| IVOD_ID |
16945 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16945 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-15T08:35:53+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-15T11:55:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:19:07 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc81c79e81327dd8bc2e5b1f8578c5ec75b5dbf79f23f633bb52331dc9ada5b2635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。【10月15日及16日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:53 - 11:55:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員10人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年10月8日星期三上午9時1分至12時32分10月9日星期四上午9時1分至12時19分 |
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1644.393 |
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地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等13人列席委員賴世保委員等15人列席官員10月8日法務部部長鄭明謙等人10月9日考試院秘書長劉建新等人主席汪昭吉委員小林 |
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1645.174 |
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1667.457 |
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10月8日報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫並備質詢本日會議由委員黃國昌等16人提出質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關競輸送交個別委員及本會10月9日報告事項 |
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請問各位上次會議議事錄有錯誤或者遺漏或者 |
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有意見沒有沒有錯誤跟遺漏我們醫事錄就確定剛剛比較不好意思我們現在立法院電梯也慢然後上來樓梯也小比較急所以遲到了一分鐘那我們現在介紹待會場的委員跟應邀列席的官員我們先介紹在場委員第一位我們看到黃國昌委員 |
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1737.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
還有王逸川委員還有陳培宇委員那接著我們介紹應邀列席的官員那我們監察院秘書長直指我們副秘書長代理叫我們王貞華副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1739.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1743.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
還有監察院業務處黃議員處長監察院調查處楊昌憲處長公職人員財產申報處處長程美妍處長秘書處處長張立亞處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1758.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1771.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
綜合業務處處長江玲玲處長還有會計事主任程雅慧統計事主任程勝能人事事主任劉家慧政風事主任楊華欣 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1774.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1796.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
内政及族群委员会主秘杨华璇主秘外交及国防委员会主秘林明辉主秘还有社会福利及卫生环境委员会主任秘书施真阳主秘还有财政及经济委员会主秘邱瑞之还有教育及文化委员会主秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1796.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1822.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
李雲 交通及採購委員會主秘葉明勝 難得來啦那也讓我們立法院來認識一下監察院的各主管那司法及預證委員會主秘程仙成 主秘國家人權委員會執行秘書周小涵執行秘書監察委員紀律委員會執行秘書鄭旭浩 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1831.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1834.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
還有法規研究委員會代理執行秘書楊順慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1839.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1856.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們本次會議週三、週四兩天一次會議我們議程的排定是邀請監察院秘書長來列席說明立法的計畫並被質詢我們現在進行報告請監察院王副秘書長來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1866.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1892.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好大家早安很榮幸能夠應邀到貴委員會來報告監察院的立法計畫請主席各位委員多加指導監察院是依照憲法跟憲法徵修條文的規定為國家的最高監察機關刑事彈劾糾舉及審計而且可以提出糾正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1893.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1916.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
前述的職權的行使除了審計權另有規定外定有監察法以為依循國家人權委員會於109年正式成立以後致力於該會的組織法第二條所規定的各項職權為善盡及促進保障人權的職責落實憲法對人民權利的維護建立符合國際標 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1918.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1937.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
準的人權規範本院推動修正監察法增列人權委員會的職權行使專章以及嚴定相關的法規該法案已經送到貴委員會希望能夠盡速的審查以完備國家人權委員會的法治基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1938.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1954.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
此外 本院肩負促進連任政府的職責雖然不是公職人員財產申報法 立沖法 振現法及遊說法等陽光四法的主管機關仍主動積極向主管機關提出實務上執行的問題及意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1957.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1969.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
並且與貴院審查該等法案的時候充分表達資訊提供修法意見以下就扼要的報告有關於立法計畫跟修法意見的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1971.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1987.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有關監察院的立法計畫的情況第一個要說明的是有關於監察法的部分條文修正草案希望能夠增列人權專章為了使國家人權委員會行使國家人權委員會組織法第二條所規範的各項職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1989.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2014.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
有所依循而且符合巴黎原則所揭示的職責與國際接軌發揮國家人權機構促進及保障人權的功能本院依據立法院在108年12月30號三讀通過國家人權委員會組織法的時候所做的附帶決議拟據了監察法部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2016.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2044.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
並經第十屆 第五會期司法及法制委員會審訊交付黨團協商為未能完成三讀本院已於去年113年的7月15日再度提出草案送請貴院審議並於113年9月20日經立法院的會議一讀交付司法及法制委員會審查期盼能夠儘速完成立法程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2044.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2065.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第二部分是有關於陽光司法的部分陽光司法是財生法、立沖法、政憲法及遊說法主管機關分別為法務部跟內政部本院雖然不是陽光司法相關法律的主管機關但是法律掌理陽光司法相關的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2066.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2090.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
業務在執行業務的過程中如果發現有摯愛或者是應該要修法要改善都會主動向法律的主管機關提出修法的建議意見並積極的參與各有相關的修法會議其中政治獻金法修法草案內政部是在一百零九年的六月三十號已經函送給行政院來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2091.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2118.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
統計到114年的10月本月2號共計行政院已經召開過11次的審查會議可是還沒有完全審訊又有關於遊說坊的主管機關內政部也是在110年的4月29日已經幫已經將遊說坊的部分條文修正草案送到行政院來審查行政院也於隔年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2119.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2141.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
1月26號召開會議已經審查完成後續將由內政部依照會議的決議向立法院這邊先行溝通以希望能夠順利完成修法在此感謝貴院對於本院的支持協助本院諸多憲法所賦予的職權以及其他的事項還有相關的業務的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2142.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2150.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
監察院當積極的發揮監察職權致力保障人民權益維護社會公義以上報告敬請指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2153.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2181.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好 謝謝機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容我們請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘那必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間5分鐘並不再延長那我們上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2182.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2183.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 謝謝主席麻煩有請監察院代理秘書長請代理秘書長戴秘書長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2202.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2230.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
今天看到監察院114年度的立法計畫其實大概這幾頁你大概自己看完也知道監察院的立法計畫就是今年度也其實沒有什麼立法計畫一言以蔽之就這樣子同仁也蠻辛苦的還想辦法寫了三頁我看了也是蠻佩服的其實一行字寫出來監察院本年度沒有什麼立法計畫這樣就好了然後寫了一堆 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2232.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2253.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我也不曉得該說是形容詞還是副詞不過沒有關係也為難你們了雖然沒有立法計畫監察院還沒有裁測該做的事情還是要做監察院在進行調查事項的時候面對行政機關如果行政機關提出虛偽不實的文件監察院怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2256.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2282.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
包委如果說中央或者地方的公務員或者是公務機關涉及到違法失職監察院會依法因為違法失職就比較抽象在你們進行調查的時候提供虛偽不實的內容文件算不算違法失職如果是認定屬實的話如果是認定屬實我帶你來看之前針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2284.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2305.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
有關於在綠能發展的過程當中很早期我們的蔡英文政府在嘉義的役主搞了漁電共生漁電共生那個時候是浩大喜功風光簡采官員業者排排站拍的照很好看 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2307.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2329.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
然後告訴全台灣人民的是農業經營結合綠能專案發展計畫魚電共生基本上它的本質就是在魚池上面搞光電板繼續養魚提高整個漁場他們基本上的收益或者是說在發電上面它可以提供的貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2331.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2360 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
如果說漁電共生對漁業的養殖不會造成破壞對環境生態不會造成破壞好好搞沒有違法濫權沒有胡搞瞎搞我相信人民也不會反對但大家在質疑的事情是說民意上是漁電共生搞了半天只有電沒有漁簡單來講就是以漁電共生當作民意當作藉口當作幌子 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2360.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2386.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
在養殖池上面搞光電板可是根本沒有養魚的事實台南嘉義一族全國第一個最大也是蔡英文政府大內宣的漁電共生場我們來看一看去年11月立法院考察嘉義一族漁電共生案場接下來請戴秘書長仔細看 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2389.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2400.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
經濟部檢報 我把它框起來了檢報單位是經濟部台瀝綠能布袋一族光電案場第一期現刊檢報單位經濟部那右手邊是檢報的內容我們看一下檢報的內容檢報的內容在那個漁電工商案場裡面的F區裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2415.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2442.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
養殖池 養殖中 蓄水中 蓄水中然後裡面呢 F池看一下你下面看的數字有泰國蝦 有鱸魚2470公斤 472公斤 4717公斤全部都把它列出來了這個是本院去年11月的時候去考察的時候我們所看到經濟部簡報提供出來的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2443.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2456.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但我那時候看了這個簡報我很狐疑 我非常狐疑我為什麼非常狐疑因為我那個時候台尼加遷漁電共生的那個案場我自己有去過現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2458.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2486.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我自己去過現場我看完了以後當然發現很多問題但我今天跟監察院有關的我只講一件事情我們經濟部的簡報告訴我們去考察的立委都有養魚 有養蝦甚至還有產量連幾公斤都寫出來了可是我後來就覺得很奇怪根本沒有魚魚在哪裡結果我後來發現原來在我們去以前不是在我們去以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2487.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2509.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
去年11月去的嘛2024年5月嘉義縣政府就認定F區沒有養殖的事實叫它改善 還沒有改善12月的時候也就是我們考察完了以後它廢止它的許可那我現在問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2511.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2530.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
經濟部的官員在立法院下去考察的時候針對有沒有養殖的事實這件事情竟然提出虛偽不實的內容來欺騙下去考察的立法委員這件事情算不算你剛剛所講的違法失職監察院要不要辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2534.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2558.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
根據剛剛委員所提供的資料如果相關的事證經過調查的程序是有所認定的話是違法施治那沒有關係我今天就公開跟你講你再回去轉給監察院的委員知道因為我講話有憑有據的有白紙黑字有照片不是隨便站在那邊信口開河隨便亂噴 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2559.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2567.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
然後去年我也問過另外一件事情無償提供動產不動產是不是政治獻金無償提供是政治獻金嘛是政治獻金沒有申報要不要開罰依法處理嘛那我們來看我追IMB詐騙的案子我追了非常久 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2588.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2609.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
宛如狗吠火車第一時間我出來講的時候大家都說我胡說八道 我亂講問題是什麼 照片很清楚房子我找到了 車子我也找到了蔡英文從OPPO羅都會員會2020年的禁辦無償提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2614.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2618.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
無償提供者是IMB詐騙主嫌曾耀峰不僅車子是提供的連這個競選連任羅東後援會的禁辦都是無償提供的按照你剛剛的說明這是政治獻金嘛但沒有申報啊沒有申報就違反政治獻金法啊然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2639.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2661.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我去年3月11號問前秘書長呂靜玉 李靜玉說這個IMB案我們現在監察院也正在立案調查當中調查完了嗎調查完畢已經提出調查報告已經提出調查報告確定是監察院的那個部分是調查完了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2662.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2686.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
監察院的部分 是 我們調查完畢彈劾了哪些官員沒有彈劾 他有提出調查報告沒有彈劾任何官員沒有彈劾糾正了哪些機關糾正警管會IMB的詐騙案耶這麼嚴重的官商勾結耶還跟詐團聯手耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2689.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2714.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
政治人物還接受詐欺集團的供養結果沒有彈劾任何機關戴琳秘書長你覺得符合人民的期待嗎我為什麼問你這個問題今年你們要辦追加預算的時候你有來找我嗎說希望監察院可以運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2716.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2745.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
有一些事情你們一定會好好做你說你接代理秘書長以後你會好好做我其實那時候承受很大的壓力我把我們要把你們全部刪掉的單子我同意撤回我還記得那天在這邊協商國民黨我們現在在場的傅棍吉總召很生氣清楚的表達國民黨的立場了以後他也對我這樣的決定覺得非常的狐疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2746.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2774.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
但我們做事既然要承擔就承擔我給你們機會我們希望你好好做但你們繳出來的成績單要我們怎麼跟人民交代要我們怎麼跟人民交代給了你們的錢有好好做事嗎R&B這麼大的案子政治人物接受詐欺集團的供養 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2775.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2794.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
結果搞了半天沒有彈劾任何人符合社會的期待嗎第二個問題你們那個時候說這個要等到刑事案件偵查結束確定到底這個是非法的政治獻金還是賄賂再來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2797.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2824.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那現在呢 主嫌之一啦我之所以強調主嫌之一啦是按照我掌握的被供養的不是只有陳歐珀啦但沒關係 主嫌之一我們就先講案件的主角陳歐珀就好了陳歐珀也被起訴啦起訴香港法的部分啊就那個部分他也沒有認定是貪污啊那在這樣子的情況之下非法政治獻金的部分你們什麼時候要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2827.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2854.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
可以委員早安這部分我做一個說明那個IMBA的這個部分我們有跟檢方這邊做聯繫我們也有發文過那麼他們這部分還在偵查中還在偵查是所以監察院的態度是說如果刑事有啟動調查的話監察院這邊就沒辦法動對 我依法我先確定那個部分如果沒有賄賂的問題那就回到我政治現金 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2855.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2884.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以偵查多久你們這邊就要等多久我這樣說應該沒錯吧是沒錯在體制上你們很無奈你們必須要這樣子做我們依照現行法律規定怎麼做沒關係我現在是給你機會說明謝謝你看我語氣比較強一點但是你細細咀嚼裡面的字句其實我都要給你機會可以好好的說明你們現在為什麼處於一個停擺的狀態這樣聽得懂吧是OK好上一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2885.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2901.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
在針對有關於整個預算停擺的時候大家也關心一件事菅委濫用公務車開什麼玩笑拿公家的錢坐公務車去搞私人的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2902.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2925.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這件事情你們的副院長說要移送紀律委員會結果後來發現大家說馬上移送紀律委員會我不曉得是笑話一場還是在欺騙社會結果紀律委員會任期7月底到了就沒有然後了8月的時候然後你跟我說新的紀律委員會會重啟調查當初你跟我講的話這個就是那天協商的現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2927.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2931.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
