| IVOD_ID |
16985 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16985 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-29T08:32:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-29T17:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
08:57:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685021bb07685947ff6fe850adc8d4db2eb0aa126c40303dc27829485c9abe6bdfb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）
邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。
（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）
一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。
（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。
（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】
【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:36 - 17:30:00 |
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報告委員會出席委員人數10人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄 時間114年10月22日星期三9時1分至14時25分 地點群賢樓801會議室 出席委員陳委員招資等15人 |
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列席委員張委員齊凱等24人列席官員勞動部部長洪生翰等相關人員主席廖兆吉委員韋翔報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項審查委員分別擬具外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等6案 |
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本次會議經委員洪孟凱 陳昭芝代表臺灣民眾黨黨團羅廷偉 王育敏及王洪威說明提案指去由勞動部部長及交通部次長陳彥博說明後委員陳昭芝等26人提出質詢軍經勞動部部長 交通部次長經濟部商業發展署副署長劉雅娟及數位發展部數位產業署副署長黃雅平及各相關主管等即席答覆 |
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委員盧憲一、張志倫、林佩祥及圖權及所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三、外送平台管理及從業人員權益保障法草案等六案另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
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請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處那議事錄確定那本日議程為邀請環境部部長衛生福利部農業部經濟部教育部國防部就防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散強化全國出於去化問題以及後續防疫 |
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清消等作為提出專題報告並被質詢專題報告結束尋答結束後繼續審查行政院行情審議黨團委員分別凝聚職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案G21案以及審查委員 |
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分別凝聚職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案即時案現場現在介紹現在場委員及列席官員首先我們的陳昭之委員王振旭委員環境部部長彭啟明部長 |
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1855.58 |
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常務次長沈志修次長環境管理署副署長林左翔環境資源署副署長林建山水質保護師副師長儲文帝疾病管制署急性傳染病組組長楊靖惠 |
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1910.255 |
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抱歉還有一個副署長王德元農業部部長陳俊濟動植物防疫檢疫署主任秘書陳子偉畜牧師師長李怡謙畜產事業所所長黃正芳 |
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1934.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
獸醫研究所所長鄧明忠經濟部商業發展署組長蔡群毅產業發展署組長吳振華台灣糖業股份有限公司執行長溫元文債務國民及錢錢教育署組長邱禪 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1939.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1949.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
國防部後勤參謀次長是助理次長林鄭中接下來請環境部彭部長報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1957.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1981.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席還有各位委員還有我們農業部還有衛福部還有本部的各位的同仁有代表環境部來報告環境部因應非洲豬瘟的廚藥的去化的專案報告那我們主要是針對目前廚藥的處理然後清運然後到最後未來的珍珠還有我們未來的規劃進行跟大家說明首先我們目前根據環境部登記的資料大概有435個廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1982.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1995.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
其中有一個廠已經停職營業那435場裡面呢是餵養了47萬頭的一個豬廚育當成這個飼料在做使用那目前呢我國的這個國人每天的這個廚育的總量呢一天大概是2115萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2000.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2011.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
2115噸那一年大概是77萬噸那當中家戶廚藝大概是1384噸每天產出然後如果從事業就包含了餐廳或是團散等等的大概是731噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2013.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2026.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
其中我們家戶的廚餘大概有42.8%是到飼料化的一個程序裡面我們事業廚餘大多數都是到飼料化進行處理所以目前我們的所有的廚藝的總量大概是62.6%是到飼料化來餵豬來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2030.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2058.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那這個當中就要用高溫烹煮能夠才能夠去進行做飼料那其他的部分包括能源化肥料化或是其他都是本部在協助在處理的那其中目前生殖能廠大概有台中跟桃園各有一個那這當中就可以來進行這個能源化或是說未來的找一找渣的一個澆灌的工作那目前本部也積極在過去這幾年也協助了建置了高效能堆肥的設施然後來進行堆肥廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2059.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2076.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個已經有一些成品有一些好的案例出現了那另外一個未來要做的就是黑水芒這個其實是相當的未來很有潛力的事項因為那個蟲蟲把這個吃掉之後蟲蟲還可以再做多餘的多元的一個再利用所以這個是目前我們國內的廚藝的產出跟企劃的流向 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2078.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2101.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但是呢因為這次的這個非洲豬瘟我們無法來餵豬了所以基本上我們算出來我們現在盤點本部的可以掌握的廚餘的量能的設施是1620噸那跟的總量相比我們大概一天大概有495段的一個缺口所以目前的這個如這樣所是的確是有一個去化上的困難那未來要怎麼走呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2101.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2118.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們短時間現在因為這個疫情的期間這15天當中我們是以不改變民眾生活的習慣最主要的一個目標那還是由這個清潔隊或是養豬的業者協助來清運但是他必須送到指定的一個業者各個環保局指定的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2118.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2143.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那短期呢我們還是希望以肥料化、能源化為處理長期的話希望能夠有更好的一個永續發展的一個措施這個我們正在規劃當中那目前呢因為10月22號開始我接到陳部長的電話我們很快的就跟各縣市的環保局就召開應變會議首先呢第一個還是要源頭減量也就是說煮多少吃多少然後外出的時候吃多少點多少而且要瀝水減低這個廚餘的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2144.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2172.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第二個呢去化的原則我們還是以肥料化生殖化再利用還有黑水芒為主如果沒有辦法的話才是焚化掩埋來做處理那目前呢我們也經過一個公告的一個措施包含了我們公告的這個恢復清雲的措施等等而且呢也感謝農業部來補貼清雲業者有一些油脂的措施讓民眾感受到不要變化太大同時呢各個縣市呢也有完成指定的一個所謂的去化的一個場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2173.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2194.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那目前呢這個廚藝的接收在過去這幾天這一個多禮拜是完全的沒有問題的那有108處的地方包含了這個這幾個廠那目前呢我們有兩個作業因為這個國人最關心的是說如果進入這個掩埋廠去處理要怎麼去處理基本上我們有一個10乘10可以0.5公尺也就是說他一定要每日復土 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2194.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2210.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
不然的話會被蟲或是流浪犬等等所吃掉所以這個部分我們其實都有一個嚴密的規定那部分有些縣市他沒有照這個規定也經過我們稽查之後暫停使用甚至說用一個更好的方式來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2210.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2238.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那如果要進行堆肥的話也有一定的規定所以掩埋場裡面不能去做堆肥所以這個部分呢我們有一定的明確的一個規範在一開始的時候就跟各縣市環保局來做溝通那未來呢我們最重要的是確定這個廚藝的應變 清運的處理順暢所以本部呢在10月23就有頒布這個指引希望說不要到這個養豬場裡面所以目前呢這個都有經過每天的這個監控協調各個縣市環保局就一起來努力來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2238.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2262.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那另外一個呢 國人最關心的廚藥的申報系統目前呢 我們的稽查計畫呢過去從108年開始就有那我們從108年開始就建置這個系統那這個系統呢 是整個養豬場必須每天用溫度計量 然後拍照 然後上傳那上傳之後呢 我們本部有一套系統就可以及時來監督主席我們再多一分半到兩分鐘那目前呢 我們這個申註系統呢根據我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2264.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2285.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
過去的這個經營的情形的確我們的系統裡面是可以比對他那個照片拍如果是他以前拍的在上傳我們都可以抓得到出他拍攝的一個時間那我們每天都會看到這樣的一個清單縱使說他今天沒有烹煮也都必須去回傳所以這個部分已經有執行的一段時間也有一定的一個成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2286.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2308.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
但是呢其實還是有一些廠商他相對的比較弱勢比較沒有去好好的去做處理像這次發生這個恰新的畜牧場他的確在7月的時候在本部就有發現到他是屬於被我們關注到的主要關注到的一個廠商他就有申報一次我們也去函各縣市環保局要求他們要加強清查的頻率隔月就要再去集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2310.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2331.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
8月也一樣他沒有他是排名第一個也是沒有去申報所以我們也一樣同樣去發函給各縣市環保局要求他們來去做處理那當然啦這個像中區的話大概八十幾家的這個畜牧場他們同時都有一定的規範例如說平均的話兩個月或是如果說他沒有按照這樣的話每個月都要去稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2332.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2359.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那我们统计了过去一年养猪场的征组的这个上传的申报率大概呢有申报率如果每天传就九成以上大概有占了82.3%的确有一些大概6.2%是低于60%那这个里面呢有些是这个厨艺厂要转型或是没有在营业或是说如这次的这个恰新它的管理可能不是非常的好所以相对的就会比较低这个呢资料我们会作为未来可以改进的一个方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2359.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2383.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那我们精进的管理措施呢第一个是我们希望未来要加强稽查的一个频率如果还要处于在这个当成饲料的话第二个呢我们也目前在演绎当中也准备好了全面加装温度的探针还有监视器我们可以远端的透过AI的方式能够来监控哪里有问题而不是说按照目前的手动的方式来做处理那未来呢我们要如何进行去化呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2383.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2398.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我们认为其实源头减量才是最重要的所以第一个呢要加强食农的教育 洗食的运动因为洗食运动是本部跟农业部一起合作来推动的我们希望这个可以加大能够源头减量这是最重要的第二个呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2398.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2417.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
廚育的徵阻一定要全面更科學化我們希望用到更好的一個即時的偵測用AI來輔助能夠來馬上知道說誰沒有按照規定來徵阻另外一個我們目前也跟農業部積極在合作當中我們正在評估各國的先進的技術引入台灣我們也鼓勵民間產業的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2418.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2436.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
最後呢我們這些廚藝的去化還是把它當成這個循環經濟來處理因為廚藝的去化其實也涉及到各行各業他每天的產出跟去化的一個過程中我們希望用循環經濟的觀念能夠來創造資源化的價值以上報告 謝謝接下來我們請農業部的陳部長報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2448.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2469.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席 各位委員今天奉邀大院第11屆第4會及社會福利及環境衛生委員會來報告有關於防患非洲豬瘟疫情擴散強化全國除疫去化問題以及後續防疫清消等作為那以下我用簡報跟各位簡單的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2471.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2491.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們在二十一號開始啟動非洲豬村的一個緊急的應變作為大概分為兩個階段那第一階段的五天我們最主要的目的是透過快速的這個全國性的整個豬場的查訪去確認說這樣子的一個這個發育點除了台中以外在其他縣市是不是有發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2491.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2507.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那經過第一輪的五天我們可以很清楚的看到在台中市的部分除了這個案例確認點以外那它有相關的市市場的關聯場那這市市場關聯場幾乎都目前為止是是沒有特別的異樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2508.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2524.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那在全國的部分針對五千四百四十一場的一個畜牧場八家的化資場五十五家的土宅場還有相關的運輸車輛我們也做相關的一個消毒必要的時候我們也做PCR的一個檢測那到目前為止所有的檢測都是陰性 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2525.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2548.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那透過第一次的這樣的一個疫調那看起來這個整個的疫情是所在這個第一個案例並沒有對外擴散的一個跡象但是我們絕對不能掉以前行因為現在目前的疫調可還有一些必須釐清的部分特別在疫調裡面有一些追蹤那我們希望說透過更精準的疫調去了解這個案場 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2549.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2571.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他有可能關聯的這些場域那我也對這關聯的場域能夠做仔細的去查訪的時候才能夠去遏止病毒的可能擴散所以說我們在第二階段後續五天的一個防疫作為大概分為上個部分就是豬場 肉品市場跟屠宰場然後以及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2572.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2598.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
或市場那整個第二階段的防疫我們有一個相當的幾個精進作為我們大概用了四個策略包括分級查訪強化消毒精準疫調跟擴大追查那從這個圖你可以看得到我們在全國各縣市有一個統一的作為不管是在豬隻的畜牧場或者屠宰場肉餅市場以及人車的部分因為現在我們禁運禁載所以豬是不動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2598.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2624.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那可能的傳播鏈可能就是來自於車輛的部分或是人員的部分所以我們會針對這個部分更有效的去做分級的一個查訪那第二個部分還是鎖在台東市因為台東市現在是案例場的發生地所以我們除了這個案場本身的再次深入的去做檢視以外那也會再追蹤下一層的一個關聯場我們希望說透過這樣的一個檢視能夠有比較好的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2625.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2645.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
一個結果也讓我們目標是清零我們再度清零這是我們很明確的一個目標那不管在肉品市場我們把相關的指引都已經給了地方政府然後部分的這些指引我們也提供給豬農我們希望說豬農能夠趁這個機會落實他的生活安全的一個防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2646.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2663.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那同樣的就是為了讓可疑的這些病例能夠儘早的被確認所以我們最主要是針對非洲豬瘟提供了一個通報獎勵你只要早就發現這些可疑案例的時候經過經過地方政府的一些環保人員如果去採樣的話我們就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2664.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2690.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
提供五千塊的一個獎勵那邊境的防範作為還是持續要做不能說因為我們有案例而不做所以整個邊境的強化作為我們也是跨部會的不管從旅客的一個茶宴郵包快遞還有網路電商的部分我們都會持續透過跨部會的一個合作持續進行相關的一個作為然後並同時針對病毒的監測跟它的風險評估去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2692.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2700.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
很重要的是在這樣的一個前提之下在這個禁運的前提之下對於整個豬隻的這個產業鏈會受到不同程度的一個衝擊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2703.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2728.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
肉品特別在消費端的時候的肉品因為現在沒有新鮮的生鮮豬肉上市但是我們媒合了現在目前所有的庫存的國產豬肉大概可以滿足我們國內一個月的銷售然後我們也建立了一個平台讓這個豬肉需要這些豬肉的這些商家這個不提供給消費者一般買賣就是一些商家的部分我們會透過媒合那相關的媒合如果有需要的話農業部也會來進行來協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2731.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2757.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那更重要的是整個產業鏈會受到影響那越南在第一時間也只是在這個疫情的調查的過程中我們也要去研議因為這樣子的經營建載跟這樣子的廚餘養豬我們要提供相當的補助跟補償的一個還有輔導的作為所以我們在一級生產鏈的產業輔導我們會在一個禮拜那從現在算起大概在這個這一週我想我們會盡快來宣布那以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2759.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2780.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好謝謝陳部長那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告那本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2781.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2789.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智發言謝謝主席有請農業部部長陳部長那有請陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2804.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2829.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
部長根據農業部的統計數字你看上面的數字2018年我們為了防範非洲豬瘟病毒進入台灣所以啟動了邊境的查驗到6天前大概的數字是這樣已經查到9511件的違規品但是很重要的其中有997件是測出豬瘟是陽性的這個百分比是10.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2830.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2834.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
就是超過一成是帶有這個豬瘟病毒請問陳部長你認為這個比例高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2837.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2861.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我第一個要說明這個數據的來源我們相關的這個違規的部分就是說我們在邊境的時候有勸導如果他帶有一些肉製品的話他要棄置到垃圾桶不是說他夾帶以後我們抽驗到的所以我們這個數據可以顯示說國外的這些肉製品他帶有的非多豬瘟陽性特別是高風險區大概有10%部長您再說明那個類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2864.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2881.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個抽菸的母數啦但是豬瘟陽性的還是這個不管你要什麼對就是說從高風險區來的這些豬肉製品的確他呈現非洲豬瘟陽性的比例比較高謝謝部長說明但是我要強調就是說我覺得這個數字是高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2881.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2905.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
因為每天從中國或是東南亞的疫區疫區進來的貨物包裹數量非常龐大當然不可能密不通風這個我理解所以部長還是有可能有漏網之肉進入台灣那也有可能其中就不管多少比例它是帶有豬瘟的病毒那如果吃到人體內沒有吃完還是可能進入廚餘系統我這樣子推論OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2907.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2933.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
有這個可能 對 會進來嘛然後吃下去 吃不完就變成廚餘那我麻煩那個彭部長您一起上台 謝謝你那廚餘系統的運作雖然是由地方的這個清潔隊來分配到各個案場養豬場但是最近我看到新湖市一直在追蹤這廚餘來源可是廚餘來源跟這個疫情的起因其實關聯性還有待討論所以這個重點是說請問清潔隊有足夠的這個技術跟設備去辨識說廚餘內可不可能有 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2937.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2938.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
非洲豬瘟的病毒嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2939.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2954.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
他不可能我要跟委員說明這個必須要去強調廚餘本身它可能含有不同的一些包括危險包括病毒的部分但是我們進到廚餘養豬一定要落實徵主這個一定要強調我們講重點就不是在清潔分配或是廚餘來源就是在高溫徵主這個是重點那麼既然高溫徵主的條件是決定感染力的關鍵那我現在請教兩位部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2968.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2972.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那為什麼全台灣共同爭主的場合目前只有一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2973.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2998.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
共同徵組一家在苗栗為什麼只有一家呢我要跟委員報告這是兩件事情就是目前有434家的廚餘養豬的這些廠它這些廠大部分都是自己徵組大部分都自己徵組那有一些希望說能夠共同徵組現在總共有四個縣市九個案子在申請共同徵組那現在營運的就是苗栗縣的一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3000.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3025.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
謝謝部長的說明等一下我們稍微討論一下因為你如果讓他各自為政各自去做那你又要集合又有這個上傳不完整那這些都很耗費的人士那如果是共同爭主有一個做法也許是更有效率的但是對於我再提到就是說對於要不要禁止廚餘剛剛陳鵬部長有稍微報告一下未來的可能做法但是中央跟地方現在目前好像看法不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3026.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3040.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以中央要有責任來做解決嘛到底是要落實這個廚餘的爭取的步驟呢還是說未來想要禁止廚餘呢這個方向剛剛彭部長簡單講了一下那有更清楚的方向嗎我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3043.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3070.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
厨艺本身以农业部过去对于厨艺养猪的立场我们都是一致的我们就是持续的辅导这些厨艺养猪场能够转为飼料这是我们的一直以来的立场从过去大概107 108年的2000多场到现在434场就是说部长不反对就是使用厨艺啦对但是厨艺本身我一直强调厨艺本身你如果落实它的一个增足是我们了解它就是一个很好的一个料源 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3071.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3095.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
對 要飼料化的一個過程非常重要那我再請教 當然剛剛已經報告了就是台中市政府這次這個相關單位有點施責的問題我想我們目前不能說台中市總有施責或沒施責我們的疫調本身最重要的是追查我們的來源疫調的過程裡面最後疫調報告出來才會去看有哪一些破口那個是後續的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3097.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3114.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我再請問彭部長那過去沒有確實上傳的你有沒有罰則 到底有沒有因為有一次在爭論包委員是有的 他會違反廢棄法好 那我現在重點就是說那過去 未來當然一定會加緊這個加長這個集合或甚至罰則那已經過去了就算了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3114.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3135.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
包委員他其實就會再追溯去處罰嗎重點是在集合因為如果集合的話那個養豬的珍珠場的這個他就會積極去處理所以目前的重點是在這個集合讓他們都知道這是有罰則的那陳部長25日你接受採訪的時候表達廚藝是共同珍珠是環境部跟農業部共同負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3136.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3156.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
因為現在這個就是責任權責就是稍微要釐清一下但是我們也有看到這個環管署副署長對於權責劃分有不太一樣的說法當然他是把責任攬到自己身上他認為設立共同徵主的這個場是農業部的責任所以到底徵主場的設立是農業部還是環境部的責任呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3157.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3183.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我想一個珍珠廠它要興建第一個它的用地要取得要合法那用地的合法就是農業部的部分然後它本身的一些興辦事業因為它要用來做廚餘養豬的時候那興辦事業我們會經過農業部的審視是不是有這個必要那至於說後面的相關興建以後的這些環境衛生的污染是不是有防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3184.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3196.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那廚餘的處理就是你要接手環境部要接手就是我們的廚餘處理的再利用這個接手的問題這個就是很我想我們跟環境部我覺得我們的分工跟合作是絕對是沒問題的沒有說這是誰的部位 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3200.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3218.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
113年度的資料就是全台灣大概有42.8的加護魚儲剛剛你也報告相當高的數字仰賴飼料化來消化掉這是很大宗的處理方式那如果環境部有信心讓其他的去化管道剛剛你也稍微提了一下來消化大量的廚餘那麼中央就可以有更彈性的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3219.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3246.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那目前台灣是大概還沒有辦法完全不用廚餘來養豬啦那偏偏這次在廚餘的徵主系統當中這個徵主又是最重要的關鍵所以最重要的是你們的政策未來到底要繼續目前就使用廚餘然後加強集合然後等等還是說未來是往使用非廚餘不使用廚餘的方向走呢就是我可不可以先知道你們的規劃的方向我想我剛才講得非常清楚我們現在政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3248.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3265.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們一直持續輔導厨藝養豬場轉型然後因為在這個階段防疫是最優先的但是在防疫的過程中我們也看到了一些問題所以這些問題我們會滾動的檢討會在這個疫情比較能夠確認告一段落以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3266.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3277.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我想我們持續的在我們啟動這些事情以後其實7年了除於政策轉型還是說共同爭主的建設期其實都7年了我們從2000多場降到434場那我們剛剛也討論了共同爭主的有一些優點 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3283.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3311.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
然後再做分配然後你不要各個去讓他們各自為政最後我要請教一個非常重要的問題昨天的記者會那個疫情指揮中心的疫情會指出有一個化智三聯單數字是有異常的就是三聯單本來是同時開出的那請問甲聯跟丙聯的數字他說不一樣請問這個數字差了什麼呢因為甲聯是由司機來說乙聯也是由司機來說但司機是把他送到這個化智廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3313.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3329.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
乙聯最後是會留在最後的官方的數字丙聯就留在豬農這邊三個數字不一樣是很嚴重的事情請問甲跟丙差多少乙聯到底是跟甲一樣還是跟丙不一樣還是三個都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3330.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3350.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個很嚴重的事情我覺得委員說得非常正確三年單是要一致的但是我們發現說三年單的數字不一致三年單裡面分給豬農給化製廠還有給司機以後轉交給可能地方政府最後是官方數字的依據對 這三個不一樣的時候就應該去釐清我可以知道部長哪一個現在比較像嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3352.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3367.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
給官方的東西乙聯到底現在是跟甲比較像我現在因為在整個議調有不同的單據那不同單據有不同的樣態所以這個部分我們都會更清楚的理清這個很關鍵 這涉及這個我了解 我想我們議調有後面的專家會議在討論那有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3371.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3399.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
像您刚才说的这个就必须厘清因为这牵涉到死亡的支数那死亡支数是不是有流向所以这个是一个非常严肃的一个问题非常严肃的问题所以昨天这个指挥中心有报出来所以这个以莲还有在做以莲听说啦所以市基有做一些修改修改不是恶意的而是说他可能有增加一些租资的数目这个不可能说不可能用手改嘛不可能说他写错改的因为三年单本身要一致性 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3399.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3426.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
可是現在就說不一致所以我說我們在這疫調的一些疑點我們必須要再去釐清那請部長這邊就是趕快去我們絕對 我們非常關注這個疫情本身的疫調的一些資訊三年單的真相非常重要了解 我知道那我們就等待這個資料出來非常謝謝 謝謝委員的關心謝謝兩位部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長 請回接下來請林月琴委員來做宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3432.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3457.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席麻煩我們的環境部部長來 請彭部長李委員好部長好 我先問台中擺爛中央到底要怎麼補為什麼我們的豬農廚餘真主的紀錄中段數個月都沒有上傳而中央說地方事實上是稽查不力結果台中市長盧秀燕反擊中央說 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3458.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3486.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
養豬場不上傳沒有罰則也沒有管制工具結果台中市因此放縱業者兩個月裝作沒看見讓豬瘟有更多機會入侵擴散市長說要修法才能管理部長你認同嗎但根據我們的環管署回覆說現行法規早就有明確的一個罰則了家戶除於違規最高可以罰六千事業除於可罰到三百萬所以請部長說明一下台中市依據這幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3487.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3494.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
法規的法則是否就是可以構成可以對養豬場管理跟裁罰的一個要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3495.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3524.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
报告委员这个如果没有上传然后经过集合之后他没有处理好就是会依照委员提到的这样的罚则例如说是吗所以他事实上是可以是可以的绝对是可以的那看起来是卢市长似乎不是不清楚要如何运用吗我觉得他可能曲解因为这个重点是在这个稽查集合就是说他如果没有按时每天的去做申报我们这边就有一个清单我们就会给地方方法单位你隔个月一定要去清查那目前来看的话这个部分似乎是漏掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3525.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3545.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
對 部長所以我們要的不是推責任而是安全網因為地方擺爛的時候受害的還是全國的一個民眾所以請部長具體說明中央要怎麼樣去確保地方不再擺爛以及下一次類似的事情發生的時候那大政府如何去能夠捕捕啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3545.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3572.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
好 謝謝委員其實這個部分我們環境部也好好檢討了這個案例那我們未來是希望說我們可以有一個即時監控的方式不用那麼多的人力去做這個事情我也坦承說這個要上傳也需要人力它有沒有可能會虛假或是填報不實這個也要考慮的所以未來我們現在正在規劃說以後就是即時監控監控這個真主的溫度還有一個就是CCTV直接看 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3572.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3586.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以這個我們已經有過經驗了我們希望未來如果還要有這個徵阻的制度的話就要朝這方面來監控好 部長剛才新聞才跑出來有專家在詢問如果地方以露天方式暫制廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3587.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3608.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那在野豬活動或潛在棲地像台中現在幾個這個選址的周邊環境部是否已進行跨部會風險評估並提供處理指引會不會因此擴散報告委員我們在這個10月22號我接到農業部陳部長的電話一開始疫情發生第一個時刻他打電話給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3609.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3635.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我就啟動我們環管署召集各個縣市環保局所以我們一天內就提出了這個掩埋或是堆肥的一個指引那這個指引裡面說得很清楚這個掩埋有掩埋的規定要每天覆土絕對不能夠這個露天也露在外每天一定要覆土因為我們就是要避免各種的這個昆蟲或是動物跑去吃這個廚餘引發另外一種環境的汙染所以我們有一定的規範跟指引在裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3635.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3657.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以已經有確定 已經有了那委員提到的說幾個縣市的案例我們在昨天也有派同仁去稽查那其中有以台中為例有四個四個掩埋場他基本上不大符合規範不過有兩個掩埋場他已經進行掩埋了等於復土了復土了那但是兩個還沒有那他們承諾今天會開始進行復土的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3658.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3685.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
現在全國每天大概有2000多噸的廚藝一部分根本沒有辦法處理只能被送進焚化爐環境部自己說這是最可惜的做法也是最可能損害我們的焚化爐跟環境所以我先問源頭我們看到的是環境部處理的數據看起來100%的廚藝都有被處理可是到底怎麼算出來的過去我知道是用環保單位加上有些公司單位自己收 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3686.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3698.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
或是有些委外回收這些業者依法要申報來回收量可是環境部怎麼確定這數字是真的地下回收業者直接混在垃圾丟掉的廚餘你們掌握得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3700.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3727.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
这个其实是第一个是我们需要各个县市环保局一起把这个数据累积上来当然一天一天的可能有一些出入但是如果长期一整年或是几个月来看这个数字是没有问题的可是部长民间推估全台至少有一半的厨余是根本没被回收的所以说这个所以你自己怎么看这些数据到底环境部到底掌握多少系统外的厨余是不是都进了混化炉或掩埋厂 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3727.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3752.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
包委員其實基本上這個廚餘是最好不要進到這個焚化廠因為它有它的一個去化的管道我們是把它當成是能源來看待那這次是因為這個非常時期所以有些會進到焚化廠所以部長是不是可以把你們的統計數據請一個月內提供到我辦公室來做參考那再來就是我很在意就是我們的數據的完整跟透明民間團體建議我們的應該建立我們的廚餘資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3755.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3775.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
公開跟追溯平台他們反映目前的資料是否提供我們的主管機關來調閱社會無法查到哪些業者真的有在做處理處於而且最終流向違和環境部當然會說會加強稽查管理可是我認為還是要具體化所以部長這部分是不是能夠落實公開有沒有具體時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3776.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3796.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好 可以委員這個給我們一點點時間因為最近在處理這個豬瘟在非常時期是不是給我們大概一到兩個月內我們完整的再看完一次而且未來的規劃也會在裡面另外像環保飼料認證制度黑水盲跟生物轉化技術的推廣家戶的廚餘分類跟我們的檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3798.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3814.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
減肥的教育那這些建議都已經提出很多年了可是實際落地的情況很有限我觀察到許多家庭並沒有落實我們的廚餘的分類所以請部長說明一下這些政策目前推動進度如何哪些項目已啟動 哪些還在規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3815.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3835.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
包委員這個黑水芒它是一個非常有潛力的但是黑水芒吃完之後它是不是可以當成肥料或是飼料這個部分我們還要再跟農業部來做協商不過因為這次的事件大家都體認到說這個去化的管道的重要性所以我們的確是在討論這個事情我們也希望跟農業部盡快能夠達成一定的一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3836.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3858.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
所以我覺得除於優先肥料化能源化這是對的方向可是我們還是希望看到具體的配套措施跟落實的成果讓民間可以看到我們政府的政策的決心那另外一個就是部長接下來我想請教幾個環境政策進度的問題上次質詢我們線塑的議題的時候部長就提到環境部正在 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3859.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3882.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
辦理我們的減量里程碑的許願池希望收集民眾對一次性的減塑減量的那個措施的意見部長當時你也說到說因為減塑措施可能影響到日常的便利希望先了解民眾的接受度再決定我們的政策推動方式跟強度那現在這許願池已經在8月31號結束了那我想知道這兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3884.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3906.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
你接連發生多場的一個天然災害以及近期的一些豬瘟都讓你們很費盡心力可是該做的事情還是要做所以請問部長這個減量里程碑許願值收集到的意見目前進度是如何好 謝謝委員這個收集到非常多的意見不過我也跟您坦承就是說願意來到我們環境部許願的其實他都相對的比較環保 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3907.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3923.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
環保 所以我們現在正在擬清剛好因為我們上禮拜辦了一個亞太的循環的熱點展其實我們就提出了台灣的循環經濟的路徑圖也就是跟這個融合在一起我們的確要把循環率的比例有定出一些方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3924.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3948.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
但是我們也必須說這個東西要讓台灣我們大家一起來討論讓社會有一個共識才能夠往前走就很像說廚餘這個事情雖然看起來很容易解決但是如果民眾沒有一個共識這個廚餘牌等於是它是一種垃圾它是有價的 必須要去做處理的所以如果沒有共識的話我們循環經濟就推不起來不過我建議環境部是不是在民意收集完成之後接下來要如何去推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3950.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3962.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我們的檢縮政策要怎麼落實請你把這相關的未來的執行甚至預計後面要達到什麼目標然後一個月內提供給我可以 謝謝委員 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳清輝委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3977.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4004.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝各位官員的出席我想請環境部部長來 請部長陳委員好部長好之前我們風災之後處理這些光電板的回收片片有序號是環境部還有經濟部做過的圖卡而且人民也全民都掛在嘴上片片有序號片片有身分證 片片都找不回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4005.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4022.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個你應該記得風災之後證明點以前的官員他就在他自己的社群發言說廢棄的光電板真的太多了如果沒有簡易迅速有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4023.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4040.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個你應該也記得你馬上用你的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能源署 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4042.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4062.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4066.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4093.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下以改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4094.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4108.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4109.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4127.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採重量但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4127.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4147.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4149.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4173.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4173.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4192.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4193.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4215.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4216.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4237.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4238.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4265.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
保護委員因為我沒有在看電視公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息那第二個呢我現在告訴您呢您覺得這樣子合理嗎保護委員因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時呢我們有一個指引如果說要來進行這個掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4266.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4289.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我懂 等一下我會跟您討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能我跟您分析了一下其實大部分處於每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4289.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4319.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
只有不是你刚刚讲的1620吨因为你刚刚一再的强调说我们现在非喂养猪的再利用量能每天有1620吨然后你们就拿2115吨减到1620吨得出一个很漂亮的结论说整体的再利用空间空缺只有495吨你们乐观的讲说妥善处理绝对没有问题下一张我要跟你细细的讨论是这中间的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4322.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4346.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠 高效堆肥設備再生能源廠 黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4348.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4374.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
你是說1620不對嗎對 平常他沒有做到1620平常他沒有做到1620這是設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點的但的確他很久沒有做了他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都 豬瘟每天都發生所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4375.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4392.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的熟廚魚就是因為熟廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4393.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4405.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4407.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4422.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4424.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4451.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這個才是重點啊包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵廚來做處理我跟你說這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4451.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4464.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
你承認吧 有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本 是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4465.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4490.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的檢核他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4491.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4513.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4515.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4544.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深處理加熟處理所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟處理全部可以嗎它比例是偏低的吧這裡面已經有在處理深處理了那我們慢慢再把熟處理加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4544.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4552.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4557.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4579.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我說大部分大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4580.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4605.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我跟委員說明一下 委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4606.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4629.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園 像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座 這個需要時間那很好 那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了你早就已經小於62% |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4633.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4656.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生好 次長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖除淤山就馬上趕往現場但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4657.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4675.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地找方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4675.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4705.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說對啊有可能對這個地下水造成污染等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年耶你說我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4705.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4711.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4712.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4742.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
包委員 你這個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來他們也發現說他們的這樣都不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4742.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4771.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的熟廚育要處理打臉3今天的打臉3這位次長你應該記得吧你上了好多新聞你在過去112年113年114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下當時呢您還說台中市務實的作為亮眼的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4772.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4775.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
優等獎 如果說台中市對於儲油的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼 你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個 環境部絕對不是特意我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼 我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量 就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4797.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4813.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個是委員你說的這個是台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4814.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4836.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的政治能場他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時徵組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正台中市政府我等一下跟你講的指引指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4837.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4856.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
他就部分拿去燒因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢這些側翼又出來亂又說什麼燒又不行我不是側翼我不是側翼我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片投影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4857.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4886.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4887.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4905.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊 他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4906.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4917.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以燒也可以堆沒有再細分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4918.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4946.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
可是我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚魚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼因為你剛剛就講了怕地下水污染緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4947.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4971.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段期間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟您反映地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4971.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4983.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4984.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5004.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個要 這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋掩埋就一定要覆土每天的規範他過去就是也有照你的規範不然他不會等你的假嗎沒有照我們的規範委員沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來 我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員 這個當天我到現場去那確實那個場地它的設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5005.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5017.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
就不符合我們都會長的規範我們都會長有他設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5026.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5044.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
超大量所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了好嗎謝謝我自己澄清我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情從頭到尾都沒有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5049.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5070.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我必須要嚴重的指出 我也期待你最新的報告我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去 這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請邱正軍委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5083.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5105.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
