| IVOD_ID |
16993 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16993 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-30T08:32:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-30T16:17:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:44:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685eb9b513302bbc703761f4f0346d20822c15c14682415554628bed1ebd00568205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）
邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢。
（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）
一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。
（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。
（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】
【逐條討論】
【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:50 - 16:17:00 |
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現在繼續開會本會議議程為邀請衛福部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會、海巡署就如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防毒持續強化阻絕疫情於國門同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫提出專題報告並被質詢 |
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專題報告審討結束後繼續審查行政院函請審議黨團委員分別凝聚職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案計21案以及審查委員分別凝聚職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案計10案那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員我們第一位是陳昭之陳委員第二位是盧憲一盧委員 |
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1672.765 |
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第三位是王振旭 王委員列席官員是衛福部部長施崇良市民藥物管理署署長江志剛 |
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1691.057 |
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1704.624 |
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謝謝 心理健康師師長陳柏熙謝謝還有農業部動植防疫檢驗署署長杜力華好 畜牧師檢驗濟證陳俊隆謝謝續產試驗所組長陳文賢收益研究所所長鄧明忠 |
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1746.179 |
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財政部官務署副署長蘇淑珍還有關稅查緝組組長郭寬淵通關業務組副組長潘秀華交通部行政司副市長盧清泉公路局運輸組組長梁國國中華郵政股份有限公司郵政處處長柯清長經濟部商業發展署組長簡俊良 |
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謝謝還有數位發展部數位產業署組長林清清謝謝海洋委員會海巡署副署長許靜芝謝謝謝謝巡弘署參議許蘭祥謝謝情報組專門委員陳怡玲好我們接下來請衛務部事務長來做報告 |
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主席還有各位委員各位女士先生今天呢呃呃社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會會議邀請那麼深感榮幸呃以下呢今就 |
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1798.433 |
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1820.652 |
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之就如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵持續強化主角疫情於國門同時優化國內後續對於非洲豬瘟防疫來進行專題報告來請敬請各位委員不定指教那第一個呢是有關於輸入的食品的管理是屬於跨部會的合作 |
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涉及到本部的食品藥物管理署農業部跟財政部關務署等單位本部食品藥物管理署主管在食品衛生安全之邊境查驗程序經查驗符合規定才可核發輸入許可通知後再由海關系統來依程序通關放行如果查驗不符規定的就依照食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法 |
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1851.136 |
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1874.626 |
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這個邊境就予以退運或者是銷毀那麼第二個有關於國外食品運送路徑的方式多元可能透過海運空運或者是國際包裹等形式輸入但是不論輸入方式如何都要符合食品安全衛生管理法的規範那麼經過這個申請輸入查驗符合規定才可輸入那麼至於有一些民眾 |
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1896.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
可能因自用所需那麼從國外輸入或吸入相關的食品自用那這些呢商品這些食品就必須按照食安法第30條第3項的規定那麼限制在一般食品是在6公斤價值1000美元以下才可免申請輸入查驗那麼至於呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1897.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1922.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個非洲豬瘟疫區的豬肉肉品則是全部在禁止輸入或者是吸入的這個範圍裡頭那本部的食藥署則持續在各個港部的辦事處都會有宣傳那麼加強這個業者跟民眾對於豬瘟非洲豬瘟防疫的認知而對於國內市場也做後市場的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1923.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1951.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
茶盒那麼不論是在食品製造或者是餐飲 販售業 攤商等等的豬肉品的來源那麼也加強的集合那麼今年呢70月為止已經集查超過三萬五千多家那麼經常都不符合的這個規定那所有的輸入食品再次強調都必須依照食安法規定那麼基於防疫議題那麼我們也會持續的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1952.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1962.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
跟各部會來對於輸入食品在邊境把關持續的強化那麼也請各位大衛各位委員那麼不吝指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1968.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1992.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 謝謝 那有關本市會議各項書面資料經列入紀錄跟公報 現在開始詢答 做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間六加二分鐘 列席委員時間一分鐘 十點半截止發言登記 委員如果有書面質詢 請議長會請提出 一起不受理暫定十點半 休息十分鐘 那本會不處理臨時提案 現在請登記第一委員盧秀一委員來做發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1998.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2026.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
主席有請我們關務署來請關務署部署長部署好那我想問說我們先看一下那個第一張號就是我們現在如臨大敵我們先看看他原本的樣貌他長這個樣子也就是所謂的非洲非洲豬瘟的在顯微鏡下看的樣子第二張 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2028.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2054.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那我們現在看那個高階判讀人員中階判讀人員這些我們知道這些人力是這個樣子那我想問你說真正的S關機的偵測率的成功率跟判讀率是多少關屋署有沒有實際的數據有沒有成功率或是誤判率這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2055.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2071.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
報告委員 我是官務查緝的組長就是說那個就是說X光只要是有異常的我們官員都會拉下來當然就是說拉下來之後如果是大部分的都是因為我們要精準打擊所以拉下來的話大部分都會有查獲物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2072.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2101.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
希望說如果因為我們的中階就是看中階的人比較多嘛高階是比較少所以你真正要去把關的就是要嚴格把關這個人數沒有那麼多那你有沒有強調說要去以後要從AI的判讀啊或者是輔助啊來增加這些人力的一個耗損或者說他們的loading跟我有報告其實我們官員就是我們這個X光影像判讀的我們分了三個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2102.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2113.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
三個階級嘛初中高那我們其實通過這個高階的這個測驗的同仁都已經有超過大概有七八成那麼我們在110年7月的時候我們已經有開始運用AI來輔助判讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2119.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2148.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那當時是針對毒品的部分那我們在114到117我們有一個計劃會把這個肉品還有相關的這個菸品等等也會納入我們整個一個AI的影像判斷我希望速度可以快一點因為我們現在已經如臨大敵所以一定要把這些我們剛才講的數據正確率 誤判率這些要弄出來然後AI輔助讓我們的人力不要那麼辛苦好不好是OK 謝謝那有請我們的農業部是請杜署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2154.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2174.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你知道現在我們國內的豬的產值是多少嗎目前是我們的所有防疫對象是5441場再加上它相關的一個周邊大概有2000億我剛剛大概算了一下我們一個國人大概平均一年吃40公斤的豬肉 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2175.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2201.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那如果是一斤一百塊的話大概就是一千億嘛那其他的負邊的產值可能就超過兩千億那我想要問的就是說這次這個繁育期間很多人可能受到限制比如說他沒有辦法殺豬沒有辦法有豬肉的販賣那我想你在繁育的時候可能養豬會得到補償可是我想知道有些靠豬吃飯的我們尤其是原住民有些是烤豬肉的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2202.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2224.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
達人或者是攤商 小吃業者這些有沒有在規劃裡面補助的規劃裡面報告委員我們現在大概是針對一級生產鏈有相關的都有研擬的補助措施那至於是在市場裡面的攤商的部分因為是直接受害所以這個部分也有列入到經濟部的一個補償的一個範疇裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2225.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2252.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那至于在餐厅小吃部等等这些有没有扩及到这些相关的关系人那这个部分我想这个经济部也正在研明中对我想说可不可以动用我们农业天然灾害的救助基金或者是农业发展基金来补偿这些因为因猪而要靠猪生活的这些所谓的层次的一些商人或者是族人得到一些适当的补偿 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2253.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2272.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
包委員一級生產鏈的所有的環節我們都我們也看到一個新聞就是非常就是很可怕的新聞就是說可能會影響到我們的山豬那如果說山豬被感染的話就可能就是全台灣都淪陷了所以這個有沒有一個監測的機制或者說有沒有一個防範的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2273.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2301.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一般我們在做非洲豬瘟口蹄疫的時候及豬瘟的時候我們一年年度就有一些監測針對山豬的監測計畫那現在昨天這個為了台中的這個像沙鹿啦後里等等有幾場山豬在活動的區域那也要求他們針對廚餘的收集區跟處理區一定要委網來阻止山豬這個他可能不定期不定時的一個侵入 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2302.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2316.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我想附帶問的一個問題就是說現在廚餘如果你要煮到幾度的話比較不會有一些感染的風險是 這個部分真的經過所有的科學所蒐集的資料是90度 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2318.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2346.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
一小時 但是要攪拌喔我還有看到五十度 六十度 七十度其實要讓病毒不活化最好還是依照這個規定去執行所以可能這個部分要早一點讓國人知道因為我覺得到目前為止我很像在看新聞的時候或是看一些廣告的時候還是沒有看到這些相關的作文好 這個一定要加強 是 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們的防疫人才呢目前就是說 針對獸醫者或者是獸醫這個部分你們目前的那個進度在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2348.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2367.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
報告其實在今年的六月份的時候總統也體諒到所有的部門的獸醫師他們工作的辛苦所以已經有跟他們比照這個不開業獎金就是醫師的不開業獎金這個部分已經有提列了後來看到那個新聞說一場吃五百塊的樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2368.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2384.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那個是特育獸醫師這針對每個場次他的規模的大小不同如果一般比較有一定的規模他一定會有駐場的獸醫師但是有些小型的可能他這個成本也很高所以他用合作契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2384.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2410.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以可能短期可能没有办法马上遏制这个病毒所以我觉得这个长期来看的话还是要规划这些人力的那个补足或者是训练比如说目前的兽医师只有8%是在从事这方面的工作你又怎么来引诱或者是说来吸引我们这些从事畜牧业的这些专业人才来从事这方面的防范作为确实 兽医师如果考上兽医师都喜欢去小动物 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2410.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2429.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
是 對 那我們要經濟動物大家都讓他們來從事這方面的工作所以我們這個部分應該是要加強他們的一些補貼或者是獎勵OK 可以嗎這個在畜牧法裡面我想應該是會部裡面會再同仇的再做一些商議好 謝謝那我們請衛福部謝謝來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2434.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2445.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我也很早對 部長現在如果查到違規的這些東西我們是怎麼來執行比如說它的SOP 時效 銷毀時程有沒有透明 有沒有一個監督的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2447.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2466.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委員您提的是說查到有來自於那個非洲豬瘟疫區的肉品那他就會違反兩個可能的這個違反樣態第一個是說他會違反我們在剛剛提到邊境輸入的時候他就要去申報因為在邊境 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2467.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2480.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有申報的來自於這個這個非洲豬瘟疫區的直接就會退運或銷毀了根本不會進來所以會進來的都是非法輸入所以他就違反了我們食安法30條的規定那就會開罰16萬到 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2482.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2487.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
現在正在進行羅氏人才當中今年行政院有多給我們24位在邊境查驗的人力現在我們正在招募 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2501.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2515.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們看一下一些國外的一個成功的案例因為現在我們像才剛剛接觸這個病毒而且是非常的陌生不過在國際上應該是都已經努力了一段時間所以有一些成功的契機 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2517.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2538.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
可能它就是如果是失敗的話它大概有兩個原因就是最下面那一行就是可能我們在生物檢測這個部分的檢測不足第二個就是我剛才講的可能民眾沒有被告知還有或者是廠商沒有被告知就是human behavior這個部分它成功的契機大概有四個方向我給部長請你參考一下下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2541.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2563.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就是說可能因為有我們之前有一些國際的組織然後我們可能沒有在那個組織裡面可能需要去參考他的一些他的model裡面他已經有規劃好了他的一些路徑或者是說他應該怎麼做其實他這個知識都已經非常的充足希望國內跟國際要接軌而不是說我們國內做我們的都不去參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2564.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2581.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
目前越南 中國是在做什麼我覺得應該是要這樣然後有一些就是我們的風險的溝通這些風險溝通就是要跟我們這些弱品市場的業者或者是這些我們從事這方面的行業的人去做一些我們跟政府部門的一個媒合跟合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2581.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2603.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
看看這個病毒要怎麼防治最主要就是我們政府要大力來支持這些所有的損失跟以後的預防的一些就是裁員好不好好謝謝盧委員提供的這個寶貴的資料謝謝謝謝盧委員 謝謝部長請回接下來請陳昭志委員來做詢問謝謝主席麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2610.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2616.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
關務署副署長還有防檢署的杜署長請署長 副署長蘇副署長杜署長兩位署長早根據我的邏輯思考這個非洲這個豬瘟的病毒他不可能憑空出現在臺灣那應該就是說帶有病毒的豬肉產品他被夾帶入境了 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2637.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2652.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
但是這個豬肉檯面也不可能自己飛進台灣所以應該有三個途徑第一個就是旅客自己攜帶入境第二個是快遞包裹入境第三個是走私入境這三種途徑請問兩位認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2655.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2681.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
是這三種途徑嘛那麼根據這個農業部最新的統計數據從2018年到10月23號旅客吸入的這個豬肉產品不管是自主丟棄或是被查獲那個防檢署會總有9511件違規輸入的產品那其中997件被查到是豬瘟是陽性也就是違規輸入的豬肉品當中有一成大概10.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2683.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2698.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有驗出非洲的植物病毒那這個比率是相當高的可是我要確認一下我一直到昨天晚上我才知道這個數字還只是僅限於旅客吸入的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2699.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2729.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
只限於旅客吸入的部分喔這個是你們前兩天的報告就是房檢署的報告那這張圖我想請兩位收看這張圖這張圖是昨天房檢署回覆給我的資料我要了好多天辦公室同時有詢問說快遞輸入的豬肉產品裁罰案件數當中我們就問他快遞輸入這個途徑進來而且被裁罰的有多少裡面是含著非洲豬瘟的病毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2730.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2745.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
但是您可以想見嗎這個署長房檢署的同仁回答說這個部分因為關務署查獲快遞包括有豬肉製品的時候只會用書面通知房檢署不會有樣本 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2746.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2762.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
換句話說根本就不會去檢驗是否有非洲豬瘟這件事非常讓我震驚當你發現有豬肉產品的時候根本不做下一步的檢驗就是通知書面通知這個防檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2763.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2781.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
做記錄當然更不會切片啊什麼讓他們有機會去做這個豬瘟的檢驗那所以我想請教防疫組認為快遞包裹的這個豬肉不用驗不用驗非洲豬瘟嗎我想請署長跟副署長兩位說明一下為什麼不需要去驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2782.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2809.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那個委員我跟您報告我更正資料沒有您剛剛講的那個數據是所有不僅僅是旅客你包括國際或郵輪包括還有包括快捷這些攔下來的攔截物我們全部把它收集起來一定燒毀這第一個步驟一定燒毀那燒毀前因為海關通知我們這一定是被檢出檢出物才會通知我們假設毒品就通知其他的一個單位那我們第一個動作也會抽檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2809.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2823.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那這些的抽檢數就一定第一時間送到這個獸醫所去做檢測所以這個裡面才發現到說所有的丟棄物裡面有10%是屬於陽性的其他9%是陰性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2825.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2843.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
就是說你那個說母數好了因為真正母數沒有人知道但是我要再確認一下因為我昨天才詢問那個上面那個有快遞輸入的這個裁罰案件你也看到很少嘛我們要問的就是說快遞輸入的這個裁罰案件中可是同仁就回答說關務署查獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2845.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2872.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個快遞包裹裡面有豬肉產品的時候只是書面回覆書面告知這個防檢署他不會有樣本的你沒有樣本你怎麼抽驗跟委員報告跟委員報告海關就是在查驗這個入境旅客行李不管是這個在機場或者是這個郵輪的旅客的行李以及這個郵包 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2873.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2893.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
或者是快遞貨物包括空運快遞海運快遞我們只要是查獲是裡頭有豬肉或者是豬肉製品的話我們立即就是通知房檢署我們通知他是由他們來處理那房檢署來他們會把這個按貨那他們就會是拿回去處理會去做這個檢驗那我從這個數字來看那有可能這幾件你這快遞輸入的東西就這幾件被塞到有這個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2901.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2917.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個部分我還是要再釐清你現在是用這個說法我也讓你有充分時間來說明但是事實上我還是有質疑的就是說旅客吸入的也許你們是比較能夠去處理不管是他丟棄或是說你查獲然後但是快遞的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2918.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2928.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個是非常量非常龐大那個請報告就是快遞的部分我們是書面通知防檢署來海關這邊來處理讓他們來處理的話就會把這個我們查獲的這一這個都切片嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2935.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2957.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那回去的話是房檢署他們會去做相關的檢驗這就是房檢署後續他的處理好 這個我要再確認我暫時就是說你就這樣說法那個黑色框框 下一張這是我從臉書一個公開的團購社團的截圖他標榜第一手是大陸源頭的發貨裡面賣好多豬絞精什麼魚香肉絲飯內含小豬肉的自煮火鍋 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2958.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2978.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
啊其實任何人你在網路上輸入這幾個字啊大陸中國零食啊馬上就有這種購買連結啦什麼蝦皮啊臉書這個團購12團line社群的但是這些不都是在這個邊境一查到就要被查棄的嗎為什麼在網路上可以賣而且很自豪說我你看左邊那個黑框的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2978.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2996.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我發貨就是說發貨速度低代表說供貨速度很穩定喔而且他支持各式各樣的這個物流那我覺得國人入境大家都會互相提醒我們不要帶這個肉製品大家都很努力怎麼這麼久了我們發現這個政府的責任好像是有問題喔公開的團購社團這麼猖獗 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2999.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3016.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
到現在今天還在營運喔那我繼續讓大家看紅色框框紅色框框紅色框框是在你在網路上隨便打這個集運特貨等一下這兩個字詞我再想請教你們理不理解馬上就會出現蝦皮或是小紅書的這個廣告業者的截圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3019.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3036.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
他甚至會告訴你集運業者標榜說我可以運送特殊敏感貨物那在小紅書上面甚至說直接說我可以承接雞爪還有豬腳筋等等的訂貨那我先請教副署長您知道什麼叫做集運什麼叫特貨嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3037.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3053.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
您知道嗎 我跟 我跟委員報告其實我們現在每天都有上網去做搜尋那只要看到這些違規的廣告全部都會到我們合作就是有電商 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3054.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3068.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
平台合作的請他下架那假設就讓他們有幾個的措施現在大概有屏蔽措施屏蔽措施就是會讓你看不到那假設有漏網之魚看得到那麼他們也會做即時處理那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3071.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3093.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他們也會自主管理時間很有限 我等下跟主席多聊一兩分鐘AI的部分假設是台灣來自台灣的AI下訂的時候你也買不到你也買不到那即使你訂了你刷的是台灣的信用卡但是他公然在網路上你跟我說他買不到而且長久這個好像很穩定供貨那我想再請問一下夾帶豬肉的產品回到我們今天主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3094.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3112.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
有多少來自這種集運包裹你知道集運嘛各地買然後集中在一起一起然後再合併包裹然後這樣子可以減少運費啊那我再說明一下有多少來自還是你沒有辦法講清楚不是不是因為這樣講是所有的包裹是海關這一邊他們過關以後然後X光檢查有疑慮他就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3113.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3129.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
第一時間通知我們我們就過去來判定那假設有豬肉產品我們開箱有豬肉產品我們一定收集以後我們抽驗然後呢集合在一起這種特殊疾運不是只有中國運到台灣因為越南也有因為這次爆發的這個非洲豬瘟 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3130.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3146.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好像有報告說是病毒豬是越南的病毒豬所以有很大可能這一次是來自越南的豬肉產品這還有病毒造成但是我要講說這麼明目張膽的宣傳這個敏感貨物 特殊貨物請問關務署有掌握這些業者嗎你有掌握這些業者嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3148.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3171.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
跟委員報告因為這個是平台平台這個部分還有這個這個就是電商平台其實不是屬於這個業者不是海關這邊轄管不是海關那是誰呢但是我們這邊我們這邊就是我們現在因為我們要加強來這個查核我們現在會要求這個以後快遞貨物網購 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3173.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3183.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
網購的這個貨物的一個報關的時候我們要求他必須要申報電商平台跟集運商的這個相關資訊讓我們去去做這個整個一個風險的一個管控那你剛剛你剛才提到了你X光夠不夠啊你檢疫數這個全這個數量夠嗎集貨包裹你全部有破包嗎集貨集運的這種包裹現在很多耶我們快遞貨物全部百分之百過X光 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3198.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3225.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
全部100%所以我們如果在影像判讀上面看到有異常就會拉下來那個數字還是很有問題啦謝謝你 那我請教一下江署長你們的預算裡面有一個科目叫做食品邊境查驗及國內外稽查管理請問這個科目有用在夾帶豬肉包裹還有去驗豬瘟病毒的部分嗎這個費用有用在這個地方嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3227.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3243.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們所有費用都在邊境查驗的時候在應用那對於食品裡面對非洲豬瘟因為非洲豬瘟是對人體是沒有危害所以我們在食品面其實目前是沒有特別去驗但是我們有這個能力但是我們目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3244.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3264.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
就是說目前 我現在在業務的處理就是說你們是依照食安法剛剛部長有報告就是對進口食品 藥品有沒有違法這個添加當然我們最重要就是譬如說這個有沒有瘦肉精等等那當海關發現有夾帶豬肋包裹的時候以及動植物 要涉及動植物的檢驗檢疫的時候 防疫檢驗他會通知的是防檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3266.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3272.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他不是通知你們 因為他們要來進行那個病毒的核酸檢驗我這個說法對嗎食藥署沒有負責做這個非洲溫豬的這個檢驗有沒有我們沒有 目前沒有做非洲溫豬但是我們準備有這樣子的量能做核酸檢驗好 你有這個能力 但是目前這個業務不是你們嘛我要談的還是一個啦 就是假訊息啦這個好 這個卓冠廷民進黨側翼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3293.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3314.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
山林媒體等等啦 他們就在造謠啊說這個是食藥署的邊境管制預算是因為這個不能山 因為跟豬瘟是有關這次就是因為山在這裡豬瘟的部分就爆發了 這寫的這樣堂堂皇皇這個整個就是假消息在誤導啊這個部分不是食藥署的工作嘛不是食藥署工作嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3316.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3340.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
測個病毒不是你們在做的嘛測病毒不是 但是針對我們的進口食品包括保健來源所有的是屬於非疫區裡面跟疫區裡面的我會清楚的規定那你現在沒錢去做這個所以今天住戶份爆發了有點這樣你要不要做一個釐清呢就麻煩署長您就再講一下您現在負責的東西是什麼那筆預算是用在什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3341.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3361.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們對於這邊境的預算其實我們的人力去查查所有的商品所有的商品也包含了我們可能不是在合法的進口的區域的任何商品不管是食品裡面或者是違法的肉品的進口非疫區的肉品等等都會是我們查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3362.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3390.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
但是我們並沒有查查的時候去檢驗所以檢驗那一塊的話事實上是在跨部署裡面跟農業部進一步的協作這一次的豬瘟的事件是跟食藥署應該是不掛鉤的因為委員這樣提議的話我們非常感謝也沒有你的責任嘛是不是是這樣嗎好謝謝謝謝謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝陳委希望請回那個要不要請拿一杯溫開水給杜署長只有待 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3391.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3407.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
還是沒有誰有活片可以提供給杜署長這已經可能因為非洲豬瘟搞得很累那個署長如果要給杜署長提供一些訊息可能別的官員在背景可能要小聲一點好不好 我剛才不好意思把你岔掉來 請陳清惠委員謝謝主席 我想請石部長來 請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3422.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3423.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
曾委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3426.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3455.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
部長好這個議題其實我也非常的關心而且跟非洲豬瘟一樣非常嚴重很多人已經在新聞上看到最近為什麼大家又發現兒科醫師大出走是因為北榮直接說他們有四位總醫師都不願意留任那另外你也看到台大醫院的主任已經下海開始值班那我昨天有去請教了一些台大小兒科的前輩他們說像今年錄取例 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3457.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3480.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
1.5他們雖然把它做成一個網路上的笑話是苦中作樂啦但他說錄取率1.5已經持續三年了那為什麼今年才特別被人家注意是因為主任也必須要下海值班你可能以為錄取率而科醫師1.5是單純台大問題我們攤開全國的各專科醫師最新住院醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3481.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3506.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
招收率還有兒科住院醫師招收率等等這是平均就是五成不是只有台大醫院問題是全國的問題但為什麼你需要來搶救這件事情是因為醫學中心都已經淪陷了醫學中心是最後一線全國大家不懂的不會的就送到醫學中心台大榮總等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3507.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3532.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那連醫學中心都變成主任院長要下來值班那他們的教學怎麼辦研究怎麼辦行政怎麼辦所以這是一個惡性循環我知道您之前曾經提過說你要去培養急重症人才尤其是兒科急診專科醫師的人才這樣才可以舒緩兒科的人力嘛結果呢我跟您報告最近兩年全國就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3534.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3561.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
31個兒科的急診醫師離開醫院您是急診醫師你很懂啊那在基隆市新竹市像這樣子都會區兒科醫師平均一個人照顧是300到500個人宜蘭一個兒科醫師要照顧的是21820人遠超過全國平均1165人所以我認為您這個問題因為其實累積了多年那今年一口氣爆發 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3563.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3579.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
你可能需要更快的方式來處理你有沒有什麼想法跟委員說明確實我看了這個近五年的這個兒科的招收率我們現在兒科的容額大概在每年130個左右那麼兒科的招收率大概都在六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3580.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3594.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
去年才到七成勉強到七成所以換言之就是各位您的這個資料看到就七八十位啦所以以這樣的數目確實難以因應全國的需求您講的六成是他願意訓練還有留任問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3595.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3619.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那就是后来训练完之后的流向流向的话目前大概三成八留在医院那另外有六成二就是在基层开业所以我们现在从去年开始第一步对于这个走儿科的住院医师有津贴就一年每个月有一万块的津贴给走儿科的住院医师以及他的fellow他比如说他是选儿童遗传 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3619.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3646.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
或者是儿童的一些次专科重症的ICU急诊次专科类似像这样如果是小儿外科的话每个月是津贴是3万这去年开始我们再观察后面第二个是我们在总额的部分明年会特别匡列从0到6岁在总额的部分匡列249亿这专门给儿科来调整支付标准 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3646.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3665.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
然后保障1.1块钱所以把所有的0到6岁儿童的住院的费用要全面性的调高那么让这个在医院里面做集中症的这个儿科医师的收入可以提高那这是第二个第三个在贫贱的部分我们过去贫贱是像一般性贫贱 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3666.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3685.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那會特別融入在醫學中心的部分都需要有兒科的專門評鑑過去我們是只有兒童醫院有專門兒童的評鑑那我們是有四家兒童醫院明年開始我們的醫學中心的兒科所有的醫學中心的兒科都是我們重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3686.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3711.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
要平的部分也把它融入在評鑑裡頭同時另外一個因為剛剛跟委員說明了大概有六成二的兒科醫師是在基層開業所以我們包含了0到3歲的幼兒專責醫師制度還有從兒童的核心醫院到責任醫院我們也結合開業的醫師大家一起來照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3712.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3739.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我先问一个问题刚刚那个住院医师fellow可以多拿一万很好但你看今年北荣的问题就是他们结束了住院医师他是之后的留任对啊对他就是训练的时候有然后之后要训练完之后有没有要留在医院所以我们才会把他再纳入在平健里头同时把儿科儿童的住院的给他拉高那保障一个总额那我刚刚提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3740.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3760.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
急诊的专者儿童医师怎么办他流失很快没有人要做我们是一步一步来因为如果我们现在把所有的儿童到急诊都要儿科来看会雪上加霜所以我们现在先不要要求说所有的儿童到急诊来都要儿科医师来看 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3761.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3787.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
反而是应该先第一步的他需要只要做一些比较那个小baby就是我们比较小的确实是需要然后用区域联防的方式儿科用照会的方式就好然后我们一步一步的在把这个儿童的照护强化在这个急诊的部分所以我们另外有一个网络就是儿童医疗网的部分那个是去强化儿童的急诊你这样讲急诊医师可能也会跳起来 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3788.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3812.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
不会啦我是急诊出生的我们过去的训练里头就包含处理儿童的问题因为急诊医师的流失现在跟儿科医师的流失是在比速度这个急诊的问题是另外一块那就是刚刚提到那个急诊的拥塞那个需要处理所以我们现在积极的在处理这个急诊拥塞的问题来降低急诊医师的负荷这样好这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3814.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3834.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
當然我們很贊成您做這個優化兒童醫療照護計畫但很多全國的兒童醫院院長他們完全不敢公開講所以我來幫他們講他們希望問你說優化兒童醫療照護計畫的錢已經11月了但是還沒有撥下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3834.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3848.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
是不是真的因为你每年都说明年会改善但现在要11月了还没有给钱医院要自己垫像你这样子的效率你刚讲很多0到6岁拨了一笔钱等等你这个效率是怎么支持儿童医疗 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3849.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3867.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
