝備他們給我們如果是為台灣做的他都是for Taiwan都是有T如果是這樣過去也有很多所以我想其實這個中華民國的國軍他是有一定的歷史嚴格我們也希望可以確保這樣榮譽你既然胸前或你如果是紀念小物其實你可以做其他的東西這個我想其實也讓我們的國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11547.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11557.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
是有這樣的一個概念應該會更好不要把政治都纏入在裡面接下來請謝榮介委員上台質詢主席我請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11582.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11583.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我請教你我們台灣對外的採購武器坦白說我們在國際的局勢對我們很不利所以有很多需要去跟人家討協有很多我們會去受到委屈這我想日本人都可以體諒我們的鄉親也都可以體諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11611.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11615.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
但是這個海群河 國難國責 老總統當選的時候 曾經有說要停了我請問是你把他說好嗎 你把他說好 所以最後繼續國見國照 那個賴總統曾經要喊停 那是部長你說服他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11636.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11644.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我那時候沒有要公佈 我知道你沒有在公佈因為你那時候的公安會也很重要的事嘛是誰把他說服的我想這個潛艦國造的部分的建案是不是請海軍來做決定誰說服了賴總統要繼續推動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11660.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11687.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
跟委員報告其實潛艦國造從很早開始從民國90年開始所以說它是一貫的政策老總統當選的時候要喊停嘛那是誰說服他了報告委員我們沒有掌握到要喊停我們一直都知道因為這是一個必要的潛艦的一個國家不對稱的一個戰略必須要持續去獲得這個 相信這部分沒辦法給他問這幾天你如果不知道的話 老前提會不會跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11690.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11715.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
來 保證我請教你海群河喔 已經付多少錢處理了實際已經支付了多少錢這海群來回答好來 各位報告原型建總共是493億那目前的部分我們都已經預約在開始付付多少錢啊現在我們還有將近還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11716.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11728.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
因為測試還沒有在付給台船的預約款有三期是19.2億就是493減到20大概470億左右還有武器的部分沒關係啦對這個部分我們部長我請教你喔台準碰到這世界各國台海有八國這的共營商的合約書部長請教你有看過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11747.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11761.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
詳細的那個客戶我沒有...你沒看?很可惜喔因為伊利登基在法律界你這麼賴啦應該這個合約書你看到我們可以省很多錢啦所以這個部分是由台存跟外國的供應商去處理你也沒看到這個合約我們跟台存的合約你有看嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11774.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11782.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我 想這是淨井 就是說原型建的部分這是恰到以前的 我知道啦 但是你做補充後你沒想說外面窗戶到風風雨雨 你也拿一本回來看嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11787.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11799.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
跟委員報告他整個的合約就是海軍有個專案團隊我們也有建造組那我們也有合約的這個部分有請專案律師還有2840個因為這牽涉到阿伯七代啦所以大家關心的這次的判決做完做一半的判決就好了 不然在裡面再做判決你阿伯再一樣的錯誤繼續發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11815.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11817.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
我們台灣的鄉親是不能挽留人的那在採訪的過程中有發生這個問題甚至設置目前現年看來有問題我很慎重請教顧部長在測試的這個海昆號有沒有焊接問題有沒有因為焊接造成的漏水問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11842.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11846.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
沒有沒有 內部有漏水的問題嗎都做過水密的測試 都通過所有的發動機 包括現在沒辦法藏在水底有不可恢復的信訊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11867.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11884.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我沒聽過說你沒聽他們說過所以這裡的信箱都可以修理就對了目前都已經在做多部主機的測試我們在做前行前的最後測試跟裝備的檢整都可以修理都可以恢復所有這裡北角以上這裡的供應商供應的器材料都有合乎我們的檢測標準嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11896.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11915.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
抱歉 是的所以 為什麼不處理農莊標準結果撐不下去 鋪不起來這就嚴重了抱歉 要跟委員報因為我們所有的驗測的程序都要做每個程序發現問題就解決問題那現在已經到了那是什麼會給你們延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11917.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11939.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