主席好 我們請彭部長來 再請彭部長邱委員好 部長好我們先看一下影片好了因為現在廚餘沒有去處 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5106.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5125.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以我們有一個要求就拜託現在大家要把食物全部吃完不要有廚餘啦如果吃完就不會有廚餘就不會有廚餘去化的問題沒有廚餘去化的問題我們就能夠不要讓豬隻吃到很多的廚餘所以我們藉這個機會也要拜託拜託大家要把食物吃完不要有廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5127.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5155.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這樣就不會有廚餘去化的問題我請教部長你吃香蕉的時候會把香蕉皮吃掉嗎你個人吃飯吃得再怎麼乾淨你在做飯的時候必然是會有委員這個其實減少食物的浪費齁這個是一個愛護環境的方式啦我沒有說減少食物不對啦這個浪費不對只是說他叫這個院長叫大家把這個食物都吃完喔不是很奇怪嗎你吃香蕉會不會把皮吃掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5156.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5171.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
不是 院長意思是說我們每天餐上桌上的食物要吃乾淨那就不會有多的廚餘那也跟委員報告因為我們國人的廚藝蠻多的所以這句話的意思是什麼是要我們用人民用這個未來防疫是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5172.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5198.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
絕對不是啦是因為我們我們把香蕉皮吃掉就可以把非洲豬瘟擋掉嗎不可能香蕉皮吃掉的啦委員那個香蕉皮這個不是我們可以吃的宣傳不要浪費食物我覺得這沒有問題但是不要被不要拿來當防範非洲豬瘟的解方不是解方就是說減少這段時間內因為廚餘的確是比較多我們回歸正題啦就是說這是非洲豬瘟的問題你們研判病毒應該是境外傳入對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5199.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5213.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我不是這個專業我這個那誰可以回答現在還沒人可以回答嗎可以嗎難道是本土嗎沒有叫我上去啊沒有誰可以回答陳部長好不好請陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5220.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5234.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我跟委員說明我們現在針對現在目前的案場就是在台中武器這個案場那現在正在進行疫調中那疫調完成以後我們大概就比較能夠了解這個來源到底是從哪裡來的是從境外嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5235.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5260.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們過往我們台灣都沒有一定是從境外所以就是說你們也間接承認這是食安五環的第一環這個邊境管理就已經失守了我們從來沒有間接承認食安五環第一環就失守你是從這個境外的話你第一那個食安五環第一環不就是境外嗎境外防範的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5260.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5279.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們所有的防範作為對嘛那就是第一環出了問題嘛這樣講對吧我不能這樣講因為四巷五環本身它的境外邊境管制你現在就是說本土沒有嘛那就是一定從外面來嘛那從外面來就是境外管制出問題這樣對嗎邊境管制對啊邊境管制嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5282.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5309.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那我們這個陳時中政委不是說知道有小偷卻不抓結果你們在邊境那一環你們把小偷放進來的對不對不能用這樣的比喻所以是陳時中比喻不對了我們的政委他比喻不對嘛他的比喻是另外一件事情我說您剛才講的就是說食安五環的第一環裡面邊境把關就是把小偷放進來如果邊境發現的時候就攔下來會有後面的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5309.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5335.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我想你也非常清楚喔所有的邊境管制不可能百分之百但是我們會出了問題你們出了問題不能夠說大家在那邊看笑話就笑說我們台中市政府明知道有小偷不抓那我們要說那這個小偷是誰放進來的我跟你講喔整個疫調的過程這是非常非常專業的一個疫調在這個情況之下我們希望在防疫的過程中我們就專注防疫 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5337.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5343.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
好啦 你剛才講說是這是從這個邊境管制這個控制沒有控制好就好了我們請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5348.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5374.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
部長你在報告裡面寫著現在用廚餘養豬的廠總共是435廠那近一年來養豬戶配合上傳的這個情形其中只有358家上傳率有90%那50家上傳率60%至90%上傳率小於60%的有27家所以沒有一家是達到100%上傳的對吧有 有大概150幾家是可以有到100%有100%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5377.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5387.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
有有有在我的早上的簡報裡面有有改了是不是有有有那個是90以上對啊90以上就含100就對了151家對含100就對了對對對好那我想請問一下你們這這個435家這個養豬場裡面有曾經因為沒有上傳畫面而開發的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5398.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5422.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
他們基本上重點是在集合因為他如果沒有百分之百上傳隔月就要去集合要求他們改善就一直要他們改善對然後但是你沒有罰則啊有廢清法廢清法有罰則一般的話是1200到6000如果是他用事業的話是6000到300萬那這個沒有上傳真主畫面就等於沒有依照規定真主 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5425.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5442.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以他要加強稽查所以他下個月一定要去看要求他輔導改進對 他改進之後 他如果沒改呢你怎麼知道他有沒有改他一定要再上傳他再上傳 只要他有上傳就沒事有上傳 然後我們去集合他是不是按照照實的去上傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5443.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5471.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
對 它上傳這個畫面就能證明它有珍珠嗎基本上我們那個系統裡面可以看得到它的照片拍攝的日期然後它每天的樣態所以我們有人去分析然後如果有一些異常所以我們每個月都會發函給各縣市環保局那沒有上傳它還是沒有沒有上傳它還是沒有罰則對不對沒有上傳就會增加它的稽查的頻率因為各位委員你也知道養豬場它是很害怕人家進去看的所以增強它的稽查頻率所以我們的稽查頻率是非常多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5472.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5494.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以他們後來你現在意思說台中市政府沒有去做稽查嗎報告委員因為那個是禮拜天的時候工作會議的時候我們同仁有特別提出來因為我們在疫調的時候可能有一些速度的地方所以我們同仁有提出來這樣的情境他的確在這個從5月開始就有顯著的這個異常然後我們有提醒他們但是他們只有去了兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5496.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5508.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
只去了兩次那我再請問一下這435家養豬場就是說有那麼多沒有上傳按時間上傳的那到底罰了幾家請我們副署長說有開罰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5511.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5534.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
根據委員報告 基本上上傳是讓我們來根據上傳的情況來調整我們的稽查的頻率如果他不上 我覺得很奇怪的一件事情既然有罰則 為什麼那個不直接重複他沒上傳就開罰呢不是 沒上傳之後我們去稽查為什麼要再多一個動作稽查發現他為什麼嘛 你跟我講為什麼要再多一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5542.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5562.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
沒有上傳你為什麼不直接就開罰部長你同意嗎我們來立法可以嗎包委員因為這個國人其實對於雖然我是我不吃豬肉我吃蔬食可是豬是國人的需求養豬農他們其實也很辛苦所以基本上這套制度不在於要罰多少而是說它有這個集合的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5562.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5576.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
法律本來也沒很重啊 對不對只是說 我只是要講的是說他沒有上傳因為你沒有強制嘛你沒有強制的話就造成這個業者他就會忘記啊今天如果要有罰則的話他就不會忘記嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5577.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5605.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
保委員這個對於養豬業者壓力會很大所以基本上我們是希望他們一起來配合來進行為什麼壓力會大呢其實委員九成的業者都上傳率大概九成以上每天的上傳率九成以上是沒有這個問題的對啊 那他們就不會有壓力那其他人為什麼會有壓力對 某些的個案就所以我們環境部就是等於讓你這個法律解釋當中有空間讓養豬戶他覺得說他們有空間可以去做調整那為什麼不一次把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5606.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5631.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
到位這樣子讓我們所有的執法的人員也很好執法委員不會到現在推來推去的沒有推來推去因為其他家其他例如說被我們列為警示的有邀請各地方政府能夠去稽查的他們其實大多數都有按照這個方式去做稽核也都有改善所以這個制度是沒有問題的我這樣講啦如果說把這個沒有上傳這個部分來做一個修法你覺得同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5632.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5657.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
委員這個其實養豬其實我相信經過這個疫情都是一個非常挑戰的工作如果委員有這樣的意願的話我們也遵照大院的建議但是現在環境部的意思就是說以後這個廚餘我們可能不再沒有沒有沒有委員因為我們現在看到這樣其實這個制度或許有可以改進的地方所以我們如果未來要持續進行的話我們會用即時監控即時監控用連線的方式來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5658.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5684.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以你們還是廚餘未來還是會使用就對了沒有 因為這個到底要怎樣 到底要用還是不要用這個不是 我說剛剛那個陳季季部長有特別說得很清楚我們會再來進行這個評估來處理所以你的態度呢基本上廚餘有廚餘的這個價值啦如果說在這個製作設計好的話他可以養那個黑水芒嘛對不對對對對你會大力的來提這個鼓勵這個業者來做這個嗎這個是循環境界的表現我們會鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5688.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5714.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
台灣一年生產77萬噸的廚藝其中六成二拿去餵豬三成拿去做堆肥換句話說上一次討論就是要禁止廚藝養豬到現在七年過去了養豬戶依然是廚藝去化的最大戶所以我想雲林那時候七年前雲林就禁止這個廚藝養豬當時我們賴清德院長還親自反對說去化能量不足禁止太會會造成廚藝危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5715.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5744.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那我們現在看到的狀況就是你政府一進台中市政府他的台中市那麼大的這個量能他也沒辦法去處理嘛所以他也只能做掩埋對不對所以他現在也只能做掩埋你說那些場地你在臨時你要找到一個合法的場地本來就有困難啊你連不要講中央單位都有困難啊何況是地方政府對不對像這個時候我們已經搞了7年了那用燒的也燒不完啊那我想說未來我們要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5746.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5764.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
未來的話我們還是希望從這個更有效的一個利用方式來進行那至於說能不能這個廚藥作為飼料這個是未來可能可以再討論的問題對啦 因為七年了啦去化能量不足我們也不能禁止禁用廚藥七年後一樣去化能量不足所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5765.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5792.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我這樣看是不是等這事情過了之後然後又傳過水無痕又忘了剛剛那個陳部長我農業部也特別提到說他們會強化輔導的方式因為7年前我發現我們現在的耐心的政府因為狀況一個接一個很快這個下一個狀況又會把今天這事情蓋掉我希望這件事情能夠在你任內在最近能夠統一一個說法然後一個很好的解決辦法可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5793.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5816.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個我們正在努力當中我們先把這個疫情趕快整個告一段好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長接下來請王育敏委員來做詢問我會宣告我們到蘇清玄招委詢問結束之後休息十分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席我先請教農業部部長陳部長那請陳部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5822.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5835.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我也好部長好 部長這次的非洲豬瘟的病毒這個很顯然一定是從境外進來的在你們的報告裡面的第5頁事實上你們過去在機場這個機場這邊被棄置的這些豬肉產品你們檢測了9511件樣本 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5843.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5868.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
有997件大概10點多對 呈現陽性我個人覺得這樣的比例是蠻高的那我要問的是特別是今年今年1到10月你們有沒有去分析今年這樣子就是樣本裡面檢測出來的比例有多高來自於哪一些國家你們有沒有針對國家去做分析就是做出那個比例的分析今年的部分等一下我稍後看看有沒有資料不過我想要跟委員說明的就是我們這樣子的一個統計的母數是 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5871.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5898.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
旅客進來以後我們宣導他氣質的這些產品而不是稽查到去抽到的這個部分那些產品裡面有哪些國家比較多這樣的一個數據是代表的背後代表意義就是說來自高風險區的這些國家他的肉製品會有比較高的風險大概將近10%那過往的數據裡面大概這個10%裡面大概有將近七成到八成是來自於中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5899.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5908.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
來自於中國那這個會跟旅客的比例是有關的那至於114年你們這邊有沒有資料今年有沒有最新的就是我們必須掌握最新的情況嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5909.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5929.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
報告委員到目前統計到上週總共中國有來自1,125件檢驗147件陽性 陽性比例13.1 越南69件陽性比例13件 陽性比例18.8泰國檢驗168件 7件陽性比例4.2所以平均是11.3以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5929.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5957.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
好 所以現在最多的就是中國大陸 越南跟泰國嘛這三個國家嘛 對不對那現在旅客的部分進來的這個東南亞的國家像越南跟泰國你們有強化嗎因為我們現在入客是不准來的啊所以會經由這個旅客直接再夾帶進來的事實上越南跟泰國如果在你們檢測比例這麼高的話你們有沒有列為重點他們現在回來的班機所夾帶的這些行李有沒有百分之百的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5957.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5986.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我想我們在邊境的旅客的部分我們大概分為來自於有疫區的我們把它列為高風險區那高風險區的話不管他的手提行李或者是後送的行李是百分之百經過X光檢查所以現在越南跟泰國都有對 就是只要39個國家都只要跟我們國家那你們認為現在這一波的漏洞會來自於哪裡如果我們的這個邊境這麼的嚴密的話破口會來自於哪裡我們現在在疫調過程中還沒辦法很確定但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5987.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6012.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那它現在這個病毒株跟哪一個國家比較相似現在也沒辦法確定我們有做這個定序因為解序的過程中它的DNA蠻大的還在做處理你們第一時間有對外說是跟越南株比較相近現在還是嗎我們應該沒有這樣說媒體上面有報導所以要澄清一下我們某一段因為那時候基因有很多片段某一段的部分那你們什麼時候會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6013.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6037.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個禮拜五會出來嘛盡快做出來因為是來自於哪一個國家這個也蠻重要你要對症下藥嘛不要這個亂槍打鳥如果是針對哪一個國家來的那的確去加研這個我們都贊成好這個農業部請接下來我要請教這個彭部長今天講的是廚餘的問題那這個廚餘的問題呢我要問你廚餘共同徵足場是不是你們管理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6039.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6058.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
共同徵阻的機制你是不是主管機關如果它沒有符合溫度的因為它是廢棄物廚餘完了之後就到那個徵阻徵阻的過程是我們管的是你們管的嗎對廚餘共同徵阻場原本你們設了一個很大的目標要在這個新北桃園台中彰化屏東 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6059.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6088.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
都要設置115年你們共同珍珠場的量能可以達到一天可以消化2600公噸你目前的整個家戶家事業加起來不過2115噸那你原來有一個很遠大的計畫結果你現在只剩下有苗栗僅有一場那你這個計畫會胎死腹中不推了嗎還是現在有什麼困難因為115年其實就到了就明年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6089.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6111.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
對 報委員這個珍珠廠的規劃更是環境部跟農業部在負責那我們是負責監控它有沒有珍珠的過程當中符合這個環保的法律那沒達到這個目標誰要負責是你要負責還是農業部負責這是我們要一起來推動的事情那你們現在目標就是沒有達到啊你們到底要不要推 我要問的是你們要不要繼續推這個是不是要請農業部來協助回答因為這個珍珠的增薪還是屬於農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6114.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6133.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
處於共同珍珠廠好來陳部長這個是環境部管還是你們管我看阿姆什麼什麼的我跟委員說明現在目前共同珍珠廠有四個縣市九個案場在申請那已經營運的是苗栗的那個廠那相對的在這個共同珍珠廠裡面特別是在台中還應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6135.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6162.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那個屏東的部分有很多就是他們認為是零幣設施所以一定要跟地方溝通這是最大的困難那第二個我要跟委員說明共同徵主場在一般的豬農就是廚餘養豬戶的豬農來講他們其實蠻擔心的他們一直認為自己徵主的才安全那共同徵主的話他們是擔心的所以如果共同徵主場是大家廚餘的這些豬農有意願的話我們一定來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6163.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6174.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以現在是豬農反對所以沒有要繼續推了又是避零設施豬農又反對對沒有這個就是說我們還會再去特別是我們趁這個現在我們一直在跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6176.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6204.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
廚藝養豬戶講共同徵組如果能夠落實安全會比你自己徵組同樣是安全的前提下共同徵組是比較有效率的所以這個部分我們針對現在個別的廚藝徵組場我們會去檢查它的設備有沒有比較需要的這個部分我想我們會持續的所以你們的方向到底是要往共同徵組場如果豬農有意願我們會支持如果豬農有意願用共同徵組的話我們會支持那現在是反對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6205.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6209.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
現在有的戰場有的反對所以現在有四個縣市 九個案場 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6210.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6238.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
對啊所以你現在這個看起來是沒有辦法順利的往下推動嘛你現在就僅有苗栗一場嘛這個就是我要問的問題我們到底在這個廚餘的方向上面你要怎麼做你就是要一個方向目標你做到底就對了那看起來你原本設定一個很大的目標共同徵足場又可以確保這個集體的安全然後呢又可以大量的消化一天有2600噸但是現在呢遇到這個到地方之後遇到豬籠反彈或什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6238.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6257.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那你们要决定啊政策就是要决定要不要往下走啊你的资源要往哪边做我们一直讲我们的政策一直不变就是持续的辅导我们的处理养猪的去转型那从过去的2000多场一直到现在434场不断的转型那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6258.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6279.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
只要你繼續養那你就要落實你的廚藝的徵主那第二個部分就是說廚藝養豬場是不是可以設立用徵主中心是地方政府 地方政府齁其實我們也會跟地方政府合作如果地方政府覺得說他的場本身對他們現實來講他不願意這樣存在那他可以做這樣相關的廢止但是以農業部的立場來講 但這是你中央的計畫不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6281.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6299.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
你這整個是你中央的計畫啊你現在又要講地方政府不是 這個地方核准的啊對啊 但是中央你有這樣的一個目標嘛我們政策如果他們需要我們支持啊這個是你規劃的嘛你們規劃的就是要往這個方向嘛所以這個我看起來你們現在很有問題喔遇到問題的時候不是停擺而是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6300.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6320.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
要趕快去解決 去突破同意 我絕對同意所以我們政策不變所以我今天聽不出來共同珍珠場如果地方要合作豬農願意的時候我們一定支持那現在就是遇到問題啊那你要去了解啊如果推不下去你要趕快轉方向嘛對 所以我才說我們持續的方向是股島 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6322.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6347.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個農業部跟環境部你們把你們檢討報告提出來到底這個共同珍珠廠你要不要按你原來的目標去達到你的目標還是因為遇到了困難你要去做一些的調整我覺得政策必須做出檢討一個月之後提檢討報告可以嗎我跟委員報告一個月是不是可以比較長的時間因為我們現在正在防疫我們在防疫的時候可能告一階段然後防疫完了以後三個月我們看看有一個規劃的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6348.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6377.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
三個月要把這個政策提出來另外我要請教這個彭部長那個你在報告裡面提到這個廚餘養豬場申報上傳的狀況按照你剛剛的一個報告真的可以做到百分之百每天按時上傳的只有151家也佔整體42%而已其他的豬場其實通通都是做不到的今天不是只有發生在台中的這個豬場沒有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6377.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6402.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你看看你自己的報告裡面這個低於這個60%到90%的還有50家低於60%的有27家我就問針對這樣一個現象今天台中的個案我們可以去看有些要改進的那就改進但不是只有台中啊我看你的這個報告根本就是一半以上通通都達不到100%的要求啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6402.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6429.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
因為有些它是例如說它總會放假我們規定是每天不管有沒有煮都要上船所以那個很嚴格的所以它可能那天他們休假它沒有煮或是它沒有用別的方式或是說它有些它已經不用處於養豬了所以基本上我們當然說不是說申報率百分之百就一定沒問題沒有 我們未來是要用這種所謂的監控的方式能夠來處理不是說用這樣申報的方式我們希望有一個更好的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6429.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6445.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那是你未來嘛你現在就是要求他每天拍照上傳嘛那現在做得到的就只有一百五十一家嘛就是有超過五成其實都是沒有做到的應該是說九十以上九百分之九三百五十八家是算是我們認為還可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6447.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6470.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
但他也沒有百分之百也沒有每一天你們現在的嚴格是每一天一定要對不對那我要講的就是在這件事情上面事實上環境部你該去做的是什麼就是整體你的廚餘的規劃而不要落入到個案的這樣的一個攻防我認為這樣是不妥的當台中市政府去說這個看起來應該是不是要修法更明確來開罰你們馬上就要說不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6473.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6492.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
廢清法開法最高可以300萬講得很大聲到目前為止也沒有人這樣子做啊因為他要引用的他要適用的你剛剛在回答這一個委員答詢的時候還說哎呀我們的目的是輔導啦我們也不是要開法那如果是這樣子不用去加碼就是你這一個政策本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6493.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6518.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
你如果不是要著重重罰你的重點是輔導希望改善希望可以有一個更好的監測工具那就往那個方向去現在整個都弄混了那大家要來討論是說這個要不要重罰你剛又說不是要重罰所以養豬場都很辛苦啊那現在到底是什麼就大家會覺得在不斷的這種參入政治工坊之後整個都弄混了 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6518.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6548.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
希望環境部你回到你的專業今天要不要全面禁廚餘這件事情請看看日本跟新加坡的做法我們可以看到日本跟新加坡我們都一直覺得他是我們的模範跟指標人家為什麼可以做我們為什麼不可以而在多年前張立善縣長他其實已經呼籲了我們可以全面禁廚餘現在的養豬協會也是這樣的呼聲但是呢這個我不知道現在在反對全面禁廚餘的到底是哪一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6548.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6576.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
哪一個部會是環境部嗎沒有你們沒有那就去做啊全面禁廚餘啊請問我們那個副市長說明一下你們可以好好去規劃仿效日本跟新加坡的做法要跟委員報告其實日本它的廚餘它還是可以做成飼料可以啊 這個我不反對啊對 所以它做成飼料還是可以養豬美國有一些州它還是徵主之後可以去餵豬所以這個各國的國情不一樣啦所以我們現在當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6577.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6595.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為我們現在面臨非洲豬瘟的威脅啊大家都民意共識很高啊 全面禁養廚餘啊不用你們宣佈 現在嘉義縣也跟進宣佈那個高雄市這個民進黨執政縣市都跟進宣佈啊他們也覺得要全面禁養啊你們不調整你們的政策嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6596.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6619.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以你們要及早去思考嗎對 我們會再來研究說你要及早去思考現在每天產生的2115噸的這些廚餘透過你環境部一個非常有序的規劃你到底未來把它乾燥成飼料可能是你想要做的然後豔陽發酵可能也是你其中的一部分還有其他轉換成能源可能也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6620.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6648.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
哪幾種是你要推你的資源就要用在這個上面而不是現在每天還在說這些珍珠廠每天拍照上傳報告委員我必須澄清一下那個你剛才指控就是說我們用這種政治我沒有因為我們在這個發生疫情我們在這個疫情的應變這個指揮台中會議裡面我們提出來說可能珍珠廠這個過程這個可能有一些這個沒有確實的地方我們提出來是給這個專家能夠來審核那當然外界會來瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6648.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6664.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
沒有達標的還有很多也不是只有這一個案其實大多數的業者很多的縣市也都積極去處理你的表格表格我再讓你看一次啊這個表格就非常清楚啊這是你們自己整理的表欸所以我才說報委員他如果沒有到的話沒有每天申報的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6664.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6689.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
他隔個月就會去稽查 稽查他的目標就是他到底有沒有真主 沒有真主的話就要開罰所以部長我要提醒你的是 今天你是一個部長不是只看一件事情 不是專到那件事情 而是你要看整體就像你今天這個簡報 看出來就是不是只有台中這個養豬場沒有申報率百分之百嘛 有這麼多家將近上百家也都沒有做到位啊 那你們要怎麼去管 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6690.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6706.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
有做到為他縣市政府有沒有去稽查這是最關鍵那其他沒有做到你有沒有去督導有有其他縣市我們有資料說他到底有沒有那哪些縣市你把那個報告給我這個我們同仁都有報告分佈在哪一些縣市好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6706.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6728.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我只是要提醒你這個整個中央部會你要做的是未來的整個政策規劃從這個個案裡面看到你未來要怎麼因應特別是全面禁止處理這件事情你們要趕快想好你的配套是我們已經在想了不要每一個縣市都說我全面禁止然後你才被逼的你要開始轉彎要來做這件事情提早去規劃好嗎謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6733.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6745.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
接下來請蘇清泉召委來做詢問謝謝 謝謝主席我請環境部長還有農業部長來 請本部長 陳部長來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6754.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6779.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
講出王一鳴委員講很多來 我們現在這個廚餘也不要太多的政治啦我感覺這要專業啦這樣醫療感看喔不要意識形態太嚴重啦這樣的話大家都很辛苦講到最後就要失焦了好 廚餘的方式第一就是像以前爭取了二十一年嘛對過了六十年了我們就這樣過了嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6781.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6802.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
底裡就是焚化 焚化是非常不容易的每件東西都拿去燒 燒成一了百了但是這個是循環經濟或者是能源轉換還有除以一大堆水分 脫水後再去燒還是直接把水帶進去 帶進去整個焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6804.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6815.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那個溫度會下降啊等等啊那個是很麻煩的事情你們都不去啊我去有風暖啊博敦你也去過風暖爐啊我們屏東那邊都有氣過第三就是煙霾嘛像台中市現在用煙霾煙霾也是炒糕糕啊沒效益啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6820.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6833.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
再過來的堆肥像南京的一座 南京都會堆肥也超過公園 都嫌惡設施所以你的廚餘65% 70%都是蒸煮料吃的 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6837.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6861.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
第一是能源熱量轉換最好 換熱力最好對不對 五點所以你說要用珍珠 我是絕百分之百贊成你說要統一珍珠 我也百分之百贊成你說要有五個位 要有一個座你說剛才我們陳部長說這個珍珠場也是用鹹的但是我要跟你說你如果設立風化爐的旁邊就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6866.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6878.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
風化爐旁邊都土地都有啊那不是很大面積嘛你風化爐旁邊風化爐本來就嫌惡事實大家都嚇到不得了但是它都回歸真了所以你放在那裡沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6880.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6893.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
文部長你覺得怎麼樣委員你的這個建議非常好啦我們會考慮啦但是我們有聽到一個意見說這個豬吃的東西從焚化爐來那個就髒髒臭臭的所以這個要改變因為焚化爐現在其實都還蠻乾淨的所以這個我們會來評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6897.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6923.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我覺得風化爐旁邊的空地都有狗啦尤其是風化爐旁邊的煎肉比較便宜煎肉都放進去做好了嘛那你說這個豬的熱量轉換因為豬是雜食性所以牠吃這個之後變成飯肉這是最有效率的啦所以當然黑水盲現在說的黑水盲但是黑水盲吃起來要糖 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6924.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6948.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
到底是可以理由嗎 到底有安全嗎 我們也不知道好 所以你們要設這個集中徵處 我改記請我要跟委員報告 現在有四個縣市九個案子那屏東有六個案子申請那兩個已經 農業部大概已經同意四個在同意 兩個還在審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6950.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6975.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我跟人家說的在垃圾場去做我覺得是一個還不錯的想法然後也可以適度的利用它的焚燒的熱效益來帶動減少它的能源 增足能源消耗但是一個共同增足一定要因為設了以後一定要豬農願意用啦豬農不願意用的時候那比較麻煩所以我們現在也在跟這些廚藝養豬戶在做溝通你現在車子一開 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6978.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6982.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
扯進去 湯倒進去 就要斟酌你出來以後 又要加湯因為湯在你身上 要用不一樣的湯這就像醫療一樣買一批準備室 買一批消毒室一批在家裡是分開的 一個蒙一批 一個蒙出來湯都不一樣 你人要怎麼消毒火的東西都是汙染 你扯也要怎麼消毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7004.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7023.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你不可以這樣一樣一支一支 又一樣又串起來東西白做的 你的湯本身搞不好就都汙染 湯要怎麼抓這個倒是 都要用那個沒有到醫療標準至少有半個醫療標準來 我再來請陳部長問我們現在廚餘在企業差不多四五十萬隻嘛 裡面臥底差不多二十萬隻 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7030.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7046.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
46.6萬隻啦 出於洋豬場 434戶啦那裡面黑豬 我們保種豬黑豬 白豬 黑差不多20萬隻差不多 十幾萬 差不多啊 都在屏東比較多嗎 芬林 屏東屏東 屏東 屏東比較多因為黑豬在生長過程滿嘛差不多一年十三個月嘛對 差不多一年左右啊 那一般白豬是六個月而已嘛對 180天 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7053.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7067.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
厲害 用心來 所以這些黑白人都吃魚也不好所以他吃廚藝三十年了都這樣在吃幾乎就是這個廚藝廠這個餐廳他都沒煮就在刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺刺 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7078.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7094.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我剛才也一直強調 廚藝養豬它是一個很好的飼料只要我們落實徵主所以徵主的條件的落實的監管跟控制跟集合才是重點如果做得好的話 廚藝養豬是沒問題的所以這個養豬廠本身就要教育本身就要監控 要養什麼都好再來就是休養 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7103.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7110.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個獸醫我是覺得他在這一場這個出事這一場是說10月10號就開始出問題了你到10月20號在那邊說嘛那獸醫 我要一件事要跟部長說那獸醫的兩種一種是寵物的 其中一種是經濟動物的那這經濟的牛啦 牛仔啦這個那你給獸醫 獸醫一個月薪水差不多多少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7129.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7153.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
沒有 如果受益的話他公職的但是我們從今年六月 應該是六月開始有一個受益不開業獎金每個月增加一萬到三萬所以一個公職的受益一個月薪水差不多多少差不多 資深的差不多七到十萬七到十萬 如果像這個民間的這個你看這張 你要看這酬勞 怕死人就酬勞是要逼付 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7158.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7165.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我現在也要替我們全國的獸醫師講話我覺得我們對於這種經濟動物的獸醫師他們的責任非常重大他們是監護我們整個國家的農業會崩盤耶你這次這麼多雞這隻你在發財我會去獸醫師這隻吃你陳部長發財 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7182.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7196.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我這樣子 你剛才講的這些收費參考我會去了解那我覺得當然只是參考啦但是參考是有它的指標性啦我覺得我們應該增加它的福利啦300隻 以下的一個月湊了五百塊不然他都用訂的 問問的而已他都連來都沒有 我看他的 為投稿費都沒來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7204.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7231.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
他要負最大的責任這草老這很兇 這比剃頭還要兇我想這個可能跟地方政府不同縣市地方政府他的定定不過這個部分我記起來我覺得委員講得非常對我覺得在真正的對他們的一些標準一定要有系統要去提高而且是要有對於他這個能夠讓他能夠盡到這個責任所以我會請我們的房檢署會員大家的手藝都照樣做寵物 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7233.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7256.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
寵物跟我們的性命無關的那是給我們精神很爽的這樣而已如果說 因為大家醫生都知道他做美容那也是悲慘的所以如何保護這些在做重症的醫師如何在保護這些在做經濟動物的這些醫師要給我們有起碼的保障啊要打到要死 打到要死那分數很高的耶你讓我那三五萬塊 五萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7262.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7288.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我做過全國藝術的 你說對嗎我看著我看著 他們很憤怒所以我們的受益是我跟你講 這個是堆疊上去嘛我們的社會跟這個廠商你說一公斤一十塊有什麼了不起但是你這些人要給他尊嚴給他地位 給他收入這樣的話才能要求他高薪才能要求人家做事情啊不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7289.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7313.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
你常常把這裡弄成這樣 這太廉價了如果我不重視這個我就不會去爭取他們的不開業獎金一到三萬五萬也可以啊不開業獎金五萬塊啊 搞什麼抓不起可以嗎一步一步來 我們已經進了好不容易爭取到一到三萬了然後過一段時間我們再看看但是您剛才講的民間的部分我們也會來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7314.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7337.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
對啦 這個這種獸醫師是他自己去續產協會推薦的還是他自己找人的我們應該有個list嘛然後由畜牧場這邊他有些特約獸醫師嘛那特約獸醫師不是每一天在那邊工作啦對啦 我知道啦他有減的啦 減什麼就對了啦但是他都沒去看嘛 他也要順一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7339.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7344.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我覺得這不純粹是錢的問題我覺得這個是錢很重要錢是一個因素但是特約醫師跟畜牧場之間的這個互動我覺得那才是重點我們會來檢視這個後續的獸醫師跟畜牧場之間的互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7356.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7374.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
獸醫師的地位 尊嚴有沒有給人家尊重 是他們的收入這三個都要 瞭解我就對不起我們全國的獸醫師瞭解 要加油啦好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝蘇委員蘇昭偉對獸醫師發言好 謝謝我們現在休息十分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7458.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7460.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7616.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7625.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
像經紀委會就是展館而已其他人在這邊然後可以跑來跑去 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7698.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7715.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
對,可是怎麼來的啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7739.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7743.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7781.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7805.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
太好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7836.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7838.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7877.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7883.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7912.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7921.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7946.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7955.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8006.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8022.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好 我們休息時間到 繼續開會接下來請林淑雯委員來做選擇謝謝主席 是不是要請我們彭部長來 有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8027.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8041.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
李委員好部長 你剛才很多人問你那你一直講到說對於廚餘的管理你們要做到即時偵測 AI輔助然後要即時監控但我今天就要來跟你討論一下你們的這一個廚餘種族申報系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8046.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8065.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
你的廚餘蒸煮申報系統那作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場是不是落實了中心溫度測試90度以上持續蒸煮至少一個小時的關鍵數位工具都靠這一個嘛 對不對目前是 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8066.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8083.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
對 但從台中這個個案你看得出來什麼從這個個案的反饋你會看得出來說這個系統的設計有問題為什麼呢它現在看起來就像是設計成一個被動的資料儲存庫而不是一個主動的風險管理工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8083.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8089.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
你剛才講的好像是說你們要即時監測AI輔助但我現在要告訴你你現在的所有的過去這些年來從什麼發現中國的這個豬瘟然後到開始管理 監測我們發現這些年來你所使用的一個監測的工具其實沒有具備主動的風險管理的能力這個系統的設計非常的粗糙 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8112.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8115.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
號稱市警警示的其實是被動查詢的落後設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8117.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8144.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
在這種狀況裡面我們都知道你看核心的數位的監管我們一定要能夠具備主動預警還有風險的分析能力那你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能警示 警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視你讓大家去看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8147.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8173.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8174.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8203.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8203.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8223.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8224.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8248.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8249.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8273.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭你點頭如搗蒜 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8277.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8294.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同 你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8295.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8317.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8320.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8348.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8350.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8369.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8373.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8392.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
對 因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的去檢測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8394.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8417.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8419.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8433.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8434.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8455.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8457.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8474.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8478.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8503.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到 112年8月以後我知道我知道8月 112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8507.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8529.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
避重就輕 稽查是重點但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這一套系統上面不是 如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好 那我聽懂了 稽查很重要那我們這套系統不重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8530.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8546.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8548.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8554.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有是等設備故障上傳的工具有問題的時候讓他補傳可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8573.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8589.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示所以這個系統沒人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來說看看《每日申報》的核心意義在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8600.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8628.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
你為什麼還要做到即時監控 即時影像莫定 你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理你要即時監控 即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8629.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8637.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8648.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8669.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我是講廢棄物管理 輔助是輔助工具我意思是說它當作我們一個輔助計程的工具我現在要問部長了如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎如果像他講的還可以補船影像那它的真實性我們要如何確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8671.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8691.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去做申報很規矩的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8692.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8699.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8704.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8732.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有特別看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的可以他怎麼抓得到好他只要像手機我們拍照 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8733.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8746.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
會有拍照的日期它傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到它拍照的日期手機拍照手機也可以拍照片手機拍照片就是今天拍的那張照片是兩年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8748.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8775.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個上有政策下有對策所以我在告訴你這個問題一個系統的成功不是依賴這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的養豬場的檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8775.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8800.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8802.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8825.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8829.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8835.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
地方政府都沒做 地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入 管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8852.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8865.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那在這種狀況裡面他就是有這種風險而我們開放的這種許可那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾外外地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8866.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8882.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
原仲的幾個月沒有去 然後去了去了更令人不解的是 他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼 沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是 這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8884.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8911.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8912.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8930.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8938.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8942.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
地方政府這麼亂來我們要怎麼介入 我在問你 補充當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個機場當然我們有一個考核的機制啦就是我不是在說考核業者啦我問你的是地方政府你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的機場是重中之重最重要 第一重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8968.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8987.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
現在我問你 當政府去看 看了就說沒有發現任何違規屬於的違規啊 他還說沒有發現任何違規不對 就體制上 就制度面 就管理的層次我現在要問你 如何介入 如何管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8989.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9004.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9010.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9032.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
中央的督導角色在哪裡中央 我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有 台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認了你三個月就可以開一遍會也沒發現他違規了台中市政府亂搞不負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9037.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9055.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
蓄意偉儀 彈射一下 你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄 沒有上傳你不知道 市政府騙你說 查了沒有違規你也去騙過 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9058.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9073.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長 你護書長不要講了啦他講不出來第一個是說 我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9073.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9094.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查需應 需放一招 需以為宜他去看 再跟大家說這裡面沒有發現 為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報 都沒處理那你未來整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9095.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9117.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9122.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9139.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你過去沒有作為 是那制度面有沒有問題 安全是所以這個委員這個我們會來再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9140.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9147.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
你要去解決 要改革整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9154.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9181.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天增主申報狀況不佳就是異常除以再利用量超出許可量異常有增主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳除於增主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9182.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9193.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府做虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的處理再利用的豬場430場 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9210.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9221.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就是全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9224.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9238.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論好 到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9241.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9258.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
