| IVOD_ID |
16907 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16907 |
| 日期 |
2025-09-19 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-09-19T10:15:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-09-19T12:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:14:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a60997e00f4fa55ef9691106844fc4b344661771dcf01385b395bb972c33c0a99fd15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-09-19T10:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會「行使審計部審計長同意權案」公聽會（事由：第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會「行使審計部審計長同意權案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:15:36 - 12:30:00 |
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好 謝謝我們現在開始正式開會我們非常感謝今天列席的所有的學者專家本院的委員以及在場的女士先生們 大家好今天我們舉行省紀長人事同意權公聽會是依照本會期第一次會議所作之決定辦理依據中華民國憲法 省紀部組織法 省紀法等規定省紀部執掌監督預算之執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
935.918 |
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審定決算及中立審計業務等事項以促進政府財政透明與匡正財政機率因此審計長對於政府預算制執行監督肩負的職責是非常重大本月依照憲法附託代表人民行使同意權針對被提名人資格進行審查因此舉辦本次公聽會以作為審查的參考本次受 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
964.48 |
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988.986 |
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三個黨團推薦出席的學者專家皆是在領域內長期努力深獲肯定的重要代表我們在此非常非常感謝各位的參加也具備了豐富的學養相信各位學者專家一定能夠為我們本院的委員提供寶貴的意見在此再一次要感謝各位學者專家不知辛勞在參與我們今天的公聽會針對 |
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991.055 |
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1010.761 |
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今天公聽會的程序,我們現在做以下宣告。1.發言時程,每位學者專家發表時間10分鐘。審查小組委員,每位詢問時間同樣為10分鐘。本院委員發言完畢之後,再由學者專家代表綜合答覆30分鐘。 |
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1012.182 |
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1029.044 |
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因此,请各位学者专家发表告见之后,也能够听取本院各党团所推派之委员代表之询问发言。最后,还要请各位学者专家能够赐教答复,等今天整个议程圆满结束之后,再行离开。 |
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1029.565 |
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1042.544 |
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二 发言顺序先由学者专家发言次由审查小组委员发言最后再由学者专家综合答复相关的发言顺序请参阅陈列于各位桌上的名单 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1044.022 |
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1071.369 |
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各党团所推举的学者专家审查小组委员如果不在场或必要时得互相调换次序另外在发言时间结束前一分钟我们会按一个短铃发言时间届满时我们会按一个长铃现在我们开始进行发言首先我们非常荣幸请吕玉成教授请发言谢谢吕教授 请 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1073.352 |
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1102.161 |
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院長還有在座各位委員先進是不是請院長容許我坐著來講話好嗎非常歡迎請今天非常榮幸有這樣的機會來參加這個審計長同意權公聽會我想這個審計長從108年開始受總統提名擔任審計長現在不管是在這個工作上資歷上我想應該已經非常的賢手所以我今天主要的這個意見 |
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1103.621 |
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1118.252 |
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就像我所準備的資料一樣,主要就是期待省紀長在這個新的任期內能夠將過去省紀部所提出的一些政策目標或者是一些政策的理念 |
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1118.672 |
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1145.91 |
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乃至於一些具體的做法能夠更加的落實而且能夠更加的精進所以我的結論很簡單就是從內部跟外部兩個部分希望讓這個審計整體架構這個左邊的這個圖事實上就是審計部自己在這個網站上所公開的所謂的這個審計的一個未來績效價值跟這個效益的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1146.704 |
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1168.893 |
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那要達成這個架構,我認為從目前我所收集到的資料,大概可以從兩個部分來處理。第一個就是內部。內部就是關於人員的能力跟工作條件的優化。同時,除了既有的以會計、統計,乃至於審計為主的人力來源中,更強化績效審計。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1169.893 |
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1182.063 |
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那麼從外部的角度來說,我覺得審計部主要還是得要去落實憲法中修條文第七條,關於監察權的事項。那麼在這個基礎上,可以從過去我們強調機核的觀點,來更強調績效跟專業課程。這是我今天發言的一個結論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1195.074 |
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1216.101 |
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基於剛才的對內跟對外,接下來我就簡單地把為什麼剛才提出這些觀點的內容跟各位委員或是先進報告。第一個就是所謂的優化審計人員工作條件。這張投影片上面所呈現的是審計機關的性別乃至於審計機關的年齡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1219.503 |
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1243.145 |
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我不知道各位如果去看左邊的這個圖,從103年到113年,女性的占比大幅度的增高。我所謂的女性的占比,並不是強調著所謂的性別或者是這種性別的差異,而是特別去凸顯我們說整個審計人員的這個組成的結構上可能有一個巨大的改變。 |
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1244.249 |
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1267.423 |
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那麼右邊的這張圖,我要強調的是,省紀部是一條邊的組織運作。那除了中央之外,可能我們也要去注意到地方,特別是縣的人力配置。可是我們看在29歲以下,在宜蘭等等各縣的省紀市,事實上幾乎沒有男性。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1268.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1285.526 |
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所以我要強調就是我們已經不能再用過去那種審計人員的人力組成的概念來看未來的人力的配置所以我提出所謂的攬財、留財跟用財這三個基本的思考所謂的攬財意思是 |
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1286.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1305.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
而我們可能要正視一下整個人力組成,乃至於人力配置的適合性。那麼我們怎麼樣去把年輕世代的意願帶進來,怎麼樣運用這些資深的人力。我想省紀部在網站上也特別強調怎麼樣去徵才, |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1308.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1332.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
過去的這樣的思維恐怕沒有辦法去爭取尤其是年輕世代對於審計工作特別是我想在座可以理解很多人對審計這一個概念其實是非常模糊的不熟悉的如果再考慮上外部的競爭力恐怕這個問題會更加的嚴重這是我認為新任的陳審議長可能要去重視的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1334.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1358.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
另外一個省紀部有一個很特殊的就是,除了省紀官之外,還有行政人員,也就是一般的文官。那這兩類的人員要怎麼樣去做搭配,怎麼樣去運用這個專業?好比說省紀部這幾年當然也在推AI、在推一些數據,但是從現有的人力結構是不是能夠去指引這樣的一個工作的需求?所以我的重點在於,怎麼樣去優化這個工作的條件? |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1358.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1385.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那麼有了工作條件優化之後就要去強化這個能力這兩張投影片所要強調的就是左邊就是我們傳統上審計人員的來源他主要就是統計、會計來自於審計這個高考三級的來源那麼各位長官看一下像這樣的一個應考的資格跟應考的條件是不是能夠滿足右邊這是審計部自己所說的工作的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1386.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1413.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那我覺得這中間還是有相當大的落差那未來是不是可能在這樣的一個情況之下再考慮我所列出左下角的那三個第一個就是所謂的績效審計幾年前審計部曾經有開績效審計的這個考試的一課那麼後來呢也是做了一個改革但是未來因應這個時空環境的改變跟業務的需求是不是可能再考量這樣的一個或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1414.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1440.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
績效審計這個類科,這個人力來源,或者是這樣的一個專業的一個引進,不見得是不是要透過國家考試,也可能是第二點,引進外部的這些專業的人才。我的意思還是在於,如果審計要發揮功能,恐怕不能再循傳統的這種高不考的方式來引進,可能要更加的去跟社會的專業能夠去做結合。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1441.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1457.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那麼當然這個就會涉及到人員的升遷還有這個搭配的這個部分那不可否認審計部當然也是一個行政機關但是在考量到他的業務的獨特性跟機關業務的需求上是不是也要做人力調度上的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1459.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1486.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那麼對外的部分我也是兩個觀點第一個 審計部當然對政府來說一般機關來說他很強調他的這個財務預算等等的這個集合的工作但是畢竟從憲法正修條例第七條來說他還是要去搭配監察權的行使那我想在左邊的這個圖也是審計部自己公開的一個資料他希望審計部不只是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1487.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1506.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
積合的工作它還要能夠對民眾生活產生正面的影響我覺得非常符合現在我們社會大眾對於審計功能的期待所以未來在工作規範、工作標準乃至於人員的安心工作上 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1507.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1525.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
可能要去更強調心力的部分我特別強調第三點我想很多一般行政機關的同仁一聽到審計部要來機關做一些考朝視察大系裡面都是七上八包括我們台北大學也是一樣可是我覺得審計部的角色不應該只是去 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1526.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1550.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
抓這個弊端應該更強的是幫幫這個人員去解決問題譬如說我們很多的這些特殊的譬如說一些費用的支印或者是一些採購等等的可能人員的專業能力不足這個時候就需要審計人員事先告訴我們什麼是可以做什麼是不能做我覺得用這樣的角度來思考這個審計權的發揮會更有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1554.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1575.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那麼對外的部分,我想這個陳審計長在他的這個自傳中也提到,他蠻重視這個美國GAO,就是所謂的會計總署的一個內容。左邊這張圖就是從昨天從GAO的這個官網上所下載下來他們的政策使命。那麼我覺得這幾個項目,特別是我用紅線標下來這幾個項目,剛好也蠻符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1579.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1598.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
審計長在審計部的網站上所公開的,乃至於我們未來,假設我們要符合剛才所說的滿足民眾的需求,可能要考慮到的。那麼我想,審計部在目前的這個整個政府的審計業務上,它在專業性已經非常足夠。那麼未來, |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1599.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1621.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
簡單的講就是要怎麼樣把這個專業性跟這個民眾的需求來自於社會的期待做一個結合那我覺得GAO這邊所提到數據、課則、協力、透明這四大項目非常符合審計部未來在業務推動上融入的一些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1622.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1638.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
特別是這個客者我想那個GAO過去是所謂的audit現在已經變成所謂的accountability這就是所謂的客者的這個議題換句話說它不只是財務責任的一個追究它更強調的是這一個能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1640.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1656.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
讓機關能夠去承擔它應該負的責任我覺得這是一個很重要的重點最後我的結論就是這一張三角題也是審計部在網站上公開他說審計機關專業發展模型我覺得這個模型很棒 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1657.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1686.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
但是重點不是這個模型很棒應該是怎麼樣這個模型能夠發揮它應該有的所以我的結論還是在回應到剛才所說的我們今天不只是去談一個法定機關的一個首長的這一個任命它更重要的是怎麼樣去發揮它應有的專業功能以上 謝謝謝謝李玉成 李教授精彩的發言非常感謝接下來我們請馬秀儒教授請給他稿規一些 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1687.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1705.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席、委員、專家、學者、在場的各位大家好,我是馬秀如,政大會計系的退休老師。我教審計,教很久,所以我對審計的觀念不會模糊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1707.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1722.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我今天來跟各位報告,就是我看這些資料的一些心得我很早以前就認得現任的沉沈機長然後那個時候是民國七十八年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1723.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1726.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
