| IVOD_ID |
16928 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16928 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-08T08:38:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-08T15:06:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
06:27:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685523447af23cba8b8457003ecf495b44e2eb94a68550f7b5b3af88b4f82f20efd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、勞動部部長及衛生福利部部長針對「災後復原重建及清理因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另邀請國防部、經濟部、內政部、賑災基金會列席備詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:38:50 - 15:06:00 |
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報告委員會初席委員人數12人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會各位同仁然後還有各位部會的官員還有媒體先進和國人同胞大家早安那今天在這個新的會期開始的時候我們是就要就這個災情做一個 |
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復原重建的展開巡打但是我想要在這個宣布開會之前先感謝所有這個在災區第一線的日以繼夜復出的國軍弟兄 警消 醫護然後以及中央政府還有花蓮縣市政府以及各縣市政府第一時間就跨區域的合作那也更要感謝 |
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這個全台灣的所有的這個志工產值超人挖土機超人各種超人喔到第一線去救災那我想施大家的力量所以可以讓世界看到我們在台灣在這個災中災難中的韌性和這個 |
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1406.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
溫暖也看到大家同島一面那非常感謝大家是這些每一個人的付出讓花蓮有這個重新回到正常的為花蓮鋪出一條回家的道路所以再次感謝大家那我們現在開始開會然後請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1408.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1437.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
立法院第十一屆第四會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第一次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年十月一日星期三九時三分至九時十七分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員邱委員鄭君等十五人主席王委員正續在場委員現場推舉報告事項一本院第十一屆第四會期各委員會召集委員選舉時間及地點業經提報本院第十一屆第四會期第一次會議決定招案通過在案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1437.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1456.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
二一立法院各委員會組織法第三條之四規定本會應制召集委員二人三宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項選舉第十一屆第四會期本會召集委員主席宣告推選廖委員韋翔及劉委員建國為本會期本會召集委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1457.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1474.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
一立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第五條之規定本次召集委員之選舉以推選行之召集委員當選人依同法第八條之規定由國民黨黨團民進黨黨團及臺灣民眾黨黨團書面同意推選定之宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好沒有議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1487.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1515.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
再來是本日會議議程為邀請環境部部長勞動部部長以及衛生福利部部長針對災後復原重建及清理因應作為進行專案報告並被質詢另邀請國防部經濟部內政部及政災基金會列席備詢現在介紹在場委員由我們的陳寅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1519.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1548.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
林月琴委員王振旭委員以及列席官員環境部部長彭啟明部長勞動部部長洪森漢部長以及衛生福利部部長石崇良部長還有環境管理署署長嚴旭明署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1551.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1576.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
資源循環署副署長林建三副署長還有化學署副署長陳淑玲副署長以及勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉黃署長職業安全衛生署的林玉堂署長還有勞工保險局局長白立貞局長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1579.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1593.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
勞動保險司司長陳美女司長謝謝勞動關係司司長王厚偉王司長謝謝勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃齊亞司長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1598.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1626.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
以及社會救助及社公司司長蘇昭如蘇司長謝謝長期照顧司司長祝建方司長心理健康司副司長鄭淑欣副司長還有醫事司檢任記證呂念慈以及保護服務司的科長黃瑞文 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1629.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1653.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
還有附屬醫療及社會福利機構管理會執行長林慶豐 謝謝還有疾病管制署的署長羅一鈞 謝謝以及中央健康保險署的陳亮瑜陳署長食品藥物管理署副署長王德源副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1656.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1674.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
謝謝還有國防部作戰及計劃參謀次長室的助理次長彭國舟彭助理次長你好謝謝經濟部水利署副署長這個黃洪浦副署長謝謝能源署代理署長李軍理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1677.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1694.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
還有國營事業管理司的科長林漢龍謝謝台灣電力股份有限公司專業總工程師黃明宏謝謝還有台灣自來水股份有限公司副總經理王傳政謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1697.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1725.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
內政部國土管理署副總工程陳思林又林謝謝還有財團法人政災基金會督導陳宗良謝謝農業部動植物防疫檢疫署主任秘書陳子偉謝謝還有原住民族委員會公共建設處檢任記政孟中傑好謝謝以上為列席官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1727.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1754.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
接下來請第一個環境部彭部長報告主席各位委員還有各部會的代表由我們環境部來第一個報告就是災後復原重建還有清理的因應作為事實上我們台灣從7月開始遭遇到這個丹納斯颱風這個是有史以來第一次在嘉義布袋登陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1754.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1780.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
当地的强风也造成台南嘉义非常大的一个重创这个是绝无仅有这100多年的历史记录绝无仅有的那第二个呢随后之来这一个月一个月当中到了七月底又遇到这个豪雨事件这个是几乎是莫拉克等级的一个降雨直逼莫拉克雨量的一个等级这两个呢也造成我们南部非常大的重创那这个马太安西的烟色湖呢基本上台风没有来画家沙没有来 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1780.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1803.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
可是呢在因為它的迎風面的關係在這個馬太安的這個上游呢監測站我看到監測站大概兩天下了將近800毫米當然也讓這個眼色湖發生了這個議題的一個事件那我們環境部呢是負責整個環境的治理的一個事件第一個呢是我們配合行政院在雲嘉南災後復原前進指揮所我們很快的就進駐而且我們負責這個環境復原重建組的這個執行秘書由我們次長來擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1808.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1835.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
到現在為止已經開了16次的會議另外我們在嘉義也成立一個災後復原的南部辦公室由我們輪流跟嘉義市政府台南市政府一起來合作目前清理的情形第一個是台南市台南市的風災的廢棄物是非常多大概是12萬多噸非常的多大多數是屬於這種家庭的廢棄物還有樹木等等目前正在清運當中第二個是嘉義市嘉義市大概是8000多噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1836.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1864.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
也都是屬於廢樹枝 廢家具等等我們希望把它全部的再處理再利用的過程加一線也大概有11000多噸目前也是在破碎後續的在處理當中目前最關心的就是石棉瓦的廢棄物我們原來預估大概是15000多噸但是後來也把畜牧場還有工廠把它加進去所以目前在家庭的廢棄物的成效來說的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1865.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1887.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
大概有九成已經都被清掉了現在是隨預約隨清已經在進行當中不過比較慢的就是畜牧場這個要配合農業部還有我們工廠的拆除跟經濟部一起後續來進行未來目前我們針對九成的已經處理了大概有一半以上都送最終的處置還有七千多個一半左右還是正在等待在去化當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1888.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1915.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那至於光電板的復原的部分呢這次總共33個光電廠受影響總共影響12.1萬片那目前呢我們只有1.2萬片收集佔至於合法的場地那其他大多數包含了1.8萬片是沒有損壞的可以再利用檢修盒會再利用那另外9.1萬片已經送到處理機構把它去化回收完成那大家最關心的這個水質我們把破損的那幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1916.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1942.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
滯洪池都有經過水質的檢測總共檢測了五次基本上都是多數的重金屬都是零檢出當然當地有一些蒙或是當地屬於地質的條件稍微高一點點但是都在環境許可範圍裡面請各位可以放心那我目前呢因為丹拉市的特別預算我們徵取到環境部徵取到了16億848萬元那也謝謝貴院大院的一個同力的支持這個會是在實面的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1944.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1960.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
還有災後的廢墟的清運等等我們會預計在未來兩年內能夠把它這個去化可以完成那至於說這個馬太安溪的煙太湖的這個事件呢其實如果各位委員或是現場民眾有到現場看的話基本上它不是淹水它是這個屠殺整個進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1961.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1982.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
基本上災情真的是比莫拉克更嚴重更難處理因為整個包含了這個光復的掩埋場被整個土砂所淹沒也造成垃圾大量的這個溢出那目前我們在9月21號除了進駐中央災害應變中心之外9月24號中央災害應變中心的前進協調所也成立了本部的省次長擔任這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1985.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2012.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
執行秘書也協助參與在裡面那我個人本身也去了三天那未來呢我們還會持續的去因為我們本部也投入了相當大的人力最主要的是我們協調花蓮縣政府花蓮縣政府哪些做的可能還不夠的地方我們來補他的不足主要我們在淤泥跟垃圾的清運方面還有各種的專業的車輛跟調度現在各個縣市如果有新增的都是由環境部統一來做調度來協助這個軍方還有各級的單位來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2013.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2032.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那我們也解決了校舍還有各種民宅等等問題那現在的重點就是在水溝跟測溝這個是環境部跟國土署國土署在主責我們在協助他們目前在30公里淤積這個淤積是非常嚴重的基本上完全被土砂所淤積目前已經清了大概有10公里左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2032.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2052.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那當然這個淤積的部分馬桶當然就不通目前災區的話大概有四成的馬桶是淤積的所以我們也希望在10月18號以前把這個側溝或是下水道能夠趕快把它清除完成這個我要特別謝謝很多的智責工超人很大力的幫忙所以未來我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2053.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2071.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
最重要的是跨部會協調相關的包含在座許多的部會我們都很努力的去針對未來的淤泥進行規劃那這次呢目前到現在為止清除的淤泥到昨天為止大概有八萬五千多噸我們預期會超過十幾萬噸甚至有可能會到百萬噸淤泥加垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2073.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2101.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因为淤泥如果是干净的淤泥的确可以再利用但是淤泥如果加垃圾就要再做一个筛分的工作那目前我们动员的人力跟机具都相当的多那现在来说的话还有一个就是流动厕所因为当地的这个马桶大概都多数是一半以上最早的时候多数都不通我们也设置了很多的流动厕所尤其是针对当地有很多年长者他无法做蹲式的所以我们也提供了非常多做的坐式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2101.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2121.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
公共的這個馬桶然後聽另外一個呢是環境的一個消毒的作業另外當地的這個自來水呢基本上水質是沒有問題我們也監測量測了252件的這個水魚基本上水質都是安全無虞的不過我們還是提醒民眾要煮沸才能夠進行飲用那另外一個呢是因為當地 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2123.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2140.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
突然產生出大量的垃圾還有加淤泥所以我們目前我們也感謝台塘的協助規劃了六處的佔治場那現在已經用到第三處了第四次 第四到第六處目前大概有24公頃總共大概是30公頃我們預計會可以容納百萬噸的這個淤泥加垃圾能夠來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2146.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2166.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
另外一個是當地的大量的淤泥有很多的媒體報導說淤泥含有重金屬基本上由於光復香並沒有所謂的工業化學工業它受到污染的機會是微乎其微的但是我們還是很努力的去進行一個樣本採樣基本上跟過去當地的底泥的數據是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2168.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2195.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
的確是有一些微量的重金屬但是它是屬於地質的天然的背景所以基本上都是屬於環境的可容許的範圍對我們人體不會有直接的一個影響沒有污染的一個疑慮那大家最關心的是未來這個混雜廢棄物如何處理大概有兩個部分首先第一個一定要把它分類這個分類一定要等乾了之後才能夠分類所以我們要有乾燥前處理因為它基本上很黏又很硬所以未來我們現在已經規劃好 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2197.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2220.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
要有各種的破碎機、分選機等等的篩出細砂跟粉土我們也協調了當地水泥公司能夠來做一些去化未來的去化第一個如果是垃圾廢棄物當然就是縣政府他們要來處理這個目前花蓮縣沒有焚化爐他們都是委託給台泥在做處理的這個我們也協調完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2221.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2247.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
未來的沙土當然這個就要共同來協助所以也謝謝各個部會我們的確都談到相關的一個去化的一個問題那未來呢因為農業部也包含了有大概有600 600 700公頃的被淤泥複製的農地所以這個不未來的去化我們會跨部會的統一來協調來進行環境部會來做一些未來希望把這些沙土做更有效的一個再利用的工作當然這個是一個漫長的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2248.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2263.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們希望這個也要提出一些新的預算能夠希望追加預算也希望貴院可以給我們支持最後呢我代表環境部感謝國人全體的資源一方有難 八方來源我們同島一命的團結精神那我要特別感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2264.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2292.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
幾十萬的志工超人因為我去了非常多次多火車站著跟他們一起站我非常的感動也特別謝謝我們的國軍的部隊他們基本上這個義無反顧的全力支援還有各縣市的環保局從第一天就一直進駐到現在還有很多的熱心企業們像包含童子賢他自己都私人的管道都讓我們環境部來統一來調度那也謝謝感謝懇請委員那個未來能夠支援我們相關的復原經費因為這條 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2293.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2311.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
復原的經費這個量非常的大也希望大院能夠給予支持所以最後呢我們感謝所有支援的單位跟人員至上最誠摯的感謝謝謝謝謝彭部長的報告那再來有請勞動部紅部長報告嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2323.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2343.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主席 各位委員 那各位記者朋友大家好那今天很謝謝這個貴委員會的邀請那召開災後復原重建及清理這個因應作為的專題報告那本部就提供就業協助措施還有支持災區重建防護工作的部分來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2344.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2370.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那請各位委員來指教那首先那先針對就業協助措施的部分那勞工部提供以下的措施那第一個是在天然災害臨時工作津貼的部分那依照地方政府需求提供災區失業者臨時工作機會來協助災區的災民清理家園那人員上工的期間每人每小時會以最低工資190元合給 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2373.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2400.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個工作津貼那每個月最高是28,590元那實施的期間原則上是1到2個月那最長可以到6個月那後續將是災後復原的情形必要時再得延長那截至114年10月2號為止丹納斯颱風還有那個0728豪雨目前以一用人單位所提的用人需求目前已經核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2403.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2416.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
2652個臨時工作機會那以上工人數已經達2431人那另外畫家沙颱風的部分已經第一時間主動聯繫包括地方政府也包括這個鄉鎮公所那 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2417.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2437.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
也來了解他們臨時用人的需求那目前暫時是有花蓮縣台東縣還有高雄市陸續提出用人需求那其中花蓮地區已經全數核定他們工作機會那本部將持續積極的協助災區失業勞工的就業那也盡速辦理相關的事宜那 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2438.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2460.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
接下來也會由本部的勞動力發展署所屬的分署也就是北分署來接受零工的登記然後協助復原工作那在職業訓練的部分那只要是在災區事業民眾報名參加本部的自辦委辦或補助辦理的各類職前訓練課程都可以免徵式錄取 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2460.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2476.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
而且也免负担训练费用另外符合规定者那也可以申请职业训练的生活津贴那在区在职的劳工参加本部自办或者是产业人才投资方案的职训 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2477.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2501.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
課程也不用負擔這個訓練費用那到10月2日子但那是颱風還有0728的豪雨目前有96名的失業者還有21829名的在職勞工報名那畫家山颱風部分那也持續的向災區的民眾來宣導那在創業貸款緩衝的部分那我們也提供本部微型創業貸款貨帶的受災戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2504.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2531.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
还款缓冲的措施那在保费减免及伤病给付的部分那行政院从114年7月18日起陆续公告丹纳斯台风还有0728号以及杨柳台风灾区的范围那为协助受灾劳工本部依照灾害防救法的规定针对灾区受灾的劳保灾保和救保的保险人给予灾后6个月期间的保险费的补助 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2532.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2548.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
而且依照災區縣市政府所送的名冊我們會來主動比對那民眾不需要提出申請那另外勞保災保還有被保險如果因災致傷病不能工作而未能取得取得援有薪資的那至 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2549.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2572.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
治療當日也就是可能你從門診開始那可以依規定來請領傷病的給付那最長可以發給6個月那除了上述的就業協助措施以外那也支持這個災區重建防護工作本部也提出以下三項的措施喔那首先是協助災後住宅的修繕那本部從114年8月1號起放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2576.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2603.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個公共工程的營造業僱主可以調派所聘僱的移工至受災戶從事災後住宅修繕那復建工作那該項一般營造業的工程的移工目前是有9492人那另外在支持災區重建防護的部分針對丹納斯颱風還有這個災後石棉屋瓦浪板拆除的清理作業為保護作業人員之健康安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2604.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2614.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們的治安署已經頒布了因應災後實面污垃浪板拆除清理作業危害預防處理原則那提供雇主和相關作業人員來遵循並 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2616.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2643.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
於前線設立災後重建防護指揮所那有四處的防護服務站還有職業安全衛生的輔導團那主動而且深入的進入到災區辦理實面拆除危害預防輔導且提供諮詢協助那另外針對花架山颱風造成花蓮地區的事業單位的損害那我們會來從寬認定並提供中小企業安全衛生設施及器具的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2644.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2664.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
补助并加强事业单位和灾后复原重建的安全卫生宣导和辅导那最后在协助灾后社区重建的部分那本部会来推动这个赔利就业计划那结合民间团体来执行灾区的家园心理产业社区还有文石等重建工作的计划 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2664.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2681.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那由本部来补助金融人员的工作津贴还有执行费用那民营团体也可向我们来的所属各分属来申请计划那受灾事业者也可以至当地的就业中心办理求职登记那经过推介派工那即刻就可以上工那 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2682.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2703.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們接下來也會持續以協助失業勞工的就業為目標來適時推動相關的措施那並配合行政院的指示那積極參與相關的任務編組來保障這個受災民眾相關的勞動的權益以上報告謝謝謝謝洪山部長報告那接下來請衛福部石崇良部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2714.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2732.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
主席 各位委員 非常榮幸今天受邀列席報告以下就支就花蓮 馬太安溪 堰塞湖的災害事件有關災後復原的一些作為來提出本部的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2734.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2752.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
本部在今年的9月23日就啟動了八大的應變措施包括第一時間就先預防性的撤離可能造成孤島地區的孕婦或透析患者同時掌握整個緊急醫療的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2753.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2777.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
同時也啟動了DMAT進入前進到災區設立醫療站提供災民及時的醫療跟就醫的需要同時也協助地方政府來開設災民的收容安置中心提供災民的臨時安置也啟動社工的關懷跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2780.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2797.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
相關的生活上的協助那麼另外目前也進入到這個復原階段的心理支持重建等等那以下在就復原重建的進度做補充說明第一個是醫療資源的這個復原重建部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2798.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2826.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那麼在光復鄉的醫療資源在災害發生前主要是以光復衛生所另外有三家的西醫診所兩家的牙醫診所三個藥局跟一家的居家護理所為主那麼截至目前為止因為這個衛生所的一樓的這個災損比較嚴重那麼預計是在10月11號左右先恢復這個二樓的服務那另外在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2827.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2851.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
光復糖廠的部分以醫療站來協作的醫療場域另外診所的部分已經有兩家恢復看診至於其餘的一家西醫診所 牙醫診所跟藥局預期還需要一兩個月才能夠恢復服務因此在這段期間我們會加強在當地的醫療服務的提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2851.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2872.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
包含透過跟當地的醫師公會跟醫療院所的協助那麼增加這個IDS的補充性團隊資源那麼同時也結合這個其餘的這個醫院或者是醫師公會來共同補充這個不足的部分那麼第二個呢是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2874.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2894.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
災民的短期安置關懷跟支持方案的部分那很謝謝這個全國的民眾的踴躍的捐輸那麼在我們9月25號那麼發起這個捐款之後呢那麼到昨天為止已經募集超過10億的喪款非常感謝全國民眾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2894.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2916.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
支持那我們也儘速的將這一些喪款能夠發到這個需要的災民那麼因此我們在昨天那麼配合整個行政院進駐到災區開設一站式服務那麼首先會優先的發放死亡重傷的這個慰問金那麼另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2917.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2933.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
除了這個慰問之外呢如何協助災民迅速的重建生活所以第一個呢我們有家園支持方案就每一戶呢那麼由這個內政部的特別預算裡面的10萬加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2934.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2956.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我们这个善款里面的25万每户可以有35万来协助他们做家园的清理跟房屋的修缮恢复他们的日常生活那么在这个修缮期间需要短期住宿的那么我们也提供到10月底之前那么只要是涉及在 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2957.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2972.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這個光復鄉的那麼都可以申請這個7加7的短期住宿我們結合這個旅宿包含旅館跟民宿的媒合那麼最多可有14天每日2000元的補助來協助在這一段這個家園 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2975.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2993.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
清理復原過程當中的住宿需求後續還會有安簽跟租賃的一些贈助也會陸續的協助這個是有關於在協助災民回復生活的部分另外當然在 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2995.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3017.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個疫後的疫情監測跟防疫也相對的重要所以我們在疫情這個災情開始的時候就開始針對各個收容安置中心進行疫情的監測那整個災區也不斷的在強化這個宣導這個防疫的重要性所以到 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3018.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3043.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這個目前為止那麼疫情還算平穩並沒有特殊的傳染病的發生那在消毒劑的部分我們CDC在10月3號特別調播2000瓶的分類的消毒劑來提供這個需要做家園清理消毒上的需要那另外全國我們還有庫存2萬多瓶都可以隨時的調度使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3043.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3060.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那另外在這個新冠跟流感的這個疫苗的接種部分那麼今年的這個新那個流感的疫情來得比較早那麼連續9週都是呈上升的趨勢所以我們在10月1號是 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3061.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3083.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
正式全國開打左流右心那麼在花蓮的部分我們是先災區提早同時放寬施打的對象在光復鄉的地區那麼不限於我們的公費流感的對象限制所有的涉及者或者是在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3085.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3102.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
这个救灾志工工作人员也都适用可以施打这个流感跟新冠疫苗那另外在这个公费流感的抗病毒的部分也是扩大使用的那么第四个呢是有关于灾后的这个心理卫生 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3102.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3124.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
重建的部分那我們除了一開始就這個啟動這個一戶一社工對於這個迷難者失聯者重傷者或者是脆弱家庭那麼經濟弱勢的都啟動一戶一社工的服務之外那麼也謝謝我們社工師這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3126.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3142.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
公會全聯會跟我們一起合作那麼也開始在10月4號前進災區開始進行加護訪視來提供災民的關懷支持情緒的撫慰等等那麼我們後續呢也有這個相關的這個諮商 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3147.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3175.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
臨床心理師跟諮商心理師公會等等大家一起合作動員社區的欣慰中心以及部立的育理醫院開始設立安心關懷站來提供各項的心理支持或者是心理健康篩檢等等的服務我們目前也在擬聚比較長期的可能會長達一年以上的心理關懷的重建計畫希望來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3177.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3194.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
災民共度這個災難所帶來的陰影盡速的走出這個悲傷面對這個突如其來的天災我想我們要在此 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3197.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3221.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
對所有的災民表達本部跟災民站在一起所以任何的需要我們會及時的提供也感謝在這段期間的所有的醫護人員以及志工投入協助花蓮的災民能夠儘速的重建生活以上的報告再請各位委員指教 謝謝謝謝石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3227.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3238.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告第一本會委員會詢答時間為6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3243.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3267.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
第二十點三十分截止發言登記第三委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理第四暫定十點三十分休息十分鐘第五原則上十一點三十分呢處理臨時提案十一點截止收案現在請登記第一位委員林月琴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3277.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3300.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
主席麻煩我們的彭部長有請彭部長林委員好 部長早這次花蓮環境部應該設了4個戰事場堆放過超過1萬噸的泥沙還有接近1萬噸的廢棄物而且數字還在增加 現在災區的泥沙跟垃圾都集中在堆置 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3301.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3317.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那現場已經傳出我們的腐爛臭味也擔心病菌滋生我知道環境部環管署的那個原署長提過會評估把土質良好的淤泥再利用可是公衛專家提醒天然不等於無害 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3318.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3330.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
尤其是東部沿城的一個重金屬背景值本來就高所以請問一下部長說在利用之前環境部要怎麼確保這些巨量的淤泥做過完整的土壤檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3332.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3354.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
包委員我剛剛有報告過就是說土壤檢測的部分我們的確這個是當地的土質的特性有微量的重金屬但是他都是在環境許可的標準裡面那我們擔心的是說因為他跟那個垃圾混在一起那的確有一塊是在台塘的附近就是一開始清運但是那個也我們會把它列入可以移到遠一點點的地方去 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3354.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3380.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
部長如果不能再利用這些泥沙跟廢棄物要送到哪邊誰負責然後經費從哪裡來整體的處理期程大概要多久報告委員這是一個漫漫長路因為這種混在一起一定要有機器來再篩分的我們目前是預計當然這個災後可能要到10月底才會完全的告一段落我們現在是爭取立法院的預算希望在追加預算的時候明年開始來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3381.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3410.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
是 我們大力支持要趕快讓那個花蓮可以走完這些那環境部現在是否已經跟衛福部地方衛生局共同監測水質因為接下來要引用水土壤跟公共衛生這個監測會做多久是中央還是交給地方來做這個是我們中央跟地方一起合作那自來水的水質我們就是定期的一直不斷的在採驗當中那目前都是合格的好 謝謝那個彭部長麻煩我們的勞動部的彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3416.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3431.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
部長早大型災後現場的復原不是短跑是長期馬拉松防止過勞跟維護現場安全不是拖慢救災而是讓復原力可以更長久讓我知道這次去的人不見得事實上是在你管轄範圍可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3433.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3446.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我覺得勞動部還是要扮演一個很重要的角色因為我知道現在勞動 勞保局也啟動了保費補助傷病給付你剛剛都有談而且減輕受在勞工的負擔各部會也持續加強安全就是整個安全宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3448.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3471.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
有時候 現在有志工 又有公務體系 又有勞工 雖然身份跟法規適用不同 可是過勞就是過勞工作風險就是風險 所以想問部長 除了加班認定跟事後補助之外從勞動部的那個保障職安的經驗出發的話是否可由勞動部來提出具體可執行的跨部會的工作防範規範或制度指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3473.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3487.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
跟委員說明的確因為其實現在在災區蠻多投入到協助工作的其實都是志工他們並不那麼是以一個勞工的身份在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3489.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3513.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以其實比較不容易比方說用一個勞動法規的角度去對他們的各個去做很直接的框線但是我是認為我們可能可以葛部長你們也是比較知道在勞動這樣的一個因為在工作的條件當中雖然是志工可是會不會有過度工作的狀況所以是不是可以有個指引讓各部會可以去參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3514.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3528.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我想我們可以來請我們的治安署那跟這些相關的尤其是需要用人的單位那不管他用的是勞工還是現在其實是很多的志工來協助那怎麼讓大家比較能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3529.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3548.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
有一個概念就比方說在安全上面或者是在這個工作的勞動時間上面怎麼樣子其實還希望大家是在一個相對比較安全的範圍我覺得我們願意來跟這些相關業務單位來做一些討論報告也做了蠻多次謝謝洪部長那接下來麻煩我們的衛福部的石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3552.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3576.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
部長 災後第一週民間救護單位就統計上千人受傷那這次志工的保險的問題也確實暴露法律適用的灰色地帶以我們的災防法32條跟自願扶法第16條應由志工運用單位來替志工辦理意外事故的保險可是實際上很多人不是透過組織報名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3577.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3598.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
是现场登记的甚至是自发性投入的保险的涵盖率各有各的说法换句话说没有隶属单位就可能是落在没有保障的真空区这次花莲县政府提出说区域性纳保方案把光复箱整个都纳入为保险的范围卫福部也回应说 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3599.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3613.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
納入研議 請部長具體說明這會是未來救災的固定模式嗎還有這樣的區域性納保的機制可行嗎這些災區的保險的運用情況又是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3613.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3629.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好 很謝謝委員對於我們所有投入這個救災人員的這個權益的保障這個很重要那我們把它分三塊一個是由政府發動的所以就像我們昨天就發新聞稿是希望呢先來登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3630.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3656.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
登記之後由衛福部單位會診之後依照需求去統一調派那就會符合災害防救法第32條的規定我們就會為這些志工來加保所以他們就會受到保障這是第一個第二個如果是由組織的志工團體來的那就會按照志願服務法來本來就要幫他們加保所以最麻煩的就是散客就是他自行前往的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3657.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3673.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
可是現在沒有一個單位的話事實上基本上就沒有辦法認定所以我們也去詢問了保險工會如果是散課的部分目前還有兩種方式可以討論一種是用旅遊平安險附加醫療險傷害險的部分去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3674.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3698.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
另外一個就是他們另外也有一個屬於小規模只要5人以上就可以加保的那個叫做災害防救的保險商品所以部長是因為有時間關係所以是不是再把後續你剛剛提的東西提供給我們辦公室我們還是最建議就是說先登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3698.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3727.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有意愿来的因为我们就弄了一个窗口平台登录登录之后我们统一调派的时候我们就会替这些志工加保你再把那个给我部长每一件儿虐新闻都让人家很心痛任何对孩子暴力都应该要被严厉谴责彻底追究但我也要提醒保护孩子不是只靠谴责要把破掉的网补起来社工不是不能被检讨有疏失就该检讨可是制度的漏洞也要被看见 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3727.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3749.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
就這起桃園案例 醫衛服部的說明證明男童原本就是家防中心的服務個案社工從4月就介入了協助安排我們的心理諮商 身心科的治療還有親子教育媒體說社工只是在大廳陪玩並不正確那位陪伴者其實事實上是社工媒合的志工可是這類的案件常常 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3750.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3775.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
把社工當成事實上是箭靶士氣受到很大打擊所以昨天很多社工都跟我想說他們想離職尤其是兒保社工基於倫理原則就是不能對外說明所以最容易被指責部長你要不要趁這次答詢從部長的高度來回應這件事情我們當然絕對譴責兒童的暴力可是也要讓社工知道部長你是支持他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3775.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3794.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我們必須講從這個不論是這一次的這個災害發生其實第一線社工團體就主動的對我們表達他們願意投入救災所以才會有我們跟這個社工師全國全聯會的合作方案他們都是主動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3795.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3819.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
可是為何不也讓他出來講講話啊怎麼讓這麼多基層社工受到這麼大的大家都只想說那我不做那是不是你們政府自己來完成呢我們非常的支持第一線的社工因為不論是從自殺的房子或者是像這些脆弱家庭的關懷沒有這些基層社工的話基本上做不了事情我們什麼都沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3820.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3838.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那麼有很多事情是超乎我們能夠控制或設想那我們從每一件的這樣的事件當中來檢討看我們還有什麼在制度上面可以來努力 可以來彌補我覺得部長要挺社工否則的話我覺得很難讓基層社工能夠做得下去絕對 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3840.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3866.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
