| IVOD_ID |
16933 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16933 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-09T08:35:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-09T12:59:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:23:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854a1b1968cb0ca4a16b50cf8b0353527f2eb94a68550f7b5b53204dbbdfcf1db45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:54 - 12:59:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1565.179 |
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1594.022 |
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好現在開始開會繼續開會那本日會議議程為邀請勞動部部長針對因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策進行專題報告並被質詢那現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員第一個陳昭資委員王王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1596.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1612.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好那在場的官員有我們勞動部部長洪森漢部長勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉署長職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂署長還有勞動保險司司長陳美女司長勞動關係司司長王厚偉司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1618.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1624.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃琦雅司長還有會計處副處長許嘉玲副處長謝謝接下來請勞動部紅部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1639.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1655.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席各位委員那各位記者朋友大家好那今天很謝謝貴永恆的邀請那來就因關稅造成我國市場及就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策來進行專題報告那敬請各位委員不吝賜教 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1657.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1686.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
在美國對等關稅措施前其實本部已經建立美國關稅影響事業單位的監測通報機制主動訪視受影響的工會與企業掌握勞動市場變化也給予及時的協助有關訪視工會的部分到目前我們已經拜訪了128家的工會我自己也親自與超過200個工會幹部來座談建立直接聯繫的溝通管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1687.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1715.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那在訪視企業的部分截至10月1號為止全國已經訪視超過2萬家的企業那其中3825家表示受到影響那主要是集中在金屬製品機械設備還有塑膠製品製造業另依據最新減班休息通報顯示全國共有398家事業單位8505名勞工實施減班休息那這其實是避免雇主之前勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1716.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1740.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
嚴重影響勞工勞動權益的權益措施那目前通報減班休息的勞工73.6%的企業其實適用我們這個雇用安定措施的頁別那有八成以上的員工可以申請薪資差額補貼那每一位減班休息的勞工勞動部其實都有資源和協助那本部將持續密切監測減班休息數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1742.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1765.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
並請各地方政府審慎把關積極掌握各縣市產業勞工的狀況做後續的因應然後為協助勞工安定就業本部會在8月13日發布因應國際情勢支持勞工安定就業辦法規劃多項強化措施以穩定就業市場避免失業的情形那第一個強化公安定措施3月1日起 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1766.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1789.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
橡膠製品製造業等3個行業來開辦公用安定措施8月13號再公告強化版公用安定措施將原本適用的行業別擴大到9個行業那薪資差額補貼比例也從原本的5成提高到7成那另外也鼓勵減班休息勞工參加職業訓練薪資差額補貼可與減班休息勞工在充電計畫的訓練基地合并勤領 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1790.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1808.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
減慢休息勞工再充電計畫是為了鼓勵減慢休息勞工利用暫時減少工時期間參加訓練課程除訂有充電再出發訓練計畫協助穩定就業以外為因應國際情勢可能影響那增訂減慢休息勞工再充電計畫專案協助受影響的產業在 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1811.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1835.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
包括在職勞工和事業單位那勞工可利用減班休息期間來依照參訓時數申請訓練津貼每個月最高可以有17210元那對於減班前的平均月頭髮薪資在30300元以下的勞工那也可以依參訓時數來申請每個月最高2280元那為鼓勵企業辦訓補助上限也提高到350萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1837.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1860.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那企業這個支持企業辦理訓練方面為了協助企業提升員工的職能那我們已經推動企業人力資源提升計畫補助事業單位辦訓最高200萬元鼓勵投保就業保險之民營事業單位及非營利法人或團體積極投入職能升級115年度訓練計畫將自114年的12月1號起開始受理申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1866.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1876.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那在支援青年就業計畫方面為了鼓勵15歲到29歲未在學且為就業達一定期間的青年積極尋職與穩定就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1878.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1897.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
以推動初次尋職青年穩定就業計畫 又鑒於國際情勢的影響從9月1日起實施支援青年就業計畫放寬適用對象 還有增加補助金額然後於尋職期間提供尋職津貼及就業獎勵合計最高48000元 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1899.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1912.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
以協助青年順利接軌職場那勞工就業通計劃的部分為競速協助失業勞工重返職場勞工部已經訂有僱傭獎註工作崗位訓練還有職務再設計補助等訓練措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1916.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1937.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那也為了因應國際情勢的影響在114年9月30日推動勞工就業通計劃來整合服務的流程放寬適用對象鼓勵雇主雇用受影響產業失業的勞工並同時通過跨域津貼以及就業獎勵協助失業勞工順利再就業那此外勞動部其實也預先準備了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1938.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1960.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
政府部門公共服務上工及民間團體公益服務上工等計畫將是情勢嚴峻程度來適時啟動減緩對就業市場的衝擊未來也將持續依產業與就業情勢變化滾動調整措施穩定我國勞動市場那也謝謝主席還有各位委員的指教那也祝大家身體健康往事如意謝謝謝謝洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1963.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1968.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1971.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1998.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那現在開始詢答做以下宣告第一本會委員會詢答時間是6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記那委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理第四暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第五原則上11點30分處理臨時提案11點截止收案好現在請登記第一位委員陳昭資委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2005.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2030.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長村委好部長早安 部長我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪那但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到那個美國指控 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2031.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2046.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2048.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2066.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2068.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2083.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
產業因應的做法 應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀 幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2084.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2102.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2104.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2118.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
地大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台中市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2119.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2142.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2143.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2160.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個吉安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞讓人家非常的震驚 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2161.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2184.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2185.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2212.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2214.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2241.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2243.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2272.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的那但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣零是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2273.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2295.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2299.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2314.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2315.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2342.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長 這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有財力跟能力去幫移工去付這筆費用但是家庭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2343.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2369.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2370.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2383.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
部長 您這個想法 我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2385.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2406.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2408.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2418.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化職聘的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2419.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2440.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠嘛現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2440.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2464.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面希望部長往這個方向努力部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2469.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2492.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
大家都說股市不斷的創高 創新高景氣很好 你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業現在過去也因為中國的貿易傾銷這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2493.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2519.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以產業之間的差別是有的你說的是正確因為現在除了半導體之外其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖嚇死人就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許就是9月更嚴重越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2520.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2534.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛 雇主身上不是現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2536.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2551.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
減慢休息的話像地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2552.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2567.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解或調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2568.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2591.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2591.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2611.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日更公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2612.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2628.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
其实会有这样的状况那我们跟他比方说上个礼拜我们其实就到中部我自己去跟他座谈我跟大家说我们讲很清楚我们绝对你通报的话我们绝对不会公布个别企业的名字因为对等关税是大家都受害者嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2628.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2654.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
對我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2659.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2674.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
謝謝陳昭志委員發言接下來請林月琴委員發言主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長有請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2681.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2698.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
林委員好 部長早美國關稅雖然還在談判階段可是關稅政策進口的產品的調整還有台幣的匯率的波動還是讓台灣以出口為主的製造業受到衝擊我相信部長應該也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2699.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2726.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以今年3月8月勞動部的確推出了一個僱用安定措施跟強化版讓減班休息的勞工可以申請到我們的差額補貼所以我首先我想問部長目前為止通報減班休息的數量大概有多少增長的幅度是不是有趨緩現在最新的數據在10月1號那是最新的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2728.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2753.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
是8505那相比於前一期9月16號的時候那是增加1000多那9月16號當天因為我們一個月會公佈兩次兩個禮拜公佈一次那9月16號當時公佈的那一次其實增加大概2400多那到10月1號這次的公佈它的增加是到1100所以確實增加的數字有比9月16號來的低 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2755.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2774.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
可是還是增加所以我們還是是用權力戒備的態度我們不會鬆懈我們也不會輕忽但我們也一直在監測這個數據但確實數據有的時候它會有一些它的上下可是我們可能還要看長期的趨勢謝謝部長的努力剛剛也講說確實有成長可是還是比前一個時間點有減緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2777.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2793.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
可是面對關稅的一個微確定性的話預期申請減班休息的數量可能會越來越多所以根據部內的資料目前強化版的雇用安定措施所補助的九大產業就業保險投保人數大概有 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2795.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2815.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
105萬人那他們是目前美國關稅下最可能受到衝擊的潛在勞工當然不是全部都會受到影響可是還是要看關稅的談判的進度跟結果而定所以現在的強化版預計可以接住多少的勞工勞動部又能夠提供多少的量呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2815.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2833.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我跟委員說明這邊講到的105萬絕對不是這105萬都會受到影響是我知道因為有些看到105萬但是絕對不是105萬都會受到影響那其實現在基本上我們並沒有什麼量能上的限制也就是說只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2834.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2857.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有減班休息的狀況然後企業通報然後勞工朋友來跟我們申請甚至我剛剛我們講到如果有這個勞工朋友來說他企業沒有通報其實我們可以把它放入到這個我們的名單裡面那這是剛才陳偉有講到的部分我們會直接把它放到名單裡面那只要放到名單裡面他就可以來跟我們申請強化版的規管安定措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2858.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2880.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
可是部長強化版的僱傭安定措施基金來源是救安基金所以如果編入因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案當中如果這筆特別預算假設沒有通過的話那已經申請減班休息的通報個案的薪資貼補會不會受到影響那勞動部要如何因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2881.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2901.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
跟委員說明強化版國安定措施的經費來源是來自救保跟特別預算兩個都有可是如果假設我剛剛前面問你說那到底可以接住多少你說都不會都沒有量可是經費沒有考量所以我們現在現在大院也在九樓正在審查這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2903.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2923.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
特別預算我們當然希望爭取我們這一次行政院讓我們編列150億的特別預算能夠順利的通過我想這個因為這個錢真的都是來支持勞工來協助勞工的錢對是很重要的對我們希望真的能夠能夠讓這個順利的然後能夠三讀然後讓勞工朋友有一個更大的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2926.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2937.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
在這些受到影響 申請減班休息的勞工裡邊包括了中高齡的就業者 根據勞動部的資料中高齡就業者 覺得45歲以上在製造業中占全體的42.22% |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2940.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2954.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
製造業事實上是關稅的重災區一旦企業實施減班休息也就是他們往往會被列為優先的休息名單我們好不容易通過中高齡及高齡者就業促進法希望讓中高齡成為勞動力來源的新選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2958.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2974.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
以解決我們少子化的問題可是他們可能都是而且他們最主要是他們可能都是每一個家庭經濟支柱而且中高齡可能事實上是這時候是負擔最大的還是可能在念私立大學然後家裡的支出如果他還有房貸的話這些都會是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2976.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3001.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那他需要撫養孩子也可能需要撫養長輩再加上年紀的因素職場本來就很不友善的話如果再因為減班的休息減少收入那就會沒辦法支撐他平常所的一些開銷所以想問部長說這些申請減班休息的勞工當中有多少的中高齡是不是你能夠很充分的去掌握到這個比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3002.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3019.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我想其實因為如果通報的勞工當然是可以講我們當然是可以去進一步去去確認大概有多少比例是中高齡但是就是剛剛委員講其實講的沒有錯其實我們在這一次相關的移營關稅跟勞工的這個就業措施裡面其實我們特別關注中高齡的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3020.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3035.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以其實在我們10月發布了一個計畫叫做勞工就業通在這個勞工就業通計畫裡面我們也特別把幾個服務整合進來其中一個很重要的就是職務在設計因為如果我們要協助中高齡的勞工失業的話要轉業 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3037.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3063.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
轉業的時候他們會特別需要比方像植物在設計這樣子的服務來讓他能夠更適應可能一個新的就業環境所以我們特別把像這樣給整合進來那另外其實我們也考慮到這所以我們其實這段時間一些辦訓所以我們也請發安署在辦訓訓練的過程裡面特別針對希望針對多一些是針對中高齡的勞工他們可能現在所需要的一些技能的訓練來去做課程的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3065.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3082.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們這都是特別思考到說那怎麼樣更多顧及到中高齡勞工的狀況我覺得真的要注意因為我去年在質詢的時候針對勞動議題就已經講過說很多55歲以上就被優退表面上叫優退實際上事實上就是某種程度上資遣 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3082.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3107.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
對他們很多時候事實上是家庭資助者的話通常不利條件那接下來這個關稅的狀況又是比較多時候事實上製造業的又比較多是中高齡那最大衝擊又在中高齡所以我們很擔心所以我也希望勞動部可以去做這樣的一個調查所以也要確定所謂的減班休息是不是真正的雙方合意還是事實上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3108.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3117.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
資方強迫的我覺得如果是強迫的有人來檢舉就是說沒有經過勞工統一的話那這其實就是違反勞基法22條但這是我們會直接開罰的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3119.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3145.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
可是有沒有就說這種也很怕的事實上是通常為什麼過去我們的受僱方會比較不敢去做申訴有時候是被點名做記號的所以對他們來講也是有一些壓力所以我是建議說是不是建立我們的減班休息的通報的年齡的分布統計以外然後能夠掌握到我們中高齡的勞工的一個整個通報數量還有能夠定期去做調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3146.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3175.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
來掌握我們的減班休息的落實的一些狀況第三個事實上還是要強化中高齡就業者的主動關懷這個也是我去年一直再三提醒說55歲以上真的有沒有去了解他們所被優退真的事實上是優退嗎還是事實上是被另外一種支遣的方式只是為了減少因為畢竟如果到的小主管的時候薪水比較高的話他把他優退他再請一個薪水比較低的我覺得都會很不利於我們的中高齡的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3176.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3196.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那再來就是想問是說整個面對職災的勞工政府到底能做什麼因為目前勞工職業災害保險跟保護法裡面在111年的5月1號正式施行之後勞動部在持續推動這個所謂的FARP |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3199.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3219.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
跟地方政府來配合關懷勞工那到底這個主動關懷到底是什麼尤其事實上從你們的調查裡邊也就是說你們職業災害的失能勞工就業關懷調查就發現說他們平均緩肥職場要12.2個月甚至復工的實際計畫的協商職災的人都是曠日廢死 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3222.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3248.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以我們想問這110年的調查有它的意義在才會知道有12.2個月可是110年調查之後就不再調查所以想問說關懷調查有沒有要再啟動才能夠了解你的主動關懷到底有沒有辦法落實而且這種關懷到底能不能是讓他們能夠是得到因為有數據才能夠有後邊的對應措施所以想問說你這個職業災害失能的勞工就業關懷調查要持續調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3252.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3254.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
因為我們要知道它到底有沒有能夠發揮效用 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3255.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3281.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個跟穆仁說明其實對於職財勞工的關懷我想這件事情是我們一定會持續做的甚至我們包括職安署跟地方的勞政單位其實我們都有相關專業的人力持續在做這個他是用一個個案管理的方式在處理所以他可能不是不一定是一次性的調查對這個部分來說是持續性要做的工作那至於重返職場的時間因為確實不同的勞工他的狀況不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3284.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3305.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
