| IVOD_ID |
16948 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16948 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-15T08:40:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-15T13:21:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:40:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd81c79e81327dd8bc51c2d382a4ba035cb5dbf79f23f633bb5237b054b91820bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【10月15日及16日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:40:46 - 13:21:00 |
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好 現在初期委員以主法定人數現在交通委員會正式開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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1161.738 |
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1187.69 |
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立法院第十一屆第四會期交通委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一四年十月八日星期三上午九十至下午一十一分下午一十四六分至二十十七分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員李昆哲等十五人議席委員林德福等二十四人議席委員交通部部長陳士凱等主席李昭吉委員昆哲報告四項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定 |
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1190.211 |
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一 邀請交通部練習報告業務概況二 邀請交通部進行專題報告以下本日會議由交通部部長陳士凱等報告後藉由委員洪孟凱等23人提出質詢軍警部長陳士凱及相關人員分別予以答覆 |
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1206.451 |
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1221.26 |
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決定一報告及詢討完畢二委員蘇清泉等二人所提書面諮詢均列入紀錄並刊登公報三委員諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速書面答覆通過臨時提案一項散會宣讀完畢 |
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1225.435 |
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1253.602 |
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好 目前在場委員人數還不足 所以我們意思錄待會再做確認現在介紹我們在場列席的人員 今天是速發部的業務報告所以首先介紹速發部部長林盈靜謝謝我們數位策略司司長蔡壽權任性建設司司長牛信仁 |
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1256.932 |
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1279.249 |
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資源管理司司長曾文芳數位政府司司長王承明數位國際司司長莊盈智資料創新司司長莊明芬數位發展部主計處處長吳俊鈺速發部秘書處處長陳仲山 |
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1287.389 |
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1314.031 |
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速發部資訊處處長王富忠速發部人事處處長莫永榮速發部政風處處長陳春信速發部法治處處長張學文數位產業署署長林俊秀 |
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1317.205 |
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1343.991 |
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資通安全署署長蔡芙蓉國家資通安全研究院林盈達院長財團法人台灣網路資訊中心董事長黃聖雄財團法人資訊工業處策進會范俊毅執行長洗手間了他不是九點半就要離開現在還洗手間 |
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1346.343 |
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1373.868 |
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好來等一下請范君毅執行長進來之後再讓我們知道一下謝謝來財團法人電信技術中心副執行長林炫祐本日會議進行數位發展部列席報告業務概況我們請列席機關報告請數位發展部部長林怡靜部長進行報告 |
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1384.209 |
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1392.178 |
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各位委員大家早安我是數位發展部部長林益靜今天由我來跟各位進行數位發展部的業務概況報告 |
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1394.384 |
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1416.691 |
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那數位發展部目前的施政方針主要是延續之前我們黃部長的三項政策就是第一是推動AI產業發展第二強化自然韌性第三是落實打造作為此外我們今年也接下來我們會加強數位政府的建設首先在AI產業的方面我們會推動 |
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1418.191 |
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1434.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
AI基本法的立法那很感謝就是立法院的各位委員的支持那我們現在已經經過了逐條審查也跟那個教文委員會一起做了那個委員會的政黨協商那現在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1435.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1460.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那個行政院的版本也已經出來了那我們現在就等著接下來往整個院的協商立法院的協商然後希望能在這個會期裡面通過這個AI基本法那AI基本法的主要的很重要的內容就是風險的管理那我們採用的方式是一個三層的架構就是在人工智慧基本法這是一個上位法他立下了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1462.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1483.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
人工智慧發展以及監管的各項基本原則以後接下來會第二層會由我們數位發展部去訂定一個人工智慧風險分類框架然後在這個框架底下在衛福領域的人工智慧相關風險規範這些作用法會由衛福部來主導訂定然後在交通領域的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1483.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1500.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
方面呢這個譬如說自動駕駛等方面這個會由交通部來訂定那勞動部還有警管會等部會他們會負責跟勞權以及那個就是人工智慧輔助投資的各方面的監管以及立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1501.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1524.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
OK那另外在AI產業發展方面我們現在有五大政策工具基本就是第一就是算力然後再來是資料人才行銷以及資金在算力方面我們速發部會提供免費的GPU算力給AI的新創團隊我們的目的就是讓這個AI的新創團隊能很快的去驗證他們想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1524.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1539.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
如果他們驗證成功了那他們就可以去跟天使投資人爭取進一步的投資那他如果說他的實驗失敗了那那個也不會因為他們要購買龐大的GPU算力造成說他們那個傾家蕩產這個損失很大這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1543.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1557.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那除了當然是說我們政府能提供的免費算力還是很有限的所以我們現在就是推動就是說配合我們金管會我們速發部發了一個韓式就是AI算力是一個策略性產業這樣子一來的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1559.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1579.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
保險業的龐大資金就可以拿來投資算力中心Data Center另外我們也是擬定促參重大公共建設範圍然後提送財政部審議如果通過之後就是建立這個Data Center都會有租稅優惠然後在資料方面就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1580.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1597.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們會推動促進資料創新利用發展條例的立法我們也希望說那個立法院這邊能多給我們支持我們希望在這個會期能通過這個法案然後這樣子我們就可以把政府所擁有著作權的一些語料盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1598.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1626.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
语料还有资料尽量开放出来让台湾的AI产业能用这些资料训练新的AI Model那另外我们会推出台湾主权AI训练语料库就是除了我们前面提到的政府拥有著作权的语料之外我们也希望说民间能把他们拥有著作权的资料尽量开放出来让不管是台湾美国然后欧洲日本韩国甚至于是中国大陆的这个AI |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1627.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1654.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那個大型模型在訓練的時候能參採能多使用這個具有台灣觀點的語料OK那再來在人才方面我們會推動AI產業人才認定指引那我們認為說這個AI的人才事實上這個範圍非常的廣泛而且那個AI因為變動速度非常快那我們認為說有三種不同的AI人才那個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1654.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1679.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個AI研究型的人才就是進行AI基礎研究發表論文這種人才那這種人才主要是由國科會跟教育部負責在那個大學以及研究機構裡面訓練那我們書發部主要的責任是在於說在於訓練AI開發人才以及AI應用的人才那希望能利用現成的AI工具提升大家的工作效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1680.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1695.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
以及利用現成的工具去訓練新的AI模型因為現在有很多的工具即使就是說對於AI的程式設計沒有那麼清楚事實上在百工百業還是有可能訓練出他們自己的AI模型 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1697.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1711.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那我們就是除了發佈AI產業人才認定指引之外我們接下來也希望說我們能發佈這個AI公務人才發展辦公室下面我們會有那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1712.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1736.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
AI公務人才的認定指引而且我們希望這兩個指引是採用同一條標準然後形成一個產業鏈不管是這個人才的需求方或者是人才的供給方也就是學校或者是補習班或者是人才本身他都有一個依歸他知道要大家知道說應該訓練出什麼樣的人才然後你在徵才的時候可以明確的定出我需要的是哪一類的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1738.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1761.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那再來在行銷方面我們認為說那個好的新創公司最需要的其實不是政府的補助而是大量而穩定的訂單所以我們就辦了很多的產業媒合會找了很多就是每次找8家AI新創團隊上台介紹他們產品然後把他們潛在的客戶通通找來讓他們就是盡量媒合盡量讓這個AI新創團隊找到訂單 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1766.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1782.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那在資金方面我們向那個國發會匡列了100億的資金準備要來投資AI的新創團隊那我們這邊必須講說這個100億資金並不是拿來做補助而是我們希望說就是經過前面那四個步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1783.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1810.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個算力資料人才行銷都已經有一定規模的公司他準備要往海外擴展或者是擴大營業規模的時候他有這個資金來繼續發展所以這是一個投資的概念而不是一個補助的概念那我們就講說算力是我們這個AI新創團隊的第一里路而這個資金最後的這個上市資金是他上市之前的最後一里路所以我們是有這個順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1813.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1839.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
然後在第二個施政重點是強化資安韌性那在資安方面我們會分別從法律面科技面以及商業面著手那在法律面的話我們已經完成了資通安全管理法的母法修正這是在今年的8月29號立法院三讀通過然後在9月24號總統府也正式公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1839.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1861.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那这个主要重点是要建立严防机制扩大资安集合以及限制高风险产品的使用那接下来我们会就是进行各种执法的修正然后制定那个危害国家自通安全产品的管理的政策那在科技面的话我们会从 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1863.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1886.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們要提供政府機關然後關鍵基礎設施大型企業以及中小企業的情資分享應變及協處以及事件追查的能力也簡單的來說就是事前事中事後我們在事前必須做好預警防範以及監控那如果說發生了資安事件的話我們必須迅速處理 迅速的把漏洞補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1886.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1912.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
然後在事後我們要做鑑識分析然後追查把這個犯案的人員盡早繩之以法那在科技面的話另外我們也會發展一些新的科技那一個是AI主動式防禦技術那另外一個是後量子密碼的技術因為我們知道量子電腦這個發展非常快那一旦有這個量子電腦就是有那個Quantum supremacy這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1914.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1937.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這種電腦的時候它可能會破解我們現有的這些加密機制所以我們現在就是預作防範開始發展這個後量子密碼的技術並且開始就是籌劃這個應用希望說在量子電腦在取得重大突破之前我們也先做好後量子密碼技術的防範工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1938.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1958.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在商業面我們是希望說推動安控及資安產業的發展因為我們知道說資安是全面性的我們政府的力量有限我們不可能去幫所有的政府單位所有的大型企業以及周小企業以及所有的關鍵基礎設施做 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1959.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1979.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個資安的防護最重要的我們要藉助民間的力量那這個是一個很大的需求也是一個很大的商機那我們在113年年底產值台灣的資安產值已經超過817億那年成長率預估是10%那我們希望在我們建立也是一樣建立一個健康的產業讓這個產業快速的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1982.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1997.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那在商业面我们还会设置企业资安事件应处咨询专线然后推动企业资安产品市集平台然后就是再来就是推动企业建立产品安全事件应变机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1998.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2024.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
然後在韌性方面我們是希望從陸海空三個方面來強化我們國家的通訊韌性首先在陸的方面我們就是鼓勵電信業者在車站隧道以及重要通路沿線提升5G網路的涵蓋那我們也希望說辦理那個偏遠地區的通訊查核就是因為我們這個政府有一些補助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2026.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2042.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
就是補助各大電信業者在偏遠地區他去設立這個通信4G或5G通信基地台那我們要去查核確定說這些電信業者有確實做到這些他們答應要做到的事情然後在丹納斯風災之後我們也去 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2043.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2064.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
研究就是那個基地台故障的原因那我們發現最大的原因有三種第一個是電台倒塌第二個是光纖那個線路斷掉第三個是缺電沒有電也就是它電線斷掉那我們認為說最容易解決的是沒有電就電線斷掉這個部分那我們會想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2065.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2082.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
看是利用當地的綠能設施或者是利用這個移動式的柴油發電機就是我們會做好這方面的備援工作將來如果遇到類似的狀況我們可以迅速的讓一些基地台就是迅速回復工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2084.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2110.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
OK 那在海的方面就是我們會強化那個海欄的建設我們除了新建海欄之外我們也要強化現有的海欄登陸站的韌性設施就確保說如果這個海欄登陸站遭到不管是攻擊或者是天災的時候我們有一些備援那我們也會跟海巡署 航港局等就是共同協防 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2111.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2131.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那在空的方面那我們現在就是除了目前我們台灣已經在使用的OneWeb低軌通訊衛星以外我們會想辦法就是找到其他的那個低軌通訊衛星的那個解決方案因為我們知道這個解決方案越多的話這個我們常常講說我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2132.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2145.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
做一個一直多元的通訊韌性建設那到時候如果有天災或者其他那個重大災害的時候那我們就會保持台灣不管是對外以及對內的通訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2147.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2172.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
OK那再來第三個施政重點是落實打詐作為那我們在那個打詐的方面我們要是從法律面科技面以及商業面著手那在法律面我們非常感謝就是立法院通過打詐專法之後我們現在已經確實要求幾個主要的平台他們必須進行實施廣告實名制然後如果我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2174.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2199.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那個有一些詐騙的訊息或廣告的時候我們通知他們以後他們也必須在24小時之內下架然後在科技面的話那我們是最重要是建立一個網路網站通報查詢網那截至目前為止我們已經接獲了在這個網站通報查詢網上面已經接獲了超過33萬筆的通報那其中18萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2201.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2225.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
以上我們已經確認是詐騙的訊息那我們已經通知那個Meta Google以及Line等平台請他們下架那另外就是在白名單策略方面我們政府就推動短網址的服務就是目前有4萬筆的短網址超過1億人次使用然後有500個機關就是發送了1億4千萬則的111簡訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2228.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2245.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那這個就是讓民眾知道說你只有這個11的這種那個簡訊才是真正政府發出來簡訊如果說有其他的電訊號碼發簡訊給民眾然後他的但是上面顯示的並不是11的話這應該就是詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2247.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2259.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
再來在保護個資的方面我們要加強保護個資的作為因為如果任何企業有個資洩漏的時候這些個資很可能就會被詐騙集團取得變成他們詐騙的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2261.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2285.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那在科技面我們這邊畫面上看到的就是我們網站通報查詢網到目前為止的就是成效那我們不敢說這個網路詐騙都已經絕跡但是至少在Facebook上面這種假冒名人的這個訊息或者粉絲頁已經大幅下降然後再來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2285.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2305.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那個投資照片的廣告跟訊息也是一樣就是我們看到這個圖表這是我們資安院統計出來這個數量已經明顯的往下那我們會持續努力希望繼續能改進那在商業面的話我們就是努力說服Meta以及LineGoogle這些大型的網路平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2306.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2320.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他們加入我們所謂的好人隊就是說他們以前他們認為說打炸這個事情他們只是一個旁觀者那他們只是在政府要求的時候他們做出一些配合的作為但是我們認為說不管是Meta或者是Line Google他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2321.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2340.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
的那個資源事實上比我們政府還要多所以他們必須加入打詐的行列那經過我們的各軟硬兼施的勸說之後那我們很高興的知道說那個Meta那個在去年在過去一年他們已經在全球下架了幾百多萬個涉及詐騙的賬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2342.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2361.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
當然這700多萬個並不是完全是針對台灣因為現在的詐騙集團通常是跨國性經營的但是另外有430萬則針對台灣的詐騙訊息也已經由Meta透過他們的AI技術主動發現主動就是阻攔就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2361.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2390.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
他出現刊登之前在出現之前Meta已經事先把它防堵掉那我們有時看到就是說我們如果能得到Meta跟Line這樣的公司的配合的話那事實上打炸的工作會更有效率那在Line的方面那我們第一個是Line跟我們聯合推出了那個防炸動態警報的機制就是在Line上面設立一個官方帳號免費提供給我們速發部讓我們速發部進行各種那個防炸的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2391.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2419.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
然后再来就是之前有很多的LINE使用者他的账号被骗然后那个被骗走以后这个LINE的账号又被拿去做诈骗那我们在跟LINE合作以后LINE已经推出了一个所谓的再次登录的功能如果有民众的LINE账号被诈骗集团骗走只要在24小时之内赶快再次登录就可以把这个账号抢回来那另外我们也发现说有些诈骗集团会仿冒 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2420.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2449.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
政府的公務員或者是志工然後開設LINE的帳號進行詐騙所以我們現在已經在跟LINE合作政府LINE官方帳號官方帳號認證機制也就是說以後這個認證過的公務人員或者是志工人員他的LINE帳號旁邊會有一個綠色的勾勾就是認證說他是真正的公務人員或是真正由政府認證的志工人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2451.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2470.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
再來最後一點就是強化數位政府的建設那我們會有三件主要的工作第一個就是推動以人生事件為基礎的政府服務譬如說出生、就學、就業、就養、中老這個都是人生的重大事件譬如說我們的小孩在就學的時候我們要辦很多的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2471.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2494.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
就是跟政府有關的事情這可能散落在內政部可能散落在衛福部等等那我們希望就是說以後我們可以在同一個網頁上作為一站式的服務民眾不管是有小孩子出生或者是有小孩子就業他到這個網站上他可以很清楚的知道他需要去辦理哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2495.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2519.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
然後再來就是我們希望運用AI工具改善政府效能我們第一個就是我們跟人事行政總署我們就是合作我們就成立了AI公務人才發展辦公室然後我們進行訓練然後我們要確定說這些公務人員受到AI基本技能的訓練之後他回到他的工作崗位 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2520.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2548.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
能馬上有AI的工具可以使用而且這些工具跟他所授訓的內容是相契合的然後再來我們會建置數位憑證皮夾那數位憑證皮夾我們認為說它是未來數位數位社會的基石然後它的選擇性揭露功能可以更好的保護民眾的資安以及隱私那另外就是這個數位憑證皮夾它是一個國際的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2549.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2575.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
合作推動的一個計畫那我們希望說以後台灣人可以用台灣的在數位憑證皮夾裡的那個台灣駕照到國外去租車然後到國外去譬如說要去做各種事情的時候也可以利用這個台灣這個數位憑證皮夾裡面的各種憑證去認證自己的身份但是當然最重要的是我們要保護民眾的隱私 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2576.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2589.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以以上就是數位發展部的報告我們有四大施政主軸分別是推動AI產業發展強化資安韌性 落實打造作為以及強化數位政府建設 謝謝好 謝謝林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2601.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2623.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
接下來進行詢答 首先先宣告以下事項一 詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘 列席委員5分鐘二 委員發言登記於10點30分截止三 各委員如有臨時提案請於10點以前提出以便議事人員來彙整四 暫定10點30分休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2635.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2645.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好 現在請登記第一位委員 黃孟愷召委發言 謝謝好 主席謝謝 麻煩請林部長部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2654.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2672.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好 部長早部長剛剛本席只限您聽您剛剛所說的業務報告AI非常重要思安非常重要打詐非常重要推動數位政府治理非常重要四大面向其中打詐的部分我想跟國人最息息相關也最 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2673.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2702.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
有深刻有這個生物痛覺本席在您兩個禮拜前來本席辦公室的時候我也提供我們有網友提供的這個打詐騙的影片我想了解一下說現在一個進度跟狀況來我們先播放一下因為這跟AI你剛剛講到的以及詐騙其實詐騙集團他們也很聰明他們會日新月異變換很多手法是這個人你認識吧當然對 看得出來嘛黃仁勳嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2703.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2704.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
來 點一下好來 第一黃人士應該不會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2719.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2737.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
要送什么CHAP GTB的书可是很聪明他说黄仁勋送你AI实战手册大家想AI教父要送你东西免费很不错再加上他刚刚的那个声音语调跟黄仁勋真的有点类似是我们再看下一个张忠谋的有没有我们是不是还有一个张忠谋没有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2746.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2759.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
另外還有一個張忠謀的也是這樣的一個影片看得出來就像張忠謀的聲音但實際上他看起來就是假的詐騙訊息而且他要叫你去申請然後讓你去 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2761.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2777.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以這已經跟我們之前你剛有報告講是說這個所謂粉絲專業名人的粉絲專業以前是我創一個名人粉絲專業但是我不知道後面是誰但現在他是直接用這一個名人的影像來去合成那我們看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2778.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2796.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
不只是這個科技大佬會被受害陳美鳳是個知名藝人他自己也在他的臉書到9月18號都還持續講就說他現在不能只有肖像權要AI影音跟聲音的規範不然的話連聲音都造假了 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2797.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2812.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
詐騙集團用他的聲音用他的肖像變成是一個合成AI的影片然後來去做這種詐騙來 我們先針對這幾個部分簡單說明一下我們目前跟這幾個平台以及怎麼樣在防範這個新型態的詐騙來去做打仗 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2812.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2831.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
OK 首先在那個法律面方面我們之前我們通過的打詐專法裡面其實有規定就是說這個廣告的內容如果是由AI生成的影像或者是影片的話那它必須做標示所以我們在法院上我們已經有依據了好 但是你有看到這個有標示嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2832.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2857.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
沒有標示所以我們一定就是已經有法源的依據可以把它要求它下架那另外在技術面就是如同我們剛才講的我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網事實上委員剛剛看到那兩個就是黃仁勳的影片我們之前已經透過那個網詐通報查詢網的機制就是通報了以後我們會進出了分案然後發現說他說仿冒黃仁勳的我們就直接去通知這個黃仁勳的辦公室請他們確認說這個是不是黃仁勳本人 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2859.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2885.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那當然不是黃仁勳本人他回覆他太忙了但是他的秘書就跟我回覆說這個不是黃仁勳本人然後我們一旦得到這個確認以後我們就馬上自動的利用自動的機制通知這個YouTube或者是Meta各個平台要求把這個下架那我們就是剛才看到那個黃仁勳那個影片已經下架了就是作為這種機制確實是下架了現在沒有找到但是我要問的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2887.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2901.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
兩個部分第一 名人的詐騙尤其是這種國際名人尤其黃仁駿現在飛在世界各國你很難說第一時間我還要聯絡他確認說是不是本人第二 其實平台他要上這個廣告上這個詐騙廣告我們看上一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2903.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2927.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
平台要上這個詐騙廣告他是先收取廣告費用的所以平台怎麼會容許或放任一個AI生成的影片來去推播讓我們還要一般的民眾看到之後接收到來去做通報然後之後再透過速發布然後再去要求平台下架那這樣變成是我們速發不一樣或說我們一般普羅大眾消費者變成是我們幫平台在打工 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2928.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2950.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
是沒錯我完全同意那個所以說我們現在要的是應該是平台他自己就有科技因為對沒錯魔高一尺道要高一丈沒錯所以我們一直強調是說平台應該也有責任他要去做事前的審查如果說明明是這種AI合成的虛偽廣告他連上都不應該讓他上架沒錯那我們現在跟這幾個平台溝通的狀況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2951.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2973.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
OK 事實上就如同委員剛剛講的我們認為說這是平台的責任所以Meta事實上在過去一年當中我們在要求之下他們已經用他們的AI技術做臉部辨識然後他也建立了由我們書發部提供一個名單讓他建立就是台灣的公眾人物的臉部的那個我們現在提供多少名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2977.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
2997.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
600個我們提供了600包括知名的人士譬如說陳美鳳有沒有在裡面有 陳美鳳有在裡面然後他們會用Meta會用AI臉部辨識的功能如果說有人是用照片是黃人訊他會馬上擋住但是他並沒有做到這個影片的掃描 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
2997.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3021.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
所以這還是個破洞事實上為什麼現在出現這些AI的影片也是那個詐騙集團他在鑽漏洞他以前可以直接用黃仁勳的照片就可以開設粉絲頁現在沒辦法所以他現在就用那個影片的方式所以我們接下來我們一定會要求Meta他除了用那個掃描這個影像以外他對於影片他也應該去做掃描 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3023.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3046.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那另外Meta因為現在本席剛剛看到我們所謂的詐騙通報網就是我們速發部這個詐騙通報網其實你看那樣態超過九成都還是從Meta公司的下面不管是Instagram 不管是Trade等等的來源這真的是超過因為這是客觀的數據嘛那你現在也已經速發部有開罰1800萬就累積幾個數字給Meta了 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3049.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3066.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我想確認一下Meta現在繳錢了沒有 他們已經繳了繳錢了那後續 先做百萬已經繳了但是後來250萬因為還在繳納期所以還沒到最後的時候我們相信他也會繳好 來 再回來但是不管是1500萬不管是250萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3068.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3083.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
