| IVOD_ID |
17004 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17004 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-05T08:32:27+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-05T15:17:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
06:44:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68516bff821a9cb407d5ce64bc183f2abf383051bafb051454befb194bc8e1d9de55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）
邀請環境部部長、經濟部、內政部、農業部、交通部、行政院公共工程委員會就「非法棄置到城市採礦：檢討環境部環境管理署執法痛點與城市採礦推動策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）
一、繼續審查
(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(七)委員牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。
(八)委員羅明才等20人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
(一)委員林倩綺等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二條、第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
【二、(二)及(三)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:27 - 15:17:00 |
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報告委員會 出席委員人數13人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年10月29日星期三9時1分至17時30分10月30日星期四9時至16時14分 地點群賢樓801會議室 |
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1861.627 |
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1890.125 |
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出席委員陳委員招資等15人列席委員謝委員龍介等14人列席官員10月29日專題報告環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員10月30日專題報告衛生福利部部長石崇良等相關人員10月29日及30日審查職業安全衛生法10月29日勞動部部長洪聲翰等相關人員10月30日勞動部政務次長李建宏等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國 |
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1891.105 |
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1909.281 |
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10月29日上午專題報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長衛生福利部農業部經濟部教育部國防部就防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散強化全國處於去化問題以及後續防疫清消等作為提出專題報告並被質詢 |
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1911.38 |
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1928.009 |
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本日會議由環境部部長彭啟明及農業部部長陳俊記報告後委員陳昭芝等18人提出質詢均經環境部部長及農業部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆委員吳佩儀 劉許廷 盧憲一及何新淳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報 |
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1929.049 |
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1955.005 |
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決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員及詢問及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定十月三十日上午專題報告邀請衛生福利部部長農業部財政部交通部經濟部數位發展部海洋委員會海洋署就如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵持續強化阻絕疫情於國門 |
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1955.885 |
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1970.519 |
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同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫提出專題報告並被質詢本日會議由衛生福利部部長報告後委員盧憲義等14人提出質詢軍警衛生福利部部長財政部關務署副署長蘇淑珍 |
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1971.279 |
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1990.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
農業部動植物防疫檢疫署署長杜麗華中華郵政股份有限公司郵務處處長柯清長經濟部商業發展署副組長簡俊良及數位發展部數位產業署組長林青親幾個相關主管等及其答覆委員蘇清泉所提出面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1991.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2017.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定10月29日下午及30日下午討論事項繼續審查行政院行情審議黨團委員分別擬據職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案及21案以及審查委員分別擬據職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案及10案 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2017.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2032.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
本次會議討論事項 經委員王振旭林月琴及林淑芬說明提案 指去114年10月15日第11屆第4會期本會第4次全體委員會議由委員提出修正動議一案本次會議由委員提出修正動議12案 以上共13案 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2034.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2062.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
決議一行政院含情審議職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等31案審查完略內容如審查結果並按你去審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由劉兆吉委員建國補充說明不需交黨團協商二本法案如有援引條次法制用於調整授權議事人員調整相關立法說明授權行政單位提供審查結果照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2062.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2065.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
第9條第22條第2章之1章名第22條之1第22條之3第23條第24條第27條之1第32條第39條第40條第44條第46條第48條第49條第51條第51條之1條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2079.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2108.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第二条 照委员林月琴等21人提案修正通过第六条 照台湾民众党党团提案及委员刘建国等三人所提修正动议修正通过第15条之一修正通过第22条之二 照委员刘建国等三人及委员王玉敏等四人所提修正动议通过第26条 照委员王振旭等23人提案通过第27条 照委员王振旭等23人提案通过第41条 照委员王玉敏 陈金辉 陈昭志等三人所提修正动议通过 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2108.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2117.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第43条修正通过第45条照委员王振旭等23人提案委员刘建国等3人及委员王玉敏等4人所提修正动议修正通过 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2119.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2142.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
維持現行條文第一條第四條第三十四條第三十五條第三十七條第五十條第五十二條及第五十五條不予採納委員李昆澤等二十七人及委員黃秀芳等二十一人提案第二十二條之一台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條之三委員范雲等十八人及委員黃婕等十六人提案第二十二條之四委員范雲等十八人提案第二十二條之六第二十二條之七 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2143.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2158.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第二十二條之八第二章之一增列立法說明第六點第二十二條之一修正立法說明第三點通過附帶決議十九項宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2160.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2181.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好議事錄確定本日會議議程為邀請環境部長經濟部內政部農業部交通部行政院公共工程委員會就非法氣質到城市採礦檢討環境部環境管理署執法痛點與城市採礦推動策略進行專題報告並備質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2185.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2211.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
專題報告詢答結束後繼續審查噪音管制法第2條第26條及28條條文修正草案共計9案及審查噪音管制法第2條26條及28條條文修正草案計3案那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭之委員林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2213.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2240.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
王振旭委員環境部部長彭啟明部長環管署署長顏旭明署長資源循環署署長賴盈盈經濟部主任秘書莊明池產業發展署副署長周宇新 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2242.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2266.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
產業技術司科長陳俊偉產業園區管理局副組長陳建堂能源署代理組長夏育權地質調查及礦業管理中心專門委員李政鴻內政部國土管理署總工程司游元順 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2270.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2293.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
營建管理組科長曾勝峰農業部次長黃昭清農村發展及水土保持署副署長蘇茂祥資源永續利用司檢任記證林永延畜牧師科長鄭嘉鴻農糧署組長洪毅 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2301.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2324.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
農業署組長陳文生農田水利署組長朱志斌林業及自然保育署組長范嘉祥交通部陸政及道安司副司長廖振源行政司副司長盧清泉 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2326.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2353.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
行政院公共工程委員會技術處副處長徐肇熙接下來請環境部彭部長報告時間5分鐘謝謝報告主席因為這個量比較大我可不可以到8分鐘左右沒問題好謝謝主席各位委員還有在座的各部會的同仁還有媒體的同仁由我來報告從城市採礦我的簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2356.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2366.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我的簡報趕快處理從非法棄置到城市採礦那首先跟各位報告因為我昨天晚上也看到一個好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2370.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2388.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝其實我昨天晚上看到的一個影片就是彰化有一個民眾開了一部車子車子裡面全部是垃圾往這個溪裡面直接丟那我一開始嚇了一跳因為是我網友tag給我但是後來我也看到其實是媒體有報導後來被罰了五萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2390.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2405.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以基本上這種所謂的非法氣質在台灣就跟我們一樣不小心把這個菸蒂亂丟一樣對我們來說都是破壞環境所以我今天會有兩個一個角度來跟大家做說明非法氣質我們如何處理然後未來如何精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2406.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2422.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第一個是跟各位報告我們如果非法棄置第一個一定要來查破這個案件所以基本上如何去查獲來嚇阻是最重要的如果查獲之後一定要有一個登錄的系統然後要進入司法的程序例如說他如果是沒有清理完一定要叫刑務委員來負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2423.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2446.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那待會我會再說明說裡面的確是有一些漏洞第三個是如果說進到一個程序之後第三個月就要去巡查一次然後而且要提報這個清理的進度最後才會可以解除列管那以目前環境部所掌握到的我們從101年這10多年來列管的這個案件大概有1153件其中解除列管707件 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2447.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2470.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
還沒有解除裂管的是446件其中一般事業廢棄物是395個地方其中最大的地方就是屬於營建廢棄物大概占了36%左右各位可以看得到每個地方大概都有那其中最多的就是土地面積大當然就有可能會比較多或是說它的這個輸送的這個去化的管道可以很快 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2470.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2499.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
很方便所以各位可以看到大概就是以我們南投或是中南部為主桃園也有所以基本上每個地方都有存在這個類似的一個問題那當然也有一些有害廢棄物大概是佔了16處其中也包含了這個一般是廢的話也有廢塑膠還有廢液等等的這個案件有446件是正在列管當中那這裡面我們發現了有幾個問題首先在法規上面雖然我們有法規有廢清法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2500.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2520.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
但是現在呢這種犯罪者還是敢於停而走險就很像說我們覺得亂丟垃圾呃這個不可以的可是很多人就是當成習慣這樣往上丟但是現在的這個科技是可以去抓到的第二個呢是我們目前的法規無法及時扣押這種氣質的行為而且我們要這個行為人要負擔這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2521.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2550.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一個最後清除的動作所以導致現在大家會有覺得環境復原非常的緩慢這個是我們現在法規上面可以有缺陷的地方那實務上呢其實因為這個現在的環保犯罪日新月異等於是說過去是這種環保敗類現在是環保斯文敗類等於是說他隱藏在我們社會當中是非常斯文的一個人所以我們是一種組織型的專業分工也讓我們必須要精進所以我們有右邊的解方有三個第一個一定要跨域合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2551.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2568.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以現在這個檢警還調已經有一個平台我們不斷的透過資源共享能夠精準打擊第二個我們要裝非法的氣質的智慧的圍籬能夠掌握各種的車輛因為這個凡走過必留下痕跡第三個是要做修法廢清法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2568.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2590.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
的加重還有債權的保全的一個程序我們都會加重那我以這個營建物產出物為例各位知道我們現在營建物產出物非常的多像南部北部全部都有那其實這個就包含了營建工程或是拆除工程或是裝修工程這些產出如果是好的話他其實是可以城市採礦可以循環再利用的可是如果處理的不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2590.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2596.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
就變成廢棄物了那廢棄物其實我們過去都有土資廠 混合廠廢棄物處理廠但是隨著我們社會的進步過去這個廠都會變成零幣設施所以每個縣市如果不重視這個問題的話就會往別的縣市來倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2606.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2622.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以基本上有三個漏洞一個是變成是一個營建土石方跟廢棄物兩個混在一起第二個是沒有追蹤營建土石方沒有追蹤我們營建廢棄物是環境部管的有追蹤這個土石方過去是沒有追蹤第三個是我們最終去化的這個地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2623.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2638.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
不夠量不夠才會讓他們鋌而走險所以我們現在呢要怎麼去處理呢在今年的5月其實我們從去年本人上任之後也謝謝內政部還有跨部會的一起努力合作由行政院在今年有核定的這個土石方的這個計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2639.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2660.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有環境部跟內政部兩個都是跨部會來處理這個事情而且呢我們也跟地方政府有來合作所以有四個方向一個是拓增去化的量能第二個管理的強度顯著的增加第三個智慧維尼第四個推動修法的一個作業首先呢這個經濟措施呢全台灣呢其實土資的這個去化 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2661.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2677.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
過去的確是量能找不到不是很多但是現在我們經由公共工程委員會等等跨部會找出了四大的區段的徵收計畫還有這個填海造路還有掩埋型的這個土質廠都把它找出來我們把這個量整個最大的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2678.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2702.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
大概有15110萬方的量但是這個是目前我們預估的最大量其實還是需要陸續的在開發當中我們希望這個去化量可以夠才可以解決這個問題第二個是減緊環調的一個合作我們從112年8月到現在為止查扣了非常多 1000多人然後總共犯罪水德是41億然後機具行政法管3000多萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2705.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2722.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個是過去來說的話我們都比往年來高很多但我是希望可以更高起到嚇阻的作用這裡面的最重要的一個是我們會強化這個全國廢棄物遠端的合作計畫目前我們已經跟行政院爭取到從明年開始的這個未來有三年三四年期的一個計畫會導入AI |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2724.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2746.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
也就是說除了這個車牌辨識之外GPS我們會把它整合在一起用這個資訊化的設備來辦案那另外一個是加重非法刑責的清理我們過去法規是一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑而且是病科罰金1500萬以下的罰金我們未來會強化到一年以上七年以下這個金額的部分因為我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2748.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2771.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們的這個法務單位他們認為必須要有所對等所以基本上這個一千五是很難去調整的但是這個我們也尊重我們的這個法治單位的一個建議但是我們如果在農地或是我們公告的敏感環境敏感區會加重刑期到二分之一也就是說會超過兩千萬所以這個基本上我們是用這樣的方式來做處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2772.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2787.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那另外一個呢是最重要的是提前債權保全目前呢是為什麼很慢我們一定要找到行為人然後把他帶回球場來處理所以我們不可能這時候編預算來清理這些事情所以未來呢只要書面行政處面送達我們馬上就會進行假扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2788.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2810.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
在這個之前其實要申請這個行為人之前他們都會脫產現在呢我們會用這樣的方式這樣的手段會快速的來做處理而且如果說是這個銀線工地如果沒有好好處理的話他的處置的義務人都會負有連帶責任包含了負責人大股東都會有連帶責任我覺得這樣的一個重法才可以讓大家才可以警惕這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2811.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2827.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那另外一個呢是我這邊最後一個想這樣的小結等於是說這樣的一個工作呢其實不是只有本部做我們已經串聯了各個縣市市政府都處理一個平台那目前呢也跟各位報告我們是明年其實我們今年就在規劃這個事情也都拜訪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2829.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2848.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有些縣市已經開始在運作當中包含了這個土資的平台等等都有在運作有些縣市正在開始我們都希望各個縣市都可以清除它的一個流向特別是說去化量能不夠的地方各個縣市一定要自己努力來解決我們用科技監控加重行則還有檢警環調結盟能夠來解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2850.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2870.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那第二個部分跟各位報告城市採礦其實這個城市採礦是我們未來國家發展很重要的一環那本人其實我們其實過去就很注重這一塊包含在總統府的氣候變遷對策委員會本人也報告了我們整合臺灣關鍵與戰略資源的國家隊不是只有剛剛前面的這個所謂的營建的這個採礦 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2871.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2890.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我們包含了城市裡面各種的物質的這個採礦包含我們生活裡面的手機等等我們都應該來看所以這個的城市就比剛剛的營建土石方都要高很多所以這個裡面呢就包含了關鍵物料跟戰略物資等等我們過去這兩個都的確是仰賴進口那我們呢本部呢也跟這個經濟部一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2892.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2910.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
盤點的關鍵與戰略物資的流向包含了輸入包含有這個ABCDEF等等的產品的原料或是說產品等等我們使用販賣之後他變成廢棄物排出之後他如何處理目前的這個回收體系呢我們發現到以這個右邊這個H類5.57萬噸這個裡面的大多數包含了銅鋁 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2915.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2932.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
污 镍 锂等等大概都是输出的我们希望回到台湾进行一个更好的内循环所以这个就是我们希望关注的焦点把这个做好一个一个妥善的内循环的处理那我们现在怎么处理呢其实这个里面是产业来推动的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2932.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2957.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以我們很積極的跟產業來座談也去實際的訪查那這個的確台灣有很多的隱形冠軍都在做這個事情所以我們也舉辦一些論壇共同來把他們的需要的痛點需要政府過去沒有好好去輔導他們的我們有沒有什麼法規制度能夠來協助這些產業可以發展起來所以我們已經進行了這個產業的量能的盤點我們會跟經濟部一起合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2957.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2979.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那未來我們會聚焦四類的關鍵戰略金屬因為這個主要是有產業需求而且有供應鏈的一個風險而且我們國內已經有回收技術這個每個國家不大一樣那最近的全世界都在談論這個問題我們也都跟經濟部都有準備好第一個是單一金屬包含了銅鋁屋這個是我們的電子建築業的很重要的一個基礎材料 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2980.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3001.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
第二个是锡柜金属像金银薄把等等这个是半导体的晶片跟高阶电子零组件第三个是能源的金属包含的锂 钴 镍等等这个对我们的未来的电池的制造业是有影响第四个是稀土的元素包含了家电的这个冷气的马达等等这个里面就有很多的像这个是铝 铁 铁 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3003.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3017.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個都是一個所謂的稀土金屬我們都必須把它的量盤點出來這個供需之間能夠達到一個平衡是我們最主要的一個目的所以我們要怎麼做呢第一個要盤點目前的這個盤點還是持續在進行當中因為這每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3017.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3046.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
每一個金屬都有它每一個產業特殊的學問不是跟那個一般的很不一樣所以我們必須把這個產業跟我們政府一起來合作那我們政府如果法令或是各種制度可以修改的話就可以來做我們希望能夠來進行可回收再利用的廢棄物資源的種類做得更好那我們最希望的是促進因為現在這些東西大多數都是到國外去好的錢給別人賺走了我們希望資源留在國內循環使用但是我必須強調這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3048.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3069.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
都有嚴格的規定不能造成我們台灣本地的一個污染我們希望透過法規與經濟優因能夠留在國內第三個業者也提出了他包含的原料用地或技術升級都需要政府的幫忙所以我們現在正在評估是不是可以打造一個更好的一個產業的環境所以最後今天感謝主席安排這兩個主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3070.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3096.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以我們第一個要跨域合作其實這個不是環境部可以做的要很多部會一起來推動檢警環跨域的結盟我們最主要是城市採礦跟關鍵資源的循環利用我們要用科技執法來嚇阻這種所謂的環保斯文犯罪能夠讓他這個能夠想要犯罪的時候知道說他被抓到的機率是非常高的絕對不是只有司機或是駕駛或是等等而已下游而已我們要強化修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3096.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3122.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
目前這個法規也在行政院在審議當中目前院長也特別有指示所以未來我們希望未來這一兩個月內可以送到大院還希望各位委員可以給我們支持一起來實踐環境保護與志願永續最後我們認為今天這個題目其實實踐了破壞環境就是一種罪這是教宗 前教宗方濟各所說的本部會以這樣的一個信念來執行各種的這種執法或是各種的痛點我們希望能夠來改進 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3127.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3133.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好 謝謝彭部長的報告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3135.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3160.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
現在開始尋答做以下宣告本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭姿發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3166.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3167.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
謝謝主席麻煩彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3172.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3200.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
陳委員好部長早部長前天那個租賓的疫調出爐了記者會上中央政府認為破口不是在邊境是沒有落實徵阻但如果把他說他們繼續這樣說如果把破口歸於邊境那應該是全台灣要爆發就是說而不是單一案例場我不是非常認同這個說法部長我知道您沒有負責這個認定但我要強調出於徵阻只是防止那個感染的擴大而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3201.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3225.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
邊境仍然還是可能這個破口來源那記者會上的事證也可以證明這個感染源是境外病毒的株種它不會無端從台灣內部生出來難道除以本身就有病毒嗎所以我認為邊境的可能性最高我想知道你的想法其實有可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3226.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3241.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這個病毒一直從邊境進來不管是海運或是這個從機場但是因為守法大多數絕大多數的豬農也是守法所以他們把它徵阻掉了所以我想知道您對這件事破口點的這個看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3241.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3269.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
因為我雖然是應變中心可是他們在決定疫調的時候我都不能參加你的想法呢就我們環境部來督導這個廚餘的這個爭主來說的話的確有一些案場但是不是多 多數是好的有些的確是便宜形式像這個案場恰恰案場的確是便宜形式我的意思是說如果認為破口是來自這個廚餘那不表示廚餘裡面就有病毒嗎那台灣是非疫區啊台灣哪 又不是台灣的病毒株種 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3269.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3285.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以他一定是外來的啊他外來但是只是說透過一個徵主處理管理也許管理的相當的好所以就侷限在那個地方其他的地方沒有被處理到所以這個我覺得那個指揮中心這個說法是不是正確的他認為破口是在徵主 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3286.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3301.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
珍珠的確這次這個案例的確出了一些問題但是委員我不是這個疫調的專家啦這個要請這個疫調的專家來處理沒有你用common sense就可以啦沒有沒有基本上老包委員因為在台灣的廚藝裡還得了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3302.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3323.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
以我們來說如果說他這個珍珠一個小時90度就不會有這樣的問題我想你也不好意思講清楚部長上週六這個環管署林佐祥副署長提到中央協調所的專家會議他長期處於去化要以資源循環化為導向但這個會議紀錄我一直跟環境部索取可是一直都一直沒收到請問部長可以給我們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3324.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3338.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們每天都有回憶 這個是沒有問題的好 那這個資料我們一直都還沒有收到那就麻煩環境部這邊就盡快給辦公室 謝謝那目前地方政府在設施量能上這個技術選擇上都是仰賴焚化 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3339.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3354.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
請問部長對於地方在這個廚餘生殖能源化的努力中央未來要提供多少資源因為事實上從2000年開始大家就說這個規劃用資源循環化為導向但我們看到這次的應變措施還有70%是焚化焚化來處理這個廚餘的去化 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3358.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3385.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
也就是代表說中央跟地方政府從末端來處理一直到這個我們所謂的資源這個循環化還有很大的落差跟進步空間請問部長您有想過要扭轉這樣的一個趨勢嗎有的 報告委員因為我們其實一直在算說我們現在每天落差大概全台灣加起來大概是500噸有些縣市沒有問題我舉例像屏東一天40萬噸它內部的處理是沒有問題的但是其他縣市都送到屏東去這個廚餘去餵豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3387.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3412.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那基本上如果那個斷掉的話被各縣市處理各縣市的話其他縣市的確量能是不夠只能靠焚燒那我們現在的確是每個縣市去估算說你想要做什麼我們未來希望做什麼在做媒合當中那我們也正在爭取一些經費不過也跟委員報告因為現在的這個所謂的廚藥跟垃圾的處理我們希望透過促餐的方式快速的來解決讓政府的負擔不會那麼的重 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3414.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3436.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
部長這個禮拜一開始台中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化不再掩埋但環保團體有指出一廚餘裡面有氯有氯氣那加上澱粉燃燒後容易產生這個代澳腥但環管署林副署長說他公開說焚化爐都有相關的污染防治設備這個檢測請民眾放心廚餘的焚化不會造成代澳腥的污染真的是這樣嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3438.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3455.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
第一個是這個我已經請我同仁說這個月未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次每個焚化爐都要加驗一次因為驗一次還蠻貴的而且還蠻難處理的因為這個環管署的發現它代表環境部那是不是代表環境部為這個焚化廚餘背書呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3455.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3483.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
沒有沒有委員這個是屬於這種應急的時候這個在疫情的期間沒有辦法解決那我為什麼這樣說我是有道理請部長看一下台南市環保局網站的這個說法這個是台南市環保局的網站他在常見問題那個網頁寫著廚餘中的鹽分偏高可能是戴奧鑫的潛在發生源因為戴奧鑫裡面我們知道有氧有崩緩然後裡面也有氯鹽分就是有氯那不利於這個焚化系統的戴奧鑫的控制那台南環保局是危言聳聽嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3485.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3499.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那環境部說不會有帶澳新 叫我們放心那同樣都是環境主管機關 那都不同調欸我要請教部長 對啊你如何解決這個問題呢 不同調欸好 謝謝委員 那個其實齁如果焚化爐操作超過850度的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3500.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3518.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
其實那個綠可以被去掉就是沒有代澳比較沒有代澳新的一個問題那這個過程當中是一個操作的一個問題那現在呢第一個是它這個操作很重要第二個是後面有一個代澳新的這個回收等於是處理的防治的一個系統另外一個呢是我們去監測它有沒有這個超標所以這個部分我們這個會會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3519.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3538.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
政府叫大家放心啦然後地方政府現在他這個還掛在這個網站上那請問環境部多久要偵測一次那非公家的焚化爐也可以偵測也可以管理當然當然我們每一個焚化爐全台灣26個焚化爐我們都會要求說這個月再多多量一次所以你近期有要求這個地方環保局要針對大二星的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3539.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3560.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
對 我有特別請我們署長說因為廚餘現在都往焚化的方向走嘛對 其實委員就有兩個議題啦一個是現在我們的湯湯水水的廚餘水太多如果把它瀝乾 基本上它就跟一般垃圾一樣相對的壓力就沒那麼的大它如果處理好 技術上可以處理好的話溫度到一定的位置 它的代溫性就不會跑出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3562.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3586.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
你看左邊的圖10月29號環管署理直氣壯的發函要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引至少每50公分要附土30公分的規定去進行廚餘的掩埋這是左邊但是你比對右邊右邊是10月23號也就是韓文六天前的公告的指引這個指引資質未提覆蓋附土30公分的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3587.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3606.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那只說應該要復土那這段文字還懸掛在現在還懸掛在環管署的官網上部長請問這是負責了同仁自己擴大解釋嗎還是您讓他這麼做的因為質疑沒有這麼說但是你發函的部分就告訴他就跑出這個規範來了每50公分復土30公分這兩個資料現在都還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3608.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3626.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
包委員 因為這個10×10×0.5 覆土30公分這個其實是在好幾年以前 早就訂了一個規範那環保單位完全都清楚這樣的一個規範那你近日因為發生觸碰 就是那個你的指引公佈的指引沒有寫啊沒有這麼寫啊這個以前就有了 你們要不要說明一下我自己10月29號公佈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3628.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3648.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
110年就早就公佈了 各個環保單位都清楚這個都清楚現在20月29號分 然後6天前就去函你先沒有這麼 執意沒有這個東西然後去函的時候有這個東西可以一致吧如果掩埋 這個一致沒問題但是這個早就110年 早就變我們的標準流程大家要同調同步啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3649.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3674.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那那個最後就是環境這個挺直文教基金會謝董事長投書他說文中批判整個台灣的廢棄物減量真的過於保守缺乏系統性的管理導致這個廚藝垃圾嚴重他說韓國是用7年的緩衝期來分階段來做那日本的企業端他們利用的循環利用力非常的高民眾也很習慣做這個廚藝的分類跟習慣的這個非常普及他歸功於這是法規跟制度面的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3674.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3692.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以相較之下台灣往往把這個循環經濟的概念放在口號那沒有制度性的改革跟法治經濟我覺得謝董事長也是愛之深 責之切啦那面對他這樣的批判我想環境部你有沒有一個具體的這個好 謝謝委員 說很容易啦 做不容易啦那我們現在的確規劃的我會比他說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3694.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3712.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
很多的國家的我們現在有一定有一個規劃的一個方案但是這個需要經費還有各方面的一個支持尤其是這個廚餘的處理喔很多縣市在過去為什麼推不起來都變得嫌惡設施啦所以大家會地方的抗爭很多這一次就是豬瘟以後就是廚餘大家知道了然後又開始應該就剛好是可以趕快啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3715.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3743.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為如果這個觀念的改變我們的廚藥湯湯水水必須要變得有價的來處理那焚化也不是最好的方法嗎都要 都要做所以我們現在的確是有一套的一個方案但是我們現在會配合農政單位一起來推動不是解決了一個問題焚化了但是又跑出另外一個問題出來這個我們都有全盤的規劃那等到整個完整之後包含未來的經費夠了之後我們會對外來宣布那我不會說很容易啦 做很難啦我們其實已經有在做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3744.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3750.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這是部長的肩膀上的責任嘛是是 我們已經有在推動了 政府跟民進一起來好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言請劉建國委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3765.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3786.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好 謝謝主席我想本席上週在本委會就特別強調台中非洲豬瘟的事件中央各單位要強烈的介入不要再讓地方這種叫胡搞瞎搞的狀況一直發生因為醫院有清消兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3787.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3806.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
然後還會驗出陽性嘛再來就最終還拜託了國軍再度這個化學兵進入傾銷那台中市怎麼又馬上派人又再去傾銷一次這很奇怪啦我想是說從整個這個事件的一個過程裡面傾銷應變來自己處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3810.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3822.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
整個畫面呈現在國連的面前會覺得是很亂毫無彰化的在應變這件事情我覺得這樣坦白講 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3826.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3846.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這種處理方式真的會害死這些養豬場這些養豬戶然後甚至會影響到國人吃這個溫體豬肉然後以系列的所有的攤商都會受到很嚴重的這樣的一個傷害跟挑戰所以我坦白講我是真的要在這邊做強力的一個譴責部長你請起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3851.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3875.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
你在11月1號有到雲林出席雲林就是全國養豬最大最大最大宗的縣市那你在參加這個環保這個群林志工會的時候你有特別接受媒體的採訪你是希望說朝你中長期方案把會期物的觀念轉化為資源但是我要在這邊提醒部長這眼下的廚餘流向已經出了很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3876.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3896.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