有些如果他比較嚴重的他就需要比較久一點的時間有的時候甚至我們也看到一些案例是勞工明明他覺得他還沒有好他還需要持續的在做這個復原的休養的狀況但是資方一直覺得你就趕快上工你趕快上工然後這裡面產生的衝突我們也看到一些案例是這種狀況所以確實這個能夠重返職場的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3311.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3336.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以部長相對的關懷協助你這一個有一個段落叫關懷協助所以你的主動關懷協助就很重要所以我覺得政府應該發揮主動的服務的精神一定是主動因為我們甚至是用個案管理的方式來做這個關懷那也包括統整相關的資源能夠讓職災勞工可以了解他可以有什麼資源包括就醫的資源 保險的資源或者是哪些部分他其實可以來做使用這是用個案管理的方式就用這個案例為 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3338.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3359.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
實案為例 就是說 職災的勞工家屬在一審判定的時候不是職災 當初你們勞動部也是判定他不是職災可是二審的時候判定卻又是職災那不管最後三審結果為何 這個據案發時間已經三千天了請問部長 這之間的所有損失都可以申請嗎如果不行的話 有沒有其他方式可以幫助職災家屬呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3361.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3371.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那而且旨在勞工個案主動服務在此時有沒有主動介入因為剛剛講的關懷協助是這樣蠻重要的所以過去有沒有介入如何質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3373.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3397.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
還是要跟委員說其實我們的PASS都希望能夠都是處在主動協助但如果有做得更好的空間那我們也願意來做一些檢討但的確我們PASS的同仁是很辛苦但是有更好的空間我們都願意來檢討那這個案子我們非常非常關注確實他一審跟二審的判決不一樣所以我們也跟當時我們也跟這些相關的包括他的協助的團體來跟他們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3400.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3415.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
如果需要做一些重新的檢視我們也很願意來做重新的檢視來做相關的認定部長可能未來真的要更進一步的是如果真的個案能夠及早去介入的話那事實幫助大概就不會要讓他走到司法還要透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3416.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3431.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我覺得一審二審然後讓他等待三千天最後得到的結果呢假設是最後第三審是實在認定的話真的這些損失到底要跟誰要這個三千天確實蠻長的所以這也是這個勞工很辛苦的很辛苦的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3432.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3457.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
但是的确在三年前灾保法上路以后现在整体的机制是有更完备包括PAS它要协助掌握跟整合的一些服务也更完备但我们最近其实也在做相关的检讨能够给职灾劳工什么更多的制度性的支持我们应会尽快来把给职灾劳工更制度性的支持我们会尽快的来这个政策研拟到一个阶段我们就会来公开 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3457.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3481.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
所以最後我的建議就是請盤點那個FAP專業服務人員的人數進行適當的分配還有檢討現行的給付機制及時保障我們的勞權還有縮短真的行政程序有時候聽說派案通報之後派案還要三個月所以讓他們可以加速重返職場如果他們能夠身體狀況OK的話能夠重返職場的話應該加速我們都願意來檢討謝謝署長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3487.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3503.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
謝謝林月琴委員發言接下來請邱振軍委員發言我們就請我們紅部長請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3508.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3535.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
教練早部長好部長我請問勞動部在我們10月1日的時候公布最新的這個減班休息統計那全國共有398家企業8505名勞工比9月中旬再增加了65家1171人可是我看到你們報告裡面在寫較前期平緩一些我不知道我想請教一下就是我們這平緩的意思是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3535.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3562.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為前一期9月16號的時候那一天那次的公佈是增加2471人那在10月1號的時候人數是增加1171人那我們這個因為是慢慢往上漲嗎人數還是增加的但是增加的數字比前一次公佈來的少一些可是他的整個數字看起來是那一個月增加了3000多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3563.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3569.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對 所以它比上一個月來講所以我的意思說我們跟前一期比較的話的確它增加的人數有崩潰一些你看這個圖是你們畫的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3571.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3595.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
對不對 你看那個線這個怎麼會覺得會平緩呢所以我覺得很奇怪那個 秋遠如果可以仔細看我們那個寫的句子如果前一張投影片你是指前一次嘛 對不對跟前一期9月16號的發佈來比較到了這個9月底嘛那一天那次是增加2400那因為這一次增加是1100你看那個線也看起來很陡耶怎麼會平緩這走路會跌倒耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3596.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3613.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們沒有要我們不會因為這個數字的起伏而放鬆我們其實都是全力戒備在這個事情上我其實沒有要指責什麼意思我只是說有時候用詞這有點讓人家覺得說你這個是在粉飾太平的感覺沒有 我們絕對沒有要粉飾太平所以因為我們看到這個絕對沒有粉飾 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3614.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3638.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這個已經從你這個來看就是從全國無薪加是245家4863人9月底變成398家8505人這個數字一個月增加了3600多人那增幅高達75%所以當然我們從4月份來看它的整個是非常明顯的那整個來看沒有一個月是下降的這個確實說我們應該要多注意一下這個狀況那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3643.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3661.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
部長你認為這個還會往上漲嗎我覺得這都要從趨勢來看那我覺得我們要有目前您看這樣子我們關稅的影響狀況已經達到高峰了沒有我自己是認為我們其實都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3663.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3689.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我們都不應該去預設最好的狀況是怎樣一個行政部門的角度來說我們一定是預設如果狀況還會惡化那我們的因應措施能不能夠讓勞工或讓企業得到幫助我們應該都是要從這個角度我也看到了你們在報告裡面寫到從4月9號到10月1號我們勞動力發展署已經仿視了20619家這點我當然給你們肯定只是說那我想請問一下就是說有多少家 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3690.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3710.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
目前是正在實施減班或休息的又有多少家未來有可能會走向這個五金有沒有評估過跟文說明現在實施減班休息總共是398大概快400家那我們的確現在看到在這些實施減班休息家屬裡面比較集中在幾個行業 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3712.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3730.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那大概幾個我們在報告裡面有提到包括像金屬製品製造那機械設備製造業然後也包括這個其他運輸工具那也包括像這個汽車零組件那這幾個行業是現在看到減慢休息比較集中的行業 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3732.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3759.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
對 所以我們也針對這幾個行業也去做特別的關心也掌握他們行業內現在一些變化的動態這也要很謝謝我們發展署各地分署的同仁當然我希望就是說你們在這個過程當中不要只是為了達成這個數字而去做這件事情不是說我看了多少家應該是我們期待看到說我們幫多少家企業解決了問題協助到了多少家企業這才是我們仿似的目的 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3760.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3774.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
跟文說明剛才講我們講到幾個減班休息比較多的行業其實現在我們都有放到我們這個強化版安定措施的行業別裡面也就是現在這些比較多的減班休息的企業其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3776.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3800.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
只要他們有來通報那我們都可以有相關的薪資差額補貼給他們我看到你們在報告裡面講到有76.3293家企業適用這個雇用安定基金的措施那有83.6%大概7106位的勞工可以申請這個薪資差額補貼那我請問一下這個有在領了嗎有有多少人領 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3803.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3820.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
目前來申請的 有多少目前在有申請資格跟我們說明目前有申請資格然後有來申請的大概快接近一半有一半了是不是那另外一半現在我們因為每個來跟我們通報的我們都會去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3820.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3837.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那还有一半是因为他可能还因为我们的规定是要30天后减半休息30天后才能来有的是30天还没到那或者是有些还在补件那也有一些企业他是说他们可能想要三个月来申请一次就是所以可能会有延后来申请的状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3837.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3856.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好 我希望不要說這個措施這個既然做了我們這些企業都沒有得到幫助那我再問一個就是說我發現你們在報告裡面講到有105家不適用這個雇用安定措施的廠商是什麼原因讓他們不適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3857.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3882.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
因為其實我們這個強化版的公安徑措施比較是針對國際的經貿情勢的不確定所以它跟經貿沒有關係的就不受這個就不用協助就對了應該是說我們這個強化版公安措施其實是比較是針對關稅或者國際經貿情勢所影響的那的確有一些企業它實時減慢休息的原因它是直接影響還是間接影響你們這個怎麼區分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3884.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3905.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
相關的影響當然我們都是因為他可能他的產業他的工作他只是做人的下游廠商對不對他並沒有直接影響那這樣的適用嗎我們不是用我們不是用上下游來想我們是用行業別來框定那我們現在有公告的九個行業這九個行業當然很大部分是經濟部來跟我們說就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3906.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3933.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
哪些行業目前因為我們這個關稅的稅率或國際情勢相比於其他國家那包括它供應鏈的分佈的狀態它會受到影響那經營部來跟我們說它會受到影響我們就把它放入行業鏈裡面不啦 我希望這樣啦就是說像這些沒有辦法列入的這些企業我們是不是更要進一步瞭解它是不是真的真的不是因為這個影響因為這個有些會還是會有一些你用行業別來列還是會有一些盲點好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3935.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3949.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我們當然會持續的檢視是不是這個行業比較在擴大我們其實都在滾動的檢討那另外我看到你們那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算裡面我們勞動部總共拿到250億那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3952.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3972.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們的目的就是要穩就業防關稅的衝擊是吧是可是我看到你們裡面有100億是拿去撥補勞保基金我想請問這個跟這個因應國際情勢有什麼關係跟文說明這是兩個部分我們其實原本在行政院在那為什麼不在本預算裡面提呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3973.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3991.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們在行政院編列的過程裡面其實本來就是有150億其實是針對這個關稅的情勢的安定就業那有100億是勞保基金的撥補對這個跟這個特別預算特別預算放這個撥補勞保基金不是有點怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3992.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4017.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
跟委員說明我們當然在公務預算裡面明年的公務預算裡面其實有撥補1200億那當然為什麼還在100億其實我們政府其實對於勞保勞保的水位的支持是我們持續性的不斷的在檢視所以當然我們現在在稅計剩餘下我們認為有一點空間可以再多給勞工的勞保多一點安定跟穩定但是我覺得那你在編預算的時候你1200億不然你就編1300嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4019.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4025.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
你怎麼會在這邊用這個國安任性特別預算裡面來那個呢這讓我們覺得這有點趁火打劫 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4029.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4055.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
委員 這都是兩個都不同的事情委員 這都是支持勞工的經費給勞工的經費絕對不是趁火打錢不過這是兩件事一個是勞退 勞保基金一個是因應國際情勢 這不太一樣委員 因應國際情勢是151那勞保的撥補是100億這兩件事情不是同一個事情我們當然這次好 那我簡單問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4057.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4075.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那這100億裡面有多少錢是進到這些減半倍降薪的勞工口袋裡面沒有 委員還是要說這是兩件事情我們在因應國際情勢是150億那另外100億是勞保的撥補那之前包括也有用特別預算來去做勞保撥補這是我們的財政狀況跟稅劑剩餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4078.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4098.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
如果國家的財政狀況稅計算有一點餘裕的話我想這代表是勞工政府對於勞保財務的一種支持對啦 勞保財務是長期性的問題啦那每年都在撥補的嘛我希望就事論是這個每一件事情我不希望在你夾雜在這個特別預算裡面就很怪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4100.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4117.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
委員這不是夾雜特別預算這是我們是我們財政的狀況稅計剩餘的狀況所以你現在覺得財政狀況很好對不對不是不是財政狀況當然因為財化法修法可是今年的稅計剩餘的確有一點空間那我們就認為應該把這一點空間拿來支持勞工跟勞保 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4118.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4131.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們是站在一個希望只要能夠多支持勞工一點多支持勞保一點我們就願意多做一點因為剛好國際情勢那這樣子看起來我們政府覺得國際情勢越亂越好啊這樣你們才可以趕快來編補趕快多弄點錢這個時候我們大家當然就知道產業受到衝擊我們需要一些經費來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4140.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4158.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那可是你不能說看到立法院好像要給錢了然後我們這些部門趕快你們自己沒不夠的趕快補一補 趕快協議委員 這個錢不是叫立法院給錢這個錢國家的財政是來自於稅收跟稅金對 沒錯啊 但是還是要立法院通過嘛 對不對立法院願意給了嘛 願意給了那當然不會擋嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4160.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4183.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們希望盡力爭取立法院的支持我們當然是不會去擋這種什麼特別預算而且是因應國際情勢這個變化的錢只是說我希望說這筆錢一歸一 二歸二就希望把它弄清楚好不好那個跟委員說明其實朝野的委員也都希望我們在撥補這部分只要能夠多做的都希望能夠多做一些這不一樣的事情當然你如果多做在勞工我全力支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4184.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4193.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這當然都做在勞工勞保撥補當然都是用在勞工身上的你怎麼那麼愛變咧對不對好好講不聽不要講了啦不要講好謝謝邱政軍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4213.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4220.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
接下來請我們廖偉強委員謝謝主席 請洪森安部長來 部長委員好 部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4227.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4240.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
根據行政院長卓榮泰他在10月7號的時候在立法院也證實那目前全國共有398家的事業單位實施減班休息那影響人數達到8505人 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4243.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4267.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那其中跟美國關稅相關的是310家那影響也超過7000人也創了一年半以來的新高那也就是說關稅實施宣布以來的最高點可以看到這個線圖是非常的陡峭那關稅的海嘯已經看來已經要來臨了那其中製造業的佔比呢高達了95%主要也集中在 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4268.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4288.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
機械設備的製造廠大概140家3559人那金屬製品的製造業還有汽車零組件及運輸工具製造業那我還也是想要再問一下那目前為止我們勞動部我們洪部長你要如何評估此波的關稅衝擊對於我國勞動市場的實際影響程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4293.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4318.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
或者更精確的說未來三個未來短期的話啦三個月以內你們的預估是什麼那中長期甚至到一年半一年一年以內預估受影響的人會是怎麼樣的情況還是要還是會如司長所說他受訪的時候講到的訂單回流趨勢在趨緩當中我想要請問一下部長你對於這件事情你的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4319.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4339.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
跟文說 因為的確現在在關稅衝擊產業或勞工就業的評估其實包括學界 包括智庫 包括產業都有很多評估其實我們並不是一份報告我們並不是用一份報告的角度來想而是我們其實只要有相關的評估 我們都會去了解部長我想請問 那你們低中高怎麼評估它 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4340.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4363.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
可是你們應該其實我一直講嘛就是評估要你們一定要有一定的評估不是說不能有誤差那你的低中高你怎麼判斷因為我這樣問的意思是說我大概知道部長你等一下一定會說我們會用最審慎的態度以對可是我覺得這樣子不夠精確也不夠負責任我想要知道的是有沒有明確的評估說低中高你們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4364.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4384.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
低推估中推估高推估因為因為剛剛有講到你們的報告裡面寫到這個笑上一起這個平緩我覺得這的確是讓人家有一種喪事喜辦的感覺沒有絕對不是粉飾太平的感覺絕對不是對我沒有啊我現在要跟你講說你的報告裡面寫出來是這樣讓我們非常憂心你 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4385.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4410.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
低估了這件事情因為有許多的報告說真正的影響可能是年底或是明年甚至是明年一整年對吧那現在才剛開始我就是想要問對於勞動部來講你的評估是什麼你有沒有去做低中高的推估那各自應該怎麼去判斷跟我說我們也看到蠻多產業界的評估認為有可能關稅的衝擊也可能還會有些延遲 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4411.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4427.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
就是說比方說會有一些遞延的狀況遞延的狀況所以我想從政府的角度我們都是去設想相對嚴峻的狀況我覺得這才是負責任對部長你講對了但是你這個還是空話我剛說你沒有去做精確的推估 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4428.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4450.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因為這個趨勢圖嘛 你一直說你們會看趨勢嘛 當然 可是你的回答讓我 讓本席認為啊 這個都沒有真正的聚焦回答出你們究竟有沒有做低中高的推估那這數據到底是什麼呢 因為我剛已經預測你的回答 我們基本上都是 我們會綜合目前產業上面的資訊也包括智庫學界的資訊 所以這是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4451.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4472.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
沒有部長這還是空話我想問你有沒有推估你現在推估的數據有沒有一個有沒有一個真正的趨勢跟文說明這絕對不是空話因為我們是請我們的發展署每個禮拜都必須去update現在最新的產業狀況那可不可以請發展署的署長回答你們有沒有推估就是假設用這個未來的趨勢圖有沒有一個不同的走向你覺得大概會是什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4473.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4487.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們不是用一套推估的方式啦因為因為現在業界或者是智庫相關的推估或者相關的評估很多所以我們是綜合這些資訊然後來做假設相對嚴峻的狀況發生的話我們有那你的嚴峻狀況的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4489.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4510.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
當然我們必須假設嚴峻的狀況是這個數字還會增加嗎那增加的你覺得是多少有沒有一個數字比如說到年底你預估多少到明年初預估多少那你打算怎麼應對部長之所以我要求這件事情是因為所有的政策你也有遞延的狀況發生比如說你現在預備的這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4513.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4537.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那等到真正發生的時候你沒準備好還要通過很多行政程序的時候受傷的還是勞工這就是為什麼我一直說我們當然要準備那所以我想我就是真的很具體的想問部長因為我們其實已經花了大概五分鐘的時間你一直不跟我講具體你們推估的狀況是什麼就算你說你用最嚴峻的情況來看待那我也覺得很好部長可以對著大家說或是在這個質詢的時候說你預計嚴重的狀況是什麼會達到多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4542.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4556.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好 你預估比較嚴重的狀況我們認為這個產業影響的狀況不一定是一個數字但是我們就是會用我們會設想相對嚴峻的狀況我們都要把它設想進來的這樣子的態度跟立場來去規劃我們相關支持的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4557.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4574.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
其實部長因為你們說你們每兩個禮拜公布一下這個公布這個數據嘛對不對對之所以要公布數據第一個讓社會大眾知道狀況第二個是要讓大家預測未來可能是什麼狀況然後好做因應所以包含部尤其是你是第一線的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4575.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4591.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
部會首長尤其是勞動部我們已經花了很多時間你還是不願意回答說你們的嚴峻狀況到底是什麼我很不好意思因為我覺得這個的確很重要我很希望部長可以誠實的面對或者是說告訴我你們到底有沒有推估還是你沒有推估 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4591.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4605.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那你如果沒有推估我可不可以告訴你說你們回去推估三個程度的狀況可以嗎跟文說明我們是持續不斷的評估甚至最新的這些因為其實你前面上前面的這個質詢的委員你有說這個我們要看趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4607.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4624.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
對啊 要看趨勢啊那你的趨勢到底是什麼趨勢是往未來走的現在這個是已經繼承的事實可是你明明也講說你們會看趨勢我們當然必須去做未來這個數字還會增加的準備就一個行政部門的角度來說我們當然必須做這個數字還會增加的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4625.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4639.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
當然那當然對那你的準備是準備多少嗎就是說你預估是多少部長你不能一直跟我繞啊這個我們光一個問題我這個我就問不出來你到底推估的是多少跟我們說明因為其實就業衝擊的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4641.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4664.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
第一波最前面可能像是減班休息那當然狀況不好的時候可能會沒有你講的是我現在問你你預估的是什麼然後然後現在的推估到年底我們我們剛剛一直說過你看了各種模型那那你可不可以告訴我你看了哪些模型你預估有人說比較悲觀比較樂觀到年底到明年是多少你有沒有做好準備我們想要知道是這個然後你的趨勢你有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4665.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4686.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
你腦子裡面有沒有想說我們可能現在你剛說最嚴峻的狀況請問最嚴峻的狀況你認為是多少跟文說明齁其實當然這個業界裡面相關的評估有些比較樂觀有些比較沒那麼樂觀好那你講一下樂觀和沒那麼樂觀是多少就比方說可能會不會關稅的訂單的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4688.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4700.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
會有遞延的狀況我們剛剛講過 對那所以我想不一定它是一個數字我說那整個影響的衝擊的狀況它不一定是一個數字可是我們都會來預先部長我想要說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4701.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4721.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們今天之水排這個案就是要擔心說未來的衝擊會衝擊勞工的失業更加嚴峻因為看到現在走勢圖已經變得非常陡峭可是我想要很遺憾的說我今天已經問了八分鐘的時間部長沒有辦法講出一個到年底你預估可能的狀況跟明年的狀況可能是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4722.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4749.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我覺得我非常遺憾這個身為勞動部的部長組織機關怎麼會不能回答這個問題而且一直避著回答呢我覺得即便你告訴大家說可能很嚴峻我覺得這對於社會也有一個預期的心態可以去做準備嘛然後也可以讓人家知道說好我們部長照著這個嚴峻的狀況來做準備我們可以安心我們可以告訴大家說好這個勞動部會充分的準備結果很遺憾我為了8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4750.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4768.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
