| IVOD_ID |
168929 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168929 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-22-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-29T11:12:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-29T11:26:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6301273cb2dfee841d903834ca75b94ac607106bc22f509418096c5e05de57c69b283f5c5a56e13d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:12:30 - 11:26:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：中央研究院、國家科學及技術委員會、數位發展部就「AI主權時代：學門建構與應用、研究應用倫理及數位透明度之配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【4月29日及30日二天一次會】） |
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來請吳麗華召委謝謝主席有請中研院國科會速發部三位副首長好 有請好 那個 |
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我是想說今天安排這個主題那我先問幾個問題大家也可以拿出手機如果有AI軟體可以試試看那我大概先問三個問題就是難度一顆星 兩顆星 三顆星這樣可以嗎好 第一個問題我先說為什麼我要這樣問因為在28年前 1998年 |
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我們有援助民主教育法的立法那麼到了2019年呢做了一次大的修法 |
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其中很重要的一個改變就是把實施的對象從過去的原住民學生把它變成全體國民就是因為我們覺得在台灣這個小小多山的國家我們發現呢其實我們對身邊周遭的原住民族群不是很認識很了解那推動以來呢其實 |
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也許有一些長足的進步但是我們還是有一些問題想要就教大家首先請教一下8月1日是什麼日這難度一顆好 |
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都不行原住民族日那第二题请教一下为什么会把8月1号定定为原住民族日也不行 |
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因為1994年的8月1號憲法增修條文把山包證明為原住民所以把這一天定為原住民族日是作為一個紀念日那第三條可能 |
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连各位的AI软体都没有办法找到答案因为我试过第三个问题就是要请教日本人来台湾最后一个进入的部落是哪一个部落有没有民主所的可以吗 |
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不好意思 因為我自己不是研究原住民族的我不太清楚這個事情好 所以我們的 |
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170.342 |
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全體國民的原教還是有一大段要努力的我想這個部分是我覺得蠻悲傷的真的蠻悲傷因為我們可能知道美國怎麼樣可能知道中國怎麼樣但是我們對身邊的這些原住民族群的文化歷史語言甚至是人可能有很多的不認識那我就直接回答這一題的答案因為AI絕對找不到 |
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是1933年接受招降的玉穗社玉穗社是布農族也就是說日本人最後一個收服的其實是布農族而且是接受招降因為打不下來那玉穗在哪裡呢就是前幾年非常有名有一條小小的玉穗溪 |
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竟然把明霸克路橋沖斷了南橫段也就是現在高雄桃園那個地方那這個地方其實也有一位很有名的文學作家他是誰呢他叫以前我們還不能夠原住民族名登記的時候他叫王興明老師他是國小老師 |
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現在已經過世但是他恢復族名呢叫做Husluman VavaHusluman Vava他做了有一個著作叫玉山魂這本著作呢在2007年得到台灣文學獎長篇小說的經典獎裡面有一段話 |
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如果你的出現是認為要幫助我教育我那麼請你回去如果你將把我的經驗看成是你生存的一部分那麼或許我們可以一起努力那為什麼我要特別的講出這段話因為在4月13日的深夜有一個台東大學布農族的教授 |
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308.82 |
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他叫海素巴拉拉比他是台東大學的教授他忍了很久趁著一個深夜他發文而且叫做陳清文他的標題叫陳清文我們很難過的是因為他發現有一本出版的專書他標榜叫台灣原住民族知識論而且還不標叫做去殖民批判 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
345.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
但是收錄的這一篇文章在第一頁就提到有關於他 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
347.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
而且作者是筆者是這麼寫的他說他進行填調的時候進行了一次深具啟發性的訪談然後用一個當地的布農族人對另外一位這位學者教授的批判說呢他的知識都是從書上看的而且說他談的那些主居地他沒有去過 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
393.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
結果原來這個深具啟發性的訪談搞了老半天竟然是他在他布農族乾媽的庭院的晚上輕鬆聊天聽那個人講的話他就把他放在他的學術專做裡面各位都是學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
396.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
為什麼沒有原住民學者發聲而是這個受害人當事人他忍了很久用半夜發聲因為他們都很清楚在學術界自己面對什麼樣的困境他們也要常常接受審查所以他們不敢發聲所以我特別難過因為這個很明顯我在民國86年寫碩士論文 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
426.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個道理就已經很清楚了研究倫理我們要保護要去識別化 沒有也沒有做事實查證也沒有做橫評報導甚至是錯誤的詮釋我們非常的難過所以在這個部分我其實今天要特別談這些就是要談 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
454.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
463.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們為什麼那麼重視原住民的主權AI為什麼我們不斷的談我們原住民族也要成為一個學門 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
465.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為人類學家他本來是在學習在地者如何感受但是我們沒有想到把這種輕鬆聊天的八卦經常有很多學者到我們原住民部落我們也會在那邊講八卦輕鬆的聊天講笑話結果把它寫進去傷害了那位niho而且那位niho他很聰明喔niho一個部落可能有20個niho |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
