| IVOD_ID |
16950 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16950 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-16T08:32:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-16T15:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
06:57:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685a212a47f970ca703bd9399736f1e161fb5dbf79f23f633bb94e3ac2677f7c36d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查
一、行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
三、委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
四、委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
五、委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
六、委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
七、委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
八、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
九、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十、委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十一、委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十二、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十三、委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十四、委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十五、委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十六、委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十七、委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。
十八、委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十九、委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十一、委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十二、委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等26人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十四、委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十五、委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十六、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十七、委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十八、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十九、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
【逐條討論】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:54 - 15:30:00 |
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1613.186 |
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1618.983 |
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好 可以好 現在繼續開會 |
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1621.694 |
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1645.553 |
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本會議議程為繼續審查行政院函請審議委員分別凝聚兒童托育服務法草案等29案現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員第一位是王俊旭王委員還是部長反應最快第二位是陳昭之陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1649.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1662.363 |
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然後衛福部我們部長石崇良部長早社交署代理署長周道軍法規會參事陳信成保護服務師專門委員張靖倫醫師師檢證記證呂煉慈國民健康署檢證記證胡怡君內政部副政司科長黃宏林 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1677.714 |
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1706.077 |
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警政署防治署科長鄭世維謝謝國土管理署建築管理署上湖市專員葉先鋒葉先鋒先生好 很好消防署救災救護署代理科長莊念恩好 謝謝財政部國有財政署副組長吳巧梅謝謝國庫署科長洪培明 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1708.026 |
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1718.11 |
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謝謝 教育部國民及學前教育署副處長郭志銀 謝謝 法務部參事汪岸君經濟部人事處專門委員張雅惠勞動部勞動福祉退休師專門委員李娟鳳勞動條件及就業評理師專門委員顧家榮謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1734.19 |
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1755.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
勞動關係師專員許瓊月金融監督管理委員會保險局專門委員王祺華援助民主委員會社會福利處專門委員柯雪燕行政院人事行政總署給予福利處專門委員謝艾倫個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組科長陳錦怡 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1764.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1786.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 謝謝先做一下說明本委員會先前就行政院及委員所提兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案進行逐條審查那經決議保留條文及第四七條以下條文另折起繼續審查那有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1789.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1807.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那我們現在繼續審查兒童托育符法草案等29案自院版第47條以下條文及保留條文接續審查那一樣以行政院提案條次為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位來說明接著我們請委員來表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1808.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1832.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那委員會在這邊另外做個宣告我們一時審到中午12點20會給這所有的參與的這個官員還有我們議事組人員還有委員休息到下午兩點再繼續審查那我們後面還有49條因為大致上還有19條尚未審查 之前保留三十幾條各位以上跟各位做一個報告我們現在開始來 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1840.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1866.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 我們現在來針對第47條那47條有最後一個陳培議委員跟黎叔委員是分別在54條跟56條然後修正動議有林慧琴委員還有劉建國委員有所提修正動議好 那我們請行政單位來先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1868.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1885.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
行政院版的47條的部分主要是針對這些托育案件有經過調查之後調查結果的通知的方式那在各委跟各委員的版本比較的結果其中內容比較有不一樣的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1886.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1907.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
是范雲委員的版本跟范雲委員和伍麗華委員的版本希望對於這個調查報告的內容這個調查報告本身就是報告本身能夠直接提供給這個法定代理人跟實際照顧兒童之人那這個部分的話我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1909.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1934.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們建議我們覺得這個文字是可以參考因為他和幼教法現行的做法是比較一致的我們會我們覺得他是可以參查進來所以我們有準備一個版本的建議的調整的文字那同仁剛剛有一個單張有發給各位委員請各位委員來做一個參考那我們建議是不是可以依照這個文字來做一個處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1936.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1951.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好 這個行政機關已經做說明齁 那這邊是有林月琴委員的修正動議啦齁 還有范雲委員跟我的修正動議齁 那其他的委員應該是大同小異來 委員要不要表示意見來 請范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1956.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1984.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
很高興看到衛福部這邊有準備一個條文因為我現在現場才看到我先講一下這個部分為什麼很重要就是之前家長居然會拿不到調查報告然後幼兒園可能以各種理由沒有給他調查報告事實上這個就是一個受害當事人及其代理人的權益嚴重受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1985.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2010.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那調查報告本身就是應該不是遮蔽就是加害人行為的一個工具那因為之前我沒有看到衛福部的版本那我們認為就是說這幾個重大的問題就是第一個一定要處理的是讓兒童的法定代理人或是實際照顧兒童的人能夠知道調查的結果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2011.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2034.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那之前我們有案例就是台東縣的關山案就是這樣他從今年1月初案件發生並通報後那第一個案件發生根本沒有通知家長那第二個他調查的時候才告知家長所以我們當時強調從46跟47一起的就是第一個調查事情發生一定要告知家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2036.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2057.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第二個部分就是處理的過程也要提供兒童保護及資源這個部分也是在46條的 那個已經保留了 我就一起講一下第三個就是我們47條所講的被害者無法自動取得調查報告我看起來 現在我們是解決這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2060.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2072.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第四個問題就是被害兒童及家長針對調查處理結果毫無救濟的機制這部分你們好像沒有放進去 因為我現在對 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2074.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2091.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為我的47條最後一句話是並因在民不服調查結果之救濟方法期間及其受理機關那你們的版本前面參考我的條文可是這個部分沒有放進去不知道考量是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2092.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2116.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那我可以跟大家分享因為我們在那個校園性別事件性別暴力事件的調查報告一定會附這個話因為那個到時候也一定會有相關的爭議如果有人不服這個調查報告不管是所謂的行為人或是加害人或者是受害者那他在上面就會知道他的相關權益譬如說是到地方政府的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2118.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2139.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
社會局或等等的話所以這部分衛福部可不可以說明一下後面為什麼沒有這個文字說並因在民不服調查結果之救濟方法期間及其受理機關我就這個疑問那我肯定衛福部47條這個家長跟代理人看調查報告的權益放進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2142.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2171.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
來 請說明跟委員報告 那這個我們在參查委員意見把調查報告的部分納到條文的建議文字裡面那有關在這個調查結果後面救濟的教室的部分那這個因為是考慮到現行在行政程序法跟相關規定裡面大概都已經有一個比較一致性的規範對於這個這一類的這個結果因為它會有一個都一致它是一個屬於類似行政處分的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2172.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2186.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以他本來在這個最後的結果的時候對於被調查的對象要怎麼樣去提出救濟那這個部分的話是已經可以用現有的法規就已經可以處理那范委員比較關心的部分是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2187.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2208.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
對於這個如果是在這個事件裡面他可能是小朋友的家長的部分是不是可以提起救濟的這一段那這個部分的話我們經過一個討論我們經過一個評估那因為考慮到現在這個他和這個在現行的因為他並不是他是這個事件的被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2209.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2233.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那在一般來說大概對於行政救濟的部分是對於處分的對象才會去做提供一個所謂的救濟管道那所以在這樣的情況之下其實以行政就以這個調查結果報告結果救濟的角度來講他主要的受處分對象是這個行為人的部分也就是可能是學校的老師或者相關工作人員這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2234.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2256.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那我們是覺得這個如果把它擴及到對於被害人去這個可以去透過申請行政救濟和以往整個對於行政救濟的這個適用對象可能會在法制上有比較不一致的地方所以我們評估了一下我們並沒有將他納進來這個是大概我們初步的一個大概評估的結果跟委員報告好 來 請換委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2260.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2275.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我想可能是那個救濟的這個意思就是有一個法定的意義是你剛所講的就是行為人這個部分我講的其實就是受害者的權益當然就是說行為人也會不服這個調查結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2277.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2304.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
受害者因為真實的狀況裡面有很多調查報告就會不成立所以家長或是受害人代理人一定都會希望有一個用我們的話講或者是申付或者是再申訴的機會跟機關因為校園的相關的調查事件都會非常的明確一定要告知所以我還是有點不了解說為什麼不能有這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2307.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2332.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那就是另外就是說你們有沒有可能用附帶決議去想一下他這個部分應該是怎麼處理啊因為我是覺得真實的情況就是會發生這樣的事情啊就是調查不成立然後家長覺得想申訴然後你說你要叫他去打什麼就是說行政相關的那個程序嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2340.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2361.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
跟委員報告這個部分的話我們是覺得這個部分如果是因為這個我們當初是沒有採納委員的這樣的文字我們主要是考慮到說在一個行政救濟體系裡面有一個比較一貫性的做法那如果是只是單純的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2362.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2385.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
讓家長對於這個調查的結果有一個表示意見的機會但是這樣的一個表示意見的過程如果並不是屬於它後續不會牽動到相關的行政救濟的話那這個部分的話我想我們的文字我們可以來評估看看是不是也許是在條文或者是我們的未來在這個整個因為它整個後續調查我們還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2386.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2402.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
授權的法規命令那在那個法規命令對於家長對於那個裡面調查結果如果有疑問的話可以要求主管機關來做一個相關的釐清或者是說明這個部分我們應該是可以來做相關的處理以上來 請換委員再請林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2404.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2418.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
謝謝就是你剛剛的用語還一直就是說行政救濟可是你前面不是說行政救濟只有涉及到那個加害人就是行為人他的權益受損才能行政救濟嗎我現在講的就是家長或是代理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2419.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2436.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
看到報告調查報告不成立的時候他一定覺得要有一個申訴或者再申訴或者是申復的機會可是你剛剛講了就變成只剩下釐清這個報告有沒有看不清楚我來協助你 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2436.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2454.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
因為這跟我們在校園的不管是霸凌事件或者是性別暴力事件的處置方式都不太一樣因為那邊也會涉及到非常多家長老師都有相關的調查報告的一個不同意所以你們是覺得這個就不要開放了是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2456.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2471.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
跟委員報告這邊我們大概在這個現在在托育服務法我們現在條文裡面會聚焦在行為人的他的這個對小朋友的行為那是不是在行政上有一定要去做處罰的動作去做的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2472.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2488.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那這樣的調查本來就這個對於家長另外如果說覺得在這個事件裡面對於小朋友有任何刑事或者是民事的侵害這個部分其實這個在整個所有的救濟途徑不會因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2490.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2505.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主管機關在行政上這個調查會有相關的排斥這個各種救濟管道都是並行的所以在這邊來看的話那所以我們當然這個未來各種管道如果在做相關的救濟的過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2505.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2522.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那行政機關所做的調查或有需要了解的部分所以我們覺得是說如果有需要那家長對於行政調查過程中有相關的疑問或者對於調查結果的地方有相關的有需要進一步了解的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2522.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2539.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那我們是覺得在這個部分因為它只要不涉及屬於家長在有所謂行政救濟權這樣的一個概念之下的話那我們覺得在這樣的一個結構底下我們來修正文字我們是可以來想辦法來配合以上那請林委員林淳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2542.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2558.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這個救濟制度我的版本是沒有特別提出不過就是說如果要討論救濟制度之前我們是不是如果真的要放進去的話要先加一個生富的制度這樣子比較迅速明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2559.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2578.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
但是我今天要講的不是這個救濟的制度而是說我們在講說希望審議小組的調查結果報告如果可以是完整但如果不行的話就至少他的摘要應該要以適當的方式公開供公眾去查閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2579.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2597.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那這樣的資訊可以查閱得到那可以來大家有前車之鑑或者是某一些所或是行為人的這個相關的行為讓我們家長更了解然後去保護兒童保障這個家長之的權利進而保護兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2598.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2610.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
兼顧當事人又能夠兼顧相當的隱私的話看要怎麼樣一個技術性的規範但是就是說我們希望能夠用適當的方式把調查報告公開來 請示範回應針對林委員部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2624.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2633.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我想我們這個跟委員說明一下就是因為這既是一個行政處分他有兩兆啦就是有加害人跟被害人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2633.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2654.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那很可能這個一定有對一方不利不論你做成任何的處分決定一定都是有一方不利嘛那都應該要讓不利方有提出救濟的機會所以應該是雙兩兆對決議啦不要去針對報告的內容如果報告內容的話會爭議不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2655.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2664.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
主要是對那個決議的內容如果有不符的話來讓他有這個救濟我想這個我們文字上我們著一下這樣那所以這條我們就先保留然後再請行政官部長講的是救濟制度我們講的是要公眾要公開讓公眾查閱你這點沒有回到 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2686.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2693.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我談的不是救濟我談的是整個調查審議小組的調查報告要公開來請署長跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2703.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2731.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
委員版本的56條有提到審議小組的調查結果要摘要公開的部分那這個部分的話我們是覺得如果要公開那當然這個委員已經提到是用摘要這個部分我想我們到後面在於後面在於執行的技術的部分我們應該是可以來思考怎麼樣來辦理因為委員應該已經有考因為這類的案件調查結果在公開的時候其實同步要去兼顧我們會建議是不是有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2732.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2748.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
因為這個公開的部分的話是不是有可能未來擺在法規命令裡面來一併處理不是 我們在母法裡面要授權要明定才能夠在法規裡面你們去處理如果在母法裡面沒有授權明定的話他們可以主張憑什麼公開啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2749.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2764.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
人民的權利義務這個整個調查報告牽扯到兩兆雙方很多的爭執還有你們還要談救濟制度代表它有可能不是最終因為行政處分以外這個通常加害被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2764.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2780.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
他整個制度的完成他除了行政處分還可以提起刑事或民事上的這個一些訴訟很多人都是三軌並進而你的行政處分我們要求你行政處分先公開如果你在法律裡面沒有民權的這個保留原則定下去的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2782.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2797.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個會引起很大的爭議的如果大家你同意了那就必須在法律裡面明文規定放進去那我們才能夠授權給你去執法規範相關的細節公開到哪裡公開的進行的那個應該要規範什麼東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2800.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2828.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
如果沒有母法的授權這個是不可能的所以我們的文字絕對要放進去而我們的文字是抽象形成只是說你的那個審議小組的調查結果報告摘要應公開就只是這樣子而已我們講的已經授權給你們很大的這個空間了所以理論上母法裡面不能夠沒有這幾個字然後你就說你執法自己去定這個是不行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2831.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2836.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這樣子就違反法律保留原則這一定絕對是一定要符合法律保留原則的對 請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2848.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2868.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個部分我們覺得要公開我們可以來配合辦理如果要放到文字的部分如果要採納進來擺在條文的部分我們建議是不是因為前段的現在的條文前段是針對結果的通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2869.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2888.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那公開的部分應該是概念上它應該是另外一件事項我們建議是不是文字我們可以把它拆到第二項去因為它這個兩件事情稍微有點先後順序的部分我們是不是可以把它拆到怎麼拆我們沒有意見但是要放進去我們的文字就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2889.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2910.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那我們來整理相關的文字對 就剛剛針對幻影委員的嘛還有林俗武委員的 你們把文字整理出來之後我們再來處理嘛 好不好那就先保留 好然後繼續審查第40 院版是48條齁多數委員都48條 那月刑委員是62條還有林俗武委員是57條 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2923.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2930.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
有修正動議林運勤委員也有修正動議我們請行政機關來表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2941.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2963.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第48條行政院版第48條以及其他各委員的相關的版本的部分那這條主要的規範的內容是針對在托育相關人員執行職務有知悉知道違法事件的通報義務那各委員對於通報的時間的部分原則上大體都相同大概是時不可以超過24小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2966.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2986.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
另外有相關的委員有提到對於這個通報人員的部分等於他有一個類似檢舉人這樣的一個性質所以我們也覺得這樣的一個觀念對於通報人的身份可以對於相關的保密雖然是我們現在行政院版的嫖文只有針對通報人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2988.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3006.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
不可以做相關不利的處分但是對於保密的部分我們現在文字上寫的不是那麼的明確所以我們是覺得可以參裁委員的領域行政委員的一個動議的文字我們有建議是不是在這個行政院版的條文裡面增加一個第二項那 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3007.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3028.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們現在那個文字有 單張有提供給各位委員那也秀在投影螢幕上我們建議第二項的部分是不是甄列一個前項通報人之身份資料應予保密 以上好 各位委員來 請陳教授委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3030.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3050.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這一條當然利益是良好的但是有部分民間團體有關切那可能實際上會出現他說如果這個通報如果有出於個人恩怨或其他非正當東西進行惡意通報那這個時候是不是有衛福部有沒有評估說惡意或虛偽通報的部分的相關規範就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3052.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3075.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
可不可能設計進去當然就是能夠兼顧這個通報保護跟濫用的一個平衡這是第一個點那第二個點就是說雖然這裡是我們要求就不得為的不利處分但是這個類似吹哨者保護條款就怎麼樣去落實通報者沒有受到不利處分那通報人被秋後算帳要 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3076.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3080.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
如何讓主管機關知道 就是這裡可不可能再稍微具體一點謝謝來 請林署委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3087.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3115.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們的版本大概增加了一個比較明確上的這個通報義務的那一類人就是居家托育服務中心的工作人員因為這樣講可能會比較明確所以我們希望把這個居托中心的通報工作人員不管他是不是托育相關即便是行政人員他們都要有通報的義務這樣子所以希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3117.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3121.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
