| IVOD_ID |
16894 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16894 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-28T08:33:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-28T11:57:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:23:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcc9b3c92c53a7812129662ea8d647c688112bf0b47f4e58e3702f90223ddc44615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續併案審查
（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案。
【8月27日及28日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:36 - 11:57:00 |
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現在繼續開會我們首先介紹道場委員 羅志強委員接著我們介紹道場官員考試院祕書長 劉祕書長全序部政次 懷政次行政人士總處 婦人市長 張婦人市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1659.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1688.334 |
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其位即介紹列席代表請參院名單不再足以介紹並列入公報記錄本次會議議程討論事項二案分別為第一案繼續並案審查考試院函請審議公務人員考積法第十二條條文修正草案等五案及第二案委員吳宗憲等十七人凝聚政務人員行為基準法草案會議程序依例先進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1689.363 |
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1715.784 |
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提案說明及報告先由我這邊進行提案說明我現在先是說明第二案的政務人員行為基準法的提案說明我這邊提出來的專法的草案政務人員行為基準法明文規範政務人員在行政中立 |
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1717.16 |
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1739.113 |
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跟行為標準希望透過這部專法來回應民眾對於政府公平跟專業的期待因為這段時間我們發現實務上面許多政務人員在配合執政黨在搞他的罷免他並不是在一個中立的角色或者是在上班時間也在辦公室 |
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1740.074 |
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1766.549 |
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或是在上班時間用不祥的設備在網路上面發言或是在不應該的場合譬如說公務的記者會在搞他的選舉造勢等等的或是利用下鄉宣講的時候在那邊宣傳假的預算訊息然後來為罷免天才火所以這段時間我們看到的就是政務人員毫無中立可言 |
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1767.909 |
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1792.684 |
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這個法其實並不是我們這一屆雖然才提出來的一個全新的草案但是事實上在30年前的民國84年還有後來的98年101年考試院都曾經分別提出草案來討論尤其是101年的版本更是我這一部草案的版本所依據的版本 |
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1794.193 |
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1819.948 |
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這個部分我們也會以行政人員行政中立中國人員的行政中立為主軸那我們看一下年初的這段時間我們實務上面發生了很多事情例如說外交部長外交部說護照快要發布出來硬扯到是預算的預算被刪結果呢原來是他自己去年對於護照數量的評估錯誤 |
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1821.567 |
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1841.796 |
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他只印了180萬本這個預算凍結完全沒有關係那內政部長我已經提出告發了內政部長說租金補貼10月或11月會用光說是立法院三預算害的但是查證租金補貼有414.67億凍結只有40多億占不到十分之一更沒有所謂的刪除的問題 |
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1846.943 |
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1865.383 |
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我們的行政院長在大罷免期間到處去宣講到處上電視講到處公開的講說三減地方補助款不是報復是輪迴還扯說屏東兩位立委當初表決時支持中央的立委 |
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1866.304 |
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1883.901 |
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是誰支持預算就優先給講出這種話完全不像是中華民國的行政院院長像是特定政黨的護航者很多委員也大筆的酸預算我們的院長指控說大筆酸預算不支持中央 |
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1884.915 |
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1898.216 |
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那因為委員不支持中央所以院長如何支持地方像這種話都不應該說的一個院長是中華民國院長應該以全民福祉為主但是他卻以黨的政治利益為優先 |
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1899.895 |
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1923.851 |
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然後再來又說普發現金條例是預算案違憲然後拒絕編列給軍警加急的預算謊稱說申請暫時處分就可以停止法律的執行這公然在造謠行政院院長公然在造謠大搞他的政治活動他忘記自己領的是人民的薪水該為人民做事而不是配合民進黨那邊搞政治鬥爭 |
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1925.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1937.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
什麼時候申請暫時處分可以自行決定就不編列不執行我國哪一個制度有這樣全世界哪一個國家制度這樣這只會存在專制極權國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1940.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1964.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以我想行政院長是代表行政院依據憲法受立法院監督執行法律不應該自己擔任是大法官自己宣告是不是有違憲或自己宣告能不能執行行政中立是執政的ABC現在變成各自解讀我們只剩下能夠對於這些政務人員道德要求了已經沒有其他可以要求他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1965.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1981.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
但是這段時間我們看到的是民進黨的很多大官們為了政黨的利益完全不專業治國完全不理會民生需求不斷地踩紅線違反行政中立把整個國家把整個國家的人民拉進去一起政治鬥爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1983.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2012.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們更不能容許這個政府已經延宕了30年了還對於政務人員的中立完全無作為我想有法規才能發揮監督的力道我們不可能只在這邊奢求政務人員自己有道德感然後自己約束自己的行為所以我們覺得行政官要遵守行政中立不能留在口號或是道德的約束我們希望國家更往前面走 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2014.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2036.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
最後我想要提到的就是我自己在這個國家擔任公務員已經25年了我擔任過政務官我也擔任過常任文官我非常清楚公務員體系是健全國家發展的最根本然後如果政務官不中立帶著下屬那這些事務官拋下專業跟著一起政治鬥爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2037.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2061.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那這個政府治理絕對會瓦解而且這些國家的資源一定會流向特定政黨或支持特定政黨的利益團體那這些年來的綠能弊案包括昨天發生前天發生那個小英男孩的那個綠能蟑螂的問題這個問題就是鐵針針的事實還敢跟國人嗆敢跟司法人員嗆知道我背後是誰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2063.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2089.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這是荒謬 荒謬至極所以我今天今天是本會期的最後一次司法法治委員會也是我最後一次擔任召委所以我提出這個專法是我對於整個公務體系的期許不要再讓這些權責機關立法帶墮不要一旦發生了政黨輪替就血流成河整個體系人員全換掉整個國家又再空轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2090.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2113.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為行政以及公務員應該是一體的不管今天誰執政國家都要一貫的走下去而不是今天執政就大換血如果執政就大換血國家只會空轉國家沒有未來也請各位多多支持 謝謝我們接著進行機關報告每位發言時間三分鐘首先我們先請考試院祕書長 劉祕書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2121.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2139.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安感謝貴委員會長期來對本院施政跟中大法案的支持跟協助也感謝昭緯兩度排審考記法第十二條的修正今天也很榮幸在列席貴委員會就吳昭緯等十七位委員所拟據的政務人員行為基準法的草案提出書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2141.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2167.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有關這個案子在考試院的立法歷程就是它始於貴院在審議84年度的中央政府總預算時做了一個附帶決議就是要求考試院應該在一年之內將政務官法函送立法院審查此後本院在87年到101年當中有五次的把政務人員法草案送到立法院來審議但是都因為借其不續審而沒有完成立法程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2168.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2189.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
在這個之後 權序部曾經在108年把這個草案送到本院考試院來審議不過當時在審查會上 行政院這邊也提出說有關政務人員人事法治事項的主管機關究竟應該是考試院還是行政院這樣的疑義因為事涉兩院的職權分際所以本院就請權序部跟相關機關持續協調待有共識後再行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2190.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2216.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
後續雖然這個法並沒有未能持續推動但是政務人員的行為規範的事項其實已經也散見在各現行法令當中例如公務員服務法有經商投資的限制的規定也有規範公務員執行職務的時候應該要公正無私不得有損害公務員名譽或者是政府信譽的行為也不能假借權利圖利本身或他人的利益或者是加損害於他人 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2218.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2247.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
非營職務需要不得動用行政資源等所以另外在公務人員行政中立法第14條第一項也規定長官不得要求公務人員從事該法所禁止的行為另外刑法第121條也有公務人員收受賄賂罪的規範但是如果貴院委員認為有制定專法以整合相關規範的必要本院也敬表尊重以上報告敬請委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請全序部政次報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2252.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2278.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 先先大家早安首先全序部感謝大院委員在我們部裡面所送的相關人事法律能夠予以支持跟通過其實我們就今天所凝聚的政務人員行為基礎法案作二要重點報告第一個現行政務人員的行為規範相關法律規範目前政務人員的行為規範雖然沒有一個專法來規範但是分散在我們現行的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2279.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2293.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那個服務法跟公務員懲戒法相關部分都有相關的適用那另外雖然說那個政務人員本身不適用行政中立法但是依照憲法或法律規範還有要獨立行使職權的相關公務員他有需要準用行政中立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2294.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2318.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那麼其餘的政務人員包括地方民選政務首長等等雖然他是依照政治任命跟民主權利產生那也是依照政黨政策來進退跟常任公務員的性質不一樣並不是行政中立法的主要對象但是如果他是屬於公務員的長官的話仍然要符合行政中立法第十四條規定不得要求公務人員來執行行政中立法所禁止的相關行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2319.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2348.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那陳善與政務人員的行為相關事項目前法律也有相關規範而且持續行止多年那麼如果委員今天的行賄法認為有專法明確訂定的必要那部裡面定表尊重另外這個本草案有關於是不是關於利用職權圖利自己或他人的相關行為那這些部分對於地方民選行政首長到底要不要一律列入本法規範那是不是應該要加入那這請在審查的時候予以審酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2349.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2370.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第二個部分關於政務人員的法制主管機關的部分因為政務人員的活動的樣態很多我們考試院的部分基本上是屬於文官法制比較靜態的部分行政院也是限定最高行政機關也向大院負責政務人員金融人數也是以行政院跟所屬的中央機關還有地方政府是占絕大多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2371.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2391.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那因此我們會認為政務人員行為的相關動態管理是比較適合由行政院來更為適合的管理機關那五委員召委所提的相關實質內容那主要是規範跟行政中立法跟政務跟公務人員服務法的相關內容是是意思是相同那本部競表尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2391.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2412.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那其中關於第三條第五款跟第六款的部分他對於關於投資跟金三禁止是比是參照在修法前的公務員符法相關規定是更為嚴格的規範那本部尊重大院在審查時候的決定那如果討論的時候本部再來就相關的規定或必要來提供相關的意見共參 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2414.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2433.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
結語 本草案是建立公務人 政務人員的行為準則跟法制出發點本部並表尊重 那審查時如果有那個相關槌尋本部會議加以說明共參考 以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝次長 那下一位我們請張政務副人事長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2443.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2469.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
召委各位委員大家早安任總書非常感謝各位委員會能夠請我們來列席這次的會議有關於今天要審議的考機法第12條求證條文草案的部分我們在8月14號有提出書面的意見我們沒有新的意見就跟上次提的相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2471.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2499.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
至於有關於吳昭偉等委員所提的政務人員行為基準法草案就如同剛剛這個全局部次長有報告的就是現在他雖然沒有專法的規範只是散見在各個相關的這個公務員法規包括這個公務員的行政中立法包括公務員服務法 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2500.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2525.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
包括公務員選舉罷免法等等的相關這個他的行為應該遵守的規範是散見在各相關的法規那剛剛懷智仰大概有提到就是過去這段時間也一直在討論所謂的這個政務人員的法制應該由誰來負責這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2529.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2548.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那跟委員會報告現在的政務人員如果以去年底這個全序統計的資料是487個人全國大概有487個人那他的分佈大概是中央機關是220個那地方機關是267個 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2554.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2582.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
如果以這個它的這個隸屬的範圍來講的確是大部分是在行政院跟所屬的中央跟地方機關所以在這個如果大家有共識對於這個政務人員的行為要立專法這件事情我們行政院也願意來提出法案以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2588.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2591.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝請問一下其餘書面報告機關有沒有要口頭補充好 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2593.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2619.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
沒有的話就案代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答由於詢答後我們接續會進行法案的審查所以我們一例本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員為4分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2632.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2653.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
謝謝主席 在開始進行詢問以前我大概有個會議程序上面的事項可能也是詢問 可能也是建議因為剛剛聽到考試院的秘書長報告說這個法律案其實考試院那邊本來有準備早就要送來審議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2654.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2681.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
結果行政院有意見搶著行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關那如果行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關顯然行政院對這個法有非常強烈的意見有非常強烈的意見那既然行政院搶著要當主管機關攸關本法的行政機關到底應該是由考試院還是行政院我建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2683.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2703.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
接下來處理法案的時候請行政院派有代表權的人來因為行政院搶著要當主管機關嘛那你行政院就要來這邊把你的立場講清楚嘛因為行政院搶著當主管機關認為針對有關於政務人員行為基準法他們應該有發言的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2710.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2734.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
似乎看起來也沒有排斥這個法有立法的必要但是我們看到過去行政院特別是行政院的政務官從閣員到次長剛剛我聽秘書長講還有考試院的書面報告說公務員服務法裡面有一些規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2736.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2764.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
政務人員他們也有遵守譬如說其中服務法鎖定應該謹慎發言那我就看不懂啦如果這個法對政務人員有適用的話那過去這段時間我們行政院的這些閣員有謹慎發言嗎可以指責在野黨的立委說你吃台灣米做中國鬼嗎可以在臉書上面說 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2766.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2787.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
726大罷免沒有成功要繼續剿匪嗎這是哪門子謹慎發言這種問題可能要考試院回答他們也很尷尬不敢得罪當道等一下我如果上來是問這種問題只是讓考試院尷尬不敢得罪當道有辦法回答這種問題的恐怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2790.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2809.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
可能要請現在賴著不下台的卓榮瀚行政院派一個有代表權的來要不然這個法案要怎麼審光主管機關就炒不完了這個是我在針對這個法案要進行實質審查以前給召委的一個建議如果今天要進行實質逐條的審查我也支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2810.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2834.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
看等一下是不是請議事人員 等一下法案進行主條的時候 請卓榮泰趕快派一個代表來好 謝謝主席那個 跟黃委員報告 就有關這個部分就之前有思考過 那我也了解說 考試院希望這個行政院出來 希望當作這個主管機關 但是我自己思考過幾個問題啊我還是相信我國有權力分立啦 雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2835.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2864.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
雖然現在事務上似乎看起來我國權力分立這是一個幌子完全違反孟德斯鳩的概念當行政權跟立法權以及那個考試權行政權跟立法權以及司法權結合的時候他帶來就是專制這孟德斯鳩講的那專制的原理是什麼就是恐怖其實台灣就是走向這樣但是我還是相信可能我們還是有權力分立那依照現在的制度上面我們公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2865.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2886.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
