| IVOD_ID |
16977 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16977 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-22T08:37:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-22T12:13:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:35:19 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc8a46bec1ad1976d3b46a34199584822b0aa126c40303dc271de0f2960ab3b0095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:37:41 - 12:13:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1380.368 |
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報告委員會初席委員10人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好各位委員還有各位官員早安那現在開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1396.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1423.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期司法及法治委員會第三次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百日四年十月十五日星期三上午九十二分至十一時五十四分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十三人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等四人列席官員監察院代理秘書長王增華主席莊昭及委員瑞雄報告事項依宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1425.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1442.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
二 邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫並備質詢本次會議有委員黃國昌等12人提出質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢十 要求提供相關資料會議順便答覆者請相關機關競輸送交 個別委員及本會宣讀完畢好 那現在會場上已經有兩位委員已經答法定人數那請問各位上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1454.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1481.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
沒有 好 沒有的話就錯誤或沒有錯誤或遺漏但以我們的意識度就確定那麼現在我先介紹到場的委員以及應邀列席官員首先先介紹黃國昌委員然後羅志強委員好 謝謝然後接著就是今天主要是邀請司法院來做立法計畫報告所以這邊的話就是由王梅英副秘書長來代替報告好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1484.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1504.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那其餘沒有介紹的列席代表那我就請參院名單不再逐一的介紹並且列入公報記錄那本次會議議程排定是邀請司法院的副秘書長列席說明立法計畫並被質詢那麼我們就先請王副秘書長先進行報告報告時間以五分鐘為限好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1513.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1535.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
主席各位委員還有各位女士先生大家早安本人很榮幸應邀向貴委員會報告司法院本年度的立法計畫敬請各位委員會與私教及支持第一點是因應112年憲判自第9號及14號判決相關的刑事訴訟法修法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1536.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1552.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那其中呢 明定法官在再審或者是非常上訴程序的自行迴避是由第二呢 排除同一個檢察官曾於再審或非常上訴前的訴訟程序執行職務的迴避是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1552.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1574.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第三呢明定律師或者是辯護人與被告或犯罪嫌疑人秘密溝通的記錄或因此所身的文件資料不得作為證據而扣押那以保障憲法第15條律師的工作權還有是憲法16條被告的訴訟權第二點呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1575.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1600.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因应113年宪判第8号相关的刑事诉讼法部分条文修正草案那为了完善故意杀人案件的刑事程序符合宪法最严密的正当法律程序要求修正刑事诉讼法相关规定以保障人民生命权另外强化诉讼参与人的被害人程序地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1602.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1624.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
並且因應修法現況及社會安全的需求增修預防性羈押適用範圍的規定第三點有關少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案其中主要分為兩個部分第一個是處遇的多元化 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1625.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1654.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那位立少年法院呢可以适时的依少年需求弹性调整保护处域呢增订少年法院可以是少年需求转换保护管束安置辅导等的保护处分机制第二个是关于前案图销部分少年前案的处分或者是刑职执行完毕或赦免后三年内呢没有再受他案的处分或刑职宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1654.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1680.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
其前案才視為未曾受該宣告等的相關規定第四點是因應113年憲判自第八號法院組織法第105條修正草案為了符合113年憲判自第八號關於科除死刑何怡婷評議的判決意旨修正法院組織法第105條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1682.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1709.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那第五個呢是有關於法院組織法第三七條之一第三十七條之二第三十九條及第十一條附表第三三條附表修正草案那這是關於台灣高等法院增設司法事務官及記證還有明定高等法院為第一類法院調整地方法院的原額表那使法院目前的人力運用現況跟原額表契合 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1713.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1728.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
調動成本以上所提的草案部分呢少年事件法處理部處理部分條文修正草案已經含送貴院審議那敬請各位委員不吝指教謝謝好謝謝王副秘書長的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1736.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1757.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
並請列入公報記錄接下來我們就開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時候延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長發言時間是到上午10點30分截止我們接下來就先請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1764.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1770.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 謝謝主席 是不是麻煩有請副秘書長好 請王副秘書長那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1785.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1810.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
好 副院長找我今天看到司法院114年立法計畫的報告看了 老實說因為非常單薄我不曉得要看什麼所以呢我就自己去找了司法院115年度施政計畫綱要這個施政計畫綱要是司法院院會通過的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1814.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1842.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
是不是司法院院會通過的是司法院會議什麼時候通過的什麼時候通過的這個還要再查對啊您是副秘書長今年司法院的會議開了幾次司法院會議開了幾次您是副秘書長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1843.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1858.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
今年司法院會議開了幾次那個委員抱歉因為事務繁多所以沒辦法詳細沒有關係我直接跟你講四次等一下我們會進入這個這個是不是通過司法院會議的施政綱應該有在那個院會中討論有在院會中討論嘛討論多久你還記得司法院會議你有沒有開有討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1874.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1898.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為先前都有很多的會前會是逐一討論是沒有關係總共累計討論了多久沒關係我知道你們作業很嚴謹有會前會然後到會議那我的問題很簡單這個到司法院會議不管是會議當下還是所有的會前會加起來討論了多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1905.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1929.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這是司法院115年施政計劃綱要這很重要啊代表了司法院未來一年要幹什麼事嘛我要了解司法院未來一年要幹什麼事我除了看司法院115年施政計劃綱要以外我找不到更權威的文獻可以讓我理解這件事啊所以請問這個115年施政計劃綱要 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1936.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1954.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
討論了多久 多少人參與報告委員 現在手上的資料這是在114年8月1號的時候司法院第215次會議通過的討論了多久當天是有半天的行程你剛不是說還有會前會總共討論了多久 你不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1963.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1991.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
妳不知道我沒有辦法去詳細把每次那個會議所有的時間加總沒有關係妳大概跟我講一個時間嘛討論了兩個小時三十分鐘兩天都可以啊我沒有要幾分幾秒有討論到一天嗎整個加起來在院會的時候沒有討論到一天沒有啦我剛剛就講了還有前面會前會嘛對啊我讓妳全部加起來加起來有一天嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1995.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2012.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有沒有各廳處的會前會由秘書處主辦的應該是有半天的時間所以加起來有半天的時間第二個問題這本是誰寫的上面壓的是我們的司法院第215次會議通過114年8月1號司法院第215次會議通過秘書處會診的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2022.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2029.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
祕書處會診嘛 會診完了以後到院會是行李如一 照案通過還是真的有討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2033.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2061.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
因為這個會議資料事先有發給大家所以說就那個有問題的部分就是大家有意見的部分提出來討論所以我現在的問題沒有關係你回去查會議紀錄依照司法院的會議規則司法院的會議規則裡面要詳細哪些事項應該很清楚嘛那我現在的問題來了為什麼在司法院的網站上針對司法院會議每一次的會議紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2063.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2092.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你們根本沒有公開啊有公開嗎 沒有立法院的院會什麼時候開始什麼時候結束發生了什麼事很清楚行政院院的院會也是一樣考試院的院會也是一樣現在最讓我看不懂的是司法院司法院的會議記錄是密件嗎是嗎這不是密件那可不可以公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2095.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2113.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
現在你們沒有公開啊司法院的施政計畫不是要公開透明讓人民了解司法更接近司法為什麼不公開 可以公開嗎委員這個部分我們回去那個研議那就是需要研議多久 再研議兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2116.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2143.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
需要研議多久那個 私密件你就把它遮起來嘛現在我搞不懂啊不管我國是三權還是五權的國家司法權很重要希望公開透明 了解司法院在幹嘛結果為了要了解司法院在幹嘛我老實說 我還蠻辛苦的我還自己要去找這個來看看完了以後看是哪一次會議通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2144.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2170.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
結果那一次會議根本沒有公開會議記錄就一個重要事項說通過這個東西來來來來來我直接秀給你看啊我來質詢以前我一定有準備來看一下這個是你們司法院就有一個216次院會重要決議然後呢就簡單幾行字來看一下司法院會議規則司法院會議規則裡面要記載哪些事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2175.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2196.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
通通都有寫第二個我就看不懂司法院會議規則以每個月舉行一次為原則結果過去三年每年舉辦四次所以司法院會議看起來不是很重要嘛你們自己寫的會議規則每個月要舉行一次為原則必要時還可以加開 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2198.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2206.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
結果我看到的是一年開四次然後公告的內容非常的頻繁讓我沒有辦法了解司法院到底在幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2208.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2234.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
可以公開嗎沒有關係你們要不要公開到網站上面你們自己回去研議既然你說不是密件的話過去三年不好意思請你聽我的問題可以嗎過去三年每一次司法院每一次會議的會議記錄會後送到我辦公室可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2235.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2262.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你要不要在網站上公開你們回去研議但你剛說不是密件過去三年每一年只開四次會議規則說每個月要開一次結果你們整年只開四次沒有關係這以後我們審預算再來處理司法院自己帶頭違法但沒有關係過去三年每一次院會的會議記錄會後送到我辦公室可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2264.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2287.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
報告委員 那個目前我們剛查的結果是把那個就是通過的這個內容我是套嘛所以會後把會議記錄送給我可以嗎詳細那個會議記錄內容的話那我們會依規定來處理就是依相關的我們中華民國相關的那個法律規定來處理哪一些可以對外公開的沒有關係沒有關係你們回去自己看 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2289.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2318.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你們就依照中華民國的法律相關法律處理我第一次聽到法律人講話這麼含糊籠統的沒有關係你回去慢慢研議第二個我還是要跟你講這個115年施政計畫綱要我看完了以後我覺得似曾相識我為什麼覺得似曾相識因為114年度施政計畫綱要我之前也拜讀過 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2320.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2348.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我一直看奇怪怎麼跟我上一份看的施政計畫綱要我似曾相識我想說不對啊這份報告我看過啊但我明明是最新download下來看的怎麼會似曾相識結果我去比對我比對114年度跟115年度施政計畫綱要裡面是大量的抄襲抄襲這個字司法院可能不喜歡用 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2349.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2368.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
大量的複製貼上每一個國字標點符號段落一模一樣我判為官職我們的司法院院會一年開四次 很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2369.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2394.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我想說重要的事情都要提到上面去討論結果討論出來的結果是什麼討論出來的結果是我們竟然在討論一份大量抄襲的文件你們這些與會的官員去開司法院院會的官員都不會覺得丟臉嗎丟人現眼一堆大官 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2395.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2423.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
坐在那邊討論一個大量抄襲的文件是我們新的施政計畫綱要嘆為觀止啊是不是可以請司法院回去整理115年施政計畫綱要跟114年施政計畫綱要用學術比對軟體下去比對現在軟體很多啦抄襲的比例有多少 可以做這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2424.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2445.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那個報告委員有關於那個司法事項事實上他的施政是有延續性的我瞭解我瞭解這個都有延續性但是我看完了以後我讀不到延續性我讀到的是停滯性完全停止啊完全停止才會用一模一樣的字句嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2447.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2473.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我看不到延續性啊 我知道啊每個部會都說有延續性啊其他的部會最起碼還會把數字改一改但我看到的不是延續性 是停滯性Stop因為文字一模一樣段落一模一樣 標點一模一樣是整段一模一樣 整頁一模一樣一頁又一頁一模一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2475.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2500.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這種東西拿到司法院會議去討論四個字 令人汗顏再加四個字 丟人現眼回去比對跟我講有多少是複製貼上可以嗎我們會遵照辦理好 會遵照辦理 需要多久的時間很快啦 因為重複的比例太高了啦甚至電腦沃德黨的底稿拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2502.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2526.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
看開院會以前花了多久的時間改了幾個字答案就出來了啦 非常迅速啊但我今天啊 最嚴肅的要問什麼為了落實撕改國事會議的決議我們推動法院組織法的修正民進黨不做 在野黨來做今年法院組織法修法落實撕改決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2527.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2555.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我知道針對這個修法不管是司法院還是法務部從頭反對到底你們反對有你們的立場我尊重你們反對的立場但是立法權在國會國會通過了法院組織法三讀的修正我們從社會上面所聽到的聲音是人民鼓掌叫好這是一個高民意支持的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2557.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2582.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們給你們三個月的時間去做準備我們也給你們彈性的空間有一些特殊的案子不適合LiveDelay Live也沒有關係結果呢授權你們去訂執法訂出來變成什麼要宣誓裁判宣誓或公告以後才播出網路上面罵成一片 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2585.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2606.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
說我們的司法院在搞什麼法庭直播變成法庭錄影帶講這樣還客氣啊應該是紀錄片法庭直播變成法庭紀錄片立法者當初立法的意旨司法院很清楚但你們在制定這個辦法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2608.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2622.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
全在我司法院手上我就是要這樣訂啊沒關係我現在具體的問題法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法請問這個辦法有沒有在司法院會議通過這個辦法沒有在那個院會通過好那這個辦法是誰決定要寫成這個樣子的院長嗎代理院長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2639.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2664.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
司法院有關於政策形成有一定的這不是政策形成這個是依照法律授權給你們所訂定的辦法現在我非常的好奇啊司法院裡面授權給你們訂定的辦法是透過什麼樣的程序形成的因為如果在行政院行政院有一定的作業程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2665.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2689.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
司法院我看了半天我知道沒有經過司法院會議但我認為這是非常重要的事情應該要經過司法院會議我把你們重要決議事項看完了以後就沒有這一項我開始進一步思考當立法者授權司法院去定辦法的時候請問司法院是誰在定辦法我為什麼要講這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2690.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2718.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這不是司法審判事務喔這不是個案裁判喔這沒有涉及到什麼審判核心的問題喔它涉及到的是立法院通過的法律授權司法院去定辦法司法院膽子好大敢踐踏立法者三讀通過的法律定出這種挖空法律的辦法因此接下來就有政治責任的追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2720.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2743.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我一定會追究這件事情的政治責任要追究政治責任我最起碼要知道這個辦法是誰定的嘛所以是代理院長決定這樣定的嗎經過什麼樣的決策程序讓司法院去公告了這樣子的辦法請說明幾個兩三個官員躲在辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2744.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2770.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我好討厭法庭直播啊怎麼可以法庭直播我們司法院反對國會太傲慢了不顧司法院的反對 三讀通過沒關係我們在辦法裡面上下其手動手腳掏空國會三讀通過的法律意旨權力在我們手上國會拿我們沒皮條啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2772.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2796.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個法制作業程序不用講細節的作業程序我要知道的是決策程序由誰送給誰誰決定這樣訂的來請說明那個報告委員齁那個說掏空這個程序這我們沒有關係啦我現在是問你們這個辦法怎麼訂出來的是不是掏空你自己去看網路上面的討論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2798.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2822.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
你自己去看台灣人民的反應啊如果沒有這樣的事我這樣講我在國會IVOD全程直播我黃國昌受到譴責所有的人都聲援你們司法院說司法院訂得好啊這個辦法訂得太漂亮了我們大家都支持啊在野黨立委無理取鬧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2823.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2851.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
受到民意檢驗在責任政治下面要承擔後果的人是我但是我們現在要知道司法院誰該為這件事情承擔後果我問的是這個辦法公告以前請問是由誰決定的由謝明陽決定的嗎司法院相關的那個執法就是都不會是一個人決定的對 所以哪些人參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2853.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2878.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
