| IVOD_ID |
16869 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16869 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-14T08:31:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-14T12:33:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:01:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc49fe9bba21443e5353399f7931ebeebaa4a8e3640dc7cc207da80a412481ea355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、中央選舉委員會主任委員、法務部廉政署署長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「政務人員應否及如何遵守行政中立原則、行政機關於選舉罷免期間應為如何之宣導與落實」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、併案審查
（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。
三、併案審查（一）委員傅崐萁等25人、（二）委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答】
【8月13日及14日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:28 - 12:33:00 |
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我們現在繼續開會我們首先介紹到場委員還有應邀列席官員羅志強委員接著介紹應邀列席官員考試院秘書長劉建興秘書長全區部部長施能捷部長人事行政院人事行政總處人事長蘇俊隆人事長中選會主委李敬勇主委 |
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司法院刑事廳廳長 理他任廳長 法務部政次 黃士傑政次其位介紹 |
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1796.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席代表請參議員名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄本日會議議程分別排定進行專案報告並被質詢於病案審查考試院函請審議公務人員考積法第十二條條文修正草案等五案及病案審查委員傅坤祺等二十五人凝聚刑事訴訟法七十一條及一百七十五條條文修正草案等二案會議程序依例先進行提案說明及報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1799.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1826.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我們現在進行委員提案說明 每位發言時間三分鐘因為提案委員均未到場所以我們直接請機關進行機關報告我們待會請機關代表針對專題內容及法案疑病報告詢答的時候折彩綜合詢答 每位發言時間為三分鐘我們首先先請考試院劉秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1834.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1849.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天很高興有這個機會列席貴委員會就公務員考機法第十二條修正草案提出報告而且也在此感謝貴委員長期對考試院的各項重要施政跟重要法案的支持與協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1850.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1873.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
為了保障公務員員執行職務的安全與健康同時強化公務體系對職場霸凌的防治本院研擬了公務員員保障法部分條文修正草案跟考積法第12條的修正草案在今年5月6號函請貴院審議其中保障法的部分已經經過貴院的審議通過並且在7月9號經總統令公佈專案在此也非常感謝貴院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1874.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1892.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
很快的速度能夠通過這一項法案讓這個職場公部門的職場霸凌防治能夠奠定重要的基礎另外就審查的今天審查的考機法第12條的部分這個是主要是配合保障法的修正那將這個職場霸凌增列為一次計兩大過免職的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1894.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1914.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
同時為了配合政府的重大政令我們也將酒後駕車性侵性騷等重大違私行為來並同增列為一次計兩大過免職的條件來完善相關的懲處規定希望透過這一次的修法能夠進一步有效防治相關不當行為的發生此外為了配合司法院釋字第583號 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1916.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1941.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
解釋意旨我們依照情節輕重徵定了懲處權行使期間以符合法律保留原則並且維護公務員的權益及法制序的安定希望這些規範能夠還有這些修正能夠獲得貴院的支持以上報告敬請委員支持指調謝謝好謝謝我們補充介紹翁曉琳委員黃國昌委員那下一位我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1944.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1946.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
下一位我們請全序部施部長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1953.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1980.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席各位委員長今天部裡面就專案的一個主題跟送的考級法能做一個簡單的一個說明今天有一個專案的一個主題是有關討論這個政務人員應否及如何遵守行政中立原則這方面的一些議題那如果純粹就行政中立法來講確實政務人員並不是該法適用的一個對象不過這並不是表示說政務人員不必守法因為他還是必須要遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1981.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2006.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
行政中立法裡面有關第14條如果他當行政機關首長的時候他不可以違法指示這個同仁做不應該做的事情然後他也必須要遵守公務人員服務法有關不可動用如果跟職務無關他不可以動用行政資源這些相關的一些規定所以這大概就是現行我們台灣的整個對政務人員有關他的一些相關的一個規定特別在選舉活動的一些規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2007.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2030.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
當然本部對於這個事情今年配合罷免的時候我們也在本部在7月的時候也發了一個通函給所有的各機關再重新再一次提醒所有的公務體系的同仁應該要遵守這些原則本部作為一個行政中立法的主管機關我們是就法制面做一個主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2031.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2045.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
如果有些個案狀況的時候都是由各機關自行必須要去做認定調查然後做一些必要的處理我想各機關如果對法治適用有一些疑慮當然可以請示本部做函事 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2047.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2064.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有關我們送的這個烤雞法一個修正案剛剛秘書長已經報告這次要來配合我們修訂這個保障法那我們就增列了這個第12條有關丁等烤雞免職專案烤雞免職一次計兩大鍋免職的把一些有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2065.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2085.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
霸凌但是不光是霸凌我們認為很多重大違反政府很重要法令的一些包括像性騷或者是酒駕或者是跟監這一邊也都列入是可以列為一次計兩大過免的一個條件之一這是本部這次修法最重要的一個項目另外一個項目是因為很久以前在4583號解釋特別講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2088.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2105.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
任何的行政層主應該他有一個時效期間以前在我們現行的考積法並沒有規定時效期間所以這次我們就配合這個依照大法官583號一個解釋的意旨我們就把分為一次激大過 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2108.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2131.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
的一個懲處期的一個追溯期間分別根據他的就是說被懲處的類型行政懲處的類型依他的輕重分別定定他的一個追溯時間這讓對機關的運作能夠跟同仁本身的一個安定性我想都是有注意的那以上的一個提案敬請大院能夠支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2135.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2145.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 謝謝 那我們下一位麻煩請中選會主委不好意思 那個行政院人事行政總處人事長蘇俊隆人事長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2149.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2166.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席 各位委員 大家早 今天總署應邀列席貴委員會深感榮幸以下請就政府人員 行政中立委員者 先導與落實的行為以及公務人員考計法第12條條文修正草案第五等五案進行檢要報告 請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2167.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2192.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在政務人員如何遵守行政中立部分為了確保公務人員依法行政政治中立公務人員行政中立法明定了公務人員不得動用行政資源從事政治活動亦不得利用職遣妨害他人嫌棄罷免或公民投票的行使長官不得要求公務人員從事中立法禁止的行為等規範另外依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2193.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2212.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
獨立行使之前的政務人員如中選會公平會通常會等委員都是中立法的準用對象至於其他的政務人員雖然不是中立法準用對象但如果是公務人員的長官的時候就要遵守中立法第14條的規定不得要求公務人員違反行政中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2212.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2230.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
同時也應該遵守服務法第20條的規定非營職務需要不得動用行政資源等相關規定為了使行政機關公務人員及政府人員在選舉罷免期間嚴守行政中立等相關規定行政院已經將行政中立等相關的課程納入公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2232.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2255.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
公務員每年必修的課程那總署也在總署的網站建置了行政中立相關規範專區另外在今年5月23、7月8號我們也透過多元管道如賴的請主請各主管機關人士機構加強先導行政中立相關規定最後在公務人員考計劃第12條條文修正草案等5案部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2256.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2272.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這次修正主要是考試院為了落實對職場霸凌等重大違私行為 零容忍的政策並符合司法院釋字第583號的解釋有關懲處前行使期間應該在考機還名定的意旨修正一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2273.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2293.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
計量到過專案考機的條件本總署競表支持建議依考試驗版本通過自委員分別提案修正考計劃第3條11條12條部分請委員參與本總署順便報告 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請中選會主委李靜詠主委報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2304.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2330.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生貴委員會今天舉行會議邀請本會就政務人員應否以及如何遵守行政中立原則行政機關於選舉罷免期間應如何之宣導以及落實來進行專案報告請就近期辦理公投罷免有關的行政及選務中立部分報告如下 敬請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2331.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2351.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第一 權序部針對罷免案與行政中立的規範公務人員行政中立法第十條規定公務人員對於公務人員之選舉罷免或者是公民投票不得利用職務上之權利 機會或者方法要求他人不行使投票權或為一定之行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2352.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2376.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
該法的主管機關為全序部 該部於114年7月1日 部法2至第1145843350號疏含含之中央及地方機關略以本會陸續公告相關公職人員罷免案的宣告 成立等事項為貫徹各機關公務人員嚴守行政中立精神及相關的行為規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2378.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2405.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
公務員與公務人員罷免案進行期間應嚴守行政重力的精神避免利用直覺或者職務的關係動用行政資源或使用直顯名氣從事支持或反對特定罷免案之相關政治活動或行為有各機關首長或主管人員負有管理責任在選舉委員會公告公職人員選舉罷免宣告成立日至投票日子 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2406.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2416.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
請禁止政黨罷免案提議人之領銜人被罷免人或其支持者基於宣傳造勢或敗票等意圖所為造訪的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2418.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2440.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
且應於機關學校固定辦公或者是處理公務之場所各處入口明顯的處署張貼禁止支持或者是反對罷免活動的宣告以為政府機關中立之公正形象那本會已經在同年的4月同年月的4日以中選人制第1140023703號書函轉資直轄市縣市選舉委員會應確實遵守辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2447.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2448.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第五十條的規定中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2463.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2484.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
以及地方政府各級機關公職人員選舉競選或者是罷免活動期間不得從事任何與競選或罷免宣傳有關的活動違則一統法第104條之一第一項機關首長或其代理人或受其指示之人要處三年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2485.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2511.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第二 各級選舉委員會辦理的事務的人員的規定這個在45條有詳細的規定也請各位委員能夠參閱那本會辦理這個選務 可遵中立的原則依法辦理選務那如果各位委員有其他詢詢的事項我們等一下在詢討的時候再向各位做這個詳細的說明以上報告進行指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2512.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2515.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 謝謝 我們下一位請司法院刑事廳廳長 里廳長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2524.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2543.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先生女士今天歸委員會病案審查公務員考記法及刑事訴訟等案本院奉邀請來列席深感榮幸自就本次會議意見提出下面說明進行委員指教有關於病案審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2544.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2569.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
公務員考機法第十二條修正草案的部分有關第十二條第四項增列了性侵害等重大違適為一次劇兩大過要件這部分有關性侵害的部分草案的內容則是經有關機關或依法組成之相關委員會查證屬實但經檢察官提出公訴應以一次劇兩大過處分這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2571.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2599.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們認為這個草案未經司法程序或者是簡直單純提起公訴一次計量到過免職對公務員的身份得上有重大的影響這部分因為司法程序的非常的冗長那對免職的公務員的身份影響甚巨而且以後萬一判無罪之後要怎樣回復他的工作權或是他的名譽權這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2600.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2628.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個可能沒辦法回復這部分我們建議是不是用其他的替代方式來做處理包括說停職或者懲戒撤職或是休職等其他方式來就責處理另外就病案審查刑事訴訟法第71條還有第175條條文修正草案的部分根據法院組織法第99條的規定訴訟文書有必要的時候可以附近所用的方言或是外國語文 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2629.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2654.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那現在法院於審理案件中都會主動的了解詢問當事人或是關係人員或有無傳譯的必要那我們會在傳喚或是通知的時候附記相關的外國文字或是使用通譯的一些申請書等等告知相關的權利就目前來講我們法院的實務上已經有附在大概有12種的或12種的文書訴訟文書有多國的語言 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2657.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2668.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那這個也提供給必要 訴訟必要的證人被告或者是其他被害人來做參考那所以委員領據的刑事訴訟71條跟175條針對證人跟被告的傳喚的須具備外國語文的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2677.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2707.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們目前在實務上運作已經無礙 而且有提供相關的外國語文的版本所以委員對這個部分我們表示關切 我們非常感佩但就整個整體性來講 醫療法院組織法它是一個整體性的那刑事訴訟職職針對刑事訴訟的部分來做規範所以我們建議這部分先來以整體性的考量上沒有必要在刑事訴訟單一的單純來做修正 以上報告 敬請委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2709.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2712.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位我們請法務部政次 黃政次報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2722.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2739.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
召委 各位委員及各位媒體先進今天奉邀列席貴委員會審議公務人考記法等12條條文修正檔案請代表法務部說明今天相關各專題報告及法案的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2740.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2760.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那如果時間不夠的地方請大家再參閱書面那麼審議就這個公務人員考記法第十二條條文修正草案等五案的部分主要因為這個立法理由有序名是指違反這徵令第十二條第四項第六款的部分是違反刑法第150 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2762.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2778.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
185條之3之規定那麼因為這個185之3它還包括除了這個不能安全駕駛交通除酒類毒品外還包含麻醉藥品還有其他像類似之物那是否增列於本款規定內以符合法律明確性的原則藉其提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2779.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2808.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那麼草案第十二條第五項的規定這個前項第七款人員經不起訴還起訴或無罪判決確定者應撤銷其一次盡二代過處分那依照立法理由所載本項會適用於案件經檢查官提起公訴者一級本項規定會適用於第十二條第四項第七款的但書所規定的部分但是因為刑事案件如果經過檢查官提起公訴的話將由法院審判不會有不起訴還起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2809.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2830.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
處分等等情勢所以這個內容還有一些疑義那也見其並與釐清那麼就這個行政訴訟法第71條及第175條條文修正草案的部分那麼我們的意見跟司法院類似因為本部事實上目前也有超過8種以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2833.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2854.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
訴訟相關的文書都備有英文籍甚至包含印尼、越南、菲律賓、泰文日語、英語等等的譯本所以在相關的保障、人民這些的訴訟權上面已經有所注意我們最主要的疑慮是認為說如果單獨規定傳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2858.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2879.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
上面要記載這個外國語言的話跟這個法院組織法99條跟100條的規定輸送文書應使用我國文字那麼一辦理檢查事務時準用字的規定可能會有些漢格那麼強制規定傳票去使用譯本在實務運作上也會有些困難因為在刑事案件中這個需傳喚之人的國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2881.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2901.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
身份在偵查或審判初期非必然可由捐內資料來確定這樣可能會造成訴訟文書的效力是否有疑的問題所以如果不知道沒有加注後來會不會產生不合法的程序瑕疵其實都會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2902.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2927.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因為相關的異議包含我們書名面所載的部分所以考量法院組織法已經明訂書中文書應用我國文字為原則藉我國有統一制度而且我們也準備了很多譯本相關的書中文書來提醒相關的外籍人士他們的書中的權益所以我們建起再行考量而不一定要這樣子用方式來釘釘以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2930.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2952.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好 謝謝 那請問廉政署副署長有沒有需要進行口頭報告好 那請上台主席 各位委員大家好今天奉命就有關行政中立的議題進行專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2953.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2967.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
公務人員行政中立法第十條對公務人員與公職人員選舉罷免或是公民投票期間不得利用職務上的機會權利或方法要求他能不行使投票權或違定制行使有相關明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2968.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2994.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
而且同法第十四條一規定長官不得要求公務人員從事本法禁止之行為長官堂有違反公務人員亦得檢據相關的事證向該管長官之上級長官提出報告並由上級長官依法處理未依法處理者以失職論而權序部一百一十二年九月二十日書函的相關事事一指出公務人員與公職人員選舉罷免期間除不得違反公立法之 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2995.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3023.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
規範外亦不得動用行政資源利用職務關係等支持或反對特定政黨公職候選人權序部的上階含釋中更指出行政中立法第十四條第一項的規定長官含政務官及民選首長不得要求公務人員從事中立法禁止之行為以為政府機關行政中立之公正形象故可認政務人員及民選首長重非行政中立法直接適用或准用的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3024.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3043.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
為在公職人員選舉罷免活動期間亦有不得要求公務員從事違反行政中立法禁止行為之義務和責任權序部於歷次選舉罷免活動期間均會通函各機關要求及宣導行政中立法及公務員服務法之相關規定同一時間 廉政署亦會通函要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3044.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3069.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所屬的各政風機構於機關內應用多種的場合跟機會適時的提醒同仁辦理各項業務跟活動務須刻尊行政中立的原則以為程序公正跟機關形象另外要求各政風機構加強對機關同仁宣導反賄選以及相關妨礙選舉勢力的有關規定以及藉由期先防堵風險預警的概念避免機關同仁不慎處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3070.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3095.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