如果你不是要永久禁掉的話出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理包括我剛才講的那一些問題你們不裡面你們不裡面的管理就需要改進了啦是 是 委員這個我們都注意到了謝謝 委員的建議 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請廖偉祥 廖朝偉來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9273.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9302.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
謝謝主席 請農業部長跟環境部長再請陳部長 彭部長廖委員好 趙委員好兩位部長好其實討論這件事情也要去看整個時間的流程嘛和整個工作的流程到底哪一個環節出了問題那我想要請問一下這一次的非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9304.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9329.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
現在台東市政府的疫調報告雖然說他出版出來了但是在出版出來裡面還有一些必須釐清的所以現在正式的報告還沒有出來那請問一下除了邊境上的漏網之魚之外讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來並且進入到所謂的廚餘的體系當中請問還有其他的傳染途徑嗎我想過去台灣並沒有非洲豬瘟所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9330.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9358.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
非洲豬人的手力一定是從境外移出來的對一定從境外移出來但是在我們的防衛機制裡面第一關就是邊境攔阻盡可能的攔阻然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚然後就會進到本身的除夷的落實除夷的徵阻條件那除夷的徵阻條件的時候才是一個最後的一個保關那這個部分要落實稽查就比較沒有問題所以部長所以你剛剛也講到了嘛所以邊境先失守進到除夷系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9359.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9365.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9366.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9393.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9395.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9420.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年 107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是對 但是如果這件事情我先說廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵阻落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9422.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9439.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
完了以後它是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實它的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是 很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9440.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9463.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9464.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9492.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬那目前環境部的報告說禁衛豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗那禁衛後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9494.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9515.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9516.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9542.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
報告委員短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9542.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9564.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9565.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9594.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9595.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9610.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9611.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9629.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好 報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9630.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9653.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
對 那個時候我也在現場因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9654.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9666.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
附土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有附土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規那好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9669.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9679.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9684.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9706.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9707.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9736.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘因為這個東西經過這個組有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9736.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9756.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好 那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好 所以請這個部長可以把這個建議帶回去研議對 這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9757.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9771.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個引導不住的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好 再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9772.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9792.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9793.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9817.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增所以部長是不是也同意因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9820.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9845.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為它禁止使用廚餘的時候它會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當它在禁止的這段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9847.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9870.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9872.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9889.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場那部長有瞭解這個問題的主因嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9891.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9912.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別有一個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9914.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9934.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9934.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9958.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9958.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9975.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那所以這個部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%或彰化肉圓店停業10天如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對譬如說相關需求真正需要的比如團山業者 自助餐 賣場優先供應 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9977.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9996.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9997.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10013.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議我們工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10015.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10042.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂 亂抬價啦啊這個部分我想我們會來是 所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小小吃店相關的他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10043.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10067.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個廚餘真主申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10070.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10088.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這個我們有一個表齁這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10089.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10106.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛所以你們的媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實那就會依照廢棄法的處理對嘛所以我就很清楚的問你他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實他沒有上傳你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10107.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10117.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
基本上這個是他要爭主他就一定要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有爭主 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10124.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10138.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
對 結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10139.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10161.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10162.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10186.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分布在全台灣各個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10187.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10204.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
對那你現在變成是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10205.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10229.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10230.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10253.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦我有看到那個表格做好一個比較那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做的比較弱一點有些縣市喔那很多個縣市嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10256.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10267.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10269.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10296.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10296.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10319.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
中央有一個法則 如果有一個強制令 胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事 稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查 這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候 你有沒有更好的集中管理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10320.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10335.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10337.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10362.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10363.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10386.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10386.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10404.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10405.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10423.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10424.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10448.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對 您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這一塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10454.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10459.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好 謝謝部長好 謝謝廖長昭委 謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂 黃委員來做選打謝謝主席 我們先請彭部長來 再請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10476.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10504.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
黃國元好部長好部長從這幾天大家一直在關心就是說這個非洲豬瘟的事情那我也看到就是說昨天這個養豬就是工會這邊的這個不論是各縣市的工會養豬協會或者是全國聯合會他們也共同來立法院這邊來陳情那其中有一部分我想請教部長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10506.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10530.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我們既然目前雖然現在因為產生非洲豬瘟所以目前是全部禁止這個廚餘養豬那未來未來是不是有可能就是說到底這個廚餘是要繼續來養豬或者是要做其他的堆肥或者是這個豔陽發酵或是做其他的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10533.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10548.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
这个干燥之后然后也可以再做其他的这个再利用所以我希望就是说部长针对这一部分真的中央真的要好好去思考一下那既然就是说非洲猪瘟在台中这边已经产生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10549.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10574.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那我覺得看到廚餘前幾天我看到那個台中市把廚餘全部倒到那個坑裡面其實大家覺得怎麼還是用這樣的方式去處理這個廚餘那之前我在當招委的時候跟那個我們有排到地方去看用黑水盲去處理廚餘那也另外一方面就是說我們廚餘也可以乾燥之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10575.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10594.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
乾燥之後然後又可以當成飼料就是類似這樣的一個狀況那未來我不知道說環境部針對這一部分你們要怎麼去處理或怎麼去精進要不然如果說每天產生的廚餘這麼多那如果照現在這個狀況還是用掩埋的其實對整個環境是惡度傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10595.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10618.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
是不是請部長先回答這個關於這個黑水盲啊或是肥料或是各種的這個生殖能其實他我們現在其實其實我們在之前就有一些想法希望鼓勵這個這個產業可以發展起來解決我們的垃圾還有廚餘的問題所以的確我們現在兩個階段一個短期間內的短時間的去化第二個呢就是在這個15天或是未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10619.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10643.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
如何去处理这个厨余我们的确是在思考已经在讨论密集的在讨论这个问题不过因为我们现在都在忙这个去化短时间的所以那个可能要再一点点的时间但是也跟委员报告因为我们过去都是靠养猪然后来处理我们这个厨余所以它的成本是很低的未来如果变成黑水盲或是说生殖能等等那个就会变成一个成本了 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10643.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10662.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以這個社會的接受度或是整個社會的體系整個生態系有沒有辦法完成這個是我們現在也在評估的點另外就是說這些廚餘因為都湯湯水水有沒有可能先用脫水的方式先脫水方式然後先去處理或是先乾燥我不知道說你們未來要怎麼去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10663.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10686.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以我覺得說這個其實對整個環境我那天看到整個用掩埋的方式那都是湯湯水水那對我們的整個環境不會有二度傷害嗎對 包委員那個湯湯水水是不好所以我們一直在一開始就鼓勵各縣市環保局一起來鼓勵民眾能夠先立竿是先立竿來 我們再副署長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10687.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10707.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
跟委員報告我們補助各縣市的處理設施處理處理設施它在前面都有一個破碎拖水設備誠如委員講的這個灘灘水水太多對後面的堆毀效果是不好的所以我們有補助地方做破碎拖水設備那我看到台中市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10709.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10724.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
一車一車的這樣往那個坑裡面倒我都覺得他到底有沒有先把這個湯湯水水的東西把它瀝乾我覺得後續可能你們要再去監測整個這幾個地方未來現在是一個垃圾坑未來可能會變成一個這個廚餘山 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10727.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10746.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那當然我剛剛有看到新聞就是說台中市政府有先進就是說再把廚餘再往那個坑裡面去倒那後續我覺得說應該環境部應該也可以去協調其他縣市如果他們還有餘裕的話那個處理廚餘還有能力的話是不是也要來協助其他縣市這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10749.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10770.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
可以来一同处理现在目前最急迫的这个厨余的这个问题是不是可以请环境部一起来协助好 谢谢韦其实台中的这个事情其实从礼拜天我们一直关注到现在我特别因为它的这个堆肥跟掩埋它的方式比较不符合我们环境部在这一次这个定下的一个指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10771.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10798.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以他們也從善如流遵照我們的意見在這兩天也做出改善昨天我們也派人去他的四個野脈廠去做他也進行了一個顯著的修正我也特別請我們的環管署署長主動質疑環保局局長說如果台中需要幫忙的話我們環境部可以來協助是不是其他縣市可以調度雖然其他縣市壓力也很大但是我們發揮這個同島一命的精神協助來處理的確我們主動的有表達這樣的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10799.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10820.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們希望就是說環境部這邊應該要來協助另外就是說大家關心的就是說這個豬農他沒有上傳一些真主的一些照片或資料當時台中市政府說沒有罰則可是我們環境部說可以用廢清法去處罰所以我是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10822.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10837.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
如果確實他們沒有把這個資料上傳的話那真的是違法那有什麼樣的方式那如果說照台中市來講就是說這個沒有上傳也不違法那你要怎麼去後面後續再去精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10839.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10864.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
當然就是說未來如果你還要再用廚餘去養豬的話就會有衍生這樣的問題那未來如果沒有廚餘再進到這個養豬場那就不會有類似這個狀況所以我希望就是說不論是環境部或者是農業部真的事情已經發生了那我們未來要怎麼去改進去精進我覺得這個是你們現在要去趕快去釐清的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10865.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10879.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
未來在這個11月7號好像11月7號就可以這個肉品市場就可以拍賣這個豬隻然後目前他們是這樣子說那如果是11月7號可以拍賣可以開始這個豬隻可以運載 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10883.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10898.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個運來運去的話或者是拍賣的話以後我們的傳統市場或者是我們的市場就可以再買到豬肉我覺得說類似這樣的問題真的要趕快去解決另外我想請教農業部的部長就是說喂 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10908.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10926.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
部長我想請教就是說現在我們這個豬農現在我們講就是說你剛講的不論是白豬黑豬都可以用廚餘來養豬那就是說要怎麼去防堵這個疫情的發生最主要就是要珍珍珠 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10926.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10946.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
可能就是說要珍珠可能要幾度然後要多少時間才會將這個病毒殺死那未來就是如果還要繼續廚餘養豬的話我不知道說你們到底會禁多久你們這個禁止廚餘養豬你們到底會禁多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10948.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10958.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
先跟我們說明我們現在做兩樣錯誤就是禁運禁宅另外一個禁止廚餘養豬禁運禁宅會等到我們專家會確認乾淨的時候就會解開廚餘的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10963.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10990.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
還要多一道手續因為現在都沒有辦法進到養豬場裡面去做檢查所以除以養豬的部分我們第一個要先確認他的所有的蒸煮設備是屬於安全的屬於可以去做管理的剛才委員也特別強調落實蒸煮還有落實我們的雞茶這兩個東西要扣在一起以後確定他不會再有這樣的一個遺漏的時候我們才會再再度開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10991.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11014.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
部長我想請教因為現在除了有養好幾百頭豬的好幾千頭豬的也有那一種幾十頭的可能十幾頭二十幾頭的這一種比較小小廠的這種養豬場那你怎麼去你怎麼去管理這些這麼小的小廠的這種養豬場有的才養十幾頭那他原本就是用那個珍珠 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11015.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11039.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就是7這個廚餘嘛200頭我們現在齁就是廚餘不能養豬對但是廚餘要養豬的時候有一些條件你才能夠用廚餘養豬就是200頭以上的然後你有蒸煮設備蒸煮設備要90度C一個小時的蒸煮你才能夠養豬那這個部分就在環境部的這個檢查小那個那個蒸煮的條件有規範那未來如果說這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11040.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11069.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我相信部長你也知道有一些鄭咖 鄭咖偉後院養的這個這個是我們是也會跟地方政府或是什麼去聯合稽查以前早期可能有現在比較沒有因為在家裡養豬鄉下地方其實現在也不像那麼空曠了所以只要有人養豬的時候那個豬叫聲或什麼很容易造成一些民眾的檢舉所以這種後院自己養豬的情況會已經比較少了但是我們也會落實這些稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11070.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11087.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
是就是說鄉下地方可能比較空曠有的他還是會零星養豬那他有的就真的就是用廚餘去飼養所以類似這個狀況我們也希望就是說地方政府也要這個確實去稽查那不然其實這個也是一個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11087.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11115.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
對 這個就是一個非常重要就是廚醫本身養豬不是壞事你只要落實我們的徵主條件落實我們的稽查那就沒什麼問題是 好 那部長我再請教就是說我們現在的這個獸醫的這個制度其實有很多新的這個畜牧場他可能在剛開始申請的時候他會有特醫的這個特約的獸醫師那也許特約一年或兩年好 特約時間過了之後可能就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11116.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11138.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
就這個受益師可能就特約就沒有了嘛那這個也是一個破口這也會變成一個破口就是說原本這個養豬場他有特約可能為了就是說檢查或者是為了申請那這個時間過了之後沒這個特約的受益師那我們也看到就是說有的有特約他可能一年就是說給這個受益師幾千塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11141.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11169.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我不知道就是特約的這個費用這個費用真的很少那所以我覺得說這個部分未來我們環境部我們這個農業部要怎麼去處理這個受益師的這個區塊我想非常謝謝委員的提醒在這次疫調的過程在這次我們防疫的過程中我們也發現到類似這樣的一個現象那比較大廠的部分他有一個專業的受益師但是有一些中小廠的部分他用特約受益師他也不是每天來上班的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11171.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11199.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
久了以後可能每個豬農認為自己自己都可以當醫生了所以用到這個特別醫生可能會頻率少所以我覺得這個東西我們一定要重新建立一個很完整的一個機制包括特約收益師跟跟畜牧場的關係包括他的價格的合理化有沒有他的價格合理化我想這個東西我們在疫調的過程看到一些問題我們都把它記錄下來那也謝謝委員提醒我們這個部分我想在疫情比較稍緩的時候我們就會來做這樣的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11201.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11222.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我們當然就是希望就是說這個疫情能夠得到控制那獸醫師其實一個非常重要我們也看到這個台中這個場獸醫師他到底有沒有到現場去看或者是直接用電話直接投藥或者是用什麼樣的方式所以就會讓人家覺得說那這個獸醫師的這個制度確實也出現了一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11224.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11245.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
對 那有關於這個部分因為現在疫調還在調查過程中我不做任何的評論但是我們的目標就是找到可能的來源然後也藉由這個機會去了解我們過去在整個防疫的系統裡面有哪一些必須要改進的那我們要趁這個機會能夠改進了以後我想我們才能夠去抵擋下一波的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11246.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11265.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
好 那我们希望就是说要去检讨落实受益师的这个制度那另外就是说也让这些受益师愿意留在地方当然就是说刚刚部长有特别提到就是说我们有受益不开业的这个奖金那当然这个也是一个鼓励让他们留在这个场域里面工作那 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11266.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11281.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
應該也要再去討論一下到底這個跟畜牧場的這個合約到底他的這個價格到底是合理或不合理我覺得這應該 制度應該也要再去檢討一下我們一起回來檢討 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長 請回接下來請陳怡委員來做宣達 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11297.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11307.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
謝謝主席麻煩請農業部陳部長跟房間署主祕請陳部長還有房間署主祕 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11309.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11333.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
部長好 歡迎來到胃環委員會最近台中無期區發生了非洲豬瘟的案件兩位非常辛苦 部里同仁也都很辛苦謝謝你們的辛勞不過我們還是要回到今天的主題就是如何防止病毒的擴散先請教一下部長這次感染的原因跟途徑是不是已經確定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11334.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11349.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我跟委員說明我們現在的感染原因現在還沒辦法確定但是因為整個疫調還在調查但是因為過去台灣都沒有非洲豬瘟所以這個首例一定是從境外進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11350.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11368.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
但是境外進來的時候在我們整個防疫系統的設計就是有不同的層次境外我們盡可能去攔那一定有擺秘書的地方然後第二攔的就是在廚藝的部分一定要加強的這些監管就是徵阻然後再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11370.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11387.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這些豬場本身的自主所以不同的防線才能夠有效的去防止這些豬瘟那這個非洲豬瘟的這個感染途徑基本上大概有六個來源那分別是這個食用的廚餘然後人車移動野豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11389.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11407.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
還有污染飼料還有接觸者的污染的衣服跟國際旅客我想請教兩位就是你們在進行疫情調查的時候能不能排除這家養豬場有確實隔離人跟車輛的接觸嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11409.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11427.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
在現在的疫調就是台東市的疫調我們也經過專家會議給予一些建議跟協助包括這疫調的把表那相對的這些人員的部分特別是在案場的部分當初有些傾銷但是後來我們做我們第二輪會啟動所謂的環境的檢測嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11429.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11449.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那發現說這個案場的環境檢測還是有採到這個陽性的反應表示說那個傾銷不落實所以這個部分我們也積極的跟不管是所有的疫調人員或相關的單位還有人員有可能進出了傳播因為接觸了傳播所以這個東西都還在疫調過程中的釐清的一個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11449.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11462.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以現在也沒有辦法說對什麼樣的人對案場裡面的人跟車輛對 現在目前還沒辦法疫調過程中還沒辦法確定對 沒辦法做隔離其實他們可能也已經趴趴照了 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11464.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11490.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
应该没有因为这一次的案例他的养猪场的投诉相对的比较少然后人员相对的也比较单纯一点但是不管他少或单纯他的足迹的追踪跟他的那些关联场我们都一一排查在第一轮里面看起来没有我举个例子就是说那边有没有刚回国的家人或者外籍劳工可能接触到的猪只 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11490.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11514.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
初步的疫調是沒有但是我們我覺得這個東西都要做一些確認對 我想再確認再確認是很重要的因為根據媒體的報導即使經過消毒那還是在養殖場內剛剛部長也講找到這個DNA的病毒跟核酸那病毒的這個頑抗是令人很吃驚的我們看一下那個簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11516.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11534.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
光看這個冷凍豬肉這病毒竟然還可以存活到1000天將近三年之久那如果是這樣的話可能廚餘或飼料還有病毒那你們有沒有採檢就是說飼料或廚餘然後發現到病毒呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11535.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11559.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我們現在所有可能的就是跟這個案場有關的關聯場或者是他的移動的車輛那包括他這些豬送到批發市場的所有的環境採檢都是陰性的並沒有發現只有在案例場做第二輪的檢測的時候還是發現特別是在殺豬的這個屠宰的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11559.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11578.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
跟他的不是就是扑殺的地方有發現到這些病毒的陽性那表示他的清消不確實我們已經要求了我來請教一個就是提一個假設性的問題那因為國際旅客也可能是一個感染的途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11580.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11598.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
如果一個人就是說在別的國家吃了感染的食物然後下午來到台灣然後接觸到豬隻有沒有可能引起這一次的事件特別是在3到19天潛伏期內因為你們的疫調有沒有可能說漏掉這樣的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11599.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11612.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
第一个非洲之瘟不是人序公共传染病人不会接受不会感染变成潜伏的症状这个是非常重要的但有没有可能就是带着这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11613.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11634.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
带着这个病毒他如果他的衣服就是有进到这种他们的畜牧场那就有非常高的机会进来了以后又到我们自己的畜牧场所以在这个机制上面其实我们过去的防疫就一直告诉我们的事主就是禁止就是到别的国家的畜牧场 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11635.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11643.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這個是一直去那國內的豬農大概有這樣子一個觀念那相對他們也會預防就是一些其他的同業進到他們的養豬場 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11646.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11668.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我想因為請教這麼多問題主要是說我想大家都了解就是說確認了這個感染的途徑或者是污染源那就是擬定防治病毒擴散的這個最首要的一個工作那即使沒有辦法確認我們起碼可以用排除的方式排除掉幾個可能性那就可以限縮這個防疫的範圍來專注其他的這個因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11675.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11696.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我想這個部分如果有需要的話本席也是建議就是說或許可以再多調查因為剛剛部長特別提到的接觸的風險我想人力的部分大家可以再做一下調度期許也可以順利找到這次感染的途徑跟原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11697.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11714.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
謝謝委員的提醒那我在工作會議的時候我也只是我們部裡面因為我們部裡面有相當多的單位有獸醫師也會協助這次的一個調查那比較重要的是我們希望我們在跟時間賽跑所以這個疫調如果還有很多釐清的時候釐清的速度太慢的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11715.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11733.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我們就怕萬一有一些盲點我們沒有去查到而這些盲點可能就是已經移到外面去我們不知道所以我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們會更積極的去針對台東案場的這些疫調如果還有疑義的話儘速去釐清好 謝謝部長要請回座那麻煩請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11739.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11762.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
部長好我想今天的題目看起來好像比較偏重就是說我們大家在討論廚餘也會擔心在沒有辦法排除這個原因之下有幾個問題想要請教這家養殖場的廚餘是不是來自於你們清潔隊廚餘回收所提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11763.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11775.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
目前來看是那也報告委員我們會配合農業部我們今天應該會有一些配合去做疫調的工作是那為什麼就是如果養殖場有加熱的話人會有存活的病毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11776.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11794.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
應該是有按照這個規定是90度以上一個小時就沒有這個病毒的存在但是我們可能按照他的申報的紀錄很有可能是這個真主不確實也有可能這樣的原因造成所以你們平常就是說在提供廚藝的同時有就是加強宣導如何有效的加熱檢測嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11795.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11823.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
就是說我們有一個申報系統當然它那個是一個輔助工具它如果沒有按時申報因為申報都要有溫度計在旁邊然後我們也知道它的日期在什麼時候如果它沒有申報不確實有蠟的話下個月我們就會發文給環保局要去集合因為看起來就是說目前台灣狀況是比較緊張一點這樣子比較消極的一種處理方式我覺得可能在短期內我們可以稍微 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11823.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11846.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
更积极的对有效积极的来来宣导那我们还有就是是不是还有其他的这个养猪场来使用你们提供的厨余有总共400多家他是你说无期的养猪场就国内国内其他的养猪场 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11847.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11875.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
435家所以这个部分我想也应该要一并加强宣导这个住址的安全使用处理的资讯是因为我们现在还有5000多家养殖场没有感染就是说建议你们真的也是跟时间赛跑赶快去宣导甚至说要补贴这个低利贷款加热设备的购置有些小型的养殖户因为你们如果有些这个以200头做一个标准其实 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11876.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11896.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
其實我們台東很多都沒有到200頭那自己收集廚餘來養豬如果可以的話也請你們提供必要的協助那特別是這個南部東部的地區的這個養殖個體戶雖然有時候這個地方政府可能進 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11896.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11911.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
禁止这个厨余养猪但是有很多的个体户或小型他们还是会有这样的情形所以这个部分我想在台湾厨余的这个利用它是流动而且它是跨线式的所以不分使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11912.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11926.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那政府收集的或者是自己去收集的這個廚餘那也沒有分這個大型專業養豬場或小型的個體戶只要有使用廚餘透過這個人車的移動都有可能造成這個防疫的破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11927.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11947.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以環境部應該透過你們比較就是更有效的這個政策工具來協助業者讓廚餘更安全的被使用所以特別是這個養豬的這個養豬場的珍珠廚餘用在這個飼料上都需要經過地方環保這個環保主管機關來核可的這個使用特定的這個設備珍珠 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11949.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11967.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
並且要受到政府的督導監管所以我不知道提這個意見部長認不認同委員認同我們會來研究因為農業部他們規定是200頭以上的豬才可以用廚餘珍珠至於說低於這個的話目前不行但是未來或許有一些集中珍珠廠國內使用豬的習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11970.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11992.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
跟養殖的情況還是有關係所以我想這個就不要不要特別再去做這樣的區分了好 委員我們會來研究一下對 那我想最後利用一點點時間因為8月7號我們跟本席跟莊瑞雄委員 王振旭委員還有林月琴委員我們到蘭嶼考察那關心了這個垃圾倉儲儲存場 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11994.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12009.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
還有這個資源回收物侵運的問題那這個儲存場因為要等這個縣府台東縣政府處理用地的問題所以我想我就先關心一下那個資源回收的部分侵運的部分因為蘭嶼它是離島所以它的這個垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12013.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12038.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
都特別需要船隻運到台灣來那成本相當高我想這不是鄉公所或縣政府可以負擔得起所以非常需要中央的協助那今年經費也剩下21萬元但是還有成山成堆的垃圾所以這個部分不曉得環境部這邊能夠提供什麼樣的協助因為上次講到目前為止進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12038.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12062.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好報告委員這個這個案子我有特別關注喔那目前的程序是我們志願學院署已經審核然後還沒有簽到我這邊但是應該會有很好的消息也謝謝委員提出這樣的一個想法我們會照委員的建議來實施所以他目前經費的規模900多萬對沒有問題好那也拜託部長可以趕快蓋章好謝謝謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12069.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12088.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
接下來請陳素慧委員來做選擇謝謝主席因為時間有關係我是不是可以請農業部陳部長跟環境部彭部長一起上台有請兩位部長不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12094.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12113.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
兩位部長早我們知道就是說在最近因為台中市某這個養豬場爆發了這個非洲豬瘟的疫情之後那我們也看到農業部非常迅速的就宣布了這個禁運禁載及禁廚餘的一個政策那這部分本席對這個政策也是給予農業部肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12114.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12138.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那因為我們看到這個儲雨之後衍生的一個問題就是儲雨的一個處理問題那在過去我們看到這個統計表是2024年的一個統計就是國內對於儲雨的一個利用就是有飼料化肥料化以及能源化以及其他這幾種途徑那其中飼料化就是高溫蒸煮後 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12138.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12141.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
來餵養豬隻就是佔了62.6%這個是一個非常高的比例所以在農業部宣布除以餵養豬隻之後這62.6%的處理我想可能就是一個非常棘手的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12155.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12168.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
在目前這樣子的一個狀況其實地方有很多熱心的民眾就有提供一些意見包括我的選區田中政公所之前的員工他就說他們的公所在2019年就在實施黑水盲 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12172.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12192.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
做就是去化除雨的這樣子的一個方法然後效果也不錯可是我們看到黑水盲它的比例才1.2%所以不曉得說就這個去化的一個途徑目前如果政府要來推會有什麼法律上的限制就是說有沒有可能未來在這部分來強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12194.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12212.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
報告委員 這個黑水盲我也特別有去看過我們也認為它是未來循環經濟很好的方式因為它可以很多元的一個利用解決這個廚藝的問題所以我們政策上是鼓勵的目前我們也有一些專案的計畫在研究如何有一個更好的生態系幫助這個產業可以成長起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12213.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12233.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
在法令上我們目前會有阻礙嗎就是無需要解決的部分嗎黑水盲它的蟲蟲吃完了之後它到底以後可不可以當成飼料去餵雞或是說黑水盲它未來可以承承永續航空用油它這個怎麼處理所以量到底多少這個會牽涉到飼料管理法的部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12235.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12262.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我跟委員報告就是根據飼料管理法你要做肥料的話你可以當申請當肥料但是要經過申請肥料的時候你必須檢測相關的一個有沒有毒性有沒有肥效這個部分他不會因為你的來源不一樣就禁止所以這個部分會根據到黑水門本身作為肥料的利用效率那利用效率高的話他做肥料應該是沒問題的那這部分我們農業部會最近會有做一些積極的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12263.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12286.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我想黑水盲其實在我們農業部其實內部已經討論非常多了那最主要是它的利用效率是不是可以能夠達到一個就是生產用的因為一定要後端有市場前端去做的時候才有效果但我想我們會跟環境部積極來做那另外跟委員補充就是飼料做廚藝的時候它不一定是直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12288.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12313.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我們台灣是用直接的生廚藥去蒸煮那其實廚藥也可以先經過飼料化本身變成液體肥料或是固體肥料再給那個那個豬隻吃所以它有很多的方式那這個部分我想我們在我們的國內我們農業部的研究專案會也在做這樣的研究那我後續的這些東西我希望能夠增加更多的多元化的利用那這樣的話那個壓力才不會那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12314.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12335.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
因為基層的相信也都非常的關心所以也都提供了一些意見那他們認為說這個黑水盲的方式非常好的話我們政府應該要積極的帶頭來推動才對那我們也看到嘉義縣他們也成立了這個儲雨全循環中心利用這個黑水盲來處理這個儲雨我相信這個應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12336.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12341.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我們也可以去觀摩之後在農業部或者是環境部這邊可以來協助在各縣市來推動接下來我想請問一下因為這次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12350.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12377.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
非洲豬瘟爆發的破口目前就是應該是推測是廚餘餵養的部分產生的嗎我想現在還沒辦法確認在疫調的過程中完整的疫調還沒有出來那說有可能因為除了廚餘以外還有包括接觸嘛就是人車的接觸或移動所以現在因為第一輪疫調看起來這個疫情就鎖在台中這個案場那相對的是一件好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12377.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12400.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
所以我們積極上還會去趕快把這些疫調本身的一些必須釐清的東西趕快釐清我們擔心的就是說裡面還有一些盲點不知道以後變成以後的破口所以這個完整的疫調出來以後才有機會去看到這些來源第二個部分就是疫調也同時讓我們知道我們現在的體制還有哪一些必須精進的地方那我們後續也會來精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12401.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12412.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
是 那就是對於這個廚餘的處理當然我們有一定的一個要求就是要蒸煮90度90度是一個小時一個小時以上那我們看到這個案場他對廚餘的處理就是後來發現說他有好幾個月都沒有上傳這個記錄了所以對於他是不是有確實照這個標準來處理廚餘也讓人家覺得說會是一個防疫的一個破口所以昨天那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12430.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12445.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我們養豬協會的那個各縣市的理事長還有這個總會的潘理事長他們有來拜會黨團他們有提出建議說廚餘有沒有可能由中央來統一爭主後來供應使用這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12445.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12472.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我跟委員報告現在有四個縣市九個中央處理廠在申請那已經在營運的是苗栗的那個廠那基本上我們以農業部的立場來講如果這些珍珠廠是可以提供給我們的廚藝養豬戶而養豬戶也願意接受的時候我們是能夠給予支持但是有個重點就是我們在查訪的過程中也發現說大部分的廚藝養豬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12473.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12487.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
都是認為自己組的最安心但是這個可能要需要溝通然後也要讓他知道中央處理廠這個這個徵組是不是能夠達到他們放心的角度這個蠻重要的所以我們想我們會來討論跟環境部一起來討論這樣的一個議題好 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12490.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12511.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那昨天潘總會長又也提到了一個問題就是這個台中儲育海這種狀況真的是令人觸目驚心潘總會長說像他這樣露天的這樣子的話如果說有鳥類去著食的話會不會又變成病菌的一個傳染的一個途徑會不會又造成是防疫的破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12512.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12538.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
對 報告委員因為這個從這個禮拜天開始我們就注意到這個問題包含院長都很關心所以我們環境部呢從禮拜天還有昨天都有派人去現場的去視察那當然啦他們因為我們有一個堆肥的規定野賣場的一個規定他們呢很多是還沒有辦法符合他們這樣子是有符合規定的嗎有改進的空間所以他們也從善如流部長講得太含蓄了吧有改進的空間就是不合規定吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12539.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12553.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
然後他們現在昨天已經兩個我們看了四個場兩個場已經開始覆土了因為覆土有一定的規定0.5公尺深然後再30公分的覆土然後就不要讓動物跑來吃那這樣台中市政府算不算帶頭違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12555.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12581.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們是希望他們可以做得更好那目前他們另外兩個像這樣的這個處於海的部分他們也承諾今天就會開始進行復讀然後未來也不會做這樣的事情會送到野脈場去是好那因為這個防疫真的就視同作戰真的每一個部分每一個環節真的都是要非常的嚴謹以對不能夠讓這就是我們一定要嚴正以待把這個病情跟他防堵下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12582.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12608.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
好謝謝那謝謝兩位部長辛苦了謝謝那個台東監獄我們那個應該是太原那個武陵監獄那邊他們據說都有也是完全廚餘完全都是用黑水盲處理效果好像還不錯有空可以去看看好我們接下來請謝龍介委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12625.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12647.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
主席 我請兩位補充好 請兩位部長委員好補充好 兩位好這般的噴漆滴是很嚴肅的問題 不能再稍微提了風壓本來就是中庸的一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12648.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12668.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
你看蘇貞昌一定有同期期什麼樣的態度,對不對?他自己去到第一線,要放棄破口。那麼今天問題發生,中央地方,如果沒有一條心就對了,或專門擴大台灣,用第三頁,恐怕會參不領導。 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12671.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12691.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
我今天想你探討這個池地的問題 因為噴水後沒辦法企劃所以黃金寶有補助地方 或這個噴來做堆備的 更有優勢你不要叫地方的所理來騙你 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12693.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12699.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
父的地方說 你看我們這裡已經做得很好 台中我們這樣 噴的後備到 這才是事實噴的企劃 我請教兩位部長 日本怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12710.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12734.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
三十年前 日本就已經把噴化作治療人家噴不是只有咖喱而已 他的噴走到滾來治療是四十五年前的事情一直到三十五年前 他感覺這種包括靠地藥 包括肥皂滴汁 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12735.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12753.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
農有可能會減量,所以已經不再用我們地農的,把它噴好、滾好,來吃地了。但是地農沒有那個能力,它生業的薪金也沒有那個能力,來把它噴,做工業給它處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12756.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12756.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12771.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12791.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
噴在池底的時候 除了說一般的廚餘他還是要跟一般植物性的料源去混合你說的日本 日本的廚餘不是跟我們台灣的廚餘一樣他有分一些植物性的跟有動物性的 他們開始就把它分開了噴在收得的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12793.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12806.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
對著這個擔搭 再來對餐廳 其實是特殊的碰點譬如說全台灣現在生態餐廳很多 市場的 還有這個烘焙業 種種不一樣的年老 把這個噴了 它不是淡淡的 這樣煮煮的就有低價 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12817.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12845.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
它還要再添加 就是說以工業化的設備大規模 譬如說有汽滴在國管區 您想辦法補助一下然後呢 我們的用地的產業可以升級它不但把這份修理的消毒以外 高溫的消毒 還要添加營養劑甚至添加蛋白質 之後呢 它造成乾燥料的肥料 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12846.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12855.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這個肥料沒有滴溶 雖然比它脂粉 成分比較高一層但是比它吃全脂料 成分比較低 保證是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12856.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12864.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