比較規範的比較更明確一點包含的範圍比較多一點這樣子好 其他委員嗎 委員是59條來請來來請王智旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3143.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3163.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這一條本身是沒有其他意見不過之前的修正動議好像有在第二項裡面直接在托育機構的前面有追加了直轄市縣市主管機關這樣的字眼那它的用意是說因為也說托育相關的人員會包括副主任等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3163.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3191.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那如果需要把這個縣市機關延納進來讓他有更明確的這些職長上的處理的話他是建議在托育機構的前面把這個直轄縣市的主管機關的文字延納進來讓他的這個職長可以更明確以上有吧這個應該有他講的直轄是是沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3194.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3200.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
其實機關有聽到王源的說話啦所長你剛剛有聽到王正修委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3202.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3232.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我再補充一下就是說實務上會發生遇到兒少全法通報的時候縣市地方政府會不准居家托育服務中心的人自行決定通報他們會認為說他們不是被規範為法定通報的義務的人員所以我們希望在這裡我們可以把這些通報義務人明確化那當然是要包含這個居托中心的這個工作人員是這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3236.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3256.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
來 請 林月晴委員三十五如果先改成托育相關人員就要回去看你的定義本來如果講托育相關人員的話就會少掉淑芬委員講的那個居托中心的工作人員可是他們也是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3256.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3280.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
可能知悉第一線因為他們會去接觸到保母帶的孩子可是會把他漏掉就是說如果你只是泛指說托育相關人員所以你回過頭來去看你的前面定義裡邊可是我看前面定義並沒有把拘托人員的那個涵蓋性如果有涵蓋性那總包了就沒有太大問題原本的在監理室有啦對啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3286.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3287.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
或居家退伍中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3293.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3320.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那署長 剛剛針對幾位委員的針對委員所提到的部分那第一個就是現在院版的條文本來是只有列居家托育相關人員那也參考對不起 應該是我剛才一開始有報告上面稍微有報告的不夠完整那我們在這個通報人員的範圍的部分那有參考委員相關版本的建議我們有把居家托育服務中心的人員也有把它納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3322.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3341.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以在那個給各位委員的我們的建議文字裡面有把它列進去那這個是第一點所以這個王正旭跟林委員幾位所提到的這個通報的部分通報義務人的部分我們是有把它放寬有把它再放寬一些那這樣也可以跟這個解決掉他漢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3341.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3369.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
而造法中間的一個落差然後第二個那有關於這個對於通報人通報之後如果僱主給他的不當給他的一些不利處分的部分那現在我們在這一條的第二應該說我們現在照建議文這是第三項他不應該要做一些不利處分的話那這條的話在後面罰則是有配套的有對於這個僱主的部分如果有不利處分的話他是可以帶相關的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3370.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3390.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那所以我們大概還是有一個規制的一個動作那這樣的一個說明請委員參考 謝謝好 各位是不是照院版還有各位委員所提的這個版本文字來做修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3395.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3416.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
因為在實務上你說它包含但是呢事實上在通報上跟兒少犬法有落差所以多加這幾個字應該也不會有什麼多加這幾個有加進去了嗎好可以OK好OK好謝謝那各位在省的時候就看這本大本的最左邊對 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3420.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3447.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
建議最新修正的既然有投影就投在上面這樣子委員比較不會搞混大家都一律就是一方面對照一方面最新版其實就是螢幕上面好不好因為有同仁隨時在校對嘛這樣就不會混淆你看那邊就寫得很清楚你們最新更新的就一律投在上面好不好對對對因為有時候你可能調整了文字那最新版就在上面大家再看一下好 這個文字各位再看一下有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3448.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3469.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
沒有啦沒有那我們就這樣建立照行政院的提案委員林淑溫等25點提案委員王育民等24點提案還有林業勤委員的修正都議後來修正後通過可以啦吼文字沒有問題應該就這樣了啦好謝謝那我們繼續審查第院版49條 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3472.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3479.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那這個委員禮願請是59條還有一個修正動議王玉敏委員是56條還有林淑美是58條 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3489.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3503.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
好 請行政機關表示意見行政院版的第49條主要是針對機構在禁用相關所有的人員的時候他的應該要做相關的人員的通報跟他的資格的查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3504.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3518.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那人員有異動的時候也需要辦理相關的查詢的動作以確定他的資格或者也沒有一些先前曾經或有過的一些不適正的行為的狀況可以透過查詢的動作能夠去做一些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3520.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3535.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
各委員的版本大體上的內容都是還算都有一定程度的相近我們在文字的部分有放在投影幕上也有提供單張給各位委員這個考慮到文字整個規範的周延性 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3536.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3554.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們會建議是不是除了托育相關人員以外一併把居家托育服務中心的工作人員的部分也一併納進來這個是我們的建議那另外有一個訊息跟委員報告因為49條的部分會跟先前的38 39 40 41 42 46條的規定都有一些關聯那其中38 39 42 46當時是有才事是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3563.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3588.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好 那這個部分 續集也跟各位一併報告好 所以建立就保留嘛 對不對我們建議說如果文字 現在的文字結構如果沒有問題先保留那後面的話 後面再看條就會很快是 還是一樣建立保留啊 對啦好 那這一條我們就先行保留啦對 到前面審那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3597.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3611.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們的版本跟行政部門的版本還有概念上的不一樣就是說合備的時間像我們居托中心受委辦單位聘僱的工作人員前或者是說受委辦單位聘僱工作人員後 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3613.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3639.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個概念是核備的時間部分院版是聘僱前核准那我們的版本是聘僱後核備 聘僱前核准已經先進這個系統查詢有無不良記錄了那聘僱後再補職本資料核備那我們用的是目前現在幼兒園現行的做法那對於這個聘僱前的核准還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3639.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3654.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
有一些爭議可能有一些需要解決的現行實務上的問題第一個就是前單位的雇主在系統上還沒有退掉然後當事人無法自行退系統然後這個雇主登不進去這個系統裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3656.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3678.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個是第一個 這個是根據幼兒園現在經常面臨的問題他們發現你說你要錢就核准是利益良善但是在實務面就是會有我剛剛講的那個第一個問題第二個短暫的代理期間怎麼處理如果代理單日的臨時人員如何在聘僱前核准呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3679.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3705.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那如果沒有解決上面這個兩個問題的話你的聘僱前核准是真的有辦法落實嗎那另外一個不同的點就是資格核備這個人員資格是不是符合的我們的版本是就職後30天內你必須要去查清楚那托嬰中心也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3706.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3721.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那事實上我們的版本院院版也有一個共同就是說要三個月內刑事記錄證明書其實這個在陳情案件裡面也經常會看到很多行業職業別都說要良民證 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3722.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3738.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
大家都知道良民證在開的時候其實很多技巧的你是要他20年的紀錄還是10年的紀錄他說我曾經有酒駕紀錄那你不能擔任某一種職務的話叫警察局給你開5年的紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3739.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3753.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
他拿五年的紀錄因為沒有規範嘛所以五年的紀錄裡面他酒駕是六年前所以就可以閃掉了那其實我們要一個三個月九十天裡面的紀錄其實這種東西的規範到底意義在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3754.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3770.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
有時候也是要想一想你要人家一個三個月內的這個刑事記錄的證明書三個月的意義是什麼這個是實務面太常遇到了所以我是提出來跟大家討論一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3777.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3786.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好沒關係那你的那個那你三個月內要拿一個是多久的警察局要幫你證明多久的5年的10年的20年的還是幾年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3789.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3812.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對 我就跟你講 警察局我們處理服務案件經常會處理到我要一個良民證 證明我沒有刑事記錄好 你六年前有酒駕照逃那我就給你開個五年的如果法律上沒有規範這個那不是一樣的意思嗎你三個月內要檢附一個良民證沒有刑事記錄的證明那我們要它這個東西的意義在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3813.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3826.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
也可以討論 我並不是覺得說一定要規範怎麼樣多高的強度 我沒有特定意見但是就是說我們把這個條件放上去的意義在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3829.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3849.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
首先跟委員報告就是我們現在的條文版本基本上我們還是希望人員在到職前先去做他的資格確認那這個部分先前大概有跟各個地方政府來做一些討論那主要的考量點各地方政府大概也有意見基本上是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3849.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3870.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那主要也是考慮到說希望人員在禁用的時候就能夠先確認他的資格他也沒有沒有不適任的情形那而確實林委員所提到的這些狀況會可能因為實務執行上的時候當事人因為工作轉換的關係前一個單位也許在行政上面還來不及這個去做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3872.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3894.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
註記的撤銷會造成新的單位來不及去查詢等等我想這個部分行政上的一些現在可能面臨到的一些不方便我們可以透過跟地方政府以及跟在資訊系統上面的一些優化我們來試著做一些解決那我們會建議是不是考慮到說讓工作人員在進入職場的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3895.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3919.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
能夠在進入的那一刻就確定他的沒有不適任的情況以免會有發生這個比較極端的情形是進來以後雖然也許只有短短的幾天但是一查查發現有狀況的時候還要叫他離職這樣反而對 可能相對來說會有另外一面的副作用那第二個就是委員所提到的就是這個辦理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3922.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3941.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
等於是良民證的這個工作效期的部分那現在在條文裡面我們是沒有明文的去規定說他如果要去申請這樣無不良紀錄的文件他要往前去查證多長的時間那這個部分的話我們是可以後續在有關這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3943.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3962.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這個條文最後一項的授權的辦法裡面那我們去跟地方政府去討論那如果說真的需要到 例如說查到他終身我想這個部分只要如果真的是很嚴重的行為要查到終身我想只要大家有共識我們也都非常願意配合來辦理以上來 林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3965.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3979.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
因為過往沒有特別去做規定因為大概基本上都檢舉的只有半年所以我覺得剛剛淑芬委員問的事實上是很有意義的就是說到底我們要的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3980.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3999.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
你如果是他半年前沒有違反相關規定你的消極資格真的是沒有違反可是如果放眼往前推他搞不好一年前或兩年前有這些的違反你消極資格那這樣子的消極資格的阻擋大概都沒有什麼意義因為只有半年的這樣的一個效期 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3999.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4015.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
不管是居托人員或者是托嬰中心的人都是一樣的所以這個是不是要在這次訂我覺得我們可以真的來做充分討論那剛才另外一個就是的確有緣一直以來甚至後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4016.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4038.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
托嬰中心也有這樣的問題就是說如果你要在之前把這些東西繳的話那當然就要先來做核備的確現場會有個困難過去是一個月就是你就任後一個月內一定要把這些東西去繳交然後去做核備可是如果說現在要之前的話這幾年食物現場比較常碰到的會是 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4039.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4055.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我早上面試的人我今天如果沒有允諾他然後呢他下午就已經可能就回答我說那他可能或是明天因為我們要等到這些資料而且我們都要講說要合備政府機關之後可以之後我才可以聘用你 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4056.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4083.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那一個是我現在就持續用它嗎還是我就不能用它然後我就要等等等到那個那這中間也會有一段時間事實上我不知道如果它先進來因為過往是一個月可是現在要這樣這真的要充分討論我覺得當初會改成說之前也是有因為發生了一些事情可是現在的實務現場就是會碰到這樣的困難說我真的就是找不到人那這個空窗期時間可能會拉得更長 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4083.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4090.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以我覺得這兩個東西等下都是我們要充分討論的一些要件 以上好 再請林淑媛好 我在這裡再補充一下就是說在聘僱前核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4100.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4126.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那在如果實務上做得到的話我們是更支持沒有反對我必須要表達我的意見如果你一定要說在事前核准然後要查查看他有沒有不適應的狀況的話精神我們都相當的支持但我們只要求你社家屬要把程序面顧好然後讓執行面執行面是可行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4127.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4152.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
要兼顧他的可行性而現在你們在執行面可行性上其實就是不存在我們才會講說你不要打高空但是如果說你們覺得你們做得到了你們的能力你們的系統整個一化的程度了你們已經精進了馬上就可以執行了那麼我們百分之百贊成就是這樣子而已來請王育平委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4158.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4185.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個我請主管機關回應一下就是說你現在是9條這些相關規定如果他已經原來就在托育機構服務的人員他是不是就可以剛剛委員就是有兩種意見就是實務現場因為是缺人那我覺得缺人的情況底下如果他是第一次從事的一定是重演我覺得這個沒有話說因為你不可能冒這個風險讓他先進來再說 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4188.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4213.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以他第一次從事這個托育服務的一定是從嚴他一定是要檢據這一些但是有另外一種情況是他只是機構之間的轉換所以我覺得這個條文並沒有寫得很清楚我個人的意見比較是第一次從事的這一些托育服務人員一定是從嚴所以就比較原來的條文但可以有個但書是如果原來他就在這個領域服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4214.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4240.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
就代表其實他已經就是有被審查過那這個可以允許他就是還要再次檢驗的這個部分比如說是什麼可能就差一個良民證而已比如說剛剛有講他的他可能已經從事很久從事10年了那他到新一個如果這個機構要把關的更嚴格重新他的這個良民證請他再檢附但是這種我覺得就可以彈性讓他允許他就是先 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4241.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4265.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
先進到這個職場暫時再補件的方式這個大家可以考慮看看因為這樣是解決既要把關又因應這個實務上面的確會有立刻馬上要補人的這個需求那他如果已經是一個有經驗而且過去沒有發生什麼不良記錄我覺得不用每一個都是重新再來一遍這個可以考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4267.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4291.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
好 這一條我們還是先行保留啦 好不好然後到再請這個行政院提 研理一下是不是有些文字上可以做調整到時候再提出來討論 那繼續我們審查院版第五十條然後年月刑委員是六十三條王毓民是第六十條還有署務委員是五十九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4294.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4321.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那還有一個修正動議是王振旭委員的修正動議好 我們先請行政機關來做說明行政委員碼第50條主要規範的內容是當這個知道這些托育的相關人員主要是尤其是像居家托育人員如果他的有同居親屬的時候有相關涉及到這樣案件的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4322.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4337.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那他有在調查期間的時候這個可以做一些必要的一些暫時性的一些相關的處理那這個條文的部分其實在文字的條文的實體內容部分和各委員中間的差異並不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4338.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4356.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那其中主要的不太一樣的地方是張雅玲委員的版本那張雅玲委員的建 她有一個動議那她是希望說可以是案件的情形來命居家托育人員暫停托育的這部分是不是有些是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4357.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4371.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
主要是暫停在新收的托育個案那對於原有的部分是不是一定要去做似乎是可以有一些討論的空間那這個部分的話我們是建議這個如果是有在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4373.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4401.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
對於這個托育的相關人員有這樣的一些疑慮的時候我們還是建議是不是可以優先考慮做相同的處理那文字的部分我們建議可以照行政院版的條文那只是因為這個條文最後一併跟委員報告他和先前保留的第46條的條文有一些關聯是不是要一併保留也一併跟委員參考 以上好那各位委員沒有什麼要表示意見的那請您詢問委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4407.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4414.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
抱歉我看一下其實我們跟行政院的版本就是有一個很大的很重要的一個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4415.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4439.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
因為行政院的版本只有暫停新收托那我們在第一項後段堅持必要時得令暫停新收托兒童還要加一個或暫停所有的托育服務因為如果遇到非常嚴重的案子應該連現有的已經收托的都應該暫停收托 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4440.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4466.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以縣市政府到時候他其實應該更明確要講縣市政府應該協助家長轉托所以我們在講說如果非常嚴重的時候我們要按母法裡面明定把這一個工具和手段要交到縣市政府或是行政部門手上然後其實我覺得我們版本應該還可以再加一個就是還要責成這個縣市政府應協助家長轉托 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4468.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4496.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以不管是新或舊 通通嚴重的時候都要停止這個是要明確化 謝謝好 請問資訊委員在相關的臨時動議裡面蔡雅琳委員她是有提到說認為必要時在第一項的最後必要時得令其暫停新收兒童新收託的兒童的話相對來講可能有所不足因為可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4498.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4521.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
還必須要加說如果是情節事件的情節的嚴重度如果情節嚴重的話可能都要把這個整個托育服務都要做暫停所以才會新增文字說或是事件情節命急暫停托育服務那剛剛林書文委員有提到是否要安排他另托這是另外的需要去關注的事情以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4524.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4544.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 這條還是保留啦因為要配合那個4、6條的部分嘛好 那我們繼續這條就先請保留 繼續來審查但是我們這個文字應該可以放上去你們調次的問題是保留 保留調次的問題但我們的內容應該是沒有爭議有共識吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4547.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4559.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對於現有已經收託嚴重的時候也應該要終止而且地方政府縣市政府應該要負責協助家長轉託這個到時候如果有事件個案發生這個一定是這樣處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4561.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4588.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
跟委員報告在這個部分現在這個不管是委員的版本的條文還是行政院版的部分現在在調查期間的在第一項裡面的文字就已經有規範到要這個在調查期間的時候要協助托育機構居家托育人員依照法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人的意願來做轉介收托那必要時可以來加強房市 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4588.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4611.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那必要時才會去暫停新托那也就是說在這個現有托育的部分他是要告知家長然後家長要轉托的時候那建議就一定要起來做相關的協助責成地方政府有責任協助這個我不爭執但我們的版本是嚴重的時候不是只有終止他的新收托 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4612.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4638.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
嚴重的時候就即便是現有的已經收拖的要照我們的版本或暫停已經托育的服務或是整個機構都應該暫停如果有用集體發生什麼集體現象對這個應該是這個是備而不用並不是說隨時可以啟發他就是萬一有嚴重的時候你不要再告訴我說法律沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4639.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4655.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
因為我們這裡明定了終止新收拖那當事人就會說你的法律講都只是講這個終止新收拖那我們舊的可以不用這會產生法律上的爭執所以如果明確的把它放上去的話以後不會有爭執 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4657.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4672.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們立法修法就是要讓所有的使用法律的人一看就知道而不能在立法的時候製造了未來可能而預見了未來可能會有的爭執而我們故意不處理這是不行的立法者有義務要明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4679.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4691.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
在文字上可以再做一些調整看看就是或是事件情節命其暫停或轉託予服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4693.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4711.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
就是把這兩種狀況都能夠含括進來避免只有新收拖兒童可是他這個情節如果真的是會影響到當時候在托育這些兒童的父子的話或者是權益的時候或者是家長的權益的時候可以同步來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4713.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4739.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好 請署長來回應謝謝兩位委員的意見根據這樣的 如果考慮到這樣的情況我們會建議就是在這個第一項的最後面我們就再多加一句話那就是情節重大者 命其暫停托育服務那這樣的話層次就會可以區分出來這樣是不是可以來回應到委員的剛才所提示的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4743.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4750.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那有文字有寫嗎 要不要對 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4769.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4770.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
看起來好像是可 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4779.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4802.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
對那因為事實上就是說如果沒有這一句話的話保母會還是可以繼續托育那有些案子很嚴重的狀況比如說小孩死了而且保母的涉案狀況很嚴重如何能夠讓這樣的保母繼續呢所以現在這個狀況情節重大者的命期佔多這個暫停所有的托育服務這是這樣應該可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4805.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4820.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 文字照這樣修 大家沒見啦 可以啦還是要先保留 知道啦 文字給各位參考那這條還是一樣 原則上文字就照這樣修正啦那我們還是先行保留那我們繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4822.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4839.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你們這個文字是說業者可以跟縣市政府求償如果不屬實的話判定錯誤的話這樣子我突然想到這樣子你不是讓縣市政府頭上放了一把刀他如果這個行政處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4840.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4855.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
