| IVOD_ID |
16890 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16890 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-27T08:30:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-27T12:10:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:39:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcf14b58179120353a819ba3698dbd896e112bf0b47f4e58e365ae4cefdedbccc35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查
（ㄧ）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員羅智強等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、繼續併案審查（一）委員傅崐萁等25人、（二）委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案。
【8月27日及28日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:59 - 12:10:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1923.659 |
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1947.79 |
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報告委員會出席委員6人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開會進行報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年8月13日星期三上午98分至9時53分8月14日星期四上午9時至12時32分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1949.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1965.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
地点本院红楼302会议室出席委员黄国昌委员等11人列席委员苏清泉委员等8人列席官员8月13日司法院副秘书长王梅英等人8月14日考试院秘书长刘建兴等人主席吴昭吉委员中线 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1966.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1973.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
8月13日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項1繼續並案審查委員羅志強等25人委員謝依鳳等16人分別擬據刑事訴訟法第116條之2條文修正草案案2繼續並案審查司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1982.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2001.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
行政院含情審議刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等六案決議一刑事訴訟法第116條之二條文修正草案等二案進行逐條審查第116條之二趙委員羅志強等25人提案通過第二刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等六案進行逐條審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2002.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2026.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第七十條之一不予修正維持現行條文第205條之二照司法院行政院提案通過增訂第205條之三及205條之四均照司法院行政院提案之以案行政院版通過以上二案均審查完略拟據審查報告提請院會公決不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳釗琪委員中線出席說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2027.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2045.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
調次引述條文部分文字及法字用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理8月14日報告事項邀請全區部部長行政院人事行政總處人事長中央選舉委員會主任委員法務部廉政署署長公務人員保障及培訓委員會率所屬相關單位列席就 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2046.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2062.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
政務人員應否及如何遵守行政重力原則行政機關於選舉罷免期間應為如何之宣導與落實進行專題報告並備諮詢決定報告及詢答完畢討論事項一 並按審查考試院行情審議公務人員考記法第十二條條文修正草案等五案 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2063.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2091.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
二 併案審查委員傅坤祺等25人 委員郭玉琴等18人分別擬據 刑事訴訟法第71條及第175條條文修正草案案本日會議有委員黃國昌等12人提出質詢 委員吳佩奕 黃宏威提出書面質詢決議一 報告及詢討完畢二 第一案及第二案均定 均令定期繼續審查三 委員執行時 要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者 請相關機關競訴 送交個別委員及本會 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2095.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2121.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
請問各位對於上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定我們介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員首先我們介紹道場委員黃國昌委員 羅志強委員還有王逸川委員接著我們介紹應邀列席官員法務部鄭明謙部長黃謀信次長司法院王梅英副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2124.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2149.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
其餘位及介紹列席代表 請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄 本次會議排定兩天一次會首日議程所列 討論事項兩案 分別為第一案 並案審查台灣民眾黨團 凝聚中華民國刑法部分修正條文等八案第二案 繼續並案審查委員傅坤祺等25人 委員郭育群等18人分別凝聚刑事訴訟法第71條及第175條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2153.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2174.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
程序一例先進行第一案提案說明及報告我們現在先進行完提案說明 每位時間為三分鐘我們首先請民眾黨黨團代表黃國昌委員進行提案說明提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2182.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2195.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝召委 治法法治委員會的各位委員以及列席的行政官員台灣民眾黨黨團在去年我們看到憲法法庭在9月30 20號做成113年憲判制第8號判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2199.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2227.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
不當的限縮了立法形成的空間看到一群大法官自居為立法者針對在什麼樣子的情況之下才能夠宣判死刑附加法律所沒有的要件自己恣意的在憲法法院的判決當中增加了一堆舉世無雙全世界都看不到的法律要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2228.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2249.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
對於司法院的大法官這種違法濫權的行為後續未來要怎麼樣追究相關的責任是另外一回事但更重要的事情是當死刑被宣告的範圍遭到不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2250.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2265.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
無止境的限縮實質上面等同於幾乎不可能再出現這樣的狀況的時候社會上面所關心的 所期待的是無期徒刑在實際上面運作的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2266.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2286.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
無期突襲的宣告在我國司法實務上過去數十年它只存在於紙上是最典型所謂的paper law從來沒有在具體的實務上面被踐行我們以102年到111年的數據來當作一個實際觀察的指標會發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2293.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2299.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
102年到111年受無期徒刑宣告的假釋出獄人數高達657個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2303.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2326.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有657個人在這段期間當中他受的是無期徒刑的宣告但是他被假釋了而假釋平均在監執行的時間只有17.9年等於是這一個無期徒刑的宣告形同句文 毫無任何實質的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2327.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2353.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
不僅不是無期徒刑甚至連無期徒刑假釋法定最低的門檻通通都沒有達到嚴重的衝擊了人民對於公平正義實踐的信心當然也會影響到我國的刑事司法制度是不是能夠具體發揮制度本來應該有的功能所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2354.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2377.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團我們特別提案有兩個修正的動點第一個無期徒刑一般的假釋門檻從25年再提升為30年第二個更重要的事情是可以由法院宣告無期徒刑不得假釋我必須要說明的是我國的假釋制度長期以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2379.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2405.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
把這麼重要的權利攸關一半以上的刑期到底要不要執行也就是經過檢察官起訴法院三審判刑定议最後所定的刑期竟然有超過一半以上的刑期是由不具中立性的行政官員所來決定的導致過去在所謂的黑箱假釋的制度當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2406.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2424.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
出現了非常多上下其手的弊案甚至有立法委員大剌剌的把手伸到有關於假釋個案當中引發了非常多的醜聞跟弊案我相信當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2426.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2445.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
特徵組還在的時候在辦六十一在辦特他六十一的時候在立法院裡面所留下來醜陋的歷史紀錄斑斑可考因此針對有關於在無期徒刑如果認為有必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2446.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2471.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不可以給他假釋的話這個權限當然應該要收歸由法院的法官具體的來加以執行事實上整個假釋的制度都必須要全盤徹底的檢討把這麼重要的權利一半以上的刑期到底要不要執行交給行政官員來加以決定是一件荒謬的事情但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2473.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2487.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
推動改革我們一步一步來針對有關於增加不得假釋的無期徒刑這種刑法種類本來就是法官在具體個案量刑的時候他可以斟酌的事項也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2488.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2506.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
當法官受到我們憲法法庭的判決不合理的拘束沒有辦法透過一字決來達成死刑的判決的時候這個時候他當然退而求其次可以選擇宣告不得假釋的無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2507.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2519.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個是司法權在運作的時候本質上所因然那因此在制度的設計上我們認為無期徒刑到底可不可以假釋有沒有必要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2520.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2543.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
本來所應該考慮的刑期當中為了要去救濟我們目前死刑的宣告被憲法法庭不當的限縮在真假不得假式的無期徒刑的時候讓法官在具體的個案當中能夠選擇來加以宣告我相信這個是全體國人大家所共同期待的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2544.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2562.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
當然到今天為止在去年大聲的說年底以前我們一定會提出修正草案會推動修法的法務部包括行政院到今天本司法法制委員會要審法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2563.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2591.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
行政院的版本根本沒有送來行政院的版本根本沒有送來這裡面誰怠惰 誰失職 誰講話不算話我相信今天在座的法務部部長鄭明謙自己心裡非常的清楚對社會做過什麼宣告實際上面做出來的效果是什麼行政院很忙嗎 在忙什麼忙大罷免大成功嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2592.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2618.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
行政院院長率著閣員下鄉去助攻罷免在野黨的立委破壞台灣的民主制度結果正式不幹跟社會承諾過的全民這麼關注的法案到今天竟然連行政院的版本都沒有提出來令人不僅遺憾而且我相信非常多的人民是感到憤怒的 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2620.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2645.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好 謝謝黃委員 那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行提案說明有需要 要做提案說明 不用那我麻煩羅委員你代理主席一下我先提案說明等一下 先幫我 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2656.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2684.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
有請吳宗憲委員提案說明今天我提案說明的部分主要就是109年4月以來我們已經有超過5年沒有實行定驗的判決再加上113年憲判8號其實大法官認為說實行核憲但是他卻設下了八大關卡這八大關卡已經讓我國實行要判決確定的話已經是不可能的事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2685.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2707.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那裡面有一些條件譬如說什麼叫做最嚴重之罪或者是說要求各級法院的法官要一致決這個東西其實都是在實務上面幾乎不可能達到更何況我國我國是世界上唯一一個要求死刑要有法事實審議及法律審法官都要一致決才能判死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2708.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2724.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
的國家所以這樣子的修法這樣子的憲法判決其實是造成了實務上面真正的實質廢食不管今天這些政客的嘴巴或者是一些有偏頗立場的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2725.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2740.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
學者怎麼說那事實上我想要告訴各位告訴國人就是我們目前國家已經實質的廢除死刑那我們再看一下其實斯多獎女教師遭殺害的案子她凶嫌五度判死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2741.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2766.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但是在宪判8号出来之后他最后就逃死了无期徒刑定议那马来西亚女大生性侵杀害案件呢这被告也是从一审到更一审都认为他没有教化可能性结果呢今年4月最高法院还是认为他有教化可能性而撤销发回在审我想最后最高的几率应该还是判无期徒刑因为这些法官应该是很懂现在我们的整个政治的风向 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2766.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2781.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那從防務部的資料來看以及剛剛黃委員有提到其實我國有657名無期徒刑的受刑人在2013年到2022年獲准假釋而他們平均服刑的期間只有17.9年 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2783.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2807.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
也就是說他雖然判無期徒刑但是他只服刑17.9年他就出獄了他可能比許多有期徒刑的要服20年以上都還關得少所以無期徒刑在我國根本就變成有期徒刑或是變成一些有心人士伸手介入假釋的何準與否的一個很大的問題點那最糟糕的是最近10年撤銷假釋人數有18407人 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2811.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2836.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
故意犯罪占57%也就是说假释出来的人有将近六成会再犯这个是不是大家到底有没有注意到这个问题所以我希望把无期徒刑分为三级那第一级就是终身监禁不得假释第二级是要服刑40年才可以申请假释第三级无期徒刑是维持现行法是25年才可以假释那为什么我会用40年 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2837.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2855.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
的這個概念其實我是比對於我國行法立法的時候是在民國23年那當時呢中華民國的人民的平均歲數大概是40幾歲那所以你18歲成年到你40歲左右大概是有大概有22年的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2858.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2884.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
平均余命但是現在的國人他的壽命到80歲了也就是說他18歲到80歲其實他有62年的平均余命這個是不是我們應該去思考我國無期徒刑假釋的時間或是有期徒刑的上限應該要拉長這是科學的數據這不是說我們想數字多少就多少我想我提出這個要求並不是說我改變了知識死刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2885.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2909.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
立場因為現行的審判15死刑絕對是名存實亡了那我們政府不思考怎麼去補救這個死刑跟現行無期徒刑的差距或是原本無期徒刑到死刑無期徒刑25年就可以假釋但是他下一關就是死刑中間有一個太大的空白完全沒有人去理會那這個在司法實務上面都是一個大問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2909.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2932.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我既然我一直大聲疾呼這個問題那法務部也說去年也說要提出修正的草案但是我們也都沒有看到所以我想大家都不行動那我自己只好雞婆一點自己攬下來做我想過往到現在我們一直發現一件事情執政黨整天在鬥爭在做他在野黨時候在做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2933.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2952.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
現在變成在野黨的委員心疼這個國家然後拼命在做執政黨該做的事情但是我們還是必須要去做我覺得就是這些對於這些人神共憤天理難容的被告既然不能判死那就把他關到死我覺得這是全國人民心中應該幾乎一致的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2953.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2967.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我再說一次這些人神共憤天理難容的殺人犯既然你法官不敢判他死刑那你至少把他關到死永久跟社會隔離這也不是就當年死刑判決後面一定會加上一句說法就是永久與社會隔絕不是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2968.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2996.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以这个才是对国家有利最后再提到还有一个修正的重点是合并刑度的修正我国目前合并因执行刑最高30年也就是说你不管干了多少坏事多少条加起来你犯了200条300条加起来最高只能30年那这个跟我们平均余命来比其实是不对的也就是说今天有可能一个状况是你犯越多结果你判得越轻你的折扣越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2997.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3008.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你变成说你犯罪你伤害越多人你到最后就像拿百货公司会员卡一样你的打折就打越多这个在现行也应该是不被接受的所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3010.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3034.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
最後我想就是政府沒有能力使被害人不被殺死但卻有能力讓被告不被判死這個我想不是社會大眾能夠接受的我想這次修法我只有一個目標就是我希望第一個無期徒刑分級第二個就是合併因執行從30年提高到40年我們要讓行為人對他所做的犯罪跟所受到的刑罰能夠相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3035.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3061.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