令選舉罷免活動期間 黨階或民眾舉發或相關的勢力而是於適用行政中立法發生異議自應由法規的主管機關來示意並由各機關的人事主管單位來主責確認至相關的指數如果涉及是否違反公職人員選舉罷免法且可能涉及刑事責任最終自應由司法機關來偵查確認而相關過程中 政風機構基於職責跟機關議題業務協力的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3099.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3128.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
必要時也會適時的協助人事單位或經機關首長的要求進行必要的查證並視相關的查證結果提供人事單位或司法偵查機關參儲或提醒機關首長促請業務單位的主管跟同仁注意改進以共同提升政府機關各部門的治理成效以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝那其餘提出書面報告的機關有沒有要進行口頭報告沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3130.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3149.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
好 那機關代表報告完畢 相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3159.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3188.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
心理主席喔 麻煩有請考試院巡視部的部長麻煩請考試院人事總處人事長中選會主任委員司法院刑事廳廳長以及法務部廉政署好 副署長各位好 時間的關係不宜問候先請法務部廉政署副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3190.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3218.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
吹哨者保護法在1月22號刪除通過了以後目前7月22號生效了沒錯吧是那依照公務依照吹哨者保護法要設的吹哨者保護委員會設好了沒有現在正在設立現在正在設立在有關相關的還需要多久7月20號不就已經生效了嗎7月22號生效對啊 今天幾號那委員正在甄選當中你們前面六個月在幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3219.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3246.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
也相當在進行啊對啊之前你們就是因為施行需要時間嘛給你們六個月嘛7月22號現在正式施行了啊依法要設立的委員會到現在沒有設起來這樣對嗎這樣是依法行政嗎我們已經在籌設當中對嘛所以啊現在公務機關的托詞是什麼給你六個月的時間準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3248.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3265.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
法律已經生效所以你現在還在仇赦那如果你現在還在仇赦依照新的吹哨者保護法這個委員會的法定執掌事項是誰在做法律真空狀態法律有規定沒有人要執行是這樣嗎這個是廉政署依法行政的態度嗎應該這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3274.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3298.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這是廉政署依法行政的態度嗎法律生效但我廉政署主管的要設吹哨車保護委員會我還沒設法律形同句文啊因為沒有人執行啊我有說錯嗎還需要多久還需要多久應該在半個月到一個月內可以回去喔 請轉告部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3299.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3329.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我對於法務部啊 這樣的效率啊完全沒有辦法苟同完全沒辦法苟同給你們六個月六個月給你們準備在幹什麼法律正式生效都還沒有設起來跟委員報告 我想這是一個來 繼續往下廉政署可以認定個案有沒有違反行政中立嗎可以不可以我們沒有直接去認定沒有 好 來沒有 來看一下 奇怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3330.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3356.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
民進黨新竹市大團領導人林志傑你們應該很熟啦連政署應該常找他啦直接說啦連政署認證高雄安邱成遠違反行政中立他說的是真的還假的我想我們沒有直接講出邱市長的名字吧那所以是林志傑在散播假訊息嗎是不是這個你不知道但是你就你知道的回答就好了第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3357.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3360.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
聯政署有沒有認定高雄安修成員違反行政中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3361.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3391.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
有還是沒有應該是說他們在處理那個活動的過程當中新竹市政府的相關承辦人員在活動現場的管理上面有相當的一個 有一點疏忽所以我們認為說是不是新竹市政府應該做一些相關的檢討所以你有發函給林志傑是不是我不確定我們是發函給誰奇怪 那個林志傑說收到廉政署回函 上面是密件 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3392.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3408.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
廉政署編的密件是密件嗎還是廉政署編的密件內容可以揭露請廉政署表達立場我們因為設密件是對於相關它是告訴人告發人基於它告訴人告發人的保障的立場我們用密件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3409.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3434.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那所以把這個密件的內容公開有沒有違反泄密罪至於密件的內容公開這個不是我們可以去確定的一個問題奇怪了 你們廉政署自己發密件自己的密件被公開自己都沒立場喔官官相護成這個樣子喔沒有官官相護對啊 所以我就問你嘛廉政署編的密件內容可不可以公開公開有沒有違反泄密罪有還是沒有還是廉政署也沒立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3438.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3456.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這個不是沒有立場的問題啦對啊 那所以你的立場是什麼就講清楚啦有些人自己要把資料都公開的話那我們沒有其他的意思奇怪 公務人員對於刑事犯罪行為不是依照職權有依法告發的職責嗎更何況你是廉政署耶推得這麼乾淨喔蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3459.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3485.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
刑事訴訟法的規定公務員的規定遇到刑事犯罪行為是不是要依照職權告發相關的處理過程當中也許市政府他們相關的承辦人員在活動現場的管理過程當中設有疏失我們並沒有指高鴻安市長這不是我現在在問的問題這一趴的問題是上一趴的問題嘛現在你說要有立場那我去問啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3487.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3514.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
你們編的密件被公開了有沒有違反洩密罪這個問題不敢回答喔因為貼出來的人是林志傑所以你不敢回答是不是貼出來是誰我不知道對沒關係那你就回答嘛洩密罪要不要辦我們可以來瞭解啦可以來瞭解好請回去瞭解需要多久的時間瞭解一個月好一個月來下一個你認識吳啟明嗎我認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3517.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3546.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以這個吳祈明幫你去關說的事情你不知道你完全不知道所以吳祈明很雞婆喔大力推薦你欸大力推薦你欸這麼雞婆喔來再問一下依照我們廉政登錄你應該很熟嘛對不對是好有人跟部長請託關說要不要做廉政登錄要不要要吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3547.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3571.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
要不要如果是涉及到有關權利義務的行使的話當然啊部長要升誰官怎麼會沒有權利的行使這權利大著呢如果要做廉政登錄的話蔡清祥被請託官說這件事情有沒有做廉政登錄這個我不清楚要不要回去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3573.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3596.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個是不是廉政署該處理的事如果不是廉政署該處理的事是誰主管請說明法務部會主管法務部哪一個單位主管法務部有相關的政風小組會處理法務部的政風小組好 回去告訴部長蔡清祥接受這個請託官說有沒有廉政登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3598.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3616.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
請法務部一個禮拜書面回覆請法務部一個禮拜書面回覆你已經講很清楚了吧涉及到權力行使的請託官說要做廉政登錄我相信這個你很熟啦一個禮拜之內書面回覆來 下一位請人事長選區部部長也一起上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3621.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3650.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們今天討論行政中立這務官當然沒有行政中立的問題嘛續產會董事長一年領台灣人三百萬農業部說要借重藏財推動改革結果很閒啊一天到晚在雲林搞大罷免這上班時間喔這上班時間喔上班時間在雲林搞大罷免雲林的鄉親看不下去啊我們政府就有錢的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3652.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3671.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
一年花300萬養一個人然後再幫執政黨搞大罷免這個國家到底怎麼了這國家到底怎麼了我問農業部這樣OK嗎他說他要回去調查調查到現在三個禮拜沒有給我回覆來 任市長這個行為OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3677.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3704.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
按照我們目前的規定是農業部底下首署的法人的負責人他也要遵循行政中立的相關規定他這樣有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法我們必須要去確認他有沒有請假如果沒有請假就是先等一下這分兩個部分喔他在上班的時間稿那你說他要遵循公務人員行政中立的規定這樣子的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3705.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3732.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
有算有遵守公務人員行政中立的規定嗎不然請教就不可以請教就可以去有一些有限度的一些協助宣導來看一下這個算不算你有限度的協助宣導你今天在上面講的話你要想清楚喔我向來的原則很清楚同一個標準一律適用不要因人設事 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3734.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3737.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
不要是因為是民進黨陰系的大佬幫他開後門啦這樣的行為有沒有跨線 有沒有 講清楚喔他的身份事實上是不倚啦 他的身份是不倚哇 這麼模糊喔 用不倚喔 是不倚還是不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3757.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3781.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
不宜不應該都收工啦 就不可以就對了啦不可以就對了嘛 現在就有了 要怎麼處理主管機關要去調查清楚啊現在在拖啊 拖三星期啊能拖就拖 能混就混啊 是要混多久來 任市長 注意聽喔回去 你主動跟農業部聯絡所以我今天質詢這件事情 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3782.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3808.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
一起辦看要辦多久我一定繼續等下去你也知道我的習慣我追一件事情我一定會一直追下去追到有答案為止可以嗎沒問題好來接下來這個就跟你有關係了軍公教待遇調整法治化我大概在這個委員會每一次看到你我每一次問每一次看到你我每一次問去年你們跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3809.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3834.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我非常的不高興我本來想要用動行政院人事總署凍結預算部分預算的方式來請你們履行義務結果你們後來找人來跟我溝通說先不要動人事長保證一定會做我聽了沒有第二句話我馬上就撤了因為我們凍結預算的目的是要逼你們做事嘛你今天給我承諾說你會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3836.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3864.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我這個人很阿莎莉的就事論事我測 我相信你結果咧行政院研議中你的職責你有送到行政院有行政院在研議嗎我跟委員報告一下整個程序啦沒有啦 整個程序我非常熟12月份所有的性評相關的程序都我知道啦我都有在追啦我只有一個問題啦行政院還要研議多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3866.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3889.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
其實這件事我都有去拜託行政院很快所以你去拜託行政院沒要參與就對了他有什麼其他的考慮我們行政院很忙嗎現在是不是又討論到現在是不是又討論到公務人員明年要不要加薪的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3892.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3919.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個禮拜一8月11號我們已經啟動第一個階段找金公教的相關的工協會來對嘛 你啟動找他們來他們在外面喊什麼他們要的是公務人員條新機制法治化嘛我有沒有講錯委員講的是對的對啊 所以我就問啊我們現在行政院是太忙還是太閒還是一天到晚腦袋裡面只剩下大罷免大成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3921.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3948.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
整個頭殼只剩下大罵免大成功政務官下去搞大罵免大成功說要剿匪那剿匪到底啊整個行政院到底在幹什麼啊公務人員調清機制的法治化這不涉及到政黨不涉及到顏色涉及的只有一件事公務人員權利的保障可以混成這樣喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3950.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3969.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
你行政院是很沒影響啊 到底是在沒影響當然你站在上面 你聽我這樣講你也很無奈啦啊 我就上去了啊 左榮泰在混 左榮泰在拖站在那邊 被我這樣子罵的應該是左榮泰 不是你任市長 你內心的小劇場是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3970.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3998.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不是啦 我總是覺得行政院有他更多元的考量而且他沒有關係啊 好請今天行政院發新聞稿告訴全台灣社會他有什麼多元的考量不要只是說我們還在積極的研議本院聆聽社會各方的高見我們還在積極的研議當中他有什麼考量公開跟全國的公務人員講嘛用混的喔 用拖的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3999.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4013.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我希望啦 你不要讓行政院害到我這樣說你應該怕有啦好 來 再來國發基金不當投資我之前在調查委員會的時候我發現 這很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4014.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4040.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我們的國發基金在負責管理國發基金的執密還參與個案的審查結果離開國發基金執行長的角色以後馬上跑去另外一家公司當董事而那個公司國發基金會投資就是在他任內做的然後他還是會議主席耶可以這樣搞喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4042.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4068.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們現在的公務員迴轉門的條款已經鬆到什麼我再解釋一次喔我再解釋一次我是國發基金管理委員會的執行秘書平常行政都我在管這個投資案我是會議主席支持投資結果呢 自己下台了以後跑去那個他要投資的公司當董事可以這樣搞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4070.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4097.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
還是人事長這不關你的事是選區部的事我了解應該國發會員有在調查啦調查多久了你知不知道現在一樣繼續拖嗎沒有 我只要從法規範的角度嘛告訴全台灣人民嘛我們國發基金這樣搞是對的嗎我做會議主席決定要投資這家公司我離開國發會了以後去這家公司當董事可以這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4099.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4115.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我看沒有啊可以這樣搞嗎來 請人事長我的了解也是要有主管機關他們去調查調查中有疑義他會跟全序部去請教來 請全序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4117.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4141.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
跟委員報告這個案子我知道他們應該在調查中然後曾經有問全局部的意見那我們基本上用服務法的觀念來講就是基本上個案還是應該他要根據服務法的那個那個選擇我們條款所以大家還在踢皮球就對了這不踢皮球我們把那個條款好沒關係啦所以要負責任的是國發會嘛對不對對好沒有關係喔今天一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4143.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4160.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
算我個人 拜託啦 我公開拜託 任市長跟全序部回去打一通電話 給國發會的主委給國發會的主委 可以這樣搞調查這麼久 繼續混 都不出力喔可以這樣幹嗎民進黨執政的關鍾敗壞成什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4166.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4179.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我再說一次民進黨執政的關鍾敗壞成什麼樣子啊我們從這個案子民進黨政府要怎麼處理開始檢驗好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員接下來我們請羅委員代理主席請吳宗憲委員詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4198.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4215.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
謝謝 那我們麻煩部長還有秘書長師父長 秘書長兩位好我先請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4216.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4242.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
部長就我有個問題就是說有一個部的次長他在他稱說在野黨都是共匪那我想請問一下從部長的角度來看一個次長級的人講這句話這個是否適當報告委員我想這個次長這個上面寫的他已經說謝謝批評了我想他應該知道這樣講法不是那麼適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4245.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4265.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
因為我也不懂說為什麼我們好好一個人大家都有念書努力為國家做事要用匪這個字來形容有時候你罵人家什麼匪什麼匪其實其實這個法律上面甚至有可能構成公然侮辱那我為什麼不懂為什麼今天只要不是民進黨都被叫做共匪這個什麼混蛋邏輯那沒關係講這種話的人我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4271.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4282.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
應該這麼說啦我覺得在726罷免投完票之後我覺得世界各大媒體包括親民進黨的日本的各個媒體其實都下了非常重而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4283.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4302.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我覺得那個論述其實對某些特定的政治人物來說你們是不是在搞一個傷害民進黨的事情那一個次長罵我們在野黨是共匪我覺得我是不接受他其實輕描淡寫的這樣回應我也是不認同那我這邊先跟您說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4304.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4314.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以我請問一下 所以部長如果以您的角度來說您認為這個言論是適當的嗎我不認為適當因為這個已經全稱說政治不應該這樣的一個說法那請問秘書長你認為這句話適當嗎就罵在野黨是匪這個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4331.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4355.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我是覺得不同的政黨會有不同的政治立場但是在互動或者是在措辭上我想政務官應該要有更多的自治好 謝謝民事長我想我覺得這是一個長期以來的問題就是說我們對於公務員一般常任文官我們有很嚴格的法律規定就他在行政上面必須要中立但是我們對於政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4356.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4375.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
卻沒有相類似的要求但我們的行政中立法裡面其實他並不是說政務官不用他只是要另立專法請問兩位認不認同這句話在第二條其實有他其實講得非常清楚不是政務官不用負責而是政務官跟常任文官的性質不一樣所以他要另立專法來辦處理這個行政中立這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4379.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4383.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我跟委員報告是不是容許我稍微講一點點應該這樣講所有拿政府薪水的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4389.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4409.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
它對於處理行政過程都一定要守法那這個守法有平常的事情有在選舉的事情所以有不同你可以有不同的一個領域去規範那確實公務人員因為特別被規範他政治活動老實說我們的行政中立法講的是政治活動的參與主體是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4411.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4430.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以我們對公務人員要求他應該要沒有黨派之分所以我們對行政我們專門訂了行政綜立法規範公務人員就是他不可以參與積極參與政治活動那這個在全世界有不同國家不同的定義不過台灣目前的法治就是這樣子那個部長我想但是是不是同學是對政務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4431.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4447.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
不同的國家確實不會用公務人員這個標準去看待這句話我認同其實同一個問題我已經質詢兩位好幾次了我知道就我國目前對於常任務官有非常嚴格的行政總理的要求對於政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4447.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4461.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
他目前沒有但是行政中立法他並不是說政務官不需要維持行政中立他只是說因為他的性質特殊他要另立專法但是我請教兩位這個所謂的專法已經這麼多年了請問專法出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4462.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4484.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
应该跟委员报告这个当初行政中立法应该是大概十几年前立的那时候我还没有到政府部门当初我当初论述了一个背景那我还是要重申行政中立法里面对于政务首长也有他应该遵守的一个义务那是14条那其他部分政务人员如果涉及到我们讲如果除了是选举 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4485.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4498.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
不要是政治活動參與這個部分其實就是在公務人員服務法一般性的規範沒有 像剛剛那個黃委員他有給你們看的照片以及這一路以來我們看到很多我國目前的政務官的發言甚至我覺得是已經到 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4500.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4519.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
由部會首長級的來造謠的這個程度了在預算的時候有非常多那我的告發呢法務部部長只跟我說已經立案了但是就沒有然後了這就是我目前對我國司法很不屑的地方因為我國司法已經自甘墮落到已經到不要臉的程度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4520.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4549.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
對於國會議員在北檢或是在國會這邊的告發就只有用一個已經立案了後續就沒有了但是對於特定的陣營的司法偵辦卻是鋪天蓋地不要以為我看不懂啦真的不要以為我們看不懂我國目前實務上面法官檢察官律師出身的人非常的多大家都看得懂但我覺得這個政府要荒謬到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4550.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4568.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我就等著看然後我每一次我就會把事實先出來給大家我覺得這樣子才對得起國人那我覺得我現在司法人員以及非常多的政務官我覺得那可以用不要臉來形容因為你在做事情甚至你喊出來的違憲譬如說我們的內政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4569.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4592.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
