| IVOD_ID |
16934 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16934 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-13T08:32:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-13T13:33:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:00:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685299c9345d7f245bd76f414ddf3fe883bb5dbf79f23f633bba85c982933df27745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:46 - 13:33:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
711.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
714.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
我愛你我愛你我愛你我愛你 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1653.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1661.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
報告委員會初期委員私人移組法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1662.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1685.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年十月八日星期三九十二分至十五十四分十月九日星期四九十二分至十二時五十八分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員林委員月清等十四人列席委員賴委員世保等二十三人請假委員王委員育敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1686.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1703.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
列席官員10月8日環境部部長彭啟明勞動部部長洪生翰衛生福利部部長石崇良等相關人員10月9日勞動部部長洪生翰等相關人員主席廖召集委員韋翔10月8日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1705.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1725.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
邀請環境部部長 勞動部部長及衛生福利部部長針對災後復原重建及清理因應作為進行專題報告並被質詢另邀請國防部 經濟部 內政部 政災基金會列席備詢本日會議由環境部部長 勞動部部長及衛生福利部部長報告後委員林月琴等23人提出質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1726.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1750.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
軍經環境部部長 勞動部部長 衛生福利部部長經濟部能源署代理署長李軍禮內政部國土管理署副總工程司林佑林援助民族委員會公共建設處檢任暨政孟中傑及國防部作戰及計畫參謀次長室助理次長彭國洲及各相關主管等及其答覆委員陳金輝 王玉敏所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1751.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1767.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定十月九日邀請勞動部部長針對因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策進行專題報告並備質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1772.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1797.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
本日會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等14人提出質詢均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員徐欣盈 牛許廷 王玉敏 蘇清泉及盧憲一所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一 報告質詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1798.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1826.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 謝謝 請問委員會上市議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有 那如果沒有我們就議事錄來確認本日會議整為邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安記載能力不足問題進行專題報告並備質詢 那我們現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位是陳昭思陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1829.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1855.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
第二位是王正旭 王委員第三位是林月琴 林委員好 初期的官員 衛福部部長施崇良 早那第二位是行政院食品安全辦公室主任徐福好 其他還是要介紹一下啦生命藥物管理署署長江志剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1858.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1881.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
中央健康保險署署長陳亮宇社會極佳領事署代理署長周道軍保護服務司副市長郭采榮國民健康署檢任計政陳立堅好謝謝那接下來就請文部副市部長來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1891 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1904.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席還有各位委員本部這個陳大院安排就重大食安事件的處理之檢討與食安集合能力不足問題今天進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1906.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1921.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那本部的食藥署呢定有中央食品事件處理標準作業說明書那麼來作為但發生有食品事件的時候的調查通報處理溝通改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1922.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1943.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
等事項之依據來維護國人的飲食所以以下先就他的作業程序跟各位委員做報告那麼第一個就是一旦事件發生的時候那麼我們分成邊境查獲或者是地方的主管機關的主動查核或者是因為有民眾檢舉或檢調偵辦那麼我們都適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1947.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1970.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這樣的一個標準作業程序那麼它的處理第一個當然就是先有初步的調查那麼依據這個了解的事實不法的情勢進行收證那麼集合資訊來做研判那麼第二個會啟動減緊調的合作如果它涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1971.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1989.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
食安法49條的刑事事件就會立即那麼啟動這樣的聯合稽查的作業那麼藉由警檢警部門的協助迅速來介入調查依法追究責任那第三呢那麼如果涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1990.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2012.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個事件本身會有跨部會的事實比如說會與農業部或環境部等等我們也有成立這個環境保護與食品安全協調匯報所以一旦這個食安事件涉及到跨部會的那麼也會在這個食安辦的指導之下來共同做協同追查追蹤處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2014.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2039.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第四個會成立緊急應變中心如果是重大的食安事件就會依據風險分級來開設由應變中心來加強跨部門之間的溝通協調確保進度能夠快速追查源頭採取必要的防範措施減少影響第五就是進行封存下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2040.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2064.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
回收對於不合格的產品就會進行溯源那麼處理這個封存或者是下架之後那麼做銷毀那麼另外呢也會進行擴大的抽驗那麼開發檢驗的方法擴大這個檢驗抽驗來確保市場上的食品的安全那麼以本次事件為例那麼除了這個現場查獲的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2068.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2086.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
產品那麼進行檢驗之外也這個由全國責成全國的各縣市衛生局進行市場上的擴大檢驗那到目前為止呢那麼就本次事件的檢驗結果那麼也都還是符合在我們的標準以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2087.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2103.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那同時第六個就是會進行新聞的處理跟風險的溝通那對所有的處理的進度包含這些違法的產品的流向那麼我們都會及時的公佈讓民眾呢理解那麼進行風險的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2104.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2126.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那麼資訊透明來增進公眾的信任度那麼之後在這個事件處理完之後呢也還會進行這個改善的檢討來檢討是否還需要在更進一步的這個就作業流程或者是相關的法規或者是監測的計畫上來做這個修正那麼強化這個食安 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2131.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2147.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
的管理體系那麼至於在人力的部分那麼承蒙各委員的關切那目前在這個食安集合那麼屬於地方事務那麼經查呢在114年地方衛生局所配置的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2148.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2171.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
市安的稽查人力共是463名另外在今年度另外由食藥署再補助給地方政府衛生局稽查人力45名所以合計原額是508名至於在人力上如何來運用能夠救 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2172.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2199.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個高風險的食品或者是曾經有過的風險事件那麼來加強查核同時近期也導入了一些AI的資訊那麼透過大數據的分析那更精準的去針對必要的專案集合那麼來執行所以以上呢就今天大院所關切的事項做以上的報告那麼再請各位委員給予指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2208.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2213.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好謝謝市部長的報告接下來請這個行政院食品安全辦公室主任許甫來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2220.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2241.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席各位委員女士先生那我就簡單進入今天有兩個的主題第一個是重大食安事件應變的處理檢討那我們整個食品安全的施政是政府推動五打七安跟民生最攸關的施政 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2242.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2271.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
重點然後主要是根據五環2.0的食安政策然後來強化這個跨部會還有中央跟地方的局處相關的共同的來協力來合作那我們行政院食品安全辦公室主要是負責督導協調相關的部會然後各個全責機關來共同推動跨部會的這些食品安全管理工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2272.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2287.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那在近日工業級的雙陽水加工出廠的這一個案子本院食安辦在10月3號接獲衛福部的通報之後隨即啟動跨部會的應變機制先分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2288.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2310.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
先由惠福部負責涉案業者非法行為的調查還有全案的聯繫然後由農業部來確認屠宰場跟屠體內臟的來源環境部來查核非食品添加物的過氧化氫的使用的情形我們行政院就持續掌握本案整體 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2311.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2336.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
進度然後同時協調聯繫法務部還有高檢署等等確認犯罪事實還有查扣的情形那後續的話我們會在已經有安排這個星期會開這個案子的這一個檢討精進的會議希望來完善突體還有突災場域的衛生安全管理的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2338.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2355.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
機制然後我們同時也呼籲說國內的這一些業者要這個遵守我們食安的相關法令不要以身試法第二個是在食安集合人力的部分我們從110年還有111年因應這個擴大開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2362.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2369.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
美猪美牛还有调整日本食品输入然后分别有同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2370.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2396.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
衛福部的食藥署增聘專案的聘用人力分別是21人 17人那去年113有一個蘇丹紅的事件發生之後行政院也這個強化相關的食安的管理措施然後同時因應這個邊境茶和業務的需要在今年114年有同意合增食藥署預算的原額 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2398.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2426.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是20人然後那所以事實上都很很重視這個食安的相關的人力跟相關的資源另外是在希望要提升地方政府健全食安基礎的建設在去年就核定了這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫總共是10億元這個是用中央特別統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2427.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2448.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
分配稅款是從今年的一一四年到明年的一一五年那這個以上呢是有關於這個人力跟資源部分那這一次的這一個事件發生之後在目前看起來是個案那我們也會很嚴格的去關注有沒有相關其他類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2451.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2468.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
業者業別有可能的情形然後也同時顯示我們五環2.0這裡面有兩個項目一個叫做整合產製銷鏈跟中央地方合作稽查檢驗兩個項目還需要再進一步的再來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2469.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2488.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
來加強那我們會跟相關部會確保食品安全確保食品供應鏈能夠符合衛生安全標準然後這個食安的整個資訊更透明讓國人吃得安心以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2496.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2522.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝 那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始做詢答 做以下宣告第一本會議委員詢答時間為6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面諮詢 請於上一天提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案10點30分截止收件現在請登記第一位委員陳昭詩來做發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2528.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2530.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長來 請施部長委員長部長早部長食安五環 我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2552.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2576.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明它失靈了啦 不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這一次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2578.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2599.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以部長您認不認為同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2600.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2616.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
很快的掌握所有的这个不合格产品的流向以这一次的事件为例我们很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰场是不是合法然后它的下游仓储在哪里然后销售可能到哪里去可以快速的回应 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2616.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2637.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
因為源頭的那個地方對不對我們都想從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠work更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2638.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2664.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那就是暗發了嘛 我的意思是暗發了那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過 那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告 但是我再確認一次全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2666.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2692.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2693.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2719.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2721.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2746.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我們在這個事件之後就擴大市場查核所以全國各縣市衛生局都在市場上進行抽驗還有業者也都去集合到目前為止是檢驗出來的產品我現在聽到你的人力然後vs所有廠商我知道一定是不夠所以你是一定要有一些重點那一般是四年一次其實很久了你說現在有高風險食品清單所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2748.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2760.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率啊等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講嘛審計部的報告有提到當然部分視線那個查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補師他認為你們人力是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2768.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2790.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部告的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾激跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2790.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2805.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2806.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2822.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫得這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2823.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2837.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
對 我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商那請問部長指教署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2846.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2860.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題了因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2862.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2886.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
跟委員報告 因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這個J4的產品J4的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2887.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2911.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他double counting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物它的來源跟出租都要記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2912.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2931.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
只要時評本身時評有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我要再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2932.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2947.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
比少於營業稅籍登記的加速或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記但是卻沒有在這個平台有登記那同一個業者還有兩個以上的這個登錄資料請問蕭叔叔你們怎麼來改善這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2951.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2967.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一理路最後一理路 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2968.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2982.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那把它做成審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發 使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2983.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3010.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那还差那一点我们会继续来努力来折成卫生局最后有一个是沟基刚刚您说的那个是沟基登陆的沟基就是他的税政机关的资料跟我们这边登陆的资料一样上次我请您跟这个家族牵手的意思一样大家都不牵手那以今年来讲沟基出来这71万家里面大概有4万家左右是不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3011.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3034.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的 審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年 仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大而且他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3036.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3046.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那如今在每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁那所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望這個中央跟地方要聯防不要各自這個為政應該馬上這個補這個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3051.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3074.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那部長這個食安重要 那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品有關永豐順利食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉 出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3076.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3090.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
有看過 有看過那報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身 永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3093.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3110.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
雜質藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及這個染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件但是食藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業報告量很高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3113.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3129.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
藥品本身 注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下 委員指出的任何一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年 我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討 我們看到的是過去的檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3131.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3157.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPIC GMP的藥廠底下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是是不是你在實藥署去年2月你還沒有上任去永豐檢查室他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含附說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3157.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3171.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法摸好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實際改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3173.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3197.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那邊我們看到相關的文字 後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的它的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率 PIX GMP 長期你會不會加強它的頻率會繼續的調整那我再簡單問兩個問題 這個部長在裁罰方面 或是署長 除了勒令停業 請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定 法源依據在哪裡 罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎 永豐罰了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3199.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3219.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再揮霍 揮霍給你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能你可不知道你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措您知道嘛那這樣的話那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3224.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3246.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
11億很多患病癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產啊 撤照啊 一個門檻嘛黑名單名單啊或是說他累犯很危險啊而且供應全部 全國大量的這個生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3247.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3268.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
無預警的查核 你告訴他然後你去查 都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核 你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員 建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請法治料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席 謝謝署長 部長謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 署長 請回接下來林月請委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3285.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3305.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
主席麻煩部長來有請部長林委員早部長早部長這次那個黑心豬大腸的事件 政府的應對跟裁罰還算快速可是我想問一個核心的問題也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3306.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3325.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們現在的食安稽查人力到底夠不夠為什麼這樣問 從監察院十年前的報告到去年的蘇丹洪事件再到前天地方政府的說法問題其實實際上是沒有改變像台北市說那因為他們的稽查人員離職率高達四成而且新北市議員換算 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3328.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3341.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
每一位稽查員一年要處理800件案件那表示人力不足大家都是知道事實上是一個很關鍵的問題那今天的標題呢也是人力不足可是從今天的專報內容來看是陷入一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3341.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3360.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
出事之後再補一點點的人力的一個惡性循環所以今天專報部長你認為這是支標還是治本為什麼地方政府說靠E化補人力我也不知道這靠E化補人力是什麼意思衛福部說邊境用的大數據抽檢會越來越精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3361.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3385.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那食藥署也說這次的現在機制已經非常完整可是我非常擔心的是是不是下次出事的時候又說是人力不足為何不五大措施也就是你的食安五大措施都很好可是不論是在加強抽減還是全面的溯源每一項都是需要人力的所以想問請部長明確的回答中央跟地方的食安稽查人力到底夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3386.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3406.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
當然在這個人力的部分我們持續去強化包含人力就是這個多少人還有稽查的方法那個能力我們也一併要去提升所以我們也會辦一些訓練 研習等等的來提升它的效率當然更重要的如何精準管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3407.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3434.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
更重要所以我們現在串聯各種的資訊流做這個大數據分析來精準管理看看能不能夠所以你就覺得這E化就能夠完全解決人力的問題嗎它能夠強化我們的這個管理的能力可是地方長期就是人力不足的問題中央補助獎勵是一回事不能就這樣子擺著不處理那財化法整個地方的分配款增加之後是不是要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3435.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3455.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
