| IVOD_ID |
17008 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17008 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-05T08:41:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-05T17:12:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
08:30:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc16bff821a9cb407dbffdc7f9e23869cb83051bafb051454b9e00aaece21d19035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續併案審查
（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
（二十一）委員萬美玲等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（二十二）委員廖偉翔等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（二十三）委員林思銘等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（二十四）委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（二十五）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。
（二十六）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:41:07 - 17:12:00 |
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報告委員會初席委員六人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好那麼我們就現在開會首先先請進行報告事項先宣讀上一次的會議的議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1199.594 |
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1223.701 |
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立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第五次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百二十四年十月二十九日星期三上午九時至十一時五十五分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員陳佩玉委員等十三人列席委員洪孟凱委員等九人列席官員行政院人事行政總助人事長蘇俊榮等人主席莊昭及委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1224.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1251.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請行政院人士行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫並備質詢本次會議有委員吳宗憲等十二人提出質詢委員審發會傅坤祺提出書面質詢決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關敬書送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1257.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1279.137 |
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請問各位上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話那麼我們議事錄就確定那現在我先介紹這個目前到場的委員以及應邀列席的官員首先我們先介紹林倩琦委員徐曉新委員陳培余委員吳思瑤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1280.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1302.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
還有鍾瑞雄委員王逸川委員謝謝還有我們的傅坤吉副總召現在也到場那麼緊接著我再來介紹今天列席的官員有考試院的秘書長劉秘書長然後權敘部盛能傑部長還有人事行政總處的蘇俊榮人事長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1306.513 |
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1335.365 |
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好那其餘未及介紹的列席代表我就不再逐一的介紹那另外本次會議機關所提供的資料呢就請委員們參閱列行名單及資料書面都會列入到公報記錄那麼本次會議討論的事項呢排定並按審查那麼總共有委員賴氏寶等31人所拟據的公務人員退休之前撫恤法第37條條文修正案等26案 |
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1338.841 |
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1356.099 |
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我們現在就議程討論事項第一案至第二十案業經113年的12月5日第二會期本會第18次會議的報告及詢答完畢我們的決議就是另外定期繼續審查所以在今天我們就繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1360.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1385.836 |
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由於討論事項有在併入審查的提案那麼現在就尚未進行提案說明的部分可以先進行委員提案說明每位時間三分鐘那麼我們今天總共有萬美玲委員廖偉祥委員林思明委員楊瓊英委員林倩琪委員翁曉琳委員等等有心的案子併入所以都可以進行提案說明 |
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1386.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1391.932 |
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那麼我們就先請林倩琦委員來進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1402.385 |
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1426.484 |
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主席、府院同仁大家好本席提出公務人員退休資遣撫恤法第37條、38條及67條的修正草案以下我來做一個簡短的說明現行的制度自107年施行之後大幅削減了公務人員退休金所得替代率最高由70%降到了60%最低由45%降到了30% |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1428.265 |
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1450.336 |
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並自109年起連續10年每年再減少1.5%同時規定退休金不得隨在職人員的薪俸調整這樣子的設計使退休公務人員的年金在短短幾年內被雙重削減一方面逐年下修另外一方面又與物價和薪資脫鉤導致退休所得持續縮水 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1451.457 |
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1473.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
近年民生物價節節上漲 足跡總數統計已經顯示消費者物價指數連年攀升 各項生活開支不斷增加政府雖然多次調整基本工資與興奉但退休族群的年金券原地踏步 實質購買力大幅下滑對高齡退休者而言 醫療與照護支出年年增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1473.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1499.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
这样子的落差让大家难以维持最基本的生活品质本次修法有三个重点第一个是删除条文当中不再随在职人员薪俸调整之限制让退休俸能够重新与在职薪资联动维持公平合理第二是停止所得替代率逐年下降的机制自113年起不再适用副表三的减幅规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1500.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1503.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第三是將67條當中啟動調整物價指數門檻由5%下修為3%讓物價的這個變動能夠及時反映退休的給付避免通膨侵蝕退休族群的實際所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1516.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1530.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這項修法是回應人民犧牲社會經濟環境變化與恢復制度的一個公義讓貢獻一生的公務人員得以安享晚年是國家應盡的責任以上敬請支持本案競訴審議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1537.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1564.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 謝謝 那麼至於本席所提出的公務人員推出資權撫恤法第67條的提案說明本席在這裡就先不進行提案說明等到待會主條審查的時候再一併的來討論好 那麼接下來我們就緊接著來進行討論事項那討論之前我們就先請議事人員宣讀議程中再併入審查的六案的提案條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1564.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1587.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那預估宣讀時間大概兩分鐘那另外為了便利審查如果有修正動議或附帶決議的提出請儘速將書面送交主席台以利可以很快的應出發現場來進行討論如果已經有收到修正動議的話亦請一併宣讀宣讀之後我們就即刻進行討論那麼現在先請宣讀條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1591.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1613.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
宣讀討論四項公務人員退休之前撫恤法瓜湖二十一至二十六支提案請參閱條文對照表委員廖偉翔等提案第三十七條同國民黨黨團提案委員林思明等提案第三十七條除將第五項默劇修正為因隨在職同等級人員本年供奉之調整重新計算及新增第六項 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1614.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1635.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二項附表三所定之替代率計算方式自中華民國一百十四年一月一日之後停止使用外其餘同線型條文委員楊秋英等提案第三十七條及委員林倩琦等提案第三十七條均同委員賴世寶等三席人提案委員廖偉翔等提案第三十八條同委員賴世寶等二十六人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1636.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1664.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
委員零四名的提案第38條除將第五項默劇修正為因隨同在職同等級人員本年供奉之調整重新計算及新增第六項第二項副表3所定之替代率計算方式自中華民國114年1月1日之後停止使用外企與同現行條文委員楊瓊英等提案第38條及委員林倩琦等提案第38條均同委員賴世寶等26人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1666.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1684.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
委員萬美齡等提案第六十七條除將第一項中斷的消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為達正負百分之二十或重要民生物資指數累計成長率達正負百分之二十及至少每四年修正為每三年外 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1685.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1707.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
應與檢討外其餘同線型條文委員林慶提等提案第67條除將第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為正負3%外其餘同線型條文委員翁曉琳等提案第67條公務人員退休後所領月退休金或移足所領之月付續金或移足年金給付金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1707.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1736.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
與中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正百分之三十應與調整或至少每四年應與調 應與檢討其調整比率由考試院會同行政院考量國家經濟環境政府財政與退府基金準備率定之調整比率不得低於消費者物價指數累計成長率之二分之一但成長率為零或複數時不予調整前項相關執行規定與本法實行細則定之宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1752.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1758.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
修正統一意見修正統一第37條對照先行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1759.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1781.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第37條除增訂第6項為本條附表3有關中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所的替代率這部分不適用之第38條對照先請條文除增訂第6項為本條附表3有關中華民國113年1月1日之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1783.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1809.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之提案委員翁曉琳等宣讀完畢先讀修正動議二第37條對照現行條文除第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1810.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1832.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
增訂後段中華民國一百十四年以後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低一中華民國全年全月全日修正後支付表三認定第三十八條對照對照現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1835.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1863.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第三項 增訂後段 中華民國一百十四年以後 個年度所得替代率不再逐年降低 依中華民國全年全月全日修正之後 支付表三認定第六十七條對照現行條文修正為公務人員退休後所領月退休金或遺族所領之月撫恤金或遺族年金 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1863.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1877.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
及付金額與中央主管主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%及依該成長率調整之提案人黃國昌等宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1881.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1903.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好 那麼因為剛剛陸續進場的有羅志強委員還有審發會委員那麼我們現在就先進行就請問在場委員本案是否就先進入大體討論還是直接進入逐條審查好 那這樣的話我們就先進行大體討論好 那就看看委員們有沒有 哪位要先發言 好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1905.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1932.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我先會議詢問一下因為今天的版本二十幾個版本我想問一下委員會這邊以前我們都會有比較大本的那個條文對照表我不曉得我們有沒有做還是就是看這個全部就是看這個是不是那這個有附剛剛的新的案子都有但是修正動議沒有嗎對 只有修正動議因為今天臨時提了兩個修正動議但是應該內容再印發給大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1935.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1943.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好 那我們就現在先進行大體討論剛剛看到莊瑞索委員有舉手您先發言嗎是哪位好 那就先請吳思瑤委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1953.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1969.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 今天我們要排審的我剛剛算了一下大概有26個提案那聚焦在三個條文跟副表那這是當然是社會非常關切的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1970.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1989.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
年金改革到底是能夠永續的前進維護世代正義來捍衛職業間的公平或者是年改要走回頭路了呢我想在這裡我們要非常清楚的表達我們會發現這26個提案全數都是國民黨委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1990.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2005.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
沒有民進黨委員的提案我們的立場非常清楚現在的改革版本是我們在2016年之後我們花了將近兩年的時間不管是總統府籌組了年金改革的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2006.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2033.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
或者是在立法院上上屆非常充分的討論的結果而來但是這個上路到現在的年改的這些執行我們必須肯定改革已經有正向的功效不管是在挹注我們的基金我們的責任是要去擬平這個缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2035.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2052.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
絕對不是擴大這個缺口所以在整個執行的狀況不管是有效的尊潔之後然後來挹注回這一個POOL這個基金本身是有正面的效益第二也在他的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2053.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2069.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
相關的成效來呈現也都有更高當初預期的成效都有達到所以說在野黨的委員第一個主張說年改上路了一段時間就要來檢討它的績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2070.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2088.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那麼我們希望與會討論的災難委員們務必請把第九次精算報告後後的那一本仔細的閱讀過再來評論年改的成效如何而不是那後後一本的精算報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2089.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2102.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
提案的委員們完全都不予理會完全都不予專業的討論就直接進入政治的命題就是年改無論如何要停下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2104.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2127.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
要緩下來我想討論的前提立法委員專業的問政請依據事實的數字來討論我們要進行的議案那民進黨團的立場我們認為年改要繼續如果採行國民黨委員的提案不管哪一個議案造成的所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2128.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2148.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
停下來不再緩降造成了三大不公平第一大不公平重退休輕限職也就是現在的退休的平均的不管是公教公務或是教育人員的平均數 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2149.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2173.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
都幾乎可達現職服務與工作崗位的工作同仁大概是七成換言之週休七日可以領得七成現役人員的薪水我們在職場上非常不喜歡一句話叫勞役不均而這就是完全的勞役大不均 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2174.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2178.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
如果再以在業黨委員的版本要讓現職的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2180.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2206.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
加薪跟退休人員的退休分加薪也要綁定的話那就不止勞役不均我們討厭同工不同仇但如果綁定同等加薪的話這更成為惡中之惡不公平中的不公平因為它不只是同工不同仇它是不上工就同仇 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2206.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2229.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以說綁定一起調薪這個部分更要請在野黨的委員要三思所以說重退休輕限職是第一大不公平第二大不公平是我們側重獨厚於公教人員的退服而輕了其他職業別的合理對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2230.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2251.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
重工叫欽勞工欽勞農欽國民年金這些弱勢長者的保險這是跨職業間的不平等就是第二個不公平而當然第三個不公平是如果基金的缺口越來越大了年金停侃了 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2252.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2278.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
最終由政府來負擔那就是轉嫁到全體納稅人來承擔所以基金的缺口全民承擔這是第三大不公平所以三大不公平我們不能夠輕易的草率的透過今天的修法造成社會更劇烈的不正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2279.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2308.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我也要再次强调我们一直希望能够用民生的议题跟角度来看待年改的议案而不要只把它作为一个政治的攻防我为什么说要用民生的角度来看它我们来比看看到底在野党委员所说的要年改就是因为要维持退休生活的基本所需这就不折不扣是民生 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2310.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2329.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那我們來看看維持大家在當今社會認為的基本生活所需的那一個合理性在哪裡在野黨委員說如果再砍退休的同仁沒有辦法維持他的生活了我們來看具體的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2331.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2354.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
公教最低的保障金額退休的金額是三萬八千一百三三萬八千一百三是最低保障金額公教退輔所領的如果以公務人員將近十八萬他的平均退休金額是五零六五六來到五萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2356.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2363.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
如果是教育人員更高一些14.1萬的教育同仁他的退休縫的平均值是57973 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2366.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2390.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
大家用當今社會的思維在場有非常多年輕的世代不管你是20歲、30歲、40歲如果說你一個月50656或57973的這一個穩定的退休縫的收入真的難以維持你的基本生活所需嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2391.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2408.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這是第一個命題我們就回到實際的生活脈絡的所需的那個界定是什麼第二個來看不同職業別如果公務人員覺得平均領五萬五萬七都很難生活了 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2409.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2429.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那我们来看看劳工朋友人数是公教的20倍领劳保劳退的劳工朋友们平均是25500元左右的月退奉等于是公教人员的二分之一不到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2431.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2444.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
勞工只領25479不到公教人員的一半那勞工怎麼辦呢老農有51.5萬的老農平均月領是81108110元 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2449.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2466.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這相較之下 數額天差地別 更不要說保我們國民年金保險有206 207萬的這些弱勢長者一個月領不到4000塊 他們的退休保障所領取每個月只有3933 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2468.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2489.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以說在野黨的委員一直在說公教人員五萬四五萬七不夠基本生活所需那我們服務的絕對是跨族群跨世代的國人那勞工怎麼辦老農怎麼辦國民年金的這些保護怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2491.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2512.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
國家的資源有限所以民進黨這一次只要在國家裁員可以調度的機會我們都希望能夠創造對於國保對於老農對於勞保增加它的各項提升退休金撥補的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2513.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2538.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以民進黨提出了345億佔行條例就是因應才化法沒有辦法分配的那個數額拿來補給勞工補給國保的長者所以我們有具體的作為我要強調在國家資源有限的狀況之下怎麼樣想方設法去抿平我剛剛說的資源相對更被剝奪職業間更失衡的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2540.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2562.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
也向在野黨的委員報告民進黨團昨天也已經提出國民年金法的修正草案希望政府未來對於國民年金這些弱勢長者的保費中央地方一起來合理分擔所以我們不是指對於公教的部分來跟在野黨的委員就停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2563.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2590.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
年金改革的部分做討論做攻防我們更進一步用民生的議題來看待所以我們負責任的針對老保的老農的國保的所做的部署的部分我們有其他的提法案的配套而不是指如在野黨的委員們你們只就公教來討論他的年金的福利所以在看待一個政策要全面 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2591.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2618.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們大家都服務選民我們來自於基層我相信我們要為人民來發聲捍衛的不是只有公教的族群我們同樣面對人數更多的勞工老農國保的長者們這是我們看待這個議案非常重要的一個切入點如果我們只是就公教的議題來看公教的年改要不要停下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2619.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2640.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那麼就會只落入一個國家資源分配比不公更不公的那一個BIOS那個偏差的討論所以我希望今天大家在大體的部分能夠有更理性更充分的對話畢竟條文五個等一下如果進到條文的時候可能大家在條文的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2641.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2655.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
都會不拖我們在大體的一些辯證我再一次呼籲請用民生的課題來看待今天的修法如果一旦讓改革停了不只公教人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2656.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2677.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
同一個職業別的世代不均被加劇跨職業別的資源失衡更被撕裂了這個社會的福利資源所以我會爭取等一下還有發言的機會好嗎那我認為這只是我今天的開場白請主席給我們多元的討論的時間那先就這樣來分享我對這幾個條文的看法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2683.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2711.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好 謝謝 那麼今天在介紹張啟凱委員跟吳宗憲委員也都到場那請接著請羅委員發言剛剛聽到吳世耀委員的發言我就用兩個字來形容 叫冷血很簡單今天真的公務員有像吳世耀說的這麼美好國考的報考人數不會從馬政府時候最高的50萬掉到去年的16萬人高普考人數也是不斷地下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2712.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2741.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我也考過高考當年我考高考入取率是6%你知道114年高考入取率是多少嗎53.41%如果說今天公職人員公務人員還像你說的是這麼好這麼美好這麼棒的一個行業我告訴你今天報考人數不會掉到剩下五成七成以下直接掉到五成七成 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2742.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2767.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
為什麼 就是你民進黨執政 你就是在踐踏公務人員嘛踐踏不只是公務人員的尊嚴 也踐踏公務人員的退休保障啊我知道啦 民進黨向來只會酬庸 不會用文官啦所有的官都是只用自己酬庸的官 吃香喝辣前一陣子爆出吳英寧也是一件事 社會大會罵翻了才只好把吳英寧這個人事撤回 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2767.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2792.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
只有510嗎 一大堆酬庸人士沒有關係 你高層要吃得肥滋滋但是文觀你有沒有好好去想過文觀是這麼多年來我們台灣經濟發展的命脈根本奇蹟的創造者過去沒有這些優秀專業中立認真負責認識的文觀台灣哪來的十大建設啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2793.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2813.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
台灣哪來的科學園區台灣哪來的台積電台灣哪來的各種所謂的人才的培育結果到了民進黨執政的時候你把文官拆到大家連考試都不願意的時候你還跟我講說照顧文官就是來去剝削其他職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2816.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2839.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
是這種態度的執政者 你叫文官怎麼幫你們效命啊怎麼去為國家拼建設沒有好的人才 請問國家如何支撐 何以為繼你還可以這麼冷血的跟我講說這是財政問題 那奇怪了老保先舉手支持喔 我贊成老保撥補喔民進黨遇到老保的虧損 就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2841.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2864.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
撥補是改革啊 撥補是改革撥補是改革 民進黨的名言啊老闆撥補五千多億 羅志強舉雙手雙腳贊成啊因為勞工很辛苦啊 值得撥補啊可是遇到了公務人員 遇到了教職人員就說你們是什麼米蟲 你們不值得我們不可以撥補 國家會破產 基金會不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2869.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2894.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這不是雙重標準 什麼是雙重標準這不是赤裸裸踐踏公務人員 踐踏教職人員什麼叫赤裸裸踐踏公務人員跟教職人員所以不要再編造一些所謂的那些數字今天公務員 公教人員在這個所謂的民進黨打的年金改革大旗之下已經所得替代率降到七成以下了 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2895.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2923.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
在這種情況之下他沒有要求回復到2018年以前的水準是非常卑微的要求只是拜託不要再砍了我還是真心的奉勸今天民進黨如果今天我們的高考入取率跟我在報考高考的時候一樣6%大家搶破頭你可以跟我講國民黨 民眾黨你們的提案停砍年金是沒道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2924.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2935.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
很吸引人嘛 大家都要嘛如果說今天我們看到政府的缺額比方台北市政府缺額率已經超過一成了缺額8300人 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2937.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2963.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
如果我們看到今天教師沒有說今天找不到教師的問題教師擠破頭你跟我講說公教人員待遇很好你跟我講公教人員待遇太好了好到不公平我覺得你還有說服力喔今天是嗎公教人員要求的只不過是你把我血跟肉吸乾之後你留我一個骨頭在手上吧不要連骨頭都砍了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2965.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2986.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
回到一個根本的問題 今天停砍所謂的年金停砍所得替代率 那是真改革國家人才已經崩壞崩盤了啦照你們這樣去搞下去 你乾脆說今天所得替代率砍到變零不是最好嗎國家連錢都不用出省了啦是這樣嗎是這個道理嗎不客氣的講 民進黨講白了就是把公教 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2993.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3007.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
當作所謂的敵人啦把公教視為敵人啦踩著公教 踐踏公教然後呢 重用你們仇傭的肥貓們這就是今天民進黨的執政生態 以上好 接下來請張啟凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3014.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3041.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
然后之后是我们干脆用政党好不好就是请不要再欺负不要再霸凌我们的公教人员了刚刚吴思雅吴委员的开场牌我听了是非常难过的为什么不能够先想一想这段时间因为民进党政府的浪费跟弊案浪费了多少钱最近这一两个礼拜最有名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3042.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3069.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
就是海軍的一個局長說 預算能編多少多編一點能騙多少多 多騙然後呢 編出來預算是怎麼樣子一瓶水120塊錢一張桌子250萬一張椅子5萬塊被抓到之後連國防部長顧立雄自己都覺得不好意思吃太多了 吃到後來都吐出來了後來國防部這次的任性特別預算 砍掉多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3071.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3089.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
省下了五十億 省下五十億耶 本來要騙走的錢耶這些錢為什麼不能好好省下來 不要浪費 不要弊案來照顧我們的公教人員呢第二個 錯誤的能源政策 買了全世界最貴的光電光是最近這幾年撥補了三次 給台電的就三千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3098.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3125.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
公教退休人員的退休金被砍了已經第七年了大家知道省下多少錢嗎2700多億波普台電的錢拿來都掛了都是因為民進黨一個錯誤的能源政策所以少浪費 少錯誤的能源政策 少弊端不只公教人員可以被好好照顧全台灣民眾都可以好好被照顧為什麼那麼冷血這樣對待公務人員為什麼要這麼霸凌他呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3128.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3155.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
而且因為民進黨推了年改的時候忽略很多東西 很多重點像貨遺症全部都跑出來了受害不是只有公教人員全體民眾都受害了參加公務員考試的 國考的從年改開始到去年底一年降了17萬人大家不去考 不去當公務員了國家人才進不去公務體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3156.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3180.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
國家發展面受到影響傷害不是全國的民眾嗎有拿到老師教師證的以前啊 年改之前拿到教師證100個有70個會進入學校到了去年剩下55%少了15%的人跑掉了教育受到影響 學校受到影響我們的小孩都受到傷害了 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3183.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3212.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以看到的是從教育 小孩 國家的發展甚至當初在訂的時候沒有注意到高齡者 年長者退休以後的生活所需我們從前年主計處才發現說這很嚴重開始做我們高齡家庭的CPI結果發現高齡者家庭的每年的CPI比一般的家庭多了相近 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3213.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3237.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
一趴左右年紀越大 高齡的家庭 醫療上的需求很多的照顧他們基本的生活手續所以政府開始要做這個了我們發現了高齡者需要的之前沒有被照顧到那小孩子 年輕人 撫養的負擔沒有做嗎年輕人沒有受害嗎所以今天一方面 我們是在捕破王 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3239.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3267.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
