| IVOD_ID |
16964 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16964 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-20T08:34:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-20T11:40:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:05:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d54f5580a36c7ffd6a0c3b8ce0ecced1b0aa126c40303dc277b4e0ff8a14a2c355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:35 - 11:40:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1548.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1550.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初期委員7人已足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1553.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1574.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期外交及國防委員會第五次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十月十六日星期四上午九十至十一十二分地點紅樓三零一會議室出席委員陳俊宇等九人列席委員賴士寶等九人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1576.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1591.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
請教委員黃仁、沈博洋、列席人員、外交部部長林佳龍及所屬人員、主席王釗及委員定語報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二、邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況並被質詢外交部部長林佳龍報告委員陳俊宇等12人質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1592.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1622.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
均有外交部部長林佳榮、歐洲司司長黃軍耀、北美司司長王良玉及領事事務局局長鄭振勇等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員黃仁、沈伯陽、林益君、王宏威所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請外交部與二周內已書面答覆本會前提委員並附資本會委員另指定期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1624.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1647.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告請建國造原型原型建海測執行現況及因應作為並請台灣國際造船股份有限公司董事長列席並備執行宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1650.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1659.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員徐巧欣徐委員以及我們國防部部長顧立雄顧部長副參謀總長執行官黃志偉上將常務次長楊基榮中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1677.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1703.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
全民防衛動員署 李定宗 李署長總督察長 市總督察長 盧建忠 盧中將參事 石文榮 石中將政務辦公室 孫立芳 孫主任政治作戰局 史順文 史局長軍備局 副局長 王德本 王副局長主計局 謝祺賢 謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1708.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1727.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
軍醫局蔡建松蔡局長戰略規劃司黃文啟黃司長資源規劃司藍靜婷藍司長法律事務司吳義勝吳司長整合評估司趙建國副司長國防採購事趙雅萍趙主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1734.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1757.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
人事參謀次長是助理次長曾安國 曾少將情報參謀次長是謝日生 謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威 連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔 李次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山 謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1763.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1788.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部蕭淵泉蕭參謀長憲兵指揮部文念忠文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1790.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1813.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
資通電軍指揮部 周文祥 周參謀長軍事情報局 李永康 執行長電訊發展室 吳永衍 副主任國防大學 李承忠 李教育長國家中山科學研究院 李士強 李院長台船董事長 陳建宏 陳董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1827.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1835.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
本日會議邀請國防部長顧立雄報告潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況以及因應作為並備質詢現在請顧部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1848.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1872.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席 各位委員先進今天自外交及國安委員會實施潛艦國造公開專案報告承蒙各位委員對於潛艦國造各項指導與潛艦預算支持再次表達誠摯敬意與謝忱潛艦國造原型艦進入海上測試階段10月13日已互大院實施機密專報就原型艦測試進度及後續海測規劃實施說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1876.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1893.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
為保護精品資訊本日將針對可公開說明內容向委員報告海軍將按部就班循序漸進在符合安全與品質之前提下完成全艦性能驗證以滿足海軍操作需求與作戰性能 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1893.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1910.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
本案為國家重大軍事投資建案依法受大院委員監督其透過本次報告讓大院委員及國人了解潛艦國造整體進度並請各位委員指導與支持接續由海軍向各位委員提出專案報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1925.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1952.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
潛艦國造原型艦海測執行的現況以及因應作為的專案報告主席各位委員先進潛艦國造第三階段後續艦的籌建也經大院決議凍結預算50%待原型艦海測通過並向大院委員實施解凍報告或同意後時可動之原舊海昆號目前測試的情形以及後續的規劃提出專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1953.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1959.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
1.背景原型艦自109年11月起開工完成博港測試的階段114年6月17日進入海上測試階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1964.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1984.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
而原型艦海上測試執行的概況原型艦細採漸進式構型延改的策略需長時間調校裝備及逐項審認驗證且測試及早發掘問題協同台船與原廠共同解決海軍依法一約負責專案管理的履約督導與監照 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1986.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2009.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
為達品質與安全 審慎規劃測試的次序客棧執行潛航測試前的整備以及安全評估與達到潛航安全無餘條件後及進行後續的海上測試浮航測試執行概況海測依序區分為浮航測試 潛水潛航以及深水潛航三個階段逐步來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2011.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2040.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這張圖表顯示的是三個海測階段測試的原則跟方向並不包括所有的項目跟性能的參數的測試那在扶航部分主要的目的是驗證推進動力跟操控能力的一個檢測那主要要備變的條件包含裝備的備變細薄試車是完成基本航行的條件達成然後我們進入潛水潛航的階段潛水潛航主要的目的是驗證下潛上浮的能力還有主機充電的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2040.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2065.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
條件是水密驗證完成自動充電功能完成還有載台整合的系統可以安全的操作深水潛航的部分主要目的是耐壓測試在不同的深度做對大顯身做耐壓測試然後各項裝備系統的性能驗證要達到條件是戰系整合的檢測系統功能的驗證以及備援機制測試的完成請郭次業 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2068.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2086.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
依序報告執行的概況在福昂測試部分參考各國極尖龍極艦海測的經驗專案團隊需先確認推進動力系統及操控能力符合建造的設計與達到裝備備變及海測安全評估條件無虞經國外專業顧問評估認證後及早安排海上測試與發覺問題解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2092.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2108.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
海昆艦在完成安全評估不影響航岸的前提下在今年的6月17日起共執行三次的浮航測試實施推進動力、航移、通信、艦船操縱以及潛望鏡等各系統海上的動態組合功能驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2109.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2130.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
屋內工程為達成潛航裝備及安全評估所需要的條件防測試後安排今年的7月8號到9月2號進台船的乾屋就艦體工程水密檢驗載台裝備性能校正以及戰鬥系統水線以下裝備檢診等三大類進行細部的調校 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2132.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2155.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
潛航前整備的現況為達潛航安全的目標海軍專案團隊積極投入協助台船做攻向的整合依測試程序所列標準逐項實施驗測限制重點於主機與電力管理系統及整合式載台管理系統等兩項新能加速完成潛航前的整備管制調效後達到潛航的必要條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2157.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2173.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在主機與電力管理系統部分為大艦船動力穩定需完成主機自動充電功能的驗證以減少人為操作的風險增加潛航安全係數課證執行多部主機測試者前置作業以利後續自動充電功能的驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2174.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2194.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主機自動充電功能驗證涉及多方不同的廠家共同配合來施作協調廠家排程至增加測試的時間並非遭遇技術瓶頸先以協調各廠家完成後續測試期程的調整以加速完成多部主機自動充電的功能驗證整合式載台管理系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2196.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2215.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
IPMS為高度自動化及整合性的系統具備執行載台裝備遠端操作與監控的功能目前全項系統具執行連測程序持續實施軟體修改及驗測現在台船已增派國內軟體工程師協同原廠共同作業加速完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2217.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2231.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
後續海上測試規劃完成海上測試前整備的條件之後由專案團隊國外專業的顧問以及接見官兵三方共同評估與達到潛航安全條件後安排海上的測試分數如後 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2233.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2261.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
在扶航測試部分目前已經執行了三次接續實施扶航性能的調效驗證完成後進入潛水潛航的階段潛水潛航測試主要執行艦船操縱、徵收裝備、緊急功能及戰鬥管理系統等類別的功能驗證深水潛航測試主要執行不同深度的艦船操縱、艦船性能、緊急功能、徵收裝備及戰鬥管理等系統類別的功能驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2262.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2267.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
國造潛艦立即裝備籌貨建造組裝到測試驗證面臨首次造艦的挑戰屢次遭遇問題均能逐一克服並從中累積經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2276.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2300.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
此後續艦得以重新評估與精進 奠定成功的基石感謝大院的支持與指導 國防部有信心完成原型艦的建造將岸部舊班循序漸進 加速達成海上測試目標海軍蓄衣法一約履願 要求台船於交艦前完成缺失的改正最終在符合安全與品質之前提下 完成全艦性能驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2301.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2308.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
以滿足海軍操作的需求與作戰性能以上報告 敬請各位委員先進支持與指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2317.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2334.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2352.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2369.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
副部長好部長潛艦國造從一開始到現在可以說是這個錯假消息不斷甚至還有人會問說造艦這麼的困難為什麼要自己來造呢為什麼不直接向國外來購買呢我們來看這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2370.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2373.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們造劍確實是非常的困難可是我們發現要跟國衛來構置這個潛艦更是艱困重重我們可以看到其實從這30年來我們根本買不到這個潛艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2389.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2390.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以其實我們從中華民國海軍潛艦軍購大事記裡面可以看到其實從1930年代以來我們多次的向國外購買潛艦可是始終是遭遇到阻礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2406.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2410.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
像過去我們曾經跟德國、英國、義大利甚至美國、荷蘭、俄羅斯、阿根廷、日本、西班牙都曾經要來接洽、要構置這個潛艦可是就是因為國際政治的因素、外交的壓力所以很多其實是沒有辦法成交的從這個簡報上面我們看到這個紅色的大叉叉其實就是我們曾經接洽過可是沒有成功的這個部分目前僅有少數的幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2437.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2443.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
1964年我们跟意大利购得了海舱艇队1969年同样向意大利购得海角跟海龙号这三艘潜舰其实都已经年代久远也都已经除役了1973年美国移交的海师号跟海豹号虽然高龄52岁了可是还在服役当中1987年荷兰我们取得了建龙级的海龙号跟海虎号 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2462.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2476.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那這之後的三十年我們無論怎麼樣嘗試跟其他的國家購買新造或是二手的這個潛艦其實都因為國際的壓力所以都沒有辦法成功那就是要面對現實我們也有國防的這個需求所以我們沒有選擇我們只好自己來建造這個潛艦那從有到無其實要培養這個自主設計跟這個製造的能力我們必須要確保這個水下的戰力不再受制於人 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2491.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2493.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那為什麼我說的這麼一大片那除了就是說為什麼我們要自己來建造這個潛艦那再來還有一點就是說我剛有提到我們從有到無培養這個自主設計跟製造這個能力其實這是一個很困難的一個過程那當然我有看到就是說我們有排定了這個之前的這個預期的這個進程我想請問部長我們當初排定這個預期進程是不是過於樂觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2518.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2535.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們本來是2025年4月要進入SAT的階段進入海測的階段2025年9月完成海測2025年10月要完成這個交界我們是從有到無整個過程我們是很多因素我們都沒有考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2537.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2549.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
比如說剛剛我有看到你們在報告的時候有提到比如說像主機自動充電功能驗證設計多方不同廠家共同配合施作協調廠家排程制增加測試的時間像這些多重的因素當初我們在設定預期的進程的時候是都沒有考慮進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2555.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2573.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
4月份 短短吧 4月份才要進入海測階段我們11月份就要完成交建當初我們設定這個進程是不是太過於樂觀其實像這個我們要協調不同的廠家共同配合不同廠家可能都是來自於國外嘛敲大家的時間然後就會增加這個測試的這個當然會增加這個測試的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2577.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2585.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以現在大家都說我們這個交建延宕是不是我們當初在預期進程的這個設定其實就出了這個問題請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2588.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2617.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我想主要就是說我們在整個建造的過程當中就有關相關的裝備也好或者是這些原廠的技協要來協助也好可能他們沒有辦法說完全第一時間就能夠來配合所以在這個部分確實在這個建造的過程當中顯示我們這個時程的這個安排沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2618.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2627.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
如果我們所想像的說我們說誰叫誰到那確實是在這個部分上面面臨了一些時程的延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2628.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2652.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以說嘛 所以我們在設定這個預測我有看你們這個流程這整8個月從海測到交建只有8個月的時間實際上你看我們的進程我們6月份才進入海測然後10月13號才進行完成三次的這個浮航測試那到底潛航這個潛水潛航跟深水潛航的測試什麼時候能完成目前都還沒有時間表嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2652.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2660.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