地方優先來增加人力來做改善最後也請衛福部是不是提供一份比較完整的說明跟規劃給我們我們按委員的建議非常好我們會持續透過要求這個地方多增編食安人力來提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3458.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3473.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
應該事實上他們要增加人力在我們看就是部長審計部針對於去年的食安議題的審計報告早就點名了中國的食品未經核准不得輸台可是我們再次看到現況是 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3475.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3503.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
網路平台 夜市照樣有人賣還有人打著個人自用免查驗的名義一次又一次的進口大量未經核可的食品根本就變成假自用 真商業那變成我們的食安制度的一個破口根據審計部的報告113年我們就有超過70萬人用這種方式來進口食品而且總量超過350萬公斤而且九成都是食品跟調味料 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3503.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3531.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這樣的數量怎麼可能是個人自用呢你們當時回應審計部說會加強網路稽查阻斷未核准的食品流入也會針對頻繁巨量濫用制度設計對策可是現在到114年年底了像我們問部長說這一年來制度到底有沒有改善具體的作為又是什麼因為我們直至到現在我們辦公室都還是可以透過這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3532.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3534.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
去买 淘宝去买到这些东西所以想问一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3536.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3555.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個委員提的確實是提出了我們現在的痛點就是電商平台的部分就是四面間的查核中國黑心食品或違規的食品那個都在努力都在查那個都有查到現在就是那個電商平台所以我們也在研議應該要來考慮7月16行正有開過一個虛實對應因為如果講虛實對應的話如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3563.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3592.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
實體是你們 食品是你們管的話那就會變成是你們是 所以我們也在思考應該要來提出像這個食安法的修法把電商平台的管理納入就好像上一次大院這邊我們通過的這個淹害防治法一樣把那個電商平台一併納入管理那包含它的這個借街啦或者是在這個電商平台上販賣的業者或平台的提供者都應該克與相當的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3592.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3610.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
部長是不是儘快因為這些東西一直進來事實上是對我們國人事實上是沒有保障的那也請衛福部給我相關的確確執行的數據跟成效委員好這邊要處這邊多一點點小小的補充我們這一電商平台其實上個會期裡面有同樣的議題我們被 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3611.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3629.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
提醒所以我們已經把相關的科與電商平台的義務跟責任他必須要確定這個產品是否違法是否合法等等的落地的你們都有管沒有落地的你都沒辦法管的話我覺得現在就是非落地的是不是要一併管我覺得才有辦法解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3631.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3658.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
來 在我們看就是部長食品安全不能只停留在查禁有害物質更重要的是關乎到孩子的健康從第一次兒權公約的審查到四年前的國際委員再三提醒台灣政府都被要求要重視兒童肥胖的問題你自己國健署也一直再而三的有這樣的宣導可是幾年下來我們的成績單沒有太大變化從第一次國際委員到第二次 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3658.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3677.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
明年要交國家報告第三次了我不知道你們怎麼去回應這件事情因為台灣兒童的肥胖連年列名我們的前段班像男童事實上是第六名那女童是第十二名我們肥胖真的事實上是前段班每四位小學生就有一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3678.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3705.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
體重超重國中生更超過三成的超重那兒童糖尿病的狀況也令人擔憂我們當然知道兒童肥胖牽扯到生活作息運動習慣等面向可是回到你們自己來看國健署一直說你們要減少兒童肥胖拒絕零食遠離高熱量高油高鹽高熱量可是問題是現在市場上都賣這些東西的時候那這就是你們應該負責要負責的主戰場 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3708.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3725.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以台灣的兒童的健康警報早就響起部長你怎麼去看現在食品安全的政策跟兒童肥胖問題的關聯性政府到底有沒有要準備去解決這個長年沒有解決的危機確實委員提出是一個非常重要的一點就是肥胖是 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3726.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3743.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
未來就是孩子的時候的肥胖跟未來他的代謝症候群或相關三高是有關聯性的所以這個兒童肥胖的問題我們會積極的納入在我們健康台灣這個下面另外一個就是營養 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3744.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3772.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
从小如何建立这个正确的营养观念还有这个运动这两个可能要一起来来并进才有办法我们就来看下一个就是说部长这是大概都是全球要面对到的一个挑战联合国已经提醒说食品产业以利润为导向我们的饮食环境对孩子并不友善所以你刚刚讲说你们接下来会去努力在健康台湾这边可是超加工的食品高糖高脂高盐低营养 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3773.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3793.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
被證實跟兒少肥胖糖尿病注意力發展問題都高度相關對孕婦跟胎兒也有長期的影響這是公共衛生的一個警訊日韓歐盟都用法規限制食品廣告跟規範校園周邊而且要求食品要更清楚標示以外也要更易懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3794.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3814.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那WHO在2016年早就建議說要課增我們的糖稅韓國也正在討論加稅並用稅制來誘導我們的健康的選擇那所以想問部長台灣會跟進嗎因為除了無糖飲料最近那個降稅那我們是否考慮用稅制來改善兒童的食品環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3815.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3833.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
當然這個委員提到的是這個可能有些國家在實施的糖稅或者是糖捐這種健康捐的概念不過我們第一步先從這個簡明標示讓大家容易這個消費者容易懂我們現在的標示有的時候比較專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3836.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3853.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
從專業的角度是比較專業一點但是讓消費者來講不容易明白到底這個含量這個成分是OK不OK是健康不健康那部長食品安全衛生管理法會不會增訂條文要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3854.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3873.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
超加工食品額外標示簡明的你剛剛講你們會開始做分級標示那會再入法去要求嗎那部長也從餓少的肥胖議題的角度上你如何看待我們的營養及健康飲食促進法上路一年了成效如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3877.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3883.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
確實剛上路我們目前所做的事情是先去擴大營養教育營養的認知的提升當然對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3893.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3906.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
國人的這個重視我想還有一些需要在我們更努力的地方確實所以那衛福部有沒有研究在台灣的兒少飲食習慣研究超加工食品對兒童跟孕婦的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3907.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3926.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有做這方面的嗎目前據我的了解是還沒有這方面的研究我們也期待你說對兒少跟家長的教育宣導跟廣告的管制也要拜託你們持續加強更積極讓家長也能夠去了解那這些政策我們也期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3926.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3951.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
你們應該讓兒少一起共同來參與因為也讓他們對於我們的政府的一些政策能夠了解那接下來是不是請衛福部也把這些完整的一個因應政策跟法規再提供給我們我們未來會讓國健署跟食藥署一起來合作提升這個部分那部長最後一個問題這個非常的重要雖然我們的召委已經站起來我們還是花一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3952.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3974.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
剛才我們談到的兒童參與這是兒權公約的最核心的精神也是為父母主責的業務那十年來我們都有不少進步像行政院兒委會都有兒少參與也是全世界絕無僅有的成果可是這幾年我們的制度都有沒有偏離初衷像台中最近發生的就兒少代表這件事情為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3975.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3999.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
去年台中市政府二月就公告兒少代表參與的規則跟六月完成遴選那兒少也收到通知了因為他們會前一年然後呢遴選進來之後開始賠例到今年就會開始去執行可是今年一月市府卻片面修改規則四月突然通知這些兒少說你們不能參加政府的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3999.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4024.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你去年已經是通知他說你已經是入企了結果今年說你不能進來還宣稱說這是依照中央的規範是你們中央規範跟兒權公約整個過程完全沒有跟兒少討論也沒有任何事前說明所以孩子手中的這個入企通知一夕之間變成是廢紙我想問部長台中市政府這種依照兒少 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4026.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4051.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
說依照中央的兒少權法的規範請問中央規範允許這樣的言而無信嗎我們會進一步的了解這個兒權法因為他們有這個設置要點所以兒權會怎麼去運作的程序我們會進一步了解同時會要求台中市政府在下一次我們的兒權 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4054.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4077.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那個部裡面有一個兒少的福利與權益推動小組的會來做一個專案的報告所以我不只是要問這件事而是整個整體的體制度所以今天我只是先邀請部長一定要對這件事情表態不能放任地方政府去扭曲兒權公約部長你是否願意承諾全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4078.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4106.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
你政府要邀请儿少出来要做公共参与却用这种方法来对待他们那我接着也会办一场儿少参与权的公听会也希望卫福部能够派组织单位能够来出席和民间跟儿少一起对话我们非常的支持要落实这个CRC的精神让这个儿少能够真正的参与各项的儿童相关的政策的制定过程 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4106.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4122.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以部長你可不可以先全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制好 我們來看一下各縣市政府的規定好 謝謝接下來請陳秦威委員來做選擇主席謝謝 我想請石部長來 請部長曾院長長 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4135.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4163.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
部長好 部長您是親子友善兒少保護法還有促進我們國家生育率的大家長但是您知道從9月22號開始高鐵全面上路 寧靜車廂的措施之後現在網路上有帶著家長的帶著小孩 家長帶著小孩還有反對這些小孩發出聲音的人已經在網路上大戰這件事情您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4165.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4192.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我最近有聽說啦 最近有聽說我坐高鐵的時候也有看到它現在都有個牌子啦就是寧靜車等一下我會提供您一些截圖我先舉一些國外的案例國外呢 他們是比如說為了促進生育率一家四口 一家五口去旅行是坐國籍的航空或者是火車或者是他們一家去遊樂園是給予很多折扣的但是反觀我們台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4193.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4214.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我是很希望你可以拿出魄力來是不是可以跟交通部 高鐵或者是國籍的航空等等去談如何可以兼顧親子友善 兼顧生育率然後又不至於讓現在網路上炒成一團那您也需要出來主持空道啦我舉幾個案例讓您聽聽看 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4217.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4233.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
比如說現在高鐵他們會說如果說有發現這個小朋友可能有發出一些聲音干擾到其他的乘客他們會去協助安撫並且給予乖乖你覺得你贊成這樣子的做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4236.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4260.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個不夠專業的做法你說為什麼這個應該要先瞭解協助瞭解這個孩子會哭鬧因為他的表達比較小的孩子他的表達不容易所以常常以哭鬧的方式來表達所以應該先去瞭解這個孩子真正會哭鬧的原因什麼來解決問題不是隨便給一個零食 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4261.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4278.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
是 高鐵的同仁如果是給予一些安撫那再加上給予餅乾等等請問你覺得這一組父母加上小孩會不會有可能被標籤化反而讓這個車廂其他乘客的人發現就是這些人在吵所以監務人員過來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4281.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4296.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
會不會 會不會被標籤化有這個可能性但是如果有孩子不斷的哭鬧我們還是應該主動的去關心我想這個那我再舉第二個例子這個都是實際發生的案例有一個戴大寶跟二寶的媽媽她因為被舉牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4300.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4326.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
要求降低音量所以勸導說你可以帶寶寶到車廂跟車廂中間的走道去安撫這件事情我本人也做過我有三個那三個都這樣子做過結果呢他只能把大寶放在座位上帶著二寶到車廂中間去安撫我想問他讓大寶單獨留在車廂被迫單獨留在車廂是不是違反了兒少保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4327.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4353.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
是不是这样的处理方式并不恰当那您有什么建议吗我还是那个我们整个车厢维持车厢的安宁对于多数的乘客是有好处这个我们不反对但是对于按照我们儿少福利法的规定在交通方面还是要对亲子友善好 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4354.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4376.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這就是我一再強調的我們跟其他國家差很多其他國家他也許會在一些觀光的網站上去特別註明哪些餐廳親子友善推薦大家去那他們的車廂有些國家是採取部分車廂寧靜但其他車廂他不會特別標註親子友善可是他也不會那麼在意營量 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4378.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4391.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
請問你大概在什麼時間內可以去找到高鐵或是交通部做這樣子的溝通可以給大家滿多家長在關心這個議題請問你大概多久以內可以去做這個協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4393.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4413.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我們在9月2號其實已經發函去了解了請這個交通部去督導這個高鐵公司因為高鐵公司的這個主管機關是交通部所以我們也請了交通部去督導那麼我們會進一步去追蹤這個最後結果大概多久以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4413.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4427.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
因為現在每天他們都在網路上炒翻天這個您知道嗎一個月內嗎一個月內我希望你跟交通部可以共擬出一個稍微彈性的做法不要再引起兩方之間的互相仇視好嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4431.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4453.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
好下一個是您接受了採訪我知道你講了很多很多的關於醫療方面的改革但我今天稍微講兩點就好了有一點是您提到在醫療飽和區也就是蛋黃區健保診所太多的地方就不給開了請自行前往醫療資源不足的地方開立診所 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4453.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4477.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好現在有許多醫師可能比較多是新出來的醫師他會說所以你是請我們回家吃自己嗎因為在這個蛋黃區都會區為什麼會這樣做我跟你講他們的心聲很多人講啊他說我要選擇在哪邊職業當然除了薪資以外我還要考慮我配偶的工作對吧我還要考慮小孩就學的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4478.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4503.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
如果他有長輩要就近照顧還有長輩要照顧那這些地方變成蛋黃區是因為很多原因造成的而不是說他特意去把這些地方列為他的首選所以我想要問你可不可以變更你的做法你要不要去針對醫療資源不足的地方給予更多的誘因而讓各種不同世代的醫師都願意去那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4505.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4520.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個跟委員說明按照我們的醫師法的規定或醫療法的規定醫師當然有他的職業自由他可以在任何一個地方只要他取得了合格的醫師執照他都可以開業 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4521.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4540.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
但是健保有它的特約規定那麼針對醫療資源應該要納入它健保特約的時候的考量因為健保的資源是有限的所以有一些不是健保特約的診所但是如果是要健保特約的診所健保必須考慮到它所 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4541.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4570.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
提供服務的可進性跟資源的平衡性就好像我們現在在總額之下在分配各個縣市或者是各個區域的總額也是有它的分配的考量我剛剛已經跟你講得很清楚了他會選擇這個地方他當然也想兼顧你所謂的醫療資源等等的但他還有其他考慮的面向那你現在的意思就是說這一區已經很多人來了你就不要再來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4571.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4590.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那是先到先贏的概念所以在這個制度之下我們會有折約特優的概念而不是所有的人就是你要特約就一直特約一直特約我們在醫學生的部分是有管制的就是總人數這個不是一個完全自由的市場所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4591.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4612.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
提供服務的時候也應該要有所邏輯而不是說就完全是放任性的那這樣前面加強管制出口端進口端供應端是管制的結果到後來執行業務的時候卻自由的放任那這樣反而造成另外一種不公 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4613.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4639.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我是給你一個建議請部長考量一下是不是願意到醫療資源不足的地方你給予更多的誘因而不是去限制他們不准去已經飽和的地方這個是大家現在很反彈的當然跟委員說明要解決這個醫療資源不足地區還有很多的方式這個也不是單單的一個不過這個是希望能夠讓醫療資源的分布也能夠更平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4641.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4667.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
讓這個多少人口多少醫師因為我們所有的醫學生也是按照這樣在管制所以要按照當地多少人口需要多少醫師來特約這個才是符合我們健保的精神這邊有兩件事情我希望一個月看可不可以給予可行性評估第二件事情也是很多人在意的就是說現在在醫院職業的醫師每一筆錢他都必須要繳稅勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4670.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4685.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
適用加班費免稅可是你也知道非常多主治医師以上層級的並不是用勞基法所以工時比人家長很多可是沒有免稅的比例原則那亞東醫院院長最近就有出來講了很長一段的話大概跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4686.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4713.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
他說最具醫療韌性也就是最具戰時韌性的這群人反而是近年來流失最快的其中包括武大科 包括急重症包括急診等等的那這些人才困難的他就是在夜間 假日值班最多的那除了提高他的健保點值以外因為提高以後 他工作很辛苦但在最後又繳稅了 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4714.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4725.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以他必須要雙重雙軌之下你有辦法留住這些人第一個就是額外津貼第二個就是他的夜間他的假日值班他的這些業務應該要免稅請問以上兩點就是關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4731.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4747.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
則量能特約還有這個免稅跟津貼雙軌制來拯救這些人才流失最多的這顆你有沒有辦法一個月內給予可行性評估因為你今年已經編了過兆的健保預算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4749.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4773.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個醫師的稅負公平性的問題我之前就已經注意到這個事情因為目前在醫院工作者裡面只有醫師還沒有納入勞基法其餘都是已經適用勞基法而適用勞基法人員裡面他有一個加班費是適用所得稅法免稅規定但是因為勞基法有他的加班時數的上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4773.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4802.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以在那个额度内呢其实是已经符合免税目前就已经在执行了倒是因为医师他没有适用这个劳基法的关系再加上医疗的特性跟这个病人的需要所以他的加班时间往往呢是高于这个劳基法所规定的这个加班的上限所以在这个现实的情形之下我们一直在努力的在沟通你要跟谁沟通劳动部财政部你要 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4803.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4817.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
这个税负的主管机关是财政部所以你希望往院长讲的这个方向前进就是要让这个叫做税负公平它一样是因为延长工作时间那么所得到的这一些收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4818.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4834.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
就是所謂的加班費所以一個月內這兩點我們等一下送個書面可不可以請你給我們可行性的評估這個書面是沒有問題的那只是說在推動的過程當中也需要委員來給我們協助因為這個還有跟財政部之間的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4835.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4857.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好第三個我們要問的問題是最近我們有一個好運3方案當然右邊這邊我就先不多說了右邊大家有知道說原來10萬塊講得很好聽結果不同級別的保險他只是去補差額所以如果是比如說勞保的他幾乎差額只有一點點他並不是這麼的有感但 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4858.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4879.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
考量問到許多專家他們都覺得每個月的津貼才是真正可以促進生育率的方式而不是這種單次一次性的那之前陳時中政委他在其他的媒體採訪裡面他自己都講喔他說一個月他覺得要拿到三萬塊才算是有感的補貼才願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4881.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4907.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這個促進生育啊等等的當我們去試算每一個縣市就算是最好最好的狀況大概都沒有到2萬那我們看一下這個表看一下這個表現在是0到6歲的嬰幼兒每月主要的開銷包括尿布啊 副食品或是你自己在家帶托育等等如果你是自己帶或是準公共比較難抽到的比較偏向2萬但如果是送到托育可能會偏向4萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4909.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4930.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
但是你現在的育嬰育兒津貼已經非常久沒有調整了第一名子女每個月五千第二名每個月六千第三名每個月七千你有沒有考慮把它調高主席快結束來響應陳時中政委所說的家總至少要折合三萬塊民眾才會有感 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4932.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4951.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
跟委員說明當然這一個擴大生育補助方案就是讓大家的這個補助讓他拉齊不會因為你的身份不同得到的最後的那個補助不同所以把公保 勞保 國保等等的保險甚至都沒有保的也都把它拉在一起所以這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4952.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4981.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
第一步而已那自己为了减轻年轻这个父母对于这个育儿上的压力当然有育儿津贴刚刚您提到的这样但是我们也另外有这个准托育跟这个公托跟准公托的补助那个我记得如果是准公托的话也到一万三到一万五就是看你的胎次会逐步的增加我知道但是我刚就有讲有些人他是并没有用到托育的嘛嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4982.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5005.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
这个十万块我们才发现说原来很多人是没有劳保的这个下去我们才发现为什么我们要去补是真的很多人没有劳保所以他不一定会有用到托育因为托育你就只能选一个嘛你的育儿津贴跟托育他就只能选择一个嘛所以我讲的是这个族群的人你有没有办法协助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5006.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5022.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
您说的是完全没有完全没有参加任何保险我讲的是他可能没有用到托育的那就是育儿津贴对一个是托育补助一个是育儿津贴这二则一您的意思是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5023.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5048.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
沒有托育的就是育兒津貼的部分就是他必須申請育兒津貼的這部分你有沒有考慮再把它往上提育兒津貼的部分再增加的意思是我們來研究看看在政府的財政的能力下因為現在因為這個財法法的關係中央的統籌分配管也受到影響所以我們再來評估看看那我們再跟你做報告謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5053.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5071.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
接下來請林淑穎委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們石部長來 請部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5078.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5098.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
部長 今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市 桃園市 高雄市 屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬 已經開出去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5099.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5122.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那算是很重的罚处分应该是历年来算是最重的历年来最重的整个状况我们看到几个新闻稿第一个是10月3号露出的整个新闻露出第一时间是屏东地方检察署的新闻稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5123.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5142.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5143.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5167.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5168.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5191.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調公務員報告因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的所以等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5192.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5205.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5214.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5224.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
跟委員報告因為這個目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有這個偵查寶弟你不要再說一句了這個案件據我所知6月的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5233.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5261.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5262.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5274.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5278.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5290.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說它是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰它五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5306.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5328.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已所以我們內部有要求檢討整個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5333.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5343.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜管單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5347.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5374.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5375.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5397.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤了解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶部的說明結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5398.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5425.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權後來發現有這個司法權進入這個這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5427.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5442.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