14個這7年都發現了非常多的問題所以今天我們再提出來沒有要恢復像以前耶公教已經被砍了多少 三分之一退休的所得替代率已經被砍了三分之一 該停了吧而且整個後遺症出來是連年輕人連教育 國家發展都受影響了所以我們今天民眾黨非常具體的提出三大要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3270.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3296.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們沒有回溯沒有說要恢復到之前的被砍的可是從今年開始請停砍因為被砍的三分之一已經非常多而且太多後遺症出來第二個也很重要跟勞工一樣嘛職業是要平等的嘛民進黨已經跳票了當初說要連改的時候是各個行業別都有勞工沒有改我們贊成而且我們贊成撥補給勞工可是要平等其他跟他報告最近這三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3298.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3324.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
最近這三年勞保每一年政府用我們人民納稅錢撥補多少錢一年都1300億最近這三年就3900億喔可是公教人員每年該撥補的錢全部都是短缺的所以我們只要求是要平等的第二件事情要做我們繼續撥補勞工可是相對的公教該撥補的要足爾只要是公教的撥補是足爾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3325.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3349.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
就可以永續發展 沒有破產問題第三個也很重要大家都沒有注意到我們的退府基金這個水庫啊最近水位是高的喔以前當初為什麼要連改第一個政府說財政不好我們財政現在變好了耶107年在連改的時候中央政府總計算的規模是多少一兆九千億 今年多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3350.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3378.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
今年已經快到三兆了 明年超過三兆耶第二個 以前稅收短縮最近這幾年每一年都超增稅收去年超增了五千兩百多億所以我們最近才要發億萬塊的現金啊所以你當初連改的那個基礎已經都不在了嘛國家財政變好了那你為什麼要繼續砍第二個 你當初說要改你說退伍基金快破產了 績效不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3379.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3405.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
以前當初在改的時候 績效大概是2%左右大家知道最近這五年 平均的退伍基金的績效是多少平均超過9% 從2%變成是9%所以在年改的時候 退伍基金裡面規模5000多億現在是上兆欸所以大的水庫國家財政變好了小的水庫 整個退伍基金的水庫也變好了當初年改的理由現在根本不存在 為什麼要繼續砍呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3408.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3434.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我請民進黨好好看一看你們當初改革的都跳票了第一個基礎不見了大水庫有了小水庫國家財政跟基金的績效都已經變好了請你們去注意這個點第二個更重要我們贊成撥補勞工繼續撥補可是相對的我們在依法上面該給公教人員的撥補要撥補完撥補好以後這個就沒有破產的問題就說永續發展另外提一個剛剛講第三點我把它講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3435.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3448.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們的基金的績效已經從以前的2%變成現在最近這5年的9%了那依照精算的結果我們的基金只要成長我們的投資績效有7%就不會破產了大家知道嗎你隨便去買那個買那個台灣50 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3458.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3482.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以這一兩年都超過7%如果是政府拿了退休人員的錢去操作這個基金你還買不到7%那你要負責啊要不然最簡單你就拿去全部買台灣五十放在那裡柯文哲之前還找過幾個會計師去算過他說最近這30年來啊最近這30年如果不是政府去亂搞這當然包括以前所有的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3483.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3491.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
以前要護盤嘛 對不對現在沒有 現在比較公開透明啊他說會計師去算以前如果不要這樣護盤你去買一個比較基優的至少有6到7%的6到7%的這個成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3495.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3513.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以這樣一路我談下來第一個 當初臨改要砍公務員的財政不好基金 績效不好這已經都是改革完了那我們今天非常具體的提出三個解決方案第一個 不要再砍了可是我們不會去往前追這是一個點照顧我們的公教人員不要再霸凌他第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3514.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3539.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
趕快依法來撥補第三個 維持該有的基金的經營績效因為過去五年就已經9%了在經營績效只要在7%以上都沒有問題所以請民進黨不要一直造謠而且沒有注意到整個實際狀況的這個改變你們現在停留在106年跟107年而且你們要講的勞工的這個改革也沒有改嘛我們認為說勞工我們現在不用改了可是進攻叫趕快停止砍好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3543.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3572.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
好那接下來請吳宗憲委員發言那個主席還是說我們交叉這樣子大家能夠對我可以先讓好那我想要不然我們今天就採那個政黨交叉的方式對這樣比較能夠意見交換好的那接下來再請是不是可以讓沒有發言過的民進黨委員先發言因為我想說我們是不是大家都先今天進行第一輪好好好ok好 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3573.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3596.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那就請吳氏耀委員好 不好意思我剛剛已經破題我說我希望用民生的議題來看待這個修法但是顯然在野黨委員都要用政治的攻防來面對我第一輪的發言大家先理後兵我從頭到尾非常理性的講實際的數字執行的績效但如果在野黨委員都要用這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3598.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3622.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
比較激烈的政治的語言我是呼籲不要啦大家理性的來探討但只是非常遺憾剛剛的在野黨兩位委員的發言從頭到尾我聽到了很多都是形容詞顯然兩位委員對於這一本張其凱委員講了又跑了這一本第九次的精算報告厚厚的290頁289頁請問在野黨委員你們哪一位看過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3626.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3640.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
要評論這個政策年改的績效現在要來檢討這精算報告這是當一個立法委員最基本的專業需求請問哪一位委員看過了我認為應當沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3642.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3668.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
如果你們有看過就不會講剛剛都是空泛的形容詞沒有具體的數字沒有具體的改革成效的任何一個具體的陳述很抱歉我在羅志祥委員的發言我在張啟凱委員的發言我只聽到很多的形容詞而且是非常不理性的形容詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3669.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3689.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你們只會說誰在踐踏誰你們只會說誰把公教當敵人你們還扯到肥貓還扯到能源政策還扯到國防還扯到米蟲這都是你們講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3690.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3716.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
都從你們的嘴巴出現這些我們民進黨來希望理性的來討論就數字論數字就法案論法案但是我都聽到了空泛的形容詞因為你們沒有做功課所以講不出具體的內容第二個只會顧左右而言他羅志強委員不要走啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3718.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3745.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
不要只會顧左右而言他東扯西扯不敢來講這個精算報告具體的告訴大家我們改革縱然有成效但是不能終止不能暫停因為會功虧一簣因為會整座海撩撩如果對的是只做一半那就是功虧一簣 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3747.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3774.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
剛剛我也要謝謝所以兩位委員現在不在場我謝謝羅志強委員跟張啟凱委員至少肯定了年改有成效所以才會說現在的水位回升了現在的公教的退休相對權益被保障了這都是正向肯定我們推動改革的成效但是前提是不能因為改革有成效改革就要停 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3775.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3795.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
如果改革有成效 正要繼續達到它最終更好的原始設定的成果不是嗎而不是功虧一簣 從頭再來整組海料料所以不要顧左右而言它也不要只會用空泛的形容詞來轉移焦點 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3798.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3812.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我要具體回應剛剛兩位委員講到跟今天主題勉強相關的叫做公務人員如何讓他們讓鐵飯碗依舊成為大家有信心有尊嚴的職場讓鐵飯碗繼續是鐵飯碗 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3817.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3843.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那就要對現役工作同仁的權益擴大保障才對誰踐踏了公教人員民進黨從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統我們為公教人員調了四次心調了14%都是要照顧現役工作人員公教人員讓他們在這個職場有更好的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3844.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3870.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
願意投入這一個為國家奉獻的工作崗位民進黨調了4次14%國民黨馬英九只調了一次只有3%誰在踐踏公教人員呢羅志強委員每次都說公教人員報考率低就是因為砍年金這完全是錯誤的診斷這是悖論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3874.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3887.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
如果大家認為對於公教退休的保障不夠好那我們要思考的除了保障退休公教人員更要保障的不是現在服務的現職公教人員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3888.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3913.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
如果停侃的年金改革終止了我們的公務人員的這個基金只能再撐17年教育人員的基金只能再撐14年換言之未來17年後14年後服務於公教人員退休的這些相對年輕的世代他連退休金都領不到了耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3915.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3927.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這才是真的讓鐵飯碗不再鐵飯碗對於公務人員的退休保障完全強害破壞了就是因為你們在推這個停止改革的惡法 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3929.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3949.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
要保障公務人員就是人人的退休金看得到領得到這是國家的責任如果為了保障現在你們認為退休的公教人員的福利而是以犧牲現役工作人員的權益來達成這就大大不可啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3950.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3979.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
真的不可以為了要保障提升退役公務人員的權利而以換取犧牲現職公務人員的權利這是絕對不可以的事所以不要錯誤的診斷問題我記得人事總署在上一次質詢的時候就已經清楚的回答了羅志強委員的命題為什麼公教人員的報考率確實下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3980.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4000.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
新的时代不同职业的选择更多元现在的经济发展经济活动更蓬勃大家可能跟过去国民党执政的时候经济发展疲乏的那个状态大家选择做公务人员有起码的生活保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4001.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4023.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
在現在經濟活動經濟成長台灣回到亞洲四小龍之手的時候大家願意在多元的職場的選擇去做出不同於以往的選擇我們都尊重上次這是我們職總人總的同仁清楚的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4024.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4051.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
羅志強委員的提問不要簡化而且是錯誤的診斷現在公教人員報考率偏低把他直接單一化扭曲為因為年金改革這完全是文不對題這完全就是錯誤的悖論如果說年金改革是踐踏 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4052.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4079.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
公務人員那世界各國都在踐踏公務人員囉大家看看我手上的這一個數字這是世界各國這幾年都在面對年改的課題世界各國都在面對如何來緩解公教的退休撫恤的財政壓力各國都在改年改 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4080.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4106.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
而且一改再改是越改越嚴而不是像我們現在上路五六年要越改越放鬆走回頭路如果以OECD國家的所得替代率的平均值是50.7%OECD國家所得替代率50.7比台灣還低得多 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4107.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4130.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
比台灣的所得替代率OECD國家低了28%左右也就是台灣的所得替代率高於OECD國家大概28%因為我們的本縫兩倍作為分母計算要乘以1.18倍才是實質的退休軍公教領取的實質月退我要講這個數字的補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4132.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4153.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以世界各國都在年改世界各國都在踐踏公務人員嗎絕對不是這樣反而台灣比起世界各國我們更想方設法要照顧公教人員的權益我們的所得替代率高於OECD國家28%左右這是事實這是數字所以我們再一次呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4155.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4173.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們理性專業的講數字而不是講空泛的形容詞我們負責任的來講條文的內涵改革的成效以及終止改革的負面效益我們都來講實在扎實的拿一點料出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4174.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4200.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
不要只是堆砌著花而不實作物百出的形容的語彙不敢面對自己這個修法造成的基金破口更大的問題年改基金破產了誰負責17年後14年後公務人員教育人員領不到退休金的話今天提案的這些委員們能負責嗎最後一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4204.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4221.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
在野黨的委員們不要對不起馬英九國民黨的委員不要對不起馬英九馬英九說的年金不改明天就會後悔當時馬英九在講這番話的時候羅志強正是他的總統府副秘書長年金就是一台指使的列車 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4227.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4252.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
前方有一個大懸崖如果現在不改革火車持續向前開這台火車一定會墜崖這是馬英九過去說的羅志強就是站在他身邊的總統府副秘書長今天您該走回頭路國民黨人對不起馬英九今天民眾黨張其凱也好黃國昌也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4254.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4279.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
停砍年金也是對不起柯文哲不要忘了柯文哲曾經痛罵反年改的團體是王八蛋這是柯文哲說的不要忘了黃國昌曾經過去認為年改要趕快上路年改改得不夠多砍得不夠大這是黃國昌過去的主張不要為了政治利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4281.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4306.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
而踐踏世代正義不要為了政治利益而出賣自己過去的主張跟靈魂更不要為了藍白河把好不容易有成效的年改讓它尬然停止走回頭路再一次提醒大家發言的時候請講實際的內容不要再講這些阿利布達的形容詞了 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4310.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4320.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因為我們今天之後可能還會要進行到主條審查所以我希望大家大體發言的時候能夠更精簡一些接下來我們請吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4323.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4348.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 謝謝主席我想這個當然我是在這邊先提到一個剛剛那個吳世耀委員說現在台灣是亞洲四小龍之首在民進黨英明的領導之下但是我想說當然我不知道說這個的判斷標準是什麼啦當然我予以尊重但是我看到的是目前我們台灣的薪資中位數是不到4萬塊那日本的薪資中位數大概是在7萬多台幣新加坡是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4350.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4378.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我看到有不同的文獻大概是在16到19萬之間那也就是我們的薪資中位數是日本的二分之一是新加坡的五分之一那我們現在變成亞洲四小龍之首那當然您的那個數據怎麼來當然我都予以尊重但我只是說我光求薪資中位數這個跟我們人民有切身關係的薪資中位數來看似乎感覺不是那麼貼切那第二個我再提到一個點就因為我們今天回到我們今天的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4380.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4395.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我想之前那個吳孝遠有一次在院會的時候我記得有一次在院會發言裡面有提到就是有關這個年改的部分大法官是認為這個是合憲的但是我當時還有我現在要跟各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4396.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4424.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
一個人他到政府來任職公務員他領的薪水其實相較於外面常常是會比較低那我拿我自己當例子我自己在當檢察官的時候那個時候的收入絕對比我去外面當律師低很多但是我為什麼願意來擔任檢察官因為他有一個很好的退休制度讓我知道我在退休之後生活不會受到太大的影響所以我寧願花我所有年輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4425.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4444.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
最精華的這個時間為國家奉獻但是如果有一天國家告訴我我退休我老的時候國家告訴我說這個當初講的不算那如果今天是發生在私人企業我覺得早就鬧大事政府都介入但是今天是面對國家公務員的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4444.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4464.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
現在的政府卻有另外一套講法那時候吳少偉委員說這個大法官宣告是合憲那我認為這個部分我想跟各位委員報告他只講了一半我認為對國人的說法不能這樣子因為大法官的意思是說請看四字七八二號他講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4465.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4484.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
有關這個退休金是有信賴保護的我先說明有信賴保護的必要性而且信賴保護是法律的原理原則但是當國家面臨跟公益有重大關係的時候這時候信賴保護才會被限縮我想這個釋字是這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4485.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4507.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以當我們今天如果我們現在國家面臨重大的危難我們國家都沒有錢了那我們請公務員共體時間來砍掉他們的退休金這個是符合四字大法官的認定我們先姑且不論大法官這個說這個符合性愛保護原則要被限縮合不合理我先不去論這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4508.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4534.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
而是我們如果依照四日七八二號是當國家有面臨重大公益挑戰重大危難等等的情況下你去砍公務員的薪水這個信賴保護是會被限縮這個沒有問題但是我是請教各位過去四年五年我們超收一兆多甚至民進黨一直很洋洋得意說我去年超收五千多億那個稅金那這個情況下我想請問我們信賴保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4537.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4551.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
為什麼要被限縮呢你從大法官的四字七八二號來看這個時候 這個時間點既然我們的政府好棒棒讓國家可以超收五千多億稅金的時候那就不符合七八二號的說法了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4552.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4578.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以你不能就一句說782號說信貸保護可以被限縮那這個現在就可以782號所說的信貸保護限縮是有前提的是國家有如此的公益需求的時候才可以這麼做但是今天看起來稅收上面其實是超收這幾年都超收那也是民進黨政府引以為傲的超收那這個時候你再去做限縮其實是違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4579.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4583.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
四四七八号的他的精神所以第一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4584.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4610.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我從法制面先跟各位先做這個報告那不要說我們都在講政治口水這個就是法制面還有我剛剛願意讓吳孝文先講就是我覺得我們現在是大體討論討論就是一來一往一來一往所以我願意讓他先講我是善意的希望把這個拿出來討論所以第一個法制面目前我覺得我們並沒有782號所說的有這個公益需求因為我們去年有超收5000多億的稅金 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4614.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4636.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
剛剛旗開委員他是從國家一些錯誤政策浪費的角度去說明說浪費了那麼多錢就這個小錢你卻要省不給國人剛剛強哥有提到就是相同的東西勞保卻可以撥補但是公務員卻不能撥補這在制度上面變成雙標我覺得他們都有他的一定的論述但是我從法制面跟各位報告就是剛剛那個狀況再回過頭來我剛剛提到的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4641.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4658.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你像現在我自己做過24年的公務員那24年的薪水真的領得比我同期一起考上但是去擔任律師的人或是去公司裡面擔任法務長的人少很多但是司法官比他們司法官比律師更難考 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4659.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4678.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那為什麼你更難考的考試考上之後我又寧願領比較低的薪水因為我就是覺得我希望退休有一個很穩定的保障但是我退休的時候政府跟我說當初講了不算所以當然公務員對這東西會有意見我覺得這難免的那當然還有另外一個狀況就是不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4679.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4693.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
越來越差的制度越來越不受尊重越來越沒有尊嚴的公務員本來你要錄取到一流的人才就不容易所以我覺得現在的狀況變成說報考的人越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4694.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4710.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那當國家的公務員他沒有辦法招收到一流人才的時候那是不是我們國家的戰力會受損當我們國家的力量受損之後其實受害的是全民當一個二流三流四流的人來萬一是這種人來 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4711.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4726.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
主導國家的整個方向的時候我們這政策很難出去跟大家比拼那自然我們的經濟狀況也會不好國家將來也會越暗淡所以世界上很多國家他們的公務員的選才他們是希望走精英主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4727.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4743.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
他們希望好的人才一流人才都到政府來服務制定出最好的政策然後做最好的政策執行者然後讓國家更好但是我們今天似乎是背道而馳那這個的想法是什麼我覺得一個很簡單就是因為某一個執政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4744.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4757.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
某一個政黨他覺得勞工的票多公務員的票少所以我當然是搞票多的那一塊等於又把所有的國家政策又走去政治選舉的思考我覺得這是不聰明的再來還有一個就是從經濟面來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4760.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4782.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我要跟各位報告因為這段時間我所了解到跟我去問了很多人他們說一個狀況就是當年改之後其實公務員他們因為沒有錢用了他們錢可能要去繳房貸要繳什麼所以本來誤以為他退休可能有這一筆錢的存在但是現在他沒有了所以他必須把日常生活很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4783.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4808.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
基本的消費他全部都不敢消費比如說他不敢去他去他們附近的一些小餐館或什麼他不敢去或是他去的次數減少或是旁邊的麵店什麼他可能每天他可能希望家裡要吃五顆蛋但現在他只能改吃三顆等等的這些議題會反映到因為他收入降低他自然支出就會減少這個是一個很基本的一個概念但是我們要想的是當 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4810.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4836.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這些社會最中間分子最穩定的一個族群他們的消費力減少的時候那接下來他帶來的是什麼他帶來的其實是產業也會受影響也就是說譬如我剛剛講一個當我消費以雞蛋來說當我消費降低的時候他受影響的是不是只有那個公務員退休公務員而是包括譬如說賣雞蛋的小賣商他也會減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4839.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4863.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
貨運 物流業者 中盤商 大盤商其實它影響是一整個產業鏈的消費都會縮減當世界上任何一個國家當它消費縮減的時候國家經濟本來就會變差這個是一貫的所以當你覺得說我要砍它的年金讓它花費變少的時候其實它一定會連動到影響到國家的經濟那一整個產業鏈的繳稅也會變少 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4865.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4890.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以當我省了一點點給這些人的年金我卻造成國家稅收減少那請問一下誰獲利呢所以你不能一切就是從政治角度來看你要從經濟學的角度再去思考這個點所以不能很簡單的就把所有的問題就切在一個最小的說退休的領多少 現值的領多少怎麼可以這樣所以我們要把它砍光 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4891.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4898.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
所以我剛剛是從法治面從我覺得經濟面還有信賴保護面去說明最後我還是要強調一個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4900.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4922.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我覺得真正沒有做好的是政府因為好的政府他的好的施政讓國家經濟變好之後其實是讓現職的人的薪水增加我們鄰近的國家就是這個狀況所以大學畢業生的起薪一直在往上而我們停滯不前 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4923.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4939.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
當我們停滯不前政府沒有辦法營造一個最好的經濟環境的時候政府做什麼事情他不是想我怎麼樣讓國家能夠更富有讓國家經濟能夠更好他不是在想這個他是在腦子動到退休人身上我砍退休的人的錢就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4940.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4962.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我在職的人政府的那個義務是增加在職的勞工或公務員的薪水能夠節節高升這是政府的責任然後保障退休人原本我跟他講好的錢好的政府是這樣但是我們現在政府不是他沒有辦法讓現職的人的薪水節節高升 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4962.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4990.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
他讓大家去鬥退休的這些人所以這是我覺得不對的地方真正好的政府不應該這樣子做你講到最後我就覺得說不要去製造對立不要去製造現職的人跟退休人對立不要去製造勞工跟公務員的對立大家都在這個國家一起團結努力我為什麼要去製造這樣的對立所以政府的責任還是要創造台灣的經濟奇蹟 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4993.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5015.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
讓大家大學畢業生讓所有的人的薪水往上調我們薪資中位數已經多少年停在那個地方了當鄰近的國家薪資中位數一直往上拉的時候我難過的是我們薪資中位數還是卡在那裡那這時候再回過頭去鬥退休的時候為什麼退休領這麼多我覺得這不是這個只是造成族群的堆立不是在解決國家經濟財政的問題好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5020.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5048.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好 接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席剛聽了吳委員的一些話從法制面 從經濟面好多方面去論述這個其實都是一種精英的一個傲慢我是比較有跟你一樣不一樣的一個看法這一題如果先把政黨你給把它立場給拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5049.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5058.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
不同階級的人拿掉大家合理的來看待的話可能稍微就可以聚焦了年金呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5060.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5083.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
基金其實它是一個水庫的一個概念這個水庫各個領域裡面它都是一個專屬的一個水庫但它不會是全民的共同的一個水庫如果說一個社會讓繳稅的人比領的人還要苦的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5085.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5095.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我認為這個制度就確實大家好好的來去做一個形式以主計總數公告113年民間平均性的薪資來換4.64萬那你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5101.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5129.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
到2024年65歲以上的人口448萬來看的話退休公務人員平均退的你說31%都超過5.5萬你月退是50395那你退休教育人員平均是57000那約有68%超過57000大家剛才比較了勞工說比較低好像是政府特別民進黨政府特別偏向他 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5131.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5159.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
可是你去想想看任何一個政府從過去到現在你幾乎在對待勞工的時候你會看你退休勞工你就一百九十九萬勞保加勞退的部分平均是兩萬五千那你再去做比較的話如果要提那個相對剝奪感的話五十萬農民老農津貼八一一一零大家很清楚的那你國民年金的部分一百五十萬多少三九九六 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5160.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5181.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那這些老人 國民情靈的老人年金幾乎多數差不多不足八千那我要講的就是說剛剛吳偉遠特別去強調大法官4至782號他從法制面來提出為什麼說這個是偏頗的原因大法官確實是提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5183.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5194.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個信賴保護原則他不是絕對他不是絕對但我們都期待政府的保證或者法制面都可以維持一個穩定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5195.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5215.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那政府當然到最後一定是對於這個整個退伏這個基金付那個保證的一個責任但是你解釋上你並沒有去排除基金你收支如果不足的時候政府可以去採另外的一個其他的因應的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5216.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5239.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
譬如說你去調整這個撥繳費用的一個基準或者說延後退休的給付跟啟資的一個年齡或者說你來拉長平均這個本縫的計算的一個期間甚至於調整整個退休所得替代率等開源節流的一個手段這個為的是幹什麼呢就是說來增加退伍基金的一個財源提高這個支付的一個能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5240.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5251.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
基金責任要由政府負最大的責任這個大家都知道啦但是也必須要你現職跟退休者共同去負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5252.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5280.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
因為那個水庫是專屬的它不是全民的所以你如果說全數轉嫁給全體納稅人我看這個也不對我看這個也不對所以大法官施治780的話我樂於看到在海黨的朋友來引用但是那個解釋都只是解釋了一半這是不對的這是不對的那另外我剛剛為什麼提到說一個社會不能讓繳稅的人比零的人還要苦的一個原因就從剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5282.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5303.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
各個職業類別的你去把它看到他退休以後他所領的去做比較你會很大的一個相對的一個波動感所以這個不是砍年金是把這個制度你怎麼樣去把它補否則的話大家都認為就領啊政府就你一直給啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5304.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5314.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
政府就去投資像張七凱講的一年就有幾趴有為的政府你再有為的政府你預測不到昨天的股市跟今天的股市會大跌 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5316.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5336.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好日子不是每天都會有我想這個改革倒也不是什麼對軍公教的一個不敬你被改革到了一定是不爽如果是我當然也有所不爽但是你要對所有的國民去做一個負責的話你真正要去照顧的是讓每一個退休的人能夠安老而不是讓部分的人過得很安穩年金它是一個水庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5341.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5350.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