記得非常的清楚我公開問你 你說九月份會處理現在處理的進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2934.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2961.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我先回答有關於公務車的部分我上次報告的狀況是接下來9月份的部分紀律委員會有書面的質詢也有約詢相關也有調閱相關的資料然後也有請相關的單位做調卷等等的作為然後應該在10月份調查報告的初稿已經出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2961.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2972.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
出來了 沒有啦調查報告出來歸出來嘛就像我剛剛問妳的嘛對 還沒審查對 妳有的時候有調查報告但也沒結果嘛所以10月會有結果是嗎是 這個會期喔這個會期啦 在審預算喔 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2977.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2995.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個會期在審預算監察院的作為因為我剛剛已經講了嘛你們明年度的立法計畫一片空白嘛我就講一句話就是沒有什麼具體的立法計畫這樣就講完了嘛那大家就看監察院的職責是不是有依法履行嘛這個事情對於我們啦在行使各項職權的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2997.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3023.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
大家都會納入考慮因為我們民意代表在審查預算的時候不是在做私人人情這跟私人都沒有關係不是在做私人人情 站在公的立場監察院的表現如何是不是值得納稅人在花錢讓監察院去做事情這個就是立法院憲法上面的職責要把關的事項他站起來了 你要講話我OK但是他站起來了 現在是他舉手要講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3026.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3046.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以你讓他講話等一下你不會讓我講話嗎不叫你們不要講話你們就可以講話我想跟黃委員補充報告一下有關IMB的案子他的調查意見裡面有這樣子寫到就是有關於檢方對於公務人員與IMB的主嫌有 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3046.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3074.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
社交往來的情況有立案偵查作為所以我們的調查報告調查意見是函請法務部與前階調查作為結案後你們那個調查報告真的很會寫得蠻文雅說有社交往來的狀況IMP的主嫌曾耀峰在宜蘭的那個招待所我還沒有回來立法院以前在宜蘭的招待所的照片我都貼出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3076.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3099.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
裡面是什麼交通部的官員台鐵的官員曾耀峰坐在裡面剛籌交錯而且還利用立法院排去宜蘭考察的時候考察完一團人帶去他的招待所去招待所談什麼去招待所談啊這個台鐵閒置的土地啊怎麼跟曾耀峰啊這個詐騙集團合作來開發你們有查出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3106.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3134.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
還一般社交行為啊一堆官員被帶到曾耀峰的招待所在談台鐵的土地開發開什麼玩笑啊你們偵查院那個調查報告能看喔我說話我負責啊那天去哪些官員跟曾耀峰談什麼在裡面飲酒作樂 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3136.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3145.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
可以這樣搞喔結果交給你們查 查了這幾年查了什麼出來一般社交活動這樣子寫不會覺得丟臉喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3148.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3174.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
不好意思 我沒有要繼續說 他要說 所以我要回我要讓召委知道 我很尊重你的議事主持這樣可以嗎好 謝謝這個工坊也很精彩本院委員依法提出質詢監察院裡面也各有所思一來一往 我們也欣賞一下也很好 你也要不卑不亢謝謝 我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3187.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3190.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
麻煩代理秘書長請代理秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3194.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3218.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 代理秘書長早安那我想有一些問題還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西其實延續會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題因為我剛剛聽了他的東西之後我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問就我現在先提一下我想監察院他在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚那我國五權跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3218.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3235.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那它有非常多的權限其實是本來是在許多國家它是交給立法權在執行我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚那我現在提的一個點就是高雄跟台南最近有很多光電的BR還有一些濫墾的東西我想新聞都非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3238.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3260.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
政府還有一些特定的人他很喜歡講台灣是小小多山的國家但是我們現在看到的就是我們這個小小多山的一個地方但是山被爛挖那這個溪也被埋了那到處地下線成一個坑山頭也都光電板水庫也都光電板我現在看到的是這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3262.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3285.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土汙染不是山河破壞失守他們看到的就是顏色 誰執政該什麼樣的人執政他要處理什麼樣執政他不用處理我好像聽說好像現在又開始昨天還今天有人又去貴院去檢舉黃國昌的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3288.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3309.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
監察院的存在到底剩下什麼這是我對於監察院的一個質疑那我先來跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子在陳水扁執政時代2003年那時候那個高雄觀音山濫墾的奸案當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3311.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3329.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那個時候的監察院他卻積極的調查而且他後來他還有公開糾正對於縣政府對於國財產局他都公開的糾正而且要求立刻復育立刻拆除違建立刻恢復地貌這是過往的監察院是長這個樣子但是我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3331.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3353.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我們不用講別的一個恩恩案就好了恩恩案為了打那個為了一個總統選舉然後莫名其妙那個時候監察院跳進去再打恩恩案我那時候在新北市政府擔任法治局局長所以所有的東西包括監察院來調什麼資料全部都要經過我的手我一清二楚那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回覆給黃國昌的說法完全不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3354.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3376.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
你回覆給黃國昌的說法是這個案子司法調查中所以你們就沒有查那二案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的司法調查歸司法調查我監察院歸監察院所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3378.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3403.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那當時我也提出這個疑問啊我說過往不是司法調查中監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎那監察院給我們的回覆也是公開的回覆說沒有 這兩個是不一樣的東西甚至接下來的日子裡面監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題等一下就跟記者講如此的公開 如此的透明 如此的民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3404.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3425.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
但是現在什麼都不一樣現在只要講到跟綠營好像會傷害到他一點全部都不公開全部都我調查中全部都說尊重司法監察院不能如此雙標啦監察院是憲政機關耶所以如果你們這種玩法你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手現在政府很厲害有司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3428.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3452.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
當打手 又還有一個監察院當打手滿手的武器在對付在野黨過往 我想提幾個例子過往發生的花蓮的長良林道的水保案件台東的山坡地的濫墾案件還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子其實這些案子都在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3454.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3469.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
可是我們看到的是對於這些藍營執政的縣市監察院狂打猛殺但是我剛剛提的那些高雄台南的這些光電弊案這些濫墾濫伐我卻沒有看到任何動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3470.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3499.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個就是嚴重的雙標而且我剛講那幾個案子有一個還在2023年花蓮的長良林道的那個案子還在2023而已這就是嚴重的雙標好 那我來 我跟你們講一下你們今天不能夠說藍營執政的縣市你們雷達就這麼靈敏迅速的處理但是綠營執政的縣市呢就完全沒有聽到好 那我想請教一下那對於這一次高雄還有台南這幾個濫墾濫伐還有這個光電案請問貴院有開始再調查了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3501.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3516.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
跟委員說明有關於高雄地區那個濫墾就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分呢我們已經有委員在發函了解先收集資料這樣子好 那可不可以像恩恩案一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3517.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3536.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
隨時都對外公開因為檢查只有檢查體系有偵查不公開監察院沒有第二個即便是檢查體系在涉及社會重大公益案件也是偵查不公開的例外是可以公開那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度尤其對於這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件是否可以公開進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3538.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3563.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
然後另外一件就是有關於光電板在水庫上面做水面的那部分然後或者是颱風過後以後大概有13片的光電板那我們已經有委員調查但是你沒有回答到我問題啊我說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣隨時隨地的公佈連今天問了公務員什麼問題我被教訓監察院問了什麼問題馬上記者就知道你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3565.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3581.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
委員說明一下因為有監察法第26條其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定那可是監察法26條是有限制調查人員就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3582.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3604.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以在恩恩案的時候監察法26條就不見了在現在監察法26條又出來了我在這邊跟各位報告 跟你報告那個案子我就等於是當事人之一嘛所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事啊那當時為什麼就沒有監察法26條呢更何況監察法26條都沒有講到檢調或司法機關那監察法施行細則27條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題所以我在這邊跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3611.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3628.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
您說一下監察法26條跟監察法施行細則27條其實都沒有這問題其實你們早就應該要公佈而且很多案子都要去進行調查因為你現在跟我講的東西你做這樣的法律解釋OK 我現在尊重你做這樣的法律解釋但是你現在的做法跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3629.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3641.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
過去你們在調查恩恩案的時候的做法完全不一致那我要相信誰我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢所以這個我想我要跟你說明一下另外我再跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3643.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3662.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
還有幾個問題有四個大坑現在大家都在講美濃天坑第二個坑碼頭山棄置案第三個大樹爛墾光電爛窪案件第四個大平頂保護區變柏油山還有好多案子昨天高雄市政府有出來講澄清這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3663.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3680.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
對不對那我覺得很好他出來澄清可是監察院是不是也應該要進入調查因為不是只有公務員違法監察院才要出來公務員待遇執行職務監察院也要介入所以不是只有違法會出現監察院而是待遇執行職務的時候監察院也要出來我想我有沒有講錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3682.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3704.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
委員說的完全正確就是監察院是代護職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍然後我可以說明一下美濃跟大樹你不用跟我講調查的內容你需要的是公開調查內容我今天在這邊跟你不是就個案的細節去討論而是就你們就通案的制度上面有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3705.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3727.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
所以我今天一直點你的是 恩恩愛你們不停的公佈連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人你們的進度到哪裡那我也跟您說 提外話 我跟你講我現在突然想 我自己小時候我爸媽會逼我背唐詩誦詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3729.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3748.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
背了才給我零用錢我為了打電動跟買零食我就會去背那些東西小時候我背我不懂很多東西我都背那個音而已我現在我都突然想到我以前背那個杜甫的那個村望那個村望那一首詩第一句 國破山河在我們現在台灣變什麼國在山河破我們現在國家國還在但是山河破了 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3754.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3775.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以我現在能夠深深體會國破山河災痛苦的是皇帝痛苦的是政治人物但是國災山河破痛苦的是百姓我想請問一下政府你為什麼要給我們百姓這麼痛苦你為什麼要這麼傷害我們這些人民所以我現在看到的台灣是國災山河破所以我一定要提出這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3778.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3792.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個如果你們像你剛剛說的你已經在調查了是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說第二個您剛剛提到的監察法26條及適應細則第27條這兩個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3797.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3812.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
你们回去看一下在恩恩爱爱的时候你们怎么处理的以及刚刚你怎么回应黄国昌的你们可不可以做出一个定论不要恩恩爱爱的时候一个做法今天一个做法法规的解释永远是看自己心情看自己觉得今天该解释成什么样 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3813.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3836.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
尤其是過去你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的券完整的同樣一套交給監察院當初你們是這樣要求的那像當初的這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣這個是我很有意見的一個地方那最後我想請問您一個問題公務員懲戒法第二條監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3842.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3867.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
對政務官我們可不可以移送懲戒可以對不對好這個沒有問題那我想我再請問一個問題如果有公務員不管政務官事務官不依法行政監察院應該要不要介入調查要可以調查好那我再請問一件事情如果今天行政院院長不依法行政貴院有沒有立案調查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3868.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3885.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
跟委員說明目前我們沒有這樣子的案件所以我們現在知道一件事情就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算不依法行政但是貴院沒有立案調查我這個結論有沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3887.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3915.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
目前沒有錯我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候貴院其實一直講一件事情包括我們在國會改革的時候貴院一直講一件事情說監察院的監察權是不容踐踏必須要存在要監督這個國家但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有謝謝你今天跟我講原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3915.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3936.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
第二 再來 請您記得一件事情我國憲政制度 五院平起平坐監察院不是行政院的小弟請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案今天行政院院長是違憲 違憲 違憲他根本就是違憲 但是貴院卻完全不處理我今天看到是這樣 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3938.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3947.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
今天你們不監督行政權明天人民就會監督你們所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在因為我們必須要開始監督監察院好 謝謝好 謝謝吳宗憲委員有夠好康的 貝殼斯你爸爸就給你零用錢我小時候都要去看股 你知道嗎我看股也沒有零用錢來 我們接下來請林倩琪委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3972.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3978.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
好 謝謝主席莊昭偉我們請司法院的代理副秘書長請代理秘書長代理秘書長 副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3983.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4009.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
委員早安 委員好早安王副秘書長本席今天先針對監察院內部的一個經費的這個部分來做一下跟您的討論所以我這邊要問到的是你們在115年營建工程向下有一個預算編列那麼根據第六款第一項跟第六目的第一節營建工程向下有一個房屋建築及設備費 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4011.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4039.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
今年整個的編列增加了2668萬3千元增幅相當的明顯我再看了一下整個細項的內容其中在國定古蹟區域等相關的維護工程下114年就是今年應該是300萬元但是下一個年度你們卻增加了413萬9千元增加到413萬9千 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4040.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4064.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那增幅高達了37.97那如果只是單純的例行維護或古蹟保養的一個支出那麼應該是年度的常態性預算那怎麼會有這麼明顯的一個增列那另外這邊我就提醒的你們應該注意的是這個預算不是唯一涉及硬體設施的支出115年你們另外還有編列改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4065.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4084.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