會先有那個幕僚廳先做初步的那個司法行政廳嘛然後之後是相關的那個業務廳大家一起那個開會所以就是各個廳的廳長嘛就是會業務廳好會完業務廳以後呢然後之後在那個上層那個網上網上那個報對報給誰報給你嘛報給我然後在然後你看了以後也覺得很滿意嘛所以你在網上報給代理院長是嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2880.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2889.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好主席站起來了主席站起來了今天司法院訂這樣子的辦法我們絕對不接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2892.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2917.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我再講一次這不涉及到個案審判這不是審判核心事項這是依照立法院的授權請司法院去定的辦法定出這樣子的辦法有多少立委會覺得說沒有掏空當初三讀通過的法律我不知道但我個人這樣認為台灣民眾黨立法院黨團這樣認為這件事情責任的追究我們會嚴肅的追究第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2918.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2922.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我也公開講一定反映在今年的預算審查之上好 謝謝黃國昌委員不過剛剛聽了黃委員對於司法院的行政作業程序我在這邊要提醒依照政府資訊公開法第七條的規定你們的施政計畫會議記錄這些都要公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2941.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2957.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
今天我聽了黃國昌委員的質詢也讓我感到非常驚訝這個大連一般的小學然後大學各個系所所有的會議紀錄都要公開可是為什麼司法院的會議紀錄沒有公開這麼重要的施政紀要施政綱要 施政計畫也沒有公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2958.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2978.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個是很不對的一個做法那我希望秘書長回去之後要立刻把這些重要政府資訊公開法裡面所要求的這些資訊都要公開好不好我想就是人民要親近司法要了解司法這可以做到吧這應該不需要等到什麼幾個月之後應該很快就可以做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2981.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2989.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
你們在研議辦理的話就是違法了OK 好 那就小心請回那接下來我們請羅志強委員發言有請王副秘書長好 有請秘書長委員早安副秘書長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3011.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3038.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我剛剛聽妳的報告裡面 妳也特別強調憲法第八號判決嘛 對不對要搭配所謂的調高死刑門檻我們司法院的相應的作為嘛 對不對我想要請教妳喔 妳有聽過2022年的台版柬埔案嗎台版柬埔災案有聽過嗎我想請教祖賢蘭道這些人他總共關押綁架了多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3040 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3066.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
报告委员那个案情我没有详细研究61个人是61个人副秘书长我想请教就您在这个司法界这么多年的实务经验您有没有看到哪一个案子可以绑架61个人的这个算是那个案情严重的案件应该从来没有过吧被绑被关最多人的一个刑事案件至少在你职业生涯里面应该没见过吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3067.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3095.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那你知道裡面多少人被他們殺掉死了多少人死了多少人你知道嗎我告訴你剛開始以為死三個人啦他們這些人被收身搶劫塞上毛巾上手銬腳綁束帶關進三平大的房間毒打電擊未讀一人跳樓輕生一人休克死亡一人被未讀致死死了三個人嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3097.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3125.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我告訴你不只今年8月發現還有一個也被他們打死只是抓進去沒幾分鐘就被打死了 拖出去了丟了今年8月才找到到底是不是關61個人你知道嗎可能不是耶是不是殺4個人你知道嗎可能不是耶可不可惡 惡行重不重大請問副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3129.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3154.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
惨绝人寰惨绝人寰来我想请教一下那你知道最后被判什么祖贤被判什么刑依这上面那个记录那个祖贤王玉洁是26年那其他那个三人是无期徒刑是啊我直接告诉傅秘书长 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3159.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3183.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
關61個殺死4個人極盡虐待虐殺就是無期徒刑我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑你剛都講了你也沒聽過關61個人這麼嚴重的事情過不罰所得多少錢你知道嗎查出來的沒查出來不講4億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3188.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3209.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
關61個 殺4個人不罰所得4億元結果是無期徒刑啊我在上一個質詢我們的法務部長他還跟我講台灣沒有實質廢死啊是啦 還是有判死刑的啦還是有判死刑的啦但是你知道判死刑的比例變高還變低請問副秘書長變高還變低應該很清楚吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3217.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3235.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
沒關係 我告訴你 我跟你講過去20年 平均150位殺人犯大概判死刑的比例大概是2%2000年到2015年平均每年有3.25位三審判死到2015年2016年民進黨執政之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3244.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3270.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你知道平均有多少人三審判死嗎每年多少人三審判死嗎平均0.33人0.33人每年三審判死人數減少九成而且抱歉大法官的憲判八號出來之後一個都沒有三審的一個都沒有沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3272.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3291.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
可能還有訴訟時間 因為才去年的事情嘛 對不對我直接跟你講會更低 比0.33還低 你相不相信因為大法官已經加了八道經索大幅提高判處死刑的門檻這不叫實質廢死 什麼叫實質廢死這就是實質廢死 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3297.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3325.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這就是今天司法院交出來的最偉大的成績單大法院交出最偉大的成績單實質廢死我對那台版柬埔寨在案我看了就是看一次痛心一次我尤其記得印象很深刻裡面的那位母親她在被虐殺之前臨死之前的遺言是請她同樣被關的受害人說她可能沒辦法活著出去如果她能活著出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3326.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3329.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
拜託他告訴他兒子媽媽對不起你沒辦法陪你到最後你聽了心不心酸然後被後來獲救這幾十個人他們被受訪的時候他們說他們真的以為他們沒辦法活著走出來要不是被破獲可能全部要死在裡面無期徒刑沒有一個判死 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3358.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3386.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
現在民進黨還跟我們拗沒有實質Face這不叫實質Face請問什麼叫實質Face我再請教副秘書長詐騙手法不斷翻新已經變成我們今天國恥了也是全民最大的威脅沒錯吧副秘書長詐欺案件確實一直在成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3388.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3406.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
很多人甚至家庭失和甚至自責輕生還有一個就是我剛前面講的還有被抓起來凌虐打死的都有現在台灣最大的一個安全的威脅就是詐騙集團那麼我們政府在2014年定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3414.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3420.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
339條知事的加重詐欺罪科署1年到7年有期徒刑並科100萬元以下罰金而且處罰未稅犯 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3423.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3449.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
然後2023年在修正刑法的部分條文然後將身為詐騙也納入所謂的加重詐欺罪那2024年完成立法的詐欺犯罪危害防治條例也加重刑責對詐騙集團最重可判處12年有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金立法院是通過修法希望加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3451.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3468.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
罪行來抑制詐騙的橫行那檢察官起訴時也多半有考量加重刑事的室友給予適當的量刑但是我想請教一下刑法修正後這麼多刑法修正後我們的法院對詐騙集團的判刑有加重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3469.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3485.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那個報委員我們現在那個手上那個數字這個確實法院就加重詐欺的量刑有加重那個趨勢從那個判超過我問一個判達三年以上的比例大概多少三年以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3487.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3505.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我告诉你各级法院2019到2024年对于适用加重诈欺罪的80万罪次判决中三年以上有期徒刑者是1637罪次占总件数的千分之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3507.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3527.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
全台一年詐騙財損超過千億但是只有零點二 千分之二千分之二 一千個詐騙犯中可能只有兩個被判刑超過三年我們審計部報告就指出雖然政府加重修法 加重詐騙刑度 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3528.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3537.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那麼外界一直在對於法院判刑過低的問題有一些很大的疑慮那我想請教今天司法院怎麼去看這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3539.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3565.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
報告委員就是說我們從數字上來看的話就是這幾年確實那個量刑已經有加重的趨勢了那從那個數字上就是為什麼呈現這麼低當然就是說因為他會起訴的詐欺他是一個大集團那大部分被抓到的事實上都是在階層分工中比較低階的就是像這種車手就是比較低階的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3565.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3581.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我要这样讲实际上2019到2023年8月间台湾有超过58000名通缉犯未归案有8000多人有出境记录还有1637人是涉及诈骗案件潜逃国外 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3582.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3611.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那為了要補這個治安漏洞跟防止詐欺犯的潛逃我在去年就提出了刑法跟刑事訴訟法的修正案來徵定棄保潛逃罪以及賦予法院可以主動通知主管機關協助註銷被告護照旅行文件那另外刑法的徵定的這個棄保潛逃罪在今年5月三讀通過那刑事訴訟法的162條之二的修正也在上週五完成了三讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3612.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3638.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那这两项实际上都是今天立法院努力想要去防堵诈骗的一个努力的过程跟结果但我这边还是要拜托为什么今天从台版柬埔寨案开始讲起因为真的法院当然秘书长你是行政幕僚法官你也管不了可是今天全台湾人民对于诈骗那种所谓的痛恨的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3639.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3663.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我真的在這邊呼籲我們的法官們好好去想一想我們在台灣很多的一些不管是司法跟所謂的我們的一些刑事的一個法律都是過度保障加害人那造成被害人惶惶不可終日好好安居樂業都不可得這是我給司法院的一個期許以上 謝謝謝謝指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3666.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3671.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
好謝謝羅委員那麼我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言麻煩那個司法院好有請王復祕 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3689.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3703.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
複密早安我今天主要提的東西大概兩個區塊第一個區塊當然是有關抗告的部分我想我現在講一個就是我們目前已審到法案之後有一個無限抗告的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3706.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3721.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
今天檢察官我先請教蜂蜜一個最基本的一個問題檢察官案子起訴已審到法院之後那對於可不可以申請羈押起訴已審到法院以後檢察官可不可以申請羈押我們目前看法是認為請說是不可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3731.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3749.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
從結論上來說我想96台抗593已經寫得非常清楚就是檢察官起訴到法院之後其實他是不可能申請羈押但是現在實務上面一個很荒謬的事情就是他不可以申請羈押但是他卻可以抗告這是一個目前實務上的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3750.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3772.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我講這幾天就是法官論壇裡面這幾人也都吵起來了就提到就是檢察官起訴之後到底可不可以再讓檢察官對於法官要不要押人這個事情一直不停的抗告當然我們現在看到實務上面確實有一個案子就是法官在檢察官已經審到法院之後法官想要押人但檢察官不停的抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3774.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3790.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
这个东西在论坛论坛还有人特别写提醒其他的法官同事不应厌恶这个人而判刑狱就是白话文说啦你不可以因为你讨厌这个人然后你就对他加以判刑这个逻辑是对的吧 傅敏是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3792.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3807.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
但是目前我們看到一個狀況就是說檢察官起訴到法院以後照理說卷證人都已審到法院去了但是對於法官 陳真法官到底要不要押人檢察官卻可以有無限的不同的意見我們都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3809.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3838.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我们羁押主要在法院审理的时候分两大类第一个是我们案子送到检察官侦查的时候的申请羁押第二种是已审到法官之后法官要不要押当然这两个状况法官会下裁定那第一种的话因为是在侦查中基本上我以前申请那个羁押如果万一有遇到我几乎很少遇到法官会不裁押但是如果法官不裁押我一定跟他抗告到底因为这个案子是我们在侦查中 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3838.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3866.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
可是我起訴以後到法院法官押不押我從來不會有意見但是我如果認為法官應該繼續押我一定會在我的起訴書或者是起訴的時候或者是卷證資料裡面把理由詳列得非常的清楚可以建議法官押但是如果法官不押我從來沒有為這個事情抗告過因為我很清楚以審到法院應該就是法官的權限那這時候怎麼會讓檢察官去干涉 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3867.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3895.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
法官要不要繼續押人但是現行的制度會有這個問題就是好像檢察官如果覺得法官不該押而該押結果法官沒押他就不停的抗告那當然我以前也有遇過一個就是起訴之後但是這個人他另案還有涉嫌案子所以我們是用另案去申請羈押而不是就原本起訴的那個案子去抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3896.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3925.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為我覺得現在不是那個包青天時代真審其實是分離的我們還是要尊重法院的審理所以到院方之後應該是由法官來處理好 那我現在請教你一個問題就是法官他是不是要立一個中立的公平的法院來審判所以審判的時候必須依據的是證據請問一下他依據的是證據還是依據外來的壓力或政治的顏色 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3926.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3944.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我當然是依審判所呈現的這些證據 事證是 我也百分之百支持這個論點那法官是獨立審判還是接續檢察官的偵查法官在審判中有他的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3945.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3962.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
对 但是不是接续侦查不是帮检察官插屁股 对不对他是依据他的独立审判的时候认为如果他认为有必要查他会自己依据自己的想法去查而不是接力检察官的侦查作为夫妻这样对不对 是好 那我请问一下那现在 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3966.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3992.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
貴院對於檢方起訴疑審到法院之後可以一直不停的抗告請問一下貴院對這個抗告的這個權利你們認為有沒有存在的必要委員所說的只有包含兩個一個就是說檢 疑審之後法院所做的那個裁定檢察官還能不能抗告第二個是說可不可以無限抗告OK 沒關係這兩個你都回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3993.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4015.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
有關於可不可以抗告因為依照我們目前審判的結構就是檢察官跟被告跟辯護人他們都還是當事人所以說他們可以就法院所做的裁定提起抗告這一點我想在我們現行法體制上是這樣子第二個至於說在檢察官他如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4017.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4035.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
法院做裁定之後被撤銷之後然後再重新做裁定檢察官可不可以不限次做抗告我想這個政策上是可以討論的就是說像這種程序中的事項要不要及早讓他確定那就是限制不管是檢察官有可能是其他另一兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4036.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4061.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
的這個抗告權我想這都是可以討論的那我簡單的講就是說我自己主張修法我想就這個部分要加以修法就是審判中檢察官不得再對羈押法院的那個羈押或交保的裁定去提抗告那因為我還是認為真審要分離這第一個第二個我希望回到法官獨立審判如果案子在偵查中我絕對支持檢察官對於法官的裁定能夠加以抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4062.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4088.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
但是如果已經疑審到法院的時候我個人認為說這時候應該是要由法官他自己去承擔所有的責任那檢察官在做的他是提醒法官嘛我資料 我資料給你我甚至可以去力挺你有什麼問題我都可以跟你講或者是我在捐贈資料那邊寫清楚建議繼續羈押的理由把它羅列清楚但是當我們羅列完畢之後應該是尊重法官的獨立審判權那我不知道目前司法院支不支持我這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4090.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4098.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
有關於限制檢察官完全的抗告權這個部分我想是可以再研議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4099.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4120.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
你目前認為在研議是因為我最近看到一個董保誠老師他也是寫了一篇文章也是提到說他也是想法也是跟我現在目前的想法是類似的他覺得說已審到法院之後其實不應該再給檢察官就看到了權限那當然我們從比較法的概念你也可以請貴院稍微參考一下其他國家是怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4121.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4145.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
好不好 這個部分你們可以做到嗎可以 演繹的部分可以就像我們剛剛講到的那個法官論壇上面寫的那些東西其實你不能因為你討厭這個人你應該就要給他刑罰而且法官其實他應該把時間花在獨立審判上面而不是花在這個永無限制來來回回一下高院一下地院等等的這些問題上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4147.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4171.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
還有一個我覺得也是要讓國人知道的重點是檢察官在偵查中申請羈押那個裁定的法官是輪值的法官但是他起訴一審到法院通常就是由陳審的法官這兩個東西不一樣在偵查中申請羈押的下裁定的法官他是輪值的他不是將來這個案子的決定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4171.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4186.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
他不是通常是那个强制处分庭专庭的法官对 就是由他们来处理而不是未来实体审理的法官但是以审的状况就不一样以审的状况就会有 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4187.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4212.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那个审理的那个法官所以当我一审到法院去之后裁羁押与否是由承办的法官自己来做的时候其实那个是他的案子那个跟我们在侦查中申请羁押强制处分庭或者是轮值法官由他们来裁定羁押与否完全不一样因为一个人是在对将来他人的案子不一定会轮分到他嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4212.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4238.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
对他人的案子来决定要不要押另外一个是对自己的案子来决定要不要押所以这两个东西在墙路上面我认为不能混为一谈复密这个部分也可以麻烦您了解那那个行政厅厅长你一定懂我在讲什么这个部分也要麻烦您能够跟司法院这么说因为我还是觉得司法院很常讲我们要尊重个案我们要尊重法官的独立审判权 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4238.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4261.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
但是今天 陳審的法官想要放掉這個人卻因為檢察官不停的來回來回來回這樣子的抗告那這不就剝奪了他自己獨立審判的這個權利嗎所以我今天在做的並不是站對於被告或站對在檢察官那兒而是我要維護一個獨立審判的權限我們不能讓說一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4262.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4291.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