民國78年我在政大當會員所的所長,那個時候政大會員所跟主機處,那時候還不叫主機總處,跟主機處合辦高級主機人員訓練班,所以那個時候就認得陳審計長,他那時候是主機人員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1745.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1747.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這麼多年來的一個觀察,我在當監委的時候查過主計處的案子,處理這個案子的人就是當時的副主計長,現任的陳審計長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1766.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1768.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我現在有被陳警長聘去審計部當業務研究委員會的委員然後常常有當評審的機會去審他們的一些案子或者是委外的研究計畫然後最近也要去他們的訓練委員會開課上課所以對審計部的運作是比較我覺得了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1793.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1800.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
而且因為我上課要去看這個Intel Science的東西所以像最後一頁剛剛這個旅委員提出來的這個叫做審計機關專業發展模型它裡面有 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1809.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1813.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
over-sight 監督,有insight 要去看清楚這個洞察本來是在上面看,insight 就在裡面看在上面看的時候,就會看得比較不內行 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1828.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1842.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
在裡面看inside的時候就會看得比較清楚那foreside是第三個最下面的這個它是說我在看的時候不只是看過去的我也去思考未來所以一個是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1845.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1864.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
地域的觀念一個是時間的觀念然後這一張圖呢其實是在講審計的成熟度越成熟的審計就越往後走會往後面的foresight這邊去走那我就從這個理論跟這個實際上的審計部的做法來跟各位來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1872.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1892.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那在我們的資料裡頭就說我們審計部是幹嘛呢他的角色是審核政府的財政收支考核公共資源的配置跟運用的情形目的是要提升民眾對政府施政的信心在這邊的政府是受察者審計部他不在行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1899.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1906.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他在監察院他是個監督機關所以審計部對監督機關做的事情叫做監督英文可能叫做audit我們把它翻成審計可是它原本的意思是監督在談監督的時候我們女委員就很強調說誰在監督這個監督者是誰他的性別怎樣年齡怎樣年齡這邊從 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1928.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1945.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
理委員提供的資料的年齡這邊看到如果這個人夠老的話六十歲以上男生多於女生年紀輕的話那就女生多於男生為什麼呢因為審計人員很多都是從會計系畢業的統計很少大半都會計然後有工程然後在會計系畢業的女生就讀會計系的女生比男生多很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1958.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1984.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那就會有很自然就會有這種男女的現象出現然後我們在談審計的時候就會談到說這個人他要去查哪些案立案是非常重要的如果查錯了案花的力氣再多都沒用都是白花力氣然後立案以後再去查然後查完以後要把報告提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1986.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1989.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以在這個現任審計長他提供的資料裡頭就分別去針對如何立案如何去執行查核如何做報告去做了一些闡述我覺得闡述的是挺好的在如何立案的時候他有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2007.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2010.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
新成立了這個關鍵審計議題委員會去辨認關鍵議題我不在那個委員會裡頭我可以說他們做得很好這個沒有在拍人家馬屁的意思然後再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2024.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2034.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
做這個查核的時候陳機長的資料裡頭說我們導入新興的工具新興的工具有哪些呢主要是AI用AI加上大數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2039.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2059.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
然後去開發一些數位審計的模組這是如何去執行查核然後他也提到說我們辦理聯合審計共同性審計我們會跨域查核然後就涉及中央跟地方區域治理跟地方的事情去做這個聯合審計我覺得這個都是比以前好的地方然後在審計長的資料裡頭還提到有些機關它 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2069.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2078.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
他的答覆是不負責任的或者答覆不當在資料裡面告訴我們說從109年到114年7月這種案子有643案 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2085.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2087.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
643 案就在講的是這些被監督的機關他們沒有盡到他們執行的責任審計部是監督者去監督執行者這兩個責任是完全要把它劃分開來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2102.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2105.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
至於在提出審計報告的這個部分資料裡頭有說我們是讓資訊可以被看得懂有提出說我們的審計報告改變了現在是分測編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2118.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2139.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
現在提供電子檔現在增加一個專章叫做重要施政議題的查核這些我從理論上來看這邊都是把審計的功能有提升的一些做法但是沒有一個人是沒有缺點的我也有缺點在這邊的資料裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2142.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2151.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
譬如說神器機關就說我們現在要跟行政部門的關係是一個合作夥伴的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2152.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2173.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那如果監督者跟這個被監督者兩的關係是合作夥伴真正是合作夥伴的話那這個時候監督者就很難發揮監督的功能所以在資料裡頭我覺得運氣很好看到的執行的方法並不是真的監督夥伴並不是真的合夥的那種合作夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2178.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2185.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那麼他會提出一些好的行政機關的案例用審計部的角色把它揭露出來讓別人知道說這是做得好的做得好的是我監督者說被監督者做得好我這個監督者在說被監督者做得好的同時我也說被監督者沒有做得好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2204.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2206.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有很多,裡面就一堆的審核意見這些。然後另外,他說我跟誰合作呢?他就合作的部門有廉政署,有主計人員,有政風人員,政風人員在廉政署裡頭。 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2224.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2239.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個合作的夥伴他的角色也是行政單位裡面的監督者所以在這種情況下去說我要合作我審計部跟別的監督單位合作這個就沒有問題但 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2243.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2246.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
就是直接講說我今天跟人家去我跟我的受查的單位是合作夥伴然後如果再說我與人為善這樣的話就會是一個錯誤的訊息再把它拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2261.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2266.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我是前幾天今天十九號十五號的時候剛好在廉政署參加廉政經質獎的決選會議然後審計部不是那天在廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2279.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2304.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
原政署的署長就很驕傲的說他們要跟審計部合作來辦理一個平台我是從外面聽到別人對審計部的肯定所以我來這邊轉述一下那以上發言 謝謝好 謝謝馬秀儒教授寶貴的意見 謝謝您接下來我們請黃耀輝教授請表達意見 好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2308.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2325.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
主席還有與會的先進大家早安很榮幸受邀參加省紀長提名的公聽會接下來我就用簡報跟各位分享我個人的意見首先看到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2327.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2344.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
这个贝廷明人他公务生涯长达47年一直都在从大学毕业之后就一直在会计主计审计领域工作学经历都很完备基本上我认为他是符合审计部组织法所定定的资格那 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2346.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2361.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
审计长在他过去六年的期间他也提出了六大点的具体优异事迹我个人详细审阅之后我发现他具体的部分只有第六大点也就是108案年起 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2376.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2392.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
分析所以这个是他我可以肯定这个是他具体的忧郁事迹但是其他五点我认为不够具体大多是文字的叙述很少有数据佐证比如说第一大点他说落实监督强化洞察 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2393.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2401.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
邁向前瞻語言不詳只有在他的第三小點提到說我們的資訊審核分析系統在109年到113年節省或 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2407.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2433.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
節省了浪費性的支出大概合計大概五年下來只有9.6億元相對於五年的稅收規模十幾兆只省下9.6億元所以這個績效其實不是很顯著第二點五大顧面有500項業務革新措施可是我們沒看到它績效反映在哪裡沒有數字的說明第三點第三大點他講這個創新 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2436.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2447.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就提出創新建議的意見有給員工創新的獎勵沒有看到他反映在譬如說查核在審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2448.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2477.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
行政院這個預算執行的決算這個績效在哪裡沒有數字第四大點提到數位審計技術呢讓他增加那個查核案例增加到1813那請問那個到底他節省了多少的支出查了多少的B端也沒有看到任何的數據了第五大點提到審計部組織修法呢那也沒說明說節省了多少減費提升多少效能所以接下來呢我 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2478.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2486.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我從審計部、審計長基於獨立、廉政、專業、創新這個核心價值來提問,因為很可惜,我們這個學者發表意見,沒辦法跟被提名人面對面請教他。 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2501.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2522.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
他的想法是什么所以我们只能够透过立委们比如在下午的时候欢迎直接引用我以下的简报的资料如果可以的话直接对被提名的以下几点问题请教他的客观意见第一个就是在去年我们这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2528.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2554.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
这个预算案在立法院跟行政院发生了很多的争议我个人认为有好多法定义务之处我们的行政院不编甚至已经立法院通过变成法定预算还用粗暴的方式把它删减我个人认为它是违宪违法第一点就是就是这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2554.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2556.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
原民禁法補償條例去年6月在綠委提案獲得立院通過之後調高了補償金額結果原民會 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2568.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2587.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
竟然没有在一百一十四年度总预算里面呢把这个法定义务支出呢列组编组预算这个很明显的就是违反预算法然后呢第二个就是行政院在五月份的突然突袭式的删减了一般性补助款六百三十六亿这个一般性补助款呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2588.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2601.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
照大法官釋憲391號跟520解釋這是錯失性法律即使行政院你提起復議失敗之後你就應該付諸執行它就是所謂的法定預算可是我們的主計總書 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2603.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2618.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
竟然在总预算里面呢他也指出了说一般性补助款呢是法定义务支出而法定义务支出就是什么呢依照相关法律明确的规定必须编列的经费即使行政部门你认为 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2619.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2619.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
再看下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2648.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2674.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
在追加预算这个部分在今年八月行政院提出了追加预算案原来就是针对刚才讲的禁法补偿的调高它没有编列预算于是立法院通融就让它追加二十三亿结果它却夹带了八百五十五亿的其他支出以至于追加预算的规模高达八百七十八亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2674.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2701.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