但是它可不是一個提款機所以以上我這樣講就是說你從各個職業別去看的話差距太大而且你這個改革如果你去走回頭路的話就會有相對剝奪感 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5368.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5396.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
國民黨朋友 在野黨朋友你現在比較的是跟過去國民黨一黨專政過去的年金設計的數字來做比較你如果用全世界的一個OECD的國家去做索德蒂大利做比較的話這一點你就很難去看很難去看待為什麼別的國家是如此那你偏偏是很偏執的去講說我一定要回到以前再把它想想看 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5397.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5420.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
如果說大家都不管了反正誰去執政你就有這個責任好像大家玩這個俄羅斯輪盤一樣就想繼續唸什麼人要執政就投給什麼人輸這個就是不想重新永遠不想執政的一個概念否則一個國家如果真的是要永續的話我們設這樣的一個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5421.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5448.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
倒不是為了砍誰你被改革到人痛苦的時候那我們在立法院在討論的時候是不是也該去想一想說這樣的一個制度裡面是為了一個永續那你一直在拉哩拉扎的講說哪裡浪費掉哪裡浪費掉該浪費掉的你就是要去監督啊浪費掉的人就是到最後會被民眾來懲罰但是這個制度改革不管是誰誰都必須要讓它繼續下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5451.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5466.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
你說過去國民黨在執政的時候到現在的一個年輕改革國民黨其實束手無策他完全是百浪不管的反正時間還久嘛真正到破產的時候搞不好我們都不在了我們都死掉了我們都死掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5467.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5485.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那如果要用這種心態讓他現在的人爽的話那乾脆你說不要不只退休年金不要砍一個人再加發個五萬不是更爽嗎但我們不會這樣去做嘛因為那不符合理性所以我倒覺得看待今天這件事情的時候看待整個年金的一個改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5487.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5510.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
啟動了大家都是怕了為了破產都是為了破產怕破產讓他繼續可以永續否則的話你把它想一定以現在的方式在黨朋友你主張的一個方式不是只有到最後是退休的以退休的人掛掉連現在限職的人你想想破產的時候你說連限職的人去哪裡拿錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5512.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5535.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為它真的就是一個水庫的概念以上簡單跟大家報告好 謝謝莊委員的發言不過我在這邊還是想要談一下就是個人認為退休金跟年金的意義跟性質是不一樣的在國民年金法裡面有關於年金的概念還是比較像是保險的概念跟退休金它是一個工作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5536.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5552.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
長期工作之後的退休所得那個意義是不同的而且再說也是不同的水庫那麼我始終認為說公教委員不應該是次等勞工只是因為他的故事是政府我都尊重但是不要評論我的要評論我的就把我的話繼續講下去因為這個錢是全國國民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5561.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5565.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
全國國民黨我們家裡頭人也有公務假設也有公務人員的話我希望他領得更多可是有的人會認為說那塊你們的基金如果破產就不應該用我們這裡不是這塊人的錢去賺嘛 一樣嘛我在講強調的是這個概念好不好對 我也是談的就是一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5580.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5596.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
所以我的意思是說 你如果要評論我的你主席說話 我要評論你的啊 一樣意思啊 對不對這樣說好的 那接下來我們再請那個林建吉委員對 因為我們是不是對不同的委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5599.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5615.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好 謝謝主席那我們在這個討論裡面我當然呼應幾個概念然後也來溝通幾個概念那個退休金如剛才朝偉所講的那其實是雇主是政府跟公教人員的一個工作契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5617.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5635.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以公教人員付出政府規定的勞動期程來退休這個退休金應該是勞動所得不管是哪一種制度我相信大家在改革的過程當中對於制度也會有一些檢討然後再做出 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5637.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5658.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
再做出一些相對應的方式來因應目前的狀況所以應該我們現在的問題就是政府在原先跟公務人員或公教人員的契約關係是應該明定的而且它是有法律效力的剛才吳宗憲委員其實也提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5659.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5683.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那麼在這個視線裡面當中呢他有提到那在國家什麼樣子的情形下是可以做這樣一個調整的那似乎在這樣一個詮釋上好像我們還沒有到這個國家在經濟上有很大的衝擊那要做這樣子一個大的調整所以也就是政府的信賴保護原則在過去定定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5683.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5697.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那在現在要去打破的話你必須要有一個很讓大家應該有一個溝通的共識它就是一個工作契約嘛那我們過去這樣子定了現在你單方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5698.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5726.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
改變了那這樣當然會有一些不公義的產生今天我們就是因為政府在性愛保護原則下讓公教人員感覺失信跟不仁不義我們才有今天這樣一個法案的一個討論所以公教人員其實從頭到尾都是受害跟被動者那另外呢在這是我們的訴求是停砍退休金的逐年遞減而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5727.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5756.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
大部分的人的提案大概都在一一三年以後我們就希望現在停侃可能有少部分我不知道某一些提案有沒有回溯但基本上我看大部分的都是停侃年金沒有回溯全訓部在先前的一個討論上當然有提到所謂基金破產的問題但是退府基金不足的始作俑者是政府公教人員是受聘於政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5757.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5767.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那麼退補基金投資績效過去很低落那產生了退補基金的一個困難那也是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5769.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5797.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
過去是政府緊抓著退撫基金的管理權那管理不當結果產生的投資績效低落導致退撫基金未來可能的破產但是相信政府而把錢放到這裡面的公教人員為什麼要承擔這樣一個罪過呢所以我覺得應該是政府本身要檢討但是檢討的方式有很多種包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5799.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5827.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
精算報告裡面所講的撥補那我這邊談到撥補的問題我也來呼應一下我們前勞動部長何佩珊 何部長所談的勞保的撥補就是改革所以撥補也是政府可以用的一種手段政府可以透過勞保基金撥補勞保基金來穩定基金的財源所以撥補也是一種改革的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5828.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5857.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
它可以避免趕年金啊這也可以呼應剛才有幾位委員談到的你這個基金不夠 為什麼百年要來補但是政府你有很多錢可以來補的所以你可以運用你可以撥補的這個空間先把它補足而不是叫公教人員先勒緊褲帶然後去因應你未來不知道哪一年它就是早跟晚的一個破產的狀況嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5858.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5877.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以有沒有可能我們說技術上來講啦如果在執政的這個部分可以用一些有效的手段來停止激進你們所謂的未來可能的不管是短期或長期的一個破產的可能性那也就是現在任何的可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5878.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5897.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
讓基金不要再減少的方式都是可用的那可不可以不要去衝擊到你們原本就已經有信賴保護原則的公教團體我覺得這是一個技術性的方式所以如果勞保的撥補是一種改革那麼退補基金為什麼不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5900.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5925.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
蔡英文總統其實曾經對公教來喊話她說公教人員不是改革的對象是改革的夥伴大家要共同來參與但是年金卻只有集中在砍公教的族群如果要比較勞保年金的破產也是岌岌可危的那又該怎麼處理呢所以現在在勞保的撥補上有五千一百七十億 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5926.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5935.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
結果在過去呢7年的改革進度好像也沒有很好公教撥補都不到300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5937.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5963.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
但是我們如何來看待這個大家所謂的不同職業類別的一個比較呢那我最後呼應啦就是類別不要相互比較公教勞工一個是類別大家的這個職業類別相互比較就這是共產國家嗎我們通常的都是都一起比較嘛那另外呢是退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5964.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5976.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
大家在退休金是過去的公教人員對政府的一個信任當這個信任被打破他們也不可能買到過去的時間再去回復到過去的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5977.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6002.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以我覺得這個性愛保護原則是非常重要的所以秉持在這個原則下那政府基金是你在做處理的然後信任你的是公教的群體所以不要把對象給搞錯了那某一些比較也不應該是沒有其一標準的亂比那這樣子很難讓人 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6004.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6013.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
不去想到某一種不同的類別鬥爭我覺得這個是我這邊要做一個提醒的謝謝好 接下來再請那個莊委員剛才莊瑞雄莊委員提到那個會破產這個問題會嗎公教退伍基金會破產嗎勞動部的部長對啊民進黨勞動部的部長就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6034.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6039.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
波幅也是用改革啊而且他拍胸脯 歷任的勞動部部長都說不會破產啊勞工的退伏基金明明就破洞月比較大啊為什麼他都不會他都不會不會破產啊雖然你這麼多 我在說我在說你破產的這件事情你說回到勞動部為什麼勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6057.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6080.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
沒有啦 人家在說我們剛才理性溝通人家這麼理性的 你怎麼用這個水泳這麼理性對不對 人家怎麼理性對話我寫說 用勞動部長的標準我希望權敘部跟教育部的部長你們要跟勞動部部長學沒有破產這件事情而且台灣民眾黨至少提出三個方法是不會破產的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6082.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6095.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
職業平等你就跟勞工一樣撥補我剛剛已經講了過去7年勞工的撥補超過5000億特別是最近這三年每一年都超過1000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6097.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6118.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
就用同樣的標準我們贊成對勞工繼續撥補可是職業是平等的只要公教也是足額的撥補老實講公教的撥補金額是比較少的你只要每一年增加一兩百億就夠了沒有像勞工一下子要增加一年一千億他就不會有破產問題這是第一個第二個方法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6121 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6128.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
績效啊 我剛剛已經跟他報告過啦以前在年改的時候你擔心績效只有2%甚至有時候是負成長可是最近這 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6129.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6151.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
幾年平均都是9%以上我剛也提了你就眼睛蒙起來買那個台灣50就超過7%啦你們精算報告也講只要投資績效超過7%甚至不用撥補你都不會破產啊所以一個是撥補不會破產第二個績效達到7%以上也不會破產第三個也很重要嘛我剛為什麼一開始講浪費 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6153.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6175.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
政府的財政已經變好了你當初在連改的時候你說國家財政困難可是我剛剛已經跟大家講你國家財政現在你的中央政府總預算已經成長那麼多了你又超增了然後你的基金水庫這個退伏基金的小水庫水位也上升了你當初連改的那個基礎已經沒有了嘛要跟上時代啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6177.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6199.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以你只要減少 現在只要減少浪費因為現在最嚴重的是什麼你每一年都超出那麼多錢中央政府總預算一直在膨脹結果你就發現那個浪費的錢非常非常多你只要把這個浪費的錢省下來不只照顧公企 全國民眾都可以照顧台灣民眾黨這一次針對這次這個修法我們是提兩個非常重要的職業平等 世代是共榮我希望我們再等個 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6203.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6227.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
討論這過程裡面不要製造對立跟仇恨也不要一直放恨恨跟愛我們能不能用愛來解決問題而且世代現在是可以共融的我剛已經講了這次這個修法如果再不趕快修的話在今年不趕快再停砍那造成的結果是什麼你的後遺症就是教育出影響是你的小孩受害教育受害然後你家裡面很多人有年輕人要撫養長輩啊一砍長輩你不是會增加這些年輕人的負擔嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6233.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6256.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
另外整個國家發展公務員人才不進這個公務體系去這受害是全民所以請不要用對立的方式一刀切去看這個問題我們整個世代應該是要共榮的互相是幫助的然後用愛來解決這個問題所以台灣民眾黨今天有兩個很重要的從今年開始不要繼續再砍了可是我們沒有回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6257.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6277.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
大家知道嗎 107年開始 砍到現在公教人員的退休金所得替代已經被砍掉三分之一了我們沒有要恢復那三分之一喔只是停住而已喔第二個 物價 我們物價的這個指數因為物價跟通膨很嚴重那我們要求是什麼這跟勞工跟國民年金一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6278.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6302.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們之前授權給行政體系跟考試院去訂結果每次累積到的5%以上開始檢討或每次連檢討一大堆理由本來物價指數已經上升到5%了結果每次調的可能是2%或者是4%那這次我們就平等嘛依照勞工的方式 依照國民年金你累積超過5% 那你就調那個累積的成長率這樣是平等 而且就比較簡單嘛我們提這兩個修正案 請大家支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6306.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6333.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好 接下來請陳委員好 謝謝主席剛剛有在野黨的委員一直說退府基金沒有被撥補一樣 四妖姊姊這個借我一下拜託看一下這本報告書裡面其實就有告訴我們從年改到現在大量的撥補金額都是由政府所提供但是大家一定很好奇我們為什麼需要政府來提供這個撥補重點是因為長期以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6335.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6362.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
相關的公教人員從自己的薪水拿出來到所謂這個退府基金裡面其實只有35%而其他的65%是政府早就在幫公教人員出錢了這件事情請大家先釐清這個是第一個部分很重要所以回過頭來看到目前為止政府到底已經撥補多少已經2900多億全部都是政府買單我要再次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6363.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6380.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
全部都是政府買單好 再來所以剛剛講到說你們要扯到跟勞保有關那要扯我想這個奇怪的宇宙無敵自創的財政概念就請你們自己收回去同時我要提醒到底這個退府基金裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6381.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6397.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
要怎麼樣讓他財務平衡收支平衡在大法官會議782號解釋裡面就有說退伏法規定的意旨是當基金的收支有不足的時候政府可以採其他因應措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6399.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6420.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
撥補當然是其中一項我再說一次撥補當然是其中一項可是當時大法官也提醒政府說一我們必須要檢討調整撥繳費用的基準也就是說當現在現行的公務人員他們繳的是35%而政府先提供65%的時候這個機制要不要調整這個是可以討論的再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6424.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6439.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
有沒有可能延後退休相關的年齡這也是可以討論或者是改用平均本縫的計算或者是調整退休所得替代率這些都是所謂可以用的開源節流的手段但很可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6439.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6462.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
可惜的是在野黨的委員不斷製造仇恨不斷製造職業之間的對立不斷製造世代之間的仇恨跟對立甚至把限職的你剛剛說的你不願討論限職人員的困境你們全部談的是退休請問所有現在在場的公務人員真的可以接受嗎我不知道你們的想法從何而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6463.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6484.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
但是很明顯的看出這一次所有的在黨委員的提案版本全部都是為了照顧特殊的單一的族群我等一下也想要請這些委員談一談為什麼你們要提出這樣的版本所以我要講的是在年改之後政府甚至把相關年改後所節省的經費全數撥補給基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6488.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6509.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
而這個也是政府在做的努力可是我不知道為什麼你們不願意看見蒙其耳朵 蒙其眼睛 蒙其耳朵什麼都不聽 什麼都不看就只講你自己想講的甚至講的資料是錯誤的再來我要講你們一直講物價指數 物價指數你們甚至認為要跟現行的公務人員的調薪來做雙軌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6513.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6530.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
調整這個也非常的荒謬事實上在相關的法律當中我們已經提到本來在年改之後退休人員相關所得可以透過CPI的調整來做調整什麼意思在這幾年當中我們已經調整累計高達6% |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6532.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6551.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
也就是說政府並不是沒有考慮到物價指數的因素對於退休人員的照顧而這件事情你們也沒有看見你們甚至亂七八糟的說政府完全沒有考慮到也拜託回去看相關報告最後我要說剛莊瑞雄委員所說的確實就是當這筆錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6553.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6563.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
你們不願意去搶其他財政來源你們只想著政府撥補你們只想著幫單一特殊族群爭取所謂的福利的時候事實上真的是全民買單因為你想的是政府撥補而政府的錢從哪裡來就是透過納稅人繳的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6570.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6583.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這當然就是政府買單完全不符合社會的期待由全體納稅人來負擔財務缺口而製造出這個仇恨跟對立的正是所有提案的在野黨委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6585.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6600.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我想要念一下所有在越黨委員的名字請你們站出來對全台灣人民交代你們提出這樣的提案甚至很多委員寫的版本根本一模一樣我不知道是不是各個委員辦公室還可以這樣複製貼上賴思寶委員張志倫委員張家俊委員徐欣穎委員邱振軍委員國民黨黨團還有林思敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6607.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6635.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
陳昌明委員 徐宇貞委員黃建豪委員 馬文君委員 傅坤祺委員王宏威委員 黃建斌委員 陳育貞委員羅志強委員 萬美玲委員 廖偉祥委員楊瓊英委員 林倩琦委員當然還有今天的主席 翁曉琳委員還有不要漏了民眾黨黨團你們自己也有提案版本你們就請站出來說清楚到底你們的提案版本是如何創造所謂的共榮以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6640.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6663.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我想因為剛好大家都差不多討論的差不多是不是就可以我們就進入到逐條審查陳委員講的一個數據非常非常的離譜跟錯誤我要更正一下我給他一個數據先請張委員先稍等好不好因為我本來是建議說是不是我們待會大體討論完之後就可以大體討論完之後我們就可以進入逐條審查那這樣的話抱歉剛好漏了 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6670.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6679.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
發言那麼因為還是我們還是要照政黨這樣談還是要那個這樣子的話好那剛剛是陳佩瑜委員發言完之後要再輪到你要不要講國民黨或是民眾黨委員對就政黨是是是對雖然有他們有在對那所以林倩琦委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6695.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6703.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們剛剛其實是依照這樣的順序在進行的我們剛剛其實就已經依照政黨的輪流的順序在進行我們很認真每一個人都來那我們來就不行嗎我們是司法法制委員我們就來啊張委員要發言我只是要更正剛剛陳培宇非常離譜的發言他竟然講說災黨的數據是錯的請問你哪隻眼睛看到公教人員最近補貼了2900多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6724.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6742.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我給你一個明確的 最近這三年 最近這三年107到113給基金的移租款已經累計2590億那個是砍了他們的錢回來的啦 政府的撥補政府的撥補在113年 公務人員50億 交易人員50億114年 交易人員120億 公務人員120億 交易人員74億 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6752.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6756.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
今年 明年要省的這個115年教育人員92億 126億少爺進這三年加起來512你怎麼會冒出一個2900億呢你這樣污衊公教人員嗎第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6766.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6769.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們一直在講職業是平等的你剛剛一直在講什麼職業這個對立我們贊成勞工繼續撥補勞工繼續撥補你要看109年跟110年撥補109年勞工撥補200億110年撥補220億110年撥補300億112年撥補450億110年開始最近這三年每一年1300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6794.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6819.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以光是這七年 撥補超過五千億結果呢 公教人員這邊撥補的只有五百十二億所以我剛剛在提就是說第一個數據不要完全錯誤 不要造謠的同時我們現在只要求職業是平等的我們願意在支持這個勞工繼續撥補的同時請不要苛刻 不要苛刻不要霸凌公教人員該足而撥補的就要撥補只要足而撥補 這個基金就不會破產了好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6825.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6827.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好 接下來請王一川委員發言好 今天大家談話都很理性因為沒有人大巴巴叫這個是本委員會非常少數見到的其實國家對國家貢獻的公務人員有貢獻勞工有貢獻 老師也有貢獻這次用國民年金的 不去吃陶爐的也有貢獻各家庭的都有貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6855.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6866.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
不可以說既然像這個什麼民眾黨的這次就說要搞國家公告說勞工要補補你就拿一塊勞工補補要補多少你也沒有啊你也沒有啊你就趕快拿啦你趕快拿 拿一支剛才說這個公告的這個過去包括這個負債什麼補的已經補了五千八百億了這個數字你怎麼知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6883.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6889.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
但是對勞工的 這也是五千幾億啦可是兩邊的人數差別二十倍啦 差別二十倍啦你補這個勞工 勞工我們現在是一千四十八萬人左右啦勞工的啦 公投的五十八萬啦結果政府啊 對五十八萬的人補的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6911.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6923.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
交一清空40百萬報的錢是一樣的啦所以勞工啊 勞工報的就是公告人員差不多20分之1啦20分之1啦啊所以你們說這邊要公平這條國家對勞工就不公平啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6930.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6935.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以不知道之前有這個要改革,對於賣,賣營救時代就開始要改革,賣改不過去,現在有了蔡英文總統蓋的時候,賣也打破了,賣也沒反對,因為這是他一生的志願,賣也沒反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6948.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6956.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以喔 這撥補大家要公平啦所以現在如果是說什麼每天都在說的公告人員的車輪喔 看勞工的要怎麼撥補啦啊農民啦 農報的這看要怎麼撥補大家也就會來講 這才會公平就是這 台灣民眾黨會說這次要公平 這條我贊成所以就用公平的角度 但是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6974.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6982.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
說這個世代共榮啦 說喔 各位朋友 國民黨說什麼 說喔啊本地啊 這個退休金是要來納大款的啦 現在沒有錢納大款啦退休金是要去製造 哇啦 現在沒辦法每年出去製造啊啊退休金說喔 要不要來聚餐吃飯 說現在也沒有辦法吃飯啦啊說本地的雞湯要五粒 現在說要變三粒啦我聽起來 廣告人員很可憐的啦 很可憐的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7004.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7008.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
結果現在本地的鐵板 公共公園鐵的鐵板都要五萬幾塊啦你去供給農民聽啦 農民才鐵那位老農啦政府給他一塊五萬幾塊 鐵那位勞工給他五萬幾塊勞工都不用抬款 勞工都不用遊覽勞工都不用去什麼 你們說的什麼 小館聚餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7027.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7032.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我廣告人員 拖延 拖延比這個勞工比農民還要多 拖延很可憐的這個農民跟勞工不是更可憐所以大家說這個要公平 不能這樣整群人要叫政府去拼 跟我們說這幾年我們稅收有夠多 稅收很好 操作基金也操作得很讚這算什麼餓肉呢 這算什麼餓肉吃好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7056.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7064.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
什麼叫做 同時要改革的條件不存在什麼都怎樣就怎樣欸 既然這個超盤基金的賺錢 難道聽你們的鼓勵政府稅收增加 國家的稅收增加 難道聽你們的鼓勵就是說 稅收增加 都去創幣案台北的精華廠就是最大的幣案 電視討論一兩年像這樣站出來說 自己說自己漏氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7086.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7108.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以我是 妳就從頭講必然 要講台來講必然啊妳如果要講必然 這條叫必 要討論這條叫必然 我已經講了我跟妳講 妳這樣實在沒禮貌 妳的講話我沒跟妳懂我們這司法法治委員會 今天因為有人沒來 今天很平靜的妳不可以代表他 大家在補這個有的沒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7109.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7116.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好不好 我沒有罵你 我講的都說這個制度的事情我們這個委員會都很平靜的今天有人沒來的 事情都要好好改觀到現在你看分配機都要盡雙盡雙 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7125.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7150.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以啊 我是覺得這樣啦 大家要討論用數字來討論愛本 報告 社交 大本 大家認真討論不可以說大政敵 開除了彼岸 彼岸啊 如果要說彼岸 現在最大的彼岸 整棟棟的棟主席最大條這都大條的 這臨港要處理 要處理 我們不要處理個案今天要說這個公告英文的事情如果國家要公平對待所有的職業就不應該中華民國政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7153.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7156.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
再借錢出來 再借出來來補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7158.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7178.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
補分的職業啦 如果要補 農民啦 增加措施的農民啦留感朋友 全規範的留感朋友大家退休念的 也要念講 喔 還要講一個講什麼 現在因為喔 退休的公務人員六七十的退休的公務人員因為退休金額五萬幾塊不夠 做生 現在沒有人要做公務人員這我就聽不懂了 這我聽不懂了 因為他們趕著追求的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7187.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7196.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
自己的水庫 大家拿一年一年有這群人 因為錢拿到少了 走心 裡面的人不開心這邏輯不會通啊 退休的人 現在零少了所以造成在裡面的人不開心不對啊 在裡面的人 你會說我領工有前途 我在這裡一曲我捏的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7211.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7213.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這邏輯聽不懂 我就做這樣的一個這個 我不知道是叫問還是什麼 表達我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7230.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7255.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
好 謝謝王委員的發言今天王委員也是非常的平和這非常在市委會很難得我們今天有這麼一個很和氣的一個開會的氣氛那接下來就請鄭天才委員發言然後在發言之後呢我想我們已經都進行了差不多將近兩個小時我們休息一下好不好對 因為我想在場的官員還有委員們應該可以稍微休息一下好 然後那就先請鄭天才委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7258.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7287.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
好 召委還有各位委員還有我們各機關的考試院還有行政院各機關這個大家談了很多第一個這個公務人員在職的時候每個月所提撥的跟勞工是不一樣是不一樣這是第一個第二個大家都在引用 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7289.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7313.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個馬英九說年金改革馬英九提的年金改革並不是要像現在107年也就是106年開始討論然後通過的這個年金改革所以不要隨便亂引用我們就看蔡英文總統蔡英文總統105年5月20號就任之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7318.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7347.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
特別指派陳建仁副總統召開年金改革委員會這個年金改革委員會邀請了各專業人士還有行政院 考試院各部會相關的學者專家開了二十幾次的年金改革的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7349.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7376.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
根據這個年金改革的會議考試院跟行政院共同提出了公務人員的這個退休之前撫恤的這個法例新的法例提出來的版本送到立法院在司法法治委員會討論了非常多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7378.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7404.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
而當時因為民進黨是絕對多數所以呢通過了誰的版本呢是通過了段宜康委員的版本段宜康委員他這麼了解這麼熟悉這個相關的這些退休的制度嗎他當然不了解不熟悉很簡單就把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7406.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7431.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
行政院跟考試院所送來的法案在大砍考試院跟行政院送來的法案是小砍他是小砍段宜康委員是大砍所以當初表決就通過了民進黨也就是民進黨通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7433.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7457.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
立法院通過了段宜康的版本就是大砍的版本所以已經實施這麼多年了所以今天要討論的是小砍要停止要停止砍不要再砍了因為已經大砍了這個都是事實所以要請大家能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7459.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7487.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
