| IVOD_ID |
16969 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16969 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-20-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-22T08:41:56+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-22T12:26:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:44:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e8a46bec1ad1976d34658218f82e712290aa126c40303dc2760e0b6bcbf8a4fe45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:41:56 - 12:26:00 |
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現在開始開會 請議事人員宣讀請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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立法院第十一屆第四會期財政委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百二十四年十月十三星期一九十至十二十二十六分十月十五日星期三九十至十二十二十九分十月十六星期四九十至十二十十一分地點群雄樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十四人列席委員黃國昌委員等十七人列席官員一百二十四年十月十三日星期一 |
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1151.534 |
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1171.002 |
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經管會主委彭金龍 所屬機關首長季中央存保公司監管相關機構有關制裁團法人 各公司等董事長總經理10月15日星期三 行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝及所屬各單位主管審計部審計長陳瑞敏及所屬各單位主管10月16日星期四 |
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1172.743 |
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1201.61 |
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財政部部長莊翠雲所屬機關首長及國營事業董事長總經理各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董監事主席李昭吉為昆城10月13報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定意思錄確定二邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融率所屬機關首長及中央存款保險股份有限公司監管相關機構有關制財團法人台灣證券交易所股份有限公司台灣期貨交易所股份有限公司 |
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1202.79 |
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1216.98 |
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臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長總經理列席業務報告並被質詢金金管會主委彭金榮提出報告後藉由委員林德福等17人提出質詢金金管會主委彭金榮 |
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1218.941 |
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1237.836 |
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臺灣證交所公司董事長林修銘財團法人證券匯買中心董事長簡立宗臺灣集保結算公司董事長林秉輝及相關人員予以答覆決定一報告舉行到完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請監管會議週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從期鎖定 |
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1238.677 |
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1243.08 |
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10月15日報告事項邀請行政院主計總署陳主計長淑姿 審計部陳審計長瑞敏衰所屬單位主管列席業務報告並被質詢經行政院主計總署陳主計長審計部審計長 |
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1260.37 |
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1286.312 |
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提出報告後 藉由委員林德福等18人提出質詢 均應主計總署陳主計長 審計部陳審計長及相關人員予以答覆及說明決定一 報告舉行答案完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊 請相關部會議週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限則從其鎖定三 委員陳玉珍所提書面質詢 略錄記錄刊登公報 並請相關部會議書面答覆 |
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1303.747 |
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10月16日報告四項邀請財政部雙部長崔雲衰所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長總經理韓個轉投資事業機構公股代表志董監事列席任務報告並被質詢經財政部雙部長提出報告後暨委員林德福等17人提出質詢 |
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1320.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
軍經財政部莊部長台灣金鴻董事長林忠元趙鋒金鴻董事長董瑞兵台北金融大樓董事長賈永傑台灣英九公司董事長湯琪安及相關人員予以說明及答覆決定依報告及巡邏MV二輪諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1322.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1348.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
未及答覆或請補充資訊請財政部一周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者重啟鎖定三委員羅明財陳昀臻林楚英所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報並請財政部書面答覆宣讀完畢因為在場委員未處法定人數我們議事錄暫不確定我們原例介紹我們今天在請議事人員宣讀今日議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1350.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1373.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
邀請行政院主計總署財政部就中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法修正後一般性補助款審查與評比基準財務計劃檢核基礎撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何修改財力及次計算公式之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何計劃型補助款範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1375.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1395.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
與業務定義對各縣市及未來整體財政補助金額之影響進行專題報告並被質詢 宣讀完畢好 我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹吳秉瑞委員我們與會的政府官員我們主席總處主席長陳淑芝 陳主席長歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1400.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1425.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
公務預算處處長徐永毅徐處長歡迎你財政部我們部長今天去參加APEC會議所以今天有我們的政務司長阮清華阮次長歡迎國庫署的陳柏誠陳署長歡迎你負稅署李志忠李副署長歡迎官務署蘇副署長歡迎你 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1429.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1445.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
國產署 郭小榮 郭副署長 歡迎您財政資訊中心 謝明峰 謝副主任 歡迎您我們現在就請行政院主席總署陳主席長來進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1455.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1480.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀貴委員會就中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法修正後一般性補助款審查和評比基準財務計劃檢核基礎撥款方式等規範和作業程序為何然後修改財力及次計算公司之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何計劃型補助款範圍以業務定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1484.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1511.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
對各縣市未來整體財政補助金額的影響提出專題報告資檢要說明如下第一個為充裕地方財力促進地方均衡發展本次在修正財劃法之前中央已經透過中央統籌分配稅一般性補助款還有計劃型補助款三項的財源持續協助地方從105年的三者合共5549億到115年 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1514.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1517.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
度中央對地方挹注高達一兆1650億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1523.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1540.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
整個比105年度多出兩倍然後也比114年增加1519億創歷史新高所以中央持續加大挹注地方的一個財力整體它稅出的盈餘由101年度的短處589億到113年度的剩餘818億 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1548.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1552.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
一年以上的未償債務餘額也由1105年的高峰8689億減到113年度的7400餘億那114年3月21他公布修正財化法中央和地方的財政資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1565.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1582.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
经过大幅度的一个调整这115地方可获得统筹分配税是8841亿比休华前大增4165亿比114年度成长约9成然后这里面他也规范说 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1582.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1601.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
一般性補助款不得少於修法前的預算額度也就是兩千五百零一億這次修法只有調整中央的地方稅收大幅削弱中央可運用來調劑地方營需引導台灣均能發展的財源但是並未 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1602.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1619.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
並同檢討中央和地方的事權所以如果維持以往的一個補助的內容和方式那加上中央在國防安全公共建設科技發展社會福利等方面支出所需要的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1619.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1634.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
将违反公共债务法的举债流量上限15%的规定所以中央115年度总预算的抽编非常困难所以中央必须要调整补助的项目和范围 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1635 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1656.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那補助的辦法在114年8月29日修正發布第二條補助辦法第二條規定中央位模全國之經濟平衡發展得市直轄市縣市政府財政收支狀況具有效益涵蓋面廣跨越視線具有釋放性作用以及因中央重大政策事項予以補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1657.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1681.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
其中一般性補助款包括具經常性普及性基本建設和維運性質還有財政均衡等四項二計劃型補助是以一般性補助以外的一個四項它的性質有規類如下第一個涉及特定區域或對個別事項的一個協助第二個就是依法由主管機關編列預算的一個補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1682.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1708.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第四個是一百一十五年一般性補助總共編列兩千五百零一億元內容主要是協助弱勢保養社會福利經費四百零六億元第二個專項補助具經常性普及性或其他基本建設維運性質的有一千七百六十四億元包括一教育八百一十九億元二福利照顧和社會安全三百四十億元三 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1709.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1732.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
文化體育治水道路交通等基本設施605億元還有第三個財政均衡補助和考核獎勵金是331億元財政均衡主要是保障市縣115年度統籌分配稅款一般性補助和計劃型補助的一個家種只多不少五 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1734.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1757.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
補助機關公開透明補助訂有相關的一個規範如下第一個補助辦法第三條中央各主管機關應就補助項目補助比率計劃評比基準和相關程序訂定處理原則第九條也規定中央主管機關對直轄市申請的補助款按他的補助性質訂定明確和客觀的審查評比基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1758.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1783.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
財務計畫 檢核基礎和撥款方式等規範通知直轄市政府於一定期限內提出申請補助款的撥款依行政院所定的撥款原則辦理那這些的補助款的處理原則和申請規範作業程序應補助計畫多元是由中央各主管機關按補助項目的性質予以規範 審查和評比 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1787.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1803.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
評比基準還有財務計畫以交通部來講相關的大眾捷運系統的周邊土地開發生產作業要點都明定審核地方政府可行性的一個研究包括綜合規劃書然後必須要一併檢視經濟和財務效益還有相關計算指標包括經濟效益評估指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1811.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1826.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
的季限值一本比還有內生報酬率等還有財務評估指標的一個自償率經營比負債比率等還有明確規範個財率及次的自償率和非自償率的補助比率 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1827.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1848.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
三115年一般性補助屬於經常性普及性和基本建設維運性質的專項補助有1764億元本總數在114年9月7日召開會議向各機關和各縣市妥為說明分配方式那可量化指標的項目總共有959億元那請部會也朝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1852.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1863.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
就是簡化地方填表方式來申請取以805億元也是透過明確和客觀的審查指標請部會朝簡化方式和地方溝通辦理4 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1867.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1882.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
為撥款作業方面本院定有補助款撥款原則依補助計畫金額按級距採購花包與我以及補助項目性質而定撥款方式包括採購花包後一次撥付分期撥付 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1883.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1902.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
然后后续依进度拨户等等至少保留5%为款再完成结算使得拨户那人事会基本维运对民众补贴的项目则依据实际付款条件和业务需要来拨户另外补助办法第三条中央对直辖市县市政府就所 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1904.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1922.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對縣市政府補助應該依財力級距給予不同補助補利最高補助百分之九十因第四條規定直轄市和縣市的財力級距依最近三年自有財源比例的平均值依序平均列為五級並由本總署每三年檢討一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1923.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1940.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
自由財源比例是指稅入扣除補助和協助收入後佔稅數的一個比例考量財化法修正以後跟縣市自由財源影響甚至於稅務部分有加計財化法修正後統籌分配稅款影響來涉算結於本次財化法修正後 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1940.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1954.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
中央大量釋出四千一百六十五億元但是卻沒有並同檢討釋權不僅造成垂直分配不公影響中央施政量能之外也造成水平分配不公的地方所獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1956.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1981.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
以地方所獲得統籌分配稅款一般性補助和計劃型三項加總增加最高的市縣達275億元但是仍然有台南市等9個市縣貨配低於修法前為解決此不合理現象本市中央對地方補助薪資中保留財政均衡補助及考核獎金331億元藉此保障所有市縣115年所獲得統籌分配稅一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1985.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1996.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
性補助及計劃性補助三項加總比114年只增不減 以上報告敬請各位委員 理事先生指教 祝大家健康快樂 萬事如意謝謝好 我們謝謝陳組長那現在我們來確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2003.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2020.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們先確認這個上次的會議議事錄請問在場的兩位委員對上次會議的議事錄有沒有意義 沒有意義他們上次的議事錄確定現在我們請財政部阮清華 阮市長做專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2029.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2044.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
主席 各位委員 大家早安今天貴委員會邀請主席總署跟本部就中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法修正後一般性補助款審查與評比的基準財務計畫檢核的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2048.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2074.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
撥款方式等規範及作業程序等等這些問題那麼進行專案報告以下請就涉及本部業務的部分就是包括就是統籌分配稅款這部分做一個簡要的說明進行指教中央對地方裁員的依註包括統籌稅款及一般性及計劃性補助款鑒於新版的裁判法列金總統在 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2076.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2095.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
今年的3月21號公佈施行統籌稅款的規模大幅度增加在考量地方自有財源增加及維持中央財政穩健下行政院主席總署配合檢討補助的制度基於中央對地方補助適宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2096.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2111.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
系屬主席總書的權責本部原則上尊重主席總書的規劃另外經以115年度各稅預算案資料來涉算統籌稅款規模達到新台幣8841億元比今年度4676億元增加4165億元成長89% |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2125.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2139.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
相对使中央政府经常性的收入大幅度减少严重冲击中央施政能量及调剂地方政府间财政营需的能力为了达成均衡城乡 均衡台湾的目标 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2140.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2167.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
需要全盤來檢討新版的裁划法在水平分配部分本部已經在去昨天在邀集各地方政府在先前三次會商既有的共識的基礎之下繼續討論協商尋求最大的共識至於垂直分配部分是中央以地方市權的分配跟支出市權的調整相關主管機關也已經進行開始進行研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2169.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2187.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
等到获治结论之后本部将并案纳入裁划法的修正草案循法制作业的程序那么配合行政院的政策来办理以上说明敬请各位为指教谢谢好我们谢谢阮次长 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2189.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2209.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們現在開始詢答先做一下宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘不要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記我們現在依登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員來質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2234.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2256.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
謝謝主席是不是請陳主席長好請主席長委員好主席長你好主席長我請教因為主計總署修正補助辦法調整一般性補助款補助範圍將在明年適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2257.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2283.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那有媒體就是報導說目前送立法院的115年度預算也將受到影響那主席長針對媒體報導修正辦法把一般性的補助款納入部分原本歸在計畫型補助的事項而且地方申請一般性補助款需要經過各部會核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2284.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2300.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那請問你認為會不會有自在難行的地方這個部分我跟委員報告因為我們今年在115年預算的籌備上是遭遇到很大的一個困難就是說第一個我們原來的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2301.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2316.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那個財化法修正以後我們把一宣統籌分配稅款分出去4165億然後又指定一般性補助款要為止2501億元的一個水準那但是相關的事權卻沒有移出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2317.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2336.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以這整個一個破壞的整個中央政府的一個財政的一個韌性也打擊到他要對縣市地方政府補助的一個能力所以這個部分我們不得不調整這個補助的一個項目和範圍那這個部分我們也針對計劃型補助裡面有一些是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2338.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2356.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
在申请上它的过程程序是比较繁复我们希望把它简化所以有一部分虽然到一般性补助里面项目来罗列但是我们也简化它相关的一个申请程序所以保证它将来在执行的部分事实上是没有问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2357.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2376.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
你認為財化法修法前後以及補助辦法修正前後中央與地方政府在施政的效力和效能上可能會發生哪些變化對全體國人又會有哪些的影響依您看 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2377.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2400.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
第一个我们对于那个我们都希望能够均衡能够照顾的我们整个一个所有的二十二县市的所有的全体国民能够受到均衡的照顾但是现在如果是这样因为它在水平分配上会有一个很大的一个落差所以现在我们把它整个部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2400.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2419.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
按財力分級來做一個分配分配之後然後我們也把它簡化所以這個部分整個如果是屬於原來縣市應該辦的事項我們整個把它下放給縣市直接來辦理整個對縣市來講的部分就不用再經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2421.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2440.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
中央的一个拨款或者相关的一个程序这个部分整个就在程序上是会比较顺利那如果说计划型的一个补助的部分呢如果整个一个以往都必须要透过计划的申请现在我们也给它简化所以整个在程序上是顺利很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2441.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2469.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
主席長 是修正補助辦法中陣列中央主管機關對直轄市縣市政府申請一般性的補助款應訂定計畫審查與評比的基準這個財務計畫檢核基礎以及撥款方式等這些規範以及作業的程序那我請問主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2472.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2492.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
中央機關主管審查基準是採因地質疑還是因事質疑又或者是因人質疑換句話說有學者就指出說新辦法對一般性補助款所列舉的經常性 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2493.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2521.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