初步調查就是行政調查嘛行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5443.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5459.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5462.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5472.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5474.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5496.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5497.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5508.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚 吃下肚誰要負責 誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在 署長你講了大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5518.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5537.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律 食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長 署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5539.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5565.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保七總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5566.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5587.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的重要案件裡面能夠主長 我們食安法第41條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5590.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5610.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水 雙氧水在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5612.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5635.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
然後你們說7月底檢調就列案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去 怕證據被消失那我們 我跟你說實案法大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5636.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5661.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5661.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5668.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
你們在這裡 照書上說的交給司法單位 檢警單位比較保全 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5670.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5695.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5696.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5714.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量 自行決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5715.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5743.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
全責不分 你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失 制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查不調查有沒有調查部長剛才說的你們都不知道 頂頭都不知道那這樣子有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5744.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5767.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5769.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5796.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5797.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5821.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你們在這裡回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處 不是食安五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5822.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5848.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
沒有 完全都沒有 預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉 到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡 你們是連有鬼都不抓 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5851.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5866.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5869.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5890.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我因為有問 這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件 蘇丹紅事件 所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5891.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5917.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5918.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5933.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5934.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5948.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了 揭弊了食藥署 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5950.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5969.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5970.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5996.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
让无辜的人民继续吃更多部长你觉得这样合理吗你自己可以接受吗这个我跟委员一样在这个事情处理过程当中我已经要求内部要先提检讨报告那么包含接受检举之后的所有的SOP的检讨还有内部通报流程的检讨那么以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5997.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6022.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6023.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6039.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6040.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6055.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
今天黑心的大長案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議 尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6056.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6072.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
食藥署很常以偵查不公開唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己未善盡行政監督之責 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6073.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6087.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以我们今天食安的问题不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6088.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6117.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以如果這種狀況大概有鬼就不抓了所以這不僅是行政失責還可能構成瀆職和洩密的刑責在這種狀況裡面部長我在這裡要求這個內部內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人瀆職有沒有人要被追究責任行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6118.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6136.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要這樣黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成制度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6137.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6150.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6154.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6173.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
就有了然後你剛才報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6174.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6202.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
然後再來諮詢 言有上4月的諮詢 言有在而 還不到半年 接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了 中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉 這樣不對的 行政究責 制度改善好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒部長署長 今天會排這個專案報告一定是有特殊的原因謝謝 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6205.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6217.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
來接下來請王育民委員來做選擇好謝謝主席我們有請部長來請部長王議員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6222.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6244.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
部長好 部長這個黑心大腸的案件事實上讓民眾非常的恐慌因為它涉及到我們的國民小吃大腸麵線連知名達州麵線通通都中標而且它的量坦白講是蠻大的所以剛剛提到了如果6月你們就接到檢舉你們什麼時候才下架封城 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6246.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6259.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
跟委員報告當然這個事件上的處理的速度應該要更快啦那我們在這個封存是從10月3號開始進行這個封存跟下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6259.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6275.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎如果六月檢舉 十月才下架封存整整四個月的時間有多少無辜的台灣老百姓吃下了這個泡有工業用的漂白水的大腸 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6277.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6299.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這個涉及到國人食安第一個我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架封存的動作按照處理食安的標準跟原則如果6月份這個檢舉這麼的確切而且有直指工業用的漂白水的話從食藥署你們到現場直接就把大腸拿出來檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6301.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6320.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
也很快就會發現這需要減掉嗎你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出他是不是含有工業級的漂白水不是嗎為什麼沒有做其實我們當場去搜索的時候去驗的時候就驗過了所以其實是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6321.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6345.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
雙氧水的殘留6月份沒有驗到不是6月份我們後來去搜索10月1號的時候10月1號也沒有驗到沒有驗到但是它的標示裡面直接寫是所謂的工業用的雙氧水這就明顯違反了食安法裡面的食用級的雙氧水雙氧水在食用級裡面在我們的食品添加物叫做殺菌劑它是可用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6345.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6369.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
但是他用的 他不能用在食品啊 這個署長我們要聽這部分的解釋第一個我要問的就是六月份的檢舉信函 他有沒有直指他是使用工業用的漂白水然後添加在這個大廠裡面 有沒有有或沒有 他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用 但是呢我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6370.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6383.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6383.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6403.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這邊跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就是協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6405.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6421.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是市政不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6422.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6441.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6441.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6469.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6471.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6496.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
請問委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國 會不會通風報信會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級 工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧的 純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6499.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6525.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
明知顾犯做了这件事情我们不允许但他可能潜在的风险我相信我们不愿意他存在但是他对于查到这样子黑心的业者神之余法更重于其他的一切所以我有这样子的考量之下做了这样子的一个裁量你刚刚的这样的说法但是你为求证据的保全你相信保七总队你前前后后浪费了四个月的时间 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6526.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6554.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6555.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6578.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6579.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6607.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊 你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查 查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦 部長這件事情其實部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這個處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6608.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6628.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6629.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6655.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
即使因为我们介入之后而没有办法让检调收集到足够的证据而没有办法绳之以法但是我们至少保障了国人的安全这个才是最重要我觉得你的优先顺序一定要调整回来你是卫福部我们的食安法就是保障国人的食安而不是有力检调去侦办这两者如果必须取舍的时候当然是食安第一优先 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6656.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6684.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6685.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6705.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導 先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這一種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開發 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6706.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6723.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
該怎麼罰就要怎麼罰你們現在的罰款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我們整個食品業我們就是不能讓劣幣進來發現劣幣就是驅逐我們要確保我們的食安就是這樣我們獎勵優良的 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6724.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6744.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6745.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6762.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
就是食品業者自主管理的機制 坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料 半成品 成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6763.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6777.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
就是第七條當時就是一個希望業者可以自律的條款但是食安法已經通過這麼多年了我要問的是如果他是不良業者他從來沒有針對他的原料搬成品成品在做檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6779.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6797.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
你市交署會知道嗎你衛福不知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6800.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6817.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
針對業者自主管理機制第七條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6819.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6845.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6846.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6872.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好 我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個也是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品它要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6873.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6878.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6880.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6903.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個就是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6908.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6923.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6924.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6948.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
但是它原廠藥都是過了專利期所以它都有其他的學名藥所以它考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在它專利期內它是獨大所以它藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥就要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降它最後就會轉移它的生產線所以像這個百優解 千優解都是這樣考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6948.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6971.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
他是不再製造了他就因為學名要太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6972.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6992.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6993.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7008.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那那個是瑞士的藥廠他停產但是我們就找到那個日本的一個藥廠他就是學名藥所以未來就會以這個來做取代所以這個只要能夠提早通報那大概我們都可以處理得來不會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7008.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7036.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段時間所以我希望這一個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7038.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7055.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
謝謝王委員 謝謝部長委員會在這邊宣告 等一下請等一下邱委員政經懸打結束之後我們去10分鐘接下來請邱政經委員來做懸打主席好 我們請部長來 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7059.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7077.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
介委員好 部長好我看好幾個委員都非常重視這個案子那最近這起百味十品漂白豬大腸的案件你開罰了五千四百萬那民眾吃進去的可能是工業用雙氧水那我想請問一下這樣的案子算不算重大的死案事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7078.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7103.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
跟委員報告這個目前在當然這個是我們不允許雖然說這個雙氧水算不算重大你只要回答是不是就好了以目前我們這個查驗到因為這個使用的普遍性很廣所以是大還是不大這個是等於日常的這個大還是不大嘛所以我們很重視這件事情所以又啟動所有的專案那目前查起來呢那麼目前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7105.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7133.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
在市面上的食品都還是符合這個大腸我問你它算不算重大的這個食安案件你講那麼多我們很重視這個案子但是目前來講不算大就對了 這還不算大所有的食安都是重大這個是人民的健康這麼嚴重的事情怎麼會不大呢所有的食安我們來看都是一樣大為什麼我們今天在專報裡面一個字都沒看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7134.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7153.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
您的意思是你今天的兩份專報食安辦這份報告雖然有寫跟沒寫差不多但是他們至少還有提那衛福部是一個字都沒有現在是工業用的化學品跑進食物裡面民眾吃下去會危害身體健康你們不用跟民眾說清楚嗎還是財閥單開完就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7155.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7167.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
沒有 所有的食安事件我們都是認為都是一樣的重大為什麼這裡面沒有為什麼沒有寫啦為什麼沒有說明呢沒有輕重之分所有的食安事件我問你有沒有說明你跟我講輕重幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7169.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7186.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
就沒有行走所有的實案所以都不用寫就對了你不用跟國會交代你不用跟人民交代啊這麼嚴重的事情你不用跟國會交代嗎不用跟立法委員交代嗎我們是民意代表耶一定要跟委員報告對啊 你為什麼裡面不說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7188.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7210.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們都是看媒體啊看其他東西來的我們都是一樣的重大沒有什麼輕重之分行政程序法裡面明確規定司法偵查中的案件若涉及公共利益或重大食安風險主管機關仍可適度的公開這個相關的資訊你不要告訴我剛剛有講說不要說因為剪掉介入之後然後你就把這事情蓋牌都不講對不對那這麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7213.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7235.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這麼重大的事情怎麼不算是食安的重大風險呢還是你覺得網上有公佈大概然後記者有問再回答就算交代了沒有這個跟委員報告我們就是認為他很重大所以呢在檢調雖然還在偵查當中但是我們就公佈了流向然後他到哪個地方去我們就公佈了有很多問題啊你那個話太多了而且講的都不是我要問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7235.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7244.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那今天兩份報告在補強食安稽查人力的部分理論上數字應該是要一致的嘛但是食安辦寫報告報告裡面寫說本願於114年同意合爭食藥署預算員額大概20名 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7253.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7268.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那衛福部說於2月27號霍仁市總署同意合爭邊境查驗預算員24名所以我要問一下這是以誰的為準還是你們各講一半還是合起來加起來是44人 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7270.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7294.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我來做個說明 跟委員說明因為這個時額20人 4人是要就現有的去調整的20還是24 總共是44就對了不是 總共是20人從院來看新增的是20人 4人是工作內容去調整的所以他是24人就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7296.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7323.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
20人 新增的20人那另外的4人是希望食藥署就現有工作的內容去調配他需要24嘛我們合20但是我們只能夠所以你們還是新增20人就對了那你們兩份報告隔一天送進來結果連這個基本人數這個看都看不太懂那我想這個光這麼簡單的事情我們都可以寫得不太一樣我想問一下這些人力何時到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7326.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7352.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們現在24個人力的和目前就是積極在爭取現在在已經陸陸續續都已經進入我們的北區的那加入之後我們的食安就可以安心了嗎我們針對上面的一些人力我們跟地方其實共同因為我看到每一次食安的事情發生的時候我們都先檢討人力啦 對不對所以我們認為只要把人人事人員安排好就可以解決食安的問題是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7354.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7363.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
跟委員說明當然不全然只是人力的問題還有包含我們制度上的檢討還有運用一些科技的執法方式這個都要一併做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7364.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7391.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好 我現在再講回到這個今天的問題根據目前的資料我們立泰肉店從6月份跟百威食品進豬大腸那目前資訊是在8、9月間百威食品涉嫌用低價購買的有問題的豬大腸再用工業用漂白水去去味那10月2號食藥署接貨通報然後會同檢調去搜查所以這件事是民眾檢舉才發現的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7393.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7405.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
對 這一個案子是民眾檢舉的好 那我今天要講就是說我們很多事情都要靠民眾檢舉那就表示我們食安五環裡面的前四環都失效了那強化源頭沒做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7406.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7435.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
重建生產沒落實加強茶葉沒抓到加重責任等檢舉花幾百億打造的食安五環結果還是要靠民眾來檢舉第五環是靠全民監督你們應該改成全民救援吧跟委員報告其實前幾環它有它的角色因為它的整個登錄系統的完備那麼一方面讓業者不敢亂蠢動因為這個上下可以勾擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7436.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7449.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那第二個呢我們從這個大數據裡面也可以發現及時的發現一些高風險然後進行中央跟地方的聯合稽查它還是有它的功能可是還是會有像這樣的漏網我請問一下食安辦我們的許主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7452.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7470.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你是行政院層級的負責跨部會的統整的單位屏東這次百味食品漂白豬大腸農業部說土體都有合格證明但檢方卻查到便便的豬大腸被漂白後販售那請問到底這是哪個地方出錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7472.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7500.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
應該這樣來是農業部誤判合格土地還是那些病變豬場根本就不是從合法屠宰場出來的他不是一個病變的情況那我讓我講一下從頭農業部在合法的屠宰場經過獸醫師的檢查之後屠宰出來出場的都是一個合法的並不是說從病死的然後從場外進來的所以在這一案裡面他的這個豬場的來源是正常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7500.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7509.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那因為豬腸它算是一種排內障裡面是很髒的它可能還有糞便還有別的所以要經過清洗之後那為什麼檢方會這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7512.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7539.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
