| IVOD_ID |
16888 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16888 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-26 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-26T14:01:08+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-26T16:32:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:30:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64edc3a637bc827af53abc8cf6589aa0855b112bf0b47f4e58e38fd3230c2c7ac94d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-26T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
國際人權公約基礎概念及案例應用（事由：國際人權公約基礎概念及案例應用
國立臺北大學法律學系 高仁川 副教授） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:01:08 - 16:32:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
716.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
717.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
應該不會用到那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1806.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1832.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
各位同仁大家午安非常感謝大家來參加人事處辦理的訓練我們今天特別邀請到台北大學的高仁川副教授來為我們介紹國際人權公約的基礎概念跟案例的運用高副教授是美國加州大學伯克萊分校的法學博士經驗非常的豐富我們現在就以熱烈的掌聲來歡迎高副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1834.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1839.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
開始之前 我們還是一樣替院長製贈一份禮品給高副教授各位長官 各位同仁 大家午安 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1860.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1878.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
非常榮幸能夠到我們立法院來跟大家分享我個人對國際人權公約的一些了解當然講上課或者演講其實太過嚴肅了所以我想大家可以用比較輕鬆的一個方式我們彼此來做交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1879.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1893.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
首先還是要感謝我們立法院的邀請讓我有這個機會再來這個地方大家聽我這樣講會覺得很奇怪我沒有當過立法委員我回想起來在我第一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1894.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1920.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
要來立法院的時間是1988年1988年可能在座比較年輕的同仁可能還沒有出生我看到很多在座資深的長官同仁可能1988年也可能剛進來我們立法院服務沒有多久那時候是什麼樣的機緣會到立法院因為當時因為在高中社團擔任社長所以大家知道在那個時間台灣正好在民主化的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1921.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1935.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以很多高中社團的同學都躍躍欲試想要到立法院來旁聽所以我就辦了一個公文希望能夠到立法院來旁聽結果那一次很巧剛好是在審查國安無法 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1937.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1958.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
結果我們到立法院門口就看到很多警察因為當天爆發議事衝突好像會也開不成了所以我們雖然人到了立法院前面結果也只能就地解散同學們也很開心賺到了一天工假這是我第一次跟立法院的緣分到了2002年 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1959.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1984.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那時候我已經開始在國內教書當時在一些大學當講師那也一樣對於許多高中生或大學生立法院它不只是一個神聖的殿堂每天電視上看到的感覺會有很多精彩的畫面所以那時候我也帶學生來立法院旁聽在2002年比較近的一次應該是在2013年也就是太陽花學運發生的前一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1984.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2007.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那當時我已經回到台北大學任教所以就帶著大一的同學到我們立法院來參觀當時也有到議場去旁聽那這中間當然還有些機緣當然有些委員的公讀生算是兼職的一個工作吧但不是正式的工作所以偶爾也會在立法院有些這個走動 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2008.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2033.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但好像還沒有一次這麼正式的一個機會來跟大家做這樣一個不管是上課也好或者演講也好首先我還是自我介紹一下我目前在國立台北大學法律學院任教同時擔任我們法律學院的能源環境與人類社會研究中心的主任大家可以看到這個議題最近上禮拜我們才做關於核酸研議或者說重啓的一個公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2034.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2037.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以能源跟環境的議題還有未來人類社會面臨高科技像是AI這一類的一個挑戰其實是一個很重要的課題所以在我到台北大學任教幾年之後就成立了這個中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2048.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2069.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那大家看到我名字一定会觉得有点熟悉因为仁川这名字不就是韩国的机场吗那大家可能会觉得说那应该站在台前是一个来自韩国的歐巴怎么会是一个有点中年发福的老师呢那我要先澄清了我跟韩国是一点关系都没有取这个名字纯粹只是巧合 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2071.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2097.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
但这个巧合有时候我也在想也许是上天的一个安排最近很多韩国的啦啦队到台湾来所以仁川其实也是希望发挥这个角色的功能来当啦啦队在各种场合帮大家加油所以我希望平常大家在公务很繁忙之余的能够用个比较轻松的态度来参与今天的两个小时的一个课程中间我会稍微休息十分钟 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2098.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2122.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我自己的個人學經歷我就不再多做介紹了比較僥倖的是在當時能夠出國念書也要感謝納稅人讓我有這個機會能夠取得我們教育部一般公費留學考試的資格當時是能源環境法能源管理法這個學門所以談到能源或環境的議題其實我有很多的想法只不過這不是今天的主題我不能談太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2125.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2139.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那講到人權我想大家各自有不同的觀點或者是經驗我們也沒有辦法在兩個小時短短的時間把許多重要的國際人權公約做非常深入的介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2140.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2156.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
也不可能因為這兩個小時的上課上完之後好像大家就覺得我們臺灣對推動人權保障有很快速的一個進步這是不太可能的所以我也希望說藉由這兩個小時的時間跟大家做一些分享讓大家有一些新的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2158.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2179.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在看待有關人權問題的時候我們有些不同的想法我們彼此來進行一些交流所以我一開始就延續這個簡報在我過去很多關於不管是在國家文官學院或是在其他公務員訓練課程我所用的簡報來跟大家做進行的素材通常我會用這張照片來跟大家做一個開頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2180.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2195.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
这张照片大家手上都有讲义可以看得很清楚这个是一个非常稀松平常的画面也是我从新闻媒体上截取下来的如果不看这个文字大家可能也不晓得说这张照片要传递出什么样的讯息 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2197.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2216.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就跟我們日常生活所看到的街頭的影像沒有什麼太大的差異所以剛剛我有先跟我們處裡面的一些同仁交換過一些意見就是我們可以用比較輕鬆的方式彼此有些互動所以我也想先看看大家從這張照片看到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2218.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2242.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
麥克風以往在這個場合常常是各個委員爭相搶奪的重要物資所以希望大家不要害怕你可以就個人的觀點談一談你從這張照片看到了什麼樣的訊息跟大家做一些分享所以不要太緊張這是立法院的重要物資所以我不曉得有沒有同仁自願的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2245.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2258.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
講自願通常不太容易我們是不是可以請同仁跟我們分享一下從這張照片你覺得看到什麼樣的重要訊息是這一張照片拍攝者他所要傳遞的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2273.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2298.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你们还有分组我们可以把麦克风交给你觉得哪个同仁可以这不用结论很多事情也没有结论我们立法院经常开会就是没有结论有结论还可以再推翻不是吗所以不用担心这也不是结论就是提出自己的想法而已我们请比较年轻的同仁所以说你看到这张照片你看到什么样的讯息 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2301.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2328.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
大家一邊想我還是在強調我剛才那個重點我們在日常生活當中經常看到各種人事物如果我們還是用很平常的心態在看待這些人事物其實它沒有什麼好去說的可是如果我們可以有機會藉由今天這樣的交流我們可以從這一張很日常化的照片得到哪些訊息可能是跟人權有關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2331.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2335.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
可能是跟人權有關的或者是你覺得拍攝者他要強調的重點是什麼會不會是那個車道就是車道要表達那個車道就是從兩道然後一個左轉是 非常好沒有錯 這是標準答案但標準答案不見得只有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2353.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2376.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這張照片的拍攝者原本是要做一個宣導就是我們在路面的標線最近這幾年新增了一種標線就是它有中間黃色我不知道該怎麼稱呼它就是它有一個避車彎讓左轉的車能夠提早透過黃色的標線進入到中線的車道然後在這邊帶轉以往沒有的話那會造成什麼樣的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2381.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2410.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
很多車子他在中間車道準備帶轉後面的車子不曉得這是專門給左轉車帶轉的車道後面的車他可能是要直行結果卻因為中間帶轉的左轉車擋住了車道整個交通動線就因此受到影響甚至這些要直行的車只好再把方向盤往右打他又再切出來切出來中間偏 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2411.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2436.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
右的車道後面的車子如果不想讓那很容易就會發生交通事故所以這張照片要凸顯的是我們可以透過交通標線的改進提升交通運作的順暢度同時減少交通事故的發生那這件事情重不重要呢當然重要因為這幾年政府不斷在提倡 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2438.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2453.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
用路人的权益特别是行人的人身安全但提升行人的人身安全除了加重处罚之外其实我们也可以有别的方式比如说透过交通标线或耗制甚至这几年的科技执法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2453.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2478.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
可能在座有不少同仁跟我一樣也收到科技執法的罰單收到的時候就覺得怎麼這個地方也有科技執法那個罰的都滿重的我要說明的是除了處罰之外我們也可以透過這樣的標線設計來減少交通事故所導致的人身還有財務的損失這對人權保障有沒有幫助當然有幫助所以我才會跟大家講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2479.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2502.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我們未必要講得那麼刻板一定要修改什麼樣的法條從條文去看從很多這個很嚴肅的這個政策去處理這種日常生活的問題光是一個交通標線如果我們可以參考其他國家或者多一些巧思其實也可以有些不同的一個改變這就是小地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2503.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2518.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以這張照片確實沒有錯同仁很有眼光馬上看出這張照片所要傳遞的主要訊息除此之外還有沒有其他你覺得在這張照片可以看到跟人權有關的一些訊息呢麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2526.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2548.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我在國家公民學院上課我常說應該要讓來演講的講師有個權利就是說有回答的話我們可以給他加分我們這只是演講也不考試沒有什麼加分所以沒有什麼積極的誘因我手上應該多準備一些獎品才有誘因來讓大家主動回答從這張照片可以看到什麼跟人權有關的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2561.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2568.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
大家就开始想破头 想要找出什么答案没有那么困难的啦你有没有看到什么呢没有 我曾经在我们警察单位上过这个课程也用这张照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2586.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2615.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
有交通警察一看这张照片里面有三辆违规停放的车辆可以开罚单所以职业的训练会让我们有不同的敏感度他一看就知道哪里有三辆我是看不出来了那很厉害所以我们可以发现什么呢我们各自的工作经验专业训练会影响到我们看待事物的观点所以我们才要交流对不对 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2616.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2642.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那我们还看到什么呢麦克风请右边没有人行道 很好所以大家其实会受我刚才的提示引导好像就是从有关行的安全用户的权益来看这个没有人行道所以行人怎么样来使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2643.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2660.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