已經來不及等你以後還要轉會為能了真的會趕不上來了從應變中心調查報告中初步可以了解疫情僅在台中的武器廠然後病毒恐來自未落實增足的廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3897.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3915.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我現在每一個細節我都講得很清楚了請部長就希望我的這樣的一個質詢可以提醒一些事情但這個處理到底是從哪邊來目前沒有比較明確的方向照這個表 部長可以看一下嘛無期清潔隊的處理是陰性 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3916.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3930.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
無期清潔隊的處理是陰性所以初步可以排除來自清潔隊但載運處理的車輛上有驗到非洲豬瘟陽性反應依照台中市政府的說法處理飆收後是由業者自行派車載運 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3932.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3959.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
也就是說這台車到底接觸到到哪有非洲豬瘟的病毒應該是這次查明這事件的重中之重對不對不過到現在好像要查起來應該是很費工了很費工不過還是要查還是要查第一個是清潔隊無期清潔隊的處理是陰性的但是載運的這台車輛是驗到有非洲豬瘟呈陽性那到底是不是處理出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3963.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3973.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那到底是不是廚餘出問題這是一件事情嘛那第二件事情在整個調查報告中竟然還多出一個西養豬場然後這家無竊養豬場就是這個暗場竟然還可以違規分讓多餘的廚餘給西養豬場使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3983.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3993.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這是什麼樣的狀況啦他還要用到中間給溪場去用最重要的喔溪養豬場沒有標授無期清潔隊的廚餘卻能從無期清潔隊再去載廚餘回來養豬這個表格很清楚嘛對不對這問題真的實在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4009.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4034.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
不要說養豬戶啦現在連消費者都看的都會物理看的話也都非常驚訝說怎麼有這樣的一個一個方向軸板的那不叫管理啊那等於是沒有在管理嘛應該是這麼說嘛那現在這台車這台車到底它的整個路徑有沒有辦法去追查出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4036.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4061.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這台有驗到陽性反應的這台車有沒有辦法去了解它的路徑怎麼樣有沒有從這個地方去追查下去部長就你的掌握跟了解報告委員我所知道是這個載送的目前是沒有GPS啦所以等於是透過包含了各種的車級資料還有照相機等等我們可以提供的包含了這個處理的去向各種的資料我們都已經給檢調單位去處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4063.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4090.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以這個至於說這個東西因為我沒有參與在這個疫調的這個過程所以我不清楚但是其實可能是的確是很困難的但是我們這邊是負責這個珍珠那的確那家是沒有落實珍珠的然後也跟委員報告委員剛才說的西洋豬場這個的確是違規的從這個我們的廚餘一家就是簽約就是那家不能再去分送給別人這個也是完全是違規可以會受罰的他會受罰我知道了但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4091.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4119.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
但是他會受啊 但是為什麼這一個他沒有去標這個武器清潔隊的廚餘這個西洋豬場還可以跑到這個武器清潔隊去載送這個廚餘那這兩照可以接受到什麼處罰一個是工部門的清潔隊 一個是西洋豬場對 這個會依照我們的廢清法不知道第幾條 有一條他們昨天 我們昨天有匯報這個事情是完全會開罰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4121.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4140.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
請上來說明一下好不好飼料法針對公部門還有針對這個西洋豬場怎麼採訪怎麼處理他這個因為是屬於飼料的轉移大概是用飼料管理法跟這個動物疾病防治條例來做處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4141.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4160.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
對 怎麼處分嘛 你知道這兩個條例對公部門 清潔隊怎麼處理對這個西洋署長怎麼處理請署長是不是可以說明清楚一點我們想了解一下因為這個不說明清楚我想現在是禁運然後禁止廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4163.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4173.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
包委員 這個會用動產條例去拆劃然後就是目前的狀況是會給農業部用動產條例跟飼料管理法對 啊怎麼處罰嘛 依照這兩個條例要怎麼處罰嘛是劃緩 劃緩對 啊對清潔隊 對公部門怎麼處理啊對這個西洋組長怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4195.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4213.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
兩邊應該都可以拆滑怎麼拆滑啦 我問第三次了啊你們怎麼到現在沒辦法答覆我這麼簡單 明確法律有明確性嘛清潔隊 清潔隊怎麼可以讓沒有來飆售這個廚餘的西域養豬場來載運這個廚餘工部門怎麼可以公然犯罪違規違法那我們怎麼處理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4224.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4249.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那西洋豬場怎麼可以去沒有標誌的時候可以直接到工部門的清潔隊去載送 載運這一個廚餘他又應該受到什麼處罰嘛你們怎麼沒有辦法第一時間答覆我 答覆委員會好 包委員 這個我們是不是農業部這邊來回答 回應這個農業部市 市長是不是黃市 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4255.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4256.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
有關於廚餘的部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4274.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4298.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這個廚餘工部門沒有標授給西洋豬場西洋豬場怎麼可以去清潔隊載送 載運這個廚餘那清潔隊要負起什麼樣責任那這個去載送西洋豬場要接受到什麼樣的才華主席你要多給我時間我已經問了三分鐘到五分鐘他們都沒有辦法答覆我這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4301.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4328.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
抱歉啦 好不好這太煩了你們這個太離譜了你們不管地方 不管中央 我覺得這叫做應變這個叫應變我就問這個題目 到現在沒辦法答覆我所以 他們才敢肆無淡計的持續的違法到這種程度嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4330.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4345.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以等於就是沒有管理嘛就是沒有管理嘛就不然你想要中長期的轉匯維能基本上如果照這樣的情況下去不可能啦可以打呼我了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4348.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4372.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
各位委員報告好那如果這個部分的話我們是認為應該是由這個動船條例裡面的這個因為它造成的這個疫情的這樣的一個部分但是因為動船條例裡面它的這個規定的這個項目比較多所以要引用哪一個條例的罰則的部分我們還需要再來研議市長它造成疫情 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4373.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4392.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
是一件事情 他沒有造成疫情平常遇到這種事情你們就怎麼管理 你們就怎麼處理嘛如果平常遇到這樣的事情的話應該是依照這個廢新法還有這個飼料法的這個部分來處理因為他不是在這個合約廠商裡面飼料法不是你們管的嗎我們的罰則是3到300萬的這個3到300萬是罰台中武器清潔隊還是罰西洋豬場 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4403.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4422.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
行為人 行為人 行為人 兩個都是行為人啊沒有合約怎麼清潔隊敢把廚藝讓他們來載運就公務人員的部分應該是有公務人員的這個職權的這個部分來做採取怎麼採取嘛 怎麼採取嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4427.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4456.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我現在是指疫情尚未爆發之前持續的有這種事情發生公部門必須負起什麼責任西洋豬場必須接受什麼樣的裁划發生疫情之後這兩兆要受到懲罰程度絕對有層次上的不一樣我們先講前面 再來講後面你們連前面都講不清楚你要怎麼去督導地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4457.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4486.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
你要怎麼去管理啊我後面還有很多題目要問咧我把這題你到現在不知道回答給我啊你在應變什麼啊應變中心不是跨部會所有重要的單位都必須集結然後用最快速的方法去做因應然後該怎麼樣處理 該怎麼處罰第一個時間因為已經碰到疫情發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4491.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4517.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
難道進宅進運進處理的過程裡面你中央政府跟地方政府在公休啊其實我們昨天有在討論這個事情啦是不是說明一下因為我們昨天有特別我跟我副因為我副組長他過去就在處理處理他比較清楚那跟委員報告這一個是因為他跟原來的申請的事項不同而 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4518.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4538.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
現在檢察官也在偵辦可能朝向這個檢察官處理是檢察官在處理在行政的處罰上我們什麼樣的作為嘛就這樣而已啊我問的問題不簡單嗎然後你可以分疫情前跟疫情後我都可以接受你就明確的表達說明清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4539.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4550.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
跟委員報告那非法載運儲餘的罰則會因為這個不同的樣態然後觸犯的這個條例可能有廢清法還有洞傳法還有飼料管理法那包括了如果是一般的違規的話那會 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4554.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4576.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
夾帶廚餘的這樣的垃圾的樣態會罰到一千二到六千元的罰則但是像這個樣態的話是非法載運廚餘給禁止的這個就是他不是經合格的這個養豬場的話那我們依據這個動產條例那處新台幣五萬以上一百萬以下的罰款那累犯的話會加計罰則的這個部分那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4577.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4603.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
因為他未經許可那處理廢棄物包括廚餘那可以依照廢棄法來處以新台幣六萬以上三百萬以下的罰款那其他的這個部分那如果有違反了這個飼料管理法的這個部分那我們會依照飼料管理法的部分處以三萬到三百萬以下的罰款大概是目前我們能夠去查照他的這個相關的行為規則所必須要負的責任是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4604.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4632.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
市長還有那個部長我希望你們把明確我剛剛提出來這個點疫情前疫情後針對武器清潔隊針對西洋豬場該怎麼處罰該怎麼樣的處理方式用書面資料給我們委員會所有委員做參考這第一件事情也公告全國啦好不好但是我要提醒我為什麼要講這一點來講我後面的事情今天趙委排的這個事情非常重要有利可圖啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4634.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4661.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
齁 大概都有他們的機會啦連這個廚餘都可以 可以做到這樣的程度你看那些繪圖 他會怎麼處理海洋污染防治法你只要把廚餘請到 請到到海洋 怎麼划你知道嗎 不能說他們可以從新台幣30萬以上 3000萬以下好 廚餘到屏東 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4663.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4686.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
一要闖入胡納場不曉得依照廢清法你要怎麼處理地方的環保局立即有通報東港警分局來做處理嘛對不對當場的查扣然後也移送這個環外公務然後用這個廢法處理其不實申報廢棄物等罪嫌移送平衡地檢署偵辦最高可以怎麼樣依法廢清法6000到300萬6000到300萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4690.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4716.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
除以倒在海洋依照海洋污染防治法最高可以划到三千萬我們到現在還在六千到三百萬依照廢清法第46條不行嗎如果依照廢清法第46條可以的話最高到多少你還在六千到三百萬最高到一千五百萬對除以 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4717.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4736.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
丟在海洋 最高可以花三千萬丟在你陸地 如果照部長講的 最高是三百萬如果照署長講的 一飛行環四十六條 一千五百萬怎麼差這麼多 怎麼差這麼多所以這次招委要排這個修滑你對滑款的部分 要不要重新審視 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4739.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4751.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
不能用這樣的差異吧 差太大了吧如果以300跟3000差10倍如果1500到3000是差兩倍不對吧 所以很多人唯利可圖就會跟你拼啦 就會掏門氣會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4752.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4777.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
拜託 我覺得主席是要回到這個地方來那我也希望 揮桌失誤的事情我剛剛有特別提到如果這個點不是在儲雨是在這一台載運車到現在還沒有辦法很詳細的把這台車的路徑去調查出來我覺得 不管中央跟地方到時候都會監察院見好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4783.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4798.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
請林月琴委員發言麻煩彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4801.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4824.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
林委員好部長早今天我們談廢棄物處理跟循環經濟我要延續今年初公共政策網民民間團體他給你的建議那你六月也給他們的回覆我能理解不理的考量第一個如果貿然把焚化跟掩埋等末端的處理設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4824.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4851.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
排除在出餐法重大公共建設之外地方可能會面臨到財務壓力然後技術能力的弱差那當然你也提到短期不不亦完全排除末端設施的一個出餐適用可是要等到兩三年後如果減量見效的話會努力朝向那個減燒的方向不過基於這個前提我想請教的是說首先現有的審查原則如何把 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4851.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4871.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們的廢棄物管理階層列為必要的一個門檻也就是說地方申請以出產方式來興辦末端的設施的時候須先證明已做到的源頭管理分類回收的量化門檻才能進到末端的方案評估所以請部長說明這是不是可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4872.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4898.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
委員謝謝 這個其實因為委員你剛才講到一個重點就是說如果說這個量能夠的話這個都不是問題這個未來我覺得焚化爐會慢慢的減少但是現在台灣其實各個縣市因為這個焚化爐是地方的所以他在處理他要透過出差來減少他財政的負擔那如果說按照他們的這樣的一個規劃那這個費用會誰來出就是地方要來出那這個就會增加地方的財務的這個成本所以基本上我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4900.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4922.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這個議題因為我來接觸的時候我也有了解然後我們也問了地方大概有15個縣市都反對所以我們現在基本上我覺得未來長期來看的話應該有機會走到這樣的一個地步但是現階段可能比較困難當然委員說你說廢棄物的管理的階層是不是能夠更高一點點的能夠來整體來思考各個縣市來看的話這個我們會來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4923.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4940.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
對 你要去努力否則一直在獎勵末端的處理的話源頭都是沒有反而是源頭不去做所以如果你建部裡面回覆說二到三年後如果減量成效將努力減燒是不是可以有環境部提出一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4941.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4955.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
一板就是跨部會的整個的所謂路線圖就是把地方的那個垃圾成分調查分類積查然後再利用量契約處理這些量一個整個完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4957.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4986.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
每季去做公布然後同時把達標的情形來連動到初餐優惠的適用跟強度來形成一個先減量再給力的一個明確的準則能不能做到我大概是一年大概有看到一個整體統計數據知道每天那是每季能不能達到這個以我現在接觸到的數字大概是一年會有一次的統計的報告例如說我最近看到的是前一陣子討論到看到的就是去年像有些縣市的確那個量 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4987.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5015.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
是很不夠的那可不可以再縮短一點就是半年好 可以…部長 循環經濟要落實要環境永續關鍵是在杜絕票率那國發會主責的國家永續發展獎這算是在民間評比辦理得比較好的可是其他獎項像民間團體之一評選的門檻未跟國際的反票率的機制接軌那麼關心的就是整體企業永續資訊的揭露的一個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5015.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5030.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
机制是什么国际趋势要先要求要先有合理的合规的一个底线再谈环境的那个永续那环境部是否能够建议并协调政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5031.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5045.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
主辦的或者是共同主辦的甚至部會參與的環境相關的永續獎可不可以增列說近年一定的期間重大環境違法跟處分的排除條款跟查核機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5046.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5075.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
否則他得獎結果你發現他竟然事實上是有違反那不是笑話一則嗎對 謝謝委員因為本部是有這樣的一個精神在本部頒發的獎項啦那別的單位呢像有些是民間的他或許可是更是環境的事實上是相關一體那我也謝謝委員的建議那這個部分呢我們可能可以來研議一下是不是請他們要我們有一些指引出來請他們要照著這樣的方式來處理部長是不是可以建立跨部會那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5077.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5088.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
應該就是法尊要去查核的清單講像評審前能夠審查使用過去我在NCC擔任我們的外部委員的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5090.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5108.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
一定會拿著勞動部對電視台或者是拿到社政單位對於電視台的一個所謂的裁處那才可以去決定他要不要那個評鑑過不過關還有甚至才能夠拿到證照否則的話你沒有辦法知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5108.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5136.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那如果让他顺利过关的话那表示你在支持这件事情说他环境议题做不好就他还是可以拿到奖项而且我也希望说你们能不能充分跟民间团体来宣导跟沟通好 谢谢委员我们政府部门我会来定一个指引希望政府部门来做那民间的话如果他因为他其实有些奖项他已经是一个商业行为了商业行为了那有些人是需要这个奖项的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5136.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5155.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以我們會來嘗試來定一個指引希望他們有一個規範對台灣事實上是傷害的結果他還是得獎那部長有沒有得獎或許只是結果可是現在有些企業雖然有揭露碳排跟能源使用的效能跟原料來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5156.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5178.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
但把台灣本地跟它在海外的混在一起外界看不出來台灣這一塊到底減了多少還差多少所以民間的批評這部分批評這樣子你同意嗎我同意它其實可以分開的對 所以民間團體指出說有企業的區域數據是不清楚的所以建議未來要明確區分台灣跟海外的據點同時也要建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5179.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5196.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
要連續看三年它能源使用的趨勢而且也有不少企業揭露的到供應鏈表示不是做不到是標準要更明確所以不然就像我今年處理台資企業的印尼供應鏈污染權責根本就是無法釐清所以請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5197.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5211.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
是可否要求企業更明確的清楚的揭露它碳排台灣跟海外的它台灣跟海外的一個分裂而也要求三年的趨勢包括供應鏈再生能源的使用效率還有另外再加上供應鏈的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5213.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5242.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
影響是什麼是否能夠先從我們的列管的事業或是國營事業開始要求好委員這個其實我有看過有一些很好的企業他都有把他的所有的廠的績效都把它弄出來那我也同意委員的一個看法我們會來努力因為這個有些的規範規定是經管會的那邊的要求各個企業的永續報告書那我們會來跟他們來做協商我們現在對碳中和已經有了那但是委員這個碳排介入的部分我們來努力我們來試看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5243.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5261.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
麻煩經濟部的那個祖密 莊祖密祖密好 接著要請教你就是我和環團跟印尼移工一起開了記者會印尼台資企業的員工親自到台灣來作證台灣企業跟它的供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5262.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5281.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
侵害到勞動權益 造成環境污染那我就想問經濟部你們回覆說企業表示沒有這回事 是誤會公文也寫協助釐清 降低起見所以要再來問三件事第一 後續你到底有沒有實際去做查核你們說沒有 你們在台灣說沒有真的它國外沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5282.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5303.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
第二經濟部有沒有能力去稽查台資企業在海外的環境跟勞動權益狀況包括我們供應鏈的影響第三面對嚴重傷害的國家形象涉及到環境污染跟供應鏈的問題經濟部是不是我就想經濟部不會只像寫公文那樣說加強宣傳就好吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5304.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5323.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
是 謝委員的一個提醒因為我們主責的那個投資師今天沒有過來所以我會把委員的這個意見帶回去所以如果你今天沒辦法回答我在這邊要求經濟部一週內因為這個記者會開很久我們到至今都還是沒有給我們答覆一週內對於我上次記者會提出來的訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5323.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5334.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那回報進度包含切人權禁止調查的機制是什麼以及國家聯絡點的設置的一個進度是我們再提供再麻煩好謝謝那個環境部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5342.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5363.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
上次我就要問了可是時間的關係今天我還是要問有關國際檢授公約談判結果部長在8月談判後的記者會做了非常多的承諾你說我們愛護地球媽媽的決心不會變政府會多管齊下結合源頭來減量環境再利用跟創新技術這你完全支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5363.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5383.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那延續剛剛許燕池的一個應用我要請教兩個具體的問題第一個原生塑膠的一個減產環境部接下來有沒有規劃總量管制還是繼續交給市場轉型那循環署自己說說全球的原生 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5384.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5397.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
塑膠的供應過剩價格低廉讓再生料的那個競爭力不足歐盟已經有工廠倒閉台灣業者也面臨同樣壓力那如果企業還要在國內擴廠的話環境部的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5400.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5421.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那各位報告那因為這個是我們關心是環境的問題就是因為塑膠公園他是塑膠的污染啊所以我們聚焦在這個塑膠污染的問題那基本上我們是希望說這個使用再生料的話可以來這個要求企業來使用那至於那個生產部門因為那個是其他那個經濟部門的一個議題所以我們沒有在這邊來探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5423.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5446.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那第二就是一次性塑膠原本在2023年就要全面禁用四項產品確定延後部長也說這是六七年前定的目標如果需要滾動修正的話這個我理解但目標不能模糊所以請問部長新一輪的管制時程什麼時候公佈新版計畫有沒有在年然後年底快到了今年的績效是否滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5447.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5473.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
是那各位報告那我們今年就是里程碑有一個草案然後讓大家來提供意見有個許願池那許願池也介紹很多這個民眾的意見那現在正在分析這個意見那我們預定是年底呢把這個我們的里程碑把它提出來那這邊會有依據我們國際趨勢最新的一個減納目標來回應這個民眾對檢授的一個訴求那你們新版計劃有在理了嗎是是已經有在理了是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5474.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5492.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以部長我非常支持你講的多管齊下可是我們要看到具體的進度表所以部長把很多事情扛在環境部上我非常肯定可是上述的議題請你們這邊給我一個完整的說明那我們當然也會跟部長站在一起來共同為環境來努力好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝林月琴委員發言請陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5505.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5523.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
謝謝主席我想請彭部長還有經濟部的莊主密請彭部長跟莊主密部長好上次跟您有一些交流後來因為現在國人真的很關心光電板的回收所以剛好今天經濟部也在對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5526.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5552.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
幫我按下一張好 上次經濟部有回函給我們辦公室他提到說 風災以後大量的廢棄光電板處理這個追蹤序號已經是不可行因為怕有一些傳染病等等的並且環境部建議天災之下已改用重量為基礎來做回收以提升效率我在這邊只是想要追說後來您跟經濟部協商之後的結果如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5553.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5573.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
好 報告委員謝謝委員那時候提出的一個看法那我前幾天也特別請我同仁來然後看我們跟經濟部合作那個系統那的確33個案場裡面大概有16個案場他的資料已經上來了但是有幾個很大量的只有幾萬片的以上還沒有完全上傳因為那個是廠商他要把他每一個光電板的序號 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5574.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5593.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
Key in進去 那個其實很費時啦那我有跟他們講說可不可以P字檔一次進來那這個還要需要一點點作業時間那我們已經請這個同仁把這個光電板大概多少片他的去化到哪裡整個大量到哪裡會跟委員報告那其他有一些案例已經做完了我會再跟他們委員可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5595.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5614.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這邊是您剛講的這傳統我們如果是一片光電板他的年限已到他在裝上去之前他要先上網登錄他的序號然後把它裝上去他要回收錢他在上網登錄一次他的序號再把它回收可是我有注意到最近的新聞不管是經濟部或是環境部都說 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5615.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5629.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
清運計畫回收計畫其實進度99%都已經完成了所以聽起來您剛講的這個大批量的序號要把它輸入是不是有可能已經不可行不會不會就是說整個的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5630.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5653.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
因為他每一片都有一個序號在上面然後但是他一個廠商一個去登錄一個登錄他要花時間他內部要先整理因為十幾萬片幾萬片啦齁啊其實目前呢這個他是屬於不是這種所謂的自然淘汰的是屬於突發狀況的那他其實也要進到這個系統去做一個申報所以我們還在等他但是我們委員你說的事情其實已經在進行當中了 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5653.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5681.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我知道 但我們想知道的是你這個本來的流程是不是會要有另外一個流程是因應突然有大量的光電板需要回收對 因為過去從來沒有過這樣的經驗對 所以我的意思是說未來你會不會有一個新的流程其實經濟部我所知道經濟部那邊他針對這個光電板每一個序號的管理他們也有一些精進的計畫那我們也在等他們因為未來我希望可以更及時的在數字上面可以更借鑒的更順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5682.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5709.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以之後會有再有一份新的報告是嗎這可能要一點時間因為我知道他們他們的數位系統要全面的大更新因為現在其實key in的都是要手動的因為我我自己印象我我可以用P字檔直接上去一下就解決了可是他們一片一片的key那個要key要key很久啊這個幾萬片所以我們是希望他他們可以陸續的解決那這個呢其實就可以先到例如說我們這次處理這個廚藥的這個真主這個其實我們可不可以用數位化可以來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5711.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5732.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
但是因為您實際去看的確是有光電板下面的板子是直接被攪碎或者是它被不合理的回收那它怎麼它可以去找這些批次是它已經找不回來的批次它可以逐漸的把它提上去但是並不能證明這一片的序號是它有回收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5733.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5754.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
基本上他的所有的過程一個量一個總量可以去做估算例如說一片是幾公斤那個都是固定的他們就可以去做推算大概多少片好的序號在的就會在所以的確會有一些他已經泡了水那個序號貼紙掉了沒有看到序號的會有的所以最後你還是會有一定有的只是你之後也會跟經濟部協調更改的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5756.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5772.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
對 其實這個壞掉的部分是他們現在用推斷說大概多少片大概多少片他們會算出來然後序號大概多少到多少這個其實是有的好 那可以簡單的跟我們說那您未來進度什麼時候您跟經濟部可以正式的有這樣子的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5773.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5793.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我記得他們 我所知道他們明年的新系統會開始啟用那速度 因為他們其實他們我們的資料也是從他們那邊過來所以他們那邊我們現在只有一部分的資料例如說我們有幾百萬片他們應該有幾千萬片所以這個未來的進來的速度我希望可以這個即時的能夠接進來那目前還沒有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5795.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5809.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那今天很感謝昭緯排了這樣子的議程因為其實城市採礦是國際上現在有很多期刊跟文章都在討論的議題那本來認為您的書面報告比較精簡一點只有一頁那昨天在看的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5810.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5837.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
覺得好像環境部對這個議題很陌生可是今天聽你的口頭報告有詳細的非常多那當然台灣比較可惜的是產業走得蠻前面的可是環境部還沒有辦法有大的戰略把大家一起整合在一起剛剛你有說你要很多的部門一起來協助並且去盤點我們稀有金屬現在國內的量能是多少那你可以大概跟我們講什麼時候可以完成嗎經濟部主秘也可以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5838.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5859.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
包委其实这个稀有贵金属是一个战略所以你可以看得到这阵子不管是美国跟日本签订一些稀土的协议其实都是属于一个高机敏性的有战略的物质我不方便在这个地方卸了我们所有的厂商我们台湾的优势的一个底但是问题是说我只是问你进度因为你说你现在开始在盘点 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5860.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5878.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我们这个已经进行了好几个月了已经进行当中经济部也有我们现在会两边合在一起在推动这个事情那你们预计什么时候可以完成完我们全国的量能其实我们是看重说未来我们的战略的思考是什么例如说现在很多的国家国与国之间在处理这个事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5879.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5902.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那我們怎麼去面對它所以我們是後面深層次的問題那現在有的部分的話我們是逐一逐一的去細談因為跟委員報告有些的這個戰略物資例如說我們的手機它進去回收有很多的東西它其實是去原廠的它不見得會跟我們台灣我們的政府講的所以我們一個一個要把這個所有盤點起來變成是一個很好的國家的隊伍這是我們希望的目標好 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5903.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5921.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這個是原本我希望您在報告中有提到的因為我有去查了一些資料最近經濟部長有針對這個事件發言那你剛有講到中國在10月9號無預警的祭出這個稀土的管制所以堪稱是一個無差別的攻擊啟動了一個貿易戰那對台灣而言 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5921.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5940.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
台灣有無人機產業還有大量的半導體產業極強是一個大衝擊那就說如果未來在其他的國家你有用到中國的稀土這個產品有0.1%以上他在申請出口到比如說台灣錢就必須要跟中國商業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5941.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5961.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
獲得出口的許可證那你剛講到的城市採礦為什麼今天排這個題目就是因為它對於環境的危害也會稍微少一點比傳統的採礦它的碳排比較少還有也可以讓我們的這些廢棄物把它的資源提煉出來甚至變成更重要的戰略物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5962.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5990.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那我這邊查到資訊是經濟部長希望2028年開始啟動喔這個可能跟其他國家比是有一點慢開始啟動輔導國內的廠商然後從廢棄的電器中回收再精煉稀土2031年希望可以滿足國內三分之一的需求這些我本來昨天是希望從你的報告中獲得那你現在可以口頭跟我們說你這個進程會不會想要跟經濟部討論再提前 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5991.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6004.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這當然也會提前我們是希望可以更提前而且這是我們國家的重要的產業是不是請經濟部可以報告一下跟委員報告其實這部分經部現在其實已經委託像供應院這些研究機構來 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6006.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6027.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
提升國內在有關這個相關的一個技術的一個量能那我們明年就會開始啟動國內的產業投入相關的一個研發跟相關的一個產業的一個推動目標是2030年能夠滿足國內2030提前一年我們目標是2030年要滿足國內三分之一的供應量提早一年提早一年所以明年就會啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6030.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6053.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這可能環境部部長我們看了一些比如說右邊他是英國智庫對日本的分析報告然後左邊是Elemental Group處理廢棄物轉化成關鍵金屬的集團那當然他是在講日本為什麼他會以國家級的這樣子的層級開始都市採礦是因為源頭是因為他們在船在海上跟中國的漁船有一些糾紛 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6055.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6080.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
抓了這個船長後來中國緊急的暫停稀土的出口所以威脅到日本的汽車產業所以他們就開始把它變成一個大的戰略提高到整個國家有一個專責的機構來做這個好那他除了可以去挑戰中國在關鍵礦物生產的主導地位以外也可以擴張他跟其他國家合作比如說他有一個很重要的技術輸出 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6082.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6103.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
您剛講這麼多我也是想知道說您會不會考慮加快這個速度然後跟日本合作做這樣的技術輸出因為他們現在做得很好包委員這個都有在談這個屬於關鍵戰略我們都有在談那不方便在這個時候說因為這個是有戰略的那委員你提到這個其實台灣1950年60年早就有在做這個事了二人蜥 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6105.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6121.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個電子廢棄物就是處理這個東西但是它是污染我們環境的所以我們現在要的是屬於高科技的沒有污染的可以回收的更好更有價值的東西這是我們要的所以最後結論以下四點是我希望可以您跟經濟部看可不可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6122.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6151.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
多久的時間內比如說一個月內提出相關的報告第一個就是把都市採礦明確的納入資源循環推動法草案中然後設定長期的指標還有部會分工因為昨天的書面並沒有寫得非常詳細有關於這個部分那第二個當然你已經講很多了早上口報你也說這個就是我們減少對外依賴那第三這是從日本來的想法因為他們有一個專責的單位叫做都市礦山再資源化中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6152.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6177.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
因為你有提到需要很多部門一起協作才有辦法達成那最後就是推動稀有金屬的回收基金你要不要簡短的回答一二的部分委員你的意見我們都有納入裡面那三四的話其實第一個是我是由我們資源循環署來主責那當然要跟經濟部一起合作那是不是有回收基金我們再來評估一下那我可以在一個月內跟您要到一個書面報告嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6178.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6200.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好可以好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳金惠委員發言請邱振軍委員發言好主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6203.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6224.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
邱委員好部長好部長我請問一下你在10月30號的時候說總統府氣候變遷對政對策委員會的會後記者會說最近綠能受到假訊息的干擾我想請問一下你講這句話的時候你覺得是哪個部分被干擾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6225.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6248.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
