| IVOD_ID |
17000 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17000 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-03T08:34:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-03T12:59:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:24:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dbcadc5d7c138f87242a6346f1e82079083051bafb051454bd30d2a1f2853f61d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處作為」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:28 - 12:59:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1565.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1568.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初期委員10人已足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1573.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1598.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期外交及國防委員會第十次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十月三十日星期四上午九十至十一時四十三分地點紅樓山林議會議室出席委員羅美玲等十一人列席委員賴世寶等九人列席人員外交部部長林佳龍及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1599.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1615.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
國家安全局副局長陳松吉經濟部國際貿易署署長劉威年大陸委員會副主任委員沈有忠防澳部政務次長黃士傑調查局副局長許國珍主席王釗己委員定宇報告是相依宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1616.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1635.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
二 邀請外交部 經濟部 大陸委員會報告我國參與2025年度亞太經濟合作APEC經濟領袖會議的任務及目標並被質詢三 邀請國家安全局 外交部 大陸委員會 法務部 法務部調查局報告中共對台進行長臂管轄 跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1637.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1653.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
外交部部長林佳龍經濟部國際貿易署署長劉維年大陸委員會副主任委員沈永中國家安全局副局長陳淑儀防務部政務次長黃士傑及調查局副局長許國珍報告委員羅美玲等11人質詢均由外交部部長林佳龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1654.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1670.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
经济部国际贸易署署长刘威廉大陆委员会副主任委员沈有忠国家安全局副局长陈松吉及法务部政务次长黄世杰等及其答复决定一登记咨询在场委员均已发言完毕报告及询答结束二委员陈永康林义军黄杰黄仁及 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1670.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1684.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
紐許庭所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭諮詢為其答覆或要求提供資資訊請相關機關於二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1688.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1701.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
接下來請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍商購買延宕原因分析及具體應處作為並被質詢宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1715.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1742.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
國防部部長 顧立雄 顧部長副參謀總長執行官 黃志偉 黃上將楊基榮 楊長屋次長全民防衛動員署 李定忠 李署長總督察長室 盧建忠 總督察長石文榮 石參室 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1744.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1758.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
政務辦公室 孫立芳 孫主任政治作戰局 史順文 史局長軍備局 林文祥 林局長主計局 謝啟賢 謝局長軍醫局 醫務計畫處 吳育權 吳處長戰略規劃司 黃文啟 黃司長資源規劃司 藍靜婷 藍司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1773.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1788.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
法律事務司吳義聖吳司長整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長國防採購司趙雅萍趙主任人事參謀次長是劉佩智劉次長情報參謀次長是謝日昇謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威連次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1801.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1818.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔 李次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山 謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德 郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義 陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮 邱參謀長空軍司令部李慶然 李參謀長後備指揮部 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1831.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1860.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
薛淵泉 薛參謀長憲民指揮部 文念忠 文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部 梁永坤 梁參謀長直通電軍指揮部 周文祥 周參謀長軍事情報局 李永康 李執行長電訊發展室 林政委 林執行長國防大學 李承忠 李教育長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1862.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1870.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
國家中山科學研究院 李士強 李院長人事主任 陳榮宏 陳主任總市館長 黃豐英 黃市館長補充介紹 陳俊宇 陳委員請問在場委員對於上次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1891.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1912.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
議事錄有遺漏錯誤或者需要更正之處沒有那我們議事錄確定本日會議邀請國防部長顧立雄報告近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍商購案延宕原因分析以及具體應處作為並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1926.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1947.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席各位委員先進今天應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對國軍軍事工程及軍商購安之關切與知道在此表達誠摯謝意為精進軍事工程執行效能加速軍商購裝備獲得本部持續強化軍事工程專案管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1948.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1959.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
維持台美雙邊密切溝通協調機制及加強旅約管理其實軍事工程如期如指完工與各項軍商購裝備依兵力整建規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1961.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1978.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
進程如期籌獲以建構自我防衛作戰能力接續由國防部軍備局局長李文祥中將就近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及經商購延宕原因分析及具體應處作為向各位委員實施報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1986.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2010.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席 各位委員先進 大家好軍備局局長報告近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍商購案延宕原因分析及具體作法應處作為狀況報告一前言為提升軍事工程執行效能本部強化工程計畫編制審查及預算編類機制加強專業職能訓練其使各軍事工程如期如止完工 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2011.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2030.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
令目前執行中軍商購案部分武器裝備獲得進度延宕在透過各式會議管制及加強履約督訪下軍商購延宕項目已逐漸下降二軍事工程及軍商購案件執行情形落後原因及測定具體做法一軍事工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2031.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2056.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
執行情形 新安專案暨執行103案已完工88案執行中15案其中陸軍九區塘長峰營區兩岸涉及履約爭議工整會及仲裁協會已完成調解及仲裁目前辦理驗收結案令空軍台南機場巨輪校區等兩岸前因建太營造財務問題至進度落後已完成解約重構 決標執行目前進度正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2057.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2073.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
鎮地 訊廠 庫儲及其他建築工程即執行163案以完工60案 其中陸軍長安營區訊廠二機廠等兩案因高鐵營造財務問題無意間停工以一約對訊廠工程案終止契約並啟動解約重構作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2075.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2088.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
二級廠新建工程已由太義營造完成契約拒售復工目前工進正常令陸軍坑之狗訓廠工程前因學保計畫工項內容修訂事計畫期程延展 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2089.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2107.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
展言陸軍已完備計畫修訂程序目前進度正常有關軍事博物館工程一案前因需求調整及結構安全考量辦理變更設計自計畫期程展言已完備計畫修訂程序目前進度正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2108.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2127.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
落後原因分析計畫預算不符市場行情建案單位與可行性評估報告編制階段為依最新營建物價指數及市場行情合理調修經費自計畫預算不符市場行情產生流標或減向減量方式招標造成計畫期程落後 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2128.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2143.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
及追加預算履約爭議及廠商述職工程執行期間應專管 建造及施工廠商對契約及內容設計存有意義致衍生履約爭議影響工進推展 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2144.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2172.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
另未能及時察覺城南廠商財務問題導致工程季度大幅落後雖依契約解約提告求廠及解約重構為以造成計劃期程延宕設計不符需求衍生變更設計因需求檢討未真作業及設計審查階段未及時修正至工程執行階段衍生變更設計影響工具推展局追加預算具體應處作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2175.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2201.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
本部114年3月策判军事工程策进作为及作业指引预定计划执行前一年可行性评估报告审查时机依最新营建物价指数及市场行情调修合理经费编列使预算一次到位另由军备局整合管制各建案单位计划审议及进度管考每月由业管常务次长召开工程检讨会议督管 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2203.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2218.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
為精進履約爭議處理效率履約爭議直接報請行政院工程會申訴審議委員會調解另以修頒工程及技術服務企業範本增訂懲罰性罰則以強化技術服務及施工廠商約束力 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2219.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2239.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
為明確設計需求納編工程專責單位及專家學者召開聯省會議確保設計成果符合計畫目標以減少變更設計頻次依計畫期程順利推展工進二 軍購案執行情形軍事投資類對美軍購案共計二十五案 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2240.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2269.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
執行進度區分為進度超前、正常、延宕等三案再呈如次進度超前為海馬式遠程精準火力打擊系統一案原規劃116年交運之第二批18套發射系統提前於115年第四季交運進度正常即托式2B型高效能仿專甲飛彈等21案其中托式2B型高效能仿專甲飛彈及方陣快炮與全速貨裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2270.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2282.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
魚岸依節點交運進度延宕暨AGM-154西匯彈F-16不拉拐動戰機Mk-48重型魚雷等傷案延宕原因分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2284.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2292.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
一AGM-154C飛彈F-16AB型戰機性能提升案編列新台幣1359億7150萬元自101年至115年執行戰機性能提升以採購AGM-154C等各類型飛彈美方106年同意供售AGM-154C飛彈原規劃於114至115年全速交運 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2311.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2315.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
為因採購最新構型需重啟產線備料及系統發展整合規劃於116至117年全數交運 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2321.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2325.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
F16普拉拐動戰機編列新台幣2472億2880萬元自109年至115年向美採購66架戰機原規劃於115年全數飛反為受產線搬遷重啟及供應鏈中斷等複雜因素影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2341.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2356.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
產生交運風險美方已採兩班至20小時全力趕工我方持續加強各項履約督管作為MARK48縱型魚雷編列新台幣54億6058萬6千元自107年至117年向美採購24枚縱型魚雷以4枚超雷原規劃112至115年完成交運為受供應鏈中斷與重啟產線等因素影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2370.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2391.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
速度調整交運期程規劃115至117年全數交運具體運儲作為針對所有經過案均由台美雙方透過各項會議嚴密管制並依產制情形要求美方修正付款期程避免在裝備未交運時過早付款確保權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2392.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2399.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
商購案 執行情形執行查核金額以上購案共458案現針對進度落後及潛艦國造 原型艦 籌艦及雲豹甲車輪股採購等兩案 摘成如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2407.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2429.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
延宕原因分析潛艦國造原型艦的籌建暗屬國防自主研發載台首次造艦系統整合不易目前待執行主機與電力管理系統及整合式載台管理系統IPMS等兩大系統調校待達成潛航條件後即執行海上測試作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2431.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2454.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
雲豹甲車輪股採購本案系111年執行驗收測試作業時驗收結果不符企業規範判定不合格衍生履約爭議經廠商不符向工程會申請二次調解及民事訴訟造至交貨進度延宕雲豹甲車專案所需的輪股由另三家並列得標廠商生產與於112年組裝交軍具體應處作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2459.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2482.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
原型艦測試器材漸進式的延改策略 協同台船及系統艦原廠共同解決省省規劃測試次序 可執行測試前整備及安全評估確保符合安全與品質前提下完成全艦性的性能驗證 令持續落實履約管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2484.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2513.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
按契約規範驗收如預期將預約計法有關雲豹甲車輪股採購採購案履約爭議以召集公職律師及部聘律師共同研商詳實分析訴訟策略以攻防重點並強化後續訴訟優勢確保本部權益與立場節育本部持續落實工程專責單位管理能力強化專業職能訓練有效管制工程如期完工 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2514.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2520.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
另嚴謹採購契約管理並透過各項管制會議消擬潛在摯愛如期籌貨武器裝備報告完畢 敬請指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2531.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2546.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員時間2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2559.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2565.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 謝謝昭偉早安 大家好我們先請顧部長請顧部長部長早是 陳委員好我想先就這個軍購交付的議題來和部長您做一個討論我們國防部透過辦理對美軍購的這個採購來籌獲各式的這個作戰所需的相關武器裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2586.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2602.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這是我們在建構現代化及不對稱戰力上非常重要的一個工作但是就今天的專報安排的主題顯示在部分軍購案的執行以及裝備交運的進度上可能存在部分的疑義 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2603.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2624.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那我想國安部也必須在能夠公開的部分盡可能向國會也向所有的納稅義務人來說明清楚那先就近期在討論的美方延宕交付軍購的這個金額部分來請教我們部長那這個有許多的這個報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2629.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2657.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
他標題都直接下縮有6000多億的這個台幣的部分這個金額還是還未交付那在美台商業協會的這個會長他表示是目前我們只有總值80億的美元的F16戰機計畫及另外一項金額不到10億美元的這個計畫有所延遲 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2658.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2681.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那如果就國安部這邊提出有延宕的部分則有這個AMG-154C飛彈以及F16V還有MK48縱型魚雷三個案子所以這個實際上國安部目前所估算延宕的這個金額到底是多少那三個這個延宕案加起來的總額又是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2683.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2698.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
跟委員報告 因為之前有提到說6000多億的這個部分 據我們了解這是那個卡托研究所他就美國對台的軍售案 他支會國會的金額並不是延宕的金額這可能要 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2699.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2716.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
說明一下 所以這個6000億這個部分金額是錯誤的沒有發生延宕的金額有這麼高的一個狀況那麼延宕的部分就剛剛委員有提到的就是說最金額最大的當然就是EBITDA這個有80億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2718.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2741.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那另外AGM1517這個大概是一億一千多萬美金然後MK48重型儀錐大概是一億七千七百多萬加起來大概就是八十二億八千多萬美金大概現在有延宕的這個金額大概總額是如此所以就是跟六千億還是有差別嗎八十二億的話換算成不到三千億兩千 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2751.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2754.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
應該是不到對 不到三千億不到三千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2759.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2788.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那我想另外就是針對這個軍購交付延遲的部分先前我們國防部這邊也有說明會透過各式會議嚴密的這個管制那美方也以這個專案的方式來處理對台軍售交付延遲的問題那我們這邊應該也開出相關的這個清單交給對方了那這個部分我想請教部長現在美方專門處理對台軍售交付延遲的是哪一個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2789.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2810.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那這個單位只有針對已經延宕的這個案件還是對於所有未交付的案件都一併來做專案處理美國有成立一個叫做Tiger Task Force就是一個專案小組那是都來監管所有的軍售案的進度就美方的專責單位我們兩國也會藉由定期的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2816.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2839.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們這邊也會有一個駐場集合的機師來督促這個廠商來依期程來產製交運好那除了這個交貨期程的部分另外一方面我們則是對於這個預算的使用部分來做一個討論所有軍購的這個付款都有一定的這個時程那這些案子一旦進到這個產線我們就得付錢那這也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2846.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2868.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這也是我們大家應該都能夠理解的但是如果對方在生產的進度不如預期的時候我們也應該要避免有過早把這個錢付出去的情形先前部長曾經也回應說如果還沒有到應該要付款的時間點我們就不會付款了縱使把錢匯出去也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2869.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2891.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
會到FRB的軍購帳戶當中也還是屬於國防部在控管的並會產生支息針對這個問題我想請教部長我們現在付款的期程是怎麼定的又如何要求美方來修正這個期程確保我們的利益不受損我們大概是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2892.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2916.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
跟美方的軍購案大概從前置的備料跟生產線開始我們會這個就是依照這樣子的一個備料跟生產線的開始我們會付款那以F16B來講的話那因為後來他的交制的交運的這個就是期程有延宕所以我們從113年的第一季是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2917.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2946.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
是不是第一季113年第一季開始我們就就就緩負了就緩負了也就是說就就沒有再負了這樣子好這意思就是說一開始他因為要去備料然後要有一個生產線的建制這個我們是要付一筆錢那之後呢他要按他實際的產製的期程我們來交付那以F16B來看的話呢他因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2947.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2968.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
沒有辦法完成交運所以我們就跟美方就協調就辦理緩護了從113年的第一季開始就沒有再復了現在就沒有再復了是好那另外在113年度這個審計部的審計報告當中有指出我們暫存在FRB的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2969.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2993.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個按款餘額相較於尚未完成這個共補品項資金額高出大概一億多的這個美元那有資金滯留於美方多年的情形那應該要請美方優先退還無需支付的這相關的款項那針對沒有需求的款項我們是否已經要求美方退回金額大概有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2994.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3004.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
跟委員說明就是FRP就是美國聯邦儲備銀行這一個帳戶是我們的帳戶在這個帳戶裡面它如果有支息也是屬於我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3005.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3028.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
現在雙方有檢討等待貸退的美金大概是2億6千4百多萬到目前為止大概退了4千8百多萬大概是快4千9百萬的美金剩下來還有2億1千5百多萬的美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3029.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3045.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們會要跟美方有辦理一個帳戶的清整那他帳戶清整完畢以後也會陸續退還給我們好那這部分也請我們國防部就是如果有比較新的消息再跟我們所有的大眾說明清楚是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3046.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3067.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
接下來我想針對有幾項武器的籌貨部分來跟部長您做討論第一個是我們次增飛彈的部分在今年漢光演習我們也看到多次出現在官兵操作仁溪式次增飛彈的演練當中但國軍現有的應該是美軍先前 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3068.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3093.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
以軍事合作提供的這個裝備我們向美方採購的2621枚人西式飛彈接下來也會陸續交運到台灣那其中第一批500枚的人西式式飛彈和這個發射系統是否確定能在年底前也就是下個月底前能夠交裝完成那後續因應各軍種的這個需求是否還有大量我們徵購的相關規劃我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3100.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3111.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
預期它會在今年的第四季來交付我們現在總共原來500枚現在再增加以後是2621枚 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3115.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3139.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那我想我們現在希望它能夠這個現在它已經重新啟動這個自動化的產線逐漸趕上進度所以我們會在今年的第四季會獲得第一批之後我們陸續再會來應該會陸續來獲得那後續的500枚以外我們大概預計多久會全部交裝完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3141.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3145.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我想有相關的這個期程你要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3147.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3175.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
鮑遠 我們在目前我們既定的期程是到121年121對 這個時間是比較就是當初訂到2121枚第二次發達出需求清單遞出去之後美方給我們的期程是到121但是目前我們已經持續跟美方協調在這個自動化產線開設之後能夠把期程再往前壓縮那後面我們就是依照美方交運的期程來修訂我們相關的這個採購文件好 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3176.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3192.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那這個部分先前討論這個台美共同生產的可能性主要還是以這個無人載具為主那剛剛講的這個次增飛彈除了在美國生產以外他也在德國還有土耳其有開闢這個生產線那去年這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3194.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3222.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
曾經報導說想我們想爭取在台灣來組裝生產這個次增飛彈當時這個議題部長您也回應了沒有這個討論的存在那時隔一年我們剛剛講的這個時程的問題我想再請教部長針對次增飛彈合作的可能性存在後續有沒有可能在台灣來生產組裝的可能我想這個還需要有待跟美方進行溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3223.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3227.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以現在還沒有一個具體的沒有一個具體的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3229.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3251.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那在上個會期行政院的這個施政報告當中我們看到今年起這個入伍一年期的這個義務役新兵會在八週新訓的期間接受無人機還有反裝甲火箭還有仁溪式刺針飛彈等訓練課程那政府在年初預估今年會徵集約9839元的這個一年期的義務役 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3256.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3278.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
但是在我們不確定現有的這個人西式這個次增飛彈的數量而且也缺乏模擬器材的情況之下我們今年以來是如何來落實這個人西式次增飛彈它納入EWE新訓課程的一個規劃那對於這個訓練的裝備器材或是師資我們應該要如何來因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3280.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3295.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