其實對Meta公司來講也杯水車薪沒錯那我們要的是他拿出基本的社會責任就是說你應該要跟政府站在一起這一點本其實同意剛剛部長的講法如果說我們是一個正義連線我們是一個好人聯盟的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3084.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3111.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那我們防止詐騙就是守護人民的安全那應該是Meta公司也好Google公司也好LINE公司也好大家都加入這個好人連線我們一起來防止詐騙集團嘛很多東西可以賺錢但是詐騙集團的錢黑心錢絕對不能賺這一點也要讓這些社群媒體平台知道所以目前我再確定一下你覺得他們有沒有跟我們有這樣一致的一個同感好人有沒有越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3113.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3138.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
應該是有 坦白講剛開始我們跟Meta在談判的時候他們事實上相當強硬然後我們一再的勸說其實就如同委員講的這個罰款對他們來講實在是只有一點點那最重要我們就勸說他們說這是他們的社會責任而且就會影響到他的形象對他們公司長期來講如果說上面的頁面全部都是詐騙集團衝刺可能網友可能粉絲他也會流失是 沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3140.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3165.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
最後我來確認一下Ttalk我們有這個王委員很紅現在在Ttalk的影片大家大街小巷人人都會唱但是我們有另外一位王委員講說Ttalk上面會讓青少年白目所以校園要進Ttalk那社群媒體平台剛剛您的報告裡面有講Ttalk也是我們有溝通跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3167.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3183.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個納管的一個平台之一是不是是 這個關於TikTok的納管因為這個TikTok我們對它的疑慮主要有三點第一個是它的資料儲存在哪裡第二點是它的股權是不是主要是中資第三點是對兒少的危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3184.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3200.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那我們這三件事情前兩件事情因為美國跟TikTok有相當嚴重的爭執他們最近在解決這個問題如果順利解決的話有可能這個資料就會儲存在事實上目前資料應該已經是相當一部分儲存在美國了然後再來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3202.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3218.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
股權結構又變成是美國擁有這一點我們還不確定那第三點就是對兒少的危害那這一點就是我們也積極的在跟教育部以及其他單位的溝通因為依照TikTok它本身的規定就是12歲以下的孩童是不准設立帳號的 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3219.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3237.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
然後13歲到15歲的青少年他在TikTok上他開設帳號他應該是受到一定的限制的所以我們現在會朝向說在中小學這個校園裡面利用科技的方法限制這個學童來使用TikTok我們會朝這個方向來 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3238.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3258.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
中小學來你再講一遍你說中小學我們會限制學童利用學校提供的像Wi-Fi這種網路他去使用TikTok這個服務因為他本身本來TikTok他自己就規定所以未來你是希望要教育部在各中小學裡面都要查學生的手機裡面有沒有下載這個APP |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3259.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3283.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
他如果說學童他這個事情那個必須取得社會共識那我們不會去查個別學童的手機我們只是說學校提供的Wi-Fi學校提供的Wi-Fi直接遮蔽對 直接遮蔽直接遮蔽不能用這特定的APP 是是不是 是來 我想要確認一下其實主要這也是我要問部長說認為TikTok該不該禁的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3283.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3296.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
是 因為這個TICO該不該進就是如同我們剛剛講的有主要的但聽你這樣講是我們要等美國我們要等美國的溝通談判完之後我們才要做我們中華民國政府的一個立場勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3297.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3320.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
對 那這個事情就是如同我們剛才講有三個主要的疑慮那這個必須有社會的共識我們當然就是因為這個牽涉到那個言論自由的還有那個媒體的那個自由的那個議題那因為這是一個新興的科技那就是我們目前我們先從我們最確定的部分就是保護兒少的地方開始做那至於說他的資料儲存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3321.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3342.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
在中國當然我們會如果他這資料出現事實上目前TikTok他已經有兩種版本一個是抖音抖音是中國版所以我現在自始自終強調討論的都是TikTok都是TikTok那TikTok現在很多的伺服器設在新加坡總部也設在新加坡這個還是有一些資安疑慮但是並沒有像中國大陸那個資安疑慮那麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3345.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3361.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
再來就是他股權股權這個事情基本上就是美國人也搞不懂台灣我們也搞不懂因為他做得很複雜所以才會有這些爭議部長其實這個追根究柢回來重點我覺得兩個部分就是說我們現在一開始你開宗明義講的AI人工智慧基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3361.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3377.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
現在到底我們在這個會集有沒有辦法能夠順利的三讀通過我想這是朝野大家共同努力的地方第一通過這樣的一個基本法我們能夠來協助因為社群媒體平台上面平台是一回事但是重點是上面的內容是另外一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3378.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3407.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
而內容的關鍵其實如同本席剛剛開宗一直討論下來的不管是詐騙不管是一些不實訊息不管是一些危害兒少的訊息它很有可能都利用AI的技術之後反而能夠更容易生成這是現在社會科技的趨勢所以我們一定要盡速的來防堵那再者你剛剛提到如果說是要因應兒少保護以兒少保護為宗旨來去做相關的APU的話那我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3408.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3435.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
誠摯的要求那應該是要把多數的APP都一起列出來是TikTok如果說認為有疑慮內容有疑慮那有沒有其他的APP那就是針對兒少保護這一塊因為其實有一些交友軟體不可諱言它可能也有非常多兒少的議題甚至國外有做過實驗如果說你是用一個12歲的女性的頭貼跟你講說12歲的話你只要上那個交友軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3437.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3463.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
一天裡面可以收到上百封的交友邀請而這些交友邀請都是成年男子居多是所以換言之兒少保護的議題它就不僅只形陷在內容的部分而是包括一些交友以及包括網路相關的那如果說要一致來做這樣子的一個納管的話以兒少保護來出發點那可能就要請速發部更全盤的一個檢討是 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3464.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3487.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
後續這個會跟教育部一起來溝通然後來列出清單還有衛福部什麼時候可以把這些相關清單給列出來這個相關的清單這個可能要以衛福部跟教育部那邊為主因為兒少保護本來就是衛福部的職責對 但抒發部至少如果說這樣的話我們是不是能夠既然本市已經問到這個議題那你剛剛也提到那我覺得說我們比較積極一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3488.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3512.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
找衛福部找消費部一起開會討論能夠把這樣子的一個因應兒少保護來列出可能不適合這其實就是分級制度嘛其實講白了有一些APP真的你認為是說對於15歲以下的國小國中學童真的有疑慮的話那你可以來去做分級嘛是不是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3514.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3536.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
因為今天是第一次聽到委員我覺得委員這個建議非常好那我們會朝向這個方向發展我們希望說在年底之前我們會先有一個想法然後到時候再請委員多支持好 現在10月那就是兩個月的時間是不是也跟速發部教育部速發部來跟衛福部教育部一起共同來討論是好不好好 謝謝再請相關報告給本席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3559.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3579.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
好那我們現在委員人數已達那我們現在先請教各位在場委員對議事錄有沒有意見沒有意見那這樣議事錄確定謝謝感謝廖先生委員還沒有質詢就先過來來協助來再來我們請第二位質詢的蔡啟昌委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3587.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3596.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
謝謝主席 請速發部林部長來 速發部林部長請委員早安 林部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3598.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3625.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
部長剛剛主席有特別去關心其實跟本席很接近的議題其實就是詐騙是我們持續再繼續把詐騙的議題再往下談剛剛有去提到這個照片的人眼辨識是那現在台灣的名人選定600個是那這600個有沒有主席這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3627.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3654.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
還沒有因為大概是那個詐騙集團不敢主席可能還要再加油因為他還不算600個名人本席覺得這個數字可能600個還是太少因為不管本院的委員或者政府部門其實這些人都一定程度在民眾心目當中或許都會成為詐騙集團有利的這種借人頭的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3656.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3673.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以不只是AI影片的這種合成的辨識更重要的是這個資料庫恐怕600個人我本席一聽就覺得這個數字恐怕明顯不足在台灣名人我相信各個領域裡面隨便抓一抓應該5000個跑不掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3675.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3696.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
是 跟委員報告基本上我們做法是滾動式增加因為之前那個詐騙集團最喜歡的大概就是謝金和黃仁勳那幾個那我們剛開始大概就給他們就設立一個幾百個人的名單我們保護名單後來我們這個名單一定設一旦設好以後詐騙集團發現他沒辦法用仿冒這幾個人他就另外在他們一直找 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3696.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3715.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
然後我們又發現透過網站通報查詢網的機制我們發現有新的這個案例的時候我們就去邀請其他的名人一直加入所以我們這個名單一直在增加好 要增加第二個部分就是說剛剛我看你的報告的時候你有去提到這個目前我們對於網路廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3718.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3739.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我不大懂就是說在抒發部裡面我們現在法規裡面去規定必須要實名制但這個實名制是指的是代理人的實名制那出資者的實名制含不含括在裡面含括不管是出資者或者受益者都不需現在到Meta登廣告必須要出現代理人跟出資者都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3741.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3767.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
META才會讓你上去 是這是一個SOP嘛 現在此刻對 沒問題就是因為我們打詐專法通過以後感謝立法院的那個打詐專法我們就去要求META那他們花了幾個月的時間都已經完成了那之前有一些沒做好的地方我們開罰以後他也都修正了那現在目前如果以過去我們曾經破獲的案件刑事警察局破獲的案件曾經出現代理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3769.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3780.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
出資登記是代理人是那代理人不願意吐蝕是部長你知道這個現象多嗎抱歉 這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3781.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3809.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
請我們那個署長我們目前還沒有接到刑事檢查局我覺得你跟刑事檢查局做一個溝通好不好就是請跟刑事檢查局確認一下除了代理人跟出資人實名制之外在現實的這個依法行政去破獲這些詐騙集團出現有沒有出現說雖然依據現實現行的規定但是那個背後詐騙集團在背後還是逍遙法外的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3810.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3826.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那表示真的是道高一尺魔高一丈所以這個就我們必須要譬如說加重代理人的刑事責任或者怎麼樣讓他不敢輕易變成詐騙集團的人頭或者讓大家知道當詐騙集團的人頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3828.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3850.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個責任是相當重大的這個可能你要再跟刑事大局溝通一下非常同意委員說的基本上我們打詐的策略也可以講說一方面我們是事先防止民眾被詐騙然後在事後我們要想辦法能找到這個壞人把他繩之以法這樣以後詐騙集團就不敢再去做詐騙的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3851.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3868.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那我們這個廣告實名制其實是為了讓後面我們這個讓那個內政部刑事警察局這邊能找到這個壞人的一個預先的動作如果說廣告都是實名制的話到時候我們要找壞人對於那個內政部刑事警察局來講也會方便很多那另外這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3869.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3892.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們最近新聞上我有看到央廣官網遭害竟然是來自內部的內部人過去我們都在講資通安全其實我們都在談包括基礎設施要怎麼防範外部人入侵 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3893.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3919.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以在立法院我们也要讨论政策相修相关的法律这个基础设施那我最近看这个新闻央广这个是广播这个是重要基础设施是没错没错我看了新闻这个府大医院爆内鬼来害各支医院这个重大基础设施另外这个在罢免期间基隆市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3920.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3944.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
裡面民政局裡面自己進入民政系統的資料裡面那這是政府這個也是基礎設施是沒錯所以我們看起來我們要對資通安全的處理是不可以只有防範外部的駭客沒錯對這個內部啊看起來這些案例都發生在最近的期間是那部長你有什麼樣的想法面對內部這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
3947.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
3957.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
要自己內賊啦是他的軌跡該怎麼被處理或者這樣的法令要怎麼去修罰或者會不會處罰太輕等等部長你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
3957.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
3980.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
OK 我們首先來講一下這個央廣的這個事情那個央廣的主管機關其實是文化部但是由於如同委員講的央廣是國家關鍵基礎設施所以它的資安必須由訴發部來負責的然後訴發部在9月底10月初的時候我們接獲這個通報以後馬上就派了資安署的那個專家進駐然後去做檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
3981.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
3997.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
結果據我們的了解就如同委員所講的這個其實不是一個從外面駭客入侵的行為事實上這個犯案的涉及這件事情的那位工程師他本身就負責網站的資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
3997.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4015.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
結果他本身負責網站的資安他又到處去跟人家講說這個陽廣的網站資安有問題我們就覺得很奇怪他本身就是負責人那因為他擁有所有這些帳號他又有這些帳號密碼內部管理都是在他手上所以如果發生這種事情從技術的手段真的很難防 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4016.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4036.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那這個事情就是第一個我們希望說我們必須加強內部的管理然後另外我們也希望說我們在抓到這種犯罪行為的話我們能加重他的處罰這個當然我們也必須跟法務部跟文化部等一起合作看是不是要修改這樣的法規部長 技術面可不可能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4037.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4052.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
基礎設施負責維護的這些管理維護的軌跡是速發部有沒有能力進行用科技的方式進行這些軌跡在特定時間的查證或者檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4053.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4071.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
基本上在網路上做這些事情都會留下各種軌跡現在比較麻煩的是說以這幾個案例來講因為這些犯案的人員他可能本身就是負責掌管那些軌跡的所以他也可以把那些軌跡通通消除掉所以科技上有沒有可能讓他無法消除這個軌跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4073.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4095.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個我們會應該是有一些方法我們盡量讓這些譬如說用備份的方式或者是如果說它去消除這些軌跡的時候我們想辦法提出警示因為這個是基礎設施既然觸發部基礎設施之外的我們就不談但基礎設施內的表示它對國家安全有一定的影響跟重要性那這個應該更嚴謹譬如說這裡面我最擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4099.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4119.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
不只是這樣因為政府擁有每一個這還有你沒有到你可能跟央廣沒有往來你可能跟輔大醫院沒有往來但你不可能跟政府沒有往來是所以你的戶證資料你的健保資料其實這些特定人上網去查詢是實手可得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4120.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4143.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
就以我們現在我們所了解我也當過民政局局長雖然我當的時候電腦還沒有到網際網路還沒有到現在這麼離譜這麼誇張但是這個其實不難嘛所以我認為說特別像這種軌跡就是針對特定基礎設施特別像政府機關誰有權限上去查因為部長這個未來在這個互聯網的時代裡面這個網際網路越行發達現在的AI越行發達 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4149.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4163.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
其實很多資料都可以串接從你的消費行為你的車子的GPS你通過交流到所有的自動付費系統其實我要掌握一個人我只要這個漏洞沒有做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4164.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4180.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
你是全都錄啦沒錯這個老大哥的這個過去電影在告訴大家的這種很抽象的大家認為不可能發生的此刻正在上演嘛所以如果我們沒有辦法用科技的方法因為要你一個一個去查證這個基礎設施太龐大 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4181.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4208.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但如果透過科技的方式讓一定程度的基礎設施它是可以被隨時抽驗被你們抽驗然後抽驗這軌跡是無法消除那這個軌跡無法消除的時候你的抽驗就像國稅單位都會去抽人家的稅來看看他的稅有沒有問題所以一樣的道理好不好部長這個應該要列為很重要的事情在處理那最後一個問題就是說我看看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4210.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4238.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
國家資通安全研究院發表的這個文章裡面去提到說這個中國的這個資料庫有外洩的這個情形那裡面有這個資料庫的標記有一個TW檔案是跟台灣用戶有關 被懷疑那這裡面他有提到說這個新聞稿10月7號資安院的新聞稿裡面提到說民眾在使用抖音 小紅書 微博等中國社群平台這個要特別的謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4240.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4242.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那這個謹慎到底到什麼程度叫謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4244.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4271.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
基本上像抖音 小紅書 微博這個最大的問題是在於它的伺服器設在中國那依照中國政府的法令如果中國政府要提出要求的話所有這些公司都必須把這些資料交出來那像在美國 台灣 日本我們這些民主國家裡面政府是沒有這個權利的可是在中國有這個權利所以我們為什麼會認為說這些中國的這些APP會特別危險應該就是這個原因那是不是可以請我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4272.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4291.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
沒關係因為時間的關係沒關係部長我講結論該什麼叫風險提示我覺得政府有這個責任要把風險提示做好第二個風險提示裡面一定要白話文譬如說我看了這個報告當然這報告可能一般民眾不會去閱讀但這裡面報告它有告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4292.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4315.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
譬如說你的資料透過不同的管道可能被勾串在一起那這勾串在一起所以他就教你說手機譬如說你的位置你的這個Google Map的位置的顯露應該要不要關閉或者怎麼樣所以你應該要有一個淺顯易懂的網路之通安全的宣導或者是讓民眾說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4316.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4337.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
你要做這個事情嘛這是速發布的事情嘛大家會不會用手機啊不知道說你手機啊危險性到底在哪裡完全同意這個是我們努力的方向但是不是寫這種長篇文章啦這個沒人會去看啦好 了解那另外本席最後一個問題我問過了啦我其實覺得像那個最後一張把它秀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4339.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4357.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
像這一家這個我也不知道稱不應該叫叫不叫它叫媒體我也知道你們也去找過來喝過咖啡那像這種真的是很離譜你看這個什麼正式棄用古酒保生死戰拋震撼彈再見了林立這個完全是鬼扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4359.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4383.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
主席也是棒球迷棒球迷看到這個都很生氣生氣啊 真的啊都很生氣 不要說我是指望的會長你用灰色的那個 灰色地帶這沒有發生這些事情嘛你什麼時候叫正式棄用 他現在還在比賽而且前兩天還打了安打 對不對讓樂天可以進入台灣大賽哪有什麼叫正式棄用陳潔篪的手腕已經承受不住林玉平遺憾證實證實什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4385.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4409.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這種都是假的訊息假的標題來騙取流量那上次本席已經質詢過一次你們也去了想想方法啦這不能這樣子搞嘛就你至少你打個問號或者說你可以去疑問的問疑問的想說這可能是有可能發生不是你都是直接了當而且標題粗暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4410.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4428.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
他們利用民主自由言論自由來做這些事情所以應該要去好好的看想一個辦法不可以讓這樣民眾你看那個抱怨下面大家罵得要命這個一定要去處理好不好這也是民怨謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝部長那我請教我們會長有沒有列入我們600人名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4437.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4464.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
立法委員都有所以剛剛會長詢問的本席也是有被列入沒有不過我覺得剛剛我們陳理商委員質詢的一個重點也是我剛剛想要再追問因為如果說現在600人的話台灣2350萬人不到萬分之一所以沒關係您請坐所以可能還是要請訴發布針對曾經有被冒名的這一個名單列出來之後都要提供變成是這個資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4466.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4486.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
讓社群媒體平台就可以用科技的方式就是做阻斷我想這個是我們應該要更積極的作為來 再來請我們第三位許志傑委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4495.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4505.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
部長好 再接著剛才蔡協商委員提到的像這種假訊息那可以把他的帳號禁止掉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4506.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4527.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
OK 帳號禁止掉的話我們有兩種方式第一個就是說我們如果說有法律的話就是有法源依據的話那我們政府就可以通知這些不管是Meta或者Google請他們把這個移除掉那另外還有一個方式是什麼就是像這個Meta Facebook它本身有它的社群守則那它這個社群守則因為它是一個商業機構它事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4529.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4551.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
是不需要法源依據的那如果說我們有提出能有一些那個就是合理的要求的話我們可以跟他溝通剛才那個已經禁掉了嗎是剛才蔡其桑委員問到那個假訊息的那個點5那個已經禁掉了嗎那個就是很討厭就是說他因為他那個在言論自由因為我 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4552.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4568.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就是說這個言論自由範圍的問題這個事情我們實在是台灣作為一個自由民主法治的國家我們雖然對這種行為很不滿意你那邊有沒有AI可以統計這一個塑形不良經常有假訊息你比如說假訊息你是 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4569.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4585.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
一哥你是查詢錯誤那查詢錯誤也許我可以原諒你查詢錯誤但是一次 兩次 三次 四次 五次都是藉著假訊息來增加聲量這個已經變成是惡意的用錯誤資訊去誤導民眾這個司法部還不能處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4591.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4613.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
第一個就是我們用違反社群守則的原因去向Meta投訴但是以這個案例來講的話Meta是認為說他並沒有違反這個社群守則所以比較麻煩假訊息為什麼沒有 這不是要證明或者是說到底要怎麼去溝通假訊息其實最麻煩的事情是在於說由誰來判定訊息的真假因為我們在這個像這個已經是事實了 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4615.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4635.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
剛問的就是說陳傑憲哪有問題那他們還在打球他現在用肯定去說他有問題那很明顯的這個就是跟事實不符那這個假訊息還需要判斷是真是假只要呈上事實的東西就可以確定它是假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4636.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4655.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
對於假訊息的處理我們是認為說假訊訊息的真假不應該由政府來判斷因為這是民主國家裡面一個通常就是一個原則就是政府對於言論自由的保護但是我們的方法我們是希望盡量有一些NGONGO也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4656.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4673.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
速發部也好這個政府要有個單位來看push比如說NGO我們可以push他們來成立或者是怎麼做至少說政府有想法有做法而不是說這個政府他就擺爛位置擺爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4677.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4695.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
對 這個問題就是NGO像說台灣有事實查核中心有一個賣骨盆還有那個假訊息他們NGO跟政府有聯繫政府跟平台Meta他們有聯繫像這個具體的假訊息就可以把它撤銷掉那什麼時候可以做完產 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4696.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4715.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
現在這些事情都有在進行但是比較麻煩的事情是因為這些NGO它的能量太小它每個禮拜能處理的訊息數量很少然後它的處理速度太慢所以我們政府要做的事情就想辦法來幫這些NGO我知道你的意思我是覺得像我之前質詢過的這個詐騙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4717.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4732.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
訊息 是 這個就有可能犯罪了是 沒錯所以你看我在112年113年3月跟我都是後來我們通過這個電子簽章法對不對為什麼要去下架這些詐騙廣告 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4734.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4759.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
他就是很明显就是诈骗没错没错是好很明显的诈骗你今天政府可以出手出手不能出手的有一些好像那个假讯息民间的NGO可以出手政府可以协助去帮他们募资源也好让他们成为一个有利的NGO这个东西我们总是怎么样想办法去帮助台湾要杜绝这种不好的东西 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4759.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4780.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
是 完全同意那詐騙 如果是詐騙的現在已經有法律可以處理了嘛對不對對好 那個四叉貓是四叉貓 你看這個其實還蠻特別的是林玉紅 林北好友是然後跟國民黨許哲斌合作然後去直播給黃國昌看是然後這個李威爾 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4786.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4805.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
用牛皮紙袋裝著鞍土跟空殼送給立院黃國昌直接報警這個吳政軒剛剛那個旗艙委員也有問到他自己內部的人然後又自己內部當駭客所以這全部都是自導自演當然現在黃國昌切割 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4809.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4829.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
但是你們科技部就他們的連續的資料有沒有辦法去查到人家是詐騙集團有詐騙集團的首腦這駭客集團有駭客集團的首腦黃國昌就是駭客集團的首腦你們不要把這個蛛絲馬金農中查出來甚至說他這個賬號以後就把它禁止掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4831.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4860.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
以這個央廣的這個事件來講的話我們抒發部在接到那個央廣通報以後就派人員進去查我們的確查到很多很奇怪的事情就是涉案的人員他自己就開了很多的帳號而且他本身他就是網站的管理人員所以他事實上那個最高權限的那些帳號其實他都有所以你看 你看這一張那個圖裡面他還問說老師好 又有案子可以讓你公審了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4860.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4876.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
他問說有沒有辦法可以協助這是他們裡面的人自己傳出來的你看另外一頁黃國昌的你看林北豪有那一張你可以看這些他自導自演自導自演現在林立宏當時好像被縮壓境界 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4878.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
4892.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
現在不知道到什麼地方去了這個李威爾其實應該也是黃國昌的粉絲為了讓他爆料結果黃國昌直接報警後來這個李威爾被判拘役好像不知道幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
4896.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
4909.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個吳鎮勛這個看起來就是內部的人那其實他們我在想因為他們背後就是其實這都是紅國昌在後面有一個偷拍部隊偷拍艙之外又有一個駭客部隊駭客艙這個我們都沒有辦法從我們的書法部這你們最厲害的你們如果把這個整個連結怎麼樣去把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
4923.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
4952.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
找出來具體的事實是我們速發部在這個事件上我們負責的是科技的部分那我們就想辦法去收集各種的跡證然後迅速的把這個漏洞補下來補起來然後我們把所有這些事實交給內政部的檢調單位還有那個因為央廣是文化部所主管的我的意思就是說你的NGO或者是速發部可以做NGO可以做都好是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
4952.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
4967.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這個許哲斌據說有1000個帳號啦是然後你再來看館長那一張這個館長可以直言說要斬首總統這個網路不能禁掉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
4968.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
4994.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