最後衛福部一群會要求地方做檢討報告 召開會議我上任以來就一直在三強調社安網不是社政的社安網社安網從來也不是社工一個人的網這些檢討會議到底有沒有真正檢討到背後的制度跟資源問題如果都不解決這問題的時候最後就是把社工推到前面去去擋著所有的子彈我覺得這很不適宜所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3868.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3884.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們在社交網第一期的計畫的時候從今年底就要到期了那衛福部現在即將提出2.0的計畫先前我辦公室討論的時候我也就提出了幾個計畫方向包含可不可以個案回推制度那個檢討越重大的兒女會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3885.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3912.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
召開的時候可不可以把每一個都主向就像當初我針對凱凱案這件事情發生提出了幾個修法和11項的相關的措施類似這樣子不是說這個只檢討單一的個案是要過頭來去看你的制度是不是出現了一個問題然後呢從這個制度要去改第二個就是釐清各單位的功能定位所謂網就是網絡去結合可是怎麼會事實上是各做各的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3912.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3940.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
而且各自不知道對方在做些什麼所以都沒有辦法連結所以我希望你們的社安網的這個2.0要提出來之前可不可以針對我剛才提出來現在提出來這三點能夠去做回應甚至應該要去檢核地方實際執行的情況因為的確很多東西不是中央可是中央制定法規之後那地方到底怎麼執行否則地方執行的很大落差的話基本上沒有辦法滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3942.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3947.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以最後是不是想問說你們後來現在演繹我當初提出來這三項的狀況到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3947.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3976.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我想這三點我們都會納入在我們未來這個社安網的2.0的時候會納入最重要的是對於未來我們對這些個案的review的時候一定秉持兩個原則是對事不對人第二個是對制度來進行檢討而不是對個人來檢討那麼這個不要讓這個辛苦付出的社工反而因為一些事件那麼早受打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3977.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4004.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
是 我覺得微博部也要提醒媒體因為這樣子的報導有時候對社工真的打擊非常大我要再三強調制度如果支撐不起來再努力的社工也撐不住我要求行政部門不要再把責任丟給單一的社工應該從重大惡劣個案回推制度檢討釐清社安網各單位的功能定位不要再重疊做重複的事情還要做無用的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4005.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4013.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
才能夠真正去補強而不是把責任放在社工身上是好再麻煩我們部長好謝謝委員謝謝林月琴委員下一位請陳昭之委員發言發言謝謝主席有請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4033.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4058.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
紅部長 勞動部紅部長 謝謝你好久不見各位好 大家都知道這個馬太安的這個災民他們現在是忙著做清理家園的工作那短期內很難恢復正常的這個工作我知道勞動部北分署有啟動 剛剛你也稍微點了一下天然災害臨時工作措施而且制裁這個預案及審當日核定的這個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4059.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4085.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
有職缺有登記那就盡快錄取那在光復鄉我知道也有設有這個臨時的服務台也主動派員深入到蒐融中心去了解這個民眾辦理的情形辦理登記的情形這些都做得很好但我想請教部長目前申請媒合的狀況如何是否能夠比照過去的災害經驗就是說又有一點以公待政的機制還是你認為現在的做法就是以公待政 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4085.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4107.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
跟文說明因為的確在前兩週其實在災區因為志工的數量非常的龐大所以其實這個階段我說在前面這個清理的階段其實有很多的需求確實是可能很多需要勞動力來協助的部分其實就是透過志工來處理所以目前的確對於來申請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4109.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4128.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們這個天安災害的臨時工作的計畫人數比較少目前大概50個人但是我們有預期可能進入到比方說後續的重建的階段如果志工的數量會降低一點的時候所以您支持是以公代政嗎一個比較長期的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4129.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4148.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
其實這個我們的這個範圍比以供範圍更廣那因為現在在講的所謂以供待政其實是依照這個設救法那他比較是針對低收入戶或中低收入戶的短期臨時工作那我們現在就是委員現在在螢幕上面看的這天然災害臨時工作計劃其實範圍是更廣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4151.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4168.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
相關的災害或災民其實都可以適用部長您講的是重點天災看似是彌平一切的自然力量可是很多研究跟報告指出來事實上來自天災的損害其實不是每個族群都是平等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4168.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4183.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
也要隨著階級啦性別啦甚至這個所謂的族群或成相差距每個人受到這個災害的衝擊是不太一樣的所以部長就是說請你提醒您就是說在推動這些臨時工作措施的時候能夠特別注意到脆弱族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4184.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4211.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
就是脆弱族群可以更多的保障跟支持好嗎我跟文說明因為我們其實現在是請我們的北分署那我們的這個育理的這個就業中心其實是主動的來聯繫包括地方政府包括鄉鎮公所因為現在確實現在還有一些混亂有的時候這個現場的公務員不一定有這麼多的餘裕來做這個虛工計畫的申請我們現在都是請我們的北分署主動來幫他協助完成這些文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4212.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4224.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那就是說你也剛才提到移工待任就是幫助這所謂的弱勢族群比較一個需要一個長期我們這可能不只是弱勢族群是現在的災民其實所有的都可以來跟我們申請這個臨時臨工計劃那主席麻煩請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4233.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4255.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
謝謝市部長 那我就一邊講了接下來從政之路會很漫長那台灣人真的很暖國軍救難隊 志工還有這個在地鄉親都全部投入那大家都希望這個因為物資跟善款也不斷湧進來那我們都希望這個能夠用到真的用在災民身上你剛剛也稍微提了一下不過我還是想請教部長目前這個政災基金會募了多少款項 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4256.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4273.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們統計到昨天的話是28萬多筆那一共超過10億因為超過了目標嘛那是不是可以簡單請你說明一下你這個優先次序是怎麼來做的你剛剛有分的大概三項啦那優先次序的思考是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4273.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4294.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
跟委員報告當然第一個是那個慰問金這個是我們法定要給的那就是死亡失蹤跟重傷所以這個是第一塊我們優先去發放的那第二個是生活支持的部分生活支持所以生活支持就是我們過去像0403我們最多的善款是發 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4295.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4317.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
是用在那個房屋的重建但是現在比較這一次不是房屋的整個倒塌受損比較沒有那麼嚴重但是清理很麻煩那個淤泥所以我們是用家園支持清理支持的部分我可以這樣說嗎因為你已經目到超過預期目標嘛所以算是可以同步在做對那這些這些都是現在在發放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4317.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4328.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
就是現在暫時服務同時在做這些事情預期大概就是5億目前已經轉過來的大概是4.7億除了募款截止日你沒有設截止日嗎有有有有我們是對我們從9月25到10月24號一個月那部長這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4335.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4351.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
會不會用在馬太安居民的一個災民的硬體設施重建可不可以用在幫助災民整修房子還是只能說重建跟重構呢因為為什麼這樣問因為賴總統前幾天他說一戶要房屋修復救助金一戶20萬那請問這個20萬元是來自你的震災基金嗎就是來自你的震災基金這樣子喔就是一戶有35萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4363.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4378.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
從你這邊拿就是10萬是從那個內政部的那個特別預算25萬從這個基金政災基金所以總統可以自己決定政災基金怎麼用沒有這個也是我沒有說否定但是政災基金是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4379.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4405.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
也是討論完之後其實我老實說了就是說震災基金你一定要有個委員會在管理這些嘛那我們也知道其實20萬也不是足夠的啦那剛剛你有提到就是說到底誰來決定這怎麼用好那我明白了就是賴總統講的其實就是來自震災基金啦那我再請部長回來就是太平村跟大同村因為他們受創嚴重所以這個國土署有進場評估是不是要遷村 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4407.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4426.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那請問這個善款可以用在協助遷村嗎我們過去是有那個中繼屋就是有兩種啦一種我們本來的項目裡面有一種是屬於叫做安遷啦一個是租屋啦這個都是比較短期的長期來講如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4429.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4456.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
如果是千村因為那個整個都等於是要去建建房子對對對 所以部長我就提出來先想想看因為他們在評估啦這也是兩個村嘛最嚴重那另外就是我們想要再講一下雖然我信任是部長但是我還是請公開說明一下對社會這些算款你有沒有公開明細會不會資訊透明這個非常重要因為大家來自全國的愛心捐款我們大家都希望能夠用在災民身上所以我們最後會看到這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4457.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4479.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
資料 對嗎 對 對 全部都會公開好那今天好多個部會的首長都在這裡我也說今天等於是大觀雲集三個部長在這裡我也希望大家能夠一起聽見地方的聲音衛福部你現在有提供剛剛有提到7加7的這個住宿補貼但這個性質比較像安心計畫因為目的是一個比較緊急的一個避難好像有意願的民眾不多不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4480.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4498.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我想特別分享東華大學民主發展及這個社工系的黃教授黃英華教授講他剛剛提到中繼安置他應該是災後安置的一個決策核心因為他的精神不說臨時住一下而是說要給族人跟這個居民一個妥適安全地方讓他們凝聚社群 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4499.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4517.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
然後他們一起討論重建一起清理家園因為這樣才能讓災民在比較有尊嚴的情況下生活而且能夠增加族群的韌性甚至把災民納入這個重建的這個決策核心因為部長對部落而言傳統部落的組織跟教會系統是重建的核心力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4517.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4546.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那對於平地的社區來說村里長 這個當地頭人 宮廟都是非常重要基礎但是目前的政策比較停留在這個安置旅館的安置或者物資的發放比較忽略了社區的原有的支持網絡因為如果你再把它分散安置的話那可能反而切斷這個社會的連結讓脆弱家庭比較就更容易遇到大風險我強調的就是說重要決策是不是也有災民的這個加入參與那當然要跨部會啦要跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4547.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4564.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
部長就是說我就是提醒一下就是那個原來的族群的網絡他們的韌性很重要那我想請教你跟委員報告在過去上上一次0403花蓮地震的時候我們也有一部分這個善款去協助他們恢復那個原鄉的那個活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4565.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4590.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
注意到他們族群 社區營造的不要太多的改變部長那接下來請再給我一兩分鐘部長那個醫療資源的分配這個板橋醫院的遭傷案本來是有一所499床的大型區域醫院但是後來因為考慮到進行政策調整還有整個營運狀況他撤案了那選擇撤回那我要先肯定就是說健保署的政策因為您去年就說健保會限制那個病床特約病床的那個數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4591.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4611.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那不一定全是開放比如說一個一家醫院他該500床那你是分年慢慢的開放可能分到三到五年的時間這個是我肯定很正確一步為什麼呢因為醫療資源有限應該配置在真正缺乏地區而不是在醫療資源已經很豐富的雙北雙北這個蓋大樓加病床那但是目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4612.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4635.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
部長現在還允許加蓋的增加病床有1.2萬床我應該講的沒有錯吧靠近這個數字請問部長這些你有沒有盤點這個病床的分佈合理嗎有沒有開始全面檢討就是說你是不是要往真正缺乏的地方偏鄉啦或是一些急救量能不足的地方你不能在社區這個都會區的醫院繼續重複投資啊你要不要重新盤點一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4635.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4650.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
既然你做的第一件事我非常支持委員的這個這個方向是我完全支持所以現在有兩個一個就是會盤點資源折優特約的概念不能都擠在 缺的還是缺第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4651.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4673.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
你要在新擴床的或者是要新蓋醫院的你要這個醫院要符合四大要件你現在有權利做這件事我知道你願意做這個是對大家都是好醫院也好對民眾也好最後一張請你看像這樣圖我9月底去參觀這個台北國際照顧博覽會你看國衛院國衛院是全國最高的研究機構你看它的攤位那麼大那麼寬敞左邊這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4676.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4689.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
四個簡單的這個展示板內容平凡兩個值班人就坐在座位上滑手機我們進去的也不理 出來也不理但沒有招呼你看旁邊那個我弄小一點的你看看人家攤位小小很熱鬧內容豐富 積極招呼啊整個成為鮮明的對比啊柏中你覺得這樣國務院剛符合這個國家級最高的研究專業機構嗎謝謝委員對我們部的肯定我們那部的攤位還不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4705.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4716.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那國衛院因為他可能他的屬性上他的那個學術研究為主啦你不去展覽你就是要熱情你去我跟你看他們根本不理我們啊不理誰都沒關係走進去出來沒有人理他們在滑手機啊我會來了解然後讓他能夠更貼近現在是你的權責是不是好好這個展覽規劃你要報名你看房間這麼大反正可能很有錢啊你看人家都小小一個可是很熱鬧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4736.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4764.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這樣你叫我怎麼審查國務院的預算啦好好你同意吧我會來了解我親自去照相照回來給你看喔好好吧 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝陳昭之委員接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請彭部長環境部彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4768.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4785.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
黃委員好部長好部長還有我們洪部長還有我們的石部長其實都非常辛苦在這一次的這個馬太安的這個災難當中其實你們都有到現場去那我首先先請教就是說彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4786.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4803.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
最近媒體有針對這個烏山頭水庫水面型太陽光電的這一個在媒體上面有報導那這個報導上面有寫就是說當地的居民看到就是說可能這個光電業者在清洗這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4804.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4828.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
光電板那不清楚到底他是用藥劑呢或者是只有用清水清洗那我想請教這個部長針對於我們這個水面上的這樣的一個光電板不論是在海面或者是在水面就是類似這樣的一個光電板一般清洗都用什麼樣的用什麼清潔劑或者只是用純水下去清洗 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4829.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4852.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好 謝謝委員那個我所知道是用清水啦可是這個專業的是能源署署長要不要他的報告事實上用清水就可以那通常不清洗的話用自然的落雨降雨也可以清洗那人工清洗可能過一段時間會讓它保持比較好的效率所以不會用任何的清潔劑或是藥劑去清洗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4853.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4873.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
不會也沒有需要是好那我想請教部長針對這個烏山頭水庫水面型的這個光電板就是說這個民眾質疑我們看到這個最近的新聞就是民眾質疑這個可能對於水質會有影響那這個烏山頭水庫也供應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4874.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4900.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個民眾的用水那我想請教就是說針對這部分我們的這個用水是不是有長期的這個監控就是環境部針對這個水的部分是不是有做監測報告委員其實第一個是我們發生南部光電板那個大量在滯洪池上面毀壞的事件其實環境部就針對有毀壞的光電板都去測了那測了5次都是零減粗所以我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4901.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4928.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我们可以解释的这个问题那第二个是这个水库本身我所知道是能源署他们有一起跟水利的单位一起检测一年检的五次都是零检出都是安全无虞的所以我在这边是不是也请能源局或者是我们劳动部这边针对于我们这个水库上面的光电是不是会造成水质的影响我觉得应该是要更透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4929.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4945.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
而且適時的也要跟當地的社區或者是這個當地的這個居民可能要適時的一個溝通要不然我覺得以而傳而其實又會造成大家對這個光電可能又會有一些誤解是不是可以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4946.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4969.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
是的 是的委員那這是能源署應該做的我們會依照我們的指示來處理那麼一方面我們也會公告我們水質檢測的資料所以你們現在是沒有公告嗎還是在網路上面就看得到我們現在就是有檢測但是因為目前就是這個是烏山手水利管理局他們那邊在處理那我們可以把資料取過來公告在我們能源署的網站上 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4970.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4994.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我希望就是說這樣的水質是不是有異常或者是有變化我覺得應該讓這個資訊能夠更透明讓當地的居民甚至想要了解的人能夠更清楚的知道目前這個水面型的光電板會不會造成水質的影響我覺得應該要去適時的把這樣的一個資訊更透明的反應出來呈現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4996.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5015.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
也謝謝委員因為其實據我所知烏山頭水庫是它的集水區的面積是1000多公頃這個只有11公頃只佔了一點多%那當然啦這個在水面型的光電是全世界都有的不是只有台灣特別那個水庫特別有那我們以環境部的立場未來像這樣的一個水面上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5015.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5030.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們會嚴格的監督包含了未來的環評未來是不是需要環評我們在跟能源署都在研商當中我們是以保護環境為主然後未來的這個水質檢測我們也會要求他們能夠盡量的提出讓他公開透明讓大家都可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5031.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5060.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
因為也許是不了解所以對這個可能有一些疑慮所以我希望就是說所有的資訊應該是要更公開更透明不要造成民眾的一個恐慌尤其我剛剛問了這個清洗這個光電板到底是有用清潔劑或者是只是用清水下去清洗我覺得應該是要讓這個資訊能夠更透明而不是讓這個民眾自己想像就是說他是不是用了什麼樣的清潔劑然後整個污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5061.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5074.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這個水庫的水源好這一點我希望能夠做到就是說把所有的資訊能夠更透明更公開好好不好好謝謝謝謝部長請回座那接下來我請這個衛福部部長有請石部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5082.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5106.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
部長好 部長這個針對這次光復鄉的這個災難我想請教就是說昨天大家很不捨就是這個挖土機的這個林老闆因為這個感染然後過世那就讓我們剛剛部長我聽到這個部長在回覆林月琴委員的這個這個詢談的時候有特別提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5107.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5131.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們如果自己傘客來志願服務的這些志工也許可能沒有什麼樣的一個保障那我是不是可以請部長因為台灣是一個這個風災或地震非常多的一個地方那也許可以透過這一次的這個救災的經驗那會有一個這個流程可能就把它制度化其實我覺得這一次的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5133.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5158.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個災害發生第一時間我覺得滿感動就是慈濟他們的動作都是比政府都還要快那也許也可以參考慈濟他們怎麼做到那在不足的部分我們未來針對我覺得應該是要更制度啦不要因為他去協助救災然後又因為這個受傷然後感染死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5159.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5182.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
不只是這一件因為有很多是因為這個被可能銳利的東西刺傷那甚至有的是那個橫紋肌溶解症就又住進加護病房所以我覺得這部分未來不論是這個團體的志工或者是散課的志工我覺得都應該有一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5184.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5199.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是不是可以請部長先針對這部分跟委員報告確實從這一次的事件裡面我們以慈濟為例因為它是長期就是志工團體所以他們都有保險這個沒有問題所以我們未來應該把這個變成制度化 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5200.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5216.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
未來我們在第一刻時間就建立平台等於是由主管機關募集招募這個志工的概念然後我們再來為這些臨時性的志工來做投保的保障這個我們把它制度化 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5216.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5235.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那现在我们就已经公开未来就是先登记登记之后我们就有资料那就可以帮他投保然后再去按照我们需求的地方去调派那这样会让整个志工投入救灾也好或复原重建也好更制度化也更有组织性是 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5237.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5258.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我希望就是說透過這次的救災能夠把這個所有的志工甚至的一些保障可能要更制度化那其實我也想請教就是說那這個挖土機行的這個林老闆事情發生了也過世那我不知道說政府針對這一部分因為他也是志工嘛那政府針對這部分有沒有什麼樣的一個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5259.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5273.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
甚至那一位因為橫紋肌溶解症然後住進家戶病房甚至還有其他的因為擔任志工受傷的這些人我們政府或者是衛福部這邊針對這些人有沒有什麼樣的一個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5275.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5289.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
當然在這個醫療的部分本來健保的部分就有cover這個不是比較不是大的問題那麼重要的還是這個死者這個我們真的很遺憾所以我們也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5291.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5314.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
比照給予死亡慰問金20萬就是在公務預算能夠處理的部分因為基金它有它的使用規定它一定是天然災害致死所以它沒有辦法去符合上款的運用但是在公務機關的部分本與我們的權責之內來給予我們最高的慰問 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5315.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5338.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
當然最重要還是希望大家都能夠注意所以我們在這個期間我們就已經提出說裝備很重要裝備的保護 飲食的保護 清潔的保護這些髒污的東西特別有時候我們會有一些小傷口它就可能因此而造成蜂窩性組織炎造成敗血症 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5340.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5366.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個特別要再藉這個機會提醒因為現在還是有志工會前進災區還是再一次的提醒請大家注意自己的健康的狀態所以剛剛部長講的就是說不論是在災區可能要做一些宣導針對這些志工也許我剛剛講的更制度化如果說你有有造冊或者是志工來了之後先做一些宣導我覺得這個也是非常重要自我檢核一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5366.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5389.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
就是先然後該注意什麼樣的事項我覺得可以事先做一些預防我覺得這個是未來應該針對這一次的災難之後我們應該要進入建立更制度化的一個救災的方式另外我看到就是說其實現在陸陸續續還是有志工進到災區裡面去協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5390.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5417.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那我也希望就是說衛福部這邊不論是透過媒體的宣導或者是你們在當地的宣導應該讓這些志工能夠知道就是說自我保護其實也是非常重要你要協助災區恢復正常的生活那當然就是說自我保護其實也非常的重要我覺得宣導這一項我覺得應該是衛福部這邊還要再加強的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5418.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5440.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們那個羅一鈞署長他有拍一個這個這個宣導那個反應不錯我們再持續強化好那其實這段期間大家都非常辛苦然後也感謝所有的這個部會都能夠第一時間到現場去協助然後那真的大家都辛苦了謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝黃委員發言謝謝部長接下來請劉建國委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5449.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5470.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
好 謝謝召委 有請洪部長 還有石部長石部長柏定宇先生的授意你給他講一下 好我先請教洪部長啦 剛剛就繼續黃委員所講的這事情我想這麼多的熱心的志工基本上都一直還前往花蓮災區嘛 因為大家心疼花蓮這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5471.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5491.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
然後當然這個季將軍也特別提到說其實還是有缺志工那當然是比較屬於專業性的這樣志工嘛但其實還有很多地方還是沒有清得很乾淨啦所以很多人都還是會利用假日時間持續再前往災區嘛但是我們這幾天發生的是漢市就是挖土機的這個老闆 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5492.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5507.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
他本身因為投入到這個工作裡面其實他今天如果沒有投入到這個災區他持續做他的生意持續去執行他的業務他有錢可以賺但是萬一也是因為意外來致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5509.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5524.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
跟他去投入這個災區從事志工沒有領辦勞請的情況之下結果他受到勞保的這樣的一個死亡的給付是落差蠻大的部長你有掌握這個狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5525.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5545.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
跟委員報告的確因為林老闆他因為救災然後受傷感染離世這個大家非常遺憾確實我們現在部長你可以直接回答我像林老闆這個狀況他把老闆他現在已經死亡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5546.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5569.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他就是以勞保的普通事故死亡他可以領幾個月他的家屬可以領幾個月跟文說明我們會今天其實我們的勞保局跟治安署會進一步會到會來直接主動的拜訪家屬那我們會來謹慎起見我們會再進一步確認林老闆的救災行為是不是單純的志工行為還是有其他的這個勞務關係因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5571.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5587.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
必須還是要必須很審慎的確認這件事情才能確認比如說他是不是用災保還是只是單純的只有老保相關的這部分對 他如果是單純老保就是普通事故死亡嘛他的家屬就是領35個月嘛對不對 他如果是職業災害死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5588.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5603.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
就45個月 差10個月如果按照投保薪資最高45,800就差了40幾萬這樣的認知會讓我想台灣民眾是很難理解這樣的邏輯我去救災結果這樣失望35個月我如果在職業災害死亡我可以領到45個月 差了10個月 差40幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5612.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5639.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
这个逻辑上是讲不过去的我的意思说因为这的确是涉及到比方在目前的灾保里面如果是单纯的志工行为其实因为就没有不在灾保能够去给付的范围里面但如果你是有一个比方说雇佣关系指挥关系或者是劳务对价的行为的话在有这个前提的话那可以使用雇佣指挥对价劳务对价的行为那雇佣显然看起来是没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5640.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5661.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
勞務對象也沒有那指揮算不算我們可能今天要來跟他的家屬確認這樣子好 不是跟家屬確認吧我想在整個現場的指揮應該可以馬上去理解一些這些狀況對 所以我們今天也我們就會直接去來跟林老闆這邊來去林老闆的相關的親友來去確認他的這個救災的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5662.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5682.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
確切的屬性是什麼當然我們現在從媒體上面從比較初步的訊息上面他們說這是一個志工的部分可是我們謹慎起見我們還是要跟他做一個這樣的確認剛剛部長回憶我是有三個這個樣態第一個你說你特別提到指揮這指揮的定義指揮或者是因為他有勞務的對價所以產生指揮的關係這樣子如果沒有勞務的對價 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5686.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5716.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
就沒有指揮的關係就是變成說如果是單純的自公行為的話那的確目前就法規上面就不適用於債保我是要特別提醒部長啊這個事情我想我們可以盡量的協助要用盡最大的力量對不對我想對林老闆的家屬而言都是一個我們必須要做的事情這是為什麼我們今天要主動希望能夠去拜訪林老闆的家裡然後跟他做最謹慎的了解的原因也告訴他相關的權益我們其實也是基於一個權力協助的態度啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5716.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5743.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好 所以這個應該可以儘快嘛一個星期內可以跟委員會做一個說明吧是 我想我們今天就會去了但是我提到如果萬一這三個樣態通通沒有的情況之下我們還可以寫出什麼一站在勞動部保護勞工的立場保護勞工到災區去積極的救人救災的情況之下不應該跟職業災害的這樣的一個這個離別有明顯這樣的落差勞動部這邊可以做怎樣的補強當然我們可能還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5746.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5747.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
没有对不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5748.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5775.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
對 現在就是有勞保有勞保的就是勞保的這個普通的這個死亡給付的部分目前還是會有可是就像剛剛委員說的的確跟災保上面因為投保薪資跟他的月數這個可以請領的月數還是 確實會有一個落差對 所以我才想說萬一這個落差十個月差了十幾萬勞動部這邊可以如何來協助保障勞工去救災反而沒有辦法得到像這些災害這樣最高的理賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5776.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5803.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
勞動部這邊有沒有辦法我想我們會來 再來看一下我們還有相關哪些可以做慰問的這個來支持跟提供好 我們希望一個星期內啦 好不好給委員會做一個說明跟報告好 那部長 市部長 對為什麼在情理上呢 理由很簡單啦因為我們政府機關還有相關的一些單位基本上都有一些志工的團體那平常我們就給這些志工團體有一些一定程度的保障那反而這種臨時的志工 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5804.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5820.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這就很奇怪了而且一封一直進去一直進去坦白講這重新制度還蠻長的現階段可能再10天也未必喔雖然當時總統下令到中秋節以前嘛對不對那現在已經過了但實際上看到很多地方還是需要志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5821.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5848.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那這個中間我們說他因為他是臨時的他是一封封進來的所以沒有辦法去做怎樣的一個處理我覺得講這句話是有問題的啦因為畢竟多數的志工還是會前進到這個地方指揮所去接受分配那只要他一旦接受分配工作其實就可以有做任何的登記作業那之前進來他可以馬上登記馬上接受分配為什麼我們沒有給他一個可以臨時性的一些保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5849.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5871.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這衛福部應該可以馬上來做這樣的思考嗎我們來剛剛提到來研議的就是往這個方向按照那個災害防救法來就是先登記啦登記之後照冊然後再指派工作那這樣我們就有這個等於是我們去增調的概念去替他加保我理解部長你速度都很快的嘛因速度很快其實今天就可以開始做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5872.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5886.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們醫療的部分我們先做了嘛我們昨天就發新聞稿了說要起 要先來定期嘛定期後我們就照著這是醫療部分嘛醫療製工啦但是剛才說那種藝娃的部分可以去處理啊他轉播可能還要回到各個各個主管機關因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5887.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5914.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
各自調動的人不一樣嗎不不不 你有這個你可能可以打起來啦我們不會說啦 保險的保我們建一個模式出來給其他部會參考你只要登高一戶我相信很多的保險公司也願意配合因為大家都會有愛心嘛所以這個其實如果今天可以建立起來今天到花蓮災區的有去接受這個指揮調度分配工作的只要有登記 你的保障我就馬上給你部長可以承諾我嗎 可以馬上做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5915.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5925.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們馬上跟保險公司協調 保費什麼什麼 把它弄出來對啦 今天就可以開始做了 好不好好 來 副部長請回 副部長再請留下那個財東華人的政災基金會成都島有來嗎有這次0923的馬太安這個顏色火的災害我想對衛福部還是一個很大的挑戰因為部長你剛剛上來 我覺得挑戰什麼 信任度 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5939.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5965.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
很多的民眾想要捐款但是費私糧啦所以很多的就直接到災區所以災區不只志工還有連捐款的單位都很多他就想直接面對面罷他的上環給這個受災戶嘛也了解這實際狀況所以這個人數會很多啦那第二件事情你看去年0403的地震為例為何不是穆德16億喔其中6.9億是分別給花蓮縣政府但至今還有1.6億未核銷怎麼會這樣這個數字正確吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5969.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5988.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
正確嘛 對不對然後花蓮縣政府又自從穆德7.9億的上緩至今還剩4.2億怎麼會這樣然後七年前七年前 107年的0206的花蓮地震衛福部穆德的是4.4億也全部交付給花蓮縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5989.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6017.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
然後依照公益勸募條例第六條政府機關有上級機關者因於年度終了後兩個月內將辦理情形函報上級機關被查現在七年了七年了花蓮縣政府僅公佈2022年到2022年的善緩支出大項沒有將所有的辦理情形報衛福部被查怎麼會有這種事情博士你覺得這個情形多嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6020.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6032.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這個七年前的這一個已經把使用情形是已經有報來了但是我們要進行那個會計師他什麼時候報才會正式公告 應該很快吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6035.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6061.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
剛報完而已嘛他再會講是在英語年度終了後的兩個月內嘛所以他足足拖了幾年足足拖了幾年可以這樣嗎是不是我可以跟您報告一下那的確我們有去查調就是當時應該是107所以108的隔年的23月之前那個花蓮縣政府有提報他前一年度所有的捐款那也包括了什麼時候報出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6064.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6091.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
呃好我事後再查一下可以跟委員報告今天在我一拍這個你還可以事後查你資料應該都備齊了吧而且是107年到現在的事情啊是我已經查過了所以中午之前可以跟委員報告我再提供一個新聞給部長參考啦齁0403花蓮重建路至今被貼紅單黃單的建路落成補強到現在連一棟都沒有補連一棟都沒有做喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6093.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6106.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
結果花蓮縣政府手上有衛福部的6.9億以及自己募款的7.9億加起來他目前為止 沙考 矽考他還剩下5.8億喔還剩下5.8億然後現在貼紅單 黃單的每一棟建築物自先到現在連一棟都還沒有做補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6114.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6135.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
跟委員報告過去我們這一些那個上款都是為了要能夠重塑發放所以都會先預撥給地方政府然後之後他再來核銷一個個核銷但是確實在地方政府的執行上有落差所以我們今年的做法都是由我們直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6136.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6161.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個受理所以才會配合整個行政院在花蓮設這個一站式服務直接受理然後登錄資料包含那個帳戶然後我們就直接匯款所以我們也了解到過去執行上在花蓮縣政府的執行上有落差所以我們今年的話會改變這個做法來直接提供服務我只是要提醒部長這些上款早已經給了花蓮縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6162.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6185.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
然後你正在基金會基本上衛務部都有這個監督管理運用的相關的辦法要去依照這辦法去做執行怎麼有可能拖到現在一年多有這些善款還借這麼多善款連一棟貼黃單的建物到現在都沒有處理到時候又有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6187.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6216.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
對 誰要負責誰要負責所以請部長我剛剛講的一二三大致上這三個事情我覺得基金會正在基金也一定要有一定程度的責任喔這上緩如果他到年度終了兩個月內都沒有提出來有辦法讓他拖這麼久然後有些事情該做反而都沒有做然後基金會也都沒有跟你積極的一些作為衛生部也沒有善盡監督資責的情況之下我想這到時候誰的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6217.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6229.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
該戶的通通跑不了 好不好 請部長注意這個事情然後也是希望一周內可以提議給委員會做這樣的一個說明跟報告 好不好謝謝 好 謝謝張委員 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝石部長接下來邀請邱正軍委員發言主席好 我們一樣請我們衛福部石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6245.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6272.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
有請衛福部時務部長部長好我想請問你10月2號在苗栗發生隨機砍人的這個案子這一個人刑滿處以不到半年就拿刀在街上砍三個人那其中兩個還是國小的女童那這名嫌犯十年前就在同一個地方同樣的手法砍人造成四人受傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6273.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6294.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
被判9年多的刑期上次入獄也是因為隨機殺人而入獄但當然他確實有吸毒的記錄也有毒品的反應那也有暴力的前科等於就是說他是那種吸毒又殺人的這種高風險個案那這個案子部長你應該有基本的了解吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6295.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6322.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