居然講不出來我甚至說那你告訴我一個樂觀的不樂觀的是怎麼樣我想部長我的諮詢的問題應該沒有很多跟文說明比方說如果失業的狀況比較多所以我們也準備了這個勞工就業通的計劃勞工就業通的計劃就是來針對失業勞工他如果要轉職 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4769.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4786.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那既然你準備了這些計畫難道你不是有一個根據嗎就是說我今天看到這個數據了我的根據是什麼你要準備這些計畫根據是什麼好我跟你說這個問題因為我後面還有很多題目結果8分鐘來我們的部長沒有辦法回答這個問題我想要請問勞動部統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4791.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4815.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
尤其是這一次大台中地區成為無薪假最大的重災區有117家那有2598人實施無薪假 佔全國總數的30.5%其次是台南市55家1328人彰化縣市35家1135人那其實基本上光大台中地區第一名就超過了第二名第三名的總和 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4816.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4828.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那這也反映中部的這個製造業的確是受創最重那我想要為這個部分來特別請命請問這部分有沒有什麼可以特別因應的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4829.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4850.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
跟文說的確我們現在看到中部是現在在減班休息裡面通報數字最多的區域這也是為什麼其實我們在我自己在上週其實我也到中部跟中部的很多的傳統產業我們當面的做溝通跟座談來了解大家的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4851.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4873.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那我們怎麼樣來支持大家的需求所以我們也討論到很多減半休息的問題那怎麼來支持因為的確現在有一些產業跟很多的勞工他們對於我們現在的支持措施還不是這麼瞭解他們還不是那麼瞭解那也包括產業的宣傳還不足這個相關的對產業跟的確我們在這些座談的過程因為我們有對工會勞工工會的宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4874.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4903.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
也有對產業的宣傳 我們的確現在本席有參與過 他們說你們可不可以做一些簡單的圖卡可不可以就是更明確的告訴他們可以怎麼告訴他們工會的成員是 對吧應該是比較早期 現在其實都有相關的圖卡跟相關計畫的措施可是最重要的事情是 我想我們還是 我是直接的我們是直接到這個中部的現場那因為很多的產業的這個企業界的這些高階的主管 其實根本反映了蠻多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4904.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4927.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那我們也都把這些問題收集下來一一的來希望來協助大家那具體的方案有沒有什麼我剛問的問題具體的方案是什麼第一個我們當然現在一個很重要的去支持大家減班休息的狀況當然是我們這個強化版的公安令措施的薪資差額補貼我們從過去是五成的補貼現在拉到七成 拉到七成 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4928.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4946.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那甚至其實也可以讓企業來申請這個我們的再充電的計畫那以前是再充電計畫跟公安訂措施是不能併領的我們這次把它改成是可以併領的最多是可以領到這個勞工員們的薪資好 謝謝部長那勞動部在投資青年就業方案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4947.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4972.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
初次尋職青年穩定就業的計畫從112年到113年花費超過3億但是就業比率卻從67%下降至52%而且其中半數的青年於核發尋職津貼後不能夠連續就職滿90天進而導致青年失業率也是超過全國平均失業率的兩倍有餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4973.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4991.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那在薪資層面呢勞發署投入了57億的經費執行徵好新方案希望提高青年畢業後的薪資但是110年到112年的三年期間其實青年初次任職卻只有領取基本薪資者平均大概是25%的水平 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4993.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5015.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
所以綜合上面我的意思就是說青年面對就這個面對他就業率低薪資低的情況喔勞動部投入大筆的經費成效看起來不是很不是很好喔我想要說綜合關稅的衝擊這些受影響的產業本來應該可以開缺嘛成為吸引青年人就業的管道但是現在面臨減班休息的狀況也 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5016.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5034.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
就這個自顧不暇所以他們也不可能所謂的開缺那面對青年的這個困境那也尤其剛剛說中部重災區到現在中部青年的困境部長有沒有想法怎麼改善跟恩文說沒有那因為協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5035.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5052.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
協助群職的青年我覺得這部分會有兩個部分第一個我們希望協助青年進入職場這是第一段第二段是希望進入職場的時間能夠持續就是說是一個比較穩定狀況的就業所以委員在這邊看到的狀況是我們在這裡面蠻多數據其實我們是有協助他第一段有進入到職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5053.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5068.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
可是的確會有一些青年他在這個職場裡面的穩定性還是有一段落差所以他可能工作了幾個月比方一兩個月他最後又是離職的狀況所以我想這部分我們還要再來努力我們還要再來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5069.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5085.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那部長這部分可不可以再提供本席辦公室你們的努力改善的檢討報告可以 所以我們其實這次在關稅的這個因應裡面我們其實也把我們這個初次尋職青年的穩定就業計畫我們也做了加碼 也做了再強化也是考慮到這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5086.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5109.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
其實部長我還是想要回去講我今天蠻擔心的因為因為你說你會檢討這些狀況可是我就是很擔心連原本你的預估的狀態預估的衝擊狀態到底多少好像你都不能表達所以我要回去剛剛說我第一個問題我們剛花8分鐘的問題我也想要拜託部長今天你沒辦法回答出來可是會後可提供本席辦公室你們預估的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5111.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5140.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
比較樂觀的情況跟比較悲觀的情況可以嗎我想我們我還是要跟委員說這個所謂的預估跟評估它不一定是一個數字那我們會用一個相對嚴峻的情境如果不是數字的話那剛剛那些圖就沒有任何意義了所以我是認為是這樣你們必須要誠實的面對自己的狀況我們才可以改善所以我在這裡沒有要再給你究責這件事我希望可以會後給本席辦公室你們自己內部開會我相信你們一定有討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5141.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5156.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
請給我你們討論的你們認為的嚴峻狀況你們要怎麼應對的嚴峻狀況的那個數字然後我們才會回來好好講說你今天提供這些方案是不是真的可以解決這樣的情況 可以嗎我們來看一下怎麼表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5159.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5187.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好因為這個跟我接下來這題有很大的關係有很多的家庭工廠很多小型的公司這個公司包含他自己個人是5到10個人遠遠不到大量解雇的範圍所以等於通報上他可能不會被納入減班休息受影響的計畫那但這樣的小型工廠其實在台灣是普遍存在請問部長這樣黑數你沒有統計到嗎如果沒有統計到受影響的統計數字是不是也會失真實際上影響的狀況有沒有可能更嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5189.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5208.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
確實當然可能可能會存在這個因為這可能如果委員按照委員紅線畫的這部分其實是歇業的廠商那如果是歇業廠商他可能就會是之前通報是如果是歇業的話那就是歇業就是之前的部分了這裡有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5208.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5227.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
因真正官場歇業的企業廠商及失業勞工的黑數遠比通報者還多對 所以我意思是說因為這一條紅線畫的是官場歇業嘛它不是只是訂單減少而已嘛所以那可能就會是在之前通報的狀況下所以剛剛也有那個失業失業不是就是也是相關的數據嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5229.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5245.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以我們剛討論失業的數據目前整體所以有沒有可能有就是統計因為你之前好像也有報導你有說也有可能有這種黑數的問題就是可能的確會有一些企業有些企業他有減半休息但他沒有通報這當然有這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5246.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5261.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
好那再來就是剛剛有講到你們之前你們說因應要因應美國對等關稅的支持勞工就業案推動的要點裡面規劃六大工作那有一個是維持僱傭安定那你之前是先開放三個業別的申請嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5261.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5280.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那7月的時候本席也有質詢過要求未來擴大適用的產業那你當時也有承諾說你會擴大所以的確目前為止你們增加到9個業別對不對那所謂受影響的傳統產業還有包含其實現在還有包含不少被遺漏的包含鋼鐵包含水泥造紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5280.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5299.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
建材營造或是玻璃陶瓷化工業我想也遠遠不止這九個業別所以部長你這部分還有沒有相關的評估有沒有要納入或者是沒有納入的原因這些的跟文說因為我們相關的這個行業別當然一個部分很重要的這個行業別的來源是來自經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5299.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5312.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
因為經濟部對產業的動態當然他們有一個這個產業主管機關的部門在負責這個事情所以我們其實關於這個公告的頁別其實我們也是持續在滾動的在檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5314.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5324.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
對 所以你們還是也會再看到事實的狀況你們會再擴大不會只聽經濟部的這個分析你們自己勞動部也會主動的調查我們會主動的來滾動的檢視那當然我們也會跟經濟部討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5330.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5352.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好 那我們希望說你們繼續滾動的這個要及時的反映這些相關的業別像我剛剛提到這些業別他們應該也是受衝擊的產業可以請你們回去針對這些這個業別再去做評估可以嗎是 當然我們都來掌握 對好 再來就是勞動部將減班休息的工資這個差額從五成到七成嘛對不對 剛剛你有提到然後最長六個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5353.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5381.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
但是雖然有提升但吸引力不高最終政策成效不佳的結果也反映出來所以根據媒體報導目前你們剛說充電再出發訓練以及勞工再充電計畫參與率僅有6%成效不彰也呼應了本席的評估那請問你們要怎麼提供勞工的參訓的意願然後是不是要進一步考慮放寬申請的這個條件或是提高補助額度還是你們認為只是僅僅的宣傳不佳而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5382.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5387.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
跟委員說明你剛才講的薪資差額補貼跟這個充電債出發的這是兩個計畫這是不同的計畫之前綠豆不加現在的確在充電債出發的這個實施來參與的人數是比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5398.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5415.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那比較低有幾個原因我們內部也做了檢討第一個當然是宣傳的部分所以有很多的工會跟我們說希望我們擴大宣傳包括宣傳的資源其實真的很多工會都跟我們講這件事情所以真的我也要請大院來支持我們相關的一些宣傳的經費這是第一個我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5418.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5427.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那第二個是的確一些企業他們說他們現在在一個比較辛苦的狀況他可能不一定自己有辦法現在來辦訓因為充電債出發的計畫是勞工參與訓練那如果企業辦訓的話我們會給企業辦訓的補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5435.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5457.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那勞工可以領參訓的津貼所以他的前提是有個參訓這件事情那確實的確會有些企業說他在這個階段他很辛苦所以他可能不一定那麼有能力能夠辦訓好 部長這個部分第一個你們要去檢討執行率的差別這個是為什麼執行率這麼低這短期的部分可是另外其實後面本學還有兩個題目但是我知道時間的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5458.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5472.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
其實現在有這個產業轉型也有很大的問題對吧現在產業轉型是一個問題然後再來你短期我也想要講到評估譬如說現在台美的關係他們說晶片50 50它可能會導致我們整個半導體產業要移去 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5474.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5495.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
美國那我想要請問這些高科技人才轉移的時候你們有沒有一些衝擊的評估然後你要怎麼因應先我們沒有辦法把這個話題展開可是我想要提醒部長其實你這些這些半訊充電再出發有一個很重要背後的政策目的也是希望勞工轉型升級對不對幫助到台灣的產業轉型升級 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5497.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5516.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以你這個應該要一併的同步去討論再來就是說你的辦訓的這些項目是不是符合未來我們這些勞工產業轉型的時候或是產業的需求他的技能有沒有真的符合這些事情然後再來有沒有吸引力告訴他說你們要來上這些課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5517.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5519.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我覺得這必須要一併的去討論因為現在我們的衝擊非常的大除了剛剛的傳統產業接下來就是半導體產業我們也討論到你的短期 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5531.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5552.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
應對到這些高科技人才的轉移他對我們台灣的衝擊會是什麼我們的這個勞動力的政策是什麼我們有沒有可能看遠一點把這個危機你怎麼樣未來要怎麼樣再吸引他們回來或者是在我們的內部怎麼樣讓我們現在既有的勞工要再升級我想這要部長要一併的討論那我今天質詢就到這裡謝謝謝謝我們廖偉強委員也謝謝洪部長接下來我們請王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5568.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5573.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好 謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5578.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5601.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
王委員好部長好今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度那第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5602.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5629.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號包括媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5629.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5652.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那以製造業占9成5 比較多那減班的休息的產業也非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點增緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5654.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5670.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5670.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5697.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟網友說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5698.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5725.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王遠剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5726.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5745.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5746.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5765.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
是 我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對於勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對於我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5766.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5795.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5796.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5810.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷檔式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5812.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5827.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5828.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5855.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣的好處就是可以控制更多機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5856.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5878.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5879.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5901.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5902.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5921.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
一個就是建立中高齡勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5922.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5949.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
另外就是試行寒性退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可不可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5950.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5963.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
好 那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視職務在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會希望他會需要在這個職場上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5966.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5985.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
跟他之間有一些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發安署在那植物災設計的部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物災設計做得更到位這是第一個那第二個是委員剛剛其實講到的這幾個建議我想我自己都 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5986.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6008.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟研議這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6010.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6027.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也了解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6028.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6044.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6045.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6059.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人士來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6060.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6075.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期最終讓我們可以掌握到職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6076.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6097.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
尤其是對於一些我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職涯生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好 跟務委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6099.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6115.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
其實多元培地就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6118.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6137.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會以上工的人次來作為思考那我們也正在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6138.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6158.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6161.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6176.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓他一些更加更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好那就大家一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6195.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6204.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
台主席在場的委員先進列協政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6209.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6226.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
座位好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的減班休息我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓這個肉圓的陶雞已經做了幾十年之前有段時間我就看一個年輕的雞他說這是什麼我們學生啊怎麼會在這裡他就聽到我現在在找陶爐現在沒有事來我倒卡手 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6238.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6264.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我說很好 很好啊有找到介紹嗎 好啊 委員你有沒有跟我們介紹空氣很歡迎過一陣子呢 就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦啊 你老闆勒 工廠吃滷肉啊 不錯啊但是呢 偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢 都沒有看到他兒子啊我說 欸 你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔 現在工廠喔 生意很好喔在加班喔 加班賺這麼重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6265.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6289.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
過一陣子 拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了就現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛 他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了 我說你們學生現在怎麼會有時候看到他他們沒來跟他打招呼 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6290.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6310.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
他說沒辦法啦 現在沒加班 要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去 他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼 今天工廠休息 但是呢前天晚上呢 人家倒上火 上家屬我請教一下喔 這種小家庭 他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候 晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎 補貼家用 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6315.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6333.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好 現在問題來了問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6334.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6357.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
維持生計 現在的工廠說不用五天了 三天了要給你兩天 要給你兩天是什麼在家裡敷豆芽 還是幫忙做家事 你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作 減一下因為要給你兩天嘛 在家裡沒事要賺錢 可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6359.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6368.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
當然現在是可以的現在是可以的嘛好那換成你是老闆我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦你們工廠喔有請外賣嗎他說有啊 有請外賣啊現在咧現在啊 現在就兩段很久了我們省南非喔要先給 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6380.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6404.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