不是我再回答問題王委員我再回答我剛有說我跟黃委員報告他剛剛我跟你講你還沒進來之前他已經說他是會議詢問所以我現在再跟他回答王委員請不要干擾議事謝謝我也很尊重你的我很尊重王委員的王委員我很尊重你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2887.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2906.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我再回答他問題 我回答他問題要經過你同意嗎王委員 請問一下我回答其他委員的問題 需要王委員你這位大人同意嗎我跟你講 如果你不你要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2908.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2936.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我跟你講 王委員 王委員如果你要這樣子要要求我們開會每個人時間到時候都停請你問問你們的陳培宇 你們吳思瑤我是不是都讓大家把他講完我是不是都讓大家盡量講完王一川你幹了沒有 尊重主席王一川請你尊重主席王委員 如果你不懂議事規則請回去把議事規則搞清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2940.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2956.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
王逸川 你去約束你們民進黨的人也要預時好不好你要不要去看看你們貴黨的陳培委員 吳孝偉我有沒有干擾他們我都讓他們把話講完你去當你的 你去當民進黨的召委你來主持會議啦你下個會請就當召委嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2965.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2974.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我跟你講啦在這邊跟你吵架是拉低我們自己的格調不用在國會吵架給全國人民看這是拉低我們的格調但是我跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2976.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3005.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
黃委員今天黃委員在議事詢問的話我就會回答他的問題如果你等一下有問題要問我請你到台上來你到台上來之後我也會回答你的問題其他我跟你講不用多說了你在講什麼我覺得今天會議是我主持如果你對議事的主持這麼有興趣麻煩你下一任當召委你來制止我們講話我OK我沒有意見嘛那今天在這邊麻煩各委員會有各委員會的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3006.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3021.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
你去看從這一屆第十一屆第一個會期到現在我主持了三個會期我是不是都盡量讓大家講完雖然我們講八分鐘這個是訓示規定每個委員會有不同的文化有的文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3022.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3045.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
8分鐘一到立刻關掉麥克風但是本委員會包括莊瑞雄委員在主持他都是盡量讓大家講完除非時間真的太長了我們才會制止你可以過去看過去的VOD是不是都是這樣我不會騙你這個部分我不會說面對黃國昌讓他講個高興面對陳佩瑜就不讓他講你可以去看看過去我主持會議是不是都是公平這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3047.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3065.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
如果等一下你對於會議有什麼問題歡迎你到前面來我們來問基本上王委員我對你是很尊重一直以來我對你都很尊重我們不要在這邊吵架給全國人民看我覺得這真的不好這真的降低我們國會議員彼此的格調好不好不好意思 王委員就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3067.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3079.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我要回答你的問題你剛說要請行政院來那為什麼我今天這個沒有請行政院來雖然說行政院有說他要當主管機關因為過往我們看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3080.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3099.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
不管是公務員服務法或者是一些懲戒事項或公務員的中立法等等的他的主管機關是考試院不是行政院所以我才會認為說這個體力上面的一貫應該還是由考試院來所以這就是為什麼我今天沒有請行政院來的主要原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3100.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3124.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那如果當然我們在法條在那個審查的時候如果行政院要求他們要擔任主管機關的話那當然未來的審查我們可能會請行政院過來那第二個是如果今天由行政院他自己來去做那個主管機關的話我會擔心有球員兼裁判所以我剛才會提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3125.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3148.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我還是相信權力分立這句話所以各位不要直接說我在發表自己的意見我現在從頭到尾在回答黃國昌委員的問題為什麼今天沒有叫行政院來行政院明明說要當主管機關我在這邊給各位的報告是我還是相信台灣有權力分立那因為權力分立之下考試院跟行政院是一樣大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3149.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3177.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
並沒有考試院低於行政院所以主管機關有考試院我今天才會請考試院來我想我這個是做憲政制度上面的說明絕對不是說在這邊跟大家吵架所以如果說你們覺得我對於我國憲政制度或對於五權分立我有誤解的話歡迎來打臉我我一直對於法律的論述都這樣那我也很尊重不同意見的人以上是我對黃國昌委員的回答我不知道有沒有回答到你的問題沒關係 尊重召委的安排不過我覺得行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3178.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3201.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
到底搶著當主管機關是真的有要立法還是在阻礙立法沒有關係我們在審法案的時候繼續看下去要找哪一位現在是不是有請我們考試院那個麻煩考試院秘書長你要不要休息一下因為我有點擔心還是你先休息請你們那個次次長上來就好了麻煩懷次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3207.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3235.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
委員長市長好上一次我質詢你的時候我有問因為有警消跟我投訴他們一直有得到消息本院三讀通過的法律針對提銷警銷的所得替代率相關的部門能拖就拖 能混就混擺明就是沒有要發我上次為什麼在質詢的時候我會特別問這個問題警察人員人事條例修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3236.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3265.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們已經三讀通過 總統已經公佈了結果在整個作業的時間當中我不斷的關心到底什麼時候會處理上一次你給我回答是12月以前你們會依法執行因為現在很多事情在忙什麼電腦系統在調整但我現在已經有一點看不太清楚了現在行政院是連預算都沒有編如果連預算都沒有編的話你12月底以前要怎麼依法執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3266.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3293.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
你當初是知道會發生這樣的事情裝不知道在騙我嗎還是你根本就不知道因為我不會知道因為預算編列依照憲法的規定沒關係我們一條一條來你上次回給我的書面說明說你們相關的執行作業本部內政部及有關機關已經在4月29號5月16號28號6月25號及30號召開五次延伤會議就警察人員人事條例第35條規定確定立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3297.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3320.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
制式用原則那確立法制式用原則這五次開會的法制式用原則有說不發嗎從來沒有說不發內政部有沒有說不發那其他的有關機關有哪些機關海巡署警察大學消防署所以大家都說要發 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3321.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3349.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們在會上就是討論我們怎麼樣去做這件事情是啊對啊但現在問題來了根本沒有編預算要怎麼發這個就是我的問題啊這就是我的問題啊這個法律生效通過了以後我們依法論法我不跟你談政治啊我依法論法退休的景蕭依照這個法律三讀生效通過了以後對於國家是不是產生公法上的金錢請求權是還是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3351.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3375.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
是嘛 這個國家的公法上金錢請求權會因為我們的政府有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎 會不會我跟委員報告 就是說有沒有編預算對不起啊 請你針對預算 請你針對我的問題回答 時間有限啊但是那個預算 我的理解 我說就我有限的理解預算支出也要有它經過預算程序通過的名目跟相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3376.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3404.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
是啊 名目不就警察人員人事條例你剛剛也講了啊這是法律義務支出啊這退休警消對國家的公法上金錢請求權啊我剛剛問你的問題請你不要迴避喔不好意思喔請你針對我的問題回答我説明一下那條上面還有講到因此而外增加的要由政府編列預算支應啊那當然嘛法制作業上本來就如此啊但我現在問你的是公務人員對於國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3407.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3418.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
公法上的金錢請求權這個請求權會因為國家有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎這是基本的法律問題耶大二上過行政法的都知道耶不敢回答喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3420.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3437.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
蛤 現在連考試院啊都看著上億在辦事喔我跟委員報告我們部裡面立場就是把我們該做的該審查的這邊就如同沒有關係啊你們現在電腦作業什麼時候會做完我們應該在10月左右應該他就因為我們現在已經是 什麼時候會做完 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3439.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3467.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
做完了以後要不要按照你們部裡面的我先講你們部裡面的就好了你們部裡面做完以後要不要針對重新核定的退休金寄發通知給所有的景銷要還是不要什麼時候會發這個我們大概就誠如在22號答覆您的我們會在12月底以前把它完成在上次我也是這樣跟您12月底以前記得該給人家的通知要通知喔可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3468.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3486.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
不會因為說現在沒有編預算賴清德跟卓榮泰說不給就不發通知喔這通知很重要啊因為這些退休的景銷到時候拿到通知了以後我才知道嘛接下來我如果要透過行政訴訟的方式要求國家履行這個公法上的金錢請求權 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3487.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3509.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我才知道計算的金額是多少數字聲明要怎麼寫嘛所以站在考試院的立場不應該被政治上面所左右依法你們要核發給人家的通知依照警察人員人事條例重新核定的退休金應該要多少錢這個通知就會發出去對不對對 我們部裡面要做的事情什麼時候可以發完 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3510.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3526.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我們就跟您報告嘛 12月底好 12月底先把它發完 下一個問題國發基金不當投資啊我上次一直在追啊 這個莫名其妙怎麼會有這麼離譜的事一個決定拿納稅人的錢去投資的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3527.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3554.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
結果我做了會議主席 投資完了以後自己跑去那家被投資的公司當董事我的老天啊 這明顯違反旋轉門條款我開始追這件事情的時候結果國發會給我回文 他說依照旋序部回覆並重申該部85年函釋有關旋轉門條款規定所稱職務直接相關什麼職務直接相關 避免權力濫用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3556.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3580.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
跟你職務直接相關的我現在代表國發基金 我是執行秘書我還擔任這個審查委員會的主席我決定要投資這家公司結果我跑去這家公司當董事這當然是跟職務直接相關啊這當然是跟職務直接相關啊你甚至不用念法律系啊甚至不要念一般行政啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3582.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3603.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
你隨便問一個有公民素養的高中生就知道這絕對職務直接相關啊結果呢 國發會說我們有發函給玄敘部玄敘部給我們的回覆說呢必須要各該營利事業的目的事業主管機關或者是離職前呢 具有營建或採購業務相關關係現在問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3607.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3622.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
公務人員服務法職務直接相關什麼時候給選區部這樣的權限 透過你們的函式把範圍限縮掉 拖曳法律規範之本質你要不要說明一下現在是什麼 官官相護嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3623.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3648.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我跟委員報告這個服務法選選條款當時就服務法第13條那因為當初第13條通過的文字在考試院院會是當時有對這個部分未來在執行應該如何執行他有做過一個更精準的一個具體怎麼樣去做處理那民國85年這個函式就是根據當時權敘部報告考試院的一個說明資料上面做了這個但是因為違反服務法基本上它有兩個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3649.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3677.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
對不起先不用講效果啦我們先回到法條構成文字啦職務直接相關為什麼選區部把他限縮到這種程度這是我現在的問題因為在85年通過這個法律的時候大家認為說到底這個條文應該怎麼去執行不是啊那我就直接問你嘛今天我是國發基金的執行秘書這個投資會議我當主席通過了以後我跑去被投資的公司當董事這個是不是職務直接相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3678.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3692.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我跟委員報告因為它是我職務相關會產生後面法律效果是這是由法院來決定因為後面會有將近兩年不是啊 根本不會啦按照啦你們現在做的方式不會由法院做決定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3693.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3714.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
為什麼不會有法院做決定國發會就擋在前面啦用選序部的函式當靠山啊說依照選序部的函式這個沒有違反旋轉門條款啊接下來就不會發動下一步的法律程序啦來我直接給你看例子啦這有沒有違反旋轉門條款台中市公務局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3716.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3742.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
結果離職以後三年內跑去一家營造廠當總經理這有沒有違反懸殊短門條款按照 你就本於你們考試院剛剛的韓氏回答我這個問題就好了有還是沒有因為我記得我們幫鼠年那個韓氏還有包括有採購關係營建關係都是所以這個案子要看他沒有採購關係也沒有營造關係這個要看這個當年他跟他之間是不是有這個沒有 我現在就跟你講沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3743.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3770.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這樣子有沒有違反旋轉門條款你們的函式沒有違反旋轉門條款為什麼因為所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部我只要不要任職經濟部就好了所有公司的主管機關都經濟部公司法規定得很清楚那代表什麼 按照你們這個函式只要不是任職經濟部或者是地方目的事業主管機關經濟局的通通不會違反旋轉門條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3772.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3797.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我跟他不要有採購 不要有營造的關係但我可以跟他有什麼我可以跟他有 我事後去他公司當總經理 當董事長通通都不會違反旋轉門條款啦我為什麼提這個案子 往下看當初那個人在法院接受審判的時候他就說 依照考試院的函式我不是在目的事業主管機關耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3799.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3818.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我是在公務局 我不是在經濟局而且第二個 這家公司跟我任職的台中市政府也沒有採購關係 也沒有營造關係所以沒有違反公務員服務法100% 100%就是用你們考試院的含釋來當擋箭牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3822.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3844.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
百分之一百就是你們用你們考試院的函式來當擋箭牌啊結果當擋箭牌最後的結果是什麼這字啊我一個字都沒改當初他在法院的時候就是用這個當擋箭牌最後的結果被法官打槍啊有罪確定被法官打槍有罪確定啊胡說八道啊把大家當笨蛋啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3846.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3858.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這不是跟植物直接相關什麼是跟植物直接相關但這個是法院要認定是嘛 現在就出現問題啦為什麼考試院做了函試就法律應該有的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3859.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3878.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
什麼叫韓式法律應該有什麼解釋做正確的解釋你們的解釋被法院打臉了85年恐龍時代的韓式到2025年繼續用而且用來包庇什麼用來包庇綠油油這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3880.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3898.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
法院的判決都打臉你們的韓市啦這個韓市要不要回去重新檢討這個韓市現在被拿來幹嘛被拿來在國發基金裡面胡搞瞎搞的人當擋箭牌國發基金投資的對象投資的每一家公司目的事業主管機關全部都經濟部啊絕對都不是國發會哇 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3903.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3918.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
真的是見內心喜 喜出望外我國發會愛怎麼搞怎麼搞因為這些公司的目的事業主管機關都是經濟部 不是我國發會所以按照我們考試院的函式這個都不是跟職務直接相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3920.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3946.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
你們考試院要不要回去重新檢討一下很丟臉欸很丟臉欸85年的韓式被法院打臉了到2025年不改繼續被拿來包庇這些胡搞瞎搞的官員當作黨箭牌考試院很閒嗎還是考試院太忙了這麼重要的韓式欸被法院判決打臉欸現在繼續被拿來當黨箭牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3950.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3975.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
考試院針對這個函試要不要回去重新檢討我跟委員報告喔所有每個違反服務法的被法院判決都是有很法院都有很細的調查是中間都有一些證據或什麼來沒有關係啊事實我們沒有爭執啊現在我在跟你講的是法律解釋的問題請你不要請你不要把法律解釋的問題要把它拉到事實認定的問題這個事實很清楚了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3976.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3998.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這個事實非常清楚 事實認定一點問題都沒有唯有的問題是什麼 法律解釋而這個莫名其妙的法律解釋啊是哪裡來的就從考試院來的啊就從考試院來的啊我有說錯嗎這我沒有尊重法院判決啊當然要尊重法院判決所以我才叫你回去改函式啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4000.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4021.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個韓式被法院打臉了你又說要尊重法院判決 又在那邊繼續凹這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討 要還是不要要不要回去重新檢討 要還是不要我們可以再重新檢討一下 看一下這個個案到底是怎麼樣沒有關係啊 趙偉站起來了 回去重新檢討你不用去看個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4022.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4048.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
你不用去看個案 你直接看你自己啊在法院的判決裡面被打臉的法律見解就好啊丟人現眼啦 丟人現眼啦85年的韓式耶 到2025年拿來變成在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人的黨建牌莫名其妙我對考試院本來還有一點尊重喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4049.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4074.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
如果今天考試院要幫這種在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人築起防火牆我直接跟你們講這件事情絕對沒完沒了這件事情絕對沒完沒了國發基金是納稅人的錢欸不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸國發基金是納稅人的錢不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸可以這樣搞喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4077.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4082.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