或興建消防系統工程3600萬元然後以及中央空調通風機監控等相關系統的改善工程103萬4000元那麼在有其他像重大改善工程以及編列預算的情況下為什麼在 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4085.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4107.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
國定古蹟區域維護還要同步的大幅增加你們有沒有檢視一下裡面有沒有重複編列或預算性質混淆或者是名目重疊的可能性所以針對這點本席請教一下我們代理秘書長 副秘書長你們新的年度這個國定古蹟區域維護工程跟歷年有什麼樣的不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4108.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4136.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那第二個部分你們部分工作是不是跟消防系統改善或者是空調系統改善的範疇交疊那整體改善工程在進行為什麼還要再進行增列的維護經費那麼第三個部分是你們可不可以提供一下你們工程的一個評估報告那你們這個維護的需求評定文件跟歷年維修紀錄給本席來檢視一下針對本席以上所提的這一點好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4139.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4141.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我分點來說明有關於國定古蹟的專案維護工程應該是413萬9千的這個比嗎對 400多萬的所以它的增幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4155.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4175.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那是因為我們是一級古蹟是個國定古蹟那其實照顧跟維護這個古蹟它通常是要按照相關的一個文資法的一個規定來處理一定是依照文資法的所以本席這邊提出來就是說你們這個增幅相較於去年那這樣子一個例行性的維護這個差別在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4176.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4202.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
對 有些細項我來說明一下比如說是它是專案性的要汰換老舊的空調設備因為這就是我的問題因為你們另外還有編的空調還有消防系統的改善等於是你們這邊已經編了但是你們這邊另外我講的那個部分國定古蹟區域的相關維護工程你們也有在增加這個部分是怎麼個有沒有重疊的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4203.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4223.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
是沒有 完全沒有重疊因為監察院呢是有國定古蹟還有同時國定古蹟的區域嘛 範圍區域而已另外還有還有其他的那個辦公區域那不是屬於國定古蹟的範圍所以呢有關於中央空調那部分是屬於國定古蹟以外的中央空調也是要調整其實因為現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4225.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4243.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
對 但是本席這邊所問的是你們今年的300萬然後增加明年到了413萬那這中間在這個國定古蹟的例行性的這個部分你們是增加了什麼樣的項目然後我另外問的是就是說那個消防跟空調系統的這個部分如果是您所講的辦公室的這個區塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4244.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4272.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那這中間的一個差別是在哪裡最重要的就是那個國定古蹟的這個部分你們增幅最主要今年跟過去的例行性你們是增加了什麼樣子的一個項目其實也是因為它的空調是老舊必須要變得等於是你在國定國定古蹟的範圍裡面你們要處理空調嗎還有相關的供電設備跟電源線路還有還是同仁這邊要不要來補充一下簡單的補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4274.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4299.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那但是最重要就是說你們可能整個工程的評估今年為什麼要這樣做那那個跟歷年來的維修紀錄也是要給本席檢視那你現在先簡單的說明一下好不好我先簡單的跟委員報告一下剛委員所講的古蹟的一個修繕從200變300那這個部分對就114年是200115年是300那這個部分呢它是屬於預案你們115年到413萬吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4304.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4322.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那是不是你們把相關的資料是不是檢視完然後好好的再說明一下吧國定古蹟區域它是屬於專案它不是約案執行那專案的部分國定古蹟區監察院有新大樓跟國定古蹟區那明年的413萬其實我是針對國定古蹟區西翼二樓的空調老舊空調去做一個一級的節能減碳的一個汰換 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4331.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4351.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那其實監察院這幾年都逐步在針對國定古蹟區的一個空調做分區的一個汰換那未來會汰換到新大樓所以這聽起來是例行性的所以專案它是專案不是例行是專案例行性的吧你每一年針對這個專案有去做一些處理嗎只有這幾年是這個專案然後這個空調汰換老舊空調汰換結束以後就不會有這個屬於這個專案了所以我們是把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4358.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4372.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好的 本席這邊的問題就是你的增幅蠻高的所以你是不是針對這個汰換今年跟去年的一個比較然後來跟本席做一下說明那最重要你是不是相關的資料先給本席可以那之後我再確認一下這個部分好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4373.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4397.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
接下來本席要提到一件事情是跟監察院之前有一個報告是原住民族的司法權益去年8月王美玉監委有一個調查報告針對全國地檢署原住民的特約同意與別跟人數還有實際需求的嚴重失衡有列出一個報告裡面提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4398.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4412.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
原住民的族語有16族語和42種方言但是目前檢察署特約同意只有7種語別但是上個禮拜本席問了法務部長他說現在有8種但是基本上還是有一大半都還是沒有語別 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4413.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4427.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
沒有辦法用母語或者是如果檢查體系沒有辦法了解母語陳述後面的邏輯那整會剝奪整個他們受公平審判的一個基本權益所以本席也跟法務部這邊提出了補強的一個質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4430.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4454.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
但是基本上整個語別還是非常的確如所以這個全面檢討制度跟通盤補足語別與人力的配置的整個進展還是遠遠不足所以本席要請教您監察院是不是有持續追蹤這個調查的後續情況那麼有沒有要求行政院法務部具體的提交改善期程跟執行的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4455.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4475.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
本席在這邊強調依據原住民族基本法第30條的明文規定我們國家是有義務來提供足夠的族語通譯不能由執行的人員來自行判斷免除所以在司改國是會議的決議也已經要求來建立完整的原住民族司法通譯的這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4476.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4493.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
今天早上的質詢我聽到幾位委員其實是針對雖然你們有一些報告但是在後面的一個執行上在過去你們會彈劾但是後面的一個追蹤這是本席現在關心的一個重點所以這個部分是不是鳳鳴林這邊有沒有一個什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4494.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4509.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就是跟委員說明我們提出有關於那個同意的部分其實不管是第六屆還是第五屆都有相關的調查案這是有關於司法正義上面非常重要的制度那這個做法就是現在你們針對各單位目前做法的一個進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4509.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4533.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
了解 那有關於這次的調查報告在去年提出來那王文宇委員會持續根據他的調查意見會持續追蹤 會監督我們也還沒有結案會等到得到訪問部有完整的回答我們同意了以後才會做結案的動作現在目前還沒有改善完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4534.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4538.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好的 那是不是可以請你們在你既然還沒有結案那是不是在這個進度的追趕上能夠去督促每一個單位請他們還是有實際的一個期程那當然本席知道中間可能還是會有一些困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4549.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4573.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
基本上為了一個司法的公平我們知道族人常常在一些表達上還有司法人員訓練對於語言邏輯上的一個理解其實還必須要更為多元 更為寬廣所以在國事會議裡面的決議也應該要求了完整的原住民族司法的通譯制度你們的國家人權機構也應該好好的來落實人權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4574.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4596.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
最重要不是只有停在那個專案報告後面的做法是非常重要所以最後本席這邊提醒司法正義一定要從當事人能夠以自己的魔慾及他的邏輯能夠被充分的理解那司法體系的理解語言的邏輯文化應該要更為普遍也就是說對司法人員的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4598.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4617.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
對於語言文化的這個理解可能要有更進一步更寬廣跟更深度的一個訓練那請司法院務必追這樣一個進度好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琦委員我們接下來請王宏威委員宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4628.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4631.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好,謝謝主席,我請一下副秘書長請副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4637.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4660.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
副秘書長好今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫我必須說因為其他相關的部會有相關的立法計畫其實都蠻充實的你們的立法就感覺非常單薄但是相關的有一些我待會兒來跟你就教 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4660.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4683.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
有一件事情因為非常重要就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害也就是馬太安菸塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情也造成嚴重的傷亡到目前為止整個的救災過程仍然在持續中而這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4684.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4695.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
到目前為止我相信沒有人會把它單純定位為是天災而已你認為是單純的天災嗎有沒有人禍 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4698.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4722.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
跟委員說明有關於這個晏賽湖溢流的部分呢這個災情監察院有立案所以現在監察院您剛說所以你們定位為不是單純的天災而是應該有人模不章的問題對不對現在有委員在調查那請問一下你們什麼時候立案調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4724.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4743.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們依照院裡面的公文的日期是今年的10月2號10月2號調查現在這個調查是由監察委員主動來申請調查的嗎是的是哪幾位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4745.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4765.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
抱歉委員因為委員沒有授權幕僚行政幕僚可以對外說明照理講過去很多的案件監察委員會主動申請調查這個都不是秘密是可以公開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4766.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4790.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
說明一下我們這樣好不好我給你一點時間好不好請你幕僚單位趕快因為既然已經10月2號已經立案調查那我們當然要外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查這個不是秘密所以可不可以就是至少在我們整個的今天的會議結束之前能夠告訴我們委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4792.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4814.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
跟委員說明我知道是哪幾位委員調查可是因為要依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明我只能說明說這個案件監察院在10月2號已經立案調查有委員在調查中我是公務員我還是要依法為之 謝謝所以我還說我給你們時間因為過去很多委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4819.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4842.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
自己都公開說我要主動申請調查這件事情過去太多案件了這也不是第一次所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下盡量能夠在我們今天會議結束之前來通知我們委員會為什麼在這邊當然現在監察院已經有立案調查但是為什麼我們也想了解是哪些委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4843.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4854.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
因為剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到因為我們現在覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院太過配合行政院我們希望能夠在這次重大事件裡面監察院有沒有機會有沒有機會能夠有肩膀的能夠真正的去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任然後他們的疏失是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4869.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4877.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
做出合理的處置才能夠引招公信才能夠去跟所有的災民來做交代因為在這個案件裡面其實我們根據相關的法令很多法令其實定位得非常的清楚包含整個的菸塞愛湖馬太安溪的上中下游它是由包含分別為農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位來主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4898.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4919.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那包含菸塞湖的處置監測也是由農業部還有疏散因為這一次呢在行政院的部分就責於地方政府的部分就是在於說疏散疏散有瑕疵但是疏散的相關的權責應該是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4922.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4936.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
應該要獲得釐清所以今天監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院還有地方縣市政府之外你們應該是公道博但是老實說 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4938.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4963.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我也很擔心啦 根據過去的監察院的記錄你有沒有發現 過去很長一段時間像這樣的書是照理講 很多包含立法委員也好 很多民意代表也好縣市政府也好 第一時間一定向監察院先去澄清 對不對要求監察院趕快立案調查 啊這次沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4964.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4991.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
為什麼沒有因為對監察院不報信心了那我本來想說趁著今天我還是對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心我認為監察院應該要介入做調查所以你可以看到最近以來其實監察院前面我想已經沒有什麼人過去去做去做陳情了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4993.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5019.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
說明我們今年的所說的陳情案七萬七千多件跟歷年或第五屆相較並沒有減少而且還微幅增加有微幅增加是不是但是要求你們比如說來自於立法院民意代表或縣市政府縣市議會去要求你們針對針對行政院的部分這樣的案子其實真的大幅減少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5019.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5023.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我的意思就是說希望監察院能在這個事件裡面能夠發揮你們的角色因為這裡面太多其實依法很多就是從馬太安溪、菸塞湖、蘇散的路線以及收容所的整備還有包含你撤離的警報單這是最近大家熱議到底誰是主管這個撤離的警報單 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5047.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5059.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個過去其實都有全責的劃分包含撤離警報單是包含是內政部 農業部 經濟部跟地方政府共同決議但是主管是誰 這點非常重要10月2號立案調查我覺得這個確實有人禍的問題而不是單純的一個天災問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5072.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5099.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
另外剛才我又就叫我們監察院副秘書長你們現在有修法計畫其中有政治獻金的是政治獻金法這一塊可是看起來按照你們這個時程最早最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法的修正在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日韓宋行政院審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5100.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5105.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
到了今年的10月2號再召開第11次的審查會議我想請問副秘書長在我們這次大罷免裡面其實選罷法也好或者政治獻金法也好我們出現太多的疏漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5117.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5131.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
太多法沒有去明確定義而造成太多的在灰色地帶其中就是有關於政治獻金這一塊那尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象我們覺得最 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5134.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5140.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
最不平衡的地方就是我們遵守政治獻金法因為在大罷免罷免是都不能夠去接受政治獻金因為我們是被罷免而且我們是立法委員我們必須守法不知道幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們我們的罷團 各個罷團 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5160.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5173.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
整個的有關於政治獻金募款亂象重生裡面有自己 像我自己的罷團裡面在群組裡面直接的在做募款那還有其他的罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5181.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5198.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
就質疑說這個募款之前的領銜人或之前的主導人募款募款到哪裡去了然後自己內部就吵起來了在大罷免過程這就證明他們確實有募款好 那更不要說在基隆市長謝國良罷免案裡面後來出現爭議罷免團體透過募資平台去募款到現在資金流向不明 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5207.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5227.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
好 所以這麼多的亂象政治先進法本來就應該修正有疏漏所以我請問副秘書長在這次政治先進法的修正裡面這是你們極為極為極為少數的要修法的你們內容很少請問你們要怎麼修 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5230.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5255.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
就是剛剛委員所了解的就是其實行政院在修法的過程中監察院都有積極的參與因為我們是完全執行政治先進法的機關我們雖然不是法的主管機關可是完全都是由監察院來執行所以我們的建議就是在這次修法要對於政治活動第二條政治活動的定義必須非常的明確有沒有包括罷免的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5256.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5277.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