對不對我看部長好像也不太能夠回答這個問題因為還有很多都還有未確定的因素存在對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2661.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2682.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們現在後續就是說要以潛水潛航的這個標準來再進一步進行這個湖航測試那麼針對這個湖航測試如果能夠通過我們就會再進行這個潛水潛航的測試一切以這個安全跟品質為上 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2684.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2704.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對 我們理解 我們都可以知道說安全無虞還有這個品質確保這是最首要的只是說當初給的施程可能太於樂觀所以2025年11月要交建我想已經不可能了那我再請教部長像之前我們應該可以理解其實有很多的國家其實就算是有過經驗的國家他們在造建整個過程平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2710.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2724.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
從一開始到交艦都是花了多少年的時間平均大約我們這個時程會太快了一點我們當初訂定我們是五年多嘛對不對其他的國家呢到底照一部艦艇到其他國家到底要花多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2725.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2747.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我想主要是要看它是一個成熟量產的還是一個首次研製的如果是首次的話以其他國家的經驗來看的話大概都要耗時7年到甚至有高達16年所以7年到16年我們怎麼會有勇氣就是5年多我們就要交件呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2748.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2770.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以委員剛的指教我想是對的我們確實在建造的時程的安排上面沒有去理解現實上面事實上會面臨很多困難尤其是我們的國情所面臨的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2772.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2780.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
裝備上的籌貨或者是一些原廠技協人員來安排這些等等都 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2782.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2807.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
在這個海軍在報告過程當中可以看到這樣子的一些困難在時間上面在籌貨裝備的這個部分上面我在想籌貨裝備這部分應該也受到很大的壓力吧是不是所以我們都有很多的備援備援的一種思考就是說如果面臨到困難我們可以轉個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2809.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2828.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
請求其他的這個籌貨的途徑這樣子對啊 其他的國家7到16年才完成一艘潛艦那我們卻是要短短的時間說我們有能力完成所以當初這個時程的訂定其實就是錯誤的那再來還有一點我也有看到其他的國家那其他計算是有造艦經驗的國家你看一下瑞典 美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2829.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2850.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
現在瑞典它這個布萊金額級的潛艦它因為新技術跟這個成本的這個關係你看它本來是2024年要交艦可是可能要到2028年或2031年才有辦法交付這個延宕的時間其實也是很長的像美國的維吉尼亞級的核能攻擊潛艦也是它可能會在延後 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2851.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2872.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
兩到三年像美國哥倫比亞級的核潛艦也是預定是2027年10月要交建可能延後一年或一年多的這個時間所以到底我們本來是11月要交建那可能會不會會類似他們這樣子可能一年的一年一年多有可能嗎我們會盡量努力要盡快我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2878.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2902.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
歷經了很多挑戰我想確實是有落後在海上測試我覺得還是不過還是以安全無虞平直確保為首要這點還是必須是還是要按部就本來做就是說我們當初定的時程造成後續有很多的留言就是說我們可能沒辦法完成很多的這個謠言出現了打擊了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2904.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2926.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個信心我想這個部分可能之後我們真的是要非常的注意這個樂觀的這個狀態好那再來的話我想請教一下那從六月份開始呢有大量的簡體字的賬號然後製作圖卡跟這個短影那集中操作中我們的錢就是不會錢啊我們的這個這個挺體呢其實是變形的那我們很知道的都是來自中國的很典型的認知作戰的這個手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2927.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2945.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那像這種假消息在外流傳那我們有沒有跟速發部跟其他的機構就是機關合作對於這個假消息我們要如何去澄清那如何去下架這些假消息尤其是我們這個前件涉及這個機密有很多部分你無法公開澄清那我們要如何處理呢很多東西你不能說嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2948.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2965.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
確實是有這樣子的一個有關涉及機密範疇我們沒有辦法回應的問題但是如果不涉及機密的範疇的話我們現在應該都會立即新聞稿來澄清應出這叫馬上來做澄清不要讓他去發酵 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2967.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2981.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
但是有一些相關的商源 機敏資訊等等的這些是受法規的約束的我們可能有些部分是也沒辦法對溝所以有些部分會覺得那個啞巴吃黃蓮你沒有辦法去做解釋會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2982.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3011.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
會有這種狀況嗎因為我們要避免遭有性人士刺探或侵搜啦所以有些部分還是要保持這個他的機敏性這樣子那對於像這個很多大部分都是來自於中國的這個認知作戰中國出產國內的這個協力者呢然後接力來做這個流傳像這個的話我們沒有法令上面的問題嗎沒有辦法來做處理嗎像下架啦或是有一些行者 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3012.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3030.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我想我們現在已經跟海軍有做過一個密切討論以後會就是我們現在就區隔就是說什麼是機敏不是機敏這一點部分我們把它在這個內容上我還是沒辦法得到的但有涉及到相關這些假訊息的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3031.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3046.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
不涉及精明的法文之類我們迅速的予以回應來防堵這些認知作戰的作為這樣子所以在國立的這個協力者都沒有任何刑法問題嗎如果他們就是這樣子把這假消息給流傳出去我們一點辦法都沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3047.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3060.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我想立即的這個回應是我們現在我們只能做到回應所以他們這些人再怎麼流傳其實也都沒有任何辦法可能相關的這些假訊息如果涉及有違法的問題的話這個由相關的執法機關來進行應處有要補充的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3069.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3091.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
委員好 我是光部發言人針對這個議題我們確實是非常關注因為所有認知作戰操作基本上它都是有跡可循的如同委員所說的那麼如何去綿密的監控它認知作戰發展的一個趨勢它對方放假訊息的一個方向以及它攻擊的重點這個是反制假訊息的第一個要項 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3092.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3102.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們從這個點來著手然後針對他的攻擊的內容來去做一個澄清甚至在必要的時候以事先以主動的這種說明的作為來去破解他的一個攻擊 以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3103.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3131.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
OK 因為我是覺得說像台灣是應該是全世界受到錯腳消息攻擊最多的這個國家像這個部分的話我是希望說各個部會都能夠強硬起來尤其我是覺得一直都沒有聽到他這樣說他這些人到底有沒有刑罰的這個部分就譬如說這些人覺得我去流傳這個東西反正我打擊的國家我打擊的台灣好像也沒有關係所以這個部分我想這個部分大家應該要繼續來做這個加強跟努力OK 好 以上謝謝是 應該要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3134.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3142.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好謝謝謝謝羅委員下面請馬文君委員謝謝主席麻煩請部長海軍參謀長台船董事長謝謝是馬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3159.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3162.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
部長好部長我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次遣件進度的一個公開的報告很重要的是因為其實我們這一艘遣件已經做好了那在現在我們已經要做測試的階段然後也受到非常多的國人的關注而且這個也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘的後續件 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3187.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3198.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
他需要動用到的這個預算所以我們希望其實可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院其實說明清楚因為這樣大家才有辦法審我想提供一個相關的資料在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長這支光電請望靜什麼時候才到的報表員 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3213.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3230.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那個光電潛望鏡什麼時候到的其實已經之前就到什麼時候是之前時間的部分我這邊就是說我現在手上資料我要另外再去已經到那因為這個到料之後他中間有一個模組經過測試是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3231.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3234.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
沒關係 參謀長 因為在過去我們時時因為現在大家都說這個有什麼錯假訊息啦 或者故意打擊啊 或者什麼其實現在已經到這個階段已經沒有什麼打擊 因為你通通做好了嘛其實暴露消息最多的是誰 是我們的海軍前顧問 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3254.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3258.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
暴露消息最多的是誰台船公司還有我們的國防部其實都把有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3269.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3273.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這幾年其實宣布最多包括最近你的所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法去通過測試只有一個人知道這個很特別因為在我們的過程當中連國防部長都是兩個禮拜或者是他只知道進度總統也都是接受這樣子的報告這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些可是我們看到這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3299.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3301.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
維感是今年才來的本來應該一月要來而且延後後來還延後了四個月可是我們看一下在這一個週刊那時候趙天寧委員特別對這個週刊說我們到去海倉場的時候我們看到了潛望鏡魚雷管要看什麼軍方都給我們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3327.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3333.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題當時沸沸揚揚拿來做政治操作那時候的潛望鏡根本沒有來給我們看了什麼東西可是他居然可以公開的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3344.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3348.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊到底誰在認知作戰到底誰在放錯假訊息這個要不要查剛剛你們說要查要不要查這是第一點所以我們今天安排公開預算是因為你都已經做好了你也不會受到干擾你來自於哪裡我想清清楚楚這是第一點另外我們現在進度比較慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3372.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3374.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
現在還有這些測試的問題這個我們尊重專業我們也希望大家按部就班來我們也提到安全跟他的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量今天你如果是為了滿足某些人他的好大喜功也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3390.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3400.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
或者滿足他的歷史定位也好或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度那一點意義都沒有因為他花的是人民納稅錢如果你今天要造遊艇你自己花錢那當然沒問題可是你要造的是武器裝備而且牽涉到所有我們海軍官兵的他們的生命安危所以安全我們要求那我想在這裡先請教一下這個對台船有沒有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3418.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3420.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
剛剛有特別提到說我們現在好像講得很樂觀我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀我們在提醒的當下反而我們會被攻擊說我們在打擊所以現在才說其他國家都有他的困難點這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3439.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3451.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
之前就認同了我想在這裡先請教部長因為部長您是法律人出身的就這個部分我們跟台船的合約如果11月他沒有辦法一約來交件的話他會收到多少的罰款每日計劃應該是我的理解應該是19萬他有上限嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3464.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3476.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
應該是 我的了解是合約沒有有一個上限的規範是不是請採購室再說明一下向委員報告 有上限 就是建造款的20%20%是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3480.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3488.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
百分之二十是多少193億的百分之二十百分之三二十差不多將近四十億將近四十億所以我們當時簽約的內容就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3496.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3500.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響我覺得這個可能整個合約因為我看我們國防部簽訂的合約其實有很多都有很大的問題我們也希望台船其實因為他們也第一次做怎麼樣其實把它做好可是不要欺騙國人因為我們過去我們現在再回過頭來看我們每一次都說有公檢有沒有都是定時的有召開公檢會 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3523.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3538.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
對不對那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題完全按照進度對不對跟委員報告那整個國造前期分成兩個部分一個是建造跟測試那我們的建造是按節點 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3539.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3552.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那現在是因為測試的部分的確有一些裝備在測試的時候因為我們有驗收的責任所以每發現問題就要去衍生的工程的一些問題都要克服所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3555.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3557.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那我們在過去公檢的這個過程當中其實是沒有問題的在這裡我有幾個問題希望部長還有海軍參謀長還有海軍或者相關的包括台船你們可以提出來因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明說哪些裝備其實它的來源是哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3578.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3586.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
報章雜誌其實很多啦包括魚雷管從韓國走私來的我不知道這是真的還是假的如果是真的非常非常離譜可是我們完全從來沒有看過我們國防部也好或者台船也好或者相關的單位其實針對這個部分去做一個相關的處置或調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3596.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3599.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那我想在這裡要有幾個問題請我們部長還有我們參謀長還有我們海軍還有台船其實做出明確的報告比如說像我們所有的裝備過去我們主次裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可而且我們還有備援就是至少都有三個來源以上這是黃曙光前召集人講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3622.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3622.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備廠商原廠的保證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3631.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3637.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
有沒有具備保證書這個部分這個問題因為其實我們曾經介紹接貨檢舉有一些內部的人士他們說有些東西來源不明就是他沒有合格的保證書所以一到貨的時候這個裝備到的時候就要求承辦的相關人員他去簽收很多人根本不敢接下這個責任所以有很多人離職了這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3661.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3662.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
你要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3663.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3669.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
跟委員報告所有的裝備到接收前在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試做過測試之後才會送來它有保證書嗎都會有保證書嗎我現在要求第一點就是這些裝備有沒有保證書它的來源進口的來源其實因為有進關的話有進入我們的海關的話它其實都會有相關的程序這一點我們要求你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3692.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3695.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
公開的證明所有相關的這些組織裝備的來源好不好都有合格證明你要確認喔有合格證明喔FAT的測試報告是符合我們要求的標準測試報告跟合格證明是不是保證原廠保證書是一樣的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3709.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3713.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我要的是原廠的保證書因為你們都說符合所有的輸出裝備這個部分有哪些如果沒有也請提供好不好你不用告訴我們是來自於哪裡可是如果有沒有的請你們提供出來另外我們一直講到因為這一次在整個測試的過程當中有兩項可能還在就是要執行的部分第一個就電力系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3737.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3749.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