是 這個就是說像這種事情就是說會由法院或者是檢調那邊他們來主導這個事情那我們出發部最重要做的事情就是執行那我們確定說如果說譬如說法院通知我們的話我們絕對就會配合辦法院已經在辦了嘛這是法院的事嘛斬首總統這種直播是不是已經是事實了這還是言論自由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
4996.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5019.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個還是必須由法院來判斷因為不能直接由速發部因為我們是行政機關而且速發部的所以你們都一直要等到法院最後的定案之後你們才能處理像這個斬首總統這個就直接把他的帳號禁掉就好了是不是可以跟Meta跟這些網路平台溝通說說這個我會問你年輕人如果學怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5020.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5033.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是 那個我們現在行政院有那個國安法跟社會法照理說我們可以用那個國安法跟社會法來進行一些管制不過這個國安法這個你看了真的是很生氣這個都是做派蒙英 年輕人怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5035.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5064.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
这个我们可以处理的就尽快处理你要等到法院搞不好又一年两年我不知道几年了是我们会尽量跟那个行政院其他的部会协同看说需要修法的就修法包含刚刚我们讲的国安法跟社委法等等那希望我们所以总而言之那个部长我觉得我们要有所作为是而怎么样有所作为是不管是政府的作为或者是NGO的作为是但是这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5065.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5089.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
在跟這個平台或者是在做這個相關的溝通的時候你比如說你平台也可以說你現在暫時不能說馬上判斷BAN掉他的那個帳號不然你那個演算法可以降低他的流量嘛是是都至少就是數化部這是國家這個部分最強的一個單位嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5089.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5110.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
是最成一個單位要有所作為要怎麼樣有所作為吧是像這種很明顯的詐騙很明顯的駭客很明顯的說要斬首總統這種人再不能動是那國家就認這些人作亂啊所以我是建議就是說數學部總是 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5112.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5137.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
要有個具體的想法跟做法讓我們知道然後你具體的做法跟平台溝通的怎麼樣至少平台也認為這種我是覺得展嫂總統這一句話很明顯就可以把它禁止掉了還有什麼考量的是 這個應該是已經違反了他們的社群守護這個其實現在還在啊什麼時候可以把它禁止掉我們會盡快去去跟Meta溝通是在Meta上面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5140.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5169.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
YouTube上面那應該要去跟Google溝通其實你們就是我的意思就是說像這一種言論的那塑化部的敏感度應該要高一點那塑化部跟相關的單位的聯繫應該要快一點強一點那處理的具體的行動也讓我們比較快能夠看得到是 謝謝我看了這個你會不會生氣嗎會啊 懂人會啊對啊 看了真的是很生氣哪有這一種人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5171.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5180.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這我們還不能處理這請速發部跟我們徐委員我們盡快能夠找出那個方法然後告訴我們結果這樣好不好好謝謝好接下來請陳樹越委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5201.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5202.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
謝謝主席 請主席邀請部長來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5209.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5234.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
委員早安林部長早我想今天很多委員都在關心這個央廣就是被駭客入侵那首頁被置換為這個五星旗的這個事件然後由這個事件所衍生出來的這個幕後這個真的是非常骯髒齷齪的一面讓我們覺得真的是引起社會的一個嘩然那另外就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5236.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5265.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
就是說這個事件就是爆發出這個某立委就是利用這個駭客當作義工去就是入侵政府的機關然後也入侵這個戶政的一個資料去肉搜就是對於在網路上發表對他不利言論的人然後收集他的個資之後來公開所以這兩個事件顯示出我們的這個政府的治安真的是非常的薄弱不只是破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5267.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5291.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這麼輕易的這應該是人安不是資安其實不是技術上出了問題是人出了問題是人出了問題是那戶政的部分如果說中廣這個央廣央廣這個有可能是人安因為它是內部的員工可是戶政系統那個部長你認為這個也是人安嗎這不是外部入侵的嗎戶政系統的這個事情我們請那個資安署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5292.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5310.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
是 謝謝委員 我想附贈系統當然是有一些資料因為當然他在房屋上面有一些小小的這些問題不過我想附贈部分這幾年因為已給這個他的原來執行中心在做處理所以在附近系統方面的這些治安其實已經加強非常多 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5311.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5330.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
是 那我們也要就由這兩件事件去檢討然後要怎樣去加強這個防護嘛我不管說這個護證系統目前你說移交給哪個單位在主管可是整個這個就是資訊安全的一個系統的一個防護我想我們速發部也是應該有責任是 沒錯可以協助跟指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5331.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5349.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
沒錯 如同我剛才在業務報告裡面有講我們是從事前事中事後的防護我們在資安署以及資安院我們都設置了各種機制就是盡量來把政府的資安把它加強把各種破洞把它堵住 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5352.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5370.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
剛剛當然就是說資安的話資安的破口可能就是系統軟體的一個加強剛剛部長提到說你把它定位為說這個是人安以陽廣的事情來講應該是人安人安的話這可能就更防不勝防了 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5370.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5392.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
是 沒錯 那這個因為央廣的主管機關是文化部但是因為央廣屬於國家關鍵基礎設施所以它的資安是由速發部來監管的所以我們接到那時候接到這個央廣的通報以後我們馬上派專家去進駐然後進駐以後我們就去查查了以後發覺說其實都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5393.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5417.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
应该我们的严判就是那个涉案的人员他本身就是这个网管的人员他本身就有最高权限的账户他就用这些账户去开很多的破口做了很多的事情如果说针对这一种明明他就是主管的这样子的一个权限的人还故意去做违法的一个事情那我们在这个刑责上是不是可以跟他加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5417.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5425.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
是 這個當然是說中長期來講的話我們可能要透過修法來加那個目前的行刑者是怎麼樣抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5428.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5448.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
是 謝謝委員 目前有關電腦的判罪是在刑法裡面的359條裡面有提到是說 假設這個取得相關的系統或是刪除或是一些更換的話 是換了電腦的這個相關的一些使用罪 那這個罪在刑法359條裡面有相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5449.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5465.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
是 我想這個是非常嚴重而且非常重要的一部分因為資安的話我們可以透過軟體科技那是硬體的部分的一個加強可是人安的話你要怎樣去落實管理尤其面對我們現在每個機關因為就是資訊化的一個時代我們過去在委員會也討論到每一個機關有關資訊長資安長的一個設立的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5475.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5494.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那如果說未來這個有關資訊掌管資訊安全的人反而變成是一個內部犯罪的人那我覺得這個是一個非常嚴重的一個問題我們對資安人員都有特殊的查核確定是他的安全性那當然是這些事件可能還是出現了一些破口我們以後會改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5495.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5517.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那就是說希望針對這個部分我們要再去思考怎樣去防範那接下來我要講的就是說對於就是內部的這個作為我們要加強之外我們對外部的一個駭客的一個罔工因為今天國安局的一個誘報告裡面他也有提到我國政府網路每日遭受到罔工就是高達280萬次 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5519.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5540.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那這個供給它又是鎖定在我國的政府機關還有關鍵基礎設施以及產業供應鏈這幾個部分所以我們在面對這個中共它是發動國家層級的一個網供那這樣子的話我們有沒有能力去應付跟防護 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5541.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5561.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
OK 在防護這方面我們的政策是希望說從兩方面來著手一方面是政府政府我們的資安署 資安院我們要加強我們的能量讓政府有更大的能力去保護我們的政府還有我們的關鍵基礎設施另外我們也會第二個政策就是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5562.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5583.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
在台灣有一個非常健康的資安產業事實上台灣的軟體產業不是特別強但是台灣的資安軟體產業是相當強的包含委員您所提到的產業供應鏈我們現在就是跟Semi還有台積電我們就推出了一個Semi 1187的標準就是希望說我們做資安的就是在整個產業鏈除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5585.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5614.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
保護好我們的台積電以外台積電的上游下游我們都要把它保護好避免駭客利用台積電的上游或下游作為跳板去攻擊台積電這個是整個那個策略上或者是我們Semi-1187的概念而這本身其實也是一個很大的商機我們希望台灣的資安產業都能掌握到這個商機在保護好我們的那個產業供應鏈保護好我們的政府或民間公司之外他們也能賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5617.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5633.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
對於有關網路資訊安全非常重要所以針對屬於自動安全責任等級的A級包括護證系統的資料或者是廣電傳播設施這個部分我們希望速發部要去加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5634.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5661.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那另外我剛有提到就是說面對境外的一個攻擊他不只是攻擊政府機關關鍵基礎設施甚至這個傳統就是傳產就是產業產業的這個區域這個領域他們也是他們的攻擊的一個目標那我們也看到不管是中小企業或者是甚至農業因為現在農業都會利用這個智慧農業就是透過手機的一個遠端遙控 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5662.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5679.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
去做一個生產的一個控制那我們也有發現就是有被駭客入侵然後造成這個容有損失的這樣子一個案例所以我們就是說希望在這個部分我們抒發部也要就是多加的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5680.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5694.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
給予一些相關的一個協助那我也看到我們的應該是蔡署長那日前在接受金週刊的時候專訪的時候也有提到就是說針對民間企業的一個資安政府會主動性在提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5695.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5712.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那這個部分不曉得部長是不是部長可以了解一下可以回答一下就是說政府的主動性大概會做到什麼樣的程度未來就是說在民間企業中小企業甚至農業我們速發部會扮演什麼樣的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5713.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5729.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
具體的計畫其實這些中小企業的那個資安或者是農業的這個資安最大的問題是說通常在這個中小企業他並沒有專業的資訊人員他更不用講說專業的資安人員了所以他對自己的保護當然是沒辦法做到很好可能財力不夠或人才不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5730.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5746.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
對 那我們覺得最好的方法就是鼓勵中小企業盡量使用雲端的服務因為雲端的服務就是雲端的公司它去 譬如說我們用E-mail來講以前那個各個中小企業各自設立那個E-mail Server的時候E-mail伺服器的時候常常會受到駭客的攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5747.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5758.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
但是現在國人大家都很習慣用像Gmail這種雲端的這種網路這個Email服務的時候這個資安就是會由Google或者是台灣的這些資訊業者他去負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5762.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5780.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以這個就可以把這個資安防護的責任就是轉移到這個提供雲端服務或者是標準化產品的這些廠商那這也是契合我們現在速發部一個政策就是鼓勵台灣的軟體產業盡量去發展產品而不是做一個專案因為如果說做成標準化產品的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5781.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5806.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那就由這些標準化軟體產品的公司他負責把他的產品的資安做好如果他做不好的話他自然會喪失他的訂單所以他有他的Motivation他會想辦法把這個事情做好這也是我們另外講的一個我們的產業的策略就是我們希望利用民間資安產業的力量去守護台灣不管是政府或者民間企業的資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5806.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5834.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
是 我想現在是一個網路資訊一個發展非常迅速的一個時代所以有關治安的一個防護不管是政府機關或者是關鍵基礎設施甚至民間企業還有這個農業真的每一個行業真的是都需要我們這個速發部來給予大力的一個協助所以也希望部長在這方面要多加的一個就是擔起這個重責大任是 謝謝委員的勉勵謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5841.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5862.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好 接下來再請徐富奎委員質詢那我們剛剛也已經有宣告10點半左右休息所以我們到魯明哲委員質詢完畢之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝謝謝主席 有請林部長好 來 林部長請居委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
5870.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
5894.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
部長早安 部長我想這個台灣我們這個在國際的這個通訊上面 是 海嵐是一個很重要的一個通訊的一個管道那因為這兩三年以來我們也發現很多起了一個海嵐遭到惡意破壞的一個狀況 是 那甚至我們現在在建置的一些海嵐的部分也有面臨一些很大的一個問題是 部長那我想我們最近發現這個今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
5896.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
5922.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我們通往香港的這個EAC1號海欄在8月22號發生部分的一個斷線通往東南亞的一個EAC2號的海底電纜在9月1號也發生斷線那我想這個對於整個我們這個對外的國際的這個網絡已經不只是一個通訊的問題甚至造成一個國安的一個很大的一個防護的一個危機那根據我們現在目前海欄地圖的網站我們24條裡面已經有9條發生斷裂 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
5925.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
5940.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那臺灣平均這個三年裡面一年平均有七八條斷纜事件那甚至這個最離譜的我們中國一艘全輪鴻泰五十八號還刻意勾斷了我們這個臺澎三號的電纜 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
5942.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
5965.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
後來船長還被判刑了這個三年那我想這是一個我們也這個很要求我們的我們相關的執法單位要這個正式這樣的一個問題啦那針對這樣的一個狀況那我想因為剛剛你的報告裡面有特別提到我們台馬4號跟台金棚這兩個部分是明年6月要完工那未來會不會納入我們一個國安等級的一個風險評估會是 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
5968.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
5994.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
被納入到國家冠軍技術設施裡頭現在所有的國內海欄跟國際海欄都已經納入那現在只要它新建的海欄完成以後我們都會納入 是也跟委員補充報告一下就是說之前網傳說台灣有9條海欄同時斷掉事實上那並不是真實的狀況那我們現在台灣對外的14條國際海欄裡面有3條有故障的狀況但是應該會在最近幾個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
5996.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6003.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們都在掌握狀況 而且我們把資訊也充分接入在本部的官網中也充分接入 目前國際有兩條 一條是國內的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6006.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6025.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
部長我想這個海底電纜的問題我想也不是只有速發部的問題我也在跟交通部我們航港局也提過很多次尤其針對現在的所謂的一個權益輪的問題尤其在我們這個沿海的部分他們有些掛了一個中國或是香港公司的一個國籍甚至用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6026.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6048.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
非洲或其他的一個國家的一個偽裝我想這個是一個用一個灰色的一個行動的一個模式其實對我們這個整個國家的通訊安全跟國安的問題是一個很大的一個潛在的一個威脅我想我們未來必須要跨部會來做這樣的一個監控跟一個處理這個部分有沒有跟交通部有做一個聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6049.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6074.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
是 我們一直有跟交通部以及海委會等做聯繫因為國際海欄事實上比較麻煩一些因為國際海欄的擁有者跟經營者通常是一些國際的公司並不是台灣的公司而且譬如說上次我們講說海欄有一些故障的問題其實斷網的那個是並不是發生在台灣跟菲律賓之間而是在菲律賓到新加坡之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6075.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6101.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那臺灣因為有很多的遊戲的使用者那些玩遊戲的人他用的那些遊戲他的伺服器在新加坡所以當菲律賓到新加坡中間這段海嵐發生故障的時候雖然他網路還會通這個會照到其他的國家因為網際網路的特性他會自動找尋一條路徑連到新加坡但是聯網的速度就變慢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6101.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6119.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以像這種我現在講這件事情就是說這個事情其實是相當複雜而且是相當國際化那我們不單單需要跟台灣的交通部以及海委會一起合作我們還必須跟國際上其他的國家尤其是友好的民主國家我們必須一起合作這個機制有建立了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6121.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6134.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
是 報告委員確實如此我們其實跟有一些友好的國家常常在他們的建議機關裡在談這件事情不管是歐洲或是美國 日本大家都在談這件事情那這件事情其實是一個國際上的議題而且國際上也非常重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6136.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6156.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那我想剛剛陳榮部長講的其實我們服務部應該也要組著建立一個全國通信任性的一個演練的一個機制是因應到這樣的一個問題危機發生的時候沒錯用最快的速度去做處理那甚至在國際上也要做一個國際性的一個交流的一個是隨時一個掌控的一個機制是部長這部分應該沒有問題了沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6158.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6182.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們現在就來做 我們會努力好 謝謝那剛剛部長有提到這個零三任之後的四大主張包含產業 資安 打債跟數位政府那但是我記得我一早在從去年一直到委員會的時候我比較擔心你們的這個人力的問題是那到目前編制跟我們的縣議員人力大概有落差多少我們抱歉我們可不可以請那個人事處處長說明好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6191.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6210.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
跟委員報告我們部裡面的那個部分現在到今年九月三十大概那個道指的那個原額比例是大概百分之八十三點那個三九 以上報告現在編制跟縣委缺額多少人缺額 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6214.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6241.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
以本部的部分那個缺額的部分是47人47人部長我想剛剛我們知道你們有很多的事情要做但是沒有人做不了事情沒錯完全同意好那尤其你們又是中央的主管機關那我們有地方政府有縣市政府也有鄉鎮公所更有中央派出在地方很多的相對的一些機關他們的資安人力更是我們擔心的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6242.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6261.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
沒錯 我們掌握到的資料是全國的政府機關的那個資安人力的編制應該是大約1500人但是實際上只有1300人左右我們的缺額大約有200人那為什麼會造成這種狀況是因為民間資安產業開出的薪水坦白講是比我們政府要高很多那我們這基本上我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6262.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6286.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
政府是從三方面來改善這個狀況第一個是我們想辦法提高我們這個在政府的不管是資安人員或者是專業的資訊人員的薪資我們想辦法修改各種法令調整做法提高他們的薪資另外一個我們就是攬財那我們現在也在高考的裡面加上資安人員人才的 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6291.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6306.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
另外就是希望從外面能找到更多的人才另外就是育才育才的意思就是說我們鼓勵現有的公務人員他去進行進修我們提供各種課程希望他能轉職成資安方面的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6307.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6336.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
不然恐怕還是必須要有更多的誘因啦是不是 你的薪水輸給人家的民間輸給人家一個月的薪水搞不好就是你們一年的薪水不一定啦那所以面對我們台灣面對這樣一個中國大陸的威脅還有駭客攻擊這麼頻繁我們真的要做好這個人才的準備啦那尤其這個無孔不入的攻擊的部分不會只有鎖定中央政府嗎不然剛剛蘇院委員講的民間的產業不然我們看到很多的一些機關的防護上 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6337.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6359.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
不堪一擊 這我們很擔心是 因為人才實在太稀缺了那從另外一方面來講我們很多政府的人才被挖角到民間企業所以這個民間的資安廠商他事實上有更好的能量所以在某方面來講我們也覺得說樂觀其成那我們希望由民間的這些資安產業多幫我們政府來守護台灣政府的資安以及民間產業的資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6361.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6379.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
部長那最後一個我還是要幫我們這個我們的屏東的鄉親來請命是這個我們現在的這個通訊的部分大家都號稱這個5G的涵蓋率97%是偏鄉有95%但事實上麻煩部長到屏東來走看看連4G都沒有 3G都沒有點個5訊號真的很不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6380.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6399.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這我也已經跟我們中華電信的董事長也反映過這個問題那當然目前你們在屬於評估一個覆蓋率的時候我想應該也要針對上網的品質跟所謂的一個通訊的一個品質做一個基準的處理啦不能只是帳面上的97%啦根本都失真了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6399.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6421.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
是本來我們的預算被刪除以後我們就做了這種監測的就是說就如同委員講的一定要到現場去實測說這個到底覆蓋率到底好不好那通訊品質怎麼樣那我們現在很感謝那個立法院給我們追加預算我們有這個追加預算以後我們就會去進行這個場地的實測確定說這個訊號不但有而且這個品質要好 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6421.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6438.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那有沒有受到預算影響這個我們這個5G基地台的建置部分有沒有今年會持續進行嗎會持續進行那我想因為這個5G的費用我們很多鄉親也在反映這個5G吃到飽要花一三九九但是花那麼多錢沒有這樣的一個服務品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6439.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6462.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那4G的比4G這個5599跟699翻倍那問題是對我們來講我們一定要趕快去針對尤其偏鄉來講尤其我們在救難救災的時候通訊不通是要救災的這很大的一個問題啊所以我想未來整個這個訊號的建置接下來建置還是要請數位部來加強好不好是好謝謝我們會努力謝謝委員的勉勵謝謝好謝謝來接下來請魯明哲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6480.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6486.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好 謝謝主席有請我們數位部我們林部長來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6490.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6515.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
各位委員早安部長好你們現在是要數位部還是書發部簡稱我們現在叫數位發展部簡稱書發部因為我們要強調發展就是現在要全稱就對了沒有 我們是書發部因為數位的話但是其實這都不重要內容物比較重要首先我們直接看一下這有一個事情我說你好或者你自己說你好都不太客觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6516.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6540.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那事實上在大概這過去19年20年來從2005年開始在日本早稻田大學對於國際數位政府的開始有一個評比有個評比特別有注意到數位這個我們數發部在2002年8月27號成立8月我記得那時候成立的時候我知道在交通委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6541.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6563.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
哇 其實我是很驚豔也很驚嚇不到三個月之後就看到我們這個當時的速發部舉行記者會真的有慶功宴等級所以我們得到了早稻農研大學當年2022年社會政府評比全台灣打國際盃全球第九名 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6564.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6588.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
全球第九名啊 這不簡單啊我們蘇維布萊不光是在媒體開記者會也在內部做公告嘛那我們看看公告主要的一個內容他評比的這個部分對台灣的成績呢第一個 台灣得到當時評比的國際全球的第九名不簡單啦 不簡單第二個呢 在亞洲評比呢我們鄰居嘛 因為環境比較類似嘛在亞洲第三名啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6590.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6608.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那其中十個指標有十項指標他評比的成績有十項指標十項指標我們當時就有五項他一半五項能夠擠進前十但是其實我們聽到這個包括他真的覺得很驚艷但是也很驚嚇的原因就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6609.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6619.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
哇 成立兩個月就能夠做這麼多事嗎那所以我們是 你覺得這個當時的成績你還沒來啦那你知道這件事情的話也是一個驕傲吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6621.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6649.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
應該是但是這種評比因為雖然看起來很客觀但是評比的項目這種事情其實也是可以說是蠻主觀的因為看他評比的項目是什麼當天的一個結論因為背景就是當年的速發部成立兩個多月但是當天的記者會的一個結論你們自己說自己就是顯見台灣基礎環境設備數位衛民服務跟我們數位政府轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6650.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6679.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
努力有成 效果卓著這是當天的一個基礎那對我來講OK 數位部才剛成立它的元年那我相信在這麼紮實的基礎你知道嗎 當地基打好那樓層可以蓋得很穩很高那接下來你們元年一年二年大樓慢慢蓋好那現在到底蓋得怎麼樣經歷唐鳳部長一年九個月跟我們黃部長一年四個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6680.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6696.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
你才剛上任我們再談一些因為不好意思你擔任這個首長過去跟未來你都必須要去做負責兼顧來做說明那在這樣的一個基礎之下到底蓋了幾年的結果如何滿不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6698.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6717.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
坦白的跟委員報告其實當初數位發展部成立的時候有三個主要的任務第一個就是數位產業所以我們有數位產業署第二個是資安任性所以我們有資安署跟任性司然後再來是數位政府所以我們有像資料司 像數位政府司等等可是我們數位發展部一成立以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6718.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6747.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
發生了一件事情是什麼 詐騙橫行所以我們速發部把這個第三個本來應該放在那個數位政府上面的很多的能量跟資源都跑去做打詐了所以現在我們在打詐算是說初步不敢說有太大的不敢說吹牛說我們已經都進決但是有一些成果以後我們今年希望說接下來我們把一些資源跟能量把它擺回去做這個數位政府我的天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6748.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6768.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為我們這麼多的委員通過你的預算你每年的預算數位政府的照擺每年增加好不好刪掉了也幫你大致上補回去了然後你告訴我抱歉這份有錢但是我們的人力心力沒有放在這上面我希望你這樣的解釋你自己可以理解但是民眾不理解我們覺得2022年的時候跟你無關但我們覺得基礎很踏實 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6774.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6799.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
在這個基礎之下經過了一年兩年成就如何呢我們覺得應該大樓慢慢穩穩的上上蓋應該業績蒸蒸日上確實我也看到你們做到了從2018年我們有那當時國發會宣布也是第九名到你們2022年宣布第九名就是十米以內你們才公告了第九名之後當年數位部成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6800.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6821.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
成了第一年在良好的基礎之下打拼努力單獨預算幾百億給你們了拼了一年蒸蒸日上數字往上走退了六名再拼第一年這個人還沒有朝期腳步沒站穩到了去年2024年第20名 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6827.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6847.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
你的感覺怎麼樣你說說看因為第20名的部分你有參與部分那是為什麼你5月20號跟黃部長一起來的嗎你是次長我不要講你要負責了但你應該了解2024年由蒸蒸日上到這麼好的成績從第9名退不到第20名主要原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6849.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6870.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
如同我剛剛在跟委員說明的這個我本身我也認為說這個地方我們的投入的那個心力不夠所以我剛剛在稍早我在那個業務報告裡面我講說我跟除了延續之前我們黃部長的三大三支箭之外我們今年也會把這個數位政府納入我們的主要施政目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6871.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6887.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好 這個林部長你說得這麼老實就是黃部長跟唐鳳部長這方面數位政府做得不夠好大概邏輯就是這樣因為那你希望你能夠做得更好為什麼呢2022年你們講的基礎這麼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6890.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
6906.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
第九名大家希望能夠繼續的第八名 第七名能夠穩健的成長我們因為站在各部會的這種資安單位 數位單位都可以拿下第九名 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
6908.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
6925.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