他的那個情節嚴重的調查出來並沒有那麼嚴重然後大家都跟縣市政府求償那你這個工具等於沒有了怎麼會多加 你怎麼會多加剛才有多加一句在哪裡下面一項 那是本來就有的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4869.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4896.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你怎麼會已經加了那一項剛才下一項啊畫面怎麼會突然多了這一項呢如果地方政府依照我們所立的法律暫停了托育服務而調查結果認定他沒有違法情勢然後這些機構可以向地方政府請求合理的補償怎麼會有突然這一段跑出來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4901.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4927.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這一段是啥碗糕啊我剛才沒有念這一段啊可是你現在就有這一段啊這一段刪除這一段刪除啊沒有 你放在那裡我不能夠不一併看啊我們今天討論的字眼就只有這兩句話怎麼突然多了一項出來而且那一項是要允許業者去跟地方政府請求補償的 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4929.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4958.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這是什麼東西 為什麼要跑出這一段出來啦怎麼會長出這一段而我們大家都沒有討論突然就長出來了欸 我們在這裡也大家這麼多眼睛在看大家都沒有看到那一段然後你們就要偷偷摸摸就要過了嗎這會不會太荒謬我們已經拿掉了對啦 怎麼會有那一段跑出來你們怎麼會有那個概念 那個構想 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4959.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4981.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
他偷渡進來嗎這個也沒辦法偷渡啦因為我們還是照文字在審查啦沒有喔 剛才他就是這樣子他加那個 但是我們還是依照這邊的文字在做處理啦好不好 好沒有啊 那就是沒有人管得到啊沒有 你請說明啊 什麼人剛才把這個文字弄出來兇手自己承認好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4982.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5001.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
怎麼會跑出那段文字出來不好意思 我們剛才整理的時候我們確實前面曾經有評估過不過因為剛才跟委員報告的時候我們沒有要把這段拿進去應該是我們貼錯 跟委員抱歉好 那我們說明清楚了這條一樣先行保留我們繼續來審查院版第51條 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5007.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5014.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
然後林業勤委員是64條王玉銘委員是36條然後這個林淑文委員是第60條我們先請這個行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5027.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5055.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
行政院版的草案第51條主要是針對要求這個托育專業人與相關工作人員是不可以把證照出租或者是出借給其他那托育機構也不可以去租用這樣的規定那各委員的版本基本上文字都幾乎都相同我們建議是可以以行政院的版提案的草案的文字通過 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照行政院的版本來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5056.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5062.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
第51條那繼續審查院盤是52條然後林蔚琴委員是65條王玉敏委員是61條林淑美是61條好請行政機關做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5074.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5094.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
行政法草案第52條是規範托育相關的專業人員他每年應該要有相關的繼續的進修那這個部分的話同時也包含了一些跟嬰兒救命有關係的一些裡面有包含一些相關的課程那總體來說各委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5094.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5119.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
大體上來說都是支持要做這樣的進修那委員版本中間稍微有一些比較不一樣的部分是應該是陳培宇委員的林淑芬委員陳培宇委員林淑芬委員羅廷維委員的版本那這個裡面對於要去繼續上課的部分可能希望能夠再增加有關性別平等的課程那我們也參考了委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5120.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5145.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那我們建議在第一項的文字裡面可以甄列在第一項的文字最後面可以甄列每兩年所接受研習中應包括性別平等課程大概有這樣的一個建議的甄列那以上 請委員那我也有單張提供給委員那供委員參考 以上好 理業請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5149.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5167.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
似乎漏掉我的因為我覺得有一個很重要的東西就是說你們一直強調的都是事後事後當孩子發生事情之後再來做基本救命術我覺得事前才是很重要的所以幼照法他們也針對於每一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5168.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5188.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
要老師們去執行所謂的安全教育那所以如果反過來安全教育就是要處理事故傷害所以這邊我本來就是列的是因幼兒的事故傷害及處理三小時在幼兒園的話它事實上是幼兒的安全教育涵蓋到幼兒階段的事故傷害的一些防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5189.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5209.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我覺得預防在前不是只在做事後的補救所以過去一直在強調過去在二選法裡面你們那時候列我們就很希望你們是改那現在已經到兒托法的話更是需要尤其是比較托嬰中心也好保母也好收的都是比收托的都是比較年幼的孩子更需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5210.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5225.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這樣的否則這幾年我們的窒息死亡一直在往上上揚0到20歲的那這一塊是什麼如果說你不知道數據不知道樣態的話你根本無從防範所以我希望這部分要把它加進去以上來 請陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5228.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5252.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
再請林署委員剛剛兩位委員他們提到的是受訓的內容然後我覺得內容這個是因為很多領域都有被要求這個不管是事前有一個基本的那個學分或是繼續的這個學分我覺得這個內容是可以廣泛的討論也許用看什麼方式去表達不然這個正面表列確實會比較容易遺漏但是我們是支持這樣的精神但是實務上有個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5253.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5282.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
如果人員換工作就是他還是在托育機構服務那是不是每換一家他就因為這裡看出來沒有辦法看到這個細節重新上一樣的課程那當然這樣增加本人的負擔但我們訓練資源也是很珍貴的那微服部是不是可能考慮其實我們對醫療人員都是一種證書有效期間訓練內容是絕對可以討論的就是說他受訓的內容就是說到什麼時候為止那他必須再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5283.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5309.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
繼續再補強這個才能夠再繼續它的症狀才繼續是有效的就是石部長因為我們醫療人員都是用這個有效的時間到哪裡為止這樣的話就不會說再換機構換醫院等等就是說等等它就是失效的必須重來兩位剛好在討論有聽到我的觀點嗎那個戴署長您有聽到我的觀點嗎有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5315.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5335.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
來 再請林署委員這個招職委員的這個有效期限我們的版本其實就是在規範這一件事情就是說你可能轉換工作但是你可能一個月前或者是半年前才完成這個兩年一次的這個基本訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5336.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5360.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以我想我們的版本其實就規範說其實不必要在一個月前或兩個月前才完成了你要叫他再去上一次所以我們在講說你提供托育服務前兩年內有上過但是呢你提供服務後兩年之後的兩年還是要繼續再去讓那個證照有效還繼續去上課所以有這樣的一個銜接的概念第二個我們希望課程這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5363.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5379.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
教育因為救命術的教育跟實際的訓練課程可能還是會有一些落差那我們希望主管地方政府主管機關應該至少每次要辦理相關的訓練課程或者是演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5380.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5403.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這樣子因為有時候上課都一樣的內容然後但是你知道是一回事你會操作可能又是另外一件事那我們希望就是說你有這樣的安全的知能但是你也會操作所以有些訓練課程是不是應該比較實務面讓他們去練習這樣子我們的版本來 請王志祺委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5409.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5418.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
呼應一下剛剛兩位林委員還有趙氏委員的針對這條文的內容這些修正的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5419.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5446.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我個人是蠻贊成兩位林委員的文字主要原因是因為提供服務第二項裡面是有提到提供服務前兩年裡面這已經涵括過去他曾經有進行這個服務前或者是在服務的過程當中所應該有的這些服務的技能所以可以針對這部分可以取代剛剛趙師傅委員所提到他的這個時效的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5447.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5474.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那另外這的確是需要在提供服務前就要準備好的技能不是他進到職場以後在上個月裡面才開始有這樣的服務技能 否則的話他如果一碰到相關的問題還沒有接受好完整的服務技能的話這個對他照顧的嬰兒是非常高風險所以我會贊成這個相關文字需要做適當的調整以上好再請王育明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5477.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5493.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
有關於這一題我覺得是在實務現場對於孩子出現意外或狀況的時候相關的專業人員他的反應跟基本的這個訓練有沒有到位所以原本在我的版本裡面我是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5493.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5503.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
每一季都可以有這樣的一個演習就是現場的演習其實才是比較重要的另外一個我請主管機關去盤點就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5506.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5534.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
專業的托育人員他之前所上過的課程上課是一回事然後強化他的這個基本救命術的訓練又是另外一回事但到底欠缺哪個部分因為衛福部你是長管社福然後整個醫療也在這邊我們新上任的部長你自己又是醫療的專業我覺得這一塊的確是可以好好去統整就是那個課程的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5534.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5545.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
然後我覺得演習其實是蠻重要的那另外一個就是放到那個情境至少一個托育機構裡面會有持續在這邊的人跟新進的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5546.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5570.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以剛剛有委員提到說都應該要在進來之前每一個都要有這樣的一個能力我覺得如果實務上就是我們之前也有一題在討論這個就是說調查他所有的資料如果說這個機構有一半以上的這個人員他其實已經達到他也訓練過就你要想像一個機構不是說他重新設立所有人都是新手不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5571.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5596.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
他其實會有新進的人員會有原來的人員那如果原來的人員我們讓他養成就是每一季都有在演訓所以他待在現場的人員是有超過半數以上都具備這樣的能力那我個人就會覺得不見得嚴格規範到每一個新進來的他都已經完成訓練如果他原機構已經有達到一半以上的人員重點是現場因為急救的狀況不會每一班都發生急救 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5597.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5612.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有狀況的時候立刻有人一定要有人你確保一半以上具備這樣能力他其實可以處理所以我覺得當我們在立法的時候就是跟前一個討論的一樣就是怎麼樣在實務跟專業到位之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5612.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5635.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
要達到一個平衡就是我也很怕我們立了一個變成這個食物現場他們覺得他們做不到那這樣子也是不好就是食物又做得到又提升這整個的這個基本的到位的訓練跟品質我覺得在這一條討論的時候大家可以從這樣的一個角度就是去思考這樣子以上是我的意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5637.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5642.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好 謝謝來 請署長回應之後我們就處理謝謝各位委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5650.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5676.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
謝謝各位委員的提醒我們原來在提這個條文的時候我們的想法是說因為我們是假設一個托育人員他的所有所有的訓練他的訓練的紀錄一定是跟著人走的不管他換不換工作場域所以我們會比較在意的是說當他第一次進入職場的時候那他最少要在到職三個月內要去完成訓練那之後如果他一直有在做的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5677.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5693.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
他不管怎麼去換的時候那這個問題就會比較他的訓練紀錄會跟著他走事情會比較容易解決那不過這個也謝謝委員的提醒那如果要為了避免說這個工作人員他可能會最早拿到資格隔很久才進入職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5693.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5709.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
或者是從職場中斷隔很久才再回來這樣的狀況我覺得我們是可以在這邊參考各位委員的提案我們就是在服務前兩年內第二項的服務前兩年內我們把這個文字加進來我覺得我們是可以來處理的這個部分我們可以爭到委員的意見來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5710.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5734.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好那第二個就是這個有關提到緊急訓練的部分那現在我們在第二項的最後一段是因為他每兩年就要受過一次相關緊急的救護情境的演練的部分那跟王詠美王委員剛才有提到就是是每計一次這個次數上面會有一些落差這樣看看這樣次數是不是足夠那我們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5735.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5764.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
可以配合看人家網友的這邊是不是如果用一年一次這樣是不是足夠或者還需要再做一些調整那另外那個有關林月琴林委員所提到的在訓練內容的部分還有要包括嬰幼兒事故傷害及處理這樣的一個課程我想這個部分的話確實除了救命以外這個事故的處理我想應該有一定的重要性我們可以把這個文字再把它補回來這個部分我們可以配合來做處理 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5766.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5782.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我補充一下因為這個基本救命術我們一直都有在辦根據那個研究大概它的維持力大概在兩年所以它一定是要兩年辦一次兩年要上一次課 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5783.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5800.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那所以以两年内有完成的纳入条文我觉得是合理的所以把那个第二项的前面加一个提供托育服务前两年内那个是很OK那另外刚刚提到那个 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5802.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5821.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
这个林月琴委员要增加的这个婴幼儿的事故伤害及处理那个也都OK只是说这个委员有一些委员有提到说只是就是主管机关地方主管机关要每季办理相关的训练课程或演习 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5822.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5850.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
然后托育机构应该与协助这一块所以这指的并不是指每一个机构他每一季都要演习而是指这个地方主管机关要去办这个演习或训练机构是这个意思嘛如果是这个意思是可行的那至于这个机构前面那个第二项谈的是那个机构本身他自己每两年要办过一次紧急 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5851.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5867.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
救护的勤进演习这是不一样就机构本身他是每两年要办一次那下面那一项是指说地方主管机关每一次要去折一半就有办就好了不是所有的机构都要做是这个意思吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5867.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5889.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
對 沒錯 但我再補充一下為什麼我們要責成第三項的地方政府每一季要辦理相關的訓練課程或演習是因為在實務面其實從幼兒園那裡曾經發生的現象就是其實人家老師要去上課但是縣市政府開課開得不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5891.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5911.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以導致這個要上課的人找不到課程所以我們要責成地方政府你要吃不上飯 你也每一季都要上這就是為什麼要要求每一季因為地方政府真的有時候蠻帶多的這個在幼兒園老師要去上課的時候真的沒有課可以上真的是一大困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5911.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5936.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那另外呢岳勤委員講的這個事故傷害上去我也是建議在這個立法說明欄裡面要講說他剛剛講窒息死亡率越來越高層出不窮所以在這種事故傷害裡面我們立法說明欄是不是能夠放進去說這樣的事故傷害建議說中心必須要有睡眠安全的智能 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5938.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5952.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
要涵蓋這樣子因為如果窒息死亡率這麼高那所謂的睡眠安全的智能窒息死亡因為都主要是來自於兩個狀況主要一個就是趴睡一個是睡眠環境上的不安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5953.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5970.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那這個讓這個中心的人都知道說這樣子的風險是這麼高那你在事故傷害的自己死亡的比例又這麼大所以這個睡眠安全的智能這個課程一定要放進去要強化要強化所以這是放在立法說明欄裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5972.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5983.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
事故傷害要放在母法但是事故傷害的內容裡面要包含至少要有睡眠安全的智能舉例的話要放上去來強化加強這一個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5990.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6003.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
請部長可不可以剛剛這個沒有問題我們就加上去那只是說那個主管機關地方主管機關辦的頻率每季因為考慮到各縣市有大有小 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6004.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6027.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
有的机构没有那么多所以他每季都要办也有他的困难比如说离岛可是现在就是发生想上课人没有课可以上那是不是不要到每季用半年可以吗不然有的限制小你叫他每季都要办他确实会有困扰 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6029.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6051.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我剛剛 淑芬委員提的就是我們現在的幼托現場就是每次大家要來凌晨來搶課坦白講我覺得也造成我們現場的工作人員非常辛苦就是說我要凌晨去報名否則的話我就報不到因為如果法規明定的時候常常往往就會造成他們如果縣市政府不辦甚至有人花年跑到台北來上課 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6052.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6077.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
因為如果花蓮沒辦的話就必須那他就要往返搭車對 他可能就是來台北一天所以我覺得不要用計的話那要回來問是說可不可以用什麼樣的方法解決說按比例或怎麼樣如果他這個人數少那他符合這個量否則的話你要工作人員從金門從花蓮跑來台北上課我覺得對於工作人員第一個他有時間的問題還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6079.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6097.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
交通費的問題啦所以我覺得如果說今天布里維恩認為用記比較不合理的話或者說比較難有的人這樣比較少那有沒有一個好調整的那個語言那個文字語言這樣讓我們可以接受否則的話沒有解決現場的問題以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6099.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6119.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
來 請問玉敏委員那個部長我是來建議事實上現在包括兒科醫學會還有包括各大兒童醫院他們裡面其實都有蠻專業的這種兒科人員他們對於兒童的這個基本救命術的訓練他們是學有專精的那如果說有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6121.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6142.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
就是名額不足的問題我建議啦就是你可以去跟他們談談看因為對他們來講那個是他們的專業其實是非常容易就是幫大家上課是非常容易的事情但是你如果又透過縣市政府他又去辦一個什麼樣的課然後再來他就會覺得那個行政過程很繁瑣所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6143.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6164.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
Maybe如果有一些醫院有一些專科醫師他本身這個訓練就很夠就是到他醫院去也可以完成相關的這個急救訓練他現場就有場地就是可以有更彈性的模式而不是說一定要說我這個是什麼托育人員什麼什麼急救課因為你的核心是在這一個急救嘛那我覺得專業的醫療人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6166.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6189.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
他們其實就是很好的老師可以做非常好的訓練這個怎麼樣可以去你們在你們認可底下醫師你開放個別醫師他就他是非常專業的科醫師他就可以開張的課程就是願意去的三個四個我就教你啊就是你來上完這些課程就是有被認可 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6189.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6213.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個就是多增加一個彈性的機制那如果是這樣子因為是要解決那個量的問題就沒有拘泥在一定要是什麼劑或是什麼這樣子再放寬一點這樣子我就同意但另外一個我要講現場的演練我剛講的一個重點是在這個拖音機構現場的演練如果兩年才一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6213.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6229.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
以現在流動率有的人已經走了或者他來的過程當中他根本沒有感受到現場發生這個問題的時候怎麼樣去訓練所以我覺得那個頻率如果是兩年機構才演練一次的話太這個太寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6229.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6253.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
就是應該要在至少一年吧在該機構我們現在消防演練都那麼頻繁那這一種你都是照顧孩子的地方一年來一次我們就是來一次針對這個孩子萬一有狀況的時候我們應該要怎麼處理SOP讓大家都感受一下應該不會太頻繁吧以現在現場的這一些托育機構來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6254.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6282.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
他們沒有平常我如果自己是園長我自己都會插了蛋我每一年我都會自己主動要求大家來演練一下吧現在孩子都那麼寶貝出一個狀況都都是我的建議啦一定要到兩年嗎兩年我覺得有點久耶兩年你講的是說那個他學到這個專業兩年之內他不會忘記但是就機構本身去演習一下那樣的一個情境兩年一次會不會太久 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6286.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6307.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
來 再請陳昭志委員 完了之後再請救生單位來回應大家一直在擔心課程內容 還有課程是有聽課的內容跟這個所謂的那個技術訓練的部分 可能要就是要實作的部分所以這個第二 我是個人還是提醒說課程內容我們一直想一直加 用各種名字加進去 其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6308.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6328.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
正面表列永遠會有遺漏所以說基本上也許有一個general名詞原來類似事故傷害但是其實在說明欄裡面或是等等這個未來的那個細則都一定要再說清楚應該要包括哪些我認為這樣子會否則我們未來遇到什麼我們又會想這堂課也要加進去那第二個想法是說剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6333.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6360.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
大家擔心那個就是運民委員會等等就是多久的時間老實說當然連醫生本身但我們先不要醫生本是兩年一次當然也有高階的跟一般的那醫院裡面的行政人員其實他們毫無醫療基礎他們基本上也是要兩年一次那那個skill的部分大家擔心會不熟悉可是剛剛運民委員有提到因為人員的流動啊這個他們大概穩定性我們現在是沒有資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6360.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6385.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就是說現場就是他任何班別裡面應該有這樣的托育人員他是具有這個能力了因為大家不會集體需要做這個緊急急救所以是這種方法的是會更實務是更容易達到就有多少人百分之多別就一定要有人是非常熟悉的也許訓練期等等還在某個校這個校期內這樣子處理然後很不好意思我剛剛聽這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6387.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6392.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
他可能覺得那個托育人員都做了家長都不用上喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6393.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6419.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就是說他更多的時間是在家裡家長不用上 結果那個托育人員當然我們很希望好的托育人員但是現在變成說感謝家長也要補給堂課吧也要補給堂這個課但是那個補給堂課老實說我們在那個我們在學校家長去上這個課的時候絕對是要有薪假的就是你就是保護兒童不然家長在家裡不會然後交給老師的時候是 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6420.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6442.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
他才會就要回到家都完蛋了好不好意思他就說一邊講一邊感慨好謝謝好再請林淑媛委員剛才王育民委員講說這個緊急救護的勤進演習要責任機構要每年一次這個是應該是有道理的為什麼因為這個工作人員的流動率很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6443.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6461.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
很高那基本上在這種狀況裡面一年至少一次的演習應該是比較OK的沒有錯那我在這裡想要跟大家再討論分享就是說基本救命術基本上不是兒科醫師在訓練的是消防單位的EMT |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6463.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6490.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這樣子那跟兒科也有相關啦兒科有相關的是比較直接相關的像是這個睡眠安全事故傷害那兒科的急救不是現在的這個救命術這個範疇但兒科也有兒科的急救但是這只是觀念上的在在釐清而已那基本救命術對啦對啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6493.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6505.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
對啦但是現在就是說居托人員也應該要那家長要不要的話我是沒意見啦居托人員如果緊急救護的請進演習一次也是可以的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6509.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6532.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
來 要不要再請部長做同意答覆好不好 好然後台灣我們就處理好 剛剛提到幾個就是那個課程因為我們在授權法規裡面有提到到時候那個實施的一些項目包含你那個專業資能的研習的項目那個我們會另外訂因為它是兩 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6533.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6551.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
每年要18个小时嘛所以以两年来讲就是36个小时那我们现在各位委员所很关切的就是那个儿童基本救命数8个小时再加上事故伤害与预防3个小时就是11个小时所以其实还有25个小时 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6552.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6572.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他要去上那我们就会在那个授权法规里面去定这个课程纲要啦大概有哪一些课程列出来那其他的就去因为里面还有那个三个小时的可能还有性评课程嘛等等这些那个就是之后在授权法规里面去定那至于说 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6573.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6600.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
