| IVOD_ID |
16932 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16932 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-09T08:32:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-09T12:20:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:47:17 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4a1b1968cb0ca4a1bc85bd070859401e2eb94a68550f7b5b192ca48d82fc840a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:43 - 12:20:00 |
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好 現在繼續開會喔那我們首先先介紹道場委員黃國昌委員已經應邀列席的官員那麼今天主要是考試院的業務報告所以歡迎秘書長 林秘書長還有權敘處的工科藝工處長秘書處的吳瑞蘭處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1719.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1730.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
還有會計師的蘇芳玉主任然後考選部的劉孟琦部長群衆部的聖誕節部長以及保訓會的蔡主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1734.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1760.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那麼其餘的介紹 其餘的這個關於我們就不再逐一介紹並列入公報那麼本日的議程主要是邀請考試院的秘書長 考選部部長 循序部部長以及公務人員保障及培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫並備質詢那麼我們就現在先進行報告那麼因為今天口頭報告的機關代表只有四位每發言的時間就每位 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1760.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1766.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
三分鐘為限 麻煩請控制這個時間首先先請劉秉樹長進行報告 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安今天很榮幸的李爾錫貴委員會來報告考試院的業務概況對於貴院委員過去對本院的各項預算法案和施政的支持跟指教也藉此機會表達由衷的感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1784.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1813.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
周榮憲院長所領導的第十四屆考試院雖然就任還不滿一年但是有賴於團隊合作還有跟各界的支持跟敦促我們已經積極地推動多項考全保訓業務的改革和精進首先是強化公部門霸凌防治跟安全衛生的防護感謝各位的支持在上個會期通過了保障法部分條文及考機法第十二條修正案強化了公務體系對於職場霸凌的防治規範也增訂了相關的法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1814.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1836.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
本院也同步修訂了安慰辦法配套增訂了職場霸凌的申訴跟處理的專節高風險職務的安全衛生防護專節還有監督檢查的專章有更完整的機制來強化各公務機關的安全防護作為來保障同仁的安全與健康其次是友善職場的法規修訂我們修訂了公務員請假規則增訂身心調試假將配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1839.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1865.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
10月10号的世界心理健康日也就是明天起实施我们修订了任用法实行细则放宽了指名商调的限制以保障公务员的任调权益我们修订了公务人员激励办法强化及时奖励并且提高奖金此外今天的考试院院会也预定要通过留职停薪办法的修正草案放宽预算价申请限制使更多公务人员能够兼顾职场与家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1866.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1884.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第三是纜財跟流財機制的強化我們調升了中央四級機關主管職等合理反映他們的職責程度以有效的激勵及留用人才我們也調整了官等職等員和配置增加了中高階人力禁用的空間來滿足機關用人實際的需求我們也刪除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1885.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1908.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
警察跟海巡人員考試的身高限制來廣納人才投入公務工作有關考試院未來的工作重點我們會持續的強化落實職場霸凌防制還有安全衛生防護機制的以及訓練另外我們會推動考選法規與時俱進以滿足公務機關用人的需要會優化電子證書作業的流程來提升服務效率跟安全性 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1908.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1925.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
并且持续的扩大推动电脑化测验来符合考生的需求精进公务员自主投资的业务来提升作业效率至于本院的代审法案去年韩清审议的协会法修正草案放宽公务员结社权跟协商权并且提升协会功能也请贵院能够会以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1925.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1946.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
以上幾就近期重要業務執行情形跟未來工作重點提出簡要的報告那本院會持續使考選方式與時俱進切合青年世代需要也會配合國家發展跟社會的變遷來持續精進人事法治建構友善的工作環境以吸引更多優秀人才加入公部門敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝好 謝謝那麼接下來我們再請考選部的劉部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1959.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1978.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早感謝大院委員對考選部的支持與協助使各項業務得以順利推展2014年考選部預定辦理20項國家考試截至9月已舉行15項考試其餘5項考試均已預定期程籌辦中目前公務人員考試入局約1萬4千人專機人員考試榜試及及格約2萬8千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1984.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2002.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
此外,本部因應用人需求研修考選法則並定期建置與更新題庫試題,辦理測驗技術發展相關委託研究案,並持續擴大電腦化測驗試用類科,今年7月已納入語言治療師及聽力師考試,同時擴充電腦化測驗作業容量,今年新增944席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2004.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2028.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
全國電腦化測驗作為總市與擴增接近18000席另外本部持續邀請用能機關協力致大學宣導國家考試並協助大學檢視學校課程與國家考試科目對應情形為提供應考人良好應試品質本部也持續完善國家考場應試環境及設施在115年施政重點部分明年預定舉辦20項考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2030.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2051.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
本部將依考試期程穩健辦理事務工作並持續配合用人需求滾動研修考選法制同時善用院際溝通平台強化考訓用聯繫及合作以及持續檢討高普考試部分類科硬式科目內涵及硬式科目數本部也將根據充實並精進試題品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2053.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2079.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
包含持續建置更新題庫及推動測驗發展並執行護理師國家考試體育經濟計畫在推動國家考試數位轉型部分將持續偵辦電腦化測驗並擴展試用內科穩定擴充電腦化測驗容量建構行動化電腦市場並強化偶發事件因應助理措施另外強化國家考試宣導策略本部將積極推動大學國考課程地圖促進教考連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2081.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2099.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
以上報告最後本部積極打造多元化應試環境及優化考場設施妥善執行國家考試為常及數位多功能考場大樓興建計畫並整建修繕國家考場環境設施以上報告敬請各位委員繼續給予本部支持與指教各項施政重點的詳細內容也請參閱書面報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2105.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2110.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好 謝謝 那接下來我們請局序部 施部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2117.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2139.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席各位委員大家早安謝謝各位委員對本部的支持以下報告今年本部主要的業務執行說明我想我們做了不少事情都在書面報告裡面有我想第一項我們也提出考記法來修正案這配合保障法所以只要是違反重大服務紀律的這個者都可以作為一次計量大過免職的一個條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2140.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2167.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第二件事情這是對所有的中央跟地方政府的公務同仁非常重要的我們做一次通盤性的所有有關各機關的這個職稱跟官等的這個植物配置準則的一個修正這個已經發布然後我們也根據這個也做了未來要繼續做這個植物列等的一個配置的一個修正植物列等的一個修正那這植物列等的一個修正對於中央跟地方的建任職等的同仁來講是一個非常重要的一個修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2168.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2183.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那第四件事情呢我想我們修正了這個請假規則包括剛剛我們藝術館講的包括身心調適假事實上還有其他的一些項目都放進來包括說比方出任的公務人員我們就有三天的休假我想這次都是對於創造一個友善的工作職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2184.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2206.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所做的減價規則的一個修正我們修正的指明商調了一個規定指明商調我們平衡的公務同仁需求還有傭人機關的需求做一個適當的放寬的修正當然我們修訂了激勵辦法事實上我們希望讓各機關有更及時的工具能夠獎勵他的優秀同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2209.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2234.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們也修正了流子停薪辦法我想就是我們三組育嬰留孫的這個停薪那個但出了一個規定所以未來不需要一定要父母或者是這個祖母雙方各自反正大家都可以我們放寬了自省 零用了一些極限的一個限制那事實上我們也做了聘僱人員離子給予辦法的一個修正讓他的這個離子的一個金額能夠更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2235.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2259.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
事實上我們部裡面當然有很多例行性的工作我們繼續辦理了到目前為止已經辦了43萬一件的全省案件這個是很大的一個工作量我們也持續監督我的基金管理局做好所有相關的基金的投資效益也都大概都維持蠻穩定的未來我們會繼續檢討所有相關重要人事法制的合一性我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2260.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2290.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
各式各樣的人事法制能夠同時兼顧政府整體機關管理跟公務人員的需求的恆平性第二個我們對於這個所屬的這個特輔基金儲基金還有公保準備金我們還是秉持著穩健投資的一個原則繼續提高長期的這個績效那最後一個是我們部裡面的這個全選作業系統的資訊系統這個一定要能夠把它更新因為我們每年大概要省50萬的一個案件這個如果我們做得好的話會有助於我們的效率以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2293.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2296.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好 謝謝施部長接下來我們再請蔡主委報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2304.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2326.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天非常感謝能夠奉邀列席貴委員會同時也非常感謝各位委員對保訓會的長期的支持跟指導讓我們的業務能夠推動得很順利首先先跟各位報告114年保訓會及國家五官學院的幾項重要的施政的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2326.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2356.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第一個部分就是有關於這個我們剛剛秘書長有提到的我們完備了職場80的一個申訴及防治處理相關法制提升法律的位階那這邊非常非常的感謝這個大院在這個6月24號三讀通過然後預定在明年的1月9號開始正式實施保障法這當中的相關的新的修正然後呢感謝各位委員的支持讓行政機關呢能夠在整個的安全及衛生法制呢邁入一個新的階段那同時呢也 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2357.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2364.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個配合著這個保障法的修正我們在安慰辦法呢今年7月1號已經開始正式的實施那目前各機關的這個落實的情況呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2366.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2396.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
基本上呢都大致上都有遵循法律的相關的規定也因此呢我們是在7月1號以後呢開始舉辦了非常多場的這個宣導參加的人數呢已經目前包含各式各樣的宣導還有這個各機關的應邀大概已經超過2000人的觸及率同時也有線上的課程然後呢配合整個保障法的一個修正因應明年保障法的一個落實還有安慰辦法的已經開始在執行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2397.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2415.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我們已經完成了八則的通則跟第一則的問答集同時也修正了公務人員一般健檢實施要點還有各機關公務人員執行職務遭受職場霸凌防治處理原則職場霸凌防治申訴及調查處理要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2416.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2444.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
各機關安全及衛生設施管理要點各機關辦理安全及衛生防護抽查作業實施要點這些都已經正式在實施的那有關於培訓業務的部分呢我們今年的法定基礎訓練呢截至目前為止9月已經完成了4546人那升官等訓練呢自9月底完成有2811人合計將近9000人那到年底目前還有很多班別正在進行到年底呢預計會超過1萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2446.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2464.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那有關於這個行政中立的法定事項呢也一樣我們透過更多元的方式那觸及率讓它更廣此外呢我們也繼續的在進行這個很多的法定的這個教材等等的一個修編同時也積極的參與國際上面的培訓的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2465.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2488.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
今年有跟法國比利時還有墨西哥都有簽了一些MOU跟進行實質上的雙邊交流那115年的工作重點主要幾項第一個配合保障法跟安慰辦法將訂定審議標準跟裁罰的相關規範讓整個的安慰的部分能夠更加的落實其他就是有關升官等的部分繼續能夠繼續進行 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2494.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2513.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝蔡主委的報告好的那麼現在機關代表都報告完畢那相關書面報告內容呢請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那現在就開始進行詢答那本會委員的詢答時間為八分鐘必要時候得延長兩分鐘那非本會委員的質詢時間為五分鐘並不再延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2515.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2532.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
有關於這個詢答的登記到上午10點30分就截止發言登記那我們現在就先請登記第一位黃國昌委員進行詢答謝謝主席 麻煩有請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2539.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2557.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
委員長秘書長早警察人員事條例在今年4月25號總統已經公佈生效了這是一個三讀通過總統公佈有效的法律那之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間當中請教權序部的官員他明確的表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2558.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2581.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所有考試院會依法行政目前正在有關於進行電腦系統重新的準備需要一些時間所以今年12月底以前針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變這個沒有改變沒有改變現在持續在進行當中行政上的工作我們都在準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2583.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2606.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以12月以前會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定還在激發是嗎計畫上是這樣那個部長這邊應該也沒有問題這個時程沒有改變嗎沒有改變下一個問題我們之前在討論的都是之前已經退休的因為法律有變更退休的所得替代率變更所以要重新計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2608.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2636.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了我在4月25號以後申請退休譬如今年夏天今年夏天7月或8月的時候我申請退休這個時候選區部針對法律生效了以後它所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法應該是依照新法確定依照新法嗎確定依照新法嗎你們核定函是按照新法計法所得替代率嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2637.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2666.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我是不是請市部長來做可以請因為我現在我必須講個比較直接的我在準備這個題目的時候我有請教我們立法院最近這兩個月退休的警察同仁那因為平常跟他們有互動所以我就關心這個事但是他們跟我反映的事情是說法律生效了以後退休的人他收到了審定函還是按照舊法不是按照新法所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2667.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2692.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但是你們說是用新法那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎還是怎麼樣那我跟委員報告我們對於新退休的同仁本來就是兩個法律根據原來的退服法我們核多少然後根據調整的警察人士條例會核多少所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩個事情同時說明清楚兩個審定函同時說明清楚一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情OK 好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2693.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2714.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
他從審定還生效了以後所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算應該是講說如果根據退伏法應該支的就是馬上發給但是因為警察人士條例的差額這部分我們就先審定你應該拿多少但是那個差額就等那個核定完以後然後會補差額 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2717.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2734.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
對不起 我聽不懂你發給一個人他退休的時候退休金領多少錢的審定函對他基本上是一個行政處分對 沒錯那個行政處分它本身所發生的效率範圍到底是按照新法計算退休金還是按照舊法計算退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2735.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2751.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我跟委員報告就是那個審理法從此說明兩件事是我知道就法你多少你說明欄怎麼講都OK剛剛你已經說明過了我說那個行政處分對外部的法律世界發生法律效力的退休金是按照新法計算還是就法計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2753.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2774.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我就說他兩個都包括對 好那如果兩個都包括包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嘛這樣說沒有錯嘛那雖然對外發生法律效力但是他現在針對新法所通過的那個退休金他現在領不到是嗎對為什麼因為那個還沒有計算出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2775.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2792.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
新法的還沒有計算出來因為新法有那所的替代率80%所以我們在那個審定函裡面有特別交代一個程序我們只是程序交代這樣好了啦就是說你們在發那個審定函的時候不要涉及到任何人的個資譬如說那警察叫什麼名字身分證字號幾號 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2795.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2814.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
他年紀這個全部都不用你所講的兩個部分的那個審定函你會後可不可以提供給我沒有問題我們就把因為我現在覺得很困惑因為警察同仁跟我反映說不是三讀通過了嗎三讀通過不是按照新法嗎那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2815.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2839.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個是他們現在他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益啊是立法院三讀通過的法律啊當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰他可能自己以為他是大法官他有他的法律見解不管你們考試院的事但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政只有這件事情而已你確定給他們的函上面有依照刑法計算的然後等你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2841.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2855.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
公事處理完了以後電腦系統完了以後該補給他們的都會補給他們是嗎因為那個後面的錢並不是我們退補基金支的那個就是由行政就是根據法律應該是內政部那邊去支的所以要等那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2856.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2873.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
預算編列完成他們才補到差那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情因為這些公務員對於國家的公法上金錢債權不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別啦這個是行政法的ABC啦我想不用特別解釋應該都清楚啦只是到時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2874.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2899.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
該依法編列的預算沒有編列那導致國家的公法上金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話而引發進一步後續的行政訴訟甚至大規模的集體訴訟在取得勝訴確定判決了以後對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上面的強制執行走到那一步 我必須要說啦就很難看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2900.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2928.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
就很難看了那個是政府的失職啦那當然我希望行政院可以迷途知返這件事不要再發生然後第二件事情是公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義由誰來加以解釋我講的不是具體個案的事實認定喔是法律適用如果不是通案性的一個解釋是由主管機關 我們全序部會做解釋由主管機關 全序部來加以解釋嗎好 來 我來請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2929.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2954.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
之前 我在這邊公開質疑之前 擔任民進黨中常委後來接任續產會的董事長年薪將近300萬的書字分有沒有行政人員中立法的適用答案是有 我已經得到答案是有當然在個案的追究上 我就覺得很奇怪中央續產會很閒嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2957.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2975.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
領一年將近三百萬結果跑去搞大罷免上班都不用上班真的很閒嗎牽涉到具體個案認定的部分任市長率先表態這件事情不應該不應該這樣做不應該發生但是取決於他有請假沒有請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2976.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3001.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以這個就是牽涉到主管機關也就是具體個案事實認定農業部回函給我說7月18號到7月25號蘇志芬董事長已經請假那因為請假了請假他要去做什麼樣的事情那個就是他政治參與活動的自由沒有違法對於農業部所表達這樣子一個法規上面的立場是不是也是玄敘部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3002.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3031.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