檢方為什麼會這樣講檢方為什麼會這樣講他可能有一點誤會因為這裡面那個腸子內外一開始的時候是要經過一個各種很多次的去清洗的然後還有味道所以雙氧水很可能是用來除味道的這個措施所以整個它過程是這樣子那審計部報告講得很清楚政府為了控管化學物質的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7540.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7549.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個流向從105年開始建立化學園那到113年8月底你們有沒有跟勞動部的化學品報備平台這個比對過 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7551.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7573.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有沒有比對過委員好 這邊跟委員做進一步的說明針對我們現在化學署裡面建置的所謂跨部會化學物質的資訊平台食藥署這邊我們有化學物質流向鏈接跨部會的資訊系統跟化學雲選定化學物質我們做了串接所以我們化學雲的部分選擇了19項化學物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7575.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7602.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
另外跟食品業者可疑的部分有62這個漂白水算嗎 有沒有含在裡面漂白水 雙氧水它用途極廣所以原先我們從來沒有發生過這樣子的議題所以它沒有被列入所謂的化學那未來會不會列入我想這部分我們在積極在研議當中是否 因為它牽涉的因為它在購買 我這樣講它今天是用我們這一家公司叫什麼百威它是用百威食品去 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7604.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7605.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
購買這個工業用漂白水嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7607.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7634.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
應該是 他是用他的這個有確定是嗎那我們這樣 我在這邊建議就是說當他有這種 他是食品公司他買這種東西 買工業用漂白水的時候這個時候我們的系統就要自動示警就要示警 然後讓我們的人員去查這個能夠注意到有這樣的事情是不是他買這麼大量 他到底用在哪裡是不是要進一步的瞭解我想這個我希望你們繼續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7635.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7655.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
不要說我們食安論文員報告就是說我們跟這個環境部那個化學雲有合作的關係那因為這個雙氧水等於是第一次發現這個狀況所以我們會考慮把它列入在我們的風險其實很多東西很多食物我認為很多人都會之前也聽到很多用漂白水洗過的吧對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7656.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7671.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
他為了賣一下 漂白鹹是可以用的只是不能夠用工業級的他明明知道不可用才用是錯在這裡對所以我想他所以你工業用的漂白鹹本來就要管控嘛不是嗎對 對不對食品級的我們都有積極的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7672.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7695.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好啦 最後我這樣講啦 因為時間的關係我要求這個執行是你們食藥署跟地方稽查人員那第一請食安辦在一個月內提出跨部會整合這個時程表現在三個系統各做各 就算有串聯啦我希望你們把一些該列入的都把它列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7696.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7719.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
如果讓我們這個稽查人員在這個稽查的時候能夠直接跳出警示不要全部都人工在核對那第二請你們建立預警的機制就是說剛剛我們講了就是說這些東西只要跑到這個食品鏈裡面我希望你們自動把它這個警示出來讓我們底下人好做事好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7723.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7727.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好 我們休息文中啦這個蘇昭偉跟這個黃昭偉兩個虎視眈眈對著我所以沒辦法 快點 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7784.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7789.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
還是要符合我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8367.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8383.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好 請趕快就座 那個兩個召委虎視眈眈 一直在看著你們好 我們請蘇清雪召委來做選答 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8392.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8416.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
謝謝 謝謝主席我們讓部長休息啦我們食藥署姜署長來 有請姜署長還有我們食安辦的許主任還有我們那個健保署的陳署長陳署長 你三個可以到不然你會被我們拜國總執行我帶來好好幫忙好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8419.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8441.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
為了這個大廠這個事情 我昨天前天我在屏東我爸爸去屏東拍賣場 屠宰場還有在台地的 還有在地霸的 我都去問我跟你講 我們行政院你剛剛講跟邱成金的對話 我也聽了 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8443.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8472.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我覺得這個問題好像不是食藥署的事這個問題是受益受益的事受益就是受益師全聯會跟中央續產會有派到各個所有的屠宰場有受益的這一次的這個大廠應該不是進口的本土的是我們台灣的你看這個就是大廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8474.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8498.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
看一看 這是這個現在你的痘痘因為痘痘有可能破壞我說這是很實際的 很到位的我是到現場的痘痘有破壞看起來外表還好但是裡面有生病就好像人一樣你的痘痘如果瘀起來會怎麼樣受醫師是不能放行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8499.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8524.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他就要跟我說 這裡不行 他就要上去化製廠就等於像死的蝶 要去化製煮的蔥 變成起料 還是變成肥料他這個不放心像平常有三個屠宰線就是要三個授意師今天農委會的人沒有來農業部的人沒有來 要來的話我就把他頂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8526.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8551.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
你這個秀姨去那裡有檢索崗位嗎有確實去跟她看嗎還是說有人有可能有命沒有人去那裡那這樣就很糟糕了喔是所以她要不要放行她應不應該放行我們是這一這個階段那這個是出問題是出在這個出在這裡喔 出在這裡這裡就出問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8553.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8579.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
現在他回去已經歐了還是說賣了他就賣了嘛回去一天很累 流很多很多很多現在你再來就是食藥署獵雞合園獵雞合園在哪個地方是在哪個你的角色是從哪裡開始署長你怎麼知道我看你也知道了你回答好你回答我來代替你報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8581.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8607.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我們跨部會的分工 假如這個屠宰線在這個線 在這個房間裡現在相片這個相片裡面的屠宰線都是在農方 就是獸醫師要確保之後這一個房間裡面都完成但是假如出了這個房間特別是去分切 去處理之後假如是由另一個業者食品的業者的時候那個時候就會輪到食藥署 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8609.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8626.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我跟你講 屏東縣現在像嘉義鄉 像泰安 石屏他們現在在那裡在拍賣場 我也有去拍賣場我也在那裡吃雞 他們在那邊拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一� |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8636.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8662.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
有的一天在殺七八百頭像太安 像嘉義鄉的話他一天也是兩三百頭在殺四射的其他的都在屏東的屠宰場我現在要問你的就是說你這個事情要去怪時部長怪江署長不對的因為是前面那個環節出事了他現在是在亡羊補牢在騎車 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8663.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8687.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
你現在這個衆議有盡量他的責任嗎我們要解釋 釐清責任就這樣嘛你現在衆議是屬於公部門的人還是中央市長會名聘的還是受益司派來派On call的 白班的到底是 這段是出事的要追究 追究這裡的人不是追究江署長江署長沒過位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8691.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8717.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
就我所知道這個都是由中央續產會統一去約聘然後獸醫師在裡面去管理但是也是由房檢署農業部房檢署他有一個獸醫師的管理系統這個要在這個上面去回報的委員剛剛所說的就是說獸醫師是不是有盡責在做對我們來講的時候就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8718.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8741.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
相信第一線的獸醫師很類似我們在看醫生一樣他的判斷那通常我所知道啦很嚴重的不會讓他進來但是常常有一些因為豬還活著然後有的時候不一定看得出來說他是因為生病才變黑或怎麼樣或者是說他是已經在屠宰的時候腸胃道破掉怎麼樣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8743.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8765.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
包括那些私人屠宰場他們抬高之後 業內賬也是交給這個公司最高的百貨 百貨商會去處理他們自己也沒有什麼要處理的那些賬都高高處理所以這個公司像這個百貨它的公司設在台北60%在台北 我經常說物量在屏東然後社會成本在屏東 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8766.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8775.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我看到就很麻煩很囂張就去啊這家的夫婦 家裡夫婦都給你頂起來我要問時事部長 他說頂起來這家的書店都委託他處理喔那你只要說你的角色是從哪裡開始你的角色從哪裡開始 講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8791.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8816.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
你是在菜市場還是在酒店還是在那個我們其實是屠宰場那個房間出去之後分切開始就歸食藥署裡面的來做管理那他 我就問說他那個用漂白水是在屠宰場裡面漂白還是拿到工廠去漂白他拿到後面的貨櫃屋裡面那非常高地監視底下的貨櫃屋我們來拍個考察好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8817.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8836.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
就真的很到位的去看在後面的貨櫃小房間就開幹了 是不是這樣是這很嚴肅的問題喔是拉到他的工廠那拉到他的工廠去處理的時候有沒有冷鏈 有沒有冷藏這個都目前看到是都沒有都沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8837.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8847.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以都有可能 都會腐敗啊你說在屠宰場裡面就在霧啊或是說頭後面的小貨櫃屋或是頭後面的工廠那工廠是中地在嘗試啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8849.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8873.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以好幾家所以這個我希望行政院你這個成績的你要來釐清好 恆的協調要好畢竟我們這個是天天在吃啊我常常在吃那個什麼米酸雞 米酸那個就好了那個現在越想越恐怖耶我為台北就在吃耶 吃得很厲害又沒死又不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8875.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8897.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以這個是很嚴肅的東西建國外的可能也一樣啦你也是一樣在吃啦所以這個要釐清楚到現在不希望再有這種事情發生這太差勁了吧 是好不好 你的青春圈城市你就給它釐清你一直在罵罵罵時務部長一直在罵江署長我是覺得問題出前面了這樣了解嗎 了解好 來 陳亮宇 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8903.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8919.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
你現在這兩天以後要不要冒冒 再六十張不買一張一張就嫁了是 跟委員報告目前報宅到今年到年底通報到食藥署缺藥平台總共47樣那這47項我們事實上也有做一些分析包含說有25項事實上有3 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8922.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8946.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
24項有三種同類的藥品可以替代另外21種有同類但是不完全進行可以替代剩下的一種就是我們剛剛石部長所說到的Cyclosporine的IV這個供應事實上是到115年底取代的廠商食藥署也已經找到了所以關於這一點衛福部有做剛剛的報告再複述一次這個Cyclosporine的老藥我們台灣沒有辦法自己做 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8948.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8965.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
是 來我們有特別跟國內的廠商去做協調 去爭取我們也覺得這些專利期以過的藥物在台灣落地 在地化其實是在藥物供應韌性最重要也是食藥署會再持續努力來推動你看 你們對於國內的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8967.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8986.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
學名藥藥廠或者研批藥廠那種藥要用這麼貴的藥你給他們做一定兩個台幣等於你而已嘛你給人家合價合收價嘛不符成本嘛因為那個藥用的量不多嘛你回去以後你如果不在做什麼署部長在做署長他可能也不在處理這個啊反正就盡量有對配就好啊這樣現在不行啊現在你要盤點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8993.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9009.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
跟委員報告 我們使部長在這個署長任內他那個藥品及支付標準是有公告修法那大家以前都認為說健保署每年的核價都是調降我看報章媒體也是這樣講但是在這個公告修法在4月份之後就可以調升 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9010.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9037.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那從4月份到現在呢我們健保署統計有200多項藥品是調生的所以跟委員報告這個部分我們會來密切注意要調生就要這樣準備我大隊組了他要靠北靠北你們都在想不然你們如果在插人啊那不是這樣會來注意 會來注意沒有啦 現在這個順便美國川普在那裡亂佈一張旗袖什麼藥要進進出出 大家藥大家藥要寫旗記就寫我看部長也說不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9038.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9055.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
到底有的就去 如果沒有來日本買歐盟買也可以啊那一定要讓美國簽字所以這個都是要全盤考量我想我們部長跟署長都有高度跟學術能力啦我對你們應該是有信心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9057.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9077.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以這要好好檢討 每天吊那麼高也知道做電梯的要來要來 你看那種陳情 也要倒一點我主持 我主持 我也是說讓人家可以付成本讓人家可以做下去不然電梯又來一次 你受得了嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9082.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9087.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝蘇委員 謝謝謝謝 請紅熊委員來做詢答謝謝 謝主席我們請石安辦來 請徐主任還有請衛福部部長石部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9106.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9121.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
是 我想請教就是說彰化算是一個農工大縣那尤其是在南彰化這邊就是種稻米蔬菜的非常的多那彰化原本的那個民道大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9122.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9139.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
它有一個農藥殘留質樸快檢實驗室最主要是服務整個彰化地區有15項就是彰化縣政府這邊有特別就是說有15項比較可能會有農藥殘留的這些蔬菜就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9143.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9158.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
免費檢查這樣子其他的部分可能就是有一些費用也會比較便宜我想請教因為我覺得這個也是一個源頭管理就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9160.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9183.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個如果說我們可以在第一時間把這些蔬果可以透過這樣的一個這個農藥殘留的一個實驗室可以檢驗出來那你銷售到市場方面其實就可以民眾會消費者會比較安心所以我想問一下就是說除了彰化這邊有這樣的一個這個農藥殘留的一個實驗室之外那其他縣市有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9184.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9209.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我所知道在農業部這樣的一個質樸快檢的網絡大概現在有十幾個實驗室各縣市各區域都有那我是不是也可以就是說除了跟農業部這邊之外我們應該也要一個跨部會讓農民可以更容易透過這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9211.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9231.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
它的蔬果透過這樣的一個實驗室的一個檢查系統對 它很容易去拿到這邊去做檢查那未來就是說像這個我們彰化這邊的這個蔬菜水果你只要有這個檢查那農業部會有一個標章你到北農的話就可以直接通關也不需要再去做額外的一個檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9231.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9248.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以我覺得說針對這部分應該也要一個跨部會就是說應該源頭管理源頭管理讓農民他的蔬菜水果可以更容易把他的產品拿到這個地方去做一個檢驗那消費者也可以更安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9249.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9267.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
跟委員說我們除了剛講十幾個點之外到現在有五部的那個貨櫃車這樣子的就是活動式的在產季的時候就可以開到現場去但是我們現在大概都跟農會去合作像我們今年底就可能會去去聯絡跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9269.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9288.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
跟屏東的就在產地的時候開一輛開兩輛去那這五輛車現在有一些的是請法人有一些請學校像嘉義大學台大等等的就來幫忙維運這樣子那我想委員剛剛的這一個提議我回去後就會納入開會中的討論請兩個部會共同 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9294.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9311.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
演繹這樣子其實就是說這個實驗室就是說知道說其實它是很快可能幾分鐘的時間就可以檢驗15分鐘的時間就可以檢驗出來像事前做的所以就確定這一批都安全了Safe然後我們就可以去賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9313.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9334.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以我覺得如果可以在這個前端就做這樣子的一個檢驗的話其實對農民來講也是好的因為他可以更節省時間就是說他的產品到北農是一個保證有這樣的一個標章然後也是一個保證所以我覺得你們應該也要跟農業部這邊有一個跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9335.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9353.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
就是說讓農民可以更容易把他的產品來做一個檢驗然後得到這樣的一個標章我覺得這個應該可以來推廣推動 好不好好 那接下來我想請教就是說在今年5月份的時候彰化發生一個重大的一個食安醜聞就是說這個豬排改標 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9358.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9382.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
豬排改標那我現在要請問就是說現在網路真的非常的快速就不論是團購網購在那個網路上面你要買吃的買用的都非常的方便那今年5月份的這一個就是說可能透過網路這個廠商他透過網路可能去收購一些過期的這個豬排 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9384.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9404.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那回來之後再自己改標可是為什麼會被發現是因為原本製造這個豬排的那個食品廠他覺得說我們這一款這個豬排已經停產了就是這一款的豬排已經停產那為什麼還在市面上在網路上面販售所以這樣子才爆發出來的那我想請教就是說未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9406.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9429.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因為這個不是政府自己不是我們食藥署這邊自己發現的是原本的食品廠自己發現的那未來像這樣子的話我們要怎麼樣去杜絕因為現在很多網路團購網購真的非常方便其實你們也沒有那個人力去杜絕這一批食品到底是安不安全或者是它的保存 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9430.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9451.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
是不是有經過冷鏈冷凍或者是已經在這個常溫已經過了多久其實你們也自己沒辦法去做這樣子的一個檢驗 檢查那未來我覺得在網路上面販售的這些東西其實我覺得你們應該要去一個再去想一個方法怎麼樣讓所有的消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9452.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9477.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
第一個你買到的東西是安心的因為尤其是節日的時候過年過節很多人會在網路上面買烤肉的東西這個肉品或者是海鮮那像這樣子的話如果我們自己本身在第一線第一時間就沒辦法發現或者是即使是發現那這個廠商他也會再透過人頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9478.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9502.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
可能又改另外一間公司又開始販售所以我覺得說你們應該要去想一下怎麼要去杜絕這樣的一個類似的狀況了解那你們要怎麼做好 我想到的就是說因為這個剛剛前幾位委員也有問到說跟網路平台特別大陸那邊進來的那我們一個是從資訊的面就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9507.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9529.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
從電腦跟資訊上面怎麼去比對然後提供我們預警的資料第二個就是剛講到法規面的怎麼我們實務上面去強化做到很有效的能夠管理跟嚇阻說這一類的廠商他又要這樣做很容易被我們看到然後我們是有力去處理他的可是他如果又改一個公司名其實你 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9530.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9557.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
你也很難去抓而且它這個東西其實在銷售很快可能幾天的時間就銷完了你即使要去查要去找它的樣就是你們要去追回來其實也都很困難那另外一個有可能未來它如果是從國外直接進來然後販售出去其實兩三天的時間其實你也沒辦法查所以我覺得說針對這部分在網路上販售 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9560.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9571.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個海鮮 食品或者是其他那種食品類的我覺得應該要有一套的方法怎麼樣可以杜絕類似的這樣的一個狀況在發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9574.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9594.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
謝謝委員提出這個漏洞不過我們會持續強化這個十萬五韓每一個環節如何更精進不過呢對於這一種明知故犯這個都是明知故犯他會去改標一定是明知故犯對這種明知故犯的一旦抓到我們就是建立絕對是嚴懲讓他破產讓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9597.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9616.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
大家不敢再去鋌而走險了就是說你隨便就是罰我我查了過去我們5年查的這個食安事件350幾件那麼總共才開罰2500萬所以最高的一件也不過所以就不怕不怕嘛所以我們要建立的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9617.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9631.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個食安每一件都是重大我們看起來這個人民的日常生活都會息息相關所以只要是這種蓄意的明知故犯蓄意的這種不良廠商絕對是重罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9632.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9649.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
未來都是採取一樣的模式來不再姑息那我希望說部長針對這部分真的網路上販售的東西其實都非常的快速那針對這部分我覺得你們應該也要有一些因應的方式因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9650.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9671.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這東西要出去一兩天就賣完了就吃到肚子餓了你要炒 其實也很難炒對 所以應該有因應目前的這個狀況要有更精進的方式來杜絕好不好好 我們來研究謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請黃正旭委員委員會這邊公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9679.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9708.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
盧縣議委員 選打局勢之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟食藥署江署長請副長來 江署長重新公佈 王委員好謝謝 重新公佈 王委員選打局勢之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝被逼的所以這第一名要招委對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9712.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9735.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
部長 署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9738.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9760.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9761.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9776.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個監管的部分看起來是用資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程它的人數上又以至少要5人為主當初在考量這些時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9776.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9794.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9796.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9812.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9812.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9828.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9829.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9850.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
對 所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9851.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9875.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
它的設立時間其實蠻早的 12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9876.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9894.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的製造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9897.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9916.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這一些相關的這個毒珠廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9916.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9940.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9940.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9968.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9969.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9996.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