先給外國人休息 為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他住的地方我南非部分 我就叫外國人先休息說你們外國人休息都做什麼 說真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河 有在欠人的 對不對做農的 做稀土的 他去幫忙 這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6409.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6432.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這樣可以嗎不然你要跟臺灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個臺灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息大概都是大家不是很樂意去見到的狀況如果你是老闆 臺灣老闆你會怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6436.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6463.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊 但是我覺得這個我們整個人看就像老闆這麼大心對不對 他們本來要外銷燃費嘛現在燃費太窮 經常都要變少嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛 要多了就給他給一些時間 要給他出名的老闆讓他今天能夠做工廠 做事情 做事頭 有團修理嘛好 現在問了請問一下 您說解萬秀一個7000多人 有沒有報案 他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6466.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6492.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就所有的問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6493.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6520.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
現在我們現在啊農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢但是台灣人喔你如果說過去喔我們中小企業中小工廠啊你如果說出來有淨產的喔你工廠檢測的事情你會回去出來什麼 倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活他不會說啊 做不來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6521.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6547.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
所以誰會做 移工在做啦 好 往下看所以我們那時候呢 說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在 我就死了嘛 我就去找房子但是我已經休息了 我來幫忙做出來的工程我們都有正產的 我來看他 掛紅來啦 做一些事情那這種情況下 很普遍 我們整個有一個叫做茅頭啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6548.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6565.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
碼頭就是什麼公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌很多在旁財 你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信 有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁都是碼頭去救的 它有固定的卡啦現在什麼人 總裁要去辦幾桌 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6567.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6590.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
一半五十塊就一半三十塊就他就夠電的卡銷他會去繳那樣子都知道了往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6594.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6623.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好 那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好 請告訴我 具體來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6625.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6642.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
依法才能開放本國的勞工 沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查 上教室塞車 上會 可以嗎啊 移工來不能撐勤那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議 哪些違法 請告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6646.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6670.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
署長趕快你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是 報告委員基本上移工的開放當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以有哪些風險哪些爭議目前就無法有明定就是就法律規定怎樣單一僱主單一僱主法律規定嘛對不對是的好那你告訴我法律規定之外有哪些爭議有哪些違法先不講違法哪些爭議哪些失誤的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6673.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6681.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
除了法律的規定之外有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明因為當時義工政策開放的事我不是問你當時我問你現在啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6682.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6704.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以所以說我剛剛就講了嘛 老闆說就是不影響國人就業所以我減班休息 外勞先給他休息嘛啊 移工休息了那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工人休息的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊 要讓他們倒卡笑一下可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6706.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6721.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛我說哪些爭議啦有哪些實務的困難啦除了你剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙影響到誰的就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6723.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6736.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
影響到誰的就業你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個委員是這樣子幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6737.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6753.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們現在對農業移工其實這樣是開放的是開放我知道好了 告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上往下看 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6755.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6781.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
現在呢 農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚 他就搶了他說 舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁了填提之下他提出了這個案子啦他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6781.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6791.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看因為以前是這樣僱傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6792.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6818.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有他什麼有他的間歇性有他的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊手沒工啦紅萊收完工都贏的啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭好責啦所以我就要怎樣往下看再往下看啊往回往回 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6820.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6841.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
往回看再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上往上好這個情況就是這樣子農業有他的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6842.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6869.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼游牧民族哪裡在採茶葉我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6871.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6894.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我好像大工手啦 吃土雞睡土雞啦 包大架啦 對吧有速食嘛 但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工 我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡 整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下 那為什麼移工要做這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6896.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6919.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救護法的原本管制框架至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一僱主的這個框架 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6920.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6941.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以我就說整個問題要留在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啦他要賺錢 他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎一天多少錢嗎其實蠻多的兩千七條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6943.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6971.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
三千的也有啦 看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊他有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工我們有在漆鼻的 去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後七點農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝八點去上工做到了五點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6973.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7001.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7002.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7024.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他不用逃逸 他不用失聯為什麼 因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了他就不會長大而且呢 這個老公來講 同樣回去怎麼樣工廠包大隻 工廠包吃住那這個工廠吃住的時候 誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛我告訴你 你的工廠 我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠 我會貼你嗎 我當然也貼你 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7029.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7044.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸不會失聯往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7045.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7068.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務 務農的外移工啊 安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7072.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7086.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7089.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7115.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個會館我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是直接講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7116.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7134.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有可是對我們農業很大的幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7135.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7146.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7147.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7174.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
但是這些移工竟然請啊你可能 美女就恢復啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我不會把他遣散 我不會嘛我希望這些移工的繼續在我的工廠欸 申請移工不簡單耶那既然這樣子 有人隔壁出兵有欠工的他去幫倒卡車 給他夾兩三千 賺一下對不對 都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠 能夠好管理有什麼不好 署長請告訴我什麼不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7176.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7197.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
勞保署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請勞保署回答請勞保署回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7200.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7217.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們有 是 鮑委員我們有一程序成合那是不是 有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7219.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7242.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
講了一些空空的問題什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以部長回去研究一下可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7244.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7260.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下 謝謝謝謝中加兵委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7266.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7279.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
的確我們那個中南部尤其是到南投的時候還有這個在離山這種農業季的時候非常多的這樣的相關的問題好那再來請林淑芬委員發言宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7294.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7298.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7305.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7327.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關暨邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7330.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7358.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7360.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7377.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soul farm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7380.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7396.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7397.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7420.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這一些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7421.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7443.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
可是在今年這個時候這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來這個姿勢體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7445.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7467.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withhold release order要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7468.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7483.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7486.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7507.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7510.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7525.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不少你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7528.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7549.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7551.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7573.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易 對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面 被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個 你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個 你出口轉賣 退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣 不要到我美國來第三個 你放棄這些貨物銷毀 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7575.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7586.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP它會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7587.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7609.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7614.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7637.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
棕櫚油被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽棕櫚油 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7643.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7651.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7656.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7684.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7687.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7690.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我們講馬來西亞 不要再講他們的中旅遊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7692.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7713.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這個還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove他包含啦這個退還外籍工人的仲介費他被發布了這個戰扣令以後他馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費支付了賠償金改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7717.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7736.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊 超過一年以上CBP才解除他可是你知道他損失多少錢嗎他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7746.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7750.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
應該 我記得是上億不是 不止在 準是36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7756.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7776.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈暫扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7777.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7796.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
勞資是息息相關的你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7796.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7810.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我質詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7812.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7841.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7843.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7865.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個招聘的費用 相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7869.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7896.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候不要忘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7896.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7924.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
還有兩篇報導都是Peter Benson當時2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7926.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7954.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7955.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7982.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是Peter Benson他在2025年今年3月 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7984.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7999.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
的確對台灣又做了我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車 衛星而今年它很具體巨大就在它的調查裡面它針對好幾家包括電子產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8002.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8018.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工他們訪談了吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8022.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8035.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
應該是 他應該在場外是訪談我有看到那篇報導對啊 很多個詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了但是報道 整篇報道我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們捷安特訪談了20名以上20名以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8038.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8063.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8065.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8088.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8089.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8103.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8106.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8124.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長 針對這個事情我一直講知識體大 可是你怎麼回應你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案 講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8130.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8152.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
勞動部已經著手研議 強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計畫期望可協助企業辨識 評估風險 進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說的好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊 不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8154.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8174.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8179.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8199.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
來 國際規範呢 就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第1款 第1項 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8202.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8224.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8226.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8251.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了 這些都講很多年第一個 虐待弱勢第二個 欺騙第三個 扣留工資第四個 債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十 第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8253.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8264.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8265.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8281.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8283.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8305.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8305.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8309.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