跟委員報告確實他是因為殺人未遂入獄那麼也服刑8年多他是服刑期滿出獄那因為他過去有這個吸毒的前科所以我們在他我知道記得他是3月23號出獄我們3月28號我們苗栗的毒品防治中心就把他列入個案管理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6322.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6339.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我知道 你先聽我講這個案子全國關注 社會政經可是我發現中央部會好像都是刻意在降溫我們衛福部在這個整個過程中目前來講就只有在防毒這個部分來做這個角色 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6341.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6361.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那沒有人任何沒有其他任何可以介入或預防甚至提早預警的這個機制嗎我要問的是這個跟我們報告因為我們在我們部的業務裡面大概在社安網裡面會關注兩個議題一個當然就是物質濫用的問題一個是有沒有這個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6362.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6389.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
的問題這個是我們就可以來處理因為他這個算是矯正無效然後回到社會上然後等到這個爆炸了之後現在大家才關心這個問題那當然我們根據矯正署的回應這個人在服刑期間暴力打架屢次違規矯正署說難收矯正之效那請問部長從監獄到出獄衛福部有沒有接到任何通報那個矯正署通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6391.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6409.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
你說出獄的時候從他在裡面的時候在監獄裡面到出獄這一段時間衛福部有沒有收到通告在入獄的時候在服刑中當然是沒有所以我請問這個要打架幾次要幾次暴力要殺幾個人才需要通報呢這個我們過去沒有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6415.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6435.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那他10年前就砍人了嘛那在監獄裡面他表現又是這樣結果未達標準這個標準是不是有必要檢討我現在講的這個重點當然今天不是叫你說來扛全部的責任我只是說是不是我們的機制上我們部會跨部會的這個部分聯繫上是不是出了問題這個我才 這才是我們要討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6436.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6449.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那服刑期間這個人這個有長期的要飲食那衛福部這個有沒有提供任何的要飲治療在他出獄之後我們有提供這個戒指我是在裡面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6452.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6467.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們在那個矯正器官裡面也有提供介質就是那個替代有心理做輔導那些都有做嘛所以它在裡面那如果說它這樣子算是正常出來了所以你們是認為它是沒有問題出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6468.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6495.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
看這個個案他分別在6月7月都還有驗過那個驗尿那是沒有毒品反應的對啦因為他上次我要講重點就是說他上次是因為殺人而入獄那當然因為他有吸毒可是我們防毒中心他追蹤他的原因不是因為他殺人而是他吸毒對所以這個問題當然我也覺得我們社工在這個訪視的時候這個他是一個人去還是有警察單位陪同 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6497.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6523.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我們一般是沒有絕對有警察人員陪同啦對啊 所以我認為這個我們社工的安全也很重要這雖然是發生了這個隨機砍人可是我們在訪我也接到很多社工的這個陳情他們其實在這個訪視這種案例的時候其實是會怕的而且我們部裡面這個部分可能要再做一個調整那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6525.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6539.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
獨衛中心他可能只是驗尿他不是看個人他也不管你什麼殺人不殺人對不對因為他有這個案子有這種傾向我覺得我們是不是要再來做一個更明確的一個控制加強跟警政之間的聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6541.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6554.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
對啊 因為社安網我知道都有通報它只能防家暴 防自殺但防不了隨即殺人 對不對你們把最危險的人放在這個網外就已經直接放生了這個是非常危險的像這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6556.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6584.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
在獄中我剛剛講這些狀況我希望你們跟矯正署這邊都能來做一個聯繫不是說他沒有精神疾病或者是怎麼樣我們就把他就不管了而且我發現還有一件事情你可能回去要了解一下就是他在你們在這個他出獄這段時間好像也有他們好像也採了幾次尿你們有去訪視幾次嗎他也有通報然後回去採尿 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6584.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6593.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
可是它兩次好像兩次還是三次的狀況是沒有毒品反應的但是這一次據我了解它是有陽性反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6594.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6621.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以這個在檢視上是不是漏了什麼你懂我意思嗎這個我認為他是出來就開始吃啦應該是有這種習慣他還是戒不了所以這個部分我們毒味中心雖然去採了尿但是現在的人很聰明啦他那個他不用他要在訪視之前他可能前十天二十天他都可以停止嘛對不對 然後你也採不到啊所以這個問題我覺得是一個很大的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6623.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6651.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
請部長回去然後我講了就是第一個我就整理整個事情第一個漏洞就是一個人在獄中一直打架然後暴力違規然後矯正署自己也這樣做了一個評論說難收剿制所以在這個部分我覺得衛福部必須要有心理師馬上介入而且要回報要通報那第二個漏洞就是出獄權有沒有做風險評估這個他在裡面狀況也不是很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6652.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6660.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
他在裡面算是壞學生這種的你還讓他出來你們也沒有做追蹤這個就是第二個漏洞那第三個漏洞就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6661.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6682.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們必須要有強制通報的一個機制那我這樣講今天就要求三件事情第一修法啦衛福部應該推動高風險個案強制通報的一個制度把暴力加要飲這些符合高風險的者納入這個法定通報的範圍那第二個列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6684.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6708.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
繁聚暴力前科要引背景者應納入社安網追蹤名單並分級管理這個要做分級啦那我們的社工才會安全然後定期的評估那第三中央要建立跨部會資料共享平台矯正署衛福部還有地方衛生局警政單位必須同步掌握我們這些出獄的風險評估與移交的報告這個部長可以做到嗎可以可以我們都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6709.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6719.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我們跟矯正法務部來討論我希望你趕快把這個事情把它完成那另外關於馬太安溪的這個震災基金我想先請你看兩張圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6722.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6746.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這一張是行政院的宣傳圖寫著中央三方案另一張是震災基金會通告公告在網站上的資料截至十月七日子合計撥款四億七千三百六十五萬元至衛福部的這個帳戶裡面那你們報告寫說家園支持方案妥善運用各界對震災基金繪製善款那請問部長這兩張圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6748.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6770.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
跟你們的報告是講同一件事嗎是同一筆錢嗎 同一個生活支持這邊有一個都是針對馬太安溪艷澀湖的這個災後補助同樣的日期同樣的金額同樣的對象但只有一個差別行政院說中央加碼衛福部說這個跟基金會說是人民捐款所以部長是誰在說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6772.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6790.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這有一部分是屬於中央的那個預算那為什麼他基金會裡面編出來的錢都一模一樣會問金的部分那個是由特別預算來你注意看我剛剛兩張圖回去再另外一張基金會跟我們公告出來是一模一樣的所以到底是誰錢少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6792.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6815.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
你說中央有負擔一部分對 負擔一部分可是沒有啊 他為什麼他捐款的證明都已經寫出來了前一張的話委員這邊右邊有三筆款項有一個10萬的未住金 家園未住金那我們總統到花蓮去講說要加碼那中央加碼20萬元的那一刻就在說謊了不是嗎那20萬元在裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6816.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6842.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
就是在那個家園的這個那是人家 那是災民的那是我們老百姓的善款怎麼會變成中央加碼呢我想這個都是衡量所有的這個災民人民捐錢是希望啦受災的鄉親而不是讓行政院拿去印圖卡開記者會拿人民的善心演政府的良心那請你回去告訴我們總統還有我們行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6843.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6861.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
政府要宣財是可以的但至少要說真話你不能把我們老百姓的這些善款然後變成你們的功勞好像你們做了多大的事情一樣這個不能抹煞這些熱心的老百姓有良心的老百姓有愛心的老百姓這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6862.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6886.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所有的善款都會充分的運用到那麼需要的對象我現在不是說你用在不對的地方我只是說你們在宣傳的時候不能拿著老百姓捐的錢說你政府給的啊對不對所有的預算的來源我們都會把它標註的很清楚謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝這個求證局委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6892.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6897.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那我先做一下宣告 待會蘇清泉委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘有請蘇清泉委員好 謝謝主席請施部長請施部長跟我們石耀署今天是副署長嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6917.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6937.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
主委好我要問邱振基問苗栗的我要問這個屏東的來這個大腸啦大腸一下子說一萬多公斤一下子說一千多公斤到底是幾公斤啦 不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6939.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6952.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
跟委員報告我們把它分成兩個啦一個是去查這一家這個公司啊這一家百威公司現場就把它封存的還沒有流出去的就封存的封存的一共是一萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6957.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6972.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
12604公斤那個是都還在倉庫還沒有出去的那個就直接封存掉的12604公斤然後流出去的還有一些還沒有真的賣掉的我們就讓他下架的所以下架的是2430公斤 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6976.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6981.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
然後真的已經賣出去的就是784公斤對 這些大的大腸都是從屠宰場來的嗎還是病死豬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6989.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7004.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
因為我們有做這個整個產製銷整個一貫的追蹤溯源所以它的源頭呢那麼經過這個農業部的證實它並不是來自於病死豬因為我們最怕的就是病死豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7006.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7025.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們這個台北市公司都設到台北市工廠就給你設到屏東然後社會成本跟污染都在屏東我們屏東還背這個爛名跟罵名還有污名所以這個我想沒辦法接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7027.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7047.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個養豬業者都是合法合規的健康豬這個也有被證實因為而且是國產豬啦所以這個豬是健康的所以是在屠宰場拖出來的後面的加工過程主要這個黑心廠商是加工加工 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7050.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7061.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
雙氧水嘛他用工業用的雙氧水雙氧水是可以用我們要用食品級的雙氧水他用的是工業級的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7063.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7076.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那如果用漂白水跟韓綠那是很恐怖的那是H2O2不是漂白水 過氧化氫我們吃了就死了 沒死也換掉你食藥署到底是有的有的沒的補貼不準 一個人在輸單銅 一個人在吃食品每天在出事情 出事情的機率不算勞動部所以喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7091.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7094.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以都要沾沾沾沾的我看到這 我現在看到很難看他每天在吃在吃大湯麵線啦 什麼麵線雞啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7102.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7121.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以若不是為死去的破壁這樣我們就比較安心要確定喔 你真的為屠宰場開每一個公家的 大型的或者是財產法人的屠宰場都有授意吧授意都在做假的 都要回他們那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7126.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7145.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以這一點就一定要到這個時代了一定要很扎實那如果是屠宰場出來的放在那邊壞掉 爛掉 炒掉再拿去加工 用過氧化氫用磁力酸 洗一洗讓它沒鼻子 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7146.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7164.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
大家都吃下肚那個是很可怕的事情部長 我們食安的問題跟勞安的差不多都是很重要的這食品攸關到人民的日常生活所以這絕對沒有半點可以沒有空間所以對這個業者我們絕對重罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7170.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7183.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我們今天就會開出處分五千多萬罰金就會先執行不會等到這家百威還是這幾家百威 百威 百威因為違法的是這幾家應該是這是你們的土喔這幾間是 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7186.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7203.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
因為我們是要讓民眾了解流向只是要讓他清楚流向不要造成整個市面上的恐慌所以就是目前看出來有賣出去的大概就主要兩個地方一個是屏東的和聲市場另外一個是台北的寧夏夜市其他地方沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7204.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7217.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
大家的食安問題都經常發生 我常常聽到很瘋狂的那個三合一卸財 補償努力那個健保署跟CDC我要問那個花蓮子事 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7221.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7248.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
普定你現在大家都在說很多很多很多八八風災的時候我就在拿瓶子在家裡在叫都一樣一模一樣都在外面都是土石流要跟你請教的是說這些老人這些老人他風災要來了火水要來了他們可以先拿著去拿藥嗎拿他們慢性病的藥嗎不然藥出問題他什麼用的無人機要去送藥嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7250.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7253.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
縫縫那樣大 第一陣子就撥不開 無人機撥不開實際上是有問題的 保證你這樣縫縫可以拿這麼長 這樣縫 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7263.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7281.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
健保署 健保署不來喔有啦 有啦 健保署健保署的問題我可以回答你那個關的啦再來就是那個藥啊我們常常吃的藥都是用那種大瓶散裝的這個是很糟糕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7282.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7298.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
在八八風災的時候 那個時候楊志良當署長 衛生署署長那時候我去站著看所以要到那個呂伯包的 寫薄的呂伯訂製 放在那裡那六個碗 你要拿起來喔熱熱的 水沖沖的 裡面的油不淡 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7301.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7316.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以你一定要用 尤其是台灣這麼多雨多災難的地方你一定要用鋁箔袍 塞薄膜可以保留更久你要讓他們落地反射 幫他們補充油給我這個我強烈建議因為你那些散裝的油 要一小時就淡了我問這個怪獸達人 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7327.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7352.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
怎麼這麼快就站起來CDC你有研究看嗎剛才我說的油壓的部分對那種排裝藥 不是散裝排裝藥的話我們都有地板架的保護特別合價上 價格上會不一樣那麼這個地板架的落差也不同第二個提早領藥這個問題比較麻煩的是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7353.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7377.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
每次預警的時候 時間跌跌都不是說很長所以這個比較難說發佈說大家趕快去拿藥這個是比較困難但是長假的話我們都有我們預定的長假 譬如說過年這種長假我們都會提早讓他可以提早拿雖然他的那個藥還沒有吃完他就可以提早來拿慢性藥藥品重疊不用抓到癌 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7381.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7403.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
是 健保局你有一個阿蘇比就直接上下跟委員報告我們現在也在研議比如說你有一些自動調劑機那個都是要排裝所以有時候沒辦法算到我們這裡要用高的嘛這樣會影響到採購自動調劑的意願所以我們在研究看讓它有一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7405.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7430.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
淡泊下去重疊沒關係這樣才能夠讓整個調劑更安全更自動化也減輕臨床的負擔至於這個個案當然這個是很晚期據我們的了解到目前為止培養的細菌上還沒有完全可以確認當然這個本身的很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7432.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7445.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
自身的免疫也會受到因為沒幾歲啦我看到四十幾歲因為這個有一些有癌症沒有啦因為我們在屏東要常常處理海洋腐菌那我看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7449.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7467.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
英雄喔 他是小腿受傷嘛小腿受傷 那就趕快切開 引流 清創我們在海洋附近那切就是抽屎桿 抽屎桿如果沒有就不會活了沒有真的 不好意思這也要借這個機會呼籲要呼籲就是說 因為太投入救災啦稍微沒有去注意到 稍微慢了一點很可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7478.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7502.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我覺得在這種救災的地方,如果閒雜人等,不用去那裡逗留,讓長假的人去就好了,不然大家在那裡插來插去,因為我的印象,像我在林邊那個時候,林邊那個很嗶嗶,非常非常糟糕,你知道在現場有多少人嗎?林邊,兩萬五千人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7506.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7522.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
一天上去便當 兩萬五千粒我在那裡做醫療 我說得很清楚我都不好意思 去別人家便當都有好處 我上來華谷山的 慈濟的 岩岩不絕地上來兩萬五千的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7525.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7551.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
效率打折啦所以喔 這裡要呼籲說大家愛心 我們都很欽佩但是如果你沒有專業性的實在是不要去啦去那是真的假造成人的困擾啦所以這裡不是要打大家的士氣是事實上是這樣那這個急性創傷的處理如果是小腿搞到這樣子我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7553.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7581.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
有點沒辦法接受 也很可笑所以在這裡 可能要再加強譬如說基層的醫師或者是都要初步傷口創傷處理 還有研判這個不是等閒事之因為這個是因為就醫的時候比較慢醫療的處置上都非常OK因為來的時候一定休克 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7583.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7589.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
就業型的休克好 謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員那我們謝謝石部長那我們休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7611.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7613.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7626.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7650.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7653.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7667.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8202.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8211.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
喂沒問題謝謝謝謝部長好好沒關係等一下再處理好嗎好可以按鈴了好現在繼續會議那請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8229.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8234.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
謝謝主席 主席請一下石崇良部長請石部長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8248.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8277.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
部長因為光復鄉的的災情然後秋冬季節剛好又是流感跟新冠比較盛行的的後發時節那所以我有一些有關疫情監控的問題跟部長做個討論是那羅益君署長也在就是誰回答都可以就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8279.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8299.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
風災的時候造成了嚴重的積水那它可能對於生態跟環境有一些影響飲水也會受到一定的污染這個就沒有辦法的事情只是我們在廢棄物陸續清理完成以後災區可能還會有短暫的陣雨 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8302.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8310.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
會引發很多例如長病毒等等的傳染風險我不知道衛福部這邊對於光復鄉災區的疫情監控的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8318.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8336.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
跟委員報告大概在災後我們會有注意到兩類的傳染病一類呢是從這個土壤接觸汙物接觸引發的那像這個類組病啊還有這個溝體螺旋體就是Leptospirosis這一種的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8338.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8353.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
因為這個是要通報的通報的傳染病所以這個會被通報所以這個我們有在監控到目前為止大概有一例疑似通報而已疑似而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8353.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8368.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這是一個第二個是因為不潔飲水或者是人的過度密集居住所引發的傳染病大概就是這些什麼腸胃炎呼吸道的疾病等等所以這個我們都會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8372.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8386.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
不斷的在透過媒體或者是宣導這樣請大家去注意乾淨飲水飲食的安全等等這個打疫苗這個我們也都這個優先施打在災區對就是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8390.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8406.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
天災過後的傳染病的防止必須要做好免得再引發另外一波的災情出來部長剛剛有講到疫苗的接種 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8408.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8436.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
疾管署這邊有宣布過就是公費流感跟新冠疫苗的接種對象就是擴大納入光復鄉的全體居民那我想那大概就是有一萬兩千人左右那有關疫苗的因為災區可能供應供電不穩定疫苗的保存還行 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8438.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8462.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
當然這個當地只有一家衛生所就是光復衛生所它毀損算是嚴重所以本來的疫苗都毀損掉了所以我們CDC現在有在另外撥補給它冷藏的設備也都沒有問題疫苗供應沒有問題那現在施打的狀況怎麼樣 知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8464.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8486.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
來 兩位請那個截至目前是流感施打了960多劑然後新冠接種了330多劑那主要是因為學校這個部分的集中接種還沒開始目前已經排定因為學校已經復課了所以10月14、15這兩天就會入校去做集中接種對 要不然假如到署長現在的答覆就是其實接種的比例是偏低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8487.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8512.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
對 因為災民忙著復原家園那從昨天開始光復鄉衛生所也成為第二個疫苗接種點開始提供服務所以我們預期這個接種人數會快速的增加我們在那個光復糖廠那現在衛生所也加入所以那個接種的地點也擴大那今年的因為疫情來得比較早流感疫情來得比較早所以都鼓勵大家因為不是馬上打了就有保護力要趕快打 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8513.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8534.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那今年的接種情形也比去年踴躍所以請大家趕快打對 那因為我看現在的比例偏低所以還是要趕快加強宣導當然災民在忙著家園的復健可是他的身體的健康我們盡可能的幫他把 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8535.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8557.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
防護做好而且我們還開放到那個光復救災的志工 工作人員也可以打跟我們一般現在施打的對象不一樣 比較寬對 因為救災的人也一直在裡面所以整體的保護力要完善還是他們也要納入這個很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8560.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8579.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那我還是要請教一下還是災區的問題因為災區重振的過程中我覺得災民跟一線工作人員在心理層面是非常需要被照顧的我不知道部裡面這邊除了短期的心理資源輔導以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8582.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8597.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
有沒有中長期的心理資源的計畫跟委員報告確實我們現在現階段來講還是主要是針對災民或者是在災區的一些脆弱家庭這些特別著重而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8598.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8612.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
不過接下來我們還會有新的方案要推出特別是對於投入救災的工作人員或者是志工他可能也有後續上的這些可能需要的心理支持方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8613.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8633.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
因為投入的志工跟工作人員他可能跟災區的災民其實是不同類型的因為他救完災他就會回到原本的居住地所以這個部分會比較散居在全台各地 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8634.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8656.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
可能會用原本的支持方案來支持可是光復鄉因為它是一個集體的創商所以它的中長期支持計畫可能要另外我們大概會分成兩大塊一個是團體性的團體性的像國軍投入的很多所以我們也會跟國防部來提醒對於這些投入 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8657.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8685.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
不管是我們的這個替代役或者是國軍都要把他注意到這個後段的這個心理支持的部分有一些志工團體我們也會提醒他們他們過去比較有制度化另外就是還有很多是自願來的那一些那我們就要擴大我們專線服務或者網絡性的這個資源的提供衛福部這邊就是除了防 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8686.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8706.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
除了災民的身體健康以外在心理的知識上還是要注意而且我們這個案子還會稍微久一點可能要長達一年或者更久好 謝謝部長 部長請回主席我請一下環境部請環境部彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8710.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8729.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
部長好 部長我簡單問一個災區的垃圾處理的問題就是說根據你們的網站資料到10月1號為止的統計我們清除了淤泥和垃圾大概有 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8732.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8747.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
8.5萬噸那請問一下你們現在除了暫時性先集中戰制以外後續地方政府你們怎麼協助他去去去化這麼大量的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8750.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8767.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
謝謝楊委員第一個是說目前的最新的資料已經超過10萬噸了10萬噸了那它主要是淤泥加上廢棄物那目前因為處理這個我們預估有幾十萬噸不是只有10萬噸而已光是我這邊你們10月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8769.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8784.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
到現在就又多出1.5萬噸所以這個反應要很迅速的那目前我們第一個是我們現在最近這幾個月應該是趕快把舊災復原市區復原那廢棄物的處理我們是鎖定我們希望明年再開始做 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8785.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8812.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
因為第一個是處理要把所有的廢棄物要分類分篩 要物理去分篩這個所謂的砂石歸砂石 土歸土這個我們已經有請專家來驗它後面有什麼用途那廢棄物的部分呢現在花蓮的是委託給台泥再做一個後續的處理那當然一定要先篩分篩分完之後才能夠做去化那這個幾十萬其實因為還要包含了我們大概還有10公頃的田是垃圾加淤泥 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8813.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8839.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那還有大概是六 七百公頃是淤泥那這個是農業部跟水利署跟我們循環署三個部會還有國土署應該是四個部會我們要處理這個事情那這個也希望這個立法院可以因為我們現在有提出可能要爭取一些這個追加的預算因為這個處理這個廢棄物還有未來的淤泥這是要花很多很多錢的我想這個預算大家應該會支持因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8842.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8862.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
災後很多事情要處理都是需要錢的啦我只是因為救災到最後的一個階段可能就是環境部必須要把環境重新再整理起來所以我今天做個提醒我們在規劃了 也希望委員到時候給我們多指教謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員接下來請傅坤祺委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8878.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8906.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
主席 請衛福部 石部長請石部長委員好 部長好現在花蓮光復這麼大的一個災區啊這個從發生到現在衛福部啊在整體上準備的工作準備的工作是不是做得很周全 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8909.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8924.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
跟委員報告我們從這個預警開始我們就全力投入那麼包含在這個前置開始這個部長去這個災後災後的部分嘛災後當然我們從這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8926.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8952.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
第一時間我就接到總召的電話那麼立刻就發動了我們DMAT那麼醫療團隊就開始進入到災區那麼設立 逐步的設立醫療站那麼對於100人以上的收容所優先就有團隊進駐然後在未來 後來還在這個光復車站這邊這個是醫療需求的部分那災民收容的部分我們也考量到這個後續他可能要 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8953.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8976.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
更長的一點的這個家園復原的時間所以我們也讓原本收容安置的這個過去是在收容安置所收容中心而已我們也放寬到可以到旅館民宿等等我們給他這個補助一天2000塊而且時間可以到10月31號以前讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8977.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9005.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我們還可以清理家園的當中呢還可以有這個旅館可以先投訴那後續的這個家園支持的這個護援的費用我們也積極現在正在做這個家訪登錄然後我們就趕快來撥款這個禮拜我們就開始啟動撥款對災民所做的相關的這些安置還有這個健康醫療的照護本席今天請教的問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9008.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9035.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
政府在號召中央政府在號召這麼多的志工啊進入這個工區災區以後正如賴總統所說啊教師節連假第一天進來了三萬多人第二天進來了四萬一千人第三天進來了四萬三千人總共來了十一二萬人衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9036.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9063.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你們有準備好了嗎有沒有做相關這些安全志工基本的這些宣導有沒有做相關足夠每一天有幾萬人在工區相關醫療的準備還有哪一些是不適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9065.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9086.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
有熱忱 有愛心 但是並非專業的這些志工能夠進入的地方 對本身的安全是否得宜啊而且在志工一天幾萬人進來 在工區的分配上 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9087.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9109.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
哪一些是比較危險的哪一些必須專業的哪一些必須國軍接手的有沒有提供相關的意見跟委員報告確實我們很感謝全國的民眾投入到花蓮的救災跟復原確實這些志工的人數遠超過我們過去的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9112.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9123.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們基本上呢當然這個滯空的背景還有我們現在所災區所需要的部分的樣態非常的多樣那也不是我們衛福部可以全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9124.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9147.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這個來cover不過基本的防護我們有特別宣導也請我們羅署長拍了這個宣導片特別是希望大家裝備保護飲食保護 清潔保護對這個投入到這個不論你是到災區做什麼那麼最基本的這些保護希望大家請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9148.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9177.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
部長有去工區直接在現場看救災人員有沒有相關的這些防護跟準備有沒有防護準備就是我們有提供那個這個衛教的資料他應該要長靴然後要有這個防水手套有沒有直接去工區看這些志工在進行的有看到志工啦那但是並不是當然所有的部長本席在這裡提醒你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9179.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9208.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
台灣人的愛心我們非常的感動善心我們非常感念但是這麼多的志工來到了工區中央所屬相關的部會有沒有做相關的宣導跟相關的現場直接的做安全的保護本校特別在這裡很誠摯的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9210.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9240.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
昨天不幸發生林鴻升志工不幸罹難的事情就因為在工區被鐵條劃傷了腿然後就感染感染之後八天就奪走了一位這麼善良志工的生命我們非常的遺憾但是又看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9241.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9270.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
因為志工就因為搬運這個水泥溝水泥的溝蓋結果把手指頭整個壓斷掉應該是切斷了送到御理容院沒有辦法整治再送到台東馬街這是本席親自碰到的還不曉得有多少人現在在志工在這種環境當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9272.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9300.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我要特別提醒衛福部時務部長這應該要積極的向卓榮泰院長來反映本席昨天已經隆重的告訴卓院長衛福部你本於職責跟專業必須要告訴行政院這些志工是否有完備的防護是否有足夠的專業尤其現在在清溝 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9302.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9329.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
清溝這是高度危險專業的工作這溝裡面有多少種不同的細菌那天賴總統在現場本席也陪伴賴總統在那裡看我就看到這個禮拜一我就看到一位志工就在那裡挖土挖水溝整個人在水溝裡面就穿了一個靴子 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9333.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9359.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
徒手 請問一下本席當時積極就告訴他只要身上有傷痕要立刻離開現場要立刻就治部長 不要把台灣人民的愛心他們的生命 他們的靈魂是非常的高潔我們要怎麼保護這群善心的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9361.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9384.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
石部長 您做的不夠 但是本席在這裡提醒應該要告訴行政院必須有專業的國軍 工兵來做這些危險性的工作不能放給職工來做這樣的一個高度危險的清溝而且清溝 總共30公里的溝要清 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9385.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9415.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
不能放給志工可以嗎我們比較鼓勵的是有組織性的志工那麼經過我們現在也昨天就發新聞稿衛福部的醫療志工都是大家先來登記然後呢我們會按照他的背景專長還有我們的這個現場的需要來做調派那同時也能夠保護他們那也能夠這個未來的這個工作的效率跟現在的指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9416.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9437.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
紀連城政委告訴他分派的時候要應該清溝的部分應該由國軍直接來接手不可以再交給志工這是極度的危險我們不希望悲劇再發生我們請那個環境部彭部長請彭部長兩個問題請部長現在不只垃圾的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9444.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9468.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
堆置在那裡從805萬噸現在變10萬噸更重要的是因為賴總統到這個前進協調所這個指揮官已經紀連城政委已經說明得很清楚現在這個600公頃有600萬立方的淤泥 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9474.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9486.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
現在只找到一個30公頃的土地要來處理這是不夠的 600萬噸的淤泥要如何處理去花要多少時間 可能請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9489.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9515.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
最快的時間能夠提一個計劃出來 好好不好給本席還有國民黨團可以嗎好 報告委員 這個有兩個部分我們這邊大概有幾十萬噸他們那邊是泥沙有的是泥沙加垃圾那其實有三個部分那我們現在是的確是跨部會在協調當中那我們也期待因為這個處理真的很花錢而且要花時間也期待這個大院能夠給我們經費上的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9516.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9542.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
環境部主責嘛本期還是希望有盡快明確的一些計畫出來盡快另外就是清溝啊剛剛本期我問過衛福部這30公里請向行政院卓院長反映不要再有手無寸鐵的志工沒有穿任何防護的志工去做清溝這麼危險的工作應該交給專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9544.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9570.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