就是公務人員他只要有請假譬如說今天星期四我請假我沒有領國家的薪水那我要去參與大罷免的活動這個是公務人員他們的政治自由是嗎我跟委員報告根據中立法因為它是屬於准用的對象那准用的對象裡面有些是屬於你任何時間都不應該做的有些是你可以請假做的而且什麼活動你可以做什麼活動你不可以做這我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3031.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3050.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們通案檢視這樣那至於這個個案本身到底是什麼樣的狀況我現在沒有要跟你講個案了現在我在講的原則就是公務人員我只要有請假就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動基本的法律原則是不是這樣還是只有對書字分是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3052.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3063.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
如果他是屬於請假但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到譬如說運用到公共資源什麼之類的在法律裡面有這樣一個規定對所有的公務人員都一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3065.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3087.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對吧所有的公務人員一體施行沒有 這個原則很重要他還是有一些基本那個不同的法條會框進來啦是啦 我了解啦但是我現在在講的是說其實我只要你講一個立場啦這個事情不是書字分有特權啦是所有的公務人員你要請假的時候只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定這本來就是你的政治參與自由嘛沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3088.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3110.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那你大大方方說是就好了讓所有的公務人員心裡都有數嘛大家以後休假的時候都有政治參與的自由嘛不用擔心被扣上一個違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子嘛或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨不能去幫在野黨幫執政黨沒事幫在野黨可能會出事不要出現這樣的狀況就好了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3112.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3127.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我們中立法就是說請假是你的一個權益但是你在參與政治活動也不能違反中立法裡面相關的規定那如果沒有請假呢沒有請假就會有問題沒有請假就會有問題嘛沒有關係這個不牽涉到權序部的職權啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3133.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3160.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我到時候再請農業部繼續追農業部說他7月18號到25號是請假但我現在看他公開在上班的時間這上班的時間7月10號 7月11號全部都是上班日在臉書上面公開發文倡議大惡霸在上班的時間上面在臉書上面公開發文倡議大惡霸這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3161.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3176.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
如果是上班的時間如果是上班 這個確定是上班的時間對 他沒有請假因為個案我不清楚沒有關係 你只要表達這個原則就好了啦具體的個案 接下來農業部要去做處理時間的關係啊 最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3178.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3207.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
之前我一直很關心考機的制度因為考機的制度攸關於全中華民國的公務員我們希望一個考機的制度去獎勵認真負責的人而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理抱大腿的人我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則但問題是我們過去的考機制度非常的不合理列甲等的比例不於75%那同時官等越大甲等的比例越高 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3208.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3235.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候我說這個考機制度要不要改每一個從院長副院長到考試委員全部都提出強烈的批判全部都提出強烈的批判要改革但我覺得有點納悶的事情是考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫今天提出來的這個針對考機制度的改革一個字都沒有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3237.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3264.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那所以當初的考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家說考機制度不合理我們要改革結果行使同意權當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後就沒把他當一回事嗎是這樣嗎跟委員說明周院長有指示考機的這個部分考機法修正的部分也是在立法院行使同意權大家的一個共同的看法跟承諾所以這個事情必須要推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3264.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3290.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那沒有寫在報告裡面主要是因為現在大概還在內部的討論階段但是跟委員說明現在的狀況就是我們內部有做一個意見交換那現在全序部這邊也形成了一個草案那我們內部討論之後呢就會跟各機關來交換意見這樣好不好因為我聽秘書長這樣子講我可以理解啦但是我還是有一些困惑啦把它當成是一個重要的事情要做就應該寫在書面報告裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3293.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3306.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
否則的話立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要我們有在做這些事情只存在你們的內心啊國會不知道公務人員不知道人民也不知道沒有關係上一次我請教這個問題的時候你說你會忠實轉達我的意見這個意見有忠實轉達嗎有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3315.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3338.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
因為今天的書面報告針對這個部分顯然考試院的正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚的表達到底要怎麼樣來加以履行針對這個部分是不是可以請主席裁示請考試院會後提交一個補充的報告來 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3339.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3368.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
他們打算怎麼做現在進度到哪裡因為我現在沒有要你攤牌嘛沒有要你攤牌說你到底考機制度要怎麼改嘛但最起碼過去的這段時間當中幾月幾號召開了什麼會議進行了什麼準備到目前為止的工作進度如何打算什麼時候要把東西提出來這些事情應該要讓國會知道吧這個要求不會太過分吧可以 我們可以提供可以 需要多久放完假以後交來好嗎下個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3369.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3396.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
下禮拜就是說把我們現在的進度跟處理狀況是 因為我在你們的書面報告裡面我一個字都沒看到了解我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告這樣的話可能有點太重了畢竟你們各個部會裡面寫的東西以次數來講跟行政院其他部會比起來相對而言是比較充實啦但是重要的事情該寫的還是要寫所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來好嗎可以好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3398.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3410.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好 謝謝黃委員那也請秘書長這裡要依照黃委員的指示就是在下禮拜就把補充報告交出來好 謝謝好 那接下來我們就請吳宗憲委員詢答我們麻煩秘書長好 有請秘書長然後待會那個也是要請教全區部長好 也請市部長可以稍微等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3428.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3441.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
委員長早安早 民主黨早安我想民主黨我們首先我先提一下就是說因為一般人民搞不清楚常任文官跟政務官有什麼不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3442.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3468.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我想我還是要說明一下政務官他跟一般基層的公務員常任文官其實不同像行政院底下像內政部長或財政部副部長政次發言人秘書長等等的這些不是靠國家考試進來的而是由執政者去任命的這個是政務官但是政務官通常也是行政體系裡面的領導階層 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3469.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3493.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
秘書長這樣理解有沒有錯誤沒有錯誤我想像秘書長你也是算政務官不過我這邊先說明就是秘書長你說我見過民進黨裡面政務官裡面真的是非常有就是我覺得整個中立性以及專業度我覺得是非常欽佩的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3495.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3521.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
民進黨裡面有一些政務官其實我就比較沒有那麼認同但是您是我非常認同的一位政務官那我想請教一下就是既然是國家的政務官他也是領國家的薪水這是人民的納稅錢那到底有沒有行政中立的義務我想這個問題我們已經討論過好幾次了我想還是請您再說一次他到底有沒有在行政上有沒有中立的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3523.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3538.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
行政中立當然就是看政務官的性質他還是有多多少少一定會有行政中立上面相關的規範只是說政務官跟事務官他們在行政中立上面他們的程度不同以及他們的法律依據不同我想這個應該沒有論述錯誤吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3541.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3559.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那在行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實當時也有提到說政務官的行政中立其實當然不是跟一般常任務官的行政中立用同一個法律來規範但是還是要另立專法對不對要不要另立專法這個當然見仁見智我們尊重立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3560.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3585.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
但是至少他政務官還是有行政中立的義務存在現在的行政中立法也有這樣的行政中立法那我想請問一下因為之前我們大家都知道有一個群組外洩出來就是裡面有81位民進黨的政務官以及立委以及一些黨工那裡面又提到一些什麼就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3586.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3612.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
有人有政務官回應說有立委說要釋出殺傷力的訊息但是有政務官說收到而且要跟市方就是內政部長討論處理中那我想這個部分以您的想法政務官明明拿的是人民的薪水但卻在這邊幫忙做政治的攻防甚至打選戰那這個是不是就是一個行政不中立我想請教一下秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3614.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3635.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個因為我不在這個群組中所以我沒有辦法看到完整的他的對話所以沒有辦法做判斷好吧當然我先說明一下就是寫殺傷力的這個委員當然他後來有解釋殺傷力是什麼意思他說真相對造謠者有殺傷力就是我覺得大家都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3637.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3654.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
中文都是母語大家用字遣詞的習慣其實也都一樣這有沒有硬凹我想國人都會有一個公平當然你說硬凹的這種東西我以前開庭看多了被告硬凹凹的比他更誇張的多的是但在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3655.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3666.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這段文字解釋成說真相對造謠者的殺傷力我想沒關係啦這個說的人自己喜歡聽就好了那我想大部分的人民其實不會買單那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3671.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3686.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這個群組的這個問題其實顯現的一個狀況就是當政務官跟政黨綁在一起的時候其實政府就已經不是政府就變成黨的機器了嘛那我很多次我也不會言的跟大家報告說我以前是民進黨的信徒 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3687.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3712.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
因為我深愛民進黨的親連情 正愛相圖以民進黨以前對於國民黨的批判不應該黨國一體不應該手伸進媒體 學校 軍隊等等的公務體系但是今天他沒有做到他反而手伸得更進去甚至以前他最追求的言論自由現在變成是很不言論自由所以這個就是我覺得開始去反思說我以前支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3713.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3732.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
的那一群人可能因為人員的更換招牌一樣但是內容已經不一樣所以我才會覺得這樣對嗎就是當你把黨務跟國家綁在一起就變成黨國一體的狀況這也不是一個民主國家的常態最近我們看到的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3733.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3750.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
人民繳的稅金我希望拿來救災而不是救選情也不是救執政的民調的滿意度所以政務官應該為國做事而不是為政黨出權公僕不應該變成是黨僕這是我一直以來我的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3751.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3777.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
所以很多時候政務官的不中立會變成是人民對於政府不信任對政府信任度瓦解的開始所以我想我還是要提出這個我想請問因為您剛剛一直說你不了解你不在群組內不了解所以有一些問題要請問你那我想說你說不了解還是您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3778.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3783.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
政務官搭配立委以及黨工在群組裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3785.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3808.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
發表這樣的言論 您認同嗎您自己是政務官 您的立場我覺得是這樣啦 這個事情都會反映到當一個災害發生的時候 大家都很關心那在第一時間 一定大家社會有各種說法還有一些訊息 那一定有一些不一定是刻意造謠 但可能是也許是不正確的理解在流傳 也有可能那作為民意代表 我相信每一位都會很心急 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3809.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3827.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
也是希望行政部門要趕快把事情說清楚能夠把這個狀況釐清所以我想這個大概可以這裡面看得出來大家在第一時間都很關心也希望政府能夠趕快有行動當然我也相信很多民進黨的立委以及政務官都是非常用心在為這個國家做事這個我也認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3829.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3849.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
但是這個群組裡面他有很多是也許是在討論一些救災等等的這個我沒有意見但是單就這個某個特定委員要求說趕快釋出拒殺傷例的這個訊息我是不認同這句話那我更不認同說掛著職稱譬如說總統府秘書長等等的職稱的這個賴的這個怎麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3856.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3882.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
塗貼名稱然後用這個理由去加入到政治的攻擊這個我們是不認同我也不認為政治人物政務官該做這種事情否則我就覺得那以後大家就黨國一體就大家亂搞民主國家政黨輪替是正常是不是換一個政黨之後大家就來搞同一套我不認同這樣我還是覺得民主國家要有民主國家的樣子存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3885.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3907.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
更何況殺傷力這個東西這個也不是正常的一些政策或政策協調上面的用語我想我們在用政策協調用語不用殺傷力這個否則你們考試院有可能說我們今年的執行率我們增加了20%的殺傷力我想不會用這樣的用語 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3908.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3921.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以自始至終我不認同這個是那位委員他的論述方式我再請問一下 不好意思你們考試院曾經有提過一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3930.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3955.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
曾經有提過一個版本就是有關政務人員中立的這個版本那我想請教一下我這次看到的這個群組裡面的這些政務官他讓我的感覺是什麼我想先請您告訴我在這個災難的期間你不救人你反而去協調政黨的攻防那這樣子是不是違背政務官這個代表政府應該有的職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3956.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3973.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
是不是我看在這個災難發生的時候這個中央或者是地方很多人大家都是很努力的去要去處理這個問題民主黨 這個我不否認我也跟民主黨報告我不是說一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3974.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4000.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
民進黨就壞人 不是大部分的民進黨的立委我都非常的尊重大部分的民進黨的政務官我也很尊重他們他們很多時候也在為這個國家努力做事但是我意思是說有少部分或偶爾有幾件這樣子的事情發生我覺得國人不能接受我從來沒有否定掉這些委員們對於國家的貢獻我從來沒有否認像在座王一川委員他也對國家很多貢獻我也從來沒有否認所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4003.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4022.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
您不用跟我回答說救災期間大家很努力我覺得這個我不是聚焦在這邊我只是意見是說當救災期間政務官卻陪著立法委員在那邊搞這些殺傷力的訊息他說好 那他就要找誰處理你覺得這樣適當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4027.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4049.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我覺得還是要釐清他們到底在對話的內容到底是要講什麼不方便講這個啦我也可以理解啦在現行我們整個國家制度以及民進黨內對於思想控制的情況下我認為政務官不敢講真話這已經變成是一個國家常態而且是國家的悲哀大家不敢把真正的話說出來但事實上我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4050.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4076.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
政務官竟然已經當政務官了其實你某程度你就要跳脫政黨之間的對立而是要全力為國家人民我認為是這個樣子所以我還是回過頭去說好吧 那至少我的認定我認為在救災國家有難的期間政務官應該全力去救災而不是在群組裡面配合黨工或部分政治力比較強烈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4077.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4093.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
立委在那邊搞政治的鬥爭因為這些東西確實就會侵害到國家的利益毀損掉國家的名譽所以我剛提到的考試院當年的政務人員法第21條的立法理由其實政務官他應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4094.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4113.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
如果發生一些狀況其實他應該看整體的國家局勢他真的不戴懲戒就應該主動辭職以事負責所以這個才是政務官的風範也就是當年你們考試院對於政務官的要求這個立法是你們當年的立法但是我今天看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4115.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4139.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
執政黨執政九年多了裡面非常多的政策荒腔走板但是我們幾乎沒有看到什麼政務官願意辭職以示負責所以你們當年對於國人對於國家政務官體系的期待其實在今天我們是沒看到所以這個草案還是草案你們貴院當年的期待其實是在今天的台灣是沒有看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4142.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4168.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以這就是為什麼我一直說我們這次要著重政務人員的行政中立然後我要推出一個行為基準法就是這樣因為我們都不知道我們會在立法院多久您也不知道您會在政壇多久對不對但我們還是要給國家跟人民留下一些貢獻政務官的行政中立是非常的重要不是只有事務官需要行政中立因為政務官是事務官的長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4170.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4197.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我今天看到的狀況是一個行政院院長帶頭違憲違法立法院三讀通過的法律可以不執行就一句說我申請四憲中所以我認為這個違憲所以我不執行全世界沒有人這樣做過往我國政府也沒有人這樣做過完全違反三權分立或五權分立國家的制度他都敢這樣講那你要繼承的公務員怎麼想因為政務官是他們的長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4200.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4219.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以我說我這次我一直提倡要推這個基準法其實我是希望政務官能夠回歸法治明確界限界限那個界限的存在中立跟不中立界限要把它存在讓他們在執行權力的時候不能任性然後責任要能夠被追究所以我這次我一直堅持要提這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4221.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4243.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
基準法出來如果說貴院一直沒有辦法再提出版本那就由我們立法院來主動提因為我認為不管未來哪一個黨執政該黨的政務官就是要忠義要為國而不是為黨這是行政院長的做法我想任何一個法律人應該都很懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4245.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4267.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
有念法律或相關的其實你應該也很能夠理解哪有一個立法院三讀通過的法律行政院可以選擇不執行或者是說我釋憲中所以我不執行還可以講這種話那今天我如果對哪個法律我不喜歡那我去申請釋憲那我是不是從申請釋憲那天開始我就說我可以不遵守這條法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4268.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4292.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以我開玩笑的對大家說我對稅增基增法申請釋憲從釋憲那天開始申請那天開始我就不繳稅因為我要遵守我認為這違憲所以我要遵守憲法所以我不用繳稅其實這是荒謬的言論那行政院院長他在未來也會為他這句話去附上他一輩子的責任因為這是極端的荒謬全世界也沒有人這樣幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4294.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4320.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
不好意思 我耽誤大家很多時間最後我想花一點點時間部長不好意思我想我們剛剛提到的是行政中立的問題現在我再提一個體系上面的問題我想我們已經講了很多次了這幾年公務員的入企率越來越高但公務員入企率越來越高的原因是因為大家不想考考生越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4321.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4337.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以執政應該是要廣羅人才來為政府的服務嘛一流的人才才能為我們帶來一流的政府就現在大家不想來我們現在看到的體系變成什麼樣上面的大官在搞政治中階的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4338.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4365.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
官員沒有士氣完全提不起勁然後底下的新進人員流失流光光沒有人要來我先舉新北檢的例子2025年今年新北檢9個辭職然後後來又包括一個調布辦事的檢察官也辭職10個辭職一個地檢署才幾個檢察官一次10個檢察官離開檢察官薪水是10幾20萬一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4366.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4383.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