这个很难就是违反预算法79条之四的那个79条的那个四个追加预算的条件包括一法律增加业务或事业并没有第二点一法律增加新机关没有第三个新办事业因重大事故经费超过法律预算时没有第四点一有关法律因捕猎追加预算没有所以最后结果就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2701.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
2719.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
利用原民進法補償追加預算夾帶了不當的支出然後客扣剛才講的三減一般補助款636億佔為己有然後變相增加我們行政院的稅出 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
2721.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
2748.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
再看下一页劳保的破产的问题已经迫在眸角我们看到政府都待于改革劳保前场债务按照劳动部为情的外面做的精算报告到去年底一次前场债务高达13.2兆每一年就增加一兆不改革的话每一年将来都会增加一点多兆的前场债务前场债务是 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
2749.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
2769.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
将来基金的余额不足以支付未来需付给予上千万的被保险人的法定义务支出的缺口也是组织总处定期公布的所谓的未来的或有给付的责任过去不改革然后就靠拨补3870 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
2773.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
2798.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
3870億才延後三年破產未來產業狀況顯然很不樂觀將來我認為沒有財源可以再繼續撥補了而且就算要撥補一年一千億的話13.2兆要132年才能夠彌平那精算報告也指出錢償債務代表勞保制度改革的迫切性需調高保費降低給付後延後退休等改革才能改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
2799.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
2813.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主計總署的預算籌備原則也強調應該建構永續穩定的年金制度為目標檢討保險財務收支失衡原因謀求改進但是從來就沒有針對失衡原因謀求改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
2815.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
2838.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
省纪部决算审核报告里面在重要施政议题查核里面虽然提了但是从来就没看到对老保不改革造成将来可能会波及整个财政崩溃的大问题有任何的琢磨再看下一页就是检讨台电亏损跟能源政策审核 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
2841.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
2851.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
重大施政問題的那個查核報告雖然也有提出但是也沒有觸及問題的核心首先第一個就是離岸光電的國產化政策造成台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
2854.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
2883.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
購電成本每年20年的通貨成本增加了9100億光電成本高於國際然後造成台電成本增加官商勾結貪腐事件層出不窮非核家園棄用穩連結的核電增加髒貴的煤氣發電增加造成台判大增然後籌編預算籌編原則又強調說因融入淨零排放的概念一方面又增加排放一方面又說預算要 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
2884.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
2893.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
要觸及淨零排放的概念賴總統還說要花九千億來實現淨零你這個能源政策就是造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
2894.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
2921.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
没办法实现近年的一个原因所以重要施政议题查哈也没提到再下一个就是国防支出暴增明年的预算国防支出就已经高达将近一兆占GDP的3.3%我们赖总统还宣誓说2030年前的国防支出要弄到GDP的5%照明年的GDP来算的话大概就是我们税数的48%请问在这种情况下排挤社福教科经济发展事项 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
2922.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
2925.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
違反籌編原則錢從哪裡來的相關的規定從財政惡化的趨勢來看國防擴增讓我們的政府不能實現賴總統所強調的經濟優先、民生優先、青年優先、弱勢優先最後我是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
2938.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
2953.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
就是审计长如果是审计报告一年一度在提出总结算的审核报告的时候才来我们立法院跟各位委员报告我觉得是有点不足所以建议最后一点就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
2954.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
2975.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
就是請審計長未來能夠經常向立院提出第三方的鑑定報告為什麼這樣說呢就是因為審計部的業務主要是查核預算的執行但是沒辦法溯及到預算籌編階段的一些缺失所以一年一次的決算審核報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
2976.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
2989.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我们才看到重要施政议题的查核报告而且都是事后观点对立院来讲已经无济于事所以我建议将来我们立法院可以对审计部提出一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
2990.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3016.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我觉得是很必要的要求就是请省纪部针对立法院跟行政院如果有预决算上面的争议的时候请省纪部提出鉴定意见书省纪长到立院报告他独立廉政专业的意见谢谢好 谢谢谢谢黄耀辉教授宝贵的意见谢谢您接下来我们请黄志聪教授请发表意见谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3019.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3039.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
主席 在座各位委員 還有各位的先進 大家好今天我很榮幸能夠來參加這個公聽會有關於省計長人事同意權審查的公聽會基本上來講 我受邀的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3040.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3062.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
并不论是这个陈瑞敏省级长我现在也完全没有见过面那关于这个人事同意权的案子的审查我只能根据这个司法性还有续任的优缺点还有过去他的这个政绩还有一些争议还有社会各界的意见那未来的我们国家整个未来的发展那我来做一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3063.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3081.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
簡單的一個說明就是根據我的想法那當然沈記長陳瑞敏目前的任期是即將到十月一號就屆滿那任期是六年所以呢接下來我們就總統已經提名陳沈記長續任 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3083.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3100.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
已經將指紋送到立法院等待立法院進行人事統一選的一個程序那麼審計在我們國家的發展當中是非常非常重要的它有很高的地位它是在憲法地位上面它是監察院下面的一個機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3103.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3130.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
也是监察权的一环他执行所谓的审计权他也具有相当的独立性做专业的审计还有避免行政干预当然他的角色是非常非常重要的他是国家财政的一个守门员他是监督财政收支运预算执行的一个重要的一个机构另外他也是国会和监察院的一个辅助机构提供决算审查的依据 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3133.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3158.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
廉政和效能的保障者然後揭露浪費和低效率那它有很多的功能包括決算審核的功能包括財務收支查核的功能包括效能審計的功能包括專案調查還有提供監督資訊的功能那當然審計長是不是要續任那他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3160.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3180.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
優點它也有一些爭議在優點方面如果我們從制度和法律來看的話允許續任的話它是允許續任的因為它是符合法律上的規範程序也是合法的它的續任它可以避免空窗也可以確保監督的不中斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3183.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3201.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
從專業和績效方面來看可以延續數位的審計和效能改革另外可以降低交接成本利於長期計劃從公共利益角度來看跨年度專案可以全程監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3202.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3213.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那穩定領導提升社會的信心當然他有很多爭議那我再爬梳理一下他的爭議包括這個制度和獨立性的稍作到質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3215.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3243.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
续任恐怕会影响到他的独立性当然外界也在质疑这个续任之后他是跟政府的这个过于密切那么另外从效能和责任的检验的方面来看的话他有一些部分争议的案件没有妥善的追踪报告在审计报告用词里面有时候太过的轻微不够 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3244.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3259.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
不夠專注不夠精確另外從制度透明度不足的方面來看的話續任提名應該要更公開的討論立法院應該要求完整的績效報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3260.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3276.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那從替換的可能的優點來看的話那如果換了一個新的審計長的話可以帶來改革的效能或動能而且可以避免集中在同一個權力集中在一個人的手上那當然這個它正反面的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3278.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3305.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
論點的對照我有繪成一個表有興趣的先進可以參考一下我也去爬梳一下現任省紀長任內的一些重要的事蹟當然一上任的時候他很強調獨立 廉政 專業還有創新他也針對加強對重大建設的監督特別是防疫的特別預算部分當然很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3306.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3315.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
委員不覺得他有非常大的監督力道在這個事情上面那他 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3316.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3343.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
對於數位和審計的推動不遺餘力導入資訊科技工具提升效能當然委員的一些提案一些揭露一些弊案的揭露他也去查查包括職場霸凌的專案包括安定救援基金是否挪用的問題他也都有去進行最後總統就是肯定所以就給他續任 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3345.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3366.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
當然我覺得我看了一下相關的資料發現我們在座很多的委員對於省紀長任內很多的爭議都是覺得他監督不足成效有限有時候還會有一些誤讀的一些情況還有另外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3368.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3388.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
用此用具的不恰当但事实上它也有一些不错的作为包括推动数位审计导入大数据AI工具导入效能审计检验政策的成效另外它也追回了很多相关的经费 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3389.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3404.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那他也針對這個特別預算的部分他也跨年度監督防疫前瞻等重大的專案但這些東西基本上不管怎麼做基本上委員們還是不是那麼的滿意都是覺得他的監督力道不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3405.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3415.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那在2019年到2020年我也大概去了解了一下他大概追回的金額在2019年大概有14億2020年有12億2021年有10億2022年有15億2023年有11億2020年有9億雖然金額不是很多但是這也可以凸顯他在這個審計的過程當中他只要發現有所謂的資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3426.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3449.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
使用不符的情況基本上他就會做這樣的一個決定那當然如果我們從世界各國的這個審計的制度角度來看的話那美國的GLO大概就是這個審計展大概就是任期十年十五年那是非常久的那英國的話大概就十年所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3451.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3475.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們目前審計長是六年接下來如果在六年的話就是十二年基本上跟美國英國基本上是差不多可以維持一個比較長期穩定的審計的作為另外如果從專業和NGO的角度來看的話學者基本上是肯定數位審計的改革但是對於基金和特別預算的監督仍然不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3476.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3488.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
王耀輝黃老師說的大家有很多的意見在這個地方我相信這應該都是很多未來在野黨立法委員都可以用來作為質詢的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3490.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3506.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
從業界來看的話特別是各個會計或相關領域的一些業界來看的話是建議引進第三方的審計師提升專業和客觀性這剛剛我想王老師還有黃老師也都提過從公民團體的角度來看他比較想要了解到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3507.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3531.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
这个审计报告是在写什么所以如果审计报告能够更平易近人的话就可以让大家更能够了解到底做了什么到底有哪些缺失有哪些问题我想基本上对于这个社会大众的了解很有帮助那我的结论是这样就是说在法律上没有禁止续任的条款除非立法院改修法修法这个审计部的组织法 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3532.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3557.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
否则基本上是他们有严禁续任条款所以续任从法理上是被允许的但是社会期待透明 独立 还有问责这是我想社会上最大的期待当然支持续任的一方重视所谓的专业延续反对方着重所谓的独立性和问责的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3559.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3580.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我們可以看一下過去前面兩屆的審計長林慶隆審計長擔任了12年蘇政平審計長擔任了18年基本上都是很長時間的擔任這個位置所以對我們國家過去的審計工作做了相當大的貢獻當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3584.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3608.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