要罪行要相當這樣的判決才能符合期待讓法律能夠真正落實公平正義我們現在請羅志祥做提案說明好 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3062.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3078.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
近年來我們經常看到家庭暴力跟虐童案件已經引發社會的高度的關切那根據內政部統計資料過去10年有261位兒童跟少年是遭肆虐死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3079.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3097.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這是何其讓大家覺得沉痛的一個數字那其中屬父母照顧者等家庭成員不當對待致死是235人然後依契約或職務對兒少有照顧義務之人不當對待致死就是26人 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3098.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3120.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以在朝野共識之下我們在113年三讀通過增加對虐童案件的刑罰力度但事實上提高刑度還不足以有效遏止這類事件的發生因為就刑法286條司法15來看現在其實有少用化跟輕刑化的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3121.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3147.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那麼第一個刑法第286條它其實並不是一個常被使用的條文在2015年到2024年的過去十年裡面以地方法院審理來說甚至有兩年是一件違反刑法286條的裁判都沒有那平均一年只有5.7件所以我這邊主張真烈不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3150.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3170.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
對現行假釋制度影響是相當有限那也要明確說這10年當中涉犯刑法286條以地方法院的判決來說也只有一件被判無期徒刑那10年98件的罪次裡面判5年以下有期徒刑的只有18件佔比不到兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3171.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3186.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
反觀一年以下有53件占比五成四當然不是說每一件重大虐待兒童或少年有些可能只是輕傷可是從刑度來說跟社會期待是有相當大的差距所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3186.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3207.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
虽然我们有将刑法286条刑度提高但是刚刚提出的数据其实还没有纳入修法后的裁判判决情形所以因此如果刑法286条继续轻判那又缺乏针对肆虐者假释的限制规定的话那虐童者可能提前获得假释 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3208.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3228.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
也可能造成施虐者輕視司法正義也讓提高刑罰的效果大打折扣所以這邊我是建議為了有效保護兒童的身心安全應該要立法限縮虐童犯罪假釋之適用來確保司法公正跟社會安全以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3230.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3238.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好 謝謝 接著我們進行機關報告我們每位發言時間三分鐘我們先請法務部部長 政部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3244.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3262.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
主席各位委員女士先生今天奉要列席並代表本部報告並備諮詢之報告如下那有關病案審查刑法修正假釋其無期徒刑加重減輕等相關規定部分感謝各位委員長期對這個議題的關心跟重視本部贊同提案委員的修法目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3263.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3291.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
尊重大院立法政策的決定本部支持針對特殊暴力犯罪類型的重刑犯應該修正明定終身監禁的一個條款共同遏止不法維護社會正義本部已經理據刑法假釋相關修正查案分別在去年10月11月函請行政院審查行政院召開四次的審查會議修正重點包括故意殺人或殺人未遂的行為侵害生命法義惡性中大如果經法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3292.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3307.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
判處無期徒刑及有期徒刑超過十年刑法將證定不得假釋條款花費刑法所應據的功能維護社會正義修正草原也將明定無期徒刑受刑人一旦被撤下假釋應執行無期徒刑而不是有期徒刑的固定殘刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3309.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3325.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
本部已經履具刑法施行法查案明對規範新舊法適用的依據本部將根據推動修法在行政院院會通過並完成與司法院會行後將進行訴訟大院審議也希望能獲得各位委員的支持有關部分委員版本規要 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3326.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3348.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
由法院宣告不得假釋的條款建立在刑事實體法程序法明定審酌標準訴訟程序及救濟途徑的配套新化私刑法也需要明定假釋後假釋修法後新舊法適用的準據實務才能夠有落實執行避免法律適用的分歧 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3348.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3378.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
如果採取無期徒刑分期制度刑法分責及刑事特別法可能需要全面的盤點修正法定型較能夠實現委員的提案目的有關本部對各位委員版本及刑法執行實務操作的關聯等法制意見請各位委員參考本部的書面意見最後對刑事訴訟法第七十一條第一百七十五條條文修正查案部分請參考一四年八月四日本部書面的報告以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3382.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3385.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好那我們下一位請王副秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3394.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3410.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好 主席各位委員各位先生大家早安 大家好今天貴委員會並案審查及繼續並案審查刑法刑事訴訟法等案本院奉邀列席報告那次報告如下敬請指教第一個關於台灣民眾黨黨團委員需 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3413.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3428.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
預爭等十八人所分別擬聚的中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案草案第三三條之一呢對於被告或是受刑人呢影響頗巨那以否增訂相關的適用要件提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3430.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3454.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
規範的明確性還有預見的可能性這見請審酌另外有沒有在修正刑法64條那個必要議請再酌第二點關於委員吳宗憲等20人所擬聚的中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案草案規劃將無期徒刑區分成一級無期徒刑二級無期徒刑及三級無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3455.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3474.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
但是沒有將這三個刑種在刑法分則還有個刑事特別法一併盤點修正在罪刑法定原則下恐身一役且該三個刑種在可否假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3476.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3499.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
還有假設條件上差距甚大那對於被告跟受刑人的影響都非常深遠的所以呢以否要增訂相關的適用要件提升規範的明確性還有預見的可能性也漸行審酌那有79條之一第五項的適用結果無期徒刑撤銷假釋之後他必須執行的殘餘刑期 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3501.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3528.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
甚至可能短於有期徒刑撤銷假釋之後需執行的殘餘刑期那有無輕重失衡之餘這也亦請斟酌那關於個案其餘的意見請參閱本院在今天還有在114年8月14號所提出的書面報告以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3529.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3535.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好 謝謝 那其一提出書面報告的機關有沒有需要口頭補充沒有的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3540.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3566.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答由於詢答後我們要接續進行法案的審查所以今天的時間我們會控比較緊這邊跟各位委員先致歉本會委員詢答時間為六分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為四分鐘不再延長上午十點三分截止發言登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3567.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3585.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們現在先請第一位黃國昌委員發言好 謝謝主席麻煩有請法務部部長 司法院副秘書長麻煩部長副秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3593.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3611.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
委員早安好 兩位早台大法學院閻君安教授針對民進黨所發動的大惡霸他特別從憲政的觀點寫了一篇令人省思的文章 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3612.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3633.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
他說這場憑空發動的無差別大罷免就是一場耍法術 走歪路的趨近解散國會人民的選擇做出來了 嚴絕恩教授主張這個時候不但卓院長應該要辭職下台整個內閣都應該打掉重練來 請教部長 贊不贊成這是嚴教授的意見你贊不贊成我們尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3640.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3667.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
你個人讚不讚成我不講個人意見你不講個人意見來看一下你有遞辭職信嗎這部分我不需要在這邊做一個你不需要在這邊說明所以你的意思是什麼部長有沒有遞辭職信有沒有展現風骨不需要跟國會說明現在關這麼大這個內閣要不要改組那這個是現在我不是問內閣要不要改組現在我是問你有沒有遞辭職信 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3669.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3672.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
你有沒有第十支線你居功絕尾 你有沒有第十支線 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3674.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3699.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有還是沒有這個為什麼要遞辭職信那你自己覺得嘛你為什麼要遞辭職信嘛學者主張整個內閣都要打掉重練你很有信心啊覺得你為什麼要遞辭職信你說的沒有錯啊你放心啊你居功絕尾啦不會要你辭職啦一定留任你的啦你這麼好用怎麼會要你遞辭職信呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3700.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3721.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
對不對 這麼好用怎麼會要你遞辭職信呢公在黨國啊對民進黨貢獻非常的大怎麼會要你遞辭職信 放心啊你的官位啊 非常的穩啊跟著黨走 依照黨的意志司法怎麼搞爛 都沒有關係你不要學那個 那個好 來 再來這些語調啦接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3722.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3737.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我用什麼語調給你質詢喔不是你在這邊可以說三道四的啦什麼叫做我不要學用什麼語調你什麼態度啊你什麼態度啊今天是你在背詢還是我在背詢啊在國會這麼囂張喔這麼囂張喔這個內閣有在反省嗎有在檢討嗎部長在這裡講話這麼囂張喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3753.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3764.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
來 爆發了大綠能弊案小英男孩被抓了那當然 郭志輝說啊後面還有更大尾的要不要約談郭志輝 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3768.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3788.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個證據當然也就辦到哪裡我完全尊重台北地檢署的偵查的一個計畫台北地檢署的偵查進度由誰決定的我不能去干涉指導 指導是 台北地檢署的偵查進度由誰決定的這由台北地檢署的偵查團隊在決定偵查團隊嘛 好是由承辦檢察官還是由檢察長來決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3790.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3806.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這我不清楚這你不清楚 奇怪了因為我不會指導介入干涉所以嘛 你要看具體個案上面到底要聽陳辦檢察官的還是聽檢察長的為什麼問你這個問題 這很重要啊這會涉及到什麼上級有沒有指導下級嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3807.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3832.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這很重要啊 所以我才問你啊從法務部的立場 從規範的觀點應該要聽誰的 聽懲辦檢察官的 還是聽檢察長的這個偵查團體檢查議題嘛 本來就是一個偵查團隊嘛是 好 你是不是知道這個案子 去年就要動了這個案件本來就是在鎮場你是不是知道這個案子去年就要動了這個我不清楚這你不清楚 那我現在跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3833.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3860.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我在這邊直接公開檢舉啦讓你們回去查啦這個案子去年就要動啦是誰叫懲辦檢察官不要動啦部長應該也不知道王俊麗叫懲辦檢察官不要動啊王俊麗叫懲辦檢察官不要動啊怎麼會搞到823以後才開始動這個案子整整押了一年欸這個案子押一年你知不知道你也不知道嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3861.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3874 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
在黑箱裡面的作業用檢查一體來遮掩一堆案子能壓就壓 能拖就拖 能混就混配合著政治在辦案 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3875.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3899.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
還有臉在這邊講尊重檢察官的偵辦沒有關係啊我在這邊講話我負責嘛承辦檢察官去年要動王俊麗說不要動拖到823以後才動拖到823以後才動就像郭志輝講的啦大圍跑掉了啦大圍跑掉了啦順便去了解一下拖了這麼久有沒有洩密的問題接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3902.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3924.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
避免執政者以人事控制個案2017年司改國是會議決議的內容民進黨秘書長憑什麼喬司法人事啊民進黨秘書長可以喬司法人事嗎這個就是所謂的什麼司法獨立檢察官獨立嗎王俊麗現在北檢啊當紅檢察官啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3927.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3951.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
結果他當上調查局局長竟然是在他桃園地檢署任內他所偵辦貪污犯的犯罪嫌疑人鄭文燦去幫他喬的這個事情也太荒謬了吧這個事情也太荒謬了吧部長一直在這邊說尊重檢察官司法獨立檢察官獨立獨立在哪裡獨立在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3954.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3970.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
一個犯罪嫌疑人王俊麗是檢察長負責偵辦這個案件最後還牽結結果王俊麗當上調查局局長是鄭文燦去喬的部長這個符合2017年思考國事會議決議的內容嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3976.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3989.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個怎麼樣這個怎麼那個案往的這一件高檢也是在偵查中了嘛對啊 所以要拖多久反正以拖待變嘛在這邊受到社會質疑的時候我們有在調查了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3990.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4015.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
要調查到什麼時候 不知道要調查多久 不知道相關的案子啊 慶祝難輸啊慶祝難輸啊三年前這個國會 上一屆的國會在調查淨電勢必案的時候一模一樣的論調啦司法檢調在調查了啦調查什麼現在案子在北檢檢察官手上啊我公開在國會講過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4017.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4042.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
人家調查員要動檢察官說不准動通通不准動這樣的司法偵辦有獨立性有公信力看著顏色在辦案而已啦抓小放大啦能拖就拖 能混就混再來看這些被爆料出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4044.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4071.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
臨時要很大他關說的司法人士一件一件全部符合客觀事實上一次廉政署的副署長在這邊的時候我就問他問他說請託關桌人士要不要進行廉政登錄他給我的回答是要要進行廉政登錄我後來去文法務部請教有做廉政登錄嗎你們有回文給我有做廉政登錄嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4072.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4079.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
有嗎沒有登錄依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果所以依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果對不起喔第一個你已經確認沒登錄了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4091.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4106.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
第二個 我現在問你嘛沒有登錄應該產生什麼法律效果嗎這麼簡單的問題都不敢回答喔這個要尊重 這個還沒有調查完我怎麼去回答個案的問題呢奇怪了 公務人員廉政倫理規範是行政調查還是刑事調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4108.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4132.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
你當一個部長 連行政調查跟刑事調查都搞不清楚喔拜託 不要在這邊講空話 形成並行啦行政調查是一回事 司法調查是一回事你怎麼當一個法務部部長 連這麼基本的ABC都搞不清楚啊那我就問你嘛 有關於廉政倫理是行政調查還是刑事調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4133.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4157.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
是行政調查還是刑事調查我已經跟委員答覆了就是這個沒有請託關稅的登錄所以下一個問題違反公務人員的廉政倫理規範是行政事項還是刑事事項是行政事項還是刑事事項不敢回答喔法學的ABC不敢回答喔這就是行政事項啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4159.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4181.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
行政事項你們法務部現在做什麼全部推給刑事調查哇 真好用欸真便利欸刑事調查現在變成了你們遇到廉政倫理規範行政該處理的車修部啦動都不用動喔可以這樣嗎可以這樣嗎可以這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4189.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4214.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
你現在在等到時間 看著表 看時間拖過去沒有是不是還笑得出來 看著表 哇我時間終於混過去啦我在上面問問題 我就是不回答 看你要怎麼辦來 我們接下來繼續往下看思改國事會議 會議的結論檢審會要不要加入外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4215.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4239.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個我反對這個你反對喔所以你個人的意志超越了思改國事會議的決議嘛非常的有擔當啊現在我們賴清德任命的法務部部長一個人大聲的起呼說我反對檢察官人事委員會有外部委員難怪嘛難怪思改國事會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4240.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4262.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