相關的道路設施他沒有考慮到人行道那可能會走到棋樓那大家都知道台灣的棋樓有些民眾為了要防範淹水自己會墊高所以高高低低有時候老人家小孩不小心可能還會跌倒那 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2661.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2685.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
甚至對於身障同胞而言他怎麼叫在高高低低的騎樓裡面通行很困難所以他被迫可能只好到路邊路邊講到電動輪椅或者是手推的輪椅可是路邊又違規停放的車輛所以你是不是看到我們要從不同人的角度來看待道路交通設施的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2686.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2715.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
有沒有考慮到一般的用路人或者是身障人士他被迫要到路面的時候路邊來使用他輪椅的時候不是更危險嗎所以我們剛才講人權除了從一般的食衣住行娛樂來做觀察之外也需要從不同人群或者我們講不同不要講特殊也許是年齡也許是他有身心障礙種種的不同的角度來看待他們的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2716.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2718.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以这也是一点还有什么样的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2719.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2748.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
观点可以从这张照片看出来所以我说这张照片我希望能够传递一个重要的讯息提升人权保障意识促进相关法治与政策的发展我们也可以在这边经常去看每次立法院提案的时候委员们对于人权保障意识还有相关法治政策发展的态度如何我刚刚跟处长聊天说大家在立法院工作也许哪天退休的时候可以写一本书叫做《国会建文录》 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2750.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2767.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
甚至把它改編成劇本那應該會滿暢銷的所以我們可以看看我們的國會議員是不是關心這些人權保障法治跟政策的落實除了剛才所講的人行行人道的一個設計之外還有沒有什麼樣的訊息大家可以從這張照片看出來的沒有紅綠燈有紅綠燈只是在旁邊而已很小 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2781.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2804.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
有道路縮減 有一些是有道路縮減第三個路口 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2813.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2831.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
有蛮多 在前面这个好 给你 很好我这是十几年前的照片差很多 但是没有P图对 中间你按 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2839.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2848.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
他是在转区他就是对向他跟这边一样就是说这边不是有个中央车道左转吗他也是一样他在这边要左转这个车子要所以相对的设计 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2853.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2871.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對 這邊見到話所以有時候路面標線變得更複雜也很容易出狀況改來改去我們也不曉得不過我剛才講大家不要被我前面一開始的訊息給影響了說我們一直都聚焦在談到人權從行的角度來談人權還有很多的觀點我上課的時候有朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2877.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2891.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有學員跟我說 他看到168他看到168就想到他昨天沒有做168今天沒有做168168有沒有效 我做過168有效 什麼叫168大家可以上網查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2892.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2920.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
当然这不是正题168你说跟人的健康有关系因为瘦身我去年有努力做168为什么要努力做168呢因为我要跟白沙豚妈祖进香因为我妈妈是白沙豚是她的故乡所以我记得那时候为了要进香我足足168两个月真的有效而且要减少淀粉类就减少淀粉 节食 运动一个月可以瘦3到4公斤 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2921.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2945.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
但这不是今天的主题其实同仁看到168就开始想到这个是一个警讯那应该是对我而言但要看的是168出宫我讲的是168出宫有没有各位同仁我们不会请你回答你有没有做到七弟朋友做过出宫的我相信可能有的话也是非常非常少 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2946.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2961.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
为什么要讲出工呢因为他没有办法找到一个比较好的待遇可以有比较稳定的职场工作条件的保障所以他去做出工我有亲戚朋友他做出工那就是可能三天打鱼两天赛网不见得每天都有工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2963.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2990.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以在社会最底层的人他恐怕没有这样的机会把他所面临到的人权问题他生活的困境来向外面或者是政府来反映所以我常会觉得说在这里168出工对于我们立法院的同仁而言可能比较没有办法实际的透过什么样的政策去了解他们的需求可是在我所授课的一些公务员当中他们有些是社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2991.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3008.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他们可能以往也不太注意到这一块所以我们就可以想一想是不是可以从社工或劳动人权的角度来思考说我们对于社会底层的工人是不是有给予比较更多的相关职场工作条件的保障或社会福利的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3009.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3035.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那这是从这张照片我们经常会在路上看到168出工可是我们却没有想到从事出工工作的同胞他们所需要的人权待遇是什么样的这个人权待遇能够获得改善那我再问大家一个问题为什么要叫168出工不会想要瘦身他应该没有时间想到瘦身的问题他只要想到工作那为什么会叫做168出工我以前没有想过 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3038.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3060.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
大家觉得为什么要叫168出宫刚刚我隐约听到一个声音可不可以大声一点对 一路发来个同仁的我们给他鼓掌一下好不好这个真的是一路发没有错 我后来听到一个大家说我不要回答就好回答就有麦克风我只是想说既然有掌声我们可以 不要 不要麦克风 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3061.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3088.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
真的一路發所以會取168也有它的原因的我後來才知道為什麼我會知道因為在國家文化學院上課的時候有一個學員他曾經當過出宮的宮頭了宮班的宮頭所以他知道這也是我孤陋寡聞大家一講我才想原來如此叫做一路發還有沒有什麼樣的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3091.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3118.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以我才會講說我們經常在各種場合走動 生活可是我們沒有想到說其實在我們周遭有太多的人權議題我們可能忽略了我把握點時間大家是不是有看到有飲料 隨手飲還有琳瑯滿目的招牌琳瑯滿目的招牌跟人權有沒有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3120.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3122.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
有關係啊因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3123.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3152.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
招牌雖然是一種創意促進商業活動吸引消費者的做法可是我們對於招牌的管理是很困難的問題有些民眾會覺得政府最好不要管這是我們國家的特色零零種種的各種招牌可是萬一發生火災的時候那就麻煩了這些招牌會不會是違法設置擋住了逃生通道甚至導致消防人員要進去救火 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3153.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3170.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
但是卻出不來所以對於這種消防安全來看廣告招牌的管理這跟人權保障有關係它涉及到的是萬一發生火災的時候人身財產安全還有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3171.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3195.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我們如果從營業者的角度來看這是他的營業自由該不該介入加以管制曾經有地方政府想要管但後來並沒有成功因為遭致太多的反彈所以我們發現即便我們要推動人權保障做一些改變有時候也不是那麼容易的會有不同的聲音跟看法除此之外有一個學院很特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3197.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3226.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
很厲害 他一看就說講座這張照片是在南投埔里拍的大家一聽我講就知道他是一個辦刑事案件的警察我說你怎麼知道我都不曉得在那拍他說這是在南投埔里的他說他們上刑事科學油門課就是從地理環境的一些資訊來判斷這個地方是在哪裡所以他看到什麼呢人情味檳榔 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3229.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3253.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
在座我不曉得有沒有人吃檳榔應該很少我們不會去注意檳榔叫什麼牌子這個警察他說仁慶味檳榔是從中部大概彰化還有南投那一帶比較靠近山區的地方開始發跡的所以它後來就形成中部滿有特色的一個品牌叫仁慶味檳榔 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3254.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3284.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那这是他根据他形式科学的一些训练他能够判断这张照片是哪里拍的后来科技进步了有一个学员他就直接用手机一拍搜寻就查出来所以我们发现人权会随着科技工具的改变而有不同的一个影响他可以很快知道说照片是哪里拍的也可能很快就知道说你人在哪里所以我们才会讲说人权保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3285.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3292.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
其實有很多不同的層面不是只有行的問題也包括勞工人權的問題包括科技人權的問題零零總總講到檳榔 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3297.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3323.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
大沒有經驗 我也沒有經驗有一年有位德國的教授來台灣演講我邀請他來我也安排他到我們台東的東華大學去演講那一次我特別邀請我一個學生他曾經是台商比較能言善道 個性也比較活潑我就請台商同學陪同我去招待這位來自德國的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3324.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3343.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這位學者在花蓮東華大學演講完之後隔天他就要搭飛機回德國我們是趕飛機但在趕飛之前還是要從花蓮坐火車回到台北就在搭這種小的接送巴士的路上經過路邊有在賣檳榔的幾個攤位 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3346.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3373.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我剛才講檳榔 大家可能都沒有吃過我這個台商學生就很調皮他就跟那個德國學者講說這個是很有名的台灣口香糖你要不要試看看這個德國學者其實是充滿好奇心的他雖然來過台灣幾次還是第一次去花蓮他就想說好 台灣口香糖是什麼我這個學生就都不跟他講然後學生就跑下去買了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3374.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3395.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
拉著我要我也一起嘗嘗我是打死不從打死不從因為我不知道那到底是什麼味道我也不敢冒這個風險因為萬一吃到什麼叫倒吊子的那個風險很高這個德國教授看我抵死不從他更好奇了這個台灣口香糖到底是什麼味道他就把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3397.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3418.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
放到嘴巴咬了幾口他很想吐出來很想吐出來然後他就問我這個台上學生說這到底是什麼他可以吐出來嗎然後我這個學生說你要吐也可以你也可以吞下去總之他本來很疲憊的身體吃了這一口檳榔之後覺得人就亢奮起來了他問我說這個東西是合法的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3420.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3444.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我说这是违法的他一听到违法他就知道德国人很守法听到违法他就很紧张他吃了违法的东西我就跟他讲说开玩笑的这个怎么会是违法的违法还在路边可以买得到他就比较放松了结果他吃了台湾槟榔之后他就问我的学生说这个可不可以带回德国他想带给德国他的学生尝一尝我为什么要讲这个小故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3445.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3473.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
不同的國家基於文化背景飲食習慣的差異我們對很多事物的了解跟感知觀點也不見得相同這就是為什麼我們今天要談人權的問題我們為什麼要談國際人權公約我們也要有憲法為什麼我們要去看國際人權公約因為從國際的觀點來看每個國家他的文化背景法治等等的差異可能也要 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3475.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3499.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
彼此互相借鏡跟學習所以我們可以從國際人權公約來想一想說我們台灣在推動人權保障的部分既有的法律跟政策有什麼不足那國外有什麼樣的不錯例子可以作為借鏡的那講到這個檳榔真的是其他國家我也沒看過了所以如果你將來招待外國朋友來台灣的時候你可以跟他講這叫台灣檳榔讓他嘗一嘗好 那我們回到正題 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3501.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3525.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這是前不久的一個訊息今年4月的新聞報導當然我要先聲明我不是說我引述哪個報紙就表示我支持特定報紙的立場我要先做這個澄清只是剛好看到而已防止疲勞駕駛遊覽車全面加裝駕駛識別設備打算明年元旦上路我特別把重要的部分標示黃色交通部修法要求遊覽車全面裝設駕駛身份識別設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3529.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3544.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
為什麼呢因為我們從過去發生的交通事故發現有些駕駛時間工作時間太長所以他有時候無法控制車輛在安全的速限以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3546.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3557.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