2018年數位部都還沒成立嘛他也拿到第九名大家當然期待你有一個部長這麼多部會這麼多廳在這裡你的成績大家這樣期待是基本的啦你要越來越好結果呢在這麼好的基礎之下你應該可以重重隆隆你知道嗎游刃有餘啊謝謝謝謝結果你搞了兩年你弄到連滾帶爬 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
6933.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
6942.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我覺得在這樣的下去 這個趨勢12月要公布2025的我不要說把你們看衰了2025你大概預估怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
6944.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
6969.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
還蠻想這種預估這是陷阱題吧我講太低也不行對不對我們衛生預算在炒這邊炒了半天價我覺得很衰也被你搞一個大罷免什麼我現在在問你說錢要怎麼用拿到手上就說抱歉以前錢都編了這部分做得不好那今年會不會做得很好不清楚我覺得因為畢竟我們這個質詢大家都在聽是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
6972.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
6994.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那我們再看看 國際的 亞洲的排序好吧 就近的 我們鄰居要檢討一下10月10號 也不才過幾天嘛我們總統 經濟生產率 四小龍之冠嘛那種驕傲 驕傲真的才 大家感覺到驕傲嘛結果 我們是IT之國 科技之島 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
6996.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7017.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們從2020到2024我告訴你 我們的鄰居 新加坡變第一名了第四名變第一名南韓第七名變第五名日本第九名到成長日本第十名成長日本沒有成長那泰國從22名到第18名我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7019.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7038.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
台灣從第九名跌了十一名到第二十名這是我們亞洲的一個類似環境的一個鄰居我覺得這個部分值得檢討而且很不應該如果再這樣的下去我覺得數位發展部在我的心中變成數位大退步 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7039.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7063.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
每次看到你這樣的一個成績在我們講的時候是整篇什麼都好然後到時候這到底是什麼問題再問你數位政府有這麼多類別他評比十大指標你知道是哪十大指標嗎坦白講我也不知道我早上看才知道但是你要參加一個評比如果你都不知道我跟你講應該是我們主動參加是他們把我們抓去參加的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7064.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7083.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以你其實也不願意參加所以你也不參加不知道人家跑的是百米還是馬拉松比賽我們整個部隊我們的員工其實根本沒有準備我的天啊我是覺得這樣的部長因為你才剛接一個多月今天我們談這些事我覺得是期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7084.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7102.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
多於苛責是 謝謝我也覺得你們要針對於評比的部分你說你無所謂但是我們又是地球村你不看其他國家都在看讓台灣在這種亞洲四小龍之冠這種驕傲還沒有來其他人還有 你看天啊 天天退步 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7104.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7120.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我跟你講2022年當年的交往第九名基礎打好了其中有五項指標進入前十名就是前面五項第一個是現象育有與浮沫第二個是基礎建設那我都不要念了到2023年 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7123.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7131.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
四項不見了當年的優勢四個不見了所謂不見就沒有排到前十名了不知道到哪一名去了請問那個政府資訊長的活躍度跟參加國際會議有關嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7137.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7158.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這裡有第四項政府資訊長活躍度是指的是什麼事情這個好像很抽象是跟參加國際會議有關還是這個很抽象所以你要問是不是要了解找到田因為我沒有去那邊念過書因為我們現在預算那個出國預算大幅被刪減所以這個可能會有些影響大幅刪減但是有一個小問題2024年預算刪減了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7163.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7185.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我在講你2024年的成績2024年升級了沒有部長你不要學這壞的啦我們現在評比的成績只到去年2024年今年2025年有三預算的問題你再跟我扯這個這樣就沒有意思了我就覺得有點莫名其妙了我站好沒有三預算之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7186.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7202.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你看你2024年所有當時兩年的優勢全部跳到10名以外最後我只舉一個例子什麼叫優勢那你說這中間網路硬體網路硬體的一個評比我們本來剛剛講的我們本來是優勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7204.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7231.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
第二項第五名國際第五名怎麼會不見呢是不是因為4G轉5G這種出了問題我不知道我覺得你們要去找出問題有些搞不好是NCC的有些是行政院的那都不一定最後我要拜託你你今年3月24號才說的各位所有的國民恭喜大家我們數位部我的一政府已經幫大家結合2700項的服務一戰時這記者會來開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7235.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7262.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
大家都很開心啊終於可以點一下一個窗口一次購主結果呢 審計部的今年的一個資料出來了 我沒請教你到4月23號你的點進去啊根本連接不到連接錯誤或者連接失效的你所謂的變名措施就是剛剛找到點的一個你的名字不見了數位的一個服務不見了你們這個要不要改善啊要不要改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7263.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7278.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
報告委員因為審計部的報告是說我們有一半的這個服務它不是線上的那因為其實我們把線上的跟零貴的都一起放在這個網站讓所有的同仁所有的那個民眾都可以看到線上的跟這個零貴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7279.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7305.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
至於說有一些是連結不到的因為省醫部它的連結方式你們這種科技技術應該每一天可以去檢查哪些都不見了跳出來HDP什麼404還什麼我忘了反正就這樣怎麼會發生這樣的一個事情尤其是我們當時的次長接任部長之後他開的記者會民眾只要有一個網站何況如果有很多網站都這樣了現在都改善完畢了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7307.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7322.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟委員報告因為審計部他去連結的方式會被機關認為他是駭客在攻擊因為他一次就是大量去連結一些機關所以你覺得是審計部有問題嗎我們會去跟審計部討論這件事情你要跟審計部研究是不是如果說網站連結的部分我們自己還是會有一些精進的計畫好啦 我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7330.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7346.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
網頁連結錯誤失效從你這邊超連結過去就是你沒有檢查好就不對這趕快去改善如果是書面 人家不方便是另外一回事所以我覺得這個部分我們希望能夠積極改善好不好 部長好 沒問題 我們會積極改善好 謝謝好 謝謝盧銘哲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7351.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7376.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我想官員可能回答的時候還要更精準因為剛剛官員就要回答說審計部在查詢的時候被認定為駭客那是在質疑審計部嗎還是有什麼樣的狀況我想政府是一體的那另外就剛剛盧明哲委員這邊的一個質詢我想在2022年速發布的新聞稿還講說台灣數位政府推動成效獲得國際肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7377.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7400.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那時候第九名獲得國際肯定那不要說只講好的那如果說這個評比客觀有20名我們該檢討要檢討2022年2023年2024年都是全面執政的政府的時候預算我想都沒有被刪減但是有預算卻沒有這個排名卻一直往後倒退我想這也是客觀事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7401.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7414.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們也期待速發部真的是痛定思痛好好檢討而不是在這邊只是這個答詢的時候來成一時口舌之快好不好來我們休息十分鐘十分鐘之後我們繼續開會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7430.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7433.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7457.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7459.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7488.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7497.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7512.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7520.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7538.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7538.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7568.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7575.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7591.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7591.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7609.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7620.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7628.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7636.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7652.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7666.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7669.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7679.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7709.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7710.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7751.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7754.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7763.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7768.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7783.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7791.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
謝謝大家收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7801.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7826.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
謝謝大家的收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7831.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7852.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7860.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7877.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7887.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7890.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7907.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7928.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7937.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7938.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7973.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
7976.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8021.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8032.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
好現在繼續開會我們接下來請昨天獲得總統已經認定要提名的我們何欣辰委員來請發言謝謝洪昭偉那我們是不是請部長來部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8045.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8073.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
謝謝 首先要恭喜次長從次長 對不起 部長你是從次長升任為部長我要這樣子講 要恭喜謝謝但是我想最重要的是國人最關心的詐騙的問題那剛剛在你的業務報告裡面也有提到這個也是我們的業務重點是 當然我們也投入了編列了很多的預算資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8074.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8083.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那我在疫情之後就是數位化的年代裡面詐騙開始盛行的時候我就開始從20235月20243月20246月202410月202411月20254月20256月 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8092.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8102.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
每一個會期一定都緊追著我們不管是修法或提案跟質詢我們的打炸的成效如何所以2023年5月 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8105.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8128.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
部長也知道那時候我們有提案修正打炸的三法不管是各自法刑法等等 非常感謝都有提高罰則嘛那20243月我們那時候有一個電子簽章的修法所以呢我記得在那個修法除了我們有共同的來交換意見之外那電子簽章法也確實修正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8130.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8142.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
還有呢我們當時大力宣傳的那個簡訊那個所謂的專屬的簡訊那現在我看看中央跟地方很多的單位也都在用我們政府專屬的一個簡訊那2024的這個6月 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8149.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8165.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
當時候我們要求要納管所謂的第三方支付因為那時候太多的詐騙集團運用的第三方支付作為洗錢也好或者是支付也好等等的詐騙的工具所以那時候我們有要求要落實源頭管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8166.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8189.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那第三方支付現在也正式的有管理了那我們希望接著要問的是管理的成效等一下再給我回答2024年10月當時發現台中的詐騙數全國最高我也要求要跨部會正式那速發部要嚴防那時候要開學了已經開學了每次的開學都有學生還有各式各樣新型的詐騙的手法2024年11月我們要求全面落實廣告實名制 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8197.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8218.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個部分我們雖然開始了我當時認為應該要全面上路所有的平台2025年4月LINE的帳號開始應該是說國人被盜用非常的猖狂很多的名人也被盜用甚至被詐騙所以我們也希望速發部可以協助及時停號這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8221.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8243.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
2025 6月又來了我們除了Meta這個FB IG還有這個其他的平台之外翠在那時候開始成立一個新興的平台那這個平台我們也發現它又變成詐騙的溫床所以我們要求要納管實名制開始要從源頭來阻絕詐騙的粉磚 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8248.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8264.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
其实我念了这么多最重要是刚开始的一句话最关心国人最关心的是有没有成效有没有成效所以我看了一下这个数据是从你们数位发展部的这个通报系统找到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8265.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8280.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
不管是8月31號到9月6號到現在9月28號到10月4號這兩個比較其實都是數字遊戲啦部長我不知道你看得懂不懂啊因為就我的解讀啊這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8283.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8293.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
詐騙廣告的數量其實沒有減少可是在你們的寫法裡面這兩邊比較起來8月31號到9月6號的你會告訴我因為這個詐騙數有上升那所以怎樣可是到了9月28號的10月4號的這一週的報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8304.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8326.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我看的數字是差不多啦但是呢在你們下面的說明說有下降有下降有下降所以國人的感受深不深以我走訪基層大家對於這些數字沒有感受啊感受不深啊就是說到底政府打詐的成效有好過沒好過部長你自己說咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8329.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8342.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
謝謝首先要感謝委員過去這一年多以來的督促與支持事實上剛剛委員講的那些各方面的事情我們其實在我們一起的努力之下應該都有做到大部分都已經做到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8343.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8364.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那我想一定會有一些成效那關於這個報告的確這個我們這樣子顯示因為都是跟上一週比較週跟週比較這個比較不清楚那我們之前之所以沒辦法跟去年我們通常是說那個跟去年同一時期比較那一個原因就是因為網站通報查詢網上線剛好到今年的9月30號剛好滿一週年 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8365.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8389.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以接下来我们其实应该是可以改变我们的报告方式就是我们跟去年同一个时期这样比这样比较长时间的去比可能对国人的感觉会比较明显那依照我们这边的那个统计数字来讲的话我们现在跟一年前来比的话应该已经是大幅下降了是所以这个地方我们在报告的形式上我们会在改善当然我们实际上的作为也要改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8390.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8416.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
第一個就數字上來看讓人家無感那我們怎麼改進我們怎麼跟國人報告讓國人有感說政府的打詐是有成效的這第一個我覺得表述的方式要讓人有感第二個這個數字的解讀我覺得很重要因為我們不管是跟一年前比較或者是跟上個月比較或者是跟上個禮拜比較我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8417.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8420.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
比較是一種手法但是更重要的是要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8422.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8447.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
人民有感覺說這個打炸是有成效的不然我們在坊間現在我看每個委員關心的也是速發部對於打炸的成效到底有沒有大家都還是一個問號有啦 那個委員我們現在在那個網路上在Facebook上很少在看到有仿冒黃仁勳那個張忠謀還有那個謝金河這個應該都已經很少見了嘛手法改變啦是啊 沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8448.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8456.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
不是诈骗只是手法改变我们也要跟着与时俱进来打诈如果你认为有的话那我就再接下来下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8458.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8481.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
行政院政府的公共政策網路參與平台現在就有一個提案制定數位打造法一起打造更安全的網路環境然後到目前為止已經超過8000個公民連署我跟你講這個之所以重要是在於它8月28號檢核這個提案是可以的到8月29號就 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8483.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8498.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
通过达到门槛是那这个联署门槛是多少五千是对吧是所以他一天之内就五千人以上五千个公民联署通过门槛到现在已经超过八千个公民复役那 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8500.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8516.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
部長你說我們有成效那我們要讓人民有感你也認為國人應該有感可是我們看到在這樣子的一個政府的公共政策的網路參與平台裡面大家還是認為應該再制定一個數位打炸法 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8518.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8538.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
而且連署的速度這麼快那你的立場呢 速發部的立場呢其實我想委員也非常清楚這個基本上數位打詐法這個概念是非常好的但是基本上我們之前的那個打詐專法裡面都已經包含了各種那個關於數位打詐的各種法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8539.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8561.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我們都已經做了譬如說我們裡面有那個廣告實名制這個我們不但已經通過這個法條而且我們確實實施了現在在Facebook在Line在Google上面的所有廣告都已經實施這個實名制而且這個實名制不但要揭露那個出資人也要揭露這個廣告的受益人然後再來我們在打造專法裡面我們規定說當政府通知這些平台要把這個詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8563.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8578.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
的訊息或廣告下架的時候他們必須在24小時之內執行完成這個也是一樣就是不但法律已經通過而且我們都已經執行都已經做到了部長 法律的通過是一件事很好那有執行是一件事很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8579.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8604.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
但是最重要的是防不勝防為什麼國人對於政府的打炸的成效還有疑慮或是有問號那感受的問題我們又如何的去讓國人知道說我們是真的盡心盡力用力在防止在打炸我覺得這個部分是你要去思考因為下一頁不是只有這個網路平台而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8605.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8621.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你看到Trade我在要求很多委員跟我的要求之下你9月15號納管上路那我就開始按照時間序來講你從7月3號公告納管9月15號開始正式實施到現在你自己看這是你們的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8625.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8640.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
9月到10月通報並確認為詐騙廣告跟訊息數多查18000多件變成第三大被通報的平台我們當然也知道說你們有做你們有資安院有AI系統在掃描 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8642.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8656.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那我就請教一下那TREI你們有沒有在做有沒有在做防堵有沒有在做掃描尋找那些可能是詐騙的廣告有沒有去做攔截 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8657.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8686.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
是 這我們一直都有做事實上Thread雖然之前我們沒有正式納管但是其實我們一直有在做Thread上面的詐騙訊息的巡檢我們發現詐騙訊息的話我們也通知ThreadThread當然它背後就是Meta這個事實上我們都一直有在做我們現在所以正式納管是因為我們打詐專法是規定的是廣告Thread在之前在我們打詐專法剛通過的時候它並沒有提供廣告的功能它在今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8687.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8715.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
他在三月我上次有提醒你啊是當然當然當然這個我們也注意到了他開始提供廣告的這個功能以後那我們就依照這個打詐專法必須把它正式納管那我們現在正式納管那事實上也必須跟委員報告就是說在正式納管之前我們就已經開始做這個在Thread上面的這個那個掃描還有偵測還有通報那Thread那邊事實上也都有配合在把一些詐騙的訊息把它下架下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8716.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8730.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那這個關於感覺的方面現在實際上我們大家也注意到最近我們一些詐騙很多都已經從線上轉為線下或者是線上線下的虛實整合這個我們很不願意這樣講但是事實上就是也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8731.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8755.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那個因為我們打詐在線上我們速發不發那個負責的線上打詐有一定的成效所以這個詐騙集團他不斷的流竄他發現說線上純線上的詐騙不行的時候他就轉為線上線下的結合那這個方面我們會再跟那個內政部的警政署我們密切合作我們要一定要一起合作防守不管他是線上線下或者線上線下聯合我們一定要把這個詐騙堵住 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8756.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8780.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那是不是請你會後給我一個現在各網路平台你們納管之後的一個防止詐騙跟打詐的一個成效不僅僅是數字我也希望能夠有更進一步的一個報告可以讓國人知道好不好給我書面報告我覺得成效是最重要的讓人民有感是最重要的讓人民不要被詐騙更是重中之重 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8781.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8805.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
非常謝謝委員的督促跟鼓勵 謝謝好 請在速發部請再提供給何委員以及我們本委會的委員辦公室這個打炸的一個成效好不好來接下來請林俊憲委員質詢好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們速發部林部長來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8812.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8838.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
委員長早安部長早部長我們今天當然都很關心台灣目前社會充斥的一些虛假的訊息詐騙等等第一個由於現代科技的進步現在詐騙的手段手法真的是越來越可怕防不勝防而且AI的出現更是推高了這種造假的技術層面 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8840.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8866.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我給你看幾個都是最近很大的新聞用AI變成製造假新聞一個是第一個是製造假新聞賴清德賣台第二個就是郝龍斌因為你選擇當主席跟一個女性親親的照片還有一個我記得之前這個也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8868.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8894.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
幫黃國昌解套黃國昌勒警察的脖子把那個警察好像被勒得很舒服很爽快再來第四個這個在台南這個也是造假的新聞什麼光電板死了很多魚這些都是AI模擬生成那你對一般人這個其實以假亂真這個很像吧是那個有像嗎很像很像這個很像 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8896.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8916.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
像這個經營你看這樣要怎麼辦基本上對於假訊息的管理跟詐騙訊息的管理在許多機制上是類似的我們可以照理說我們都可以做但是假訊息一個很麻煩的地方是在於說在民主國家裡面言論自由的範疇的問題因為有這個問題然後就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8920.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
8940.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
然後抱歉我稍微說明一下就是說像這個AI生成的影片它在本質上有些人認為說它就是一種諷刺一種用英文講做Parody來講那這個在像這個歐美它幾百年來有那個政治漫畫的這個傳統他們認為是可行的那現在最大的問題是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
8941.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
8968.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
現在的這些AI假影片是以假亂真民眾無法判斷譬如說以前的這個政治漫畫大家可以看到說政治漫畫那個絕對是假的嘛所以現在的關鍵是在於說我必須標示就是說我用AI生成的假影片照理說應該要標示那首先在法律上我們在那個打詐專法裡面有規定就是如果說是廣告裡面使用到AI生成的影像或者是影片的話它必須標示 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
8969.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
8998.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
然後如果說沒有標示的話我們政府就可以要求像Meta像YouTube這個平台把它下架然後再來就是本身這個YouTube或是那個Facebook他們這個本身這些平台他們的平台守則社群守則裡面有規定就是說你民眾自己貼上去的AI的影像他也必須標示說清楚標示說這是AI所生的就是你必須要有標示這些AI創作對那如果沒有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
8999.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9016.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
對 這時候就衍生第二個問題第一個 你是有罰則如果他是懷有目的 那怕你慘再來 你剛剛有說下架是 多少時間可以下架對 這也是問題等他下架 傷害造成啊是 沒錯 沒錯所以我才要請問部長那我們蘇華部 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9018.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9032.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
你 我知道你最近有一個網路詐騙通報查詢網嘛是是是就是說我看到這個東西 我覺得是假的我的關鍵在你這個網絡對你大概平均多久可以處理啊如果你達到必須下架的這個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9033.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9056.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們接到通報以後我們會迅速分案那分案以後請那個譬如說跟內政部有關內政部那邊去做判斷是不是關鍵在於說誰判斷是真訊息還是假訊息你這個往成立以來這種虛假不實的AI就是說你到下架平均是多久的時間這個虛假的東西存活多久第二個你有多少是達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9058.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9079.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
就是說譬如說移送法辦的這個程度對 我們第一個就是說我們現在大概基本上在24小時之內我們都可以下架理系休息嗎對 大部分的我們通知那個平台以後平台就必須在24小時之內下架這是法律規定的那當然是說我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9079.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9104.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
麻煩的就是如同剛剛委員講的在判定誰來判定是不是詐騙訊息我們現在是委由各個因為你不要常常說什麼言論自由最後就是用言論自由這個棋子來的如果你當然我們保障人權但是有些是很明顯的你已經是造假的你當然要有點強制行政哪有不擔風險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9106.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9131.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那有可能 對不對但是這個很明顯的 比如說這個藍綠都受害了是 沒錯沒錯沒錯我剛給你看三個圖 第一個賴清德受害嘛 是郝龍斌受害嘛 是黃國昌得利啦這個余文這個就是這也是執政黨受害嘛 他在打那個光電嘛 是 對不對你這種狀態之下 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9133.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9144.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
你比較強調說你比較維持社會的一個安定是那如果很明顯其實你很明顯的你是怕你事後必須擔責任那你什麼事情都做不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9146.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9172.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
你剛講到言論自由就是這樣我怕他這樣來告我手話部我手話部不太會講其實我覺得你很明顯就可以判斷第一個 如果他AI沒有標示就直接下架我們選舉也是我們選舉的任何的文宣品選舉的話選辦法有規定傳單我們都要簽名簽名都需要退後就廣告 這個也是廣告廣告的部分管理絕對沒有問題因為那現在比較麻煩的是民眾自發性的因為我跟你講一件事就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9174.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9201.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
本週 本週渴望各政黨協商沒有異議的話就會通過普發一萬的是這個相關的法案和預算是 沒錯好 那可能就10月 11月就開始發放了是你現在要發這幾萬的那詐騙一大堆是那詐騙集團現在是我們看到台灣有溫暖的一面你看到這個有實在是太可惡像產值超人這也有人做東西出來賣 出來騙錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9206.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9230.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
尤其這個普發疑患普發疑患現在已經有很多人我想詐騙集團一定很興奮啦這很好的機會啦一年換一萬啦這算對人來說有一點掉下來的禮物這沒得騙多少錢那也對不起自己所以你看現在有很多的針對這種普發疑患的一種虛假詐騙的行為手段是不是請蘇華部這個時候要特別提高警戒啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9230.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9258.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