要了解這個這麼重要的一個過程大家都在談公務員的退休平均是五萬多塊這個是最高的計算所以考試院應該要考試院程序部應該要提出更精準的資料有的十四值等的常務 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7489.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7514.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
次長後常務副主委他因為他提早退休55歲就退休也有將近30年的年資到最後他只領多少你知道嗎4萬多塊他只能領4萬多塊大砍之後他只能領4萬多塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7517.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7538.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以那個五萬多塊是最高的程序部考試院提供的是最高的所以這個部分是這樣所以大家要很平和的去很仔細的去討論真的是該停侃了現在不是要回復是停侃 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7540.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7567.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以這個部分請大家要往這方面去努力去討論而不是我們要回到當時的審查的狀況 通過的狀況然後回到現在應該是要停侃的請大家能夠支持停侃 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7569.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7588.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我很短補充一下我們今天要用愛跟共榮來解決問題很短不好意思因為對不起 請尊重主席剛剛說的因為我是想說我們今天的會議已經進行到這個連續將近兩個多小時了然後也這個應該可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7590.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7611.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
中間休息一下那麼我想在休息之前好然後剛剛有很多委員對於數字有疑慮這次會議詢問應當讓在場官員在大體的部分第一輪他們也當就委員的發言來陳述一下好嗎讓官員發言一下我剛剛是有宣示說有公告就是說是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7612.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7634.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
任天才委員發言之後我們就休息那麼但是因為剛剛其實幾位列席長官坐在這邊然後也想要表達一下意見那我想每一位官員是不是就以三分鐘為限好嗎然後三分鐘講完之後我們中間就休息因為真的大家講不是不是主席這個事情這麼重要為什麼還要限制發言時間給他們盡量講啦我先一個記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7640.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7663.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
沒有原則上以三分鐘為限謝謝好那謝謝各位委員我簡單講整個概念應該回到這是一個專屬的水庫水庫就是參與人應該共同參與不應該再找外面的人來那當初就是因為不足耳提撥所以水庫會破產所以才做年改那年改意思就是說政府也撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7665.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7683.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
已經退休的人或者未來要退休的人大家所得減少一點大家來分攤以前沒有不足而提撥的一個概念就是這麼簡單的概念那如果我們現在再把它停止調降意思就是會讓這個水庫更早就沒了那沒了以後後面那幾十年的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7685.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7697.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
是一個很可怕的一個數字這是一個我先講整個大幹所以全區部為什麼會認為說對我們立場從財務的立場來講是不要讓本來就已經會後面沒有錢的再往更早提早 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7698.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7721.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那剛剛有委員提到說可不可以靠基金的這個譬如說投資效益能夠保障根據精算報告公務人員要平均9.17%才可能50年沒有破產教育人員要10點幾%可是我們過去其實大部分的基金台灣還有別的一個基金公務人員平均過去30年的基金大概是5點多%的投報率 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7722.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7749.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我的意思在講是說我們已經很努力那事實上剛剛委員提到說過去年改很有績效因為錢給我們我們有投資得更好能夠讓水位更高那如果你現在要把它停止調降的話那就表示給我們的錢就越來越少那我們就更少基金可以去做投資了我想這是第一個這樣的說明第二個說明是在過去這一年大家在談撥補公保如果要談勞保的撥補就應該對應公保 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7752.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7774.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那我們的公保過去大概撥了5000政府撥補了5100多億還有700多億會完成撥補等於是政府把所有公保的負債一肩扛起來就要結束了那他應該要對勞保那至於政府對勞退我們退休金的一個撥補從年改到現在我們溢住款大概2591億這個就是政府的撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7777.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7797.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
另外因為新制的缺口確實我們也有512億撥進來了所以未來政府還會繼續扮演這個角色等於是這樣才能夠讓基金能夠即使我們這樣一個撥補基金都會在100我們根據精算在134年是會用清的我想這是一個基本的數字要去做討論那另外一個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7800.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7816.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
剛剛委員有提到說我們平均數那不是那是平均數平均數好像說那是最高數當然不是我們現在平均那算平均所得但是平均所得一定是有人有高有人有低那會應該每一個人個案不一樣但是它絕對不是最高所得我想這個數字應該要先做這樣一個說明所以整體來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7819.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7835.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我們部裡面的態度從基金永續經營的角度來講我們認為過去的年改很有效果應該讓它持續那同時也維持退休人員大概有五萬塊以上的基本的一個所得我想這是一個共好的方式應該要繼續進行好 謝謝施部長那接下來劉秘書長也要發言嗎好 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7843.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7868.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
謝謝主席 各位委員 大家早安我想退休輔具是考試院的憲法職權所以在這個部分我想我們要很嚴肅地來面對現在各位在討論的議題也很清楚地表達我們的看法我想大家都很關心說對退休人員的所得會不會隨著物價的飛漲降低了他的購買力或生活品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7869.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7892.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我想在上一次年金改革的法案當中我們已經放進去一個機制也就是說每四年檢討或是每滿5%的時候檢討那過去從2018年年改上路之後其實我們調整了兩次那我要稍微修正一下剛剛委員有一個講法我們修正兩次第一次在民國111年的時候我們調整了2%事實上從年改到調整的當時物價的漲幅還不到2%大概1.9那次調了2% |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7899.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7913.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
後來從110年到112年底的時候大概物價就上漲了大概5%多那一次我們調整了4%所以簡單講就是過去這段時間的物價上漲兩次的調整大致上有反映到CPI的漲幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7914.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7932.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
雖然不是完全一樣所以就這個部分大家如果覺得這個部分還要再做更多的討論我想這個接下來大家都可以再交換意見但是對於停砍就是對於這個所值替代率停止調降這件事考試院的立場還是希望能夠把原來的現行法律的這段時間把它走完 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7933.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7961.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那我們的理由我想就剛剛部長已經講到其實就是基金的財務的考量那各位當然都會講說最近基金經營績號不錯國家財政還不錯我要跟各位報告其實精算報告你不管怎麼看它都有一個用期年限用期年限是140或138或者是132不管這個用期年限最後會落在哪一年就表示這個基金沒有在永續它都會用完 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7963.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7992.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
既然這個基金會用完它就像一個水庫啦我們知道20年後這個水庫會用完我們要討論應該是怎麼樣引進新的活水進去而不是一直而不是想著要把它怎麼樣提前再用用得更多一點那大家都會覺得說那個用政府撥補來好來處理就好了因為你只要基金這個經營得好然後政府的財政好就會這個錢就會可以一直進來但是我要提醒大家20年之後退府基金公務員的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7993.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8014.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
每年的收支短差會超過1000億就是你收到的錢基金投資績效賺的錢再拿去比上你要支出的退休金中間的短差會超過1000億因為人口結構的改變教育的部分也是一樣這樣是2000多億那政府不會只背著公教人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8015.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8034.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
勞工的部分也是政府的責任未來因為人口結構的改變這個政府的責任會變得非常大所以大家如果用眼前去看說政府的財政責任財務好像還不錯可以處理現在的狀況但是我要提醒大家未來那個洞會更大請大家把眼光放遠一點再來思考這個問題感謝大家好 謝謝接下來請任市長要發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8041.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8066.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
謝謝主席各位我想主要是講兩個概念一個就是限職跟退休的事實上當初年改的一個很重要假如我退休的每一年我隨著我公務人員的薪水來調整的話然後再加入所謂的他的CPI針對退休人員的CPI再去做增加的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8067.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8088.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
會造成一個很大的問題我限職在工作的人 領的薪水我增加的幅度會比退職的少這對我們限職的公務人員來講是一個非常非常嚴重的打擊所以這個一定不能再去把它恢復到原來當初解決的問題就是說我拿的越拿越多我拿一個會掉 拿一個會掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8093.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8115.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這樣對縣市的事實上不公平 而且還有一個這裡面會有一個問題很多人提早 會提早退因為他覺得兩邊的薪水差不多 他就提早退陳土大家也知道現在的出生率低到公家機關的尤其在警消人員 他退的會更多會造成警力的一個缺口 我想這是一個議題那第二個議題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8121.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8141.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
剛才秘書長也提到很重要的事實上我們現在面臨的就是我們每一年的提撥力太低提撥力太低就如同剛才張其凱委員所提的雖然我們投報率有到7%可是因為提撥力太低你這個水庫的進水量太少 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8142.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8169.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
水庫淨水量少 可是你流出去的多那你長期下來一定阿伯阿水貴一定越來越少除非你提供力又會拉上來拉上來的話 很多限職的公務人員對他來講又是另外一個很大的負擔所以大家必須要考慮到20年後 50年後我們整個政府的各大基金到底我們現在的缺口以我們初步推估現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8172.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8194.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這三類人員的潛藏負債大概三兆你如果再往後拉的話對未來的年輕世代我覺得我們是在消耗他的我們現在領的錢事實上他們未來會去負擔我覺得對世代公平會有問題請大家參考 謝謝現在我們就休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8202.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8205.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我們就原則上就先休息十分鐘好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9329.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9352.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好 各位好 繼續開會那麼在繼續開會之前呢我再做一次會議程序的預告那依照開會通知今天上午會議的進行時間是到12點那我們在12點之前就進行大體討論那麼中間會休息等到下午2點半的時候我們就進行這個逐條審查不知道在座的有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9354.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9379.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
先大體完再說 有意見就講完盡量好不好 我盡量把它講完我想我們這邊的話 我們就剛剛我們保留 我們盡量會盡量基本上因為我們大體討論已經好幾輪了那麼我們原則上就是在12點之前就完成大體討論然後下午2點半就繼續我盡量早上講完會審查如果有意見的話 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9390.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9400.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以吳委員對我剛的宣告是有意見嗎先保留先保留先發言完如果12點之前搞不好12點之前我們就講完了搞不好就更快嘛對不對先讓我講吧那如果這樣的話那我們就休息了我們發言啦不要休息幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9410.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9419.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你們現在是怎樣不敢提停職討論直接用休息不給討論嗎我們就繼續討論嘛沒有 因為我們剛剛其實私底下大家有稍微討論了然後本來認為其實我們大體討論已經進行了超過四輪以上的發言所以這個12點之前就進行大體討論那麼如果說大家認為大體討論還不夠的話那我們就休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9439.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9443.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
為什麼要休息 我們要繼續討論為什麼要休息讓我們繼續講 也許我們講完覺得OK我先講 你講 你可以啦你剛剛講過了 換我了吧 可以啦謝謝 剛剛主席已經宣告了啦剛剛是我們大家也在溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9457.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9481.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
大體討論已經講了好幾輪了已經兩個多小時了基本上也充分討論了我也知道民進黨基本上你們有你們的立場也尊重啦但主席既然已經說希望大體討論到12點那如果你們覺得是沒有這個必要的話那我們就下午遵照主席說下午兩點再來開會那不需要在這邊繼續耗著啦所以我也支持主席按照主席才是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9483.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9486.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好 那我們就現在休息我們要討論就不給討論你們不給討論又來了不給討論又來了王小林委員不給討論又來了羅智強委員不給討論又來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9504.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9508.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
你剛剛還說我們私下討論你剛剛私下討論就已經答應吳思瑤委員了主席你剛剛答應了又不敢喊停止討論只敢喊休息不敢實施討論剛剛點名的委員也都沒有來發言有時間休息沒時間討論汪小玲 羅志強有時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
21257.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
21282.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
好各位委員好我們現在就繼續開會那麼由於在上午大體討論的發言時間已經進行了兩個多小時而且有多次的政黨交叉發言所以依照會議休息之前本席所做的宣告那下午兩點半我們就繼續開會進入主條討論那麼現在是否就停止大體討論進行主條討論進行主條討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
21286.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
21310.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
主席請會議詢問優先好不好等一下有意義因為我想先會議詢問優先因為主席在上午的宣告之前你有先同意讓我在大體要再發言這是您的promise那後來沒有想到你們也同意大體要繼續嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
21313.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
21321.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那結果你就休息了那是不是我在爭取我的大題討論您承諾我要讓我那一輪至少我要講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
21322.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
21333.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 因為我想在上午的時候我想我們已經很清楚的就說是我們在大庭討論當時是說在12點之前結束但是後來這個委員基本上也不支持那我們認為說這個樣子的情況其實今天委員已經發表好幾次的發言了我們討論充分因為有一些是要回應後面的委員的說法在場有異議的話我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
21350.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
21374.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
停止讨论的这个动议是优先处理的那么现在呢你们现在停止讨论什么你要提同意讨论什么大体啊停止大体讨论下午的会议开始连讨论都还没开始就要停止讨论这有没有太离谱了那你好歹让我们大体讨论一下你再停止讨论行使你的权利啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
21375.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
21391.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
現在是下午開會正開始而已我們都還沒有開始你就看你討論主席宣布是大體討論你要不要讓我多講你自己在那邊提議你意義的你意義的他提到12點是你意義的然後就休息啦下午就今天來處理啊我要繼續討論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
21399.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
21402.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
有意義主席我們說有意義主席我們說有意義你不要假裝沒有聽到這麼大聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
21421.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
21425.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
下午的會開到現在討論不到三分鐘我們就現在進行表決為什麼這麼害怕討論呢為什麼這麼害怕討論呢因為大家討論這是一個辯證的問題你們後來的提問我們認為要再說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
21443.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
21450.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這麼害怕討論請問在場委員有沒有異議我們現在就採用舉手表決在表決之前先清點在場的出席委員人數請先清點在場出席這麼害怕討論現在在場有九位委員今天下午的會議剛開始是連討論都還沒有開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
21467.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
21470.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
請兩位先暫停我們現在要開始進行表決贊成動議案的請舉手贊成林倩琦所提出的動議我看吳委員這樣一個要求也不過分 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
21488.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
21491.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
大體討論 再給他講一輪他一個人也不會佔用大家多久的時間那反對者先請舉手因為我們現在這個下午這個會議才剛開始剛開始 你早上說要大體討論的事情你就直接做你要做的事情反對者三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
21511.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
21521.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
是兩位吧他們兩個也是人好嗎那舉手表決結果在場出席委員9人贊成者6人 反對者3人贊成者討論都還沒有開始就要提案暫停討論這真的很難看啊好我們就先停止大庭討論待會吳委員您可以將您的意見在主條審查的時候再進行的盡情發揮好嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
21538.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
21554.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
好 那麼我們現在就開始進行逐條討論那麼我們繼續進行逐條討論那本案系部分的修正總共會處理五條還有兩個副表 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
21556.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
21571.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那麼第三條是委員張志倫等19人提案第八條是委員張志倫我們就一條一條所以首先我們先處理第三條張志倫委員提案的條文在場委員有沒有人要發表意見先請吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
21581.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
21602.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
首先因為提案委員是張志倫委員我是非常希望能夠聽到提案委員對於他提案增列第三項的說明或者是在場同黨的委員可以替提案委員他不在場替他說明他的提案是要排除這個84年以前已經退休的這些部分我不知道他的提案的緣由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
21603.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
21620.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那我要在這個部分要說明一下我要補充的是今天上午有很多的委員都提到說因為物價上漲所以要停砍這個公教的所得替代率的這個說法它到底正不正確合不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
21621.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
21645.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
其實在上一次討論我們在條文裡頭已經設了一個GDP 5%上下5%還有每四年要調整一次其實已經入法了而且說已經這六年來對不起我們兩度的這個調配合GDP已經調整了6% UP 6%了所以說以物價上漲就要停侃所得替代率的這一個大家可以看我手上有一個最新的民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
21646.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
21658.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
有50.7%是反对这个说法所以早上在党委员所提的这个立论反映在修法的条文它显然是多数的民意是不认同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
21659.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
21687.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那在党委员在大体讨论的时候也提到说因为公教砍太凶造成报考公教的人员变少这是罗志祥委员一直在提的现在来报考公教的人员锐减就是因为退休金的问题是这样吗我也分享给大家最新的一个民调55.5%并不同意是因为砍年金造成公教报考 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
21688.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
21714.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
的人數變少這是民意的數字而這55.5%當中國民黨支持者是45%民眾黨有民眾黨支持者的政黨傾向是57.1是反對這個說法那接下來呢更重要的是上午大家都講到要拉平其他不同職業別的退休保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
21715.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
21742.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那么因为现在如果停砍了年金那造成我们未来拧公教的退休俸依旧是远高于老保国民年金跟老农津贴的问民调来问国人接不接受这个行业不均的问题的时候呢60.4%是不支持这样子的论调 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
21743.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
21762.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以是2比1超過百分之將近30的比例民意告訴我們對於這樣的利潤人民認為要追求行業間的公平才是重要最後一個我也要分享因為上午沒有機會分享我要強調這是最新的民調我想要分享大家在 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
21763.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
21784.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
主條討論的時候有個民意的參照總體而言到底大家認為年金改革要繼續進行或是停止年改大家就看這一個最終的數字59.7%也就是六成的民意認為年金改革要繼續只有31.7%的國人認為年改應當來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
21790.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
21818.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以也幾乎是2比1的比例所以我們現在住到逐條的討論我們還是要回到因為條文一下去這一個我當然知道在野黨委員也只是把條文的討論當作過水啦反正你們就是過過過然後就朝野協商一個月冷凍期過了院會就表決那院會表決的時候呢還不曉得會不會又拿出什麼最高機密的黑箱版本不曉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
21819.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
21827.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
但是在逐條討論我們就必須把這個前提性的問題再一次跟在野黨的委員做辯證為什麼我們需要討論來你討論你發言我辯駁或是我發言你辯駁我們彼此來比較PK誰的說法正確與否這才是專業的立法委員不害怕討論不害怕去辯證的這個重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
21844.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
21858.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那我們身為民意代表我們的底氣是什麼就是我們依據是民意所以民意告訴我們六成主張年改要繼續那為什麼在野黨的委員要執意來繼續強推 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
21861.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
21890.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
年金改革喊卡喊停的这个版本呢所以民调的部分早上因为没有机会讲我一定要在进入逐条的时候利用我发言的时间来跟大家做说明那几个重要的数字我看到提案委员张委员到了也许他等一下可以说明一下他在第三条来增列第三项的理由是什么我最后要再做一个上午有些委员发言的一些错误来提出一下正确的数字哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
21890.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
21913.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為大家都在比勞保我們都支持國家在有限的資源可以去幫助勞保更多幫助國民年金更多幫助老農更多民進黨也負責任的提出了不同的法案在對應於其他職業別他們的退休金的保障民進黨有行動有法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
21913.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
21931.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
但是絕對不是因為說要改勞保要改國保所以說公教的年改就要喊卡這當中到底它的關係性是什麼我們要想方設法去補足其他行業的不平不均 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
21932.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
21953.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
不正是應當不讓這個不平不均擴大嗎不是正應當去彌平這個國家年金的缺口而不是擴大缺口如果年金公報公教的部分的缺口擴大了以後要拿的是公帑來補它是所有的納稅人買單那麼我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
21955.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
21984.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
更沒有能力去照顧勞保農保跟國民年金保險的國人們不是應當這樣邏輯才順嗎那早上有很多委員說勞保撥補了五千八百億公教址撥補五千一百五一七零一哇 我們照顧勞保比較多不要忘了這個前提是什麼我們勞保的人數是一千零五十萬左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
21986.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
21998.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我們公教保險的人數是58萬人相差20倍所以換算下來國家即使這些年我們用撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
22001.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
22009.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這個勞保的部分5170億換算1000多萬個勞工平均每一個勞工只獲得國家撥補是49332但是5800億撥補給58萬的公教人員換算出來每一位公教人員獲得國家撥補是100萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
22025.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
22052.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
100萬比上4933249332對於勞工20倍的天差地別所以我一定要來把上午幾位委員選擇性的去揭露了一些片面的數字而不去看待整個政策的原貌當我們在討論勞保跟公保的撥補總額的時候你當然要計算它的人數嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
22053.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
22065.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以撥補勞工每人49332可是這幾年對於公教人員每年每位不是每年對不起每位的撥補已經累積了來到100萬了所以我要透過我 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
22066.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
22085.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
發言的時間我再次強調主席不是你們不想聽討論或是討論道理講不贏然後就表決暫停討論不敢讓真理越辯越明如果你們認為你們捍衛提出來的是真理是硬道理的話為什麼害怕討論害怕辯論呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
22089.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
22114.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以現在進入主條只有五個條文我不曉得翁委員翁昭偉打算用幾分鐘的時間把這五個條文都你們想通過或者是最好通通通過或者是那就都保留打包協商一切都是過水就好不要用這樣的心態在面對我們的工作早上11點19分主席就宣布休息放飯 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
22116.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
22138.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這是什麼能撈就撈 能混就混的心態今天下午兩點半開始開會主席不到五分鐘 連討論都還沒開始就居然宣布國民黨提案停止討論連討論都沒有開始 就停止討論要對社會交代 要對人民交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
22143.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
22166.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
民眾黨的委員黃國昌總召早上沒有出現剛剛下午終於出現了他出現的功能是什麼就是配合國民黨委員提案停止討論他舉手表決終止了年改重要的透明公開的討論就是黃國昌來開這場會做到現場前後不到三分鐘舉手表決多一票 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
22167.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
22192.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
幫助這個討論不能被進行這就是黃國昌今天對於年改走回頭路的貢獻好回到第三條江志倫委員提案委員到了好您陣列的第三項那就請您再具體的說明一下然後也請我們這個市部長或者是劉秘書長可以來回應一下這個條文的意涵因為您這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
22193.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
22216.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我想尊重一下提案委員讓他說明我們可以更清楚他提案的意志因為現在是進入到逐條審查不過因為剛剛吳委員有要求說要給他大體討論時間所以我們就給吳委員更多的時間因為待會可能會要討論的舉手發言的委員人數多所以待會 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
22217.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
22241.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
要發言的委員請到主席台前面來進行登記那麼並且依照我們立法院議事規則30條的規定我這邊先宣告發言時間每位委員的發言時間為三分鐘那麼希望今天大家能夠在討論相關議案的時候更有效率然後一些話其實不挑討論也要限制三分鐘一個人那可以發言幾次對 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
22255.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
22260.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
每一條都登記原則上以一次為限 謝謝每一條都要登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
22281.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
22289.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
並再一次講就可以了並再一次講一次你說五條一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
22478.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
22486.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好 那我們現在就先進行第三條的主條審查發言那首先先請莊越雄委員三分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
22487.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
22507.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
很快 謝謝趙委我想今天國民黨的委員也都到了今天我覺得比較可惜的地方就是說全序部提出的這三份的一個報告我覺得在野黨委員應該再去認真的再把它看一看這個社會裡面再強調一次我們如果不能讓繳稅的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
22511.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
22535.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
繳這個稅金的時候繳得心甘情願舒服一點的話繳稅的人比領的人還要痛苦的話這個制度就有問題了以權序部這三個報告裡面連QA也都有財務報告試算也全部都有事實上我們今天在討論的這幾個條文就是月退休所得超過所得替代率的上限是不是要逐年去做一個扣減的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
22536.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
22541.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那災難的朋友呢 我們其實話大家應該來講清楚啦一直在提到說政府沒有為年金基金編的預算沒有去改善這個財務這個其實是錯誤的一個講法啦那我們在做整個逐年在扣減的時候它扣減它有它的法定的順序第一個你一定是先去扣優存的利息那這個部分政府去提撥然後救治年資月的補償金是政府也去提撥 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
22562.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
22576.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
就是月退休金政府提拔你新制的月退休金的部分才是屬於個人自體的一個部分也就是說四項裡面的前三項都是由各級政府的預算去支出並不是由公教人員自行來做一個負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
22578.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
22592.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那我看從退伍基金的資料裡面從2018年年金改革上路以來到2024年政府累計移住的金額是其實是2590億其中的85%也就是2197億元是政府來提撥的一個經費也就是說今天早上吳宗憲委員所提到的大法官施政的一個議旨裡面你說要信賴原則那你也去承認說 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
22607.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
22633.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