向委員報告陸軍參謀長向您報告第一點我們在目前還沒有這個模擬器獲得的情況下我們是先由我們的兵診中心來依據新訓單位訓練的需求我們已經在今年訓練開始的時候就已經產製 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3296.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3311.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那目前交付新訓單位來使用也訓了6000多人次這方面是沒有問題那後續我們會再尋商先來做一個小批量的採購模擬器那經過驗測合格之後我們會納入這個建案來獲得以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3312.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3328.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那我們在國安部的這個夜報當中也看到我們國防創新小組所規劃在明年籌貨仁溪市這個次增飛彈模擬器我想也是因應接下來這個新到貨的次增飛彈交裝之後我們必須提升的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3329.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3343.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
整備整體的訓練我想再請教部長有關模擬器預計籌貨的時程表要交付給什麼單位就剛剛我們參謀長講的這個部分我們國防部是否有一個更明確的一個規劃的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3346.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3367.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
向委員報告這個我們在這個DIO他所獲得的我們部隊驗測之後我們會分別交付給這個兵艦訓練單位還有駐地單位和新訓旅的駐地的這個有配附刺針飛彈單位還有新訓旅來讓他們滿足訓練的需求詳細的數據下去可以提供給委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3369.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3387.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好 那就以上我們相關這個武器籌貨的部分也請我們國防部持續的追蹤對 我們跟美方會持續來加強然後來趕上這些相關的這些期程好 儘早讓我們所購得的武器能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3389.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3413.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個放在規劃的一個位置上對 像剛剛提到的那個82里面最大的大概2400多億台幣的這個F-16的部分我們有看到美方加進行這個努力那兩班來加來進行這個趕制那現在在線的組裝已經有50架了一個F-16謝謝部長 謝謝參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3421.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3424.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3443.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3447.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
部長早本席呢要延續陳俊宇委員剛剛有關於這個對美經構的這個議題那剛剛部長你有提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3454.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3482.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個F16V BLOCK 軌道的這個戰機目前在線的有50架嘛原先我們這個66架的這個戰機應該是要在115年的時候要全數的這個飛反可是剛剛有報告就是說因為產線搬遷要重啟這個產線還有供應鏈中斷等等因素所以造成整個的這個延盪那我有看到就是說在報告裡面有提到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3483.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3505.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
AGM-154C飛彈其實它現在已經有一個大概有一個規劃的這個雖然是延期延檔可是還是有提出一個時程出來規劃目前是116年到117年全速會交運然後我看到MK-48重型魚雷也是一樣雖然是說我們是延檔的比喻原先的這個交期晚了可能要到4年 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3507.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3529.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
4年的時間才能夠全數的這個交運可是這個F16VBlock 拐動戰機一直都是國人非常注意跟在意的這個對美的這個軍購案因為66架到目前為止當然一架都沒有交付所以針對這個部分的話我們有一個確實的這個交期嗎因為部長剛剛說已經有50架在線上了 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3532.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3551.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
對 我不敢跟委員說明說的是說你到底確定在什麼時候但是我們預期今年的年底應該實駕會組裝完成然後要進行測試的飛行那測試飛行一旦過了之後如果順利的話我們就會獲得交機 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3552.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3575.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那因為在線組裝也有50架所以我們會梗續來掌握這個相關的進度所以我們認為這個整個相關的問題已經在解決之後剩下來的就是組裝還有測試飛行的問題那當然最後是66架能不能在明年的年底之前全數完成我們不敢說但是我們應該在 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3576.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3594.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
明年應該可以看到飛機來飛返郊運所以至少剛剛部長提到的至少會有實駕明年就會來郊運今年就已經完成會完成實駕的組裝那還有待測試的過程那在線的 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3595.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3609.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
連同這10家加起來總共有50家在線組裝所以我想我們要告訴國人就是說這個並不是一個完全沒有並不是沒有進度的狀態而是一個還在全數加 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3610.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3631.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
加班趕工的一個階段那用兩班之二十小時再進行那在線組裝的加起來應該要有五十架所以如果測試順利的話那我想我們明年就會看到X6V的一個教育OK 所以部長覺得說如果是順利的話大概明年就會完成這個教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3632.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3659.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
就是說66架有沒有辦法在明年全數完成交運我們覺得當然有一定的風險跟挑戰但明年一定可以看得到F16B的交運這樣子OK好那這部分的話當然美方也可能要積極我剛剛看報告就是說他們其實也在加班趕工當中OK好那再來的話再來我要看我要跟部長討論的是有關也就是軍事工程員當的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3660.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3676.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
像這個軍事博物館其實在去年第一個會期本期就曾經跟國防部關心過工程延宕之事剛剛我們有看到國防部有提到落後的原因但它這落後的原因整個寫下來的話其實很多人看了其實也覺得說非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3677.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3688.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
不能接受跟蠻瞎的一些內容譬如說我們會遇到不良的廠商不良的廠商然後後來又提高又節約又重購計劃的預算一開始這部分就沒有規劃好計劃的預算不符市場的行情然後後來又不斷地追加這個預算我記得說一開始應該是17億到後來不斷地追加到52億這當中還經歷了好幾次的變更設計等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3705.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3731.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那本來是2023年要完工那現在我記得上個會期沈博洋委員曾經也都是安排了這個考察也說今年10月份會竣工那現在呢又要延到2026年我想請教一下這個軍事博物館到底什麼時候可以完工就是一延再延這個是不只是一波三折是好幾折請問一下這部分進行的狀況是如何那目前呢我們到底整個工程到底完成了多少請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3733.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3754.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
委員好 我是鄭辦事主任 省立方中將來跟整個案子來跟委員做一個說明有關軍博館這段實際上17到52這個中間經歷了非常長從103年一直到他真正這個簽約的這個時間經過非常長的一段時間那麼實際上他核定的最早開標核定工程款就是34億 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3756.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3778.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
在這個過程當中它本身的量體有很大的改變原本地上層跟地下層到現在整個的樓地板面積都大概增加了兩倍的一個狀況那麼最主要原因就是在當時在工程設計階段的時候考量到那個地段它本身是一個比較高價值地段是希望說這個量體不要太小 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3779.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3805.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那麼免得讓它整個的這個不符合當地開發的一個價值所以整體的狀況在核定預算的時候它的預算的基準就是46億所以並沒有說從17億到52億那17億當初是怎麼來的呢17億 一開始就說規劃的時候是17億您現在說是46億這部分可以解釋一下嗎因為大家現在都在說17億暴漲到52億這個部分能夠解釋一下怎麼回事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3806.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3831.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
十七億是從最早最早在開始規劃在一百零三年左右時間在開始規劃的時候一個最基準的一個數字那麼其後從一百零三年一直到整個工程的實際簽約的這段時間經歷了它本身量體的倍增大概幾乎兩倍的量體然後又經歷了新冠肺炎這段時間整個物價上漲等等這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3832.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3855.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
關鍵的時間大概在109年的時候工程會有做了一個統一的調整就針對公共工程因為你不管是原物料人力通通都做上漲了以後他把公共工程整體預算都做了一個調升指導所以在這種狀況之下我們真正簽約的時間核定的一個工程預算是46億那麼這是有關於主體工程的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3856.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3871.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
另外我們用了大概有8億的預算這是軍頭的預算主要是針對博物館除了主體工程以外內裝裡面的不管是展出的東西或者是展期的規劃等等這些是規劃所以整個案子的狀況是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3872.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3897.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那目前進度來說大概是在72%左右比他計劃的這個進度略為超前我們還是緊迫的去管制這個案子就不管是包含設計端建造端還有專案管理端我們是業主從業主角度去督導這三方去強烈去合作希望讓整個工程維持在這個按照他原本進度上來去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3898.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3917.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我想請問一下當初我們在估算整個工程的這個我們要耗費多少工程的時候當初我們只是算到主體工程的部分其實後來我有發現有追加了一些其他的可能是內部的設計等等當初都沒有算在內嗎當初我們都沒有算在內嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3918.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3945.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
因為它就是區分兩段主體工程建造是用銀改基金這大概在整個案子當初設計的時候就這樣那麼裡面內裝包含它的展物的規劃然後我們現在所成長的這些古物從當初軍事博物館然後移到現在來我們中間不管是保管還要做一些修復的工作這些都需要一些經費所以這個是另外用了8億的軍頭的預算來去做維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3946.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3961.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
好 那到底軍事博物館什麼時候能完工依照目前進度主體工程的部分我們計畫是在明年的5月完工主體建築 那對外營運的部分呢對外營運概略的時間是在116年 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3964.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3987.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
116年、2027年才會開始營運因為這個部分 說實在的軍事博物館國人其實產生了很多的疑慮不管是它的營造的成本也好或者是說它延宕的過程、理由、原因其實都引起了很大的疑慮我想這部分還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3989 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4005.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們國防部這邊多做解釋但因為我看你們的落後原因的分析真的是讓人家其實還蠻咬頭的我們居然會這麼大的一個公家的單位居然會遇到不良的廠商等等還要解約還要重構這當中就花了應該蠻多的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4007.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4026.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
再來因為時間的關係我現在請教最近我們有看到網路上面有一個報導或是說流傳好了就是說我們國防部將針對司官免資的部分制度進行改革本席的辦公室甚至也接到了電話就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4028.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4038.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
也很擔心會擔心就是說往後是不是說這個制度改了下去之後是不是領不到這個月退縫這個部分的話是不是說我想請國防部來做一個解釋因為假設就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4045.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4070.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這事關是25歲的時候入伍的話如果你現在改為17就是17年他就必須要強制退伍的話那可是現行的這個法令是取得月退奉的資格是在45歲那我們有沒有到時如果要修改這個政策的話到時是怎麼樣來做對接也就是說強制退伍跟月退奉的這個資格我們要如何去做對接這是會做調整的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4071.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4096.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我想跟委員報告第一點就是說這個都還在一個研議的階段沒有形成一個政策這個還沒有報到我這邊來那第二個就是說他主要的部分應該是在您這個圖上有提到的是在那個分值分等就是說將這個士官長的這個分值分等上面再增加主要的重點應該是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4097.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4117.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
上面因為大家都有看到就是說就說營級以上或者旅級以上軍隊以上司令部以上的部分的他事實上這些的如果沒有將他再多加幾個職等的話他會造成這個越往上走的士官長他拿到的薪水會比這個連級的士官長的薪水要來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4119.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4145.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
因為連級的士官長才拿得到戰鬥部隊的加級營級以上就拿不到了所以你現在講的是新增軍階的那個部分是不是對所以重點是在這個部分那至於剛剛委員關心的所謂的中士下士的這個退伍的時間我想這個都還沒有任何的定案這個還有待在我們進一步的這個討論所以有關這個網路上傳說他沒有辦法領到退碰要如何然後就 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4146.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4168.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
有類似這樣的一個狀況我想這個都沒有形成一個政策的共識所以這部分的話可能就是我們目前是擺在就是說新增軍階的這個部分就是特等士官場的這部分其實重點其他前面的這個強制退伍的這個年限等等要提前這部分到目前為止是還沒有成行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4169.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4183.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
沒有成型那當然往上走的這些特等的士官長我們當然也要討論但是他真正最大的重點是在將士官這個制度還是要做長留久用我想長留久用還是我們對士官制度的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4184.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4209.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
如果說前面這個部分比如說我剛才提到的就是中下市強制退股的部分其實也就是中下市的我們的弟兄有來聯絡有在講說這部分他們很擔心就是說到時如果說真的是17年的年限到了他們還不到45歲我如何取得葉新鳳的這部分我想就算是有進入到這部分的討論其實應該都會要做對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4211.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4232.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
不會維持現在的這個制度嗎我想沒有到現在為止就我這邊來理解沒有17年就一定要強制退伍這樣的一個政策也不會往這方面來做規劃嗎因為這個部分都是他們在事關跟事關之間的一個研析所以後續要如何還要報到國防部這邊來我會再做一個審慎的研議OK 好 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4238.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4241.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席我們有請顧部長顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4261.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4286.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
是 陳委員部長早安今天特別聚焦在所有的軍購商購因為延遲交貨或產生一些其他問題當然今天看到國防部以及相關的同仁大家共同努力希望在這個中間能夠盡量縮短延宕的時期不過在專案管理部分有一些看法要請部長稍微注意一下我們也請空軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4293.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4316.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
就是有关这个F6V Block 70当初签署发价书的时候美方有向我们表达要迁移生产线厂房要移置吗没有各位听到的只是生产线重新移开厂房换你知道从哪换到哪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4320.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4344.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
從德州換到格林維爾 到南卡的格林維爾對 從德州的Fort Worth然後整個搬到南卡州的Greenvale德州生產線是不是關掉 不是因為他還有其他的構型在身他把它做一個切割這個在簽署發價書的時候因為沒有提所以產生的衝擊等於說美方沒有給我們一個預警時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4346.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4353.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
另外就是我們的駐場現在是派到什麼層級的人專案管理一位中校 兩位少校 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4354.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4381.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我特別要強調我們派出去的專案管理人才就像以軍種來講並不只聚焦於兵科甚至是有關後勤補給採購他的專業這個錢不能省因為有月會 有忌諱他要把所有的專案管理中間看到的瑕疵問題隨時報回來必要的時候我們要請駐場代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4382.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4409.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
回國來做專案報告這個是要大家努力的因為這個過去我們都疏忽了軍種在培養專案管理的人才數量上顯然不足也就是隨著國防的預算大幅成長的時候我們只看到的兵科軍官我們就是飛行員的座艙比飛機的妥善率但是我們沒有看到整個專案管理中這些駐場人其實花的是小錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4410.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4439.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
如果你多两个人能够及时地把一些讯息或者跟美方沟通以及军事代表团相互沟通这种情况下我们三个军种都要做改进这个是现实问题不是谁不努力而是我们人才不足举一个例来讲就是国防大学的管理学院就专案管理理论上我们如果有一个重大的军事投资案其实可以委托国防大学 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4440.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4454.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
開一個專案班哪怕是兩個禮拜 三個禮拜不涉及機密所有合約過程 軍售過程這個管理東西通通要在國防大學開班我就舉個例來講我們陸軍的海馬斯這個已經交貨了 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4460.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4486.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
甚至有人说提前交货专案管理里面只有准时交货提前不是好事提前你的库房人才备料都还没备便结果硬体来了提前交货不能延宕当然更不可那请问海马斯火箭它的数据化的这种职管系统现在在陆军战院请问教育长陆军战院有更新课程吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4487.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4494.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
跟委員報告那個有關於國軍軍力同時建範開放作客開放作客這部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4497.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4516.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
班隊名稱我們是開為軍事投資建案班區分為上下半年我們有各開訓一次訓期是4週週限對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主然後課程我們既有作業規定工業合作跟產能評估作業還有採購計畫編制作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4519.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4534.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
對 三類二項有關跟委員所說的數據的這個部分這個我目前沒有掌握我回去會去跟我們的教官取一個最新的數據我覺得整個我們的國軍不管是任理事或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4535.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4564.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
这个所谓整平跟资源是这个对于国军新的专案出来要给国防大学做指导不是靠教官教官他根本没有在美国驻场过他教什么东西尤其是合约军售的条款跟商售的条款这个要用过去参与过专案的人在那个地方大家整合起来来教这个课因为现在就说你案子成立了可是没有去驻场以前你背景都不知道也不是有经验的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4564.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4590.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那请问海马斯的这个全部数位化的系统啊我就问在陆院你教了课了没有请问你现在的UTM公元2000年的纸本你现在还在用它做演习那你这个教学不能够只参更新你回来这些毕业的人回到部队去他心后观念这个落差非常大了我一直在这个质询过程中强调所有的重点 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4591.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4609.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
不是預算多少而是你有多少人才因為沒有足夠的人才對這些先進的裝備完全因為我沒有構想我希望國防大學跟聯義次長室這邊共同努力趕快把它課程不只是在管院 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4610.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4623.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
三軍的子參學院對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後你都要交貨了你課程準則教範都來不及更新另外就是說這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用保養手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4624.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4642.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
原本是英文版的部隊第一批人派出去授訓他會他回來了兩年三年調差他也沒有回學校去繼續留下來教所以會產生一些落差這個部分我們是希望大家在這個部分要強化要努力這是第一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4647.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4660.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
您有要反應嗎是 包委員只是做技師的次長就如同委員所提示的其實每一件的武器裝備跟系統最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4660.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4683.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
能夠結合聯合作戰的需求能夠納入五年兵力整建計劃裡面逐年籌購並且按照計劃專案計劃的期程來去建構包含準則的建構並且納入到教則教範以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力這部分在我們的各項的計劃作業從採購計劃當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃這個向委員做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4690.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4718.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好 謝謝我們下面再一個問題就是因為在美台國防工業的時候就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造台灣之盾台灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統因為陸軍 海軍 空軍整個系統的指管裡面它的美方廠商跟中科院它的背景不同這次台灣之盾是一個理想很重要但是有規劃其成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4719.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4739.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那知道什么时候完成吗还是把现有的武器系统全部做整合过去连山曾经讲过我们要怎么讲去中心化那是指地面部队我强调了如果你去中心化你这个盾就没有了就到处是漏洞了所以一定是一个完整的系统那这个系统啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4741.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4756.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
是一個理想的那預計要多少年今天來講只是一個構想推出來那要三個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標最主要就是我們講到的這個人才在這個軍售裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4758.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4772.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
美方讲得很清楚不赚不赔不罚所以没有什么法律诉讼所有的问题是政府对政府而且他要求你不可以以军总代表去跟厂商谈细节那不可以的禁止的 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4773.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4801.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所有駐場的問題就要他看到的問題他要回饋駐場看到的問題他是跟工程師談的話毫無作用因為每一個美國的廠他都有律師跟會計師你不可以逾越你的合約規範他的合約是他跟美國的合約然後美國的合約是根據我們的LOR簽的細節所以這個部分我們希望大家把法條要搞清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4802.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4831.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
讲得很清楚其他的我也希望这边让我们的立法院同仁了解美军收的是专案管理费用我们不可以去查虽然做专案review的时候我们有派人对口是美军你不能跟厂商直接谈所以在这个过程里面你看到美军一个飞机申购作业流程哪个阶段他可以挡你哪个阶段通过但不代表拿到了出口许可 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4832.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4860.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你就一切照進度那特別要講到商售問題因為商售問題碰到的是什麼就是說供應鏈裡面的紙合約商被其他廠商併購了就產生延遲交貨了專案管理人被換掉了這些東西都要有法律背景的專業跟採購後勤的人參與這種就不是我們兵科軍官能夠直接去參與的了這個部分我就強調還是在國防大學的教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4861.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4881.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
以前在过去裁剪我们编装缘合之前过去军总都有五或四它是一个专案管理现在回到各计划处回到后勤处所以它又分开来了专案管理的人擅在各地到底是哪个长官负责全面了解我们需要在这个地方大家来努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4884.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4903.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
潛艦也是一样因为它是商售请问如果一个15年的计划20年的计划它的出口许可是几年呢没有15年的出口许可请问如果是一个长期层的合约你跟厂商签的你的美金的汇率跟台币是用多少固定值呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4904.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4914.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
15年到20年間的製造人力成本工時分攤這個都是要專案管理這個絕對不是兵科軍官一般可以了解的所以在這個裡面軍總的律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4918.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4941.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
台湾不管是汉祥的或是台船的或是其他制造厂的律师以及产生问题后要产生仲裁到第三地区的律师这个团队我想部长是专家了在这个地方您要多给指导因为现在军种来讲大家看到都是很乐观的指数而不敢去面对那种法律上的挑战问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4943.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4971.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
最后一个我特别再讲这个是从汉光演习以来我们每天都面临的没有少过的那是今天早上八点半我请连山次长帮忙您看一下这个问题赖总统说海巡署肩负防卫执法救援及国际合作多重工作是国安治安平安的第一道防验就金门外岛来讲禁限制水域是金防部的责任还是海巡的责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4974.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4993.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
報委員整體的這個整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃那當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁限制水域當中一些狀況的應處那會整合運用包含海巡署包含我們防衛部的相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4995.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5015.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我這樣解釋 您講的是理念我現在告訴你這是今天早上8點半的15條中共的商船在你的禁限制防衛部無法應處 你毫無作為愛國執法理念 我尊重當初我們的政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5017.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5044.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
从头到尾因为你在那边没有海军的舰艇兵力你只有海巡的执法兵力今天早上15条商船在你的禁县制水域通过防卫司令部是无法反应请问这个图你们有看到吗今天早上的另外有10条商船在我们家的前院也好后院也好毛破他也不给停车费他干嘛他排队准备进厦门港 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5045.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5065.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