檢察官會怎麼樣因為為什麼偵審要分離我覺得這個道理很簡單因為我以前在偵查的時候我那個心思的投入會讓我非常痛恨這個被告所以我們今天在判決的時候交給一個公正的第三人去判我想這個是現代司法制度偵審分離概念的原因早期包青天時代我自己偵查自己判所以每一個被告來我偵查完之後我都超級痛恨他但是檢方容易流於過度情緒投入到那個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4291.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4318.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
會對被告非常的討厭那這時候在對被告上面可能沒有辦法再立一個很公正的立場這也是為什麼現在全世界的司法制度幾乎都走向偵審分離所以今天竟然是偵審分離的這個制度之下是不是我們起訴之後就是交給法官去獨立審判而不是起訴之後還讓檢察官有不停的抗告不停的抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4319.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4327.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這部分是不是請司法院這裡能夠好好的你們可不可以研議一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4328.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4348.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
是可以演繹這一部分我們會演繹那但是就是說這個論點可能同時也要考量到就是現在的審判結構是兩邊當事人的那我們限制檢察官的抗告權那對於被告他是不是如果說是他被裁定羈押的話他能不能抗告就是說你只限制一方 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4350.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4363.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
会有这样子的那个问题那所以我想我们这些整个问题我们都一起研议就所以你们要来研议我今天应该我今天这么说我提我的修法有我的法律上面理论依据那你提的有你的理论依据对不对 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4364.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4391.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
檢察官是代表國家行使刑罰權這個我們都很能夠理解但是這個東西羈押它畢竟它不等同於被告有罪所以我們對於羈押的人身自由的保障應該是最高因為很多案子羈押過到最後是判無罪那你無罪推定的概念之下我前面我既然說要求什麼東西要武器平等其實我跟你講當事人跟檢察官什麼時候武器平等過 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4392.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4406.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
如果你今天你要跟我講說是武器平等兩個人都在那裡都是當事人所以他們兩個武器要平等那我只能在那邊跟你說我們都是司法體系出來的檢方手上的武器跟當事人手上的武器有平等過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4407.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4436.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我只问这个问题有平等过吗所以当这个状况下本来司法系统就要去横评对于当事人的保护以及对于那个贾官事实发现的这个保障这两个东西横评之下所以我刚刚有讲如果可以的话检察官应该在起诉的那个时间点罗列清楚建议法官继续羁押的条件都在里面写得清清楚楚的甚至说我要去力挺都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4437.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4455.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
譬如說法官的羈押庭是不是可以傳喚檢察官來立庭然後當檢察官絕盡所能的告訴法官該押的理由以及當庭告訴法官該押的理由之後羈押與否的決定最終決定權應該是要尊重審審的那位法官我覺得這才是司法獨立是 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4457.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4484.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
武器從來沒有平等過檢察官可以動用所有的公部門的資源以及調閱所有的資料你我都清楚除了國安的資料檢察官比較不好調閱之外所有的資料都調得到但當事人沒有辦法尤其當事人很多時候被逼著要自證自己無罪這跟我國制度完全不符我國制度是無罪推定但是現在的制度幾乎是走向當事人要自證無罪媒體怎麼修理他的所以再麻煩治療院能夠研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4486.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4514.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
大概多久內可以給我最後是多久可以給我一個你們研議的結果三個月因為還要開諮詢會可能就是我們希望有多一些的那個意見加入我可以等你們我可以更完善我可以要求更嚴謹更完善三個月好那麻煩三個月內能夠把你們的那個研究結果給我一份好 謝謝 謝謝兩位好 那麻煩司法院依照委員的指示辦理好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4524.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4532.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言好 複密主席好 有請複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4535.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4557.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
傅敏 我之前其實跟黃委員一樣我們其實都拜讀了你們這次所提的司法院的立法計畫報告坦白說真的是內容挺空洞的我們只看到你們的標題但是根本看不出來你們實際上提了什麼樣的修法的內容我想這也是大家很關心的也是立法委員們很關心的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4558.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4584.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你们只有列了法案名称然后大致上的重点但实际上的条文的情况怎么样其实真的不知道而本期在这里很关心的议题就是你们现在为了配合因应大法官宪判之八号所提出的法院组织法第105条的修正草案内容你们到底修了什么你们的内容是什么可不可以把你们现在草案的条文很快的念一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4588.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4604.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個條文那個內容主要是那個一憲判八的那個意志就是在105條第一項就是原則上評議是過半數的意見決定之但是死刑的科處是全因全體一致決定時的為之也就是死刑的一致決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4605.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4625.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
第105條的第一項的後半段裡面加上但書的內容那是不是以後你們的立法計畫都可以把你們已經提出去的這個草案至少你都是院會通過了嘛你院會通過你都要還請立法院你當然要把相關的條文內容都要秀出來這樣方便我們立法委員們我們才可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4626.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4640.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好不好不然我們都在那邊猜測說你們到底是怎麼修的那現在我本身要請教就是說因為呢這個接下來這種重要的死刑案件可能也都會交由國民法官處理那你們國民法官法有要配合一起修嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4645.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4664.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們國民法官法原則上不修因為在現判的判決意旨裡面已經把國民法官案件什麼狀況之下可以判死刑的情形已經講得很清楚它還是屬於三分之二的多數決但是它屬於特別多數決其中有三個職業法官必須一致決這在現判理由已經說得很清楚但是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4666.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4685.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
宪判這裡面是講何義廷法官何義廷法官那麼國民法官的法庭他又不是何義廷他的何義廷是包含國民法官那法官他並不是只是指他那三個小group叫做何義廷我本席認為你的國民法官法如果說你們真的要配合宪判制8號的修正的話也應該要一定修這樣才比較清楚否則都是透過你們現在的解釋這是那個宪判判決裡面理由有特別寫到 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4694.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4709.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
在國民法官的死刑的科處的時候是一樣是三分之二的特別多數決但是其中要有三位職業法官要一致決那其他的國民法官六個國民法官同意就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4709.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4736.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那你們要不要就在上面寫說職業法官三個都要一致決對 如果說按照你們的邏輯的話憲判制8號理由書都寫你們何必修法都不用修法了 法院組織法也不用修啦對 本心認為說這個部分的話其實要更清楚對 當然就是說我是不贊成憲判制8號裡面的判決內容而且我認為憲法判決不見得會能夠拘束立法者的未來的提出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4737.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4757.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這個相關的立法的法案所以本期在這邊也會再提出我自己認為比較合理的法案好 那接下來我要進入到另外一個議題我們知道其實這次這個馬太安溪的洪災事件然後造成花蓮光復鄉的災情非常的慘重那麼看起來之後一定會有蠻多的災民會提起 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4760.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4783.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
这个国家赔偿或者是这个也会追究相关的失职的官员的刑事责任那么据本席看到新闻上面所报现在这花林地检署事实上他已经启动了相关的调查那么但是呢在这里本席要强调的想要请教的一件事情就是说因为司法院是法律辅助法的主管机关 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4784.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4792.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
今天是法福基金會沒有在那你們認為像這樣的情況之下法福基金會是不是應該要主動的去協助這些災民然後幫助他們提起訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4797.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4822.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好 謝謝委員垂詢我們可以在這裡做個說明我想那個法服就這個部分可以提供的那個作為有分兩個部分一個是諮詢還有一個是真正進入到那個輔助那那個諮詢的那個部分呢就我們了解法服現在已經完成了準備就是配合那個政府協助災民的計畫那可以提供那個法律諮詢那另外呢現在就是具體的在花蓮分會這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4824.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4849.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
現在只要災民的案件第一個時間都會把它優先排成排到優先的面對面的法律諮詢這是諮詢的部分第二個就是說在花蓮有很多原民本來就可以用原民專案來申請輔助此外 依照法覆規定像這種重大公益的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4849.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4877.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
他只要通過董事會專案通過之後就不受審查之力可以優先輔助謝謝複密的解釋確實在法輔基金會的第五條裡面他們所謂的五四六專案在第五條第四項第六款裡面針對重大公益社會矚目重大煩雜的事件可以提供專案的法律協助法律輔助那麼法輔基金會有沒有主動的積極的趕快去成立專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4878.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4906.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
有 他們現在那個董事會已經成立嗎 已經啟動了嗎還是只是個案的受理而已他們因為依這個規定他們要經過那個董事會那他們現在在盤點預算就是會那個盤點完之後會進入這法福基金會要趕快啟動相關的專案因為過去其實法福基金會不是說沒有其他的這個相關的專案那麼根據本席的這邊的整理大概也有七八個這個因為一二三四 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4907.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4935.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
七個專案是成立這法律輔助的專案那麼當然這中間有個反課綱的專案我也覺得很奇怪這之後我還會再請法輔基金會再提供相關的資料給本席參考那他們的成立時間基本上都非常短而且非常的積極那本席希望這次法輔基金會也要在這件事情上面趕快處理因為災民的這個受損他們的請求賠償的這件事情是不能夠等待的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4936.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4948.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
是的好 那接下來本席還要再繼續問的問題就是有關於國家賠償法因為看起來這次的花蓮災民應該是會提起國家賠償法但是我們知道其實現在國家賠償的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4951.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4974.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
是不清楚的它到底是屬於公法上的請求權還是民事上的請求權其實到現在為止在法院的實問見解是認為這可能是屬於公法請求權但是在它整個訴訟程序上面又是適用民事訴訟程序那麼這個部分來說的話不曉得司法院對這個國家賠償法的議題有沒有什麼看法有沒有認為說其實站在這個受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4977.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4995.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
民眾的角度應該要很清楚的未來把國家賠償訴訟就直接化為是行政訴訟這樣的話一方面也可以免除被害的或是受害的民眾他們要繳交高額的民事訴訟的裁判費委員這個部分容我請廳長來回覆好 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5002.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5021.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
委員好 關於委員剛才垂詢的問題可能要分幾個層次來說明可以大聲一點嗎是 要分幾個層次來說明第一個就是說確實在學理上面國家賠償訴訟它是有關公權力行使的損害賠償但是因為當初國家賠償法在立法當時我們行政法院當時全國只有一座 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5022.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5041.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以後來當時的歷史演進考量民眾司法禁用權所以就讓民事庭的法院來審理國家賠償訴訟那因為國家賠償法是法務部主管他當時所有的規定都是准用民法跟民事訴訟法所以目前就是由民事法院來審理國家賠償訴訟這是第一個層次的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5042.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5066.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那第二個層次就是說因為本席的時間有限確實國家賠償法其實從民國69年來制定到現在已經超過40年了中間雖然108年有做一些修正但是本席認為說這個涉及到人民的請求權它的訴訟的問題非常的重要那本席這邊也要求司法院應該要跟法務部這裡好好的就國家賠償訴訟程序的議題去 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5071.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5093.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
進行一個溝通協調而且要站在人民的訴訟權益保障的這樣的一個立場上面去做適當的修法我覺得這是很重要還有一位在這裡也看到國家賠償法的它的公法請求權的時效非常短如果說它適用在行政訴訟的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5095.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5115.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
依照行政程序法的規定公法上的請求權它的時效至少都還有10年可是如果說是依照國家賠償法的請求權的時效是兩年間不行使就會消滅如果自損害發生時期超過5年的話也是會消滅所以它等於說大幅縮短了人民的請求權 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5117.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5131.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
的這個期間那麼這個部分其實對於受損害的人民他所遭受到的心理上還有財產上面的這些這些不利益我覺得是影響很大所以這邊也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5132.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5161.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
司法院可以好好的去研析這個問題那麼能夠盡速的將國家賠償請求權它的定位以及它在訴訟上面應該要適用哪一個法律是最恰當的當然眼前看來現在行政法院在全國各地都有了至少就北中南都有這個行政法院那我想由行政法院來處理相關的問題應該也不是什麼大困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5161.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5188.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好不好這個部分的話是不是可以請複密跟法務部這邊可以積極的研析那本席希望可以在下個會期的立法計畫裡面看到你們研析的結果可以嗎這個可能因為組織機關在法務部那我們會跟他們溝通提出還有本席在這邊最後還要再詢問的一個議題就是你們這次的立法計畫裡面我們有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5189.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5204.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
司法院有一些法案提出來會嫌行政會嫌行政院譬如說你們第一個修《刑事訴訟法》17條26條134條之一的修正草案你們在去年就會嫌行政院行政院到現在是怎麼樣都沒處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5206.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5220.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個現在進度了我請廳長說明一下現在進度了目前在行政院會前當中那也開了多次的諮詢會對 你們去年就已經送了是對不對 一直送然後已經一年了一整年 行政院有開了很多次的諮詢會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5224.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5241.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們在會選中他們還在做部分的一些討論不是你們修法的速度真的太慢了提案修法速度太慢我們提案已經提到行政院去會選了所以行政院很慢如果說行政院速度緩慢然後拖累了司法院我覺得司法院要去抗議不要忘記你們是憲法的重要的權力機關怎麼可以去容忍行政院這麼怠惰他們該提的法案而且他只是會選你們是會選他 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5252.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5263.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那他應該要趕快積極的去處理他們也有開了好幾次政委也有組織了好幾次的會議那這個部分的話也請你們要趕快再去盯著行政院好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請王宏威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5278.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5282.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好 謝謝主席請向副秘書長委員早早 副秘書長早昨天有一個就是社會比較矚目的新聞就是很多位藝人他們涉及到就是去假造他的這個體檢的報告然後事實上是要逃兵所以做了閃兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5302.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5324.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那昨天相關的新聞畫面一直不停的播送那可以看到就是這些知名的藝人包含這個陳柏林大人哥或者是像修杰凱等等好幾位的藝人那都是上銬然後到案那麼這昨天好像是一共是四個藝人被拘提到案 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5325.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5343.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
但是在這邊要討論一下就是當然 逃兵就是違反相關的法律而且他們自己也承認他們確實是找人去修改 去假造他們的病歷但是這一波其實不是第一波去偵辦這些藝人的閃兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5351.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5374.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
大概過去幾個月來分播有不同的藝人當然可能有一些因為昨天這一波因為藝人的名氣比較大所以引起社會比較高的關注我在這邊提出來的畫面就是昨天這幾位藝人都是上銬具體檔案甚至傳出其中有一個修杰凱他是在家裡面還有小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5374.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5395.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那傳出說他是在家中上銬然後小孩都很害怕但是另外一方面我在上面提出來的這個新聞畫面也是今年5月間其實就有一波藝人也是同樣的是辦同樣的案子也是閃兵也是假 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5396.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5400.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
就是假造相關的體檢報告這裡面包含陳大天 陳玲九 還有李全這個畫面就可以看得出來當時他們沒有上銬有的就這樣子很輕我想也不是輕鬆 心裡不會輕鬆可是在畫面上就不會像昨天大家看到的畫面很狼狽 就故意用外套把它遮起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5421.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5425.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好 所以我想請教一下就是就我們在拘提相關的這個犯罪嫌疑人或者這個罪犯被告的相關的使用借據那當然這裡面有警察有檢察官當然有法院那我想請問一下副秘書長我們使用這個借據上銬到底有沒有一定的標準因為我在看這個同樣的一個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5450.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5459.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
也同樣是藝人那只是也許他的名氣大或名氣小不一樣那當然可能這個以警察來講要看現場的狀況他會不會抗拒或者他會不會傷害會不會攻擊警察但是看起來這幾波都沒有這樣的狀況所以我想請問副秘書長我們是否有曾經針對使用這個借據來逮捕拘提 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5476.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5480.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有沒有一個相關的一致性比較一致性的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5481.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5509.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那個首先向委員報告就是有關於這個使用借據的實施辦法它那個是由法務部所訂的對 我知道對 這是法務部所訂的那委員剛剛那個垂詢的那個相關案例都是在那個偵查那個階段就是在那個警察在那個逮捕那個人的時候的那個情況所以這個在你們法院也會使用借據啊以你們法院使用借據你們相關的標準是什麼呢法院部長有請處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5512.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5538.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
謝謝法院委員的詮詢有的法院使用借據也不能只有在法警的執行辦法裡面有要看當時的情形是否被告有沒有逃亡或是當時的狀況他可能有脫逃的情形是要來使用借據那原則上可是我現在看起來因為現在有很多一些知名案例在新聞影片上都播出來在法警的體檢的時候是一定要使用借據 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5539.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5560.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
因為他是從監所裡面提到所以你們現在在法院裡面法警的這個提審的時候提解的時候是一定使用借據的一定都要使用借據那在法院以內呢都是一定使用借據嗎對 什麼時候使用借據等他入庭之後要開始承受我們要把借據打開 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5562.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5576.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以在法院所以基本上在司法院裡面上不上考你們的標準是完全一致的嗎是一致的就是沒有例外沒有例外因為他是從看守所或者是監所裡面體檢出來的人犯我們一定上考 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5577.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5585.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
所以你們是完全沒有例外因為我覺得很多就是該辦的案子就去辦但是因為像這種是眾人矚目然後看到相關的就是畫面的時候那就有人提出為什麼同樣的案情那有人上銬有人沒有上銬我覺得這就是我們的這個執法的標準另外一件事這個當然也是法務部在修法但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5604.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5612.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