檢討要多少時間 一個月夠不夠檢討韓式就好了啦好沒關係來請秘書長檢討要多少時間 一個月夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4094.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4113.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員讓我們回去研究一下我想85年的韓式是不是沒有關係你們需要多少時間會後書面回覆給我我不是要你回覆答案啊回覆給我說我們研究這個韓式需要多少時間接下班以前回覆給我可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們下一位請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4123.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4144.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有請全序部懷次長慢慢懷次長好 因為那個艱辛胸好我想說還是先讓次長好了好 我先走我先走次長我剛聽你講話 拳頭都硬起來了我本來真的對考試院很尊敬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4146.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4166.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
請問考試院是不是今天權虛部是不是警消我們的公交人員最大的靠山 是不是是不是 你告訴我我們是依法行政 一定會照規定來處理是不是嘛 你連你要當警消軍人公交人員的靠山這句話都講不出口我為什麼今天很生氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4169.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4191.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
站在這個地方 我跟吳宗憲委員 汪小林委員 跟黃國昌委員我們一路挺警消 挺軍人 我們挺了一整年終於通過警消的人事條例 提高退休保障我們提高了軍人的待遇 羅志祥挺警消 挺軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4193.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4211.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
結果 民進黨 卓鴻泰 賴清德 柴錦霄 柴軍人竟然不編預算 你在這邊還護航你考試院不講話 我沒有意見啦 我知道你為難啦為什麼今天很火大 是因為你考試院竟然在這邊護航你還當什麼次長啊我告訴你啦 你不用講話 我跟你講 先聽我講完再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4222.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4250.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你就是好好守住你的本分今天 今天公祭 明天旺祭那民進黨就這樣啊有錦霄今天為了捍衛國人生命產產安全犧牲生命的時候哇 賴清德 卓榮泰哀悼啊 哀傷啊公祭哀悼 哀傷啊隔天啊隔天就踩你 砍你預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4252.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4279.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
請問到底景蕭得罪賴清德什麼啊需要這樣對待景蕭嗎你不要怪我生氣我跟你講為自己私我沒那麼生氣今天我生氣的是賴清德跟卓榮泰踩景蕭踩軍人我告訴你啊那是賴清德自己政治要負責啦我也在這邊呼籲所有的景蕭跟我們的軍人的跑者們 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4281.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4297.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
你看看今天一路上羅志強國民黨我們是怎麼挺警校挺軍人的我們浴血奮戰了一整年終於爭取到待遇的提高合理的提高賴清德跟你講說抱歉啊你們不值得啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4299.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4321.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
坐在底下的王毅川有辦法去抗議我們的主席啊但是他跟所有民進黨的立委一路投反對票到底陪著賴清德一起踩警箱踩軍人也有你王毅川一份啦所以我要跟你講我在底下為什麼那麼生氣我聽到我受不了啦我現在想問你第二個問題我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4325.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4353.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
你總知道我們中華民國有哪五個民選總統吧知道啊 告訴大家李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統然後那個賴清德總統我請問這五位總統哪一位總統最優秀在他的任內上任第一年發動全國性大罷免來清算追殺殲滅在野黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4357.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4382.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這跟我們部裡面業務沒關係 後面就有關係了我現在講的後面就有關係了就是愛心德來為了慣行 貫徹他的大罷免所有行政不中立的各種所謂的鬼故事全部出樓我再告訴你請問今天有哪一個行政團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4384.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4406.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
為了罷免這歷任總統的行政院 為了罷免下鄉宣講直接痛批在野黨說這次叫輪迴說今天在野黨殺野跟著霸團一起在搞罷免哪一位偉大的行政院院長做到了這個舉世無雙的成就 你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4407.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4436.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
跟你的業務無關啊跟你業務有關啊這行政不中立就是著龍泰還無關啊你還跟我講無關耶就是著龍泰那我要跟你講今天 懷次長我對你很失望很失望你身為今天權敘部的官員你腦袋當中就兩件事做到你就100分 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4438.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4460.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
第一個站在我們的警校跟公教我們的公務人員的身旁當他們的後盾我沒有要你講出忤逆我們今上賴清德的話但你起碼要有些微的部長次長的風骨道德勇氣去捍衛警校捍衛軍人我今天沒有看到這個風骨 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4462.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4491.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那第二個你要謹守今天對行政中立的永遠的堅正的支持今天我也沒看到那我要告訴你你今天最該學習的官員是誰你知道是誰嗎我告訴你你最該學習的官員叫邱太元我今天對邱太元是非常肯定為什麼我講一件事情整個民進黨部會都在造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4495.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4511.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
當時劉世芳帶頭造謠在野黨刪租屋津貼我們中線召委中線主席已經怒到去告了有這件事嗎請問你不知道啦對不對來來來內政部的代表上來時間暫停內政部代表上來來在野黨有刪租屋津貼嗎有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4524.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4549.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
有沒有報告委員因為這個跟受派來進入貴人會我告訴你部長都已經承認說錯話了但是沒有用啦造謠的那個威力全部下去了造謠威力全部下去了就是這種造謠官員來 次長行政中立嗎造謠是行政中立嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4552.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4581.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
行政中立法上面對這個部分喔有啦 大法官都告訴你這也答不出來 憲法常識大法官跟你講說謊 官員說謊天經地義啊官員說謊不用負責啊你全序不次長都不知道大法官的憲法判決大法官跟你講官員說謊沒事嘛當然就說謊啊我拉回來我拉回來 我問你啊你知道為什麼我推崇邱太元嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4583.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4612.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
因為當時我在被罷免的時候突然一堆罷團說在發文宣在網路上羅志強三長照預算這種不尊重長輩的人罷免他還罵我爸媽還在網路上罵我攻擊我父母親我怒到不行我來質詢邱太元的時候我問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4614.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4634.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我說請問啊 邱部長衛福部的預算 今年比去年多多少部長跟我講 多306億喔 他數字超級清楚的那我就問他說 長照預算我們有3嗎部長直接跟你講 跟我講 沒有3比去年更多學學邱太元啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4641.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4668.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
最行政中立的官員就下台了他不要學啦真的也對也不能學學完就下台了只有他沒有造謠甚至直面出來駁斥謠言這就是官員的風骨啊條條狀狀都跟行政中立有關啊我再問你啊來 中選會上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4670.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4699.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
中選會麻煩一下 謝謝中選會這個單位有多少年歷史應該有二十幾年你不知道 其實我也不是很確定那多少任主委主委 歷任主委 抱歉你也不知道 沒關係那有一樣你一定知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4700.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4725.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
中選會這漫長的歷史跟這麼多的主委當中哪一個主委跟你講說在選舉罷免期間喊告急搶救是違反選罷法的哪一位主委說的我告訴你 你做中選會的不管你是哪個部門的人員我知道不為難你就是李靖勇講的請問你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4729.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4749.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
選舉罷免期間只要不是投票日當天喊告急喊搶救請問違反什麼選罷法這部分我是方便請我們就是相關業務單位的代表我告訴你沒有啦就這麼簡單啦來 我再請教一下來 勞動部勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4760.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4772.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
哪一位偉大的部長上班時間發文挺罷免你也不知道不方便回答你是不方便回答不是不知道你當然知道不為難你就是洪森漢好中立的行政我就要跟回頭問我們的次長問我們次長我要告訴你今天為什麼要立法修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4791.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4818.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為就是太扯太離譜啦最後還是一句話我希望你牢牢記在心上你的這一條命是誰在保障你知道嗎我們在座所有人的命誰在保障你知道嗎誰在保障你告訴我全國人民一起啊誰在守在治安的前線火災的前線保護可能我們的生命安全誰是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4820.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4829.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
就警察跟消防啊答對了誰看守我們的國家 國土 防衛阻止外敵侵犯 保家衛民是誰跟我們國軍國軍啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4832.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4846.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你想清楚我們的命就是錦囂跟國軍在保的你在想清楚你要不要再幫今天採錦囂採軍人的總統背書啦想清楚啦 謝謝你我剛剛已經跟委員報告過我們在執行這個35條我們是繼續在執行該做的我們都會做 來來來沒關係行政院不編預算你給我一個回答不編預算請問怎麼做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4861.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4882.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
你看嘛 你還要解釋多給你十秒鐘 只讓你自己打臉自己而已啊你剛剛在黃國昌的回答就讓我底下做的拳頭都硬了因為我真的沒有想到你要這樣回答啦你可以今天甚至啊 你就說抱歉我不敢回答 我都原諒你剛剛後面都不敢回答我有為難他們嗎我沒有啊 起碼他們沒護航啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4884.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4902.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
你今天站在這個地方你作為今天公務人員最重要靠山給你時間回應你還是就自我打臉啊救救你啦 可以了啦 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們先請翁曉林委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4916.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4937.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
接下來有請吳宗憲委員質詢我們麻煩全區部次長還有婦人次長先上台那待會也會請教秘書長 秘書長先等一下各位早安 辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4939.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4953.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我想先請教次長那個次長 懷市長懷市長你是基層公務員出身的嗎是的 從維登公務員開始做起好 因為我有聽您講過我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4955.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4975.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那你也有當過常任文官也有當任過政務官對不對是好 那我請問一下就是依照我們現在的公務員服務法政務人員他到底需不需要依法行政要我想說這個依法行政是公務員的基本要求所以才會寫在公務員服務法的第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4976.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4999.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那我請問一下這個依法行政的這個法是不是指的是立法院通過總統公佈的這個法律公務員就有遵守的義務是 就他執行業務的時候他譬如說假設有些作用法規或他自己內部在法體系裡面內部的這些行政規則行政命令等等他就如果有明文規定這個他就應該要照規定來執行好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5002.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5028.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
監察院有派人來嗎我請問一下但是我不知道這個部分跟你的業務有沒有關係我想請問一下監察院就是政務官一樣受公務員懲戒法的規範對不對那政務人員如果他不依法行政那發生公務員懲戒法第二條的情勢的時候是不是要照樣要送懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5029.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5054.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
是好我再請問一下依據公務員懲戒法24條如果是院長部長發現公務員有第二條所定的刑事的時候這時候應由他的機關具備文件序名是有然後連同證據送到監察院審查但是如果今天犯錯的是院長或部長的話那要誰送 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5060.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5088.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個部分如果在本院的話我們有那個紀律我們有自律委員會所以這個要自律委員會去審查我知道就那個監察委員是紀律委員會沒有錯那我現在請教就是說因為審刑法24條他是說院長部長發現所屬公務員有這些問題的時候那要送那我想請教一下如果今天違法的是院長或部長的話那應該是誰送他自己送自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5092.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5109.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好 沒關係 那這可能這個是不是沒辦法回答這個可能要請懲戒法的那個主管進來好 那今天沒有辦法回答這樣我了解了好 那今天我們現在發現了一個問題就是說我們本來認為說依法行政這是國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5110.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5122.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
尤其行政機關最該有的基本但是我們今天看到從剛剛的幾位委員的質詢我們發現一件事情三讀通過的法律在我國行政院可以帶頭不執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5123.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5140.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我再講一次三讀通過的法律而且還沒有被大法官宣告違憲或視為暫時處分要求這個東西不可以做之前行政院可以違憲違法的不執行那請問一下監察院有沒有看到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5144.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5162.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個部分可能還是要從那個確實的去認定那這樣還是等於沒有回答那其實我剛一開始我就有講到說其實權力分立的概念現在現代化國家都有權力分立的概念不管是三權分立還是五權分立他就是怕國家走向專制跟集權 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5163.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5192.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以他不希望由行政權把司法權或行政權把立法權都包括在裡面了這三權分立國家所有三權分立國家都這個概念但我們今天看到的是行政權好像直接把所有的權都包括在裡面了那今天行政權照理說他不能夠不執行立法院三讀通過的法案他是沒有權力選擇我愛做不做他只有義務去遵守已經通過的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5192.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5217.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
但是呢今天行政院院長跟我國的總統直接出來告訴大家三讀通過的法律我也懶得管我等釋憲結果出來我再決定要不要做這不是就一個違法最基本違法的ABC就出來了嗎我想全國的法律學者不會有人認同總統跟行政院院長這句話那請問監察院哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5218.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5238.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
如果監察權覺得自己還是個監察院貴院總是來這邊跟我們說監察院有存在的必要但是當事情發生的時候卻監察院永遠看不到人這是我對於監察院一直以來無法理解的部分我再跟各位報告任何一個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5238.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5263.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
任何一個法律當你被大法官宣告違憲之前它就是一個有效的法律在你被大法官要求你暫停使用之前你就必須要執行並沒有我提出申請或我提出釋憲我就可以不做行政院從來沒有這種權利各國也沒有這樣的制度這個制度會出現在哪裡就是專制國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5264.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5274.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
總統或行政院長一個人說了算的國家才會這樣所以今天行政院長以及我國總統完美詮釋了我們是一個專制國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5275.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5302.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以才會有法律三讀通過之後行政權可以說我就不執行啊然後還有更荒謬的也是從官員口中講出來的說如果我這些錦銷的錢我編下去以後如果改天大法官宣告違憲那我怎麼辦我怎麼追回來我不是違憲的這更胡說八道任何一個法律在被宣告違憲的那一天之前的任何作為都叫做合法行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5303.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5327.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
而是被宣告違憲那一天開始這條法律不能用這是所有法律人法律學者都知道的ABC結果今天在我國竟然被行政官員出來說我發了啊大法官如果說我違憲怎麼辦沒有怎麼辦你就必須就是要依法行政我想我今天講這個東西完全是最基本大一法律學生都懂的東西但在我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5329.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5345.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
總統 行政院院長可以出來帶頭騙全體國人這就是為什麼我一直覺得監察行政院的作為我們立法院本來應該要予以監督但是我們今天看到是立法委員爭相的護航 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5346.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5370.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那這個叫做民主國家嗎不是吧 這個叫做專制國家民進黨在野的時候也是扮演好他監督的責任所以民進黨在野的時候他對於國民黨執政時候的多加批判那就是盡了他的所有的職務我們都非常的敬佩民進黨在野時候的作為但當民進黨執政的時候卻不允許在野黨去對他加以監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5372.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5392.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
越走越回去了把台灣走回專制的時代這我沒有辦法接受所以我在這邊跟各位說不管剛羅志強委員講或是剛黃國昌委員他們所提到的警消人員加薪的部分我再說一次三讀通過的法律在被大法官宣告違憲之前它就是一個有效的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5394.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5412.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
不管行政院有沒有提出釋憲有沒有提出暫時處分的申請只要法官還沒有下裁定或判決之前你就必須要履行那在這個地方的履行跟執行是什麼就是編列預算在這個地方就是編列預算第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5413.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5435.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
絕對不存在這些官員所說的如果我發了改天大法官宣告違憲之後那這些錢怎麼辦也沒有那種事因為我國的制度以及全世界的制度都一樣只要他被宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法作為不存在要不要追回的問題要不要把錢追回的問題也不存在之前發的錢是違憲的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5437.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5462.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以我國有非常多的法律曾經被宣告違憲但是它在違憲之前的法官所有依法的判決都不會發生冤獄賠償等等的事由存在這個是法律ABC請這些政客們 請這些行政院的高官們不要出來騙全體國人不要總是把法律ABC我跟你講這國家唸法律的人很多啦然後各大學法律通識課程也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5463.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5487.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
如果你們以為騙國人騙一騙國人就會被騙你這次就不會罷免搞得這麼難看你就不會我今天早上看到今天早上的那個民調總統的滿意度還有集團院長滿意度已經低到我覺得不可思議的程度了國人沒有那麼好騙我覺得該做的是我們必須依法的行政我在講剛剛我提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5489.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5504.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