比较麻烦的是有30条商船渔船我们看不到全部是把AS关掉的灰色的他全部停在这边以这么庞大的数字请问金房部有能力处理吗海巡署如何处理这个是每天压力越来越大部长您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5067.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5085.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
跟委員報告我想國安部是就這個兩岸人民關係條29條去國安的立場我們劃設這個境縣市水域那當然委員應該也能夠理解這個境縣市水域因為金門過於靠近這個中國大陸的一個本土所以劃過境縣市水域等於就是進入中國的領海這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5086.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5110.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那所以相關的這個29條我們劃設了之後呢我們就這個以這個不撐高衝突的委員的情況之下我們有海巡來做事法的一個質詢那當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照這個中國大陸的船舶他們進入的這個狀況來做事切的一個應酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5111.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5132.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
这个部分我想海巡跟海军还是会相互扮演一个互为支援的一个角色我认同部长的说法了我把现况告诉你这个现在看到的现象远超过你的负荷理论上因为它不是我的领海它是境限制水域它没有办法享有无害通过但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5133.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5155.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他吃你豆腐他就從你家門口大概就在近的距離大概6000碼就在你旁邊經過另外就是下毛下毛有的時候停一天有時候停兩天現在用軟體全部可以監控得到事實上是不是每天早上中午前這個狀況都有回報到我們國防部或者你自己根本就可以掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5156.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5173.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
现在是因为这些不遵照法规的把AIS关闭的船的数量太多那我们的海巡远超负荷他不可能每条船去临检去驱逐那这个现象持续延续下去我们如何处置 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5175.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5193.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
在這個金門這個水域上面我剛剛也有已經講到了就是說商船中國大陸的這個商船的部分進入淨線是水域我們看看他要對於我們的危害的一個程度我想我們做一個適切的應出這個是現實上我們必須要考量他對於我們的這個進入的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5196.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5218.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
程度到底是如何但是我們當然相關還是會做一些警告等等的那警告無效我們再試這個狀況的部分來再看決定要不要做進一步的一個升高的作為但是我想在這個金門的附近的水域的維持對海巡來講的確是一個非常辛苦的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5220.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5244.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我想就是站在國防部跟海委會陸委會在這個部分要做溝通也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作未來來講是一個障礙我們不希望人家占我們便宜 占到你門口最主要一個嚴重問題當商船在這邊下錨 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5247.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5266.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
他會排放污水也就是說他會把金門附近的水域都污染掉了那對金門的漁民來講是不公平的那另外一個就是把AIS關掉就代表他隱匿他的行蹤你不知道他的門牌號碼傳籍那這種情況下做對我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5268.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5283.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個反向滲透觀察那這種作為它是持續在做的那這個部分我希望國防部海委會以及陸委會大家在這個理念上要做溝通怎麼解套因為這個現象持續發生我每天都做 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5284.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5305.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
早中晚都做我都在觀察所以每一次的時候我會問各位這是今天早上的那你如何應處那你不能講海委會現在海巡署在增加制造船若干年後增加多少條那是明天的事我們只講今天如何應處這個地方要大家努力關注這也是所謂的你的一個所謂的台灣防衛盾裡面的一個element |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5306.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5323.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
今天質詢到這個地方是我想委員指教我們針對海域的執法會考慮到這個航運安全然後海洋漁業的資源漁民的權益跟還有軍事安全的這個部分來做一個比例的一個原則的世界應酬這樣子好謝謝接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5337.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5339.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
馬文君委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席 麻煩請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5357.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5377.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
部長早部長剛剛其實有說到就是說我們對美軍購的部分這個有延宕這個不是隨便說說在去年中央社發布的新聞裡面美國眾議院老虎小組向眾院外委會有遞交一份報告指出美國軍售交付延遲情況嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5380.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5397.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
光是台灣就有19項未完成的武器採購總而達到220億美元部分可能延到2027年交付甚至部分是沒有交貨日期的這是美國中醫院外國軍事銷售老虎小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5398.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5422.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
他所做的一個報告我想這個是非常明確的所以今天剛剛聽到有一些在那裡做的那個說明我是覺得有點避重就輕而且是非常離譜我們先談一些就是近期我們有看到這個陸軍裝甲旅跟機部旅實施陸聖一號的部分那我們看到他在那個陸上他整個他的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5426.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5432.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
零件他就可能噴飛出去那這個部分有是什麼狀況有掌握了嗎 調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5436.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5461.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
校委員報告這個案這個第一個這個發生這樣的事故之後單位是除了先協助傷患送醫之外沒關係我們簡單就好了噴飛的零件是什麼有一些是這個履帶零件裡面的固定固定他承載人的中央導齒那他就是因過因為一個長距離的行駛導致他的鬆脫 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5463.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5471.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
確實有這樣的情況我們看到圖片這裡有一個零件它是一般民眾在家裡面使用的那個腳帖 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5473.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5490.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
報告委員 這個我有下去做個瞭解那這個跟我們戰車上面所屬的零件目前研判不是應該是這個鏡頭裡面在現場的原本的物件參謀長 你有掌握狀況嗎有這是從我們車上掉下來的對不對報告 這個這是從我們車上掉下來的對不對我跟單位查證不是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5498.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5503.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
車上履帶有掉下來零件但是不包含這個東西目前掌握是這樣這是後照鏡對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5504.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5510.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
沒有後照鏡我們戰車原本是沒有後照鏡沒有沒有可是我們在過程當中我們加裝上去因為其實在道路的系統上面其實它整個狀況可能是比較複雜的所以有些車子裝上了這個參謀長回去再了解一下因為我們不是要指責因為在台灣的道路上面我們戰車加載在民車當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5530.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5555.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這可能是有一定的風險而且我們道路不是那麼大可是如果你調查以後這個結果跟我們掌握的不一樣那我們的調查是有問題的回去掌握以後我們下次再討論這個你這個腳帖是不是從我們上面掉下來的那個行車記錄器或者那個錄影其實大概都會有你去查清楚以後再回答那另外我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5556.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5562.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
剛剛應該參謀長是說不是沒關係 因為我們掌握的是就是說這個部分可能再查查清楚我們現在要說的是如果你需要加裝因為戰車上一般是不需要那你要加裝它如果說反光會不會對我們的戰術作為有所影響因為它會造成反光所以一般戰車它可能沒有加裝這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5579.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5593.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
可是如果是在我們現有的交通環境底下它可能需要的時候你就必須把它做好不是你想要裝什麼就裝什麼你必須要綠定如果它是需要的你所有的車那你要裝就都裝應該怎麼裝就把它裝好那你自己想裝就裝那個有的有 有的沒有那個對我們整個尤其是我們的主戰裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5607.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5625.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
做這樣的一個隨意的調整或是自己改裝這個都是很嚴重的問題這個部分你們再查清楚那如果有就做一個適切的規範如果有需要那你就應該要綠定那如果沒有那為什麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5627.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5656.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我是簡單向您報告一下過去的確在戰車出去裝與不裝這方面有過做過一個研討那位戰車本身車框就已經達到3.6米多那如果再交到後視鏡其實反而更容易招致跟人家機車或是其他車輛的這個事故那基本上我們都是藉由車長在他車長位置的提示那委員的您的該的指導是說實質上如果真的需要還是要去研討 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5657.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5665.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那這個部分我是就這一次我們的操演和過去我們已經研究過相關的議題沒關係 那提供調查報告時間的關係 你把這一次如果不是因為這個那是什麼其他的原因那他為什麼會噴飛那就把調查報告提供給我們委員會另外我們在偽商服裝供售站的這個部分部長不曉得有沒有了解他這一次因為過去我們就是因為希望有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5685.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5699.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
改變過去國軍服裝定期定向定量的公補模式因為有時候大家可能缺襪子有時候可能缺內衣有些人缺的是不一樣的可是我們採取定期定向定量當他有些可能鞋子穿得破破爛爛可是他鞋子還沒有撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5702.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5714.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
發了一堆的襪子可能他也穿不了所以我們希望是做這樣的改變可是我們看到在整個服裝供售站的部分它在從開始推動到現在其實它發生過很多包括我們國軍可能有不同的有很多不滿的一個問題好像顯然也沒有去做改善我想今天先了解一下我們在年度契約裡面以前我們是開口契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5731.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5738.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
他來採購多少 就計價就按他實際的那個採購數量算對不對那這一次我們給廠商有保障價格是嗎報告這個在這個所訂定年度7月80%他這個基本上是為了鼓勵廠商參標的意願但是我們沒有訂這個的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5756.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5759.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
你之前沒有訂的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎為什麼要保障80%這個會產生兩個問題第一個就是徐喬欣委員之前說的他的毛巾價格非常高我們在外面可能20塊30塊都可以買到過去也是可是你訂價居然入均高達110 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5779.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5805.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
你變成你的定價很高因為你要保障他的價格他點數在年底必須把它用完如果你用不完的時候你就去買其他很貴的東西不然就是買很多不必要的東西這不是我們設計這些這個服裝供售站的重要的目的我們不是要圖利廠商我們也不是要保障廠商可以獲利而是要顧及我們所有國軍弟兄他在需求需要的時候他可以立即可以得到他需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5807.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5825.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
所以為什麼要保障百分之八十你為什麼不是七十為什麼不是六十為什麼是八十我向您報告這個契約訂定保障百分之八十這個是在三軍的服裝供售站我剛才有向您報告就是為了讓廠商有參標的意願你沒有訂的時候沒有人來投標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5827.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5844.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
都有都有都有所以為什麼要保障80%這是我們覺得合約裡面非常不合理的地方因為你保障了廠商的價格可是你們有要求他必須在所有國軍弟兄因為很多人都說當我需要服裝應該要什麼size或者需要鞋子的時候我 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5844.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5867.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
我卻買不到 包委員也要容我向您報告有罰則嗎 官兵的這個9860的點數我們主要的 沒有 有沒有罰則啦你現在有他的保障 你有沒有罰則 包委員我們沒有要求他年度內一定要把這9860支用完畢他主要是依據他的扶植條例還有整個他的補充上的需要 不用把它花完嗎沒有強制 年體沒有歸零嗎 沒有沒有強制 沒有強制要求 那過去為什麼都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5871.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5880.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那只是為了保障官兵權益會去單位去做一個提醒去做一個了解那你過去就是這樣子啊所有官兵都是認為這樣子啊所以在年底的時候他會把它用完那個過去一直都是這樣我現在講的是你保障了商人的權利以後你有沒有罰則比如說他沒有提供當我需要的時候我一直訂不到我要我要Msize的服裝可是我一直訂不到你有沒有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5900.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5907.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我也好 我是國防財務室主任有沒有罰則 每個契約都有定罰則什麼樣的罰則 這個部分有什麼樣的罰則那扣點數達到30點那就比如扣10萬就是不同的情形你每年保障他10億以上他這個標的價格大概66億他連標5年 你都不知道他好不好你已經給他做5年 5年你還保障他每年80% |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5925.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5929.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
的獲利那這一個部分你甚至沒有罰則你剛剛說罰則是點數點數才10萬大家可以再去想看看我們之前為什麼說像潛艦或者其他的完全沒有罰則這個部分我們要求你們再去做檢討因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法在這裡你保障保障廠商保障非常的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5948.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5953.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
可是你對官兵的保障你的罰則卻沒有而且不倫不類這個部分你檢討以後再提供我們更詳細的報告另外我們要看到的是剛剛有提到要我補充一下所有的罰款是累加的他是依據不同的這個違約的情形是累加我剛剛講說他舉例他累加多少他可以解約你告訴我累加多少可以解約 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5974.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5980.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個每個月都有累加多少可以解約用簡單的讓大家知道的比如說要累加到多少點數他就會被解約這個我們可以跟委員報告你現在沒有嗎你保障80都有那我們一直在強調的你為什麼延宕你為什麼沒有辦法保障我們國軍所有的福利或者我們國防部應該有的福利你們現在都已經標出去了你現在這個回答不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6004.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6006.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
在什麼樣的情況之下他必須被解約 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6010.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6022.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
回去那回去以後把這個就是你們說明清楚然後如果這是不合宜的合約部長是專業的我們請部長看過以後這個如果有問題這個甚至有些人來報告的是什麼人是從我們軍中退出去的以前是監管的人員他現在可以代表廠商可以出面來做報告這個部分不需要查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6037.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6044.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
然後你保障的是廠商的他的福利跟利益然後我們所有國軍的應該有的一個保障卻講不出來這個部分我們要求回去以後把它更詳細今天我們看到這個報告是非常非常可惡而且不尊重我們立法院你總共才六頁我們要的詳細的資訊其實都沒有六頁你到昨天禮拜天下午一點才用電子傳過這些檔案 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6066.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6071.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這上個禮拜就定的題目我們沒有辦法做更周全的準備像你們剛剛提供的給委員如果是錯誤的資訊那我們完全沒有辦法去做比較比如說剛剛講到軍博館軍博館從17億到32億到46億到54億這個中間他除了他的量體變大是17億變32億那一段因為他從原來的兩棟然後變成比較大的量體那個已經把金額增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6096.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6099.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
可是你後來又變成46億後來46億裡面其實我們當初都有去看過也做過簡報都跟我們之前的委員因為現在都是新的有些可能不知道他之前去看的時候他就是已經連內部的裝潢應該有的全部都有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6113.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6118.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
有些我們有意見的我們有疑慮的你們還幫他們說的說明的非常非常清楚我們都我現在比較質疑的是為什麼都幫廠商講話我們今天為什麼說延宕這個部分很清楚剛剛講的內容是錯的他的引改基金照理說引改基金根本也不應該做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6134.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6139.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
然後你後面增加的公務預算內裝的部分也是後來加進去的8億才後來又加裝公務預算這個本來103年他從110年核定以後到112年要完工後來變成到114年因為114年他們又發生問題我們只發了300萬又給他8000萬而且還延了300多天到115年才讓他完工然後我們說他的進度超前這叫超前嗎你已經幫他往後延了 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6164.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6189.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
然後他現在按照這樣的公敬你說他是超前這是嚴重侮辱我們立法院還有我們今天其實很多剛剛提到的包括我們的海昆或者我們剛剛我們有講到那個是眾議院裡面老虎小組提出來的報告他欠我們中華民國就是有220億美元這不是外面隨便說說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6191.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6193.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們現在提出來只有三項我們的魚叉飛彈呢魚叉飛彈當初要建案的時候是用戰備急需建案的本來是5年的期程現在變成10年剛剛聽到報告的時候好像變成12年了你到121年才會完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6209.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6222.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我想要請教一下今天如果你要參加婚禮你自己是新郎官你下個月要舉辦婚禮本來你訂的西裝應該是下個月要到結果他跟你說下下個月才會給你那你婚禮就過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6226.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6230.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們現在不是說我們現在很緊張嗎剛剛說F16、80、2024年還有保加利亞2025年他們都比我們晚簽約可是他們都比我們早拿到他們已經接莊了我們到現在都還沒有拿到我們不是去檢討我們應該有的作為而是一直不斷的不管是廠商國內的廠商也好或者包括對美的軍事採購我們都在幫他找理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6253.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6254.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
而且還說進度正常你通通把他往後延當然進度正常我剛剛說的他的西裝下個月要給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6263.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6268.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那是因為他跟你訂的騎乘你已經把他往後拉了這樣已經過了婚禮我們要的是什麼我們今天你們在要預算的時候都說非常的急迫這個都是有戰備急需可是當他落後的時候我們找各種理由幫所有的廠商去解套而且還不斷的付錢他除了減項減量加錢不然就是幫他延期 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6288.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6290.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們看到就這樣可是我們在報告裡面完全沒有看到這些資料我們要的是具體的資料我們要的是國防部可以真正去改變我們為什麼會發生這樣的情況而且比其他的單位都還要高花的錢比人家多做的比人家慢做的比人家差 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6308.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6323.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這是應該的嗎我們今天要開這個會的目的是希望真正可以落實真的找出問題點而不是我們現在都說進度正常我看到每一件都進度正常那他們美國眾議院為什麼要說他們延宕他們自己都說延宕了我們說他進度正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6328.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6333.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
時間的關係如果我們沒有辦法提供這些都是延宕的照理說我們都有原來都有資料我們國防部的資料是最齊全的你從什麼時候建案什麼時候開始然後應該要什麼時候結案這中間發生什麼樣的過程你有什麼樣的調整其實我們都有很好的記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6350.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6362.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
如果我們沒有辦法提供 那我們禮拜三就再辦一次你的時間如果準備不夠你沒有辦法提供足夠的這樣的資訊給本委員會我覺得我們應該要慎重的去關心這一件因為我們的國防預算不斷在增加如果我們包括管理的人才都不足剛剛陳委員講到的如果我們管理人才都不足你3000億 6000億預算的時候都沒有辦法做好那你憑什麼9000億甚至超過一兆的時候我們可以做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6378.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6386.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個部分這都是人民的納稅錢所以我們希望我們好好的去正視這個問題怎麼樣去改變他應該有的應處作為好不好包委員我們簡單的回應一下有關於美國眾議院去年的那個12項這12項裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6396.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6411.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那個托42B型飛彈已經全數交裝標槍也交裝海馬斯也已經全部交裝M1A2T也已經即將最後一批明年第二季的時候28輛就會到那你就把它列清楚嘛所以因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6411.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6414.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
你今天都可以在這裡講你為什麼你的報告裡面不把它寫清楚當初眾議院他說的220億美金他延宕的部分你把它列出來然後哪些交裝這樣大家清清楚楚不是很好嗎你今天你在這裡講我們沒有辦法事先知道啊所以我們在準備的時候我們要怎麼問 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6430.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6445.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
報告員對不起因為我們原本收到的指示是說要去檢討目前落後的案項來檢討後面怎麼樣改進那因為沒有理解到您這一段有關於相關的資料已經趕上進度那再補充好不好那再補充好謝謝謝謝馬委員各位先請回喝口水下面我們要請黃仁委員來質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6473.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6493.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長還有海津的參謀長部長請是 黃委員好是 部長有些事情也是要讓你了解但是我請邱參謀長來回答這個問題我們也要找出一個問題出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6498.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6524.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
有關於在我們的玉山縣是海鯨首燒也是最大的頓擊的一個兩棲船塢運輸艦但是最近出了個問題這個螺旋槳的葉片斷裂的這個狀況那另外就是斷裂的狀況是不是常常頻繁 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6526.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6538.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那斷裂之後 這個羅先生講的斷裂會造成怎麼樣的一個風險那另外就是 是不是材質的問題還是這個設計的問題麻煩常務長你來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6545.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6574.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
是委員好海軍參謀長跟您做報告那他在任務款來的時候他的這個右車的五片中間有一片的確在末端的部分有這個受損的情形那我們經過水下的這個檢查完整檢查之後那發覺這個部分是他的那個面他是非常的這個切齊非外力的碰撞所以我們經過調查人為環境跟外力之後我們會配合這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6575.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6602.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
台船的原廠來做一個跟公正第三方會做一個完整的一個噪音分析那平常來講這個車業應該不至於造成如果不是外力造成的這個我們會納入後續的這一個的這個分析跟調查那如果說是非屬於這個人力的部分那我們會請這個船長部分針對這個部分會做一個後續會有一個協調他會在另外幫我們車制必要的這個車業給我們以上是說明因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6604.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6631.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個玉山劍是你們這個海津棟位最大的一個金券所以它具有代表一個意義那所以它的問題存在的話這個是會延伸到其他的這一些它的基建我們就比如說玉山劍在2022年的時候九葉交建 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6633.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6642.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那2023年的6月成軍但服役不到三個月這個他的走診套就發現了謀損的嚴重那這個後來調查 有調查了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6647.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6673.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
跟委員報告 我們調查完呢是 原因是它的軸套的部分的一個材質那因為 而原型艦它在相關的一個測試跟它的使用都有在保固期間後來我們也用保固的期間我們又回船廠的船塢裡面現在已經完成了這一個它的材質的更換那目前測試都是正常那針對這個部分因為有影響到我們權益所以後面它的延長保固目前也持續在中 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6674.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6695.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以可見 是不是材料 材質的問題 是不是是 現在初步判斷是它的軸套的材質跟相關的硬力所造成那後續我們會透過裝備的保養跟後續 陸續的進屋我們都會去量測 以為這個安全跟權宜但是 這個兩個零件看起來不相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6698.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6727.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
但是兩次的事件裡面發生都在以推進的系統出問題的所以本市想了解當初造艦的時候推進系統有些哪些部分是台船自己負責有些哪個部分是台船委託其他的廠商所以本市在問玉山艦兩次事故進廠緊休除了台船和海軍外有沒有請第三方 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6729.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6751.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
第三方接同檢修跟委員報告因為他有些的料件是屬於是其他的廠來實施那我們也都跟這個相關的原廠有請這個台船來聯繫共同來找出這個發生的一個原因我們這邊建議你剛剛之前有講到第三方的檢修就非常的重要為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6752.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6770.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
因為它可以突破到台船跟海軍的盲點之外有第三方作為真正找出一個問題所在這樣的話你們才可以真正找出一個問題所在所以我想這個就是我們後續間未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6771.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6796.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
都可以再發生這種狀況所以我們今天講一塊我要讓部長知道這種狀況未來我們必須要多注意到這些後續艦包含義商艦包含我們的海昆艦後續的發展如何推進好不好好 請回另外我想請教一下部長我們延宕了F16V |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6802.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6817.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們浪費了到現在我們所有6572億都還在延宕在那個地方我們目前的交件如何的狀況我想部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6819.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6830.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