演习这件事情因为现在这个是第几项第二项第二项所指的是要求托役专业人员要去完成的事项所以他是说他两年要完成参与一次勤进演习但是要有人办就是这个的意思是说你可以去参加刚刚不是说地方政府要办所以他去参加别人的那个也是参加 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6601.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6627.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
另外一种刚刚委员可能关切的是说这个机构本身要办所以那个是另外一个状况这个是他去参加演习也可以不见得是他自己机构的所以他两年内有那我们没有折成机构说要办演习的所以等于那个是对机构的要求版本里面没有譬如说万一有紧急状况譬如说 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6628.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6644.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
跌宕啊跌宕啊怎麼去地震的時候他怎麼去對對對對類似像這種啦那種我們可能在另外對機構要求另外一項這個就不是對托育托育人員而是對那個機構我們再把 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6653.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6678.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那就是另外一个那就是托育机构每年要办理这样主体不一样我们都是比较清楚是另外一项会比较好看看大家对机构还有什么要求一起写这样那演习是他要办一年办一次就对了那个是另外一个跟现在谈的这个项不一样我觉得这个后边 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6678.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6708.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
至于说那个主管机关要办这个训练课程或者是演习这件事情那如果说我们就加几个就是他可以这个委托他也可以委托就是刚刚王玉明委员讲的他可能也跟学会去合作跟医学会或工会委托他们去办那就不用每次都他要自己办这样他可能有他的困难度执行上会有困难 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6715.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6734.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我覺得不像剛剛回答的我覺得可不可以後面再找到有沒有適合的去放那個31條我覺得不是只有機構因為居托人員常常每次應對緊急狀況都不急譬如孩子突然什麼狀況的時候在家裡甚至他怎麼去逃生過去不是沒有發生過保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6736.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6751.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
家裡火災的狀況所以我認為是說要不要事實上看後邊在哪一條去診病事實上包含包含保母包含我們的機構那當然我覺得那個事實上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6752.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6780.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
要讓他你或者你在評鑑裡面去要求他怎麼去做這種回應否則的話會變成說我們現在好像機構管得很多可是保姆的話事實上在居家的話他的條件更弱他一個人帶四個小孩那他如果一旦發生事情的時候怎麼去那我覺得也可以透過一些演練那可以去做要求所以我覺得到後邊再做討論不要 那現在這個純然講嚴習就把嚴習定好然後那個另外再責任另外一條來做討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6782.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6810.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那個跟委員報告因為31條之前已經通過啦那那個是對托育機構的要求啦那如果是這樣的話就可能要請主席才是就是待會再回頭的時候再把那個31條的托育機構應辦理事項再加一個每年辦理一次緊急情況之演習這樣OK 好那這點我們就先行保留你們先去點那個條文好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6816.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6816.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好 休息十分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6886.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6887.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7493.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7517.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
好 各位請就座 我們繼續開會剛剛處理是到第52條我們現在進行第53條 院版是53條然後林月請委員是16條 29條其他委員都是53條 那不一樣的有王玉敏委員的39條 條次還有林淑穩委員是第62條然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7521.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7549.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
陳慶輝委員是56條好 梁委員歡迎 請先說明發言喔是 請說有兩個問題第一個問題就是我不知道我們怎麼確保就是第二項的部分我們怎麼確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7550.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7574.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
對不起 楊委員你不知道是現在要處理52條還是53條53條不是嗎53條剛剛52條是要再宣告一下是保留啦然後你現在是要確定確定53條你是不是不是啦是不是交易有沒有罷免的辦法啦你針對53條歡迎好不好這個明顯就不適任啦好 謝謝謝謝沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7580.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7603.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
你在這邊也已經時候不久了 請多多歡迎 謝謝沒有 我就是53條的第二項就是我們刻意居家托育人員跟托育機構發現托育兒童有疑似發展遲緩的情形應該要通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7604.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7623.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
就這個就是一個義務可是我不知道怎麼確認或確保托育人員跟托育機關有這個能力是大概就這個問題請教一下好 請署長針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7625.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7636.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
楊教委員的不知道 回應一下53條主要是針對居家托育員和托育機構的一些公共衛生以及藻寮的一些協助主管機關的規範那楊委員所關心的53條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7642.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7664.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
有關這個相關的人員是不是具有這一類的知能其實這個相關的條文其實目前在兒少法裡面對於一些兒少照顧的人員已經對於這個相關從業人員有一些規範那因為托育的訂定的關係有拉出來那在這邊的時候他的居家托育人員跟托育機構他其實在人員訓練養成訓練裡面那對於嬰幼兒的發展的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7669.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7697.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
其實是有納入他的培訓課程裡面所以他會具有一些相關的基本的知能所以這個部分在他後續在開始他從事相關工作的時候有這樣子的發現有這樣的個案的話我們就可以與他的醫務員來協助地方政府來做個通報那現在規定在兒少法裡面嗎兒少法現在對於這個因為他是範圍現行的規定他是更廣的那通報的數量多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7698.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7714.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
目前現在通報如果以所有各場域來通報給我們藻寮的案件量來看的話主要的通報單位大概一個是在醫療機構那第二個大概是在教育體系最主要是這兩類 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7715.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7734.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那居家托育机构的部分也有但是因为医疗多数都是家长有可能是通知了家长家长带去看我的意思是发展有没有迟缓其实是很专业的东西那怎么确保托育人员跟托育机构有这样子的专业 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7736.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7749.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
這個現在在這個嬰幼兒的教養裡面大概都有一些給這些從業人員這個檢疫的發展篩檢的工具所以兒童在發展的時候不管是語音 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7750.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7766.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
认知或者是生长曲线等等都会有一些简易的筛检工具所以这一类的人员在发现的时候通常多数他有的一般直接通报到主管机关有时候不一定这样做但是他大多数都会跟家长提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7767.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7789.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那比较所以我们现在实务上看到多数都是家长带到医疗机构就医然后最后由医疗机构再来通报所以现在通报比较多大概是从医疗机构通报进来但是我们也保留这个管道相类似的法条其实在儿少法已经有规范那事实上就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7791.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7815.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
托育人員跟機構會跟家長提建議是因為他自認專業度不足這個確實兒童有沒有發展遲緩是一個還蠻專業的判斷那現在刻意他應該要通報主管機關我的意思是說會不會以後在執行的時候有什麼困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7816.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7839.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
这个确实是最后是不是确认或者确诊有这样早疗的需求或者是发展迟缓这个当然需要专业判断我现在是说我现在是说对连这个其实都会有很大的困难因为他们不知道什么情况应该要通报 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7841.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7869.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這個部分所以在教育訓練的過程裡面大概都有一些訓練那另外的話就在工作期間的時候現在我們不管是地方政府或者醫療體系都有提供這一類專業人員一些簡易的篩檢工具那例如說講話的時候例如說幾歲大概可以講到什麼程度幾個字的單字這一類例如說像語言的發展大概都有一些簡易的篩檢工具協助這些人來做發現很明顯的部分他們才有辦法做大概這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7875.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7903.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
林委員完再請陳委員好不好先連署一下罷免好 謝謝我覺得楊耀委員他比較有需要提出疑問應該是比較正常的因為宜柯林本身不要說過他娘真的真的老實說因為照顧小孩的這個經驗真的有這個經驗其實是會比較了解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7904.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7921.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
第一項主要是考慮到居家托育人員和托育機構跟兒童接觸的時間比較長你知道就是說畢竟保母照護的時間大概會跟家長是都比較長的甚至有些人照顧的是比家長的時間還要長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7923.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7944.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那在這種狀況裡面根據我們每個月都要帶小孩帶到醫療機構去做的檢查他們會有一些觀察的話醫療機構最先發現可能是正常的但是就是保姆我們希望第一項讓他們可以這個去發現然後協助觀察然後通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7945.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7963.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但是我們是希望說有疑似的狀況的時候第二項在通報完以後希望居家托育人員應該要複資這個居托中心那為什麼希望他複資居托中心是我們希望未來要進行的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7964.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7991.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
居托中心能够进入去协助那也就是我们的第三项就是说居托中心如果他可以去协助一些早疗的活动或者是他去访试保姆的时候可以提醒这一些保姆在协助这一些家长或者是保姆比如说早疗有一些要求那希望多做一点什么或者是说保姆在照顾的时候可以落实一点什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7992.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8011.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
比如说需要多一点认知的刺激那我们的居多中心的访员可以跟保姆一起讨论希望那保姆可以多做一点什么比如说一起读绘本或者是语言上的训练那其实居多中心的访试跟保姆的沟通 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8012.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8041.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
除了叮嚀也是一種也是類似一種管理啦那其實對於這個發展遲緩的孩子也是多一層保障所以我們的版本跟這個行政院版其實就是多了一個居托中心的角色進來那也讓居托中心的訪員可以跟保姆主要的照顧者都可以有一點多針對早療提出來計畫可以多一點這個溝通和提醒這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8043.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8062.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
然後請陳清惠委員我是想請教社政的主管因為這個有一個治療的黃金旗那關於你們說的通報的流程跟時程因為沒有寫得很清楚所以我不曉得怎麼樣可以確保通報的即時性以免錯過了這個黃金旗 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8064.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8085.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
然後當然我覺得通報很好那之後我們要怎麼去追蹤追蹤他的進度就是說也許他需要在定期回診然後我們怎麼去追蹤後續因為通報是第一步可是對我就兩個問題來一個是即時性另外一個是追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8088.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8113.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
跟委員說明現在我們在早療的整個服務的體系是從前端的通報到中段的鑑定這是早療的中心去做實際的鑑定到後端的療癒服務那在早期的通報的部分的話基本上是跟所有的通報體系一樣我們都鼓勵廣通報更多的單位所以家長 學校 托育人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8114.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8135.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
甚至医疗机构医疗机构目前是通报量最大的主要大概都是大家也许是打疫苗也许是保姆或者是发现他会鼓励家长带去看大概都是透过这样的方式然后进入所以他只要一通报以后我们现在的服务体系是他有一个通报就有进入一个个管的动作了 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8135.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8155.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那会辅导这个家长就会开始去追人提醒他要去做后端的这个鉴定跟后端的那个找疗去做确诊的动作那在确诊完之后确定他是找疗个案那这一段部里面主要是由我们的国民健康署来做这个鉴定的相关鉴定的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8156.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8171.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
最近这两年我们也扩大了非常大比较扩张能够去做鉴定的单位鉴定完之后后端的疗愈由医疗机构提供相关的疗愈课程目前绝大多数基本上健保都有相关的支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8172.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8198.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個是目前早聊的狀況是跟委員做說明那另外剛才林淑芬委員所提示的部分有關這個在第53條的第二項是不是要複製到居家托育服務中心的部分那這個如果是這個當事托育人員已經這邊會有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8200.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8223.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
可能会有一个现在在条文结构上面有一个比较需要处理的地方是因为居家托育服务中心它主要的这个后面在协助地方政府去monitor的是居家托育人员那这边的话我们这一条这边因为53条的第二项它同时会有托育机构 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8224.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8249.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那這個部分的話文字的話如果要還是要通知到居家托育服務中心的話我們會建議文字可能是不是就是搭配著就限縮在有關是居家托育人員有通報到地方政府的時候那這樣的訊息我們把它轉給能夠轉給居家托育服務中心那這樣的服務體系就比較一致這個是我們的一個建議以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8253.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8276.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
來 那個文字有要直接在那個電腦上改嗎我們建議文字是不是可以在第二項的後面第二項整個結束以後那這個現在通報直轄市縣市主管機關然後用分號 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8280.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8301.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
然後由居家托育人員通報者然後就並因然後逗點並因複資居家托育服務中心據點就限定條件就通報人只限定在由那個居家托育人員通報的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8302.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8314.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
因為這樣後面的服務這個居家托育中心要去服務跟去這個協助的這個就比較一元我們做這樣的建議 以上來 再請林玉琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8316.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8332.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
因為以前放在兒少全法53條我忘了哪一條它本來事實上是要求的事實上是機構所以那樣的狀況就會變成是說以前居家托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8334.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8348.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
居家托育服務中心跟我們的托嬰中心事實上是要通報的可是這次這樣子改的話會變成說居家托育服務中心事實上是就脫鉤了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8350.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8367.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
原本我自己在寫的是因為是過去沒有規範到的我把它規範進來就是居家托育服務人員可是現在把居家托育服務人員及托育機構發現收托的兒童有疑似發展遲緩的情形要通報可是居家托育服務中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8368.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8394.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
的人事實上是就不需要去做通報反而他是一個等待的角色可是如果保姆如果居家托育服務人員他沒有這樣的一個覺察那如果今天居家托育服務中心的人去訪視的時候是不是也變成說他沒有責任他事實上是要去責成責成居家托育服務人員去通報嗎所以想針對這個想問一下社家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8398.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8426.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
來所以跟委員那意思就是說你前這一項前段的通報人員就是還要包含居家托育服務中心人員對不對意思是這樣因為以前真的是只有要求機構機構就會變成居家托育服務中心跟托育機構一定要通報現在這次是變成是可是過去一直以來也會有個問題就居家托育人員他明明發現那他就是他不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8427.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8445.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
可是現在就是說如果居家托育人員如果他也沒有覺知今天我去訪視的時候我去發現這樣問題的話所以我才會說你們的我的第四項有說前項的通報流程跟一些處理的事項應該要訂定辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8446.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8470.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
可是你們現在會變成是說直接就把它能寫的都寫上去了那你能寫的寫上去那我大家就要問說那過去過去的法規是責成居家托育服務中心有這個責任現在會變成這樣子的寫法就是這個中心是沒有責任要去做這件事情那跟過去的法有點不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8472.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8490.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
過去的兒少全法定的跟你現在這個不太一樣現在因為把兒少全法有關托育的都拉過來這邊嘛所以原來的兒少全法的要職那現在你在這邊好像又認為居家托育服務中心的工作人員不需要做這個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8495.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8512.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
这个我们的版本是讲说居托人员要复支这个居托中心我们本来是这样讲那第一项就是我们讲这个是说第一项谁要负责通报居托人员一个是保姆一个是机构 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8513.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8540.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
兩個喔保姆或是機構那你都應該要去通報然後我們的版本是說在這種狀況裡面你的居托中心的居托人員要複製居托中心其實就前兩項都有通報但是前兩項要居托人員負責再通報到居托中心你這個講法是機構就不用通報了 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8542.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8567.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
不是不用通報 機構就不用通知居托中心了你的這一句話是不是 其實你由居托人員通報者那一句話拿掉就好了因為這一項就是講保姆和機構而已我們就限縮在這裡 本來就限縮在這裡沒有擴大到醫療單位或是沒有擴大到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8569.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8589.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他就限託在保母和機構那保母和機構如果去通報的話複製通知居托中心我剛剛有講了其實希望這些訪員到訪視的時候可以訪視一下保母或是機構有沒有依照藻療專業的醫師的建議要強化語言或是認知功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8597.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8615.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那他帶小孩的時候有沒有這樣的一個強化的訓練沒有的話訪員是不是可以協助他們多做一點什麼這樣子其實我們是希望居托中心的訪員在訪視保姆的時候其實可以給一點更多的意見這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8618.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8645.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
你們這裡是要限制在居托人員通報那機構是不要是不是不是啦第二項是這樣托育人員托育機構都要通報但你的紅色那句話是說只有托育人員通報的才需要通知所以你的托育機構是不要是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8646.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8667.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
因为现在居家托育服务中心不会托育机构啊对对对 没错啦当然没错 我看错了对没错 这样不会啊OK那是不是针对我刚刚讲的可以做回应因为为什么因为过去儿少权法第32条就各类社会福利教育跟医疗机构发现有疑似发展痴患儿童的要通报 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8667.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8682.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以變成是我覺得現在你這一條跟過去的法的競合關係也就是說當初我們不希望把它拉出來可是現在你會變成說這樣子的話居家托育服務中心這個責任好像是要把它拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8687.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8713.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
現行的兒少法32條它的通報責任的對象包括了各類社會福利教育及醫療機構那它都有通報的責任對 它是機構啊所以以前才會居家托育服務中心被責成要通報可是以前我們一直看到一個問題是居家托育服務人員反而不用那這次要加居家托育人員我覺得很好可是你又漏掉了一個居托中心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8714.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8737.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
不会啊因为社会福利机构教育及医疗机构那如果是用社会福利机构回应到现行的这个不管是儿少法生权法或者老古法居托中心并不是机构喔它是一个服务项目现行并不是定义的机构 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8739.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8762.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
他實務上是有要求居托中心來幫忙做通報是有的但是他並沒有那我先問你就是說你未來居托中心的人的角色是什麼是放在兒少權法第32條來規範還是沒有了就是居托中心的工作人員到底要不要通報沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8764.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8783.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
以後都不用通報了可是現在32條當然還是有可是如果說你現在現在32條的社會福利機構以現行的社會福利法規如果去規定的它的機構型態裡面其實並沒有包括居託中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8783.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8810.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那是實務上我們現在行政實務的運作我們都有要求居托中心在發現的時候一併來做通報的動作實務上是有但是法律上的定義現在看起來其實並不當然就會把這個定義包括並不當然就把居托中心納進去不過以前我們請政府解釋的時候就跟我們講說是32條我們沒有南瓜居托中心的工作人員那好 那現在也要問那如果回到兒少 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8811.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8838.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那個托法裡邊那現在是居托中心的工作人員是不需要嗎先問這一個如果依照現在的53條我們這樣子修完他確實是不需要他會居於一個協助等到被通報完的案件協助這樣居家托育人員來實施督促協助或者輔導居家托育人員提醒他去實施找療 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8839.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8857.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以未來就是如果我去訪視的時候發現我要去責成保姆要去通報那如果未來如果保姆沒有通就是說沒有發現你本來不是一個監督管理者事實上是要去可能會不會我不知道後邊搭配的有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8858.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8877.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
所以他有些懲罰 沒有的話那就變成說那你在什麼樣的狀況底下會去針對拘托中心的工作人員要求說他要責成他有這樣子的一個做法你現在法律沒有明定嘛你剛剛講的都是說我要請他做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8879.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8902.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以現在這個地方政府也許是在委託這個請居託中心在服務的是不是在裡面個別的縣市政府有包括這個部分請他們一併來做相關的動作那其實不論現在是兒少法的32條或者是我們現在草案的53條對於這個通報的部分它是一個基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8904.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8933.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
雖然定有所謂的通報義務但是如果他沒有特別去額外的通報其實目前現行兒少法後的實際上是沒有罰則的它不像兒少法的53條對於兒童有一些不當的行為它是有罰則現在這個在藻寮通報的部分目前是沒有罰則所以即便這個我們兒托法53條雖然沒有把居家托育人員對不起 居家托育中心的人員納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8934.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8962.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
地方政府請居托中心協助基於行政的主動跟居托中心有協議他還是可以透過溝通請他來幫忙做通報這個部分雖然沒有法律的規定還是可以請居托中心來做相關的協助不管是怎麼樣用居托法或者是未來的兒少法這個就是請大家多幫忙來只要發現找了盡量來及早去把個案發掘出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8969.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8982.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
現在我們加這一句由居托人員通報者應通知居家托育服務中心那誰要去通報誰有通報義務通知啦通知啦誰要負責去通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8984.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9005.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個在一般條文解讀上面它會跟著這一項最前面就是居家托育人員那如果說我們改成這樣子好了就是說居家托育人員於通報時並應通知居家托育服務中心這樣會不會語意更清楚一樣但是就是這樣子更清楚會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9007.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9026.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們是要釐清第二項的這個後段是誰要通知居托中心我看得出來你應該是想要那樣設計但是我們是想說如果居家托育人員於通報時並應通知居托中心這樣子會不會更明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9031.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9053.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