延遲就是因為發學的一些問題就要做幫裝備的調校調校會涉及到不同的這個廠家跟我們專業團隊還有操作人員要共同解決這個問題我們現在的測試的延後在兩個月左右但是我們建設是正常那這兩個月後我們現在正在目前就在加緊在做目標是這樣啦但是兩個月後會淡不淡也沒辦法補正是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11943.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11967.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們現在就是 朝這個目標來邁進可以達成使命那就是一月份下潛這個詳細的時間我們會在完成評估之後會再統一跟大家講但是將近不會太久你們這次做下潛測試準備有多少深度 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11968.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11981.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
就我們之前的工程的一個說明部分潛航 潛水潛航大概在50公尺上下我聽到5公尺 盲用5公尺報告員不會有這個情形嗎我們會審慎安全評估2026年1月份50公尺潛航測試多久時間看狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11995.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12023.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
現在目前沒有2026年1月前航50公尺這個時間沒有我說我們現在跟原先的設定的delay是兩個月那我們現在正在要說所以遙遙無期我剛才跟你鼓勵要達成什麼遙遙無期我們現在就在前航標準達成之後沒有意義啦是是做好才來騎啦難叫你停了也沒意思啦發生意外沒人等會去嘛但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12025.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12039.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
有很多細節啦 時間的問題 我要講 針對那一群合 我有很多細節要跟你們請教所以希望你們最好 我建議政府單位 你跟臺準的合約書你付臺準470億 我要請教你 臺準已經付付這個經營最多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12051.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12073.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
現在400多億裡面就建造款的時候應該是368億所以現在因為他還沒有按照這個期程完成這個潛航的節點所以潛航的測試所以會在依照這個節點付款然後在完成潛航測試以後才會再陸續付後面的款項那實際 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12074.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12077.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
台船已經付給這幾個國家的供應商的款項多少 你可以告訴我嗎 這個是機密嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12092.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12093.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
接下來請楊瓊英委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12125.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12131.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
謝謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請部長請顧部長是楊維 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12138.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12159.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
部長好 我們來討論無人載具裝備部隊的規劃跟特別預算的規劃我們今天討論的這個規劃的議程因為近年來無人載具含空中 地面以及海上都已經成為戰場主力的一個趨勢所以首先要請教部長我們國軍是否已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12160.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12172.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
建立了專責的無人載具作戰單位或者是編制那國軍隊與無人載具在我們的戰力上面你的角色跟你的規劃方向是什麼請做說明請做記事 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12174.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12196.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
保委員我是座議事次長公委員報告有關無人機專責部隊的編制我們按照貨裝的期程目前已經編成了陸戰隊有火力營無人機營另外北中南各軍團有編成無人機的大隊那結合未來貨裝的期程會逐步再編成其他類型的專責部隊來去做無人機的操作跟戰術運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12197.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12207.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
所以確實我們是有所規劃而且在執行之所以部長根據日前媒體的一個報導我們政府電子採購網公開的資訊我們在3號公布了一項涉及635套 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12214.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12241.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
可稀釋的無人機反制系統公開來月亮案它的總金額是高達96億元它更著名它的預算來源是115年至117年度特別預算請教部長這到底什麼狀況你們的規劃這個特別預算是不是屬實那你的進度又是如何呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12242.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12270.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
请做说明报告 报告委员陆军参谋长向您报告第一个这个公开阅览是依据政府采购法第34条当然它的主要目的是也是为了了解国内的商情还有相关的规格的一个征求那它不是一个正式的招标文件所以它在上面它还有著名预算尚未奉核然后等到真的获得了预算的法源之后才予登录好 谢谢你那部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12271.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12291.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那到底現在公開閱覽的上面是住民115年到117年的特別預算因為到目前為止現在是114年11月份立法院還沒有收到這樣的訊息那請教部長到底有沒有要編列這樣的預算我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12296.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12319.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