報告委員其實第一個是說溝有好幾種一般的家戶旁邊的側溝他很矮的那其實鐵桿桿拿起來很容易那我們有分給他輕溝少那就可以開始再挖我們大概一千多個部長 本席再講一次所以志工的手指頭這樣被切斷了不是專業的這些工兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9572.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9588.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
不要讓這些手無寸鐵的志工在災區深陷險境好好疼惜這些台灣有愛心善心的人我們會交代就是說在給如何給志工更好的一個防護那當然因為我們是希望10月18號趕快給花蓮人應該說趕快協調國防部接手 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9594.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9608.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
清溝的工作不要再讓有善心的人民暴露在危險當中這才是積極的作為謝謝委員 因為請部長本一專業盡快反映因為那個光復的這個溝大概一萬多個洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9609.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9635.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那一萬多個洞那我們現在其實一個洞三個人挖大概挖一個上午才能夠挖一個所以我們是希望趕快讓花蓮人光復人能夠回到正常的生活因為溝沒有通這個家裡面的各種都不會通部長交給專業速度一定更快不是交給沒有防護守護寸鐵的人民一萬多個孔 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9636.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9648.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
三萬個人去清理你有三萬套裝備給他們嗎有的話你再告訴本席可以交給他們好不好請盡快通知國防部把相關的事務來處理好不好 謝謝謝謝副村級委員請圖權級委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9665.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9690.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
好 謝謝主席 先請我們彭部長請彭部長杜委員好彭部長 那個我們距離丹納斯颱風風災到現在有幾個月了三個月三個月 那那個時候我們講說我們破損 受損的光電板我們要把它完成資源化 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9690.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9717.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那這部分資源化部分完成的現在到什麼進度大概其實九成的部分總共9.1萬片已經完全資源化完成還有1.2萬片他在正在處理當中因為他破的特別厲害然後那這個他先暫置在那個地方所以基本上我們總共12.1萬片大概9.1萬片是已經進入資源化當中那剩下進制暫置要帶資源化的大概還有1.2萬片 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9718.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9743.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
可是部長那時候不是說大概一個半月你就可以把它清因為其實第一個是這個清不是我們清錢也不是我們付是所謂的太陽光鏈業者跟後面的處理業者他們自己要去簽約那有些業者他比較貴那有些業者比較便宜他們就選擇比較便宜的那可能時間就會比較久這是他們的一個商業行為那我們會嚴格監督說他到底有沒有把它去花掉絕對不會進到我們現在的這個焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9745.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9767.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
可是我們現在擔心這個破損的光電板它長期堆置在一個農地土地上 是不是會造成污染不會 其實目前它大概如果它是放在一個站置的土地它一定要符合我們的廢棄物的堆置的一個規範所以目前的情況是沒有所以你說破損的光電板長期堆置不會造成土地污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9768.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9784.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
基本上第一個是它現在有的是堆置在有一些戰制的沒有用的廠房裡面有一兩個前一陣子有被發現它沒有包得很好地方的環保局也有去開罰了所以目前大多數是沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9785.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9812.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以破損的太陽能光電板它本身破損長期的話會不會產生假設風吹日曬雨淋會不會產生一些有毒物質如果是破碎的在一些例如說不是大自然的地方這個是我們不被允許的它就當成是一個事業廢棄物來處理我們不願意我們不允許這樣處理的對啊 所以你看我記得我們環境部在7月9號在媒體上你們有公開講 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9814.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9829.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
說太陽能板不是免污染的綠色標章那而且你們也說這個破損破碎的光電模組如果沒有及時處理長期的話會釋放出鉛 隔 銅等有害物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9830.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9844.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
會造成我們污染所以如果長期你堆置風吹日在雨淋它勢必就會這些有害的金屬啊所以我們很快的大概最晚最晚一家是9月5號它已經清除原來的大自然的環境了 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9845.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9869.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以重點現在當初講一個半月現在三個月是還沒有清完我們已經在原來的案場毀壞的早就已經到9月5號前清完了那是最後一家其他大概一個月就清完了那至於說它最後放在什麼地方現在還有1.2萬噸它是在它的站置場的廠房那有些是放在它自己租用的一個地方那都必須遵循著廢棄物的管理的準則來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9871.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9892.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以目前沒有一個光電板是隨便丟在可能是任何的這個草地或農地上面的所以這部分部長還是要幫我們了解一下可以 沒有問題因為這裡一定要嚴格監督我們就是擔心它這個長期破損的光電板你堆置在農地上一定長期堆置一定會釋放出這個有毒的這個我們不被允許的因為他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9892.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9905.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
元玉這家的確它有放在跟台塘豬的農地上面那經過這個媒體報導之後他也很快的就把它清除掉了好 那先請一下我們能源署的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9909.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9936.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
是好署長我請問一下因為我看我們這次的報告我們經濟部裡面都沒有提到這個災後光電板這些處理的情形是那這個跟經濟部不是也有關係嗎那為什麼都沒有這些的相關的資料事實上我們是剛才講我們是由業者清理出他的廠區外就剛才那個志榮池我們是把它清理到這個廠區裡面外 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9938.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9952.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那但是他廠區外後續就是剛才環境部報告的他們會再把他送到這個後面的處置場那如果沒有完全送到處置場的那他就目前他是租廠房把它堆置起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9953.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9981.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
大概是我們分成兩個部分一個就是在廠區內的部分那這一部分是屬於農園署主管的我們會請業者在廠區內把它清理出來那出了廠區之後後續的回收資源再利用處理因為我們是看到你們上面沒有報告這個資料後來我們自己去調閱啦那我現在疑問的是這一次嘉義新莊智鴻池光電板這暗場這個業者到底是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9983.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10004.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這個業者一個是元玉那目前大概元玉有三個滯洪池那麼處理得比較慢那所以之前環境部去那邊也跟他做三次處分所以經濟部這邊登記的是元玉嗎是元玉 對那彭部長我請問一下為什麼環境部登記的是淨金生能源它兩個一樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10005.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10034.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
一樣 它是那個股東但是公司登記它叫元玉公司那為什麼同樣的一個廠在經濟部登記跟在環境部登記是不一樣的公司 可以這樣嗎這個我們再查一下它應該是同一個公司只是它有的時候是一個母公司子公司的關係所以這樣子是合法合規的 是嗎它同一個廠在經濟部跟環境部登記的是不同公司這樣子可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10035.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10063.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這個我們要了解一下它是不是子公司跟母公司的關係那我們可以來查所以我們覺得很奇怪我們一去查 奇怪同一個廠兩個部會登記的居然是不一樣而且我們經濟部跟環境部這兩個部會尚未處理的廢棄的太陽能光電板環境部部長剛剛說是一萬兩千片那經濟部是多少片 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10064.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10084.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
目前我們是以環境部為準因為它已經破損了所以可能看到它是東一塊西一塊所以在計算的時候可能會有一些誤差我們現在後來我們是以環境部的為準因為我們得到的經濟部的資料是15000片然後彭部長也說的是12000片 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10086.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10104.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
因為它有的時候它一片它會破掉變兩三片所以從這個部分你看我覺得經濟部跟環境部這邊真的要跟我們說明一下登記的公司也不一樣然後你們這個最後處理資源化處理還沒有處理部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10105.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10122.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
的數量也不一樣我在想這兩個部會是不是都沒有在溝通協調這個案子都沒有來大概後來我們知道了我們後來就以環境部的為主就剛才報告因為有一些他本來是一片破損成好幾片那這在計算上可能會產生落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10123.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10150.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
好 這個部分我希望像剛剛登記那個公司我覺得還是要給我們一個說明那兩個部會同一個廠登記不同公司在環境部跟經濟部登記的都不一樣這到底會是不是 這有合乎規定嗎那其實據我們了解我們台灣現在好像處理這個破損的光電板是不是只有四家廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10151.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10176.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那四家廠商 據我們了解這四家廠商他五年來處理的數量根本都沒有超過2800公噸所以這個2800公噸基本上我們處理的量能就是有問題根本就不可能在一個月 一個半月內去把它處理好所以這個量能根本完全我們完全沒有辦法去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10177.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10201.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
因為過去我們這個量能本來是太舊換新它定期除役那這是因為受了風災所以才大量的有大量的出來那所以是這樣的情形它過去是我們這些處理是有借領的或偶爾有損壞的那麼才太舊換新的時候才在處理這些所以我們現在也擔心你經濟部一直到處全台灣到處都在設這個光電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10203.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10217.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
你看一個嘉義的你就處理不了那我們在想以後你現在這量能你就已經遠遠不及那以後勢必這個量能要更大以後我們這台灣全台灣的光電板到底要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10218.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10234.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
是 那麼當然這次是因為百年來的天災唯一一次從嘉義上岸那是一個比較特殊的情形那另外在後面量能的處理我們會繼續跟環境部來合作那另外我們為了因應這次風災我們也加強了管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10234.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10262.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
比如說剛才委員指教的就是說因為風災會造成光電板的受損那我們這一次檢討之後我們把屋頂型的光電板我們就要求過去只有技師簽證我們現在是要求技師簽證要耐17級風我們加強它的這種耐風的強度那麼加強它的管理那另外大型的這個太陽光電廠我們現在是要求它比較災防法要提出災防計畫好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10264.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10285.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那個彭部長我們那時候8月22號我們有到桃園東宏國際光電去現場看他處理這破損的光電板那我們也發現他光電板他各個廠的種類型號而且各家廠的尺寸好像不一樣對不對沒錯 有大有小所以現場我們也看到他要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10287.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10307.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
這個破損光電板它要有一個尺寸的機器裡面那如果這個尺寸不一樣它的機器勢必也沒有辦法這樣子去處理所以我們覺得很奇怪為什麼這光電板你沒有標準化給它一個標準化的尺寸將來回收也才有辦法標準化去回收處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10307.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10319.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
不然你看你這個量能我們又沒辦法處理然後你的規格尺寸又不一樣又造成回收業者在處理又費時又費工而且浪費他的金錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10320.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10340.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那這部分我們沒有辦法統一尺寸嗎這個未來我們可以來改進因為目前並沒有訂定它尺寸的國家標準所以大概都是長成那個樣但是稍微都有不同那委員只要這個我們可以來跟標準局來討論是不是可以訂出一個國家標準來訂定統一的規格跟形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10341.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10357.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我是建議啦 你像你看以前我們台灣那個寶特瓶的瓶蓋它後來是整個尺寸統一之後它製造也節省很多的成本再回收處理也可以加快它的速度所以我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10358.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10386.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
太陽能光電板應該我們也要來讓它統一尺寸標準尺寸以後回收處理才可以減少它的時間而且可以不用浪費那麼多時間不用浪費那麼多的成本安裝設計也會比較方便對啊 所以我覺得我們這主管單位應該要下來處理這個讓太陽能光電板去標準尺寸怎麼每個廠種類 型號 尺寸全部都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10387.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10400.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
還有一個最後因為這個風災發生之後我們發現我們太陽能光電板雖然上面好像有它的序號但是它是用貼紙貼的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10402.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10419.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那貼紙貼的你看現在有很多它現在根本這個貼紙都掉了所以根本不知道這是哪一家的到底要由誰來負責那以後這些太陽能光電板它的期限到之後以後萬一這個貼紙掉一大堆廢棄的要找誰來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10421.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10433.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以連民眾都有講說這麼簡單的問題不會用鐵色的嗎用貼紙你看這個風災水災的時候貼紙都掉了到後面根本找不到這個業者是誰有誰來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10436.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10458.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
好 這個我們來檢討看看有沒有辦法其他方法讓這樣的東西能夠不要因為風災還是下雨或是浸泡就脫落我們來研究看看有什麼方法可以處理這樣的問題對啊 因為我們現在全台灣到處都在做這個光電板嘛那你看現在這麼多的問題我希望在尺寸還有這個標籤上面都一定要去加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10460.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10473.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
還有剛剛講的那個兩個公司別不一樣的部分也請部長到時候給我們一個答覆好謝謝謝謝土全級委員請林淑芬委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10492.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10497.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好謝謝莊委是不是請我們這個彭部長請彭部長李委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10503.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10525.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
部長這個馬太安溪映射湖的潰堤引發了這個嚴重的天災事實上也造成了很多的生命財產上的重大損失但是現在的問題是在災區留下了一個很嚴峻的這個環境跟公共衛生的危機那這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10529.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10555.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
大家都看到光復鄉堆積了一大堆的廢棄物公共衛生的風險劇增除了是地方政府的輕忽怠惰但是我們要講這也是國家層級缺少一套前瞻性的系統性的跨區域的災害廢棄物管理計畫所導致的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10557.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10568.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那我們今天就是在談說前瞻性的系統性的跨區域的災害廢棄物的管理計畫那這個東西你們有擬過這種計畫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10571.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10588.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
報告委員我所知道是沒有例如說像之前的丹納斯每一個地方都幾萬噸幾萬噸都是個別縣市自己來解決並沒有像委員說的整個跨區要整個大量怎麼去區劃你們署長在那裡署長我請教你你知道這樣的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10590.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10601.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
跟整體這個災難其實是息息相關的需不需要這樣的一個計畫那你25號才從法國飛回來 26號才到這個水災這個大量土石 淤泥毀壞家園的這些廢棄物發生的時候你才趕回來嘛 你26號才到台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10614.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10627.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那你覺得做環管署作為這個主管機關裡面的核心業務單位那你覺得需不需要有一個跨區域的災害廢棄物管理計畫你們有沒有思考過因為台灣天災很多複合性的複合式的災害也發生過很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10642.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10670.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那難道都沒有整個思考過政府國家級其實要有一套應對的方法那才累積到今天在馬太安艷澀湖一流的時候我們到今天整合過去數十年的經驗如果有這樣一個制度性的全面性的系統性的思考或許今天會更有用你們到底業務核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10671.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10677.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
單位有沒有想過你們經常去考察這次也跟業者出去考察啊在法國啊那你們考察出什麼報告委員那個有關防災的計畫其實在各縣市政府 防災的計畫我有跟你講防災計畫嗎不要推給災防法也不用推給內政部我再跟你講的是災害廢棄物管理計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10702.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10725.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
廢棄物 因為災害的廢棄物管理計畫你不知道 你都沒有思考過國家旗的 系統性的 有沒有思考過啦阿不然你常出國在靠菜 是在靠菜什麼發生的時候 第一時間你還沒有立即回來喔你也是25號趕快飛 然後26號才到喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10728.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10756.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
不是是啦 你有想過嗎 你都出國在考察你有去日本考察過嗎日本考察有沒有去過日本有那你有考察過日本的災害廢棄物管理計畫你知道人家有這種制度嗎日本的災害管理準則他們其實有明確的應對的要怎麼辦理的SOP 人家有耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10758.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10780.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
台灣跟日本一樣多災害 複合式災害很多人家日本已經完整的訂出了很多的計畫台灣這個國家 這個政務我們從來不曾思考過這些議題你這個書長 老實說你跟不上這個時代跟不上這個國家所需要的這個能力書長你說說看 你講講看 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10786.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10796.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我剛剛講的你不要再推給內政部災防法 我今天講的是災害廢棄物管理計畫你們有沒有思考過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10798.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10822.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
八卦委員我們可以來檢討啦這確實整體性的沒有因為以往我們在處理的方面齁這個災防法不是只有內政部災防法我不是在說災防法而已所以廢棄物的處理以往在救災方面我們確實是有跨區的資源以往運作也算正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10822.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10836.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
你現在都停留在20世紀或者是停留在很早期的概念人家我現在這樣講好了部長你來講好了啦我知道剛才有委員說600萬噸的淤泥加垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10840.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10864.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
到底是有廢棄物的量體有多大你們是怎麼評估 評估大概有多大你可不可以告訴我光是簡單的廢棄物的量體有多大你來回答我第一個是從無人機去拍這個煙塞 煙蓋的範圍土砂的量有多少 垃圾的量有多少所以我們其實市區的我們大概有估算出例如說這次有十幾萬噸的垃圾加淤泥 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10866.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10883.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那至於農業部農田淤泥遇到農田的部分那是農業部在估計他們有報給我們一個數值那最後的處理主要是農田的部分是農業部為主那他有跟我們有一個合作的一個關係垃圾加淤泥十幾萬噸你們放在 準備了六個戰智場對六個戰智場 你們選址選戰智場的依據和怎麼標準你是怎麼選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10894.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10913.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
第一個是你要不要回答第一個是當然是遠離這個民眾第二個是那個交通第三個是他以後後續處理會比較方便第四個是他當地的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10914.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10934.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
远离民众这段话你说得出来真的有远离民众吗第二个你们选址上其实考量的是足够的空间容纳足够的这些淤泥和垃圾吧那我现在讲的就是说大家都知道现场的空间 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10935.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10948.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
堆成一整排比人還要高距離不到200公尺距離這個有人住的活動的地方都是垃圾堆置堆成好幾座所以這種狀況你叫第一個條件叫遠離遠離人群 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10953.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10976.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那倒不是啊因為我有在現場待了很多天那第一個是說那邊的淤積量 垃圾量實在太大了所以有的是在一個社區先堆置然後移到我們中型的然後再移到一個大型的那這個其實上我們有一個計畫未來要準備推動因為未來大的處理要後面30公尺的你們這個真的是土法煉鋼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10978.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10999.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我待會再告訴你講這種話毫無制度然後呢毫無標準土法煉鋼今天我光是問你說你這些淤泥去化要去到哪裡去化不要講垃圾廢棄物淤泥你的去化管道要去到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11001.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11013.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
有好幾個用途第一個是例如說砂石廠第二個是像台泥你講這個這麼簡單砂石廠哪裡有砂石廠要用淤泥啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11014.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11029.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
沒有委員他有分好幾個層面有淤泥還有土砂我再問你淤泥啊淤泥跟土砂現在沒有篩分都在一起你不要在這裡所以委員我們要篩分現在未來的工作就要篩分全部加起來幾百萬噸要多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11032.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11060.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
非常多錢你估計要多少錢啊幾百萬噸喔在這裡簡單兩個字叫篩分我現在問題是要花多少錢好那你講說沒有並不是所有東西都混合到垃圾你混合到垃圾的量有多大大概幾十萬噸幾十萬噸篩分要多少錢而且淤泥曬太陽水分跑掉乾掉了然後垃圾就埋在裡面挖不出來變硬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11062.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11073 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
在這種狀況裡面成本是不是要更提高非常高非常高到底是多高大概要花到幾十億幾十億對我現在跟你講說你們在這裡還講台泥台泥第一時間他們就說他們可能沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11080.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11094.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
因為台裡的窯他是要燒廢棄物可以你的篩分有辦法成功篩分出泥巴跟廢棄物完全乾淨的分離嗎而且要洗選好嗎你沒有辦法你到他的窯裡面去燒他的油會壞掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11097.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11113.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
他有可能接受嗎 難怪人家據說他們不願意因為不相信你們有能力篩分的乾淨然後到他們的窯裡面可以燒而不會燒壞他的窯所以我講去化 你怎麼去化 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11114.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11135.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
然後篩分講得這麼容易幾十萬噸你就沒有辦法了所以在這種狀況裡面你們光是自己裸露堆積的垃圾量你們環境部主管的就有71.5萬噸全台灣掩埋廠剩餘容量只剩下兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11136.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11151.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
都不要講說這個丹納斯颱風還有實棉風險很高的廢棄物的問題也還沒有完全解決所以這一系列下來災害廢棄物不管是丹納斯的或是這一次這個驗射壺帶來的這些都是非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11157.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11181.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
大的問題 所以我們對於現有的廢棄物處理設施對於災害廢棄物可以處理的能量你估算怎麼估算你可能都沒有辦法想像耶 難以想像耶保證 不是現在在說的而已幾十億 你拿來了幾十億給你錢是不是要堆置 一直堆置 堆置很久很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11183.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11188.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以我現在要告訴你說準確的去估算廢棄物的處理量和內容是我們說的要訂定跨區域的災害廢棄物管理計畫的前提最重要的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11198.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11222.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那災害廢棄物的估算也決定了災後復原工作成敗的關鍵的第一步你缺乏健全的估算的方法會引發連鎖性的應變失靈導致復原的騎乘延宕公共衛生的風險升高還有處理成本的失控 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11223.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11249.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我現在跟你講的是全面性的思考不是在那裡土法煉鋼你的輸掉停留在20世紀土法煉鋼的時代早就過了我要跟你講日本的災害管理準則BP科查你也看到我們的界面跟我們的地理條件災害條件都很類似的日本他們從來沒有去考察過也沒有任何的思考過 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11250.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11259.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
日本怎麼做這次接受業者去法國考察多元廢棄物他剛剛想到這個 沒有所以你的書中很濃厚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11261.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11287.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
日本的災害管理準則明確的將喔初期應對制度化而且要將災害廢棄物處理量估計放在初期裡面列為災後必須立即採取的五項關鍵行動之一這一個災害管理準則它確立了準確的估算和有效行動之間的直接關聯因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11289.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11314.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
他未能進行估算本身就是不能夠就沒有辦法履行初期應對的核心職責所以第一個你要先估算精準啊估算精準啊如果沒有可信的數據支持你根本難以掌握廢棄物可能的總量或組成這些淤泥木材混凝土混合物垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11316.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11339.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
等等 這種都混合在一起第二個 在沒有辦法預支總量的狀況下根本不可能規劃 而且確保足夠的數量和面積去設置臨時堆置場你現在的臨時堆置場 照日本的標準來講都不及格因此臨時堆置場 第一個還是要考慮到環境和人的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11340.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11367.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
第一個絕對不是千年去救台湯的土地放在農地裡面造成二次污染也不是說暫置在離人很近的生活圈有可能人家第一要求你是要跟土壤隔絕的你如果沒有水泥地沒有辦法隔絕你要鋪防水布啊你有鋪嗎 有鋪防水布嗎你有建立這樣的準則讓第一線上的人去遵循嗎 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11369.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11385.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
有沒有想過不能夠造成二次的污染暫時堆置場第一次的一次的佔置場有沒有防水防污染設施在那個地面上 有沒有你在農地上欸 農地欸有沒有 沒有啦有沒有 有沒有 你回答一下啊不然說另外的補充是你有要求嗎 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11398.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11405.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個部分是在緊急狀況確實是沒有做人家日本也是緊急狀況日本都照步驟有規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11407.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11436.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
現在是什麼時代啊 你跟大土法煉鋼 跟20世紀一模一樣我再講喔這個在沒有辦法預知的狀況你根本就沒有確保足夠的數量它面具臨時堆置而且會導致堆置場迅速飽和或者是因為規劃不及而延遲開放第三個這些沒有經過分類的混合廢棄物它的處理難度和成本會遠高於分類後的廢棄物可回收物也受到污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11437.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11450.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
有害的物質 農藥化學品混入其中造成第二次公衛的風險在這些處理效率低落而且受污染的廢棄物流入台灣你要叫台擬幫你燒或是台灣自己的焚化爐台東的或是宜蘭的或是掩埋廠系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11460.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11474.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
它會使現有就已經產生的處理的瓶頸或容量短缺問題更加惡化整個清潤和復原的過程它會被延宕然後造成二次汙染我跟你講你都放在隆重隆低 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11475.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11504.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
二次污染很嚴重所以我現在講說你們準確的估算才能制定災害廢棄物處理執行計畫去提供這個基礎而且定出務實的處理目標才能夠編列合理的預算你現在量不知道預算不知道你要說很貴可是你根本不知道有多少那你也無從去估計但是我們知道估算災害廢棄物的挑戰真的是很困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11505.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11523.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
但是它也不是無解啊跟台灣同樣面臨地震颱風威脅土石流威脅的日本他們已經發展出一套全面性的而且是有數據驅動而且具備調適性的框架出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11524.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11543.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
他們除了311地震、阪神地震他們的地震、風災、土石流真的也非常多所以在這種狀況裡面日本的模式它的核心精神在於它的適應性它一次一次又一次又去調整它將估算工作分成四個階段從災前的規劃演進到災後的精準的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11549.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11569.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
第一個階段 災前的規劃要運用預設的災害情境 看是土石流還是單純的地震進行模擬 推估可能的廢棄物量作為地方政府制定災害廢棄物的處理計畫的基礎這個就是前瞻性的風險管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11571.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11594.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
不同的災害導致的量體是不一樣問題要面對的也不一樣第二階段他要在災後兩個禮拜以內他的初期應對他的初步的災損報告要出來關於建築物毀損的動數快速產生第一板的估算值在就是所謂的這個到底這個有多少的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11596.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11611.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
然後這個估算目的在指導開設臨時堆置場和緊急應變行動他估算出來了作為臨時指導緊急應變然後他的這個臨時堆置都要根據這個量體那第三階段兩個禮拜過後了 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11613.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11632.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
其實你要執行計畫一個月內要精準了整合了臨時堆置場實際接收的廢棄物量更精準的將建物受損評估對估算值進行修正要制定更詳盡的災害廢棄物的處理執行計畫再更精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11633.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11653.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
人家都是有步驟的第四階段計劃修正就在處理的過程中根據實際的建物拆除的進度還有整個環境清理出來的廢棄物的處理數據持續的滾動修正總量然後去預估 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11653.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11672.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
日本的模式的強大之處是它背後是詳盡的基於實證數據的係數資料庫這種模式他們已經算出來了根據不同的災害類型你是地震的 你是海嘯的 你是水災的 土石流它在模擬的時候它已經設置了不同的參數的值 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11675.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11702.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這些數據都是根據實際的過去的災害的例子分析和研究建立的比如說在他的技術手冊中都包含了各都道府縣按照他是不是木造的房子還是非木造的房子去劃分他的平均樓地板面積還有建築物的構造比還有這種精細化在地化的數據數量然後再搭配他是土石流海嘯還是純粹地震 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11705.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11725.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這些數據然後他們有模擬推估所以人家是演化在災害的基礎上我們不斷的學習累積然後還要進步這個就是我們台灣目前富之缺儒的關鍵的部分而且從來沒有思考過而且你們的環關署就是這麼弱還停留在20世紀 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11727.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11755.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
部長你不覺得包委我三點回覆第一個是日本的防災我非常了解但是也跟委員坦承我沒有去了解日本的垃圾的防災的這個垃圾怎麼處理那我會來好好來瞭解日本怎麼去處理委員的意見我會好好去研討那你可以再聽我講一下嗎日本的災害類型決定了廢棄物組成的首要因素所以它也災廢棄物的組成會直接決定了所需要的處理技術和物流規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11757.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11759.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
不是每個都一樣 還有物流規劃還有處理技術欸海嘯 它會連廢棄物 土壤 沉積物車輛 魚具 還有家戶用品都混合在一起跟我們這次很像欸但海嘯更嚴重 它是有鹽分污染的廢棄物物流欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11774.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11781.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以他需要大規模的篩分設施和特殊的處理程序相較之下地震當然是單純的啊在這種狀況裡面一套通用的災害廢棄物的應變計畫是遠遠不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11789.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11811.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
一個有效的計畫是要根據災害類型而去預測可能的廢棄物組成如果沒有辦法估算組成就意味著關鍵的初期的階段無法部署正確的處理設施設備會導致嚴重的延誤而會讓復原的期程更拖得更慢而公共衛生的風險環境的風險會更擴散 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11814.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11832.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以每一次的大規模的添災都在考驗台灣社會的韌性而在這裡災後復原的速度跟品質是要科學化的有效率的去處理巨量的災害廢棄物內花蓮這個案例告訴我們我們現行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11833.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11847.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
現在環境部環管署現行的處理體系在極端災害面臨這次的花蓮的這個案例的時候我們看到非常的脆弱準備不足而且相當的落伍 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11848.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11866.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以日本的經驗已經證明要在更前瞻的規劃 科學的估算它才是核心的管理框架是提升國家災後復原力的關鍵你要把日本這種模式應用到台灣來我們要在地化 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11866.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11883.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
建立屬於我們自己的參數資料庫和應變計畫是你們責無旁貸這次應該要從這裡看到你們從發生到現在都沒有這種思維完全都不知道直到立委質詢你們才說我們要來看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11884.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11896.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我們在這裡就是說 你要科學化的盤點分類估算 用這個基礎你要去制定詳細的處理執行計畫才能夠讓災區早日復原 那你要講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11897.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11917.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好包委員第一個防災日本的防災我很理解廢棄物的處理我會來好好理解日本怎麼去處理我並沒有看過所以委員的建議我會再跟你討教第二點是這次是全世界少有的這種嚴重的屠殺的掩埋跟過去我們看到的過去的案例是不一樣我們也第一次遇到那其實我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11917.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11943.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
先把災區恢復再說這是講及後面的這個中長期我們的確有在規劃我們也提供了一個相關的一個數字但是我們是內部在精算那個數字我們的確有掌握的那第三個呢其實還有一個問題我也沒有提到的其實中央跟地方這次主責的第一線是花蓮縣政府我們其實進去的時候也遇到很大的一個協調上的一個困難那直到最近這一個多禮拜我們全面的一個協助之後才能夠得到一個緩和 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11944.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11966.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
未來這也是一個你講的很多我都可以同意但是我是要告訴你你的還管屬主責的人腦袋沒有任何的思維這是事實而你們跟日本這一套系統比較起來你就知道我們多麼的落後也是一個事實但我現在更正你地方政府在在處理應變上從 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11969.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11996.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
從剛開始的這個撤離到災後的整個所有的搶救或者是復原上面我也知道地方政府的問題但我希望我要告訴你也不是從災害廢棄物的我剛剛講的那個觀點來看這是一個網域的救災系統他不是只有地方的問題所以不要講說中央來幫忙而是要講中央來統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11999.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12013.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我相信這個問題災害廢棄物處理的問題也不是一個地方政府能夠擔得起來的我只是談災害廢棄物我沒有談其他的就災害廢棄物來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12015.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12029.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我們要去統籌 因為它的確是跨域它是一個網域救災系統的跨域的問題它需要你來統籌 而你要統籌的能力必須你有一個完整的一個所謂的計畫那這一個災害廢棄物管理執行計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12038.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12062.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