但是它可能影響後面它發展之後它可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為它的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把它要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計畫所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9997.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10012.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10012.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10031.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上好 這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10031.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10056.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠它用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這一家工廠它會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道它是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把它故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10057.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10075.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10075.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10091.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10092.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10114.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10115.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10131.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10132.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10144.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓它這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10148.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10175.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學員的選定化學物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10176.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10202.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那選定的一些原則裡面我們其實有一部分是食品業者可疑廠商的篩選所以剛才委員特別提到了對於特定的廠商他特定的需求在不同的等級的一些化學物質的採購跟流向的部分我覺得的確是我們是可以進一步去做過去我們針對這部分其實就已經有盯住了62項的化學物質過去在食品安全上面有疑慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10203.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10230.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力好 那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10231.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10254.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10255.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10269.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那这一种呢就是另外一种管理方式那这个要避免的我们去盘点一下我们可供告可使用的化学添加物里面哪一些是同时有工业等级这个就是另外一种 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10270.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10295.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開了好這部分我等一下會請教徐主任再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度是徐主任稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這個這次受傷最嚴重就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這一位負責人 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10295.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10324.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個零下夜市它用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候它很快的也做了一些公佈重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QR Code的食材來源檢驗機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10325.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10349.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10349.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10369.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10370.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10396.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學附租食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10398.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10427.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是Science in Action就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障那科學本身是一個很具有 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10427.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10443.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10444.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10466.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善對其實這一些的資料都是各部會給 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10467.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10478.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10483.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10503.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10504.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10518.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
欄位裡面怎麼可以是空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10519.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10545.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用Science in Action就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10546.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10574.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論的就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10575.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10599.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好 大家來一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝王爺 謝謝部長 主任 請回我們接下來 現在來處理臨時提案 既有一案請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10601.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10616.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
針對檢調破獲百威公司違法使用工業雙氧水並封存大量問題產品但兩地衛生局後續在市面抽驗針對過氧化氫篩檢的結果卻全數合格表示問題大廠已在市面消化完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10617.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10618.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
請問本案行政單位有意見來那邊有麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10646.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10661.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這邊 召委以及市委員這邊正為臨時提案 食藥署這邊提出是否可以針對第二段原提案要求衛福部儘速查明流向於一個月內向衛福委員會提交 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10662.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10688.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
專案報告可不可以改成書面報告因為今天專案的部分我們進一步說明所以改成書面報告序名流向並檢討相關通報及查核作業程序逗號防堵食安疑慮事件再度發生句號是不是可以按照這樣子作為一些修改好 請提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10691.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10704.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那個第一段後面那邊表示問題大廠已在市內消化完畢吃了之後還是並沒有完全我們其實有封存的有2萬噸12604噸那我們其中還有145這個應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10714.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10738.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他說現場把它封存起來的是12,004公斤啦12,604公斤 這個是沒有流出去的這個是封存起來的那另外已經賣出去 但是呢還在廠商那裡的下游廠商那邊的 我們趕快下架的那個也是2000 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10747.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10756.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
2430公斤真正已經賣到消費者那邊的是784公斤大概目前的流向是完全掌握清楚是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10758.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10787.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那另外不是這一家廠商出去的我們還有擴大四面四面的抽驗那目前驗起來也都沒有殘留的那個H202就是那個雙氧水這樣那就照他們修改的同意好 體驗委員真的接受你們也建議的修改文字那我們這個臨時單據照這樣文字修正後通過好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10793.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10809.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好 臨時提案全部處理完畢那接下來我們請盧縣立委員來做這個詢答主席有請部長來 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10815.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10826.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
前面的委員都講很多了不過還是想就針對這個工業用酸氧水這個問題來問幾個問題這次我們在地方我們的衛生局的角色是在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10828.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10847.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
衛生局我們當然這個現場的稽查還是會由這個衛生局所以還是稽查嘛對對對那像什麼比較重大的實案事件我相信它都會有一些危險性在那其實我們在地方服務的時候稽查員他其實常常抱怨就是他們工作時間太長 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10848.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10875.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
然後如果比較像這種比較重大他們希望旁邊會有人幫忙比如說可能會有人身安全的問題在這個時候有達到這些他們的基本訴求嗎大概有兩個考慮像這個案件如果涉及到刑事處刑法的部分的話我們就會也通報檢調來共同處理那如果是一般的稽查如果認為有一些這個風險性我是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10876.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10897.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
部长能够重视他们的安全还有他们过劳的问题我们从去年看到这个死亡数大概有十个人我想知道说就针对我们去年我们原住民小米这种事件家属有些人会跟我反映说有没有国家赔偿机制因为他们的家人莫名其妙的就不见了 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10897.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10918.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
有沒有國家 台東那一個那個那個是他是這邊稍微提一下因為後來確定裡面小米種是是農藥所以農藥這部分其實在查查到底什麼原因原因是怎麼樣子摻進去其實目前是在那我說這部分沒有國家賠償機制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10920.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10935.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我想這部分跟要確定因為要符合這個這個國賠啊那國家賠償的話是要這個過程當中有公務人員他的這個執行上的問題造成的沒有這方面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10937.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10954.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
好 這個工業用的酸氧水我覺得剛才完整協議委員有提到說異常採購的問題大家都會知道說為什麼會沒有人會想到說會用工業用的酸氧水這個異常採購的部分你們有到現在為止有一個改善的措施嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10956.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10984.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
就是如何避免讓這個工業用的雙氧水流入到我們的食品鏈當中所以我剛剛有特別提到對 就是說要去把這個雙因為過去我們沒有把它列入在我們跟這個化學雲的勾基的一個項目裡面我們會把它研議看看是不是要那我剛剛看了就是你們的報告就是大概針對2014年的我們的經費關於食品安全的話我看到了109億 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10986.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11005.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
關於衛福部的話是29億特別預算的話這邊有10億我的意思是說這麼多的錢用在食品安全這邊我們的問題還是一直在層出不窮你覺得這個錢是有用對地方嗎還是你覺得有沒有地方要改進的我們當然這個一方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11007.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11018.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
補充能力還是需要因為剛剛很多委員都提到這個現場的集合也需要耗費人力所以人力的補充還是有它的必要性目前的人力大概規劃到599位 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11021.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11036.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
因為你現在是167加463然後再規劃24再加45剛剛算是599因為它分成中央跟地方那以地方來講是增進對就是現行是463另外再補充45是508 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11040.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11062.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我要凸显的问题就是说其实美国的那个我刚刚有去查就是美国的关于食品的机场大概有6500人他们的人口是3亿4千也就是说刚好是差不多我们的10倍那我们的人力也差不多是那个样子其实我发现这次的问题其实不太是人力的问题而是我们刚刚早上那个林士芬讲的那个行政救济跟制度改善的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11063.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11091.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
可以去真正的把這些想要有點從中獲利或者是不法的這些不具良心的這些業者來揪出來所以應該是從這個方向來前進可以嗎 部長可以 我們會去強化我們內部的通報還有行政的稽查的執行這樣我還是再次強調我們稽查員的人身安危下一個就是我上個月有去我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11094.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11117.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
徐超兵醫師的桑里就是我有去看他其實他的就南回醫院這個部分你目前的想法是什麼目前在南回我們已經有跟台東縣政府合作已經把本來的南回衛生所把它變成南回衛生所暨緊急 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11118.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11142.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
医疗中心把它扩大像有略具这个医院规模不是小小有了因为我常常经过那我要主要说现在他们有凸显一个问题给我就说他们其实在轮指的时候来值班的其实都不具专科急诊专科医师所以希望说真正去指那个南回急诊医疗照顾中心这个位置的医生希望是急诊专科医师 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11142.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11160.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們要不惜重金因為那邊是唯一可以治療的地方它距離台東市跟訪寮都有一個小時以上的車程可以嗎它目前主要是由包含台東馬街還有高一還有幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11166.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11192.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
來協助那個人力的資源24小時的急診他們是希望都是急診專科醫師的話我們再來了解一下目前是有24小時我上個月有去納瑪夏就是針對我們納瑪夏衛生所他本來在山上就是距離他們現在部落生活的地方非常遠所以我們有在做前置作業那高雄市衛生局也陪同我們去做初步的一個概算是2000萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11193.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11221.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
不过它有一个前提是说希望它河边的整治能够做好我在9月底大概9月25号也去配合我们水保署的一个1900万的一个防治八旗工程的计划也准备核定了已经核定了准备来测试所以我希望说他们水保署这边已经有努力这个1900万我希望卫福部能够宽列这个2000万在明年或者是近几年把他们搬迁卫生所这个心愿能够完成可以吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11222.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11247.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
好我們來努力來協助好最後一個就是無人機的問題這次在我們太八朗這邊有三分鐘就把藥品送到這個災區的這個一個經驗讓人家覺得說為之經驗就是說這麼好可是我們在盤點的時候會發現我們原住民地區其實就是5G沒有升級然後地方的通訊都不好其實光有無人機也不行一定要把這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11248.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11263.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
通訊設備弄好那我大概有看到就是說這邊有寫到專次長說有些三大方面來推動那可以做簡單的解釋嗎是這樣 我們有編列了往後明年開始有一個三年的AI的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11265.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11283.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個無人機就包含在這裡面那這個無人機就是從三個方面第一個是說那個缺口打算要可以適用這個無人機的點在哪裡包含它的起降點等等還有航線的規劃所以這個要把它盤點出來第二個是法規的部分也要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11284.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11310.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
讓它可以更常態性的去運用第三個就是那個協調中心因為它有跨部會需要合作的地方那我希望部長能夠請我們衛福部我們園民會跟消防署做一些調配看看哪裡需要就哪裡來強化然後剛才說的它的通訊一定要正常才可以行使對 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝盧卿盈委員的發言謝謝部長的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11311.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11335.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
下一位 請宗嘉斌委員發言主席 戰狼委員 先進列席陣容江蘇黨官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們石部長跟徐主任請石部長 徐主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11338.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11344.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
部長好 主任好剛剛聽說之前的質詢部長有爆料說你也喜歡吃糯米茶 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11344.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11368.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
不是 大燈啊 大燈米線不是那個灌腸的 不是不是那你現在還敢吃嗎 有還有繼續吃 昨天才吃你知道我們屏東很多地方呢都在賣那個糯米腸啊他以前賣說大腸包小腸結果呢最近因為大家沒有人去買他就掛個牌子人生無腸啊 久路愁腸啊大家沒來買啊為什麼 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11372.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11393.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
因為網傳黑心豬腸流向全台黑心的不是豬的腸黑心的是什麼是人的心是哪裡問題是不是用工業用的那個什麼用工業用的雙氧水對不對但是我們看了一下這裡面居然跑出什麼病死豬病變豬大腸病死豬病變的豬大腸請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11399.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11425.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
豬有問題嗎豬沒有問題豬跟豬跟豬什麼關係啊是人的問題嘛那些豬都是農民辛苦飼養避死豬或病死豬早就農委會農業部要求怎樣要做對要做去化嘛對不對給他一個銷毀嘛對所以說理論上沒有那種私底下的東西去做完了嘛沒有嘛沒有沒有這個問題嘛那為什麼媒體會這樣寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11428.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11447.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這樣寫誰敢吃豬肉製品啊還好你知道你說那個蚵仔麵線大腸麵線你都敢吃對不對好來我們往下看所以問題是食藥署的說明在10月4號涉嫌使用工業級的雙陽水加工內臟非來自病死豬為可食用的內臟請問媒體有寫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11451.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11473.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
媒體有這樣講嗎 我們會強化不斷的說明不斷的說明 這個我們覺得非常的委屈我們看過去有沒有例子 來往下看食安事件烏龍資訊 不管是無心或有意受害的都是農民過去發生什麼事情 我舉例給你看巴西綠色彈 有沒有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11474.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11497.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那個徐主任之前你因應過嘛那時候還沒當部長那個是我們還不是當時部長有沒有遇到過是不是真的那個是假新聞假訊息嘛對不對還有呢以前說中秋節發生文旦倒水庫在2019年有沒有結果呢誰受傷農民農民啊 大家說 喔 文旦這麼瘦可以倒水庫你怎麼沒辦法這麼貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11500.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11524.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
對不對 有問題也是遭殃農民說很多過剩 價格崩盤也是農民還有什麼綠牡蠣 有這個事情沒有那為什麼這種事情 層出不窮我們尊重媒體的新聞報導的專業但是這不是專業的報導啊 怎麼辦 保定怎麼辦 往下看怎麼辦我們是只有譴責造成恐慌的烏龍新聞只有這樣而已嗎 只能這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11525.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11548.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
有沒有別的做法來啦給你報一項氣象法有個18條我不知道這樣定你看氣象法說機關學校團體或個人未經中央氣象局現在叫氣象署他不得去發布什麼警報災害豪雨颱風甚至地震發布的時候要註明什麼發布者的名稱權嫌他的預報呢應該註明是來自於中央氣象局的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11550.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11570.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
部長有沒有參考價值有可以考慮嗎來聽聽看那你覺得我這樣提的時候你可能怎麼做我覺得委員這個建議很好那麼因為這個食安是全民都關切啦所以往往如果這個訊息如果不對的話反而造成恐慌社會的不安定同時也傷害農民 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11570.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11586.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是的 所以是不是外務部可以承諾我們來制定一個食安相關的新聞發布的指引或者是規範或者是流程那行政院來協助可以嗎這個我們過去跟委員報告過去我們在自殺防治就做過這樣很好 那成效如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11587.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11612.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
后来新闻媒体现在报导有自杀事件的时候都会遵守那个指引的规范不会去过度渲染报导细节等等这些那我们也来研议那么对于这个按照这个食安法46条之一来设定这个来制定这个发布这个指引规范那我最后您再多一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11612.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11638.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
建立食安相關新聞的查證機制跟平台什麼意思 你要讓媒體方便嘛 媒體搶時間啊你要讓他很快的跟你們確認說這裡面說的會不會真的媒體他可以去問到正確的 這第一個第二個 閱聽大眾如果看到這個怪怪的他馬上怎樣 不是檢舉啦 是給你們提供嘛這個市面上也要流通這樣的新聞喔是不是真的 好像給你們查證一下這個機制跟平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11639.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11656.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
衛福部來演繹好不好查證中心啦好不好公新聞媒體的業者跟一般的消費大眾好不好好那希望你能繼續吃大腸包小腸不要跟我們那個人生無常苦酒入愁腸謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝總嘉賓委員的發言謝謝部長回應下一位請楊瓊英委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11672.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11700.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
謝主席 陽泉發言請時部長好 有請時部長歡迎水先喝再上來好 楊委員好部長好中秋前後是肉品銷售最重要的尤其烤肉大家香腸這些腸子通通都要那在這樣的情況之下我們的食安五環似乎都慢半拍而且都是民眾檢舉揭露的 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11701.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11716.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那當然我們在查緝的時候已經流入到市場而且不知道該怎麼辦就從這一次的這個黑心腸現在去檢驗都合格那那些不合格的跑到哪裡去呢這才是重點 已經吃下肚 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11717.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11744.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
民眾的食安嚴重受損這該怎麼辦所以本席要請教我們要怎麼樣檢討經濟方案如果你只有是讓民眾來檢舉你們才知道為什麼不從源頭去好好的管控制呢你們的積極作為到底是什麼尤其人力方面你明知道你的人力是有缺口的那你要怎麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11745.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11766.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
去把它應對之譬如說你用AI的方式譬如說你可以用液化的一個物流流程這些查核流程液化這個對我們來講都是幫助很大而且解決你人力的缺口我們做了嗎請教部長這一方面你的作為是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11766.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11791.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
跟委員報告確實委員提到透過E化可以去強化整個食物鏈這個產品食品的這個產製銷鏈的這個追蹤當然那現在該怎麼辦呢那現在從電子發票電子登錄我們都持續在推動目前大概完成率大概九成到九成五那最後一哩度我們把它補起來讓像這樣的這個工業的化學 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11794.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11823.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
就是我们在这个卫生局这边会持续针对还没有完成电子发票的开立跟这个电子登录的食品业者加强去辅导让他完成从源头对这个从源头从源头你认可吗那同时依化AI技术去补足人力的缺口还有最重要的不要等到民众来揭露你们才知道那些已经流到肚子里头 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11824.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11824.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
是 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11825.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11854.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
要怎么办所以这个务必要把这最后一里路去补足是 这个我们努力把这个整个系统让它完成你们预估多久 还能不久难免还是有这些漏网之鱼那我们还是会加强这个市场后市场的这些稽查还是需要加强稽查好 一起加油那请教最近我们看到原厂药品宣布退出台湾市场 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11855.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11879.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
在這樣的一個情況之下甚至這個市佔率高的三高的藥品這是民眾非常需要的那比如說化痰藥 氣喘藥這些三高的藥品慢性病那為什麼到九月份竟然我們統計預期是有47家的藥品退出 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11880.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11903.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
部長 這是什麼情況為什麼會如此 什麼原因那我們要怎麼樣去應對呢跟委員報告現在健保所供應的藥品大概是一萬四千多項每年大概都有五六十項會因為他的廠商來提報我們都是鼓勵他提報說如果你不再供應 你要事先講 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11904.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11925.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那让我们可以那以往没有像现在这么多家差不多前年的话是60几项那你现在就已经有47项了47项没有错但是这47项我们盘起来都有学名药它不是专利期内的药全部都是有学名药你有替代你的意思是说你有替代对 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11926.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11943.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
第一個到底是什麼原因人家要退出跟委員報告就是說這些像這裡面有24個是屬於叫做原廠藥原廠藥過了專利期之後就有很多的學民要跟它競爭所以它的價格一定下降全世界都是這樣這個時候這個廠商這個原廠就會考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11947.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11971.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
改變他的這個策略就再回去專注他的專利藥這是藥商的一個策略但是我方我們的替代藥是不是足以讓我們的三高等這些需要用者的患者能夠安心這是一個重點接下來本席請教最近有提出了一個叫健康幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11972.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11988.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
就是打疫苗啊接受公費啊這個癌症篩選啊那我們到底我們說如果打疫苗你可以獲得100點的健康幣那乳房篩檢可以獲得200點那這個政策現在進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11988.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12009.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我們現在正在內部在規劃那最重要就是有三個重點一個這個是幣的發行他可能要採納這個區塊鏈的概念那第二個是哪些要納入鼓勵的措施就是希望讓民眾他去為了自己的健康所做的努力也能夠有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12010.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12037.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
回饋來鼓勵他第三個就是要公司協力要希望有更多的業者民間的業者可以參與這個幣的退換所以大概有這三個環節你們接下來進度預計什麼時候可以去執行之那因為你包括要跟廠商民間的合作那你預計什麼時候可以上路呢希望明年的第一季來跟大家報告這個整個明年的第一季來報告因為這個非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12038.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12062.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
也就是预防中医治疗如果大家有这样子的一个概念我们完整建构让大家可以更加的健康但明年的第一季可以跟国人来报告健康币的进度是不是是是是谢谢委员好谢谢杨强英委员发言谢谢部长的说明下一位请陈寅委员发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12072.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12080.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們先請衛福部長先休息一下然後那個食藥署署長請食藥署 江署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12086.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12106.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