剛剛參謀長已經說明了現在就是在一個公開徵詢的一個階段那要有這個預算的編列一定要到大院來那請教部長到底你國防部會不會編列這個預算我們當然會有一個規劃所以你會編那這個規模也就是照這個公開院的數字一樣是96億是從115年到117年是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12323.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12348.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
相關的這個規劃我想還要等到最後確定以後當然啊 因為你已經公開閱覽了嘛你已經公開閱覽那現在是114年的11月份我們現在沒有看到特別預算請問你什麼時候會編出來我想現在在行政院審議當中就請 等行政院的審議預算已經送行政院沒有 現在條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12349.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12371.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
條例送行政院所以還沒有這個預算預算的具體的項目還沒有等條例你這個行政院合併之後你就會編列預算 流程是如此嘛你條例 現在您的進度北析解讀的正不正確你現在條例已經送到行政院來做審議是不是在審議當中預計什麼時候會審議完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12374.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12401.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我想還沒有辦法 我要看行政院因為這是行政院的權責那請問今年年底你會不會提出這一筆特別預算我想就依照行政院的這個指導規劃來辦理規劃辦理 所以確定是有這一筆預算跟這個條例確定也是有這個方向跟規劃115年到117年的這個特別預算案是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12402.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12432.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我們整個的特別預算案應該現在規劃是七年的特別預算案好 你講到這裡我們現在理清楚了一件事情因為軍購的特別預算到底情況是怎麼樣上一次本席在大院裡頭也跟您討論過那院長也說院長說他知道這個事情那他也說進度到底在哪裡你也特別補充特別條例就是已經送到行政院在做審議的工作是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12433.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12459.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
對 應該是由政委在做審議那這個規模是不是照我們在媒體上以及貴黨的委員在美國所說的是7年同時是達到1.3兆的預算是不是如此 我想這個我還是在重複就是說關於這個預算的這個規模還是要等行政院審議的結果你的方向是不是如此是不是史上最高的特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12460.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12482.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我想還是 是不是我們還是等行政院的最後審議結果來決定來在對外公布行政院審定是您去籌劃出來嗎我們既然確定是有涉事那會不會超過一兆以上我想我們還是要尊重行政院的審議部長 這個也就是今天是114年11月了你們的公開閱覽說115年到117年 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12488.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12515.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
是多少 96億的預算我們到現在還沒有收到 這第一個第二個 本席一直請教民眾希望知道國家的安全我們絕對支持但是我們要知道到底內容是什麼我們的預算規模是什麼我們的預計期程是什麼因為這個是整個國家財政的一個紀律跟辯列但是到目前為止 本席再請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12517.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12541.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我們如此的反覆的尋答得到的答案是確定有這個條例送到行政院正在審議當中那麼也確定你們公開閱覽的是115年到117年的特別預算裡頭包括無人載具的部分是96億 是96億是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12542.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12552.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
公務員報告就是說這個稀釋的無人機反制系統剛剛陸昕參謀長你講了現在正在一個公開徵求這個商情的一個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12553.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12581.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那至於其他所有相關的這些規劃我想我們必須尊重行政院那也一定會接受立法院的監督好 所以我們可以確定因為民眾要知的權利嘛我們可以確定115年到117年照你們的規劃特別預算是96億的無人載具的一個建制第二個也就是史上最高的特別預算應該是會超過一兆以上7年的編列是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12583.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12589.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我想還是等最後行政院的審議結果我們再對外公開跟還有跟委員來特別說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12590.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12616.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
董事長我們談論過幾次我現在你們什麼都講不清楚難怪民眾會感覺不知所措我們真正希望國家的安全再次強調我們絕對全力支持但是當你公開閱覽已經年限住民金額的時候你還是不願意跟民眾來說明清楚你們的進度到底是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12617.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12631.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
我想這個應該有精進的一個空間可惜是無人機的反制系統是在我們規劃的這個特別預算的項目之一無人機的反制是在你的特別預算的項目之一是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12632.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12646.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
是不是所以也就是本席一再強調的七年1.3兆的這個預算項目之一是不是我想還是提到這個金額的部分還是有待行政院審議你不承認1.3兆沒關係那是在這個你們規劃的範圍項目之一是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12651.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12680.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