不僅僅是放天燈 大敗敗現在是民進黨政府任命的法務部部長直接宣布司改國事會議歸司改國事會議的找一堆學者專家來大家來共同討論的結論我法務部部長鄭明謙我就是反對 真厲害 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4264.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4270.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那這樣子我要把司改國事會議全部丟到垃圾桶去就好了嘛用個人的一個意志來凌駕司改國事會議的決議來看一下齁 來來來全中華民國通通都不懂 只有你鄭明謙一個人懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4287.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4292.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎來看一下 只有你一個人懂嗎司法改革國是會議第三組分組會議 增開會議決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4304.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4329.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
檢查人事制度的民主化為使檢查人事制度符合民主問責並回應多元價值法務部檢察官人事審議委員應比照司法院法官人事審議委員會規定加入外部委員來 有請司法院副秘書長法官人事審議委員會有沒有外部委員有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4330.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4340.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
司改國事會議的決議對司法院而言現在算什麼 算垃圾是不是司改國事會議的決議對司法院而言到底還算不算個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4342.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4353.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
到底還算不算個東西你站在你旁邊的法務部長很傲慢啦我部長反對啦私下國事會議開什麼不好意思齁我沒有請教你不要搶人家的麥克風那個法務部你那個聽名權跟伙覺權還有沒有那個審議權 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4360.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4385.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
一樣一樣來啦你不能這樣講啦我只有問你一件事情嘛私改國事會議的決議那個司法院的是不是有提名權跟審議權有沒有否決權嘛你今天在這邊在國會公然講我反對私改國事會議的決議我現在在請教司法院副秘書長你有夠沒禮貌的沒有我同意 沒有主席同意自己站在旁邊麥克風就搶來講喔我現在在請教司法院的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4387.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4414.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
寧願你現在當法務部部長在國會裡面愛幹嘛就幹嘛喔我有請你回答嗎我有請你回答嗎現在法務部部長是怎麼樣全國檢調在我手上誰敢對我怎麼樣這麼囂張喔你在國會殿堂就這麼囂張喔走出這個地方來請司法院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4415.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4434.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
來 斯卡國際會議的決議對於現在的司法院而言算什麼你可以報告委員就是司法院就我們所主管的這些那個法案還有政策呢我們還是會本於我們主管那個機關就是來審議的對啊 你還是沒有回答我問題啊斯卡國際會議的決議對司法院算什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4436.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4450.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
法務部部長表明得很清楚啦思改國際會議的決議對我現任賴清德所任命的鄭明謙根本是空氣啊一點都不重要啦我鄭明謙說了算啦因為我現在當法務部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4453.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4470.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
讓大家所有參與史改國式會議全國的學者專家所有的外部委員大家聽清楚以後民進黨要召開任何的國式會議不要再相信民進黨了找來有什麼用花了納稅人大筆的銀子 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4472.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4483.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
學者專家做了決議我就沒有要遵守嘛重點那個是一個民主化的問題嘛現在是檢察官民主化的問題嘛那現在已經是完全檢察官票選的民主化的問題了什麼時候司法法制委員會的規矩變這樣現在沒有請他上來回答的人可以自己上來搶麥克風喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4499.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4523.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
什麼時候受到法治委員會的規矩變這樣我有說錯嗎世界國事會議的決議我白紙黑字都貼在這邊這不是我黃國昌一個人講的這是第三分組第一次增開會議的決議法官人是審議委員會法官人家都有外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4525.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4545.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
司改國制會議做這樣的決議司法院也遵守但我們現在的法務部很厲害太上皇機關我不遵守就是不遵守你個人反對沒有關係你個人反對你繼續反對修法到底會過不會過是立法院決定不是你鄭明謙一個人決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4550.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4555.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好 謝謝 下一位我們麻煩羅委員來代理主席請吳宗憲委員我們請部長還有副秘書長部長 副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4579.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4600.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
委員好先請教部長我們上一次有提到就是有一位性侵性侵的受刑人他保外就醫然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性結果後來我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4601.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4627.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
在我們現在國家非常有趣的就是舊省的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐譬如說蔡正元譬如說黃磊景如都被要求戴電子腳鐐結果呢性侵的被性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人那請問這個部分呢當時我有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4628.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4646.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
第一個就是性侵被告受刑人他們保外就醫的時候的管理以及第二個保外就醫辦法有提到一個第12條就是如果他治癒或者是說明顯改善的時候監獄指定7天以上的期日 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4647.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4665.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行那我當時覺得為什麼要有七天難道我們是一個小小多山的國家所以我們一個東西竟然要有七天這麼長的時間通知他回來執行我覺得這個不合理那請問一下部長在這段時間你們有研議了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4666.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4680.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
就這兩個部分跟委員報告 事實上我們對這個我們請矯正署要做一個嚴厲檢討那這個降仿式的密度我們會加強另外我會做一個修法譬如說反加碳式的一個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4681.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4700.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那另外我現在在跟你談的是保外就醫對 保外就醫另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據那這部分我們會嚴厲來做有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4707.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4731.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來你跟我說一下有沒有任何進度了有沒有再研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到他那個在8月8月5號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了但是已經在開申請所有法制作業的一則啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4733.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4748.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那你們還要多久可以完成就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已它其實只是辦法它不是法律我會去弄繳證書要繳證書他們去研議那可不可以速度再快一點那我們會加 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4750.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4773.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些看起來人畜無害的人結果你要嚴格的監控結果這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪這對不起國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4775.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4791.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我那我再問下一個問題部長你去年9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4792.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4815.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個修法我們有修77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的1130憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4818.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4835.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4836.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4865.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我覺得就算了 我不敢再期待行政院了如果在那邊又推給行政院那就算了我跟你講 包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述 憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述完全胡說八道騙國人你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話 我有在問你嗎部長 我有在問你嗎部長 你一定要搶答嗎 麻煩時間停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4866.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4890.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4892.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4921.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業了有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做就愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4922.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4951.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4954.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4967.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4968.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4996.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4997.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5024.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
然後呢 已經送到行政院去審理那8月12號是第五次的一個審查那我想他應該是到尾聲那叫審訊了嘛法務部已經把草案已經送到行政院好 我知道 我知道好 我了解了 你不用再講了我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾結果我們永遠等不到譬如說 我講一個啦 階幣者保護法不法關說 棄保潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5025.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5047.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家 疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5052.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5074.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面 我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務 大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面 給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講 講死大家好好的來就法律過去或 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5075.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5103.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
過去政府有一些不對的地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5104.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5133.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
保外就醫期間的一些監督因為上一次你跟矯正署署長兩個有提到就是說你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5134.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5156.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5158.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5183.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5184.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5194.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密 请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5196.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5223.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院呢也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5224.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5248.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那如果这部分想要我们是不是可以请那个我们的刑事厅长来进一步说明还是用书面这个部分你书面给我好了因为我还是认为教化可能性这句话目前还没有办法找到一个很详细的一个标准然后另外就是说因为我们现在对于判决死刑的部分你现在是被告行为时也要有识别的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5249.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5266.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
受就審時也要 執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5267.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5289.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
不管他在外面多壞他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖而且非常孝順所以人家說全台灣孝順的人密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說都說你不能關我我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說法庭變成是大家演戲爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性 傅敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5290.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5314.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5316.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5325.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好吧那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5327.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5346.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5349.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5373.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺其實我看完那個判決我有感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲演到很厲害所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5375.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5384.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5393.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5411.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5413.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5429.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是 就是還有在什麼時候適用因為它的法律效果竟然不一樣就是它應該更明確性OK 好 那我懂就是說至少複密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5431.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5446.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
这个我们尊重委员的一个体验那我想这个要有做一个配套因为我在那个报告中有讲因为这还要对应那个分折的问题那这边最后我就跟那个富密这边说明一下就我很谢谢你们对无期徒刑分级是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5447.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5464.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5466.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5489.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想這部分就謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好 那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5490.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5499.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5500.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5524.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5525.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5552.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5554.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5572.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
釋憲或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行那沒關係 部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好 謝謝柯文 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5586.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5612.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
好 下一位我們請王逸川委員好 主席我們請法務部部長好 麻煩部長好 我們請委員會司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5616.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5640.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由法官來決定白話文是這樣就法官在判的時候直接判說我現在判你這個罪但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說我判你這個罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5641.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5662.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
在判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級二級三級那你如果要假釋有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋大概是這樣那這個責任就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5663.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5683.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5686.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5699.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5700.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5704.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