對 他現在有一個機器 我也有去了解大概6500萬一天可以做25噸但是像委員說的 你頭上的廚藝要分類這環境不對嘛 不是分類是這樣嘛 你要做企劃之後 要做後備 要做後備是沒工的嘛 這就平常你才要用心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12881.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12898.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
您有什麼 因為你目前我看是你沒有具體的辦法沒有 我們還是這個真主的部分呢給豬吃飼料的部分還是農業部這邊處理那我們是當然是希望未來能夠更有效的去划處理的收集是你們的業務啦是就是說對館頭要去處理盆的時候就應該要做初級分類啦這樣後面農業部的身分才可以講解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12908.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12924.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
以身分鋼筋療養做出來的品質比較有體性 比較有辦法讓整個腰底、三脊、蹄膿可以接受你這款的治療啦我講的意思是這樣 不然你覺得是怎樣 你們有經歷這個做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12927.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12939.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
感謝委員 建議 你剛才說的 我們陣營已經有在研究 在做你們研究幾檔啊 你知道嗎我們已經 日本就做30幾檔我們只有在那裡 噴 要刺刀 不刺刀 噴 要刺刀 不刺刀這樣拿20幾檔 我跟你說 要放棄身分 要控制他們的身分當然對基隆來說 我身分如何如何 但是安全是沒辦法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12955.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12975.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以如果是這套的辦法,我們聯邦可以共同來福德地方政府,真真正正可以用這個高溫殺菌抗藥法,看守療養、行為、治理、新的治療。當然這個添加經過添加的過程,跟製造的過程,有增加的成本。 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12977.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12984.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
所以政府要補助到什麼程度 那麼是要負責夾價來中枢而且是地方政府通過管理 療養 通過緩衝才可以用到新的治療 你的看法是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12993.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13019.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
我基本上暫時 委員在說的 就是說我們長久的時候要把我們的廚餘變成用工業的手段變成飼料啦這個飼料的部分 第一點就是說要有業者願意做業者願意做就是說 豬農本身要可以用啦所以這個部分 我們已經把它變成一個我們在討論的方案之一啦因為廚餘的再利用的部分 特別是給豬吃的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13021.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13034.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
有很一種的 你如果爭主你如果說不可能這樣我們在討論這個方案就是已經沒有爭主的問題了嘛但是不是一定要在那邊行公義喔我們的爭主才能夠退場這個是有它的一些過渡期 我知道嘛就是說現在沒有在討論爭主 我覺得新的方向 新的做法我們環境部跟農業部可以合作跟地方來做這個平坡我講的意思可能比較清楚吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13050.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13074.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
這個我們有在研議啦因為我們也在看國外有幾個新的到底哪一個是適合台灣未來的發展的確是委員你說的沒錯 要細分類因為現在像餐廳其實它有不一樣的餐廳的形態事業的形態也要做好一個分別沒關係啦 你一陣子可以有一個粗暴的兵局報告可行性的兵局委員 因為現在這位很忙他我上禮拜接到電話一直忙到現在所以這位三個位好不好沒關係 OK半天也沒關係 因為怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13079.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13082.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我之前在經濟委員會說日本已經有成功的機器如果要授權我都願意直接授權進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13103.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13104.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
好 謝謝這麼恭敬的敬禮 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13136.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13151.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好那個接下來請王洪威委員質詢他有在中間謝謝主席那我請兩位部長環境部部長跟我們農業部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13157.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13172.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
委員好兩位部長好 辛苦因為現在的防疫確實都急如新火大家非常關心的就是到底要不要全面禁止用廚餘來養豬最近討論很多之前大家討論過2018年的時候當時的張立善縣長 榆林縣長 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13181.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13210.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
獨排眾議當時他的其實他的壓力非常非常大來自於中央不支持而且呢其實這個豬農也未必支持因為認為這個成本提高當時他讓雲林縣全面禁止廚餘來養豬現在事後證明他是對的那麼當時我們的賴總統是院長他打臉張立善而且他說這是影響這個豬瘟的防疫工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13211.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13231.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
但是其實大家一致的認為怎麼樣能夠降低廚餘去養豬的這樣的一個比例其實如果看到從107年到現在來說老師說有關這一部分我們事實上是沒有作為的對不起 我們把它看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13232.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13254.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
就是我們看一下一個資料就是今年家戶的廚餘再利用方式的一個趨勢圖最下面就是一個就是用廚餘來養豬的一個比例107年當時是60%沒有錯有逐年在降低但是到113年仍然有42.8% |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13255.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13271.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
也就是說這7年來其實我們在廚餘怎麼樣的再利用的部分這7年來是沒有作為我們從這個數字是可以看到的所以現在我們是暫時性的就是全面禁止廚餘養豬當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13275.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13292.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
的賴院長提到的就是很怕廚餘會流竄他說如果我們禁止廚餘養足那其他廚餘會流竄但是現在確實發生囉現在確實發生廚餘確實有在流竄那這兩天不是有屏東的這個畜牧場呢就 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13292.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13320.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
把它載到這個換外縣市的廚餘就換外縣市廚餘現在變成大家用跨縣市因為如果本自己的縣市沒有辦法去處理那尤其你們現在講台中台中處理不好啊怎麼弄之類那現在可能他不是在第一線台中現在是在風口浪尖上其他的縣市你難保其他縣市的處理方式會比台中市更好啊所以現在恐怕就有全台流竄的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13322.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13330.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
所以我想請教我先請教彭部長這種出於現在可能全台流竄的問題你們有沒有注意到然後如何的防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13331.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13360.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
包委員 我們環境部跟各縣市的環保局有一個平台然後定期都會開會就這次的事情當然台中這次它的量能它的垃圾量能處理各方面就不夠所以我們今天我也特別請我們昨天就請我們的署長希望我們也可以伸出援手協助他們調度是不是跟別的縣市一起來合作因為這個廚藝處理現在有其他縣市答應跟台中市合作到目前為止因為台中並沒有提出它的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13360.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13385.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
可是你不是说中央伸出援手吗我们也就是询问他嘛询问他要不要什么帮忙因为他的这个堆肥啊或是除那个掩埋的方式那部长你的评估啊你的评估现在不是只有台中禁止厨艺养猪其他县制也禁止嘛云林乐师他七年前他就禁止所以他做的比较好他已经还把他变成堆肥那他现在最近因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13386.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13414.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
又它本來有一些少量的廚藝它還可以賣到外面去但是現在呢又回流因為全線全台就在流竄啊所以它要去生產它那個堆肥的生產線因為它本來雲林是原來作別那它是因為它原來就在做可是其他縣市老實講我剛剛說因為我們現在是盯住台中但是不代表台中以外的縣市會做得比台中好您同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13415.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13439.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
同意但是我们现在都积极的跟他们在看目前是没有问题的可是我刚才讲就是已经发生了屏东的畜牧场就开始混外县市的厨余现在大家就开始混所以我的意思就是说您刚刚讲说中央牲畜援手非常好所以现在变成可能需要跨县市的来处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13440.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13460.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
但是你現在也沒有辦法我真的覺得以現階段你去問各縣市政府搞不好他不敢同意我過去我們在台北市後來我們才步入這位剛開始台北市因為當時焚化爐有一些餘裕可以去燒其他縣市的垃圾一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13460.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13486.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
台北市是反對說為什麼我們的焚化廠要去燒外縣市的垃圾呢可是慢慢大家也是慢慢可以接受說其實這個台北市竟然焚化廠是有餘裕的我們可以協助外縣市來處理垃圾那以現階段全部大家其實我相信所有的養豬大縣都應該面臨到說這些廚藝如何去化不是只有台中 您同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13487.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13492.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
像台北市其實它的焚化爐餘溢還蠻多的但是它可以給各縣市的比例只有3%可是我的意思說別說我們養豬大戶嘉義 彰化還有台南 高雄其實都屏東 屏東最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13503.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13521.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我認為他們現在也會面臨現通禁止廚餘我的廚餘要怎麼處理所以我想請問到目前為止到目前為止作為跨縣市的廚餘的去化跟處理現在你們有沒有一套辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13522.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13544.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
包委員 有的 現在其實我們每天都在監控 甚至我們也跟有些縣市 它的清運的方式有些呢 因為過去是清運 是養豬的業者清運現在未來有一天改變 我們都在積極的在處理那目前短期間內 我說短期間內 針對這個最短期間是沒有問題的但是長時間我們還是希望說 未來對針對廚藝有一個更好的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13545.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13561.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
因為我這邊我也請教陳部長我希望說現在因為一剛剛開始發生總是會比較亂一些我這個出於的去處理那長期而言其實我們所收到的訊息大家都認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13563.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13585.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
就是在這個時候大家都感受到廚餘會帶來整個的防疫上的困難所以在長時間還是應該去做全面的去禁止廚餘養豬那麼部長這邊可不可以往這個方向去做研議到現在為止你們沒有鬆口嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13586.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13612.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
對 我們第一個就是我們還是持續的去做廚餘轉型的部分那廚餘如果禁止我在這邊跟委員報告就是廚餘的大縣市第一個是新北跟屏東市有98場是最多的那再來就是桃園新竹縣台中市彰化縣這幾個都是養豬所以這幾個縣市你去問他們的時候他們就會有所保留但是以中央部會的立場來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13614.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13634.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
廚藝要養豬你一定要達到你要的一個必要的一個監管還有一個確保它的一個廚藝的安全但是我想我們跟環境部會講有沒有可能再把廚藝的養豬的這個再利用像剛才委員有講的把它變成工業化的飼料再來養豬那這個部分我們一定會積極的去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13635.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13652.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我覺得這些工業化真的是必須的我認為雲林因為他我覺得他就是他做了7年我覺得雲林的這種做法其實是可以給其他因為雲林也是養豬大的牠的養豬頭數最多的對不對那我也不相信說他是全部用飼料他不用廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13654.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13667.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
但是他一定原來有廚餘他現在還有廚餘對不對那他的處理我現在講的是我們如果能夠把廚餘把它處理好處理好那當然就有助於我們去推動全面的禁止廚餘養豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13669.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13691.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以原理當它做了7年那7年我覺得可以到目前為止看起來它是成功的啊它是成功的我剛剛講說它現在還變成說那因為它的廚藝又回流回來了所以呢它就增加它的堆肥的生產線像老師說連我自己我最近看了我家裡本來沒有廚藝機我決定要去買一台廚藝機了 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13692.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13709.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
你知道嗎 我覺得要推廣就是說從家戶學校到餐廳那我覺得你們現在就可以推廣啊大家有這樣的認識大家有這樣意識到那當然你說那個院長講說大家把這個東西都吃下去什麼的當然會被人家刪小 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13710.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13731.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
可是如果別說我今天家戶我做出來我家戶就買一台廚餘機可以的話我學校也可以添置廚餘機我覺得我們在其他的政策不管在尤其你的學校或者有一些重點的地方你給他補貼也好或者給他一些什麼優惠也好這樣子來降低這個廚餘量 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13733.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13746.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
大家一起做比部長在那邊我也知道你們現在一定都在加班比你們坐在這邊可能會大家就是這種事應該是大家共同一起來的一個工作所以也希望委員去跟大家宣傳家裡有廚藝機是不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13748.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13764.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那我也跟各位委員報告這個廚餘的堆肥的設施像雲林是一個特別的個案那當然有些縣市連珍珠也是其實它很容易變成地方的林壁設施那這個也希望大家能夠來瞭解我說你們三年只通過一家通過一家是這個合格的珍珠場 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13773.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13794.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
其他的就要靠這個養豬場一個一個去跟你通報所以我覺得你們其實來自於中央的真的還是有很多工作要做啦很多工作要做就是說我覺得七年前那個是錯失了一個時機雲林縣政府我現在回頭看我覺得雲林縣政府是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13795.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13811.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
就是摒除所有的壓力去做那是很好的而漁林縣政府現在已經做出一個時機給大家看因為他的養豬戶數也很多那我也不相信他的廚藝會比別人個人的製造量我也不相信他會比其他縣市少那他怎麼做到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13812.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13829.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
對不對雲林可以做到那我相信其他縣市也都慢慢可以做到現在是起步嘛萬事起頭難好不好所以我還是在這邊還是正式的我們還是會推動全面禁止廚餘來養豬啊這才是一勞永逸的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13829.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13845.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
不過我也提醒委員就是說我們也必須感謝很多的養豬業者幫我們去化這種廚餘不然這廚餘量很大那如果很多的餐廳這個廚餘量無法去化的話其實它未來都會變成是一個成本在那個地方那樣的對於社會的影響也必須考慮在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13846.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13874.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我知道如果那麼容易啊如果那麼容易當時張立善一說我禁止全面禁止廚餘養豬那其他縣市通通都應該跟進啊對不對很多事情容易的事情好容易的事情大家都會去做就是不容易嘛好不好但是我覺得今天竟然發生這樣的事件而且大家就全部都得認知都是跟廚餘是有絕對的關係的時候我覺得可以做就去推動好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13877.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13901.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
謝謝黃委員的發言看起來應該全台要來響應這個購買廚藝機使用可以減量是是好也謝謝兩位部長的答詢下一位我們請徐副委員發言謝主席有請我們兩位部長請兩位部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13908.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13911.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
徐委員好兩位部長辛苦我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13913.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13939.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
今年5月我們跟陳部長我們在屏東這個舉辦了這個我們這個台灣是唯一亞洲唯一的這個三大豬病這個肺疫國的一個典禮那當我們就是很高興這樣子我們台灣的這個豬肉這個能夠還能夠外銷到國外讓我們的鄉親也可以吃到這個好吃的一個健康的一個豬肉但是很遺憾這次的台中的非洲豬的事件我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13939.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13954.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
不只造成我們這個養豬產業的一個停擺甚至連我們消費端我們屏東的肉圓 萬輪豬腳 彰化的控肉飯可能因為貨源也會受到這個衝擊影響所以我想今天兩位部長在這邊我想我們還是要正視一下這有幾個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13956.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13981.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
昨天我們全國養豬協會的潘寧洲理事長他帶領全國的這個各縣市的養豬協會的理事長來陳情那當然目前針對這樣的一個15天之後他們當然我們現在希望這15天能夠把疫情能夠把它消滅掉然後能夠防堵這樣的一個破口出現但是他們也擔心這個後續這個豬價會崩盤的問題請教那個陳部長目前針對這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13985.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14006.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我知道部裡面有提出這個管制出租還有煤核冷凍業者收購這些政策那有沒有辦法針對這個保駕收購這個機制來做處理請部長答覆我們也曾經的去評估這些保駕收購的部分那因為現在目前如果我們非常順利的在15天之後能夠逐步解禁的時候那 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14007.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14027.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我們要去消化的豬隻大概是35到39萬隻那35到39萬隻但是每一天人吃的量是一樣的啦所以變成說這些豬隻必須拉到冷凍庫去做一些凍除先調節一下做一個調節那這個調節如果完全由中央做 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14029.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14050.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
中央做的時候市面上缺的時候因為市面上的冷凍一些公司他也會進口豬肉所以變成說我們釋出的時候又更難去釋出所以我們現在是用煤盒就是給一些協助希望這些冷凍工會一起來收購然後我們的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14050.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14078.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
補助的方案如果讓他覺得說不用再進口那相對的這些豬肉就有機會逐步的讓我們的國內消費者使用我知道當然目前我們先針對這個飼料補貼跟貸款的部分我們先給予第一階段的協助但是我想後續的部分包含你剛講的我們怎麼樣針對國內的產銷調解這一則然後冷鏈系統的建置也很重要這部分冷鏈系統是不是有在進行規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14103.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14103.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
是 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14113.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14140.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
不是 因為距離這個禁運 禁宅的時間也存幾天而已這要加快進行啊不然到時候整個A出來那個真的是市場會很混亂我們了解這個時間的壓力但是我其實很希望能夠順利的能夠在這個時間裡面因為現在剛好正是前夫妻現在剛好正是前夫妻發病的時間所以我們現在的目的就是要防疫趕快去確認我們的場域是乾淨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14141.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14170.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
我想請教彭部長當然我們現在屏東我們也是養豬的一個大縣那當然剛剛有很多委員都提到這個廚餘去化的問題那當然這個過去就是一直爭論爭論不休啦那當然這個剛剛部長有提到這個養豬業者對於廚餘的去化也扮演一定功能的角色但是目前碰到這樣的一個問題後續部裡面針對這樣的一個去化的問題因為我自己本身也接到很多陳情包含學校的營養午餐包含餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14171.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14190.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
很多都沒人要修 他們很頭痛那你說要全部弄到屏東的這個焚化爐焚化爐本身就有一定的運作的能量那如果這樣子他們也會擔心造成處理進去之後會造成這個機械運作的一個問題這部分會遇到很多的一個困境部長怎麼去處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14190.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14211.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
好 包委員我們現在處理的調度短時間內的處理短時間內沒問題但是我們認為如果時間一拉長一定是一個很大的壓力所以這個部分例如說委員提到的這個未來如何再有一個更好的制度那我們的確正在研議當中那我們是希望是說我要特別這個場合就感謝這個養豬業者幫我們去化掉很多的廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14212.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14228.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那未來的有幾個方向那我們現在會跟農業部來討論例如說共同珍珠或是說生殖能其實那個因為有些地方要推動這個東西都很好但是很容易被變成零幣設施那這個我們就要從全面的來規劃從循環經濟的角度來看這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14231.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14253.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這個我們養豬業者也是在提這個事情就是說他們願意配合政策但是我們如果沒有一個明確的方向變成這個到處流竄這個也不能解決問題是沒錯那有沒有可能考慮像日本一樣成立這個集中的一個斟酌的模式有這個對謝謝委員的建議這個部分我們那個會跟那個主要是農業部主責那我們會跟農業部一起來協作來討論這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14255.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14270.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那我想剛剛我也特別提到這個我們未來後續針對這個兩個部會 跨部會整變的一個部分那我要特別跟部長提到一個事情我自己本身家裡我也是很早就買廚藝機了我們媽媽自己在煎火煎菜 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14272.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14293.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
當作肥料那個效果真的很好啦那屏東縣政府今年也主動補助經費這個補助我們的鄉親來購買廚藝機也是很那個效果也很好而且他們也在加碼我想這個部長這個政策非常非常的好而且能夠幫幫忙家裡能夠做這樣一個去化的一個動作有沒有考慮編列經費來全民性的一個推廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14294.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14311.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
委員這個我們來研究一下但是因為現在我們的經費財化法過後之後要這個如何跟地方來合作這個要討論啦但是我是覺得這是一個方向我們可以來演繹因為我覺得能夠從這個地方去帶動多少都有對這個儲備量一定會有減少的一個效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14312.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14331.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那最後我想 兩位部長 我想未來共同的努力的方向這個存一百的時間而已 真的要加快速度我想我們趕快讓這個產業恢復秩序 讓我們的消費端的鄉親也能夠趕快恢復 能夠吃到吃到那個好的地方也避免這樣一個市場崩盤的一個危機 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14336.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14358.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
好 謝謝徐委員 謝謝兩位部長接下來請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在請王正旭委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席好 謝謝有請彭部長來 請部長 彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14362.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14383.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
部長好 王委員好在還沒有請教部長之前剛好一直提到有關廚餘機事實上像大型的公務機關比如說立法院好了立法院如果有一部商用的廚餘機應該是大家會很高興不管是立法院或者是行政院甚至其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14384.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14397.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
公務機關如果能夠適當的請這些部分來處理的話應該是可以讓大家集中在用餐以後這些處理能夠有好的地方來處理那這個祖密可以幫忙反映嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14400.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14421.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
還是我們有其他的管道也報告委員上次那個有委員建議說我們的廁所不要衛生紙不能丟那我們就有來輔導了然後現在立法院可以衛生紙可以丟馬桶了那可能委員提出質疑我們就協助來辦理OK好太好了這樣的話我相信對於這個廚藝減量會有很大的幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14423.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14440.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
所以今天就根據召委所排的主題來跟部長討論一下我相信今天已經講了非常非常的多不過希望也能夠有機會提供一點意見再讓部長做參考第一個部分就是提升出於區發量能跟再利用的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14441.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14459.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
其實我們也知道過去這幾年來7年來家戶廚餘其實這個量變動並不大都維持在50萬噸左右其中就是會有40%是用來做養豬另外有45%是用來堆肥 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14460.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14477.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我們看到比較好的就是從過去的很少量是用來做其他的部分再利用的地方已經增長到11.4%這部分的確我相信環境部這邊其實非常用心的在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14478.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14491.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那其中包括黑水盲處理的廚餘每一年去年就有1萬噸佔了整體在利用的1.9%那今天這個部長的口頭報告裡面也都講得非常清楚那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14492.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14507.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
如果再把這個四葉廚餘再加進來的話有關於飼料化處理就從四層變成了六層那代表著說我們的四葉廚餘其實很多都會把它變成一個廚餘的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14508.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14526.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
其實我們剛剛部長有提到這個廚餘量這麼大其實養豬除了讓豬當飼料以外很大一部分就是希望能夠讓這個在處理廚餘過程當中是一個很好的減量的一種方式這個我們也可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14527.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14546.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
不過如果能夠有更好的方式的話尤其如果要目標是未來不要把它當作一個出於去養豬的話可能我們很多很多的事情都要持續的來努力那去年應該說今年5月跟7月裡面我們也分別在環境部跟農業部請 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14549.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14571.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
兩個部會一起來努力以黑水盲來處理不管是PFAS或者是食品廢棄物處理相關的成效的部分那個時候兩個部會都有表示說依據相關的目標來持續推動政策跟鬆綁相關的法律規範請問目前兩個部會的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14574.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14602.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
討論平台有沒有實際的進度那如何能夠更有效率的來促成這部分不知道部長這邊有沒有可以來做監禁部說明的地方包委因為趁這次的這個廚藝的事情我們也有主動跟陳部長說我們要加速來完成這個事情例如說如何訂定可以做當成飼料例如說他吃什麼可以變成飼料什麼這個要有一個更好的一個明確的規範我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14603.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14629.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我們會加速來完成這些事情因為黑水盲的確是一個很有效有潛力的一個措施那這個部分我們會再跟農業部在最後的再確認我們希望能夠樂觀啟程這個可以趕快發展起來那一個月或者是到年底方便給我們報告委員到年底好不好因為我們最近真的很趕 了解了解謝謝好那就麻煩在年底的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14631.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14656.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
給我們一份相關的那個研議的報告那再過來就是講到這個預防並減少食物浪費那部長一直強調這個源頭減量才是最好的選擇我相信大家都可以認同這個部分那我們有沒有什麼更具體的因應政策這邊我們看到的就是已經進入了三年的有關於一個環境教育活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14656.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14671.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
就是席時來檢除於有一個競賽叫做首席廚師競賽看起來好像辦得非常的熱絡而且它的總獎金是75萬元那裡面有所謂的十大行動的理念那部長不曉得有沒有去參與這樣的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14673.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14702.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
有有有對那也跟委員報告因為這個是一個宣導型的一個活動那我昨天也特別跟我們的主辦的這個市長討論說我們辦這個活動或是說我們國人的剩食大概量是多少有沒有一個更好的指標能夠來做確定那當然我們因為知道這個洗食跟食農教育是有關所以我也主動提出來說因為食農教育是農業部在主責未來我們希望在能夠針對這個源頭講的部分特別是食物浪費的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14702.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14719.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這個也是保護地球的一種方式特別是在資源匱乏的時候所以我們會更積極的來處理因為目前我必須坦承這個是一個活動活動型的活動鼓勵大家但是真的減了多少的量我還不知道所以我必須要用更好的方法來解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14720.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14733.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
是的確這是一個永續理念的一種推廣也希望能夠將來落實那我們來看其他國家怎麼處理好的比如說在韓國韓國的這個廚餘的處理方式呢它是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14734.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14752.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
劑量付費的原則就是你儲餘量越多你就要繳更多的費用來協助政府或者是協助相關的機關把這個部分能夠更有好的經費來處理這是韓國有的經驗這是一種可以達成導演作用的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14754.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14776.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
比較特別的反而是法國法國在2016年他們就定立了反食品浪費法他們的做法就是要求禁止就是該法禁止面積超過400平方公尺的大型超市銷毀或者是丟棄可食用的食物取而代之的是強制要求跟食物原住的組織包括食物銀行等 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14777.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14796.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
失算機關他們會先訂立一個捐贈的協議再分配那如果不遵守這個法律的經營者將被處以罰款這個是他們當初執行的時候那後來他們將集體的差點不管是監獄 醫院或者學校都把它納為其中的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14797.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14812.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
希望能夠要求去做食物浪費的診斷因為你有診斷知道怎麼處理才能夠有效的去把這個食物浪費減少這個是他們曾經正在執行當中的一些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14813.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14825.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這個是可以當作一個參考的部分不知道這部分環境部甚至包括農業部可不可以一起來研議如果國外有相關的經驗的話台灣如何能夠借用國外的經驗來做後續的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14827.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14852.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
好 謝謝委員這非常好的建議因為法國這個法我六月的時候剛好到法國有當面問他們的官員這個法實際上執行的狀況那我們會密切注意那也跟委員報告因為我們現在也在推一個資源循環的推動法那其實也會把這個觀念放在這個法裡面也希望委員到時候可以來支持做這個事情因為這個是避免食物浪費很重要的法規上面訂定的一個一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14853.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14877.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
是太好了我們會除了積極來互相討論以外我們希望這個法律能夠順利經過大家共同討論來支持是好謝謝那最後有關於這個處以爭主的申報系統跟稽查長我想今天已經非常多的委員針對於相關的這個內容做了相關的槌尋那部長也都有意義來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14878.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14901.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那我們也看到的確還是有將近一半左右他沒有辦法要依照好的規定來做稽核稽查那這部分我覺得是不是部長這邊有可以更有強力的一些作為來協助地方政府在這個處理過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14902.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14922.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
如果他們無法去稽查有什麼特別原因或者是這個當中如果又有其他新的破口出來造成的問題部長這邊能不能更有更積極的作為來協助處理這一塊報告委員因為這個是108年一直到現在剛好今年我們也嘗試進行一些感測器溫度計在這個鍋爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14923.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14944.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
甚至還有CCTV直接即時的監控那目前我們有測試過了某一個廠然後其實執行的效果蠻好的而且這樣就避免說他到底有沒有去稽查我們會更有強制的力量也可以幫地方政府來做這個事所以我們正在研議那如果未來還是必須靠廚藝真主的話我們就強烈建議要導入這套的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14945.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14974.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
是期待就是說如果民眾能夠掌握類似的訊息我相信地方住管機關也會比較有壓力所以我們希望把這個訊息能夠不斷的或者是甚至是每天能夠讓透過媒體朋友的一些報導讓民眾知道現在的狀況那也希望地方政府能夠充分的來配合要求所有的這個養豬場或者是相關的處理都可以如期如大家共同努力的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14975.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14981.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
好 沒有問題 謝謝委員請部長繼續幫忙 謝謝好 謝謝王委員的選擇接下來請楊瓊一委員 楊瓊一委員不在好 下一位請劉建和委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15003.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15019.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
謝謝主席 先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好 部長辛苦了一早到現在我想還是有人多忙點我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個貴州豬瓣這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15025.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15047.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲嘛中央應該是要強力的去把它接管起來昨天 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15048.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15073.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的這立院的相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講喔在暗場中像水桶雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化清除掉這是不是真的部長有掌握嗎這個要請農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15074.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15078.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
他們那個防潔局 那就請部長 請陳部長這跟我屬性 這應該屬性吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15085.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15104.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
對 這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒 再次檢查因為已經20天了 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15106.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15118.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
對不起 從20號發生到現在嘛 對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題 還公開來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15132.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15142.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
它佔的比例 全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15144.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15162.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15164.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15192.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為又盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15195.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15219.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
教他們如何先移除雜物然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告 你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15220.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15238.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就昨天那個潘連周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛這不應該是這個樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15240.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15255.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那顯然在全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣的一個問題的存在然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15256.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15284.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那你中央不強力介入你還要帶核死還要帶什麼樣的方式去做處理我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的去了解我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15286.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15309.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講講白一點我們今天我們今天就會比較強力的去聊去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論然後剛剛是針對清消然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15311.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15335.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
因為副部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿霧荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15338.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15364.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15365.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15383.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果是 沒有錯嘛 沒錯 這樣都有效嘛對 他們都不可以這樣做嘛 沒錯副書長落後 結果是怎樣結果 結果就是同意讓他們就是就地掩埋 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15385.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15409.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
包委員因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果依照你環境部的標準10公尺x10公尺的掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10x10嗎很大10米 x10米嗎幾十米 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15413.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15434.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
幾十米啊 就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時 現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15436.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15437.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
所以所以環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15457.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15478.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
不直接進駐 直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋 掩埋又變成文化就一日三變 還是幾天變一次那環境部的 環境部 環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15479.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15497.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有 我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15498.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15526.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
廚餘含水量高啦 我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用焚化的這樣的一個方式對焚化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害 甚至於焚化不安全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上 也不一定啦那我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀 一下子掩埋 一下子要到焚化爐去焚化 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15530.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15555.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
跟委員報告 因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的措施啦那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置 這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊 就是緊急應變嘛 對不對短期又進行應變 但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天 它就出頭十出啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15558.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15581.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
所以剛剛有幾個委員 包含政黨委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消 連那個儲備的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長 我覺得你可能要 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15582.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15601.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
要承擔起更大的責任 不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議 我們的確是在思考這個問題因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15601.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15621.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接進駐在這個地方不用回來備詢了我講真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15623.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15648.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15649.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15675.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15676.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15704.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬它有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下它才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節它都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯集物的再利用情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15704.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15731.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農林水產省與他們的環境省發布會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15732.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15754.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以 部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協力的合作來解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15757.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15785.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
有很多事情啦是 因為博定也要再接很多委員你們做博定也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有 因為那個未來的挑戰很大我知道你們已經我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到10多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打10多通不不不 這不代表我們很密切啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15787.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15808.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
就是密切啊 密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦 能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳部長講到是希望整個這個我們禁運 建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦 好不好就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15810.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15830.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
兩個禮拜可以吧 因為兩個禮拜還在 三個禮拜一個月好不好 您就很密切啊 哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的 一個月好不好是啦 不是跟你們很忙的 大家都很忙的好 補充車位一個月 補充車站補充一下喔 抱歉 陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市集場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15832.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15839.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15863.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15890.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的對怎麼會有一個不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極他爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15891.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15900.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢 你有感覺嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15902.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15921.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
這很恐怖嘛 你來前八十四年都尽量 尽量的零售是這樣啊 第二季的差不多跟尽量差六個 又多六個你們總共加起來是 還多了六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15922.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15947.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15949.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15956.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好 我最後再請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15958.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15977.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
5天再延10天嘛 淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應 包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15979.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16008.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不足之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動保價 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16010.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16019.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商 這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦 空肉飯嘛 滷肉飯 丁就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16023.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16048.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我跟委員報告您講的這七項本身那大致上應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說你算是有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話這個會來處理那解禁的部分我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16050.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16064.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16065.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16082.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都都在我們的方案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16082.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16095.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
因為葡萄園很清楚 新聞司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次駕駛差不多8公里後就可以出來了對不對你現在沒辦法出他還要接15天的治療現在還要接15天的治療那這麼低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16099.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16121.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
會基建大廈啦 基建大廈之後同樣地在大廈的環境裡面不要說地下人 人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛 對不對好 那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對 豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病 甚至於死亡好 那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16122.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16143.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
來做因應 甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對 然後那15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對 那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一 價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊 這點的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16146.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16165.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16166.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16187.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
好 謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝 謝謝部長辛苦好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國 趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答下一位我們請林楚英委員林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在下一位我們請圖文綺委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16196.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16224.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
好 謝謝主席那先請陳部長先請農業部陳部長陳部長那在10月26號記者會你本來說第二天就可以提出提出完整的完整的補助方案嘛那後來又說要改要一週所以是不是確定下週一可以提出完整的補助方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16225.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16241.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