延後一年那也是一樣所以我們勢必要面對這個問題所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷地用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8322.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8341.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8342.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8371.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們有進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有駐場但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個Peter Benson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8372.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8399.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8401.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8420.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8422.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8440.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
如果你這個大企業指標企業你都不敢勞檢都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8442.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8460.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8463.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8481.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8483.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8510.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8511.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8536.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8538.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8560.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟各位說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延展中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8561.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8564.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
你的國對國均可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8576.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8594.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8597.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8623.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標要設定有幾個國對國的職聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8624.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8649.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8653.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8668.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們其實現在 所以是為什麼我們現在提出了一個 你知道韓國全部都是國對國之平嗎 韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在 不是牛布化是蝸牛化 沒有 不 應該是停留在原地 1000個 1000個 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8672.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8690.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8692.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8699.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少 1000這樣子有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8714.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8735.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8737.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8740.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這是在這件事在殖民上面的重點但是國家退位30年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標那我現在講的就是說你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8752.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8776.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
丹麥這個記者Peter Benson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎不只 他只指台灣的汽車零組件 電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險而制度面 我剛剛講了 制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8779.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8790.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國執聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多 那法制面你要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8792.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8815.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8816.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8839.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
沒有成績 至於我們三年關 兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在告訴你 這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括建鵬 還包括新光芳 新鮮還包括永德 美麗達 振興橡膠還包括健林 金碩 聖品 愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8843.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8862.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本 環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8862.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8866.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8886.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8901.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
他不是 我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8904.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8909.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸循否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8927.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8955.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標蘇芬委員謝謝我覺得林蘇芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林蘇芬委員具體你的目標你的數字和你們要做的事情這個部分請洪部長這個要馬上做了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8956.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8983.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
好謝謝我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬委員發言我們重新宣告待黃國昌委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席有請部長請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8990.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9006.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
不知道時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概實施的人數是8500多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9009.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9026.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9031.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9060.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
平均每個人五千多平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9062.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9086.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9087.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9114.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9115.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9128.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
也得不到一個具體的答案那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9130.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9145.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9146.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9168.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給勞工的大概多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9171.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9189.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們目前其實在特別預算裡面是150億是 全部給勞工嗎當然全部都給勞工有一些當然有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工你給勞工的數額大概多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9191.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9211.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9218.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9229.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
對然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來 業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年36個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9246.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9271.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
16年底 對 就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多 兩年半所以總共是18個月24 30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9272.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9288.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9290.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9305.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
有發出這樣子的聲音 認為說勞動部就跟他們對接 跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求 時間太晚了這個媒體有報導了我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到 也有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9306.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9322.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般署站的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9323.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9341.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況那多少數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9343.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9371.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報 但是 對這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在 對我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9372.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9399.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
難以估計跟委員報告我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積欠工資但是我們積欠工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減半休息對 但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9399.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9422.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題嘛你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了那第二個事情我關心的事情是說那沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9423.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9448.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9449.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9466.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我想 勞動團體這樣呼籲 我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能 我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對 我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9467.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9483.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9484.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9511.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標 他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9512.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9535.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9536.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9555.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來的這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9557.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9577.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是 他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者 社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9578.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9601.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
跟委員說明 確實在美國他在做強迫攔戶戰扣令的角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對 我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在9月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9603.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9621.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查是那我們其實也還有在請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個所以到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9621.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9645.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我想他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9646.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9674.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接管的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說 譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9676.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9703.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外訴使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK 那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9704.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9726.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以這個是一個自由的調查我們並不是用一個調查的角度我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9727.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9748.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9749.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9768.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9769.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9793.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9795.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9817.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9818.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9830.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那我也沒有任何所謂的Debt Bondage的問題那我根本沒有Debt Bondage的問題那你美國就說我有Debt Bondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9838.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9851.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有釐清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9852.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9877.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準 各種指引因為Forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引 列什麼標準不管是10項 11項 12項 13項標準那些標準一定會比Forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9878.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9882.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那我們要面對問題具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9883.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9910.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果吉安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9911.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9938.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
仲介 或者是這些相關的資訊其實還待他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9939.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9967.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的紀錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來 你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9969.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9979.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
美方所指控的一托阿姑的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9980.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
9998.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄這中間顯然是有落差這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反 但沒有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
9999.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10009.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去瞭解瞭解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10015.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10028.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦那我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10029.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10056.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
還是必須要來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是 部長不好意思我講得比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10058.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10086.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的紀律所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃偉說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10088.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10116.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用IOO的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10118.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10136.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10138.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10157.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10158.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10182.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起對 但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10185.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10210.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以所以他們去檢查以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個我理解所以大概還要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10212.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10238.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就可能要看一下 我們會盡快吧對啊 所謂盡快是多久 再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的 可以嘛那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易 也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10239.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10259.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
一個月後然後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以好謝謝請勞動部這個一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於這個剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10260.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10276.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
有關於那個你們目前為止的這些相關法規的就是剛剛林淑芬委員要求的也一併提供給本委員會辦公室本委員會的委員們的辦公室謝謝好那我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10293.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10296.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
時間上如果沒有差太多的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10324.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10338.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我還要先去竹海翔那裡我去竹海翔那裡很快然後就馬上再去台中 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10349.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10368.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我沒有標大廈啦我覺得這個還好啦OK 好那委內里姆到時候你趁那邊來跟我講 因為我要請你幫我那個 遷徙派遷 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10372.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10380.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那我做兩點三十六的,好不好?還是你要幫我訂...我現在目前訂兩點三十六,可以幫我看看兩點三十一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10401.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10410.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
等一下幫我請簽那個幫我跟那個白白說請他幫我跟朱凱祥聯絡我這裡結束我可能就直接過去看是不是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10417.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10444.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
今天其實體育都很不錯今天他們也有講到一些我們那天是要跟Robber講所以那天那個朋友來講說他要跟兩名主辦公室的工作就很正常他只有一個很壞的就是他們怕是把電子的問題講下去但是去了解是電子的問題我相信說他們的質詢真的我們要推上我覺得理事會的辦法是很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10446.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10447.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
是真的專業在用心 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10695.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10696.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
來現在繼續開會請陳寅委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10725.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10728.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請勞動部長請勞動部長 洪部長陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10738.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10750.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
部長好這一次對美的關稅談判主要分為兩個部分從貿易額來看分別佔32%的一般傳統產業跟68%的電子相關高科技產業前者是佔定適用20加N衝擊的影響的事業單位和勞工的人數將遠大於後者 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10767.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10794.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