對 可以啊 用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5724.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5754.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間他要的要件的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5755.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5770.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這一個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5773.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5793.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的大家專家學者來討論我覺得這當然是非常好的事情這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法我們尊重主責機關還有大院的權限可是我在這裡還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議一起思考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5794.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5821.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假施的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5822.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5833.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
但是就是說這個社會上總是覺得說現在都不能判私刑不能判私刑 最少也判死是我有這種講法是不能判私刑最少也判到都不能給出來太可惡了太可惡了但是因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是我就不給他出來我就這樣 這種太可惡了不給他出來所以鄭部長這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5852.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5876.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
請問一下 你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下現在行政院的這個草案裡頭大概有哪些類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5877.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5892.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
就是行政院 法務部或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計大概現在大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5893.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5911.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
最主要線說在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都10年以上有記住這個罪我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些是吧這個比較久另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了被撤銷後再再犯無期 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5912.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5939.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對判無期徒刑這個也不能假設好 這是你們的看法對 因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分因為有這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個虐童 這個坑喔那也許虐童他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童可是大家看到那個影片啦哇 這些怎麼這麼坑喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5942.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5962.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那對這個小朋友的身心啊 都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種的不能保護他 想要什麼 關到死就是會有這樣的一個 一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些 就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些 這種的就不要給他假釋 給他關起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5963.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5984.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那這種事情不用討論嗎 部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5984.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5997.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面的因為的確是人審公募一定要是人審公募天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公募大家看電視說這個這麼空過了幾年之後判下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6005.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6016.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
看來說這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論所以我是建議這樣因為這個修法過程剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過大英到現在我看到要一年了這個過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6023.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6040.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒有參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待 社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭也不能說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6043.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6054.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案子我是建議說 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6056.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6082.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
請這個法官的團體 檢察官的團體 校政署還有一些學者 還有一些被害人的家屬社會 大家再來討論一下看說到底哪一些應該列入最剛才吳宗憲委員講的一級 二級 三級我覺得這樣 為什麼特別提吳委員的一級 二級 三級這個法官那麼大的權力 這有風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6086.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6105.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
什麼風險呢 就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說 我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉 社會認為很可惡很可惡 判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三 尤其一開始的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6112.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6117.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
還沒有其他的判例的時候 1 2 3剛開始的時候那一開始的法官 我看 腦膜在燒啦所以這個 副理事長有什麼要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6123.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6146.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的 務其徒刑是在事後的時候在執行的時候這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊那審查制現在就是說這個不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測沒有啦 剛剛就委員說嘛說事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛剛委員說嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6153.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6162.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
所以你如果是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這些都分級還有一個制度要來決定這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6167.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6172.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那社會就要討論那這個制度參與的機制是什麼參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會所以我是覺得這樣這個案子大家討論把這一些事情我是建議召委開一個會社會有共識法務部告訴我們這幾種的故意殺人 殺人未遂 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6196.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6212.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
而社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個上面一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把它這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定那法官的團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6213.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6236.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
法官應該你們有什麼協會嘛 你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去 還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識 或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們省下差不多一年的討論 社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院 立法完了之後大家說 蛤 現在改這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦 好 那我就直言到這裡 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6239.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6257.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好 謝謝王委員那我這部分我們再來思考一下 好 謝謝那個夫敏剛講到說那個這可不可以假釋很難預測那一樣啊 就是你們那個個案法官啊他用有沒有教化可能性不能判死刑也是都在預測啦好那我們下一位請陳培宇委員發言好 謝謝主席有請法務部長 謝謝麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6268.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6283.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
委員好好 部長好 謝謝主席我其實也想要先附和一下剛王玉川委員說的啦公聽會我也認為應該要辦一下主要的原因是我還記得上個禮拜我們在教文修這個AI基本法的黨團協商的時候當時的主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6284.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6304.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
吳宗憲委員你也有在嘛你不是主席但是你有參與這個黨團協商的討論你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情大家對AI非常非常的關心所以你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去然後就把這個法案寫好寫滿基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦然後其實也違反了我們在立法的時候書寫文字的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6305.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6332.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6333.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6349.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分呢他們民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6349.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6373.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6374.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6393.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉犯詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的命案 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6395.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6411.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
當時這個人確實就開始出去串證了新聞報導也都出來了相關的手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感還有民眾的擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6412.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6440.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6441.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6445.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6446.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6472.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱咪那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱咪絕對是辦不成的所以包括很多犯罪集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6473.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6480.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪記憶體就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6482.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6502.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來作證或來說實話那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵犯尤其像我們像那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用串證的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6505.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6525.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那個德國 美國 法國 澳洲 國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做境界那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括了洗錢等等的還虐捅的 殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6527.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6546.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我們想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6547.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6569.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信喔在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容他說呢目前我們來看積壓目前在實務上有很多積壓的理由是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6570.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6598.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
有可能會湮滅、偽造、變造證據就所謂的滅證或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證所以一個是滅證一個是串證所以就文藝上的解釋串證是指對於人證的妨害而滅證是指對於物證的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待串證跟滅證的區別 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6602.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6616.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那个串串是人嘛对证人嘛我刚刚已经说是人那个人的证言人的证言最容易去做沟川了而且他有人情的压力甚至因为迫于一些的恐吓怎么样他不敢或者为了己身的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6616.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6630.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的犯罪這個串證罪這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6632.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6657.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那關於物證就是所謂的滅證的部分我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6657.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6675.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的串證行為羈押的替代手段像交保的這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6677.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6696.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才我也有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6699.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6725.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
魅症如果留著 那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那怎麼積壓的我們就是譬如說科技監控還有定期報到都是要防止他脫逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6726.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6749.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6750.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6772.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串陣這個部分從羈押要件拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6773.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6792.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6792.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6815.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那檢察官你要舉證說他有羈押的必要性羈押的理由羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護那是非常的周延的他可以請律師有攻防有開庭另外其實他被羈押他還可以抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6816.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6830.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護債法律的程序是非常的周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像兆團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那政策無從伸張所以我們非常擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6837.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6852.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
的保護真的是因為不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權利這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6865.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6889.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6890.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6914.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6916.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6918.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
念完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6932.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6953.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6954.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6973.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6975.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6991.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6995.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7016.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7018.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7046.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