我想我跟委員說明就是當初我記得沒有錯的話當初在這個方案裡面只針對一個小環節那我們後來考慮到就是整個豬產業不是只有特定的一個環節受到影響所以我才會請我們的同事 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16242.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16265.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
要把整個租的一級的產業鏈都把它評估出來那這樣的話我們在這個疫情期間受影響的這些從業人員我們才能夠讓他們有一些比較安心所以最快什麼時候這個禮拜六最慢這個禮拜六之前我們就會完整的方案做公佈因為整個方案的公佈還要經過行政院先同意因為需要一些經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16266.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16280.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
好 那而且昨天總質詢的時候本席有問到就是有請我們部長幫忙針對豬農短期飼料補助那部長好像也說這部分我想我們有納入我們的方案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16281.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16300.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
有纳入我们的方案里面有纳入所以也希望因为这次非洲猪瘟也来得很快台湾这次碰到这样也对猪农有很大的影响我们希望这补助公布的速度也要快然后尽量补助能够全面来减少猪农这么大的损失 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16300.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16317.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
我剛才說了我們就是在租產業鏈的一級生產鏈我們都會來協助處理所以盡量層面做大嘛減少他們的損失那還有我們非洲豬瘟爆發到現在那我們10月27號 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16319.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16343.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我們有開了應變中心有開第39次的會議對不對因為應變中心我們每天開會議我們每天開10月27要開第39次嘛對不對我可能要確認一下好沒關係那後來網路上因為現在還沒有公佈說它非洲豬瘟的原因現在原因還沒有找到對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16344.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16370.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我想我們現在因為照整個案例場的一個一個權責是由台中市政府要進行疫調那台中市政府在疫調的過程中有一些必須釐清的所以還會不斷的去調查那美伊士的中央應變中心因為中央應變中心除了台中市以外是全台灣各縣市的所有的農業行政的首長或代表會參加那他們也在一直在關心整個案情的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16371.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16398.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
所以我們會把相關的這些工作會跟我們的工作會議裡面去會討論跟處理我們也希望這個原因趕快找出來不然其實現在網路上因為民眾很恐慌那網路上也議論紛紛一下說越南配偶也有說陸配也有人說什麼為了萊豬的進口那所以我們要找出這原因現在多久可以完成基因序列的定序 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16400.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16428.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
這個檢測什麼時候可以完成禮拜五禮拜五可以完成不過我要先跟委員報告基因定序完你也不能說這個是中國來的這個是越南來的這個沒有辦法它定序完只是說跟哪一國的株枝基因序列相似這個有它的複雜性因為你要做比對的時候一定要那個國家把它的基因序列上網我們才能夠比對可是很可惜的中國的所有的基因序列它都不上網 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16429.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16445.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
不上网的话你就没有办法比对所以没有办法核对所以我们只知道这个基因的序列那可能这个基因里面可能是不是有一些有一些重组或其他的部分对这个了解所以就算定序之后也没有办法证明是哪一个国家没有办法证明这没办法证明 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16446.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16475.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
那到時候這個原因可能還是不容易找到真的因為肥肉豬瘟有可能是出於有可能是人的接觸有沒有到國外的案場有沒有發病的這些場 畜牧場然後從這個衣服或是什麼東西攜帶進來的都有可能啦所以我們必須要用排除的方式也好或用確認的方式也好去釐清對 因為我們也是希望這個發生的原因盡量找到以後才有辦法去遏止 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16476.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16492.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
對 我們現在的疫調其實還有一個重點除了趕快找到可能的來源以外更重要就是說在這個疫調過程中可以瞭解我們整個防疫系統裡面哪一些還可以去做精進分解這個才是一個重點好 那我們現在染疫死亡的株質處理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16494.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16522.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
染疫就是一條染疫就是那一頭那其他的都是必死豬就是因為豬是在飼養過程中它可能因為管理不當或者可能其他的疾病那這些疾病都不是法定的傳染病的部分那一般來講是可以送到化製廠或者是焚燒也可以或者是掩埋有它的三種模式然後根據它當地本身的條件而決定但是我要再強調它不是非洲豬瘟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16523.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16551.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
並必死豬因為非洲豬瘟的必死豬只有一條就是我們現在發現的就是檢測那其他的不是其他的現在我們在疫調的過程中發現的那都是必死豬就是說不是感染而引起的死亡的蜘蛛但是我們去抽檢都是陰性它都不是非洲豬瘟所以目前查到有非洲豬瘟死亡的只有一頭就是檢測的只有一條那其他的其他的還沒有檢測出來對 那個場全部撲殺嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16553.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16572.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
全部扑殺所以其他的場域我們檢測出來的有沒有我們在公布的時候檢測出來的都是一般的正常的有疾病的死亡但是不是非洲豬瘟染病而死亡的所以那個場的全部扑殺之後最後是掩埋是不是對 那個是因為緊急扑殺而掩埋 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16572.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16599.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那掩埋的地點應該 後來應該都有管理吧沒有 這個掩埋地點就是其實在平常的規劃裡面就已經確認在那個地點了因為非洲豬屋我們有一個團隊中央應變中心一直持續在溫州從108年開始 我們沒有間斷每年都開三到四次會所以在那個時候就有預定了萬一有問題發生的時候在哪邊掩埋 掩埋怎麼掩埋的所有的程序都是按照那個方式來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16600.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16615.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
對 所以也管理好不會有以後再擴散的問題對 所以現在是鎖定在這個案場沒有其他外擴的跡象我們只能這樣講好 所以都是對掩埋場都有管理是好 那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16615.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16638.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
記得我們在2018年農業部好像就超前部署針對各種非洲豬瘟防疫管理措施好像就已經有超前部署所以到現在應該算一算也有7年了吧對那我們這7年到底做了什麼怎麼感覺非洲豬瘟一來好像大家很多事情還沒有準備好 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16639.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16664.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
我跟各位報告沒有跟委員報告就是我們在107年成立中央應變中心的時候我們就沒有說結束就一直持續著那在這個過程中其實因為台灣是沒有非洲豬瘟的疫區非洲豬瘟疫區所以都沒有非洲豬瘟的前提之下我們的重點是在邊境的防治防疫就是將病毒阻絕於境外那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16664.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16684.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
特別是針對我們的手提行李人員旅客的這些後送行李郵包郵件還有走私的茶器所以一直在強調這個所以我們在歷次的成果對外宣布的時候就是我們的確也檢測到一些高風險疫區來的這些肉製品是含有非肉質溫的病毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16685.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16702.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
所以我們是重點是在防疫就是阻絕於境外那這次是第一次我們發現到這個案例那這個案例本身其實我們有演練包括您剛才講的遇到了以後在哪邊哪邊去掩埋有沒有怎麼掩埋方法其實我們都有演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16703.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16725.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
對 所以我希望說居然從2018年我們就有再開始來做超前部署所以針對這些發生以後這些後續這些問題包含廚餘還有這些豬隻掩埋然後民眾該怎麼去應對應該要有一個指引不然民眾會造成相當的恐慌我想我們這個指引其實都有現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16726.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16751.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
比較看到比較一些比較弱的地方就是疫調的部分那其他的針對關聯廠的調查有沒有去採樣去檢測包括全國的我相信現在目前做的他們現在做的是還符合他們規定所以我也希望農業部在這一方面盡量多宣傳讓民眾去了解有些不必要的恐慌避免民眾因為不了解造成恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16751.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16774.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那所以有一些指引民眾該怎麼去面對 怎麼去處理怎麼面對 還是說怎麼去觀察的外觀等等應該要教育一下我們的民眾對 我想分兩個層次一個層次是消費者 一個層次是豬農那消費者就是放心的吃豬肉很多人 現在很多影片說現在可能這個豬肉吃了會怎樣我覺得這個是錯假訊息 我們一直在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16774.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16784.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
對 所以這個就是該教育的對 那個另外一個部分是豬籠的部分那豬籠的部分本身的這些可能疑似案例跟那個胸腺肺炎 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16786.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16804.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
圖卡的部分我們都有給豬農去做這些判試加獎他們的判試所以我說居然從2018我們就開始有超前部署像這些我們當初已經有規劃的包含豬農消費者的部分一定要先讓他們知道對 我們持續在做謝謝委員提醒好 那我們現在因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16805.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16835.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
非洲豬瘟它有潛伏期冷凍豬肉可以100天冷藏豬肉100天冷凍豬肉可以到1000天那我們現在擔心是說你15天的禁令萬一15天以後又還有是不是15天又15天那這個時間是不是會一直延長下去我們在整個處理這個應變的部分就是這個案例場發生發生我們用15天的禁運的目的就是說可能的傳播鏈我們要把它截斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16836.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16850.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
這樣的話我們去找除了這個案例場以外其他的案例場有沒有同時發生那第一輪的疫調裡面我們很幸運的覺得說這個案例場並沒有擴散的跡象但是現在還在潛伏期不敢這樣百分之百想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16851.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16865.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
因為我們現在擔心說我們現在是禁宅禁運而且禁用廚餘嘛那所以現在禁用廚餘我相信今天大家都討論很多廚餘的部分怎麼去處理所以這一部分可能要請我們環境部彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16867.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16886.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
好 那陳部長 那你就請回我問一下彭部長請彭部長 副委員好好 彭部長 那針對我們廚餘去化的方式其實昨天本席有總諮詢問行政院院長其實他也說他不滿意現在廚餘的處理方式那請問部長有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16887.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16910.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
包委員因為我必須感謝過去養豬可以解決很多廚藝的問題未來不管這個廚藝怎麼去去化這個廚藝可不可以拿來養豬其實現在其實我覺得還是有一些更好的方法如果說還是有珍珠的一個方式的話珍珠中心是一種方式但是如何對於現有的珍珠能夠加強監控這是我們可以做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16910.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16928.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那如果未來廚藝不養豬它可能是要有一段時間那這個時候就要想辦法把廚藝的例如說生殖能源 黑水盲或是各種堆肥的所謂的量能把它盤點算出來要有一段時間我們是鼓勵這樣的措施的對 但是我們現在大部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16929.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16952.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
現在那麼多處理好像很多都是用掩埋的方式處理對不對目前在緊急狀況下有些縣市它的量能不夠他只好用掩埋的方式做處理所以行政院長對於就是因為現在大部分都用掩埋方式所以他是不埋沒有 委員大概就是台中啦台中是比較多啦那台中也宣布說他們用現在要進到焚化廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16953.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16979.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
那部長剛剛也有提到那就是生殖能處理廠還有真主中心等等都是一個很好的方式那現在因為現在發生這個事情之後我相信現在連地方政府大家都非常的重視那是不是環境部針對我們生殖能處理廠還有真主中心是不是能夠支持甚至補助經費讓他們去做這些的設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16980.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16999.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
報告委員 這個其實不見得是我們要經費補助這個經過一些設計 生態系的建立之後其實是可以用BOT的方式能夠建立起來像桃園的那個生殖能中心就是這樣的一個案例不見得是政府要拿很多錢出來對啊 那至少要怎麼去輔導他們去做我們是期待有更多但是跟委員報告 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17000.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17022.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
像這樣的措施很容易變成是嫌惡設施所以這個部分也希望跟民眾那當然地方政府一定要有這個意願能夠來做不然的話我們想做也做不出來好 所以針對這部分現在非洲豬瘟發生大家就重視到廚藥的問題所以希望部長我們來加速來嚴寧怎麼樣處理廚藥的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17024.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17041.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
那這些我們該怎麼去輔導他去做生殖能處理場怎麼去輔導他去做珍珠中心我相信環境部還是要大力的去推動去支持是是沒問題好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝謝彭導那接下來請楊耀文來做詢問好謝謝主席主席請一下彭部長來有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17055.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17084.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
養委員好部長好部長我們根據環管署地方環保機關持續加強查緝機查廚餘再利用檢核養豬場計畫有這一個計畫就是要求廚餘養豬場必須要按時上傳廚餘的相關資料是對不對是那他假如沒有按照規定呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17085.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17108.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
上傳就是地方政府必須要每個月去積查是那現在有一個問題同時我們部裡面也要進行抽查是這個計畫裡面的規定我有幾個問題我想要問一下就是我看先前 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17110.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17136.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
前進應變所的記者會部長有說調閱相關的資料就案發養豬場在5月的時候上傳了24次6月8次 7月1次6月8次 7月1次 8月0次就表示說它是嚴重的違規了那台中市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17137.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17163.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
就是它違規以後按照我們計畫的規定是地方政府必須要每個月稽查結果台中市政府只有在五月跟七月各稽核一次那我想要請問一下六月沒有稽核我們部裡面知道嗎我們是事後會去列出這個資料才知道可是六月到現在也有一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17164.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17184.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
我們其實那時候知道就是說一直提醒他然後我們系統上有一些警示所以我們就會提醒他一定要去集合可是因為這個主管還是地方政府所以他必須負起這個責任當然 現在就是說已經到了像7月 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17185.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17210.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
一整個月只有一次然後八月零次這個就是已經到了類似不管的狀態了那我現在的問題是台中市政府當然對於這樣子的養豬場查核是有問題的這個沒有爭論因為最少他六月跟八月沒有去查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17212.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17222.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
可是計畫裡面也賦予環境部可以去進行抽查我們當初為什麼會沒有去抽查我們來 請問副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17225.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17246.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
跟委員報告 這個我們山區中心那個就是要有一個稽查的比例 抽查的比例3%那我們去查了一下1213到114我們這個抽查都是有按照這個3%的比例去抽查對啦 我知道 我是說你們這3% |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17250.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17273.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
要選擇抽查哪一個廚餘養豬場你們有沒有一定的標準譬如說像我現在看到資料我就覺得案發的養豬場其實是就上傳資料的部分來看是非常嚴重的違規然後你們也知道地方政府沒有去稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17274.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17291.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
為什麼抽查的時候沒有抽查到這一家啦我的意思是這樣子我們請我們那個司法部好 報告委員這一家剛好就是三個中心在抽查的時候沒有抽查到 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17296.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17317.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
對 當然我現在不是在追究責任就是說抽查的定義本來就跟稽查不一樣所以你們剛才講的3%的比例這個3% 5%這種比例大家都接受那我是不是建議一下就是以後像這種很 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17318.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17340.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
就是從資料來看就看得出來很有問題的應該要列為優先的對象啦不要太隨機啦我知道你們現在大概因為抽查嘛抽查就是要說就是從公平上來看或者是便宜形式來看都是隨意嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17341.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17358.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
我現在的建議是說以後針對這一種這個就是從紙面上的資料就看得出來它有異常也報告委員因為這個的真主的主管機關還是地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17360.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17388.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那我們是提供這個平台讓地方可以去做這個抽查 積查的這個機會所以地方呢最重要的是他隔月一定要去積查然後輔導他改善那這家其實我覺得目前我看到的是要從1月開始就很大的異常了啦所以我是覺得希望說未來跟委員報告因為我們有一個計畫如果未來還是要去做真主的話那每一個廠他勢必要有一個更及時連線的用科學的方法及時的去解決這個是我們未來要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17389.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17417.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
部長我還是要說明一下當然地方政府最主要的責任在地方政府這個沒有爭議不過問題發生了就沒有中央地方的之分我是看你們這個計畫裡面計畫也是你們訂的你們也有賦予自己應該要做的工作是抽查我現在的建議是說以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17419.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17441.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
當然你們不可能每一家都稽查啦不過以後不要用隨機就是問題我說真的啦整體性這麼嚴重的一個問題發生最主要的事務處理還是在中央政府啦 對不對那假如說事前我們有發現到 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17445.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17472.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
很嚴重的不正常的養豬場也好 垃圾場也好應該要優先抽查啦我的意思是這樣子我們會修改相關的辦法沒有任何究責的意思啦只是說觀念上可能要改變一下因為我看這個養豬場就是從書面就是任何外行的人看 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17473.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17492.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
抽查都應該會選他部長剛剛既然講了要用更科學的方法來做監測假如說我們還是要使用廚餘來養豬那我就也談一下因為時間的關係我就問最後一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17497.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17520.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
如果越科學像譬如說台中市的環保局就表示說本案的豬籠年長不按網路操作這個我覺得這個是事實啦因為我住在很偏鄉的地方我相信很多長者對於網路新的科技對他們來講可能比 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17521.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17545.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
比事業本身的挑戰更大那現在都有這個問題了以後部長要再更科技那怎麼來克服這個問題我的意思就是說怎麼讓業者或者是被規範者來配合我們的政策你總是要 他不是心態上配合是說怎麼讓他可以上手 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17547.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17568.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
我們未來是他不用來拍照上傳直接我們有這個溫度計在鍋爐裡面還有CCTV直接指的這個鍋爐他有沒有操作我們都可以清楚甚至用AI的方式辨別他有沒有違法我們是希望這樣做這個你們在建制上沒有問題目前我們已經有測試一個廠那目前沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17569.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17587.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
那我覺得假如是用這種方法就可以很完整的解決很多問題他也不用再上船嘛因為我們可能建設中心我們就看得到嘛 對不對那對於朱龍來講也不用最少不會因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17590.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17599.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
知識跟技術上它可能造成很大的困擾沒錯 就是以後不管年紀了就是會有這樣的制度來完成這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17600.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17624.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
好 那我最後還是因為有一些問題沒有辦法問不過我還是要提醒一下部長就是說假如說我們目前的廚餘去化量假如說真的政策上是停止廚餘養豬那怎麼做好相關的應變 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17628.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17633.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
這個部裡面要先事先講好 好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝委員的指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17639.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17663.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
好 謝謝 那本的會議詢問全部結束委員吳佩奕 劉徐庭 盧憲一 何欣淳所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做一下決定第一 報告及詢問完畢第二 委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從期鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17664.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17679.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
那專題報告到此結束現在休息到下午2點那在本會會議室進行職業安全衛生法部門條文修正草案等31案之主條討論非法案相關的相關列席人員可先行離席好我們的專題報告到此結束然後下午2點在本 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17693.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17700.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17741.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17745.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17758.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17758.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
20103.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
20130.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
好 現在繼續開會 請議事人員宣讀本市新增提案條文內容若有修正動議 請一併宣讀職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案委員王振旭等23人 委員吳佩奕等19人委員莊瑞雄等16人 委員林月琴等21人委員林淑芬等21人 委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人 委員黃潔等16人委員蔡奕宇等17人 委員陳聽飛等16人提案條文對照表 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
20131.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
20157.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
委員林月琴等二十一人提案第一條守據為為防止職業災害及勞動場所發生不法侵害予以現行法同委員林月琴等二十一人提案第二條增列第五七八九款如下五事業單位人員指僱主各級主管受僱勞工及其他受工作場所負責人指揮或監督從事勞動之人員其彼此間之職務存有平行上對下或下對上之關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
20159.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
20184.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
七 勞動場所 指於勞動契約程序中由僱主指揮使勞工履行契約提供勞務之場所自營作業者實際從事勞動之場所及其他受工作場所負責人指揮或監督從事勞動之人員實際從事勞動之場所八 工作場所 指勞動場所中接受僱主或代理僱主指示處理有關勞工事務之人所能支配管理之場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
20185.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
20206.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
9 作業場所 指工作場所中從事特定工作目的之場所現行第五款 疑為第六款 予以現行法同委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡奕宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人 委員莊瑞雄等16人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第九條 予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
20207.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
20222.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
委員王振旭等23人提案第15條之一第一項及第二項與委員羅廷威等18人提案同第三項及第四項如下事業單位應使前項施工者依施工計畫書確實執行並指派人員或委託專業機構監督及查證 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
20224.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
20242.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
前三項一定規模以上工程範圍分析與評估方法安全衛生圖說與規範之內容工程規劃設計安全分析報告與施工計畫書內容要項人員或專業機構之資格條件監督及查證內容及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
20243.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
20271.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員徐富奎等16人提案新增第15條之一與委員羅廷威等18人提案同委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人提案新增第15條之一與原版同委員王正旭等23人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第22條與原版同委員林淑芬等21人提案第22條 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
20272.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
20283.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
第三項如下第一項勞工健康服務人員專業機構之資格勞工健康之保護與管理及其他應遵行事項之規則由中央主管機關定之予以願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
20284.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
20311.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員林月琴等二十一人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人委員黃潔等十六人提案新增第二章之一職場霸凌之防治委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第二十二條之一與原版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
20312.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
20331.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
委員林月琴的二十一人提案新增第二十二條之一第一項第二句為因事業單位人員利用職務或權勢關係倒數第四句為孤立或侮辱等言詞或行為與與願反同委員黃潔等十六人提案新增第二十二條之一第一項及第二項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
20332.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
20352.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
颁发所称职场霸凌指劳工与执行职务因其事业单位人员及具共同作业或业务往来关系人员利用职务权势或业务往来关系持续以冒犯威胁冷落孤立侮辱或其他不当之言词或行为致其身心健康遭受危害但情节重大者不以持续发生为必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
20352.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
20372.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
本法第二章之一所稱僱主細指事業主或事業之經營負責人代表僱主行使管理權之人或代表僱主處理有關受僱者事務之人視同僱主要派單位使用派遣勞工時視為第22條之一至第22條之四規定之僱主第三項與院版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
20373.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
20391.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
委員王振旭等二十三人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳廷飛等十六人委員邱振勳等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第二十二條之二與願版同委員林淑芬等二十一人提案新增第二十二條之二第一項第一款第一目及第二目如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
20392.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
20415.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
瓜湖一採行避免申訴人受職場霸凌情形再度發生之保護措施瓜湖二是申訴人需求及事件情節提供相關諮詢及協助第二款第四目如下瓜湖四一被霸凌勞工意願提供相關諮詢協助及保護措施予以願反同委員林月琴等21人提案第 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
20415.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
20430.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
新增第二十二條之二第一項第二款第三四目同院版第四三目第三項後段如下經調查認定屬職場霸凌成立之案件亦應將處理結果於該網站登錄之第四項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
20431.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
20452.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
故主依第一項所為適當措施前項資訊登錄方式與前條第二項後段應訂定之防制措施及規範內容應包括職場大臨之樣態預防事項教育訓練申訴管道調查與處理程序及人員組成懲戒處理及其他相關措施其準則由中央主管機關定之予與院辦同 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
20455.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
20477.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
委員黃婕等16人提案新增第22條之二第一項序文後段為分號被霸凌勞工及行為人分屬不同事業單位且聚共同作業或業務往來關係者及該行為人之雇主一同第一款第二目及第二款第三目刪除頓號法律諮詢之文字第二款第四目如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
20479.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
20502.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
刮鬍子一被霸凌勞工意願提供必要之協助及保護措施並應適度調整工作內容或工作場所其餘第一項與委員范雲等18人提案之第一項同第二項如下雇主因與受理申訴後二個月內完成調查必要時得延長之延長以二次為限每次不得於一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
20503.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
20521.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
並應通知申訴人被申訴人第三項及第四項與院版第二項及第三項同第五項首句為僱主依前四項所為之適當措施第四句為與前條第三項各款應訂定之防治措施及規範與與院版第四項同 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
20523.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
20543.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
委員王振旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案新政第22條之三與原版同委員林月琴等21人提案新政第22條之三第一項續文及第二項與委員范雲等18人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
20544.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
20558.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
第一項第一款及第二款如下一 被申訴人為最高負責人或雇主二 雇主未依第22條之二第一項受理申訴案件或受霸凌勞工不服雇主所為之調查或懲戒結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
20560.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
20580.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
第三項至第八項如下地方主管機關為調查第一項第一款及第二款之申訴案件得為請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理地方主管機關受理第一項第二款是由之申訴案件除為事實之調查並因為僱主有無違反第二十二條之二個款規定之調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
20580.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
20594.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
地方主管機關經調查結果認定第一項第一款第二款申訴事由成立得令行為人之雇主於一定期限內採取必要之處置但情節重大者得依具備霸凌勞工之意願提供訴訟協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
20596.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
20619.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
地方主管機關依本法規定進行調查時申訴人被申訴人及受邀協助之個人或單位應與配合並提供相關資料被申訴人不得規避妨礙或拒絕有關地方主管機關受理職場霸凌申訴與最高負責負責人之範圍申訴處理程序調查方式訴訟協助及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
20620.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
20646.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
第一項但書所訂備申訴人為政府機關構之最高負責人時勞工應向其上期機關構提起申訴委員黃婕等16人提案新增第22條之三第五項倒數第二句增列文字頓號申付程序與與願版同委員黃婕等16人提案新增第22條之四第一項與委員范雲等18人提案同第二項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
20647.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
20657.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
申訴案件經僱主或直轄市或縣市主管機關調查後認定為職場霸凌且情節重大者僱主得於知悉該調查結果之日起30日內不經預告終止勞動契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
20661.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
20683.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
委員王振旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第23條語願版同委員王振旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易瑜等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第24條語願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
20685.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
20709.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
委員王振旭等23人提案第26條第一項如下事業單位以其事業交付承攬時應於事前就交付承攬之事業實施風險評估將有關工作環境危害因素與因採取之安全衛生設備及措施等評估結果告知該承攬人並於承攬期間使承攬人依評估結果確實執行第二項及第三項與院版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
20710.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
20733.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
委員林淑芬等21人 委員蔡宇宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳亭菲等16人 委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第26條與原版同委員王振旭等23人 提案第27條 第一項增列第5款如下五 機械設備器具及人員之進場管制 現行第5款 已為第6款 與原版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
20734.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
20744.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
委員林旭彬等二十一人委員蔡易玉等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第二十七條語願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
20746.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
20775.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
委員王振旭等二十三人 委員林淑芬等二十一人 委員蔡易宇等十七人 委員吳佩儀等十九人 委員陳亭飛等十六人 委員邱振軍等二十二人 委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第二十七條之一與願反同委員王振旭等二十三人 委員蔡易宇等十七人 委員吳佩儀等十九人 委員陳亭飛等十六人 委員邱振軍等二十二人 委員徐富奎等十六人提案第三十二條與願反同委員林淑芬等二十一人提案第三十二條第三項刪除平建二字與願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
20776.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
20789.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
委員王振旭等23人委員蔡易宇等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳婷菲等16人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐富奎等16人提案第39條與原版同委員林淑芬等21人提案第39條第6項莫具為應付舉證責任與原版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
20795.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
20817.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
委員林月琴等21人提案第39條第一項第一款如下一事業單位違反本法有關安全衛生或職場霸凌防治之規定第二項如下主管機關或勞動檢查機構為確認雇主依本法所應採取之相關措施得實施調查第三項莫具為並得委請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理與與院辦同 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
20820.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
20840.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
委員黃婕等16人提案第39條第一項與院版同第二項如下主管機關或勞動檢查機構為確認雇主依本法所應採取之預防及相關處置措施得實施調查第三項莫具第三個字為違與與院版第三項同第四項與院版第四項同 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
20841.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
20850.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
委員王振旭等二十三人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳廷飛等十六人委員戳政軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十條與願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
20852.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
20872.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
委員林淑芬等二十一人提案第四十條第一項第三句為處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑予與院板同委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易瑜等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳廷飛等十六人委員邱振軍等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十一條與院板同 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
20873.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
20900.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
委員王真旭等二十三人提案第四十三條第一項第四款如下四違反第十五條之一第一項至第三項第二十三條第一項第二十六條第二十七條第二十七條之一第一項第二項第二十八條第三十二條第一項規定至發生第三十七條第二項之災害予以願反同委員林淑芬等二十一人提案第四十三條第一項續文第二句為處新台幣五萬元以上三百萬元以下罰還予以願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
20901.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
20926.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
委員蔡易瑜等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人 委員徐富奎等16人提案第43條與院版同委員林月清等21人提案第44條第一項第三款第二句刪除文字後段二字 第五款句末為並得按次處罰 第二項守據為有前項規定行為之一者與與院版第43條同 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
20929.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
20946.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
委員黃婕等16人提案第43條第一項第二款與委員范雲等18人提案第一項第二款前段同第三款第二據為第22條之一第三項後段或第22條之二第一項規定與委員范雲等18人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
20947.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
20968.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人 委員蔡奕宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳亭菲等16人 委員邱振鈞等22人 委員徐富奎等16人 提案第44條 語願版同委員林月琴等21人 提案第1項前段刪除文字第9條 第2項頓好 第1 2 4項莫拒違 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
20973.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
20999.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
並得按次處罰 予以願版第44條同委員王振旭等23人提案第45條第一項第二款手具文字為違反第15條之一第一項至第三項予以願版同委員林淑芬等21人 委員蔡奕宇等17人委員吳佩儀等19人 委員陳廷飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人提案第45條予以願版同委員林月琴等21人提案第45條第一項第一款文字如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
21000.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
21029.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
第二十二條之一第二項後面兩個字後段刪除第二款如下二違反第十五條之一第一項第二項第十七條第十八條第三項第二十二條之二第一項第一款第二十六條至第二十八條第二十九條第三項第三十三條或第三十九條第四項其規定第二項守據為有前項規定行為之一者予以願反同委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十五條第一項第一款據莫增列 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
21030.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
21041.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
逗號並得按次處罰予與院本同委員黃婕等16人提案第45條第一項第一款如下違反第6條第二項第12條第4項第20條第一項第二項第21條第一項第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
21044.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
21060.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
第二十二條第一項第二十二條之一第三項後段第二十二條之二第一項第二款第二項第四項第二十三條第一項第三十二條第一項第三十四條第一項或第三十八條之規定經通知限期改善 借期未改善予以委員范雲等十八人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
21061.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
21085.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
委員王真旭等23人委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳亭飛等16人委員邱振軍等22人提案第46條與院版同委員林月琴等21人提案第48條第一項第三項同院版第46條第一項及第4項第二項及第4項如下違反第24條第二項第三項之規定者處新台幣1萬元以上5萬元以下罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
21087.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
21113.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
第一項採處全時效自地方主管機關收受申訴人一第二十二條之三第一項但書規定提起申訴之日起算委員徐富奎等十六人提案第四十六條第一項據莫增列分號情節重大者處十萬元以上五百萬元以下罰款予與院辦同委員黃婕等十六人提案第四十六條第一項及第二項與委員范雲等十八人提案同第三項如下第一項採處全時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
21116.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
21122.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
自直轄市或縣市主管機關收受申訴人一第二十二條之三第一項但書規定提起申訴之日起算 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
21124.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
21150.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人 委員邱振鈞等22人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第48條 語願版同委員林月晴等21人 提案第46條 語願版第48條同委員王振旭等23人 委員林淑芬等21人委員蔡易宇等17人 委員吳佩儀等19人委員陳廷飛等16人 委員邱振鈞等22人委員徐富奎等16人 提案第49條 語願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
21153.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
21179.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振鈞等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案第五十一條語願版同委員王振旭等二十三人委員林淑芬等二十一人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員吳佩儀等十九人委員陳婷菲等十六人委員邱振鈞等二十二人委員徐富奎等十六人提案新增第五十一條之一語願版同繼續宣讀修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
21182.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
21202.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
修正動議二第22條之三受雇者或求職者遭受職場霸凌因向雇主提起申訴但有下列情形之一者得盡向地方主管機關提起申訴一被申訴人屬最高負責人或雇用人二雇主為處理或不服被申訴人之雇主所為調查或懲戒結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
21202.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
21229.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
勞工依前項但書規定向直轄市或縣市主管機關提起申訴之期限因依下列規定辦理一自職場霸凌行為終了時逾三年者不予受理二職場霸凌事件發生時勞工在職者其得於離職之日起一年內申訴但依前款規定有較長申訴期限者得起從其規定直轄市或縣市主管機關會調查第一項申訴案件得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
21233.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
21248.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
第22条之四受雇者或求职者因遭受职场霸凌受有财产或非财产上损害者由雇主及行为人连带负损害赔偿责任但雇主证明其以遵行本法所定之各项防治职场霸凌之规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
21249.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
21267.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
且对该事情之发生以尽力防止人不免发生者雇主不负损害赔偿责任如被害人依前项但疏之规定不能受损害赔偿时法院因其申请的斟酌雇主与被害人之经济状况令雇主为全部或一部之损害赔偿 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
21268.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
21294.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
僱主賠償損害時對於職場霸凌行為人有求償權被害人因遭受職場霸凌治身法律訴訟與受司法機關通知到庭期間僱主應給予公價行為人因職場霸凌因第一項規定負損害賠償責任者法院得因被害人之請求依侵害情節著定損害額一倍至三倍之懲罰性賠償金前項行為人為最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
21294.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
21323.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
负责人或雇佣人被害人得请求损害而三倍至五倍之惩罚性赔偿金第22条之五受雇者或求职者因雇主违反第22条之二第一项之义务受有损害者雇主应负赔偿责任第22条之六前两条情形受雇者或求职者虽非财产上之损害亦得请求赔偿相当至今而其名誉 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
21323.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
21344.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
被侵害者并得请求回复名誉之事当处分第二十二条之七第二十二条之五至第二十二条之五之损害赔偿请求权自请求权人之有损害及赔偿义务人时期二年二年内不行使而消灭 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
21345.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
21367.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
自有職場霸凌行為或違反各該規定之行為時期與實聯者一同提案委員陳金輝蘇清泉廖偉祥修正動議三第十五條之一事業單位將一定規模以上之工程交付規劃設計時應依其工程特性分析潛在施工危害編制安全衛生圖說及規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
21370.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
21394.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
量化编列安全卫生费用并制作工程规划设计安全分析报告事业单位将前项工程交付施工时应使该施工者于事前依工程规划设计安全分析报告评估施工风险采取必要之预防设备及措施纳入施工计划书并确实执行前二项一定规模以上工程范围分析与评估方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
21394.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
21413.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
安全衛生圖說與規範之內容工程規劃涉及安全分析報告與施工計劃書內容要項及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之提案人廖偉翔委員連署人陳委員金輝王委員喻敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
21416.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
21430.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
修正動議四第十五條之一事業單位將一定規模以上之工程較複規劃設計時因應其工程特性分析潛在施工危害編織安全衛生圖說及規範量化編列安全衛生 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
21431.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
21461.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
費用並製作工程規劃設計安全分析報告事業單位將前項工程交付施工時應時該施工者於事前依工程規劃設計安全分析報告評估施工風險採取必要之日預防設備及措施納入施工計劃書並確實執行前任項一定規模工程分析與評估方法分析報告與施工計劃書內容要項及其他應遵行事項之辦法由莊主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
21462.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
21488.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
提案人 劉委員 建國 連署人 王委員 鄭旭 陳委員 吟 林委員 岳勤宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員第一位是王俊旭 王委員再來是林岳勤 林委員林署 林委員陳昭芝 陳委員謝謝然後勞動部部長 洪聖翰 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
21490.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
21509.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
治安署署長林立堂 勞動及職業安全衛生研究所所長王厚誠謝謝 勞動條件及就業評審司司長黃齊亞勞動保護司司長胡惠芝還有我們公務人員保障暨培訓委員會安衛防護處處長蔡憲維謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
21512.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
21536.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
行政院公共工程委員會工程管理處檢任計政江鵬謝謝還有行政院人事行政總處綜合公約處專門委員陳怡君謝謝內政部國土署都市基礎工程組副組長趙啟鴻謝謝然後國土署建築管理組科長廖志明謝謝消防署綜合企劃組檢任視察溫惠周謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
21539.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
21562.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
國防部資源規劃師科技企劃處副處長薛勝吉教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶國民及學前教育署專門委員林如龍經濟部產業發展署副處長潘建成水利署副處長吳明坤 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
21565.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
21580.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
國營事業管理師科長王啟明還有辰月園區管理局副組長蘇弘毅謝謝中小企業署副組長林玉琦交通部綜合規劃師檢任秘書楊茂森還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
21585.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
21604.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
衛生福利部 國民健康署 社區健康組研究員 麥陽俊心理健康師專門委員 洪佳基數位發展部 數位產業署 檢證市長 黃國源法務部 我們參事 王楠君好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
21607.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
21619.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
好本次交互之提案請進行提案說明不吝作詢答那現在來請新增提案委員說明提案要職每位委員兩分鐘第一位請王振旭王委員來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
21629.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
21646.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
謝謝主席包括感謝在現場的林淑雯委員 林慧琼委員 楊亮委員還有陳昭志委員還有現場所有的官員本席這次針對治安法的提案是以行政院版為基礎但特別增加三個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
21647.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
21664.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
首先就是为了要确保施工计划书的确实执行我们在第15条之一增加第三项规定要求事业单位一定要指派人员或委托专业的这个机构来监督施工计划书的执行与落实以善信工程业主采购及履约管理的责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
21665.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
21686.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
再來這是第26條當中為了明確事業單位的承攬管理責任我們也增加要求事業單位在交付承攬前應該要對承攬廠商進行風險評估並提供承攬廠商有關案件的工作環境危害因素及應採取工地安全衛生措施等資訊好讓承攬的包商能夠做好公安而且在承攬期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
21687.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
21706.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
事業單位應該要持續監督來確保這個承攬廠商確實落實公安最後考量現在這個營造工程交付承攬的情況越來越複雜所以這個工作場所當然會有混同或共同作業的情形為了要強化工地施工安全的管理我們也在第27條當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
21708.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
21732.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
來要求原事業單位應該要負起工地場所機械設備器具以及人員進出的管制責任希望透過工地門禁管理機制的強化來減少災害的發生同時我們要針對於這個事業單位如果有違反前三項規定的時候都應該有相應的這個法則此外我們也提出附帶的決議要求勞動部應該在執法當中明文處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
21734.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
21761.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