依照公開的狀況的話這個是我們有這樣的需求有這樣的需求 本席是請問部長本席是請問我們在討論的史上最高的特別預算這一個我們剛剛所說的公開閱覽的可西氏無人機反制系統96億115年到117年是不是在你的本席認為史上最高特別預算的項目之一是不是 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12682.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12702.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
報告委員剛剛部長已經說是我們的規劃內容但是我還是要重述這個條例要先過當然這個流程我們談論過很多次了大家都知道流程對對對那部長是不是我再一次請教是不是在我們史上有可能是史上最高特別預算的項目之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12703.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12714.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
因為我們現在114年11月我們看不到你們送來的預算但是你在公開月欄裡頭已經有這樣註明我想我們會按照程序來合訂行政院審議合訂條例之後我們會送到大院來審議那審議通過以後我們才能夠編列相關的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12726.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12741.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以在你的條例裡頭也有這一個也就是這個可吸式無人機的可吸剛已經講了這是我們的規劃的需求但是還要等到條例如果條例沒有辦法通過也就沒有這個預算的編列的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12741.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12760.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
好 那這個反推就是在這個項目之一啦當然本席一再強調因為民眾有知的權利我們也希望國家的安全這是非常重要但是我還是要強調一次一句話 不能說攀爛海也不能把人民當提款機我們一起鞏固國家的安全 謝謝好 謝謝韋謝謝 接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12770.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12778.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
請羅廷偉委員 羅廷偉 羅廷偉委員不在請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請顧立雄部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12797.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12823.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
顧部長好顧部長剛聽您在接受幾位委員的答詢其實講的都相對保守我確認幾個部分就是現在國防部目前有提出特別預算的需求是不是給行政院審議條例在送行政院審議是那裡面有包括說預算的金額規模大小我想條例的這個部分在行政院審議當中我知道條例裡面有包含有沒有包含嗎這個總 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12825.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12854.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
有沒有包含可以講嘛如果國安不能講不能講沒關係我只是尊重但是我現在想確認的是條例裡面有沒有包含規模跟時程是 包委員條例裡面有預算上限有預算上限嘛對嘛就跟我們處理特別條例一樣都一樣嘛有譬如說多少億的預算上限嘛好所以第一有預算的規模那第二審議當中所以你現在也不能證實或說如果行政院還沒有核定的話你也不能講我尊重因為這確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12855.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12869.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
但是我們有看到最近有出現這所謂的公開閱覽那公開閱覽媒體也報導說它不是一個正式的招標公告是收集各界對於招標文件的意見所以未來招標公告也可能有出入對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12871.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12893.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
是是嗎好那問題來啦我們軍購也好或是一般的政府採購也好其實也蠻長的就是我們政府部門要做事情的時候我也會諮詢廠商的意見看合理的價格多少錢來編列預算然後到最後推出標案但不是說我一定指定給誰而是說我了解市場上的行情之後我推出來的這個標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12895.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12906.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
透過公開採購招標的過程裡面那我們來做一個最終得標可是我們也知道我們的對象相對來講軍購就比較局限美方 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12907.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12926.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
對不對那所以說對象比較局限那另外第二個部分通常我們在做這樣子的合理的一個推估的時候從來不會把我們的預算上限或是我們最低底線要編多少錢給講出來嘛可是現在就有民進黨的委員到美國去講了一個1.3兆的數字啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12927.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12956.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那1.3兆數字出來之後全國華人才會覺得是說為什麼現在都在行政院審議當中你有條例裡面有但我沒有問因為我也不清楚我相信你也不方便講可是為什麼會出現1.3兆那1.3兆出來了不就是把底牌先出來給其他人看嗎那未來的這些來投票的廠商或潛在的投票廠商他不就是會看你已經有1.3兆啊所以我即便我價格沒有那麼高我也可以喊到那麼高啊因為你到時候你有錢來買單啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12960.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12988.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
來1.3兆這怎麼來的能不能評論包委員1.3兆這個數字我們實在無從得知沒有什麼無從得知剛剛新聞已經出來了就民進黨的委員那兩個跑去一個還是我們外交國防的兩個都外交國防的委員跑去美國然後美國的報導中央社寫回來的我們國內大家媒體都寫了包委員這個我們無從得知因為他不是從國防部洩露出去的秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12989.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13013.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這個不是國安部提供的資料好 那就行政院囉所以行政院透過民進黨的委員去跟美國放消息告訴美國說我們有這個錢啊你們放心的報價吧我想國安部沒有任何這樣的一個意思是 我相信你們沒有這個意思嘛這個我相信啊因為我覺得我們要成一件事情不可能我先透露底牌啊而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13015.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13032.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