第二個就是我們的整合式載台IPMS這個部分那我想要請教因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚就在錄音檔裡面有提到我們的主機是卡車卡車的在這裡要說明嗎你們有看過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3764.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3778.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個當初整個的構型的動力都是按照當初都是選商然後也經過我們都是找具備輸出許可參謀長是潛艦的主機他需要的就是潛艦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3779.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3794.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
主機他使用的就是這個因為他有壓力他有下潛他有很多跟我們的路上的尤其是車輛他是完全不一樣的你們在這裡我們要求因為你已經做好了而且你已經在測試了請給國人一個明確的保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3799.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3810.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個東西是不是潛艦用的主機或者甚至我們還接到訊息不管是卡車或者甚至有可能是巴士並聯的主機 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3814.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3823.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎它是經過延售、改裝、構改以後它拿來當成我們潛艦用的主機 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3829.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3831.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
不管是卡車或者是巴士並聯這六個主機請明確的證實因為你們一定可以看到來源你們一定知道它是什麼功能使用的主機請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的因為你們當時是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3849.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3858.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所有的包括李忠孝那時候當海軍司令的時候他告訴我們所有人包括立法院你在動用預算的時候你說所有的主次裝備的紅區裝備也好所有主次裝備你們所有的輸出許可都拿到了那表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機如果不是我們希望是不是卡車的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3872.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3886.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
或者甚至是巴士並聯用在戰車上面的到底是不是請你們用你們因為我們信任你們包括部長因為部長是法律背景出身這個部分是做什麼用的台廠更清楚董事長要講一下嗎是車輛用的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3893.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3899.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
報告委員 這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的大廠所以它的產品線很多所以我想一些誤解是來自這裡今天如果你賣任何的東西你賣電池也好 你賣什麼東西也好它就是有符合嘛你是要3號 4號 你是要幾號那很清楚 它很多種我知道可是我要在這裡請你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3921.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3924.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
做出承諾跟保證的這是什麼樣的主機是潛艦用的嗎是船艦用的嗎對 這個是船艦用的主機你保證對 因為我們他會有來源嘛 對不對你會有合格的證書嘛這個部分其實如果提供給立法院我相信沒有問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3941.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3960.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
應該是沒有問題沒有問題就是它的主機的它的來源還有相關的證明文件好不好當初是因為這個輸出許可的問題我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機所以才會用數量比較多的功率比較小的主機 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3961.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3965.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為你是後來接的在你前面已經換過兩個我們現在要的只是請部長海軍參謀長還有台船董事長台船相關的單位你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件就是說這個主機它就是潛艦要用的而不是卡車也不是其他的戰車並聯的這樣的裝置好不好什麼時候可以提供給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3991.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4002.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們回去準備一下大概多久 一個時間點 好不好大概一兩週左右好 那就一週 好不好因為台尼只是提供資料而已 謝謝好 謝謝馬偉雲的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4021.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4025.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
好 接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢好 主席有請部長請顧部長參謀長請參謀長還有台川董事長台川董事長是是 陳委員好部長好 各位同仁好我今天在這邊用一個工程的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4046.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4072.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
来跟各位做一些观念上的沟通不同的角度来督导事情是有不同的面向我们用一个奇程各位来看一下各位看这个奇程这都是根据公开的我们只是用比较细的分析那么建造的流程中间第一个安全是不可以妥协的性能如果有缺点可以讨论可以精进 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4074.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4100.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
其成你要有个tolerance所谓的节点绝对不是固定一个点这里面涉及到供应链的厂商交货它延迟了当然台船要承担所有责任来谈因为部长您是法律人我在这边提出一个就是过去在第一条船台船前面跟它的供应商供应链签约的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4101.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4119.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
都说这个拿到出口许可但是通常出口许可有但书我这个出口许可不保证你15年在过程中间这个供应商被其他的大厂商并购了并购了以后这家供应商的专案经理被换掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4119.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4142.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那么大厂商呢一约会执行但是其成他不背负责任那么罚则罚不到他也就是说所有的出口许可在合约里面他都有但书千万不要因为某种因为因为国际政治因为国内这个比方政坛改组什么什么因此我这个出口许可失效了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4143.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4172.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
在出口许可的弹书里面海军的律师台船的律师跟供应商的律师要共同掌握这个节点这个才会影响到你测试的过程不是工程的进度是因为交货的文件时间内容有所改变所以站在支持潜舰国造我想国民党在野党执政党大家的方向是要降低风险 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4174.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4181.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
安全不能妥协性能可以研讨缺点可以改进时程你要有一个预量有个tolerance |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4183.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4208.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那么这张图表就看起来我们第一条船现在还有很多测试的项目要在做那么像在水面浮航的时候请问是用电瓶推进呢还是启动了主机呢还是有试验它的充放电这个过程以专业的角度他们都在做那么下潜以后要测试哪些东西 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4209.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4229.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
提供一个参考意见就是说以这个时程来看后面的7条船这个时间太乐观也许前面的长官有点觉得这个太有把握但是你要把期程放宽所以15年到20年这个预量台船要来掌握海军要能掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4230.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4259.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那另外一个就是说当初宽估的价钱这么长的期程中间那我们采购的价钱美金跟台币的汇率是固定价款吗还是通膨都能掌握所以这个预量调节空间海军跟台船自己要掌握那这个东西都影响到你每一个单位进程的节点同时在第一条船交船以后海军回去还要做水下许多的测试噪音测试那这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4261.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4263.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
消遲線圈 那是下一個階段我們再來談的 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4264.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4291.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那么有很多的性能在交建以后持续发展过程中台船要交的是包括维修保养所有的技术手册要交给海发那同时在海军的潜修中心要建立基本的库储量不能任何一个小的维修要回台船所以这些东西在第一条船交船的时候程序上都要做完那这个东西是花很多时间是属于工程跟管理的部门 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4292.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4297.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那在这个图上看到的就是说如果这个到20这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4299.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4323.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
35年38年是做不完的话你都已经2040年因为你每一条船的大修要回台船你的中继维修要回台船海砖的干污有限所以当船交到第三条以后就永远有一条船在施工建造永远有一条船在大修这个希望台船以工程管理的角度宽估最后一个就是在测试过程中间我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4324.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4352.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
强调了安全绝不能妥协在过去国外有很多潜舰的意外事件我希望纳入考虑这个在2003年中共海军361民级潜舰在做潜航的时候呼吸管航行那启动的主机就进气阀故障没有打开两分钟把潜舰内的空气抽光 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4353.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4380.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
全船的人員通通都犧牲掉了後來中共海軍做了一個很嚴肅的檢討因此我們這個船在做水面測試潛航測試不是光潛望鏡要用呼吸管航行充放電那這個非常重要所以我們站在支持的角度看騎乘都是可以調節可以控制不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4381.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4402.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
过于乐观现在不要去讲节点是不是11月来明年我从另外一个角度看如果你能够在六个月内掌握你自己的调节空间我觉得国人都可以接受风险不要国人承担技术台船要掌握专案的管理海军要控制所有的装备规格 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4403.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4431.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
都有原厂的保证但是出口许可里面后续料配件的持续供应你要去看它的弹数会不会说卖断了以后是另外一家我不管这些都是从法律的角度来看那么最后一个图就是说潜航潜望舰是逐至深潜不要一家伙先说我潜50公尺我就要看你呼吸管航行因为361潜舰就是在呼吸管航行出了一个状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4433.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4447.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們是支持的前望鏡深度航行要含呼吸管各位看這張圖這個就是到了前望鏡深度了但是呼吸管還沒上來你要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4448.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4471.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
柴油发电机你的进气阀要打开如果有海浪过大它会瞬间关闭那这个时候你自动控制你要停主机不然它就会把你的这个空气抽光这个安全措施是不能够妥协的以上我提出建议从工程的角度从专案管理的角度从台船施工技术角度我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4472.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4487.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
各家的專業精神要能夠整合而不是從個別點去切入那麼以上我看看部長您這邊有什麼指導我想剛剛陳委員指教的應該都很正確我想我們會依照這樣來辦理台川董事長您這邊呢是 謝謝委員指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4494.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4515.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們會配合海軍好好這樣辦參謀長這邊抱歉 謝委員知道那針對期程跟預算部分我們都會做在合理的一個推估然後來確保任務可以完成我們大家努力共同希望看這個案子能夠順利能夠達成所有國人的期望謝謝各位謝謝 謝謝陳偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4523.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4526.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢謝主席有請國防部長還有海軍參謀長及海軍參事及台船董事長請部長 海軍參謀長還有台船董事長黃委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4557.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4566.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這個比較嚴肅的一個問題就是海軍包含我們台船 瞞天過海欺騙了國防部長 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4568.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4594.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
部長你感受怎麼樣你被瞞住了台船在過去裡面所發出來的新聞稿包含我們海軍發出來的新聞稿到現在為什麼我們的海昆潛艦到現在你11月份都不敢保證而且你特別說對媒體說挑戰性非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4595.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4613.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
非常大是悲哀還是樂觀部長你回答一下科文委員報第一個就是說每週這個海軍都會海船都會來跟我報告這是第一點所以相關的這些面臨到的一些狀況他們都會跟我如實的說明這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4614.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4629.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
第二點我想現在我們的報告中已經說明了就是說沒有碰到技術的瓶頸但是有關這些裝備的進行調教需要給我們一些時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4630.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4652.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以我相信我們還是有能力來建造完成只是說原來所設想的這些節點我們特別在測試的這個階段可能還需要更多的一點時間本席認同本席認同要確保安全再走下一步今天指出的騎乘的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4654.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4682.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就要挑出来海军必须要跟国人说明台船你们才几月份从几月份开始发布新闻稿对外其成没有变而且可以如期的交件可是一而再再而三上次媒体问我就已经问了三个问题第一个是什么问题就是我们的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4684.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4709.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
扶航測試第二是潛水潛艦的測試還有深水潛艦的測試這個根本11月份根本沒有辦法交艦的你們還對外說謊瞞了國防部長部長不得不對外是具有相當大的挑戰常務長 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4711.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4731.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
還有我們的三四你們報告裡面所講的具體都有道理可是潛艦問題就是大在這裡你潛艦的測試深水的測試都沒有辦法等一下我再告訴你們按照國際條例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4734.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4745.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所測試的期程你們既然是6到7個月就可以了這個報告裡面到底是蠻天過海的告訴給國人 欺騙國人嗎你們回答一下這個問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4748.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4773.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
委員好我是海軍參謀長那要跟委員凱切的說明的確當初我們在測試的六個月的時間安排的確是有過分的樂觀那實際要依照實際的測試狀況跟這個所以不要為了預算不要為了預算我們並沒有檔但是問題是海昆艦的原型艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4774.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4803.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
連一個建都沒有完成的時候後續的預算裡面我們要如何編對國人有什麼交代你們過去裡面媒體都在罵我們說我們是潛艦殺手結果今天我們講的就是這個問題嘛就是這個問題嘛我們不要騙了國人趕快預算編一編台船隨便亂七八糟的說話等一下台船我特別要點到你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4806.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4833.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們服務航的測試因為基礎的階段容易發現和解決問題所以通常只會使用一到四個禮拜但海空軍在階段已經超過了四個多月第二潛艦潛航的測試大約需要一到三個月第三深水潛艦測試由於風險高每一次深潛在周密的準備後 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4834.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4850.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
事后检查也耗时通常要两到六个月,完成所有的海事包含行政作业耗时大约半年到一年,但是原形件的时间通常会在一到两年的时间。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4851.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4868.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以我們按照過去我們的國際柴電潛艦 原型艦 海測時間的長短的案例第一個 澳大利亞的克林斯基 約三年 實際上長達七年第二 日本的艙 龍級 約一年韓國的這個 三級 約兩年印度 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4877.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4894.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
由一起的約一年到六個月德國212A約一年所以這一系測試你們雖然要六到七個月這個是欺騙國人啊台船你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4897.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4918.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