你們也應該要有思考 你才有辦法擬定你才有辦法跟地方跨政府 跨域去協調對不對 你需要啊你協調的能力當然是需要靠你 檯泥要不要燒其他地方政府的焚化爐要不要燒那個都需要你出來協調但是你一個沒有篩分乾淨 誰要燒燒了爐子就壞掉了 怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12064.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12085.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以你這樣叫他擱置在這個台糖的土地上農地二次污染日本是不可能溫存這樣啦你沒有水泥地去隔絕那一些淤泥垃圾跟土壤直接接觸你至少要防水布 你要不透水你通通都沒有耶你那個輸掉26個這麼多回來台灣 還要發國23發生 還沒有回來25這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12091.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12118.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
你的署長 別再說他家裡都沒這麼多書客你一個部長沒辦法想這麼多你也不是這麼專業我認為責成你一個部長負責的確是不一定是恰當但是你的署長不專業 不認真沒有一個前瞻性的思考這不是今年今天發生這件事情才這樣子而是這麼多年了台灣的複合性災害也這麼多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12119.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12126.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
要怎麼處理 早就應該要累積從災害裡面 從傷痛裡面我們要累積 讓自己有足夠的能量去應變然後要更進步 而我們統統阻擇的人業務單位統統沒人在想這些 這就不對了當然立委剛才跟你們說你補充 你說要收購 你去補單位沒能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12142.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12157.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
還是沒領到換人 我老是跟你說啦補充是要找一個有領的出來先這樣子好了好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝林思文委員的發言謝謝部裡面的回應我們下一位麻煩趙偉 廖偉祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12173.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12178.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
謝謝主席那有請彭部長有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12182.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12206.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
委員好彭部長好其實我也是要繼續剛剛林淑芬委員的問題我想這也是非常大家非常關心的那在本次的這個畫家沙颱風造成的這個堰塞湖的溢流的災害中下游的這個光復鄉鳳林 萬榮這些地區都遭到這樣子的洪流沖刷大量的泥沙土石所掩蓋 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12207.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12237.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那你在受訪的時候有說儘管淤泥量巨大那這些泥沙的土質相對的良好環境部門將會積極評估是否可以進行分類處理將其部分回收再利用而不是簡單進行的處理那這部分我是不是可以理解部長你就是願意負起這個青運的責任主責而且並且是樂觀的看待這些泥沙或者這些災害後的廢棄物的這些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12238.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12254.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為它量很大我們是垃圾加淤泥大概十幾萬噸幾十萬噸然後淤泥的部分幾十萬噸的range到底是多少因為你從十幾萬變幾十萬那幾十萬又到快將近一百萬那這樣子大概是多少大概是一百萬噸以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12255.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12273.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
就是因為市區所以我那種十幾萬噸跳到一百萬噸以內不一樣因為十萬目前清出來十萬噸是淤泥加上垃圾垃圾混在一起然後另外一個是還有很高比例的是只有淤泥跟土砂那農業部大多數的大概有六七百萬噸是屬於這個淤泥 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12276.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12296.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
對 所以我們剛剛說這個你說混雜的需要去把它這個篩分出來的對的量體可能快到100萬噸應該最多可能會到100萬因為有很多郊區的還沒有被清出來那還有一些是屬於這個垃圾掩埋場的垃圾飄到農地去的所以我們估計大概100萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12297.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12319.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
所以你從十幾萬噸跳到快100萬噸對 我們是用100萬噸的量來做估計的好 部長你這個部分真的要很務實的面對不能這樣子數據Range差太大這是好幾倍的差異而且目前 清到目前為止應該你們應該有一個大概的估算了吧那你從十幾萬噸跳到快100萬噸這個的確是一個很大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12320.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12331.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
對 因為我們現在清的是市區然後還有一塊是農田的農田的這個垃圾加淤泥那一塊那個是幾十公頃很大所以那一塊我們算進來整個大概是100萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12333.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12360.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那這個量體非常大等一下我們再繼續問下去好了那也隨著大家的通力合作之下大家當然有很多的志工或是中央地方單位其實一直清出來的量也越來越大像你剛剛說的幾十萬噸到幾百萬噸在農田的 在市區的但它也衍生出一些問題比如說你挖出來的泥土它就堆置在房屋或是社區街道旁的空地 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12360.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12381.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那還沒有來得及清運那現在可能是一堆泥土丘但是如果一下子下雨呢又被這泥土又沖到居民的房屋內也造成潛在的安全那如果沒有下雨剛剛也有提到沒有下雨的話陽光的曝曬也會讓它裡面的有機物質開始揮發 開始發臭 發酸那目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12382.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12403.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
接到的狀況就像是這樣所以雖然說報導出來之後大家就很快的就是去想辦法清掉 清理完畢清理完畢可是因為它量真的很大那如果沒有被媒體報導的地方是不是也有這樣的問題而且你們的處理步驟怎麼樣它乾掉之後到處飛這個怎麼辦包委員 這個都是暫時的就是說有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12404.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12420.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
但我們的市區主要的市區已經乾淨了但是有一些市區的旁邊的郊區有一些小空地的話他們因為居民隨時都在清出來所以這樣的土堆一開始很多但是現在是越來越少當中所以我這個只是一個暫時在那個地方那還是會清到我們的站置場去 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12421.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12437.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好那我另外再繼續問那排水側溝堵塞的問題也很嚴重所以剛剛前面也有委員有問到那也要趕緊處理那我想要請問一下他這個也會遇到兩個問題第一個我想請問以你們現在的話你認為什麼時候可以完全處理完雙十年價錢可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12439.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12467.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
沒辦法因為目前這個是國土署在主政那國土署他們有詳細的算這個水流估計然後目前湧射了多少那昨天的數據是30公里裡面清了10公里那也謝謝很多的志工的幫忙在很多的測溝先那個測溝下面先挖出來那個基本上都是土砂為主並沒有什麼很大的一個廢棄物在裡面是以土淤泥為主所以目前來看的話的確我們希望10月18號這個基本上可以通 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12468.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12486.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我覺得這個在清理的部分可能也要請你跟這個指揮中心說剛剛有提到因為這裡面可能有很多的病菌細菌等等的相關的問題現在去幫忙協助的這些志工有沒有獲得完全的訓練或者裝備相關的他知不知道要怎麼去處理這個事我覺得這個可能可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12487.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12514.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
因為我都在現場去處理這個過程甚至我們給那個志工那個清淤的掃啦那基本上我看到志工他們因為當地有很多山林人士他們都有戴護目鏡口罩整個配備大概都有所以我們當然是以保護志工的安全那當然啦戶外一定會有些意外啦對部長不是我是覺得就是你看就是你的感覺都是講比較感覺性的東西我覺得這應該也是一個所謂的SOP的問題因為我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12517.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12544.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
面對所謂的這種災害的韌性當然志工也是一個環節幫忙投入去救災是個環節可是他究竟在這個救災的過程中你是不是應該依照這次的經驗然後充分的教育然後充分的看怎麼管理我覺得這也是我想我覺得要透過部長或者是包含這個時部長到時候應該是要在這次的經驗裡面要反映到中央指揮中在這個中央指揮所裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12545.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12565.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
應該要把這些東西記下來而且變且現在就要實時的去教育那再來有些淤泥啊你們現在採取戰製的方式但是大面積的泥土現在堆積的場域也是個問題所以例如在這個台九縣道路還有台塘土地裡面也都有堆積這些戰製的泥土 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12566.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12587.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那這也可能造成這個原本的這個場地功能喪失那這部分呢場地的調度應該如何處理然後也再來就是希望我們是不希望看到這個所謂的戰志因為未來你根本不知道怎麼好好的處理而且處理的時間不知道多久變成了永久戰志本來所謂的戰志變成永久擱置在那 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12588.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12608.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那所以導致現在的這些泥土就放在那結果風乾以後現在只要乾了之後它就變成塵土然後塵土飛揚就跟沙漠地帶沒有兩樣所以這種現象小的話它影響了視線大的話也會影響空氣品質而且在花蓮以往在災害發生之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12609.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12631.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
早就是有這種年年這種東北季風來的時候呢有很多的季風吹拂那就可能導致這個沙塵暴或甚至讓當地市縣行車市縣不佳的問題所以這個部分請問部長要怎麼處理然後以及所謂上面這個戰志的淤泥到底你們有沒有能力處理以及你到底要怎麼處理未來在這工作流程上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12633.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12661.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
其實包含紀政委開始進駐之後其實整個效率統合的縣政府速度顯著變快那每個這個村都有指揮官協調官還有軍方的也在協助招喚志工所以其實指揮的體系是相對的跟過去相比健全很多那委員你這張圖呢是應該是第一個禮拜很亂的時候當地的幾乎是交通阻塞了完全是一個在戰場當中所以現在的這個情況已經不是這個樣子我們有覆蓋上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12662.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12676.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那這個呢也會近期也會把它清走到我們其他的大型的戰事場當中所以基本上呢我們先解救民眾的安全這種長期的問題是長期中長期的事情分兩個階段所以我們一定會確保把它完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12677.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12702.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我是認為現在當然有短中長期的計畫和短中長期的目標但是你現在應該就在中長期就要規劃怎麼處理了所以因為現在短期大家已經在這個迅速的希望恢復災區的狀況可是這些東西是的確是一個中長期問題所以我剛說了我們不希望看到戰志變成永久擱置在那裡你到底要怎麼處理所以我們已經在規劃了 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12703.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12725.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
對 所以你剛剛講說這個照片跟現在可能不一樣我也要表達是說我們希望的是在講你的中長期的規劃要怎麼處理它那再來這些泥土中當然不只是天然的這些砂石可能也可能參與一些有毒物質那包含媒體報導在說在整個這個災害的復原的過程中可能在中學結構的側溝裡面發現有農藥罐的破裂啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12728.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12746.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
散發這個刺鼻的意味啦也造成部分居民不適送醫那所以請問這個環境部對於這個部分已經掌握的這些污染種類與濃度有哪些那再來就是你們會不會持續的進行所謂有毒物質的監測或者是本次災區其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12747.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12775.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
地方你們有沒有都去做一個盤點和測試報告委員那個其實先把市民住的地方能夠清乾淨這是我們環境部還有整個指揮協調所最重要的一個責任那這個是一個單一的個案因為那個地方在那個地方被破掉了那當地也封起來也動用我們的這個清溝車把它都清掉了所以這是單一個案那至於土的部分我們其實已經啟動定期的去監測這個土石的污染有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12775.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12796.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好我就是要講這個但是我覺得部長就是先不用一直說我們短期就是要解決這本來就是在做的事其實一直要講就是說你的下一步你可能要先想好我舉例好了有些時候好像大家可能會覺得再去缺什麼物資然後一窩蜂的用過去但是其實他下一步他目前需要的已經是足夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12797.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12815.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
他下一步呢接下來我們現在想的是他的家園恢復之後要怎麼提早幫他規劃所以我講的意思是這樣我們將提點我們現在問的問題都是希望說那你下一步要先想好所以最後再也簡單再問一下有關於這個居民跟居房的清理最後的最後一里路 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12816.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12834.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
其實我們的團隊本席辦公室團隊也有去現場擔任志工那也遇到實際上說清洗車不足的問題那我想問部長這部分是不是有去協調啊調派相關的資源讓最後災民的房子能夠完成清洗然後真正回到災害前的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12836.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12860.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
一開始這個全台的各地的車子全部都湧入了所以當地都大塞車那些車一開始是沒有用的後來呢就回去了現在呢我們也要再拜託他們再回來所以說真的委員好好的調度是很重要的沒錯這就是我們想要表達的因為這個災害發生的時候其實我們一直在強調所謂的韌性韌性韌性可是災害發生的時候你說全部的車都湧 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12861.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12888.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
湧入 這個時候你並沒有達到資源的有效應用結果你讓他回去 現在要再回來不是我讓他回去的不是你 不是你我會說這個整件事情這個在整個災害發生的時候這個可以之後再來檢討對 所以我認為在這一次的過程中環境部也有一定的責任把你們所屬的業務包含所謂的災害的廢棄物的清理然後面對這次的災害你們未來SOP是什麼你的流程是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12888.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12903.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
然後包含一開始我們凸顯的就是說你那個估算的值啊差異這麼大沒有客觀的估算你怎麼去真正的設計未來這個整個工作流程你要怎麼去解決他這是我要講的那再來呢謝謝彭部長我想要請勞動部紅部長以及我們的這個石部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12915.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12935.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我想要一起問的原因是因為其實今天還有一個很大的問題就是說這次的讓大家看到台灣人很有感情和溫度的地方就是我們志工大量的湧入對不對所以剛剛有說這個第一天第一天4萬多第二天4萬多然後瞬間三天湧入大概12萬多的這樣子的志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12936.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12954.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那災區有很多的志工這些都是有熱情也關心這個土地的民眾那因此他組成然後過去那但是有專業的人士當然有一般民眾純粹是因為熱情然後想要去救到了現場但是就會有一定的危險性所以我們昨天也看到這個挖土機的 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12955.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12983.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這個公司的老闆在災害中受到了工作傷害受到了傷害這個結果最終導致送醫不治這樣的憾事所以我想在這整個過程中呢我們勞動部跟我們衛福部在這部分你們究竟有沒有達到所謂的教育訓練或者是事前宣導這樣子的動作的流程那你們各自可不可以講一下在你們的部會應該怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12985.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13005.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我還是要先跟委員說明因為就那個林老闆的這個案例目前我們還在跟家屬那也包括跟他的工協會在確認他到災區的救災行為是單純的志工行為還是有在執行有這個勞務對價的職務我們還在確認這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13011.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13027.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
所以部長您這有兩個層面針對這個案的層面是一個這個案層面要請部長趕快去確認我們才知道說後續應該怎麼做所以這等一下本席也會問到但是另外一個層面就是說面對這麼大量突然來的志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13028.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13044.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我相信如果有妥善的教育訓練或是妥善的安排不會發生太多的憾事可是其實目前為止聽到也非常多的狀況包含所謂的熱衰竭包含著輕側溝的時候手指被壓斷包含這個因為傷口感染 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13045.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13059.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
好 那我覺得大家秉持著一個熱心到了現場但是我們沒有統一的指揮調度跟沒有統一的做教育訓練我覺得導致後面的這些憾事我覺得是一個比較我們也需要去檢討的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13060.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13076.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
第一個是說因為的確這一次志工的數量真的是超過我想過去我們其實在這個很多救災的過程裡面其實預估因為過去我們比較比較多沒關係部長那我這種比較組織性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13077.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13103.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
部長所以我想要問我們現在有請職安署我有請職安署那針對現在如果志工的這些作業行為那尤其是如果這個涉及到安全防護的話那請職安署我們來跟相關單位包括在現場他的一些虛工的需求的單位來去確認那我們會來定一個相關的指引跟注意事項所以換句話說就是這一次是並沒有做到沒有做這個宣導安全作業上的安全的職責對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13105.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13117.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
應該不是沒有做到其實我想陸陸續續包括行政院包括其實一直有在跟大家說明說在安全上面要去注意然後哪些東西注意那當然我們現在也我們會把這個部分再訂的更仔細一點這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13118.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13139.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我認為這是完全需要這個去檢討的地方也包含衛福部這邊你們說拍宣導影片可是其實這好像都已經很後續了在事前都沒有做一個充分的出來的時候發現有很多志工要去之前本來有多少志工你就應該最好是可以統一的去做管理和調度才不會需要專業人士的時候到現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13140.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13167.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
不知道要幹嘛然後專業人士去做不需要專業人士做的事然後不專業的人去做需要專業人士或是要有足夠裝備去做的事情我覺得這個部分是不是應該要包含衛福部在之前教育訓練的時候比如說你有傷口你在清測溝的時候是有問題的你是不能夠去做這件事的你可能會感染或者是像勞動部雖然他們並非是勞工可是比如說什麼熱衰竭的這個宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13168.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13193.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
你要一定要怎麼樣補充水分我覺得這個你們應該要訂出一個SOP對吧跟委員報告就是說按照志願服務法如果你這個是這個有組織性的志工團體他每年有一定的那個教育訓練的時數那至於他的教育訓練內容應該涵蓋哪一些我們可以訂一些指引讓大家未來都是可以你的指引要儘速訂出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13194.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13219.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那第二个当然这一次是比较意外的是这个志愿性发动有民间发动的这个就是没有比较不具组织性的这种志工那这个量确实是过去没有遇到过这么大那运用的单位也各自不一样但是呢我们有针对健康的部分特别是这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13221.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13235.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個自我保護的部分有提出來包含飲食 傷口還有清潔等等這些我們有特別去提出這個我們把它納入未來固定的時候去做提醒這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13236.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13259.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我認為這次應該要交一個類似面對災害的這個檢討的報告就是等事後等現在救災到一段時間可是這個過程中你們都應該要把它記錄下來這個才是所謂的韌性在改造不然我們過去一直講韌性韌性這一次看起來就是海水退了就發現我們的所謂的韌性計畫投了錢然後要做這些事結果沒穿褲子 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13260.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13270.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好那我想要再進一步問就是這位不幸的這個挖土機超人我們林老闆所以剛剛目前說行政院說會發20萬位問津那剛剛我們的勞動部長我們紅部長說要先去確認說他這個關係到底是不是符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13277.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13291.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所謂的這個因為職業災害導致的問題然後他們有沒有被收顧或是完全是志工這個是部長現在所要去確認的嘛好那今天再麻煩部長要儘速確認但另外我想要請問喔就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13292.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13309.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
如果他就是志工的話就保險層面的理賠是不夠的那目前說行政院說發20萬但是依照衛福部的辦理災害救濟捐款專戶衛問金發放要點的第4點第4項這個部分衛福部是不是可以進行專案處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13311.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13333.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
這個部分畢竟他是一個志工然後他真的到現場或是他去現場幫助救災所以導致他喪失他的生命那他又是他家庭跟公司的頂樑柱所以我認為這20萬是遠遠不夠的那這有沒有可能是可以比照災民的慰問金用專案的方式處理這部分請衛福部長 石部長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13334.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13359.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
跟委員說明就是我們在這個死亡慰問的部分是分兩塊一個是公務預算的部分就是20萬我們現在的災民都是這樣處理那另外一個呢是由這個震災基金會的募款去支應的那個是80萬那那個是要用是按照這個他的辦法是天然災害致死啦所以這個條件上的確實是不符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13360.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13376.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
所以也沒有辦法用專案的方式他這種算不算天然災害完然後去救濟然後致死去幫助志工致死因為這個未來會有很多不同的這個判定上會很困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13378.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13407.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
好這部分我希望說部長要回去研議一下就是說這有沒有可能是專案的方式來處理不然當然我們覺得是先等待這個洪部長他確認完他的這個身份或是他的補助的這個救濟的辦法裡面他到底是什麼身份去那裡救災我覺得這個部分等勞動部出來之後邀請石部長去研議說如果他的這個補償是不夠的有沒有可能用專案的方式進行好 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13409.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13438.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
好 再來就是在重大災那個洪部長您可以回座位我再接下來問石部長在重大災害中那災區的物理復原可以那還有大量的資源流入所以加速復原但是災民面對的心理創傷是很難平復的那我知道你們現在當然有心理支持但我想要請問那針對這樣的心理輔導支持方案有沒有同樣開放給這些所謂的產子超人或是志工來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13439.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13455.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
因為其實在921的時候可能很多志工到了現場看到滿目倉儀的狀況他回去也是有心理上面需要被支持的方案那想要請問一下部長這部分跟我們報告我們有一般性的這個目前有的心理支持包含專線 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13457.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13478.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
1925包含這個就是一般性的部分然後我們為了這個災難我們會再起一個案子就如同委員這邊秀出來的PTSD這個創傷症候群是在往後可能會出現的所以他需要心理的支持所以我們會在這個禮拜內就會提出下一個階段的心理支持方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13480.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13496.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
會納入那個包含救災的還有志工的好我覺得這個部分很重要請部長好好的處理那最後一個問題請問部長目前針對災民的健保費減免因為花蓮有去年大地震的時候減免的潛力那目前有沒有規劃如果有預計減免什麼時候我們會比照 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13500.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13518.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
然後按照這個行政院所公告的災區那災民的醫療費用三個月的這個醫療費用裡面的部分負擔都是免的那另外健保費的部分是六個月免繳所以就是這個部分要那什麼時候預計什麼時候實施開始實行 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13520.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13549.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我們應該這個禮拜內就會公告了好謝謝 謝謝石部長所以我想要總結以上基本上過去可以看得出來過去我們一直不斷的在喊所謂的任性任性然後災害任性常常跟日本交流也說我們都是天災很多的國家我們要互相交流所謂任性的計畫面對災害的可是這一次面對到這樣的災害可以明顯的看出來我們的準備是完全不足夠的而且也沒有真的在制定所謂面對災害的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13550.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13577.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
韌性計畫SOP這個流程甚至連估算都有問題然後連志工的訓練或者志工的這個管理統一調度都有問題那我認為這次要藉這次的機會應該要等要開始去把這個過程中可以吸納的經驗全部都吸取下來然後制定一個下次面對災害的時候才可以有真正的韌性而不是口號 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13578.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13587.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
對於志工的動員我們會再來檢討好謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員的發言也謝謝各部會所長的回應謝謝請王振旭委員發言好謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13603.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13630.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這次畫家殺颱風造成馬太安溪的這個菸塞浮的議題引發非常嚴重的災情本席真的深感痛心請向不幸罹難的民眾致上最深切的哀悼也誠摯的祝福所有傷者都能夠早日的康復當然在這個悲傷的時刻我們也看見台灣的希望就是全體國人的團結 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13631.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13657.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
在救災的過程裡面各界出錢出力而且展現出一股強大的力量創造屬於台灣的奇蹟那這個奇蹟剛剛也做了非常多的檢討那許多民眾都默默的奉獻了愛心也更要特別感謝堅守在第一線的公子人員跟國軍弟兄們還有八卦姐妹們他們不眠不休冒險投入守護的家園還有人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13658.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13684.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
展望未來本席能夠期盼政府都能夠持續強化防災的韌性完善救災的資源配置並且能夠建立更周全的應變機制讓台灣在面對天災的時候能夠更加的堅強能夠守護人民的生命跟財產的安全這是我們今天的主題就是希望能夠做好災後的復原 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13684.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13706.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那在這個災後復原的過程裡面剛剛也聽到了三個部會的部長們做了很完整的這個口頭報告那我們也看到其他部會的書面報告看起來這個救災的進度是有在大幅的往前推進當中當然現場還是有許多需要再協助的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13707.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13723.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這部分災後的重建真的從百工百業都是有需要的這個人才人力都需要透過更好的協調機制來做處理包括像泥作水電木作清潔人員等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13723.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13737.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那這些人才跟人力需要我們的勞動部來做一些統籌那可不可以麻煩勞動部的洪部長我們一起來討論有關於這個災後復原所需要人才人力的部分黃委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13745.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13761.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
部長好 在早上您的口頭報告裡面有提到這個災後勞工要處理的四大協助的措施裡面就包括天災臨時工作津貼 職業訓練有補助等等而且是秉持著從簡從速的這些原則來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13762.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13787.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那這部分請教部長就是有關於勞動部有沒有跟地方政府來合作來盤點相關的人才還有他們在處理的過程當中哪些工程行或者是公司如何運用人力他們的需求到底在哪裡哪一些的地方是需要有更好的精準的災區必須要去投入到人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13788.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13805.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
早上您的口頭報告裡面也針對於之前的經驗有關於嘉蘭地區的颱風用人跟上工其實是有很好的契合在有關於好雨的部分也能夠讓上工的人跟所需要的人是有很好的契合 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13806.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13828.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那這一次所碰到的災害好像又有別於之前的這個颱風跟豪雨所造成的問題就好像林處委員所提到的我們在未來處理這部分的時候如何能夠做好更精準的準備 部長好 跟王委員說明的確因為我們有一個這個天災臨時工作的津貼的這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13830.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13857.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那會由勞動部來補助不管是最低工資的時薪跟最低工資的月薪那這兩週的時間其實包括我們發安署黃署長其實也一直跟我們北分署因為這個花蓮地區其實比較算是在我們北分署的這個相關的轄區裡面那我們一直有跟地方政府也跟地方的這個鄉鎮公所一直在聯繫跟他們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13858.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13886.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
如果他們有這個用人的需求勞動力的需求的話那我們這邊有一個這樣零工津貼的計劃可以讓他們來做申請那的確但是因為這兩個禮拜其實因為這個災區裡面的志工還很多所以其實有一些相對比方說一些清掃清理的工作其實目前是志工在這邊在擔負比較多的工作包括志工跟國軍擔負比較大的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13886.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13913.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
所以目前這些我們認為可能潛在會有用人需求的單位包括地方政府包括鄉鎮施工所我們其實都跟他主動一直聯繫他們目前還沒有提出比較多的需求所以後來我也請我們書裡面我們不只是問他有沒有需求甚至我們幫你申請只要你說有只要你有需求我直接幫你申請主動幫你來提交案件等等我們直接幫你把後端的事情全部都完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13915.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13936.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我們現在比較預期可能會是在比較後段可能進入到重建階段的時候到時候可能志工的人力會下降的時候可能會有比較大量的零工的需求但我們都時時刻刻一直跟地方政府跟地方的公所來去掌握他們到底需要哪些相關的人力我們怎麼樣來協助這部分其實一直密切跟地方政府保持 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13937.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13960.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
聯繫是可以理解就是地方政府本身有很多事情要處理而且現在其實蠻混亂的狀態如果可以的話跟當地的公會或者是相關的這些他們掌握到人力的部分的需求的話應該對處理的事情應該會更精準這是部分也麻煩署裡面可以持續來做主動的進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13960.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13979.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
是 其實我們現在還有包括我們有個賠利就業計畫那這賠利就業計畫其實也可以跟地方的一些團體一些工協會來去做合作如果他們用人的需求的話我們一樣也可以做相關的薪資的補助好 我們很期待能夠持續的來做精進那第二個部分就是有關於勞工災民的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13980.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13993.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
部長早上有提到在這個災民如果出現了相關的勞保救保跟災保個人負擔都可以免收以外那同時也提供六個月的保費補助跟六個月的傷病給付等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13993.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14018.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那這個是依據勞動部是透過地方縣市政府所送的這個災民的名冊來主動的比對那災民就不需要再申請這真的是一個對災民的勞工朋友來講是一個很大的得勝我們比較擔心的就是會不會有名冊缺漏跟他後續衍生的問題那如果有的話那有沒有什麼好的機制或處置模式來解決這種困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14020.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14043.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
因為這個目前的這個相關的勞保包括勞保救保災保的相關的補助其實是每次因為這是按照這個災防法那我們都會啟動的計畫那按照規定確實都會需要地方政府來提送名冊那我們這次當然希望我們能夠來主動把它比對所以我們其實昨天應該已經有發函給地方政府請地方政府提供名冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14044.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14072.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那我们现在当然还在等地方政府来提供我们相关的这些灾民的名册那只要他提供来我们就会马上作业对是我们比较担心的就是万一缺了的时候会导致说没有被补助到的这些老公朋友他会觉得非常非常的让他感觉很受伤如果有老公朋友发现有缺漏啊或者是没有被地方政府划进去我想他不管是跟地方政府讲或跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14073.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14100.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
跟我們來講我們大概都會可以來協助把這些相關的程序給完成我認為這不是太大的問題OK 好 就是要把它做得很周延跟完整再來有關於這個剛剛我們提到很多是志工的人力其實更重要的重建的部分是希望能夠透過當地的民眾如果他在外地工作的話那有機會能夠回去協助家鄉來救災來恢復家園 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14101.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14128.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這一部分其實我們看到鴻海集團他們在這個過程裡面拋出了三個方案就是捐家電 協助獎學金更好的一個部分就是員工有薪假讓他返鄉能夠救災這一部分的地方我相信未來應該還會持續台灣的相關的天災發生的時候有需要有更好的行政指引部裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14128.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14150.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
有沒有考慮到要來處理這個部分就是將來台灣有任何天災的時候那假設這個需求人力很大那這些勞工朋友如果他是在出外工作那這個企業或者是不管是大企業或者是一些微型企業能不能有相關的這些處理的模式可供遵循 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14151.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14169.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
現在如果老公朋友因為這個要恢復家園的需求或者是返鄉救災的話那目前當然有既有勞基法裡面的市價特休都是可以請那我們其實在昨天其實我們也發了一個新聞稿然後我們也有一個上網的一個QA那包括也發函給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14170.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14187.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那勞工朋友當然是可以跟他的企業來做一些優於法規法令的約定那其實我們也希望很多的企業能夠考量勞工朋友現在因為他的家鄉可能受災所以種種的需要去照顧或者是種種需要去復原 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14189.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14217.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
復原家裡的這樣子的負擔希望能夠多給予這個憂鬱法令的部分那我們昨天其實已經新聞稿跟發函我們都已經發出去那如果王浩元在講的是未來是不是如果遇到天災的時候那都有能夠像有一套處理的模式我想我們這部分我們可以來研議是不是可以更普遍性的針對未來更多的天災的狀況來去做這樣子的訊息的發布讓大家更知道自己的權益或者讓企業也鼓勵企業那可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14218.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14231.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
多考量勞工朋友家裡面的需求然後來給比較優惠的工時或者是放假的待遇這樣子好 那就麻煩洪部長洪部長請回座再過來是要麻煩石部長請石部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14240.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14255.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
部長大家都很關心這個災後復原過程當中所需要的醫藥協助這邊我就是提了一個比較感覺有未來性的處理方式我們也知道在災區用無人機送藥這個是一個創舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14257.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14272.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那當然在其他地方也用過不過很快的這個病人他當他有需要使用藥物的時候透過這個處方的開立三分鐘就能夠把這個使用無人機把藥送到給這個需要的病人這個相對來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14273.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14298.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
是如果能夠有這樣的服務模式的話未來在偏鄉或者是離島甚至是在突然發生災害的時候有一個更好的一個醫療的處理的模式那請問一下目前使用這樣的方式有哪一些地方還需要改善或精進那有沒有法規或擴布或協助的部分需要大家再持續努力的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14299.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14320.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
跟委員報告確實在這個無人機送藥我們幾次這樣演練下來大概分別是技術法規跟程序上還有一些需要克服的挑戰那麼以技術而言包含它的航道還有起降點那麼以及這個飛航能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14324.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14339.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
跟他可以飛多久多遠那個如人機可以飛多遠然後他的載重可以載多重那個這個是需要有這個技術上的克服那不過這個部分的進展比較快那麼我們也爭取的明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14340.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14364.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
之後後面有三年的無人機計畫就是希望把它變成是更普及性的使用這個無人機送藥但是法規面上大概也把它分成三段一個是像這樣的緊急災難的時候使用這個沒有問題因為按照我們這個災防法我們指揮官就可以處理的所以在這一次的花蓮的這個災情的時候有用上 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14364.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14381.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
所以這個是已經法規上是比較沒有問題那麼第二個是緊急醫療的時候的使用第三個是常規像剛剛提到有一些偏鄉的地方那麼或者是沒有藥局的地方那麼用無人機變成是常態性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14382.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14401.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
送藥那這邊還有一點點法規上我們需要去克服那麼包含可能需要搭配這個遠距的藥師因為我們的調劑最後一個交付的這個動作所以當地如果沒有藥師直接要交付到這個這個病人手上了那要有一個用藥的確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14402.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14421.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那這個可能也要再透過另外一個這個藥師的遠距服務來完成還有這個運送過程的這些藥物的我們一般如果是從藥廠或者倉庫出來到藥局需要符合GDP的規範就是優良運送準則的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14422.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14440.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那這一段雖然比較不需要因為這個是比較個案式的服務不需要到那麼嚴謹但是也要能夠確保在這個運送過程當中藥品本身那麼它的因為有些需要能練有些比較一般就可以所以這個也需要一併的去考量這個法規上 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14441.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14462.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
可能需要做一點調整跟指引程序上呢他就可能有跨了好幾個單位那這個程序上我們也會做一個聯合我們未來會去從弄一個聯合的平台讓他的程序也能夠在使用的時候迅速甚至變成是一個像這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14463.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14489.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