甚至可以透過GPS的監控系統來查一查他們進行的路段車輛有沒有預期 沒有檢驗這些會發出警告這要傳回公路局的遊覽車客運動態資訊管理系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3561.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3589.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以我們看到不管是遊覽車或是市區內的公車仍然會有一些交通事故的發生我們可以通過科技設備的改進減少這一類交通事故的發生所以這就是一個進步這是一個進步這當然涉及到說相關的遊覽車業者他的經營成本會增加可是從人權的角度來看這當然是重要的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3591.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3613.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以什麼叫人權呢這是我在學校上課有時候會希望同學自己去看一看國家人權博物館談到台灣人權改變的一個歷史進程在我們的一些官方版本的教育素材當中都會提到什麼叫人權作為人基本不可或缺的權利叫做人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3614.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3624 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那我常觉得这样的说明有说跟没说是差不多的啦所以我习惯把重点放在这个字全这个字全这个字呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3624.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3646.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
大家如果去問我們國會議員他們的體會跟我們不一樣他們可能認為權當然很重要我要取得權力我才有辦法實踐理想或者是點點點這個字我把它分三個面向來談就是權力 力量的力還有利益的利另外一個是比較少人談的古人講的權變 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3648.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3668.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以前面這兩個觀點大家都很熟悉就是國家擁有公權力不管是行政立法司法都有公權力所以國家擁有公權力目的是什麼保障人民的基本權利可是我們要防止國家公權力違法違憲侵害人民的權利所以需要有一個標準畫出一條線 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3669.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3697.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那除了避免國家公權利不管是行政 立法 司法部門它違法違憲 侵害人民權益之外我們也期待說我們透過憲法種種基本權利的條款來保障人民有這樣的基本權利請求國家給予各種資源照顧 補助款等等所以這個關係權利跟權力之間的關係很重要就是法規範的標準是什麼這個標準就是我們法律在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3698.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3707.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
这个规则法规则或是法原则那这个我就不再多说但是全面这个部分是什么呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3708.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3735.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
权变的部分古人讲就是要通权达变也就是虽然我们有规则有原则但我们知道法律条文都会有所谓的但书就是例外所以什么时候该有例外例外该怎么设计其实就意味着我们要懂得权变但这其实是一个很大的学问我想大家在立法院经常看到委员们在讨论就是哪些对象放到规范的范围适用对象范围哪些要除外但书要怎么写这经常在辩论 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3736.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3760.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我在底下放的这个图大家应该比较有印象因为才发生没几年了虽然我们可能已经淡忘了不少就是新冠肺炎的发生新冠肺炎从2020年开始到2023大概三年多的时间当然它现在还没有完全结束只不过说影响不再像几年前那么大在新冠肺炎发生之初 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3761.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3779.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
可能我們也還不太曉得究竟它會有多嚴重的一個後果不過當時我剛好在某個政府機關上課那時候很怕會傳染給大家因為我不曉得這是什麼樣的疾病所以上課的時候必須戴著口罩 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3780.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3804.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那在座还有不少同学也戴着口罩我记得我第一次戴着口罩上课的时候真的是快喘不过气了不过后来就已经习惯了所以那时候我在上课的时候差不多是2020年的2月我记得我在上课前放了这张图这张图后来我们在很多网路上都可以找得到当时我在国外的公共卫生医疗网站看到这张图的时候我觉得非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3805.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3825.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那隨著後來疫情的發展國內的許多公共衛生醫療專家不斷的告訴我們一些觀念大家現在對這張圖要傳遞的訊息就變得非常了解了可是在新冠肺炎剛開始發生的時候其實大家不了解這張圖到底在講什麼這張圖的標題叫做raising the line |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3826.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3853.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
while flattening the curve就是你要提高这条线从底下的这条虚线大家手上有奖励可以看一下从这个虚线拉高到上面比较深的这条虚线与此同时还要做什么事情呢让这个曲线从比较陡峭的曲线变成比较平缓的曲线我们要来说明这个虚线跟曲线的意思是什么这个虚线的意思呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3854.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3861.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
是指current health system capacity底下的虚线指的是当前医疗体系的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3864.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3885.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
公共卫生的医疗网站它说国家 政府在当时新冠肺炎发生的时候要赶快做的事情其中之一就是要提高医疗体系的量能从底下的这条续线往上提高所以它写Goal for increased health system capacity把医疗体系的量能能够提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3886.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3915.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
所以我們再去回想新冠肺炎造成全球人類的死亡跟經濟的損失可以算是20世紀之後我們前所未見的除了戰爭以外所以我們可以問問家裡面的長輩爺爺奶奶 外公外婆可能他們的人生經驗也沒有碰過影響這麼劇烈的這種急性傳染病所以要提高醫療體系的量能大家可以回想當時政府做了什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3916.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3934.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
不是口罩国家队吗那要赶快制造口罩到处去找哪里有疫苗买疫苗要不要打预防针或者是我们要有治疗的药物还有隔离病房 病床甚至出入境的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3936.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3964.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這些其實是什麼呢有些是醫療體系量能的提升包括醫藥人員的出入自由的管制另外有些可能是其他對民眾衛生習慣的一個提醒或者防疫措施的一個作為所以我們可以看到其中一個就是醫療體系量能的提升曲線的部分再來看一下曲線他說如果不採取一些protective measures |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3966.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3985.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
確診的案件還有死亡的個案數目就會不斷的增加突然的增加是像這條曲線一樣Cases without protective measures如果我們可以採取一些防護性的措施戴口罩或者是不要出入容易傳染的公眾聚集的場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3985.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4012.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那Cases with protective measures采取一些保护措施包括出入境的管制那传染的速度跟确诊使用的人数就不会增加的那么快它会变成比较平缓的曲线这有什么重要性比较平缓的曲线不要让我们的医疗体系崩溃这一句话我们是不是在疫情的期间常听到政府这么说每天开记者会不管中央或地方不要让医疗体系崩溃医疗体系崩溃的话那就很麻烦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4013.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4024.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以从这张图我们回想一下整个新冠肺炎发生的这个历程从对岸的武汉后来传到欧洲意大利到英国英国一开始做什么事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4027.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4044.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
英國一開始做什麼事情佛系防疫有沒有西方社會覺得這沒什麼就跟感冒一樣結果歐洲很慘那我們為什麼會有這種警覺心因為我們在SARS發生的時候我們幾乎沒有得到任何國際的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4044.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4071.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以我們的警覺性會比較高所以我們對這種急性傳染病我們的警覺性比較高政府是嚴肅看待所以雖然中間當然有些措施引起不少的爭議但至少大致的方向就是循著這張圖在處理的所以我才會在今天這一門課跟大家講說我們歷經了新冠肺炎這麼影響非常大的一個國際性的急性傳染疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4072.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4100.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
總是要留些經驗跟教訓來提醒我們自己所以在這張圖裡面我左邊就用一些文字敘述為了要防止新冠肺炎的擴散提供充足醫療照護資源根據醫療公衛專家研究建議各國政府要採取預防措施來使病毒擴散的速度能夠減緩同時也要提升醫療體系的量能避免病患人數超出醫療體系的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4102.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4125.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這可以算是指導著許多國家度過疫情很關鍵的一個原則 一個理念各個國家是否貫徹跟各個國家的政府態度也有關係所以在這張圖我在左邊有兩個術語比例原則大家可能都很熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4126.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4152.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
成為公務員大概都會對於行政程序法多少些認識對於一般我們在進行違憲審查所講的比例原則大家都聽過了這個老生常談比例原則講的是手段跟目的的關係手段必須要有助於目的的達成各種有效的手段當中必須選擇干預限制人民最小的手段那手段所造成失憶的犧牲不能大於目的所要追求的公益可是我要問大家一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4154.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4170.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
比例原則在想的是手段跟目的的關係在它第二個子原則也就是所謂各種有效的措施手段當中要選擇干預限制人權最小的手段如果我們把它放在新冠肺炎發生那個時期來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4171.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4191.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們只選擇一個手段夠嗎只要大家戴口罩或者是限制國人出入境的自由回國的時候要做隔離措施要到隔離的處所也許是七天或兩個禮拜如果只採取一個單一的措施夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4193.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4210.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這是我想國內很多法學者在思考新冠肺炎跟法治衝突的時候很多還是站在比較傳統的比例人的角度在看待新冠肺炎所帶來的挑戰我個人有些不同的想法我覺得新冠肺炎它是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4211.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4240.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
不是我們過去經驗所能夠了解的一種急性傳染疾病面對這種特殊狀況恐怕只採取一種措施是不夠的所以對比例原則我覺得在經歷過新冠肺炎之後我們應該有些新的想法如果我們說人權很重要生命 健康 財產這些都是人權要保障的範圍對象 它很重要可是在一些關鍵的時刻我們恐怕不能只仰賴單一的措施跟手段簡而言之 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4240.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4243.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
就是古人所讲的要多管齐下 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4244.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4271.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
多管齐下那我觉得今天我们台湾在处理很多问题的时候有时候也要想想事实上是要多管齐下不管是在犯罪的防治或者前不久有很多婴幼儿受到虐待的事件他可能有很多的环节都出了问题我们也不能只想到某一种措施那就够了所以我觉得新冠肺炎对于比利原则的冲击可以让我们去想一想比利原则他所预设的立场 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4271.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4296.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好像是隱含著只能選擇一個手段而已但我很懷疑在特殊狀況之下這樣一個單一手段足夠嗎所以我覺得是不是要想想多管齊一下另外在這張圖的左邊有一個英文單字每日一字這個Nudge Theory大家都知道這理論那什麼叫Nudge有沒有學員有沒有我們同仁知道第一個單字的意思的可不可以舉個手 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4298.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4320.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
大家都很怕被我问问题我应该请我们处长可以让我有这个权利等一下又回答问题正确的同仁我们应该给他一些礼物我不能逾越我的权利我不能开口说大话所以还是先问大家什么叫Nudge有没有学经济的同仁背景是经济学的应该要 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4322.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4334.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
如果是經濟學的話大家會曉得這個字這個Nudge N-U-D-G它的意思就是輕推用手肘輕輕的推所以這個字加上theory直白的翻譯就是輕推理論 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4336.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4353.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
如果沒有記錯應該是在2014還是2015年諾貝爾經濟學獎的得主Richard Thaler他跟美國哈佛大學一個著名的法學教授叫Kate Sunstein他們曾經寫過不少的文章跟書籍這個Richard Thaler他在提倡一個理論就叫做清推理論 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4354.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4382.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