这个审计业务的推动不是只有审计人员我相信所有的人民我们全体人民只要能够提出一些相关的证据或是一些案子的话我相信他们都会去严查我相信只有靠审计人员是不够的因为我们的人手不是那么的足特别是未来我们的统总分配税款在114年只有4676亿那115年有8000多亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
3612.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
3633.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
成长了89%这些东西基本上来讲我们的预算增加了我们未来政府的支出增加了我们审计部门在审计的过程中要配合更多的人力所以我认为就是说如果在重视专业延续的考量之下考量可以续任但是必须要建立这个续任的考核每年向立法院提交 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
3634.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
3657.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
审计成果第二个在专业和公共利益之间取得平衡比如设立第三方审计咨询机制第三个要维持审计部门的公信力避免政治化这是以上我的浅见谢谢好 谢谢黄志聪教授宝贵的意见谢谢您接下来我们请登记第五号也是最后一位发言的教授陈庆才教授请发言谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
3659.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
3682.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好很高興有這個機會來參加此次的公聽會因為是對省紀長被提名人同意權的公聽會所以我的意見會偏重說明對被提名人過去六年任期內有什麼施政績效有什麼樣的施政作為來提供大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
3684.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
3705.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
不论是公司治理或者是政府的治理,审计稽查都是内部管理控制非常重要的一环。公司的内部集合工作是由内部集合人员来执行,公司的外部审计工作就是由会计师来办理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
3706.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
3713.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
政府機關的內部審核工作是由主計人員來執行外部的審計工作則是由審計人員來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
3716.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
3742.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
審計積查的功能要能有效的發揮內部審核和外部審計必須能夠適度的互動互補而且兩者都必須具備獨立客觀和專業能力這兩個基本條件本人因為過去在政府的主席系統服務多年向來和審計機關的審計人員有所互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
3745.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
3774.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
在擔任第五屆監察委員的期間因為監察業務和審計工作的關聯性所以和審計人員的互動更是平緩目前在台灣大學管理學院會計學系講授會計審計法規這樣的課程為了講授法規的內容和相關的審計實務所以一直以來都非常關切審計部的審計工作推展的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
3777.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
3798.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
審計法第69條有規定,審計人員的審計工作必須要做到以下的功能。審計機關考核各機關的績效,如果認為有未盡職責或者效能過低的這種情形,除了要通知該機關的上級機關長官以外,還要報告監察院。 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
3799.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
3808.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
如果是因為制度規章有缺失或者是設施不良就應該對機關提出建議改善意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
3809.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
3836.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
如果審計機關認為有可以提升效能或增進公共利益的地方就要對該機關或有關機關提出建議的意見審計機關如果發現有影響各機關施政效能營業效能或事業效能的潛在風險事項那麼可以對機關或者有關機關提出預警性的意見讓這個機關可以來討回因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
3839.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
3860.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
依照上述的規定政府的審計工作的重心已經從傳統的監督政府財務收支發展到促進政府提升市政效能更進而發展到提出前瞻性的預警意見來協助機關因應潛在風險也就是說從監督性的審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
3867.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
3874.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
發展到洞察性的審計再發展到前瞻性的審計被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
3876.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
3900.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
陳瑞敏先生在審計長六年任期內審計工作呢我查遍相關資料那麼有以下的成果那這些成果的說明或許可以回答剛剛先進所提到的一些問題第一在監督性的審計方面審計機關辦理各項財務收支的查核稽查各項為師行為總共節省 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
3903.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
3909.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
節省支出增加收入6年來有1193億元發現各機關聯員涉有財務上重大違私行為的案件有643案受處分的人高達2186人次 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
3925.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
3947.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
在洞察性的審計方面審計機關考核各機關的績效發現設有未盡職責或效能過低等案件總共有583案發現各機關制度規章有缺失或設施不良的情形提出建議改善意見總共1398項 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
3951.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
3960.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
審計機關認為各機關有可以提升效能或增進公共利益的情形,提出建議意見3892項。第三,在前瞻性的審計方面,審計機關對會影響各機關施政的潛在風險, |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
3970.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
3994.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
适时提出预警性的意见促使机关来妥为因应这样总共有903项所以以上审计工作6年的成果我个人认为可以合理的来判断审计部确实能够在具备独立客观和专业能力这两项条件之下顺利达成审计的职责 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
3996.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4025.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
另外被提名人陳惠敏先生在省議長六年任期內以我的了解是有多項的創新做法可是因為今天時間的關係我在這裡僅僅提出我認為具代表性的三項第一件從110年度開始推動行政機關的優良案例可以推廣擴散這樣的制度行政機關在自己的領域範圍內從事工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4027.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4042.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
不容易得知其他機關或者其他政府有什麼新的或者有效的施政作為那審計機關因為它查核中央政府還有地方政府的所有的機關所以如果在審計內員執行審計工作的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4045.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4061.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
有看到某個政府的某個機關他們正在推行創新又有成果的施政作為就可以透過審計機關的平台引介給其他機關來參考所以審計部就推動了這麼一個擴散的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4063.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4081.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
由各審計單位發掘各行政機關具有顯著成果的施政作為推廣到其他的行政機關來參考運用審計單元又可以具以這樣一個推廣來督促各機關有沒有提升它的施政效能這樣的作為總共有107案 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4083.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4107.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
第二 在112年 省基部成立了《關鍵省基議題發展委員會》推動關鍵省基議題發展的機制什麼是關鍵省基議題呢關鍵省基議題是跨機關 跨領域 受社會高度關注對國家的發展具有聲援影響的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4109.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4130.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
譬如说打击诈欺、毒品防治、空气污染、改善所得分配等等重大的议题。那么这些议题经过审计部审计的结果,他把它归纳、整理、纳入中央政府总结算审核报告以专章来表达。 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4131.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4151.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那這樣的關鍵審計議題因為專長表達它的內容跟審核結果就契合各界關注的焦點而且很容易完整的閱讀並且了解那這樣一個做法相當受到媒體及社會大眾的關注及肯定這個機制也進一步發揮了審計機關協助政府發現問題解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4158.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4173.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
促進國家長期發展的功能第三 審計部建立了數位審計制度剛有幾位先進都有提到來提升審核效率及效果政府的審計能力原本就不充分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4174.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4195.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
近年來,因為政府責能擴張,審計的工作量也隨之增加。再加上,審計工作範圍擴大,就像剛剛所講的,從監督性的審計發展到洞察性的審計,再發展到前瞻性的審計,那這個工作量就增加很多,那麼就更顯得審計人力更不足。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4196.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4216.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
因為人力不足,就必須善用科技來協助並提升審計工作。審計部在111年增設第六廳,成立了數位審計發展委員會,推展創新數位審計。這個做法不但有效節省審計人力,簡化總決算審核報告的編報作業, |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4218.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4235.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
透过科技的应用更是有效的提升了审计技术跟品质所以中上所述本人认为被提名的陈瑞敏先生是适合担任审计长一职以上谢谢大家好谢谢陈建才教授宝贵的发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4236.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4248.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我們各黨團推薦的學者專家均已經發言完畢現在我們進行審查小組委員的詢問首先我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言賴思寶委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4253.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4272.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
謝謝主席在場的先進媒體記者女士先生會長工作夥伴接下來就這次對省記長進行同意權的公聽會我這裡提出的是專長及人力調配應對新版才化法以及調整審核評鑑模式來落實激勵課則 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4275.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4301.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
大凡在威權統治的社會學者 學子都被要求要背誦國家領導人的重要言語比如說就我們這個世代在場多數我們都曾經聽過兩位蔣總統所留下來的一些言詞比如說蔣經國先生在晚年提到了時代在變環境在變潮流也在變以此 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4301.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4329.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
作为国民党在中华民国推动民主化的一个依据但是当拒绝改革的时候也有人会说但有所变有所不变今天我们就与沈记长的审查其实是就原任的人进行续任的审查这个公听会其实人选不变那么对不起这个因为我刚刚在讲OK好那么这人选不变 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4330.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4331.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
過去他這些年的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4332.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4360.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
其实已经制定有评价并不是对新任人选进行通行审查有些推论所以人不变那什么在变呢好我们来看一下审计权有没有变审计的职权诚如刚刚几位学者所说有财务审计有绩效审计财务审计就合法性进行审计绩效审计有一些绩效性的审计还有财务为师的审查当然对于未竞职责者要报告上级机关还有监察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4360.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4389.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
制度缺失者要提出改善建议有可以增进公益者要提出建议意见甚至刚刚也有提到了对于潜在风险的事项比如说劳保的潜在负债要提出预警性的意见这都是审计权应该含有的项目接下来我们看审计单位的职能外部监督政府财务所以除了机关所长一条鞭尸的领导之外审计机关也放入了这样的一个机构来进行但是我们要强调的这是一种事后监督各政府机关 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4390.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4406.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
就像監察權跟立法權的最大的一個很大的差別監察權是事後權但是如果當事人有不法或違私的責任的時候呢譬如說財務上的違私要送上級那麼要負起刑責或是懲戒的處分那麼如果執行效能不彰可以提出審計報告機關要回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4409.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4436.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
而当事人要负政治责任好了这里面又出现一个问题审计法有没有要求刚刚学者所提出的要提出的鉴定报告有没有能力在行政权和立法权发生争执的时候进行第三方客观的一些建议很抱歉目前宪政的体制当中并不是由监察权来扮演这个角色是由司法权如果我们宪法规定的由宪法法庭依据宪诉法来进行 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4437.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4464.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
立法權跟行政權是否是合憲性的審查如果還跳出了一個監察權的審計長可以就兩院的爭執或是行政權的重大政策予以張皮那不只要修法可能還要修憲因此對於審計法目前在沒有變的情況之下我們來看一看那是什麼變了人選不變法制不變那麼什麼變了 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4466.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4484.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
在于我们看到的有人说财政是数证之母财政是所有行政最重要的一个核心所以什么变了呢攸关财政的财政收支划分法变了这个变迁我们来回顾一下当中我们看到财政收支划分法顾名思义它有三个块面 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4485.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4514.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