跟委員報告一下我們手艘船台船是很努力在趕工從建造的時候就開始所以這是為什麼我們在COVID-19疫情期間人員的交流在跟國際上或是國內人員的工作上面我們就是用趕工方式才沒有受到太大影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4919.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4944.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
後來二屋戰爭發生供應業也受到影響我們也是用趕工的方式所以現在回答您問題在這個測試的階段我們也是盡量這樣做只是說因為有一些因素譬如說剛剛報告過的在廠商外國寄寫的時程的配合上面因為現在開始是不同的裝備之間互相的整合的部分所以不是單一裝備測試好就好因此如果發生問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4948.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4974.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
要不然你們隨便亂發新聞稿幹什麼為了我們的預算趕快編出來你們好做事問題是我們是在監督預算要讓你們確實確保能夠把原型件做好給國人的交代後續件我們才可以編預算但是今天的媒體排山倒海說我們在擋預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4976.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5004.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
剛剛我也特別有講了嘛我們要確保安全我們一定要再走下一步但是我們要對國人要有交代你們台船今年的2月發表新聞稿表示今年4月會如期的海撤海撤這是你們說的1至9月份完成海撤11月份交線也是你們說的表示認為台船海撤的時間大概需要6個月而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5005.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5030.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
你們都沒有按照國際標準啊剛剛我也講了在國際級的標準裡面的裁定的這個潛艦都必須要嚴格執行而且期程你們都要規定的按照不是隨便講說你跟海軍跟我們國防部然後呢對我們的預算裡面再來編要求編 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5033.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5038.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
結果編了之後呢你們根本原型件都沒有辦法完成嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5039.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5066.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
報告委我們就像剛剛講的在建造的時候跟海設的時候一樣我們會估的比一般國外的時間快一點因為我們願意趕工的關係所以這個而且您看就像您的資料所顯示每一個國家他的時間也是長短不一所以這個是為什麼當時我們看這個還在這個最後這個建造階段我們看到事情是沒有太大的問題所以按照原來估的是一個比較樂觀的時間這樣是沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5068.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5090.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那開始測試之後發現一些我想我這邊敬告包含海警我一定要敬告你們一下沒有確定的不要對外發布新聞稿不要為了預算的編列結果你發布新聞稿之後你們做不到我上個月上上個月媒體採訪我的時候我就提出這個測試的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5093.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5114.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
測試的問題絕對沒有辦法兩個月內完成11月份交件這是很明確的連我一般老百姓都知道還騙你們自己本身國防部 台船 竟然還騙國人這是一個非常嚴重的問題另外就是 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5116.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5137.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
還有我們的董事長關於我們整合在整合室的在台管理系統我們根據海軍上週的新聞稿和國防部的今天的報告海昆線現階段正在進行主機與電力管理系統及整合在台管理系統的調教那一般而言整合室 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5138.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5158.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
在台管理系統的軟體在破崗測試中的吸破測試試驗得到結果後會做最後一次軟體更新和參數調整之後為了確保接下來的海測在穩定的配置下進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5159.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5188.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
讓海策發現的問題可以被準確歸因和附現這個時候會固定住整合是在台管理系統的軟體版本和參數為何在新聞稿今天報告都提到正在實施軟體修改及驗試而且還說增派軟體工程師皆同延長共同作業回答一下這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5190.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5218.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
跟委員報告IPMS這個系統它涉及的它是一個高度的自動化跟整合性的一個系統它涉及的傳上很多系統對遠端的遙控跟監視所以它從我們這個測試要從單機開始到單系統針對訊號的格式數值跟正確性都要做確認還有包含它跟保護安全的設計都有關係所以我們一項一項的做測試然後單項系統做完之後才會進到所有系統之間的連測 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5219.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5245.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
整合式在台管理系統是隨時被調教的嗎 被調整的嗎那如果在固定 已經固定了就不能再做一個調整了所以問題在哪裡 來 這個報告給我所以問題就在整合式的在台管理系統有嚴重的錯失 有嚴重的這個缺失這個報告給我 什麼時候什麼時候把這個嚴重的錯失裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5249.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5251.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
要調整完成所有的IPMS系統的訊號格式的測試我們都會繼續執行那要花多少時間我們現在必須跟剛剛委員講的按照安全跟品質的考驗要花多少時間嘛這個是修改以後我們要編預算要對國人交代啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5278.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5304.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
你不要說到時候我發布新聞稿幾月份就用好了那現在我問你要花多少時間現在就很明確的就是一個在台整合式在台管理系統有嚴重的這個做這個嚴重的這個問題那你要花三個月有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5306.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5324.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
跟委員報告 我們整個的這個IPMS的測試已經做過一遍那後來是因為軟體還有一些需要缺改還需要一些調校好 多久 多久時間把這個報告給我好不好我們回去的時候會把這個相關的一個報告那把這個報告給我是 了解好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5331.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5345.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
謝謝本席在這裡宣告因為顧部長自10點10分到12點應供請假本席遵御準假不過等一下讓徐巧欣委員她質詢完畢現在請徐巧欣委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5351.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5373.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
謝謝主席 我們先請這個顧部長還有我們海軍參謀長請部長 海軍參謀長 是的今天媒體報導有提到在我們海軍的大氣海洋局裡面有這個林昌裕的局長要求下屬扶抱預算這件事情請問你們目前有了解跟掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5375.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5400.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
各位委員報告我想這件事情他們海軍已經在進行這個行政調查當中那所以我們會秉持這個無完物中的原則然後來做相關的一些調查那我先說明一下在媒體的這個報導裡面呢是提到在去年5月的時候我們在準備這個國土安全的韌性預算的會議裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5401.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5418.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這一個呢 海軍的大氣海洋局的林昌玉局長呢竟然喔 知道自己的預算其實可以拿到很多第一個 他涉嫌喔 教唆我們的其他的公務人員們 軍人們如何規避審計第二個 他說叫大家預算多寫一點能騙就騙第三個 他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億那我們看到這個新聞的時候我們覺得非常非常的憤怒 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5430.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5434.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們才剛通過這麼多的預算當時只要是好像包含是馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出了一些預算的刪減等等的你們是如何的哭天喊地啊你們是如何的說這些預算我們非常需要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5447.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5451.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
結果原來你們裡面的局長直接講說叫人家預算多寫一點 要騙的然後說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億我先請問一下大氣海洋局在我們任性的這個特別預算裡面他們總共申請了多少費用 幾項計畫韓信財部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5471.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5486.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
請說啊是 鮑威那個就他媒體因為他並沒有跟我們本部有先查詢也沒有跟當事人也先過說過一個查證所以相關的資料我們覺得已經正式的立案我們來做一個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5487.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5503.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
但是我們也初步發覺有些的資訊上面還要更釐清那甚至以這個這個他所提到您剛才所提的這個防疫韌性其實在去年五月份的時候整個這個預算的規劃跟其他的並沒有就是時間節點是有點出入 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5503.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5516.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
他意思是他自己開的嘛不是你跟你們沒關係 他自己開的嘛我剛剛問的問題是說因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了嘛那我要問的是說大氣海洋局他最終跟你們申請的是多少的經費跟幾項計畫 細部的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5519.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5532.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
報表員他大概是主要是因為大氣局他必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的 我知道大概他有三棟的大樓要實施興建大概需要16億左右到17億的預算所以他升幾項計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5535.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5553.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
三項的一個設施三項的設施計畫大概17億左右嘛對不對那17.5億這個數字呢跟報導報導的是相當一致的齁那我必須要講請你們提供相關的計畫這三項計畫的完整的說明給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5554.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5571.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
因為我們要知道當時我們合過了這個預算之後它到底有沒有被正常的去使用啊還是它其實已經變成一個弊案啊還是說它真的有多幅報預算啊所以這個部分是不是可以請你們把你剛剛講的三項計畫17億的相關細節的報告提供給國防外交委員會的委員需要多久時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5577.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5587.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
報委員 他詳細的都有一些 因為這個是上週才剛通過的預算他計劃寫了嘛計劃我們到時候會把中整資料送到委員報對 如果你們自己都沒有計劃的話 那你立案調查什麼呢你一定是有他的計劃 有他的預算 有他的細項你們才有調查可能性啊那不然你都說立案調查了 你們怎麼可能會沒有資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5599.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5613.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那為什麼有資料不能給我們今天是立法院所通過的這個預算如果裡面有撥片的情形如果裡面有騙預算騙人民納稅錢的情形當然立法委員要知道啊不然以後我們接下來要怎麼討論接下來的預算通過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5615.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5637.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那如果每一個局數都這樣子的話那還省什麼預算呢是 報言剛剛已經說過要會中程好送到是 好 那謝謝接下來要問海昆號的部分那關於我們在這個潛水的測試裡面那要驗證這個戰鬥系統那我們是否有向美方這邊租借操雷驗測的裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5640.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5657.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
是有的 那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候我們租借的這個期程會到 效期是會到明年我們從什麼時候到什麼時候 你不要只講到明年嘛從今年的五月份會到明年的那個年中左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5657.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5679.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5681.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5697.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5700.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5725.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5729.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5733.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
對嘛 我剛問的是這個問題啊 部長你跟我講一些這個雞同鴨講的沒有意義嘛我剛剛問的問題是 很簡單的我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統所以我們向美國去租借了超雷檢測的裝備那剛才呢 參謀長告訴我說呢 這個租借的期程是今年的五月到明年的五月 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5751.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5768.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
但是呢你現在才在做扶航測試而這個租借的設備要測試是要到潛水潛航測試的時候才要來做所以你們有信心跟把握在明年5月我們租借完成之前你就完成潛水潛航測試關於超雷檢測的部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5775.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5802.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
是的 因為我對你們現在很不信任因為你們每次都跟我說是4月的時候也說海測可以成功 說是9月的時候也說是 現在也都沒有所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是到底到時候能不能夠做到因為我們看到的是目前扶航測試呢也不過就是進行到超過一半左右然後呢 就已經進場休息一直要到比較後面的時候你們才要重新啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5803.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5818.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那後面還有潛水測試深水測試那如果你在我問一個問題喔如果在明年五月的時候你們還沒有完成這個操雷的驗測的話那這一套像美方租界的系統該如何處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5819.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5821.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
是直接可以往後再延後還是必須要跟美方這裡再 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5835.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5852.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
在做協調所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來沒有這段過程是嗎所以有可能有這段過程嘛對吧所以有可能有這段過程的話假設你們在5月之前沒有把這個超雷測驗完成檢測的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5857.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5872.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
就有可能我們還要把這套設備白租借了一年請問租借這個花多少錢是可以說的嗎如果是機密就別說好不好你們每次都有信心所以我要問假設說沒有辦法完成的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5874.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5884.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
有信心的話那當然就沒事但是我要問的是如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事嗎那這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎你時間上的往右但是我們現在租了一整年對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5892.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5907.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們租了一整年但如果今天你在明年五月之前你沒有完成這個操雷的檢驗的話那就可能要就像我們剛剛講的要還到美國去再把它租回來這一來一往的時間不是又會再拖到我們的潛水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎對嗎為什麼不會因為我們都會平行做協調你們每次都說不會然後呢我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5918.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5930.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
你們就連在這個電力管理上面呢都不斷的在往後拖延嗎我問一下我們這次扶航測試測了三次出去的時候有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5933.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5953.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們這次出去的時候還沒有用到自動充電沒有用到自動充電設備所以我們是用什麼 柴油 電他整個就是他的主機產生的電力之後到他的推進系統那我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到重點就是要驗測海昆軍艦在設計的時候他的動力系統能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5954.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5978.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
是嗎 但我現在在問你的是關於有自動充電的部分我們再測試這三次裡面有沒有後續接下來幾次有沒有要做其實你們早就應該用自動充電 我問你一下喔前三次沒有 對不起喔前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼是因為還沒有完成 還有問題還是你們覺得不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5981.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6003.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
整個測試的部分要能夠盡早確認動力系統它是完整的然後我們要找發現問題解決問題那這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性啊這兩件事有衝突嗎如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試那我們出海的時間會更延後我們就必須要把問題找到解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6004.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6028.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
問題在哪裡嘛 你說要把問題找到才能解決為什麼到第三 為什麼你前三次你都只能做這個測試然後呢 你要第四次你才能做自動充電相關的測試因為你好不容易切斷了這個岸上的系統然後呢 你能夠扶航出去那大多數的人都認為說我們在自動充電這一塊呢也已經做相關測試結果做了三次都沒有你現在告訴我第四次才要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6029.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6044.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