预算是应该已经有在这里现在是拨款您提的是拨款的速度这个我再了解一下那个意思是在这个拨款的部分我会来这个注意这个拨款的速度一周你会告诉我我才可以告诉这些院长一周内一周内对好 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3868.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3890.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
另外也跟委員報告就是說今年另外還有一個這個叫做健康台灣生根計畫這個到明年底一共是160億那裡面對於這個兒童的兒童醫院都拿到了這個每個醫院幾乎都是有1億的補助在給他們去發展依照不同醫院提出來的計畫好 再來有一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3893.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3920.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
勞動部我質詢勞動部結果勞動部說要問你啊勞動部部長直接走到我前面說這個問題你要問的是衛福部部長這是他們即將推出的看一下這張圖的右邊勞動部說呢未來1月1號很快兩個月後就要開始了可以用日來申請育嬰留職停薪所以他在小孩子兩歲以內好像可以請30天最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3920.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3943.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那我們會遇到什麼問題因為醫事人員跟托育人員已經開始跟我陳情那你一定要盡快準備因為趕快找勞動部溝通你只剩下兩個月可以準備第一這個我自己也有請過現在暈流停最少大概是一個月像我們這樣子醫事人員護理師醫師放射師等等的我們要跑兩個地方一個是公會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3944.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3970.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
公會是辦你的職業登記你現在的這個有在做這個業務還是沒有在做這個業務這個是公會在管的那衛生局就是管你的職登就是說我現在在哪一個機構上班所以之前還沒有實施彈性暈流停的時候護理師就已經抱怨連連的因為他們要跑流程要跑公會要跑衛生局還要跟院方要停職證明復職證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3972.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3991.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
这个我了解这个就是停业登记就是说如果你是没有执行业务要办理这个停业登记那这个是短期的不用这个在行政程序上我会请一致私立课发文这种短期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3992.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4018.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
这个育婴流停有的是长期啦你一次两年的那你就要先去这个办理这个没有一个月的也要啊一个月两个月三个月都要啊都要啊对我们会把它处理这个程序上我们来谈一下现在很多护理师他其实是愿意的他不一定想要请长期他觉得这样一天一天请是很好但我不希望这些流程太过繁琐到最后他就不想请了反而一口气请久一点 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4020.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4033.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們現在當然很在意的是護理師護理師也有一個護理師黃但其實醫師 藥師 檢驗師所有的醫事員你都必須要一起把他研擬進去所以你多久內多久內一個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4034.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4059.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
一个月内可以给我们这个然后另外你也会发给全部各地的卫生局所有的卫生局跟医院去遵循去简化这个程序不需要这样很繁复那第二个这个也是您的业务范围内就是托育人员托育人员他们有这样子的一个系统可以看到这个机构他每一个托育人员目前的托育数规定是1比5但是如果他做到1比4是可以有补助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4059.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4080.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
也是一样遇到一样的问题假使这位托育人员他要请弹性孕假就必须要把他移除移除就是停业停业就要把他的托育数放到别人的身上所以他也许一个机构他其实是很体恤他的同仁的所以他让他请弹性但却因为这样子影响到他拿补助的机会这样怎么办呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4082.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4101.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
就是说他没有额外的不是他让他请了弹性育婴可是他的就类似我们的呼病笔1比4个小孩本来他可以达到被你补助的被你奖励的结果他就被迫变成1比5他就拿不到怎么办 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4103.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4126.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為這個還牽涉到那個這個托育人員的loading所以如果馬上就說通通就他的loading也增加了他等於是這個機構沒有多餘的彈性能力像在醫院的話他這個育嬰留庭的時候就會有另外的護理人員來照顧因為之前當然因為之前育嬰留庭比較久 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4128.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4137.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
比較長是月嘛以月為單位的嘛那當然就可以去儲備這些人物現在是1月1號改成以日為單位以日 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4139.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4161.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你是不是要找社家署短期我是覺得還可以的但是如果是比較長的時間也不好這樣的話那個托育的品質也會下降我再找社家署討論一下第一個問題是這個主席第二個問題很快要結束第二個問題是我現在問了所有的托營機構還有地方政府的社會局現在地方政府社會局量能是不足的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4161.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4184.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以對他們而言也是一樣的意思他們現在光是跑這個行政流程就是說他們要請一個月的暈假他們就是跑行政流程要辦理停業倒職離職等等至少要三天以上比剛講到的衛生局還要久三天以上喔所以他們現在也無所適從他不知道說他請了他必須要等到這個流程跑完他才可以放這個假 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4185.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4202.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
還是說他可以先去照顧他小孩一天然後回來等這個流程跑完沒關係並且地方的社會局應該也沒有辦法應付這樣子的狀況跟我剛講到一模一樣行政程序跟照顧比這個也是一個月內可以拿到您的報告謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4214.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4228.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
接下來請邱正軍委員來做懸檔主席好啊我們請農業部請署長房間一署署長房間署 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4239.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4259.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
昨天我在這邊問了陳俊吉部長的時候他很肯定的說非洲豬瘟不是本土的所以就是從邊境放進來的那既然是從外面來的那就三個方式嘛第一是人帶進來第二是貨物包裹寄進來第三是走私進來那還有其他可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4261.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4270.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
目前這三個也是我們的原因之一我知道會有其他的方式嗎不會是鳥帶進來的吧不會 它跟禽流感不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4272.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4300.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以就是這三個 還有嗎目前我們追查的方向也是如此那從2005年國際通報發生非洲豬瘟的有83個國家那最近三年曾發生非洲豬瘟的國家也有75個那我想請問一下我們農業部現在認定非洲豬瘟高風險的地區有幾個我們認定的是有39個為什麼只有39個 其他75個我們最近三年有75個為什麼只有認定39個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4302.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4315.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
其實我們是依照國際疫情的趨勢去做滾動的檢查那什麼叫趨勢咧 他們這些有發生不就是高風險地區嗎我請副組長說明一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4315.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4344.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
是各位報告我們都會即時的就是搜尋國際組織的網易還有各國的一些疫情的資訊來了解說在哪些國家發生疫情還有哪些國家可能會途經這個地區作為一個中轉旅客中轉的地區來輸到台灣來所以我們這是一個滾動檢討的一個過程我現在比較好奇的就是說這些75個國家有這個3年內有這個案例那為什麼我們只追蹤到39個這個原因在哪裡為什麼只有39 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4346.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4351.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
其實39個國家是作為裁罰的依據只要來自非洲其他75個減掉39都大概是31 36 36個他不會裁罰意思是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4360.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4385.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
農業部有公告一個非洲豬瘟的非疫區的國家的名單那它就發生啊那為什麼它是非疫區咧你跟我們講要經過我們的書面資料的審核跟必要時做實地評估通過之後才會列在農業部你評估的標準是什麼我們有一個專家學組的委員會會先審視它的書面資料那要多少才要發生幾個案例才能夠算是高風險地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4387.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4407.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
應該是回到剛剛跟委員報告的議題就是說我們列這個非疫區的名單如果不在這非疫區名單就是疫區只是要不要裁罰就是39個國家我覺得很奇怪你們這樣追蹤這樣怎麼會擋得住咧對不對他75個我們現在知道三年內就有75個國家我們只追蹤我們只限制管制這個39個這不是很奇怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4411.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4437.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因為我們的活豬跟豬肉相關產品都只能從非洲豬瘟的非疫區國家輸入 疫區進來的都不能進來但只是後續的採拔我們是看這個高風險的國家 我還聽不懂你講什麼我是現在是講說那75為什麼你追蹤39那另外的是可以進來就對了 這樣子好不好 那個委員我這個的詳細的在會後以後我今天就提供資料給您說我們這個很奇怪嘛好你等一下再給我資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4440.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4462.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我這樣講 就是說邊境管制就算我們沒有這次非洲豬瘟的問題像這些75個國家我們應該我們自己邊境管制也要更嚴格不是嗎 對不對其實我們這7年來就是如此你剛剛就講了就沒有做到第二個 現在我在講人入境 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4463.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4491.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
如果旅客或國人帶加工肉製品入境台灣都要申報檢疫如果偷帶查到就20萬對不對不管是不是從非洲豬瘟疫區入境都一樣對不對沒錯吧那我再問這個關務署我們財政部我們現在一年總共進口多少國際包裹 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4492.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4506.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們大概如果是快遞的話一年大概有6000平均6000萬件左右一年只有6000萬件快遞我查的資料2021年11月單月就有619萬大概就6000萬左右一年就6000萬嘛那針對剛剛農業部所說非洲豬瘟高風險地區進來的國際包裹我們的抽菸率是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4517.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4541.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
跟委員報告我們就是包裹就是不管是快遞或者是這個郵包我們全部都是百分之百的X光我現在講的是人工抽驗那人工抽驗的話就是說在這個X光影像上面看到如果有異常我們就是會馬上來做這個人工的一個開箱的一個查驗你要看到異常才會開箱 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4544.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4565.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
對 因為這個一方面就是人力的問題另外一方面就是通關速度的一個問題所以為什麼要利用這個X光的一個影像我們一般低價免貨物稅的抽菸率大概是3%左右對吧那是平均對啊 平均3%嘛那高風險地區的抽菸率有更高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4567.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4582.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
高風險的其實其實就是說剛剛跟委員報告的高風險的也是就是從X光的影像來看然後我們會加強不是啊 我覺得很奇怪你一般都是3%左右那高風險你不會提高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4585.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4598.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
跟委員報告大概我們針對高風險的譬如說是從這個中國大陸這邊大概我們的就只有中國大陸是高風險地區其他地方不是嗎跟委員報告大概是4.59%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4602.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4618.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
4.59%這樣我大概算了一下就是從你們112年到114年兩年半大概放行的這個1億5000萬個包裹那關武署查獲只有大概1321件那通報比率不到千分之一的千分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4619.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4636.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這樣的數字難怪你們的報告完全不敢寫出來還好意思說邊境多嚴格你們剛才直接說這個食安五環邊境管理早就已經棄守了嘛那現在每一件都是用S光來檢查那就表示你們這樣就是嚴格防疫的意思囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4638.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4657.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
跟委員報告其實X光檢查是本來就一定要經過X光檢查你現在所謂的精進作為我看到你們報告裡面說精進作為那要怎麼精進是像跟委員報告是提高人工開箱查驗比例嗎是提高人工的一個開箱查驗比例你剛剛講說X光照道有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4660.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4679.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
你們才會人工開箱那你現在要精進你現在又說是要用人工開箱來精進你這個邏輯就不對了嘛因為委員報告是說剛才說這個S光這是本來就是我們會經過S光也就是說你們人工抽驗不是依照S光的這個看到有問題的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4681.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4694.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
來做這個開箱檢驗嘛 對不對那你現在要精進就是要精進要提高我們人工開箱的抽檢率對不對跟我們報告X光如果有異常一定開箱因為我們有經過我們的風險管理它的通關方式那你說精進的話你要怎麼做我們精進的話目前我們針對這個查驗的件數我們至少要提高20%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4705.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4717.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
精進 就是要查控那你要多少人工 你知道嗎至少要提高20%以下總共以後要20% 是什麼時候開始是 我們就立即就開始了而且我們24號 你人手過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4719.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4740.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們現在就是說就是在這個我們的人力的一個我們就是全部充分來利用然後就是盡量你提高我下個月會開始看你的抽菸率那我現在在問動物製品有1000就是移送的這是1321件裡面有269件是豬肉那請問一下開罰多少罰了幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4746.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4754.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
委員報告 這個開罰的部分是房檢署這邊好 你好開罰是委員講的是郵包對好 郵包大概是開罰9件開罰9件 14 9案吧對180萬是那實際查獲違規的包裹有幾件實際查獲的包裹是幾件海關已給我們調查就是9件 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4775.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4790.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就只有9件 就只查到9件就對了查到9件嗎269件是出漏欸 那你為什麼只開罰 只開罰這個9件我修正一下 海關移給我們的1300件左右那整個立案的大概是9件 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4790.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4805.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
對啊 為什麼呢有269件是豬肉耶因為身份的認證的問題對啊 我就覺得你們的規定很奇怪你知道嗎你們現在規定說如果他不在非洲豬瘟疫區裡面寄豬肉這個製品過來是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4807.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4833.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那第二個如果他從疫區寄肉品來台灣寄件人跟收件人不一樣查到也不罰 不行那個委員我報告一下所有只要肉品絕對都不能進來不管你是非洲豬瘟如果是第一次從疫區自己帶進來也不罰嗎完全都不行那為什麼269件你只罰9件那是身份問題因為當時他在登記的時候有時候是假身份所以我們去追查 假身份你追不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4834.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4848.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
追不到 他那個追不到所以他是用假名字對 用假名字總會有人領嘛就是不敢領他總會有個地址有人去領啊所以我們追到收件人 那收件人否認不是他寄的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4849.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4867.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
每個人都這樣玩就好啦 你是怎麼把關呢這個目前是這樣 因為這個也有一個考量一個情形不是 這個就很大的一個漏洞嘛你不覺得嗎 對不對他用假名字 然後我們不罰 但也許他用假名字 可是他總要領這個東西嘛沒有領 其實很多是沒有領那他寄進來幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4870.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4890.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
邱委員我先報告一下難道是共產黨的陰謀所有的貨品是進不來也就已經 貨是一定銷毀但人的處理上我們去追罰員那追罰員就有身份的問題我知道嘛 我的意思是說他寄這個肉進來你說你當然沒有給他進來沒錯啊我的意思是說他寄進來他總是有一個目的啊對不對 不然他寄這個東西幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4891.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4917.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
因為現在就有一個問題假設說好我們現在他是假身份我們追查到他然後他說不是我不是我叫人家記的也不是我認識的人記的那如果我們開罰那真的是就又錯殺了但是這個所以我覺得你們要想個辦法了好不好因為時間也不夠最後一個問題最後一個問題啊主席不好意思剛剛講的39個國家的那經我們查是因為跟我們國家有航班晚來 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4918.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4934.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以是39個 盤點以後對是39個國家那我再問就是說最後一個就是昨天我們部長說這個基因定序明天會出來可是又說中國沒上傳這個序列所以沒辦法判斷來源這個定序不是就 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4935.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4963.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
比对全球吗要找出最接近的病毒株研判可能传入的来源你们之前也说其中有一部分是跟越南病毒很相近那现在怎么样现在是中国的序列没有中国序列就没办法比对是这样吗不是 跟委员报告因为病毒是会演化的那我们病毒的基因序列就入了他的身份证那我们之前的那这样防疫有用吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4964.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4988.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
基本上你還是要知道它病毒的序列才知道它的病毒的特性你不是說它會演變它會演化就像Covid-19一樣它也會演化那你查得不到它來源就對了所以如果是它有公布最新的序列我們的序列就像禽流感一樣它有公布最新的序列了我們就可以知道它從哪一個路徑譬如說我今天比對到跟北海道一樣它就是從北海道那個路徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4989.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5010.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我這樣講就是說他講中國大陸沒有嘛對不對那你應該也不管中國大陸有沒有全世界應該都要比對不是這樣嗎當然比對全世界可是如果今天比到像剛剛非洲豬有24個基因型如果我們比到非洲的基因型跟我們不一樣那對我們這個病毒的意義一點都沒有病毒的序列就可以比較可以用來追蹤它的可能的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5011.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5039.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
對 然後所以如果他不提供最新的那有可能其實像你當然應該是這樣講我們先比對嘛全世界先比對嘛也不一定是中國大陸來的所以我覺得我們會送上那個我希望你們這個這個料敵從寬啦不要太狹隘這個病毒是有可能從全世界進來那我希望我們的防疫這個要做的這個嚴格一點才能保護我們的這個養豬農民好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5042.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5057.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好 謝謝協委 謝謝各位官員請回接下來請王育民委員來做宣達謝主席 我要先請衛福部部長請時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5062.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5080.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
因為今天是未還委員會部長來還是不能坐在旁邊我先問部長這個昨天你跟賴總統有出席一個記者會那這個活動裡面特別提到了這個健康台灣深耕計畫五年要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5083.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5093.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
489億那另外一個你提到了健康幣那本席就要就教你就是目前這一個健康台灣深耕計劃5年489億請問預算編在哪裡送進來立法院了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5098.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5108.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們是逐年提報預算那今年是已經有在預算審查已經完成的那明年的預算我們也編在115年度的預算書裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5111.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5134.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那你的健康币是编在这个深耕台湾计划里面吗不是这个是刚刚提到的那个深耕计划是给相关的这个医院还有诊所区域性的还有这个工会有些工会也得到这个计划所以他们是去做包含这个优化医事人员职业 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5135.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5164.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
條件包含這個智慧醫療的發展包含人才的培育等等這些所以那個都不是我們所以不包含健康幣嗎不包含行政機關要執行的對 本席就要就教你你所對外宣布的健康幣明年第一季就要實施但是我們看一下現在的預算不知道你是編在哪一個屬下面因為找不到那之前我們辦公室也有問就說還沒編還沒編明年第一季就要上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5165.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5185.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
跟委員報告是說我們這個健康幣我們主要主管機關做的是那個資訊的這個架構所以不用錢對 那以我們本來的科技計畫在執行我們本來就有一些行政的預算在這個你不用新增預算嗎你不是說很好康就是還可以抽腳踏車還有很多的獎品 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5185.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5208.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那个东西是要跟民间合作的啦所以你意思是健康币的推动所有的规划到执行你完全不用新增预算还是在我们本来的预算里头去执行那个资讯跟委员报告就是说简单的讲我们会第一个他的那个健康币的收集是用我们现在的健康存折 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5209.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5226.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
去扩充功能所以它等於我們每年都有健康準確的預算然後所有的獎項都是廠商捐你們都不用變預算然後我們是跟這個合作第一階段明年是第一階段而已那麼跟業者民間來合作譬如說他願意那你明年的第一季預計什麼時候實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5228.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5243.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
现在还在下阶当中没有那么快所以计划还不够完整还没有办法完成那你什么时候可以完整本席很想了解你整个健康币的年底之前我们整个的规划就会出来了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5243.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5266.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
年底12月嗎那麻煩你這一個整個健康幣的執行的相關的計劃就是要送給這個委員會我們要了解你怎麼執行還有包括你的預算邊緣你剛剛是說不會增加任何新增的計劃因為很快委員會可能就要排預算審查了那你如果沒有這一筆預算的話那你真的就要100%去募款了你就沒有這筆錢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5267.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5296.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我们会来努力用我们本来的预算里面在科技的部因为这个就是一些科技平台的建立用我们原本的一些预算来所以不新增预算但你必须交代是在原来哪些预算好不好因为这样可能会排挤到你原来要做的事情到时候再请委员支持我们相关的这些我希望你们交计划然后你的预算要来自于哪里这个都要清清楚楚我们才可以监督才知道你这个计划是用口号还是真的可以诉诸行动去实施 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5299.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5302.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
接下來我要問這一個防疫的問題今天來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5303.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5328.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
各部會的代表跟那個邊境防疫有關的房檢署還有這個關務署請上台我們可以看到蘇貞昌院長前院長他在非洲豬瘟開始之後呢他其實也發了一篇的臉書那我感覺他是憂心忡忡覺得是不是大家螺絲鬆了所以趕快提醒大家因為他好不容易他當時他最驕傲的政績就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5329.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5344.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
守住把非洲豬瘟擋在境外所以大家都印象深刻這個當時鄰近國家發生非洲豬瘟的時候他跑到他衝到這個陶基然後彪罵了十多分鐘這個我不曉得在座的這個官員有沒有人在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5345.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5367.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
他就是要求一定要嚴格把關那結果呢現在是邊境破防就是讓這一個非洲豬瘟進來了那現在當然就是要檢討就是怎麼樣可以去防堵那我給各位看一個網友他PO的這個PO文這個是2025年6月23號這個網友呢看起來是個炫耀文他說他從馬來西亞回台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5369.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5392.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那他直接一下飛機之後呢他跟這個寫請的保全表明說我不要豬瘟的檢查然後這個保全呢就直接讓他走旁邊出去了一點刁難都沒有他說他本來擔心會被阻擾所以呢還是先什麼手機開好這個防檢署的梭子結果完全沒有用到就順利的過關 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5394.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5421.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那他还教大家说下一次从朱温疫区回台湾大家不用当冤大头排队检查首体行李而他引用的是113年12月防检署的副署长徐荣斌受访的时候他说非洲朱温首检站针对高风险国家旅客首检皮包没有强制旅客可以拒绝 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5422.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5437.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那這個就是最大的漏洞啊你若從疫區回來的手檢包都不用這個認真檢查然後旅客說我不想被檢查然後就從旁邊出去然後你僱用的就是保全人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5439.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5464.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
你這樣子的一個執行的強度難怪現在非洲豬瘟從邊境就進來了嗎就是這樣子啊我要問各位是那這樣的一個狀況你現在還是這樣子嗎現在非洲豬瘟已經被發現了就跑到台灣來了你們的邊境還是這麼的鬆散嗎是不是你根本沒有法源沒有強制力 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5465.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5485.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
所以他的手檢包即使是從這個高風險疫區回來的只要旅客表明說我不想要被檢查你也沒有法源所以沒有強制力顧的還是只是保全而已是不是這樣報告委員我覺得這個的可能在現實狀況有些文字上或口語上會有扭曲但以現在來講他一定要經過手檢區 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5487.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5507.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以之前就是有鬆動嘛沒有百分之百嘛手剪區一定有分流分流就是說39個非洲疫區的國家他一定強制性馬來西亞是不是馬來西亞是非洲疫區的國家那他這一個人PO上去他就說他就是馬來西亞回來啊他就不用被手剪了因為他說我不要被手剪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5508.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5534.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
以現在目前來講我覺得這絕對不可能所以回溯這則新聞或者是這一個的報導是不是實在其實還有必要再追查看看有必要再追查你們自己去問你們的房檢署副署長之前這一位徐副署長其實一直都沒有鬆懈其實7年來都沒有鬆懈那這個是怎麼回事對我們這個是真真實實人家PO在網路上面講得非常的具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5535.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5551.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
網路常常有自由的言論那你們去查這是不是假消息因為這個已經不是一個人講了那這個就是之前你們根本沒有一個法源的情況底下你又沒有強制執行之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候我知道他非常的嚴格所以是百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5552.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5566.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
但你們後來就鬆掉了嘛鬆掉之後就變成是這樣的情況嘛就是尊重旅客自由意願他是高風險國家你還尊重他個人意願然後說不想檢查就走而且他引用的就是你們自己官員講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5568.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5583.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這個你們要好好檢討那你現在到底有沒有法源你是用什麼樣的一個強制性要求他百分之百到位行政命令嗎還是什麼你們之前的副署長是這樣講的喔沒有強制他是不是找不到法源還是怎麼回事我跟委員報告其實在機場裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5584.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5599.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我們的通關檢查是關稅所有的行李不管你是手提或者是托育行李全部都要海關經過但為了非洲豬瘟所以又增加了一個關卡就是在於海關檢查之前來一個手檢區那這個手檢區的目的是如果你經過這裡檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5601.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5621.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
有一億或者是豬肉的產品你馬上棄置那這個不會受罰但是如果你到了海關那裡檢查那百分之百一定受罰所以原來的用意上是讓所有的遊客是等於double check你自己再確認看看那如果你有違規的產品那就利用這個時候趕快把它丟棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5623.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5640.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
對 那至於說法院那因為我們的作為都是叫做行政作為那假設需要加強它的法規的一個力度我覺得這個部分我們都事實可以做研討但是在機場的檢驗事實上確實這個它有一定的法規好 那我現在就正式問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5641.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5658.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
在现在你也没有一个很明确的法源情况底下如果有游客是从高风险区域回来然后你要检查他的手检包他挑战你说你没有法源就是我可以拒绝我拒绝你检查我的手检包可以或不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5659.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5674.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
以目前來講我們都行政勸導希望你能夠通過假設他執意要過到了海關的檢查被檢出對不起就是20萬我們就開立20萬我知道但是他如果很僥倖海關也不會百分之百檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5676.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5695.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他就僥倖通關了所以你的意思就是說我們現在在前面的這一個手減包的部分是真的沒有法源也沒有辦法百分之百強制嗎報告委員我們現在目前的運作是假設這一個遊客他拒絕那可能我們就通知末端的海關對這個人要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5696.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5717.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我知道 所以你現在告訴我是說他是真的沒有法源你們這個副署長也沒有講錯是行政 我們現在都是行政措施所以沒有辦法到非常強制性的那我現在就問你怎麼樣可以做到非常強制性的高風險的民眾回來這個手檢包要百分之百接受檢驗要怎麼樣可以做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5717.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5732.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
如果我們修法相對我們要有正式的人力投入到裡面去所以你們做不到我們現在完全沒有對 沒有多餘的人力去做那蘇貞昌時代你們是怎麼做到的就是由這個就是由這個守檢區是那你們那時候會讓遊客是可以說我拒絕嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5735.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5752.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
如果遇到拒絕的 你們當時是怎麼執行的我剛剛跟委員報告絕多數的遊客都會配合著遇到這種少數要挑戰你公權力的我們就當下都會通知海關的部分針對這個遊客特別關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5753.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5773.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
到海關的時候就要打開這個海關我問一下海關有沒有做到我們財政部的這個關務署這個雙重把關如果他前面他執意現在沒有法源可以要求他強制就是去掃他的手提包到了你的海關他通知你海關就可以百分之百可以攔下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5773.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5786.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
是報告委員就是剛才這邊講的就是手提行李的部分在房檢署這邊是有房檢署這邊去做手檢那有關拖運行李的部分在他上這個行李轉盤之前絕對百分之百海關這邊S光檢驗然後如果他有異常的話我們會助檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5794.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5823.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那住检旅客领了行李要通过我们的检查台之前我们就会再过一次S光复检然后开箱查验那刚才房检署这边提到说如果有拒绝手检的他们假如有通知假如有通知海关的话海关绝对会去加强然后开箱查验那之前你们有收到几件是房检署通知你们他手检拒检然后你们来检查他的手检的有几件 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5824.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5845.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個部分可能我現在沒有資料我們之後再提供看看我們的機場這邊有沒有收到過這個房間署那房間署呢你們通報了幾件另外我在跟你們房間署通報幾件要求海關要不是這個應該不是在我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5847.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5867.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個目標的數據 因為是我們這是當即立即有這樣的狀況就做處理那另外我跟委員報告就是說你們沒有登錄也不知道幾件還是從來根本就沒有通報過 沒有連線過這個是因為有加強那就通過 那還有一個我們還有一個把關的關卡是在於我們的這個檢疫權 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5869.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5884.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
檢疫權我知道檢疫權都是在跟海關同一個層級所以現在現在防檢署告訴大家就是說的確你們的這個首檢站他沒有公權力可以要求百分之百這個旅客你一定要經過這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5886.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5908.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
你們的手檢站把包包打開沒有百分之百的強制按照你的說法就是這樣所以你是靠後面的檢疫權或者是你可能未來你再去通知海關要求他打開到目前為止你的確就是沒有一個法源依據要求他必須把皮包打開對不對現在聽起來就是這樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5909.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5926.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那如果這樣子的話他就是一個漏洞嘛那我要求防檢局你們要盡快把這個漏洞補起來嘛不是說過去是靠蘇貞昌院長因為他很嚴厲他很兇然後要求你們做到然後就趕快去做但是做了這件事情坦白講是沒有法源依據的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5927.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5943.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
你們根本不知道他依據什麼來源所以你遇到一個挑戰你公權力的人呢你就沒轍了你真的沒轍委員我還是希望真的這個不能否定因為幾乎所有的都會經過這個首檢區也都會配合做檢討我知道我們現在在檢討漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5944.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5966.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以當你遇到這一種要挑戰你公權力他硬不給你手檢的時候坦白講你現在就是沒轍嘛你當時那個防檢署的副署長講的是沒有錯的嘛依法論法他就是找不到一個強而有力的法源說你就是要給我經過那這個你們趕快去補漏洞啊趕快看要修哪一個法令啊按照你的這個防疫的哪一個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5967.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5985.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
就是說因為他是從高風險地區來的你就必須強制的百分之百手減嘛你不能是靠後面最後海關啊海關號驗的也很多啊那你這個已經是高風險就應該是高強度的查驗啊你不允許讓人家去挑戰你的公權力嘛好不好好那你這個多久可以演繹出來因為這是盡快補破網不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5990.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6016.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
為什麼用保全就是在機場的其他的檢驗CIQS都有正式人力那沒有給我們正式人力在這個首檢區執行所以支持我們經費用保全的方式來執行這件事情那假設真的要落實納入到我們CIQS的整個的流程裡面那絕對是要正式的人力跟資金投入在這個裡面但以我目前來講是 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6018.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6042.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