什么叫清推理论呢就是我们可以用比较少的成本甚至不要用强力的干涉管制措施就可以达成我们目的的话那我们应该要思考用这样的方式会不会比较好所以他把这样的理论就称为清推理论用手轴轻轻的推家里的小朋友就会赶快在暑假结束之前把作业写好那当然是不太可能的他可能还是抱着iPad电脑在那边继续上网 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4383.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4410.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那你可能就要采取更强烈的措施如果他还没有办法自治的话那如果相反的你给他一些诱因轻轻推一下说你如果在这个礼拜五之前把暑假作业写完带你去吃大餐或看什么样的表演也许他就愿意了所以讲清推理论他不是只有用这种干涉限制人权的角度来思考各种政府的措施他也包括提供一些诱因 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4411.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4426.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
轻轻一推那人民就愿意配合所以Nature Theory大家来想一下在疫情发生的期间我们政府有没有采用一些清推理论跟他很相似的一些建议或者是指引呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4428.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4455.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
指引这两个字大家常听说吗指引如果严格来讲它不是法律它是不具有强制力的建议如果按照我们行政程序法的说明它就是行政指导那这一类的指引呢虽然不具有强制力但它有没有效果有时候会有效果所以我们讲所谓的清推理论在疫情的时候我们的卫生主管机关是不是发布很多的指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4456.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4478.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那我们民众素养比较高讲白话的人说我们怕死我们很紧张所以民众就会自愿配合是不是有一个在公共场合你要结账的时候或者在排队的时候有地上画的一些红点保持社交距离几公尺那就可以减少被传染的风险 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4479.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4507.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以我們在疫情期間有很多的指引包括戴口罩或者是地上畫一些保持社交距離我們也都很願意配合但在其他國家民眾他們自由自在慣了他可能覺得這就是政府的限制甚至連口罩他們都不戴那他們就要承擔一些後果我們在疫情的時候還有什麼樣的措施跟清退理論是很類似呢有幾次嚴重到都考慮要封城了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4508.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4512.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
有没有印象曾经有一个电视谈话性节目 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4513.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4540.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我印象很深他当时找了一个新加坡的医生岳阳连线这个新加坡的医生这个新加坡的医生是我们台湾医学院培养出来的这个新加坡的医生说就是要封城就是要封城大张旗鼓的说就是要封城我心里面都在想说我们台湾跟新加坡不一样新加坡做得到我们台湾如果封城的话那经济损失多少我们怎么封 会不会有漏洞做得到吗最后我们有没有封城不管是台北或新北 没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4543.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4556.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我们没有封城虽然有些地方首长本来有考虑后来我们没有封城如果是封城那就是一个非常强烈的干预人民行动自由人身自由的措施可是我们政府做什么呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4558.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4574.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這時候疫情很嚴重了我們希望某些禮拜六禮拜日民眾盡量不要外出包括一些市場也不要去採買了所以我們看到有一些疫情很嚴峻的時刻從空中拍的空照圖路上幾乎沒有什麼車也沒有什麼人 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4577.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4588.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這個跟封城是幾乎同樣的效果然後疫情就稍微得到舒緩所以我們發現這個清退理論能不能成功跟國民素質是有關係的 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4590.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4613.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以在國外的學者他們研究也是如此所以才會在疫情我們台灣的表現至少某一些層面得到很多國際的肯定這是不容易的一件事情所以為什麼要講這個我們講國際人權公約不是說只有我們跟國外學習我們台灣也有做得不錯的範例可以給國外作為參考的這個倒不需要妄自菲薄 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4615.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4641.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那接著來跟大家分享一個觀點看待人權問題國際人權公約它只是文本它只是一些公約它要經過轉換的方式變成國內法或是國內的很多政策那在談到這些國際人權公約以及我國國內的法律跟政策如何做一個相應的調整之前我們還是要想想說這背後比較更深層的容易把握的一些觀點或者是理論是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4642.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4662.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以我剛剛講的關於疫情裡面所提到的這個圖清退理論或者傳統比例原則跟比例原則是不是要有更多的反省都是可以作為我們進步思考的一個方向接下來這個方向我把它稱為是供應鏈的觀點Perspective of Supply Chain供應鏈這個英文單字很簡單大家都看得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4664.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4687.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
这是我美国加州大学博莱分校的指导教授,他叫Daniel Farber,大家都可以去查,他的名字很好记,丹尼尔丹尼尔,姓是Farber。他在2009年曾经写了一篇文章,这篇文章的主题是Adapting to Climate Change,Who Should Pay?这个因应气候变迁,谁应当承担减碳或者调试因应的相关成本。 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4688.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4709.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
他提出了幾個有關成本分配的有趣思考方向,包括Beneficiary's Pay,受益者負擔,Emitter's Pay,排放者負擔,或是Public Pay,公眾負擔,或是贏家負擔。他這篇文章是我剛到美國念書的時候讀了一篇,他的著作之一,他的許多著作其中的一篇,我覺得啟發性很大。 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4711.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4728.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我觉得甚至我们在处理很多问题的时候都可以从这个角度来想一想我想请教大家什么叫做受益者负担气候变迁会不会有受益者有啊气候变迁如果对本来不能利用的土地因为全球暖化 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4729.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4754.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那它可能以前是北极附近的冰洞的洞源结冰的洞源它可能融化之后这底下的矿产可能就可以运用所以有些人会得到利益排放者负担这个就是我们最了解的排放权交易或者是碳税因为你制造污染所以这是我们台湾经常在处理有关碳税或碳肥的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4755.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4782.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
Public Pays那到處就是公眾來承擔比如說超出這個排放者能夠承擔的部分就用政府的預算來處理那贏家負擔呢什麼叫Winner's PayWinner's Pay就是根據你在整個氣候變遷的過程當中如果你是更有能力的人那你要負擔更大的責任來減少碳排放所以在我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4785.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4809.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
再生能源發展條例有一個條文最近這幾年修正就提到說如果是你的企業他是用電大戶他可能就要考慮自己興建再生能源設備或者是要去購買其他的再生能源憑證這就是所謂的Winners Pay因為你是用電大戶你比較其他中小企業你是用電大戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4810.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4823.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
整個企業的經營上因為比較有能力來負擔這些成本所以我們可以從這幾個方向來思考它其實會反映在我們的很多法律跟政策上面如果從這個角度來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4824.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4852.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我底下加了一個這次我們演講的過程當中我加了這個標題叫做河山延譯還是重啟理論上它已經是停譯了應該是重啟才對 而不是延譯到底該不該延譯還是重啟有很多的課題上禮拜我們才看到公投這個公投當然比例大家各自有不同的解讀我想請教大家是如果河山重啟或延譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4854.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4877.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們還要維持在原本的地點的話在屏東我們要不要想想說以往核能電廠都是國營事業為什麼會有核酸延營或重啟的問題講直白一點就是我們的高科技產業半導體產業還有所謂的AI需要有更龐大的用電需求如果從這個角度來看在很多國家它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4878.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4895.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
核能公司並不是國營的能源公司而是私人經營的能源公司所以我們有沒有辦法去想想說既然是因為這些高科技產業AI的企業他們需要用更多的電那核能這一塊要不要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4897.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4923.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
國家結合這些高科技業者我們就來成立核能新的核能公司它不是在台電主管的一個範圍而是要由其他民間的資金來投入因為民間資金其實還蠻有錢的我看一下合碩它好像前六個月的總營收就已經五千多億了大家知道我在講董事長合碩最近董事長聲量很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4925 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4933.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
五千多億是什麼概念我們中央政府總共算一年多少錢大概七八年前是兩兆出頭現在是三兆出頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4935.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4962.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
三兆出头光合作它的营收大家不能只看营收要看它的经营力我们就举单一家公司它就5000多亿前6个月那是不是要让高级产业也来参与核电的经营这样来分散我们国营事业的经营压力这个想法到目前为止我们有看过在报章里上有什么样的讨论可是我们看到包括德国包括日本美国很多核电公司是民营的核电公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4963.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4983.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個想法我拋出來給大家想一想其實核三營業重啟還有很多的問題可以討論我在這邊要講的是說受益者負擔因為有了核電我們的高級產業AI產業才可以持續發展他們得到更多的經濟收益甚至Winners Pay他們是贏家他們交友能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4984.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5006.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以這個觀點讓大家想一想也許你會有興趣來讀這篇文章其實不難你只要把它下載現在AI很方便這篇文章丟進去把它翻成中文了所以提供這個觀點讓大家思考我要講的是供應鏈的觀點能源很重要能源才有辦法去從事各種生產還有經濟活動供應鏈的觀點底下我要談的是這號解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5008.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5034.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
这一号解释 788号的解释当时我们还没有改成宪法诉讼法还是由司法院大法官的这个违宪审查方式做成这个解释这个解释是近几年来少数有关环境法的一号大法官解释主要涉及到废弃物清理法回收清除处理费问题谁有负担回收清除处理费所以我为什么要谈这一号解释呢我在提醒大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5036.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5064.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
印證的是什麼叫供應鏈的觀點這要解釋涉及的爭點包括這個廢棄物經理法沒有在法律明定誰要繳交回收清除處理費業者的範圍是誰法律沒有明定但是他授權給主管機關來定可不可以用行政命令的方式來定這樣有沒有違反法律保留原則這是其中一個爭點大法官結論是說這個並沒有違反法律保留原則用行政命令來定業者的繳費業者範圍也是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5065.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5085.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
另外一個主要的整點也就是在這邊我所討論的環境部 以前是環保署他用行政命令來公告容器商品製造業者而不是容器製造業者作為繳費責任業者有沒有違反評的原則大家看到這裡會覺得很繞口什麼叫做容器商品製造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5086.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5106.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
什麼叫做容器製造業容器商品就是大家買的瓶裝飲料賣飲料的業者 你就懂了台灣沙士或者是什麼樣的茶飲賣飲料的業者就是容器商品製造業者容器製造業者是製造外包裝可能是鐵罐 鋁罐或者是寶特瓶的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5108.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5137.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
在主管機關他公告是以容器商品製造業而不是製作容器的這我們違反品的原則我想請教大家我們先不管大法官怎麼說不用看資料也不用管環境部他在命令裡面是怎麼規定的你覺得繳回收清除處理費應該是由賣飲料的業者來繳回收清除處理費還是製作飲料外包裝的業者要繳回收清除處理費 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5139.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5159.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
大家想一想先不用看獎勵的答案了你覺得是賣飲料業者要繳回收清除處理費的麻煩舉個手我們動一動四五票你認為是製作外包裝容器鐵罐 鋁罐還有寶特瓶的這些業者要繳回收清除處理費的麻煩舉個手好像比較多 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5161.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5174.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們傳統的觀念確實如此大家都覺得汙染者付費嘛所以你製造外包裝 鐵罐 鋁罐寶特瓶到最後要回收那當然是容器製造業者一定要繳回收清除處理費可是大法官說 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5175.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5199.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
他贊同環境部的命令就是要由容器商品製造業者來繳費就是賣飲料業者來繳費我們再看大法官的解釋理由怎麼說之前這張照片是兩年前2023年我在日本某個大學演講的時候跟日本的學生分享的一個照片大家都知道台灣的民產 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5201.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5204.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
可能没喝过的人很少但至少都听过这个牌子 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5206.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5232.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