他在通報的時候就應通知居托中心於通報時我可不可以請教一下就是說如果是剛剛這個不是指是則是時剛剛署長講的就是說在你們現行的定義居托中心沒有通報的義務那居托人員他通報給居托中心要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9057.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9076.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我講的 我剛才講了因為居住中心要去訪視保姆因為早療會訂一些專業的醫生會建議一些加強的訓練生活上訓練的訪員要去看保姆有沒有落實這些意見或是教導他一些技巧 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9078.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9101.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我的意思就是說如果剛剛主管機關把居托中心的那個角色他連通報的義務都沒有的時候那這樣子的一個條文就比較是宣示性的就是應該是居托中心在找了這件事情上他是要有角色有督導有任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9103.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9132.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
連通報的責任他都應該有你這樣子的寫他就會更有意義你懂我意思嗎但是在剛剛的解釋裡面他連義務通報人都不是居托中心是連責任通報人都不是無論是從兒少全法或者是我們現在新修訂的專法他們的認知是都不是都不是的時候寫這個我就看不出來這個居托中心他扮演的一個很更積極的角色啊所以我是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9133.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9147.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
事實上如果按照你們剛剛的說法早聊我們就是更早發現更好嗎所以更多人通報更好嗎你說這個也沒有法則所以我認為居托中心的工作人員當然要有通報的義務啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9149.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9174.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
他當然要有因為他就是那麼息息相關剛剛淑芬委員還希望定這個就是他要去督導他有沒有去做相關的措施那他責任我覺得那當然他要納進來所以看是不是可以怎麼寫剛剛月前委員一直在提說那為什麼居托中心反而之前比較擴大解釋的時候認為他有通報責任但是這樣寫完之後好像他變成沒有所以我就要解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9175.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9189.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
育民委員就是說其實我們在設計這一條它不是為了居托中心有通報義務而是為了協助照顧上的落實通報的義務跟後續的協助照顧是兩件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9191.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9213.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
但你說我們本來是想說居多中心的訪員其實是要去協助保母後續的照顧但如果你認為說他也可以要一起來扛起這個通報的義務我個人是這樣想因為他不是長期跟孩子在一起的人他沒有辦法長時間觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9215.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9241.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那他去訪視其實要看保姆的照顧有沒有落實他的專業性這樣子那因為沒有長期在一起那也不具備醫療人員的那種專業所以你要說他要有通報的義務與否我覺得是可以討論啦但是我們的版本托蒙的版本的重點其實是把通報義務跟後續協助他的照顧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9243.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9249.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
當成兩件事情那我們只是要強化居托中心在協助照顧上可以落實這樣子來 請你委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9256.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9278.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
剛剛釋迦署這樣解釋後 我原來我覺得讓我很驚嚇原來這麼多年 從100年走到現在原來我們的保母不需要通報 拘托中心的人不需要通報到底在保母家 孩子發現發展遲緩的沒有啊 你沒有任何的一個條規去講那當然你現在要去改這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9280.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9302.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那你這個 我認為如果你就是說後邊我再來跟他溝通或者是請地方政府再做一些邀地方政府再做 再跟他溝通說那你居托中心都做一個這樣的工作如果法定項目因為如果講說早期療癒事實上前面三歲前黃金時期 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9303.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9331.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
要更早發現然後呢更早能夠去接受藻撩那是不是大家一起來那可是不是用溝通的方式如果沒有明定的話那反過來是說如果居托中心我去訪視的時候我明明感覺這孩子事實上是非常明顯的我去看到他事實上是有些狀況那我就是要強制今天居托中心也就是保姆能夠真的去做通報是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9332.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9346.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
未來的 我不知道因為你們也沒有這邊講也沒有講到一些流程如果我真的是居托中心的人我去保母家發現說孩子真的有這狀況我就是要強制執行請保母一定要趕快去做這些事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9352.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9367.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
跟委員報告現行的兒校法第32條它雖然是只規定通報義務人士限於在機構但是32條它有授權訂定一個通報的辦法在現行的通報辦法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9368.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9395.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
第二條有明文的規定居托的人員是要準用通報的規定所以居家托育人員現在是有通報義務的因為有法規命令授權準用的關係那在這一次托育服務法草案裡面所以我們也在這次把它正式的條文化在條文裡面讓它在法律層級的條文讓它有一個通報比較明確的條文義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9396.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9420.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
但是在居托服務中心的部分目前確實是相對來說不管是在條文或者在兒少法條文或者是在通報辦法裡面目前相對來說比較沒有那麼明確的定位而且因為居托中心現在在他原來在工作的角色上他其實是比較有一點是主管機關的工作的延伸 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9420.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9449.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那這個從屬性來看的時候那他比較適合變成是這個變成是協助受理通報或者當他知道有需要通報案件的時候這個去要求或者去督促保姆趕快來做通報可能這樣以這個現在居托中心原來他的定位跟角色來說說其實跟他現有的定位會比較符合也比較一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9450.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9466.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那也因為這樣所以在這邊我們會建議是說如果居托中心有需要納到這個整個通報的架構裡面來的時候我們會建議是不是有可能就是我們如果在第二項裡面加上這樣的文字看看是不是有可行性那以上那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9472.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9499.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
原來我的版本就寫說那個前項也符合當初全法寫的就前項的如果你要這樣子的話是不是應該是說你像現在你也是在這個辦法裡面去授權然後要求說保姆要通報那是不是可以加這個前項通報流程及檔案管理等相關事項的辦法由中央主管機關定制為什麼因為我看我們很多委員的版本也有列這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9499.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9519.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以我也不知道你們那時候考量為什麼這一個項沒有列進去跟委員報告我們有確實原來有評估過因為拉出來是不是單獨要訂通報辦法那因為考慮到說這個因為在托育服務法這邊等他的通報對象跟規範主要是針對在托育場域的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9520.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9540.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那這個藻寮不見得是一定說是在有送到托育體系來所以我們當時在檢討之後我們的想法是說未來整個通報要處理的流程會留在那個授權的部分會留在那個還是用兒少法的那個授權但是那個辦法我們會配合修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9541.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9564.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那把那個辦法裡面跟未來跟托育服務法裡面有需要處理的部分我們會統一修到而造法授權的那個辦法裡面來所以我們最後檢討在這邊就不用沒有要再新額外再去增加一個通報辦法避免這個藻寮的部分有兩個通報辦法其實在外面在外界通常適用的時候會變得比較複雜這個是我們當初的一個想法以上好 那各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9576.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9576.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9597.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9624.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
是 所以剛剛第53條就是到底這個托育服務中心本身的角色他是要當作服務者或者是要當作同時也是一個要去通報的角色這個可能我們要先定義清楚當然他可以兩者都有可是如果是兩者都有的話就會變成他在執行上會有某一些的困境之所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9625.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9647.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
當他變成是需要通報的話呢他到底有多少機會會在服務的過程裡面會去找到沒有被通報的這些人然後同時去要求進行通報因為他是本身並不是直接去服務這個受託的嬰兒或者是他的對象所以他其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9648.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9667.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
相對比較難有直接去發現需要通報的對象還沒有被通報因為如果從剛剛淑芬委員所提到的她其實是一個輔助者她是服務這些托育人員在協助指導過程裡面她可能有更多需要協助的部分這個有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9669.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9695.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
服務托育中心的同仁一起來協助他做更完整的服務所以如果把這個想法帶進來的話事實上他可以不需要有這個通報的義務或者是通報的這個服務項目可是呢這個我希望在立法說明裡面把剛剛蘇文委員所提到為什麼要付諸到這個托育中心裡面他的這個角色的需求放在立法說明裡面讓他可以更完備以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9696.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9725.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
好 接下来请林书委员抱歉 因为跟一些食物面比较有经验的人来讲沟通了一下他们会觉得真的有那种保姆因为通报也是一种行政处理的程序他们说真的有那种保姆是真的在行政处理程序上是真的能力上比较不足的如果遇到那种状况的话事实上居多中心是可以协助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9725.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9748.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那在這種狀況的話也讓居多中心可以進來納入到通報的責任的話其實也可以啦其實是這樣子否則他絕對不是第一線帶小孩然後第一線觀察的但是他看到保姆這樣而保姆可能帶多或者是能力有限然後他保姆沒有親自去做那他 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9749.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9770.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
他發現了那他也可以去通報這樣子也是比較明確的免得到時候要通報說法律又沒有說你有資格通報那這樣子我想我們怕有這種狀況地方政府會這樣質疑你沒有通報的權利和義務是義務啦但也是權利那他解讀成 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9772.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9791.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
權利的話然後還叫去托中心的人說你趕快去叫你的保姆來通報可是保姆可能就如果在那邊推拖拉的話反而讓這個小孩沒有辦法進入及早的這個找療過程所以那進來也好那是不是我們就在 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9792.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9812.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
頭的地方居家托育人員頓點居家托育服務居家托育服務中心人員他還是人員才會發現及工作人員及這個就是通報者可以囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9817.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9831.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
好 那請陳經理委員我只是想建議說你要不要加一個通報後並定期追蹤就是中興去做定期追蹤後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9833.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9853.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
跟委員報告因為現在追蹤的部分那個在在藻寮體系裡面的藻寮在通報進來的那個通報的受理的個管中心跟他鑑定完的那個中心他都會有個管的追蹤現在已經有追蹤體系因為剛剛淑芬委員有說中心不是都會出去訪視他訪視的時候也算是一種追蹤嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9855.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9880.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
然後他中心會去追蹤說這個居家托育人員有沒有依照這個給予的建議去執行這樣子知道我意思嗎好 那文字我們就照這樣是不是 各位我知道了 請問這一個條文53條條文的文字這樣修正各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9882.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9906.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那個陳委員的那個部分的意見因為我們那個後面通報以後的那個處遇的部分我們會併在兒少法的那個整個藻寮的通報處理裡面我們在那邊我們把它拿進去研修那這個委員的意見我們看是不是要放在說明欄裡面或者是最後有個主決議我們那個東西我們記得一起來處理這沒有問題可以嗎可以齁 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9916.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9939.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
好 那53條我們就依照行政院提案 齊玲淑敏的提案文字座修正後通過好 繼續處理第原本我們第三項也是要照 抱歉是第幾項好好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9942.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9970.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
整個條文我們的版本有第三項跟行政院不一樣的我們後面又加了一句會同居家托育人員托育機構或居托中心協助我們是把這三方的角色拉進來協助需要需要協助的這些遲緩兒童的家庭這樣子這個也要照我們的通過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9974.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10001.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
沒有啊我們的這一項沒有處理啊第三項啊我們的62條裡面有就是地方政府要幫這些吃完兒童建立檔案而且是這些兒童的需要提供或轉介適當的服務那你在轉介或適當的服務的時候我們讓他們可以會同保姆機構或者是居托中心一起來協助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10004.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10032.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這樣子的話這個就是我剛剛講的是說居多中心或是保姆那可以提供適當的協助比如說像醫專業人員的建議提供適當的照顧增加多增加一個條件給你們法律讓他更明確你可以啟動也可以不啟動但是就是說放進來多一個選項沒差放進來好了OK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10039.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10067.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
來 各位再看一下最後一項的文字有沒有其他意見好 這最後一項的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10093.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10107.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
第三項我們甄列出來的文字是不是要跟第一項的順序一樣就變成托育人員居家托育服務中心然後跟托育機構順序就把它一致有 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10130.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10158.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好各位看一下好不好這是最後一項往前再往上拉一下各位再看整個跳有沒有其他問題上面再拉一下快點等一下後面又跑出來很恐怖 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10161.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10172.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
來 各位看一下有沒有問題可以了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10173.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10197.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
可以了好謝謝那就剛剛照這樣宣讀來通過好謝謝我們繼續處理院版第54條其他委員都是 多數都是54條條次是這樣然後林月琴委員是17主席我們在院版54條之前跟這一個53條相關的還有一個我的版本的63條要不要先處理因為這跟53條相關連下來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10203.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10213.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
哪裡你們有嗎沒有啊就是拘托人員在托育服務時間內要專心托育行政院版有嗎我們的63條喔 你們放在56條後面OK好 那到時候再來討論好了OK好委員版的條次也是在第63 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10234.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10262.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
委員版條是在六十三條嘛 你們變到你們的五十六是不是好 當放到五十六之後 好吧 OK那我們先處理五十四條啦 多數委員都是五十四條那對於議事組幫大家整理出來是林耀請委員是原有的條次十七三十嘛王毓民委員是四十然後林淑穩是六十四然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10266.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10271.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個陳慶威委員是57的條次好我們就這樣來討論好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10274.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10297.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
行政單位先說明行政版條文第54條主要是規範推相關人員對於這些實際照顧人員要去做有一個保密的義務那除了一定的符合一定條件之外那他必須要做這個一個保密那各委員的版本大體上幾乎內容都非常的相近除了文字上稍微一點點不太有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10298.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10324.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
很小幅度的一些調整之外 基本上內容都一致那我們建議是不是可以依照行政院版本的文字通過 以上來 行政長已經表示意見 各位有沒有其他意見好 沒有 那我們就依照行政院的版本來通過 好不好 好 謝謝繼續審查院版第55條 集計大委員多數都是55條的條次 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10328.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10354.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
對不起我們繼續先出林淑芬委員的第65條來 行政代表表示意見林淑芬委員版本的第65條有規範到托育相關人員不可以去推銷宣傳廣告或其他方式要求這個房地產人或去購買收費項目或金額以外的教材 教具或其他物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10355.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10383.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那這個部分的話在行政院版原來在14條跟第27條裡面原來有一些相關的規範主要是規範說托育機構跟居家托育人員都不可以去收取合訂費用以外的合訂的項目跟金額以外其他的費用而且已經有相關的罰則那另外在配套的部分現在在這個不管是這個收托的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10384.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10407.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
收託契約的範例或者是定型化契約裡面大概都已經有相關的條文我們建議是不是可以併在那邊我們這邊就不要增訂 以上好 聽話員沒有意見 那就不以增訂了不以採納 不以列入 謝謝那接下來我們處理院版第55條其實多數都是55條 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10410.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10411.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
行政院版條文第55條那針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10433.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10461.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
法令代理人或慈濟照顧職人跟托育的服務的單位中間如果有認為有違法不當或損害到人權益的話是可以來跟居家托育服務中心來申請做一個調處的動作那如果在調處的結果如果還有爭議的話可以跟地方政府來做懲刑做相關的懲刑然後這個部分地方政府如果有接到的時候要在一定的期間內來做相關的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10462.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10490.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
以及調查以及處理那處理的結果也要通知給當事人那各委員的版本之間稍微都會有對於這樣的一個爭議事件的處理的部分機制設計上大體上都會有一個這樣的機制但是文字上面使用的有用申訴也有委員是用這個要求提供意見要說明或者用協議等等的不同的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10493.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10517.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
但是流程上大體上都還算相近那主要的不同在於林淑芬委員版本的條文是要求這對於屈家通譽人員要說明而且要這個部分跟行政院版本是比較大體上是有一個結構上面的相近的地方那另外在吳佩奕委員的部分有要甄列 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10519.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10538.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
替代性照顧的文字那這個部分的話因為跟托育的部分關聯性比較低我們建議不予增列 以上好來 請到委員有沒有要表示意見各位委員來 請陳欣惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10540.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10562.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
院版的條文裡面是寫到說像如果不服居家托育中心的條處結果像主管機關反應的行為定調為陳情可是陳情是一般性的名義表達或者是建議那用陳情會不會實質上就規避掉了主管機關應該要負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10564.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10577.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
調查義務還有法律責任因為陳情的處理結果是不具備正式的法律效力這樣家長的權益就很難受到保障這兩個字要不要再用比較精準一點來請回應署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10589.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10616.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
跟委員報告我們這邊其實我們對我們來講我們會比較在意的是說他實質怎麼樣去處理他的內容那這個因為我們在條文的第三項裡面也有相關的規範是說當這個縣市政府對於如果任何一方如果對於先前調處的結果有意見的話那他是可以就直接再去做派員的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10617.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10635.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那這個重點在實質的部分已經有要求縣市政府做後續的相關的動作所以實際上倒不至於說因為用澄清這兩個字可能會造成這個說這個好像處理的程度或者層次會降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10635.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10656.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那當然如果是考慮到一般我們大多數人對於陳情這樣的文字會不會有這樣的視覺上的一個感覺覺得不太合適我們覺得我們是可以再做一些斟酌也許是用申訴或者是用申訴或者說再次調處再次的調處我想我們都可以來配合來做處理 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10657.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10679.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
部長覺得要不要這個要不要請那個法治單位來給一點意見申訴好像是在那個比較好的一個字眼比陳情還要好但就是說在法治上有沒有就因為它是一個整個行政程序的進行嘛那這個行政程序一個比較像是居住中心這個比較像的調處它事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10684.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10709.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
他的行政效率好像沒那麼高因為居托中心是受公權力委託那他有 他可以調處他的調處有法律上的效力嗎那如果再調處不成的話我們再往上一層那是叫申付申訴嗎所以這個可能要不要法治單位還是法務部還是我們自己法治局有有有法務單位我們自己部內也有法治單位嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10712.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10735.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
要請法務部和法治局來表述一點意見都可以部長我決定喔是 謝謝委員因為第一項的前段是說提起調組的調組基本上因為看起來他這條規定是一個類似消費爭議的所以把它定義它是一個調組的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10737.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10763.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那消費增益他他的他的對兒童的侵害性沒有那麼強所以他用調組就表示說他類似民視上面那種增益來調組那不符這個居家中心的居家服務中心的調組進入到縣市府程序如果一直把它定義它是一個類似消費增益的增益的話那可以用再調組這個是可以的再調組 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10768.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10794.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我剛剛講的重點你沒聽清楚因為居托中心它事實上在法律上它沒有一個明確的定位它是公權力的委託這個是我們的理解可是它畢竟不是直接的公權力啊那你說它去處理是一個比較消費屬性的爭議對於服務方式內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10801.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10816.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
或者認為有他的服務托育服務認為有違法或不當致損害兒童權益這怎麼會是消費爭議已經損害兒童權益這不絕對不是消費爭議的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10817.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10841.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那不是消費但我們認為是說讓他第一層先到居托中心去調處因為居托中心是受公權力委託所以這個整部法一開始我們就我一直主張托盟一直主張我們必須把居托中心受公權力委託這樣的屬性明確定義出來那他才要去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10842.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10858.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
權力受損案件的調處了那這個調處不成他在法律上他的性質是什麼如果再申訴或申付他的概念是什麼那這樣的其實是這個比較像是 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10860.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10878.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我们在做医疗事故预防及争议处理法的时候有类似的情形就是在进入诉讼程序之前先做调解那个时候叫调解这个是调处所以通常他调处的可以再调处 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10879.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10902.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
调解者是谁现在是居托中心是叫调处因为你们认为它不是一个真正的公权力所以你们叫把它你们把调解两个字换成调处了那这个调处不成立要再往上那你们要受理的这个地方政府那要叫什么 叫调解吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10903.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10930.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
他剛好調解機制他從調處變調解或是沒有調解機制那如果不是的話他就公權力要介入要進行調查了對啊應該是申 不是陳情應該是申請調查還是什麼的沒有啦 調解跟叫法務部說一下調解跟調處原本就不一樣的來 王上司要不要說明一下王上司 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10936.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10954.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
跟委員報告那個調處我們看起來他是行政機關或地方政府所設置的調處委員會來主導他本來就是是一種那種非訴訟的行政協商程序他的目的是要協助就是當事人做一個比較好的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10955.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10973.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那但是如果說這個調處結果的法律效力呢其實我們看起來他應該是要來自雙方當事人在調處過程中所達成的和解契約他是有一個契約上的約束力那當事人就依約履行他的義務如果不履行那另一方可以依調處協議上 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10975.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10988.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
法院申請強制執行但是他條處協議本身他沒有不會自動具有強制執行力還是要法院來核定後才可以作為強制執行的依據啊那所以這個部分我們還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10989.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11012.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
尊重这个主管机关他们的对这个制度的设计还有他们对这个情节看起来他们需要做什么样的处理会比较能够让这样的一个争议比较和和和谐的处理那是不是一下子就要跳到这个所谓的这个争议的诉讼那可能就请委员们在参事你可能有点误解 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11012.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11035.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