普及性以及基本建設或維運性質以及財政均衡等用語背離補助款制度應追求的透明公開與公式化的原則所以容易導致政治分配甚至於黑箱作業進一步來加深地方財源的不確定性我請問主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2522.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2547.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
妳有什麼看法其實一般性補助裡面本來裡面就有一些指定的項目那指定的項目也是都有訂一些相關的一個管考一個規定那所以這個部分現在只是說它的項目可能很多很多都是原來的計劃型的補助的項目的延伸那所以現在如果說這個部分我們再給它簡化的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2547.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2572.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
事實上在整個程序上是比較順利另外我們也把原來縣市應辦的項目回歸給地方去辦理地方直接就可以辦理不需要再透過中央的撥款的一個程序所以這個部分應該是更簡化它的一個程序所以也沒有所謂四人而是它是看業務的一個性質然後本身就它的各縣市的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2573.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2595.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以這個部分是由各部會去做一個檢討和改進主席長 是中華經濟研究院上個禮拜五發布今年第四季台灣整個經濟的預測大幅上修全年經濟成長率到5.45%第四季甚至比第三季整個預測預估的3.05%大增2.4% |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2603.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2629.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
對於預測機構紛紛上修全年的經濟成長率主計長在上個禮拜財委會答詢時你也說AI需求持續抗好今年經濟成長率應該有點低估啦那應該是可以再超過4.5%那我請問主計長主計總數上修第四季整個經濟成長率的估測主因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2631.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2647.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
第一个是我们要看第三季因为第三季它事实上状况还是很好所以等于是说它的一个热度并没有说减少很多所以当初本来预估它可能会减少因为关税的因素会减少很多但是事实上并没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2647.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2668.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以這個部分我們當初預估以主計總數是預估4.45那其他國外也有預估是5.1還有包括中研院他預估的部分是5.45比我們高出一個百分點那目前我們也大概預估我們是有點低估大概我們是預估至少會達到百分之五這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2670.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2695.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
如果按照第三季的一個情況去做預估可能是有點低估主席長因為中青院估算台灣GDP年長率年增率5%當中有4個百分點是來自AI相關那我請問主席長那是不是代表AI以外的這些國內產業很多都是經濟衰退的 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2696.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2724.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
是不是 传产是比较影响比较大但是现在就是说我们本身因为我们又有韧性韧性5500亿下它也会有影响影响本身大概将近1.1个百分点所以这个部分对将来的一个经济一个成长本身是有助益的还包括我们追加预算包括我们相关的一个这个对整个经济成长都是有所帮助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2724.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2742.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
主席長 是五月底美國總統川普對等關稅政策攪亂了全球的整個經濟情勢那主席總署當時還說今年經濟成長率勉強飽三那主席長川普對等關稅政策到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2743.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2752.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
也還沒有定案那中華民國的關稅條件甚至於比日本韓國還要差那我請問主計長你認為上修經濟成長率會不會太過於樂觀會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2760.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2775.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以现在就是说因为我们关税的部分一直都还没有确定而且半导体的影响有一些大部分都是豁免关税所以它一般的一个后市市也仍然并没有说 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2776.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2797.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那因為這樣子所以還是有看好所以反正這個它的一個長勢那你們這樣一估會不會太樂觀還是全球經濟成長有爆發性台灣更是獨步全球又或者現在只是衰退現象的延後未來還是要面對衰退的一個苦果你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2798.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2823.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以這個部分因為台灣受AI和半導體的影響還是很大這個部分所以我們還是希望說還是預估其實我們主計總署預估本身就是比較低估但是中央醫院整身的一個預估它就是達到5.45比我們多出一個百分點但是我們大概預估也不會低於5如果修正預估的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2823.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2848.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
另外本席要請教根據主計總署消費者物價指數CPI來看9月年增率為1.25%創下2021年4月以來的新低核心的CPI年增率1.46%則是7個月來的新低只要攸關小老百姓17項重要的民生物價 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2852.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2877.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個漲幅擴大到2.47%那卻是一年半以來最大的漲幅那我請問主計長為什麼重要民生物價漲幅會持續的攀升你認為下降的可能性有可能性嗎簡單的來講像這些外食的物價受影響調漲後你認為有調降的可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2878.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2906.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
因為我們大部分主要是水果 蔬菜還有外食類這個部分是長得比較維持然後這個部分主要是因為我們受那個災害或天氣的影響但是這個部分它是短暫性的所以它本身就會像一般國外的一個整個一個材料 原料 原物料包括石油它都是往下降所以它整個368項的一個產品它都是整個平均之後它是往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2908.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2918.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
提供17項重要民生物資相關的物價還有也有分中低收入家庭相關的物價來提供參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2919.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
2946.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那個最後一個我想就是包括台鐵的便當八十塊他現在裡面的排骨還有肉塊都變小縮水或許是足跡總住和台鐵都有理由來這個解釋但是民眾對外食物價的看法就是反映低薪高物價的無奈本席以為民眾掏錢買便當三十年前都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
2947.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
2975 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
重重隆隆游刃有餘三十年後的現在卻是貨比三家還是買不下手買個便當哀嚎太貴又怕被笑沒出息換來的卻是政府機關掩飾太平的沒關係那我請問主席長政府有足夠的魄力和有效的辦法改變現狀縮小貧富差距嗎如果有的話那為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
2976.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
2992.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
幾十年來任薪資趕不上物價上漲如果沒有那像那個普發現金是常態又有又合常不是一種重分配提升民眾生活增加心理韌性的做法主席長你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
2993.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3017.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為我們都有定期召開物價穩定的一個小組來做討論但是沒有用啊定期召開我知道啊然後也有針對這個部分像我們有很多的一個一轉四的支出就整個是在降低整個財富一個貧富差距的一個整個的一個平均數我是認為政府是控制不了的而且那個物價穩定小組我認為那個也沒有用謝謝好 謝謝好 現在請吳秉瑞委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3030.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3057.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席麻煩請財政部阮次長請阮次長委員好次長早根據您的報告114年度的統籌分配稅款的規模是4676億那你有沒有估算過到了年底實際上會是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3058.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3083.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
因為這是預估數嘛 這個不是實際數這個是按照通知分配數嘛對 但是以前歷年每一年到了年底的時候有剩餘的時候還會再一波嘛對…好 那以113年來講113年你的預估數是多少113年了統籌分配數 因為113年已經結束了114年現在到10月就還有兩個多月嘛所以你今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3084.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3093.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
估算數是4676我認為會高於4676有可能不是有可能是一定會所以我拿113年來跟你檢討你113年的數字是多少113年的數字你現在趕快提供給次長113 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3104.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3113.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
45394539是預估數嗎那實際數是多少實際分配的數字4539那原來的預估數是多少原來預估數是這樣 我是不是待會再他們找到以後再來補充我就是要跟你講說其實你這個預估數是失真你這個預估數 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3131.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3141.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
規模少太多了像舉個例子你的報告裡面講說114年度476億元到了115年會增加到8841億所以會增加4165億不止啦因為台灣的GDP像剛剛主席長講的今年可能會增加5%那光這5%的消費稅整個國內的消費規模會增加多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3159.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3177.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那增加多少裡面5%的消費稅收會增加多少所以你這個都比原來實際要發生的數字都保守就是說如果它稅收繼續比亂稅增加的話那當然出去的金額就大了今天的媒體報導我看到說昨天的媒體報導說 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3180.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3196.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
9月的這個電子產品包括AI的這個訂單是900多億美金創歷史紀錄那以前的歷史紀錄就700多億而已一口氣拉高到100多億美金這個GDP規模當然我知道你現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3196.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3211.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
就兩塊嘛 M型傳產的部分因為被中國這種政府補貼然後這個沒有照民主國沒有照自由世界的這個經濟方式在運作所以傳產的部分都被中國捲得很厲害全世界都一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3213.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3234.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
有的人就是不會去怪中國他就是怪自己的政府不管他是從哪個觀點來看但是我們在電子跟AI這部分不得了現在全世界成長最快的就是美國跟台灣所以GDP顯然會增加很多所以這個我想委員都很清楚不然講113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3237.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3244.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
後來第二波再撥給地方政府的有多少第二波的 就是到年底年底的時候再撥的460 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3251.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3271.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
465億啦那就是比你餘估數要多的東西嘛因為只要是時增數超過預算數的話就會有額外在撥的問題啦那因為你們的預算的收入你們把那預算的收入我講了非常多遍你們都估得很保守所以讓每一次時收數都高過預算數很多那就引起很多政治上無謂的紛擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3273.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3295.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以我了解過去這幾年的確是有這種情況不只這幾年 今年也一樣今年我跟委員報告今年到目前實收數會比較少的原因是因為你因應關稅所以讓他可以延緩繳稅然後可以以前的預估稅也不收了是因為這樣子所以你們預算的執行數才稍微落後 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3297.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3309.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
最主要他是同意他分期或者是延期繳納那一塊再補回來你們還是超過預算數這個要看到年底到目前為止不然我們來打賭你敢不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3311.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3327.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個東西真的是很難因為十月十一月我敢跟你打賭不然我們來打賭誰輸誰吃掉我想這不是打賭明明就看得到的東西讓你們財政部每次的估算都要算得這麼保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3328.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3354.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我不知道這個意義在哪裡你們意義說我們的徵收稅數我都已經達到百分之百所以我們的表現很好我在這邊講過非常多次了就算你們的稅收收不到百分之百稅到百分之九十八百分之九十九有誰會怪你們呢因為那是一個預估數啊那你們就寧願把它估得非常的保守然後讓實徵數來超過預算數很多就讓人家講說你看人家還稅於民還稅於民是個假議題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3356.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3382.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
全民都拿到又不是繳稅人拿到那還稅給誰啊你如果要還稅於民真正的定義誰繳還給誰對不對那不是嘛就是隨便扣一個帽子就亂講那就是因為始作俑者的原因就是我講的你們的估計都真的估得太保守你看113年度最後一波額外撥補400多億給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3383.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3411.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我相信今年114年一樣甚至還超過400多億這個數字因為今年比較特別因為還有台美關稅的問題台美關稅的問題所以現在還很難預料總統昨天已經跟你講好消息了台美關稅第一會比現在的再降第二不疊加第三關於電子產品那一部分還有更好的條件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3412.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3439.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
你現在講這個是跟總統昨天講的是你是打他的臉是不是也不是啦其實我是覺得像其實政府的努力要讓全民知道這麼努力在做然後被你看前面的資訊把你們講得一無是處所以我跟委員報告所以我們過去我也跟委員報告過就是說我們現在成立這個就是有關預算估測的小組其實它也發揮一定的功能就比如說像今年來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3440.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3449.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我覺得會不會到委員講的400多億這個其實還在未定之天但是基本上我們已經朝一定會超過4676億這一點肯定吧我剛剛跟你講的是一定會超過4676億不會不會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3458.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3484.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個目前的估測以我們目前的相關單位的估測今年是相對保守啦也就是說到目前為止啦就中央來講是大概減了比去年同期的話大概減了1.7%所以到這個下個月我就剛剛跟你講了你會少1.7的原因是你同意讓人家延緩還有分期啊你如果沒有這個東西的話你現在是超過這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3485.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3508.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
超過這個一點多啊沒有錯但是他既然准他延期或分期以後我今年就不能用了嘛是啦那所以是因為你的政策同意讓他延緩繳稅嘛那我要如果這樣的話我如果可以這樣調整的話那我都故意啊我讓你今年要繳的稅明年再繳那我當然我今年就達不到啦但是我們現在就是算實際數因為主計跟財政這兩個單位對於這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3513.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3532.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我個人是認為一定要精確不然在施政上會發生很多的扭曲謝謝委員指教這一部分我們真的在努力希望能夠將來在估算的時候更精準另外你們現在在跟地方政府在談這個分配財政收支劃分法我認為正本清源它除了收還有支 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3533.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3562.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
所以資的部分要先釐清權責要先劃分清楚之後才根據資的部分誰的權責要花多少錢再來分配你千萬不要收的部分先分一分之後然後資的部分沒有釐清那給他那麼多錢我以新北市政府而言我來自新莊嘛新北市政府光統合分配稅款多了四五百億那你如果沒有跟他講要怎麼用的話那這四五百億要幹嘛拿來普發嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3563.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3584.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以跟委員報告所以我們現在就是雙管齊下第一個就檢討這個垂直分配我覺得行政院把能力拿出來啦現在已經在做了那個分配都有在做很慢啦你這個去我記得今年年初的時候跟我回答說本來的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3586.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3602.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
是要今年的年終就要提出了就現在已經到了年底了你們現在還在開會還在檢討然後明年看起來今年要提都來不及了嘛那前兩天卓院長還在那邊四眼淡淡說要提出新的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3603.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3627.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
雖然你提出了新的版本我認為本院不會採取因為本院現在討論事情只比力量沒有在跟你比道理的但是你仍然應該要很認真的快一點提出是 我跟委員報告我們現在是真的是積極在處理比如說昨天我們開會是針對是什麼針對水平分配那部分我看你昨天開會是因為今天要開這個會 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3629.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3656.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
如果今天沒有要開這個會你昨天會開那個會嗎我跟委員特別澄清這個跟今天的這個財委會完全是脫鉤的這個很早就決定了那個開會通知很早就發出去了好 那我問你你事權的分配什麼時候能夠定案事權分配那一部分有各部會行政院也通令各部會去盤點所以我們會根據那個事權的盤點還有我們水平分配的這個方式我跟你講我現在一個很困難的地方在哪裡呢過去歷年來我 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3659.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3675.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
新莊的學校需要的建設經費我都向中央爭取那問題今年特別困難在哪裡就是因為這個一直不定所以它到底教育部有多少財源可以去使用變成在一個不確定的狀況很多事情都一直跌宕一直延下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3676.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3694.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以我跟委員報告就是現在就是雙管齊下現在我們積極在做那我們現在就是我們深信這一次這一次一定會在這個會期我套一句蘇貞昌院長講的話假案也好 疑案也好拖延案最不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3696.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3713.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
因為不定不定就什麼事情都沒有辦法定下來所以你聽懂這句話趕快提出來假案也好 疑案也好雖然本院處理事情比力量沒有在比道理會 這一次一定會提出來你們還是仍然要提出來一直拖延很多事情都沒有辦法確定下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3714.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3721.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
會爭取在這個會期一定會提出來反正希望能夠提出一個合理的版本我們謝謝吳秉瑞委員次長先請回接下來我們請賴氏寶委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3739.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3747.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請主席長 財政部阮市長好 請主席長 阮市長幾位長官委員好好 幾位長官好這個財化法是財政部在管還是主席總是在管 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3760.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3772.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
財務法是財政部在管嗎對 但是裡面有涉及到一些你們說昨天去找幾個地方政府的財政局長來討論結果給它感覺像過水 像糊弄一樣你說裡面營業額從20%變成8% |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3784.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3791.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
30%變成8%人口40.5%變成18%都減少 減少什麼地方增加這個好 我跟委員報告這個有時候這樣講可能不太精準人家已經這樣寫媒體這樣寫 你說你要澄清是不是讓我簡單說明一下不要說明 你就告訴我什麼項目增加你跟我講什麼項目增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3809.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3829.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們現在是這樣你不要浪費我時間你告訴我什麼項目增加你現在營業額的占比也降低人口也降低什麼增加你就回到這個你不要跟我講其他的我們現在是把指標就弄得更公平合理你告訴我哪一個項目增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3830.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3838.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
增加昨天這些部分當然就是每一個縣市都有不同的意見因為這個涉及到還沒有回答問題我已經講了營業額從30%降到8%這個字打錯了那人口40.5%降到18%什麼項目增加你告訴我你不要讓我有時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3850.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3867.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
比如說什麼項目增加因為昨天就這一步沒有達成共識但是我覺得有幾點很重要的你告訴我哪幾個項目增加你告訴我這一部分因為老實講沒有說所謂哪一個項目增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3871.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3873.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以光是這個就代表什麼意思代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
3888.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
3907.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
地方政府只是被告知中央只有走程序過水而已欺負地方政府就是這樣我現在告訴你才華娃你們提出來我們來講我們就堅持因為你要提出來開始打個布水平最少五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
3908.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
3926.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
五年啦 最少五年我們不會同意的我們只有說同意修16.3那個離島的解決馬祖的問題其他我們不會接受基本上不接受先跟你講這樣喔因為你看到現在為止什麼增加你也不講 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
3927.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
3955.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你也講不出來所以你現在只有心目中只有砍砍砍沒有增加不然你告訴我哪一項增加有沒有哪一項增加但是我跟委員報告昨天有很大的一個進展沒有進展啦有進展 有很大進展第一個我們就是說第一個要優先彌補這個財政收支差短這是第一個第二個我們搭配財源保障機制財源保障機制不是 你這個都叫我歐隆社徒那署長啊 我就被你很失望了真的 來 那個署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
3956.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
3979.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
陳署長你要不要講一下什麼地方項目增加有沒有項目增加的就像我們剛剛次長說的那個我們優先米平財政修正插船那這個部分就是佔了一大塊而且是真的就像剛剛委員您提的那個基礎的項目要先確立你都減少減少你沒有跟我講增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
3980.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
3983.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
減少變成營業額從30%變成8%人口40.5%變成18%什麼地方增加嘛你告訴我什麼地方增加沒有啊來我們看下一頁好啦你既然沒有的話我就告訴你你提的版本我們絕對反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
3998.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4016.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
你既然這樣講 我絕對反對反對到底 我們堅持現在版本除了16.3那個要改 很小的改以外其他我們全部反對就這樣 像你說 你不講我就反對不是 我跟委員報告不要講了 來 我們看一個 來現在來講 包括主計長那個統籌分配稅款因為你的主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4026.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4035.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你講的你最後一頁你寫的說藉此機制保障所有視線 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4038.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4057.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