最近也得到很多社會大眾的相關的關切也就是違罪重罰我們最近有一些案例就是這個清潔員他把清潔隊隊員他把人家不要的電鍋轉送給一個老婦最後他就以貪污治罪條例來起訴他他現在正在跑法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5632.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5636.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那過去也有比如警察就是像交警的部分也是受到上層的壓力或上層的要求然後把一個罰單他可能用比較輕的讓他罰錢罰得少一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5648.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5670.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那錢都沒有拿到他自己的口袋他可能基於上層的人情的壓力那他本來就是比較重的但是他開罰單的時候他就開一個罰款金額比較少的然後因此也觸犯了貪污自罪條例然後工作通通沒有了所以這一連串的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5674.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5689.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
被現在社會大眾尤其是基層的公務體系開始大家討論說這樣就是我們的司法資源也非常非常的稀少那檢察官呢應該照理講他那個辦案那個什麼辦案的量很大才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5695.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5711.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
像这样违罪重罚的要不要符合相关的比例原则现在看到在网路上也开始有做相关的公民的提案这里面比如说什么0到5万应该减轻其刑或者免刑等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5712.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5726.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那我想請問一下司法院針對現在在社會上現在大家普遍在討論或關心的這個違罪重罰的狀況你們有沒有什麼樣的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5730.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5758.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
首先跟委員報告因為法官一定是依法獨立審判所以說我們一定要依據法律至於說相關的貪污自罪條例就是說它現行的規定是不是周延我想都有很多討論法務部在9月的時候所發的新聞稿因為貪污自罪條例的主責機關是法務部他們發了新聞稿又說針對小額的貪污案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5759.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5775.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
會去修這個貪污自罪那個條例來符合那個罪責那個相當所以法務部他們有在啟動這個部分的修法所以你們同意嗎我們贊同的你們也贊同就是也可以減輕在法院這一端對於這種非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5778.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5802.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這種小的案件搞不好也許法官也是有同情像這樣的案件但是他必須要去受理有一些因為只要像基層的公務員只要他碰到這些相關的他最後連工作都沒有了連退休金都沒有了像我剛剛講的除了這個這個企業隊員可能是最近觸動很多民眾討論最多的一個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5805.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5814.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那之前也有其實我也有收到陳情就是小小的基層這個基層的警察他就是因為開一個罰單上面有些就說就不要讓他罰那麼重啦就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5821.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5833.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
然後他就處罰了然後變成他連工作都沒有所以我覺得在執法者人在衙門好修行另外一個就是同樣的我們一直在討論的就是這個交保到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5838.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5860.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
就是要交保的話 交保金額到底是怎麼樣才是合理還有無保請回的 它的標準又是什麼而這樣子會不會成為一個犯罪的破口最近因為你們發生的 這個是監察院彈劾你們的法官針對中文制逃跑的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5861.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5890.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那另外其實我自己本身非常關心因為南京三民站就是我的選區那麼最近台鐵出現在台鐵就是驟目睽睽之下有女性被性侵了而且還是有個外籍旅客那與此同時呢在南京三民站晚上10點在台北市老講晚上10點不算太晚因為它就是去倒垃圾就是去倒垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5891.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5906.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
到垃圾的時候被一個街友在那邊脫褲子 漏鳥然後就抓他要到暗箱去就是準備要性侵好 這個案件竟然最後是被吳寶請回裁定吳寶請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5911.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5930.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個案子我真的就不懂了他採定無保請回之後我們的選區大家就緊張啦這個案子發生了然後你再請回他是不是又讓他放回到街頭會不會再有下一個受害人這種無保請回到底你們的標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5931.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5956.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
還有過去我們一直說打詐打詐這個用釣魚簡訊的打詐集團成員當然他是專門開車這樣的一個成員最後也無保請回這案子也無保請回我真的就覺得說這種所謂的無保請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5958.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5974.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
前一陣子發生的在土城直接殺了他的太太殺了他的這個小姨子也是一樣啊這個違反這個家暴令然後一樣無保請回所以我想請問一下有保無保保釋金到底是多少請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5982.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6005.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在法官 在你們法院這一端你們的標準是什麼好 我再舉一個例子這個傘兵 就昨天的傘兵也有50萬 50萬 35萬有不同的交保 我也不大懂這個不同 因為他們的案情都完全一模一樣你是以他的財力嗎還是以他的知名度嗎 我不懂有50萬 50萬 有35萬交保的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6008.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6025.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好 那館長陳之漢因為他在直播的時候說要斬首總統用15萬給他交保我就不懂這15萬你們到底橫著是什麼橫著他會不會跑掉 是嗎那會不會跑掉就是還是橫著他的財力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6026.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6050.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
像這些案子 我們在今年有很多政治性案件國民黨的台北市黨部主委黃禮錦如她偽造文書案 這個也是五年以下一千萬交保 那個散兵 那個罪行也不輕罪重她也可能到七年 或者是五年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6053.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6078.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
50萬 50萬 35萬交保所以我就不懂你們這個交保金額是以他犯罪情節的重大與否他的刑度還是以你認為他會不會跑掉還是以你可能認為他會跑掉但是你要橫著他的財力那在這邊我講到這些人你說他財力差很多嗎沒有差很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6080.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6102.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
而且有人講黃綠景如是貴婦可是演藝人員她也有一定的財力所以我的意思就是說你們的交不交保跟交保金額到底差距在哪裡以我來看都已經落鳥試圖性侵在大街上試圖性侵了你卻可以完全無保請回 沒事 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6103.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6125.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
涉及炸雞集團幫炸雞集團開車也一樣無保請回所以副秘書長我可不可以請問法院我們不是法律人但是我們都關心法律那我們看到不就是一般老百姓來看我不懂啊什麼樣案件你可以完全的無保請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6126.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6138.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那你可能讓他下一次下一次可能再犯而且這是我們最關心的婦女的安全或者詐欺你卻可以無保請回請問一下你們的標準到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6140.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6166.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
謝謝委員垂詢首先就委員關心南京三民那個案件因為我們真的不是陳審法官我們手上現在完全沒有那個卷證所以說這個案件就是第一個要看的是他涉及的罪名就是說他涉及的罪名到底現在依卷證所呈現的到底是一個公然猥褻還是有到性侵我們並不知道如果說是他涉及侵罪是三年以下的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6167.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6189.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那在刑訴113條他要那個只要那個當事人申請那個交保的時候呢這是那個有法律規定就是他並不是直接就會進入到那個羈押那所以就是說簡單來講就是委員所講的這一些那個你沒有羈押你也完全沒有交保就是你就放回去沒事了放回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6190.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6207.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以我知道你每個都講說因為我們不是成城法官但是我們看到這一個又一個案例而且這都是在我們身邊的我今天跟你討論的還不是一些政治性的案例政治性案例我看起來這個不交保金額我也看不出來你們的標準到底是什麼但是我現在更在意的這個南京三民站就是我選區嘛你就把它放掉了放掉大家就害怕了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6216.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6239.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
大家就害怕啊 所以我真的拜託我們都尊重法官司法獨立但是你們獨立成這樣啊獨立成司法沒有辦法保護良善的老百姓基本的婦女安全都沒有辦法保護這件連續發生的事情有人會覺得婦女在台北市安全嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6241.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6262.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
然後已經都已經可以 都已經進入司法還是可以這樣子直接這樣無保請回 直接放回街頭所以我要拜託 就是請我們司法院你們一直修這些法 老實說啊這些法 我老實講 我看起來不重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6264.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6282.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
因為你跟我們人民期待跟人民的財產跟人民的人身安全保障你們太遙遠了以前說恐龍法官到現在恐龍法官繼續存在如果這是你的太太如果這是你的女兒你會這樣子嗎對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6289.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6317.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我馬上好所以請你們回去人民所重視的希望司法對我們最基本的保護我覺得我們的法院要承擔起來好不好好謝謝王委員那司法院我想這中間的落差也請你們思考一下最重要是人民的一個對於司法還有法律的一個看法我想你們也可以作為一個參考好不好好謝謝那接下來我們就請審發會委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6336.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6339.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
主席我們請副秘書長我們請王副秘書長副秘書長早我想我們今天是針對我們司法院這個114年度的立法計畫我們來進行探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6355.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6379.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我看到我們今年司法院書面送來的這114年度的年度立法計畫裡面大概看起來就是五項立法計畫兩個有關法院組織法的一個少年事件處理法兩個有關刑事訴訟法的刑事訴訟法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6381.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6407.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個一個是針對這個112年宪判第九號這個是有關律師工作權的相關問題那我個人認為最值得討論而且是我認為這個今年的這個立法計畫裡面我認為最重要的一項就是有關刑事訴訟法的這個因應這個112年宪判之第八號這個有關強化被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6408.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6416.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
在這個程序地位的這個相關的刑事訴訟法修法這部分我想今天來跟副秘書長探討因為事實上這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6418.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6445.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個7月底其實之前我們副秘書長來的時候我也是就是針對這個有關被害人這個程序參與的這個問題來跟我們這個副秘書長就教那今天我在看到說我們這個114年度的這個立法計畫裡面有把它列入這個立法這個修法的計畫我個人是認為說這個是值得肯定而且我認為說這個是非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6448.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6450.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
事實上是有推動的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6452.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6477.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那這個其實我們我國的這個司法制度在這個被害人的訴訟參與的部分他就這整個嚴格大概基本上我的印象中應該是我們是在1997年1997年我們徵定才徵定這個刑事訴訟法第271條第二項那時候開始才有訴訟才有這個被害人才訴訟參與才開始立法那再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6479.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6496.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
做了第一次修 第一次是在2003年我們有增訂了271條之一最主要是開放這個代理人 代理人可以這個被害人的代理人可以參與 可以在審判中陳述意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6499.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6522.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
最重要的修法是5年前109年2020年我們整個修法整個新增了被害人訴訟參與制度這整個專章可以說把我們因為事實上被害人參與訴訟的部分確實在學理上面是有相當的 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6524.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6539.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
相當的張力這個部分有因為他必須要衡量衡著這個被害人的這個情感意見但是也要避免這個情緒性的量刑或者是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6541.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6556.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
有他的這個因為被害人陳述而造成這個重複這個重複的評價這個部分我覺得所以這個制度上的設計在其實在各國立法力上面都在這兩個方面在做做橫評 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6559.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6574.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我看我們就目前的限制來講我們的被害人參與大概有幾個部分一個部分是調查證據的部分調查證據的部分是被害人有參與的機會再來就是有關被害人情感的意見陳述 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6575.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6601.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那最後是在辯論科型的意見陳述大概可以說就證據 感情陳述 科型範圍被害人可以表達意見但是這整個這次我們再修法的重點因為過去事實上是這樣的制度在109年的修法大概大致上建立了那這次的修法重點是不是副民長你再簡單講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6603.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6629.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
委員我請廳長來說明好嗎委員好我們這次修法就是要在參與訴訟這邊讓被告被害人可以直接去詢問被告甚至他表達他的情感因為這次被告的行為導致他有什麼樣的損害可能他相關的情緒上或是情感上受到什麼樣的情緒上的反應那時候家庭或是他的家庭或是生活受到什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6630.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6644.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
也就是說過去基本上這個被害人參與他基本上是審判長他是不是給予他這個被害人陳述的機會但是現在我們修法之後變成我們這個訴訟參與人跟這個代理人他可以這個請求就 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6650.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6673.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
其實你們就你們的修法他就這個在這個科型資料查詢的調查中他可以提出他的被影響的陳述他也可以就科型的範圍事項他可以直接他可以主動詢問被告對不對這個請他可以請求詢問被告請求詢問被告大概是這一次的修法重點那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6676.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6693.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個我在看這個在立法旅遊裡面你們也把這個就我剛剛所講的這個這個被害人參與跟這個整個這個審判的這個這個橫評你們也做了一個考量那這個我整個在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6695.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6717.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個制度大概到目前我們在這次我們看到的你們提出的這個立法計畫之前的制度就是現行的這個制度大概目前法界大家學界最探討的一個部分就是說我們現在這個制度雖然我們都有明定說被害人在什麼樣程序之下他可以參與但是事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6718.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6733.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他所做的這個陳述他的訴訟地位他做這個陳述的內容他在整個訴訟地位裡面事實上是沒有明確的對不對目前的我們的立法這個包括就是說我被害人去陳述這個陳述他是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6734.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6752.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
是不是必須載明或者說你必須在他在整個這個審判地位當中他的這個訴訟地位這個是不明確的那這個有關他的你如果說違反這個在這個違反的效果啦救濟的程序這些也都沒有目前啦 目前都是沒有的啦那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6753.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6781.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我在七月的時候做的這個質詢我那時候有要求你們書面的答覆那時候就是說我希望你們能夠就因為這個被害人參與訴訟程序實施五年了嘛那這五年來我請你們做一些統計就有關被害人這個在所有的這個審判過程中有參酌被害人這個意見陳述的部分大概有請你們做一個統計我在七月 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6782.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6805.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我在7月30號這個的質詢裡面提出來那你們在8月8月中8月15的時候給我一個回函了回函就是說你們針對這個這個有關這類陳述你們的這個統計數字這個近三年來我國法院判決中採用被害人影響陳述案件的統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6807.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6832.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這我就針對你們這8月5號的這個回函我就來做再做進一步的詢問我看你們這個統計統計出來的意見近三年這個其實看起來就數據上面看起來差距是非常非常大你在彰化這個彰化地方法院有參酌被害人意見有被害人意見就跟被害人影響陳述的有209件209件 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6836.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6861.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那澎湖連江都只有一件那澎湖連江那訴訟案件比較少那你台北士林地方法院只有六件新北地方法院六件那彰化地方法院209件這個差距是非常非常大那這個部分你們有什麼樣的看法這樣子的差距的懸殊你有什麼樣的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6863.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6882.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
跟委員報告一下這個來自於說裁判書書寫的方式的問題因為我們是透過裁判書的一個關鍵字去做搜尋的這個就是我要問的所以這個統計數據我們很老實的講不是非常沒辦法全面性的表達這個裁判書的全貌這就是我今天要質詢的重點就是說我看你們這個統計書這麼懸殊那我當然會想說為什麼這麼懸殊就一問 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6892.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6916.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
你們就是用關鍵字搜尋了所以關鍵字簡單講就是審判書裡面有提到說被害人他陳述的意見你們就把它列為有他如果審判書裡面沒有寫他審判書裡面沒有寫有可能他在審判過程中是被害人是有參與的只是他沒有被呈現在審判書上面對不對所以你們用這種類似像Google這種方式的Google打進關鍵字審發會出來多少筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6919.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6945.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
大概就是多少筆你們就是用這個方式這個統計數是這樣來的你們輸入被害人意見或者被害人影響陳述這幾個關鍵字然後收集出來所以彰化地方法院有209件你士林地方法院才6件近三年 三年裡面才6件這個差距是非常懸殊這樣子的統計方法當然不精確剛剛聽到有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6947.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6953.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
但是那怎么办我们就以后还是我再过一年我再问你说那去年的状况怎么样你还是用关键字搜寻吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6954.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6978.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我們可能要思考由裁判書製作的法官來特別去填寫說他有沒有採取被害人影響陳述把他的相關意見表達有沒有這樣的機制我現在就是要問現在這個機制還沒有建立也許我們可以從這邊來開始我現在要問的就是你們要不要建立這樣的機制就是說因為我們現在我們也在修法進度上面我們也在修法我們希望再強化被害人的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6979.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6995.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
但是在過去已經十四五年的裡面我們究竟被人參與的過程在我們我國司法審判過程中到底他的成效如何他所扮演的他在這個對審判過程審判結果的影響這些我們完全都 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6997.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7024.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