是在這方面我們基本上有幾個策略第一個策略是說我們會跟民眾講說所有跟普發現金有關的訊息還有所有的登記這些作業只有在財政部的這個官網上才進行我們不會只有這個地方有那個別的地方不會有而且現在財政部這個普發現金的網站還沒有正式上線所以你所有民眾我們在這邊跟所有民眾講說你現在如果看到說有什麼普發現金的網址什麼的那個基本上都是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9259.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9282.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
當然民眾也知道要去展現模樣現在給你看這個網址它就像一個財政部像不像對 那這個就要講到根本就是財政部的一模一樣的對 那我們就講到另外兩個策略第一個就是說我們如果發現到有這種假的網站我們接到通報以後我們馬上用DNS RP是一個技術去把它降低流量甚至於封網 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9283.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9299.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
然後再來我們把一些可能就是假的網站 類似的網站我們都事先去把它封住了預防性的把它封住了你看我今天幾乎時間都讓給你做解釋謝謝我就是希望說你要知道說現在來即將要普發一萬這個詐騙集團可以說蠢蠢欲動不是 已經動了 已經動作了像這個是假的網站好像網絡一大堆針對普發一萬的這種虛假網站你了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9311.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9314.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你說你把它撤銷抓到多少我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9316.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9342.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們現在還沒有 還沒做好但是我們每天都由Telomik自動的去搜尋網路上面搜尋看有沒有這個好 我們希望在這段期間蘇澳部應該要就是要特別因為這個是一個很特殊的情況之下確實也已經發生很多的虛假的網址網站你已經知道你配人這一方面還有相關的事情另外就是關於這種AI生成的一些虛假訊息是這個請蘇澳部 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9346.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9355.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好好地來把關好不好現在詐騙可以說是全民最痛恨的一件事情民怨之所在啦是好 謝謝你們的鼓勵跟督促 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9357.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9380.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好 謝謝林俊憲委員本席再次提醒其實我們這個詐騙都是大家一起關心的議題那最重要的還是在通路上的防止因為不管是這個普發現金1萬元的這個通路如果說我們現在通路兩個部分以前我們有看到這所謂的這個簡訊擴散釣魚網站的簡訊那現在也都有把這個簡訊給遮蔽 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9382.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9401.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那另外一個部分就是要配合社群媒體平台讓這樣子一個假的訊息不要散播出去我想讓通路減少自然而然我們民眾沒有辦法接收到這一些詐騙訊息詐騙的樣態就會大幅的下降好 再來我們請葛盧軍委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9418.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9422.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請速發部林怡靜部長來 請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9427.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9451.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
各位委員長 部長好 恭喜部長就任一個月希望這個抒發部有不少的legacy這個講好的叫傳奇 講不好的是挑戰那我想我們一起來努力那抒發部自成立以來到目前為止一共只送過兩部法案到立法院審查通過一部是電子簽章法 另外一部是資通安全法今天就這兩部法的施行想要來和部長做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9452.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9468.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
首先是資安的部分不知道部長有沒有體驗到我相信你應該知道我們現在資安領域有非常多嚴峻的挑戰這個趨勢Cyber Risk Report有提到我們在資安風險上有很多的指標名列前茅雖然我們有非常多資安人才都是一等一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9469.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9491.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
但是我們可以看到這個勒索軟體攻擊世界排名第四 47萬多次有看到惡意城市的偵測數量世界排名第五一共偵測攔截1.7億次我想部長我們資安界有時候會提到木桶理論就是一個木桶的這個側板最低的部分就是水會漏出來的部分我們金周刊有看到2024年2025年9月 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9494.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9517.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
之間上市櫃的公司發布的資安重訊這個資安威脅的總數116件受害的除了科技業也有鋼鐵 塑膠 食品 紡織等等的傳統產業受害公司當中有很多數據很精彩資本額100億元以下的公司佔78%但是有一半以上的公司資本額則是在10億元以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9518.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9540.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
表示什麼呢台灣168萬家的中小企業佔我們總體企業總量的98%以上正在成為駭客眼中的肥羊那速發部一直有說公司協力全社會治安防禦任性不應該只是口號那我們有看到這一次也非常感謝我們大家一起努力這個自動安全法的修正草案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9541.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9557.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
第四條有政府應協助民間處理因應及防範重大自動安全事件這是本席這一次修法版本當中最重要的主張之一那這個行政院預計在115年的3月23號實施目前還沒有正式上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9558.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9574.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那抒發部現在應該正在進行協助民間提升資安防護的規劃請問部長 抒發部目前打算如何協防民間資安錢在哪裡 人又在哪裡115年度預計投入多少的預算人力來進行所謂的民間資安聯防 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9576.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9593.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
OK 謝謝委員的垂詢那關於這個中小企業的資安的確是一個很大的問題因為通常中小企業這是我的題目 謝謝謝謝部長因為我們時間有限啦你可不可以就告訴我多少錢多少人因為我外委會的嘛我時間有限嘛多少錢多少人115年謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9596.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9624.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
謝謝委員那個資安法在這條通過其實對整個民間企業的資產防護非常重要不要再重複我的問題明年我們的預算編列目前大概是1億左右的經費在有關Support整個中小企業跟一般企業的資產部分我們有這麼多的案件這麼多的重訊我們花1億1億元知道在台北可以買幾棟房子嗎我想這個到底是不是符合部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9627.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9639.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
謝謝 謝謝我們請部長看一下我們官網上面寫建構全社會資安防禦任性編一億啊夠不夠啊不夠我們 對嘛你今天寫吧委員讓我解釋一下因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9640.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9664.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
基本上編再多的錢都不夠因為台灣有太多的中小企業如果你全都要靠政府的話是不行的那我們政府能做的第一個是我們分享資訊因為我們這個資安的一個特性就是補助漏洞然後駭客會不斷的找新的漏洞所以這個我們很重要就是說我們當我們發現一個資安的新漏洞所謂的Zero-day vulnerability的時候我們必須盡快的把這個資訊傳給所有的中小企業知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9665.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9686.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我不認同您剛剛提說編多少錢都不夠那就不要編了嘛不是我們有另外的方法去做不是這個意思嘛您剛剛提到的其實是過去我們沒有這個資安聯防的一個法規法條我們這一次修法通過第四條政府應協助民間處理因應重大措施所以我們就要來編預算嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9686.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9712.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
一億不夠我們要增加對不對如果一年不夠我們可不可以有一個三年期五年期的計畫不好意思我們這不是在對抗我們是一起在幫助民間幫助台灣的資安好不好所以這個希望我們想這個書發部可不可以就這個資安防護民間企業健全資安防護向行政院來爭取編列中長城的計畫來因應我們一起來努力有沒有機會可不可以部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9713.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9724.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
當然可以 希望委員多支持當然支持 這個我們關注對不對民間一億元要來民間協防這真的太不夠了那部長我們要提到人力的問題治安署176人 治安院230人 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9728.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9743.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
其實我想對於要這個協防168萬家中小企業很可能真的不太夠那我們一起來共足資安防線的部分我們想說也許鄰近的韓國就有設全國性漏洞通報獎勵制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9743.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9767.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那這個鼓勵白帽駭客一起來共同協防網路安全我們知道啦什麼TEAM5啦還有一些非常厲害啦這個DEFCOR都很強嘛那部長為了彌補資安人力不足的問題抒發部可不可以研議參考韓國的做法設置相關的漏洞通報獎勵的機制啊是 我們也有我們漏洞通報獎勵的機制我們請資安署署長來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9769.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9785.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
報告委員 我們從今年九月份開始就有定一個有關於這個百貿化藝科的這種漏洞內補的這樣的計畫那我們也有獎金 那獎金當然沒有像國外這麼多不過也是有獎勵的這個制度已經上線了嗎 開始了嗎明年一月 九月份把這個計畫公佈那一月份開始來實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9786.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9811.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
高手在民間啦這裡我幫書發部整理了一下獎金制度希望能夠有一些對齊啦國際企業當然比較高10萬美金蘋果到500萬美金那大型跨國的企業有到1萬美金以上國營事業呢大概5000美金那韓國政府呢有高達這個20萬那新加坡政府有高達30萬那我們希望我們在這個部分因為資產對台灣很重要啦我們真的是不能落後 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9811.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9837.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那白帽駭客其實還有一些不是錢的有時候是榮譽像這個也有公司像Synology他做一個公開表揚白帽的這個駭客去協防那當然還甚至有的政府是說白帽駭客獎勵制度之餘還有法律保護這一點不好意思主席我借一點點時間因為這真的是我們台灣非常重要的治安這個我們能不能一起來考量這是比利時的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9838.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
9855.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
免於他們在測試或在幫助的過程裡面反而不小心處罰被起訴部長我在這裡還要先給你提一個台電公司很好有這個漏洞懸賞但是嚴重最高獎金他說務必提出進入企業內網網段之佐證 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
9856.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
9872.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
抱歉啊這根據台灣的刑法這樣子他就違法了他可能會被抓起來這是不是台電變成這個密罐攻擊要攻擊我們白茂海哥不能這樣嘛好不好這個能不能稍微跟他們討論一下所以我想本席在此具體的向速發部提出四點建議第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
9873.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
9894.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
政府預算雖然沒有辦法跟企業相比可是跟其他國家比獎金可不可以不要落差太大好不好拜託第二個速發部有沒有機會架設專屬的網站具體表揚對國家治安有貢獻的白茂駭客可以叫他國茂駭客嘛對不對現行第三現行法律制度之下有很多白茂駭客在幫助的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
9895.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
9920.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
會觸犯刑法妨礙電腦使用罪的風險可不可以請研議相關部還有國營事業啦能不能具體提供一個保護的措施甚至討論修法的可能性最後我想希望能夠速發部邀集治安代表一起研議啦有沒有其他的特殊獎勵國家的勳章啊特殊禮遇通關等等啊他們也是守護國安的英雄嘛對不對虛擬世界也非常重要這個部分我們可不可以一起來努力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
9921.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
9949.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
是委員的建議非常好那個感謝委員我們會努力往這個方向對不起我還有最後一個問題這個電子簽章法修法去年5月40日至今有沒有行政機關向速發部提出要延後適用電子簽章有沒有跟委員報告沒有沒有好OK謝謝感謝主席謝謝速發部好謝謝葛如今委員謝謝部長好接下來請李坤哲召委咨詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
9957.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
9962.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝侯孟楷召會 請下林部長還有治安署蔡署長林部長請 蔡署長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
9966.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
9975.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
部長好 資安是非常重要的當然資安是必須要經過專業的機構來驗證所以政府部門對於資安的驗證有相關的採購其實我們從這些採購的過程裡面以及實際的資安驗證我們可以發現到整個認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
9989.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10005.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
不正確的現象是非常令人頭痛的第二個證書的失真因為你認證不正確當然就會對於相關的證書會有失真的這樣一個問題那我們更發現到相關的顧問案 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10007.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10027.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
跟驗證案它是綑綁在一起的這種求援兼裁判的這樣的一個亂象其實是造成了資安相當大的一個漏洞因為我們相關的資安驗證就會出現假的安全的一個保證而且我們這種跨部會的監管架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10029.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10045.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
也沒有辦法建立起來這當然會形成一個重大的一個資安的漏洞當然我們國家級的這一種資安的驗證機構就只有一家就是TAF那TAF它的驗證是比較專業而嚴謹的但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10048.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10060.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
TAF它可以授權認證國內的資安機構可以去做相關的這些資安的驗證總共有幾家來說明一下是 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10062.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10072.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
報告那個詳細的家屬不同不過剛文提到的就是說輔導跟驗證廠商之間的關係要怎麼把它確立非常的嚴謹就是說不會因為輔導 署長因為國內TAF認證的這些資安機構是只有9家 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10080.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10093.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
因為國內的驗證的這些範圍跟機構非常的多那TAF人力當然是不足所以它有這些認證授權的資安的機構只有9家但是人力還是明顯的不足啦當然我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10095.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10114.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
數位部也通過這樣一個認可就是有這個國際認證的集合員的註冊機構就是IRCAIRCA有這個證照的人他就可以進行公部門的一個治安的一個認證那我在這邊要來提出相關的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10116.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10134.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我们政府要求各部位要完成治安的认证跟验证但是呢品质是参差不齐的为什么因为市面上有很多的验证机构就是所谓的CB他向台湾的TAF取得授权 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10135.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10154.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那這些他們就可以直接的對企業或者是機關進行審查並且核發ISO的相關的證書那當然這些應該是要很專業要很嚴謹的驗證機構會出現下面的問題第一個就是為了逃避規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10155.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10166.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
或者是為了要逃避TAF的監督所以有些驗證機構他發出的證書是沒有登錄的或者是說他是不受國際認證的一個相關的證書第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10171.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10190.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
有些业者他会提供假认证机构所颁发的一个证书那相较于TF是非常的严谨他们会定期的访视 抽查还有见证这些相关的评鉴那其实我们看到国内的这样的一个状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10190.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10216.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
治安的保證是不足的部長你有什麼看法說明是 剛才那個委員問的這個幾個問題我事實上都非常能理解這個對我們來講非常的重要因為這個認證 治安認證是一個對國家 對企業來講都很重要的事情它本身也是一個很大的一個產業所以我們在政策上我們是希望說能在台灣扶植一個健康的認證的 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10217.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10240.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那个产业链就是认证本身是一个生意然后辅导也是一个生意但是我们要确定说认证跟辅导不能互相勾结然后也不能说为了要绑标故意在某一些的标案里面要求这个认证而其实上不需要认证部长我们这不只是国内的问题其实国际上充斥着各类型以及不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10241.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10262.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
國際驗證的機構不同的國際資安證照也是一個嚴重的問題我們看到數位部資安署是否有能力去協助基層的這些採購承辦人員就是說能夠去分辨哪些是國內合法的檢驗機構 驗證機構哪些是國際認可的國內認可的這種國際資安的證明有沒有辦法來說明一下我們要去協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10271.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10296.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
是 謝謝委員我想有兩個點第一個點就是有關於剛剛講的這個ISO27001這個驗證的標準那我們基本上會要求驗證的機構是要TAFTAF所認可的這個認證過之後的驗證機構所以這個部分應該是可以follow這樣的規則這要去全面的解釋因為如果最根本的驗證機構 驗證人員他是不符合國內的標準而且不符合我們認可的國際標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10298.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10304.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們怎麼去確保這些資安驗證它是符合規範的沒有錯 所以我們現在認定是說這個有經過他所認證的這個驗證機構所發的這些資安的這個驗證的這些證書是合以我們要求規定這是我們會去要求接下來我們就討論到剛才提到顧問捆綁驗證的這樣一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10320.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10342.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那當然我們為了確保資安驗證機構的公正性跟他的獨立性其實資安署在資通安全責任等級分級辦法一半事項就有明確的指出輔導案及驗證案之服務契約應該要分別招標但是我們看到在政府的採購網的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10344.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10359.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
其實你要去查一下政府的標案充斥著資安的輔導跟資安的驗證它是綁在一起的這種標案這怎麼去確保資安驗證的獨立性跟公正性呢署長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10360.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10382.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
的確就是我們當初就是要求這個公正性跟獨立性 所以我們有這個要求要分別招標 那這個事實上我們之前也新聞給各機關就是照這個規定來辦理 那未來我們會在我們有一些相關的巡迴的研討會上面我們還會再宣導各個機關就是說在這個部分的這個相關的招標跟這個採購過程中要把它分開出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10384.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10407.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
另外一個嚴重的問題就是說我們基層人員他的教育跟培訓的不足那其實也襯托出我們中央監管的相關的一個缺乏監管的這樣一個議題因為假證證機構還有這些假證書他仍然還是有廣大的市場 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10409.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10433.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
因為他還可以通過政府的審核這就莫名其妙了就顯示出基層的公務人員他不具備應該有的準確的識別證書證偽的能力另外資安就是國安就是說我們國內現在缺乏能夠跟國際接軌而且能夠監管各資安驗收機構 驗證機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10437.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10453.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
而且能夠具體監管國際資安證照的這些機關我們還是缺乏這種能夠跟國際接軌相關的這些資安證照的這些機關是不是有這樣的問題我們都必須要明確地去檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10456.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10468.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
目前TAF作為驗證資安驗證機構其實他就已經分身乏術了那我們必須要能夠直接能夠解決目前的認證驗證的亂象的單位這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10472.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10499.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
蘇發部必須要跨部會跟其他單位來做研議來部長最後時間讓你簡單說明一下你未來的規劃非常贊同那個委員的這些想法那的確就是如同我們剛才講的那個我們要想辦法讓確定說台灣的這些認證機構還有輔導單位成為一個健康的產業生態而且我們一定要去把那些帷貌或者是在利用這種機構機制在 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10502.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10528.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
塗一些不法或者灰色地帶的利益的這些事情我們必須把它抓出來那我們這個地方我們會努力去查核謝謝部長跟署長都非常清楚資安非常重要但資安就是必須要資安的驗證那資安的驗證政府的採購過程裡面剛才跟部長相關的這些討論過程裡面我們發現到有很多的這種嚴重的問題這對資安的漏洞都是讓它慢慢的擴大這對國家的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10529.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10547.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
以及人民的權益都是損傷非常大所以資安的驗證資安的驗證採購是非常重要是希望部長全力的去做檢討跟改善是謝謝委員的督促謝謝好謝謝接下來再請廖先生委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10559.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10584.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
謝謝召委麻煩邀請我們林部長林部長請廖委員好謝謝部長這個今天要跟部長就教的是這個數位憑證皮夾是我們今年初開始努力在推的先確認一下我們數位憑證皮夾推出之後我們的數位身份證確定不會再推了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10585.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10613.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
是 基本上這個數位身分證跟數位憑證事實上是不太一樣的概念數位身分證基本上是說所以你們還要推我們會推數位憑證對 數位憑證皮夾對 那數位身分證那是內政部主管的就確定那個要問內政部不是我們書發部負責好 那沒關係那數位憑證皮夾目前正在進行沙盒實驗是 對不對那沙盒實驗目前有大概多少個申請單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10617.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10631.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
目前沙盒大概有1600個單位在裡面做試驗就大概半年的時間1600個單位從3月到現在是那我們這一次沙盒實驗的經費大概規劃了多少 編列了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
10634.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
10645.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
應該說我們是用整體的經費去估量如果說從113年到114年兩年的時間那我們所有評審品牌包含前端設計 驗測跟發證的測試這些一共目前編列的經費是2.5億 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
10652.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
10674.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
2.5億就在沙盒的部分不是是整體整體那之後現在先用沙盒來實驗那我目前編列2.多億的一個經費那現在沙盒1600家廠商或是自然人在做使用那你們怎麼去未來怎麼去跳脫這個沙盒就是說你們怎麼樣去評斷或是檢測它是一個可以上路的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
10676.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
10705.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我們預計在年底之前我們就會找幾個試驗的場域我們就會正式上路了我們希望先有幾個成功的案例因為任何這種新科技的推展剛開始可能都會有一些問題不一定是技術的問題可能是一些操作上什麼的問題我們希望說先一步一步來先做沙盒沙盒以後有這個Prototype有Prototype以後有幾個成功的案例然後我們在大面來推廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
10706.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
10725.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
因為其實之前在當然您說聽到這個計畫的時候其實我個人啦我個人的感覺我不是很感興趣你知道嗎所以我也會懷疑說那我們後續推行的成效如何那目前半年以來那只有1600個單位或是個人來申請不是個人那個數量其實很大1600個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
10727.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
10745.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
就是申請的單位嘛 單位不包含人嘛可能是機關 可能是企業等等的嘛對 那1600感覺這個不是非常的踴躍啦那這是過程中 在沙盒沒關係因為你們年底才會正式推出嘛那你在沙盒過程中大家目前給你們的反饋大概是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
10747.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
10762.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
跟委員說沒有那在篩檢的過程中各界的確也提供非常多的寶貴的建議那包含在憑證因為憑證會有發行然後持有跟驗證會有三個角色那針對每個角色他們所要的功能跟流程的串接 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
10763.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
10785.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那乃至於說因為他會有一個石油端的載具他本身的一些操作的UI的調適其實外界提供了非常的很多的寶貴建議那這個也就是剛剛在說在年底的時候我們會釋放出一個試行的版本那版本就是依照各個沙盒環境裡面測試的建議沙盒裡面應該不只UI介面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
10786.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
10794.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
他包含剛剛有說在發證端跟驗證端他整個機制目前有哪一些驗證的單位可以去使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
10795.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
10812.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
目前驗證的部分當然在商業界有非常多比如說像那個租車的業務或者是在於人力證書就是我們求職需要的人力求職網的一些相關的證書其實還有蠻多的驗證機構都可以陸陸續續在這裡面做測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
10816.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
10838.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那因為目前使用的人還不多嘛對不對使用的人還不多就是使用的還沒有真的是還不多那在過程中他好像還沒有你們現在應該還在沙盒過程中還沒有辦法驗證實際上的驗證這個部分嘛比如說現在有辦法就是已經有人是比如說我參加沙盒的實驗我是個人那我去某一家廠商去試用這個數位憑證皮夾現在有辦法做到這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
10841.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
10860.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
有在進行這樣嗎因為我們現在在沙盒等於說是在實驗在Prototype的階段以我的書畫部來講現在就是在我的辦公室就是利用這個數位憑證皮夾來訪客來登記的時候我們現在已經在試行用這種方式來登記什麼人來我的辦公室找我了 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
10860.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
10887.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那有人用這個去登記嗎有啊真的有真的有你辦公室同仁才有吧當然就是在沙盒的時候一千六可能你們書畫部又佔了三百人了吧那因為你們驗證的情況下你說一千六你們覺得很多嘛一千六你們覺得很多算是蠻踴躍的你們認為蠻踴躍的因為這些人大部分是來做開發的他不是單單使用如果是使用的話一千六百人不是很多但是這一千六百一千六裡面有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
10888.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
10896.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
的分類你們有大概去區分嗎我覺得一部分是廠商端嘛一部分是使用者嘛裡面大概是多少使用者多少的開發商 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
10898.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
10927.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
跟委員報告一下那裡面目前的成員會有商業公司那商業公司就會包含開發跟驗證那當然還有會有一些是屬於那個要做發證發證的機關那像我們在裡面就包含有那個交通部他也在裡面沙盒裡面要去做測試他們的數位駕照的數位化的一些發證的流程都會在這裡面做那我說自然人的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
10928.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
10956.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
自然人的部分我們這邊就沒有那麼細分到他的角色對 因為你一個政策要推出來你就是必須要有人去使用它嘛一部分是你的系統的建制必須要完善就是剛剛講的驗證的部分每個機關他要去做他該做的事情那另外一個部分就是你要讓普羅大眾有去使用的意願這才是重點嘛那你推這項政策才會成功嘛那目前看起來你一千六裡面剛剛聽你們講大部分都還是廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
10958.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
10973.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
有興趣這個部分對不對反而是真正的使用者好像對於這個數位 憑證 皮夾到底可以有什麼用可能大家還一直半解那導致於他去申請沙盒試驗的意願並不高目前的情況是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
10974.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11000.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我們這個沙盒的目的本來就是給廠商因為這個數位憑證皮夾事實上是算是一個國家的基礎建設一個infrastructure在這上面會有很多的商機因為我們現在我們知道我們在網路上我們常常會認證就是說我有什麼樣的資格譬如說我是不是年滿18歲我是台灣人我有沒有駕照等等這些都是所謂的憑證在民間的廠商他們自然會聞到這個商機 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11003.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11024.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
民間廠商先不談我先請教部長的部分就是公家政府單位假設年底數位憑證皮夾上路之後每一個公家單位都能夠接受我去使用嗎或者說你需要多久的時間才能夠讓所有的政府機關中央地方的機關都能夠去接收我使用數位憑證皮夾 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11025.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11047.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
OK 這個部分我們正在努力跟譬如說交通部衛福部內政部等努力溝通因為這個數位憑證評價我們之前那個推數位身份證算是比較負面的經驗我們要非常非常小心所以我們剛開始我們會選定一些那個風險比較小的應用上面譬如說去超商領貨我們這個數位憑證評價所以你們政府單位不會是最優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11051.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11077.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
響應的反而是民間單位我們會還有譬如說在學校我的那個數位學生證這個算是比較風險比較小的我們先從這個地方來進行因為民眾的信心是非常重要的我們希望先取得民眾的信心然後我們再逐步往這些高風險但是大量使用的這些場域那假設我是一個業者那我要響應我政府的政策那我要也接受民眾使用這個數位憑證皮夾 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11078.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11082.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那我需要投入的硬體建設的費用大概會是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11083.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11109.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這個應該是不高應該是就是因為業者要投入的部分的資源其實很少因為系統的發展或者驗證的開發程式的模組都是我們數位發展部會統一幫大家都做完那對業者來講那可能就是一台虛擬的設備要把這個模組安裝進去跟他跟連結到後端的業務系統基本上他的成本會大約啦大約啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11110.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11133.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