你自己本身在媒體上都講了這個非常的困難因為什麼 具有挑戰性那你認為這個交界 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6833.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6846.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
是不是可以如期的交建還是有挑戰性部長你回答一下好不好垂詢的是那個海昆建的部分嗎不是 F16BF16B 就是說我們剛已經講了現在在線組裝的有總共有50架同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6853.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6870.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那其中有10架我們預計在今年的年底以前會組裝完成那要進行這個測試飛行所以我們明年應該是可以獲得F-16B的交機但是是不是66架能夠全速交機這個我想具有挑戰性好 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6871.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6898.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這本來就應該要交機的不是說今年底十一月份你們都已經對外說在十一月份應該要交機到明年但是能不能六十六下這個都是一個挑戰性對不對本來這個在用特別預算來做一個經購的時候我們應該在如期的交建這就是對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6899.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6916.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
國人有一個交代但問題是你剛剛講的是不是66架如期到期都一個挑戰性所以這個要講清楚跟國人有所清楚我們經購的66架的16V |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6920.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6946.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
也應該給國人很清楚的因為未來我們的經購還要提高經購還要提高所以這樣的一個沒有如期交件我們又如何的提高我們國防預算那個我請參謀長你回答一下交機的程序跟問題所在你來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6947.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6970.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以跟委員報告交接程序的部分我們現在剛剛誠如部長所報告的我們現在有50架在線10架已經完成組裝那組裝完成之後預計在本來在這兩個月要進行試飛那因為整合上面還有一些問題在解決所以說試飛完成之後它的供進就會進度的會比較快一點因為在整個你所謂的快是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6971.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6992.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
因為像現在其實整個廠的進度是陸陸續續一直在走所以並不是說停在那邊0跟100的這個關係它整個工廠其實一直是有在進度那是非的整合一定要在安全的情況下包含美軍他自己也是這樣的要求我們也是這樣要求在不安全的情況下我們絕對不允許做任何的是非 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6993.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7019.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那在整工程的整合上面在這兩個月還有發生一些整合上的問題所以說這個在這兩個月應該可以解決在美軍最新的報告下個年度開始一定可以做一個試飛跟交機的部分那交機不代表飛到台灣來因為交機之後我們在美國還有做一些接收的檢查還有我們要做人員的訓練所以說在美國我們會先派一批人過去做一個訓練才會把飛機飛返 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7020.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7047.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那明年的交機大概有幾台這個還沒辦法跟委員做報告因為整個工廠的進度跟零附件的供給我們是每個月都有在掌握但是要交機數量的部分還是跟委員抱歉沒有辦法給一個明確的數字但是一定會有飛機飛返交一台也是叫交機嗎不會這麼少我們現在目前看整個供進來講的話應該不會這麼少好 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7051.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7076.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我希望預算的經過是國人最關心的我們不能夠讓美國一直把台灣當作是他的一個提款機那第二個我特別要講的部長我們的軍人的薪資條例國軍的薪資條例有沒有可能在這個會期能夠通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7081.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7100.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
跟委員報告我們在今年的4月7月8月都已經分別有調整相關的一些加級包括志願役加級還有戰鬥部隊加級以及網路戰戰航管等等的這些加級那有關您講的這個軍人待遇條例的部分我想行政院已經說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7101.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7127.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我想大概在行政立法上面還有一些一些我想的分際還有一些待解決的地方那我想國安部的立場我想我們都會持續的來努力的來提升軍人的待遇那至於這個預算的這個部分要接受行政院的指導基於政府一體的原則部長你身為一個國防部長我相信你也體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7129.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7144.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
體系 我們這個軍人他們的辛苦都站在第一線我們用良心的思考看看我們應該要給他們一個保障既然我們軍購提升了 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7145.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7172.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們的特別預算也要提高了為什麼軍人的待遇是沒有提升因為他們站在第一線保護我們國家國人那問題是我們有良心去看本來就應該要加的嘛 對不對那我們已經通過為什麼三七五減株也補了一點這也是要通過所以你應該要跟高層總統來報告這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7176.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7203.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
國軍薪資條例我們要保障他們的薪資因為他們在保護我們的國家他們是站在第一線我們的經購我們的國防預算要提升要提高我們應該要從軍人的薪資條例應該要保障他們這才是真正要照顧他們這樣對我們國家的安全才會更好更好部長你的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7205.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7232.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
國防部都會努力在做一個整體的規劃那我們像剛剛跟您報告4月7月8月分別有三次的一個調整都是基於一個整體的規劃包括我們認為戰鬥部隊的邊線比比較低那我們就提高大幅的提高戰鬥部隊的一個加級等等的那有一些高度專業的這個部分我們為了要留住人才我們也在這部分加級做增加我想我們國防部也會再持續來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7233.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7245.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
基於總體的規劃來持續的來提出這個加急的這個方案這樣子好 我希望你要慎重的要保障軍人的條例好 以上 謝謝謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7267.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7289.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長那麼其他列席的官員如果需要補充的就請自行到台前來部長好我想剛剛其實在前面幾位委員的詢答當中都已經針對報告當中提出來的一些有關於我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7290.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7313.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
整體的軍事採購相關的這樣的一個進度做了一些說明喔那麼在詢答您之前我想在這個6日有一個跟我們國防外交也有關的議題就是外交部長林佳龍被這個CNN報導說這個以不明的消息來源特別提到的就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7314.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7336.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
在川習會當天CNN的這個報導聲稱說台灣的外交部長林佳龍涉嫌美方高層臨時缺席那這個消息來源是不明確的當時就被渲染成說好像我們台灣在外交上面充滿了這個困境跟挫折感不過馬上的外交部就做出了澄清那麼當時大家就講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7336.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7358.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
現在所謂的這個不只是以美論氾濫在外交的部分甚至於是不是包括連國防採購的部分其實也充斥著所謂以美論這個是本席特別找到的我不想多幫這個中國的官媒做宣傳可以看到就是中國的官媒很喜歡針對台灣的戰機或者是軍購來說所謂的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7362.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7389.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
比如島內網友諷我們買這個F16戰機是所謂炸之機操作美國與民進黨聯手炸到台灣身無分文那麼我知道現在國民黨的新任黨主席在接受外國媒體的訪問的時候這個鄭麗文也特別提到了針對賴清德總統提到要把我們的國防預算拉升到GDP的3%他基本上認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7391.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7407.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這樣子太多了或者是說他比較精準的講法是認為不需要這麼多即使外國的媒體直接跟他說那麼中國的軍備也在增加當中但是他還是認為這個數字太高了所以其實我還滿感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7408.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7430.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
召委今天特別安排這個部分讓國防部有機會把話說清楚但是我想講的就是如果當中國不斷的透過他們的官媒在釋放著就是台灣不需要這麼多的軍購或者是台灣的軍購都是當美國的冤大頭包括美國當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7432.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7458.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他們也做了很多的報告但這些報告現在也不只是美國包括歐盟包括其他的國家都在講那就是以美論現在已經成為中國操作的一個方向那麼好現在問題就來了部長面對這樣的以美論的所謂認知作戰從外交到國防在這個部分我們是不是有適時的做一些澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7459.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7485.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我為什麼說今天召委安排這樣的一個專報非常的好是因為至少讓國防部有機會可以把話講清楚就像剛剛也特別提到的該交件的交件了沒有交件的部分有它存在的原因但是這種所謂搭配的組合權其實確實會讓國人對於我們提升國防自主又或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7487.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7511.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
讓中國針對台灣國防的部分來下所謂的以美論這樣的毒藥其實還是會影響到的部長有沒有什麼回應首先第一點就是說像美國軍購的這些相關的武器包括剛剛提到TOS-2B標槍海馬4 M1A2 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7516.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7532.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
甚至還有這個Artist 600等等這些供給無人機事實上都是如期的在交貨或者是有一些已經交運完畢那確實是有這個少數的包括我們剛剛講的那三個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7532.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7550.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那當然大家最關切的是F-16V的這個部分那我們也一再說明說這個是已經有50架在線組裝所以我們認為明年也一定會有這個飛機來進行交運那這些這樣子的一個延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7551.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7572.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
不代表美國他不重視跟我們的一個軍購案而反過來講是我們可以看得到美方對於加速來進行然後來讓這些軍購案的延宕能夠盡速的改善這樣一個努力那對於我們來講的話我們光部當然就是說還是要針對這樣的一個認知作戰我們應該是要秉於這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7580.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7593.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個即時收報之後然後來這個立即澄清這樣的一個原則來主動掌握這個訊息的這個聲量然後來適時的處置這個是我們國防部應該要努力來做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7594.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7619.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那面對現在最大的在野黨黨主席也就是鄭麗文他特別在接受國際媒體專訪的時候特別提到了就是賴清德總統要把我們的國防預算拉伸到到達GDP的3%那麼他認為這樣子是過多了但是其實過去朱立倫也曾經表示他是支持國防預算比重超過3%那麼但只是他反對就是台灣跟美國購買 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7621.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7630.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個所謂的戰爭用的武器武器的設備那麼面對這樣子的整體的反應國防部怎麼樣來對外做應對或是你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7633.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7653.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
總統也一再的宣示要以實力來取得和平國防部的立場我是認為我們跟美國的立場在這方面都是一致就是說整個亞太區域的和平穩定跟繁榮是美國的也是全球所關切的一個核心的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7654.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7678.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我們為了要達成一個嚇阻我們一定要強化我們的國防的實力因為我們是站在一個對抗的最前緣如果我們自己不先強化我們自我防衛的能力跟決心的話我想就不足以產生嚇阻那麼如果不足以產生嚇阻的話那中國冒進的這個就可能增加所以冒進的這個可能性就可能增加所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7680.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7697.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
國人一定要同意就是說要用實力然後依照我們的防衛作戰的需求依照我們的敵情威脅依照我們的建軍整備的這個情況來建構我們必要的這個籌購我們必要的這個武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7697.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7717.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那也不可諱言的就是說現在願意公開按照這個台灣關係法跟六項保證願意提供我們相關的防衛性的武器我們如果要採軍購案除了我們商購跟委制的部分以外最大的軍售國的來源當然就是美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7718.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7732.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那所以我們跟美國購買我們認為防衛作戰人力所必要的這個武器然後合乎我們的這個現金準備的一個要求我想這個都是必要的也希望國人能夠一體來加以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7733.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7757.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我是蠻認同部長所言其實在這幾年因為台灣受到國際間的重視尤其是除了美國之外其他歐盟或者是其他的國家對於台灣站在這個重要的戰略位置上面的重視因此我們在購買武器上面要對比過去要來的至少有進展這是肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7757.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7774.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那麼只是說我們如何讓民眾認為在自己增強防衛自主上面有其必要性而且能夠展現到我們國防防衛對全民來講是重要的我想這個部分國防部恐怕還是要再多一點更多的說明喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7774.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7792.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那麼另外其實我要講的就是在這個川習會之前喔這個川普特別在外交上面對外說了Taiwan is Taiwan但是在同一個時間點上面他又在他的這個social media上面講了在軍事上面他要施壓所以宣布要重啟 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7793.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7809.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
和試驗那麼現在外交圈或者是整個國際政治上面會認為說這會不會是一個川普的所謂的組合圈一方面宣示台灣在台海上面的安全的一個重要性的這個戰略地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7810.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7819.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但是另外一方面他也認為要延伸嚇阻對於中國上面所必要的一些防衛的動作當然我不認為這個所謂宣佈重啟核試驗是一個對的方向因為畢竟其實這個一旦這個造成這個所謂的核爆對全球來講都是一個非常嚴重的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7831.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7845.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
部長怎麼來看呢川普在這一陣子不論是在外交的宣示又或者在軍事上面的動作對於台灣的影響性上對台灣的安全上面那麼美國的延伸式的嚇阻模式對台灣有什麼樣的影響我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7848.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7865.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
美國還是將印太作為它一個戰略核心所以就這個核子的武器美國也看到中國也不斷地在增強它的核子武器的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7867.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7895.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以我想這個也是強化對中的一個嚇阻力道那當然其次就是如果我們看到這個中美現在也進行這個防漲的一個會議那如果你仔細看這個Hexes他事實上提到的第一點還是以實力實力來維持這個區域和平的穩定那當然我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7897.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7920.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
有期待看到當然美中的這個溝通機制是有要有利於區域的和平跟穩定來降低這個他在衝突跟誤判的風險但是我想剛我提到的就是美國的戰爭部長他很明白的強調還是要以實力來維護區域的和平穩定那所以我們當然這邊也要呼籲中國作為一個負責任的大國的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7923.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7947.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
也應該要在行動上面放棄對周邊國家的揮袋遣召跟這個停止各種的軍事威脅對啦 我覺得這就像是我們健身的人其實是希望自己身體變強壯但是不是身體變強壯之後去霸凌人家我想這個應該就是台灣目前在國防戰力上面必須要擁有一定的實力最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7948.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7966.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那麼另外當然就是本席在有關於針對這一年的總預算的時候特別的關注有關於九曲塘營區啦關田營區跟長峰營區的這個所謂工程延宕的部分我也看到了今天我們在報告當中有特別提到了就是這個有關於軍事的建設的部分喔那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7968.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7985.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
其實我知道部長也非常重視就是有關PCM就是專管公司管理不當導致這個履約爭議而整體來說也造成了就是我們在營區的建制上面有延誤喔其實我只想問那麼在部長重視以及我們包括我們陸軍參謀也非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7987.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7990.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
參謀長非常重視的情況底下個案解決了但是未來精進的部分呢在有關於怎麼樣就責或是怎麼樣建立這個賞罰制度上面喔那麼是不是針對這個部分有更進一步的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8003.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8027.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
邦委員陸軍參謀長向您做簡要的報告在委員的指導和部長召集研討相關會議之後第一個我們事權統一過去在專管跟統包它是分別由司令部和使用單位也就是軍團來訂定那導致在軍團對於專管公司沒有相關的督導的約束力 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8029.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8046.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那在這一段我們已經把它修正全部事權統一由軍團來訂定但是司令部責無旁貸他仍然是每個月或是是這個軍團反應的問題來做一個定期的一個會議的檢討那第二個也就是建立一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8048.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8073.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們不偏袒專管以及統包都會建立一個法則的機制然後這些也都納入到相關的工訓中心的這些營工的班隊裡面列入教材 以上報告好 那麼我也希望對於這種有問題的不論是專管公司或是包商還是要有所謂的黑名單制度這個部分就希望能夠加強因為畢竟只要是工程延宕最後受損的都是要使用的國軍地修好 謝謝謝謝 謝偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8079.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8083.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
謝謝接下來請王帝宇委員上台質詢不好意思也在這裡順便宣告一下待會兒王帝宇委員質詢完畢以後我們休息5分鐘抱歉休息50分鐘都可以好麻煩請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8109.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8137.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
部長早其實台灣軍購或者投資國防為什麼我們需要加大投資以及為什麼我們會有滿滿的困難我想長期在關心這個領域我們很多人在討論這個議題都忘記了前提是什麼我們沒事喜歡花一億兩億一千億去投資國防嗎是因為什麼我們面對威脅嘛那威脅我們的是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8138.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8166.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
中國 全世界就一個國家宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家全世界就他而中國的軍備增加的狀況部長有沒有掌握我想他都會陸續以兩倍的這個軍備增長的速度來增加表面的數據他還有黑數我光用他表面數據至少過去連續四年每年已超過7%的幅度成長今年達到史上最高8兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8169.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8192.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
應該我講的是過去10年對 那我現在只算他的帳面上的我還沒有把他的武警 準軍事化還有黑數我沒有算進去我光從中國公布的數據到2025年8兆習近平剛接任的時候2013年他們的帳面上的軍費支出是6300億人民幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8195.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8224.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
到現在已經是一兆多所以中國是倍增的方式然後我們是要威脅的重中之重所以有人說台灣的國防預算太多了你怎麼不去跟老共講啊拿起棍棒打我們的是中國耶我們只不過想架起一個盾牌門上上個鎖家裡裝個保全讓自己的家人可以安心一點嫌我們做太多叫我們放下武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8225.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8252.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
侵略者放下武器才有和平守衛者放下武器就滅國了那我在請教部長我們為什麼不到處比價來來來 法國來跟我比一下價英國來跟我比一下價美國來比一下價我們買到便宜的 交貨快的我們為什麼沒辦法這樣子像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便人家韓國為什麼可以買這一家的引擎要川普可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8252.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8277.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
供應它核子燃料做潛艇我們為什麼不能你有答案啦這個答案是常識嘛我想應該委員大家都很清楚就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛原因也是因為中國嘛有人講台灣買舊東西貴東西當然那個時代已經過去了我們現在買幾乎都現衣裝備但我們軍事採購會這麼困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8279.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8303.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我們不是買方市場我們是賣方市場因為我們可以取得的現代化最新型的軍事裝備來源受限而受限的原因是任何國家跟台灣打交道中國就要制裁這個制裁那個這是原因啊你不把這兩個特殊的原因我們面對極大的威脅我們也面對極大的封鎖單純用好像在買賣一樣看我們面對軍購的困難對國軍不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8308.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8335.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
對我們負責採購的降臨也不公平我這樣講應該算持平吧所以我要接下來問的是幾個簡單的問題然後後來我們討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法即時履約第一個問題是大家一直在講的我們台灣到底有沒有丟六千億放在美國那邊然後什麼都沒有拿到我們目前對美軍購已經付錢但是沒有拿到貨的到底是有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8336.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8361.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
就錢已經給了但是我沒有拿到貨的抱歉 站位司司長在這邊跟你簡要說明一下我們目前所有的案項裡面從96年開始的I3新購跟I2C能提升到最後一個案子TPS拐拐拐巴總共加起來是300餘億美元這是我們軍購的總母數那歷年來我們總共結匯了188億餘美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8366.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8369.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
結會的意思就是付出去的結會應該是匯到美國匯到美國是放在我國帳戶還是放在美方帳戶有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8379.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8405.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
方委員這個部分會先進到他的FRB帳戶然後美方再依照他的產制期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面但是我剛剛提的188億餘美元裡面有很多都已經執行完畢了包括1700多億你說這樣講這些數據會產生一個誤解就我看到你們的報告我理解的就是按照合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8406.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8415.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
他拿錢沒有給我們的其實是沒有因為我們台灣沒有當運大頭啊我不會提早把錢放在那邊等你交貨嘛所以按照合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8417.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8440.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們已經付錢但是他沒有一約交貨的目前其實是沒有但是有沒有延宕 有慢的有慢的部分就是說我按照合約你這個時候應該要做到哪裡了但是你還沒有達到所以我錢也不能讓你扣走嘛所以付錢不交貨 沒有但是時間到了該付錢你要交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8441.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8470.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他沒有到我們沒有付錢但有延宕我這樣理解對不對好那我就要問第二個目前按照期程的節點應該要達到這個目的但是他沒有達標所以我不付錢我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目結匯48億嘛美金嘛就這三個嘛所以我再把剛才整理一下讓國人釐清納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備大概是300億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8471.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8493.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
但是300億美金不是我先付給他放在那裡等他交貨 沒有所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢但是沒拿到東西的是沒有這個情形但有沒有按照進度他該交東西了但是還沒有交所以我錢暫時hold住不付這個有 這個有多少呢有三大項目大概佔48億美金所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭說錢讓人家當ATM領錢了不付 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8501.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8522.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這個不交貨嘛回到我們面對重大的威脅回到我們在軍事採購上的困境動輒把全世界提供先進武器最重要的盟友去製造彼此的不信任去醜化他對我們台灣到底有沒有幫助我覺得國人要去思考所以回到這48億商業項目我請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8524.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8548.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我剛才把這個思路整理清楚300億的美元的軍購案錢我們沒有 沒拿到或付錢 零而該一約給我們東西還沒給有延宕的有三樣48億美金但我錢不會付給他所以台灣並沒有當冤大頭不會有付錢在那邊等東西沒有這情形但現在有三個延宕我們擔心影響戰力第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8550.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8568.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
第一個就是AGM-154CAGM-154C原來美方其實長期我們軍方講要買這個其實相當時間了我還印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊那天聽到我還聽到一個飛官說這個終於賣了這一個現在原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8577.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8605.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那你們現在寫了一些理由啦最新構型我們跟美軍是同型的嘛最新型的沒有買舊的買中古的吧包圍我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代我們是block 3所以我們拿的是美軍現役的是block 2我們現在買到的是最新型的block 3所以要重新產線啊備料啊等等所以呢慢了我第一個問題是現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8606.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8623.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
包委員 剛剛您提到的106年同意公售之後其實我們一直還沒有完成預約因為我們的構型還有我們的F16V所以2017年那一次大概就是同意而已但還沒有雙方簽約就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8624.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8653.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們跟美軍他們有報價但是美軍他跟次合約商就是他的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成一約因為這個你們都有報告我們現在跑快一點這一個案子什麼時候美方的回覆什麼時候可以交往我們在這個月的記管會他們提到應該在這兩年就是在116年到117可以全數的交完所以等於是往後延了兩年到2028年是 我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116到117會全部交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8654.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8677.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