博朗咖啡 維大利還有保利達B我在跟日本學者分享這張照片的時候幫我翻譯的日本學者經常來台灣然後他跟我也還蠻熟的他說他也可以介紹同樣的這些刺激性飲料日本有哪些品牌比我們更多我一聽就會心一笑因為很顯然的日本的學者跟台灣的學者都是很過勞的所以他跟我一樣都經常喝這些刺激性飲料所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5236.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5244.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這張照片這是一個禮盒包裝這都是刺激性飲料保麗達冰有沒有人喝過有喝過的舉手 謝謝還有大家還常喝你們在立法院辛苦了為什麼會喝保麗達冰提神保生 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5259.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5287.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
想嘗試而已 對很多是想嘗試而已我從來沒有喝過我也不曉得那什麼味道也就是兩年前我跟白沙土的媽祖進鄉的時候我表弟他是海軍陸戰隊退伍他走了十幾年他的身材仍然維持得很標準那我兩年前走去城我已經體力不支快不行了然後他就跟我說表哥 來一杯然後就拿一杯保利達B不知道加什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5288.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5313.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我当时很犹豫该不该喝后来实在是身体体力不济我就尝试看看喝下去的那一瞬间我身体从舌头到胃每一个味觉细胞告诉我一个讯息Never again就是怎么一股药味我觉得很不舒服那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5315.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5343.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
这进泻不明那喝过的铜人我不晓得什么感觉那我表弟说那是那个善心的民众他调配的配方不对才会让你感觉有药味那人就是这样你喝了保利达B大概其他你也会都试看看后来在回程的时候呢回程的时候又有人拿这些提前饮料了有一个大家应该都听过白玛玛利亨就是那个沙很大那我就想说保利达B我都喝了沙很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5344.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5373.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我没有听他们广告的意思我也拿来喝看看就觉得甜甜的感觉比较好喝了所以人就是这么奇怪当有些事情你尝试过之后你就觉得再试试也没什么差别了所以我刚才说我们两个小时要让大家休息十分钟现在也许你需要喝一点提神饮料三点半我们休息个十分钟三点四十的时候再来进行后半部后半部比较多就要看国际人权公约的一些文本我们稍微休息个十分钟 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5380.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5391.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這其實就是會從國際人權談到我們要內國法律的實踐因為國際人權公約它要通過內國法化內國法化並不是說我們直接把人權公約的規定定進來就好我們要在法律跟政策裡面去落實它 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5404.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5432.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以我們觀看那些公約就覺得有些跟我們憲法的基本人權有些不一樣可是那些人權公約到最後你還是要內國法化內國法化其實就是要本質在法跟政策所以我們觀看那些公約這段規定我們沒有內國法化的話那些公約就只是印在那裡的文本所以我才會說我希望讓大家能夠貼近跟國際人權公約的距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5433.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5451.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
然後來想一想說其實這些人權問題在我們日常生活中都有可是我們如果把它內國化的話恐怕是比起我們單純加入或單純認識這些股市的權益來得更重要否則就變成說規定在那裡 我知道這是規定so what你沒有去實踐 落實那就是這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5452.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5478.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以我才會在前半部通常我們先跑到這裡看我的副本就知道講到這裡就讓大家休息後面就會拉到國際人權公約文本的一些介紹包括它形成的背景然後包括說我們如何內國法化然後我們內國法化有哪些組織有哪些政治相關的部門在推動最後我們還有附許國際人權公約的檢視要提交國家人權報告然後提前國際人權公約國際人權的專家選舉來檢視這個在後半部的講明你們就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5482.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5500.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
對 我覺得光講這些其實以在立法院的公約來講那更不會去具有這樣的任務說我要怎麼樣通過法律或政策那是立委的事情那是行政部門的事情但我們會做的是什麼我們會整行政部行政部門把這些實踐國際政治公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5501.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5516.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
精神的法律它怎麼去實踐還有政策 規則是國家的原報送到立法院或者是在立法院立法委員會檢視人權報告這個其實才是更重要所以我覺得從立法院的角度來看跟行政部門是不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5518.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5533.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以我常常說這些觀點包括我講供應鏈的觀點我們不能只是聚焦在等一下你們看到那七八八的解析其實蠻有價值的你不能只看某一個部分某一個端點你要看上午要看下午處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5535.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5558.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
回收 清除污漬的問題你不能只看 因為你是做好喝品 鐵罐旅客的業績你就要負擔這個業務因為他為什麼要做鐵罐旅客的保熱品是因為賣飲料業者有這個需求所以賣飲料業者去下這個單位說我要什麼材質 包裝材質 大小型的所以有決定權的要賣飲料業者所以在拉拉說這個跟環境有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5561.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5573.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
減少廢棄物 廢棄物回收相關法制要修正國外的做法 國際人工公園 ESG這些包括防止塑膠污染的公約這也是跟生物 不只人類 跟海洋生物有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5579.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5591.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以你會開始覺得說怎麼沒有在談國際的公約但我主要把他分成兩塊先讓他有一個生活化的感受因為教授你會講兩公約或是什麼兩公約後面也有什麼公約什麼公約但是那個講解就會讓他覺得我經常去上這些課而且他會跟我們互動今天好像上這堂課 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5605.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5605.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
謝謝教授 謝謝教授 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5975.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6000.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 我们还有50分钟的时间我们就继续今天第二小时的一个内容刚刚有学员问我说有同学问我说怎么都没有谈到国际人权公约确实我的进行的方式跟其他讲国际人权公约的学者老师不太一样也许其他人会把重心一直放在国际人权公约它的文本的内容 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6002.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6030.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
还有国际人权法院或者是其他国际组织的一些案例但我常觉得这些固然是很重要可是讲人权重点还是要落实在我们台湾所以我会觉得说我先抛出一些例子让大家对于人权意识的提升有一些更多的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6031.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6043.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
然後我們舉一些例子是跟台灣有關的例子這樣才會更貼近說究竟這些人權公約如何在台灣透過法律或政策落實才是更重要更具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6044.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6067.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
所以我通常在兩個小時的內容我前半段差不多就是講到這裡就會讓大家稍微休息一下提神一下後半段就會講到國際人權公約它的形成的背景還有它的一些內容還有一些案例但案例的部分我還是會重點放在說我們為了要實踐這些國際人權公約的要求我們如何把它內國法化 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6068.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6082.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
爬内国法化透过一些组织来实践它这是接下来的内容所以我一开始有跟大家讲说我希望今天这两个小时其实时间不长能够让大家有些不一样的观点 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6083.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6096.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那這些觀點可能過去你沒有想過的那能夠跟大家做一些交流包括我剛才所講的清推理論或者是新冠肺炎讓我們對於比利原則有重新的認識還有包括現在所講的供應鏈的觀點供應鏈的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6100.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6125.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
大家談到供應鏈自然就會想到台灣的高科技產業在川普第一任上任之後造成全球供應鏈重組讓大家對供應鏈這個概念有更多的認識但他絕對不是只有在科技業可以運用這個觀點而已我們來看在我們大法官的788號解釋他有提到立法者 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6126.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6143.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
考量政策目标还有不同材质废弃物对环境的影响回收处理技术及成本等因素涉及高度专业跟技术性所以因为非常的专业充满的很技术性的问题所以立法者他没有办法在法律里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6144.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6158.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
做太详尽的规定因此立法者就把客征回收清除处理费的对象客征的对象费率怎么计算那授权给主管机关用命令来定大法官认为是合乎宪法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6159.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6176.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那在法律条文裡面是有提到物品或其包装容器製造出業者是要繳回收清除處理費的責任業者那什麼叫物品呢這兩個字大家可能會覺得說什麼叫物品物品就是物品嘛只是法律大家經常看委員在審查案件就知道有時候需要定義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6177.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6197.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以这个法律 废弃物清理法对于物品并没有明白去定义那只好透过解释文艺解释或者是立法目的的解释它包含了容器商品像是我们这个解释所涉及的瓶装饮料还有包括其他的物品冰箱的 机油冷煤的这些都是可能物品可以包含的范围 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6197.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6214.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那至于业者的范围呢法律条文法律本身也没有规定业者的范围是什么所以从法律本身大法官认为业者的范围法律没有定那当然可能可以包括容器商品或其他物品的制造数业者 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6215.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6240.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
容器製造業者也都可以認定為是繳費增業者所以簡而言之什麼叫做回收清除處理費的製造物品的製造數業者繳費的業者從條文本身來看有可能包括容器商品製造業也就是賣飲料的業者或者是容器製造業者就是鐵罐 鋁罐 寶特瓶這些製造業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6242.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6269.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
究竟要選哪個業者來作為責任業者呢那變成要看行政機關怎麼訂那我們來看大館說什麼主管機關就是環境部他以飲料製造業者也就是容器商品製造業者而不是容器製造業者作為責任業者是考慮到商品使用的容器通常是飲料製造業者所訂製容器的種類 材質 大小 形式通常也是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6271.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6285.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
飲料業者依據他們的需求而決定所以這句話其實很重要為什麼重要呢講白話誰做的決定誰就要負責我們在立法院經常碰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6286.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6303.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
委员在审查法案那审查法案到最后要把决定权交给谁那这个主管机关就要负责任那同样的在行政部门里面也是我们在立法院里面长官做了决定那长官要负责所以它背后隐瞒是当代法律的思维 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6305.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6332.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
自我決定主義誰做的決定那個人就要負責所以飲料業者他要賣飲料他來決定我要用什麼樣的包裝容器材質是不是環保大小是什麼這都是飲料業者下訂單再交給容器製造業者來製造所以如果要繳回收清除處理費講白話就是誰做決定誰要負責那自然就是飲料 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6333.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6361.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
业者要负责他要缴回收清除处理费所以第二段在大法官的理由书他接着讲说理由书接着说容器商品制造业也就是饮料业者实为该等容器成为因回收废弃物质关键业者及主要噪音者这句话大家经常使用电脑你可以去查司法院的网站有没有出现过关键业者及主要噪音者这几个字 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6362.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6387.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我印象中没有我印象中没有所以这套解释有它特殊的地方它从关键业者主要招应者来找谁要负责所以这一点给我一个启发就是从因果关系的观点来思考谁要缴回收清除处理费大法官点出这个问题其实就告诉我们人权保障会不会有所欠缺我们要找关键的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6388.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6393.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
人为什么会有这些虐童事件的发生 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6394.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6420.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
主要从因果关系来看是他的家庭照护者还是保姆还是学校幼儿园他的园长还是照护的老师所以从许多幼儿被虐待的事件我们也许可以归纳出在许多幼儿被虐待的事件当中这些因常发生在哪些环节 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6421.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6441.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
然後針對這些環節特別去加強他的監督或者是他法律上的責任所以我覺得這是一個值得我們去思考的一個角度就是談到人權保障從因果關係的觀點去處理它那這個就是我回應剛剛大家所講的整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6443.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6464.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