他都不幹了然後更不要講各級公務員一堆問題那這次離開的有我帶過以前的學習司法官他們跟我講的是一連串體系出了大問題那為什麼執政九年會把國家帶像今天這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4385.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4404.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我其實是很擔心的那中階的官員為什麼沒有士氣因為身欠無望啊上面一堆位子都由不專業的人來卡最上面的位子我想今天如果有公務員在聽我們今天他就能夠深切的體會一堆高階的官員現在都有不專業的人在那邊領軍由不專業的來領軍專業的中階公務員沒士氣上面的人違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4411.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4419.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
像行政院長違法 違憲三如通過法律不執行然後底下人只能陪著他這麼幹這樣子就沒有士氣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4421.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4447.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
解凍案已經準備好了長官叫我不可以送出去那請問一下中階的官員會有士氣嗎每個人都知道是為了罷免而不能送出解凍案但每個人都擔心預算的問題但長官不給我送這是當時一堆公務員跳出來爆料啊所以為什麼今天會搞成這樣為什麼執政之後把公務員搞得沒有尊嚴沒有保障退休金講好了後來也不給所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4449.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4452.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我想我要麻煩各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4455.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4480.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
國家走到今天這樣尤其是數字是不會騙人數字是最科學的我們看到的是報考的人數越來越少越來越少一堆中階訓練很扎實的一個一個走掉我說像新北檢走掉那個大概都是十年左右的甲官訓練剛好是體力跟經驗值剛好是最橫貧的那個時候就有一個一個走光光這個是我對於國家的憂慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4482.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4501.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
還有各行各業各個公部門都有一樣的狀況發生那我想兩位雖然是民進黨的政務官但我覺得你們對國家一定也有熱忱你們在看到國家今天變成這樣我想兩位也會擔心所以我要提出來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4503.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4514.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
麻煩一下我想幾個主張再跟兩位報告第一個我還是希望依法行政的公務員要被尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4515.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4542.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
行政院不要再用預算裁量當藉口然後把這個真的你依法該給的待遇退休金依法該辦理就辦理不要什麼都政治算計這個麻煩當然我知道院長是取決於院長那院長現在既然要跟法治跟憲法對著幹那我們也只能期待他有一天能夠迷途知返那第二個我們希望說考試院重新檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4544.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4573.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
待遇結構還有職涯的激勵包括剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的那個平等 甲等乙等的問題然後我們要讓年輕人看到真的有升遷轉任機制讓公職的人能夠回到有尊嚴的職業選擇因為我記得我剛出來當檢察官那個時代不管是待遇 不管是受人尊敬都非常的高現在我真的看不到那很多時候反而是我們政治人物把國家帶到今天這樣然後再來我覺得我要跟兩位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4574.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4602.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因為考試院一直不推出來所以我們這邊會推動政務人員行為基準法我們把政治干預還有公務體系私信的根源我們要把它去除掉我們希望說不要讓政治力還有違法的行政這些干預到我們整個國家行政體系否則你再怎麼樣都救不了我們現在公務員很低的士氣最後我還是謝謝兩位因為兩位真的都是我很敬佩的兩位政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4603.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4614.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那我們希望說我今天提這個東西兩位能夠協助我們我們一起把相關的制度把它改善然後給國家引入更好的公務人員好不好好 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4615.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4638.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 謝謝吳委員語重心長然後也希望考試院能夠儘速的提出這個政務人員法的相關的對岸那麼因為本席其實也已經在研擬政務人員法我也會 近期就會提出那我想這個是大家都很關心的議題也應該列入到你們這年度的立法計畫裡面好 那麼接下來我們就請王一川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4650.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4651.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
不是 因為我希望委員們能夠在一定的他的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4683.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4705.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我會跟委員們再個別的拜託因為要請大家要能夠遵守時間畢竟因為剛開始這個規則也許大家還不是那麼的清楚不會啦 妳第一天都講得很清楚了是 謝謝王委員 您對我的建議我所說的規則很感謝妳她要是要這樣布的計時器都拐掉 沒意思嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4706.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4732.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
要跟我說8加2 要跟我說20分錢 大家都坐在一起說錯在我 他有站起來制止我是我硬要講 錯在我不要為難主席我不會去說你主席第一天自己雙心壯志說我從現在開始我就會嚴格執行最多10分鐘那就麻煩王委員請開始我承認我之前可能處理的方式不是很妥當麻煩王委員請下 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4733.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4736.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好 謝謝 我們請考選部長好不好 謝謝委員長好 部長好 我跟你反映一件事情也在你們的報告裡頭就是說現在考公務員因為大部分來自大學 校院畢業的學生那你們有去跟大學討論課程地圖跟這個報考的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4762.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4783.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那現在發生一些問題就是說很多私立學校因為科系整併的關係那他可能兩個系併成一個系所以他的科系的名字就改了那名字改就有可能影響報考資格嘛這個沒有錯嘛好 譬如說他要考土木類科 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4784.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4808.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那他這個原來譬如說是土木工程學系什麼營建什麼系可以考類似這樣可是因為他合併以後他就可能這個科系的名字不對了跟你們原來不一樣那第二個你們當然有一個補救方法就是說那他如果大學修過哪些課至少修過多少什麼課也可以報考 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4809.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4823.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那就會發生很多學校的課程委員各系的課程委員沒有去關心這些事情就像那個大學生他畢業以後他決定要去考公務員的時候他就發現說 我不能課不能課他又回頭去跟原來的系講說我想要課 我不能課 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4832.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4845.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
結果這個系他可能就發一個公文到考選部去請考選部研議就是說我們這個大學某某系可不可以讓我們在你們的清單裡頭這個事情現在怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4848.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4864.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
跟委員報告如果是我想委員講的問題沒有錯就是如果是個案的話我們現在大概是回到我們的審議或者是說這邊解決但是可能比較徹底的解決就是我們現在正在跟各個大學去對 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4865.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4893.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
說在過去政府委員所說你過去課程委員會可能一直改結果你都不知道說自己的戲名可能跟我們那已經偏差掉了或者是說你裡面可以考的那一科我們對出來其實現在有的學校譬如說五科有四科一科不見了然後六科有四科兩科不見了那我們現在已經對過了幾個學校像東吳 成大然後我們希望接下來我們那技術是剛發展出來我們希望接下來就是說逐步的擴大去跟所有的學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4894.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4912.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
要把這個對一次好 這個要趕快做不然有一些人 剛剛就說考的人很少他不是考的人是因為他想考可是他沒辦法那邏輯上來說他就不是念這個科系可是他 如果你讓他考 他考得過對不對 他可能自學嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4916.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4919.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那培養了第二專長或者去補習班補習那他考得過我比原科系的可能考得更好那考選部對這樣的學生就這樣的考生你們有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4931.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4958.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
目前我們是分為行政類科 技術類科行政類科比較沒有問題 大部分科系這樣委員說的問題會發生在技術類科那的確 依現在的法制如果它沒有 它不在那個科系可是它是可以修一定的課程就可以來考特別技術類科不過這邊的問題就是委員剛所說的如果要畢業就沒有辦法回頭修所以我們還是盡快的去協助各個學校好 那它沒辦法修可不可以讓各大學的推廣教育開課 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4960.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4975.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
應該是我記得應該是可以可以嗎 對這個有沒有限制他只要 並沒有限制他只要對過我知道是可以好 我就是說他假設他原來大學念法律那他現在準備來考土木技術喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4976.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5000.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
然後他就去補習然後補習也沒有用因為補習只是繳錢於是他去某某大學的這個土木系的推廣教育然後他就去修了這些課也拿到了這些學分推廣教育的學分這些你們都認在他大學有修過這些課嗎只要是大學的課程就承認那現在開的狀況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5002.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5010.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個我們可能要回去再清查一下因為我們現在科系的名稱越來越長就會發生這個 名稱越來越長就是就是涵蓋範圍越來越廣 學的越來越少最後他要參加國家考試 換人說我這個學生命這麼長 結果一堆下去 我不能考這個事情 我現在發現這個很嚴重因為我以前在學校當系主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5025.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5034.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
就會有學生跑回來說主任你把我們的學名改成這樣現在海灣都不可以課海灣也不可以課改完之後畢竟他不可以課就會遇到這個課題好不好這是第一個第二請這個秘書長我們秘書長請問一下我們現在的商調機制你們現在有一些新的做法有人說就是人才嘛那他在A單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5050.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5077.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
可能就想要調V單位V單位來了一個商調函那你們現在弄了一個就是一個月要回復如果一個月沒有回復那就是第二個月就直接可以過掉嘛那後來又弄了一個這個也有一點防弊機制啦譬如說你調去三個位調到V單位三個位之後又去搞說我要去C單位了所以你們訂了一個六個月的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5077.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5084.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
六個月的機制這個機制現在在公務體系的同仁裡頭現在看起來大家都接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5085.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5113.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
跟委員報告我們在討論這個過程裡面當然要平衡兩方的需求一個是想要調的人一個是用人機關對所以我們就不斷討論完以後所以才有說六個月你不能來就睡覺嘛六個月最少你要待六個月接下來就是三個月如果你找到缺了有人要你你商調完去就是三個月原機關就應該要放人如果除了原機關有非常特別的少數理由可以再加三那誰認定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5114.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5138.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們都是用人機關來處理這個事情不過現在實務上啦原來的機關就是說我會有這個需求因為它還是要符合那個條件譬如像說重大災害的搶救我們那個條件還是寫得很清楚啦OK沒有模糊空間幾乎都是那個要認定那個東西你還是要具體的事實而且老實說我們那個現在它這是一個處分啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5139.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5147.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
OK 好 謝謝你那第三個你們有一個就是考試分花分花完了之後因為就是理解等於沒人要報名 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5149.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5170.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我用人機關 我要三個需求嘛那我就去報上去 然後就考完試嘛考完試都沒人要來嘛一考上去也沒人要來嘛所以你們就啟動了一個機制就是有公務人員資格的 有任用資格的然後他就可以 這個機關可以直接找這個有資格的就只用非限職人員啦非限職人員要有資格啦要有資格 好那這個時候的這個條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5174.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5201.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就你原來用人機關去跟考選部說我要請你幫我考這些人或者是怎樣的時候有一個條件就是說條件可是你現在在用人的時候用人的時候那個條件會比原來他要分發的那些就是說他的條件更高還是更低會不會在這個地方被動手腳就是說我就是頂級很害怕的條件到我都沒人要來嗎然後到最後我用的時候他是有公務人員這種資格就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5202.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5209.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
但是他 我就用了他的之後呢 我要用我自己的人啊所以你 我叫你考選部幫我扣的時候 我頂得很害怕啊然後你派來的時候 派來我都說不愛啊 會不會這樣我給委員報告 機關報給考選部開去的時候沒有訂任何資格條件 它就說我站好就報 根據這就來了那機關如果用非限制 因為它已經取得公務人員資格嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5227.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5251.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那我們要非限職人至少不是說任何人都可以來譬如說土木工程你至少一定要你的這個職系要土木工程職系你要有符合土木工程任用職系的相關資格才能來機關還可以設定就是說我可能可以教你有沒有工作經驗什麼的由機關來決定一般不會啦因為機關要用人你就是要自己用你不會拿一個石頭砸自己的腳那不一定啦不會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5252.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5261.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他如果有目標人選就不一定我們講是說這個因為是給機關有一個快速用的機關應該有個機制會去處理我是說提醒一下因為醫療搞不好會出現這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5268.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5281.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
漏洞啦 這個漏洞 這個要預防啦要不然以後大家 剛才說我們本地開的缺價的那早就要給什麼人啊 那個人現在就想要來啊他非限職啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5283.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5302.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我了解 你知道我的意思這個是我們會透過我想再跟行政院人事總書好好再談可以透過人事同仁的這個單位來一起來宣導這些事情這個算是一種預先的預防才不會以後大家在後面閒言閒語太多好 以上 謝謝謝謝王委員 非常遵守時間 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5310.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5316.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 那接下來我想請王宏威委員可以幫忙帶我先主持一下會議好 現在我們請翁曉琳委員質詢謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5342.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5358.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
委員長是 秘書長還有部長早剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛也有說我也會很快的競訴就會提出政務人員法 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5359.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5383.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5384.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5399.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方的話是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5402.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5427.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
它的主管全責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長 施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5428.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5446.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一併提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5447.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5467.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
麻煩整併在同一份報告裡面接下來本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5471.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5494.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
有看到這個議題嗎在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然蓄援鳳擠會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5496.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5522.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央及地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5523.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5548.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5550.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5571.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我跟委員報告當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講就是說有人降掉關等對 降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5573.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5601.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
為什麼有人會這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去有些人各式各樣的理由我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5602.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5624.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們現在制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了那個本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5625.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5628.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5642.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5644.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
就这一点来讲我觉得我们会做说不定有些高职等的官员他已经升等了但是他想要去做更轻松更没有压力更没有负担的工作我觉得这个会造成一个工作上的不平等我认为说法律预算中心他们今天提出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5660.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5674.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這樣的一個報告然後我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎 針對這個問題然後去分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5683.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5707.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好 那麼接下來我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5711.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5739.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就用调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5740.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5751.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
就是你的八九值等的員額增加但是你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮減他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5752.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5778.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
的名額不會 這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5779.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5797.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好 那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5806.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5823.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
可能会出现基层人力不足的问题出现短缺那么却又大幅的提高中高阶的人力的问题可能我们文字没有表达来很好但是我们有这个过程都跟行政机关有充分的一个讨论然后做一个通盘性的检讨不会出现委员讲的一些议题 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5824.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5844.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
但是我們隨時還是在Morning個案的一個狀況然後做必要的調整好 那麼最後一個問題就是說最近有一份報導指出台灣的員工過勞指數高達36%那麼這不僅是亞洲之冠而且遠遠高於北美洲 歐洲等等這些國家所以台灣儼然就是一個過勞之島 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5846.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5874.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面它顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%其實這個部分顯現台灣的工作環境的確有過勞的情況那麼因此最近又有民眾在公共政策網路平台上面發起連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5875.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5896.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道情绪部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法未来有没有可能会朝向更缩短工时 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5897.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5919.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個公使其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5920.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5947.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