是確實是要以有限有的編制上來處理這件事情我要你們把漏洞補起來無論是你要立法百分之百的補這個漏洞由房檢局來做或者是要求變成財政部的海關你必須做成是第二道防線你們一定要百分之百SOP的通報就你要挑戰我公權 我從海關擋你那你這個整個要建置起來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6042.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6063.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
要不然你這個我看得很明顯它就是一個漏洞好不好這個漏洞一定要補起來才不會讓非洲豬人下一次繼續從這邊進來好不好要嚴格的執行 謝謝好 謝謝我又宣告一下我們到廖偉祥召委宣導結束之後休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6071.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6098.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好 接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢好 謝謝主席我還是要請杜署長還有那個國務署的副署長這個手剪包的查譯的地方剛剛你們這種答詢我會替你們捏把冷汗也會讓國人覺得你到底是在說什麼而且那個副署長有沒有講這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6099.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6116.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
基本上現在電話查就馬上知道了 除了他退休了他退休在台灣你接到電話這個都可以馬上問的啊即便這一關是這個樣子這一關是這個樣子他可以拒絕 但是他真的走得出去嗎他走得出去嗎台灣的邊境查驗 路關的查驗有這麼鬆嗎也因為沒有反而依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6128.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6132.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
請你打開包包 你可以拒絕之後欸 他就沒事了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6134.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6163.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有這件事嗎就對了 我覺得你回答得很軟的這樣我們就沒法完 我們的人就沒救我們就撥傳 怎樣就怎樣你硬要給我感覺沒有 你現場你問我問在座的報案官員 你剛剛聽到都市長我是知道你很累啦已經這幾天為了非洲豬的事情但是這種答詢的回應方式然後我也特別提供這樣的訊息給你還有人既然敢這件事情潑在臉書就是可以拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6164.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6180.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
你賴我如何怎麼可以這樣怎麼可以公然這樣挑戰然後現在委員來追尋你的時候你們的回應好像對啊就是這樣啊雖然我們有一個最好的關卡就是公務署對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6184.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6212.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
但是對你防檢署來講防疫就是你們第一線啊防疫就是你已經站到海關的這個這個浪頭的時候你就是要有辦法處理啊你沒辦法處理我就是幫幫 不能再讓你再走到下個階段啊我就馬上通知公務所人到現場通知海關人到現場來啊我沒有 我沒有法令原理依據可以要求你開公務所的人能不能叫你開嘛我們可以馬上做啊你下一步就走不下去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6214.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6230.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
你們怎麼沒有這個power可以講這種話今天是委員已經把人家臉書po的已經挑戰你們的公共權利的情況之下在國會殿堂在垂詢你的時候你怎麼可以回應到這麼樣的太軟了 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6237.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6248.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這不對啦 這個所謂對的人來的時候實在是完全不一樣的處理的一種態度跟行動我坐在這裡 我覺得連部長也在緊張好像在教導國人 今天如果這樣的情況好像教導國人說對啊 就是可以拒絕啊你哪有 你引起什麼法律 你哪裡有強制力 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6267.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6293.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
國人在出境機場有這麼輕鬆嗎昨天在內政委員會還有我的委員同仁好像對內政部的初選首長講說我們的邊境查驗我們的機場管理的太嚴了啦有沒有 你可以馬上問馬上查內政委員會我記得就是有這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6300.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6327.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
對 然後台灣機場檢查太嚴格 程序太長但是今天在這個委員會感覺好像某類 不是這個樣子好像很輕鬆怎麼會有不同委員會 然後委員的槌尋差異對一個機場的把關差異這麼大那就是我們為政者回應的態度跟我們實際上的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6335.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6358.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
農業部資料 114年對新的簡歷統計國外民眾攜帶肉製品 陽性率中國是13.1% 越南是8.8% 泰國4.2%這三國以陽性的比例最高的這三個國家其中中國的肉品對台灣簡直是叫做生化攻擊了這一場夾帶目前海關邊境有完整的攔截措施存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6360.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6384.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
目的指向就是大量這次的 我特別排這一個專案就是說大量的通過電商平台 通過網路直接在國外訂購肉製品直接輸台這個相關的報導也特別提到中華郵政處長中華郵政處長 請出席一下承接大量拼多多淘寶貨物台中郵取進口約50個貨櫃6萬多件高雄郵取進口約60個貨櫃9萬多件除了這兩個還有其他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6392.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6407.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
只有這兩個郵局還有其他 你可以補充資料嗎你的領執要翻好報告主席 目前只有從台中港跟高雄港進來就這兩個港嘛 對不對這兩個港 這樣數據正確嘛8月7日到現在 50個多貨櫃是在台中然後60個貨櫃是在高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6417.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6438.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
兩個貨櫃加起來就十幾萬件 沒有錯吧是好 所以有郵政的局主管在透露 說近三個月來日夜加班 壓力非常重大然後大量的中國的貨櫃 相關有肉類的香腸還有豬肉月餅 半島會怕優先成為非洲 這個豬防疫的破口有沒有這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6440.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6459.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
報告委員那基本上這個從海運海運快遞進口的這些油包是以貨關進來是經過海運快遞通關那經過關路署以及防檢局的檢疫以後呢在通關一簽關以後才交給中華郵政來做這個遞送 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6461.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6470.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
是 所以意思是說我們中緯郵政基本上只要經過關路署 經過這個防疫署的這個檢疫完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6472.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6498.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
S光機照過之後反正就是沒有所謂的違禁品中華郵政反正就只有就是寄送而已嘛接跟送而已嘛對不對是不是這樣所以相關的檢驗的把關就是在我們公務署跟房間署嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛跟你中華郵政沒有關係嘛所以你現在跟我講說這個郵政主管透露這三個月來日夜加班所以來自中國大量貨櫃有肉類香腸含豬肉月餅搬到會怕是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6500.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6518.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
你要回應我是這個是假的中緒郵政沒有這個主管這主管是虛設的這主管是自己跑出來的這主管是虛擬的這個同仁的反應那基本上我們檢疫的部分的確是經過X光 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6519.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6546.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
以及這個防檢署那當然我們現在因為這個配合這個海運快遞進來我們的同仁全力把這個整個貨件經過清關以後交運給中華郵政做這個避送所以海運的內容的真實性我們我在這邊沒有辦法去做回應跟查證那我先請處長看下一個照片好不好你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6553.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6574.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個滿這個就是選TW收貨地址下單可享滿49免運這TW是指什麼意思台幣是台幣嘛是台幣那滿那個一個好像那個電線桿下面有兩條幹那個是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6582.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6608.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個我不清楚你不清楚嗎你就是不清楚你今天打我才問很多事情不太清楚滿49免運就是滿人民幣那個是講幣值的代號就是人民幣選TWTW不是指台幣是選台灣了收屋地址下單可享免人民幣49滿49人民幣免運了 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6611.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6637.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這是針對台灣的消費者的一個廣告嘛是處長這樣清楚吧是清楚這樣清楚你看他賣什麼東西你可以簡單從左邊講一項從右邊講一項嗎右邊是這個水果跟水果類左邊是肉類製品是那我們先講右邊水果類這些可以銷入台灣嗎嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6643.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6670.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
X光機照到這些有直接處理掉沒有辦法透過這個進口的這是沒辦法經過進口嘛對不對那你中委郵政如果有接受這樣的貨品然後直接寄到這個收件人那中委郵政要負起什麼責任因為他是整個是在包裝經過這個驗官 清官以後我們沒有辦法對內容物做查證 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6670.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6697.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以你們不曉得你們在送什麼東西嘛對不對應該是這麼講嘛所以右邊就這樣了嘛那左邊也是這樣嘛是不是這樣這個是貨運承攬業他進來以後呢必須這個清楚標示產地然後經過這個海關時間的關係啦我們沒有辦法再講下去我只是要跟你提醒啦齁這個賴處長你先到旁邊一下好不好謝謝不好意思齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6699.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6719.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以你現在要否認我是說你們的郵政主管有在擔心搬運搬貨搬到怕搬到怕有非洲防疫的破口是假訊息就對了你要回答我是這樣嘛 是不是你記住喔 這現場都是有錄影錄音的喔要不要再肯定答問一下 不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6722.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6749.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個整個辦運的這個工作 可不可能嘛 你就簡單答覆我一句話就好嘛但是內部的這整個檢疫內 我們的確是沒有參與這些檢疫我在委員會 我很少在委員官員但是我是希望官員在答覆過程裡面還是要秉於良心 秉於專業 秉於真的實際上可能的狀況要把事情講清楚 對不對 好那你現在講是沒有嘛 不可能發生啊所以這個郵政主管是假的啦 這是假訊息這是虛擬的 是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6751.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6764.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我只是針對這個檢疫的工作他內容描述的檢疫的工作不是你在做啊你不需要打呼我檢疫的工作啊你中緯郵政是收跟送嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛檢疫工作後面那兩位嘛你請到旁邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6769.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6792.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我最後一個啦來請教這個杜署長還有我們副署長昨天講是在28日已經是正式回應說要求經濟部 數碼部還有研究如果讓這個淘寶還有拼多多這個限期落地如果限期不落地不納入管制的話將要求電商這個平台下架現在中國的雙11促銷活動即將來臨然後去年的時候淘寶為了搶這個雙11的商機 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6794.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6815.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
就宣布於7-11門市和新竹物流合作擴大全台免運服務範圍只要下單選7-11門市取貨或通過宅配滿人民幣99元享免運到台然後包裹更可以直接全台368鄉鎮市區寄送偏鄉地區也能輕鬆取貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6824.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6852.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個是去年的事情你再回到上一頁這個是拼多多的只要選TW選台灣所有地址下單可享滿49的等於是人民幣可以免運滿200塊的台幣就可以免運了這個是什麼意思然後可以賣這些東西可以賣 左邊是肉類 右邊就是水果 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6854.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6882.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
署長怎麼看待這個事情這個事情要怎麼應應目前來講有很多是他的廣告那是在境外廣告那真正的要做到購買然後寄送的時候其實還是有在大的廠商是有一些的作為有些是你真的訂貨的時候你也進不來那有的是你刷卡的時候用台灣的這個信用卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6883.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6908.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
你也他也不會成交所以他是有後面是有一些的管制措施的所以這些商家他們在做無效廣告無聊廣告無益廣告你要不要等一下回桌的時候還是休息十分鐘馬上你打拼多多就是每天都有頻率之高誰的手機都可以看到而且這是專為台灣設計的滿200台幣滿49的人民幣你就免預 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6913.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6929.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
然後劈啪啪每天都有每天都有然後這些這些都是禁止進來台灣的不要講肉類喔連水果都是喔一直在廣告一直在廣告那院長講這樣什麼時候委員我再補充一下就是拼多多是一個新的一個媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6930.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6949.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那他用APP的方式在做他的行銷那這個部分在秘書長這邊召集的跨部會會議的時候也要求速發布要提出一個具體針對這些電商平台有些的不法的違法的或者是管理不良的這個部分要做一個處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6952.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6964.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我知道那天院會的質詢 院長做的才是啦這邊都有很清楚嘛來不及啦 太晚了啦 反應不夠快啦雙11已經快到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6965.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6985.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我希望我們可以加快這些基本上他就是公然違反我們台灣的相關的法令嘛對不對我們知道他在網路他在臉書他在平台一直持續不斷不斷的不斷的在播送在連結在擴大他的數據台灣的政府要有積極因應的相關的作為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6988.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7015.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
剛剛你講的進行屏蔽嘛對不對只有進行屏蔽就夠了嗎還有可以做到什麼程度拒絕怎麼拒絕拒絕就是你從台灣下單在那邊如果有自主管理跟我們電商平台合作是拒絕下單但拼多多是一個新的一個電商平台那所以說現在可能要整個的資訊的一個屏蔽所以這個部分找那個速發部在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7018.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7046.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
相關的一個策略我覺得這做屏蔽 還有你講的拒絕真的是不夠力你們要不要最快的速度是因為時間關係好不好請你 請農業部嘛還有經濟部 還有這個 樹花部衛福部應該也要一起來啦真的 這已經離譜了這不是這幾天的事情這是一大陣子的嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7047.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7074.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
是不是請市部長也可以來召集看來如何來應用為了國人的健康為了我們台灣的養豬產業為了我們的豬籠為了所有的一系列這樣生態的這樣的一個台灣的很多的一個必須要怎麼講我看到這些數據每天在這樣跑在這樣跑在這樣跑那其實我真的看得很汗顏我也覺得很擔憂台灣未來的處境真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7075.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7099.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
就像我剛剛開場白的一直帶進來一直帶進來一直有這樣被我們阻絕在外的這些疑似還是這些弱品基本上就好像在做生化攻擊的道理一樣所以全員動起來一個星期內好不好提出相關的因應作為不能只有屏蔽不能只有拒絕而已的這些措施好不好 謝謝好 我們謝謝劉建國委員的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7103.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7124.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席 謝謝趙偉那請 先請我們衛福部長 石部長那請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7128.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7152.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
廖委員長部長好 我想要延續一下最近大家看到我們都很擔心這個兒科啊 急重症啊或是一些這個相關的急重男寒科別的醫師人員流失很嚴重所以想要請問一下部長像兒科 急重症及部分科別的醫師或醫事人員流失問題嚴重那為了要解決這個出走的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7153.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7181.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
想要請問一下有關醫院醫師加班免稅的部分這個今年底有沒有機會達成那可以讓這個醫院醫師明年在報稅的時候就可以試用那同樣的有關於健保給付的部分請問部長是不是能夠加快以及加大力道檢討醫療服務的給付的部分那我也想要請問這兩個部分目前的已有規劃期程跟方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7182.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7208.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
跟委員報第一個是有關於我們醫師加班因為醫師的工時確實是比較長那麼特別是有一些病人在假日或夜間都需要服務那根據所得稅法那麼一般而言的加班費是可以免稅那所以我們現在在為醫師爭取那麼特別是希望修訂我們的這個健保的特約管理辦法裡面那麼讓他明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7209.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7237.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那麼關於按照這個所得稅法規定的加班的這個免稅的這個標準就是上限標準那另外呢 如何的這個計算我們已經幾次跟這個相關的這個主管機關包含公立醫院的主管機關所以博長 換言之你是很支持這個方向啦是是是 謝謝 謝謝委員關心對 那我只是想問說那這個期程的部分然後另外一個就是有關於剛剛所謂的這個檢討醫療服務給付的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7238.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7264.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那麼加班稅免稅我們是希望在年底前把它完成適用於明年報稅的時候適用明年報稅太好了對對對這個我們來努力那至於在這個急重症的給付的部分我們今年在健保的總額裡面已經先調整了那麼主要是以加護病房跟急診這邊事先優先調整那麼另外明年的部分我們已經在兒科的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7264.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7283.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那麼也匡列了大概0到6歲的兒童的預算匡列249億那我們會優先調整這個兒童的住院的給付都會把它拉高對部長我相信你很專業在這個部分畢竟你一路以來這個部分是你專業領域但是我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7285.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7304.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
雖然這段時間以來你很努力的去改善可是看起來並沒有阻止也沒有真的很明顯的成效所以我想要說的事情是這個部分是不是可以加大和加快這個力道不然我們都很擔心連醫療中心這個相關的重要的科別都崩潰是 會的會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7305.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7327.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為我們這兩年的 今年的預算也增加明年的話又是這個以5.5的成長所以我們會連著持續的一直去調整關於在急重症的支付那同時也會搭配醫院評鑑制度的改革來強化這個人才的羅致那另外還有健康台灣深耕計畫那麼也謝謝委員的支持 今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7328.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7343.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
已經有近60億那明年會擴大到100億的預算我們也編載預算書那也都是在改善醫護人員的這個工作條件是 那部長再麻煩您把目前有的這個相關的報告以及進度交給本席辦公室一份好嗎好 沒問題 謝謝那再來我要請這個關務署長處長你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7357.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7374.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
署長好基本上這整件事件從流程來看今天排這個其實包含農業部長也說過去本土沒有案例所以一定是從境外來那外界關注這個境外的包裹是不是變成防疫的破口也是一個問題所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7376.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7399.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
今天要特別的討論說這所謂的邊境破口到底在哪裡那麼根據新聞報導 關務署也表示說海關針對於民眾以海運快遞空運快遞或者是郵包進口的貨品均全面的X光移檢那也從10月24號開始說提高人工開箱的查驗比率那因此想要問署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7400.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7419.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有關於這個關務署強調進口郵包進口快遞100%的X框查驗聽起來是個有效的方式但是為什麼還有媒體會報導說有第一線的物流人士表示肉製品大量以包裹或夾櫃的方式流入這是空穴來風呢還是是說這個部分真的有一些漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7421.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7449.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
跟委員報告就如同剛委員所提的我們不管是旅客行李或者是這個郵包或者是快遞貨物那我們是百分之百X光檢查那如果有影像有異常的話就會人工開箱查驗那所以我們其實一直都是做這樣子一個強化那現在的話我們更是會提高我們的人工的一個查驗比 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7450.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7475.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
是 因為署長我們大概推估一下疫情爆發後10月24號到26號這三天其實各官的人工開箱查驗件數大概是4000件 超過4000件那查獲違規豬肉製品大概4件 共6.7公斤那用這個比例來算大概是千分之一所以大概人工去檢查後可能比純木式的X光還要來精準許多 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7476.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7497.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以我們就保守估計如果用X光的這個疏漏率假設掃過去沒有辦法馬上找到有問題的話這個比率假設是人工的一半好了就是用0.5的話那麼如果照2024年的台灣進口包裹總數量是5847萬件來算可能也有8萬件的沒有查到的漏網之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7498.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7510.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以因為我當然可以理解說不可能每一個包裹都用人工檢查啦這是不可能的事情但是這樣子的數量我想要請問有沒有去檢討或是什麼更有效的方式來防堵這個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7511.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7531.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
報告委員就是說當然我們今天因為海關的人力的問題所以我們一定會強化我們運用相關的這個高科技包括剛才提到的S光還有另外就是我們跟房檢署這邊房檢署他有這個檢疫犬那也會請這個房檢署的檢疫犬隊可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7531.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7560.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
加強這個一個繡紋那另外就是說我們增加我們的一個開箱的比率還有就是也會提高我們低線官員他在辨識這個X光影像的一個專業的知能好我想要提出來就是用這個數據來看這可能是有漏網之語是非常的多你們可能要去想辦法精進相關的相關的流程上有沒有辦法更嚴格在既有的資源之下還有或是科技的應用之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7561.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7582.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那另外呢 這個你們也有備詢的時候表示油包 茶貨 肉製品大概是1000件那淡井開發9件 這比例非常的低 請問原因是什麼那也想要請問 好 您先說原因是什麼先跟委員報告 就是有關我們油包 海關 茶貨那我們是移給防檢署這邊來做採訪所以有關採訪的部分是防檢署這邊的一個權管 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7589.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7593.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好 那請相關的房間署來回答報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7599.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7622.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我們大概都移送採訪因為在這個過程之中很多數是因為冒名或者是不知情那所以說沒有辦法追溯所以這也是一個很大的原因嘛一前件有開罰九件其實是非常的低千分之九那主要原因就是你說可能冒名或者是雙方不知道是誰或是第一次非故意嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7622.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7647.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以現在回頭來看首次非故意免罰是不是就可能變成是一個有心人可以鑽的漏洞是嘛我們也在檢討你也說是嘛對不對我們現在也在檢討但這回回到一個問題就是假設A跟B那A如果對B有意見故意陷害我記得一百件所以這個東西是一個要檢討的東西所以我也可以理解因為如果有人 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7647.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7658.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
刻意被陷害的話所以這個部分是想要問說那可不可以請電商平台也負起相關的責任比如說主動勸阻啦或是針對違規的商家進行處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7660 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7680.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有 目前我們的電商平台所以您支持這個方向 對我說明一下就是說這個這幾年我們一直在努力跟電商平台就是它要有一些的自主的管理的一個機制上然後再加上配合我們做一些的相關的一個宣導所以其實從我們開發的比例我講的是電商是電商的這個部分那它已經降低了這個財閥數了 已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7683.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7700.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
有那個效果出來嗎你說因為跟他們溝通完之後你們這個數量是沒有 採取種種的措施對 這數量是有下降可是可能顯然還不夠嘛1000件裡面只有9件開罰不是 這兩件事情對 我的意思是說這個部分因為你剛剛說你擔心他被陷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7701.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7719.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
然後或者是你這個制度上你擔心AB互相不認識那這個源頭是不是有可能跟電商平台要負起相關的責任有關所以我們剛剛講的是這個你說因為你跟他們溝通完有下降有下降那這個部分是不是還可以有空間去更精進的作為對 更精進的作為那另外整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7722.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7745.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
現在目前已經有更改到實名制 關務署已經更改到實名制了所以他要雙證件這樣就避免了很多假冒的一個行為所以現在這段的時間 事實上這個違規的行為也降低了比率也降低了 比率降低多少就是成效如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7751.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7763.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好沒關係顯然你們現在沒有明確的數字啊查完之後給本席辦公室好不好好那我想要因為時間有限我繼續問一下也根據審計部的資料我可能這個部分要請衛福部長還有我們管務署長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7767.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7783.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
根據審計部的資料其實也有許多比如說外國地區其他地區的比如大陸地區其他國家食品用個人的這個自用名義輸入雖然沒有申請邊境查驗但卻實際可能作為販售的用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7784.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7801.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
像2023年有超過70萬人用這個方式進口食品而且重複進口的紀錄也高達數百次甚至每日的進口量也遠超過每日個人的合理攝取量所以有些時候也很難解釋說是自用 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7802.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7821.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
比如說113年度申請這個免查驗輸入食品的相次前10名每人進口的這個報單數介於58分到3002分也逐漸這樣子是不是沒有有效的邊境控制的機制比如說若這一類的食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7822.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7840.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
如果流入市面販售再要透過地方去後端市場去稽查基本上是事倍功半也很難回溯進貨的來源也可能造成民眾很多無謂的困擾所以目前請問部長對於這個個人民意輸入制度的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7841.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7862.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
食藥署或是署長有沒有辦法沿你要增設或者是你們有沒有什麼相關的經濟措施比如說增設進口頻率上限個人總量管制的制度或者是說有相關跟關務署跟食藥署建構一個類似通報系統比如說高頻輸入者他可能是一個重點稽查的名單請問這部分有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7863.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7885.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
跟委員報告確實現在呢個人輸入自用的部分是有6公斤以下1000美元以下這個是免這個食品這個申請輸入的規定但是他還是要堅守在邊關需要有這個檢查還是不能夠有這個假查這個違規的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7887.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7908.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
物品所以這個還是在邊境還是需要查驗的至於剛剛提到確實如果說我們能夠進行勾擊對一些高頻率因為為了這樣去這個限縮所有的國人他的自用的當然所以我說你可能要用勾擊的方式用勾擊的方式更精準的去查驗對這個我們來研究看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7912.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7934.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
謝謝委員的詮詢這部分我們在之前非洲豬瘟之前我們就發現這樣子極度異常的其實這樣子的規定是在108年4月份我們公告隔年109年7月我們就覺得有異狀所以我們你把上面的修正的每日以及總額一天的1000美金等的修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7935.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7953.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
經過爭取意見之後對 我們那時候的規定是希望能修改徵求有197個意見就一個意見贊成所有都反對所以在當時之前的研議之下就稍微延緩我想這一次我們是一個很好的契機重新去檢討跟勾擊那個嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7954.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7977.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
不合常理之下的一個個人輸入實際上就是後市場端我們稽查有很多的臨時在銷售裡面都是以個人名義進來實際上銷售之時我想也有一些關稅的問題也有一些不符合個人使用的一些我們當初的美意所在我們會積極的修正 以上好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7978.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7991.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那再去這個再麻煩精進研議那也給北市辦公室一個你們最後的結論好因為這是兩個不同的方向好那這個在最後一條我要請請這個請回座請經濟部請經濟部好 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8003.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8014.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我想要請問一下因為根據這個商業刊物的統計過去10年台灣的小型包裹進口量從1582萬件成長到5847萬件增幅高達270%那同期的這個進口的包裹金額也從221億增長到656億累積增幅也將近快200% |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8029.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8051.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那換句話說呢其實台灣民眾向海外購買產品可能已經成為一個不可逆的趨勢所以就我所知目前各大平台尤其是大陸的各大平台還沒有在台灣落地所以因此這一次的這個非洲豬瘟進口製品問題卓院長表示希望限期讓這些平台在台灣落地以便行政管理跟救責對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8054.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8068.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
是的 卓院長在前天在立法院會有這樣表示那跟委員補充那個電商平台的主管是數位部是不是請 經濟部跟速發部一起來好了因為剛剛在跟您講一些數據 速發部也一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8084.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8105.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以基本上卓源廠的立場是說希望這些平台盡快落地可是其實我製作的一些時間表包含2008年這個淘寶用新加坡公司名義在台設立分公司那2015年被投審會要求撤資這個2018年淘寶在台設立港資跟英資的子公司分別營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8106.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8120.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那這個總站的廣告跟台灣站的電商平台業務那2020年呢淘寶台灣也被經濟部稱這個落地台灣以為兩岸條例這就是為什麼剛剛要請經濟部來那限期半年內撤資否則連續重罰廢止許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8122.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8148.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那淘寶台灣站只好宣布立刻關閉那2024年底呢港商淘寶台灣分公司投放雙11的優惠廣告那經濟部也稱說違反營業登記項目違法經營電商業務重罰120萬限半年內撤資否則繼續重罰那就在前幾天這個卓院長表示限期讓他們來落地設立公司負責否則要強制下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8148.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8176.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那我要說的事情這個究竟他們要不要落地願不願意落地這是他們不願意還是我們在法規上或者在輔導上有問題那現在等到發生事情了才要特別說要找他來負責要叫他趕快落地這樣感覺是很相互矛盾會讓人家覺得說政策好像是像這個初一十五不一樣想要請問具體要怎麼幫助他們相關的落地計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8179.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8194.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
謝謝委員的推詢其實關於這部分來講的話我想說落地的部分其實當然基本上還是要配合這個因為任何的不管是大陸或者是世界各國要落地的話當然就要配合我們投審會的相關機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8195.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8215.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
當然對我們的一些國內電商的一些衝擊我們都會一起來評估所以我想問說如果沒有順利落地的話那口中院長口中強制下架是什麼樣的措施我大概講一下這其實在重點落不落地其實重點在於這個管理因為今天這個非洲豬瘟的事情真的要去做處理來做一個管理所以我們有想到幾個管理的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8217.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8240.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
例如說淘寶這部分來講的話我們不管是境內境外我們會積極跟淘寶聯繫像現在目前你看那個淘寶其實有做一些措施你看它的那個封面裡面已經有配合那個農業部的那個這是一部分嘛對那你們是不是還有可能用什麼其他技術手段譬如說禁止訪問沒有這個許可的電商平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8242.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8269.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
有幾個啦第一個就是標示嘛那淘寶的部分來講的話他會特別如果是從台灣來的這些IP有沒有然後你要IP去封他台灣來了IP就不會去看看到那個肉品因為對他來講境外來講這些肉品可能可以賣到其他國家但是我們國家對於非洲基金這個非常關心所以他們現在目前有這個措施就是說但除非你是跳到別的外面去對那他不就透過VPN就一樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8271.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8296.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
但是這部分跳過去回來就是還是就是今天這是一連串的問題但是我盡量可以做的就是這部分那另外我們也思考另外一個可以管理的方式就是我們有看到那個廣告的部分其實還是很重要我們怎麼去透過所以我們接下來會找這些平台因為他們很多都會在Meta上面去PO一些廣告我們接下來會去找他們來去如何去讓這一類的廣告能夠盡量減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8298.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8318.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以基本上同樣邏輯啦不只是大陸的這個拼多多京東抖音購物可能還有韓國的庫蓬還有日本的美錄可力然後美國亞馬遜沃爾瑪東南亞的Lazada這些通通都是國外的平台到目前也都沒有落地喔所以是用同樣的就是方式去跟他們談對嗎同樣的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8320.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8347.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
跟委員報告一下其實庫蓬這部分他已經落地所以庫蓬這邊來講的話我們有落地像這麼大的一個韓國的電商其實我們也會積極的查核我剛還有講到好幾個不同的好幾個的話我們如果有如果現在短期間還沒有落地的話我們盡量就會跟他們去做溝通那如果有一些狀況那Amazon倒是比較好一點因為Amazon他要上架的時候他必須要有品牌我們也有跟他 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8348.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8375.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
在做因為他有全球開店平台的一些活動那我們跟他講那他其實要上架不是隨隨便便就可以上架的對這部分的尺度喔還有相關的技術規範喔這個可能要拿捏而且要盡速的跟他們溝通好謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝趙偉好謝謝廖趙偉那委員會重新公告齁我們剛剛宣布是十點半啊現在呃這個待林書文委員吹醒完之後我們再休息十分鐘齁抱歉來請林書文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8379.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8383.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
謝謝主席 是不是再請我們部長來 請施部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8389.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8412.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
林委員好部長我再接續剛才廖委員的這個質詢就省紀部在今年的非洲豬瘟事件發生以前7月29號就發布了這個總決算的審核報告那這裡面指出這個食藥署大家都知道邊境抱怨的批次從76萬餘批比這個當初109年69萬餘批成長了將近一成 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8418.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8424.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