職場霸凌外部調查員的利益迴避的規範以確保職場霸凌調查程序的公平跟公正還有我們也要求勞動部要強化僱主對於第三方不法侵害的防治的義務像如果有病患有侵害到這個醫護人權等情形勞動部也應該要在這個職安法相關的執法或執行裡面強化僱主應採取的這個保護措施以維護勞工的身心健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
21762.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
21773.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
那再麻煩各位委員能夠多支持謝謝好謝謝黃委員的提案說明接下來請提案委員林業勤委員來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
21781.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
21796.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
主席各位同仁這次我所提出的職業安全衛生法的修法我要強調這一版的核心精神是要讓我們的防止職場霸凌正式成為法律義務而不是只是行政指導過去十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
21796.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
21821.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
劳动部虽然有定出不法侵害的预防指引但那只是建议没有法律拘束力也就是说雇主就算不做政府也拿他没有办法结果就是劳工在被霸凌之后往往无处申诉也得不到保护我提出的这个版本就是要把这个缺口补起来第一把防止职场不法侵害明确写进我们的立法墓地 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
21821.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
21836.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
第二 增訂職場霸凌專章清楚定義什麼叫做職場霸凌要求僱主要負起預防的責任要設立申訴機制調查程序 懲處規範不要再模糊了第三 也設立外部的申訴機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
21838.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
21854.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
当加害人是最高负责人的时候或雇主根本不处理时劳工可以直接向地方主管机关申诉情节重大者还能获得法律协助我版本上还有一个特色我们不只在谈肢体安全也把心理跟人格尊严 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
21855.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
21877.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
纳入到我们的劳动安全的范围霸凌不见得有外伤他一样会毁掉一个人所以这版修法就是要让尊严也成为正常安全的一部分最后明定罚者的部分如果雇主违反我们的防治义务责任的话那最高负责人本身就是加害人最高可以处罚到100万元这不是只是罚钱而是态度的改变 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
21877.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
21896.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
職場安全不只是防止受害也要防止傷人這是我提出的修法版本的目標讓每一個工作者都能在安全又有尊嚴的職場當中工作還請我們的立法院同仁能夠支持 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林署務委員來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
21905.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
21929.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
那有鉴於近年的重大職災的發生並沒有明顯的下降特別是大家都知道的營造工程的領域高空墜落等等仍然是這個死傷最嚴重的那其主要的原因其中當然包括工程在規劃設計階段缺乏風險評估機制施工現場的安全衛生管理還有勞工教育的訓練都沒有落實導致勞工有很多的傷亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
21930.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
21950.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
現行的職安法裏面採取的規範顯有不足自使未能有效的嚇阻不肖的雇主事業單位也常有忽視法令的情勢未能確實履行職安法所定的管理責任導致勞工暴露於高風險的作業環境且情節嚴重者恐有公共安全之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
21951.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
21973.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
進而危及社會大眾的生命安全那為了強化雇主的防災意識和法尊的這個責任然後進而保障我們勞工的這個職業安全我們就這個將最低的刑度及這個提高罰款的金額的必要都給他予以增訂予以修訂所以希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
21974.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
21998.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
在有效的嚇阻之下嚴蠢之下能夠讓我們的職災可以降低好 謝謝現在來進行職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等31案之主條討論那我們還是以行政院提案調適為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著我們就請委員來表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
22004.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
22031.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
好 現在進行主要討論 第一輪討論時 凡該條次無行政院版本且提案委員均不在 則予保留那第二輪則維持現行的這個法條條文或不予增訂那現在進行委員李崑澤版第一條的條文審查 那提案委員上有林月琴委員還有黃秀芳委員主席提案委員如果不在我們是不是不予保留 直接就繼續討論下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
22033.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
22057.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
對啊 是 但是這一條有提案委員在啊 寧願請委員在啊對 就這樣 我才會念一次好 我就保留了啦或是不予處理的 不在不用保留啊他不在他都不在乎了 我們幹嘛要保留條文有在場的委員有在我就處理 然後他不在就保留這樣啦不是啦 不在為什麼要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
22058.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
22087.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
這邊寫的 這議事組給我的啊又不要照他的念啊很多人只是為了抄一抄而已啊我當然照他的念啊我當然會照他 議事組給我念議事組如果沒有錯我照他的念沒有問題啊那就是你的意思不是照他的念這不是我寫的啊怎麼是我的意思不是啦 就是你這個是議事組寫的你怎麼去講是我的意思我怎麼可能叫議事組去寫這種東西呢提案的當事人不在那你要可以詢問我們委員會說過去都是這麼處理啦那議事組給我這樣我就照這樣念嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
22090.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
22093.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
請行政單位來做表示意見大家都知道他都不來了我們為什麼要保留請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
22104.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
22124.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
好 趙偉維各位委員大家好那有關第一條的部分李昆哲委員這個部分希望說在目前的我們的第一條的立法意旨裡面在工作者的安全跟健康裡面加上身心那我們評估的結果其實我們目前的這個立法的意旨這個工作者的安全跟健康範圍比較廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
22126.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
22143.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
因為依照WHO的建議健康的定義是包括到身體 心理跟社會三方面我們建議可以保留現行的行政院版另外林月琴委員提到的在第一段的部分防止職業災害及勞動場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
22144.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
22172.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
這個發生不法侵害的部分那其實在目前的我們防止職業災害的部分在職業災害定義裡面包括機械設備等等安全設施的缺失導致的職業災害或是管理疏失而造成這個不法侵害導致的職業災害都是在這個範圍裡面是我們建議說還是維持目前的現行的條文就是這個不做這個現行條文的修正以上來 請楊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
22174.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
22189.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
林彥群委員也在場我個人也是覺得維持現行條文是比較好的因為假如說一直以列舉的方式這樣子反而會因為現在 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
22195.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
22214.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
哇 你現在比我會同意大概就是因為現在我們就是用職災來涵蓋職場上的一切傷害看起來是比修正好 抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
22222.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
22234.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
這個我沒有意見 因為之前勞動部就有來溝通過 了解那樣的一個我覺得也可以不需要那真的要列的話列很多 那我這邊同意 以上好那我們第一條就維持現行條文 謝謝繼續審查第二條 現有委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
22253.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
22265.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
你一樣是李坤哲委員 范雲委員 林耀勤委員 王玉敏委員還有黃修萬委員我再請行政單位剛剛有委員建議的 你是不是針對現場有委員的提案來做回應比較快 好不好好 謝謝針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
22272.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
22298.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
李坤哲委員就是在裡面連署的有林月琴委員這個部分第一個部分有關於這個職業災害的定義是不是要加上這個心理壓力事件引起的精神或身體的疾病這個部分我們認為跟剛剛的回應一樣是不是說我們是保留在目前的健康裡面範圍已經涵蓋身心這個壓力或精神疾病引起的都是屬於我們的職業災害定義所以這個部分是不是就是維持不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
22299.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
22327.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
那另外的部分有關於這個職場霸凌的定義部分那現在我們有職場霸凌的專章是不是到專章再來處理那再來是有關於這個李燁群委員這邊提到的在定義部分要不要增加事業單位人員的定義那我們考量到我們現在對於事業單位人員其實在現行的本法的第二條裡面對於勞工或是其他的工作者都有明確的定義包括到這個派遣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
22328.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
22353.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
勞工都是適用到我們這個本法的勞工的定義所以是不是這個部分事業單位人員的定義是不是不予甄列但是另外林委員這邊有提到說因為這次職場霸凌特別提到勞動場所是不是把我們現在放在細則裡面的勞動場所 工作場所及作業場所的定義從細則的第五條一列到本法這邊來定義這個部分是在我們這邊是認為是同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
22356.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
22384.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
來請提案委員因為這邊有前期也有溝通過因為我本來就很堅持希望那個789還是列入然後在細則裡邊所以如果剛剛勞動部已經說同意那我這邊就沒有特別意見以上好那我們第二條就維持現行條文因為他剛剛提到是按照我的那個列列對 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
22395.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
22406.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
好不好意思修正就是依照林蔚群委員所提的條文修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
22418.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
22447.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
他有個第五款照林岳勤委員所提的再修正通過是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
22450.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
22470.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
應該是這樣嘛第五項我接受拿掉嘛那就變成事實上是變成原來的後來變成等於七八九要保留嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
22473.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
22479.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
所以依照林月琴委員所提再修正通過就修正通過好繼續審查第四條有台灣民眾黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
22499.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
22502.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
還有兩位王委員跟黃委員都不在現場以台灣民眾黨的部分來請行事機關來做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
22506.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
22527.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
是 勞動部說明 針對台灣民眾黨提案的部分希望在這個第四條的適用範圍裡面增加了這個軍職人員 公務人員跟教育人員那說明一下 因為目前在這個法裡面並不會提到個別的職業別我們是本法適用於各業 所以各業都適用職安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
22530.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
22549.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
所以現在的教育人員在學校裡面的教育人員也是用子安法那另外公務人員的部分因為在我們國內目前是採這個公務人員跟一般勞工是採分流所以考試院的保訓會也在今年的7月9號修正的公布公務人員保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
22549.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
22575.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
然後也一併修正的這個發布公務人員執行植物安全衛生及防護辦法裡面已經參考治安法的相關法規相關條文增訂了對於提高對公務人的一些安全衛生的保護強度所以我們認為說在這個部分在我們這邊部分是不是政府機關的公務人員就公共行政院裡面的政府機關的公務人是不是才是優先適用這個公務人保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
22576.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
22591.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
那另外軍職人的部分在目前如果說軍職人在行業別是屬於這個國防部所產的生產機構或軍醫院研究機構他已經歸屬於製造業 醫療保健業跟研究發展業基本上也都是一體適用職安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
22592.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
22612.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
那其他的話 其他的軍職人因為他的性質不管是軍事訓練或是本身的一個特殊任務就比較屬於這個跟一般勞工不同這個部分我們就是維持沒有特別在裡面匡列進來陳委員等一下 蔡組長你要補充是不是來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
22616.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
22640.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
报告委员会就是有关台湾民众党党团提案以及王玉明委员王洪威委员等提案把公务人员纳入治安法的这个相关的这个提案的保修会的意见包含了第一个是有关公务人员执行植物安全卫生防护在法制面的部分大院已经在今年6月24号三读通过修正保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
22640.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
22659.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
其中也明定了公務人員職場安全衛生是授權訂定安慰辦法來加以落實同時也增訂了職場霸凌的定義申訴期限以及違反安慰辦法各個機關必須要依照保障法的規定會有定有相關的罰款以及行政刑法的規定等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
22660.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
22686.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
那同時也明定了由保訓會負責行政法環的裁處以及對於各機關如果是違反安慰辦法的規定可以主動去加以檢查等等的規定那因應保障法的上述修正考試院也在今年7月1號修正施行了我們安慰辦法的規定那其中也增訂了包含植霸防治高風險植物安慰保障足跡監督苛責等等相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
22686.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
22712.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
那過去從7月1號以來的這4個月期間保訓會也參照了職安法跟相關執法的做法陸續訂定了包含健檢要點設施要點執法處理原則抽查要點等相關的執法發布實施那各個機關也依照大院修正的保障法跟安慰辦法的規定積極組成了安全衛生防護單位並為明年1月9號這個施行保障法來完成準備工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
22713.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
22737.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
那其次呢对保幸会对于政府机关公务人员执行植物安全卫生的防护其实跟私部门雇主对于受雇者保障并没有不同但是我们必须要考量到政府机关在业务性质以及工作场域的风险程度确实有别于私部门而且公务人员也负担了保护国家人民的安全以及应尽的服从义务等等这跟私部门在 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
22739.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
22759.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
雇主跟受雇者之间是牢固的契约关系是有所不同的因此过去行政院跟考试院在公务人员职场安全卫生的法治适用关系就是维持目前的这个双轨制的运作所以保训会是建议在政府机关公务人员部分能够依据大院所通过的保障法修正规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
22760.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
22769.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
让保训会呢持续来落实强化执行那对于治安法的修正条文部分呢就维持行政院目前修正条案的规划以上说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
22770.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
22796.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
好謝謝請陳昭志委員我想謝謝勞動部很努力的說明那事實上我們公務人員跟勞工的這個安全健康保障目前是非常清楚的雙軌制那我們也知道這種公務員跟勞工分流的雙軌制當然不是只有台灣獨有的雖然說跟鄰近國家像日本日本國家公務員的職務安全這個衛生保障體制是類似的也是雙軌制但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
22798.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
22823.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
但是在日本 他們那個像包括公務員的職業災害的認定跟勞工採取完全相同的標準那國家對公務員也附有保護的照顧義務所以從他們的執法所謂的人事院規則實質是他們是實際上運用都可以確定日本國家公務員即使沒有適用安慰法他的安全衛生事項的保障的水準範圍程度和內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
22824.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
22849.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
跟勞工是一致的所以沒有明顯的差距但是我們現有的這個公務人員保障法其實剛剛提到的相關辦法即便說現在在更新這個確認之後但是本質上它還是比較是事後的補救跟消極的保護性質比較沒有前端的預防系統監督職責診斷通報及職業認定等這種制度的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
22850.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
22874.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
而且很重要公部門的這個職安業務沒有專責人員都是靠各機關派員兼任處理所以使得公務員在遇到實際狀況的時候職災的時候他往往沒有辦法獲得及時專業有效的協助我想說我必須在這邊說明本黨黨團為什麼是希望能夠把這個公務人員納入的一個基礎跟想法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
22878.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
22878.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
好 謝謝來 請部長回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
22886.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
22912.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
跟包括跟委员们说明因为其实现在第4条条文里面第一句的那个个业其实就是基本上都包括在那里面了所以在这个条文的形式上面其实如果再加上一个这个公务人员君子人员等等的其实在这个条文的形式上面好像有也是有点因为个业就 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
22913.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
22934.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
各就包括各个部分那现在是因为这个公园保障法他其实是一个特别法的概念所以那这一次今年上半年的时候包括7月1号的时候我想保训会他们其实也做了一个很大很大幅的修订其实也跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
22935.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
22957.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
这个治安法很多相关的要求跟规范其实是高度的拉近了所以我们是希望是说是不是还还是可以维持现有的条文因为的确是在两院的讨论里面公务员的部分还是优先以保障法来去做规划因为确实保障法是一个特别法的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
22958.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
22984.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
那治安法這邊是一個普通法的角度所以不管是在立法的形式或保障那如果今天有覺得哪些部分的保障需要再拉高的話其實可以在這個各自所屬的這個法規裡面來去做討論或者是來去做處理這可能會是在這整個法制的體制裡面是相對比較一個完整的概念謝謝我再補充一下來 林淳偉先生你好 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
22987.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
23014.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
我不會說我反對但是我要講的是說如果要這樣子納入的話那整部法的修法結構應該不是只有提這一條整部法的修法職業安全衛生法第一條我們明定的保障工作者再來所謂的工作者第二條的定義是指勞工 自營作業者及其他受工作場所指揮負責任指揮監督從事勞動的人等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
23015.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
23029.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
整部法律裡面那你開中名義講都沒有納入公務員那整個公務人員如果按照國家的定義是講他不是由業者受雇於業者的公務員是指這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
23031.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
23041.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
可能是依法令從事公務的人或者是說要有任用資格的等等還有這個是定義而已如果要放進來整部法的修法應該是從定義開始再來這裡職災職業安全衛生的預防的樣態都是針對受僱勞工的樣態去 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
23049.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
23052.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
去訂定所有的這個安全衛生的相關預防可是公務員的從事的工作的樣態他們所需要的安全衛生的預防的概念絕對跟這一步法原來的法律不一樣而且可能還必須要擴充還必須要增加很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
23067.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
23084.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
所以单纯的只是把这三个三类公务员军工教老师放进来利益是良善的而且我们不会说保障法就够好了保训这个考试院里面他们提的这个保障法怎么样怎么样 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
23085.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
23097.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
因为为什么人家会反弹就是因为一直以来大家都觉得保护的层次不够所以大家才会反弹说我们要全部不要两轨整合在一轨里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
23099.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
23116.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
可是整合在一轨里面我觉得单纯把这三类放进来就以为是解决了事实上并没有所以我还会建议说如果要放进来的话应该是整步法大修而不是只是把三类的人放进来结果一个老师的他的职业安全卫生需要预防的 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
23117.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
23143.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
需要避免的他需要采取的防护措施绝对跟劳工不一样一个军人需要的职业安全卫生一个消防员需要的职业安全卫生一个警察需要的职业安全卫生怎么会跟劳工是一样的吗所以你在职业安全卫生的保护预防上面应该要纳入什么项目你都没有放进来然后今天就说这三类放进来就好了可是你在作用管理管制上你都没有对应的法条出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
23144.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
23154.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
那這樣子其實是不行的所以我們的意思是說要這樣做也可以但是要整部全面性的大修而不是只有放這一條進來這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
23159.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
23176.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
好謝謝 請陳委員我再補充說明一下第一個我剛剛也很驚訝聽到部長您說各業各業就是包含所有行業部長您是這樣子形容那當然淑媛委員她提的不是沒道理但是我們這裡的用詞是包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
23177.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
23191.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
包含是說包含就是這幾個就是這個個頁尤其是說要納入比如說納入剛剛提到這幾個那上次那個署長您來那個就是治安署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
23192.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
23209.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
您过来沟通的时候您有提到说教育人员教师是适用在里面的如果我没有记错的话您说教师适用在里面那我们必须承认说现在还是有落差就是双轨但是日本用其他方法把这个双轨的落差去补足了 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
23210.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
23229.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
他還是有辦法再去補足用執法等等去把它補足那我想我們必須還是要知道這件事是有落差的是有他雖然有特別的法去保障但是他還是有落差所以是不是我對各業還有剛剛就是之前溝通的時候您說有這個教職也包含在裡面我再確認一下好嗎我說明一下因為我們第4條裡面確實是本法適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
23237.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
23252.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
本法適用於各業那剛剛這個公共行政業就是包括政府機關剛剛部長也提到我們在第一條裡面的最後一段有提到其他法律有特別規定 重新規定所以公務人保障法的話基本上就是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
23253.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
23280.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
在公共行政業裡面的特別規定那公共行政業裡面的非公務人員當然還是適用職安法這個是本法適用於各業這樣的概念那剛剛講那個各業如果是在教育服務業裡面基本上他的安全衛生會適用職安法但是他如果是涉及到他的救濟或是他的保障事項的話會回到各個法律裡面去處理我們是在講說在職場上的安全衛生是一體適用是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
23289.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
23309.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
跟陳委員說明其實我認為大家都很關注包括公務員的這個職業安全衛生的保護可是就像你剛才說的在日本的這個形態裡面如果要把它拉平的話其實是在公務員的法規裡面盡量的去把它給往上拉而 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
23312.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
23333.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
按照陳委員剛才的講法的話就是一樣是在雙軌裡面可是覺得如果哪邊差別的話會在那個地方的差別想辦法大家去把它給拉近或者是盡量拉起可是現在當然要因為現在在執安法裡面就是按照執安法的邏輯執安法是一個普通法公務員他有他的這個特別法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
23334.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
23354.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
保障法所以公務員是就是是用保障法來做相關的規定的那這個保障法裡面有很多相關的訂定也是比較符合整個公務員的體制的法規再去處理這個問題的那我自己認為不是不能夠把它拉起可是這個是不是要在公務員主管的法規裡面來去把它處理給拉起或者是提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
23356.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
23370.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
而不一定是好像變成用一個這樣子放到這個條紋裡面那放到這個條紋裡面是不是就能夠解決問題因為即便放到這個條紋裡面還是一樣保障這個公務員保障法它還是特別法還是優先適用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
23374.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
23397.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
反正部长您就是也认知说是有差距的目前是双轨下是我们保护的程度范围内容是有水准上的差距跟我说不一定水准上的差距但是因为它是不太一样的体制在这不太一样体制在治安法里面很多它是处理是牢固关系 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
23398.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
23426.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
他的關係是一個勞動關係可是公務員的體制就像剛剛保訓會說的他有一個公務員體制裡面在這個公務員法規上面的一個關係這個也許等於可以那個保訓會可以再做更清楚的說明是在這關係下面去長出保障的做法那我認為拉起怎麼樣去拉起大家可以一起來努力但是就像你剛才說日本的做法他是在公務員的法規裡面去處理讓他盡量的去拉起 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
23427.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
23449.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
那我知道现在这个保训会其实这一段时间这几个月也做了很多这样子的努力也许可以请保训会再把他们的努力做的更多的细节的说明这样子如果说基本上往这个方向走往这个方向走就算你双轨但实质上的大家得到的这个保护的范围强度 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
23450.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
23471.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
是靠近的那我想我可以接受啦如果是往這個方向去走那保修會應該今天沒有出席嗎有出席是有出席剛剛就蔡處長她回應你的你可以說明蔡處長洪部長好像很有把握的這個覺得是就是往這樣子方向去做麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
23472.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
23499.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
跟委員報告一下就是從保障法修正三讀通過之後以及安慰辦法7月1號施行之後其實保訓會在這四個月期間陸陸續續訂定了相當多的執法包含了我剛剛有講過的我們的健康檢查的要點然後我們過去在安慰辦法中其實參照了很多執安法的條文去訂定但是都沒有像執安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
23500.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
23526.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
在母法的下面还有很多相应的执法去做相关的指引跟说明那这一次我们在安慰办法的下面我们还另外再增订了包含了各机关应该要符合的设施要点然后各机关对于危害物的处理要符合一定的规范以及执法处理原则然后从明年开始保训会以及各个机关也会开始依照我们所定定的抽查要点去进行 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
23528.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
23550.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
职业安全卫生的抽查包含了定期抽查跟发生重大事故灾害的专案抽查等等那透过这些执法跟实际上的这个监督跟科者的这样的去执行相信可以在政府机关的公务人员在执行职务安全卫生的这一块能够更落实保障那当然 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
23551.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
23568.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
我们整个公务人员的安全卫生的保障的设计其实像是一个层级化的保障概念在公部门中其实像是医院学校它就是相较于私部门是很相近的风险所以它就是全部适用治安法的规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
23569.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
23595.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
但是至于其他的政府机关其实他在承受职业灾害的这样的风险的程度其实跟私部门是有很明显的不足这个从治安法的相关条文都可以很明显的看得出来所以也就是我们在这个部分会是建议说在政府机关的公务人员还是依照保障法跟安慰办法的规定的原因那当然保训会也会持续的在这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
23596.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
23623.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
保障法跟安慰辦法相關的執法盡量的跟執安法相關規定去做拉平以上說明好了請陳教授委員謝謝保訓這邊的說明那既然就是說在執法上或在做法上是盡量往這個方向去做那樣態不一樣那我在最後雖然是不相關我還是提醒一下警消的樣態是跟一般公園不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
23624.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
23651.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
你們一直不讓警消組工會啊不讓就是說他的風險非常高啊所以就是你們的原則應該要適用到每個狀況不是說為立法方便或整個管理上的方便就覺得有時候就拿這個重點然後那個重點又丟了希望你們記得樣態不一樣但是也有個別危險的警消組工會洪部長你要放在心裡頭主消那個警消組工會那這條我就沒有其他意見了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
23653.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
23679.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
好 謝謝那我們第四條就維持現行條文通過再繼續審查第六條一樣有台灣民眾黨所提還有還有 劉俊國委員所提的修正動議第五案來 先請刑事機關做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
23681.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
23702.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
好 勞動部說明就這個台灣民眾黨及各個委員所提的針對第六條的相關的提案我們檢視多事物跟這個職場霸凌有關那現在行政院版已經有增訂的職場霸凌防事專章那我們是建議說這些相關提案是不是到我們專章來做討論那現行第六條就可以維持這個現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
23704.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
23723.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
那其中另外有林月琴委員這邊連署的部分也提到剛剛講說在健康再加上身心兩個字剛剛已經有一併說明是不是這個部分我們就建議不要甄列這個身心兩個字就維持這個健康的用詞 上來請陳教授委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
23725.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
23746.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
這一份就是有關指引的部分因為這個比較像建議你看讀起來他沒有法律的這個強制力就先訂出所執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引指引本身就是一個指引他沒有法律強制力那裡面做的是比較像是說事件處理流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
23747.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
23769.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
很像在事件處理的流程只能讓公司參考那沒有辦法強制他們去照做所以在實際的情況下員工被職場霸凌後有時候往往是很難提出申訴得到公正的調查或心理上的一些安慰跟修復我擔心的或我們提出的重點是在這個指引就是指引麻煩來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
23775.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
23793.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
那个跟专员说明其实因为这次针对霸凌的问题职场霸凌的问题我们不是只是要多一句话而已而是我们其实是直接定了一个专章所以关于不管是申诉调查或处理接下来在专章里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
23794.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
23814.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
都會有很清楚的明文的明定跟相對應授權的執法來去處理所以因為是基於這個原因所以我們認為其實在第6條其實不用再特別把這個部分給擺進去因為我們到接下來專章的部分就有很多重要的條文會來處理這個問題了這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
23817.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
23835.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
好 我提到一個修正動議你要不要看一下在第二項第三款是 勞動部來做這個部分那個昭偉這邊有提到一個修正動議那針對我們目前第二項的這個第三款在我們目前增訂的職場霸凌專章以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
23837.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
23854.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
這個執行職務因他人遭受不法侵害的部分會比較偏向是這個目前很多外界希望有第三方的包括顧客消費者或乘客的這些這個不法侵害的部分那第三款會這個條文目前還是維持住但是大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
23855.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
23880.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
很多委員希望說是不是可以讓他的這個申訴調查處理程序更加清楚所以召委提到的這個部分是不是在第三款增加一個執行職務因他人行為遭受身體或精神不法侵害之預防並建立申訴調查其處理程序我們經過評估認為是可以的 謝謝好還有沒有補充 來 請您委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
23882.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
23906.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
我聽不懂 因為我們現在講的譬如說這個不是勞僱雙方這個講的是說你可能勞僱雙方以外的他者然後要納入這個植栽預防的你必須要顧主要有的這個設備或措施裡面可是你第三 這個是第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
23907.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
23921.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
第三款讲执行职务可是顾客又不是执行职务执行职务因他人行为遭受身体或精神不法侵害之预防可是这个顾客是这个定义里面执行职务之人吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
23924.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
23949.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
跟委員說明因為這第二項它是提到這個對顧主對下列事項應妥為規劃採取必要的安全衛生措施那這個執行職務就是指這個勞工他在執行職務那如果說像我們一般在消費者對面 他要面對像銀行他要面對這個他的客戶那有時候現在反映說有一些客戶會咆哮等等但是我們講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
23954.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
23971.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
對沒錯這個應該是不修也是可以不修就有了我們原來條文就是有比如說外部顧客或第三方的民眾或是急診室裡面暴力的醫生暴力的醫護人員那為什麼還要修這個不是本來就有僱主的預防責任的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
23972.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
23992.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
是 我們修不是 我們只是強化現在在附屬法規裡面要建立這個申訴調查處理程序這個部分把它更明文規定 其實這個目前在那第三款要 那其他款不用嗎第三款要第三款比較特殊 對 確實比較特殊 對喔 好吧 那意思是說照他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
23994.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
24016.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
其他委員的版本為什麼不可以你們是說申訴調查那他們是加一個處理程序基本上一樣是跟這個目前民眾黨的提案跟這個王玉平委員提案文字上是一樣的對啊那就照他們就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
24019.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
24047.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
我講一下不好意思因為我要跟趙執委員說一下不好意思因為其實剛剛你的那個條文其實也是在不法侵害的部分因為我剛剛一聽的時候我把它聽成是霸凌所以我剛才說如果是霸凌的話就在霸凌專章可是如果因為這個你們民眾黨的條文也是在不法侵害需要相關的這個申訴調查跟程序的話其實也是跟這個趙偉的這個提案是類似的所以我們都認為是可以來來採訪的就照他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
24049.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
24077.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
第三款就照他 第二項第三款就照他們的嘛好 謝謝所以怎樣民眾黨的一樣所以我們第六條就照 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
24079.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
24095.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
劉建國委員所提的修正統一及民政黨委員所提的條文來通過繼續審查行政研版第九條還有委員完正序 林淑芬 劉建國所提 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
24103.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
24125.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
條文草案我們來討論請行政機關來先做說明是 勞動部先就這個第九條的部分第九條部分現在大概所有的委員都跟行政院版相同那有一個部分就委員劉建國這邊大概部分的文字跟院版稍微有一點這個不一樣那不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
24127.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
24145.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
整個立法的意旨跟精神方向都一樣只是我們現在在行政院版的部分對這個產銷資料有在進一步甄列有關產銷資料應包括的內容保存連線跟其他應遵循事項由中央署委員會定之建議依照行政院版來 請陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
24147.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
24174.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
好 謝謝主席這一條對於勞動部指定用在防護勞工安全的機械設備或器具的製造者或輸入者要求要建立及保存產銷資料原則上我們非常的支持但是我要請職安署先釐清一個重要的問題我應該那天溝通的時候我也有表達我先以去年我揭露台電大林電廠安裝材質不符合的廠商像職安署申請這個就材質不符合但職安署申請TS標章 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
24175.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
24197.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
不合格的防爆電氣管配件一案那到目前為止 治安署已經一整年都沒有依法開罰那這些業者過去生產是沒有保存資料啦因為也沒有規定啦 我也了解那未來修法通過以後會變成他們拿來抗變的理由啊因為那些不合格的防爆管配件都還安裝在電廠裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
24199.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
24224.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
那他們可能會說過去主管局沒有要求嘛所以這個品質偷查的時候他就不能夠作為開罰理由這一點我想請治安署做個釐清因為他的危險性是存在的啊他等於是立法的空窗期啊那他已經存在那我也有質詢很久又都沒有被被理會啊沒有被處理可以嗎部長還是署長可以說明一下嗎這部分怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
24225.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
24243.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
好跟委員報告大概這個部分委員長期關心這個有關於這個防爆管配件他的這個這個有關於材質的部分跟強度部分那其實這個也涉及到很多廠商的一些他的產品那也涉及到這個標準標準局的這個國家標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
24245.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
24271.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
所以目前都是按照程序還在持續在進行這些法律上的一些疑義在釐清當中所以也一直在持續跟標準局等等還有我們外部的專家學者在召開會議當中那至於說委員剛剛提到說修法後會不會當作抗辯理由基本上是不會的我們是在補強未來在這個這個廠商要有一些產銷資料的留存所以這個案子目前都還在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
24275.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
24303.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
署長您現在立這個法我們覺得非常OK因為任何東西都一樣包括藥品的效期的安全這個都要有原始的這個你生產的產品要存留要保存等等才會有所謂的當年我們為什麼我也跟你講客流感為什麼當年藥不夠大概一直延長它不是有它是有科學根據的就當時生產的那一批繼續去了解它的這個穩定性安全性等等那現在我講的是這個已經知道材質不符合了 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
24304.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
24330.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
你們驗出來是強度不夠啊用自己目前國家的標準是不夠所以你們現在又說要幫他們開會找說國外有沒有類似可以的那我會覺得其實很多人知道會擔心說這個等於有一點幫已經好像不想再逆轉的事情去幫他護航啊因為大部分就這兩家那就是那兩家在包啊那所有的工程都他們在包啊現在他們又放在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
24331.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
24357.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
你不要用別的東西沒問題就防爆管配件看到都嚇死人了防爆管配件材質不對不合格那你說在研究在研議那可能就是要用更寬鬆的法律讓他過關啊就是說我現在還是問這一段你要怎麼處理那今天你們的修法這個大家都要支持啊因為過去可能就是沒有力到這個部分讓他們有一個漏洞可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
24359.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
24384.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
他跟你說我原來的這個就不見了我的那個東西不見我沒有辦法我們要依法用這個來去再做重新的檢驗所以要找別的方式來證明所以署長你知道我在講什麼所以這個部分你要怎麼積極處理讓大家安心因為他還在 他還在電廠裡他還在電廠裡面而且是永久性的就一直放在電廠裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
24386.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
24400.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
啊等爆炸的時候我也跟你講啊爆炸的時候什麼證據都沒有啦萬一他的因為強度不夠防爆力不夠結果爆炸了那更正好開脫啊因為爆炸後什麼東西都不見了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
24401.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
24430.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
那這件事是不是要稍微看怎麼處理好 謝謝委員謝謝委員支持這個條文那剛剛委員提到這個強度確實我們現在就朝這個方向在做這個到底的強度有沒有達到這個是目前積極在進行中 謝謝這個進度就麻煩你知道我一直追就麻煩我們再把進度再給委員 是那主席我對這條法條沒有其他意見好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
24431.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
24458.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
好那我們第9條就依照行政院現行條例來通過繼續來處理第15條之一由委員王正旭所提還有林淑穩委員劉建國委員好請還有修正動議的修正動議的第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
24462.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
24490.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
蘇青不在三四還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議第四案那請行政機關先做說明好 勞動部說明針對剛剛有提到林委員的部分大概只有第一項的文字差異方向上都是跟行政院版一致建議還是依照這個行政院版那至於說王振訊委員提到的部分增加了第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
24491.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
24511.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
那這個部分確實在目前事業單位在施工期間他必須要指派專人或委託專業機構來監督查核他的施工廠商是不是確實依照施工計畫來採取安全衛生的預防設備跟措施所以這方面的這個提案在行政院這邊是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
24511.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
24538.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
那配合這個第三項新增那第四項在授權的部分也要增列這個有關於人員跟專業機構的資考條件以及監督查證的內容等等那至於剛剛有提到劉建國委員提到的離職動議的部分針對第一項這個第一項的部分要著作文字的修正後來我們也發現確實在目前的一些文字跟用詞會造成一些疑慮所以我們也是同意說依照這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
24540.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
24567.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
劉建國委員這邊的一個修正動議來通過來 請光正旭委員好 謝謝主席那先針對剛剛第9條他都說要通過到底是行政院版的修訂或者是原條文 那可能要再確定一下第9條是依照維持現行條文通過現行條文還是行政院版修正行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
24574.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
24586.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
那第15條之一 這是條新增的部分那現在剛剛署長也已經做了進一步的說明那有關於增進這個再增訂第三項的部分主要是因為我們也瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
24587.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
24599.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
這個事業單位在這個施工之前就必須要能夠確定在這個法條裡面要依施工計畫出來確實執行並且指派人員或委託專業這個機構來做監督跟查證我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
24604.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
24630.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
這部分它的重要性剛剛署長所說明大家也應該可以認同因為我們也知道如果只有讓施工單位去處理而沒有事業單位來承擔起所有的責任的話而且是有好的方式來承擔的話恐怕無法讓整個施工單位在執行的過程當中沒有很好的品質保證所以這部分請各位能夠來幫忙支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
24632.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
24661.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
第四項的部分就是針對前三項一定規模以上的工程等等的內容還要包括人員或專業機構的資格條件監督以及查證內容等等都需要有一個執法來做訂定由中央儲管機關來處理相關的一些內容所以希望透過這樣的這個修正的條文內容可以讓在五十五之一的部分可以更完整 以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
24663.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
24688.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
好來再請陳教授委員謝謝這條條文本身是沒有問題曾經這樣的條文但是他跟剛剛我談的第9條有點類似因為這個勞工這個營建業他的就是高空墜落這種例子是一直有存在那這個立法當中這個又是空窗期這個這個這個制度的空窗期間你們要怎麼做就是要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
24689.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
24716.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
立這個法就表示說過去沒有立這個法嘛就要補強了那現在怎麼辦呢眼前怎麼辦呢怎麼來處理呢跟我剛剛第9條的意思是一樣好麻煩謝謝跟委員說明其實15之一是這一次治安法修法裡面非常重要的一個突破也就是我們把所謂的預防的概念更延伸到在前端規劃的時候就說風險評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
24718.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
24747.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
那因為要做風險評估其實希望讓規劃者或設計者他就應該要有為到時候施作的時候怎麼樣子可以降低風險的概念跟設計的規劃進去其實這一條的條文是非常重要其實我們也是參考好幾個國家其實它都有同樣的概念那剛剛委員問的問題我的最簡單的回答就是那我們真的希望可以趕快通過我們希望可以趕快三讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
24748.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
24769.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
那因为尽快的三读其实尽快的通过其实就可以让这个要求事业单位他要来规划风险的这个工作可以尽早的进行当然我们现在假设有还有假设还有一点时间的空窗期的话我们也会加强来跟业者来去做这样的宣导或者让他知道我们接下来要立这样的法大家赶快做这样的准备 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
24769.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
24781.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
具備這樣子的專業的能力評估的能力這事情我們會盡力來做可是剛剛委員問的問題的話我認為因為這很關鍵我們就是希望能夠盡快的能夠來通過那讓這個法制的洞可以把它補起來 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
24785.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
24812.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
基本上立法當然是好的啦OK啦那你的說明也大概也只能是這樣子所以其實上就是要趕快去盤點你覺得這個法很關鍵但是這個行業存在這麼久了那這個風險我們也都一直看到啊所以老實說立法太晚了啦太慢了啦當然大家想辦法讓他沒有人反對的可是所以還是那句話嘛在這個當中這個當中就請行政部門啊看怎麼樣去監督或什麼是要求啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
24813.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
24841 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
沒有法還是可以要求啊對吧沒有法還是可以要求啊好好謝謝主席我沒有其他意見了謝謝好請說明就是說我們認為第15之一應該是可以依照這個召委建國委員的這個還有王振興委員的提案來通過謝謝好那我們第15條之一就依照王振興委員及劉建國委員所提的修正通過繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
24843.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
24861.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
行政院所提22條委員王振旭主席對不起剛剛那15條之一那個邱振東 廖偉強委員也有提嘛都一樣嘛對 那廖偉強委員也有提 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
24862.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
24876.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
因為剛剛 剛剛開始要開會的時候有講如果委員有到我們就處理 委員沒有到我們就不處理所以剛剛我在宣讀的時候因為有提案的委員他沒來我就沒有再賭了是這樣不過提的是一樣的 對啦抱歉 我們現在處理這個行政院所提第22條還有委員王振旭 委員林淑芬 委員劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
24895.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
24900.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
好那我們先請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
24901.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
24929.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
好 勞動部說明目前22條所有的委員的版本除了剛剛有提到林月琴委員有連署的部分有出現了身心健康的部分我們建議這個身心就不要出現那其他部分的話都跟院版一致所以這個部分是條文上是目前是跟院版一致所以我們是建議維持行政院版那另外好像有其他的附帶決議的好來請王志勳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
24931.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
24951.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
是因為這22條部分應該是沒什麼特別的需要再追加意見的地方不過我們的附帶決議裡面是希望能夠針對醫療人員或者是針對公衛人員能夠在這裡面也扮演一定的角色所以這部分也可以請大家再考量一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
24955.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
24981.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
來 請署長回應是 這個確實我們這個部分未來再配合這個母法過了以後我們那個附屬法規會把這個公衛師也納入這個勞工健康服務相關人員之一同意好好 那我們22條是不是就依照行政院所提的條文通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
24982.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
25003.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
好謝謝 繼續我們來審查二十二條之一因為提案的文都不在現場啦二十二條之一二十三我都有簽署 我都有連署有連署嗎 可以做說明 對不起有修正東西是不是他說有二十二條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
25011.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
25032.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
22條之一 這個是那個他單獨拉出來的已經發了李昆澤委員的22條之一跟他的22條之一那個跟這個行政院版的22條之一是不一樣的要先審這個那個陳昭志委員 你要你所提的22條之一可能在第二章之後啦 第二章之後好 謝謝對對 這兩個因為對對對 先審22條跟22條對 兩位都不在 我們就不允 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
25035.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
25051.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
這不會處理好那我們繼續來審查第二張名第二張之行政院對不起我已經宣讀了我不是宣布了 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
25060.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
25077.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
是這個那個嘛 你們自己搞清楚啊你一個講上面 一個講下面 我不曉得啊對 這邊也是22之1啊對 你們要講這個 還是講這個嘛不是啦 你們自己看清楚再講好不好你們要講這個 還是講這個嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
25084.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
25108.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
對啦我知道因為他這個我們這個表應該大家都有啦他上面就有一個22條之一過章名第二章之後又有一個22條之一啊他們下次也搞不清楚要講哪一個22條之一啊我們我們就照院版審查其他委員跟院版不一樣的我們就整理出來那條文跟後面一樣我們就到後面再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
25110.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
25122.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
就是照院板在審查的一直都是這樣子啊我知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
25127.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
25144.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
現在是李昆澤委員自己有一個22-1嘛我剛剛已經針對李昆澤跟黃秀安委員所提的22條-1已經宣布不予處理了那我們過第二個章名之後又有一個22條-1他現在議事組人員是在講後面的22條-1他在擔心我剛剛宣讀的22條-1我們在處理這個事情來 先這位所提的章名第二章 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