2028年可以完全交運他有一個前提你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常所以說美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116到117因為你寫要重啟產線什麼當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆還有俄烏戰爭排序優先數據改變這些因素都解決了沒如果他沒有解決你怎麼能確認20182028可以交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8680.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8700.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
是 這些都是美軍他跟四合約商評估完目前我們準備要跟他完成議約那廠商提供的這個時程表好 我們下一個項目F16V大家最關注的當時是用了特別預算來採購那原定的時程是2023年開始交第一架機 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8701.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8719.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
然後到2026年全部要交到我們台灣那目前延盪我知道這是F16VK說等於是一個全新的機種了因為全新的機種它很多次系統要整合要測試所以當然會有一些困難就像一個全新的一個飛機一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8721.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8739.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
第一個問題一樣目前你們預計今年會不會交機數量我先不問今年來不及交機今年沒辦法來不及交機那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷這些原因這些因素到底是否已經排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8740.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8760.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
目前都已經逐漸在排除當中最主要的原因現在是在工程整合上面的問題像缺工缺料的部分這個我們一再跟美軍做一個我簡單分享我們在生產管理上第一塊叫做技術問題嘛技術問題已經處理好了那第二個就是生產的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8761.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8785.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
排程啊 作業流程啊現在是這一塊要把它更有效率嘛是 排程的這個部分已經在已經都回到原來的這個趕工的那個所以我們可不可以講F16V原來遇到延宕的因素已經解決因為你用逐漸解決我都不曉得是在解決跟還沒解決之間在遊蕩嗎就我了解應該是在最後的這個測試飛行的這個部分要能夠順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8787.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8806.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以它現在整合裝好之後要上去做測評嘛測試飛行完成生產線就開始生產生產線也同時在生產當中它要跟上來 但第一架的原型要組裝我們剛剛講了年底前應該可以組裝十架完成那現在就是再進一步再做一個測試飛行年底組裝完成未必來得及交機 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8807.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8826.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
因為還要做一個測試所以我剛才聽你們講是今年的交機可能不樂觀那你們預劃最後完整交機的時間是什麼時候我們現在沒有辦法畫出一個明確的時間點但是我們能夠講的就是說整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8829.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8855.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我看你們報告20小時加班同時50下組裝嘛所以它很有可能一個結果就是以前我們是3架5架慢慢交它可能會一次交一大批嘛如果測試順利的話我想就會有一個比較大的數量那它這樣子的期程會影響到我們一件事情我們通常我們人員的編裝培育會跟著交機期程這樣順順的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8856.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8866.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他現在慢了 突然間給你一堆我們的飛行員跟後勤 整個人的部分會不會有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8868.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8893.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
老師各位報告這個部分我們在早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃所以說人的補充的部分還有調配的部分因為我們希望能夠盡快形成戰力您剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F16 block兩棟的飛行員已經也提升到16V所以說這個人員的調配我們讓盡快能夠讓他一次能夠到位我剛講的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8894.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8910.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
原來我們規劃是你逐漸交機我們的人逐漸跟上嘛這樣訓練的時程量能才會夠可是如果交機慢團隊大量給你那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊那這一個部分的調配你們怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8912.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8935.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
它即使是大量也不會說大量到我們沒辦法去負荷因為我們的人在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編程對 有關這個人員的部分我順帶給部長提醒一下我們陸軍的A機 AH-1 OH-58你也知道很多因為那個飛機要慢慢陸續要淘汰了OH-58D要淘汰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8936.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8964.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
A機你們就延後啦我只是提醒飛行員的訓練不容易是國家重要資產那如果輕易的因為裝備沒有跟上就讓飛行員離開現場這個對將來如果有新的飛機的話我們在籌貨人的話其實會我覺得會有點可惜這些都是國家優秀的資產人跟裝備我認為人還更重要所以這些飛行官不要動輒就是大量的讓他移走或者移去飛無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8966.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8979.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
飛官飛官去飛無人機在尊嚴上跟待遇上他們不會接受的我最後請教我最後一分鐘請教第三個項目延宕的是這個Mk48我們Mk48這一個我們買到是 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8985.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9002.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那個Mod 6還是Mod 7應該是Mod 6的嘛第六型的嘛因為第七型是美軍最新的我們是用現役的那本來是26年也就明年要完成交運那現在呢延後到什麼時候可以交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9004.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9032.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
跟委員報告那因為美國要能夠強化這個產線跟供應他已經重新的產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去那預計是在會在這個115年他會開始有陸續來做一個也就明年開始會陸續交貨那因為原來是2023到2026嘛那如果明年才陸續交貨我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延所以最後的節點時間會什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9033.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9060.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
最後面的節點時間應該會在這個117年到118年做最後結案美方有沒有什麼替代方案他先把現役的先借我們用因為有潛艦沒有重型魚雷這個是開玩笑啊這個也列入他們一個替代方案讓我們的戰力先補時嘛那將來交貨的時候再還給他因為是他慢的不是我們慢的因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題還不見得是外面承包商 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9061.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9077.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
都有 但是主要是因為承包商的供應當初的那個量沒有需求量沒有辦法預估到好 這個時間關鍵我是建議國防部有關這個因為納稅人的錢我們對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付但是那個所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9078.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9092.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
有一些在惡意的公結有的是好像顯龍國防部都沒有在管錢或者讓台美之間的信任產生裂痕這個沒有必要講對了我們改正講錯了要提出來我們根本沒有付錢放在那邊等貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9093.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9110.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們是按照節點付錢你慢我們錢就不給你台灣不肯當冤大頭而台灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖我們的採購真的有它的困難在這困難下如果輕率的去說出國防預算太多不需要國防預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9112.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9124.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
除了對不起國軍長期的努力以外是把2300萬人的安全放在什麼地方我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲我們的安全要靠自己的努力還有國際的氛圍好 謝謝部長好 謝謝好 我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9500.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9504.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們現在繼續開會接下來請陳冠廷委員上台資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9522.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9539.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
你好 我們請部長跟相關的官員如果覺得問題有跟業務相關都可以直接進去是 陳委員好部長早那剛才王定宇委員有提到這個關於F16V戰機的這個交付的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9540.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9564.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那其實這些交付的部分前幾位委員我們都已經有相關質詢過那我想請教的就是在尚未交付的狀況之下那我們要如何去彌補現在的戰力的缺口還是現在其實戰力沒有缺口那預計未來要部署東部的第七聯隊先前說已經有調派8架現有的F16V的戰機進駐那這樣的調整會不會影響其他聯隊的戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9570.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9585.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
空間說明包委員 針對這個問題我就四個面向跟您做一個報告第一個面向就是您剛提的戰力的部分以往我們的在台東因為中共的威脅是全面性的所以說以往我們要補足台東這個區塊的戰力空隙我們是調派 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9589.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9609.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
三個主力戰機的部隊輪流進駐那現在因為因應他的這個換裝所以我們現在是專責剛您提到了我們才專責F16在這邊進駐那有兩個原因一個是可以增加彌補這邊的戰力空隙另外一個就是讓接裝的飛行員 地勤人員能夠同步的進行他們這樣的一個訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9610.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9630.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那未來只要飛機一回來它的差異性畢竟有限而且我們的地勤人員現在台東的地勤人員已經都到美國換裝完畢了地勤人員完畢了那空勤的因為飛機還沒出來只要飛機出來他們做一個差異訓練很快就可以彌補這樣的一個戰力那在後勤的部分也跟您做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9631.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9659.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那我們為了增加因為現在要彌補這個戰機的空隙所以說我們在112年開始也逐漸的投入我們所有的這個備份件讓我們所有可用的飛機能夠增加所以說在112年到現在為止我們已經逐漸投入各型機的零附件的採購讓我們現在可以用的機數增加的情況下已經投入至少175億以上那第三個就是人員訓練的部分那我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9659.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9666.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
在這個人員訓練我們也是利用各種的訓練時機將我們F16的訓練強度逐漸地做一個調整也讓現在正要換裝未來要接裝的這些飛行員能夠在F16的訓練上能夠更熟悉最後一個就是飛行員的補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9676.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9692.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那飛行員的補充因為我們增加了66架戰機人員當座艙比會增加所以說我們也是在112年之前每一年招訓的人跟這個飛行員的邊線比都達到我們的戰力需求那以上做這四點的補充非常感謝非常詳盡的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9694.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9716.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那有些是操之於人有些是操之在己那我可以看到從四個面向回應的話操之在己的部分我們是有做很好的因應那特別是同步訓練比如說時間都沒有縮短包含後勤訓練人員接種人員我想在這一個空檔的時間點讓我們有精進的作為我覺得是很好的那也因此我特別要提到就是對美相關的採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9717.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9743.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那如果有相關的延宕的案件那可以跟空軍一樣就是在這一個空白的時間裡面我們不會讓他空白我們是有訓練的後勤也好還是您剛剛提到的每件事情都是有在做的那操之於人的地方我們講完了那我們操之於己的部分就是說報告報告裡面都有提到提到說這個計劃預算不符合市場行情那 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9744.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9773.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我想請教一下現行的可行性的評估報告或者是說這些營建物價指數的更新頻率不知道部長是有沒有什麼相關的有最新的狀況可以跟我們分享一下委員所問的我們在那個報告裡面我們在3月因為我來了以後有一直在反映這個他在預算在做計畫編列的時候跟那個實際執行的那個部分沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9774.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9802.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以我們現在在軍事工程設計作為跟作業指引有一個側班所以要執行的前一年度要在前一個年度要做一個可行性的評估報告的一個審查那一個時候就要按照最新的營建物價指數跟市場行情來調修這個合理的經費編列我是因為我去年來了以後發現很多就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9803.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9819.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
因為這個一是發不下去或發了下去以後還要減相減量然後還要再追加等等所以我們確實要務實的檢討然後利用這一個指引的側班然後把這個問題一定要把它改善這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9820.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9833.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
謝謝因為其實這一切都跟經濟金融都還是有關聯那這個剛好也可以運用這個部長之前的這些長才來去看看怎麼樣因為這個是操之在我們自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9833.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9859.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
因為我其實我一直在看說我們針對一些交機的延宕或者是對媒採購那有些時候就算我們持續的去督促但是就是供應鏈的問題就是供應鏈的問題那真的不見得是我們有辦法去快速去解決的那但是能夠操之在己的部分我覺得那個指引是正確的那以後我們還是要長時間去檢討那去做滾動式的調整那第二件事情就是廠商的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9860.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9875.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那我们之前有提到说这个背景审核其实背景审核里面我们为什么除了安全的顾虑之外那财务上面它有没有很稳健的这个状况我想未来也都可以更完整的来去评估 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9876.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9892.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那部長再請教一個問題這個是跟戰略比較相關的因為最近川普總統在接受這個哥倫比亞廣播公司的節目專訪的時候他再度就這個台灣議題他有發表相關的言論他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9894.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9915.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
他公開就是說在那個訪談裡面川普說習近平公開說過他的人馬也在會議上公開說過在川普總統任內他們絕對不會採取任何行動不知道布部長有沒有掌握過相關的這樣子的訪談那你怎麼看我們當然有注意到川普總統的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9918.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9942.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
陸續來相關的這個講話不過我想國安部的立場還是要針對的是我們所有的這些徵喉早期的徵喉 預警的徵喉以及現在即時的這些相關的這個徵喉我們運用我們所有聯合勤政手段跟我們有盟國家來進行勤政交換等等我們來掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9942.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9969.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
整個台海的周邊情勢的一個變化我們看到 我們應該看的是相關的徵口然後根據徵口來做一個完整的判斷我想國防部還是會採取這樣的一個立場那這個當然也包括軍事層面跟非軍事層面相關所有的中共的動態好 謝謝部長那在關於左營軍港的擴建跟這個潛艦上面的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9971.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9984.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那原本這個軍港的這個擴建它的威海計畫是最早是規劃是2019年完工那現在是延宕到2032年那預算說已經第三度擴編到590億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9987.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10007.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那我想請教一下這個考量當然是我們重要的軍港那也是受於這個港區的規模我們是擔心說艦艇或者甚至是潛艦這樣子的靠譜會不會遭敵鎖定所以從這個很短的時間要出港作戰的諸多需求從2006年就開始有在編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10008.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10029.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那我想請教一下現在潛艦所屬的戰隊基地就是左營軍港那擴建的工程會不會影響到這個潛艦的部署委員好現在韓軍資金那個參謀長報告就是我們現在潛艦的主要基地在左營 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10030.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10054.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那未來我們整個的潛艦未來的這個後續成軍之後我們會打算要放在兩個地方因為地點的部分我們也不會在因為這個涉及到相關的部分我們不方便在那邊表但是我們在後續的這個規劃上都有這個做了一個規劃跟意義那在做第一部分在左營港的時候是不會影響到現在擴建不會影響到我們第一階段那個左營港的潛艦的一個基地的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10054.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10079.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以我們的潛艦是在沒有擴建的前提下也能部署的狀況之下去設計它也會在同樣會做一個擴建但它地點不會有影響到它的工程那規劃第二基地的話想請教一下這個時程上面的話是要怎麼樣去哪一個節點就是說對我們來講說我們希望是在什麼時間點規劃完成或者是來把它執行完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10081.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10100.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
跟委員報告那我目前會先以左營的地方來做擴建為主那國營擴建完之後我們第二階段才會到第二個地點再去做一些整建跟一個設計規劃跟興建好 謝謝部長最後是針對這一個之前的一個151新兵的涉及意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10101.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10112.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
他是來自我們嘉義那中不鄉那我有特別之前有跟找一個時間來去慰問那我們當然對這件事情是非常的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10113.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10136.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那目前這個受傷的新兵我們是希望國防部一定要提供最大的協助那除了這個家屬非常擔憂的就是真相的部分之外那醫療上面的協助跟全力讓受傷的同仁能夠恢復到正常的生活因為我看現在還是在加護病房治療嘛那所以還是在昏迷那雖然說昏迷指數有 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10138.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10162.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
比較好但還是中度昏迷所以這個部分這個意外目前最新的調查結果是怎麼樣我想第一個我們一定會對他做最大的醫療的照顧那第二個就是有關這些調查的工作現在已經交給檢調所以我想在偵查中的話我們可能不適宜來公開表示一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10164.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10186.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
但是接下來的慰問補助這些因為我們看過他們家庭我們還是希望說國防部就是定時定期的還是要派員去訪視最近有去訪視嗎都有持續的掌握這位弟兄的病情然後也都跟家屬都有保持聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10187.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10216.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那一样我们也是任何的这种训练把掌的安全我们都是很重视的但是也是希望说不要因为这件事情让就因噎废食那不训练也不对但是对于我们受伤的这些伤员那必须要提供给最好的这个协助那特别是他的枪伤的面积是很大的我们先初步了解是还有后面的这一个你说重建也好那还有这一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10217.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10238.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
相關的整治整形的醫療那我們都希望說能夠全力來去協助這我相信在未來只要有訓練就有可能會發生意外意外是不可能不可能不發生那所以我希望藉由這一次的話包含後續的醫療的這樣子的做法那可以更加的完整就是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10239.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10260.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
特別是針對這一些他的至親他的這些親人的這心靈上面的輔導我想都很重要因為對他們來講這個年輕人是他們重要的支柱好不好來全力協助是我們一定會做好跟家屬的這方面的一個輔導我們中埔的鄉親所以還是再次希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10262.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10275.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
定期的去協助特別是心理上的輔導跟醫療上面的支持因為我們知道國軍很多醫院他的特別是在重大的這種創傷的協助會 是 當然好不好 我們幫他找最好的醫生是 當然好 謝謝接下來請徐巧欽委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10296.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10300.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
謝謝主席那我們是不是可以請這個國防部顧部長請顧部長是徐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10308.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10333.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
部長好 現在大家都很關心這個F16V的延宕的問題喔那主要在上個禮拜的時候 我有詢問這個主任長相關的這個議題那結果他第一時間呢 他主動回覆說要向這個他沒有說是向哪一方啦 但是因為這是一個軍購案嘛所以他當時講說 他要提出法律的訴訟要求賠償 並且要求返還不當得利 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10333.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10344.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那因為它是一個軍購案如果真的這麼做的話那就是政府對政府是否我們在卓院長的這個說明之下是要向美國政府來提告或者是說他搞錯啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10345.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10366.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
跟委員報告我想相關軍購的案子是這個國家對國家政府對政府的所以我知道啊在發價書裡面就規定就是說爭議的話要按協商解決協商嘛那提告的部分因為院長他說要提告他說要反環不當要求反環不當得獵 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10368.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10384.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這個如果是關於有不當得利的狀況的話譬如說像去年這個雷神公司它有涉及到詐欺的話那美國政府呢我問的是嚴當嘛那時候我沒有跟他講到就是說詐欺現在突然講到說詐欺我很緊張耶你這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10385.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10412.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
因為院長可能他講的這個情況是在講說有不當得利那不當得利的話你要回到我們的這個詢答的過程當中我在詢問的問題是F16V的延宕的問題那他就主動講說他要提出法律的訴訟那包含提告包含要求賠償包含不當得利的返還那以現在這個F16V的狀況有需要做到這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10413.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10424.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我個人覺得沒有你覺得有嗎F16V當然到現在為止並沒有發生像雷神公司的那一個違法的不當得利的狀況是那有要提出訴訟嗎這沒有辦法提出訴訟的吧對吧F16V這個案子F16V的這個案子目前是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10431.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10457.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
因為我覺得要說清楚畢竟他就是我們的行政院長公然的說要這個等於是對美國提告這也引起大家不曉得風波所以先感謝我們院這個部長把這個事情講清楚不要再用這種方式然後讓其他我們這個跟我們互動的國家嚇一跳想說我美國要被台灣告了嗎這沒有這件事情再來院長後來就在最近的質詢裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10459.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10482.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
他突然講說戰機的數量是不能公開的這是錯誤的訊息吧我想院長的意思當時講的意思我在旁邊聽的意思他大概意思就是說實際的這些交互的一些狀況還是有保留的一個空間所以我想就這個需要這樣保留這個空間嗎因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10483.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10510.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
各國到底有多少的戰鬥機的這個數量都是公開的資料啊那我們當時在簽訂這個新式戰機特別預算的時候的金額那大家也都有規劃在立法院裡面也都有討論那每一年大概本來我們的這個預計要交機多少那這也都是不是機密的資料那為什麼在大院備詢的時候會突然變成是不能公開討論的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10511.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10528.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
你觉得能够公开讨论吗我想国防部这边能够跟委员报告的我们就尽量会跟委员报告那如果没有办法跟委员报告还是要请委员能够体谅这当然我们都会体谅但是我必须要再一次强调我相信部长你也知道每一个国家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10530.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10546.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
戰鬥機是幾架這是屬於公開資訊你網路上就查得到了我們行政院長竟然說不能公開討論這個我是匪夷所思喔那進到今天的正題喔因為前面我只是把最近的這個幾個大院的質詢喔捋清楚不要讓大家再有誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10547.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10568.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那我們現在要講2400多億的這個新式戰機的特別預算裡面我想問一下頭期款我們現在付出去多少錢就說到這個美國聯邦儲備銀行因為我們是一起一起這樣子去付款嘛那我們現在目前付出的是多少金額啊來 可以幫忙部長補充細節的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10569.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10588.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
包委員我們目前就16E Block 擺動這個案子目前已經結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我們在去年第一季的時候也就是113年第一季的時候我們已經跟美方協調在它進入趕上之前我們暫緩付款所以目前付的就是這麼多錢所以總額是 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10591.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10609.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
總額是目前我們結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我問一下47億那為什麼有一次在這個賴世保委員質詢的時候我有看到先前你們的這個也有出一個新聞那你們講說是六成左右這個六成的數字可不可以幫我們說明一下這六成是哪六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10610.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10634.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你去查新聞都有那個47億2500餘萬除以80是差不多六成所以是六成嘛因為你講這個錢因為我是這樣想你把48億這個東西你去跟這個所謂的2400多億這個你去比好像數字很小但其實實際上面交付的我們用比例來算的話坦白說它就是一個六成的數字我這樣講有錯嗎來可不可以幫我確認一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10638.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10665.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這個是我們目前結會的結會的額度你再把整個過程再講清楚一次好不好給你一個就是不然我怕大家聽不太清楚你把它整個就是六成然後你剛剛講四十八億然後還有這個兩千四百多億好不好因為是美金嘛對不對對四十八億美金是多少台幣啊包園我們算一下算一下任何一個輕式武器裝備的公安我知道啦我沒有在講什麼我是說我們把這個事情說清楚嘛來 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10667.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10682.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