在這種狀況裡面他們覺得說中國大陸的貨品除了經濟部公告准許輸入和專案核准以外不得輸入的狀況但是坊間非常多的中國大陸產製的麻辣花生螺絲粉等非屬核准輸入產品在國內流通販售的情勢衍生了食安的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8442.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8453.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個是審計部的這一個調查報告裡面寫的審核報告裡面寫的然後呢你們他再查了一下就說你們這個去年112年還有113年兩年之間喔他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8458.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8462.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
看了一下地方政府的稽查業者2萬餘次查獲的違規只有71案其中都是在夜市商行實體通路查獲網路平台只有一案在這種狀況裡面審計部認為說對國內的衛生安全有很大的疑慮然後講到你們自己剛剛講的108年你們自己開放了自己去開放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8487.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8513.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個1000美金以下重量6公斤以下這個免申請這個查驗這個是你們自己開放的在這種狀況裡面他就剛才廖委員質詢也有講到所以這個審計部這一年過去113年有70幾萬個人申請我免查驗然後最離譜的是第一名的人那一個人一年申請了3002次 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8515.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8539.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
然後他每天一年365天一共有294天294天天天都申報這個進口免查驗的這一些化整為零的輸入然後大家當初都是知道說這同意自用的話免查驗可是天天輸入一年輸入294天一共輸入了3002批次化整為零 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8545.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8571.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
違規的拿去哪裡使用了還自用了耶而你們自己都知道109年你就發現這有問題了可是你們就是沒有辦法改而且不願意改你就說大家都反對就不改了那今年呢我們就看到深五環的第一環邊境主角就在這裡大家認為說這裡破口跟著貨櫃進來違規拿去平台賣有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8572.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8595.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
當然部長你講的更好笑這些都免查驗了你說還在查驗他哪裡查驗跟委員說明這確實是有一些國人自用的需求沒有啦我問你是這些都用免查驗的你剛才還可以回答委員說他們還是有查驗不是查驗啦應該是這樣子講他在邊境他還是郵包還是要驗還是會被抽驗啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8595.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8620.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
抽驗嘛 所以偶爾抽一下但是我現在再問你喔 嚴肅的問你喔申請免查驗的1000美金以下的還有這個6公斤以下的會抽驗嗎 海關有抽驗嗎有抽驗嗎 你剛才講你剛才回答委員說還是有查驗現在我問你 你說會抽驗到底有沒有真的有抽驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8621.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8628.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
沒有嘛沒有嘛 完全沒有把關長驅直入可是剛才第一名那個其實我們在9月10號我現在告訴你就是說就是沒有我們要講這個個案啦 我在講因為你們開放的108年這個門就是你開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8643.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8660.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
而開了以後完全連抽菸都沒有長驅直入而且大家化整為零而且以同意自用為名就違規的拿去販賣其實商業販售你開放了但你要有管理的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8661.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8680.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
你開放了 那你的管理配套在哪裡你的後市場查驗有嗎難怪大家都問我 大家都問立委夜市大家都看得到更不要講網路平台所以更不要講阻絕於邊境這都是你們開放的 沒錯 你們開放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8682.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8697.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
在這種狀況 審計部的報告我們可以得知到幾個重點第一個 你們事實上開放以後流入了台灣的市面然後事實上地方政府跟你們去做的稽查強度則為不足道實體通路兩年查獲71件 網路查獲1件第二個 我們都看到個人名義自用 其實是騙人的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8711.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8741.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
第三你們的稽查事實上是沒有在講網路販售的這個平台了網路販售除非從中國郵寄但是也有從台灣出貨的簡體字的一大堆那網路販售他怎麼到台灣的賣家然後可以直接賣出去他販賣地點可能從雲林寄出來的可能從高雄寄出來的他就是有貨品直接在這個賣家手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8742.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8766.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
然後呢 你們去查了一件兩年只查到一件然後你們回答這個審計部然後就說我們會加強查 稽查然後呢 沒了 然後就沒了請問這個部長 署長我4月就質詢了部長那時候你還沒有上任當部長但在今年的4月我就質詢過署長了 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8768.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8795.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們在講說 我現在回到網路平台這件事違法輸入的業者和產品的品項是不是在實體通路和網路平台都消失了然後還是說這些業者避避風頭 立委質詢了然後政府管了一下子了 先下架但事過境天 一個月以後又開始賣了賣得下下叫 還在賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8796.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8814.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你看昨天的昨天的截圖還在賣還在賣隨便隨便都有請問一下這些有沒有申請輸入查驗他怎麼進來的簡體制欸全部都簡體制欸有沒有輸入許可有沒有申請查驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8819.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8845.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
連審計單位都要跟你講這有食安的疑慮耶7月29到現在發現有國安的疑慮因為豬瘟沒有豬瘟也有食安的疑慮耶請問一下審計部要求食藥署研議強化網路販售食品的稽查作為在哪裡署長你可以告訴我保證網路平台上現在去上網去看的都有申請輸入查驗的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8847.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8868.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這邊跟委員報告一下因為委員4月份提醒之後我們非常認真的去做因為我目前沒有電子商務法所以呢我們其實已經提出了修法為食品安全衛生法法條現在躺在哪裡第三條我其實對啦法條現在躺在哪裡你說要修法從4月講到現在對我們持續在有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8868.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8879.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
半年了對 我們會持續把這個速度再加快現在法在哪裡 到行政院了沒目前還沒有出衛福部了沒沒有 半年了我們繼續加緊速度 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8880.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8900.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
第一個部分剛才如委員所說的如何對於平台業者販賣業者課予所謂的行政義務的 電商平台的義務的這是第一個部分 第二個部分是他要強制你不要跟我講修法的內容 我知道啦但是我現在告訴你 在修法以前人家就是這樣進來的今天國安破口 防疫的破口 難道這裡不可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8903.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8925.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
現在網路上如果講食安平台上販賣的都有申請查驗嗎你不知道 你不知道事實上是沒有啦的確是沒有現在我再講中央主管機關是屬於安全的這個主責機關你開放了 我再講你108年的開放開放了免申請查驗卻沒有濫用這個制度的把關機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8926.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8954.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
你說你要限縮再限縮美金大概要多少要再限縮公斤重量要再限縮這樣就好了嗎你們的配套會是什麼你們的配套會是什麼你們給人家開了一個門然後東西都進來你沒有管理的辦法也沒有人在管理這像話嗎不然你開那個門說有需要配套也要有啊配套是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8955.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8974.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
你現在降低提高了門檻了那還是要有配套啊我們其實特別是針對用抱怨勾擊的方式對異常的我們會積極的去查核這邊謝謝委員的提醒電商平台修法義務草案我現在在講說你們個人自用免查驗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8976.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9005.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
其實我還不好意思講除了從海關進來的更多的是大家跑單幫的啦跑單幫小三通我每天去廈門再進來廈門進來一天可以跑五次跑十次化整為零啦個人攜帶的啦對不對怎麼會大家都看得到夜市全部滿街都是中國的食品啊肉製品啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9007.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9036.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
在台灣網路平台販賣的簡體製的很多啦所以我們在講食安五環在這裡食藥署你們開了門然後兩手一攤毫無作為這樣的食安防線誰能夠放心呢所以你說要有配套要查緝你也對我們講說要查緝你也對審計部說要查緝不要讓查緝兩個字成為笑話也不要讓食安防線成為笑話 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9038.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9067.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
保定你前幾天接受媒體採訪部長9月1號你接任以來你說食安的壓力最大你一再的告誡同仁食安事件沒有妥協的空間從今天各項的討論和資料可以看到你們是要屬管理食安進步的空間還很大我們認為你必須要展開結構性的改革不要再以事件處理的方式來面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9068.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9072.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
你不要每次都用事件處理去取代制度上的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9074.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9100.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這是連你們組織內包括法律法規的管制面已經是嚴重的制度的缺口了而署長承諾我們要修法半年前半年後還躺在你們衛福部還躺在食藥署連出你們衛福部都沒有如果這是最重要的事情很緊急的事情為什麼拖半年還沒到行政院還沒到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9101.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9115.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以這種牛布化是管理的方式嗎每天都這樣清清菜菜給省紀部運營的然後到這裡答詢立委 蓄意委儀署長站在台上撐過十分鐘就交差了 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9116.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9138.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這樣能夠讓人民感受到政府守護食安的決心和行動力嗎所以台灣的食品安全就是這樣一次又一次信心垮掉了所以我們要重新的建立起這個信心你必須走向制度化專業化而不是一次又一次的只是危機處理應變而不是只是事件處理應變 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9140.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9159.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
保證是不是什麼時候什麼時候可以給我們制度上的改變保證這個我們一個月提出檢討已經檢討半年了啦一個月內我們會把它再重新再檢討它的漏洞那該提出的修法年底前我們都會提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9160.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9178.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
年底前喔 年底剩下多久 兩個月喔 好 ok食藥署進步的空間很大 署長 謝謝謝謝委員 我們第一個就把我們的相關的訊息給各位委員其實能夠有看到 那修法的內涵內容其實都請各位委員多多就教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9180.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9208.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好啦 我們要休息了 抱歉休息十分鐘 抱歉我還是要提醒部長和署長剛剛真的是時間不夠林委員的資料跟我那個資料都很清楚那個是針對台灣的那是高科民運 那是針對台灣的我實在沒時間講 那個署長剛剛那個署長他怎麼會你怎麼不覺得你們郵政的主管講的那些壓力是普遍性的壓力不是好 謝謝休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9224.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9227.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9251.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9258.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我今天很早上 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9947.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9974.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好 休息時間到 請各位歡迎回座我們要繼續來進行詢問接下來請黃秀安黃委員黃昭偉來好 請回座好不好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝主席我們首先先請石部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9979.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10004.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好 委員好 部長好部長我相信你如果曾經出國要回國的時候這個要進到國內那會有那個檢疫的那個卡嗎如果你是 紅卡綠卡對 紅卡跟綠卡那我今天早上也聽到部長有特別提到就是說未來進來之後這個進到國內全部一律都要檢查是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10006.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10019.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
剛剛我們一直在確認這件事情那個可能比較詳細的細節是不是可以請關務署說明是 好不是 那個是農業部房間署 對 抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10027.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10045.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
是 報告委員其實早在108年的時候那院長去視察的時候為什麼會增加這個首檢區是因為當時我們的裁罰只要高強度的裁罰一個案子就是罰100萬那當然也達到阻嚇的作用但是很多的民眾就認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10047.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10075.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個罰度太高那是不是我們應該在之前有重新讓我們遊客檢視的機會那這個時候然後提醒他們說是不是有忘了忽略了帶一些含有肉製品的那所以在這樣的一個機制之下所以就有指示我們在與我們整個正式的通關檢查前設立了一個首檢區那這個首檢區就是協助遊客進來然後先再次檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10075.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10097.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
他的手提包包是不是含有一些肉質品或植物的產品那假設在這裡確實帶有這樣的一個產品那你就在那裡行丟棄那你到了海關通氣的時候那就不會有問題但假設你拒絕你拒絕通過手檢區那麼到了海關這個地方同樣要經過這個海關的檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10100.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10127.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那假設在這裡被檢測出來那你就是有帶有高風險的東西那麼送給我們假設是跟動植物有關那送給我們動物的開發一次就是20萬以上我想請教因為一開始那時候108年那時候應該算是比較嚴格那後面可能就是整個疫情比較緩和之後整個狀況可能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10128.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10146.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這個在海關那邊其實就沒有那麼嚴格我相信署長你自己本身應該也知道那我想請教就是說那未來進到海關進入國門之後你們現在是一律都要檢查或者是還是會分這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10149.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10163.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
紅線跟綠線你們還是會這樣分嗎那如果民眾確實他有帶其實我們看到有的如果這個他還是有帶然後他拿的是綠的卡片然後直接走綠線的話那你們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10164.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10188.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我想這個我們就從這件事件說我們大會檢討有兩個措施我們回去會盡數來做研理第一個就是說針對我們這個守檢軍行政指導的這個部分那是可以加減它的一個法源的依據跟裁罰的一個基準就是假設拒絕的話我們應該採取怎麼樣的措施來對這些不配合的旅客來加強做一些處罰的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10189.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10197.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以他不配合你們也沒有法則目前是行政指導因為當時的定位就是在協助遊客在通關之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10198.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10219.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
做再一次的檢視那第二件事情就是說我們現在是有採取分流那也就是跟39個高風險國家那是一定要要通過首檢區那這個非疫區的那才不需要那如果我覺得為了要提高我們整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10220.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10247.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
强度就是防疫的强度那或许我们会要求所有的来自任何的国家都要通过那这个部分我们会马上来做研明那我们希望就是说我们一直在讲说这个要阻绝于境外所以我觉得这一部分应该还要再加强另外我想请教就是说你们在这个防检的这个站里面大部分都是你们自己的同仁吗还是或者是委外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10248.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10271.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
是委託一個保全是因為委託保全公司來執行這個協助這個業務那你們自己的你們自己的那個這個防疫署這邊的人員是有多少人我們桃園分署是要派員來督導做這件事情的就是他在旁邊督導然後讓保全人員去做這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10272.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10288.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那我想請教就是說保全人員他有這樣的一個概念嗎有 我們一定要加強訓練我們也不定期在做訓練因為這些人員可能不了解到底要怎麼第一個態度最重要那第二個要怎麼樣來檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10291.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10305.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這些行李那包括在S光那裡有S光的判別那還有打開開箱以後那怎麼樣來處理所以這樣的業務是從什麼時候開始是這樣108年以後就交由保全去做這樣的一個工作那108年以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10308.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10330.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
是你們自己的沒有沒有設置這樣的一個機制以後才設置這樣的一個機制所以我覺得說這部分應該還要再去加強就是說我們一直希望主決於境外那這部分當然我們希望國人不要把一些肉製品或者是這個植物動植物的這種東西帶進來國內那當然還是會有人 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10334.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10350.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
也許是不小心也許是刻意故意那我覺得說這方面就是我們政府的責任要怎麼樣讓這個東西不要再帶進來我覺得這方面你們應該還要再去加強我跟委員再報告也不乏這個案例就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10351.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10367.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
從港澳進來那也那個那個他當然我了解也有這樣子拒絕他不經過結果到了我們的海關區的時候我們有檢疫犬在紅綠區那被檢疫犬嗅聞到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10368.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10385.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
他從包包裡拿出來是在機上沒有吃完的三明治那一下子就肉檢就是20萬就開罰那他的當下的作為就是他不繳那不繳就是拒絕入境就被遣送回去了所以這種的都是都有這樣的一個案例的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10386.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10404.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我覺得說這方面應該還要再加強就像我再問一下部長跟食藥署署長今天很多委員在關心就是從郵包進到台灣來那這些郵包我不知道說你們到底要怎麼去檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10405.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10418.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
裡面也有肉製品可能有一些食物什麼之類的零零總總非常多那我相信你們應該也沒有那個人力去檢查這麼多的包裹那未來你們要怎麼處理這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10420.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10449.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
當然現在雖然說他是有一定就6公斤以下1000美金以下他是免驗沒錯但是他還是要去上登錄啦就登錄他這個東西是什麼那麼所以我們在研究我們研究就是有一些頻繁用一些其他的這個勾機方式比如說他是不斷的頻繁的在輸入自用因為這個原則是只適用於自用如果不是自用的那還是多少公斤都是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10449.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10465.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
要查验的那所以是针对那个自用很频繁在输入这些东西的自用的来加强这个追查所以我觉得就是因为这样的一个事件我觉得你们这一个部分应该还要再加强 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10466.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10494.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
跟委員補充一下因為不管是多少的量他輸入的一定要合法與可以輸入的品項登入在官務署駕食藥署才會給予免查驗登記的所以這樣子兩邊配起來之後他才會免驗所以剛才講的非洲豬肉這豬肉相關的疫區的都是不准進來的所以他不會是可以同意得到所謂的免驗的這一項相次跟輸入相次以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10496.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10513.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那如果類似就是說我們覺得說小包裹這個部分確實是目前一般民眾就是常用的購買的一個媒介一個平台這個網購平台真的是非常多我相信不論是這個我們那個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10516.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10537.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
中華我們確實每一天收到的這種小包裹真的非常的多那我希望就是說我們在查驗的這方面應該還要再加強不然有時候就是透過這樣的一個小包裹就進來台灣了另外我是不是請部長回我是不是可以再請教就是有關我們農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10539.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10568.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
就是說未來除了說我們邊境這個肉品確實可以攔查可能就在邊境就可以直接查驗嘛那如果說是人員他進到疫區也許他有到那個畜牧場那回來之後他如果沒有通報那他是不是也可能把這個病毒就透過他的衣服他的鞋子就直接帶進來那類似這樣的話你們未來要怎麼處理謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10569.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10585.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
現在所有的牧場它的管理者經營者全部都入案所以都在海關裡面這些通關的時候全部都要經過一些相關的處理措施才可以入關所以是針對所有的牧場對的經營者 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10589.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10614.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我覺得說這方面因為這一次的非洲豬瘟台中案場其實在前幾天還查得到就是這個主人這個場主的雨鞋還有他們的一些器具還是有這樣的一個病毒那表示就是說其實這個病毒它是可以存在而且可以存在很久可以存活到一千天 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10615.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10643.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
确实这个时间真的非常长所以我觉得说不论是真的是肉品或者是一些他的衣服雨鞋或者一些器具我觉得确实真的要去落实倾销的这样的一个动作要不然可能就真的会透过其他的媒介又传出去那你们针对这一部分我们现在列管的有390户的经营者 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10644.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10670.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那所有他的出入境尤其是入境的時候這些的一個所有相關的防疫配合措施一定要做到那另外就是我要提醒就是說一旦有發生這樣的一個案例的時候其實我覺得進出的人員應該也要管制像這一次這個案場可能很多媒體或很多人就這樣進出那當時也沒有管制啊你們當時應該也都沒有管制吧其實我們第一時間就已經跟台中市政府講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10671.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10688.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這個案場一定要管制包括人進出的人跟他們自己的事主這個案場主你也不能隨便亂跑而且跑到別的地方去做開槓所以這個都有要求他們要做那對案組的部分我們是有法規可以發那有確定落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10689.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10711.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我覺得應該也沒落實所以現在在昨天的時候前天吧那個警政署這邊也跟地方的配合去拉封鎖線針對整個暗場那個已經又過了幾天了對所以這個也是我們要求台中市政府應該先把暗場這個地方先做一些阻絕讓外人不要進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10712.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10736.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我覺得就是說房間署這邊應該未來如果有類似這樣的一個狀況因為本來後來不是說彰化分園也有一場可能類似後來是說陰性嘛對不對那當時那時候隔天就是新聞有這樣報的時候隔天就很多媒體就在那裡面在播所以我覺得說未來如果有類似的狀況其實我覺得房間署你們應該要去嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10739.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10755.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
管控所有不相干的人确实就是不能进到那个案场里面我在跟委员报告我们同步开设这个我们中央医院中心其实大概每半年都会每三个月吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10755.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10778.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就召開一次那這一次事件的時候地方的整個災變中心也開設了那事實上地方災變中心就有這個權限去做這樣的一個處理所以我們一再的提醒台中市政府要有作為好是我是覺得說要落實啦是是是好謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝署長請回接下來請蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10781.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10785.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
主席麻煩那個數位發展部的數位產業署的林組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10812.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10828.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
委員好 主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10831.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10852.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10858.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10886.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
問經濟部也不是他農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他然後那可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎好謝謝委員其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多委員知道說其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議那 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10887.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10915.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能郭組長交流完如果沒有後續好我們看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10916.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10942.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
而且要判断到底有没有用为什么因为你们说你们要去做一些阻断的时候常常就会说我们如果直接在电商的平台上去做个实验就知道在疑似有小包装猪肉流入台湾的新闻后包括虾皮已经淘宝都说我早在2019年的时候就已经应政府的政策有关规定宣称已经严办那 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10943.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10961.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以甲官建制 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10962.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10981.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
風味 圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境 跨商 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10982.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11007.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11009.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11027.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
大家跟我也報告一下 其實落地這件事情來講當然指的有一些公司 當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點 重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11028.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11048.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對那如果說今天它沒有落地的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11049.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11074.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落定我跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11075.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11096.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
所以这就是我想问的你的各电商平台的这个组阁跟措施真的有到位吗甚至你有没有主动去去稽查因为你先讲境外就是有落地的都一样如果没有主动的话你根本不知道他们真的是在用我刚刚提的很多方法来规避掉责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11098.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11120.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
謝謝委員 其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌 傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11121.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11131.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11136.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11161.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西主长所以目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11163.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11183.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带这个是不是也是违反平台规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11186.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11199.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11200.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11217.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那个字号用假的别人合格的得到合格证的就我去拿别人的因为平台事实上是用城市串接来跟NCC跟经济部比对所以平台并没有进行所谓的审核跟或比对的原始文件真伪 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11218.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11234.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11234.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11257.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11257.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11271.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11273.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11286.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11290.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11307.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果它用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11309.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11323.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来是去年他讲他讲说玩针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11324.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11347.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊那不管嘛對 它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11349.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11372.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦可是他的这个就是针筒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11373.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11390.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11391.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11412.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟一般的真的不一樣那你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材的等級很遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11415.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11437.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11437.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11459.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
跟委員說明他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀手術刀這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是他根據他的用途來歸類他該用什麼管因為醫療器材他有他的功能性跟他的安全性規格會比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11459.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11479.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11482.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11503.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷達在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11504.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11530.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情织其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联访互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫那夏业我觉得我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11532.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11554.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子但是所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11555.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11576.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11577.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11594.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11595.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11620.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11620.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11620.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
不然你知道這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11644.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11671.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11672.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11699.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法源依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11701.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11704.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
王政訓委員來發言來謝謝主席主席各位同仁其實面對非洲豬瘟的威脅我們更應該要保持沉著跟冷靜這樣才有辦法面對這麼大疫情的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11729.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11744.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
從美國107年以來非洲豬瘟在全球快速的擴散之下其實台灣我們很早就成立了非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心共同來度過 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11746.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11760.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