來 透露了底牌是不是對於我們的溢價也會比較辛苦我覺得會喔您現在講的是個別的項目還是因為現在講的是整體的預算的上限整體的規模嘛那整體的規模可以透露嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13033.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13059.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
整體的規模現在就是還在行政院審議當中對 還在審議當中嘛但本期現在問的是說大家問正常管道都問不出來嘛但是就有一個1.3兆的數字出來啦那如果說到之後出來行政院核定我不知道但行政院感覺起來短期內在今年就會出來那行政院如果出來到之後是1.35兆 1.38兆那是不是合理懷疑他其實講得很正確啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13062.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13084.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我想我們對個別委員的發言只能表示尊重但是我們沒有辦法表示任何的意見部長我很難得其實我再次強調在法學界來講我尊重您過去的專業但是在過去這一年多您擔任國防部部長我很難得看到您那麼的沒有像以前那麼大鳴大放 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13086.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13106.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
上有長官下也有同仁結果你變夾在中間然後好像什麼都不敢講那聯邦我們國軍弟兄捍衛應有權也沒有捍衛那我只講一件事啊真的大家想一下如果今天換位子今天是兩個國民黨的委員跑去美國講這個數字的話會被什麼樣輿論攻擊邁台透露機密國安機密透露 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13116.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13135.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
結果是兩個民進黨的國防委員會的委員 合適嗎那我們到底要不要特別預算捍衛中華民國 捍衛台灣 我都支持我願意用生命捍衛中華民國 跟大家一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13136.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13165.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那但是如果說我們存在這樣的一個狀況我不知道他們是什麼心態是有被上層授意就是要先去透露風聲安撫美國安撫某些特定人士還是說他們只是轟行先知道了什麼消息所以說就是想要去搶個獨家但重點是對於我們國軍弟兄我們今天討論這些東西然後結果大家啞口無言不覺得對國軍弟兄是一種傷害嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13176.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13184.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
部長我們繼續加油啦中華民國國防靠大家捍衛但是我們一起努力為中華民國打拚謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請李昆城委員李昆城 李昆城委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請謝一鳳 謝一鳳 謝一鳳委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13222.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13250.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
你好 我們請部長請顧部長是 陳委員好部長好部長 這個烏俄戰爭讓大家知道說無人機的重要但是它是也有限制的那根據瑞典國防院它的分析它指出這個FPV摧毀裝甲的實際效果那通常是在20到25%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13250.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13270.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那會依照操作人員的素質那目標類型還有是否使用像是光線連線等等因素會有一些大幅的變動那也就是說便宜不見得是有效那大量的堆砌也不見得代表說戰力就會按比例增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13271.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13298.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那在現在這種操作特別是FPP的操作上那還是偏向有人操作還是有操作員拿去操作也算是人力密集的工作那過去我們看在初期戰爭的時候他是有效的來去壓制他們的各種他們裝甲兵力等等但是隨著時間的推移那俄羅斯他反制的能力也增加那他也都是在針對這一個操作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13299.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13325.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那再加上電子干擾那還有在可能在城鎮的這個環境下他的訓練負擔還有物質的風險還有命中率都會放大所以說我想請教一下我們現在的無人機假設是以這種第一人稱的這種無人機的這個採購的話那當然現在還是以這個有人操作為主什麼時候大概有可能會成全面的這種AI化的可能性想請教一下部長怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13330.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13346.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那位軍備局局長啊來說個說明啊我們現在針對啊之前我們七月份的五行基美我們會按照我們軍種的作戰的需求那還有結合到我們國內的廠門當然包含到嘉峪亞太啊還有一些國內的 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13347.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13370.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
現在初期 初期當然是可能會用一個人用加工 FPV 就跟委員講的那這個的數量需要人力 我們會循序漸進的到了一年之後或甚至兩年我們就會用群工減少這種人力的操作 用AI去識別 追瞄 甚至用 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13371.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13380.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
Match去多點去遙控我們的G群來做一個配合新的科技的發展這個都在我們的合約的設計當中以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13381.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13408.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