成本的話就是一個虛擬機設備的成本就看大概可能是那個幾百萬頂多一兩千萬我說最少你假設不是使用者很多的話開發一個可以運行的系統大概就是一兩千萬大概一兩千萬算是蠻大型的因為大部分的如同我們市長講大部分軟體我們政府都有所以那目前還是可能比較大型的通路機構才有辦法來做這樣子的一個負擔嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11134.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11157.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
對當然大型的通路機構對他來講他意義更大那或許包括譬如說好了我們現在建制成本你們說可能幾億3億多4億多這樣的規劃那未來整體政府機關如果說要建制起這套體系讓每個政府機關都能夠讓我使用數位憑證皮夾的話那你們有沒有估過整個行政院需要支持多少的費用才能夠讓每個政府機關都能夠接收 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11159.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11188.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
是跟委員報告那因為在行政機關的部分有如剛剛所講的所有必要的元件都是我們社會發展部用金被直接統一支付掉那以各機關來講他其實只有很微薄的安裝跟轉資費用那成本其實都不會太高的就是東西而已然後那個系統你們這邊會處理好那以後那年底正式上路嗎好不好那我們明年的時候再一起來檢驗好不好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11189.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11209.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
謝謝委員的支持 謝謝六委員 謝謝部長好 接下來請陳雪生委員質詢好 謝謝召委 是不是請部長來 林部長請部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11218.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11240.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我第一次質詢你網路詐騙我以前不在意現在我們家樓上樓下都被騙被騙的數字都幾千萬我家人也被騙現在這個騙這個字當然人是先貪貪完了再騙現在這個詐騙這個東西應該是網路是最大宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11247.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11268.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
應該佔了90%原來非常嚴重網路上是絕對是達成但是最近在我們的奴隸之下好像網路詐騙的比例有在下降現在坊間大家朋友在聊天是就到底這個詐騙到底主要是誰是速發部主政還是內政部主政是有人講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11270.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11284.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
你內政部內政部是誰內政部就是警政署那你警政署好你打詐打詐的時候已經完蛋了是不是因為什麼因為你去報案報案的時候警察是很被動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11286.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11313.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
他一定是你報案以後我才主動嘛主動以後去查人去樓空所以這個主要還是書發部你們要負起責任來委員講得非常專業事實上這個是一個政府之間的分工那我們首先必須講說詐騙集團他的運作方式他通常是先在Facebook這種公開的平台上他發一個假訊息或假廣告說他是黃仁勳說他是張忠謀然後把人騙到這個LINE的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11315.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11342.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
你講的沒錯 臺大的校長 醫學院長 張先生這些都是主持人 董事長我說你見過他沒有 他沒見過到最後才知道 幾千萬有的都老師 高級知識分子我說你就貪嘛 他會用各種手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11343.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11370.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
你會覺得我絕對不是被詐騙的那個人最後被詐騙了他就騙嘛他編一個很好的環境讓你去參觀你會覺得信以為真所以這個我是覺得書報部我們立法院給你一些錢多做一些宣導嘛是不是 你在各種不同的單位像地檢署你看都演講防毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11371.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11397.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
你們警察機關也可以做啊地檢署也可以做啊法務部啊很多單位機關團體啊多宣導嘛是不是你民眾無知起碼你對這些公務員啊你讓他認知以後他回去啊對這些民眾啊他也會他的宣導的力量比你電視這個還強因為現在年輕人不看電視了因為電視每天都是那樣的嘛像我的話很多台我都閃掉了根本都不聽你胡說八道些什麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11398.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11421.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以你這個落實社群的平台責任很重要那我想請問部長目前平均的報案大概有34萬件一年34萬件裡面大概有APP證實的應該有APP報案的是34萬件那麼經過查證是18萬件左右大概每個月1萬多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11423.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11443.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
你能不能就像刚才你所讲的比如说我用张忠谋先生做主导人做主持人什么的你收到第一通诈骗的时候你赶快就要全部都要清查甚至网站把它封锁你动作要快啊是不是所以你的封锁网址 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11444.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11460.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
你用的時間多長你這個要注意到有沒有有沒有方法能夠更進一步的精進是 我講的完全沒錯事實上時間是非常重要的因為現在其實詐騙集團也知道說他如果發一個那個詐騙的廣告或詐騙訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11462.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11484.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
其實大概在24小時之內都會被我們速發部加上這個Meta還有這個Google Line我們會把他下架可是他就在想辦法在這24小時的時間裡面他把這個潛在的受害人騙到他的這個封閉性群組裡面你們這個動作要快你不然的話你到立法院來你看每個立法院都諮詢你你到底這個責任是誰要負 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11486.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11495.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
是不是你不要一下是內政部一下速發部一下NCC一下中華電信是你一扯一推256是誰都沒管到好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11496.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11520.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
跟委員報告就是如同我們剛才講的錢斷斷防止民眾被從公開的平台上騙到這個LINE封閉群組這是蘇巴部的責任然後開始那個騙到錢以後那個詐騙集團開始轉錢開始洗錢的時候這是金管會的責任然後等到民眾去報案的時候這個時候才是不過你們開這個會連結起來好不好是有這個我想你們應該有專業人員腦袋比我們都清楚嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11520.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11538.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
你不要到立法院一直被立法委罵我們也不是要去罵你民意代表的壓力因為時間的關係我請問第四海欄台馬第四號海欄你說明年六七月份五六月份要完工嗎可以完工嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11539.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11563.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們現在請任性司司長報告委員如果海象量好的話應該是可以你不要扯到海象啊你扯到六七月份應該把海象 風災 颱風全部所有因素都算進去了嘛是不是你不要提到什麼天災人禍 海嘯地震那到底哪一年 再搞五十年也搞不起來現在是預期115年6月據我了解 廠商有壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11564.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11586.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
據我的瞭解 明年能不能完工啊我給你打一個很大的問號我希望你們趕快動作快一點好不好你們要積極的去處理這個事情好不好 這個我很關心台馬第四條海欄另外啊在前幾天 就是10月8號有一條大陸漁船 閩連漁60138號漁船這條船在我們公海上 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11593.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
11619.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
它是拖網拖網勾到另外一條船的錨定另外一條船的錨定跟我們第二號海欄又扯在一起然後造成兩星它一共第二號海欄是12星兩星訊號異常也就可能有沒有斷了還是怎麼樣不知道這邊中心馬上就做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
11620.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
11648.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
也就是把第二號海纜的兩星的這個斷的部分把它切換切換到三號海纜那現在這邊中華電信已經把它處置完畢也沒有發生什麼損失啦因為這海纜很老舊了嘛你碰一下搞不好啊你來碰我們年輕人的皮膚沒問題碰到老人隨便碰一下骨頭就斷啦那中華電信目前也沒有什麼很大的意見啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
11649.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
11676.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
也沒有證據顯示是這條漁船因為他在公海上那這件事呢我們的海巡隊把他送到地檢署地檢署大概要用國安法來處置國安法處置那就太嚴重了這條船沒有任何故意的問題他要故意的話他已經跑掉了嘛哪容你海巡去抓他是不是他卻在那邊等候那麼現在中華電信那邊我也跟他談了 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
11677.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
11705.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
他說沒有造成其他損害大概就和解了彼岸的國台辦、省台辦很關心啊很關心他們到底要找誰呢現在跟海基會也是聯絡不上跟我們陸委會也是已讀不回那怎麼辦呢 就找到我那所以我在關切這個事情這個事情很像是法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
11706.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
11729.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
國安會都知道這個事情因為他不是像我們國安法裡面蓄意的要把他弄斷不是蓄意的而且中華電影目前也沒有任何的損失啦因為那個老舊嘛我希望部長回去了解一下部長回去了解一下這二號海欄因為兩岸的關係非常的嚴峻你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
11730.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
11758.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
有關兩岸的事務我們現在也陸委會海基會也無法去置入去處理所以這個部分他們委託我 拜託我我想部長這邊你去了解一下因為也不是故意的目前中華電也沒有任何的損失我們及早把老百姓我想大家都是國人同胞是不是彼岸的鄉親也是我們一起的鄉親是不是我們在在法理心的立場我拜託部長這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
11759.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
11771.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
能夠積極去回去以後積極處理一下協調一下國安會或是什麼好不好我想這個也沒有造成任何動盪也不是故意的好不好我想部長謝謝您好謝謝趙偉好謝謝好接下來再請邱若驊委員自選 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
11788.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
11791.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
主席麻煩請速發部林部長來林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
11798.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
11819.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
部長好 部長 速發部已經成立三年了那掌理數位通訊傳播還有數位基礎建設 資安防務還有數位治理那當初希望可以將台灣打造成智慧國家那也希望整合各部會的數位資源那在過去推動數位政策的時候部會之間需要非常高的協調成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
11819.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
11843.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以當初也希望速發部 數位發展部的角色可以協調各單位那本席看到速發部還有很多政策依然是理念超前 資訊落後 劃分雜亂那為什麼這麼說 部長根據省紀部今年公布的114年度中央政府總預算半年結算的查核報告那他明確地點名速發部在AI政策推動上統籌不足 成效不彰 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
11844.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
11871.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那報告中他也指出抒發部僅被動配合國發會還有國科會審議數位發展的計畫他沒有辦法掌握AI相關計畫執行情形難以發揮統籌推動還有管理的功能那他更指出目前中央尚無專責單位統籌審查AI的應用計畫導致各單位各機關重複開發相似功能的AI系統產生預算重複投資風險部長您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
11874.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
11889.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
是委員我的確是注意到有這樣的現象那也如同委員所講的目前的確我們國家AI的整體計畫的推動是在國發會跟國科會然後這個溝通的方面我也覺得說我們之前溝通做得不夠好 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
11890.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
11911.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那我本身是來自於業界而且我本身算是AI方面的我一直在從事AI方面有關的行業工作所以我們一定會加強跟其他部會的溝通而且我們會更主動更積極因為我們認為說在AI的發展上面就是AI產業發展上面我們速發部一定有很大的角色在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
11912.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
11931.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
是 部長雖然速發部你們有提出五年期的AI發展戰略計畫您也來自業界嘛雖然是速發部目前還是沒有建立跨部會的KPI還有共享平台那截至目前沒有辦法提供AI的專案清澈還有預算的整合報表請部長說明什麼時候可以建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
11932.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
11944.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
因為這個預算我們的書發部很多預算是來自國科會跟國發會由他們那邊去進行分配的所以也因為這個原因所以為什麼說關於AI的國家型的整體的計畫還是會由國發會跟國科會那邊來主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
11949.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
11961.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
因為這個預算我們知道說政府的機構的運作它事實上預算本身就是它的計畫的一部分計畫就是預算也可以某種程度來講就是這樣子那因為這個預算是來自於國科會跟國發會所以這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
11964.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
11979.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那是不是由速發部主動來像國科會還有國發會就是你們一起來建立一個協調小組那有行政院的政務委員然後就是納入國科會像是還有教育部經濟部然後你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
11980.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12003.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
形成一個國家級的AI發展不是各自為政那什麼時候可以做到呢事實上這個事情我一直在做我以前在當次長的時候我就常常找那個國科會主委和國發會主委我們常常在討論這方面的事情那我現在既然已經那個擔任部長那我當然會持續的跟國科會跟國發會那個更密切的討論而且我希望我們有更多的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12003.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12020.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
是 部長 神經部他還有發現很多重複開發的客服型AI那文件分類AI都是同樣的功能系統那造成年度的預算浪費估計是兩億那本系列注意到另外一個數據還有計畫速發部在今年辦理的AI培力的工作坊一共有920億人參 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12022.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12036.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
參訊但實際導入AI的機關只有31%它的落地率不高那顯示目前速發部在推動相關的政策還是相關的政策它是在停留在宣導然後還有訓練的階段不知道你怎麼看是 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12036.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12056.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
謝謝委員剛剛委員有提到譬如說那個客服AI就各部會重複開發的這個事情事實上這件事情在我們黃錢部長擔任部長的時候就已經注意到了所以本來我們是要做這些事情後來我們黃錢部長跟我都認為說其實像這樣的產品就是說客服譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12058.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12087.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
各部会的民众同宿的客服的AI这种系统其实由民间来开发就好这个对民间的资讯产业来讲是一个很大的商机我们应该由民间的产业去开发成这种产品然后卖给各个部会而不是各个部会各自去开发而所谓的各个部会各自去开发其实都是各个部会各自去有它自己的标案所以这个也是我上任以来一直在强调的一件事情就是说台湾的软体产业不能一直在走那个project |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12087.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12109.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
就是專案型的計畫而是應該要多去走這個product就是同樣一套系統開發一次但是可以給很多的客戶使用我們希望我們這個方向發展目前有這個能力來擔任主要的協調平台嗎是 事實上因為我以前在當市長的時候我在這個地方我常常擔任這個協調的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12110.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12126.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
本身有看到您說您的規劃是現在要做的就是建立速發部這個系統讓各部門可以順可以流暢的運作那速發部的角色接下來有沒有明確的要提出整合或是改進的方案去協調各部會你說在AI的方面我們具體的政策當然是 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12127.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12150.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
如同我在業務報告中五大政策工具就是算力資料人才還有行銷還有資金那這個事情譬如說資金就是跟國發會我們的100億資金是來自於國發會然後呢人才的部分當然是跟國科會因為那邊也要整合教育部然後在那個算力部分我們跟那個國科會我們有明確的分工那個算力如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12153.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12172.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
教育跟公部門所需要的算力由國科會的國網中心來提供如果是產業界它需要進行開發的話就會由速發部的速產署來提供像我只是舉幾個例子這個部分我一直在做溝通的工作我們速發部整體也都在做溝通的工作我們希望減少重複的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12173.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12194.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
有關AI人才的培訓嘛那這個培莉的工作坊一共有921個人參訓那速發部也說明年AI人才希望可以有3500名希望培訓3500名那今年也有提出AI十大建設的計畫是十年嘛那十年是目標目標的人數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12196.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12211.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
跟委員報告是我上任以來我在這方面我的想法比較不一樣譬如說3500人是35000人這個人數都太少我們一定要利用到民間的力量您知道AI十大建設十年下來希望能夠培育多少AI人才嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12215.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12240.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
12萬 其中有一個關鍵在於說我怎樣定義AI人才這個就是我們速發部現在正在做的我們現在就出了一個AI產業人才指引還有一個AI公務人才指引正在跟人總一起討論我們首先必須定義好什麼樣叫做AI人才譬如說如果說我只是會用ChatterGP我就叫做AI人才的話這個我要訓練多少都是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12240.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12263.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
但是第一個我們必須定義出來什麼樣的人才的標準本席是建議 速發部應該要建立AI的計畫資料庫還有AI年度的成效追蹤系統因為本席有看到智慧政府的治理雖然速發部有提出可是目前都沒有可以量化的成果指標關於KPI這個部分速發部要怎麼來明確的定出來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12264.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12282.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
數位政府的方面嗎對OK數位政府的方面我們那個當然是有一個指標還是人才的訓練的數量那就如同我剛才講的就是這邊指的是KPI因為沒有具體的可以量化的這個成果指標那速發部要怎麼如何來掌握政策的落實它實際的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12285.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12301.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
跟委員報告我們提出後面的五年的一個計畫裡面就有包括說每年會有五個領域裡面會有三個領域包括十到二十項的AI的服務會包括到內政 財政然後勞動等等這些的領域這個指標都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12301.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12328.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
在我們的計劃書裡面那也有填在這個AI實在建設裡面我們明慧希部長那本期最後建議因為審計部已經明確的糾正速發部AI推動不力那速發部多久可以提出AI的政策政策的改進的報告那個如果是政策的那個改進的報告其實我今天的那個業務報告那其中裡面也要列出跨部會協調跟志願整合的KPI成效那什麼時候可以提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12330.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12357.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那個委員我們可不可以就是會後我們提供書面資料因為要看什麼樣的那個因為協調這個事情就是一種長期性在進行的事情如果說針對速發部推動政策就是審計部指出的推動的不利那也需要就是建立一個平台像是剛才本席有提到不管是教育部還是國科會國發會那不要造成資源的浪費那這些報告希望速發部可以盡快提出OK好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12365.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12381.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
好 謝謝來 接下來再請賴世保委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請數法部的林部長林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12385.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12412.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
道遠好林部長你好是這個我特別關心一個事情就是通訊軟體我們看到這個有個數字最近三年裁判書三萬件詐欺案件相關的兩萬七千件九成都是詐欺但是事務發布只列管了Meta Line Google TikTok |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12413.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12430.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
對於Telegram跟WhatsApp這個它市場率比較低一點可是事實上來講大家以為說這裡的Telegram用得少其實Telegram其實用得滿多的Telegram這一部分你們什麼時候可以列款什麼時候比較積極一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12431.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12456.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
OK 剛剛委員報告我們現在目前列管基本上是依照打炸專法那打炸專法的立法的概念基本上是只管廣告不管私人的通訊也不管私人產生的訊息所謂的那個user generated content我們這個地方是不管的那因為在LINE它是上面是有廣告的所以我們可以管我們把LINE列管可是Telegram跟那個我們剛才講的還有什麼WhatsApp |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12457.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12484.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
上面基本上是我了解是沒有廣告嘛所以我們在法律上我們沒辦法去目前並沒有法源依據可以列管那另外來講的話因為這個是牽涉到憲法保障的秘密通訊的自由所以對於這個個人的通訊我們並沒有辦法去看政府我們並沒有辦法去看他可是我現在要強調是詐騙的訊息這已經危害到公共安全了是兒少的性影響各自的外洩政府的文件這個都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12485.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12506.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
很重要的領域啊是沒錯這個都很重要的領域這個不是你剛剛講的說這個私人的去通訊不是啊這是這是公領域啊這些都公領域啊是委員講的沒錯一旦犯法犯法的時候我們這個警方就有這個權利去查他私人通訊這時候就不受那個憲法的那個對那我現在就跟你講你們有管 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12507.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12525.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
Meta Line Google TikTok但是對於Telegram你們認為說市佔率低不管了我不是因為市佔率低不是因為市佔率低就如同我剛才講的因為是廣告的問題我們之前列管是因為我們打造專法規定的是我們可以管廣告但是私人的通訊裡面打造專法裡面來來來你看喔台灣人少用Telegram嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12529.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
12545.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
PTT 揭秘老司機詐騙集團的最愛就Telegram是啊 這個我們都知道所以你們現在等於是等於是完全不管啦這個東西不是完全不管束手無策啊跟委員報告我們是一個台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
12546.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
12572.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我們當然是說我們政府也希望說我在打造的時候我都可以去偷看每一個人的那個內容但是不能 我們是一個法治的國家我不能去看個人他如果在犯罪發生之前沒有 所以你給我答案說目前Telegram還是不管所以他還是不管不是不管 我剛才已經講了我剛才就講說他如果說已經犯罪的話那簡報就可以去管了你不要管了LINE你不要管了沒有 因為LINE我已經講過了LINE因為它有廣告所以我們可以管它廣告的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
12573.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
12586.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
所以Telegram是沒有廣告目前是 它沒有廣告啊確定嗎網友指出來Telegram的照片它的品質都優於Line |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
12588.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
12615.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
這不是廣告這是私人的通訊訊息譬如說我如果傳一個照片給委員的話那個警方也不能看我們如果我們沒有犯罪的話警方也不能看我傳給你的照片是什麼他現在犯罪了 我就說他犯罪了犯罪的話那就是由警政署他那時候就是已經取得法源的依據他就可以去搜索那現在另外當然還有一個問題是說像Telegram這個都還有WhatsApp這都是國外的公司那它並沒有落地當然是WhatsApp現在已經賣給Meta了 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
12616.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
12618.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那我們可以透過META那邊去請求他的協助你們再研究一下好不好第二個題目 低軌衛星現在進行得怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
12631.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
12645.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
OK 在低軌衛星方面目前我們速發布就是用OneWeb這個衛星系統我們已經有很多的接收站我們應該現在目前唯一有190幾個什麼時候開放給民間用這個應該是 保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
12648.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
12674.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
地軌衛星以現在來講兩岸這麼緊張隨時要打仗的地軌衛星很重要喔發委我覺得我們所了解中華電信的OneWeb的執照已經取得NCC的許可了所以大概在季節大概就會開放給民間使用近期是多近期啦 多快一個月 一個禮拜現在只是看中華電信準備好以後隨時可以在市場上賣就是說法令上現在都沒有問題了法令上都沒有問題這個你們管的吧 這個你們管不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
12675.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
12698.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
中華電信不是我們管的但低軌衛星是我們管的低軌衛星你管的 對啊那執照上面都已經發了所以現在就是看中華電信什麼時候它要開始它的商業營運因為這是商務業行為我不能硬性規定它哪一天要發另外還有就是Kyper我們現在也在跟Amazon的Kyper在談合作Kyper是Amazon它新開發的一個低軌衛星系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
12699.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
12718.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那我們希望說除了OneWeb以外我們還有另外的Kyper作為另外一種選擇那我們也希望說這個Kyper以後也會有這個商業的營運那目前的了解Kyper可能的營運商會是那個大家比較知道證明度高的Elon Musk他的Starlink我們不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
12719.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
12737.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
對 因為那個是法令的規定我們現在台灣的法令規定就是說這種電信那個營運商他必須有50%以上的股權是由台灣人掌控但是Elon Musk一直不願意答應這些事情所以除非是我們修法或是Elon Musk他同意就是說不再跟我們你們有沒有去跟他接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
12738.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
12752.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我沒有見到Elon Musk抱歉 我剛上任 我還沒見過他有沒有想要跟他接觸一下因為畢竟這一塊是他的專長是 當然有機會想去跟他接觸一下吧好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來再請郭國文委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
12771.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
12773.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
謝主席 我有請林部長來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
12780.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
12805.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
會員你好部長上次提到META有錯殺率太高的問題本席肯定你上任之後非常積極的追蹤跟META來進行溝通但是這個誠信原則所造成的衝擊還是越來越大也就是它自救會的成員從4000多人現在已經到了5000多人了那我就比較一下為什麼META會出現這麼高的錯殺率那你一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
12808.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
12834.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
LINE的部分的錯殺率很低LINE的部分它之前大規模因為詐騙的問題停了7.3萬 7萬3千個但是它申訴案件很少跟委員報告其實他們那邊也有不少錯殺的案件所以曾經還有50幾個他們的用戶跑到他們大樓相對而言比較之下那關鍵在哪裡本席就稍微去跟他了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
12835.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
12857.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
就是說LINE的部分它其實在使用的部分它適用消保法它有一個定期化的契約記載事項所以導致LINE的時候不能隨便停權使用者它可能會有訴訟跟賠償的問題對不對那問題就來了Meta沒有Meta沒有的部分好像說用LINE它有購買這個貼圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
12860.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
12880.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
可是問題是Meta的部分的過程當中因為流量一 它可以獲利使用者沒有獲利衝的流量它有獲利二 我們選舉的時候也會增加那個觸及率我們會買啊 怎麼會沒有買也有商業行為啊所以同樣的商業行為是不是也可以比照賴的方式來適用這個消保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
12880.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
12896.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
部長 是 這個我們去研究瞭解一下是不是 署長跟委員報告就是這個在行政院的消保處有討論過目前這種平台的免費使用是不是適用消保法這個是還要再釐清已經有例子了嘛 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
12898.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
12923.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
你現在的狀況我們就比較結果Meta的方式就用這種方式它就不能隨便亂做錯差它就會更加謹慎它的程式的設計對不對 對使用者相對有保障已經有一個好方法部長 這個要不要去好好研究一下是 委員我想我們署長的意思是說因為在Facebook上大部分使用者並沒有付錢給Facebook所以不能適用為消費者我們有付 怎麼會沒有付 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
12924.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
12941.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我廣告的時候廣告商有付他就必須下廣告就有付但是如果說我是一個使用者我沒有付錢給那個Meta然後我的那個被封鎖的話把他延伸出去我們事實上也有付所以說我們是有他有付的這個機制在 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
12943.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
12966.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
如果是他有負的機制在的話就類似於這種商業行為我請部長回去好好研究一下好不好比照辦理第二個部分最近有一個消息翠的部分台灣的流量是全球第一那過去以往我們要求他落地的時候他們就放在客服就說Meta就說我們這邊非常有限所以不願意投入人力你這樣講得通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
12968.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
12983.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這樣講不通講不通那有什麼方式讓Lambeta來落地OK在Thread方面其實Thread上面的那個詐騙我們在之前納管之前我們就已經有在巡檢有在通報他們他們也都一般來講都配合的狀況都不錯溝通還可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