跟委員報告就我的了解是在潛水潛航的這個階段自動充電的這個功能才需要具備所以我們這一次在湖航的階段我們也讓他以這個潛水潛航的標準所以完成了自動充電才會再做湖航所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6045.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6049.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
相關的圖表是這樣寫嘛但是你在這個潛航的你在第二頁的報告裡面的這個第二頁裡面就寫了這個主機電力管理系統的部分那其實你看你後面的第三頁的第二點主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合所以這是為什麼你們後續的騎乘調整的時間比較慢的原因嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6073.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6096.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那你怎麼會講說這是要到後面呢沒有 就是我們之前的服行之前的服行的標準不需要達到自動充電但是我們現在後續的服行跟潛水潛航都要達到自動充電這個意思就是如此那所以啊 那你為什麼你要分成就是說如果你在潛水潛航在測試就好的話那你為什麼先前要把它拿到服行來勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6097.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6107.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我們現在湖航的測試打算以潛水潛航的標準來進行在下一階段的湖航測試是但是你的次數沒有改變啊你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6108.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6133.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
對啊 他點頭 你隔壁的點頭了你看我沒有意思 參謀長是點頭的您剛才講 因為我們抱怨現在就是我們扶航五次嘛前面做了三次 所以後面要再做兩次的扶航兩次的扶航 不然剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的扶航 我們就用標準潛航的標準來做就是說你潛航標準不會測到所以最後我問你一個問題就是因為你們現在講的齁 跟這張表是有出入 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6134.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6144.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以你在扶航測試的接下來兩次在你跟你這個潛水潛航的這次裡面有哪一些是要提到扶航的時候來做的你剛剛講充電你要往前移嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6145.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6173.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
就是說自動充電本來在潛水潛航我知道 我聽得懂那現在我們把扶航也要具備自動充電我聽得懂嘛所以我的意思是說你在潛水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些比如像你像充電能力你就往前面扶航去提了啊你就說你在扶航的時候你就要具備這個能力啦那所以我才發現說你的第一頁的表格跟你後面第二頁跟第三頁有矛盾跟衝突嘛沒有 我們只是從原來要求我們下一次的扶航的一個條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6174.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6188.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
對啊 那既然你有這樣子的要求那為什麼你提供的報告不是這樣子呢所以請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們就是說明清楚好不好不要讓你們報告第一頁跟二三頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6189.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6209.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
如果你們要多做當然很好我支持能夠做得越完善越好能夠推進的時間越快越好安全起見安全優先我也同意但是呢如果你們有要把扶航測試裡面潛水潛航測試裡面的一些部分在扶航的時候你就要做那很好啊寫清楚嘛讓我們知道嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6210.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6219.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這樣我們才有能力去監督他才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否都有按時按情況完成好嗎 時間的關係我們到這裡謝謝好 謝謝韋好 謝謝好 那部長現在先離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6254.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6260.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
好接下來我們請陳俊宇委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6277.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6287.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
好 謝謝趙偉我們有請副參謀長我們皇上將還有我們海軍司令邱俊榮中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6292.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6321.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
副參謀長 早我想針對大家非常關心的我們潛艦國造的進度上禮拜經過機密的報告和巡打之後今天還是就這個部分能夠公開的部分來進行相關的討論有關潛艦的整備工作先前外界都猜測是主機和電力管理系統還有整合式的載台管理系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6323.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6343.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
的問題 所以還沒有完成是因為遇到困難 但是這次我們國防部的報告當中已經有指出因為相關的功能驗證涉及到多方不同國家的一個共同施作要協調廠家的排程 進而導致時間拉長 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6345.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6371.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那是不是就這個部分請教我們副參謀長能夠在完整的說明騎乘延宕的原因確定不是遇到技術上的瓶頸那另外還有沒有其他的因素可能會影響到後續的測試的一個騎乘在這個報告的結語我們有寫到要加速達成海上測試的目標實際上有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6372.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6381.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這個做法能夠在確保安全和品質的這個狀況之下同時加速完成這個目標報告委員會請海軍參謀長就這個細節給您回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6384.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6408.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
委員早 感謝委員關心那如同委員剛才所提到的目前就是在主機的這個電力管理系統還有IPMS的部分那因為這個都是比較屬於前追前航他需要一個比較要的一個全建的動力的一個系統跟整個控制信號的一個部分所以那海軍是屬於的職責就在做專案管理跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6410.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6436.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
跟這個建造所以每一項海軍軍艦的測試海軍都必須要簽署所以我們必須要嚴格的把關所以在這些每個要件簽署跟這個合理的這個呃這個履約的這個同時那我們對於他的每項的工作的這執行的進度我們也都是非常如履薄冰來做所以當初才會呃希望說我們在前行以前就必須要完成自動充電的完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6436.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6456.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
所以在這個部分目前我們比較確切的就是這一段可能就是在我們當前就是去必須要把這一段這兩個項目給做完之後那我們其他的這個裝備的現況現在可以要能夠接到到來做後續的這個潛航的測試目前是這樣跟委員說的所以這個廠家的串聯相關的這個問題應該都沒有了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6458.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6481.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那目前台船跟海軍然後跟整個的整合的部分都已經做好多方的協調對後續的廠家的測試還有整個的進度調控還有包含剛才前面講的IPMS那廠家也我們也台船也特別請了國內的一個廠家來共同參與然後來做一個整個節點的能夠共同來配合然後把後續的驗測趕快按這個時間來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6484.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6511.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好 那也請我們能夠確實掌握相關的期程那之前這個部長也說過目前的進度來看海昆號要在11月順利交建會是一個很大的挑戰那台船如果沒有辦法一約在11月交建應該會有相應的這個處罰那其中針對海軍索賠的這個機制是不是就能夠公開的部分進一步說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6513.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6536.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
包括他的計法次數還有金額相關的懲處的時間點會是在哪裡另外我們也知道合約在設計上除了違約的各種情境跟配套的賠償外也設有解除合約的機制我們這一案應該是不會走到這個地步吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6538.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6562.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
包委員我們整個現在目前以到如果11月份按原先合約的交件會在11月那11月份的話如果沒有違約的部分我們是以這個千分之百分之千分之0.1的這個照件款那目前大概是一天是19萬部分那剛才有提過就是上限是20%的照件款 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6562.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6581 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
一天19萬 是那由於是我們第一次做遣件所以我們當初這個訂定的也是經過一個審慎的一個評估讓這個台船能夠在合宜的時間內把遣件能夠如期的做出來那當時台船應該是這個同意吧 是的簽訂的時候是同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6582 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6607.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 那另外有關上個月我們這個前 潛艦的這個小組召集人我們黃曙光上將請辭之後那有許多的傳言認為可能會影響到後續作業的這個推動針對這個部分我想請教我們副參謀長目前潛艦國造計畫是否有所謂的這個負責人而高層的這個人事異動是不是會影響到後續計畫的一個推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6609.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6623.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
二報委員跟您說明第一個是我們還是要感謝黃之偉從擔任海軍司令時候開始啟動潛艦國造的奉獻與付出我們要對他表達衷心的感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6624.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6649.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
現在黃前總長離職之後現在是由海軍一約專案管理跟監照所有的督導跟持續的進行都是無縫接軌持續在進行我們會繼續督導船廠按照造艦的規範執行履約和交艦督管機制的運作不會因為人員更迭和異動受到影響我們現在仍然一約在執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6650.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6668.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好 那有所謂的這個負責人就是我們現在已經現在就是交由海軍的專案管理人員來繼續負責好 那現在除了這個原型艦還有這個困難需要解決以外還有同時要為我們後續艦持續進行評估和精進的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6669.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6696.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那除了先前被凍結的這個50%10億元的這個後續件預算那必須在原型件通過海撤然後到立法院來進行解凍報告經過同意後才能使得凍之那明年度我們有編列119.5億的預算要全數通過也有相當大的一個挑戰那我想請教這個副參謀長如果後續我們這個後續件的這個預算被原型件 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6697.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6723.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
的這個連帶問題所影響甚至研發和造建的人員持續流失是否會對於我們後續建的這個推動產生自愛難行的部分第一部分是實際上我們這個仍然依照之前部長在這邊答詢所說的也在我們這個後續建第一批兩艘建造合約都簽署都有明定待原型建要通過海撤之後才會支付款項 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6723.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6742.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那有關這個台船這個後續他們繼續的規劃或者是人員的這部分我據聞的了解台船根據這個在預算方面他們也有做他們自己的這個規劃跟這個相關的應屬的措施那可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6742.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6754.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
他們的自己的計畫內繼續的推動這個潛艦國造的各項的細部的工作不會影響後續艦的進度好 就台船在這個合理的範圍之內還有辦法 還是會持續推進是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6758.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6784.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好 那我們第一艘自製的潛艦可能會遇到很多的困難我相信我們不管是國防部我們海軍都已經感受到了那需要逐一的去克服解決不但需要這個時間那也必須以安全和品質為優先按部就班來完成尤其是我們官兵安全應該是要擺在首要的位階也藉此再提醒一次我們國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6785.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6799.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
務必要確保安全才能執行後續的作業也讓之後的這個潛艦測試能夠平安順利的進行那也有利於我們未來我們所造出的潛艦是真的能夠發揮最大的效應那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6800.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6825.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
同樣針對這個海軍戰力提升還有我們明年元旦要成立的這個冰海作戰指揮部目前我們已經知道規劃是納入海豐大隊還有海珍部光六飛彈快艇以及這個自海飛彈修復中心等單位並且賦予他這個軍團級的作戰部隊的位階相關的經費也已經編列到明年度的這個預算當中那 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6826.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6844.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
先前我們參謀長在備詢的時候有提到我們的兵職部在防務不止24海里目前針對兵職部的任務是否有更明確的一個劃分包括未來與我們建職部在指揮鏈的關係當中會不會出現權責不清的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6850.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6865.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
並且與這個海巡的這個協調又如何來配合是不是針對這個部分我們還是就能夠公開的部分做簡要的說明是 鮑委員跟您報告當初我們在編設這個濱海作戰指揮部的時候就是根據作戰的需求來設計的 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6867.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6885.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所有的這個編制裝備跟人員都是在這個作戰指揮店的一條線下規劃出來了所以現在已經針對在作戰的時候建址部如何運用局指揮這個濱海作戰指揮部的這一部分都有明確的詳細的律定 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6886.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6895.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
另外有關後續相關的這個人員的編織的調整裝備的獲得以及這個海巡的協調實際上現在是按計畫在進行並沒有上面自來的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6899.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6915.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
沒問題 都在按計畫在進行好 那針對我們這個反艦飛彈的部分我們也向美方採購了100套400枚的這個岸置魚叉飛彈系統在2026年底我們要先交運32套 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6916.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6941.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那其中部分的這個飛彈發射車和雷達車也已經這個運抵我們台灣由海豐大隊這個接裝訓練那我想請教就是目前我們這個安置魚叉飛彈籌貨的進度如何第一批的這個飛彈這個彈體是否確定可以在年底前交付趕在我們兵子部成立前能夠就定位這部分請海軍常務長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6942.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6964.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
委員好 有關賓子部目前都還在整個編設的規劃上那整個時間節點會到明年的我們現在是暫顧是明年的年中七月份才會有初步的編裝的一個生效那我們這整個的推顧也是按照整個飛彈的裝備 接裝的結角 接收的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6965.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6989.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那目前的話那個後續的話大概會到年底到年明年年初會陸續的這個會開始陸陸續續的這個膠狀的節點會陸陸續續來推動那後面重點就是在在明年部分我們也會依照這個編社所需要這個部分還要再跟廣部去把未來的這個到明年年中之前把我們的前置作業給完成拿來達到他應該有的一個關鍵戰力的一個前置作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6990.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7009.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好 那我們飛彈可以按照期程就定位吧就是從年底到明年第一第二季都是陸陸續續的在做這些遞交好 那另外再最後一個問題我想請教一下我們兵子部對這個無人機無人艇的這個運用有沒有提出相關的這個規劃和需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7010.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7038.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
是 報告委員就是說有關於無人機跟無人艇的部分現在我們都已經規劃在兵子部的整個兵海打擊的重層截擊這一段所以這兩類的規劃我們都已經納入了相關的建案的程序但是因為很多的BN社還有預算的BN社還沒有完全獲付預算以前我們詳細的內容我們比較抱歉沒有辦法提供比較細部那委員如果需要的部分我們再到委員辦公室跟向委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7039.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7042.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 謝謝我們副參謀長 謝謝好 謝謝委員先宣告待會兒林楚英委員質詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請林楚英委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7066.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7079.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
謝謝主席主席有請我們的副參謀總長執行官黃上將副總長然後常務次長也在對不對常次 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7082.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7107.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為我要問的問題因為上個禮拜我們已經針對這個潛艦的機密的報告已經做過一些詢答了那麼我想要問的是其實這也跟我們潛艦的進度建造其實息息相關本席是非常肯定就是在潛艦國造跟國防自主戰力上面的提升喔那麼有關於現在希望是在11月底能夠順利的來交建或者是這本席還是強調安全第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7112.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7120.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
有安全才能夠有這個真正的國防自主的戰力的提升我相信任何一個東西的製造的過程當中因為他並不是有一個潛力在前所以說能夠打造出來到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7129.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7157.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這個時間點我們應該只是壓一個目標這個我必須要強調我們雖然站在監督的角度但是不論如何我認為國軍弟兄國軍官兵們的安全第一因為這個是未來所有我們國軍弟兄尤其是海軍弟兄他們要進入來做使用這一個樣的一個我們自己所製造的海昆號不過在製造的過程當中就是因為涉及機密那麼在上個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7158.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7180.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