25155.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
25183.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
之一號職場霸凌之防制還有在場委員有王振旭委員 林淑雯委員劉建國委員好 就這樣 那請行政機關來做說明好 勞動部說明目前在場委員提案的針對這個張明都跟行政院版一致就建議維持行政院版本就是職場霸凌之防制 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
25184.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
25204.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
好 各位委員 針對張明有沒有什麼意見可以那我們就照行政院所提的 所提案來通過那繼續審查行政院所提22條之一另有委員王振旭 林淑芬劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
25213.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
25240.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
好另外有一個修正動議第6案是還有第8案還有幻雲委員所提的修正動議好請行政機關先做說明目前在場委員的版本都跟行政院版一致所以建議這個目前22條之一是不是維持行政院版好21 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
25244.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
25245.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
25247.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
25273.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
說明一下就是因為考慮各企業內部他對於不法侵害的事件處理能力專業能力和資源分布不盡相同所以為了確保這個職業者的正義能夠落實所以我們覺得應該是在第三項可以明定政府應該建立全國性的不法侵害防治及調查人才資料庫那外聘調查專家資料庫也可以這麼說整合心理資商 勞動法律人資管理等跨領域的專業人員提供企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
25274.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
25301.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
在面對職場霸凌等不法侵害事件時能夠取得專業協助確保這個事件處理過程公正客觀與專業啦這個可不可以放到22條之二啦22條之二有另外在講霸凌調查啊你要建立一個專家名單資料庫不是資料庫是哪些是專業的人可以來進行協助調查那就放到22條之二啊如果可以放到22條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
25303.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
25324.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
那也就是放進去那當然我們也支持啊那部長要回應來好 趙委員那個不好意思因為剛剛陳委員剛剛講的是不法侵害可是因為我們這一條其實在處理的是職場霸凌所以職場霸凌跟不法侵害就不法侵害就像大家說醫院會有這個醫師被病人做攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
25326.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
25351.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
那是不法侵害那是因為這一張其實在處理的就是職場霸凌的部分從張明這就是職場霸凌的部分那剛才在委員剛才講的部分其實應該是我們是可以放到不法侵害相關的指引因為我們在前面在應該是第6條的部分其實也把不法侵害相關的調查程序等等等預防其實放在那邊那其實可以應該是如果需要更規範的更清楚的話也可以放在他的指引但是因為這邊是職場霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
25353.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
25372.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
刚刚我提到的这个精神这个可以放进去吗放得进去吗你放的如果是霸凌就放到22之2吧霸凌在22之2我们也有提相关的观念调查啦那如果你要放在不法侵害的话因为它范围就不是霸凌而已不法侵害的范围比霸凌还更广更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
25373.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
25394.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
所以部長才建議你說如果你應該用不法侵害這幾個字的字眼那就放到第六條裡面去訂定執行或是訂執法的時候放進去那如果你願意的話把他修正成這個職場霸凌也需要有一些專家名單作為資料庫讓私人企業他要外部調查的時候可以知道長老現在是專業的話那就是22條之二他就是限縮在職場霸凌的話22條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
25399.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
25425.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
但是精神一樣所以22條之一跟之二 之二我等一下也是會提就是對於辦事 我們有一些還要加迴避的規定對啦 迴避的規定我們支持但是那個都是之二啦 之一就不是談這個 之一是講說你要訂定這個防治措施而已那你整個發生之後 事情發生之後要調查程序要怎麼進行 要怎麼規範那就是之二 我們到之二再來放進去就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
25426.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
25448.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
所以你所謂委員就是你剛剛我提到提的22條資料庫我的說明你覺得可以放在別的地方但還是可以收的進來當然是之二不是在之一那勞動部這邊架構的問題剛剛陳委員提到那個人才資料庫實際上在我們22條之二已經在立法說明講很清楚了實際上我們也開始在展開了所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
25449.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
25468.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
我們是建議不需要到法居民訂那行政機關就可以處理現在已經開始在建立這個相關培訓相關的一個人才了沒關係 如果他不放心放到立法說明有時候就是立法說明欄放進去要求他一定要進行的程序要做什麼你放到立法說明因為母法不可哩哩哩哩那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
25470.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
25490.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
瑣碎的健行的程序一般都是講說授權給他們可是你不放心他的授權等一下沒有訂出來怎麼辦啊所以如果你在立法說明欄要求你的授權範圍要涵蓋什麼內容涵蓋什麼內容的話在立法說明欄可以放進去啦那如果說你每一條母法都要把所有執行健行的程序和細節都放進去的話那一條母法熱熱騰騰大家都看不上去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
25494.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
25514.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
那我們先解決之一的問題之確定以後我們再進行22-2的問題我們也支持要利益迴避啦我們在立法說明本來就寫了22-2是有寫如果你說霸凌的部分都有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫到有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
25519.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
25543.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
二十二條之一 歡迎委員這邊是有修正的動議包括他在第一項裡面的第四行本來是說原來的文字是各方面的言辭或行為致其身心健康遭受危害就是說有這樣的職場霸凌導致他的身心健康遭受危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
25544.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
25565.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
可是基本上我們是希望這個工作環境本身帶來的這個影響所以就調整如這個修正動力內容所寫到的我稍微再順一下那再請官員這邊也做一下回應就是第22條之一本法所稱職場霸凌只勞工於勞動場 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
25566.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
25585.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
所執行職務因其事業單位人員利用職務或權勢等關係於業務上必要且合理範圍持續以冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱或其他不當之言詞或行為自有害勞工之工作環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
25586.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
25605.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
危害其身心健康重點就是因為這樣的部分讓這個損害到勞工的工作環境最終危害到其身心健康就會比原來會致其身心健康遭受危害相對來講是比較重視這個工作環境的霸凌的內涵以上說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
25606.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
25619.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
這個最終有害的工作環境最終也是要危害他的身心健康這句話他的意思也是一樣那跟原條文大家行政院版大家的版本都一樣的意思我的意思是這樣子抱歉我比較性急 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
25620.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
25634.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
他說是導致一個工作環境有害然後有害最後就是危及勞工身心健康所以重點還是勞工的身心健康嘛身心健康本的危害本來就放進來了那你再多那一句我不曉得是什麼意思這樣啦要不要再解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
25638.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
25665.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
那請署長確實這個有害工作環境其實就是導致老公身心健康的一個危害到老公身心健康那我們認為加上這個文字其實對本原本的這個定義是沒有影響的我們是同意可以放進去的所以就是依照你們行政院所提的草案就 提案通過嘛對不對那不好意思立法說明的時候也增加剛剛我提到的那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
25667.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
25687.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
22又有霸凌的部分啦要再做好等一下跟委員說明喔因為因為22條之一比較我們在處理的是定義啦定義然後把不同的規模的企業給做了一些分類不會不會不會不會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
25693.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
25698.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
因為沒有那個資料庫我們很多地方政府也會很痛苦啦所以我也我們也希望能夠建立啦對 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
25701.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
25725.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
我再跟你分享一下因为我们就是说他答应我们本来这个母法要授权给他们去定定施行细则相关的执法但是他有时候答应我们可是在执法定定的时候没有放进去所以你怕他跳票嘛那所以你就在立法的说明栏里面指定一定要放进去的是什么放进去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
25725.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
25754.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
我看到部長點頭在立法說明欄放進去了你就不要怕他跳票不用怕了就是這樣子好有你一句話好謝謝不是就講事實主管委員一句話我在這裡比較久所以我給你分享不要被騙了要怎麼不要被騙了其實我們都被騙過了啦非常感謝好那你又是依照那個王勝旭委員剛剛提到的這個修正一通過是依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
25756.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
25767.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
你是說范雲嗎來 休息十分鐘啦你是要照行政院版大家的版本還是要照范雲的版本蛤好啦 現在你是在睡覺 你累了嗎蠻牛給他上 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
25791.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
25797.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
誒 班長好幸會誒 誒 給我們直三硬綁一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
25838.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
25861.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
每個委員都可以在這坐著吃,我就沒話說,你不來我們都在認真。還在問人家的好在哪?問人家的好在哪?問人家的好在哪? |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
25865.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
25882.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
謝謝觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
25895.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
25915.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
字幕志愿者 杨茜茜 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
25932.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
25938.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
上去我倫大會過來上去我倫大會過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
26024.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
26046.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
現在人走歷些些,一群人都沒來,我們在這裡討論半天,浪費時間。對啊,就知道啊,就是說,只有我敢不擔責。我可以跟同仁講說,市委員還是發言,是啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
26053.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
26079.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
你也要和我一起做還有人浪費我們時間嗎?你說三個禁錮?我覺得比較控制我控制你嗎?你記得嗎?我跟他見面就太熱鬧了我們是在2013年的時候對 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
26086.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
26091.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
謝謝觀看,下次見 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
26096.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
26122.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
我知道整個架構大家都知道的那個韓國那個架構是另外另外另一個端端對 所以那個零電子爆炸的時候重判老闆15年就是重大危害企業的罰罰就是 但是那個對我助理有在講說那個最真正的主宰一場 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
26127.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
26129.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
26140.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
26162.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
阿咪說你練習了,你才會做到這樣那你來幫忙,要不然你要在路頭找個位子,來跟我們找個位子不是啦,沒關係,你現在就開始做,做到...做這麼近喔?這有沒有人做?不是啦,有人,你要坐那裡坐那裡坐那裡就好嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
26180.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
26182.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
26279.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
26281.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
26307.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
26307.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
26349.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
26353.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
26416.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
26416.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
26476.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
26485.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
好我們繼續開會我們剛剛審到審到是原本所提22條之一還有多位委員來請做最後的一個確認你不是有溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
26506.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
26523.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
主席可以針對22-1發言嗎可以啊 可以啊還在處理22條之一那個22-1剛剛還沒機會解釋因為我們有跟勞動部討論那勞動部其實也接受這個建議就是霸凌 職場霸凌的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
26524.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
26546.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
我們應該要看的是他的結果而不是只是看他身心健康有沒有遭受傷害那所以呢這邊有我跟林月琴委員還有王振旭委員還有昭緯一起連署的部分希望能夠增加致有害勞工之工作環境為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
26546.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
26575.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
因為不能夠因為一個人身心比較健康他拿不到就是譬如說身心被傷害的證明然後那樣子霸凌的存在其實就是合理的那這個部分其實現在在教育的職場還有日本的跟職場霸凌有關的專法那其實都有相關的案例那兒童權利公約的國際審查也是提到說體罰那如果你只有講說一定要證明他身心嚴重侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
26576.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
26595.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
那對於一個身心比較健康或者是一個身心比較容易被侵害的兒童你的霸凌的定義是不一樣的那這樣子其實會有問題那這部分勞動部覺得有被說服所以希望各委員我們大家可以一起支持這個二十二之一的這個修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
26597.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
26612.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
以上謝謝好請教一下什麼叫做有害勞工的工作環境造成這個工作環境有害那怎麼定義他前面其實都有講到本法跟原來的定義是一樣的本法所稱職場霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
26612.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
26619.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
不是啦 什麼叫做有害勞工的工作環境的定義是什麼工作環境怎麼樣叫做變成有害了這個就要回到 工作環境怎麼樣叫做有害了 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
26642.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
26656.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
這個就是 危害身心健康就很具體我覺得被霸凌了 我覺得不舒服了我心裡不舒服了 然後這樣子很具體但是說整個工作環境變成有害了那要怎麼證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
26658.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
26683.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
那有人必須容忍那樣子的所以這構成要件是兩個一個就可以成立囉這個構成要件是只要有害工作環境然後就是霸凌了喔不是危害個人喔是只要讓工作環境變有害如果有一個客觀的霸凌行為的一個準則的話當然就是不能因為我比較會容忍那個霸凌行為就不成立嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
26684.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
26706.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
我想這個部分勞動部是不是可以說明因為我們在跟你們討論的時候不是我覺得我也可以一起討論就是說因為你的構成要件是只要你前面我們構成要件都一樣導致的結果是你認為有害工作環境就是霸凌了第二個有害身心健康也是霸凌你變成兩個都是霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
26707.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
26720.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
沒有 他這邊的如果加這句話重點就是在有害勞工之工作環境就是有時候你沒有辦法證明你的身心健康受傷害可是那個霸凌的行為是存在的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
26721.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
26742.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
不能因為說今天林淑芬覺得不被霸凌我覺得我身心受傷同樣一個對不起 洪孟凱的行為就變成在他身上你講的我同意但是我覺得你講的我同意但是呢什麼定義出有害工作環境變成有害了我在問的是這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
26743.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
26761.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
就已經有行為上的定義就是說利用職務或權勢等關係於業務上必要且合理這個東西都已經很清楚的各國的霸凌相關的規定持續以冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱或其他不當之言詞或行為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
26762.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
26779.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
有害勞工之工作環境危害其身心健康利用職務權勢冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱他的授詞是什麼這些是動詞他的授詞是什麼讓這個工作環境變成有毒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
26781.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
26806.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
就是有害勞工的有可能潛在影響對重點是勞工嘛所以重點是勞工嘛所以我的意思是這樣子那你要勞工來證明身心健康其實是難顧是更好沒關係我問一下部長這樣子是只要讓工作環境有害就是霸凌了是不是沒關係這樣定也可以不是只要他也是有客觀的準則前面的那些要件對但是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
26807.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
26834.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
只要發生過這些東西跟我無關我就可以去舉發我認為這個環境已經變成有害了所以我要告我要告這個人霸凌了沒有任何人出來喔但是我看不下去啊我覺得整體的工作氛圍不好啦他雖然不是霸凌我啊但我認為工作環境有害了啊我認為就存在了職場霸凌了這樣子也可以啊如果要這樣子也可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
26834.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
26849.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
但是我們要今天在這裡我們立法者的立法的意旨要討論清楚才不會讓未來整個法律通過的時候變成說立法者的意旨紫色的是什麼不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
26851.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
26874.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
這個部分日本規範職場霸凌的專法也是這樣子的一個標準那兒童權利公約的國際審查也是說就是說教師校園的霸凌就是也是要以這樣子的一個客觀的標準而不是說被害者要來證明我的身心如何受傷因為有的時候會無法取得相關的證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
26876.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
26905.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
我都不爭執這個啦我在問題要回答我們的問題我也可以接受是這樣子啦來 那個洪牧海委員有所提那個修正動議第六案來 請說明感謝 感謝趙委我有提一個對修正動議啦那其實也是22-1條這邊我希望是說後面再加入一個說中央主管機關要建立職場不法侵害防治跟調查的人才庫啦那其實這最主要還是希望是說建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
26905.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
26924.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
外聘調查專家人才庫那整合心理諮商勞動法令等專業人才那其實就可以提供企業在面對職場霸凌的不法侵害事項那剛剛是不是等一下勞動部一起來說明一下好不好說是不是22之2但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
26925.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
26952.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
對 我知道 但是我是說其實剛剛這個部分我覺得范玉玟你也思考一下因為我覺得在這一題這一題裡面比較像是什麼霸凌其實它就跟一般比較常態會遇到就是性騷擾嘛性騷擾其實還是回歸到說個人只要有人認為說他有被性騷擾了不管性別 不管這個對象他覺得不舒服自身他自己感到不舒服就是危害他的身心健康其實這就構成性騷擾的要件嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
26953.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
26974.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
職場性騷擾我們現在就是這樣定義所以有沒有必要一定要再把前面的這個工作環境也加進去因為我看所有委員的版本其實基本上是沒有這一個部分那我就覺得說如果說沒有那麼大堅持的話我們也了解說范雲委員提出了這樣的一個方向那也許可以在後面的立法宗旨的但書裡面把它給加進去但是實際上在法條裡面我覺得還是比較單純 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
26975.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
26996.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
那重點還是保障那個職員那個員工在職場上面不要有任何被霸凌的感覺我覺得這才是符合我們現在的立法宗旨以上 謝謝來 請部長統一回應我剛才很仔細聽大家的討論然後從我理解的邏輯來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
26998.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
27020.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
在这个文字上面就自有害劳工之工作环境危害其身心这样看起来结果还是要危害其身心健康就是结果还是要危害其身心那因为这一条处理的是定义那结果还是要危害身心这样可是我就会在想说有没有一种可能就是这个工作环境其实蛮友善可是里面有一个个人对了某另外一个霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
27023.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
27049.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
就是工作環境並不是一個有害的工作環境其實是蠻友善的可是就是有一個個人他的某個行為突然很惡劣然後對一個勞工霸凌那會不會因為有這句話就變無法去論證他是一個有害的工作環境那反而他說我這是一個我其實是一個友善的工作環境啊那會不會反而他就從這裡面定義跳出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
27051.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
27060.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
我只是會有點在想我就文字上面的邏輯來看這件事情的時候我會在想會不會有這種可能性他現在就變成兩個構成要件的感覺啦就是兩個一個要危害身體健康而且要導致這個工作環境變有害啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
27073.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
27093.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
就是說如果這個我們做很多預防啊然後或者是這個制度也很好可是就是有一個勞工他他就是很暴衝式的或者是很怎麼樣的然後做了這樣的事情那會不會他就跳出了這個定義因為這個是斷制在處理定義的問題我只是純粹在想這個語句的邏輯啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
27096.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
27123.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
那這是第一點那我回應剛才孟凱委員的因為孟凱委員因為這一個章節其實是在處理霸凌資產霸凌的專章因為你剛才在講的部分是不法侵害那不法侵害跟霸凌不是完全等價的事情那不法侵害的範圍其實更廣那剛才洪委員在講到是說希望有社人財庫什麼他比較像是在處理的邏輯上面去處理所以如果要處理的話他可能會是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
27126.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
27141.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
因為這一條22-1是在處理定義所以可能不是在這個條文裡面去處理這個問題那人才庫的部分我們已經在進行了不管是霸凌的人才庫或者其他我們其實都在進行了這樣 以上我說明 謝謝那請歡迎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
27142.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
27170.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
那我想問一下勞動部就是如果沒有加這個有害勞工之工作環境的話那是不是到時候舉證責任就是這個被霸凌者他一定要拿出就是說他被霸凌傷害身心就是受傷的一個診斷證明那這個才能夠符合這個定義是不是這樣因為舉證責任就變成是他本人要有一個身心健康受傷的證明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
27171.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
27199.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
好 跟委員說明其實在立法說明現在已經寫得很清楚所稱自己身心遭受危害不依須達到實質具體的傷害程度為必要包括造成勞工身心壓力或可能導致勞工離病或傷害的情形已足這個部分我們這個部分已經講很清楚就是說不會說一定要去拿這個診斷證明來證明說他已經遭受到健康的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
27199.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
27214.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
好那如果是照您這樣解釋的話只要是導致就是說造成敵意或惡劣之工作環境造成身心壓力那其實就應該在定義上把那個有害勞工之工作環境放回來啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
27223.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
27244.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
再跟委員說明其實我們在立法說明裡面也有提到包括形成明顯的敵意或惡劣的工作環境造成勞工的身心壓力或剛剛我補充的這個可能導致勞工離病或傷害的情形所以我們認為說在立法說明已經有帶到的是不是一定要放到母法 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
27247.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
27261.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
應該是這麼說 他的立法說明的包含形成明顯敵意或惡劣的工作環境這個是包含進去的可是你的條文 你的修正條文是導致導致有害勞工的工作環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
27262.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
27284.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
这个概念两种概念是不一样的他本来是一个抽象的概念说他不需要很具体的说危害身心健康要有证明就像洪孟考刚刚讲的他是个性骚扰的概念他说你觉得遭受到这个伤害了然后呢觉得不舒服了精神上有危害了有压力了 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
27285.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
27309.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
那就過程了那還有前面那些過程要見你必須要冒犯威脅冷落孤立侮辱啊那有客觀的條件去認定嘛但是呢他包含了惡劣的工作環境你在這裡孤立他他就變成一個惡劣的環境啊包含啊但是你這裡講的是說我孤立他導致有害勞工的工作環境導致 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
27310.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
27334.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
我覺得這裡還是不一樣的概念不一樣的層次因為其實這個問題其實是范委員在那時候執安法剛剛預告的時候就提醒我們的執安法裡面的危害的意思不一定是說一定要這一個勞工已經被傷害了才叫危害執安法裡面的危害的英文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
27336.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
27364.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
就是說可能潛在會讓勞工受傷害就變成這就是一個危害的狀態所以因為職安法裡面的危害的語境比較是在這個邏輯下面去思考所以也是因為范委員之前有提醒我們所以我們也在說明欄裡面再把這個語句再交代得更清楚那個語句就是說不以須達到實質具體之傷害程度為必要因為當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
27365.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
27390.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
范委員就是一直在提醒說會不會變成一定要勞工已經實質的受傷害了你才可以或者被已經受傷了或者是才可以去論證這是霸凌這不一定因為那個危害的意思變成是一個這個就是潛在可能有發生風險的可能就會是在治安法裡面的危害的概念了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
27394.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
27410.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
謝謝部長這樣解釋啦那我想說因為這個說明欄的文字已經是這個方向了那能不能夠就是勞動部在說明文字裡面就把像剛剛部長這樣講更清楚一點那我就不堅持要加那個文字好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
27411.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
27430.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
那但是我也要提醒大家不能拿性騷擾來定義來做比較因為性騷擾不需要危害身形健康只要主觀上覺得跟性與性別我覺得不舒服那我身心健康還是好好的性騷擾就成立了所以是一個不太不太好的比喻以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
27432.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
27461.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
我想補充一下我們不是拿這個覺得不舒服而是說性騷擾構成要件是當事人受害者主觀上認為而這個霸凌也是當事人他主觀上認為我遭受到很大的壓力所以這個重點是跟這個性騷擾同樣的地方是當事人的主觀感受我們要講的是這樣子這兩件事情當然不一樣不能是同樣的但是在講到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
27462.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
27466.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
受害者主觀的感受這樣的構成要件是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
27468.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
27492.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
我就是担心说到时候这个东西如果没有写清楚那个他绝对不会只听你主观的感受就是举证责任就在受害者我这样子我们来改那个立法说明然后让立法说明更清楚可以呈现出他不一定一定要劳工已经造成继承伤害才能够成为构成要件其实应该就是这个意思了这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
27492.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
27520.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
好啦我們這條先保留啦好不好你們把那個提案說明你們把提案說明弄出來之後第二輪我們再討論好謝謝繼續審查行政院所提22條之二還有委員煥雲委員王振旭委員林淑芬委員劉建國委員林月琴還有黃本凱委員所提的修正動議第6案 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
27522.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
27541.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
我們先請行政機關來做說明好 勞動部說明剛剛提到多數委員的版本是跟這個院版一致那這邊如果有這個不一樣的地方我請下請就這個個別委員來的提案來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
27543.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
27571.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
針對這個范雲委員這邊提到的是希望參考性供法第13條就第一項第一款的第二幕建議這個雇主可以對申訴人提供或轉介諮詢醫療跟諮商的或社會福利資源法律諮詢等等的服務那考量我們行政院版已經原則上已經涵蓋相關的協助跟服務內容那這個部分是不是在後續的執法我們會來明訂這些具體的規範所以這個部分建議維持行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
27572.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
27592.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
那在洪孟寒委員這邊有提到這個第二項建議新增這個參與職場霸凌申訴案的調查處理人員要準用這個行政程序法有關迴避的規定而且外部委員的部分專業委員不得與這個僱主跟事業單位有往來關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
27595.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
27614.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
考量這個部分我們在目前這個事業單位本身的調查人員的資格已經授權在第四項的執法明定所以這些人員跟事業單位不會具有這個僱傭承攬或特約或這個隸屬的關係那我們也會配合後面的法制作業將這個事業單位的調查人員小組的人員組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
27615.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
27640.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
資格還有調查的倫理等事項會參考性供法的機制再附屬法規或後面的行政規則來明定所以建議還是維持行政院版那第三項的部分建議說這個職場霸凌的成立的時候要登錄那目前行政院版是除了霸凌成立要登錄如果接受到這個申訴案也是要登錄所以範圍更廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
27642.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
27670.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
那第三項的部分委員建議說這個行為人為最高負責人的申訴需要成立這個調查小組然後調查小組的外聘委員這個比例不得低於二分之一那如果被這是是那就二二之二的部分這個說明到這裡然後我們還是希望是依照行政院版通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
27672.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
27673.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
好 請歡迎林淑穎委員 黃孟愷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
27678.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
27706.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
謝謝勞動部的回覆因為剛剛職場霸凌調查人力訓練這個部分侯孟楷委員也有發言過那這部分為什麼的話我就不再講了那關於身負的部分我還是覺得蠻重要的因為就是公務人員保障法安慰辦法那他們都有談到調查的程序中調查小組的外部委員不得少於二分之一因為這個是職場的霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
27707.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
27727.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
所以这部分的调查委员怎么定其实很重要还有申赋程序中第一个关于申赋的部分比较重要就是处理机制另外关于被霸凌者的支持服务主要是我们国家其实在其他的不管是校园或者是性平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
27729.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
27743.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
的机制里面都有设计就是提供转介咨询医疗心理资商社会福利及其他不要的服务那我们也希望劳动部是不是能够写得更具体明确那另外记录要给当事人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
27744.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
27763.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
其實包含我自己處理過的我們某知名醫院的陳情案那很多時候調查小組也不知道怎麼調查的也沒有外部委員然後就告訴他霸凌不成立那以我們看到的事證其實認為那個霸凌應該要成立所以如何能夠在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
27764.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
27793.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
調查後那就如同我想我們召委也有處理過的兒少虐待之類的相關當事人就會希望能夠拿到調查報告也希望能夠是不是能在這個法條中那當然我也知道勞動部現在是承諾說未來的執法就是都會寫所以我沒有一定要堅持就看大家的討論那我也可以用附帶決議的方式 以上好 謝謝 請聽蘇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
27796.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
27816.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
雖然這個署長有講說你們未來的執行細則什麼通通都會定但是我覺得有些事情必須以法律明定明白的寫下去才是比較好的比如說你要求調查程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
27816.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
27832.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
那外聘的委員或是相關的委員要有一些利益迴避的這個機制要有一些原則要委員不管是內部的或外部的要有一些利益迴避的機制我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
27834.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
27858.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
這個東西入法是比較明確是比較好的我覺得應該要放進去那我們在你再依據這個母法再去進行一些相關的細節的規範第一個第二個我有一點不懂就是說為什麼我們在比如說這個霸凌的人是最高負責人的時候交給地方政府去調查嗎那我們對地方政府的調查我們訂定了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
27860.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
27886.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
處理程序由我們中央來訂定但是呢這個司法人他自行公司內部調查的時候我們只訂準則基本上還是授權給這些司法人他們自己去訂定他們的相關的調查處理程序和人員的組成這樣子這個差異是什麼我想了解一下因為你只訂一個準則可是準則的強度 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
27888.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
27900.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
要到哪裡啦那後面為什麼就連那個程序都有我們來定這樣子但是我是堅持利益迴避原則一定要放進去這個是非放進去不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
27902.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
27918.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
來 請孔孟靜委員好 感謝主席我也認同剛剛我們幾位委員的講法其實這一個22條之二就是利益迴避的部分參與職場霸凌第一 職場已經被霸凌了那一個投訴者要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
27919.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
27939.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
陈情投诉已经相对来讲受到压力了因为他还是雇员之一嘛那我们更要确保是说参与职场霸凌申诉的调查跟处理人员第一你要有利益回避也就是行政程序法的回避规定那还有外部专业委员不得跟雇主或事业单位就本案以外的业务往来 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
27940.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
27958.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
請注意我這邊寫的是業務往來關係會比剛剛這個是司長嗎講的說你的執法令要講說僱傭承攬等等的我覺得範圍來得更廣為什麼因為有可能我要想的樣態它可能是小公司但它有可能是龐大的集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
27959.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
27976.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
现在有些那种社会上大型集团它的业务含瓜范围是超乎你的想象它有很多子公司那另外它的子公司如果说真的是上市柜然后大型的这种集团的话它可能方方面面十一住行都有那还有它有可能有法务 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
27977.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
28004.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
顾问等这一种不是典型的雇佣承揽的这种职务上的往来业务上的往来所以如果说真的在这种大型公司里面爆发霸凌的一个状况的话调查人员应该要有更明确的利益回避这是为什么我们希望是说能够在法条里面把它给明定上去就是不得与雇主或事业单位就本案以外之其他业务往来 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
28005.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
28021.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
我想这写得清楚应该会让大家更明确另外雇主于中央主管机关的网站登录内容应同时告知当事人而且也一样就如同刚刚范委员也讲到就说当事人他也很想要了解说到底我们现在处理的状况过程等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
28021.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
28049.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
那你在登陆在中央主管机关网站的时候其实如果说能够CC能够复建给这个同时知会告知当事人那不管是这个当事人是我们怎么样的一个设计让他同时告知那也会让当事人更可以明白了解说现在整个处理的一个进度跟状况是不是这两个部分可以在法条里面还是有所坚持我想22之2其实他就是最后一理路把它完善起来会更明确以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
28050.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
28072.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
不然等一下林淑美還要再表示意見紅委員就是說因為怕掛萬肉依就是說利益迴避這個外部委員到底跟事業單位到底有什麼樣的關係可能我們想像的都沒有辦法完備所以我是建議說應該是定一個需要利益迴避的原則的在母法當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
28073.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
28079.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
但是相關的細節或者是樣態什麼的交給他們授權給他們去施行細則訂定可能會比較否則你掛了一種那會被漏了更多種這樣子第一個第二個我們這裡面沒有談到如果調查程序違反了準則雖然我覺得對準則這個強度要放到哪裡有一點疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
28094.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
28123.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
但如果调查程序违反了准则的话我们法律要怎么处理我们要不要在里面明定如果调查的程序违反准则这个调查报告要不要认定为无效还是要修正它就好了还是要重启调查或者是说这个如果认定为无效的话那要不要开启外部机制第三方调查那有没有这样的一个机制是不是应该要这样子另外呢我在咨询的时候曾经谈过 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
28124.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
28148.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
就是說我們想像的大集團的公司裡面母公司監控比如說子公司那子公司他是一個獨立的法人他的調查報告都循著準則然後調查出來了可是母公司的董事會以他的金融的監督的這個母法的授權他要對於子公司所進行的調查進行干涉那應該要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
28150.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
28168.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
在這個機制裡面大概都沒有談清楚就是說金融監督的法律規範可以給予我們職安法的這個霸凌專章裡面的獨立調查權還有這個要求他們母公司說你再重新調查一遍可以真的再調查一遍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
28170.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
28186.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
這樣子行嗎如果每一個事情都可以這樣處理的話這個調查還會是公平的嗎所以我的意思是說有幾個要處理利益迴避是一定要的啦再來就是說如果調查違反了我們中央訂的準則那還有沒有效那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
28186.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
28211.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
不管有效還是要修正那處理的機制是什麼我們法律要不要明定出來然後再來我們講說這個我剛剛講的金融監督這個母公司對子公司的人事干預權而且董事會可以百分之百持股的話董事會可以百分之百的干預那要怎麼樣確保他的這個獨立調查的這個自主性呢來請部長同意回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
28216.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
28226.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
好有些部分我先先回應等一下請署長我第一個我不管是覺得這個呃外部委員要二分之一我當然是完全同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
28227.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
28252.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
那要设定人才库我也是同意的那包括利益回避我也是同意的但我的确会刚刚孟凯委员刚才提到一点是业务往来我会比较觉得会需要商榷因为我想要提说因为这一年多来其实很多单位都办理过很多的调查其实在这些调查里面坦白说外部人是很难找的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].start |
28254.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].end |
28282.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].text |
那有一些單位他找到比方說如果是他以前合作過的學者其實他們不一定有利益共屬的關係可是以前也許有過業務往來也許出席過他們的會議那這算不算業務往來那所以當如果業務往來全然不行的時候那其實我會有點擔心會很多就全部都被排除掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].start |
28284.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].end |
28308.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].text |
那找那個外部委員會非常非常難找因為業務往來那比方說我邀請一個專家諮詢會我曾經邀請過一個學者來然後他有拿過兩千塊的出席費這會不會也算業務往來可是我們不會說他拿過兩千塊出席費這就是利益的共利益的一致或者是他就必須要依附於我不見得 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].start |
28308.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].end |
28336.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].text |
可是當這個圈劃到業務往來的話我會擔心實務上面會很困難所以我是在想說能不能夠我們把那個圈就劃在利益迴避的概念上那只是剛剛講到說不管是二分之一我自己我是贊成二分之一可以入母法可是可不可以利益迴避跟人才庫有沒有可能用附帶決議的方式來進行或者是放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].start |
28338.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].end |
28357.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].text |
說明欄就是說我覺得要落文字我也贊成可是是不是這個字一定要落在母法的法條裡面就我覺得二分之一很明確二分之一就落到母法裡面我覺得應該是可以的但是人才庫是很直行端的事情那看能不能夠用 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].start |
28358.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].end |
28385.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].text |
附帶決議的方式來進行那我們這一定會做而且這也已經在做了只是利益迴避到底是要落在哪裡就是是否一定要放在母法裡面那這個事情我覺得也許大家可以做一些討論那至於剛剛在蘇芬委員講到那個準則的部分我想請蘇芳這邊來說明一下是 我補充一下剛剛部長提到的這個附帶決議其實王振旭委員跟林月琴委員還有劉建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].start |
28386.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].end |
28409.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].text |
已經有提到要求勞動部在附屬法規要明確的規定外部調查人的利益迴避跟倫理相關規範然後這個部分然後對於這個剛剛林委員提到的這個個案如果這個是現行職安法還沒有這個職場霸凌的一個相關規範那如果舉這個例子說子公司所做的這個調查結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].start |
28410.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].end |
28430.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].text |
然後母公司總公司去推翻如果以現行依照我們目前的草案的話這個基本上這個調查結果就應該被推翻那這個就違反規定那違反規定的話當然就是依照這個法就可以論處那至於說剛剛有提到這個準則其實它的準則是把現在的這個在這地 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].start |
28431.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].end |
28447.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].text |
22條之二裡面的各項裡面的細節都會在附屬法規裡面明定那違反這個準則就會對應到你違反哪一項那就是3到75萬或3到150萬都是有相關的對應的法則不是 你是處分啦但是說這個調查報告還有沒有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].start |
28448.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].end |
28464.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].text |
第一個第二個二分之一的外部委員這個是你認為可以入法可是你為什麼不覺得說利益迴避才是最關鍵的利益迴避甚至不一定是指外部委員內部的相關的有沒有需要利益迴避的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].start |
28465.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].end |
28486.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].text |
有沒有就是說你是跟他是什麼樣的特殊關係的或是什麼的有沒有可能我不知道啦大家一起討論那我剛剛還在講就是說違反準則所做成的調查報告有效無效這個東西需於法律明定喔否則的話會引起爭議喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].start |
28487.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].end |
28498.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].text |
你法律又沒有說又沒有說這樣就無效法律又沒有說這樣子以後就要重啟調查你只是說要處罰而已但是要都受處罰那這個調查還有沒有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].start |
28499.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].end |
28522.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].text |
跟我一個報告如果他的勞工不符這個調查像我們依照39條像檢查機構或主管機關申訴主管機關進場去檢查是你有沒有依照我們的準則的程序去進行對外聘委員二分之一還有這個有沒有違反這個剛剛講提到的這個對啦 違反準則了啦如果沒有違反的話都沒有違反的話那這個調查當然是成立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].start |
28523.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].end |
28545.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].text |
那我現在問的問題是如果違反準則了這個調查報告到底還算不算是一個正式的報告第一個第二個我剛剛講母公司跟子公司這件事情不是個案這一定是通案就是很多母公司對子公司擁有這個人事上還有業務上的這個絕對的控制權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].start |
28546.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].end |
28567.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].text |
那子宮是做出來了母宮是不滿意那他們要求要重新調查你說要怎麼處理我不曉得你說有處理的機制是用哪一條一樣22條之二在未來的附屬法規這個準則裡面政府會去明定如果說他程序不符 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].start |
28567.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].end |
28576.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].text |
你母法没有 母法没有授权你怎么去宪说说你这个不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].start |
28579.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].end |
28600.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].text |
你人民的權利義務法人也是法人你對於限縮他的這個權利的話一定要在母法先法律保留原則先定好才能授權給你們去定執法所以我才說這個子公司母公司金融監督的這個問題第二個調查報告違反準則還有沒有效的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].start |
28601.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].end |
28630.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].text |
這個都需要在還有利益迴避的問題你甚至二分之一才不一定是要在這個裡面訂定耶二分之一你的準則你就可以訂定了啊但是需要利益迴避是限制他的權利了限制權利的攸關到權利的才需要在母法訂定啊二分之一又沒有限制權利了對不對現在限制到個人權利的一定要在法律明定法律保留原則那這三個問題我就不知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].start |
28631.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].end |
28636.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].text |
你限制了他們的權利那法律有沒有放然後全部都交給你們在執法訂定這樣真的有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].start |
28661.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].end |
28668.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].text |
定定在法律之內所以這個東西一定要我個人認為是這樣我覺得這條可不可以先保留然後我們再跟幾位委員對於這相關的程序我們再做一點釐清這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].start |
28684.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].end |
28710.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].text |
好謝謝那我們22條之二先行保留齁繼續來討論行政院所提的22條之三那有民眾黨的所提民眾黨團所提的6之1跟6之2對不對還有幻雲委員所提的22之3 22之5然後還有王俊勳委員所提22之3林書偉委員所提22之3 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].start |
28712.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].end |
28733.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].text |
那再來 劉建國委員所提22之3還有林月琴委員所提22之3好 再來是這個黃孟愷委員所提修正動議第6案好 那我們請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].start |
28734.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].end |
28750.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].text |
好 勞動部說明目前看起來多數委員是跟行政委員一致那有不一樣的地方說明如下有關範圍委員提案建議說參考性供法32條之一就外部的申訴機制增訂這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].start |
28754.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].end |
28775.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].text |
僱主及僱主為處理或不服申訴人之僱主所為的調查或懲戒結果得盡向地方主管機關來申訴那我們的考量是因為在霸凌行為人為最高負責人的話他的內部申訴處理程序會有這個恐有失公平 公正跟公平之餘所以在目前的行政院版是建立這個外部的一個申訴調查機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].start |
28777.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].end |
28792.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].text |
那如果行為人非最高負責人依照我們剛剛22條之二的設計就回歸到這個公司的一個治理原則來處理所以有關最高負責人的範圍我們也會參考性供法的規定在附屬法規裡面去定名 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].start |
28792.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].end |
28811.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].text |
那另外這個本法所定的僱主也有可能是法人的身份所以跟第一項的行為人也有可能是自然的有別所以我們這個如果事業單位沒有盡到這個防治之責這個勞工還是可以依照這個第39條向主管機關或檢察機構來這個申訴實施調查予以追究責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].start |
28814.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].end |
28834.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].text |
那因為也考量到我們這個目前這個性騷擾這個我們職場霸凌跟性騷擾這個行為的樣態本質是不同所以也有考量到這個地方主管機關的一個量能所以目前的設計上這個有關於這個內部如果不服的一些處理結果還是回到公司的治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].start |