謝謝委員 我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員矯正人員的這部分就是游教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒運這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒運都不得假施的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的問題都是非常的緊迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7047.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7075.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的 監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對 那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7076.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7097.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來我們那個在行政已經審查已經8月10號最後一次了那即將要定案了那我們還要在會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點它是一個執行面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7098.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7120.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽腳證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7120.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7147.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
哪一級 這個在技術性在法官這邊是有它的一個困難有一個困難 標準是不是一致好 沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7148.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7164.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
由教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能長治久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7164.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7191.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席 謝謝部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7193.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7207.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關就是那個宮廷會的事情就是那個宮廷會的部分我們當然是可以再思考看看有沒有這個必要性那我在5月22號的時候其實在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7208.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7225.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
神里幼童的那個宮廷會的時候其實那時候已經就把它放在議程裡面就不得假釋的部分其實我們有在宮廷會裡面有討論過了那這是一個就已經有辦過一次宮廷會那有沒有需要再辦這個部分我們再思考一下我再思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7227.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7245.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
剛剛有提到就是監鎖所以後來我們最近一直在排視察其實也是為了跟不得假釋配套我們因為這是一連串的所以我們前陣子為什麼一直去監鎖就這個原因當然游玉蘭的那個對 那是一個很好的建議但其實這世界上很多國家都有不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7248.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7255.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
謝謝 這幾個您剛的建議我就會思考一下看有沒有必要再開公認會這給您的回應 謝謝陳委員下一位我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我請一下法務部長麻煩部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7274.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7290.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
部長好 部長請問一下你這個禮拜會不會寫辭職信啊有沒有準備這個我想我每天坐在整個在推動我們這個業務的一個正常推動我想這個是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7292.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7295.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
你還是要堅守崗位目前要堅守崗位應該沒有這個問題因為這兩天因為委員都很關心這個問題對 我很關心當然關心我們作為在野監督者當然關心因為院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7308.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7323.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
說這個禮拜應該會完成整個的內閣改組那現在看起來呢可能要走的閣員都會主動寫個辭職信不想寫可能也被逼著要寫所以我才問您這句話所以應該這個禮拜你們有這個這個可能嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7325.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7349.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
謝謝 我很關心好 OK那請問一下就是我們現在討論的就是我們針對虐童不得假釋的部分我不曉得法務部的態度是什麼因為在之前我們針對凌虐幼兒致死那要處以最高可以處以死刑那那個時候是並沒有行政院版本我記得當時我們在做協調的時候那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7354.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7381.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
法务部还说会在一个月因为我们就是又被冷冻一个月那法务部还说会提出版本但是最后法务部并没有提出行政院版本那我想请问一下那有关于现在我们立法院很多委员都提案就是虐童致死也最高可以处无期徒刑而且不得假释这个部分法务部的态度是什么那么我们会有行政院的版本吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7383.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7410.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
行政院的版本因為我們其實我們那時候說法務部的版本很快就提到已經提到去年就提到行政院那行政院已經五次的審查我想快要審訊了即將審訊已經到最後的一個階段了那再就會嫌立法院那個司法院就會送到行政院來做一個審議了那委員非常關心這個內統事實上這個內統是人審公分 田裡然農這個我想我們的理念都一致的那內統當然不能假設我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7411.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7440.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們是贊同的啊這個我們是贊同的啊那贊同會有版本嗎因為我為什麼特別講就是當時我們還特別協調然後冷凍一個月因為那時候我是覺得根本不要冷凍一個月可是因為當時你們說你們可以提出版本所以我們就等可是你們最後還是沒有提出版本而在立法院最後處理三讀通過的時候當時民進黨所有的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7441.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7458.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
通通投下反對票所有民進黨的委員通通投下反對票所以我們就不懂啦在這邊講說願意支持然後願意提版本在我們立法院院會三讀通過的時候民進黨又所有的委員通通投下反對票 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7459.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7482.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以我們就不懂這個到底態度看起來態度就是堅決反對不然為什麼全部都投反對票還沒有開放投票所以我想請問一下您剛剛講說現在法務部已經有修法送到行政院所以基本上我們現在立法院我們幾位委員的提案我們法務部是支持的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7483.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7506.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這部分有些部分的因為這要配合那個回應那個113年宪判八字號的一個判決那也回應到民意那這邊我跟委員報告過了我們對這些天理人審共憤這些特殊重大暴力的犯罪包括這個286 刑犯286孽童的這部分我們的立場我們是希望這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7509.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7532.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個不適用假釋的一個規定那我想這部分行政已經到最後是不是在等甚至剛才我也有提到說是不是要在辦公室這個範圍的一個問題那我想這個286那這樣好不好因為當然我們這個會期也快要結束了那你們下會期可以送到立法院來嗎我們努力因為這個已經到最後的一個審查階段了 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7533.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7551.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
對 我真的覺得因為你不要每次都嘴巴上說同意然後最後都沒有行動而且執政黨委員的投票又變成反對所以這樣的話我們希望說能夠你們就直接在下個會期好不好能夠送進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7552.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7581.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我覺得很多的法案如果大家有一致就不需要為了對立因為我們說實在我們在這個會期尤其在大罷免之前太多只是為了反對而反對好像你再也講提什麼東西我即便是對的是對的你們也要反對反對到底所以我真的覺得這個部分剛才講就是我們如何防止孽兒而且針對零孽幼兒致死的是大家都知道是零容忍所以都應該去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7583.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7589.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我時間還有一點點對不起 到後面這個是我這幾天一直很想詢問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7592.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7621.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
最近有幾個案件其實大家覺得很有感沒有錯 他們是觸犯了相關的法則但是說實在 對一般人來講那個都是很違罪我們常常在想說你們法院也好 檢察官也好累積這麼大量案件這麼多的詐欺案要辦還有你要辦這麼多的司法這個政治的案件還有很多的案件結果我們現在出現的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7621.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7634.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
一些的這個法則第一個就是說有一個女子兩年前她在淘寶去買了棉花棒她是買了20包20包一共480塊480塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7637.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7660.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那他這個當然呢他是違反相關的就是這個你這個醫用型的這些不能夠進口超量那可能一般的人搞不清楚那好他違法了那時候呢也被沒收結果兩年後警方上門逮人而且把他拘留在看守所一個晚上買20包的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7664.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7669.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
棉花棒要被拘留在看守所一個晚上然後讓他繳十萬塊錢的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7672.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7699.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這樣的一個司法的行為其實我們覺得不解啦這樣可能任何人都可能觸法任何人都可能觸法好 另外一個案件貪污是不對的可是像這個清潔隊員他是把廢棄的家具他覺得這個家具人家覺得不要但是他在資源回收的時候他覺得這個家具是堪用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7700.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7704.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
他就把他呢送給了好友人他覺得很可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7705.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7734.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
結果依貪污罪起訴面臨五年以上有期徒刑大家都知道一旦是用貪污罪起訴就五年以上有期徒刑所以我要講就是說身在宮門好修行我們對於貪贓枉法違反法令的犯罪行為當然要打擊保護好人但是我講的這兩個例子我真的不覺得他們是壞人 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7736.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7754.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
他們有 就是你買個棉花棒然後你要被到看守所還要住一晚很多人都很害怕你知道嗎即便是這種一般人聽到警方煞門就嚇死了然後現在讓他到看守所去然後罰20萬 對不起 罰10萬塊那這個有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7758.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7785.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
貪污為罪貪污在過去有好幾個案例所以我希望說我們法務部這邊是不是也可以針對這種為罪是不是他一定要處以這麼重的刑罰好像這個清潔隊員我覺得很多人都非常同情啊這個叫貪污那貪污更重的逍遙法外的更多呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7787.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7799.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以是不是部長既然我剛才一開始就問你你會不會寫辭職信你說你會堅守崗位好 那我也希望人在公門好修行 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7800.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7815.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
老講法務部這一年多來你的施政的這個其實是非常偏頗的啦你做了很多的司法的案件但是我覺得我們是不是也能夠苦民所苦我剛才講的這個兩個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7817.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7836.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
能不能在我們在法令上能做一些調整跟修正不要再出現像這樣子的一個小老百姓他也不懂他其實他也他那時候做的時候他也不曉得自己是犯罪但是呢卻要受到這樣的待遇部長可不可以就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7837.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7852.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
尤其在司法的部分能夠讓我們真的是要保護好人而不是去懲戒這些這種違罪就不要讓他有面臨這麼重的相關的罰則好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7854.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7879.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
好 謝謝委員那委員關心的就是那個清潔隊員這一種的的確是清清法重那這部分我們保護部都很重視這個問題事實上我們已經把修正草案送給行政院審查那這部分我跟委員報告這個像這個小貪污這部分那貪污自衛條例12條第一項有修正減輕或免除其刑那減輕的話還得減到三分之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7879.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7908.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我想這比較合乎到我們一個實際上的一個甚至可以免除疾險就不用管了那我想這個給法定人員你是修法嗎是修法好吧你可以把那個修法相關的那個你們的資料提供給我們辦公室一份好不好我覺得因為最近很多人跟我反映這個我自己也心有所感另外那個淘寶那個那是屬於衛福部的全職我知道我沒辦法去處理這個區塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7909.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7925.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
好好好那這個我們會去跟衛福部但是這個衛福部這當然是要罰啦他這個他是有用但是兩年之後又跑過去還要給人家關一個晚上我覺得真的非常離譜啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請省發會委員發言待會在翁曉琳委員詢答結束後休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7948.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7969.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
主席 我想今天我們在討論有關於刑法修正草案的這些相關的修訂有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7971.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7995.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7997.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8025.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8027.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8044.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8045.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8061.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8061.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8084.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望說在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8089.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8101.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
有關我就是因為我今天手頭上版本我看到就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個無期徒刑分析制的這個大概是第33條這個組刑之種類還有這個第51條數字類併罰的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上刑的這個併刑執行大概就這4條的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8115.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8135.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度 一再斟酌 傾聽各方意見等等這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單 你們大概就提了兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8137.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8150.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
一個就是說你們認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面它沒有相關適用要件的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8152.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8174.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8179.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8204.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我在今天的這四條的修正裡面 我覺得看不到啦 我看不到那如果是由法官來 或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的 最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候 他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑 還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8205.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8224.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對這個今天的這個就只修這四條法來增訂這個這個這個不紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8225.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8239.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8240.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8247.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
平均假釋年數是17.917.9年我看趙偉的簡報我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個無期徒刑的受刑人他們平均的假釋的年限是17.9因為他這只到111年我看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8262.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8267.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900應該是994人對不對 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8273.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8282.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8302.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8329.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8331.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8338.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
現在是整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人 您假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8339.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8360.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