第一個是說例如說在光電板它我舉例我們在處理嘉義台南光電板受損毀的時候紅色的水然後鳥死亡鳥躲一下馬上倒閉就是受到假訊息的影響然後讓大家對光電板產生很大的恐慌第二個水質會有毒損害其實我們都驗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6248.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6277.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那烏山頭水庫其實我們也都驗了而且我們是進行強力的我們要證實它是不是廢棄物可是有人卻把這樣的一個訊息拿來當過這個水質的檢驗相比這完全是不一樣的這個斷章取義所以這個就是一種錯誤的訊息希望部長你要講清楚不然我會以為說你說風電的低噪音是假的還是指光電板漂浮在水庫上面是假的還是這個颱風過後光電板被吹散了在雨溫上面的廢光電的這個災情都是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6279.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6303.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為這種訊息現在你也知道您是部長您講的話非常重要所以我們希望說以後講這種話的時候把這個東西講清楚一點不然的話這個聯想空間非常大對不對不過委員其實這個綠能受到真的是一些錯誤訊息的衝擊這真的蠻大的也讓民眾有些恐慌這個我們也必須去正視的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6305.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6317.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
對啊 所以我講真的當然我的意思是說你還是要把它講清楚好不好不然的話我們會搞不清楚到底你指的是哪一個剛剛我提到就是說現在光電風電問題都是你們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6321.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6343.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這個綠能政策下破壞環境的產物那每一個都是大家看到露眼看到的這些證據那如果真實在這個災情數據都沒有確實傳遞的時候這樣會造成這個地方的一個誤解那我再請問就是說你們要求對地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6344.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6370.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
要求一定的減碳的額度嘛那你回答記者的時候說對於縣市政府沒有達到標準未來計劃型補助款會在這個財政補助的時候做顯著的這個連結那我想請問一下部長這什麼意思這個是我們那個氣候變遷對策委員會裡面很多的委員提出來的啦就是說因為我們提出一個減碳的目標可是很多的縣市他並沒有不見得那麼的認真啦在推動的這事情那他們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6371.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6397.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
要求我們應該訂出一些規範讓地方然後那當然啦後來當天有記者問我說那那你要求他他不做怎麼辦那事實上全世界大概都是一樣用補助的方式因為未來我們減碳會用哪一條補助目前我們還不知道因為我們採化法過了之後一般性跟計劃性的用的方式我們還在學習當中那未來應該是計劃性的補助應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6402.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6416.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
會比較多嗎 我們希望是要這樣你有賞就要有罰嘛 是你如果只是處罰的話那做得好的當然你要給他鼓勵啊 對但是我還是很好奇就是說這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6418.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6441.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
你的標準在哪裡因為每個縣市的起跑點不一樣對 這個還沒有定報告委員 這還沒有定但是因為我們未來包含了例如說我們現在要推廚餘的生殖能的中心把它能源化或是肥料化其實那個東西都是需要政府跟地方一起合作的那個補助的比例就可以從這個地方去做連結這個是我們初步想到一個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6442.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6468.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
你們現在只是想法而已還沒有具體的一個想法因為是當天有很多委員提出來說中央跟地方都要一起來做不是只有我們中央政府算出來一個數字而已那我這樣講就是說你現在只是一個想法那你沒有想過假如我們在2030年你的標準你的目標沒有達到我們環境部會被處分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6469.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6492.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
目前是不會那你自己沒有定一個罰則啊這個沒辦法定罰則你可以處罰地方怎麼不處罰自己不會處罰地方啦但是基本上如果沒有達標我相信社會的輿論國際的輿論都是非常大的我覺得還是對啊你這個相關部門還是要有一個這個機制吧對不對你對我想對上對下都要一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6494.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6518.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這個負責的單位應該也要有罰則這樣大家才會有動力謝謝委員我們現在大概都用鼓勵的啦像有些縣市做得好我們就會補助的更多這樣好那我再請問你馬頭山麗湖廢棄物這個棄置案場這個當時我們的委員要去進行這個水質採檢那農業部農田水利署農田水利管理組科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6519.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6547.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那個李元玉說他接到你們公文就告訴你們進行採樣要環境部準備儀器你們有接到這個答覆嗎包委員上一次的10月23日是我們次長因為我受到那個處理這個非洲豬瘟的議題農業部部長親自答我們就來處理開會說我沒辦法去跟委員請假了還是你們兩個部會上溝通上是除了沒有沒有沒有委員因為那天的決議因為他們要採是對灌溉用水有影響所以那個是灌溉用水但是我請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6548.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6562.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
灌溉用水如果受到污染跟環境庇護有沒有關係那個其實灌溉用水的這個標準是農業部訂的所以農業部要去負責去採這個水質所以灌溉用水你們不管就對了對 我們是管這個引用水萬一污染咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6563.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6584.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
如果說有很明顯的問題他們就會來會同我們找到這個源頭我們還是會去處理的所以我們是配合他協同他來處理那因為那天前幾天他去的時候他那個農業部他特別有特別去說了那個地方的管轄是地方的農業局在管轄這個灌溉用水而且也報告委員環境部不管是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6585.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6611.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
如果說被污染的話其實委員這個地方高雄市政府他們都已經進入這個裁罰還有他們調查的階段檢調都有在調查那有去採樣嗎基本上地方已經做過的事情其實我們只能遵照地方來進行那我們也他們其實都有照這個程序在往下走而且都有顯著的採檢這個工作因為這個爭議很大嘛如果說你看到如果說他你用肉眼就可以分辨他有沒有污染嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6612.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6640.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
沒辦法就像說我們嘉義光電板說那個水是紅的後來我們查出來是脂腐酸一樣你是查出來還是檢驗出來檢驗出來的誰檢驗都會送到第三方的檢驗機構去做化學的檢驗是地方政府檢驗還是我們環境部檢驗這一次現在已經進到地方政府他去做檢驗了環境部都沒有去做這種事情目前因為這個案子是地方政府已經在處理的階段我們中央就不會去介入所以我覺得就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6641.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6649.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
因為當天的委員我覺得你們兩個部會農業部他既然有回覆你們你們沒有回覆他說要叫他們自己代碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6650.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6672.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
保委員因為這個他是要這灘水這灘水呢這灘水不是灌溉用水不要管哪一灘水啦就是說為什麼移情美貸我現在在問這件事情為什麼農業部說回覆說要環境部帶那環境部說這是農業部的事那到底是誰的事沒有沒有委員他是需要去量那個湖裡面灌溉用水那個湖的水那農業部去看了拆開了之後所以農業部用看的 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6672.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6688.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就知道他有沒有汙染不是那個是屬於那個高雄市政府他們的這個權責農業局的一個權責不是農業部的農水署的權責不是啊那對啊那回復的是農水署嘛不是嗎是農水署農水署他的權這不是他權責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6689.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6712.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那個是地方的報委員例如說好有一個所以我們現在是這樣就今天這個地方發生的事情只要不是我們管轄的我們大家都知道了可是就是大家都不關我的事就對了報委員那個是地方已經這個馬頭山既然委員會要去了嘛我想說委員會既然大家去看了是不是我們環境部應該要帶領這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6716.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6735.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
帶頭的作用這個部分是誰要負責是不是環境部應該就是要指示他們哪個單位要去處理那個地方環保局已經全程在處理的我們無法去指揮說地方環保局你怎麼樣你做的對不對當天學術單位已經進行採樣跟保存所以你們現在決定如果驗出來有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6737.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6756.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
你們會怎麼處理保護委員因為他拿的是手邊的一個保特瓶所以基本上那個保特瓶到底是不是乾淨污染的我不知道這個可以給我們僅供參考但是如果要科學驗證有問題那我們到時候再請高雄市環保局我不曉得他們有沒有全程攝影如果有全程攝影你也不能說那個是不乾淨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6756.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6783.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
報告委員因為整個檢測監測是有一定的一個程序標準作為程序的不是說我們隨便拿個杯子量就可以了當然還是它有的儀器檢測啊沒錯啊對啊就是它只有蒐集水嘛水質水質很容易現在不是要驗水質嗎不然驗什麼它是驗水質啊可是它拿的這個水質的這個不能隨便拿我們喝的一個杯子我們杯子裡面要非常乾淨要經過處理要有消毒這樣的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6784.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6810.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
要經過採樣瓶要非常的乾淨不是說我隨便拿個我的好啦這樣如果這一次採到沒有不準的話你下次提供一個那個保特瓶給我乾淨的保特瓶給我我們一起去採檢這樣就有公信力不過也抱歉因為這個都是地方的事務啦你不可能地方一個廁所髒了就叫環境部部長去處理這個廁所啊那是地方的事務啦最後一個問題就是說我們國土署這個國土我們內政部國土署有過來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6816.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6817.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
請那個總工程師市長好這個國土監測系統裡面我拉了112年到現在數據這三年的異變點有46,032個那有21,490個違規點那2萬多個違規點裡面違規前三名的是哪些縣市你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6840.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6867.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個可能我們在聊我看你不知道我跟你講屏東3094件台南2716件高雄2184件剛好都是中央最呵護的民進黨執政的縣市那高雄不只違規是前三名在監察院去年在8月直接點名全國總共事件異變點面積高過一公頃而且超過通報年度10年又還沒有結 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6868.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6897.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
辦結案的這剛好滿足這三個條件的這個全責單位都是高雄市政府那這事件當中的其中一件是不是現在高雄的人造景觀美濃大峽谷這個會後我們再補給你是不 沒掌握還是不敢說那一塊6公頃我們有類入監測啦對啊 你知道嗎你們知道嗎有類入監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6899.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6926.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
監測不是監測你們不知道那監測來幹什麼這麼大的一個一個變異點他可以自動隱形嗎這我們都有通知地方政府你有通知嗎所以你們早就知道嗎但是這個大峽谷越變越大卻沒有任何作為那上面有交辦說你們不要管嗎沒有沒有交辦不會交辦這個啦因為這屬於地方自治可是你通知了然後也不管那那那這個是監測來是幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6929.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6953.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那我在問啦 這個三年多裡兩萬多件違規 開罰了幾件因為在中央目前這個沒有這是地方的權責嘛 對不對那你們不知道 可是監察院要你們儘速完成原理違規 半截獎勵機制以及長年未半截的相關配套罰則你們還在講地方權責那監察院還沒廢掉以前 你們應該要尊重一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6955.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6976.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以後續我們有一些這個最終去化的一些規劃方案那這個院裡面也在這個對啊你們不要只看嘛不要只看然後不管不要到時候國土署要改成這個國土看守署我們後續在這個廢青瓦裡面也有做一些相關的這個配合修訂一些法則進去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6979.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6989.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
市長請回 那我再請問部長那全國目前列管的非法棄置廢棄物的場址還有446處這裡面有沒有包含現在的高雄美濃大峽谷 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6992.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7020.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
有 應該是有啦那個包委員那個案子是你們都沒有作為嗎有有有 我們早就去這個案子是我們破獲的喔 委員這個是我們破獲的喔共同破獲的那現在已經進入到司法階段而且在調查這個整個肉粽整串的這個人都要不要抓到對啦 因為你們做了很多的那個什麼系統啊什麼導入科技啊希望你們查到了之後不要因為執政的縣市的顏色然後就會自動屏蔽啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7020.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7027.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
報告委員我對我的原則是不管藍綠白有犯罪的我沒有任何希望這樣子啦時間也到了謝謝謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員發言現在宣告待會蘇清泉委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘現在請王玉明委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7048.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7054.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
謝謝主席我們是不是請環境部彭部長還有農業部的黃次長上台請部長跟次長 王委員好部長次長好我現在手上這邊有一份是我們中央災害應變中心非洲中央災害應變中心33次的會議紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7072.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7089.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那這個是114年5月16號星期五下午3點召開的請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議 部長你有參加嗎沒有你沒有參加 環境部誰參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7093.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7098.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
沒有派員嗎應該是我們劉副組長只是副組長參加農業部這個是陳指揮官俊記主持農業部那次長你有參加嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7108.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7134.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
沒有好我要問的就是在這一場會議當中其實有一個很重要的防疫的決定喔就是他說請環境部環管署及農業部這個畜牧師針對200頭以上廚藝養豬場持續查核加強集合落實廚餘確實經高溫蒸煮 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7139.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7166.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
從5月16號開完會到這個爆發了非洲豬瘟請問這四個月當中你們真的有落實去查核嗎去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮都有90度持續一個小時嗎如果有查核紀錄報告請現在跟大家做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7167.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7181.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
包委員這個查核是地方環保局要去查核那我們是負責稽查我們是稽查3%左右的量那這個是地方環保局因為這個養豬飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7185.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7204.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的一個加強稽核的目標也就是說中央有這個稽核的責任那我就再問這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎有派員 地方有參加嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7206.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7229.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
報告委員 我們這個其實在珍珠的這個調路我們每天每個月都有一個完全的清單這個部長你聽我講我今天要表達的就是非洲出溫中央災害應變中心有開會也知道說高溫珍珠是防疫的重中之重而且也清楚展明在第33次的會議記錄裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7231.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7252.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那今天爆發出來就代表有開會但是沒有貫徹執行中央也沒有貫徹督導所以我要問的是請問開完會之後你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達然後督導然後真的有到場去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7253.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7270.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
有沒有就近去看這樣的一個完整的你們的督導的記錄 集合的記錄我覺得應該要完整的呈現出來才知道說這一次為什麼有開會但是沒有效果還是爆發了為什麼會是這樣子呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7272.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7288.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
來請說你們做了什麼你們這當中做了什麼農業部做了什麼環關署又做了什麼會議記錄是這樣子講的喔如果你們真的有徹底的一場一場針對這個沒有達到百分之百的一場一場去看的話那可能就會提早發現問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7290.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7316.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
來 包委員這一個會議是例行性的會議那每逢重大節日尤其例如端午中秋之前這一個都會有陳部長召集相關的單位去開這個會議那這一個應該是在端午節之前開的那這一次會議裡面講的集合就是我們講的這一套制度我們要去加強集合就是要加強頻率你們有嗎有 當然有 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7318.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7333.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
就是即使你們加強了多少次這四個月當中你們集合的頻率增加了多少每一個月我們都會去集合出來申報有短缺的那我們就花文給 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7334.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7361.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這個地方政府請他前去稽查我們稽核的是這一塊同時我們會在這裡面他們稽查過的抽3%你那個是例行性的你的加強強化在哪裡這個就是強化在其實平常都強化他只是提醒我們強化平常是平常強化就是要增加頻率跟次數不要在那邊講這一些文字遊戲我今天要指出來的就是你們就是沒有到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7363.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7389.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
會只是形式的開玩而已嘛各部會有用心去好好督導跟查核嗎因為之前這個坦白講大家就是心態鬆散因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟所以行李如意的開玩會根本沒有加強的措施也沒有強化的措施剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的所謂的強化就是頻率要增加你增加多少頻率提高了50%還是60% |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7392.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7411.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
請說明 以5到9月我們每一個月都有清查出來那一些所以相較於去年你的頻率是提高了多少這個 不是 他提醒的是應該是你一個月查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給那這麼怎麼叫加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7414.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7433.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
你文字沒有看清楚嗎連環管署自己的會議記錄都看不清楚派的成績那麼低只是副組長連署長自己都沒去副署長也沒有去有重視嗎人家指揮官是陳部長欸你環境部才派的成績是誰你們有相對重視這件事情嗎有12職等的副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7435.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7451.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
有12職等的副署長你剛剛是說副組長副署長副署長對對對那回去你們有強化什麼措施針對各縣市的環保局你們是怎麼個督導法怎麼的加強集合今天我要揪出這個問題就是不要只是形式主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7453.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7477.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
會只是這樣子開所以有沒有開會 有都有開會開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行沒有你們剛講的那一套就是你的SOP就是平常這樣那開什麼會叫加強集合根本就沒有加強這兩個字嘛你們是按照平常的集合才會出現這樣的情況嘛另外一個我要指出來的是在這一份會議紀錄裡面農業部你們對於這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7483.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7486.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
廚餘廠你到底是要禁止還是要開放你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說還有新增 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7490.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7519.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要強化這一些廚藝場的管理結果呢你不減反增什麼三年內還出現31間新設的廚藝養豬場你在政策上面你沒有關門他只要來申請還是可以繼續就是用廚藝養豬那你政策到底是怎麼去執行的你199頭以下你是全部禁用那你不是慢慢走向落日你還開放新增的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7520.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7542.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們目前在整個政策上面確實是往輔導他往他退場的方向來走那怎麼會新增31間我們並沒有去做禁止的這樣的那你這是什麼政策啊從2000多場到目前為止已經降下來到400多場那我們未來的方向還是希望持續在以政策的鼓勵那怎麼可能會有新設的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7543.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7564.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
法律上面并没有禁止所以你的政策就不明确啊目前是没有完全禁止这样的一个部分你们也没有想要禁止嘛如果政策是要走向禁止就不应该有新设啊那就是一个落日的概念啊让他慢慢就是有一些他就自动不来申请将来要有一个落日的这个定定的话那就会有这样的一个限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7564.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7577.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那所以這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了我要問你的是那這段時間如果還有人要持續用廚藝養豬來新設你們還是會同意嗎目前來說的話我們已經表達非常清楚了那除非達到了那個我們的監控還有持續監管的這個三個條件能夠滿足我們還有法規的這個配適能夠滿足我們才會再來看這個開放廚藝這個事情否則在目前非洲豬瘟的這個疫情還在的這個現況裡面我們目前是不會去開放廚藝的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7594.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7620.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那如果有新設的符合標準也讓他設嗎目前不可能讓他有這個新設因為目前就是已經禁止使用廚餘這樣的一個禁令所以我要點出來的問題就是你農業部的政策不夠明確嘛你從當時要嚴禁然後希望這個廚餘可以慢慢落日結果你中間還讓有一些新設的廚餘廠還是繼續可以新設你這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7621.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7638.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明就像我們一直在問說到底要不要完全禁止廚藥你們就是不敢講曖昧 模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7639.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7662.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
現在的這一些為什麼廚餘養豬其實有那麼多的漏洞你們真的覺得只有台中這一場是這樣子嗎實務上真的是這樣子嗎就已經有人點出來了就是市場爭主的過程是非常的繁複的如果大家有去看這個是我們一起去拍的你真的要做到好你知道他要花的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7664.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7692.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
跟燃料費跟溫度待它冷卻到破碎那個工法坦白講是反覆的有媒體去拍嗎你光加熱你這種10噸的廚餘煮沸要2到3個小時冬天的話可能要到5個小時那煮沸之後還要等它冷卻靜置可能是要整個晚上然後之後才需要再攪拌然後才可以再給豬吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7694.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7706.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我今天要問的就是到目前為止你有77家就是申報率低於90%的請問這77家他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎因為坊間都有人講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7715.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7735.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
根本要做到這樣子有一些他設備各方面功能沒有那麼完整的他還是可以討價保就像台中的這一場他壞掉他可能沒有修然後他冷的他直接就這樣推進去給豬吃人家也不知道相片也不見得是即時的相片看到相片你也不知道溫度是90度 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7737.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7756.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備 新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7757.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7778.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
報告委員 這個我們上次報告都說得很清楚我們有新的設備 新的做法如果還要整組要用的話我們又有新的方式來做監控那第二個呢 是這個工作是地方環保局要去第一線居合因為這個許可證是他們發的當然我們會去居合它當然居倒啊整個非洲豬人的中央災害應變中心不是你們中央部會再開的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7779.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7804.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們在督導 他們有在參加對啊 所以你們要督導啊你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛我剛剛給你看的就是從五月份到九月份你們督導了什麼 你們集合了什麼我們有督導啊那你應該事先就要發現啊我們早就發現了啊早就發現 幾月份來 部長說 部長說早就發現我們發現他不確實就告訴他你一定要去 幾月份爆發非洲豬瘟之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7805.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7820.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
他其實5月7月我們每個月每個月都發議場所以每個月都發函給他要去稽查要去稽查恰西那家恰西那家都有讓他知道那你為什麼不要親自中央就帶隊到現場去呢嚴格的查核呢這是地方的事務地方去督導中央要卸責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7821.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7847.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我沒有卸責我們制度可以改善所以你一直講說地方的責任那就是想中央卸責嗎中央跟地方都有責任不是只有地方的責任中央督導不周當然也有責任所以這件事情我要講的是報告委員我必須說實話其他家中部有很多其他家像彰化我們也同樣的幾家他們都有去查核部長你要保證這70幾家現在都沒有問題申報率沒有百分之百的你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7848.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7867.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
現在沒有了現在每一家珍珠的這個已經到第三輪的去檢測現在是沒有問題的100%了現在沒有啊現在沒有問題因為現在禁養了我們還是去機場所以按照你們的掛保這台灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了這個我們不是這個專業但是這個目前的這個規定你不是說100%珍珠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7868.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7893.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
現在沒有在爭主這個事啦但是我們去集合看他有沒有在爭主那未來還會爭主啊因為你們現在沒有進啊這個不知道這個不知道你們還要推這個就是很矛盾委員 這個我們上次說得很清楚如果要爭主有三個條件我們環境部負責的是爭主必須要自動化的即時監測這是一個必要的條件所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了你的那個即時化的監測你真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7894.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7921.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
即時化的監測溫度還包含的CCTV直接可以看得清楚這是我們目前可以做的那你就可以確保是百分之百的增組我們是希望我現在要告訴你的是夏業我們看到的是其實有更先進更科技的做法對 這個我們都知道這個我們都知道那你應該往這個方向去研議啊結果你們現在是在增組設備去加裝什麼你要百分之百的監控但是又做不到位那像這個有這麼好的Model在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7923.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7936.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這樣子的一個model然後其他的model你只要增加設備跟技術你可以很快的轉型而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的這件事情這個也是我們希望要到的目標那我就問你你這一個具體的規劃是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7939.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7964.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你預計要設多少的廠來消化你現在沒有辦法去化的這個我們內部都已經在討論完成但是這個東西必須要什麼時候要提出來我現在不能回答這個是行政院整個規劃的就是你們正向衛民嘛沒有衛民 這個很清楚這個院長說了三個這個原則必須遵守條件然後法規 查驗等等這個按照這個原則我們就可以往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7965.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7981.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那未來的規劃你那個路線跟這是不一樣的你知道你在說什麼嗎我當然知道啊這個珍珠這個是另外一條線這個不是馬上就可以好啊那你有在規劃嗎當然在規劃了啊那我要問你你這個規劃的期程是什麼這個規劃也要經費也要大院來支持我們現在在規劃了 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7982.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8011.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
但是你們如果積極去規劃你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃了你現在是去裝那個監視器嘛你現在是在忙著要加裝很多監視器委員我上次的報告說得很清楚有監視器未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來了你沒有具體啊我現在要問的是你具體像類似這樣子先進的科技它就可以把它轉換成是一個好的肥料跟飼料這個機器設備你要採購幾台然後哪一些縣市要布 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8012.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8034.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點你都沒有你都是空的我沒有沒有委員我們不是空的我們早就準備好了一個月提出來委員沒辦法你已經準備好了我們還在做疫情的處理不是空的又提不出來部長這個不是在延遲的狡辯我們是做事的不是說的所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚但是這個部分我們必須院內要核定要院長來核定我們必須要尊重整個你說你好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8035.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8057.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們規劃往那個方式去做你規劃出來了我們現在在處理這個疫情那又要處理中長期的問題那你就說你還沒有規劃好你一下子就說你規劃好了我沒有說規劃好您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向所以你還沒規劃嘛我要求就是你們這個應該要有更具體的圖像 路徑你到底要準備怎麼做你們現在是空的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8058.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8084.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
委員如果在政府機關做事我有一個想法要經過一個跨部會的協調大家是不是同意要編訂預算往前走不是說我今天說喔這樣做就這樣做的你可以先做好你的配套啊然後去說服其他部會啊你上次也說你不反對全面禁止廚餘啊你們的態度都是模擬兩可都變來變去我們有一些原則在做這個事情的那我再問你那個我們的環境部彭部長你支不支持全面禁止廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8086.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8104.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我是支持 但是有一個情況包括委員廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題那我就在告訴你廚餘的去化有很多種的方法但是時間上現在來不及委員現在來不及所以你回答的跟你做的我覺得沒有產生高度的連結就是你如果真的下定決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8104.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8130.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
你就會好好去規劃完全禁止出於應該是什麼路徑我要採購哪些設備哪些是可行的方法就會一直往那個方向去推進我想今天的質詢我是告訴部會喔就是你們的立場政策要夠明確然後你的路徑才會清楚然後地方的縣市也才可以好好的配合 以上謝謝謝謝王育民委員發言請蘇清泉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8143.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8159.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好謝謝主席我請彭部長有請彭部長還有嚴署長還有美農業部黃次長委員好部長辛苦了我 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8161.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8179.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們禮拜一去獅子鄉考察我們次長去動員了很多人包括內政部的還有公園院的還有大家都去要釐清水利署的也去來 放這個影片有聲音嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8190.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8191.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們美濃有大峽谷 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8202.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8217.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以我們有環境部次長 我們獅子鄉鄉長還有吳立華的助理也都來了連盧憲一委員 大家都去你看到後邊 後邊季節無難 防我河川 季節無難 防我河川 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8225.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8252.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
下一張相片好 伯父你還要不要去開啦我們米農那裡有大峽谷我們這裡柴鴨鄉也有大峽谷這喔 在崎坡在峰港溪上面我們陳租賦租了30公頃結果在那裡開墾超過100公頃整個有什麼什麼的都在種西瓜 種瓜果類都在架賽 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8256.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8274.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
弄一弄就切一切可以炒就可以了就這樣弄成弧形洛山峰那麼大了他也是那麼多弧形隔壁這些原住民大家都愛愛叫一個人空間跟空間跟環連跟環連然後那一天真的是當然很多人去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8276.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8304.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
不定這是縣管河川還是主要河川我現在第一個問題是我們農業部你就在做有機的雞屎去藏在地上這麼大條你們那個有機肥你們又補出那麼多錢那為什麼他要用青的草雞屎地屎這樣弄這是什麼原因這是站地沒所謂管所以他們不能申請補助是不是 市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8306.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8331.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
跟委員報告那事實上那個生的這個積分是沒有辦法不是不可以當肥料的所以他如果是沒有那個的話是將違規使用的這樣違規再六年啊你如果不在炒啊你如果不在灌他他可以買有機的買啦他如果可以買 你想要不要買他或是他不要買這個是他的意願我在想我們沒有說不賣給誰有機肥料這樣的一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8332.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8354.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
客廳這個如果沒有收入管可以賣嗎他沒有收入管啊你說農地對...是不是這樣做不可以賣你們要購買有具肥料一定要有農地的證明嘛只要是合法使用的他都可以購買但是這一塊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8355.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8356.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個你不解決怎麼辦啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8366.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8389.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那個跟委員報告如果他這個是合法成豬的這個部分的話那他就可以去購買這個我們肥料的這個補助那是有的但是是不是這個有合法成豬的這個部分容我們會後再去查一下好 你們要查清楚因為合法成豬可不可以用二三十公頃阿你二三十公頃就給他給他我們買嘛阿用那個雞腮這樣不夠多重 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8390.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8415.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
旁邊又去廚房 去工廠 去什麼的又自己去水路 農路 喔 真厲害原民會說 那不是他管的所以理事說 他只有管水而已這企部他沒有在管國土事務也沒有在管 沒人在管還要自己擔任一組的而已不然那是誰收錢的啦你們環境部都長痰痰耶律師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8417.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8435.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
是 跟委員報告他如果不是使用這個合法而污染的話他是有罰則的我們匯清法可以依39條然後以52條來罰 最高可以罰到300萬禮拜一我們去兩部遊覽車跟小車 夜遊車 差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8442.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8458.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
六七十個人所以這事情不該怪不得了我們原民會 大家都三不關都沒有人 大家都上來上去剛才說美濃大峽谷的一模一樣所以美濃大峽谷 這是獅子鄉大峽谷這真的是很荒唐 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8460 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8489.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個要好好的來處理我們環境部該怎麼做要怎麼那天我們次長去也是很表達他反對的意見是蠻憤怒的莫定來好 這個我們會來研議來處理因為這個例如說我小時候在田邊也都是拿我們的這個水肥去澆灌很吵現在就不會做這種事情我覺得隨著時代的變遷這樣的這個污染環境的行為我們是不允許的所以我們會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8489.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8495.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
協助來處理對啦 我們小時候都打鼻涕在用在打鼻涕 但現在不行了現在你如果像我去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8499.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8522.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
堆肥出來的也沒什麼味道啊那個非常好 我記得農業部補助還蠻多錢的啊補助將近百分之八十啦所以你要提供這個 不可以再這樣補了啦那全台灣的大廈企業都在種西瓜你知道嗎西瓜種 大家都這樣補這樣就絕對不行好 那這個第一題 來 第二道題 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8525.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8539 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