首先就這個勞動就業市場的這個衝擊產業影響最大的大概是由哪些產業現在影響比較大的目前從數據上面看到的包括金屬製品包括機械設備那也包括汽車零組件然後也包括其他的運具裡面當然蠻多是自行車 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10795.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10820.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那在這些產業當中到底有多少勞工那中小企業的占比還有就是說這些數據你們勞動部都有掌握嗎有所以大概多少勞工目前這幾個行業加起來的話應該占的比例蠻大的數據上我們現在設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10822.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10845.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
強化版的公安訂措施開放的九大行業裡面 總體的勞工占所有減班休息的勞工大概是占八成以上占八成所以多少7106占現在是8505那在九大就九大的這強化版公安訂措施行業大概是7000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10847.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10870.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這是你們剛剛後面算的那些嗎就是剛剛就是你剛講是減班休息的好所以減班休息就是你們唯一的這個好沒關係這個後續我會帶到好那所以你們這個中小企業佔的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10871.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10897.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
中小企業佔的比例是比較高的 目前看起來50人以下的加數是35750人 357加 好那勞動部你們所掌握的數據其實外界有提出質疑 認為說是嚴重低估那部長剛剛所說的衝擊的這個勞工人數大概有四萬兩千你們說八千多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10899.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10901.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
減班休息的數字目前是8505但是衝擊的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10909.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10936.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
你們那個減班人數只有衝擊就是只有用減班人數去看而已不是陳委員講的應該是有一次在這個有一個4萬2的這個數字那這4萬2數其實它並不是勞動部估的它其實是應該是行政院當時應該是經濟部的相關的智庫的估計這樣子那行政院把它提供給我們做一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10937.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10958.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
好那是這樣子因為當然也有媒體或者其他人在評估就是說這樣的衝擊其實涵蓋勞工大至少有20萬人那實際上光是製造業的從業人數中因為有包括這個食品及飾品製造業那還有紡織業還有橡膠 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10960.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10984.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
橡膠製品製造業還有塑膠製品製造業大概有大概這個九大製造業大概就涵蓋了一百零五萬人了那所以我想要請教就是說你們勞動部是如何推估這個行政院公佈這個四萬二這個四萬兩千人這個數據他的是怎麼樣的這個確認他的正確性 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10987.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11002.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
跟那個聰遠說明你講的一百零五萬的這個數字是我們當時公佈九個行業適用強化版固定安定措施這九個行業總體的從業人數是一百零五萬可是並不是這一百零五萬都會受到衝擊並不是這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11007.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11030.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
對啊所以你們怎麼去推估後來還有個4萬2的這個4萬2那應該是經濟部跟他經濟部的智庫去推估出來的數字那請問請我們來是經濟部跟他的依據什麼去推估出來他其實應該是用一定一些研究的方法去做做這個數字的方法對他不是去對那個勞保行業別人 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11032.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11055.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以研究他們用什麼樣研究的方法這可能要細看一下他們的那你會後再提供給我們看是怎麼樣因為那個4萬2主要是經濟部跟他的智庫去推估出來的那但是這個數字後來是行政院也給我們作為參考用這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11056.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11077.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好那根據勞動部10月1號公佈最新一期的減班休息那你們的這個總人總人數和這個家數分別剛剛有提到就是8505人那有398家其中呢有310家的廠商表達是因為受到這個關稅的影響所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11080.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11104.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這個部分總人數大概有達到7755人所以大概就是佔全部通報員工人數的九成那勞動部也有表示就是說本期增加了1171人那相較於上一期增加的2471人那這個成長的幅度就比較趨於平緩那 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11106.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11127.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我想要請教就是說難道減班休息的人數是勞動部的這個唯一作為衡量關稅衝擊的指標嗎也不是還有沒有其他那你們其他是因為可能包括包括之前包括之前那也包括大解大量解雇 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11129.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11155.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
大姐 OK包括大姐 包括之前幾個東西我們都說但是的確在其他的數據比方說之前的通報裡面並沒有像減班休息的數字的成長的幅度這樣好 那有一種狀況就是假如是產業外移或者他官場歇業了我想這些失業的勞工他就不會出現在這個減班休息的統計上對 所以他就會變成是之前或大姐 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11156.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11177.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那因為這個就是說後來這些人大概連班都沒有機會剪了啦那所以你們的失業統計就是他這個母數可能又要建立在這個千萬勞工的這個大母數的基礎上那即使就是說20萬人失業了那顯示數據喔的這個百分比也不會很高所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11178.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11201.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我想就是說勞動部對於這個就業市場有一個你們有沒有這個即時正確的這個監視指標 有嗎跟文說明 其實因為之前的通報或者是大姐其實她不會出於母數所以其實還是會直接看到她的個數就是直接人數上面的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11203.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11218.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以我想是這樣本席要在這裡建議勞動部就是說你們可以看一下目前受到衝擊的傳統產業就是說這個行業別勞保投保人數有沒有減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11218.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11247.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那這個是每個月都會更新變化的數字所以每個月5號呢是雇主申報的這個期限那至少6號在部長的桌上就可以有這幾個行業別投保人數增減的數字所以我不曉得部長覺得說這樣的數據是不是重要是我再跟委員補充其實我們大家都會看幾個因為減慢休息然後解聘的數字還有包括失業給付的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11249.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11266.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
因為這幾個數字大概是比較比較敏感的去了解現在就業市場的狀況因為解聘解聘未必等於這個產業外移所以這個部分我覺得還是有一些落差因為解聘就會後面就是失業 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11269.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11295.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我講的是產業外移未必完全就是說解聘未必完全就等於產業外移這樣子的一個因素那再來就是說這個月的2號你們發布了這個因應關稅的這個支持方案跟四大措施包含了鬆綁適用對象還有擴增服務內涵以及這個跨部會資源整合以提高效益等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11295.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11305.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那第一個措施主動訪視衝擊我想要請教部長就是說直到現在你們去訪談工會跟事業單位有得到什麼樣的結論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11309.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11330.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這分成兩個部分因為我們去訪韓工會的確會有一些受衝擊的影響的產業他並沒有工會所以我們是請我們的五分署其實五個分署其實幾乎在這從四月到現在半年左右的時間他們幾乎這個訪視就是聯繫跟訪視加起來差不多兩萬多個加次 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11334.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11344.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
包括在尤其現在大家看起來比較嚴重的地方會是在中部那剛才講的幾個產業包括機械業包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11347.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11373.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
可能水五金機械業水五金幾個金屬製品跟其他運輸都是在中部其實是比較多的因為是這樣子就是說經營的風險是雇主那他不是勞工那但是我想你們做這些訪視是不是在你們的這個訪談記錄這些雇主的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11374.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11398.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我們能不能會後給我們辦公室做參考可以好謝謝那再來第二個措施就是強化雇用安定還有補貼勞工被減薪或降低工時那你們可以補助這個減少的薪資是從五成提高到七成我想要請教就是說你們如何可以周知這些事業單位或者僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11400.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11417.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
因為他們如果通報的話都會有聯繫的方式所以在聯繫方式上我們都會主動跟這些僱主來聯繫說其實你可以來申請包括幫勞工來申請這個強化版的管理措施那有些勞工其實他有留下聯絡方式我們也會主動跟他聯絡其實你可以申請這個薪資差額補貼我們都會主動聯絡再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11422.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11442.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
受到衝擊在就業的部分你們要對接失業勞工跟缺工的事業單位那也要給他們提供客製化的就業媒合服務我想這個部分我們是給予很高的肯定但是請問你們要如何具體的執行然後預估的這個KPI是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11444.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11471.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為這個跟文說明因為你剛才講的這個是我們在勞工就業通的計畫那勞工就業通的計畫它主要是設計給因為關稅等等國際情勢的因素而比方說被解雇而失業的勞工那所以整體的KPI並不是我們自己定因為我也不希望這個數字定很高因為如果定很高代表我們失業的人很多但所以如果你們的具體執行會 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11473.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11502.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我想我們會 我自己覺得我們會希望盡量就是我們遇到是因為關稅的因素被解雇然後產生失業狀況我們會盡量的提高對他們的這個轉職的服務所以在這個轉職服務裡面我們也看到的確蠻多他傳統產業其實中高齡的勞工比較多所以因為中高齡的勞工多所以他的職務在設計或者是其實我們有一些相關的訓練我們從這部分為中高齡的勞工多做設計我們其實從這個角度來去協助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11502.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11515.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
因為今天這樣回答也是很抽象因為我不知道你們要設計什麼我剛才說包括我們把這個服務從植物在設計其實也從它原本是其他的計畫我們把它給整合進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11517.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11536.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好 沒關係因為今天時間也差不多了我想這個會後也都希望你們可以做比較詳細的補充那最後一個就是說最後一個措施是這個青年接軌職場然後初次尋找青年然後依規定報名參加計畫完成各項求職準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11538.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11552.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
然後沒有未能找到工作者就發給尋職津貼這個部分聽起來好像是一個已經是既有的計劃那而且再來就是說參加計劃期間找到工作且穩定就業者就發給就業獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11553.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11573.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
最高合計發給發到4.8萬元這是一個既有的計畫他不是既有計畫但過去其實有真的今年尋職的部分但因為這次關稅因為我們考量到其實會有一些企業他當他遇到關稅衝擊的時候他可能會縮減給年輕人一開始的這個就業的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11575.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11601.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
所以當時我們經過一些學者的討論認為我們其實應該要對於年輕人的尋子有個強化版的做法所以剛剛因為這個我是看不出來有什麼差別第一個我們提高我們提高提高了這個津貼的津貼的額度就是3萬多到4萬多對然後我們也把適用的範圍放寬然後也包括過去其實是要尋子90天那我們現在把它縮減到60天就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11602.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11627.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
就是說60天的計劃 縮到60天60天沒有工作沒有工作原本是要90天那我們現在把它縮短到60天就可以那但是縮短60天符合那這樣子的就是說期間大概總共要多久計劃是三個月就是他求職找到是三個月我們會給他相關的津貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11628.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11643.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好那你們怎麼樣去定義說出自尋職這個定義他就是第一次找工作的狀況我們在我們的記錄上面是看得到你們記錄上在投保記錄上面是看得到的好那我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11647.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11665.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這個部分我們希望就是說可以有一些更令人有感的一些措施在這邊我想今天提醒了提醒了很多點那因為畢竟說我們關稅現在還在談有些衝擊浪潮要過一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11666.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11684.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
才會慢慢的湧現所以在這裡要特別提醒你們就是說要麻煩你們要隨時注意這個現有的這個方案措施的成效那特別是很多他都是有時效性的那如果整個行政作業太慢的話有再多的美意到最後也都會變質 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11687.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11702.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
所以在這邊因為下個月部長你任期就滿一年了那我們很期待說這個一年過去了部長可以有很好的成績單交出來這樣子謝謝謝謝陳瑩委員發言接下來請葉元梓委員發言請勞動部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11715.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11716.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11721.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11749.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
業務員好部長好先問一下無薪假的問題因為8月又攀升到8500人比7月又多1000多人最近是抖升應該是10月1號的公佈10月1號我想請教一下因為我看到你有提到你是最近一直在仿視產業那你都仿視什麼產業其實傳統產業比較多傳統產業那現在你預估11月的無薪假人數會一直繼續往上衝嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11751.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11764.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
應該不是預估啦因為你有訪視嘛所以有了解嘛我們會要我覺得要為人數還增加當然要為人數增加做準備大概你覺得你預估大概多少不是估一個就狀況是會更嚴峻還是會趨緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11766.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11782.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們就是要我認為我們要對於人數還會再增加去做相關的政策上面因為這個東西跟你邊預算或政府的因應作為都有關所以回答也不能那麼的抽象我相信你應該要給一個具體的答案你覺得會比較嚴峻還是會趨緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11784.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11797.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我們現在看到的數據因為9月16號的時候那一次公佈增加是240010月1號的時候公佈是增加1100就增加的幅度來說是有降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11798.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11816.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
對 我現在問未來啦因為你有房市嘛如果你都丟的不管我不會問你嘛你有房市有些企業跟你回應說我們現在可能這個月還可以撐下個月撐不住或如何如何你會有一個判斷嘛這就是你房市的目的嘛我們認為要就是是有可能會再增加的就是會更嚴峻啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11817.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11841.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那當然你昨天我們也在審你們的像今天在審你們所提出來的預算就是有因應國際局勢的韌性你們這邊是編的250億其中有100億是給勞保啦另外150億是辦理勞工的安定就業各項措施然後我看你的計畫裡面提的10項那其中有一項是辦理青年就業計畫那這個部分預計投入多少錢詳細的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11846.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11866.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
一直投多少錢總共15億15億那其實你這個資源青年計劃我之前就有看過了在你提這個計劃預算之前就有看過那時候左下角是講說本項措施符合就業安定基金促進國民就業用途看起來這個錢原本是要用救安基金去付 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11868.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11894.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
同樣一個計畫忽然間又送特別預算過來特別預算一般是說要因應緊急狀況沒有錢的時候送已經確定要用救安基金來付為什麼又送特別預算過來目的是什麼跟文說明其實我們在關稅的期間其實是有把包括適用對象包括補貼的金額其實都有在拉高但是因為你這個原本的資源青年就業計畫你是有名額限制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11895.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11913.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
你是符合條件就可以啊對啊 那既然是符合條件就可以那就沒有金額的問題啊那為什麼要另外再編特別預算來我說補貼的金額我們把它拉高本來金額你這邊救援基金就是四萬八你現在特別預算也是四萬八金額一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11915.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11940.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
跟文說因為還是說你現在要用特別預算來取代救安基金不是不是不是我們原定這部分就是要用特別預算來支用可是因為自己看救安基金不是不是因為特別預算還沒過還沒過所以現在就是先移緩季節因為現在就我了解所以你的意思是說在沒有這沒有特別預算的話呢你用救安基金來支付那現在有特別預算救安基金就不用付了嘛對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11940.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11956.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
意思是這樣嗎應該是說其實因為這是因為特別預算現在還在審查可是現在已經會有青年對於這個計畫對於資源有需求所以就是說所以我們先用這個先用基金對 那之後一環基金然後之後就用特別預算對 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11958.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11974.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
接下來我就要想要順便問一下因為你這個計畫我看到他是用15到29歲未就業都可以15歲到18歲理論上他應該在讀書但是可能有一些未就業所以施用這個計畫請問一下大概15到18歲未就業有請領這個計畫的現在是多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11980.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11997.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
15到18你特別問15到你去統計一下好不好如果15我特別問15段我可能要算一下你統計一下好不好因為我們我覺得你們統計完之後應該要跟教育部來討論一下就是說為什麼有這些學生他是沒有去讀書然後是去就業的有什麼狀況可能要跟社政機關一起來研究一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11998.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12026.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
因為理論上我們應該還是鼓勵這個年齡的學生去讀書啦當然對所以這個不是說你就給他錢就不管他當然照顧他我覺得政府也應該做但是也應該要了解正常來說應該讀書為什麼你會來就業這個部分這其實在我們其實相關的統計就是有他就是為就學為就業的一般我們簡稱為為的青年所以還是會有一些他在這個階段他沒有覺得我覺得還是要跟教育部跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12027.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12051.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
跟那個衛福部大家去討論一下好 再來我就因為講到救安基金看起來救安基金就是你的小金庫啦就是沒錢的時候拿出來用一下有錢就可以收回來然後之前大家對於救安基金有很多批評因為被拿去開演唱會啊拿去裝潢啊拿去拍影片啊然後這一些的那既然這個救安基金現在已經收這麼多多到感覺變成可以這樣子用 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12052.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12079.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那我覺得你何不就是在繳交的部分我覺得你可以放寬一點讓有一些其實有困難的人可以不用繳交那目前就業安定費是根據就業服務法第55條有三個狀況是可以免繳一個譬如說他是中低收入戶或者是他是身心障礙者但是他有領取生活補助或者是醫療人福利法領取中低收入生活津貼這三種人他是不用繳交就業安定費 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12080.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12101.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
可是其實他都有一個財務的限制就他必須要符合可能收入比較低這一塊但是我們都知道像我們在地方也很多人跟我們反映他其實生活也不見得很好但是他就是沒有達到中低收入戶的標準那這些人假設他們家裡面有中高中重度的失能者要照顧的話他請一個外籍看護要不要繳救援安定費 要 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12103.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12130.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
其實我覺得對他來說是蠻大的一筆負擔那如果救安基金都已經這麼多了政府都可以拿去開演唱會了都可以拿去拍影片了那為什麼不能讓這一些真的家裡面比較有困難的讓他勉強的我覺得部長您研究一下好不好跟我說明第一個我們在今年1月的時候其實我們就已經提出強化管理救安基金的方案所以不會再有剛之前看到的這些有爭議的使用狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12132.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12158.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那是代表说之前就是钱太多才会这样嘛那你现在的钱还是一样多啊更何况刚刚也讲了嘛你用特别预算也来补了救安基金本来要支出的部分嘛所以救安基金的钱是错错有余我们现在是用救安基金去补其实应该特别要用规划用特别预算的部分钱就是有空出来本来要拿去付这个初次循职津贴但现在有特别预算了所以我觉得你 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12159.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12187.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
部長你去研究一下啦就是說救安基金你那麼多非必要的支出你都在花了過去是這樣今年錢一樣多未來這些支出我們都會我們就做出救安基金的改革所以沒有 你改革但是未來會這樣過去會這樣代表說沒有那麼多的需求嘛他才會把這些錢拿來這樣用嘛那為什麼忽然間需求會增加是我們勞工條件越來越差嗎還是你看壞我們經濟否則你為什麼會認為說未來救安基金的需求會越來越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12189.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12213.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
如果你經濟穩定的話政府就是告訴我們經濟穩定啊理論上來講救安基金是安定就業那他基本上他最起碼維持跟過去一樣的水平啊為什麼你會認為說救安基金未來的支出會越來越多你如果把那些開演唱會啊拍影片這些錢把它去掉之後支付的還會更多我相信那你很看壞我們的經濟耶所以我現在沒有叫你立刻給答案但我覺得研議一下因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12213.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12232.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
如果說救安基金的錢確實水位很高然後可以做像過去可以用那些用途的話為什麼針對這一些比較有困難的家庭他不符合免繳的用途我們不能夠放寬呢我相信這個錢也沒有很多所以我希望說不然你去試算一下你去試算一下如果說假設假設我講完假設 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12235.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12258.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
針對就是他不符合中低收入戶但是家裡有重度失能以上的這些家庭他也許有困難讓他勉強一個月兩千塊的就業安定費到底對於救安基金的影響有多大我覺得至少給一個評估出來嘛給評估然後再去看說欸救安基金這個如果扣掉一些非必要支出欸可以可以這個過去那我覺得大家可以往這個方向去做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12259.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12278.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
跟委員報告 第一個因為過去的確我們在免繳救安基金部分比較是針對收入以收入作為篩選條件那我們有看到一些委員其實對於這個救安基金免繳或少繳其實有提出希望做更多其他類型的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12279.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12308.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那我想我們可以來做一些評估你做一個研討我們也可以來做一些評估就是你把那個金額算出來然後當面我們會來整體估計一下包括救援基金的財務狀況這樣子那大概什麼時候會有這個研究出來我想我們可能一個月好不好給我們兩個月好不好部長你這麼勇於認識的人我們認識這麼久了對不對 一個月我兩個月了你看你這樣子就訓掉了一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12310.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12331.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我們盡快好不好對那最慢兩個月好謝謝好謝謝葉元智委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長有請洪森漢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12339.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12357.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
今天大家關心就是因應關稅的這個議題那造成這個這幾個月減班休息的人數一直在增加那我想請教就是說部長你應該也有到地方去訪視或者是去參訪那也看到現在很多傳產業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12359.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12378.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