一無所知這個機制我們會來建立但當修法之後我們更需要來評估這個修法之後的相關影響的結果我想不管有沒有修法不是等修法後再建立這個修法現在還在行政院會賢當中我現在是我們現在就已經在實施被害人參與的制度所以我認為說你們這個你全部都現在這種統計方法當然是很不精準說難聽一點有點可笑這是關鍵字的搜尋 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7025.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7035.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
你這個應該就是應該要建立一個甚至應該要有一套追蹤的機制而且我個人認為應該要有專責的單位你們現在這個單位是有哪個單位在負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7039.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7046.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們目前是由統計處來負責相關資料的收集但是現在的時候這個資料統計 我的意思是說針對被害人參與的他在審判過程中扮演的狀況這是由哪一個單位來目前是沒有專責機關沒有專責機關其實我們回去再研議鑑定這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7062.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7078.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我認為這個部分希望你們能夠提一個書面意見給我好不好除了這個以外我最後一點點時間就是說一樣是這個有關被害人保護的訴訟參與制度事實上學界現在有很多的針對這個我們現在第455條455之39條 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7084.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7104.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你們裡面有關於說申請這個訴訟參與因於每個審計都要向法院提出申請訴狀這樣子的過程這樣子的程序規定使得使得有很多判決他在不同的審計裡面他就認為說他的這個程度進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7104.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7131.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他審判程度進行了以深所以就拒絕了再讓被害人來做這個意見陳述這個是相當多的我這邊所列出的這些判例都可知參考我們是不是能夠考慮就這個申請的程序我們放寬這個時間10點就是說你可能在偵查中你申請你有申請要表示意見之後你這個申請是一直有效一直到審判的最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7132.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7156.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
而不是說每一個審局你都必須要重新申請每一個審局重新申請之後造成不同的審期的時候我就以之前已經進行過為理由把你拒絕這部分我希望說就放寬這個10點跟他的申請效力的延續這部分也請你們提出可行性的意見 書面意見 好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7162.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7167.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好謝謝沈委員那接下來我們請王逸川委員發言好謝謝主席我們請王副秘書長有請王副秘委員早好剛剛有委員質詢有些東西你可能來不及講現在讓你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7190.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7203.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你們那個司法院什麼開會的紀錄啊這個公開不公開這件事情在司法院裡頭的規定是什麼等一下我們請廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7209.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7232.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
跟委員報告其實是依照政府資訊公開法的規定那政府資訊應該要公開的應該是有關政府機關的部分應該是指合議制的機構的會議記錄應該要公開所以因為司法院本身它認為並不是一個合議制的機構所以在依照政府資訊公開法規定它並沒有一定要公開的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7233.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7257.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
至於司法院已經有將這個院會的會議的決議公開在網頁上那這跟目前行政院院會的公開決議的做法是一致的這是可以補充說就是有決議的部分在公開就決議的事項有加以公開那至於在會議中個別的發言的部分目前是沒有好 所以你們有把握你們現在做法沒有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7265.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7290.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
有沒有把握啦是有把握啦好因為大家五院互相尊重啦這個大家就是司法院到立法院到底要報告什麼這個誰來報告這個大家都不管是規定或者約定俗成這個我們就繼續做第二個剛剛也提到說這個我們現在一般民眾也會認為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7291.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7318.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
奇怪 這個人可以交報 這個人要讓他回去這個人要收他這個人很可惡啊 為什麼讓他回家了這個人看起來就沒事啊 為什麼要把他羈壓為什麼這個人交保幾萬那個人交保為什麼幾萬站在司法院的角度 個別法官他們做這些裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7319.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7346.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
正在施法你們現在有什麼機制去討論說這個事情在這個法官界就是說他這個裁定怪怪就是有什麼樣的機制不管叫做補救 或者檢討 或者是什麼否則每次看到有人被生壓整個群眾都在等 看電視好像在開獎一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7348.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7374.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
人民對這件事 現在沒什麼反應就說大膽這樣 膽敢說 漂亮啦 職業啦好啦 沒問題啦 跟你說沒問題就是沒問題這個好像對司法的威信 大家都會有質疑站在你們司法院的角度你們有什麼樣的機制可以讓人民可以認為說好啦 反正你們就守一個規定法官都會照這樣來裁啦你們有什麼機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7377.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7394.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那個 謝謝委員那個 其實因為羈押有一定的那個要件那就是說 可是它很多事項呢就是說它還有涉及很多那個材料就是除了就是說罪名它會影響之外的話就是說它那些犯罪情節到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7395.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7412.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
重不重 或者說現有那個證據到底是什麼 那個法官除了這些之外他還要考量說每個被告他那個資歷也都不相同 那或者是說有些人就是說他跟國外的連結可能就比較多就是說也許小孩就在那個國外 國外就是有資產 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7413.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7442.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
可能會那個出去那所以就是說法院他要裁量那個事情實在是很多就是實在是沒有辦法就是說我們一看這個案件就像剛剛那個就是質詢的有關於那個南京這個案件漏鳥俠他到底要不要那個羈押就是連我們手上沒有看到這個那個證據我們也不清楚說他呈現的這些事實所涉及的罪名到底是重罪還是那個我知道這個我都懂就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7442.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7465.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那我想這個部分呢就是要跟民眾多溝通啊就是說它不是一個法律感情覺得一個人漏鳥了而是說就是要跟民眾多溝通說法院到底是依據什麼樣的那個事實然後來決定羈押跟不羈押 對是 站在司法院的角度啦就是 社會總是覺得好像好像荷白文啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7468.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7478.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
合白文就是說運氣好 運氣不好我為什麼這樣講呢就是常常很多包括律師在評論說這個人被生壓了看起來壓定了或者是說最後沒有壓讓他驕保了那大家想說應該進去什麼都說了啦大家會這樣講說既然就都說了就交報就都說了什麼都說出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7497.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7505.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
然後呢 看起來也不會逃亡啊所以我看 搞不好啦待個這一個電子的監控啊應該是沒什麼問題社會還是會覺得好像要靠運氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7511.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7536.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我知道你們的態度就是說法官你就要綜合很多的考量可是站在司法院的角度就這樣就說不然法官 個別法官或是合意之後決定說就讓他交保或是讓他羈押社會還是會覺得怪怪的你們世界各國都這樣都靠法官 法官說我把你騙了就是要把你騙了沒有你搞不好就要把你騙 叫你回去 叫你回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7537.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7543.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
然後我們的司法院就是說在行政上我們也不會去討論這件事情還是怎麼樣我在講的是一個機制或是你們都直接放給法官去用 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7552.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7578.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
當然就是說有關於那個有關於那個羈押就是他的要件跟他那個裁量事項就是我們平常就是做那個平常培訓的時候這個當然就都會跟那個法官多溝通那另外就是說現在其實有很多法院他都有那個強制處分庭那強制處分庭就是有關於這些羈押偵查中羈押這些那個申請呢他是集中 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7579.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7595.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
集中在幾個法官他們所做的那他們的標準就會比較趨於一致譬如說像申請搜索的時候那你是內部趨於一致譬如說台北一致台中一致那台北跟台中會不會一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7596.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7621.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
照理來說應該也會是這個標準不會差很多的好啦 我是建議你們這個在司法的行政上這件事情可能還要可以看什麼讓人民不會覺得說哇 每次有人去送鴨怎麼大家幾個人都要看電視都要等 想說靠運氣然後幾家歡樂 幾家醜有些人開心 有些人不開心 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7622.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7638.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我覺得這樣對司法不好第二個 你們提到一個少年事件處理法要把這一個前科叫前案記錄 突銷的這一些事情我們現在很多詐騙集團就把這個年輕人怎麼說高中生你還年輕對不對你今年國中生 你去當車手如果怎麼樣怎麼樣你領工出來也都沒事這個會跟你們現在這一次要提的這些修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7651.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7680.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
會有關嗎這個我請那個廳長來說謝謝委員的催省是有關過去升職在所有的學生 家長所有的社會復歸都是突銷現在要有條件的突銷就是要保持善良品性才可以突銷不是啦我是一個15歲的國中生啊我們長大的就叫我去捏雞嘛當廁所嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7681.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7687.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我就去捏嘛 我們大人告訴我 你年輕的你去你這樣反正你現在的未成年啊 到時候都沒問題啦去用上課上課的 什麼關乎學校上課的都沒問題 幾年都沒問題 你就這樣去啊這些突銷 我現在看這些突銷會不會讓這些詐騙集團啊 跟這些未成年的一起來說你們都不用高興啊 會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7707.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7709.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
現在這一波我們送進來的修法我們也會廣為對社會教育 學校的教育跟各方面我們都會製作各項的你們教育啦 我是說詐騙集團的剛才帶到這個機會說你看 你看他通過啦 別緊張啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7725.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7729.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這齁你娘子娘娘就去上課上上的娘對不對換個環境上課而已以後給你20歲25歲的時候紀錄都沒了會這樣嗎不會 因為現在的修法就是你有一個處罰的紀錄 少年那麼輔導完畢這三年內 輔導完畢三年內必須沒有再任何觸犯法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7750.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7755.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
你十五歲進去 三年後一次十五歲都沒記錄了是不是這樣這個紀錄 原第一次的紀錄如果他三年輔導完畢三年內又再處罰 不會突銷不會 他就沒處罰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7765.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7770.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
如果都沒處法會把它突銷這是為了讓少年復歸社會就能成長對啦 我是說這款作用力就是詐騙集團就跟年輕人說說人家的立法院就通過了現在改了三年你就沒事了啦 不怕啦他也不會有千科啦你就去做 去念就對了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7784.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7812.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
包括以前是所有少年的處罰紀錄三年滿都塗銷現在是你再處罰不塗銷又留著是這樣所以這個必須讓社會整個翻轉這個概念想法跟法制的一個更新我是說我最後就提醒說這樣的一個塗銷的這個規定恐怕讓這個詐騙集團的老大直接跟小朋友講說你不用擔心立法院就是會幫你們塗銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7814.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7832.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這立法院都我們立的 連電視報說這年輕人怎麼15歲去做車手 20歲都沒問題因為立法院已經說好了 就給他取消這個有時候要點頭說就是說這件事情可能要特別去注意一下 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7851.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7871.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 謝謝主席有請副秘書長好 有請王副秘好 委員早好第一個新聞時事先跟副秘書長請教上個禮拜中華民國法官協會派了六位代表出席亞賽拜然舉行的國際法官協會的年會結果呢 這六位代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7872.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7899.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好像沒有獲得簽證也沒有相關入境的許可那可是呢明明啊國際法官協會的主辦單位有明確的承諾說會協助辦理簽證還有入境的事宜為什麼他們要這樣承諾呢因為一貫的倡導叫做包容與平等原則可是好像我看新聞最後還是沒有辦法入境就是如同這個新聞畫面所說的那你們說表示遺憾要不要說一下後續的處理跟後續的對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7900.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7917.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續有什麼處理的方法跟原則或者是後續我們如何持續精進跟國際像這樣子的看起來是一種非正式的外交但是非常重要的軟性外交你們這邊有沒有什麼態度跟後續的委員我請廳長來說明好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7922.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7937.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
謝謝委員我詮詢這個問題首先必須要說明就是說因為法官協會它是一個等於是一個民間的團體所以我想這個部分就我的了解法官協會已經有向國際法官協會去提出了一個相關的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7938.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7951.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
抗議有透過其他的國家的代表提出來我也理解就之前類似女法官協會也有相類似的情形的時候國界女法官協會就有給這個協會一個年費的免除跟讓女法官協會的會員可以在其他場合透過視訊的方式來國際發聲所以這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7961.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7978.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們也會建議法官協會是不是也要持續的向國際法官協會來做這樣子一個意見的表達就我昨天的檢索法國際法官協會現在是還沒有任何的聲明出來我們會持續的來關注這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7979.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7998.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我覺得這個部分確實要一起持續關心尤其是在新的國民黨主席出爐之後為什麼我要這麼說因為亞塞拜人一向被認為是比較親中親惡的國家如果在國際的這種互動的情勢上我們連這麼軟性的民間組織的交流都要被阻擋我們真的覺得很可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7999.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8017.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
所以當然今天司法法制不見得跟這個主席有關但是我要公開呼籲我希望所有在野黨的委員還有在野黨的主席要一起關心這個事情接下來我想要問一下下一個題目就是剛剛早上聽說有一個委員Kee Poo Poo非常生氣說他要追究政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8018.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8035.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們來看一下為什麼他要追究政治責任呢是關於他們之前修了法庭直播的問題但是呢我在這裡要公開的感謝司法院你們目前提出來的法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施辦法我認為你們大大的拯救了台灣的人權危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8037.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8061.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
但是也因為這個辦法呢讓這個委員keep put我可不可以問一下目前這個已經經過了預告而且預告期已經結束應該已經上路開始實施了 對嗎好 開始實施那可不可以請你們簡單說明一下你們所做的調整應該是說根據這個立法之後你們所訂的這些策略跟辦法如何可以避免我剛說的台灣人權侵害的進一步的危機來 請說明一下謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8063.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8077.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為首先就是說在法院組織法它規定的是公播它從來就沒有規定是直播那有關於立法形成過程當時在黨團協商的時候提案黨團委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8083.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8110.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
在這個在這個協商過程中他也說就是公播有Live就是所謂的直播還有Delay Live他說我們所講的公開播送什麼時候有說要用Live沒有Live你可以用那個Delay Live去處理這是首先我們就是回溯就是當時那個就是在修法過程中協商的時候有人說的協商的時候就是就已經而且是提案的那個黨的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8113.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8139.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
提案黨團的那個委員就是在這已經明白說這並不是要求要那個直播那另外我們從那個法組法90條第6項所通過的那個修法他規定說訴訟程序參與的人呢他可以申請把他的錄音跟錄影呢變聲變相然後就是把他去那個識別化那如果說是要這樣這麼做的話他唯一的當然不可能是直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8139.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8168.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為你不可能就是說在直播當那個一邊在播的時候一邊我們怎麼去把它給去那個識別化因為去識別化有時候是講話那個脈絡之間他沒辦法就立刻一個像講那個什麼有講什麼髒話這樣逼這樣子那個處理的那另外我們在講就是說立法議職就是說公佈他的那個目的呢他是要促進民眾他可以了解那個開庭的那個內容可是我想公佈的目的從來都不是要透過就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8170.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8189.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
輿論來公審來造成那個壓力就是影響到那個判決結果反而這個是我們要那個避免的那所以我們來回溯就是說那個立法的目的呢你不管在什麼時候播直播或者說之後播我們畢竟都是播出了他已經可以符合那個目的讓民眾可以了解整個審理過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8191.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8214.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那也可以去檢視說這個判決他那個理由的那個行程這都可以大家公開來那個檢驗那所以就是說延後播出呢他是完全沒有違反那個法庭那個公播的那個目的的好來謝謝你剛剛引用了這個羅志強委員但是你很客氣你不敢你不好意思說是羅志強委員我來跟大家報告當時在協商的時候羅志強委員自己就公開的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8215.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8233.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
他說我們沒有刷直播啊公開播送有兩種啊一種叫做直接的直播另外一種叫延遲直播他自己還把這個延遲直播講的這個好像一副很有正當性喔所以我說謝謝你們的調整因為你們在這個委員的論述基礎上你們做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8234.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8253.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個調整讓我認為後續不會有人權危機怎麼說因為之前檢察官協會民間團體也有說到法院組織法當時的草案裡面對於公開播送的範圍跟定義講得不清不楚的所以藍白自己修了這個莫名其妙的法但是自己又講不清楚所以才會出現剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8255.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8279.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
羅志強委員所說的那些事情那確實如果按照剛剛副秘書長你們的說法你們在確實相關辦法的調整跟設定上是根據這個羅志強委員當時在黨團協商所說的所以呢一去識別化二延遲時間也就是說錄影後我們做了一些去識別化之後再讓人可以去申請看這個影片對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8282.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8309.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
要看的話是不用申請那我很想請問剛剛早上有一個委員說要對您追究政治責任這會有什麼政治責任好 沒關係謝謝委員我也很想知道我們來看一下我認為會有什麼政治責任來 幾個問題我們幫你們一起看一下第一個我要再次說降低人權侵害的可能性所以我們必須要做這樣的調整例如說你們說以適當方式實施公開播送在法學上 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8310.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8330.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
含不含你剛剛說的判決後公開我們的見解是其實應該含在裡面剛剛您的說明也很清楚我們直接看第二個判決後公開播送可不可以幫助達到所謂原本的立法目的的說明他們說他們一直說要讓陽光照進法院要讓法院審理更加公開透明但是明明現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8332.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8353.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
黃國昌自己都可以去參加柯文哲這個會議所以我認為這個公開透明早就有了但是他們一直強加說沒有第三個我們也要問如何確保判決後公開播送是訴訟當時的原始影像這個可能是黃國昌委員他會很在意的我們如何確保這個部分你們有沒有相關做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8354.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8381.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為可能會有人擔心他的影像被造假啦他的影像被你們後續加工啦他們可能對你們司法院沒有信任啊你們怎麼回應這個提問假設有人提出這樣的問題就是我們在鎖定的這一個實施辦法第十條第一項呢他就有明白規定就是說所謂的公開播送是完整播送為原則那除非是說像剛剛法組法九十一條第六項規定的要變身 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8382.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8396.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