回收處理機制為什麼會有廢棄物產生這個廢棄物產生並不能只看最終製造容器的業者它可能是來自於販賣飲料業者的需求還有他的決定而產生這些可能比較難處理會污染環境的這些包裝材質 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6464.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6492.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以他其实是从供应链的观点来思考问题所以我在这里特别谈到在我们环境法上有很多责任的原则污染负担政府负担扩大生产者责任企业社会责任等等所以大王解释的理由书里面提到的关键业者及主要噪音者其实跟供应链的观点perspective of supply chain从因果影响力的切入其实是很值得注意的可是从我们的宪法法院来看到目前为止没有得到学术界普遍的重视 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6493.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6521.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以简而言之我们从788号解释呼应外国学者所讲的供应链观点其实在谈的是什么人权保障可以从供应链还有因果关系的角度来加以观察这个是另外一个哈佛大学法学院教授的观点我就时间关系不再去提它了接着我们来看为什么公务机关公务员要去探讨人权问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6524.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6549.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這裡談到在國際人權許多公約跟宣言裡面有談到它的目的是使政府還有不同社群都能夠參與政策形成過程資源可以妥適分配運用確保市政目標可以實現落實人權保障在聯合國人權事務高級專員辦事處裡面鼓勵各會員國制定國家人權行動計畫提供制定時的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6550.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6574.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以我們目前被趕出聯合國不是聯合國的成員可是我們為了要呼應說聯合國的許多人權保障的訴求我們也希望能夠跟上國際人權保障的一個潮流所以我們就也配合公布國家人權行動計畫手冊到目前為止包括了英國 澳洲 芬蘭等等很多國家都提出他們的國家人權行動計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6576.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6592.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那接著國家人權行動計畫的目的是什麼呢這裡就談到我們從施行公民與政治權利國際公約還有經濟社會文化權利國際公約簡稱兩公約啦也就是公正公約還有金色文公約兩者簡稱兩公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6595.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6606.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
許多機關都依兩公約還有施行法的規定落實人權保障義務但過去沒有擬定國家人權行動計畫缺乏整體政策的指導綱領所以後來才在近幾年從2018重複人權資訊委員會在2020年提出一個決議說要 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6615.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6634.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
提出國家人權行動計畫那就參著這些聯合國鼓勵制定的一個思潮還有國內外人權學者積極倡議我們從2018年7月就總統府指示法務部進行演繹制定國家人權行動計畫的歷程這是比較晚近的發展所以我們可以看到從2021到2024去年剛結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6637.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6653.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
在我們中成國家發展計畫當中以四年作為整理發展目標還有重要策略綱領裡面就納入了包括了這四大政策主軸居住正義 兒少 老人 婦女等等所以我們講人權保障我剛才講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6654.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6670.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
重点也许不是只有在了解这些国际人权公约的内容文本怎么写还有国际法院这当然很重要可是在我们目前国际参与受到限制的情况之下我们可能更重要是如何在内国透过法律跟政策来加以落实 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6671.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6683.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以各個施政計畫的目標或許有所不同但都能夠帶來人權實現的結果促進人權保障創造民眾福祉的政策目標大家或許會覺得說我們沒有辦法參加許多國際組織包括聯合國 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6688.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6703.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們在內國做了這麼多的努力有成果那人家也不見得看得到那這樣有什麼意義呢至少我們自己感受得到在推動人權保障跟過去有什麼樣的不同而且坦白說 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6704.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6720.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
到目前為止我相信人權保障是跨黨派都認為重要的一個目標不管是目前的執政黨或是反對黨包括國民黨 民眾黨我想沒有人會反對人權保障的目標只是他的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6722.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6733.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
在實踐上法律跟政策怎麼設計也許有不同的想法但以人權保障作為國家總體施政的目標我想是沒有人會反對的那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6736.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6756.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
成果也許大家比較少有實際的經驗去年11月還是12月我剛好到韓國成軍館大學參加一場研討會那場研討會除了亞洲的學者之外也有來自歐美的學者在我簡報完之後有個美國學者跟我換名片 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6757.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6781.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
他当然对我的报告内容有些兴趣当然那一场报告我并不是在讲台湾的人权问题但他知道我来自台湾就跟我换了名片那就聊着聊着他说他知道我们台湾因为没有办法参与联合国跟许多国际组织但是我们透过内国法的方式走了一条很特别的路而且我们有很多成果那就他了解这些都是很不错的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6782.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6801.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
頓時感到好感動 好感動我們政府做的事情從馬政府到蔡總統到現在這個施政關切人權的主軸在國際上是被肯定的所以無形當中也會提升我們國家還有人民在國外的一個形象 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6802.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6827.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
这个当然是对于我们推展外交或者经贸活动都有帮助的所以这是我自己切身的感受以前很少有这种机会听到外国学者会关心台湾的人权问题那个美国的学者让我印象深刻在这里跟大家做这样的简单分享思考处理人权问题我也觉得应该要有时间跟空间这两个面向作为基本观点 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6828.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6855.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
在我們一般談到人權的時候都會延續這樣的脈絡來做介紹所謂第一代人權重視的就是生存權還有財產的保障比較基本的到了第二代的人權就會強調經濟社會文化包括勞動者的人權或者是說文化社會性質的權利什麼叫做文化的權利大家也許會想說文化有什麼好特別去說的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6856.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6879.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
文化層面的人權包括我們這幾年政府在推的什麼呢原住民文化的保護所以我們有很多的母語電視台或廣播電台所以包括客語電視台或者是台語或者是原名台有幾次我在我們學校面試原住民同學他申請入學的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6879.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6907.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我都會問說那你有看過原民台嗎因為原住民是有另外一個入學優惠條件的一個入學的途徑結果我問了幾次有些原住民同學自己都沒有看原民台我都跟他講說我有看過原民台什麼節目還滿有趣的你自己要以原住民身分來申請入學沒有注意所以這一點是可以注意到說我們對於族群文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6908.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6920.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
注意到少数族群他们文化的一个保护那文化人权还有什么我刚才讲说这并不是距离我们太过遥远的大家也许会去过两厅院看一些表演 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6923.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6943.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
你有没有看过两厅院有些位置他特别保留给身障同胞他可以坐轮椅来欣赏表演的这个也是以前没有所以我们讲的文化人权我们也注意到少数有特殊需求的民众他们也同样享有文化生活的权利这个其实就是一个很大的进步 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6946.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6974.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
讲到时间跟空间面向我再来讲空间面向时间面向等一下再举个例子空间面向我们人其实就是空间的一个动物我们在不同空间有不同的生活形态的需求所以我们可以从我们所身处的不同空间来思考说在这个地方有没有人权保障不足而可以改善的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6976.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6997.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
無障礙設施這個是大家最清楚的所以我們可以看到搭乘捷運或者是到一些公共場所它有無障礙設施我舉兩個例子讓大家想一想我們在講人權保障重點不在於它的文本而是在於它的實踐在搭公車的時候你們看到公車也會畫一個輪椅的專用區 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7000.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7020.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那我要问大家你有没有看过哪个使用轮椅的民众在搭公车坐在那个轮椅专用区然后他的轮椅被固定在那里他可以坐在那个轮椅专用区上就是他是使用轮椅然后他上公车公车不是有画一个轮椅的身上人是专用区吗你有看过那个区域被使用过吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7022.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7047.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
有 佩服 我沒看過我沒看過 那可能是只有少數為什麼我點這個例子呢在我剛到博克萊念書的時候也有發生過幾次讓我印象深刻的經驗那時候我剛去就很緊張 第一次到美國三幾歲 沒有去過美國家裡環境的關係就只能靠獎學金到美國的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7048.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7059.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我要下公车那个司机是个黑人女士他就瞪着我我拿着我的学生证我都已经感应了可以下车了可是他就是不开门他就是看着我 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7060.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7079.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
然后我也不晓得他到底要干嘛他就说smile smile就要我微笑那我知道微笑然后谢谢他原来他看得出来我很紧张那美国加州相对是比较友善因为族群都有各种族群都有然后他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7080.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7095.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
传递一个讯息在美国你要轻松一点自在一点保持微笑微笑谢谢他Have a nice day祝他一个快乐的一天他就让我下车了这是一个印象还有什么印象跟公车有关呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7096.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7112.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
就是美国也有身障人士他要搭公车搭公车他一样司机要停下来把延伸的板子伸出去司机要协助轮椅的民众让他上公车把他固定好之后车子再开前后大概要花5分钟 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7114.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7143.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以為什麼要舉這個例子呢我們公車上面有使用輪椅的這樣的設計但是也要司機願意來協助身障同胞否則你光有硬體沒有這樣的職場的訓練司機沒有這樣的人權意識那你光是那個輪椅使用區沒有意義再結合一開始我給大家看的那張照片為什麼我會說其實使用率還是偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7143.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7151.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
因为身障人士除非他有家人的协助否则他光要到公车站牌你想他多困难 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7152.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7180.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
使用輪椅到公車站牌那可能要經過顛簸不平的路面跟摩托車搶到那騎樓也不見得這麼通暢所以並不容易的所以有時候我剛才講從空間的角度我們不是只看特定的公車那個伸張輪椅使用的區域而已還有從它整個要到公車站牌的過程來思考這要經過多少不同的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7181.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7190.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這是我要舉的一個例子這是從空間的面向來看從文化的面向或者我們講人權的面向還有哪些跟空間有關係呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7193.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7217.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
也是一样2023年我到日本去演讲其实因为我的老师也受邀请他演讲完后我演讲也是蛮大的一个荣耀我演讲完之后隔一两天我记得日本的学者就安排我美国的指导教授跟我去参观日本的最高法院日本最高法院相当于我们的宪法法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7218.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7247.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那在參觀他們日本的最高法院的時候我看到他們的法庭也有一個區域那地毯畫了一個輪椅的符號那我就跟他們負責解說的人確認這是不是指身障人士也可以出庭他說沒有錯使用接近司法的權利是也要考慮到身障人士的權利不管他是以原告或者是證人的身分來出庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7248.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7264.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
都要考慮到他們的便利性所以在日本的最高法庭地上有特別保留給身障人士使用的使用輪椅的一個區域這就是我所講的從空間的角度來思考人權問題到了隔一年也就是去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7267.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7285.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