縣市115年所獲得統總分數款一般補助款加計畫補助款三項加總比起114年只增不減這一句話是有問題的你已經講了九個縣市其實是低的不是增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4058.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4061.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以現在來講 你要講 哇讚度 哇讚喔 說給了哇大方咧 給了4100多億可是你沒有講 你拿回來2600多億啊所以你實際上只有給1500多億而已啊你實際上只有給1500多億啊但是你到處哇啦哇啦講 喔 我給了4000多億沒有啊 你只給1500多億啊三個加起來 來 我就問你一個問題 簡單的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4085.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4104.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這個以後是不是都如此都是同仇加一般加計劃一定不會比114年少夠縣市喔 夠縣市是 目前的規劃是這樣子所以目前我們有九個縣市是低於114年度嘛你已經補起來了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4104.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4127.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對 還沒 所以我們這裡沒有我們有一項均衡補助的一個我們就會把它添補起來但是我們現在就是說因為財化法裡面還有345億沒有分配那我們等到它分配之後它整個其實又是變動的那你345億有其他的委員說要拿去給什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4128.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4144.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以必須要看最後的一個決定立法院後面將來他還決定這345億的走向確定之後我們才能夠決定說到底差短是多少你這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4146.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4160.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我感謝你這句話這樣你可不可以再承諾一遍說只要你當主席長的一天這三項永遠不會少於我們院長有同意這一個布就是紙價不少 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4162.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4185.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這是行政院有承諾是這樣只要你當主計長的一天都是這樣子就三項只加不少所以等於是說各項補助都沒有減少三個加起來喔那如果這樣子的話我們提的案我可以提個案子就是計畫型補助款各縣市也只加不減 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4186.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4200.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
計劃是沒辦法 我坦白跟你說實際上執行起來是有困難的因為為什麼 他的政客 這每一個計劃他不見得都是 他執行任務完成之後他就會停止了 就不再做了那你說維持這個額度那這樣負責永遠橫幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4203.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4223.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那个穷者永恒也很穷那譬如说你计划型有的是譬如说捷运它金额很大那你现在我维持它还是维持这个额度将来对一些少数没有捷运的建设是不公平嘛所以你就砍计划型就乱砍一通捷运就乱砍一通啊不是乱砍一通 而是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4224.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4243.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
原來縣市一般的事項回歸給縣市自己去辦理那這樣他有更大的一個自主的權利財政部啊 財政部來 財政部你知道最近有那個加勒菸啊上市以後一天就下市你知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4245.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4260.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我常常報導裡面也看到了因為國建署那邊的問題這是你的事情喔研究管理法31條寫得很清楚你們管的主管單位就是財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4261.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4276.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
煙酒管理經過包裝出售製造業或者進口業者要直接接觸的容器上標示尼古丁及焦油的含量這次下市就是因為沒有標尼古丁跟焦油的含量對罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4279.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4308.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
改正以前不得繼續銷售第二個不符合的話 沒錄請問你有沒有沒錄根據法則有沒有沒錄了 沒收了沒錄 把那個加熱鹽沒收了聽不懂你聽不懂我們這個案子就是我這個案子就是你有沒有把他沒錄啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4309.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4332.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
有沒有把他沒收 沒錄聽不懂我們已經有他要求他下架回收啦因為他沒有標示那個離股定不是啦 你沒有標示你要沒錄違規的研究要沒錄就是你要沒收咧你有沒有把他收到財政部這裡面啊是 目前沒有沒有啊 那就回法啊因為他是第一次上次第一次就要啦 說是第一次 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4334.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4349.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
不符合本法法則五十條之二喔煙酒管理法五十條之二不符合本法標示規定的煙酒沒入違規的煙酒所以加熱源你要沒入啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4351.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4365.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
對 我跟委員報告就我們的這個菸酒管理法來講我們是分次來罰款如果最後它沒辦法達到我們要求的目標的話我們才會沒入 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4367.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4382.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
但是這個案子是針對因為它違反是陰害防治法我知道 這兩個法他們不管可是你們有法有工具可以用你要把它沒入我還跟你強調的你要改正以前不得繼續銷售然後50之二不符合的你要沒入 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4389.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4413.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
你们嫌贱的你们堵职啊你堵职啊 这个是那个末路是淹害防治法的规定我们的管理法是它有先期的规定它有先期先按处罚你也没有处罚我救你 我没有处罚我们这个会去处理处罚多少处罚多少现在因为是最近才发生的我们现在还在作业正常要罚多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4414.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4416.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你告訴我答案我就下去了正常一般罰多少因為現在還沒有開始開罰但是我們現在的標準是100萬以上到500萬以下100萬以上500萬以下連續 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4432.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4458.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
連續處罰可以連續處罰然後如果他還是沒有達到我們要求的話我們要求他就是要沒入什麼時候要沒入這個就要看他有沒有前面他有沒有按照我們的規定繳納不要忘了大家都以為大家都以為有關於菸的部分是屬於衛福部不是的喔研究管理法明擺的事業目的主管機關是財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4458.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4479.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
沒錯 但是我們財政部是負責菸酒的市場管理但是有關菸奶房子那一部分三四一票已經有了上面要標示尼古丁跟焦油的容含量如果沒有標你就要處罰啊然後最多可以沒入100萬到500萬的處罰開始處罰對 沒錯開始處罰囉我們會依法來處理盡快喔好 謝謝謝謝賴市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4489.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4491.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
接下來我們請郭國文委員質詢主席有請主席長跟阮次長請陳主席長還有阮次長 阮次長委員好主席長我們最近都在談財政收支方法的分配問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4516.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4537.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
大概都停留在過去的印象當中以為地方的財政非常的不好確實在整個歷史上整個地方的財政曾經發現過說地方補助款相對比較嚴苛負債比率也相對比較高如果從過往的短促的情形中101年的部分還短促到高達589億 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4539.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4548.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
可是隨著我們下放的財政資源越來越多的情況底下到2013年的時候已經變成是剩餘818億而這來與去之間加總起來總共有1407億的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4556.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4571.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那這裡頭還是可以看到相關的數字那之所以中央可以溢出那麼多主要是國稅成長國稅成長了191%可是相對地方稅來說25年來大概只有成長大約28%三成不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4572.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4590.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那即便我們授權給他地方稅法通則的情況底下新的稅源也相對有限所以幾乎都是依賴中央在自有財源不足的情況底下那曾經還有一度你去看一看我們曾經還有一度不只這一個那個整個當初的財政這個赤字之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4591.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4618.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
還有包括當初為了解決地方的負債的問題因為以前常常這個發布所謂的地方財政警戒中對不對最近幾乎這個中都沒有在想了為什麼沒有在想原來把這個信用卡額度原來叫提高總數增加的這個2%之多呢有一點是下放給地方的 對不對下放給地方從8%變9.4%也就是一年可以增加800多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4619.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4641.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
原来以为这个信用卡增加之后以地方政府以前的那个习惯可能会刷爆但是事实上没有刷爆它不但没有刷爆而且这个负债还降低所有的这个比例那个债务中的比例越来越减少而且从原来的负债总比的5.56降到2.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4644.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4673.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
金额也降了大约是超过2000亿之多负债轻度的现市低于60%以下的从8个现市增加到20个现市目前比较严重的就只有苗栗跟宜兰而已对不对所以这种情况底下地方的财政不用从这个负债的角度来看或者从这个剩余的数字来看基本上已经大幅改善了对不对如果这种情况底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4674.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4695.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
部長 主席長主要是經濟好轉跟中央下放很多資源那如果說我們整個財政收支方法明年新版的開始之後地方已經這麼剩餘已經這麼多了將來如何使用那以及須不需要擬定計畫申請還是自由讓它發揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4696.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4725.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所以這個部分因為我們本身除了統籌分配稅款4165下放之外所以它佔了114年幾乎達到9成然後它又指定那個一般性補助款要維持2501所以兩個加起來就將近15%下放但是事前並沒有下放那事前的部分有一部分其實以前是承接省政府原來11%的業務但是這個部分都必須要透過修法才有 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4725.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4748.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
市权没有下放的情况底下那以往政府实在是补助每年大概补助5000亿如果明年的新版的话你有没有算过本席稍微算了一下中央给地方的裁员会高达一兆1650亿之多让他自由挥霍那中央政府不是变成一个代收代付的机构吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4749.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4775.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以我们要把它转换一个形态就是说它用计划型来引导引导地方走向这方面用什么方式引导用计划型的一个计划来做引导所以说它这也不是纯粹的代收代付还会有一个计划型的引导是 所以一般性补助我们着重在一般性补助要计划型引导经常性的或者是比较普及性的然后基本建设的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4775.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4783.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那计划型补助也是有引导但是计划型比较大型的比较重大的那统筹分配款有办法吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4784.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4809.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
统筹分配款这个部分也是有所以现在新的财务法里面他有对基本支出他有图向去列出来然后第二个他把他的财政收支差短把它列在统筹分配税里面然后直接来解决而不是透过一般性补助来做结束是 我是说你如果一个计划性的引导 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4810.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4836.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
不至於錢亂花否則的話依照現在事權的一個限制人員編制沒有增加他到時候就是變成發紅包比賽所以我是覺得組委長我建議你事先要有一個計畫性引導事後我們應該要有一個類似地方財政警戒中的概念警戒中的概念不是以前的負債多少把它呈現出來而是有哪些縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4839.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
4865.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
過度自由發揮以至於有違反財政治理之餘主計總署跟審計部應該有事後的一個規範這個有效所以這個部分跟委員報告新的財務法裡面就針對這個有著所在設計所以它有一個一般性的一個基本財政支出的項目然後有一個收入之後它兩個如果有財政支出的差短透過統總分配稅來彌補 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
4867.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
4894.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
對 主席長我現在要跟您說的是說把地方過去的警戒中的概念不是只有數字而已而接下來它是怎麼使用做一個調整做必要的做事後一個公佈為什麼 為什麼因為地方政府都要連任你如果亂花錢亂花紅包只為了選票要接受社會的監督你拿了這麼多錢拿了一兆一千多億你同不同意本席把這個事後的一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
4897.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
4917.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
审计的概念把它公布弄一个方式来做一个规范事前计划引导嘛那如果它不照你计划呢对不对 对不对可不可以我们现在国防安委已经就针对各县市的和中央的一个事前在整个重新再做检讨那是另外啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
4918.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
4931.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
然后检讨之后他会变成是说以考核或督导的方式来让他进行我意思说考核跟督导之后不够不要把他评审内部作业必要的时候公开可不可以可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
4932.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
4946.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
应该要公开应该要公开另外一个部分你看你整个这个补助款增加了这个结构上面挤压到什么挤压到计划型补助你明年的计划型补助剩下308亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
4948.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
4975.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
對不對 本來2954現在當到308少了2646那像這種情況底下所有今天最近財政部昨天有討論了大概從一個橫向的配置的部分大家都放在平衡的部分已經剩下八個指標 對不對但是現階段所有的這個狀況已經減少那你要怎麼調劑營需你是不是要舉債 明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
4978.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
4989.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
已经举债4000亿了我们目前举债是4000年同特别预算1008亿的话是4000亿总预算是3000亿你举债也是举现在特别预算有计划型的补助就剩下308亿吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
4991.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5011.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
对 现在是我们有一个财政均衡的一个项目我们对于九个县市它现在低于114年度我们会给予补足 只增不减你现在来了 问题来了现在你308年你很难调节银靴这是第一个问题第二个你刚刚一直讲市权的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5012.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5025.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
事权的部分你现在说国务发会有在做处理那有要提出类似像地方制度法其他相关的法来重新规划事权的一个分工吗有没有这个部分有没有修法的打算 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5025.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5046.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
这个部分其实我一般性补助包括计划性补助都是属于地方印办的事项只是我中央补助而已所以这个部分有一些项目如果回归给地方来办理然后由他的统筹分配税款来资印这个部分就回归真正回归地方自治的一个方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5047.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5069.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
对 回归如果能够回归地方制度是回归啦但是以到目前为止事权能需要调整嘛你不是一直强调吗那事权调整有没有牵扯到修法的部分那有牵扯到修法有没有打算要修法有没有打算要修法像我们财法法要年底要提出来你事权的一个重新划分也要面对啊没有错 这个部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5071.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5097.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我们事权的一个修法的部分这个涉及到比如说有一些作用法比如说内政部的还有一些卫福部的一些相关的劳健保这些等等那这些谁在统筹是国化会在统筹国化会在统筹那统筹的情况底下有没有一个时间点钱都已经要发下去了有 他会搭配他整个近日我们一直都很今年年底可以提出修法吗这个部还是必须要尊重国化会他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5097.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5113.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
你要督促在主机的部分你要去思考这个问题财政部都已经要提出修法了这个部分是副院长亲自在督导所以这个部分应该要同步进行副院长很忙又要讨论这个关税的谈判副院长本身自己在亲自督导 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5113.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5141.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
对 所以说这个应该要有时间点要match对不对 要同步应该 应该年底提出来而更何况我还要问一下阮次主席长稍微休息一下阮次你们昨天提了一个横向那最深水区的部分权重的部分还没处理那是不是代表还要再开一次会还是权重的部分就中央自行决定因为那一部分的确各地方政府因为涉及到它分配的金额的大小所以那一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5141.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5169.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
很难达到共识很难达到共识那怎么办但是我们会尽量用最公平合理的方式就是由中央自行判断年底以前完成这是一个方式会设计一个方式然后年底以前送法案过来但是我们也不放弃沟通的机会不放 同时沟通同时拟定一个方式出来权重你自己要拿出一个版本中央还是要负责谈不拢你就是要中央自己做决定不然你年底的版本怎么出来这是第一第二的部分你要面对一个国民党的版本现在已经近负二度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5171.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5198.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
你等到年底的时候他熊熊给你送去再表决一次那你来得及吗你有算过吗你有去沟通吗你有去沟通吗刚才委员也指教就是说我们就是有关于适选的盘对 我现在给你来盘修法如果修法它又如法炮制的时候你应该去跟国民党等等沟通一下因为毕竟他们现在多数嘛是不是能够有 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5199.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5220.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
大家共同討論他現在進了五金服務樂隊連委員會都沒有辦法討論但是我們現在前提就要先有一個修法案對 你現在一個版本但是你就今天要講說請他stand by一下不要這麼急那以前我們有提出法案讓人走那現在我們已經提出法案了可是他又不等你會不會造成這種結果有沒有可能 你有沒有評估過 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5222.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5241.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
这是一个真实现实对 这个是没有错但是在沟通之前我们总是有自己的版本出来这样才能够有一个聚焦才能够沟通不好意思 主席你再给我一分钟就好我最后再问一下主记长你这个一定要去沟通 阮次 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5242.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5263.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
你要去沟通好不好另外一个部分那个现阶段整个这一个计划型补助再加上所谓的这个统筹分配款一增一减或一减一增的情况底下有些县市在统筹分配款喝到汤但是在计划型补助的时候少了肉总共有几个县市有九个县市 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5265.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5292.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
主席长 你看剩下这九个县市当中你所剩不多308亿的这一个计划性补助是不是应该把这几个县市为优先是 我们这个部分会列为优先所以我们就是说跟114年度比较指正不减所以它一定是维持住114年度的一个额度所以这个部分的缺少的一个部分我们会用那个均衡补助的部分来给予谜评 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5292.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5321.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
如果尽量还是要调剂营需的功能的情况底下308还是非常有限你有没有可能再举借有没有可能再举债应该不用这个部分我们大概是有把它算一下它的一个差短的数以这边为优先以九个县市为优先六都当中唯一受害的就是台南麻烦你注意一下谢谢 谢谢主席长谢谢阮次 谢谢主席好 谢谢郭国文委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5323.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5325.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
接下來我們請賴會員委員質詢主席有請主計總長跟蘭次長蘭部長委員好是 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5345.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5369.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
主席總長跟兩位早安今天本席就修法的部分中央對地方補助的方式的調整提出幾點的關心跟建議是在這裡我想先請教一下次長就是卓院長他有宣誓說要提出才化法才化法的才化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5374.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5389.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
要提出財化法的二修的版本行政院有沒有具體的一個時間表有沒有對 財化法二修基本上我們是希望在這個會期可以提出來在什麼時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5391.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5415.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
如果可以的話就盡量在11月底之前如果可以的話如果可以的話我們盡量還有如果不可以的話我們最慢的底線會在什麼時候因為這個要配合行政院的政策所以我沒辦法決定說什麼時候提當然 行政院也會參考我們財政部的整體的一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5416.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5432.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
基本上我們當然院裡面有院的想法基本上我們是希望就能夠盡量在11月底前可以提所以說修法的一個方向跟範圍其實我們現在也不斷的就是在研擬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5433.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5454.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
對 我們積極在研擬 積極在研擬事實上我們像昨天我們有開會就水平那部分就跟地方政府再進一步溝通那另外市權那部分也透過國發會還有各部會那麼去做盤整所以我們希望就根據這些資料我們會擬出一個公平合理可長可久的一個修正草案出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5454.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5482.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
可長可久好 次長我先再請教你一個問題就是針對的346億沒有辦法分配給地方政府的這一些條文會不會優先修正這個立法院的事情真的我在這邊很難回答這個問題有可能你們有沒有建議有沒有建議說這個就我們財政部的立場或者行政部的立場我們覺得財化法不只是那個計算公式的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5483.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5504.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我覺得最重要的就是我們的垂直或水平分配有很多不公平合理的地方但是我想委員這一部分都很清楚我也不要再重複所以我們所院長也一再強調就是說我們財化法不只是修公式而是要全盤的修正那我們現在就朝全盤修正的方向去努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5505.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5520.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