好 謝謝 所以說現階段我們目前這個AI全面AI化還是需要一點時間嗎是那因為我現在得到的訊息是蠻就是不太一樣有些人說現在全世界完全AI化的無人機還沒有有些人說已經有我想請教這個局長到底是現在的科技的這個進展到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13408.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13429.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
恩委員報告全部都是AI化包含群工而言在世界上還沒有嗎成熟度也不是很好還要一點時間所以說我們現在就是做交替就是說先從我們有人控制開始然後慢慢的再往這個全面性群工就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13430.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13446.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那在這個期間這個過渡期我們現在是也算是最最後階段的過渡期那烏克蘭有出現這種無人機的軍團獎勵的制度那就是說他們在實際作戰的時候那如果你有擊中得分那你就可以直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13447.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13467.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
就集中的話得分或者是用換武器的方式他用這種方式用激勵型的方式那去鼓勵無人機的飛手那去拼他的戰果那說制度實施一年之後他的俄軍的傷亡顯著增加兩倍那這方面的做法不知道我們有沒有要採取或者是來仿效 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13468.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13487.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
抱怨我是座議事次長剛剛委員所提示的這些烏克蘭現在在戰場上為了提升他的殺傷率來鼓勵官兵的這種積分的做法我們有在做掌握所以我們現在也藉由跟各個不同國家交流的方式現在也正在觀察無人機競賽 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13488.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13509.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
還有在納進來在不管是在社團的活動去做建置這個我們也納在未來的規劃項目當中那等到我們無人機逐漸籌貨之後希望未來有機會在國內籌辦不管是軍或民之間的這種無人機競賽來去提高我們這些無人機操作手在執行上的這個純熟度 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13510.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13532.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
跟激勵他們的作為非常鼓勵做這件事情那我也希望可以跟教育部合作我講這件事情是因為我們包含西口國中那他們自己都有自己的無人機隊那其實這種競賽的模式從小朋友他最開始就可以培養出對理工的這種喜歡那對這種操作我想都是有幫助的不過他們通常經費都來自於教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13533.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13556.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我是希望說國防部如果可以從他們小朋友們年輕的時候開始就給予一些激勵的話那對未來產業它不見得一定要走國防軍事它也可以在未來如果對這種產業有興趣的話它也可以去我們的民雄航太園區裡面有除了這個中科院之外也有一般招商的地方那就從小就可以培養出這樣子的可能性所以我說我們國防預算編列的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13557.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13578.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那國防教育那特別是從中小學高中這些是不是也可以考量一下給我們一些這樣的預算來去鼓勵我們這些國中同學們我們軍中要辦這個無人機的競賽之外那麼跨部會的這個部分我們基於全民國防的這個理念我們也會來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13579.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13594.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
因為我舉西口作為它是我們嘉義縣的三區的鄉鎮那是全縣最老年化的部分但同時它又有全縣接受最新科技最尖端科技從國中就開始培養了 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13595.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13616.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那我们是希望说未来国防部编列预算的时候可以思考一下是不是可以给这些同学更多的机会所以我们以后就是不用只跟教育部去申请经费让他们去参加无人机的这种比赛或者是辞职培养他们甚至是可以自己维修这些国中的同学是可以自己维修那我们在无人机的这一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13618.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13638.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
籌貨的部分我們是除了說希望它能夠去作戰之外我們也是希望說它可以把它成為一個讓我們的這些訓練能源不僅僅是會飛它未來還可以修還可以換因為它還有籌載所以這些從小都有一些概念的話我想相信對這個產業是會有很大的幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13639.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13666.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
再我還是再提一下就是關於歐洲幾個主要的國家像是英國它近年來對國防預算的編列它是採20 40 40的配置也就是說它還是保有20%的傳統軍事系統在40%它是把攻擊型無人機小型無人機是在複雜地形的戰略目標40%的經費主要是做一些無人機跟協同的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13667.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13681.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以我想請教一下部長在這個國防部的預算當中我們未來在常規火力攻擊型無人機或者是這個潛艇的配置大概是用這樣子的方式嗎清北局說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13683.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13700.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