是啦 不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天都缩短 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5948.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5967.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝翁曉琳委員那接下來就是王宏偉委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5976.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5977.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好 接下來請王宏威委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請那個全旭部長好 請施部長部長早部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5996.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6019.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
在你們的報告裡面有針對我們目前以及針對我們的公務人員的一些修法還有改進也感謝包含考試院的願意配合至少我個人在上個會期我大概主要是兩個一個就是我們公務人員考積法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6020.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6039.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
對 就是把霸凌還有酒駕 性騷等等把它列入我們公務人員考機法那有這個法源最嚴重的我們可以計兩大過於免職那麼可以建構一個更優良的更好的一個公務人員的一個就業環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6040.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6065.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
另外一個就是有關於放寬商調權的問題我們在這邊也謝謝我們全序部有從善如流我覺得這速度也算是快從我們關心到最後的改進所以在這一點就是說你們在之前的你們的報告裡面的一些相關的內容我想就是予以感謝以及肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6066.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6085.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
謝謝委員的支持另外就是要跟部長考試院這邊來討論的像現在我們的財政委員會正在召開聯席會議就是針對特別預算在做審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6086.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6092.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那在這一次呢這個我們的特別條例裡面呢有撥補勞保基金撥補100億那麼在明年度的預算裡面勞保基金的撥補呢也把它提高到就是跟那個114年一樣把它變成1200億也就是說這幾年鑑於勞保基金的這個它的潛在性的負債那麼政府呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6114.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6132.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
都撥補一定的金額到勞保基金裡面那可是另外一部分除了勞保基金之外同樣的我們退府基金在你們報告裡面也有特別提到我們也有潛藏性的一個債務也有高達未來要提撥的也有高達將近三兆之多所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6140.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6147.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
對我們現職的公教人員來說他們也希望退府基金的財務能夠健全這個對他們未來 因為他們很害怕等到有一天他退休的時候我們退府基金會不會因為財務的問題讓他們影響他們的權益所以在這段時間裡面譬如說我們的教師工會教師團體 全教總 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6168.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6181.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
就一直在爭取要讓我們的公教的退伏基金能夠讓政府能夠根據這個精算能夠加速的去做撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6183.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6210.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
可是到目前為止以今年度來講我們政府編列還是194億它是以30年但是我們很多的公教人員或者是團體還是希望能夠依照10年精算的撥補來撥補退府基金我想請問一下明年度我們的預算是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6211.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6236.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
公教加起來我們是根據10我們都是用10年撥補的一個方式去提出概算然後明年應該如果是明年應該是200公務人員282公務人員提出282那因為教育人員是歸教育部編列的所以你公務人員是你公務人員是282 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6242.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6257.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
不是公教退輔基金就是我們的公務人員退輔基金我們編的概算數是282億那教育人員是198億那行政院因為這是我們編的編列數但行政院並沒有合這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6259.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6272.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我就问你预算数法定预算数不是法定预算行政院的预算编列数是126公务人员教育人员是92所以加起来是218218比今年194亿多一点点对 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6278.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6294.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
多的不多嘛其實基本上他還是以20年嘛20年 行政院用20年對 你剛講以10年我剛還想說我幫他們高興一下因為他們在爭取就是希望以10年來撥補嘛對 我理解可是每次我們政府都是以20年來撥補所以我剛講說預算數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6300.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6319.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以218亿仍然其实是依照20年所以这个部分就是相关老保基金我们加速拨补让他的财务能够更健全一点当然老保基金他的前章性的贷物负债也很可观 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6320.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6335.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以在這個部分是不是我要特別講的就是現在的公教人員希望也能夠加速撥補公教的退府基金所以這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6335.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6352.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
可是就是說這個都是如果是依賴公務預算公務預算最後就排起來 排擠去而且說實在尤其我們當我們的國防支出要佔這個GDP比例年年要提高的時候它當然一定相對排擠其他的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6354.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6358.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以我也想請問那時候你們來拜訪我的時候也特別提到就是說我們退府基金因為它是一個長期的它也必須要穩定公務人員 公教人員中是我們國家的資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6371.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6375.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那所以你們會不會有考慮讓他有一個穩定的裁員來做撥補否則每一年像蔡市長喊價一樣是不是都這樣子嗎都像市長這樣我那個公教人員希望你們多補一些多編一些預算可是那政府可能每一次就是還是說其實我很希望多撥補最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6395.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6397.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
仍然不能如願所以可不可能從長期來看又找一個長期的穩定的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6403.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6429.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
委員報告其實我們這個國家碰到這個所有的長期的一個基金不是只有退伏基金老保也是一樣的一個概念那如果說整個社會有共識說我們去弄一個什麼樣長期穩定的來源來同時讓這兩個基金可以永續我想任何這作為基金的主管機關來講應該是都樂見其成但是我覺得這不會是只有退伏基金的問題因為我們還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6430.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6445.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以你也知道如果只是針對退府基金的話那勞保基金那廣大的勞工朋友說那為什麼只有長期來源只撥補給退府基金呢對不對我勞保基金我也要你的意思是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6447.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6466.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們現在的所謂潛藏負債其實是勞保是比公保還比退補金還大我只是在講是說這是一個很長遠的議題所以如果社會有共識同時有一個如果真的要找到一個比較是穩定的裁員那我覺得同時考慮這個事情一定不是壞事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6467.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6491.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那另外我請教一下在你們的報告裡面有特別提到到目前為止就是整個的收益率整個的收益率已經是超過6000多億是6600多億那請問一下這6000多億裡面不包括年改年金改革裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6492.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6497.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
就是挹注回來這個退伏基金的錢應該大概兩千億嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6498.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6527.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
包括我們就是預注回來的錢一起去投資那我們現在大概已經預注了2500多億了2500多億所以我的意思說你說到今年8月底退福基金累計收益是6681億然後這6681億包不包括那2500億這個應該是指來了以後一起去投資的我們來了一個在大水庫裡面去投資這樣一個累計的一個收益 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6529.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6547.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以包括嘛包括那2500億它已經進來這個我們基金裡面了所以就是運用規模因為運用規模像一兆嘛所以那2500億是在那一兆裡面嗎對包括在裡面好那我請問一下到8月底為止你們的收益率是4.53%4.53%請問部長你滿意這個收益率嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6554.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6573.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我想這是非常高度專業的這個我們一直在強調基金要看長期的一個投資就像我們最近5年大概有9點多平均9點多的一個收益率今年因為有一些狀況會稍微上上下下具體的事情這是由我們管理局是不是我請局長來做說明好 請局長請問一下這4.5升你們滿意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6578.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6602.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
報告委員這是從基金成立以來的平均的收益率那在近10年跟5年跟3年的收益率不是啦 我就跟你講今年的嘛4.53是今年的嘛對 到今年8月還有4.53你當局長到現在為止你基本的數字你要掌握啊因為大家就認為你這4.53當然是受利於在今年的股市還不錯嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6603.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6633.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
是因為今年的股市還不錯我知道你們委外的收益率還不錯可是你們自己自行操作的其實今天還發生虧損我也不知道我這到時候還要了解我不曉得為什麼還會發生虧損你們主要是委外的部分因為今年大盤到現在為止九月份你們應該還是收益更好一點九月份因為那個股市漲得更多所以你們當然是跟著股市這個股市漲你們當然就是那個收益比較好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6633.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6657.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
但是外界还是会认为你们跟大盘的表现还是差太多了你们跟大盘的表现还是差太多所以我特别要讲就是说因为我们退府基金其实老保基金也是如此长期以来都会为外界诟病就是为什么我们的整体的收益率其实是偏低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6658.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6678.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
當然你們每次來比較都是你們跟台銀台銀的長期存款我們比台銀的長期存款多這個不要比了啦這個就不要比不然你就直接去存台銀就好了幹嘛操作什麼呢有什麼好操作還要去花這些手續費所以在怎麼樣去精進你們的投資收益非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6679.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6698.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
另外從今年開始你們也開始開放讓大家用自己的專戶去做投資因為你們這邊的資料不夠清楚我可能到時候也會了解一下怎麼讓我們公務人員 公教人員在他的整個退休金的大水池裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6700.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6724.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
讓他財務是健全的然後他的收益是穩健的不只穩健 而且這個收益也要一定要達到一定的水準你們退服基金 績效越好公教人員越安心嘛 是不是這樣所以局長要掌握這個數字我怎麼問一問 4.5%明明是今年度的啊你又一直在跟我講什麼全部平均的 好不好加油啦 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6728.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6730.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那接下來請林建啟委員謝謝我們主席翁昭偉我先請那個考選部我們劉部長請劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6751.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6775.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
委員長部長好過去國考是穩定的象徵本期現在看到公務人員的公務人才的流失跟報考的意願低迷根據考選部的統計2023年有16個類科的報考數少於需要錄取的人數甚至有4個類科沒有人報考高普考錄取不足的人數總人數達268人 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6782.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6804.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那錄取不足的現象尤其集中在技術類科包含建築、土木、機械、水力、電力工程等那這都是國家在建設上很重要在公共安全的關鍵崗位那麼政府如果缺乏技術人才那勢必會影響基層的執行力跟公共服務的品質那本席在這個部分尤其是關注原住民族特考 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6806.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6820.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個現象非常的嚴重像原住民特考的三等土木工程要用二十六人卻只有十個人報考四等的機械工程更出現了零報考的情況顯示這個制度雖然有保障名額但是卻失去 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6821.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6842.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
缺乏實質跟有效的一個誘因那所以原住民特考本來原意是要讓族人進入公部門回饋原鄉但是現在卻整個有點空泛掉了所以在立法院的這個研究報告裡面也已經指出希望考選部能夠積極跟相關部會來會商研商提高類科 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6844.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6872.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
類科考選的一個效能那特別是針對我們東部地區的土木人才跟原鄉的STEM相關科系的職缺應該要設計相當的誘因跟培育的基地那例如這個留任的家籍還有專業家籍讓人才願意到原鄉也願意留在原鄉但是我相信這整個體系可能有很大的一個問題那本席在去年也針對有關於STEM人才的培育提出一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6873.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6900.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那麼本席這邊有幾個問題想跟您請教那第一個部分是針對原住民族特考長期報考人數的一個下滑那考選部對原因的一個了解那對策的一個眼影是如何那另外考選部是不是有跟原民會教育部跟工程會相關的部會來協調建立原鄉與偏鄉人才培育的基地讓從基層一直到大學技職教育培養土木水利的專業基層能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6902.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6930.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
甚至還有農林相關的類科第三個部分是對於錄取不足的技職類科考選部是不是可以檢討命題的內容 錄取的門檻來強化教育體系 專業體系的一個連結如果國家有急需工程的技術人力卻因為考題偏難或者是不服實務也沒有辦法在原鄉服務導致沒有人錄取那是不是也有點浪費 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6930.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6958.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那本席知道部長你也曾經擔任過教育部次長那是不是在這個部分有一些想法可以來執行呢給予一些建議好嗎是 跟委員報告那這也是我們考選部非常在意的一個議題那就如委員所說其實那一個特別是土木工程其實包含土木 電力然後其實也還有經濟跟財稅對 還有農林等等的考的不足額 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6959.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6977.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
大概這幾個類客就佔了快九成那這的確是一個必須去因應的問題那我們有跟那個原民會跟教育部已經有跟他們聯繫那有開會討論那最主要是我們根據我們那個原住民族的教育法那是必須要奠定一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6978.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7003.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
每五年要一個教育發展計畫那目前下一年度的教育發展計畫正在訂定中那我們希望能夠透過教育部跟那個園民會把培育園民的公務人才也要列為園民的這個教育這邊一個非常重要的要投資跟發展那尤其是公務體系裡面那幾個經常在缺的類科對園鄉也是非常重要的特別是技術類科是的 就如委員所說 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7005.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7009.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那特別是我們也有注意到如果我們說在譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7010.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7036.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們在特考的確土木工程是個普遍嚴重的問題但是特別在原鄉部落這個問題又特別嚴重我們其實我們有注意到在整個東部其實非常缺乏培育土木工程人才的基地因為東部是原鄉一個很重要的基地所以這個部分如果是那麼匱乏的話我想對東部的長期發展也是不太健康的是的 那就如委員所說 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7037.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7060.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
但是在這些技術類可能它的基本就是委員所說的還是STAND人才所以我們會希望說是不是我們可以透過教育端還有跟我們原民會來合作可以透過我們在原民的教育體系最好是可以從包含國民教育的階段就開始來把著原民的STAND人才可以成為以後來進入這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7064.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7067.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
體系的一個生力軍那當然是如果更好的話是整個東部 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7068.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7094.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
也可以在高等教育出現培育這些技術類科的人才基地所以這個部分是不是可以請你們積極的來跟各部會甚至可以請政委這邊來召開協調相關的這個協調的人才培育的一個長期的計畫要不然考試院是最尾端那你們縱使開出的這些名額結果在前端都已經很匱乏的話可能考選部這邊也是有一些困難吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7095.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7113.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
是 就如那個委員所說那其實我們目前我們卡士願的億萬委員也非常重視這個議題那我們有透過我們億萬委員然後跟我們教育部那教育部跟原民會其實也很支持我們的構想那我們希望盡快讓這一個可以在明年的原民的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7114.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7132.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
接下來五年的那個原住民主教育發展計畫裡面列為一個正式的對 因為這個部分本席也非常關心過去在其他委員會針對STEM原名STEM的這個人才的培育已經也提出很多次的這個質詢那我們希望在整個體系能夠連動就像你剛才也講到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7132.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7152.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
基礎的叫國教的這個部分其實也要能夠由大學這邊來一起拉抬那這樣在你們的這個考試類科裡面才不會常常出現不足額就算有的人才呢那回到原鄉的這個比例也不太高所以就線型的制度是不是可以先考量一下這個考題命題的這個內容的監測程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7153.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7168.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
針對原鄉的一個特考的這個部分那另外長期來講考試院可以更積極的來跟相關部會針對人才把這個一系列都補足那我們就不會有開出這樣子的缺額可是卻也沒有人來考的一個狀況好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7169.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7185.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那這個部分也請這個考選部那積極的列出一個時程那我們這樣子才比較有效度的能夠將原命的人才來補齊那很重要的就公務體系是國家運轉的一個機制那但是如果考不到又補不上 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7185.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7203.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
留不住那整個體系就會慢慢失能所以請部長盡快的來召開這樣一個協調會議至少能夠讓我們原鄉的青年看到新的一個希望好 謝謝部長接下來我很快的跟秘書長這邊我要提醒一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7205.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7227.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那個我們知道在國家考試電子證書部長您請回接下來我就針對這個考試電子證書服務推廣的這個成效的問題來跟您提出一些建議我們根據報告指出考選部開辦的這個國家考試及格證書服務網以來整個使用率有點偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7228.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7234.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以在2023年的報告裡面指出到112年8月底下載電子證書的總次數只有27310次相較於你們核發的32267張證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7242.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7260.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
平均每一張沒有到一次的下載而線上申辦的也只有24.67%也就是說四分之三的考生也是仍然選擇紙本申辦我相信你們這樣子一個利益良好可是在執行上是不是有一些沒有達到的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7261.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7279.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
因為在113年8月底下載的次數達到6萬多次但是核發的7萬多張證書相比還是沒有達到1比1的水準所以連續兩年大概都沒有辦法達到1比1所以這個電子證書的推動也是你們轉型的業務很重要的其中之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7280.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7303.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們能夠讓節能省碳成為一個未來的方向但是連兩年這樣推廣的不足的情況下是不是在制度設計跟使用者的體驗上有一些差異所以有三個問題就是說考試院是不是能夠檢視操作流程直覺性或介面的友善度這常常是大家公佈你們裡面一個普遍的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7305.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7327.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
但是有許多機關企業也是仍然要求資本的驗證是不是這中間讓考生會覺得電子版不實用第二個部分你們現在有沒有計畫如何提升普及率最後是考試院是不是要積極的宣導電子證書的法律效力這個數位轉型也才能夠落實秘書長這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7328.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7347.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我簡單跟委員說明委員您剛剛所有的建議我們前面都有做我有一個誤解我可能要跟您說明我們的制度是這樣你一定要繳電子證書的錢100塊錢的成本然後它一定會有電子證書但是如果你需要紙本證書你就額外申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7348.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7367.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們一直在試圖降低就是宣導說大家用電子證書就好不一定要來申請資本因為資本成本也貴500元可是這中間可能是這個企業跟公部門他們能夠接受的比例比較低所以我們這個都有在宣導告訴大家說你只要有電子而且電子證書也方便驗證有些人只能為了留紀念可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7368.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7381.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