朝著前盤的修正的方向市長謝謝接著我再請教主計總長財化法會朝著前面修法的一個方式針對的一般性補助款是不是會再修一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5522.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5541.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
會也會再修一次因為為什麼我光是如果財力級距他有修改改變之後我就必須相關的一個一般性補助他也必須要修正包括財力級距也都必須要做修正是好那在這個問題我在特別因為之前有幾個委員也提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5552.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5578.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那中央跟地方政府的整体的税收的分配那这个你刚才也有回答了另外一个委员在早期的话我们是大概是75那个中央是75地方是25那现在如果这个像现在新的财务法跟那个一般性的那个补助办法的话那我们回到60比40就像你们昨天跟地方政府的一个沟通 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5579.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5605.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我看了那个资料是讲到了就是说不管是桃园不管是台北是新北都非常的乐意因为他们分到了很多的钱可是英宁跟台东都不愿意为什么他们分配少了分配少了主席总长你来自于台南我想用台南的一个经验告诉你是就是说中央的财政会不会失衡那地方就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5607.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5620.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
政府是不是拿到了錢那是不是可以平衡我簡單地用一個台南的例子給你看那台南的例子裡頭我們看到了就是說台南在這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5621.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5640.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
他多拿了100 他分配到了174億可是他其實要負擔的是253億他還不足79億因為他的整體的不管是他的老榮津貼 他的榮寶還有就是他的勞健寶最重要的就是我們有八所國立學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5641.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5656.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
巴手國立學校會吃掉我們非常多的一個經費的預算那像這樣子的話它在114年的這個比例還減少了37億那你想台南市怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5658.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5672.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我跟委員報告 八所國立高中職他今年是沒有減的他是照以往的補助所以這個會 今年不會減對 今年沒有減這個部分如果要減也必須要循序循序這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5673.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5687.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
但是一般性補助和計劃型補助它是有減少但是我們這個行政院它也有說明就是說針對目前來講九個縣市比去年短少的這個部分它會把它來彌平 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5689.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5711.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
只多不少所以這個部分等於是說我如果按照114年計劃的一些相關的補助我通通補給你了所以一般你自己本身應該要做的項目就應該要自己去做去確定說你到底要辦理什麼項目所以就是說我會補到114年額度相同的一個計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5712.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5731.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
到114年沒有問題可是到115年的話會不會產生問題你如何去115年會照114年度的額度去補譬如說台南市如果缺73這樣的部分它就會比114年度少73那就會補73這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5733.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5748.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
就会把它补齐是的所以到目前为止到115还能就是有一个比较正常的一个那个就是分配的方式是所以维持三项它只增不减 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5749.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5764.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
只是院长有亲口承诺答应的事情这个部分等于是说我都维持114年各项计划的一个金额给你但是你要不要做那要由地方去自主但是我们有很多是属于 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5765.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5784.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
中央必須引導譬如說0到6歲的一個計畫所以我們就是把它在一般性補助裡面和計畫型裡面切割之後也是把它列出來就是列為屬於經常性普及性或者是經常建設的一個部分相關經費列在一般性補助裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5785.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5800.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那我可不可以這樣子解釋就是說如果一般性跟計劃型的一個補助在昨天就是這九個分配比較少的一個縣市他們會得到比較多的一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
5800.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
5815.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
他會跟去年一樣所以我會在一般性補助那他會跟去年一樣萬一我去年我沒有提出來新的一個計畫的話在未來這九個縣市他可能很難去執行到一些新的計畫那怎麼辦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
5816.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
5837.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
但是他一個新的計畫的部分這九個縣新的計畫的部分他自己必須要在項目裡面去做調整項目去做調整那所以這樣子講的話就是說如果我在去年沒有我地方政府沒有提出新的一個計畫型的那個計畫提上來那我在未來這兩年我可能都沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
5838.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
5867.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
沒有跟委員報告你說項目調整那是舊的嗎對新的財劃法已經在規劃所以這個財劃法裡面他就會把一般性的一個基本支出規劃在財劃法裡面包括收入支出然後整個之後他如果有差短他就會透過財劃法裡面統籌分配稅來做彌補那彌補之後其他所增加的財源就是作為他本身本身其他的一個項目的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
5868.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
5893.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
一個使用那所以這部分呢在談到另外您談到的就是說如果說別的人都成長那我這九個縣市沒有成長所以我們也要考慮說他有沒有說平均成長的一個機會我們也要給他考慮所以如果說他如果在地方的話地方的話他有認真的去規劃的時候我們還是會在中央還是會再補貼他 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
5896.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
5916.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
考慮給他成長的一個機會那這樣子的話就是說你事前的一個計畫的一個引導然後事後就是說我們也希望就是說這個大家在那個花紅包在撒幣你看新竹市要多花5000然後桃園說他可以多花1.5萬這個大家請可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
5920.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
5946.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以如果你不用審計的一個態度在事後去公開他在整體的一個施政他的成績的話那這個會變成我們整個社會就非常的亂所以你該補貼的你沒有補貼那窮的就像你剛講的窮的更窮有錢的更有錢那以後大家都不住在南部了大家都往北部移那事實上是不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
5948.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
5963.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那這樣子政府怎麼做到了公平正義呢是 我們盡量是說希望要讓政府有均衡整個台灣還有均衡照顧各個國民的一個能力好 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
5965.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
5981.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
跟大家加油 因為我想這個財化法這個統戰火候分配 把我們大家真的是搞得重新進入到一個新的戰國時代那我們也希望把政策就是引導得更好謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝賴慧媛委員好 接下來請李燕秀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
5998.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6003.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我是不是可以請主席長跟阮政次好 請主席長跟阮政次委員好 主席長好《財化法》含了25年無論是藍綠當縣市首長大家都認為應該調整整個統籌的部分各縣市從 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6023.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6046.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
上一次修正的版本其實各縣市都有增加我們今天回過來討論其實就是對於一般性的補助款對於各縣市的金額對於各縣市的衝擊跟影響包括前幾位委員也質詢了大家都關注關心未來你所謂的普及性經常性基本建設或維運的性質或財政均衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6046.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6072.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你公布了這幾個在今年的8月29公布了新的一個補助辦法這個補助辦法看起來文字好像寫得很清楚但是語意上到底是什麼意思普及性經常性什麼叫基本建設這個就會讓外界有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6073.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6095.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
模糊想像的空間我爭取這項到底會不會有比照過去長期我們用的是一個財政的集聚很清楚財政集聚可以用在教文在在攝服那就非常非常的清楚大家都知道大概什麼事情可以用那畢竟縣市政府還有地方議會在做把關審查我相信都 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6095.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6125.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
应该不至于滥用了那原则上就是因为你这一次写的新的补助办法让外界批评担心无论蓝绿各县市你看刚刚赖会员也在担心说那这个我们会不会有无论是外界会认为说未来有可能会变成是论功行赏或者笼络某些县市或者甚至是党同伐异的一个问题点在这个也就是各县市看到新的补助办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6125.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6142.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
難免因為你寫得不夠清楚會讓外界有這樣子的擔心以台北市為例在今年9月13號行政院開過記者會之後你們也很明確的說未來在公共建設會受到衝擊的包括捷運的南北環段還有包括合理的教師的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6144.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6160.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
編制的緣額本來要補助教師再多請幾位老師還有包括學生的營養午餐還有學校的冷氣的汰換還有電費還有身心障礙教育的補助費校園的改善補助費還有無障礙環境的補助學校運動團隊的補助等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6162.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6178.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
这个就是以台北市为例在新的补助办法之后会受到冲击的部分也就是说从民众各县市可能会有这样的问题在交通的权益行人的安全包括孩子的教育等等现在外界都会认为说 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6179.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6197.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
因为一般性的补助款的新的办法之后后续会变成行政院斗争的人质各县市政府都可能会发生这样的状况以台北市为例原来计划型的补助原来合订的金额是31.92亿后来就删减了12.4亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6200.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6213.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
減幅達到將近38.88%所以包括國中國小冷氣144所學校冷氣的汰換電費還有三所學校校舍的改建還有學校的資訊電腦等等都會受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6217.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6243.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那中央就说你们过来你们要自己编所以主席长正是我们上次在财务法修正的期间财政部当时人认识有在同一个地点同样的位置你有告诉他说我们在去年8月1号跟9月4号我们也邀请了地方开了两次会对不对你说财务法三如通过之后但是在财务法三如通过之后 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6244.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6251.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
你們過去只開兩次會在今年二月之前開過兩次會二月之後你們就提出復議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6253.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6279.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這麼重大的一個案子對中央也好你們覺得中央在垂直分配或地方的水平分配你們都認為會受到衝擊但只開了兩次會那後面就提出復議但是人證是在同樣地點你說希望中央跟地方大家好好開會提出穩健的意見之後就完全沒有聲音了開會兩次之後完全沒有再溝通了直到今年6月3號 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6281.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6288.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
主席處對於新的一般性的補助辦法你是在6月3號提出修正對不對主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6291.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6315.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們在114年6月3號徵詢各縣市的意見妳幾天要叫他們收回意見妳給幾天的時間我們在8月12號又召開一次會議我只問妳 妳8月3號預告新的補助辦法之前我不知道妳真的一般新的補助妳有沒有跟地方溝通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6316.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6338.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我不知道你有没有你这个办法公告预告你给几天的时间我们陆续有召开你不要跟我讲陆续有几天你告诉我9月13你不要跟我讲9月13已经是已经是公告你9月3号你6月3号你给三天的时间你给三天的时间要提出意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6339.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6364.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
然後就結束了那8月29日就是正式發布我們看一下過去幾次依照一般的行政法預告的時間任何一個行政今年補助辦法預告的時間跟修正發布的時間最起碼都有一個月按照行政院的一些相關的規則跟辦法我們所有的行政程序法154條 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6368.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6386.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
最起碼重要的事項都要公告將近起碼21天一個月甚至三個月有我翻了一下你過去的例子也都最起碼有一兩個月甚至三個月我要請問主計長這麼重要的案子如果是穩健要跟地方溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6388.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6391.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
有需要黑箱作業有需要偷偷摸摸的嗎你一個一般補助辦法需要公告給全國各縣市政府知道這攸關到民眾的相關的權益還有地方議會的審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6406.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6426.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這一個補助辦法有這麼見不得人需要偷偷摸摸的嗎三天只告訴他我公告我三天就收了8月29你已經是公告的結果我都還沒問你說各地方意見給你是什麼那你有沒有修改過有沒有因為地方的意見修改過我要看所有的資料但是就光一個補助辦法你是偷偷摸摸的公告主席長這麼重要的一個補助辦法有需要偷偷摸摸嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6436.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6441.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們是沒有偷偷摸我們是主要都有召開三天之後就收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6444.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6472.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以我們本身在8月14號又召開相關的會議那你為什麼不在公告期間按照道理說我們都知道一個法規的公佈預告我們就是要收集地方的民意地方的意見不管是各部會你為什麼不在公告期間好好的再找大家來溝通協調公告期間都過了公告之後才收了地方的意見在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6473.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6498.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
主席長我覺得對於這個公告來說我不知道為什麼需要偷偷摸摸這一個公告這麼見不得人這個背後到底有沒有正式操作在裡頭主席長我覺得真的如果按照阮氏講的就是說我們要穩健的收集地方的意見我覺得這個背後在我看來光是這個預告就已經充滿了政治算計那最後一個我要再問你跟委員說米妮下來我要請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6501.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6525.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
因為你現在的辦法已經公告了你現在財務法修正案我們現在已經十月下旬了那當然我們希望12月31號之前新的版本會送進來立法院那包括事權當然事權我覺得需要交代清楚你有辦法在12月31號之前會一併包括把事權的部分地質法的修法一併會送進來嗎這個是誰要回應我 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6530.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6542.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
跟委員報告那基本上就是管理財務法的修正再修正案再修正案這一部分我們現在正在努力就是包括12月31號之前會送進來嗎我們在努力那後面地方政府預算怎麼編 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6549.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6567.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為我今天只想要兩個重點我覺得這個補助辦法是黑箱作業我不同意這樣的做法因為按照過去我們立院是有你們送進來的話我們是可以退回的我不知道這個補助辦法有什麼見不得人這個是我要跟主計長講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6569.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6592.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好好溫健的溝通了解地方上的聲音這是第一點第二點12月31號之前你剛剛都沒有把握是不是12月31號包括市權的調整是不是都可以好好你們也沒開過幾次會如果這件事這麼重要大罷免期間有很多的時間從今年法案通過之後有將近半年你開個十次會議都不為過 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6594.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6613.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們跟委員報告我們就我們這個才化法這一部分我們就是從上一次通過以後修法通過以後我們開了四次會徵詢這個地方政府的意見那昨天又開了一次會那昨天其實有進一步這麼晚才開 再開一次會 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6615.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6637.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們現在昨天的會議其實有很大的進展比如說這有關的分配的架構比如說一下我們要優先彌補財政收支差短第二個要確保他的財源保障還有相關的指標我要提醒你們你們這一次公布的草案也好沒有跟地方充分溝通我覺得你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6638.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6658.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
在大罷免之後賴總統才說施政的優先順序要去做調整以人民為優先但是光從這個公佈的草案跟辦法的時間點還有這個公佈的內容有太多不明確性我都覺得背後實在是還有太多的政治算計我只能說我個人覺得非常的遺憾再來議會地方議會你們這種補助辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6662.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6682.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
地方都不確定到底我送進來的一般性的補助款能不能拿得到地方議會也會來不及審查我都不知道這對於未來地方議會的審查把關會受到什麼樣的衝擊因為你這個內容實在有太多的不明確性以前你就直接撥給地方他知道他的財政級距是多少可以拿到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6682.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6700.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他自己要去編社福他自己要去編教育他自己要去編基礎建設他都可以好好的編但是現在就是各縣市送進來我愛給誰就給誰我喜歡誰就給誰這實在有太多的不明確性跟空間讓外界會覺得行政院背後又在做政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6701.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6725.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們有三點說明第一個就是說我們在九十月十七有召開整個一個說明補助的一個項目那第二個這個部分補助辦法他是沒有涉及到人民的權利義務的部分所以不需要預告第三個就是說我們也保證就是說所有的縣市他所受到他的補助款都是比一百一十四年只增不減所以他一百一十四年度所有的計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6727.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6733.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
政府做的每一件事情都跟人民的權益有關係按照行政程序法第154條 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6736.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6759.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
幾乎所有的法案其實都要有一個預告的時間最起碼是一個月以上緊急的21天所有的政府做每一件事情都跟人民息息關係不要告訴我說跟人民權益沒有關係我剛剛講的這些包括學生的冷氣教師合理的員額編制一向跟孩子沒有關係跟人民沒有關係不要睜眼說瞎話謝謝李燕學委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6763.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6769.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
接下來我們請李坤誒那個李坤誠先來請李坤誠委員來 謝謝謝謝主席我們請陳主席長好 請主席長然後阮次長然後國庫署的陳署長好 陳署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6789.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
6810.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
主席張浩我先問一下次長好了因為這個是昨天才開會昨天我們是第四次邀集地方政府會商統籌稅款的分配方式我剛剛有聽次長說是有共識的地方那當然一定也有歧異的地方歧異的地方在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
6811.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
6831.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
最主要就是有關那個就是指標的那個權重的問題指標權重因為權重會直接涉及到他分配的金額比如說台北市跟這個比如像這個南部的縣市或者是嘉義縣等等所以指標權重就是變成說六度跟非六度之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
6833.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
6847.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
對 大家會要求會不一樣對 就不一樣所以那一部分是大家有比較多的意見其他的大部分都已經大家大部分都能夠認同但是這個就滿大的意見了因為如果說我們要畫我們有這個新版裁判法出來的話這個其實就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
6848.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
6869.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
要尋求共識裡面這個最大的差異點在這邊也可能是最後擺不平的地方那請教一下次長那在這個修財化法我剛有聽希望說在11月底之前能夠售出來我們爭取我們現在如果要做出來是其實我覺得是溝通的問題如果是溝通那我們還會再找地方政府再來一次開會嗎還是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
6871.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
6897.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
再開到昨天就差不多了我們是這樣子就是說如果可以的話當然我們不放棄跟地方政府再進一步溝通但是如果是還是同樣的溝通的結果還是一樣的話可能我們就是會按照我們就是認為最合理最公平的方式那麼做一個決定那當然財政部認為說昨天有一些有共識的地方不過我看今天媒體有寫說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
6899.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
6925.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
行政院版的財劃法 財政部挨自說自話這個我覺得應該意思就是說沒有去做好溝通然後在溝通的過程當中當然我們自己一定會有版本我們拿著我們版本來做溝通不過就像次長所講的就是說可能六都跟非六都大家對於這個指標會有不同的意見跟看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
6926.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
6940.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那我再請教一下這個次長下一張我們來看一下修法前後水平分配指標的對照那比如說像這個營利事業所得稅修法前是50%現在降到30%我現在講說就是今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
6942.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