你們的意見是什麼 包包和罷免呢我們是認為應該要包括罷免當然應該包含罷免 選舉罷免 選舉罷免是 那跟委員說明如果包括罷免 它是有一整套法系必須要修正那如何開專戶 那誰能夠收現金的部分政治現金的部分都是一套的法都要 鳳鳴署長 因為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5279.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5289.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個因為選舉我們台灣這個民主社會已經選舉大家經驗非常多而且那個政治先進法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹很嚴謹但是這次罷免法我剛講亂象重生 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5294.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5310.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
也都罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道來自於哪裡也都不知道雖然比如說包含我們行政單位或者我們民進黨立法院同仁一天到晚在講國安法有沒有什麼反滲透法有沒有什麼境外勢力你這邊根本連法都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5317.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5332.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那罷免 發動罷免 他的錢從哪裡來都不知道 而且你們根本不要管不願意管所以你們的現在的修法的方向是把罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5334.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5350.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
等同選舉一樣 在政治先進法裡面是不是把罷免等同選舉它就選舉 我們選舉的活動它的相關的政治先進的規定應該完全適用在罷免上面這是不是你們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5354.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5382.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
不然的話實在是太亂了雖然很多人說這次大罷免可能絕對是空前有人說可能絕後了啦不會再有這種這麼胡搞亂搞的這樣的一個政治活動但是很難說喔很難說喔哪天誰曉得這個民進黨又覺得哪一個他輸不起又想發動大罷免的時候又重新來過也未必不可能發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5383.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5400.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以為了我覺得因為我們是通過大罷免即便什麼我們說我們拿到無敵信心但是我覺得制度一定要建立那請問一下你所了解這個有關政治獻金法你們的修法期程在什麼時候可以送到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5403.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5429.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個可能還是要尊重這個按照行政院的流程那目前你什麼都尊重行政院我覺得好奇怪你好像行政院監察部是不是還是行政院監察署委員我不懂我們剛才就在講說你監察院跟行政院是你應該從基於你的職責你認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治陷阱的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5429.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5451.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
然後你要求先你們有你們意見然後要求行政院趕快做修法宅隊尊重尊重行政院是你長官嗎我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見而且非常的嚴謹那也都參與那因為這個法的主管機關是內政部他還是依照法制的程序就是你剛剛講你是執行機關我是執行機關對不對你說搞不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5452.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5468.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
搞不好明年再來一個大罷免你要怎麼執行然後大家都質疑你 不是嗎所以請你趕快也回去就這個政治獻金法你們是平行單位要求行政院儘速提出送到立法院來審查好嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5470.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5485.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 謝謝王宏威委員其實王委員這個詢問其實是很有道理的但是應該是他只問到一面現在是你罷免發動罷免的領銜人跟被罷免的人其實都要一併去談 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5486.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5510.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
確實是這樣你說是亂象我也認為是一個現在整個法制不足的地方不然我也聽到一大堆被罷免的人到處去募款那現在這個也都沒有法律的一個規範那確實是法制讓他把它補起來這對監察院來講或者說對執法還有對我們本院來講的話送到本院來做一個審查這個也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5511.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5516.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
很有必要的一件事情 接下來請省發會委員來做詢問阿川你待會不能走你要代理一下主席 我們請蜂蜜請代理秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5539.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5550.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我想這個就延續剛才王宏威委員的質詢在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的適函為什麼你們修法你們什麼時候要提修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5552.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5576.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
但其實這個觀念這個我想剛才我們副秘書長一直在台上一直要解釋但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋因為這個修法雖然你們是執行機關但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關修法都是要由主管機關提出來對不對那這個我們的這個這個政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5577.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5606.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
內政部是內政部不是你們監察院嗎不是當然當然啦我們監察院是這個是這個執行的核心機關但是但是主管這部法的主管機關就是內政部所以如果要修法就是應該有內政部提出來所以內政部他送行政院院會這個就是這個程序我們不管有多強烈的意見不管我們認為說什麼時候現在就應該要修現在派就說現在就應該修但最後依照法制還是你們不能監察院自己送一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5606.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5631.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
政治獻金法修正案進來 不行啊主管機關不是你們 對不對先把這個部分說清楚所以就不要說這個因為自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣拿來這裡找監察院來出氣我覺得也是不對我們今天是針對我們監察院的這個相關的立法計畫來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5634.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5653.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個專案的會議那這個我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分一個是監察法一個是陽光事法大概你們所提出來立法計畫就是這個那所以我今天大概先就也是一樣針對這陽光事法的修法的幾個部分來跟來就教副民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5654.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5677.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
剛剛有講到陽光市法公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法主管機關是法務部另外兩部政治獻金法跟遊說法的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5679.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5705.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對不對 是嘛那這個但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論包括王國文委員所大家在這邊這樣討論其實他就暴露出這個制度上面的一個重要的缺陷就是你們不是主管機關但是卻是執行機關核心的執行機關那這樣子讓你們這個承擔這些制度的回饋政策建議的這些責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5707.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5719.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這些跟主管機關就分離了責任跟主管機關分離之後這樣子的制度切線我們有沒有什麼樣的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5720.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5745.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
能夠建立一個針對這樣子的你們核心執行的這些相關的法令能夠有一個回饋的執行上面的回饋機制讓主管機關你們固定的或者什麼樣的執行的回饋的機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面你們認為法令上面應該要做修改應該要做補強了有沒有這樣子的機制有沒有想要想辦法來建立這樣的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5747.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5775.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
跟委員報告就是說因為我們是最主要的執行機關所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有摯愛的地方那我們都會主動的就跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來那通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見那一定的時間會證比如說像財申法其實監察院有很多的意見法務部也都接受然後提出正式的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5776.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5801.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我想這樣子的我還是希望說能夠有一個回饋的機制一個常態性的回饋機制讓這個才不會讓這個法治主管跟執行去脫節那我看你們這個有關陽光事法的部分你們提了修法這個相關立法計畫包括政治獻金法包括遊說法就是這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5804.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5827.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
但是有關公職人員財產申報的部分申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是沒有認為應該要修法的地方因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治先進法就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請出你們是不是沒有立法計畫目前沒有針對它有修改的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5830.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5848.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
報告委員 法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分監察院沒有提供意見我們都有提供意見那你在這個書面報告上面有提到沒有提到公職員財產申報法監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5848.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5861.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那我現在就公職員財產申報法的部分來提出一個我個人認為說現在必須在修法上面是不是能夠來補強的就是有關於公職員財產申報法第二條第一項這個第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5864.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5888.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
代表政府或公股出任司法人之董事及監察人他必須要申報財產但是在公法人的部分公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法的第二條第一項第七款有納入公法人有納入利益迴避但是沒有納入財產申報這個在制度上面有焊隔的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5889.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5911.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
公法人他長期接受政府的補助運用公帑來執行公務他這個具有公權力延伸的性質還有這種公共責任我個人認為說是不是應該我們這個公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報的範圍這部分是不是請我們先請監察院這邊表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5912.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5938.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
是 报告委员有关于行政法人法因为出来以后那财政申报法没有跟着修正但这部分我们也觉得非常必要所以我们13年的时候我们也有建议那么目前在这个财政申报法修法正在一个法务部也已经开过两次会那这个我们都有把它建议进去有把这部分纳入公法人部分纳入因为法务部廉政署他在102年初在12年前出了一个解释就直接解释说 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5938.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5965.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
公法人的這些總監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面對不對那這個經過12年這時也引起社會上蠻多的質疑跟批評那這個部分我希望說我們在公主院財產申報法的這個相關的修正我們監察院應該要表示這方面的意見這是第一個部分那第二個部分有關於財產申報的部分按照這個財產申報法的第11條這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5967.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5988.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
各受理財產的申報機關應該要進行個案以及一定比例的查核個案是一種 一定比例是一種按照個案查核 按照比例查核這兩種查核這個11條也授權你們制定了一個辦法你們制定了一個公職員財產申報的資料審核及查閱辦法這個查閱辦法裡面的第7條 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5991.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6010.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個第七條的第二項你們提到就是說這個所謂比例的查核是每年申報總人數的5%對不對這個是你們按照抽選辦法定的所以所謂比例就是5%嘛而且是所有抽查總申報人數的5% |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6012.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6018.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那這部分我是覺得應該要這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6021.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6044.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個你們按照這樣子的比例5%的比例來進行這個比例抽查那個案的部分你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查對不對有個案檢舉你們有隨機抽隨機抽的部分應該算在比例裡面吧所謂個案就是有個案檢舉的部分才是個案的對不對現在現行是不是這樣個案的部分是指說 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6046.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6064.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
檢舉或者是法務部他定期會把涉灘的案件的起訴書給我們那這部分我們也會去看他的內容然後做一些個案查核那這個我個人認為欠缺的一個部分就是說有關於這種你們用這種固定的比例跟這個靜態比類方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6066.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6090.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以很多公主人他可能會透過信託、境外帳戶、虛擬通貨這些新型態的這種方式來進行財產的隱匿那這些部分你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的包括法務部移送包括個案檢舉你們才做個案的調查我個人認為說這樣子是不夠啦因為事實上你們應該要建立一個機制有一些職務他是高風險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6091.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6120.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
他是有關有這個高風險職務譬如說負責採購啦還是這些補助的審查的這些政治現金的核銷啦政黨資金運用這種都是屬於高風險的你們應該在這部分能夠提高比例啦而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查我認為說這樣子會會很不確實很不確實所以常常出問題了之後才發現說你們根本就可能他已經擔任公職20年30年但是從來沒有被抽查過 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6121.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6145.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以這個部分是不是我們能夠能夠跟這個法務部共同來研商一個風險的分級的查核機制我認為建立這個是必要的那另外還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分是有關於這個政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範沒有規範那這個沒有規範這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6150.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6166.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
其實這個公子園財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入要申報了但是這次現金法沒有這次現金法沒有的狀況你譬如說在直播平台的donate這些線上的贊助或者是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6170.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6192.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個相關的這種規避規避這個隱匿透過網路平台來規避或隱匿這個捐款來源的這種狀況在現在變得非常普遍尤其是直播平台的donate這種現在都不在我們政治獻金法的規範裡面但是在公職員財產申報裡面要報政治獻金法卻又不規範這樣子的法制民主黨認為沒有問題嗎副民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6196.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6206.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們在我們給行政院的修法意見已經把斗內跟虛擬貨幣等等的的意見已經已經提給行政院政治獻金法的部分嗎這個這個有提出來這部分還是應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6212.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6241.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我個人認為這個部分是等於是法治的漏洞這部分也就是說我們監察院認為這種數位的募資應該要那包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治監禁法對不對好這個部分請是不是你們這個有關於這個直播的平台Donate線上贊助虛擬通貨甚至這些NFT數位資產這些東西你們相關的這些法律見解跟這個監管的立場是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會好不好再拜託你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6241.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6250.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好 謝謝謝謝沈發威委員 接下來請王逸川委員詢答好 謝謝召委 我們請代理秘書長請代理秘書長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6272.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6295.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
你也不是監察委員所以問你個案也沒什麼一啦我們一些制度上的問題就你的了解或者是看法第一個就是說我們公職人員在做財產申報的時候現在大部分用自然人憑證那第一次申報第一次申報的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6297.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6323.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
監察院有沒有什麼方法可以防止第一次申報的時候他漏報了就他不是故意的就是他就漏報因為第二次以後他就抓去年的是要抓上一次的就可以了第一次的就第一次要申報了因為很多的政務官是第一次當政務官那他申報他也搞不清楚有沒有什麼機制我舉個例子譬如說像我們現在報稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6326.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6337.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
報稅我們就是輸入相關的這個什麼身分證之類的然後他就告訴我說我去年領了多少什麼所得然後他就幫我算完 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6338.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6364.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他就問我說你要標準扣除我 列舉扣除我 這樣啪啪啪 就跑出一個數字那個是國家告訴我那我認為國家告訴我的好 那我就付錢嘛大概是這樣可是我們在做財產申報的時候第一次財產申報怎麼讓這些新進的要報的人不會你到最後收到一個通知說你漏報了一個東西因為你們會提出漏報代表你們手上有答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6366.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6386.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
說明一下 就是我們申報財產現在可以財產借接以前只有定期財產申報可以借接現在已經開放到所謂的第一次申報就是公職人員的就到職申報也可以財產借接前一段時間因為監察院的預算被完全刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6387.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6415.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以我們就停了一段時間從3月到9月都停了那9月以後又因為爭取到追加預算所以我們從9月開始恢復那從9月到12月會有三次的財產借接的基準日所以可以方便所有的公職人員他的就到的申報也可以用借接的方式透過借接的方式可以比較正確的瞭解參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6416.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6441.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