跟委員報告我們任何一個的配置都是依照連山的一個作戰需求多少的偵察機然後要配多少的攻擊機等等的那我們這一次委員已經有看到我們公告的五行級裡面就有偵察機 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13701.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13729.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那其他四型就一型偵察機其他四型都是攻擊機那假如要用預算比例這個目前就是說它的單價不同FPP大概10萬塊以下可是一架偵察機可能就要好幾百萬以上說明好 謝謝我只是要提醒這也不是全部的國防預算它這244是應該是他們的配置在這一個前線上面的他們在看木克蘭的時候在想說最適化的配置是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13730.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13755.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那另外就是在討論一下這次在這個華沙的安全論壇那謝律生中將也有參與那裡面有一個警示說不要把無人機很多當成是未來的常態他說關鍵能是奪取空中優勢說只有先有空優那再無人機才能夠協同那想請教一下針對這一個看法是不是可以請這個將軍來 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13758.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13773.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
簡單的來跟全民分享為什麼是只有這樣子的說法委員好謝理委員剛剛提問當時在華沙論壇裡面那個General Brilove他所提的是我們要先做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13774.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13799.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
万全的准备那千万不要等到因为敌人永远永有永远都有一个最后决定权他要采取什么样的进攻方式那所以他用这个方式来提醒欧洲国家应该借借着二五战争还有我们台湾的这个这个经验那共同一起来跟我们一起合作我想我想这个是当时Brilliant将军他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13800.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13824.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這個無人機預算的編配要或者是整個歐洲在面對相同的威脅的時候應該要有的一個態度以上 謝謝我剛剛修正一下剛才我提到244是指在無人機跟傳統軍事的配比不是指他們所有的國防預算修正一下我剛才的說法也麻煩修正在議事錄上 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13824.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13853.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那接下來再提到最後我們最近有看到一些國外的這些媒體跟智庫他有提到關於跟烏克蘭跟台灣的類比那就是因為他們在烏克蘭戰爭到現在也三年多了那他們在類比說在導彈跟空襲的狀況之下那他的抗炸能力就是在一些我們重要的軍事堡壘或者是這個軍事基地跟空軍基地 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13854.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13882.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那因為畢竟我們跟烏克蘭的這個土地面積是不成比例的那台灣的面積是烏克蘭的是七分之一那如果排除這些沒有人居住的地方那我們的面積就更小了所以換言之說如果中國的這個戰力跟他們的火力集中在我們的主要的軍事目標上那我們勢必就要面臨他們的飽和式的攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13883.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13902.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那剛才提到的什麼空優等等的就是有些是操之在人就是我們必須要確保說我們的戰鬥機能夠準時或者是說現在應該是沒辦法準時就盡快快速到達但是如果沒有辦法的話那至少要保存現有戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13903.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13922.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那我們現在自身的防禦能力如果面對中共的部署的各型的這種導彈火炮甚至是攻擊型無人機我們有沒有足夠的能力來承擔這一波火的攻擊就是在各個這些空軍基地上面的這些堡壘這些機庫上面想請教一下部長目前狀況為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13924.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13949.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
委員好 空軍常務長跟您做個報告一般我們會做兵力分散部署那我們眾所皆知我們在東部都有這個整個洞庫的一個防禦做一個戰力的保存那我們也持續在建構我們的抗炸機庫在各基地裡面持續在推動 在建置那目前有兩個案子目前正在進行當中那這個就是以中共傳統的這個3000磅的炸彈能夠抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13953.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13974.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
3300磅炸彈的這個機庫為主來持續的推動建構那之前珠網行動就是他們可能是在基地周遭那預先配置這些攻擊型無人機然後攻擊型無人機然後進入機庫裡面甚至有些沒有在機庫裡面的就直接被炸毀那相關的防禦也有跟著一起升級嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13976.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13991.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
我想這個是涉及到我們的這個反滲透跟反情報的一個作用因為中央的行動他應該是要到跨境到俄羅斯的境內裡面然後用短程的無人機來進行攻擊所以這個相關的我們的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13992.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14013.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
可能被侵入到相關的地境內而不被查資這個可能是一個關鍵俄羅斯跟烏克蘭是整個陸地是接壤的我們這個部分當然是一個四面環島的地方所以我們重要當然是在地的 內部的這些可能進行滲透的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14016.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14029.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
如來進行查查來避免被這樣子在相關的這個臨近的地精類做這個特工的攻擊所以這個部分我們是應該要做好這部分的工作好 謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14035.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14060.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
已經登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員林立軍委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答答覆本日會議到此結束結束三會謝謝 |