6967.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
去年底通過這個才化法就是變成30%然後人口的權重增加到45%增加很多那當然會造成一些問題比如說就會變成說人口比較多的或是說營利事業所的稅稅收比較多的等等可能會造成越富的越富 越窮的越窮 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
6968.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
6988.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這是去年修法的一些問題我們再看下一張這個就是剛剛的那一張30%是營利事業所得稅等等加起來100%我想請教一下次長在討論的過程當中這就是水平分配了水平分配的行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
6990.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7015.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
在這個指標裡面有做什麼樣的一些調整一定是有多有少的啦因為我剛剛聽有委員講說你增加在哪裡那一個餅就這樣子嘛一定有的有少 一定有的有增加嘛那少在哪裡 增加在哪裡我們現在是這樣因為現行的就是才通過的這個版本裡面委員很清楚就是說它的指標過度集中在人口跟營利稅所的額嘛佔了75%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7016.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7042.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
就是造成城鄉之間的差距對 我剛才那個修法後的那個所以我們就是把指標那一部分做了比較通盤的一個檢討比如說像財政努力我們就是把它分成就是盈利稅所得額還有財產稅的努力還有非稅收入三項指標那另外一個大家比較關切的你說財政努力現在佔幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7045.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7067.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們看一下那個圓餅圖好了另外基本關切比較多的就是基本建設需求基本建設需求那部分我們就分成五大項就是一個土地面積還有人口數還有工業人口我們把工業人口拉進去農林漁牧人口的結構還有就是農林漁牧的產值這五項的指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7072.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7091.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那它比重大概是占多少現在土地面積土地面積是占多少土地面積的話占的是百分之三十占三十趴那人口指標你說你有在分你有分任一個工業人口 農林營運人口是不是對 就是人口數那它的比重呢比重的話人口數是占百分之三十 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7092.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7120.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那工業人口是占20%那農林榆木人口是占10%然後農林榆木產值是10%也就是說讓我們這是基本建設這方面就對了對那我們希望就是說城鄉之間能夠更加的平衡而且這個比如說像土地面積像有些地方土地面積它的比如說它的種類不一樣比如說像林業用地林業用地我們那我知道那現在就是說那盈利事業所的稅現在從30%降到20% |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7123.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7127.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對 是不是 是然後那個財稅的成長率財產稅的努力現在佔多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7132.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7156.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
財政努力這個是所謂占多少是哪一部分的占多少就是在我剛才這個圓餅圖裡面就是財產稅的努力那一部分就是總權重是占財政努力的占比是全部加起來財產稅努力是占起來是一個是15%就是激增努力度 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7157.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7186.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那另外一個財產稅成長率的未續評分法這個占50%所以基本上我們是希望就是說能夠真正做到讓地方政府能夠努力去開拓他的財源好 結論你再給我一下那我就請教次長如果按照你們去跟地方政府溝通的這一個版本來講的話那六度跟非六度會呈現什麼樣的跟過去財務法不一樣的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7187.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7211.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
當然這樣子的話 六都是會稍微有一點稍微收斂減少幅度大概多大幅度可能我這個可能還在看你再整理一下但是基本上那個方向就是說比較發達的這些那部分會稍微往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7211.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7232.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
六度會往下降就對了所以往下降不一定是六度所以比較工商發達或者人口比如說像還有像哪一些稍微往下降但是屬於比較這個原來比較偏鄉的那一部分會因為它收支差短會比較大所以慢慢的它就會拉上來我們希望做到做到就是能夠公平合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7232.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7251.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
因為財化法上基本的原則就是就是條基因素 這個我知道這個原則我知道那我例子是說大家在爭執的在炒裂放的例子是說那我本來可能拿得比較多現在變拿得比較少了所以這個問題就在這裡但是也有本來拿得比較少變拿得比較多了有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7252.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7275.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
有本來拿得比較少 現在變得拿得比較多的有吧 不可能全部大家都減少吧因為如果大家都減少的話那大家就說那中央錢又拿走了 這樣也不合理不會 所以一定有的有減少那一定也有增加對不對那增加的多不多增加的限制多不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7276.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7304.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
增加的啦增加的怎麼樣現世多不多現在還沒有因為還整個那個最後的那個權重還沒有確定你不能秀出來這個法就是說讓這一個原本這個增加的減少那他們一定會有怨言但是原本減少的如果增加了那他們也會覺得說那這樣子對他們有利我覺得你就是要去做一個平衡那你如果全部都減少的話那當然這個法一定過不了的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7304.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7329.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
但是我跟委員報告我們還有一個財源保障機制也就是剛才我們主席長一直講的只增不減每一個縣市雖然是說我們現在因為現在是分別太不平均我們雖然有些縣市把它降下來但是還是比過去還是增不減最後一定會增加的因為我們統籌分配款最後現在是八千多億了對不對增加快一倍所以一定會增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7330.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7353.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
還是會增加所以我們還是保障只生不檢而且我們還有一個財源保障機制就不低於那個基準的原來分配的財源有一個保障的機制我這個跟次長講就是說你如果要送這個財務法出來你要去說服說服就是說這個原本如果比較富裕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7354.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7370.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
他們所減少的 希望說能夠均衡其他拿了比較少的縣市所以他們要增加如果他們也沒有增加的話那當然也都不會通過的我請教一下主席長因為計算公式分母計算公式錯了現在有345億沒辦法分配這345億沒辦法分配的話那現在怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7381.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7390.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
因为这个是行政院没办法说没办法解决 所谓修法那这345亿可以做其他的用途吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7392.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7416.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這個部分要看修好的一個結果就是說它只能用在這個統籌分配款還是可以用在其他的用途裡面因為現在財政部這個要財政部來回答這個部分就是財政部表示這個部分它也沒辦法使用所以它只能留著它也沒辦法擅自分配是這樣所以除非新的法律有說這個部分是要怎麼分配這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7417.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7422.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那我們今天可不可以提出一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7453.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7464.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府局長 市長 官員會長工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請主席長跟財政部阮次長請主席長還有我們阮次長委員好主席長好 次長好有沒有覺得今天冷清清的是因為天氣冷還是因為下雨 您覺得呢還是因為今天我們討論的是財化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7480.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7505.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
主席你覺得呢 如果今天我們討論一萬元怎麼領 跟誰領 怎麼花 政府還要補貼你覺得會不會情況不一樣好像不好答 其實是這樣子就像公司 員工只要有拿到薪水 他其實他不會問他不會去關心說公司的財務 會計怎麼調度他只關心我薪水是按時發 是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7507.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7535.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以市長昨天財政部是不是召開各地方的財政主管來討論財政收支劃分法熱不熱烈非常熱烈非常熱烈都是管財務的人都是財政系統但是一般不是財政系統不曉得你們在搞什麼來我先問一下地方補助款不低於去年還創新高這新聞財政部去年今年昨天看了那個會是不是昨天的新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7536.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7542.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
新聞照片你們要提行政院版的裁判法修法對不對是 那這邊還提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7544.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7568.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
保障統籌分配稅款跟一般應付款不低於今年的規模就是7177億但是要怎麼樣滿足基準的財政收支短差納入財政的努力機制就是貢獻機制還要考量到基本建設需求到時分配的方法會調整回來地方政府多表認同調整回來是他們的錢會變多還變少 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7570.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7597.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
有些多 當然有些會有點少多的當然是認同 少的也認同因為指標一動以後一定是因為那個是施工室來 我們來跟兩位探討一下這是憲法裡面中央跟地方的事權劃分兩位主席長跟次長是不是同意先討論錢怎麼分配之前先討論事權怎麼分 對不對同意嘛 同意就點頭或大聲說大聲說我比較聽得到 是好 我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7598.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7620.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
憲法第107到110第107說哪些是中央做的對不對108 109哪些是談到是省可以交給省做或省可以交給縣市做對不對然後110是談什麼縣市級的要做是這些是不是這樣子是好 請要一下農林農林這個是屬於中央可以交給地方去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7622.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7644.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
剛剛傳出台中疑似發現非洲豬瘟農業部緊急召開記者會但是媒體有在報導說因為今年這個農業部宣導防疫的經費被大砍所以會不會因此而在防疫宣導上有漏洞那請問一下像防疫這個事情是屬於中央的還是屬於地方的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7646.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7666.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
因為中央和地方都有啦都有那中央的預算被砍了那地方那些出現漏洞那誰要負責很難講對不對不好講嘛現在還沒有調查清楚往下看來我們看看那未來如果我們現在的社福支出我們有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7667.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7695.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
有福利對不對我們這裡看到的你這裡寫我們福利照顧跟社會安全340億對不對這你在報告裡面寫的這是關於115年度一般性補助款2500億當中福利照顧跟社會安全佔了340億照顧協助弱勢保留的社會福利經費406億我請教一下這可能要請教主席長哪些是這些福利照顧社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7696.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7717.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
安全是中央還是地方法有明文嗎有 這些都是屬於地方的只是都是由中央在補助等等 中央政府支出的勞保補助 健保補助是法有明文是中央出對不對對 這個部分還必須透過修法因為以前這個部分是由政府在支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7718.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7745.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
過去是政府支出但是本來屬於地方的權責因為政府的財政中央較好所以在條文上就有指明是中央出的中央要出這個原來是省政府在出本來是省政府出的後來交給中央政府出必須要有條文明定的才是中央出如果沒有明定的那是要還是中央出嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7746.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7775.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以等於是說有條文明定是有勞保健保這必須要透過修法才有辦法把事權移轉但是現在如果沒有那個主席長你太急了啦我是說沒有修法你當然想把這個勞保跟健保交給地方嘛但是縱使如此該地方出的如果條文有定是中央出中央還是會出除非修法但是如果法沒有明定的是不是就應該地方出我要問你這一句啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7776.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7799.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
沒有法律明確的是不是該地方的就地方出地方制度法也有明確的規定所以我們現在的一般性補助和計畫性補助都是地方應該要出的所以從建法的法理推論該地方執行的業務除非像勞保跟健保有法有明文規定我們中央才出法沒有明文的都應該地方出是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7800.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7824.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
你太急了 你一直想說連勞保健保的你都覺得應該是地方出除非修法當然修法就照法律沒有修法的我們沒有定在法律裡面的就是照這個原理好 那我們再問一下來 現在健保保費法有明定政府負擔的都是由中央政府出對不對民眾致富的地方政府是不是幫低收入戶出了 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7825.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7840.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
有嘛有地方政府說嘛70歲的長者有地方政府民眾的致富而地方政府扛起來了嘛那一天我才問你嘛那如果地方政府他連民眾致富的都有能力致富那為什麼政府致富的要中央來付呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7841.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7870.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
是不是這個意思所以是不是你未來覺得說應該是中央跟地方共同討論原定政府負擔的怎麼樣大家負擔去拆分 是不是這樣子所以健保的保費你是傾向未來修法要把這個部分考慮進來現在連地方政府連民眾自負額都有辦法幫忙付那政府應付額就不應該都是由中央政府出是這樣嗎 好 往下看好 那麼剛剛我們看到了來 退伏經費也是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7871.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
7898.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
現在退伍經費一個是退伍基金嘛中央政府有沒有負擔有有沒有有負擔嘛那請問中央的公教人員是中央出對不對那請問地方公教人員的是誰出依規定應該地方政府來出依規定出實況是誰出因為他增加實況是誰代出他增加的部分是中央政府在出是嘛所以你看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
7901.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
7913.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
零用錢都發下去了帳單還是老爸老媽付子女都說零用錢太少了我沒辦法生活多給零用錢可是他外面的開銷的帳單還是老爸老媽付是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
7914.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
7941.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那在這種情況之下我們要怎麼調所以目前我們連公教的年金除了退伏基金之外是中央政府幫忙出而且中央政府還出到了地方的公教人員那未來有沒有可能這個部分也要分清楚說明白按照這個財力跟他們的負擔去調整也是好往下看來好剛剛講到那個李昆城委員提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
7942.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
7965.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
去年修了財化法 今年一算糟糕了 有345億分配不出去其中將近99.8%是屬於離島的那請問這些錢345億 是不是本來要用在地方是本來要用在地方的錢 要給地方的那是不是用在地方的身上誰來打 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
7967.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
7995.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
跟委員報告這是不是本來要分配給地方的錢這是因為公視分配不出去的本來要分配給他但是因為制度上的缺陷分配不出去那理論上這些錢要用在地方的人民身上是不是這樣因為他這個是本來是地方的錢所以用在地方的人民身上不包括這邊所說的福利照顧跟社會安全主席長包括所以如果這筆錢用在人民的福利照顧跟社會安全你是支持的吧 主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
7999.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8028.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
你怎麼沒有回答呢這是要給地方的錢地方本來就要做什麼社會福利照顧跟社會安全如果拿去做福利照顧跟社會安全符不符合這筆錢它的性質是不是對嘛 符合它的性質嘛好 那往下看所以說我們來看一下假如說國民老年 老人年金對不對這是人民的福利照顧跟社會安全嘛是不是應該在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8029.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8056.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
憲法裡面中央跟地方分權這是地方政府的權責嘛 治權嘛 對不對所以這筆錢如果用在這個部分有沒有符合它的原理主席長這屬於地方應該負擔的話地方應該負擔的如果這筆錢用在老人年金國民的國民年金有人主張說讓他月領八千如果扣除牌幅 扣除最低的居住限制不足的補到八千 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8057.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8085.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
主計總處可不可以幫忙算一下需要多少錢可不可以去算大概多少大概900億900億全年要900億對不對地方他要去付這900億好往下看那如果說產後照顧津貼有什麼好處可以坐月子兩老四老就可以省事或者說家人照顧可以減輕負擔像這種坐月子的錢算不算是人民的福利照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8087.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8115.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
是 那如果有人要發這筆錢是不是也要用這一筆地方給地方的錢按照中央和地方一個分權是地方的人民就有地方好 那最後一個因為時間的關係勞退勞工的勞退是不是屬於社會安全如果我們對勞工勞退自體我們政府給一趴的獎勵你覺得這筆錢是不是也是地方來支應是合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8117.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8138.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
是不是合理的最後我們看一下所以說現在財政收支劃分法地方政府的負擔能力我們要先把市權先分出來再去討論中央跟地方應分配的如果地方政府獲得更多的分配款是不是一些屬於地方做的事情地方政府要全額負擔你知不支持這樣的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8139.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8157.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
好 最後我們的結論就是這樣請主席總署針對地方政府法定應辦理事項統計現在統計出現在個別目前是中央跟地方分別負擔的實際數額原來是地方做的結果現在有中央跟地方來分別負擔把這個統計出來可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8159.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8181.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
是國化會目前在進行所以這個市權的部分是國化會在負責不是 我不是說市權我是說現在去統計啦妳是負責統計就好了嘛但是也必須要國化會去做分配之後我才能夠協助上面要有人告訴妳哪些是中央還是地方妳才能去做統計那妳沒關係妳把上面的誰做的先不管妳先統計出來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8182.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8202.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這些政事別哪些是當中多少中央出多少地方出你算出來我們來看看檢討上面的事權是歸誰好不好這樣懂了嗎可以喔最後請財政部針對現行財政收支劃分法地方政府以貨配的新增額度估算它對於上面這些地方應該做的事情的負擔能力可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8203.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8223.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這樣了解 夠清楚我們當然會配合委員的要求來做報告但是有一點我是不是可以補充說明一下因為這個345億畢竟還是地方的財源所以將來假定它的分配公司修正之後分配給地方以後地方政府是可以統收統支的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8224.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8245.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
當然但是法是立法院定的如果立法院通過立法要求把這345億現在分配不出去的直接用在人民的身上而且是屬於地方政府的福利照顧和社會安全支出那也是立法院的事情對不對就跟著立法院通過的法做就對了是不是這樣所以如果有這樣的法律規定那當然就可以了好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8246.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8256.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好 我們謝謝鍾嘉碧委員接下來我們請林世民召委那在林世民召委這個執行完結束之後我們休息五分鐘好 謝謝主席現在請主席長我們請主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8272.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8300.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
主委長好主委長我想我在上個禮拜在院會總質詢的時候我就有跟院長還有跟您請教說針對我們這個中央對直轄市縣市政府這個補助辦法的修正條文將一般性的補助款還有它的補助範圍把它改為具經常性普及性基本建設或維園的性質財政均衡等事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8302.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8324.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
剛才李燕修委員也提出這個所謂的這個具經常性普及性基本建設或維運的性質它是一個很抽象的法律概念到底它具體的內容是什麼我看到現在地方政府都是不曬曬不是很了解所以請問主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8325.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8351.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你是否可以明確的告訴我們到底這個一般性補助款的補助項目還有它的評比基準補助的比率到底是怎麼樣的一個具體的內容要很具體的告訴各地方縣市政府否則現在你改成申請制他們要如何申請這個真的會搞不清楚所以主席長你可以緊要的跟我們說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8352.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8381.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
是 而跟委員報告就一般性補助款的整個的一個項目評比基準還有補助的比率這個訂定的部分是由各部會來訂定那也大部分都是其實它大部分都是很多都是屬於舊有計劃新的計劃是比較少因為新的計劃有很多要經過核定的一個手續那所以這個部分大部分就計劃所以很多的縣市政府其實是可以沿用舊有的一個項目只是說它分配它有按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8382.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8403.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
財力的集聚分配來做分配所以可能就是說整個分配的一個比例做調整但是計畫的項目評比的基準這個部分大概都是沿用以往除非就是說有一些部分是沒有補助了不然其他大概都是跟以往的是一樣都差不多都差不多也沒有很大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8404.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8427.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以這個部分如果說本身就是有一部分是回歸地方他從所獲得的統籌分配稅款去支應之外其他大部分都是原有以前但是我們以前他每一項計畫都要提每一項的一個項目都要提計畫但是我們今年也把它改成就是只要天列表格譬如說0到6歲的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8428.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8447.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
就是有簡化就對了對 就是簡化很多一個計畫所以在整個程序上來講它是更方便 更便利而不是說我因為申請我就會比較困難但是有一些大計畫它的確是要申請譬如說捷運或者是軌道這些都必須申請了其實署長因為就是說現在改成申請制所以大家會有一個疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8454.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8478.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
就是說到底說我申請出去是不是確實會拿到這樣的一個補助才會有這樣子會不會中央說了算這樣的一個疑慮所以我們認為說你把它改成這樣的一個辦法其實可以說對地方政府充滿不確定性所以我才要你很明確的說明到底我們未來地方政府他要去申請的這個項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8480.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8497.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
因為你現在把原則講出來具緊張性 性質還有普及性 基本建設或維運性質但是你剛才又提到說就是跟以前一樣到底是一個具體內容是怎麼樣你在整個辦法在訂的過程中其實都沒有講很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8497.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8515.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