应该说前年底那是去前年暑假我去日本前年底我一样邀日本学者还有我的指导教授来台湾演讲对等互惠这也是一种礼遇我就安排我的指导教授跟日本的这位学者去我们的司法院宪法法庭参观 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7287.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7308.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那我就开始紧张了我问人家问题人家就问我你们台湾的宪法法庭有没有留给身障人士使用的位置结果我拼命在找地上都没有任何话论语的符号我就先用中文问一下我们的同仁说那有没有身障人士要出庭的时候我们有做什么设备的安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7309.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7335.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
還好我們司法院有我們司法院負責接待的很多人說有然後就把這些特別設計的椅子設備就搬出來了然後就藉這個機會做宣導應該說宣揚我就跟我的指導教授還有日本的學者說台灣也很重視身障人士接近使用司法的權利讓他們也有一些相關的設備我們的司法院同仁也準備出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7336.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7360.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以我們要不要交流我們要國際交流才會知道說人家做到什麼程度我們有沒有什麼不足這是第二個我剛才講說從空間的面向來做思考我就要請大家看一看我們這是立法院開大會的場所我們大會裡面有沒有身障人士可以使用的區域或設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7362.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7387.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那会不会开大会的时候委员我记得以前是有身障的委员那他们也许因为有专人照护比较没有问题可是开大会不见得只有委员可能也有其他人会出席那有没有考虑到身障者应该也有我想应该是有所以这一点我们可以想一想从空间的角度来思考人权保障有没有什么可以再改善的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7389.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7417.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
第三代人权是从个人权走向集体人权也就是人权的观念以往是停留在以个人作为人权的主体但走到第三代人权差不多是20世纪下半叶21世纪初我们发现说有些人权他必须以群体的概念才能够来提出主张诉求的我以前也不晓得在2015年10年前也是因为日本学者邀请他跟我们台湾几个学者组成一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7418.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7434.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
研究 一个研究计划这个研究计划是有关高山土地所有权空洞化的问题高山所有权土地空洞化为什么日本学者会提出这个问题呢因为大家知道日本少子化很严重 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7436.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7464.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
偏遠的地區在高山的土地到最後因為年輕人到都市工作加上少子化可能土地本來是有人在耕種的最後就沒落沒有人使用土地光有蜀國有權但逐漸空洞化日本為什麼要特別研究這個問題因為他們並不是說土地經過多少年沒有使用到最後沒有人繼承土地在台灣沒有人繼承會怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7466.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7494.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
最后变成国有了日本没有这条法律所以他们的土地是没有人继承那找不到继承是谁也不能收归国有所以他们会面临光有土地所有权人找不到所有权在哪里他的后代子孙也找不到所以他们有这个问题所以他们就在设想说台湾会不会也有这个问题南韩会不会有这个问题所以他们就组了一个跨国的研究计划的小组结果来到台湾发现台湾问题跟我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7495.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7521.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
土地没有人继承若干年之后就变成国有土地跟日本的问题不一样而且我们还有一个比较特别的是我们有很多原住民所以我们在高山地区有很多原住民族的传统领域这个在日本没有日本爱奴人的人数很少所以我们高山土地很多是在原住民的传统领域所以面临到的问题跟日本不太一样 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7522.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7538.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那日本学者也因此发现说他们原本设定的研究方向要有些调整那我为什么会讲到这个呢那时候跟日本学者做天然调查他们就真的很台语讲很精准很精准就是很仔细很认真 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7539.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7557.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我们到乌莱就是新北市乌莱是整个新北市唯一一个原住民原乡的地方我们到乌莱然后跟原住民的一些部落的长老进一些交流对话我这是孤陋寡闻我那时候才知道在传统原住民文化当中 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7557.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7573.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
他們的財產是共有制並不是個人私有制所以在傳統原住民部落社會當中他們的財產如何分配 如何利用要尊重部落的文化 戒律或是長老的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7575.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7599.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
这样的行使就带有集体人权的概念它是部落共有而不是个人所有所以才会发现说其实我们讲人权的概念讲集体人权在台湾最典型的就是原住民他传统的文化还有传统的领域还有他的财产权会跟我们当代法律的一些以个人作为主体的权利法律有些冲突 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7600.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7618.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
集体人权还包括集体防卫权所以这些问题是第三代人权所面临的比较困难的一些课题所以刚才讲时间就从他的眼镜的面向基本上来看当然也可以从我们每天的生活来思考说我们在不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7619.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7633.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
早上 中午 晚上不同的民众年龄他在不同的场所会碰到的人权问题有什么差别讲到文本的部分这是要请大家一定要晓得的国际人权宪章基本上包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7634.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7650.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
二次大戰結束初期的世界人權宣言還有公民與政治權利國際公約還有經濟社會文化權利國際公約這就是簡稱兩公約這邊的介紹有些是基本觀念我就不再贅述了談到國際人權體制的四個層次 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7652.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7673.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
这是一定要晓得从联合国宪章到世界人权宣言还有两公约因为我们把它叫做两人权公约另外就是特定领域的人权公约那这个你不用特别背它了因为既然也不是考试大家就知道就可以了那会有疑问的是说大家可能会觉得现在恶务冲突 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7674.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7699.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
以規則為基礎的世界秩序幾乎已經崩解了我們在講聯合國憲章這些國際政治公約還有意義還有必要有價值嗎我很難給一個最終的結論因為從目前來看確實是如此國際秩序重組這些國際社會公約種種的規則好像受到很大的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7702.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7731.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
但是並沒有被完全的放棄你會看到說光是以巴衝突以色列跟加薩走廊這些巴勒斯坦的衝突聯合國還是有出若干的力量來給予人道的救援那只是說可能它的成效被打了很大的折扣因為很多國家不遵守這些國際社會的人權公約那這當然是我覺得是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7732.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7753.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
负面的发展但我们也期待说至少有一个理想有一个目标要往正向的角度去突破的回到过去我们可以看到二次世界大战结束初期其实本来世界是有这样的一个理念要进步把人权保障国际化所以有这一类人权公约的规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7755.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7772.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
詳細的內容我就不再仔細去談它有各條文的規定我們看公正公約就是公民與政治權利國際公約它在1966年聯合國大會通過1976年生效距今也大概快60年了至少超過半世紀 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7776.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7802.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
裡面它有哪些內容以公正公約來看它跟等一下要提到的金色文公約很類似談到了人民自決權一般性規定 具體權利的內容公約的監督機制 公約的解釋簽署批准跟交存公正公約的內容大家可以稍微瀏覽一下這個應該是在獎勵的第30頁我一開始有跟大家提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7803.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7831.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們憲法雖然有關人權基本權利的相關條款可是跟國際人權一些公約來比仍然有些不同這也正是我們今天為什麼要去了解國際人權公約的目的知道有什麼不同然後進一步來思考說我們要不要修憲還是透過釋憲的方式來強化這些我們原本憲法條文沒有規定到的人權保障面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7832.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7858.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好像前天還是昨天立法院不是成立了修憲委員會應該是昨天開完選了五個委員然後就解散了我記得就在這裡我不曉得他們會不會想到說我們要來修修基本人權條款但修憲難度很高那個門檻的問題我就不再多花時間去談了可是我們來看兩公約的內容特別以公正公約來看禁止奴隸與強制勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7861.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7889.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們憲法有關人權的規定沒有明白提到這一條我們也都應該會贊同禁止把人作為奴隸甚至強制人不管是什麼樣的人去從事勞動工作禁止勞動這個條文重不重要當然重要以前大家可能會覺得這有什麼好說的可是你想想 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7890.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7908.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
不是有KK園區嗎中南半島在緬甸還是寮國這些有些台灣民眾可能被詐騙集團騙了人到那邊被強制勞動從事詐騙工作甚至有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7910.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7922.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有被強摘器官的風險所以認識國際公約甚至參與國際組織透過多邊或雙邊的合作我們才有辦法去保障國人能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7924.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7944.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
在萬一不幸他被詐騙騙到這一類園區成為奴隸被強制勞動之後我們有辦法透過雙邊或多邊的這種合作把他營救回來所以國際關係仍然是很重要的基礎那我們就會發現說如果我們願意去遵守國際公約所強調的這一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7948.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7972.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那表示什麼 其他國家繼續平等互惠我們比較有立場來取得合作的基礎另外一個禁止非法驅逐外國人這個我們憲法條文也沒有規定所以我們以前可能也不會想到說那外國人驅逐有什麼問題可是如果我們沒有法律作為依據驅逐的外國人這其實也是違反國際人權的基本規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7975.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7982.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那幾年前甚至最近偶爾也會發生有些外國的演藝人士他來台灣表演 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7983.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8007.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
他怎么进来的 他拿观光签证进来表演就被查到了我们的移民署可能就会把他强制出境因为他是非法在台湾从事表演活动跟他入台的理由观光并不符合所以我们就会发现说如果我们不了解这个规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8008.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8036.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們可能就無法去了解到國際社會對於外國人人權的保障也逐漸加以重視我們也希望我們哪一天到國外的時候不會被非法驅逐所以這個是國際人權公約當中所講的公正公約一個具體的規定另外對家庭的保護 兒童的權利這個在我們憲法本文裡面也沒有所以如果今天要談到修憲基本人權條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8037.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8053.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
不見得都只能仰賴釋憲或我們目前的憲法訴訟來詮釋它的內容甚至我們有必要直接針對基本人權條款參考這些國際人權公約把它納入修憲的一個文本當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8054.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8076.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
當然修憲的門檻這是一個問題要先能夠突破所以如果能夠把像公正公約所談到的這些具體內容變成我們修憲的內容其實我們可以更有自信到國際社會跟其他國家交流的時候說我們對於人權的保障已經提升到怎麼樣的程度了另外要請大家注意通常對於人權保障會成立一些專門的組織像是人權事務委員會有專門的組織來推動這些事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8082.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8097.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
金色文公約有些也跟前面的公知公約很類似有人民自決權 一般性規定 具體權利內容等等在金色文公約當中你可以看到它比較偏重是經濟 社會跟文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8098.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8125.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那这里面有几个条文也是我们宪法本文里面没有提到的比如说工作条件我们宪法只有提到保障人没有工作自由那工作自由是不是包含工作条件我们后来透过解释的方式做了扩张那包括了劳动基本权还有相当生活水准当然什么叫相当生活水准还有待讨论第12条是我想强调的身体与心理健康的权利我们宪法有没有提到这个没有 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8128.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8132.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們大法官解釋有沒有提到健康權有 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8134.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8158.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