刚刚我提到那个刚刚一开始我发现说我提到孟德施救其实孟德施救还有一句话很重要他说真正的自由是法律底下的自由也就是我们人在争取自由的时候我们只能争取法律之下的自由而不是超越法律的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5505.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5534.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這西方三權分立之父孟德斯有所說的話這在我國也是適用啊怎麼會現在從行政院長總統帶頭在那邊造謠騙人 說謊 毀憲亂政我每一個都可以講出條文以及依據但是這些政客們這些高官們永遠講不出依據只在那邊胡說八道我想憲判9號如果你們去看一下內容也是打臉了這一次的卓院長他其實有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5536.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5562.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
行政院在立法院 憲法上所應負的政治責任其實最終是對民意負責 憲判久有講到最近台大那個教授原決案也有提到 就是說卓榮泰如果不下台 其實他首先被打臉的是憲法法庭我覺得我這只是引述他們的話 我想要跟各位報告我覺得這段時間國家整個荒謬 還有整個國家行政機關為了搞他那個所謂的大罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5564.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5592.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
部會首長 院長 總統出來不停地造謠講那什麼團結思想裡面錯誤擺出的造謠不要說我亂講每一個東西我都可以把它點出來這是我的個性我也都把它點出來它依據是什麼為什麼是說謊我一個一個都點出來所以我還是覺得各位監察院這邊請注意一下請監察院注意既然我們的行政院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5594.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5596.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
他都带头在那边违法 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5597.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5624.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那是不是你應該要思考一下監察院要不要有所動作我不是要你們一定要半導一定要懲戒行政院長而是你們總是要進行調查也許調查之後發現國人是對院長誤會了那你們還他一個清白也是好事我也樂見但是應該還是要有所動作就我講的行政院依法行政是你的義務不是你的權利當今天立法院三讀通過的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5625.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5651.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
既然行政院可以說我要事先終我申請暫時處分所以我不用執行我國以及全世界都沒有這樣的制度如果有請拿出來打臉我我最喜歡講這句話我如果有這樣的制度請拿出來打臉我否則請依法行政如果連這樣子都不懂的話我們怎麼會是法治國怎麼會是一個法律底下的自由好 那個再麻煩監察院這邊好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5666.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5669.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好 下一位我們請王逸川委員發言好 我們請行政院人事總署副人事長還有請監察院的代表 謝謝好 麻煩監察院代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5701.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5712.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
好 我先請教副人事長委員好這裡面認為的政務人員應該包括哪一些如果從字面上的定義看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5714.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5741.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
最大多數就是政治任命的 像部會首長還有地方政府的一級機關首長 一級主管這些就是政務人員 那還有有些是憲法跟法律規定他獨立行使職權 有任體制的好 那你認為縣市長是不是政府人員縣市長是民選人員 民選的行政首長那縣市長要不要被規範要有行為基準法 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5743.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5753.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個就是我們過去一直在討論然後就是大家意見會比較分歧這個討論多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5755.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5780.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
討論的時間就剛剛其實幾位首長有報告過那個委員也大概有講這個從民國八十幾年一直從考試院跟行政院總共送了五次的相關的法案進來那都長不一樣嗎對這一個人員的定義都長不一樣定義就是每次討論的時候哪些要納進來 哪些不納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5784.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5810.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
包括還有一些像兼任的可是他的職務看起來是不是是不是也像這個一般的這個行政的政務官有類似的職長可是他的相關的權益譬如說他可能是無給職等等的無給職兼任然後是這個委員會的委員所以這個是的確這個範圍的定義上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5813.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5838.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
會有不同的意見會有不同意見所以這一塊在這幾年的討論也沒有大家沒有共識那最主要是出在哪裡出在有些人不想要被納進來還是怎麼樣因為這個各有各的觀點各有各的觀點就是覺得權力義務總是對等我們到底是管理的強度跟他這個他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5840.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5842.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那你們認為國營事業的董事長要不要被規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5861.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5889.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
國營事業的董事長他現在中立法是他是准用的範圍他本來就有被規範那我是說如果現在要立這個法的話立這個法我們會認為他不是政務人員所以國營事業相關的就不會被規範在裡頭對 因為他是公務員任用法分支出來的是某一種類型的好 OK那我先請問這個監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5891.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5916.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們現在在做公職人員財產申報除了這一個一般的文官就是事務官在一定的職等以上就要申報那有些像有些縣市政府的官員有些被抽籤抽中了也要申報我記得是這樣那請問這申報的這些人當時監察院現在執行這個的時候他要財產申報當時為什麼這些人要申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5923.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5948.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
報告委員公職人員財產申報處的目的就是希望透過財產申報的制度讓所有的公職人員的財產都能夠暴露在陽光之下陽光是一個最好的防腐劑然後可以檢視所有包括政務人員還有公務人員他們的財產的狀況對好那這一個財產申報過程中有沒有出現政務人員這四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5953.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5975.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
報告委員 裡面也有出現政務人員的相關規定拿來 副人事長可不可以按照公職院財政申報法裡頭寫的政務人員就這樣定義不然我們就會出現兩個法的政務人員的定義不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5978.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5997.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個部分你要再慎重的考慮啦譬如說我們討論的過程像大法官最高行政院法院院長他們其實本身的中立甚至比一般的政務官員要受到更嚴格的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5997.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6015.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以各種類型它的強度都會有不同這個大家也有不一樣的意見就是說這塊到底要不要納進來其實就是在範圍的界定上需要譬如說像我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6016.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6044.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
剛剛有報告說地方的這個不管是民選首長其實他不是政務官那他一般的認知上不會說他叫這個給他政治任命但是他的相關的權限跟影響其實又跟政務首長有非常類似的地方那現在框最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6045.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6073.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
要把他的管理管到那個強度到底能不能比較適切的去符合他的比例的原則所以這個是大家就是在討論但是目前就是還沒有正式的這個大家比較確定的那如果是這樣子的話那如果用監察院的這個財產申報裡頭的政務人員你覺得哪一些應該要排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6075.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6089.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們覺得我們自己的意見我們是認為大法官跟最高法院行政法院這些因為他有比較嚴格的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6090.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6118.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那我們自己本身總署的意見會是認為這些可能排除上我們會認為適當那除了這些排除還有沒有其他各個領域的人是不是贊同我們的看法這個我們就沒有完全的把握因為也有人阻擋把它放進去所以你們要去了解各個領域的狀況因為涉及到各院嘛還要涉及到就算在行政院也還涉及到地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6119.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6137.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以就是牽涉的範圍的確是比較大的好那我是不是建議這樣接下來如果這個案子行政院相關的部會要提相關的案子進來討論的話那我是建議是不是就用這個公職員財產申報有政務人員以他為基礎然後看哪一些認為應該要剔除 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6139.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6142.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我的意見我們會帶回去參考進行這樣的討論是不是會比較容易聚焦不然這樣整個都開花了搞不清楚現在要設定的範圍那掛一落萬或者是千年無辜就把一些不應該納進來的納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6158.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6176.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
有些人一時興起說那一種職位要納進來那有一些沒提到就忘了他那其實他也有必要那這一塊再請你們進行相關的研議用最快的時間再把他送到這個院裡頭立法院裡頭來讓我們進行相關的討論好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6194.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6197.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好 謝謝主席 那有先請全序部 謝謝麻煩市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6205.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6227.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好 那早安我想我們今天要討論的是關於政務人員是不是要行政中立這件事情那當然後續的法條我們也許之後還可以開公聽會來討論可是我想我們之前看到考試院的立場說得非常清楚考試院管的是公務人員而不是政務人員可是我們在看到考試院的報告裡面對於各國制度的掌握其實已經給了立法院一份研究的建議那這個建議當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6229.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6252.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
有特別提到一件事情我也想要跟您確認說其實有非常多民主國家對於政務人員相關規範並沒有所謂的專法的狀況是不是 是不是這樣是 就是說沒有一個叫做就是類似這樣法但他們的規範行為會散在其他不同的法律裡面也是有做一些規範那台灣現行也是這樣嘛 對不對目前我們大概主要是在行政中立法跟公務員服務法 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6253.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6271.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
大概站在這還有承協法也有對他們一些規劃那可是對於有些委員提案的版本你們目前有沒有什麼規劃或者是要討論的進度基本上我們是尊重但是就是成如我們在今天提給大院委員的報告因為我們認為因為考試院基本上是法治嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6272.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6293.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那因為政務人員本來他的行為就很多元跟動態那未來在譬如說哪些行為應該如何或應該怎麼樣來做處理這部分我們會比較建議說行政院或許比我們更適合來做因為畢竟目前中央跟地方的政務人員以人數來講是都幾乎集中在行政院跟地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6294.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6317.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
政府裡面所以我們會比較認為說才會跟大院報告說我們建議未來是應該由行政院來做這樣的一個主管機關會比較適合所以會給行政院這樣的建議可是對於現在相關委員的版本裡面他們到底含花哪些人哪些範圍的人員其實我覺得也是後續要去研究包含有沒有包含所謂的民選首長這個部分我覺得可能是會大家其中會有一些歧異的地方是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6317.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6337.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好那這個我也想要建議主席也許因為主席今天已經安排了但是我還是想要建議主席也許有機會我真的覺得應該要在辦公廳會我們把這個大家對於這件事情的理解或者是範圍定義有多廣然後這件事情我覺得還可以後續來做討論好不好好謝謝那這邊先請回謝謝接下來我想要請任總跟保訓會 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6346.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6372.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好早安我想要跟您分享一下我們這個禮拜在勞動部看到一個非常棒的政策說如果在職場上有被害人他有性騷擾的議題他必須要到場調解而這個調解雇主必須要安心給予工價這個部分是勞動部的政策那一樣只要相關勞動政策我相信所有公務人員可能也會想問那身為公務人員他們如果有相關議題或者是在職場上有被不當對待那 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6374.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6390.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
在參加性平調解或者是相關的會議當中我們的公務人員可不可以也請公假這個部分目前有相關的規範或者是討論過嗎如果沒有的話是不是可以把勞動部的這個建議也想一下在公務人員這邊我們可以怎麼規範都會比照 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6396.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6409.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
跟委員報告這是全部主管但是全部的請假規則裡面就是這個是公園是性評法適用的對象請假規則裡面就有規範所以性評法那邊有規範就我們就會一體適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6413.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6430.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以原則上如果《性平法》裡面的寫法是可以的那如果是這樣我其實也想鼓勵這邊我覺得要可以宣傳對內要讓我們公務員知道如果他們真的運氣很不好在職場上遇到這樣的事情他必須要請公價我們必須要給予公價的支持好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6432.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6458.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那接下來要說勞動部在這個相關的文章還有提到僱傭單位如果因此有不利益的對待違反規定勞工還可以檢舉相關事證去跟勞政主管機關或是勞動部的相關專線提出申請那如果我們公務員遇到這個沒有辦法請公家的狀況他們可以向誰申訴或是可以向誰檢舉讓他們可以保障自己的權益那也展現政府機關照顧公務員的決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6463.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6480.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
沒關係 如果現在還不確定機關會跟機關他本身就可以跟機關去反映去反映那如果他沒有得到相應的解決那基本上就會落到救濟的範疇那就保訓會可以跟保訓會提申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6481.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6495.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那我也建議保訓會其實我們已經有相關規範了也有相關可以做的路徑跟方法那真的是要加強推廣讓我們的公務人員知道政府機關在這件事情上是有決心而且已經有法規範而且也有途徑好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6497.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6521.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
謝謝委員 建議我們會努力來做好 謝謝因為不是我不是說你們沒做到是已經有了那我們就要把它講出來好不好因為我認為勞動部做這個圖卡其實非常非常的清楚那我相信保訓會這邊應該也是好那這邊先這樣好接下來我想要談一下關於運動部即將成立可是我們其實擔心另外一件事情也想要跟您請教運動部在我們要講運動部而是說原本 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6522.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6550.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
系屬於教育部的行政訴訟啦 溯院性平的霸凌案在阻改的過程當中我們如何讓持續的案子被可以好好的完善的往下走這邊我想要聽聽看您的建議因為我們之前陸陸續續跟行政院考試院人總衛福部勞動部去請教如果在改組之後在不同的情況下到了不同的機關去那適用的法規在阻改前後可能會有一些不一樣那我這邊想要請你們給我一個說法就是人總跟全序部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6551.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6565.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
是不是可以協助教育部先在9月9號之前有沒有機會跨部會討論協助教育部的體育署相關改組之後就是運動部升格之後相關的這些爭議的系數我們要怎麼樣銜接過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6568.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6591.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟委員報告運動部的籌組在行政局有組一個跨部會的相關的籌備工作小組也一直在進行大概包括各個面向 不管組織 業務包括他的預算等等有關於業務的職長或者是權限的管轄的劃分在暫停條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6593.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6608.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
第三條上面其實有一個原則性的規範應該是隨著業務去做相關的移轉但是如果有涉及到所謂訴訟等等的這個可能就必須要回歸到各個主管機關市發院 行政院 考試院勞動部委員這個意見我們會帶給這個小組來 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6613.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6634.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
來跟他們建議我自己猜測 我也比較關心性騷或者是霸凌等等也就是這個我們有去做過了解目前是沒有這樣的案子目前沒有所以在改組之後也不會有相關的問題目前沒有個案在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6635.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6651.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我指的是在教育部當中必須要跟體育有關的在運動部成立之後目前你們整理出來是沒有我們現在的恰的結果是恰的結果是性品案件跟犯人案件目前是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6652.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6673.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
沒有個案在進行那如果有的話我覺得就是再次確定如果有的話跨部會議很重要那至於有沒有行政訴訟的部分也再麻煩你們確定好不好如同您剛剛說性評的部分沒有霸凌的部分也沒有嘛對不對那希望行政訴訟的部分也去做相關確定那接下來還是要回到公務人員職場育兒一直以來我都有跟權敘部討論相關的問題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6677.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6690.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
現在在公務人員任用法第22條裡面我們有一個非常棒的政策我要再次謝謝全序部有提到所謂友善育兒的條款所以友善育兒就是說小朋友在三歲以下的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6691.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6713.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
如果是公務人員我可以調職到跟小朋友居住地的同一個縣市我認為這個條文利益非常良善而且確實可以讓我們的公務機關的公務人員認為政府機關在照顧我們而且協助我們育兒可是呢問題是在這個條款的第二款還有一個但書就是要實際任職達公務人員考試法鎖定限制轉調期間三分之一以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6714.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6740.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
也就是公務人員目前如果要待三年的這個基本設計來說小朋友出生後還要等一年才能轉掉也就是現行的制度會把我們的公務員跟他的孩子至少分隔一年左右那我要說你們其實在考試院有了解到這個問題考試院自己主動注意到這個問題所以在今年三月的考試院的會議就有考試委員建議你們要進一步去了解並且 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6742.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6753 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