講那個說什麼公務員對於國家有忠誠的義務結果呢在那邊喊違憲的就是他啊在那邊喊台灣國這不就違憲嗎那我國的憲法什麼時候我國的憲法跟徵修條文什麼時候有中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這句話就他竟然可以公開講這句話自己沒有念書就算了還在誤導國人這是我對於這些政務官我認為他們都 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4594.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4607.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
拿著國家的薪水在做政治攻擊的事情這是我覺得不應該的尤其是一個我們剛剛講了一個次長一年領超過250萬結果呢次長他不是把薪資用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4608.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4624.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
管理家暴方面的這種案件的降低或者是兒童的專責機構等等的讓他能夠運作順暢他不是在搞這個他反而是跳出來罵在野黨是共匪我真的覺得這不能這樣做那而且我也請 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4625.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4647.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
兩位 我們政務官相關的法律規定以及行政中立的規範到底什麼時候才要出來草案在那裡已經這麼多年了但是我都沒有看到最後的結果我不知道兩位到底誰要處理這件事因為之前是考試院那個嘛草案是考試院推的嘛 對不對最早是考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4649.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4668.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
考試院的部會的法案都是考試院送來立法院那它的主管機關還是在權敘部所以就是說過去那些草案借取不敘審或者是換屆之後那每一屆其實對這個事情有會有不一定有相同的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4669.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4697.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那剛剛部長在報告的時候其實他的意思就是說政務官行政中立相關規定在目前行政中立法還是有他需要去遵守的地方謝謝秘書長那我再跟兩位說明一下因為如果說考試院或權序部都不推的話那我們這邊就直接立法院這邊就直接推然後我們這邊來讓立法通過因為我們現在沒有辦法放任就是說政務官他只用一個說我政務官不受公務員行政中立法的完全約束所以我愛怎麼樣就怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4698.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4726.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
每一次很多政務官他公開的我們質疑他的時候他的說法都說我又沒有行政中立的問題但不是這樣嘛對不對完全不是這樣嘛所以這個不立法的你們推草案的怠惰不能變成是政務官他推卸責任的一個理由這是我個人的認為那我再請問一下就是部長 市部長你知不知道2022年7月18號是什麼日子 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4730.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4749.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
2022年的718不為難就是我跟你說這個日子是疫情就是我們那時候COVID-19的時候疫情最高峰的那一天當天確診人數到17549人然後當天死亡人數是48人結果我們中央疫情指揮中心那時候進行新就任指揮官交接的日子 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4750.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4768.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
陳時中前部長跟薛瑞元部長他們在交接的時候陳時中在記者會開口第一句說請會次一票因為他當時要出來選舉那我請問一下這個交接的記者會這個是不是執行公務還是他請假的日子 時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4770.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4778.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我想記者會應該不會利用請假時間去開對不對這是一個正式的公務那可以在公務的時候記者會的時候去講這句話嗎適不適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4782.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4799.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
委員 因為個案我真的不知情他是交接還是卸任就是他的交接就是2022年7月18日好 那我請教您就是因為您不是個案當事人是不是合在公務的記者會上面講一句說請會次一票 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4800.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4821.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
适不适合这个当然是我想如果是公务的记者会就是公务时间我想就当然不是这部分再麻烦部长了解一下我想说这也是一个例子如果说部长在交接的时候我想交接不会用私下的请假时间去做交接交接一定是公开的记者会一定是公务时间 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4821.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4841.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那這個時候適不適合在公務的記者會那邊說請會次一票那這當然就是陳時中現在仇恨值也很高那我們就不管他但是我想說這個可能再請您了解一下到底適不適合好不好那您剛也說如果是公務的記者會上面是不適合做這個請會次一票的這種論述因為他後來參選台北市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4844.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4860.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
如果這個字真的是個案很複雜如果是卸任的時候因為當天他就已經不是那個身份了當事人就不是那個身份如果不是在卸任的時候那當然他還是政務的身份所以說有可能是卸任之後才交接是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4863.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4880.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是我是說啦利用公務的記者會上面說這個是不宜對不對這一句話應該沒有問題嘛好那我再問一下部長那你認不認同政務人員應該跟事務官一樣受到行政中立法的約束您剛剛其實有講一部分了請說我認為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4881.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4904.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
基本上它要受到約束現在行政中立法14條當然已經講得很清楚它不可以只是同仁違反做行政中立法的事情撇開這以外因為如果行政中立指的是政治活動的參與因為我們行政中立法真的絕大部分是在講管制政治活動的行為那一個政務首長或民選的行政首長你對於他的政治活動的行為的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4905.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4924.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
應該是限於說他不能用上班的時間不能使用公共資源去做我想這是大原則那其他對公務人員更細的規範我就不見得是適合他所以那是應該另外的討論好 那沒關係 我再講就是說因為我這段時間我們看到了尤其是之前的726之前的那個罷免整個全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4926.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4942.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
全國除了政治人物之外政務官 我國行政院各部會都跳下去搞大罷免其實這是我覺得一個國家走到今天這樣難怪外交處處碰壁 關稅談成這樣然後現在就是繼續大內宣美化就只能這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4944.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4970.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
一個國家的公務員政務官無心於國家的治理的結果就是我們今天看到這樣結果造成什麼總統行政院長的滿意度不停的下降不信任度不停的上升所以不要再跟我講這段時間你們做的都沒有錯啦我們搞大罷免這個是公民的權利不要再騙我那個了然後不要再說你過去這一年多的執政是做的多好 多麼正通人和都不用騙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4971.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4989.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
從世界各國媒體對於我們這次罷免的批評以及這一次民調包括有機構效應的民調做出來對於總統以及行政院長的信任度都下降成這樣我覺得可以代表的是其實真的出問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4991.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5005.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
政務官的不中立是我們都看在眼裡而且是非常的嚴重而且是前一段時間拿著假的預算的訊息到這裡來騙人我覺得這可惡至極你就躲在大法官的背後大法官反正官員來這邊說謊沒有任何責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5009.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5028.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
違反世界民主國家正常化的樣子世界正常的民主國家官員到國會哪敢說謊就我們的官員來這裡說謊當日常說謊跟呼吸一樣自然完全沒有任何約束的能力這就是我國的憲政制度所以我自己看到最後我也是很懷疑民主政治不是責任政治嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5029.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5055.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們台灣竟然發生了一個沒有責任的政治這非常的特別我想這也是將來政治學者他們會研究的一個很好玩的地方竟然有一個國家官員說不說謊是靠道德來約束到國會說謊沒有任何責任其實非常的有趣不過也是一個悲哀過去我想發生過很多事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5056.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5074.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
本來立法院三減凍結預算是正常的一個政治互動搞到最後變成是全面的對立那年初預算草翻天然後後來又有公務員出來爆料說長官要他們解凍案不要送不准送解凍案喔到最後一堆人出來爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5076.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5097.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
然後還有國會的聯絡人私下也跟我說沒辦法 長官要求不能送我覺得這丟臉至極這行政院長也有夠丟臉的然後不只這樣外交部說護照快發布出來就後來被人家揭穿說去年就印了180萬本跟預算凍結根本沒關就這政務官屆還敢不要臉的出來亂扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5099.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5126.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這前兩天那更好笑前兩天那個被韓國洗臉被韓國洗臉外交丟臉丟這麼大就出來又在那邊喊說因為預算被凍結的關係我覺得這胡說八道至極然後再來我剛剛還有提到的像內政部長劉世芳他說租金補貼10月或11月會用光但實際預算有414.67億凍結才40多億他要解凍很快就部長可以跳出來說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5127.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5138.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那陳時中他跑去草屯正幫那個當時的要選政長的站台然後接下來還有什麼蕭美琴 林飛帆洪森漢 林佳龍這些全部都在那邊喊罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5139.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5161.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
然後我就在座的這個那個中選會主委嘛李主委也是啊李主委你不是還李主委不用上台李主委你還在那邊講說告急搶救等等的那可能跟民調有關這個都違反選罷法你自己在選舉的時候你不是也講出來你不是也在喊告急所以我覺得政務官就是充斥了很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5162.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5182.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
完全行政不中立然後在那邊跟著那邊搞政治攻擊這是我看到目前的我國的政治不要講別的我跟你講 脫去立法委員的身分我也是一個國民我一個國民的角度來看說今天的政府施政到這個程度政務官自甘墮落到這個程度其實我也是看不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5183.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5209.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
後來我想想過去20幾年當公務員我覺得自己很笨為什麼我這麼的嚴守法律到現在今天我還是覺得嚴守法律是我這輩子的義務結果看到一堆幹大官的學長們自己都不遵守法律心中只有顏色我說話我絕對負每一個責任我想剛剛跟兩位說明的就是我國這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5211.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5224.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
政務官這個行政總理的這個部分因為法制的部分現在一直還沒有辦法通過所以我想請問一下兩位目前有沒有進度或是將來多久內有可能會把這個法案送到立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5229.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5250.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
有沒有這個計畫我跟委員報告任何有關法律的立定特別像平常我們公務人員中立法是適用從全台灣各級政府如果我們去訂一個不管報告委員有提一個草案我都有看到或者叫政務官不管是什麼法他的適用對象一定是從中央一直到 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5251.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5267.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
地方政府所以我想我們必須先理解這個是我想委員應該理解所以那個樣態非常非常多中央跟地方樣態也許有的不太一樣所以是真的需要我覺得真的需要更多的一個討論謝謝部長其他就主管機關本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5268.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5293.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
一個政務人員的主管機關是不是適合放在考試院呢我想委員應該可以多多討論基本上我推的版本大概主要也是參考考試院之前所提的第二個是我絕對認同政務官的行政中立要求一定要有別於常任文官我百分之百認同所以我們在規範密度上面我們都盡量不要那麼的重我們盡量就把它規範清楚就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5294.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5319.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
施行之後有需要再修法什麼那當然我們也是歡迎各界的指教因為目前我所了解這段時間我們已經質詢好幾次了那個考試院跟全局部這邊目前都沒有推法案的計畫所以我們這邊還是要按照我們的步驟來進行這部分先跟兩位說明一下那最後因為沒有時間了我想說那考積法的一個小問題我想說我們都 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5320.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5331.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們大家都是公務員出身的我們都知道一個現在目前一個狀況就是因為之前的權益部長周志宏有提過就是現行這個甲等比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5332.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5353.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個東西其實是當初他們開會就是權益部長跟行政院人事長大家討論之後的結果所以假等的比例不超過75%有25%的人要列考椅但是這個東西畢竟它是一個潛規則它不是一個明文對不對 部長是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5354.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5375.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
他是一個根據決議所做的行政指示所以這個現在在各機關內其實大家都會有一些意見像我們以前剛分發分發第一年有烤雞的那一年菜鳥一定是拿一等公家機關都這樣我們也經歷過那個時代或者是有調動一定是一等現在有一個問題就是說現在大家會覺得一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5379.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5401.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
而基層公務員沒辦法接受就是檢任官的甲等比例是94到96幾乎人人都甲等 兼任大概是78到82但是委任職等就只有71到73甚至有一年掉到67但是我們也都知道其實公務部門裡面基層公務員常常是最辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5402.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5424.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所以這個變成說好像非高官然後受小吏這個感覺出來所以這個東西有沒有辦法做一些改變請問一下 部長我跟委員報告當然對於這個拿假跟拿贏拿到的人有不同的感受這個是一定有 我們都可以理解但是這個事情要怎麼去調整它 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5425.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5447.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我想已經討論了應該是超過十幾年也曾經有送過一些法案到立法院來那都大概也沒有辦法繼續完成審查就表示它影響很大需要更多的共識來討論那確實我們目前內部也繼續在討論這個事情那內部的討論方式當然也知道說我們有沒有可能用什麼方式來減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5448.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5467.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
被批评的这些现象现在确实有在内部有在讨论这个议题因为我想考机法第二条其实讲得很清楚公务员的考机是那个他要中富民实 对不对然后信赏必乏他并不是说以职等或者是官位的高低来去做区别但目前从比例上面来看确实是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5467.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5495.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
因為這是一種說法那另外一種說法所謂綜合名詞就是以它的工作量跟複雜程度跟對機關的重要性來講那可能又是另外一個解釋所以我跟委員報告說您也在檢查體系待過那麼久大概這樣的一個說明就是說同樣一件事情可能有不同人有不同的一個說法那這樣好不好就是說能不能夠把這段時間你們的研究因為已經我看了一下就是考試院也有說過要研議修正但是已經20幾年了那是不是可以把你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5496.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5518.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
後續有一些研議的成果先給我看一下讓我參考一下目前可能還不適合我想我會後是不是跟委員辦公室報告一下因為有一些討論但是沒有真正具體的還沒有聚焦東西出來我想現在沒有條文這種概念因為我考量的一個點因為現在要當公務員的人越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5519.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5542.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那他基層進來他很多人都不想來你也知道這幾年考公務員的人真的變得很少那我們公務員怎麼樣吸引人才進來我想公務員不強大國家不會強大對不對所以有人講你如果用二流的人來治理國家來治理一流的人那你一流的人要怎麼辦那這邊再麻煩一下那個部長跟我談一下這塊謝謝部長 謝謝秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5560.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5568.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好 現在我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝召委有請我們中選會李主委好 麻煩李主委司法院理聽長麻煩理聽長其實國家不是要有一流的公務人員這個國家才會進步這個國家如果沒有一流的立法委員這個國家才是會完蛋那我想我要來就教一下那個李主委就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5590.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5618.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
823要公投要公投當然就是說這個核三要不要去重啟在整個公投法裡面的規定因為兩位都是法學專家我想來就教就是說其實在我們核管法有規定立法院剛通過的核管法裡面講說這個核電廠主管機關認為安全無虞的話他可以啟動這個研議立法院剛通過這個核管法 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5618.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5648.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
然後呢接下來立法院就提出一個公投這當然是一個複決性的一個公投公投是沒有的東西我要來把它創製那有的東西我不喜歡我要把它給否決掉就是這兩個東西嘛創製跟複決嘛那這一次啊河山研議啊它是一個複決性的一個公投就是說行政部門認為河山你把它除役了那我要來發動民意來告訴你政府說 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5648.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5671.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我要繼續讓它運轉下去到最後它公投的主文也是講說經主管機關同意所以這個了不起最大的一個意義我不能公投當然是一個補充性的一個制度我也不否定說發動河山研議的一個公投它有任何違法的地方畢竟立法院所提出的一個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5671.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5681.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
他了不起 他只是在再次的確認說問問老百姓 河山要不要研議但問題來了 為什麼問題來了43年前 國民黨在執政的時候那年代 你就知道有一個政府把蘭嶼當成一個核廢料的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5692.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5696.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
暫時儲存廠一放 放了這四十幾年現在有10萬277桶也不知道要去哪裡政府就開始說不然我們來立法我們來立法說我們來種核廢料最終儲存廠看要不要放大堆給地方去做公投那政府就開始去選址了一次要選兩個當初選很多人選了之後政府現在選到哪裡選到達仁鄉 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5721.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5742.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
跟金門金門你要發動地方你要這個地方上你要放核廢料你當一個核廢料的最終處置場的話要叫經過地方同意金門縣政府我就不可以給你發動地方公投所以你拿他沒辦法台東更好玩了台東他更厲害了我就不要給他制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5744.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5764.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
地方公投條例所以台東縣他也沒有公投沒有法源沒有法源好了兩位法學專家你試著去把它想想看核廢料尤其是低階的核廢料你要放在什麼地方都必須要地方來做公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5764.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5789.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那一個核電廠那你讓他研議以後每天去製造新的核廢料出來你跟他說地方都不能表達意見這對嘛能源政策要不要選擇我認為全民可以來表達意見可是要把他放到別人的家裡面主委你有沒有覺得這怪怪的嘛你如果放在你婚禮沒在跟你拼命的我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5792.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5801.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
國民黨也吃了很多禮物,在台東那裡,竹籃那裡放在那裡,就像噴射釘而已,他就說這叫做環境正義,我適時抵抗,噴射釘也沒辦法做。部分隊要跟蘭嶼、合衛廖、錢義、花蓮、秀琳鄉,部分黨派,小美群出來示警、反對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5815.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5840.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
高金也出來反對 只要去做地質鑽探準備要看那裡有設立核電廠的核廢料的低階核廢料儲存廠而已 大家都反對現在來了 現在剛才說要把我們放大核三長要繼續來研議 繼續研議代表什麼意思繼續生產 每天生產核廢料嘛 核廢料你要放一堆去 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5842.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5863.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這部分我們不知道要怎麼處理的就是說低階核廢料要放什麼地方要地方商來同意那生產核廢料在哪一個縣市生產核廢料不需要地方來同意你有沒有覺得這個我們在整個公投法的法源裡面有所疏漏的地方請教兩位好 謝謝委員的指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5870.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5881.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這個有關於低階核廢料的處置最終的場所必須是經過地方性來做公民投票來作為決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5882.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5908.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那剛剛委員所提到的這個問題在現行的公投法上面在公投法上面有沒有一些準用解釋的空間因為以前並沒有發生這樣子的案例那委員提出來之後我們會針對這個問題在會內會進行研究如果有具體個案的時候也會經過委員會的這個審議之後我們會做成一個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5909.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5934.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