署長好 最近在屏東有查獲一件豬腸它使用工業用雙氧水漂白的食安事件我首先要請教署長 在這件事情之後這件事情之所以被發現是請教你們是由民眾檢舉還是說由你們南區主動稽查發現的這個是民眾檢舉在6月份的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12110.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12136.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好 謝謝署長您是醫學背景的專家應該要很清楚就是說這個實案的問題就是說我們越早發現就可以越早阻斷阻斷民眾去使用就可以避免後續很多疾病的發生醫生也就不用耗費心力去治療也可以避免耗費很多的健保資源所以署長的職責是相當重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12138.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12153.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這次的事件本市有注意到你們在不到一周的時間就調查就查了查清楚這個問題豬場的流布那回收下架了未使用的豬場同時也給予這些不肖業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12155.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12183.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
相当重的这个重罚那本席基本上要肯定食药署这一次的这个危机处理的能力但是呢还是有部分的这个问题猪肠被民众使用了所以我想这件事我们还是有可以有检讨的空间我另外要请教就是说这批违法猪肠到底还有就是有多少是被民众吃下肚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12184.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12201.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
後來我們精算包括我們在風存的部分目前是1,204公斤這是風存到最末梢的所謂的肉店裡面購買我們在現場查扣其實145公斤 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12202.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12221.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
整體我們加起來真的在這個過程中讓國人因為這樣子進入市場而食用有784公斤那這個部分我們在部長特別指示之下我們對於整個流程我們也做很多行政上目前持續在檢討當中所以就是你們的精算是784 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12224.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12236.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
784公斤流入市面被民眾吃下肚是的好那在這批百威在這批之前就是他們還進了多少豬大腸你們有調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12238.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12254.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
這邊跟委員進一步說明因為這家廠商它完全連登記都沒有登記所以是第一個所以它被罰了300萬的未登記那也沒有GHP所以在這種前提之下我們的確不是能夠確確的掌握之前的一個完全的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12255.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12274.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
但是我們一起動了解他從6月18號我們看到他的所謂進出的貨單裡面把所有的把它調出來之後得到的剛才的一項說明的簡單的數字在這個之前我是說在這一批之前你們是調不到數據沒有辦法掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12276.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12296.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那這部分跟委員報告檢方在部分已經有查扣相關的資訊那我們也有去跟檢方去協調能不能取得更前部分的一些資料我想這個部分是很重要的所以你們有主動跟檢方去要他之前的這個進口的這個數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12299.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12316.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
對 目前我們都有提出了好 這樣子表示你們有意識到這個問題所以後續也麻煩食藥署持續的追蹤把百威之前所進的豬大腸數量麻煩你們還是要估算一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12317.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12335.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
因為畢竟我想這個已經有不良前科那過去他們這一家在應該基本上都是用同樣的方式用雙氧水工業用雙氧水去洗這個豬大腸的這個量你們後續在有掌握到資訊的時候再麻煩跟我們辦公室說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12338.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12360.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
基本上本土新鮮的豬腸應該是不需要再使用雙氧水去漂白因為新鮮的豬腸基本上它就白得還滿漂亮的事件過後高雄市政府調查630家及屏東縣政府調查了84家業者總共700多家全數都合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12360.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12380.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那有需要用雙氧水清洗邁向差的應該是國外進口來的這個部分是需要經過關務署來放行那請教一下署長就是食藥署對於國外進口的食材有沒有掌握進口的品項數量跟進口商的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12381.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12409.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這部分跟委員進一步說明因為關務署進來我們在邊境的時候事實上我們用所謂的邊境的BPI protection保護的人工智慧的系統裡面所以關務署的資料跟我們這邊進來的資料在邊境裡面是非常清楚的所有的相關的數字對 因為主要是我這樣問主要還是關心就是說如果說你們這些都可以掌握的話那應該就是可以掌握百威之前他們所有進口的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12410.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12434.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
就是说这一次的案件里面就我们了解是在所谓屠宰场旁边那个货柜屋里面其实是相对直接是在场内的我们目前的资讯掌握好像并没有是场外的或者进口进来的出厂在这边做进一步的加工我想这个问题你们有必要有必要可以再去了解一下是的 一定会的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12434.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12454.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那我再請教就是說你們各區北中南管理中心對於這個轄區的食品業者有沒有登記列管這個都是有在基建登記的列管這家是非常特殊的它連登記都沒有登記好 重點是就是說那有登記列管的這些然後登記之後你們是如何管理怎麼管 有列管 你們怎麼管 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12461.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12485.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我們其實每一家廠商它必須要符合第一個GHP的管理那對於食品的廠不同的廠的一個規模大小它必須要做成品 半成品進來之後完全它的批次所謂的電子發票跟電子登錄目前剛才部長也有進一步說明都達到九成以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12485.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12510.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那如果沒有去做登錄的我們其實按照食安法的違法在48條的時候可以罰3萬到300萬的一個經費目前我們持續會讓它的登錄能夠更完整電子發票的勾結能夠更明顯的完成好 那個經濟部登記的公司行號如果是做這個食品加工進口業 進口的業者你們食藥署有 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12511.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12517.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
有沒有建立資料庫去了解相關的營運、銷貨跟環境管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12519.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12548.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
有嗎 是的 有的我們登錄的時候因為這家廠商 營運銷貨營運銷貨跟環境管理因為廠商他們會預登記所以它預登記的跟我們的廠商之間會有差異所以我們70幾萬家的食品廠裡面我們今年度查起來有4萬2千家其實是中間是有差異的所以我們目前直接就折成衛生局針對這4萬2千家進一步去查查它的所謂的登記項目跟所謂的營業項目的部分能夠達到一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12548.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12569.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我想是這樣因為本席想要建議一下就是說在過去你們可以拿出去處理醬油業者的那種精神跟魄力去處理這些就是豬大腸的這個事件應該就可以立刻被解決因為這個是發生在署長來之前你們可以好好去了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12570.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12599.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好的 谢谢委员用对地方那再从这一次的这个事件虽然你们有就是说立即的处理能力算是不错但是如果说你们可以在第一时间就掌握了这个就掌握就可以避免这个问题猪肠流出被使用这部分是需要靠平时的这个基本控那举例而言就是说进口的猪肠长途运送的这个过程当中容易变色产生腥味 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12600.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12620.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
部分的中盤商還有這個或者食品加工業者他們為了賣相好那本來就很容易去漂白嘛廠商他可以選擇合法的這個食品級的雙氧水那他也有可能使用的這個違法的工業級的雙氧水所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12620.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12640.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
需要不定期的不斷的去稽查那對於這個合法的這個廠商該有的稽查頻率需要你們考量就是有限的人力跟物力所以我相信就是說相較於這個藥品的管理這個食品的管理其實它是更加複雜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12642.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12652.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
目前想再請教署長就是說你們有沒有針對進口食材有稽查頻率的數據或者是說有稽查百分比的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12655.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12672.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我們對於進口的產品其實在邊境裡面就會進入攔截所以這個攔截我們常態的是在5到10%如果對於它過去的違規的違法行為裡面一旦被查查之後我們之前剛才提到BPI會隨著它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12673.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12695.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
過去的歷史而調高它的風險最高是調到每一張逐批的茶茶5%到10%10%到50%甚至進一步到百分之百因為每一次的這個食安的事件很多啦就是我的理解我們看到常常就是說最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12696.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12724.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
就是說主要都有民眾檢舉或者競爭對手的檢舉最多常遇到這樣子再來就是說等媒體爆料或者明帶質詢這個也不少再來就是你們的主動調查大概不出這三大類我們其實也會瞭解說這三類的比例大概是多少署長有沒有瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12726.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12752.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
其實在我們邊境以及我們的資訊系統面攔查了還是佔了一定的比例因為這樣子的其實都不會特別被揭露出來但不可否認就是大部分的比例是民眾檢舉或者是競爭對手的檢舉這個幾乎是佔相當大的比例吧這個的確是有一定的比例那我想是說重點是不管是怎麼樣就是說在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12753.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12780.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
你們後續那個放行之後進來之後 那放行之後有沒有查驗或者是出事了之後再去做這個亡羊補牢的時候調查我們其實在前端的攔截以外後市場的稽查每一年我們都有特定的專案性的稽查是常態性的因為現在是有這個除了對於合法廠商不定期稽查那非法的地下廠商你們其實根本是 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12781.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12810.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
也很難說積極的去主動調查就這個部分跟委員報告一下我們針對的所謂的登記跟實際上營業的部分我們在跨部會我們會積極的更把現在遇到的一些需要更能夠勾結更完整的所以剛才提到的比如說營業相次跟一些登記的相次跟實際上營業上面沒辦法吻合的4.2萬家我們就會交衛生局積極的去查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12811.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12826.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
就是市要署的人力物力是有限就是說當然我們盡量去滿足這個人力上的需求還有這個經費上的需求但是我們的責任是要把這些經費跟人力全部把它規劃好 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12827.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12854.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那我们国内很多专业的团体跟非政府组织那一起也可以一起来为国家的食品食安来把关所以很多的公权力我们也可以委托来使用那特别是样品的取得化验都可以跟外界来做结合那这样还有进口食材这个流布厂商的必要管理我们很重要我现在要讲的就是说建立电子化的这个资料库我想是要做这个呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12856.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12885.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
很重要的建议好这个这个资料库的建议建立是对我们未来的食安管理是很重要的所以这个部分希望你们能够多加油是的谢谢谢谢委员谢谢谢谢陈寅委员的发言谢谢署长的回答下一位请邱志伟委员发言这个能够聆听到这个陈寅委员实施班非常精彩的咨询 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12889.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12913.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
來 謝謝主席 有請委員部時務長時要署姜署長 姜署長邱委員好因為我樓上等一下就是下一個也是我我把握時間 大概一個主題我想那個姜署長也知道我要談什麼這個所有的這個郵件頻道主流郵件頻道 電子台或者新聞台它的時段有很多都在放這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12915.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12941.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
不管是食品或者藥品的廣告譬如說它有助於睡眠它一分鐘睡眠就睡著了十秒鐘就睡著了大家看了會心動現在有睡眠問題的人不少大家聽到會不會心動因為這個是在主流的電子媒體主流新聞台而且是播放時間兩三分鐘有很多專家 又好像不是專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12942.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12970.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
來做背書 來做見證消費者會受到影響 會連我都心動了我不知道你有沒有睡眠問題 我有一點因為我每天都要從高雄坐第一班高鐵來睡得少 又睡得不好但是這個如果真的有搖曉要經過你們主管機關認證這個有關於這個退黑技術它是一個處方藥品嘛不能在一般市面上販售它不是保健食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12971.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12987.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以他用一個很模糊的一個陳述來宣達他的療效那我覺得幾乎這個每一家電視台都大頻率高頻率 高密度的在播出 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12987.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13011.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
每天都有 你去看一下他賺很多錢嗎 應該賺很多錢電視台有沒有廣告收益 有消費者有沒有因此而受惠而得到改善他們睡眠的這個目標有沒有 不知道所以你們不能讓這個宣稱有療效的保健食品來再公開的頻道去做宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13013.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13038.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這個你要基於保護消費者用藥或者這個食品衛生的安全不能沒有作為啊部長 署長不能沒有基於作為啊過去你們還查兩件這每天每一台電視台你去看最起碼都五六個時段而且一播都播三四分鐘他是洗腦式的連他台詞我都背的起來為什麼不怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13040.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13058.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
跟委員報告確實這個食品跟藥品的廣告有它的不同的規範跟限制特別是食品是不能夠宣稱療效的只有藥品才有療效那一分鐘可以睡著或者十秒鐘可以睡著這有沒有療效這個算療效所以我們會來處理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13060.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13077.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
8號委員 上次跟委員進一步報告之後我們其實立刻去因為是藥品 melatonin 推移激素所以直接遮蔽下架採訪所以我們有積極的作為有聯合NCC不能讓這種廣告在主流電視台媒體去播出 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13080.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13104.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
對 針對節目廣告化跟廣告節目化我們希望的是電商業者平台這平台必須課以平台的義務跟責任必須要對這個廣告做進一步所以我們也研議在食安法裡面的修法不只睡眠 還有其他療效 比如說鈣比如說你的免疫技能會增加還有擠出很多數據這些數據都是醫學上的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13108.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13114.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
他標示的是食品他明明有療效但是你硬要說食品那你就不得不管了 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13115.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13138.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
跟委員這邊進一步說明了我們針對食品裡面現在的所謂保健食品法的保健食品以外有些功效性的成分底下的食品我們進一步研議納管變成是所謂的功能性食品的你們要有一個監看小組去看有哪些藥品有哪些保健食品已經違反你們相關規定你們該罰就要罰而且要連續處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13140.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13161.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
你要保障國人的用藥安全或者使用健康食品的降低風險謝謝委員 我們針對這部分包含它的頻率 秒數 重複的次數其實有非常非常沒有上限性的一個懲罰的規定我覺得今天質詢過之後希望說食藥署跟衛福部能夠拿起這機器作為能夠讓這些現象能夠改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13165.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13188.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
好的 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝委員 我們會近期就開始啟動讓他有很快的時間來處理好 謝謝邱志明委員的發言也謝謝部長跟署長的回答下一位林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員林委員不在我們再下一位請洪孟凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13196.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13198.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
好 主席謝謝 麻煩請施部長麻煩施部長好 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13205.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13232.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
国人看到近期发生这个黑心大肠的事件其实对于我们全民国食安都有非常大的一个影响那我想先请教一下因为本席有看到是说相关的一个资料第一 这一家公司它在屏东已经从事珠藏加工作业多年对不对可是它是新北市这边有讲法说为如实进行食品业者登录及为投保产品责任险 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13233.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13241.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
換言之他就所謂的我們一般俗稱的是地下工廠那這種非典型的這個食安破口來講我們想請教到底全台灣目前還有多少家 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13243.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13260.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
按照我們的食安法的規定他本身是這個百威是登記在台北的一家食品公司只是他的倉儲設在新北是倉儲在新北然後加工在屏東加工廠在屏東屏東的這個加工廠沒有登錄進他的這個第一他已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13266.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13285.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
在屏東加工豬場多年了據相關政府的回報他已經多年可是自始至終沒有登錄食品業者再來他也沒有投保沒有登錄食品廠他們也沒有投保相關的責任險這就不是只是單一個案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13286.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13305.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
還是全台灣因為見為知著就是說我們現在想要理解說到底這樣子的一個個案到全台灣還有多少因為本席有看到食藥署近期公告擴大實施食品安全的檢測計畫本席予以肯定因為這個是食安把關但是這個心智主要是針對有登記有規模的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13306.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13330.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那如果說以百威食品這個案例來講他就自始自終沒登記啊所以你們再怎麼擴大食品安全檢測是檢測不到百威的所以才會從下游往上查下游就是說販賣端就是販賣給消費者端他要去確認他的食材的來源那我們可不可以講一個大白話大實話到底全台灣現在還有多少百威 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13333.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13355.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們當然不敢講了不過整個從我們現在食安五環的概念他是必須比如說你是販賣這個麵線的那你用了這個大廠你的來源你要確認他是來自於合法應該說我們期待的是所有的食品最終端的食品業者他要進口的他要購買的原料也都是合格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13356.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13383.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
對 確認來自於合格的食品那我再請教這個百威食品它現在我們查獲所用的豬場來自於哪裡那個是農場就是那個屏東的是國內的還是進口的國內的屠宰場那照理講國內的屠宰場它賣給誰這就兩端嘛一個是國內的屠宰場它是合法合格的屠宰場那它賣給一個百威但是百威它是 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13384.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13405.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
不合格沒登記應該這麼講因為他還是登記他是食品廠所以他賣給他的時候認為他是賣給一個食品業者因為他有登記食品公司只是這一個操作的點是沒有登錄進來的合法的場所所以署長我們在這個案例裡面就像剛剛你也講到是說可以從下游管理但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13405.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13432.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
某種程度上上游來溯源也是可以的兩端應該都要一起因為我們不要說整個一個供應鏈來講中間有一個破口但是很明顯這個案例裡面就是中間出現了破口他用非法的工業用的雙氧水來去做加工造成說上游以為他賣給是一個合法的食品廠下游以為他可能買到的也是一個合法的但中間他做的是一個黑心的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13434.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13455.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那如果說從這部分來講的話我們未來可以怎麼樣因應因為你現在擴大稽查中間的工廠可是你查不到這些地下工廠啊對 所以當然是規定都已經有了所以一旦查獲的話一定是嚴懲不要讓他們有這個僥倖的心態可是我們希望的是不要有這樣的狀況發生因為大家都已經吃下肚了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13457.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13474.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
對 然後另一方面就透過這個E化讓它整個這個食品鏈能夠串起來包含電子發票電子登錄讓它串起來部長 那我們這樣子這些作為什麼時候可以更加強改善我們現在已經讓這個電子發票跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13475.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13498.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
電子登錄的百分比大概是在食品廠的九成到九成五各縣市當然不一樣那我們希望把這最後一里路趕快把它完成那最後一里路還沒有辦法完成主要原因是什麼當然還要考慮到沒錢沒人沒有就是這些業者本身的意願或者是他的規模等等會有這些考慮所以部長您提到其實很 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13499.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13523.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
中肯的一个状况就是说我们至少百分之九十几就是能够全面的来做这样子的一个路线你影响的大多数的消费者也是有比较保障但是在这个案例你有没有再请教我有看到我们食药署也已经重罚五千四百万罚还可是查了一下百威这个食品公司它登记资本额只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13525.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13539.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
500萬對那5000是收得到嗎我們向法院申請假扣押已經申請了對那這個負責人他有一個三天的時間然後之後我們就申請所以第一我們已經申請假扣押所以他名下的這些財產相關方面也不會讓他脫財 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13541.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13563.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我們第一步呢先依請這個行政執行署來做強制執行是然後第二個再跟法院做假扣押是那這一個負責人因為我看到地檢署還有在偵辦有可能有所謂的刑事責任所以會持續偵辦當中對 那我們行政法我們就先走了那那個刑事的部分由這個檢調繼續在偵查中好 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13566.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13586.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那最後一個部分因為今年4月中央政府有對於未登記的食品工廠輔導轉型合格納管工廠的專案我們全台灣到目前為止這今年4月的資料還有134家未登記的食品工廠是不是這可能跟這個食安辦比較有相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13588.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13609.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
跟委員報告 具體的數目是要問經濟部產業發展署有一些是特登的工廠我們在幾年前有一個工廠管理法的修法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13611.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13623.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
有做一些特登工廠去輔導那至於您剛問說還有多少沒有納管那個具體的數字我們有不過可能還有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13626.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13653.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
來 部長也好或者說我們食安辦主任有沒有注意到一個重點今天我們面臨到一個是食安看到的是食品工廠本行拿這個資料是今年4月你們所提供的新聞稿相關資料所以有134家有掌握但還沒有登記的食品工廠那需要配合工廠輔導管理法來去協助他做合法可是這個時間期限在什麼時候我們在2030 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13657.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13678.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
2040對不對一個是2030你要去完成登記特種工廠一個是要整個用地完全合法是2040當然這是法令規定可是凸顯什麼問題凸顯工廠要問經濟部食安要問衛福部然後我們還有一個行政院食品安全辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13679.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13701.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
可是三方面就是一問到工廠問經濟部經濟部今天剛好沒來那食安衛福部要管理然後還有我們行政院食安辦公室結果又說這應該是兩個部會各自要去協調這個從法規上面確實這樣不過因為在食安管理上面跟用地所在地是無關的只要他是做食品業者有這個行為都要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13702.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13710.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
衛福部的這個去登錄然後要去接受這個GHP的這個定期的集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13711.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13738.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
就是說他跟用地的那個長址的身份是無關只要他有這個行為我們就是一律在未卜不納等下還有其他的質詢我想部長我還是拉回來就是說今天國人都很關心食品安全那我們也希望食品安全真的是良好把關但是食安如果說有跨兩個部會然後還有這個一個辦公室在中間我們期待的是辦公室要嘛就整合兩個部會要嘛就一個部會來做主責來去處理而不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13739.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13767.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
食安歸我 但是工廠歸他工廠歸他 食安歸你就到最後就是互推皮球了部長能不能針對這部分來跟經濟部來做進一步的溝通看怎麼樣能夠讓這樣子運作上來講更加順暢好 我們會來努力把這兩邊都無縫接軌起來謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的發言謝謝部長跟許主任的應答下一位我們請謝一鳳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13775.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13803.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
謝謝主席我想請部長請施部長部長我想請問一下就是如果像剛才所有委員在質詢的那現在跟百威這樣子就是工廠加工廠到底就是不管當然經濟部有納管而沒有合法的還有一些沒有納管也不合法的那到底在市面上還有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13804.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13827.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
大概我們的做法會是這樣子處理就是用他的這個稅籍跟我們的食品業者的登錄每年都會做勾結去發現用業者的稅籍對稅籍跟我們的登錄食品業的目前稅籍加上食品業的登錄兩邊登錄如果不一致的今年查查的結果大概4萬家 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13830.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13858.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
71萬的食品廠大概有差不多4萬家這有不合不合我們就會去由各衛生局去把它對就會去查核然後所以目前報的只是冰山一角是不是這邊跟委員進一步說明因為4萬家是這樣我現在做生意所以我先登錄了一些相次但它實際上營業的是沒有所以因為只要是有不一樣的我們就把它挑出來並不是說這4萬家都是有問題的是因為它 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13859.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13886.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
申請這個營業項目所以目前你們所宣稱的4萬家只是說就是營業項目跟登錄有不一樣的部分是不是那這只是說在可是到底有多少家你們還不清楚所以我們跟委員說明這4萬家我們是責任衛生局儲家去查查他確立他的營業項目到底跟他登記的能不能夠一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13886.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13901.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那四萬家是跟目前百威的狀況一樣嗎不一樣 百威是完全沒有登錄的它完全連登錄都沒登錄的那你們現在查有登錄的結果沒有登錄的才有問題啊 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13902.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13929.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