他這個講的並不是說不履行契約而是說對兩兆雙方不能夠達成契約協調而出一個共識這樣子因為他不符這個條處不符條處就是兩兆雙方無法達成共識無法有一個共同協商出一個結果出來 不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11037.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11060.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
因為調處通常我們是那看看這個居托中心是不是我們行政機關委託他做這樣的一個處理那如果是一個調處是這樣的一個效率的話因為是一個協商沒錯那協商到最後要一個雙方都同意有共識的契約來當法律依據可是現在問題就是他兩照雙方沒有辦法達成共識啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11061.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11085.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
沒有辦法達成共識 那這個私下的協商調處就不成立 那就要往上到不是 就不是一個私就不是兩照雙方非送的這個當然也還沒到訴訟 還是在協商那要求行政部門要介入了 那要怎麼處理因為那損及兒童權益要怎麼處理我們這邊的設計看起來他們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11087.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11113.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
結果他就會向縣市主管機關澄清對 本來他們的設計是用澄清對 那就會再另行調查 那會另行調查是不是就會有一個結果那這個結果要怎麼處理那就是就脫離調處的這一塊那可能就要看看那個權責機關 你們他們設計是要做什麼樣的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11134.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11154.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你那個 署長 最終這一段自家縣市主管機關應將陳情處理結果應將陳情處理結果以書面載明事實極力有通知陳情人那倒數第二項是自家縣市主管機關接獲前兩項陳情 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11157.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11180.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
得直接派員調查為什麼不是應直接派員調查這個我也有一點覺得奇怪的地方就是說兒童權益已經受損了那你們你們只是去負責把調查結果告訴陳情人這樣子而已嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11182.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11187.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
告诉家长而已吗我去调查结果是他有没有这样子而已吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11188.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11213.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們不用再採取更高強度的行政的作為嗎我想釐清一下因為你的立法說明還說這一條非屬托育相關人員不當對待兒童事件或兒童托育服務消費爭議事件你說這兩個都不是你在這範圍處理那你到底要你自己的立法說明寫這樣那到底這一條要處理什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11216.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11244.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
因為我當備袋拿開 OK可是剛才雙方有講說這一條是在處理消費爭議可是你自己立法說明有這個我給主席跟各位委員說明因為這個是調處調處結果就是有個成立跟不成立嘛所以成立的話就是兩邊一定都服嘛有一方沒有辦法接受的不成立啊所以它不會有叫做調處結果不服啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11245.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11270.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
就是不成立嘛不成立我們就往後不成立之後那這個家長或什麼他覺得說我現在就來找主管機關因為兩邊的條署既然沒有辦法成立他就去找主管機關所以會直接跳到跟直轄市主管機關提出申請調查那部長這一條到底要處理什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11272.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11300.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
就是要在他進入那個訴訟前的剛才你們自己的說明說要處理消費爭議可是立法說明又說不處理消費爭議到底要處理什麼因為不當對待很確定不會在這處理本來前面就有在處理可是現在就說你這一條到底要處理什麼你們口頭上講說不處理消費爭議可是在立法說明又說這個口頭上說這一條是要處理那個消費爭議可是在立法說明又說不處理消費爭議到底這一條要處理什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11304.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11327.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
可不可以講清楚說這一條到底要處理什麼又違法又說不當損及兒童的權益那到底這是什麼對 哪一類的爭議更為報告你的不當管教是到什麼程度叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11332.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11361.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
如果是如果訴求的內容是到不當管教這樣的程度的話這個其實這個在我們的行政事務上這應該沒有所謂沒有調處的空間了啦這OK啊 你立法說明說沒有啊沒有要處理可是你剛剛口頭上講說這一條要處理消費爭議可是你自己的立法說明又說這一條不處理消費爭議所以讓我們覺得我至少我覺得很混淆到底你要處理什麼先告訴我們你第55條到底要處理什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11361.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11386.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
因為不當對待已經在前面會要處理了所以我覺得很肯認因為這種條文也不適合處理不當對待不當對待要經過很多調查可是妳現在這一條到底要處理什麼可是妳的字眼就是不當妳自損害兒童權益違法或不當妳的字眼就寫違法或不當自損害兒童權益者去申請調處 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11388.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11397.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那如果你把它定一層消費爭議的話應該是要沿著托育的契約這些定型化的契約的這些內容去看啊您不要先釐清一下還是署長可以直接回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11404.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11424.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
你要先定義這一條是要處理消費性的爭議的那就單純一點就是這樣子那如果涉及到違法和不當和不當對待然後損及兒童權益的恐怕可能又是需要另外規範如果違法或不當的怎麼會是調處呢違法和不當就不是調處了 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11428.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11453.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
跟我們報告其實這個兩位委員都很有經驗就是這個家長和家長和這個托育的單位之間這個對於照顧的過程有時候其實不完全是純消費的部分那在扣除消費部分還沒有到達這個所謂不當對待的程度的時候有一些實際上會有一些例如說這個概念我懂了這個就是有人以上戀人未達的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11454.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11479.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
被蚊子咬或者是什么等等被然后什么被其他小朋友咬一口这一类的案件的时候那这个家长会跟家长也许会跟这个我们的托育服务单位会有一些争议的状况你的字眼要讲好一点因为你讲到尾巴两个字我们的文字应该是我们第一项的文字确实是写得不够明确我认为你们整个条文整个文字都要再重新思考拟定包括你这个条储的字眼要不要讲说 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11481.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11491.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
沟通協調先讓他們去討論得向居家托育服務中心申請沟通協調所以不要把那個字眼放上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11492.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11522.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好像变得好像很正式我也不知道所以你这一条要不要如果你刚刚讲的都是照顾正义要不要又不是要那你要不要把这个什么违法又不当制损害儿童权益我们把它再处理一下它其实就是照顾上的一些正义你们重新思考重新界定要处理什么然后再重新拟好你的文字然后我们再重新讨论这条歌词违法就不可以调除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11523.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11537.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
真的所以我覺得這整段怎麼都要修所以這條是先保留了好不好好那我還是提醒這個行政局單位啦剛剛我特別提到那個倒數第二項你那個的調查跟後面應應載明 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11542.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11563.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
應將陳情處理的結果啦這個有點奇怪就是上面那一項是講德嘛下面這一項是應嘛錢都不付應 這第一件事情那第二件事情是 王上士在這邊嘛因為調處跟調解其實上它還是有行為作用的不一樣嘛因為調處應該是協調處理處置嘛調解應該是協調最後是 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11567.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11587.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
朝向解決和解啦所以到底你們要用哪一個就這個要明確好這條我們先行保留繼續來審查要休息啊你可以說啊好來休息溫中休息到12點了要休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11591.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11602.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
沒有啦 你如果要花休息到12點不然乾脆就一直休息到下午1點才開始啦會啦 好啦什麼好 你要問大家的意見啦是不是我們上午選到這裡差10分鐘而已對 好 這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11610.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11636.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
52條 行政委員我們就休息了 好不好好 OK 好 謝謝大家共同意見 來來 這個行政院的版本是56條那諸多委員都是56條齁林月琴委員是條是86王毓民委員是81然後林淑媛是67好 那不在的委員我就不再宣讀齁來 請行政單位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11638.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11662.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
行政院版的第五十六條主要是針對在這個有關在處理過程中會有需要辦理訪視或輔導檢查等等的相關活動的時候會需要人員去提供資料或者是配合調查這個調查的部分包括了受服務的單位以及相關的行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11663.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11679.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那尤其是這個條文的對我們來講需求性是在剛才有提到的像這一類有不適任人員他的一些這個曾經受處分的資料的時候這個會有跨機關查詢的部分我們在這邊有一個法源的依據那這個時候對於這一類資料的處 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11681.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11708.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
因為要調查這些資料所以我們也要求直轄市縣市主管機關在調這些資料的時候要善盡善良管理人的注意義務也注意個人資料保護法的相關的規定這個相關的條文大概各委員的版本之間文字跟我們雖然是有一些小幅度的出入但是基本上概念上是一致的我們建議是不是可以依照行政院的版本來通過 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11710.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11731.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
來 請陳教主委謝謝主席允許再加討論這個地方我個人以及也帶民間團體來詢問兩個點第一個就是請求資料的具體範圍跟使用目的剛剛也當然有略說明這個部分我們是用這樣子的說法帶過呢還是說需要有一個界定這個我尊重但是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11732.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11742.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
請求資料的具體範圍 因為這個很廣喔這個非常廣闊的使用目的那第二個就是說那衛福部這裡有把財政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11743.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11767.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
放進去那因為財政機關的立法理由是什麼可不可以讓我們了解為什麼財政機關也在因為相關性好像是比對於訪視輔導補助等等關聯性比較低是不是這兩個點就麻煩那個就是在做一個說明就請求資料的具體範圍需要define嗎要不要定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11770.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11798.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
然後另外財政機關為什麼也在裡面謝謝來 好 請首長報告這個在調查的過程中確實是會有這個相關資料的需求那這個財政機關的部分我們會再檢討一下因為這個是我們當初在提的時候我們在當初最早在研擬文資的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11799.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11819.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
當時在托育補助跟主要在托育補助的時候當時的這個補助發放他是有一個排付的規定所以他會有需要查掉家長的所得稅的那個他的繳費稅率的部分不過因為這個部分在114年的時候在113年的時候在最後期的時候這個部分已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11819.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11841.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
已經拿掉了現在基本上沒有牌付所有的只要是有育兒的家長都可以拿這個補助所以這個部分我們再檢視一下如果不需要的話我們可以把這個財政的部分把它刪除以上好 謝謝 就是說範圍嘛 你剛剛說明可能不太適用現在了嘛就是不適用那其他的機構需要有一個範圍資料範圍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11845.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11872.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
限定嗎還是相關資料這就帶過去了我們這邊大概都是用必要資料提供相關資料 字眼是提供相關資料上面的 對啦提供然後得請求但是必要資料也是空的就必要資料還是覺得大家覺得都必要資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11873.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11900.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
跟委員報告因為這個確實在有些個別在查詢的時候除了像不適任的行為之外那有的時候在個別的情況查詢的時候確實會有一些比較特殊的需求不過因為我們在這邊有要求到說他還是有要求一個就是不管在資訊安全或者是個人資料處理的部分他都要follow相關法律的規範所以這裡在這個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11901.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11919.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
它本來還是有一個基本的它要符合它的不管是職權的行使或者是這個查詢的一定是業務上有關聯性的需要才會列出來那這個部分在尤其是未來可能會涉及到資訊系統的借接的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11920.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11949.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
其實現在在各機關中間在資料接接的過程裡面其實對於細項的部分那都會有非常嚴都會有非常詳細的檢視那一定會把它限縮在一個必要的範圍之內以上報告從嚴管理不是壞事啦但不能把每個托育機構都當作壞人或那個壞蛋來管理那那個財政確實是可以再檢討一下囉因為我們覺得關聯性不大那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11951.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11973.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
總統他們也有這個質疑嘛就是說那在檢討是說的意思是財政的部分我們再檢視一下因為這個如果當時確定沒有其他的需求我們就把它刪掉可能就可以不需要我們可以把它槓掉好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 那各位有沒有其他意見那沒有就照對 就行政的版本來通過 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11976.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11977.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
好 那我們現在休息然後下午兩點繼續開會 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12002.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12014.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12336.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12336.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
13957.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
13957.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
18196.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
18196.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
优优独播剧场——YoYo Television Series Exclusive |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
19733.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
19755.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
好 我們要準時開會啦因為人數還不足是不是請行政單位從委員到了還差一位是不是請行政單位也幫忙聯絡委員一下行政單位也去把部長找回來給各位三分鐘時間 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
19919.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
19945.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
好 人數已達標那我們繼續開會來 請說主席抱歉因為我最後那一刻不專心我沒有想到沒有討論到為什麼財政部門不能夠拿掉請求提供資料的範圍必須要有財政部門是因為有可能會有補助和查賬之類的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
19947.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
19971.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
因為這個裡面包含訪視輔導檢查補助或調查嘛那財政要留的原因是有時候要查查托嬰中心補助時也要用那財政監督也是有必要的就目前政府有補助機構優化人力比但實際上有聽說有單位用自己的家人當人頭那表面上降低人力比但是事實上在現場並沒有實際去補人 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
19974.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
19988.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以這些稽查是不是需要財政資料行政單位回應一下也有一些像乍領補助的 就是像乍領補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
19990.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
20012.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
公文報告我們目前一般行政上個案對於如果有乍臨補助的案件那大概我們都主要在查證的過程的做法大概都集中在針對他原始來跟主管機關核銷的一些原始的相關的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
20013.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
20042.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那經驗上來說直接去跟財稅機關去調資料的印象是比較少一點那當初我們在最早的版本去列這個的時候確實主要是考慮到比較多是因為那個在你們現在做補助上的調查我知道他有那個稅率級距的部分我們現在講的是對監督業者的這個可能性這個不是在為了家長有可能是業者拿補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
20044.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
20065.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
業者拿補助有一些稽查 類似這樣子所以我們是不是先留著先留著 先不要決定說刪除到時候再問一下這個部分我們可以支持 沒有問題 謝謝好 那56條就一樣保留了 好不好你們去大坡Check之後在第二輪審查的時候再明確的說明好 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
20072.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
20097.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好 我們繼續審查這個有培委員61條 林署委員63條那劉建國是修正第11條之一的條文修正動議來請行政單位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
20102.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
20125.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
有看到了嗎有好 請說有關陳佩玉委員林淑芬委員提到的提案中有這個版本裡面有居家托育人員的一個專心托育的條文那我們經過評估之後我們建議是可以參採但是文字的部分我們有一個建議的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
20126.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
20148.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
主要是因為現在兩位委員的版本大概都針對於這個專心托育的行為有列了四款那我們是建議在第三款有關在托育服務時間無證當理由離開托育地的這個部分它其實概念上應該會和第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
20150.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
20172.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個16歲以下或需要特別看護的託兒獨處或由不適當的人代為照顧觀念上應該是基本上觀念上會重疊所以我們是建議說這個部分也許是不是可以就不用重複的來去單獨把它列出來那我們建議這個部分的文字大概就做一點點調整我們建議用 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
20173.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
20199.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
只要列三款就好那第二款的話那個文字的部分就是文字稍微做一點著作的修正就是使六歲以下或需要特別看護之收託兒童獨處或由不適當之人代為照顧那這個部分的話我們有一個建議的文字已經擺在有投影出來也有提供給委員那請委員做一個參考 以上好 那請聽 請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
20201.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
20227.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我認為還是要保留 為什麼我覺得這樣子因為現行 現在你講說像聯合收託好了聯合收託就是有六歲他們是各帶二跟二 二加二那我就是離開了我沒有交給不適任的人我也沒有讓他獨處可是往往有時候就是他手頭上的那二有一個孩子死亡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
20228.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
20241.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那我講的意思是說你還是要去提的事實上是可以解決這個問題他本來就應該要被處罰否則他會認為對另外一方來講就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
20244.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
20270.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
應該講說如果另外一方就是叫抄搜可是這邊我覺得你要去處理的還是希望他不要沒有什麼特別正當理由的話不應該離開否則他也沒有違反二他沒有違反二二 他也沒讓六歲以下獨處因為可能他太太還在可是他太太呢也是有托育人員資格那他也沒違反你的二的後端所以我認為是不是應該還是放著 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
20271.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
20280.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好 請聽委員您十分我嗎對啊不然我多念生命第一個就是說這個我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
20283.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
20312.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
第二款裡面不適當的人什麼叫不適當這件事情它就是一個爭議因為不適當是一個形容詞而在法律的概念裡面在兒少權法裡面所謂的不適當人家還有具體的指出說比如說無行為能力的人7歲以上未滿12歲的小孩或依客觀事實注意認定有影響受照顧兒童及少年身心健康或安全之餘者 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
20314.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
20332.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
人家至少都還有定義可是我們這個地方完全都沒有定義第一個不適當這三個字到底指涉的是什麼概念第二個第二個我們那個地方要留著原因是因為譬如說我這個有證照的保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
20334.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
20354.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
他每天固定時間都要出去外面洗雞洗洗然後呢 還是出去買菜買買到外面四五點鐘這個期間 他是留給大部分都是給無證照的他的其他家人可能阿嬤啦 還是有阿祖的啦還是十六歲 十八歲的啦這樣子看管 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
20356.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
20384.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
就是說他把托育時間該留下來的時間他留給其他沒有證照的家人當一天比如說托育8小時他可能5個小時 6個小時都是留給無證照的家人看那這樣到底是不適當嗎有沒有不適當或者是他出去串門子把小孩也是留給阿嬤看著這個阿嬤可能很年輕70歲 60歲看起來都很有能力這有沒有不適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
20386.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
20396.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
或者是他真的是 我剛剛講的經常都是不是一天 或是偶爾經常都是這樣子這樣子怎麼處理好 請黃雄文 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
20403.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
20431.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我是認為應該是大家在多討論因為我在之前也有碰過類似的一個狀況就是說他原本也是居家托育人員那他把那個他在照顧的那個小朋友請他的媳婦待會看就是看了一下結果這個小朋友可能是嗆到還是怎樣就過世了所以我是覺得說像類似這樣的狀況可能大家在多討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
20432.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
20457.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
可能會比較好 比較完善一點好 謝謝來 請首長再回應一下跟各位委員報告我們原來的想法是說有關林慧琴委員所提到的部分我們原來的想法是如果說是屬於像聯合收拖的情況有一個人長時間的不在的這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
20457.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
20481.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們原來的構想是說在將來針對這種情況是不是可以用超收的方式來做一個處理這是我們原來在預想的應對的一個方法那另外第二個就是有關在林淑坤委員所提到的這個在第二款裡面所提到的所謂不適當之人代為照顧的部分那目前這個條文的文字的寫法大體上是參照現行兒少法第51條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
20483.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
20504.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那在兒少法的施行細則第14條裡面對於所謂的不適當之人也有做一個比較細緻的一個定義那包括了無行為能力人7歲以上未滿12歲兒童或者依客觀事實足以認定有影響受照顧兒童及少年身心健康或安全之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
20505.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
20533.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我個人也曾經在食物上處理曾經遇到過有居家的保母早上她出去幫家人買早餐結果家裡面只剩下一個大概國小高年級的保母自己的小孩在顧收託的兒童也就是依照當時現行的兒少法第51條的規定來做相關的處罰有這樣的一個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
20533.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
20540.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那以上我們大概的一些經驗來跟委員做報告 謝謝好 那請李玉琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
20542.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
20571.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我還是比較不同意剛剛這樣的想法好像是懲罰另外一方有一個硬要出去他都不會被懲罰結果事實上是懲罰另外一方是說你抄襲我這一個我就是跑出去結果原則上原來我收拖的孩子發生事情結果好像我也沒什麼太大的問題結果先行政罰罰的話先罰抄襲應該還是對應這一方這一方的人他就本來就不應該沒有什麼理由可以外出吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
20571.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
20588.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
你就是主要照顾者啊那怎么可以把责任最后推脱到另外一方说我去罚对方抄收所以我比较不同意我认为还是把它列进去 以上我觉得大家厘情就是说这不是一个联合收拖的状况里面讨论的你们讲的是联合收拖嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
20592.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
20618.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
對啊我們講的是一個一個托育地而且只有一個保姆職業那就像黃秀芳委員剛才講的他其實可能交給的並沒有不適當啊可是他臨時狀況一發生那個人完全沒有沒有我們剛才講要上什麼什麼數我們剛才救命數啦還有什麼緊急事故的應變處理他通通沒有通通都不會然後就發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
20619.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
20648.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
但是就是說我去買個早餐對那如果這種狀況應該是怎麼規範就是買一個早餐跟把它丟著丟給他的其他家人然後整天出去洗雞去菜市場或是去百貨公司洗洗再回家然後由沒有證照的家人拖這樣有默契有證照的去收拖那再加上一個沒有證照的輪流狗那這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
20649.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
20676.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
不用規範嗎緊急狀況絕對沒有辦法所以通常有時候出事就是這種狀況那我說明一下齁 這個陳委員跟林委員的提案的版本是內容是一樣啦 寫一樣我的是修正動議我有提修正動議 你們上面寫寫別的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
20679.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
20690.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我姓劉你寫姓王的然後你剛剛都沒有練到我你自己提案也寫不適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