12984.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13011.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
溝通還可以但是因為Thread它在今年3月以前它並不提供廣告那依照我們打造專法我們只管廣告所以我們納管了那個Facebook Line還有Google因為它都有廣告但是Thread沒有廣告那3月它開始放廣告以後我們就開始進入這個程序要把它們納管所以要納管了但是我是說如果可以的話應該把Meta這些人也要求落地讓你溝通會比較方便不然的話有些署長 次長還要跑去美國去跟他們溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13012.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13037.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
而且可以即時性的來維護這些使用者的權利另外一個部分部長你可以看得出來哪一個是假帳號嗎我看不出來看不出來對不對Meta部分不是一個人一個帳號其中有一些小帳這小帳就可以任意來作為帶風向散播假消息抹黑別人抹黑的成本是最低的這沒有辦法管嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13038.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13066.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
是在这方面我们分两部分来讲第一个就是我们现在有要求Meta去把那些跟诈骗集团有关的账号把它利用AI的方式把它找出来然后把它打诈的部分你们有在努力我知道那另外就是说中长期来讲因为Meta就如同委员讲的它因为他们并没有做身份的认证所以这个是造成我们不管是在关键嘛重点是身份身份来了有一个方式是 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13067.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13093.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
LINE的部分 一樣LINE的例子LINE的部分它就強綁這個手機的號碼強綁手機的號碼的部分它就可以建立這個造謠救責機制本席最近都是受害者無山投水庫就是這種狀況之前有更多的狀況都是如此所以說你要如何把這個扣連起來這是第一個要揭露的地方就是要如何救責讓它要綁手機手機就可以追蹤到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13093.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13116.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
身份他就可以救責這是第一第二個部分還有這一次呢中國也來湊熱鬧還有你透過這個登入帳號的部分你發現那個加86這個86的部分就是中國的帳號來假戴假冒說台灣人這麼戴帳號是不是國家的這個部分呢發文國家的部分也應該要予以揭露才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13117.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13134.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
是 沒錯這個事實上就是我們希望努力的方向這個有技術的問題也有法規的問題那另外還有就是商業面我們希望有這個機制然後我們現在先跟委員報告就是說我們跟LINE已經有這個機制就是說如果你加你的單位號是國外來的話它上面就會出現一個警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13135.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13156.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
對 沒有錯你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta是 不是希望這樣來就這三個部分一個是外國的一個揭示然後一個的部分就是使用者的一個造謠救責的一個機制然後另外一個部分就是有關於這個消保的權利保障好不好這個部分要多久給本席我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13159.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13174.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
委員我們經常有那個聯絡再去跟委員報告在那個年底之前下禮拜我們先來聊一聊好沒問題謝謝希望有一個具體的時間點好沒問題關於話拖太久問題會越多好期待你謝謝謝謝好接下來再請羅美玲委員質詢謝謝主席有請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13195.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13215.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
委員你好部長好 部長我今天剛剛有看了一下你的報告你有提到說這個抒發部很積極在推動培育AI產業人才然後也協助我的資安產業的研發相關的產品跟計畫可是我們知道資訊人才其實不等於資安人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13215.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13232.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以據我們所知台灣雖然每一年大約有1.7萬名的這個資訊相關科系的畢業生可是真正投入到資安產業的其實只有2000人左右那現在不單單是公部門很積極的需要這個資安人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13232.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13259.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
民間企業的這個資安人才的需求其實還是也是不斷的這個成長尤其我們看到這個醫療產業有60%的這個需求所以我想請問部長我們速發部作為這個負責資通安全管理的這個組織單位然後我們也依據這個資通安全管理法要求中央跟地方各機關必須要有配置資安專職的這個人員我想請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13260.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13280.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
民間企業也需要資安人員我們公部門也需要那我們要如何跟民間來搶這個人才我們有什麼誘因想請問部長OK 這個的確是一個很挑戰性的問題因為我們知道民間資安產業的薪資通常都是要高過於政府機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13281.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13299.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那在政府機構的資安人才呢事實上在政府機構你常常可以接觸到一些那種民間機構看不到的那個資安的問題所以在政府機構待過幾年的這個資安人才那民間產又非常喜歡因為這個是他們覺得說是非常具有經驗等於是我們在代訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13299.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13323.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
所以等於是也可以這麼講所以要怎麼留住人才所以第一個我們就是說我們在人才方面我們一個三個方向來做第一個我們還是想辦法提高我們政府的這個資安專業人才的薪資這是第一部分第二部分我們是要做那個攬財我們還是希望說找到好的人才所以我們現在在應該是2023年我們在高考我們已經增加了資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13327.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
13349.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
就增加了資安的類科增加了高考的一個項目然後再來是育才所以育才就是我們希望現有的公務人員他能去接受一些資安的訓練然後轉職成為資安的人員因為這樣子他的薪水也會提高然後當然我們希望說他薪水提高以後還是太快就離開我們政府部門但是從另外一方面來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
13350.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
13366.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
就是我們也認為說台灣有一個健康的資安產業然後如果說這個人才流到民間的產業的話這個對台灣整體來講也不見得是一個壞現象所以我們另外一個很重要的政策我們希望利用民間資安產業的力量來守護台灣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
13366.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
13390.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
還有關鍵基礎設施還有民間產業的資安這個資安的維護如果說單單靠政府的話我們政府現在那個編制應該是將近一千五百人但是我們的缺額有兩百人左右我們現在就實際上大概就一千三百人那這個人數一千五百人一千三百人都是絕對不夠的所以我們是希望能利用民間的資安產業的力量來幫他共同守護台灣的資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
13391.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
13415.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
OK好謝謝部長再來我們看一下剛剛部長有提到就是說有關於這個我們正中央就是政府部門的一些資安這個人才的我想看一下我們113年這個資安專職人力的禁用的這個類型我們可以看到在我們這個公部門裡面公務人員有跟資訊處理直系有關係的這些大概只佔了44% |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
13417.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
13440.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
這是其實這個因為他是治安專職人力所以這個比例其實是不高的所以部長剛剛有提到就是說我們可能未來可能會跟民間來做這個合作然後我們再來看這個審計部113年總決算這個審核報告裡面你看這個治安專職人員未取得治安專業證照或職能訓練證照的這個情況你看這麼重要的法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
13440.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
13461.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
未取得資安專業證照的有15人未取得職能訓練證照的7人未取得這兩個證照都未取得的有13人加起來有35人再來就是衛福部 教育部然後當然剛剛部長有提到說我們要從內部裡面先去做訓練看這種狀況的話像這個的話我們要如何去協助各個部會呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
13462.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
13477.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
到底發生了什麼狀況有像法務部衛福部教育部有這麼多人會取得這個相關的這個這個證照我們說我們說法部這邊有提供相關的協助的一些計畫還是怎麼樣的一個一個協助的相關的措施嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
13478.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
13504.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
是 謝謝委員 剛剛說明一下其實目前就委員所講的的確在政府機關的這個資安專制人員大概有35位左右沒有取得這個資安的專制證照那我們去查像法務部是比較多的一個人數15位 那因為我們也去了解法務部的情況那他最主要是因為法務部他的首屬這個監守還有一些相關的這些機構很多 那人才不太夠所以這部分我們也在請法務部這邊一起來協助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
13505.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
13516.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那訓練部分我們有一個轉職訓練裡面我們要補助來參加這個相關的治安的職能訓練的部分我想我們都有在進行這部分的相關的協助以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
13516.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
13534.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
對 我覺得這部分真的是要做加強我看到這個數據我也剛開始覺得很不可思議像法務部這麼重要的一個不會居然這個未取得證到的人數居然是這麼的多而且像整個公部門像公務人員他跟相關科系的這個所謂的資安專職人員居然只有44%我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
13536.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
13560.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這真的是要從內部先加強我是這麼覺得然後是雙管齊下這個部分的話是請那個書發部真的是要協助各部會來處理這個相關徵兆的問題還有專業人才的這個培育OK謝謝委員的督促OK好 以上謝謝好 謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員我們在場關於部長有沒有需要洗個手 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
13563.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
13589.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
不用 因為其他官員如果說有可以洗手間但我看部長從早上9點到現在如果有需要洗個手再讓我們知道好 接下來請中嘉賓委員中嘉賓委員不在黃建豪委員 咨詢好 謝謝主席 我們請部長好 來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
13597.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
13618.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
你好部長好 部長辛苦了這個我剛走慢一點讓你喘口氣謝謝我們還是要進入主題今天才跟部長討論我想部長剛上任的時候有接受一個專訪期待說能夠把台灣的軟體業打造出台灣版的微軟Google或Meta但是我想這個真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
13619.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
13632.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
理想很豐滿 現實很骨感我們看一下現在我們講到說Google或Microsoft當年或是現在Meta即便是Meta或是Google是近代比較成功的案子他們當初IPO的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
13633.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
13660.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
Google也要23億美元Meta在2012年IPO募資的時候已經到160億美元那台幣當然就已經這個幾千億的部分了那我想部長你提了這樣子的願景跟這個目標那計劃在哪裡還有你預計要花多少錢是政府出錢還是民間投資民間募資我們提供這樣的環境讓民間做到這個事情到底這個東西部長提出來的願景那怎麼樣才能做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
13660.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
13679.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
OK 首先我們必須講說我們政府的角色我認為不是在於說一直發錢一直做補助而是創造一個良好的產業生態那其中最重要的關鍵就是說台灣過去的軟體產業很多都是在做project就是為了單一客戶譬如說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
13679.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
13700.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那個高鐵他有一個什麼專案然後就發包然後這個軟體就寫一次就給單一家特定的客戶使用這種project的這個專案的公司很多但是做product就像說我們GoogleMicrosoftMeta他做了一個產品事實上是針對不特定客戶賣到全世界幾億人幾十億人都在使用像這種軟體公司才能賺大錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
13701.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
13724.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
所以我們現在在AI產業方面我們速發部有五大政策分別是算力資料人才行銷以及資金我們就是希望在這個建構一個產業的生態環境以後台灣能有更多做product的公司我們並不是說要打壓那個做project公司我們不是說做project不好而是說我們必須取得一個平衡我們希望台灣有更多的公司做product |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
13724.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
13751.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
台灣事實上也有做Product公司事實上在趨勢訓練完美移動APPEAR還有TX1等等這幾家公司都是做Product而且都已經賣到世界去了他們事實上規模也都相當大了好 部長其實講到要打造很好的產品打造一個很好的平台我覺得人才是 沒錯剛剛包含其他委員提到人才部分但是我們面對現實這個人才部分這個就業金卡 數位金卡的部分你看在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
13752.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
13777.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
核卡人士裡面屬於數位領域的到目前為止從一開始到現在2025年8月累積的就業金卡的持卡人他的比例數位人才大概只佔6%就是說我們從國外能夠找到招募的人才大概就是6%那這個目前為止從2023年到現在因為數位部比較晚成立2023年到至今為止我們數位金卡裡面針對這個數位人才的就業金卡裡面招攬大概不到1000人900多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
13778.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
13793.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那你每年會要設置150人所以我想這個在產業界的需求有一個很大程度的落差另外補充個數據我們部長也參與了一個會議就是說召開我們今年7月的時候有這個經濟發展委員會的顧問會議有提出AI剛剛提到的新次大建設是 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
13795.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
13822.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這個每年我們希望說能夠培育100萬的人才透過學校要培育11到12萬人的人才我想先講個現實面第一個每年要11萬到12萬人我光現在人口出生每年都快沒有12萬人了大學畢業生可能一年十幾萬那我要怎麼樣你如果等於你的11、12萬等於六成、七成現在的大學畢業生他就具備這樣相關能力然後更不用講現在的出生率這麼低 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
13823.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
13852.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
所以你每年放11 12萬人然後你目標到100萬人但是今天數位部的人才你的目標每年從這個國外邀請來的從這個就業的部分如果你每年目標只有150人這是你們定的目標那這個距離所謂的新師大建設AI新師大建設不覺得這個目標非常遙遠嗎而且到底是誰在管控是數位部的主導還是國發會主導還是誰在主導因為我們問國發會國發會對這個事情沒有什麼設立什麼目標就它沒有一個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
13853.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
13872.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
唯一有數字的當然你們比較認真的沒有數字啦但是這是每年150人可是院又說要一年要培養到10萬 11萬人這個落差到底要怎麼補起來你們要去哪裡找這些人然後還有這個部分以數位人才的部分是你們主導還是剛剛提到過會不會主導還是教育部要主導把我們的科系的設立等等這到底要怎麼做到我覺得這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
13874.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
13895.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
數字講起來都很偉大但是我們如果真的面對現實看到真的來就業的也好或是我們真的從學校培育出來也好這個落差很大部長要怎麼解決你的這個實際的落差分兩部分來回答委員的問題第一個就是人數的問題我覺得現在我們說要多少的AI人才但是AI人才本身的定義是非常模糊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
13896.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
13921.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
之前我就是半開玩笑的就講說如果說會使用ChatterGPT就是AI人才的話我一年要培養100萬個也不是問題但是所以我們現在速發部第一個就是由速產署這邊訂出了AI產業人才認定指引我們把AI的人才分成三種一種是研究型的一種是產業就開發那個利用現成工具開發AI應用的人才然後另外一個是只是單純使用AI來 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
13922.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
13945.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
工具來提升我的效率的人才這是不同的所以我們把它分開定義出來以後我們就能比較清楚的掌握到比較清楚的設定目標這一點我們會改進之前我們政府並沒有一個很明確的一個分類或者是一個分級這個事實上教育部之前也跟我抱怨過所以我們速發部現在已經由速產署訂出來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
13947.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
13971.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這個指引然後接下來我們會在公部門推行同樣的指引這是第一個部分第二個就是攬財的部分我認為說從國外攬財這個還不是我們主要目標第一個我們現在最重要目標是留財因為我本身是台大資訊工程系畢業的台大資訊工程系每年訓練了幾十我那時候是一年五十個現在大概一年一百多個大部分人才都被美國的AI公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
13971.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
13995.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
把它吸走了我先第一個我必須把這些人才留住事實上我前一陣子跟法國商會跟法國駐台大使在聊天他們也講說法國也面臨同樣問題法國最頂尖的AI人才也通通被美國吸走了所以我們現在就是想辦法在台灣建立一個良好的生態系讓台灣自己本身的頂尖的AI人才願意留在台灣為台灣的軟體公司工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
13996.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14023.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
因為我想這個部長剛剛提到光是一個光台大自己每年畢業的人數就100多人那你要一年要培育到你們的目標是就是院的目標是11到12萬這個目標我覺得還是距離非常遙遠啦所以到底我想這不是只有數位部的責任啦可能教育部或其他部會都要訂出相關的這個的範圍不是只有你在努力不然你要一年12萬人就我講的12萬人幾乎快要等於現在大學畢業生的人數了我不可能全部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14024.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14042.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
全台灣的大學生全部都念相關的產業所以這個目標第一個如果你真的要訂12萬那我覺得計畫內容要明確一點不要說只是喊數字如果我們做不到我就覺得不要喊這個數字要務實一點變成這個現實這是我覺得是重要為什麼要講這個看那個排名 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14043.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14059.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
委員長 因為部長你剛上任這也不能怪你但是我們看這個世界數位競爭力的調查評比的排名到2024年我們整體來講是下滑的包含說這個高階人才我們從44名降到49名我們數位科技人才的充足狀況從32名滑落10名掉到第42名 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14060.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14087.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
還有其他當然包含說整個GDP的支出還有什麼研究論文比例等等就是我們在很多的部分還有在移民法規針對外籍的優秀的員工我們的法規從30名也滑落到39名所以說在整個如果我們今天做一個想要做一個科技島不論只有台積電不論只有硬體你現在做一個軟體的重點的培育的大國如果我們的人才我們的移民相關的政策沒有跟上的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14088.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14113.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
當然你就做不到就我講的你一年大學能夠培養多少本土大學生你一定是從國外攬財一定有占很大一部分因為剛剛部長你提到說不會以國外為但是我的建議其實這個人才庫是世界的競爭不是只有台灣自己而已所以我們要想辦法就是說你今天大家為什麼願意去美國或去其他國家因為他可能相對在專業人才上移民政策或是簽證比較好拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14113.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14140.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
那我們是不是也有相關的政策出來這個可能不是只有你的問題這是你要拜託你們去跟內政部也好跟教育部也好跟各部會也好我們怎麼樣提升這個排名的數字因為這個排名是很客觀的數據哪些地方滑落了那我覺得這就是我們數位部要去做的事情好不好 部長好 謝謝好 那差不多 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來再請楊瓊英委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14151.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14153.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
謝謝主席 楊卓雲發言 邀請部長來 請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14160.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14184.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
你好 部長首先請問我們在明年編列的56.5億是要推動促進數位創新動能轉型升級的計畫那你聚焦在整個產業AI化人才的培訓以及AI認證體系跟中小企業運用的四大主軸 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14185.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14213.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那你預估要培訓了3500個這個AI人才那你也預估要帶動50億的投資那2028年呢你認為AI的服務產值可以推進達到100億元但是我們發覺到目前為止我們的AI人才還是短促的是 非常短缺而且非常嚴重那企業跟數位的落差尤其在我們中小企業那麼還是有很大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14213.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14229.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那如果說在整個培訓跟在這個效益方面沒有辦法落實那就形成預算先行那產業沒有動那本席也不希望看到說預算先行結果是產業沒動 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14231.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14246.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那在這樣的情況之下呢本席要首先請問因為現在AI的這個認證相關體系是非常的多元跟非常的重疊那你認為現行有哪些呢現行的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14247.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14275.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
OK 如同委員所講的現在AI的發展非常快所以AI的認證體系非常的多元也非常的混亂所以我們數位發展部的庶產署前幾個月我們就訂出並且公布了AI產業人才認定指引我們把這個AI的人才分成三個階層一個是研究型的AI人員另外一個是利用現有AI工具開發AI模型或AI運用的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14276.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14295.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
另外一種就是百工百業利用AI來增加它生產力的人才讓我們要有更細部在每一個階層裡面我做更細部的指引我這個指引出來以後我們是希望說讓這個AI人才的訓練本身也變成一個產業而且是一個可以賺錢的產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14296.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14311.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
本席請教目前我AI我國AI相關的認證體系是多元而且重疊所以本席要請教你認為目前有哪些你針對本席的提問嗎你要回答是人才現在最重要的其實現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
14312.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
14340.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
台湾产业界也认为最重要就是我们素产署的AI产业人才认定指引所有的其他的那些台湾其他那个单位譬如说基本是了解比如说像具代表性的亚马逊 辉达 微软 Google经济部我们自己行政部门经济部自己也有已经你抒发部现在是委托等于是主管的这个施策会 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
14345.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
14348.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
56.6億元你到底會用哪一套來認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
14351.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
14373.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
你會怎麼做呢我們就在回答這個問題認證就是會依照我們素產署訂的AI產業人才認證所以是你自己速發布再做一套是不是不是那還好那要怎麼做呢我們就是因為有各種認證我們就對齊把它分類所以你是開放性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
14374.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
14394.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
本席這麼解讀是嗎是不是因為你知道現在數位人才他有困境他從要去認證他要去培訓他從初階到中階到拿到這個認證的他希望的等級他光光認證的部分大概要花兩萬多塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
14397.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
14417.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
還有更多的那所以在你的這個部分你第一個回答本席是說各項不管是Google什麼的通通都OK你們都是開放的開放的培訓開放的認證你是如此嘛所以書發部沒有一個像經濟部自己在做一套的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
14418.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
14444.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
對 因為經濟部這個部分我們有跟他就是去溝通那就是我剛才講的我們跟人總還有經濟部我們現在跟人總那邊會有AI人工務人才發展辦公室我原來是擔任副召集人我們就是希望說用同一套認證的指引然後跟經濟部不管是經濟部或者是人總或者是我們產業都是用同樣一套的認證指引認證框架 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
14445.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
14468.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
所以本席提問如此也就是56.5億我們希望要讓願意來培訓的吸引他們會很清楚的那你從培訓到認證就是由我們的政府來協助是不是如此培訓跟認證也可能由民間機關他自己來做因為他就可以很清楚的知道說哪一個等級的他開什麼課然後來上課的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
14470.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
14497.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
但是還是你樹化部會來協助嘛是是 我們會主導是你們主導 然後不一定你政府來做民間單位合作來做嘛 是不是如此是 委員講的完全沒錯那我們也希望一定要因為數位人才是非常的重要陳如你剛才所說的是現在很多元又重疊 而且嚴重的缺失所以一定要好好努力做接下來本席請教中小企業是資安非常重要的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
14498.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
14513.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
而且他們也是最薄弱的我們剛才說的那所以在167家裡頭占我們所有的企業大概有98%的中小企業那一旦駭客入侵坦白講中小企業似乎沒有這個能力去圍堵 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
14514.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
14540.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
大公司或者是可以你也一直搖頭是不可能的那我們政府要怎麼做因為我們看到之前呢那蘇發部我們的這個資安院到底跟經濟部經濟部說我們交給你了那你說你要依你各單位機關的權責去負責資那就變成山不管地帶那到底是怎麼回事呢那怎麼樣協助我們的中小企業呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
14542.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
14560.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
這個基本上我們有幾個政策第一個就是我們情資的共享因為這個駭客通常都是利用新發現的漏洞所以我們現在有一個機制叫TWSIRCC這個就是我們如果發現新的那個資安漏洞的話趕快去給讓所有的企業包含中小企業知道這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
14560.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
14578.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
第一個策略第二個我們是鼓勵台灣的中小企業尤其小型企業他根本養不起那個資安人員更不用講那個或者是那個資訊人員他都養不起那我們希望他盡量利用雲端的產品或者利用現成的資訊軟體不是 你現在這樣講就是中小企業的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
14579.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
14597.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
他們有這個能力所以在你治安法的第四條裡頭你很明確的第五款協助民間處理因應及防範重大滋通安全的事件這是你的本質所以本席提出這一點就是針對167家的中小企業是我們國家很重要的資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
14598.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
14621.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
一定要好好去協助他你把方案給本席最後我給你一個功課10月9號網路詐騙通報的這個部分從9月28號到10月10號共接獲了1萬4千多件那確認詐騙的是5千多件換句話說將近有4成多是確認的那其中META是重災區那麼它高達了86.5%所以本席要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
14627.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
14654.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
該通路的這個部分我們看到它報了35萬件有18萬件主要是什麼形態呢假冒購物名人詐騙跟現實的優惠所以在這樣子的情況之下你們成立了網路詐騙通報查詢的系統裡頭成立一年多來你們對於Meta怎麼樣去做溝通怎麼樣去處罰呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
14655.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
14668.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
OK這樣的一個數字對OK我們當然第一個就是我們在打詐專案法通過以後我們要求他做廣告實名制然後在24小時下校對 因為打詐司法就已經賦予你這一個上方保健了對 我們已經罰他1850萬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
14671.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
14694.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那現在呢他已經繳了一千六百多萬另外兩百五十萬應該很快會罰最重要不是罰他多少錢而是他行為要改變對 他行為要改變那這個如同我之前的怎麼改變呢有改變那個這講起來因為業務報告裡面有報告這一部分他們也努力在協助我們打詐那現在就是我們說服他們加入我們好人的一方我說好人對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
14694.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
14718.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那他現在已經在全球下架了700多萬個那個涉及詐騙的帳號這個當然不是針對台灣針對台灣有430萬個詐騙訊息在他上架之前那個Meta就你看觀光台灣觀光台灣就430幾萬這是真的太恐怖了所以本席也希望我們的打仗不是只有美化數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
14719.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
14741.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們也不希望詐騙的數字一直在上升我希望一定要嚴正的去面對這個問題真正降低詐騙民眾這才是我們要的謝謝感謝陽泉委員跟本席我們很多委員都一起關心這個打詐議題再來請我們邱志偉委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
14756.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
14782.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
謝謝主席 是不是請事務發布林部長來 林部長請施安署蔡署長蔡署長請委員你好林部長跟蔡署長就你們施政報告我提出幾個問題向您請教是這個經濟部會提出一個戲盾那昨天那個金管會彭子偉提出一個金融盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
14783.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
14811.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
盾的部分就是一個加強防衛能力加強競爭力包括這個韌性的提高但資安很重要資安牽涉到國家安全牽涉到產業的這個競爭力所以牽涉到個人隱私所以這部分這個未來整個資安的這個相關的措施 做法 政策應該要建立一個資安盾的概念您同意嗎是 同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
14811.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
14840.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
所以更多的精進作為包括你們今天的這個你們施政報告裡面強化資安的韌性是你們施政主要目標另外弱勢打炸的作為這有關聯性所以我想請教如果你提升一個資安盾的概念你要有更多的預算更多積極的作為而且是有效的作為你才能把這個盾建立起來當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
14841.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
14864.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
所以這個部分你有沒有什麼未來的想法現在的相關的治安的這個作為或者政策就足夠了是 我們主要在治安方面的那個策略當然主要一方面我們是希望說增加我們政府處理這個治安事件的這個量能不管是事前事中事後 我們的這個能量你個人覺得目前的國家預算給你夠不夠給你蘇發部預算夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
14866.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
14887.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