變相的這種情形的時候或者說有涉及那個個資洩漏的情形那這個部分可能就是還是要那個依規定就是要遮蔽聲音或是影像好 所以假設後續原則上都是要那個完整播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8397.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8415.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
假設後續有當事人他認為說我想要主張那個影片在被你們去識別化的變身或者是用一個馬賽克把他的頭遮起來如果他要主張說這個不是我當時的影片你們到時候會有設計相關的救濟或者是勘驗機制嗎我請那個廳長好 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8421.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8444.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個部分我想如果當事人有提出這樣的質疑法官是可以依職權來判認定這個是不是要進行影片的勘驗如果涉及到個案的公平性的問題所以其實你們已經準備得很充分了所以我要再次公開忽悠我希望在野黨的委員在相關修法完成之後司法院已經做了非常完善的配套措施跟相關的實施辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8444.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8466.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我認為已經阻擋了之前藍白黨團委員們亂修法所帶來的傷害我希望在黨委員要繼續支持這個公害實行的辦法不要讓人民一直覺得藍白在製造問題但是卻要一直讓行政機關來協助解決這些問題就如同之前80歲免巴士亮表示勞動部做了非常多的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8467.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8483.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
最後一點點時間我想要問一下關於司法少年安置的問題我知道你們一直有在跟衛福部跨部會溝通我時間有限我是不是就請您可不可以後續提供給我們辦公室相關的會議記錄跟會議資料是在可公開的程度底下因為確實現在有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8484.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8505.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
判決這些孩子們到底要到矯正學校去還是要到安置機構去因為有很多安置機構其實越來越不敢收司法少年但我們也可以理解安置機構老師們跟社工們的困境但是在這件事情上我認為司法院跟衛福部應該會有很多的溝通需要持續進行來協助這些司法少年可不可以簡單說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8510.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8529.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
謝謝委員 目前跟衛福部的部分我們確實是陸續一直開相關的這個安置相關的一個整合會議那剛剛委員說的相關會議的記錄可不可以提供這是我們可以整理的 整理完提供再來就是我們現在有四大措施 簡單報告沒關係 我們就不耽誤其他委員時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8532.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8554.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
相關措施再整理資料程給我們好不好我們辦公室會出一個所資好嗎我不耽誤其他委員時間喔謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員那麼我先做一個會議程序的預告待會在吳思瑤委員發言完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘那接下來就請吳思瑤委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8561.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8588.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
啊 蜂蜜 喝口水 辛苦好 謝謝主席 王蜂蜜委員早安大家早安 辛苦了我順著剛剛陳培宇委員的質詢我今天的質詢有兩個部分第一個部分也是我支持司法院來善後波帕王我反對法庭直播倉促的上路下一頁有一位立委喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8589.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8614.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
他前陣子有幾個名言讓我們看到他的雙標他身為公眾人物當大家在質疑他是不是有一些登載不實或者是對公眾沒有詳細的說明的事件的時候也就是質疑他是不是美國爸爸這件事情他就說了我太太非常不高興要我不要回應這種事 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8616.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8641.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這種肉搜未成年小孩的變態行為根本懶得理一個公眾人物有沒有向人民吐實人民有知的權利他用這樣子的說法去要求別人不可以肉搜他的家庭他忘了他是一個公眾人物是一個立法委員那前幾天呢他又發生了一個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8643.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8669.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
記者要採訪他這位立委就說我很討厭有人拿著手機一直對著我拍他是立法委員他在立法院的會議室接受媒體採訪面對他不想面對的問題他就反對媒體對他緊迫盯人甚至說拿著手機對我拍不可以這是這位立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8670.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8689.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
他非常的雙標啊己所不欲勿施於人但他偏偏言以律人寬以待己把人家的兒子死不了這位立委呢就是黃國昌在立法院強推法庭直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8691.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8709.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
讓所有的受害者的隱私會透過直播公審完全被揭露在法官問審問案的過程可能都會涉及犯罪的細節這都涉及受害人心中的創傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8710.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8739.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以我們一直站在保護當事人訴訟當事人的權益包括有國民法官包括陳審的法官們的權益我們都認為不要進行法庭直播欠缺配套之下可是這位立委就是別人的小孩死不了別人的隱私透過直播全都錄自己的家庭的事情該對社會揭露的事情他都選擇性的不願意面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8741.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8762.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
還拒絕人家拿著手機對他拍那他憑什麼要求所有在庭上審判過程的所有訴訟相關人等都要被強迫拍攝直播然後可能留於公審讓法院成了直播秀成了實境秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8763.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8790.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這不是雙標嗎這甚至是比雙標更雙標下一頁所以說對於法庭直播不應當急救張法院組織法不應當被政治綁架30個團體的發聲反對反對反對再反對但是黃國昌委員還有支持他的藍白在野的立委們呢完全置之不理下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8792.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8806.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
就是我当初在讨论法院组织法非常遗憾他还是进复二读我们没有机会好好讨论条文我只能透过一次一次质询的时候点出没有配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8807.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8835.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
法庭直播會讓這些倡議者所彰顯的所謂司法透明的這個大棋是為得其利先受其害這些都是我當初反對極其以為不可的理由它有違各自的保障將不利於事實真相的調查也有違無罪推定的原則也恐怕因為輿論的公審影響法官的心證判決的公正等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8835.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8859.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這些理由 咱都搞不回家啦下一頁所以整個這麼重要的這個制度變革卻是禁復二讀抱歉那個標題那個禁打錯了 更正一下很快的他還押了一個三個月內上路我問一下副秘書長當初國民法官法修正之後上路的時間是多久兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8860.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8876.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
兩年嘛甚至還有部分是明年才要因為需要一個司法制度的變革需要準備國民法規法如果我沒有記錯這是兩年半的準備期結果這樣一個法庭直播三個月上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8877.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8906.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好理加載民進黨團緊急的召開公聽會收攏了社會各界的反對意見也某種程度的讓民眾黨委員吸納了社會非常反彈的這些點納入了他的修法的修正動議有稍稍的把這個我們拆了一些些蛋但是那個地雷跟炸彈還是在10月16就要上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8908.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8918.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
三個月國民法官法準備了兩年多法庭直播三個月就這不是倉促什麼是倉促呢這不是急救章什麼是急救章呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8919.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8941.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
下一頁所以說三讀通過的法律法官協會女法官協會再一次發聲明他們都認為也要求喊話司法院要防漏補缺針對立法品質的粗糙以減少心智會有更多的受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8942.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8966.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
而女法官協會也要求對司法院喊話你們要補足配套所以呢下一頁你們修正了法庭錄音錄影公開播送實施原則有委員今天早上就是同一個委員黃國昌說你們在掏空立法院的修法意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8968.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8991.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他反對你們說了一大套其實就是他面子掛不住過去為了個案的修法是為了救柯文哲現在黃國昌只會更變本加厲因為以後可能坐在法庭裡頭受審的人就是他自己他更急切的想要透過輿論的公審他拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8993.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9007.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
你們司法院想方設法的亡羊補牢補救的措施我整理出您剛剛所說的非常清楚當時在朝野協商的時候在野黨的委員都同意是delay life |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9008.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9027.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對不對是公播而不是直播這些在協商的現場都有記錄甚至在協商的過程在野的委員都要求去識別化所以說你們做出了配套完全沒有違反立法的意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9028.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9048.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我終整了你們四個補救的辦法禁止特寫來保護案件相關人的權益 對不對是不要特寫而且不得拍攝國民法官你們也做成了普證當事人有抗告權這是為了保障訴訟的人權我支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9048.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9073.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
你們的配套還有必須在判決之後使得公開影像就是為了避免訴訟中的直播導致輿論影響判決就是Delay Live所在你們的補救還有要指定平台跟網站而不是任意誰都可以去播送我非常支持你們播放 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9074.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9093.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
雖然你們今天受到了這些委員很大的責難但是我們是負責任的善後但我還是要提醒你們雖然是指定平台避免任意播送而且是事後播放但都還是難以去防範變造或者是剪輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9095.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9105.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這就是當初我們反對的一個很大的理由這個還是沒有辦法克服嘛對不對還是你們有什麼方法可以克服這個惡意變造的部分呢我請廳長來說明這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9109.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9128.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
跟委員報告其實在立法過程中本來法院組織法的90條之4是原本的法律是有規定就是說持有法庭錄音錄影內容的人是就他所取得的這個錄音錄影是不可以散布公開播送或為非正當目的之使用原有的法律就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9129.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9157.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
對 但是因為在這次的修法中在第90條的第8項就明文規定說只要是公開播送的錄音錄影就排除了這一條的使用所以這就是一個更可怕的地方是 那因為這個涉及到的就是媒體的管制還有相關這個可能就是超過了所以這還是我們雖然想方設法拆彈拆地雷但是那個炸彈地雷還在那裡會去影響很多訴訟當事人的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9158.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9170.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
下一頁所以我要給你們送暖我要給你們肯定立法粗糙捕破網立法院叫禍司法院來善後何錯之有 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9171.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9197.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
反而立法院事後來究責司法院肇事者還來譴責善後者豈有此理我把這幾句話送給黃國昌委員下面一個主題我很快的帶過來下一頁法官不語非常遺憾有三位大法官用個人的聲明的方式而不是用憲法法庭正式的新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9199.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9223.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
事前這三位大法官用個人聲明的方式你們知悉嗎有所掌握嗎這個沒有透過我們那個司法院的對外發言的管道所以你們不知道嗎你們不知悉那你們也無可奈何因為也不知道也只能尊重下一頁法官不語跟法官要語因為時代的不同要求取平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9224.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9252.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
限訴法35條已經給予如果你有不同意見的可以出去不同意見書對不對這是體制內的可以補充意見還有呢最近同樣也有兩個限制73號跟75號裁定不同意見書裡頭都有另外的幾位大法官透過不同意見書或協同意見書針對憲法法庭被癱瘓他們提出了不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9253.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9280.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
他們認為大法官行使憲法解釋職權如果受到法律的封鎖或阻礙大法官是要自救的他們是循正常的憲法訴訟法35條所給予的不同意見書或協同意見書來闡述他的意見下一頁但是現在呢系署中案件向媒體發表個人聲明不只大法官連法官倫理規範都有禁制的規範嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9281.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9306.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以說也曾經有法官因為個別的案件審理完之後對媒體一再的說被你們懲戒被你們罰了對不對有這個依據可以處理嗎是有這個案例吧那我問你我沒有說我就依法論法我尊重大法官但是司法院也有大法官的自律實施辦法不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9308.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9317.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
有這個規定那如果說大法官違反了自律實施的部分規定是什麼這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9320.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9342.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
一個是可以送監察院一個是可以有譴責或是口頭或書面要求道歉我不介入你們的處理我只是說下一頁時代不同法官要語跟法官不語我們要去面對這件事情我基本上是同意法官不語的這個規範因為要捍衛司法的公正性 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9343.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9358.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
但是如果因為時代的變遷積極面讓法官可以透過對外更清楚的說明案件讓大家了解是為了捍衛這個司法審判的公信力但如果消極面有些要捍衛法官個人的表意自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9359.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9378.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
確實有法界在討論法官要語但我認為也應當事前或何議庭的同意或授權也應當把內容線索在判決的範圍內不宜外溢出這個框架也最好是當庭解說較為適當更要避免涉入政治的傾向價值的判斷個人的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9380.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9395.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我一向非常尊重大法官只是我認為當大法官被惡法癱瘓的時候竟然還束手就擒 乖乖就範那麼大法官就很難再被認為是憲法的守護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9396.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9413.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
又非常的遺憾透過違反了可能違反了法官不語的規範禁字對外發表的聲明我認為雖然你們是司法行政但是我要提醒司法行政有你們的規範法官要自律大法官也有自律實施的原則跟辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9414.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9439.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
你们应当要能够去思考你们能够作为什么否则未来类似的事件个别的大法官或是法官有样学样不断的对外发表个人的意见我认为这都对于宪法法庭的公正性是不宜的我把这样子的观点分享给你们我还是尊重你们的处理我也尊重宪法法庭好 谢谢好 谢谢委员垂询 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9440.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9461.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好 謝謝吳司堯委員不過剛剛吳委員講的那個議題很重要我還在想說是不是法院應該要提供一份延期報告就是針對那三位大法官在媒體上的發言那似乎剛剛吳司堯委員點到重點有沒有違反大法官自立規範這個部分的話是不是應該是法院要提出一份報告給吳委員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9464.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9485.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
謝主席我沒有要求我不會去侵入他們的處理但我只是拋出所以主席也不要我沒有這樣子的要求確實這個議題涉及到所謂的法官在什麼樣的情境之下應該要不撲雨我們知道現在還有很多法官論壇 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9486.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9504.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
就是這法官也會在網路上面他們有自己的什麼問題台上面發言那這會不會都會有一系列的相關的問題那似乎我覺得這個司法院可以就這個議題再進一步的研析不過我想如果說司法院注視這份報告的話應該也會很衝擊整個大法官會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9506.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9528.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以我要說明我並沒有要求他們要出去任何報告立法院不要再凌駕司法院了立法院不要再凌駕司法院就我個人的質詢我只是提出一些觀點的分享所以主席也不宜為我的質詢去越組帶袍去要求他們什麼我要補正一下謝謝主席的但是不要越組到那溢出了我的質詢範圍謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9529.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9537.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
其實因為我剛剛聽到我非常尊重司法院要尊重司法院立法院不要再凌駕司法院了所以這個部分的話可以請司法院再進一步的提出一個延續報告可以在一個月之內提份延續報告應該不會太久的時間吧我作為召委我應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9548.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9566.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
但是这不是我的要求我还在讲赵伟如果要您可能用提案或是您个人质询的时间去要求好吗我想作为赵伟我应该有这样的一个权利而且这个也是积极的去处理有关于委员所提出来的问题那就麻烦司法院可以在一个月之内然后提出一份相关的报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9567.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9593.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
好就剛剛講的大法官不語是不是違反大法官不語然後以及大法官三位大法官最近在媒體上面的公開的一些言論有沒有違反大法官自律規範的這個議題然後提出一份那個我建議翁委員可以直接去看大法官的自律規範這個不用再叫他們寫報告給你了啦真的不需要啦好嗎真的立法院尊重司法院好嗎大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9594.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9603.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
大家平等相為好那我們接下來就休息了好謝謝接下來休息五分鐘因為剛剛程旭已經上面已經宣告了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9920.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9926.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 那我們現在繼續進行會議接下來我們請林倩琪委員發言好 謝謝我們主席翁昭偉我們請司法院的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9940.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9964.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
有請王富密委員早早安早上聽到很多同仁在這邊的一個討論我覺得也蠻正面蠻有效度的所以也很謝謝那個司法院對於那個剛才翁委員講的那個報告我也是非常期待你們的一些看法所以你們應該在不同的一個面向可以提出一些讓大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9964.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9980.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
比較能夠正面來思考更縝密的從一個司法的觀點上來看法官不語跟法官要語的這件事情是好 謝謝好 那本席今天針對幾個長期有在關注的事情來跟你們做個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9982.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10008.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
本席長期關注有關於少年司法的問題今天要談的是本席的觀察少年司法跟行政輔導體系之間有一些割裂的現象我們整個少年偏差的行為常常家庭 學校 社會很多從壓力交織而產生的某一些結果但是司法跟行政體系如果銜接沒有那麼有效度的話再多的制度也其實會變成一種空談 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10010.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10026.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
所以依據少年事件處理法的第三條的規定那麼符合一定偏差行為的少年由少年法院來處理那麼法院可以依同法的第25條來請求警政教育醫療等系統的一個協助或者依照42條開整合協調的會議但實際運作的範圍目前多局限在處法 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10031.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10052.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