跨部會的協調還有結合地方政府跟民間單位的力量在中央政府的主導之下共同來投入防疫工作在全國人民的高度警覺跟配合之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11761.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11778.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我們成功的阻擋疫情的入侵也守住了國內豬肉產業跟糧食的安全這樣的努力當然是成果非常豐碩大家都有目共睹那國際的肯定也讓我們的豬肉可以再次行銷全球 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11780.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11806.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
因此我相信面對這一次的新一波的疫情挑戰只要中央跟地方大家持續的緊密合作攜手民間的力量共同鎖住防線我們一定能夠再次成功控制疫情守護國家跟農業的安全一開始想要針對關務署的查緝的量能的問題來請教請關務署的蘇副署長請蘇副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11811.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11837.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
市副署長好 今天已經討論很多了不過我想還是先再就教一下 因為不管是在國境安全各方面 關務署都針對於旅客的行李 郵包 貨運各類進口出入品都是一個很重要的角色所以希望有三個部分來請教副署長 第一個就是到底人員目前的狀況如何是不是有嚴重的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11838.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11847.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
第二個就是AI輔助辨識系統的建置的進度第三個就是小三通也是大家很關心的部分那目前的查緝狀況是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11849.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11878.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們也知道畢竟在那麼大的流量之下X光的判讀是非常重要的所以第一線的官員的查緝他的專業也非常非常的重要這個專業當然就會有分級的需求也謝謝當初有提出分級的制度之下也讓我們的同仁可以透過初階中階到高階的判讀讓人力的分布可以更為符合現場的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11879.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11904.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那這個部分有制度當然很好可是總體的量還是要共同讓他在工作的同時呢就能夠有很好的這些人力的分配把關那我們以基隆關為例基隆關其實編制是1084位配置了1072可是現有才1008位 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11906.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11923.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
意思就是說即使是在有這麼好的編制事實上真的在現場的人力還是相對不足只有還缺少了60位那這樣的衝擊我相信大家其實是當然會很辛苦尤其最近這一波 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11924.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11946.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
好像大家應該是都能了解啦也能知道現場人員在這個過程裡面就好像醫療單位我們也同樣面臨這樣的壓力那其實在兩年前就已經有相關的委員注意到關護署這個業務增加人力不足的部分那現在到底情況如何有沒有一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11947.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11956.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
好的一個數據的呈現針對全體的觀物同仁目前的人力配置的部分有沒有什麼改善措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11957.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11969.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
是謝謝委員非常的理解海關的這個業務的一個繁重以及關切我們海關人力不足的一個問題那這邊跟委員報告因為海關的這個人力的來源主要就是官務特考就是經由這個考試的一個分發那我們當然在我們現有的人力之下我們還是要在我們的國門這邊要 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11986.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11990.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
盡力的來把關所以我們主要我們會運用相關的風險管理機制來做查核以及運用這個高科技的一些查核工具那剛剛委員槌尋的就是有關我們在人力的部分那我們目前就是我們配合這個公務人員的一個勤修的制度我們已經有增加165人 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12011.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12016.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那就是包括在有行李檢查方面以及貨物的一個檢查人數方面我們有增加那針對我們另外就是在官務特考我們今年有新在12月的時候就會有46位的新進的人員會投入海關的這個行列那另外就是我們也有提報在明年官務特考的人數我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12038.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12060.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
一个缺额的需用的名额大概有300人就是明年的光屋特考我们希望能够有禁用300人的一个人数那另外就是针对有关非洲猪瘟的一个防疫因为在107年中国大陆它爆发非洲猪瘟以来那我们这边就是为了要防堵非洲猪瘟所以行政院在109年的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12068.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12096.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
一直到就是到目前是有66個人是同意行政院同意我們延長到115年底就是這個約顧的人數所以可以來當然可以協助來補充我們這個有關非洲豬瘟的查緝的一個人力那我們當然如果說因為這樣子的一個人力缺口就是剛才跟委員報告的如果在考試的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12099.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12104.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
補足之前的這個空窗期我們現在如果還是就是針對人力方面的確非常緊繃的狀況下我們希望說也可以再跟行政院人事行政總處來討論是不是可以再增加我們這個約顧人員的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12117.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12137.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
一個元額的增加的一個情況那我們希望說我們可以在有關這個防堵被動作用的地方可以在更多的一個人力投入謝謝好很期待這個年底能夠有效的補足人力我們知道業務量大當然這個流動率就會高 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12138.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12162.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以就要看各級長官如何跟我們這些基層的同仁把感情讓他們繼續替台灣這個防疫的部分再更盡一份心力再來就是小山通那個查緝的部分因為我們也都了解這次租屋的內容很有可能當然不排除是不是小山通也是入侵的管道之一這兩天相關的訊息大家也都看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12163.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12177.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
其實也不是只有地霸而已我們也知道小三通可能還有其他的包括各種的零食 煙酒 乾香菇等等產品會透過小三通進來那目前到底在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12178.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12200.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
有沒有相關在處理上可以更精進的地方包括說面對小山東通路的查緝風險在管理上跟查緝上措施有沒有在做一些針對這些從這個對岸跑到台灣這樣的這些可能性的這種管理措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12201.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12219.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那另外對於這個特定航線有沒有加強這個查緝的機制那第三點就是當然這個AI風險分析跟行李辨識系統來提高這個攔檢效率這個也都是可以努力的方向那不顯然有沒有什麼進度可以跟國人在做報告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12220.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12237.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
是跟委員報告就是有關小三通的部分因為小三通就是中國大陸這邊的入境旅客那針對小三通他的入境旅客他的不管是手提或者是他托運的行李我們都是會百分之百經過X光的一個檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12238.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12241.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那如果說我們檢查發現有異狀我們開箱有查獲相關的這些不管是豬肉或者是香菇等等農產品這些違規的物品我們就會立即移送給房間署這邊來做處理那當然我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12257.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12274.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
針對剛才委員有提到我們對於比較就是高風險的這個就是有關這個中國大陸這邊的他我們當然就加強我們會跟房檢署這邊來合作以及在我們這個邊境上面的相關查緝機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12275.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12292.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
包括海巡這邊我們都會合作來加強來查緝那有關剛才委員有特別提到AI的部分跟委員報告我們其實我們在110年7月的時候我們就有建置AI的一個影像辨識的一個輔助那當時是針對毒品的一個影像的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12299.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12314.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
訓練我們有部署108套的這樣子的一個系統在我們的通關點那我們就是也針對有關肉品跟跟這個香煙等等這個部分我們後續就是有另外一個次世代的一個計畫會擴充在114年到117年之間我們會陸續的來擴充肉品跟香煙的一個辨識 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12323.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12347.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
好謝謝副署長的說明那會後會請這邊提供小山東近三年的通關數量查詢數量跟品項給辦公室做參考因為我們想要了解最近這一段時間有什麼比較明顯波動的部分再過來你剛剛提到就是AI輔助辨識系統的建置進度我想這個非常的重要因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12349.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12364.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
量的部分我們人力需要透過更好的科技來協助我們也知道關務署也推動了AI輔助辨識系統的設置那這部分審計部在去年的總決算審核報告裡面有提出了三個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12365.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12389.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
希望能夠再改善的第一個就是可辨識毒品藏匿樣態的不足會影響到AI系統的準確性第二個部分AI系統僅能夠辨識一些物品然後判斷率的高低等等所以對於這個氣濕的效能好像還可以再提升第三個廠商會依合約規定來落實AI系統版本的管理跟監控的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12390.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12410.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那這三項缺失目前有沒有改善的一些進度跟可以讓大家可以更放心的地方跟委員報告就是有關這個樣態不足的部分我們現在我們的一個精進方式就是我們會去擴充我們的訓練資料運用我們相關的這些影像處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12414.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12416.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
他的一個報告調整角度等等的這些我們會去會去擴充他的一個一個資料的一個訓練另外我們也會持續去收集我們相關查獲的案例把它輸入這個AI的一個訓練裡頭那我們其實我們要求我們各個官區就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12435.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12438.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
他如果已經有查獲相關的這些物品馬上就要去去掃描他的相關的這些圖檔來來輸入我們的這個相關的這個程式另外我們也也會持續來就是跟跟這個法務部這邊我們去申請他有關相關的這個毒品的樣品或者相關的這些我們去 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12465.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12487.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
讓我們整個研發AI影像電視的系統可以去做進一步的學習我們很期待這個系統的建置可以更周全當然有了系統以後後面的計畫就要跟著執行包括貴署也在推動次世代人工智慧輔助氣師計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12489.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12515.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這個計畫裡面有列了相關的六大目標包括培養科技的查緝能量第二個就是提升這個氣絲的作業效能第三個是舒緩海關第一線的人力負擔第四個是增進整體通關效率第五個是培養海關AI專業人才最後一項是降低判斷與不必要的開驗比例不知道署裡面對這個計畫的信心度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12515.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12536.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我想我們是絕對有信心可以去達成是因為在很快雖然是到117年才最後驗收事實上面對這一次的這一波的挑戰應該是更快希望把這個計畫能夠落實好謝謝副處長那最後有一個問題我們再請教一下經濟部的長官們 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12545.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12563.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
主長 委員好主長你好我們知道這次的這個衝擊對於整個這個豬的產業非常的明顯的影響那昨天我們的召委也在提到相關的樹困計畫裡面他含了七大項 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12564.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12580.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
其中有一項我們特別關心的就是豬肉攤商的鄉親們他們的衝擊跟目前為止我們了解我們傳統市場的豬肉攤商到底全台灣有多少量如何能夠協助他們渡過這個難關 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12582.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12610.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
跟委員報告我們經濟部目前掌握的傳統市場的攤商數這個是地方政府列管的這個數字有那目前非洲豬瘟發生之後我們有請地方政府去統計這些攤商數裡面是生鮮豬肉攤的這個數字目前還在統計中那有些縣市政府還沒有回報那就是有回報的他們也一直不斷地在修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12611.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12639.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那目前这个后续我们有规划针对猪肉摊商的补助措施那这个目前行政院在研议到时候会有行政院统一对外公布如果说有相关的统计数字回来可不可以提供一份资料给我们办公室因为我们也很希望针对这些乡亲们在应用的过程里面将来有哪一些可以透过大家共同努力来让他们度过这个难关好 谢谢谢谢主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12640.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12668.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好謝謝我們的王委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在那就羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在那麻煩楊耀委員好謝謝主席主席我先請教江署長江署長江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12676.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12702.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
署長好署長我先請問一個問題就是我有看到媒體報導財政部關務署想要發函你們建議食藥署調整現行入境旅客的免衛福部許可證明可以攜帶6公斤食品入境大概是希望你們可以限縮我不知道你們有沒有收到這個公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12705.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12729.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我想這公文是還沒有收到但是我們有相關的訊息我們積極在討論也私下也有在討論溝通當中那這個食藥署的的看法是怎麼樣報告委員因為因為你們你們是在在2019規定規定了一百一千元以美元以下然後六公斤六公斤以內嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12732.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12737.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
官務處這樣子的想法我不知道食藥署這邊的看法是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12739.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12762.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這邊跟委員簡單的說明因為當初108年會有這樣子的一個私品免輸入證明容許的一些想法就是因應國人一般旅遊或者是可能遊學出國或者是學習他可能帶回來給等等的那有一點變民的一個味道在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12763.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12779.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以在這種前提之下訂定了1000美元有6公斤以下的是免輸入的證明但是輸入這件事情對於所有的任何輸入產品都必須要官務署做簡單登記是產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12781.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12804.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那產品的相次如果是不符合不准許輸入的就是不准許所以我們這邊也不會發給它免輸入證明所以兩部分的把關其實是可以的所以在這種前提之下我們對於免輸入的相次裡面證明的部分其實一直以來我們都沒有看到有非洲豬瘟相關的一些肉品的輸入的一個情勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12805.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12825.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那在108年公佈之後109年我們其實有一些些看到需要做微調的109年7月15日的時候公告希望微調把1000美元可不可以定義在每日這是第一個第二個是把所有的錢是集中起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12825.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12852.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那之前是每一項產品每一個報單那我們希望是每日的報單等等的一些規定那我們在提出相關的一些甄選意見的過程中總共有197件就一件佔成那由許許多多有不同的樣態甚至希望能夠更放鬆 份況寬可是我們的目的其實是對於合法需要自用的讓它可以進來讓它能夠在規制底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12852.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12877.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那今天也很多的委員的垂詢裡面對於我們如何去做後續的一些管制確實它裡面的那我們一直的認為如果要對非洲豬瘟能夠去確實能夠掌握那重量的部分當然是不是最重要其實內容的品項那內容品項目前在輸入的品項裡面其實沒有發現特定的異常跟不符合規定的地方那一定是在管制之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12878.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12894.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所以當初在109年之後聽到很多意見其實暫緩就沒有做每日的一些規定跟總金額的規定那剛剛也有委員有提到我們其實在看到勾基的過程中的確有非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12894.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12919.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所謂的偏差的數據的一些業者那我們在今年9月1號跟9月18號其實在台中 中區我們就直接去看那一個柱子也進行了裁罰所以我們早在這一次的事件之前呢我們就關注到這個議題那我們會持續跟關務署這邊做協調也聽取各位委員及所有大眾的意見這是個案的部分 個案的集合的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12921.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12941.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那我剛剛聽了署長的說明我其實看法跟署長是蠻一致的我覺得金額跟重量基本上並不是重點就在這一次我們如何防堵非洲豬瘟 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12942.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12960.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
進入的這個政策目標上並不是重點重點是在相次 對不對對 的確是在 比如說肉品的輸入我們就不允許它是在肉品的在個人自用的那非疫區的也絕對是不能夠進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12961.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12976.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
相對的其他一方面的食品自己使用而且在輸入許可的範圍內那當然是以尊重個人使用我們會許可它免驗因為我們這邊免驗會跟關務署這邊的在勾結之後的確就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12977.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12996.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
省卻了民眾需要被查查的部分那這部分其實優先的順序其實在於變民為最重要的優先但是對於用這個途徑去做特別的可能是帶進來做所謂的商業上面使用那我們因為積極的查查之下 裁罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12997.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13024.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
進一步呢我會把相關訊息跟關務處這邊做很好的勾結對那以上說明好謝謝署長署長請回謝謝說得非常的的詳細就是應該還是以品相的控管才是重點主席我請一下房間署杜署長房間署 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13033.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13047.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們目前得到的資訊是我們因為有非洲助溫的案例所以目前被取消了非預期國家的地位假如說未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13050.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13074.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
10月25報已經成報了那假如未來三個月內沒有新的疫情就會恢復非預期的國家那這個是很重要的一件事情所以我想要利用這個機會請教一下署長可不可以詳細說明一下你們目前對於非洲豬瘟清零的進度跟未來的規劃是怎麼樣好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13076.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13096.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
跟委員來做報告你把政策講得清楚一點好的 我們現在的處理上大概就是在第一個 暗場暗場的一個控管上暗場對 因為現在所有的證據都指向這裡因為即便到現在針對暗場的周邊的檢測那今天出來又有兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13097.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13117.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
陽性 那就是針對這個案場所以這個案場的控管是非常非常重要那第二個就是全國的防疫工作那全國防疫工作到目前為止已經進行第二輪那一定要落實他的防疫的作為所以這個部分也有做高強度的控管所以我們大概針對5441場10%的這個高危險區的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13123.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13137.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
也加強的清潔跟清消的工作跟檢測的工作所以把全國的案場大家都動起來那第三個就是在移動的車輛方面比如說我們的化製車飼料車載租的車 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13139.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13159.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那這些車會移動所以對他們的控管是非常非常的重要的所以這部分不管是傾銷或環境的PCR也相對困難啦對 但我們一定要做到所以現在目前已經進行到第二輪那到目前的傾銷所有案場的抽驗PCR也是零 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13160.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13186.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那第三個就是針對我們屠宰場跟肉品市場的部分那這個的部分也是一樣所有的工作包括你現在因為有些是豬停停宰停停屠宰但羊跟牛也繼續進行所以他的傾銷跟檢測監測的作為就非常的重要所以這個部分也在做進行對那所以我們用嚴密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13187.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13206.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
控管做防疫高強度的防疫的一個作為就是希望能夠達到清理那跟委員報告到目前我們所有的檢測還是零除了暗場以外其他的還是零但是我們沒有辦法掉以輕心所以我們還是持續用高強度在做防疫的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13208.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13222.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
政策目標要落實還是必須要靠很嚴密的整個細節都要很注意像我們在COVID-19的疫情期間衛福部的相關作為是做得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13223.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13237.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
陳政委也有跟我們在應變中心來指導所以我們也吸取過去做COVID-19的經驗然後導入到我們這一次的防疫的一個作為所以整體上就更加的精進也更加的嚴密 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13238.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13265.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
因為這件事情對國家的經濟的風險太大了所以一定要很小心那我最後提醒一下就是因為台中有爆發非洲豬瘟的疫情就是這個案場全國就禁用廚餘台中市政府有一些露天的堆置廚餘然後媒體報導我不知道是不是真的就是媒體報導說 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13268.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13295.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
就是暫至廚餘的地方有野豬出沒那這件事情會有什麼影響那要怎麼因應報告委員台中市政府 我的時間到了所以你簡要說明就好好 針對廚餘的部分以及加強要求台中市政府做嚴密的處理這個衛福部一直在做處理那第二個針對這個他們的這個廚藝場的附近有一些野豬的活動的部分那昨天我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13297.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13324.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
林務署也已經同行要求他們設圍籬來阻絕不要讓這些野豬能夠進入到我們的廚宇或其他的一個地區對 我們不要防堵了家戶養豬結果野豬出問題這個也是一個很大的麻煩對 加強控管好啦 辛苦啦 謝謝署長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13325.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13344.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
好謝謝楊耀委員發言那接下來請葉元之委員發言主席好麻煩關務署房檢署還有房政司 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13357.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13382.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
好 那個各位那個官員我們今天在討論說這個防止豬瘟阻絕於邊境主要是這件事情那我們先來看一下我們先來看一下這個豬瘟其實不是只有在有些人強調的中國大陸或東南亞這個紅線的這個紅色的部分其實是有豬瘟出現的 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13386.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13410.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
其實蠻多的我們是看到說我們現在政府是在10月22號才開始說要針對中國大陸跟東南亞要開始查緝其食品但其實你可以看到9月15號韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟它在今年年初的時候就有了然後到9月15號 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13411.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13421.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
變得比較嚴重他們調整到最高等級的嚴重那我們今天為什麼為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品其他國家的防範機制有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13424.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13447.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我跟委员报告所有非洲国家的只要含猪肉跟肉质的产品都不可以进来国内所有的都不行所有不行我知道但是那这边政府讲说只针对中国跟东南亚加强这新闻中央社的报道那如果针对加强那其他的为什么不加强 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13447.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13476.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
跟委員報告那中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的氣質品就是不管在海關那或者是在國際機場或者是在我們的港口等等這些氣質品裡面那我們去抽驗逐驗抽驗那從他的檢疫物的檢疫的結果那發現我們非洲豬瘟呈陽性的10%那其中中國大陸還有越南包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13477.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13506.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
比率比较高的因为比率比较高所以比较加强那当然我觉得应该是要做到滴水不漏啦我们来看一个东西就是有关于邮包的部分因为我看到民进党的立委吴思瑶非常重视这一块但他主要都是针对中国可是实际上有一些跨境电商你们也可以去看一下特别是到底是哪一些东西是可以下定哪一些东西是不能下定国人到现在搞不太清楚连吴思瑶都搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13506.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13534.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我看到吳思堯他在他的貼文上面講說淘寶的罐頭很多但實際上請問一下署長罐頭是可不可以可不可以訂購署長罐頭可以訂購嗎罐頭目前是可以的罐頭可以嗎但吳思堯不知道他以為罐頭不可以所以他講說淘寶上面有罐頭這些都要查所以你看連執政黨立委做過幹市長的都搞不清楚可見其他的國人到底哪一些可以透過那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13535.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13563.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
電商來購買或哪些不可以現在大家還是很混亂那我現在秀幾個給你看這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的像左邊這個是酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包請問一下這個可以進來台灣嗎可以嗎其實這要看製程要看製程 對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13564.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13577.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13578.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13601.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題耶是 跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0值有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是 你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13603.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13626.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13631.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13645.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
这个可以进来台湾吗如果只看外包装的话没有办法判定那你上面讲说液态含肉液态汤是指什么上一页含肉液态汤类这是指什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13647.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13665.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13667.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13695.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13696.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13722.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方簡吉來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對 但是我現在就是在跨境電商上面抓的照片它就沒有下架你就是可以訂我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰那要怎麼去解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13724.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13742.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
現在問題在這裡嘛是 所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商及時的下架不是啊 那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商 是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13743.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13763.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那我们会持续的跟无垫面工会等等的团体沟通这个是副组长是不是你讲的都是口号嘛我讲的是实际嘛我现在想的是实际上我们民众会遇到的问题你讲都是口号你讲都是原则嘛但实际上原则跟实际现在听起来有极大的落差嘛所以就会有漏洞嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13764.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13791.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
因為這段時間真的是對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13793.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13815.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以这样子我们来正面表列来让民众可以参考 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13816.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13844.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
但我跟我们说一般我们高温杀菌我们的高温杀菌大概121度我知道这个原则我都知道啦这个原则我都我现在是在讲实务面嘛你现在讲的东西大家还是听不懂啊实务面嘛因为我刚刚就是具体问你嘛我是消费者我要下单到底可不可以你们也无法回答啊你只讲一个原则啊那你讲的原则大家都知道啊可是那个原则放到实际上面就无法操作嘛这就是有漏洞嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13845.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13874.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
然後再來就是現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案總共14件對吧主要原因是什麼人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13875.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13898.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
不是 这个我可能要说明一下他的太阳上第一个我先说明进来的雾绝对是全部销毁但我们是追人的责任我知道有销毁我们现在是在讲说那对人的责任的部分要因为我们在查访这个当事人的时候很多都认为说他是被冒名或他不知情多少 1320件里面有多少件他是说他被冒名 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13900.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13915.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
多少件 這個還要再這個沒有 這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會答不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是 這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊 對那總共幾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13923.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13934.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那目前有采訪的是9案我知道采訪9案 訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13936.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13957.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單的嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13959.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13985.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來收集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13990.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14018.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個很嚴重這個是有問題的接下來請張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在請陳穎委員來做巡檔謝主席麻煩請一下畜牧師來 畜牧師 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14021.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14036.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
選擇寄贈好非常好好我是寄贈好 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14037.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14056.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我想這次非洲豬瘟的事件目前豬隻近載近運的問題一直到11月6號我想這幾天都人心惶惶我好多肉商的朋友都非常的緊張當然消費者也相當的緊張有很多的擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14057.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14074.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那擔心這個價格的飆漲或者是之後的崩盤都是大家非常關心的問題那我想要先請教一下就是說目前農業部是有不斷的強調說豬肉的供給是 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14077.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14102.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
无余的那但是我想我们先来谈一下这个冷冻猪肉价格的问题你所了解的目前这段时间的市场波动价格波动的状况是怎么样冷冻猪肉的部分报告委员这个部分在这段期间我们有跟冷冻肉品工会做一些调度你可以对麦克风听到 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14103.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14125.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
在量的供應跟價格的波動上都算穩定都算穩定但是根據新聞報導目前你所謂的穩定因為目前有一公斤飆漲到200元的狀況他豬肉的本來他這不同部位的價格他本來就會不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14126.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14150.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
所以我们在同一个部位肉的前后的变动他都在一个1%2%左右所以不是很大的变动这天出来这个新闻算是假讯息吗就我们的了解是没有变动冷冻猪肉没有变动价格价格都没有波动对 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14152.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14172.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那所以對所以我們那一則我們出現的那個那一則新聞的報導是他是錯誤的我是巨產試驗所那就這個肉品加工就是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14176.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14190.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
各位會不會嚇是不一定啦但是就肉的這個部位的價格來看的話像我們吃的這個冷凍的這個算是三層肉跟冷凍的這個類似是 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14197.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14218.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
嘴边肉吗对嘴边肉那个一公斤要五百多块所以那个是正常的价格那你现在在冷冻的这个排骨排骨就是这个起码要两百是正常的你们要强调是每个部位都维持在一个稳定的价格 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14220.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14226.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