當然我永遠會覺得不夠但是我們有多少預算我們就當然就做多少事當然希望爭取更多的預算那另外我們也會努力的扶植台灣的資安產業希望能利用台灣資安產業的力量來共同守護台灣政府機關關鍵基礎設置以及民間企業不管是大企業或中小企業的資安我們希望是用這種方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
14888.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
14900.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
盾是一個中型目標盾是所有任何的攻擊作為任何資安保護你是做到滴水不漏對不對這部分你覺得離到這個資安盾的建構完成大概還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
14901.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
14930.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
大概完成多少比例以目前來看跟委員報告因為那個資安的事情跟打仗一樣都是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們好人這邊一直把那個各種漏洞都堵住但是那個壞人就不斷的找各種漏洞不管是詐騙的漏洞也好資安的漏洞也好所以才會出現一個名詞叫零日Zero dayZero day vulnerability就是你發現的第一天那叫Zero day vulnerability然後這種新的這種漏洞不斷會出現所以零日總共 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
14931.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
14956.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
永遠不會消失對 永遠不會消失所以我沒辦法講說是哪一天我可以把這個資安頓做到滴水不漏因為永遠會發生主要是做到更好是 沒錯但是永遠沒辦法做到這個最好因為最好是因為你永遠它這個成熟不窮然後日新月異有新的這個手段是 沒錯所以你只能要求自己做到更好是 沒錯好 就您這個施政報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
14957.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
14970.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這個建構台灣主權AI的訓練與料庫是這個要花多少預算這個預算我們請我們的資料是現在建構過程嘛現在建構過程大概要多久完成呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
14971.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
14996.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
報告委員 這個建構台灣的語料庫大概我們今年跟國科會申請大概400萬那我們現在已經在建置這個系統當中同時我們在建置系統的過程當中我們也開始進行部會的這個輔導讓他們盤點資料那未來這個語料庫完成之後他們就可以順利的上架那麼我們預計大概就是說在11月底的時候希望這個第一版就可以能夠上市400萬建構第一版對 沒錯那未來還有第二版 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
14996.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15024.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
然後你這個範圍要擴再擴大而不是只有政府的報告而已對 委員的建議沒有說好所以我們第一版是先以政府機關先行然後在明年度我們更有這個有把握的時候我們會邀請民間一起來參與這個台灣主權AI的語料庫繼續持續努力謝謝那另外第二個問題就是你要加強投資國內AI新創跟數位經濟產業是所以這個國外經濟也同意要匡列100億的額度 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15026.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15044.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
是 100億的額度要怎麼去分配呢你說用專案申請而且你要找一個天使投資機構來搭配嘛 是比方說A公司要申請你們這個新創實施方案他必須先找一個天使投資機構事實上是創投機構不是天使投資不是天使 創投機構1比1投資嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15046.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15072.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
一比一最高可以到一比二政府出二那個誘因的才提高我覺得如果能夠1.5因為AI新創這需要就是資金如果你要找到民間的這個創投也不是那麼容易你的創投如果有投1億你如果可以投1.5億我覺得這個誘因會提高給你們建議再參考一下好不好是 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15075.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15080.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
時間到了這個主席再給我一分半好不好最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15083.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15108.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
這個你們詐騙的源頭的詐騙管制包括網路的廣告平台第三方支付 電商網路連線的這些遊戲業四大產業你從源頭的降低詐欺風險我覺得這部分要有更多的作為就像你說的ZERO DATE的概念要有更多的作為然後讓這個詐騙的件數跟比例能夠金額能夠大幅度降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15110.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15123.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
最後一點點30秒這個執冊會我們蕭副執行長在嗎因為今天黃董沒有來30秒跟您請教就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15125.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15145.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
這個大概林部長您也了解黃董上任之後怎麼樣讓百工百業導入AI的加速升級百工百業包括傳統產業對不對比如說我的選區有金屬扣件在傳統產業你要怎麼百工百業導入AI加速升級這個對他們未來競爭力非常非常的關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15147.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15173.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那當然資策會扮演這個重要角色是 執行長您覺得目前推動這個政策最大的困難點在哪裡未來需要克服的事項還有哪些簡單跟委員報告我們為了呼應AI產業化跟產業AI化我們特別資策會也在台南沙倫那邊成立人工智慧研究所人工智慧研究院 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15174.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15190.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那我們目前遇到當然我們也在蘇發普的支持跟國科會的支持把這個AI導入到產業裡頭去那目前我們執行的部分是在醫療的部分跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15192.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15219.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這個餐飲的部分那我們目前遇到困難的部分呢恐怕是人才不足包括我們自己在recruit人所以人才不足牽涉到預算也不夠對因為預算你們這個因為財化法的關係你們這個預算大概腰斬了一半是所以你要沒有預算就沒有人力沒有人力就不能去執行還有今年今年大概是我們資社會46年以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15220.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15246.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
大概沒有碰過我們的那個預算缺口那麼大的這個請部長再花點時間去怎麼去籌措更多的經費讓知識會能夠發揮這個作用讓百公百業能夠AI升級特別你剛所提的醫療跟這個餐飲所以這部分是不是能夠導入這個金屬扣件金屬扣件你說螺絲啊他也需要AI升級但是他們需要更多的經費跟協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15246.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
15266.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
是 這個事情我們有在努力但是因為金屬構建那邊經濟部那邊也非常的積極所以我們會跟他協調雙方都很積極不是 現在不是問題不在於說我們不處理要讓施設會執行這個重大的這個政策需要給他們更多人力跟經費是 這個我請部長支持好 沒問題 謝謝部長謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
15273.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
15284.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
不只一分半 給你兩分鐘好 謝謝接下來我們請黃婕委員 黃婕 黃婕 黃婕委員不在請尤浩委員 繼續謝謝趙偉 那有請部長好 來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
15305.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
15328.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
委員你好 部長好竹山仁 竹山之光 接著部長希望能夠責任重大來帶領著速發部在我們國內的整個數位提升及AI都能夠持續推動相信許多的政策延續的部分跟之前黃部長相信都能夠有很好的一個延續 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
15329.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
15353.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
他也希望能夠在 尤其像南投縣還有竹山鎮 我們算是偏鄉地方還能夠讓偏鄉 你也感受到地方的需求他也能夠來協助偏鄉能夠持續提升這個數位的落差 能夠帶動地方的進步那也是跟部長您做期許跟勉勵 也跟代替鄉親跟您拜託一下謝謝 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
15353.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
15373.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
剛才延續的邱委員的一個質詢那當然說在所謂的數位或是資安的防護包括這防護盾這個沒有最好只有更好那我們也看到就是今天的話許多委員都有提到央廣的部分那我們同樣也看到在政府機關的許多的一個新聞報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
15374.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
15396.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那在之前也都有看到也有在機關內部使用這個盜版軟體的部分那同時都可能就是一個資安破口那我想就教一下部長像目前在整個行政體系來講像使用這個盜版軟體的這種情況如何那以及目前速發部的這個輔導跟改善方案是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
15396.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
15423.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
OK 當然我們在政府單位裡面是絕對不能使用盜版軟體的那所以我們這邊如果速發部接到任何通報的話我們一定會馬上處理那只是說我們現在有接到多少通報是不是請那個那個資安署署長請回答跟委員報告盜版軟體一定是違法的所以我想不管是政府機關還是民間目前應該都不太會使用盜版的這個軟體這是目前所了解的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
15424.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
15449.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那其實在網路上爬文新聞其實都有相關的例子啦那這有時候的話是不一定是完全說盜版那可能未授權或者是包括甚至共用共享之後那其實同時也產生了許多的資安漏洞那包括在後面的話其實也有一些國防相關系統的也有用到盜版軟體會有這種資安漏洞那後面再來持續救教 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
15449.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
15477.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
那至於說剛才有提到的像如何在這樣子的一個平台尤其是政府機關管理的平台能夠在治安的部分能夠更為落實那像現在即將要在10月11月來做這個普發預案那速發部裡面也有相關的平台來協助這個發放措施那我想這個整個發放的這個是否完全無漏洞那在這個治安的掌控上是否能夠做足百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
15477.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
15503.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
OK 在普發現金這件事情上面蘇發部有兩項的職責第一項當然是說我們要協助財政部順利把資訊系統都做好能順利把錢發出去另外一個職責很重要的職責就是要防止詐騙因為現在詐騙集團知道我們台灣有普發現金的計畫以後已經蠢蠢欲動所以第一個我們要跟所有的民眾要講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
15504.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
15521.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
到時候普發現金的這個事情只有會有一個官方網站就是財政部的普發一萬現金的官方網站你如果民眾要做任何的諮詢或者是填資料或者申請只有在那個網站上才算其他我們不會有第二個網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
15522.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
15551.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
那現在這個網站也還沒正式上線所以現在如果有民眾在網路上看到說它是普發現金的網站那一定是假的所以這個事情我們要請全國的民眾要注意那另外我們也做一些預防措施我們先去把一些做一些巡檢就是說所有可能那個就是那個網址非常相信跟我們的未來普發現金網站相近的這個網站我們都事先去掃描去監管甚至於就把它封堵住避免這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
15552.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
15569.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
詐騙集團有任何的機會當然我們知道詐騙集團一定是很聰明他到時候一定會出一些怪招來搞我們但是我們會持續的警惕想辦法用最短的時間處理掉好 謝謝部長看起來速發部部長這邊早已經做好萬全準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
15570.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
15587.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
那同樣的因為不管是詐騙還有包括這相關的資安平台的一個風險管控那其實重責當然在訴法部身上那也希望說剛才藉這個機會宣導之外那同時也能夠到時候在資安方面以及反詐騙方面能夠務必落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
15587.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
15611.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那再回到地方的議題那在南投現在之前還其實包括風災還就有許多通訊斷訊的一個問題那其實那時候速發部也有協助改善那我們在看到這個我們不管是數位發展程度分類那相關的從盲洞區起步區潛力區到成熟區那其實從 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
15611.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
15640.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
在112年跟109年到112年的部分其實南投一直都沒有辦法能夠到這個成熟區的部分但是像新竹縣的新豐鄉甚至苗栗的竹南鎮他們都有辦法達到了這個所謂成熟區那甚至在潛力區的部分也只有南投四大鄉鎮南投草屯埔里但是竹山都還在起步區那其實在這個如何能夠來提升這個竹山在這個數位發展的這個程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
15641.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
15667.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
OK 事實上我是小時候在竹山長大然後那個老家在路谷那個南投路谷我非常能感受到這個偏鄉的對於那個資訊還有那個網路通訊的需求事實上在對偏鄉的人來講這個網路的通不通比在對城市的人來講更重要因為很多的事情必須靠那個資訊來聯絡但是在偏鄉因為我們設立基地台 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
15668.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
15683.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
對於這些電信公司來講他們事實上是賺不到錢的甚至會賠錢所以我們速發部用兩種方式來補助電信業者就是在偏鄉設立基地台第一個我們就直接補助請他們去設立了另外一個我們就是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
15685.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
15705.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
這個三大主要是這個三大電信公司中華遠傳跟台歌大他們就共同組一個基金然後就由他們的那個賺的錢裡面那個撥出一部分來然後就是由哪一個其中哪一家那個電信公司他比如說到南投的竹山他去設立這個基地台的時候就由這個基金的錢來支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
15707.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
15734.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
因為部長時間有限那我就直接希望把這個偏鄉5局在固定寬頻建設中那在南投縣基地台或者的一個補助的數量跟經費那再提供給本席辦公室同樣的在114年度強化偏鄉地區行動寬頻網路數位韌性及金融基礎實施建置計畫預算2.25億的這個部分南投縣在這個部分能夠被納入跟以及在執行的經費也在提供給本席辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
15735.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
15755.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
沒有問題那也希望說因為像目前來講在鹿谷甚至也還在一個蒙洞區的一個階段是那竹山還在起步區那這兩個地方其實也都是偏鄉那也跟部長都非常熟悉那也希望說在下一次的一個數位發展程度的一個一個評估中的話他們能夠有所躍進是 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
15756.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
15774.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
OK 謝謝那最後的話就是針對假訊息委員會那時候行政院特別指示那在過去去年的7月 11月 12月其實都已經有提到那目前要成立假訊息委員會那會跟NGO來做一個合作那我想問一下目前的進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
15775.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
15793.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
是 這個部分我們現在是由資安院有一個計畫事實上是希望擴大NGO的能量因為我們認為說訊息的真假不能由政府來判斷因為這是自由民主國家裡面一個政府的分際就是說不應該由政府來判斷那我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
15794.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
15809.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
由NGO來做但是NGO它本身的財力有限它的處理能量有限所以我們希望用別的方式盡量來讓NGO它有包含幫和募資等等希望能多利用NGO的力量來打機甲訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
15809.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
15834.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
好那最後的話就是因為行政院在去年的時候是有提到今年假興旗委員會就要上路那但目前來講的進度其實在立法院那時候原本提說需要做一個專案報告包括期程還包括範圍以及NGO以及他主要負責的權責嘛那我在想這個部分還可以的話也提供目前的進度給本席辦公室那後面再持續就好是好謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
15835.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
15847.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
好謝謝來自南投的尤浩委員來自南投的林部長還有也是南投人的趙偉好感謝再請我們賴會員委員繼續好謝謝趙偉我們請那個我們的林部長來林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
15864.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
15890.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
這次丹納斯颱風其實不只是暴露出這個電網韌性的不足通信的問題也一樣的嚴重其實丹納斯颱風重創我的整個大台南尤其就是說我的選區11個選區幾乎就是這11個行政區裡頭完全曝曬在就是沒水沒電沒通信 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
15891.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
15919.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
那就像你剛才講的那一席話我聽了很感動因為來自偏鄉偏鄉的孩子一定非常清楚就是說偏鄉的一個困境沒有通信建設的一個韌性這個實在是大家非常的一個困難你沒有水沒有電他還可以忍耐他完全沒有辦法對外界來做那個救援所以這個讓我們其實在這一次的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
15920.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
15936.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
災難發生的時候這個災區變孤島了我想總統到那個地方的時候也跟行政院長也提醒了好幾次那本席在協調通信車進入災區的時候其實三大那個電信公司就以中華電信最積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
15937.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
15963.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
他提供了17台的行動訊號車有8台的衛星那台客大有10台 演傳有10台可是其實這個數字都還完全不夠況且只有中華電信是在第一天到的其他台客大跟演傳都是在一個禮拜以後就是一直罵一直罵我相信你們也接到很多我們辦公室的一個電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
15966.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
15970.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
聽說中華電信在這一次這一次那個那個災後業績變好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
15972.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16000.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
他真正的有真的是把他自己的社會責任擺在第一線當然中華電信他是不是有把就是說很多賺來的錢放到了一個投資上面我覺得你們對三大電信公司其實非常非常的照顧那是不是要有一個比較明確的一個要求你看補助了這麼多兩億兩千五百萬強化偏鄉地區的一個網路的一個韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16002.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16026.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
好 補助了三家業者 增加三台各增加三台 這一台大概多少錢大概一千多萬 報委大概一千多萬一千多萬 一千一到一千五那目前的進度如何那你們是不是有跨部會 跨部會就是說因為我們知道數位部 你不一定這個你只可以補助他 你沒有辦法管理他 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16027.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16054.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
那NCC管理他所以就是說我當然是要要求你們源頭不能補助這麼多啊那我如果說要求源頭不能補助這麼多的時候真的這個重大災難來的時候我又要他表現得非常好這個又沒有道理啊所以是不是有一套比較好的一個方式當然我們希望逐年編逐年編把它編組可是問題就是說你們怎麼樣去管理他 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16054.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16075.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
是 目前如同委員所說的我們跟NCC的分工我覺得有點太複雜了那我希望說在未來能跟NCC我們把這個責任我們把它定義得更分工跟責任把它定得更清楚這個當然是說還牽涉到行政院層級的一些事情那在短期來講的話我們當然是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16077.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16099.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
如同委員講的這次台南的救災我聽說連救災人員手機都沒有訊號所以在救災都發生一些問題所以我們也請我們任事應司事後做檢討我們發現說基地台之所以會故障會有三種原因第一個是基地台本身倒掉第二個是它那個光纖網路斷掉第三個是電線斷掉沒有電 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16101.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16115.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
因為嘉義縣 嘉義縣導了很多就是他的那個電台那你想想看在我們這個協家北門將軍尤其是我們北門跟將軍我們的去公所的同仁他必須要出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16116.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16134.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
一個小時然後再回到氣功所來這個報告整個災情非常不方便這個實在是讓我們覺得這麼不敢不敢怎麼辦就是從你這邊改善開始一般的一個電線跟通訊的電線都是掛在電線桿上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16134.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16152.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
都是掛在電線桿上面這個電線桿倒了以後你幾乎你這一個就是電那個通訊就完蛋了就沒有辦法沒有辦法就是說去接受到其實如果災難來的時候你看氣候異常這個我們不敢保證說下一次的颱風什麼時候來 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16154.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16170.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
那問題就是說在都會區他恐怕他的資源會多可是如果像在我們這個偏鄉有這麼多的一個困難我覺得這個數位部要想出一個更好的一個方式你怎麼樣全面的提升這個基地台的一個抗災的一個能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16171.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
16197.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這個是非常重要的他能夠抵抗那個16級的颱風然後不斷電72個小時還有主幹線地下化我想還有就是災難發生的時候你要整合跨業者的這個災難漫遊這個災難漫遊你看也是我們這個整個丹納斯颱風是在什麼時候才有這個漫遊出來已經都是超過好像是超過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
16198.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
16219.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
二十幾天 二十幾天才出來了你們已經被我們大家都被罵到不知道該如何去檢討這一個問題所以說部長有沒有一個比較積極的方式可以回答本席其實最簡單的方法因為我們發現說沒有電這件事情最容易解決只要移動式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
16220.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
16234.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那個柴油發電機就可以解決電的問題而且那個基地台故障裡面通常丹麥斯颱風比較特別一般來講最常出現的問題就是沒有電而且那個移動式那個柴油發電機是相對來講比較便宜的所以我們這個先會從這個地方來補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
16236.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
16257.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
對 先從這個地方補強那後續的一個就是你們具體的一個方法是不是一個計畫是不是提供給本席是 沒問題謝謝主席好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝賴委員謝謝部長好 接下來王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在陳冠廷委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
16265.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
16290.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
麻煩請部長部長好那延續剛才的委員提到的這個通訊任性的問題我們繼續來去做相關的實訊那在這次的風災之後我們發覺到幾件事情第一鄉鎮公所有些時候面臨到的是他除了這個沒有電之外甚至有通訊也出現問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
16291.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
16320.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
那甚至連隔壁的就是在鄉公所旁邊也會有消防機關那消防機關也沒有電甚至通訊也出現問題那我覺得這個就不符合我們全社會任性的一個目標這其實是非常嚴重的問題那這一個問題我想把它帶出來的原因是因為除了這個之外還有一些承包廠商承包廠商是負責什麼樣的負責道路的最基礎的勤運他們被困在他們自己的住所出不來所以變成說整個救災的過程中第一個承包廠商沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
16320.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
16323.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
出動重型機具來去把一些重要的道路清空 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
16324.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
16351.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
重要道路如果不能清空不能夠通暢的話那外面的救援進不來那附電附水那回覆通訊的時間又拉長所以我在這邊是希望具體的要求我們希望部長能夠來去跟各個部門來去協調一下至少在負責這些重要主幹道或者是鄉鎮道路或者是這個協助這些第一時間來去回應救災的這些人員他至少要配備一些相關的不管是衛星電話也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
16352.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
16370.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
或者是基本的無線設備也好這個東西是我一直希望是數位部來去思考說要怎麼去解決的部長有什麼樣的看法有什麼樣的解決方案是 目前如果說要衛星通訊的話目前我們書發部採用的是OneWeb系統那OneWeb系統它有幾個缺點第一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
16370.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
16385.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
它的体积比较大而且它的费用比较高我们现在在苏巴布跟国科会积极的跟Amazon的Kyper那边在讨论在商谈看能不能使用Kyper这个新的新系就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
16386.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
16410.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
多一種選擇而且我們希望它的價錢能比這個OneWeb更便宜這是一個部分然後剛才委員有提到一件事情就是主幹道的事情就是我們事實上大部分的那個光纜的那個主幹也都會是沿著那個主幹道鋪設所以我們希望說這個光纜還有電線盡量能地下化就是地下化如同我們剛才講的就是說基地台會故障三大原因那個被 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
16411.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
16434.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
整個基地台被吹倒其實除了丹納斯颱風以外其實在其他颱風發生或地震發生的頻率沒那麼高最多的問題其實是那個沒有電那電線的話就有兩個解決方案一個是說我們就用柴油發電機移動式柴油發電機去那邊有電以後這個基地台就可以運作了另外一個我們就是就近看能不能找那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
16435.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
16449.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
光電或者風電這個分散式的電力供應但是這會有些技術問題這個我們努力的在跟經濟部那邊討論看說有沒有辦法直接用就是分散式的綠電來供應我們這個基地台 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
16453.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
16472.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
部長剛才我提到的有一點就是說負責去清運主要幹道就是說他們是要先有道路通領才會有救援人在水什麼店你要去台電等才能進來我說這些承包廠商自己在家裡就受困出不來但同時又沒辦法聯絡所以我剛才提到的是說你有沒有其他相關的通訊配備未來你要盤點嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
16473.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
16492.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
就是各個縣市各個鄉鎮公所到各個村裡那通常我們到鄉就好了比方說我們嘉義縣有18個鄉鎮那這18個鄉鎮裡面你一開始就是有災害的時候那我們第一個鄉公所就會請人來趕快先把這些道路恢復原狀那他們如果都出不來的話他們甚至我們不知道為什麼聯絡不到他他也聯絡不到我們所以這個指揮的節點 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
16494.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
16518.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那就是有一個空白點嘛所以我的意思是說要盤點就是說從各個鄉鎮公所從通訊指揮的系統上面你必須至少要點對點剛才我們提到72個小時也好24小時 48小時也好如果遇到大規模這就是雲嘉南地區那如果是遇到全台灣市的整理的這個狀況的時候那就沒有辦法我們就可能沒辦法期待說72小時他也會辦法復原那這時候你就變成要調配 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
16519.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
16543.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
哪些有優先順序那優先順序裡面的哪一些指揮的這個連結的系統那就是點對點而不是全面性的網路跟電話恢復那這是在國家安全的前提之下我們必須要思考各個不同的優先次序所以我們當然是可以講說我要72小時我甚至可以要求延長到108個小時但是你沒有辦法在每個點都無限延長你沒有辦法在每個地方都配備柴油發電機 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
16545.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
16570 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
就是你的柴油要怎麼樣去分配你的柴油放電機怎麼去分配你怎麼樣把這些柴油再運輸到那個地方其實這是要整體去思考的所以優先資訊還是很重要那我們接下來來討論一下這個韓國資料庫燒毀的問題這個我覺得也很重要這個最近的國營韓國國營的資料中心因為火災導致大規模總共有74個單位是9萬1000公務員共同使用的雲端資料的資料都遺失掉甚至政府運作它是一度中斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
16570.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
16597.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
如果我們在備援上面有任何這樣子的問題這是我們要注意的那根據現行規範這個公部門的屹立備援是30公里但是國際上包含先進國家大概是在100公里以外這是我最後一個問題不好意思稍微讓我問這個問題那我想請教現在我們是30公里但國際上是100公里那如果是在同一個地震帶的話甚至是你就在隔壁的話那這個狀況是怎麼樣去處理可不可以請部長簡單回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
16598.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
16623.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
OK 簡單來講的話就是我們現在除了在台灣國內的意義備援以外我們也會做雲端的備援就是最關鍵的那些資料最關鍵的那些政府的系統我們會備援到雲端所謂的雲端就包含在那個國外的一些那個Data Center我們這個國外的Data Center平常我們也不會說開放民眾使用所以我只是想確認在韓國發生的事情不會在台灣發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
16624.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
16651.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
OK 韓國那個事情有三件事情我都覺得很離譜第一件事情就是說為什麼他會把所有的政府機關的資料中心通通集中在一棟大樓裡面因為韓國跟我們一樣他有一個非常不友善的鄰居他怎麼會做這個事情我覺得非常不可思議第二件事情是他居然把不斷電系統的鋰電池跟電腦系統放在一起依照我們台灣政府的規定我們事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
16653.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
16679.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
備用的電源像鋰電池這個你是不能跟那個電腦主機放在一起的結果他們就是因為這個電源放在一起起火 鋰電池起火那第三件事情就是他們居然很多的部門沒有備援沒有異地備援這個事情我們覺得說非常奇怪我們一直覺得說韓國是一個先進的國家韓國在許多政府的資訊化屏蔽裡面好像名列前茅可是他居然在這個事情上面居然做成這個樣子所以部長以上三點我們都不會發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
16681.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
16709.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
對 應該我們就確保不要發生就好這三點我們你剛才已經提到這三點那就不要讓它發生那第四點就是說包含消防設備的點檢就是定期的去檢查包含這些因為那是相關重要的這些機密機械那可能也不是用一般的消防防備去做那我知道內政部過去在一些重要基礎城市都有派警察去但是我下次質詢內政部的話可能就說不是警察而已還要包含消防的消防人員的這個設備人員要怎麼樣去盤點也很重要好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
16710.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
16731.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
謝謝委員好 謝謝好 接下來請羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員高金素美 高金素美 高金素美委員好登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
16732.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
16748.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
委員林國成鎖庭書面質詢列入記錄並且刊登公報3 委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請速發布 盡速以書面答覆本日會議已進行完畢明天繼續開會現在休息 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
16776.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
16793.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
響鐘 |