沒有 因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新舊法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8361.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8368.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
裡面有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8375.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8391.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8392.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8419.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡也跟趙偉來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的這幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假設 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8421.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8447.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把它假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8448.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8475 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8475.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8495.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法了我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8496.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8514.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8519.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8534.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8540.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8565.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8568.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8585.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清 再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8588.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8600.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
倒數第二天的委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界 實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8606.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8634.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這樣子的制度它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些對我都沒有意義了我所有遵守這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8634.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8653.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種一期無期徒刑這些重申監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8654.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8682.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8683.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8711.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8713.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8731.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
謝謝 那再跟沈委員報告有關這個要不要再加開公定會這個我會再思考一下看怎麼樣做比較好因為這個議題是因為拋出來已經一年了所以我才想說我們還是要有進度這對國家才有交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8732.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8753.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
另外因為還有一個就是中深部的假釋其實在很多國家都有很多國家有這個制度那當然您所提到的那個有啦就是進去會不會覺得遙遙無期是是是是是好所以說這部分我會再思考一下看有沒有必要再加開公定會凝聚各界的意見好謝謝那接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8760.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8764.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
謝謝主席召委 楊卿瑩發言邀請部長發布 麻煩部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8770.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8792.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
部長好 我們針對於在2017年到2022年間全國至少有47名的兒少因為嚴重的虐待致死我們又反推往前的10年 更有221名的兒少遭虐死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8792.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8799.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那其中來自父母方或者是來自照顧方的暴力行為那現在大家重視這個問題所以在針對於刑法286條以加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8806.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8834.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
但是如果說施虐者仍舊可以適用這個假釋那我們認為會使整個刑法的嚇阻作用它是大打這個折扣所以甚至會讓社會大眾再度的暴露到這個加害者的一個威脅當中所以為了落實整個司法的正義跟保護兒少的一個安全本期希望能夠明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8835.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8855.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
虐童犯罪者不得在這樣的條件之下不得適用假釋所以本席今天也提出了一個修正動議也就是在我們刑法第77條裡頭增訂虐童罪者不得不得假釋所以要請教要請教部長您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8857.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8884.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這個內統的確是很惡劣的那那個內統致死的這種案例就是286的這個問題我想這些天理南榮這些的天理南榮 林榮仁林榮仁的案件我們都是就是整個不得假釋的立場我們都是非常尊重委員的一個寶貴意見那我想不是只有286啦所以我們提出的那個你就本席所提出的去行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8885.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8903.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
應該是支持 這是不得假釋的非常感謝你行政院的版本我們是說故意殺人或殺人為罪只要判無期徒刑或者是10年以上有期徒刑的這部分我們都是不適用假釋的希望適用在不得的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8905.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8927.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以我要謝謝你因為本席認為在假釋的制度它不應該淪為這一個制度尤其在286條虐童致死的這個部分那麼不得是這個制度的一個破口我也要謝謝部長你的支持我也希望待會討論的時候能夠得到各位同仁大家的支持接下來本席要邀請衛福部張師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8936.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8953.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
市長 等一下請教因為本期在衛福委員會提過幾次那終於因為我們看到近年醫師涉及性侵的這個性平案件那衛福部本來就應當要設立狼獅的查詢平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8954.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8973.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
一直沒有上線我們一直討論終於達成共識而且謝謝你們也已經正式的這個平台已經上線你首波你公布了六個醫師一個放射師但是現在到目前為止你所公布的這七位有三個醫師仍舊在職業本席也問過 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8978.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8998.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那你們告訴我告訴本席說你們只有是資訊揭露不是如此喔我想聽聽你的意見喔是謝謝委員關心這個議題雖然這個業務不在保護司的業務但是我想就過去今天妳代表那個衛福部來 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8999 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9004.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
過去在整個影響職業影響他的職業的相關規定裡面特別涉及性侵害或者是性議題這樣的一個侵犯人權的立法裡頭目前看起來就是在校園就是教室這一塊不適任人員有法律規定你非常詳細的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9021.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9043.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
校園的部分他是針對校園性平他的一個處理程序他必須一旦發生他必須在24小時去提報如果這個人是這個教師的話學校必須要提報上來24小時之內要提報提報出去他必須暫時的停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9044.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9048.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他的職務接受調查這是在校園裡頭這是因為這個老師跟學生的關係是非常緊密但是醫生跟醫病關係要不要等同師生關係我覺得這個在到現在問不你們的回答還是不盡本質的不清不楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9063.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9065.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
在我們醫師法第25條裡頭非常清楚的明定違反醫學倫理或業務不正當行為可一復懲戒但是到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9079.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9086.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
你們還是只停滯當然有精英小部你已經上線了你在上線所公布的這七個裡頭還有三位現在還在執業所以讓這些患者他非常的緊張那怎麼辦 要不要去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9097.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9100.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
已經有校園性平的一個處理程序已經非常的清楚在這裡那麼依照醫師法你們也必須也得去提出這個懲戒來做討論 懲案那到現在都不做那你光一個上限要幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9117.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9139.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
你觀光業上線要做什麼你讓患者還是很緊張啊你公佈一個他竟然還在執業啊那是怎麼辦呢前幾天全國醫師公會的連署上面有特別提到這一切要依法行政也就是說就這個依法請你帶回去你到底要修醫師法你到底要修醫師懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9142.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9153.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
程序的法律還是怎麼如此我希望你們去研討出來我們跨出了一大步一定要有成效而不是讓這些人逍遙法外啊讓這些患者還是很緊張啊這不是我們政府應該做的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9159.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9163.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我們政府應該 既然妳說了前幾天都已經提出 妳必須要有法那妳們應該要去研討啊 要去提出啊妳的事是會提出是不是我想這個部裡頭應該相關的業務單位應該會審慎的來處理要盡快提出來幫助 妳們上線也才有才有真的成效 好不好謝謝 請帶回去 研討出來請給本席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9187.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9207.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好 謝謝下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言主席好 在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9213.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9233.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
委員好市部長您好我想您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9234.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9261.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9262.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9284.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9285.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9308.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的義職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好 這邊我想提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9310.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9329.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9331.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9358.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9359.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9374.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9380.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9398.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多包括游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得假釋A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修的能夠有回復民意的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9398.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9401.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9420.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9439.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9440.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9456.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9459.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9474.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
連署說主張要徵修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9475.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9492.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9493.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9519.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
然后所以这时候又开始转变就说其实可以似乎是可以赞成不得假设的修法可是呢你们既然赞成了不得假设修法那中间呢又有些不同差别一开始也是想说可能可以针对无期徒刑进行成绩化的区别然后呢到去年的这个又后来又到了11月又说是可以采取什么特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假设的方向推动修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9519.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9532.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在防務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9533.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9551.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9552.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9574.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
判5起或10例以上尤其是所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大暴力犯罪不能假釋嗎另外大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們主要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦 就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9575.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9590.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動不得假釋的修法還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9590.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9616.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何然後待會也請司法院的王副秘書長也來表示一下你們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9618.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9636.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9637.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9651.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
施加身體或心理的一個痛苦而且這個是對反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪好 謝謝部長您的說明請問王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9657.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9678.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
謝謝委員因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關不是司法院我們尊重組織機關的意見但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要思考的就是說公正公約第7條還有歐洲人權公約第3條它都有禁止酷刑處分的規定所以說如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9679.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9702.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9703.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9717.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於就是不得假釋的部分認為是有為之的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長 鄭部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9723.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9747.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9750.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9762.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9768.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9788.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
包委員 這個是不是違憲這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個主責力就是我們不是我們主責我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好 那請 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9793.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9815.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
部長 如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋 不行不行 不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度 日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9815.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9832.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9834.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9850.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9851.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9870.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9874.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9894.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