確定一下有多少相關的個案受到影響未來還可以怎麼調整我在想這邊是不是可以請跟全序部討論一下你們有沒有機會進一步評估那連同你們現在了解的狀況做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6754.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6772.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我跟委員報告一下就是說因為因為剛剛您提示到那個部分那是本法的規範嘛那當然在法律沒修正前是沒有辦法變動但是我們對於那個這一條就是怎麼再執行商調裡面這一塊我們部裡面已經有您的一個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6772.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6802.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
送到考試院去那原則上就是說如果說屬於這個狀況的這個狀況的人他在這個機關因為我們現在未來對於商調是直接要求就是說機關不能再無限拖啦對 因為上次我們也討論過我們會要有一個要求一個時間點那我們希望說你至少在這個機關要任職滿六個月但是我們有但書這個部分也是屬於不必不必說一定會要任職滿六個月以上的範圍啦但是這還是不能排除本法三分之 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6802.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6831.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
三分之一的問題那這樣的話就會讓他在辦理商調的時候他就可以很清楚什麼時候他就可以掉手因為我們現在的修正方式就是直接要機關把明確的商調的時間點要把它明確出來而且我們有做了幾個限制譬如說原則上最多三個月那有特殊狀況之下的話最多可以在三個月所以最多就是六個月但是這個情形它是不會被動到三個月的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6832.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6851.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
因為它這是育兒的這個情形對對對所以我們其實是有機會改善而且考試院都已經提出建議了我們也有提修正案太好了非常謝謝全序部這個很正向的回應不知道後續進度我們大概我們現在在等考試院全院的審查會如果通過以後這個應該就可以就可以來發布再實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6853.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6868.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
太好了我覺得這個公務機關對於友善育兒這件事情我們確實一步一步在往前走所以在這個進度上也謝謝您剛剛的進度回覆我們很希望後續在確定修完這個相關辦法之後真的可以落實到基層公務人員的身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6868.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6890.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
讓他們在友善育兒這件事情真的有覺得政府有在照顧大家最後我要拜託一下監察院最近有一個獨家新聞在講到關於未成年抽血的事情我講的是未成年我想這邊我就是簡單拜託監察院在相關新聞上有注意進度然後確保在相關研究議題上是有進度或者是監察院這邊有沒有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6892.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6918.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
有關於那個那個運動員委員提的是運動員那個抽血案未成年未成年這個因為這個相關的新聞竟然講的是四所公立大學的未成年的部分是那這個部分我們回去我們會立刻收集相關的資料來研究一下看是不是需要要需要發文還是含查的好是謝謝委員OK好謝謝謝謝那就拜託你們注意了好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請吳思堯委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6931.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6939.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
謝主席有請我們劉秘書長全序部的懷次長還有人事總處的副人事長大家辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6949.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6968.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
在司法法治委員會我非常開心剛剛聽到我們的召委吳宗憲他引用了我們自由法典的創造者莫德斯鳩的過去的一些主張這是我大學跟研究所的時候一直在研讀的這些文章我剛剛還特別回去再看了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6969.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6989.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那趙偉說歡迎打臉他我不敢啦但是我們來交換一下觀點跟分享一下彼此挑戰一下喔莫德斯就說自由就是做法律所允許的事的這份權利沒有錯嗎所以翻成白話文就是說在無法無天的社會裡面沒有人是自由的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6990.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7016.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我怎麼解讀莫德斯鳩他的這些的論述呢我先從一個部分我建議主席可以把《論法的精神》第十一章好好再首讀一下所謂的自由就是做法律所許可的事情的權利裡頭呢所說的是自由是政治上的自由也就是公民在政治上享有的權利也就是自由人是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7018.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7041.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那麼很多學者在討論這個論法的精神十一章其實都會去對應於中國專制社會也就是說人民的法律賦予他的自由他就必須在法律所允許的範圍裡面去享有他可以享有的權利所以在專制的國家社會例如在中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7042.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7071.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
即便法律跟他講你會有一些集會結社出版言論等等說得很好聽但是事實上卻用外力也就是政治力來干預這些人民的自由公民的自由所以學界在講論法的精神十一章都是在反芻反思中國的現況而在台灣自由的台灣社會我也非常遺憾我們的立法院會用修正選罷法的方式來拿掉人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7072.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7097.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
在連署的權利給予他更難的難度甚至在一黨委員要修法連罷免的門檻要提高還好這個法律沒有修也就是我用孟德斯鳩的自由論來看到在台灣任何人都不能用外力去影響干預公民的自由很可惜在台灣有些立法委員如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7098.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7123.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
如果要講莫德斯鳩的自由法典裡頭另外一個部分我們要說的是莫德斯鳩一直在強調要用權力來制約權力因為自古至今擁有權力的人都可能濫用權力所以說制約權力就是捍衛自由的第一要務而在台灣如何check and balance就是回到憲法的規定權力分立的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7124.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7138.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
沒有誰比較大權力分立立法權不能凌駕行政權行政權也不能夠來干涉立法權同樣的立法權不能干預考試院不能干預監察院等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7140.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7163.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以說權力的check and balance互相的制約請回到憲法的精神但是在立法院往往因為政治立場的不同用修法來凌駕憲法剛剛昭偉一直在講的憲法法庭憲法法庭什麼時候在野黨的委員這麼尊重憲法法庭了是在野黨的委員惡修了憲訴法癱瘓了憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7165.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7191.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
如果要遵從憲法法庭的裁判那請讓憲法法庭能夠恢復正常的運作不要惡修憲訴法也不要來影響延宕司法院的人事同意權來干預了這所謂用權力制約權力也就是孟德斯就一直在講的這個原則所以說我做這個分享也跟今天的主題相關來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7195.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7199.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我不是要講那個嗎 最後那三頁 對不起好 前一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7200.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7229.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
剛剛主席有問到我也是要關心一下考試院反年改的附闢建在弦上那會增加政府的財政負擔也會讓年金提早破產更是踐踏了世代正義也違反憲法的權利分立原則我這裡我知道考試院的立場我們的立場一致我只是要提醒我們要嚴正以待因為在野黨已經建在弦上 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7231.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7234.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
懷次長 這個部分你們有做好什麼樣的因應準備嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7237.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7239.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我希望你們做的比過去更多因為警察人員人事條例就是被二修通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7261.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7288.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
除了表達我們政府的意見提供正確的訊息來提供整個年金的試算要讓所有的公務人員年金不只看得到更要領得到就是保障現役以及未來青年世代的公務同仁除了你們要闡述正確的訊息更要強化遊說在野黨的立委也要擴大對社會的對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7290.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7318.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我们过去往往只看到行政部门做出一个我的立场结束当我们知道立法院的委员已经建在悬上他甚至要强推的时候也不要放弃跟在野党的委员对话以及不要放弃对社会诉求我相信社会尤其青年世代会支持考试院的立场绝对反对年金斗腿炉这是我的提醒下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7319.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7337.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
同樣的好軍人加薪我就不說了在最後一頁剛剛主席一直在講憲法法庭為什麼行政院沒有編警察人員人事條例跟軍人加薪被片面修法增加的預算大法官已經釋憲過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7340.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7360.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
已经示现过了就在35年前35年前的总统是国民党的李登辉行政院长是国民党的李焕立法院长是国民党的刘阔才司法院长是国民党的林阳港换言之当时的大法官的组成也都是国民党提名国民党通过 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7362.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7380.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
但是那個時候國民黨的立法委員在立法院在審預算的時候做成一個決議要增加公務人員半個月的年終工作獎金所以國民黨的行政院提請了釋憲而國民黨的司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7381.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7400.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
做出來是違憲的才是因為不能違反憲法70條增加政府預算膨脹政府預算所以用這一個釋字264號在35年前就已經清楚被大法官打臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7402.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7430.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這一次行政院的警察人員人事條例也好或是國軍加薪被立法院加碼的部分當然已經有釋字264號的解釋跟支撐我在這裡說明以權力來制約權力請服從跟尊重憲法法庭的35年前就已經做出的宣判35年前的國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7431.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7445.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
危险35年后的国民党还要违宪吗我回到我泡泡的最前面今天在讲政务人员是不是要有个专法我认为立得好 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7446.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7464.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
比例的快更重要但是當我們看待行政中立要擴大來管制政務人員的時候我又不得不的想到了在野黨的委員要提案想修正立法院組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7466.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7476.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
讓立法院長可以兼任黨職黨魁這就是破壞了立法院組織法2016年的修法的意識中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7478.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7498.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
所以連議事中立都要破壞現在要來擴大管控政務人員的行政中立我覺得有沒有言以律己寬矣有沒有言以律人寬以待己呢但是吳斯堯同樣支持議事要中立 行政也要中立下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7500.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7523.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以說過去立法院修的法就是要捍衛議事中立我也呼籲在野黨的委員不要現在要立法來約束政務人員的時候另外為了自己的國會議長開了另外一個後門來強害議事中立我希望這個法案不會提出下一頁但是跟今天相關的幾位 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7525.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7548.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我的觀點立法的爭點從過去到現在我印象中考試院送出幾次但是好像在立法院從來沒有在委員會討論過對不對祕書長可能有的有委員會的討論他只有一讀其實沒有送到委員會討論或者是送出法案但立法院沒有討論為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7550.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7569.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
為什麼這個非常多年前的事就是沒有共識就是我說的這四個爭點第一個有沒有需要在現行已有法治規範之下另立專法第二主管機關要行政院還是考試院這是老問題第三適用對象要擴大納入哪些人成為政務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7570.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7595.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
的適用對象以及規範的行為到底要規範到哪裡這四個爭點讓過去到現在這麼多年來沒有辦法進展我認為我們可以這一屆立法院好好來討論我支持行政中立我支持政務人員的行為有一個可以討論的專法可以討論下一頁所以一個一個來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7597.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7626.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
现行的政务人员的行为散列在各个法规包括行政中立法公务员服务法公务员惩戒法联刑法一二一条都有收费的罪所以说他规范了很多公务对不起政务人员不得不得不得的这些规范已在各个法规都有了下一页有没有需要专法呢国际上有没有部长次长 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7627.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7628.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
國際上有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7629.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7657.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
跟委員報告大概主要國家我們有理解應該是沒有一個專門的法律他們都是跟我們現在狀況是比較像是站在不同法律上所以我這裡做的主要的民主進步國家美國加拿大英德日等等都沒有專法因為都用其他的法的體系在落實台灣需不需要可以討論但是要立得好而不是立得快下一頁另外一個重點適用的對象我就講重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7658.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7663.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
排除了民選首長合理嗎排除了民選首長合理嗎來次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7667.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7691.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這個當然要一起考慮因為民選地方行政首長他的權限事實上也並不亞於其他部會的政務首長所以可以邀請地方政府一起來討論嘛對不對 擴大討論嘛所以適用的對象有疑義不要掛一漏萬或者是規範了很多卻漏了關鍵的一部分最後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7692.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7712.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好主管機關請問你們今天召委已經排了未來再討論的過程你們喬好了沒行政院還是考試院其實跟委員報告大概從第12屆就是前面三屆以來大概在這個部分跟行政院之間都有一些不一樣的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7713.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7727.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那不過這一次如果這個一方面尊重我們立法院的討論那一方面就是說我們也尊重行政院的意見都尊重那行政院呢來你們要接嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7729.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7747.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
因為我們過去已經有表達過不過剛剛召委提的疑慮的問題我們也跟召委報告如果大家同意由我們行政院來提出那我們行政院還是會會選考試院因為這個所以你們願意主題成為主管機關我們願意主題 然後我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7749.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7769.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
會建議說要會請考試院的好 謝謝你的答案因為我也認為讓考試院來進行相對政治性的政務人員的管理是有問題的如果行政院願意接了這個球來研議一個專法我支持好嗎期待未來研議的過程行政院扮演多一點角色最後一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7770.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7790.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好这就是我的结论政务人员立专法yes可以讨论但是草率仓促的立法no我们就要思量我支持不管是政院版或是市院版在立法院未来可以并案审查我也支持公听会尤其地方民选首长要排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7791.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7815.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們可以擴大跟學者專家中央地方政府的對話討論最後一個要配套如果有一個專法現行的其他法規要不要一併檢討我認為也需要好嗎所以在這裡提醒要有院版要有公聽會要有制度的配套會讓我們未來的政務人員專法的催生更嚴謹更周延好我們一起努力謝謝好謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7831.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7860.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好 謝謝主席我在這邊首先先請國防部王副處長法律事務處軍法事務處副處長王副處長然後也請內政部的簡專委是不是簡專委好 那首先不好意思 那個王副處長對 我想先請教在過去不好意思 我先去拿消毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7871.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7876.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我在這邊想請教就是在過去這些年裡面我們國軍的待遇調整有多少次我們曾經有多少次調心從105年開始到現在詳細我不知道但是我記得好幾次基本上我看了一些新聞從105年起國防部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7895.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7915.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
對於這個軍人的調薪有調整了四次核器達福大概是14%那請問因為我想您在軍中也服役很久了這個您過去有沒有印象就是軍人待遇調薪然後行政院不編預算國防部不編預算的有沒有曾經國防部不編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7921.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7946.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
包委員因為這個預算非我們本師我是法律師的所以這不是法律師應該要了解相關的法制啊是那有關這個部分我這邊並不清楚是不是我會後那從法律的角度來說您認為我們這立法院的法律的這個軍人待遇條例都通過了給軍人的待遇調薪尤其是家計的部分調薪那這個部分可以不執行嗎可以不編列預算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7950.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7958.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
你們國防部的法律事務處在國防部不編列預算這件事情上面你們有向你們的長官表達過這可能會有違法的疑慮嗎這個部分我們部長在近日對媒體也有回答說基於行政議題的部分所以國防部都沒有向行政院表示過任何 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7976.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7988.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個抗議或是認為說這樣子的做法是有違法疑慮的都沒有把這樣的意見告訴過行政院院長嗎這一部分我這邊並不是很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7989.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8012.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
看起來現在顧立雄他就是個聽命行事的國防部部長他根本沒有把國軍弟兄放在心裡他如果說他是個愛護國軍的這個長官的話他今天就應該要在行政院會議上面或者是說他應該要向行政院長去反映怎麼可以法律通過了竟然不編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8014.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8027.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