基於各種原因他想要覺得考上了很不容易要留一個紙本他不在乎500塊但是我跟您報告現在電子證書就是說你考上了你一定拿到電子證書可是有額外申請紙本證書的比例都在20%以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7383.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7398.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
就是說大家對於電子證書的使用普遍率不高第一個是這樣那您講到說為什麼它沒有每一個人都下載因為它不一定需要下載的時候它不會立刻下載我發出去之後它也許真的需要的時候它才會去下載 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7399.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7422.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
第二個是說他可能有申請資本證書的人他也不會去下載所以這個部分我覺得是看使用者個人的習慣但是我們的成效是展現在說現在所有考生及格者 入取者有申請資本證書的都已經不到20%所以已經一路這樣下降我們觀察今年的趨勢還有稍微降得更低 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7423.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7444.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以你們是從大家申請紙本的這個申請率來看待但是您剛才提到一點也就表示八成以上的人都接受只有電子證書了所以其中有一點就是說他如果現在沒有需要他就不會去下載那你們是不是可以從這個下載率看他的一個普遍性我想應該你們可以從這樣一個因素裡面去做一些調查有的時候他不需要下載 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7444.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7467.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
譬如說我以護理師考試來講護理師考試我們入局者其實他們直接發到衛福部去衛福部給他們職業證書他有了職業證書其實他不用有考試及格證書所以他不用自己去給予這個證書的證明嗎對 他也不需要自己拿去那邊申請他的職業證照他直接從衛福部這邊去檢視就好了對 我們會直接跟衛福部做因為我們希望他迅速拿到證照可以直接去 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7467.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7493.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那你們是不是可以針對本席所講的這樣一個我們做一個完整的說明對 針對這個部分然後還有針對你們去這個研考的因素中間的一個差距那這個本席要知道這個差距沒有問題好嗎好的 謝謝謝謝林慶琴委員的發言那麼也請移民署長這邊之後提供報告給林委員 謝謝接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7500.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7511.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
謝謝主席有請我們考試院劉秘書長好 請劉秘書長還有考選部劉部長請劉部長權序部我們施部長好 請委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7517.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7544.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
民務長還有兩位部長我想我延續剛剛有委員提到的問題再來追問你像我們這一次的預算中心有提到這個是公務人員高資低用這個人數我看剛剛召委他也很關心但是這個預算中心這種寫法會產生很大的一個誤解有時候會造成說我領比較高的薪水然後去降調這好像有點偷懶 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7546.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7574.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這個我們在鄉下其實我們碰到很多很多人是因為我在職場上沒有這樣的一個職缺或者說我就很想回到我自己的故鄉有的人夫妻相隔兩地其實很重要的一個觀念這個反而去降調人在我所碰到的一個服務案件的案例裡面常常都是對職場上是最負責任的人對制度負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7576.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7596.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我要到其他的地方去我只好降掉這個對制度就是負責他也對他的家庭負責我要照顧我的父母親我要照顧我的家庭因素很多我反而會覺得說升官 升到最高的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7597.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7616.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
官場未必就只有升官你專業能力被肯定當然是升官可是很多性盡之徒都升官他未必是有責任的而這是降調的人他是更有責任默默在貢獻出他的一個專業所以我反而會覺得說這個預算中心這種寫法這個只是一語之鑑那但是本身有個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7619.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7636.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這預算中心點出這樣一個問題那是不是我們也應該去檢討目前降調制度它的一個考慮去設置一個制度說如何去當作植物的一個轉換 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7637.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7657.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
或者說彈性配置的一個制度出來讓這個降調的人他變成說他又不失去他的專業還有對整個他職務上這樣的一個熱忱為這個職場來做出貢獻我不曉得三位的看法是怎麼樣謝謝委員對這個議題的關心特別您來自南台灣我理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7665.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7679.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我常常碰到啊所以我剛剛有回答說這個報告本身可能寫事實但是有很多複雜的原因啦所以對於降調的人本身很多降調會減錢耶有的就沒有主管家籍啦或者說沒有專業家籍啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7684.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7702.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
每個個案不一樣我應該這樣講可能在不同地區去做降調或者你降調到學校或降調到行政機關這樣都是沒有人的選擇啦應該這樣講啦所以啦我的意思是說預算中心講也不是全部都不對那翁委員關心的也不是不對但只是說我們要怎麼樣來設計出一個制度讓說 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7707.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7714.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我就有這樣的一個專長可是呢 我又沒有這樣的一個職缺我又必須要去降調這個就可惜了你有沒有感覺說我們公務體系裡面應該有一個制度我們是有一個事求人人求事的公開找人的制度都會上網啦是就在 那是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7728.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7756.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
蘇俊榮任市長他們那個Apple的一個事求人人求事其實很多公務人員要找缺他都一定要公告他就去那邊看但重點是現在的結果就是導出預算中心給你點出有這麼多人去降調還是要想辦法解決好不好好 我們會再繼續來是的 好好研議看看那我想另外一個問題要請教就是說韓國現在一個國營的資料中心期會 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7757.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7780.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那結果呢這個造成19萬名公務人員的資料全數就遺失這顯示這其實就是說它這整個數位的基礎建設缺乏備援跟災難的復原的一個機制這場火裡面它不是只有燒掉伺服器燒出了制度上的漏洞我看它這次647個系統裡面說只有20倍的有災難備援的一個計畫這個其實不是只有韓國的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7788.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7794.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這個是全世界政府的一個警訊所以我要請教我們考試院的說我們的資通的韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7796.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7809.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們有沒有準備好事我們考試院跟全序部還有考選部我們現在在推動全面的一個數位化這個方向我相信大家都知道很正確但是我們這個系統我們有沒有安全這也就是說我們這些國家級的一個系統裡面有沒有定期的一個災難的一個復原的一個演練那備援系統的復原 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7820.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7837.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
它的覆蓋率到底會是多少 會不會像韓國那樣 要收了 要收了之後要六七八的 還要存二十幾個 變成它覆蓋率就這麼的少那意思就是說 世界上韓國這樣 整個的系統有備援其他好像都裸奔一樣 請具體回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7840.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7858.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
考選部是那個治安A級單位意思是我們必須每年接受是全國最高等級的檢視基本上我所說的大概是幾個原則1D存放 1D備援所以覆蓋率是百分之百基本上我們的關鍵核心資料一定必須做到1D存放跟1D備援 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7860.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7885.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
異地就是一定要在不同的地方我在當律師的時候 我常常跟當事人大家想一想 有天不順的就是說監獄裡面關那麼多人訴訟階段有那麼多人那麼多犯罪的嫌疑人那有一天 不管是法務部或司法院資料中心全部被牽掉了資料都收掉了之後我看你裡面的犯人要怎麼樣要被告也要怎麼樣全部大家都不擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7887.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7891.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我曾經去想過這樣的一個問題啦那所以其實就是一個備援的制度過去就資本嘛你現在都數位化嘛那所以部長你的想法是說現在全部我們的覆蓋率百分之百對 一定要至少關鍵核心之下一定要異地存放跟異地備援 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7904.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7928.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那這個做了就不錯了年度要演練所以沒有問題就對了那很好啊那我接下來要請教一個問題就是說我們現在談說電腦化的一個測試考選部你在115年度全區部部長請回115年度要擴大辦理新增的驗光師 驗光生還有第三次護理師還有司法官跟律師的第二次 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7929.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7954.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個方向都對代表國家邁向一個數位的一個時代但是我要請問的就是說這些考區裡面我們有沒有去做過壓力測試或模擬演練如果發生技術故障有沒有明確應變的SOP來 請博長你回跟委員報告有但是所以我們現在其實最主要就是要處理私立二因為私立二是深論題而且它是基本上是競爭性的考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7955.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7980.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以你們全部都有沒有 私立二環最重要要處理的那個它的演練說要避免有電力異常所以我們會在私立二環我們會有核心市場我們核心市場考試的時候會全部被發電機我都沒什麼想法我可以請委員到時候來看我現在沒什麼想法你知道嗎你要想我們在建立國家電腦的市場裡面你現在金門也有那 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7982.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7997.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我看從台北考區 桃園 新竹 台中 台南 高雄 屏東 花蓮金門也都有啦我要請教就是說金門在那裡離島嘛 不要讓人家奔波嘛台東為什麼沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7998.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8019.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
台東也兩個里島主要是他的學校他缺乏可以讓我們設置這個市場的學校所以我們的要求就是說你必須要在最好是在同一個資訊大樓有足夠的電腦那目前台中比較缺乏這樣的學校我覺得這樣就不對了我覺得這樣就不對了考卷部我們也去補助了很多大學敢設置這些電腦市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8021.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8045.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
台東也有台東大學這樣我覺得怎麼好像是你缺了台東這個就不太對你現在拿了200台電腦去那個是要建置整個行動化電腦市場其實那規格老實說比一般的規格更高更安全我的意思就是說缺台東我就覺得不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8047.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8068.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
因為他也有蘭嶼他也有列島也有這些離島的考生他必須要去應試那你這一次你說電腦市場裡面你給台東考區你給他200台電腦不是給他是我們直接去那裡設一個行動你設了 你如果要停電你如果斷線筆電最不怕停電筆電是這樣 對我們每一個筆電會配兩到三個電源你如果斷線 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8073.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8078.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
筆電當然他未必是要插電啦電腦有膠當然就可以啦但是問題我的意思是萬一斷線又一設備出問題那你怎麼辦我要說的就是說他畢竟跟國家電腦市場來做比較的話對考生權益來講的話他還是不夠周延啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8093.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8113.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
跟委員報告我們的筆電的行動一定是完全按照我們現在的所有的這個規格但是如果說能夠有學校來提供固定位置當然更好所以如果說在這一點的話就是說有辦法能夠有學校來出現來合格的一個學校那我們非常樂觀其成 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8115.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8127.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
不要只說樂觀其成啦我是認為說這個講法都會覺得說好像讓台東去自生自滅啦你要到大學裡面如果有那個比較好的設備啊我要考選部加我當然樂觀其成這樣怎麼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8129.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8143.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
以國家電腦市場來講的話 針對全國各地的考生他權益站在考選部的立場 你要一併去跟他做保障你國家要數位化 要數位化 台東要看你喔 看你自己喔你自己如果更進步 台北的設備如果更好 考選部我在這裡 樂觀其成喔好 弄一個 我覺得這個態度不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8154.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8175.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
每一個大學來電腦 他們有夠那個設備的時候你們就會去補助他設置這個國家電腦市場所以欠台東我會覺得偏鄉的地方用這種臨時的方案這樣子硬撐對整個公職或者說專業認證的一些考試對這些考生來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8179.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8207.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
更不好的就是說你國家電腦的一個市場這個是整個數位國家的一個基本建設我認為那是一個投資建設的話我們在那邊講智能政府智能政府阿嘎基全台灣大家都智能電都政府台東不用變智能的一個政府要智能的政府我看我們就從智慧考試開始好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8209.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8212.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我簡單補充一下第一個就是說我們對電腦市場的設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8217.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8242.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
考試院的資源很有限他可以投資基本的設備但是他還需要學校本身有足夠的電腦教室現在在台中用行動的方式來處理其實也是彌補當地資源的不足這是考選部的努力委員希望能夠有一個穩定的比如說在那邊設置一個就是固定的電腦市場的話看怎麼樣有爭取到更多的資源我們一起來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8243.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8261.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
秘書長 我的概念不只這樣不只是說那個地方的設備把它弄好是我們政府的政策你要推數位化的話偏鄉你就不能把它給漏掉你要智能政府 你要數位化你說靠一下 缺了一腳 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8262.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8274.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這樣不好啦對制度的一個投資這不是浪費啦更何況這是政府在對我們一直在談數位的一個轉型結果你讓偏鄉的考生沒有辦法站在同一條起跑線上我認為這個政府要趕快去做一個改善好不好把他當成重要的事情啦只欠一支那錢不會花多少啦秘書長 保證你們想辦法立法院那我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8289.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8316.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這附近兩個省委都有夠閒聊的 都挺你啦我跟翁省委都挺你 台東緊衝一下 好不好可以嗎這個我們再去跟您報告和緊衝衝 數位政府偏鄉的地方沒有跟上這個就是假的那是國家對制度的一個投資我們把這個整個數位政府高唱露營結果說那個地方台東人跟你講說你唬爛 我這邊又沒有不好 好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8318.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8331.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
謝謝莊委員我也非常支持莊委員的建議我想應該要把所謂數位普及數位化的程度偏鄉跟都市都一定的拉起所以也希望考學部考試院這裡能夠努力加把勁接下來請審判會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8352.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8357.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
主席我們先請秘書長那我是不是也請這個保訓會的蔡主委委員長秘書長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8366.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8393.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個我等一下這個有關的相關問題一些原則性的部分請秘書長回答那一些細節執行的部分可能請保全會主委這邊來答覆這個關於我們今天業務報告在第二頁的時候提到我這邊所列出來了有關於這個因為我們今年在今年的這個6月24號本院通過這個公務人員保障法的這個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8394.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8417.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那公布之後預計在明年的1月9號部分條文在明年1月9號開始實施了那也有半年的時間但是這個根據這個修法這個6月的修法這個裡面的第19條的第一項的授權我們有關這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8419.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8439.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個公務人員的這個安全衛生防護辦法公會辦法我們事實上是在緊接著我們在6月今年的6月29號就已經做修正那7月1號就開始實施了對不對那這個我看了你們的這些書面報告還有相關的這些新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8446.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8470.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
以及相關的這些修法說明這個部分我想這個公衛辦法確實是在公務人員反霸凌的部分霸凌的防治一個非常重要的法令也是重要的機制這個部分那時候我們在修法的時候本院也通過了許多決議跟附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8472.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8492.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我就一一檢視看我們這個當時的這些附帶決議做的其實我們考試院這邊其實我看是基本上該做的是做的相當的完備完備但是因為畢竟新法上路這部分我有一些部分要來跟這個我們考試院來這邊來了解一下我們這次這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8496.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8516.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
安慰辦法這個有關修法的部分說名稱也改了應該是按照依照19條的文字這公務人員保障法19條文字所以我們加上這個執行職務安全的部這幾個字這符合這個法令的授權大概有幾個比較重要的機制其中一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8518.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8534.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
一個就是必須要召開這個安全衛生諮詢會這是一個另外一個這個有關申訴機制的建立最重要的一個新建的我一個有關落實足跡監督檢查跟通報制度這部分過去沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8535.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8564.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
也就是說有關於這些公務人員安全衛生防護的部分必須要足及定期專案安全抽檢對不對這部分是新的因為我們這個已經7月1號就已經開始實施其他我們這個是公務人保障法上面授權的一個執法這個執法之下安危辦法本身它又必須要配合許多配套的這些法規必須要修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8565.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8590.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那我看你們這邊你們的這個保訓會的這些業務報告裡面也說明的蠻清楚一些相關的這些執法配套措施你們大概也都做了修正包括這個健康檢查實施要點這些這個職場霸凌的防治處理原則包括這個安全衛生設施管理要點包括這個安全衛生防護抽查作業實施要點等等這些相關執法你們都已經做修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8592.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8604.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我現在要了解這個部分看是秘書長回答或是保訓會主委來回答因為我們按照這個我們現在所修訂的這個安慰辦法裡面的第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8605.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8627.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
有規定第四條規定的是有關於這個這個安全衛生諮詢會的設置你們用的這個這個文字是主管機關得聘請也就得設置諮詢會諮詢會是得設置啦要不要設置不曉得那第五條的部分是這個安全衛生防護委員會這個是應設立每個機關都應該設立 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8631.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8660.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那這個從7月1號到現在7月1號實施到現在已經10月今天已經10月9號了嘛今天10月9號了那實施到現在現行的這個中央部會跟地方政府機關是不是都已經按照這個規定成立了這個衛生防護委員會這部分能不能說明一下我們有沒有這個盤點我們有沒有去看目前所有的中央跟地方的這些相關機關是不是都已經設立了這個防護委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8663.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8683.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
跟委員報告謝謝委員的這個之前的支持跟關心那首先就是說有關於各主管機關是不是已經設立的這個諮詢委員會因為就是誠如委員講我們在法律上是得但是我們有通函是希望而且是強烈的建議各主管機關應該設我先問防護委員會這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8684.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8698.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
防務委員會是應設立的應設立的現在目前中央機關跟地方機關是不是全部都已經設立了跟委員報告目前大部分機關有設立然後我們在9月23號已經發了一個全國性的通函請各機關在這個月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8701.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8709.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
之前要把我們所列出來的數十項有關安慰對 數十項數十項的這個check list就是說該做的事項都要來告訴我們到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8716.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8735.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