今天你大概有講出幾個基本的一個狀況所以我想這個還是請這個未來主計總署在整個辦法的修正以前還是要召集各縣市政府來講清楚所以才不會讓人家感覺是一個黑箱的一個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8515.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8537.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我们在9月17日召开各县市政府然后很明确的告诉他不是你829就已经把办法修好了我是说你在这次修法之前修这个办法之前你就应该去请各地方县市政府来跟他们说清楚讲明白是如果搭配你修了之后才请他们来我们也会做修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8537.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8560.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個是我給你的一個建議啦這個以後要改進啦 好不好是 當然我們還有一個很非常重要的一個問題就是說你這次的修正把原來我們各縣市政府的財力集赤也被做一個相關的一個修正導致我們地方政府他自籌財源的時候呢他的比例變成三級跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8561.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8578.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那辦法修正前是依照最近三年度的稅務決算審定書但是現在你變成要加計財政收支劃分法修正後新增的中央統籌分配稅款也就是說過去三年我這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8579.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8593.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
依照修正后的这个财政收支化分法所分配到的统轴分配税款根本还没拿到啊你现在就把它加进来造成他的财政机制变成三级跳这样公平合理吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8595.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8613.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
115他确定会拿到所以等于是说我们知道115会拿到我如果不纳入考量他影响数真的是太大他是真的是太大所以这个部分我必须把它纳入我的一个整个一个财政的一个级距里面去做考量这样对我整个 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8613.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8640.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
台灣才會比較有效的一個運用所以這個本身115年度確定所以我一定要把它納入影響數來考量如果不納入影響數考量而是用以前年度三年的一個平均這對所有有一些其他的一個形式是很大的不公平主席長 現在我要跟你討論說你這樣的考量你雖然你有你的考量但是你這樣的一個辦法去你根本就是根本就是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8641.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8655.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
因為他根本錢就還沒有入帳他115年的就還沒有入帳115年絕對會入帳而且有的增加一年增加1500億但是你就去壓縮他的補助款他不能說他的自籌款要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8656.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8679.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
自筹款提高它自有裁员增加自筹款当然要提高那有一些自筹款有一些统筹分配税款它本身增加没有那么多这个部分当然是要减少这样在整个各县市才能够得到均衡的一个照顾署长 所以你现在变成说你自己单方面去提出你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8679.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8695.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
但是各縣市政府你看各個縣市政府包含我們新竹縣我們的財政這個集資有那麼好嗎你現在直接把我們調整為第一級從三級變成第一級所以這樣看起來就是非常不合理OK |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8696.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8712.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以我還是一直跟你強調說其實整個這個辦法不是不贊成你修但是你在修的過程中要提早告訴各縣市政府聆聽他們的意見讓整個辦法能夠更完整一點好不好 我想所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8713.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8728.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
做大事要走大路不要說好像小鼻子小眼睛不敢讓各地方政府縣市政府來參與這樣的辦法修出來當然大家會有非常大的意見好 妳請回我現在請阮次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8735.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8755.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
是 市長我們想我們這一次的一個補助辦法的修正那主計總署剛才提到是為了因應這個財劃法的一個修正那昨天財政部邀集各地方政府會商整個這個統籌分配稅款的分配方式根據媒體報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8757.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8767.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
財政部表示將嚴厲把普通的統籌稅款優先權額補助各縣市基準財政收支的差額是所以我要請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8769.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8788.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
先前財政部一直堅持無法完整分配所有的統籌分配款就我們剛才講的有345億的一個餘額沒有辦法分配現在我們是又打算以哪一種方式去優先全額補助基準財政收支的差額 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8790.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8813.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
委員是講到是345億的問題345億就是說單純是因為計算公視的問題所以假定就是說我們大家有共識如果有修公視的話基本上那是地方的財源我們還是會按照公視分配給各地方政府基本上還是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8814.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8834.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
按照哪一種公式你現在講公式是哪一種公式是要透過這個修法還是透過因為我現在我要市長我給你一個建議我想我一直在院會諮詢我也講是不是可以依照現在既有的我們的財政收支劃分法的一個公式就其中二次分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8835.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
8855.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
你就做二次分配二次分配还有余额就做第三次的分配但是问题没有修法之前这样不是很单纯吗但是问题没有修法我们就是因为它明文规定明文规定就是没有规定我们就比较依照这种方式就依照原来法律的规定的一个精神去做再次分配不是 我不是说没有规定而是说它明文规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
8856.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
8881.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
它的分子 比如說我用離島來講離島來講 理論上分配的時候我分母應該是三個離島那我分子應該是三個離島來算但是目前的條文怎麼規定就是說分子還是用三個離島可是分母我用全國的22個縣市來算所以當然就分不出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
8882.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
8898.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
市長 財政部有自己的一套看法其實我的建議我是覺得比較單純就依照原來的公式原來的財政收視劃分法我們訂的相關的條文的權重比例做再次的去分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
8898.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
8922.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我覺得345億可以把它分配完成如果離島的有問題的話我們在引領離島用什麼樣子的方式去給它做補足這樣可不可行我跟委員報告如果可以做我們就早就做了 早就做了但是這個錢我們中央也不會拿來用這個錢我們會動機在哪裡主席我再最後一個一分鐘的一個問題將來就是說如果將來公司解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
8926.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
8952.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
能夠儘速解決這個問題看財政部如何來修法來解決這是我另外就是說針對昨天你們開會針對我們這次的修法你們好像要針對地方自籌財源的部分有關營業額的權重要把這個從30%變成8%所以主席總書你這樣的不是那個部長這樣的一個修正對於我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
8959.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
8982.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這個對於我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市變成說會對於整個計算下來我們的統籌分配稅款的比例會變少這樣是不是在變相的去懲罰我們經濟貢獻度高的縣市比如新竹縣市你把我們營業稅繳那麼多的你把權重把它這個修到這個降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
8983.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9003.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我覺得是這樣 就是說可能這有點要講清楚有點複雜 因為滿細的我是覺得剛剛講的八八那一步 簡單二要講所以我這樣講 還是會後我再跟委員解釋好不好市長 我是建議 你也不用回答了就是我希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9004.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9026.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
就是像本席所在的新竹縣市是重要的科技大縣長期的經濟貢獻度所創造的稅收都是列在我們全國的前段班所以我希望財政部應該公平合理的去做分配的機制並協助地方政府能夠提升他的財政的自主原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9027.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9043.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以我希望財政部未來你在說研擬的一個修法的版本這個權重比例還是要慎重考量好不好我想我們的目標是一樣的再做回覆了再給趙偉回覆一下好 謝謝我們林志明 趙偉我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9054.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9058.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9350.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9356.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好 報告委員會我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請袁寬恆委員質詢主席各位列席官員各位委員同事大家好主席有請主席處我們陳淑芝總長請陳主席長還有呢沒有就好請主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9381.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9381.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9383.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9410.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
主席長早主席處在6月2日發函給各縣市政府徵詢修正中央對縣市政府補助辦法的意見先不說內容是什麼光是說三天內要求回覆這非常誇張我們立法院要求各部會提供資料或者是請或者是要求這些政策內容到辦公室報告的部分部會都沒有辦法在三天內回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9412.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9426.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
各部會沒辦法做到的事情主計總署卻要求各縣市政府三天內就要給出意見那其實根本就沒有要徵詢縣市政府的意見這其實只是一個走形式過場而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9430.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9453.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這樣的一個時間安排完全不考慮到地方政府實務面的運作情況完全不顧地方政府的反應跟需求當然主席長你的回覆是說因為修法幅度不大也沒有要求地方政府要準時繳交意見這樣子讓我更加難以置信因為影響層面這麼大你說不用準時繳交意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9454.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9475.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
主席總署如果這樣子的草率形式提倡東西可以不準時交沒關係各縣市政府尤其是財政困難的政府看到這一次一般性補助款這樣子的一個修正都措手不及中央對地方的補助款應該是落實到財政均衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9476.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9502.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
協助地方維持公共服務品質但是我們看到在編列與分配上出現了嚴重的偏差跟不透明裡面關鍵的權重設定評估項目指標計算方式等都由中央單方面的來決定例如人口數財政自給率社會福利支出等指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9503.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9530.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
中央都可藉由資料統計來源來玩數字遊戲來操縱結果造成分配的一個落差補助款對於各縣市政府非常重要因為涉及社福教育基礎建設民生預算等那過程粗糙不堪地方制度法第69條第三項規定中央對地方的補助需要明定項目對象跟比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9531.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9557.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
過去補助規定以付表方式呈現明定列出補助事項此次修法將兩個付表全部刪除導致地方政府無法掌握中央補助會有補助哪些項目也會影響到預算籌編作業預算稅率應該如何編列那編列不足的部分是不是強迫地方政府來舉債 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9559.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9571.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
本來應該公開透明的政府機關由中央政府開始做起黑箱作業各地方政府對於中央如何分配補助款一概未知 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9573.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9588.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
修正補助項目不再名列之後該如何確保補助款分配的公平性與透明性請主計長說明我要跟委員報告的部分就是說這個部分所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9590.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9602.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我們在6月2號徵詢地方的意見事實上就是說在8月14才召開相關意見的一個徵詢會議以往的經驗當中就是陸陸續續都可以提供意見所以我們在8月14召開意見徵詢會議的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9611.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9638.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
就是也会把各地方陆陆续续提的意见然后来做一个讨论那所以我们在另外我们在8月25也会有分配机制的一个说明到9月13也邀请各县市首长来做补助交流的一个会议另外在9月17又做一个召开来说明补助项目案金额一个说明会那第二个呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9639.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9652.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
如果說那個付表的這個部分取消那個部分我們是改以那個就是還是有確定項目付表的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9654.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9679.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
對 我們還是有新增一個就是涵蓋一般信項計劃型原來的副表一二三處但是我們還是有新增一個副表去涵蓋一般信項計劃型的一個補助項目而且大部分其實大部分都是原來的一個舊計劃引導這是有部分需要中央政策引導的一個項目這個部分我們就延續然後由各部會來訂定一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9680.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9688.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
一個補助的一個相關的考核和一個審核的一個要點好 主委長我知道這大家心裡都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9690.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9715.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個修正後的條文不明確那補助款的分配就是一個黑箱作業就像台中捷運南線明年中央應該要補助台中約大概新台幣42億但是交通部卻只承諾合撥1.68億短掃高達96%依照補助款的規定南線建設經費由中央負擔40%那台中市負擔6成 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9719.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9726.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
但是依照原本的比例計算明年中央應該要補助台中42億但是交通部卻只承諾合撥1.6億短掃 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9730.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9753.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
60倍你們這樣的做法等於是嚴重違背中央跟地方的合作承諾直接衝擊捷運南線的一個建設時程此次修正將一般性補助款又改為申請制那代表以後說補助就要按照政黨的一個以後的補助都要按照政黨來進行分配只要縣市長感動 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9755.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9776.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就可以拿到更多的補助款相反的像台中市政府就只能繼續被中央剝奪如果一般性補助款分配完全依賴申請制那不就等於賦予執政黨中央更巨大的一個資源控制權進一步的加劇中央對地方的政治操作地方自治就是淪為口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9777.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9795.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以以前台中市政府努力還債讓台中市民平均負債可以減少把台中市的財力成績財力的一個成績從三級拉到二級台中市本身就是常年被中央大小眼的城市所以好不容易把自己的財力 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9797.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9815.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
集賜 然後提升到二級 沒有用因為公視不公不楚補助全靠中央的臉色中央也可以利用財力集賜二級來作為藉口不給補助款所以實際上就是台中市又要再一次地被中央剝一層皮 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9815.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9830.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
主委長你不覺得說這一次補助法的一個補助辦法的修正只是讓各縣市政府更加的積極更積極的舉債那你中央也不管啊對不對那只有讓地方政府這樣子一個惡性循環是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9831.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9861.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我跟委員報告一下所謂的台中南線的一個補助像有關軌道或者是捷運相關的一個建設計畫在中央來講它都沒有剪裂只是它今年編列有困難依照補助的辦法就是中央佔四成 地方佔六成高雄因為財力集市第三級所以它才中央補助六成地方要負責四成所以這個都擺在眼前大家看得到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9861.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9884.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以它這個部分它都沒有改變它今年是因為它沒有辦法補助額度這麼多所以它是往後延並不是說它不給那以台中來講它是考量它整個工程都還沒有花包然後都市變更都沒有完成用地沒有取得所以才給它金額比較少但是如果它工程花包所以40億什麼時候會到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9886.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9903.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
以后年度它会按照它的工程进度去做拨补所以这个部分是没有修正的这是那个交通部跟你说明的吗这个以目前它在115年度预算数上表达的就是这样子它的补助比例整个都没有做变更 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9905.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9925.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我跟你講各地方的重大建設都不應該被卡尤其是用這種方式是 所以軌道的部分我們都沒有一般是沒有這個部分我們原則上都是支持只是它現在中央要編出來是有它的困難所以它是往後延它按照它實際的進度不是按照你所提的需求數 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9926.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9954.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好 主席長你身為中華民國的主席長你應該要為全體國人為中華民國的國民來著想絕對不是看顏色辦事好不好所以我希望你們不要一錯再錯好不好這個部分我們也絕對支持像軌道的部分涉及到比較大眾捷運的一個部分我們原則上是希望能夠支持中央地方共同來協助把它完成好的 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9958.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9964.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
好 我們謝謝袁匡衡委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席 我請主席長還有財政部次長好 請主席長還有阮次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9985.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9994.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
兩位首長好我想大家都非常關心的還是財政部昨天再邀了地方政府討論財化法那昨天開會的狀況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9997.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10021.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
昨天我覺得是大家有一個非常不錯的交換意見所以起碼就是整個分配的架構大家是有共識我看到你們的是說統籌款跟一般性補助款不低於7177就是2015的目標就是我們立法院立法的原意 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10022.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10033.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
但是統籌款是統籌款然後一般性補助款還有計畫性補助款這中間的關係尤其是今年你們預算已經編了請問這個新的討論跟你的預算編列會做什麼樣的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10038.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10051.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我們基本上我昨天溝通的是針對統籌分配稅統籌款統籌款那一部分補助款那一部分由總署那邊來負責所以補助款就是主計處的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10053.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10074.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那基本上昨天就是對剛剛講的分配價格市長我還是一樣我剛剛問的是預算已經編了明年各地方政府也編了預算現在立法院雖然還沒開始審但是你們將來這個法說年底才要送來請問我預算審了你法又來修那到底是預算先過還是法要先過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10075.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10089.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
是這樣子 你了解我的意思嗎我知道你的法又在修 我的預算又這樣編然後法又修來的時候又不一樣立法院也不見得會通過你們的版本所以到時候一定變成一個又要追加減 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10090.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10105.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
如果是我們就是說會在這個年底前這個送修法案的話原則上是到年底前只剩下71天116年立法院正要審預算所以我不知道要怎麼審 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10106.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10133.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
對 但是我們這個案子一定是從116年以後才開始用不會影響到115年不影響所以我們預算可以照審你的法可以照過你的意思是這樣我還是要回到原點一年多了立法院這一屆一上任就要修裁划法這一年多你們說一直在找地方政府開了幾次會到昨天還在開會我實在不知道你們到現在為止還拿不出自己的版本到底是怎麼回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10134.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10153.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
這一年多都是白搭都在睡覺不會跟委員報告其實我們現在積極在做你們積極在做這我已經聽了一年了耳朵都開始長繭了我在說年底一定有版本一定有相關未來所有的可長可久卓院長口中說請鄭麗君副院長來做相關的統籌請問你們開過幾次會跟鄭副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10159.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10164.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我們基本上我剛才講過就是說我們爭取能夠我問你們開過幾次會我們開過四次會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10166.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10189.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我問跟鄭副院長開過幾次會跟副院長那邊開那個算不清楚了開才化法的會開過幾次開過很多次會我已經記不出來多少次什麼時候開始開的開到現在還在開啊就一直在溝通一直在精進相關的法案的內容好 那昨天這個會主計處有沒有參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10190.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10213.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
有有有有參加主席長沒有參加沒有那都是比較其實技術層面的同仁在在在我的想法很簡單啦就是只有71天你們自己溝通你還有一個東西叫做跟立法院溝通我們現在沒有聽到你們要跟我們溝通的意思而且過程裡面我一直問版本到現在為止只看到上次院長在 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10215.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10226.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