鮑委員 從我們部長一上任以來就不斷的跟我們各級的幹部來講這個一定要照顧國軍那針對國軍的各項域的待遇之災我們要聽其言 觀其行啦這個副處長您不用幫顧立雄插著抹粉他到底有沒有愛護國軍弟兄這一次的事件就清清楚楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8036.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8053.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
他沒有編列就沒有編列甚至連向行政院院長去抗議去提出異議他都沒有看起來就是這樣那請問接下來我想請問內政部的簡專委內政部部長有沒有向行政院院長提出異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8058.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8081.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
報告委員因為我們今天派員列席的這個部分是不清楚關於這個警校條例的相關的這個加級的問題那是不是容我們會後再跟委員做說明應該也沒有我沒有看到劉世芳劉部長在媒體上面有說他要捍衛警校人員的權益然後向行政院長表示異議表示抗議也沒有嘛所以呢不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8083.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8098.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個國防部部長顧立雄或是劉世芳部長內政部部長劉世芳基本上說什麼愛軍愛警消我覺得那都是騙人的好 那我現在要講的就是好 請兩位先回座接下來請考試院劉秘書長或是權敘部的這個懷次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8114.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8122.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
是 請問劉秉樹長這次這個考試院針對114年考試院的預算你們有提出釋憲嗎你們當時有 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8125.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8146.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
加在行政院的中央政府總預算裡面一起去提起釋憲嗎 考試院的部分沒有 總預算因為是行政院的權責考試院沒有就這個部分提出所以我在想可能你也不太清楚到底行政院提出的114年的總預算的釋憲裡面有沒有涵蓋你考試院的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8150.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8161.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
他是一整本去釋憲吧他就總預算釋憲要總預算釋憲就包含全國但是內容上面的部分我有沒有請你們的有知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8163.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8188.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
因為我沒有看過那個釋憲文所以不知道他到底提什麼釋憲所以這是很可笑的一件事情卓榮泰他提出了114年的政府總預算的釋憲案裡面可能就包含了考試院 司法院 監察院而你們卻一無所知你們根本不知道你的預算是不是已經被提起釋憲了我上次有問過司法院的副秘書長他說他不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8189.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8208.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
但是看起來他這整包的一起去提起釋憲還有就是說按照賴清德的邏輯說如果現在案子申請釋憲案當中就不應該執行那麼114年的中央政府總預算案是不是也應該要停止執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8213.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8238.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我真的很覺得有的時候看到我們的賴總統的發言卓榮泰院長的發言都讓我覺得說他們怎麼可以雙標到如此的境界114年中央政府的總預算案它釋憲在先而且大法官已經受理了憲法法庭受理了看看我們的軍人待遇條例跟解消人員條例它是什麼時候提出釋憲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8239.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8257.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
前幾天8月22號才送出的大法官受理了嗎沒有受理啊你們的四限案這個大法官受理了你們還是繼續執行錢都快花完了現在還要來追加預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8259.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8276.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對於這個法律通過的該編的預算也不編然後竟然還說是因為現在在申請釋憲中所以就拒絕編列等待釋憲結果之後再行編列這種話也說得出來我真的是覺得非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8277.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8290.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
感到真的不知道應該怎麼樣去批評現在的我們的總統跟院長竟然可以違法到這樣子的這個境界好 那麼接下來請監察院好 請兩位請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8299.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8310.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
今天是處長監察業務處的黃處長來監察院的職權到底是什麼您可不可以解釋一下監察院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8312.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8337.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
報告委員監察院的職權是針對公務人員的違法失職然後我們行使那個憲法賦予的權利包括彈劾糾舉然後我們並提出比較跳的報告另外公職人員財產申報是不是針對好 我想很重要針對公務人員以及行政機關的違法失職進行彈劾及糾舉糾正對於現在我們看到的行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8338.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8361.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他不執行法律這個部分有沒有啟動調查監察院有啟動調查嗎調查權的行使是監察委員的職權他們是獨立行使職權所以這個部分的話我們當然會所以到現在為止監察委員沒有一個人是有啟動調查包含這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8363.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8384.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
行政院它違法苛扣地方性的補助款以及它不編列之前對於公務人員加薪一直拖拖拖拖了幾個月之後才核發調整的薪水然後到現在又違法的不編列軍人和警消人員的調薪這場委員不應該啟動調查嗎我希望今天處長可以把我幾個委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8394.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8406.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個質疑帶回去給監察委員他們是不是應該要依職權要啟動調查而不應該這麼怠惰謝謝處長那麼接下來我要再講的就是請那個請也是請劉秘書長還有懷次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8421.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8445.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
今天我們其實討論考記法的問題但考記法的問題裡面其實我在這邊有幾個議題你們所提的條文的修正我大致上都同意但是還是有一些地方我不是很清楚尤其是對於我們現在知道公務人員常常可能會一次兩大過就免職但是如果說是每年他都是一大過 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8446.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8452.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那麼連續好幾年每年都一大過現在我們有辦法去處理像這樣子的案子嗎像這樣的公務員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8454.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8479.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
跟委員報告一下因為我們烤雞的功過是以烤雞年度為主所以他去年記過一大過 今年記過一大過他不會被累積起來變成兩個大過但是您剛剛提到就是說比如說講的比較粗暴一點就是說可能工作都爛爛的 經常就粗暴這些應該是在平時成績考就要來給他執行執行包括他的年度烤雞就要一起把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8480.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8504.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
是的 我想講的就是說因為其實我們看到其實很多的公共機關有反應其實他們沒辦法去處理那個他可能常常年度被打考積是平等的那沒有辦法處理那可是在你們這次修正裡面我沒有看到你們有針對類似這種常常被考列平等的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8505.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8528.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
有一個更積極的一個處理的機制這個部分的話是不是可以請你們去研析就是有關於就是常常被考慮兵等人員有沒有更正向的輔導改善機制好 那個委員這個意見我們帶回去我們這次跟委員報告我們這次修正主要是配合這次那個保障法的修正對於霸凌 性侵 性騷這些整體的一個配套的一個修正在第12條部分謝謝委員指導 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8530.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8545.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好 了解然後另外就是說是談到有關於政務人員法制方面的問題其實在上次情緒部的部長施部長他說有關於政務人員的法制不屬於考試院的權責請問劉秘書長你們考試院的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8551.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8567.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
各位報告這一屆考試委員沒有就這個部分做成討論那這個因為那前一屆呢前一屆沒有處理都沒有處理對12屆也沒有再前一屆也沒有那主要就是因為說如果這個事跟行政院沒有共識的話其實這個法案送不出來因為他會險 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8569.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8590.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
考試院在多年前曾經有提出過政務人員法到政務人員的退府條例也是屬於你們考試院所提的退府條例比較特別因為考試院憲政你按照我們的風景也是由你們處理的憲政執掌上面是有退府去的所以這個部分我覺得非常重要必須要去釐清另外有關於陳菊的請假的問題她現在已經請假幾個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8594.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8600.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
對 這我不清楚 可能要問檢察院從大概現在為止應該請假七八個月了嗎請問處長大概差不多八個月了吧是 報告委員那個院長的請假按照公務人員的請假規則現在目前請假的時間的確已經超過八個月已經超過八個月了所以如果說按照我們公務人員請假規則來講的話他最長的可以請假到什麼 明年到今年年底 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8623.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8637.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個部分按照那個規則他除了士兵假休假都請完之外另外還可以請延長兵假所以他最長可以請到多久這個部分因為這個部分是不是要請我要講的就是說政務人員的請假規則裡面其實非常清楚他最多可能請一年可是陳菊不一樣他也不是狹野的公務員對不對他是政務人員政務人員可以請假這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8650.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8656.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
雖然說我們不忍心看到有任何一個政務官生病請假但是他確實請假這麼長他已經也耽誤了公務公職更何況就是說我們看到有其他的一些法規如果像不管是中選會NCC的這些相關組織法如果說是委員他離病或生病等等的話其實行政院長是可以允允免職的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8674.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8698.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這未來的相關法制你們是不是也應該要去修正一下否則如果說我們未來的政務官長期的這樣生病他沒有辦法執行他的職務那麼其實不管社會觀感也不好而且我覺得最重要它是會影響到政務的所以這部分的話也應該要去一併的去修法也請你們要給我一份延續報告然後最後我要再講就是剛剛吳思瑤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8701.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8724.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
真的叫做鬼扯一通難怪人家說他常常就是無造謠他對於法律對於憲法是一知半解所以常常就會講一些莫名其妙根本不正確的事情他剛剛講說過去在憲法大法官解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8726.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8753.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
264號解釋裡面也有講到說立法院是不可以任意的提出追加預算他到底有沒有搞清楚264號解釋講的是當時是立法院做成的決議希望行政機關要求要追加預算要提高發放半個月的工作獎金這只是一個決議它不是立法院通過的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8755.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8774.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
吳思瑤今天他說的剛剛講的說因為264號解釋的理由所以這次行政院跟賴清德總統認為說軍人待遇條例他是調高薪水所以不應該編列預算這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8776.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8792.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
說法是完全錯誤根本不是這麼回事這吳思瑤委員其實她雖然在立法院已經做了好幾屆的委員但是我完全看不出來她的法律素養是有進步是有漲進 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8794.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8819.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
如果說今天他要講這個事情他應該要把264號解釋好好的看清楚而不是張冠禮禮帶把根本不是這個根本不適合拿來跟這一次行政院違法不編列軍人緊銷這個待遇的還有退休金的這樣的一個預算的事情拿來做相比擬這是非常惡劣很惡質的所以就是不斷的這個造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8821.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8842.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我最后还要再强调就是限诉法的修正基本上它是跟很多国家的做法是相同的在我们过去大法官审理案件法里面也是将审理的门槛做成为宪判人员杠它的标准是三分之二或四分之三的怎么可以说限诉法是恶法 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8844.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8864.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
憲法法庭今天沒有辦法這個這個召開審理他的問題不在於限訴法而是在於沒有適合的大法官人選就連民進黨自己都不認同賴清德總統所提出的大法官這個候選人怎麼可以怪罪到說這個是限訴法是惡法所以我看到吳思瑤委員這樣子的一個發言非常不能認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8875.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8897.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我必須要再講立法委員在這個質詢台上面自己要做功課多讀書不要常常去講一些五四三這個混淆是非的一些論述這個真的是有愧於身為一個民意代表身為立法委員好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8901.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8902.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
謝謝主席 我先請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8932.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8934.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
懷旭次長麻煩次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8939.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8962.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
前面我先呼應一下剛才翁小林委員的說法其實我想經過7.26、8.23之後其實立法院我們真的需要一個正常的立法院包含賴清德總統他不是也都訓示了嗎就說應該民生優先、經濟優先弱勢優先、青年優先可是我想民進黨黨團的幹事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8967.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8990.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
反而是沒有在聽也沒有在懂繼續的來做朝野之間的對立跟衝突然後自己以為自己是大法官可以來解釋憲法只是為了要去護航行政院違憲不編列由總統府已經公告的法律案這些法定的預算不編列這個才是迴憲亂政 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8993.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9016.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我想接下來要問次長的事就是在我們公務人員的權益保障的過程裡面其中一個商調權這個是我們很多基層公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的因為我們現行的公務人員他們要調單位的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9017.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9032.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
幾乎很常會碰到原單位不放人所以他們非常非常的困擾那當然這個呢他們也陳情很多次那麼也跟我們考試院詮釋部其實也反應很多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9032.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9047.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以現在我看到我們針對公務人員的任用法的施行細則現在已經預告修法回應了公務人員的商調權的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9050.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9078.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以在修法的內容的部分第一個其實我看到的就是第21條跟21條之一的修正草案那麼就是針對特別是你在原服務機關的所在地跟你三足歲以下的子女實際居住地沒有在同一個直轄市縣市因為他要有養育 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9079.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9095.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
子女的這樣的一個責任所以他可以請掉而這裡面是可以排除就是商調權因為不然過去只要原機關不放人他也沒有辦法都沒有辦法照顧家庭也沒有辦法照顧幼兒 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9096.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9121.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
另外還有一個部分就是你在原服務機關曾受到性騷擾職場霸凌而且經認定成立的或者是依其他法律規定請商調不得拒絕我想這樣的修法的方向基本上我們支持但是在你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9123.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9137.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
條文裡面又做了一些但書那這個但書呢就是說針對就是可以延長的部分也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9138.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9157.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
第一個就是當然你本來是基於你的交接上的問題你可以還是可以多留他三個月多留他三個月但是你們在條文裡面要給他一個但書就是他的過掉日期還可以再延三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9158.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9176.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
也就是原來的三個月再加三個月所以就是他恐怕就是會拖長達半年之久半年之久而且這個的可以延長的狀況其實就有一些我覺得這個就有很大的行政裁量權 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9179.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9194.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
譬如說你這個當然你說搶救重大災害或緊急重大突發事件譬如說假設這一次我們南部縣市在丹納斯颱風這個重大災害的搶救也許它符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9195.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9219.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
但是它有所謂的辦理重大專案業務辦理季節性、週期性的工作期間所以這又給原服務單位一個很大的解釋權這一點其實對很多的基層公務人員就覺得這又有點刁難的意味就讓它有刁難的空間所以我想請教次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9220.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9237.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
就是針對這一部分也就是延長的部分是不是可以更加的明確然後不要讓基層的公務員認為這個很可能到時候又被刁難然後他就走不掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9238.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9253.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我跟委員報告一下就是說後來我們在報給考試員的草案裡面對於季節性週期性工作我們這個部分已經把它刪除掉了好吧 季節性跟週期性那那個重大專案這個部分因為我們這次整個架構的設計基本上就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9256.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9268.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
您提到這邊包括他有性騷擾或者是等等這些只要判決確定這個都一定有機關要很快就要讓他調走再來就是說如果你有申請過保障事件可是你在條文裡面沒有講說像這個什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9270.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9288.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
职场霸凌或性骚扰确定之后你就没有这一些相关的因为我们后来这可能是公告条文后来我们确定最后报告考试院的条文部分我们对像有养育资率三岁以下等等或者你在这机关因为性骚扰 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9289.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9307.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