第一個就是統籌分配款這當中有垂直的分配跟水平的分配垂直分配當中針對要分配的所得稅營業稅和貨物稅進行跟中央跟地方的百分比的分配但是更重要的就是水平的分配分配到地方的統籌分配稅款根據什麼方式來分配個縣市呢基本上會根據它的財政貢獻度營利事業越多的統籌分配稅就越多可以說在這個制度之下是負者橫負 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4515.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4541.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
平者易平因此统筹分配税款的分配它还有个背后的因素待会会讲就是除了税款中央跟地方的水平垂直分配之外适权是否跟着财政一定移转这是我们要关切的统筹分配税款不只关心到水平的分配社会上的公示是否允当也是要垂直的分配是否能够将宪法当中所规定的中央跟地方分权 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4542.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4569.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
依據這些財政的收入來予以分配那我們來看一下一般性補助款一般性補助款基本上有教育補助社會福利補助基本設施補助其他基本支出還有平衡預算補助這當中對於經常性普及性基本建設及維運性質的還有很重要的財政均衡其實因為對於財政容忽不同的縣市當涉算你的基本財政需求之後我們中央政府會對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4570.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4592.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
比例予以做區隔意思是說理解到各地方這種的承擔能力跟他的基本需求之後在這個負擔比例上予以調整老實說一般性補助能動的也很少那什麼才是最重要的財政目標呢有人說受人以魚不能受人以魚前者的魚是魚後者的魚是釣竿所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4592.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
4618.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們看到一個半的社會現象如果所得高的他其實不需要協助收入低的在基本需求相同的情況下他需要額外的協助協助他什麼呢協助他進行自我的投資比如說有人在說社會流動會因為教育學歷的提高那麼他未來的社會收入會提高把這個道理回來看一下那到底在我們新版財劃法當中或者原版的財劃法當中誰扮演這個角色就是計劃型補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
4619.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
4636.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所謂的統籌分配款在水平分配根據財政貢獻度來分配平者易平負者橫負在一般性補助款來講大家的需求大致是各有各自的需求中央市地方的需求跟承擔能力與調整真正能夠達到改善城鄉分差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
4637.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
4665.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
調節我們國家支出的就是屬於計劃型的補助他鼓勵各地方政府主動提案來提高對未來的貢獻度當這樣的計劃型補助發生效果的時候各地方政府他在未來的財政貢獻度就開始有所改變會讓原來收入低的有可能因為這樣的收入提高之後減少對中央的仰仗但是我們看到這次財務法法他最大最大被討論的是這些課題嗎很抱歉不是他被討論到的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
4666.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
4694.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
對不起怎麼不會動了呢OK好就是什麼就是引起爭議的財政收支劃分法第16條之一在議長的版本當中錯誤的將本島的19個縣市跟離島的3個縣市分別都以全國的22個縣市做分母結果造成了在本島的16個19個縣市有0.2的款項無法分配結果呢在離島的部分有99.8%無法分配這樣的一個低級荒唐居然出現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
4697.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
4719.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
蔑視我們立法過程的程序性正義而發生了這樣的一個低級錯誤卻成為這次財化法這整個重點我們來看一下回歸到審計權當財化法被這樣的一個進行破壞肢解之後我們看到了原來原來本來地方政府執行的成效也是審計的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
4720.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
4736.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是我們看到的在審計報告當中說到了有關於地方政府在計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況還有管理作業欠當的情況之下在野黨卻一味的挾著國會的多數強行碾壓提高地方政府的財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
4738.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
4760.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
反而中央因輕應辦的事務沒有足夠的裁員來支撐請問下這樣的私人權分配有符合裁劃法它本質上的精神嗎又考慮到地方政府的執行量能還有在未來我們的審計人力的分佈各地方的審計室是否有足夠的人力來救地方政府額外增加的這些裁員去執行同樣的事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
4762.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
4787.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
而进行审计呢我要强调一次在市权没有重新调配的情况之下地方政府额外征收的财政收入他只在执行同样的正式同样规模的正式支出这种情况之下审计就面临到一个很庞大的挑战那另外我们也看到了在113年度中央政府的总决算审核报告当中他提到要去以检讨评鉴模式提高鉴别度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
4788.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
4816.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我们的审计不是只有针对中央政府针对地方政府在未来庞大的财政收入相同的正式支出他怎么样去检讨建立这样的模式设定标准而且用同样的方法更重要的中央依考核结果增减地方性一般性补助管的分配其实过去历来都未达增减未达1%表示过去中央政府在既有的财政收支发展上下对地方的激励跟克折的效果是有限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
4817.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
4847.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以最后我们要主张要审计要审查的不是审计长个人过去的表现审计部的整体表现我们主张审计部应该针对地方政府调配审计人员及补足具专业能力的审计人员应应对新版的财政收支方法执行审计业务审计部也应该确实督导调整审核和平建模式标准及方法以提升鉴别度并落实激励及克制的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
4847.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
4862.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
總而言之今天我們要審計的不是一個審計長個人的一個是否升任他要審查整個審計制度在財化法遭到破壞之下未來的挑戰以上好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員寶貴的發言接下來我們請賴思寶委員發言黃珊珊委員請準備謝謝主席韓院長那麼以及各位先進那我們今天是對於這個陳審計長他的一個續任我們要不要給他同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
4878.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
4904.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那這段時間我聽到一些聲音本黨黨團的委員大概都是比較正面的態度看這個事情主要的原因就是因為我們在每一次請他來特別是財委會質詢的時候他基本上大概立委有要求的他都會照實的回答而且提供很多的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
4906.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
4935.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這個是他正面的這一部分那現在呢我剛看到前面幾個專家學者談到的也就是我心裡的一個看法就是我們的沈記長其實我常常認為沈記長是手拿大刀要砍啊這個大刀砍了好不好啊就看沈記長的表現那過去呢這可以比較林慶榮跟現在的陳瑞銘比如說以在人員政策這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
4936.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
4960.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
林青龍就講了怎麼樣他語氣很平淡可是態度很堅決他敢一針見血的說你這個行政部門什麼問題比如說他就這樣講他說人員轉型矛盾這個話就講得一針見血2018例如2018年天然氣接收站跟再生能源進度的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
4962.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
4979.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
他個人定調可是用詞潛質堅定有力看我們陳瑞民省紀長現任的省紀長他的用詞是什麼他公開答詢的時候語調溫和強調查核發現在講話所以很明顯地看這兩個省紀長調調個性不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
4988.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5008.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
就原來的林青龍是什麼問題我單刀直入竊進去你有這個問題我們的陳審計長就揭露有人說他什麼你看表面上他都回答要查這個要查那個但是實質上到最後這個輕輕放下 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5008.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5032.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我的感覺是這樣子就整體的這樣子這幾年來就是他高高的舉起是我們立委要求他舉起所以第一個我要批評他的是他的主動性是不夠的比如說我們最近剛才中委員提到的這個地方財政數字化文化的問題這個財化法各位財化法修了快20年有人講有人批評 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5034.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5056.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
有人批評說這個萬年總招我們叫萬年才化法修了20年修不過好不容易在去年上一屆的時候把它修過了修過了後來現在行政院抓了一個尾巴說這個離島的部分你沒有處理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5057.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5085.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個就修16條之一按照我們跟韓院長這樣配合的默契還記得把特別預算我都記得很清楚啊禮拜四早上巡打75個人登記到每一個委員的提案200多個提案我處理完我是召委處理完我就交給我們的韓院長連夜的協商到半夜清晨一點多我非常佩服韓院長的這個體力跟毅力 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5087.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5115.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
第二天刪除了我們速度可以這麼快所以這個小吃16之1要修的話我認為一個禮拜就可以搞定按照馬上就給他進負荷毒查尾協商一下子就可以進去的但是行政院不是這樣子抓住這個無限的放大說這個採化法有問題要重新來那我請問請問那行政院有沒有版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5116.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5128.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
到現在為止行政院完全沒有版本行政院在混行政院在混才畫法因為剛才有委員提出來我就特別來講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5129.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5155.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那大家都知道大家不要見數不見零啊中央政府給地方政府的三個錢第一個錢統籌分配稅款第二個錢一般補助款第三個錢計畫型補助款以台北市為例他們都說喔台北市拿最多拿450億啊統籌分配稅款對不起一般補助款他扣了100億回去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5156.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5180.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
計畫性補助款扣了300多億回去了所以統統等於幾乎原地踏不踏這個就是現況這時候審計長要介入啊審計部要介入啊你就發現到我們的審計長對於爭議的題目不敢碰不敢碰他除了什麼立委質詢的時候提出來有沒有 有我這個人講話都很公道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5181.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5190.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我都按照數字來講話比如說雞蛋 超市雞蛋神經病 有啊那是什麼 對不起那是立法院排床報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5192.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5218.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
立委要求他就調查了 立委給我做的我只好做啊 就變成這個樣子所以主動性非常不夠他有提到了 你看這個審計部辭 農委會112年3月開放雞蛋進口專案造成損失費用超過5億超過5億 這個他具體的陳述 他做到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5218.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5233.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
可是我覺得那時候已經吵得沸沸揚揚如果沒有排中央報告我不知道審計報告在哪裡我不知道審計報告在哪裡所以這時候我就說他一上台我就告訴他你是拿一支大刀結果這個大刀什麼時候要回 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5236.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5261.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
他發現要有人告訴他 他才敢揮啊沒有人告訴他不敢揮啊這個沈繼昌做的 我就覺得力道就稍微那個氣勢力道就稍微差了一點這是第一個 我要提的極端的部分第二個 對於政策 他敢不敢去沈繼昌我的看法 我在這裡這麼久沈繼昌完全不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5263.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5286.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
幾乎不敢比如說這兩天我們的發電我們的備轉容量剩下3.8%橘色很可怕可能很快變成紅燈橘燈變紅燈變黑燈就確定了審計部要不要介入這時候要不要介入什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5288.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5309.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
現在可以用的都用了 新達電廠用了 林口電廠用了 頭農用了 電不夠我沒有看到審計部對這個事情有什麼看法因為現在立法院修會 沒有立法院的壓力 他就沒有動 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5310.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5333.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我覺得比較一樣的在這裡當然立法院壓力給他 我要承認講我們只要告訴他要做這個 要做那個 他會做而且做了這個效果 這個數字也都呈現所以我給他的是 我是很客觀的講在人員領域的表現他叫誠實中立 揭露不足他很誠實 很中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5338.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5365.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那升級長要中立嘛 可是揭露不出比如講 我再講一個具體的 河市河市 我都記得很清楚啊有一次我要專門 我個人喔這個開車道 也不是說我開車啦 反正有人給我開開到去找河市 我們要參觀河市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5367.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5390.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
結果找不到牌子他連牌子都拆掉了我找不到地方進去裡面區好大 找不到牌子進去後來才發現有個小小的牌子何時才能夠進去看這樣的一個場我們的馬秀魯教授我很尊敬的我們政大的同事馬教授這麼專業當過監委都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5396.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5403.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個會計準則 你都合適報廢掉了將近3000億的資產 為什麼要掛在資產當然你應該掛負債啊你要掛負債的話 你資產幾乎等於零了剩下就是一些你當作破的爛鐵去賣可能剩100億吧 剩150億吧但是你要掛將近3000億 2800多億的資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5422.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5448.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這個老實講這個能夠通過我們會計準則嘛像這個道道地地省計長的責任但是呢他還沒有講他就是模模糊糊他的話是這樣子我唸給大家聽查核 核四停建後龐大資產未減損督促經濟部處置這說這聽不懂啊我查到了你們自己去處理啊所以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5450.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5475.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這個我們的審計上第一個主動性不夠第二個務虛大於務實因為實際上的東西我覺得不是太夠那麼當然了這個我最後的投票要投yes或者no下午的質詢我再來決定謝謝好 謝謝賴時保委員寶貴的發言接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言陳培宇委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5479.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5507.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