其實這個我們的國安局蔡局長也說了中共對我們的認知作戰不斷的進行當中本席特別整理了在海昆號在這一段時間以來尤其是在6月17號啟動海策之後這些不利的訊息包括謠言說海策的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7182.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7209.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
艦體會變形然後稱我們是模型艦是玩具中共的官媒甚至於說海昆號不堪一擊甚至於錯誤類比日本的這個所謂倉金號然後造價高然後批評500億打水漂一條爛船還在吹牛然後說台灣人是做潘娜好 我想要請問的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7210.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7230.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
在這些的所謂認知作戰或是輿情作戰當中到底國防部有沒有什麼樣的任何的統計到底有多少的認知作戰因為我認為這個是一種無煙消的戰爭而這些所謂的認知作戰的謠言有沒有預防跟抵抗的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7231.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7257.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
包委員這個有關這個錯假訊息是幾乎是可以預期的因為的確這個在現在我們這個兩岸這個情況之下的確是有人要不斷的想要打擊我們各項不管是建軍或者備戰或者種種所以自然而然一定會有非常多的錯假訊息企圖對我們的民心士氣造成影響有沒有統計過那這一部分我們實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7260.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7263.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這個國安局長在講國民黨的黨主席選舉的時候啦就有超過上萬條上千則的這個影音然後出現在各種社群平台當中你們有沒有做過統計因為這也是一種戰爭的樣態喔就是打擊就是而且這些樣態是會從境外然後影響到全國人民對於海昆號進度的一種不信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7288.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7293.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那麼立委看到這個部分的時候也可以有人甚至於拿這個來做質詢的時候那這個也可以成為打擊你們的一個方向跟目標所以機密的部分我不會去詢問但是像這種無煙消的戰爭正在發生甚至於就透過中國的內容農場成為質詢的部分比如說模型玩具啦 會變形啦 不堪一期啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7314.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7330.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
500億打水漂啦不然為什麼你們11月底無法如果無法如期交建的時候那是不是就剛好正中中國在利用認知作戰來打擊我們的海軍跟海昆號的所謂的建造的過程是 我就請我們的政戰局來跟您做個打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7333.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7363.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
委員好 我是政戰局局長史順文跟您報告有關於中共的認知作戰它的攻勢其實是非常積極包含我們的潛艦在一開始到現在它的這方面的認知作戰的行動完全沒有停止過那麼我們每天都會針對中共對我們的認知作戰做完整的掌握如果說有比較可以我們可以立即去回應的我們會立即新聞稿或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7364.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7370.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
在包含了跟民間的這個事實查核中心等等我們都會立即地做出反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7370.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7394.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
好 所以說你們有沒有一個數字的統計比如說每天或是多久大概是有沒有去做量化的統計然後多數是來自於哪些中國的官媒或者是統計數字這個東西有一個詳細的報告嗎我覺得這是一個非常好的這個公開的時刻因為我們都知道面對錯假訊息最重要的就是在必要的時候去做揭露那麼你們有這樣的資訊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7397.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7401.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
包委員 我們有這樣的資訊但是現在手上沒有 是是不是可以提供給本席是 會後就可以提供嗎還是要我們要回去整理一下要多少時間 一個禮拜可以嗎可以因為本席一直認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7412.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7439.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
就是心理戰會影響到整體的海昆號在進展的過程中尤其接下來還有海測及其他的這個所謂測試的過程當中只要你有每一次有動作他就可以直接在後面放消息放毒那麼放毒的也是他們我們沒有辦法只要第一時間透過這個方式來做解讀所以我認為這個訊息是很重要的請你在一個禮拜提供一本席也提供我們國防外交委員會好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7440.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7443.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
是 我們會持續地掌握而且立即地做出回應好 謝謝接下來我要請問的是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7449.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7471.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
幾個禮拜前我們的賴總統在國慶演說當中說要打造台灣之盾那麼建構台灣分層防禦跟高度感知有效攔截的防護系統喔那麼這個回到我們這一次的年度的2026年的預算當中我們有國防部的主管預算9459億新式戰機的特別預算有399億海空戰力特別預算有293億 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7477.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7496.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那麼我們總統也宣示了那就是我們的國防預算要達到GTT的3%那麼在這個部分 這個名詞的出現我想最重要的還是要由國防部來解讀那麼這些預算的編列符合現在總統宣示的有關於要打造台灣之盾的部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7498.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7512.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這部分我請站櫃司司長來做個答覆好站櫃司這邊針對公開的部分跟委員做個補充因為我們現在目前面對的空中威脅從彈道飛彈一直到無人機已經變成一個全面性的這個威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7513.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7540.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以我們整個布防的這個部分這是一個多年期的計畫涵蓋了之前已經執行的建案還有未來我們即將納入包含自治跟軍購案的這些相關的項目那有跟後續因為目前還在處理當中可能沒有辦法在這邊跟委員做報告但這是一個整體的規劃是 所以這個部分在我們的哪些預算當中是已經編列在年度預算又有哪些未來會用特別預算來做處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7541.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7553.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
在前面的部分我們在前面海空戰力提升裡面我們已經針對防空飛彈的部分已經做了編列那在更早之前我們也編列增購102枚的I-3增程型的飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7557.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7576.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那後續的這個部分陳儒委員知道的我們在過去愛國者飛彈的部分他並沒有滿足到足夠的數量那隨著中共對我們的空中威脅越來越大事實上我們也必須要做一個完整的規劃把威脅的這個部分跟我們防護目標的部分來做一個結合 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7576.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7601.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那最重要的是這些飛彈必須加入到新的整合系統裡面去才能夠有效來發揮戰力所以未來我們的目標是從反彈反擊反無人機的這個部分都必須要進入一個完整的整合指管系統有效來發揮各層不同空城跟不同位置裡面武器裝備的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7601.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7612.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好 我想涉及機密的部分我不會特別來詢問但是就像過去我們剛剛從海昆劍一路以下我們所詢問的就是在採購跟自治的部分這麼樣一個龐大的計畫預算很高那麼有沒有一個規劃是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7617.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7636.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
採購的部分跟自製的部分比例又是多少有沒有好好的去琢磨因為我們都知道每一次的計畫當中它連帶的可以帶動我們在軍工產業上面的整體的整個產業鏈的提升喔那麼在這邊國防部有沒有把這個作為思考的一部分那比例又是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7637.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7663.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
有關比例的這個部分因為後續的預算我們還在編列當中在這邊可能沒有辦法跟委員做一個詳述那後續計畫提出來之後當然我們會針對各個計畫尤其是福祉國內無人機以及其他重要產業的這個部分我們會做一個充分的說明那這個部分我們目前仍然在跟行政院以及有關的部會進行研討那後續會再跟委員做一個詳細的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7664.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7693.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好 所以言下之意就是除了在部分已經放在我們2026的年度預算當中那麼有部分的話其實還要再重新把這個預算再提出來是這個意思嗎是那你們打算在今年年底提出來嗎還是因為畢竟現在是預算會期我們目前我們的整個規劃是配合年度總預算審查的時間會在今年年底之前提出這個特別預算好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7695.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7695.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
謝謝 現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8035.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8040.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們繼續開會 接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢不然我們請副參謀總長跟常務次長請副總長 參謀總長 參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8060.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8080.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
委員好副參謀長想請教一下因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞就是說關於上校局長他涉嫌竊密還有一個包含他的這個海軍局長他有一些違法的連環報那這個是在新聞媒體上面有出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8081.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8105.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那我比較關切的是他好像是使用這個未加密的軟體LINE然後直接來去指示他的下屬有沒有這件事情新聞所報導的事情是不是目前已經掌握的程度到什麼樣報告委員這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查細節的部分我請海軍參謀長給你做個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8108.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8125.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
委員好 針對發生疑似這樣因為他這件事情他並沒有跟我們本部查詢他也沒有跟個人來做一個比較做一個查證那我們知道之後 我們掌握之後我們已經開始完成了一個正式的立案來做調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8126.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8144.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那我們以日本的這個物往物中的情形那如果查證到有涉及不法或是私職部分我們會按規定來做一個處分那目前就這個加密軟體有沒有使用加密軟體來去溝通還是使用一般民間的廠商的這種像LINE這樣子這個應該有掌握吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8146.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8167.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
目前我還在做進一步的釐清看他用在公務群組裡面用了一些資料是不是屬於四色到機敏之類的那如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分我們會按規定來做一個調查應該是這麼講好了就是說只要是公務那就是理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體在傳遞這些訊息嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8169.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8184.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
只要試射到機敏類應該說只要試射到公物就不行了嘛公物的話大概如果說行政術士這有一定的行政術士是可以的但是如果試射機敏的話那就不行所以這個部分你們還在調查當中是的OK |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8186.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8210.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我在之前在這個質詢國安局的時候還有其實不只國安局包含其他各個跨部會的部門我就一直在提到說異常狀況的回報指南這個東西我們是希望趕快來去建置這是要跨部會去建置因為我現在發覺到一件事情只要大家遇到異常的狀況他們第一回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官可能通常都是新聞媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8212.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8237.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這樣就不對了吧 理論上是第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引而且是可以被信任 被官兵信任的這樣他們才知道說我們如果上報上去的話才不會被大事化小因為其實這些不是所謂的小事他們可能會如果是上報到自己的這個上層的單位的話甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣所以他們有這樣的擔心才會去找外面的媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8238.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8264.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以 異常的狀況 它要有一個回報的機制那回報的機制你們必須要有反應那才不會讓說 像這種類似甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中上面用言語上面的這種霸凌的狀況都出現我覺得這樣是不太好的可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢想請教一下 部參謀總長有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是說你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引那他們要回報的單位是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8265.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8283.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
是 報告委員 實際上每天有關於資安或者保防上面的安全的情況各單位 我們保安部本部還有國防部的相關單位還有各基層單位在執行任務的時候如果有所發現 實際上國防部每天都有相關的監測跟報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8285.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8303.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那也有基層官兵發現異常的時候主動回報反應上來的或者尋系統被我們自己查查發現也回報上來的也會做相關的處置不過有一部分通常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的這個私德或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8304.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8314.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
機敏的資訊所以說我們會先完成相關的調查之後如果涉及不法就會移送法辦如果是涉及部內管理的我們會對單位或者是個人做一個相關的立案調查至於有時候會在媒體上出現當然是有部分官兵會尋向外爆料的管道或者是他有別的用心或企圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8328.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8338.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那這一部分我們這個是民主的社會裡頭我們有關於媒體的這一部分我們也只能尊重但是跟委員報告的確我們是有內部XX跟申書的管道也在運作也發現不少案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8345.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8368.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
遇到日常事件的通報的指引我覺得要是有還是要有那我剛才為什麼講這麼多其實為什麼他們會想要媒體介入可能有兩種情況第一個可能是你要說你剛剛有講的第一個可能是另有目的可是另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法來去做完整的去處置甚至是就不處置所以他們有這樣的擔心所以今天這個特別來提一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8369.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8388.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那我們現在來談一下這個作戰圖像關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域的周邊的水文資訊潛艦要發揮戰力的話那我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握台灣這個周邊的海域的這一種水文資料那目前國科會有四艘海洋研究船 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8388.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8403.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那國家海洋研究院是預計在2026年完成三艘這個海洋研究調查船的建置這些單位的水文圖資是會跟國防部或者是海軍來去做一些資訊共享嗎這些資訊是有幫助的嗎請海軍參謀長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8406.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8430.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
委員好 跟委員報告針對我們台灣是個海島國家所以我們周邊的重要的海上的交通線跟海域我們都是目前的話就是跟海巡的國科還有跟國家的海洋機制還有我們本身我們大氣海洋局都是有共同做一些共同的海底的勘探跟情勢分享這個是有做的 是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8431.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8461.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
因为我刚刚看到这个这个调查船有些是做环境研究那国科院的调查船是做海洋科学研究那目前我们海军好像有一个叫做达官号那它是叫做海洋测量舰那目前是一艘那你们会不会觉得有必要再提升这个相关的这些测量能力再多去建造或者是去更多的其他租用或者是有其他方式来去增强这方面的监测能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8462.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8481.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
報告委員 我想委員之前也關心過這個問題過那我們除了現在達官軍艦之外我們針對後面的潛艦的一個救難艦我們也在它的潛艦救難上面我們也同時間也賦予它一些海洋收集跟海洋資料的一個處理的一個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8482.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8506.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以以後應該不會只有達根縣後面在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料跟相關的一個水文資料的中整跟建設後面會比較一個完整因為除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力徵收的能力還有測量的能力我想這些都是環環相扣的那未來如果有需要我們希望有提出來把這些資訊來做更完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8506.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8520.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那之前有提到我之前有提到這個美國海軍新聞他有報導說中國的人這個海軍他在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型的無人潛航載具那好像說是有40到42公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8521.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8545.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那無人載具這個部分特別是無人潛艦就我們所知中科院是2019年有跟民間廠商有進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫那目前的說法我們未來是用軍民通用科技並非是新式的武器那我是想請教一下就是面對中國這種那麼多有UUV等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8546.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8571.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