相關的財產身份證好 那他借接完了他也沒改就送出去了那你們會不會說他有漏報就是如果他被查核的話不是 那他是借接的他是國家告訴他說他有這些財產嘛那他怎麼辦呢各位說明有些財產是沒有辦法借接的我說可以借接的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6442.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6468.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
可以接接的話 如果說我們因為會去裁罰他一定是認定他有故意申報不實不管是直接故意 間接故意對啦 你認識他故意嘛 對 我們會考量因為公務員啊 政務官第一次如果接到監察院通知他說你漏報了一筆什麼 他會很緊張啦因為他很有可能因為他第一次擋碼 第一次申報然後呢 他也沒有故意啊他是國家告訴他說 他有這個財產 然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6471.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6476.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
沒跟他講說他有另外那個財產然後結果你就說他漏報了這個要怎麼避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6479.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6508.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我就刚刚跟委员这样子说明就是说如果是使用院里面的借阶的方式得到的财产资料那参考相关的资料以后来申报除非是不能借阶的财产那那个比如说像市人债务比如说现金啊什么租宝啊对不对对像这些那如果是我们借阶的资料原则上我们会去审慎的考虑然后会尽量不要去认定它是故意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6508.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6523.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
OK因為這個有些人第一次收到會很緊張說當公務員然後接到監察院寄信給他他當然緊張第二個沒有申報的政治獻金是不是政治獻金沒有申報的政治獻金是不是政治獻金先要去界定是不是政治獻金那個當事人說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6536.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6563.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
才去說他應該要如何就當事人說是但是他沒有申報不會因為當事人的好那我就簡單舉一個例子比如說我當了一個政務官那我兩個月以後要退了假設我當了兩個月以後這個我就不能當政務官也許是這個任期到好那就有善心人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6564.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6568.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就說 你做什麼長就做到不錯 體育這麼年輕還要大展長才啊 還要創辦公室啊 要裝潢啊不然這三百萬放去裝潢啊那時候也沒有選舉期間嘛 沒有選舉的都沒有啊他收這三百萬 收起來 還在工科機關的辦公室收起來 收起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6592.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6603.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
對監察院來說 他收這張紙是什麼概念監察院 你不要講到司法就是說這個監察院關你們什麼事有沒有 跟你們有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6604.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6632.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
委員那個第一個能夠收政治獻金是有一定的條件跟身份的那只有擬參選人是可以收政治獻金那如果說一般的政務官不是他不是擬參選人然後不是在選舉期間沒有開專戶他是不能夠收受政治獻金依法不能收受那如果收受那我請問這個動作是不是給政治獻金這個要看個案的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6633.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6637.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好 要看個案的判斷那當事人講政治獻金也沒有用不會受到拘束就是在監察院的認知裡頭非選舉期間在監察院的認知裡頭非選舉期間也不是你參選人在你們的認定那個都跟政治獻金就無關了收受政治獻金不可以收受政治獻金那你們會不會認定他是政治獻金 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6663.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6678.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
抱歉委員我們還是要個案才能夠判斷所以有可能要個案要個案好那接下來就是我們這一個所謂的政治獻金有沒有規範到各政黨的黨內初選那個政黨因為可以長期的收政治獻金如果設了專戶以後就可以長期不是我是說政黨內部 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6693.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6709.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
內部 如果說是你參選人我們現在只能用期間給他所以如果他的初選期間在比較早不是在可以收政治獻金的期間他就不可以收政治獻金那我收政治獻金來黨內初選可以嗎是不可以的不可以不可以 對就我為了黨內初選我來開個專戶喔我也在你們認定的範圍內喔這樣範圍內當然可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6721.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6745.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我可以在範圍內開一個政治獻金專戶然後我拿那個錢去參加黨內初選可以如果說今天他是在我們政治獻金可開立專戶的期間那他的這個收的他就可以設專戶收政治獻金跟支出這個都不會違法OK好那我再請教一個問題是監察院可以彈劾立法院的院長嗎那可以彈劾行政院的院長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6752.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6776.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
可以彈劾司法院的院長嗎可以就是立法院不可以是 對 他是民意代表那就是中央及地方的民意代表都不是監察院行使職權的對象不可以提案彈劾立法院院長不可以彈劾立法院院長行政院 司法院 考試院都可以那可以彈劾監察院院長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6777.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6801.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
可以 他也是只要是政務官就是我們職權行使的對象只要有違法行使就是只有立法院院長立法院跟各級地方政府的地方議會中央地方的民意代表都不是監察院的職權行使對象好 那立法院的國會助理立法院的國會助理歸不歸你們管 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6803.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6830.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他除了說我說陽光示法的部分也沒有都不歸監察院管都不歸監察院管他不是中央或地方的公務員OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝王一川委員好 接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6834.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6836.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
謝謝 有請我們代理秘書長好 請代理秘書長代理秘書長好我想幾個議題要來請教就是說整個國家人權的行動的一個計畫裡面其實是對我們整個監察院來講的話也是重要的一個課題那我在看到你們在10月3號 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6857.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6880.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
監察院去發布了新聞稿說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及到強迫勞動事情有沒有善盡監管跟嚴厲因應對策監察委員 王委員 賴委員他們也去申請自動調查那我看這一陣子都是聚焦在於整個人權計畫裡面聚焦在整個外籍義工的部分遠洋漁業那其實呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6883.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6888.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
不管是歐盟也好或者說我們監察院整個人權的一個計畫也好那這個對於整個勞動的人權確實是一個值得去關注的一個重要的議題但這個過程裡面其實以本席來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6902.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6903.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎連這個人權團體我就沒有一點名了有時候到我辦公室來來拜訪我的時候我當名我都給扶上去你知道嗎因為每一個人關注面不同這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6918.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6922.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
勞動人權這個確實值得我們繼續去追求讓它更進步但是在這個過程裡面其實對於產業那種打擊那種打擊也要特別去謹慎以我在看元陽醫院來講我看幾個組織來找我的時候我當面跟他講我說你們每次都去講說這個傳統去虐待這些外籍勞工講這個住的環境也不好然後他反問我說難道不是真的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6947.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6965.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我說對一半但其他對於這些漁民來講的話他們那種憤怒你們都不知道第一個你像譬如說我要去抓魚了我不管是要到南太平洋或者說我要到大西洋去抓魚或者說我要到摩尼西斯去抓魚你去把它看我要到這個漁場之前我這個船我從東港開始開我要開到漁場要開20天這20天裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6973.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6975.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我跟王瑜孫我們兩個都是漁工我們兩個就是在那裏擲轎 擲噴囊 喝燒酒這幾十天還沒有到漁場 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6981.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7002.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
睡覺就是這樣子而已那到了漁場以後呢拚了好傳統就跟我們說拚下去我們有獎金嘛看下去就一直抓啊所以我們當初在審一例一休的時候本席都一直持反對態度我說要謹慎要謹慎每一個產業是不同的那在這個過程裡面你像比如說到了漁場以後啊那個都是一定是玉石工作啦橋櫃洗乾啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7005.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7020.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
勞工也很喜歡 你知道嗎 抓了有獎金然後前面這20天 我們都是在那裡休息而已很正常嘛 產業就是如此嘛那後來你會發現 喔 這個人權團體就提出抨擊了你看這個漁船裡面 讓這個外籍漁工住得那麼差傳統人都跟你講說 我這漁船耶 我這不是郵輪耶我這是要去抓魚的耶你那個廁所是不是很糟糕我祖母 你就按照政府的規定就是只能這麼大 你叫我怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7035.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7058.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
你叫我怎麼辦所以我的意思就是說追求人權的一個進步保障勞工這好但是這個過程裡面其實也不要去傷及無辜這個過程裡面其實互相拉扯到最後達成進步是非常好的一件事情但是本席為什麼特別提到今天真的你們新聞稿拿出來講就是說美國的海關跟他們的邊境保護局就CPP |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7059.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7072.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
在9月24號對我國的自行車龍頭巨大 就吉安特 大家都知道的就變成對我們這個戰扣令就是暫停輸美的一個不能讓它出口那這對我們台灣製造來講的話首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7080.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7098.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
不是只有國家形象的問題還涉及到整個對企業的一個影響那美方這一次的一個指控裡面說這個強迫勞動指標就講到有濫用弱勢惡劣工作條件還有債務扣押還有扣薪跟超時的一個加班這個對我國的產業人群治理確實是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7099.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7113.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
警訊但是企業他本身也非常負責任的他說他在9月29號就透過美國律師跟CPP去溝通然後10月下旬也將到赴美去申訴我就去了解了經濟部跟勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7115.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7137.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
經濟部 到勞動部 到我們外交部就整個國家政府就動起來了都開玩笑 我這企業龍頭我省省的東西 什麼你只敢說我違反勞權議題然後你全部都罵我出口所以呢 他們就我們經濟部 勞動部 外交部也開始在協助他們並拜訪監察院然後呢 聘請國際獨立查核機構來展開這樣的一個評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7141.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7155.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
他公司內部其實也去從2025年1月開始去實施的零招聘費被他指控的部分人家一一去把它做一個更完善所以本席要提出來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7156.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7172.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
監察案去做這樣的調查不是壞事但問題是我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是你經濟部或者勞動部我們國內的勞權的勞動的法規到底跟先進國家尤其跟歐盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7173.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7179.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
你這個政府機關你到底有沒有去給他更明確的一個指引這樣才對啊你覺得他現在要調查的不是針對三件事三件事現在美國把我們禁了之後你現在又去啟動調查你會讓我們國內的一個企業會認為說我就在說啊你政府又來給我補我一刀我要講的是人權絕對不能馬虎但是我們國內的企業我們不能倒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7201.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7209.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
現在他給我們禁了之後你覺得他這個時候會讓業界會覺得心都涼掉一半我不曉得戴移民主黨的看法是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7210.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7234.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
剛剛委員報告現在有關於這件事件監察院有調查那人權委員會有發聲明那監察院調查的部分就是委員的重點我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂的經濟部或者是勞動部的部分這才是監察院的職權範圍所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7237.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7242.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
至於說調查後的一個結論是如何尊重我們會尊重我的意思就是說當國內企業遭到 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7247.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7254.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
美國這麼大的國家在禁運的時候我們要特別去小心你像譬如說他這次不是只有針對台灣美國政府對我們來說當然是美國對我們是很重要的一個國家但是這個政府你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事你知道嗎他也一直要求說你這個大企業你全部到我們現在多少台灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7273.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7301.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
你不從 我告訴你他有他很多的法寶本案要特別小心我就不做 因為調查當中我就不做任何的一個影射啦那但是呢 就是說我們監察院其實你說沒有功能嗎他可以有很多功能啊我是很想做幹部員我都沒有辦法有雙重身份啊不然來講的話你像譬如說我們都可以幫企業把這個整個政府部門該做的指引這樣的一個制度漏洞我們把它補起來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7303.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7328.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我如果嚇到我會覺得說你中華民國政府你對我的勞動的條件規定是這樣子啊你怎麼可以因為說歐盟或者說美國你說我沒錢給你了我還要去用禁運我就遵守法律啊那這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想我們自己的法規我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣的一個潮流那這個也是監察院可以好好去補補漏洞的一個地方啊那所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7330.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7340.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
人權把它顧好是絕對是一個好事台灣製造這個在國際上我們面子當然也要爭可是問題是我們監察院該幫幫我們這個企業來補漏洞到最後如果葉子是背黑鍋的話那才慘所以本席一直認為說你像我們2020年這個推出的商業跟人權國家行動計畫裡面監察院是國家人權委員會是重要的一個支柱 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7357.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7362.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那你們看7月份 你看你們國家人權行動計畫裡面你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理裡面其實你們都沒有談你們幾乎都沒有談所以我到本席到認為這個跨部會的人權風險的預警的一個機制防止企業被國際的誤判我講說誤判 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7385.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7394.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個其實我們特別要小心如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的一個內功我覺得這很重要的不是事後在那邊算賬事前如果有辦法把這個機制讓它做一個提醒來透過這樣的一個調查幫企業來站穩這樣的一個腳跟才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權的一個條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7411.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7435.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
跟國際上來接軌更可以強化競爭力誰說監察院不能做監察院也可以做你簡單回應一下好不好我們會參考剛剛委員的意見然後本來就是我們針對一定是針對政府機關有沒有違法實質你像歐美的法規我們如果說政府我們制定出來跟別人有所落差的話剛才你買了公威 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7435.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7461.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
你說你職長你各個部會裡面你們做得不好啊你們法規裡面企業質疑沒有弄好啊讓我們自己的企業連這樣的一個龍頭都會受到別人的一個制裁啊這個看起來我是覺得我們連政府部門我都覺得如果當我們的企業在那邊為他的生存然後再奮戰的時候林建才我最怕的時候你們再去給人家補刀啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7463.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7463.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
祕書長 簡單回應這不是開玩笑 我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7467.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7493.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
就是如果說法規上面是有缺漏的部分這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍這本來就是法制上面應該要提出意見那有關於國家人權委員會的部分在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面我們也提出了相關的操作指南的意見請它儘速的更新然後能夠跟相關的國際的公約能夠相契合 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7494.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7514.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
這個是我們人權委員會也有提出其實本席的重點就只有一個人權的治理其實它也可以轉化成變成我們國家跟企業的競爭力這要特別小心這夾這裡 夾我看了你的新聞稿的時候我特別去說連這麼優秀的然後這樣的一個治理在我們國內算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7516.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7543.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
已經上軌道的會被制裁禁止出口這是多大的事情所以監裁院就做調查的時候很多啊 檯面下的好好去瞭解啦我經常跟人家說企業在美國在做申訴的時候這樣不好啦但是啊 這段期間美國所有所有的一個動作裡面我們要非常小心啦美國有他的國家利益他為了讓他很多廠商到他的國家去設廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7545.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7553.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
他那個撇步很多的 你知道嗎這件事要特別注意好不好我很怕我們就變成一個補刀 傷及到無辜好 謝謝好 謝謝莊惠雄委員謝謝黃毅昌委員接下來我們請翁小玲召委來好 今天穿得特別漂亮 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7574.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7580.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好 謝謝主席那麼在這邊先有請王副秘書長請副秘書長王副秘書長 早安我要呼應剛剛我們莊昭偉所說的那席話這個監察院他現在監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7594.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7621.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
不是只有監察委員的這個角色還扮演了國家人權委員會委員的角色所以更是應該要重視人權那麼勞動人權其實也是我們國家這個向來應該要非常重視的一環那麼各個行政機關到底有沒有做好其實監察院應該國家人權委員會應該要負更多的責任然後去了解 去查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7622.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7650.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好那麼在這邊呢我接下來呢我是想要就監察院的這個職責的部分來就叫就叫王富敏我們知道其實監察院在我們的憲法底下權力分立的之下作為我們這個五院之一對於行政院以及各部會的工作都有調查是否違法或失職的權利並且可以行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7651.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7671.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