已完成跟未完成那未完成的原因是什么我现在只问设立你们有没有去掌握追踪中央跟地方机关现在是不是都已经依照安慰办法第五条都已经设置了法务委员会我们有大部分都设立了但是更具体的有没有设立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8736.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8756.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個我們要在10月31號的時候可以把統計的數字具體的提供給委員這部分我是覺得你們積極一點你們現在已經7月1號實施到現在10月了又不是說一個月的時間而已現在到底全國而且這個是依照你們安慰辦法修訂的它應該要設立安慰防護委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8761.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8786.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那到現在到底有哪一些機關還沒有設立這個你們應該掌握吧你們是主管機關呢是 那謝謝委員提醒那我們今天會後呢會再發一次的通函希望他們能夠在更早就在10月31號以前就把這個數字都通通回填給我們他到底是不是已經成立了有沒有開過會這個我們保健委員會都應該要掌握是 有 目前有在追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8789.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8815.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這個你們這個要長期你不是說發函請他們回函你們應該要去了解這個不難嘛這不難 這全國各機關你們就去了解他到底是不是已經依照第五條先了解他到底設置了沒有 設立了沒有那你這個因設立的你都還沒有全部掌握那諮詢會你們可能這邊手上現在也沒有資料吧到底有哪些機關成立了這個安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8817.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8833.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個安全及衛生的諮詢會這個德設立的諮詢會你們到底有多少機關成立的這個我們因為它是德但是我們有強烈的建議應該要設那這個是不是請容我們會後跟提供這個具體的數字給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8836.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8847.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
你們事實上現在連設立的還是沒有設立你們也不清楚所以他的這些委員到底是誰這些各個機關的委員是誰你們現在也應該手上也沒有資料是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8849.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8868.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
各機關的防護委員會它組成的是哪些委員內部的我們可能可以掌握但是它外部的部分這是各機關它自己的決定權我知道是他們決定權我只是說你們到底知不知道誰是委員哪一個機關的委員會的委員你們手上有沒有名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8870.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8891.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
跟委員報告因為全國的機關數非常多這個目前我們手上沒有這個各機關的組成委員到底是哪些人我是認為你們應該要掌握包括每一個機關它所成立的這個安全防護委員會的這些委員到底是誰他們到底聘請哪些人做委員不管是內部的外部的我覺得你們都應該至少要有一份名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8892.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8911.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好 謝謝委員提醒那我們在之後回去會在這個檢核表上面請各機關盡可能的提供給我們 謝謝因為你們也提到你們這個因為這個新制安全及衛生防護的新制上路所以你們積極辦理宣導是你們說你們從6月跟7月之間在北中南地區總共辦了6場 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8912.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8924.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
六個場次的大型宣導是參加人數有1118人是所以我現在要問的問題你可能應該沒有辦法回答這1118個人裡面有多少人他實際上是各機關的安全防護委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8926.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8947.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
跟委員報告我們這1118人主要在這一波裡面呢都是屬於各機關呢他要承辦這個安全衛生跟職場霸凌的這個案件的主要承辦人但是對但是他們一定都是這個委員之一但是呢我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8948.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8970.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這個明年已經要啟動就是所有各機關的安全及衛生防護委員會的每一個委員都要來參訊而且必須要經過測試及格這樣子啦 這個部分這樣問起來你們現在事實上都還沒有掌握啦還沒有全盤的掌握啦那畢竟是新法啦不過我希望你們在一個月內就全國各機關這個案有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8973.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8978.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個安慰防護委員會他的成員跟他參加這個防護的這些職場霸凌防治訓練的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8980.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9004.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
提出一個書面報告可以嗎在一個月內說明他還有包括這些授訊包括他的授訊的比例他的期程他後續的這些追蹤機制我希望你們提出一個書面報告好 謝謝委員再來你們也應該要這個書面報告裡面請你們掌握你們還沒有設置的機關有哪一些機關到現在10月了還沒有設置這個安慰防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9005.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9028.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
委員會還沒有成立的有哪一些機關還沒有完成設立如果說到現在我假設從7月1號實施到現在這過程中因為這個機關沒有設立安全防護委員會所以如果發生職場霸凌在這段期間發生職場霸凌他必須要向哪一個單位負責有哪一個單位負責受理跟調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9028.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9053.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
跟我們報告這段時間呢過渡時期他因為7月1號以後呢其實已經沒有在所謂的他可以過渡的所以基本上只要他有發生這樣子的事件他一定就要設立了因為他要先設立才能夠決定受理我剛問你你也不知道哪些機關現在目前機關設立了沒有萬一我現在在我的職場就發生霸凌了結果我的機關還沒有成立這個防護委員會那我怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9057.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9079.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
當發生這樣子的案子的時候機關就一定要立即成立其實按照公務人員保障法第19條之二的第三項跟第四項就是你們保訓會主管如果現在這個機關還沒有成立這個防護委員會我就直接向你們保訓會來提出你們保訓會就必須要接受這個負責這個受理跟調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9082.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9103.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
是所以你們如果沒有掌握各個機關到底現在多少機關已經設立安慰防護委員會的話你就會遇到這個狀況這部分請你們這個在一個月內提書面報告給我啦好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們就請烏思瑤委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9114.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9116.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
請劉秘書長委員長秘書長早 大家辛苦了今天我的質詢是新會期的第一次那也剛好是這個時間點我要給出我的兩個肯定跟一個呼籲肯定我們的心理架要上路了就在明天也肯定我們的永續報告書終於出爐了好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9139.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9154.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
首先新理假這個在立法院我真的是率先倡議到現在教育先行公務機關來接力教育部呢高中職全上路大學現在從兩個學校我一開始倡議到現在一百二十七個學校都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9154.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9184.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以呢學校有了關心學生的心理健康公務機關是第二個接力的我質詢了人事處長也四次質詢考試院相關的包括師部長也四次加起來終於看到一個好的結果所以說我要提醒喔明天正式上路嘛對不對秘書長是明天那一個價別的反應不只是給需要的同仁一個滿足他的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9184.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9213.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
更重要的是藉由這個價別讓我們所有的公務體系的同仁能夠去關懷彼此關照到誰也許在面臨的身心重大的壓力這些執行我當然會跟人事總署分享但是我想你們也是掌管公務同仁所有的相關事項我給予肯定但是不要忘了他不是只多一個價他有他背後來建構賴清德總統健康台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9214.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9230.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
尤其Mental Health的這個部分考試員有什麼新的想法嗎其實我想各機關因為都有員工協助的措施這個部分應該持續來強化因為心理健康這個我想大家越來越重視越來越了解這個事情的存在其實這個價別的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9231.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9250.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
就可以讓我們有一個多的工具去觀察誰請了這個假他也許正面臨著他心理健康的suffer需要我們出手來相助我肯定你們感謝你們明天就要上路這是所有公務機關的好消息下一個呢我手上拿的是考試院終於也有永續報告書 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9252.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9275.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個行政院永續會要求所有的二級機關地方政府都要有那我是非常關心永續政策所以我過去在教育文化委員會我發現中研院居然沒有後來中研院也加入了我轉到司法法治委員會我發現總統府也沒有總統府現在也加入那我謝謝考試院不再缺一角正式加入謝謝你們你有看這個報告書嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9278.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9304.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
有裡面你們在有18項工作要對應於聯合國教科文組織的17個發展指標很好我也會定期來管考下一頁那除了考試員有永續報告之外我們的國家基金的主管機關也要有我也在質詢台上勞動基金 郵儲基金都有永續報告書你們的退伏基金有了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9307.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9332.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
應該是上上禮拜我才看到那個初稿已經交給我了好 我跟你報告就在今天就在今天所以今天交委安排這個時間非常好來質詢你們我也就是肯定你們就在今天退府基金的永續報告書今天出爐我早上要去要你們的同仁說因為很厚一本很用心我想要提供給我們所有司法法治委員會關心的委員好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9333.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9360.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那退伏基金的永續報告書內涵很重要的是什麼下一頁就是我們的投資的碳足跡的這個部分要列進去我當初揭露的四大基金的投資碳足跡居然退伏基金是最高的換言之有一個永續報告書就可以透過公開揭露去檢視你們的投資在符合時代永續潮流的產業這個會watch嗎對不對我們會努力好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9361.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9380.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那這也是國際的趨勢我就不贅述好 下一頁所以說再次感謝今天出爐以後我也會follow也希望我們的退府基金真的是用在正確的投資之外產生必要的效益之外要讓它永續就你們的永續報告書裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9382.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9409.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
的第十七項工作 對不起 第十二項工作強化公務人員退府基金及儲金運用的收益要打造長期穩健及永續經營的年金退休的機制這就是對應於聯合國的指標第十項的減少不平等以及要打造一個和平正義的社會制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9410.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9436.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以在做基金永續照顧退休的穩健是世界的趨勢但是呢下一頁我很遺憾這個會期我們的年改已經有幾個法案即將可能快速的要被討論我希望充分討論而不是強行碾壓我們看看國民黨的朱立倫主席他說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9437.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9463.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
現在有通膨啊生活的需求越來越高啊所以呢再砍年金是不公平的要確保維持退休人員的基本生活所需朱立倫說的他說的成不成立我們現在政策有沒有做到我們等一下可以來討論傅昆齊總召他在開議日說的國民黨第一個優先法案就是公教反年改的法案我真的覺得我們多多朝野合作多多對話不要為快而快 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9466.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9486.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們看到在場是羅志強委員也是我們司法法治委員會他現在參選國民黨黨主席他把停侃年金的所得替代率成為他競選黨主席的政見我是覺得年金永續是民生議題不要有政黨的政治化 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9487.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9516.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
當然我們翁曉琳昭偉她也提到說這個會期她擔任昭偉年金改革違反公平正義我要跟昭偉再次的喊話其實年金改革才是真正的落實公平正義我們無論如何期待新的會期司法法治委員會我們讓對話討論來取代過去的強行碾壓這個議題可以討論但真的不要為快而快也是我對翁委員的請求好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9516.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9527.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我問一下兩位兩個應該世代有一點點差異一個我叫老師一個我叫朋友同學老師你一個月基本生活手續要開多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9529.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9555.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我真的不多啦有的探機私人隱私就不方便講我真的不多啦真的不多物資需求不多會超過五萬塊嗎不會啦不會來這個祕書長你跟我年紀比較相仿你的世代你的基本生活所需是多少方便透露的話我好像沒有算你好像沒有算因為都老婆在替你管對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9557.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9561.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
會超過五萬嗎你個人的基本生活所需就是量入為出啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9562.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9589.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
量入位出我們要回答好像老婆虧待你的感覺其實對於剛剛朱立倫主席說的現在的通膨啦生活的指數啦如果年金繼續的砍下去呢所得替代率呢不停的話呢會影響退休公務同仁的基本生活所需我認為就要去定義基本生活所需是多少是合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9590.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9610.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我這裡有一個衛福部公告的六都還有全台灣的2025年的最低生活費它是一個參照我們不是說每個人都要過得這麼辛苦我不是而是說以這個官方的數字統計的最低生活費的統計首都貴了一點要每個月要兩萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9611.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9640.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
其他的六都除了台南大概一萬五千元之外其他的六都新北 桃園 台中 高雄大概都落在一萬六這是一個全國的數字的統整非六都的平均生活的基本的生活需支大概算出來是一萬五但是我們就要來看看剛剛朱立倫主席說的現在的退府如果不停砍的話他們的退休金是沒有辦法支應他的基本生活所需的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9641.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9670.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
現在的公教來請部長公務人員跟教育人員平均我這邊有試算他的月退的這個所得大概是多少我的數字正確嗎去年在跟公聽會的時候我們也有根據那時候的大概去年的一個數字去做一個平均值大概應該都有超過五萬塊平均值教育人員會高一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9671.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9695.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我這裡整理的數字公務人員是最新的數字是五萬五零六五六元一個月一個人教育人員的退休分是五七九七三其實都遠高於國家所試算的生活費的這一個range當然我說我們不是每個人都要過得很辛苦但是也不是每個人都要過得很 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9696.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9716.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
超出基本需求之外那兩位又可以分享一下嗎我們五萬在公務人員教育人員有五萬七的退休的平均那勞保呢勞工呢這是我現在走到哪面對最大的問題我想朝偉可能也會面對選民這樣的一個詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9718.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9730.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
老保加勞退平均的月退休的所得我們比一比就知道大概不會超過兩萬五所以比起來的話公教 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9731.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9757.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
是高出我們的勞工朋友兩倍以上那麼回到我說的基本生活所需的這一個衡量的標準如果說一個五萬多以上的退休縫還難以維持基本生活我覺得這個命題是值得我們在就社會的各個層面去理解下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9759.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9780.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
尤其我們當初修法的時候就已經針對所謂的通膨啦所謂的這個社會的不斷的進步發展啦我們各大的社會保險是不是都有一個一致的退休金的這個彈性調整的機制對不對部長當初修法的時候我們在年改的時候就考慮了嘛我們的規定是CPI的多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9782.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9810.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
5%嘛 政府累積5%政府累積5%都要檢討只要他是A or B嘛對不對CPI 5%或是每四年就一定對不對A and B啦 都要所以這五年來的退休金的調漲我算了基於這一個檢討評估的機制CPI跟著成長 還有加上加薪大概調了6% 是不是沒有錯 我們調了兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9812.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9832.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以說配合物價定期檢討來保障退休人員的基本生活所需跟符合社會的期待的這件事情我們當初年改的時候就考慮了最後一頁我看最後一頁就好我後面還有很多今天就不講對不起不是看國際國際OECD國家的平均所得替代率的平均數是50.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9835.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9849.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
OECD国家50.7%台湾的话以2025年所得替代率66%年改66%为例但是因为我们是本凤两倍用分母来算其实我们实质月退是高达77.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9851.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9867.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
已限在2025年所以台灣的公教的實質越退的所得替代率是高達77.9%遠高於OECD國家的50.7%所以我希望這個議題我們真的可以專業的理性的好好來討論最後一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9869.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9889.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這是民生議題年改是民生議題年改是國家的永續年改是世代的正義我們讓民生第一我聽到在野黨的委員也都說這個會期要民生第一如果要民生第一的話我們就優先來推動民生的法案或是讓民生的法案能夠落實政黨的合作而不是政治的對抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9890.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9916.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我希望新會期我們在司法法治委員會列下這樣子的互相勉勵的目標年改是民生請將民生議案適用政黨合作的方式而不是對抗的方式來推動我們理性的我一直在對著翁委員喊話希望朝委再安排後續我知道您可能安排公聽會啦相關的討論讓我們的多元的意見可以被彰顯我們理性來看待年改的相關議案謝謝部長謝謝秘書長謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9921.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9931.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝吳委員確實我接下來可能就會安排有關於公教人員退休金年改的再改革的公聽會那到時候我想會有很多方的意見那麼這個議題我認為說其實已經也到了一個時機點應該可以再重新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9937.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9952.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
討論再檢視過去這樣的一個做法是否合理好那接下來呢我們就請陳佩瑜委員發言那我在這裡先做個程序上面的宣告在陳委員詢答完畢之後我們先休息五分鐘沒有因為後面還有我本來以為說我本來以為也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9966.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9977.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
都沒有休息 五分鐘好好好 那我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答好 謝謝主席那我想先請詮釋部 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9993.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10015.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
部長早部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳司堯委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談非常的巧沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛司堯委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10015.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10029.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集語情相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況那我是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10031.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10052.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個那我們如果又來分入職一到五年入職五到十年入職十到十五年十五到二十年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10053.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10072.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同這是我簡單的推論以上我的推論是正確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10074.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10100.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
謝謝委員是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜是不是我把事情講清楚好 我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10101.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10128.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會 就絕對不會倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10129.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10151.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