48億美金多少台幣因為我現在都跟你講台幣的我們這樣子媒體要報導好了然後大家要了解好了比較清楚48億講了老半天人家以為台幣那很少啊48億美金那不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10683.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10688.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那1400多億左右好 1400多億所以六成嘛我們就講2400多億的這個F16V的經費這個預算然後我們把它放到美國聯邦儲備銀行裡面是1440億左右的台幣 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10705.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10733.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
六成現在不是全部都在美國聯邦儲備銀行那其實放到哪去了因為一開始的時候你交付交付的交付的點一開始我們在在簽約的時候百分之十五的簽約款當他成立了專案辦公室產線備料之後他就會進到信託賬戶OK那後續現在進產線已經有五十架的飛機我們也必須依照這五十架的產制進程先支付他的產制費用所以頭期款是百分之十五 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10735.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10751.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
對15%是多少來金額提供一下我要都要講台幣喔不要再給我美金了台幣對台幣15%一開始的時候包圓我們一開始的時候我們第一年編列的預算是450億左右那後面還是依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10752.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10760.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
這個基本的款項因為我們已經編列了跟美方簽約那後續的部分就是依照美方他們的發價書的期程跟記帳單去支付所以我們現在就是整體來說呢就是提出去的錢是1440億月末是60%左右我再跟您確認一次大概是這個數字好的那這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10774.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10785.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那以這樣子講1441台幣那這樣的話比如說我們剛剛講放到帳戶裡面那我可以拿出來嗎如果人家給我延宕交機的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10787.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10811.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
包委員他如果還沒有進到那個進度他就會放在聯邦儲備銀行對啊他放很久啊那一直放在那裡那等一下我問他放在那裡他給你利息嗎給你利息嘛對不對聯邦儲備銀行裡面是有按照美國的利率計算的利息他給你計算那請問一下那我們在目前來講的話我們以目前的利息來說那我們有額外的取得多少的利息說明一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10816.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10833.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
包委員我是主席局長按照目前的美國的會議大概4%到4.25%之間這個利率就是4%到4.25%之間所以相關的利息要在因為每一次結會的額度他所產生的利息不一定我們要強行去核算 是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10833.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10852.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
如果今天你放在那裡然後沒有用到然後他有利息那利息是多少你要告訴我們這對解釋這件事情清楚對你們是有幫助的好不好那但是呢這個1440億的台幣放在這個地方但我們目前交基是都沒有那我特別要講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10853.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10869.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我想要問一下這個部長就您所知道的除了我國之外還有哪一些國家比我們還要早簽約然後呢也是在採購這個F16系列F16V之外之類的有多少國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10871.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10896.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
目前我們在之前跟我們同一個前後簽約的國家包括斯洛伐克、巴林跟希臘的升級案以及後面結構的新個案其實有四個國家巴林、斯洛伐克、保加利亞跟摩洛克那總共有因為他們比我們早簽約嘛對不對這都是我講的都是比我們早簽約的部分有幾家有幾家他們是也還沒有交付的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10897.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10918.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
包含這個數字我們後續再找一家提供我跟您說我們放投影片給你看現在這個問題是這樣子的就是我們在2023年的時候是合約的簽署日然後66家對不對可是其實在比我們還要早簽約然後也還沒有交付的總共你可以看到還有62家 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10920.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10929.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
所以總共落馬這邊積欠的積欠就是全世界要跟他訂購的在我們之前就包含我們還有我們之前總體來說就有已經是129架左右了 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10933.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10961.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
是 跟委員報告一下這個中間比較容易讓人家誤會的是雖然它都是block拐動但是裡面的細部的選項每一個國家都不一樣我知道我知道每一個國家都不一樣但是它還是必須它有因為每一個公司以洛馬來講它產能也是有限的嘛對不對那你應該很清楚來 我們問一下洛馬公司每年平均的產製F16的F16系列的產能產能他們平均來說每年是產製幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10963.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10984.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
報告委員 這個我要去查一下都有新聞好不好這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下每年能夠去產製平均來說就是23到26架今年等一下我會講這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能對不對 有的但是我們粗算的話落馬公司每年大約23到26這個就是目前的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10988.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11015.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以說官方它也是穩定的有達到每個月兩架年產約24架的這個節奏是有的所以我們看到上一張比我們還要早簽約的然後再加上我們的62加66這樣一共就129了在這129裡面到現在如果我們要排成上去的話我們要如何能夠排得比人家還要前面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11016.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11035.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我們要如何在它每年只能生產大概20多架左右對不起 12720多架左右的這個飛機每年平均產23到26架左右的這個狀況之下我還能夠我們認為明年可以拿到大量的飛機的交集 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11036.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11041.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
跟委員報告現在就是說在這個格林威爾這個產線它所有產的都是我國的戰機它沒有在在這個格林威爾並沒有產其他國家的戰機所以剛剛已經報告了就是說我們現在看到的是生產線在線組裝的總共有50架飛機同時在線組裝它在線組裝50架對不對這是接下來我要跟您討論的事情因為我們要先從它全部的產線來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11064.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11093.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那因為今年他就有講說呢這個媒體有報導啦那今年他們會試圖的製造比較多的F16V當然也跟我們的產線的有關就是這個您剛剛講的50架可是問題是來現在目前F16V他們在整體來上面來說除了產線現在擴大之外他有沒有其他軟體方面的問題是導致於他目前一直延宕的原因軟體方面出了哪些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11094.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11116.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
你們有掌握嗎包委員 這個項目的話我們 光我們國家這個第一個生產的就是設計的這個系統就超過30項所以說每一項我們就跟剛剛您提的那四個國家的飛機其實它的系統跟我們國家是不一樣我們國家這是全世界第一個F-16全數位化的一個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11118.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11146.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以他是不是有軟體上的不同所以我從產能開始講前面一個問題第一個問題我問的是落馬公司他每年能夠做多少的產能第二個問題我要講的就是軟體部分我們目前的F16V如您所說的有很多新的東西要放進來他軟體部分是不是有瑕疵我舉例來講他的發動機的內組件系統是不是美方有告訴我們他目前有瑕疵還在修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11148.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11167.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
包委員 這個我們已經澄清過目前沒有 都是按正常的那請問他們戰機內的內建式的電戰系統的測試狀況有沒有落後有落後這個部分是電戰測試電戰系統的測試的部分它是放在最後面因為要等飛機整個系統設計完這是有排序它的工序 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11168.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11184.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
沒有錯所以我們要講的是今天國防部的報告只告訴我們說呢現在有50架飛機呢正在趕至當中但是就算它這個50架飛機它生產線它做了做要做多久我們還不知道等一下下一個我會開始講人力的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11185.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11199.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
錯了我還不知道但後續他們在我們剛剛講的電站系統上面的這些測試跟生產進度的落後軟體的問題那什麼時候能夠解決呢我們也不知道我們也沒有辦法掌握不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11199.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11215.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
報告委員 這個就跟之前我們第一批F-16交機一樣主攻向就是飛機全部飛回來它的次攻向的部分我們會陸陸續續的它去做一些後面的修改跟研發對啊 那所以就是又會拖到它是有一定的排程我知道啊 沒辦法插到前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11215.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11240.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我沒有要他插到前面去啊因為你一定要按照這個飛機的這個整個整個排依序去做嘛沒有人要他把它插到前面我只是告訴你說不是今天啊我們50架說產線同時再開好像這個就只有做到這裡他後面還有整個這個電站的相關的細節要組合嘛等等這個我們講的軟體的問題最後我要談一個硬體不好意思主席我們再給我一點時間硬體來 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11243.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11271.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
今年落馬他們就有相關的這個新聞寫說呢這個要裁減員工啊裁減員工那2024年落馬他們的預測是2025年要產36家的F16戰機2026年進一步增加但他們其實2025年上半年也只交付7家而已所以我們現在說美方正在全力趕工但是我所知道的我所詢問的狀況是 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11272.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11289.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
其實在美國他們的這個產線即便是全力敢攻但是人力不足你沒有掌握這個情況嗎請說包委員有我沒有掌握這個狀況那目前他們是專責在我們F16生產線上的已經超過200位這個是專責在F16生產線 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11292.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11313.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
對專責在我們生產線上的兩百位嘛對不對至少兩百位但是其實實際上面他們整體在建構這個F6V相關的這個人事上面還有能夠再更增加的空間還在找人對吧因為我知道他們從很多其他州地方去調人過來因為人不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11315.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11334.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
所以我要問的是說我們的F16B你覺得我們的F16B現在目前你說200個人然後產線這個再多增加時間去趕工那這樣的話明年2026年我們在特別條例結束之前那能夠交付的戰機架數能夠到一半嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11335.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11356.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
這個我們會滾動次的修訂現在還沒有辦法明確的告訴委員所以我剛剛人家都問說能不能夠全部交我才問一半而已30出頭價那都不知道所以我們現在目前是不僅沒有辦法確定因為我覺得不可能啦66家都來基本不可能明年的話但明年總是要交出一個成績單吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11358.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11375.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那我们在成绩单的部分来说我们明年总是要给我们一个预估说那会来一个几架吧10架20架还是30架我们会跟美方每个月都会来进行这样子相关的那你之前一定每个月也都有相关的检讨那都是0 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11376.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11405.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
沒有現在就是說剛剛已經講了組裝完畢之後還要進行這個測試對嘛所以我特別我們等測試配型確定之後我們比較能夠有把握跟委員報告好我做一個我做一個結論好不好我覺得今天呢國防部的這個給我們的書面報告裡面你們只寫了在硬體上面然後呢產線要往上加你們只寫了說哎呀要加速趕工可是你們對於這個就算是50架他做完以後那後續還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11407.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11424.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
軟體的部分還有電站系統要整合跟測試的部分都沒有提及今天如果不是我在這裡問的話也沒有人要講那我覺得你如果我們今天在討論的今天的主題非常感謝召委排這個案子就是在講說這些軍購案的延宕的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11425.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11445.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
然後呢這些軍管延宕的問題你只講了硬體的部分你沒有講後續它的軟體它還有很多的難處啊我們本來就一直有講要做系統的一個測試的一個飛行的一個項目啊對啊不是啊你們這個今天的報告裡面你寫延宕的部分你們的解釋就是說我們這個現在已經有50架我沒看錯吧50架然後現在在趕工 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11449.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11457.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
但是我們剛剛講說他們現在目前在整個電站系統裡面的整合出現了測試落後的問題我剛剛講了這個你們也承認有這件事情但你們有寫在報告裡嗎這剛剛已經總部長已經講了這是一個工序的問題它不只是工序的問題你這個軟體你也要成功它現在已經目前有一架是出場典禮的時候有了只是沒有來我們這裡對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11476.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11483.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那它到底這一架裡面它的這個電站系統的測試是成功還是還是有落後的這個事情你們也應該可以問得很清楚吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11487.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11506.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那架飛機是目前硬體的部分電站系統的硬體是分開測試那架飛機上面是不具有電站你看吧那架飛機上面不具有這個我知道它是兩件事所以我才要問你們不能只講一件事不講另外一件事嘛只有一半的話飛機怎麼飛對吧時間的關係之後有時間我再繼續跟你們討論好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11511.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11516.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
但是我希望我們在報告上面要完整我不能說你不誠實但是你要完整大家才知道狀況就像剛剛講什麼48億很多人還以為台幣咧沒有 美金我們講台幣就要對台幣講美金對美金所以是六成不是好像很少的樣子而且你放進去你也不能把它拿出來的這個事情也要跟人民報告清楚謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11539.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11542.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝趙偉那有請部長 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11566.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11586.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
部長好今天大家都很關心這些所謂武器等等延宕的問題當然我們都知道會有一些delay會有一些系統整合的問題這其實跟我們潛艦有遇到類似的問題所以我今天反而因為前面其實真的蠻多委員問過了我也覺得說真的這個理由其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11587.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11613.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我說真的我覺得還滿清楚的所以我覺得我想要問的反而是相反的我想要問就是沒有延宕的一個部分我先從一些比較小的地方問起就是說第一個就是像我們現在就是有這些所謂的個裝我們在做一些這個士兵的一些訪談的時候我們就發現就是那一個下面這個彈夾帶他要去拿彈夾的時候很容易被上面那個流彈帶卡住這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11614.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11643.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
第二個就是這個彈夾帶那個魔鬼氈那個魔鬼氈他有時候他為了要讓它能夠更容易取得他想要就把它往內折一點因為它滿長的那他把它往內折之後再拿還是一樣會卡住那時候我們就有問說那為什麼就是你為什麼一定要把這個手榴彈袋把它放在那個上面他說是因為有一些這些長官他會要求他為了要一致就是希望他能夠大家都擺在一樣的位置但因為每個人的這個使用習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11644.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11663.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
會不同他使用習慣會不同的時候就變成說其實對他來講這個是不方便的但他卻會因為長官的要求變成說他沒有辦法去好好的去拿這一個彈夾所以對我來講就是說這個不管我們的戰術背心不管我們彈夾帶這一些這些都如期較好這沒有什麼延宕的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11665.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11683.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
但是雖然他沒有什麼延宕的問題但是他在這一個使用的過程當中其實我們的士兵在使用他是需要一些回饋機制這個回饋機制就會有因為一些個案會有所不同所以為什麼我說我今天要提這一點就是因為我等一下還會再提別的案子但最主要就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11683.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11694.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
即使今天是沒有延宕的我們一些軍備品的採購等等之類的這一些是不是都有到位是不是士兵會滿意在這一邊是不是先請部長做一個簡單的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11697.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11723.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
據我了解就是說我們現在在114年9月10號有頒了一個令就是說就那個官兵可以依照任務導向安全優先跟穿著素食危險者來已經可以自行調整佩戴的位置跟數量也就是說譬如說那個彈夾戴可以依照個人的習慣然後再調就是說他來調整他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11725.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11726.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11727.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11755.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
位置跟數量這個相關的指導我們在9月10號來已經有辦令了謝謝 因為這一個有時候我覺得這個有幾個層次的問題第一個層次的問題就是它可能是個案我說的個案就是說可能有一些特地的一些中階的長官他可能在這一個下命令的時候他就要求比如整齊花衣什麼等等之類的這一個如果能夠直接跟他要求說不需要這個樣子這個容易解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11756.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11778.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這個沒有什麼問題所以我們才會辦這個令下去就讓這個各部隊的長官不需要這樣子是 所以這一個令就是說我剛剛講的如果是個別的問題如果有這個令下去的話這個容易解決但第二個我要講的就是比如說我們這個在這個背心上的一個設計還有我們這個放的這個位置比如說我們今天要進去比如說我們要到車子裡面有一些車子剛好設計得比較狹窄 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11780.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11805.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以它可能會容易有碰撞又或者說有一些它這個黏性不足有些是黏性太強有一些是黏性不足那這一些呢都會有需要一個回饋機制那我們在問的時候呢就會發現說其實這個它的確都如期交付了這個是士兵們也都在使用那這個軍備局它其實會有一個上面會有一個小卡啦上面有一個電話嘛 對不對就是說如果你有這一個這個也覺得有什麼問題的話你可以打電話也可以來解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11808.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11823.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
但是我們在這個問這一個士兵的同時我們也發現一個問題就是說如果是那種委外的因為我們國軍有一些委外的他說委外的他會填一些這個意見書他覺得這一個回饋的情形是比較好但是在我們這個軍備這個回饋的情形他們認為是比較差 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11826.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11843.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
而且就是也有軍種上的差別看起來空軍的滿意度又比較高一點其他的滿意度稍微比較低所以就是說因為我們在問的時候我們是廣泛的問廣泛的問的時候我們會發現其實不滿意的士兵他是有滿高的數量其實有時候已經有些已經過半了 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11843.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11865.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以針對這樣的一個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣確保一件事情就是今天基層的士兵他們如果對於哪一些裝備他們覺得有這個使用上的這個不滿又或者說他們覺得這個還不如就是我自己去添購就算了我們有些核心當然是我們還是都要公發但是在這個以外的就是在他們有這個不滿這個回饋機制現在有沒有改進因為我們這個是軍人節的時候問他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11870.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11888.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我想第一個就是說國防部必須也要主動來做啦所以現在有會每一季會來邀集這個軍備局跟各軍種就這個這些戰鬥各裝的延改我們需求的延改需求來做一些研討 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11890.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11908.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以包括像114年不管是稅貸等等這些的我們都會來延改那115年我的了解好像也要來執行這些包括戶西戶走 水壤還有彈匣貸等等也要來持續來做一個研討 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11910.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11919.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那官兵的這個管道上面現在是有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統另外還有一個是叫建制幹部這個要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11924.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11945.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
請說 各位好我是侯志士市長那針對於這個反應的部分第一個我們每一季在開會之前我們會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的所有意見來跟這個各軍種做研討第二個同時你向你的上級長官反應之後反應到司令部他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭的資料讓我們來大家各軍種參與研討 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11947.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11961.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那當然有些官士兵會認為說可能外國的裝備或是說他們看過一些更先進的裝備會比較好但是如果說我們統一讓他們去採購的話第一個價格可能會有很大的差異性第二個安全保障我們沒有辦法做到一致性 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11963.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11976.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
因為剛剛也有提到互吸互走我們在問的時候也有問到說互吸互走比較容易磨破什麼等等之類這個也都有在反應剛剛有講到就是說因為我們的確有一些人是滿意的但是不滿意的有在之前有一定的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11977.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11998.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
所以現在我們就是反正這些事情只要是改進都不是問題所以我希望就是剛剛講的這些事情比如說我們兩個月之內我們再來追蹤一次就是說這個士兵現在他們對於這種公發的他們的滿意度他們認為自己的意見有沒有被反映這件事情我們再來做一次追蹤好不好因為我覺得這件事情真的很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11998.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12007.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那剛剛又回到剛剛講的你剛剛說他們今天意見回來之後回來之後呢我們下一次可能再做這一個採購或者再做要把這個納入考慮嘛但這個又會形成下一個問題就是我們的採購的那一個人的那個組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12012.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12033.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
因為我們今天在採購這些這個個裝的時候那個組成裡面比如說我們今天講到這一些互吸互走等等之類的他也會請一些教授學者專家他可能是針對那個磅數有沒有針對那個針織的方法也提供了一些專業的意見這本來沒什麼問題這是好事但是有時候我們看到比如說那個採購的人裡面比如說七個人裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12033.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12054.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
他可能這個軍種來的人可能一兩個然後有一些就是我剛剛講的紡織的專長什麼等等之類的或許在這個部分也可以想像人數不一定要說軍種的人一定要增加但是就是那一個人他一定要能夠帶到剛剛講的基層的意見因為意見回來然後在採購的時候被反映出來這個新的採購才會有辦法變得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12055.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12085.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
这个机制要有一个回馈机制也就是我们确保他们的意见能够上来之后他要能够进入到采购这件事情所以它有两个层次第一个就是我们确保管道的畅通第二个就是我们的采购委员会要确保这个意见有进去不然的话到最后虽然有时候我们知道磅数这个轻量等等之类的这个都是很重要的没有错但是使用经验也是一样的重要所以这个部分希望能够我们在两个月之内我们再来追踪一下这样的一个问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12086.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12112.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那再來就是說這一個我也必須要講就是說不管是這個頭盔 夜視鏡我們在問的時候但是我這邊其實是要講的是它是有進步的因為我們在問這些使用者的時候他們的反應是有進步他們的意見有被反應到的跟剛剛那個彈夾不太一樣只是他認為進步的這個幅度沒有外面的有一些廠商來得更快所以導致他們又會想要自己去購買 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12113.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12135.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
所以這一個是速度的問題這個倒不是我剛剛講的說已經回饋機制完全的失靈而是說我們剛剛講的除了管道的暢通還有採購委員會的意見的納入之外我覺得速度可能也很重要因為有時候在外面這種競爭的速度很快他們改良的速度很快有一些是因為他們在使用上已經在第一線的戰鬥所以他當然他的回饋機制會更快 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12136.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12147.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我們畢竟現在還沒有這個第一線戰鬥的這一個經驗值的回饋所以可能會慢一些所以這個時候要不要把一些比如說國外的經驗納入什麼等等之類的這個就可能之後我們再來討論好 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12150.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12171.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
再來這一個採購委員會的組成我剛剛有提過所以最後我是想提到一件事情就是說因為我們今天一直在講這些武器的延宕什麼等等之類的我們當然知道其實我們現在不管是16V F16V又或者說我們一些飛彈的一些採購這些事情它其實是有符合我們軍種的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12172.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12193.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
所以跟我剛剛講的情形是不太一樣我們是有需求的而且我們的需求是很強烈比如說我們哪些要數位化哪些我們要做新的系統整合這個是我們以台灣的國軍的角度我們有要求其實當我們的要求越多的時候他們可能比如說他們要開新的產線他們要做新的系統的整合這個時候延宕是可能會被預見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12194.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12217.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
所以第一件事情是其實如果當我們的要求變多的時候延宕是可以預見的我們不一定要把這個延宕當作是一個壞事因為我們必須要符合我們的作單需求所以我回過頭來想要看就是我們一般的像我現在講的這種個狀的採買等等之類的這些事情我們並沒有說當然延宕是好事但我們是希望說它中間的過程即使稍微冗長一點即使 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12218.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12244.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
但是能够让作战的需求能够让士兵的需求跟反应能够反映到不管是后续的改善或者采购委员会里面的话那个说真的即使有时候慢了一点点但反而对我们的国军是好事不然就会形成我这边有画一个图就会变成说有时候我们说我们要太旧换新然后我们要作战需求的一个汇整但有时候上面的长官其实对这个非常非常的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12244.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12260.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
他們也知道我們的需求是什麼就有時候中階的這些一些長官可能就想說這個需要什麼就盡量趕那時候的士兵本來就想說我想出需求我可以解決當前的問題我很開心有沒有但是有時候中間就是為了要去趕這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12261.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12287.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