快破產的情況之下財務不足的情況之下政府要變通的一個方法也就是說政府透過預算的一個挹注穩定基金的一個財務還有政府跟現職跟退休人員共同來分擔這樣的一個風險政府最後才去履行最後的一個支付保障的一個責任來確保這整個制度的永續的一個運作我相信這個才是這幾個條文在講的年改以後你真正財務結構而不是說政府不出錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
22637.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
22659.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
你停止了水庫的挹注的一個總量領的人越多然後你繳的人越少你投資效益早上在黨委員在批評的你們講說投資效益太過低了你如果說你領的人越多你繳的人越少你投資效益再高也沒有用你基金這29年來平均收益是5.27% |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
22662.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
22669.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
29年來的一個平均那你近5年更高達9.36%這個其實是算蠻高啦我個人都認為蠻高可是呢你如果連本金到最後都沒有你怎麼去做投資啊所以今天這個守得替代率租賃扣減的部分我請在野黨的朋友啊把權序部這幾本啊財務的一個試算跟QA把它看完以後啊我想再來做一個理性的討論可能會好一點啊否則我們也可以預測到那個結果但是這樣子是好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
22696.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
22712.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好 謝謝莊委員的發言那麼我現在先依照這個議事規則29條來宣告有關於登記發言的時間我們以3點10分為準3點10分之後我們就截止發言登記那接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
22714.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
22739.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
好 謝謝主席其實我們要五個條文要發言我也登記了五次事實上我只講一個條文就可以把五個條文的問題都解決其實今天我們老實說各政黨有自己的立場但是我們的目標應該一致的就是希望公教退府基金不要提早破產那今天民進黨的主張是認為說如果把焦點放在所得替代率逐年降低才可以避免我們退府基金破產 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
22740.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
22755.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
但是國民黨主張的意思是說縱使不再降低所得替代率只要提高政府撥補我們一樣可以讓基金能夠持續經營好 那我們就持平來看第93條大家看螢幕其實我們的退府基金的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
22756.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
22777.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
退府條例啊 他93條怎麼寫 他分成三段第二段他說 前項退府制度之建立至退府基金用慶年度提前之財務缺口由政府依退府基金財務精算結果 自前項退府制度實施之日起分年編列預算撥款補助之 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
22777.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
22783.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
大家常常說撥補撥補 撥補的法律條文來自於93條的撥款補助 簡稱撥補已經明明白白寫了政府對我們的退伏基金會依93條來撥補所以大家擔心什麼呢 我先講幾個不同第一個不同 為什麼政府獨獨對各種的職業年金只有對公教退伏有撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
22800.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
22809.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
因為軍公教是政府僱用的人員今天勞工人數高達1048萬但是勞保條例我們目前沒有任何一條66條到69條沒有要求政府要撥補但是政府實質上還是有幫忙怕勞保基金因為他的財務缺口我們有撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
22822.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
22838.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
但是今天對於公叫退府來講93條為什麼要撥補呢請看大家看第一項第一項是中華民國12年7月1日以後出任公元者其退府制度由主管機關重新建立並另以法律定制其實過去常常來說確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
22840.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
22860.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
提撥制 確定給付制關鍵就在這裡因為從112年成為政府公務人員的人不再貢獻他的退撫基金在這個退撫基金當中所以這個基金會沒有再新的收入進來因此政府就必須想辦法讓這個退撫基金可以永續所以才有撥補的義務是來自於這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
22863.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
22873.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那請教一下那為什麼這些新進的公務員112年他不再加入了因為原來的退伍基金當中就是因為制度的轉變所以沒有新的錢進來我們就必須欠欠開大家再看第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
22878.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
22893.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
行政院政府依前項規定完成撥補後因依退伍基金財務精算結果接續分年編列預算撥補現金退伍基金以健全基金財務看到沒有就算是把前面112年任公務員的人的錢不再進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
22896.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
22920.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
政府一樣要對現在這個基金的繼續經營主席再給一點時間他要繼續撥補所以其實政府對我們退府基金公交退府是有持續的在幫幫他的延續他的財務但是問題來了這個水庫已經沒有新的公務員在提前進來了已經進來的錢要繼續給這些在職的人在退休的人要領到他結束那這時候我們有幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
22921.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
22941.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那個我們的這個委員張委員他提到說這個基金操作績效良好了我們會賺點年金很好但是呢我們今天的最大問題如果替代率沒有繼續調降到合理的水準我們出去的水會出去的更多我們已經沒有水進來了只能靠這個基金的營運來貼補還有靠政府的我們的撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
22944.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
22961.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那政府的撥補其實就是全民來補貼就是納稅人補貼那我們看看納稅人最多是誰是勞工啊勞工是1048萬啊但是這些貢獻稅金的勞工政府對他的勞保基金有沒有法律上規定政府要撥補呢沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
22962.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
22976.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
沒有 所以其實從平心而論我對於全國的軍公教人員 公教人員尤其是現在退休的 已經在領退府的我真的要跟各位這些工作的夥伴說政府對各位的照顧責任93條訂得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
22978.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
22992.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
但是就是因為這個責任的關係我們也不能任性的把自己從這個基金提領走的錢因著過去所得替代率的太高讓它提早的耗盡不然的話就是由全民來貼補那我回去回來那勞工怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
22995.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
23021.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
國民黨的朋友也說要照顧勞工啊勞工為什麼今天他的勞保基金他造成他水位不足的原因跟公教不太一樣我們公教人員的人數維持在40多萬沒有太大的變化但我們的勞工的人數勞保基金的投入人數是一直在降低因為少子化所以勞保基金的主要虧損不完全跟公教退伏一樣我們公教退伏是什麼存的少 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
23021.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
23040.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
領的多提存的少提領的多但是勞保基金的一個不足主要是什麼新進的工作人口加勞保的少退休去領勞保退休給付的多這兩者是截然不同的所以我真的要懇請公教朋友來體恤一下政府來說軍公教農 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
23041.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
23064.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
都是我們要照顧的對象但是我們也希望照顧農民照顧勞工對於政府直接僱用的公教人員我們政府已經特別照顧了93條已經有明確的說要撥補了但是我們不要加重這個負擔讓政府有餘力去照顧勞工照顧農民我還是要強調一次我們這個退伍基金退伍條例啊93條已經在各種保險當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
23067.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
23094.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
對公教人員特別好了所以我們請大家共同讓這個基金可以永續經營 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那還是請大家能夠嚴格遵守三分鐘的這個發言三分鐘沒有我說三分鐘我沒有說三十分鐘抱歉所以你們可能沒有聽清楚那接下來請陳培鈺委員發言好 我們很可惜沒有辦法先聽到張委員為什麼要提這一條第三條應該其實剛剛主席您應該先讓他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
23095.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
23116.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
如果是這樣的話張委員可以願意先談嗎你要先說嗎但是等一下我們其他根據這一條有發言當屆委員還是可以我們就還是按照程序走那請陳美語委員先發言沒有沒有我剛剛是請我剛剛再說一次我剛剛是說因為提案委員他還沒有說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
23117.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
23135.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
好來那謝謝主席我就先講喔因為我們看到張委員第三條的修法他多增加了第三項其實我們我認為他可能搞錯這兩個水庫基本上是不一樣的水庫因為呢84年以前退休的人員他們是N級制也就是說他的錢現在全部都是政府在出 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
23136.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
23150.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
他並沒有繳納保費而且他也是高所得替代率甚至他是比較短的工作年資而且是比較早的退休年齡也就是如果他的餘命很長他其實是領得更久更長更多而不用出錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
23151.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
23172.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
所以我不知道詹委員您是不是國民黨團呢在討論的時候是不是發現自己會把退伏基金這個水庫給用完怕這些84年以前退休的人沒有錢所以你就提了這個修法版本否則他其實照理說跟你們今天自己提的這個退伏條例其實不同一件事情因為他不是同一個水庫所以我剛才會說為什麼詹委員沒有先說明不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
23172.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
23192.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我還是要先提醒張委員您的修法版本我們目前看起來他應該不是在同一個水庫那既然您要提到所謂的所得替代率我們其實要提醒大家關鍵不只是所得替代率的部分而是實質的月退休所得到底夠不夠支應現在的生活我覺得這也才是全台灣國人要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
23194.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
23217.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
这些提案的委员所谓的十之月退休所得大家现在看到的数字好像就只有所谓的60% 70%可是大家不要忘记当时公示在计算的时候我念给大家听公教人员退休所得替代率的计算公式是用退休时候的本奉也就是年功奉的两倍乘以年资再乘以2%那也因为退休者本奉的两倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
23221.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
23242.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
比照現在的等級也就是現職公務人員的等級他的月薪平均會高出1.19倍因此年改前退休的人就是剛剛張委員您所關心的具有35年年資就算到118年月退休所得替代率是60%可實際上他所拿到的月退休金是71%你帳面上只有看到60%可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
23245.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
23261.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
你沒有把公視納進去看他其實是71%根本不是如同你們所宣稱的60%而且逐年往下我覺得這個數字非常的荒謬要拜託在黨委員看清楚所以如果根據你們的提案版本提早到115年就停止調降替代率增到66%之後其實他算出來的數字他拿到的錢是78%而66跟78他多少12% |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
23268.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
23295.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以當你們口口聲聲說本來可以吃五顆蛋現在只剩三顆蛋的時候你們根本就沒有顧及到數字背後它呈上的倍率我再強調一次替代率看到66%實際上它拿到是78%而你看到60其實它實際上拿到是71%所以才會出現早上我們說的那個數字是如此的驚人平均是五萬多塊我再說一次平均是五萬多塊以上所以如果根據你們的版本再提早到112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
23297.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
23325.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
替代率是69%可是他實際上拿到是81.6%請張委員算一算81跟69差多少都差百分之十幾這個中間數字差這麼大所以請不要再只有停留在看所謂替代所得率的調降這件事情請把相關乘上相關1.19倍這個數字算下去才是正確他所拿到所謂的實質月退休所得額這才是最重要的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
23327.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
23349.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好謝謝陳委員那接下來請吳思堯委員發言時間三分鐘再次要挑戰一下那個主席的主持如果不會主持可以問一下我們很多比較資深有當過交委的委員的經驗司法法治委員會因為我當立委三屆我也問了同仁雖然我之前在教育文化委員會從來沒有這三屆12年 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
23351.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
23358.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
沒有任何一個召委在主持條文的逐條審查是限定每個委員只發言三分鐘而且只有一輪前所未見 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
23359.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
23382.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我剛剛也翻了這個議事規則委員會的討論不管是個委員會組織法或是立法院議事規則從來沒有給予主席這種過當的權限我再次說就是害怕討論道理講不贏然後就來阻絕別人的討論這實在是讓人看破卡丘那回到那個委員所提的張志倫委員的第三條他整理了第三項我們就條文論條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
23384.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
23412.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
虽然在没有这个提案委员说明的状况之下我们很难探知他内心的世界为什么要这样提但我尽可能的来提出我的这个建议不采用的几个意见这四个意见第一个呢我们退服法在我们2018年完成年改之后其实呢在这个年改之后的就是在这个年改之后之前已经退休的公务人员本来就不是第三条的适用对象 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
23413.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
23437.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以說原本的這群人他的退休事項都本來就是依原來的退休法令的相關規定所以在這裡增列第三條的第三項在修法的法制上其實是沒有必要的這是第一個理由第二個理由呢我就說我很想探尋提案委員的內心世界所以我很認真的去看了他的提案的立法說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
23438.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
23459.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那我想他可能是呢為了要排除84年以前的以退人員的適用退服法來扣減退休金的規定這是他想做的但是呢委員也修錯條了如果你是要達到這個目的的話您應當去退服法第37條就是後面會討論到的條文去規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
23460.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
23480.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
他的排除條款應當是修37條我第三個反對的理由呢就是說年改我們調教所的替代率其實是一體適用的這是公平性的不管是以退休者或是未來即將退休者還要一體適用這就是維持我們改革公平正義所在如果你在這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
23481.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
23497.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
增列第三項去單獨排除了84年已退休的人員的適用怎麼講對於其他的公職人員公務人員都是不公平而且會要求比照這就是比不公平更不公平的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
23498.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
23524.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這是我第三個反對的理由第四個理由就是說現行的退伏法對於早年就已經退休的這些公務人員其實都有特別的配套機制的設定來想方設法維持他們的基本生活所需我要強調這些配套規定是維持這些早期退休的公務人員朋友們的基本生活所需而不是讓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
23525.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
23545.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
去滿足他可能要出國旅遊繳貸款這些顯然非基本生活所需之外這當然是法律做不到的所以說如果說要硬改這一項我覺得就是怎麼講呢本來就已經有規定然後你在這裡排除簡單講就是多此一舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
23547.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
23567.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
所以我的四句話四個結論增修第三條的第三項沒必要修作條不公平多此一舉所以我反對這個條文的修法如果張委員真的要修那也應當在等一下37條的部分可以把您想要修的部分容納在正確的條文裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
23568.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
23578.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
这是我努力去理解您修法的意旨虽然在您没有说明之前我们实在很难知道您这个不明就离的修法到底为何而来 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
23581.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
23592.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
好謝謝吳委員的發言我想我擔任司委會的這個新召委應該要有新氣象所以過去的舊習惡習不應該再充分討論是惡習充分討論是惡習你們接受這種說法嗎你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
23603.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
23609.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
又消音了 你們接受這種說法嗎你不要去影響到其他委員的發言請審發會委員發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
23618.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
23643.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
主席 各位同仁我想這個有關於公教人員的年薪改革這個議題其實在我們司法法制委員會已經討論非常多次非常多次今天早上整個廣泛討論的過程我本來也準備要講一些話但是我後來聽這樣子大家的討論我覺得其實我們該討論的真的都沒有討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
23645.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
23653.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
所以我就覺得說整個討論我聽到的國民黨民眾黨的委員就在整個發言的過程中大概就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
23656.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
23680.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
只要達成兩個目的第一個就是妖魔化年金改革這幾個字年金改革就是混蛋年金改革導致公務員報考少年金改革怎麼樣第一個先抹黑年金改革這四個字再來就是扣民進黨的帽子民進黨高級 年金改革大級民進黨欺負公務人員民進黨欺負公教人員大概就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
23681.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
23706.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
主旨就是这样子虽然每一个人口才都很好都有各种各式各样的方式来妖魔化年金改革来扣这个民进党的帽子不过这个我们也很多委员都回应了这也讨论这么多了这个大家也都是历史事实我们也不用再去列举了这个年金改革事实上真的启动年金改革高举年金改革大旗的他就是从 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
23707.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
23725.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
馬英九總統開始從當時的行政院長江亦華當時的考試院長關忠就是從他們開始啟動的從他們開始為什麼年輕人要改革今天早上大家所罵的這些話全部都是在罵他們三個開始至於未來的方案是怎麼樣是大家討論出來一個方案要怎麼樣改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
23726.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
23753.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那我就覺得說這個我也不想再講了我們回到我認為說我們在這在現在廣泛討論過了現在進行逐條我覺得至少我們應該要面對幾個問題就是大家在今天要表決要修法你們要表決要修法之前我覺得有一個最基本的應該要有一些問題應該要討論清楚應該至少在討論我們最後立法院司法法治委員會決定之前要讓國人了解我們討論的過程是這些就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
23756.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
23784.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
退府基金他不會用光的嗎把退府基金用盡了這個是一個假的議題嗎這個我覺得應該討論清楚他是不是退府基金永遠都用不完這個我覺得至少要討論清楚你說政府可以就不夠政府撥補不夠政府撥補政府 我們政府的財政在未來台灣社會結構的改變我們這個國家是不是能夠未來一直政府永遠無限制的這個動 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
23785.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
23795.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
可以永遠一直撥補下去撥補到讓大家每一個人都可以公平按照這個制度領到年金如果不改革的話如果現在停止調降的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
23796.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
23817.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
這個我覺得第一個最基本應該面對的議題再來如果今天我們開始停止這個所得地貸率的停止下降那接下來這樣子我們會提早到底這個基金影響到基金的財務是怎麼樣基金用光的年度是不是有提早 提早多少 多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
23818.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
23837.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那這個如果它提早發生了基金用光提早發生了那到底它影響的是哪一些人它有哪一些人受到影響現在幾歲的公務人員或幾歲的人到時候他會基金會用光他會領不到這個年金這個我覺得這個是我們在修法之前應該討論的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
23840.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
23869.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
再來我們這個現在大家在整個發言裡面是說現在這個退休人員民不聊生啦買不起東西啦現在我們到底這樣子到底我們現在如果我們今天停止開始這個所得替代率停止調降那這個實際上他的月領的退休金會變金會有什麼樣的改變這個我覺得也是今天應該討論的啊就我們現在修法之後到底影響到底變成退休領多少呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
23872.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
23897.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們現在要停止他跟我們現在這個他的月退所得到底是不是應該要跟現職的人員的薪資來掛鉤這個也是應該要討論的啊如果一直掛鉤如果說真的在職的公務人員跟退休的領的差不多那我幹嘛在職我趕快退休啊退休我就不用上班那領的差沒有多少公務人員調薪我這個退休金也跟著調 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
23899.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
23917.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個到底是不是應該這樣子我覺得這應該要討論這是我們今天修法我認為說還有很多我覺得應該我們討論的內容是這個而不是說誰欺負公務人員誰怎麼樣誰對公務人員我們對公務人員最好我們希望給公務人員多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
23920.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
23941.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個我還是希望懇謝的說現在廣泛討論已經結束了我希望說在逐條討論的時候我剛剛所提的這些問題大家應該要來討論大家如果不懂那我們可以請相關的單位來做詳細的報告讓數字至少在我們表決之前讓國人知道我們今天修法到底造成了我們國家未來什麼樣的影響謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
23942.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
23970.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好 謝謝審判會委員我們現在已經進入到第三條的諸條討論那接下來我們就請張志倫委員發言好 謝謝主席各位委員 各位觀演長那今天很開心來到司法法治委員會那這是我第一次發言那沒有想到在發言之前就受到很多委員的攻擊那我必須要講的是其實今天這個公務人員的修法其實都是很多辛苦的工作人員公務人員尤其是工會他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
23971.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
23992.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
殷切的希望我們去幫他們發聲所以我還是認為因為還是大家要理性大家一起來溝通第三條主要修正重點主要是要明確排除84年前退休的公務人員不受現行的退伏基金的限制為什麼要這樣說因為84年退休的人他們當時是走N級制其實我在立法說明都寫得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
23992.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
24007.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那時候沒有退撫基金的制度那些人當時沒有小基金退休金也不是從基金支出那現在基金不足為什麼要扣一扣他們的退休金來補動這樣合理嗎這是他們的心聲所以我們一定要來發表一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
24008.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
24033.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那更何況這些人已經八九十歲了所以剩下的人也不多了他們只是要的是一個公平正義國家就算維持給付對財政的影響也微乎其微所以等一下政府單位可以講一下這些財政的影響到底是多少那他們這些很老的公務人員只是想要維持最基本的尊嚴跟生活的保障其實這樣的修正就是在落實制度分流保障既有的尊嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
24034.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
24051.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
如果他們沒有得到他們就是因為認為沒有得到基本的保障他們才會請我們來提出這樣的修法所以當然我相信今天政府單位所寫的就是說有最低的保障可是就是因為他們沒有感覺到最低的保障所以才請我們修法 以上謝謝好 謝謝那接下來請張啟凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
24055.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
24070.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
剛剛那個發揮建議很好我記得要非常理性就整個理性物質科學去討論我現在要談一個最基本的就是今天好多民進黨立委在講說事實上公教人類已經撥補了有撥補嗎今天剛剛陳培宜講說撥補了2900多億有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
24078.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
24095.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
大家知道嗎那個撥補的你把最近這7年多砍了公教退休人員的錢這個拿進去叫做撥補那是他們養老跟他們的救命錢不要造謠你才造謠 你一開始就在造謠你要可以請主管機關來講那來了2900億的撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
24105.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
24118.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
拿來2900億的撥補 2700億你講的根本就是他們救命錢跟養老的錢第二個 扣掉這個2000多億事實上真正撥補到公教人員的去年 教育人員50億 公務人員50億 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
24127.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
24137.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
今年一百九十四 兩個加起來兩百九十四億這個還不是給舊制欸這就是給 剛剛口口聲聲在講的新制欸舊制一毛錢到現在都沒有補喔這樣公平嗎 我們現在講的是一個職業平等嘛我們贊成對勞工撥補 勞工有撥補啊勞工在過去七年補了五千八百多億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
24151.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
24162.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這樣不會太不平等嗎我們贊成對勞工繼續撥補就是落實民進黨講的撥補也是一種改革當時洪聖翰部長專案那邊請協賽業黨支持好 最後講一個重要的概念你不要在那邊打斷好不好不要打斷別的委員的發言最重要最後講一個最重要的觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
24172.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
24198.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我剛剛只是把你的講錯話把它調整回來這個我覺得你要面對啦那個我講一個很重要的概念今天我們的討論是建築在理性上面那要看哪一個單位提出來的儲管機關是考試院啊考試院當初的年改的版本是從所得替代率多少開始往下三八成嘛對不對每一年下降分十年一年下降一趴啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
24200.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
24217.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
可是後來過了誰的版本 段宜康的版本啊段宜康不是用80% 他從75 先砍了5%以後每一年不是1% 是1.5所以到今年已經砍了5加9 14%就是我們的退休人員到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
24220.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
24235.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
他被砍的已經遠遠超過當初的主管機關考試院的版本今天建新也在現場建新你現在總統府耶蔡英文提出來年金改革的委員會的也是從80開始到70就停啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
24236.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
24248.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
考試院的版本主管機關的版本跟年金改革的版本為什麼你們不尊重呢更重要的到現在為止已經砍了三分之一了35年年資的公教人員現在剩下大概66%你如果是35年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
24252.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
24280.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
沒有到35年就15年的話只有到35%砍過頭了請尊重主管機關當初提的第二個真的已經砍過頭了我們現在不是要回溯說回到以前的那種水準只是現在停下來好不好不回溯可是停下來讓我們的公教人員過一個有尊嚴有保障晚年謝謝好那謝謝那接下來因為剛剛有說請那個機關代表再發言那我想就是請那個市部長你三分鐘發言好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
24293.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
24315.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
主席您早上就只給他們三分鐘我來說明我想剛剛很多委員都已經把大致上問題都說明剛剛張委員一直講說主管計劃應該就數字來一個說明我先談一個事情當我們在談勞保撥補的時候相對的不應該是退府基金應該是公保因為這是社會保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
24316.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
24344.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那勞保現在五千一百七十億但是公保到目前為止已經撥補了五千一百四十大概五千一百五十億剩下大概要七百多億也在最近之前也會撥補完重點是政府把八十八年公保改造以後政府負擔全部的那個債務那但是在勞保這邊現在才一百零八年才一百零九年才開始我只是在提供事實的資料是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
24346.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
24365.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那第二個問題回到退幅那退幅的部分我們為什麼會講是說預註款就是一個撥補因為預註款確實是2590就是說從年改到現在是2590那2590裡面絕大部分其實就是優存18%的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
24365.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
24386.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那意思就是說這個是社會上一直覺得本來就有爭議的一個事情年改那時候討論也都同意讓優存直接儘快歸零所以才會說本來都是政府預算支出政府也沒有拿回去到別的地方通通回給基金等於是政府來撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
24387.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
24415.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
包括就職退休金也是一樣的道理所以這個概念我們認為它是一個撥補那至於你談的薪資那個純粹是另外一回事因為我們112年推了薪資所以才有93條的法律所以這個部分政府應該按照精算來撥補所以我們過去這三年呢公教大概撥了512億那這個都是法律在未來呢一定會再繼續撥補包括前面那個節省經費預註款根據法律一定要繼續撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
24417.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
24431.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這個大概我們精算報告裡面大概都講得非常非常清楚我只是在說明這個事實那至於說年改的時候考試院的版本我應該講全區部那時候版本就是跟年改會是完全一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
24432.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
24452.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我們提75到60但是在考試院的時候確實是用80到70送出來那我只能講是說那時候我沒有在在政府部門服務但是那是全序部就是跟年年輕改革會版本完全那送到立法院的時候差別就在於說那個本來呢是一年挑一趴改變成10年挑15 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
24455.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
24475.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我要講的是說那個本來條是75到60是一年一趴全序部跟那個年改會都是這個那放到立法院的時候才變成說10年1.5趴那考試現在80到70他也是一年一趴但是我要講的意思說本部的一個當初用精算概念的結果也是用75到60 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
24482.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
24500.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
主席是不是他沒有說明這一條是不是說明一下剛剛張志倫提案委員說請他們說明這個如果這個84年前退休人員因為都已經說明完了沒有 這個部分沒有說明剛剛那個登記主條這個84年以前如果說沒有說完的話待會還有其他條還可以再補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
24502.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
24519.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這一條讓他說一下這一條可以修嗎張志倫委員剛剛有說希望他們說明84年我覺得我們按照我們的程序如果他答非所問這是行政部門自己的問題好不好他剛剛在回答張啟凱委員的說法現在回答提問 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
24522.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
24526.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
張志榮委員的說法不讓立委發言也不讓官員說明不讓立委發言也不讓官員說明這怎麼討論啊有關84年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
24540.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
24540.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這裡有人談過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
24556.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
24581.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