好 謝謝因為吳委員有希望說吳委員講完之後再休息所以我們更改一下宣告吳委員質詢完畢之後我們再那個強哥請問一下吳委員說他希望能夠接著質詢不休息沒問題那強哥你要你問完再休息還是你要接著問 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9895.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9908.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
接著 好 那是不是說因為剩沒有幾位那我們是不是等整個質詢完畢之後我們再休息 好 謝謝那接下來請吳世堯委員謝謝主席 有請部長麻煩部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9915.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9944.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
部長大家辛苦了我想司法法治委員會從這一屆期開始到今天還有明天恐怕是就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末的最後兩次的開會那我還是要表達一下立場我還是很遺憾一再有委員為個案在質詢台上來為難您我再一次呼籲我們在司法法治委員會我們要就制度面 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9944.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9960.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
而不要講個別的案件尊重司法的獨立辦案政治力不要干預司法我再一次強調即便這已經說了N遍還是要表達本席當然也是民進黨團的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9962.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9987.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那今天的主題進入之前我先來拋出這個疑問我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題民眾黨的提案勾串共犯或證人要免羈押的這個事情這個修法呢涉及為一人修法為個案開脫大開法制的倒車甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9988.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10016.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以檢察界、檢察官、律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對未個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10018.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10045.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10046.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10060.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10062.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10086.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10088.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10109.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我告訴你 部長 我很擔心我們這一年半來 都是這樣下個會席 他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推 是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外 你們能做什麼 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10110.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10137.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
後患無窮以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到即便通過了打詐四法但是來補了這一槍把詐騙集團全部都可以逃都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長我不是要為難您 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10139.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10157.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他We can't do more是這樣嗎Can we do more行政部門可以多做什麼 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10158.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10186.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10187.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10208.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10212.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10229.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10231.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10260.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10261.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10288.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我相信我們的召委 出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通 都可以對話而不是只有反對 好嗎這是我的期許 下面終身監禁的制度 我支持但是草率倉促的修法 我反對我的主張 要有院版 要有公聽會也要有配套 才能上路 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10290.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10302.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核憲之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10303.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10325.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳東雄委員所提的這個議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10327.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10339.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10341.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10362.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度你們有院版嘛對不對有布版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎布版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法還有監獄刑刑法監獄刑刑法也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10363.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10386.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
然后呢法院组织法跟刑事诉讼法有没有要一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未来我也在这里对于我们的召委还有其他司法委员会的成员来呼吁整个制度要配套是四个法可能都要一起来思考而不要只单从某一步法就为快而快下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10387.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10406.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10407.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10426.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度yes yes yes |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10427.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10451.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快 為修而修NO NO NO要正院版你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院 院還要再會嫌司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10452.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10477.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎?對不對?同意第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比評一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10478.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10502.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10504.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10528.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好 最後兩頁 下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10529.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10556.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個裁判因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10558.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10580.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10581.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10594.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10595.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10614.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yes yes yes但是草率仓促的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10615.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10643.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10644.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10663.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10665.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10689.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝那我們下一位請羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10701.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10730.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
有請部長麻煩部長委員好部長在正式開始質詢之前我想先講一個台電的鬼故事給你聽你知道我們台電長年以來一直都是我們國家收入的金雞母國營事業金雞母你知道到哪一年它開始賠錢的你知道嗎這個我不清楚當然不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10730.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10743.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
他是在2006年開始賠錢的陳水扁執政民進黨第一次執政2006年開始賠錢賠了非常巨額的所謂的虧損最後馬政府上來以後那也被逼的調漲電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10745.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10757.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
但是你知道這個台電這個金積母是到哪一年又從所謂的大錢坑又變回金積母呢你知道嗎我不清楚對 你一定不知道是2014年就馬總統任內把它從賠錢貨又變回金積母 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10762.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10785.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
你知道到馬總統卸任的時候交了多少的盈餘變成電價穩定基金交給蔡英文政府你知道嗎你一定不知道 828億的電價穩定基金可是民進黨執政到現在9年了你知道台電撥補了多少錢嗎這個我不清楚你也不知道 3000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10788.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10798.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
然後你知道台電撥補了3000億之後現在虧損多少嗎你也不知道對不對超過4500億給他828億用光光然後再用納稅錢補3000億馬政府說一毛錢都沒補 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10806.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10834.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那再加上還賠了4500億以上加起來的坑這個大錢坑就是8000億好 接下來我就要問你知道的事了請問你知道8000億的大錢坑是哪一個老鼠坑掉的你是不是知道這我不清楚你不知道啊你不知道該打屁股了因為這個不是我全管的我告訴你 你不知道該打屁股為什麼 我講原因給你聽我講原因給你聽就是幣安吞掉的啦我現在直接跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10836.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10863.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
就是綠能的小老鼠跟大老鼠一起吞掉的啦現在要抓到一個綠能小老鼠啦是誰你總知道吧不會告訴我不知道吧有一個綠電小老鼠被抓到了啊是誰那個鄭姓的嫌犯嘛對啊 鄭義林啊喬宮殿啊好偉大啊收賄貪污啊難怪台電一直虧錢全部去養這種綠能老鼠 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10865.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10892.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這已經是綠能產業結構性的貪腐 抱歉啦我覺得我看到我們法務部我們的檢調好像對於這八千億的老鼠坑實質上要拖三拖四不會啦 他那個跟我們報告其實像某核電廠的某位的廠長我再問你啦沒關係 我再問你啦這位小老鼠 我現在稱之小老鼠 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10893.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10910.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
他不到30歲就擔任行政院能源檢探辦公室主任外界稱他是小英男孩背景深厚喬供電然後呢 貪污收賄坐擁聚產沒有關係 我想請問法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10913.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10932.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
針對這個案子有沒有向上溯源擴大偵辦我問題問完你再回答一個小英男孩就有辦法做到這件事有沒有其他政府人士黨政人士涉入部長回答之前我先幫你回答你會說個案不評論你會說偵查不公開對不對我猜中了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10934.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10962.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我想有證據就一定向上溯源嘛好 第三句證據到哪辦到哪對啊 那個現在那個不是有那個今天這個新聞就出來了包括那個證訊嫌犯以及那個某建設公司的副職都已經進鑑了嘛就進鑑了 那進鑑就羈押進鑑這個就彰顯了我們就是要向上溯源沒關係啦 我要告訴你啦我想這個外界看你們檢察官在辦事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10964.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10977.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
今天王俊麗有沒有施壓就罷免期間不要動罷免結果再動有沒有這個不要去做一個採測你可以做一個採測你幫王俊麗背書你不要去做採測我不用採測你幫她背書你就說絕對沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10978.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11002.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
當然 是不是 這個怎麼可能你就直接講 絕對沒有嘛這個不要去揣測說什麼就政治上的一個考量請問 這個案件 到底他在裡面 運人小老鼠偷吃台電 偷吃了多少年 多久他偷吃多久 你告訴大家 總知道吧這個案件我不清楚你看嘛 又來了 個案不清楚 偵查不公開你只有一個情況之下 你們的偵查會公開啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11004.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11016.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
辦柯文哲 辦黃玉璟的偵查就一定公開啦報紙就報滿滿啦遇到今天民進黨的綠能弊案就偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據辦到哪裡你就這三句話就結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11018.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11044.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
說真的整個執行 你三句話 你在那邊可以結束啊來 我要告訴你有沒有其他政府人士 黨政人士涉入 有沒有個案不評論 偵查不公開這個要看那個案件 得一個證據 得一個搜集權證據到哪 辦到哪 結束我問你 你也回答了 來那 鄭姓嫌犯被搜索時 竟然對調查人員嗆聲啊你知道我背後是誰嗎我想請問你知道他背後是誰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11046.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11074.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
你知道他背後是誰嗎背後就是民進黨背後就是權貴行政院能源檢探辦公室是不是政府職務是不是30歲不到就可以去當行政院能源檢探辦公室主任背景深厚啊權貴啊綠油油啊黨政關係好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11076.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11093.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
沒有上線天花板嘛 該辦就辦嘛 對不對誤反誤中嘛 有證據就辦嘛非常好 你終於講一句我認同的話有證據就辦啦 這部分黨派啊就有證據向上辦啦來沒關係 我告訴你有一個人期待你向上辦你知道是誰嗎有一個人期待你向上辦是誰嗎 你知道嗎有這個問題嗎郭志輝啊郭志輝講了啊為什麼一直講綠能小老鼠 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11104.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11130.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
郭志輝更假於綠能大老鼠啊 更大尾在後面啊郭志輝什麼時候約談 個案不評論 偵查不公開有證據到哪 辦到哪來了嘛 我懂啊我懂啊 我懂啊我這一年多跟部長你相處 我怎麼會不瞭解你你看我都幫你回答 我對你多體貼我看連吳宗憲主席都可以幫你回答了我要不要點他起來幫你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11132.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11160.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
綠能大老鼠請教主席會議詢問綠能大老鼠是這樣你覺得我們的部長他的回答就是三句話就結束啊檢察官他就這樣三句話結束啊好啦沒事主席就拿你做示範啦因為他也都面對你這樣的回答嘛每一個都面對你這樣回答三句話金句結束我都常常在講今天我們的法務部長你直接在背後貼一個背板 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11162.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11190.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
然後呢 每個委員上來質詢你就是偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據到哪辦到哪 三句然後每個委員問完你就說 三句你認選結束了嘛 質詢就很好過啊那我就要問啦郭志威說還有更大委 那個綠能大老鼠請問檢察官該不該辦 該不該約談你也是檢察系統出身的人嘛他都已經跟講更大委了 要不要辦嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11192.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11217.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我不問個案喔這個我就要會議詢問沒辦法抱歉因為我沒幹過檢察官我不知道也許我這個才疏學淺這個知識短陋當今天綠能小老鼠已經是被抓到偷吃綠能偷吃台電挖台電的錢造成台電的虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11219.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11236.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那想請問郭志輝經濟部長誒說還有更大尾的一個正常的檢察官會不會辦他起碼約談他會不會約談他我不知道檢察官失誤檢察官是可以主動簡報分案分案之後當然是可以傳訊因為可以把他當作證人的身份傳喚 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11237.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11260.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
對啊 謝謝 你看回答得多好我沒有教你指導個案我要問你是原則嘛你看看主席原則性講得多好檢報分案就可以了啊你跟我這樣回答我也滿意啊你要等到主席講完以後才要跟進也不錯啦主席指導你我覺得你講得也蠻好的啊謝謝主席指導啊大家一起給他掌聲鼓勵鼓勵啊我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11263.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11283.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
八千億的坑哪裡來的啊八千億的坑就是今天法務部檢查系統你們怠惰造成的啦今天你好好抓綠人小老鼠綠人大老鼠你積極主動一點阿現在不抓了嗎阿你抓一隻小老鼠更大尾的你告現在給我吱吱嗚嗚那抓一個小老鼠九年抓一隻小老鼠很驕傲啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11284.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11301.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
很驕傲啊我知道啊 9年很困難啊柯文哲跟黃綠景如就不困難啊還有文昭文書一千萬交保 超級不困難啊完全沒有違和感啊國民黨的黨工 被你們抓200多個約談對不對 起訴30個人 也不困難啊只有遇到藍的困難啦遇到綠的不困難啦 我還不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11311.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11338.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
最後我要跟我們要尊重檢察官的辦案的一個計劃嘛謝謝你啦 謝謝你啦遇到綠的案子就尊重檢察官辦案遇到藍的案子基本上就努力用力的死命的往死裡打死裡辦啦我在這邊跟部長直接講一件事情我知道在這個任內你的任內 民進黨任內是無望啦是無望啦講什麼都叫狗吠火車啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11339.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11359.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