市長霸凌被確定成立的還有就是說你是曾經向保訓會提起互審或申訴經過確定說機關的處分要被撤銷這些人都可以不必受六個月限制就可以申請商調離開那麼在這個他不受六個月但他還是有三個月的還是 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9308.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9323.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這是最長就是三個月 這是最長那我們另外在這個條文上還有做一個設計就是說如果怕 等於說一個督促性的設計機關如果說不處理它譬如說我把公文收了就一直問那我們就會讓你兩個月後就自動生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9324.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9339.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就是說逼你也不是逼啦就是說我督促你一定你不處理的話這個案子兩個月後就會自動生效出去所以我們在所謂兩個月自動生效是因為我今天來商調假設我今天來商調那我一直不處理兩個月後我就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9340.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9368.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
就自動視同我已經同意兩個月後掉手這個概念因為這個條文我也知道包括公務員團體還有機關我們大概在遵循各機關意見中我們希望取得一個橫評所以我們大概做這樣的一個處理大概目前就是說我也跟委員報告就是說我們不可能盡如機關的意但是也不可能盡如所有人大家都而且我知道這個當然是這個用人單位跟公務人員他們必須要一個橫評 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9369.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9385.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以你的意思就是說如果因為其實有些機關就很機車嘛有些長官很機車啊不報人啊那現在這樣我就不處理所以你不處理那就兩個月就自動生效你連給他延長三個月都不行就立刻他就可以調到商調單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9389.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9404.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
然後現在就是說那你現在最長最長就是三個月嗎三加三就最多六個月不是 那你最後那個加三加三有條件限制對啊 我知道那條件你的條件能不能更具體講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9404.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9421.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
因為我剛剛就在講啊你這個有些什麼重大專案業務他到時候生出一個重大專案業務就又留你啊我們最多就是說譬如說我們雙方協調過同意的也可以那是你自己協調那再來就是說我們在依規定譬如說你是屬於那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9422.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9442.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
偏鄉地區或離島偏鄉地區高山坯這個我覺得我們要考慮這些地方不容易找人那另外一個就是說如果你正在辦理重大救災事務或重大專案但這個重大專案也不是他可以隨便解釋譬如說只是舉例可能我們現在正在審預算的時期這個時候因為有業務上的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9443.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9469.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
或者說他可能這個只有那段時間的時候那你可以把它適當延長可是我們最多也是讓你頂多就是三個月多延長三個月那麼我也跟委員報告就是說我們這個草案在出去的時候本來我們要這樣的處理大概中央跟地方政府也都有很多的意見認為就是說應該機關要保有當然我知道這個誘人機關一定是比較抗拒的包括地方政府我們也看一下大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9470.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9492.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
譬如說以公園最多六都就有四都他們認為說不一定所以我們後來還是需要做一些折衷就是說希望兼顧機關的因為畢竟政府機關是上次為民服務那如果人突然間就是不確定的狀況下常常掉走也會因為走的人不是也是當天就可以補來那這個部分當然了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9493.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9518.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
總之要有這樣的考量因為你調走的人他剩下的工作事實上是沒有離開的人要去幫你承擔所以我們在這種情況下希望取得一個橫平就大家互相體諒很好 就是兩個要求第一個要求就是把你們現在的現有的條文然後提供給一份給我們辦公室第二個就是我剛才特別提到就是說你要有些行政裁量權那個行政裁量權不能太過的寬鬆太過寬鬆的話就變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9523.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9551.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
用人機關就是又不讓人走的一個理由好不好大概就最主要這兩個那另外就是說就麻煩你趕快把他那個新的條文內容我已經報到考試院就等考試院審查好可以好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員諮詢時所要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請輸送交個別委員及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9552.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9573.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
委員審發會所提書面執行均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆好 現在我們進行討論事項先做說明第二案今日警報告及詢問請議事人員宣讀討論事項第一案提案條文預估宣讀時間為9分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9576.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9601.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 那個各位如果需要去洗手間可以利用這九分鐘洗手間那為了方便審查如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出請儘速將書面送交主席台以利應發現場進行討論審查法案時請主要列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座那如果已經收到了修正動議議議並宣讀 宣讀後即進行討論好 請宣讀條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9606.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9627.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
請參閱條文對照表 討論事項第一案 公務人員考機法委員邱志偉等提案第三條 公務人員考機區分如下一 年終考機指各官等人員於每年年終辦理期當年1月至12月連續任職期間之考機第二款第三款同線型條文 並增訂第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9628.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9651.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
公務人員任職期間符合前項第一款或第二款規定為全無工作事實者不辦理年終考機或另於考機但經機關選送待職待薪金修者不在此限委員范雲等提案第三條除了第二款的默劇修正為而累計任職已達六個月者辦理之考機外其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9653.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9676.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
委員範圍等提案第11條各機關參加考機人員任本職等年終考機或另於考機具有左列各款情形之一者取得同關等高一值等制任用資格一年終考機二年列家等者二年終考機一年列家等二年列一等者三年終考機一年列家等另於考機二年列家等者四 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9677.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9699.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
年終考積一年列家等 一年列一等 另於考積二年列一等者五 年終考積一年列家等 另於考積四年列一等者六 年終考積一年列一等 另於考積二年列家等 二年列一等者七 年終考積二年列一等 另於考積二年列家等者八 另於考積四年列家等者 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9700.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9711.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
第二項除了倒數第二句修正為但以不同官等職等病資辦理年終考積或淋雨考積之年資其餘同線型條文考試院提案第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9713.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9736.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
各機關辦理公務人員平時考核獎懲獎勵分加獎技工技一大功成儲分升屆技過技一大過於年終考機時並計年級並計成績增減總分平時考核獎懲的互相抵銷而無獎懲抵銷而累積達二大過者年終考機英烈一等 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9737.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9758.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
專案考積與有重大功過時行之其結果依下列規定依一次計二大功者進本縫一級以達所需值等本縫最高級最高縫級或以續年功縫級者進年功縫一級均給予一個月縫級總額至一次獎金以續至年功縫最高縫級者給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9760.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9779.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
二個月奉集總額至一次獎金但在同一年度內再因一次季二大工辦理專案考積者不再進敘奉集改改給二個月奉集總額至一次獎金二一次季二大過者免職三前項第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9780.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9799.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
一次即二搭工之標準應於施行細則中明定之專考即不得與平時考核獎懲相抵銷公務人員除在同一考進年度內曠職繼續達四日或累計達十日應於一次即二搭過者外非有具體施政足認有下列情形之一者不得為一次即二搭過處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9800.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9824.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
第一款至第五款 同限制條文第一款至第五款六 因服用酒類或適用毒品等至不能安全駕駛動力交通工具且發生交通事故致人於死或重傷或致人死傷而逃逸違反有關法律規定七 對他人為性侵害經有關機關或依法組成之相關委員會查證屬實但經檢察官提起公訴者 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9825.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9845.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
英語一次記二大過處分8.對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾使其遭受身心不法侵害情節重大至受害人重大身心創傷或死亡9.對他人為自場霸凌使其遭受身心不法侵害情節重大至受害人重大身心創傷或死亡10.脅迫公然侮辱或 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9847.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9863.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
誣告長官情節重大 十一 挑撥離間或破壞紀律情節重大 十二 違反有關法令規定致嚴重損害政府或公務人員生育 傾向第七款人員經不起訴 還起訴處分或無罪判決確定者 應撤銷其一次即二大過處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9865 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9886.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
公務人員之違私行為經主管機關或所權之所屬機關任屬一次計二大過者懲處權行使期間為十五年屬計一大過者懲處權行使期間為七年屬計過戶或身屆者懲處權行使期間為五年前向期間自違私行為終了之日起行為屬不作為者 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9887.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9894.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
自作为义务消灭时起算但行为之结果发生在后者自该结果发生时起算 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9896.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9920.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
各機關對公務人員所為之懲處經相關救濟程序撤銷並由原處分機關定為司法之處分者懲處權行使期間自原懲處被撤銷確定之日重新起算但上開案件部分撤銷原因系原懲處是由已遇懲處權行使期間者該等懲處是由不重新起算懲處權行使期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9922.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9936.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
委員王宏威等提案第十二條第一項序文的默劇及第二款的默劇及第三項的手續中的左列均改為下列之外其餘同線型條文第三項並增列第九款第十款 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9939.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9965.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾時期遭受身心不法侵害情節嚴重對他人為職場霸凌時期遭受身心不法侵害情節嚴重並申訂第四項第五項受考人除平時考核獎懲相互抵銷後無獎懲抵銷而累計計二搭過年終考機因考列疑等者外須有具體施政 主任在考進年度內屢有下列情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9966.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9982.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
一 一再勸導無效經綜合考評後已不適任者 實得免職一 因駕駛動力交通工具涉嫌違反中華民國刑法第185條之3規定經檢察官起起公訴或因不依指示停車接受檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9984.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10002.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
檢測稽查或拒絕接受檢測等違反道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條第四項規定二對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾時期遭受身輕不法侵害情節嚴重三對他人對他人為職場霸凌時期遭受身輕不法侵害情節嚴重四挑撥離間或 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10003.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10029.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
無控濫告 情節嚴重 影響機關和諧重大不聽指揮或破壞紀律 情節嚴重 影響機關紀律重大戴護之手 羈言公務或績效不彰 造成嚴重不良後果 影響機關績效重大效能重大 負責業務處置適當 造成嚴重財務或人員損傷 影響機關運作重大洩露因保守之機關秘密或因秘密事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10031.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10052.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
情節重情節嚴重影響器官利益重大9濫用職權整肅異己尋思不公情節嚴重影響公務人員權益重大10違反行政中立或其他公務人員有關法令規定情節嚴重影響政府信譽重大11品德操守惡劣工作表現或服務態度極差或有其他嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10053.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10081.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
不称职情事第一项第一款人员所涉部分违法案件似经无罪判决确定者应予检讨是否撤销其太除考级并重违考级考级委员会对于拟一前项规定予以考列太除案件应有全体委员三分之二以上之出席出席委员三分之二以上同意使得决议委员吴佩义等二十人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10082.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10098.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第12條對照考試員提案第一項序文修正為各機關辦理公務人員平時考核獎懲及專案考機分別依下列規定並增訂第一款平時考核及第二款專案考機 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10100.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10124.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
修正第二項前項第二款第一目之一次計二大公之標準應於實行細則中明定之專案考記不得與平時考核將成相抵銷第三項修正第三項的序文修正為非有具體事證足任有下列情形之一者不得為一次計二大過處分一到八款同考試院提案九 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10126.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10154.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
礦值繼續達四日或一年累計達十日者第十款同考試院提案第九款十一 脅迫公然侮辱或誣告長官情節重大有確實證據者十二 挑撥離間或破壞紀律情節重大有確實證據者十三 違反有關法令規定致嚴重損害政府公務人員生育以下第四項至第七項均同考試院提案委員範圍等提案第十二條對照考試院提案除將第四項第八款修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10156.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10185.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
八對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾情節重大第九款修正為對他人為職場霸凌情節重大及第六項修正為公務人員之為委事行為經公主管機關或授權所屬機關認屬一次計二大過者懲處權行使之間為二十年屬一屬計一大過者懲處權行使期間為十年屬計過或申請者懲處權行使期間為五年其餘通考試院提案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10186.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10186.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10191.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10218.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好 條文宣讀完畢 現在進行討論第一案繼續併案審查考試院函請審議公務人員考記法第十二條條文修正草案等五案本案經一百一十四年八月十四日本會及本會第二十四次會議報告及詢答完畢決議另定及繼續審查 原因今日繼續審查請問在場委員是否要先進行大體討論或直接進入主條 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10221.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10222.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好 直接進入主條 謝謝好OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10234.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10255.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們繼續進行逐條討論我們共計要處理的是三案我們現在先看排序一 第三條有邱志偉等21人提案范雲委員等17人提案請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出范委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10257.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10283.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
第三條它涉及到就是我們請育嬰假等的公務員的升遷權益因為過去的制度規定令嬰考機必須連續任職滿六個月才能計算那我收到不少陳情而且幾乎都是女性的公務員那他們請了育嬰假可是因為工作累積已經滿半年卻因為不是連續六個月直接被排除考機資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10284.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10305.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這樣的規定等於在懲罰那些為家庭犧牲的經常會是女性的公務員未來後半就是生產或是育嬰之後的一個申簽其實我想政府一直在遇到就是要鼓勵大家值家平衡我們有這樣的設計既然他們可以請的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10308.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10326.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那未來其實也是不分性別那賴總統也有這樣的一個鼓勵的政策所以我建議就是說我們第三條把連續六個月改成累計六個月也就是說只要你實際工作滿半年不管中間有沒有留置停薪都可以拿到考積 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10327.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10345.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那這就是保障基層公務員不要因為他照顧家庭然後最後他的職涯後面就被犧牲那之後的一個起點就不平等了以上好 謝謝 請問其他委員有沒有意見要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10346.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10368.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
好 翁委員這邊我想請教那個考試院就是說因為剛剛范雲委員講的這樣的一個情況那在實務上面會不會有一些公務員他可能請運駕一個月然後之後他又回來上班然後之後又請一個又請了這個就他的請假他是中段的分開請的那像這樣的情況的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10371.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10399.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
如果還是可以讓他們辦理烤雞會不會影響到跟其他的工作同仁的烤雞的這個公平性對 我只是想要請教說在食物上有沒有類似遇到像這樣一個狀況跟委員報告一下因為這種情形就是說如果它大概在食物上是會發生但是因為如果說我們考慮的是說假設我們現在政策是討論的是育嬰的這樣的一個概念的話當然這在立法政策上面把它做適當的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10400.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10419.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我們部裡面基本上是認為這個也許委員可以再大家一起來討論一下就是說如果是要行修一個友善環境的這個角度來看的話因為請育嬰他不見得一次就會請一年或請兩年他可能會視當時的狀況像像我們比較理解就是說通常都會在前半年會就是生育以後請完那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10421.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10448.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
產駕以後會接下來可能連續請三個月育嬰假或者是請半年的育嬰假那有可能他在帶小孩過程中可能也許保母一下子沒辦法找到或等等他會變更這個這個在實務上的確是會有的可是如果說現在這樣子的修改的方式的話就是他不管是請育嬰假或是其他的假可能都會一併的考量對不對試假或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10450.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10472.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
是的 所以說如果說未來要把這個把這樣子的概念如果說要修法的話直接通過另一考機因為他請假基本上是還是在職期間他請假期間是在職期間所以他這個情況應該是是留職停薪的狀態才會有這種情形要留職停薪才會這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10479.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10505.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