結果反而會忽略了基層的需求那為了趕之後呢然後最後就會變成怎樣呢反正我們先趕快結案不然結案的話我們沒有結案的話我們就沒有這個新品然後這個品質如果出問題的話我們驗收應該怎麼辦到時候可能驗收的標準又改變那這時候基層就會覺得說你怎麼前後不一致然後就會開始有點無力回天的感覺然後就可能在網路上開始做一些抱怨這其實就是會沒有一個正向回饋的機制所以這個一開始那個點反而都是在什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12288.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12309.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
都在需要什麼就盡量趕那個右上角在編列預算到審查預算那個中間就是說我要什麼我就盡量趕我一定要如期我什麼事情都要先把這個期限壓好之後我就一定要做到從那一個瞬間開始在組織文化裡面就會造成今天下面的聲音可能會上不來所以我是希望說我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12310.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12333.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
符合這個官兵的需求符合作戰的需求跟時間我們要找到一個新的平衡點不然的話我們永遠就是說希望就是說我們趕快先把這個做出來因為我們要趕這個年度的預算什麼等等之類的這種時候事情會變得非常沒有彈性最後因為時間的關係我想再問就是廣告最前面有點有跳過的部分就是部長在這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12336.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12354.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
5%這件事情有提到就是說這個核心國防的支出應該要超過3%那逐步增加慢慢到5%那當然第一個呢這個我們按照北約的這個計算方式因為北約希望有這個核心跟非核心的這個支出那部長呢目前我們來講指的這個3%指的是核心的國防支出嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12357.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12375.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
3%的部分現在是核心的國防支出那如果說我們今天逐步增加到5%這個5%指的是核心跟非核心都算在內還是指我們核心就要往這一個5%邁進我想我們會按北約的基準來按北約的基準來做因為我這次在這一個國防工業會議的時候剛剛的核心國防支出也是按北約的也是按照北約 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12376.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12399.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
因為我們在問的時候其實很多人都很關心這個問題這個北約的這個計算標準其實大家都知道那個細節但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是下面這一個就是說我們到底有沒有足夠的人力去評估或者去應對預算的一個增加這個就有點像是我們有一陣子這個財化法的問題一樣就我們財化法就是要把中央很多錢直接挖走然後到地方問題是地方的人力是沒有增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12400.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12421.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
所以他那個預算一下去之後那個公務人員就有點傻住說好 那你現在給我這筆預算你跟我說要做什麼但是我沒有做這些事情的人力比如說我們今天這個人力的配置因為我們當然我們的邊線這是一個問題這就指著我們作戰的這個問題但是光是我們今天預算的增加這件事情它是需要人力去支持跟執行還有因應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12421.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12441.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所以人力這件事情我們如果要逐步往上升的話我們相關的因為我們有作業維持費我們有這個軍購的費用然後我們有一般的這個薪水的支出我們有分這幾塊我們有沒有去評估一下我們在人力這一邊有沒有去針對我們要往3% 5%那個方向邁進的那個足夠的人力去做因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12442.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12469.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我們會針對我們未來的籌購的這些投資案也好 違資案也好 商購案也好然後所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等我們都要來三軍都要來做一個調整所以我們會針對潛在的人力需求還有關於整個編制我們都在做一個滾動式的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12471.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12479.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
因為時間關係 謝謝部長之後預算的部分我可能也會針對這一個去看一下我們人力的編制到底有沒有到位謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝接下來請賴氏堡委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12496.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12517.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請我們的顧部長請顧部長如果其他的長官有需要可以去幫忙我們看今天的主題當然就是我們向美國買的武器沒有進來現在有三項延宕25案有6千多億之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12520.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12522.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
沒有25萬多延宕25萬裡面有些延宕的金額6千億就200億美金左右來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12536.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12553.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
剛剛已經跟委員報告過了報告委員 這個6540億美元這個數字是一個錯誤的數字好卡波研究所它統計的這些我們的那正確是多少 你就跟我講正確多少目前我們所有的25個案項是300餘億是總值300餘億台幣還是美金美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12557.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12560.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
美金300餘億就9000億喔但是這些案子比如像F16V兩棟的案子性能提升1370愛國者三刑第一次籌購的1790這細節不講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12574.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12577.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我跟你講這三項是不是確定海馬仕 延蕩AGM-154C飛彈 F-16V這三項確定吧現在就是三項AGM-154C跟F-16V這個確定嗎跟MK48這個三項剛剛已經跟委員有報告他總體的發價值發價值是82億8千多萬美金是 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12598.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12617.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那就是還是兩千多億啊是那我就跟你講 其中當然最重要就是F16是兩千四百七十二億多F16V原來要什麼時候交貨二零二十原本是二零二三年到二零二六年二零二三開始加第一架嘛那現在第一架現在在哪裡部長要不要解釋在哪裡第一架在哪裡現在在那個美國對 格陵威爾生產線上面在什麼州啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12629.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12651.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
南卡南卡還在生產 出來沒有已經組完了已經組裝完畢組裝完畢 測試沒有現在就在等後續的系統測試跟飛測那一架什麼時候可以飛來台灣大家關心這個我想就是要等到這個測試如果能夠順利完成大概什麼時候我們現在沒有辦法確定這個確切的時間那個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12655.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12663.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我們都知道啦 外面那時候你出任國防部長的時候請問你什麼時候出任的什麼時候出任國防部長去年的520嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12664.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12687.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
去年的520你出任國防部長外面就一抬個問號為什麼你到處都你這個天才這個是全方位的人才什麼都可以做黨長會也可以做不當黨省可以做金管會主委可以做什麼都可以做其中有一個原因很重要有一個原因就是因為你的專長就是法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12689.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12703.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
大律師或者以前叫御用律師律營的御用律師那你用律師的專長看什麼因為未來賴總統已經知道了未來他要跟美國大量採購武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12704.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12716.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
就是說合約很重要什麼履約很重要你就是因為你的法律可以這方面來罩得住可是你前幾天在運會的時候我對你很失望啊你回答說 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12720.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12733.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
沒有辦法任何球場 也沒有球場 什麼都沒有人家要你當部長 就是在法律方面你難道不能夠說 跟他argue一下美國爸爸跟我們講的 台灣兒子統統接受什麼也不敢講話請問你在面對美國 抑或是在海上的delay你可以做什麼事情 你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12743.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12761.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
跟委員報告第一個我想您剛剛忘了提到我也有在國安會待過四年四年 對 也是法律因為你法律背景嘛因為你法律背景國安會有管的就是總統的一個諮詢機關你要不要看一下人家Google怎麼看你就是因為你法律鎮住各方 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12763.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12787.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我對各方的這個評論沒有什麼特別的意見但是我想我有在進到國防部之前有過一些相關的歷練這是第一點 第二點F16B的這一個部分是屬於軍購案那軍購案就是國家對國家 政府對政府那這個部分依照發價數的標準條款的相關規定就是說有任何爭議要來協商解決你有沒有協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12788.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12793.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那我們就是有沒有協商當然有進行協商不然的話問題是還是一直delaydelay你沒有賠償條款也沒有補償條款什麼都沒有所以我就問你交貨日期有沒有改過交貨日期改過沒有改了幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12806.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12833.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
我想我們都一直是在2026年之前預計要能夠完成66架的交運這一個部分到今天並沒有改變這個交運的時間表那我們已經也一直報告就是說現在美國的格林威爾的產線都是在組裝我們的這個戰機那在線的組裝有總共有50架正在組裝那已經也有組裝完成等待測試飛行 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12834.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12861.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我請問你那個錢現在在哪裡我們匯出去的錢在哪裡我們匯出去的錢有的是在FRB帳戶裡面在美國聯邦儲備銀行有的是附到信託的帳戶裡面在美國聯邦儲備銀行對 那個是我們的帳戶啊那是我們的帳戶 匯到那裡給美國沒有也有已經交付給美國政府的好 那個是多少這個部分可能要查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12862.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12875.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
多少要再講一下好不好剛有提到是是是多少多少錢包委員那個FRB的那個帳戶裡面我們現在貸付寄帳的款式多少那講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12877.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12892.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
包委 我們結匯出去大概47億多美金然後交付廠商大概10億美金交付廠商是Lucky Martin對不對10億美金洛克希德馬丁這裡所以我們的帳戶交給廠商10億美金就這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12897.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12903.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
所以這個就問顧部長啊交貨給他 他都沒有給我們這個飛機我們本來就有一個在做這個前置的備料跟生產線開始的時候就依照合約本來就有一個交戶那後來在113年的第一季的時候因為他沒有實際交我們就停戶了來 部長 這個審計部都有報告了審計部對你們也是不滿意的我就問一個 我就做球給你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12925.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12937.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
台灣這裡我們國會議員提出一個東西我們可以不可以因為他予以而再再三的delay所以我們提出一個賠償方式那就是說我繼續跟你買飛機你給我F35更好的F35 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12940.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12949.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
各位報告 我想軍公安都有一定的政府跟政府協商的一個程序政府跟政府買F35啊你給我延遲這麼久 你給我其他F35啊可以嗎 你敢不敢提出來我們會依據我們的防衛戰力的一個需求我們會來適時的跟美方進行討論 檢討但我沒有辦法在這裡面跟您承諾什麼 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12963.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12991.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那最少你可以說那我總算賠償可以叫他賠償一點不要說賠償了補償一點啦補償補償一點因為你是這方面專家啊你律師罪會討價還價的來來來可以嗎我們在美國對外的軍售體系裡面他是沒有這個機制的他本身是一個代替其他國家政府去購買那你的意思就是美國反正美國爸爸怎麼樣把你跌下去我們就鼻子摸一摸就這樣而已變成這樣而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12993.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13009.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
跟委員報告我想軍購案的這個部分剛剛也講了25萬裡面也有很多項都是已經交付那也或者是在交付當中的那所以相關延宕的部分我們也跟美國招待這個會議來進行管制我們會來 部長部長我再問你一個最後一個問題萬一明年底也沒辦法交付咧你怎麼辦相關會依照預算法的相關規定報請行政院來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13019.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13023.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
對美國啊 不是對我們自己啊你說對我們自己 對美國怎麼辦他沒辦法交貨啊到2026年底沒辦法交貨怎麼辦我想我們還是會跟美方進行一個密切的溝通這等於沒有講 我要跟你強調今天最新的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13040.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13048.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
美國國防部長赫格賽斯說美中關係史上最好而且川普說了習近平答應他任內川普任內不會打台灣也就是2028以前台海不會有戰爭所以我預估大概川普卸任之前這筆貨才可能交大概延到2027這個機率很高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13064.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13066.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
結果你都沒有那個因應美國的戰爭部長也講很清楚他們認為以實力來達成區域的和平穩定設施所以我們要武器啊既然要實力我們要武器啊對不對所以這個我最後就一句話我覺得部長你要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13081.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13092.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
對外面要有一點宣示的東西啦你會 早年當部長大家都知道一個原因之一就是你是大律師啊大律師就會討價還借啊結果你對美國來講我看到的是束手無策啊什麼都沒有啊這才是我們比較難過的地方啦部長你要加油好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13104.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13110.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
好 接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請鄭天才委員上台質詢好 主席 各位委員 有請部長請 顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13136.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13163.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
部長好今天排這個專案報告真的是非常感恩但是總統會請你當國防部長我認為他一起有這樣的狀況所以要請這個大律師來去當國防部長所以在這樣一個情形之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13164.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13191.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
如果我們從今天你的報告裡面這個鹽蛋的原因分析真的是我認為你自己應該也不會不會滿意吧這個我們譬如說以這個飛蛋來講因採購最新過行怎麼會是這樣的一個原因呢對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13194.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13221.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以這個部分本來就是最新的怎麼會變成一個理由呢所以這個部分是一個我相信你作為一個律師看這個今天的報告如果你是立法委員恐怕這樣的一個延旦的原因分析都難以接受所以在這樣的一個情形之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13223.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13249.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這個律師總統既然請你當國防部長那正好現在你要發揮律師的專長的時刻該談的就要去談畢竟我當然是要兩國去談就要去談要跟這個廠商談當然要去談 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13252.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13279.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
要談嗎 要不要去談軍國案是政府跟政府之間不管是 我剛有提到國與國之間的談我有提到 所以要去談而不是說他說怎麼就說什麼因為這也會關係到我們後續後續不是還要再編列嗎對不對 那人民怎麼去相信呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13281.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13304.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所以我們就是因為有跟美國在加緊督促這件事情才會有美國已經成立專案小組我們也會依照專案小組還有兩邊的定期會議來督促廠商競速產製交運所以才會有現在兩班之二十小時然後同時有五十架在線組裝這樣子的一個趕工的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13309.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13327.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個除了趕工之外,當然我們期望能夠越早越好我們接下來談另外一個議題買了這麼多的軍購然後接下來還要繼續軍購我一再的提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13328.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13353.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
精良的軍備更要有專精的國軍更要有專精的國軍剛才這個沈伯陽委員也有提到人力的部分我們看這個立法院通過了軍人待遇條例要提高相關的這些軍人的待遇總統也在 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13355.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13383.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
114年今年的6月27號公布施行修正軍人待遇條例第5條的條文請問一下部長這個有你的名字這個令你有附屬嗎附屬表示你同意啊也有卓榮泰院長的名字表示你也同意啊那為什麼不編譯算 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13385.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13400.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
跟委員報告我想籌編預算是行政院基於政府議題的原則會有他的一個思考那院長也一直在院會裡面已經一再的說明那國防部的立場我想我們會整體的規劃相關的這些佳績 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13400.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13423.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那所以也因此在今年四月七月八月都有各項加緊所以我們一直在努力檢討各項待遇因為每個部隊的邊線比不同那每個部隊所需要的專業人才不同所以我們會做一個整體的考量部長這個條例已經公佈施行已經生效了 已經生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13425.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13453.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
之所以會公佈實行就是因為根據中華民國憲法增修條文第三條第二項如果立法院認為有自愛難行可以送請立法院復議就是立法院沒有認為立法院認為沒有自愛難行所以沒有送立法院復議啊既然沒有自愛難行然後也同意總統公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13456.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13483.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
公布啦生效啦就應該依法來編列為什麼不編列不依憲法不依這個法律中央法規標準法都規定啊所以這個部長你要去說服院長走龍臺院長去說服他真的是需要精良的國軍啊你看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13485.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13510.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我們當初買武器的時候當時109年以前那個人力比這個還高109年之後不斷的減少大幅下降無論是軍官士官士兵都大幅的下降尤其是士兵這些武器都要有人所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13511.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13537.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
部長你要去說服你要告訴部長跟委報告委員表上面這個書子可能是在講我們在人員維持會所設定的一個預算原額那我們今年的預算原額我們今年提出來的預算我們現在提出來的預算原額是非常的合適來編列所以我們避免還要在繳回的情況之下我們是比較合適編列不是實際的在營人數有減少這麼多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13538.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13565.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個我已經講過很多次了部長 至少它是下降的你把那個實際的書面數字提供給我 可以嗎好 我們實際的這個相關有一些可能涉及到我想沒有 密密對 可能我們另外私下如果委員要了解我們私下再跟委員報告可能不宜公開做一個數目最重要的就是要有英良的國軍以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13573.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13576.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
謝謝接下來請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝麻煩請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13596.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13625.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
好 部長好 本席跟很多委員都一直關心我們軍人待遇的一個部分那今天剛剛鄭天才委員已經先秀出來了6月27號經總統公佈在立法院三讀通過的法令並且總統公佈也已經生效在6月27號我想請教一下我們國防部明年的總預算算是創新高那什麼時候國防部的預算編列到行政院來做一個統整 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13627.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13644.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
您說我們的年度預算嗎是的我們的年度預算已經特有行政已經向貴院提出我知道啊 我說八月的時候行政院公報明年的各部會的預算嘛那我想要問的是說什麼時候我們國防部確認我們國防部的預算跟主計處這邊來做一個確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13648.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13663.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
報告委員是大概8月初的時候確認8月初好所以6月27號正式公告的軍人待遇提升到8月初才跟行政院做確認這中間國防部有沒有試著想要提高編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13665.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13682.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我想這個整個過程都是依照有沒有試著想要提高編列我想這個都是基於行政議題有沒有試著想要提高編列行政院的政策指導部長 本席有問過主席長主席長也講就是這個就是本席現在要跟您這邊來就教一些討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13683.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13698.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
您身為國防部的大家長三軍所有的弟兄都應該要捍衛他們的權益6月27號就已經公布生效了現在行政院院長講是說要釋憲但是國防部有沒有試著想要為軍人來去做爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13699.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13726.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
國防部在今年的4月7月8月都分別調整了各項的家籍嗎部長 不要顧著而言他本席現在在問A就答A這是很基本邏輯ABC我想您過去也在法學學有專精本席尊重您在法學的一個地位那一樣啊依法行政不是最重要的嗎國防部的立場就是說我們6月27號已經公告了國防部連爭取都不敢爭取嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13728.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13755.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我們的立場就是我們不斷的會來提升軍人的待遇那我們114年已經你們不斷的提升軍人的待遇但是本席就想問的是6月27公告之後國防部到底有沒有試圖想要跟組織處來講說立法院已經三讀通過啦 總統已經公告啦那該編的要編啊還是國防部現在也受限行政院行政院一個眼神一個指令你們連編都不敢編 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13757.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13781.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
連要求都不敢要求連幫我們國軍弟兄站出來捍衛都不敢捍衛跟委員報告我想國防部就這個如果說主計處那邊有主計處的考量甚至行政院院長卓龍泰他要扛下來講說他要釋憲那我們去找行政院院長但本席現在想要問的立場是國防部到底有沒有幫我們三軍弟兄來做爭取行政院確實已經提出釋憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13785.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13805.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
行政院提出釋憲行政院提出釋憲但重點是我們到底國防部國防部基於行政議題的原則當然要遵從行政院的政策指導所以你現在就是行政院院長在違法亂紀要做違憲的事情明明三讀通過的法令他可以不遵守國防部也要跟著不遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13805.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13824.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我想國防部的立場還是會從整體的規劃來不斷的來根據我們現在邊線比較不足的地方我們來提升這個軍人的相關的家計待遇我想今天的基尋就是把民進黨政府的泡泡給戳破到底誰在幫軍人講話6月27號總統已經公告的法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13831.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13845.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
國防部你到八月你才要送出你們部的預算去跟主計處以及行政院來做統整連要求都不敢要求連要求讓行政院打回票都不敢要求部長這樣怎麼領導統一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13853.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13877.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我想我們還是強調就是說行政院對於國家施政的各項預算分配有一個整體的考量那國防部會尊重部長 等你當到行政院院長的時候再來講國家預算通盤考量但現在你是國防部部長的一天我要麻煩你 要求你你應該要想的是三軍弟兄所有的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13878.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13907.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
而且是合法的權益應得的權利應當的權利這也是我們在立法院三讀通過的法案什麼時候可以行政部門一個部會不遵守立法院的決議到這種程度而且這件事情照理講我們通過是所有官兵弟兄大家受惠就像我們在爭取譬如說警察條例的時候警政署長至少他不會反彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13908.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13925.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
內政部內政部有內政部可能警政署長他不敢講反對我們爭取消防人士的時候消防署長不敢反彈但你現在是國防部長你連幫弟兄喊都不敢喊送上去都不敢送上去你連被拒絕的勇氣都沒有我問過主席長主席長是說沒有送那今天已經看得清楚就是國防部也不敢送 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13937.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13960.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
然後就是要等所謂的釋憲但是法令通過之後該依法行政就當依法行政不是嗎我想還是再次強調國防部非常重視軍人的待遇提升那基於行政議題的原則本不尊重行政對國家施政各項預算的一個整體的思考只有你這句話當作最後結尾大家都在看大家都看非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13962.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13973.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
為軍人弟兄捍衛權益不是嘴巴講實質做用實質做出來大家都在看 謝謝我想相關的待遇我們會做一個整體的規劃考量好 謝謝接下來請林義軍委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13993.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13995.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
謝謝主席有請國安部顧部長請顧部長林委 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14005.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14013.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
部長早 立法院在109年就通過了新式戰機的採購的特別預算那國防部也規劃在109年到115年循軍購的方式籌備了66架F16V的戰機還有相關的資源的系統和裝備經費整個是2472億那我想請問一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14027.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14031.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這筆編列將近2500億的特別預算也就是對美國採購的66架的預算案眼看的明年應該就要執行完畢了但現在問題就是原本應該在112年就應該交機的結果一架都交不出來那現在都已經11月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14047.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14060.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
114年都要過完了竟然還是一架都沒有交機那整個騎乘一再的延宕又延宕那你們今天在報告中簡單的說延宕的原因是原規劃於115年權術非凡而且權力趕工那本席認為說115年要交付這66架應該是不太可能吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14068.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14080.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以到底國防部有沒有掌握美國方面的這方面的交付的進度呢因為每次只要是遇到F16V的交機的整個進度的延宕你們國防部都是很肯定的公開的說明而且還信誓旦旦的說明說每次在某一個時間點一定會開始交機那結果時間快到了又改口說要再繼續延宕那請問國防部目前對這一個新的交機的期程的規劃到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14099.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14119.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