地區已經選定好的它可以變成是常態性的那就是一個一年期的計畫等等就不用每一次的程序走那麼長那麼複雜好 如果有需要的話我們儘快來調整那再過來就是有關於在第一時間就有很多的醫療不管是職工也好或者是專業的人力能夠符合當地在處理上的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14490.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14517.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那這部分真的要特別感謝我們的醫療志工還有我們部立醫院軍醫院還有民間醫院包括工會的投入跟資源那我們也看到真的在這個醫療過程裡面需要保護處理不中斷能夠順利的把事情可以做好那請問一下有沒有機會利用這個過程當中這些人力的付出或者是這種熱忱的付出部裡面有沒有什麼適當的鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14518.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14542.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
跟委員報告這個第一刻時間真的是很感謝在地的醫院那麼優先投入包含花蓮慈濟 花蓮門諾我們的部立花蓮醫院花蓮國軍醫院 育理醫院等等他們就先前進災區的所以他當時候的所有的這一些醫療的服務我們都先按照這個IDS的這個給付方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14543.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14569.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
它有兩種一種是論量的一種是開診室的所以我們是用開診室不論病人多少先用開診室如果病人多的話它用更好的給付方式所以以這個IDS以醫師為例一診就是6000那同時我們再加三層所以用這樣的方式來做這個津貼鼓勵希望有實質的鼓勵那其他的部分也麻煩鋪裡面做一些更完整的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14571.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14592.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
是所以有再其他補充嗎不用 暫時就是那就謝謝謝謝執行長謝謝部長部長請回座最後一個問題就是有關於災後重建所需要的環境的清潔我想剛剛太多委員真的這個問題除了很擔心以外其實大家也希望有一個更好的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14593.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14608.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那這是需要一個跨部會的協調作業機制大家很清楚的看到問題是所在還有目前面臨的困境未來如何能夠減少這種帶來的對環境的影響或者是對於現有的狀況之下所帶來的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14609.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14638.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那請問一下部長有沒有一個跨部會的討論跟協調作業機制的這個運作在進行假設全部都是用自己部裡面的資源或者是需求來看的話似乎是不夠的那跨部會的運作其實我們也瞭解非常的辛苦困難還有在協調上有諸多的一些不方便的地方那請問一下目前跨部會的運作是如何來啟動那進行的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14638.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14668.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
好 包委員我們在花蓮的那個前進協調所已經有好幾個署長一起坐下來討論這個事情所以我們有初步的這個概念然後而且每個部都自己要提出自己的預算在追加預算的時候可以提出來因為這件事情是非常嚴重而且蠻難處理的問題我們有我們的農業部還包含了這個經濟部水利署甚至還有國土署未來還有這個財政部的國有財產署所以其實應該是五個部會要一起動 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14669.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14687.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以這個10萬噸的淤泥跟垃圾有具體的時間表跟責任的分工嗎我們的經驗 也報告委員我很坦承的說過去的經驗在台灣過去幾十年來大概都要兩三年才能夠去化因為它的量實在太大不是說一兩天就可以解一兩個月就可以解決掉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14688.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14713.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
所以我們先會不要影響到民眾的生活先放到一個地方然後要花時間而且那個去化一定要有價值的再利用不是去把它埋起來所以一定要找到一個合適的地方要花點時間大家一起來努力謝謝委員 謝謝主席謝謝王委員然後我們宣告待會紅夢愷委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘用餐那休息後繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14717.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14728.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
請郭國文委員發言謝謝主席有請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14732.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14758.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
國務委員好部長好我想這個災後的這個清理是非常重要且關鍵不只是這一次花蓮的災情當然是颱風在台南所造成的災情的處理其實當初本席一再要求說有關於石明瓦的這個清潤的部分要一條龍來做處理目前的進度就我本席所理解的部分預估的1.5萬噸當中已經清理了1.2萬噸這個部分本席願意肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14759.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14778.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
不過在清理的過程當中有發生了一些問題第一個 我們實名地圖的製作其實會讓大家更有清楚的知道說實名網分佈的情況到底是如何我是希望說這個實名網分佈你在清理的過程當中要有新的實名網地圖的一個製作這才能比較基礎然後才能看出你的成績 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14779.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14806.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
但同時也看到一個問題就是說你在石棉瓦清除的過程當中你又發現掩埋的地方不足目前河脈的掩埋場大概只有三處之多以至於這個價格節節上升預算不斷的追加累積起來超過20幾億但我還是期待說這石棉瓦的部分在台南居多的情況底下或者嘉義居多的情況底下能夠趨近移民的做法我不曉得部長有沒有這樣的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14806.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14829.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
包委員因為說真的啦我們當然是希望不要油啦但是現在是以壞掉的為優先當然我可以理解那現在目前加護的比較快而且比我們預期的多然後那畜牧場跟一般的事業的部分稍微慢一點點因為要等他們這個兩個部會他們的這個配合進來這兩個目前為止我知道都是在Pending在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14830.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14858.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
那麻煩這個部長既然您主政就盡量居中橫向協調好不好那地方如果能夠把石棉瓦去除到越多當然是相對的環境的安全性就越高嘛但是相對而言我們對環境的要求我們要有一個一致的標準也就是不是這時候災情而已平時也要去面對也就是同樣的樣態的時候我們要去怎麼面對因為掩埋場越來越少再加上我們廢清法一直遲遲沒有通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14859.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14883.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
的情況底下非法請到就越來越多部長 這種非法請到的地方從早期的北土南運然後大家互相在這個比賽非法請到的數量都以零為獲的這種心態就不斷產生本席提供給你的說到底這個廢清法有沒有辦法達到真正的嚇阻作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14885.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14905.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這個趁這次天災你也要面對人禍的問題這非法請到手這部法令你現在要推出到底有沒有阻與嚇阻的作用我請你三思第一個內容第二個程序要加快有沒有可能報告委員我們廢清法的修正現在已經送到行政院我們希望這個會期但是拖好幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14905.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14924.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
對對對 但是我們又加速了我其實是兩個法一個是自願循環對 我是輕輕的跟你講但是很高的期待是 我們很努力已經送到行政院了那我們會拜託再加速什麼時候我們希望這個會期趕快送進來在處理這個會期之前的這個法案的處理的時候有些成年老案本席跟你講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14925.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14934.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
在2013年所發生的在台南有三處台塑非法請到的實會到目前為止已經歷經十幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14938.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14953.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
台塑依然不願意積極面對這個問題三處只清理一處而已另外兩處還累積起來有5.4公噸你想一想 公司協力經過好幾個月的情況底下來把石棉瓦清理了1.2噸就是5.4萬噸 歷經了12年你罰他7600萬 他就讓你罰他不願意去面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14961.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14989.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
類似這種無良的企業不願意善盡他的社會責任沒有顧慮到環境有序又不能公私治理的一個企業單位你要怎麼去要求如何趕快處理這個問題部長 報告委員這個場案我有現場去看過的確是一定要清理但是因為我所知道跟台南市政府也協調過他很皮啊多了兩年 多了啊從2023年6月行政訴訟台南市政府勝訴之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14992.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15000.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
連計畫案都遲遲沒有提出來部長 要讓這種無良的企業持續拖延下去嗎沒有其他的辦法嗎 沒進步了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15003.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15022.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這個部分我們現在剪掉在處理當中剪掉處理之外那行政部門就會等剪掉嗎過去的這個廢清法的確要照這個程序啦那我們現在新修的話我就希望說這個可以加速縮短而且重罰就是廢清法的這個棒子不夠嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15024.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15036.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
你棒子不夠 你不能一直餵它蘿蔔我舉一個例子最近台塑去年的排炭量是全台灣排炭第一名總共高達2423萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15039.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15067.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
一年的稅後的利益大概60億出戶的攤費就46億就是公司治理有問題剛剛沒有辦法永續環境的社會責任沒有三進那個公司治理又出現問題結果你們現在提出一個新的方案針對高碳洩漏風險事業環境部設有優惠費率制度只要企業提出減量計畫並獲得主管機關的核定可折兩折的優惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15069.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15086.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
哇 天啊 這對台塑大利多啊46億打個兩則 剩下9.2億部長 台塑之前的這一些社會責任都未了對環境的破壞都未清除的情況底下這兩則的案子可以讓他通過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15088.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15108.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
包委員因為這個是高碳洩漏它是在淨零這個部分那另外一個是所以我來說都是ESG的部分那我會用其他的方法來希望他們能夠盡速來面對這個問題你棒子不夠粗你蘿蔔又一直給所以誰鳥你政府啊部長你聽我的意思我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15110.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15133.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
若是說你這樣 這三個案的所在你還沒清你錢還給他 對社會很高待主席先坐一下我剛才聽你們超時的時間那麼久你讓我多講一下嘛坐一下啦 休息一下 主席請坐哪有這種道理嘛我講到已經風會大了 你知道嗎主席要幫你解圍啊 好但是我跟你說 這沒道理讓他通過嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15134.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15151.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
主席 我還有勞動部還沒有問我再拖一點時間麻煩回去慎重處理我會來瞭解來處理麻煩回去慎重處理好不好好 可以千萬不要任意通過棒子不夠粗又給蘿蔔哪有這種道理我們請洪部長一下洪部長我會用盡快的時間讓主題不要站太久各位好 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15158.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15186.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我想這一個關稅這個衝擊非常的大你這樣列了一個這一個有關於這個潛在的人數你們最新的人數大概有4萬人會受到衝擊但是減班休息的部分在9月份的時候累計起來大概有310家到7755人之多但事實上你們在8月統計的時候只有15家來申請152個人來也就是說這減班休息的部分在某個程度在民間的當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15189.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15199.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
沒有它的實質效果 為什麼你們過去都有編定10億元在就業安定基金費用我給你看的執行率只有8%所以你們這次特別預算就編了10億 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15201.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15220.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
你們可能要回來好好想一下到底是門檻太高否則的話你這樣基金這邊10億執行率8現在又變成10億那結果呢跟委員說明我剛才講的這個事情裡面有幾個層次我剛才講的其實應該是針對我們那個再充電的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15222.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15241.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那確實我們現在你講的是再充電計畫那我們確實在這一次裡面我們其實把希望給勞工的經濟支持的阻力我們把它放在比較是雇用安定措施的強化板裡面這個雇用安定措施的強化板裡面也是去補貼他的薪資差額的七成因為再充電計畫是他還要參訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15245.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15270.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那規劃安定措施的這個在補貼 精緻補貼是直接如果你納入到我們九個行業別裡面你直接來申請我就會直接給你部長 本席提醒你就是說不要變成複製的概念否則大家不會來申請你會重蹈覆轍就是執行率擴低另外一個部分還有青年的部分也是COVID-19的時候你有出資青年的請求的津貼那時候執行率多少本席跟你查過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15271.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15289.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
就是你每年編定這4億當中就有編定這個執行率大概只有13.76你們這次又編了15億這不是壞事但是我覺得門檻你們要去思考要如何落實這個執行率這是第一點因為我不想讓主席站太久第二個是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15290.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15319.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我再提醒一下就青年的這個尋思今天老實說應該要常態化 制度化而不是只是行政作為而已這個部分本席已經提出修法你們補充回應一下好 我兩個部分第一個部分是我認為我們的確都還有必須要落實宣傳的部分因為我們走訪了這麼多的工會其實每一個工會都跟我們說其實有很多的訊息不一定勞工朋友能夠知道希望我們擴大宣傳這部分真的希望朝野一起來支持我們這些宣傳的經費這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15320.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15345.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那第二點是剛才這個郭源講到說其實在9月的時候確實申請的率還沒有很高但是就公安訂措施來說進入到10月他申請的比率就是高一些原因是因為其實我們當時強化版的公安訂措施是在8月開始啟動那按照規定他要30天的減班休息先有30天減班休息有30天減班休息後他才能夠提出申請所以他其實時間上會有點延遲有30天 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15348.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15376.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
確實現在對於勞工的經濟支持我們希望的主力因為比較簡便是放在強化版的公關安定措施因為他不用一定要參訓因為有些企業會說他已經現在很辛苦了你叫他還要辦訓他覺得現在比較沒有辦法所以現在我們是希望優先是強化版公關安定措施之後後面可以再併領剛才說的這個減班休息的這個再充電計畫現在我們把它設計成是可以併領的狀況最高不超過他的原本的投保薪資目前大概是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15378.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15404.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
並聯然後讓他方便請領然後讓執行人員提高好不好所以我們昨天在這個在充電計畫裡面我們也做了放寬過去其實企業可能要辦訓練要五人以上現在我們把它放寬只要有勞工願意參加就可以那第二個是這個我們也把那個他的原本的期間是要他在減班休息的時段現在我們把它改成是只要在那個期間你來上課就可以所以我們都盡量希望能夠放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15404.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15426.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
期待你的影片後續的宣傳謝謝謝謝主席辛苦了謝謝謝謝國委員請賴會員委員發言謝謝主席好有請那個環境部部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15427.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15449.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
是部長那個主席我會不會準時可是我不會超越很多因為這個未還委員會這個是一個有謀利的委員會大家來到你們這裡就是我們連我們財政的都會超時沒關係我們盡量控制好謝謝謝謝部長我想就是在這個0706丹納斯颱風重創我們整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15454.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15476.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
這個南部尤其是在台南在嘉義我們也謝謝就是環境部對於我們就是很大的一個支持因為事實上就是說在這一次比照這一次的花蓮的一個災難其實每一次有災難的時候尤其是風災水災其實他會帶來大量的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15477.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15502.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
垃圾這個垃圾就像部長講的這個垃圾在去化有價值的一個去化還有環境的一個整理災後的一個重建其實都需要環境部強力的來協助那我們也非常謝謝真的是有難八方來源非常感謝可是今天要跟那個部長探討就是石棉瓦的輕盈的一個時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15503.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15521.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
當然是颱風發生的時候市政府他啟動了一個專案的清印當初登記的是在8月那個就是在7月的下旬的時候有6100件7月29號那就是說也謝謝部長的一個支援我們有7.8億7.8億的一個經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15525.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15542.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那部長你很明快的把這個7.8億把它敲定了讓大家有一個比較舒緩的心情起碼你有錢可以來整理這個石棉瓦還有整理這些垃圾可是到了8月上旬的時候這個清運量已經上升到那個643公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15545.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15568.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那這樣子林林總總我們一直到了9月下旬的時候9月下旬的時候其實累積整個清液量突破了8000噸那幾乎達到前年清液量的2.5倍台南市的環保局其實面臨到一個非常大的一個壓力因為垃圾的一個去化垃圾的一個去化那這個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15570.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15585.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
讓我們也面臨到一個很大的一個困境那部長在這裡跟你請教是錢不夠還是什麼樣的一個環節出現了一個問題昨天我請問了台南市環保局他告訴我還有5778 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15592.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15617.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
這個778萬噸5778萬噸沒有就是說目前還是暫時的累積量我講了一個畜牧場你看畜牧場現在登記出來553個廠次其實才做了61處然後一般的民宅一般的民宅這個都呈現出來一個很大的困難怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15618.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15636.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
其實剛開始你剛剛跟郭委員那個回答的我跟你說郭委員只有一個區他就是七股區 七股區也面臨到一個很大的一個重創我的11個行政區全部都是災損所以你要聽我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15637.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15664.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我每天都在地方所以只有後續來跟你做這樣的一個探討這些石棉瓦怎麼處理它必須要有一個單一窗口一開始在處理的時候因為回到區公所回到區公所那這個很容易就收件了可是現在台南市政府把它搞得實在是你一般民宅在區公所登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15664.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15679.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
然後你工廠在經濟部登記你的畜牧場要在農業部登記那不是什麼每一個人都在罵每一個人都在罵為什麼會是這樣子呢所以要拜託部長你去整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15680.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15695.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
這個有沒有困難 部長因為畜牧場跟工廠是兩個部農業部跟經濟部他們要出的錢我們是負責清運 去化掉所以錢不一樣所以他們的確是要他們來認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15696.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15716.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
沒有 錢不一樣你就是統一收件嘛現在老百姓不管你錢從什麼地方出來的他只是要管你就是說你要不要給我收件嘛你收件起來的時候你應該要求台南市政府你補助他這麼多錢啊你起碼要求他是一個單一窗口來收件啊這樣子才不會造成民怨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15717.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15739.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
委員我們這個來努力一下因為他們那個畜牧場農業部有一定的補助的費用然後工廠也有經濟部有一定的費用那我們來跟環保局討論一下如何整合成一個單一的窗口我跟你講有錢你也有整治就是說清楚的一個區域的一個垃圾的區域的一個方式可是你卡在程序上的話大家就怪你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15741.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15762.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
所以我們必須要有一點智慧來整理這個就是說在後的一個輕盈的指揮中心就是由你來做這個總指揮這樣子的話中央的一個能量跟地方政府才可以有辦法齊心合作我們家園恢復才可以更快速 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15764.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15780.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
環境部不願意擔任這個中央一個統治的角色的話這個石棉瓦就會像多頭的馬車一樣一個效率很難提升啊這個責任大家在那邊互推啊我跟你講那個建山建山就是我們的局長他有能力啊 你讓他走啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15781.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15796.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
你知道嗎 他答應了啦他答應 那這樣更好啊那就表示我們今天的質詢有一個比較具體那我們也希望就是說實面法再輕易可以提出最新還有最具體的一個時程讓民眾放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15797.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15813.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
主席我再問一下環境部因為我們受災的民眾其實身心靈受到很大的一個影響所以我請衛福部部長 市部長這個災後的重建要非常的用心尤其就是說本席辦了12場12場的疫診 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15817.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15833.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
發現到一個問題我們的災民都是腰痠背痛然後還有就是呼吸道的問題但就存在的一個石棉瓦的問題有沒有辦法就是說我知道你在花蓮你做得非常好當然花蓮那個這個整個情況我們其實我們這一個風災 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15836.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15851.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
跟花蓮的這一個災難其實是不一樣的可是有沒有機會就是說在台南的災後重建衛福部貢獻多一點的能量加碼就是我們保護我們的健康擴大有沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15852.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15876.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
跟委員報告大概腰酸背痛這個算是比較短期但是長期有沒有受到這些失眠瓦因為這個對肺部的影響就比較長期那另外還有這個所謂的那個災難後的這個心理支持的部分我們來我來找這個新建師跟國建署我們共同來研議一下對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15878.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15903.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
災區過去這一段時間的就醫請你做一點分析心理支持的部分我想應該可以把它納入在我們未來的支持方案裡面我想這個心理諮詢其實就是在我的疫診的過程當中很多人是看的我本來以為說那個災民已經很軟弱了大概不需要什麼心理的治療結果發現他是比中醫更熱門的一個心理治療更委員報告這個確實在那個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15906.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15934.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
突然間的這個意外或者是緊急事件的時候初期那個CIS緊急狀況發生的時候還不會感覺但是過後之後就會慢慢進入到心理需要復原重建的時候不然就會引發後面的PTSD這個我們來所以我想那個石部長你是醫生嘛你也當然知道就是說在醫療上在災後的一個重建這個其實也是重要的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15934.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15957.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那我希望就是你加碼進來 那個一個月提計畫 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝賴委員發言重新宣告 因為這個孟愷委員他們換順序 所以待會陳寅委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘用餐 休息後繼續開會 謝謝那請洪孟愷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15962.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15969.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
好感謝主席感謝陳委員對調那我們請衛福部部長石部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15977.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15995.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
好 部長還是Follow剛剛的議題因為大家都關心說花蓮現在的救災之後的一個重建回復所以我們先講是說很多的志工朋友很多的超人都投入花蓮的災區那後續有沒有相關的心理輔導措施或是後續心理的一個照顧支持這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15996.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16008.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
會跟委員報告我們這個禮拜就會提出一個接著下來的我們初期是先針對災民那個受災戶啦或者是災民地限非常重要那個計畫已經有了我們是跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16011.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16028.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
社公司全國聯合會大家合作現在已經開始進入從10月4號開始就進入拆區主要是針對災民挨戶逐戶的做訪視啊然後去了解他們的需求然後需要心理師再轉介照我們的心理衛生中心這個部分連結了 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16029.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16057.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那接下來就是您提的針對志工或是國軍救災人員那國軍當然這一次很大量的投入這個我想後續一定有需求所以我們這個禮拜會再提出一個新的計畫接續在進入到第二階段的這個心理支持那就不只是只有災區的包含投入救災人員因為我們看到每一次的一個救災其實很多人員都已經提出來呼籲就說第一還是需要專業的人員進駐 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16059.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16081.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
感謝大家的熱心但是要專業人員因為災區跟我們想像的真的還是天堂之別對不對 但是跟委員報告即使是專業人員他也會有心理創傷的風險所以我們這禮拜會提出相關的計畫好那再拉回來就是今天早上本學有看到您所謂的保險的部分因為我們先一次也看到這個挖土機超人他不幸的罹難 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16082.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16105.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
才講是說原來工會沒有幫他做保險那我其實也想過就是說志工大量的一個投入那都沒有任何的一個保障當然志工他願意前往其實他就是等於是義務來幫忙可是最基本的有沒有一個開口的合約是可以保障這個志工在那邊的一個最基礎的一個保障來 跟委員報告當然這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16107.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16132.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
跟長期而言我們是希望是有組織性的志工因為他們平常就要受一些訓練而不是突然間的投入所以按照這次的狀況我們也看到政府部門呼籲來那組織性的是有保險的組織性的一定有像我們委託的這個社工師他們都是有的那現在就是就自行前來的這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16133.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16154.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那這些自行前來的建議我們是在研議中接下來還是我們昨天本部就已經發一個新聞稿就是先登錄啦就是我們這個衛福部有個窗口那要去的醫療志工先來登記然後我們來派錢登記之後我們就會照冊只有醫療志工嗎還是有任何志工我們目前當然就我們的這個業務主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16155.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16169.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那我比較直接請教因為接下來國慶連假也說不定會有蠻多的志工朋友超人湧入花蓮那他們如果說照這樣的話我們也來不及說在這個國慶連假提供相關的臨時保險我們趕快來跟保險公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16170.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16195.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
談一下因為這個還是要有這個產品保單出來所以我們趕快進行這個跟這個保險工會這邊來討論看看能不能夠志工的運用單位造冊然後來為他們加保部長我希望是因為當然時間大家都不希望看到天災發生這次看到花蓮也是很多的志工投入但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16196.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16211.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
每一次的一個災情就是我們要學習教訓那這一次我們看到可能現在的網路發達所以說大家也願意投入所以過去幾次廉價都可能造冊沒有那麼的落實或說沒有保險那也不幸發生憾事所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16212.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16239.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
本席在講是說未來的國慶連假甚至光復連假那個時候會不會還是有人持續投入我相信有一些不同的都還是會持續投入因為現在是清潔但後續衛生後續醫療等等方面還是需要有些志工那這個要盡速出來那落實造冊以及盡速出來有這種臨時的開口保險合約能夠因應我們希望未來不要有天災發生但如果說有天災發生的時候我們能夠有一個SOP啟動這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16240.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16258.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我們來趕快研議從兩個方向一個是他自願性投保的這個產品讓他揭露讓大家容易也許上網投保或者公會幫他投保另外一個是由運用單位來造冊然後用公費來幫他投保用這兩個方向來研議麻煩部長 謝謝謝謝洪豐凱委員發言請陳瑩委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16277.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16290.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩先請環境部長跟衛福部長請彭部長跟石部長陳委員好兩位兩位好 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16292.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16309.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
我想這一次華家沙的颱風在風災之後我想在我到現場其實請你們上來我主要是要先褒獎你們兩位那當然就是說衛福部的部分其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16310.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16339.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
在風災發生的那個當晚也很抱歉我一直一直在吵衛福部長一直一直吵到三更半夜那也因為我們要也謝謝在衛福部第一時間有就是馬上回應了我們反映的這些災民的問題像健保卡不見了還有送藥的問題我想當下部長都很明確明快的做了才事然後也非常靈活的 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16341.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16356.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
有很多因應的對策這個部分也要給衛福部要加獎接下來目前災區遇到一些狀況就是有一些慢性病或者甚至洗腎的這些患者 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16357.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16378.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
那因為他們洗腎的地方那個診所可能也是變成重災區了所以他們改到育理其他地方那我想在不管是洗腎或者有其他要看病的這些災民接駁的部分是不是請衛福部可以做好這個服務讓他們無後顧之憂可以去做治療 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16379.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16400.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
如果是因為災情的影響造成交通的不方便那個就醫上有障礙我們來研究一下把它劃定出來之後也許我們在那個運用的這個上款的運用方面也有所謂可以用來交通支持的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16400.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16419.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
那就麻煩你們安排一下再來就是說那個心理輔導的部分確實在我們有很多外縣市的年輕人打電話回來就是說你看一下這個圖片就是說這個老人家因為在 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16420.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16448.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
在这个光复那边很多原乡很多的这个独居老人或者年轻的朋友都在外面工作那他们就是看这样的照片大家眼神呆滞也不知道该怎么办我想心理辅导的部分有一个问题你们到目前为止好像都还没有专线那我们专线专线有吗1925那个是我们平常的专线就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16449.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16475.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
我想針對這個部分你們可能再加強一下我們來做專案雖然也有人建議說是不是一站是服務站可以設置但是那邊或許也需要個窗口但是那邊其實很混亂人也很多你們好好研議一下我就做這個提醒跟委員報告我們謝謝委員提醒我們也注意到有所謂的獨老者 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16476.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16493.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
那我們根據我們之前的造冊這個區域大概獨老的大概72位那有大概50幾位是在收容中心所以在收容中心的目前還有人會互相關照那接下來因為要開始回到他的家 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16494.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16521.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
那或者是會短期的到旅宿去居住這個時候我們就要開始做連結所以那個獨老的我們有個專案會來處理我今天大概就舉例這個獨老部分但是我泛指的是其實即便是不分年齡大家都還是會有那個因為包括我去災區連續待了幾天我晚上回去我也是會做夢夢到那個情景所以我想這個部分請你們再多加強好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16523.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16548.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那個環境部的部分我想是這樣就是說其實我剛剛放眼望去有一個人的膚色很斜眼就是我們顏旭明 顏署長他現在那個你現在的皮膚的顏色應該跟我的雨鞋一樣黑了那是這樣因為環境部的部分當然就是說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16550.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16577.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
這個很明顯這麼多的這個淤泥你們的工作量真的很大而且你們還有20里鴻溝人家有10里桃花你有20里的鴻溝還要慢慢清這個都是未來衛福環境部要長期抗戰的部分那因為我在災區的幾天當然也謝謝嚴署長都有及時回應我們在災區遇到的一些問題那我也跟他一起我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16578.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16607.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
還有環管署的幾位工作人員我們到處在找暫時的迷你站置場不然兩邊的淤泥沒辦法清整個交通動線是很不順暢的所以在這邊因為也看到現場你們很多辛苦的同仁所以在這邊也對你們表達感謝但是你們必須要經得起考驗因為後面上百萬噸的這些垃圾還有這些淤泥 泥沙這個就是你們應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16608.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16627.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
要好好加強的部分好那也謝謝兩位我沒有請你們上來主要是褒獎你們啦你應該也十天沒回家了吧十二天好啦好那好謝謝那我接下來請那個勞動部部長請洪部長部長有去過災區嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16635.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16653.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
我還沒這個是這樣我想因為你沒有過去我大概描述一下就是說我們到災區第一站大家會遇到會抵達地點就是光復火車站我描述一下那邊的情況因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16656.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16673.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
因為這次的這個我們華家沙颱風造成這個馬太安顏色湖的破口那這個整個土石流的這個衍生衝擊讓我們光復地區的民眾是遭受到很大的災害 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16674.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16688.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
也因為這樣子的災害我們看到台灣人的韌性台灣人的溫暖所以我們有成千上萬的超人們都湧入了光復那第一站抵達這個光復火車站下車的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16689.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16708.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
前幾天我在現場那真的是一個無政府的狀態現場亂七八糟的走不進去他從火車站快要走不出來然後我們要去搭火車也上不去那滿滿的都是志工雖然很混亂但是很感人那我要講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16711.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16732.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
這個後來在中央開始介入接手之後呢有這個志工登記的這個站的設置那我要講一下我們在登記出這個火車站的時候有一個景象第一天很多的志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16733.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16752.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
沒有人登記可能好幾萬然後再來後續這個站設置之後有兩個就是說志工不曉得要去哪裡的他們就會到那個站報到那園民會也在那邊幫忙那還有一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16753.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16769.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
像我們這種我們就是我們有目的知道要去哪裡我們就覺得我們不用去登記因為登記就要接受指揮他們要分配嘛而我們自己已經有地方去了就沒有登記好 現在問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16772.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16796.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
大家想說為什麼要登記都以為要接受分配其實呢真正去登記志工這件事很重要我也要呼籲未來不管你有目的沒目的都拜託大家去登記因為除了要工作分配以外更重要的是志工登記了這個有保險的問題我這樣講沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16800.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16810.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
其實最應該在第一天就出現在現場的應該是勞動部我要問一個概念就是因為我們看到從這個媒體的報導還有我們在現場看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16816.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16830.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
其實有不少的志工跟民眾已經是被這個玻璃碎片還有鐵片割傷還有這個鐵釘刺傷都有那光是花蓮慈濟醫院截至28日為止已經完成了502例的這個青創縫合手術了 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16833.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16849.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
再加上讓我們最難過的是日前桃園挖土機志工我們的怪手超人在第二天受傷但是他忍痛到第八天才就醫所以結果不幸就敗血症死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16851.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16879.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
我想事前我們沒有看到勞動部有任何的提醒事後也沒有比較任何的有效的作為那剛剛我還很驚嚇的聽到部長的回答說我們要看看他那天是不是上班時是不是在上班還是怎麼樣我想大家對於這個志工跟保險的概念我想全國甚至包括部長都處於一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16880.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16907.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
不是很清楚的一個概念所以今天我想這個質詢我即便超過時間我也不願意我也不願意結束是因為我必須要把這件事情講清楚因為10月10月連假還會有更多的志工會往光復跑我們這個問題今天沒有在委員會講清楚沒有解決後面就會繼續發生更多的憾事所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16908.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
16921.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
我想在這邊問一個概念就是說部長你覺得志工有沒有適用職安法就目前志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
16925.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
16952.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
跟委員報告如果是自願性去工作的話在職安法是以事業單位雇用勞僱關係為前提他是自願性前去工作他沒有事業單位的概念所以是不是用職安法我想這個是不是用職安法職安法或許他沒有寫得這麼清楚但是他整個精神你整個精神去跟他解釋的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
16954.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
16969.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
志工他是適用治安法的或許在一些特定的一些狀況那因為我們這一次這麼多的志工因為政府就是雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
16971.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