普通啊 一個公道出來日本人當然現在立法權膨脹這個以現在的政治情勢是必然啦人家在野黨本來加起來人數比較多他不膨脹他又不是呆子他當然要膨脹但問題就是說啊很多涉及到啊整個公共議題的時候啊太草率了你像比如說對地方衝擊到的他沒有辦法表達聲音只要立法院提出來的公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5936.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5940.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
你像這間那四個月而已你去看其他的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5942.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5966.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
他們在做公道 你說跟國際醫治比高 水數四年到八年才完全公道美國加州才要一年 我們這案子 四個月 四個月受影響的居民 或者說這一些核安的專家 或者環保的團體他都沒有辦法來參與這樣的一個程序 我覺得這個可惜的地方那本時呢 現在我都給他丟大臉 我來講一個故事給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5969.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5992.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
1965年台電開始在台灣各地要去選址然後呢1971年石門鄉合一廠取得許可1985年河山廠兩部機組運轉後南北六部機組全數到位1996年我們開始在找合約要最終的一個處置的一個場所找尋境外地點我們就跟北韓提出合作的一個意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5993.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5997.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
結果南韓知道之後 早來台電跟我們抗議就是1997年南韓反對 然後到台電大樓進行抗議反對台電跟北韓簽訂輸出核廢料到朝鮮半島的一個密約1996年台東大武的大武達人 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6015.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6037.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
為核廢料處置候選的長職風聲一個傳出之後 夭壽的地方大家就反對議員說 你政府欠50億就要來把我們的環境都破壞掉了台東就跟你反對了到現在呢 台東就跟你講 我這裡發電管工啦我這裡有機農業啦 所以你們都不要跟我來啦好 核廢料就完全沒有辦法有任何地方去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6040.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6067.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
金門也一樣啦 烏丘 金門關鍵戶就是說我就不可以跟你辦公道啦你有地方性公投又怎麼樣你有法院 地方政府我就是不辦所以啊 在2006年低放射性的廢棄物追蹤處置設置的條例在立法院三讀通過2008年經濟部開始去選址2009年呢 排灣族的一個反核的宣言就出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6068.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6071.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
2009年這個選址的報告出爐以後那個就真的非常非常的一個好玩就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6084.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6089.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
你把達仁鄉跟澎湖縣的一個望安的冬季雨為候選的一個場址啊排灣族啊在台東的部分啊他就去連結我們因為跟屏東比較近近啊排灣族都撤回了海島河是那個他說多可怕的想法你們竟然想用50億購買這片土地只為了丟棄你們自己製造出來沒有辦法處理的核廢料只為了將那些危害你們生命的有害物質丟的離你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6113.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6136.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
越遠越好你們卻不在乎原住民就講了這裡是我們的家園是我的族人世世代代安身立命之所在你們做決定之前有問過我們嗎同樣的要把核廢料放在地方上不應該別人來幫要放在那個地方的居民來做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6137.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6156.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
核廢料要放大堆 要問當地的居民何況是你要到當地去生產核廢料 只因為在別的地方我們要來享受這樣的一個電力 總之我們大家說我們酒酒的喔我們酒酒的來給它公投 總之給它放大檳榔就好 才會通今天他們要把它放大台檔 國民黨反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6162.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6178.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
民眾黨也反對 今天一定要把他放大花蓮國民黨反對 民眾黨也會反對這就是目前的一個政治嘛然後呢 那個宣言裡面這樣講 我再把它念完他說 這是我的家幫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6180.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6195.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
不容你們任意的侵犯你們沒有資格問我為何拒絕核廢料因為那是我天生的權利那是我生存的地方這是多年 2000多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6199.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6226.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
2011年經濟部選址條例公選出來的合會的場所選址以後呢那時候說要50億做回饋金啊澎湖因為作為選委員自然保留區啊不被資格達仁鄉說要變成唯一村候選的場址但是要有兩個啊所以這個就一個個槓掉了2012年經濟部又公告達仁鄉跟金門烏丘地方反對沒有辦法進行下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6227.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6255.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那就開始喔 重頭戲來了 2012年台電傳出要在太魯閣國家公園去探勘4月27號 4月12號蕭美琴 現在副總統開記者會 掌握秀林鄉作為核廢料最終處置的探勘每次要探勘而已 蕭美琴都要說完之後 大家都反對高進 宿美 帶隊去 大家都反對台電說 我們自己研究而已啦 研究而已啦要研究看有沒有效 這樣沒有而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6258.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6271.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
2013年,民間反核大遊行,當時行政議員叫做江怡化,她說選址很困難,推動民間官方核廢料處置的協商平台,大家來協商啦,說大家來協商啦。一個協商出來之後,2014年,藍瑜。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6277.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6297.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
北海岸 航村團體跟相關的環境團體發表聯合聲明退出平台 不用跟你說了如果核廢料真的可以在技術上可以安安穩穩 毫無顧慮那麼何不讓台灣依據科學地質條件選出所有可能安全的場子不要再以低人口密度為選址的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6299.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6320.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
不然你說那裡安全用用電比例節電效率來作為選擇的一個依據然後呢來迫使大家來思考用電跟承擔核廢料的辛酸他說要創一個共同承擔的設計的一個制度所以我要跟兩位法律專家說的就是說823這個公投源自於對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6327.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6344.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
大家對科學的不信任大家對政府的制度的不信任大家對環境正義的一個要求然後對公民知情參與否決的一個要求就是說我們這個很可笑所以我要建議主委就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6351.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6367.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為這個河山如果重啟以後任何一座核電廠一重啟以後就開始生產核廢料沒地方去核廢料就一直放在那個地方高階的不要告訴我們的老百姓說我們有地方去我們連低階的到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6368.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6375.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
蘭嶼 十萬 兩百七十七趟河伊 四萬幾趟河長 五萬趟 還要六萬趟加加這樣屢屢刻刻有這麼多我們現在都沒有辦法處理然後我們讓高階的 有人說那沒關係啊 甘氏屬存層把它蓋下去就好了公園公園這麼傷心喔 為什麼要蓋大河山啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6396.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6424.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
潘朵拉的核子一打開以後我非常擔心接下來就是核一接下來就是核二大家願意承擔那沒關係但是我要求主委的就是說既然低階核廢料都要地方公投那生產高階又沒有辦法放到其他的地方去變相把高階永遠放在繼續運轉的核資源廠的所在地這樣不用公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6425.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6451.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
主委 我這樣說合理吧謝謝委員中選會辦理各項的公投包括地方性的公投由地方來辦理都必須要有法源的根據所以剛才委員所講的這個公投如果要辦的時候是不是在公投法裡面應該要有固定的規定這是第一點第二點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6454.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6476.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
核三的問題其實核能的問題是社會大家非常關心正反的意見都有因此會有所謂的公投程序要來進行我們進行這個公投程序就是要讓正反雙方都能夠充分的來表達他們的意見去爭取社會的認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6477.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6487.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以說我們這回8月23號的河山公投最後一場的電視意見說明會就在明天晚上7點我幫你做一個公告明天可以7點在華視的頻道我們歡迎所有的民眾大家能夠踴躍地來收看你算在幫我捧場就對了來 那個廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6501.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6529.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我本席剛談這一些我不曉得你有沒有所感就是說我們法律人常常在講說舉輕足以民眾低階核廢料要地方來公投要問過地方的同意那你生產高階核廢料難道你放的都不行了要來這邊製造高階什麼叫做高階就是高輻射嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6531.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6538.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
低階就是低輻射嘛 有毒的物質嘛你給人家說 那有的扁輪的 說到天花亂墜 說核微料沒有毒那是很空 你知道嗎 它不知道我們核微料的湯一湯五十五加侖 五十五加侖喔 不是用湯喔裡面還用水泥 又減到空氣喔 又不是空氣就好喔 又減到放下去 放在土底喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6556.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6572.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你看看蘭嶼放在那裡 那個石門地區那邊三邊都沙 一邊都海那當年要收 當年準備要海拋後來是因為倫敦公約禁止了 我們也不敢去海拋結果放到現在十萬幾桶 它不是放 它要放在地下 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6573.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6597.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
人要去賣 我去兩座人要去賣 你要請輻射醫現在在廣島北流 跟他們說何為了都沒有危險 騙不來講什麼小朋友所以 以法律人的看法我想就教你的意見就是說低階 需要地方的民眾來同意高階 尤其是生產的你說都不用地方同意可能嗎 合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6603.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6621.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
跟委員報告一下 委員對於法律的認知對舉重與民輕舉輕易重的內涵闡述得非常的清楚但是我在這邊不太適合表達我任何的意見但是對剛剛委員的說明我對委員的指教感到佩服有同感啦 明天再準時收看 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6632.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6656.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好 下一位我們請林倩琦委員發言好 謝謝昭偉我先請中選會主委跟全序部的部長李主委跟施部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6665.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6681.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
謝謝昭緯感謝昭緯今天設定這樣一個題目這樣子相關的議題我們先前也有一些討論今天當然是有幾個重點我就直接來進入這個重點我今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6682.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6703.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
整體大概聚焦三個方向第一個是在所謂的政務人員在政策宣講的時候是不是能夠遵守行政中立尤其是這個宣講的內容涉及到不太不詳實的數據還有不太正確的一個內容導致一些恐慌跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6705.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6716.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
有的時候是意圖有的時候是可能沒有注意影響了一些選罷的結果這個部分該如何究責第二個部分是中選會在選罷的電視說明會上如果碰到明顯違反選罷法的言論或者是有一點恐嚇的一個導向 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6725.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6750.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
是不是有一些及時處理跟通報的機制第三個部分是有關於公務資源濫用的問題是不是廉政署這邊有一個盤點跟防灘指引的處理這個部分最主要都是依據行政資源跟公權力依法公正的使用在這個界限內不要成為一個政治鬥爭或特權濫用的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6750.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6768.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以本席在這邊請教一下就是政務人員在選罷活動當中刻意或者是無意的造謠的救責在行政中立還有重大的政治動員當中有的時候好像會被刻意的被忽略 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6769.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6795.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那本席舉一個例子在今年的3月29號那麼內政部長在民進黨應該是一個叫做政策宣導的人民是投家這樣一個宣講當中那公開的呼籲要罷免在野黨的這個立委然後反覆的在講這個有關於租金補貼這跟我們預算有關租金補貼的預算因為被砍了所以10月11月就可能用完但是我們知道這整個預算其實是比較複雜那這樣講有點簡化到 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6798.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6813.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
似乎跟事情的本質差異太大但事實上應該中央的租金補貼是一個延續性的計畫總預算就算還沒有處理完也能夠依據先前的核定的額度來動之 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6815.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6841.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那這個部分其實跟實際上的一個影響似乎有一點很大的落差在這個政務官這樣講起來所以它其實並不是這麼直接的一個影響但是呢這種內容就有可能導致某一些結果產生那麼這樣一個可以透過客觀查證的一個數字落差那麼在政治宣講當中政策宣講當中呢有點被 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6842.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6869.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
包裝成為一種恐慌敘事的一個反覆敘說那結果又成為這個我們講直接講罷免好了的一個訴求的這個中心那這樣子的言論其實有大家聽起來是有點喪失了這個行政中立那也不太平衡所以我們就講到這個公職人員選舉罷免法104條所規範的散佈不實之事那足以影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6871.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6896.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
選罷的結果的範圍因此本席這邊來請教第一個是針對中選會對於政務人員在政治場合當中涉及具體的政策資訊的不實還有數據上的落差中選會認為這個還是屬於政策說明的範圍嗎第二個部分是這一類的爭議是不是有主動收 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6898.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6925.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
證跟通報檢調的一個機制還是只能等著被動的等待有人檢舉那第三個部分呢 是是不是認同政務官雖然其實剛才這個主委這邊有講到過啦就是您對政務官在公務人員行政中立法的這個適用的內容上我想聽聽您這個部分的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6926.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6939.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
剛才我們召委在詢答的時候其實也有提到先前參考了考試院的一些版本針對政務官在公務人員行政中立的這個部分是不是要再進一步的做一些討論這個我想聽聽中選會的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6944.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6963.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那我是不是先到這邊那待會再問一下全序部所以主委是不是可以我剛才舉的利是相對比較實質的但是我們講的是一個比較客觀中立還有整體性的一個概念那主委您這邊針對我剛才講的例子還有這樣一個概念上的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6964.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6979.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
好 謝謝委員的指教那有關於政務官其實包括所有的公務人員他們應該要維持行政中立尤其是在選舉罷免期間的行政中立是大家都非常的關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6980.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7005.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
對 那我這邊其實對於這個它產生的這樣一個情形那在選舉過程當中怎麼去處理如何規範這個擅見在各個法律不只是在公職人員選舉罷免法上面那權責機關也是各有不同所以大家共同來維護行政中立這樣一個核心的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7007.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7032.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
就選罷法的部分來講大概直接牽涉到的有兩個法條另外一個剛剛委員所提到的104條兩個法條裡面第一個就是選罷法的第50條這是規範中央跟地方的機關在選罷期間裡面不得從事宣傳等等這個如果是違反的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7033.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7049.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
有刑事責任的規定包括機關的首長 他的代理人等等這個在50條有明文的規定權責機關因為牽涉到刑事的責任就是由司法機關他們來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7052.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7080.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我這邊跟您請教一下所以如果是在結果還沒有出來之前就有這樣一個情形那你們是會主動收政然後來通報檢調還是要等著有人來提出被動的一個等待檢舉呢通常因為在選舉期間我們的選務本身就非常的忙碌那包括我等一下要講的就是選罷法第45條我們還有選務人員行政中立的這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7082.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7105.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
今天這個部分是比較針對政務官在應該是要做政策宣導結果就變成一種這種意識形態跟影響結果的這個內容我要跟委員報告的這個就是牽涉兩個部分一個是政治責任的部分這個我們管不到那至於是刑事責任有沒有牽涉到這個是屬於司法機關他們的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7106.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7120.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
在這個整個選舉的過程裡面可能我們比較沒有餘力那可以來關照這一部分但是該我們管的我們要管那就是45條選務人員必須要中立什麼行為不能做不能做這45條都有明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7122.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7138.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以應該是你們這邊比較能夠處理的是選務人員的這個部分我們主動應該要負起責任就像您剛才講的這個無餘力但是我這邊也是做個提醒因為我想近期的這樣一個氛圍其實大家常常聽到可能比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7140.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7152.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
越界的一些言論然後會引起社會的一些疑問跟恐慌至於104條的部分也是一樣是屬於司法機關的權責好的 謝謝全區部可以請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7154.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7177.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
公務人員的行政中立是由你們這邊來處理的但是目前政務人員沒有被完全歸納進去所以如果未來政務官在政治動員的場合裡面持續有這種錯誤的資訊或者是差異太大的數據那導致讓大部分的人會覺得有點混淆事實的政治操作那權序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7178.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7203.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
會不會研議一些明確的法制的這個草案將政務官可以納入裁罰或移送究責的監督範圍呢您的看法我跟委員報告我想任何一個政務官不管是中央或者地方包括鄉鎮市公所類似民選人員在選舉過程的一些言論那本來就不是行政中立法裡面的規範的一個事由 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7204.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7229.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
也許就像剛剛主委講的如果違反一些可能影響選舉一些活動自然就有一定的程序應該要去處理我想如果說一個政務人員或者是民選首長不管是他在選舉活動過程裡面有一些也許大家不是有人不認同的意見或者認為他真的數據有不正確我想應該是一個透過政治科者的過程來處理我認為會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7231.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7253.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好的 那聽起來好像你們都還蠻無力的但是我想這樣一個倒不是無力我想這基本上兩套兩套人的一個運作模式不一樣那剛剛昭偉也提到說如果 我建議大家如果真的是要就政務人員這個部分要去立法的話可能我會建議就是說算是一個不一樣的領域應該要大家要好好再去想想怎麼樣立法方式可能最務實 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7254.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7280.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好像先前考試院也有這樣一個草案的提出那中間一直都沒有在動作是不是有一些考量或者是你們考慮上有一些什麼這些考量其實是包括說到底政務人員的主管機關應不應該是考試院因為根據憲法考試院主管公務人員那看起來所以你們在這個過程當中那是不是應該是考試院那你們還有哪一些選項的可能呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7282.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7289.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我只能講考試院並沒有所有的政務人員都是在行政機關裡面擔任首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7290.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7313.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
並不是在考試院所屬的一個體系所以這也是為什麼當初憲法會考試院主管公務人員主要就是說因為公務人員方式比較跟政務人員不太一樣他不是高度政治性交給考試院來主管自己政務人員真的是高度政治性的一環你們在過程當中除了說可能不太適合由你們來主管的話那你們有什麼樣子的選項的討論呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7316.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7333.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這個跟我們未來如果還要再提相關的這個草案那有很大的關係所以我也很好奇說你們這麼長久的一段時間那討論起來是不是有其他的形象如果真的要立法立法政策過程裡面大家應該坐下來想想放在哪個地方來主管會比較適合啦那這麼長一段時間你們沒有討論到其他可能的主管機關的一個選項就對了我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7343.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7365.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