现在是不是这样意思没有登录的意思就是说在我们的这个食安法里面有规范你这个食品业者你都包含摊商你都应该去确认你的来源的合法性要来自你合法的来源所以你这样子说你从下游去查但是你先刚才按照你所跟我说的你其实是去查那些已经有税级的然后与登录不符的部分是不是是万家我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13929.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13955.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
但是百威的狀況並不是這樣他違法使用工業的雙氧水然後去來就是說去來清洗這個豬大腸導致這樣子有食品安全疑慮的進到了所有的小吃的商家嘛對不對我們甚至還不知道進到哪一家我從新聞看也只知道說有著名的麵線而已那其他呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13957.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13975.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個案子是分成兩塊一個是本身他的登記他做這個加工可是他沒有去合法登記這個是一個問題第二個是在加工的過程使用了我們不允許的添加物也就是工業用的雙氧水 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13976.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13993.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那所以這個整個流向是清楚啦所有從他的帳部裡面流向我們都對外都已經清楚公佈主要流入市場的就是在台北市跟這個屏東這兩個市場的地方而已所以流向是清楚那我們的重點是第一個這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13995.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14020.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
沒有登錄完整的這個業者是重罰的那當然也要提醒所有的這個整個食品鏈當中的所有的業者你都要去確認你的來源是合法不要去購買不明來源的貨源這個也是有責任的那第二個呢就是我們透過這個追蹤追溯的系統去把整個這個產製銷整個鏈都能夠建構起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14025.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14042.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以才能夠掌握這每一個地方都是來自於合法的這個業者所以這個是追蹤追溯的這個系統的建立那讓他更及時的話那就是做到電子化包含這個電子發票的開立跟電子登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14043.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14073.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
可是我是說其實當然你剛才講的後端的就是一些登錄跟就是說登記不實的這部分當然是另外一個部分但是其實最重要的是就是說我們這一次發生這個食安問題最重要的部分在於它使用非法的這樣子的一個加工的東西那這個部分的我認為你們應該要全面性去清查這對於民眾現在時的安全是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14073.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14101.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那當然你們必須要了解像這樣子的工業用的雙氧水到底有多少用在食品的這個添加物裡面是不是然後或者是用來相關處理食品的這樣子的一個程序裡面那這才是民眾目前最擔心也最擔憂的因為畢竟這都是銅板美食那對於民眾可能日常都會接觸到的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14102.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14120.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
如果在現在食物價格高漲的情況下如果我們在平常使用的銅板美食那是一般庶民小民最常使用的都有這樣子的疑慮我們衛福部就沒有辦法保障民眾食的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14121.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14140.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
所以跟委員報告說我們馬上就採取了兩件事情第一件事情就是說所有市面上的這個大廠的產品都去加強湊驗看看有沒有這個雙氧水就是H2O2的殘留那目前有沒有那目前查了起來都沒有都沒有 已經查了一千多件了 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14141.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14169.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
一千多件是不是對 全國都查了那第二個是生產的工廠也進去加強茶廠那麼去確認它所使用有沒有使用到雙氧水那如果有使用到的是食品級的還是用工業級的所以這個也有抽查了一千九百九十家業者所以這個是會不會你抽查的都是抽查到好的啊有沒有抽查到對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14169.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14190.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
沒有 就是全面性的查會不會都是抽查到好的不會 我們都是全面性全國去查了有在供應的還有我想要問一下就是川普總統他說10月1號開始所有品牌藥跟專利藥開徵100%的關稅只有在美國設廠或者是動工的藥廠藥品可以免稅所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14198.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14219.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
對於我們目前有214個進口的藥專利藥可能會受到波及那我想要請問我們任性特別條例有200億要撥給健保基金來使用那這有沒有辦法確保民眾用藥安全還是因為你撥到健保基金是一個大水庫你會不會把這200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14221.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14237.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
你健保裡面還有很多事情要做嘛要改變嘛對不對那會不會用到別處那反而我們為了這個關稅因應所撥的這200億會不會被你拿去做別的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14237.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14264.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
不会跟委员报告过去都还有这样的例子虽然川普总统有曾经宣布这样的事情可是到目前的法规我们都密切的在追踪还没有正式的文件正式的文件出来以他初步的说法主要是针对原厂药不是学民药所以学民药是排除在外那么他也排除了原料药 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14265.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14283.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以原料药的部分也没在这个加征的范围里面所以评估起来大概影响的程度就大幅的降低了所以大幅的降低原厂药的部分对原厂药的部分还是有可能还是在补其他你健保的 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14284.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14305.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
專利期內的還是有可能受影響因為他的對象是針對那個原廠藥跟專利期內的那個藥所以還是有可能受影響但是我們因為他還沒有正式公佈正式的文件我們是密切的在注意那至於我們在特別條例裡面特別預算變了這個200億優先會使用在因應這個關稅萬一如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14307.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14334.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
造成這個藥品成本的上升可以來提高藥價像4月到現在我們也增加了200多項藥品的價格我們已經合出去已經提高了所以我們這一筆錢會優先應應在健保裡面的藥價調整因為我們的藥價不知道會發生什麼所以預備在那裡但是如果沒有用掉的還是在健保基金裡頭不會拿來做其他的用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14335.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14361.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
不是 我是說你健保基金裡面當然除了這個藥以外你還有其他的部分 對不對不會的 健保的基金都是使用在民眾的服務上面沒有其他的公務預算使用是不是就是特別多編然後來補你健保的缺口 是不是健保的缺口也是用在這個民眾跟醫療服務單位的也不會是政府部門拿來自己用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14362.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14371.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
好謝謝好好謝謝委員好謝謝謝一芬委員的發言也謝謝部長跟署長的回答現在我們請廖偉強委員發言謝主席請部長還有署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14389.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14413.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
有請部長 還有市長 趙偉好部長好 想要請教一下因為食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人對不對但每年有超過大概76萬批的進口食品的集合需求的存在所以以目前的總數量來講就已經是超過負荷 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14413.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14431.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那在地方衛生局的方面呢只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人還遠遠不足嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14434.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14461.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14462.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14492.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14492.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14517.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好 跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對 就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個對 用邊境的部分來 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14520.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14546.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14547.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14568.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
對 因為本席想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本席要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14571.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14595.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14599.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14623.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標因為我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14624.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14642.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
或者是他要聘人聘請會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14644.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14672.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻那現在我們要逐步的把它往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14672.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14694.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那等於是讓我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對 因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者你這樣子你的精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14694.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14710.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14712.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14733.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案有5項的稽查專案那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14736.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14764.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去稽查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終稽查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14766.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14795.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升它的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14795.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14822.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14823.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14844.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對 這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有在增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14845.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14869.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
也是同時在進行所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家結果你自己只看了17家這部分要請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14871.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14886.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的 一定會的 謝謝那針對這一次的毒大腸的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14887.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14905.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14907.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14926.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14928.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14953.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職的人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14954.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14972.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14973.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14998.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公私協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分特別是工衛師的部分因為工衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14999.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15017.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
那至於前面的所以有在演繹嘛是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15021.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15046.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早地納入一些協助好 那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件 我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15047.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15062.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
在百威公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嘛但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15064.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15078.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15079.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15103.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我們其實在六月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢實際上行政稽查是定在七月十四號中間其實在保期檢調的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是七月三號七月初的時候所以你們六月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15104.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15132.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討對 因為我就是要說你剛剛有說這空排警線有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的而且這是推卸責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15133.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15149.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
你說一定要讓檢調掉那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候哇 已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法請這部分要請部長積極主動 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15151.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15169.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
不要再跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲了我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況是 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15170.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15192.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大廠或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15193.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15212.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15215.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15241.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是它是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對 這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會更密切的來去做是 署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現其實它這件事情的核心其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15242.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15261.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15263.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15278.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏那這部分邀請我們食安辦主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15281.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15295.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15297.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15321.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15322.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15337.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對 所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15338.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15357.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
就是剛剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15359.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15374.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
多少時間我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15375.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15396.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15402.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15414.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
謝謝廖偉祥召委的發言謝謝部長跟主任們的回應下一位我們請顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在下一位請劉建國召委發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15421.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15440.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
好 謝謝主席有請食安辦徐主任還有江署長食安辦徐主任 部長你會不會我希望跟主任跟署長對話也請部長聽看看部長因為我們在修食安法的時候那個時候你應該是144的司長100年的時候 你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15443.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15468.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
應該主任跟江署長都應該都會有這樣的印象不過當時你們都還沒有來啦從100年的時候什麼地溝油啦毒奶粉啦然後工業用的其中還有一個是工業用的某某什麼樣的一個原料他基本上也流用到很大的食品廠裡面去做他的添加物這個所以從100年的時候一直修修修修了修了將近 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15470.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15489.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
應該是七次到八次就是要讓這個食安法更真完備也建立起台灣消費者對政府的信心除此之外還有所有的這些業者的有所遵循不要再有這樣的一個這麼大的一個食安危機來產生所以今天才會特別來 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15491.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15508.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
辦這樣的一個 召開這樣的一個專案報告我要接續剛剛王子旭委員的槌尋還有廖偉祥召委的槌尋剛剛主任是回答他一個月時間你說這一個月 如果再給你一個月時間三華可能又要再重來大修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15509.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15522.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
如果剛剛聽到部長針對蘇清泉召委臨時提案部長跟江署長的回應目前我們已經有封存的是剛剛署長講是好像兩萬多噸後來部長趕快把麥克風搶起來說是1200多公斤然後從這家不銷廠家已經分送到應該是屬於中下游的廠家基本上應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15537.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15554.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
有扣兩千多公斤起來嘛 對不對但是已經出去的七八百公斤左右嘛這數字才正確嘛但是我會很驚訝因為署長就坐在部長旁邊為什麼你們兩個講的數據天狼地瘪今天是專案報告 署長今天是專案報告你們的專案報告裡面兩份基本上很多的數據該去凸顯出來通通沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15563.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15585.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
你們自己回去看你們的專案報告是非常非常我是不願意講這些話了是已經藐視到未還委員會所有的委員也藐視台灣的消費者剛剛林委員講那些話我覺得我覺得坦白講你如果還不覺得那是一個非常重的話其實對江署長來講是一個很大的挑戰跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15587.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15612.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
跟諷刺了啦 因為我們都看好江署長就任之後應該對整個 不管是食品 不管是藥物會有很多的革新的 這樣的積極的作為那怎麼會在你任內發生這麼嚴重的事情他已經用到怠惰 瀆職 內神通外鬼還是外神通內鬼各位剛剛都有在場嘛 都有聽到這些話 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15614.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15640.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那你們怎麼還會在臨時提案的時候會把數據又講錯如果要再追下去這些數據是這些而已嗎我再簡單講我實在是很想再聽徐主任講說這個事情怎麼會發生怎麼可能這樣發生怎麼發生完之後的處理的整個SOP是這個樣子到今天在委員會對所有委員做出的報告又是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15643.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15671.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
連剛剛你們打呼王委員的那一個內容你們就這樣講的過去我要簡單講當時因為很多的面向所以才會在這個委員會一直修一直修一直修有一個法律修的好像跟交通處罰條例一模一樣修不完 修不停修到最後大家覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15673.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15700.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
台灣的食安已經往前邁進一大步那今天回過稻草原發生這件事情六月初被檢舉到十月才有這樣的動作然後你們剛剛答覆的是要會同保七總隊你跟我講在剛剛部長答覆委員的相關的問題這五年 這五年就好總共有告發三百五十幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15701.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15726.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
總共金額花了兩千多萬 對不對這五年 這五年花了兩千多萬三百多件跟這一件雷同的 跟這件的樣態差不多的有需要收到檢舉六月 然後才十月初擴大檢警調然後相關單位去做處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15728.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15742.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我隨便都可以列舉等一下我的資料裡面就會顯示出來有拖這麼久嗎有需要這麼做嗎有需要這個是你們原有的SOP啊還是換了江書長之後SOP改了 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15747.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15774.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
所以我希望在委員會你們就很坦誠的很實際的把狀況講清楚了這個事情怎麼可能還有讓你一個月的時間去做什麼樣的調整跟修正部長 新官三任三把火你該立位就該要立位了因為畢竟你也當過衛福部的次長所以你去履歷一下這整個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15775.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15803.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
真的問題大到很難想像我再簡單提醒兩件事情這家公司這家公司營業項目一大堆這家公司我們一樣算五年就好他用的工業用的淨的工業用的這雙氧水他淨了多少量他不是關注的化學物質但是他的這一個化學物質一直流向這家公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15804.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15830.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
這家公司零零總總登記的多數都是在做茶葉 煙酒 食品 農產 畜產 水產其他農畜產品 還有飼料 食品 食貨 飲料 零售業還有太多 太多通通跟食品有關係這五年這家公司進了多少公寓用的這磚農水 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15833.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15860.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們的政府不管是環境部的毒化署化學署現在改化學署我們的衛護部的FDA通通不知道通通沒有掌握還需要經過人家檢舉之後然後現在說要一個月時間來做相關的調整還是處理還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15863.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15885.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
這個你們說得過去你知道剛剛說查扣封存的查扣的這些這些是你們現在有扣的那再往前推還有其他廠家像這樣類似的大廠用在什麼樣的用在什麼樣的食物上主任你知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15886.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15902.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
不是只有台灣的特色小吃叫做大腸麵線他用了幾項我們每天台灣的國人幾乎通通要吃到大腸麵線不一定大家每天都會吃嘛那早餐有一個叫做什麼大腸豬尾湯 吃得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15907.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15927.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
火鍋店的主要食材大腸是不是很重要的然後呢 還有什麼你可以講 大家講給我聽聽幾項時間到了這麼快對啊 滷味啊 麻辣啊 燒烤啊各種的其實炸肥腸啊 薑絲炒大腸啊肥腸茄堡啊剛剛在底下就寫了11項 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15937.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15963.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
就寫了11項不只啦還有還有我們每天到底這一家被你們查獲的被檢舉被你們查獲的這個廠家百威流入到這些店面餐廳火鍋店小吃店串燒店每天到底多少量查獲之前這5年我們就抓這5年就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15968.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15996.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
所以主席給我等不到時間給主任講清楚了好不好好那個請跟委員報告委員一開始從食安法的修法開始那事實上這個是一個它是一個非法行為就是說我們如果從正規的業者應該用食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15997.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16016.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
集的食品添加物的雙氧水來做的時候是在我們的納管之中在這個案子裡面大概我們看到有幾個盲點就是說我們先前沒有注意到主任我希望你不要用盲點兩個字好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16017.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16043.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
你應該直接了當講說這個哪一個環節是不應該會這樣發生的我希望我們就直接坦承了好不好謝謝對 其實從今天上午到現在有相當多討論第一個就是它在這個畜牧之後到食品的銜接的權責然後它業別一樣是很特別然後第二個它既然有食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16045.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16071.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
這個從事食品加工的行為然後他沒有去食品業者去登錄然後我們在原有的這樣的他為什麼沒有去登錄因為他為什麼到這件事情發生之後才知道他沒有去登錄對 這個這家公司開多久了你們掌握他這家公司開多久了上午的商登大概是一二十年的百威他五百萬的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16073.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16098.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
資本額 對然後那我們初步的了解是他認為他是屬農方在管理在那個屠宰場裡面所以屠宰場就是農方但事實上他的業他的從業的行為是在跟食品就等於分分切處理那一塊了所以我們其實就會對這一塊在介於農方跟衛方間的兩邊都 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16101.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16120.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
會未來共同去管理那至於剛剛先不要講未來我們先講說這家公司我這邊寫的是核准設立的日期是102年最後核准變更日期是113年就是這樣的數據應該不會不可能對不對不管怎樣他就是一個叫做他的名稱叫做百威食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16121.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16138.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