但是不可能所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓它在138年公務人員138年就歸零 基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束接下來因為我們實施了新制 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10152.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10171.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10172.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10190.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10195.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10223.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我想我只把這時間點做一個說明我舉134年好了就新制度134年距離現在剛好20年距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10224.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10248.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10249.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10275.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10276.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10290.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好 部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能到130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10291.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10313.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢 領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能到65歲要退休剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就會領不到錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10315.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10337.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡那後面這個大的洞怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10338.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10347.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想就是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10349.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10369.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10371.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10387.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對 我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一是 就是我說的那個期間的心智的那個我也可以透露給你如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10387.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10413.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10413.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10433.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你10年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10433.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10453.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
好 我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10453.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10480.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10481.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10484.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10486.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10513.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛剛在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是 還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10514.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10539.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10541.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10555.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
這個是翁委員之前在司法法制委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10557.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10586.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保障委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10587.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10611.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好 謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前謝謝翁委員 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10614.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10617.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 謝謝陳委員那我們現在就休息一下我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10942.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10955.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
好 現在休息時間結束 我們就繼續開會那麼先請羅志祥委員發言好 主席有請那個考選部長 權序部長跟保訓會主委我想先請我們的部長 就是那個權序部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10969.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10972.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
立法院已經三讀通過警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10973.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11002.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
人員人事條例修正案嘛你知道嘛 對不對我知道那讓警察 消防 海巡 移民 空總人員可以提高退休的所得替代率讓他們退休生活更有保障嘛那我知道全區部當時是反對這個立法嘛那現在修法已經通過部長還是維持反對的立場嗎對 我還是維持反對但是我們會根據法律我剛剛已經報告過該我們做的事情我們都在執行中好 非常好你要執行 在執行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11003.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11013.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那我要特別再強調警察 消防 海巡 移民跟空總人員所執行的勤務都是全序部認定高度圍牢職務沒錯 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11016.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11035.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
圍繞支付認定表對啊所以這也是我們修法的一個原因那麼你像警察踩輪班制作息日夜顛倒還時常要長勤務來停修那因此他們的所得替代率我們有一個特殊的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11036.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11055.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那這個部分是當初一個立法目的那你也知道內政部警政署統計數字顯示警消的平均死亡年齡是75歲但我們國人平均壽命是81歲相比壽命差距達6年之多那我想請教一下為什麼會差那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11058.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11080.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
退休以後的平均餘命怎麼做跟很多因素影響不過我跟委員報告那一個數字可能大家可以再做double check一下我印象中我們部裡面掌握的數字應該沒有差到那麼多沒關係 你把數字再給我看好不好你不要口頭說數字不一樣數字拿給我看我們這也是看到政府相關的數字我們才拿出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11081.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11103.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
全序部一再稱危牢職務可以提早退休在職待遇較高可是事實上你沒去想過他們平均壽命為什麼那麼短其實跟他們的勤務有關跟他們職務關係有關不用講別的你拿錦霄來講的話錦霄的殉職的可能性就比一般公務員高得多得多沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11107.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11123.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我沒有實際的數字但是理論上應該是會那你如果要推翻理論你就實際數字拿出來所以在這邊我要跟部長講為什麼在這些事情的立場上我是立場比較強硬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11124.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11153.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
原因就是因為我們就是社會治安就靠警察保護我們都受警察保護的人打火兄弟每次出生入死大家也看到只要他們在火場當中殉職我們所有政府官員排排站全部去攻擊因此對於這些所謂的警消的退休生活的保障我們願意來去這是我們應該要給他的一個退休生活保障的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11153.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11182.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
特別的禮遇但是很遺憾今天我們看到政府處理態度並不相同那這是我們剛剛講就是說如果政府都不願意善待他們最近我們的政府很喜歡講要強化社會韌性跟民防韌性強化社會韌性強化民防韌性對待警消的人員友善一點然後能夠從他們立場多照顧一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11183.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11209.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那不就是一種社會任性跟民防任性的強化嗎那最後我接下來就要問事實上我們為什麼今天通過這個就是警察人人事條例要來去提高他退休後的所得替代率提高他退休的保障今天非常遺憾行政院就跟你講不編預算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11210.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11229.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
剛剛你已經講了說 權序部也做好準備啦因為立法院法律通過了嘛你個人反對都有尊重你的反對但立法院今天就是民意機關大家已經通過這個法律我想請教一下部長請問如果行政院不編預算請問你接下來工作怎麼進行啊你能進行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11231.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11246.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
因為根據我們憲法跟預算法的規定這個所有的中央政府總預算案的編制權是在行政院所以這個是行政院當然啦 我知道所以沒為難你嘛我剛剛質詢有為難你嗎沒有吧沒有預算你也做不了事嘛不是嗎 沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11247.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11275.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們就是按照我們該做的事情這事應該也沒有為難你啦這事你就回答就做不了事就對了啦你沒有預算怎麼做事告訴我你掏腰包嗎 部長你會掏腰包嗎這樣你掏腰包也不公平嘛 對不對所以你就做不了事嘛今天我要特別講為什麼在野黨要提出復議第一個原因就是坦白講我們覺得行政院這樣欺負警校我們是看不下去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11276.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11300.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
全區部都說他們是危險勤務的人員他們對我們國家在前面保障治安保障人民的生命財產安全立法院法律都通過了 我們是民意機關我還是要再次強調我不為難你 不叫你回答行政院現在提這個四線的說法坦白講是在欺騙社會大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11301.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11330.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
因為我相信你當公務員當部長當公務員這麼久我們也是我在政府單位也服務過非常清楚是要實現的程序嘛實現程序很簡單啦行政院是有權實現沒錯啦但是呢在大法官會議做出所謂的緊急處分緊急處分就有凍結法律的效果嘛沒錯吧對不對他做緊急處分他可以凍結這個法律嘛他在做緊急處分之前沒有凍結這法律之前這法律是有效還是無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11332.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11356.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這法律就是有效的那你今天在法律有效的情況下你跟我講說等大法官會議解釋出來你才要編預算這本身就是違憲侵犯立法權的核心更重要我當然知道現在行政院也不在乎立法權可是重點是什麼你也是在欺負我們的警察消防這些危險勤務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11357.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11384.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
同樣的道理這個當然跟權序部可能不是你主管了立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例除了提高自願加級對於訓練勤務繁重的戰鬥部隊弟兄也提高他們的加級這個你總知道吧這個法律通過你知道了雖然不是你們主管啦其實這個情況跟我剛剛前面講的那個警消的狀況是相同的所以結果一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11385.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11412.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們行政院還是不編預算啊還是不編預算啊在野黨說真的我們到現在為止都非常善意的像我們本來上禮拜本來有提退回總預算嘛後來我們商量以後跟在野黨商量以後覺得說不要用退回的方式等於讓行政院還可以有個再思考的機會所以我們就是沒有把退回案我們把退回案這個打住 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11413.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11442.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
然後我們現在改用的方式是提出復議提出復議其實用意就是給行政院一個機會不要把今天警消跟軍人的權益當作是一個政治鬥爭的籌碼比方說以軍人來講我們國防預算明年要高達九千四百九十五億佔據率百分之三點三二 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11443.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11470.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
比今年要增加1768億是史上最高但是我們看到行政院還是就是不編軍人的預算事實上我們現在兩岸我覺得我這樣講兩岸之間兵凶戰危大家都擔心戰爭發生的可能性請問部長戰爭發生以後是誰去保家衛國是誰答案應該很清楚吧 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11474.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11491.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
对啊 但最重要在前线冲锋陷阵守住疆土甚至牺牲生命最重要的最前线是谁 当然是国军嘛没错嘛那这种情况之下而且我们现在国军边线比都不够啊军校招生都越来越少啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11492.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11514.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
原因是什麼就是你今天不能夠一直用要他們去付出生命的代價但是又告訴他我不想要改善你的待遇我們今天國民黨其實在野黨就是因為看到兩岸之間可能有戰爭的風險所以今天我們希望能夠給軍人合理的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11516.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11543.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
让他们觉得今天当然保家卫国是他们光荣的责任他们会这么认为因为我们的军人是有爱国心的可是你也不能是因为他有爱国心就跟我讲说没关系待遇你就不要计较了这是为什么今天我们要提出这个军人待遇条例的一个修正的一个最重要原因所以在这边我真的也表达今天为什么我们今天提出复议案再次请 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11544.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11568.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們的行政院可以好好想想我們的軍人警消的一個情況那接下來我就要講就是說我們國民黨團已經將停侃公教年金的公務人員退休之前撫恤法以及公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤法列為本會期的要優先通過的法案 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11569.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11595.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我想請教部長你還是反對停侃公教年金嗎是不是我還是要從整個基金財務的角度呢提供這個說明然後我覺得幫我們把財務狀況做更清楚的說明大家好好討論你剛剛前面都已經講過我知道啦你的論點我一向都知道我想請教一件事情你知道你剛剛講說基金什麼破產啊什麼的問題嘛對不對是不是沒錯吧他會歸零歸零嘛來來來那我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11600.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11628.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
你知道我們勞保有類似的問題吧一樣勞動部的回答是什麼這幾年撥補了三千多億人沒錯吧對每年都有撥補每年都撥補他還是有破產問題對不對跟你一樣你知道勞動部怎麼講嗎勞動部說政府有最後支付責任勞保絕對不會倒大家請放心很有魄力那我就問了公教是二等公民嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11629.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11658.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
是嗎我支持喔我先講不要被扣帽子我支持勞保政府負擔最後支付責任勞保絕對不能倒我支持但是我要幫我們公教人員講一句話為什麼到公教人員這個政府的肩膀就不見了第三個我要跟部長講部長講我說我都沒有為難你都沒有為難你因為這所謂的雙標的問題我覺得你也不好回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11659.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11683.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
第三 我跟你講請問我們今天提的案子是要回到2018年以前的所謂的年金水準嗎 是嗎是不是沒有 是112年停止調降有112跟103停砍嘛 對不對所以不是要回到你的所謂的年金之前的狀況嘛我跟部長講一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11685.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11712.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我們也遇到太多太多我們現在公教人員我相信你不否認啦台灣不管時代建設激進奇蹟然後包括說今天我們台積電的建設都有很多優秀公務員在後面撥話這些公教人員在我們國家發展過程當中是我們最中間安定的力量今天卑微到什麼程度我就用個比喻跟你講啦你年金砍了這麼多年你把他血跟肉都砍掉了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11713.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11738.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
今天非常卑微是说不是要回到把血肉补回来只求求你骨跟筋不要再断它嘛手跟脚不要再断它嘛肉跟血都被你砍了 吸了很卑微我告诉大家我相信全民也能接受今天公教人员不是没有为你刚刚所谓的年金的永续你拿着这个大的一个目标 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11739.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11766.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
在犧牲自己 不是沒有耶這麼多年已經砍了多少了他們也沒有要求要回復到原點去啊只是真的砍過頭了嘛你們過去考試院提的版本也不是今天這個版本 沒錯吧不是後來現在實行這個版本 沒錯啊你們也沒砍那麼重啦真的到最後是砍過頭 我告訴你那今天也不過卑微的說拜託 留一口氣給公教人員吧謝謝您好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11770.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11774.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
好 謝謝龍委員那麼也謝謝部長那接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11804.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11827.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長 你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11828.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11858.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子但是我的記憶不一定完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11859.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11880.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
沒有一個嘛 我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊 嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有 蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這是通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11883.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11909.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
警消人员所得替代率恢复到被砍的八成很多人还恢复不了八成跟你廉资还有关系要服务满40年才有到八成那考试院你刚才说的不是只有行政院那考试院在做什么事情你们要审定对不对法定你的法律审定是不是你的法定义务你做了吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11910.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11937.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那個我們現在已經上次已經有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會總統公告法律就正式實施嘛對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯4月25號就應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11940.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11957.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11959.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11985.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以我們必須而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那是不是退伏法那是根據警察條例所以內政部老實說權者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動邀內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多差不多就緒了那等到6月底以前你為什麼你剛剛都知道法定預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11986.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12014.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥了對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12016.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12042.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你已經是不對時間拖太久第二個你看看來不一定來你看你開的內容來 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12046.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12061.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開一本就好了你開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12062.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12086.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你從4月29號開會 5月16 5月28 6月25到7月30你的結論都一樣 你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好 還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程你這樣對得起公教人員會議過程裡面 我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後 在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12087.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12104.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我不是這樣講我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責我們協助也開發系統 法定 你說問題在內政部當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責法定決定是我你等一下 我想必須定邊疑省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12112.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12137.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以突然之間你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12138.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12165.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到的退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁合訂這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12167.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12190.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
第一個你已經嚴重違法 拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你 你現在拖到現在沒給來 必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給你到時候要補嗎這是一個 第一要補利息要不要算進去他現在問題是你法律出來生效之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定就是法定預算已經夠了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12191.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12203.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
所以我剛剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了你是法律案過了但是沒有預算法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算對不對編不會當年度編 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12208.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12234.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