沒有特別針對這個問題好好再往下談好的 謝謝但是現在因為整個氛圍還有一些正在進行的事情本席在這邊可能再請教中選會三個問題就是當公辦電視說明會是不是有一些及時可以辨識或者是處置明顯不實言論的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7367.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7383.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
還是這個平台完全開放給任何的發言內容如果已經涉及違法的情形非常大的話你們也不能介入或者是無餘利益第二個部分是如果有一些監看或應對的機制判斷標準跟啟動的時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7385.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7409.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
是什麼那有沒有誰是可以來判定的然後第三個部分是那對於已經明顯違反選罷法104條的情況除了您剛才說這應該有檢調來處理那中選會是不是會主動通報檢調來啟動偵查而不是等外界來檢舉那事後會被動回應那這個部分是不是可以請教一下主委的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7411.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7425.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
謝謝委員我們現在正在進行公投的意見說明會另外在地方有一些罷免案件的電視說明會也在進行當中關於這些說明會都有我們辦法的一個規制 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7427.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7455.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那現場都會有主持人也會有監察人如果有違反我們相關規定的部分他們會做現場立即的處理最嚴重最嚴重就是麥克風關掉麥克風關掉等於是他麥克風關掉之後那個部分完全都不屬於正式的言論的內容但是如果他觸及了麥克風關掉之前他觸及的這個部分除了現場直接去做處理以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7458.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7474.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
您說的這個司法的這個層面你們會有一些主動的做法如果有違法的情況的話在事後我們會根據事證來做必要的處置比如說是不是有違反這個刑事的法令那這個有職務告發的問題不過到現在為止並不會並沒有發生過這樣子嚴重的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7481.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7505.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
可能就您的觀點就目前來講似乎不是那麼的嚴重其實還蠻順利的只是社會各界有的時候會有一些疑問所以我指出來的是說那怎麼樣就像您說消音是很及時的一個處理但是消音前已經有這樣子的疑慮的時候那你們事後做一個處理但我們最主要的一個意旨就是說那我們希望這樣能夠影響不實的言論影響選舉結果的這個衝擊能夠降到最低 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7511.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7532.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
希望中選會這邊也能夠更積極的來做處理至少導進一個社會的風氣讓大家基本上在公開場合要講的話可能要有一些思慮因為所有的代表人他可能都代表某一些能夠教育社會的一些言論所以我想這個部分可以再更積極一點的來處理我們都有現場突發狀況的演練但是到目前為止都沒有派上用場 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7539.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7564.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好的那我想今天最主要的一個重點就是說我們希望大家可以來表述不同的想法跟意見但是呢可能有人會故意或有些人是沒有意識到他的內容其實會導引整個方向太大那這樣子衝擊太大的話可能在尺度上還有分寸上我們就很難拿捏這個東西對整個實質選舉結果的這個影響那我們也希望中選會 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7569.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7592.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
跟公務人員管理的相關單位我們可以更積極更深入或者是更擴大一些範圍來做一些討論每經過一次的案例我們就可以來做一個整體的檢討讓這樣一個社會氛圍或者是選舉的結果能夠更契合一個社會公平正義的一個原則好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7597.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7612.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位我們請陳培宇委員發言好 謝謝主席 大家辛苦了今天有請人 先請人事長跟權敘部 謝謝麻煩權敘部 人事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7620.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7638.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好兩位早安我想要先就今天的專題跟兩位分享一個案例就發生在我辦公室我辦公室的訪客呢在7月6日之前他們是來討論事情的地方的陳情那他的包包上就是放上現在這個照片結果就被立法院中心大樓一樓的警衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7640.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7659.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
他在簽名的時候登記他的身份的時候呢這個警衛就請他把這個飄帶拿下來他說因為要遵守行政中立我想要請兩位幫大家解釋一下行政中立到底是誰要遵守的為什麼警衛的大樓中心大樓的警衛可以對我們的訪客做出這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7661.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7682.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
到底行政中立是誰要遵守行政中立根據行政中立法規範的主體對象是公務人員就算中興大樓的警衛他不是公務人員他是其他約聘也好但是他是屬於公務機關裡面聘請的人員所以是他要遵守行政中立對不對所以不是叫訪客遵守行政中立嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7683.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7695.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們的新新中立法主要是對象就是公務人員但是確實對機關本身的場域也是另外就是說在選舉期間就選舉期間裡面不適合在機關的機關辦公的場域裡面做這樣一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7701.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7717.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
可是他是訪客耶所以如果按照你這句話這句話我要再解釋因為立法院本身跟一般的行政機關真的是很不一樣立法院作為一個全民的這個民主政治的一個場域裡面應該這樣講它的空間應該會有所謂純辦公空間跟所謂這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7722.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7739.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
比較是屬於公共的空間所以如果是公共的空間基本上如果按照我們的一個理解因為我們的理解辦公場域是指純辦公的一個場域不過這個解釋權我想立法院應該我們最後都會尊重立法院的一個怎麼去解釋這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7740.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7755.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好 可是就我們的理解也按照您剛剛的回答行政中立應該是相關機構裡面的公務人員或者是約聘人員而不是對訪客來訪的訪客甚至是陳情的民眾所以我們當天確實有請立法院這邊做了處理也做了交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7756.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7772.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
不過我們當時調了我們也希望跟他們調錄影帶不過花了一些時間不過因為事情經過了我認為我們還是要就行政中立這件事情好好來探討那我們要來看一下目前在公務人員行政中立法第16條裡面如果公務人員違反所謂的行政中立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7773.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7794.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
他會有懲戒或者是懲處這都是有法律效果的對嗎那這步伐就像您剛說他是針對公務人員的部分他不涉及所謂政務人員可是如果反過來有政務人員要求我們的公務人員做出疑似行政不中立的事情那我們的公務人員要如何自救 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7795.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7811.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
他當然是可以拒絕如果長官不聽的話他可以向他上級機關的長官提出類似向他上級機關的長官求救我們有沒有相關的保護機制來協助公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7814.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7831.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所謂保護機制就是說這個吹哨機制在公務員內部的這個狀況或是像他長官檢舉的這個過程當中他要如何確保他的這個檢舉的狀態是讓他感到安全的是沒有疑慮的曾委員提的這個想法確實是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7832.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7860.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
可能我們可以再進一步思考一個目前的條文確實沒有特別談到這但也許在別的法律裡面是不是也有這樣的本來就有這個這個容許我回去跟同仁再了解一下沒錯 我們也是發現這個問題但絕對不會在質詢當中就解決不過沒關係我們等一下會跟你們討論我們希望後續有沒有機會在兩個月內跟我們相關報告來 我們來看下一張我剛剛答應主席我不會超時 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7861.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7882.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
目前在行政中立法第10條有寫到來看一下這個新的題目剛那個題目你說你待會去研究我們之後再來討論接下來我要講的是在公務人員的第10條行政中立法第10條寫到公務人員對於公職人員的選舉罷免公民投票不得利用職務上的權利機會或方法要求他人不行使投票權 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7883.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7899.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
會為一定之行使可是到了98年發布的行政中立法實行細則第7條裡面呢就排除了罷免的提案跟連署我們後來去看的立法說明立法說明當然有它的理由理由我就不再贅述了我寫在頭影片上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7900.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7915.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
可是從最近的很多罷免案的檢討當中我們看到有非常多行政上的干預跟爭議其實一直出現所以目前我們看到其實有韓式可是在目前的法規框架裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7916.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7930.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
卻等於讓公務人員會陷入什麼情況呢對於到底罷免的提案連署是不是適用行政中立法我覺得這個是不是也要後續再來討論委員 指教沒有錯現在這整部法律主體都在談選舉跟公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7932.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7958.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
原則上原來一開始就是純粹談全局後來因為有公投所以我們把公投放進去了我想因為實施了一個變化如果這一次有一些罷免或者罷免如果是一個未來或者過去有一些覺得需要也把它更細緻化的東西我想我們會願意這部分回去想想看因為整部法律裡面在第10條整部法律提到罷免就只有在第10條 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7959.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7974.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
對所以我想啦我們就是不要只有講政治我們還是回到法規範所以我想我們的要求非常簡單就是剛剛您說的兩個我們希望有機會兩個月內根據我剛剛提出這三個問題你們做出一些回應跟幫我們做出相關評估報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7976.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7981.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
時間會不會太趕就是我們的一些想法我沒有辦法到一個細部的東西那就再回復我們辦公室可以嗎再回你辦公室謝謝全序部這邊這邊全序部請休息謝謝我請人長人長我每次看到你都要跟你討論公務人員育兒友善的問題希望你每次都有考古題的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7994.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8009.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我這次幫你找到一個題目我覺得其實也是很多公務人員具體的感受目前我們在公務人員子女教育補助的部分國中小一學期給500塊其實這個是民國85年就存在的表格 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8011.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8032.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
沒關係 你很忙 我知道我們不可能一個一個回頭看但是我們現在發現這個可能性有沒有機會來做調整怎麼說我們來看一下教育部現在相關的高中免學費的政策或是大專檢免學費的政策你們人總都有非常友善的發函提醒公務人員要注意補助申請的進合 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8034.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8055.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
可是當舊的這個設計就是我剛說民國八十五年一直到現在新的政策那我知道你們有通寒來處理可是除了通寒之外有沒有檢討這個五百塊的機會或者是檢討其他相關政策然後讓公務人員真的覺得我在為國家賣命的時候國家真的也是友善我們在育兒政策上 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8057.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8070.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好 謝謝委員這個議題我覺得這也是我們應該要去努力的地方那我在這裡承諾委員我們回去會盡快去針對這個議題因為說這個500戸買了30噸的行情跟現有的落差是蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8080.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8090.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那我們除了針對國中小這個部分我們會整體再盤一下因為大專的部分我們已經有補助三萬五其他的部分 我們整體再來討論看看好 怎麼說 下一張其實我就是簡單跟人長 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8098.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8117.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
分享一下目前的教育所需要的各種可能性其實不是只有落在學校裡頭有非常多一般的爸爸媽媽對於教育的想像可能擴及到學校以外會產生非常非常多的費用就算在學校裡面光是我們的社團活動啦課後班啦這些都還屬於在校內的其實也都花很多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8121.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8126.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
像你說的 我們現在有高中和大專我們有什麼可能去想想有什麼可能的資源可以讓我們這些公務人員他們的年紀比較小的時候他們有感受到政府的善意 好不好所以最後一張就具體的建議拜託人長這邊你們回去討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8142.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8160.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
目前公務人員子女教育補助的設計數額有沒有合理然後跟目前我們教育部已經給的補助你們跟他們討論看看還有什麼設計的可能性跟教育部討論因為教育部這邊可能也會有相關經費需要支應還有就是目前教育的補助跟學校綁定的狀況我們怎麼樣讓現在的這些年輕世代的公務員爸爸媽媽真的覺得政府有在照顧我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8167.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8174.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
有考慮到當代的需求好不好就是我剛剛跟你講85年到現在那這個有機會在兩個月內提供相關評估報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8177.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8198.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我們會朝 至少有會議進度好不好好啦 我們會朝這個目標來因為喔 要再合調的單位對 要再多一點啦好 至少兩個月內要有第一次相關會議啦 好不好好啦 沒問題讓我們知道一下你們彼此對這件事情的見解至少要先有見解然後可能性然後之後再來推進度這樣好不好好 沒問題好 謝謝主席好 謝謝謝謝我們下一位請省發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8221.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8227.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
主席各位同仁我們今天的這個有關討論事項有關我們今天的這個會議事項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8231.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8257.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
第三項有關病案審查這個刑事訴訟法第七十一條跟一百七十五條條文的修正草案這個部分我想今天利用這個時間來這個進行一些了解跟討論因為這個我看剛才大家都比較沒有關注這個部分但是我認為這個部分可能牽涉未來牽涉會蠻大所以我現在是不是先請司法院我們請刑事 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8259.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8267.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
請這個刑事廳廳長麻煩廳長那請法務部也跟這個也跟次長跟這個我們的法務部也有關係了這個廳長好 次長好這個今天我們在我們的這個討論事項裡面有關於這個刑事訴訟法第71條跟175條的這個修正的這個病案審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8288.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8312.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
71條跟175條他大概就是有關於這個被告跟證人的這些這個傳票這個大概是增列第三項啦都增列第三項就是這個傳票如果有外籍配偶外籍人士外籍學生等等相關的這些外籍人士在這個傳票上面應加註該國文字或英文翻譯這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8317.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8332.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個看起來這個立法是利益良好不過我看了這個我們法務部跟我們司法院針對這一條條文的這個書面報告對這個修正都有相當大的保留意見那這個部分我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8335.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8361.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
因為我們現在目前的這個我們發放傳票不管是被告或者是這個證人目前這個傳票的簽發在偵查中都是由偵查中是由檢察長在這個審判中是由這個審判長或是受命法官來簽發所以跟這個我們司法院跟法務部都應該都未來如果說今天的修正如果說這樣子修正通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8362.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8376.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
可能會有相當大的未來會有一些可能自愛難行或者甚至會造成未來你因為拘捕前置的一些原則的違反讓未來整個審判訴訟過程會有一些問題這部分我先請我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8383.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8406.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
廷長就這個部分表示意見好不好是委員好有關這個部分的修正我們司法院採取比較保留態度的主要因為在法院組織法99條它本來就是有關司法文書本來就在以本國語言為主但是例外的時候說必要是可以登載附近方言或者是外國語文 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8407.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8434.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
如果當 這個是一個整體性的就是說包括行政訴訟 文明事務訴訟或者是其他行政 多多少少的規定法院組織法裡面的規定 對包括使用的語言97條這個審判的時候應該使用國語那在這個99條有訴訟文書的文字這個都有規定那以在現行的司法實務上有關於證人或是被告的傳票如果他涉及到外國 外籍人士不管他是配偶或是來台工作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8436.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8452.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
工作者 所謂我們一般稱的外籍勞工或者是外籍配偶或者是來台就學的學生 外籍人士我們他有這個需求我們會給他相應的包括通知書也會有相應的一些外國語文的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8453.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8467.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
現在簡單講現在我們的一些司法文書事實上已經有提供相當多的外國語言的譯本現在是一種比較任意性的我們能力做得到的像我們現在常用的印尼文 越南文 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8468.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8497.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
英文 我看英文日文最多啦英日韓文這邊都有 送答書這些刑事被告權益輸送這個權利告知書是這些相關都是英文日文那有關這個這個其他的韓文越南文印尼文泰文馬來文等等在大概性侵害犯罪的這些陪同人詢問通知書有啦齁那這個裁判裁判書的救濟程序交試條款也有啦齁那但是這個這個是目前的這些司法文書是有這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8498.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8523.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
的相關提供相關的這個譯本的這樣子的做法這樣做法但是入法你入在這個這個刑事訴訟法裡面入法讓傳票必須具備這個這個外國語譯文的這樣子的要件跟我們現在這樣的提供司法司法其他司法文書外國語譯本的這種服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8524.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8540.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這個我想是兩回事吧這個強度是不一樣不只是強度差很多他就會影響到程序上會不會有瑕疵的問題你未來這個就是拘捕前置原則你未來你這個之前的合法性尤其是這個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8542.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8567.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
其實我們在偵查中我們檢察官簽發這個G票這個應該會遇到最大的狀況因為這個事實上在這個很多偵查甚至審判初期這些被告或是證人的國籍並不一定你在這個你相關的這個卷內的資料不一定能夠掌握那麼清楚他去了你以為越南文你準備了越南文的船票就去他說他是泰國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8569.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8584.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那這個船票就有瑕疵了這個有瑕疵之後後面你拘提不到你所造成的這些後面的這些法律程序通通拘捕的程序通通會發生效力的問題對不對那這個我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8589.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8607.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
現在有委員提案這個修法當然是利益良善針對我國目前這個外籍配偶新住民的人數的增加它是利益良善但是這個實務我們重視的是今天如果這樣我們就這樣委員會就這樣子修法通過我認為是在實務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8609.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8633.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
造成實務的衝擊 我認為也很不好但是問題是實務上是不是有大量的外籍人士他們因為語言障礙導致外籍被告他因為對於國語不熟悉導致他訴訟權益受損而申請救濟目前有沒有統計 我們司法院有沒有統計法務部有沒有統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8634.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8647.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
目前是沒有這樣的統計但是我們有特約司法同意的制度我知道我們同意制度現在還需要努力但是已經很努力了我知道但是我現在就講說我們應該要統計一下因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8649.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8675.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
不按我們台灣的語言所的造成他訴訟權益受損來申請救濟這樣子的我認為應該要做個統計這是第一點第二點我們司法院跟法務部我們就應該就這個如果說這條修法通過之後他對於這個審理的效力還有他每年會增加的這些人力時間經費的成本有沒有做預估 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8677.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8704.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