有意義不通過好有意義我們就保留送協商又有不讓官員說明呢可是剛剛施部長講的他說未來要補那現在都沒有補啊像這個我們都要追問這條繼續討論啊你自己都說未來未來未來好那麼現在我們就進行第八條的討論那麼第八條是有張志倫委員等19人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
24581.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
24592.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那麼我們就現在先進行第八條的討論那首先先請中嘉賓委員發言時間三分鐘為限我的三分鐘請我們的部長繼續把剛剛要解釋的八字條講完請 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
24601.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
24622.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
84年以前已經退休的這個我們程序已經過了但是你總要講的讓國人知道讓這裡剛剛表決同意的委員他們自己讓他們知道我想剛剛那個第三條的意思在於說84年因為我們臨改的時候是大家一起的如果說你同意84年前都排除那後面的那個援引比照是非常非常可怕的一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
24623.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
24643 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那接下來我們退休人也有定期按那個調整的一個機制然後也有最低的保障金額所以我比較建議就是說這一條真的要謹慎因為他可能會有其他同樣是84年退休以後他也有救治啊可是你只排除他前面後面不排除會有點問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
24645.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
24674.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
剩下的時間還是我的所以我是說今天主席我們今天完全是就事論事像剛才前一條的發言我引用了93條其實93條就是現在我們公教退府當中非常核心的一個議題93條好好的落實做後面今天這5條其實都不用去處理就是按照93條的精神政府他就會按照93條第二項跟第三項持續地撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
24675.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
24683.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
剛剛我們提到了 如果是退府基金的話 這是職業退休金剛剛說到114年 因為112年實施之後 114到162還要再預注1.45兆喔這是我們目前政府根據93條它的一個責任那這當然呢 我們還要提到說專戶的部分 就是後來的專戶的缺口因為移除了112年之後新建的公務員那麼目前過去這三年 已經存了512億 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
24704.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
24709.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
這是用我們政府的預算去也是納稅人的錢未來10年還要持續地放3370億大家聽聽看未來10年還要放3370億進去這都是全民的納稅錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
24719.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
24723.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
政府為了照顧公教人員因為是政府僱用的人員已經要有這個規劃那我們應該努力的讓這3370億進來能夠達到它波補後讓基金可以永續經營但是不要我們後面一直波補你前面一直提領還是要強調一下公教退伍基金目前的問題早在它當年就核定了因為當時年改的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
24744.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
24770.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
當時在年改之前我們精算的提存是不足的沒有按照精算的結果公交人員在職的時候沒有按照精算結果去提存但是到了退休之後卻要按照這個所得替代率去提領大家想想看存的少 領的多這個基金當然不能永續後續政府已經努力的在撥補前面的挹注就必須靠降低所得替代率讓這些節約下來的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
24773.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
24789.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
就是這些已退休的人減少資領讓這些減少資領的回到基金 回到基金挹注所以我們要持續的回歸挹注也持續的依法撥補這樣子才是讓我們的退伍基金能夠永續能夠照顧我們公教人員唯一的方法好 謝謝鍾委員接下來請陳培鈺委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
24794.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
24808.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
好 謝謝主席關於這個修法的內容其實看起來我覺得這並沒有說明裁員要從哪裡來所以我也很好奇到底提出這樣修法委員這個修法版本的委員你所想像請要從哪裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
24809.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
24829.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那我的想像就是你們認為繼續掏空國庫掏空政府是你們覺得沒有問題的事情所以我想等一下我很希望就這個部分就在於在野黨的委員為什麼我要這樣說因為其實權序部已經一直拜託在野黨委員告訴你們說如果繼續如果要再停止調降所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
24830.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
24854.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那現在所有這些已經退休的人他們所得替代率上限會提高喔也就是你們說要停止了你們說是砍根本不是砍是停止而他們的實質月退休所得會比現在的五萬多塊還要來得更多而這個錢到底要從哪裡補你們甚至在法條裡面說法要政府相關預算可是這問題是基金用完的年度也會更提早 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
24854.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
24875.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
估計如果在112年停止調降公教人員基金挹注款合計要減少3323億元而用慶的年度也會提早4年大概到130年而如果你們又要要求要繼續維持用慶的年度是134年也就是說在你們的惡法假設三讀通過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
24876.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
24898.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
到130年然後你們要求政府用慶的年度要維持在134年那政府未來20年要繼續撥補要再負擔4460億元如果你們又要求分10年撥補就會是3600億而各位委員如果你們的版本又希望是114年或115年停止調降用慶的年度會提早到131年或132年 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
24900.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
24906.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
而這些提早用慶的財務缺口你們又希望繼續往後延然後加大這個缺口我真的不知道是誰要來負責還有我要說提早停止調降而且不讓用慶年度提早發生需要龐大的經費這件事情難道委員們身為一個負責任的立法委員難道都不用去思考這筆錢到底是誰買單嗎我要再次強調是全民買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
24925.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
24944.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
政府的錢不是從天上掉下來這個理由這麼簡單這麼清楚是全民納稅人在照顧在野黨的一己之私為了照顧特殊族群所製造的對立而這些人的人數比例跟勞工的比例相差甚大要拜託在野黨委員三思我要再次強調是全體納稅人必須要負擔這個財務缺口你們口口聲聲說政府政府政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
24952.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
24972.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我想小學生都知道政府的口袋不是哆啦A夢的口袋他不會變出錢他的錢是全民納稅人繳的錢所以你要全台灣的納稅人要一起負擔特殊族群你們為了照顧特殊族群的政治一己之私所造成的財務缺口我要拜託再次強調請你們煞車請你們停止做出這麼荒謬的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
24980.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
24984.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請吳思瑤委員發言時間三分鐘還是要挑戰一下我從來沒有看過主席的主持是這麼的阿爸就是我就是比你大所以你最大限制大家的發言然後限縮委員的發言限定三分鐘連官員說明條文的時間都不給 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
25002.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
25024.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這不是惡習什麼是惡習翁小玲主持的委員會的主條審查才是開創立法院民主討論的大惡習然後舊條文論條文第八條張志倫委員在第三項後面加了一半那很簡單四點回應第一個藍白的委員心知肚明知道你們這樣搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
25025.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
25048.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
終止了所得替代率的緩降 年金就是會破產你們已經心知肚明 遇見了這個後果所以 怕人話叫人 做賊喊抓賊喊抓賊 先在第三項後面下半段 要求中央要全扛因為你們已經看得很清楚 知道會破產而且要甩鍋給中央 這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
25049.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
25056.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
第二點呢你們的條文裡頭我們剛一直在講為什麼年金會破產現在的潛在的債負債是2.96兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
25060.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
25085.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
2.96兆我一再的说公务人员如果我们停砍了所得替代率17年后就会用尽教育人员14年后就会用尽这是横在眼前的威胁因为他注定会破产所以这几年来大水库的理论过去因为缴少领多啊所以造成这个大水库一直在漏水我们的责任年改就是把它补漏好不容易补漏了你们现在要 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
25090.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
25113.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這就是你們已經看到你們都心知肚明注定會破產你們這樣惡修下去會更快破產所以才會有你提的這個條文因為破產了誰扛政府扛然後政府誰扛中央扛就是你提這個第三項的後半部的原始就是這個原因而已第三點我非常反對抗國家之慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
25116.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
25128.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
這個退休金的制度就是政府扛一部分你退休者你自己現任的時候你要提撥原始是這樣的制度設計你現在破產以後全部讓納稅人的錢來補這個部分來補公教 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
25133.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
25145.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
一個退休退伏的制度是insider自己要承擔責任可是你制度的錯誤你讓outsider這些全民來買單破產之後全部政府撥補這完全都不公平不正義啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
25146.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
25173.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
所以說你一再的抗國家之慨現在呢 張志榮委員這個條文更可怕的地方是要求中央全扛抗國家之慨 破產之後中央全扛而且現在中央跟地方政府負擔這些退休大概是1比1的金額你要求說中央全扛 中央要負擔地方的兩倍所以你們好厲害 好棒棒啊藍白的委員提案停慨年金 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
25175.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
25204.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
改革走回頭路 加速了年金的破產然後呢 中央政府去背抗國家之慨 抗全民之慨去綁你們的鐵票居然還敢入法要求中央負擔破產之後這全部的兩倍有這種事情嗎有這種道理嗎你不只要政府全扛還要中央扛地方政府的兩倍這整個制度就歪掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
25206.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
25230.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
難道你們認為你們永遠不可能重返中央執政嗎這個財政的負擔中央現在財化法被你們挖走了4165億只要有稅計剩餘你們全部要來發現金中央的財源就一直一直被挖挖挖挖走了然後你居然年改停產之後破產之後中央全行要負擔地方政府的兩倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
25231.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
25250.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
這有什麼道理所以我早上說我要修正喔我說這整個年改法案有三大不公第一大不公是重退休輕限職第二大不公是重公教輕勞工第三大不公是公教破產全民買單不公我現在要增加第四公第四個不公 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
25251.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
25270.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
就是讓中央政府來承擔兩倍以上地方政府應當承擔的責任造成中央跟地方政府的不公這四大不公就會落實在張志倫委員第三條對不起第八條第三項你增列後半部可怕的地方就在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
25271.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
25295.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
最後我要求主席這個條文相關的部會有誰除了我們權序部師部長除了我們考試院的劉建新秘書長還包括財主單位因為這一條你要求的是中央來負擔涉及財源的支出第一個這是行政權你們又用一個立法要求中央增加政府支出那你就涉及行政權你又要違憲反正你們違憲很習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
25297.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
25315.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
沒辦法了那你最起碼等下討論你要讓財主機關來回答讓財主機關所以這個部分我怕你不會主持喔我先跟你講施部長要回答 梁秘書長要回答財主部分財政部跟主席都要回答好嗎那接下來我們要請審發會委員發言這就是惡習好 接下來我們請審發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
25328.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
25356.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
主席各位同仁齁這個剛剛是吳世耀委員所提的齁說這一條第八條這個要求中央政府扛這個中央政府其實不是現在的中央政府也不是民進黨政府這是未來的政府齁而且甚至他不是政府在扛他是未來的納稅人在扛未來納的稅一個基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
25357.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
25383.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這樣子搞 國家不是不會破產的希臘就破產 冰島就破產國家不是不會破產 為什麼因為你這些人口結構改變了少子化 未來繳稅的人沒有那麼多沒有現在這麼多人在繳稅但他們繳出來稅他們到時候要蓋一條捷運 沒有他們繳出來稅是要去補以前退休而且以前的人的這些退休金幾乎就占掉他們繳稅的一大部分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
25385.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
25407.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以這個條款就是在剝削未來就在剝削現在的年輕人所以我覺得這個大家要談清楚也要讓全民大家知道今天整個過程讓我又覺得感覺好像又回到國會擴權法案那種氣氛反正就是不用討論了反正你們就心意已決動員來表決贏了 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
25410.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
25437.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
就...就過了這個是最不好的立法方式啦齁我才有一些時間我希望說在這個...這個...這個...因為我很怕到做主席又不讓...又不讓...又不讓主管機關說明啦齁所以我還是要請...我...我還是請主管機關說明齁幾...幾個事情啦齁第一個你現在你...你先說明就是按照它這個第八條就...就這一條就...就這一條它這樣子立法會有什麼樣的後果這是第一個請...請主管機關說明第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
25440.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
25461.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
現在如果說我們照這些相關的提案我們開始提前停止降低這個所得替代率它對於這個基金財務的影響到底是多少多大的影響再來它會使這個基金用慶的年度提早多久提早幾年發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
25463.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
25480.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
然後這樣發生之後會影響到誰現在幾歲的公務人員到時候會受到影響如果我們提早基金提早用盡可能現在的公務人員就是現在他公務人員他到時候就基金就用盡了在他還沒退休之前這個我等一下要請主管機關來說明現在先用我的時間說明好不好你不完最後等一下再補那就先請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
25489.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
25504.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
謝謝我想簡單做一個說明這第八條裡面因為現在那所節省的經費因為經費是由各級政府來負擔如果說變成通通是中央政府負擔等於是中央政府要幫地方政府再多負擔這是很實際的一個問題這是第一個那當然第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
25505.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
25532.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
如果提早停止停止調降大概我們估算就三到四年提早三到四年三到四年的概念是我們當初年改的時候從一百二十變成一百三十八左右大概是只有二十年又提早了三十年那比例其實是蠻大的第三個如果預估在一百假設最早是在一百一十三年左右我們可能在一百三十年左右就可能會用盡這時候一百三十年用現在來推算的話現在六十一歲以下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
25533.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
25546.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
人都可能是在基金用盡完以後還會領基金這是一個很嚴肅的61歲以下是包括可能有些是已退的人有可能是但大部分都是現職的一個人我想做這樣一個說明好 謝謝那接下來請張志倫委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
25552.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
25573.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好 謝謝這第二次在司法法治委員會發言那我覺得這個一直我是在講我們這個公教員的基金的撥補我們當然希望說中央要挹注多一點的資金那剛剛很多委員又在攻擊我也不知道為什麼我想要請教的是老保即將在六年破產那我請教是誰在撥補老保的基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
25575.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
25604.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
還不是政府中央政府在撥補勞保的基金還用不只是用一般預算在撥補還用特別預算在撥補那為什麼我們現在公教員的這個退休金現在中央就好像考慮不撥補所以我想要請這個我們行政單位來講就是因為過去這麼多年來中央撥補的經費不管在勞保公教退休金都不足才有這麼大的缺口嗎我想請承信部回應難道過去你們要求中央政府的撥補的預算中央都有撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
25606.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
25634.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
撥補到位嗎就是都沒有撥補到位嘛所以我們現在才希望說提一個第八條希望中央政府應該要逐年編列預算把過去很大的這個破洞跟缺口要好好依照入法來撥補嗎難道今天程序部會跟我講說我們之前要求的請中央政府撥補的錢都有撥補嗎就是沒有撥補才那麼大的缺口嗎那難道現在勞保基金是誰在撥補難道不是中央在撥補嗎為什麼對公交員就這樣差別待遇這樣誰能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
25635.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
25654.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
以上那麼現在登記主條討論發言的委員都已經發言完請主管機關再說明一下因為他剛剛是用我的時間再請退府司司長嗎3分鐘說明還是請部長說明3分鐘為限 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
25656.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
25684.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我想剛剛有關那個那個中央跟地方負擔我剛剛已經做說明了那剛剛這個張委員提的一個還是要分兩塊屬於本來退府基金這一塊的大水庫不足的部分我們從年改以後剛剛已經講過就按照法律規節省的經費全部都回去移住這個也跑不掉精算以後也一定要繼續丟進來這肯定跑不掉但是新制的部分那過去中央政府不足撥補的金額大概多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
25685.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
25706.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我們已經丟進去2000我是問你不足的部分是多少如果用基金的一個負債就是2兆2.96兆元就是我們講未精算的那個未提損的精算負債這個就是大家一起造成的因為以前不足而提撥 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
25710.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
25735.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
不是 如果你講的是那個10年撥補20年撥補那個落差的話那事實上那個只是撥補的速度其實最後都會到位就是剛剛中央兵委引述的那個93條裡面因為112年新制成立之後新的人不進來所以政府有一個撥補的義務要分年撥補的義務要把那個洞補起來使得基金不要提前4年破產那所以為了那4年政府我們就有跟主計總書來討論要用花10年還是花20年把它補起來但是不管怎麼樣那個最後都會到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
25736.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
25755.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
如果依照我們現在的討論就像花20年每年撥補200億出頭它最後都會到位它雖然不是像用10年的速度那麼快但20年之內它還是會被補起來那個是現在法律裡撥補的定義它只是補的速度是10年還是20年 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
25762.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
25764.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
回答完畢了嗎部長剛剛說還有主計總署是不是主計總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
25771.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
25795.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
麻煩也三分鐘維線主計總署這邊說明因為首先來講這個財基法第七條就有規定了就是立法機關他在制定或修正法律的時候不可以增訂那個固定經費額度的保障那這次修法裡頭就已經明確去講到說中央政府應該要逐年的就是針對編列預算不可以低於 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
25796.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
25824.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
各級政府每年節省經費支出的那個兩倍那這個部分來講可能就有違反財政紀律法之餘那再加上那這一次修法去規範一個最低撥補的金額可能也會造成未來不同職業別的修法他會有一個原因比照的問題那考量就是現在這個公務人員退休資權撫恤法他第七條件明確規範就是政府是負最重的支付保證責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
25826.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
25845.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
然後再來就是第九條第三項的部分也有提到就是我們的新制退伏制度建立以後那個政府會針對那個精算的結果完成那個新制退伏制度的撥補以後就接續分年編列預算去撥補這個退伏基金那考量就是我們現在的制度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
25847.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
25860.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
已經有確保退伏基金的財務安全那是否懇請就是說在嚴守這個財政紀律的情況下我們這次修法不要去限定我們這個編列這個撥補退伏基金的一個預算金額以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
25863.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
25884.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好 謝謝機關的說明那現在登記主條討論發言的委員以及機關代表都已經發言完畢了討論結束那針對第八條的案子我們是不是就照案通過反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
25893.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
25919.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
接下來我們就進行第37條國民黨黨團提案委員賴士寶等31人提案委員張志倫等16人提案委員張家俊等23人提案委員徐欣盈等20人提案委員邱振軍等25人提案委員陳昌明等19人提案委員徐宇珍等20人提案委員張志倫等19人提案委員馬文君等20人提案委員王宏威等25人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
25919.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
25920.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那麼現在進行發言討論首先先請吳思堯委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
25948.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
25972.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我認為身為這一屆的立法委員心中有無限的感慨我們在面對這個年改嚴肅的議題我早上說了如果藍白硬推國民黨的對不起馬英九因為馬英九過去說年改今天不改明天就會後悔所以羅志強你對不起馬英九民眾黨的委員對不起柯文哲主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
25973.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
25993.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
柯文哲過去也說年改是一定要做的事他甚至痛罵反年改是王八蛋但是今天藍白的委員惡意持續的要讓年金改革喊卡坐在我對面的幾位委員大家可以看一看民進黨的委員我們準備充分我們就條文就數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
25994.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
26012.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
理性 務實 科學我們希望可以這樣來理性對話只是對於我坐在對面的委員我想也都沒有仔細在參與我們認真的討論那汪小玲主席只想趕快讓時間三分鐘 三分鐘然後pass過去保留送協商就如此而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
26013.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
26037.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我覺得這種討論是非常沒有品質是民進黨的委員在這裡努力認真的發言而我們的理性論述丟到半空連這條線都過不去這是無比悲哀的事年金的負債2.96兆如果今天終止了所得替代率就是現在要進行的這第37條 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
26040.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
26069.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
這是最核心的條文如果讓所得替代率終止了那麼公教本來改革之後134年才會破產會提早到131年就破產教育人員的退伏經過改革可以延緩到131年才破產現在又大幅的提前到民國128年就破產這都讓我們的改革功虧一簣 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
26070.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
26095.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這是一個重中之重也是惡中之惡的條文因為就是這一條你們要終止所得替代率的緩降我早上說了手上這一本是我們今天準備在這裡討論的重要依據就是第九次的精算報告290頁藍白的委員沒有人讀哪裡理性務實科學 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
26097.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
26124.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
來這裡亂講一通好290頁你不願意讀那麼請把全序部今天整理只有22頁的這一份說明資料你好歹看一下吧你不願意看那吳思瑤懇求你們就看這一份報告的最後一頁第22頁就看這一頁就好我懇請在野黨委員你們認真的看一看基本的數字好好面對你們的惡修 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
26126.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
26145.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
就看這一頁如果所得替代率終止了然後回溯年改停在112年國民黨的版本那這樣子的話公教人員平均可以領的退休諷列在這裡非常的清楚平均數會來到5萬5 5萬6一個月退休諷 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
26151.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
26180.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
週休七日月領五萬五 五萬六這不是勞役不均嗎不上工月領五萬五 五萬六這是平均數這對於現職服務的公職人員 公務人員們是他們的七成星啊週休七日月領現職人員的七成星 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
26182.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
26209.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這是什麼公平正義啊拜託藍白的委員290頁的資料你們不願意花時間細讀這一本只有22頁今天在審查這個嚴肅的太激動的議題的時候這一本你看一下好嗎最後一頁就清楚的告訴我們如果喊卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
26210.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
26226.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
而且回溯到112年公教人員所領的月退奉平均都來到55000 56000回到我早上拿的這一張圖表勞工朋友月領25000老農月領8100國民年金月領不到4000元 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
26236.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
26245.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
勞工有1048萬人口公教人員58萬人公平正義是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
26247.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
26269.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這個條文就是重中之重對在野黨的委員你們加一項就是停侃文字寫幾個字結束可是對於國家財政的負擔對於其他職業的剝削對於整個國家財政造成的壓力讓年金提早破產你們可以負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
26270.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
26291.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我知道我在這裡認真講主席翁小林委員只等著時間趕快過然後等一下給吳思耀消音然後在我對面我在對牛彈琴欸我在狗吠火車欸你們這些委員來來去去誰認真在這裡面對任何一個文字誰認真在這裡面對任何一個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
26293.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
26303.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
你們這些委員誰在負責任的看待你們今天要挑的法案你們知不知道現在在說什麼你們自己提的法案不會說明 不敢說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
26320.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
26338.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
還沒有說明 請問一下你不會看喔你耳朵聾了 你眼睛也瞎了嗎我尊重整個程序是你沒有在尊重程序啊我耳朵沒有聾 我眼睛沒有瞎我從頭到尾就看在你對我們的發言你完全都左耳即耳出你尊重別人的私下言論如果陳柏宜不願發言就下一個發言好不好好 現在將時間先暫停麻煩時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
26347.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
26357.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
沒有 就是 請主席還我時間三分鐘 謝謝主席 您今天已經是死人接下來就請參加委員繼續發言為委員會打斷他的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
26360.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
26363.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我還是要抗議喔 而且剛剛在野黨委員不斷地把勞保還有退福搞錯了 我要再次提醒在野黨委員請你們把保險跟退休金分開來看勞保要對照公保 退福基金要對照勞退那政府到底花了多少錢 多少撥補我來講給你們聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
26378.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
26381.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
政府對勞保的撥補從109年開始到115年累計編列5170億這是勞保的部分可是公教保險的部分從88年財務重整而重整前的負債已經由政府分年撥補全數負擔請聽好到目前為止已經累計達到5141億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
26402.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
26405.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
剛剛造謠的張志倫委員還有早上造謠的張啟凱委員說我們對於公保沒有撥補沒有照顧請聽清楚了請把公保跟勞保對照看另外退休金的部分等一下我要說公教保險的部分除了我剛剛說的5141億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
26418.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
26436.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
後續還有720億加起來5800多億全部都是由政府負擔也就是政府對於公保過去的負債負完全撥補的責任而且即將完成這是第一個公保請對照老保請在黨的委員不認真修法也認真看清楚相關數字再來退休金的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
26437.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
26451.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
退休金勞退基金因為是採個人帳戶制政府完全沒有撥補可是至於年改也就是你們現在要動的這個部分年改後到113年政府對於退府基金的挹注款已經累積有2590億接下來114年到162年依法合計 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
26458.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
26470.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我說的是年改前年改後我們修的法不是你們現在即將修的二法還要一柱達1.45兆另外關於專戶新制的缺口3年以來已經累計編列512億元撥補預計分10年撥補合計會達到3370億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
26479.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
26486.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
而我們講的這些數字我要請在黨委員謹慎的思考勞保參加的人數是1048萬人公保有約58萬人這個規模數據相差如此的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
26494.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
26522.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
也就是說政府到目前為止我剛念那些數字請委員們你們加減乘除算一下對每一個公保參加人的撥補數超過每一個勞保參加人這麼多這樣真的合理嗎這樣真的符合世代族群職業之間的公平正義嗎而不要再造謠說只有撥補勞保會不會你們連勞保跟勞退都搞不清楚公保之餘退服都搞不清楚根本不知道自己在講什麼不知道自己在修什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
26526.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
26527.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
好接下來鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
26532.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
26535.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席根據我們這個條文裡面其中因為我們一直在討論有關於各族群各職業的一個橫平性跟公平性所以在我的提案裡面其中是有一些君職然後他轉文職的 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
26556.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
26559.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
但是他卻因為在轉文職的時候他前面的軍職的年資就不予計算所以導致他的所得替代率偏低所以我們在這次的修法裡面我們有幾位委員針對這個不公平的現象在37條裡面予以修正這個是我在提案37條裡面跟我們委員會來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
26584.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
26586.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
至於從早上到現在看得出來因為民進黨為了阻擋老師說前面有一些他們的談話或者他引用一些報告我覺得這個都可以充分討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
26600.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
26603.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
但是到現在到了下午可能他們已經詞窮了幾乎我都在聽倒帶的事情包含什麼對不起馬英九啦對不起柯文哲早上不是已經有了嗎下午還要繼續對不起所以我們待會這個15分鐘之後是不是要繼續對不起誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