但是我今天鄭重跟你保證我會開始推動政治迫害調查委員會我今天就要檢視半藍不半綠然後用偵查公開不正手段來去迫害在野黨迫害政治迫害在野黨這些不屑的辦案人員你當然這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11363.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11389.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這句話交給人民公判啦交給人民公判啦遇到今天民進黨的案子到底我們檢察官辦的情形力度如何我不跟你辯論因為我知道反正你就那三句話結束你叫三具部長啦但是我要跟你講什麼人民看得清清楚楚嘛你有看過一個偽造文書還是一千萬交保的你看過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11391.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11407.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我今天看你看看今天你們對在野黨的方式啊你知道十分之一拿來對付民進黨的貪賭弊案台電八千億的坑就可能補得起來我告訴你沒有關係我說過我們不抱任何期待我在這邊就宣誓啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11409.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11433.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
就是要 民進黨都可以成立什麼轉型正義委員會 不當廠產的委員會一樣啊 重版執政來成立政治迫害委員會啊我這邊也要拜託 我告訴各位檢察官很多非常正直的啊我也不是沒有遇到檢察官跟我complain說這幾年人家水生活 正直檢察官水生活的所在多有 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11434.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11460.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
今天我做這件事情是為了政治檢察官因為你如果沒有辦法去約束去讓這些為了求官去向所謂的執政者表態的打手告訴他們你今天所有的清算鬥爭的手法你要付出代價的話我告訴你政治永遠無法清明所以這是我很簡單的一個結論我最後還是要講我在這邊跟你公開推薦一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11462.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11483.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
王俊麗一定要保他 重用他 為什麼育人小老鼠等到罷免案之後再辦 非常好但是羅志強你等不及啊7月30日發一個莫名其妙的公文要查我公車廣告的資金 奇怪啦不然你總有法律常識吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11485.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11505.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
競選當天有沒有所謂的宣傳罷免或選舉那是行政罰款吧 沒錯吧是不是啊 沒錯吧 是啦那我想請問你啊 我很抱歉啊那請問7月31號這麼火速火急啊我謝謝王俊麗的積極認識啦 謝謝你 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11510.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11535.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員好 所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 請大家結束委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關進出送交個別委員及本會那我們依照先前宣告 我們先休息五分鐘休息五分鐘之後我們進行討論事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12081.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12104.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我們繼續開會我們進行討論事項由於第一案有多位委員建議要開公聽會提取各界的意見所以所以我這邊針對討論事項第一案我想我們就另定期繼續審查那第二個我們現在繼續進行討論事項的第二案我們先宣讀提案條約一分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12106.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12124.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
請參閱條文對照表討論事項第二案刑事訴訟法委員傅坤祺等提案第71條第一項及第二項同線型條文新增第三項被告為外籍配偶外籍人士時前項之記載事項應加註該國文字或英文翻譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12125.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12148.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
第四項及第五項同線型條文第三項及第四項委員郭育晴等提案第七十一條第一項及第二項同線型條文增訂第三項被告為外國籍人士包括外籍學生工作者或配偶時前項所列應記載事項應付該國語言或英文之翻譯第四項及第五項分別同線型條文的第三項及第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12149.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12166.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
委員副坤吉等提案第175條第一項及第二項同性情條文新增第三項證人為外籍配偶外籍人士時前項之記載事項應加註該國文字或英文翻譯第四項及第五項分別同性情條文第三項及第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12167.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12185.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
委員郭育晴等提案第175條第一項至第三項同線型條文新增第四項證人為外國籍人士包括外籍學生工作者或配偶時前項所列應記載事項應付該國語言或英文之翻譯第五項同線型條文第四項宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12189.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12207.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好 第二案的條文宣讀完畢我們先處理會議時間 中午不休息上午會議持續進行好 我們現在進行討論第二案繼續併案審查委員傅坤吉等25人委員郭育群等18人分別凝聚刑事訴訟法71條第175條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12210.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12229.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那本案經過114年8月14日本會期本會第24次會議報告及詢答完畢決議另定期繼續審查 原於今日繼續審查請問在場委員是否要先進行大體討論或直接進入主條審查主條 直接進入主條 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12232.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12250.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好那我們併案審查刑事訴訟法71條第175條條文修正草案我們現在審查排序1條4是第71條有委員傅坤祺等25人提案及郭育琴等18人提案請問各位委員有意見要提出那黃委員先 黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12252.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12277.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
第一個這個針對有關於外籍人士刑事基本權和保障立法上面的內容我是贊成第二個兩個版本相互比較方向跟內容一致但是在法條的用語上面我基本上是建議用外籍人士那個外國籍人士在法律的程式沒有人用這種法律用語我是不曉得哪裡蹦出來什麼外國籍人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12278.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12302.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
不要在刑事訴訟法裡面去創設現行法律所沒有使用的法律概念也只有在兩個辦法裡面行政規則的層次有出現過外國籍人士這五個之過那你如果說在法律的層次上面像我們發展觀光條例基本上面在紫色的就全部都是用外籍人士不用外國籍人士這種法律概念第二個事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12303.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12321.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那如果是用外籍人士的話那個傅坤祺委員等人的提案我建議把外籍配偶是不是就刪除因為外籍配偶他基本上就在外籍人士的射程範圍當中沒有必要另外再把他並列要不然可能在解釋上面置之欲分 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12321.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12338.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以我是建議是不是就按照傅坤祺委員等25人提案被告為外籍人士時前項記載應加註該國文字或英文翻譯那175條的部分也使用相同的法律用於以上好 謝謝 那沈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12340.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12360.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好這個基本上就文字的部分我也是贊成黃委員剛剛所講的因為這個這個外籍配偶外籍人士這樣子並列那後面這個郭委員的提案裡面甚至外籍學生工作者這個都在列舉我認為是沒有必要就是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12361.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12385.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
只是這一條就應該就就就規範外籍人士就好了不過在執行上面我還是要想請法務部這邊來表示意見司法院這邊來表示意見就是說因為這個這個修法之後他會牽涉到未來這個這個你可能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12386.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12392.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
包括手勢尤其是手勢傳喚對於這個被告或嫌疑人他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12394.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12417.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
國籍不明的狀況在一開始會很清楚例如說看起來是本國人結果他是外籍人士結果會造成未來的這個程序不完備因為你沒有減負他們一開始可能並不理解並不理解說這個被傳換者或者是被告他究竟他是否具有外國籍甚至他的國籍也不明 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12419.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12438.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
至於在執行的問題上面我這邊修法文字裡面是指應加注該國文字或英文翻譯我覺得這個在執行上面的困難度應該就會降低一些因為它二則一要嘛就是該國文字要嘛就是英文翻譯你如果說一定要強制 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12439.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12468.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
規定要加速該國文字那可能我不曉得他是泰國人還是馬來西亞人或者是什麼其他小漁種的國家我們這上面就有困難但他如果說是二則一英文翻譯或該國文字我認為在執行上面你們現在會有什麼樣的困難是不是先請因為這個牽涉到法務部跟司法院一個是有關證人的傳喚一個是有關犯罪嫌疑人的傳喚是不是先請司法院先表示意見好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12470.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12496.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
等一下請法務部講一下好謝謝主席跟委員那個首先那個司法院呢那個是支持外籍人士權利的那個保障就是他們那個司法禁用權確實要特別那個保障這個我們完全支持那但是我們並不建議入法那基於兩個理由第一個就是說其實我們現在目前那個實務上我們對於那個傳票跟通知法院的傳票通知在外籍人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12498.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12520.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
還有那個宋達正書都有英文跟日文版本那在高院層級還有那個越南語的那個版本所以我們實務上現在目前其實都已經在進行在那個在就是如此在做了在執行那但是呢就是說那個第二點就是說會有一些那個特殊的情形就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12520.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12541.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
他一旦就是說沒有去加注入法之後以後入法之後在特殊情形一旦沒有做的話那他就會造成就是那個傳喚不合法就是後面的所有的這些效力就是都沒了那譬如說有時候檢察官起訴的時候他這時候是沒有去加注 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12542.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12560.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
他的身份的所以就是說法院並不知道他是外籍人士或者是說他是不是外籍人士本身都如果是要經過一個調查的話那會有一些那種特殊的情形立刻就是導致這種傳喚不合法的程序瑕疵我們認為說會有一點沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12563.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12572.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那個彈性那所以是建議就是說像這一類的那個權力保障呢他可以用那個行政指導還有那個實務的措施來加強那個執行來達到橫貧以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12578.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12597.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好 那法務部這邊也基本上是贊成司法院的立場那原則上就是說司法事務上 檢察事務上事實上傳票現在也有相關的英文版的這個傳票啦那是不是有必要用法律來就這種疏忽性的規範規範在我們的刑事疏忽根本大法裡面這個可以再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12598.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12621.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
另外就是在實務上也可能產生剛剛委員或司法院所產生的意見就在檢察官傳訊的時候他可能根本不知悉這個人他是一個外籍人士那一旦如果我們把他規定成應用外該國語言或英文的話他在不知悉的狀態之下他的傳喚的效率未來就可能會被增值了所以這實務上會產生一個困境如果說他沒有一個彈性的規範的話在實務上會對傳喚的效率會產生一些影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12628.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12654.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
好 黃委員他所涉及的關鍵問題就是你怎麼定性你給他的通知你界定的是什麼你界定的道理是認為他對於有沒有受到合理的通知那個通知的效力你如果把它界定成是一個程序保障的話那就不是用便利這兩個字就可以解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12655.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12682.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
你現在等於是以不惜犧牲對他的程序保障為代價在追求便利我打開天窗說亮話就是這個樣子啊我反正就給你一張紙啊你看不看得懂那是你家的事啊我給你就好啦你看不看得懂完全是你家的事啦我們在討論刑事訴訟程序當講到權力保障這四個字的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12684.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12713.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
你怎麼會用界定說那到底是方便不方便用這樣子的方式來迴避問題而且下面條文裡面都已經放寬了用英文都算了都已經退到這樣子的程度了還是我們現在的界定是為了避免程序上面的爭執我今天給他這個通知看不看得懂你家的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12716.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12742.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
看不看得懂是你家的事啦我反正給你就好了啦你看不懂是你家的事啦這個是我們在刑事訴訟程序上面健行通知應該有的觀念嗎好 那請問各位還有沒有其他意見要補充那就這個文字修正的部分沈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12744.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12770.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我想這個可能如果我說修法照我們文字修正通過之後你們未來的做法可能是必須要幾乎所有的這些傳喚都必須要準備英文翻譯變成一個知識公共因為你不知道這個人是不是外籍人士你去了他可能長得就跟我一樣但是我可能是美國籍我可能是日本籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12771.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12790.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
你不知道但是到時候我主張我是外國籍那你到當初的傳票你沒有給我英文版那你這過去這整個過去傳換程序瑕疵導致後面的這些程序的效力都發生影響所以實務上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12792.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12811.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我剛有講就是說如果今天是說必須附該國語言那這個我今天我就會認為說可能我們目前做不到但是如果說該國語言或英語英文兩種方式我覺得可能會增加我們的負擔但是對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12816.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12838.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這個被傳喚者的這個權利保障我覺得是有幫助的不過如果法務部跟這個司法院都有意見的話我覺得我們我是建議說我們就還是保留協商我們先把這個案件先處理但是保留協商好不好黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12841.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12861.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那個沈委員的意見我也尊重因為司法法治委員會我們向來的慣例就沒有用表決在處理既然今天沈委員代表民進黨黨團認為說這個案子先放著協商反正我們今天出委員會今天出委員會了以後接下來馬上要進入9月1號報到 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12863.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12890.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那真的要處理的話到10月再來處理也OK啦所以我覺得沒有必要在委員會用表決的方式來解決既然省委員代表民進黨黨團表達這樣的意見那我們是不是就條文就保留但是送出委員會這樣最起碼有進度嘛不要排了兩次還在原地打轉這樣也不好好 那請問各位還有沒有其他不同的意見好 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12894.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12909.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好 那71條的部分就已保留好 那我們現在審查排序二第175條有福昆區委員等25人提案及郭益群委員等18人提案好 請問就本條的部分各位有意見要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12912.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12938.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
就一起保留嘛好那就一樣就以保留好那本案逐條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢你據審查報告提請院會公決那本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳昭紀委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12940.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12966.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
黃委員不好意思 我最後只講一句話就是說針對有關於無期徒刑不得假釋的部分主席剛才是說要再開公聽會我基本上是尊重我基本上是尊重事實上我們上次在處理孽童的時候這件事情其實就已經早了公聽會的議題上面都有了大家也表示過意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12967.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12993.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我不希望開公聽會成為拖延的手段我不希望開公聽會成為拖延的手段特別是法務部你們去年怎麼跟社會講非常會做大外宣啊對不起我講錯了 非常會做大內宣很有魄力啊年底前推動修法 禁訴啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12995.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13018.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
去年講的話 年底以前啊現在已經八月底啦現在已經八月底啦東西都還沒有生出來跟你們講幾次啊跟你們講這件事情你們的部長官威很大還振振有詞啊去年不就是他面對媒體講的嗎自己對全民做的承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13024.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13050.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
到現在要繼續拖要拖到什麼時候拖到天荒地老嗎刑法是重新重新什麼意思我們拖越久我們拖越久社會期待無期徒刑不得假釋的制度就會延宕越久在這段時間當中就會有更多的重刑犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13052.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13080.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
他們即使被判的無期徒刑都是可以假釋的而這些人出來社會以後如果造成第二次的違憾請問誰要負責任?債範率很高欸債範率很高欸所以我尊重剛剛張偉的才是要他開一支公定會我OK |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13081.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13087.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
但我不希望成為程序上面拖延甚至是阻擋的藉口盡快處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13089.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13111.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
好 跟那個黃委員還有郭委員以及現場的報告就是有關公聽會的部分我會用最快的速度趕快排定那我希望說刑法的這個修正案我們能夠儘快的通過那因為今天我們希望說本來今天我們希望能夠送出委員會但是有許多委員認為說這個刑法這個修正其實知識體大 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13112.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13134.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那所以那我也覺得好那我們今天就再加開一次供應會事實上我們在五月的時候就已經有在供應會討論過那沒問題那我們再加開一次那我這邊會用最快的速度趕快再排定那希望這個修法能夠趕快過關好那今天本日的議程說討論事項都已經處理完畢那進行到此現在休息謝謝大家 |