跟委員報告 我想我們有附戰機的生產線來做限定查核那洛馬公司現在就是以每日平日這個兩班之二十小時來加速戰機的生產那在線組裝的有總共同時有五十架的飛機那另外也有已經完成集體組裝的那現在要等 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14120.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14135.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
要做一個測試的飛行然後如果測試順利的話那就會來進行交機那如果測試順利之後後續的交機就會比較可以進行加速來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14136.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14140.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
那國安部到底有沒有派人去了解美國工廠實際上面的產製的進度呢如果有的話有沒有覺得說為什麼會錯估每次都錯估這整個的交付進度還是你們只是口頭上的去詢問美方而已還是美方根本就是不同意也不准我們過去呢這方面可以說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14159.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14178.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
跟委員報告這個從專案一開始我們的助長人員就已經開始進駐那每個月都有在這個專案會議裡面做一個了解掌握進度那最新的進度跟委員報告就是剛剛陳如剛剛部長所報告的我們現在有50架飛機在南卡的這個格林威爾 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14179.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14194.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
這個生產線而且這個整個生產線現在目前裡面只有我們國家的飛機所有的這個生產的飛機都是由準備交給我們國家的飛機那整個50架飛機有10架飛機在年底可以完成組裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14195.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14218.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那組裝完成之後就可以進行飛試飛試如果說順利的話那後面的進度就可以比較加快加速那這個整個工程的部分還是有一些系統上的整合的這個問題所以說我們一直沒辦法跟委員做一個明確的答覆因為後續還有很多的工項要進行那整個生產線的部分大概是這樣跟委員做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14219.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14224.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
好 那我再詢問另外一個也是採購延宕的案子就是鳳展裝案明明141架的F16AV飛機現在都已經全部升級了嘛升級F16的戰機了但是為什麼裝在飛機上面的AGM的154C的整個飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14238.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14266.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
到現在都還沒有交付呢而且據了解原本這個專案規劃的期間是101年到112年然後後來又把111年延到115年然後在115年再繼續展延到117年那我想請問一下就是這些飛彈到底要展延多少次還有到底要拖多久還有未來的交付的進度和期程究竟是怎麼規劃應該不是不能說的秘密吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14267.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14294.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
老師跟委員報告因為陳委員剛剛提到的這個是在奉展專案奉展專案是101年開始到112年那在這過程中我們在106年美方同意供售這一項武器因為這個大專案飛機系統提升裡面也包含了幾個武器系統跟製系統還有一些裝備那在106年他們同意供售之後我們在108年修的發價書就把這個工項先放上去但是放上去之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14295.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14323.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個美軍一直跟合約商不敢做一個完成預約因為我們的構型是最新構型在108年這個最新構型都還沒有做出來所以說當時只是戰況在110年那後面陸陸續續我們越來越明朗他們也對這個產線的整合也越來越清楚所以說目前最新的進度是從我們今天的報告裡面提到在116到117年能夠完成這個整個彈的交付 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14325 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14330.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以像現在有那麼多的軍購案都是跟美國採購的然後川普都不斷的施壓要我們台灣都一直增加國防的軍費支出甚至到GDP的10%那我們要怎麼相信美國啊因為我們等不到武器啊又等不到零件啊那我們這樣的合作不是都變冤大頭了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14344.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14351.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
所以我在想說還有未來國防部可能有1.3兆的國防特別預算這一筆特別預算還涉及到許多軍事的採購的經費而且這是非常龐大的特別預算而且據這個了解這很多都是美國的採購裝備但是如果國防部一直都沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14364.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14369.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
而且都是這樣就是一直在這些延宕的情況下這樣又沒有辦法把這個交付期程可以規劃得很好的話這樣我們的立法院怎麼相信你們的執行能力呢而且怎麼樣可以通過你們編列的預算呢我想全台灣的人民應該都沒有辦法接受這樣吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14385.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14402.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
所以我還是想說既然我們現在很多情況是沒有辦法馬上做到國防自主但是至少我們是買方也應該要有採購自主的權利所以請國防部要加油一定要透過多元的管道積極督促美方的履約這樣可以做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14403.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14426.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
跟委員報告 我想剛剛我們在報告裡面提到大概說主要的武器裝備我們大約有25個案子事實上很多的武器裝備都已經交運完畢或者是在交運中包括托斯2B 標槍飛彈 海馬4還有最近成軍的M1A2等等的所以並不是說我們跟美方的這些軍購案好像它全部都在延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14427.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14452.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
延宕是我們不願意看到的但是對於這個相關的這些軍購案來講也是很有很多部分主要的武器裝備都是有如期的交運或者是交運完畢的狀況所以我想我們跟美方會對這個案子包括這個大家關切F16B會我們不斷的來增進這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14459.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14473.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
產運交制的一個速度我想美方也很有誠意特別有一個專案小組來督促我們也會跟他定期來做一個檢討我們當然很希望F16B的飛機趕快的測試完畢之後來進行交付 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14477.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14491.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
好那剛才部長有提到就是那個M1A2T的戰車的情況所以我們在10月31號那一天有一個成軍典禮嘛那我現在想要請問一下說目前交付的80輛都應該到貨了對不對報告委員是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14496.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14521.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那同樣對美國採購100套的陸射魚叉飛彈系統這個是不是也在有案期程中在交付呢包委員我們第一批的4輛發射車跟雷達車已經在今年7月份到8月份已經交運了那前面因為COVID-19耽誤的這個進度目前我們也逐漸在趕上來我們持續的督促美方安援機關針對魚叉飛彈這個案子去加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14522.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14525.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那我剛才為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案是因為本席在115年年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案竟然有一點偷偷被加價了因為NYA2T的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14538.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14539.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
名稱是新型戰車採購案為什麼115年度跟114年度的預算書來比起來預算上漲整整48億元而且總計有108輛的戰車都已經到達已經到了80輛 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14554.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14563.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算呢而且還有一個是入社魚叉飛彈的系統這個計畫的名稱是魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統這個預算也增加了36億元那這魚叉飛彈的預算增加的原因到底是什麼而且這兩個軍購案這樣其實加起來增加了總共有84億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14579.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14589.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
但你們的預算書說明裡面卻沒有非常說明為什麼要增加這些預算但想說如果沒有被發現或許84億你們就這樣模糊過關了我想說你們可能要說明一下為什麼光這兩筆採購案的預算就增加了84億元呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14599.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14622.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
包委員我就陸軍的48億我先簡要的報告這個屆時在大院預算審議的時候我們會先向各委員辦公室去逐步的說明那後面甚至也會在召委的規劃之下可能會來安排一個專報那我先簡單的說這個是在初始整個我們預算編列的時候就跟美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14626.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14643.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
發價書上面有預算不足的情形那當初我們也是一直持續的在認為有溢價的空間那在這個過程當中後面到了最終到了第五版的發價書已經沒有下修的空間那我們也啟動了相關的整規書和相關的補足這個預算的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14647.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14665.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
先做一個解藥的報告所以我想這48億元我覺得還是認為國防部有必要向本委員會提供相關的採購的清單因為突然在這兩年就馬上最後兩年突然多了48億那當然我們會想要知道到底採購了些什麼是可以嗎報告可以是OK |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14673.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14701.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那接下來我想請教一下部長另外一個問題就是輕型巡防艦原本按照原本的計畫是不是應該今年第三季交付第一艘的防空型而且在明年的第二季交付第二艘的反潛型是不是應該是這樣但是在115年的預算書上面看來交件的進度有點延宕了改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14705.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14732.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
有關慶幸巡防艦的部分由於它的主機在這個主合約商的供貨的履約的能力上面它有一些這個落後所以目前它的主機會延到會在所以會在116年是變了116年的一個才會兩艘會在116年會來完成這個交接那我想請問一下就是這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家是中科院還是中信造船 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14733.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14752.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
這個的主業商是中信是中信造船那主機的部分是國外的廠商所以這個案子是海軍直接跟中信造船簽約的是這樣嗎是所以我比較在意的是那罰款最後因為他已經就是延宕了這個罰款整個到最後是不是直接回到國庫呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14755.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14760.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
就是你海軍是不是對中信造船裁罰裁罰之後這一筆費用是不是會回到國庫呢是的那我也就覺得奇怪了為什麼我上一次10月23在國防部業務報告中有說到漢祥公司針對永英高交機這個整個交機的延宕罰款的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14777.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14785.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我說就全部都進入中科院的營運基金的小金庫但是中科院院長有說那天有說是三成留在中科院七成全部繳回國庫但是實際上漢祥付給中科院的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14795.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14800.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
全部都是進到中科院的營運基金嘛竟然還可以列入當年度的會計的總收入甚至還拿去繳稅了這樣怎麼會合理呢你們覺得這樣合理嗎因為這個是不是太荒謬了呢這些罰款本來就是應該要交給國家的錢怎麼會被中科院全部拿去付其他的支出呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14818.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14822.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
甚至拿來繳稅了那部長你覺得這樣中科院把這個罰款這樣使用是合理的嗎那中科院不是穩賺不賠的法人單位嗎那這樣是不是不合理的機制呢那部長是不是要請國防部要好好重新調整整個制度還是有什麼樣的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14839.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14865.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
委員當時在那個空軍委制我們我們跟漢祥簽約的時候因為我們是合約的甲方漢祥是合約的乙方所以說漢祥現在罰金繳給我們以後我們再先列入我們本院的收入再依照相關的稅制去繳回國庫但是上次質詢的時候我也跟委員講說其實這樣子的方式是由他檢討的必要性的所以未來再有類似的委制案的時候我們也會去改變一下這樣的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14866.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14889.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
因為我覺得這個還是要檢討啦因為出錢的是國防部嘛現在全部的罰金都是到了你們的營運基金結果是你們整個加減掉總支出之後的年度剩餘之後還要繳20%的營業所得稅之後才繳回國庫我覺得這個是比較不合理的機制所以我想國防部針對這個事情可能要處理一下是謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14899.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14902.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請部長請顧部長黃委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14921.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14930.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
部長好 針對潛電國造台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們向來所抱持的政策立場是至此 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14932.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14958.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
因為支持所以在去年處理相關預算的時候我們除了要求在原型艦海策成功之前先凍結8艘50%的預算也就是有4艘的錢完全可以都同意其他的我們並沒有做太強就是強度太強的監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14960.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14974.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做希望給我們國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵多一點的空間讓他們去做所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14976.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15004.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
不過最近過去這段時間所發生的一些事情讓我們不得不重新的去思考重新的去調整重新的去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情因為有非常多的國人提出質疑的事情是我們第一艘的原型艦我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15007.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15034.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
海軍參謀長報告 願意見是493億493億 同一個時期 日本的艙經號你知不知道他們的預算是多少報言 有掌握到媒體上面大概是151到170億之間中間的價差是 我們做的是等級比較高 比較厲害潛的比較深 開的比較快 武器比較精良 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15036.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15041.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
三倍以上三倍以上的價格具體的原因是什麼日本做150億我們做193億 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15048.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15068.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
委員報告他這個裡面的部分會有包括這個設施的建造就是包括相關的這些然後還有海軍的這個武器款的部分那建造的這個成本的部分人力物料跟造艦的部分大概加起來是應該是368你說的是日本嗎我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15076.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15096.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
剛剛不是說493億嗎那個要加上那個廠房的建造因為是第一艘嘛所以還有海軍的武器款那沒有關係還是比人家貴兩倍以上所以我現在問的事情是我們現在做的首艘的原型艦是潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15097.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15122.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我想因為第一艘的這個潛艦的一個製造跟日本說自製這個潛艦他們這麼早就起源甚早了他們這個傳統的鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術所以他們一直有在持續建造當中所以可以大幅的降低建造的成本第一艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15123.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15145.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
給比較多的預算比較大的空間我剛剛跟部長說明過台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的所以過去我們沒有多說什麼但是最近發生的一些事情我們一個一個來看去年我看法定預算你們本來今年是要編9億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15148.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15172.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那今年所提出來的預算書我拜讀了預算書以後是依照本部114年就是今年8月4號國海紀管制的那個令核定那核定的預算只有1億4560萬那大幅減少了8億多的金額理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15176.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15203.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
跟委員報告那今年本來原型間編的是9億但是因為這個魚雷的部分它有延遲的分批交運所以我們把扣掉的這個魚雷款要往因為沒有交運我們也就沒有付所以今年扣掉7.7億是我們今年實際上編列的1.4億全部都是魚雷的是的然後跟7月3號扶航測試的結果沒有關係沒有關係完全沒有關係嗎是的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15205.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15220.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我們接下來再來看上個禮拜媒體披露說海昆號一出港就勝水台船發了聲明嚴厲的駁斥說絕對沒有這樣的事情請問有沒有這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15224.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15242.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
報委員沒有這件事情完全沒有這樣的事情是的所以呢現在這個海昆號如果出航如果進行潛航的話會不會出現聖水的狀況你們現在有掌握嗎報委員不會有這個狀況目前都絕對不會有這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15243.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15267.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我們一定會是達到安全跟無魚子的狀況下來試試沒有關係 我今天只要一個清楚的答案一個清楚的承諾事後會不會有這樣的狀況我們留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗因為我不喜歡臆測 媒體這樣子寫有人提出這樣的質疑從台船的立場來看 台船一定說沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15268.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15288.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
因為他要做這個生意他要繼續做嘛那但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力已經有很多雜音出來了啦那所以我希望國防部也好海軍也好有你們的立場清楚的表明讓國人安心啊因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15290.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15306.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
有潛艦巡商經驗的前海軍上校黃振輝他也很擔心我們現在這個原型艦接下來會不會時程不斷延後預算無止境的追加所以你們現在編的預算第一艘要497億498億按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15314.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15325.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
鮑遠現在第一燒目前的部分這個在人力部分台船花了比較多的這個人力的一個沒有啦所以我就問你錢夠不夠啊預算會不會再追加第一燒目前沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15326.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15352.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
第一艘不會你的意思是後期艘會嗎後期艘現在預算書表我們現在在做後續建的剛開始在第一個年度我們會持續的針對著相關的建造跟後續的測試還有相關的裝備我們會做一個合理的估算所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎報告委員就是這個我們會審慎繼續來評估目前是啊所以你還是沒有回答我的問題預算會不會再追加 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15355.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15380.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
第一個是原型件他跟我說不會我相信他後續的會不會再追加是我的第二個問題我想後續件要依照這個建造跟測試其實狀況跟經驗我們來我們就來看海昆號之前去乾屋裡面做測試乾屋測試9月2號出屋了到目前為止有沒有出現什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15384.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15409.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
針對潛航的測試下一個階段的潛航的測試什麼時候要進行我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了現在主要就是兩個測試有有有 那個報告我都有看所以我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試我們現在還在進行調教當中是 要調教多久我們當然是希望11月能夠進行一個相關的一個再進行扶航測試11月 有信心嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15411.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15428.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我們現在 按照現在這個狀況來講我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行赴訪測試可以11月測試嗎 沒有啦我必須要說啦 雖然是在野黨的立委但是作為台灣的一份子 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15429.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15458.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我們花了這麼多的心神花了這麼多的時間投入了精力去做潛艦國造我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣大家都希望成功沒有人希望他失敗但是我們希望他成功的同時這不是只有主觀的期待而已啊外界所提出來的一些質疑我們作為立法委員就是必須要關心是不是真的能夠如期的成功因為事實上整個的時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15460.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15478.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差那不是不相信你們我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗來去擔心未來可能會出現的問題這個就牽涉到下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15479.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15492.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我們的原型艦我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的六個小功率引擎然後後續艦會改成德國MTU公司的引擎這個資訊正確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15495.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15521.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
抱怨這個資訊先得到商情跟後續的獲得我們建議不在這邊做好沒有關係啦你這樣說我尊重但我之所以會這樣問這都是我從公開的資訊整理出來的結果那我從公開的資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後我當然我自己不會見錢水艇啊我也不是這方面的專家那我就要去請教專家嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15522.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15538.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那專家給我的feedback提醒我們要注意的事情是說如果原型件假設啦如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的是瑞典那家公司的六個小公寓引擎 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15540.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15559.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
後續見因為有六個小公寓引擎我無意去批評這家瑞典公司但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了完全不合格媒體這樣的批評有道理沒有道理我們事後都可以再檢視你符不符合作戰的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15560.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15583.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那但是現在如果後續件改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好所以才要改那現在有個問題是原型件跟後續件我們當初投入這麼大的資源做原型件就是希望它的規格相關的配備可以作為後續件一個非常重要的前道但是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15584.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15597.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
連主機的引擎一個六個一個兩個不同的廠牌然後裡面的設計相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15599.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15621.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點這樣子的問題有沒有道理還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情目前國防部已經了然於胸後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15622.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15630.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場這些質疑有沒有道理我再強調一次後續都有時間可以檢驗請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15635.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15653.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
跟委員報告 針對後續艦的 不管是在構型或是其他的裝備的選取我們都會透過 本來就是會在一個選商的一個機制都會符合這個作戰的需求還有它後續的可能遇到的一個對不起 你沒有回答我的問題我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係還是原型艦蓋原型艦的 後續艦蓋後續艦的兩個沒有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15660.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15686.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
要說明的就是說這些我們都有審慎評估也會覺得您我們如果說是必要的這個構型或是必要的調整都在原先的作戰需求的設計規範裡面也都是符合他作戰需求所以我 你還是沒有回答我的問題啊我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦為什麼原型艦要海撤成功後面才要解凍就第一艘成功了嘛長這個樣子沒有問題了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15688.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15703.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那後面的部分所以我們同意解凍嘛但今天聽你給我對我問題的回覆似乎是說你們心裡好像也有準備後續件長得也跟原型件會不太一樣是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15705.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15727.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
後續艦長的跟原型艦會不太一樣它的外表構型跟流線是一樣作戰需求不會調整至於有些動力部分調整跟剛才委員所以動力的部分是會調整嗎依照就這個地方我們不做再進行的討論因為這個涉及到商源跟其他有關的部分沒有關係啊我再講一次我們的基本立場我希望潛艦國造可以成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15728.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15744.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
背負了非常多國人的期待也投入了相當多的資源但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了在這件事情上面我們國會真的有必要後續未來也會加強監督的力道好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15757.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15772.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
接下來請葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有葉元芝委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15773.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15791.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限者從其鎖定之前上個禮拜我們有要求台船提供海昆艦就是我們原型艦的這個相關資料那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15792.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15811.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
收整完因為我們有要求說可能要部長還有我們海軍其實是要認證就是包括他的海關的證明各方面就是相關的那個資料再提供好那本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家 |