目前沒有去做預估現在我們都是任意性的去配合提供但是如果今天修法通過了你們就要就要下去包括人力包括每簽發一張這個船票的時間還有他所需的成本這些我覺得都應該下去估算這個你才能夠在委員會裡面說服大家說這個如果說今天就這樣子通過可能會在執行上面會有真的很大的自愛難行的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8705.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8708.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這部分我希望說你們能夠做這個估算那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8712.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8735.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這個有關通譯的部分這個也是我們專業通譯的這個人力配置我們如果未來今天這個修法如果照這樣通過的話可能未來在這個我們的這個包括法院跟地檢署的行政成本這增加都會造成一些執行的困難所以我在這裡也是就利用這個機緣因為我看今天的大家的討論都是政治性的討論大家沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8736.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8752.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
沒有專注到今天可能同步要進行這個修法我希望說今天這個修法本委員會希望所有同仁大家能夠在這個修法上面能夠再審慎一點參考我們司法院跟法務部執法機關的意見接下來還有一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8758.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8778.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
今天也利用這難得的機會我們行事廳廳長來目前有關這個上市其實今年在3月的時候我就已經有做過質詢有關於我們司法聯盟鏈數位證據的真實性跟它的保存的問題這個問題我們從 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8783.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8802.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
2021年開始我們啟動所謂五大司法機關的司法聯盟鏈包括司法院法務部、台高檢、調查局跟警政署這五大司法機關成立的司法聯盟鏈在2024年我們啟動了一個叫做司法聯盟鏈共同驗證平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8804.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8817.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那這個也就是說我們希望說透過這個驗證平台讓這個司法警察機關在第一線查扣的時候能夠同時上鏈上鏈之後這個確保這些數位證據因為數位證據的修改篡改它的痕跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8818.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8820.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
很難去判定整個證據有沒有被篡改有沒有被變造這些數位證據從第一線開始一直到最後審判終結的統一性的確保所以我們來做這個驗證平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8843.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8857.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個實務上也事實上也常常發生現在也一直在發生因為這個第一線的司法警察機關他在處理這個數位證據的過程的交接過程裡面他沒有遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8860.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8874.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這個相關的這些鑑識的規範導致未來在審判過程中幾乎被害人的抗辯很多都是在抗辯這一點這個狀況是現在我們雖然已經做成所謂共同驗證平台但現在這個有一個很大的這個問題那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8878.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8888.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
事實上這個司法檢查機關在這個鑑識過程中他取得這個數位證據他沒有按照行政機關所定的鑑識規範完整記錄的這些交接的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8889.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8911.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這些他沒有遵守我們這個最高法院有做一個明確的一個表示就認為說這個刑事偵查中的這個偵查機關內部規則對外不具對外的法律效力所以這個即使他沒有按照這個數位證據保全的作業程序的這些規則相關的這些監視規則沒有即使沒有按照這個規則不影響他的證據能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8914.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8938.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這是我們最高法院所做的一個裁定一個表示那這樣子事實上大部分的學說也是支持也支持說確實在這個過程中他不應該對外具有法律效力但是他就造成了一個負面的效果就是這些司法警察機關他就便宜行事既然他不影響證據能力所以他在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8943.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8951.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這個過程他就省事省力 執意操作就不按照不按照這個相關的監視程序來走這樣子的問題我們有什麼樣的目前有什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8957.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8976.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
能夠讓他兼具平衡 是不是市長來 跟委員報告事實上是自從這個113年4月這個司法聯盟面正式平台正式成立之後本部跟相關的司法警察機關事實上都不斷的在宣導跟推廣那當然這個我想這個法院的見解應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8977.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9001.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
不是說他不影響 而是不當然影響也就是說證據統一性仍然會是在個案中 法院審判的時候會去斟酌審證的內容所以說在偵查的階段我們為了避免會來舉證的時候造成這樣的問題所以我們在內部是非常努力的在推廣相關的做法 建立SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9001.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9019.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
希望我們所有的現在實際上的整個審判過程事實上很多被告幾乎就是用這個在抗辯因為我們才剛剛這個啟用這個時間上還短我相信未來應該會逐步來改善那是不是有沒有考慮我們把這個整個數位證據的取得規定我們就明文入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9020.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9046.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我想這個部分因為每個個案可能還是會有他的不一樣的情形這個這樣子 時間到 請司法院跟法務部我們針對這個有關數位證據的修法評估做一個書面報告給我好不好是不是能夠修法我們來說明好 謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請羅志強委員發言待會在羅志強委員詢答完畢後休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9056.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9064.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
主席有請考試院秘書長中選會主委以及法務部次長主委法務部次長我想請教一下我們的李基隆主委7月26號的罷免投票你知道蔡英文總統在哪裡投票嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9087.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9112.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我告訴你 大安區的建安國小我沒有特別注意大安區建安國小那為什麼蔡英文總統可以在大安區投票就是她的戶籍在那個地方符合要求她是大安區的選民嘛 對不對有投票權嘛所以就在大安區投票主委你知道大安區有一類的人他就算是大安區的選民7月26號他沒有辦法投票你知道是哪一類人嗎你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9115.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9138.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
你如果硬說分類的話那可能有一些特殊的工作他們在投票日是沒有辦法來 我想請教我們考試院這個問題你應該要會回答在7月26號有一個特殊的一類的人跟你們考試院有關的他那天沒有辦法投票 是誰當天的參加國考的考生答對 什麼國考 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9141.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9170.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那一天應該護理師社工室專業技師的考試 專業證照的考試護理師考試 沒錯吧我想請問 來 請教那個主委我在大安區敗票的時候啦我遇到一個考生的母親她家有兩個有投票權的考生那天都得去參加護理師考試沒有辦法去投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9172.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9192.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
她覺得沒有辦法接受她覺得沒有辦法接受為什麼她的兩個小孩不能去投票她沒有投票權她說她孩子也不能接受為什麼挑戰那一天要來舉辦罷免的投票我想請教一下我們的主委憲法第17條的規定是什麼人民有選舉罷免創自父爵之權非常好來 我想請教我們的祕書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9204.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9223.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
請問把罷免投票日放在7月26號護理師國考的那一天有沒有侵犯這些考生憲法第17條的罷免之權他的基本權利有沒有侵犯這個我不是秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9224.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9254.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
你是考試院考生的權益是靠你照顧啊對對對所以我們會很堅持就是說第一個我們因為國考我只回頭問你有沒有侵犯他的罷免權我們國考日期都是先訂的嘛所以我們在這過程中也有跟中研會有反映說哪些時候我們有國考非常好我們必須要捍衛他們的這個應考市府公職權你要捍衛他應考市府公職權你要捍衛考生的國家上的權利啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9255.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9282.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
考生的權利也要捍衛啊民主黨我對你的表現不滿意我只問你一句話那一天排在那一天有沒有侵犯護理師考生的應考他的所謂的罷免權憲法上的罷免權有沒有侵犯實務上如果他必須參加國考的話他就沒有辦法去投當然啊那你政府排那一天他就得難道他放棄前程去投罷免嗎你造成他選擇困難嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9284.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9312.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
你答不出來這有侵犯他罷免權之前嗎沒有嗎有沒有侵犯到他的罷免權有沒有對嘛就跟大家講有侵犯嘛就這麼簡單嘛我問法務部次長來 我們政府的法律守門人當我們國家把罷免投票定在7月26號護理師有辦法去投票嗎除非他放棄護理師的考試啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9312.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9334.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我想他並沒有因此喪失罷免投票的資格天啊 他當然沒有喪失罷免投票的資格他沒有辦法行使罷免權啦那是事實問題事實問題啊 謝謝啊我告訴你 學學我們秘書長法務部次長講出這種話來我也跟你講 你不及格啦來 請教我們中選會主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9338.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9363.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
有沒有侵犯到他的罷免權利造成他沒有辦法去投罷免票這個問題我看花一點時間跟大家做解釋報告第一個就是說通常我們在明年要舉辦的不管是國考或者是選務我們在前一年會有協調會盡量大家避開不要去互相干擾影響這個是我們行之有年 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9364.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9385.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好啦 我現在要講什麼啦前面你跟考試院協調完後面就不用理考試院的意思啦第二點就是說今年的這個罷免案罷免案的投票日期法律有明文的規定是在罷免案宣告成立之後20到60天之內我等你講這句話來 我等你講這句話第三個來 再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9391.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9402.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那這個20到60天剛好落在什麼地方呢就是在今年的7月11到8月19我等你講這句話7月11到8月19一共有六個週末來 繼續前兩個週末時間太緊迫了我們辦選務來不及這是第一個考量第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9419.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9445.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
後面最後的兩個週末因為跟823又太靠近了怕重疊 怕互相干擾所以去頭去尾剛才說中這個兩個禮拜了只有剩下中間那這兩個禮拜這是什麼爛理由啊你去解釋給這個家長聽啦什麼叫做最後兩個禮拜太近所以你決定犧牲護理師的憲法上的罷免權 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9446.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9465.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
但是我們不辦這個20到60天之內不辦也是違法的那對於我告訴你 來 沒關係來 停我告訴你8月3號就沒有國考來 祕書長8月3號有沒有國考也是一樣週六 週日有沒有國考有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9466.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9485.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
沒有嘛8月3號有沒有在那40天範圍之內有沒有8月3號是禮拜天啦對這跟一般人民投票的這個好來來來沒關係我都知道你要講什麼藉口啦我想請問謝國良報免案是2024年10月13號沒錯吧禮拜天 禮拜幾主委不會不知道吧你們訂的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9495.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9499.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
禮拜天啦林昶佐罷免案2022年1月9號禮拜幾禮拜天啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9505.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9526.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
立委的第十屆的第三選區立委補選2023年1月8號禮拜天然後十屆的立委補選台中第二選立委補選然後包括我們第九屆立法委員第二選區的補選台中市第五選區立委的補選都是禮拜天中選會主委我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9532.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9560.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
今天你明明可以不侵犯護理師考試護理生考生的權益你卻執意要挑戰那一天來 我想請問一下我們的秘書長中選會選那一天有跟你們商量過有諮詢你的意見嗎有沒有我知道過程當中考選部有跟中選會有意見交換他的意見是贊成還是反對考選部有把我們的考試時程提供他贊成還反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9561.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9588.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我再問你一遍我覺得對考試院有既往甚深考生的權益是你們應該掛在心中的一塊肉我的理解因為這是考選部去處理的但是我的理解應該是就是希望能夠盡可能錯開就反對你們考試院就是要站在考生的權益著想你們已經表達說不希望放在那一天中選會的意見是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9590.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9609.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
還是要放在那一天是不是一個中選會光這件事情就去侵犯護理師考生的憲法權利眼睛到底有沒有憲法來沒關係我告訴你我想請問我們的秘書長請問蔡英文總統的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9615.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9638.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
罷免投票權跟護理師考生的罷免投票權誰比較貴重誰比較貴重每個人的權利都一樣當然是啊我在那天羅志強也可以投罷免票啊對不對蔡英文也可以投罷免票啊但是就是誰沒辦法投罷免票就護理師沒辦法投罷免票的考生 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9644.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9666.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
護理師考生那天有多少考生 多少考生應該有一萬多個對 一萬多人 當然不是全部都在罷免區不是全部都在罷免區但是有24個選區在同時進行罷免所以有非常多的考生 至少上千名 幾千名有至少有 沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9668.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9697.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這幾千名的考生的投票權都不重要我今天是來為我們護理師今天討一個公道啦護理師考生討一個公道啦來 最後我告訴你請問秘書長 你知道7月26日這一天要作為罷免投票日最早是誰講的我不知道來 中選會主委最早說7月26號要罷免投票日我們中華民國裡面有一個人最早預言那一天是罷免投票日是誰是哪一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9698.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9723.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這個沒有所謂的預言沒有所謂的預言我講的是事實問題你剛剛講事實問題我剛剛講就是七月十一到八月十一我請法務部次長嘗試題沒有知識也要有嘗試中華民國第一位預言七月二十六號就罷免投票日是哪一位這個我不知道你不知道你們不敢講不是不知道因為新聞很大王毅川都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9725.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9751.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
就是柯建民啦 我們立法院黨團的總召 鍾嘉斌也一定知道你們的嘗試不如這兩位委員就是柯建民明明有8月3號 不是沒有國考的日子你中選會主委為什麼選7月26號 我告訴你啦柯建民總召都講了 你可以打他的臉 你不敢嘛我找不出第二個理由啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9753.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9779.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那為什麼今天中選會主委今天這麼厲害我一直告訴你啊我是被罷免人啊我們會不會研究一下罷免的投票日你知道我們所有在議黨立委共同認為最可能罷免投票日是幾號你知道嗎就是8月3號因為8月3號是有道理因為沒有國考我們萬萬沒有想到你們會選一個7月26號去踐踏護理師考生 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9782.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9801.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這就是為什麼今天我也要特別講我們中選會我跟你講李靖永主委不只這一樁啦條條樁樁你今天有沒有把人民放在心上有沒有把憲法放在心上為什麼今天你只因為柯建民就這樣那柯建民是什麼他是比護理師的考生更大嗎他的話是聖旨嗎主委你要不要跟我們護理師考生道個歉說聲抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9812.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9829.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我想這個考試日期的決定有各種考量我剛剛已經報告過了最終就是我們的選委會我們委員會所做的一個決定今天我在這邊質詢主委我是因為有家長大安區的家長跟我反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9830.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9845.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
他覺得你欠他一個道歉對於任何個人都沒有辦法他可能可以去預測但是他沒有辦法他可以預測來 秘書長秘書長過來秘書長請你上來他竟然可以說這護理師考試可以預測 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9850.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9878.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
想要請問我先沒問你喔我問完你再回答我不是說考生去預測不是那誰預測是相關的人相關的人他預測神準你就做了跟這個事件有相關的人他自己會去算大概是落在什麼時候我告訴你你管誰能預測考生就預測不到你今天會侵犯他的罷免權我要表達的就是說這個日期的決定跟任何人沒有關係這是委員會的決定第二個委員很開心的我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9879.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9898.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我也很關心的因為這個日期決定而使得有些人他沒有辦法來參加考試對這一點來講我們也覺得非常的遺憾非常遺憾連鄭重道歉四個字說不出來因為這個罷免案的成立日期跟投票日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9899.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9926.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
今天是因為中選會妨礙了今天護理師國考生的罷免權你選擇的日子明明有8月3號可以選你不選你選7月26號他們沒有辦法他就在你各種各種考量之下成為犧牲品你這邊告訴人跟我講說你只是遺憾你不需要道歉連考試院都跟你講拜託你啦考選部拜託你不要那一天啦你一意孤行啊中選會 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9928.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9941.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
你要不要道個歉啊起碼吧考生值得你的道歉吧起碼吧憲法第17條的權利起碼吧你要不要道個歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9943.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9966.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我想大家先理解我們中選會辦理這個選務決定這個時間有我們的不得已的考量在這種情況之下不得已啊 哪門子的不得已啊你到現在為止沒有跟我講8月3號什麼叫不得已的理由就是瞎掰出來一堆奇奇怪怪的東西然後又不敢承認是柯建民叫你做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9967.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9975.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
就說是柯建平預測歸柯建平預測我當然知道你這樣去講啊這個絕對不是這一點我可以公開的講沒關係啦 直播大家看在眼裡面我最後做一個簡單的結論齊秘書長今天我還是肯定一下我們考試院因為我看到新聞考選部有反對你們有守住立場我今天公開肯定考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9996.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10023.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
但我今天公開譴責中選會一意孤行考試院都已經跟你講那種國考日也明明那40天內有其他不是國考日你中選會你就要那麼那麼的剛剛好不是因為柯建民的預測但是剛剛好跳到柯建民預測裡面去那時候全國討論都不是7月26號唯一講出7月26號日期就是柯建民 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10025.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10054.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
你現在跟我講跟柯建民無關誰信啊即便到今天這個地步就有幾千名考生因此沒有辦法行使罷免權就你李靖勇一個人造成的嘛你以為只有這件事情而已我從來沒有看過投票的時候中學會主委跟大家講不可以呼籲踴躍投票中華民國選舉時代第一位站出來叫大家不要踴躍投票就是不可以宣傳踴躍投票就是你李靖勇 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10056.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10069.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我佩服你到五體投地我今天也告訴你今天大罷免大烙賽25比0裡面有一個有一份就是你今天你已經有烙的賽啦謝謝謝謝 那請回那我們現在休息五分鐘因為我們之前有先宣告啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10086.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10087.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10485.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10489.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好 謝謝那我們繼續開會下一位我們請麥玉珍委員發言主席好有請中選會主委麻煩中選會主委委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10515.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10534.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
主委好想要請教主委一下我們在7月罷免案國民黨函告急你一開始說這樣的話就會認定說它是就是不行後來你就改口說沒有沒說不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10535.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10545.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
所以因為你是我們中選會最高的主管你說出來的都是應該是行政命令不能這麼說但是我們平民百姓 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10548.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10575.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