糾正彈劾糾舉權但是呢在最近這一年多來我們看到行政院及各部會其實有蠻多很明顯公然違法不依法行政的情況譬如說像是該編的預算沒有編行政院從去年開始對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7673.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7702.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
要編原住民計法補償條例的預算沒有編那麼到今年像是軍人志願役加緊警消人員退休金的預算等等該編也是沒有編那麼又自己擅自扣減地方性的補助款至於最後來有好幾件發生自然天然災害那麼我想請教就是監察委員現在有沒有人是有主動申請調查這些案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7704.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7714.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
跟委員說明目前沒有這樣子的案件也沒有澄清也沒有檢舉所以沒有澄清沒有檢舉那麼因此監察委員就可以消極的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7716.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7743.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
依職權去調查嗎這是非常明顯的不依法行政我想如果監察委員他夠關心時事夠了解現在行政院立法院的互動以及社會上面對於行政院公然違法的這樣的一個聲音的話那麼是不是應該要主動的立案調查或是也要自請調查所以到目前為止監察院沒有任何動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7745.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7759.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
目前我們沒有收到澄清跟檢舉不過是有關於那個進法補償的部分有調查案可是不是委員說的這個這個不便利預算的部分不是這個部分 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7761.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7779.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那有關於軍警的部分其實監察院也有其他的調查案是有沒錯他們的待遇還有員額等等都有相關的調查案可是就是沒有依法編列加薪的部分是沒有那一般政府補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7780.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7808.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
總之就是現在監察院沒有任何動作也沒有任何的監察委員自行自請調查那麼我要講就是說大家其實對於監察院的功能不彰已經是非常感冒尤其看到監察委員們在這些年來的表現幾乎就是只打蒼蠅不打老虎重要的大的弊案或是說行政越是高層的行政官員或行政機關違法監察院都不出手 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7809.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7829.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
然後也不去積極做調查其實大家看到這樣的一個狀況是非常的寒心也認為說監察院是每每遇到重大的爭議案件就歸縮不前或是輕輕的放過這樣的做法基本上就是自毀聲譽那當然秘書長因為你不是監察委員了你沒有辦法去做這樣但是我希望你能夠把今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7830.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7840.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
本席的意見然後轉達給監察委員們知道這些事情非常的重要然後乃至於像是這次的花蓮光復香的顏色湖的潰壩事件我覺得監察院都應該要趕快的積極主動立案來調查好 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7847.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7867.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個部分是有嗎好那其他的這個行政院違法失職的這些案子都目前為止都沒有那我也希望他們能夠趕快立案調查好那麼除了就是剛剛講的對於行政機關的違法失職的作為監察院應該要積極的去調查之外還有就是我們剛剛說的監察委員他同時也是國家人權委員會的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7869.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7877.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那麼對於人權的案件應該要特別的重視請問目前這一兩年有多少的人權調查案件麻煩請暫停一下時間關於人權的調查案有四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7895.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7912.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
有四案 只有四案對 然後它有專案另外的專案有八案好有13件專案OK 我想請問我想請問我們複密的就是大家知道這兩年來其實這個陸委會對於這個陸配是這個極盡百般刁難那麼對於陸配人權的問題國家人權委員會這邊有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7924.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7944.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
立案調查有沒有去了解這個事情大家知道其實陸委會它現在所做的這些措施基本上它是違反法律保留原則的而且還將這個本來根本不應該適用這個後來在民國就是後來這個修法的相關的規定然後又溯及既往的讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7945.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7951.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
很多的這個陸配幾十萬的陸配然後重新回去去申請什麼放棄大陸戶籍證明等等那麼還有就是驅逐陸配出境這些其實都是很嚴重會已經侵害到陸配人權的問題然後影響到他們的家庭權親子權那麼對於這部分我們國家人權委員會都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7965.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7986.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
調查嗎就是跟委員說明有關於陸配的相關的權益的部分是已經納入兩公約的獨立評估意見裡面有說明那獨立評估意見在下半年會對外公佈然後這是第一點那第二點是有關於監察權的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7987.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8002.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
陸配的這樣子的一個權益的照顧的部分我們內政及族群委員會已經有決議通過了就是把我們去巡查的時候會去特別關注這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8003.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8028.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以這就是大家就在講就是國家人權委員會到底設了有什麼功能國家人權委員會目前每年編列預算是1.1億到1.2億之間那麼你們判理的基本上都是看起來無關緊要真正的對於台灣的人權迫害或有侵害的事情你們卻沒有積極的處理這讓大家覺得說我們國家人權委員會設置到底有 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8029.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8046.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對於台灣的人權保障提升有所注意嗎並沒有從勞動權利然後剛剛講的那些新著名的權利人權然後已經產生了這麼大的爭議監察院仍然是袖手旁觀國家人權委員會的委員們袖手旁觀這讓人家很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8051.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8061.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
很難會認為我們是否有成立國家人權委員會的這個必要或者是說我們要投入更多的資源去支持國家人權委員會所以在這邊呢本席也要提醒請這個王富密回去轉告人權委員會的委員們 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8068.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8095.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這些事件都要趕快處理要積極地去調查 去了解到底行政機關在處理這些事情的時候是不是有違反比例原則違反法律保留原則我們畢竟還是個依法行政的國家人權保障是非常重要的一件事情對 政治是政治但是我們回歸到法律的層面來還是必須要依法行政而且要注意到人權保障這個才是非常重要的事情好 那接下來第三個問題很快問 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8097.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8117.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我們知道這個陳菊院長從去年12月請假以來將近快要一年的時間那當然本席在這邊也希望她能夠早日康復不過事實上就是因為陳菊院長的健康的狀況然後始終沒有辦法就復職那也造成就是監察院現在一直處於就是無 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8117.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8133.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
院長的狀態就是由副院長來帶領院長這也會影響到整個監察院的運作那麼在這邊情況在這樣的一個情形之下當然本席是認為為了考慮到監察院的運作還有也同時要顧好這個陳院長的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8134.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8149.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
如果他能夠自行請辭那當然是最好但是以現在狀況來講的話他一直沒有動作那外界一直認為說他是不是在這段時間裡面還是有領薪水那當然監察院有發了新聞稿說陳院長基本上是沒有領薪水 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8150.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8174.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
拋棄薪資那我這邊我就想進步的問一下問幾個問題第一個就是監察委員他本身就是廣義的政務人員他本身應該是不適用於公務人員請假規則那麼甚至連這個所謂拋棄薪資的部分他是不是是他現在的拋棄薪資的狀況是依照公務人員的這個就是當時全區部的函式裡面的做法拋棄薪資嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8178.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8198.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
第一個是有關院長的任命是總統的職權然後依照監察院的組織法第六條那如果院長因故不能逝世的時候是由副院長來代理那監察院的職權不管是憲政職權法定職權都非常正常而且謹慎的在運作中 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8199.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8215.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
至於說院長請假的部分是依據公務員請假規則第3條第1項的規定來辦理至於政務人員的部分是準用的至於說委員所提到有關於信奉的部分因為不管依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8216.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8239.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
法務部或者詮釋部的函事有關於公務員的薪奉的部分是屬於公務員對國家的公法上的請求權那不管在法律法理或者實務上面他都是可以全部或者是部分來拋棄不用講這麼法律上面的條件我都曉得那接下來我就請問到底現在陳局院長他拋棄了什麼他的本奉拋棄了嗎他的月奉他每個月的薪水拋棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8247.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8272.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
是不是拋棄了 然後他的特殊費沒有特殊費黃院長沒有特殊費不是 我們今年的特殊費是全部都刪除好 那就是他的月奉有拋棄然後呢 其他的健保還有工保 還有院長的薪奉薪奉是有拋棄這樣 自願繳回這樣自願繳回 全數都繳回 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8277.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8299.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個如果是細項的部分是不是全數都繳回嗎還是有部分項目是沒有繳的嗎是沒有拋棄的對不起是沒有拋棄的我院長的新縫是有拋棄的所以新縫是全數包含各式各樣的加擠福利是不是那所以他現在的公保跟健保是誰負擔沒有人負擔嗎這位人員也有公保跟健保 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8309.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8329.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這個部分的話我希望監察院要提供給我一個清楚的報告因為我想國人是有權利知道到底現在院長說他自己自動拋棄薪水那麼這些薪水的範圍是什麼當然現在政務人員應該是沒有所謂的這個休假的獎金這些應該是沒有嘛他就是主要就是由他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8332.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8347.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
鳳擠就是月鳳還加上他的什麼專業家擠或是植物家擠這些來組成那這總之希望我請秘書長這裡要提供一個下禮拜就提供給我一份就是陳菊院長他拋棄新鳳的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8350.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8365.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
的說明最後一個題目因為今天時間有限我還是要說明一下我們會依法依法提供資料依法因為還是有相關的法規的限制它一定是一個個人資料是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8366.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8395.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
竟然陳菊院長都說他拋棄薪資拋棄薪資的範圍我覺得這是全民應該有權利可以知道的事情他到底薪資的組成就政務人員的薪資的組成這不是秘密是不是這不是秘密嘛對不對但是你監察院提出來的資料這個就是一個公開是可驗證的一個訊息所以如果他是拋棄的是政務人員他現在當院長領了三四十萬的薪水全部的薪水的這個資訊這倒為什麼不能公開這並不是秘密啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8396.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8420.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
否則的話讓大家對於陳菊院長的話沒有信任覺得說她拋棄結果可能事實上根本沒有拋棄或只拋棄一小部分最後我要講的就是監察院的立法計畫監察院對於立法委員們所提出我這次看到你們監察院提出的立法計畫裡面似乎完全沒有follow立法委員們所提出的相關的立法或修法建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8422.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8442.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
監察院是對於立法委員所提出的修法案是無動於衷嗎包含好對不起最後一分鐘包含本席所提出的監察委員行為法以及許曉欣和文宏偉委員他們提出的監察院的組織法修法現在監察院的立場是什麼樣是完全都不想要提出相關的修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8444.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8458.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個有關於法案的提案權是當然是立法委員的權限的憲政權限那這個三個剛剛委員所提到的三個法規沒有包含在監察院今年的立法計畫裡面是在去年也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8459.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8482.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
以前兩三個會期 四個會期都沒有所以本期要在這邊提醒就說是監察院的立法計劃應該也要關注立法委員們所提出的相關法案而不是很消極的然後提了一些基本上根本你們我開始鋪出來你們這年的立法計劃有要提出什麼項目所以這也會讓人家認為說監察院基本上真的功能不彰好 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8483.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8487.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
謝謝 接下來 謝謝複密署長接下來有請吳思瑤委員質詢 謝謝複密喝口水吧 辛苦了好 所以要請複密嗎好 那有請複密 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8508.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8524.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好大家辛苦實在覺得蠻遺憾的我認為從政的人要有同理心更要有人性那不要以小人之心度君子之腹對於陳菊院長他是生病的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8525.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8547.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
他目前沒有辦法來工作我們都對於任何懷有病痛的人 應當要有相當高的同理而陳菊院長 她也主動自動地繳回退回她所有的信奉那有委員又要查這個 又要查那個然後又說 會不會只是說的啊 沒有真的退 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8548.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8574.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我真的覺得消費別人的病痛然後小人之心度君子之腹更是欠缺同理跟人性我表達遺憾也實在要對立法委員這樣的表現我覺得還是深感sorry對於我們陳菊院長這樣子讓我們崇敬的一個前輩有這樣的質疑那今天我的主題天災無情人禍可防 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8575.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8594.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
不分顏色該查就查我今天說的兩件事情我都是同樣的態度一個就是馬太安溪艷澀湖的救災責任一個就是現在政壇大家都關切的受害者比比皆是的狗仔偷拍政治針防的集團有不法就要查下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8596.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8616.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
首先呢剛剛好多在野黨的委員在質詢看來他們對於監察院的功能是很肯定的才會要你們這個也要查那個也要查這個法也要立那個法也要修那如果對於監察委員要求你們要有老虎的功能那麼為什麼不給武器不給預算呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8618.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8634.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
今年總預算你們是所有的願計之間的重災戶形同癱瘓雖然我們最後在追加減預算7762萬免為通過但是太多的業務已經受到罕格下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8635.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8652.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我這裡整理出來的 我們這一年來的中央機關的巡查監察案從33案調到剩10案 降了70%而地方機關的巡查因為要到各縣市 沒有公務車 沒有油錢所以29案變成1案 降了95% |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8658.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8677.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
而監委的另外一個重要的功能調查案件也從去年260案今年目前只有134案等於是減了一半所以說巡查的次數也減調查案件的件數也減衝擊了調查的量能前所未有 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8678.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8698.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
如果在野黨的委員認為對於監察院的功能是有這麼多的期許要你們這個要查那個要查那麼就不要不合理的來亂砍預算所以負面我這些資料的整理是不是因為總預算嚴重的影響了你們的調查巡查的量能我的數字是否正確 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8701.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8728.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
謝謝委員的整理因為我們的相關的今年度的預算被刪了百分之快97所以像中央巡查我們除了剛剛委員說的公務車的郵費以外還有國內旅費其實也都沒有零 也都沒有然後地方機關的巡查也是相同的我們就沒有辦法去各地去受理人民陳情其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8728.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8747.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
对各地来讲是影响非常大尤其是离岛偏乡的部分那调查案的部分呢更是影响重大因为没有任何的咨询费旅刊或者是我听说还很多监委为了自己要让调查的量能维持还是自掏腰包来进行对不对 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8748.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8768.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
事實上是有這樣子的情況好我希望在野黨的委員記取今天在這裡質詢每個人丟了一堆案要你們查查到底要當老虎拜託那今年就不要再砍玉算了下一頁我非常遺憾喔這個傅坤祺的政治垂直避難 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8769.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8797.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
就是甩鍋中央又卸責鄉鎮公所我們學法律我們定法的人災害防救法是921之後國家開始立法在921之前因為沒有一套災害防救的法制所以當時的總統李登輝前總統是用緊急命令的方式那時候吳斯堯就是立法院的國會助理所以我們催生了災害防救法訂定了三級制 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8798.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8826.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
中央縣市政府跟鄉鎮市公所所以災害防救法的三級制各有權責都要合作只是我很遺憾為了甩鍋為了政治的垂直避難的傅坤祺曲解法令至此到底是笨到連法律要前文對後文一起看他都不知道還是壞到惡意的去斷章取義 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8827.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8847.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以災害防救法我就不贅述了三級制中央有責任有權責縣市有責任有權責鄉鎮同樣也有但是要具體執行跟有效分工法就在那裡不要要甩鍋的時候來曲解法令甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8848.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8867.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