谢谢院长还有各位学者专家我想今天非常重要的是针对沈记长的人选的审查那我想台湾民众党我们的立场非常的清楚当然就是希望以非常理性跟务实的角度来审查这位沈记长的资格那诚如刚刚所很多教授所说的其实他的资格上面应该是没有太大的问题那现在就是说中间的我们对于沈记长的期许还有他应该保持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5507.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5537.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
独立性以及他对国家的这些责任那是不是在我们的标准里面能不能够希望未来的人事同意权通过与否都应该要有一些相关的主张那首先审计法本身审计部的最重要的职权是要审核收支跟决算那稽查财务跟财政上的不法或不忠于职务的行为那针对考核财务效能还要核定财务的责任也就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5537.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5554.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
省纪部除了独立专业它还需要更主动积极的去考核行政单位的财务效能还有核定它的财务责任但是过去几年的省纪部的执行职权的行使上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5554.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5569.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
每一年都會透過所謂的總決算的審核報告還有專案報告來提供相關的意見那當然行政機關在很多的報告裡面有非常多的缺失然後他們也有提出相關的市政上的建議跟改進方針 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5570.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5597.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
立法院作為監督機關我們大部分很多的資料也都來自於所謂監察院的審計報告成為立法委員質詢的內容這大概是中華民國特有的一個機制也就是因為我們五權憲法的關係把監察權跟調查權都分出去給了監察院所以其實本來應該隸屬於立法院的相關職權被切割出監察院甚至到審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5598.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5619.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以就形成了預算由立法院審但是決算由審計部審審完之後再向立法院報告的這個比較全世界獨有的一個機制所以就會造成審計部的獨立性跟專業性尤其他又要經過總統提名以及立法院同意所以在任期保障上面希望他能夠維持原來的獨立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5620.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5644.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
但陳如剛有些專家所說的也擔心說因為總統提名續任那推他對行政機關的這些立場那是不是可能會受到執政黨的影響這個也是我們在這次審計長人選上面需要去考慮的最重要的原因那陳審計長在他任期期間當然也提出了許多的審計報告就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5645.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5668.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
內容也有找到問題但是大部分就像剛剛賴世寶委員說的大部分都是外面已經風風雨雨之後審計部才突然驚覺到或發現到當然這過程中在這幾年尤其在我們這一屆新國會的時候已經發生了幾個案子首先第一個是勞動部有關謝玉榮許明春的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5669.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5683.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個Joy Andy基金是外界風風雨雨吵鬧不休之後在立法院審計長回答說他認為說將近有五千萬不合規定那現在到這幾天已經經過法院的判決Joy Andy基金的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
5684.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
5707.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
用途不符相關的規範謝偉榮也被判了四年六個月不過如果審計部在相關查核上面如果在之前可以更積極或者是了解得更深入的話可能就不至於有這樣的狀況發生第二個是美軍的軍火商福報的軍購售價高達五十四億這在這個過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
5708.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
5725.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
从立法者的角度我们只能说匪夷所思所以审计部的相关的过程里面在查核对美军购的部分他们有发现这样的状况这是一件好事但是怎么可以发生这是我们觉得很匪夷所思54亿的金额 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
5726.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
5750.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
第三個部分是省紀部長期對於魚電共生都有相關的糾正報告而且講得很清楚省紀部清楚的說有七成所謂的魚電共生只有電沒有魚但是我們的漁業署一樣可以在裡面完全找一大堆理由跟藉口不過一個颱風就發現我們的魚電共生真的只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
5752.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
5768.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
電沒有魚而且可能連電現在也都沒有了第四個部分是審計部的報告裡面指有關超市雞蛋進口的採購瑕疵這個事情也是外面風風雨雨之後突然間發現了續產會僅憑農業部的一個LINE的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
5771.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
5787.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就辦理相關的撥款作業而且產生了採購上面嚴重的程序問題可是這個案子也是一直送到地檢署才發現有這麼嚴重的狀況超市雞蛋續產會被詐領了將近六千多萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
5787.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
5812.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
也就是說這些東西都應該是在我們審計的過程裡面就應該完整的去看它的憑證、它的程序那我們是不是都要等到外界來質疑之後我們審計部才後知後覺這才是我們今天大家這個國家既然有這麼完整的審計制度為什麼還一直有這麼多的弊案發生第五個部分是審計部長年以來都說 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
5813.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
5831.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
特别预算举债支印导致政府的债务已经到120年底已经累积到将近5兆6千亿每一年审计部都说不应该全数已用税金剩余支印的政府支出这件事情但是每一年行政院都在做一样的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
5831.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
5848.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
也就是說我們現在的很多的審計部提出的報告但是行政機關依然顧我的情況非常的嚴重那另外就是審計部從我們給相關的調查權跟審計權其實它有非常多的工具但是從110年104年以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
5854.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
5868.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
監察院在審計法裡面其實21條規定得很清楚審計機關或審計人員對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出可以事前拒簽或事後剔除要追繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
5869.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
5890.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
審計法21條給審計部有這麼大的權力但是從101年以前從民國79年到101年中央政府總預算的查核報告裡面都有被剔除的狀況但是104年以後中央政府總決算就再也沒有剔除的數字了也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
5891.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
5920.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
不知道是審計部自廢武功還是自我閹割忘記了自己有這麼大的一把刀審計法21條給他這麼大的權利可以去剔除他認為不合法或不當的支出到今天為止這將近20年來審計長審計部已經不再使用這個法條所以我們認為說剛剛講了這麼多的弊案如果按照相關審計法的話其實審計部是有這個責任去再 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
5921.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
5943.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
決算的時候把它剔除甚至要求相關機關追繳另外審計法74條經審計機關決定剔除跟繳回的款項如果沒有能夠追償的話他還要查明相關機關的長官或他相關的主辦人員會計人員必須要追到所謂的鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
5944.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
5959.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
连带负损害赔偿责任但是这一条目前为止几乎没有机关被追缴所以我们的行政机关才会一直的违法乱纪所以审计部跟审计长 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
5960.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
5987.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
當審計長來拜會我們的時候我給他的第一句話就是審計部應該要吃誠實豆沙包你知道哪裡不對就應該大聲的說你知道哪裡有錯就應該不但是事前然後事後的剔除跟追繳這兩個權利都在審計法裡面只是你要不要用所以我們給審計長一個非常大的要求就是有這樣的權利請不要忘記你有這樣的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
5988.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6016.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
最重要的是我看到審計部每一年的年報上面都講了一句話說政府只能日益擴增財政收支巨額增加但是審計業務成長迅速可是審計人力都不足這30年來的年報每一次都有這樣的文字這是一個需要改革的事項的話我認為接下去的審計部就應該講得很清楚你到底人力不足在哪裡而不是因為人力不足所以你就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6017.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6032.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
做到有一些事情你沒查到所以是人力不足作為你的藉口我想這個部分是我們今天對沈記長不管他通過的與否將來都應該在他的工作上怎麼樣去增加第一 運用他本來就應該有的權柄 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6033.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6049.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
审计法21条74条另外在审计法17条审计人员发现各机关人员有财务上不法或不忠于职务上的行为就要报告该审计机关而且通知各长官处分之今天发生谢宏的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6049.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6070.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
就是我們前面出了錯後面也出了錯甚至機關自己官官相護長官違法底下的人也不敢甚至跟他一起共同違法挪用國家的資源我想這個才是我們今天對審計部希望他能夠有武器要懂得用 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6071.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6087.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
用了之後要按照國家的規定依照相關的權責去追究責任而且最重要的是要讓有責的人負起責任好 謝謝黃珊珊委員發言接下來我們請陳佩瑜委員發言林思明委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6088.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6107.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好 謝謝院長也謝謝各位出席的專家學者給予寶貴的意見那也非常謝謝所有列席的委員還有媒體的好朋友們那關於沈記長的同意權的部分剛剛其實在野黨的藍白委員也都表達了同意那這個部分我們非常期待後續的同意權在進行相關投票的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6108.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6129.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我們可以看到一個正向的結果那我想要回應剛剛有好幾位委員都提到新版的才化法那既然提到新版的才化法我們就要問當新版的才化法讓各個縣市首長的錢包變得又厚又大的時候同時他們的公事包是不是也把該做的事都帶回去了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6130.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6153.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
確實在之前的修法版本當中,是權分配的事情並沒有明白的說清楚,導致有非常非常多的爭議,我想是後續朝野黨團必須要共同面對的。但如果回到財化法地方財政支出以及收入變得如此充裕的情況下,也就是我說的錢包變得又厚又大的時候,我們就要來問, |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6154.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6182.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
地方縣市首長如何在一般人民最關注的相關業務上積極的投入並且把預算把每一分錢都用到最好的地方例如說幾個非常重要的關鍵是一般人民非常在意的也常常是被很多藍白的地方首長拿出來作為政治口水的部分我想不管是民進黨、國民黨或是民眾黨團必須要一起面對這個困境第一個是關於教育的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6183.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6206.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
对于审计人员来说我认为审计的意义就是要确保所有花费在教育部分的每一个花费都是必须留下真正的投资还有展现它的价值而不是累积的债务以及浪费对于下一代的孩子们来说现在的大人各位在座的我们有没有在相关的事情上看见我们对于 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6206.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6224.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
同時實踐我們自己對於下一代的承諾因此我想審計長的相關任務剛剛非常多委員也說了如何在地方財政地方審計工作確確實實做到更多更好同時也不是只是去計算一個政府單位到底花了多少錢而是去檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6225.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6247.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這些錢對於孩子們的生活對於孩子們的學習對於下一代的教育到底產生了哪些實質的影響我想這是世代公平的核心也是我們對於未來審計工作尤其在地方縣市政府的審計工作非常非常大的期待我們希望審計工作不要只有停留在數字的檢查還要有更深的思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6247.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6262.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
到底這些教育經費有沒有辦法縮短成鄉差距有沒有辦法改善弱勢孩子的處境有沒有辦法增進所謂都市地區孩子在受教育權受到照顧的同時還能夠有品質的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6262.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6282.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
可不可以真正為台灣的下一代教育環境創造更公平的起跑點我想因為教育業務是地方縣市首長非常重要的工作我們也希望在相關審計工作未來的規劃當中務必要把新版財化法所造成的困境在地方財政的部分要做出更實質更有意義的監督還有審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6284.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6309.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
除了教育之外我也想要談一談文化通常在文化預算是在各個縣市政府都被低估的預算甚至被視為是一個附屬看不出立刻的價值可是我必須要說文化才是整體社會的根才是最重要的投資我們可以看到如果在文化上我們不願意進行投資我們可能只有一次一次的放煙火我們只去看錢花了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6309.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6330.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