什麼叫不會當年入編他的權益是從這個法律專家之後開始不只嚴重對不起警消人員你整個法制的基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案你們現在拖延這麼久你們現在還說不是從4月25號是從4月25號啊你今天幾號 今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12235.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12256.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就報給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12256.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12275.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
到現在算不出來你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要 我問你好 那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底 快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個 理性是要什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12280.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12289.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你一億錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12293.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12315.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到 警消人員的權益所以我們問你第一 你有沒有賭職的問題第二個 對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12317.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12345.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
你少算 你現在給 四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數 你有沒有法治觀念你如果數學再不好一點你拖到明年才算好就到明年才能領這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果剩兩年 兩年後比較便宜是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12346.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12369.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來 我接著要問你一個很重要的事情不好意思 主席好現在預言還可以等我一下嗎好 現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準 你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12371.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12381.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
剛剛秘書長也承認嘛法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12383.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12401.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
蕭美琴提供花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊 過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴清的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在欺壓你水杯還對不起全國民眾他竟然講說我申請釋憲 按個按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12406.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12423.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
把自己當上帝了都侵犯到 霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘 抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12425.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12451.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產人家每一年都爭取到一千億最近三年已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧你如果怕你在講你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取你要少撥補你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產結果你又沒有積極去爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12454.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12466.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
一起努力啦 更重要的我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退路 把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦 已經法定預算過了守法 而且趕快不要再霸凌不要欺負我們的警消人員 謝謝好 謝謝商委員的訊息 質詢也請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12473.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12486.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
考試院秘書長這邊要注意有關於警消人員的權益的問題我們法律都已經生效了就應該立刻實施如果說是這個審定的部分程序上面稍微晚一點那但是要給這個要 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12488.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12514.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
要補那個差額退休金的這個事情也應該要公開的跟所有的退休的請教人員講讓他們安心政府一定會把這筆錢如實的交到他們的手上不能講說現在行政院就不編預算然後你們考試院也沒有作為也沒有記憶去爭取我覺得這樣是不對的所以剛剛其實張委員講的是很有道理的我也不斷的在說如果說今天換成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12516.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12535.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
一般的企業是雇主他可以這樣子去欠發勞工的薪水嗎這早就違反勞基法了對 公務員退休這些公教人員這些公務人員他們都是這些退休警校人員他們已經是很忍耐一直在等待然後政府看什麼時候可以把這個錢補給他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12538.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12563.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
不要忘記刑法上面有一個叫一流苛扣罪這依法要發給的款項你不發給就是違反刑法的相關規定我希望就是考試院可以站在維護這些退休警察人員的立場上要去跟行政院反映不要忘記在權力分立的體制上面你們和行政院是平行的行政院沒有比你們大 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12564.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12569.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
拜託請考試院一定要去積極地去爭取警校人員的權益好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12572.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12594.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好 那接下來我們請蔡議員委員發言那我在這邊先 對不起我這邊先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員尋答結束為止然後接下來應該是吳麗華委員 吳麗華委員 吳麗華委員葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在那接下來就請蔡議員委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12600.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12622.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
不好意思那還是請葉委員先讓蔡宇宇委員先發言好了繼續交換一下好 謝謝趙偉我們是不是有請考試院秘書長考選部部長跟選區部部長秘書長還有部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12628.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12650.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好 秘書長以及兩位部長事實上我要講的問題在之前在詢問的時候我有講現在還是要再講我們看這幾年來整個土木就是說國家的公務員土木相關的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12651.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12678.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
是非常的缺乏那我們以高普考的人數來看你來看工程類的在112年到114年缺額是增加了600人土木類的缺額是增加了400人報考的人數卻是從3300下降到2700所以缺額增加報考人數減少所以呈現的現在整個公務機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12680.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12699.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
非常欠缺在做這些工程的尤其是在這個越基層的公家單位我們也許我們去問內政部我們去問國土署他們都不會給你答案因為為什麼因為公務員在公家機關在中央機關資格比較高薪水比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12700.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12716.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
但是如果是在我們像嘉義縣非六都的那又有三級政府的他的待遇是又比不上在中央單位的待遇所以你看這裡的鄉鎮公所 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12717.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12725.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
他整個建設課請不上人,或是說一個好不容易培養一棟,差不多有經驗,有人要跑去,或是說別的單位,像我們這裡剛才林務署啦,很多單位就要挖角,人家就叫他繞過了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12734.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12757.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
所以人才我們基層一直沒有人才那這樣的狀況我覺得已經不是說地方政府留不住人這樣這一句話這麼簡單這個已經變成整個制度架構會讓整個地方政府在整個工程類我們有很多好的計畫要執行的時候地方政府沒有人可以做這些工作所以這個問題很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12760.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12781.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那我想要請教一下就是說我們不管是考試院我們在替國家在把著人才考選部我們的考試單位或者是我們全序部我們到底有什麼辦法可以強化整個地方政府把一流的土木人才可以留在公家單位呢這個有誰可以先來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12785.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12807.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
這是一個複雜的問題我先不講那個待遇這方面的一個事情而是說考試院這邊 部裡面這邊做的就是說我們最近確實也調整了做這個植物類等的通案調整譬如說我們把所有工程機關的委任的那個職缺就會減比例啊 配置比例的變少變少意思是說因為比較多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12809.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12833.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
設建任這個東西就是對於基層機關來講就會更大的一個有升遷的機會讓他想要留在這個機關繼續服務他有比較高他的薪水就相對會比較高一點我們能做的大概是比較偏這一方面來做一些努力其他就是說我們也會放寬譬如像說譬如說你去外面有專業證照的人你也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12833.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12848.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
也可以很順利的進到機關裡面來使用或者你也可以營用非限職人員其實這些都是我們部裡面這邊可以努力去讓這些特別是像土木工程這種機關缺人的時候我們提供那些機制給他們使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12849.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12870.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個 我想這個議題是真的是一個很複雜很複雜的議題我了解這個 大家都在叫部長 部長 當然欠人大家黨委都說欠人可是現在我們對於這種機關需要有這些工程人才這件事情我覺得態度上就沒有其他你說我們為了留住這個機關要有醫師或獸醫我們還開設了叫什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12875.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12896.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
不开业奖金 不开业奖金那就是有什么办法然后说我因为有不开业奖金那我放弃我可能在民间尤其现在兽医兽医师现在民间多好赚但他会愿意留在公部门表示在公部门有足够的诱因所以我们创设了不开业奖金但是在工程这一类我觉得一直被漠视 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12897.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12911.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
一直大家不覺得這件事重要我們要推動很多好的建設基層的公務員尤其是在第一線新辦人員是最重要的新辦人員這個工廠大家監督得好這個工廠後面的品質他的水準一定都會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12918.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12938.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
對不對這樣事實上我覺得我們全區部還是我們考試部我們還是在國家怎麼用人怎麼培養人這件事情上在於這個工程人才不管是土木系的或者是他是工程的 建築系的這裡的人才我們要給他最好的方法劉才公社這關有誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12939.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12951.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
他們不理我事實上原因很多層還有一種就是覺得說公家機關可能風險高民間機關沒有風險大禹又好有很多原因的這個原因我們不可以說因為原因在這裡所以我們就不該解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12954.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12969.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
不然我們就沒辦法改觀 不能這樣啦 要想辦法我想行政院人事刑事總署也努力在透過代議獎金這部分改觀我們這邊就透過變成植物獵的等候或是其他相關的一種方式來解決大家都有想辦法啦可能好過還沒像大家預期這樣啦部長我覺得還有一點啦 所以我們在想辦法的要從 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12978.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12993.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
基層機關比如說你們應該要回到鄉鎮公所或者是地方政府他們的用人因為我們在中央機關真的在這一點的感受沒有基層機關的強烈因為中央的機關只等比基層還快所以人會往更好的地方去就不想留在基層 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12999.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13003.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我們這基站是很重要的 這間丹納斯颱風所有的這個勘測 要復原 要去認定 都是基層人員做的這基站我們是知道要讓它有誘因 留在基層單位所以我們這間通案的概念裡面是以地方政府不是很重要的一個角色我們在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13020.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13042.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
好啊好啊 我希望趕快拿出更多好的對策出來讓他們留在基層有尊嚴 待遇又好 留在基層好我覺得基層越強壯代表我們中央政府越強有啦 我也想要在那邊正康 我也想在那邊去教育他們那樣 他們就管政後來面了解一些情報你也要跟他們講話 要叫啦 要哄騙人啦有啦 我了解 要聽他們的聲音啦好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13050.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13068.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
好 謝謝蔡委員那剛因為就是這葉委員 朱委員稍微錯過了那請葉委員葉委員還要再申請發言是不是 對吧是 好 對這邊的話我邀請你可以再繼續對 最後一位質詢 可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13070.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13083.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
好 那我們繼續宣告因為登記發言委員已經尋答完畢但是現有議員之委員希望能夠再請求尋答如果在場如意的話我們接著就請議員之委員進行尋答時間五分鐘請秘書長還有權序部請秘書長 權序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13092.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13110.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
喂好秘書長好現在考試院就是說10月10號開始要針對公務人員新增三天的身心調適假這個身心調適假講的目標非常遠大說是要呼應健康台灣的願景健康台灣是賴總統提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13112.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13136.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
呼應這個願景所以要推出這三天的身心調試假然後它的內容就是公務人員每年可以請三天病毒試駕計算然後以小時計免醫療證明機關不得那個主管不得拒絕應該是這樣沒錯吧那我不知道秘書長你有沒有去跟基層公務人員聊過這個身心調試假你覺得他們對這個身心調試假會有期待呢還是覺得可有可無 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13138.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13167.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
你有沒有去了解一下基層公務人員的心勝跟委員報告因為今天才實施因為願景很紅沒有啦今天才實施沒錯啦但是公務人員可以預期這個價對他來說是有用沒有用過去在討論的時候有請一些跟一些機關討論他們期待嗎這三天應該是說這個價本身他們覺得事實上是對調節身心來講有需要的時候確定當然是有幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13168.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13189.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那部長我請問一下你現在是病度試駕七天對不對對公務人員一年請七天試駕是不用扣薪的嘛對吧你現在是把七天試駕說如果你有請三天身心調試駕的話那你還有四天試駕是可以不用扣薪沒錯吧對那對他來說有什麼差他請試駕就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13190.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13201.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
一般來說 公務人員請假大部分 我遇到很多人其實不會請到士兵假不會請到士兵假如果要請假的話試假就寫有事就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13202.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13228.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
他也不用告訴你他要幹嘛我有事我在家裡面休息也算是有事啊對不對 我只要說我有事 私事我就可以請試駕那我何必要去請那個身心調試駕我請了身心調試駕我主管還會覺得我是不是身心壓力太大還怎麼樣他會不會還抱什麼為我來講會不會惹一些麻煩所以我就請試駕就好你今天如果說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13229.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13254.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
你說新增身心調試假三天不併入試假計算外加的變成說公務人員可以請十天有請假我是舉例啦當然沒有說一定要這樣做十天那有差但你如果是給了三天然後呢就說這個併入試假那哪有差不信你可以問我們在場立法院的公務人員你問他們有沒有差沒有差啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13255.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13280.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
根本沒有差然後講的那個願景很偉大好像說我們這個是配合健康台灣有了這三天之後就不得了了公務機關都健康了我覺得這個有點太言過其實了你講的一部分我覺得也可能反映一些人的想法不過第一個就是說身心條件是這樣的機關不能拒絕一般警視架也不會拒絕我們也不希望說身心的健康這個問題好像是一個汙名化的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13280.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13302.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
所以這也是在社會觀念慢慢在轉變大家越來越重視這一塊所以也不用因為請身心調適假有覺得有什麼被汙名化的我沒有說被汙名化我是說有些人怕麻煩嘛所以你現在是鼓勵大家請身心調適假然後讓身心問題不要被汙名化你訂這個假的目的是這個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13303.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13325.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
還是你是希望公務人員得到好的保障目的是哪一個如果你的目的是要讓公務人員請假比較方便或者是讓他壓力變小我覺得你這樣的做法也許理想很豐滿現實很骨感所以我覺得如果要真的有重視這一塊的話要想別的辦法不是用這三天身心調事假來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13327.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13335.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
對 就是說你加一天比如說你七天試駕加一天身心調試駕是外加的我覺得可能可以達到效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13335.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13358.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
但你病入那就效果有限我想加入我們中式生意健康的其中的一環我們員工協助方案去協助員工這方面的議題或是紓解生意壓力這個部分其他部分都要一起做第二 剛剛蔡議員也有問他說現在公務人員報考的或者是特別是在工程類地方政府都很缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13359.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13379.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我跟一些基層公務員聊過了他們說兩件事情第一個公務員現在的薪資其實跟業界比也不見得比得上公務員剛進去的時候薪資不錯但是到中高階的時候就趨緩了就沒有辦法跟業界中高階來比第二個以前大家認為公務員有一個比較完善的退休保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13380.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13397.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
但是自從就是我們所謂政府年金改革之後大家對於政府失去信任我跟現在在職的公務員聊天我是說年金如果說讓他停扣的話對你有什麼影響他說停扣我退休還有20年當然停扣是好的但是我退休還有20年 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13398.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13419.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我們的政府就改一改去到時候又變了怎麼辦其實這件事情我覺得才是最大的一個危機就是我們的一些優秀人才他對於政府失去信任當時招攬人才進入到政府的時候跟他講說你的退休一定會有保障薪資可能稍微低一點但是沒關係你退休一定有保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13420.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13447.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
忽然間改了完全失去信賴保障原則而這個不是針對已經受影響那些退休公務人員是針對未來的人才已經在職的年輕公務人員都是有影響他們基本上是對政府失去信心我覺得這件事情這個考試院應該也要正式就是說要怎麼樣去扭轉這一切那我不知道說部長或者是秘書長你對於國民黨委員提出來的年金改革的版本你有了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13449.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13474.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我們知道有沒有要恢復18%沒有18%然後是不是要回到之前的水準所謂的替代率有沒有也沒有嘛對不對因為外面現在有很多不知道是誤解還是故意傳說現在國民黨的年金改革就是要回到以前的水準恢復18%啦恢復替代率恢復75%沒有嘛現在是停扣嘛那停扣的目的是什麼停扣的目的是大家做一個通盤檢討嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13476.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13503.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
然後再來就是我覺得政府要展現一個態度就是說我們之前做了但是沒關係現在既然有這個聲音好我們就來通盤檢討一下再一次給外界一個表達跟立場的說明然後我覺得還有一件事就我剛剛講的你要換回公務人員對政府的信任因為這個不是只有對之前的公務人員這對於我們招攬人才也都是有幫助的希望考試院可以往這個方向去 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13503.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13510.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我想基金財務如果不健全的話大家也會對這個退休制度會有那信任的問題勒信任的問題勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13511.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13537.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所以這個部分我覺得委員剛剛講沒有錯啦都改來改去啊所以你要檢討嘛你要有一個完整論述就是前面是已經造成一些裂痕嘛要一個完整論述嘛對啊 謝謝好謝謝葉委員發言那麼現在委員們都已經發言完畢然後詢答結束委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或者是以書面答覆的話就請 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13538.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13557.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
考試院及所屬機關要儘速送交給個別委員以及本會那麼有關於武帝華委員他有提書面質詢那就列入記錄刊登公報那並且請相關機關以書面答覆好 那麼今天會議就到這邊結束謝謝大家 |