好 那所以你們也沒有針對這個10月27號這篇報導有什麼樣的說明跟解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14232.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14254.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
是他們斷章取義本來一公斤120元的漲到200元突破200元所以他們沒有講清楚是哪個部位漲的應該是這樣子好那如果他們說的120元破200元那大概這幾天120元的那個部位是指什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14255.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14282.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
就是指全豬就是後腿這邊的肉就是專門做貢丸的部分這個肉120到130所以那個部位大部分大概是落在這裡對好 所以假如因為針對我不是豬肉專家我是負責吃而已但是呢但是這個部分因為造成很多這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14283.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14297.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
消費者的擔心所以我覺得有什麼樣的新聞你們應該也要很關注那有必要說明的時候也應該要發個新聞稿澄清一下不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14300.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14323.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
報告委員對於這個豬肉的價格這個部分事實上我們都有在監控好所以冷凍的部分目前是沒有問題所以我們也不需要再協調協調工會啦或者是我們是每天都有在跟他們保持協調好那但是因為有這一則新聞我要麻煩你們也要處理一下嘛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14327.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14354.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那再来就是有关于这个进载禁运期间还有之后的问题当然在进载禁运的期间猪肉可能飙涨那我们很多的这个地方首长啦民代啦也都会担心所以所以像我们台东当然也也一样宣布这个进载禁运那当然在进载禁运之后这个因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14357.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14373.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我們在這段期間齁其實有個開銷是固定的啦就是這個譬如說飼料啦人工啦他就是豬隻還是會不斷的吃然後他會長大嘛那長大你不屠宰他 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14374.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14401.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
他又要他又會繼續吃那這飼料也是一個開銷所以我覺得這些肉商這些養出的就是說他們殺也賠不殺也賠所以這個部分當然在這個價錢的控管方面我不曉得就是說你們在這個部分是不是已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14402.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14404.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
比較明確的處置方式了 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14406.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14434.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
是 跟委員報告我們要到超前部署吧有 這個部分對於這一些補助的措施這一些都有在研議即將會提出來另外對於再來之後這一段期間禁運禁載期間的租資它日後開市以後它的供應我們也會做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14436.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14445.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
調節跟調配那個你們可以大概提一下大概是哪幾個方向哪些哪些方式來協助穩定這個價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14450.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14477.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
就是說它開市以後因為我們近載經營了15天所以會有大概有將近30萬隻的豬隻那這個部分我們因為如果你同一天上市的話那它的價格就容易產生大的波動所以這個部分我們在調配上面會去做處理讓它不要同時去上市 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14477.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14488.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以你們只有在做這個租資的這個調配跟控管而已嗎其他的沒有需要再跟其他工會協調或者是政府的一些補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14491.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14520.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
成銷人拍賣這個部分都還是很好 那署長委員我特別跟您報告那我們同步都有考慮到對這些的損失受影響的一個補貼所以這個一級生產因為我們畢竟即便是協調協調這些工會進來協助那大家也是要釋放力多不然誰願意做您剛才關注的包括不管我們是養豬的農民還是我們的批發市場包括肉品市場還有我們的成銷人包括屠宰場 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14521.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14541.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
以及是我們這個EDP次的母豬場那這些的部分都有研擬這個補助跟相關的一個措施那另外也針對廚餘的養豬場用這個飼料的差價以及有油脂的一個補助這邊都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14542.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14560.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
都已經研擬 但現在就等整個院裡面定案以後就可以適當實際公布你這樣講就比較清楚一點 好 謝謝好 那你們都請回座那我們接下來就是請那個衛福部長來 請時部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14565.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14588.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
5月份本期有在這裡質詢有關於也還有安排到這個蘭嶼考察有關於這個蘭嶼醫院興建的部分那當時前部長邱部長已經有允諾10月份會提報這個公建計劃所以我大概目前今天我想大概追一下進度了解一下說目前進度狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14588.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14617.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
好 跟委員報我們規劃未來這個蘭嶼醫院跟蘭嶼衛生所因為它很鄰近我們會把它整併起來一起來運作讓這個人力資源 醫療資源可以集中運用那目前已經提報了一個計畫到行政院10月28號已經送了那規劃是地上三層的建物那未來會提供住院的床宿還有這個包含這個透析床還有復健 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14618.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14640.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
还有这个内外科的服务这样所以目前那个总经费多少公企大概需要几万差不多是6亿7千万只有6亿7千万吗这件物以后每年的营运都还可能需要补贴因为那天到蓝宇的时候我印象中我有看到大概一个14亿的数字 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14646.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14668.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那個可能是本來是這樣做要把那個蘭嶼衛生所先移植然後整個打掉之後然後再蓋所以是包含衛生所的那個費用對對對那個還要移植那我們現在是規劃這樣會很久所以我們把它分一期二期工程來蓋所以先在衛生所旁邊的空地先蓋起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14669.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14680.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
就不要等那个卫生所移植移植之后再打这样时间会拖太长好那所以我们现在信件计划到底是已经送到哪里了 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14680.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14698.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
在行政院我們28號送出OK已經到行政院了好那這個部分我想其實我們這個消息出來也受到就是說在地有一些部分蘭嶼鄉民的質疑因為可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14699.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14728.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
過去他們會有一些被欺騙不好的經驗所以認為說我們是不是又在畫大餅那我想這個部分當然他們也有比較具體的提出說當然蓋醫院我們都了解不是難事雖然在蘭嶼確實是比較困難一點整個成本都很高還有發包的問題但接下來後續的這些醫護人員的進駐我想也期待說可以同步 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14729.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14731.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
讓大家了解我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14733.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14762.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
就是說預先的規劃的做法是什麼那個部長可不可以用一點點時間稍微因為我們現在規劃大概期程上會在差不多120年或121年左右會開幕營運那這段期間我們也會有人力的這個規劃包含公費生會陸陸續續會出來那我們就有公費生可以去協助另外也會結合當地的其他醫療資源所以有鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14762.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14775.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
哪幾家醫院馬街體系來做後送的資源等等那搭配健保的IDS計畫也會有跟當地的衛生所就是有公費生那加上我們也會分配給這個蘭嶼醫院這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14778.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14794.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
好 所以我們就是說要告訴大家的是說除了醫院硬體的這個興建之外同時在我們推動這個蘭嶼醫院興建的同時其實衛福部也早就同步規劃了整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14795.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14810.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
希望爭取這一家醫院的有別於其他的醫院不是以自負盈虧的方式來進行那麼是以公醫的使命來興建這一家醫院那麼人力上都是以公職人員就是正職的人員來編列這個員額這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14813.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14827.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
好謝謝部長我想這個是一個很重要的概念那我也謝謝部長跟衛福部全體同仁對於我們這個離島的這個醫療的關心跟投注好感謝你們謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14836.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14836.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 本 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14860.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14868.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
在本會議室繼續審查職業安全衛生法部分條文修正查案等31案那非法案相關列席人員請先離席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14884.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14889.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15557.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15557.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
19824.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
19853.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
好 現在繼續開會介紹出席委員及列席官員那第一位是王玉敏 王委員再來楊耀 楊委員還有王振旭 王委員還有我們出席的官員是勞動部次長李建宏謝謝治安署署長林益堂治安署 對不起勞動及職業安全衛生所衛生研究所所長王厚誠謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
19855.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
19877.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
勞動條件及就業評審司司長黃吉亞勞動法務司司長傅費芝公務人員保障暨培訓委員會安衛防護處處長蔡憲維謝謝行政院公務工程委員會工程管理處檢任計政江鵬行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處專門委員曾一鈞謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
19883.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
19907.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
再來是內政部國土管理署都市基礎工程組檢任計政 王錫明好 謝謝消防署綜合規劃組 綜合企劃組檢任視察 溫惠周好 謝謝國防部資源規劃師 科技企劃處副處長 薛聖吉 謝謝教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員 廖雙慶 謝謝國情署專門委員 林如龍 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
19913.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
19938.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
清華署組長吳振華謝謝水利署副組長吳明坤國營事業管理師科長王啟明產業園區管理局副組長蘇鴻毅謝謝中小企業署副組長林玉琦謝謝交通部中規師檢任秘書楊茂森謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
19942.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
19957.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
衛務部國健署社區健康組研究員麥陽俊心理健康師副市長鄭淑欣數位發展部數位產業署檢驗視察黃國元 法務部參事汪南君 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
19967.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
19995.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
好繼續審查職業安全衛生法部門條文修正草案等31案那至院盤第40條以下條文及保有條文皆須繼續審查一樣以先行政院提案條次為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見好現在處理院盤第40條然後出席委員有王振興委員有提案林淑雲委員要不然再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
19999.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
20025.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
劉建國委員還有好 這幾位委員也有一併提第四條的草案好 請行政單位先做說明好 勞動部報告有關第四十條的部分在場委員 劉建國委員跟王正訓委員的提案都跟行政院版一致所以我們建議照行政院的提案通過來 請楊耀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
20028.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
20042.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
因為還有其他的委員的提案呢就是我也一併表達一下我的意見我當然是支持院版的意見不過我看其他委員大概有 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
20043.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
20059.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
有一些是法定刑規定在最低法定刑在6個月以上我覺得這個就是可能不必要就讓法官做裁量有的把死亡人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
20062.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
20063.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
所以你意思是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
20087.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
20092.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
第四條依照行政院的草案來通過謝謝繼續處理行政院所提第41條草案那委員王正旭劉建國還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
20115.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
20142.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
有初期我們才宣讀啦 剛剛也特別 昨天開會的時候就有講了有王玉美委員所提的修正動議第九案好 請行政機關表示意見好 老東部說明有關在場委員 劉建國委員 王昇迅委員的提案都是跟行政院版相同所以建議照行政院版 行政院提案通過不是啦 41條還有修正動議啊對啊 有修正動議啊 我剛有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
20144.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
20163.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
好 修正動議的部分我講一下這個部分呢原來行政院版的這個可能會讓那個有一些移動或破壞現場的人呢他就免除這個刑法但是呢對於那種故意違反的或者是比較重大的我覺得這樣子其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
20165 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
20187.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
有太過於寬鬆之餘 所以我的修正動議裡面呢就是建議這個還是得要修回來 特別針對故意違反第37條第4項的規定未經許可而移動或破壞現場那一樣還是要納入這個刑法的規範 以上來 請署長表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
20188.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
20194.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
就王玉明委員提案的部分確實我們在這一次的有關於這個違反這個37條第4項這個非經檢察機構許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
20200.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
20227.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
移動或破壞現場的話我們是從刑責移到這個行政法那目前在43條是有疑列的那不過委員這邊有考慮到說如果是這個故意違反的部分是不是應該要維持這個刑事法所以我們是同意這個修正動議的這個提案好你就同意了對不起來參事要表示意見的他第一次主動出手各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
20228.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
20231.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
楊委員請坐下好不好那個汪先生要講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
20240.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
20259.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
觀眾是表示意見來謝謝主席各位委員各位先進大家好法務部在這邊發言我們可以理解那個王委員您的修正動議還有勞動部這邊的意見但是我想就法制面來講因為我們本來的現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
20261.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
20280.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
其实它就是处罚故意了因为我们的条文来看除非你有定过失它才会处罚过失如果没有定基本上就算没有写故意我们的条文这样定它就是包含故意了所以如果我们在这里加个故意其实跟现行条文是没有差别的 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
20281.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
20300.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
好那以上那如果说现在其实我们原来的报告里面书面报告也是支持院版因为考量原来的状况像这样的状况如果改成行政法的话那如果他因为我们这条的目的本来就是为了保全现场的证据 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
20301.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
20325.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那保全现场证据如果真的有被破坏其实我们刑法的165条是有湮灭隐匿证据的那个条文是可以处理的是165条我们如果是其实是可以相应可以处理假设真的他有破坏现场就是有隐匿他的目的是为了隐匿湮灭证据的这种破坏现场的情形其实我们165条也是可以处理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
20325.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
20347.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
但是原来原来的治安法他其实本来就有存在对对他本来就那是后来原版的版本把它拿掉啊我现在是把它就是加回来就是特别针对这一种就是故意的行为因为你们原来的这种修法你会让一些他可能就是刻意本来的治安法是有的这个参事你们了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
20348.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
20368.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
原來版本有那現在是勞動部送出來版本把它拿掉行政版是把它拿掉那我現在修正動議是我覺得不應該拿掉就是事實上在職安法裡面如果發生重大的職災這個他刻意去湮滅那個證據故意去移動現場就是讓你沒有辦法還原真正的事實這個其實還蠻知識體大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
20371.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
20399.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
因为很多的你后面的那个诉讼或者是官司他通通都推到是你劳工个人的操作不当或不慎那你如果是基于要维护这个劳工的利益的话原来的旧有的版本本来就是存在的是后来行政院版本讨论的时候把它拿掉那我认为原来是OK的然后但是呢原来可能他的那个范围会太大就针对这种故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
20399.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
20406.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我们特别在这个第四项这边就是在写健怀那这个我觉得没有什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
20407.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
20433.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
因為你原來的治安法就有我不知道法務部有沒有弄清楚原來的治安法早就有那如果按照你講的就是說刑法這邊已經可以處理的話那為什麼原來的治安法他本來就有這樣的規定報告委員我的意思是說如果我們現在要處罰故意的話其實我們現在條文就是可以就不用加故意因為加故意跟沒有加故意在條文的意思上是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
20435.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
20453.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我的重点是这个那因为我主要是保全证据这块我如果委员还有一亿就说如果把它移到行政法我觉得没有处罚到那这样子你觉得有些恶意是破坏现场隐匿湮灭证据这种状况那我的意思是说我们刑法刑法165其实也是可以处理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
20454.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
20472.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那保全證據最終就是希望說能夠維持能夠還原好那我看他們的立法說明裡面好像針對這一點說是因為有有一個解決的方法那是不是可以請那個主管機關就你們對於這一點你們當初要修的是不是可以再說一下因為你們說因為現在是數位 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
20475.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
20498.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
取证可以还原我好像有看到你们这一点的说明是不是可以这一点可以解释一下那就法制面我是提出我刚刚的建议那基本上这还是政策决定我们都尊重看是要弄成行政法还是要弄还是要回归刑法其实法务部都尊重只是说我的意思是说加故意在这里其实没有差别在法治体力上来说以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
20500.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
20522.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
好 那個署長要不要補充說明一下針對剛剛參事所講的其實在行政院版的時候是把原本是違反37條第4項是放在這個41條的刑事法的部分那這一次因為我們會移到這個43條的變行政法的部分是考量到 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
20523.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
20550.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
在現在目前的實務上剛剛這個參事提到的證據保全以我們的檢查實務來講基本上透過現在的檢查機關所提供的資料或是我們從現場所留存的這個相關的隱私資料等等或相關人的一個訪談大概我們可以知道說這個現場有被移動破壞那這個部分所以我們認為在現在的實務上基本上可以用這個行政法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
20551.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
20577.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那另外的考量是說因為過去在整個案件我統計我們移到這個司法機關大概有三分之二都沒有被起訴或這個還起訴或不起訴所以變成說移動或破壞現場基本上對僱主是完全沒有刻到任何的責任所以我們希望這一次是43條是我們這一次行政院版是有行政法的部分那委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
20578.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
20597.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
我想王委員是考慮到說有一些比較蓄意刻意故意的這個是涉及到這個犯罪行為的部分是不是可以保留到也有一些樣態是可以在41條用刑法來處理但是一般的案件我們還是會用43條的刑證法來裁罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
20600.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
20616.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
好這樣應該四三條就處理到剛剛你的單六部分了但是那個針對那種比較惡意的他會免處刑罰他是把原來這個刑罰的部分他那個直接拿掉所以我才會再提一個修正東西就是應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
20617.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
20635.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
加回來但加回來是針對這種故意就像剛剛署長講的就是你如果一般性的這種案件他按照行政他行政開罰就好但是對於這一種比較是故意而且重大去破壞現場的你就直接免除他刑法上面的責任這不太對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
20636.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
20665.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我剛剛聽參事講是違反那個內容他們以前就很弱以前他們移送的被處罰比例很低好嗎那你現在又把這個職安法裡面完全都不規範的情況底下你真的覺得法務部那邊他可能連起訴連理都不理他之前是這樣子他們送過去的案件高達三分之二是都不受理的那現在還要在這個法裡面直接把它拿掉那以後就通通都不受理這類的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
20665.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
20689.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那個就看檢察官要辦不辦啦對啊比較懶多一點的就說你根本職安法寫都沒有寫他怎麼會去引用另外一條說什麼要不要破壞證據不會所以我覺得這一個部分是如果我們認為這個職安法的修法我們對於這一種雇主他沒有善盡保護這個勞工的責任發生職災那他還想要去破壞現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
20691.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
20708.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
躲避責任然後要卸責給勞工這個我們是絕對不會允許的那之前就是看到我們的司法的怠惰我們司法起訴的比例非常非常的低啊甚至不受理啊那在這樣的情況底下你又倒退的你這一條整個通通都拿掉情況底下那 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
20709.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
20733.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
勞工的權益怎麼保障 僱主的責任你怎麼就責我是覺得應該是要再放回來這個沒有衝突嘛 這完全沒有衝突就是我們很多的立法律就是我如果覺得這個是重要因為這是職安法的修法 我們就是保障勞工那就是應該它原來的職安法本來就有是這次他們把它拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
20733.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
20742.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
本來的法我覺得很好啊你是保障勞工權益啊那怎麼會就是你不允許破壞現場啊怎麼會新修正的版本反而是倒退的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
20744.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
20770.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
好 那接下來等一下 陳清輝委員先舉手再來王委員 再來林委員 對 剛好聽到法務部參事的發言所以我是想跟參事確認說你說現在的條文是行政法嘛行政法的話是不是只要有責任能力不管是故意過失都會被處罰就像是交通這樣子因為如何避免剛王委員所提到的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
20772.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
20792.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
報告委員因為在這裡就是行政刑罰了所以他這裡的這裡的這樣的定的條文其實就就是處罰故意犯了在這個我們維持原條文如果要維持刑罰的話其實就不用加故意其實就維持原條文就可以是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
20796.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
20813.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
不是我的意思就都我們都尊重就是如果要改成行政法就是照院版如果大家同意要維持現行條文其實維持現行條文我們也尊重這個就是政策決定這樣子就是看委員們覺得說要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
20814.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
20833.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
再請王委員完之後 再請林委員再請行政機關統一答覆 好不好 抱歉 謝謝謝謝主席 因為這邊林委員是希望增加第四款 而且上面有故意兩個字嘛那當然是也讓大家知道說故意好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
20835.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
20852.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
是它的必要性如何還有如何能夠在透過原條文的處理之下能不能夠把這個爭議或者是爭點做一些適當的安排那如果我們在這個地方不加故意這兩個字會造成什麼影響這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
20853.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
20879.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
第二點就是如果把故意放進來那未來有任何在處理上這兩個字有沒有造成法條處理的一些造成的困難如果怎麼舉證什麼叫故意之類的相關的疑惑或者是疑慮這邊可不可以請參事再幫忙說明以上來請林委員好不好然後再從一答覆好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
20884.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
20909.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
我想因為這個條文主要是要處分這個37條第二項其實都已經叫做重大直災傷亡了重大的 這個是相對來講已經是相當的嚴重的那我要講這個是因為我上前一條我來不及講其實在這種狀況裡面韓國還訂了一個特別的法律叫重大災害處罰法 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
20910.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
20930.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
就是說韓國定了一個重災企業處罰法處理嚴重公安事故然後如果因為企業或工廠因疏於安全防護而發生重大災害導致員工受傷生病或死亡的話他是要把負責人和執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
20931.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
20946.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
要追究刑責的那最明顯的一個例子就是說這個去年有一個鋰電池的工廠這個爆炸他的代表被判一審被判了15年的重刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
20947.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
20973.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
那我們當然是說我們要這樣子嗎那我們也沒有一定要這樣子但是就是前一條裡面這41條我40條想說那我們總要一個最低的刑期吧那如果不這樣的話這一個地方41條裡面我已經許可但是我覺得王詠敏的講法可能我們要再思考一點說你說要故意然後才處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
20974.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
21003.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
可是你無從證明他故意反而處分不到會不會對這個就是我要講的事實上我認為原來的治安法不用放故意兩個字維持有刑法這個我是贊成的那是後來我們跟這個勞動部溝通然後他說他又增加了行政的部分所以這邊呢把它修正成是故意這個我也同意但是我不同意的是現在行政院版他是把刑法整個拿掉喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
21004.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
21024.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
你看喔他右邊這個是他第四款是完全沒有的所以我不同意啊他把原來的第四款是完全拿掉的這個我完全沒有辦法同意就等於說他破壞現場我們留著我們留著如果沒有大礙的話其實就照原條文留著可以啊可以就好了不要跟動他 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
21025.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
21043.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
都不要改啊 可以啊因為你加了故意兩個字反而可能會變成更可以啊但是現在行政院院版不可以他是把它拿掉的那我們是不是維持原條文的這個文字原條文的文字是什麼好 等一下現行條文有故意兩個字嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
21052.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
21072.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
來 請署長統一回應好不好 謝謝跟委員說明為什麼 不是拿掉是一列到43條改行政法就是罰還從3萬到150萬我們的這個當時的考量是這樣對雇主會比較有嚇阻的效果因為我可以直接開罰到150萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
21074.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
21102.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那如果留在刑法剛剛有跟委員報告以現行我們去統計有三分之二的司法單位是沒有起訴的或是還起訴所以這個對目前的這個違法的雇主是連一塊錢都沒有罰到所以我們希望是用行政法來處理那為什麼不兩軌並用我們現在就是兩軌並用兩軌並用如果文字一樣的話這個就要問法務部這樣子會不會文字都一樣這樣在體力上允不允許我們兩邊都放 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
21108.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
21124.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
不表示就是原来的原条文41条维持原来的原条文然后再增加43条那这样子有没有冲突原条文是在第二款对这样子可能我们要可能按比例原则可能要有一点区分 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
21126.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
21148.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
可能才有办法处理要不然这个样子这样子又有刑责又有行政法这样子一事不二罚的状况那要怎么去用他们有不二罚一个是刑责一个是行政法可是要怎么样的状况去用刑罚有怎么样状况去用行政法这个部分如果没有一点构成要件好故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
21157.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
21170.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
好吧 這樣好像也是可以啦可以啦好 故意 那就是故意故意的話就有刑責那無從證明故意就行政法這樣好像邏輯說得通啊 OK可以啊可以 你那個鐵麥坑說的你給我頭扣個點這都錄音的 但要會議記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
21188.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
21197.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
做著講究 依照王委員所提的修正動議來通過 可以了好 各位沒有意見我們就依照王委員所提的修正動議來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
21206.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
21220.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
但是沒有人說有了那個法律以後這個是整個工人這個連GDP多少以上然後還這麼多的人死傷這是國恥我們也應該要朝那個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
21224.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
21247.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
41條就是依照運營委員所提的修正同意來通過啦好那你們還是要注意43條這個這個內容有沒有我們繼續審查院版所提第43條草案那委員有提的是台灣民眾黨不在好還有委員有所提的是王振興委員林淑溫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
21250.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
21272.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
劉建國委是44條還有我這邊先看完還有修正動議劉委員所提的是第10案請行政機關先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
21273.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
21292.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
好 在場委員所提案的部分劉建國委員的部分是跟行政院版相同那王振旭委員提案的部分配合我們昨天在討論的時候在行政院版的部分在這個第15條之一增加第三項還有第26條 第27條 第27條之一第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
21299.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
21315.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
這個部分都有增加的一些我們在43條 王聖遜委員這邊有配合增加的一些罰則規定可以分別來針對工程業主的強化這個旅業管理跟原始業單位的成長管理責任的部分這個部分我們是同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
21316.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
21323.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那第二部分有關於離除氛圍提案的部分希望將這個罰還的目前是行政院版是3到150萬修正為5萬到這個300萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
21329.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
21350.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
的以下的罰環 那我們是考量到說行政院版的部分已經將現行的一個罰環上限提高到5倍 那這個下限的部分我們也考量到在目前國內大概都是中小微型企業為主 是不是這個罰環的下限可以維持 跟上限可以維持不變 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
21357.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
21384.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
來 另外有這個劉委員的修正動議部分我們是同意所以我們建議照委員王振旭等23人及劉建國委員修正動議提案通過所以剛剛講應該你們的草案也不是為此不變你們還是有修高這個華澤的對啊對啊你講什麼為此不變我聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
21385.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
21412.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
你講話好像怪怪的 好來行政黨委已經表示意見 其他委員有沒有什麼意見來 請王振興委員謝謝沙偉謝謝大家的支持我想因為裡面有很多的修正所以我們把它統整以後希望能夠讓它更周全 以上好 再請林淑穩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
21415.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
21430.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
現在刑責也是這樣子有限然後行政罰則也是這樣子都沒變事實上我們從實務面來看其實我們都知道是都沒有嚇阻的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
21431.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
21455.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
不太有嚇阻的作用所以我們才覺得說其實應該要更更達到拉高這個處罰然後達到嚇阻的作用然後讓我們的企業主其實應該更重視相關的職災職安這樣子那你們所值的理由認為不宜是什麼原因我剛才沒聽清楚抱歉那請次長再說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
21467.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
21495.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
從那個數據上顯示四十三條裁法的案件大概六十七八個都是有很嚴格的事業單位原本講因為確實中小企業裁法顯示也是這樣子那可是剛剛那個李主任委員講的也是如果真的要提高客服力的話其實我們也是可以支持把這個法管提高為五萬上到三萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
21497.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
21512.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
對啦 三萬變五萬其實是同樣意思啦我們老實說三萬變五萬其實一位一生就給他三百萬啦 五百萬啦都不可能啦那個出犯 甚至出犯還不一定咧現在還有行政法法咧還有情有可原 還有減半咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
21514.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
21540.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
行政法法不曉得第八條還是第幾條還可以減半耶這個還授予行政部門讓我們這些管理的作用法都失去了原來法律的作用啦我們這裡法律上略嫌都不好遇到一個行政法法他就給你減半啦實務面也都有發生過啦所以如果考量到這個根本就有這樣提高跟沒提高差不多多少應該是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