議場說我有版本在手上這個版本到現在沒有見過光次長 很簡單我們在這個財政委員會這總要見公婆的啦時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10227.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10253.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
不管省預算也好還是要財化法的版本也好都必須要在這邊做審查另外國民黨本身的公私爭議的還有補助款的爭議它都有版本而且都進付二讀了11月中就可以表決了所以到時候表決通過的是立法院的版本你們的版本又擺在後面了這才是我覺得行政機關最大的問題這是我所以我跟委員報告你不要讓這種事情發生吧再來善後善後再善後 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10254.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10279.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
要嘛就快一點要嘛就跟立法院好好溝通怎麼樣在這個財化法上面能夠找到一個最大的共識而不是只是你們在閉門造局當然所以謝謝委員的指教這個也是我們未來要處理的事情現在看起來就是你們慢慢拖拖拖才會拖到今天這樣的僵局到現在還要去跟地方政府開會地方政府來這邊開過幾次會 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10282.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10298.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
重視人家就不會拖到現在重視人家的意見就不會讓地方政府還要到你們那邊來哭窮如果立法院沒有幫他們通過他們永遠在看你們的臉色我覺得今天的問題是行政機關請尊重地方政府什麼叫財政自主 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10298.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10313.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我覺得應該地方政府不是看中央的臉色不要把它當成你們的下屬機關大家是一種合作關係這是中華民國是大家的這個我完全贊同所以財政地方自主是地方自治非常重要的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10314.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10338.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那中央是要去怎麼樣協助或平衡但是不是把它當成你們的籌碼去做分配這個很重要接下來次長我還有一個問題我們現在很多政府的政策是鼓勵所謂的終身學習 再次進修目前新的世界已經來臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10340.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10369.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
尤其是像人工智慧 區塊鏈各種新興的技術那現在全時的工作者都會選擇再回到學校進修不過我們目前為止台灣有非常多的大學開了在職專班還有EMBA但是在我們的稅法裡面對於這些終身學習好像沒有給予特別的優惠或者是說我們現在的所謂的扣除額裡面它有一定的限制所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10370.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10383.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
如果我的小孩在念大學我可以扣但我自己念書不能扣你覺得這樣合理嗎跟委員報告目前的稅法規定對這是不是我們應該要做一些檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10387.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10402.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以我簡單的讓我說明一下目前的規定就是說目前我們對子女的教育補助費每年是2.5萬元這個是子女 很少啦針對她的撫養性質 既然念書怎麼可能只有2.5萬元所以說剛才委員提到本人那一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10403.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10428.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那我們是目前是做法是說從他的薪資目前是用薪資特別扣除額去扣或者是列舉扣除額比如說你職業專用的服裝進修訓練費或職業上工具的支出這個我都知道但是他有很多的限制第一個要跟工作有關的技能我如果是念法務我要去念法律他才能扣但是我去念法務我去念EMBA可能就不能扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10428.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10438.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我的意思是說終身學習不應該做這些限制第二個扣減的比例很低因為薪資特別扣除了扣得比較多所以在美國它其實有一個終身學習 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10441.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10464.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
減稅額每一個夫妻合併申報不超過18萬美元的話本人配偶受撫養人的大學研究所跟專業學位都可以申請扣減最高限額抵稅金2000美金也就是6萬元這個我認為我們也會在財委會來提案因為我覺得終身學習尤其是我自己在讀書不能扣我的小孩讀書可以扣這很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10465.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10491.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那金額也不高但是接下來的世界我剛剛說非常的新連我們現在包括我們這個年紀我們可能都要去學一下AI了這些東西都不會是停下來的所以委員這個概念很好啦但是我是覺得就是說我們會提案那也請你們開始研議這部分的金額跟相關的稅損有可能有減少多少我相信不會太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10492 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10517.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們倒是會精算但是我覺得目前我們是希望因為現在扣除額實在太多了就造成就是說百分之將近一半的人這就是大家都因為中華民國萬萬歲只能一直找扣除額不然要怎麼辦現在碩士在職專班有5.3萬人也就是說這是國家很重要的人才苦如果大家願意去讀書我們應該是鼓勵的好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10518.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10522.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們當然一定要鼓勵但是是不是一定要用稅的方式好 最後一個問題主席長 我想問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10526.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10555.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
還有財政部賴總統8年要直接興建13萬戶的社會住宅到現在所謂的直接興辦社會住宅的百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫聽說還沒有核定沒有核定的原因是各部會審查意見還是希望內政部說要有更多的錢去買地但是主計總署反對請問是主計總署在反對蓋社宅嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10556.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10574.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我們是沒有反對說蓋社宅可是你們說要尊潔減少國庫財務負擔所以到現在沒有核定的原因是這個嗎不是 因為事實上就是說你租屋補貼和建社宅這兩個到底要採哪一個所以不是主計總署的意見賴總統的政見要不要執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10580.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10602.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這是要執行的 但是就是說我執行的方式要用什麼方式來對它最容易合定計畫都有這麼難嗎至少先合定然後大家去找裁員本來就是這樣啊你連合定計畫都沒有那連合定都不合定所以根本不知道要怎麼辦現在有方法了嗎百萬社宅蓋不蓋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10604.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10618.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
她是涉宅她不是她百萬的一個涉宅包括租屋補貼嘛租屋補貼嘛租屋制裁計畫辦不辦嘛這個計畫是她的總統政見到現在一年了還在指紋樓梯響啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10620.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10632.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以25萬裡面分為就是我都知道細節我只問你們這個計劃要不要辦還是什麼時候會核定還是主席處一開始就說不要是誰在打是誰在停 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10635.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10655.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我問各部會 各部會說是主計處的意見反對啊那什麼時候要給我答案我們這個會期要審預算啦所以我想知道這個百萬住宅基金的相關的計畫尤其是百萬租屋家庭支持計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10657.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10684.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
今年年底會不會有個計畫有沒有一個完整的計畫還是你主計處告訴給我一個你們的意見完整的給我這個部分就是說內政部他是怎樣我們是再來跟他一個我們希望如果是政府要做主計處不應該是那個阻礙的人我們沒有阻礙我們只是提供更好的分析給他參考財政部也一樣剛剛講沒有錢請問你們要去找錢才有辦法做這件事聽起來是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10686.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10691.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以財政部的立場呢我們要不要支持百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10692.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10720.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為這個就是健全這個房市市場的一部分所以基本上它是一個國家的政策一年了這個計畫連影子都沒有這很離譜啊好不好兩位你們身為財主機關我覺得如果我們百萬家庭的租屋計畫沒有裁員那你們就要大聲的去向其他單位說大家要怎麼來想辦法而不是只是提了一個空殼的計畫好嗎沒有核定這件事情很離譜啊好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10724.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10745.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
好 謝謝黃先生委員我想財政部跟主席處這一部分剛剛黃委員的這個質詢的內容這一部分應該跟行政院來好好溝通迅速核定這是賴總統的一個政見OK跟內政部要好好再去討論好 接下來請羅明財委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10756.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10783.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
主席貴文 處列席官員大家好主席柯佛請財政部阮次長請阮次主席總署還有陳主席長陳主席長好兩位都是很重要的財經官員謝謝那我們看到整個全世界的變化請問一下現在新加坡的人均GDP是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
10784.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
10803.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
新加坡人均9萬5千美元左右台灣人均的GDP是多少3萬8千美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
10804.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
10822.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
如果用總數來算的話今年預估是26兆多 明年預估大概28兆多所以人均的GDP大概多少人均的話大概是3萬5左右明年的話就預估是超過4萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
10825.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
10852.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
来来来 主记这边三万四 人均是三万四大声的没关系人均三万四 明年差不多三万八明年三万八三万八是一个大家听起来就比较振奋的数字虽然多数人的无感那我们现在就看着怎么样在你的施政上可以匆匆隆隆下一句 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
10854.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
10877.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
游刃有餘你不要捉襟見肘所以要把餅做大在30年前台灣是四小龍之首我們人均GDP那時候贏過新加坡就新加坡現在的成長人均GDP到9萬5千美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
10879.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
10895.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我們就一直在思考應該怎麼做把餅做大把台灣做強讓我們在國際更有競爭的一個優勢所以 卵次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
10896.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
10917.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
先請教你一下因為今天大概討論很多就是一般型補助 計畫型補助當然在我們地方的立場是越多越好可是我們新北現在減少了很多等一下麻煩請主計長這邊再來說明一下首先就是請阮次長把餅做大這個很重要你看我們累積大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
10925.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
10948.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
六七年来税收大概超过一兆八千亿这个钱到底跑去哪里我跟委员报告基本上它就是第一个它就是用来还债这是第一个因为我们没有还多少我们还债你还债我们国债中也是差不多它一直在升高 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
10949.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
10975.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
現在國債中的情況是多少另外我也跟委員報告其實大家可能看到的那些所謂時增數超過預算數都是總預算如果我們加計特別預算的話以過去從101年到去年為止113年為止這13年當中只有4年是有剩餘的其他都是赤字 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
10976.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
10995.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以我是講說不能只看總預算要看包括總預算跟特別預算統籌來看是 所以你有沒有發現特別預算變成是一個巧門也不會 因為所有的預算都要經過立法院這邊通過這十年來你有沒有算過特別預算加一加總額多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
10996.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11025.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
特別預算我這邊手上因為一直在增加最近的數字可能我請同仁在會後我是不是再提供給參考這個數字你要多清楚一點就是說我們感覺稅收都超增結果錢一兆八千億到底跑去哪裡大家覺得那沒有的話你要把這個實質的好處讓人民有感或者是軍公家要調心結果好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11026.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11050.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
也沒有那種快樂指數上升的感覺 沒有啊所以我們在想說應該要好好來思考一下什麼樣的一個方法可以像新加坡一樣讓我們人均GDP可以急起直追至少有機會到新加坡了你不要說一樣 至少要打八折吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11050.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11072.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我跟委員報告 以我對產業的了解我們跟新加坡的產業結構是非常不一樣的我們的產業結構比較類似像韓國或甚至跟日本比較類似所以新加坡它畢竟是一個城市國家它的主要的收入來源最主要是靠投資 靠金融 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11072.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11098.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那我們是靠一般的這個製造業所以像我們製造業我們包括我們ICT產業就佔我們出口就佔百分之七成五全部都是靠IC產業所以很重要一部分電池產業所以我的意思是說最近這幾年為什麼我們能夠超越韓國就是因為我們在這方面比韓國還要強還要強那表示這個警訊已經出現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11099.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11121.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我們現在全部都靠護國神山現在又有漁工要移山把這座山移到美國去那我們剩下什麼山我們只剩阿里山我覺得我想不管是我們院的長官就是卓院長也一再強調還有很多的相關的卓院長是不是辭了好幾次要請辭是不是你有沒有聽過哪位卓院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11127.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11134.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我不曉得這個次長官的事我不會怎麼知道你當次長不是都要請辭三次四次都被拒絕啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11137.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11160.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個我不太清楚你再問問看但是我是覺得有消息跟我講一下我們的產業就是說剛才講說戶口神山戶口神山到其他國家去投資到底是不是會不會影響到台灣的經濟發展其實到目前的所有的研究報告都認為是擴大我們對這個產業的影響力而不是掏空我們國內的經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11166.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11186.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以市長的說法是有點正面因為最主要是核心留在台灣好 金娘你這樣說台灣的股市有沒有機會破3萬點我不是股市分析師但是最近股市真的是非常的強真的很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11186.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11200.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那最主要也是因為我們的就是AI的產業高速運算產業這一部分這個是可以講說是成長非常的快市長 你現在那個國安基金要不要擴大它的規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11202.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11228.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
如果委員支持的話我就樂觀其成因為為什麼現在總共五千億嗎現在五千億但是實際上可以用的只有兩千億因為另外三千億是要跟其他基金借但是其他基金其實已經沒有錢因為錢都投進去了所以我們能夠只有能夠用的大概就兩千億因為以前最多的話大概是一萬多點在談國安基金的時候是五千億現在我們整個台灣的股市的市值是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11228.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11241.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
現在都超過40億以上了40兆以上了嘛40兆 那40兆你要40的調升調升的話有沒有可能5000億往上調調到1兆左右如果可以的話我絕對都關其成我覺得1兆也還勉強啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11245.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11268.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
也沒有多多少啦我所謂一兆是說扣除那個就是扣除那些從基金借的假定是說我們可以從行戶那邊借到7000億的話我是覺得對股市的穩定 民心的穩定還有投資的信心一定有很大的幫助所以你現在算起來就是加起來你可以運作的希望可以達到超過一兆以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11268.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11287.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
差不多啦 差不多那個金額如果委員支持的話我就覺得這個是一個很好的方向支持我要再研究一下看你會不會匆匆容容好那最重要的是你要把一些好的一些說則把它提出來修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11288.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11310.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
你起碼跟新加坡一樣為什麼人家你說是城市國家會發展得很好那好的地方在哪裡你可以通盤檢討一下是好不好我也希望說趕快把一些外在的環境排除以後希望股市可以上看多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11314.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11340.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這個我沒辦法說沒有 這個數字是三萬三萬是OK的意思OK 那有很多的因素我幫次長講三萬點三萬點因為一萬我也請你吃過雞排喝過珍奶兩萬也吃過了等著這個三萬我會加倍奉還可是請你要注意一下 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11341.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11358.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
現在台灣的這個結構有錢的賺了很多AI周邊賺很多傳統產業苦哈哈傳統產業的部分大概平均三分之二不漲反跌跌破20年平均線 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11359.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11386.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
所以本席也希望還有主計總書這邊也注意這個問題就對於弱勢關懷比如說新北市需要照顧不管是你一般補助或計畫型的補助你要增加他的關愛的眼神金額要多一點因為必須我們400多萬人人數最多人均來講我們是最辛苦的請多多照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11387.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11390.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
新北市 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝羅明財委員接下來請王世堅委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11415.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11419.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
謝謝主席 我請主席長好 請陳主席長委員好主席長我們前年112年國庫統計那麼在台股多頭助攻之下我們平均每戶家庭資產1889萬1889萬創 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11443.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11455.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
數十年來新高啦那這當然是好事不過我覺得這些數字背後還是有一些問題啦就是說如果你看一下我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11457.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11476.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
財富分配表這個財富分配也是我們主計數30年前民國80年你們先公布一次那麼拿來跟30年後就是最新的這一次是在你們在4年前公布的那麼如果我們把財富五等分來分 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11478.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11486.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
每20%這樣子來做一個區塊來分那麼這個財富的差距最前段的20%跟最後段的20%相比30年前民國80年的時候是16.8倍最有錢的20%是最貧窮的20%的16.8倍竟然經過30年 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11507.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11527.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
大家全國上下舉國的奮鬥之後結論竟然是高達66.9倍也就是說富者越富 貧者越貧那更可怕的是你如果把前20%財富佔比那本來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11533.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11552.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
30年前民國80年的時候是大概將近50% 49.71%在最新的這一次竟然前20%的富有民眾竟然佔比是高達62.68% |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11557.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11568.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
有六成多的財富集中在前20%的民眾當中你覺得這樣對嗎那更可怕更可怕的還什麼後段最後20%的財富 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11577.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11600.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
本來還僅僅只有2.95 30年前至少還有佔將近3%30年後竟然佔不到1%只有0.94那所得更不用講所得更不用講前20%所得有1306萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11605.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11632.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
要升到5133萬這很好喔我們大家不忌妒他們但是後20%的家庭財富竟然是衰退30年前78萬30年後的今天77萬看起來表面跌了1萬但是主席長你如果把幣值 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11633.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11651.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
跟這30年來的通貨膨脹相比而言現在如果家庭財富77萬元一個家庭那可以說是赤貧那可以說是一窮二白不是嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11654.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11681.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我為什麼提到這個事情我們上個禮拜在這邊質詢的時候我在講說我們儲計數的數字一定要很詳實為什麼因為越詳實越能找出問題那我們用國家的稅制來做個平衡不是這樣嗎所以我上禮拜說我們如果實質調查的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11683.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11693.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我認為我們台灣貧窮黑素的人口有高達兩百萬之多啦當時我們有做這樣的切磋那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11694.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11721.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我們當然政府必須去宣傳國家的好這是應當的每個國家都一樣歐美日大家都一樣都講股票很好股票是經濟的櫥窗沒有錯我們這些年股票確實是好但是並不是2300萬台灣人每個人都在買賣股票不是啊而且買賣股票的人也不一定每個人都賺不是嗎那 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11724.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11752.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