或曝險少年那麼對於偏差行為還沒有觸發的高風險的少年那整個的介入的能量依本席的觀察有點不足所以根據現行少年偏差行為預防及這個輔導的辦法第二條的這個規定少年的偏差行為包含了逃家離家還有幫派結交深夜會外出暴力行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10052.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10082.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
一些這個十多種的情形那這些行為如果早期能夠早一點介入來有效的引導可能會讓未來走向形式化的處遇的情形變少那本席發現實務上這些少年往往在管轄模糊帶那有些教育機構呢認為少府會會處理少府會呢又會認為不符開案條件那設政機關呢又認為保護個案為由大家都不介入結果最後最關鍵的時機就因此而延誤了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10083.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10097.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們希望能夠正視這個制度性的一個落差司法院你們有權來召開跨機關的協調會議根據現行的法制行政院跟司法院有定期召開相關的會議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10098.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10121.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
有嗎 有但是相關的規定是法律上只說得召開沒有說應召開也沒有相關的單位來負責追蹤所以本席幾個問題第一個是司法院跟行政院過去幾年總共召開多少跨院級的少年事件政策協商平台會議就頻率上有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10122.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10138.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
就這一點司法院和行政院的政策平台會議是一年兩次都有固定在進行一年兩次是不是針對過去五年相關的追蹤相關會議裡面的追蹤報告提供給本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10139.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10153.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
第二部分是目前少年法院跟地方少府會的協作有沒有明確的通報機制那麼少年法院不負審理或轉向處分的時候少府會是不是及時接手確保不中斷的輔導鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10154.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10158.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個部分容我請廳長來廳長很簡短的精準的回應好嗎謝謝委員這一部分原則上都有做這樣的一個所謂的連結的會議不護審理的或者是所謂的交嚴管或告誡也會轉介過去聽起來你們是有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10177.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10205 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
要不然就把相關的這個比較細節性本席這邊比較強調你們的頻率還有結果是什麼那是不是把相關資料提供給本席因為您這邊說有嘛好不好那第三個部分是呢司法院是不是要沿你的一個修法的方向然後來將跨院際協商的平台制度化常態化那麼並設置專職的單位跟跨機關的這個資源整合的這個平台來做政策追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10206.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10233.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
是不是可以研議然後來實行呢是 委員剛剛委員的說明的槌尋那其中有一個部分比較難克服就是因為在CRC就是這個兒權公約裡面落實在內國法化以後我國少年司法必須是最小化來約束這個所謂的非行少年 處罰少年或偏差但是你們有沒有去觀察到那自從這樣子之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10236.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10249.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那整個的這個在邵氏的這個處理上是不是有效度嗎還是現在變成一個三不管地帶原則上在108年修法以後把邵氏法有關剛剛委員說的曝險偏差等都移到這個所謂的這個邵府會 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10257.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10272.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那你們有沒有追蹤呢少府會那這樣子對於整個後來的這個犯罪處意還有到最後犯罪化的一個路徑是不是到最後是在這段過程裡面問題可能比較沒有看得到可是問題在後面發生了你們的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10273.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10295.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
少府會這一端我們各縣市各少年法庭這個本席在先前問過很多次就是少府會各縣市政府都有但是本席這邊提到就是說那你們真正了解少府會在執行的一個狀況嗎還有少府會的這個困難你們知不知道本席很快的講啦因為在這樣繼續本席是很有階段性的來追蹤這件事情是不是這樣啦這整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10298.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10326.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
整個是社會結構性的一個問題那麼如果這個部分現在把它推往後面也就是犯罪化的這個部分會越來越多那我們看到的少府會其實他們很多時候是叫不動人的所以教育 設政 司法就變成各自為政很重要的一個狀況是本席在先前其實有提到中央是不是應該設立一個專職的少府會的平台來研議不僅固定召開的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10327.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10334.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
然後還要專責單位的追蹤跟成效的評估那至少這個部分你們可以給本席一個專業的報告吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10336.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10355.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
本席已經提過很多次上次是上次的質詢那我已經提過這個概念了那你們對於這個部分的研議你知道本席講的問題嗎就是說當你覺得少府會現在以最小程度去影響的話呢那是不是他問題是往後推了我不知道你們沒有追蹤這個部分還有少府會實際執行的狀況他們叫得動其他相關單位嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10359.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10371.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那如果中央沒有相關的錢跟相關的人那地方的這個可能很多時候在施政的前後順序上就會被影響了你了解我講的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10373.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10396.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
如果不了解麻煩你們會後再來跟本席確定好嗎那最重要是本席提出來一個中央的少婦會的這個平台那這樣子的延期報告希望你們能夠在兩個月之內給本席好嗎這本席其實之前有講過相關的議題這個是本席一直在關心的但是現在只是做階段性的確認你們目前的進度可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10398.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10419.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
好 謝謝接下來本席要跟您討論的是司法人力的問題我想人力不足還有負擔太重一直是本席先前也一直關心的問題整個司法品質跟人權的課題會跟基層司法人力過勞會有很大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10420.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10444.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以根據你們的統計在111年度到今天法院的案量逐漸攀升其實這跟本席剛才在講的概念有點接近你們現在不是哪一個階段問題在這邊沒有發生後面就不會發生了所以你們看全國法院的案量逐年在攀升111年新收的案件大概有45萬件 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10447.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10470.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
45万多件后面零头本席就先省略112年度又增加到了48万多件然后113年度增加到了51万多件每年的成长幅度都超过一成其实是114年度7月底新收案件跟上年度的同期相比增幅已经达到了8.1这样的趋势其实没有减缓 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10471.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10486.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
但是在這個同時平均結案的日數卻拉長111年度平均結案的時間大概在99天左右112年度上升到了100天左右113年就直接上升到106天 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10489.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10516.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
沒有結案的也從這個八萬一千多件呢達到了十萬多件那後面這個數字是不是後面代表的是法官書記官法官助理長期會過勞所以在去年四月社會發生了一件痛心的事情士林地院這個法官自殺那傳訊給妻子的內容是壓力大很累那各位你們覺得這樣子的事情應該發生嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10519.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10536.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這其實不是一個單純的工作分配的問題司法整個長期人力負荷還有績效比跟心理上的一個負擔這個問題在司法改革裡面我相信你們應該有討論但是法條制度跟資訊化的建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10538.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10551.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
比不上好好來關係承載這一切的人那麼如果人沒有被當成主體來照顧的話那久了之後也是會失去靈魂的不知道您的看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10552.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10570.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
謝謝委員關心槌尋這個問題確實就是說我們法院的案件每年事實上收案都是一直在逐步增加的是啊 收案增加 然後結案日也延長特別是刑事案件我們的統計數字從111年到113年那個地方法院都平均都已經有成長到12%到15%之間那高院跟最高法院都是這樣子一個趨向 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10581.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10596.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
但是我們相對的我們每年那個人力沒有辦法增加那我們也面臨了就是我們的總元額法就是全部在司法體系的總元額法是一萬五千的那個上限所以你們怎麼克服本席剛才講的那個問題呢所以就是我們現在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10597.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10623.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們現在也是很積極的就是去跟相關單位去跟他們反映我們的問題就是說第一個看總融合法能不能突破這是一點那第二個我們司法院就是也採取了各種措施就是說怎麼樣去優化這一些程序讓程序上面可不可以就是比較精簡那這樣本席希望你提供幾個具體的相關資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10625.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10652.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那麼你們今年是不是有在針對案件暴增跟審理負荷進行全面性的分析有沒有相關的資料因為你現在回答大概時間上也不夠了目前各地方法院平均每個法案法官跟書記官的案量是多少然後第二個部分呢是第一線心理人第一線人員的這個心理健康跟過勞的防治目前正式的支持跟申訴的機制是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10653.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10676.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那麼你們如何健全健治健康檢測跟心理輔導的制度第三個部分是目前你們針對案件分流方面有些什麼改革那麼像輕微的案件的處理還有電子調節AI輔助等等目前做到哪裡那麼針對即將達到的進度落實的情形是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10676.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10701.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那你會不會簡短回應有做的或者是還沒有做的或者是您要怎麼樣提供給本席相關的這個資料可不可以簡單的回應那個委員時間的關係我們可以提出那個一份那個報告那就有關於第三點那個案件分流的部分這個也是我們現在司法行政在倡導的就是說希望那個案件來的時候可以先有一個審查的那個機制就是讓他那個分所以現在有了嗎你們在倡導但是開始做了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10702.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10721.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這是其中一部分就是我們採取的措施很多另外也在這個地方藉在這裡呼籲就是說希望在司法預算方面立法委員能夠大家都希望有更多的錢來做更多的事只要你們提出來的合理國民黨是一定支持的好嗎 但是針對本席剛才所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10722.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10737.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
不要把現階段的問題挪後了然後就當成這個部分績效是很好可是我們可以在別的部分看到延遲處理的結果是導致更大的社會成本請記得本席的這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10738.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10763.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那本席今天關心的都是長期以來在關心的那請給本席一個具體的從本席開始關心到現在你們所做的措施然後從現在開始那到未來你們定的期程點本席要很清楚的看到時間跟做法可以嗎我們會提出報告那我們的困境也會在上面反映希望那個委員能夠支持好的 那謝謝副秘書長好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10770.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10772.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
謝謝林委員那麼我們接下來請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10812.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10837.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝主席 請複密署長好 有請王複密委員早安複密法庭直播本來應該是司法改革的一大步而且在所有的民調裡面大概都有超過七成以上的絕對多數的民眾要求要法庭直播立法院也三讀通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10838.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10866.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
結果你們現在不只踐踏的立法院你們還踐踏的民意跟七成以上的民眾對著幹我現在就要進一步的提醒你法庭直播在台灣早就有啦你為什麼比以前還倒退路在2000年你是這麼資深的司法人員你也知道嗎2000年蘇建和案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10867.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10896.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
台灣就首開先例在法庭外面架設了電視機當場就現場直播了結果 過了25年了同樣一個司法院同樣一個司法院比25年還特鐵路把好不容易 三讀通過的法庭直播用黑布把它蓋起來以前國防部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10898.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10918.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
在洪中秋案的時候連基礎的那個錄影都不願意公佈大家笑他說是國防部蓋了黑布不是部會的布 是黑布的布現在司法院變成什麼 也蓋了黑布嗎我給你看一下 來 我們看一下當初當初怎麼做法庭直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10943.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10960.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這個是2000年11月16號那時候只有老三台那時候我們怎麼做法庭直播開庭的時候在外面架一部電視機所有的記者 攝影記者就直接第一時間你怎麼倒退入25年前你是什麼資深的從業人員同一個司法委員為什麼過了25年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10972.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10998.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我們往公開透明再走結果你們還抱持著這個保守跟傳統而且倒退入了25年這是第一個點 第二個點更嚴重喔你看 我為什麼今天給你看這個沒有立法的時候台灣都已經可以有法庭直播了現在立法完之後你用黑布袋又把它蓋起來你看看你的那個辦法你這樣怎麼對得起司法改革呢對得起人民呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11003.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11019.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
柯文哲都不怕啊民眾黨也不怕啊司法院跟檢察官到底在怕什麼怕任何不正訊問誘導 有脅迫有一些不法的行為公之於術嗎為什麼連這個東西都要蓋呢我剛給你看的是以前來 我們來看全世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11036.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11062.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
全世界各大洲都有法輪直播啊在亞洲 新加坡 南韓印尼 巴基斯坦連你們常在批評的中國印度 都有啊連非洲 埃及 南非南非共同體都有啊我們台灣的司法有比 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11064.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11092.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
印尼印度還落後有比埃及有比南非還落後嗎民主黨我們台灣的司法的公開透明度比這些國家都還落後嗎我們不是一直都是走路有風我們是魔幻聲嗎當好不容易往前跨了一步那到底司法院在怕什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11094.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11096.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
检察官在怕什么有什么见不得人的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11106.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11133.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
今天副秘書長都講不出話還是不知道怎麼講我現在回答嗎請說我已經問你幾下了是不敢回答還是不願意回答因為委員一直繼續講所以我不知道我不敢打斷你請說首先第一點2000年那個蘇建和案它並不是一個法庭直播它是一個延伸法庭那至於說它延伸法庭的那個做法當時事實上因為沒有一個立法依據就是很多那個做法是不是可以再進一步檢討就是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11134.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11160.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
等一下 我時間已經到了所以有兩個 你這樣有兩個重點嘛 對不對你說延伸直播那你至少做到這一個啊是不是 這是你現在比這個還倒貼入耶它就是一個法庭直播的形態嘛它等於是第一時間出來的時候我們對著攝影機拍嘛那你至少做到這一點你連這一點都還做不到怎麼會這麼離譜呢好 那更嚴重了 我跟你講今天我聽了一個早上你們在請答我是媒體人出身的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11161.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11183.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這本來我們的法律裡面就明定啊有牽涉到人權或者一些機密的你就可以遮蔽啊我自己檢查現在有多久你稍微delay的大概30秒 甚至10秒你都可以處理啦該蓋的東西 該遮蓋的都可以那台灣沒那麼浪漠欸你們講的好像洪水猛獸 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11185.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11211.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
你技術上也做得到 對不對以前都已經有 全世界也有從你民調去看七成以上的民眾結果你們現在今天到今天還在這邊硬拗我們是五前憲法的國家嘛立法院非常尊重司法院而且認為這是一個進步的立法 公開透明所以我們給了你很多的彈性跟尊重結果你們現在要踐踏的立法院跟名利又是對撞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11216.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11233.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
馬上要審預算 我跟你講這個一定在預算裡面我們會好好反映出這次司法院踐踏的這個立法院也跟踐踏民意這個回去我再好好想一想 民主黨我也對著所有司法院的好朋友們喊話 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11235.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11261.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
當司法改革向前的一步在改革跟公開透明還有特鐵路25年還比不上印尼 印度比不上埃及跟南非公開透明度而且違反了70以上民眾這個需求跟他們的這個期待這樣的司法有辦法得到人民的這個認同嗎司法已經非常脆弱了好 回去再好好思考 好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11267.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11279.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
好 謝謝那麼接下來請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來請林國成委員發言好 謝謝主席請司法院王滬密 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11297 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11303.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
行政廳的吳廳長 刑事廳的李廳長好 委員早安我看起來啊 複密越來越漂亮兩位廳長啊 越來越帥但是就跟我感覺到很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11319.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11333.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我要了解的從頭早上到現在我要了解什麼叫做直播什麼叫做輪播來吳廷長什麼叫做直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11336.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11351.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
跟委員報告所謂的直播就是說就像我們現在在談的內容目前在外面馬上就播出這個叫做直播那如果這個播出的內容不是即時播出而有延遲或延後播出那就是非直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11353.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11370.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
對啦吳廷長你明明都知道可是為什麼立法院在6月27號通過的法院組織法部分條文修改的時候本來就是直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11371.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11395.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
後面技巧性的問題授權由司法院去研擬這就是尊重司法院我們同意你技巧性你去閃避我們要尊重耶但是你把直播變成事後的這些轉播就不對了王滬密 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11396.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11408.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
真的這個就不對了保安委員那個法院組織法所通過的是公播是公開那個播送他沒有用直播好 你今天我們要上國文課是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11410.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11435.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
今天要上國文課是不是什麼叫做公播那你公播就可以拖到拖到幾天以後明明就是要直播就是說在判決之後播這本來也是各國立法常見的一種播放型態不要在那邊狡辯啦 王滬密我還稱讚你外表漂亮 內心真的很醜陋 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11437.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11447.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
包委員我們司法院我們所做所想的那請問一下我們都是為了要維持一個公平的一個審判什麼叫做公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11448.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11472.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
什麼叫做公平 直播就是直播 全世界各國 直播當然就是開庭那開庭直播的時候 說實在的 有什麼秘密可言檢察官起訴以後 那這裡面的條文 又更何況裡面充分只有兩個要素可以直播一 社會矚目 二 重大議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11473.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11501.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