495.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
514.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
但是這個受害者全名就那麼一個 我們知道是誰這個是一個毀人聲譽 毀了自己的聲譽我想也毀了中研院民主所的聲譽犯了一個非常低級的錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
531.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以在這個部分其實就暴露了我們長期以來我們在談的就是仲裁者的優越視野不自覺地用西方學術霸權去看待這些田野的資料把原住民視為顯微鏡下的客體 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
533.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
553.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
而且知識生產的權力不對等因為學者未有編排篩選定調田野資料甚至詮釋的生殺大絕而且是一種慈善的迷思好像為族群發聲一廂情願卻忽略了可能導致汙名化的一個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
555.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
583.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以我今天特别站在这里因为如果我不发声大家也不好意思发声所以我希望今天我们的中研院您是负责研究的伦理那我们的这个国科会是负责学门的建立那么速发部呢主导未来这个AI语料库的建制所以特别邀请三个部会来正视这个问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
584.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
595.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
以前的人類學是重視個人的知情同意沒有做到但是各位應該很清楚2005年的原基法出來了之後把 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
596.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
622.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
個人的同意拉到集體的同意所以原基法寫得很清楚21條政府或私人如果要去做學術研究要取得原住民族或部落同意參與原住民得分享相關利益我要跟各位講曠業法很多的法都已經在踐行諮商同意我們對學者學術界非常尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
624.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
642.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
還沒有這樣強烈的要求但是我們也很了解歐盟他有一個所謂的taking care的計畫所以我想問一下中研院未來像民族所的博物館可以開放讓這些原住民的學者一起申請合作研究部落文物嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
644.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
668.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
有了中英民族所一直有辦的工作展的那個展示就是過去收集那些文物然後跟回到部落去再重新做展示現在已經辦到第六屆了所以我們就長期的跟而且我們還有原住民部落的講座一些研究講座都有還有補助研究民的那個原住民族的研究生我們都長期的補助的計畫所以這是我們一直在執行在做的那我們也擴展希望在這方面能夠更擴大那個實作的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
670.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
696.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
您說的這些我都了解但是我覺得我舉個例子來講像我們的祖靈柱某個部落因為大家談嘛要文物返鄉嘛但是都做半套啦可能第一次的文物返鄉是來一個什麼呢結婚讓這個祖靈柱跟你們結婚第二次的時候是結親結伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
700.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
725.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
其實在原住民來看很客氣但是我們不是不知道我們也了解那個不是尊嚴平等對待的做法所以我想這個部分剛才講的我都了解但是我們是希望平等共同的一同的來分享利益然後能夠做到FPIC自由事前之前同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
726.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
754.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
这个已经是联合国全世界一个很普遍的标准我希望我们的学术界能够共同的来做所以我今天其实来最主要就是说为什么我们需要原住民族的研究学门因为原住民族研究不等于原住民做出来的研究大家都可以做而且原住民族研究的方法论跟研究伦理其实是没有办法在目前任何学门没有办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
755.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
756.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
有這樣的規範去含納 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
759.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
788.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以它是一个很独特的所以我们一直强调我们希望成为一个正式的学门然后国家常态性的科研分类具有正式的学术地位长期稳定的基础研究的资金投入然后透过严格的同侪审查产生客观正确可用于AI训练的系统性知识提供AI这个大水库干净的水源因为我们不希望AI复制歧视复制错误 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
789.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
808.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
这个是我们今天为什么特别要在这边来请我们的中研院 请国科会 请书发部我们是不是共同的来成立一个平台就我刚才所谈的学门还有关于在我们建制AI语料库的时候原住民不能被边缘化 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
809.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
822.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們很多的乾淨的資料水庫正確的我希望都能夠把它建置起來那不曉得這個部分有沒有辦法三個月內給我你們的一個平台討論的一個成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
826.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
849.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好,我們三個願意提供報告,謝謝可以,就是關於學門建制跟未來這個AI,主權AI的一個建制只要提供我預計要怎麼做,要怎麼投入資源經費,這樣可以嗎好,謝謝,那謝謝主席好,謝謝吳麗華教委,好,三位請回 |