廚餘喔 來 下一張這間的台中出事大家都要拿來拿去我了解起來 查起來這最重要的就是存了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8540.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8550.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我們的衛工廠 衛海關入面的 大家都像現在那樣石頭那樣不轉工全部都要經過X光 全部都要查 沒什麼綠色 沒紅色通道都沒有 大家都幫我查 這是第一第二 海關入面的郵寄包裹 什麼大廈房 也查得很清楚我還要接過海關 跟我說你來 當教育你的東西來 給我罰啊不然怎麼辦 我說消費啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8565.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8582.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
因為我就跟他說同意銷毀這是什麼 你看這海上的輪船在走貨櫃輪在走 你看旁邊的都走走死人的都走走 這是你害人的剛才你說什麼你害人如果到處遇會發三千萬你害就講害了 你是怎麼搞的 阿澤說 親仔說說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8588.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8602.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我們的領海12海浬 我們的領海5海浬在裡面還是你管轄你在公海上誰領你啊所以你看 這個跟著洋流走船也是跟著洋流走 自己也在丟就因為丟丟我剛剛要進來之前我還問我們東港的那些遠洋漁船 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8609.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8638.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我說你出去都半年、一年、兩年請問你的東西怎麼做人家是有對策的第一個是這種大型的商船它上面有小型的焚化爐然後那些塑膠類的能夠焚化就焚化在海裡不可以灌然後廚藝的話他們用絞碎機我有問過部長絞碎機絞一絞弄在海裡可以嗎大家也這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8640.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8663.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
真的要這樣做啊 要說啊 既然既然我們既然哪有可能我們這間館哪有什麼風化爐 繳稅就不錯了所以都這樣拚 你看到這就是怕死人然後聯合國有組那個船在撈那些東西好 我們這次的廚餘 我看 破口就是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8664.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8673.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
台中港上面是不是有那些商船上面的廚藝他常常搶下來這一家他搶下來之後他又搬給別人搬給別人 別人有住他沒有住什麼什麼家屬四五個月兩天家屬還沒回來是不是這樣 不一定所以他的廚藝在那邊整個都搬了下來還沒來修理就來噴啦啦的就跟他打架就出事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8695.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8709.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我常常想我們從海關進來有的人從新加坡帶那個熟肉回來也不能帶回來我們海關我們人在走的我們包裹進來的那麼的嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8711.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8717.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那這個破口就這麼簡單的一個破口就是從商船、漁船上面下來的這個大家都要搜一搜台中市政府環保局、農業局都失職然後他這邊推給中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8733.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8752.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
邊境管理出問題博弈這到底是怎樣這要怎麼圍堵要怎麼補救不要讓我塞進去我塞進去很可惡跟委員報告如果是商船的話因為在商船他就有管制區所以基本上商船的這個上面的垃圾處理他現在是目前是禁止的禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8753.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8775.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
下地的啦那因為漁船的話如果是我們第一來我們沒有允許外國籍的漁船到我們境內來那所以如果是我們的漁船的話我們是從我們的國內出去到外海作業然後回來那這個中間是沒有跟其他有接觸的所以基本上你可以把它視為是在這個本島裡面的一個封閉的一個環境那所以基本上我覺得在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8776.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8801.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
境外進來的這個部分在這個國際港口 商港包括這個商船還有這個航空器的這個部分我們應該要落實來管合這個要落實管理嘛因為船家店落的廚餘一些生食還是航空器落的你們就把它消費就好了嘛那也叫做廚餘啊 那很恐怖的嘛那個部分不會當廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8802.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8817.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
不會當廚餘的嘛那個航空器跟那個商船的東西是一定淨焚化的一定是特定的這個有簽約的廠商然後密閉然後淨焚化的那是你講的理想啦我世界上怎麼會這樣做不然怎麼會出事 怎麼會破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8819.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8835.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這次的病毒一定是為了救國籍罷了嘛在國籍罷了 在台中罷了就是為了破口罷了事實就是這樣嘛 對不對所以如何來防堵 確實落實那些東西一進來 現在說的不錯你就裝潑 日白都裝乾 焚化 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8840.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8862.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
不要再讓它廚餘 你說要蒸煮 上面的白說了嘛蒸煮就是從它來蒸煮 你說要新的設備 好的設備 健康這才是好事 要不然你就整個都做堆肥嘛 整個都做堆肥不然就 粉碗是比較沒菜啦 那都是有幾乎熱量 能量轉換 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8864.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8883.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
讓地下車是最好 最簡單 肉圓肉圓所以你如果要讓它做堆肥你就要堆肥廠 要嫌惡設施做得好 這樣而已嘛保證 跟農業部兩個要好好管理啦不然這樣不是辦法啦好 主席 我們會來再檢討一下先問一題 風力發電那天 禮拜一要講到風力發電有突然嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8896.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8914.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個反黑箱 這個絕對不行喔部長這一桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌桌�桌桌桌桌桌桌� |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8925.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8955.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
最後一句話跟大家報告我們當醫生的那個20到200赫茲那個是對我們生理很大影響 用腦部所以那種低頻噪音那個雞也不會生兩隻那個人也不會生一隻我們都不認證了你知道嗎很恐怖的事情所以人都在放全世界都在放棄風力發電尤其人口稠密的地方我們台灣還引進還講得理直氣壯這是 真的是很差勁啦以上好 謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8957.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8959.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
謝謝蘇清泉委員發言 現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9570.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9589.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
來現在繼續開會請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席也謝謝趙偉安排今天這麼重要的主題來做討論請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9594.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9613.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
王委員好 部長好今天就針對我們所制定的主題有關於這個資源再利用的部分來跟部長做討論如何能夠走出這個線性的困局還有在弱勢農業循環經濟的部分包括強化台灣的這個土壤韌性我們共同來討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9614.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9639.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那針對於這個資源循環的雙法早上部長也說明了非常的清楚很快的就會在這個立法院討論以後就會送到立法院這邊行政院先討論以後送到立法院這邊來做後續的處理那目前的這個推動進度還有在處理如果通過以後在資源在利用的效率上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9640.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9658.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
有沒有個明確的指標可以來讓我們處理的部分可不可以也請部長或者是也請署長一起來說明一下那跟我們報告我們現在指標是用循環利用率跟資源生產力還有人均物質消費量來當作一個我們要推動循環的一個指標那原則上主要還是用循環利用率為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9660.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9682.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以就是希望能夠再利用為做一個最重要的訴求我們來看一下一個所謂資源再利用如何能夠走出線性經濟困局這個部分其實2025年的循環落差報告就告訴我們說全球經濟在利用的資源比例其實是在下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9683.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9705.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所謂下降的原因就是在全球每一年會使用到1060億噸這麼多的原料物裡面僅有6.9%會被再回收再利用這個比例真的非常低甚至會相較於2015年還下降了2.2個百分點所以線性經濟一直是我們走不出的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9706.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9722.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我相信台灣面對這個困境部長跟部裡面同仁一直很努力的希望能夠有更好的機會把這個資源再回收再利用所以在這個相關的法案資源回收再利用法裡面目前就增列了第11條 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9724.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9747.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
透過第11條希望能夠讓這個資源循環事務的推動有更整體性的上位的法來做指導的方針那這個第11條裡面也規定也要求主管機關要會同其他的機關共同報請這個行政院核定以後來執行一個叫做國家整體資源循環計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9749.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9766.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個計畫裡面預計每五年要檢討一次而且每年要撰寫相關的報告推動的成果讓對外界公開所以這個看起來是一個很重要的一個新政的立法而且有很完整的相關的要求包括這個循環計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9767.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9777.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那這個循環計畫到目前為止我們當然希望能夠有好的這個想像跟藍圖那這個目前可不可以說明相關的規劃嗎 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9781.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9805.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那我們是在就是十月份我們有提出了一個循環經濟路徑圖的草案那這個草案提出來之後呢會利用在明年一年的時間徵求各界的意見那把這個包括我們各個產業還有我們一些物料的一個意見那都可以收集進來那到這個2050年我們這個中間要怎麼樣來進行我們的循環經濟的一個進展那會在這個路徑圖來提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9807.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9822.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
是 所以在最近有開了一個2025年的亞太循環經濟論壇記者典那相關的這個會議我想部長當然總統也在指示說未來我們希望能夠幫助下一代有更永續的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9823.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9848.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
讓我們的下一代可以順利的成長那這個孩子的期待我們必須要共同來承擔所以特別剛剛講了署長所提到這個循環經濟路徑圖這樣的草案那這個是未來國家的核心目標那在處理這個核心目標的時候目前相關可以讓民眾或者是全民可以了解的部分可不可以請部長稍微說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9848.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9861.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
報告委員 這個其實是因為我們對於這個減碳的路徑 2050年淨領是確定的而且拉到2035年但是循環經濟目前是沒有所以我們其實也看到各個國家都用這樣的一個方式來比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9864.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9878.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
長期的這個政策可以更清楚所以現在我們是提出一個草案如剛剛我們的署長說的例如說我們的循環率等等的指標我們把它直接放進去然後我們現在算是一個公聽那個公聽甚至這次我們主動的邀請國際的專家都來給我們意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9879.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9894.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以現在有得到七十幾個意見那我們預計的明年一步一步的就會把這個細項拿出來讓大家討論我們希望明年年底可以一個這個其實是2050年 這很長但是我們現在不做的話這個目標就會比較不明確我們是希望趕快來定案 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9895.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9919.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
是當然在這個過程基礎建設的處理是非常重要是2050年好像很長其實很快也就會到了那我們期待台灣可以在這方面具有一個領導或者是能夠讓世界作為參考一個重要的過程好謝謝署長這邊的說明也謝謝部長針對這個題目所提供的一些說明再過來就是有關於這個貴金屬精煉這個也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9922.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9949.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們重要的題目主題之一就是如何能夠都市採礦那這邊有一份中濟社的報告的書我想部長應該非常熟悉因為這一本書其實提供針對於面對國際這些礦物關鍵性的礦物資源的出口管制的因應措施很感謝中濟社潘董事長他們真的非常用心 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9950.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9974.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
會定期根據需要來把主題做了討論以後成為一本書可以讓外界做參考那這個裡面其實今天早上部長都講得非常的清楚那比較需要大家要注意的就是事實上要體驗這些貴金屬有它一定的社會成本不管是對環境的衝擊也好或者是對這些從業同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9976.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9999.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
在健康的這個過程當中如何做好完整的保護這個都需要有很好的配套措施當然我們很希望把這些重要的金屬透過好的方式能夠從製或者是在台灣有充分的利用那這個外部成本相對也是向部長所提到的其實是大家要共同關心的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9999.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10024.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以期待我們在回收過程或者是對於環境衛生的部分也希望共同的來注意來讓在這個過程裡面的環境衛生的保護也希望勞動部也能夠共同來把關謝謝委員的建議我們目前研究其實還沒有勞動部的角色但是委員提到這個建議蠻好的我們會把它列入考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10025.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10045.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
謝謝 列入 又邀請他們來參加再麻煩部長也麻煩這個勞動部因為對勞工來講他這個真的在這個職業安全上面是有他的要顧慮的地方下一個部分我們要麻煩農業部防次長也一起來討論一下有關落實農業循環經濟強化台灣土壤韌性的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10045.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10072.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我想大家對這部錄影片紀錄片應該還是有深刻就是種土我本身是一個農家子弟所以對種土真的感受非常深刻那也很謝謝我們在做視頻營會的時候有卓院長還有陳俊俊部長我想次長還有當然彭部長也都有在現場去了解這個種土對於臺灣造成的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10073.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10098.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
希望能夠讓台灣有健康國土才能夠打造健康台灣這樣的願景之下大家共同來努力那在這個紀錄片裡面我們看到就是我們這阿仁啊 這個男主角他每天要面對這麼多這麼多的不管是廚餘還是在處理這個食物之前所遺留下來的東西如何能夠讓它變成一個有機 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10099.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10117.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
而且是對於土壤有幫助的除了是希望撕毀作為作物以外呢是要改善土壤相信大家的感受都非常非常的深刻那回歸到今天的我們的主題就是如何能夠讓這些廚餘變成是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10118.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10137.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
有機耕作的一部分那我們也看到有機耕作的面積在台灣是越來越成長這個是大家也認識到對環境的保護是有這方面的需要那在這個過程裡面其實我們也看到廚餘變成一個有機肥料過去七年的這個統計裡面107到109這個堆肥的使用養豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10143.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10168.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
的部分是逐年的下降對回的是逐漸的上升可是到了110年以後反而這是趨勢是反過來的那這個反過來當然有可能有一些原因那這個原因如何去做有效的政策上的調控如何讓這些家戶的廚餘能夠在回復到之前我們希望能夠更有效的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10169.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10190.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那除了這個家戶的廚餘以外事實上還有包括事業廚餘事業廚餘這個飼料化飼料化的部分就更多了到底是我們在變成這個飼料化跟肥料化當中成本的差異到底是不是會造成大家會往這個飼料化的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10192.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10209.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
去做這方面的改變或者是有什麼其他的因素讓我們無法讓這樣的肥料化可以更有效的來運用這些廚餘不知道目前有沒有相關的資料可以給大家做了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10210.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10225.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
跟委員報告那事實上有關於這個土壤這個部分確實是我們農業最重要的根本那所以我們一直在做這個就有機的循環還有堆肥的這個利用的這方面那一直也是我們本部裡面的施政的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10225.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10250.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那但是剛剛就陳儒委員所說的在這個整個廚餘在飼料化或者是肥料化裡面他因為所投入的成本不同的這個關係那會造成後端的利用者的這個意願上面的這個問題那所以但是我們覺得這個就以廚餘的這個方向去像剛才以廚餘為主這樣一個方向以本部的立場來說的話我們是希望慢慢的透過這個政策的引導讓他走向這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10252.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10273.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
慢慢的減少所以事實上我們也看到事實上是往這個方向在走但是在於有機肥料的堆積方面我們本部的這個部分目前也正在規劃成立一個有機的這樣一個部門專責來處理相關的這樣一個議題我覺得這個方向是跟委員的期待是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10274.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10298.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好啊因為包括像飼料化或肥料化的成本分析針對於政策上面如何引導應該是可以讓大家共同努力朝著我們期待的方向來執行好謝謝次長這邊的說明不過下一個問題就是有關於這個我們也知道在耕種的過程裡面很多東西都會使用到塑膠布 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10299.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10318.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
塑膠布其實造成一個環境污染是很明確的因為我們也了解塑膠本身是如果不能分解的話對環境的污染非常的影響那現在有大家都很努力的在用一些有機濃膜那目前的推動狀況是不是也請次長跟我們做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10321.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10337.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
因為其實這些農模真的是CP值又高又能夠減少農民發揮又能減碳因為過去的這種黑塑膠布的這個農模的那個部分一來我們不希望它造成環境上的污染所以我們在農模的去化上面也會花費很多的這個成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10337.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10356.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那所以目前我們有透過這個在中華紫江還有振隆他們已經有申請這個認證的這個部分可以變成這個我們有機的這樣的一個材質然後來做這樣的一個部分那我們後續也會利用政策上面的力量逐步來推廣這個有機濃膜這樣的一個使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10356.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10374.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
是 如果能夠有更多的百分比來讓這個有機農模可以好好的運用的話相信對土壤造成的這個不友善的這種部分呢可以得到很大的改善我相信對農業部來講這個 對不起對環境部來講這個壓力也會少很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10375.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10394.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
因為我最近有看到一些年輕朋友或是研究團隊我都有接觸到他們其實他們的創新是蠻不錯的那我們會有一些策略來協助他們能夠在市場上能夠佔有一定的一個地位好最後一個就是看起來很小很小的東西可是其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10395.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10420.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
也蠻擔心的因為目前包括這個在堆肥廠裡面水果這個蔬菜貼紙是前三大污染源之一看起來一點都不起眼可是造成的影響其實是非常非常的大那尤其根據歐盟包裝跟這個包裝廢棄物的規範的新法規未來像這些水果跟書籤的標籤都會被要求具備可堆肥性 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10421.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10435.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
就是說它必須要是Biodegradable就是需要是可被分解的那目前到底我們不管是環境部或農業部有沒有共同來把這些部分做要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10436.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10460.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這個跟委員這個部分就讓我們跟這個環境部這邊來稍微研究一下那因為基本上因為我們有時候是希望說這個產品的來源標示是要清楚那到底是哪裡但是基本上如果不貼的這個部分會不會對於這個消費者的這個來源的這個標示這個部分可能我們還在跟環境部再做一下洽商 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10460.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10487.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
他需要貼可是他需要是可以被分審的這個我們來努力啦因為我們兩個算是法令規還有制度上要重新再設計我們會來演繹是是是是很麻煩這個兩個部會持續的在努力所以最後就是有關落實農業循環經濟強化臺灣土壤韌性就有三大包括廚餘肥料化強化這個有跟強化土地富裕更做到消費政策都能要確實減碩 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10488.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10499.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
是不是先兩個部會能夠討論以後給我們一份的報告報告給這個委員會給我們辦公室一個月可以嗎 一個月可以謝謝王振旭委員發言 請林淑芬委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10518.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10523.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
謝謝昭緯 是不是請我們這個彭部長有請彭部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10527.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10549.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
部長 我現在就較於台灣資源資收關懷計畫的問題就是說台灣的資源回收體系長期其實一直仰賴一群在角落默默勞動的個體回收業者我們都叫他們叫拾荒者 這樣子來講好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10550.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10571.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那依據環境部的統計2023年列冊的拾荒者它的回收量高達了64.7萬噸佔全台灣全體回收量9%這個貢獻度就跟全台灣所有的清潔隊的回收量10%大概是不相上下 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10572.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10598.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
換句話說 這個還只是列冊的拾荒者合理的推估每一個個體的回收做回收的這些個人他實質的回收應該遠遠超過只有列冊的9%所以對資源回收的體系的貢獻度非常非常的大他的真實貢獻事實上是嚴重低估的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10599.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10614.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那為了推動淨零轉型國發會公告的資源循環零廢棄的關鍵戰略的行動計畫中資收個體戶就是實況者被明確的列入公正轉型對象主要也是唯一的策略就是要推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10615.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10631.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
滋收關懷計劃而你們在108年就推動了滋收關懷計劃你們其實不是要幫助死亡者你們是要提高回收成效不裝的廢棄物如廢玻璃廢紙容器廢電子用品等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10632.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10655.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
它的回收率那你們是透過了高於市價的收購補助鼓勵這一些個體戶實荒者去收集這些低價的回收物然後去彌補這個市場機制不足的地方那我們這樣要來檢視就是說你這個計畫到底有沒有達成原本預期的政策目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10657.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10676.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那你們的個體戶將指定你們政策要說這些死亡者必須把這個指定的低價回收物然後送到指定的站點然後可以獲得高於市場行情的補助金譬如說廢紙容器曾經高達1公斤補助18元當時的市價是1.4元 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10681.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10699.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
為了控制預算你們還是有設限每個人最高上限只能夠我就補助你到5000元所以這樣子113年你們這個計劃參與者平均每人每月平均補助金額是4253元看起來成效好像很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10699.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10721.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
平均每個人都達到4200多元了但是實際上能夠領到資收關懷計畫補助的人其實是少之又少我現在第一個問題就是事實上你的計畫的覆蓋率其實是相當相當的低依據民間的一個團體組織叫做五角盤回收平權協會五角盤 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10723.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10735.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
在2024年台灣實荒者調查報告和公正轉型政策建議書裡面指出所有的這個實荒者的樣本高達八成83.8%的人從來沒有聽說過這個計畫那事實上他們調查對象裡面只有2%的人有實際獲得補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10745.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10772.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那在這種狀況這是不是真實呢因為你們的官方也有委外研究報告你們委外研究報告裡面也顯示在官方掌握的沒有列冊的群體中有78.55%的人根本不知道這是啥計畫根本不知道 連知道都不知道在你們列冊的人當中也只有四成的人參與過這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10776.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10790.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那在根據五角盤的回收評選協會的調查那在問到這個問題的時候所有被調查人員都會問這個調查人員說這個計畫這麼好我要去哪裡申請可以打哪支電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10791.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10816.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
換句話說 資收關懷計劃基本上是對一個目標群體八成來講大家都不知道隱形的計劃所以看得出來環境部對這個計劃的宣傳不足設限過高以至於回收第一線的這些人難以獲得任何的協助 連資訊都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10817.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10826.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
第二个问题我先讲完好了这个补助的机制设计跟拾荒者的需求严重脱节 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10827.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10851.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
这个计划的补助机制设计是说我们发放补助款的方式跟时程是要按月结算可是你知道多少的拾黄泽你叫他累计一个月送到指定的站体然后要换取点数重量兑换的补助金然后一个月以后才要汇到他银行的户头 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10852.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10877.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
可是多數的拾荒者他是每天要賺這個錢來吃飯的你叫他等一個月他等於沒飯吃所以五角辦秘書協會的秘書長廖鴻義他指出很多拾荒者急著每天的現金才有辦法吃飽飯聽到月結要匯入戶頭大家就怕死了 大家打退堂鼓 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10878.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10897.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以有受訪的拾荒者直言在這種狀況還提供身份證還提供戶頭大家就收回去了所以在你們自己官方的報告裡面也明確的指出資收個體業者的收入就拾荒者收入上大多介於五千元以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10898.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10911.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
不是講補助喔就普通每一個在拾荒的人這些人平均每個月就大概5000元以下了這跟民間的數據76%的月收入不足6000元是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10912.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10938.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
一个月总收入三五千元不足六千元的人每天的生活费就只有100到166元你叫他们等30天去月结这不是不便这是不可能不可能没饭吃过日子所以你发放的模式不符合拾荒者的生计实况然后你每天没有现金流他就等于不用吃饭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10939.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10958.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以它是難以承受你們計畫的這一些設計所以在這種狀況裡面地方政府在執行資收關懷計畫的時候還有設限耶不是說你要去做就做地方政府還設限在申請資格裡面額外限制了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10959.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10984.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
限縮了受惠的範圍大部分的環保局在你們說一年編列1.4億然後你們預算執行率58%的原因就是地方環保局說你要來領取這個補助的人你要設定低收入戶中低收入戶或是領取老人津貼的人才可以有這種補助的資格換句話說 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10987.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10994.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
要符合特定社會福利身份資格的實荒者才能夠被允許參與這個計畫可是事實上你們沒有這個設限可是地方政府你給他的錢這麼少大家都來他要怎麼分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11002.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11031.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這不是地方政府的錯因為錢太少所以大家都來他沒得分配只好在設限所以事實上各地都傾向將社福資格作為門檻在這種狀況裡面所有的調查當中只有24.9%的拾荒者具有這種身份所以在這種狀況裡面真正能夠領到資收關懷補助的就是這麼少數以新北市為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11032.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11055.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這麼多人在從事拾荒截至到2025年的4月幾個人領到你們計畫的補助你知道嗎新北市人口超過400萬拾荒者我不曉得有多少人但是你猜猜看有多少人參與了你們資收關懷計畫有多少人領了這個補助你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11059.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11080.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們手上沒有資料 不好意思好 我告訴你 56個 56個全台各地的地方都一樣啦全國有7500個列冊可是你知道真正從事石荒沒有列冊的我想不是一倍兩倍啊 數倍於此啦所以參與關懷計畫的全國總人數才2700個 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11086.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11110.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個跟整體在做回收實荒的人的落差太大所以看得出來你們的政策誘因不足推動力道不足然後事實上可能可行性也有問題你們的預算也有問題現在我們要問的是你到底是要來解決實荒者的問題還是你要是要提高這一些市場裡面冷門的回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11112.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11119.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
廢棄物回收的問題你們難道不想提高這些回收率嗎如果你想提高這會是一個方法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11121.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11141.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
好 報告委員第一個我非常肯定就是說這個資收者他幫我們做在社會上做的事情所以其實我去年也有去看過也去了解過他應該是主力對這個是我們很重要的一環所以我們今年在我們的回收基金的委員會裡面我們就很主動的邀請五角辦能夠變成我們的委員職 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11144.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11165.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
雖然你們編列多少預算是重點嘛除了這個計畫以外還有沒有別的你到底是要照顧死亡者還是要提高回收率這是兩件事這兩個同時可以一起但這也是兩件事也是一件事所以我們現在他開始進到我們這個體系之後幫這個接收者的這個發聲的管道或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11166.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11189.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我們的這個政策就可以做顯著的修正所以我們正在進行當中那第二個委員提到的各縣市跟我們的關係因為各縣市有些的縣市它清潔隊是不大喜歡資收者甚至有會被檢舉的所以我們也不是啦這個跟我談的我在談這個計畫你要怎麼提高這一種冷門的沒有人要收的廢棄物的回收率嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11190.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11211.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
對不對然後我現在講就是說你知道在這個覆蓋率這麼低實荒者的生活困境非常的嚴重而且回收市場的價格持續低迷甚至這個下滑有多達75%的實荒者都普遍認為回收的價格太低了收入太微薄了減了一整天的回收物甚至換不到100元 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11213.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11231.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以廢紙板1公斤1.8元 寶特瓶1公斤2元這種價格 死亡者一天辛勞工作十幾個小時可能才100元減紙減三天 也有人減不到50塊所以寫五角半他們也有數據76.8%的收入 死亡者收入不到6000 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11238.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11254.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
但是將近一半48.3%的人他的收入不足3000所以他們往往還要加著老人年金低收補助打零工來勉強維持生活但是我要再講這一些個別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11255.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11284.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
拾荒者對資源回收體系的隱形貢獻我們要請大家看清楚他沒有在現行補填制度當中得到應有的反應對於減食回收體系其實他們在回收的時候 他們進行了非常細緻的分工比如說他們要繳紙類 他要分白紙 牛皮紙 豹紙 廢紙 雜紙提高回收物的純度和價值比如說他們會把鋁罐壓扁 把寶特瓶壓扁 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11286.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11309.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
節省體積以便於後續的處理所以他們在勞動上大概的彌補了這個機械分類的不足降低了後端處理的成本而且有效的提高了資源的再利用但是作為循環經濟幕後的英雄這一群第一線的工作者長期以來沒有獲得合理的報酬我現在要講了環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11311.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11329.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
向生產者收取的回收清除處理費所得的款項幾乎幾乎全部都用在補貼上游大型回收和處理廠而不是基層實況者當國際原物料供需失衡導致回收價格波動的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11331.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11359.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
上游的業者因為有基金的補貼得以部分緩衝但是價格跌勢最終都是直接轉嫁風險其實是讓最下游的第一線的個別的拾荒者去承擔換言之有利潤的時候被上游的處理廠商拿走了而在末端的人他還要去承擔風險而且價格往往是砍到底砍到建股 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11359.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11383.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
他這麼廉價的在做回收所以這裡面有沒有結構上我們對於回收基金存在著結構上的不公平這種結構性的利益分配的不公平導致死亡者在回收體系做了最大量最辛苦的工作分不到應有的合理的報酬這有沒有要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11384.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11408.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
有報告委員那個五角辦他現在我們邀請到我們基金的委員那我希望這樣可以結構性的我們公司協力一起把這個我們本來是寄望於兩法合一然後我們對於這個業者繳交的這一個基金我們還是有很多意見譬如說這個業者要負責回收的責任錢拿不拿不拿都沒有但這個錢還頂了很少 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11411.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11435.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這個責任都丟給社會丟給政府丟給這些做回收的可是從上游的錢然後這些結構都沒有改變既有的這些錢來分配既有的既得利益者也在那裡錢也不拿出來你現在編列要給這個回收的個別死亡者去處理你只能還要用公務預算然後你這個基金挖能夠挖多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11435.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11459.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以最終我們一直在講兩法合一這個法律面結構面責任承擔上從生產製造輸入的業者要承擔更多你們也是沒有作為喔這個也是沒作為好在這個法律沒有處理的狀況裡面就現在目前你還能不能再分配更多再給這一些個別的釋放者可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11460.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11479.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
各位報告那現在在五角辦他的創辦人已經是我們費率委員會的委員那就可以從一個費率結構來看一下說我們這個補貼的一個架構的一個合理性一個委員進去你們裡面討論能夠真的有決定性的影響嗎是你們啦你們要有願意改革的心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11479.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11489.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