不同的這種新的無人載具它的新的挑戰出現那我們台船一方面要專精在我們有人潛艦上面那未來我們有沒有足夠的生產的生產線因為你都要排成嘛就是你生產能力可能就是只有這麼多那你要把你的這個關鍵的這個你的priority是什麼想請教一下未來對無人載具你們的規劃是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8572.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8595.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
有一部分我們是由中科院在協助進行我這邊請院長來做個答覆我大概把委員剛剛的問題做一個簡單的答覆就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫它實際上產出了一艘水下無人載具當時它的整個建造不是台船建造是其他造船廠來建造的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8596.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8609.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那未來我們也有相關的一些科研計畫我們還會繼續去投資在我們國內的造船業界當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫也就是跟我們的學術界來共同合作包含跟國海院的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8610.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8632.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好 謝謝因為不管是這個在水下的或者是在水上的無人潛艦無人潛艦或者是無人的水面艦那我想中國已經是有花很多的心力在去做了那我們自己可能也要思考一下怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式達到我們最大的作戰目的所以最後請容我再問一個問題關於這一個我們的TDOM的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8634.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8656.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
想請教一下因為我們現在要面臨的是中國的一個非常大的資源那他的這個他的設備他的資源他的彈藥他的這些全面性的覆蓋那怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的而且是最有性價比的去做這個防空或者是做對台灣的防衛那這個部分我可能要請教一下務參謀長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8657.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8673.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
哪些方式是比較符合就是性價比的就是說我們當然是可以去學以色列那以色列可能現在又要走向這個雷射武器做一個防空的方式就是又再進展一個但是哪樣的性價比是最高的目前有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8674.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8689.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
相關的規劃報告委員這個有關總統宣示我們要開始推動這個台灣之盾就踢動了這部分實際上空軍還有國防部這邊已經開始做相關的規劃主要的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8691.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8717.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
有一部分的原因就是您刚才提到的性价比的部分因为因应对方对我们的来自空中的威胁已经非常的多样化有些的确是对方用不对称的方式有些成本比较低的可是却可以对我们造成相当大的威胁我们要考虑到我们自己资源的耗用所以说在T-DOM的计划里头 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8723.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8735.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
也就是說當它對我們發動攻擊的時候我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種然後對到什麼區域那我們可以用哪一種的防衛武器能發揮最大的效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8737.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8759.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
副总长我来简单的做一个总结因为有一些民众可能担心说这个T-Dog可能会消耗非常大的军购或者是非常大的军费但是其实按照我们军方的解释它是把所有的系统整合做最有效率跟性价比的方式来加强我国的整体防空能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8759.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8782.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我这样的解读是不是正确是的这是有很大一部分是这一部分所以说我们不是以弹不是用防空飞弹换他们的飞弹因为这样子就没有所谓的不对称而已而是可以综合我们所有的能力看怎么样是用最有性价比的方式还是能够防空我这样的理解是的也是这样跟我们说明的话我认为这样会得到更多的支持好不好是谢谢谢伟 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8788.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8790.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
接下來請賴世保委員上台質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請副參謀總長副總長還有楊長治市長還有陸軍司令部的陳這個參謀長陸軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8818.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8839.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
首先我想先請教陸軍先請教陸軍參謀長因為有人提到說今天三棟二砲營的軍官在砲側中心跳樓已經走了有沒有這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8839.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8852.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
報告委員是的有這件遺憾的事情這件事情到底是為什麼跳樓我們去了解這個從一早我們就循著戰情系統就直接的掌握時間什麼時候在凌晨5點50分的時候跳下來這樣是墜樓那他的軍階是什麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8860.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8885.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
中衛副連長 中衛副連長沒有去了解為什麼原因他目前是 他是302旅但是他是在砲車中心接受這個基地訓練是 要力太大還是什麼樣 不知道 細節目前因為我們已經在第一時間我們也封鎖了現場那也通知了雲林憲兵隊那目前也因為是營區內的重大傷損案件那目前是有檢調來介入調查 確定是自殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8888.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8895.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這個我不能因為報告委員這個我剛才已經報告說這個是有檢調要來介入調查和釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8896.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8916.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
你大概什麼時候會對外說明一下還是我剛才說的這個因為已經介入到檢調來處理你請回這個你遺憾了這是遺憾了到底是什麼樣是不是訓練壓力太大什麼樣的那個副參謀總長我先請問你這個部長今天早上來了一下講說這個一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8918.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8928.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
潛艦都要七年以上 我們現在五年多言下之意 就是我們的進度delay是理所當然的會這樣子嗎 就是我們的潛艦到底第一艘什麼時候可以出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8929.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8946.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
鮑威實際上我們國家是第一次自立建造潛艦當然會面對非常多的挑戰我們當然是希望做最詳盡的計畫能夠在我們希望的時間之內獲得但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8949.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8969.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
各單位都非常的努力那我們也有很多地方也獲得了突破但是我相信也可以理解在這個過程中一定會遭到非常多的困難跟挑戰所以部長這樣講就請教因為時間有限是不是有最少七年現在五年多我們要再等一年多才可能看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8969.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8969.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
最順利 最少7年如果按計劃的話我們計劃是5年那當然是看到現在各項的情況我們來根據實際的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8984.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8989.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
在安全跟符合我們的需求的計畫現在你不要變成一個現在什麼都沒有整合系統就是沒辦法整合我們很擔心給你這麼多錢700億加起來才500億會不會變成爛違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9002.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9021.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那根據海軍的說明那是一些這個額外的因素發生之後我們也做了調整那他們也做了整合實際上這個相關的困難都在排除中這個也很在這個繼續的推動這個進展應該是可以不會造成這個所謂您所謂的這種讓我一下 不會我們很擔心這個因為你現在三階段第一階段輻射是不是 輻航 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9030.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9030.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我請教另外一個問題 大家很關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9048.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9062.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
就是我們現在交了 像美國買武器交的錢還沒有到的外面是說大概200億美金這個數字到底有沒有錯好 那我就想省紀部特別針對F16特別預算F16特別預算是2500億左右喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9067.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9093.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這個他講的在這是省基部講的114年6月匯出去47.2億美金佔了總金額59億美金的六成我們已經付了六成結果第一架原來說112年要出廠delay到今年的Q1現在還在美國根本都沒有交貨那現在美國說115年的Q3 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9096.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9106.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
開始交115年的Q4完成交貨你會這麼樂觀看嗎這部分我請這個空軍參謀長做講解空軍參謀長來委員好 我是空軍參謀長跟委員報告這個交貨的部分我們付款的部分在112年以前因為都還沒有交機所以我們是按他的發價書來付款113年以後因為他的交機delay所以說我們並沒有實際的付款給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9124.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9153.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那在這個審計部的報告審計部的報告是75我們已經付了75但是事實上75%我們到今年底我們只付了61那沒有交機的部分我們都按照跟美方的這個討論之後好 現在我就問一個很重要的問題啦因為這個特別預算是115年底就明年底要執行完畢如果那時候都還沒有交完貨怎麼辦 你告訴我怎麼辦我們會按程序程序是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9154.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9167.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
做預算的保留因為現在看起來是風險是非常的高因為在所以就是你講說一百明年底交不了六十家就對了啦我們評估風險很高是就交不了啦簡單來講就是交不了這樣就對了那這個東西你保留預算我覺得另外有個方式嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9175.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9187.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你這個可以特別預算來修改一下不就好了把那個後面時間往後延一下不就好了這個我們會按程序來走程序你是說保留還是保留很久預算保留跟執勤年度我們都會一併檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9188.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9207.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
好另外一個最後一個問題我要講一下現在你們正在發展一個東西叫做軍民兩用無人機就是無人機平時轉轉平站的轉換就平時轉為暫時所以就是軍商用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9209.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9223.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
軍商規 共用軍商共用的規格第一個小問題來問一下那個副總長你知道現在的操控手或者是空軍司令的那個參謀長那個我說要訓練一千個人結果只訓練三百個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9226.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9242.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
然後現在規定 按照我們國防部的規定針對於大陸港澳產品是不可以用大陸產品那你現在軍跟商用的無人機是共用那商的部分很多是大陸的晶片 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9243.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9261.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這一來的話這裡面風險其實蠻高的 按照你們的規定來講這個如何的避免這個事情你們正在發生這個喔比如說這個有叫 軍民共規策略軍民通用無人機能量籌建這兩個大計畫都在做這個事情來 長官來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9263.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9282.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
哪一位長官可以回答我請採購室主任跟您做個詳細回答簡單來講就是居民方面裡面無人機很多是大陸的晶片結果你現在要轉換為暫時那就是有 因為就有這個大家所擔心的治安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9283.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9305.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
委員好 國防財務室主任跟您報告不管是軍用還是商用我們對於這個廠商的要求我們規定是不能夠有錄製品也就是說像無人機它是屬於軍用商用很多錄製品的 怎麼沒有呢商用也是我們包含買商用的無人機或軍用無人機一律是禁止這個錄製品我們都有這個履約 履約督導還有這個驗收的這個規定這個不是我講的喔 是審計部講的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9313.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9341.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
你們的國防部的採購契約買無人機方面沒有與國防部的這個履約驗收作業指導的相關規定審計部 這個話審計部講不是我講的啊審計部講的啊審計資料我們辦的 我們訂的這個作業指導是在去年8月30號訂的也就是這個指導之後我們是確實落實按照這個作業指導來執行這個履約督導和驗收 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9342.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9348.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我不知道你怎麼去管到民間的民間買無人機你怎麼去管得到民間買的 商用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9349.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9354.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
民間買對啊 軍民兩用啊 軍民兩用啊你沒有聽懂我意思我們有軍用商規的五輪機我們也會去買商規的 商用的五輪機可是就在這個採購的規定裡頭有這個非常明確的綠定它不可以裡頭有這個大陸的你們聽懂我意思我現在講是你們在發展一個叫軍民 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9373.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9396.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
軍民共規策略就是軍用的無人機跟民間用的無人機是民間用的無人機你沒辦法阻止他他的無人機裡面有大陸的晶片可是我們在採購的時候我們就會檢查他如果我們要買的是軍用商規的無人機也就是這種這個一般外面商業生產的這個無人機的時候他裡頭必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9398.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9405.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
不能有大陸的所以等於說民間你們現在有兩個計畫一個是你們一個是經濟部經濟部是軍民通用無人機能量籌建有兩個 都是說我這個按照我們好的方面想就是擴大我們無人機的規模啦size啦這不是壞事但是就是在民間他會用到的無人機裡面的晶片是大陸做的晶片 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9426.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9434.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
可是他只要進入軍方的採購我們就會限制他不得使用大陸方面的零件我講一句話就結束了審計部打你們的臉說你們的採購契約無人機的採購契約沒有與國防部的相關的作為指導你回去檢討好不好審計部給你們的一個糾正這是糾正喔他裡面有讀了一下糾正你們就是代表你剛剛講的話你沒有落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9454.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9459.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我們現在的確已經在開始落實這個相關的事情謝謝謝謝委員接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請徐欣穎徐欣穎徐欣穎委員不在請傅坤祺傅坤祺傅坤祺委員不在請王宏威委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9487.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9514.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
好 謝謝主席 請我們楊次長以及海軍參謀長請楊次長 海軍參謀長王委員好次長好 參謀長好我們今天主要是海昆號的一個專案報告我想請問 再次確定一下11月交件會不會延後 會不會跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9516.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9540.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
報告這個跟委員報告目前海昆號遇到的這個問題是在技術上我們沒有問題但是我們在檢測上因為有時間關係11月能夠如期交界嗎我們朝這個方向去努力但是目前 能不能因為現在時間已經差一個多月而已因為你們好幾次都是說11月是目標那11月會不會跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9542.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9555.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
委員好 已經參謀長報告那的確我們當初在測試的整個規劃上面上是有點樂觀那現在是面臨比較大的挑戰好 現在看起來就是沒有辦法如期交件好 所以次長還有那個參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9558.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9573.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們其實等待海昆號已經等待非常久了那相關的海浙的時間跳票現在交件的時間也跳票但是與此同時我們也看到日本最近下海的蒼金號 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9576.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9579.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
下海然後它的相關的造價呢也有媒體這樣披露所以讓我們很多民眾非常崩潰也就是我們造價超過500億的我們的海昆號左等右等錢也是你們在花的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9595.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9609.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