21555.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
21567.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
所以你的第一項就是要三萬改為五萬以上然後然後那個一百五千變成三百萬對不對就第一項那其他的其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
21575.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
21604.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
好各位請大家意見 這個條文第三條草案就是依照林書穩所提的第一項 這樣變動調整為五萬以上 三百萬元以下嘛然後再就是依照王振興跟劉建國所提的修正動議來通過王振興委員的提案修正動議 林書穩委員的提案這樣可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
21605.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
21625.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
好可以好那我們第43條就這樣處理來繼續來審查院辦所提第44案草案然後委員有王振旭委員林淑雯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
21636.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
21664.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
劉建國委員還有好就這樣我們併案一併來討論請行政機關先表示意見是目前在場委員的提案版本都跟行政院版相同所以建議照行政院提案通過好各位有沒有其他意見 沒有啦我們第44條草案就依照行政院所提的版本來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
21671.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
21693.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
繼續審查行政院所提第45條草案那委員有王志旭委員 林淑雯委員王育民委員還有修正動議有不在 還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議 我們一併來討論 請行政單位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
21695.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
21720.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
是目前我們這邊針對這個王振旭委員的部分提案的部分在行政院版的這個第一項第二款甄列有關違反第15條之一第三項的罰則部分因為可以強化這個對於這個工程業主的強化旅業管理的這個督促所以這個部分我們是建議可以參採這個委員的版本那針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
21723.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
21739.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
王玉明委員的部分提案的部分有提到這個剛剛我們不是這個提案違反這個三十九條第四項的罰則部分因為在現行的各主管機關他已依照這個行政程序法跟勞檢法勞動檢查法相關規定在處理這個人民的陳情案件不得洩漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
21740.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
21768.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
這個有關於申訴人勞工的身份所以而且在公務人員也有這個如未依這個保密規定來處理這個人民澄清案件會造成洩密的話不僅要負刑事責任還有民事跟相關行政責任就是比這個目前的行政法還更嚴謹更嚴厲所以這個部分針對第45條的部分我們建議照委員王振旭委員第23人提案以及劉建國委員的修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
21771.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
21799.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
好 各位委員有沒有其他意見要表達來請陳清威委員我想詢問一下您第二項有提到的所謂的性質可以舉例說明嗎就是依照不同性質才加重等等這個性質是怎麼比較這個職場委員這邊報告一下陳清威委員有在提一個修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
21804.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
21809.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
抱歉抱歉針對第45條黃委員再提個修正動議好謝謝第二項因為依照他的嚴重情節或者是事業規模這個都可以理解但是性質的話您指的是他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
21829.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
21852.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
他的事業的不同項目嗎可以舉例說明嗎因為我們在治安法裡面規模是指那個勞工人數的規模那性質就是他的風險他是製造業營造業或是一般的行業或是像醫療院所服務這個服務業等等那個性質是以我們依照業別來分有這個高風險中風險低風險風險程度來分 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
21858.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
21869.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
所以你的意思是說假使是高風險或是中度風險違反了你就會再加重像營造工程的話當然就會加重理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
21874.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
21897.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
還有其他主席不好意思 劉建國委員的修正動議部分裡面有特級會昨天有保留的一個22條之二要有一個修正動議所以這個部分可能在這個條次上會到時候會做一些聯動聯動所以這個部分特別提醒這個部分45條你是說針對22條之後那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
21900.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
21925.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
裡面有會相似會因為昨天有一條保留會相似上會會連動到所以先保留所以覺得我們先保留了你們調整的時候我們在第二天的時候再提出來好不好好好謝謝那本條文我們先就先行保留待第二天再討論好那基於審查院辦所提第46條草案那委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
21927.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
21937.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
也有提的是王振旭委員林淑雲委員還有劉建國委員是第48條王毓民委員是45條之一然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
21949.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
21977.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
好那我們請行政機關行政單位先來做說明目前委員所提案的部分除了部分有一些文字的差異大概方向上跟內容都跟行政院版一致所以這一條是第46條我們建議照行政院的行政院版提案通過第46條行政院的版本所提草案各位有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
21979.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
21996.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
如果沒有 那我們就依照行政院所提第46條草案來通過繼續審查行政院所提第48條草案那委員的部分有王振旭委員 林淑文委員 劉建國委員是46條林玉琴委員是第48條好 我們一併來討論 請行政單位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
22009.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
22037.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
是 剛剛提到的 早有提到的委員的提案基本上部分的條次不同但是這個內容都跟這個行政院版是相同所以我們建議48條是照行政院提案通過好第48條各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有那我們就依照行政院所提第48條草案來通過好 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
22039.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
22049.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
那繼續審查行政院所提第49條那委員王正旭 委員林淑芬還有委員劉建國所提49條好 我們一邊來討論請行政大會說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
22062.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
22077.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
是目前委員所提案的內容都跟行政院版一致所以第49條建議照行政院提案通過好各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就依照行政院所提第49條才能通過那繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
22087.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
22113.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
第50條是有兩位委員就不在現場 我們就不予不予採納然後繼續審查院版所提草案第51條然後委員有王振旭林淑芬劉建國好 我們就一併沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
22115.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
22126.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
好 王委員 王一鳴委員也有提這另外一條 對 另外一邊啦 對不起好 謝謝 好 那我們一邊來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
22142.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
22171.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
是 現在委員所提的版本 內容基本上跟行政院版都一致那我們第51條建議照行政院提案通過各位有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們第51條草案就依照行政院版本來通過繼續審查第51條之一另有王振興委員 林淑穩委員還有柳建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
22176.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
22198.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
好 就這樣 我們一邊來討論請行政單位說明目前委員所提案的版本跟行政院版的內容是相同所以第51條之一建議照行政院提案通過好 各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有 我們就依照行政院所提第51條之一的草案來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
22200.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
22227.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
繼續審查由委員提的52條人不在現場我們就不予採納還有繼續審查一樣是臺灣民眾黨提這個第55條因為不在現場我們就不予採納好好我們第一輪已經結束我們準備來進入進入第二輪要不要休息個五分鐘那裡面沒有啦我問人啦我沒問人啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
22229.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
22247.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
你們要精力一點嗎 需要嘛 他們說需要 好不好好 阿國軍盟你好不好 需要嗎你們要精力啦 你們要給他們精力一點嗎好啦 好啦 好啦 你們不要 他們不要 要緊一點 好十分鐘 五分鐘 十分鐘十分鐘啦 好 因為勞動部要求十分鐘 休息十分鐘整理一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
22250.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
22264.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
這樣子並案只要一條這樣一橫就要一條所以我們這次審了39因為還有一張嘛39張條次保留了4條123跟今天保留1條4條一共收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
22267.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
22269.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
沒有還沒有這個決議會討論17個附帶決議然後13個修正動力 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
23047.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
23064.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
現在開會那職業安全衛生法修正案第一輪共病案審查39條次那暨保留4條那總計13個修正動議所以我們現在就針對這保留的跟13個修正動議來繼續做討論現在就是第22條次 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
23071.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
23091.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
我們現在進行第22條之一 昨天保留的那個請我們的部會做說明跟委員說明 昨天22條之一的部分條文是 條文是沒有問題是在這個范雲委員提到的這個立法說明 昨天希望把這個部長昨天口頭上的說明的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
23092.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
23116.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
錄到這個說明那我們現在已經做一個文字的調整就是說我再念一次所稱自身心健康遭受危害不予需達到實質具體的傷害程度為必要包括形成明顯敵意或惡劣之職場情境造成勞工身心健康潛在危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
23117.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
23128.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
英文字就是hazard 昨天有提到是工作環境這個部分我們有打黃色底的這個部分這個文字那這個文字也有送給那個范雲委員辦公室這邊有確認嗎那其他委員有沒有意見玉敏委員有意見嗎沒有 那那個淑香委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
23151.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
23168.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
但是我一定要講因為從這裡從范雲委員昨天的版本然後我就去看這個校園霸凌就發現了這個校園霸凌真的是如果我們這個法過了以後校園霸凌的定義真的要改一下校園霸凌它是要導致這個身心這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
23170.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
23195.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
受傷而且還要造成還有那個環境怎麼樣兩個構成要件環境也要受影響然後身心也要具體受傷才可以所以他們那個他的門檻很高啊所以幸好我們昨天把他限縮在這裡那而且不以具體的受傷為要件這樣子是好的啦我是說從這裡來看校園霸凌那一環你們要去修一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
23196.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
23216.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
好那是不是如果沒有其他意見的話那我們就建議照剛才我們的好院的好意見通過建議照行政院提案通過那接下來22條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
23220.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
23245.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
請我們的部位做說明目前我們看到王玉民委員跟劉建國委員的這個針對四十二條之二的修正動議二十二不好意思二十二條之二的修正動議那這個部分我們行政機關這邊是同意照這個王玉民委員跟劉建國委員的修正意通過什麼二十二之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
23246.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
23269.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所以你現在是處理了一個是利益迴避啊然後一個是說違反準則要重新調查啊我剛才講的那些股票公開發行公司證交法第十四支五條那裡面還界定如果你你這裡的準你我們會定準則但是處理程序是交給事業單位自行訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
23271.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
23284.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
處理案申付程序由事業單位自行訂定在這種狀況裡面如果事業單位訂定了違反政交法第十四支五條的話那還那要不要受十四支五條去牽制 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
23286.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
23302.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
所以我再講一下因為很多人不知道這件事情我現在已經不是講母公司對子公司的這個支配和控制我現在發現說這個東西其實是在股票公開發行的公司都會產生的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
23303.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
23323.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
政交法十四支五條裡面第一項第四款講到涉及董事的自身的利害關係的事項通通要交給審計委員會去審議或者是要經他全而且還要經他全體成員二分之一以上同意還要經董事會決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
23325.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
23346.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
那現在會產生一個問題什麼叫做涉及董事自身利害關係的事項如果望聞生意他最廣泛的就是跟董事有關的只要董事霸凌也是這樣就是要交給審計委員會然後再提交董事會同意這個是這樣子但是法院上一般通案上的見解是講 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
23347.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
23366.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
直接增加或减损直接就是那个会议的开会对董事个人具体的权利义务关系开完会以后会产生变动的权利义务关系会产生变动的才叫做涉及董事的自身的利害关系的事项 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
23367.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
23385.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
那我现在要讲这个是说如果照我们的准则公司定了一个处理霸凌的这个程序或者是这个人员组成的规范那要不要强制要符合14支5条政交法要不要强制 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
23385.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
23400.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那你准則要不要定那如果我們是特別法我們為什麼還要在那裡大家都知道公司治理不是只有母公司對子公司一般股票公開發行公司很容易有公司治理上 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
23404.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
23419.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
這個權力上的爭執第一個審計委員會如果不做成決議擱置在那裡或者是他做成決議到董事會還要決議董事會不決議或者是這個調查結果他們不認同要叫你再重啟調查那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
23420.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
23445.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
所以这个事情我们在这里讲说你要解决这个事情是不无可能啊全台湾只要是股票公开发行的公司通通都会遇到这个问题啊所以我才说那我们要把我们职安法的特别法的属性要标示出来啊如果你没有排除政交法十四支五条的适用你至少要把职安法特别法 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
23446.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
23472.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
比他们金融监管的这个政交法还要更上位的话没有标示出来那我们在法律上就没完没了我们整个霸凌的处理程序可能要搁在那里变成角力了如果变成一个角力权力斗争的角力那也是一件麻烦的事情所以一般这个东西 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
23473.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
23489.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
你調查結果出來他們開會有直接減損或直接增加董事自身的權利事項嗎沒有嘛又不是說董事自身直接增加他的權利事項我要董事給我加薪我要加薪送審紀委員會去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
23491.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
23508.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
这个董事做了什么事情我不准他来开会送审计委员会开会这叫直接增加或减损这个董事个人的具体的权利义务涉及到他个人在公司里面的权利义务的变动才需要符合这个政交法14支5条 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
23509.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
23529.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
但是如果大家大聲說這只是法院的一般通案間接但廣義的來講跟我董事我董事霸凌別人這個就要送審計委員會那怎麼辦沒完沒了所以我們才在這裡說要解決這個問題的話是不是我們要至少要把我們特別法要標示出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
23530.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
23559.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
只要符合我們職安法的這個你勞動部定的準則定出來的處理事項通通都是照這個事項來辦就可以了不需要再去跑審計委員會不需要再經董事會決議萬一董事會說你這個調查不公給我重新調查怎麼辦萬一審計委員會說你這個這樣講法要改你回去重新調查那你怎麼辦所以不能卡在這裡也不能這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
23561.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
23582.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
所以這個事情我認為他不是個案他絕對是未來的通案大家都想到你是覺得很簡單的職場這樣子一個處理的問題事實上職場的樣態很多啦這個事情要解決沒有解決剛才才溝通過然後你就說要照都沒有處理這個就要通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
23590.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
23602.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
這條22條之二我覺得也是蠻關鍵性的條文主要是那個調查的部分那我要先肯定勞動部他願意參採這個委員的意見當時我就主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
23603.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
23630.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
这个调查小组这个外聘成员比例不得少于二分之一他们原本是放在执法的那他现在同意可以拿到母法这一点要肯定因为我们可以看到之前劳动部自己发生的这个职场霸凌事件第一时间第一次调查的时候他其实并没有采取多数的外聘的委员那这个红部长上台之后再重启调查重启调查之后 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
23631.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
23654.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
用了外部的委員然後也做出了更客觀的調查報告所以我覺得這個其實是蠻關鍵的那原來在我的版本裡面呢其實還有提到說如果是政府機關的話最高負責人的時候調查小組成員應該要全部外聘因為他權力很大嘛如果你在用機關裡面所屬的人員也沒有人敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
23655.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
23676.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
敢表示意見呢那這個部分因為現在是沒有放進來那剛剛這個來溝通的時候是有說只要是政府機關我們一定都會是就通通都會是外聘那你那個你那個是在哪一個條文裡面還是你應該要在放在立法書22-3有在寫字嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
23679.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
23704.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
因為我原來的我原來也是放在22-3的裡面我有這個部分有寫嗎對不對你們的版本有有嗎好像沒有啊有放入立法說明嗎對啊我就說沒有啊那所以我要求應該要放進去好不好這個其實是蠻重要的避免官官相互的的一個一個提醒好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
23706.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
23723.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
好 那請回應是 針對林委員的部分確實我們剛剛沒有回應到委員這邊剛剛跟我們溝通的時候特別提到要我們注意到這樣的一個情形就是照這個政交法第十四支五條的第四款這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
23724.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
23746.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
涉及到董事自身利害關係之事項那這個部分我想剛剛委員有點醒我們就是說未來相關的類似的這樣的一個職場霸凌的調查處理案件當然要優先適用本法所以這個部分就是排除其他法律這個部分是不是同意我們在立法說明裡面去做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
23750.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
23777.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
你一直說立法說明欄你要排除其他法律的適用沒有母法這樣子行嗎不用不需要法律保留原則嗎你要排除別人的法律你只放那個立法說明欄母法條文沒有這些文字怎麼可能這個不是影響到人民的權這是排除其他法律沒有放在母法怎麼可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
23778.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
23803.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
應該是講說如果其他法律應該是講說相對其他法律規範本法這個有優先適用優先適用本法之規定類似這樣放在母法那你要舉例舉例你再放在這個立法說明欄在母法的在文字裡面一定要有我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
23805.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
23822.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
如果與其他法律有這個也不是漢格反正要優先適用本法那要看要怎麼文字你要排除其他法律適用怎麼可以不在母法文字裡面放進去這太愉悅了 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
23824.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
23833.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
來請部長回應因為我們沒有非常熟悉那個政教法14.5可不可以請法務部確認一下那個法效 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
23840.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
23859.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
不是 我們在這裡第一個要優先確定我們是不是特別法我們相對其他的這個金融監督的或是其他這個商業法規法律上的規定的我們是不是特別法特別法本來就優先 它的優先性要被標示出來那麥工 你要麥工講 對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
23866.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
23888.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
跟主席跟各位委員報告因為可以理解那個委員考慮的那個點但是這個可能那個是每個個案可能都不一樣的狀況這個要怎麼樣去認定這個不是不要談個案這個完全跟個案無關這個只要是股票公開發行公司通通都會適用證交法應該經管會要來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
23894.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
23920.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
但是沒關係我們就不是這樣子我們都不用管政交法我只是舉這個例子但我的意思是說我們要把與其他法律有漢格或是抵觸或者是衝突的我們要標示出職安法是霸凌這個處理的這個最優先適用這個法律的屬性要標示出來就好了這個文字要出來啊本來也就是這樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
23920.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
23946.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
來 請部長回應因為現在金管會沒有在現場我不是那麼趕一下子就把這樣子的文字直接落在魔法裡面我是建議這一條可以先通過你講的那個不見得要放在這一條這個一定是在這裡的啦這條嗎 你剛剛不是說在某一個地方可以去揭露沒有沒有 這一定是在這裡因為這裡在講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
23950.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
23960.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
處理這裡是在講第一之一是講定義第二是講處理的程序而處理的程序就是會涉及到證交法裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
23962.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
23982.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
14支5條的跟他漢格的地方紫安法要優先你要的是優先反正涉及霸凌事件者一律以本法最優先適用本法規範為最優先適用我的意思是說因為現在因為這個文字涉及到政交法所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
23983.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
24008.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
如果是写在这个没有啦我们这个文字没有涉及到政教法我们的法律里面母法里面不会写到政教法这样的字眼那刚刚他那个是立法说明栏啦他刚刚那个是立法说明栏林委员你要的效果是说任何的霸凌事就是职场霸凌事件就是要优先适用职安法的霸凌专章 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
24009.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
24031.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
來處理不能就是其他有其他是在凌駕這個之上的那這個我覺得跟22條之二是不是放在這邊不一定妳要的是那個效果我們在講的就是處理程序因為正教法14之五談的就是程序再來就是說我要請教就是說我們這個最後一項本來的最後一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
24032.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
24061.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
現在是倒數第二項你就是說這個一定規模的這個企業應該訂出教育訓練 申訴管道 處理程序這些需不需要框定他要報目的事業主管機關報那個地方政府報備否則的話今天報的說我的規定是這樣子明天再改改的變這樣子然後都不用報到地方政府然後他隨便他改來改去 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
24063.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
24089.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
就是他在調查你知道我們如果最高負責人去涉及霸凌是地方政府調查那地方政府我們訂了這個處理程序了這個是第三款22-3啦22-2是講這個只要不是最高負責人一般公司裡面遇到的我們就交給企業自行去處理和調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
24089.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
24119.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
而企業處理調查是依據他們本來就必須要訂定的這一個調查處理程序去調查還有申付等等程序那這個程序一個企業會不會改來改去不可能那需不需要訂出來以後要不要送到地方政府去備查以免發生爭執我的版本是這樣子沒有我們7月又開了又改了 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
24120.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
24131.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
就該來該去怎麼想也不可能會有這樣的狀況要不要送地方政府備查因為你只是叫他自己訂自己管 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
24132.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
24149.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
是 跟委員說明那這個部分它怎麼訂還是要依照我們所發布的準則所以它的再怎麼改內部再怎麼修它還是要依照準則裡面所規定的事項去訂那如果沒有依照準則在申訴案或是它我們去勞檢發現的話它就違反規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
24151.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
24163.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
有可能在比例上會調整或者是說代表上要調整他還是符合準則但是他是變動來變動去的但是他會有可能會因此產生增值 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
24165.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
24194.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
这个在比较大的公司可能都因为都是比较大的公司可能会因为就算报地方政府他也可以改那所以意思是说基本上就会会有一个准则那他定这些教育训练等等等这些事情该定可是他还是要符合准则他如果不符合准则的话就可以开罚所以抓的那个管制点或者是管理点基本上是在准则上不一定是抓在一定要报备因为他报备他也可以改啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
24194.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
24216.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
好吧隨便這個我就不堅持但是我剛剛講的是說我們這個法特別法要優先適用然後其他法律不可以不可以我的意思是說你不可我們要盡量讓這個事情越單純越好不要在那裡到時候變成吵架沒有辦法有一個調查結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
24219.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
24247.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
我跟那個主席還有委員報告就我的了解14條政交法14條之五的第一項的第四款涉及董事自身利害關係事項的確有可能是董事是霸凌的行為人到時候公司對他的處置是有可能是要經過審計委員會屬於他的自身利害事項譬如說他可能降職 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
24248.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
24268.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
可能會減少報酬這些都是有可能的但是呢因為處理職場霸凌這一件事情這可能有兩個層面因為有的董事他有負責人的身份如果他有負責人的身份的話這個霸凌已經外部化所以地方政府處理的這個調查結果報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
24272.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
24291.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
絕對優先於公司的處理程序這沒有問題已經外部那如果這個董事不是最高負責人在他的內部處理的時候因為我們的霸凌專章有特別的規定因為大家可以看到14條之五自身利害事項是一個很籠統的規定是個範圍不確定一定要到 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
24294.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
24319.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
他這個董事個案的情況的時候才會提審計委員會所以在我們霸凌專章有特別規定的時候他沒有為一個很籠統具體特定的規定的時候一定是優先適用於我們職業安全衛生法的22條之一之二這個部分我覺得應該是我們是不是可以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
24320.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
24349.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
林委員同意我們 我們放在這個說明欄也不只十四條不是啊不是十四條之五不是啊你都覺得是這樣子就會導致這樣子他們沒有規定對於所謂的自身 董事自身的權利這個利害關係事項他沒有規定就是就是照我們的不會 那晚假沒有一個公司 上市公司要股票發行公開發行公司是怎樣常常都要晚來晚去 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
24350.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
24357.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
而且你講對了但是也講錯了一部分這個只是一個調查結果他會不會這樣子減少報酬並不是由這個調查結果來決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
24362.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
24387.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
調查結果出來後他內部要怎麼懲處他還要另外去開董事會另外開董事會那一次才會決定他是不是降職或減少報酬而我們在談的是調查結果這一次調查結果這一次還也是要交給董事會和審計委員會去決定嗎那個是角力的場合所以我的意思是說我們應該是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
24389.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
24408.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
這個我不曉得你們也可以談談看你認為是應該要經董事會去決議嗎整個調查結果還是本來就要由經營經營的這個實際經營的這個行政部門自行去處理我們要先釐清這個吧一個公司的行政部門去處理調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
24410.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
24427.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
這個霸凌或者是應該要交給董事會去決議調查怎麼調查這個要思考吧這個已經不是個案這絕對是制度面的問題但是個案上也已經有發生問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
24429.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
24446.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
我跟委員報告就是企業他在處理這個霸凌申訴事件的時候他一定會依照我們的授權的辦法他會先有一個處理霸凌的流程這個流程也一定可能在公司上面他也會報他的董事會或相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
24447.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
24465.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
全責機關通過所以這個流程董事會應該都是認可的啦的確是像林委員講的涉及到這個董事自身利害關係的時候他有一個特別的機制去處理那在這個法裡面我們抓的就是你的處理流程符合我們的準則規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
24466.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
24481.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
但是我们有规定它期限因为对申诉案件来说雇主一定要及时处理也就是说只要你内部的流程不管你怎么做你必须要在期限内完成因为整个公司的治理也可能很复杂 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
24482.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
24504.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
他有其他的人事決策審計決策都有可能但是我們規範的就是說你只要在期限內處理而且沒有影響你原來調查小組的這個結論結果的話其他的部分依照你公司治理還有相關的金融法規或是你產業的特殊法規去處理那都沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
24505.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
24533.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
所以我們抓了你的處理的程序步驟你的調查成員還有你的處理時效還有應該注意到的一些原則所以我們處理的是這樣基本上會跟他們公司治理或是金融治理上面會有一些不一樣的地方但是有可能會涉及所以我們是覺得說林委員的考慮是有可能會涉及到的但基本上他一定要按照我們這個霸凌專章的流程來走 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
24537.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
24559.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
好來現在我們在講就是說人家這個調查的程序他顯然要經過董事會通過所以我們霸凌處理程序就是這樣子了但是呢他會他不會不一定會有調查結果為什麼因為執政交法就是這樣規定你要交給審計委員會二分之一同意然後還在報董事會通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
24562.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
24582.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
審計委員會 董事會通過才會有調查結果結果他們如果在那裡玩假拿來的調查結果沒有調查結果沒關係你說沒關係你們有處分現在是有處分不好啊 處分是罰公司可是你不會有調查結果當事人的權益 當事人的這個調查結果這個事實的發現誰要來保障他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
24587.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
24616.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
就是说你去处分他你怎么一直拖延都没有出来但我就是没有出来所以才说我们要的是什么我们要的是处罚他吗我们要的是要调查结果不是吗那个署分委员那有没有你建议怎么修订就我觉得我们可能会不会有一个具体的文字或者在老实说我很诚实的说我也不知道本来我的意思是说我们是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
24617.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
24636.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
職場霸凌就這個優先以本法規定優先這個是用本法規定這樣子或者是說排除排除其他法律我們要優先以這個處理程序為準這樣子不應該不應該受我們這個特別法為什麼還要讓這個金融 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
24637.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
24654.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
金融的這個法律然後來告訴我們說這個全部都要照我董事會 照我審計委員會調查審計委員會說這調查要改改的 還要重新調查現在其實還有一個法律還有一個法律我沒有講出來其實還有另外一個法律是 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
24657.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
24671.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
監控公司對母公司對子公司擁有絕對的監督權而且是義務而這個義務就是那你子公司的調查不算調查要母公司說了算其實是人家告訴我有這個規範我們都以為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
24673.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
24693.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
子公司是子公司 獨立的法人有一個調查報告母公司有一個母公司但是不 金控公司有特別規定特別規定是說金母公司對子公司有絕對的監督權利你連發一個新聞記者會的稿子都不可以全部都要經由我母公司所以你的調查報告不被採認 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
24695.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
24722.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
這個問題我其實我不想要講因為這是一個個案而且是一個正在玩gay的正在吵架的個案但是我是從這個個案我發現我們制度面我們如果迴避了這一個問題我們能想像的這個霸凌就是那樣子其實在大的公司案體制裡面的霸凌如果是真的在大家都這樣子玩下去有可能你只能處理的是那個受僱者啊受僱者之間的霸凌啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
24723.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