有啦 包委員因為我們的經驗是說有時候通常這個都是找專家學者啦那這個專家學者不見得那麼懂得死荒者的不要講專家學者我剛剛這樣講你不覺得結構上分配上已經不合理了嗎失衡了嗎是我們過去是都沒有找死荒者來參與補貼給這個大型的業者大的業者然後風險來了叫每一個死荒者全部去扛起來和承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11505.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11523.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這樣子合理嗎那就不要再講結構上的問題了那個我已經也講很多遍了光是這一環都要大幅的改變我們希望開始有人進來跟我們一起協力來改變這樣的措施你們錢要給出來資源要給出來才是重點是是是好 謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11530.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11534.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
好 謝謝林淑芬委員那下一位請我們廖北祥委員謝謝主席先請彭部長還有我們的農業部的次長好 請彭部長還有農業部次長趙偉豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11548.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11564.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
今天早上其實聽了很多位委員的發言那其實也可以看到一個蠻大的狀況我先首先先問一下部長其實你後來給的報告全國廚餘養豬場有百分之百上傳的有幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11565.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11572.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
上次的報告是151家對 所以也換言之曾經有漏傳過的是284家佔了6乘5 6乘5.3% 65.3%好 這是第一個問題第二個問題剛剛劉建國委員在質詢的時候也問了兩位現在發現說這個養豬場它標售到了之後這個廚餘又轉到了另外一個C養豬場 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11591.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11620.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那你們到底要怎麼罰用什麼管法誰可以罰剛剛你們一直推來推去答不出來現在有答案嗎還是你繼續認同剛剛你們的答案有廢清法第幾條48條48條是很清楚這應該是有問題的喔因為除於養豬的有那個可以除於在利用的這個養豬場如果A公A家標到他還是可以讓C家去在喔是不是這樣不可以不可以完全不可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11620.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11641.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是依照減核計畫裡面就有規定它的收受來源 清運的是誰 到什麼地方如果沒有符合以上的就那到底可不可以 它可不可以它可不可以譬如說它A養豬場它標到了之後另外一家C養豬場也有合法可以再利用的執照那它可不可以給它 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11642.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11661.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
如果在那個檢核裡面有寫就可以所以是可以所以是可以那以這個狀況他可以不可以因為這個本席剛剛很疑惑第一個你們推來推去搞不清楚狀況不知道到底誰管使用什麼法管你們還查了一大堆查了很久喔這其實是一個很大的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11662.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11683.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那再來地方這邊有說這個是有許可證的兩個廠都有所以就算A標到C廠他如果有正式的執照他要去載他要去用是沒有問題是沒有法可以罰他的請問究竟可以不可以他必須在地方經過檢核過就是再利用檢核 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11684.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11701.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那如果在利用有檢核過他是有這個許可證的就是說有地方發的這個許可證的他可以去載對不對你們就沒辦法罰對不對對對嘛好所以你們剛剛這樣子整個狀況推來推去你就會發現環節是有疏漏的因為第一個分工界線也不是很清楚那 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11702.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11723.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
可能環境部認為說廢棄物是你們管的那他用廢清法農業部覺得要用廚餘還沒蒸煮之前可能是環境部管的然後整個運送收集的過程可能都會有模糊地帶所以本席從早上聽質詢到現在這是第二個很大的問題所以我想要表達的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11724.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11747.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
從邊境進來之外這個病毒不會從台灣突然無中生有跑出來對不對那進來之外就到了廚餘但廚餘管理本身是有很大的問題所以當初決定不全面禁止廚餘養豬的時候管理就會冒很大的風險所以包含剛剛那個部長也回答嘛總共有284家曾經漏上船 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11747.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11776.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
如果他任何一次漏上船的時候他沒有落實真主那一次是不是就可能會爆發豬瘟這第一件事第二件事情是既然當初決定是用這個沒有要全面禁止廚養豬為什麼過了這麼多年呢卻沒有好好的效法日本有統一的管理像包含剛剛所謂的這個桃園或者是雲林他們統一處理完之後再分送到各個豬場這樣子的管理風險和管理流程就會嚴謹許多啊 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11777.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11791.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
謝謝委員 其實第一個是說如果說那個他沒有90%他基本上我們如果沒有徵組的話其實我們又要求他縣市環保局要去集合集合他有沒有照規定 然後就會改正 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11792.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11808.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
你這個我們其實上一次討論過很多但是這個管理流程還是會有疏漏嘛他今天沒有上船了他那一天沒有上船那他如果沒有落實珍珠你後面再去集合的時候他是不是也漏洞了這是會有的嘛所以這當時的技術只能做到這樣因為這個當時五六年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11809.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11825.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
對 所以本席要講的事情是你剛剛有說你未來的方向當然你傾向於全面禁止那就是秀敬未來的方向是什麼你有沒有要繼續斟酌除雨如果要或不要你都應該要有配套嘛所以應該是過了這麼久應該要盡速的跟上 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11826.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11843.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
譬如說日本的腳步有比較多的統一集中處理的地方然後譬如說剛好包含著變成迅速變成堆肥還有部分變成所謂的飼養株汁的營養液這才是要儘速追上的一個正解部長所以本席就是想問這部分是不是可以儘速的改善加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11844.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11869.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
好 謝謝委員的確我們都有在研議中長城的規劃但是這個最後還沒有定案而且跨部位的協調現在最大的問題就是說我們的廚餘量現在每天還缺了500噸所以我們如何這個有沒有一個時間點可以把這個500噸用更好的方法例如說堆肥或是說整個整個生殖能的方式去做處理或是黑水盲那其實這個部分我們正在估算然後還有每一個縣市它到底因為這個每個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11870.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11895.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
是不大一樣 我們正在進行當中因為今天這個時間我也是想要盡量控制這一題我們也花了蠻多的時間請部長 儘速評估完之後究竟現在我們所謂的這種統一處理的方式你要多久的時間可不可以趕快跟上再提供給本席辦公室好不好我們等到這個事情因為現在都在救災我們剛剛打不清楚是我們最懂的是都全部在應變中心那也請你們吉利跟行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11896.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11916.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
就是趕快去推動你所謂的這些希望未來的中長期的規劃還有相關的預算好不好沒有問題我們現在正在進行當中部長再來進到下一題就是其實這個廢棄物流向管理的問題環境部每一年在智慧執法在無人機 衛星影像 GPS這些追蹤的科技工具你們也投入了很多的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11918.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11940.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那其中環管署在去年8月20號也報請行政院核定推動這個叫做強化全國廢棄物流向遠端數位管理智慧決策計畫那也在今天的報告第5頁也有寫到那為什麼請教一下部長為什麼明年的預算書裡面沒有這個計劃請問行政院有核定這個計劃了嗎有沒有計劃核定的文號 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11943.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11963.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個文號還沒下來 但是在行政院裡面有做過決議所以在組計處和這個整體預算預編的時候有把這個拿進去那後續我們這個文號在審查之前會把它補上來所以你現在還有在申請當中因為本席並沒有看到這個相關的之前都在行政院討論過有確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11965.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11978.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
好所以我要進一步說環關署之前用行政院核定的這個預防環保犯罪暨智慧執法打造綠色幸福家園計劃好那這個計劃呢從112年開始到117年 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11983.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11997.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以今年以前行政院跟環境部的施政報告都有這個計劃那也說了有多好多好的成效等等但是計劃明明是到117年才結束為什麼明年的預算中已經沒有這個計劃那部長這個行政院的這個計劃並不是只有讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12001.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12021.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
部會編列預算重點在每個計劃中每一年度的每個子計劃都有計劃目標啊也就是所謂的指標說明或者是績效指標還有管考所以這個計劃到了115 116 117這三年就沒有了嗎是明年就開始不要建置這個智慧化的整合性平台嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12023.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12046.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
跟委員報告這個計畫我們確實有報行政院就把它中止因為近年來那個環保犯罪的樣態已經是組織化跟這個上下有結合化所以這一個部分我們在精進成剛才講的智慧維理計畫來推動這個取代它不過它裡面該做的事情也都含在裡面以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12047.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12074.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
對因為這個東西目前一直到現在感覺雖然你們的報告裡面說抓了很多可是事實上並沒有真正的遏止這樣的情況出現所以剛剛部長是說的很好也很漂亮就是說破壞環境就是一種罪我相信部長也有這樣的決心但是事實上現在的寶島美麗寶島已經被許多的非法棄置集團變成垃圾島那我覺得這環境部也難辭其咎要盡速的去調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12075.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12081.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
所以我要進一步就問到比較具體的案例想要請問一下部長現在高雄的美濃大峽谷被罰了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12082.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12106.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這個地方正在偵查當中然後這種整個集團也在也在偵訊當中那未來他們要負責清理復原的工作部長我跟你說目前比較明確的是1430萬是然後業者呢最後僅以這個好像3萬10萬元交保好像不到10萬元交保那我想要問一下部長你知道這個利益有多龐大嗎倘若他這樣挖下去真的有廢棄物侵到在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12107.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12122.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
本席要不要算給你們看一下我們很清楚很清楚嘛對不對所以我在這裡也算一下給大家聽可能有些人不知道它這個地方6公頃然後呢深度20公尺的話它這個地方總共會有120萬立方公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12123.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12130.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那一立方公尺大概可以到1.5噸所以是180萬噸這個美濃大峽谷180萬噸的廢棄物那180萬噸如果每一台車大概是載10噸的話是18萬車次 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12141.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12147.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
18萬車次如果現在的費用最便宜是1萬啦比較貴是1萬5喔如果是1萬5的話是27億耶27億你還沒有算它的土方的價格它土方如果拿去賣120萬噸賣一個是800塊的話是9.6億喔這加起來將近是37億這是一個估算那這是一個估算喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12163.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12192.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以在這些東西裡面你可以看到他的這些非法所以部長這個殺頭的生意有人做賠錢生意沒人做所以你現在的法則跟這個東西你不覺得相差很大嗎所以我們再進一步說到了下一個另外一個場非法棄置案中的另外一個場犯罪集團仍然以偽造單據虛假QR code碼的掃描這些很低劣的手法躲過了監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12193.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12210.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
可以看到現在的科技執法工具的整合運用還有重大的漏洞所以包含剛剛你們說的這些行政院申請的專案當中最主要項目之一是擴大部件車輛的車牌辨識和e-tag系統所以其實這個東西現在看起來也不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12211.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12226.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
好像沒有成效很好而且另外廢棄物從生產端到清運端到處理端要做的這個即時幫襯申報目前環保團體也說目前流向追蹤仍然有很大的漏洞啊然後申報不實的行為通常也只被開罰6000元 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12228.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12255.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以比起剛剛算的這個巨大的不法利益裡面看起來是根本不痛不癢啊部長這部分是不是應該要改善裁罰的標準要去這次的法裡面你們要去精進對報告委員其實第一個你說的沒錯那個法部分我們會精進那另外一個呢是現在還在偵辦當中所以未來呢這個不法所得行為人的部分一定要把他追回來所以這個部分其實事實上是我們因為這個案子是我們抓到我們團隊抓到的可是你剛剛也說你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12256.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12272.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
不知道追不追得回來很多人脫產啦我們會努力啦你脫產啦因為現在他們很厲害很厲害啦所以我們是是沒錯他們也是日新月異可是你們好像一直跟不上這個部分要請部長不然這個事情會一直發生喔是一直一直的發生因為這個利益太龐大了沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12273.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12295.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
好 那部長 下一題 這個最後一題就是有關於城市採礦的政策今天這個題目還蠻重要的所以包含城市採礦的部分 其實台灣事實上放棄了很多機會對內來說呢 僅用手機的部分像日本已經建立了都市的礦山體系那單台回收手機就能提煉大概46公克的黃金 275公克的銀 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12298.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12327.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那台灣每一年每一年的市場上銷售540萬支手機回收率卻只有5.2%這部分是不是有點差太多有這個部分我們已經訂了一個規範從明年應該是明年開始就有訂出回收率的一個目標應該到20要不要說明一下各位報告因為就是那個手機是因為我們個人習慣的關係所以回收率其實各國會差不多那我們有定一個循環率 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12328.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12353.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
還有回收率那加起來要是明年會讓他提高一些標準簡單來講今天要問這一題很重要的原因是因為現在大家知道國際局勢的變化包含前陣子所謂的稀土靜止的問題所以你可以看到我們台灣的這個相關的半導體產業很多也是中小企業可能國際也缺乏規模供應鏈中下游也依賴進口所以一旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12354.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12373.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個大陸出口受限的話風險可能就直接轉到我們的台灣的產業裡面那每一年的我們的電子垃圾是超過6000萬噸那其中呢 蘊含大量的貴金屬跟稀土元素那這些價值其實跟傳統的礦藏相提並論所以這個部分是我們台灣很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12374.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12402.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
的新的戰略資源所以這部分就是說我們不應該是只有口號要請部長今天當然你的報告裡面有寫到相關的東西可是我認為還不是很具體所以包含你的評估到底有沒有完成的來源地然後替代性然後庫存天數的相關的風險評估跟預警還有到底需要多少你剛剛只是很快的帶過說這有關於國家戰略那這部分我想要請教一下部長這所謂的國家戰略到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12402.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12431.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
為什麼為什麼講的這麼要講成這樣因為其實現在這個我們也在觀察例如說我們跟有些國家國與國之間談的這個稀土未來這種像這樣的類似的合作我們都要列入評估那我們也要知道每個國家的戰略是什麼所以我們的確現在正在調查整合當中那這個裡面有的是有產業的那也有國與國的合作所以現在其實不方便說很多但另外一個呢是我們還有跟經濟部一起合作所以現在這是現在進行是也跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12431.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12454.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
如果真的涉及到這個國家安全戰略或相關的秘密當然你不用在這裡講但是我必須說的事情是不能用這個當作是一個空泛的理由因為稀土元素跟這個菇柏族的這個金屬相關的關鍵礦物在半導體製程裡面你剛有一個簡報比如說高階電子元件啊國防科技是不可或缺對不對但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12454.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12471.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
其實還有一個重要的就是技術的部分關於公研院這個針對這個女和嫡有計畫2026的計轉但是其他的元素呢國內有沒有回收廠商有技術可以做這個資源回收再利用其實目前看不到在報告裡面是看不到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12472.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12501.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
所以我本席擔心的是如果你們沒有真實的去調查去分析去評估然後我們到底需要什麼現在今天的報告就是一個淪為空泛的會變成是你說我用國家戰略所以現在不能講我們擔心的是不能有空泛的狀況因為每一個金屬都每一個金屬它的如何提煉回收都不一樣不是統一而定所以我們其實我們內部跟一些產業都談了很久是很複雜的東西所以沒有時間在這個委員會那個五分鐘可以報告完 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12502.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12525.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那希望到時候有機會再跟部長好好請益一下周耳的細節好不好你相關的細節可不可以提供給本辦辦公室我認為這是一個很重要因為現在才發現說原來現在台灣可能很多或甚至全球很多的半導體產業或國家才發現說原來這個這麼重要所以我們必須趕緊的跟上因為這也事關除了產業之外更重要是關於我們的國防安全謝謝部長謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12534.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12551.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好 謝謝廖偉強委員 那請我們下一位我們陳冠廷委員我們請環境部部長好 請環境部彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12555.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12576.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
部長今年環境部他針對旅宿用品公告一次性的用品限制那我也請教了我們這個觀光署的署長他們認為說這也是有必要要去調整去改進的因為他對觀光業的影響是非常大的那有很多民怨所以我要直接在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12578.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12585.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
來替我們所有的民眾跟這些旅宿業者來請命希望說一次性備品的機率必須要有調整部長你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12586.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12610.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
包委員 這個其實是一開始不習慣啦 不習慣但是我們自己統計過 我們也做過一個民調大概有將近七成多的民眾是支持的天啊 你這個民調是怎麼做的我們有問問誰 哪一個公司樣本多少你們做兩次民調 然後超過七成的人都同意這樣的做法但是我必須說你們的問題 問卷 我就很懷疑喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12611.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12637.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
這跟我們得到的所有的旅宿業者跟一般民眾的看法是完全天翻地覆的完全不一致的嘛我不知道你們是怎麼樣做的民調欸這是真的委託專業人士去做的民調哪一間公司嗎你這樣民調就跟當初高鐵說這一個高鐵公司也有做民調然後說80%以上的人都支持臨近車廂直到民眾反彈 新聞反彈然後他們說他們也有民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12638.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12658.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
其實包圍了任何的改變環保要這個其實全世界在歐洲優先持續這個署長部長我們一開始也跟你討論過我們之前也是很重視我們這個環境的問題包含快食上我們都很重視但是我們不要把這種東西把它歸咎給消費者讓他們要去做額外的負擔那我們現在講的這些你現在講這個一次性備品 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12660.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12685.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
現在很多這個業者 旅宿業者他們就不斷的在擴張這個一次性備品包含他們在販賣機就直接設在一樓最後你還是要去那邊一樓再買這一些不環保的東西嘛那有些國外的重要的貴賓來到台灣然後最後說因為他們住的這些飯店沒有這些一次性的備品所以他們走到樓下跑到便利商店買更昂貴的一次性備品 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12686.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12710.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
而且他們只用一次這些本來可以長期使用的這些牙刷 牙膏所有的備品他們就把它拿去用一次然後一樣丟在飯店的垃圾桶裡面所以這個事情是明明就已經出現跟民意有很大差別的地方我還是強調說如果這樣搞的話未來是不是航空公司比較長時間的旅程的話叫他們也不可以來去提供一次性的備品 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12711.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12726.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
再繼續擴張我們這樣不斷的擴張的時候沒有任何一個部門它的意志是可以超越其他的部門的我們同時也要跟交通部要跟觀光署去協調旅宿業者也不是只有消費者感到難過 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12727.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12743.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
旅出業者也覺得他們品牌壓力啊其他的國家同樣的品牌同樣的新等在台灣要付出的價格更多服務種類更少提供的備品也是更少的那你怎麼做他們的差異化怎麼樣做出他們服務差異化怎麼樣提高我們的國旅 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12744.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12763.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我的意思是說我們當然支持這樣的環保政策但是部長可不可以來思考一下有沒有辦法來找到一個同時平衡我國的觀光旅遊的平衡點可不可以試著去思考一下比方說不要用懲罰的方式可不可以用獎勵的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12764.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12791.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
在日本 大家很愛拿日本當例子但事實上日本的這些星級飯店或者是一般的飯店就是有提供有提供的時候他們提出來的這樣的一次性備品會付諸說他們減少了百分之比方說他們減少了百分之三十的排放量或者是說他們會說他們使用什麼樣的替代性的可持續性的這些原料來去做這些備品這些東西就是可以找出我們可以共生的這種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12793.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12807.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我一直都認為環境的政策是一步一步來的我們不必要一次性的來用這樣子環保至上之後然後來去把其他的可以發展的空間就把它限縮掉了部長可不可以簡單回應我們一下好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12809.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12838.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
環保就是我們的一個目標啦當然我同意委員的看法就是說大家改變的時候可能沒有那麼的習慣那這個部分我們會來檢討例如說在今年未來明年的話可不可以有一些配套的措施來獎勵來輔助這樣的一個措施不過因為整個像歐洲很多的國家或是其實我們有統計有數據很多的國家都已經這樣做了所以委員的建議我們會來做一個評估是不是可以在在這種獎勵上面能夠做一些鼓勵可不可以用獎勵來代替這種懲罰因為我看你們用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12839.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12855.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
其實懲罰現在的方式因為執行是在地方單位其實真的懲罰沒有那麼的多但是我們還是期待民眾可以自己帶這個要養成的確是要一兩年的時間我都是自己帶啦我先跟大家講說但我不會把我自己的價值觀強壓在其他的消費者身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12856.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12876.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我不覺得說我們要把我們自己的價值觀強壓在我們其他消費者上的原因就是說你也可以選擇不使用嘛你的背景就是你也可以選擇不使用為什麼一定要把自己的價值觀然後全部再強壓在其他人身上包委員那個不使用對旅館而言它還是丟掉還是造成一些很大的浪費所以基本上這個是多數國家它本來就有的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12876.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12905.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
但是韋爺你提的建議很好因為我們也看到有一些業者給我們一些不一樣的聲音我們也都聽到了我的建議還是一樣就不要一刀切你這旅宿業者有各種各樣的旅宿業者你喜歡說像日本他們有溫泉旅館他們有這種新級的酒店他們會有像這樣子這種會議型的這種旅館很多現在台灣的來台灣旅遊的國際旅客他不是只以純觀光旅遊為目的有些是因為參加會議你參加會議的時候將來把所有的備品都帶在身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12906.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12931.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那你要不要做一個區隔化支持 但是不可以這樣子一刀切全部全面都用同樣的方式來去對每一個旅宿業者你認為他們都serve同樣的目的沒有 有些是為了會議的有些為了觀光的有些是家庭旅遊的那家庭旅遊 你沒有備品你要叫他們已經要帶很多東西然後又要再準備更多東西來參加會議的 有些兩天一夜的你要叫他們再把東西全部帶準 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12933.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12954.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
來帶過來我提到的原因就是因為就真的是很多人在跟我們反映啊從民宿業者從觀光業者到一般民眾到外國的政要都覺得說這是一件很奇妙的事情為什麼一定要這樣謝謝委員那個環保的確是有一點不麻煩跟以前習慣不一樣但是這是正確走的路但是委員提到的是說我們是不是有一點修正然後鼓勵的方法我們會來研議好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12959.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12984.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
謝謝陳冠廷委員發言請圖全吉委員發言好謝謝主席那請我們環境部彭部長還有我們環關署的嚴署長請部長跟嚴署長圖偉偉好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12987.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13004.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
部長 那我們2050淨零是我們全世界目標也是我們台灣的目標嘛 對不對那我們在2022年有公布2050年淨零排放的路徑包含我們四大轉型還有兩大治理基礎那還有12項關鍵戰略這12項關鍵戰略部長應該都還記得嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13009.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13037.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那我們其中有一項是運具電動化及無碳化那我們當然知道針對這一部分是交通部在擬定可是我們看我們環境部也有針對低碳垃圾車這個計畫那我們低碳垃圾車的計畫基本上也是為了要降低空污那居然去做低碳垃圾車那為什麼不去做電動垃圾車 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13040.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13068.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
因為我有去看過幾個電動垃圾車他們的反應是說第一個是說過去是量比較少第二個是說它的里程比較少載重也會比較少所以目前我們有一個計畫的確是在事辦當中是不是請我們署長來說明一下跟委員報告低碳垃圾車為什麼不用直接跑到電動的因為電動的現在它的重量很重載的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13069.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13095.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
如果垃圾車載的垃圾多一點點就會不符合現在公路法規的要求現在還在努力以上對 據我們了解之前是應該欠缺營業需求車輛的電池的問題之前應該是電池技術的問題可是現在我們了解像荷蘭路特單還有越南順化甚至連我們高雄都已經都在市營業上路了 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13096.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13113.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那既然已經這個技術如果能夠突破那與其你現在花錢去做低碳垃圾車是不是應該要去規劃一下去做我們的電動垃圾車而且我們有運具電動化及無碳化這個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13113.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13136.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們在2025年的時候有針對公務車電動化那我們當然我們希望我們政府也來做表率嘛像我們公務車啦交通車甚至除了像我們這個電動垃圾車以外電動垃圾車它還有後面也有資源回收車那據我們了解全台灣的垃圾車大概有5500輛那加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13137.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13160.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
支援回收垃圾車那加起來等於是一萬多輛那而且我們垃圾車它是在大街小巷穿梭而且它是帶速那現在我們知道現在幾乎都是用柴油其實它這個空污是非常非常嚴重對於民眾還有清潔隊員其實我覺得這對他們也是很大的困擾也是很直接危害他們的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13162.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13184.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那是不是這部分我覺得應該現在如果技術上可以突破應該可以直接參考與其你現在花錢去補助低碳熱車車那是不是如果這技術可以突破應該儘早去規劃把這個直接做電動熱車車因為你低碳只是減少那電動幾乎是可以讓它到凌空屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13185.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13205.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
謝謝委員 這個我們會來考因為這個不斷的技術在進步啦如果有新的我們當然是歡迎那但是也跟委員報告因為未來的這個財化法之後這個所謂的這個垃圾處理是地方的事務那我們會盡量再多爭取一些計畫型的經費然後來跟地方合作是不是電動的垃圾車的部分可以比例可以把它加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13206.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13222.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
對那當然我也希望說因為這也是屬於環境部的業務那我們居然2050要去進齡那當然很多的地方要朝著這目標去前進是好那我們針對今天我們講的重點那 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13225.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13239.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我們目前因為中美稀土大戰開始以來那稀土已經成為全球高科技跟綠能產業的關鍵資源也是各國競相佈局的戰略焦點那對於稀土貴金屬的循環利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13240.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13254.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那部長之前有說規劃要成立四大金屬國家隊那我不知道針對我們稀土貴金屬的循環利用我們環境部現在有沒有擬定要怎麼樣子來達成各項指標這指標有沒有去擬定 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13256.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13271.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好 鮑偉現在還在彙整大家的意見因為這每一家每一家都是蠻特別蠻獨特的甚至已經有些上市的公司所以基本上每一家的需求不一樣而且每一種金屬它的這個深度跟廣度跟知識都很不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13272.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13294.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以我跟委員報告我們還在整合當中希望可以有一個花幾個月的時間把大家再匯集起來但是我們的確已經找到一群專門去做這種所謂的貴金屬的一個公司我們希望一起來合作來推動我們辦了一些活動大家都很有共識這個部分我們環境部會跟經濟部一起來推動這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13294.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13324.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
对 所以因为我们看部长从公布四大金属国家队之后我们发现有很多的稀有的贵金属这些资源并没有被列入所以可能应该要去盘点清楚一下像我们四大部分我看了一下我们是包含稀贵金属稀土资源 能源金属 单一金属那可是这四项四大类稀土贵金属在盘点之后我们发现像很多稀土贵金属都没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13324.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13336.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
列入像山 陰 老 地 壁 木 還有隙這些像我們在2019年經濟部有舉辦了一場亞太循環經濟論壇那裡面有成立了台灣循環經濟大聯盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13342.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13358.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那时候我们查了一下那时候惠元国有331家那其中有7家是锡柜金属的回收业者可是我们发现这7家回收业者他收的很多的锡柜金属好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13359.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13386.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
並不在我們環境部部長列的這幾項裡面是不是遺漏了包委員其實都有啦我只是沒有把廠商說出來所有的都露出來其實這個都在我們的雷達網裡面啦可是因為我們看你寫的並沒有列出來我們想說是不是這幾個重要的都沒有列到因為像我們台灣有一個唯一一家廠商他有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13388.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13398.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
收這個廢料就是那個我們汙化合物那我們去了解之後他所收的這個汙廢料來自我們台灣的只有5% |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13399.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13421.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那也就是說很多其他的這些污廢料因為它不需申報所以很多都賣到國外去啊那我們怎麼可以讓這些資源都流落到國外去那現在這麼重要的資源你看我們自己台灣的只收到5%很多的沒有申報那是不是這一部分我們是要怎麼樣去加強來管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13421.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13440.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
對 所以我們現在剛剛委員講到問題就是大多數的這個金屬都送到國外去了然後別人這個加工做得更好更有價值回來所以我們現在是希望都留在台灣所以我現在不斷的在跟大家因為每一個金屬委員其實這個你這邊列的就十幾種了我們自己掌握的大概二三十種 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13441.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13455.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那二三十種裡面呢其實都對應著不一樣的公司所以我們是一個一個談那因為每一個金屬它的技術門檻或是各方面的問題都不一樣所以我們現在會跟經濟部一起來合作把大家組起來確定之後再對外說 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13456.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13470.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
對啊 因為現在這個迫在眉梢尤其國內高科技這個發展非常需要這些稀土貴金屬那我們了解台灣目前針對稀土貴金屬應該是有三大困境一個體積小 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13472.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13490.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
再來精煉成本高還有回收率低所以現在部長應該要針對我們稀土貴金屬這些預期目標趕快去達成像它的法源還有設施技術等等是不是要盡快來整合趕快擬定避免我們這些資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13492.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13511.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
都流落到國外去這樣子我們這循環經濟這些循環資源反而都流落到國外去把我們這些重要資產都沒有好好把握住是 我們會來做 委員會來做好 那也希望說居然部長已經有提出這個方向我們希望讓我們趕快這些預期指標能夠盡快來完成像它的相關法源 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13513.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13538.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
設施 技術我們要趕快找這些回收業者來整合是 沒問題也希望委員多給我們這個指教到底我們有沒有遺漏的哪些公司或產業都歡迎委員可以多給我們一些意見對 因為既然部長有這樣講那我們提出你說你只能沒有把它列出來那我們希望說你居然有掌握有整合 有盤點清楚不要讓這些很多的稀有的貴金屬去流落到國外去好 沒問題好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13545.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13557.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
謝謝圖權級委員發言 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請彭部長還有農業部的次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13559.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13588.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
部長跟次長謝謝王委員好部長好部長我想先請教就是說從非洲豬瘟爆發到現在其實大家關心的就是儲雨處理後續怎麼去處理那昨天那個農業部的部長他有對外表示就是說原則就是儲雨原則禁止那有條件的開放有條件的開放那我想請教就是說其實在這個儲雨的前端是 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13589.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13611.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
環境部跟地方的環保局那到這個養豬場這後面就農業部在處理那我想請教就是說如果是有條件的開放那未來就像現在我們這一場發生非洲豬瘟的這個養豬場他也是沒有確實把這個資料上傳那未來是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13612.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13640.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
有什么样的方式能够更有效如果说有养猪场他确实也要用这个厨余来养猪的话那你们现在应该要去想到怎么样去有效的去监控如果这个养猪场如果像现在的话他只是传照片其实你自己原本也没办法去分辨他这个照片到底是什么时候的照片什么时候传你根本都不知道那是不是可以用比较及时 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13641.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13659.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
可能動態及時的這種監控的方式是不是做得到報告委員 這個我們已經都有攜帶我們的指引而且已經有找到解決方案了如果說農業部規範相關的規定因為裡面有第一個法規要修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13660.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13684.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
農業部的法規要修正我們都內部協調了第二個我們什麼時候可以完成目前我們都有找到相關的技術的可行性例如說CCTV直接看到有幾個蒸煮廠第二個是溫度的探針到煮槽裡面可以每一個小時每一分鐘都可以看得到它的量是不是煮了60分鐘有沒有90度所以這個部分我們如果可以即時監控的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13685.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13699.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
按照這個我們跟農業部的一個共識可能就可以開放珍珠不過這個還是要政策上的最後決定那現在呢我們就在等跟農業部跨部會在協調當中那我也必須透過委員這樣說其實除於珍珠不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13700.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13723.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