16995.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
因為政府也有在呼籲我們需要志工到現場還有指揮調度的問題所以這些連結我想我提供這些你們可以好好的去想一想不要把我剛剛講的話當作開玩笑這些概念聯合加總起來志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
16997.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17015.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
最終我們所以後面我剛剛前面剛剛一直有在呼籲拜託後續大家一定要去登記那這個登記我想還會牽扯到一個問題就是說我們在車站登記的時候他會大塞車 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17017.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17039.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
那大賽車的狀況你怎麼樣讓他比較快一點因為今天如果大家速度夠快的話你們可以快速看是有APP還是怎麼樣大家可以要去的可以提早現場去登記你們自己去想一下那個系統到底應該要怎麼處理那再來我要講一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17041.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17069.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
你们可以去看一下看一下这个就是说你们自己在劳动部113年11月29号才刚修正的劳动部推展劳动志愿服务补助作业要点那这个要点也不是你们现在才定的你们可以做的事情很多除了志工的服务之外呢还有这个教育训练还有这个劳动志工意外事故保险的费用 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17070.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17098.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
我想要請部長好好看一下你們的要點為什麼這一次你們卻是因作為而無作為因要趕快立刻第一時間作為卻到現在還沒有很明顯的作為所以有這麼多的這個志工超人都受傷了然後甚至有的生得病了甚至死亡那勞動部有沒有事後可以補救的措施有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17099.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17116.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
跟委員說明的確勞務我們過去比較管轄的其實是所謂的勞工就是是在一個勞僱關係或者是有一個勞動對價上面的一個關係的這樣子的勞工的朋友這過去是我們比較管轄的範圍是在這個範圍裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17118.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17128.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
所以不管是剛才講到職安法也好 災保法也好其實就法規來說的話比方說如果是純粹的志工的話的確沒有在災保法的適用範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17130.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17153.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那但是我這邊要說的是說確實我們過去在有一些在作業安全上面因為保安商 治安署在這方面比較多一點的經驗所以我們也很願意來提供我們在這個在作業安全上面如果怎麼樣預防防範或者是這些風險管控的一些經驗來給我想現場的這個志工的朋友來作為這樣子的參考這部分我們願意來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17154.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17180.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
對 我想這個要點的部分你們也回去好好再看仔細因為我要舉個例子啦其實環境部他們的這個我剛剛講他的20里鴻溝本來是30公里啦那現在清了10公里但是他們有沒有需要志工很需要但是部長敢不敢登高一呼說我需要志工他不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17181.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17209.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
因為就是牽扯到這個保險的問題也怕志工受傷誰要負責所以環境部長他還很主動的做了一件事情就是他去拜託經管會的主委說拜託你可不可以幫忙協調一下保險公司針對志工來設計這個保單剛剛衛福部長也有講到其實這些可能最早都應該我覺得應該是勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17211.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17226.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
也應該要參與去做的事情那可能部長的表情很扭曲我不曉得我一直覺得這個概念上大家還是有一點模糊所以這個部分我想我今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17228.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17248.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
大概跟委員說明剛才其實我有在下面跟彭部長還有那個石部長我們就在討論是不是怎麼樣來協助志工的朋友那這個跨部會的協助志工朋友比方說有沒有可能用商業保險的方式來去做這樣的加保那這個保險的部分怎麼來設計我們剛才其實就是我們剛才下面的時候就一起討論這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17250.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17269.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
對啦 因為主要志工他有個人的也有團體的那當然我們也不能說針對團體去做而已啦所以各式各樣志工的樣態你們都要掌握要了解然後都要想盡辦法讓這些志工們受到保障才行 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17270.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17293.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
我想大概我主要要表達的是因為在你們要點裡面你們是要商請全國性的志工團體在光復車站也要為這些志工們登記要提供這些旨在預防的建議甚至你們要派員去發放防護用品跟現場走動輔導所以這些你們都應該要好好掌握我想我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17295.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17313.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
我去現場我去看了我有看到慈濟我也有看到有一些社團也有看到民進黨團黨部的這些志工們在現場在協助那但是我沒有看到勞動部的根文說明其實我們因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17316.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17338.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
光復這邊其實是我們北分署的範疇所以我們其實在光復這邊其實我們有一個育理的就業中心那在這段時間育理的就業中心也不斷的跟縣政府包括跟鄉鎮公所去聯絡因為我們其實有一個零工的計畫如果有需的單位我們現在沒有要討論我跟你講你剛剛講到零工的計畫也是個問題今天會去現場幫忙的志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17339.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17363.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
沒有什麼人想要領錢的啦那個零工計畫跟志工是不一樣的事情我說零工計畫跟這不一樣的事情我時間已經到我們會把後續在作業安全上面如果有需要協助的部分的話那我們會來提供我們這樣的經驗讓現場志工在相關的工作裡面的作業安全有多一點可以參考的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17363.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17377.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
對啊我真的很擔心我看你們表情一直就就是覺得我覺得那個志工的那個概念大家還是很模糊啦那但我覺得兩個部會其實都已經清楚了所以麻煩你們加油一下好不好好謝謝謝謝陳英委員發言那我們休息20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18648.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18650.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
來繼續開會請武力華委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18677.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18683.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
謝謝主席有請部長哪一位部長環境部長有請環境部長謝謝吳委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18690.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18718.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
部長您去災區幾趟了我去了三天其實今天早上我的服務處的副主任他也在災區我們可以看得到就是道路的部分都有清理但是還是可以看得到兩側成堆的垃圾跟這些淤泥土石我在上個禮拜去的時候也做過一天的志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18719.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18745.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
那當時呢成堆成山的我是做那個光復國中那個部分我當時就心裡想這一些可能到後期就是我們要來頭痛的部分那剛好今天的一個報告主題是災後復原重建及清理因應作為那請教部長你有沒有掌握到這一次光復鄉這樣的一個垃圾量大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18746.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18767.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
包委我們目前到昨天是清了10萬噸我們預期如果加上佛祖街還有比較偏遠一點點的村進來大概是應該要用100萬噸來算實際上我從夜報也是看到跟部長您說的資料是一樣就是清理了大約10萬公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18769.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18796.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
那麼目前我們看到你們業報上說尋找跟台糖合作六個地方要去佔置這些垃圾大概可以弄到100萬公噸但是我也看到聯合報的版頭寫著說這次的光復鄉災區會有600萬噸的淤土殆清所以我想請教一下部長這樣的部分您預估大概要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18797.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18817.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
因為這個農田上面的淤土大概有六七百公頃大概將近應該是六百五十萬立方公尺這麼大大概七百萬噸基本上那個是農業部在主責的陳部長也跟我討論過非常多次他們那個很麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18818.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18838.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
那當然我們是討論這個淤泥或是土石的再利用那我們的確往那個走那我們過去的經驗像我們的部分至少兩三年跑不掉那他們的話也至少兩三年跑不掉所以這一些垃圾清淤可能要維持到原來的復原的狀態大概要兩三年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18839.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18856.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
就是說我們移到戰事場那逝去的戰事場我們會盡快把它移到離人群比較遠的比較大塊的戰事場有地方了那個部分可能會留持個兩三年左右的時間部長我是在夜報上有看到環境部提出的解決方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18858.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18875.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
大部分都是屬於回田市就是回田到農地 回田到公有土地也有說要成立沙土的儲備中心去標售拿來做活化利用其中有一項叫做水泥原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18876.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18900.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那基本上這個部分其實在前幾天秀林鄉的和平村也就是那個垃圾那個水泥廠的那個部分他們其實已經有得知這個消息還蠻緊張的所以特別想要了解一下因為那個地方的水泥廠它是台泥它是氣化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18901.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18930.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
它不是一般的焚化爐所以它必須要經過分類而且還要乾化處理那另外就是說它的那個地方的環差規定大概每天也只能處理200噸的一個垃圾所以這個部分對於台泥那個地方就是秀林鄉的和平村的村民來講其實他們會有點擔心會不會成為另外一個災民那部長這個部分您怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18930.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18954.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
報告委員因為我也去台泥實際看他們的新的去化廠過那目前的那個花蓮市大概是每天產製的垃圾量170噸那有大概有30噸的空間但是這個跟這個因為我們現在的10萬噸或是未來100萬度都要再篩分垃圾歸垃圾這個泥沙淤泥歸泥沙所以未來呢應該是要逐步的去去化 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18954.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18964.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
然後做妥善的處理一定要分類例如說它是可以燒的木材等等或是不可以燒要別的處理的要做資源回收啦目前我們是朝著這樣方向來進行所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18967.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18990.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
現在也有人提到就是填海造陸部長您有聽過嗎有那您怎麼看這要看喔因為我們填海造陸不可能把東部的這個土砂運到西部去這個整個價值來花更多的錢所以這的確是一個要去規劃的問題那當然啦那為什麼這麼多的學者專家如此建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18992.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19006.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
包委員因為我們是來做實事的人建議都有各種的想法來做但是必須要考慮到國家的財力還有如何去營運所以我們必須務實地來看這個問題所以現在的意思是說我們按照業報上的這幾種方法來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19008.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19022.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
要做個兩三年因為站到過去台灣或是全世界遇到這麼大型的製造廢棄物的經驗至少不是那麼快一天幾個禮拜就可以解決的意思就是說目前提出來的這些解決方案是最有效最經濟的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19023.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19045.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
對 當然或許因為我們現在也還沒有做定案這個除了要去爭取最佳的預算之外還要請到一些專家所以目前我們的確包含農業部也請了一些專家土壤的專家去看說有沒有辦法再做更好的利用因為如果要把它挖起來還要再做土壤的改良這個不是兩三年就可以完成的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19046.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19061.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
因為這個部分如何分離這些淤泥跟垃圾還有這一些營建廢棄物 事業廢棄物這是一個很重大的工程所以具實在話我們看到那成堆成山的這些淤泥垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19062.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19078.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
我們心情也很沉重因為我們也在想我們一般廢棄物都很難處理這麼大量的垃圾到底要怎麼處理這個是一個很重要的課題所以希望我們衛福部這邊部長您要多花點心思那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19079.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19104.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
我們還是要去讓取信於民因為現在大家都是不安心的所以我們還是希望說衛福部中央縣府共同提出光復鄉垃圾清運的解決方式那怎麼垃圾分離堆置場的選擇那什麼樣的一個做法那相關的規劃期程我覺得最起碼要公諸於讓所有的帶地的居民能夠了解可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19104.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19130.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
會 可以 但是委員拜託給我們多一點時間因為我們還在救災 還在處理當地的衛生問題那大概需要多久我們至少要兩三個月 因為我們要爭取預算爭取預算 這最主要的關鍵那沒有關係 那就兩個月好不好好 謝謝 辛苦 謝謝主席謝謝武力華委員賴士寶 賴士寶委員 賴士寶委員 賴士寶委員不在請黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19139.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19140.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩有請環境部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19146.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
19174.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
黃委員好部長好延續上一次質詢的主題上一次在七月颱風造成嘉義那邊的制洪池11.4萬片的光電板毀損那天的質詢我記得很清楚有一個官員站在您現在站的位置上跟我保證99%都已經清理完成了結果後來事後的檢證發現他在備詢台上面所講的完全不是真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
19175.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19199.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
光嘉義滯洪池的部分後續所產生的問題跟爭議我想拖了蠻久了啦後來你應該是你也意識到這件問題的嚴重性你自己也有下去關心媒體上面報導我都有看到但除了嘉義的滯洪池以外我要問的是另外一個比較制度面上面的問題所謂制度面上面的問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19201.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19215.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
大家後來陸陸續續發現光電板對台灣的環境所造成的破壞不是只有在家裡的滯洪次2022年高雄大宿區51公頃的山坡地不用環評變更成光電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19217.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19238.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
當然後來開發的區域跟本來抱準的區域有一些差距所以他也遭到檢察官起訴但是這個例子讓我們看到當不用環評的時候他會出現對於環境、對於自然、對於生態所會造成的浩劫這整件事情就會回到 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19239.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19262.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
之前我在追蹤光電彼岸的時候大概是一個縣一個縣逐步的處理從嘉義處理到台南市屏東的這塊地方是未來會陸續繼續處理下去的問題我們先看當初3D集團的宗家村跟開陽集團的蔡中榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19264.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19278.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
他們共同合資在平娥公路旁邊要通往墾丁國家公園的路上的散破地開發了130公頃的散破地一樣是免環評直接就變更成廣電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19280.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19300.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
當然 宗家村跟蔡中榮針對有關於這個光電廠他們的開發涉及到有關財報不實的部分目前檢調正在偵辦當中但是我必須要說這整起弊案恐怕涉及的不是只有財報不實當初怎麼准的 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19304.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19320.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
問題非常非常的大我們先來看一下當初在開發那個地的時候屏東山坡地的保育區在2021年的時候部長應該可以看得到資料全部都整理出來本來是山坡地的保育區 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19322.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19347.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
結果呢就直接變更成是光電特定專用區這個山坡地的保育區變更成光電特定專用區的這個部分這個是屏東縣政府自己做的決定還是有會中央主管機關這個我不清楚這個你不清楚嗎因為我沒有參與這個沒有關係 那是不是你會後請環境部的同仁去理解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19348.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19368.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
會不會再提供資料給我好嗎因為那個不是在你任內的事情我不會要你負責啦但是整件事情的不透明性非常的高所謂不透明性非常的高這個三坡地保育區啊怎麼會變成光電特定專用區啊這個事情我從公開資訊啊我找不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19369.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19383.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
我覺得非常的虎魚怎麼這麼重要的山坡地保育區就可以這樣幹這不關你的事但是我下一個問題來了之前您提過除了重要的濕地以外之前的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19385.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19411.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
都不需要經過環評然後後來出現了蠻大的問題以後你們應該是在去年年底今年年初的時候頒布了新的規定那依照你們所頒布新的規定這樣的區域需不需要經過環評如果是按照現在的做法的話這是都需要環評這個都需要環評嗎對 按照我們今年一月公布的那所以過去已經準了就準了不用再重做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19412.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19438.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
那你會不會覺得就像我上次跟你講的嘛前面的全部都放啦放完了以後才頒布規定要還平所以搞到你們頒布還平了以後到現在大家都不用申請還平了因為要過的全部都過啦鵝包委還有很多也想開發的例如說我們也被我們退回去要還平被退回去的屏東有好幾個案子所以基本上我們就照按照原來的法規制定走 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19439.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19455.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
原來的法規你講的是修正前還修正後我們按修正後按修正後的規定我上一次問你的時候修正後針對這一種光電區的開發申請了幾件環評上一次你給我的答案是零件到現在累積到了幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19456.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19480.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
之前 最近有送 包含屏東有幾個屏東的三寶 那個被我們退回去那其他的話就是屬於路易福市 其他的還有幾件其他的 這要問農研署沒有關係 一樣 會後 會後目前沒有 目前那個已經被我們退回去了所以只有一件嘛 對上一次是零件嘛 現在是一件嘛因為你剛回答的方式講的好像有很多件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19480.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19503.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
沒有沒有沒有其實全世界的環評光電壓環評也都是這兩年才發生的這個事沒有關係啦先不用扯到全世界怎麼樣我們就針對問題回答嘛我上一次問你告訴我是零件嘛今天我再問你一開始說好幾件現在講了半天只有一件被你們退回嘛那個算是三件三件全部都被你們退回了好來下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19506.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19533.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
水滅型光電廠納入環評上次我質詢你這個問題的時候你們說你們會再討論會再研議嗎目前有結論了嗎目前其實不是只有這個還有其他的項目那因為在我們的環評的裡面的因環評的項目的執法裡面都有一些規定那我們定期都會檢視目前我們已經有就是你們新的規定沒有嗎所以我上次才會問水滅型還沒有你未來會加入嗎我們現在目前在討論這個事情還需要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19535.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19549.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
因為我們剛發了一個問各式各樣的大家的意見 公眾的意見哪些需要加進去所以我們還要一段時間可能一兩個月吧我一個觀念跟部長交換你們拖得越久 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19550.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19565.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
業者要搞就趁這段時間趕快搞包委員不會的為什麼不會現在不是不用環評嗎現在不用環評就跟平東的山坡地一樣啊趁不用環評的時候趕快搞啊等到你們要環評的時候我已經搞完啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19565.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19591.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
過去發生的事情不就是這樣嗎你 你說的那個大樹那個地方對不起我講的不是大樹的地方我現在前一個案子是屏東平和公路旁邊山地集團在搞的最近被減掉偵辦的案子我剛講啦之前不要還平啊依照你們新的規定要還平啊但是之前過了就過了現在拿他沒皮條啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19592.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19620.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
正是因為這樣的思維這樣的政策這樣子的法律適用我才會問你們水面型的環評還要評估多久嗎你說還要研議還要聽取社會各界的意見那我現在擔心的事情是什麼你們研議的越久大家就趁這段時間趕快搞啊我有說錯嗎就趁你們研議的時候我趕快搞啊等你們研議出來頒布法規的時候我已經搞完啊這樣就不用環評啊這樣不是在開 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19623.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19633.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
大開後門給業者嗎這個是我的質疑啊從前面發生的事情我覺得我今天提出來的質疑非常的合理啊部長我有說錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19636.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19665.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
基本上這個也有主管機關能源署他們會自己做判斷要不要還平的主管機關什麼時候變成能源署了能源署他們也是目的事業主管之一所以現在是環境部認為要不要還平這件事情由能源署決定是這樣嗎我們也在修正所以我才問你要修正多久嘛我們現在在預告我從頭到尾就在問這個問題啊我才請教你要修正多久啊我們希望快的話年底可以預告完整年底喔 我們再來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19666.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19670.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
國家風景區內烏山頭水庫設置光電盤要還比嗎這個是2022年的事情 是這個當年是不用的 現在呢現在我們的規定還沒有對嘛 未來可以討論嘛這個不就是我的point嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19685.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19699.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
之前不用啊你新的規定還是不用啊你現在在研議持續的不用啊在你不用的時間當中我就趕快做啊你覺得我現在是在危言聳聽嗎我直接代部長看啊當初山頭水庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19701.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19718.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
前一陣子大家發現上面有那麼大的光電板的時候雨晴一片華藍啊我後來開始去追這個案子的時候發現不得了啊現在做完了只是第一期耶做完了只是第一期耶第二期在哪裡第二期在今年夏天的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19719.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19740.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
人家的法說會就已經講了我們烏山頭不是只有要做一期我們還準備要做第二期烏山頭二期水面型光電籌設作業進行中這個是現在進行式如果是現在進行式的話按照部長剛剛您給我們這麼清楚的法規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19742.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19767.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
生效前生效後現在還在研議當中的說明那等於就是告訴這個業者說現在還沒有規定要還平所以不用還平我們就繼續趕快搞不是這樣嗎這正是我擔心的事情這正是我擔心的事情為什麼上一次質詢的時候提出這個問題我們從具體的案子裡面就可以看得出來我們為什麼要關心這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19770.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19796.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
因為這是現在進行式啊按照你剛剛的說法100%用您剛剛的說明跟解釋這個第二期就不用環評啊 我有說錯嗎還是您認為說這不關環境部的事叫能源署拒絕叫能源署不准他再繼續在烏山頭水庫上面放光電板就好了這到底是誰的權責這環境部的還是能源署的還是你們要先開一個會再決定這是誰的權責部長我有說錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19802.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19829.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
我有說錯嗎沒有啊exactly就是我的問題啊最後一個啦我們大家都要跟時間賽跑環境部要去聽社會各界的意見順便目的事業主管機關經濟部能源署的意見也聽一聽我都尊重但是我現在要告訴部長的是什麼相關的修法我們已經提出來了把它放在所謂的行政meeting當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19831.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19848.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
讓你們掌控本來是希望給你們彈性給你們方便希望你們好好做但是如果做出來是這麼令人失望的話那立法者別無選擇我們就只能透過立法來加以規範好 謝謝謝謝黃委員發言接下來請麥玉珍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19866.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19870.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
主席好有請衛福部部長請時部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19881.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19907.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
部長好 請教部長一下這次那個花蓮風災民間湧入上萬人的職工還有很多新住民 僑生 移工朋友他們的貌責就是高溫淒泥在手腳在淤泥中被玻璃或是鐵片都割到受傷官司外傷就超過500例 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19909.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19921.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
所以我也收到花蓮的災區的志工反應最急迫現在的問題就是現場嚴重的短缺的是急救與正溫醫療的物資 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19924.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19941.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以他们急修的就是说器材包含就是氧气瓶还有氧气面罩接面罩的导管还有就是给养渣温渣渣师用的配件等等这些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19944.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19957.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
這些都是我們職工在現場協助救災 種鼠就是太熱了急救的一些設備所以當我們政府完全沒有提供給他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19959.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19971.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
跟委員報告 我們在救災的災區都設有醫療站因為剛剛所提到的這些醫療器材我還沒有請你回答部長 我還沒有請你回答我收到的 因為我也到現場我也收到他們的陳述還有他們也有找我們協助所以我們講的這些都是他們出錢出力 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19987.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20008.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
出錢出力 我們看到的就是因為這樣子 我們也去了解昨天我們也打電話到我們的主管單位去問了就是說你們有在中央就在應變中心各部會也派人在那邊回應這樣的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
20010.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
20037.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
但是呢人在哪裡為什麼人在那邊沒有回應我們都有公佈有幾個醫療站可以就近去就醫包含現在在佛祖街附近也有一個醫療站所以大家可以到那個地方去就醫那都有合規的醫療人員大家是誰你們的資訊在哪裡有幾個不要說大家都知道哪個大家如果知道就不會找我們已經有六個醫療站我們再提供給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
20038.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
20062.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
好 所以这些医疗站要给我们现在因为很多志工跟我们反映说他们自己要去买我们是救灾很重要我们的医疗站都有准备到医疗站去就医对 但是你们要怎么样把这个医疗站让这些志工知道不是只有你们知道就好讯息都有现在我们政府编列了200亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
20063.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
20071.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
我們都有這些列表都有時間然後團隊都有你們要把這些要到現場給災區給里長給村長給這些有在現場救災的點讓他們去知道不是只是說就是紙上糖冰我們再繼續廣播 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
20086.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
20102.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
所以還有說要請教一下我們是現在編捏了200億的災後重建這樣子的錢花在哪裡我們救災很重要但是我們是後勤這個就是我們的後勤所以這些志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
20104.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
20126.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
不只是他们在灾区是要去那边帮忙的人他们是为你们工作他们出钱出力所以说你们要在宣导宣传的部分还有说不只是救灾的部分还有就是便当或物资发放完全都没有看到是真真的就变成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
20127.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
20144.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我们去到那一边的每一个人的交通都不方便你敢骑那个摩托车在这些污泥有跌倒的也有可能所以说我觉得还有一些小蜜蜂也很缺所以我觉得这个我们要怎么样去 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
20145.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
20173.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
应变中心还有说我们物质的发放人力如果这些我们也要清楚如果不足也跟这些志工讲因为我们在那边很多人就是说里面有很多人还没有领到便当也有很多人是没有领到东西因为他们出不来车也不方便所以我们新住民姐妹 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
20174.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
20189.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
在貨車在東西那邊煮給大家吃他們還會在用貨車把志工載出來還有從火車載到裡面去所以這個都是我們在做後勤的事情所以我們希望說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
20190.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
20216.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
要來把這件事情我們衛福部這邊要把不管是醫療用品我們是救災很重要那邊的災民很辛苦但是後勤他們是幫你們工作我們台灣的溫暖的這樣子的一個畫面這些志工都是加熱去幫忙的他們的需求我們也要顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
20217.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
20233.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
不能說因為這個是給災民的這個就是災民這邊他們這個資工的後勤我們真的很需要我們姐妹還有去募檳榔募那個那些飲料就是 檳榔不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
20235.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
20257.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
但是因为他们开卡车的他们经过就问我们虽然是不好但是他们是开卡车的人他们是找不到他们开车没精神他们跟我们要所以我觉得这个是说我们要的是现场的工作人员他们的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
20258.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
20273.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
跟委員報告我們很謝謝新住民還有移工朋友一起也投入在這個花蓮的這些復原救災的工作很感謝那我們訊息的部分我們是建議因為在這個火車站關府火車站出來那你就有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
20274.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
20301.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
志工的分配站去那邊會引導那或者是到前進協調所的部分呢那他也有一些資源相關的工具啊或者是資源可以在那裡取得所以我們也謝謝委員提供我們這些訊息也拜託委員協助在新住民朋友這邊也宣導在花蓮火車光復火車站出來有一個志工的協調中心另外在前進協調所也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
20302.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
20315.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝我們衛福部再給我一分鐘我再請教一下我們的內政部今天是誰可以來回應的今天沒有內政部代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
20316.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
20335.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
今天沒有內政部但是我們有國土管理署所以我們今天真的很感謝我們的威廉這邊的召委還安排這樣的時間讓我們可以來聽聽我們的救災的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
20337.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
20360.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
但是我們現在花蓮已經是兩個禮拜了就是有18個人落難6個人失聯但是我們災後的關鍵今天是災後護援重建還有清理應應啊對不對但是怎麼我們今天來的內政部的是誰報告委員我是內政部國土管理署 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
20361.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
20380.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
所以說我們今天的主題是我們內政部都災後復原重建清理因應這樣子的主題我們內政部就是國土署來我們的主官都沒有一個人來嗎 市長都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
20382.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
20411.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
对啊 对不对 这个是也要来去了解吧不只是说我们是因为微环就不会次长其他的相关的应变的能力的人或者主观都没有来吧所以我觉得真的我们今天微环要去排就是很重要我们内政是主管监督 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
20412.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
20417.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
我們的內政部的今天排的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
20420.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
20444.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
選務人員就是我們中選會所以說我們選舉比救災重要嗎還有我們是災後護員都不重要嗎我覺得這個真的是我們是政府就是要各部會都要去協助所以今天我們威環這邊有來幫忙去協助說我們要救災 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
20444.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
20463.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
我們後勤的協助但是我們內政這邊說我們是真的內政部這樣子只有拍國土署來其他就是次長或者其他的都沒有過來很忙忙在辦公室吹冷氣看風景是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
20466.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
20482.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
這個應該是就是今天其實有那個任性條例在就是我們樓上九樓也在審查所以部裡面因為這個議題跟國土署比較有相關那部裡面其他的長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
20483.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
20495.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
是在其他的會議室裡面做這個說跟國土署很有關但是我們恢復的重建清理因應的這個部分是國土署的功能是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
20496.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20513.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
跟委員報告一下就是說針對這個就是我們署裡面大概有幾個部分第一個就是說雨水或者是這個雨水下水道的清淤的部分 署裡面會 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20515.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20530.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
跟著這個搭配著這個環境部還有其他的單位一起來做一些的處理那這是第一個第二個就是說後續的復原救災的部分還有一些是相關住宅協助措施的部分包括了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
20531.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
20544.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
租金補貼或者是後續的住宅的重建重構或者是修繕的貸款利息補貼跟租金媒合的部分這個部分都是內政部國土署的業務這後續我們都會來做協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
20547.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
20567.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
好關於這個因為你有講了我就是在我去那一邊就是很多人都房子都清理乾淨但是就是家裡的地下就是那個水鍋完全沒有辦法通所以他們是沒辦法去用的所以他們要煮東西也沒辦法煮 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
20568.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
20595.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
物資要去領的話要走了30分鐘才能去領所以這個部分我希望國土署就要盡快盡快真的像你說的你們要做後面的處理所以不能只是用講的真正的去實施因為我們去到那邊看到的都是大家都是關於這一塊也很重視希望國土署因為署長沒有來所以你們也可以去 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
20596.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
20620.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
真的要去要去真真的去做啦不能坐在辦公室看風景謝謝謝謝委員謝謝蔓玉珍委員也謝謝這個新住民的好朋友們協助救災那接下來換林俊憲委員林俊憲委員林俊憲委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員好接下來換盧憲宜委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
20628.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
20630.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
謝主席主席有請我們園民會請園民會好 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
20644.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
20661.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
杰森你有去過災區嗎有去幾次三次三次喔你是怎麼上去的坐火車下去坐火車OK那我是開車所以開車的時候才可以體會說他們的五大訴求裡面的第幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
20663.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
20684.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
第一項就是安全回鄉路因為其實如果說坐火車當然是最方便可是如果你要去災區去體會的話我是覺得是要坐車去然後你坐車的時候你會體會說那些志工或者是自願去的人的辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
20685.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
20706.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
比如說我現在是從花蓮市要去的話我現在到萬榮鳳林國中然後Google我要去光復國中才可以到災區不然他永遠都導引不了那個地方那也就是說我為什麼會知道呢就是因為有去過才會知道那我們大概看一下這個圖就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
20707.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
20732.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
這個圖大概就是最後 我去挖到最後一戶385號佛祖街的門牌的旁邊的一個電線桿也就是說這個地方是最靠近合體的部分那其實他都已經把房子都淹沒了車子也都在這個沙土底下剛才第19位的罹難者也就在沙土底下被找到了就是在不遠處有一個沙石場那我們看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
20734.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
20760.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
那我最主要請你來的原因是我想問你光復鄉有多少個原住民光復鄉應該是有 抱歉我告訴你都要一半的人口他的人口有11300人那一半是原住民一共有217人那我想知道說你知道一共有幾人受到災害嗎主要嚴重的有七個村 有七個村 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