當這樣子的就是公投跟罷免依據什麼標準來去喊口號去說話才不會觸法呢所以要請教你因為你是決定者讓我們要在每一個地方要來去喊口號或者是要說話的時候怎麼樣才不會觸法所以但是呢在2018年你自己在選舉也高喊 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10577.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10592.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
選情危險那麼那個時候就說沒有這樣個案的認定這個標準是到底在哪裡所以你覺得如何比較處理比較好因為你在做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10594.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10611.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
謝謝委員給我這個機會其實當天的一個對答實在是有一點失焦有一點失焦是你對打還是國民黨在喊口號對打委員跟我在當場的這個對答彼此有一點失焦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10612.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10629.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那後來媒體報導之後大家把它連結在一起變成我說告急是不可以的那這個當然我當場沒有描述得很清楚這我要自己負責任我不能怪別人但是在事後我已經把這個事情說明得很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10630.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10657.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我當初的回答的意思是說你即使是用告急或者是什麼方式都不能夠夾帶類似民調之類的東西我的意思是這個樣子但是我沒有講得很清楚這中間有一個段落因此大家沒有辦法將前面的問話跟後面的回答把它區隔反而是把它連結在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10658.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10683.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這連結在一起就變成我說不可以告急那這一點我利用這個機會再一次的向大家來做個說明好 謝謝我們主委所以今天就是我要問你這個問題就讓你跟民眾有機會再解釋一次是 告急這個在各種選舉裡面到最後大家這樣說救命其實這很平常的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10684.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10713.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
很臨場的事情所以說因為那時候你說情急所以我們希望你今天就是要講清楚因為我們中選會對政治口號的執法標準是什麼現在大家也不知道因為這個說可以那個不說不可以但是為什麼過去我們民進黨喊口號也不用查很多都沒有在查所以大家就會很多人現在都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10714.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10740.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
講一句話跟不出法講哪一句話是可以所以我們希望我們的中選會就是要有中立中立的標準來去喊口號或者是說要去喊口號的時候如果應該是講這些不行我們就要去查不分哪一個黨我們希望我們的中選會就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10741.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10768.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
要有標準的一個做法我們現在要求你就是要有一個標準的做法所以在我們8月23日我們河山公投大罷免的時候同一天執行中選會的角色應該是中立提供正反雙方的資訊但是要確保就是選民獲得的完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10769.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10791.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
但是平衡的信息然而呢我們卻看到的很多應該要保持中立的行政官員跑去站台參加就是宣傳的活動這種行政不但破壞的行政中立好我們下一頁你按下一頁所以呢更 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10793.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10820.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
更可能讓行政的資源人為特定的立場就是助選的工具所以我們要請教一下我們中選會為什麼沒有立即停止 制止就是要如何建立這樣子的機制防止就是行政的機關濫用資源 介入公投所以我們想要請教一下我們的中選會 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10821.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10844.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
第一點就是有關於公投那中選會作為一個主辦的機關我們是秉持中立的立場來辦理相關的選務至於正反雙方各有主張我們認為正反雙方的這個主張都應該要透過適當的管道來讓選民他們能夠了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10844.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10873.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
以便於做一個理性的決定所以因此我們辦了五場的電視的意見發表會最後一場也是在明天晚上的七點鐘在華視的頻道播出我們一樣在呼籲民眾能夠踴躍的來收看除此之外我們還利用很多多元的管道包括電視 網路包括廣播包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10874.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10903.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我們都知道每個人都有去看但是我們要問的就是說我們的行政官員政務官去參加就是一個宣傳的活動所以說我們覺得這樣子是立場不中立去宣傳的活動去參加的就是靠邊站這樣的行政官員就是行政院長內政部長都是大罷免或者是我們公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10904.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10928.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
他是行政官員 所以說他這樣子的立場所以你覺得這樣子的做法是有中立嗎這樣是靠邊站 這樣可以嗎這個部分我們要怎麼去定所以就是跑各個地方在做站台的動作他不是立委 他現在是政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10929.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10955.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以我们要怎么样去保持这样子的选举的中立我们想要的知道说你怎么样去制止或者定立的是这样子的规定跟委员报告那这一部分的问题并不属于中选会的全责但是你有在网路在别人在问你的说你说行政官员是当事人对不对行政是当事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10956.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10978.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
你回這樣子啊這個是在這個公投案公投案中有正方有反方嘛有正方有反方對啊你去辦公就是辯論的辯論會剛才你講的很多場了嘛但是他跑去就是民進黨辦的場來去站台啊這個我們管不到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10978.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11006.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
對啊但是怎麼什麼管不到但是你們行政人員你還回說他是行政官員是當事人他是選舉的當事人嗎還是他是民進黨的當事人有沒有違反行政中立這個要由權責機關來做認定來做處理如果你說這樣的話像剛才你看這些這樣子的話在這樣的審查的時候你們要不要辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11007.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11029.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
什麼審查對你審查這些都亂講的話跟我們的公投的意義的精神都不對啊你要不要去查這個言論對不對這是有你之前有去告所以我們在公投宣導上我們8月5號葉教授明確指出就是河山 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11030.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11049.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
耐震能力的比台北101還強還要非常關鍵的科學的事實但我們看到的地方就是用這樣子的浪費11億或者風險留在後代這種片面的說法帶風向所以請我們的主委要交代說中選會在全國宣導的計畫如何明確的傳達 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11059.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11083.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
如果是這樣子的 像這樣的話我們要不要去查去告因為之前你們覺得說選不對都要去告啊如果是我們地方選委會有偏頗和反核的宣傳這樣子我們要如何去糾正啊中選會不能夠介入正反雙方的攻防啦共青不能被鎖住 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11084.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11093.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那如果是我們地方的選委會我們的選務人員有違反中立的規定的話那我們有責任要去查處對 所以你就是要去糾正不是說別人那是我們的選務人員的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11100.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11117.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
沒錯所以我們希望就是說我們中學人會在公投中應該就是說是資訊守門人對不對所以我們要如何確保就是核三就是科學的實際而是說別人再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11118.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11130.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
到處造謠 到處講的都不是事實所以我們中選會要去做 公聽會要去宣導這件事是事實的事我們要去查 要去糾正 不能讓說什麼跟我們公投的事實都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11137.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11151.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以我們希望你要介入來去查這些事情立法院交付的公投案並沒有公聽會的規定但是我們有辦電視的意見發表會所以說意見發表會是雙方不一樣的意見但是說我們是一個資訊的守門人所以我們一定要明確的我不能去判斷委員請你能夠諒解我們不能夠去判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11164.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11177.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
你們沒辦法去判斷所以說這些都是在網路亂傳的話就跟你們都沒有關係如果有違法的地方 權責機關自然他們會去查處但是這部分並不屬於中選會的權責範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11181.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11207.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以就是之前別人在之前你去告的也是因為是我們在選舉的時候有一些對選舉的稽查或者是講話還是什麼或者不明確所以你們就要去告他後來就不起訴但是現在公投跟大罷免變成大家都親切講你都沒管就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11209.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11227.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
說對沒對都沒管就對了就是違法我們公投的精神你也不管不是我剛剛跟委員報告過依照這個選罷法的規定大概有兩個部分一個50條一個45條50條牽涉到刑事責任這是由司法機關來管45條這是行政責任是規範我們的選務人員這部分中選會會管 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11235.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11260.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
好如果是這樣子的話我們就是希望說你就是有一些片面的因為你們本來就是不管是選舉你們都要去到處來去說宣導對不對公投都沒有去做宣導選發法也沒有去宣導對啊有宣導的話正確的如果是很多都不正確你們一定要介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11261.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11286.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
不能說鋪天蓋地了大家講都不正確就影響到我們的立法的精神我們的宣導是就選務的部分來做宣導我們的宣導不能夠去說要不要當然 我就選務是說公投的精神我們的公投的精神不能讓這些就是講偏薄或者是對我們的公投的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11289.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11315.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就整個就是亂套了這樣的話我們希望說中選會你也要去灌一下啦 不能說這樣就青菜這樣都是亂掉了我們依法來辦理好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員 賴氏寶委員蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員好 下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11328.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11333.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
主席好 這邊有請詮釋部施部長麻煩施部長是 施部長好因為我們今天討論的議題是有關於行政中立的議題那當然我們現在曉得就是就整個的公務人員行政中立法裡面其實並沒有包含去規範政務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11351.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11379.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個行政中立所以我想這也是目前在整個行政中立法制裡面其實最缺乏的一塊那麼我在這邊我想請教您因為昨天賴清德總統他曾經有公開喊話說讓我們一起要針對核三研議的公投投下不同意票請問您認為賴總統說這句話有沒有違反行政中立沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11380.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11401.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
沒有為什麼沒有我跟委員報告行政中立法裡面有規範的是選舉跟公投那它大部分規範是選舉那公投的部分我想這個部分總統的態度總統本來就不適用行政中立法他當然沒有違反行政中立法的問題那有沒有違反行政中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11402.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11425.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
他是代表他作為一個國家元首對一個公投的立場的宣示所以你認為作為一個國家元首作為一個總統他的一個政策態度他可以他到底是代表誰他是代表全中華民國代表這個總統府這個機關還是說這今天是代表他個人的立場我覺得是代表他是一個民選總統出來以後他的政策的一個態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11426.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11455.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
民選總統的政策對 那現在就是一個這其實是立法院所提出來的公投這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投所以呢 他今天他用總統的身分去講這樣子的話這沒有妨害公投嗎我想公投本來就是沒有妨害到大家就是有關於公投的這個這個公平合理以及這個這樣的一個投票投票行使嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11456.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11460.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我認為他是代表他作為一個總統所宣示他的一個政策的態度所以我想這部分大概就是我跟部長對大家的意見的不同總統昨天是在什麼場合說這句話的他在總統府說的嗎他在中常會說的樣子中常會是哪邊的中常會是民進黨的中常會對 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11481.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11508.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這就是我要講的如果說他今天他是作為一個民進黨的黨主席他去說這句話我沒有意見但是如果他今天作為一個總統他說這句話就顯不適當可是看起來我覺得從四副長您剛剛的回答裡面我認為說其實您對於一個國家機關一個重要的職務他利用他的職務的名氣對外發言他到底代表的是誰這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11510.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11532.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
观念我觉得您是跟我们一般的这个法界学界的这些想法是完全不同的总统他是一个国家的名气他利用这样子的一个职务他对外说的话他是代表全中华民国的人民您知道有现在民调有多少民众是支持河山演义的吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11534.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11557.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我不清楚您不清楚所以代表您平常都沒有在關心時事都不曉得我們的民間的這個民間意見的這個趨勢我告訴您已經好幾個不同的民調機構都顯示大概有六成到七成的民眾是支持核酸原液的所以今天總統他講這句話他到底代表是誰的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11559.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11578.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
是他個人的意見嗎還是民進黨的意見如果說他今天是代表總統的意見說實在話我認為這就是嚴重違反行政中立雖然說在我們現在的行政中立法裡面你們可以講說確實我們今天的公務員員行政中立法是不規範政務人員的但是你們自己也有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11579.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11604.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
公務人員的長官也應該要遵守公務人員的行政中立法你們自己的解釋都這麼說他不能夠指示部署做違反行政中立法的行為好 所以就代表說只可以長官 公務人員的長官部會首長 總統 院長他可以違反行政中立但他的下屬不可以違反行政中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11604.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11622.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我覺得這樣子的說法對於一般的社會大眾來講是無法接受的因為我跟妳報告我們的行政中立的這個名詞每個人見解不一樣我尊重妳的想法但是真正的行政中立根據我們行政中立講法是指參與政治性的積極性的參與政治活動所以剛剛總統說的那句話他們沒有屬於政治活動的範疇嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11628.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11651.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這是屬於他的政策的一個言論這是屬於政策還是屬於政治活動的言論我覺得這個部分的話真的是要搞清楚這也是為什麼大家現在對於所謂的行政中立的這個要把它法制化然後公務人員的行政中立法裡面其實它是對於公務人員要參與跟政治活動或是選舉公投相關的這個活動範圍的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11655.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11684.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
情況其實都做了非常嚴格的規範那但是呢反而是對於政務人員從總統以降的這些部會首長都是輕輕的放過輕輕的帶過他們嚴重違反行政中立也都認為沒有違反行政中立然後我們已經很多次的希望全序部能夠趕快要去立法不管你是修法或是制定專法你總是要有個態度啊但是你們看我在今年五月份的時候我有請全序部給我一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11685.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11708.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
給我一份資料就請你們去研析到底現在世界各國裡面對於這個政務人員的行政中立的相關的法制的規範情形如何就你們給我的這個各國制度比較的研析報告裡面第一個我寫的我看了基本上就是一個非常簡單也沒有什麼深入研究的報告然後第二個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11709.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11738.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
從你們的報告裡面你們到底是希望是比照未來是應該要像加拿大一致就政務人員的職務本身就屬於政治性質所以他就可以從事政黨活動也不管他是不是上下班時間還是說應該像美國日本德國英國一樣這個基本上採取比較嚴格的標準在非政務職務的身份底下或是非執行職務的時候才可以參與政黨活動以及表達政黨立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11740.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11741.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
就是你們現在局局部態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11742.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11769.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我想委員當初有要求我們就一些其他國家的一個現行的規範給委員會做一個報告我們也務實的去做了這個事情也把相關的規定我想細部的條文當然沒有放在上面我們整理也跟委員會做過報告那我們的態度是說政務人員基本上跟公務人員他的本質就是非常不一樣如果說你要對政務人員的某些行為做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11770.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11781.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那是属于立法跟行政权的一个立法政策的一个议题所以全区部不准备提案修法因为根据宪法全区部不应该管政务人员 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11782.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11804.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
所以你認為說從縣級的角度來講這個政務人員的相關法制不是屬於你們全學部考試院的權責那所以政務人員的退伏條例是誰定的我想如果委員可以多了解政務人員當初立法的一個背景一開始考試院是不樂意的我先要講嘛 政務人員的退休輔學條例的主管機關是哪個機關現在是考試院沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11805.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11827.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
是那所以既然你們都已經規定了都已經承擔了政務人員的退休撫恤條例作為他的主管機關然後你們也提案那為什麼針對政務人員中立法你們又撇得一乾二淨說這不是我的責任我想你們這樣的講法大家能夠接受嗎社會大眾能夠接受我覺得這是一個問題我跟委員報告基本還是回到憲法最上位的觀點我想憲法明擺講 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11829.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11842.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
考試院主管公務人員政務人員是高度政治性不是只有中央政府有各級政府都有政務人員所以這是一個非常複雜的一個議題適不適合由考試院來做主管但是就實務上來講就現實的上面來講我們現在已經從憲法的解釋來講而且實務做法來說你們也已經承擔了去制定政務人員府去條例的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11850.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11872.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
如果剛委員報告過說那個從立法的背景如果早期的立法背景去了解的話現在的背景並沒有改變太多好 這個議題我不再跟您爭執了因為我想這個很重要就是這個全學部考試院如果怠惰不準備提案我們立法委員我們會主動的提案好 那這邊那就先謝謝您 師傅長那我接下來要請教任總這個請任市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11879.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11885.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
委員好是 任市長您好這個我直接了當的問請問2026年軍公教會條新嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11888.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11917.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我跟委員報告一下我們這個禮拜一有找公教協會的同仁來開會那在會議上他們都有表達他的期待然後我們最近會再開公教人員審議委員會然後開完會以後我們會盡快把結論送到行政院所以你們現在初步的方向是什麼8月21號的院會之前你們就會抵定嗎目前朝這個方向努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11917.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11945.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那春毅是乐观还是这个我没办法答复因为这个节定前会在行政院这里我们只是一个专业幕僚会把大家的意见中正所以这是你们专业幕僚你们应该就要提出专业的意见从现在零年的这个物价通膨各方面来看是不是军工教目前的待遇的状况都还是属于中下偏低了也就是说跟其他的这个产业界里面的这个薪资相比 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11946.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11963.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們是不是還是我想我們會從幾個過面剛才我也提了CPI是其中一個還有經濟成長力的問題還有GDP的問題還有民間薪資的問題還有國家財政會從這基本上從這五大過面裡面我們會中整 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11964.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11974.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
一個參考的數據提供反正總之就是人事長你現在不敢把你們人事總處的意見清楚的表達出來會議還沒有開我們怎麼表達但是你明天已經有一個專業的意見了沒有 我們還要再開一次委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11982.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12009.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 OK 總之我就期待期待會有一個好的消息那麼接下來我要問的就是說我其實在今年大概三四月的時候我其實還是四五月我就已經請教過任市長你們到底對於軍公教待遇審議法制化的作業你們進行到什麼程度我還記得您那時候說你們任總已經提出了草案送行政院行政院七月底就會公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12011.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12030.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