这个万恶不赦它是循环经济的一个一环那我们必须要肯定我们过去的这个厨余的处理的成本透过养猪的程序帮我们消化掉如果回到这个完全不要有厨余的话其实的确会增加很多餐厅还有我们家户的这个厨余的变成废弃物的一种成本所以我们也必须去考量所以后面的处理我们正在规划当中 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13724.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13741.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我希望就是說後面如果後續還有處於養豬的話我覺得監控這個真的非常重要就是說像爆發非洲豬瘟的養豬場其實它在4月份過後可能就不正常的傳輸你們根本也都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13741.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13756.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
可能地方的環保局他也沒有確實去掌握那如果地方政府沒辦法確實掌握那中央政府怎麼去管我是不是可以先請教部長如果地方譬如說這個養豬場由地方的環保局來監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13757.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13776.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那地方環保局如果沒有很確實去監控的話那中央政府這邊怎麼去知道包委員其實現在我們過去的制度是都有照片也知道日期所以那幾家沒有做得好的我們都有數據然後都通知地方環保局他們第一線去監控我們再去複查 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13776.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13799.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那未来呢像这样的话就是及时的所以我们环境部农业部跟地方环保局甚至猪农他都完全可以看到那个数据所以未来呢会是一个不是像这样有时间落差的地方政府看得到地方的环保局看得到然后中央可能你们这边某个单位也都看得到同一个资料平台就可以看到监控这个数据我就觉得这样就可以让大家心安 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13799.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13819.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
好那另外部長我也想請教就是說之前有提到就是統一的真主中心那未來這個政策會去推動嗎跟委員報告因為統一真主的這個部分那可能要是那個各縣市的他的這個規模那所以目前來說一般200頭以上的大型的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13821.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13839.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
租場的話他大概都是有自己的珍珠設備那所以我們可能就是透過剛剛彭部長所說的這種即時的CCTV包括溫度監控上傳的這樣的一個資訊還有修訂我們的這個法規相關那變成能夠即時監控然後可以落實的這個狀況之下才來繼續推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13841.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13861.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
如果說沒有到養豬場的也許還有一些廚餘你們後續這些要怎麼處理就是說我們可能各縣市有的廚餘它可能透過清潔隊有的就直接到養豬場有些可能沒有到養豬場像這樣子的話你們後續會怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13863.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13882.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
会直接进到焚化炉吗对没有其实现在进到焚化炉是不得已的做法因为这个其实除于是有生命其实是有价值的东西应该把它能源化堆肥化或是用黑水盲所以我们的确现在未来这几年会规划到底量能什么时候起来就是不要去送焚化炉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13883.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13897.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
因為送焚化爐其實浪費了浪費了也對於這個原來的垃圾也會造成很大的排擠所以我們現在正在規劃現在正在精密的算但是每個縣市不一樣像這個雲林它雖然說它不用廚餘未租可是雲林的 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13898.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13920.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
这个猪的厨余也是跑到彰化去啊所以就造成很大的负担那未来呢清洁的部分有可能会从过去的养猪场去收厨余未来会产生一些改变那这个改变呢现在我们正在协调当中未来可能会是一种专业的收厨余的团队在收厨余也有可能在做清理这个未来都有可能会发生 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13922.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13927.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
接下來我再請教養豬場也許自己收了廚餘收的廚餘可能吃不完就給其他的養豬場類似這樣的狀況或者是養豬場我上禮我這個禮拜也有特別問到有的比較小的養豬場 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13943.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13968.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那可能就是非常小場然後養了幾十隻那他就是收可能這個一般家戶的就是人家直接拿到這個養豬場外面就直接丟著就知道他有在用廚餘餵豬嘛那未來像這樣的狀況到底是可以或者是不可以委員現在是200頭以下都不可以200頭以上所以像委員講的那個情況問題是這個確實是存在的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13970.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13990.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
對 所以這個其實是未來是不允許的這個都是有罰則的目前是有罰則的所以其實就是說我們管控其實也不嚴格啦在200頭以下的這個禁止處理養豬的這個部分事實上我們在這個都有透過這個定期的查訪去做這樣的一個落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13992.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14007.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
好那你们说有确实那其实确实地方还是有这样的这种状况存在那最后我想请教这个农业部就是说原本是预计11月7号猪就可以开始拍卖 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14008.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14037.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
11月7號嘛對不對這個事情的話我們的統一步調就是由我們的這個中央非洲豬瘟的防災中心來做應變因為這個包括了很多綜合的判斷那就就這個要由這個我們的中央災害應變中心所以是今天下午才會公佈嗎是是是我全部都要看這個中央災害應變中心那邊的那如果因為有很多這個有一些縣市已經說11月7號有一些縣市已經說11月7號豬隻就可以開始拍賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14038.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14061.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
是不是這樣子這個部分的話必須要澄清因為我們這次的這個禁令是透過動傳法的這樣的一個限制那因為這個是屬於甲類的這樣的一個傳染動物傳染性疾病那它會擴及的這個範圍很大那所以基本上才會成立中央災害應變中心來處理這樣的一個問題所以基本上是不是開放這個部分一定是由中央災害應變中心來做公佈跟宣示 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14063.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14085.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那我想請教就是說如果就是按照原本的期程就是說11月7號如果啦如果還是按照原本的期程11月7號可以拍賣那原本在這個禁運的這當中有35萬頭至39萬頭的這些豬那一下子我不知道說到底要怎麼去消化或者是整個豬的價格會不會因此而崩盤 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14087.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14110.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
跟委員報告那事實上我們事實上有掌握到就是說在這個這個禁運的這個期間那事實上大概陳副委員所說的會有這樣的一個數量出來那所以我們也啟動了一些相關的這個機制比如說已經超過市場規格的這個豬的話優先進入屠宰場去做這樣的相關去化的這樣的處理那或者是收購那還有我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14113.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14138.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
每天能夠屠宰的量從本來平均的一天大概2萬多頭可能會提高到3萬多頭的這個部分那但是我們也不希望一次能夠太多出來因為這樣子也會造成價格的這個崩跌還是必須要看市場的需求啦所以這個部分我們都有掌握然後也透過了跟一些這個肉品工協會的這樣的一個聯繫希望能夠達到穩定租價也穩定這個供需這樣的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14139.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14162.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我在這邊可能也要建議一下就是說在禁運這當中有35到39萬頭豬那有的可能又吃了十幾天那個豬的那個重量又變大了那當然這些豬農他們會希望趕快把它賣出去所以我希望就是說農業部這邊應該也要找通路商還有可能一些冷凍 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14163.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14191.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
就是可以先把這些比較重的這些豬應該可以先拍賣然後冷凍起來我覺得應該可以透過這樣的機制來處理是 謝謝委員我們有往這個方向再考慮跟處理好 那我希望說不要有這種讓豬農覺得說這個會有崩盤的這種狀況出現所以我希望農業部可能要即時即使如果有類似這樣的狀況真的要去協調通路商趕快把這個問題解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14197.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14211.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
謝謝黃秀芳委員發言請洪孟楷委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14214.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14231.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
侯委員好部長好部長感謝今天召委特別排這樣的一個案件其實本席也都非常關注那我先請教一下資源循環推動法跟廢棄物清理法有已經5月的時候就公告說要修法了嘛那到目前為止半年的進度過去了是不是再update一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14231.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14250.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
什麼時候會來提出我們環境部的版本現在在行政院的院內在審議當中那我們是希望就是有共識啦希望這個會期就看能不能一兩個月但是因為那個法案逐條跨部會的還在審議當中所以我們希望盡快是不是11月底或是12月趕快送進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14251.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14266.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
11月底12月有信心可以出行政院應該有因為現在這個不管是院長或是總統都有說要加快這個速度因為其實本席也好或說我們這個很多大家其實都看的就是這兩個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14267.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14287.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
廢棄物清理其實也有一些營建業一直叫苦連天講是說那相關的土方他也很想找合法的清道清理但是就沒有辦法有這個消化的量那其實某種程度上資源循環推動法跟廢棄物清理法一個是胡蘿蔔一個是棍子我們等於是說也有開放胡蘿蔔的空間但也有棍子更加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14289.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14296.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
越非法的越要加強來取締但是我們也要有提供管道來去做一個運作所以11月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14297.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14322.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我們是希望因為本席也希望是說能夠在這個會議我們至少能夠拜託召委如果說真的有進來的話我們也可以來排案來討論共同來討論能夠延伸大家才能夠往前走我們會加快因為這陣子我們的負責的政委其實都在救災不然就重建所以我們也跑來跑去所以我們是期待是加快就是希望速度可以快一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14322.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14340.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
因為畢竟也已經半年了嘛從5月底的公告兩個月完了之後再去做修正收集資料再做修正到現在其實半年過去本席會期待那也希望部長能夠加速好不好 能夠push一下那另外再來拉回來就是剛剛也有很多委員就關心到廚餘的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14342.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14369.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
2017年其實行政院那時候的環保署就有提出一個叫做多元化垃圾處理計畫5年的期程花了150億的公帑有中央有地方但當時會希望是說做不管是垃圾焚化爐的升級或者是深植能源廠的一個部分那其實這深植能源廠某種程度上也是一個方向就是資源回收再利用本席認同您剛剛講法就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14370.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14394.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
廚餘它其實是飼料化 肥料化 能源化它是可利用的東西那只是我們現在沒有地方去放所以說我們就變成是要餵豬要等等的部分但最終的狀況我們期待是說把廚餘變成是能源 飼料或是堆肥那到目前為止你說2017年的這個多元化垃圾處理計畫也只有台中跟桃園兩座生殖能電廠在運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14396.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14404.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
那如果說我們接下來這次非洲豬瘟風波過去我們還是要面臨到處於怎麼樣來做有效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14406.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14429.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
處理運用來 部長好 報告委員因為我有聊因為那時候我沒有在行政團隊但是我有了解其實這個最大的問題是說當廚餘可以未租那個成本是很低的所以基本上就不會進到這個生殖能的一個體系裡面如果這一次大家有國人有這個決心或是社會有這個共識的話這個速度就會加快而且據我所知有些廠要設的時候廠長會變成零幣設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14431.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14450.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
大家喜歡跑去廚藝但是廚藝廠不要在我家旁邊所以這次我希望說因為我們一個縣市一個縣市有在溝通你們有沒有地方要做的我們來想辦法一起來公私協力來合作中央跟地方一起合作現在都有在談這個事情是 但當然是因為黎病社是一定會有它的一個困難點也因此通常這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14451.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14473.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
地點可能就要由地方政府來協助找可能相對人員稀少還有就是說有一些回饋機制可是我覺得重點還是在於是中央的計畫要出來當中央的計畫有出來願意要做這件事情因為其實我們在這一次廚餘的非洲豬瘟在爆發之後大家也都看到真的你說養豬使用廚餘的部分其實占不到10% |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14476.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14495.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
對不對養豬再用廚藝很高6成整個6成你說總體的6成就是豬大概8%而已豬吃廚藝就8%豬吃廚藝8%嘛8%吃掉我們台灣所有廚藝的6成但是本席也看到了這個有所謂的一個盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14497.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14525.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
環境部這邊來做一個廚餘的盤點其實每天要處理的廚餘的數量其實還是有幾百公噸的一個缺口也因此才會要去做這個焚化那現在即便是依照過去的狀況都還有500噸那如果說在這一次過去之後大家也都有期待就是那我們能不能說往更前面邁進那就變成是說你每天至少有上千噸的廚餘其實是要處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14526.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14546.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那怎麼樣把這些資源循環再利用我覺得這就變成是說環境部就要有一個上位計畫出來跟地方政府來溝通那以及你要編列相關的預算來才有辦法做進一步的運行嘛對 現在就在做這個事情我們已經在跟地方政府在溝通因為每個地方政府都遇到廚藝去化的挑戰啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14546.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14564.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
有些縣市沒有問題有些縣市是挑戰所以我們現在就是說我們是不是到底要兩年或三年我們的廚餘去化可以得到一個更好的解決我們正在規劃當中也希望趕快對外公布部長什麼時候計畫可以出來因為現在還在因為其實這個廚餘的產生其實也跟人口數有息息相關對 一定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14565.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14579.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
人口數地方大都會一定相對產生的廚餘會比較多嘛這也沒有辦法這就是你要居住 你要食用你就會有這樣的一個狀況但我們要怎麼樣面對問題解決問題所以我以為這有兩個問題一個是我們的養豬場的廚餘什麼時候轉型一個是我們的這個量能什麼時候夠這兩邊是一個動態式 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14586.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14603.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
在處理 是那我們是希望未來是不是有一個落日的是一個時間但是這個時間我們的還沒有辦法馬上的去算出來因為這個算出來之後要去執行也需要地方來配合地方政府來配合所以我們現在都在研究在討論當中希望趕快可以有等於是說你自己目標會希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14604.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14629.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
我們是希望或許是年底之前有一個更好的一個方案出來但是這個還是要找到地方因為那個地方還是要設置設置還是要地方政府願意扛下來我們來一起合作來做是啦 部長但是本席現在提的因為你看明年環境部的預算已經編列了是是沒有把這個計畫放進來嗎沒有 沒有 這都新的東西對 所以說即便是你兩個月以內能夠有初步的草案計畫來找地方政府來溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14630.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14650.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
那你也真的要落實或說真的要執行也可能要到後年以後你才有辦法用這樣的一個方案來去請地方政府共同配合但不管怎麼樣這一條路如果說確實要做的話該溝通的成本以及該要去做的部分總是要先起頭也因此你剛剛有提到今年年底可能這個方案可以出來然後再找地方政府來溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14651.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14679.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
如果說有意願配合的部分可以再加速進行但是編列明年環境部的預算後年開始執行報告委員因為這個如果要設置現在很少有政府完全獨立出資一定會用一些促餐的一個方式來做處理那促餐的話我們政府負擔的費用就會少一點所以這個目前都在規劃當中那我們的當然是希望能夠多一點預算會比較好做 是會比較快所以這個部分到時候也希望委員可以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14679.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14703.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
因為公部門要做事就兩件事嘛要嘛是單位誰負責要嘛就是預算有沒有編列嘛沒有單位誰負責沒有預算編列你跟我講要做都是假的是不是也因此本期才是從一開始2017年有一個五年計畫一直延伸到現在那是不是要再針對這個部分要再做另外一個不管是三年計畫五年計畫但你總是要把方案提出來大家才可以共同討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14704.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14712.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
本席會再針對這個問題來繼續救教好不好但我希望部長剛剛有提到就至少兩個月內要把方案給提出來我們會盡快 謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員發言請陳寅委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14731.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14755.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
謝主席麻煩請環境部部長跟環管署署長請部長跟署長陳委員好部長好那今天召委安排這個從非法棄置到城市採礦的這個專題報告我也參考了你們的書面報告因為我發現在這個短短八頁不到裡面大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14756.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14776.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
大概非法企制的部分占了9成那你们对于这个城市采矿的部分大概只有占了10%而已那我不太清楚说这个是不是赵伟的本意就是说在这个比例上你们怎么去决定这样子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14779.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14800.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
兩個其實是在討論兩件事有價值的回收資源跟沒有價值的廢棄物被非法棄置的問題鵝鮑偉我解釋一下因為我這邊有用一個其實我們非法棄置最大的就是營建剩餘土石方營建剩餘土石方如果更好的循環它也是一種城市採礦 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14801.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14818.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
所以其實我們這個裡面花很多時間其實有一張圖是特別講說它怎麼去循環到土地市場等等如果我們建構了起來就是城市採礦起來的話就沒有營建廢棄物的問題因為我們上網也是都可以看到這個書面報告所以只是提醒一下這個比例上我們會誤以為 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14821.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14841.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
是不是召委给你们的指示是这样那我要先请教部长就是说你是否知道在2020年的这个东京奥运的这个奖牌是由这个回收的手机制作的这是象征这个城市矿山的理念吗算是吧这也是一种这个循环在利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14842.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14868.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
好那針對這個有價台灣手機或者3C產品台灣回收的這個業者你覺得他們再生利用的技術好不好那回收之後最終產物是什麼最終產物的話手機回收就有不一樣的金屬來源例如說像有的是手機回收可以製作屋出來提煉出屋出來不一樣的不一樣的內容好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14868.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14887.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
就說舉例啦那個日本的回收技術其實應該是目前看起來是優於台灣嘛那還是說那回收過程有沒有產生這個污染或公安的問題不管是日本或者是台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14888.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14905.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我看过就是说我看过一些欧洲的一些垃圾或资源回收处理厂有爆炸的事情燃烧的事情我问他是什么手机手机里面的锂电池所以的确是有一些的确有一些可能衍生的公安问题会出现如果处理不好的话 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14906.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14926.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我想部長有這樣提到表示你們基本上對於這些問題都有一些基本的掌握那上次對於這個光電板的回收那本席也曾經提過說如果國外有更先進的技術想要進來台灣投資往往是很困難因為他們要先取得這個廢棄物處理廠的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14930.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14958.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
而這個廢棄物處理的是沒有價值或者是低價值的一般廢棄物那這等於是說去限制了這個先進技術可以直接高端回收的高價值資源的這個途徑是很可惜那我覺得說你們在的確是有很多的很多去國外考察先進資源回收的跟這個管理的觀念那重點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14960.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14986.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
在出國回來你們去看了回來就要整理好報告然後又趕快有動作然後再趕快把它轉化成有用的計畫或者是政策不應該只是說去看一看回來消息很消極就沒有其他作為這樣子會拘泥說你們可能會變成永遠都是在這個法規範圍內去做管理的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14988.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15013.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
因為不是只有管理就好如果是這樣可能就是很辜負了你們升格為環境部的這個意義了部長你們在升格之後在資源循環跟環境管理方面的法令大概就是你們修訂了幾條還是說只是有都是繼續沿用環保署時代的訂定的法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15013.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15039.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
報告委我們如果兩個數的話就是資源循環的推動法然後另外一個就是費刑法這兩個就是我們這兩年來送進來準備要送進來的法令所以好那未來在這個高階3C的產品的資源回收跟這個城市採礦的理念上會不會有這個修法或者是研擬新法令的計畫呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15040.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15055.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
目前我們是在這個資源循環推動法裡面有一些設計綠色設計或是說整個獎勵補助的一個或是說資源循環的這個路徑上面能夠再加強的地方是在資源循環的推動法裡面的確是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15056.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15081.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
好 那畢竟就是在這個現有的法令架構之下其實召委都覺得說你們這個非法氣質跟這個環境管理的執法上都已經有出現這個痛點的問題這表示說相關的法令可能有不足的地方所以資源循環應該是可以再更有效率一點最重要的是說我們也還是要跟國際接軌那 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15085.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15106.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
部長您覺得就是說在之前啦過去你還沒有擔任部長之前曾經有多次出席在國際上的這些重要的這個環境議題的會議那代表國家發聲在維基百科上也都有詳細的介紹跟還有帥氣的照片謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15107.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15131.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
在我相信就是說台灣其實就需要像您這樣有具有國際觀的部會首長來帶領我們台灣在各種議題上能夠就是說在我們國際這個大舞台發光發熱那您現在當部長了我相信也可以讓所有就是說所屬的高階文官可以有一起進步的格局 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15132.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15159.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
那支持讓支持他們出國多去看利用這個開放新技術跟新資源的觀念來解決我們台灣面臨的這些環境的問題我想我不曉得部長是不是有同意本席的建議在提升我們資源循環跟環境管理的議題上盡量可以接軌國際然後採取這個逐步開放的這個有效的這個政策規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15160.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15181.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我非常同意也報告委員我在民間的時候是一個月出國一兩次現在一年頂多只能一次所以很可憐所以我是鼓勵我們同仁這個能夠多出去多接軌所以像剛剛委員提到說是不是有一些國外的這種好的公司到臺灣我們幫他排擠出這種環保的法規因為我們有些是蠻硬的蠻死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15181.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15200.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
所以我們未來也可以考慮說國外好的公司進來台灣的時候我們有一個專業的一個如果他是環保好的公司我們應該開放讓他進來產生這種碾漁的效益所以我們現在現行一些設計的這些規範可能就要做一些調整了不然就真的很可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15201.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15228.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那最後本席想要強調就是說資源循環做得好環境管理負擔少那其實那個意思也就是賴盈盈做得好顏旭敏負擔就少那我現在我就很想請教我想請教我們的我們的顏署長那個你覺得你現在負擔多還是少呢報告委員我覺得我現在負擔剛剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15234.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15246.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我相信你負擔還是很大的啦但是賴銀營署長還是做得不錯的啦至少起碼那個賴署長也很認真而且他也蠻 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15247.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15267.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
就是蠻靈活的 在福祉產業上其實剛剛我講的幾個點其實都有朝這個方向在在邁進 那我們知道你很辛苦因為一站上來我剛差一點看不到你的臉雖然你站在燈光下真的你去災區真的待很久然後曬得很黑也辛苦你了那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15270.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15290.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
兩位賴署長可以請回座管理是一項成本資源強調的是一種價值所以任何的廢棄物都可以視為資源關鍵是說我們在於轉化的成本高低的問題廢手機 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15293.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15310.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
既然可以作为这个奥运奖牌很多的资源也可以转为这个扶植地方产业的这个经济支柱那我想在这个过程当中我有看到赖署长有在朝这个方向来努力我觉得那个是很棒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15310.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15336.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
那我想我們我之前我有提過就是說以台東縣為例本身就有這個獎勵投資相關產業的法規那在這個環境資源回收提供的技術跟物資的支持下如果協助台東的漁船或者這個觀光休閒娛樂船以免費或補助的這個加裝使用回收光電板讓這些船 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15338.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15353.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
可以獲得更多的電力資源然後轉化這個動力減少燒油產生的廢氣我相信有許多漁民跟在地的民眾也會感謝環境部的這個德政你們可以參考看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15353.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15382.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
委員 這個概念非常好我們會來研議一下就是如何用回收的然後幫助漁民那也跟委員報告因為我們最近有算出來一個臺灣的循環經濟的產值是1688億去年然後大概有10萬的就業人口那我們也發現說其實這個很適合例如說像臺東可以發展起來所以這個部分如果未來循環經濟我是覺得循環經濟跟觀光一樣是一個蠻好的一個產業我們可以一起努力來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15383.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15392.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
但我想一個大前提就是說台東畢竟它還是一個觀光大縣那我們能夠賣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15394.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15417.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
是我們的自然景觀那這個大原則就是我們不要在我們在做一些就是說不管是資源的回收的再利用或者是一些能源上的開發我們都不應該去破壞那個自然景觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15418.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15433.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我想這個是一個很重要的大前提那所以我相信只要部長支持那整個資源循環的產業可以主動扶持很多地方的這個產業的發展那這些需要你們了解回收技術跟回收產品的應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15434.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15452.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
那針對可以幫助地方產業的這個回收業者也期待你們可以給予更多的支持跟鼓勵我想這樣的呼籲環境部你們是不是能夠思考並且提出一個具體的規劃好沒問題好謝謝謝謝兩位謝謝謝謝陳寅委員發言來鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15464.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15480.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
顏寬恆委員 顏寬恆委員 顏寬恆委員不在接著我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長楊委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15486.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15513.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
是 部長好那我們今天來討論這個概念城市採礦城市採礦是指回收城市老舊建築物拆除後踢壓 擋 尖 岩等資源跟電子資訊產品中的西貴金屬讓整個資源它轉化成另外一個商品那由於我們呢 我國也缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15513.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15543.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
也非常的缺乏天然的礦產如果說可以從城市廢棄物當中可以獲得了很多的資源物資像手機的面板它含有稀有的金屬電腦的零件裡頭甚至還有黃金電腦零件裡頭以我國的製造業所需要的稀土礦物為例我們如果利用城市採礦它可以將稀土再提煉回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15544.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15561.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
但是城市採光目前它存在的還是有一些爭議相轉的可行性以及提煉純度跟它的設備能否到位還有化學處理可能會造成環境的衝擊跟你環評的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15563.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15577.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
所以目前政府本需要請教也就是針對於城市採礦的立場你的態度是什麼那你又認為對於環境的影響是正面還是負面有哪些 請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15578.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15601.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
謝謝委員 城市採礦應該有兩個意涵例如說我們現在在都更這個舊房子拆掉 很多的廢棄物如果沒有很好處理就亂倒亂丟 亂買所以這個部分如果處理的好有土質廠或分類廠或是廢棄物的處理廠它其實可以幫另外一棟建築做更好的運用那委員提到的是說一些貴金屬那個其實例如說從電腦或是各種的廢棄的舊的能夠再提煉出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15604.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15630.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那目前的確它的過程當中有很多化學產生那的確是有一些問題但是問題是說我們現在我們看到新的公司它都很環保我們以前這個城市採礦像二人溪的這個電子飛機就是城市採礦可是造成我們這個到現在為止沒有辦法處理的問題所以我們現在要的不是那種是新型態的那目前有幾家的很好的公司它已經都上市了它也都符合各種新型態的環保法規我們是鼓勵這樣這種型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15632.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15660.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
這個就是本席一開頭運用了一分鐘多的時間來跟你說明這個背景因為我們也不希望會影響到這個環境的一個影響度但是目前全世界開始也有已經成功的範例所以如果我們可以結合這個整個規模化還有跟國際來合作這樣子的一個政策方向本席認為你們必須要去採 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15663.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15682.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
這個全世界各國有哪些成功的這樣子的範例因為我們一定是一個國際的國家所以這是非常重要可以等於也可以降低降低我們未來進口的這個礦產當然這是剛開始所以剛開始的時候我們整個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15683.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15709.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
跟部件必須要完善那除了我們自己專家學者的一個探討本席也具體建議針對於全世界各國城市採礦的這個部分已經有成功案例的我們一定要多吸取這些寶貴的經驗將這些經驗納到我們台灣來是不是可行做一個好好的一個研討也就是本席所說的這個規模化這非常重要您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15710.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15725.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
我非常同意所以等於是說國際的接軌例如說我們看到最近美國跟日本簽了一個稀土的這個協議其實就把委員你說的內涵都有涵蓋在裡面我非常贊同委員的看法那你要去執行之我想全世界的寶貴的經驗我們趕快吸引進來那接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15731.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15749.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
本席要跟你討論的因為上個禮拜國家氣候變遷在委員會第五次的委員會議當中您在會後也跟了記者說減碳不是只有中央政府的責任總統也說了未來要訂出縣市政府必須負擔的減碳額度 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15752.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15779.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那環境部會積極跟地方來研議這個目標甚至是高溫或者是氣候的一個調適地方政府也應該要有目標所以本學要請教你要怎麼樣去訂定資是您訂嗎還是地方訂還是誰訂呢這個數額這個第一個第二個如何去協調跟地方如何來做溝通協調因為每個縣市的樣他也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15782.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15797.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
謝謝委員這個是很多的委員提出因為我們這個花了一年多的時間訂了一個減碳目標他說不是只有中央做地方也要一起做所以很多委員提了所以總統就做的才是要我來規劃研究要跟地方要訂出地方可以達到的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15798.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15823.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
那目前呢很多的地方像台中他都有定一些減碳的目標都非常的好那未來呢就是要落實查核甚至說未來假設我們有些減碳的一個政府的計畫性補助的計畫我們就可以進行這個連結做的好的可以補助更多我們就獎勵所以這個目前在研議當中你目前研議當中那你有沒有這個方向你的KPI大概是多久會跟地方的縣市政府去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15824.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15851.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
出来这个方向什么时候可以给国人报告应该是要到明年因为现在这个第一个是采化粉分了之后这些的工作所以你刚才说了就是明年你们预估会跟就这段时间跟地方政府来讨论那大概是在明年会定出各县市政府他的额度到底是多少如何的去协助地方政府是不是是没错谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15854.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15875.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
謝謝楊純英委員發言何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席主席請教彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15878.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15888.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
楊委員好 部長我們今天還是要探討一下廢棄物清運業者跑空單的問題不過先講齁 就是我剛剛聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15889.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15908.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
您在答覆楊瓊瑩委員的時候講了一句台中市做得很好我覺得態度就是應該這樣子中央跟地方其實是一個合作的關係有不足的我們就把資源給那做不好當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15909.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15936.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
為了責任的釐清我們必須要講出來責任歸屬是地方而地方做得好的部分其實我倒是剛剛在座位聽到部長這樣子回答我覺得很好政治就應該這樣子就是我剛剛有講我們要探討跑空單的問題就是說合法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15939.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15966.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
車輛在載運廢棄物的時候有裝有GPS然後呢他這件事情大概就是有GPS的車輛照跑然後沒有載運是不是就是把GPS放在摩托車上面摩托車跑進去車子跑到別的地方去是這樣子啊有這樣的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15968.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15993.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那我問一下 摩托車跑進去對置場 這個查不出來嗎我們有發現 有發現這樣多久才發現因為假如是都是一般的卡車可能會有的時候會比較不注意那假如是像機車這種應該很容易發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15995.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16021.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