在应该是785号的解释有提报健康权蛮晚的但宪法的本文没有提到健康权如果从金色文公约来看健康权它不是只有身体的健康还包括心理的健康所以很多年前我在讲这些人权公约的时候特别是在我们公务人员刚考上的基础训练我都会跟他们提到说我们应该期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8159.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8183.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們國會能夠修法把公務員有請心理假的權利明白規定在法律裡面我本來也對於這種心理健康權利還有心理假並不太認識也差不多是在三四年前我們台北大學有學生權益委員會學生提案說 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8185.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8197.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
學生現在課業壓力很大每個學期除了試駕並駕之外他們希望能夠爭取到也可以請心理駕一個學期也許有四小時到六小時的心理駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8198.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8217.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
在场当然学生一定支持参与的老师也都支持说学生确实有很多现代社会所产生的一些压力我们也赞同学生应该可以请心理假然后就有些老师说老师可不可以请心理假老师也会有疲累的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8218.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8239.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那我们老师通常就是可能比较弹性虽然没有心理架的名称但是我们也可以去以别的名目来请假但是公务员有没有呢以前是没有所以我在刚才讲说在许多文官训练的课程我都说公务员应该要有心理架我赞同公务员要有心理架然后一开始的时候就有很多的公务员学员就掌声鼓励 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8240.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8258.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
要有心理假我相信大家也認為應該可以請心理假特別是在立法院會期快結束之前最好可以心理假多一點那時候是壓力最大的時候但我不敢講因為那時候是需要人力的時間點講了很多年總算今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8260.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8288.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我也不曉得是立法委員應該沒有人去參加我的課總算他們也聽到呼籲了政府增列你增列公務員身心調試假所以在今年3月行政院人事行政總處處長當時有說規劃在7天試假內挪3天當身心調試假不僅有薪水 不僅想考記也不用證明現在我不曉得考試院到底訂定了沒有因為他是講說考試院要會同行政院訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8289.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8317.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那我觉得是有点违德不足不应该是在原本的七天释迦挪三天应该是另外加进来如果是在原本的七天里面那是把我的释迦拿来作为圣心调释迦用那释迦归释迦跟圣心调释是不一样的意义所以大家觉得重不重要你们是最贴近立委的人没关系 谢谢谢谢你的好意 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8320.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8337.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
好 謝謝所以我相信各位同仁我很感動有人願意主動幫我加水我以前 謝謝我相信大家都有身心調適的需要我們很多人都還在三明治當中上有高堂老母 下有七小 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8338.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8359.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以我觉得这要跟委员反映不要七天市价里面挪三天身心调市价是要另外算的想办法跟委员说服 沟通那这是我今天为大家上国际人权这门课程想要给大家最直接的一个讯息就是要跟委员反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8360.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8379.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
要跟委員反映 有沒有支持的應該都是掌聲通過 對不對謝謝各位跟委員反映因為這真的是要符合國際人權公約理由都幫他找出來了身體與心理健康的權利我猜沒有委員會反對的最容易過的 然後大家都有成績好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8383.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8404.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們再來往底下看所以看國際人權公約有沒有價值有必要甚至不是只有這些公約的規定還有一些它的報告還有別的國家的做法我們借重其他國家的經驗可以來做一個反省的我國參與兩公約其實是有一段歷程從2009年當時是由立法院審議通過總統批准後來在2009年送到聯合國聯合國沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8414.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8418.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
舊的觀念說一意中為理由把它退回了所以這是在馬總統任內 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8421.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8446.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我覺得這是一個突破至少我們實踐追求兩公約的精神後來我們雖然被聯合國民訴訟以一中為理由退回兩公約在我國體系上的定位跟效率還是有必要所以後來就採取用法律名利的方式這個是要請大家知道的我們有兩公約施行法我相信在座同仁都知道兩公約施行法是立法院三讀通過總統公布的法律所以它是法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8447.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8475.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以我們依據兩公約施行法有法律上的權利來跟政府提出各種主張國家包括行政立法司法也要加以實踐兩公約施行法謝謝兩公約施行法的內容是什麼呢這一點請大家注意這在簡報的應該是36頁在第二條裡面明定兩公約所揭示保障人權的規定具有國內法的效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8480.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8509 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
具有国内法的效力所以两公约不是天高皇帝远国际公约我们纵使没有加入但我们现在已经把两公约实行法明定了它是具有内国法的效力所以拘束了行政立法司法各个机关都要遵循两公约包括中央跟地方另外在第五条两公约实行法提到各级政府机关应确实依现行法令规定业务执掌负责筹划推动执行两公约规定事项那彼此要协调 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8510.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8531.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
另外第六條也是重要的我們在實踐公約人權公約的做法跟一般法律不太一樣是我們建立了人權報告制度藉由各個機關彙整的人權報告我們來審視有什麼地方要改進的邀請國內外的人權專家來審視甚至要到國會來進行報告這是重要的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8532.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8559.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
甚至要依財政狀況優先編列逐步實施這個細節我就不再多談了接下來我們要談到是個別的一些人權公約像簡稱CEDAW就是消除對婦女一切形式歧視公約也很重要我要請大家注意的是在這幾年我們從新聞媒體看到一些不管是違反性評的或者是所謂的MeToo事件我們是到4點半還是4點20 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8566.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8585.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
開會了 嚇我一跳 聽到鐘聲我想說我還有幾個公約沒有講不過也好啦提醒我還有七分鐘左右的時間消除對婦女切心是其實公約要注意什麼呢我要請在座的同仁一起關注我們不能有性別刻板印象跟偏見 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8586.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8612.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以以前在很多公家機關這個要接待訪客的時候都要婦女同仁去準備茶水做接待這其實是帶有傳統性別刻板印象的現在不可以這麼做所以如果你是我們立法院裡面的單位的主管長官你在分派工作的時候可能就要小心不能流於性別刻板印象跟偏見 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8614.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8636.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
當然也不能有各種歧視性別的歧視這個就會反映在包括我們錄取的人數甚至很多機關它的委員的比例有沒有符合性別比例這個在很多政府機關裡面是嚴格要求包括我們行政院的性評處也很積極在推動這類的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8638.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8656.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
接著是兒童權利公約這幾年我都覺得我們還有不足就是兒童是相對非常非常弱勢特別是學齡前的兒童那他可能在原生家庭或者在保母又有人會受到虐待他不敢講他也不知道自己被虐待所以這個問題從之前那個凱凱案就發現說 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8660.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8679.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們行政院成立了兒童及少年福利權益推動小組來督導這個恐怕還不足各個地方政府雖然也有做但總是有受到虐待的兒童事件不斷的發生所以我剛才才會講說從因果關係的角度來看包括社福機構還有保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8680.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8692.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這些恐怕要多花一點心思去看怎麼樣透過法令來加強管理了包括一些幼兒園 小學等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8694.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8712.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
兒童權利公約這裡要留意的是指未滿18歲都可以稱為兒童這跟我們國內的少年福利法少年法跟少年法不太一樣未滿18歲都是兒童我們目前18歲是成年未滿18歲都可以稱為兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8715.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8741.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
講到這裡印象很深刻是大家就會想到周子瑜Twice的團體裡面有一個我們台灣的成員周子瑜在當時不是有一年農曆年快過年的時候被迫在電視前唸了一個聲明稿披頭散髮很憔悴他的經紀公司要他唸那個聲明稿當時大家看了都愚心不忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8742.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8747.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我也很難過 我就把兒童權利公約的英文 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8748.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8775.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
贴在我韩国当时我在美国念书一个很好的韩国律师朋友的脸书上因为他跟我很好那他是韩国的律师我贴这个儿童权利公约的英文版就是要让他知道说你们韩国的经纪公司虐待我们的周子瑜他还未满18岁是儿童然后我这个韩国的这个律师朋友他是韩国最好大学首尔大学毕业在韩国最好的事务所工作他给我按了一个赞 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8776.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8796.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
表示他也赞同所以现在大家就知道说什么叫儿童未满18岁都叫儿童那这个如果你知道你家未满18岁的青少年子女知道那后面会怎么样我就不知道了他一定会说我是儿童所以我想要什么样的权利 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8797.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8815.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
但真的未滿18歲就是兒童嗎我看現在小學大概差不多是五六年級他的想法就已經很接近大人了因為現在資訊非常多所以也是只能說國際上對兒童的年齡界定是很寬未滿18歲都叫兒童可是現實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8815.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8835.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們看到很多小學高年級他都已經跟成人沒有什麼太大差別了我們可能要更重視對於這些兒童就是年齡介於青少年這一段的兒童他們的一個教育我覺得這個問題很大凱凱在這邊我就貼出來了我們可以看到什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8836.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8852.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
台湾儿童保护系统这是有些评论分散在不同机构包括社福 警政检调导致各单位权责不明那我们就可以看看英国还有说儿童专员的制度那也有建议说要设立独立的儿童权利专责机构 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8853.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8871.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以为什么我要给大家看这个问题呢因为走到最后用刑法来处理都已经是太后端的一个处理方式了身心障碍者确立公约呢也一样他有推动小组身事间关系我之后不再多谈了消除一些种族歧视公约看起来只能给大家一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8872.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8874.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
也应该要避免发生这样的歧视效果了 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8903.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8931.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好 那其他還有什麼資訊呢大概在我們法務部的人權專區都可以找得到另外推動人權保障的重要組織我是要請大家注意在還沒有修憲被廢掉之前因為這有不同的看法我們就要注意監察院的國家人權委會其實提供蠻多的例子跟說明的所以如果大家有興趣可以看看這是以前我擷取下來他給兒童權利必修課這個作為家長的恐怕都應該有所了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8933.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8951.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
另外就是在事情報告的部分我就不再多談一些案例只好略掉了包括原住民權利的部分我在差不多三年前應該是兩三年前不太記得了當時到芬蘭開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8953.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8980.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
芬兰赫尔辛基是他们的车站里面他们升起了乌克兰的国旗表示他们支持乌克兰那是从海边看到芬兰为什么要举芬兰呢芬兰曾经连续六年全球票选人权保障最好的一个国家所以我们还有很多地方可以努力所以我后来就想到说在日本有个作家叫做村上春树他曾经讲过我们都是在这个世界不完美的世界当中不完美的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8981.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8997.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們都是在這個不完美世界上不完美的人那作為公務員我們能夠做的也許就是努力做些什麼讓自己跟這個世界少一些遺憾所以我希望今天跟大家分享這個人權課程最後以此作為一個結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8997.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9021.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
希望大家能夠有不同的觀點然後因為大家跟委員很接近把你的觀察事實的跟委員做一些反應我相信我們還是可以讓這個世界少一些遺憾的未來的路希望我們大家一起共同努力再次感謝各位同仁的參與謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝高教授精彩的分享我們今天課程就到這邊請大家幫我用手機掃一下牆上的QR Code填一下滿意度調查謝謝大家的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9037.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9053.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
響鐘 |