確實在這幾個月遇到了一些困難那尤其是台中彰化南投這部分在這個九月份的時候這是看一個統計啦就是說在九月份台中彰化南投這個超過4000名的勞工被迫放無薪假 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12379.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12394.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我們也看到就是說你們在勞動部的統計就是9月份減班休息的人數從原本的7300多一直到10月份是已經突破到8500 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12396.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12417.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那中張頭的這個部分就已經超過4000人那因為中張頭這個產業會比較特殊有的是工具機有的是金屬製造業腳踏車零件或水五金這個真的算是傳產非常多的一個地方那確實有碰到這樣的一個特殊的地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12419.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12433.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這個特定的地區然後有這樣子特別嚴重的一個狀況那我不知道說勞動部針對這個特定的地區有比較嚴重的這個狀況是不是有不一樣的一個做法或者是全國是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12436.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12452.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
確實現在因為中央這邊我們是訂定一個全國性的政策但是我們的確有看到的確中部目前假班休息的數字是比較多的所以這也是為什麼其實上週那我自己也親自到 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12453.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12471.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
中部來跟我們很多的傳產的業者包括這些工協會一起來座談我們也是希望對於尤其是中部的這些業者他們遇到的問題在我們所能夠執掌的跟勞工相關的部分來多給一些協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12472.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12493.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那我們希望就是說針對中部地區比較嚴重的這個狀況我覺得也許你們的這個力道應該可以再加強一點因為就是一個變成一個聚落的特殊的這樣一個狀況因為我在這幾天也碰到就是因為減班休息那這個中高齡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12494.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12512.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
女性这个是我碰到连续碰到两位就刚好那一天早上连续碰到两位都差不多60出差不多60几岁的妈妈那她会说他们公司就因为这个关税的问题所以他们目前是在放无薪假 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12513.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12539.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那像這樣子的話當然就是說勞動部針對這個減班休息的這些勞工有一些因應的措施或者是這個訓練或者參加訓練可能有一些這個補助那針對這個中高齡的部分其實他們覺得說勞動部這樣的一個政策對他們來講沒有很大的幫助因為他們急需要的可能就是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12541.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12557.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
這個收入所以他們從原本的這個工廠那因為減班休息那後來他們又去找了可能就是這個臨時工可能就找了臨時的這樣的一個工作所以我也希望就是說針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12558.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12575.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
不一定就是說你們現在提出來的政策當然是很好就是說薪資差額的補貼或者是再充電的這個計畫我覺得這個是很好可是可能針對中高齡的這個部分也許他覺得說這個對他來講沒有多大的一個幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12576.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12591.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
所以針對中高齡的這樣的一個這個失業的勞工因為減班休息失業的勞工後面他可能還需要再找一些比較臨時的一個工作那針對這部分有沒有比較及時的一個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12591.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12619.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
跟花園說明第一個如果是老公他如果其實在減班休息時間他其實假設他是出現薪資上的落差因為減班嘛薪資落差的話那這部分其實他不一定要參訓參加訓練那他是可以直接用強化版的安定措施那我們來補他這個差額的七成那這個是誰要申請是企業要幫他申請或他自己他自己也可以申請他自己申請就可以對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12620.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12636.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
他自己又可以申請 企業幫他申請也很好也可以 那勞工也可以自己申請那我覺得像這個的話你們可能他如果今天是可能找了一個是一個臨時的一個工作找一個是臨時的工作那這個他也可以自己申請嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12638.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12652.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我們其實是針對他原本的工業原本比方說他如果薪水42,000現在因為減班假設是3萬 假設3萬但是因為減班休息還是要有最基本的最低工資所以比方說42,000到 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12654.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12670.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
3萬那這1萬2的差額我們會補貼7成1萬2的7成所以他只要來申請我們就會核給他我們就會他自己只要上網申請或者是直接到你們的這個分數就業中心或分數來申請就業中心都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12671.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12692.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
到分署去申請也都可以對沒錯那我希望就是說把這個訊息應該也要把它讓更多的勞工知道因為他們有的人會覺得說那我是不是要透過企業幫他申請那有的企業他不一定要聘這樣的一個勞工是所以現在我們是直接是勞工可以申請所以這也是為什麼我們確實在幾個工會的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12694.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12720.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
都跟我們強調希望我們擴大宣傳因為像剛剛講我們其實已經把申請的程序弄到最簡便那可是的確還是有一些勞工朋友不一定都知道那這個在宣傳上面我們會再更努力是好那其實我剛剛講的這個中部地區可能算是一個重災區那另外除了就是說因為關稅的問題其實國際的情勢也會影響到這些這個傳產 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12723.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12740.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這些公司因為我就碰到一位企業他們原本是做工具機的因為整個關稅的議題他原本可能就賣到香港賣到新加坡這個工具機又被轉賣到伊朗 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12742.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12755.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那就被美國這邊制裁因為列入黑名單那整個公司所有的帳戶全部被凍結那造成說他的勞工也因為這樣子因為公司被凍結所有的帳戶被凍結之後也沒辦法接單 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12760.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12783.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那造成說這些勞工就因為這樣子也失業所以類似這樣的一個狀況不論是因為關稅的問題或者是因為國際情勢造成的勞工的失業我覺得說這個可能也是我們勞動部需要去關心的部分因為不只是因為關稅的問題國際情勢也會影響到我們這些企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12787.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12804.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
所以我在這邊也要再提醒就是說勞動部針對這部分一方面我們要去做宣傳讓更多的勞工知道要不然他會覺得這個公司因為這個接不到單尤其是原本他們4月份因為關稅的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12806.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12831.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那可能在期待可能第三季或第四季是不是可以接單可不可以接到這個國外的訂單可是我們第三季現在第三季整個財報出來之後發現可能訂單也沒有想像中的多或者是也沒有訂單的這樣的一個狀況那就像剛剛部長講的也許在你們在下個月又在統計的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12832.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12853.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
減班休息的這個受到影響這些勞工的數字也許會比現在8500名還要再多人那所以我希望就是說勞動部針對這一部分不論是因為關稅的議題或者是因為受到國際情勢的這個影響我覺得應該也要還要再有一個比較更積極的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12854.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12873.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
跟委員說明其實我們現在比方說剛剛講的薪資差補貼我們並沒有限制他只受到關稅影響其實我們把範圍甚至拉到現在有很多廠商遇到匯率的問題或者是所以我們整體是把它包在一個因應國際情勢的不確定性所造成的影響我們都會把它放到現在在我們那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12875.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12891.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
這個薪資差額補貼的部分所以並不是只去只鎖定或者是只限只有因為關稅的影響所以你原本說擴大到九大製造業那現在譬如說九大製造業以外的這些勞工如果受到影響的話也是可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12893.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12910.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
目前我們其實薪資差的補貼是目前公告是九大行業那現在都是製造業那但是行業別要不要更多的放寬我們其實也可以滾動的來檢討可是的確現在因為這個裡面我們會因為是用特別預算那也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12912.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
12928.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個強化版的部分我們是特別針對這個國際的情勢所以如果有一些比方說有些行業他其實跟關稅的影響沒有那麼沒有大的相關他可能他只是自己內部經營的問題那這就不在我們薪資差補貼的範圍裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
12930.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
12948.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那我希望就是說因為確實現在第三劑第四劑也許會更嚴重就是說減半休息的這部分也許會更嚴重那仲裁區的話就是中部地區傳產的這些區域可能會比較嚴重那我也希望就是說部長既然你都有下鄉區 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
12949.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
12962.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
去了解的話也許就是說滾動式的檢討可以讓更多的勞工能夠受益這個應該也是我們勞動部最原本的一個美意是 當然 好 謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
12979.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
12980.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
謝謝主席 那我想請洪部長 謝謝 請洪聖漢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
12989.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13004.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
部長我先用講的就好但您一定很熟悉因為我們勞動力發展署的訓練發展組他有統計發現呢您做的這個充電再出發計畫只有86家企業515人僅佔受影響人數的6.05% |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13010.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13037.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
企業辦訓更是僅有三家其實這個成效是不好的那因為成效不佳其實你是有放寬規定比如說不用限制最低的開班人數啊你回溯到8月1號還有上課時間也比較有彈性人數放寬但是合撥的金額如果是從7月開始申請應該還沒有執行數我們還看不到你放寬之後的執行數不知道你這邊有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13038.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13059.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
已經有的相關數據可以提供還是你要在一個月後才可以提供現在還沒有數據還沒出來所以你們檢討了過去成效不上的原因大概是哪幾個面向跟穩說明其實過去在減班休息的狀況其實主要在致應的就是我們這個充電債出發的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13061.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13082.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
但是因為這確實他會需要企業來辦訓那很多企業會說他其實現在是他很辛苦的時間那他還要特別來辦訓他可能不一定有能力或他不一定有這個意願來辦訓所以就會讓這個成效受影響這也是為什麼我們其實現在把對於減班休息勞工的經濟支持我們認為更應該更著重在 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13083.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13098.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
另外一個強化版的規模安定措施上面那個是直接的可以給予薪資的差額補貼就是對於勞工的經濟支持我們是更大程度的是放在直接的薪資差額補貼所以你的意思是說這個也許你會考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13100.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13123.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
放寬以後加持還是不好你就是移轉這可能不能移轉不是移轉但是你們會加強另外的直接補貼啦我們其實是直接的擦補貼所以我們從五成拉到七成行業別也放寬其實我們現在是就是說我如果更直接講就是以強化版公安訂措施為主那這個充電站出發對於經濟支持的效果為輔 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13125.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13139.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
好那下一個我想問這個減班休息就勢必要調整投保的薪資所以投保薪資一定會有所調降這是非常多這個人士就做HR的人他們反映的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13140.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13163.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
其中包括申請勞保生育 老年給付 商帳給付等等都是去根據你領錢數個月的平均投保薪資來看但是減班休息是變相的影響到勞工的權益這個不在話下可是投保的薪資變相也懲罰到他們應有的這些給付的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13164.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13186.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那你有沒有辦法用最快的速度來試算因為現在剛很多委員都問了嘛大概是8500人目前是8500人所以這個試算起來應該不會很困難但對他們而言這些生育啊傷臟啊老年的給付也是很重要是不是也應該用特別預算來補足這部分金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13188.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13203 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
跟委員報告就是勞保的投保薪資他的內涵是勞基法的工資所以依照規定當然雇主要何時申報但是對於考量這一段期間的特殊的一個狀況勞資送讓他可以預訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13204.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13233.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
就是原来的投保薪资申报不要调整老保局不会去处罚他但是你有去统计吗你有去统计有多少人他的薪资投保薪资可能会跳降了受影响了因为这个必须你刚刚讲得很清楚啊必须双方是讲好的是是是牢固双方议定对啊红部长刚也说了老板这边资方这边也是觉得辛苦嘛所以他不一定会两边都讲好按照原本的投保薪资啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13234.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13263.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
其實就我們目前看到其實蠻多其實他基本上並沒有調降投保薪資因為這是一個比較短期的狀況那投保薪資大概是三個月其實做一次更新那所以其實目前看到是他其實並沒有很多要去反而在這段時間裡面去調降那之後你會去追嗎我們不會去我們不會特別去追這件事情然後但是我們基本上我會希望就是雙方其實就議定不調降投保薪資就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13264.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13290.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那你們應該會去統計一下比例吧我們可以統計一下比例但是我說在做法上在做法上面其實就是雙方一定那我們不會特別要去在這個特別的時間還去做查然後說我們其實不會但你之後會不會有一個數據可以給我們有哪些人有受到影響我們可以去就是去比對那個減班休息的人數看看能不能比對的出來不然勞保局在 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13291.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13305.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
薪資調整這部分其實他是沒有原因的他沒有寫說他是因為減班休息或者是因為沒有加班等等的因素我知道你很難把它比對他下降的原因是不是因為減班休息這個我之後會再發文詢問你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13307.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13329.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
是 再跟委員報告我們脫髮新社調降或者是調整其實一年兩次就是2月跟8月我們不是每個月都讓雇主來調整好 但剛剛有很多委員也是擔心這個會延長到很久嗎可能到第三季第四季甚至明年所以你本來就要有這個心理準備會遇到這件事情好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13331.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13355.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
再來就是洪部長也非常關心的彈性育嬰留庭照顧方案這個我跟你都是很贊同的啦可是呢現在因為勞健保的問題你必須要停保你必須要加保反反覆覆所以企業的人事行政申請或是公務員這都是一個挑戰那我知道你會出懶人包請問你這個懶人包的進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13356.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13375.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我跟陳委員說明其實這個方案我們在9月提出其實這一段時間我們一直在跟包括我們的勞保局跟調評師包括保險司我們在盡力的把所有申請的程序給簡化甚至有些部分我們可以用自動的方式來處理那相關的書表能夠盡量簡化到最簡就最簡 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13376.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13405.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
那就是希望让比方说企业的HR他如果要来申请的时候其实可以在最简单的方式里面甚至我们会用可以手机线上就能够申请但是你的意思是说如果他请一天就是还是要一次吗我们可以让他累也就是你不用每一天就要来申请一次你甚至可以累计假设比方说因为我们现在是开放30天让大家一日来请我们其实是可以让大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13407.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13426.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
30天你請完30天再來跟我們申請一次都可以你不用每一次就要來就不用重複一樣的動作但現在有個比較特別的行業是女醫師跟我申請的女醫師這個您知道嗎因為對於女醫師來說她留庭就必須要辦理庭業的登記然後再去復職 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13427.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13443.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
因為他是特殊的有醫師執照的所以他在辦理流停的時候還要再跑醫師公會還要再跑地方衛生局那他如果做這種彈性孕育流停的話他必須比一般的勞工還要再多跑兩個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13445.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13469.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
因為職業登記應該是在衛福部嘛那我們來跟衛福部討論一下可是可是基本上我們會在我們目前可以就是我們勞動部全責的範圍內盡量把所有流程都最簡單我們最近也在跟人資在做相關的討論就是讓因為讓人資能夠用的盡量上手我覺得是我們在操作面上面我們讓大家用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13469.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13497.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
最簡單的方式那針對這個比較高規管的行業請問你們可以跟衛福部討論嗎我們可以來跟衛福部討論但是就看有沒有哪些部分可以再互相協調一下那就會後會再詢問您那關於這個這是很多很多網友他們的心得如果說你們同仁有空的話也可以到這些群組或者是社團去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13498.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13515.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
大家其實對於您的這個育嬰留職停薪然後在規範子女三年前的請然後六個月可以領八成薪金不會都是正面看待非常正面看待可是你看一下所有實際上大家遇到問題是什麼遇到問題是三歲以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13516.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13540.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
大部分的人可能是在比較封閉或是在家或者是長輩照顧等等的他沒有那麼容易生病但是3歲反而是3歲到小學之間他只要班上有人腸病毒等等就一次會停課到5天反而大家會覺得這個利益非常的良好但如果你可以把這個歲數稍微往長一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13541.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13553.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
應用起來會更好那我也想問勞動部有沒有去調查生育後的雙親尤其是女性有多少比例是申請完育嬰留職停薪比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13554.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13576.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
我們應該是有數據但是現在可能數據沒有在手邊但是數據是不是你覺得不夠好所以你才會想要做彈性或者是說其實我們看到的情況是的確不一定很多的女性的勞動其實暈流田不是只有女性可以申請男性也可以申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13577.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13599.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那其實蠻多都跟我們反映希望能夠更彈性他不一定一定要請這麼長那剛剛委員其實提到這個三歲以上的部分因為我們其實在這一次的計劃的推出其實是在目前是因為是不用修法不用修法是三歲以下因為育嬰留庭基本上是在三歲以下才可以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13600.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13622.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
那我們是認為先讓我們先三歲以下先往前走那我覺得是狀況也包括很多的企業因為台灣中好企業真的蠻多的那調適到一個程度我們也不是不能考慮是不是要透過修法的方式那再把稅數再提高這個部分我們也持開放的態度因為我們是希望三歲以下能夠先行這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13623.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13650.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
因為我自己有提出我自己的版本我是希望這個可以拉到8歲但假使您願意的話當然只要是往後拉所有的家長都是正面的絕對大家是一定會全力支持您其實在現在因為真的因為台灣正好小微企業比較多所以我們現在也在規劃一些讓企業可以協助他調適的做法因為他的確需要調適尤其是一些排班性的企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13650.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13679.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那这是为什么我们要尽量简化他们的程序也包括他可能会在排班上可能他也需要一些新的排班的人资的制度来去做相关的因应可是有的时候社会企业他不一定都有很完整的HR的制度所以其实对于这些企业我们要给他协助是真的后面还有很多的工作要放在这个地方那我们觉得说如果其实企业调试到一个程度后面假如要用修法的方式把税数给拉高当然我们觉得这部分是可以讨论的 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13680.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13706.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
其實對企業而言他反而不會這麼短在這麼密集的時間接到同就是一樣有生育的這個族群可能密集的請假你把他拉長反而大家會比較分散一點點也有這樣子的看法好這邊大家不分朝野對於沒宣費現在是蠻敏感的所以這個昨天在九樓是非常多委員質詢那我先跟部長報告2023年普發現金6000元這個東西你也有參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13710.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
13727.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
政府是編列了1150的預算沒宣費最後只用了819但是達到了非常好的成效不管是偏鄉的啊境外返國的同胞啊各個族群都在多元的領取管道中有序的完成領取 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
13728.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
13757.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那这次普发现金一万这个特别预算没宣费是高达1350元大家已经觉得很离谱了但是我们来跟你刚你有讲到这九大行业受冲击的老公跟你比一下普发现金要执行的经费规模是你的337倍之多结果你的没宣费是普发现金的1.4倍请问你这个是贵在什么道理你可以跟我们讲一下吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
13757.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
13772.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
跟陳委員報告其實我們在下鄉包括跟很多勞工跟工會在座談的時候勞工工會都請我們一定要加強宣傳而且需要我們用更希望用更多資源包括今天我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
13773.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
13793.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
这个寻答朝野委员也都跟我们说很多劳工还不知道一定要加强而且希望要不同方式来宣传因为很多劳工不一定他都会看新闻就是新闻上不一定都能够透过新闻上来得到这些讯息他们都跟我说希望我们宣传的方法要更多元因为劳工可能更多元不一定要更贵啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
13795.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
13823.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
是吧所以我們基本上我們是在希望說讓我們這個政策的成效因為就像剛剛前面幾位委員不管是執行黨的委員或在黨委員都希望我們加強宣傳加強宣傳不代表需要1900萬我不知道我方不方便跟你要你這1900萬的項目跟他的量可以 我們想要看你的項目跟量還有你最後執行率可以 當然你也不一定會把它花完對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
13824.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
13853.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我們不是說一定要把它花完但是我們希望說這個宣傳的效果能夠更到位讓更多勞工知道他們可以來申請相關津貼也好補貼也好的權利我覺得這是最重要的目的那你大概多久可以給我們這個報告現在其實還在招標中但是你應該會有初步的項目跟費用啊會吧我們招標文件是公開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
13854.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
13873.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
其實招標文件是公開的 項目跟費用 對招標文件應該是公開的 最後一個問題我們可以再整理給委員的 對好 啟動了天災臨時工的措施 我要問一下因為我們可以提高當地的經濟還有就業率 讓當地失業啟動了天災臨時工的措施 這個非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
13874.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
13893.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個是你9月25號開始啟動的當然就是災區花蓮自從0403地震很多這個天然的景觀啊太魯閣等等都還沒有修復所以觀光客當然到現在都還沒有復甦好現在又遇到了洪災所以他這個修復之路是慢慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
13895.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
13908.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