有限公司對那我們一樣追五年嘛這五年它到底進了多少的工業用的雙氧水嘛為什麼這件事情它是食品公司啊它進了這麼多的工業用的雙氧水 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16140.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16168.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
你們剛剛還在講說川東水有分食用跟工業用他就是禁工業用啊工業用的在現在的狀況是沒有納入環境部的這個關注化學所以我們現在第一步就要把他這個請環境部納到他的這個關注化學他沒有納入到關注的化學物質的情況之下他是又是一家食品有限公司他這五年到底進了多少工業用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16169.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16191.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
這個雙氧水怎麼你們通通不知道食安五環是這樣嗎食安五環是一定要關注的化學物質你們才有辦法勾結的到嗎是這樣嗎你真的要很慎重很專業的回答我的問題喔我剛剛在主席台我就已經提醒你們今天為什麼要辦這個專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16193.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16222.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我們如果不清楚 我不會這樣講啦我希望我們把事情就講清楚因為已經有人講說你們瀆職了啊你們內神通外鬼 外鬼通內神我實在不想再講這些話那個現行的情況確實我們沒有掌握這個怎麼會沒有掌握怎麼會有這樣的落實沒有掌握到因為只有關注化學 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16222.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16244.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
物質才要去化學運申報是然後因為他並沒有列進去所以一家食品有限公司他只要他進的都不是關注的化學物質他這五年進了已經完全不合乎常理的情況之下來供應這個食品加工廠他自己本身的廠廠去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16245.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16273.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
什麼樣的情況去調配或是加入或是添加我們通通管不到只因為它不叫做關注的化學物質所以我們食安辦我們FDA我們環境部通通管不到是這樣嗎我們當時修華有辦法修到讓你可以今天來對委會講說這就是盲點這就是修華上的遺漏之處你現在要答呼我是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16275.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16304.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
你對過去的100年那第8屆第9屆的委員你要講說你們修法就是很兩光啊今天才會發生這樣的事情啊他根本不能夠用那如果他進了這一類的這一個非實天的第8屆的時候楊耀文已經來了喔他有參與修法那個他要說明他是怎麼樣的用途是在洗地板的或者是環境用途特別的用途要跟誰說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16306.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16331.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
他自己就要寫記錄然後跟集合的時候就要可以解釋出來一般的時候會有地方的這個衛生局然後那定期如果排專案的時候會有這個跨單位的去聯機所以地方政府有問題還是你不好意思說 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16333.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16357.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
還是地方政府跟FDA南區的都有問題你也不好意思說你是食安辦的主任你有什麼好不好意思說的因為實際狀況因為他沒有登錄所以很可能會在名單之外所以這個得要緊迫的要把這個洞補上我實在因為這個講下去時間用很多啦後面還有兩個位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16360.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16380.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
昨天你剛剛答覆我第一句話 我覺得食安辦已經不見了我已經把結論寫出來了環境部不管 衛福部不吃然後就創造台灣成千上萬個無辜的消費者因為每天都要吃這些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16383.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16407.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
最後我再講部長可能底下提供給你訊息的你要用可能要小心一點過去5年355件花了2500多萬然後這一件花了5400萬要給他破產我覺得這件事情這個業者還沒有破產我們的食安班跟食藥署就已經破產了 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16410.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16438.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
你要跟我講說這一件是故意的所以就重罰5400萬355件花了2500多萬通通不是故意的是這樣嗎2500多萬除以355件平均一件7萬你這一件叫做故意的所以就是你平均裁罰在5年委婉食品相關的法律的這些業者高於幾倍呢770倍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16444.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16473.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
你覺得在過嗎所以我再問下去 再提醒剛剛主任才講到第一個環節而已喔後面還有很多這邊都留下一些歷史紀錄不管是FDA 不管是地方政府不管是新北 台北 台南 高雄等等等只要稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16475.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16498.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
稽查相關視頻過期啊你們就雷力風行到什麼程度了這些事情一個大腸每天台灣消費者在很多面向都必須要實用到你們可以六月被接受檢舉之後拖到十月你才大張旗鼓的有檢調 檢警調大大大七個單位六七個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16501.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16519.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
去做稽查然後才封存的1200多公斤而已三個多月從六月被檢舉我們都不要再抓了我們從六月開始你們受以檢舉那個時候這家公司又製造的 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16520.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16545.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
又加入了公用的雙氧水每天多少量每天出到什麼地方去總共一直到被你們封存之後這組組將近一百多天請把數據公布給大家知道請把數據公布給大家知道然後相關的人員必須要負起什麼樣的責任要不要連跟你們一起去的檢調檢察官已並辦這裡面到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16549.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16574.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
涉及多少的隱匿不報涉及多少的工人該作為而不作為就獨持要不要一併辦請這個禮拜請這個禮拜把相關的一些調查報告是不是給未還委員會我禮拜四還是可以變更議程不可能等到你們一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16576.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16594.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
請主任 署長 還有部長來正視這個事情是好 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝劉建國稍微的發言謝謝許主任的回應下一位我們請曾振淺委員曾振淺委員 曾振淺我不在下一位請葉元之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16608.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16630.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
你好 麻煩請部長謝謝好 又請施部長委員好部長好 我們現在在討論這個食安問題嘛在前政府啦 蔡總統時期一直強調食安五環可以確保大家的食安沒有問題但很顯然喔 這個事件就是獨大腸事件它是從源頭管理就出現問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16632.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16656.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
剛剛我有看到包括執政黨立委都非常不滿譬如說之前因為今天沒有環境部啦但是環境部那個時候也是跟大家講說十安五環的第一環源頭管理要一些化學添加物他都要管理沒錯吧所以積極遊說大家成立讀畫局而且還要花錢去建置化學雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16657.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16666.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
就是說那個如果有相關的化學的東西要登錄然後如果他的流向是比較不正當的地方而不是不正當啦是這個讀大長時間有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16676.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16690.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
跟委員說明剛好這個雙氧水H2O2沒有在化學雲應登錄的項目沒有所以那時候化學雲在建置的時候沒有思考到工業用雙氧水會拿去洗大廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16691.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16706.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
沒有思考到這件事情當時候沒有當時候沒有那工業用雙氧水有沒有可能也是去洗別的東西有沒有可能除了洗大腸之外有沒有可能洗其他食品造成也是一樣毒食品的狀況有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16709.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16730.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
就是這個如果是食用食品級的H2O2的雙氧水是可以做我是說因為它食品級可以用就有可能被混進去用所以工業我們才會說要納入那個化學雲部長因為今天環境部沒來啦我跟你請教一下你覺得工業用雙氧水應不應該被納入化學雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16731.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16759.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
應該要把它那為什麼之前政府講的好像源頭管理多厲害啊食安靠政府啊有政府就沒問題啦結果連一個工業用算用水當時在建置化學雲的時候都想不到跟委員報當時候在考量哪些要納入的時候他有考慮到第一個是他的那個風險程度啦他的毒性啦顯然就判斷失準嘛如果今天如果那時候講那麼準的話我們今天也不用討論這個題目了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16760.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16789.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
所以今天沒有環境部因為但是食安組織單位還是衛福部是不是可以請衛福部跟環境部講清楚那個時候建制化學研究所講得那麼厲害然後結果連什麼該納入什麼不該納入都有漏掉的這個國人會覺得很訝異特別報告一下因為雙氧水H2O2它其實經過時間之後它其實就變水了所以它本身的毒性當初的想法它是毒性低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16789.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16793.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
所以相較以前的塑化劑相較以前的毒澱粉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16795.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16819.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以你覺得不用納入嗎所以署長覺得不用納入是不是當初是這樣子的想法所以你就不用再講當初了嘛我們現在就已經我們現在就是在討論這個毒大腸事件你還在跟我講當初部長剛剛都說應該納入所以你覺得不該納入嗎所以我們現在覺得他應該需要我現在只是講說會不會你當初認為風險比較低的東西其實他的風險比你想像的高嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16820.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16837.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
工業用雙氧水就是嘛就是它的用途多啦對 用途多嘛所以它就有可能變成風險高的東西所以我是說請衛福部跟環境部建議好不好就是說重新再去思考一下哪一些化學添加物應該要被納入的就是從之前認為風險比較低現在發現從這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16842.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16865.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
未來可以把它納入了你們跟他們建議一下 是從食安的角度 是好不好 第二個跟文報我們會去盤點這些化學添加物哪些是還同時有工業用的我們一起做盤點一起做盤點 對好不好 讓那個化學雲建制的有用好不好第二個 這個就應該就是衛福部的業務了就是有一個你們有一個登錄平台叫做非登不可 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16866.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16893.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我們去查了一下這家屏東百貨公司好像飛燈不可也沒有他的資料對 他沒有登錄那你們當初在宣傳飛燈不可的時候還拍影片啊還做一大堆宣傳說103年12月31號以前沒有登錄的人業者是不可以營業的而且在宣傳的時候嚴格到什麼地步連那個送外賣的都要登錄啊結果一個做大廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16894.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16910.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
做這麼多的不用登錄為什麼所以這個違法沒有登錄我們就給他重罰因為我們這個要求就是要去登錄那你故意違法漠視這個法律規定這已經有一段時間了所以我們才予以重罰所以前面的源頭都出問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16912.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16928.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
你沒有辦法從源頭這個角度去處理去把食安的問題把它防避啊不管是化學雲啊飛燈不可你現在是事後罰嘛但是飛燈不可應該是屬於源頭管理嘛對不對那所以如果源頭出問題那衛福部應該要怎麼解決勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16932.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16947.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
這個還是要強制去做我就事後把事後把大家的那個大腸都吃下去了而且這一次那個大腸事件其實有賴很多下游業者自己自發性的跳出來講了比如說像阿周麵線他是自己第一時間跳出來講嘛說他有勁嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16948.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16964.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那如果他沒有一開跳出來講等到衛福部或地方衛生局去查查查然後他又沒有登錄沒有登錄會增加查的時間嘛所以很可能如果不是業者自發性有良心的業者自己出來的話吃到肚子裡面的更多啦所以這也是一個很大的漏洞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16966.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16981.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
對 所以部長要怎麼解決這個我們會去加強這個登錄還有上下游的串聯來讓我們掌握住哪個地方的環節可能要怎麼加強上下游串聯前後 就是你一定有 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16981.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17001.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
下游嘛下游你要去核對說那你買的貨源是不是合法有登錄的來源這些是整個上下游要串聯起來這個是我們現在在做為什麼要讓他這個通通上平台那麼從產至銷通通要一條龍把它串起來就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17002.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17029.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
那部長你們應該會提一個檢討報告出來吧因為今天大家也問了很多嘛那顯然有一些只是比較抽象概念沒有具體的做法那是不是會有一個比較具體的做法來跟那個至少一個報告給大家參考一下從這個案件呢從這個案件我們會做一些內部的檢討還有哪一些環節可以再強化的所以你也覺得食安五環有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17030.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17042.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
還是有強化的作業上有很大的問題是之前吹噓得太厲害了好啦 再來喔我跟你問一下那個缺藥的問題因為現在有很多藥都退出台灣了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17043.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17071.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那魏福布的態度是覺得影響不大因為有很多替代性的用藥是吧跟委員報告我們現在健保供應的藥品是一萬四千多項那這裡面這一次呢今年登錄先來通報說他打算在六個月間會這個停止提供的大概這四十七個項目裡頭這個我都知道這個新聞都有報了你們也都有講過我的問題是說這裡面都是有學名 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17071.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17095.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
因为魏福布讲的是说因为有选民药或者是替代所以影响不大这个全世界大概都是这个趋势实际上我们就听有些医生反映例如说像化痰药气疏痰其实它退出市场其实很多病人很多人在反映这个药当然你说有替代药但问题是好像有人用了替代药效果没有气疏痰那么 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17096.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17114.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
以這個藥這個Visobon來講它是印尼廠那是因為這個代理商跟這個印尼廠的合約上出問題那是不是因為你價格砍到他不敷成本所以印尼廠商都不願意做所以他現在尋求另外一個廠所以實際上是跟藥價還是有關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17116.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17131.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
那我是觉得如果是药架我们都可以来调整因为你们在那个药哪一些药本来是自费药要纳入健保药这一块我是听很多医生在讲有时候健保署就管得太宽了有些药 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17132.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17160.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
有些病人他就是願意自費去做因為他比較好願意自費但是硬要把那個自費藥變成健保藥然後又砍藥價人家就退出去變得原本要自費都用不到其實這是一個問題第二個是像有一些藥如果你要把它砍到價格夫夫成本那人家當然只有退出但是你講的又是說那沒有關係退出就退出我們有全民藥我們有替代藥品可是使用的狀況就是不如原廠的藥來得好最後受害的還是病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17161.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17187.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
不過我覺得在處理這個藥價的部分你要考量的點很多啦因為藥品不是一般的產品藥品是方方面面都要考量啦這個確實像委員說的這個需要考量的層面很廣所以到底是不是給予這個所謂的病人自費的差額負擔就可以解決這個問題我們會再更審慎的去評估好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝部長請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17191.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17214.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
謝謝葉委員 接下來請奈會委員 奈會員委員 奈會委員不在請楊耀委員謝謝主席 主席請一下部長和署長還有署長楊委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17219.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17245.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
兩個人同樣專業就不知道要問哪一個這兩個人很專業我直接這樣子問好了就是我們今年大概有到9月底有47個7項的藥品包括學名藥跟針劑將提供供應請問一下這個到底跟藥價有沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17247.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17269.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
跟委員報告這個47項裡面大概屬於原廠要的是24個但是這個原廠都已經有學民要出來所以他們多數是考慮到他們的市場定位像那個什麼百優姐千優姐他根本就是不做了因為跟學民要太多了他不要再跟人家競爭了他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17270.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17286.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
轉變他的這個商業的策略去發展他的專利藥為主所以這全部沒有一樣是專利期內的藥不供應都是過了專利期同時有學名藥所以其實跟藥價是沒有關係的 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17287.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17310.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
那藥價我們都可以來提高所以像4月到現在我們也合訂了200多項的藥品給它提高藥價如果真的是因為成本物料的價格的影響也可以來提其實有學名藥出來以後的延長藥其實它的價格本來也就跟學名藥差不多對 這個全世界都是應該是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17312.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17322.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
只是說我們要去確保這些學名藥的療效讓它相等在保障這個病人用藥的安全會不會引發缺藥的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17325.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17342.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
会缺药是病人拿不到药叫做缺药所以我们要处理的是要预警就是不要你突然间断药了断药的时候病人他换药也要有一定的时间去适应所以我们才会要求说这些要停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17343.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17357.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
供應的一定要提早講提早講我們就有辦法來因應不論是開始做統一的控貨或者是輔導其他的業者增加產量因為有些有學名要可是他產線有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17358.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17384.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
它要一下子增加也要時間所以這些我們都有辦法因為只要提早預警我們後面就不會有缺藥的問題我們還是利用這個機會讓部長和署長講一下原廠藥跟學名藥因為大概這一次缺藥所以很多人對學名藥會有誤解我覺得這個部裡面跟署裡面應該要去加強宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17387.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17409.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
原廠藥就是因為藥廠他負責研發所以研發的費用很貴所以給他5年的專利期不只喔專利期有時候很長 20幾年都有可能看他投資專利期過了以後他大概就會公佈他的成分 劑量跟劑型 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17410.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17428.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
那其他的藥廠就可以根據這三項去形塑出來它可能藥的包裝不一樣然後形塑的過程會有差異可是通常來講藥效並沒有說一定就是原廠的比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17428.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17456.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
對不對 對譬如說大家最接受的普拿程它就是學名藥跟委員報告 對很多人以為普拿程是原廠藥不是 它也是學名藥對 所以我才想說藉這個機會是不是提醒一下部裡面跟署裡面就是盡可能讓國人知道避免恐慌大家都以為說原廠藥的療效比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17457.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17476.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
其實不見得啦應該這麼講就是學名要問世問世的前提就是原廠要公佈了他的所有的配方所以理論上應該是沒有不必要造成這麼大的恐慌只要他的製程符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17476.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17492.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
符合規範像我們現在是Peace GNP廠自成符合規範配方對了其實有的都還會做臨床試驗做BABE生物相等性這些所以那個可以確保這個要效是相當的基本上就是不一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17493.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17516.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
不一定完全一樣啦那每個病人接受的也不一樣啦可是我覺得我們有必要把這個觀念跟國人做個說明啦不要大家對於因為其實這個就是民意代表當久了你大概就遇到很多問題啦其實我們很常被問這個問題啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17520.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17546.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
為什麼醫學中心的藥好像就比澎湖好那我通常都會跟他說不會啦就是一般來講不管是原廠 學民他的療效應該都是跟委員補充說川普總統美國川普總統提告提到說要增加那個進口的藥的藥價的那個不是 關稅要增加他也是針對所謂的原廠藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17547.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17563.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
他也是要扶植他自己國內的學民藥所以他只針對原廠藥去提高那個關稅所以道理是一樣的就是原廠藥應該價格要下降那個有學民藥出來了不應該還是在專利期這麼高對 那他 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17565.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17580.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
有學名要出來他還可以這麼高可能是很多觀念造成的要不然有相同療效的東西出來理論上他不應該這樣子部長既然直接講到川普那我也直接問一下就是說其實藥品 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17582.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17599.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
是比戰略物資更重要因為它本身也是戰略物資而且它是不管軍民都必須要用的那我們國內川普他是用關稅來保障學民藥的製作我們國內有沒有相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17605.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17627.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
我們的做法上是因為所有的藥品健保是最大的買方所以在價格上我們對於國產的學民藥那麼在合價上面如果他是專利期剛過前幾個來就鼓勵趕快有學民藥在台灣製造的我們前兩張我們給的價格跟他跟原廠藥一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17628.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17648.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
我們原廠藥一旦過了專利期大概有五年的時間慢慢調藥價但是如果在這個五年時間有台灣的學名藥跟他一樣我們就給他一樣的價格來鼓勵那第二個呢就是如果你這個是台灣的學名藥同時有做臨床試驗來證明他的療效相等 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17649.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17676.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
本來不一定要但是你做這個事情我們也給你加價10%價格比較高那另外如果你這個這一組的藥裡面學名藥的品項低於三個以下的我們那一年也不給你調藥價不砍藥價來鼓勵大家來供藥讓他韌性可以好一點那甚至呢還可以來提彈性提高他的藥價所以當然我們也做了這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17678.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17701.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
甚至於我的看法就是說扶植國內的廠商其實台灣有的時候就是大街也怕圖利要不然其實國內的藥品的相關廠商其實應該要給必要的資源就給啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17702.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17716.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
因為這個國內不自己扶植自己的藥廠然後萬一有就是等於你的脖子被其他的國家掐住這個對於台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17718.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17747.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
跟委員報我們最多的時候在我們實施Peace GMP前大概國內的藥廠大概400多家現在實施Peace GMP已經到100多家了所以留下來的這個都是有品質的製藥廠所以進口人給予多方面的協助啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝委員你要跟我問一下國安辦主任嗎國安辦主任麻煩一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17747.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17759.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
主任好主任我大概問一下因為時間的關係我還是想要因為我們設立食安辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17767.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17793.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
本身就表示在宣示政府對於人民的食品安全有多重視那看起來就是這一次整個從先不要講前端就從你們知情到稽查到存封的速度都太慢了這個第一點第二點就是我問一個問題就是說你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17798.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17826.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
以後要怎麼防止非關注化學物質進入食品廠目前有沒有什麼想法好 應該這樣講講大方向就好了假如已經列入關注化學物質都會納管不是現在就是還沒有納入關注化學物質對可是他就是明明不應該在食品廠的東西對 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17828.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17845.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
所以有兩個方法我們會去檢討說這一些的項目適不適合納進去因為最早我們的顧慮就是說有一些這一些的化學品是有當成10天在用的那會讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17846.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17868.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
民眾會覺得說那怎麼會這些是毒化物然後是可以遲的會誤會所以我們未來會用關注化學物質去溝通假如它是沒有定在關注化學物質裡面它運作的紀錄會不夠我們就要靠地形的集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17868.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17883.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
去看它進來的這一些非實天的化學品的管理它的庫存 它的使用紀錄我們去強化我們在實安叫做三專管理專人 專櫃跟專測它每領一瓶出來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17884.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17907.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
多少應該都要寫記錄那我們就要強化這一些管理他買進來的非實天的化學品所有都應該去列管那用這樣的一個方法強化管理因為他如果對不肖的黑心的業者他硬要做壞事不讓我們查那我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17908.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17931.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
得要靠其他的方法去讓它浮出來從蘇丹紅到這一次的事件都是非關注化學的物質假如說每個業者都很有良心也不需要設立食安辦所以我因為時間的關係我今天不大想已經沒有辦法跟你 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17932.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17952.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
溝通很多啦不過我覺得我去找委員我覺得現在沒有納入非關注的部分你們要怎麼去查查這個你們要好好的想一想然後人力不足的部分我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17954.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17972.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
食藥署那邊好像已經有增加了24個名額也還沒有用 要進出補足啦好 謝謝主任 謝謝主席好 謝謝那接下來請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17974.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17990.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
本次会议议程寻找全部结束现在作为下决定第一报告及寻找完毕第二委员质询未及答复过请补充资料者请相关机关于两周内以书面答复委员另要求期限者重启锁定那本次会议到此结束现在散会 |