28835.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].end |
28858.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].text |
那另外范議員有提到這個政府機關最高負責人的申訴的時候考量這個公務人保障法的授權這個公務人執行植物安全衛生防護辦法的32條已經有定名那我們跟這個有個調查跟處理程序也有跟這個考試院的保訓會這邊做兩法之間的一些調和所以建議維持行政院版以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].start |
28860.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].end |
28863.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].text |
好 謝謝 那先請陳昭志委員 再請洪孟凱委員再請煥雲委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].start |
28866.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].end |
28891.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].text |
這條是新增的規範就是修法剛剛有提到是參考那個性別平等工作法第32條之一的精神主要的目的是在加強僱主處理職場霸凌或暴力事件內部申訴機制要加強因為同時建立外部的這個政府申訴與調查機制也就是說公司內部當公司內部能處理的時候那除了內部如果內部機制是不可靠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].start |
28891.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].end |
28909.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].text |
不可靠 其實我們看到很多受害者還是能向外部的公權力機關向地方政府來申訴確保是有可信公正的救濟所以具體來說如果員工遇到職場霸凌或暴力應該先透過公司內部這次程序來處理但如果加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].start |
28910.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].end |
28933.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].text |
加害人是公司的最高主管或老闆那內部制度就可能沒辦法公平的運作所以才會去規定說員工可以直接向地方這個時候員工可以直接向地方主管這個申訴那另外如果說對內部的這個調查處罰不滿也可以向地方申訴那保障員工權益那有關這個申訴的這個時間期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].start |
28936.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].end |
28955.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].text |
我觉得可以依照加害人的这个权势地位有两种状况那一般的状况就加害人没有这个特别的权势所以申诉必须在知道被侵害之日期两年内提出但如果已经超过五年就不能再申诉让制度有一定的这个稳定性但是如果加害人有这个权势地位例如主管或老板 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].start |
28956.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].end |
28982.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].text |
那因為受害者可能不敢馬上申訴 這個我們在很多場合都看到時間就放寬為更長 也許是三年 但如果已經過了七年就不再申訴那對於特殊情況也許要特別規定 譬如說北韓是為成年人可以在成年後的三年內再提出申訴那過去害怕申訴 直到新法通過宅感提出來 也一次有這樣的人喔那可依這次修法規定的期限特別來申訴 那離職後 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].start |
28984.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].end |
29012.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].text |
才敢申訴的人如果離開工作坊才擺脫的權勢壓力也能夠依照特別期限來提出這個申訴那最後參考這個訴願法做法就如果員工已經提出申訴但是主管還沒有做出處分前想要撤回也可以撤回但撤回後就不能再針對同一個事件重新申訴以免反覆的申訴維持這個法律的穩定性就我們黨這一條的精神基本上是這樣那不好意思我想在這裡跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].start |
29014.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].end |
29028.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].text |
勞動部板就院板的再確認一下請問這裡所謂的這個最高被申訴的最高負責人的時候不包括這個被申訴人是政府機關構的最高負責人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].start |
29030.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].end |
29051.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].text |
因為這個時候如果沒有包括的話我看到包括王一鳴委員等有提出來這個時候這個時候應該還有一個管道如果被申訴為政府機關構最高負責也那包含在裡面但是可能要清楚寫勞工可以向他的上級機關機關構提起申訴這個精神是一致的部長你聽到好像稍微停格還是我一聲說太多還可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].start |
29060.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].end |
29062.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].text |
因為有文字啦,就有文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].start |
29065.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].end |
29092.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].text |
我先说明其实这一条在处理的本意其实是参考性工法的最高负责人当时我们在三年前把这个洞给补起来那的确在设计上面还是有跟性工法不是那么一样完全一样的地方是在于但如果是最高负责人他的调查就要拉到地方的劳政主管机关因为这是一定的这没有异议 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].start |
29094.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].end |
29115.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].text |
但是当不是最高负责人的时候他能不能够再申诉到地方主管机关就目前我们的这一次的行政院版的版本的逻辑是他不是拉到上面去在去地方如果不是最高负责人是那个霸凌人的话非最高负责人霸凌的话 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].start |
29116.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].end |
29139.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].text |
他是用39条他其实可以请劳检外部的劳检来去确认他这个公司里面霸凌的程序有没有符合程序如果不符程序的话就要开罚所以他也是有一些外部的介入机制但的确没有到所有只要不服都可以跑到地方劳政机关因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].start |
29141.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].end |
29159.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].text |
確實地方政府一直跟我們表達地方政府的勞政機關的量能真的有限然後他們很怕所有只要不服因為兩邊去調查就是有或沒有只要有一方不服就要全部都要拉到地方勞政機關去然後都要拉一個調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].start |
29160.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].end |
29179.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].text |
他们很怕这个量能其实在地方政府是无法负担的所以也因为考虑到这件事情所以我们则选择了一个这个做法就是你还是可以跟地方主管机关来做外部要求外部接入可是他是针对内部的程序面跟预防跟程序面有没有完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].start |
29181.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].end |
29198.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].text |
如果沒有完成的話你就必須改正或者重的話你還是要重啟調查但是不是拉到地方勞政機關去調查我們是用這個方式去做折衷因為怕因為這主要真的是地方的勞政機關不斷跟我們說他們的量能真的沒有辦法了然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].start |
29200.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].end |
29224.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].text |
他们觉得什么如果什么案子都要跑到地方劳政机关那边去做做这个确认的话真的他们会很困难主要是他说这部分是先回应刚刚范议委员讲到部分我就继续跟他就这件事对话那如果很多过去量就是很让人承受不住那表示都是内部处理就有问题你可以换一个思考就是不服气就是觉得没有处理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].start |
29226.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].end |
29255.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].text |
才会往上送啊如果处理好跟丑媛说明我如果不管地方劳政机关我就答应了我如果不管这些地方劳政机关的量能我现在就答应我因为到时候要调查也不是我去调查但是我们是真的考虑到这个行政量能上面还是不是他不是一个无限的行政量能那希望让这事情能够顺畅在这边折其平衡才选择现在的这个做法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].start |
29258.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].end |
29259.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].text |
剛剛我談了好幾點你是要分開說明還是說我們這個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].start |
29266.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].end |
29290.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].text |
署長要補充剛剛委員特別提到說要不要區分為這個具權勢地位跟不權勢地位那我們考量這個職場霸凌的這個認定實際上是比較複雜而且相關事證的取得時效如果時間久了以後他這個行為人已經離職或是相關人證物證都沒辦法取得的話所以這樣子如果再這樣區分下去那或許 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].start |
29291.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].end |
29309.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].text |
調查是很困難所以我們是參考這個保障法19條跟信工法30條我們有明定的剛剛提到的這個行為終了13年或是說事件發生後的離職後一年內提出另外我們也考慮到國內的一個民間企業它平均的一個壽命不是很長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].start |
29310.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].end |
29335.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].text |
如果說這個部分所以我們認為說這個而且企業的一個時間因為時間久遠他的一些人事變化會變化很大所以在調查認定就更困難了所以我目前在處理上最高負責人是還是希望說我們就這個霸凌行為終了跟這個如果勞工在職或離職以後多久內要提起申訴這樣去要收集相關的人證事證可能在調查程序上會比較順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].start |
29336.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].end |
29352.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].text |
署長我我們剛剛我繼續就是剛剛的對話那個時間去你知道連連台大的不只台大這女醫師都要等到他考到專科執照以後他才敢去揭發很多事情因為他那個關係所以我們為什麼提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].start |
29354.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].end |
29369.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].text |
不然你就想辦法吧我是希望在母法啦如果不然你再看有沒有辦法用立法說明來處理這個因為你不能用那麼簡單說這公司可能存活年只有平均也許不到十年十幾年也沒得追究了這個說法好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].start |
29371.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].end |
29393.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].text |
說不過去就是說那事實上大家都會等幾乎沒有人敢第一時間站出來我們知道的案例都這樣政府機關也一樣都過了過了很久才發現才敢出來講政府機關最多就是去年就是一連串的就是這樣所以這個部分既然要修法了這個部分不處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].start |
29396.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].end |
29418.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].text |
那個署長想一下好不好然後我請這個洪本凱文先來講說再一併回應 好不好好 來 那個22-3那我這邊主要是要提到這個第二點的一個部分那如果說這個直轄市或縣市主管機關調查第一項的申訴案件的話你現在原文寫的是得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].start |
29420.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].end |
29444.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].text |
那我认为是说得应该是改成因啊因请专业人士那并且调查小组的成员外聘比例不得低于二分之一啊这跟刚刚我们在讨论22条之二又有点不一样因为22条之二比较讲的是说你这个事业内部的部分嘛那我们现在讲的22条之三其实是讲到的是如果说申诉的人是最高负责人那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].start |
29444.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].end |
29464.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].text |
向直轄市或縣市主管機關提起申訴那並且直轄市或縣市主管機關調查這個申訴案件的時候應該要請專業人士跟民間團體來協助辦理並且這個調查小組不得低於二分之一的一個外聘的一個比例我想這個部分其實跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].start |
29465.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].end |
29491.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].text |
我们现在都希望是说能够确保他的专业性跟公正性因为我还是强调因为未来发生的样态有很多可能是大企业或是小企业一般的企业跟大企业那大企业他的影响力是有些时候是很难以想象的那但是我们既然要做的话就应该要做到是说是可以保障他的一个专业性跟公正性以上谢谢好谢谢再请欢迎委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].start |
29493.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].end |
29520.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].text |
我這邊因為有些部分那個勞動部已經解釋過有放在說明文字或者是我原本的那個最高負責人的部分他已經處理所以我就講還沒有處理的部分我覺得重要的就是那個調查實現因為在院本22條之二第二項立法說明三有訂定調查處理期限因自調查小組成立後一日起第二個月內結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].start |
29521.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].end |
29548.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].text |
必要時得延長一個月並通知當事人那但是呢這條當由地方主管機關調查的時候就是比較嚴重的譬如說負責人的時候那卻沒有寫明調查時間所以我想這邊是不是能夠比照院本22條之二第二項立法說明定定調查時間也是一樣兩個月加必要的時候延長一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].start |
29549.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].end |
29563.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].text |
这是一个那另外一个也跟刚刚前面提到的那同样的调查的相关记录应停工与当事人是不是至少也能够写在立法说明中呢以上这两个议题 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].start |
29567.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].end |
29582.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].text |
好謝謝主席針對22條之三的第一項的部分我們也知道其實不管是中央主管機關尤其是地方主管機關自從姓名三法以後應該案件都蠻 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].start |
29584.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].end |
29606.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].text |
量蠻大的我想當然事情處理好的話除了除了這個這些委員素質或者是參與討論過程當中的用心以外那個量本身也會影響到整體的這些內涵所以不知道目前勞動部這邊有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].start |
29608.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].end |
29636.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].text |
辦法再讓大家確認一下有關於這個量能的處理部分如果相關的這些內容都要求要進到這個由主轄市或縣市的主管機關提起申訴像這樣的這個部分在量能處理上有沒有目前困難的地方或者是未來在執行的時候碰到這些量如果真的是超乎各個地方政府可以處理的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].start |
29637.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].end |
29658.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].text |
那有沒有什麼其他的解決方案或者是可以讓大家在這個過程裡面知道任何相關的這些霸凌個案是經過非常謹慎的而且是完整的機制下去讓不管是申訴人或者是被申訴人都能夠得到公平的對待那請我們的部會做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].start |
29663.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].end |
29688.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].text |
第一个是说很谢谢王远也帮忙考虑那个其实地方政府的状态其实就这一年来从去年的职场霸凌事件到现在来劳动部最常收到的协助请求就是很多的要霸凌的调查单位跟说我们真的找不到外部委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].start |
29690.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].end |
29705.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].text |
就是不断的来问我们说可不可以介绍外部委员给他们因为大家真的找不到那这当然我们要去设人才库那这人才库当然是一定要去设的可是我只是想要在这里是想提起一个事情是说当然我们都希望尽量的严谨 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].start |
29706.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].end |
29720.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].text |
可是也某部分需要让这个事情运作就当把他设定的他的资格限制的太高的时候在真的到时候那我们因为现在有二分之一吗那真的那个到时候的量会很大那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].start |
29721.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].end |
29748.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].text |
这部分我是觉得真的是会需要再多做考虑那刚刚范芸委员讲的几件事情包括希望比照22条之二的调查时间或者是希望最后要提供给当事我想这我们都可以配合看是不是用附带决议的方式我们都可以进行那二分之一的外部委员部分我们现在也是在立法说明栏里面其实都有明定那如果二分之一要把它摆到母法里面我想我们也是可以同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].start |
29752.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].end |
29770.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].text |
是 剛剛委員特別提到說那個把那個德改英實際上有一些個案在地方政府是不需要外聘委員就是剛剛部長提到如果說改英的話就所有的22個縣市只要任何一個這樣的個案進來全部都要外聘委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].start |
29770.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].end |
29799.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].text |
那如果真的是外聘委員的話都一定是超過二分之一因為就沒有內部委員所以這個部分是不是剛剛部長提我們在立法說明裡面處理不要定到這個條文裡面來是部長好啊 那先休息一下來做溝通對啦 但是我最後你說這樣他有多少因為他這個22-3被申訴人是最高負責人他不是說一般的中間主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].start |
29802.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].end |
29816.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].text |
所以我才會考慮是說當然有一些小公司小公司可能老闆那一個公司裡面就10個員工所以老闆校長兼狀中但是如果說今天就比較大一點是說這種大企業那最高負責人所以我這為什麼我們才講是說他其實應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].start |
29817.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].end |
29833.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].text |
他第一这个样态相对来讲不会说那么的多因为你第一你还是会先让公司内部成立所谓的这个霸凌调查小组我们现在讨论是说你已经直接申请到县市政府的时候是说那一个公司的霸凌者是最高负责人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].start |
29835.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].end |
29857.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].text |
那最高負責人的那個影響力就有大有小所以我們才會提到是說那就應該這樣子的話就應該要有外部委員二分之一以上來去做這個調查是不是這樣相對嚴謹也不會說怪異漏腕我們先休息五分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].start |
29897.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].end |
29901.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].start |
29919.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].end |
29919.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].start |
29944.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].end |
29945.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].start |
29964.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].end |
29968.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].text |
外部園 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].start |
29989.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].end |
29989.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].text |
副總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].start |
30001.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].end |
30026.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].text |
對 還是得但是這份自己可以當進口就這樣如果確定就要打消除了這份自己要買的那這樣就行然後我們有幾個主席的主席主席的主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].start |
30029.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].end |
30036.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].start |
30054.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].end |
30057.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].start |
30067.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].end |
30082.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].start |
30084.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].end |
30107.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].text |
對 所以所以所以所以所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].start |
30109.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].end |
30125.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].start |
30138.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].end |
30156.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].text |
但是他們說,因為他們沒辦法,所以他們自己... |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].start |
30157.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].end |
30187.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].start |
30191.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].end |
30218.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].text |
因為我怕說如果他們把它改掉的話會一直找這個然後他們以後希望就不再發生了我現在是一公斤一公斤一公斤一公斤一公斤一公斤要再找 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].start |
30226.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].end |
30246.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].text |
休息時間到 各位請就座我們審查到22條之3請行政機關立法說明還在 也沒辦法說明 因為部長還在溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].start |
30278.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].end |
30278.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].text |
請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].start |
30282.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].end |
30306.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].text |
行政機關請說明溝通結果是 剛剛跟洪委員這邊溝通就是剛剛講那個應請專業人士這部分可以保留用德 維持用德那至於說後面如果是有這個請外部的專業人士民間團體協助辦理的話那個比例要超過二分之一對 要入補法那這個條文我們正在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].start |
30309.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].end |
30334.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].text |
現在擬 正在擬還是要保留吧 還是可以馬上擬出來如果馬上擬出來 大家看沒有意見我當然就可以徵詢委員會讓他通過就多一句啦 外部委員比例不得低於二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].start |
30339.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].end |
30363.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].text |
外部委員比例不得低於二分之一是不是 大家看看如果說這樣這一句用紅色 對對 調查小組外部委員比例不得低於二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].start |
30368.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].end |
30393.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].text |
調查小組外部委員 怪怪的吧對啦 多一個吃法規同仁也看一下好不好這樣子的一個用詞利益迴避呢利益迴避呢好 OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].start |
30404.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].end |
30409.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].text |
外聘成員不...外聘對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].start |
30434.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].end |
30435.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].text |
現在是22-3嘛 對不對對啊 利益回避賽22-2對啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].start |
30449.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].end |
30467.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].start |
30470.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].end |
30497.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].text |
他們就說有 因為他們後面有 他們明明把二分之幾拿進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].start |
30497.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].end |
30497.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].start |
30587.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].end |
30587.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].text |
有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].start |
30614.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].end |
30637.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].text |
他這已經拿到外面了所以就地方政府來說對於這個企業全部都是外部 原本就是外部了他已經是外部 他不是企業內部了大理在企業內部發生可是他已經是拉上去 是外面在調查的那我們過分的講 沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].start |
30645.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].end |
30656.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].text |
好像我們講的 因為他這裡他跟我說 可是你安眠空間 要去到管理人會這裡在順便問一下 政府跟我講的 為什麼呢 其他我好像沒有特別要問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].start |
30657.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].end |
30675.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].text |
現在溝通比較穩定了,說話差不多了沒有了溝通了差不多了,OK啦OK啦好啦好啦你話啊,你來說啊,你來說,你來說,你來說,你來說,你來說,你來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].start |
30695.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].end |
30696.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].text |
好,不然就先這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].start |
30725.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].end |
30750.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].text |
因為它之後比較放鬆因為它不反正 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].start |
30753.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].end |
30775.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].text |
召委現在算是開會還是在休息不好意思現在還是算開會啊只不過他們沒有遵循往例自己都跑上來講不停我也很難嚇阻好然後呢請說明跟協調時候結果來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].start |
30777.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].end |
30805.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].text |
我們剛才是跟洪委員在討論是說能不能夠就是還是得啦那原因是因為這一條22-3它其實指的不是事業單位它指的是已經是最高負責人拉到地方政府去那地方政府希望保留它有兩種可能一種可能它是自己調查另外一個是它委專業團體或者是專業人士可是即便地方政府自己調查其實對於這事業單位來說也是一種外部 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].start |
30805.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].end |
30830.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].text |
它并不是事业单位的内部所以比较不用特别担心说好像我们之前刚刚在讲要外部委员二分之一这件事一定要坚持这件事因为拉上去它其实也是一种外部所以是不是能够还是保留原本的得请专业人士或民间团体来协助办理让地方政府在处理这件事情是有一点空间的因为如果应的话就等于它不能自己办理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].start |
30834.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].end |
30851.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].text |
其實部長你講的沒有錯就是我剛剛我們在休息時間已經講過所以說我沒有堅持說要變成陰就維持現在得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理這沒有問題但後面要不要加後面那一句現在紅色的字這個其實我現在一直在思考的地方因為這可能很多樣態那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].start |
30854.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].end |
30873.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].text |
有一些样态是我刚刚讲了嘛就有些样态是这个公司规模比较小所以说他的公司负责人他可能没有那么有实质影响力所以说我现在丢出去我有外部委员就是组成一个调查小组然后外部委员二分之一以上来去做调查那这样子就可以厘清因为为什么内部委员跟外部委员其实还是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].start |
30873.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].end |
30893.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].text |
还是考量点就是说我们又希望有外部委员专家的一个专业又不希望官官相护但是如果说全部都是外部委员的话会不会发生另外的情况就是外部委员他没有公权力相对来讲比较会不会也有可能会受到大企业的影响 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].start |
30894.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].end |
30905.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].text |
所以说我现在才会思考是说如果说在这一个22条之3的话是不是你那个不要写的那么就是还是保留这样的一个弹性如果发生有一些样态譬如说 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].start |
30906.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].end |
30935.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].text |
他是大超大企业的这个最高主管最高负责人被告那大企业大到是可以他直达天厅比如说他也跟县市长很熟他也跟这个行政院长什么大家都熟那我们能不能说这个调查小组他就是有内部有外部的人员一起来做调查但是外部专家学者不得低于二分之一这个就是把它给保留下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].start |
30936.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].end |
30965.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].text |
因為你剛剛試著說服我是說不用加後面那一句因為你講是說現在縣市政府全部都丟出去給外部委員是那如果說有自己做也有委外的話那這樣子就是應該要加這一句啊那我覺得加這一句大家沒有意見的話我們就把加這一句然後就是就讓他符合調查小組的構成要件那並且就是說我們要求就是說外部委員不得低於就專家學者不得低於二分之一那保留他一個彈性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].start |
30967.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].end |
30984.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].text |
那你如果說有一些縣市政府如果說爭議性沒有那麼大的一個案件他全部都委外變成是全部百分之百都是外部專家學者那其實最後他們做出來的調查回歸到勞工局勞工局他們在做最後認定去開罰也是可以啊這個我還是請行政單位還是還宏偉再思考一下因為剛剛你用的隱喻嘛如果是大大大大這個企業跟地方的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].start |
30997.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].end |
31022.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].text |
的官員甚至是首長給我直接關心嘛那我們後面是應他們應是要強調就是要組成這個外部的成員要有歐元值以上嘛我們還是要確保這個事情嘛但是前面卻是得啦前面你是用得嘛對不對你如果得 得也不得啊要也不要如果沒有的話不處理後面就沒有了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].start |
31023.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].end |
31048.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].text |
如果現在調整成是說前面是寫得請專業人士或民間團體協助辦理然後如有組成調查小組者這個法律寫這樣怪怪的啦外聘成員比例不得少二分之一我們那個法務部參事在我們可以請教他那法律用寫如有如有花生吃妹 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].start |
31052.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].end |
31080.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].text |
來 參事能不能幫我們說明一下這個法律用詞這樣可以嗎如有在這個地方跟主席跟委員報告在這個地方用不好意思 那部長那個如果用如有我們通常在法條裡面比較少見啊除非你說但書或者是什麼大概比較少如有這樣的用詞似乎在這個地方可能要考量一下謝謝汪常事你剛剛前面是得啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].start |
31081.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].end |
31106.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].text |
得就已經不是一個肯定的東西了後面又多一個盧友這個不要定成法律這樣是怪怪的好不好勞動部勞動法務司報告如果這個語意上面覺得不是很妥適的話可不可以改成說由組成調查小組之必要者其外聘成員比例不得少於二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].start |
31107.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].end |
31132.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].text |
那這樣子我們就給縣市政府彈性他如果覺得說真的是像洪委員講的是一個很大的企業必須耗費比較多的人力去處理這一件事情因為他有時效的壓力所以有組成調查小組織必要者那就讓縣市政府去衡量他的量能有沒有必要那外聘成員不得少於二分之一就是他處理程序上面的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].start |
31133.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].end |
31137.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].text |
法律是我們在訂的啦我們沒有去規範什麼叫做有其必要者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].start |
31149.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].end |
31165.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].text |
那只是在文字上面怎麼樣子比較符合體力我是覺得這條我們就先保留好不好然後我們跟大家把這個符合法制的體制的文字我們把它給擬出來那也許第二輪大家再來確認好不好好謝謝了好不好因為這個條文定下來絕對會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].start |
31166.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].end |
31195.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].text |
可能會破紀錄的不確定性的一種條文啦不明確啦 不明確那周委沒有問題就那這樣子可能明天拿出這個你們的這個修改版本吧那也參考一下我的附帶決議的寫法其實我的寫法是說是要成立德我本來寫因啦但是我被你們說服我覺得認為可以用德所以說德委請專業人士或民間團體成立調查小組調查那調查小組成員外批比例不得低於二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].start |
31196.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].end |
31206.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].text |
好不好 就參考一下那你們明天把你們認為可以的文字拿出來謝謝好 謝謝謝宏偉 謝謝那我們22條之三就先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].start |
31207.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].end |
31227.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].text |
好 那我們繼續來審查這個臺灣民已經不在了然後煥雲委員也不在了應該是臺灣民眾黨的六至三跟有兩位委員二十二之四這個我們就不予處理了因為人都不在現場然後繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].start |
31234.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].end |
31247.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].text |
對 歡迎委員的二十二條之六還有修正動議廖偉祥委員的 也都不在所以也不予處理來繼續 一樣是歡迎委員所提二十二條之七還有修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].start |
31250.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].end |
31272.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].text |
對不起 陳慶威委員 因為人都不在現場 所以不予處理22條48也是幻影委員所提的修正 對不起 所提的條文草案也不予處理那繼續審查行政院所提23條 那委員有在場委員有黃俊旭委員對不起 劉建國委員還有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].start |
31279.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].end |
31291.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].text |
就這樣那修正同意其實是孟愷委員所提修正同意第七案對嗎是嗎對OK好謝謝那請行政機關先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].start |
31302.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].end |
31323.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].text |
多數委員跟行政院版本是一致的齁那林月琴委員提案的部分有部分的是剛剛有說明的就是是不是要加入這個身心健康這個身心的部分我們認為是這個不需要加入這個身心那就是目前是希望依行政院版通過齁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].start |
31334.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].end |
31352.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].text |
我知道 跟洪孟淮委員這個部分在23條的後面的倒數一項二項有提到這個預防勞工免於發生職業災或職業病受惑者因普通傷病疾病等等這個德醫法申請病假 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].start |
31354.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].end |
31367.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].text |
顧主不得拒絕那跟委員報告因為在治安法裡面大概過去以來就一直沒有出現所謂的這個價別的部分這個價是在屬於比較屬於勞動條件是在勞動基準法的部分這部分是我們請市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].start |
31370.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].end |
31397.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].text |
這個部分會前我們剛剛休息的時候有跟紅委員這邊溝通就紅委員這邊同時跟這一條有關的病假權的保障有一個附帶決議那我們跟紅委員溝通是不是這個附帶決議的部分裡面有提到的要求勞動部承諾的第一點明定的部分就是承諾將於勞動基準法或相關法規中明定普通傷病假等等等等明定修正為嚴議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].start |
31399.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].end |
31404.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].text |
就是附帶決議的附帶決議 洪委員這邊有一個附帶決議跟這一條有關的好沒有 你們要講附帶決議可能人家有提的通通要講一遍的不是只有講一位委員喔因為這個病假的事情大家非常重視所以可能要講清楚一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].start |
31427.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].end |
31443.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].text |
那個好我我知道婚戴決議是最後處理不過他已經針對這個條文有回應黃孟愷委員所提的修正動議第七案他要在互待決議裡面處理所以我才會特別因為他已經有講了所以我就必須要講了是這樣啊你都逼我給很緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].start |
31447.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].end |
31468.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].text |
好因为很多委员都因为这个强荣航空的空服员的案件很关心关于病假的权利那我想老虎可以在这边做一个说明第一个其实关于病假的权利要怎么样子不会因为公司的管理制度而让劳工遭受到恐惧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].start |
31469.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].end |
31489.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].text |
婴儿不敢请甚至必须要报病上班的这个事情其实我们已经在大概一两周前那我们已经展开关于劳工请病假的权利要如何更进一步的保障的法治化相关的原意 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].start |
31490.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].end |
31516.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].text |
那当然现在的阶段是法规当然可能有几种不同的法规的做法我们其实也在演绎它的优点跟缺点那其中也包括这段时间大家也常提到的在劳工请假规则里面来去做保障所以我们是可以接受说是不是可以如果因为放在这个23条其实23条不是在处理病假的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].start |
31517.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].end |
31539.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].text |
那虽然他是有谈到预防可是或者是一个职业安全卫生管理的计划可是把一个病假的权利放在23条其实会让这个这个治安法尤其这个条文的立法的体制会蛮奇怪的所以那我们也愿意如果委员同意的话我们其实可以来拟一个附带决议那这个附带决议也来要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].start |
31540.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].end |
31558.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].text |
勞動部針對勞工請病假的權益那可以來研議用相關的法規來去做這些更進一步的保障那我想我們也可以同意用這個方式來進行這件事情那不一定一定要放在這個職安法裡面的這個條文啦這樣子好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].start |
31560.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].end |
31587.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].text |
好 感谢赵伟那个赵伟非常的英明所以23条你讲到附带决议是之后才处理对 不过23条这边因为我特别有提到是说我希望是能够把它入法就是这个不应该因为请病假而有任何明文的规定去变成说扣全勤奖金还是考机等不利处分我想这个是我们大家一致的一个共识跟方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].start |
31588.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].end |
31614.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].text |
那既然沒有這個條文的部分我不修正但是那個附帶 我不堅持啦但附帶決議的部分我這邊就是剛剛有特別提到就是說我可以同意把民定改成延譯那但是是不是能夠請部長這邊告訴我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊什麼時候出來我知道你現在已經對媒體講了就是說延譯中那也知道是說一定要快速嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].start |
31614.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].end |
31642.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].text |
因为让大家知道是说我们有规则可循嘛那什么时候能够研议出来我觉得这比较重要那附带决案是三个月嘛三个月内有没有办法我想三个月应该是没有问题没有问题那就依照附带决议通过那附带决议通过那就跟这个是一样的法定效应那就三个月内一定要出来我先跟大家报告因为其实病假因为病假的样态真的蛮多的因为一个劳工有30天的这个半薪的病假 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].start |
31643.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].end |
31660.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].text |
那病假樣太多所以其實要比較周延的把各種的狀況去做思考其實我們也在跟一些專家學者在做討論但是在這件事情上面我們也其實也不會想要拖延但是因為相關的原因相關的原因也希望要周圍也包括會需要一些配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].start |
31661.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].end |
31673.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].text |
那去避免一些大家可能不樂見的極端的狀況會發生所以請給我們一點時間但是我們是很願意來做這些相關的研議的你就三個月內好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].start |
31674.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].end |
31701.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].text |
部長剛剛說可以了嘛主席再裁示一下他現在就承諾那我們在互代決議的時候可能我們會再請部長能不能再把時間縮短一點因為我們要努力的目標就是讓他入法不過是入到哪一個法律才是比較民正嚴順甚至也可以真正去保障到勞工請假這樣的權利好 謝謝所以我們第23條我們就依照行政院的版本來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].start |
31702.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].end |
31713.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].text |
好 謝謝那繼續處理第二四條 院盤二四條然後王振興委員也是二四條還有分別有劉建國委員 王振興委員還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].start |
31715.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].end |
31739.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].text |
好在現場就如此那請行政機關說明目前在場委員的提案對不起我先處理一下開會時間是不是到5點半我們是開會議程是到5點半通知時間到5點半那各位是不是有一定的體力要再去加強要延長主席一定依照各位的期待來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].start |
31741.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].end |
31767.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].text |
他們都搖頭 好 我們就到5點半 謝謝好 繼續 好 謝謝目前在場委員的提案都跟行政院版相同所以我們建議照行政院版的提案通過好 各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有 第24條就依照行政院所提的版本來通過 繼續審查第26條那院版26條提出草案還有在場委員有王振旭委員還有劉建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].start |
31770.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].end |
31798.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].text |
就這樣 來請行政機關說明除了王振旭委員提案以外多數委員都跟行政院版都是相同那王振旭委員提案的部分在行政院版的第一項裡面增加要求事業單位要以及事業交付承攬要於事前交付承攬的時候事業要實施風險評估及管理等事項這部分可以解決目前危害告知普通流於形式的這樣的一個問題所以可以避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].start |
31799.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].end |
31813.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].text |
這個風險之際的傳遞不足還有管理一些落差而導致的災害事故我們建議是依照這個行政版修正通過不是參考參照委員王正旭的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].start |
31814.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].end |
31837.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].text |
主席他參照你的提案你還有話要說你就說吧我們第26條希望能夠就剛剛署長所提到的內容來加以補強所以把一些該有的風險評估事前都能夠跟承攬人做一個完整的確認以後讓他知道後面的承接可以注意的事項以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].start |
31839.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].end |
31846.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].text |
好謝謝那我們就依照王振旭委員所提的26條的查案來通過好繼續審查院盤所提27條那委員王振旭委員劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].start |
31857.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].end |
31880.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].text |
好 那我們還是先請行政機關來做說明是 針對王振旭委員提案的部分提案版本在行政院的版本裡面第一項增加機械設備 器具人員的進場管制可強化這個原子力單位的一個管理責任可以督促這個 督促這個原子力單位確實掌握這個施工現場的一些機械設備跟器具人員的進出狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].start |
31881.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].end |
31902.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].text |
避免工地因為施工的安全管理鬆散善事使用未經過檢查合格或不符合法規的一些機械設備器具而且也可以防止僱用未完成法定訓練的勞工所以這部分我們是建議可以照王勝旭委員的提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].start |
31903.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].end |
31928.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].text |
好 謝謝 請問委員好 謝謝署長剛剛說明的確目前的工地真的越來越複雜所以如果針對之前發生的一些個案知道器械設備器具跟人員之間的進場如果沒有經過很完整的管制的話這個風險是提高的所以我們才把這個第五款加進來希望讓整體的這個管制都能夠更為周全以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].start |
31929.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].end |
31942.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].text |
好謝謝那我們27條就依照王振旭委員所提的草案來通過那繼續審查院版所提27條之一那委員還有委員王振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].start |
31943.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].end |
31969.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].text |
委員劉建國也都有提出27條之一草案行政機關先行說明是 目前委員所提的版本都跟行政院版本大致一致只有部分的一個文字不大一致不過整個立法方向是一致的所以我們建議還是照行政院的提案通過好 各位委員針對27條之一有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].start |
31971.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].end |
31987.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].text |
那如果沒有那我們第27條之一就依照行政院所提的草案來通過那繼續審查行政院所提第32條草案還有委員王正旭委員劉建國一樣有所提這個32條草案我們必須來討論請行政機關做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].start |
31989.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].end |
32016.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].text |
好 針對王振興委員跟劉建國委員的提案都跟行政院版相同那有關於林苑琴委員連署的部分有一些針對這個勞工的一個教育訓練基本上在我們另外的附屬法規都有明定所以我們建議是不是還是照行政院版的提案通過好 各位委員針對第32條有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].start |
32019.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].end |
32049.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].text |
那如果沒有的話我知道啦你們都這樣喔好奇怪有時候就像這樣有時候會看到不好看的東西好32條各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們就照行政院所提的草案來通過好謝謝那因為因為問一下有沒有要再進來如果沒有我們就要處理了我要再重新宣讀一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].start |
32070.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].end |
32085.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].text |
好 我再重新做個宣告啦因為剛剛這組沒有特別提醒了22條之6原有這個委員換言所提的啦22條之6 22條之7 22條之8我們改為不予採納啦不是不予處理 這重新公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].start |
32087.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].end |
32096.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].text |
然後因為已經27分了他如果再不進來我們還是沒辦法處理下去了好謝謝合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].start |
32117.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].end |
32145.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].text |
所以32條就照行政院版本通過了然後第34條因為委員所提的委員都不在現場我們就不予採納第35條也一樣所提草案的委員通通不在現場也不予採納第37條一樣委員不在現場就不予採納那繼續審查院版第39條所提草案還有委員王振旭委員林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].start |
32147.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].end |
32154.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].text |
劉建國委員林月琴好 那請行政機關先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].start |
32155.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].end |
32180.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].text |
好第39條是有關於第39條委員劉建國的提案基本方向上是跟行政院版一致只有文字的部分的文字一些調整所以這個部分我們建議維持行政院版那林月琴委員提案的部分有關於違反職場霸凌防治規定的申訴我們已經包含在現行的這個行政院版的條文對違反本法的規定的範圍已經有涵蓋在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].start |
32180.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].end |
32191.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].text |
無需這個另外名列所以我們建議是維持行政院版依照行政院版通過不要講了來請林月琴委員說明主席你的343537應該是維持現行條文吧對請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].start |
32203.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].end |
32223.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].text |
沒有我剛講說你剛因為講說事實上是照行政原本可是應該是維持現行條文343537應該是維持現行條文不是有委員提案的我是不予處理這樣不予採納對不予採納就是維持現行條文對不對應該這麼說好我們現在是在處理第39條對39條你為什麼兇兇跑去那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].start |
32232.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].end |
32242.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].text |
好了 時間到了就照行政院版通過好不好 第三條委員是不是我們依照行政院版所提的草案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].start |
32243.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].end |
32262.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].text |
好沒有意見好那3月9號就叫行政院所提的條文草案來通過好我們今天會議到此結束做一下決議職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案等31案尚未審查完略於明日上午專題報告詢答結束後繼續審查那本日會議到此結束現在休息謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].start |
32277.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].end |
32277.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].text |
谢谢大家 |