對就是說有跟委員報告其實未來我們未來要結合CCTV整個全台灣的CCTV跟GPS還有e-tag整個要合在一起變成為了這個事情因為這個警政單位是抓犯人那我們是抓非法棄置所以我們現在明年開始就要來做這個事情不是我剛才是問說他假如是用機車多久可以你們多久會發現這種違規 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16025.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16039.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
這個我們很會抓的組長因為這個事情還蠻離譜的我以為都是卡車進出可能比較沒有那麼容易發現那假如也有機車的情況應該是很快發現才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16040.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16068.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
是保護員其實他有很多種樣態有汽車也有汽車然後甚至也有是那種叫做我們我們會把它叫做小蜜蜂所以其實很多樣態但是我們大概都有抓過都有抓過對我現在的意思是說假如他是卡車對卡車卡車進出對置場是比較合理對不對那 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16070.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16098.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
摩托車這樣子不會很容易發現嗎包委員我們在抓這個犯罪行為的時候大部分都是從他們場內自行的監控系統或從內外帳這邊查到的如果要實質我們自己去查可能不是很容易我現在不是說你們查譬如說這個部分是堆置場的人查嗎還是地方政府查 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16099.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16120.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
不是你們查那誰查主要是因為我們現在大概都是透過檢檢環聯合查緝的平台才能夠查到這種違規行為所以就是不是常態性的監控可以看出來的必須要聯合稽查的時候將來如果自衛委員會建廠的時候就比較有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16123.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16144.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我有聽同仁跟我報告過就是說他們是有同仁會用AI的方式去算撈出來但是那個都要人 都需要時間都是要人工現在他們是希望現在有在加快把導入AI之後有加快我們希望把它加快而且未來如果明年開始有這個計畫的話更無縫接軌抓的速度會更快剛剛有回答說 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16146.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16172.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
假如AI智慧維尼系統建置以後就比較容易抓到對不對那現在我們已經有建置在2023年就建置11處那這一次發生事件的新北跟桃園有已經建置了嗎11處有沒有在這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16174.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16177.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這一次新北那個應該是三年前的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16179.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16207.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
就是還沒有建置之前 對…但是實際上因為它我們有很多判斷的依據就是那個地方為什麼進出比較平凡或者是奇怪我們就會去看剛才組長特別提到我們進去看的時候整個進去會整個把它扣押函它的所有攝影機我們再把它回溯去調查這件事情才發現有的是車子 有的是機車等 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16209.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16220.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
所以有一些案例其實是三年前的那回算三年前就是我們AI智慧維理還沒有設置完成是 目前的智慧維理 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16223.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16247.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
這個講也沒有關係大概是在比較中南部不方便講的就不要講現在大概以中南部的建制比較早一點不過我看資料我們在明年大概會花23.5億來明年大概5億23.5億是4年是總TOTAL |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16250.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16274.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那所以 並不是明年就可以建置完全台灣並不是 但是明年開始我們廢墟清理法裡面第十條之一有把這個我們可以將警政系統及其他交通部的e-tag整合進來其實那個量也瞬間會是很大的可以整合進來是不是那我這裡剛好有一個疑問就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16277.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16284.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
署長剛剛講的是整合嘛我問一下為什麼沒有辦法利用它現有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16285.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16308.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
你懂我的意思嗎因為整個公路體系應該都有ETEC跟車牌辨識的系統為什麼我們沒有辦法直接現在是因為個資法的關係所以個資法如果我們要運用的話就要有法令的依據所以我們在修廢清法的時候就把這個我們可以去用這一些資料把它修到裡面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16309.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16315.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我們以後還是可以用公路體系的資料可是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16316.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16345.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
他監控的範圍跟角度跟我們不一樣是不是這樣子所以我們才要另外花錢嘛要不然我們就利用他現有的嘛是這樣子嗎大家功能不同的教他比對我們會發展一個AI的智慧判試的一個邏輯出來好 時間的關係我最後問一個因為手機齁我直接問署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16349.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16371.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
問部長 環境部在什麼時候提出手機回收的獎勵金跟擴大回收管道就是要公告的話應該是明年開始有要求他們循環率要15%所以獎金的制度是明年才開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16371.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16380.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
不過這個部分不一定有獎金我們是規定回收那如果是要回收或許業者他會提供一些回饋為什麼這麼重視這個問題呢就是因為我們的回收率真的太低了12%而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16389.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16410.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
是不是 對百分之十二就是表示每一年我們假如說銷售五百萬部手機就有大概有三百八十萬支手機是沒有回收在利用因為是這樣子 有回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16411.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16431.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
才有再利用的可能而且手機再利用的價值跟各面向都是很重要的事情所以我想這個也是為什麼今天特別必須要提出要討論城市採礦的問題我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16439.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16450.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
我們不要把可以採的礦 讓它丟掉這個我想是部裡面的責任 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊耀文委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16452.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16474.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
謝謝部長 鍾嘉賓委員 鍾嘉賓委員 鍾嘉賓委員不在鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員不在那本日會議詢答全部結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16475.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16494.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
委員盧憲一所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16495.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16513.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
專題報告議程到此結束現在休息下午2點在本會議室進行噪音管制法第二條26條及第28條條文修正草案計12案之逐條討論非法案相關列席人員可先行離席現在休息 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16526.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16534.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
謝謝觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
19864.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
19886.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
來現在繼續開會首先介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭資委員盧憲一委員林月琴委員王振旭委員張志倫委員牛許廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
19889.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
19915.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
還有列席官員有我們環境部部長彭啟明部長大氣環境司司長黃偉明司長交通部公共運輸及監理司檢任計政蔡清風公路局監理組副組長黃明生經濟部標準檢驗局檢任計政陳榮富產業發展署科長陳慶輝 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
19918.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
19934.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
內政部警政署交通組副組長黃毅三法務部法治司副司長林黛麗那請議事人員宣讀本次新增提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
19937.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
19961.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
噪音管制法第二條第26條及第28條條文修正草案委員賴銳龍等16人委員陳亭飛等16人委員張志倫等17人委員王玉敏等24人台灣民眾黨黨團委員黃健廷等19人委員牛許廷等25人委員羅明采等20人委員羅廷威等17人委員林倩琦等16人委員侯孟凱等16人委員廖偉祥等16人現行法條文對照表 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
19962.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
19992.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
委員牛許廷等二十五人 委員廖偉祥等十六人提案第二條修正第二句為在中央為環境部予以現行法同第二十六條委員賴瑞榮等十六人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上一萬元一萬五千元以下增列第二項及第三項如下前項機動車輛所有人完成改善後五年內在違反第十一條第一項鎖定標準者其罰還加重二分之一三次以上者加重一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
19992.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
20012.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
夜間違反第一項者其罰還加重二分之一並當場禁止駕駛予以現行法同委員陳廷飛等16人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣2400元以上7200元以下並修正莫具為案次處加重二分之一罰還予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
20012.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
20035.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
委員張志倫等17人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣6千元以上3萬元以下增列第二項如下前項累犯情節嚴重者比照交通違規據點違規據點達一定點數應移送監理機關調控花壺銷牌照據點辦法由主管機關會同交通部定之予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
20036.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
20053.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
委員王玉明等24人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣3600元以上18000元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於夜間或特定噪音管制區發生者得加重其罰還至二分之一予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
20054.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
20071.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上三萬元以下增列第二項如下於深夜或特定噪音管制區違反前項者加重罰還至新台幣六千元以上六萬元以下並得當場一致保管該機動車輛予以現行罰同 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
20074.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
20090.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
委員黃建豪等19人抵押修正第一項罰款金額為新台幣6千元以上1萬2千元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者因移送監理機關調扣其駕駛執照6個月予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
20091.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
20105.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
委員牛許廷等25人提案修正第一項文字罰還逗號後面之文字為並責令其於7日內改善完畢藉其仍未完成改善者處新台幣3600元以上7200元以下罰還處應案次處罰外 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
20109.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
20137.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
並得以請公路監理機關註銷其牌照增列第二項如下三年內二次違反前項規定者應命其接受二小時環境講習三年內違反前項規定三次以上者應命其接受四小時以上十小時以下環境講習並以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月及公布其姓名照片及違法事實予以現行法同委員羅明才等二十人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
20137.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
20152.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千六百元以上三萬六千元以下增列第二項如下前項清新於一年內再度違反者得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
20154.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
20179.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案修正第二項第二據為於一年內違反二次者予以委員羅明才等20人提案同委員林倩琦等16人提案第一項據莫增列逗號並得調後其汽車牌照增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者調扣其駕駛執照6個月予以委員羅明才等20人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
20180.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
20207.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
委員洪孟開等16人提案第一項後段如下藉其仍未完成改善者除案次處罰外並得調扣其汽車牌照予以臺灣民眾黨黨團第一項提案同增列第二項及第三項如下予業間或噪音管制區違反前項者得加重其罰還至二分之一第一項情形於一年內違反二次者調扣其駕駛執照一年駕駛執照一年予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
20208.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
20225.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
委員廖偉祥等十六人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上二萬元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於夜間或特定或特定噪音管制區發生者得加重其罰還至二分之一予以現行罰同 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
20226.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
20248.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
第二十八條委員賴瑞龍等十六人提案修正罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上一萬五千元以下予以現行法同委員陳廷飛等十六人提案修正罰還金額為新台幣一萬元以上十萬元以下及修正據莫莫具為按次處加重二分之一罰還予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
20249.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
20261.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
委員張志倫等17人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣6,000元以上3萬元以下增列第二項如下前項累犯情節嚴重者比照交通違規據點違規據點達一定點數應移送監理機關調扣刮鬍銷牌照 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
20269.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
20285.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
祭典办法由主管机关会同交通部定之予以现行法同委员王玉明等24人提案修正罚还金额为新台币6000元以上36000元以下予以现行法同台湾民众党党团提案修正罚还金额为 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
20286.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
20307.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
新台幣六千元以上六萬元以下予以現行法同委員黃建豪等十九人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣六千元以上一萬二千元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者因移送監理機關調扣其駕駛執照六個月予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
20307.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
20324.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
委員羅明財等二十人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千六百元以上三萬六千元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者得依請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月予以先行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
20325.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
20351.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
委員羅廷輝等17人提案第一項與委員羅明才等20人提案第一項同 增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內違反二次者得依請公路監理機關調扣其牌照6個月委員林倩琦等16人提案第一項與委員羅明才等20人提案第一項同 增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內再度違反者調扣其駕駛執照6個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
20352.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
20379.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
委員侯孟開等十六人提案修正第一項罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上三萬元以下增列第二項如下前項情形於一年內違反二次者調扣其駕駛執照一年予以現行法同委員廖偉祥等十六人提案修正罰還金額為新台幣三千元以上二萬元以下予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
20382.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
20405.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
第二條修正第二句為在中央為環境部予以現行法同第二十六條第一項倒數第二句前面為逗號與委員羅明采等二十人提案同第二十八條與委員羅明采等二十人提案第一項同提案人委員劉建國連署人委員林月琴王振旭宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
20408.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
20430.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
好那本次在交付之提案僅進行提案說明不另作詢答那現在進行噪音管制法第二條26條及28條條文修正草案等12案之逐條討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
20433.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
20435.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
剛剛還有一個徐文東一還沒有唸徐文東一另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
20441.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
20467.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
修正動議二第26條違反依第11條第一項鎖定標準者除民用航空器以民用航空法有關規定處罰外處機動車輛所有人或使用人新台幣3600元以上36000元以下罰還並責令其於15日內改善完畢藉其仍未完成改善者除按次處罰外並應以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
20467.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
20487.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
是改善完畢後發還於其二個月以上者註銷其牌照 前項情形於一年內再度違反者 應以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月並公布其姓名照片及違法事實提案委員盧憲一委員 陳昭姿委員 廖偉祥委員 牛許廷委員宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
20494.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
20523.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
好那現在進行噪音管制法第二條條文審查委員提案的部分有牛許廷委員廖偉祥委員等提案先請還有修正動議一呃劉建國劉建國委員及林月琴委員王振旭委員好那先請環境部說明再請委員發言好謝謝委員這個沒有意見本部沒有意見遵照辦理委員有意見嗎沒有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
20524.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
20547.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那就照委員牛許廷等25人及廖偉祥等16人提案通過現在進行噪音管制法第26條條文的審查委員提案的部分有台灣民眾黨黨團以及牛許廷委員等25人還有廖偉祥委員等16人以及修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
20548.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
20575.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
劉建國委員 林月琴委員 王振旭委員以及修正動議二 牛許廷委員等四人還有盧憲宜委員等四人所提修正動議那先請環境部說明再請委員發言好 謝謝主席本部針對委員的提案都表尊重而且加重罰刑的確是有必要可以嚇阻這個噪音的人所以本部遵照辦理那細節我們請市長來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
20580.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
20598.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
跟委員報告有關這個26條的修正條文我們是建議在第一項的部分有關划船的部分建議修正就是新台幣3600元以上到36000元以下的划船在第一項的部分有關划船的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
20599.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
20615.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
那在第二項的部分增列就是前項情形於一年內再度違反者得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月那藉這兩個方式來處理好 請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
20617.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
20634.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
我想是這樣子 就是罪行還是要相當那行政單位認為這個是可以扣牌的我覺得相較於闖紅燈闖紅燈現在是祭典 對不對無照駕駛才有扣照 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
20641.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
20669.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
那噪音當然是一件很嚴重的問題可是它的嚴重性有沒有到應該要扣牌這個我覺得行政機關對於一些法案可能要仔細想一想就是說相對應的罪必須要有相當的刑這個是一個很重要的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
20670.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
20696.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
假如說闖紅燈都是祭典那為什麼噪音兩次你要扣照懂我的意思嗎我是覺得這個可能大家討論一下那我站在罪行相當原則的立場我覺得這個處罰太重並不是表示我不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
20698.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
20727.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
管制噪音跟取締噪音好 謝謝好 林月琴委員有意見要發表因為現行罰款對明知故犯者效果有限所以常見回檢過關後又再改回來所以是不是應該事實上如果是累犯應該當場扣測然後強制他到案檢驗跟教育倒不是扣牌是說希望他能夠有一些配套的你不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
20728.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
20748.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
最後就扣牌那當然他最後都不能騎可是剛剛楊耀偉也講說那這樣子好像事實上是跟的確我們無照駕駛我們現在是希望也是用扣車的角度已經通過了可是現在我認為這部分可不可以考慮一下是說扣車然後他如果接受教育之後違規祭典彩祭累祭然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
20749.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
20762.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
後面再如果他接受這個因為我們是針對雷犯否則的話他持續啊否則你去檢驗完他之後還是持續去改裝結果最後效果非常有限以上請陳昭之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
20769.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
20796.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
謝謝主席因為我們黨的黨團的民眾黨團提案有提到說當場一致保管該機動的車輛本來就是因為介於這個機動車輛的這個公害陳情現在的量非常的龐大幾乎佔了整個所有的公害陳情大概三成以上然後那個尤其大都會跟包括還有台中雙北台中是情況是特別嚴重那因為政府現在是抓 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
20797.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
20817.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
抓草不抓改过去因为机车是有一段时间是有一年的缓冲期而且是免费帮他做一些认证就是你可以去改装但是给你一年的时间但是要做这个所谓的认证跟这个检测跟认证但是汽车没有就我们发现现在反而汽车这个问题会比较大 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
20818.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
20840.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
那因為過去顯然就是說這個大家都同意要加重這個罰則因為目前還是報應車炸機車還是就會在白天也會聽得到所以我們才提出第26條修正的方向是跟所有委員大概提出來是一樣那剛剛也聽到幾位委員的看法我們本來寫的是當場一致保管該機動的車輛 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
20843.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
20856.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
當然有人說要不要吊牌子這一點我想我就尊重我們黨團不會特別堅持我們尊重大家整體的這個討論我們也覺得說尤其是再犯的部分但是會不會不符比例這個我們也可以接受這樣的討論好謝謝好謝謝陳昭資委員發言好請王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
20866.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
20889.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
好 謝謝主席我想剛剛趙思維有提到這個原來民眾黨提案裡面有當場一致我先說明一下我住在小巨蛋附近那個之前因為那個路很寬很大所以常常有很大的噪音不管是機車或者是汽車可是最近一年來發現的確改善很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
20890.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
20917.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
真的謝謝環境部的努力讓我們的居民在生活上的確有很大的改善可是我們當然是希望他更好所以這些修正動議包括剛劉建國委員還有我跟林耀勳委員一起有提一個修正動議在這部分有關連髮緩還有或許的處理性也很謝謝我們住管機關這邊的支持我們相信這是一個好的方式如果說要當場一致的話我相信這個困難度相對是比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
20918.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
20938.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
所以也許可以請主管機關這邊來說明看看如果真的要這樣做的話會面臨什麼樣的困擾等一下也許牛許廷委員會提到有關於如何能夠再增加第一項跟第二項之間的連結我比較擔心就是說這兩個連結之間扣合的時候會不會有什麼衝突的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
20939.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
20958.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
因為你要跟第一項跟第二項之間會不會有辦法能夠順利包括兩個月還有半年之間萬一有什麼執行上有困難的時候那應該要執行一或者是執行二以上謝謝好 紐許庭委員張志倫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
20960.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
20989.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
好谢谢主席我想今天讨论这个有关于噪音防治的一个部分非常重要因为现在大家知道都会区的这个上班族非常辛苦很多民众回家可以休息的时候可是想没有想到三更半夜那外面街道传来这种飙车或者是改装车的这个声音让很多民众受不了所以我想今天修改这第26条原因就是希望说可以让辛苦的环保局的同仁跟警察同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
20990.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
21017.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
可以有一个更好的一个执法的一个工具所以当然我们是希望说罚还可以增加那至于说刚刚很多委员提论到其实刚刚主管机关也特别强调说其实是有要考虑这个跳扣期驾照的一个部分我想这个部分大家都是可以来讨论想出一个可以让执法机关在执法过程中可以更好的来执法更好的来嚇阻这样的情形我相信我们都是可以来讨论的谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
21020.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
21040.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
謝謝請牛許庭委員發言謝謝主席這我們的修正動議是應該是各個版本裡面最兇殘的啦但是我覺得那個噪音車的那種平常對我們市民朋友的兇殘程度也應該付出相應的代價我簡單說明一下我們第一個當然罰環的部分我覺得環境部非常有誠意啊三萬六當然法律越重越好嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
21040.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
21059.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
第二個我們是有加一個15日內改善完畢啦回用15日的原因是因為我們前一陣子修正道交條例嘛道交條例在討論噪音車重新萬一沒有用驗證的排氣管回去檢查的時候也是用15天為當作一個基準啦所以看法律上要不要其一啦那第三跟第四部分是講扣牌我對扣牌我是覺得要有堅持啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
21060.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
21081.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
因為雖然這樣講可能有點太武斷但是很多會搞噪音車或什麼的他大概也是很有錢大概也是罰不怕啦之前我們在基層去問執法狀況的時候也常常講說他就給你罰嘛罰單當交保護費然後就繼續搞所以我是覺得沒有到扣牌的程度大概難以有效嚇阻那我們是希望說這個跟盜交條例可以形成雙保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
21083.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
21104.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
不管你是沒有用這個環境部認證的排氣管或者是你的噪音就是時序的超標而且你沒有辦法有一個改善機制的時候你當然就應該會祭出最嚴重的手段所以就有我們的修正動議大概邏輯上是這樣那具體來講怎麼樣去找到一個大家的平衡點我們就聽一聽大家的意見 以上好 那是不是請行政單位回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
21105.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
21131.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
向各位委員報告有關剛才委員垂詢的特別是汽車的移置的部分因為噪音的當場如果當場發生噪音源的時候其實我們除了量測以外一般是用聲音照相去量測可是量測完以後因為噪音本身我們要排除背景噪音還有其他的噪音源干擾等等才能夠確定還要經過判斷以後才能確定是不是這輛車造成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
21132.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
21140.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
這樣的處分才會 才經得起檢驗所以這樣的一個情況下是比較困難在當場就能夠扣車 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
21142.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
21163.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
因為假設你的處分不像酒測直接量一個結果用行為人直接就可以了解噪音車的部分可能會有困難我們以往都要花一段時間回來判別環保局都要花一段時間判別到底這個噪音源是不是這輛車排的這個跟各位委員報告會有這樣的一個困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
21164.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
21189.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
另外一个假设真的有一致的话就是需要一致这些车辆的话保管期限保管费用还有这辆车辆将来的如果有受损的话等等这个可能也要考虑的确在过去我们的环保法规里面目前只有废青法有类似的条文其他法规是没有这样的一个条文所以如果有这样的一个精神在的话也许我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
21190.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
21211.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
以後需要搭配的配套的執法或這個也需要再做考慮以剛才跟各位報告的廢清法廢清法在他的母法裡面第9條跟第10條如果你要扣他的這些清除機具處理設施的話都還要再訂相關的規定還有機具另外也有規定他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
21214.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
21230.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
扣留的時間要以一年為限等等類似這樣的一個規定這個是有關一致車輛的部分的報告另外一個就是有關扣車的部分剛才牛委員這邊有提到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
21231.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
21255.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
改善前另期15日改善完畢因為噪音的發生的來源在各縣市的情況的處理情況可能會不太一樣特別是你要回頭再做改善的話是要回到各環保局裡面重新做檢測每個環保局的量能也不太一樣所以15日有可能有些環保局可能會有或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
21258.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
21280.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
這個行為人可能也會有因為他必須在禮拜一到禮拜五的上班時間來做那牛委員提的這案子當然加重處罰對於減少噪音應該是有幫助不過因為第一次第一次違反噪音管制標準就需要來扣他的牌照 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
21282.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
21293.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
會不會比較嚴重如果剛好那一個車子不是改裝摩托車而是他剛好是他的身材工具那會不會讓他就兩個月不能夠這個會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
21297.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
21319.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
比較嚴重因為有些我們回頭檢視跟各位報告就是我們大概處分去年一年處分噪音法移動車輛處分大概5000多件檢舉有3萬多件 處分5000多件重複發生的以台北市而言大概300件就300件 其他的都是一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
21320.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
21348.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
那如果說一次的就要扣會不會因為有時候因為噪音的發聲不見得是改裝有可能是駕駛習慣的不好或者是某一些因素造成那有可能是車輛老舊等等那所以這些因素加總以後違反了噪音管制標準是不是要第一次就這麼嚴格也提供各位委員參考對 我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
21352.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
21355.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
好謝謝那有沒有有沒有什麼意見那那個牛委員請問剛剛的回應你們什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
21364.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
21393.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
我們一段一段來好不好我覺得反正三千六 三萬六大家應該都沒有意見嘛沒問題 對對啊 這一段我們就這樣沒錯 沒錯現在就是後面的加重的部分我請教一下環境部啦因為你剛剛有講一個檢驗量能不足的問題那實務上來講你覺得幾天合適啦然後我們用什麼樣的方式讓它有一定的拘束力我們可以從這個方向做討論嗎因為過去我們的那個時間是由各環保局以他們實際狀況來掀起改善所以並沒有定一個明確約保留一個彈性保留彈性 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
21395.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
21414.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
因為不單單是環保局要有量能因為發生違反這個的行為人他自己本身也要去做這樣的一個所以是不是因為噪音法本身相關的環保法規對於限期改善最高都是不超過90字不超過90字但也許我們不用到90字還是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
21415.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
21443.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
比照原來的那種精神限期改善讓環保局去通知來做處理那扣牌的部分你有沒有什麼具體的建議如果講說後面第三點我剛剛講第三點跟第四點的部分因為跟委員報告因為第二項的部分一年內違反兩次就調扣這個牌照六個月是已經是過去沒有的那這樣的一個情況其實對照其他環保法規來講其他環保法規以情節重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
21445.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
21463.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
都是兩次或兩次以上才會去做這樣的動作所以吊扣牌照基本上我們自己初步評估他很偏向情節重大以後的處遇方式如果說第一次就直接處理太兇了我認為溯源的情況會很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
21473.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
21501.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
對啊 那你們具體的意見是什麼我們建議是這樣子因為在處以滑反3000到36000以後我們在我們後續應該要訂定的違反噪音管制法違反噪音管制法案件裁罰基準上面我們來做一些設計讓它處的滑反可以依照它違反的樣態來加重處理在第一次是用滑反線來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
21502.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
21511.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
那如果說他是累犯就是一年發生兩次的我們再進入第二項來讓他調扣他的牌照六個月的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
21515.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
21542.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
等一下 你剛剛講後面那段你再補充說明一下是 就是我們第一個我們先把我們的滑船的部分變成3600到3600這沒有問題 這個我已經講好了嘛然後這個以後呢如果說我們後續的設計因為我們還要調整我們原來的執法就是違反噪音管制法案件裁罰基準這個基準可以依照它的違反樣態我們來加重它的那個滑船的處分的這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
21544.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
21571.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
那不要暫時第一次不要去調扣他的這個牌照兩個月也就是說他意思說現在他說三萬多件嘛然後五千多件是處分的那有不同的樣態發生那你們現在還沒有辦法很明確的去定義他所以你也不能直接說要很嚴格因為你說要從執法裡面再去分類是不是他如果真的違反我們可以從他的樣態去決定他要罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
21572.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
21588.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
再給他彈性多少錢的這個方式處理但是如果說一違法就調扣兩個月可能也會跟楊耀委員剛才所提的罪行相當的這個部分因為其他的法規其實還沒有到這麼嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
21594.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
21609.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
主席那個主席主席林月晴委員有話說林月晴委員發言今天江部也有來因為剛剛楊耀委員提的這江部可不可以說明一下跟你其他的因為我覺得法跟法之間還不能落差到太大是江部也做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
21613.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
21641.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
交通部做說明依照處罰條例的話吊扣牌照跟吊扣交道確實是屬於比較重的處罰大概現在一般的話都是重罰所以要吊而且又吊扣牌照六個月這在處罰條例裡面除了註銷以外算是次重的罰則以上這樣好不好因為我們這樣子我是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
21642.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
21652.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
時間的部分還是要有所保留你們剛剛有講說一定會開限期改善那我們就把15日改成並則令限期改善對不對 這樣應該是OK你們限期改善最多是90天 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