就是非常非常的久啦我們也不知道他們到什麼時候才可以重新恢復他的經濟那9月25號事辦到現在我想知道你們這個臨時工的媒合的計畫到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
13909.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
13938.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
有多少人來申請了因為上次0403當時你也是委員許明春是部長大概才過了五天他就告訴我說有15個人來申請可是這次呢我發文給你們你們是回應我說試射資料都不可以說要跑完公文才可以我就覺得很奇怪為什麼許明春部長很快就在這樣子的場合回答我然後你們一定要跑完公文才可以告訴我你們的這個臨時公計畫到底有多少人申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
13939.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
13958.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我跟委員說其實我昨天有說其實這一次的這個華家莎颱風目前應該是50人那已經上工是40幾人那其實這個數字我認為是比較少的不滿意吧當然是少的那我們其實有我們是主動的跟包括地方政府包括鄉鎮公所主動跟他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
13959.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
13987.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
你可以來申請那只要你提出甚至我幫你寫你的提案計劃我都幫你寫我幫你服務到底那可是因為這一波確實現在比較多他們都還是比較多是因為有大量的志工所以對於這些需要勞動力來協助清理的他們目前其實比較多還是請志工在協助但是我們認為到接下面一個階段比方說開始重建的階段如果志工的數字在災區可能會下降的狀況下面可能會有更多虛工的單位他們會來跟我們申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
13988.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14011.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那這是針對華家莎那其實前一波包括在七月的時候台南的風災風災申請的不錯這個我知道大概是兩千多就五十這麼簡單的數字五十你沒有辦法回覆我你還要等公文跑我昨天其實就有說五十了那沒有告訴我們辦公室我們辦公室已經詢問了很久我昨天其實我們在詢答的時候就有說是五十 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14012.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14034.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
好那你有沒有考慮比如說再放寬他的身份我知道你現在已經把程序的繁瑣度降到最低了那你有沒有考慮再把基本工資稍微往上提然後或者是身份的限制他可能有一些雖然戶籍不是在災區但是他的工作是跟災區的上下有產業鏈有相關的他也受到了波及 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14034.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14052.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
他是不是也可以來這邊既然你都已經編了這也是我們編的公務預算其實我們就是想要幫助這些因為災害失業的人嘛對不對其實我們其實近期已經把他的適用範圍盡量擴大了然後當然比如怎麼擴大你可以告訴我嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14055.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14075.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
報委員基本上如果他不是涉及在災區但是他是外地到災區工作是工作者也是可以那你覺得工資的這個天花板有辦法再往上提嗎那時候其實我們是已經定在要點裡面他就是以這個最低工資為上限好 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14075.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14101.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那我會再固定好我會再固定跟你們追每個月你們的執行成效如何好嗎我們希望這筆公務預算已經編了就要幫助到最多人我們跟文說我們其實在林宮這部分我們都是主動的我們不是被動等待人家申請而是主動告訴他說你可以來申請我甚至可以幫你然後甚至我們一直去問他有沒有這個需求可是確實現在災區的目前幾個部尤其地方政府狀況有點混亂他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14102.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14108.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我現在在救災我現在可能沒有辦法一下去做這些事情我們期待你未來幾個月謝謝謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請楊耀委員發言請蔡易瑜委員發言蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14135.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14149.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
謝謝主席 主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14153.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14177.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人 我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播因為很多勞工階層廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對 然後也包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14181.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14198.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14199.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14215.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
對 當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14216.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14229.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14231.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14250.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴當然那這個是免費的宣傳當然而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長就是多加利用其實工會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14251.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14266.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
其實整體的覆蓋率還不是這麼高所以有很多它比方說現在減半休息的企業它不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦 我是這樣子 我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14267.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14294.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論這樣子部長我問一下就是說9月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14296.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14324.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14326.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14353.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
遭受 讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14354.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14370.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14373.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14382.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14386.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14405.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14407.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14435.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
所以全面性的了解還沒有完成對 就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供全面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14436.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14459.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以布裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14460.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14482.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14484.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14511.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
過去勞動部這邊並沒有將將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有那現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14512.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14534.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14535.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14544.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14545.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14570.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
可是如果人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介沒有很清楚的告訴企業現在這些關於移工的勞動人權的問題已經會變成你的營運的經濟風險的時候這個風險就變成是企業在承擔可是他對於風險的資訊就不了解所以我想我們在協助裡面我覺得第一步很重要的事情是要讓企業有能力去做這樣的風險評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14572.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14593.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14596.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14608.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14610.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14638.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作然後我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫然後來去協助廠商指引要趕快出 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14640.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14661.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14665.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14690.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
14691.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
14718.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟體育執行的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
14720.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
14743.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
14747.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
14768.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
14768.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
14783.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程度做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有一些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
14784.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
14809.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那這林護衛移工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來自己來負擔對 這樣巨大就表示他們對 就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
14811.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
14821.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
對 這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
14821.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
14847.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是移工零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟移工來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
14853.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
14859.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
謝謝楊耀委員發言最後我們請劉建國委員發言謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
14878.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
14881.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
劉仁豪 部長好 部長可以看一下這次勞動部網站這個勞僱雙方協商減少工時實施人數的 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
14887.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
14911.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
統計的頁面然後最主要是這樣這個實施無薪假的加速從5月中148家到現在9月底已經攀升到398家這是你們的統計表那人數也從5月中2664人一直到9月底是8505人也就是說等於5月中到9月底實施減班的休息加速暴增2.7倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
14913.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
14938.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
然後實施人數更急增到3.2倍這數字應該沒有錯嘛然後我在一樣在這個委員會是在6月4號的時候我特別有這個提醒部長當時這個無薪假的加數155加然後人數是2831人我希望部長可能要趕快的及早應應那個時候那個時候部長也特別有回應我有幾個事情嘛那我們等一下來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
14940.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
14953.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
然後但是到目前為止這個五金加人數已經來到8505人會不會很快就突破一萬大關我們的確是要做這個減慢休息數字會再增加的這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
14955.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
14970.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
所以說會很快喔如果部長這樣答覆我的感覺就是很快會突破到一萬大關嘛對不對好那我們就是要再快速的因應還有相關的你們之前所提出來就是說雇用安定的措施嘛然後還有這個充電再出發訓練的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
14972.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
14991.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
我當時是特別提到說當時在6月的時候有申請僱用安定措施減30家然後申請充電再出發訓練計畫也只有7家顯示這兩項的計畫成效不髒然後對企業或是勞工不具吸引力 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
14992.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15012.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我希望部長快速的因應之後是我可以在申請的比例到六月底前能不能提高到五成那顯然啦 現在看勞動部提供出來給我們的資料是這樣到十月的時候是申請僱用安定措施是223家有超過五成 58%申請充電再出發訓練計畫86家 只有兩成多 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15019.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15027.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
然後我們如果再談到這個人數充電站出發僅515人那對照人數只有6%這個是有問題的吧跟劉委員說明的確過去在相關的計畫裡面比較像是我如果講比較直白是以充電站出發為主因為他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15045.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15067.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
範圍比較寬那雇用安定措施的範圍能夠適用的行業比較窄那我們的確現在在這一次關稅衝擊我們把它我做了重新的設定我們現在是希望先以雇用安定措施為主因為他是直接的薪資的差額補貼因為的確會有一些廠商他現在受到關稅衝擊他說他他現在不一定有能力或不一定有意願來辦訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15069.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15097.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
所以我們也考慮到這個部分所以我們其實現在是以公安安定措施為主那充電再出發的計畫為輔但是讓他可以兩個併領他不用二則一因為以前只能二則一現在不用二則一他可以併領所以的確在這樣子的我們的優先順序的調整後看到強化版的公安安定措施他的這個申請的比率是有蠻大幅的增加應該部長導護我的意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15099.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15126.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
雇佣安定措施比較窄啦過去比較窄但是我們在8月以後蠻大幅的放寬所以我們現在其實是以雇佣安定措施作為支持減半休息勞工尤其是他的經濟收入最主要的計畫會是放在雇佣安定措施裡面因為他不用參訊 不用辦訊他的程序上面更加的簡便但過去是比較窄的然後反而是充電債出發是比較寬比較寬嘛 對不對所以我們把它顛倒過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15128.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15148.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
但是你比較寬的緩額申請的加速才佔的這個21%然後比較窄的緩額可以達到5成8因為原本國安定錯是只有3個行業現在我們把它放寬到9個行業是啊 所以你們是禮拜二宣布的嘛 對不對在充電計劃這個勞工參選及企業辦選的相關規定鬆綁是禮拜二對 然後換寬是回溯到8月1日啟用嘛都沒有錯嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15157.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15182.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
你會不會覺得六月底到現在好像比較慢一關然後放寬規定之後你們有沒有預估到十一月可以突破到五成嗎我覺得可能沒有辦法一下通到那麼快啦可是我們希望盡量的放寬可是的確現在是我說給勞工的經濟知識是關鍵這個再衝進去的話如果參與比例還拉不起來這真的就表示不太好用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15183.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15197.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
因為他要辦訊我知道啊那你辦訊現在也沒有也把那個取消企業辦理的課程最低人數都取消掉了嘛所以真的是放得很寬嘛你放得很寬還是他不上來那就真的有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15199.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15226.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
我的潛艦嘛 對不對 給你們做參考嘛我們現在把它設定是 它是一個輔助性的啦你看喔 你雇用安定措施雖然是58%啦 但是當時我是要求部長說六月底是不是可以達到五成嘛那現在是十月欸 還是一樣五成八欸然後在八月十三的時候 老東部你們還公告喔叫做強化版雇用安定措施強化版喔 擴大適用對象 補助金額增加然後補貼併領並不衝突嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15231.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15247.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我跟委員報告因為顧問安全措施基本上他會有一個要他要減半休息30天的這個制度上設計是要減半休息30天所以我們有去了解其實現在有蠻多還沒提出申請的他可能原因是他減半休息還未滿30日 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15248.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15265.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那或者是他有一些英倍的文件還沒備齊比方說他的薪資單沒備齊也有一些企業是因為他不一定每個月每個月來申請他可以是一次申請三個月所以他可能會在之後再來去回溯前面的三個月那我們有去跟他了解那他目前還沒來提出來申請的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15266.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15286.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
如果部長這個事情如果我們要做快速運營其實我們都可以按計來討論嘛那時候我們是希望到6月底兩個計畫都可以突破到五成嘛對不對那你們八月份的時候去做一個放寬做一些調整嘛甚至也叫做強化版嘛那我們當然也是可以說6到9那9到11一個週期大家來檢討到時候還是一樣拿不起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15290.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15314.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
那顯然就是很大的一個改善的硬硬的空間嘛這樣好不好 不然這兩個計畫我覺得部長還是署都覺得是應該是可以協助勞工 協助企業的但是好像這樣的成效看起來就是應該也沒辦法達到你的標準啦簡單講是這樣啦好不好也應該沒有辦法達到署長的標準啦我目前是請我們分署盡量都是主動去問 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15315.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15335.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
你有資格申請就請你來申請我們其實都是主動不是被動等待的好了我們就11月份的時候再來追部長還是請部長這邊可以就直接來跟委員會做一個說明跟報告看執行的狀況怎麼樣跟廖少偉講也可以跟我講也可以我們都可以再來討論好 署長你們請回啦這個我再請教部長署長可以請回了 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15340.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15366.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
沒有繼續站也沒有關係陪著部長也不錯好 同島一命啦那全台一心救花蓮這花蓮的災害看起來就像昨天我催省部長的這個事情不是只有這個因為展現出這樣的愛心然後放棄自己的這個可以賺錢的機會然後投入在這個災區然後導致這個生命的喪失很多事情都是讓我們都非常感動跟動容的啦那你看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15368.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15383.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
這個著這樣的裝 背著包包然後在那邊酷熱的四十度底下在挖在挖 在清不然我自己有氣啦這個頭頂頭真的是站不住了真的是站不住 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15387.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15404.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
你在身體力壯的年輕小伙子甚至阿兵哥你看阿兵哥都穿長袖的他不是要防曬因為他必須要著的這個制服那其他人幾乎幾乎幾乎反正我很難去形容那個地方而且那個粉塵非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15405.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15424.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那非常枯熱然後車輛的行駛又特別多雖然都已經有管制了那是一車一車一車這樣再進然後一車一車再出來然後還有這個搬運這個污泥的搬運很多的物資的車輛來來回回其實一般人在那個地方站一個鐘頭可能就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15426.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15451.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
都沒了啦 然後況且還在那邊挖啦那我是要特別提醒啦 特別提醒縱暑如果沒有及時降溫會導致器官衰竭 甚至死亡這是醫界一直在講的所以熱傷害跟縱暑這不是開玩笑的事情所以這些志工超人如此啦那平時在戶外高溫下工作的勞工他們也是處於在一個高縱暑風險的環境當中來做這個工作這部長你應該可以認同嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15456.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15483.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
然後你看這個氣候的極端的發展全球高溫的持續這樣的一個紀錄今年8月世界衛生組織還有這個世界氣象組織也首度的發布了針對勞工熱傷害的健康最新的這樣的指引顯示這個高溫對全球勞工健康的威脅已經達到前所未有的緊急程度這兩個組織都已經發出這樣聲音也訂出了這樣相關指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15484.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15503.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
連日本 更是在去年的夏季創世亞史上最熱的7月紀錄然後隨即著手強化防護措施今年新的規定 若這個7月降溫有責 沒房中暑要花50萬日元等於新台幣是10萬元左右的花款 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15505.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15519.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
所以我在2018年的時候本期就針對勞工熱傷害的議題有追尋過這個勞動部但是我們對執行法對熱傷害的概念啦坦白講還遠不如對岸還遠不如對岸2018的時候你看現在幾年幾年了2025了7年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15524.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15548.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
所以我是希望那個時候當然在隔年就2019的時候我們有發布這個高溫高氣溫作業熱危害的預防指引在2019年的1月的時候但是一樣面對這個極端期望我覺得這個指引已經不夠了光是這個指引絕對不夠然後氣象署也在規劃修氣象法針對高溫的部分規劃增列為災害性天氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15553.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15573.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
這是氣象署所以我不曉得勞動部是否應該針對高溫所產生的勞工的熱傷害然後配合氣象署的修法規劃有沒有更積極的因應作為請部長簡單說跟委員說明其實關於這個高氣溫作業危害熱危害的預防指引其實我們在今年6月的時候再修了一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15574.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15591.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那在這個版本裡面其實把包括有一些相關的工作的類別都放進來包括這些自營作業者包括舉牌工包括外送員我們都把它放進來那其實如果可以對應到現在職安法的修訂的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15593.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15619.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
包括現在大家很關注的外送員的熱傷害假設如果平台業者沒有提供協助的話甚至都是可以開罰的我們會有直接上面法規並不是只是一個單純沒有牙齒的指引而已其實我們都把它訂出來那也包括我們其實在10月的時候應該是9月的時候我們其實有提出一個包括一些熱危害的預防的設備的一個補助的計畫包括風扇衣然後包括一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15621.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
15646.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
預防的設備那其實我們都有提出一個補助計畫那的確這是大家會越來越重視的一個問題那我這個這一次從六月到現在其實我們也請治安署加強如果沒有很多的工地包括營造業戶外工作如果沒有做好高溫危害的話其實加強的稽查甚至要去確認改善的部分其實也都是在這幾個月裡面其實我們做了蠻多的突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
15646.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
15655.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
所以部長現在的答覆就是說我們有在修的指引有對那職安法都不需要再動職安法現在要修嗎要修嘛對不對還是要從法律的這方面來做修正職安法我們這次的修訂裡面應該是50條我記得是50條 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
15663.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
15681.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那修訂完以後其實就可以對於一些剛剛在講到一些這些執行原本是準用可以變成適用適用以後我們其實可以直接來開發包括剛剛說對外送員或者是這些相關更多的業業這個工作者的部分所以我們就執行法的時候來討論了是ok好好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
15685.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
15703.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
謝謝劉建國委員發言那本日會議詢答全部結束那委員徐欣盈 劉許廷 王育敏 蘇清泉盧憲一所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定一 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
15704.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
15725.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定最後本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝感謝大家辛苦了 |