20761.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
20782.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
OK 這邊有個圖就是紅色的黃色的這些我們就大概知道說剛才我站的地方就是佛祖街阿陶墨靠近河流的部分我們現在他們有一些想法就是希望能夠有中繼屋這是他們的想法我想知道說現在園民會有沒有跟行政院這邊在溝通說有沒有一個災後重建的一個中心或者是一個專責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
20783.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
20811.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
現在就是在糖廠這邊是有一個前進協調所有政委這邊在做總協調官還有顧問在做副總協調官所以他就是以後的專責單位嗎這個可能我這邊就不確定不過目前就是這個協調所在處理這個家園復建的這個動作就是在家園清理這個部分還在努力在進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
20812.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
20830.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
那你大概看了一下你上次站的地方是在哪裡這幾個區我是在阿塔莫就是最重災區那當然我們大概無論是衛道無論是砂石 無論是垃圾其實是很不適合人在那邊長期工作的那我只是要問你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
20832.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
20842.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
你既然目前還沒有一個跨部或是部落的一個家園重建計畫的話現在的這個比如說像死亡還有一些震災的這些喪款我們園民會這邊的規劃是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
20845.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
20872.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
原民會這邊是沒有啟動善款但是我們有針對就是族人的這個貸款補貼或者是企業的這個貸款的補貼都有做預算的準備工作我想一個方向跟主委建議一下在我們就是311日本發生那些海嘯的時候他們對災民是這樣比如說可以減免稅比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
20873.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
20889.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
去哪裡的交通完全是免費的或者是說他醫療是完全免費的他房子的重建可以是政府幫忙的還有他的食物這一兩個月可能不穩定的狀況之下他的食物是免費的還有他的工作可以得到一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
20891.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
20908.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
譬如說他可以參與救災就可以有一些臨時的公務補貼有 公務員報告會裡面已經其實跟勞動部有合作有提出臨時工作計畫那目前已經都有在上工了就是這個部分都有在大概知道那我的意思是說我剛才有幾個面向讓你知道你可以跟主委建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
20910.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
20933.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
中央其實一站式的服務剛才包括家園復建等等這些措施其實現在就是已經在推動那我再提一下自救會的一些五大訴求第一個就是安全回鄉路第二個是離災不離鄉第三個是衛生好生活第四個是資訊公開第五個是攜手共創未來攜手共創未來的意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
20934.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
20957.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
他們要參與這個計畫而不是被屏除在外而不是被中央跟地方政府互推皮球他們希望能夠參與實際的一個就是說規劃 未來的規劃有 跟委員報告我參加這個中央協調所這個會議就是部落的代表都可以進來參加都有好 謝謝好 謝謝委員那我們有請我們環境部請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
20966.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
20993.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
對 我知道部長也有去了嘛現在大概是在清溝的部分那其實就針對大量的淤泥我還是希望你做一些說明好嗎好 第一個是那個淤泥我們是希望能夠最後再利用那至少說未來的那個水利署他在做那個堤防的時候可以拿來做使用不過也跟委員報告因為量實在太大我們預估這個現在市區清了大概10萬噸我們估計可能是將近可能到100萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
20994.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
21022.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
那另外一個是農田淤的那個泥但是農業部負責也大概都是600到700萬噸所以目前這個這的確未來要花幾年的時間才能夠完全解決這個問題那我們會努力啦這些比較惡臭的味道比如說這些垃圾啊就像早上林淑芬委員在提的就是說跟人的距離是不是要有一些適當的一些隔絕就是在光復市區在糖廠附近那個現在已經在移了那會移到那個比較偏遠的一個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
21023.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
21042.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
因為這個處理要分類要有機器來做篩分有沒有更好的方法可以消散那些味道或者是把它消菌這個我們會努力因為這個可以藉由噴灑一些每天有兩次的噴灑這個清潔藥劑會來處理也不要讓它污染環境好 謝謝 謝謝部長那請我們勞動部長請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
21050.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
21066.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
路緯很好對 那個天災臨時工的部分我是覺得名額太少那你能不能盤點一下就是目前可以大概需要的多少工來上網讓大家說去apply這樣子跟路緯說明那個沒有名額上限是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
21067.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
21090.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
所以基本上現在是看需要虛供的單位他提出多少 然後找到人然後來送給我們來給我們核所以可能就是一個資訊的不透明有的認為說公告上面他可能看到告訴我說我看到只有10名那10名怎麼夠我說怎麼可能只有10名但我也沒有去看啦我的意思說可能就是要去上網還是要去澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
21091.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
21116.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
跟羅遠說明我們其實現在是我們主動去找地方政府也包括找公所如果公所跟地方政府他有需求的話我們主動跟他說你來跟我們申請甚至我幫你辦我幫你主動來提申請的案件我們都一併幫他包辦所以這個是會看虛工的單位他有多少需求目前就是大概越來越需要的是專業型的志工是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
21116.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
21129.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
其實零工我們並沒有一定限專業型的志工你現在可能沒有工作的人然後你希望能夠為重建貢獻一份心力的人我們都透過零工的津貼可以來給予他薪資上的補貼好 謝謝 謝謝部長請我們國防部 國防部有人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
21145.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
21161.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
好 你好 我那天去的時候我其實是大概災後第九天可是我看到新聞 他說已經清的差不多了可是跟我的認知 跟我到的地方我覺得是 實在差太遠了我能不能誠實的跟國人說你的清淤的進度目前這個截至昨天為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
21167.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
21193.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
包委 截至昨天為止在家戶清理的部分第一階段總共是清了1517戶那其中有89戶是比較嚴重因為當初道路還沒有通那後來道路漸漸疏通之後到昨天又多清了47戶現在還有42戶還要等到後續道路這個開通的狀況之後會持續再來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
21195.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
21214.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
另外有關這個道路清淤的部分在大安 大平 大華 大馬等這個五個村主要幹道是都大致清理完畢那後續會持續針對這個小巷子的部分來持續來做優化雕用的部隊是哪個區域的 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
21214.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
21236.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
基本上是我們全台各部隊都有去做跨區的支援可是有聽說有些部隊是幾乎是天天去我想說有沒有輪休的概念有 基本上當然是以東部的第二駐岸區為主但是其他的三四五駐岸區都有做跨區的支援我還是希望我們官部能夠注意一下官兵的一些他們能 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
21236.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
21240.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
抗壓或者說壓力的一個等級讓他們適度的休息好 謝謝有請我們衛福部長請時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
21251.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
21269.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
服務員好 部長好可能也是剛剛有說的資訊不透明所以有些人很多人想要去幫忙可是不知道怎麼去幫忙所以甚至有護理人員說他去了那邊不知道窗口他就拿了廚子去當廚工去當那個去挖土那我是覺得說是不是也應該建立這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
21269.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
21295.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
所謂的社群或者是說志工的一個醫護人員的願意去幫忙的 有嗎有這方面的規劃嗎不過我們從昨天開始建立的所以有一個群組然後跟那個要來的志工做聯繫我們現在就有一個那個平台就是有一個窗口那要去的有醫院的志工先來醫療志工啦我們只管醫療志工來做登記讓我們再去分派這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
21297.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
21319.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
那我剛才有特別提到說光伏箱有217林如果真正的就是說比較受災嚴重的大概100多林嘛那如果其實按照我們的公共衛生的一個層級來看如果以一林一組的話其實會你大概就可以歸納出大概需要多少組人力那我去那邊實地去看了以後我覺得因為它的很分散 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
21319.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
21339.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
你從鳳嶺一直到這個光復這個區域可能如果是開車大概都十幾二十分鐘以上更何況是步行有的人是為了找OK辦或是為了找生理鹹水是用走路走二三十分鐘還找不到所謂的一個救護站那他們就有一個建議說是不是有一個類似如果他們突然一個構想就是一個撫片檔類似像那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
21340.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
21365.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
電動摩托車的 可以去他可以背一個像紅石會的一個背心到處去看有沒有人有受傷的或者是怎麼樣去發送這些可以清瘡的一些東西當然這是一個他的想法我是覺得說真的是要盤點然後做一個比較系統性的讓當地的族人跟我們的鄉親知道說我們衛生單位確實有在努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
21366.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
21389.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
好 謝謝然後還有最後就是我們有被通知說有些災區的老人家我剛才有講大概人口是一萬一千三百多人他的高齡化是全花蓮縣最高的大概將近三成的高齡所以其實你就會知道說當地的醫療需求是非常大那有些人可能因為醫院不知道他是來自災區 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
21390.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
21416.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
然後他就會告訴他說你這個住院時間已經到了他必須要回去結果回去以後他沒有地方可以住那個地方可能也沒有氧氣或什麼所以這個災後的這些醫療轉接跟即時通報的平台應該也要建置然後呢如果他要回家以後他是不是比如說他是住在安置中心甚至有一個居民說他原本是骨折的結果他們被分配到的地方是地下室 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
21417.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
21442.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
也就是說他在通報的時候或者在轉介的時候沒有做確實的登記才會造成說在照顧上的一個落差會讓民眾會覺得政府不夠努力我明明是骨折的把我分配到這個地方其實做很多一些很trivial的事情就是比較瑣碎的事情所以我希望衛福部這邊能夠多用點心思為災區的民眾去想 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
21444.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
21462.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
現在確實有些病人他當時候有受傷現在要出院了但是他家還沒有好所以我們才會有一個方案就是7加7的這個旅宿的短暫居住的補貼那我們會來建立那個社工因為這些都是受傷者 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
21462.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
21478.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
那有社工來安排那結合當地的旅館工會安排到有簽約的這些旅宿單位來居住我們會最多可以到10月底之前都可以試用就是7加7 14天當然我也有聽到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
21479.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
21508.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
他們知道有兩千塊的補貼可是不知道這兩千塊要去哪裡領要怎麼領 不用他只要住進去這個旅館不可以跟他收都不能跟他收錢然後我們就會給那個所以民眾就不知道啊民眾不需要付錢他就在那邊等說他到底要去哪裡拿這個錢然後去住他這個過程跟程序他就不知道我們現在剛好在那個中華電信那裡開了這個一站式服務可以去那裡詢問那邊都有一個窗口 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
21509.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
21519.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
那就謝謝大家的努力也希望我們台灣的職工能夠這個17萬人變成我們最亮麗的地方謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝盧憲義委員發言再請葉元之委員發言麻煩請衛福部長請衛福部時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
21546.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
21575.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
葉雲好部長好 我想請教一下10月5號賴總統去災區就是說每一戶要給20萬的房屋修繕補住這個錢是從捐款來的是不是先確定一下我們現在整個行政院擬定下來的家園支持方案一共有三個部分一個是復原未住金那個是由特別預算來支應我的問題很簡單 不要閃避就是他那20萬是不是捐款來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
21575.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
21591.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
還是中央變預算然後後來由總統宣布加碼我就問說他那時候去宣布這20萬是捐款還是我們政府的預算就這麼簡單是由捐款來的那另外還有一個家園支持15萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
21592.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
21609.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
也是中央宣布的這是捐款還是政府的預算家園支持裡面有兩個一個是10萬塊是由這個內政部的特別預算另外有5萬是由這個專款捐款所以政府宣布 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
21611.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
21630.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
有20萬的房屋修站費用以及家園支持5萬25萬都是從捐款來的那你一開始政府去宣布的時候大家還以為是政府編的預算其實是從捐款來的嘛那捐款就是大家都是捐給花蓮為什麼不直接發錢給他們就好還要說什麼名目什麼名目 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
21631.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
21652.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
因為所有的所有的捐款他還是要有符合的項目科目所以有些人就質疑因為捐款本來就是給他們的嘛不必要說有科目專款專用所以大家就會覺得說為什麼連這個東西都要好像變成是這個是中央給你的其實這個是民間的善款嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
21653.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
21681.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
都是大家的我現在就來問一下捐款的問題因為像有的捐款他政府收到之後他不會擅自決定怎麼用有的機關是這樣通常會成立一個捐款委員會好像以前來新北市的時候因為有什麼事情會成立一個專戶進到機關之後會有個捐款委員會來決定錢怎麼用我想問一下這一次衛福部有針對這個部分有成立捐款委員會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
21683.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
21698.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
這個基金會本身的運作因為他是公社財團法人所以他是由行政院先會去討論核定說那有哪一些是符合這個捐款的專款專用的目的然後就會有相關的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
21699.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
21713.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
去提報計畫那麼送進這個基金會那基金會會有一個審查的程序是由基金會來審查那現在基金會是已經募到10億以上嘛然後已經撥了4億7千萬到衛福部的帳戶對不對那衛福部拿到這4億7千萬之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
21716.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
21733.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
是怎么运用会不会有一个卫福部的委员会来决定钱怎么用然后就比如说会有一些民间的人是专家律师然后或者是甚至灾民代表一起来讨论这个专户的钱怎么用会吗就是说他要拨到卫福部之前的有吗我知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
21735.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
21753.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
都沒有都已經是確認用途才可以播所以這是4億7千萬怎麼用已經確定了都是確定的那接下來因為當然大家有這個民間的善款大家都希望公開透明可是實際上我們去看了那個震災基金會的網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
21754.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
21780.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
是非常的粗略像你如果去看他的募款計畫列了四個在這邊有0923馬太安西的114丹納斯0403花蓮政災還有一個烏克蘭的援助你實際上點進去看其實內容是蠻少的可能沒有辦法做到公開透明那我這邊建議如果說您部長這邊講說因為417在政災基金會就已經討論過怎麼用途那其實實際上你就可以放上去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
21781.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
21799.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
對 你就可以放上去嘛這第一件事情第二件事情啊我在那個政災基金會有一次開會會議記錄裡面看到一個點啊你看一下部長看一下他說第六點他說建議基金會可參考投資各項投資管道增加基金會財務來源啊你知不知道投資有賺有賠有風險啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
21800.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
21816.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
那如果你正在基金會的來源是捐款的話那你把捐款拿去做投資如果賠怎麼辦那這個上面的會議是講說原則可行喔要等衛福部回覆那不知道衛福部回覆是怎麼回覆不可行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
21817.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
21837.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
因為我們這個都是專家的意見所以你覺得不可行都會有一些專家這些委員專家都會把他視為說好像這個是一個財團法人那麼他有這些錢的話應該要讓他能夠自營但是我們這個是公設財團法人他的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
21837.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
21858.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
就是對對所以沒有任何投資目前我們都不講那剛剛講就是錢怎麼用然後還是盡量公開透明是然後政府有預算就用政府的錢要用捐款要講清楚對對不對不要政府不要讓拿了民間的錢然後還還一副就是好像這是我們政府給你的覺得對這個不要讓大家有這個誤會好謝謝是謝謝謝謝委員謝謝葉元之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
21866.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
21872.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
再來何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在張祺凱委員請發言老東部 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
21895.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
21922.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
我看應該先找環境部吧 請彭部長好 請彭部長張維好彭部長 台灣最美的風景是人這段時間去花蓮舊在那個產值超人大家都非常肯定不過這幾天發生一個不幸的事情就是挖土機超人他在災區連續工作了8天結果敗血症 不幸過世你怎麼看這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
21923.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
21950.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
這個令人遺憾啊令人遺憾對 非常遺憾我會跟你談這個議題是因為因為你曾經號召大家說來當清鍋超人水鍋現在凸了對不對網路上很多人就在提醒啊網站上說應該用專業的用機具比較快啊李鴻源前指揮官一直來勁不定的心他也說救災是非常專業的所以由專業的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
21952.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
21968.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
你今天要不要修正不知道委員你有沒有到現場看過我到現場待了三天從一開始那個不能走路到現在清完了到最後所有的水溝30公里全部都是沙土我們清溝機是沒有辦法下去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
21969.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
21998.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
所以基本上我們是請志工針對側溝的部分能夠那個側溝不是大家想的那個水溝啦當然我也必須說我們一直提醒大家要注意安全所以我們也提供了這個清溝掃全墾各地大概釣了一千個然後他們每一個呢其實都有戴護目鏡或幹嘛還有我們也有這個請我們的村長還有我們的帶隊的志工的頭能夠教他們怎麼去做處理我們是盡量保護大家那專業的當然是要專業啊但是剛剛最新的新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
21999.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
22009.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
紀林城指揮官下令前面接管 整個後面的清理他說光復的這個附租機 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
22014.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
22030.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
現在是全面接管全部由金人進去預定在十月中旬把整個你剛講那個側鍋前面清理完整我現在要提醒你了有愛心是好的我為什麼把這個當成一個重要議題在問你因為現在我們還有很多很有愛心的朋友們 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
22032.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
22049.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
老實講看了是真的很感動的自己買雨鞋帶著鏟子就過去幫忙了當然我們要做兩件事情如果真的還有人要去幫忙我們在一下的光復車站要有人去指揮 去培訓第二個更重要的我覺得應該要專業的來就是李鴻眼在提醒你的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
22050.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
22071.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
你的形象很好 你很有號召力量你喊說大家去清鍋的時候很多人因為你的話去我今天提醒你現在兩個很重要的 今天的第一個 有人氣的感染的或敗血症不信走了嘛 對不對所以我們需要有專利的來最新的是我剛剛跟你講紀連城剛剛已經下令了全面接管 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
22072.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
22087.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
佛祖街那是佛祖街委員你如果去佛祖街你就知道那個是特別嚴重的一個特別區域到現在才能夠前兩天中秋節的時候才可以進去挖土器這個超人不幸過世李鴻源講說所以早說不要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
22088.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
22114.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
委員如果沒有志工因為志工其實很多的志工是很專業的我們真的很感謝志工我們也特別要注意他們的安全但是委員如果你到現場就知道那個不是你想像中在這個地方看到那個樣子所以我們的救災是專業的嘛對不對如果要專業的話三個月都撐不完就應該派一營的兵力進去有專業的工兵有機具有人有車嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
22115.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
22126.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
那你現在 我今天只是要提醒你就是說你的號召的同時已經有悲劇產生了你就要提出修正啊 對不對那如果誘人進去發生事情你要不要負責任如果還有人去誘 發生問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
22132.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
22157.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
如果你到現場去 你就可以知道要怎麼去處理你不要在這個地方抗議我好不好我們是在救災 我在那邊待了三天你這樣對我說那樣的話那不都是為了救災在努力嗎 你太努力了啊我們在保護大家 我們肯定大家去救災我身為一個花蓮人 為保護他們希望災民能夠趕快恢復狀況所以由專業的來 不是最好的一個救災方式嗎我現在是向你提醒說 你是一個有號召力的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
22157.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
22181.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
所以我很提醒當然我們有特別給他們的工具也特別交代他們要怎麼去處理我也謝謝他們也請他們多要注意他們的健康事實上這個我們能夠該做的我們都會努力去做但是委員你不要把一個什麼樣的事情因為這個現場的災情我在那邊待了三天我只能感同身受所以我們要趕快把災民恢復生活紀連城講的也是錯的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
22184.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
22192.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
紀政委他是屬於在針對佛祖街那個地方非常高非常厚跟你想像的不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
22193.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
22220.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
所以你現在還是不願意修正啦好沒關係 我剛剛就提醒了現在要由專業的去救災這個李鴻眼已經提出來了如果你知道你專業救災的話那個在半年都清不完你如果 你那個是10萬噸的這個砂石跟垃圾欸10萬噸欸應該調派更多的經濟去不是嗎你應該去找國防部長跟院長跟總統講這個事情喔你要公開呼籲 這個更重要對不對我們國軍長久都在救災啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
22221.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
22246.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
是不是 你應該趕快去拜託啦好不好拜託 多一點精力去 趕快加速委員你到現場去 你看就知道了你就不會覺得我們是努力要幫災民幫花蓮人的忙那你有必要各種的方法能夠做的跟現場的第一線運作是不一樣的我們都是為了整個台灣好我剛講有人去幫忙 我們都是感動的要用專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
22247.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
22260.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
好不好用專業的而且我剛講過你如果真的還是認為還是要號召志工去你要把他保護好好不好就是這樣好不好我們會絕對會努力的好了我們請那個你來我先請那個衛務部的部長有請史部長不好意思喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
22269.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
22283.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
委員好師父長你早上在巡打的時候你講說啊我們都志工去幫忙那你說你最近這個禮拜會有一個新的計畫去輔導他們碰到了這個心理或者是創傷的症候群這禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
22285.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
22311.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
可是我才知道你們以前包括消防署對專職的消防員還有說地震包括土耳其大地震的時候你們一些義工去幫忙你們都有專案去幫忙為什麼現在還要等一個禮拜不是 我們在前一階段是主要對象是針對災民就是在地的這一些受災戶或者是比較脆弱家庭 弱勢照顧那個部分我們已經開始了 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
22312.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
22330.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
那現在接著下來的是說前一陣子他都在救災那現在到了救災一段時間過去那一個心理的程度就會開始出現後面的問題所以我們是在針對這一次投入救災的人員還有志工我們另起一個專案來作為後續的心理支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
22330.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
22348.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
就照以前的那個你所謂的以前有專職那個包括消防員那些跟義工的你本來就要做嘛對不對不只是消防員他們是長期你本來就有一套心理輔導跟創傷症候群的一個輔導嘛對不對有這些工具你本來就有為什麼現在又要起一個新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
22349.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
22374.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
這是針對這一次災情的那應該有個標準作業程序照以前去做啊都會有一些做法但是會因為每一次災難的特性有點不同它所面臨到的那個壓力也會有點調整所以我們專業的部分會越做調整那我請那個今天那個原署長有一起來對不對環境管理署的署長部長你再請上來一下來你心情應該比較平復的我們等一下理性來對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
22378.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
22395.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
署長我問你兩個問題第一個 災情的時候你在國外嘛我只問兩個 我只問兩個問題為什麼公文上面呈現的不是部長批的你要出去考察為什麼不是部長批 也不是次長為什麼是你覺醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
22397.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
22418.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
你自己要出去然後你自己覺醒喔那個要出去的簽有部長批過部長事先有同意嗎出國的行程他是署長要我同意你有同意嗎事先有同意嘛對不對只是你後來你覺醒就對了不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
22419.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
22431.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
有同意之後那個後面的行程是屬於屬的業務那個部分我覺醒是你覺醒 是好 那我們再來進一步看一下這個行程我手上這個是你出去的行程 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
22431.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
22453.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
喔 那個是假的那個我跟委員委員不要聽那個狗仔亂爆料啦那個是很早期你要出國那個你的旅行社不知道你要往哪裡走就建議你一些出國的行程所以這個行程後來是有改對不對不是啦 不是啦這樣沒關係沒關係委員不要被狗仔害啦不要急 不要急讓署長講 所以你出去來來 署長來所以你出去這幾天做了什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
22455.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
22474.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
我第一天去比利時考察這一個有一個Silico的廠第二天就也是在比利時那是9月23號也是考察一個醫療廢棄物跟探譜桌的廠那一天的下午 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
22475.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
22496.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
發生了事情我就那一天從比利時趕回法國搭第二天的飛機11點鐘隔天的早上7點鐘回到中正機場回到桃園機場下午我就在花蓮到現在到昨天第12天才回來今天被尋 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
22498.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
22516.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
好 OK 整個行程很程序的很清楚的跟大家講抱歉 主席借我一分鐘因為部長是個很重要的來 那個署長 你請你請你只要把行程不要讓外面誤會你是出去玩就好你把事情交代清楚因為 抱歉 給我一分鐘因為剛剛署長我看他有點動怒啦我剛剛的質詢很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
22518.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
22546.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
第一個因為前指揮官李鴻元是在講話對不對現任的指揮官也講了要由專業的來做那當然因為你的影響力很大所以我才提醒你嘛那個第一線作業跟你在這邊是不一樣的情節我們一定是保障現在是第一線的問題就是說你很有影響力你形象不錯所以你號召說大家一起去清鍋嘛所以我是現在提醒你說你號召大家去很多人是因為你的關係去的嘛我不敢不敢你要確保人家的安全嘛李鴻元的意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
22548.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
22573.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
讓專業來 你剛剛生氣我現在是說你到底要怎麼去確保這些人的安全對不對現在其實我們每一個都有帶隊而且那個溝不是大家想說我們那個地下水道的溝不是的就是我們一般民眾家裡前面的一個小側溝那當然那個有時候拉起來也有一些意外發生那個我們有特別提醒帶隊的人特別是有的是指揮官協調官他們一定要特別注意我們都有交代的 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
22573.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
22586.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
剛剛講了嘛如果現在還有產值超人到要去救災你下了光復火車站一定有專人在那邊嘛對不對就你說的還是一定要有人帶著他嘛是一定把安全做好好不好是好好謝謝謝謝謝謝張旗開委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
22591.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
22612.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
再來換李彥秀委員 李彥秀委員 李彥秀委員不在王宏威委員 王宏威委員 王宏威委員不在林柱英委員 林柱英委員 林柱英委員不在邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在高金素梅委員 高金素梅委員 高金素梅委員不在好 請蔡易瑜委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
22629.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
22634.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
好謝謝主席我們是不是有請勞動部紅部長請紅部長參議員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
22642.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
22662.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
部長我想跟你就教一下現在就是外籍漁工漁撈作業因為他有一個新的定義這個定義就是說他必須是漁船的如果是在船上工作的話他只能可以從事捕撈後的必要處理就是外籍漁工 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
22664.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
22682.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
我們現在遇到很多的狀況 我們當局很多都是在擠蚵仔那我們知道擠蚵仔他請移工 他這些移工在他可能在白鴨那裡作業作業後一個很重要的工作 就是課鋼後要把蚵仔 蚵仔 蚵仔要拿起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
22685.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
22712.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
要拿起來 也要盡力 盡力後再拿去讓人家去刮蚵仔這一些作業基本上如果我是僱主 我當然會我有移工 我當然希望他在這一些作業都可以做啊但是呢 以現行的規定他這個移工只可以在海上作業以及陸上移工就不能做了所以他如果遇到危險會被開罰單這件事情就不合理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
22714.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
22725.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
部長你應該懂我的意思嘛就是說移工他的作業我們把它定義說他是海上作業的移工他不能在陸域工作不能在陸域工作我這樣我不是要請兩特人 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
22727.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
22742.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
那個蔡永我了解這意思因為這個確實有愚民來澄清那大概有幾個部分我們在評估的原則第一個部分就是說這幾個工作的場域都是合法的工作場域那這是一個合法工作場域我們現在還在評估嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
22746.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
22761.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
工作殘餘一定是合法嘛我的工作殘餘就是會跟他說做回去外賣因為我外賣就外賣出去外賣然後定期就要去那邊整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
22762.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
22778.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
整理回來 撬回來之後 把鵝餅拖回來拖回來就是鵝要把它撬起來放在籃子裡面 籃子再做那就是一般的作業嘛所以整個作業上 反而在入獄的部分是更辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
22779.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
22806.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
在陆域的时候是辛苦的所以在这一段移工是不能帮忙的所以我们第一个是我们先第一个如果先确定就是说工作的场域是一个合法的工作场域的话那我想我们会持续的我们现在会来针对就是现在渔民们的这个诉求来评估部长您指的工作场域是指说怎样的工作场域比方说渔船跟它的这个科棚应该是科棚对科棚就是渔船跟科棚这几个地方要是合法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
22808.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
22821.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
對這沒有問題但是他可能磕盆回來到作業平台入港後就會有一個平台他就會在那裡作業看起來就在這一段的作業會被檢舉包委員我們現在了解的狀況就是當這個漁工要從這個A場域到B場域的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
22827.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
22839.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
我們的了解是B場域目前他還沒有取得他的使用權他還沒有拿到漁權那漁權的部分需要由地方政府進行核發許可所以我們的理解是 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
22839.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
22861.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
他們還在申請許可的過程中所以當他要從A場域調派到B場域的時候可能會涉及到不是合法的場域那這是我們了解的個案我們不曉得說我們知道的跟委員所提的是不是同一個個案部長因為我們在東石布袋我們是叫做區劃漁業權那區劃漁業權就是有一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
22863.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
22875.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
就是每個劃一塊就是說銀鵝餅就是在那裡放鵝啊那只要拖回到了陸域基本上陸域那個所在就是一個公共空間那也不說什麼人放那個空間他就是會在那裡經歷 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
22878.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
22907.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
經理在那裡請兒子在那裡兒子在那裡兒子裡面所以他那樣的話是要再去申請漁權嗎這個我有點納悶因為過去比方在製造業可能也有所謂A廠B調就是我同一個顧主下面我可能有兩個廠那這兩個廠的移工他可能在一定比例之下他可以有些調度這我們叫A廠B調的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
22907.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
22927.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
那所以我們也在思考說剛剛委員在跟我們講的這樣子的情境那有沒有可能往這那可是這個要這樣做的前提是那個工作的場域那我們怎麼確認他是有使用權跟合法那我覺得這部分也許我們可以來跟包括漁業署然後也跟也許委員辦公室我們這邊大家也許我可以用個案來 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
22929.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
22956.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
大家再會一下這個個案到底是怎樣或者他不一定只是個案他不會是個案只是說遇到檢舉的是一個個案所以我說不一定是一個個案但是我說這個狀況就是說我們怎麼確認這兩個工作的場域其實都是合法有使用權的比較能夠我們要去做相關的考慮或相關的評估相關的放寬的時候比較有一個清楚的依據大概是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
22956.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
22974.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
部長所以我事實上講了這個移工事實上遇到這些困難所以我想進一步再建議短短的一分鐘事實上我們國內對於外籍移工的一個政策我們都希望移工只在一個工作只做一份工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
22975.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
23000.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
這一件事情我覺得保守了也許我們可以去思考移工可以去做第二份工作也就是兼差的概念只是說未來要怎麼落實管理他在第一份工作之後他在他的其他其餘時間比方說六日移工如果願意的話讓他去兼第二份工作未嘗不可因為現在勞動力缺乏嘛事實上現在移工來到台灣他們的心態是什麼他就是要做 要拚 要賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
23003.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
23031.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
我們也是欠勞動力啊給他們第二份工作這個是一個可以考慮的我先補充因為確實因為整體的移工政策他基本上他入國以後他就是跟著一個雇主是啊他就一個雇主他就是因為在我們的救福法裡面他就必須跟著一個雇主所以某個部分來講因為他跟著這個雇主那雇主要負責很多他相關的管理的這件事情所以剛才說為什麼我們在一些地方比方製造業我們其實有A廠B調他是同一個雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
23032.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
23050.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
他在同一個雇主的情況之下他可能不同的工作的那個工廠他可以去做一定比例的調度但他是在一個同一個雇主的概念之下因為這個在我們整體的法規的架構裡面是這樣這樣子所以我就說這當然你們會涉及到一個更大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
23052.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
23076.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
從這30年來的移工政策的邏輯就是它進來它的確它是必須跟著一個雇主這就法規上面來說是這樣子現在就是一個雇主所以就變成說我們在A廠B調的架構一樣是在一個雇主的情況那當然我提出的就是說一個雇主這個概念也許現在在勞動力極度缺乏的狀況之下而且移工本身也會有這樣的意願的情況也許我們可以去考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
23077.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
23103.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
不然比方說像農業的移工農業移工比方有農業的外展外展他是因為他可能就是在他有一個雇主但是這個雇主他可以把他調在某些地方上面去做外展的調度那這也是他也是跟著一個雇主所以我們也都是盡量希望能夠在現有的法規架構下面怎麼讓這個包括產業包括移工其實大家有更多在這裡面的一個平衡我們一直在想這個事情好啊我覺得這部分再研究一下盡量說 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
23105.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
23113.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
勞動力是需要更多的補充啦如果移工就是勞動力的補充盡量才這方面能夠開放的盡量開放是有聽懂謝謝好謝謝謝謝蔡議員那 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
23119.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
23144.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
請本日會議詢答全部結束委員陳金輝 王育敏所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
23146.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
23149.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午九時繼續開會謝謝 |