26615.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
26617.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以我覺得這樣子的討論我必須說浪費時間而且不停的來攻擊主席甚至攻擊其他的委員從早上到現在為止我是第一次發言我聆聽大家的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
26632.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
26636.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
然後呢 竟然就會被講說 你都沒有再仔細聽現在是怎麼樣的狀況啊如果今天我們的討論變成一個唯心論甚至呢 這個我想委員不管你的主張是什麼 大家互相尊重而不是今天連坐在這邊的委員大被另外的委員來做這個來judge他 還說你有沒有仔細聽這會不會太誇張了 這是討論嗎這不叫討論 這是惡意的杯葛 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
26661.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
26664.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
另外就是有關於我們現在這次的修法之前其實大家也提到了因為它是一個所得替代率的停侃我覺得有很多的現在一些謬誤也應該讓社會大眾能夠了解第一個它是停侃 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
26679.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
26682.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
並不是恢復所以剛才我有聽到對面的陳培鈺委員義正詞嚴在那邊氣噗噗講說這是照顧什麼特殊的族群而且會讓他更增加這完全是這個造謠我必須講這完全造謠也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
26699.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
26715.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
今天是一個所得替代率的停砍怎麼可能會變成你所領的退休金反而增加了呢所以我覺得這是完全的謬誤和造謠所以我剛才說其實我們希望能夠有更理性既然有理性討論至少不應該再做造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
26718.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
26722.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那另外呢其實因為我們原來按照年金的這個計畫跟這個設計是到2029年它停侃到2029年所以它確實是提前的讓它停侃這個所得替代率但這不代表說今天把所有現在在退府基金裡面所有的這個虧損也好啦或者這些財務負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
26747.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
26750.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
全部讓現在只有四年就是未來還有四年我們是提前四年的提侃那不要把它變成說好像每一年都一直提侃然後我們突然嘎然而止我覺得這個就是說我們必須把現在我們實際我們現在修法跟原來的計畫要依法依實 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
26768.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
26771.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
按照事實的跟社會大眾報告而不是在那邊危言聳聽而且過去真的羞辱羞辱這些退休的這個公教人員也好啦或者什麼你週休七日你月領多少錢月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
26785.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
26795.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
這個都是當年就是在羞辱這些退休的這些我們的公教人員如果還要再羞辱一次然後無限制的來羞辱我覺得這絕對不是社會之福而且我們在討論這個事情的時候不要刻意的去製造不管是族群的對立或者世代的對立以上 謝謝主席不公平 超過一分半鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
26810.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
26839.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我要表達的是我今天對於民進黨委員的發言我都給予最大的寬容三分鐘之後至少都有兩分鐘所以我們的權益發言你說你寬容我這不是你的施捨這是我們發言的權利你是主席你不是上帝你不是施捨給我們的三分鐘為限但是民進黨委員的發言都超過了兩分鐘我基本上才會站起來所以請尊重主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
26839.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
26853.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
主持會議的這個這個權責那麼如果說是待會陳培宇委員吳四堯委員你們都堅持要遵守會議秩序的話那我三分鐘之後就立刻消音好那現在先請懲罰會委員發言好主席各位同仁現在就進入今天最核心的條文三十七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
26863.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
26875.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
大概剛剛前面那兩條之後 只有一個委員提案那比較奇怪但這個是最核心就是要開始停止第三十七條就是要開始這個所得替代率的停止調降 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
26877.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
26894.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那剛才王宏威委員 王宏威委員今天是第一次發言所以我也很仔細聽了他在裡面提到違心論 提到違言聳聽那我就為了避免說我們的討論變成違心論所以我就是在這最核心的這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
26896.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
26907.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我希望就是大家在這個條文等一下你們要舉手強行表決之前我希望能夠至少在司法法治委員會對國人說明清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
26909.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
26936.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這個原本調降按照原本的計畫原本調降是到2019年118年要停止現在我們提前如果今天修法要通過再三十幾條就提前四年那我們基金的這個基金用慶的年度也提早四年提早四年那這個我們提前停止這個降低所得替代率他對我們這個基金的財務的影響到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
26937.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
26953.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
具體的數字我們知道一定是影響很大那具體的數字我們這個具體的數字是什麼會必須我們合計如果我們未來這個20年的時間來撥補大概要多少的錢這個我覺得這個才不會是違心論我們來實際討論這個那剛剛我有問到但是剛剛因為回答時間很短就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
26967.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
26976.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
我們基金提早用盡的年度提早這麼多年那麼到底誰會受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
26978.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
27007.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
現在的退休者會不會受到影響現在已經退休的人會不會受到影響現在還沒退休的人會不會受到影響如果基金提早四年用慶那會影響到哪一些人哪一些人幾歲以前你剛有提一個61歲的數字你應該要說明給大家清楚為什麼61歲的人受到影響那現在已經退休的人他在這個提早四年用慶他會受到什麼樣的影響這個我覺得今天這一條要修我們要修 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
27008.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
27030.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
就照理講如果說大家都沒有說政黨的立場在這邊我們今天該討論的就是這個啊就是這個為什麼我們要把它停下來當初這個年金改革不是說對公務人員說他們混蛋我們要讓他們難過不是 而是你這個基金會用盡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
27031.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
27050.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這基金不是永續的因為過去的提撥不足所以我們現在所以他過去制度設計的時候這也不是國民黨的錯不是現在國民黨的錯是以前國民黨的錯設計了這種制度那現在我們大家就是要面對這個問題才要年金改革啊要不然馬英雄說年金改革他就頭被他打了年金改革那現在我們要把這個改革說我們停下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
27058.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
27074.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
就從今天修法之後我們就不要再調降了好 不要調降那造成什麼樣的影響它提前四年基金用盡那影響是什麼你要讓受影響的人提前知道啊這是我們立法者的義務啊這樣才不會是王國威委員講的違心論啊大家在那邊憑情緒 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
27077.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
27100.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我們就是要講這個數字它就不會是唯心論那數字講出來我們精算 我們這都有精算嘛講出來它就不會是唯言聳聽啊也不會是王宏輝講的唯言聳聽啊它就是具體的數字講出來哪些人受到什麼影響它在基金用慶的時候現在幾歲的人在我們提早的四年基金用慶那對他們有什麼樣的影響這部分我等一下請主管機關要說明清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
27104.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
27114.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
好那麼謝謝沈委員的發言那因為剛有提到就是說這金融金融的問題那前早四年跟晚四年反正都會破產那你是不是可以請市部長來解釋一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
27115.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
27141.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
我跟委員報告 如果我們提早停止調降的話預估就要提早4年用盡提早4年用盡的意思如果你不想讓這4年提早用盡就要有人去撥補預估這撥補的數如果分20年撥補合計大概要4460億這是沒有折現的所以這大概就是一個財務的 純粹為了這4年你必須要丟進去這麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
27144.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
27171.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那如果說我們現在能夠讓這個好好一直到118年根據年改的方式至少這個就沒有什麼問題但是118年以後即使停止到那裡我們水庫後面還是會破產我想所以我們一直認為說不要再讓他提早用盡是這個意思那第二個解釋是剛剛提到均值這個年資的一個部分我就一起說明因為均值的人因為他退的時候他已經拿過錢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
27173.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
27184.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以他既然已經拿過錢我們這個制度上不可能說同一年的一個年資突然又在兩個地方分別這個計算這個對任何人來講都不是公平的事情所以這一點也跟委員做這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
27189.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
27205.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
好因為還有些時間好麻煩對還有一分那個剛才部長講的就是說為了要這個提前這四年的就是我們停侃提前四年所以你說提前四年所以我剛剛講說提前四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
27206.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
27221.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
就是本來應該是到118年就停止那我們現在把它延長到113年 當然民眾黨是114年那所以為了這個樣子所以呢你要多增加支付4446億是這樣子嗎4446億分20年的話多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
27229.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
27241.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
可是那假使你今天如果不在那個等於說到118年他停卡一直到118年的話你要撥補多少錢呢應該要撥補的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
27247.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
27264.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
新人新制提撥完以後後面就是根據那個那個我們會有每年挹注款的部分還是要根據法律一直你要不要挹注還是要給撥補嗎對 還是要挹注那撥補多少這個精算報告裡面會有每一個年度我們只要算說撥補多少114到162年精算報告這樣累計要1.45兆元 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
27275.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
27298.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
所以一樣要4.65兆元嗎1.45兆元然後如果你先不停砍因為我看到你們的數字是如果未來假使他不停砍這四年他挹注這個基金是2800億左右不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
27303.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
27321.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
他挹注基金應該是2800億你現在未來呢未來這過去發生在2700億2700億挹注基金如果他未來再停侃一直停侃到118年他挹注基金多少沒有我要講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
27332.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
27335.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
老實說 就在2800億左右而已我們這邊講到好像好像是這天道塌下來了我們馬上財政就要垮了講了老半天是多少錢呢那個規模是多少呢那個規模大概是2800億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
27352.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
27369.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那規模就是2800億所以我的意思就是說大家一直在以說這個停產年金就是會影響財政我同意 這個確實因為你就停止挹注這個基金而這個停止 我說它只是提早4年它不是提早40年好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
27371.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
27381.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
它不是提早40年 它是提早4年而這4年你少撥補的基金的規模是2800億2800億左右所以今天我們一再討論從早上到今天討論那麼久就是2800億的規模可是現在我們看到我們政府的財政2800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
27391.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
27412.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
老師說我們一個特別預算都是2800億的報幾倍了所以我在這邊要特別講一下就應該講說我們沒有做功課什麼等等之類的所以你這個東西你應該要對社會大眾說清楚你在這個前提我同意會不會影響這個退伏基金比如說你提早破產因為提早破產就要提早撥補然後你會影響這個基金的水位會影響基金的水位會不會影響政府的會但它規模是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
27421.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
27432.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
不要把它講的2800已經把它講到好像20兆那種感覺或2兆那種感覺好不好要提供正確的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
27433.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
27451.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
好 謝謝王委員還有市部長這邊的發言那麼我們剛剛這一條的登記主條討論的發言委員都已經發言完畢了我們就討論結束那接下來我們就針對第37條以及附表3然後包含修正動議1修正動議2的這個案子然後我們來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
27454.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
27465.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
就一併保留就一併保留反對通過就一併保留接下來我們就再進行第38條的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
27468.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
27487.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那麼第38條總共有委員賴世寶等26人提案委員徐欣盈等20人提案委員王宏威等19人提案委員廖偉祥等20人提案委員林世民等16人提案委員楊瓊英等27人提案委員林倩琦等21人提案委員翁曉琳等3人所提修正動議委員黃國昌張祺凱等5人所提修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
27492.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
27515.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
好 那我們現在進行討論那麼請吳思瑤委員先發言剛剛王洪威委員的發言我是覺得非常的嘆為觀止退府基金的制度設計是什麼就是參與這個退府基金的本體就是公教人員他與政府來共同提撥 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
27517.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
27530.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
而不是像王宏威說只要兩三千億啊國家有錢啊拿國家的錢去補就好了這就回到我說的造成全民買單的那個不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
27532.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
27551.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
政府基金的設計就是insider公教人員跟政府共同提撥而不是像在野黨委員說拿納稅人全民的預算 outside的錢來補給公教這就是天大的不公平這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
27552.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
27555.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
第二點天確實是要塌了呀王宏威委員對你們在野黨而言兩三千億隨便提一個錢坑法案亂花就沒了兩三千億是什麼錢但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
27568.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
27572.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
就制度面這些公教人員因為你們今天提出來的停侃年金就會造成提前4年的破產公務人員17年後退休的人他可能領不到了業他就是天塌下來了呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
27587.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
27607.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
教育人員14年後退休的他就領不到退休金了這對他來講就是人生的黑暗啊怎麼可以講得這麼雲淡風輕兩三千億隨便國家拿錢來處理就好因為您對於退府基金的制度設計的原理完全是錯誤的解讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
27609.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
27626.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
应当是insider公教人员跟政府共同提拨而不是你们爱怎么样用国家全民的钱去补多少都可以爱怎么花就怎么花康国家之慨康人民之慨这是你们对于退府基金整个认知的谬误 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
27628.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
27646.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
然後再講這個條文跟37條一樣規範的只是分別法施行的之前已退跟新退的人員而已但它本質都是一樣就是所得替代率停止調降以及我現在講的是一個重點因為剛剛37條沒有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
27649.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
27664.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
你們無視於原本就設有的機制只要CPI上下5%就要調整退修縫以及4年就要檢討一次這是原本就有的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
27665.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
27681.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
这几年来已经两度调升退休奉调了6%这是原来就有的这就是为了因应物价调涨来协助退休人员他领的退休奉也可以跟着upgrade这几年已经调了两次6% |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
27684.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
27692.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那你現在又要跟現職的公務人員只要調薪那退休人員他的退休分也要跟著調他會造成雙重的調整他確實會造成雙重的調整這就是懲罰現職的公務同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
27706.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
27723.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
懲罰現役的公教同仁這就是非常不合理不正義的地方所以他不只產生了雙重調整的不合理的機制你甚至會去影響現職的公務人員他覺得我乾脆提早退休就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
27724.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
27742.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
我乾脆提早退休就好了這更不利於我們政府人力的運用如同羅志強委員在說的現在報考的人已經變少了那我們是不是要留住優秀的公務人員在他退休前的合理的服務期程裡頭來貢獻才華服務人民呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
27746.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
27763.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
可是你這個法一修下去以後好我最後要結束了你一旦修下去以後你會大量的造成現職的工作人員不如早退休因為我可以週休七日還領七八成薪提早的離退就是讓我們的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
27764.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
27777.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
人員的利用對於國家的服務是不利的所以有很多的負面的效益請所有的委員都要三思 都要三思那不要真的 我就講到尾聲 我很認真在講這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
27785.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
27798.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
等一下主席就是等著吳斯堯發言完 這幾位發言人啊 保留通過這樣討論實在沒什麼意思啦 非常悲哀啦司法法治委員會 這樣討論真的是我們對不起國人請陳培宇委員發言 謝謝好 謝謝主席喔 我其實非常遺憾聽到王宏威委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
27808.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
27810.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
這2000多億需要花這麼多時間討論嗎我就問你覺得不需要嗎你的意思是公開告訴國人國民黨委員的素質就是2000多億不用花一整天討論更不用講早上12點以前主席就沒收了發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
27826.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
27843.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
你們又不敢停止討論就只敢喊休息下午兩點半開始每一個委員又只能限制發言三分鐘甚至相關的官員坐在後面也沒有辦法好好講話所以就國民黨民眾黨來說全台灣人人民的納稅錢兩千多億不值得你一個立法委員好好上班坐在這裡討論嗎我就問 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
27846.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
27871.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
而現在更荒謬的是你們繼續說這些人現在要活不下去了沒有辦法上餐館五顆蛋變三顆蛋這樣的話我想全台灣人民都聽見了而這個荒謬的數字我要再講一次給所有委員聽而且我要提醒的是我們今天都沒有在講空飯的概念我們一直提出正確的數字想要拜託在野黨的委員停止這個荒謬的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
27874.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
27888.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我們來看一下114年全體退休公務人員平均10支月退休所得是50656元而退休的教育人員是57973公教平均超過55000的佔比是33%和68% |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
27898.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
27918.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
更讓大家覺得很不可思議很羨慕的數字是超過六萬塊的有百分之二十一和四十一也就是在公教的部分是二十一跟四十一的人是超過六萬元如果值等更高的退休金當然也就更多而年改後的退休者 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
27919.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
27935.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
因為他們在現職服務在公教的崗位上的時候有多次的調薪因此我要再次提醒平均的實資月退休所得都高於我剛剛念的平均數字公務人員會從108年的51546元增加到114年的58995元 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
27944.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
27968.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
教育人員會從58,688元增加到63,934元請在野黨委員播一下你們的計算機這樣的退休金你跟我說他沒有辦法上餐館你甚至跟我說他沒有辦法繳他退休後的房貸我認為全台灣人民納稅人都聽不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
27969.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
27992.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
而這樣的數字你們認為是要拿來照顧一個退休的人是不夠的但我要提醒這個退休合理的職業退休金制度的設計是維持基本經濟生活它一點都不應該包含照顧家庭成員跟支應全部的生活支出還聽到房貸這兩個字真的讓我覺得非常的驚訝 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
27993.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
28003.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
而不要忘記了台灣有社安網台灣有完整的長照醫療制度我相信在不同的委員會上不同的委員關心相關議題也都非常的清楚台灣的社福醫療支出屢創新高很多委員在地方上也聽到長照2.0做得非常的好而這些醫療的所需都是屬於國家整體社會福利政策的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
28018.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
28038.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
本來就不應該是相關退府基金最是提撥率下要去負擔的項目所以我要拜託委員兩千多億絕對值得你好好坐在這裡一天兩天三天好好討論而不是坐在對面抱怨兩千多億不值得你花時間坐在這裡討論更不要講王宏威委員您早上還沒有出現 謝謝對不起我抗一下他說我早上沒有出現眼睛瞎了 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
28048.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
28077.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好我想今天的這個程序發言表決完就走我們今天所有的討論國會頻道都有轉播所以誰有在場誰沒有在場清清楚楚那接下來我們就請中嘉賓委員發言我想在主席的強力控制之下在場的其他沒有登記發言的委員就是等著要表決或者是要喊保留或者是說等著把這個法案送出去但是我還是必須透過逐條的方式來說明一下這一次國民黨版 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
28077.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
28104.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
包括由民眾黨支持的這些所謂的年金反改革方案大概集中在現在38或說37條的副表3或者說37條的第5項以及第67條這其中包含三個重點第一個就是停止降低所得替代率不管是從80降到70還是從75降到60不管是分10年還是分15年其實年金改革一個最重要精神就是回歸到公教退府 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
28105.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
28133.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
他不應該提領的少而提存的少而提領的多我們想想看如果一個人工作25年卻要在後面退休後去領35年請問他在職期間豈不是全部繳來的薪水都要繳出去提存才能支應他退休後的生活嗎所以基本上各國的年金制度很少超過我們所得替代率五成或六成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
28134.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
28148.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那目前我們抓最上面降到所得替代率六成百分之六十這是一個非常合理的但是如果還要把所得替代率逐年調降到六十這樣的情況擋下來那無意的就是拿自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
28149.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
28153.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
也是拿整個退府基金來開玩笑那麼剛剛我很遺憾的聽到國民黨在野黨的委員說這個就拿什麼就撥補啊撥補兩千多一三千那沒什麼我還是要提醒一下今天根據我們預算法跟財政紀律法我們做任何法律的調整必須找到裁員 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
28168.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
28189.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
請問一下這些未來認為沒什麼2800億 3000億這個撥補啊政府就用納稅人家撥補啊財源在哪裡彷彿我們立法委員就把全民未來的稅金就可以任意揮霍我們可以去決定明年的預算收入要怎麼支應那是我們今年的審議我們不能決定後年 大後年 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
28192.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
28220.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我們現在超越了特別預算的一個限制要去決定未來20年我們要多撥補幾千億這是違反財政紀律法違反預算法的行為再來提到這個現職人員跟退休人員跟現職人員一併調薪這更可笑啊現職人員 很多退休人員多政府應該把這些有限的預算資源花在現職人員提高他們的薪資改善他們的待遇而不是花在退職人員 退休人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
28221.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
28245.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
退休人員週休七天領七成週休七天領七成就是現在國民黨反年金改革後退休人員的寫照現職人員請何以堪所以我是要強調或許第67條的部分誤條的部分可以討論所以我們覺得認真持平來看這是國民黨所提的版本反年金改的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
28245.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
28265.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
他不管是停止調降所得替代率或者要求限職退休人員比照限職人員來調薪這是完全違逆不只違逆了整個世界合理的潮流也違反了財政紀律法違反了預算法違反了立法委員為人民看守荷包的權責那如果說要認真來討論67條的誤條我覺得倒是可以持平來討論因為原來就有這樣的機制如果覺得不夠好我們可以來調整所以我再次的也呼籲主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
28274.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
28295.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
現在我們接下來還有一個條文那裡面我看也是有民進黨登記發言那顯然的主席的意圖就是將今天的議程能夠呢送出委員會然後呢我們全民包括我們全民在未來的30年40年就持續要為今天這個違反財政紀律法違反預算法的修法來付出代價以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
28299.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
28318.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言我稍微補充因為在德國法上面的話他們退休公務人員的退休金是隨著限職公務人員做調整的所以這邊的話沒有我剛剛是我是補充一下謝謝那接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
28319.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
28348.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
不要惱羞成怒 人家德國法學專家在電你就開始惱羞成怒了中委員 我想請您不要那麼激動 請您不要激動主席有主席的發言權 你也尊重他你也尊重他你也尊重他好 那麼好 中委員好啦 我們接下來就請林倩琴委員發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
28350.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
28376.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
謝謝主席我們翁朝偉還有福原同仁大家好針對這一條本席在這邊再一次強調整個年金改革不是要讓長年奉獻國家的公務人員越活越窮現行的每年遞減1.5%的所得替代率的制度已經不是改革而是漸漸削弱退休族群的基本生活的一個保障產生一個制度性的錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
28377.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
28403.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那我這邊幾點的這個建議跟討論第一個是第一個部分是制度的公平那我早上這樣聽下來許多人都談說馬英九總統開始這樣一個年金改革那我覺得這是很負責任的一個作為因為年金產生問題其實在政府的運作上是很值得檢討的所以他起了這樣一個年金改革的頭但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
28404.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
28432.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
整個的政策的一個作為其實需要技術性的一個推動所以後來因為通過的法案是段奕康委員的法案聽起來就早上我們政委員這邊有提出當時的一個補充也就是在馬英九總統當時要推動的時候是一種微調 穩定的推動但是在段奕康委員這個通過的版本聽起來是一種大調產生了一些社會動盪 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
28433.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
28453.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那所以呢就有這樣子的一個討論那其實基本上我們現在要做的是一個現值跟退休之間的一個待間公平而不是讓任勞任怨已經為國服務那麼久然後期待最後的這個退休金穩定的這樣一個公務人員被持續性的懲罰而且他們現在也沒有任何的力量來 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
28455.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
28480.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
這個回應所以根據教育產業工會的一個統計一個任職25年然後在民國85年退休教授如果不停止削減那到92歲的時候所得替代率可能會被砍掉剩下36%那麼這其實在大家最需要錢的時候卻整個錢是被腰斬的所以我們其實今天要討論的是制度如何持續性的被運作好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
28481.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
28493.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
不管你是恩己制基金制或薪制很重要一點是一個社會契約其實公教人員在這個部分談到的還是一種社會信任跟所謂人性的尊嚴這個社會契約卻這麼粗暴的被 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
28497.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
28516.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
被使用或者是政府運用這個權力就這麼粗暴的做一些調整跟改變這對於當時一起來簽訂契約的公務人員其實是已經政府違背了社會正義的一個初衷那我這邊我先呼應一下我也希望如果待會行政大會有機會回應應該回應一下審發會委員剛才所提的一個問題我一直沒有聽到那個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
28521.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
28548.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
他刚才其实有提出说到底113年停砍前后所影响的人是多少然后费用是多少那我感觉到行政单位其实你们可以看看委员的提案然后针对委员这个提案的这个部分给一些相关的数据而不是你们所想的要改革的你们要用的这个技术就一直针对这个技术去提出很多的缩帖可是刚才我听了半天省委员的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
28549.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
28575.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
很好的一個解決的方式其實今天也沒有被討論我還沒有聽到答案所以我這邊必須呼應一下最後我來提醒一下你們你們一直談到這個缺口但事實上你們在討論的過程當中我們所整理出來的教育部跟權序部之前在對於10年撥補的方案其實有對行政院做這樣一個建議但是行政院這邊要分20年來撥補所以又產生了你們這些所謂的基金的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
28577.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
28582.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
他是責任的歸屬啦所以究竟是政府在這個基金的缺口因為行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
28583.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
28589.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
要分20年來補齊那你們其實認為10年來補齊的話基金的包括利息包括缺口是不是有機會在這個橫貧的狀態下少一點負面的衝擊那我覺得這是政府的責任可是現在聽起來你們都一直在講這個公務人員在提撥的這個責任上好像沒有一定的充足的比例我覺得這個部分可能要分清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
28607.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