能力有高低 運氣有好壞所以每個人機運不同可能人家能力強的 運氣好的他去富有這個沒有人會去忌妒問題是在我們的稅制在我們現行的制度下我們已經很嚴重造成貧富不均所以我認為稅制的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11752.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11771.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那第一步應該從主計處給的數字主計處給的數字如果給的數字不是在那麼詳實的時候那麼他們在計稅的稅制的調整下他們會麻木不仁所以時間暫停我請那個複稅署好 我們時間暫停一下今天署長沒有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11777.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
11785.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
請李副署長副署長是負責應付業來應付就對了你請就位那個委員好署長在處長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
11801.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
11827.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這個我跟他嚴厲的要求對每一項我們國內各項數字的統計一定要詳實那這些數字都有到你們負稅署的手上那麼我們可以很清楚的看到我們數十年來綜合所得稅薪資所得佔的稅比將近是最高的佔了21.6之高 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
11829.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
11858.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
高過營業稅 高過資產稅高過政交稅 高過關稅也高過貨物稅也就是我們來自壽星階層我們辛苦的工作血汗錢那大家都盡了國民應盡的義務都給到這麼高但是這上面針對薪資的部分薪資的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
11860.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
11866.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這麼多年來調整慢如牛布啦那所以十幾年前大概十二年前吧那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
11869.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
11895.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
櫃鼠有跟經濟部有聯合當時有說針對這個中小企業發展條例來修法因為也就是說我們希望能夠加薪減稅那當時好不容易修了增加了一些條款減去了一些排除條款之後員工加薪租稅的優惠有達成但是你們修好的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
11896.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
11910.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
也只有實質也只有兩年只有這兩年有動用到這個條例讓企業去加薪減稅那加薪的人口多少有一年105年2008人隔一年1730人然後加薪總薪師 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
11922.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
11945.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
總加多少總加六千萬六千萬而已那當然你們也給企業家中小企業家這六千萬的給了一千七百萬的租稅減免這是很好也就是說啊這個修法還不夠徹底績效不彰啦績效不彰好啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
11950.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
11973.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
所以我們立院我們一再敦促之下你們去年七月也修法然後你們刪除了失業率這個門檻那也把這個營運所的減除率由138提高到175%我現在要問你的就是說好 修這樣很好這去年七月修的但到現在一年多 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
11975.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
11991.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
現在十月底請問你這個修法以後到現在為止有沒有去檢討它的成效如何不要再像十年前那個一樣好不容易大陣仗修了結果十幾年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
11993.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12014.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
就只有兩年有被中小企業運用到可見你們沒有積極去推動沒有積極去鼓勵結果兩年就我跟你講了我們高達八成的民眾是在中小企業上班內六七百萬人以上結果兩年合計 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12015.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12043.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
不到四千人因為這樣被加薪企業因為這樣被減稅金額才六千萬這不是笑話嗎所以我認為土法不足以自行你們修了以後你們要去追蹤要去推動要去鼓勵啊所以我請問你啊去年七月修了以後到現在你們去調查成效如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12044.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12057.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
是 謝謝委員這個成效有顯現出來大概我們有三萬四千的人可以試用那費用的部分大概有減掉了我們四點五億那稅額大概就九千萬所以有去檢討了是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12059.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12079.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我檢討這點我就覺得很好很好但是進了還太少了你不覺得嗎就我跟你講的中小企業壽星的民眾那高達八成之多所以這個部分是好的開始但是數字還太少持續push |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12079.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12097.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那是不是那个组织长你就继续跟赋税署跟他们提点把精确的数字告知他们好不好我跟委员报告一下因为30年前的国务调查和现在110年调查的一个它调查方法是不一样 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12098.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12114.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
110年是用大數據那將來呢我們大因為這間隔30年他有一些相關的一個數據差距很大那現在這個部分呢他不能說一個直接去比較但是我們現在是每4年我們就要發布一次整個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12115.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12137.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
財務的一個數據整個家庭財務分配的一個我們大概四年會用大數據來公布一次所以你的意思是那過去三十年前比較不精準他調查的方法不一樣不能用來比較因為調查方法不一樣比較的方式出來的但是你可以看出這個絕對值第一個我認為絕對可以比較因為這個在我們民眾之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12142.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12159.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
大家感覺上也是這樣第二點你以絕對值來看那我們就講30年後的今天現在110年這一次竟然家戶的財富最平的20%末段班的20%竟然只有77萬我請問你這是對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12162.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12186.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
因为后末段班的他的财富为什么是77万他也有可能是他的资产他很大一个资产但是他很大的负债因为为什么他买房可能要负债很多所以减去之后他是这样的一个数值来呈现表示说现在比较多数比较就是单人或者是年轻人他比较会有说他买房的负担是这样子 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12186.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12199.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
本來資產就是要算淨值這跟他借不借款無關這本來就要扣除的嘛但是他可資用家庭財富就是77萬你不覺得77萬在現今的社會物價這麼高漲幣值這麼薄弱之下你不覺得這是赤貧嗎你不覺得這是一窮二白嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12212.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12224.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以我們很透過很多政府的一個補助的支出移轉式的支出有去做改善你去看我們上禮拜的質詢我才跟你說貧窮黑數那個補助那個少之又少只有佔2.1%而我們貧窮的黑數有高達16%這麼一插這麼一來一回一插200萬人之多好不好好謝謝王世堅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12243.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12243.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
接下來我們請張祺凱委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12274.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12293.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
謝謝主席 請主席長還有阮市長好 請陳主席長還有阮市長委員好今天討論這個一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款剛剛王世堅 王瑩剛剛質詢完 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12296.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12318.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這兩個對地方政府跟一般人民都是非常重要的如果套用王世堅的那個歌這本來應該是匆匆容容可以游刃有意要討論的啊結果現在行政院把他搞得變成是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬甚至到現在都還在睜眼說瞎話昨天財政部邀了各個地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12320.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12343.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
美企業說是協調可是看起來好像就是地方政府一定要接受的市長我看了你們昨天的一個講話你們說你們保證統籌款跟一般的補助款不會比去年還要少 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12345.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12364.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
事實上你們昨天都在討論的是各個縣市之間的這個水平分配現在問題不在那裡嘛才化法最重要精神是什麼就是以前的錢 中央集權嘛我一直在強調好的財政就是像不倒翁下面一定是要過的結果我們不是我們剛好是倒三角形 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12365.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12386.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
頭重腳輕所以就出現很多地方自治沒辦法推動很多照顧人民的事情沒辦法做所以才修了財化法財化的精神就是把中央的拿的太多的錢要下放給地方嘛你昨天開會應該是要討論中央要落實財化法把該有的4千多億落實下放給地方結果不是你們去討論說各個縣市要怎麼分 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12387.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12413.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
搞錯重點 第二個是更嚴重的目前我發現一個非常離譜的事情你們現在行政院好像變成是土皇帝了你們不只坐在金山上面裝乞丐還在喊窮你們還在從地方在挖錢這是財化法本來修正完下放地方是4100多億 對不對結果我現在發現一個很嚴重的你們是以修辦法你們再從地方又搶了2646億回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12419.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12437.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
搶了三分之二我們給大家清楚看一下中央這次要到地方的錢一個是統籌款一個是一般補助款一個是計劃型補助款現在最嚴重的計劃型的補助款今年2954億你們大到一砍砍到剩下308你們怎麼會這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12448.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12468.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這個地方很多施政怎麼做等一下我進一步來講這個是影響影響到一般民眾最基礎的這個需求影響到我們很多的基礎建設了第二個影響也是很大的你把一般性的這個補助款你竟然要變成是要去做審查我先問你一下8月28號 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12476.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12494.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
朝野協商的時候就發現說你們竟然做了這麼離譜的這個事情因為一般性的補助款很多都是法定預算法定的義務支出包括薪資 什麼退伍那些你怎麼可能要去審查呢所以那一天朝野協商各黨團三長都在你看那個文這個文是不只是通過中東府公告的要求行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12504.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12529.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
不能夠將明年的一般性補助款改為申請制上面不是只有國民黨跟民眾黨包括我三長簽名我簽起來的柯建銘 吳思瑤 陳培宇都在上面你現在怎麼樣 你是打臉柯建銘他們三長打臉總統府嗎怎麼可以做這樣事情好啦 更嚴重的 你看右下角 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12531.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12550.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
你現在馬上把原來的一般補助款砍掉是什麼教育部分的有659億全部都砍喔這裡面要做什麼基本的教育人員的辦事費營養午餐水電冷氣退伏支出限職的待遇調整這錢怎麼能砍呢第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12557.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12572.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
蘇進清一砍了24億他做什麼河川的清一跟蘇進10億內政部下水道14億現在紅台低天災那麼多如果因為你把這個錢砍掉要出了狀況你良心會安嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12575.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12593.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
一般型的補助款怎麼可以這樣改這樣砍呢你這個等於是辦法已經凌越了整個財化法當初的修正而且你是打臉了整個朝鮮協商的結論打臉了總統府接下來看更嚴重的計劃型補助款你砍了這2646億這多嚴重的事情桃園市直接跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12601.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12610.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
他們桃園力推的珍珠海岸計畫被砍了以後還有校園的無障礙這個補助被砍了以後這全部都出狀況了然後台中市60億本來明年要給人家60億的藍線的這個捷運砍到整家1.6億然後基隆跟彰化縣長跟這個縣長他們跑出來講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12630.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12659.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這次如果本來立法院通過這個財發法修正本來他們的地方的經費是增加的結果你知道裡面乾坤大農以下像這個土匪這樣像土房廳這樣亂砍砍到後來他們的計畫型的這個他們這整個收入啊欸 搞不好比財發法修正以前還要少耶連立營 我給你看一個連你們民進黨的 而且你以前服務過的你長久在台南服務的連台南的財政 收入幾都出來講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12662.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12689.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
他說拜託中央我們有很多計劃型的補助款是已經實施多年他是一個跨年度的他說不要減要不然的話連台南的水利建設都受影響水利長跟次長我今天執行一畫面我要提醒幾個第一個現在問題不在不在縣市之間的移動是垂直 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12691.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12708.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
而且是財化法本來的精神請回到你該給的錢要給地方你不要像土匪 像土房弟你又搶回去了2000多億你現在就搶回去三分之二而且我今天很明確跟你講它已經影響了治水的這個問題教育的問題 薪資的問題基礎建設的這個問題各個縣市政府都出來 拜託了 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12713.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12727.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
拜託你們算時間不要一直在搶錢萬一天災來了你連治水的錢都砍掉了良心何在小孩子的營養午餐被你們砍掉了你疑心何忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12728.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12757.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好不好我说明一下因为115年预算的筹编是很困难的那我们当初去减也是不得已所以我们本身是把原来一般性补助和计划性补助都是属于县市应办的事项所以我们把一些它属于基本它应办的事项回归给县市然后把一些属于需要中央政策引导性的部分来继续编列而且我们还简化你现在就是坐在 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12758.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12770.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
你現在就是坐在金山上面在裝乞丐啦中央政府這麼有錢中央政府現在目前的總預算一年光是一年三兆欸歷年來最有錢的明年還變到三兆一千億欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12772.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
12789.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
你當主機人也那麼久我跑預算新聞那麼久我們以前的預算中央政府兩兆就不得了了短短這幾年攀升到三兆了你這麼有錢你是大富豪我們地方政府要嘛小康要嘛就小平跟赤平 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
12790.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
12805.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
就好不容易財化法過了 錢要下放了可以落實地方自治可以照顧地方建設照顧地方的人民你又乾坤大樓又去搶錢搶了兩千多億回去不是我乾坤大樓要搶你現在裝窮第一個我再給你看一個來 主席我再給你看一個專業的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
12807.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
12820.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
民國88年 你看我的圖民國88年的時候 精準之前中央政府佔所有稅數是多少60.1到現在 經過財務法你如果事件多一多下放 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
12821.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
12845.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
4000多億都下放還有65.6比以前多的比例比例仔細看還多耶絕對仔細看3兆多耶你都是一個大富翁耶你現在一直喊窮報告委員這裡面包含整政府百分之十一的業務馬英九 陳水扁都不要實施那個整個業務都沒有推動了人家1兆多2兆多都實施得好好的你3兆多結果還在裝乞丐 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
12847.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
12863.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
署議長 你是不是都用書面答覆好不好是 好不好 最重要我剛講的最重要 抱歉抱歉最重要 對 我一句話就好最重要的不要把計畫型補助款砍那麼多 帶給地方的你不能夠2900多億 砍了2600多億砍掉十分之九 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
12868.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
12888.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
然後這個影響的是地方很多的建設我剛剛講的然後一般性補助款你怎麼可以把它變成是審查這兩個趕快改回來 謝謝好 處理長 你的答覆就書面去答覆好了OK 謝謝三委員接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
12890.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
12916.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在謝一鳳委員 謝一鳳委員 謝一鳳委員不在何新淳委員 何新淳委員 何新淳委員不在黃宏威委員 黃宏威委員 黃宏威委員不在高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員不在接下來請洪孟凱委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
12919.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
12920.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
好 主席謝謝麻煩請我們主計長跟陳政府次長還有阮次長孟凱文委員好主計長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府 地方政府是一體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
12948.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
12975.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
12978.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
12992.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
12994.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13008.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13009.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13025.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
之前有傳出說財政部有邀22個縣市來政府討論財化法院版的一個部分開會的一個狀況各縣市的反應如何是 我們過去就針對財化法那麼有開過四次會那昨天又開了一次會 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13026.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13044.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13046.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13070.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13071.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13084.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
因為權重的問題這才是關鍵會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13086.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13108.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是 沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13109.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13120.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本 是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那部分那一部分 那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13140.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13167.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13168.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13189.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
因為我知道我們的昭緯還是要配合行政院的政策是 但是因為畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究底我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究底院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13191.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13210.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在炒你相關的這個修正草案所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13211.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13234.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好 我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13234.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13249.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13249.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13274.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多 而且大家都該表達都表達了好 所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好 那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13278.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13302.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我想請教院版的這一個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13302.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13319.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
好 我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓它做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13320.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13340.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
到什麼國民年金到什麼造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好 有這樣確認就好再次感謝 謝謝次長 主席長辛苦 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟愷委員OK 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13344.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13357.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
接下來我們請林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員不在我們請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在我們請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在今日發言登記的委員均已詢答完畢臨時提案一案因為我們在場委員不足我們不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13373.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13389.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
本次會議做如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者依其所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13390.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13414.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
委員陳玉珍 楊瓊英 高金素梅 謝一鳳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢疑並列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理我們今天的會議到此為止本期宣布散會 |