災害防救法已經修了很多次每一次的天災都讓我們記取教訓99年的時候再一次修法就是因為莫拉克風災的經驗讓我們立法院認為要強化災害防救法的修法去強化什麼地方政府的災救責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8868.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8881.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以要把法律嚴格跟條文前後文讀清楚不要為了甩鍋卸責政治的垂直避難來曲解法令我很遺憾在野黨現在都說這個調查災情就是要去究責藍營的人是錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8889.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8908.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
監察院在災救的各項調查是不分黨派嘛對不對過去到現在有很多針對災防執行有沒有到位公務團隊有沒有堵直都進行了調查下一頁這是我整理出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8909.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8928.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
纳利台风91年台北市政府的马英九总统因为台北市的防洪设施很完善但是却没有具体的去执行应变失当而且需要向中央求援当时的马英九没有所以你们调查了依法是纠正提案纠正 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8931.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8958.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
99年的莫拉克颱風是高雄市長陳菊針對高雄市當時的土石流警戒沒有具體有效的去撤離所以造成災難你們也是該查就查該辦就辦該糾正就糾正從那裡到莫拉克颱風每一次監察委員的調查都是讓我們國家的災防體制可以更精進有檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8960.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8978.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以馬英九陳菊不同黨派該查就查對不對下一頁更細的到鄉鎮市公所98年在這個高雄縣甲仙鄉的劉鄉長也是你們在小林村的災情上彈劾了這一個鄉長 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8981.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8985.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
在98年台東縣縣長鄺麗珍因為鳳凰颱風來襲縣長卻出國未歸引起輿論的爭議你們提起彈劾但我要強調這個彈劾是針對他那一趟的出國本身的一些計畫執行跟出國的項目不符所以被彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9002.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9022.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以說針對每一次的救災疏失不是為了半藍半綠啊是為了讓國家的災防體系更健全三級制能夠落實所以在這一次的花蓮的馬太安溪的不幸事件我認為你們未來啟動的調查一樣不分顏色 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9023.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9042.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
中央如果有疏失我們要精進地方政府執行不到位我們該給予提醒鄉鎮市公所更是如此我不希望只要監察院在查這些部分的政治工作者就戴上了有色眼鏡 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9044.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9071.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
只能够办律的不能够去查其他政党的这我刚刚整理出来对于防灾的调查是不是也是你们过去具体执行的成果好那第二个下一个主题政治圈发生了史上最大的丑闻跟间偷拍进行政治侦访下一页你们也是受灾户 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9072.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9100.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
下一頁我問兩個問題簡單問李鴻鈞副院長說啟動了公務車使用的行政調查進行中嘛對不對那還在進行中是嗎目前還在調查中調查報告還在審議好我尊重你們的調查希望未來有更好的制度大家可以依循第二個對於這個不法的偷拍狗仔的這個政治針防很多受害者是監委你知道這些監委基於捍衛自己的權益有人要提告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9101.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9117.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
目前沒有這樣子的資訊好 我也尊重但是我認為每一個受害者的權益都至關重大該提告就提告因為才能夠透過司法的釐清查查當中的不法行徑最後下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9118.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9138.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
民進黨團我們的書記長陳培餘在這裡喔昨天跟鍾嘉斌幹事長民進黨團到監察院去舉發了這個狗仔偷拍集團是不是有違及他的資金是違反政治獻金法政治獻金的查核就是監察院的例行業務嘛也不分顏色嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9139.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9156.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
黃國昌委員不曉得是不是怕被查就先來扣帽子貼標籤說國家機器動起來了監察院就是國家機器要鬥爭政敵我要說從來沒有國家機器但是被驗證只有國昌機器 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9157.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9186.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
沒有國家機器但是有偷拍別人的國昌機器同樣我希望你們既然舉發受理該查就查不分顏色甚至政治獻金我手上有厚厚一疊你們辦理罰還處分就是你們的業務不分黨派都有我手上這一疊有林佳龍有新黨有柯文哲有蔡黃狼 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9188.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9209.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
有蘇政卿啊藍綠都有還有一個人叫做吳思瑤我也被罰過因為我的助理在書在辦的時候有一些書師然後一樣你們每一筆都查得很細那我被查了我們如果有登載不夠完整的我們就依法規該被罰就被罰包括我當事者 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9210.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9225.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以我從來不會戴著有色眼鏡該查就查監察院不是國家機器的去打擊政敵的這種監察院是為了整治關真是為了廉潔的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9225.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9245.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以兩個部分一個救災一個在政治獻金的查核基於你們的權限範圍該怎麼辦就怎麼辦那我也期待今年的總預算不要再被為難了你們當時拿到了7000多萬的追加預算欠給廠商的錢都付了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9246.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9252.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
希望今年不要再發生好不好監察院要當老虎請這些委員都要給武器都要給預算謝謝辛苦了謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9268.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9281.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 謝謝吳思瑤委員那我們先做會議程序的預告稍後在程培宇委員詢答完畢以後休息五分鐘那我們接下來請程培宇委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9286.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9312.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
好 那副秘書長喝水了嗎好 謝謝 那有請陳委員好好 今天早上我聽了幾個委員的質詢我想要提一下我個人的觀感我剛才聽到歐小玲委員在問這個關於院長請假的部分一直以來我知道你們都做了非常多的說明但是我在這裡要公開譴責相關委員的發言我認為這是沒有人性道的極致 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9313.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9335.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
在成為一個政治人物之前我們每一個都是一個很重要的有獨立思考的個體我們必須要先是一個人才可以是一個政治工作者但很可惜的是我們看到非常多在野黨的委員屢次用院長現在的狀況攻擊監察院甚至做出很多不實的指控我想監察院這邊應該要更具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9336.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9363.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
硬起來把你們的態度把對於人的關懷說清楚說明白而不是一再成為在野黨委員消費的工具這個部分可不可以請你們簡單回應一下就是謝謝委員提及那有關於本院院長的請假的那個部分的確是 當然是因為身體的關係不得已請假那可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9364.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9386.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
院長請假完全依照法律的規定在處理完全沒有任何的調整折扣而且相關的程序我們也都有呈報到總統那邊這個是第一點第二點是院長自己主動願意拋棄他的薪俸這一點是院長主動的也沒有任何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9387.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9412.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
院裡面也沒有任何的要求也不是外界要求是院長主動那這點應該要完全與尊重那我們也曾經發新聞稿說明過所以呢其他的部分至於說細項的部分有很多的部分一定是屬於個人資料的部分就依法就是不得公開的那也不方便再做進一步的剖清那我可以說的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9413.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9437.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
的確是主動繳回而且是他的信奉就是主動繳回好 謝謝您的說明我認為我也要呼籲所有在野黨委員請就此停住不要再做人身攻擊不要忘了自己也是一個人也不要忘了你家中可能也有親戚朋友長輩可能也正在醫院也正需要醫療的照顧我想這件事情非常非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9437.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9466.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
接下来我想跟你谈一谈关于花莲县政府有非常多荒谬的行为除了刚刚CL委员说的眼色胡的事情之外我想跟你讨论几个案子来第一个我们办公室上个礼拜才陪同被禅光育幼院开除的前院长开了一个记者会因为禅光育幼院其实在监察院的报告里面我们也看出花莲县政府在身为禅光育幼院的地方主管机关到底做错了哪些事情来第一个我们来看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9467.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9489.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你們給了非常非常多的建議看到監察院的報告裡面說花蓮縣政府沒有在第一時間認定禪光育幼院有所謂的不當對待甚至有非常多起的不當對待是在這個院長到任之前其實禪光育幼院長期就有這個現象而花蓮縣政府長期忽視這個事情非常的嚴重還有相關的通報也非常的消極 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9492.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9504.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
甚至在院裡面發生所謂性平事件也沒有按照流程來處理還有禪光育幼院裡面的工作人員專業資能不足 評鑑成績不佳但縣政府沒有積極的協助沒有積極的督導還有縣政府也沒有依照兒少權法修法調整裁罰基準甚至我們發現禪光的董事會組成還違反了財團法人法 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9519.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9538.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個是監察院身為非常重要的監督機關所給予花蓮縣政府的提醒跟糾正我們再往下看花蓮縣政府荒謬不是只有這一件在前一陣子有議員踢爆說花蓮耗資千億蓋餐具清洗中心結果可笑的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9539.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9558.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
縣政府設定的要去用這個餐具清洗中心是所謂東大門夜市的業者現場超過1000攤但是業者說從來沒有人問過我們清洗中心要怎麼用要怎麼收費才合理所以目前其實並沒有業者開始使用這個所謂的餐具清洗中心甚至呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9560.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9587.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
之前清洗中心的硬體設施已經進入驗收階段卻被爆料出來說在興建之前根本也沒有進行先期評估而到目前為止也沒有業者敢去承包委外經營的業務勢必這一棟館耗資千億的餐具清洗中心會再成為花蓮縣的文子館加一這件事情也非常的荒謬再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9588.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9610.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
顏色湖的事件我們看到有非常多的委員也在質詢我非常認同司藥委員剛剛所說的不管是中央還是地方政府有責任該查我們就查該負責就要負責在非常多悲傷的案例當中我們看到另外一個比較正向的花蓮縣政府沒有好好指揮但是大馬村村長王村長 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9611.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9624.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
他的女兒本身也是我們台灣的足球國手女足國手我們看到這個困境而當時呢到目前為止我們看到更荒謬的現象我們往下看昨天有一個相關的新聞喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9626.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9648.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
在地方跟中央當地的救災團隊大家為了快速溝通很多事情所以組成了一個所謂對話群組結果呢在昨天其實是前一天的晚上發生了一個荒謬的事情由花蓮縣民政局帶頭退出這個對話群組然後呢已讀不回 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9649.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9662.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
甚至還說以後有任何行政指導請以正式公文或會議傳達講到目前為止我講了非常多花蓮縣政府荒謬的狀況我們再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9666.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9673.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
0206有很大一筆錢當年捐進花蓮縣政府在2018年的時候而這筆善款呢當時湧入了28億我再次強調28億而這筆善款呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9681.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9708.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
當時他的管理機關是花蓮縣政府因為他們成立了一個花蓮縣重大災害民間震災捐款專戶管理委員會而這個委員會的主管機關就是花蓮縣政府這是不是一種求援兼裁判結果被有心的網友認真的盤點了相關他們所謂公佈他們認為自己有透明他們有公開的相關善款明細我們看到一年花光10億 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9710.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9735.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
甚至有非常多的這些錢的去處是去支應花蓮縣當地的公共基礎建設根本沒有用在所謂受災災民身上但是不要忘記當時台灣人熱情湧入這個28億的捐款是為了直接幫助災民但卻變成縣政府的小金庫拿去做所謂公共基礎建設這是合理的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9736.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9763.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
再來下一個甚至我們之前就有看到有非常多的網友有分享一個照片他說他當時就是有捐款給花蓮縣政府甚至還收到一個荒謬的光碟這個光碟裡面滿滿的是花蓮縣政府當時的縣長他們自己的豐功偉業的一個照片紀錄光碟紀錄跟副秘書長報告我自己的好多朋友也有收到我自己也有收到我當年也有捐款 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9764.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9781.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我覺得非常非常的荒謬到目前為止當然你們有就這個案子有糾正過還有限制性招標的問題啦地震專輯啦光碟壓制動用不同預算科目還有甚至辦所謂感恩參會還有就是用一千多萬辦所謂的聯合祭典還有大法會 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9783.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9793.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
甚至花蓮縣政府這幾年也在非常多地方預算裡面你們也有糾正過他們不斷的辦所謂五教六教聯合法會這個其實都有非常非常多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9795.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9823.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
好還有7.2億到哪裡去了花蓮縣政府的議員也直接問花蓮縣政府我講了這麼多花了七八分鐘講這麼多我要直接說花蓮縣政府不管是傅寬琦委員當縣長的時候或者是徐振蔚縣長夫妻輪流執政輪流當縣長輪流當立法委員把花蓮當成自己的囊中物的這二十幾年當中花蓮縣政府整個花蓮縣變成一個大家不想去的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9824.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9851.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
而這一次有非常多產值超人然後網路上也有非常多的義工網路上有非常多的物資超人各式各樣的超人大家用自己的心去支持花蓮可是我們看到的是傅坤祺委員繼續在中央甩鍋給中央到地方甩鍋給自己的鄉鎮市政府鄉鎮市區公所這些主管們他自己沒有事情徐政委也沒有事情所以我要再次呼籲拜託監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9852.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9869.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
第一個我希望我們所有的善款不管是過去或者是目前我要跟您報告目前花蓮縣政府針對這一次的顏色胡風災他們有開捐款帳戶喔當然已經有很多民眾呼籲不要捐給花蓮縣政府請直接捐到 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9870.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9885.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
衛福部主管這個政災基金會所以確實台灣人這一次做出了相對明智的選擇可是我要再次提醒連韓國瑜院長都在他自己的社群媒體上發文說他捐錢給花蓮縣政府關心顏色湖的災民 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9886.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9899.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
連我們的韓國瑜院長都做了看起來不大明智的選擇我當然尊重他他有他的判斷但是我要說大部分人跟他選擇是不一樣的所以我想後續不管是這一次顏色胡或是之前0206的花蓮正哉的這些善款監察院這邊我們還有什麼樣的角色可以監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9905.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9934.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
跟委員說明一下那個花蓮0206的這個地震 震災的那個部分我們是有調查案也有糾正剛剛委員有說明那有關於善款的那個部分呢看看因為那個原案應該已經結案了因為時間比較長久那看看善款的部分有沒有後續在追蹤的部分好 那這一次呢包含這一次這一次的部分目前剛剛立案 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9936.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9963.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
剛剛10月2號才立案的所以就是原則上調查委員是希望以救災優先我們尊重絕對救災優先而且還有重建的議題是好所以我們是會尊重調查委員的一個職權那相關的委員的意見我們會轉達給調查委員因為這一次顏色虎真的不是只有錢的問題我要提醒我要呼籲社會大眾一起關注人命關天 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9964.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9990.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這一次有非常多人因此而上身就是因為縣政府撤離計畫不清不楚甚至我們的縣長還出國沒有在第一時間跟中央指揮緊急應變中心站在一起是有傅坤祺委員參與甚至傅坤祺委員自己公開說縣長出國是因為內政部部長打電話給他他才回國的我認為相關疏失我們要積極的監督好不好好謝謝監察院謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9993.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9998.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
好謝謝程培文詢問好那我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10330.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10341.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10349.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10361.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在來接下來請傅坤祺委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10372.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10398.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
主席請司法院代理秘書長監察院監察院代理秘書長請代理秘書長你好秘書長好早上聽到民眾黨總召黃國昌先生說對於監察院的預算跟本席有一些爭執 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10401.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10426.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
當時他選擇相信了這個監察院也就是您給他做的說明所以他毅然決然把所有刪除的預算全部撤案當然國民黨對民眾黨的決定是尊重的但是我們很詫異那也看看這個祕書長是不是也有一些成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10428.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10454.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
光是從8月份審查預算到現在短短的不到兩個月當中國內發生很多事情但是最基本的公務人員廢職職務而且位級越高責任罪責越重本席在這裡還是要再請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10456.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10483.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
國家的行政院長卓榮泰行政院長公然違法對立法院國會所通過的法律案包括軍人加薪要充實國防這民進黨天天說的那抗中保台如果我們自己的軍人都沒有辦法安身立命可以保家衛國三萬五千三的待遇要扛槍上戰場 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10484.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10495.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
而且家裡要如何安家 如何成家所以這個立法院通過了給軍人加級調到3萬等於加2萬這個卓榮泰院長悍然拒絕編列這個請問一下秘書長對這個案子有什麼看法沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10512.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10539.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
就跟委員報告有關於軍人的相關的部分其實監察院有蠻多的調查案件比如說像士官的援俄 待遇跟他們退休的相關的給予的部分我們也非常關注軍中人權的部分這一次立法院通過了相關的法規行政院就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10540.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10566.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
沒有編列預算的部分目前監察院是沒有澄清案也沒有檢舉案所以目前還沒有啟動所以監察院是要看到有人檢舉還是有人澄清才會辦案嗎我們立案的方式有四種那其中當然有監察委員主動立案嘛對不對那所以現在監察委員有幾位目前是25 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10567.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10595.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
25位 沒有人主動來立案嗎目前說明沒有所以表示現在監察院是完全失能對於我們國防壯大這麼重要的軍人家籍行政院拒絕 悍然拒絕編列那本席再跟您討論一下也包括警察消防退休所得替代率到80% |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10597.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10607.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
請問您 國內紛紛擾擾 炒成這樣行政院在155年預算編列了沒有秘書長 編列了沒有這是行政院編列的預算沒有關係啦 本期就直接告訴你 都沒有編啦這不只啊 周榮泰公然違憲違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10624.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10647.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
而且這兩個案子立法院三讀通過以後都經過行政院總統院長自己的附屬送到總統總統府總統簽署後公告實施但是連自己附屬總統簽署公告都居然悍不實施請問該當何罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10655.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10666.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這個我只能說明就是說玉石大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡玉石大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡不知道民主黨 這比較勉強你回答這是最基本的Lesson 1沒有辦法回答要保官位 所以沒有辦法回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10682.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10704.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好 沒關係 本席不勉強你我們就看到現在的監察院是什麼樣的一個監察院再過來高雄的天坑大大小小50多處啊我們就舉一處來說就好秘書長光其中一處有6公頃6公頃深20米 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10710.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10726.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
民主黨 這總共挖走多少沙土 知道嗎還有幾倍 挖了多少 因為20米深有挖到幾倍了沒關係 不知道本席告訴你1公頃1萬平方米 6公頃6萬平方米20米深 再乘以20 是120萬立方米 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10735.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10760.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
大概是一立方公尺大概是1.5噸現在一台車要載一台卡車要載大概20噸要把光這個天坑其他50個坑不要談光談這個坑那個資料都有問題我就這樣給您介紹一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10762.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10785.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
180萬噸一台車載20噸總共要載9萬台車包括我們的國土署天天在那裡監視我們的林保署天天在那裡監視農業部 內政部的直升機天天在那裡飛 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10789.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10811.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
6萬台車 6萬台卡車 竟然沒有人看到高雄市政府沒有看到高雄市政府警察局沒有看到高雄市政府農業局沒有看到高雄市調查處沒有看到監察委員通通沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10814.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10827.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們現在講建築廢棄建築廢棄物囤到裡面我本席現在先不跟你談有毒廢棄物就光講如果有毒廢棄物也在裡面環境部也有問題這裡面光囤在裡面光囤在裡面建築廢棄物一噸三千塊一噸三千塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10847.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10871.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
180萬方大概就55億還不包括挖走的土還不包括挖走的土還不包括挖走的土拿去倒賣這麼國家重大的案子有人調查了沒有跟委員報告 有委員韓巡兩位委員還在韓巡中韓巡收集資料 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10875.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10896.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
有沒有可能像總統大選的時候恩恩案一樣每天都可以公佈啊還有上半場中半場下半場每天早中晚都可以公佈 可以嗎不要跟我講監察法26條早中晚不是趙三餐公佈的嗎 總統大選不是趙三餐在公佈嗎記者都在報導嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10902.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10928.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那請問一下 恩恩案的調查委員你們有沒有調查這些委員有沒有洩露為什麼時時報 日日報呢有沒有調查沒有調查好 沒有調查這是我們的監察院好 本席在這裡快速的請您因為沒有關係我們還會再找您來我們現在包括內湖池水庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10930.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10959.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
金湖水庫阿嘎宮殿水庫鹽水杯水庫還有烏山頭水庫民營這個水面式的光電到底是用什麼方式在民生用水的水庫來試行清洗它核准的過程是如何牽涉多少部會多少地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10961.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10983.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
本席在這裡請監察院勇於調查有沒有問題有沒有問題有立案 也有立案最後本席在一定要跟秘書長來切磋一下就了解本席的能量有多大光靠罵傅坤祺就可以當部分區立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10984.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11010.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我要給養這麼多人齁只要罵我就有工作可以做所以呢光造謠傅坤祺就有工作可以做還可以當到部分區立委本席現在請教你齁剛剛早上的詢談你已經說有提案了有人提案很好本席在這裡公然在國會殿堂請他查明8月11號 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11012.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11040.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
針對堰塞湖可能發生的洪災花蓮縣政府 光復鄉公所農業部 經濟部 四方會談有會議記錄 也有錄音現在跟行政院各部會開的會通通要錄音錄影有錄音特別政告第一個農業部負責監測堰塞湖只要有任何情況發生溢流或潰壩 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11042.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11068.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
必須要立刻施放海嘯警報結果 本席那天也問過卓榮泰院長也問過劉世芳部長結果當天沒有施放海嘯警報好 這第一 草菅人命然後在行政院的前進協調所指揮官紀連城政委 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11069.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11093.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
再給賴清德總統報告的這個驗射壺的警戒發布第一章第一頁就講一定要發海嘯警報這個行政院已經自證其罪了第二個已經聲明在8月11號聲明有錄音檔也有會議記錄要求馬太安西有兩個開口題 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11096.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11121.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
在去年康瑞颱風就曾經溢流到佛祖街溢流到整個幾幾乎要到光復的街坡這張圖就是農業部的圖我都沒有加一筆在上面農業部就提醒經濟部會從這裡溢流進來這是農業部做的圖也有會議記錄要求他把這兩個洞補上 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11124.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11151.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
結果 而且強度要夠結果就是從這裡進來把整個關物箱淹沒經濟部廢辭職務草菅人命而且更湊巧的是紀連城政委在給賴清德總統報告的過程當中從9月23號發生經濟部水利署立刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11152.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11179.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
立刻短短不到10天完成了5米高2860公尺長的堤防那請問8月11號會議做的決議他為什麼不做等災後才來做效率這麼好行政院再一次自證其罪監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11180.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11200.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
看看你們有什麼樣的風骨到底是監察院還是行政院的調查科我們就拭目以待議長 可以回答嗎就是有關於馬太安的那部分本院在10月2號已經有委員調查可以今天公布嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11201.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11218.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
因為這個委員是沒有授權幕僚你可以徵詢看看嘛 好不好不然我們還要問淨檢很麻煩問淨檢什麼都問得到 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝傅坤祺委員接下來請羅志強委員宣打 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11230.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11234.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
主席有請王副秘書長請副秘書長請教副秘書長幾個月前李俊逸前秘書長因為濫用公務車送狗去美容因此辭職了對不對但是監察院其實當時爆出濫用公務車的也不只李俊逸一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11257.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11276.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
包括林玉龍 王榮章 蘇利窮同樣都有這方面的爭議當時李鴻鈞副院長說要把這些監委送紀律委員會請問目前進度如何針對李俊逸還有這些監委有進行進一步的調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11277.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11299.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
跟委員報告6月6號的時候相關的案件就進了紀律委員會紀律委員會其實在7月份就開過兩次會議因為有任期所以到7月31號任期到不過前面一次的紀律委員會四個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11299.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11319.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
前面的紀律委員會已經有派兩位紀律委員去收集資料到8月1號以後8月1號是一個新的七個紀律委員副秘書長你講的一大堆什麼任期到什麼新的紀律委員都無法解釋一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11321.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11346.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這麼簡單的事情四個月放在那邊擺爛來我想請教一下你們監察院的這個年度的施政目標就包括針對行政機關違私立案調查提出糾正案對不對然後追究相關責任處期徹底注意改善結果你們監察院自己的違法濫權 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11349.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11376.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
沒關係啊一晃眼拖個四個月過去他跟我講什麼因為這個任期借買因為新的上來你覺得我們台灣人民聽得懂嗎聽得進去嗎遇到你們自己就拖拖拖慢慢慢是這樣子嗎跟委員說明這個任期是事實是這樣子然後另外呢事實是什麼事實就是你們對自己的部分就是搞拖延 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11377.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11404.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
監察百官的机关变成最该被监察的对象然后叫人民怎么去信任监察院那我就直接问你啊傅秘书我知道你大概也答不出来了请问到底什么时候给我们结果嘛你现在有新的机遇委员会出来了告诉我啊是不是等到下一个机遇委员会任期多久一年一年后再跟我讲说抱歉啦一年这个新的机遇委员会 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11405.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11409.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
又任期借買 又要新的紀律輪會無限紀律下去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11411.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11436.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
就是新的紀律委員會他們已經開過有兩次的約詢兩次的調卷而且兩次提出拜託啦速度快一點10月份報告其實出稿已經出來了出稿出來了那告訴我結論是什麼通通沒事做官員的典範不用有任何的結果不用負擔任何代價是這個結果嗎告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11438.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11460.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那個紀律委員會是獨立行使職權我是行政幕僚我知道你不會講我不曉得我知道你不曉得不曉得拭目以待好不好可不可以我想請問如果地方政府放任土地環境被違法開發破壞清道廢棄物該不該開罰該不該處理監察院該不該調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11465.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11492.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
其实监察院是事后权那跟行政权里面还是有权力分立的适用所以呢如果有事件发生应该是行政权优先处理你不是废话吗我就问你了如假学渣案算不算事后权啊假如渣案吗学假如渣案对啊我要问你就是这些已经发生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11493.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11517.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
要不要調查有調查案來來來有調查我當然知道啊好來我們監察院社會福利及衛生環境等委員會在今年8月20號有召開聯席會議嘛對不對是針對台南雪茄的爐渣案還有一些重要的一些議題來進行討論嘛對不對來你知道根據會議記錄什麼時候開會什麼時候散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11524.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11539.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
來啦 我告訴你啦對啊喔 非常長 我就忍這句話來來來來 我告訴你來來來 我跟你講我這邊很簡單 你們會議紀錄在這邊8月20號下午3點42分開會嘛 對不對你知道什麼時候結束嗎你們會議紀錄寫的喔 散會是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11552.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11565.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
散會3點42分好厲害真的好厲害3點42分開會3點42分散會文化部補助0日攻擊你們是什麼0秒開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11570.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11589.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
因為常設委員會在開會的時候是會開他的本會跟各聯席會議那會議記錄的話就會一段你覺得你講這些大家聽得懂來來我講下一個問題你知道那天不只開這個會吧8月20號當天下午3點37分到42分5分鐘開了幾場聯席會開了幾場告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11597.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11619.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
開了七場聯席會好有效率啊 監察院真的太厲害了有兩個聯席會3點38分開會3點38分散會又是一個所謂的零分開會你知道在立法院開聯席會要開多久啊常常開一整天耶還要挑釁夜戰耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11623.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11651.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我讓你答不出來啦你剛剛已經認了五秒鐘答不出來啦不是因為我手中沒有相關的資料欸欸欸你們連這個都不知道來五分鐘開七場一分鐘開兩場你跟我講開什麼會啊過場而已啦來這七場我直接告訴你包含哪些議題看我有沒有說錯包括性騷擾台南雪甲爐災案外籍漁工人權家暴長照健康食品安全環境保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11653.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11678.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
五分鐘講得完啊因為剛剛委員講的那個議題不是在審調查報告而是在審後面的你剛才跟我講你們聯席會開很久你現在要改口了嗎後面的審查意見那審查意見前面已經經過調查委員我跟你講 副秘書長你到現在為止你在兜圈圈我不為難你啦你是行政幕僚 不為難你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11680.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11690.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
最諷刺的是 你知道監察院你剛送進來115年預算議事行政上引印機租金印刷費用編多少錢354萬還有一筆是有線電視收視費開會餘時誤參費多少錢134.9萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11707.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11735.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
監委你認真工作有些費用是可以編列但是我要跟你講光光你那聯席會五分鐘開七場印大量的會議資料我直接跟你講對不起那會議資料根本沒有用心討論就是敷衍連買A4紙跟碳水匣給你們都是浪費五分鐘開七場會議的單位你有臉去編百萬元的務參費 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11737.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11757.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
還要編列預算給監察委員看有線電視照你們這種開會的速度我真覺得你們到底有沒有時間誤餐這些不合理的項目我直接跟你預告進入到審查的時候我們就嚴格審查要刪就刪再來我要請教115年編了900萬元的沒宣費對不對沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11767.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11786.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
在平和指標上你們自己設定人權獎項要達10萬次人權研討會也是10萬次人權教育推廣徵建活動要達30萬人次然後人權專題宣導達35萬人次人權影像紀錄要達45萬以上觀看也就是說總共要達130萬次觀看我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11791.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11817.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我自己的那個社群平台有時候一支影片30秒鐘成本零也可以破百萬但沒有關係你要編900萬去達130萬次觀看可以啦可以啦那麼來看看你到底做得你做不做得到來請問你知道監察院自己有那個youtube頻道吧你知道你們訂閱數多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11820.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11825.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我告訴你啦非常棒的數字啊402人你有沒有訂閱數402然後你跟我講說你要130萬觀看你的訂閱數402你竟然搞這麼久連1000都沒破給你錢是幹嘛丟海裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11844.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11850.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
來 我想請教 目前監察院上架了多少影片目前監察院上架了多少影片150隻你知道最高大概點閱率多少嗎我知道你也不知道啦最高的不到1萬 大概7400150隻平均觀看352次加起來5.3萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11873.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11877.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我跟副秘書長講你們要那900萬沒宣費我直接講一點立場都沒有以你們這種所謂的宣傳績效一點立場都沒有所以我這邊直接跟你講這900萬在我看來叫浪費公帑這些錢也會延伸以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11897.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11914.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
好 謝謝羅志強委員所有的委員發言都已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關尽速送交個別委員及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11915.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11926.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那我們議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢那本次的會議我們就進行到此結束我們現在散會 謝謝大家 |