但是我們卻沒有能力看見所謂文化投資的社會價值的話其實對於審計工作來說也是一個非常可惜的地方我們同時希望透過審計工作在地方財政文化相關工作的落實讓更多全國的人民可以了解文化不是浪費文化是讓社會變得更加的強韌 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6331.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6346.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
接下來我要談的是除了教育跟文化工作之外事實上一般人到底如何看待審計工作審計工作看起來雖然相關報告剛有很多委員也都說了是作為立法委員問政的參考但我們也要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6347.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6369.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢人民也很想知道所有各個層級的政府花費到底對人民造成了什麼實質的生活改變創造了什麼美好的長遠的未來因此我認為站在人民的角度我們期望未來的審計工作或是相關報告或是相關的機制可以更加的透明公平以及鼓勵更多人的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6370.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6385.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我相信人民不只想要知道錢有沒有花掉人民不會只想知道錢的執行率而是人民很想知道錢到底花在哪裡有沒有真的改善我們的生活所以我希望未來的審計工作至少要做到三件事情第一個資訊公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6387.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6410.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
所謂的資訊公開是有沒有機會透過更新的科技更新的人力更年輕的觀點把專業的數據以及報告轉化成一般人看得懂的語言讓審計報告不是少數人的專業文件而是全民都有能夠掌握的工具以及相關的論述還有對於認識自己所繳的每一分納稅錢的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6410.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6433.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
第二個,社會參與,有沒有機會讓更多的公民,像是各式各樣的專業團體、文化團體、家長團體、教育團體、各式各樣所在意的議題團體、專業社群,都能夠參與對審計結果的討論,讓這些報告不要只是放在書架上或是放在網站上,而是可以促成更多公民對話的可能。 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6434.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6459.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
第三個在現在AI工具發達的情況之下審計單位如何引進更實質更有效率同時真的可以發揮功能的數位工具讓人民也好讓相關政府單位讓相關機關都能夠在這個全新工具並且透明平台的協助底下提升人民對政府的信任同時也提升政府在預算執行的效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6460.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6477.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
接下來我要談審計對一般人來說是一個算帳的工作但是我們要問這是過去的觀點而這也是我們所引以為賴的一個很重要的重點但是對於未來我們如何看待每一分錢所花費的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6477.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6493.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
如同我剛剛所一再強調的人民很想知道錢造成了生活什麼樣的影響對於我們所關注的教育議題社會轉型的議題文化深耕的問題各式各樣的議題有沒有帶來實質的改變因此我也想要提醒未來的沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6494.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6518.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
除了在技術以及相關資訊的能力上有所提升人力有所提升之外我們如何在審計工作加上所謂價值的提升我們希望要求未來的審計長不是只是一個會計師或是一個很會算錢很會幫人民把關的審計長而是一個價值的守護者而所謂的價值我想要談的是三件事情第一個是所謂世代爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6519.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6535.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
每一分花費有沒有把財政的負擔留給下一代有沒有在這一代創造了更重要更重要的社會價值我認為世代爭議是審計工作很重要的一環接下來是相關財政的花費有沒有辦法維護公平以及公正 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6536.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6560.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
讓這些公共利益公平公正的可能性讓資源分配的更加合理不要因為地域或者是背景造成更大的落差就如同現在新版三度通過的才化法所呈現的困境一樣接下來我想要提的是神蹟工作可不可以讓人民對於社會對於政府更加的信任讓人民相信政府的花費有其意義有其價值而不是浪費 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6561.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6587.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因此我想守護世代爭議維護公共公平還有提升社會信任絕對是審計工作非常重要的一環那對於未來的審計長我也想要提出三個期待也就是三個視野對於世代公平照顧的視野相關觀點必須要放進去還有公平的視野還有社會的視野所謂的社會視野是審計部以及審計工作不只是政府內部的工作他要如何透過專業的審計報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6589.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6617.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
公開透明清明化之後讓全民也可以一起參與對於政府預算的監督我想這也是未來非常重要的工作我們也希望看到這個創新的可能性最後我想說沈機長的任命代表的不只是我們對於他個人專業或是整個專業團隊專業的信任我們更希望看到一個制度的承諾以及傳承如同剛剛有非常多委員所說的我們樂於並且看見他願意勇於揭露問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6618.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6639.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
敢於監督政府這樣的審計長當然是全民所期待的我們更希望讓人民在這個制度之下更相信這個政府更相信體制尤其是各個地方政府或是中央政府也好讓我們每一個在意相關議題的人都可以在這個審計制度之下看到政府對於人民的承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6640.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
6650.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
讓我們在意教育讓在意孩子未來可以在更公平的社會裡成長讓文化在更深厚的土地上扎根我想審計長並不是幕後的會計師而是很重要在整個社會民主傳承的守護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
6656.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
6682.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
尤其在預算分配使用上確實可以展現起民主價值我們也期待未來的審計長可以以誠信更多的勇氣讓臺灣的審計制度走得更好讓我們不要只是在計算數字而是可以一起守護價值守護人民守護更重要的財政分配正義以上 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員的發言接下來我們請最後一位登記第五號林思敏委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
6685.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
6709.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好,謝謝門院長。各位委員、各位先進,大家好。我想今天是我們審計長人事統一權的一個公聽會。審計長提名的是依照憲法行使的職權,為國家任命一個非常重要的職務。審計貫穿了從預算、會計到決算最重要的一個過程。 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
6710.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
6735.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
在審計法第二條的規定也明定了審計職權包含了監督預算之執行、核定收支命令、審核財務收支、審定決算、稽查財務及財政上不法或不忠於職務之行為、考核財務效能、核定財務責任、其他依法律因行辦理的審計事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
6737.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
6755.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
從本條的各款職權我們可以清楚了解到要具備被提名為審計長的條件並不容易且可以說是難度極高除了必須具有高度的一個專業的會計審計學的一個學士經驗外還必須在該領域兢兢業業擔任相當的一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
6763.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
6780.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
更要保持成績卓著優良作為該領域的一個權威才符合法定資格被提名我們審視續任的陳瑞敏審計長是否專才事任我個人是給予肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
6781.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
6795.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
從他擔任公職開始我們知道他是從基層開始一任行政院海岸選防署的會計長行政院主計處第一局局長六年前由主計總處政務副主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
6798.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
6823.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
或提名為省記長的被提名人一步一腳印腳踏實踢可以說在我國整體財政結構之下從預算、會計到決算從主計到總計表現稱職且具有相當豐富的經驗並且具有高度專業的一個權威但本席認為除了這些監督省和政府財務相關的實權外 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
6825.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
6849.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
更重要的是要讓隱藏在黑暗處的政府財政機閉或者是政策執行效力不彰或者並且影響或危害國家與人民權益時能夠透過審計職責的行使將各項弊端全部攤開在陽光下像是我們看到最近審計部揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
6850.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
6877.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
第一點截至二零二五年一月底已查核的漁電共生案場中有近七成未落實養殖事業形同有電無魚第二點在九月十一號省紀部也表示在一百一十一年到一百一十三年度一百一六五專線的電話總進線數分別為六十餘萬四十九萬以及五十餘萬通 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
6878.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
6894.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
其中每年近有逾五萬通的電話未能及時接通或提供諮詢或協助處理詐騙案件的通報以及款項圈存的攬阻等事項存在有量能不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
6897.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
6915.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
第三,我們在113年度,我們也看到中央政府的決算審查報告中,審計部也指出,勞動部在2022至2024年運用就業安定基金促進國民就業以及外國人聘僱管理及許可等計畫的政宣費以及推展費, |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
6916.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
6938.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
統籌辦理勞動節主題影片製作以及媒體宣傳勞動部臉書粉絲團的經營管理年節春聯以及紅包袋的製作部長三節禮品採購等案總共花了五千一百七十四萬但是這些經費的支出並未符合就業安定基金設置的目的以及基金的一個用途規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
6939.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
6963.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
此外,我們省紀部的報告也指出,我們國土署耗資數億建構的地下下水道監測系統,卻有高達850基建的監測站異常,站點比例逾半,其中未回報率高達71.88%。我們中央花這麼多治水的預算,所達成的成效, |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
6963.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
6980.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
卻不如預期第五 與民眾生活息息相關的台鐵省紀部同樣提到在公司化一年後雖然重大行車事故件數與員工離職率達標但涉及服務績效核心目標的準點率 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
6981.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
6995.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
達標率僅有93.14%甚至比公司化前一年度的95.98%還低更是自2019年持續改善後首度的反轉向下 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
6995.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7020.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
以上本席所舉的例子都是審計部透過執行獨立查核讓大家知道為何政府全力推轉綠電時相關弊案卻是層出不窮也讓全民了解為何在野立委需要透過預算提案來審查嚴格監督那些未依法規的支出更針對政府施政的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7021.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7049.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
执行度与成效性就由财务的集合将不足与需要改善的地方公开透明的呈现因此本席认为担任审计长最重要的资格能力除了熟悉审计工作与相关法规的专业外还需要有三大坚持第一能坚持持续维持并独立执行审计部的职权不受任何政党的指示影响 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7050.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7068.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
第二 堅持對於所有機關單位只要預算花費有不合支出規定者或執行成果績效有明顯落差等都應該要提出詳實的報告與建議依法審計不容許任何機關單位有所抗拒不配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7068.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7086.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
第三點 堅持對發生的弊案要從財務審計的角度將弊案中相關的金流支出或招標流程等將有缺失的機關單位與其因檢討改善支出的地方提出完整的審核報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7087.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7104.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
不容許有任何機關單位造假或不實回報我們期待省省紀長要堅持這些原則但是續任省紀長也還有不同的其他挑戰例如對於現在省紀事務工作上 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7104.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7122.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
若是遇到有機關不配合不提供相關詳實的資料內容而導致審計工作的拖延也應就現行相關的法規去審看提出是否有檢討或修法的空間此外114年審計部需要審核7976個機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7129.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7151.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
監督收支預算27兆餘元以現有省計人力727人計算平均每人監督377億元預算的執行更要到各地實地的查核省計人員的工作量是否會過重現有的人力是否足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7151.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7163.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
审核工作是否能够落实是否需要进一步的增进改善续任的审计长也必须要有长期完整的人力发展与训练规划 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7164.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7185.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
另外,在AI的时代,如何利用相关的数位工具建立完整的审计数据资料库,协助提升审计同仁工作上的串联与效率,让审计工作能进一步的数位化与智慧化,也是未来审计部内部改善提升重要的规划方向。 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7186.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7203.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