一被告可以申請最後的權利是由法官來採你看看立法院多麼尊重司法院那你們為什麼一定要硬拗明明是直播你們就要事後來播放這個跟整個邏輯是不通跟整個立法研議完全背道而止王烏蜜我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11502.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11508.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我不曉得你們在怕什麼直播有什麼好怕呢現在不是直播主一大堆嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11509.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11538.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
你不呈現只是你們在組織法管理法庭管理辦法裡面不可以直播那你們就可以去變通方式可以讓有心合備可以讓他直播這也算是另外一種直播可是你們這個部分你們也不要可是我們立法研議本來就是要及時直播讓全民去看到我常講過啦真的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11540.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11559.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
心裡無鬼 心裡無邪 不怕鬼你不知道在怕什麼所以台灣民眾黨一直主張今天逐波的並非只有針對特殊案件而是這是兩個要素最後還是要你們來裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11561.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11588.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
這種東西都已經達到這整個司法獨立尊重的情況之下所以我坦白講當然因為張祺凱他說媒體人出身我是從基層出身老百姓都一直在問要我問這個什麼叫做直播什麼叫做轉播這些東西不要再怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11589.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11612.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
不要再怕所以我是覺得我還是鼓勵這是有一個制度可循也就是讓你們充分去設定一個非常完美的這些直播的制度可是你把它搞成事後來播放這個叫什麼 紀錄片的轉播 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11614.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11620.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
所以啊 王滬密我說實在台灣民眾黨非常堅持跟國際 接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11621.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11650.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
跟國際歧視要接軌剛剛張旗開委員已經講得很清楚在落後的國家他們都已經在直播了所以我還是希望王副秘吳廳長還有我們李廳長刑事案件有可能社會矚目重大議案有可能被告願意來申請直播可是最後權還是法官你們不知道在怕什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11651.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11656.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我一個代表老百姓跟你們質疑就是心內沒啥 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11658.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11682.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
不怕鬼 只要坦淡淡 公平審判 公開透明我看你們在那邊 怕什麼嘛現在直播一大堆 講快一點你今天只是 今天馬上轉播給全民來看跟你整理以後 再來播送給人民看 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11683.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11710.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
看起來似乎都是一樣但是完全不一樣因為你事後播放就可以加裝但是你直播你法官你檢察官有所政績成功在庭上這本來就是公開的東西啊你們現在不是有聆聽法庭嗎有延伸法庭嗎那為什麼不能直播所以我真的蠻建議啊我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11712.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11735.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個王滬密在這個部分我還是希望你們要重新再修改立法院這麼尊重司法院我不希望司法院瞧不起立法研友這一點我要拜託兩位廳長還有我們這個王滬密這裡要重新再來考慮我說實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11737.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11757.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
報告委員我們是非常尊重立法院的我們不覺得啦有關於我們這個時事辦法其實每個委員的看法也都不見得那個一致那沒有關係啊你們繼續啊我跟你講你們繼續啊做半套不如不做但是直播就直播怎麼會是事後轉播這種東西是違背國際 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11763.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11768.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
違背立法之精神所以我以重心長給你一個好的建議真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11770.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11797.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個直播是未來國際之氣勢更何況重要重要的這個法律程序跟事實的程序這個部分是要有形式重大社會矚目的案件才可以直播嘛不叫你每一個包括民視也來直播沒有嘛這就是社會矚目重大議題這才是直播所以我希望司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11798.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11824.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
回頭思案趕快把好好的直播的制度辦法把它重新修改好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林委員那麼接下來請傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員不在高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11825.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11850.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言不好意思我先處理一下會議時間上午會議的時間繼續進行到所有登記委員都尋答結束為止請莊委員謝謝莊委好我們有請司法院王副秘書長還有刑事廳的李廳長好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11855.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11882.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我剛在辦公室還有在這個議場這邊聽了您聽了很多委員的一個意見很多的一個感慨但是呢到底要不要公開播送或者公開播送到底是不是等於直播這個都有討論的一個空間但是我說很感慨就是說司法的一個進程你說從過去那種威權時代大家很喜歡看戲尤其那種這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11884.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11898.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這種追劇的時候 過去我常常看那個包公啊不知道那個覆滅後的 聽者有沒有聽過 看過包公呢 當看到刑案一發生以後 就派人出去 就抓過來抓過來以後呢 就自己當檢察官就開始問了自己問了 問完以後呢 不講王朝馬漢抓來以後不講 就三十大板一打下去了 糟了 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11908.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11935.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
然後自己又當法官又把他給判下去了這個民眾看起來當初那個收視率很高看了很爽民眾會覺得說這個是正義的一個伸張可是為什麼民眾看得那麼爽那種制度是一定要被全世界把它給揚棄掉因為人類變文明了人會變文明了那我們今天談這個公開播送的時候我有很大的一個感慨從過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11940.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11953.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
威權時代的那一種可以扮演警察一個人扮演警察又可以扮演檢察官又可以扮演法官的這樣一個角色就是因為要制約這樣的一個權力所以後來才會要求說那應該要來公開審理為什麼要公開審理相對就是秘密審判秘密審判太可怕了過去以前極權時代多少或者皇權的時候好多都是秘密審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11968.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11988.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
判你死刑就是死刑但是從這個公開審理這個憲法裡面一直在講的你說從老百姓的訴訟權裡面憲法也沒有去講公開審理的但老百姓的訴訟權裡面其實我們就應該可以導出既然老百姓有訴訟權的話就是要公平的一個審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11988.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12015.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
公平的一个审判那公平的审判其实就是要看说这个案子判下来以后有没有符合这个事实在这个过程里面到底是符不符合法律的正当程序我要特别提醒我们刑诉诉讼法379条那个判决当然违背法令379条那个14款里面讲得那么清楚如果说把它定性成说公开播送就是直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12016.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12026.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那開什麼玩笑任何一件你沒有去把它你沒有去把它公開你沒有去公開直播的話你最高法院你忙死了每一個案件都是判決委員法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12028.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12048.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
如果按照民眾的講法是你這個人可惡你這個人該死哪怕訴訟程序有瑕疵哪怕有刑求哪怕有人偽證但是發明最後發現剛好真的事實都是真的只是審判這個過程裡面違法而已都不可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12049.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12055.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我們其實已經變成是一個文明的一個國家了那我必須要講的就是說我先講結論再來推論你公開審理這憲法的權利那主要目的是保障被告的公平的一個審判這不是為了滿足群眾的一個好奇心那 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12067.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12085.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
从国外或者说我们的大法官里面我们也都去肯认民众本来就想有向法案提起事实审判的一个请求权而且包括听审公正程序跟公开审判的一个请求权跟程序上的一个平等公开审理有一个好处就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12087.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12116.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
大众他也满足他知的权利那借这个审理的过程里面让整个法治的教育也可以提升那公开社会当然也就会对司法比较信任那如果说你把公开审理到最后你把它导成是一个是变成是一个直播而不是它的核心价值是公平审判的话我记得在我们在审的过程里面我讲得很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12117.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12143.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
大家都討論過你增加證人跟鑑定人出庭或者這些專家出庭的一個壓力那這個整個對於這個事實的一個發現或者真相的一個發現其實都是一種障礙那當像我們這個當辯護人的當律師的你是要碰到只要一直直播的話碰到這種直播那有一照去當被告的一個辯護人 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12145.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12163.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那也要承受很大的一個壓力啊因為大家會獵巫啊哎呦 那款案件三年了 你也敢去做人的律師性侵的 你也欺負人家的事 你也敢去做人的律師就是因為重罪所以被告的辯護權他本身的權益更特別要去保障他為什麼 怕脫罪嘛你看以前的 有時候啊一個案件落後 這個A |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12171.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12191.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
可不可恶很可恶他去杀人可是当年很多警察办案是你杀了一个人你一定杀了很多人干脆所有的案子都放到你身上去他如果杀了一个人你判他死刑合理但他杀一个人你判他三个死刑判他杀三件刑事案件都是他干的全部栽给他 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12192.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12214.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
为了满足民众说这个人好可恶要死刑他该死刑可是他如果是杀一个人你不应该说他杀三个人所以我就非常的一个感慨所以本席反而必须要来还原当初在我们在审法院组执法的时候这个过程大家都很清楚你让他去公开播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12215.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12239.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
这个当然法就有争议那本席当初是想说没关系尤其是法律审尤其是做社会重大矚目的一个案件那这一些少事法加持法庭制裁这个部分只要这个部分把它做一个排除的话那是好事那也是我们去召开的公听会以后学者专家大家认为说有疑虑 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12240.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12261.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
立法院不能這樣亂搞 不能這樣民粹修法所以我們把那一顆不定時炸彈 先把第一個把它拆解掉了黨團協商的時候 大家也講得很清楚啊大家要的其實也不是直播啦就是要整個公開播送 而且現在制定出來是說你們的辦法裡面是事後我反而是肯認這樣的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12263.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12273.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
司法我最擔心的就是到最後變成淪為政治上的一個競技場直播對當事人未必是好事而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12275.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12297.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
法院我倒不認為說什麼法院法官會被獵污那個當然是會有反射的不利益但是因為畢竟這個整個法院是為人民而存在進步的我們當然要去採取可是你貿然說去把它以現在你說這個公開播送就等於這個直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12298.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12324.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
這個本席表達反對我不曉得以這樣的一個推論副秘書長還有其他委員的這樣的一個批評你不曉得什麼看法首先感謝委員剛才很精闢的論述我們司法行政其實我們從來我們做每件事情的主旨都是在促進跟維護審判的公正就是委員說的公平審判所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12326.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12340.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
公播它可能是一個目的如果它會促進公平審判的話可是公播它從來都不會是一個目的不是說我們今天開庭就是整個大家為什麼開庭就是為了讓播送給大家看所以我們避免就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12341.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12369.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
在立法過程中大家所得的疑慮就是你一邊開一邊播的時候現在就是現在這個自媒體時代每個人都可以在播的時候可能就會有上萬則評論的說應該怎麼樣怎麼樣那這些東西他會回饋到就是說在訴訟的人他的那個表現還有呢就是最擔心的就是說這些他會去影響到就是所謂的這個輿論公審就是影響到那個判決那因此呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12370.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12395.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我們既保持了公佈他的目的就是讓更多的人可以去了解法庭的情形就是讓他給透明化我們維持了這個目的但是又避免到審判他會各自還有隱私的干擾還有最重要的是會影響到判決的公正性所以把他放在宣判了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12396.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12414.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
就是把它還原把它給那個播出我們因此做了這樣子一個設計讓法院越透明其實這是好事是的而且對於讓民眾對司法的信賴那其實都可以理解但是呢我認為公開播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12415.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12442.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
不是不等於公開直播而且事後你像比如說我們就是事後那還是一樣把整個法庭的一個活動只要不涉及到隱私的部分讓民眾去知道其實我反而會覺得這個就是透明這個就是一個透明否則的話你全部都是用即時然後用直播的這樣的一個方式這個是有一種怎麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12445.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12464.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
老百姓覺得很爽好爽 你看法庭上的活動就是這樣大家開始來評論我不認為這對當事人是一件好事那我接下來要請教的就是說我們這一次的精神衛生法裡面那這一次有幾個問題要來就教副秘書長的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12471.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12495.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我們在看這一次精神衛生法的參審制度我不曉得我們司法院這個地方你到底準備好了沒有那對於由專家的參審法庭的制度由職業法官跟醫療專家跟病權團體代表共同組成一個法庭來進行這樣的一個審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12497.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12526.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那我们在2022年12月14号三读修正通过以后对司法院来讲的话是一个很大的一个变革其实对于司法审查制度也是全面的一个升级明年就要上路了嘛明年就要上路了但是呢有几个问题我必须要去讲的就是说面对这样的一个跨专业的一个制度的一个转型法官可能会碰到很多新的问题你像比如说你现在法官读审变成参审 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12526.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12553.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那你跟其他兩位的參審員的分配訊問的部分你怎麼去做一個處理或者說醫界跟法界之間的專業的隔閡你如何在短時間裡面讓法官去快速釐清案情並做出一個裁定所以我要請教司法院這個地方就是說對於這個即將上路的一個制度我們到底為法官做了哪一些準備跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12554.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12567.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
因應措施 你像比如說教育的訓練 專業的資源 諮詢的制度這些都會直接影響到整個制度的落實跟品質我不曉得傅秘書長你的看法好 謝謝委員關心首先就是有關於專家參審的心智我們要做的措施非常多就是這期間以來都有跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12576.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12590.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
衛福部相關部會就是做跨部會的協調跟訂定執法硬體方面就是有新的法庭的建構跟資訊系統這些我想時間關係我就不詳細說至於委員所關心的這一個就是沒錯法官跟醫界都需要有賠利對於新制度所以我們辦了很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12600.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12609.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
跨領域合作的社區共事營還有工作坊也就是做共事賠利對於相關的法官還有醫界跟心理專家還有社工的領域專家做共事賠利另外對於推廣這樣的制度跟一般的民眾對話又辦了很多的社區共事營來做社會溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12628.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12635.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我比較擔心的是什麼呢你像譬如說過去法官沒有參與這一塊那你現在法官進來依法官的習性法官就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12636.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12659.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這有涉及到類似於強制處分的問題要把人送去病院你像比如說你精神衛生法裡面你第七次條規定你說嚴重的病人沒有訴訟代理人沒有代理人的部分法院應該選任律師擔任代理人並且指派程序監理人那碰到一個問題了你代理人的希望說不要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12661.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12688.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
不要去扁他就說不要去程序監理人認為說他這個應該送到醫院裡面去那這個時候你法官怎麼裁你法官 你看到律師跟程序代理人意見相著的時候你怎麼辦你這個程序監理人認為就已經達到強制住院的標準可是應該去進行一個保護性的處置就說不要去對我當事人比較好你這個時候 你法官你要怎麼去做出一個裁定這個我讓廳長來回答來 廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12691.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12714.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
謝謝委員的垂詢這一部分我們已經陸續一直在開這個所謂的專家參審跟職業法官還有就是法輔律師目前設計的制度是在緊急安置時要派法輔律師進去然後一旦申請到法院來審理這個所謂要不要強制住院的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12716.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12721.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
緊急安置繼續中所以我們已經跟法府取了共識這時候法府律師繼續來法庭進行這樣的一個陳述跟維護病人的權益那這個法府的律師跟程序監理人現在有幾個工會推出來的在 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12735.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12745.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
精神醫院執業過的這些心理師 社工師我們都一起有非常多的討論共識模擬法庭13次都有讓他們來做溝通練習還有做評議的練習那我們去觀察然後把這些蒐集以後我們現在訂定審理的相關的準則跟評議的規則然後讓他能夠落實專業跟溝通跟實際的效果以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12763.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12784.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
其實我們要做的倒不是只有說新的一個審理的一個程序啦其實更是要讓病人跟家屬都可以安心啦都可以安心啦那我們除了法官這樣的一個訓練啦模擬法庭啊那我也期待啊就是我們司法部要更去加強的部分就是說譬如說你參審法庭你空間的規劃啊設備的一個設置啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12788.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12816.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
改建的一個工程的一個進度像這些都要再去加把勁畢竟這個是司法過去是沒有參與到這一塊這塊以前不是你們在務的但問題是法官也不是上帝的那以現在來看的話精神衛生法它以這樣子我們現在進步的一個修法必須要那麼多的一個團體還有跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12816.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12832.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那到最後為了讓法官也來做一個把關讓司法的密度來做一個提升除了人員的訓練以外那你也必須要把這些當成未來是司法的一部分該加強的部分還是要去建制好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那麼接下來請賴慧媛委員賴慧媛委員賴慧媛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12847.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12864.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或者是以書面答覆者還請司法院要盡速送交到各別委員會以及各別委員以及司委會這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12867.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12886.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那麼賴會員委員他所提出來的書面質詢會列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那麼今天的會議的所列議程都已經處理完畢那本次會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |