| IVOD_ID |
16936 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16936 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-13T08:34:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-13T14:10:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:35:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea299c9345d7f245bda007677806357132b5dbf79f23f633bb0879778bd7002dce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:16 - 14:10:00 |
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請主任秘書報告出席人數現在開會我們進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第二次全體委員會議事錄時間114年10月8日星期三上午9時至11時30分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等14人列席委員林德福委員等15人 |
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列席官員 中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇暨相關人員 主席王昭吉委員美會報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況含商會及臨時提案辦理情形並備質詢中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇報告委員蘇巧慧等14人質詢由中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇暨相關人員答覆說明 |
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1824.169 |
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決定一登記發言委員處不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員林德福吳啟明及丁薛忠等三人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會宣讀完畢請問各位委員上次會議意識度有錯誤或遺漏 |
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1850.18 |
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無錯誤亦適度確定那我們現在進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀宣讀完畢 |
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1878.005 |
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現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們王美惠召委黃婕維園我們內政部部長劉世芳部長消防署署長蕭煥章校署長國土管理署副署長徐彥信副署長 |
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援助民主委員會主任委員曾志由農業部常務次長杜汶箏經濟部水利署副署長黃洪浦環境部環境管理署副署長劉瑞祥衛生福利部常務次長莊仁祥 |
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1936.01 |
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1958.172 |
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行政院公共工程委員會技術處處長曾鈞銘補充介紹我們的今天的委員我們蘇巧慧委員李柏毅委員還有我們張鴻路委員 |
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1966.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那接下來請我們內政部劉世芳部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1975.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1994.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席黃委員各位委員各位女士先生大家早安大家好今天呈內政委員會邀請就晏曬湖監測災害預警通報疏散機制及災後復原重建一共有四大項進行報告那以下僅提出內政部應處作為報告請各位委員指教那書面報告也敬請參閱一有關於晏曬湖平常平時的監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2000.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2011.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
花蓮馬太安溪驗測湖自114年也就是今年7月形成之後全責機關農業部林保署在7月26日成立驗測湖應變小組進行監測農業部在8月27日成立專案小組那本部均配合參加相關會議討論防減災的作為第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2020.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2045.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有關中央災害應變中心華家沙颱風的處置作為本次馬太安溪的堰塞湖災害防救疏散撤離工作內政部在成立華家沙颱風中央災害應變中心以後按照災害防救法進行指揮督導協調與支援災害防救工作的相關事項按照地方制度法災害防救法應該由地方政府研擬及核定地區災害防救計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2046.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2058.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
並且在災時執行疏散撤離工作又鄉鎮市公所無法因應災害處理時後縣政府應該主動派員協助有關中央災害應變中心處置作為扼要說明如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2059.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2073.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
一 中央氣象署在9月21日8時30分發布畫家沙颱風海景中央災害應變中心及同步二級開設下午在5時30分提升為一級開設花蓮縣政府則於9月21日11時46分三級開設9月22日上午8時二級開設9月23日下午6時一級開設目前中央及花蓮縣政府均持續維持一級開設當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2087.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2101.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第二為因應馬太安溪艷澀湖疏散撤離事宜9月21日下午3時中央災害應變中心指揮官邀集台大陽明交大等專業團隊以及花蓮縣政府光復萬榮及鳳林政公所等包括縣府饒密書長代表率消防局社會處農業處警察局民政處建設處以及鄉鎮公所等人員以視訊會議的方式參加來召開會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2113.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2133.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
決議依照專家學者所提出的情資套會戶籍資料計算出疏散撤離戶數總共1800戶以及路線在當日下午6時第三次工作會報本人在會議才是花蓮縣馬太安溪艷澀湖後續中央提供圖資套碟需疏散撤離之1800戶的門牌號碼請疏散撤離組接同 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2136.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2144.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
花蓮縣萬榮鄉鳳林鎮光復鄉等三鄉證供所確認撤離人數必由國防部提供協助以利 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2145.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2172.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
明日也就是第二天風雨較小前執行異地或者是垂直預防性的疏散撤離後依農業部建議再增加37戶總共共有1837戶需要撤離中央災害應變中心並且在同日晚間21時30分發布新聞稿略以今21日已提供花蓮縣政府及三個公所盤點實際人數包括急在人不在外地返鄉者等並且依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2173.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2192.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
氣象情滋農業部林保署將於明日也就是22日上午7時發布紅色警戒由縣府與公所執行預防性疏散撤離工作第三9月22日上午7時農業部林保署及發布馬太安溪艷澀湖紅色警戒中央災害應變中心也循著警政消防民政 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2193.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2208.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
原民等多管道多次通報該府相關機關單位以及光復相跟所應該執行疏散撤離工作9月22日下午30第5次中央災害應變中心的工作會報總統行政院長市長視訊由台灣台東台東縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2212.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2222.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
饒縣長 屏東縣州縣長以及花蓮縣延富縣長延富縣長說明就花收容人數部分三個鄉鎮總共有1837戶實際居住人數有6843人收容地點有三處光復商職體育館鳳林鎮樂活樂館 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2231.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2237.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
萬榮國小活動中心三處收容計130人依親計1365人垂直避難計5348人第五9月23日上午10時15分行政院長視導中央災害應變中心並且提示 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2247.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2273.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
馬太安溪艷澀湖於7月形成後即進行監測行政院並於相關會議及院會進行各種情境研判分析並且預劃採取相關防治措施目前水位距離溢流口約2公尺水位持續上升預估於23日中午前可能溢流請農業部持續密切監控並且適時發布災防告警細胞廣播也就是CBS的紅色警戒提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2274.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2295.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
如有觀測到溢流情形請及時通知中央災害面中心及花蓮縣政府已立相關單位立即應應也請通知地方政府持續以村裡廣播及警消廣播車提醒民眾疏散撤離切勿靠近危險區域行政院也特別邀請花蓮縣副坤崎委員前來讓副總召了解行政團隊在颱風來臨前後的應變處置作為以及對於花蓮馬太煙 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2300.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2316.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
馬太安溪艷澀湖可能發生一流行政團隊事前如何加強監測並且做好相關的應變工作第六9月23日14時50分發生霸頂一流4日下午3時中央災害應變中心第八次工作會報花蓮縣政府回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2316.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2345.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
马太岸西堰涉湖溢流影响范围安置人数统计至当日13时30分即有17人数8524人收容安置185人13100人垂直避难5239人此皆有公开的直播影片可以供稽查第7 9月23日20时第9次工作汇报指示成立中央前进协调所由经济部赖次长赖建信担任总协调官总和花莲县灾害应变中心前进指挥所 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2347.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2363.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
結合花蓮縣災害應變中心前進指揮所加速後續應變及復原重建事宜第八9月26日18時30分將化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心調整為花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖專案中央災害應變中心持續一級開設應變與救援至今 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2367.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2384.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第九中央前進協調所暨總協調官暨政務員連程亦分別於10月10日11及12日召開花蓮縣馬太安溪艷澀湖疏散撤離應變計畫三次討論會重要結論包括撤離模式應該納入志工救災人員遊客等 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2385.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2405.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
與警戒區域非保全戶之不特定對象警戒區域範圍請農業部調查後正式提供圖資納入計劃花蓮縣政府務必明確及具體說明需要國軍協助之數量需求等並且請花蓮縣政府盡速將計劃簽成縣長核定在計劃發布施行三日內辦理兵棋推演驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2408.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2423.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
4應變搶救清瘀工作告一段落 盡速辦理實兵演練在計劃週妥即可執行 確保民眾安全第10 截至10月12日12時止總計出動全國消防救災量能3298人 1173車 139艇147架無人機 以及67隻搜救犬 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2431.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2437.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
各部會支援救災出動各市車輛11894車各市搶救機具24419室以及101165人次目前傷亡統計計19人死亡5人失蹤以及157人受傷救援人員仍然持續收救作業當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2451.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2473.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第三大項有關本部國土署的應變作為第一雨水下水道的清淤情形為了加速下水道的清淤作業中央災害應變中心前進指揮所在10月2日第17次工作會議主席指示由本部國土署整合縣府環境部以及國軍機具人力統合規劃與執行第二由於光復鄉佛祖街周邊淤積較為嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2475.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2503.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
目前仍持续进行路面以及加护淤泥清除作业原先办理林森路及中山路周边之雨水下水道干线及测沟清淤工作目前每日约有30组施工机具包括抽吸两用轻沟车加水车分区进行系统性的清淤工作每日机具完成了清淤长度约50到80公尺且施工机具仍在配合清淤进度微调增加当中 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2503.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2530.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
考量部分地區淤泥量仍大整體下水道清淤預計約一個月可以完成但是既連城總協調官希望我們在10月20日之前就可以完成所以現在會加大清淤的力度第二有關救災機具及施工人員動員的情形國土署所調派所轄各工程分署可動用之救災機具及人員至災區投入復建工作目前有七位主管跟四位文書工作人員輪值 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2531.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2537.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第二截至114年10月12日12時止累計出動山貓79台抓斗車30台怪手103台卡車165台輕溝車94台灑水車62台轉運車23台及施工人員1293人 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2548.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2566.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
测沟累计清运的长度约17.67公里后续也会加速灾区的复原工作第三有关受灾户相关住宅协助措施说明第一为协助灾民尽速复原恢复正常生活行政院在灾后卫助服务站从10月7日起至10月12日止 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2566.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2593.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
每日上午八十到下午五十在花蓮光復的中華電信服務中心以一站式服務協助民眾辦理相關未住的服務申請內政部亦全力配合包括補發身份證健保卡金融帳號等生活所需的功能以及接受民眾的諮詢包括有受理申請未住金租金補貼建築物安全鑑定等相關措施到十月十一日受理家園 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2594.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2619.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
家園復原衛助金共1518件租金補貼64件另外受理房屋結構安全評估80件那園民會通報有36件已經評估26件當中再來就是有關行政院在114年10月3日核定本部所報馬太安溪艷澀湖受災戶家園復原衛助金的專案本部也造冊提供給衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2619.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2625.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
卫福部目前就是依照社会救助法的方式汇款发放有10万元卫助金 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2626.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2652.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第四有關本部替代役訓練中心的管理作為現役的人力資源的部分在本部替代役的訓管中心的協助聯繫花蓮縣政府調派轄內替代役藝男支援光復鄉開設避難收容工作在9月22日調派22名23日調派24名的藝男來協助另外9月24日上午花蓮縣政府傳訊請求調派其他縣市替代役 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2652.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2675.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
現役藝男人力跨區支援災後復原工作內政部在24日首次調派有六個直轄市宜蘭縣以及本中心替代役藝男各20名及兩名帶隊人員在10月7日的時候接續調派有11個縣市來替代替代藝男投入資源協助災後復原等工作有關於備役替代役人力支援的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2675.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2697.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
也是全台灣首度由花蓮縣政府的替代役備役應難勤務召集規劃兩個梯次每個梯次120人共計240人投入協助救災的工作那麼第一梯次呢會由今天開始來投入第五節雨的部分最後內政部也要藉此機會特別感謝中央災害應變中心及前進協調所的所有同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2697.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2722.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
以及地方政府在風雨之際堅守崗位協助監測各種情況並且確保指令下達與再三叮嚀也要感謝民政替代藝男景蕭同仁以及國軍官士兵協助地方政府執行疏散任務並且與國土工程人員環境傾銷各地志工共同加速各項復原工作本次堰塞湖災情對花蓮縣民眾造成嚴重衝擊情形行政院於114年10月7日 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2724.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2748.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
已經公告化家沙颱風影響災區範圍為花蓮縣光復鄉鳳林鎮及萬榮鄉卓院長也三度赴災區勘災中央災害應變中心暨前進協調所花蓮縣災害應變中心暨前進指揮所維持一級開設共同協助調度各項救災搶修搶通作業同時內政部也持續與農業部經濟部交通部中央氣象署花蓮縣政府等密切合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2749.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2766.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
並且遵照卓院長的指示依照七項順序進行工作第一搶救生命第二恢復家園第三去化垃圾及污泥第四回復環境及交通第五針對民房農田及公共設施等損失研擬補償措施第六提出復原與重建計畫第七 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2767.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2793.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
進行檢討與責任釐清以改進相關措施確保未來安全同時做到確實現實定時三項目標包括馬太安溪艷澀湖水位監測要確實堤防及橋樑復原工作要現實完成同時也要定時結束同時要定時結束家園復原工作讓受災民眾早日恢復正常生活以上簡要報告敬請各位委員女士先生參考多多指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2795.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2797.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主席 各位委員 女士 先生大家早就本會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2816.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2844.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
驗射壺的監測還有災害的預警通報還有疏散機制以及災後護眼重建進行報告敬請各位委員指教中央在9月21日就開設花家沙颱風應變中心本會也同步成立應變中心透過傳真以及這個LINE的群組通報地方單位共12次並協助統計族人撤離安置的情形9月23日驗射壺災害發生之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2846.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2870.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
本會隨即進駐中央前進協調委 協調所擔任延民工作組的主導機關並且參與戶員重建以及收容安置組的工作本會在災後及時發放傷亡族人的衛助金媒合安置非公設收容處所 族人的入住民宿等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2871.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2893.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
啟動部落關懷小組進駐七個村族戶訪視族人以及發放衛助軍此外在關戶車站我們也引導志工清理家園並進駐東戶村的阿桃木部落協助這個族人的清淤本會重視這個族人的意願部落的青年會 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2894.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2911.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
除了可以參加中央協調所的工作會議之外我們也參與馬太安青年會馬太安自救會以及東戶青年會的座談及時回應他們的訴求並且進駐行政院的一站式平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2911.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2927.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
協助申請各項救助以及房屋的安全鑑定我們並且提供了臨時工作計畫200人以及部落互助行手隊的計畫100人現在也已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2929.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2955.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
270幾位的族人已經陸續上工為了要因應重建的需要本會也提報追加預算用於紀惠所的復建還有文件站的復建以及融資利息補貼等等而且在尊重部落共識的前提下我們會積極來推動災戶員的重建工作協助我們的族人早日重建家園以上報告進行各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2959.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2963.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
謝謝曾主委 接下來我們請農業部杜汶箏常務次長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2971.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2987.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先進大家早今天陳貴委員會邀請就堰塞湖監測災害預警通報疏散機制及災後復原重建進行專案報告以下警就本部應處作為說明敬請各位委員指教第一堰塞湖的行程與調查監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2989.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3012.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
花蓮縣萬榮鄉的馬太安溪上游在今年7月下旬因邊坡大規模崩塌阻斷溪流形成晏色湖本部林業及自然保育署花蓮分署在7月26日空刊確認晏色湖後立即成立緊急應變小組並委託陽明交通大學防災團隊進行調查監測及緊接工作應變期間也多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3012.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3019.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
请空勤总队直升机做空勘掌握艳赛湖的状况并降落坝顶安置水位计 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3020.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3044.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
林業保育署的航遙測分署也多次執行航拍取相任務也完成了航照影像的解算建模提供給監測團隊後續調查監測危險度及危害風險評估作為警戒訂定機制及影像範圍的重要資訊那從調查的相關的從7月26日到9月21日的相關作為請各位參閱報告內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3046.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3076.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
二 相关政府机构的协作以及公众的沟通从7月26日林保署花莲分署召开应变小组会议也已经把中上下所有应该相关的政府机构花莲县府以及包括台铁公路段花莲公务段还有浓水署相关的机构还有公路局花莲公务股也都纳进来那当然最重要的是花莲县府还有所受影响的凤林光复及万荣山 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3078.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3094.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個鄉鎮的一些鄉鎮公所也都納進來做整體的一些考量那7月16號開始應變小組會議之後從8月6號到9月21日之前一共召開了包括防災的分工會議也包括了分散 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3096.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3124.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
蘇珊的會議還有河道蘇郡的分工會議以及獄警發布機制的延伸會議那這期間呢8月7號也拜訪了花蓮縣政府做溝通就蘇珊撤離的作為請花蓮縣政府務必積極來嚴處那花蓮縣府也在8月11日召開蘇珊會議那這樣子的運作在12號8月12號的楊柳颱風也發揮了效果完成了697人的撤離那 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3125.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3149.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
陰陰陽柳颱風之後我們也到了萬榮光復鳳林鄉召開了四次現場的跟村鄉民座談會因為其實就一次的陽柳颱風還有後續要因應的作為也做了一些說明那這期間也召開了兩次專家諮詢會議並發布了九則新聞以及有93個新聞媒體露出這是在政府各部門協作以及在 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3151.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3177.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個跟民眾溝通的部分那第三農業部召開跨部會的專案小組是在8月27日奉行政院成立那第一次會議的時候就已經分成三個工作小組第一個是在霸體的監測第二個是在河川的減災工程第三個是疏散撤離的部分那就這三個工作小組其實這當中還是有很多的監測工作那除了我們在各專家小組的研判會議之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3178.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3191.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
花蓮縣府也在9月17號因為那時候已經預計化加沙颱風快要歷臨所以花蓮縣府也在9月17號正式召開了疏散撤離因應的對策工作小組那 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3192.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3216.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本專案小組在9月19號召開第二次專家召開這個跨部位的專家會議那但是其中當天並沒有聽到那個花蓮縣府就整個撤離計劃的細節但是有當場又提醒說因為華沙加颱風已經快歷齡了也請花蓮縣府務必趕緊完成這個疏散計劃以作為及時的應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3218.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3233.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
中央災害應變中心成立之後是在9月21日8點30分發布颱風警報那就成立中央災害應變中心農業部當然就加入防災應變辦理農林漁牧功能分組的各項防災應變工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3234.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3263.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那中央災害面成立之後的各項因素剛才內政部劉部長已經說明了非常清楚在這邊只是要特別提出說明兩點第一個是在9月21號11點我們其實已經通知花蓮縣府就那些弱勢的族群應該要緊急做疏散然後也針對那些收容避難場所也要開始準備包括空間物資人員這些準備這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3264.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3287.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那同時也在當天有告知就是預計9月22日早上7點就要發布紅色警戒那所謂紅色警戒就是一定要緊急撤離了所以我想這兩件事情跟花蓮縣府其實都有做完整的說明跟準備那這期間一共發布14日的警戒警訊跟8則的細胞廣播資訊那細節內容請大家參閱書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3289.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3297.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那重點是在災後的監測警戒跟復原那雖然這個華沙加雜蜂造成的這個霸體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3298.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3326.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
大量的水沙土流流到這個光復箱裡面那目前從10月1號到12號其實我們每天的這個監測都還持續在做那目前其實溢流口下刷速度已經減緩了那湖面的水位其實並沒有明顯的變化那在這期間也發生了花蓮有地震那經過在空拍影像確認其實堰塞湖並沒有再次的潰穴那微地動物也沒有偵測到有大型的崩塌 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3327.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3349.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
也沒有水流的異常情形那深溝兩側的有土砂的崩落但是並沒有阻塞到這個這個通溪流的通路所以我們林保署也再請成功大學的防災研究中心再次去探測水位那經過這個吊掛小型的無人船去偵測那目前蓄水量 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3350.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3378.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
已经大量减少到大概只剩下155万吨那155万吨大概就是原先我们这个艳色湖整体这个蓄水量大概只剩下1.7%所以这个部分就跟大家报告那所以在整个后续的制裁风险的评估经过10月6号专家会议认为说其实目前在气候如果稳定的状况下在发生溃坝的几率是低的但是因为河滩两边的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3379.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3396.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
坡度是非常高聳的所以如果再有暴雨或是有地震也不排除會在這個造成這個沖刷這個砂石往下掉所以整體情形還必須要嚴密的監測那後續的監測及警戒大概分幾個一個當然是用多元的方式不管從衛星從無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3397.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3415.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
從空拍機從網路及時監測及下流的水位下游的水位監測那我想多元管道監測這是我們都持續會在做那除了下游水位監測從湖面崩塌的定位以及壩體的特徵來看之外其實整個因為下游的一些整治包括河川的侵蝕 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3417.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3443.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
也包括合體的加強增高所以我們把這個警戒值有做了一些調整那請大家看到第13頁在10月10號之後的警戒調整包括未來如果48小時預計雨量是200毫米的話會有黃色警戒如果24小時累積雨量是200毫米會是紅色警戒水位抬高0.5公尺會是紅色警戒水位抬高1公尺除了紅色警戒還要以警報台來發布警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3444.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3471.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那如果震度5弱以上也是红色警戒必须要警报台来发布警报那所谓的警报台就是说在我们原先的群组传真通报单细胞广播简讯及村里广播系统之外我们也请这个警察局警报台的发布的方式然后能够做多元的宣导以免有些民众其实没有手机也没有正好听到那用多元的方式来让大家知道说应该要做紧急撤离 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3472.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3498.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那災害復原的部分其實目前我們10月9號也再次召開專家會議專家認為就霸體的部分在現階段不宜大規模的去擾動那現階段就是以觀察監測及應變的措施所謂應變措施就是下游的疏菌跟土堤增高強化這塊來代替堰塞湖本身湖區的大規模的工程作為那這個部分我們大概就依照這個專家的建議會持續來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3500.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3507.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
包括下游的倾俗以及上游在壩体部分的紧密监测那行政院在华沙加台风 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3509.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3533.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
畫家沙颱風成立一站式平台在10月7號成立之後農業部當然也加入這個平台運作那時間不管是農民我們直接到農戶的關心或是農民到我們這一站式服務的請求包括在農地的重建包括在農機具包括在復建包括在新植包括在各種貸款延款的這個部分的說明那包括農會的這個存摺展延這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3534.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3561.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我们都在一站式的服务为农民提供一些说明那必须要申办的或是必须要登录的必须要协助的我想我们就是一站式的协助农民能够度过这次的难关那结语我想在7月26号院赛湖确认成立之后林业级自然保育署已经成立紧急应变小组在8月12日并召开第一次的专家会议那8月27由本部召开跨部位的专栏小组 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3562.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3577.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
并且在中央灾害应变中心成立之后加入整个全国的运作团队针对华嘉沙台风来袭之后所有的一些应处那在台风过后在整个艳色湖在溃体之后 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3577.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3601.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我想我們現在重要的是在壩體本身的監測這持續要做在下游的監測及這個水位的這個傾縮以及堤防的加高我想這整個都已經在進行中那不管怎麼樣要協助農民能夠在整體的復建過程當中不管是在農地的重建也好生活的恢復也好我想這是農業部的責任我想農業部會跟我們農民一直在一起以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3604.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3620.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好謝謝杜文貞常務次長那其他單位的報告我們請委員執行參閱並刊登公報那現在進行答詢那委員執行前原力做幾點宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3621.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3646.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
第一委員會發言的時間本委員會委員8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本委員會委員8分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記二臨時提案截止提出時間11點那於本委本會委員答詢完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3649.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3677.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那我們現在進行答詢請登記第一位的張宏祿委員發言好謝謝我請內政部長然後農業部長經濟部水利署副署長好請以上委員提到三位單位列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3678.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3681.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3683.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3710.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我應該不用問到10分鐘因為那麼多委員讓你們罰站太久了那我們就簡短我們就挑重點部長我想請問一下這個菸賽湖我們是不是從一開始之後各部會農業部等等的我們就都有監控到了都有隨時做這個最第一時間的這個情況的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3713.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3729.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我是不是請農業部來回應對我一起叫你們上來謝謝委員關心我想在7月26號在空刊確認有驗聖斧之後其實就是把所有的部會特別是在下游整治應該要相關包括花蓮縣政府都拿起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3730.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3754.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們都見到其實今天再問這個蠻沉重的我個人一直認為這些罹難的或什麼的其實是可避免的問題可避免而沒有避免造成今天這樣的憾事我不知道你們各位的看法如何回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3760.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3783.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
都可以啊 我一起叫上來啊謝謝委員關心我想就整個堰塞湖的監測在對於監測到的所有資訊該要公開的其實都在網站上不是啦 你就回答我的問題就好啦那我想沒有人希望這件事情發生當然所有的資訊的溝通都是希望能夠避免人員傷亡不敢回答 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3785.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3811.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
報告委員我們都了解人定無法勝天那在農業部他有持續監測但是最重要的兩個不可測的因素就是第一個艷澀湖在最後華家沙颱風的時候呢帶來大量的豪大雨當時華家沙對於不是啦部長我只你們只要回答我的問題啦其實是不是可避免你這個天然災害無法避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3812.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3841.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
是 所以我说人尽无法胜天对 但造成这么大的这么多人的罹难或什么的是不是可以避免的我们尽量要能够避免但是它事实上造成这样子的伤痛我们也是心情非常的沉重那所以我们还是尽量朝着说未来怎么样更安全的来防护包括厌射狐造成的灾害会比较好我必须这样说今天心情大家问这个问题都很沉重 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3842.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3861.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
在那邊有一個大馬村的村長整村的人人家是不是都撤離是 王子安王村長對這是不是可避免是的是不是對對嘛我覺得啦我們這一次要記起這個教訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3864.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3892.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
大家都知道撤離當然是地方政府的權限但中央跟地方要一起配合才能完成地方政府也沒有辦法知道菸塞湖它的監測狀況它也沒辦法它是要中央給它第一手的訊息它才能夠去處理那我覺得中央跟地方就是要一起配合但這一次我真的覺得這個撤離的動作如果精準確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3894.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3901.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
絕對不會發生這麼多人的罹難你的財產損失可能沒有辦法因為這是天災但財產損失了政府還可以補償但人命沒了就沒了對不對部長是對嘛所以我一直覺得我們這個部長還有經濟部農業部都在我們每年是不是都有辦防汛演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3925.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3926.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
是不是經濟部跟部長報告確實針對相關災害是有防眩演習每年都該辦吧看災害別我們有颱風水災又各主管機關去做相關的你只有回答我是不是每年都要辦是啊對啊這樣就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3949.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3975.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
對不對可不可以以後每年在辦防汛演習的時候把這一種測離因為水災我們不只是九煙塞湖土石流地區等等的這些都是會造成人命的傷亡我們以後可不可以把防汛演習把這個測離列為演習的標準項目之一可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3976.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3980.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
以水災為例我們每次都會把這個測離當作一個重點不是啦我現在問你的是我們把這個警戒區裡面的測離這個要把它列入標準的測離我們要演練的程序之一而且照測什麼什麼的要從頭到尾精準去做以後的防汛演習可不可以做到這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4005.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4017.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
在水災的部分我們會把這個撤離當作一個重點你在放錄音帶喔還是你要回去請示部長才可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4019.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4026.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
報告委員經濟部就是水災的主責機關對啊所以我問你現在未來的防汛演習可不可以把這個撤離這個是當成標準最重要的演練之一嘛你就回答是就好了啊你剛剛問那麼多這是人命的事耶我覺得以前就是沒有這樣子嘛沒有嚴格的要求嘛所以你變成地方的造冊根本不確實嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4051.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4059.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
如果每個都像大馬村的村長這樣子今天我看傷亡的人數會大幅降低我們只有財產的損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4061.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4087.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們是人命重要比財產更重要所以我今天說要求你們這樣你剛說可以嘛可以以後我們就照這樣來做嘛那如果地方政府都能夠在平時把照冊實際居住的人有多少人都照冊精準然後我們演練配合內政部配合所有部會演練每次的撤離就是照 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4089.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4098.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這樣子精準的演練我相信未來不會再發生這樣的事不然地方的造冊你中央也沒有辦法去檢驗它到底造冊準不準部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4100.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4127.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
可以 你們可以百分之百檢驗到他們造冊準不準嗎不容易因為剛剛跟那個委員了解的一樣譬如說急在人不在或者是臨時返鄉的不特定人口所以我們通常都是在這個汛期之前或颱風之前要求地方的民政單位要能夠確實掌握住在縣地的人到底有多少人這樣子在做疏散撤離的時候呢才能夠精準把握那但是這通常都是要村裡幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4127.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4146.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
或是地方的這個消防或警察或者是社會處的同仁才會知道說這邊到底有多少人我知道啦這個都是地方造冊啦我當過地方的民政局長我非常清楚啦如果認真做的就會做到百分之九十九啦我們也不敢說百分之百啦因為有時候可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4148.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4170.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
去那邊工作的人他昨天來你多一個人你也不知道但我們至少能夠做到99%但你中央可能沒有辦法拿到確實的數據對不對所以你地方如果沒有嚴格去做到我認為以後還是同樣的情況會發生所以我才會說你今天造成這樣子我認為地方的造冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4174.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4198.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
真的是出了很大的問題不然也不會說災區的人連便當都沒有拿到如果你照冊精準怎麼可能連便當都沒拿到這是新聞播的所以我在這邊請所有的部會我們未來防汛演習把這一種土石流或這一種類似這種比較有可能發生要撤離的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4200.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4210.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
變成標準的程序 標準的作業啦這樣子每年來做啦 每年檢驗啦才不會再有這種情況發生啦我不知道可不可以剛剛經濟部說可以了 那其他部會可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4217.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4236.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
也是要照這樣子來做因為其實有這樣的好 謝謝好 謝謝那內政部我們應該也可以吧對 我們按照那個災救法一定會按照這樣的方式要求地方政府一定要能夠確實造冊配合而且要實時更新因為其他的縣市政府其實有人做得到譬如說高雄市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4237.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4256.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
他們在颱風有一級警戒的時候知道山上的狀況其實馬上就做預防性的撤離我想預防性的撤離最近這幾年大家都常聽到就是說我們認為可能天災造成的危害比較大那預防性撤離就有必要而不是等到說真正這個颱風警報到的時候才做撤離這會有撤離上面的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4257.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4274.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
對啦我覺得還是一句話啦平時有做啦然後你們各部會如果地方在防汛演習他沒有照規定來沒有嚴格的做你們的補助很多的東西在你們手上你就不配合那我們就是要檢討每年防汛演習的最後的檢討不是檢討假的我覺得要這樣子才可以救很多人謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4291.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4297.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
接下來我們請王美惠委員質詢蘇曉惠委員不好意思蘇曉惠委員好謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4320.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4342.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好 部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4345.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4349.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4365.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4370.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4390.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4394.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
讓整個機制可以做到最好部長你同意這個狀態嗎是 完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4407.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4414.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4436.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4442.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4465.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4471.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
該中央擔的絕不推諉但該地方做的也要讓地方讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4488.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4494.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
夠不夠嚴格執行夠不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4517.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4525.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
非常多次吧 我剛剛報告有七次以上 甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的 大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4545.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4559.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
是 谢谢委员的指教我想委员他侧重在监控以及后面的疏散撤离的部分确实这有中央跟地方上在这个协同救灾或是协同做疏散撤离上面是不是有各尽善尽职责 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4560.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4577.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那有關這方面的救責的部分除了院長提到說救災為先救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面但是每一次補責一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4585.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4597.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制這是這一次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣人口加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4605.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4626.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好 所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好 剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來 第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4635.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4660.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
對 這其實是防空 我相信大家都比較熟悉這個這個從小聽到大 大家都有練習 認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊 我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好 部長 我告訴你 我覺得你不知道 很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況小防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4667.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4695.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以我還要在那邊算這是不是五秒嗎因為他會連續發八次到九次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這次在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chat GPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4710.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4727.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
部長 這個就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報 誤發警示所謂有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後 最後由中央 依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲 這個是我們的海嘯警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4735.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4740.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4760.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4762.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4777.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4792.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4800.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4807.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4819.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4825.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
可以討論啦我想我的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4845.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4850.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4871.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4881.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4895.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4915.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部我認為這個可以討論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4919.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4941.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這是這個 這個是第二題最後一個啦 雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是 我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天 光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4949.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4970.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4978.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4990.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國家防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5005.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5008.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5013.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5036.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5038.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5058.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們再分派工作比較沒有但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5059.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5083.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
個別的問題我們在災後好幾天原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有怪異漏腕那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規化或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5084.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5101.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分的慢慢把它建制化的我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商好謝謝部長我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇消委員接下來我們請王美惠召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5115.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5117.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
主席我們先補充 請求四方部長委員你早補充先補充在這段時間說實在九月二三發生這件事發生這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5133.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5139.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
說實在,大家如果看到電視,無法想像發生在台灣中華民國包括我再來,我早上回去看到電視的時候我當作是日本的海嘯重播 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5152.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5157.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
是我看到旁邊一個三千人我告訴你,這發生在我們中華民國的台灣所以在這個規定,不如剛才我們經濟部也說說在七月,他就知道有這個問題在陸陸續續開限制會,討論限制事情的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5181.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5184.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
結果像剛才補充的說我們的天災地變我們沒有辦法去預防也不夠我們可以堅強、順序在這個過程當中 說實在包括剛才 朝會 劉威說的說大家如果說到 這些問題 心肝都很乾脆的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5209.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5213.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你看我們如果能夠早點撤離那位我們傷亡的這19位不會過往的還有過往的失蹤的 沒錯在這個過程當中 我們不是要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5231.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5235.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
什麼人認真 什麼人怎麼樣我們是要想想 怎麼樣讓我們的百姓可以在什麼安全的地方說實在 大家也想要住起來 大家也想要住安全的地方但是他們住到什麼時候來 他們的經濟還有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5257.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5261.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
還要在我們中央政府那裡做三天那裡做關心結果在這個過程當中本身也覺得很奇怪照這個問題剛才補充你說的高雄的政策是怎樣 他們的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5280.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5287.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
現在會發生風災 發生水災的時候是怎樣造成的政府政策 沒錯這種心事 我們中央和地方政府都要聯合去怎樣做才確定 不能說跟我們這麼大的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5306.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5309.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
做不到的 做兩個人在那裡打架我們在打架的時候一開始說八九的人失蹤了部長聽到這八九的人失蹤了你我大家人都非常感恐 非常覺得怎麼會發生這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5329.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5333.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
本身要跟你說的就是 雖然我們地方有自治法18條、19條 有規定地方要做什麼 中央要做什麼但是事情發生了 要誰知道你們中央要做什麼地方要做什麼 在區委當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5353.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5356.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
補充 你說你叫一通一通電話給館長快回來但是在你們的開會當中 他們的副館長 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5366.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5386.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
都說他們安排好了 做好了今天還會發生這樣來保證你會答謝我想這個災害的過程當中大家都清楚了那我想目前為止還是一樣我們不從究責的方向出發我們先從如何可以防止有更大的災害產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5387.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5400.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那我也非常清楚的跟委員報告就是我們在多次的聯繫當中啊我們也只能相信花蓮縣政府所提供這些不管是依親收容或者是撤離的這些人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5401.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5414.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那因為在當時啊我也請國軍或者是我們的這個替代役要到包括光復襄公所來待命如果有需要有強制撤離的部分我們希望能夠協助沒有啦 我知道這個國軍知道這裡都很認真很努力我要跟你討論的就是說要撤離的時候等於沒有撤離他過去的時候你中央知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5425.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5427.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
知道他沒有撤離嗎?沒有去說過嗎?沒有去說阿欽要撤離?跟那個大麻村長去說不說要緊張?部長,在這裏面的時候,我們19號發生覺得嚴重性的日日叫人要撤離,日日發生事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5451.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5457.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
在發生事情的時候 他們看到水泥沒兩分鐘 跑不掉啦現在我要跟你討論的就是說電影如果沒有撤離的時候你們中央有什麼方法嗎沒有啦 那個被捕官我們都不知道 要不要撤離 要不要做什麼事是必須的沒有啦 它是必須的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5481.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5484.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們有什麼方法可以來合作來中央和地方可以來檢慶上海沒有啦我不是說我們的地方還是我們的中央是要怎麼讓你們知道該撤離的沒撤離的要過境還可以加強沒有啦過境有這個問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5507.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5510.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
你剛才也說 聽起來也難看我想再回憶 本來的狀況就是當時如果有做廣播撤離的時候光復相公所確實有告訴我們說它的廣播系統出問題但是花蓮縣的警察局 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5525.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5538.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
他們在光復的部分趕快派出消防車跟警車用廣播的方式請大家趕快離開然後花蓮縣政府知道說我們疏散撤離的人數高達有1837戶的時候到真正艷澀湖有這個潰堤的危機總共是超過將近43個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5546.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5556.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
也就是說如果趕快做疏散撤離包括我們常常在講的預防性撤離一定是保全戶也就是有身障或是年紀大的那同時我們也告訴他說因為按照花蓮縣他們的疏散撤離計畫確實有個叫垂直避難那這一次呢罹難的很多老人家他們幾乎都是集中在一樓因為最後他淤沙的程度呢是在一樓以下那往二樓三樓的也是一個可以撤離的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5573.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5598.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
第一個就是說大家會覺得說好像過去農業部一直推動說有黃色警戒或紅色警戒的撤離計劃很多人覺得那沒問題可能第一個掉以輕心但是這個都是後話第二個就是說疏散撤離的過程當中人力夠不夠按照我們現在中央跟地方所了解的部分人力在疏散撤離上面應該是夠的但是比較重要是戶口的清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5598.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5619.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
你到底知不知道現在房子裡面住的是多少人他能不能離開所以我們看到很多讓人家心痛的這個部分產生的時候我們還是一樣非常沉痛任何一個生命的損失都是我們無法沉痛的部分所以我在很多工作會議裡面都特別提到這個垂直的撤離的方式是人命保全最重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5620.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5645.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
財產損失是次之的所以我是覺得這樣子的溝通計畫還是要跟大家再繼續加強那當然中間有一位村長他全村都撤離我也跟委員報告這位村長他在112年的時候有榮獲我們消防署的一個韌性社區所以他不只撤離挨家挨戶去請人家離開他還用他的主語用廣播系統告訴人家一定要離開而且全村都巡視 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5646.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5660.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以他是一個非常好的一個地方上的一個村長我們希望用他的案例當成是一個示範的案例未來再推廣很多有需要疏散撤離甚至強制疏散撤離的部分當成一個最好的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5661.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5676.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
因為我們一定是知道人定真的無法勝天沒有人知道到底什麼時候會有產生溢流因為我也跟委員報告那一天早上當我們知道這個溢流口只剩下幾公尺的時候早上4點鐘我們的消防署長就開始召開會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5677.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5700.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
然後七點鐘的時候每一次農業部發表了紅色紅色紅色從八點一直發布紅色警戒兩個小時發布一次到下午兩點半的時候才產生從早上八點到兩點半產生的時候一直在通知地方上要趕快來協助但是真的就是憾事發生那既然憾事發生的話大家都要能夠理解說未來我們到底溝通的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5700.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5706.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
法令上不足的部分或者是我們整個的疏散撤離企劃有不夠明確的部分的話還是需要深切的檢討啦對啦 保庭你剛才就是說溝通的問題 撤離的問題在這個過程當中 我覺得在法律當中也有一些不足的地方我們未來要趕緊去改啦在這個過程當中你看事情發生之後你看有很多人做志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5730.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5733.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
在這個過程 大家不是做志工而已入獄的時候 那個心情看多艱苦所以保證 我想跟你說 我們最重要最重要的天災我們沒辦法去預防 要不然我們要撤離的時候我們一定要做到最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5752.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5755.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
因為你剛才說的大馬村 那個村長有受過分跟他能說 也能說他的族 民族 他的威嚴跟八村那個 但是我們不能讓任何一村來受盡他們的風險所以未來的時候 不管在哪一個地方我們要去訓練他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5782.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5787.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
公佈電台也不可以廢棄啦那個廣播系統剛才你說的那種小型的車一直廣告一直廣告這個有看到嗎?可不可以沒有那麼的發展呢?公佈的時候可以再減輕?最難的啦在這裡面普通 你看大家都要再努力因為未來會重建的路 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5812.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5818.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們現在跟花蓮互相加油有未來的一天跟我們一起繼續所有事情像鳳林 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5826.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5827.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
謝謝王美惠 接下來請黃婕蕙委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5856.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5860.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
好謝謝主席我們先請農業部次長請農業部次長好杜次長早安那今天這個談到花蓮艷澀湖的事情其實真的非常難過因為上週我也有去到現場那其實看到現場真的是很震撼也非常難過那我也是在那邊協助了一整天那也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5885.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5903.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那首先要請教的次長先請教次長的還是這個精準造冊跟弱勢方案撤離的事情因為其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩然後也很多是行動不便或者是他沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5904.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5909.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以我在看到我們農業部其實這一次是依照這個艷澀湖警戒監測跟撤離和演練方案應該是依照這個原則來進行撤離的但是可以看到因為花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群甚至是說可能所有的住戶都沒有精準的造冊導致說第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5929.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5954.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
甚至到後來對於災民包括如何領便當如何聯繫如何提供物資還有安置的方案等等都變成沒有辦法進行所以精準造冊真的非常的重要尤其是裡面到底有哪一些是弱勢族群應該要優先挑出來的那就剛剛次長的報告其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群甚至要提早進行撤離 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5956.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5979.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個其實我在高雄非常有感因為我們在高雄在做的也都是甚至是黃色警箭就進行預防性的撤離那甚至這個預防性撤離是知道說這一戶家裡有人行動不便那我們派車去載你是做到這種程度所以這一次我很難過的是說那就像這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間去協助他們從家裡帶他們出來這個非常非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5984.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6003.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊第一時間不知道警報聲音可能他聽不到那這些人到底怎麼辦所以我在這邊建議因為其實我看到這個你們依照這個驗色壺警戒監測及撤離演練方案裡面是不是可以把它寫得更細 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6004.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6026.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我只能寫得更細緻說因為像你們在土石流跟大規模崩塌的防災疏散避難規定裡面其實有寫到說要把這個弱勢族群要執行民眾的疏散避難與收容其實是相對的寫得比較細緻一點所以我在這邊具體的建議是不是堰塞湖這個的避難方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6027.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6044.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
也把弱勢族群到底如何把這個明確的SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情我們可不可以來研擬這是應該要的謝謝委員提醒我想其實這次真是沒人願意看到這樣狀況但是在這樣慘痛的事情之後我想只能求接下來希望能夠更 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6045.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6072.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
避免這樣的事情發生那對於各項的原則都有但是應該要做到更精準的掌握跟落實的去執行所以即便是在中央災害面中心成立在9月21號其實我們就已經通知說就弱勢族群請優先趕快撤離但是確實是在這個不管是資訊的掌握上面名冊也好或是怎麼去舒展這塊我想將來都還有在經濟空間確保我想在 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6072.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6099.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
人員的安全的保障這塊其實是我們所有防災最重要的事情好這個真的要拜託次長因為我在這邊也不想真的再究責誰也不想說這個是分中央還是地方的責任而是既然現在我們發現有事情如果可以做得更好或許可以挽救更多人的生命那我們就來做吧如果地方政府確實力有畏大或是他們他們的能力或許 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6100.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6118.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
不如我們地方中央來協助的話那我認為中央就應該要來協助所以我相信救人這件事情沒有在分的所以真的拜託如果可以我們就把它訂得更細緻那如果地方政府他們沒有發現這個是必須要改善的問題那我們就來協助吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6119.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6126.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好這個要拜託那當然我也很感謝農業部啦因為其實我看到這個林保署的影片他們長途跋涉跟成大的團隊還有我們這個特遣隊到這個夜色湖的現場然後是這樣經過五天 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6134.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6156.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
然後甚至是涉嫌走這個受盡走一些舊林道然後走到現場去把這些現場的畫面記錄下來以及記錄現場最新的這個蓄水量都是他們在現場監測那我覺得這個是必須要給他們肯定也非常感謝他們謝謝我們農業部好謝謝那我們剩下一點時間我們拜託那個內政部劉部長請劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6164.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6178.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
委員好好部長好在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統或者是廣播系統出狀況了 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6183.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6209.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
他們是會派動所有的區長那邊的所長甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮因為看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6210.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6228.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6230.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6250.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
現在我們的備變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6251.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6278.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6280.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6306.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
好 這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對 那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6310.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6332.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面的都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握的很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6332.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6348.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛朝會委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那當然沒辦法指揮沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6352.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6379.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6380.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6397.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6407.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6431.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6431.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6460.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特收隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6461.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6478.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6489.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6510.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6511.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6533.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6534.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6558.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己自我保護最重要要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6559.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6579.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
是啦 我覺得這次真的是非常好的一個經驗那最後還是要拜託部長我覺得這個大馬村的王村長模式必須要建立這是我認為今天最重要的一件事情希望未來每一個社區都可以像王村長這樣做到百分之百的撤離好 我們會來努力好 謝謝部長好 謝謝王傑委員接下來我們請徐宇甄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6593.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6603.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
謝謝主席謝謝召委我們請劉世芳劉部長跟園民會曾主委還有農業部杜汶珍請以上列到列席徐汶豪部長好還有曾主委還有杜次長我想這一次的這個花家沙颱風的來襲造成了很大的一個災害這也是我們今天這個該這個專報所要大家共同來探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6623.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6629.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
事前跟事後未來要怎麼來去預防的方式那當然因為這一次在9月21號上午9點召開首次的會議開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6634.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6661.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
當時這個馬太安溪這個堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右那一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村裡那大概也大概只有600人但是在晚間6點的時候召開第三次會議的時候撤離的人數就從600人要增加到七八千人所以包括鳳林鎮長光復鄉長都說在短期內要通知這些民眾要離開是有困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6662.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6678.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了那我們來看一下在林保署他的通報時間說有總共有九次的通報撤離包括我們看到第一次是在9月20的一般警戒第二次是在9月21、11點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6682.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6700.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是鹿警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流會那請花蓮縣政府立即這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6701.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6726.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
然後到9月23 2點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離這個應該是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6732.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6752.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家莎風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6754.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6769.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的區域我現在指的是畫家沙封災對 畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6785.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6788.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6802.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6814.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6817.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6840.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對 那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛 對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6842.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6845.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6859.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6886.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長 光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6887.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6904.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候呢我們也邀集包括這個花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的這個人數往上調升 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6905.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6930.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協作一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6932.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6933.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎嚴副縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復襄公所待命 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6945.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6965.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6977.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6997.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
報告委員 這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在艷澀湖的因為它並不是法定可以使用海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令就對了 是嗎我特別要 這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過 它欠缺法源 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6997.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7018.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7020.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7027.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字它會更聽細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7040.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7057.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些就是只要在光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在框鏈的區通通都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7058.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7068.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快因為還有包含其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7084.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7102.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7105.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7108.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7125.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7128.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7141.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7158.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個社會防禁委員會主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備你跟我講不是它是在重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防疫任性我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的我們要這個目前有多少名利請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7160.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7184.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再去查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7185.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7206.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下 也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們在全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7208.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7214.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
就是我剛所說的我們有一些易景易銷民房全部加在內去年應該說今年有三億八千多萬的一個經費請問一下在這一次的這個我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7226.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7234.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7255.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7268.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7270.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7286.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明這是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是1777 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7288.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7294.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7317.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7321.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7334.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7351.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種救災的時候發揮效果不好意思 還沒訓練但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動一定要好好的事後檢討我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7351.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7360.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候中央市要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7379.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7383.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
717人為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛人力就是不夠志工他自願來幫忙我們非常感謝那如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7402.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7420.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7425.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7446.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
有啊 我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園 原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7447.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7450.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7465.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7478.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個華家山風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7487.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7506.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全那我覺得其實在不管是國家公園署跟警察局都已經知道要料敵從嚴的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為劃加沙風災要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7512.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7532.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7536.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7550.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好謝謝許正委員接下來請高津素梅委員來質詢那在高津素梅質詢在這個李博義委員質詢之後我們再休息請高津素梅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7555.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7580.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
謝謝昭緯 昭緯今天排的是堰塞湖的監測災害的預警通報 疏散機制還有災害復原的重建今天這個議題非常的沉重我相信不管是任何在這邊的立法委員還有在場的官員們我們都不願意發生這樣的情況所以今天我們在討論這件事情的時候我希望大家能夠非常的嚴肅 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7581.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7601.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
而且要心懷善意而不是站在政黨的立場來看這件事情這是一個中央的機制這是一個政策的問題所以我必須要說今天來了非常多的部會我一一的唱名讓大家知道內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7602.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7618.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
內政部裡面有消防署災害管理署職通作業中心準備應變署警政署民防指揮管制所國土管理署民政司然後園民會也來了農業部也來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7619.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7642.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
然後今天還有經濟部水利署環境部環境管理署資源巡迴署衛生福利部有社會救助以及社公司心理建設師醫事師疾病管制署以及中央健康保險署醫務管理署行政院公共工程委員會技術署 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7643.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7670.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
大家可以看到光是一個風災或者是一個艷澀湖的災難中央部會就這麼多部會我今天我很想請問當然今天是內政部有來我們先請部長然後農業部也有來次長常務次長也有來原民會我請您也上台那其他的待會我們再請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7673.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7695.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我相信在場的大家我們大家都要向第一線投入搶災搶救的產值超人還有志工以及自發資源的鄉親致上我們最深的記憶他們用他們的雙手撐起了人性的光輝 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7696.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7709.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
而第一個我想問的是在艷澀湖的監測上面我的結論是我不想講細節的問題但是我的感受是我們中央政府你們掉以輕心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7710.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7726.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
你們的報告上面也說早在7月26號你們已經開始監測並且在8月27號已經成立了專案小組這意味著什麼呢這意味著中央你們有超過一個月的應變的準備時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7728.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7741.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
然而中央低估了災情的嚴重性你們認為它只是一個艷色湖你們認為它的水位沒有到多少所以沒有立即的危險但是你們忘了9月份的時候卻是台灣最多颱風的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7746.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7751.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你知道颱風現在氣候變遷所有的雨下絕對是急劇的下來所以其實你們我要說你們釣魚清新了大家都不願意這件事情發生所以我覺得就因為你們的釣魚清新讓整個應變的機制從源頭就已經失能了我很覺得奇怪也納悶既然中央已經知道這麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7774.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7794.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
為什麼不召開一個非常正式的記者會對外來說明有可能這個艷澀湖會造成什麼樣的災難因為你只是在鎖定光復鄉只是鎖定在地方政府但是有非常多的家人已經離開了光復鄉在外面工作了 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7795.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7806.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
所以呢如果我們的政府可以像一般國外海嘯要來的時候事先先發布一個正式的記者會我相信這樣子的一個記者會會讓當地的鄉親或者是在外的鄉親我們會嚴正以待我們會非常重視這件事情而不是到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7818.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7835.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
緊急的時候部長說一個垂直避難請問一下在那麼短的時間之內你要怎麼疏散八千多人所以我認為真的是掉以輕心了你們可以不用回答然後第二個災害預警通報跟疏散的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7837.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7852.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
因為掉以輕心所以整個中央單位地方單位大家是驚嚇大家是混亂的所以呢我們的預警階段的輕忽導致第一時間的應對也陷入了混亂第一時間我就打電話請我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7857.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7874.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
部落的有小怪手的然後有這個工作能力的組織了一個小小的團隊進入到了我們的災區一村一村而我自己也進去了已經到了幾天我還看到地方非常的混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7875.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7891.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
有看到國軍了有看到中央的應對小組了有看到地方的應對小組了可是我發現中央你們的橫向聯繫也非常的混亂甚至於你們跟地方的縱向聯繫也非常的混亂我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7893.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7905.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我不知道是溝通不良呢還是故意的有政治的居心我希望不要有政治的居心而這樣子的混亂導致了指揮鏈的崩潰這是我對這一次的災害所下的兩個結論當然災防法上面要怎麼樣進行更氣質的修法還有分級的規範我在這邊請召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7923.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7944.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
也能夠安排來相關的修法我們討論我們讓一些災防法他能夠更明確的更清楚的來討論來修法好不好我們不希望下次再有這麼樣混亂的局面出現好其實有一些相關的我們請部長留下來農業部你們可以先 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7949.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7974.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
先休息一下 園民會主委你也可以在場我問一下內政部的部長 請問在受災戶的基本數據上面是不是已經掌握到了受災戶的總數因為今天第三個最重要的議題就是災害復原的重建這也是所有民眾最想要知道的所以如果你沒有災戶的總數的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7976.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7992.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
或者是原住民跟漢人家庭的具體住戶的數據然後依據他的損毀的程度來劃分重中輕的級別還有中低收入戶的識別的統計我們如果沒有這些數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7995.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8022.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
繼續要混亂下去嗎請問部長報告委員我們在第一時間內行政院也就通知也是受到這樣子的影響我們公布了這次花蓮縣這三個鄉鎮那同時我們以這個9月21當時公布的1837戶為原則來處理後面的包括很多這個不管修繕也好或是家園復原的部分所以1837戶是非常明確的數字所以所有光復鄉這次驗射湖的災民總共1837戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8025.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8026.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
原名有幾戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8029.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8044.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
謝謝我們這裡看原住民的戶數大概是有1772戶所以1837戶原住民就占了1700多戶就是原住民的戶數請你講正確的戶數大概是1772戶1772所以剛剛部長說所有的災民是1837戶原住民就占了1772戶是這樣子嗎沒有錯嗎這樣子的數據請問主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8059.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8060.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
請問部長 原住民的戶數是1772戶 請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8065.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8091.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我們是協助為主所以原住民他的認定就是以原住民認定為主好所以1837戶原住民就佔了1772所以是原住民的族人是受災最多的那我要再繼續問一下主委在1772戶裡面有多少是中低收入戶有多少戶是重度的他可能要遷村的 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8091.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8099.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
有多少戶他是中度的也就是說他的家園他可能損壞他還可以進去住那有一些可能只是他的電器設備裝潢受災損這些數據你有嗎我跟委員報告這個低收入戶還有中低收入戶我們都有大概是232加212 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8114.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8140.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
232加什麼232的低收入戶然後212是中低收入戶232戶是低收入戶那麼各位報告我剛剛說的有沒有分我剛剛說的就是重度災難中度跟輕度這樣子的數據是多少這個我們要先做安全的評估啦安全評估要先做出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8141.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8163.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
房屋的結構安全的這個評估要先做出來 還沒有做但是重點是現在是這樣 各位報告沒有沒有沒有 主委主委主委你先停一下安全評估報告是後續那你現在應該這些戶數都出來了應該很清楚知道有哪些是不能回家的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8164.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8175.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
有沒有有我們跟他們在做部落會議不能回家你不要講部落會議我先問你不能回家的有幾戶那不能回家的我們才會有後續啊要怎麼樣安置他們啊能夠回家的我們要怎麼樣協助他們啊對不對來麻煩比較確定是49戶了49戶怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8188.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8192.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
安置在民宿現在不能夠回家的4449戶沒有辦法回家沒有辦法回家然後中渡呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8196.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8225.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我們就是中渡的部分我們還要再查他可以回去啦因為現在不是都清的差不多了嗎他應該都知道他能夠回去因為我們鄉親很不喜歡離開家鄉那有多少戶中渡有的是一清有的是回去我知道不要浪費時間好沒關係這些確定的數據麻煩您在我的辦公室再告訴我你們要怎麼後續做好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8225.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8250.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
另外我要請部長部長你身為警消人員的大家長在這裡我有一個請求就是要幫忙辛苦的警消人員因為有許多警察的私家車他在執勤的時候也是泡水受損了但是依照現行的規定他們只是修復或轉售他們連一毛補助都拿不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8251.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8265.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
而這些為民擋災的基層人員他今天要自己承受損失我請問一下部長你有沒有聽過這第一線的警消人員他的心聲他們可以納入被排場的範圍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8266.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8292.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
報告委員我們在第一時間內有有到三四個這個我們的第一線的這個派出所裡面去慰請那這道狀況如果是公務車的話呢我們按照公務車的修復或者公務車的補償這個我們警消自己會用預算來處理那如果是私家的部分假設他也是屬於1837戶的受災範圍內的話現在我們這個行政院的一站式服務有針對報廢車也有做提供這樣子的補償的機制不好意思部長你可能還 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8293.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8301.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
不夠精準因為他如果他不是這個1837戶的人但是事實上他是在那邊工作他沒有戶籍在那裡那他怎麼處理因為您所提到的1837戶我們確定譬如說有8000多的人口但是他是在那個地方等於是他是不在籍但是在那邊執勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8316.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8339.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那執勤的部分的話我們會來做部分的補償我知道您的意思是他去那邊上班然後他是私家車他不是公務車這個我們來處理請部長我短暫時間內會去了解一下其實這些在第一線擋災的警消人員他們負擔也很重的我知道他們非常的辛苦所以我們有保警來做替代 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8340.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8343.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
一個禮拜以後有八十一個人在替代我希望部長也能夠清楚知道他們的困境不好意思召委我再花一點時間我要要求一下請園民會請請你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8353.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8378.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
一周之內提交幾個報告給我第一個是臨時工作人員的名冊當然在保護個資之下他的薪資、他的保險、經費明細還有受災戶的細部統計第二個就是青年參與重建決策的會議記錄還有後續執行成果第三個原民服務台每天受理案件跟主要需求的分析報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8379.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8383.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
第四個 災後無法營業的原住民商家的清澈當然這是有營業登記的還有整體扶植的計畫因為這些商家也很辛苦第五個 災後就職的轉嫌還有部落的再生計畫說明如何從上工來銜接到產業賠利還有長期的就業這五個麻煩提出來給我然後在這裡我要請相關部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8409.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8415.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
只要是今天有來的話麻煩一下你們也在兩週內提供第一個近5年的艷澀湖的災情的通報撤離啟動還有實際人數的統計並且要檢討制度的落差第二個要研議災防法第24條以及執法的修正草案第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8433.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8453.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
重整災害緊急通報的格式要明確的標示警戒的分級執行責任跟法律的效力這個可能要請部長辛苦一下本席也要求按照災防法第37條災後復原重建的程序請在場的各部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8457.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8463.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
給本席一份完整的規劃報告最後我要講的是重建不該只於補貼還有清瑜更應該要補起制度的漏洞要重建人民的信任如果制度依舊是冷漠的下一次的災難不僅僅是摧毀我們的道路還有家園更會摧毀我們人民對國家的信任希望今天在場的所有官員公務人員們 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8487.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8501.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
緊記的這件我最後所說的話災害如果不好好的做他不是摧毀家園而是摧毀我們人民對國家的信任這是非常重要的以上謝謝謝謝高金委員的發言接下來我們請傅坤祺召委發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8542.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8546.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那個主席 請劉部長有請劉部長部委好部長請問從馬太西燕色湖不幸事件到現在已經21天請問檢討報告出來沒有我們在今天對於內政委員會裡面的報告就是內政部的完整的報告就是檢討報告是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8571.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8575.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
它是一個整體的報告包括從監測疫情到疏散我們現在仍然在救災當中我們可不可以等那個所有的救災都結束的時候再一起跟你們報告還沒有完整 它需要更新這一次驗射壺不幸事件到底是溢流還是潰壩 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8594.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8610.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我想這專有名詞是不是可以請林保署來做回應因為在監測的時候不管是異流或是潰堤這次華家沙颱風跟夜色湖不慶事件遮陽災應變中心指揮官是誰是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8612.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8640.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
是你所以現在到底是潰壩還是議題你到今天還沒有辦法搞清楚是嗎我想不是這樣子的解釋跟副委員報告我們有提到說他從一流開始到最後下切到非常嚴重的時候可能有產生潰壩但是這樣的專有名詞的解釋還是需要以專家他們的認定為主我並不是說不知道所以說指揮官到現在都還不知道是一流跟潰壩 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8641.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8656.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
還沒有辦法做最後的定義就對了所以你還在狀況外就對了沒有抱歉我們的意思就是說既然它產生災害我們就在中央災害應變中心以應變的方式來處理所有這樣子的天然災害好在發生事件之前所有行政院各部會會診的資料是溢流還是潰壩災害發生之前是溢流還是潰壩 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8673.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8676.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
所以農業部沒有跟您開過會是嗎所以你都在狀況外都不了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8696.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8703.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
為什麼在國會殿堂到今天事發21天你都還不敢在這裡承認是逆流還是潰壩請告訴全國人民是逆流還是潰壩 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8710.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8718.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
都有可能但是我們跟委員所說的現在定義不明確的狀況之下我們無法做這樣子的明確的解釋到現在說可能是潰壩也可能是溢流好在災情發生之前你們提的報告是溢流還潰壩我可不可以請林保守跟你回答本席請你回答你是指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8732.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8748.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
報告委員我一再強調我知道但是是華家沙颱風成立的中央災害應變中心我是擔任指揮官但是在這之前謝謝你終於再記得你是指揮官在9月23號本席因為等卓榮泰院長來拜訪最後請我到中央災害應變中心去本席去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8760.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8765.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
本席在當場聽到您的報告是不是講一流是不是是不是您的報告是不是講一流還有錄音錄影喔是因為我是引用您保守的資料摘錢在發生前幾個小時應變中心指揮官還說是一流謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8784.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8794.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
本席那天特別當了索隆泰院長跟各部會指揮官尤其是您面前本席特別提到在8月13號丹納斯特別條例通過的時候把馬太西堰舍湖納入必須要徹底解決農業部長陳俊濟當眾表達沒有立即性的危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8813.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8841.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
本席當天還特別強調為什麼說沒有立即性的危險然後現在說可能會逆流好本席那天講的話你既然報告裡沒有寫到本席的名字請你完整一下把我當天提出來的意見要寫上去今天你的報告有提到本席的名字請把本席當天講的事情一併寫清楚再過來請問一下指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8843.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8862.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
什麼時候發布紅色警戒總諮詢問過一次再問一次紅色警戒中央災害應變中心什麼時候發布紅色警戒9月22日早上7點北溪在問部長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8864.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8873.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
部長是不知道這個時間還要你來講嗎報告委員我們都非常清楚發射紅色警戒是農業部要負責發射北溪問題都是很簡單的問題所以所以9月22號上午7點紅色警戒部長是嗎是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8887.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8900.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
剛剛我們的林保署的署長已經跟您這個問題還要請別人回答你沒有辦法我們的全責分工上面非常的清楚報告委員全責分工很清楚指揮官什麼都不知道就對了9月17號農業部的報告在運會總質詢問過一次農業部當天好這請農業部來回答當天9月17號農業部的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8916.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8917.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
說到撤離人數是多少人陳俊基已經在院會講過了跟委員報告那個時候還沒有花家殺颱風的因素不是嘛就告訴本席嘛你們很奇怪耶你問你自己提出的報告上面寫幾個人還有這麼多理由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8938.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8958.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
58戶但是人數是由地方政府提供人數是由地方政府提供的請你看一下你農業部的報告是嗎上面是寫45人但是那個人數是地方政府提供的我們只框定區域58戶45人而且那個下面還有一個附註他是說不包含會提的影響那個委員剛剛那句話下面還有一句話再過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8966.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8969.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
9月21號農業部的報告9月21號好洪峰到達的時間從本來的95分鐘修正到多少本來的95分鐘請次長來回答你們不要在那裡120分鐘所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8995.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9022.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
原本預估是95分鐘在9月21號改成120分鐘認為災情即便是有災情沒有這麼嚴重是90分鐘延到120分鐘然後要撤離的對象從修正前也就是楊柳颱風楊柳颱風撤離多少戶多少人最後是將近700人259戶697人 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9026.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9048.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
你們9月21號修正以後是多少比楊柳颱風多還是比楊柳颱風少也是差不多600多人那個範圍有稍微縮減一點但是也有新的增加但是這個是我還是要說明一下本席在說話請你回答再會請你你們的資料改從259戶的楊柳颱風改成縮小範圍180戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9055.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9084.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這是農業部的資料清清楚楚好所以這不是不叫而殺而已啊是農業部的範圍整體一直在縮小我跟委員報告這個隨著情勢一定會一直調整的所以請劉部長您剛剛在本委員會報告說好9月21號下午 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9086.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9100.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
下午3點以後改成撤離將近1800戶對不對總共1837戶當時是黃色警戒還是紅色警戒 9月21號9月21號當時還沒有紅色警戒對 所以是什麼警戒黃 黃色警戒所以當時的黃色警戒要撤離哪些人依法要撤離哪些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9113.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9141.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
報告委員9月21號下午3點是一個檢討的會議跟討論的會議所以我們當時已經決定採用台大團隊最高的標準本席現在再一次請教您要撤離哪些人黃色警戒本席先問一個最簡單的題目9月21號貴行政院指揮中心黃色警戒要撤離的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9142.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9167.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
行動不變的人你都到今天還搞不清楚本席告訴你行動不變的人所以45位行動不變在這一次完全免於災就在黃色警戒的時候45位愛養中心的全部撤離因為那個時候黃色警戒是要撤離行動不變好9月22號上午7點紅色警戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9171.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9187.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
到9月23號自災短短一天之內請問行政院災害應變中心有沒有跟地方政府來協調來輔導來核定怎麼樣的疏散計畫 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9192.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9201.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
報告委員到紅色警戒開始的時候是強制撤離強制撤離的時候就是開始要疏散所有在強制撤離的範圍有作業規定嘛行政院都已經上次總質詢上禮拜二總質詢已經就教過了嘛到現在你們都還搞不清楚嗎這麼大的範圍從185變成1800再變成8600人 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9223.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9235.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
你們的整體的疏散計畫有七個部會必須要來輔導而且必須要來核定你們在22號早上有沒有積極的來處理這個問題 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9239.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9258.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們當然是非常積極 這是法律規定的作用規定有沒有有沒有報告委員強制疏散撤離如果才需要公文來核定的話太慢應該是所有的人開始要做動作那這些動作需要法軍或是替代役幫忙我們都全力協助強制撤離是由哪一個單位來執行還是由地方政府包括花蓮縣政府以及三個鄉鎮公所 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9269.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9298.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
胡說八道由國軍跟其他的人來協助胡說八道災害防救法第十條水災潛勢地區速產作業標準這是常識你在高雄市政府擔任過秘書長不要在這裡裝瞎我在高雄市政府沒有擔任過秘書長你是副市長沒有關係不要裝瞎不要裝瞎災害防救法第十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9300.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9327.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
水災潛勢危險地區撤離標準作業程序誰哪個單位政府哪個單位負責哪個單位負責哪個單位負責水災的部分是由經濟部但是呢我們依據災害防救法的第10條鄉鎮市山地原住民以及山地原住民災害防救匯報的核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9330.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9351.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
是由哪個單位負責撤離我剛已經跟那個委員報告過了你不認識字嗎你照這個第十條念出來給我聽不要在這裡裝瞎嘛再加上經濟部災害防救法第十條是指鄉鎮三地原住民區公所跟三地原住民的災害防救匯報他們的任務鄉鎮市還有三地原住民區域地方的鄉鎮公所及 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9359.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9385.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
山地原住民區域防救匯報任務如下所有這些疏散作業是由執行單位是哪個單位剛剛我跟委員報告過了再把潛勢溪流這個水災辦法水災的潛勢溪流我想是由經濟部來主導來疏散及收容作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9388.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9403.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
蘇珊吉收容作業是哪個單位負責蘇珊吉撤離作業都是依照災害防救法相關規定縣市政府還有鄉鎮公所來做主導你不要一直扯縣市政府嘛你連白紙黑紙都不會讀嗎哪一個政府單位負責撤離作業縣市政府跟鄉鎮公所你是瞎了是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9418.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9420.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
你把全文讀一次給本席聽你們今天全部人都裝瞎這個不會讀是嗎要不要到國小重新讀一支書讀一次讀一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9448.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9476.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這下市及縣市政府應督導鄉鎮市區公所辦理撤離作業整備並落實疏散避難計劃鄉鎮市公所應整備事項如下有五項好講得很清楚了你們不要在這裡影射攻擊撤離單位不管是颱風全國各縣市都一樣你可以下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9477.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9506.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你可以下去請部長上來每一個縣市政府都做過颱風的撤離颱風的撤離所有撤離的工作由鄉鎮市公所各區區公所來撤離所有該區的警察消防軍卡預知兵力通通由鄉鎮市公所區政府區公所來負責撤離的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9507.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9536.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
把資料撤離之後匯整到縣市政府縣市政府是報到中央災害應變中心所有縣市政府的能量全部下放到各鄉鎮公所應變中心由各鄉鎮公所應變中心來指揮這是最基本的Lesson 1叫你們念念國字都不敢念天天栽贓花蓮縣政府好 你們要栽贓花蓮縣政府 可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9537.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9546.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
撤離執行單位就是鄉鎮市公所白紙黑字的法律規定再過來你說扯到花蓮縣政府可以花蓮縣政府之前所有中央災害應變中心要求他們撤離是600人楊柳颱風8月12號撤離600人所以所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9566.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9581.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
剛剛還有人提大馬村全數撤離大馬村就是楊柳颱風600人裡面全村就在那個範圍就是因為在那個範圍所以全數撤離因為他們已經全部撤離過一次這次是第二次本席在這裡啊隆重告訴你行政院政務委員金連成現在在花蓮前進協調所跟地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9596.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9618.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
協調七個部會依法要輔導地方政府要核定疏散疏散計畫疏散路線疏散收容還有五個部會必須跟地方政府要來對整個收容的整備計畫要做出來現在從10月3號討論到 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9623.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9635.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
從10月3號討論到現在11天都還沒有演練都還沒有核定你短短9月22號紅色警戒9月22號紅色警戒你要一天之內要光復相公所撤離8600人從600人變成8600人當然我要對部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9650.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9674.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
你給地方的建議可以垂直撤離已經事實證明垂直撤離是不可行的所以這也是固然是撤離的方式之一但是過去台灣都沒有使用過這次您特別強調劉部長要不要我幫您回憶一下還是要放您的錄音帶給您聽聽看有沒有需要謝謝委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9679.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9683.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
要垂直撤離嘛最多是家門口有水淹過而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9684.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9709.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
報告委員我想我的實意不是這個樣子我正在從當時的所有的直播的狀況錄音錄影的部分把原先所講的字數或是我講的部分全部把它一字一字把它列出來那我所了解不是這樣的狀況委員可能誤解人生沒有關係啦全國國人可以來看啦報告委員隨時避難的人數呢總共是5348人檢討報告有一個很重要我請你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9713.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9719.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
本席在詢問法務部在詢問左院長通通詢問過請您把檢討報告裡面要把這兩項加進去剛剛我謝謝蘇委員 蘇喬惠委員也有問過8月11號花蓮縣政府官務相公所 農業部 經濟部所做的決議有錄音 有會議記錄要求農業部必須釋放 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9743.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9755.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
海嘯警報請問指揮官放了沒有在9月23之前沒有釋放過9月23號當天海嘯來有釋放嗎沒有再過來農業部很奇怪經濟部有問題農業部又提醒農業部有問題但農業部又提醒經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9773.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9787.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
去年康瑞颱風就是從這次的一流口進來的兩個開口題要請他補起來有錄音有會計錄結果經濟部把這兩個開口題又沒有把它補好大水就是從那裡進來就是從那裡進來部長可以把這個納入檢討報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9800.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9813.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這個在我會請農業部跟經濟部把相關的會議記錄把它列出來給賴總統的報告前進協調所給賴總統報告第一頁就講得很清楚厭賽福警戒發布第一個就講得很清楚要發海嘯警報行政院在製證農業部其罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9829.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9853.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
還不只這樣行政院又自認經濟部其罪在前進協調所的報告10月4號完成第一道5米防線2860公尺5米高的防線還提前兩天作業完成8月11號會議記錄就叫他要做為什麼災後他才會做 災前都不會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9855.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9884.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
沒有那2870米是颱風來的時候沖毀的沒有關係啦不是在那次的專案小組專案小組會議的交代的事項我們都已經完成了你要回去跟卓榮泰院長講卓榮泰院長說要依法調查要依法調查還給王林啊還給王林一個公道你跟卓榮泰院長去報告吧他不查未來還有人會查 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9885.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9887.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
接下來最後我要請教劉思芳劉部長我們有沒有中央政府劉部長我們有沒有中央政府有沒有應變中心報告委員我們當然有中央政府但是中央災害應變中心注重在應變 請問一下災情發生之後到現在為了炒誰是主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9913.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9940.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
本席在10月7號問了左院長這一題問了整整三分鐘他才承認主責單位是行政院各部會災後救災的部分是行政院各部會那我請問一下鋪天蓋地的謠言依照災害防救法應該要來告發是三年以下有期徒刑病科罰金100萬請問內政部告發了幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9943.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9967.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
報告委員我們尊重院長的指示先救災再救責那目前為止呢我們 從後災院長9月24號就去救責了講得這麼清楚報告委員我要放他的錄影帶出來再放給你看嗎我們現在收集到他到行政院提的施政總報告馬上就提要救責要查到底這是院長提的本席在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9973.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9997.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
證告你你說九次通報九次通報花蓮縣政府草菅人民不管九次通報是只有第九次是紅色警戒其他前面六次是八月的洋流颱風這種造謠的圖卡一天到晚在傳第二組黨一組團白飯或卓榮泰院長還說你們組黨一組團白飯請問一組團白飯部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10003.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10013.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
是誰阻擋的是誰阻擋的報告委員我不清楚那該不該要查報告委員我剛還沒有昨晚院長都公開講了嘛說你們黨議組團的白飯誰擋的報告委員我們現在收集的資料憲兵跟保警內政部來的保警擋下來的誰擋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10028.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10057.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
該不該當 本席問你該不該當報告委員 我還是跟委員報告就是我們現在在收集所有的資料本席讓你知道 你收集了這麼多天地方政府疲於救災十分的力量在救災還有透支二十分的力量來對付謠言所以請地方政府把這些謠言送給中央災害應變中心我們一定用災害防救法來移送 都沒有問題內政部這麼大的部沒有辦法查辦嗎 沒有辦法告發嗎一天到晚看到這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10058.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10064.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
本席沒有責怪沒有責怪憲兵因為他們在詢問是否有義務要進去災區災區裡面全部塞得滿滿有幾萬人在裡面種機械連會車都沒有辦法他們本來就要問你進來要幹什麼他們不只是一組團的白飯問清楚又讓他們進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10086.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10112.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
也沒有阻擋 問清楚就進去了實際的藥品 問清楚也都進去了沒有一個 沒有一粒白飯擋在外面通通進來了再過來說獨輪車 花蓮先生把獨輪車藏起來了結果事實上是什麼事實上事實上是行政院的東辦的行政院東辦的倉庫不是花蓮先生我的倉庫再過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10115.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10123.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所謂黨議組談白飯是為了圖利熱海便當這個花蓮縣陳王廟出來告了所有的熱海便當把熱海便當圖交出來熱海便當全部是陳王廟送的花蓮縣政府沒有買沒有買熱海便當全部在造謠還有高壓水槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10141.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10159.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
說富坤吉徐政委只會貼貼紙把人家捐出來的東西貼貼紙對不起啊這是花蓮縣政府環保局買的這是公務本來就應該要載明他是哪個單位的所屬還有七歲女童把管死掉了賺人熱淚後來是謠言這一次的救災荒腔走板主責單位是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10171.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10182.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
問了卓榮泰院長 問了三分鐘他才說是行政院科部會這是我們的政府讓產值超人台灣有一流的國民無流的政府謝謝副總召的諮詢接下來我們請劉旭廷委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10202.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10204.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
謝謝主席 劉部長有請請部長月豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10211.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10238.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
部長辛苦了這個中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設9月21號下午5點半一級開設指揮官是你對不對剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事是化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心災害應變中心嘛對不對我們就講化家沙颱風因為其他還有像屏東跟台東他們也都是災區還有高雄所以那個化家沙成立的時候大家都知道化家沙成立他是從南台灣過去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10239.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10261.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
只不過在花蓮山區裡面他累積是大豪雨的雨量所以造成這次晏射湖的這個事件你不只是這次的指揮官我剛聽你回答我們副總召的質詢我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官原因是什麼呢因為在颱風之前你剛這我根據你剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷在沒有颱風的時候恐怕你也沒有角色沒辦法進場你也沒有辦法做指揮對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10264.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10280.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
按照這個災害防救法確實沒有錯因為艷澀湖的組織機關在那個我們災害防救法現在是監測是由農業部來處理所以在這樣一個情況下甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話所以我講你很無奈 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10280.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10300.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
事實上我們當初也都非常相信都基於善意去相信政府的消息我們有在政論節目上面要評論等等受訪我們一開始也都講一流後來發現是潰壩這其實證明了一件事情就是說你中央整體啊在處理這花家沙的時候有一個多頭馬車的狀況彼此部會之間的認知不一樣所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛對不對你本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10304.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10331.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個到底要用一流的模型來做處理還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理來做後續的一些安排恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識對嗎我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分第一個持續監測的任務呢在農業部的林保署其實他們跟相當多的這個學者專家都有做研究但是你說使用的參數如果不一樣譬如說他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10333.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10351.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
或者是說當時是天氣晴的狀況之下所以說可能會產生溢流那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話可能就會產生潰敵或是潰壩所以這樣的定義啊很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們那我們在中央災害醫院中心成立之後有做了很多作為也可以供大眾來檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10352.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10366.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那我就簡單來講嘛 對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10368.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10393.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢皮球是沒有什麼意思的啦因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10395.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10416.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我剛剛都講了 連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓種 誰來認定這個事情 對不對是一直到應變中心 因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮 在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢 對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部 跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險 應該要疏散 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10417.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10444.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好像不太行吧報告 報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對艷澀湖會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10445.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10465.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10466.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10490.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10491.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10509.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
你有多大的權力負多大的責任但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10510.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10523.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
一般來講 但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛 對不對它有聯邦情形事務管理署FEMA 對不對日本勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10525.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10542.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災team嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10545.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10560.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
變成災防就辦公室 變任務型編組現在是20幾個人 等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少 也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊 對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說記者圍觀表現還不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10566.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10584.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
但是技術微觀之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了大家講說我們要趕快統合所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前會末鐘一事會多頭馬車呢那請問這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要我請問部長的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10585.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10600.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10601.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10630.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個字典會想要聽到的是我們中央接下答案怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10631.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10655.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
三個方向 第一 也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等 但我認為總要討論 這第一第二 很多人談災害防救法也好 地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情 因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件 他講的就是失靈嘛 對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三 還是部長認為現行機制非常好 什麼都不用討論 請問是哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10656.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10682.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10683.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10703.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個呢我希望那個消防署呢他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10704.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10729.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講你在災後上後調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源這我們都非常肯定但問題是現在在談的是前期嘛好你現在講消防組我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力他有辦法跟農業部林保署好好溝通然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10730.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10740.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10741.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10767.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了 狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10769.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10795.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以意識不足 大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府 鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10795.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10805.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
是真正要做疏散撤離這樣子才會把大家的危機意識提升你這還是都在討論法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10822.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10848.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10850.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10874.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等你做不做得到嘛你剛講你都有個但書嘛如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣你是做得到的那表示什麼在那個當下恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10875.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10897.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣空出更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10898.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10922.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案嗎我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10923.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10928.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
報告委員因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置所以需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10933.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10961.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的艷澀湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為艷澀湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個九千一百萬方的這個艷澀湖我恐怕現在目前是最大的一個艷澀湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來三千一百萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10961.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10963.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10969.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10989.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
你內閣部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各部的分工問題嘛我希望先從這個驗社活因為驗社活不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10999.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11027.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11029.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11050.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
對 保險也好 宣導也好 這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行 可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫 我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分 不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以請無論如何確保他們安全 可以嗎可以嗎 確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11058.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11070.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
謝謝林徐廷委員 接下來請李柏毅請李柏毅委員質詢待會兒等張志文質詢完之後我們再休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11083.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11105.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好 可以開始我所認識的劉世芳部長在我過去跟他共事的時候每次共事在開災變中心的會議的時候我們的劉副市長就是不見了他人在哪裡 在山區他人在做什麼 在撤離所以劉部長我請你先休息一下我先請農業部次長好 請農業部次長是 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11112.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11130.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
市長剛剛還有這個署長你們的報告裡面有寫到從煙澀湖從7月開始監測以來那我們到底農業部做了什麼除了監測那當然也有相關的這些疏菌的計畫那最後萬一有出現紅色警戒了那可能就是有一些撤離的方 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11130.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11158.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
撤離的這些方案那撤離的相關的權責的單位機關等等的其實剛才講制度講災防法都是為了要託責啊剛剛副總召講了這個災害防救法第10條規定是什麼其實他的重點是要把這個災防法第10條的規定說成是鄉鎮區公所他們的責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11159.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11186.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
一個花蓮縣政府要把這個撤離的責任推給鄉鎮市公所這個是剛剛結錄到的第一個重點第二個重點其實他沒有講到的在這個鄉鎮市公所撤離的責任之前災防法第四條災防法這一些督導管理這一些主管機關呢在直轄市是直轄市縣府而在縣市是縣市政府啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11187.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11207.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以公然的在立法院內政委員會把這個責任推給硬塞給鄉鎮市公所之外呢他也忘了讀第四條花蓮縣政府的職責是什麼但是我們今天說實在都不是要去究責是 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11209.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11225.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
是光復公所或者是村長那或者是縣政府其實我們是在討論這個我剛剛看到當是溢流的時候或者是可能有潰堤的危險的時候或者是因為這個颱風已經產生了幫我放這個颱風警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11231.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11256.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
或者是這個颱風已經產生了有可能要發布紅色警戒有可能目前是黃色警戒可能要撤離是多少人那剛剛副總召在這邊討論說你什麼時間是黃色警戒你專用災害應變中心你劉士芳部長要用最高的標準來所以花蓮縣政府是沒有責任我覺得現在都不是討論那個的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11258.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11287.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那剛剛有其他委員也講到制度的問題紅色警戒黃色警戒各應該做什麼樣的撤離或什麼樣的警報那這一個範圍到底有多大應該照制度走那我就請問各位啊我就請問剛才的委員啊災害應變中心隨時在處理各種狀況可能有委員可能沒有行政經驗沒有在災害應變中心待過 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11288.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11298.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
不知道災變中心的指揮系統匯報各地或者是所有專家的意見之後必須要做出裁判必須要做出 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11299.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11322.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
決定那決定之後各自分層分工該做什麼事情的人就去做什麼事情該找資源的人就去找資源中央該負責什麼包含國防部會支援多少人力來人就在那裡要不要指揮地方要不要指揮負責撤離的人要不要指揮這個是整個災變中心在做的事情而農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11324.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11339.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
在之前就是在做相關的這個如果是要輸菌那輸菌可能大家的意見不一樣我想要聽一下次長當時對輸菌農業部還有經濟部可能對相關的意見有什麼樣不一樣的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11340.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11362.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
謝謝委員關心因為其實對於這次的這個驗測壺其實真的是不要說台灣沒碰過在全世界應該算是一個非常特別的狀況所以我們在7月26號發現這個驗測壺形成之後其實一直在做就是做監測了解這個驗測壺有什麼變化那各種模型的演練或是各種模型的建置也是基於 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11363.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11389.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我看你的工作報告裡面也是馬步停蹄每週都有工作進度應該都要因為其實晴天有晴天狀況大雨有大雨狀況地震在花蓮有地震的狀況那東北季風來又有狀況那颱風來那更別提所以所有的模擬都是因照所有的參數變動包括每天的水位增加包括整個地形地貌的監測大家講個道理一定要這個是穩定的驗射壺跟你遇到下雨天的驗射壺還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11391.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11419.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
可能颱風要來的艷澀湖來看一下喔9月21號颱風還很遠喔已經開始成立應變中心了9月22號已經開始發布這個黃色警戒了9月22號已經紅色警戒囉來各位看一下當時的颱風還這麼預報還這麼遠而且發生災情的是在花蓮那我們也對花蓮做出了這些相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11419.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11427.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
包含到9月22號就已經發布了紅色警戒紅色警戒開始劉士芳部長可能就要請你上台了委員好剛才副總召說依照這個作業標準的規定還是黃色警戒突然到紅色警戒指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11438.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11459.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
怎麼會依據台大的這個調查報告說臨時就要變成要撤8000人所以他沒有責任我想兩個不確定的因素第一個是華家沙在花蓮山區的豪大雨這是一個另外一個就是說他那個那個壩那個對不起那個艷澀湖呢他的水位一直往上升因為他是一個集水區所以我們這兩個判斷的因子是原來這個幫農業部做這個監測的這個團隊裡面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11466.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11469.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
沒有去設定到那我認為說比較重要是雖然華家莎的那個颱風發布的範圍是以南台灣為主我覺得花蓮這個地方要從嚴來做判斷所以當我們請這個台大團隊跟原來的陽明交大團隊還有花蓮縣政府一起來討論的時候我是採取共識決所以其實是在9月21當天就在討論這件事下午3點這個會議就在討論剛副總召的資料又錯了喔他說下午3點還在還在撤離600人喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11495.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11500.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
當時我們有邀請包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所都一起參加這樣的討論然後告訴他們事情的嚴重性所以我們才會把他拉高變成要撤離1837戶也就是要撤離接近8600但是後來他們說實居人數是68006800人這個其實跟過去劉部長在 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11524.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11542.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
高雄幾個山區的這些撤離經驗是有關係的為什麼當初我們原本預計可能要撤離是8000人後來實際撤離6000多人這個就跟我們造冊的方式有關對不對那造冊要怎麼造冊地方政府造冊都是地方政府請教一下劉副市長當時的劉副市長到山區造冊怎麼造冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11545.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11561.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
第一個大概要區公所還有他們的村裡幹事包括民政 社政 警政單位三個一起去把真正住在那個地方的現住人口把它弄出來而且要常常更新譬如說兩個月或三個月或者是汛期之前要再更新一次才知道說他們有沒有住在那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11562.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11586.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
要了解那個狀況那除此之外可能社會局呢會跟民政局要知道什麼是弱勢人口譬如說需要洗腎或需要孕婦那這些就是變成要強制在颱風警報要發布之前就要強制撤離所以這些幾乎都是地方政府應該所做的這個基本的工作把名單能夠確實清楚的標示出來那因為我們在中央的部分也只能把用那個這個國科會的套圖的方式套出來說1837戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11591.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11605.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
可是每一戶裡面實居的人口跟急在人在或者急不在人在或者急在人不在真的是要地方政府才能夠明確的告訴我們這些資料所以我們現在開始其實也不能對地方政府政府有 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11608.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11626.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
過度的期待我們必須要透過很多的演練或者是透過很多可能實際的這些演習也好那去落實這些造冊的方式報告委員我想我們這次因為比較擔心是原住民的部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11627.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11646.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以園民會呢也加入我們的通知系統因為我們很怕就是剛有說的可能他們不一定聽得懂漢語那園民呢他們也在這段時間內呢一共有十幾到二十次也是通知包括村長都有收到這樣子的證明也就是說通知的部分我們都盡量通知到但是呢我們就是沒有辦法通知到每一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11647.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11676.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們只能通知到村長里長里幹事或者是鄉鎮市公所的人所以後來才知道光復鄉公所報告說他們的廣播系統壞掉趕快加上警消的系統去做撤離那當然時間上還是有一些延遲啊而且大家都知道這次沖刷下來的不是水它是水加土加沙所以它其實水加土加沙的時候它的沖刷力道是原來水的兩倍以上才會說留有大概有兩億方的這個土石在限地的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11677.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11703.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那這個造成很大的災難了我想每一個地方都有我們檢討跟精進的空間也請委員能夠了解是的謝謝部長你辛苦那原本不想講災防法那剛剛傅坤祺總召一直講災防法一直講第4條我提醒他第10條我更不想講的是災防法第49條各級政府機關如果有怠惰職守他必須要移送的我們今天不在這裡討論這個問題我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11705.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11728.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
未來不要再有這些事情發生謝謝好謝謝李博義委員接下來請張志倫委員那待會在張志倫委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是先請農業部杜次長請農業部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11734.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11760.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
委員好 杜市長好今天我們大家討論這個有關於全國堰塞湖及馬太安溪堰塞湖相關的問題那根據新聞報導這個馬太安溪堰塞湖目前的水位已經下降可是現在依然是紅色警戒那這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心的問題看似現在好像已經解決的危機為什麼還是潛藏還是紅色警戒還是潛藏致命的這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11762.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11786.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那是不是代表說我們現在第一個就是這些艷澀湖的壩體的結構的問題第一個是還沒有解決那如果下雨的話這個潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在那本席有讀了一下我們農業部的報告就從7月26艷澀湖成立了以後我們27號成立應變小組那也進行了很多的不管是拍照航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11788.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11813.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練那這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11814.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11841.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
整體的顏色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個顏色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質下游有密集人口的高風險顏色湖是不是可以請您回答好 謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的顏色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11842.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11870.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是壩體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是河道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它泄流出去第三個是河體的加高那第四個是最重要的那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11870.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11899.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹涉的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11900.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11920.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11922.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11943.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以全臺灣還有哪一邊在監測在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射物之外還有桃園新竹還有一個桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹 抱歉我講錯了是新竹嗎 新竹有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對 那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11944.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11958.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11960.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11987.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡也寫說在9月底其實在8月28日你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11988.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12017.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安溪驗射無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12018.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12047.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說那次長我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12048.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12067.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點傾書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12069.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12098.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
因為當然啦我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議喔如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害來發生所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12099.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12106.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
跟我們政府單位去做個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12107.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12128.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上要有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好 謝謝 應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們是請劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12136.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12157.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是恪盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12157.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12182.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12183.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12205.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12206.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12225.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12225.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12235.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我相信他們那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少 一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣 報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12245.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12255.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
但是呢這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數實居人數就是6,843是所以6,843人當時這個網頁上面都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12263.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12280.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
當時您所說的您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5348人不是不是不是 報告委員應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些這些有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12281.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12295.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12296.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12312.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取隨時避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12315.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12335.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這個部分大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次所罹難的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓一樓的空間而且大部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12335.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12360.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12361.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12377.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以部長我跟你請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12379.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12403.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是他們是肯認這個是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12404.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12424.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者讓第一線在協助疏散撤離的民政或者社政的人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內呢搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好好謝謝曾政務委員我們先休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12477.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12481.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
大家可以坐下 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12508.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12510.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12549.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12569.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
這張圖片是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年, |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12612.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12614.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13030.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13034.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
好我們現在繼續開會我們接下來請吳奇敏委員質詢好在位與會同仁請我們內政部部長我們請內政部委員部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13053.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13069.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
委員你好部長針對花蓮這事件我看早上很多委員大家都非常的關心那其實這個事件我看我們的國軍以及我們各社團 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13071.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13085.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
民眾大家都非常的踴躍都是來全力的搶救這個災情所以你看我們未來因為事情已經發生未來我們要怎麼來解決這個問題因為這是一個非常嚴重的天災包括在我們一些警報也好還是民力的結合包括警政的結合 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13098.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13122.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
因為有很多 你有發現就是說我們山窟以及偏遠的地方大家都是老弱婦孺都是比較多所以中間這一層人大部分都在外面工作所以可以說很多災難發生你很多地方上你又沒有辦法及時去掌控這一些人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13124.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13140.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
他們有沒有安全的撤離這都是非常重要 尤其我們台灣整個山區的居民都非常的多啊所以說這是我們未來要去檢討要怎麼說 這次我們的M社會事件對他們要怎麼建制他們的災禍重建因為對他們的家園損傷都非常嚴重所以說你未來 你說包含我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13154.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13173.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
國土署規劃我們整個國土署那邊的土地還有多少剩餘未來我們的中期的安置計畫包括我們很多不管說社宅也好要安置怎樣我們這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13174.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13177.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
受災 受災婦 要讓他們可以在那邊更加安身立命 這是最重要所以 現在 你說討論責任是歸屬地方 以及中央現在最重要 就是要如何來做搶救的工作尤其 我看到很多 包括在我的縣區 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13198.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13204.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我的選區一些志工都非常的踴躍光是我的選區到花蓮搶救差不多超過100台的遊覽車他們都是當天來回真的台灣人大家都非常有愛心所以說我們未來要怎麼結合這個山區以及偏遠的地方以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13224.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13233.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
台灣要去整個盤查還有多少存在這個湖面未來的膨體的問題這才是應急的改革的問題在這裡請保重 你看未來要怎樣去規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13238.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13242.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
感謝郭委員的關心經濟農業部的資料現時在台灣這裡有兩個驗射壺一個是現在馬太安溪一個是在新迪目前在馬太安溪這裡因為水和土壤大量都流了 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13256.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13261.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以現在是監測的部分大概是剩下1.7%所以目前為止它的坡度比較緩但是我們永遠要預測下一次會有什麼時候會發生所以在下一次的汛期之前可能我們要做一些很多這個備變的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13274.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13296.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
就我所了解經濟部的水利署他們已經針對這個這個合體的部分有2860公尺有三道不同的程序一個是夯實的土地然後再有太空包還有頂塊如果有沖刷下來的話可以擋住讓他下面的下游的這些居住的這個家屋那可以有安全上面的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13297.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13312.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
然後持續監測的部分的話那個農業部呢也跟日本的國土交通省他們有水位監視器來做處理但是比較不確定的因素就是大規模的崩塌的這個邊坡的不穩定以及什麼時候還會有另外一個颱風夾帶的大量的雨水下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13315.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13336.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這個都是在農業部有高度的監測當中同時我們也會請他們的跟包括陽明交大、成大、中興或者是台大這些教授保持聯繫怕說下一次有沒有這樣子的狀況這是目前的一個監測的狀況再來收容安置的部分確實沒有錯因為有些家屋還沒有完全清淤乾淨 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13338.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13351.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
所以現在我們所了解這個縣市政府裡面的收容安置的人數大概還有兩百三十幾位就是住在這個收容安置所或是旅宿這是行政院或花蓮縣政府所提供的一個暫時的地方那現在有幾個就是剛剛那個委員所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13357.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13373.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
現在這麼多土砂要遭遇了目前為止這個行政院在台塘那附近大概有備變了兩塊到三塊這個土石堆置的地方但是仍然不夠那現在大面積需要處理的大概是落在農業部他們農田上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13374.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13381.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
覆蓋的這個土石量大概有600萬方左右非常的多那所以呢現在農業部他們正在想辦法看怎麼樣幫農民解決未來如果農田要做其他的怎麼樣的復育工作的話那我們就尊重農業部來幫忙處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13390.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13396.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那再來現在仍然有一部分是環境部在主導在那個市區裡面比較多大概就是所謂的親溝側溝親溝有些是跟他們的這個劃分池啊或者是其他的下水道是連在一起的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13406.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13427.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那目前我所知道他們這個清溝的這個速度啦他們預計大概30公里現在清溝的速度大概是20公里所以那個紀連城政務委員下令對不起希望在10月18號的時候清溝可以完成這個第一部分的任務讓很多人可以回去原來的家園做比較更正常的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13428.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13435.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那在昨天呢行政院的一站式的服務呢針對這個1837戶已經有1518戶完成申請登記那每一個修繕家園的這個進度大概可以獲得包括震災基金會總共有35萬元的部分讓他們回去可以清掃自己的家屋讓自己的家屋呢可以好好的再回復正常的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13452.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13468.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那如果對於非常嚴重也就是我們大家所知道的所謂的佛祖階那一代總共有89戶那89戶呢我上次在立法院院會啊跟院長在回應這個委員的質詢的時候有說要他們挨家挨戶去查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13469.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13477.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
他們有沒有必須要異地重建或者是原地重建那我們現在有一些資料已經出來如果他需要原地重建或異地重建的話我們都會來協調跟幫忙那如果需要異地重建目前在這個國土署 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13485.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13498.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所找到的地點大概是在台塘靠近他們大晉國小那一帶大概是五空井左右但是異地重建不一定是所謂的遷村因為遷村是永遠的你可能遷村的時候就要放棄原來的你已經被這個沖毀的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13502.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13522.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那如果說他是用中繼屋的方式來要求的話目前我手頭上的資料有這個中介屋中繼屋需求的人數大概是40戶左右但是還要再進一步溝通因為這個都是每一天在與時漸進在處理當中這是以上我們所知道先跟委員報告一下目前的一個進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13522.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13527.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝 我覺得保證我們這次這個災害我們中央也全部都動起來所以我也說在明天 我也看到保證市場都去關心所以我們說剛才這個情形 你說堆積場 魚餘太過多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13541.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13545.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以說因爲太過多了,你對自廠一定要把他經過就好因爲我看很多,你用人工在那裡耕耕,那個金錢就沒那麼多那怎麼說呢?我們現在都要靠在種機械嘛在種機械的氣質入去,才有辦法改革經濟的問題,速度才會快你說一般它的住宅裡面,那當然那個種機械都沒辦法進去都要靠人工嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13567.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13569.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
所以說你要結合現在全國在志工都非常踴躍去幫忙要怎麼來結合每一次讓他們建立他們未來他們的經濟處 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13580.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13583.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
因為這都是非常費時的問題所以我們為大家說要去討論這個問題這可以徹底改觀你說它的中繼屋中繼屋這個速度一定要快你如果說政府部門為大家說要再討論變略的預算也可以討論給民間不管慈濟啊 紅十字會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13601.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13607.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
他們的速度也都是很快我們現在也不分了就是要替我們的災民要怎麼來解決還有一點你說這些種機械我看他們入境我本身這裡的資料有2500多台其實我們每一邊的災害都是在種機械他們來在協助所以說未來他們種機械的問題也希望說保證可以替他們解決他們的問題就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13629.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13635.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
停在種機械的問題都長久以來都沒辦法去解決這也是他們透露的心聲所以說這點也拜託補充來想辦法 到該關好 感謝委員 我跟委員報告我們這裡有資料的啦我剛才跟縣主席會計呢是出動3071啦山貓的話是1475啦我要跟委員報告就是說這裡的志工朋友非常感恩啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13654.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13660.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
因為他們可以遊樂的地方都在處理但是如果是累積這麼多土石很多古老洞的部分大家都是國軍或是慈濟因為慈濟他們動員五千多人那國軍的話動員更多他們都把我們的去暫時堆置的地方所以其實是分工啦只不過國軍的分工他們都在拔煤 在做工因為歷史來說我們這裡的產殖超人把那些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13677.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13694.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
把他推到那個道路上面但是第二天道路又乾淨了為什麼 因為半夜的時候國軍已經出動很多人力跟機具把他先運走所以一方面都到底在處理這方面就是說公家跟樹林的產殖超人都有互相的分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13695.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13698.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以每次看到我們都感謝產殖超人他們能夠到現場去我最了解的就是包括我們的NCDR 還是包括台鐵光復車站家他們每天都會統計人次 人次啦 因為沒辦法人嘛大概到現主席位置大概是50萬人次啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13713.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13740.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
50萬人次真的是非常的多而且我也看到一個非常正面的部分就是說這些產值超人如果有碰到受災戶他們還會跟受災戶聊天這也是一種療癒的過程我想這個是對台灣來講都是一個非常正向的力量那國外媒體也有報導那另外就是說如果這個產值超人慢慢減少救災部分的話現在我們還有一個部分就是替代役 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13740.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13757.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
備役替代役我們請花蓮縣政府發動全台灣第一次的備役替代役的動員大概會有240人次那這個部分呢在下一次要處理緊急疏散撤離的兵棋演練或者是說到人家家屋裡面去再協助比較有勞譬如說家裡如果有一些人行動不方便還要到廟室的部分我想備役替代役同樣都是花蓮人 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13765.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13790.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
應該會協助的機會比較大那就不會說讓現在也是非常忙的包括縣政府或是鄉鎮公所仍然非常忙碌在處理一些其他的事所以我們到目前為止行政院的一站式的服務呢包括新聞節目沒在啦健保卡也沒在我們就馬上幫他做處理那這一方面呢大概就是慢慢慢慢可以讓他恢復正常的生活所以這是我們目前所做的這個部分當然我們到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13792.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13802.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
中央的災害應變中心跟花蓮縣政府還是一級警戒為什麼 因為這裡面的志工人流太多了冰凶時這個地方花蓮車頭這裡 光復車頭這裡一天只有八百人 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13807.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13828.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
現在每天早上一萬人兩萬人三萬人如果有下大雨或是有地震因為前上個禮拜也有三次到四次以上的地震警報那這個呢也必須要納入疏散撤離的範圍那所以這就是我們目前為止仍然維持一級警戒裡面四個重要因素裡面的第四個非常重要的好謝謝謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13830.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13844.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我說這次這個災害 我們的中央部會大家都是通力合作 合作在我們所在的災民這點分析非常輕盈所以也感謝我們所有的志工和國賓在這裡再次感謝 謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13850.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13878.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
好 謝謝吳啟明委員那我們中午不休息繼續開會那也跟委員會報告在我們林德福委員詢答完之後我們會處理臨時提案那我們現在請林德福委員謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請內政部這個劉部長請劉部長還有這個警政署不是那個消防署消署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13879.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13886.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
委員好 農業部啊這個杜次長請以上三位那個部長你可以在中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13895.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13914.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
上主席台那個我請問因為根據10月9號行政院災害防救辦公室災害復原的情形報告花蓮光戶家園家戶這個家屋內清一差不多百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13915.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13923.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
主要是道路清淤98%學校已經陸陸續續都復課然後根據過往的氣象資料2022、2023以及2024年花蓮10月累計降雨分別為878毫米296.5毫米以及572.5毫米是多雨的季節那 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13943.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13961.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
馬太安西亞煙澀湖潰壩危機仍然沒有解除還未解除那請問在場你們三位誰可以回答如果再遇到大雨花蓮寬戶鄉累積的雨量這個達到多少毫米就會這個啟動這個撤離的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13970.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13985.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
是 謝謝報告委員 依現在的狀況我們調整了如果在24小時之內連續雨量達到200毫米的是會啟動紅色警戒那是否有預留一些足夠撤離作業的時間以利民眾能夠疏散 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13985.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14011.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我想這也就是為什麼我們現在最優先要在處理的因為紅色警戒有四個要件第一個是壩體的部分有沒有穩定第二個是在河道的其餘部分有沒有做深溝第三個是河體有沒有加高這三項都有在做那最重要的最重要就是現在的撤離計劃因為現在在花蓮當地其實除了當地的居民之外有很多志工有很多中央各部會在進駐在那邊協助的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14013.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14038.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所以撤離計畫是我們現階段要儘速來完成的其實這一次這個整個潰壩這個潰堤這麼嚴重其實主要就是當初你們當然說有一些這個事前有去做一些測試上面了解那實際上引流工作都沒有做而且這個多久前 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14040.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14057 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我們立法院很多委員就擔心這個事務而且那時候你們就是在搞大惡霸所以說根本就沒有心在這個地方你要是當初有引流我相信不會發生這麼嚴重因為你有引流 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14058.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14075.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
整個水下陷沒有達到那個程度它就不會造成整個淹涉湖的一個潰壩這是很嚴重的問題委員他也提到了其實這次並不是因為第一個監測的結果當然有很多的預估的模型 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14075.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14097.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
你們那個部長說沒有問題啊在當下當下的狀況那這次其實是因為畫家沙颱風帶來大量的雨量然後造成特別是堰塞湖區依照中央氣象署的資料會是會有大量的雨水所以這次下來就不是一般預估的雨量而是有大量的對啊那你平常本來這個就是你要是有引流出去就不會這麼嚴重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14099.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14116.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
引流還是有在做堤防有在做但是這次因為颱風大量雨水帶下來的狀況確實是天上帶下來的因為齁災後當然政府資源有限民間民力無窮許多民間力量的匯聚支持災民渡過難關對於投入花蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14117.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14138.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
救災的官兵包括醫護、志工我想本席也是真的非常的感謝跟敬佩然而中央災害應變中心對於花蓮整個災區的管理志工的安排調度保險在災難發生後沒有立刻來啟動導致謠言四起 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14142.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14153.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那破壞整個救災團隊讓人感到遺憾希望內政部未來要一併檢討讓這些救災志工有安全的保障 劉部長你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14155.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14178.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
報告委員其實我們這兩天已經有跟金管會還有財政部已經針對這個志工啊做這個QR code少QR code的時候就有這個平安險的一個保障已經把它列進去這兩天都列進去了其實更令人不捨的是熱心的救災民眾失去了生命挖土機超人寧紅生救災感染 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14179.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14206.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
他應該是敗血症來身亡那本席是希望內政部積極來研究啟動入中獵池的這個程序以告慰家屬報告委員因為林鴻升先生我們當然非常不捨但是中獵池有中獵池現在的一個入室的部分那我們請衛福部啊那能不能列入表揚那因為志工服務法是衛福部是不是請次長跟您回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14209.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14228.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
有關這個部分我們會再跟行政院這邊來申請看看我認為這個應該全國的人民都不會反對這麼熱心的一個志工發生這種狀況政府沒有拿出同理心你說叫這些來做志工的人請何以堪 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14230.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14242.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
我認為該做則做你不要說這個一定要怎麼樣規定沒有那個百分之百的規定啦對不對我們這是民意啊你去問10個有9個9都贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14244.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14272.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
好不好要好好做那個花蓮馬太安溪煙澀湖潰壩造成嚴重的災情內政部前部長李鴻元指出台灣當前面臨的都是複合式的災害那已經非單一部會能夠處理呼籲政府要修改災害防救法來設置專責的單位來成立這個防災總署因為這次我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14274.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14302.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
等於是好幾個單位而且沒有統籌講實在話啦你像那個公兵他們有那麼多的機具那麼多的人員沒有發揮到充分來運用他們災害發生的時候能夠做的應該全力都做那是我要成立這個防災總署統一救災的權責此一概念過去在立法院其實也 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14303.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14318.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
也有討論過啦那花蓮光復鄉災情預警應變及這個救災未來的檢討究責本席請問劉部長你以消防署的看法是不是支持這個防災總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14323.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14337.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
來取代整個中央這個災害應變中心我認為要審慎評估報告委員我剛在回覆其他委員是有提到第一個我們現在消防的這個災害防救體系它是一個因災因而起的那這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14338.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14347.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
前面的有些預警必須要很多專業來幫忙比如說氣象署他在發布地震或是發布颱風的部分那沒辦法由災防總署來幫忙還有譬如說堰塞湖的監測農業部在幫忙或者是說其他的大型災害或者是生物園的災害必須要衛福部來處理那如果你成立災防總署的部分的話呢他是在應變的時候能不能快速整合所有這方面的資訊然後做出判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14366.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14387.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
然後減少生命財產的損失那這一部分呢其實在歷次的災害應變從以前的這個921開始他就一直在演變當中那我們也一直在精進那這一部分呢包括中央跟地方都有精進討論的空間我想我們都不排除任何可能因為你不要像這一次一樣啦多頭馬車其實外界都有這樣的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14392.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14415.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
對不對那些志工到底要去給哪一個單位來報到他們要做哪裡對不對你等於是沒有一個統籌嘛那你災害發生的時候就是第一時間最重要因為像台灣地小人籌容易受到一些極端氣候的影響那這個山坡地的災害類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14418.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14432.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個將轉變為多元而且災害的規模將遠超過過去歷史的事件面對未來未知的災害可能本席是希望農業部要結合AI大數據的計算以大數據的分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14433.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14448.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
來建立整個災害潛勢圖以疏散避難場所規劃之研究未來會如何與內政部國土署經濟部地礦中心合作以避免類似花蓮關乎這種慘劇再次發生那個次長你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14453.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14473.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
是謝謝委員指教應該就是要這樣把所有的資源統合起來一起來就防災救災的事情剛剛其實部長講的我意思就是說你要是這個防災總署就是要統籌嘛你災難發生的時候你沒有統籌各司其職每一個單位想法看法都不一樣然後變成多頭馬車所以說變成這種狀況全國人民都看在眼裡啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14480.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14493.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那其實這個應該本來政府我是希望說那個部長你提出這些看法意見你給立法院一份資料每個委員都都一份資料認為未來應該要怎麼做 游部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14495.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14520.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
報告委員我想我不是天才但是我會把各方的意見把它收整起來提供給我們的立委來參考包括如果有修法精進的方案的話我們也必須要研議因為它確實牽涉到不只是各部會恐怕公司力協商因為很多人都提到這次的志工的加入以前志工的部分大致上都沒有像這次這麼多人的狀況之下就是災害太嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14524.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14545.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
然後再來就是中央跟地方上面的分工是不是需要再明確那我覺得比較重要就是說我們還是要在各種不同的場合裡面繼續提供給大家危機意識是非常重要你如果沒有準備的話他的危機沒有危機意識的話那當然造成了人命傷亡損失就是比較不是我們能夠預估的範圍之內我希望好好的檢討啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14547.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14566.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
就針對未來不要讓災害像這一次變成多頭馬車那其實這些志工真的他們很有愛心那站在政府的角度你應該就是好好的怎麼來檢討以後該怎麼做以最好的方式來做是人民期待的啦謝謝好謝謝林德福委員那我們現在來處理臨時提案總共有四案請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14582.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14604.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
臨時提案一本二零二五年九月二十三日花蓮縣馬太安溪發生煙色湖溢流洪水衝破光復鄉市區體防之情勢造成花蓮縣光復鄉萬榮鄉鳳林鄉重大災情無論第一時間之救災搶災抑或災後之重建出政府及外界協助災民亦有自救自救之需求為使受災民眾及其親屬能於災害發生後進行家園重建復原 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14605.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14624.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
請行政院嚴議訂定災後復原假期相關配套措施提案人委員蘇巧慧等六人臨時提案二本二零二五年九月二十三日花蓮縣馬太安西發深淹澀湖一流洪水衝破光復鄉市區提防之情勢造成人民傷亡因災害及時告警機制不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14624.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14641.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
致使部分民眾未能於洪水來襲時及時避難緊急疏散警報之內容樣式方法及其發布時機顯有在精進之空間請行政院研議精進緊急疏散警報相關機制必利緊急疏散作業之進行提案人委員蘇巧慧等六人 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14642.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14662.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
平時提案三 本二零二五年九月花蓮馬灘西堰澀湖溢流災害大量泥流灌進下游光復鄉市區造成當地民眾財產家園及生活重大損失為協助重建家園全國熱心民眾自主遠赴光復鄉協助清淤救災遺憾的是救災志工林宏森先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14662.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14681.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
不幸因傷口感染導致敗血症離世感佩其救災心切奮不顧身異形可風典型足事原件請內政部會同衛生福利部依相關法令陳請總統包揚並研議入室中列詞以供國人驚世提案人委員蘇巧慧等六人臨時提案四 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14682.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14703.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
鉴于重大灾害或突发事件发生时现行灾害警讯传播系统存在传播速度分级延宕非单一标准语文限制及触及范围不足等结构性缺陷严重影响新住民外籍人士观光客等多元族群的生命安全亦不符现代化国家治理对紧急风险沟通之效率要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14703.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14717.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
原建請行政院邀請邀集相關部會於一個月內研議一將細胞廣播提升為所有重大災害緊急事故強制性無差別警訊通報手段二建立中央層級之標準化多餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14719.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14739.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
風險溝通模板至少涵蓋我國新住民主要來源國語言及通用語言如英語日語等並強制要求訊息內容納入地理位置風險性質及明確應變指令並將研議成果與具體實施進度向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐欣盈等四人宣讀完畢好我們現在第一案到第三案大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14746.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14752.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那麼一件的話我們第一案第四案照案通過那接下來我們繼續開會我們請徐欣穎委員發言謝謝主席我們內政部長請先坐著休息本席請這個農業部農業部次長還有我們經濟部水利署副署長請農業部經濟部水利署 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14777.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14803.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
委員好我們這一次艷澀湖的這個災害我想這是國人覺得非常痛心的那我想這個醫療上預防勝於治療我相信所有的災害也是我想部長跟署長應該也都認同那這個很多人在說所以我要特別的就農業部跟經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14805.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14824.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
来请教过往艳色湖的处置案例过往艳色湖的处置案例通常艳色湖形成一个多月就处置完毕了花莲的艳色湖是7月形成发生灾害的时候已经是9月23号溃堤 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14827.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14844.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
没有看到任何的疏俊工程或者是这中间到底是判断错误还是怎么样的一个我想这个部分我们非常需要知道是政府的螺丝松了该做没有做所以一直延宕延宕到 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14845.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14860.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
9月刚好来一个台风结果产生这个问题还是怎么样首先我想先请农业部次长非常谢谢委员关心因为其实在艳色湖9月26号我们确认艳色湖形成之后7月吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14861.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14876.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
7月26確認行程之後其實相關的監測相關的應處其實都緊鑼密鼓在說因為就是因為覺得這件事要嚴正以待兩個狀況第一個是因為那個壺體確實很大所以其實這當中也有人在講說有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14877.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14895.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
就把那个验尸物把它这个看能不能把它消灭掉那其实也请了包括国防部也包括很多水利工程单位的人帮我们想想看有没有办法把那个霸体看能不能把它解体或让水流掉那这样至少对下游来讲就是不会有那么大的风险 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14896.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14921.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
这个是什么时候什么时候的我们从7月26号形成之后就开始密集找专家那在8月我有看到你们报告里面的时间序列那有考虑过要么用这个要不要国防部来爆破那其实也不可行因为旁边对这个考量然后决定不要用这个方法是在什么时候这是什么时间点已经到8月了嘛不好意思委员我来说明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14922.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14946.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
因為我看到你們就是整個七月二十六行程到十幾號就已經開始在評估我說明一下因為我時間有限你講到什麼我剛剛次長說的還有您說的到八月十幾號因為我看到你們寫的時間序列七月二十六到八月三號你們就整個堰塞湖的量體分析災害風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14947.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14964.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
评估初步的评估还有建立预警机制可是我看到8月11号的时候特别提出了一个紧急调查报告为什么是有一个紧急调查报告那一天这个调查报告到底他紧急什么他告诉了什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14964.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14986.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
然後剛剛您又講國防部這邊這個可能要爆破可能評估也是不好這也是8月10幾號那時候到底我們現在想了解就是說我們政府的評估或者是我們該做的到底有沒有實際的做8月11號那時候就是一個比較完整的全貌的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14986.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15009.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那就是輪廓那那個的結論是什麼那個的結論對堰塞湖它的應該如何處置它就是針對那整個量體還有針對未來可能會形成的水量還有那個壩體的土方它有一個更清楚的方法結論是什麼因為我看過去我們從1999年開始全台灣各地堰塞湖的形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15010.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15039.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我们发现他都在10天到两周之内一定会有一个评估而且他这个会做出处置就是后续我们该怎么做是要引流还是要建立什么还是在下游我们的这个提防各方面那我们这一次花莲的艳色湖既然7月26号形成那在8到了8月10号差不多你们也两周了你们那一 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15040.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15053.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那时候的决议到底如何处置这个艳色那个处置方式其实是一直都有持续在评估但是那边最大的问题你一直评估评估你总要有一个时间点你要做出一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15055.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15076.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
决定说你要怎么处置包括刚刚次长说的我要不要用爆破还是什么就是不行那个地方没有办法用爆破那你们那一次的决议那这个验射壶怎么样持续观察而已吗没有危险性吗这个评估这个我们一次说没有其他的工程方式我们还会有第二次看还可不可以找其他专家来评估有没有其他的工程方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15076.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15094.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
所以一開始是爆破後來又有人提出說引流那或是說有人說這個可不可以有這個機具上去把那個堤方挖一個缺口其實這些不同的方式它不是在一次會議裡面那你剛說的第二個爆破沒做第二個引流不是沒做是沒辦法做因為它會引發更大的崩塌讓這個沒辦法做那你剛說的引流可以做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15100.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15129.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
引流可以做但是引流也许可以做但是他必须要装4条1米的这个不锈钢管而且每一条要在2.5公里以上要装4条那那个验射物他是在一个深山的山谷他没有办法在那么短的时间内去安装这个事情而且现场持续在崩塌没有工作人员能够保障他们的生命安全在那样的环境下面所以现场持续崩塌那这一条路也不能走那你们接着没有路啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15131.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15154.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我是说这个方案不能进行那你们没有第三个方案吗有啊第三个方案是什么那是不是可以上去把它的所谓的坝去把它稍微挖一个缺口出来或者挖低一点但是这个方式同样也是因为你要开一条路上去至少要三个月以上而且那个时间是在迅起也没办法做这个事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15155.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15174.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
所以那个地方最主要所以你提你讲了三个想出来都是不可行的那最后到底OK 平估出来的那最后呢最后就是所以就是在中下游要加强输菌中下游加强输菌你们什么时候开始做你们什么时候有开始做 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15175.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15202.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
應該是八月中那時候就邀集了包含水利署包含了花蓮縣政府還有我們自己那時候就已經開始去做了那時候也希望說至少希望能夠在未來即使在沒有颱風的情況下它在自然溢流之前可以讓中下游河道增加水的能量哪一天決定要疏浚而且疏浚的期程是那一天的決議疏浚的期程是怎麼樣應該是八月十六號的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15203.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15216.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
好8月16號決定要輸菌然後預計多久要輸菌完成在9月底前要完成60萬噸的輸菌有三個9月底前對然後也包含河岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15216.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15245.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
有一些之前堤防的缺口什麼那些要把它補強堤防缺口是水利署嗎還是是你們應該是水利署因為發生了之後當地的民眾講說破堤點只差100公尺那舊堤防跟新堤防它的一個缺口一直沒有補對這塊可能要請副署長我再重申那個不是叫缺口那個是開口堤 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15248.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15275.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個這個堤防這個設計方式是全世界都有案例日本就叫霞堤也就是它的保護標準都到設計保護標準那這一次自災不是只有那邊有溢出去而且是整個在這個它應該是上面整個潰堤吧對 大流量下降就像我們的設計標準才2000出頭的一個洪峰流量它下來是88004倍的洪峰流量一個輕量級要跟重量級去打 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15276.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15300.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
所以沿路有2800公尺的堤防都破了所以峽堤當然這個部分開口堤是溢出去沒錯但是它是整個整個防線的潰瓣並不是那個OK好那我了解那我還是請次長還有剛剛這一位是不是我們林業林業自然署的是嗎是林署長那所以呢所以這個艷澀湖我們就眼睜睜看著它 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15302.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15323.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
不是眼睜睜我們就是剛剛講所有的你們所有的會議決策會議記錄是不是在會後可以提供給沒有問題本辦公室那這樣看來等於提早大概一個多月不到兩個月驗社服行程到發生災害我們沒有辦法有效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15324.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15350.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
所以就是著重在中下游的減災方案如同我剛跟您報告的那另外還有一個就是說必要的時候必須要疏散那如果本席問一個假設性問題因為你們說在9月底以前要整個完成下游的整個的數據就是60萬噸的清水那如果這次風災它是10月才來是不是不會造成這個我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15351.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15374.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
災害可能會減輕一點但是因為這次的災害如同剛剛水利署的副署長也說明了那個堤防它沒有辦法承受這麼大量所以確實是所以最重要還是上面整個潰堤下來才造成這麼大的災害對 那個當然是源頭那我們以現代科技整個工程各方面真的都沒辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15376.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15392.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
在很短的時間內只有不到兩個月的時間內剛剛所講的工程手段是沒有辦法沒有沒有 我們那時候並不知道9月20幾號會有風災不是我的意思說你們那時候在面對這個艷澀湖的時候我們到底有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15393.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15420.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
能够有正确的处置以及是不是真正及时的处置这是我们所有的疑虑在两个月内确实没有办法用工程的手段没有两个月内而是形成之后你不知道九月底会有风灾我们那时候预估十月会一流那时候已经有估计十月会一流对有估计在十月中前后这个我们都有公开资讯我们设了一个网站每天都对外公开 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15420.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15443.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
因為我有看你們後來整個有監測它的整個水位各方面8月中就開始把這些資訊完全上網公開任何人都可以查得到OK 謝謝本席不好意思最後再借用我請部長內政部長我們很快的要詢問一下就是這整個如果真的災害來的時候細胞廣播觸發門檻與時點 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15449.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15469.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這個細胞廣播系統是不是有納入這一次整個所謂的這個驗射壺警戒監測及測離演練方案六的強制條件還有包含細胞檢訊是由農業部來負責我們當然把它列進去所以不是內政部因為他們有一定的條件降雨量或者是說那不好意思農業部那請農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15477.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15505.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
就是我刚刚问的这整个细胞广播系统是不是有纳入你们的这个整个那个方案的强制条件有因为其实我们不只纳入而且我们还做了演练确保在那有多语吗包含原住民原住民语整个防灾教材是文字细胞广播是用文字对那有关那广播的部分防灾 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15505.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15526.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
整個防災教材什麼時候可以全覆蓋還有能夠年年更新細胞廣播的部分其實相對含概率是精確的但是在當地的廣播的部分其實特別是在原鄉的一些村鎮其實村長里長他們都會使用當地的語言去做宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15528.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15550.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
做說明最後就是剛剛我們說的這個堰塞湖警戒監測及撤離和演練方案他從101年修訂後就沒有再更新但是我們現在一直這種極端氣候我們發現我們也掌控不了天象各方面所以感覺是脫節了所以這一個部分是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15551.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15576.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
什麼時候行政院可以提出這是農業部還是內政部能夠提出新的方案這個部分我們會再來做檢討因為特別包括這次在花蓮地區有很多包括各機關還有花蓮縣府還有很多志工在裡面的這個狀況其實我想將來在整個不管是書篆演練的這些應該都要納進來包含在101年的時候可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15576.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15585.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
也沒有所謂的AI還有無人機 衛星等等新興的技術它的嘗試的條件和資料可能要共享所以這一塊我們希望來加強有備無患好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15604.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15621.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
好我們接下來請黃建斌召委質詢謝謝主席主席我們有請內政部的部長請部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15623.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15638.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
部長這次花蓮馬灘溪驗射物的潰壩事件造成19人的死亡我想這對全體國人都是一個非常沉重的傷痛在這邊我們也感謝所有第一線救災的人員跟我們的志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15639.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15658.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
目前我們這個救災跟重建的進度都還在持續的進行當中但是我們想事發至今已經將近了20天許多國人心中還是充滿了許多的疑問就是說究竟到底是為什麼會造成今天這麼嚴重的災害到底在各項的緩解當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15659.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15680.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
我們出了什麼樣的問題那因此本席今天會安排今天的議程就是希望各部會能夠一起在我們立法院清楚的跟我們國人來報告我想只有釐清問題才能夠找到改善的方法我想說我們就是希望作為未來我們政府防災的一些寶貴的經驗我們能夠強化我們全災害應變的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15681.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15699.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
我想這個才是符合賴總統所說的這個韌性社會那我想針對這一次堰塞湖潰壩事件本席認為我們必須從源頭堰塞湖的監測處理開始來討論再來就是我們災害的預警這個通報然後疏散的機制最後是我們災禍復原重建 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15701.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15715.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
這就是為什麼本期這次將這次的主題專報的主題分為這幾項我們就是不希望我們只顧著去究責某一個特定的環節甚至是某一個單位某一個機關然後最後變成一場卸責大會面對災害防災絕對勝於救災 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15720.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15736.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那我想能夠提早的發現潛在的災害的風險來做好妥善這個防災的規劃盡力把災害降到最低我相信這筆輸了我們救災的補充在這方面的借金又比較重要了我想接下來我想要請農業部市長市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15744.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15768.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
市長根據我們農業部的報告農業部針對這次驗射虎的事件有列出的時間軸就從7月底開始確認有驗射虎的存在然後接下來就是進行多次的會議還有災害風險評估但是從這一次的經驗我們明顯的發現到計劃絕對趕不上變化尤其是在現在的極端氣候之下我們東部地區又常發生這個地震頻繁 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15769.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15797.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
一次大一次地震或是一場大雨就可能把原本大家規劃好評估好的事情全部都推翻那加上這次菸涉湖涉及到的這個阻亂機關不只是單一個單位我們中央必須要痛定思痛來強化各單位之間的聯繫我們資訊的共享還有通報機制我相信呃市長也非常了解這個過程掌聲的問題哦那因此真本席提出兩點的建議第一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15798.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15825.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
強化跨部會的這個驗射壺潛勢監測平台那本席知道我們農業部目前一個叫國有林防災應變及驗射壺監測系統但實際上我們去網路上看我們去網站上看它比較像是會診各單位的這個會議紀錄的一個地方那農業部應該要更整個更多的跨部會的這個即時的資訊包括我們農業部的這個邊波的穩定系統然後航車的圖像還有水利署的水利署這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15827.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15851.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
河川監測資訊等等我們可以透過我們這個AI影像來判讀監測我們地形的變化然後提前來辨識我們高風險這個地段讓不管是我們中央也好地方政府也好甚至我們當地的民眾都可以一目了然然後上這個平台能夠有效的即刻掌握到我們資訊那第二個 第二點的建議就是我們社會中央解釋應用社會風險地圖應變的SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15854.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15870.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
目前我們之內有土石流還有河川做潛勢風險的這個地圖以及分級警戒應變機制那但針對我們這次驗射虎這樣子複合性的這些災害未來應該有更明確更專屬的風險地圖以及不同的風險應變機制才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15872.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15893.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那這當中我們涉及到的這個資訊整合的管道絕對不會是單一個地方政府他有能力做到那我們最後一定要扛起責任這真的要跨部會來一起來合作那針對菸攝乎的這個事件見解風險之後我們在每一次的地震或風災過後我們就要針對高風險地區再做一次的評估再做一次的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15894.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15908.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那避免未來的事情將會發生像各位也應該很清楚知道0403之後整個東部的狀況他越來越難漲我所以他即使去變更這個是很重要的讓你能夠了解到那後一屆風太大風水大 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15909.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15927.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
或是它是在台東發現我們該怎麼辦其實台東的鄉親也很擔心我們在這次下鄉的時候每個都在講說我們在客水很高的會不會沖一百大家都很擔心會發生一樣的事情因為我相信這件事情對國人都有產生特別是東部的民眾產生很大很大的陰影 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15928.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15948.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那我想這邊再請市長來回應好非常謝謝召委兩個提醒也是提問我想就像您所說的其實在整個氣候變遷加劇的狀況之下所有的災害其實都會是複合性的而且不是單一點的那我們現在要做的其實就是把這些資訊第一個要整合起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15948.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15975.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
所以剛剛提到的不管是這個潛勢區的監測平台不是只有農業部也包括經濟部甚至包括我們的NCDR科技防災中心還甚至我們科技國科會還有各個專家其實這是一個團隊那也許有人手上有這部分資料有人有那部分資料一定要統合起來看才是一個完整的這個風險地圖而且這個一定要隨時做所以我想我們不管是衛星資料航拍資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15976.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15997.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
無人機資料或是甚至最近我們也找了經濟部地礦中心他們有長期的監測資料包括礦產整個的變形我想這些資料都統合起來才是我們將來在防災也好有更好的準備那老實講真的不敢講說人定會勝天因為在什麼狀況之下我們真的不知道我們只能希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15999.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16015.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
我們希望有更好的準備所以剛剛提到的不管是在平台也好在救災的SOP也好應處的準則或甚至在演練我想這個必須在一次又一次的操作中讓大家知道說其實要有準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16016.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16039.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
那其實我們能夠有更好的結果如果我們大家能夠一起把這件事情再做得更完善一點不管手冊也好SOP也好更精準的預先溝通或者是能夠提早做準備寧可及早疏散就是預防性的疏散我們也不願意見到有任何一個人的損失我想這次應該在一次一次當中我們要學習到 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16039.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16059.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
市長我們希望能夠藉由這件事情之後發現到整個未來應應整個極端氣候我們該怎麼去面對特別是跨國的合作然後跟地方政府的合作我們不希望這樣的憾事再次發生那特別也都知道像這是像邊鄉地區他原本就是在資源缺乏然後人口老化的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16060.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16079.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
他們根本沒有能力根本沒有能力應付這麼大的災害那接下來我想要請我們這個請教這個內政部的部長保定這針對這次驗射虎這個災害事件內政部作為災害防救中央主管單位我想他絕對有必要的責任針對災害發生後 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16081.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16094.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
各個環節進行來全面性的檢討我想不管是中央或地方都一樣我們就是好好的釐清問題才能夠解決問題啦齁那同樣本縣會提出兩個建議第一個就是說針對目前的這個災害防救法 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16094.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16122.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
有一些關於撤離的規範過於簡化尤其是針對這個強制撤離居民這一項就缺乏明確的相對應的這個強制手段其實是對於地方政府也特別是偏鄉你要在短時間撤離千人真的是一件非常困難的事情本席從村幹事開始然後到地方的民意代表然後到鄉鎮長我們在側村遇到的情況都是很難去處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16123.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16139.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那因此對於相對這個相關策略方式分工以法律賦予政府機關強制力這個如何以確保生命安全為優先然後給予更明確的這個規範我想在這個法規上我們應該要進行來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16141.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16159.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
那第二件事就是在強化驗社會這個防災的宣導還有演練我想這一次的驗社會造成這個大規模的災害可以說是少有這個先例可循那又涉及到剛剛提到跨部會的這個資訊的整合那我想必須要由中央機關來組織輔導我們地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16161.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16185.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
縣市政府甚至直接輔導高風險地區的鄉鎮市公所進行這個縣市社會的防災宣導還有應變的這個機制擬定我們才可以從上到下更具體的這個強化防災韌性還有我們民眾的這防災的意識那以上這兩個建議我確實不一定我們也好好來研議一下但不是再次強調我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16186.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16205.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那絕對不是去歸咎哪一個特定的單位或是個人或是要釐清問題才能夠解決問題那避免造成我們這樣子的傷害那以上就是幾個建議也請所剛剛提到兩個單位能夠好好的演繹那以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16226.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16228.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
接下來我們請黃國昌委員謝謝主席 有請內政部部長內政部部長委員好部長好 延續上一次諮詢的主題就是蠟總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16249.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16272.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
針對有關於社會住宅的推動上一次在內政委員會我有請教過一次因為就具體上面來講就是百萬戶怎麼計算這件事情我上次質詢有說過我就不要再重複現在大家關注的焦點在於賴總統所提出來的政見跟施政的計畫其中興建社會住宅要有13萬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16274.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16299.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
但非常多的NGO還有年輕人大家都在關心一件事情最近13萬戶的社會住宅目前他們所得到的資訊因為這個是NGO的朋友跟一些年輕人他們來反映他們掌握到的資訊是不是客觀真實如果有不對的地方等一下也請部長一併釐清他們目前所掌握到的資訊是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16300.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16312.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
內政部針對有關於興建社會住宅所提出來的一個計畫後來行政院不願意去核定然後卡在行政院事情是不是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16314.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16339.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
報告委員應該是說行政院對於我們所提的三個方案就是直接興建社會住宅包租貸款還有所謂的租金補貼他們認為租金補貼啊算不算是屬於社會住宅的一種當然是啊後來我們解釋過他願意接受部長您看一下所以才會核定我講話都很具體的啦包租貸款多少興建多少租屋補貼多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16340.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16361.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
當初賴總統講得很清楚所以三個數字我是個別列的現在表格上面部長有看到嗎右手邊賴清德預計達成戶數包租貸款17萬戶新建13萬戶租金補貼10萬戶這個是賴總統當初所提出來的證件那個表格我整理得蠻清楚部長這樣看應該可以掌握啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16362.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16383.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
現在大家關心的事情是說包租代管也好租金補貼也好現在我今天延續著上一次質詢的主題大家關心的是新建社會住宅的部分新建社會住宅的部分大家看到的是說目前你們新建社會住宅的計畫卡在行政院到目前為止沒有核定是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16384.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16408.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
不是我剛跟您報告過了就是說這三個方案裡面行政院只有對於這個租金補貼的定義會不會像我們所述的所以後來行政院還是以百萬戶為主對不起我現在在問的是興建社會住宅我知道所以他沒有特別強調說那沒有關係我現在問一下是目前那個政府所核定要興建社會住宅今年核定了幾戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16409.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16425.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
今年核定的我可不可以把全部跟您報告一下好不好我們如果用那個每一年的部分的話每一年的目標是5000到1000先不用跟我講目標因為目標我後來有整理出來了今年核定的幾戶到114年9月底的時候全國社會住宅已經達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16427.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16442.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這個直接新辦的部分是12萬1000人不是啊 那是以前舊的資料我說你要新的 新建的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶不是以前舊的data新的你要蓋的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶我現在的部分就是這樣的我們的目標是22萬戶現在已經達成12萬戶啊部長不好意思齁我現在在問A 但是你一直在回答B我再跟你講一次齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16455.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16469.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
你們現在針對有關於興建社會住宅不是包租代管不是租金補貼是要蓋房子起來的社會住宅你們今年核定的計畫核定的幾戶要興建我手頭上沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16470.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16480.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
是有這個數字還是說根本沒有核定當然有這個數字但是我手頭上沒有這個數字沒有關係我上一次問的時候吳興修署長跟我講的是這件事情還在討論還在研議還在規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16492.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16501.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
沒有一個答案今天部長在備詢台上說有今年有核定要興建社會住宅的戶數只是您現在手上沒有這個數字對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16504.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16528.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
今年已經到10月當然我們已經有合訂的部分現在合訂了幾戶現在你沒有這個數字沒有關係你會後什麼時候合訂的合訂的幾戶書面資料給我好不好我請那個副署長到時候再給你因為現在您今天在上面講的跟大家所掌握的資訊落差非常的大因為10月9號的時候我們的辦公室問國土署 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16529.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16543.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
國土署回覆給我們的是針對興建社會住宅的部分內政部修正的計畫提給行政院到目前為止還沒有核定這個是我在10月9號的時候辦公室的同仁所得到的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16544.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16563.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那按照部長的說法是有核定只是你現在不知道幾戶我再確認一次是這樣沒有錯嗎那我要把時間表再弄清楚沒有關係因為到時候為什麼國土署在10月9號是這樣回覆我們辦公室同仁我們再搞清楚但我最關心的事情是什麼我直接跟部長講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16565.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16581.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
直接新辦戶數這個是二年度各個年度預計累計的新辦戶數你說每一年有計劃譬如說114年就今年2025年要有15000戶115年要有15000戶116年要有15000戶這個計劃上面的數字我們都看到了但計劃歸計劃我們目前看到的事情是說按照內政部的計劃書 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16594.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16599.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
今年要招標15000戶今年有任何一戶招標嗎好可以報告租屋中心也持續在現在那個盤點的土地上面其實陸陸續續都有今年招標了幾戶詳細數字一樣會後提供一樣因為這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16621.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16641.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
你剛剛所講的過去計畫幾戶然後完成的幾戶每一個數字把它列出來大概是這個樣子但是我要說的事情是我們目前所掌握到的資訊因為社會住宅的進度包括內政部公告的資料其實我都有定期在追蹤因為一定要定期追蹤才知道說實際上面的進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16641.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16670.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我們目前所掌握到的資料目前在處理的社會住宅都還是蔡英文總統任內他們所核定的賴清德總統任內所核定興建的社會住宅我到今天備詢為止我所掌握到的資訊是零戶但是部長說不對說有那只是數字你沒有辦法提供那會後再提供沒有關係我們到會後再進一步跟部長討教這個數字因為有進度最重要有進度最重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16671.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16696.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
下一個問題是跟內政部也有關係的跟內政部有什麼關係呢因為我們為了要發展地熱為了要發展地熱的發電經濟部的地礦中心在陽明山國家公園管理處辦理探勘在這個過程當中造成了什麼造成了井噴所以陽明山那邊的住戶非常非常的關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16697.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16721.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
那針對這件事情我有問過地礦中心地礦中心說這個廠商在執行的過程當中出了一些狀況出了一些狀況那顯然就是沒有把這個案子給執行所以出現這樣子的災難那下一個問題是針對有關於國家公園管理處在國家公園境內有廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16722.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16749.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
沒有依照應該有的規格跟標準去執行地質探探作業而造成廠商的損害的這一件事情有兩個部分一個依照國家公園法該開罰就開罰只是開罰的金額很可笑新台幣3000元這個不是我真的在意的我真的在意的是它對於國家公園所造成的傷害這個損害到底要怎麼樣去填補的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16751.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16773.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
那我現在所得到的資訊是說目前針對有關於破壞陽明山國家公園森林的結果我們的內政部國家公園管理處是跟經濟部地礦中心求償不是跟廠商求償這個是怎麼回事因為當時在申請的時候是經濟部他是用研究計畫的方式所以我們就認為是經濟部他應該負責全責 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16776.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16793.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那你們為什麼不是跟實際的行為人求償呢那如果是這樣的話經濟部可以跟實際的行為人求償好第二個問題目前陽明山國家公園管理處我先講兩個問題的層次啦因為整個事情我看了覺得蠻好笑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16794.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16821.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
我們的陽明山國家公園管理處跟經濟部的地礦中心求償等於是跟國家的左手跟國家的右手求償錢全部都是納稅人的錢重點是跟廠商求償但我現在最關心的一個問題是說求償的這一百多萬國家公園管理處是按照什麼樣子的基準計算出來的因為我所得到的我所得到一方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16822.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16847.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
是居住在陽明山那邊居民的陳情那另外一方面是什麼另外一方面是有人去施壓啦當這個廠商說相啦這個廠商後台很硬啦開了三番的協調會談這個我事後再追跟內政部沒有關係但我關心的事情是什麼我關心的事情是內政部國家公園管理處針對這個球場的金額是怎麼計算出來的第二個這個錢夠嗎這是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16855.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16877.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
報告委員應該是根據當時經濟部的地礦局跟這個廠商他們之間到底是怎麼樣一個委託的計畫那是地礦中心跟廠商求償的問題現在第一個是真正該開罰的是國家公園管理處因為他造成我們國家公園的破壞按照你剛剛的說明當初提計畫的人是地礦中心所以你們跟地礦中心討 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16878.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16895.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那地礦中心會不會跟廠商討接下一步要去問地礦中心這個過程我都了解現在我的問題是第一棟什麼叫第一棟國家公園管理處跟地礦中心求償這100多萬的時候我看到這個數字我非常的驚訝我驚訝的理由是說第一個這個錢夠嗎第二個這個錢怎麼計算出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16900.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16915.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
他在文章裡面對不起他在給的那個函裡面想得非常清楚就是有關於裡面的數目或者是說裡面的引起的一些富裕上面的問題他都把他寫得非常的所以你看嘛每公頃補償第一年十二萬一千嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16916.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16935.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
第二年六萬兩千九百嘛 第三年到第六年每一年四萬塊嘛但我現在的問題還是一樣啊你如果說在探討這個球場的金額合理不合理你只是單純把這個數字加起來沒有意義啊現在我更深一層的問題是這一些每一年多少錢的數字是怎麼估出來的真的夠嗎 這是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16940.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16955.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
時間到了沒有關係啊部長可不可以請你承諾請國家公園管理處會後提供一份說明資料給我清楚的說明為什麼是用這個標準來計算因為釀成了這樣子的災害可能我不懂啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16955.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16972.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
可能我不懂對國家公園的維護原來這樣子一百多萬元就可以解決問題我自己看了是有點反常識我覺得是不夠但是當初國家公園管理處到底怎麼計算出來的他的基準是什麼是不是可以請國家公園管理處會後 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16974.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16997.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
會後用書面回覆給我可以嗎國家公園署吧 國家公園署比較好我想是不是請國家公園署跟委員這邊做一下說明然後包括沒有關係直接給我書面的養管處為什麼只有酒廠100多萬這個部分好嗎直接給我書面好嗎因為我覺得非常奇怪的是如果今天是這個廠商必須要負責任的話為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16999.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17017.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
最後的金額只有這個樣子這個錢真的夠嗎這個是我現在正在關心的事情需要多久一個禮拜之內可以嗎我想應該可以因為這件事情是七月底所以他們在算的過程當中應該已經有依據好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17044.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17074.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
主席有請內政部還有農業部經濟部委員好部長還有大家都辛苦了今天這個本席提出一些這個資料不是要救者就是要從這個這一次的災害我們怎麼樣去做更好的一個防範好我們看這一次的馬太安燕塞府 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17075.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17103.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
花蓮光復及鳳嶺的嚴重災害有三大項第一個就是人民的傷亡人民的傷亡的原因當然跟沒有完全撤離有關係這是第一個第一個原因第二個為處理防範菸塞浮潰壩這是第二個原因其實主要原因第三個人民傷亡就提防未修築 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17104.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17133.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
加固加高這兩個才是最重要的撤離是最後的好第二個房屋淹水土石家計沖毀汽車機車沖毀農田農作物淹埋土石加上道路還有很多的公設施被沖毀他主要原因與撤離無關跟撤離沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17134.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17163.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
是跟著嗎沒有處理防範菸塞浮潰壩沒有防範潰壩另外當然就是提防沒有修組未修組加固加高第三個馬太安溪的橋沖毀當然主要就是這個菸塞浮沒有處理沒有防範潰壩我們看這個今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17166.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17191.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
這個災害防救法第22條為減少災害發生或防止災害擴大各級政府要怎麼怎麼樣要減災包括治山防洪及其他國土保安災害潛勢危險度近況模擬與風險評估之調查分析及事實公佈其結果都有公佈了我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17193.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17222.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
今天经农业部的报告你们从114年7月下旬来去谈今天的这么重大的灾害这是你们今天的报告提到花莲分属7月26号空情中然后提到7月26号林业属花莲分属成立烟赛福应变小组一个花莲分属 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17223.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17252.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
这个层级就有需要检讨一个花莲分属他能够他只能找一些比如说九合分属对不对所以这个层级就有问题就需要检讨好我们看农业部的报告7月26号起这个摇测分数然后怎么做这些工作8月158月11阳明大选 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17253.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17283.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
成大8月20号已经是8月中旬以后了这个都是要去针对这一次的灾情这么大怎么样去做更好的一个措施好我们看这个农业部的报告7月26号刚刚讲了花莲分属召开应变小组8月6号花莲分属防灾工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17283.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17313.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
也是花蓮分署而已一直到8月27號才提高到行政院的成績行政院折承農業部還是折承農業部而已所以這個部分從這樣的我還沒有全部列好我們來看這是農業部林業署的資料這是你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17314 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17335.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
馬太安溪淹塞浮現況的報告單這裡面寫得很清楚馬安溪支流92年已有崩塌現象109年起我把字放大109年起支流上游裸露面積逐年擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17336.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17365.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
以其主流馬鞍溪匯流處有時有細水有時無細水細水面積0.25公頃113年康瑞颱風加大了7年我們就不談109好了最起碼7年7年113年我們要深刻的來檢討好我們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17367.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17393.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
本席在8月初開始知道媒體開始知道這個訊息所以我在8月13號提了這個附帶結議這裡面提的很重要的就是說工程方面工程措施方面挖一紅道修築堤防固船工等這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17396.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17424.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
在8月15號8月15號立法院通過了這個結議本席在8月20號發文給相關的部會召開協調會因為我看到訊息說10月初就要預留了所以我8月20號開了協調會特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17425.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17453.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
要依立法院的決議開挖易洪道開挖易洪道有困難最起碼修築堤防故傳功德寫得非常清清楚楚很遺憾當時的會議水利署請來的是誰呢一樣九合幾他能做嗎沒有預算給他沒有經費給他他怎麼去做呢對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17455.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17478.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
好我們看就是有發生了個災害之後水利署很辛苦的動員了各分署的機器工程人員10月5號加高完成10月5號從8月24號發生災害9月24號發生9月23號發生災害9月24號開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17484.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17512.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
去看了解 再寫9月25號緊急施作短短的時間所以如果我們從去年抗類颱風之後如果能夠積極的處理不要說一洪道了防範潰壩真的有困難的話最起碼是修築堤防 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17513.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17542.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
就不会冲到部落冲到社区冲毁这个相关的人民所以这个部分中企就是明年4月会完成复建工程所以这个时间你看如果当初当然水利署你没有经费必须行政要给你经费所以这个部分都是环环相扣的环环相扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17545.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17570.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
我們看這個經濟部的報告好國有林地菸塞浮應變標準作業程序請問一下這個林業署農業部這個國有林地菸塞浮應變標準作業程序是你們訂的嗎對你們訂的對不對要不要檢討要嘛要檢討要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17574.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17600.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
現在顯然這個應變標準作業程序難以防範難以所以這個都是要檢討所以你們很辛苦的去救災的同時怎麼樣把防範因為台灣多山啊多多煙災福啊所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17602.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17630.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
多要所以看到这样的一个情形真的我们不要集中在某些该检讨的当然要检讨该怎么样能够做得更好防范未来非常非常的重要所以这个部分请这个尤其是内政部因为障害防救法是你们的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17630.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17648.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
主管機關怎麼樣災害的預防更甚於後續的救災所以這個部分災害預防非常非常的重要大家一起加油一起努力謝謝好謝謝委員支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17658.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17661.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
謝謝鄭天才委員 接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長邀請董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17679.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17694.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
委員好部長辛苦了我想碰到這樣的事情大家都很心痛但是我們要團結好好的努力去將我們必要做的一定要把它做到到位要精進的我們要好好精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17695.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17713.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那所以呢我看到你的這個資料裡頭也據媒體報導在10月9號我們看到你有一個預告有一個預告也就是年底到明年初要在12個縣市成立原民特收隊來強化部落防災救災的一個量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17714.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17734.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
那我們也看到據統計739個部落當中446處就是屬於環境敏感的地區188處是屬於孤島型的部落那災難發生時不管是交通中斷通訊失聯這種看得到到不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17735.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17759.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
的情況那麼似乎現在我們看到常態那如果中央呢我們在整個都市計畫的這個消防邏輯設計是以這個為主那更欠缺了一個統一訓練跟調度的一個機制那我深怕 我深怕我們的原民特首隊又會成為一個流雨形勢所以我本行因為我們台中 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17759.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17780.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
自己為我們的部落早上我也跟經濟部長也在討論也就是當他偏鄉他一旦發生災難的時候他的店也沒有辦法進去的時候那麼微型電網必須能夠佈建在那裡讓他們至少三天72小時他是可以應對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17781.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17791.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那所以呢本期非常的希望原民特收隊他不是留意形勢而是真正能夠在地防災在地這個救災那請教部長你們的進度跟你們的方向報告委員我們10月9號的時候我要求我們的消防署 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17800.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17827.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
跟12個縣市包括台中市在內成立這個原民特收隊那原民特收隊呢第一個譬如說他退休的這個特種這個部隊的成員或者是在國家公園署或者是現在的內政部有這個山地原住民的這些身份的人他們能夠就地經過我們在南投縣竹山的這個消防特收的訓練之後才能夠成立而不是流於形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17828.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17849.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那這個人是外加的一定要受過訓練如果沒有受過訓練取得資格的話就不叫特收隊所以我們的目的就是要在地防救跟在地防災基本上是在地但是如果萬一有更大的部分也是要協同幫忙處理其他的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17850.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17874.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
必須要跨部會這個很重要原民會跟我們一起舉行記者會所以就是內政部跟原民會會一起來推動好那接下來本席要跟你討論的炸氣犯罪呢他是已經高度的數位化高度的數位化那他不只數位化他還跨境化他甚至我們現在如果傳統能力的增長是難以應付 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17875.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17877.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
但是因為人工智慧AI它又可以很快速的去處理龐大的資料而且可以分析交易跟IP的一個流量那預測異常的行為對於跨國整個網路的詐欺破案它是有影響力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17894.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17897.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
但是我們也看到AI它仍舊沒有辦法去取代在現場蒐證跟情緒的判斷如果演算錯誤的話那又會導致人權的一個爭議所以部長跟警政署相關單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17911.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17935.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
目前我們所規劃的AI輔助這個偵查制度當中我們的標準的這個流程以及審查的流程還有也就是在我們釐清警察的AI的培訓這一點是非常非常的重要因為我們的目的要確保AI在打擊犯罪詐騙的時候能夠成為真正的這個幫助而不是成為主力請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17943.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17957.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
委員非常的先進知道說AI可以輔助我們在警政署尤其是警政同仁在從事司法警察工作上面的困擾我們當然也是一樣AI它沒有辦法跟人一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17958.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17976.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
所以現在AI對我們來講他是屬於科技偵查裡面非常重要的一部分包括我們要處理龐大的資料量或者是要分析或者是IP這些都是屬於後端在做科技偵查裡面必要的手段那目前為止的我們在處理的方向不會觸及到真人 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17976.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17997.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
所以比較沒有人權上面的一個必須要以現在的法律來規範的以外的部分不會超出我們的法制外那也謝謝我們在這個上個會期跟這個會期裡面我們在警政署裡面通過一個大的這個流量記錄器這個大概三年要用102億的部分就是我們累積大量的資料來做分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17998.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18012.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那也跟委員報告目前我們的警政署尤其是刑事局的科技偵查中心大概從歷次的這個詐騙案裡面已經累計出來我們大概會鎖定大概是有9萬個這個帳號或是9萬的他是屬於有潛在高風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18014.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18039.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那既然是潛在高風險我們就會針對潛在高風險這是經過AI的幫忙來去處理怎麼樣提醒他不要踏入這個詐騙的陷阱大概是後端的科學技術上面增防非常重要的一部分這個非常重要 對所以這也是全世界的一個趨勢但是我們要注意在整個培訓方面本席認為這是非常重要因為在整個判斷方面如果判斷錯誤那整個也會歪樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18042.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18067.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
所以本席還是建議我們在AI的這個遠景的一個培訓方面你必須要與時俱進是 我們每一個刑事局每一個刑事單位都有科技偵查隊這以前講針灸隊那他們應該是在法律的規範之下才能夠從事這方面的工作這非常重要 培訓也是非常重要接下來本席跟你討論一個我們陽明山國家公園管理處的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18069.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18074.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
因為我們從109年看到在園區流浪貓犬本身非常的重視這個議題那我們看到現在跟這個鄉信動物協會還有少數的志工他們在合作進行的TNVR但是我們看到整體性的計畫似乎是不足的為什麼呢因為整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18095.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18107.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
這個犬隻他不斷的自園區外溢在外溢的情況之下我們看到台北市街頭的流浪貓犬約有九成都是來自陽明山國家公園的管轄區內這個我有點不太相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18111.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18117.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
你請說來你請看形成地方收容他的壓力還有民眾安全的疑慮安全疑慮那我們顯示部長在整個地方收容已經有壓力跟公共安全的這個危險性的時候我們要怎麼樣能夠協助國家公園他們在做這一個我們大家希望照著流程做TMVR的這個流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18138.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18143.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
能夠讓他們去落實讓這個外溢的機制它是沒有風險的請求說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18147.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18175.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
報告委員第一個我不太相信台北市的流量犬貓九成是來自養管處因為養管處他不可能去成立一個動物繁殖場但是我相信您所講的沒有錯流量犬貓是需要管理的那詳細的管理狀況第一個我會責成陽明山國家公園管理處把現在的狀況跟委員做一個報告那再來呢如果是流量犬貓要管理的話要跟地方政府一起來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18176.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18179.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
包括有結紮等等就是比較人道性的作為來處理這個部分那養管處他們在管理上面有沒有失靈的部分我會後會來請這個養管處說一個說明我想你先站不說你相信不相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18192.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18196.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
問題產生的時候我們要去研議了解實境的明末這是第一個第二個因為陽明山管理公園他的一個管轄區他是有限制區所以要怎麼樣可以合作這是我們很重要的一個議題現在提出在他們作為計劃的這個方向他沒有辦法去落實的時候我們應該要協助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18219.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18221.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
應該協助他所以你剛剛的回答很好你會責成他們目前他們執行的狀況究竟是如何我們去研議怎麼樣的方式可以精進方案這才是我們要的請你把了解的情況順便資料給本席我們一起來討論謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18242.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18257.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在接下來邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在接下來洪孟凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18272.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18299.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
好主席謝謝麻煩請內政部劉世芳部長我們請劉部長農業部次長也麻煩還有農業部次長好部長那個本期間當然大家都關心所謂驗射壺的相關的一個後續的狀況其實就是花蓮的一個部分那我先跟您這邊再做個確認因為本期記得在兩個禮拜前左右的這個特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18300.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18328.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
的一个质询的时候我有请教当时李洪源前部长他也是用他的专家的一个意见是讲是说目前还有所谓3.2亿泥沙本来上面有3.2亿泥沙那现在这一次下来7000万泥沙还有2.5亿泥沙左右但是他讲的我后来特别注意到他讲的所谓是泥沙的部分并不是水量的部分今天几个部会给我们的数据就说现在到目前为止 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18329.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18349.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
馬太安溪的這個艷澀湖的水量約蓄水量是155萬公噸所以我先請教一下因為9月24號本期有看到一個數字是李洪源部長這邊有跟內政部這邊來做討論是說9月24號上面還有所謂3000萬公噸的水量那到今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18350.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18362.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
提供的资料只剩155万公吨所以是不是这个验射壶它其实还是有持续有把这些水量排放的一个状况说明一下好吧我想因为监测单位是农业部我请他来回应好吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18366.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18390.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
跟委員報告目前確實是他達到一個差不多平衡的狀態就是進多少水他就出多少水所以他其實過去到現在一直還是有所謂的水量有流失的一個狀況是不是自然的流失他目前是維持平衡目前的這個水量沒有太多的消長那現在會因為是您剛所說到剩下150萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18392.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18418.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
跟之前的數據有比較大差異是因為我們重新安裝水位計之後發現到他應該是在之前923的時候溢流潰絕的過程當中他有很多的泥沙也往湖區來沉積然後當天下大雨所以也很多泥沙進來所以他現在的湖底的形狀可能從原本比較像一個碗的形狀變成是一個淺碟子的形狀所以水量是變少但是那邊的問題現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18419.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18437.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
您剛所提到土砂的問題是泥沙的問題嗎所以我想要確認的地方就是說你今天白紫黑字的資料是155萬公噸的水量那泥沙呢因為李洪源部長他在上個禮拜的記者會其實讓我們這個數字我覺得相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18438.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18461.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
對於當地的居民來說或說全國民眾來說也是會感到焦慮的就是說上面有3.2億噸的泥沙但這一次即便是那麼嚴重的風災只下來了7000不能講只啦下來了7000萬公噸那上面還有2.5億的泥沙那會不會接下來現代極端氣候那我們要怎麼樣因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18462.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18475.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
我覺得這才是關鍵嘛對這也是我們後續要特別在監測跟防範的那就是上頭的這些差不多還有2.5億萬立方的這個泥沙他未來會隨著比如說大禹 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18478.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18500.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
這個它有可能還是會逐漸往下移動那即使是沒有豪大雨的情況下長期有時候下小雨它還是會比較緩慢的向下移動所以包含最下游的青蘇還有剛今天大家所關注的堤防的這個加高還有就是說怎麼樣在中上游想辦法能夠有一些藍沙或主沙不要讓這些沙一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18501.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18530.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
一次性的嚴重對這個都是後續從上中下游都要去努力的好那所以剛剛也確認是說現在確實上面還有2.5億公噸的一個泥沙是好那現在比較積極的作為我相信一定會有可是如果說短時間內這可能就要回來到部長這邊部長上禮拜我記得我質詢的時候有特別詢問過所謂有沒有中央啟動千春計畫那當時您給我的答覆是說一個禮拜現在在一 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18531.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18549.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
咨詢相關這個村民的一個意見對受災戶的意見那現在的狀況怎麼樣你說一個禮拜內跟委員報告那個我們現在在重災戶的部分呢幾乎每一戶都有找到人因為有的時候他們到收容安置或者移清到別的地方那我們現在呢所以我們重災戶這樣子總共計算下來89戶對 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18553.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18567.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
那現在呢有58戶呢在收容安置那39戶依親那目前為止呢有40戶表達需要中繼屋那那個到目前為止呢沒有人表達要遷村 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18569.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18598.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
那這個是個別災戶的意見所以我們現在可能就是先朝著說在台塘的一塊五公頃的土地上面看是不是先來蓋中繼屋然後才慢慢解決他們未來收容安置的問題所以說中繼屋有可能是在台塘這邊會由內政部這邊來做進行嗎是的 我們會負責處理這一塊但是他們要不要去中繼屋還要再問他們你剛剛有提到就是說有40戶表達意願是他們是希望去中繼屋所以說其實也還沒有到一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18598.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18612.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
因為你89戶的重災戶嘛對好那剩下的這些重災戶勒有的人可能要移清39戶移清有的人要移清有人要租屋是有的人要回到原住所 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18612.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18623.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
因為本席有看到您這邊今天內政部的相關資料有包括說一清有包括說租屋補貼或是租金補貼或是短期旅宿等等的部分這是最近現在這個狀態現在這個狀態但比較長期的狀態重災戶是89戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18629.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18656.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
所以本席現在想確認的地方就是說因為剛剛我們也詢問完畢了嘛就是說上面如果說至少有2.5億公噸的泥沙那其實某種程度上我們短時間內也沒有辦法有比較積極的作為當然你有1 2 3的步驟但實際上在那個地方到底適不適合居住這可能大家都還要再評估甚至打一個問號所以說我們現在想的是說怎麼樣保障地方的鄉親的一個權利本席那個時候提出來當時在 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18658.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18674.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
不管是921地震或是88風災莫拉克風災的時候其實就是中央地方有一起配合尤其是中央提出所謂的災後復原計畫條例那並且中央這邊協助引導不管是部會的溝通以及編列的預算還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18675.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18692.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
後續的整合的部分所以我現在才請教是說那到底我們後續這一個部分重災戶也好或是說花蓮的鄉親在這邊的一個鄉親他後續何去何從報告委員我們上個禮拜的行政院議會已經有通過一個丹納斯颱風加上這一次這個那個豔賽湖的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18697.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18702.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
所以我們的預算呢是編列250億就除了丹納斯以外的這個600億以外編列250億那針對後續的這個收容安置的部分的話大概我們提出三種條件一個就是異地重建一個是原地重建那這個部分呢當然是要問過災民的意見那還有一個在這中間的中繼的部分的話呢我要求我們的次長來協助看是不是這個東華大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18725.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18729.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
跟都市防災有關的或是區域計畫有關的幫我們做一下基本上如果未來這個地方仍然有這個驗賽湖的這個危機的話要不要做不同的都市計畫包括說是不是整個要遷移到某個地方因為這一次呢目前為止是緩和的狀態明年的汛期有沒有更大的颱風要來沒有人敢保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18751.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18760.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
甚至不一定以現在的極端氣候其實你說十月有可能颱風也會沒有人敢預測 人定無法勝天所以我們希望在兩三個月之內包括東華大學的這個都市建築研究所在提供告訴我們說過去的歷史紀錄裡面以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18773.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18791.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
現在的重災區媽祖街那個地方89戶是不是都不宜居住那這個部分出來以後我們會朝著這方向再跟花蓮縣政府或是光復鄉公所來做比較好的溝通是因為其實我覺得對災民來講他們也需要是專業的判斷告訴他們說到底他們的家園後續要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18794.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18799.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
會對於他們的生命財產安全其實是最有力的幫助對 這是中長期我們要處理的計畫但是短期內就是我們這兩天這個紀連城政委希望跟花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所展開處理一下疏散撤離的機制因為現在的人已經不居住在原地他在收容安置所或在別的地方所以怎麼樣把人口做最好的清查知道他人在哪裡到時候有狀況怎麼樣把他撤離出來才不會找不到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18821.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18835.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
那這樣會對於那個有效的這個做疏散撤離計畫會打折好所以我想雖然我們不是花蓮鄉親但是我們對花蓮鄉親的關心是沒有分彼此的報告委員我們現在跟花蓮縣政府一樣都是為期一級開設是這個一級開設其實每一天滾動進來的數據的我們都會做判斷所以才會有前進指揮所陸陸續續有市長跟這個政務委員都在現場幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18850.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18876.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
我想很多跨部會應該處理的部分我想行政院都非常盡力在幫忙處理一快不一慢啦就像我那天總執軍的時候特別提到是說後續的這個所謂的重建計畫等等的也希望能夠有政委來做一個調和不管是農業部不管是內政部相關部會都一起來做我還是再次強調就是說雖然花蓮我們並不是花蓮的鄉親但是花蓮在這一次的受災我們全國都感同身受 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18876.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18885.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
也因此特別用這個機會來跟您就教未來我們還持續追蹤也請內政部把握這樣子一個專業的精神勇於認識謝謝謝謝謝謝洪文凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18892.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18915.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
接下来我们林楚英委员林楚英委员林楚英委员不在是翁晓琳翁晓琳委员翁晓琳委员翁晓琳委员不在接下来是郑振成委员郑振成委员郑振成委员不在苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18916.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18926.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在陳寅委員陳寅委員陳寅委員不在現在是吳麗華委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委內政部長主委跟部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18947.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18950.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
主委好部長好我今天來是幫我們馬太安的居民來去做一個陳情請命為什麼呢因為大概昨天晚間11點左右花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長他有在他的臉書 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18965.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18982.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
有發文請大家支持這一次畫家殺風災記花蓮馬太安溪眼色虎潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法那麼一個多小時之後也就是凌晨一點多 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18983.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18987.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
馬太安那個地方的粉磚就發文強烈的來反對這個磚法特別是第六條那第六條是什麼我念給大家聽這個第六條呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18999.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19028.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
叫做政府得救災區安全堪於或違法濫建之土地經與原住居者諮商取得共識得劃定特定區域限制居住或限其強制遷居遷村且應與符合前項之適當安置這個文字呢跟16年前的莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19028.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19034.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
一字不差那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的反彈你應該還記得吧主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19058.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19061.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
那不太曉得說為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到這個華家莎的這個特別的條例裡面但是我特別要提的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19075.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19097.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
部落族人他們講了很久我們媒體也都看得到他們一直講四個字希望能夠中繼安置 中繼安置所以他們也有一點點納悶 他們說為什麼國民黨所提出的這個華紮莎的特別條例跟我們先前行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19098.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19106.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
他提出的是就丹納斯G728的災後特別重建條例說要來做一個修訂那我是有解釋給他們聽我說這個丹納斯G728的特別條例他是增加了第四條就是馬太安溪顏色湖整治及災區復原其中有一個叫做受災民安置 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19126.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19131.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
那麼他們說那受災民安置沒有看到啊我們目前看到的安置措施是原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛那內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿租金補貼貸款利息補貼那他們就說沒有看到所以我在這邊請教一下部長您做一下確認這個受災民眾安置就是行政院的版本有沒有包括中繼安置 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19156.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19176.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
您回覆讓他們安心有包括我們現在在訪談裡面希望能夠做中繼屋大概就40戶左右當然是有包括在內那我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置我們應該都很了解其實守重就是尊重民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19177.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19197.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
這個非常重要如果跳過這個程序政府的美意就是為德不足人家也不會買單也不會高興所以我想這個部分我們來了解一下他們很擔心說我們一直喊中繼安置他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思我來說明一下簡單的來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19199.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19221.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
就是希望我們有一天我們要重建我們的家園但是我們不應該是分散我們不應該是一清不應該是臨時去住在旅社他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟我們的社會韌性我們應該在一起去討論我們未來家園要如何重建 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19222.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19235.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
因為這不是政府的事而已是我們大家的事所以他們很重視這種集體性跟社會韌性因此我舉個例子他們希望說要有一個大家的家可以在那邊討論會所 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19237.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19249.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
那當然他們也要有一個隱密性安心的一個居所可能是組合屋搭建甚至是考量到他們的民生需求也許一個組合屋他是雜貨店可以讓大家方便去買東西那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19253.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19272.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家像印尼菲律賓日本他們也都有這樣的措施像日本的那一次的這個熊本大地震他們這個照片可以看到大家的家 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19273.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19279.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
各別的臨時組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店其實都有這樣的一個安置的方法但是我們好像目前還沒有寄莫拉克之後這16年我們還沒有看到這樣的一個做法所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19294.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19296.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
我們就是會在這一次行政院版本的修正的這個第四條裡面會去做這樣的一個處置那剛才部長您有回到我想大家都有聽到也都很安心但是我就想要再請教一下主委跟處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19309.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19323.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
因為很多莫拉克之後還有很多還沒有完成重建的你應該很清楚知道有的是水的重建道路的重建還很多因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了然後他也還沒做完以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到所以我要說的是以這次的丹納斯來講像山地門鄉的德文 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19335.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19335.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19353.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19365.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
這個大赦這個部分也是放在這個丹阿斯條例裡面所以會一併來處理對不對那很好他們聽到了應該會很安心了那我現在最後就是要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉離災不離村這個是有共識的 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19368.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19384.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的但是就是很希望說要有一個部落諮商同意的程序不能夠去違背原基法的精神政府無論怎麼定法或者做什麼樣的辦法我們都希望原民會 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19386.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19397.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
這個是你們要把關你們要提醒各部會因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地是不是也應該得到我們在地族人的一個共識對不對那我最後就是想要拜託一下內政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19406.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19431.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
因為剛才我已經有聽到了你回答洪孟楷委員中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了我剛有聽到了那他們不要永久屋要中繼安置你們也都在行政院板有處理了那選擇部落認可的地點重建我相信現在應該大家都能夠去知道一定要去尊重族人但是我要特別講 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19434.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19460.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
這個莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次就丹納斯我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例但是需要做災後安置我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19461.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19484.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
我們是認為不需要應該是回歸到國土計劃法裡面有國土富裕區他的用地取得補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定那如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論包括他劃定的條件遷居限制居住的條件那誰要參與其中他的程序是如何那部長這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計劃法裡面來重新的檢視一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19490.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19504.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
謝謝吳委員的關心但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲要6年以後才會繼續處理但是我們現在的部分我可以跟委員報告一下就是花蓮縣他有一個變更光復都市計畫的第4次通盤檢討裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19505.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19515.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
那也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的這個變更但是到目前為止就是從110年到現在花蓮縣並沒有提到任何簽證的計劃給我們但是未來的狀況我剛有跟那個洪委員有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19521.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19545.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
報告過第一個我們來委託一個這個都市計畫的一個大學團隊在短時間之內把這一次因為地形地貌變更包括有出現這個比較危險的區域趕快做一個變更那如果變更來得及的話包括您剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方當然我們現在為止是以台塘因為台塘現在的光復園區是沒有在這一次的這個艷澀湖的這個影響範圍內是比較安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19548.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19570.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
也就是他可能不離鄉但是可不可以離村那這樣他們可不可以接受那如果不願意接受的話就要進入這個都市計畫的通盤檢討裡面做一個比較詳細的討論那這樣合法合規那如果經費需要支援的話就會在行政院現在所編列丹納斯之後的這個颱風我們總共編列了250億裡面做這個地方特別預算支出的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19571.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19588.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
謝謝部長您這樣的回覆也讓我安心不少但是我還是要提醒屏東縣政府在上個禮拜也有提報一個計畫給我們園民會可能也有內政部那最主要就是因為像屏東仍舊有莫拉克之後的分水嶺 士文 德文 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19590.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
19610.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
19611.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
19628.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
19639.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
19643.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
謝謝吳祐厚委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員好謝謝昭偉破例給我三分鐘那我是不是請我們內政部部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
19666.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
19667.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
部長我們經歷了從7月丹納斯728的強降雨到後來花蓮的這一次的災害事實上我們看到了很多居民在避難在做防災避難的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
19683.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19701.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
空間的不足那空間的不足主要就是說因為村民如果要緊急避難的話最好的地方就是那個枕頭要有一個防災避難所或者是他有很多震災的物品必須要放在一個空間這最好的就是村裡辦公室是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19701.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19717.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
但是我們知道有很多村民辦公室真的是老化老化到 第一 你在那個空間你就覺得它的味道就是已經很老的房子味道也不好再來 沒有空調你知道如果真的有居民我們地方在水災的時候有的大人去那個村裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19720.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19725.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
那個活動中心那時候好熱欸 熱到沒有空調叫他在那邊睡一晚 睡好幾晚真的痛苦到村長要穿冷氣 冷氣之後要去載冰鋼來不是 穿電風 電風之後要載冰鋼用電風打冷氣吹給那些老人家在那邊他才有辦法有一個空間所以事實上呈現出來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
19748.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
19770.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
我們村裡這個防災避難的空間不是沒有就是老化因為有很多是特別的空間所以我們看到這一次我們的特別預算在編列的時候我本來我就漏掉了這一項事實上特別預算對於鄉鎮村裡活動中心的防災準備空間是沒有編列這樣的預算這個我覺得好可惜這個應該要編列的 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
19775.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
19803.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
我們有把它編在任性條例裡面國土安全任性條例裡面有編列進去預算裡面不知道有沒有防救災緊急衛生物資整備編列15億8520就是這一次在中央的這個國土安全任性計畫條例裡面把它放進去預算如果有的話我認為這是真的是需要的然後第二個就是說因為過去我們內政部對於村裡這樣的一個集會所它的補助上限就是400萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
19805.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
19832.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
就四百萬而且這個已經將近二三十年來沒有調整過那四百萬是什麼概念我們知道你現在要蓋一個適當的空間那兩層樓兩層樓的話都超過差不多三千萬所以縱使中央這個中央如果補助四百萬剩下的讓地方去找錢真的是很難但地方也是會多少出一點錢但是中央如果核定上限是四百萬的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
19833.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
19860.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
基本上你要在城頭然後來興建這樣的一個防災避難或者是村裡的集會所事實上它就是多功能的一個概念這個錢是不足的所以我們想說我們現在整個因為我們現在整個防災要有更新的思維然後村民的一個避難空間必須要有是要有足夠的空間這個預算是不足的是完全不足我們今天8月的時候前瞻預算已經全部用完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
19861.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
19886.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
是所以不夠所以對剛剛委員所提到的部分第一個我們是不是依照鄉鎮因為你一定要有主要的一個避難中心那避難中心不一定是村裡辦公室通常都是活動中心或者是國小國中這些那我們會在所謂的國土的維生物資整備上面包括您剛剛所提到不是冷氣機是緊急發電機或是緊急要用的電源 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
19887.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
19913.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
那按照我們的防災協作中心的方式來做大量的配備好那這樣子的部分呢會比較好比如說現在再去找經費把所有的村裡集會活動所全部再重新修繕這可能會曠日廢時我們現在就是先準備一下現在如果有必須要這個疏散或是收容的時候呢怎麼樣把裡面的設備設施把它加強跟補強甚至呢它有物資有集放的地方比較安全的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
19914.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
19940.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
譬如說我剛才說的緊急發電機或者是有什麼柴油的部分或者是緊急的濾水設備因為如果你要到收容安置的地方第一個只是做維生而已啦你不可能說從那吃喝玩樂都很好部長當然沒有要到所謂但是我要跟部長說有水有電有的吃有的睡但是我要跟部長說因為很多老人家他們如果是淹水的話你要叫他移動到 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
19941.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
19944.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
鄉鎮可能設備雖然比較好可是他就是不想離開他們會寧可會在村裡村裡的一個集會所這個我知道因為你要這樣的話再跨出那個增淘如果當然如果這次花蓮的狀況另當別論嘛那是強制撤離 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
19957.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
19963.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
但是有的時候是因處因罪然後我們就說你離開你的家裡到村來的一個安置空間可是這個安置空間的環境是不足的所以我才會藉由這個村裡的這個如果要興建一個村裡的適當的集會所預算不足這件事情想要跟部長討論說能不能用這個機會來做整體的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
19982.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
19995.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
報告委員我們現在的錢真的8月用完了看可不可以在財政收支劃分法裡面請地方政府多擔待一點我們真的是講我們實際上的狀況沒有關係我是覺得這個可以來檢討防災協助中心的話基本上我們的設計是以每個村裡辦公室來處理包括未來如果防災所需要的替代役的人力我們的規劃大概是每個地方希望能夠有20到50個人來協助做疏散撤離 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
20010.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
20027.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
就是協助做收容安置的人力上面的需求大概基本上是我們這方面但是硬體設備都村裡辦公室全部做修繕這個對我們民政單位來講民政司來講這個預算量太大我們沒有辦法在這個地方跟委員說我們一定能夠爭取得到好 了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
20030.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
20056.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
好謝謝蔡議員那登記發言委員除不在場者外其余經已發言完畢答詢結束委員翁曉琳丁學中高精素美委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並支付本位本次會議到此結束現在散會 |