話也是你們在講的說什麼時候一定會如期的進行海策如期的交建但是現在呢看起來都是自欺欺人我不曉得要延後到什麼時候所以我想請問一下就是讓民眾非常崩潰的事情就是為什麼同樣的日本一條一條的潛艦在下水而它的造價比我們低那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9623.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9626.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
如果按照這樣的說 看我們的造價相差這麼多的一個狀況之下請問一下 未來我們的國建國造可不可以把轉為我們跟日本來買 讓日本賣給我們我這樣算一下 我們未來有7條的前件你們編了2800多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9645.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9674.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那如果我們跟日本買的話立刻可以減少六成以上至少我們納稅人的錢可以少很多所以想請問一下我們現在計畫要繼續花這麼多的錢嗎他們已經是造到大經濟的第六艘然後他的價格已經可以降低到不到145億那為什麼我們還是要維持這麼高的一個價格可不可以跟日本去買 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9676.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9692.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我們可以跟美國買相關的這些軍品那我們花的錢這麼多嘛然後什麼時候能夠正式成行我們也不知道遙遙無期啊錢也要花但是呢又沒有辦法看到成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9694.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9715.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
可不可以回答是委員好跟委員報告海昆圈的建造其實是按節點那目前我們的測試的確是有點有了一個落後的delay的這個情形那我們原本應該是在四月份就要海測但是我們延到六月所以這中間的確有兩個月的差遲 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9716.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9721.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那這兩個月差池就會反映在我們現在的測試的這個節點上那這個也必須要坦誠的 懷切的來面對這一個財務長我請問一下黃曙光他原來是我們國建國造的召集人他就請辭了反正丟下這樣的爛攤子請辭了那請問一下他現在召集人的工作是您在做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9741.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9758.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這個報告委員那個黃志偉請辭之後那目前我想這個我們也我們還有召集人嗎我們現在就是在我們海軍司令部會做專案管理然後由國防部層層的督管我們共同來執行所以由海軍司令部由您來負起這個相關的工作嗎我要講的就是為什麼我們這個國艦國造海昆號這扯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9763.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9771.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們說第一個剛才講海策delay現在呢交件也delay然後看到人家日本的那個人家的錢錢這麼便宜然後我們在這個過程裡面我們的召集人說以所謂的家庭藝術 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9782.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9805.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
落跑了然後我們台船之前的董事長最重要的台船董事長鄭文龍也離開了我知道他那個時候是非自願離開所以就是說所有前進國造的這些關鍵人物一個一個離開而現在留下這些爛攤子當然我覺得你們現在責任也很重大變成你們在這邊接受我們的質詢在這邊接受我們的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9809.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9814.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
怎麼會這樣子呢 到了這種地步變成所有該負責的人全部走掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9816.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9837.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
該負責的人我們沒有辦法究責那到現在我們也沒有辦法看到海昆號到底什麼時候交件也都不知道然後一大堆這個什麼這個系統那個系統說沒有辦法整合過去我們也有嘛當時台船那個大午見也是一樣啊應是去交件交件之後被監察院這個審計部然後提出糾正說你們相關的IPMS系統根本沒有辦法整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9846.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9863.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
就是一大堆留下來這些問題可是這些錢不都是名指名高嗎所以我希望在整個的海昆號到底什麼時候能夠交件我覺得你們要有必要要跟國人做如實的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9864.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9884.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
但是我也知道你們現在責任完全就責於你們也有一點那個什麼也有點就是我說該就責的人通通跑掉了這些人都不要就責當時講的天花亂墜當時做的一副風風火火現在東西交不出來人通通跑掉了錢也就花下去了還要編那麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9891.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9897.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
所以我具體建議啊 具體建議如果人家日本人可以做那麼好除非你不相信日本人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9898.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9926.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
乾脆去跟日本去買算了我們可以節省超將近兩千億耶兩千億是錢啊我們做不出來乾脆跟人家去買好了我說這個話可能大家覺得說我是喪自己威風啊好像很喪氣可是問題是我們大家期待這麼多然後花了這麼多錢卻一直沒有辦法呈現在國人的眼前然後繼續給我們編織一個很很美好的夢在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9927.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9946.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以在這邊拜託你們所有相關事情我知道我們國防外交委員會也有舉行過秘密會議然後我們現在大家還是很關心還是要有些公開的要給國人交代有什麼樣的狀況應該如實的去跟國人報告好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9947.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9968.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
是我很簡單跟委員做報告那當然日本的整個潛艦的起源很早那他有他自己的自製產能跟他國內的這個供應鏈所以他的很多的條件是的確是價錢是非常低但是受限於我們的一個環境上這個狀況下面而且日本對我們輸出的這個許可也有可能有些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9969.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9981.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那潛艦雖然換了目前我們按照這個現在步調在走那我們有信心可以完成潛艦的建造那整個專案不會因為一個人離開了位置的產生影響我們會繼續努力 謝謝委員知道好 拜託加油啦好 謝謝委員謝謝 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10009.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10015.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
謝謝主席有請執行官請副總長還有參謀長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10021.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10027.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
您好 首先我先針對今天送來的書面報告的內容我本行收到報告的時候覺得看起來是很熟悉就請助理用電腦AI比對海軍在10月13號發出的新聞稿內容結果顯示裡面的內容75%以上跟海軍10月13號發布的新聞稿的內容是一模一樣的除了第一頁的摘要報告外 其餘的內容都幾乎雷同 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10047.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10058.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
想請國防部到立法院來做專案報告的時候要認真的面對不要拿舊的新聞稿直接改標題這樣的話我覺得這樣是有點企圖敷衍我們國會立委啦所以未來請改進報告委員不敢敷衍啦只是這個會議是公開會議所以我們基本上來講是以能公開能揭露的資訊來做這個報告那委員如果對這個報告內容有所建言的話我們回去也會進行改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10077.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10096.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
接下來我進入正題國造潛艦海空號其實現在是全台灣的人民甚至全世界高度關注的國防自主但是看來海空號在9月底完成海撤的目標已經跳票了所以按照這個進度你覺得11月交艦的目標還有機會完成嗎這部分我請海軍參謀長跟您做詳細的答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10102.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10130.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
委員好 鮑委員我們的建造是按照節點但是我們的測試的確因為測試衍生工程面的一個部分我們需要去解決的問題那的確是有兩個月的delay所以我們在11月份要達成這個測試然後這會比較的挑戰所以有可能我們這個整個測試的期程會往後所以看來應該不可能完成了嘛但是我們目前也是儘快能夠達到這個潛航準備的時候我們就會出去做後續的測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10131.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10144.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我再請教一下海空號的港測的項目是不是一定要全部做完才能夠滿足整個出海的條件呢還是說可以跳過有些部分的測試項目就可以先進行海測呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10146.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10169.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
報議員 我們整個的測試它有一定的測試程序書那我們整個從港測到海測中間我們都經過技協跟專業的建造還有這個廠方我們會來完整訂定整個測試的期程所以它是按照一個測試的期程跟建造的規範書我們把測試的這個次序訂出來之後按照這樣來做推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10169.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10182.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以港測的項目是幾乎全部都有完成嗎是只有部分可能需要不影響實際上操作的那其他都還有解決方案的所以剛才我的意思就是說所以還是有跳過部分測試的項目嗎對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10185.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10201.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
有些的部分它就像IPMS可能當初就有幾個測像是需要但是它不影響實際的操作那我們也是在審核了整個安全機制沒有問題然後這些也必須要能夠先去做必要的測試能夠發掘問題才能夠解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10203.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10218.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以現在的意思就是說其實海昆號的港車其實都還沒有完全的做完但是海軍覺得安全無虞所以為了趕時間就先出海然後做部分的海撤項目對不對我請那個海拔中心主任解釋一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10220.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10229.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
各位委員報告所有的測試都有缺點那麼在缺點不影響我們海上航行安全的話我們都會先執行測試讓我們所有的測試都經過聯測之後發覺問題我們趕快去解決他的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10235.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10250.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以海昆澳到底有沒有符合可以出海的條件到底是不是真的安全無虞現在依照國防部報告的整個內容我看IPMS跟主機與電力管理的整個系統無論問題的大小現在幾乎都還沒有被變出海對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10255.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10275.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
跟委員報告我們整個的IPMS的測試程序完整做過了你做過之後就會發生有些的信號調效跟部分的還有些技術面的一個還要再重新的再做缺改所以現在會配合這個我們下一次出海前的部分我們做必要的一個調效跟缺改來達到出海的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10276.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10287.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
其實這兩個系統其實都是非常有關海空號的基本安全的重要的系統現在潛艦的IPMS系統如果沒有發揮整個作用的話那等於是在開一艘二戰時期的潛艦每個部分都是要怎麼作動甚至船艦發生起火還有進水還有漏電都需要靠人力用含的潛艦還不能進行自動損管也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10300.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10311.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
健庭在遭受損害的時候還沒有辦法自行去應急這整個處理就像我們的人體一樣所有的器官都是好的但是神經系統沒有用大腦指令傳達出問題這不是就像了自律神經一樣失調嗎請問一下你們認為可以讓一個自律神經失調的潛艦出海這樣是安全的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10322.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10343.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
跟委員報告它整個IPMS它是一個整合的一個測試它其實重要的是在它的自動控制信號的傳輸那包含我們現在現有兩條那個海龍跟海虎級它的設計的方法跟這個自動化程度也是有一定的這一個演進的所以現在的海昆圈當然是比海龍海虎要好 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10345.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10350.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
但它基本的操作它有一定的安全連動性就算這些的IPMS信號傳輸跟整個操控上我們還是會從裡面整個連動裡面它還有一些如果說我們有沒測到但是我們的系統都可以做到一些安全的一個管控的部分這些小部分的部分我們都繼續在做一些調效跟測試之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10367.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10379.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
其實整艘潛艦我看不論是主系統次系統還有子系統幾乎都是要靠電力系統來供電但是偏偏電力系統的問題到現在都還沒有辦法解決尤其是損管的問題整個潛艦的鏡頭還有感測器都是必須要有電才可以如果損管這個整個系統如果沒有辦法偵測潛艦是否有進水還有火災還有煙霧這個問題都要靠人力來回報這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10395.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10400.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
潛艦安全是十分的堪慮的那自動充電的具體是硬體問題還是軟體的問題呢還有電力系統究竟還有哪些問題還沒有解決的還是根本沒有辦法解決到底是發生了什麼問題可以說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10411.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10428.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
各位委員報告 委員您剛才有提到它整個潛艦是靠主機來發電發電端之後它會到我們的電瓶系統在把整個的推動力的這個動力的傳輸到我們的後面的這個車業馬達來推動那所以它整個是一道比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10429.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10453.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我想我們在報告裡面也特別提到說一個潛艦的核心的一個關鍵就是它傳動動力能夠盡早地達成所以現在這個目前的部分都是單機的跟我們上次以三次扶航就是已經把這個動力的部分推進已經沒有問題了那後面針對有些信號在調校你剛才提那個損管的部分我們現在損管的部分都是正常並沒有如傳聞所說的其他的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10454.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10457.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以台灣其實要製造一個國造潛艦其實是非常困難我們當然都是可以體諒但是國防部也要再要跟大家說實話因為潛艦本來就是在一個極端環境下作戰的軍備都不能有任何的損失不然會危害國軍的人命而且甚至影響國民和國家的士氣所以絕對是不可以有任何失誤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10478.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10486.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
過去關於潛艦的意外其實往往代價都是付出都是非常的沉重所以請國防部千萬千萬不要省略了任何安全性的測試的步驟可以保證嗎報告委員我們這個部長已經一再的對外公開說明絕對是在安全的情況下我們才會繼續進行一切的測試跟這個調教那剛才也說過了外面很多現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10503.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10517.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
傳聞並不是真實的那我們只是我們是在測試的過程中的確遭遇到一些delay跟一些要重新調整的問題那我們現在還在繼續努力所以建造的部分是完全按照節點進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10518.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10542.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
測試的部分遭到部分的這個這個延後那我們也現在也發覺出問題來繼續在持續的做後續的這個進一步的這個調整讓這個可以做完整並且安全的測試能達到這個潛艦的公式性能所以是的我們會非常重視在安全的原則之下我們才來完成這個潛艦的建造 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10542.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10550.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
接下來我再請教一個問題就是海空號未來開始做潛航測試的時候會有深水潛航對不對是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10553.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10574.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
潛艦最大的設計就是下潛的深度一般來說這個是機密的啦但是不代表不用測試如果不做最大的深潛的測試的話海軍就沒有辦法知道在極端的環境下會遇到什麼問題甚至能不能下潛到最大的設計深度我想請教一下就是海空號會做到最大的深潛的測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10576.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10586.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這是當然都會做這當然就是跟這艘潛艦能不能達到我們設計的工性是有非常密切的關係當然該做的測試我們一定都會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10587.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10591.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好所以剛才我們談了那麼多像這些問題海軍有沒有預計有沒有什麼克服的時間還是說國防部隊延後時程根本都沒有辦法掌握我們都有部裡頭實際上他這個每個禮拜都會過來跟部長做這個專案的報告那我們都有掌握他現在遭遇到的問題還有他們排除的方法以及後續我們要達成的目標國防部都有掌握我們也有這個信心這海軍號可以海軍可以在一定的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10617.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10621.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
目標原則之下把它達成我們所需要達成的目的好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10631.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10657.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
好 謝謝今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有王定宇委員沈伯陽委員楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部已書面於兩週內答覆委員另約定期限者從其所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10659.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10673.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
今天有特別要求台船跟我們海軍還有國防部要一併的去確認提供相關的資料另外也把我們就是要測的深度也提供資料 好不好好 接下來本日會議到此結束謝謝大家 散會 |