請問那各機關有沒有補充好都沒有嗎其實就全區部這邊是支持這樣子的一個修法嗎我們當然是可以的那再來至於說這個第二項這我們是已經有全區部已經有另事就是說這種沒有工作事實是不用另考記所以這一個條文我們可以整理一下等一下送給各位再看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10507.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10533.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
你是要把范委員的第二 第二項第二款做一下處理還有既然這一項要處理那你們現在趕快弄上來我們看一下好不好 謝謝他應該是指邱委員邱委員的第二項啦趕快拿一下同仁已經在發了 謝謝是把現在的命令寫在法律條文上面我們同仁有處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10541.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10561.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
修正動議 這邊有修正動議 那我們先請議事人員唸出來修正動議第三條公務人員考期區分如下然後第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10564.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10583.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
連續修正為累計然後增訂第二項公務人員任職期間符合前項第一款或第二款規定為全無工作事實者不辦理年終考機或另餘考機但經機關選送待職待薪進修者不在此限 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10590.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10602.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
好那請問各位對於這樣的修正的文字有沒有什麼意見沒有那因為這個修正東西並沒有簽名那是不是如果大家都沒有意見的話是我們在上面簽名就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10614.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10619.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
就是文字修正當作是文字修正建議然後我們都同意的話就在上面簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10686.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10715.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那補宣告提案人部分提案委員 王宏威 吳思瑤 陳培宇王逸川 翁曉琳 范雲 吳宗憲 宣傳閉好 那請問各位委員我們就依照委員王宏威等六人所提的修正動議通過 大家是否同意同意好 那就依照修正動議通過好 那現在審查排序二第十一條范雲委員等十七人提案請問在場各位委員有沒有意見補充 好 范委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10717.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10734.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這一條是承接剛剛第三條的修正讓在同一年度內雖然任職未滿一年但是累積有六個月所進行的剛剛那個令雨考積也能夠和一般的年終考積一樣有甲乙丙等而且能夠進入升等資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10735.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10754.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
舉例來說未來不管是年終考積一年甲等還是令於考積兩年甲等它都一樣其實只是說有一個平等的具備升等的資格這樣才公平為什麼會提這個也是我過去遇到的一些陳情包含遇到一些非常優秀的女性外交官 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10755.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10771.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他就因為曾經有請過育嬰假後來在升遷的時候發現會有一個不公平的對待我想如果我們鼓勵不管是性別平等或者是不分性別大家能夠有這樣的空間的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10773.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10787.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個部分好像不應該在他請了這個假之後在升遷上感覺到就是受到不公平的對待那這其實只是一個平等的機會也不代表他就真的能夠有很好的升遷以上請問各位委員有沒有意見要補充請機關這邊回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10799.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10817.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝 這個部分我們大概也看過一個換委員提案的說明他是因為留職庭制的考機有好幾種狀況有一種可能他是受到拘獄或罰金判刑確定後然後異乎勞役在留職留庭的那另外或是受刑事宣報確定判決並准許那個異乎社會勞動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10818.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10844.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
還有他可能是受到撤職休職啊免職處分的那種臨時中斷所以我想就是說委員的這個意見應該指的是說如果你是像類似育嬰流子停薪的部分所以我們希望說要就限縮在這個範圍內因為不然其他撤職現在拿來作為那個感覺怪怪的那另外一個部分就委員這邊有提到就是那個考積甲乙等的這樣分算的方式總共列了八款 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10845.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10865.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
但是這八款我們部裡面看過是說在實務執行上太複雜了那我們有一個建議的修正條文是不是可以給各位委員看一下我們就請你們focus在育嬰留庭的部分然後後面簡化它因為我也看這個漏漏的不知道要怎麼來 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10885.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10888.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
沒問題因為這樣寫就是第二項針對育嬰留職停薪辦理之令與考積嘛然後就分什麼什麼層級 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10905.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10918.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
可以啊 職務上面各個執行機關他也比較能夠快速理解提案委員同意的話我們現在就簽一下如果各委員同意的話那我們是不是就直接簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10953.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10974.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
好請議事人員宣讀修正動議二第十一條各機關參加考積人員任本職等年終考積具有下列各款前嫌之一者取得同官等高一職等職任用資格一兩年列家等者 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10975 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10996.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
二 一年列家等 兩年列儀等者 前項所稱本職等年中考積 指當年一月至十二月任職期間均認同一職等 辦理之年中考積欲因留職停薪 辦理之另於考積 兩年列家等者 視為年中考積 一年列家等 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10997.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11013.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
一年列假等一年列疑等或兩年列疑等者視為臨終考積一年列疑等前項以外另於考積及以不同官職官等官等職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11013.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11015.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
提案委員 吳思瑤 陳培宇 范允 黃王威 吳宗憲 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11043.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11072.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
好 謝謝喔 請問各位委員我們對於我們委員吳世堯等五人所提的修正動議有沒有其他意見好 那沒有的話我們就依照修正動議通過那我們現在審查排序三第十二條有考試院提案委員王宏威等十八人提案委員吳佩義等二十人提案委員范瑩等十七人提案來 請問在場委員有沒有意見要補充好 王宏威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11074.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11091.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
主席各位委員我想這個第12條的修正其實應該就是源自於就是之前我們勞動部北區勞動分署謝怡榮他霸凌造成我們的公務人員死亡的這個案子所衍生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11095.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11120.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以在我們的這些可以記到兩次大過裡面就是我們在條文修正就是針對你在職場有關於有霸凌當然可能大家的文字不一樣譬如我們現在考試院的版本如果它嚴重甚至造成重大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11121.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11125.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
情節重大事實上或造成什麼身心創傷或死亡我的文字就是情節嚴重我想基本上我不會太追究或者堅持在文字上的Wording的使用主要是針對有關於有在職場霸凌的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11144.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11151.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那我們在這一次的修法裡面呢也把除了職場霸凌之外也把譬如說像是有性騷或跟騷而且也造成受害人身心的不法侵害這樣的情節重大者 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11164.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11189.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那裡面也包含我們最近所發生的酒駕或者是獨駕的這個事件那也把它列入那我剛才也看到應該也是我們這個權敘部把這個相關的這個文字做了一下整理我想待會我們主要看一下就是這個文字把它整合如果是符合我們修法的意旨跟原則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11191.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11194.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我個人會予以同意 以上 謝謝好 范委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11199.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11219.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我的12條版本也是因為就是其實社會知道大多數公務員是認真努力的那但是就是說少數有重大為師的人那社會也會有很多的批評所以我們如何能夠在獎懲的部分可以把這些大家有共識重大為師的公務員讓他可以被 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11222.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11244.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
適當的處置我想對維護整體認真工作的公務員的形象非常的重要跟社會的一個尊重我的版本就是把酒駕致死性侵害就是屬實還有嚴重性騷跟嚴重職場霸凌放入這部分就是我看到院版也有接受事實上就是說不管是新聞2013年林務局公務員酒駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11247.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11275.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
逃逸的部分還有我自己處理的陳情案就有警戒的管理階層的人他後來行政調查是性侵屬實可是因為在懲戒方面沒有條文可以處理最後受害者覺得沒有辦法就是只能讓他做某種程度的調職所以我們也看到這個法如果修法的話能夠讓大家感受到更能夠保障多數認真工作的公務員以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11279.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11307.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好 翁委員好 我看到那個考試院這邊提出的版本那我有幾個問題第一個就是說因為依考積法一次借兩大過免職的公務員那麼事實上他是不能夠在任對不對對不起 他可以在任對 他可以在任公務員 對不起那麼再次懲戒法的免除職務的公務員是不得在任是那你現在就是說你考積法的這個免職的追溯期效限是15年 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11308.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11320.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
但是在公務員懲戒法裡面的撤職是沒有時效的限制所以這個未來會不會出現一個不太公平的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11325.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11352.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
因為撤職的話撤職還是可以有在任因為他撤職還有一段期間不得任用他的撤職比考機法上的免職限制的更多他大法官把那個懲戒法案去做成那個撤職的時候他會同時宣告一定期間不得任用那考機法這邊的專案考機兩大過免職並沒有這樣的一個限制要看有沒有那個新機關願意用這個被一次計二大過免職的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11353.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11357.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以我們的那個時效才比陳介華那邊稍微短一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11359.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11386.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以基本上來說你們認為不會造成不公平的狀況還有另外一個問題就是說你們在這裡講到在第八項的懲處時效重新起算的規定裡面有個但書部分撤銷原因因為原懲處事由已經超過懲處權行使期間請問一下你們可不可以舉個例子來說明這是什麼樣的一個概念部分撤銷原因因為原懲處事由已經於懲處權行使期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11387.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11411.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我報告一下就是您說要舉個例子譬如說有一個人他已經超過10年以上那我們機關還是給他處分了那處分的結果他會尋譬如說保訓會行政法院最高刑去救濟那後來救濟結果他們說你這已經超過的追訴期間你怎麼還處分就被撤銷如果是屬於這種那當然就 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11412.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11433.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們要排除這種的我們目的是要排除這種就是說我處分你的時候早就預約了懲處期限那當然會被第三方的司法機關或保訓會幫你撤銷說你這個是超越了時間所以這不應該懲處他我們這是因為要有這個但書才能夠cover掉這個狀況是 跟您報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11434.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11452.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
然后还有最后一个就是说我刚刚在质询的时候其实有讲到就是有关于就是如果说是连续每一年可能都有列丙等那像这样的一个状况的话是不是也可以趁机在这一次的这个条文里面就可以处理譬如说在第12条的第一项里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11453.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11478.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
就是說連續譬如說五年內就五年期間然後連續有三次列平等的話就可以直接予以免職我跟委員報告一下因為我們第四條主要是要處理一次兩大過的那您剛剛提到的這個部分是不是容許我們未來在考計劃整個的review的時候再把這個部分放進去因為我知道這個部分在過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11481.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11503.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
幾年前的考卸法曾經有這樣訂但是後來也引起很多大家不同的討論聲音所以我們會比較建議說委員如果您可以支持的話是不是我們今天就先因為這個是配套上市保障法的那個職場霸凌那個的一個我們把它修得更大家執行上比較完整那委員您提的這個提示的這部分我們回去我們再 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11504.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11516.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那個將來是在烤雞碗第七條是 我們會再處理是 跟你報告烤雞碗第七條 那個連中烤雞那一塊那這邊處理的是專案烤雞隨時有重大功過 隨時要處理掉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11518.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11536.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好那我這樣同意這個局局部這邊的這個意見那麼可能之後我們是不是可以在這次修正動議之後做一個決議然後請他們去研析有關於就是每一年可能都有平等的這個決議然後要提相關的修法做個附帶決議就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11538.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11559.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那請問其他委員還有沒有意見要補充有有有好 吳委員詢問一下哇 這個我不知道講這是第幾項好多項第一項第二項第三項第四項等一下我看一下第四項第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11561.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11582.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
第5項你們是前項第7款但書人員經無罪判決確定嗎你們原來的條文是前項第7款經不起訴還起訴處分對不對這個差別說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11585.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11608.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為上次的那個審查會法務部有提出說因為這個第七款他有兩種不同情況一種是行政機關調查另外一種是檢查機關直接提起公訴了那兩種情況如果針對檢察官提起公訴那一塊屬於刑事案件到最後無罪判決確定我們就會把 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11609.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11635.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
因那一款被兩大購免職的那一部分撤銷至於行政機關調查他本來如果是有罪的話我們行政機關那一塊還是維持所以他這一次修改的只是把那個依照法務部那個意見把那個但書人人把它加進去就只有那個提取公訴那一塊而已那應該是OK啦應該是OK啦就參採法務部的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11636.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11652.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
其他的部分就是其实重点是在我们的几个样态处罚的几个样态烤鸡处理的几个样态酒驾毒驾性侵性骚跟骚然后霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11653.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11677.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
然後再加一個你們第12款就是一個比較general違反有關法令規定制嚴重損害政府公務人員生育等等我基本上是覺得應當都有含括幾位委員關切的部分所以我是個人是可以支持可以支持這個修正動議看看大家謝謝好那請問各位委員還有沒有意見要補充那機關這邊呢沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11755.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11764.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
好請宣讀修正動議3第12條除第5項修正為前項第7款但書人員經無罪判決確定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11773.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11801.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
應撤銷其一次計兩大過處分與同考試院提案條文 全讀完畢提案委員 王鴻薇 吳思瑤 陳培宇 翁曉琳 范雲 吳宗憲 全讀完畢好 謝謝好那請問各位委員我們是否就依據委員王鴻薇等六人所提修正動議通過好 大家都同意嗎好 那就依據修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11804.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11805.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那个附带决议好了吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11874.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11898.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
主席不好意思可以把握時間就是說詢問一下今天是不是就處理考積的第一案就是這個部分然後第二案就等一下我們就是用公聽會或什麼下會期再處理我們對 之後再處理也希望 請問一下主席我們有沒有可能應當開一下公聽會跟中央地方政府我們再來研究今天確定不會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11899.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11905.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
先沒有要處理好 那就是處理烤家我不會突襲的沒有 我在問一下而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12116.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12122.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
請醫事人員宣讀請問各位對附帶決議有無意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12145.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12161.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好 那沒有 就照案通過本案逐條審查進一處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決請問一下本案是否需交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12163.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12188.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
不用 不用 因為討論時 無召集委員中線出席說明附帶決議一項一併提交用會處理調次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員處理本日議程討論事項第二案作如下決議 另定期繼續審查本日議程所討論事項均已處理完畢本次會議到此 現在散會 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12404.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12404.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
优优独播剧场——YoYo Television Series Exclusive |