24745.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
真正的經營者 董事涉及的你是沒有辦法 沒辦法他的也有可能是這樣子所以在制度面要怎麼樣討論這個我覺得還可以 蠻可以討論的來 要保留還是要再討論一下可以啦 請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
24747.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
24768.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
我不知道說我們上次在那個霸凌定義的時候都有提到就是說事業單位人員利用職務或權勢關係等是不是都已經處理到就是平行跟各種什麼董監事會這部分以我來看的話應該有包含那因為剛剛大家討論到說這個到底是特別法或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
24769.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
24783.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
所謂的一般法我剛看了我們那個第一條他是說為終止職業災害為防止職業災害保障工作者安全及健康特制定本法其他法律有特別規定者從其規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
24785.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
24809.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
好然后第四条又说本法适用于各业但因事业规模性质及风险等因素中央主管机关得指定公告其适用本法之部分规定所以第四条算是给中央主管机关中央是劳动部很大的权利所以我是觉得好像不需要去关心到金融相关法规而是看中央主管机关的态度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
24810.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
24830.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
这是这一个那回来就是我们刚现在在讨论的22之2那我是不知道要不要保留那我一并把上次讲过的部分有些是跟别的委员一样就是申付里面我觉得如果要放进去的话那个申付程序中外部委员我的版本是主张不得少于三分之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
24830.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
24857.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
那还有被霸凌者的支持服务希望能够比照就是性别工作平等法谈到的资商法律咨询等那另外就是记录给当事人知悉因为我刚看到洪孟凯有一个附带决议那我也有一个附带决议那不知道这个部分就是劳动部会不会接受放到条文中那还是觉得要放在执法的话那我就会用附带决议那这些也请劳动部可以回应谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
24859.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
24884.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
謝謝范委員 范委員剛剛提的那個部分目前范委員的附帶決議這邊我們都同意接受就用附帶決議來處理那那個程序就是那個二分之一的部分呢申付的程序要不要入法的部分呢跟委員報告目前那個部分也是在執法處理我們會在執法裡面去去明定因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
24888.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
24909.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
經過范委員這樣講我突然想到第一條第一條講的是為了防止職災保障工作者安全健康特制定本法其他法律有特別規定者從其規定那這紫色的意思是什麼其他法律有規定者從其規定那是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
24912.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
24937.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
跟委員說明那個其他那個是過去以來在勞動部就有解釋我們大家立法的體力都會加這一句是安全衛生事項對 安全衛生事項有特別規定所以那你這一條要修啊安全衛生事項只有限定於安全衛生事項其他法律有特別規定則從其規定有時候我們立法體力就是要抄來抄去這樣就放進去你沒有限縮在安全衛生事項我也可以擴大解釋啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
24939.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
24952.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
其他法律有規定者我們的證交法有規定的話適用這個證交法規定雖然我們都覺得 理所當然一定是安全衛生事項可是那如果要廢是不一定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
24958.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
24975.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
我們現在在講的都是全部都適用這個職安衛法全部都是適用沒有問題現在講的是處理程序22之2我們就是卡在處理程序會跟其他的法律包括我剛剛講的金控業的特別法還包括政交法來 市長要回應來 副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
24980.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
25009.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
跟各位委員報告因為我們那個第一條除其他法律另有規定者從其規定目前就職業安全跟霸凌申訴的話只有公務人員保障法另有規定外我們就會優先適用公務人員保障法的規定其他的部分都會回到治安法的規定也就是說現在的行政法規可能會碰觸到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
25009.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
25037.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
情況很多 部分重疊啦但是因為我們的職業安全衛生事項除非他專門是規定職業安全衛生事項或者是霸凌申訴調查處理程序否則的話 職安法一定會在其他的法規面前的話是優先使用 有關於這個部分好 這樣咧要不先保留一次好 來 你要再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
25038.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
25055.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
沒有 我剛剛只是在想說那個林淑芬委員那個例子那我想到的是以性別工作平等法好像沒有聽過因為它是金融你知道相關可以就是母公司撤銷子公司它就是違反這個關於性別工作的這個特別的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
25056.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
25076.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
我想到的是你昨天講的校園霸凌更慘昨天你去看校園霸凌的那些處理的那個準則他還要構成兩個要件要變成環境有害還要變成這個身心要具體的受損才可以構成所以難道說教育部訂這樣子我們要跟著他們這樣訂嗎性平法沒有我們就不能有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
25079.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
25100.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
這個不是這樣講的啦新民法沒有我們就跟著沒有可是我剛剛講的不是問題嗎應該要討論的是我剛剛講的這種問題到底會不會成為問題他明明就是肯定就是會而要怎麼處理今天在修法我們遇見的問題都看到問題了而我們在這個方面就直接視而不見不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
25102.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
25117.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
然後到時候爭執了說你的法律就沒有規範這樣敢交代會過 對社會交代的過去嗎好啦 沒關係 那個休息分鐘啦因為這一條保留 45條會跟著保留好不好 所以你是不是 溝通一下好 謝謝 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
25126.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
25146.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
都已經審到了 談到了然後不願意面對 不願意處理要背歷史上 要背這個責任這已經發生了等一下在玩街 你已經要玩街啦不要說笑不笑 笑不笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
25172.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
25182.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
對 不然 因為我也不敢講一定有問題或一定沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
25196.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
25200.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
25212.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
25231.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
因為你要標示說我們的優先性哪有放在母法裡面這樣就退了 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
25236.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
25247.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
證交法就是證交所在處理的先問他一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
25263.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
25270.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
你問一下他有沒有窗口可以問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
25294.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
25321.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
這個如果如果這個只是證券交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
25420.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
25426.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
25453.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
25454.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
25539.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
25545.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
25592.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
25618.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
打你的電話好不好我們跟金管會連都不像不過金管會連會有那個保障法會有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
25621.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
25622.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
我們現在就是確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
25731.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
25735.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
25754.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
25771.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
25782.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
25790.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
但是没关系啊,因为这个,这个要参会,参会,参会,参会,参会,参会 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
25796.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
25811.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
好 好 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
25833.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
25836.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
25859.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
25888.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
但是他不同的跟我說這個昨天都已經先送到我家了但是我原本看起來他還沒有發展對對拿到他產品就是他的一陣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
25900.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
25906.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
25918.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
25940.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
相關規定的規定 一定的地圖對 如果有違反法律規範的相關規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定我們會再查一下 如果不是他規定的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
25947.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
25966.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
他是說其他法律剛剛那句話怎麼講福金融監管相關法律福金融監管相關不是不是不是你要寫在後面其他法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
25967.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
25987.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
有相關事項是規範的那個帽子戴在前面其他法律有相關事項是規範時第一個如拿下來法律有相關事項是規範時相關事項是規範時是規範時如規範時然後如後面如 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
25997.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
26023.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
金融監管相關法律金融規範相關法規然後您優先適用本法規定這樣子對 這樣可以嗎對 這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
26033.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
26041.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
中間 中間的管理之間 整個 之間的霸凌 那容易啊不對 經營者要處理不容易的 總是的那個霸凌打老虎網 沒那麼容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
26112.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
26114.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
這樣子其實是沒有辦法解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
26117.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
26146.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
優先適用但是他不適用也不處理就只有罰公司罰公司又不是罰那個霸凌人家的股東董事加害者沒有被處分到加害者一樣不會被處罰他罰的是整個公司損及的是所有股東的權益又不是他個人所以其實這樣子其實真的是不太好 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
26154.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
26178.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
26182.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
26191.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
如果放鬆不喜歡就說誰喜歡我都不喜歡你是說你喜歡我啦我說你喜歡我我不是那種喜歡就別再換了 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
26195.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
26220.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
太壞了 處理性很差現在是不敢動了但是我覺得這應該講說 其他法律如果處理對 整個處理的程序 要講處理的程序有任何其他法律的錯誤還有這種小朋友有現實的話 應該用過研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
26225.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
26238.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
現在法律有相關規則規範還是優先使用法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
26250.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
26277.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
來 繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
26281.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
26284.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
請刑事單位在座說明22條之二怎麼修 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
26286.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
26314.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
是 剛剛休息時間跟委員溝通現在是條文沒有修是在這個第二二十一章的章的說明章的說明欄裡面增加第六項文字是針對適用本法職場霸凌事件之申訴調查處理程序及處置規定其他法律有相關事項之規範時如金融監管相關法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
26316.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
26332.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
應優先適用本法之規定第二章的章名裡面的立法說明裡面加註這些對不對是這樣嗎好對不對是第二章的章名 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
26336.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
26364.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
二十一章 不好意思 二十一章第二章之一啦第二章之一的章名說明欄裡面加上第六項對不對是好那各位有沒有其他意見汪參事可以嗎我可以留下一點歷史紀錄就好了嗎留啊留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
26365.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
26388.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
我的發言是這樣子的因為最後這個狀況可能會變成說這些霸凌事件如果公司內大公司裡面要處分一個中階的管理員對勞工對其他職員的這個霸凌是很容易的但如果涉及到股東就是所謂的董事他去這個霸凌其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
26390.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
26412.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
的受雇者的話這個處理上其實是真的很多的困難在那裡那這種狀況有可能就是說因為肇政交法14之5條的這個規範他會卡在這個審計委員會或是卡在董事會無法無法提出一個調查結果報告出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
26413.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
26438.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
那但是我們知道就是說我們的準則會定一個限期你要提出報告如果沒有限期提出報告要處分可是大家都知道這個處分處分的是事業單位所以那個霸凌別人的股東並不會得到處分那就對被霸凌的人要的是一個調查報告他可能也要不到他要的個人要的這個公平他得不到一個調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
26440.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
26452.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
但是因為大家的意見這樣子我是勉為其難只能暫時先暫時被迫接受你怎麼可以被迫接受洪部長這麼樣的惡詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
26464.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
26478.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
不然你講說你被迫接受這個這樣我跟各位報告各位林委員他當然有相關的一些經驗跟接受到一些訊息但有時候法律我們當立法者基本上可以修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
26480.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
26497.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
還有制定新華的過程裡面當然可以面面俱到一步到位是最好但是有時候坦白講也不是就可以馬上一觸即成那再來就是說相對的一些像盧霸凌就是我們的人權受到侵害的情況之下坦白說 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
26500.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
26519.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
我是覺得有相關的法律的規範基本上都足以來保障我們相關的這個受到權力侵害的這樣的一個對象那當然我們可以透過這次的展覽裡面去凸顯林淑穩委員所提的問題那當然是最好不過的然後當然她也接受可以在立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
26519.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
26543.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
在說明裡面去說優於這個金融相關的一些法規我覺得當然這是一個正向啦那基本上沒有寫他當人權受到侵害的情況之下這些原本在台灣的民主法制的國家裡面就應該是優先被保障的對象好 簡單就這樣說明 謝謝大家那這個就沒有問題我們就照這樣來通過了 好不好那22條之2的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
26545.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
26570.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
一樣是照建議第二十二條之二照王玉民委員及劉建國委員修正動議通過各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有那就照行政單位這樣的說明照王玉民委員所提的二十二條之二跟劉建國委員所提的修正動議通過繼續審來處理保留第二十二條之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
26578.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
26602.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
22條13現在沒有修正動議 建議照行政院提案通過原本沒有修正動議沒有嗎原本有修正動議沒有新的修正動議修2跟修6兩岸修6是都不在 那就沒有 對不起 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
26604.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
26629.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
好 22條之3就照行政院所提的草案來通過那我們繼續處理保留條文是第45條來 請說明是 第45條建議照王育民委員及劉建國委員修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
26630.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
26656.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
好 各位委員不好意思 還有一個王振旭等23人提案好就依照王振旭委員 還有王玉美委員還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議通過好 謝謝好那我們第二輪已經結束 已經處理完畢現在來處理附帶決議既有持久案請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
26657.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
26685.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
第一案要求勞動部應於附屬法規明確規定外部調查人員之利益迴避與倫理相關規範且對於事業單位所通報之職場霸凌案件應每年統計分析並對外公開結果令針對外部第三方不法侵害防治應與職安法相關附屬法規及指引強化雇主應採行措施以維護勞工身心健康提案人委員黃振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
26686.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
26690.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
連署人委員林月琴 劉建國第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
26691.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
26716.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
要求勞動部應檢討第22條授權訂定之執法除現有醫師 醫護人員 心理師 職能治療師及物理治療師外將公共衛生施納為勞工健康服務人員之範圍以強化事業單位之職場健康風險預防及勞工健康保障提案人委員王正旭 連署人委員林月琴 劉建國第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
26717.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
26731.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
要求勞動部對於事業單位通報之資訊應進行統計分析每年度並應公開相關統計分析結果提案人委員劉建國連署人委員王振旭 林月琴第四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
26732.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
26750.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
為避免調查流於刑事甚至形同資方主導要求勞動部與附屬法規明定外部調查人員應符合利益迴避之相關規定落實保障勞工權益提案人委員劉建國連署人委員王振旭 林月琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
26751.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
26771.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
第五案 為維護當事人之權益 原要求勞動部於附屬法規 應明定調查報告含事實認定之理由及處理結果 且應提供與當事人若僱主未提供 應依法禁與裁罰提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王振旭 林月琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
26772.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
26791.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
第六案 勞動部應立即盤點需配合增訂或修正之附屬法規與行政規則廣納有關機關、團體及學者、專家等各界意見緊迫進行相關法令之嚴定、刮鬍修並辦理修法說明會向各界廣為宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
26792.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
26820.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
原要求勞動部應於職安法公布後半年內完成相關附屬法規之修正或訂定提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王正旭 林月琴第七案 要求勞動部立即研議修正相關法令以保障勞工的病假權並提出書面報告送交立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王正旭 林月琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
26821.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
26835.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
第八案 要求勞動部一 承諾將於《勞動基準法》或相關法規中明定普通傷病假部分天數之保障機制並明文規範勞工因為普通傷害疾病或生理原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
26836.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
26857.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
必須治療或休養而請假時雇主不得對勞工有相應之不利之處分及待遇二 全面檢討現行勞工請假制度包括強化勞工請特休之保障以及禁止勞工因請特休而被雇主不利益對待的規範三 應於三個月內完成相關制度改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
26858.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
26876.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
整體評估並將具體改革方案包括修法草案方向或具體制度性改革措施向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員廖偉祥 陳昭芝 屠權及邱振軍 王育敏 洪孟凱第九案 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
26878.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
26895.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
要求中央主管机关于制定职业安全卫生法相关执法时应明定一、事业单位设置之职场霸凌调查小组外部委员不得少于全体成员二分之一且任意性别不得少于三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
26896.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
26919.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
二 針對不符調查結果之深附案件 應另行組成深附審查小組外部委員不得少於全體成員三分之二 且任意性別亦不得少於三分之一以避免原調查成員再度參與 確保審查之獨立性與公正性提案人 委員 劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
26920.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
26929.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
好 下一項等一下 等一下再宣讀那個委員的座上沒有那個互代決議趕快補齊好不好對啊 對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
26938.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
26959.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
好 繼續宣讀 趕快發下去好不好給委員要求中央主管機關應於相關規範中明定事業單位或直轄市縣市主管機關受理職場霸凌案件之協調調查申訴或申訴程序完成後應將調查報告含事實認定之理由及處理結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
26960.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
26979.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
以書面方式通知當事人含申訴人被申訴人及其所屬事業單位與雇主並明定該報告通知之期限確保當事人充分知悉結果並得以行使後續救濟權利提案人委員 劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
26983.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
27004.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
要求主管机关于研修相关执法时应参采性别平等工作法现行规范为基础明确列举雇主应采行之立即有效纠正及补救措施包括提供或转介咨询医疗心理諮商社会福利资源法律咨询调整工作内容或场所 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
27005.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
27019.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
協助提起申訴等項作為雇主處理職場霸凌事件之實質指引以提升制度可執行性及勞工保護成效提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第十二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
27020.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
27048.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
要求中央主管機關參照性別平等工作法第12條第5項之精神建立職場霸凌防制人才資料庫並規劃定期辦理職場霸凌防制專業人員訓練以提供各事業單位及地方主管機關調查人員之聆聘依據確保職場霸凌事件調查之公正性與專業性提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第13案 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
27049.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
27075.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
要求中央主管機關因依職業安全衛生法第22條之二條文授權於其指定網站每年主動公開職場霸凌案件統計資料並因依性別年齡層行業別事件性質處理進度及結果等項目分類統計與分析作為未來政策規劃與防治措施之依據提升制度透明度與社會信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
27076.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
27102.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第十四案要求勞動部應於修法後嚴厲相關配套措施包含提供事業單位職場霸凌處理之相關輔導及諮詢服務並擴大宣導及納入未來監督查核之重點對於中小企業之協助應考量其資源有限必要時應提供聘請外部調查人員相關補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
27103.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
27126.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
提案人委員劉建國 林淑芬 王振旭 范雲第十五案勞動部應立即盤點需配合增訂或修正之附屬法規與行政規則廣納有關機關團體及學者專家等各界意見緊速進行相關法令之嚴定 刮鬍修並辦理修法說明會向各界廣為宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
27127.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
27155.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
原要求勞動部應於職安法公布後半年內完成相關附屬法規之修正或訂定提案人委員林月琴連署人委員劉建國林淑芬第16案要求勞動部於4個月以內務必履行下列要求應立即以新訂法則為引全面修訂現行行政裁罰準則此基準應公開透明裁罰基準應必須具體規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
27157.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
27180.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
罰還額度與下列要素之對應關係以確保裁罰之比例原則與公正性勞動部應確保在執法或行政規則中明確訂定上訴標準方能使行政執法權責清晰有法可循並獲得社會公眾之信服提案人委員劉建國連署人委員王振旭陳昭芝 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
27181.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
27196.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
第十七案要求勞動部應於四個月內參酌各級公家機關利益迴避事項規範緊速訂定具體之執行準則及明確之利益迴避範圍以徹底保障當事人之權益並杜絕爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
27197.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
27226.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員王振旭 陳昭芝第十八案為有效推動所通過之修正條文要求勞動部應積極向行政院爭取必要之人力與經費並進行職安署之組織調整以強化我國職場安全健康體系建構安全且友善之工作環境提案人委員王振旭 連署人委員陳金輝 王育敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
27226.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
27254.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
第19案要求勞動部於附屬法規中除明定雇主應提供當事人書面調查報告外其內容並應在明其向中央主管機關指定網站通報之日期等相關資訊以利勞工之息提案人委員陳金輝 劉建國 王育敏 洪孟凱宣讀完畢好 謝謝19案宣讀完畢我們現在來處理第一案請問行政單位有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
27257.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
27283.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
行政單位你怎麼一直看這邊沒有意見 沒有意見 好很好委員有無意見如果沒有 那我們就照王知事委員所提的互代決議第一案來通過 謝謝繼續處理第二案 請問行政單位有意見沒有意見 沒有意見 委員有沒有其他意見沒有 那依照王知事委員所提的互代決議第二案來通過第三案請問行政單位有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
27284.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
27312.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
沒有意見好 各位委員有無意見沒有 那我們就照這個劉建國委員所提的附帶決議通過好 第四案請問行政單位有意見沒意見 遵照辦理好 那各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照提案委員劉建國所提的附帶決議通過好 照案通過第五案請問行政單位有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
27313.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
27337.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
沒有意見 尊重辦理 委員有無意見沒有 那我們就照提案委員所提的負債決議通過 照案通過好 第六案請問行政黨員有意見沒有意見 好那個 請問委員有意見沒有 那我們就照案通過第七案 請問行政黨員有意見沒有意見 我有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
27338.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
27343.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
我要自己修正 要求勞動部立即研議應於兩個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
27347.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
27372.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
好不好 我想這一件就是在特別提到第一個長榮的請假的事件第二個也很多的公衛有反應只要提出請假就不利於對待的情況持續發生甚至於有的還會拐個彎就是他可以提出請假但是又拼又明定不能前一天請病假這生病有這樣拼的也很奇怪所以是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
27375.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
27402.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
可以來同意兩個月內來立即來做出這樣的一個相關的一個法規的一個研議委員你現在想的那個文字是要求勞動部兩個月內研議修正相關法令是這樣嗎兩個月應該是可以可以嗎OK好謝謝好各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
27403.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
27416.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
好 那第七案就照這個就修正通過 好 謝謝因為這案你還是要趕啦 真的啦福爾社會的期待啦 謝謝第八案請問行政單位有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
27419.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
27444.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
第八案在那個那個原詞要求勞動部然後第一句 第一句話依承諾於勞動基準法或相關法規中逗號那這邊還是寫明定 那昨天其實有跟紅委員討論 他是同意改延議好 那各位有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照提案通過對 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
27448.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
27449.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
我們繼續處理第9案 請問行政單位有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
27470.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
27497.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
建議在第三項 第三段 職業安全衛生法目前第三段有職業安全法職業安全衛生法 文字修正就是歡迎委員所提的各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有 我們第九案就照所提的修正通過第十案沒有意見 沒有意見 來 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 沒有 那我們就照歡迎委員所提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
27499.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
27528.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
照案通過來第十一案沒有意見也沒有意見來各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過文字要做修正對不起因參載性別平等工作法不是性別工作平等法那我們就修正後通過第十二案沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
27529.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
27553.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
各位有沒有其他意見沒有就照樣通過第十三案性別第三段跟第四段第十二十二那我們就文字修正這個照理講他不應該發生這種錯這應該不是你的問題是你無聊的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
27559.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
27588.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
好那個木鳥死定了好我們就照文字章修正後通過好謝謝來繼續處理第13案沒有意見沒有意見各位有沒有其他意見沒有好我們就照案通過繼續處理第14案沒有意見各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過第15案沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
27589.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
27617.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就照案通過第十六案沒有意見好各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照案通過繼續處理第十七案沒有意見這針對利益迴避的事情有準則部長這四個月內可以吧應該沒問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
27619.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
27642.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
還是太久了跟委員報告因為剛剛的一個附帶決議我們相關附屬法規是在六個半年內要定出來所以現在配合附屬法規所以OK啦 越快越好嘛對不對好 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就召喚通過繼續處理第18案沒有意見各位有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就召喚通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
27643.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
27661.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
繼續處理第19案沒有意見各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就照案通過 謝謝其實部隊決議是大家都知道了不過還是一個紀錄的一個紀錄的一個確認啦那做一下決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
27672.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
27701.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
職業安全衛生法部分調整修正查案等31案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論本案時有留召集委員劉建國補充說明請問本案是否需交由黨團協商好不需要不需交由黨團協商那本法案如有援引條次法制用語調整授權議事人員調整那相關的立法說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
27702.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
27708.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
授權行政單位提供本日會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
27738.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
27752.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
好,現在上天 |