21654.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
21681.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
環保法規是90天嘛就不超過90天所以一定不會超過90天嘛好 但我覺得如果已經從15天放寬到90天我擔心這樣嚇阻力道就下降所以我還是希望後面的這個未完成改善者除暗示處罰外我給你一個空間啦就併得疑請公路機關吊扣牌照嘛避免惡行重大嘛你如果一直都不配合吹了好幾次都不來 對不對那我就要記重點我要保留你這樣子執法的空間嘛然後自改善完畢後發還嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
21682.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
21698.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
如果大家覺得說我一次要連兩個月註銷條款這樣下去太兇悍的話就寫到這裡然後其他一年內再度違反者得引起移請公路機關給你一定的空間來做裁量但保留了最後兇殘的裁量處理權限請問環境部可不可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
21704.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
21723.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
基本上委員剛才所提的這個應該是有助於噪音的改善不過就是第一次就有保留這個空間來做這個吊扣牌照的部分會不會跟其他的法規比起來的確是比較嚴重因為有些人是真的是惡意的有些可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
21726.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
21753.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
先針對剛剛牛委員的他剛剛是有說通知限期改善這個也沒問題啦好 我們就改成限期改善嘛這本來上面是 請大家看一下本來是沒寫啦 是吧 沒寫對不對有有有 並通知限期改善這就通知限期改善嘛 對對 責令限期改善 一樣意思然後未完成者按次處罰那現在的差別就是說第一次是不是就可以得移請公路監理機關這個啦對 我講的也不是說他第一次就移請嘛是第一次是一定要檢驗嘛我講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
21755.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
21761.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
我覺得我講的是德就是說你如果覺得可以移情就是惡行重大的狀況你可以直接處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
21767.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
21792.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
對啊 而且前面有借其未完成改善者我才扣牌也就是說抓到不管是測數環監警聯合稽查抓到之後他違規我開一張罰單叫他限期改善而且限期改善是90天90天內沒有完成改善你就要開第二張罰單但是我就怕只有開罰單罰不夠所以我才講除案次處罰外得疑警公路監理機關調扣及牌照自改善完畢後發還先這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
21795.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
21806.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
也就是說他90天都不配合很糟糕你當然可以而且你只是移情而已對不對要判還是公路機關來判而且我們本來在盜交裡面就是15天裡面就要做處理啦所以我覺得這應該相對來講比較沒有問題請問環境部這樣OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
21816.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
21837.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
不過 不好意思 我也要問如果剛剛那個牛齊廷委員講的會不會這裁量權大到有些縣市會沒有有些縣市 因為是德嘛我現在沒有要贏只是我的意思說如果我們過去一般這種裁判就要講情節重大你才去做什麼可是現在沒有的話 到時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
21839.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
21859.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
民眾的溯源會不會更多就是因為沒有有些縣市就直接就我看你你90天沒來我馬上就去做這個東西因為90天也有可能很多狀況事實上是他不是惡意刻意他假設因為以前我們在拆違章建築在當委員的時候都還要去考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
21859.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
21878.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
孕婦或考慮家裡有沒有人過世這些很多的條件去考慮的時候有一些但書才去做這個東西因為拆房子要顧忌到我們的風俗民情所以我覺得如果這個的話會不會讓那個彈性度太大反而造成一些困擾這個可能要去想 以上好 請陳昭智委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
21886.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
21906.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我想說有我在對於那個限期改善限期的部分尊重大家討論那個改善的部分我現在確認一下改善的部分就是要重新再經過檢測認證對嗎那現在就我記得我想再確認一下說我大概在半年之前有一次質詢因為現在受理機車改裝這個白血管合法檢驗時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
21907.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
21924.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
因為他是各地方自己用他的標準像台中南投苗栗的環保局那時候應該是彭部長您已經上任竟然要求把這個中尾段都焊死黏死等等那因為這個陳情者或是網路上有說因為他各地環保局不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
21925.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
21952.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
那是不是那時候我是請環境部能夠做一個統一啦因為基亞檢測就有一個統一的方式然後再去測就是要用什麼方式去發證那這個東西當然有一點複雜可不可以在立法說明的時候那個改善所謂限期改善的改善限期我現在就聽大家尊重大家一點那個改善的意思就是重新再對吧重新再認證那那個東西各地的標準確實有不一致喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
21954.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
21980.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
也确实有不一样各地方那因为车子是机动的你这边OK跑到那里就不OK那也不对啊谢谢委员就是有关那个改善结果的判别都是以我们管制噪音管制标准来做判别嘛所以他做完以后那我们过去有要求县市环保局在做相关量测的时候要求那个要焊死不让他随便在比如说如果没有焊死的话他可能测完他回去又拔掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
21981.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
22002.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
不好意思我继续跟他对话一下我自己说有规定旱死年死的就只有几个都市那有几个城市没有我还特别提台中南投苗栗的他们是这样规定但有些没有这样规定所以是不是请环境部就是把它一致化我们要求我们下达的时候其实是要求都是旱死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
22002.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
22024.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
那也没关系一致就可以了免得一辆车子从这里跑到那边合格变不合格不合格变合格可以吗可以在立法说明里面把这个我们可以在相关修法完以后航班就是要求在执法的相关的要求就是这件事情已经有大概将近一年前了谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
22025.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
22054.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
好所以我想問因為剛剛你們前面有回答說會有一個裁發基準因為我們現在不管什麼樣裁發你都不可以0到100的時候那個範圍太大有些人就是一直在裁0可是他也沒有0到100的那個基準的話就會差異很大有人一開始就反正只要再一次反正我就馬上去去那個移情公路總局去調扣車牌所以是不是你們這個會搭配去做那個裁發基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
22056.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
22077.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
跟委員報告目前裁罰基準上面對移動車輛的部分有有兩個做法第一個是他第一次違反的時候過去的罰則是罰款最低法是1800他先罰1800但是你如果第二次就按次處罰加900塊所以就等於1800的一半變成2700第二次就變2700這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
22079.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
22096.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
第二個處罰的方式是如果他在夜間跟特定的噪音管制區的時候違反的時候我們直接取最高法當時的最高法是3600所以就直接罰3600也就是1800的兩倍 3600但是如果隨著我們這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
22097.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
22121.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
滑板的上下線都改了改成3600跟36000的時候我們會重新再去設計包含它超過的分倍數的多寡還有包含它一年它這一年或兩年內違反幾次以後我們要乘倍數來做儲備讓它可以有嚇阻的作用對 那是錢嘛現在講的時候到底有你到第二如果他這樣講沒有改善的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
22123.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
22138.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
講得很寬嘛 案是處罰外就要得 得以請公務員監理就按那個調扣期牌照會不會我馬上就已經是不只是罰到2700以剛剛過去的那個錢的話我馬上也要調扣他的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
22139.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
22164.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
這個是有可能的所以我就說那個差異很大反正我們一般來講會說重大情節再去做這些事情否則的話這個寫法會變成會不會各地方的執行會非常的大差異那有些縣市大概就是有一個很嚴的他就每次到一沒改善就這樣做這是一個所以我擔心的會是到時候溯源會不會很多另外一個就是說今天法務是不是也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
22165.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
22192.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
有來那我覺得可不可以解釋一下法跟法之間競合的落差的那個否則的話跟道交條例裡邊差異這麼大的話那是不是好像犯了這邊的問題就很嚴重罰的很處罰的非常的重然後可是在我們認為更嚴重的在交通違規的話更嚴重就反而罰的不是這麼重委員吹薰這是43條的部分嗎26條 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
22200.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
22206.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
不然是不是請環境部再宣讀一下也請各位委員和相關人士看一下螢幕的修正條文內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
22209.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
22233.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
就目前的委員提出的修正版本的部分26條第一項是違反第11條第一項所定標準者與民用航空器依民用航空法有關規定處罰外處機動車輛所有人或使用人新台幣3600元以上36000元以下划算並通知限期改善藉其人未完成改善者處案次處罰外並得以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
22236.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
22263.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
公路監理機關調扣其牌照自改善完畢後發法案那第二項是前項情形於一年內再度違反者得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月那個那個提案修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
22263.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
22272.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
所以你們現在是說剛剛問我們法務部這邊有沒有什麼意見我這邊我們就尊重那個主管機關他們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
22277.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
22297.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
要解釋說剛剛提的如果酒駕獲得是無照價值罰的都沒有這個這麼重然後這邊罰的這麼重一個是生命的我不是講環保不重要照應大家也對人家精神上有干擾只是我覺得法的那個比例原則裡面各法之間的那個競合關係是不是要請你法部表示意見 以上可以先 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
22301.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
22313.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
我可以先請交通部等一下一起說明一下我們知道這個噪音的確尤其是在深夜的時候造成民眾的這個影響真的非常大那目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
22314.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
22336.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
交通部在什麼情境之下什麼需求之下才有需要去調扣他的駕照或者是執照之類的就是如果我們還是希望這個有一定的比例原則如果其他的相關的要到調扣牌照的那些行為跟我們這次想要訂的這個違規的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
22339.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
22356.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
有他的太大的不一致性的時候我現在對民眾來講要他做改善當然是很好可是又逾越了這個法令的需求以上好是不是請交交通部的交通部出席官員回答吊銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
22376.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
22399.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
那個我補充一下啦剛剛我聽環境部這裡回答嘛它其實有各種樣態嘛第一次犯多少錢然後如果你在寧靜區或什麼的嘛或夜間嘛所以它其實就有層次嘛那我現在把調扣的排名得調扣條款加在裡面你就把最嚴重的狀況嘛我夜晚在寧靜區飆我就是調扣嘛這其實給你一個你在放裁罰基準的時候你本來會按照比例原則去做處理這個事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
22399.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
22428.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
所以我才講說你把最高的那種各式各樣的方法都寫在法條裡面然後在你的裁罰基準裡面你去明列這樣子就沒有那麼多溯源的問題了嘛因為你已經寫得很清楚說我是在哪一些情況之下最嚴重的情況下我會直接去做調扣而且我覺得這個也是我這個等於是憲改沒有完成完全不配合的人才有機會可以議請調扣其實已經我是覺得已經算很比起我本來說應送或者是甚至要註銷已經算是很我覺得算是很寬容了啦所以是不是趕快有一點有一個共識我是希望比較好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
22431.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
22459.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
這跟委員會報告我是交通部公運司專門委員趙信偉那剛剛委員提到關於處罰條例有關於吊扣的牌照的部分我簡單跟委員會報告第一個我們現在違反道路交通管理處罰條例的相關處罰大概從最新從發黃開始到比較嚴重的吊扣牌照然後到吊銷牌照到末路大概是有這樣子依照情節那我們現行的處罰條例面如果有第一次違反規定就要吊扣牌照這種情節的話在處罰條例大概目前大概只有三四種太陽包含第一個酒駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
22460.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
22484.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
處罰單35條的酒駕第二個43條的危險駕駛第三個是處罰單12條的你是使用偽變照號牌跟這個部分那第四個大概就是我們最近新增的有關無照駕駛的部分只有這樣子的這幾種情形才會有第一次違反的時候就會有吊扣牌照的這樣子情形所以我們吊扣牌照在我們道路交通關係處罰條裡面算是一個比較重的一個處分以上補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
22487.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
22495.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
不過他不是第一次就得疫情他是第二次因為他是限期改善他不改善喔他是不改善之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
22498.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
22521.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
就是說他限期改善他不改善了90天後他不改善了那他除了暗刺處罰之外他最重可以得疑情這樣子各位報告我剛剛說明了數線線型的12條21條35條跟43條部分大概就是第一次就有掉過駕照的那如果你是累犯的部分的話或第二次的話呢有在掉扣牌照的也是有有相關規定的就蠻多的是不是樣態就比較多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
22522.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
22538.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
當然都是因為吊扣牌照是影響到車子的使用那這個是屬於比較情節重大的大概就是要累犯或是要一定次數以上才會有這樣子的一個處罰以上我補充一下那個剛剛修過的道交條例16條是沒有按照環境部的排氣管然後沒有驗車就一次就直接扣喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
22539.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
22562.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
所以我是覺得沒有道理公路監理的法規比環保法規還嚴格如果我們的本意是要遏制噪音的話啦所以我是希望他是有同步的概念我之所以會這樣寫是有同步的概念我認為是這樣因為他現在看起來並不是第一次第一次就處理嘛就把他得以請他是等於是第二次第一次抓到之後沒有限期改善者他可以得以請啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
22562.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
22574.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
那照剛剛交通部的講法就是其實這樣子的樣態就比較多了所以這部分不知道大家有沒有共識請問寧約群委員跟這個王振旭委員如果這樣子解釋的話會不會有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
22576.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
22599.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
因為前面跟後面到底因為第一個事實上是你第一次犯然後後來因為他沒有去改善可是他也沒去開這個車然後就要去調扣牌照到第二項的時候是說他再犯也是會去扣那第一次是不是比例原則上那第一次我沒改善我就去扣第二次我再犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
22601.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
22621.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
這前項跟後項當中有沒有有一些我自己感覺上好像也是有點不太對的它是等於是它是得啦它是給它一個空間比較嚴格一點的但是它是第二次那我覺得還有一種做法我們現在可以等一下第二輪反正才三條嘛我們可以第二輪再回來討論我們可以先看28條好不好對啊第二28條沒有什麼問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
22630.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
22630.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
我 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
22630.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
22659.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
是不是我再跟各位補充報告一下就是26條的這個部分剛才牛委員有特別垂詢說我們是不是可以在裁罰基準裡面再去定這個德的樣態其實依照過去的做法過去環保法規的做法那個裁罰基準都是在定那個划緩的金額而已所以目前那個德移情公路機關的確是會變成是地方主管機關的裁量權會變成那判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
22660.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
22669.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
那也有可能會發生像林慧琼委員所講的有可能各機關的各地方的做法可能會不一樣是有這樣的可能有這樣的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
22672.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
22700.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
好這個剛剛行政機關有說明喔這個剛剛牛委員有沒有聽到他對有嗎那現在如果還沒有公示不然我們這條現在先保留等一下我們再回來討論好第二輪再回來討論那我們現在就先進入第28條所以現在進行噪音管制法第28條條文審查委員提案的部分有這個張志倫委員台灣民眾黨黨團牛許廷委員還有洪孟楷委員及廖偉祥委員等 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
22700.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
22717.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
那這個還有一個修正動議還有一個修正動議對這個跟修正動議有林岳勤委員王振旭委員以及劉建國委員好那我們現在請先請環境部說明再請委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
22724.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
22752.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
第28条的部分最主要是不依第13条第13条的部分是民众检举这个车辆然后所以呢他要来倒检或者是检验不合格处激动那这一次配合这个委员的提案呢其实我们把相关的这个划环的部分也重新调整原来是1600到36001800到3600我们把它调整成新台币3600以上到36000以下的划环以上报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
22755.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
22782.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
好 請委員發表意見我覺得這條比較沒爭議嘛因為它真的是不依十三條規定啦十三條是跟人民陳情有關嘛那為了避免這個事情又變成互相檢舉然後造成案量很多然後不見得好處理這件事情的話先用法環來處理我覺得OK啦所以我覺得看看要不要大家如果沒有意見我們就照環保環境部的建議的版本我們這樣來達成共識是不是 謝謝好 還有沒有其他委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
22783.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
22800.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
如果沒有的話請陳昭智委員發言我們居然是最重的民眾黨團的是6000元到6萬以下不過這個我們不堅持那個環境部現在你們最後的修正的還是多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
22803.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
22819.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
三千六 如果這個我想就各個委員的版本從一千八到最上最上是六萬差距很大那個我就沒有特別發現我們很嚴格但我不會堅持好那請洪峰凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
22820.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
22841.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
那環境部是不是也可以說明一下因為我看到有一些委員包括本席的版本都有違反第二次吊扣駕照不管是六個月或是一年的部分那在這一條裡面你們建議到之後還是不要吊扣駕照主要原因是什麼是不是也說明一下是 跟委員報告這一條最主要是民眾檢舉陳情所以被檢舉人他要來盜檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
22843.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
22862.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
那有可能那個人沒有來倒檢那也許他忘了或者他沒有那第二次沒倒檢他就被調後拍照因為我們在實務上有看到那種惡意檢舉的樣態再加上那個如果那個車子是他的生財工具的話他必須在禮拜一到禮拜五去環保局 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
22863.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
22880.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
那如果他沒去兩次他就被調扣牌照了等於是你們也看到有可能譬如說到最後變成是惡意檢舉然後互相攻擊互相傷害那避免是說民眾濫用公權力是不是另外一個就是跟委員報告因為他並不是被環保機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
22883.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
22908.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
檢測到他不合規定他可能是未倒檢然後就被兩次就扣牌他如果不合格上路被抓到就用26條就處分了兩次他就可以調扣牌照6個月就不用在28條處理因為28條真的很擔心會有人惡意檢舉這樣主席我原則上同意環境部的修法就3600到3600以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
22911.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
22938.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
好這個謝謝委員發言那這一這個部分第28條就依照環境部建議 照委員羅廷偉等17人提案修正通過那現在再到第二輪有沒有 委員有沒有需要 建議休息5分鐘讓大家再討論一下好那我們休息5分鐘請這個行政機關是不是跟委員溝通一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
22961.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
22989.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
二八是陳情是不是我覺得真的不要有這個有些人那個亂亂亂你如果說你在路上被檢舉你等於是你已經被檢舉到第二次因為他們關於那個裁判是準確的你哪有辦法寫出來這樣可是否則你他用的當然我覺得我不是不支持這個用的之後真的會比之前寬鬆一點可是重點是地方政府在執行的時候因為我以前一直在處理那種兒女或 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
22990.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
23000.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
那地方每一個差異很大那就很衰蠻好了做到這個你的法是用盒啊那我不要啊我等到第三次才做嗎我先問一下感謝我們這邊法定改革的空間但是另外一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
23013.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
23030.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
就是你怎麼從3000罰到3600罰到30000罰那但是對於這一種一起這個附近的機關的部分沒有辦法在台灣去整定所以就變成地上主體機關都封閉了所以就會發生剛才林委員剛才所提的就是有可能我們的縣市跟他可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
23032.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
23040.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
可能壓力或怎麼樣 反正通常都...就變成說 同樣的一個樣態 可能會發生另外一件事 那時候香港也跟我們有關因為他又去殭屍 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
23047.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
23066.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
也有可能是他的車輛不是改裝的但他就為了照片可能真的就像我講的他可能現時改但他就改了結果沒有過然後就掉後擦傷那個但是有可能有一個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
23072.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
23087.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
指法人員他在現場的時候 假設他是改裝車 那他就送那如果說是老舊車 那他就不要送了沒有 他是要他改善先送現改 現改沒過 我可以 我可以過我們可以一起接一條路過來我覺得還好 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
23093.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
23105.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
那我問喔因為有些鄉下地方他們因為車輛老舊 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
23120.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
23127.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
我們還要考慮到因為不能用都市觀點去看那如果他也沒辦法改造可是他需要他這個車再騎 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
23137.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
23158.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
他沒辦法改善所以有可能就被承諾過關所以我站在你的談判之中因為我們要解決的是那種他喜歡飆車的啦所以我之所以講說反而給地方政府面前有些好事我可以看出來我在杜威夷我就把他設立成營運區或者是駕降司法局那我駕降司法局我可能會從措施上去相對來講其實也沒有影響到大洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
23160.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
23186.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
可是你們可以做一些因為我覺得裁判基準像我們自己在處理的裁判基準的話它底下還是可以有引導師的說明這些就是在執法上可以有一些引導師那這個我就接受你立法書面把它給寫進去因為你怕的是這個對 就是那種老舊車輛對 老舊車輛可是我又有怕有的縣市又是 我就不要怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
23191.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
23200.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
他不是改裝 他是剛好沒有車 結果他生財工具我們要考慮到民生 結果他生財工具被扣兩個月以後他影響你那麼多還蠻驚人的時候 可能會影響更大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
23205.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
23224.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
所以我們當時為甚麼只建議說一、二項一年兩次我們會覺得是說一年兩次至少感覺比較符合其他的那個經濟重大的因為我們有去查台北市一年兩次的一年兩次大概有三百間三百間那新北的部分大概八十幾大概有這幾個謝謝 突然不如我們去查但是會變成是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
23234.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
23256.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
我們只算是比較情節重大的才去調控它其他的我們用滑板來設計的情況下可是第26條它是寫維繩第一條第一項目那第26條第一項目是要去規範什麼是特別狀況那就是一般狀況如果我們是想要針對這種夜間或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
23260.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
23272.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
那個我們都在採訪基礎裡面有特別加注葉簡的重瓦我覺得這樣比較好我是有人生財工業他在要用你就要採訪 要調科他就沒辦法工作我是說如果要把那個香港聯合公司的一些想法關注到這一條的話因為我們職業獎規範第七條是一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
23293.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
23296.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
所以剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
23312.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
23328.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
因為汽車目前還沒有到當然我們希望他可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
23351.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
23357.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
所以你還違反那就殺頭了 沒什麼好客氣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
23367.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
23377.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
而且另外一點你如果剛講到身材工具或什麼但他重點是他還是會發出噪音那我們還是不希望說雖然他是他的身材工具但我們還是不希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
23378.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
23405.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
持續發出噪音嘛那如果說你後面我們還有一個在一年裡面違反二次然後要調扣不管是半年或一年的話那這樣子那生財工具還是要被抓拿嗎對啊所以說有第一次比如說第一次到然後這個得扣或不扣那個就是裁量嘛但是我們也要讓那個老舊車輛或是說他真的生財工具你也要警惕就是說那這樣子你要試著趕快去把這個車輛更新或是加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
23408.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
23423.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
不要噪音 不然你如果說下一次三個月後再被抓到那你一樣就 吊扣啦那我們就是不要噪音嘛都懂 可是如果是有證的是啦 但是重點是說這樣就是民怨啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
23425.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
23451.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
如果是晚上這樣就沒問題了白天因為他們要用到車也是白天 那就煙嘛我覺得還有一個就是你們不是都有很多的樣態嗎就是剛剛應該會有一些質疑對啊 就讓那邊解決就好了這是112年6月30號修正的像我們這裡面就有規定於夜間這個時段以法定的最高划算來處理然後我們的後面就有加速 夜間時段 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
23455.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
23465.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
所以我們將來 既然現在已經調到3000到3600我們後續就會去設計這個機制譬如說像 簡單來講它那個會是情節很重大譬如說超過幾分貝勒 我們就要拔多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
23481.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
23504.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
對 我們會去設計這個 重新調整包含剛才委員關係的在不同的時段或特定區域學校旁邊其實學校旁邊我們連哨音管制標準都加以五分貝就是避免去影響到如果在那邊我們可以做我覺得月勤委員擔心的只是說這個財量的基準很大然後變成是到時候很多麻煩的都住院了但是我覺得這是可以解決的就是說你們要有一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
23507.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
23507.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
對啦 這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
23525.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
23543.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
是 可是我覺得前面 因為我說之前我們在處理幼兒園的那個他也是在裁罰基準 前面有個質疑式的說明說你要考慮到他等於是說你回去講一下說什麼情況可能你回去看一下你那五千多件裁罰裡面有什麼可能是他現期內感到你要對 我們現在等於是說讓你授權你在裁罰基準去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
23557.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
23562.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
或是前面就是除暗示處罰外 刑劫重大者 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
23582.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
23611.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
那情節重大你們把它定義出來一樣的道理嘛就是說你90天沒有去處理那還或者說一個什麼事情情節重大對 用情節重大那情節重大你就可以有一個標準用情節重大比較寬鬆然後用明確的把時間列出來那那個標準把它寫出來那就會好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好玩好 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
23617.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
23630.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
只要不會有爭議現在遭殷法裡面是沒有情節重大的這四個字現在加上去以後加上去以後是不是要在母法裡面直接定義情節重大是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
23633.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
23650.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
那還是可以換句話說因為概念是這樣概念如果說是就多加這一個那這樣你可以避免一些無心之過或是說比較沒有不可歸咎因素但是我們真正要的是要剋除那些刻意飆車 催油門 拉轉速 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
23659.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
23682.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
對不起我可以針對情節重大 大家剛有討論到夜間包括安寧地區我們就先把它當作情節重大把它涵掛到我們法院裡面因為這個是基本大家目前對生動數學的這種行為真的是大家無法忍受如果將來要再改變或怎麼樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
23694.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
23696.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
所以剛剛有提到除暗示處罰外 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
23707.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
23716.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
就如果是發生在那個情節重大嘛後面那家情節重大這樣的說明情節重大說明就發發來情節重大必得宜寢情節重大就得宜寢謝謝部長 辛苦了 辛苦了 大家辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
23758.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
23761.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
好那我們現在請環境部說明協商結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
23764.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
23792.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
向委員報告那個依照目前所修正的文字呢對於這個借其未完 在第一項裡面借其未完成改善者除暗刺處罰外加上情節重大者並得以請公路監理機關調扣其牌照自改善完畢後劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
23798.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
23809.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
因為他前面已經有處案這是處罰外我想病應該可以不用了因為他處我們各位委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
23811.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
23838.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
可以嗎可以喔好我只是確認一下法律用語是這樣子嗎情節重大者還是就犯行情節重大者情節重大者的我只是確認一下我們有沒有那個法務同仁還是什麼來建議好情節重大者後面鬥點情節重大者後面鬥點 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
23856.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
23859.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
好我們是不是先請這個環境部再念一次再選讀一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
23861.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
23889.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
第26條違反第11條第一項鎖定標準者除民用航空機依民用航空法有關規定處罰外處機動車輛所有人或使用人薪台幣3600元以上36000元以下划款並通知限期改善藉其仍未完成改善者除按次處罰外情節重大者並得依請公路監理機關調扣其牌照至改善完畢後划法 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
23890.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
23906.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
前項情形於一年內再度違反者得疑請公路監理機關調扣其牌照六個月好那主席情節重大者就授權行政機關這邊在立法說明這邊把他給列舉出來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
23908.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
23933.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
那這個相關情節重大者就請行政部門在這個說明的部分把它列出來那這一條我們第26條呢就照委員羅明才等20人提案及委員盧憲一 牛許廷等4人修正動議修正通過是不是要印出來大家簽名不用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
23936.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
23939.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
現在先印出來給委員看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
23966.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
23972.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
現在處理附帶決議共一案請議事人員宣讀內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
23975.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
23997.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
附帶決議有鑒於移動噪音源稽查難度較高請環境部加強設置聲音照相透過科技執法取締噪音車及改裝排氣管源頭管理令科技執法上難以涵蓋噪音車出沒熱點民眾陳情噪音車案例仍持續發生國家環境研究院因緊述研發更新技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
23999.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
24021.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
並盤點地方政府需求持續推動聲音照相設備以降低噪音提升生活品質提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴盧憲一宣讀完畢好請問本案行政單位有沒有意見好委員有沒有意見好謝謝好那都無異議照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
24024.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
24030.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
做以下決議那個其他我也沒有看到負債決議可不可以目前正在處理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
24074.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
24078.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
好大家都沒有異議吧好無異議那就照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
24083.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
24102.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
那現在做以下決議噪音管制法第2條26條及28條條文修正草案等12案審查完略並案擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論本案時由廖召集委員韋翔補充說明請問本案是否需交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
24104.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
24118.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
不用好不須交由黨團協商那本法案第28條相關立法說明授權行政單位提供那本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
24136.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
24138.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
謝謝大家收看 |