20694.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
20722.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
對啦 我們的不是但我們有框定我們有框定要不要在立法說明裡面加強我們有框定喔對啊對啦但是我們講說我們那一款應該不要被拿掉因為他把我們的無正當理由離開托育地那你說我要去買個早餐這個東西應該可以算是一下子就回來他就有正當的理由嘛那你說我要去洗鴨洗鴨顯然就是無正當理由嘛所以我們框定的是無正當理由離開托育地 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
20723.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
20746.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
並不是所有離開都不行 要不要把他加入 或他緊急去看個病這個是另當別論嘛所 所長這一項可以就直接加入吧 還是怎樣可以吧 可以嘛齁 那可以就在文字上我們再做一個調整嘛 如果可以的話那要調整在第幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
20749.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
20768.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這個部分的話我們是不是就基本上文字就依照原來林淑雯委員和陳培鈺委員條文的文字的版本那只是只有這個第二款的文字就是那個看護之託兒獨處我們建議是不是那個看護之收託兒童獨處把它稍微寫完整一點謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
20778.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
20778.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
20787.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
20813.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我們另外順便報告一下就是我們不好意思剛才有沒有來得及回應到我們主席趙偉的提案的是在甄列在第十一條之原來的建議是在甄列到第十一條之一那我想如果說這兩部分的話是不是就可以一併來就是併在一起來做一個處理OK啦我沒問題啦但是我現在在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
20815.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
20826.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
剛剛再把這個增下去 有點怪怪的因為要不要思考一下 於脫衣服務時間無正當理由離開脫衣地我們講不得嘛 對不對有正當理由就可以離開會不會有這樣立法上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
20837.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
20859.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我建議一下就是這邊是想不得有下列行為所以應該是優先講不得行為不得行為就是不能離開托育地應該原則是禁止 例外開放這樣比較符合這個條例的精神但是現在這個寫法直接講無正當理由離開就是我覺得有點倒過來 應該是說在這邊寫說 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
20861.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
20890.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
他前面應該是不得離開托育地就是不得有下列行為就是托育服務時間不得離開托育地然後你要其他的但書才是應該在家要不然我覺得在在立法的體力上感覺不得有下列行為就是說這些行為是負面的嘛對啊那我說我們現在一款一款都在講負面的行為啊所以就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
20892.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
20913.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
你叫他不能離開托育地對啊應該是這樣先這樣講然後你例外的是什麼再加不是說直接講說不得有不得有你在講叫他不能離開托育地不得有不能離開托育地不得有下列行為與托育服務時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
20916.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
20932.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
这个外面毫无弹性你就是叫他不能离开脱离地你前面语句应该是这样然后你例外的原则你不是先写 后面要怎么写现在要怎么写就是看你们原来的你们希望什么才是无正当理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
20937.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
20955.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這個想一下啦方向是接受但文字上要怎麼寫可能會是一個因為不得離開托育地才是我們應該要去要求的嗎那你講的是說有些例外情況突然身體不舒服或什麼那那個應該是在在 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
20960.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
20974.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
王玉敏的講法應該是說於托育時間不得離開托育地但有正當旅遊者不在此縣有緊急正當旅遊者 要緊急啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
20982.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
21009.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
對 有緊急而正當的旅遊者不在此縣對 沒錯就是說不能離開脫離地但有緊急和正當旅遊者不在此縣對但是要不要不在此縣那他就可以走了他沒有人顧怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
21011.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
21026.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
對啊 所以這個會有問題啦我知道你的意思啦那誰要顧你要把法條寫到這樣會而且正當的定義怎麼定義正當就照兒少全法案沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
21034.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
21045.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們再想一下大家再集體討論一下但是先保留一下因為這個的確要想的很除了我們想像的還有執行面的問題要怎麼處理都要一併想進來好給行政機關讓你們展智慧想一下保留那繼續我們來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
21062.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
21077.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
對 第六章家長之權利與義務由委員王玉民還有另外你有沒有出息我就不再宣讀了就王玉民委員的第六章家長之權利與服務義務 對不起義務好 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
21085.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
21110.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
王雲明委員版本的第43條的部分是對於父母兼戶人可以要求沒有 先是章名對不起章名的部分這個是因為是院版所沒有的那王雲明的這一章的部分因為有關家長權利義務的部分其實先前在總則的部分大概都已經有相關一致性的規定那我們建議這一章的章名可以不用處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
21112.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
21118.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
不予列入 可以了 謝謝繼續處理委員委員所提的第1條次第4層條 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
21119.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
21145.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
王委員草案第43條的部分主要是規範這個對於家長父母或監護人可以請求提供的相關的資訊那這個部分的話因為在行政院版的第5條第6條原來已經有要求有一些是必須提供有一些是必須要公開那我們是建議這個部分是不是可以就不拿進來 以上好 王委員可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
21146.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
21166.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
都已經有涵蓋進去好 那王委員所提的第43條草案就不以列入那繼續處理王育民委員所提的第47條草案王委員所提到的 王委員版本第47條是有關家長組織是可以參與托育服務的評鑑的規劃那這個部分的話確實是這個評鑑有關評鑑抽的部分的話那這個相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
21174.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
21197.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
去辅导他去成立相关的团体的话这个涉及到内政部的权责那托育机构的凭借的部分我们未来是不是能够把这个一些家长的团体或者家长的意见纳进来我们可以在前面已经有相关凭借的条文里面我们可以在未来在授权的办法里面一并来处理那我们建议是不是可以先不纳进来以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
21198.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
21226.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好我希望這個部分是可以納入的因為事實上這整個這個托育其實跟家長是息息相關那家長對於機構的管理他們也有他們的觀點跟看法所以如果在這種評鑑過程納入這些家長團組織的意見的話我覺得是多一個角度也可以提醒我們政府這樣子那你就是如果你這邊不列就是你說你在相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
21228.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
21242.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
目前在未來對於這個托育機構的評鑑已經會有授權去訂定評鑑的操作的辦法那那個對於評鑑機構的整個評鑑機制細部的規定都會在那個辦法裡面來做規範會納入嗎是 我們來想辦法把它融進來還是這個需要變成附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
21250.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
21263.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
你們會如果委員會做附帶決議我們也可以配合辦理這個已經跟委員 先前跟委員這邊有報告過所以我們會把它納進來做一些討論如果要增加一個附帶決議我們還是沒有問題好 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
21266.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
21281.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
好 所以王玉敏委員所提的四七條草案我們就不予列入了 謝謝那接下來處理一樣王玉敏委員所提的章名第七章人員資格與管理草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
21284.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
21308.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
王委員的第七章的部分因為相關的條文在前面我們對於這個居家托育跟機構托育的部分相關人員的資格跟處理大概我們在前面已經有一個章節專門來處理那我們建議王委員的這一章我們就不用把它再重複的拉進來以上報告好 可以啦好 謝謝那這個章節我們就不 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
21309.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
21322.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
列入接下來處理行政院版本是第五張華則張明是第五張華則那多數委員也都是第五張華則林玉琴委員是第六張華則王育民委員是第八張華則 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
21325.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
21350.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我們一樣並案討論那請說明 請行政機關單位說明各委員的張名的名稱都一樣只是委員的版本大概條子排列不太一樣我們建議是不是就依照行政院的版本以上好 各位應該沒有意見了好 那我們就照院版的第五章發者通過繼續我們處理行政院版本是第57條草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
21352.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
21372.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
然後多數委員也是啦然後委員林月琴是第74條草案然後林淑媛是第68條草案我們邊緣來討論對不起陳清惠委員是第60條沒有看到抱歉我們一樣邊緣來討論來請行政單位先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
21377.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
21401.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
行罪版第57條主要是針對有違反第36條就是對兒童有一些像生性戀愛等等各類的相關的行為的時候的一些處罰那這個處罰的程度是相對比較高6萬到60萬那現在內容的部分各委員大體上相近那主要有比較不同的地方是原來在這個因為我們的構成要件是違反第36條 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
21402.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
21418.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那先前36條是有保留主要保留的情況是在第36條的部分林淑芬委員有建議有提案是說這個36條的部分要把居托中心的工作人員要納進來那當時這個條文是有保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
21418.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
21444.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
那所以如果第36條要納進居托中心工作人員的話那我們這邊第57條前段的序文就是托育相關人員就需要配合做一個甄列的動作所以我們建議是不是這個條文可以先暫時保留搭配36條來做處理好 各位有沒有其他意見那沒有我們就依照行政院的意見先行保留第二輪就在討論 好來繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
21448.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
21469.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
院盤是第58條多數委員是第58條然後林玉琴委員是第66條的草案王育民委員是第62條林淑媛是第69條陳慶輝委員是第61條還有一個修正動議是林玉琴委員的修正動議好請行政單位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
21471.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
21485.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
行政院版的條文主要是針對違反這包括18、19、20的設立許可的相關規定那處罰的罰還的額度也是6萬到30萬而且可以配合停止收拖等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
21486.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
21513.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那这个部分跟委员各个委员的版本中间比较有不一样的部分是在跟林月琴林委员的版本的部分因为林委员的版本的林委员的动议的有增加是不是要处罚的对象增列到负责人这边是大概一个比较不一样的地方那另外一个就是因为这个现在处罚的条文构成要件的条文里面那18 19 20 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
21516.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
21531.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這三個條文裡面18、19是還在保留的階段那我們建議是不是要一併做一個保留以上報告好 這樣大家沒意見吧OK 好那這條一樣我們就先行保留第二輪再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
21533.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
21546.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
來繼續審查院板第59條 董委員是59條 條是59條的草案那林彥雄委員是69條 王玉敏委員是65條林淑美是70然後陳清惠委員是62條請行政單位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
21551.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
21565.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
行政院版第59條主要是針對居家托育人員的一些重大違規行為定的罰則那罰換額度是6萬到30萬那這個部分跟各委員的版本大致上構成要件都相當那主要是 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
21567.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
21582.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
唯一會有需要注意的地方是因為這個裡面的構成要件條文包括違反的第11條44條45條50條的罰則那目前其中11條45條是屬於保留的情況我們建議是不是也先做保留 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
21583.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
21598.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
好 各位應該沒有意見嘛那我們就保留 待第二輪來繼續討論 再討論來 院盤第60條 多委員是60條那委員林月琴67 委員王玉敏63條的草案還有林淳偉是71條的草案陳清威委員是63條請行政單位 我們一邊來討論 請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
21609.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
21617.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
行政院版的第60條針對托育機構的有一定的違規的行為的處罰那包括了19條26條第2項第3項27條第2項第3項 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
21623.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
21635.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
以及聘僱人員有38、39、40等等相關的規定那目前的話會有這個構成要件裡面跟前面的條文會有涉及到保留的部分包括第19條26、38、39、45 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
21638.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
21658.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那這前面有若干的條文是處於保留的狀態那跟委員的版本去對照的結果會有一部分主要是張雅玲委員的有一個修正動議那她的動議是針對這個新任托育機構的負責人跟主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
21659.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
21685.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
跟 如果對於跟原 違規機構有一定的親等關係的時候是不是要做一個相關的處罰有多一個新的處罰的樣態那這個部分的話 現在這個部分也是處於還沒有討論所以我們建議這個條件是不是先暫時予以保留 以上好 各位應該沒有意見啦齁一樣 先行保留 待第二輪再討論 齁繼續審查委員林月琴68條 齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
21688.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
21712.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
然後王玉明是64條應該就這兩位委員而已請行政單位說明林蔚琴委員草案第68條 王玉明委員草案第64條王委員的部分因為是針對互助式托育機構的兩位都是針對互助式機構的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
21715.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
21731.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那因為我們現在對於互助式托育的部分都已經直接定位為它就是屬於托育機構其中的一種形態所以它的違反的話其實在前面相關的托育的條文托育機構的處罰條文大概都已經可以含括進來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
21734.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
21762.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
搭配前面不管是不是有保留的部分就是他的行為太陽的部分大概就是他就是屬於托育機構所以只要有違反的話那不管是超收拒絕檢查等等相關的太陽那通通都是可以依照這個條文來做一個處罰我們會建議這個是不是可以併到相關的條文裡面行政院版的相關的條文裡面以併來做一個處理那這邊是可以就先不納入以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
21764.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
21778.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
好 請王委員OK齁 不予列入啦齁然後林月琴應該也可以接受啦齁林月琴委員沒有怎麼樣請你回應可不可以不予列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
21779.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
21799.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
因為署長有講了可以併載其他法條行嗎謝謝好就這個不以列入繼續審查院版第61條其他委員多數都是61條那委員您願意請70第4條草案王玉敏文第66條 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
21800.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
21818.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
然後林署委員是72條陳慶惠委員是第64條的草案我們併案討論請行政單位表示意見行政院版草案第61條那這個部分的話是針對托育機構有一些相關的行為他要違規包括19條20條29條30條49條的違規行為的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
21825.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
21852.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那這個部分的話目前這個相關的違規條文裡面其中19條和30條的部分是還處於保留的狀態那不過因為在先前跟各委員在做說明的時候那其中有一些條文我們會建議如果我們有一個建議是說其中在資料沒有上傳到網際網路或者是這個居家有委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
21854.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
21874.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
應該是林處分林委員的建議的條文的版本裡面有提到有涉及到處罰對象要不要包括到居家托育服務中心的部分的相關的違規的處罰我們有準備一個相對應的條文不過因為其他的有幾個條文現在還在保留我們建議是不是先暫時予以保留 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見 怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
21877.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
21901.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
是啊那我還是先表示一下意見就是說我不知道為什麼你們後邊尤其我覺得像監視器這一塊常常往往都把它拿掉把資料刪除之後沒有辦法用所以那現在如果要上傳可是它不上傳的話那現在反而事實上你後邊罰得非常的輕就是罰六千到三萬這邊是三萬到三十萬起跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
21901.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
21928.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我覺得如果有侵法的話那根本就是沒有用啊所以我才想說當然等一下你要保留可是我希望你們回去的時候還是去考慮把它放到前面來就放這一條不是放後邊好 林委員也請了意見委員的意見來 請林總委員抱歉我忘了我們在前面的25條第5項有談到公共化托育機構的薪資規定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
21931.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
21959.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
當時這個條文對院版沒有這個但是我們之前有好沒關係保留好了保留以後我再到時候再一併討論好謝謝那這條就先行保留接下來來處理林月琴委員是第71條對不起就只有林月琴委員的第71條 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
21961.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
21982.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
請行政單位說明有關林月琴委員版本第七十一條他主要是針對互助式托育的一些違規的情況包括托育人照顧筆然後投保以及資料保存以及人員的雇用的辦理的信心那這幾個違規的太陽 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
21984.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
22007.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
因為我們現在對於互助式托育的部分我們就直接把它定位成就是跟托嬰中心的型態是一樣的所以托嬰中心處罰是一樣所以我們建議可以在相關的條文一併來處理不用單獨拉條文出來單獨定罰則我們建議是不是可以先不拉進來 謝謝可以喔好 謝謝 那就不以列入啦來 繼續我們討論這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
22012.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
22040.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
王毓民委員所提草案第68條就只有王委員王委員的第68條也包括有狀況跟前面林瑋琴委員的草案的狀況是一樣的那在這個處罰條文大概相對應的其他的條文裡面我們大概都有配套的處理以上我們建議是不是不納進來好謝謝那就不以列入繼續審查行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
22041.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
22059.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
第62條 多數委員都是62條那除了有林岳勤委員是72條草案王玉敏委員是69條然後林淑美是第73條陳清薇委員是65條那我們並案討論來請行政單位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
22061.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
22078.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
行政院版第62條真是針對托育的相關人員的處罰包括對於錄影影資料的維有保密或者是株照或者是這個以及對於托育機構的人員對於他的人員他的工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
22079.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
22100.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那有前面的行為的話也要施以同樣的罰款這樣的規定那這個幾個條文各委員的版本大致上的內容都相當那只是因為這個條文裡面會涉及到先前有第11條第30條還有在保留所以我們建議是不是也先做保留以上可以啦齁好65條對不起62條啦齁的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
22109.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
22130.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
其他委員 選舉並保留待第二輪再來討論來繼續討論林玉琴委員是第75條草案跟王玉敏委員67條草案我們一併來討論 請行政單位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
22131.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
22160.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
呃林委員和王委員兩位的呃這個草案的內容都是都是針對互助式托育機構那一樣就是機構型態的調整那相對應的這個違規的型態我們已經都在其他的條文裡面都已經有相對應對應到所以我們建議是不是就先補納進來以上兩位都可以兩位可以嗎好謝謝那就這兩個條文兩位委員所提的我們的草案就不以列入那繼續審查行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
22161.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
22181.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
第63條 多數委員也是63條除了林岳勤委員所提76條草案王毓民委員是70條草案然後林淑穎委員是第74條草案陳清薇委員是66條草案我們一樣併案來討論 請行政大會說明還有 對不起還有一個林淑穎委員所提的修正動議併案來討論 請行政大會說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
22184.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
22201.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
行政院版的草案第63條主要是針對沒有具備托育人員的資格違反規定或者沒有登記去提供相關的托育服務的處罰那這個部分各委員的版本大致上內容都相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
22202.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
22229.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那其中的大概對於唯一的差別是有些在罰還額度上面各委員的版本有些有些是高一點有些會低一點那罰還額度會有相對的不同那不過因為都是違反第十一條的條文現在還在這個條文目前是保留所以我們建議是不是有必要也一併先保留以上好 各位委員應該沒有意見了我們就先保留一樣啊 一樣就併這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
22231.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
22245.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
並在一塊討論好 繼續處理院版第64條那其他委員的草案是64條唯獨林淑雲委員是草案第75條陳情務委員是67條那請教育部先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
22249.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
22273.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
行政院版第64條就是針對托育的相關人員對兒童有第36條的一些重大的像體罰 霸凌 性騷擾 不當管教等等這樣的行為 太陽但是 有這樣的行為但是如果情節沒有重大到這個非常嚴重的情況的時候那我們對他處理就有一個分級就不用到前面的條文處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
22273.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
22290.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
五到三十萬這樣的一個罰款甚至列入這個不適任人員的名單這樣的情形那這個條文我們有一個分級的處理那各委員的版本這個有的條文因為有的委員的版本有分級有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
22291.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
22316.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
版本並沒有像行政院版當時有做一個分級這樣子的設計那這個部分的話大體上有跟行政院版條文有做這樣分級設計的條文內容大致文字都差不多那唯一現在會需要處理是因為它的構成要件是第36條的規定現在還在保留那是不是要建議一併保留可以齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
22317.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
22326.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見 沒有 我們就先行保留繼續來處理院版第65條 讀書委員是65條那林署委員是第76條陳清輝委員是第68條 我們一樣一併討論 請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
22336.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
22358.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
行政院版第65條是對於這個托育相關人員對於直轄市縣市政府去執行職務的一些相關組織如果不配合的一些罰環那可以然後這個部分的話那目前各委員的版本文字上大體上都比較相近那其他的應該幾乎都相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
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那這個條文的話因為它的構成要件是第37條本文規定那這個條文在37條先前是已經審查通過那我們建議這個條文是不是可以依照行政院條文的版本通過以上可以嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
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好 可以齁 那各位沒其他意見那第65條我們就依照行政院的版本來通過 |
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謝謝 繼續審查院版第66條那多數委員是66條 那林玉琴委員是第7條是第7條的草案 王玉美委員是第71條然後林淑穎委員是第一樣是第77條陳情惠委員是第69條然後還有林淑穎委員所提的修正動議還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議 我們一併來討論請行政單位來做說明 |
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行政院版的66條的話是針對居家托育人員的規定包括妨礙稽查藉故藏匿小朋友或者是有超收的情況或者是收費等等有違反規定的一個處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
22438.007 |
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那罰款額都是一萬元到五萬元那現在跟各委員中間的版本的部分的話主要會有差異的在行為太樣的部分是其中像林淑芬委員 劉建國委員的兩位委員的修正動議 |
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是有要增列沒有在剛才的提到的沒有在收拖時間專心托育的部分那這個部分的話在策略面我們是覺得可以是配合來辦理那只是因為這相關的幾個條文目前11條16條的條文現在還是保留我們建議總體是不是先做一個保留的動作以上好 我可以 林委員也可以那各位有沒有其他意見 |