當然也會需要我們新任的審計長的一個長期藍圖最後本席期許未來審計長新任期開始後在制定審計政策方向時除了要更加強基本審計的工作外 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7204.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7222.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
更重要的是繼續保持獨立的洞察能力要有前瞻的方向不只是審計部要有這樣的能力現在的執政團隊必須要有這樣的基本概念站在審計角度最主要的就是點出問題提醒行政部門來檢討改進從預估風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7226.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7249.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
與前述其他方向中我們就可以看出端倪並且要落實政見的同時就必須看到問題在預算的編列上才不會躁進的直直往前衝因為每一筆錢都是我們人民納稅人的錢這些都不只是在我們審計上會看到的問題更是不分朝野都要面對並解決的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7252.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7272.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
本席另外也要特別向被提名人來提醒決算法第23條中可以清楚看到省進部肩負著審核各機關或者各基金決算每一筆預算編列的來源都是人民納稅人的辛苦錢省進部必須要能夠進行合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7273.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7289.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
適當效能及經濟面向的審計決算法對於決算的基本架構上是如此的宏觀尤其關乎國家百年大計永續發展的財政在審計體系上的建立應考慮以跨年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7289.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7312.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
跨領域、跨單位的方式來進行審核因為審計部不僅是政府財政的最後把關者更要將政府施政的缺失不及之處透過財務的審查把所有的弊端真實報告給全國民眾知道除審核政府的經費預算使用與施政目的相符合達到該有的績效成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7313.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7333.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
不淪為酬庸圖利的使用外也需要同步將中央與地方各機關單位在執行各項政務時是否還有任何困難或需要支援之處提出相關的建議與改善做法本席期盼未來的新任省紀長持續為人民的學安全把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7334.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7348.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
即使將來廢除監察院也要繼續讓審計部秉持超然獨立提升審計同仁的工作能力以及改善工作環境與工具去執行與負擔審計部的重要職務以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7349.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7368.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好 謝謝林士明委員寶貴的發言接下來我們要進行最後一個程序要請各位學者專家針對剛才我們審查小組委員的詢問提出綜合答覆每位學者專家時間三分鐘我們首先請呂育成 呂教授再次發言好嗎謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7370.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7385.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
主席在座各位委員各位先進剛才聆聽各位委員以及先進的意見我主要提出兩個回應第一個我覺得我們可能還是得回到審計法的一個第二條的規定審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7390.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7403.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
他所要處理的議題非常的多,但是整體而言,我們可能還是在DF提到,他必須要去做考核財務效能,然後考核財務的責任。換句話說,我覺得審計的這個工作,它其實是一個專業而獨立的一個財務的幕僚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7410.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7428.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那剛才很多委員所提到的,其實已經涉及到政策面,或者是一個體制面。這裡就是我個人主張,應該還是要回歸,徵求條文第七條,它要把它融入到監察院,或是監察權的這個權力來行使。 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7429.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7446.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
否則真的會產生我們說監察院跟立法院乃至於行政院各機關之間事權的一個模糊那我覺得如果要求審計部然後主動的去介入這些相關的不管你是用調查或介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7446.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7468.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
反而會讓整個議題更加的產生爭議性那我覺得所謂的兩害相權取其輕還不如維持審計部一個中立的客觀的專業的功能這是第一個意見第二個事實上剛才委員們所提到的這些不管是政策也好 確實是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7469.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7497.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
但是我覺得這個問題最後的處理方式可能還是要由立法院以及監察院來發動那麼審計部我覺得它還是要保持一個客觀跟中立性它主要的角色就是非常誠實、如實地去把相關的資料乃至於財政收支做一個具體的呈現至於這些收支後面所代表的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7499.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7517.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
以及關於這些數據應該要做什麼樣的一個處理或者是什麼樣的一個討論我覺得這個權利是立法院乃至於監察院應該責無旁貸的事情審計部反而不應該太過於主動的去介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7518.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7532.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個機關的這個運作的一個過程中那我覺得這樣反而可以讓這個審計部它的獨立性跟專業性獲得確保以上是我個人的回應 謝謝好 謝謝李教授的二讀反應 謝謝接下來我們請馬秀如 馬教授請 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7534.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7549.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
主席各位我覺得聽到大家的發言就是我有一個感想每個人對於審計都有他的想像然後跟我在書上念到的不太一樣然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7552.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7557.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
審計就是要做得好的話這個審計者必須具備兩個條件第一個能力要強然後查得出錯第二個條件操守要好 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7567.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7570.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
查得出錯以後要能夠很明確的講出來講給別人聽得懂所以剛剛在我報告的時候我有去辨認說一個我們這邊的省機長他做了哪些事情他有去辨認查核的題目然後有去找外界的人來幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7588.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
7591.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那麼有一個關鍵會讓他辨認出來的審計題目是那個審計議題是可以在關鍵會的委員的看法下面是可以提升可以改善人民的生活的然後再來就是辨認完議題以後去查核的時候他有去幫忙這些這些查核人員基層的查核人員那麼有去譬如說去設這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
7617.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
7618.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
去教導他的同仁們怎麼樣去查核我有多少時間,我可以講很久嗎?不可以嘛,對不對好,那我就不去講我自己的觀察我覺得他有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
7631.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
7634.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
然後再來的話,審計的報告也嘗試讓它可接近老百姓,不是讓每個人很滿意,但是有嘗試在做。我現在在評估審計長過去六年的績效,快要到六年。我的看法是這樣, |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
7653.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
7656.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們在評估一個人的績效的時候要考慮他所處的環境那個環境是在審計部在監察院下頭那麼監委現在院長很久沒有來上班了然後這個監委們第六屆監委我自己當第四屆監委我那時候的院長是王建宣王院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
7677.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
7682.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
就是在評估一個人的績效的時候要考慮他所處的環境在那個環境下頭能做到這樣就像剛剛林委員有提出來說魚電共生那就查了以後有魚沒電70%他已經很明確地列出這些數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
7700.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
7728.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
然後也很就是剛剛陳委員這個陳老師陳教授在報告的時候也說我們的那個合法性的集合不是績效審計是合法性的審計合規性的審計他也給了一個很明確的數字說我找到多少錢一千多億的一個所以我覺得其實是如果今天換人來做會不會做得更好這是我在考慮的點所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
7730.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
7750.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我的看法是肯定的以上謝謝馬教授感人的發言接下來我們請黃匯耀 黃教授剛才我有提到幾點要救救被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
7751.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
7778.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
的幾個觀點歡迎各黨派的立委引用一個就是去年的預算有發生法定義務支出行政院不編甚至粗暴的刪減違憲違法還有追加預算違反預算法勞保破產問題待遇改革沒有提出預警的分析然後台電虧損跟能源政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
7780.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
7808.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
省纪部也没有触及问题的核心还有国防支出暴增会排挤将来很多的预算所以我提出最后一点的就是有必要要求那个省纪长将来向立法院提出第三方的鉴定意见报告但是要如何实现呢这边可能需要修改我们的省纪法还有省纪部的组织法 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
7809.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
7829.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
第一个就是要求审计部审计长他不是查核的范围只限于预算执行的决算的审核而应该涉及到预算筹编方面的一些确实包括行政院跟立法院发生决算上的争议的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
7831.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
7838.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
審計長應該提出客觀、獨立、超然的第三方意見那這個部分就有賴修正審計法跟審計部組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
7842.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
7860.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
将这个审计部还有审计长的职权提前到预算的筹编的阶段让他可以提前参与介入甚至可以提出预警性的警戒性的分析报告然后另外一个部分就是审计长我建议是 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
7861.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
7873.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
应该有连任一次的限制因为一次就六年连任的话就12年等于三届立委所以如果没有任期的限制的话干了18年24年这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
7876.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
7897.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我覺得對我們這個審計制度來講沒辦法與時俱進所以我建議立法院可以考慮將來修正審計法審計部組織法對任期給他限制然後另外一個就是預算的查核應該是提前介入到籌編的階段謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
7900.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
7917.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
謝謝黃教授發言您剛剛發言說想要問沈記長我猜啦我判斷沈記長正在看實況轉播他應該有聽到好 接下來我們再請陳靜才陳教授請發言 謝謝謝謝主席剛剛聆聽各位委員的高見 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
7920.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
7934.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
對審計工作有相當的期許,這個當然是非常好,但是審計工作畢竟還是有它的極限,它有時間的限制、人力的限制、資源的限制等等。 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
7936.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
7950.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
畢竟我們行政立法司法考試監察各有他的職權,那麼審計部去查這麼多的對象,那麼又有這樣的一個資源限制等等,如果他能在他目前審計法的規範範圍,把他的財務收支的傳統監督審計做好, |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
7955.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
7979.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
把它提升政府施政效能的洞察意見的審計做好再加上那種前瞻性的預警性的意見能做好坦白講這個在全世界來講已經是排列很前面的所以我認為說我們如果對審計人力的要求審計部審計長的要求如果能做到超然獨立 專業夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
7981.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
7998.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
然後審計人員能夠維持青年這樣的一個操守,我覺得就非常可以告慰了。所以我認為,因為我個人在公職擔任了四十幾年,對審計工作可以說有一定程度的了解。 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
7999.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8007.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那如果說審計工作呢能在這樣的一個剛剛講的這樣的情形之下來完成他的職責我覺得我們就覺得應該是可以接受的那現任審計長陳瑞銘先生那麼他以他過去六年這樣的工作成果跟他這個改革的這種意念我覺得這個人是值得我們去肯定的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8027.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8045.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
非常感謝陳教授的二度發言謝謝今天公聽會綜合答覆我非常感謝各位學者專家也要謝謝我們審查小組的委員寶貴的意見各位在本次公聽會針對本院行使沈記長的同意權案所發表的精闢見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8046.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8073.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
对于本院之后全院委员会进行的审查以及将来院会行使同意权投票的时候都会有非常大的帮助这次公听会的发言也跟各位报告一下书面资料以及发言记录均会列入本院的公报记录成为国会的正式记录我再一次感谢各位学者专家的力量也再次谢谢我们审查会的委员我们现在散会 |