28637.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
我來先就跟你們提醒一下就針對這個法條時間我也就控制在可以的情況內但是如果你們有機會回應的話我覺得沈委員的今天真的要討論的議題也請你們針對我們提出的法條法案裡面的一些相關的內容也給我們一些答案的回應這樣我們也才知道你們不是一直在說我們好像都算不清楚但是我們會有這樣一個提案也應該有我們所算的一個基礎好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
28637.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
28641.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
主席 各位同仁剛才在前一條37條討論的時候那時候我們的市部長講說這個提前四年我們今天這樣子停止調降這個所得利害率之後提前四年 基金佣金 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
28663.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
28681.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那必須要負擔 再負擔4,460億對不對 這個數字嘛 對這個不是說 4,000...不是王國威委員可能理解成說這4,000多億丟進去就沒事了 OK了你看 差4,000多億 差什麼啊這個對政府來講 4,000多億小小一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
28683.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
28691.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
不是 他不是說丟4000多億之後我們的退伏基金就太貧了就沒事了 不是丟這4000多億以後只是回到原來我們預計用盡的4年而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
28693.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
28715.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
他還是用慶啊 他還是用完 用慶也就是說我們今天修了這個法我這樣講應該沒有錯吧 市部長 對不對就是說我們提早這四年的話我們必須要用四千多億的納稅人的錢來補這四年讓他回復到原本我們年金改革所預定用慶的年度就是138年 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
28718.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
28742.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
對不對 138年 民國138年用盡 那現在我們今天修法之後 它134年就用盡了所以這134年到138年中間要4千多億4千多億之後 如果只丟這4千多億 138年還是沒啦對不對 所以我們要維持 真正要維持這些現在公教人員他們的這個基金的運作政府還投入更多更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
28744.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
28760.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
讓他到時候 到用慶之前政府不能把雙手一攤說啊 不好意思喔 沒了你們這些人退休都不要領了 不可能政府還投入更多 這是納稅人的錢這些錢是什麼呢是那時候納稅的人24年後納稅的人也就是現在少子化之後少的年輕人這些人 那時候要納稅來付付我們現在今天修法下去的這4000多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
28775.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
28783.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
這個在世代正義上面這個就有其實我們今天的修法就是對年輕人的剝削我必須這麼講對我們下一代的人的剝削所以不是說是四千多一補了就沒事了好像說這才提早四年用慶這個四年沒什麼差吧各位這不是鄧小平說的五十年不變 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
28798.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
28818.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
這才24年後的事24年裡面提早4年你說嚴重不嚴重五分之一 六分之一說短了五分之一 六分之一的壽命你說嚴不嚴重所以所有這些論述我只是要講說我們今天大家在這邊修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
28820.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
28845.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
沒有人希望 希望說大家都希望說我們的選民不管他是什麼樣的身份能夠從國家領越多越好但是這個制度是你領的太多你就會造成下一代的人的負擔你領的太多你就會造成現在在當退休的人領太多就會造成現在在當這個公務人員的人他的他現職跟退休之間的差距過小 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
28848.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
28870.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
這個都會造成也會打擊現在現職公務人員的士氣這都有很多的問題要討論再來就是剛剛林憲齊委員在講的這部分可能請市部長等一下說明得清楚一點就是就是這個停止調薑之後例如說我們一旦退補基金用盡歸零的時候那這個現在幾歲的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
28875.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
28892.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
現在幾歲的人他受到什麼樣的影響現在幾歲的人受到什麼樣的影響這個東西要講清楚這個是我們今天修法我們就必須讓這些人到時候不要再說我不曉得你們修了之後會影響我我以後可以這個部分把它講清楚好不好好 那麼請事務長也是三分鐘回應 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
28899.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
28926.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
這個影響我們現在有到原來是一百三十八那我們先講新制不理他新制那是另外一個議題現在是如果提早就四年變成一百三十四一百三十四的意思是什麼因為根據內政部的一個推估六十五歲的人大概平均移民年大概還有二十年所以意思是說如果以現在來講二十年後他就會出問題以我自己今年剛好要進入六十五 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
28927.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
28931.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
也就是說如果你是在一百三十四年挺的時候我就剛剛好到那一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
28934.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
28956.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
就是沒有影響我沒有影響但是我後面還有遺族因為我們後面還有遺族有影響那我意思是說65歲以下的人就會受到影響我用這個數字簡單這樣講所以如果你再往再提更早那當然那個年齡層就會往下降所以我要跟委員報告這個事情至於這些年齡層可能包括已退的人也可能包括限職還沒有退的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
28957.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
28977.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
那人數有多少這個真的我們目前必須要如果要估要去估所以我是告訴你那個年齡大概就抓在那個地方那委員剛剛提到純粹是在講是說新制14以後撥補那個根據現在要提前停止那個是另外一回事簡單講因為新制14我們估算也會往前 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
28978.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
28994.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
這個提早四年所以根據法律政府一定要撥補這個事情所以差別就在講是說我們都是用十年來跟行政院講說可不可以分十年來撥補那行政院最後採決是用二十年來撥補那個差距在這裡那行政院因為他會總 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
28996.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
29010.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
統合考慮整個財政的一些議題來做撥補那我跟委員報告因為這法律規定他一定得要撥補他可能會按照精算慢慢反正這個不會馬上虛就是說當然從基金來講你一次給我錢是最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
29011.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
29036.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
可是呢 理財的方式我想行政院一定有一些理財的方式我跟委員報告公保88年開始虧損以前所有救治的一個債務政府就開始撥補可是撥到現在為止就把它全部解決掉了我一直在報告說這個只要法律規定說政府要算得出來撥補他一定會用這個方式差別只是說一次到位還是說分年來撥補但是這是兩個不同撥補的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
29041.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
29059.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
好 謝謝施部長那麼現登記主條討論發言的委員都已經發言完畢了我們就討論結束那針對第38條及增訂副表三之一包含修正動議一修正動議二就一併保留好 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
29060.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
29075.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
沒有意義好就是一併保留好的那接下來我們就進行第67條的討論有委員賴氏寶等19人提案委員徐欣盈等20人提案委員林思明等26人提案委員徐宇鎮等20人提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
29075.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
29102.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
黃建豪等18人提案委員傅坤祺等21人提案委員王宏威等25人提案委員萬美玲等16人提案委員林倩琦等21人提案委員翁曉琳等16人提案委員黃國昌張祺凱等5人所提修正動議好 那麼我們就現在進行討論那首先先請鍾嘉賓委員那個我先跟你們換一下我先處理的事情 對我先換個好 那就先請吳思堯委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
29105.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
29134.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
好 没有问题67条在讨论的是定期退付的给予还有给予给付的金额调整的机制就是CPI几趴然后几年要调一次那现行的规定我要强调在我们2017 2018年改的时候就已经非常周延的设想完毕就是退休金的这个给付金额的调整就是CPI的上下5% |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
29137.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
29159.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
每四年調整一次所以當你CPI如果有超過上下5%那就調一次如果沒有超過你每四年還是要檢討一次它是一個雙重的設置已經是非常充分的希望能夠讓退休金能夠跟得上物價的波動所以原始的設計已經非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
29159.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
29185.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
那現在呢大概有10種11種樣態是在野黨委員提出來的版本有要以CPI從5%降為2%就要調整的也有3%的也有4%的是第一個第二個調整的年限有兩年有三年有四年的都有所以說還有包括徐欣穎委員的版本又比較特別他不是用CPI上下幾%的調整他是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
29186.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
29207.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
高齡家庭物價指數這又是另外一個指數是可能要問一下主計這個是什麼東西所以我要強調我也希望能夠論述這個條文實在沒有必要再更動了因為現在的條文在這幾年已經調了兩次6%調升退休金的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
29211.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
29222.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
這個%的調已經調了6%已經往上UP6%了那如果硬要改你真的就回到我剛剛講的邏輯他某種程度在懲罰現職工作人員因為你除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
29226.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
29247.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
这个要调然后你们刚刚37条38条又加了一个要跟现役人员的调薪也要跟着调以这几年民进党执政调了4次现役工作人员的调薪调了4次14%的调服马英九当时8年也只调了一次3% |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
29248.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
29262.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
所以我们现在的执政的政府是非常乐意来保障限职工作人员提升他们的待遇所以已经调了4次14%所以如果刚刚通过你们37 38条要跟限职人员的调薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
29263.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
29290.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
限職人員調幾%他就要調幾%然後又有現在的67條第二個CPI幾%你們要縮短那個又要再調就是調調調 調再調所以退休調的永遠比限職的公務人員多這不只是勞役不均啊這就是你不上工卻同仇或者是不上工更酬勞的條幅高於限職人員這就是對於限職工作公務人員的不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
29290.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
29311.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
所以這一個條文我是覺得大家當然如果後續在協商的時候民進黨團我們是反對這個條文去動但是我認為這唯一是可以大家可以理性調整如果說覺得5%可以調一下我們4% 3%可以來討論那沒有問題真的就要理性務實科學可以來討論可是大家不要只看這一個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
29313.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
29335.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
因為它跟37、38條的綁定跟限職人員同樣調它是要一起思考的如果37、38條被你們通過了限職人員調心他要調一次那麼我認為67條要動它我就不叫保留了所以這是我統一的論述最後這可能是我今天司法法治委員會從早到現在可能最後一次有發言的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
29336.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
29351.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
我真的覺得民主就是要討論而來的民主就是要充分討論而來的沒有討論不是民主我再一次對於這麼重要的改革要喊卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
29352.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
29357.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
重要的改革是人民均享這個正向的成果卻要輕易的修法來走回頭路這件事情我們沒有辦法踐行民主討論的程序充分的發言我真的覺得無比遺憾這是我們為司法法事委員會立下惡習的開始而這個惡習的開始就是翁小玲 昭緯你定下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
29376.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
29401.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
可以了謝謝那個今天我聽到謝謝請要改喔請要改喔這個二席定下真的不好喔變成歷史的罪人喔變成歷史的罪人喔真的不好喔好嗎請你結束那麼如果說您對於我當召委這麼不滿的話我建議您可以下個會期選思委會的召委那接下來請陳美語委員帶下去都沒有意思了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
29403.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
29426.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
我也很想跟主席報告以前我們在教文的時候因為是涉到非常多學生的權益老師的權益我們都希望每一個條文真的要好好的討論而且我想當時在教文有個非常特殊的氛圍跟司法法是也很不同不管是在野黨的委員執政黨的委員大家都非常關心教育這件事情所以在委員會裡面我們從來不會去設限 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
29428.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
29455.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
要登記然後還限制時間所以我必須要說這真的才是惡習的開始好 回過來這個條文我們要再次強調剛剛CIA委員已經說了隨著CPI調整現在已經入法了所以如果根據在內黨委員提案的版本就變成要重複兩份的調整隨著CPI要調隨著限職人員也要調而這樣的調法真的會讓在職人員覺得是公平的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
29456.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
29478.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
另外如果我們來試算因為我們再次強調所有跟錢有關的我們都必須要認真的試算目前我們來看這幾年CPI的增幅都遠遠超過過往幾年也就是說相關數字對於退休人員來說是漂亮的如果估算到118年的時候還可能累計在調5% |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
29480.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
29495.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
可是我們看到很可惜的是當正負5%的這個寫法要被在野黨委員改成只有往上的時候才可以調往下的時候不能做調整也就是怎麼樣他都要加好加滿沒有其他的空間這真的非常的荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
29496.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
29512.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
而如果來看到了119年以後退休所得替代率不會再調降實質的月退休所得就只會調高我要再一次強調119年以後退休所得替代率不會再調降實質月退休所得就只會再調高 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
29514.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
29532.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
我要再次強調最後我們來看118年所得替代率的上限是60%而這60%是多少錢呢大概就相當於各個職等最高縫及限職工作者的月薪的71%就是剛剛嘉賓委員所說的月休7天領7成 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
29533.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
29545.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
如果如同在野黨委員提案的版本變成到115年停止調降替代率是66%可是實際上我要再次強調他們會領到的是78%66跟78差了12%在接下來如果提早到112年替代率是69%可是實際上他們會領到81.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
29555.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
29569.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
而這樣子的退休所得替代率都比OECD國家社會保險替代率平均略超過50%為高剛剛主席想要強調您是德國法的專家我想不只是法律的層次問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
29570.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
29596.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
到底整個國民對於所謂月退休所得這件事情還有相關替代率我們必須要看清楚不能只有看到所得替代率百分之幾的數字我要再次強調當它透過公式計算之後原本我們看到的百分之六十它其實拿到的錢會是百分之七十一這個是非常重要的數字所以我要想我要再次強調我們坐在這裡討論是有意義是有價值的 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
29597.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
29615.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
不然到今天等一下一定就會急著送出委員會然後接下來協商也可以想像就是一個過水式的協商最後到院會三讀表決的時候我們除了可能會再收到surprise彩蛋版我們更不知道要怎麼對全國納稅人民交代以上 謝謝好 謝謝 接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
29620.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
29643.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
好 謝謝 因為主席已經限制登記發言截止了那接下來主席也沒辦法為自己的版本來進行辯護那就很遺憾 自己做的 自己找的我們現在看到這個條件來看這裡面有賴世保委員 傅坤祺委員 徐欽英委員 王宏威委員 萬美玲委員 林思明委員還有黃介豪委員跟翁曉琳委員 這麼多的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
29644.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
29663.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
獨獨我們翁委員的表案本最獨樹一致其他委員版本都有提到物價指數都有提到或者正負百分之二百分之五或者要三年或者兩年就來檢討一次賴思寶委員還特別規定正百分之二或者是負百分之五的時候正百分之三或負百分之五的時候就來調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
29665.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
29684.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
條文都講啦你有正有負 物價有漲有跌那物價漲的時候要調高啊那跌的時候要不要調低呢有的我們這些委員的版本呢都想得很清楚如果是調了之後超過原來的5%或者調了之後會比原來的低要立法院同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
29685.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
29706.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
這什麼意思 就剛剛陳培文講的只能調高不能調低調高超過5%要立法院同意 立法院會不同意嗎調低的還要立法院同意 立法院敢同意嗎那獨獨我們主席他就一個 他乾脆不用這麼假了何必在那邊調高可以調低不可以他就直接寫什麼時候要誤調 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
29707.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
29725.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
累計查正3%的時候才調整而且4年調一次如果成長率為0或負數的時候就不調整這才是坦蕩蕩的真小人嘛就是說只能調高不能調低嘛所以這種情況之下這些版本我們很好奇待會國民黨要支持哪個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
29726.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
29745.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
資準調高不能調低那如果資準調高不能調低就用翁小林版本最好啊就給你明明白白寫嘛只有物價往上的時候我才調物價跌的時候我根本不調那難道這就是我們所說的物調的機制嗎今天任何一個人都覺得退休人員他的退休生活要照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
29746.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
29773.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
那我們都假設物價會一直提高很難講那如果物價調低了呢那調低了要跟著調低呢所以我是覺得一個法的一個定定啊是正反兩面都要去思考不要說一味的討好現在這些退休的公教人員我相信都是提案委員本身他們很重要的選民基礎但是要奉勸我們國民黨的委員你們的選民基礎 社會基礎不是只有四五十萬的公教人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
29775.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
29804.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
而且這些要來撥補剛剛要講的撥補的這些錢都是全民的納稅錢難道其他的2300萬人不是我們的選民不是我們的社會的基礎嗎所以我覺得看到67條我剛剛有講了67條要談物條可以物價指數還是高齡化程度包括行政委員的都可以討論但是這種只准調高不准調低啊就讓人家看破手腳這種討好式的立法終究會受到歷史的譴責 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
29809.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
29811.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
主席請不要評論委員的發言主席請不要評論委員的發言主席請不要評論委員的發言主席請不要評論委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
29825.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
29838.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
那主席你就登記發言嘛好不好你有意見就登記發言嘛你都可以無限制發言然後限縮我們的發言你不讓我們發言自己在那邊一直講好那接下來我們可以請又消音了你今天給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
29847.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
29858.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
我希望能夠尊重主席主持會議的權利那麼我們私委會跟別的委員會最重要的不同就是我們很重視秩序接下來我們請王紅薇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
29861.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
29883.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
謝謝主席因為這個條文我也有提案我覺得在很多提案裡面在過去我想有些委員都比我資深大家有不同的版本大家相互尊重你用作一個對單一提案而且做人身攻擊我覺得這個是很不道德也有失一個資深委員的格調 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
29885.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
29896.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
我的提案我説明一下剛才我們主席有講到你是比照國民年金以及老農年金我在這邊我是比照勞保條例勞保條例第65條第4 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
29900.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
29903.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
它就是講到正負50%及1該成長率調整值我們都可以可能比照也許我們現在可能很多版本也許應該去做一些整合做以上說明至於我覺得真理越辯越明 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
29920.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
29923.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那剛才非常高興的包含那個審發會委員也再次的去跟我們全序部確定也就是說我們修法跟不修法之間的差異到底是什麼到底是什麼按照這個我們全序部提供資料跟說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
29938.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
29941.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
如果我們不修法 我們不修法我們的破產是到公務人員是138年修法就提早4年到134年所以這中間差別是什麼呢今天我們講老半天 我們民進黨的委員講這個會讓我們現役的公務人員領不到這個差別是如果不修法 我們今天不修法的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
29968.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
29989.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
是24年後領不到如果修法的是20年後領不到但是事實上剛才部長也講得非常清楚我們的退府基金負最後的財務責任的就是政府所以你們必須要去做提撥它跟這個勞保不一樣所以本席事實上我現在在推動的就是勞保也要把它的提撥法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
29993.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
29996.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
讓我們的廣大的勞工也可以得到相關一樣的一個保障這裡面特別講我剛才說其實我們提早4年少挹注退伏基金2800億當然因為你們經過因為你們不是立即去撥補它所以說要分20年撥補4460億 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
30019.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
30024.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
真的真理越辨越明我們今天我剛才講我不是說不能討論而是我這一整天看到我們民進黨的委員是講到說好像天塌下來了政府要破產這中間差別是20年撥撥4460億所以每一年的差別是多少呢223億 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
30042.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
30045.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
每一年223億而這4460億如果會造成整個政府破產整個財政那個整個倒塌潰敗的話那我要告訴大家我們現在台電的虧損已經達到4500億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
30060.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
30063.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
跟這個金額還要更多他不是分20年喔他就是這幾年呢就達到4500億的虧損喔所以當你今天把這個修法形容成好像要讓政府整個倒台了整個破產了這個絕對是言過其實在我是引述程序部講法20年撥補4460億平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
30087.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
30097.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
明年223億元這就是我們今天所討論最後真理越辯越明好 謝謝王委員接下來請省發會委員發言在我講我的問題之前我還再一次跟王委員說明你講說勞保怎麼要博普勞保對應的是公保 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
30113.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
30135.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
老保對應是公保 是保險的撥補跟我們這個職業年金你們一直混在一起從今天一整天開會一直混在一起說老保撥補我們同樣公保政府也在撥補這個是職業年金 這跟老保是不一樣的這個核心序名這個我一定要在這裡要先講清楚那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
30137.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
30159.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
這個我們大法官這個在4至第782號那時候解釋的時候他有其實有做一個說明對我們今天說這個修法的一個爭議有一個很畫龍點睛的說明他說這個退休金他這個退休的給予這包括月退休金優存的利息這個他都 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
30161.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
30183.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
他都不是這個工資跟工資給付都是不一樣的所以他的調整機制不應該按照現職人員來調整這個是大法官會議解釋講得非常清楚他說為什麼呢因為退休者基本上退休者他已經沒有工作的事實所以他這個調整他的調整是為什麼要調整是因為要維持他實質生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
30185.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
30211.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
實質的生活才做調整這個是我們來調整這個退休給付的原因那至於現職人員調整薪水那有很多很多更多的複雜原因現職人員調整薪水他可能是因為啊這個這個民間薪資的調整啦或者是這個政府財政的因素考量啦或者是這個這個為了特殊情況要獎勵工作的表現等等有各種不一樣的理由但這些理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
30213.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
30222.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
他因為這些不同的理由調整那你因此來調整退休的給付在法理上大法官認為這是違憲的可是不行所以那時候設計才會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
30224.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
30253.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
用這個依照CPI來做調整這個是如果我們按照CPI來調整那就沒有違憲的問題所以我們當初設計的制度就按照CPI來做這個退休給付的調整那至於這個退休給付按照CPI要做多少幅度的調整這個我覺得我事實上也覺得是可以討論如果大家覺得說現在這樣子的調整的這個檢討的時間太久或者說調整的幅度太小那我們也可以來做調整但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
30255.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
30263.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
他不可以跟限職人員的這個薪資來做到我覺得這個是最基本的 我需要強調的 以上好 那群事部還要再發言嗎那就請施事部長就最後的發言我想37條跟這一條重複講了一個是誰限職 一個是誰在這兩個絕對不可以同時進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
30280.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
30303.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
因為通常那個退休人員的條幅就會非常非常高那至於說我們的看法還是不應該隨限職人員調整因為真的限職人員調整的因素太多了並且我們應應民間的一個競爭力所以比較好的方式還是應該隨著CPI那CPI的方式現在為什麼用5%當初設計因為台灣其他的社會保險制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
30304.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
30317.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
也都是採取正負5%所以如果你要去調整這個大家討論的時候真的也要想想其他的那個社會保險制度一併的一個考量那這個是我們尊重這個大院的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
30321.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
30345.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
好謝謝那麼登記逐條討論發言的委員以及機關代表都已經發言完畢討論結束那麼針對第67條包含修正動議二我們就一併保留那麼本案逐條均已經處理完畢現在做以下宣告第一本案審查完據拟據審查報告提請院會公決 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
30347.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
30366.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那麼本案必須交由黨團協商那院會討論的時候就由翁小玲召集委員出席說明那條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語就授權主席以及議事人員整理然後現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
30369.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
30378.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
那麼現在有林倩琦委員等人提出附議的動議那我們就請議事人員宣讀提案內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
30385.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
30412.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
案有針對第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第六次全體委員會議討論事項所作之各項決議提出覆議並請立即處理是否有當進行公決提案委員 尹倩琦 傅君綺羅志強 王宏威 胡宗憲 宣讀完畢好 請問在場委員有沒有異議主席 請議事人員我們前面剛剛那個宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
30414.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
30434.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
複譯必須是前次表決提醒再複譯我們剛剛有表決嗎你們提這個複譯幹嘛剛剛是主席宣告耶你針對主席宣告做什麼複譯啊請藝術人員說明一下好不好你針對主席要宣什麼複譯如果主席宣告有異議那就要表決有表決你可以再複譯你主席宣告都沒有表決你要再複譯什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
30447.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
30476.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
真的不用這麼難看啦因為這個復議的動議是針對決議案那我們請主席來說一下相關的法律依據真的搞得這麼難看然後又完全搞錯你對於主席的宣告要復議奉主席指示喔你看他說了奉主席指示不要為難議事人員了不要為難議事人員了沒有人這樣搞的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
30480.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
30496.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
副總召你從頭到尾討論都沒有出現你就是表決時候才會出現跟黃國昌總召一樣只有表決才會出現請吳委員尊重我們今天最後的這個程序喔那麼我們現在請竹密來講一下這個相關的法律依據請 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
30498.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
30520.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
立法院議事規則第42條有規定就是決議案附議提出應具備各款的資格議事規則42條那這是剛才每一個都是決議都有做決議主席宣告不是決議主席宣告如果有異議我們透過表決就有決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
30522.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
30538.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
好 那麼既然有異議的話 我們就進行表決針對復議案 我們就採用我們不是針對復議案 我們是針對今天一整天討論的內容主席我們不是針對復議案我們就先請清點在場出席委員人數真的搞得這麼難看 意識規則也亂玩 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
30541.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
30569.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
好 我們現在有8位出席委員人數那麼在場出席委員有8人 然後現在我們就開始進行表決贊成對 我們剛剛有我剛剛已經講了對 復議案是採用舉手表決那剛剛已經清點了在場人數總共有8位那現在贊成者請舉手贊成復議案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
30573.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
30593.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
請舉手好那0人那麼反對這個議程完全亂搞我們不同意這樣子的表決反對不贏的請舉手好6人好請放下那舉手表決的結果是在場出席委員發言黃國昌今天來兩次吳思瑤又被消音吳思瑤又被消音了 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
30606.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
30613.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
黃國昌對不起過去的自己不要罵柯建民啦柯建民從頭到尾立場一致我們就是反對你們的年改反他的方案國民黨民眾黨都有到柯建民沒到 |