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沒有 我們這一條就一樣先行保留那繼續來審查院版第67條多數委員也是一致 都是67條的條次那委員林月琴是第73條的草案然後林淑穩委員是第78條的草案陳菁委員是第70條的草案一樣一併來討論 請行政單位表示意見 |
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22504.924 |
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行政院版第67條是針對托育機構的一些違規太陽的時候要處相關的罰則包括這個設立的裡面有面積設備不符規定或者是收託兒童的年齡上限有超過或者是書面契約的訂定違反規定等等 |
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22540.967 |
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這些太陽的部分跟各位委員的版本內容大致上是相當的唯一會有不一樣的地方主要是現在林淑芬委員的版本對於這個處罰的在這樣 |
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這個相對應的條文裡面是不是要針對居家托育服務中心受委辦的時候如果有一些違規的情形是不是要納進來一併做處罰那在策略面的話我們覺得是可以配合來處理那現在只是程序面那因為先前在第19條第36條已經保留我們建議是不是先暫時於保留以上好 這一條問題是用保留各位有沒有其他意見 |
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好 沒有啦 好 謝謝那我們就保留第二輪來討論繼續來處理院版第68條 多數委員是第68條然後委員林業勤是第80條的條次草案還有王詠敏是第75條的草案林署委是第79條陳清威委員是第71條我們一樣併合來討論 請行政單位來表示意見 |
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刑退版草案第68條是針對居家托育服務人員違反這個我們依照第11條定的一些辦法裡面的一些輔導管理規定的時候如果經限期改善沒有改善的一個處罰的法環那這個部分的話各委員的處罰的條文的文字 |
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22616.011 |
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雖然會有一些不同但是大體上的規範的精神是一致的那主要的現在主要是因為第11條目前還是保留的狀況我們建議是不是先予以保留 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有我們就先行保留 待第二輪討論 |
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繼續來處理院版69條那多數委員的條文也是69條那除了委員林月琴78條的調適的這個草案還有王玉敏委員第72條的草案林署委是第80條然後陳青偉是第72條還有一個修正動議是委員林月琴所提的修正動議我們一併來討論請行政單位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
行政院版第69條是針對托育機構如果有沒有參加沒有辦理團保的或者辦理團保沒有去依照規定去賠償或者是拒絕將攝影的攝錄影的資料監制到網際網路那或者是攝錄影設備的配置的部分有違反規定那以及 |
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相關的內部的沒有依照主管機關31條定定的管理規定去做相對應的處理的時候的一些罰則那這個部分的話現在 |
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各委員的版本處罰的要件大致相當那唯一需要我們去比對的結果有關在林月琴委員的臨時動議的部分那有覺得其中有一些行為太陽是有加重處罰的必要要移到前面的第61條 |
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那這個部分的話原則上我們會尊重那這個部分其他的部分各委員中間的版本大致上除了文字上面去做一些佐整以外我們覺得應該都還大概跟委員的草案相當那唯一是因為現在30條 34條有保留我們建議是不是先暫時預保留 |
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好 各位應該沒有意見嘛 這一條一樣我們還是先行保留繼續來處理委員李韻琴這個條文第79條的草案還有王玉明委員是第74條的草案那我們並要來討論 請行政單位表示意見 |
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林委員的第79條和王委員的第74條都是針對處罰的主體都是針對互助式的托育機構那行為樣態的部分都已經在前面其他相關的條文都已經有相關的規範那互助式的話因為會併到跟一般的托育機構同樣的處理我們建議這個條文就先不納入 以上好 林委員應該OK啦好 那我們就不予列入繼續處理院版 |
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第七十條 多數委員是七十條那委員林月琴是八十一條的這個條文的草案還有王玉敏是第 委員是第七十三條的條文草案那林淑穩委員是第八十一條的條文草案還有陳勤委員是第七十三條一樣併案來討論請行政代表表示意見 |
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行政院版第70條是針對違反包括像第8條有關的一些衛生安全的相關的規定然後或者是托育專業人員沒有去上課或者是沒有完成基本救命術等等相關的訓練等等是一定的罰處罰的規定那各委員的版本大概大體上來說都跟條文構成要件的部分大致上都相近 |
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那現在主要是有陳培宇委員和林淑芬委員對於這些有些行為的部分有要搭配一個處罰要搭配一個祭典制的一個的設計那這個條文在等一下的條文會出現那另外在現在要處在這個構成要件的條文裡面其中第52條 |
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22890.351 |
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呃 剛才在討論的時候呃 好像是保留的好 那我們建議是不是要一併先予以保留 以上好 各位應該沒有意見了齁 我們一樣保留待第二輪再討論那繼續來討論呃 院盤第七十條欸 啊 對不起 第七十一條嘛齁 對然後 |
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只有陳行為是第74條的條次以後 以後我們變來討論請行政大會表示意見 |
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行政院版第七十一條是針對托育相關人員托育機構然後法律代理人那如果說他是有違反第五十六條的規定無正當理由的時候所處的罰還那這個部分的話因為跟各委員的版本文字上都相當大概只有文字續寫的方式有稍稍微有些不同那只是因為五十六條剛才在討論的時候 |
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我們確定一下 56條剛才在審查的時候是保留的我們建議是不是需要配套作為一個保留好 一樣保留齁然後帶第二人來討論那繼續審查林淑媛是82條然後這個王振旭及張衍林委員有所提的修正動議第四條修正動議四條 |
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對 那請行政委員表示意見林淑芬委員和張雅琳委員 王振旭委員等等各委員所提出來的條文或者是動議大概都是針對居家托育人員是不是要做一個違規祭典要不要引進一個違規祭典的制度 |
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23010.239 |
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我們現在針對這個部分的話我們大概爭過一個評估以後我們是覺得應該是可以嘗試著把它納進來所以我們大概有一個建議的條文的文字我們現在是先把它我們覺得如果要納進來的話我們有一些初步的建議的文字跟想法目前寫的部分的話 |
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23014.869 |
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23030.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
我們大概會初步有一個建議的文字剛才有一個單張有提供給委員現在也投影在螢幕上那就請委員參閱大概的內容是說我們對於他如果有違反的要求的話有經過要求限期改善的 |
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我們可以同時依照它的程度去進違規祭典1點到3點那如果它的違規情形很重達到這個廢紙證照的程度的話那我們就會也不用再祭了那另外對於這個經過祭典如果在兩年內達到6點的話累計達到6點的話就要暫停新收個案 |
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而且要公布他的姓名另外如果是在五年內經過一次有這樣前將所提到這樣的暫停新收再來一次的話那我們就會把他這個 |
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就把它廢止它的一個登記那這樣的一個做法因為會涉及到具體的這個哪些行為太陽該記幾點然後這個記點期間的計算等等的細部的一些作業規定所以我們在最後會增訂一個授權的辦法那大概是我們現在初步規劃的一個條文的架構那以上報告好 汪委員 表示意見 |
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23094.728 |
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23123.117 |
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因為這一個祭典是一個新的概念你們過去沒有實施過那如果是要往這個方向的話我覺得你們那個定定的你們應該多一點的模擬跟討論不能太粗糙而且我建議就是應該要找這個相關的地方政府大家好好討論一下因為你畢竟是一個新制度然後納在這邊方向上大家可能可以接受但是不能自己隨便就喊一個祭典我覺得這樣就比較躁進一點所以 |
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就是詳細的我覺得應該是母法通過之後授權你們在執法再訂比較仔細那在母法上面你直接就講幾點我不知道你這個有沒有已經反覆比較嚴謹的一個思考這樣子如果沒有我就會建議說 |
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23168.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
不要在母法裡面去講幾點而是母法裡面提到有這樣的一個新的祭典的制度但是相關的一些要授權你們在執法裡面去訂定施行我覺得過程要嚴謹這概念是好的但是過程一定要嚴謹因為這樣的修法如果你們前面沒有反覆討論直接就說幾點我很擔心這樣會不會有點粗糙 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
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23191.038 |
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好 謝謝王委員 接下來請林淑穎委員 晚之後再林月琴委員好 我又有一個新的修正動議我們新的修正動議其實是增加了 還多了最後一項就是依第四項規定 廢止登記者自廢止起四年內不得辦理登記為居托人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
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23217.21 |
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這個是我們新增加的但是就是說前面那幾項有沒有不同我現在好像沒有辦法臨時比對是不是就是說基本上行政院願意參查我們的祭典誌然後大家可以在我們是樂觀其成但是其他的有沒有差異是不是再看一下再討論 |
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23232.515 |
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好再請林月琴委員我們是托盟的版本是現場托育的這個現場的托育機構裡面托育的人的實務上的回饋的啦我 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
23236.669 |
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23254.295 |
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還是你們要再真的要再稍微討論因為現在祭典只有台北在執行其他的縣市沒在執行我樂觀其成可是還是要去看其他的縣市能不能找相關的地方政府來討論 |
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23255.976 |
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23278.024 |
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然後確定這個執行的項點的這個到底幾點要怎麼樣去做我覺得甚至以後我認為說未來要達到一致性你們執行像環境環評40項都花了好多年大家的一致性現在都還是存在一些疑慮更何況未來這樣子的祭典看行為的每一個行為樣態的一些狀態裡面會不會有 |
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23306.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這麼多的居托中心的工作人員那78家居托中心好了如果每一個居托中心五個人就好了那事實上有多少樣能不能品質掌握我覺得這一點可能要去考慮這樣子會比較妥適未來這樣執行的時候才會一致甚至未來應該透過很多教育訓練來讓這78家的居托中心的工作人員事實上是一致性要高這樣以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
23307.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
23329.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
好 謝謝林總委員但基本上是要跟大家溝通就是說這個如果要有這樣祭典制你要再跟細節討論沒關係但是我們在母法一定要明定進去因為這個祭典會連動到他的職業資格還有對他職業上的限制權力上的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
23330.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
23355.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
所以這個都一定是必須要在條文裡面母法上明文規定出了他的權利義務這樣的一個關係都要規定出來否則的話他是他就不能執行了所以基本上我們都是要在母法裡面定點數啦就是要這樣子好來提亮署長讓他可以清楚一點休息文中謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
23725.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
23754.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
好 我們繼續開會那這一條就保留嘛 是不是對啦 好那我們繼續來審查 院盤是第72條 多數委員是72條那委員林燕瓊是第82條的草案王玉民委員是第77條然後林淑美是83條 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
23756.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
23777.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那我們邊緣來討論 請行政單位 還有對不起 還有修正動議第4 修正動議第12是對不起 范雲委員跟劉建國委員 然後第4是這個王俊旭委員跟張雅玲委員的所提兩岸的修正動議 我們邊緣來討論請行政單位來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
23782.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
23797.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
行政院版的第72條是針對這個依照本法者處罰的罰環的主要是在他執行的方式那這個條文的話各委員的版本跟內容大概跟我們的跟行政院版大致上都相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
23798.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
23823.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那現在有內容的部分有比較有不同的地方的一個是張雅玲委員的修正動議的版本那他當時是有提到這個如果有一些機構是三金等內重新去開設就是違規用類似用人頭這樣的情況是不是在這個條文來做處理那我們經過評估以後我們會傾向於是不是有可能未來在 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
23826.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
23853.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
設立許可的階段那透過設立許可程序的一些加強就直接在設立許可的流程所以在前面的應該是在行政院版的26條的附近我們可以增加條文來做處理那就在這個條文就先不做相關的增訂或者調整那另外這個范雲委員有動議要刪除這個公佈的行為人的名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
23854.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
23883.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
的期間是不是由中央主管定之的這個規定的話那因為我們考慮到這個違規的情節畢竟還是有輕重那我們這個條文也參照的是幼照法第61條第4項的規定所以我們建議是不是還是可以建議范雲委員的這個部分的期間的部分我們就不予參裁那總體來看我們是建議這個條文是不是可以依照行政院版的條文建議條文通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
23884.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
23903.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
來 各位有沒有其他意見來 請林委員我先問一下 當然你們現在有CRC的那個專門去公告的那因為這邊還是因為證據委員他這邊請我代為發言就是說違反他本來事實上是有列應該設 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
23904.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
23926.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
建制違反兒童托育服務法的系統查詢網站並因病公告公佈其處分期日跟違反條文跟罰還的金額那現在是說你們會未來這個有特別法去說明說未來會去再有一個查詢網站還是你們會整併在CRC那個公告網站上 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
23927.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
23950.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
跟我們報告原則上我們目前規劃傾向是維持在CRC的網站因為這個當時就已經讓各縣市已經開始去把資料做一個集中那這個民眾在查詢其實也慢慢逐漸的養成習慣我們希望在未來法律通過之後就不要再去有不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
23951.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
23979.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
路徑讓民眾在了解訊息上比較方便那在那個網站裡面內容的設計上因為現行是針對違反兒少法的罰則的處罰的部分的這個公告的內容那未來在這個網站裡面設計的部分怎麼樣去把兒託法的這些違法的在網頁的內容呈現上面我們會再做一些我們會跟在法律通過之後我們再來做一些設計跟調整讓民眾在看的時候在民眾查閱的時候更方便以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
23980.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24002.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
對 可是那個網站上並沒有續名說一定要公告這也沒有任何法律依據那我不知道說在這邊要不要特別只講說要公告在查詢網不用特別去講什麼那至少到時候這樣依詢的話你公告在414也OK沒有特別說一定要要求要特別設什麼系統可是至少在這邊要不要續名講 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
24008.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
24034.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我們當初沒有特別在條文裡面額外去寫也就是參考到現在食物的運作各縣市大概在因為採取機關幾乎都是直轄市縣市政府在配合在做這樣的動作的時候我們的經驗看起來也沒有各縣市在配合操作上面其實都沒有什麼特別的額外的疑慮或者是摯愛所以我們會覺得說在這邊在操作上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
24037.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
24053.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
在法律條文裡面去訂網址因為將來有可能會發生如果因為未來有更方便的查詢的方式的時候可能反而會變成要修法律反而對民眾或者是食物的對大家的便利性會不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
24054.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
24073.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
這個有一些不確定的地方那隨著這個法令通過之後因為你本來的那個CRC這邊的寫的只有公佈行為人跟兒童及少年福利機構跟收出養媒合服務者就沒有針對因為未來這個也不會泛屬在兒童及少年福利機構了 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
24074.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
24091.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
你要嗎 就是去甄列 否則的話證據委員他本來是希望有設一個這個網站我說我沒有不同意 因為我本來就知道你們有CRC這個可是看你們CRC的這個公告的網站裡面並沒有把今天我們的額托機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
24092.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
24119.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
行為人當然就OK拘托人也OK可是問題是托育機構就不是會在你這裡邊了所以如果要這樣的話你們要配合去做後面的網頁會配合去做調整就是裡面檢索的欄位或者是那個查詢的頁面的部分我們都會配合法律通過後做調整可以好那第72條我們就依照行政院的版本來通過各位有沒有其他意見沒有好那我們就這樣通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
24121.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
24136.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
繼續來處理委員王育民所提第76條草案請行政院長表示意見王委員的第76條主要是針對有 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
24140.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
24169.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
76條是針對有一些違反規定的裁罰之外那除了公布的情況之外還可以要求他去接受兩小時以上十小時以下的輔導教育那這個輔導教育的部分因為在行政院版的第37條目前我們有相對應的規範有相對應的一個設計所以我們建議是不是就不用單獨再拉出來用單獨的一個條文我們建議就不拉進來 以上好 謝謝我很同意 不予列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
24170.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
24192.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好謝謝繼續我們來處理最後一張結第6張負責那應該行政院是第6張其他委員都是哪個你的85條在哪裡還沒有到吧然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
24199.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
24210.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
後來那個行政院就是第6章的負責都是委員事的除了林月琴委員是第7章然後王詠敏是第9章 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
24213.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
24235.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
應該就是依照第6章的覆轍 大家沒有意見嗎好 那我們就照院版的章名通過來 剩下最後6條 繼續來處理行政院版草案第73條 多數委員是73條那委員林業企是調適是83條的草案王玉敏委員是第78條然後林淑美是84條 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
24238.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
24265.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
來 請病安來討論 請行政單位表示意見第73條的部分是針對現行依照在這個法律未來施行之前依照現行規定已經開始在做居家托育人員的人員如果說他跟未來修法之後資格會有不一樣的情形的一個過渡性處理那這個這個內容的部分各委員的版本的條文的文字大都基本上都相當所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
24266.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
24292.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我們會建議文字上是可以考慮依照行政院的提案通過那唯一是因為這個部分因為他的人員資格的部分現在是定在第十一條草案第十一條目前十一條還保留所以我們建議跟委員請示一下是不是還是先暫時併同保留以上好 各位有沒有其他建議 沒有那我們就先行保留 第二輪再討論繼續來審查林淑敏委員所提 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
24294.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
24318.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
這個條文第85條的草案 請行政院保持意見有關林委員的第85條的部分是針對具高等考試 相當高等考試的公務人員等等相當的資格及格的人員那在施行前已經在擔任托育機構主管的部分的一個信賴的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
24318.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
24347.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那這個部分的話我們在因為有關在托育機構的相關主管人員的資格跟管理的部分那我們現在在行政院版的條文裡面在第19條第4項他有授權去訂定這個機構的這個人員的管理的部分那我們是建議這個部分是不是能夠併在這邊一起來做相關的處理就不一定要另外去增訂條文這是一個初步的建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
24349.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
24374.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
這個我們是先保留這個意見我們想一下好那就先行保留先不要說不要啦因為我們建議可以移到那邊去是因為說在這邊其實並沒有當然的是他就不具資格跟前面一條的狀況稍微有一點點對沒關係我們就到跟44我們的44條到時候再一併討論可以啊可以到時候併到44條的時候再併再來第二輪討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
24377.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
24388.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好 繼續來審查院板後所提第74條的草案那多數也是74條除了林淑穩是86條那一樣併案討論請行政單位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
24391.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
24420.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
行政院版第74條就是相關的這一類托育的部分要發給他的機構許可證書是不要徵收規費那在內容的部分各委員的版本都相當的一致那只是因為這個發證書的規範包括第11條18條等等相關條文現在18條19條都還在保留所以我們建議是不是也一併就先做一個保留以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
24421.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
24436.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就先行保留待第二輪討論繼續審查院版所提第75條多數委員也是第75條的調適的草案那委員是林月琴是84條王玉明委員是79條 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
24437.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
24444.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
第75條是針對直轄市縣市的機關人員在執行這個相關職務的時候那為了要讓民眾可以確信他是在執行職務所以他需要出示執行職務的證明文件或者是組織辨識的標誌那各委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
24459.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
24483.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
目前的實體的內容大概都是一致的委員的版本之間大概只是有些委員會把執行職務是依照哪幾條的部分會單獨去列出來但實體內容都一樣我們是覺得這個依照它就是執行本法的職務我們建議這個部分是不是可以就依照行政院版的條文給它通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
24484.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
24495.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
好 各位應該沒有意見吧那我們第75條的條文草案就依照行政院的版本來通過繼續審查院版第76條委員林淑溫是88條的草案來並案討論 請行政單位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
24503.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
24532.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
行政院版第76條那主要是針對這個現行的托育的管理是適用兒少法的規定那在本法如果通過了之後他就要依照這個托育服務法的規定管理所以在這邊需要有一個有一個比較明確的過度過度的指引的一個條文那就是那各委員的版本大概文字上都一致那我們就建議是不是可以依照行政院版的條文通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
24532.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
24556.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
好 各位應該沒有其他意見嗎謝謝那第76條的草案就依照行政院的版本來通過繼續審查林月琴委員所提85條條文草案還有王育民委員是第84條的草案那就這兩條請行政代表表示意見林月琴委員的第85條和王育民委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
24557.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
24586.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
版本的第80條那都是針對托育服務的契約的格式是不是以及定型化契約等等的內容那這個部分的話在先前行政院版的條文裡面我們都把它定分別是定在第15條和第28條裡面所以已經有相關的規範所以我們建議在這邊是不是就先不納進來 以上好 林委員林院長委應該沒有意見啦齁就不以列入 謝謝繼續審查院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
24587.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
24614.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
第77條那多數委員也是77條齁那一併加李月琴委員所提87條調適的草案還有王玉敏委員是82條的草案那還有林淑穩委員是89條我們一樣並願討論請行政院表示意見行政院版第77條是針對本法的施行細則由中央主管機關定製那各委員的版本內容都一致我們建議是不是可以依照行政院的版本通過 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
24615.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
24633.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見 沒有 那我們就依照行政院所提的第7條的草案來通過繼續審查第78條那院盤78條 多數委員是78條的條次那委員林月琴是88條的條次然後委員王玉民483條 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
24635.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
24661.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
然後林淑雯委員是90條 一樣併案來討論 請行政院長表示意見行政院版第78條是本法的施行日期那各委員的版本的都跟內容都一致都是由行政院定之那我們建議是不是可以依照行政院的提案的版本來通過 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見 沒有第78條也是最後一條 我們還是依照行政院的版本來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
24665.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
24693.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
好委員會報告我們兒童托育服務法的草案現在已經第一輪審查結束總共要不要跟大家報告一下通過幾個條文幾個條文保留有沒有辦法馬上算出來一點時間好 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
24696.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
24721.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
要跟委員會做一個報告老師我們有保留幾個條文還有修正動議跟各位說明一下主席請說明我們是不是因為審了這麼多次才終於完成第一輪是那因為其實已經審到腦袋都不清楚我的意思是說到底哪幾條保留增點在哪裡那是不是要整理一份給我們看因為我們真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
24722.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
24742.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
經過了幾個月半年的審查連爭點在哪裡大家都沒有整理出一個版本出來給我們參採的話審查起來的確是有一點障礙所以是不是我們請他們整理出來再進行第二輪這樣子整理出來再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
24743.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
24747.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
也遵循各位委員的意見廖召偉也在 還有兩位委員都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
24767.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
24793.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
好 沒關係 他現在在整理跟各位做一個報告之後我們就來做一個處理看起來署長腦筋也已經不太好 署長 部長還好我們是六個章節啦 然後這個七十八個條文嘛 對不對對 是 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
24796.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
24822.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
總共78條保留59條條文跟各位做個說明一下還有14個修正動議沒關係啦 因為我們大部分的爭點都知道 都釐清了就只剩下有時候就是文字的確認有時候就爭點再討論一下不會再像第一輪討論的這麼仔細這麼的繁複啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
24825.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
24836.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
大家都相互的理解了現在是我們要妥協到哪裡而已好了 就跟委員就跟各位報告齁 反正就78條文有59條保留啦齁然後附帶決議有一個決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
24840.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
24868.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
有一案決議 九案還尚未決議 尚未議決還有14個修正動議還是請行政單位就依照委員的建議好不好整理相關的一些爭點那如果有個別委員的還是可以事先去拜訪到公司去溝通 對不對那我們在進入第二輪的速度就會加快而且修法會更真完備更真精準 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
24871.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
24892.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
好 那各位就要離開了是不是好 好 謝謝齁做以下決議齁 二統統與胡華草案等二十九案 三位審查完略那另擇期繼續審查那本日會議到此結束 現在三位好 謝謝各位 謝謝我們廖昭偉 謝謝林玉琴委員 林淑穎委員謝謝部長 謝謝老千不太清楚的書長耶 |