結果到現在都已經八月中了我跟委員報告我們兩個影子都沒看到整個法制化的條文總共有八條然後行政院所有的程序都走了那現在等於就是在等待把這個案子排到行政院院會當行政院院會通過以後會送大院審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12031.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12050.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那明明這個就是大家很關心而且這也是立法院這好幾個委員包含我在內我們都希望說能夠盡速的看到行政院的這個法案可是你們一直拖一直拖就算是你人是總處這裡算是有在合乎的期間之內提案那為什麼行政院一直拖拖拉拉 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12051.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12069.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
都沒有要排定審案行政院有它綜合的考量因為每一個禮拜開了宴會要審查的法案事實上非常多尤其最近又加入所謂的台美的關稅相關的議題所以我想它會有一套機制去排序這個排議程也不是人事長您的全責但是我這邊只是要講就是有關於軍公教 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12078.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12102.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
待遇審議的法制化這也是我們一直都很重視的對不對希望你們提案你們也不提那你們是不是應該要盡數在你們人事總之至少公告先預告你們的草案內容是什麼有預告過了後來的修正版本是不是可以請你們今天會後提供一份你們的送到行政院的公告草案給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12104.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12129.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我这里可以答应委员我们会再跟行政院拜托看看尽快是怎么样是连我们立法委员们都不可以知道你们到底提了什么内容吗我们那个资料会送给委员这也是个秘密的资讯没有这个公开的所以我这个本席要求今天会后你们在明天就可以把你们送到行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12130.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12156.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
條文 你說只有八條嘛送一份給本席或是這個司委會的委員們做參考對這段話我們現在不少的一直等待下去這是當時我們對你們的要求你們沒有做到嘛那另外針對於這個政務人員奉集法治化的問題這也是一個目前在法治上面的一個空白的一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12158.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12162.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我們現在政務人員的諷解是規定在哪裡我們有相關專法嗎就是來 你來回答我們現在對於總統副總統有一個專法但是政務人員現在沒有一個專法好 那所以是規定在哪裡呢所以我們現在政務人員的諷解是怎麼給是依照什麼樣子的規定去 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12188.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12216.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
合給他是根據那個行政院有一套已經實施很久內部的一個就是有一個複雜的一個內部的一個規定然後做每年在做年度調薪的時候就用那個方式來做有一個點數所以看起來就是不管是部長或是人事長都搞不清楚現在政務人員的縫緊是規定在哪裡是依照什麼樣子的辦法或是這個法令去合給 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12218.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12242.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這是規定在全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點的第三項裡面其中有個政務人員給予是照附表一所定數額之給好 我要先講就是說這個也是名不正言不順你政務人員是跟軍公教人員就是不一樣啊他的退休撫恤你們都有定專法那麼為什麼政務人員的奉集法你們卻不提 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12244.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12271.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這不應該是要把它提出來嗎中立法也說是軍公教人員跟政務人員不一樣也不能夠適用但是公務員服務法裡面卻又涵蓋了政務人員這個整個法制的體系是錯亂的我本席認為 權需部跟人總在這個地方你們都失職這不應該把它法制化弄清楚嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12276.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12288.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以政務人員的薪水到現在為止就是用一個要點在規範要調高調減這都是你們自己行政裁量權把立法權全部都晾在旁邊我認為這不是一個正常的做法任市長有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12298.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12325.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
順便提嗎 軍公教人員奉集法制化然後呢 也另外再提出政務人員奉集法制化這個我們回去再演繹一下 好不好是 然後也希望是部長至少在現行的制度底下考試院 權序部他還是負責有關於政務人員的相關的法規不管您同不同意 但是現在就是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12326.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12332.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以既然有了政務人員退府條例那政務人員的相關的其他的規範是不是也應該要一併提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12334.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12358.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
如果說是行政機關這麼消極這麼怠惰的話我們現在立法委員我們都非常努力很認真很積極我們會很迅速的提出相關的法案到時候你們還是得要配合辦理配合來審議不要又說是哎呀這個都跟我們這個我們當時都沒有參與啊我們都不表示意見然後法律通過之後又再提出申請釋憲說我們的法案是違憲我覺得這是極不負責任的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12360.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12385.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好 以上麻煩這個任市長不要忘記明天之前把我們剛剛講的你們送出去的軍公教的待遇審議辦法請一份給我好 謝謝好 謝謝翁委員那下一位我們請吳思耀委員發言那今天會議的時間我們持續進行到所有登記方案委員請大家結束為止好 我們請吳思耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12386.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12414.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
謝謝主席來 我先請法務部次長麻煩次長但我要提醒一下公務人員加薪這件事情目前政策還沒拍板那我提醒一下國民黨的委員那今年很早就已經2025年加薪嘛那當時在立法院審議總預算的時候為什麼Pending到5月才把加薪發下去是因為在野黨的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12416.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12437.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
對於總預算做出了一些很大的一些前置跟干擾好不容易加薪的3%居然是在今年5月才發放到加薪的公務人員的手上請在野黨的委員一再的要求加薪加薪加薪的同時也應當去思考在總預算的審議當中不要為難自己國家的總預算次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12441.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12470.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
因為這個社群上有個重要的新聞我認為是需要澄清一下那我收到了蠻多律師界的反應那昨天在台中地院那赫然發現有一位中國籍的律師擔任了訴訟代理人嗎我沒有進一步的訊息只是看到這樣子的一個新聞讓我們赫然認為要去檢視一下法規那就這個個案法務部應當趕快去了解那事實的狀況是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12471.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12492.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
跟委員報告 首先這個案子因為我們昨天晚上只看到民眾在社群媒體上的發言其實詳細事實如何我們其實並不清楚看他所講的這個內容疑似有可能違反律師法120條規定所以目前這個臺中地檢署會去依法偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12494.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12522.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那但是其他的部分可能細節需要釐清那好像今天這個司法院那邊台中電有發過新聞稿說這個依照台中電院的新聞稿可能要請司法院來補充就是說這一個這一位這個民眾他其實是以這個公司的這一個公司的員工受雇員工的身分所以他並不是辯護律師對 他有沒有 他到底有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12523.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12550.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
用這個律師的身分來執行律師職務我覺得這個還需要釐清那法院的審理過程我們會尊重 以上所以個案你們有掌握司法院也有掌握這個狀況嘛 對不對好 那就個案的部分我認為要清楚了解事實然後要讓社會清楚的說明現在的律師法對於中國律師可不可以在台灣執業是沒有規範的港澳條例22條有規範是可以允許但是要向法務部申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12551.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12570.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
但兩岸條例是沒有規範的兩岸條例是沒有規範的所以說從這個個案來講當然釐清事實是一個重點但後續也給我們立法委員一個好的方向我們好好去就這個方面來處理那我問一下如果外國律師在台灣執業他申請的程序是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12571.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12592.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
是 依照律師法115條的規定外國律師非經法務部許可並於許可後6個月內加入律師公會不得執行職務但是當然他有一些例外的情形所以看來外國律師事務所的申請跟港澳條例22條是一樣的我們剛剛講的是外國律師對我知道那事務所的話是在120條的規定好 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12594.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12609.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那我了解了那後續這個部分我們好好在法制面去思考一下但這個個案要掌握好嗎那不要讓輿論大家有很多的以而傳而的狀況好謝謝次郎請回好誰行政不中立呢請那個權序部我們施部長下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12613.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12631.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
汪小玲委員已經離席了很可惜喔要不然我想請她可以在場一起分享一下我用她的魔法打敗她到底誰適合適用行政中立法很清楚嘛來 部長誰適用行政中立法剛剛她一直在說賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12632.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12652.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
在民進黨的中常會針對核三研議的公投表達了他會去投票這件事情你剛講得很清楚他如果在民進黨的中常會以黨主席的身份這也沒有問題事實上公民投票他在進行的是一個政策政務人員對於政策表達他的政策立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12653.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12662.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這也是他的職責不是嗎是的否則所有的政務人員跟政策相關的事情有公投存在他不能表達他的政策立場那誰為政策負責了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12665.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12684.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我想還包括不同的民選行政首長可能也都有不同的因素所以我要用汪小林的魔法打敗他就是如果賴慶的總統不能夠對於核三研議公投表達他的立場的話那蔣萬安怎麼可以跟黃國昌見面的時候他說支持核三研議公投呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12685.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12703.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
如果賴清德不行 那為什麼盧秀燕可以說河山研議公投是給人民一個新的選項所以同樣的道理政務人員本於政策表達他的政策觀點第一個 他沒有違法第二個 我認為這就是政務人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12705.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12728.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
責任不是嗎所以中央跟地方適用的是同樣一個法律當國民黨的委員一直認為賴清德不可以就是賴清德不可以那麼去問一問為什麼蔣萬安可以為什麼盧秀燕可以我們也不要講因為政黨的關係你的政黨可以我的政黨不可以我們也不要流入黨派之爭就對於公民投票他進行的是對於政策的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12729.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12758.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
政務人員對於政策討論公共事務表達立場合作之有對不對下一頁早上陳培宇委員跟您討論過這個問題行政中立法規範的是我們的公務從業同仁對於人民的表意自由不是規範的對象嘛對不對所以立法院來針對來受訪陳情的民眾身上別了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12759.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12782.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
對於罷免的意見表達的撕帶都禁止帶入立法院那立法院不正是應當歡迎不同的意見進入的民主殿堂嗎你認為立法院用違反行政中立來禁止公民的飄帶別在他的身上進入立法院這是不是大有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12783.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12800.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我早上有說過立法院是一個代表民主政治的一個殿堂它有公共空間的部分有屬於純辦公公務人辦公的部分所以如果做這樣一個區隔就會比較好理解但事實上公務人員行政中立法不適用於人民啊不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12802.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12830.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那我要再用翁小林委員的魔法打敗他右邊這個圖是韓國瑜院長拿著一個這麼大的標語說要不同意罷免這麼大的標語可以拿在立法院的議場前面表達韓國瑜院長跟國民黨立委的意見如果這是可以的話那人民一個小小的50公分的絲帶要被禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12831.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12858.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
這不是很奇怪嗎我接著問韓國瑜院長可不可以針對公投表達他的意見當然可以嘛對不對所以說翁小玲剛剛說賴清德不可以那就大有問題了基於公共政策的討論如果翁小玲委員認為賴清德不可以那請韓國瑜院長針對核三研議公投最好閉嘴不要講任何一句話因為這是國民黨的翁小玲要求的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12859.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12885.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
政務人員就針對政策表達立場合作之有呢完全沒有違反行政中立的問題不是嗎那一個更大的諷刺最意識不中立的韓國瑜最政治不中立的韓國瑜國民黨的委員可以容忍對於人民一個小小的絲帶卻要禁止他這是大有問題的不要雙標至此啊來 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12887.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12902.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
行政部中立在這一次這一段時間我們好好來檢視找出對的方向下一頁洩露民眾的個資來遂行國民黨委員發起的國民黨部發起的惡霸 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12904.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12917.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
違反行政中立被司法認證的而且自己認罪的基隆市的民政處長用個資來幫助國民黨連署罷免有沒有違反行政中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12920.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12939.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
已經被判了嘛對不對司法也認證了嘛花蓮市的民政處長明良珍也違反了各司法違反的行政中立濫用行政權限來替個別政黨進行罷免的事宜也清楚的違反行政中立嘛對不對也被判刑嘛他也認罪了下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12940.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12952.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好 這是一個新的面向要跟您討論這一次也發生了各縣市有一些反罷免的文宣被塞入了它是夾帶著這個選舉公報進入社區 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12957.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12979.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那當然這個案在桃園有在花蓮有我們希望他不是一個通案啦不要成為這種大家有樣學樣這個違法的樣態但是我們從這個事件當中看到的是這些反罷文宣可以跟著投票通知單進入家戶這有沒有涉及違反行政中立我想他應該是跟選舉罷免法有關吧好下一頁選舉罷免法沒錯好 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12986.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12993.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這是一個我們要跟 欸內政部有代表來嗎或是中選會還是內政部 中選會好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12995.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13018.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我們來就這個新生的樣態好好來探討就發生在桃園跟花蓮的選舉公報夾帶反罷免的文宣這件事多數的利害相關人也就是這些反罷的國民黨立委的當事人都說他們不知情這是李林長自己可能假婆啦 或是不知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13019.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13047.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
欸 注意不管是行政中立法是權序部管的或者是公務人員選罷法裡面針對夾帶這種文宣可能選舉也會發生 公投也會發生其實它的規範是不明確的李領長現在是不受行政中立法規範對不對 部長不受嘛 李領長不受嘛但是李領長有沒有受公務人員選罷法的規範 主委他們並不是我們所謂的選務工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13047.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13076.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
所以呢 可以嗎可以這樣嗎這種行為當然在我們選務上是不允許是不中立的嘛我們每一次都是苦口婆心提醒大家從這個個案我們就看到我們法規要精進下一頁我建議針對公職人員選舉罷免法的增訂45條之一很清楚的來明定各級選委會或鄉鎮市公所所委託負責發放選舉公報或者是投票通知單之人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13077.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13103.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
不得有下列行為就是幫忙塞一些東西啦這些有特定的選舉或是政黨議事的相關資料或物品或者是利用發放機會去口頭的宣傳啦去支持特定候選人或者是罷免案或是公投案等等這些東西如果我們試著在公職人員選辦法裡頭來增訂其實就很明確讓林林長知道你不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13104.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13116.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
包括有規定也要有法則我也一併的提出110條第一項如果違反了剛剛所說的幫忙夾帶一些文宣在選舉公報應當中立的事項裡頭他沒有中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13119.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13145.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
也定於罰則就是現在的10萬以上100萬以下您同不同意這樣更明確我們尊重其實即便是在還沒完成立法之前我們這部分還是會加強宣導你們加強宣導一定要加強宣導但事實上就是有一些人惡意的濫用法律的漏洞他說我不知道啦我不是故意的啦或是那是別人做的不是我啦熱心民眾為之啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13147.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13165.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我認為法律明確比較重要其實現在要做這種這個夾帶的行為的話是絕對逃不過民眾的眼睛是 所以這一次罷免的過程當中國民黨的特定候選人被罷的候選人發生這種事情社會才很快的進行反制嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13165.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13183.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
以至於能夠抑制他大量的被有樣學樣被影響了罷免投票的中立嘛我現在說的剛好個案是發生在國民黨的特定被罷免的委員的選區但我們在制度的檢視他應當適用於任何的政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13184.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13212.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
適用於任何的選舉者適用於所有的人因為法律就是不分黨派它規範的是一個該中立就中立該守法就守法所以我們今天在這裡釐清了李林長確實不受行政中立法的規範當然我也想過要不要把他納入啦但是李林長本身納入的姿勢體大李林長本身有黨籍他也是政務人員不是嗎李林長也會陪著我們可能一起參加活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13214.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13238.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以說不要為了規範某些事情就做了不合宜的規範但是對於公職人員選罷法的修訂可以很明確的把夾帶一些選舉意圖特定政黨的東西把它防堵起來我希望後續大家都可以一起來支持好嗎好辛苦大家好謝謝大家那再一次提醒喔不要永遠是 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13239.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13264.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
只要賴清德都不可以蔣萬安盧秀燕都可以我們是同一個國家是用同樣的法律不管是行政中立議事中立政治中立規範的都是同樣的不同政黨的人都要受到規範我要在這裡再一次的清楚的強調而不是選擇性的來守法對不同一級的人就施以不合理的規定好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13265.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13272.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
好 謝謝那我們下一位請王洪威委員 王洪威委員 王洪威委員下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13289.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13315.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
主席在場委員先進列車政府主管官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先有請我們司法院的理聽長和法務部的黃次長以及刑事警察局的蔡坤毅蔡警政監警政監委員好好 聽長好 次長好還有我們刑事警察局的還沒有到 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13322.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13347.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
來 我先請我們蔡警政監是委員好你在刑事警察局你們刑事警察局負責打詐嘛是你覺得詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙蠻嚴重的好 來 謝謝來 次長您覺得一般國人的感受對於詐騙這個事情普遍的一個不滿在哪裡就是無端遭受記憶上損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13348.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13369.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
遭受經濟上損失還有一個就是認為抓到判得太輕你覺得目前這些經濟犯罪詐欺犯被查獲後目前被起訴良刑覺得有沒有看到很多報導民眾的反應我不是說是不是太輕你覺得民眾是不是常常發出這樣的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13370.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13395.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我想這個是常見於爆炸媒體報導的一個說法好 那麼我們知道詐欺它是個經濟犯罪經濟犯罪跟其他的經濟行為很像將本求利它其實它會去算它的成本其中一個很重要的犯罪成本最後端就是被抓到的風險以及抓到後判刑的長短 是不是這樣對好 來 請教廳長最近我們看到有那些車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13396.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13425.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
被起訴之後法院一般認為說被害人認為判太輕了車手都判幾個月甚至好幾個案子判了後放出來又再犯又再被輕重廳長你有沒有聽到這樣的一個民眾反應有為什麼我今天特別來問這個問題我們財政委員上個星期我們到幾家銀行去考察他們的零貴主詐的成效結果在場很多媒體就私下跟我反應說判太輕了但是我要說的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13427.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13446.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
判刑的長短他只是一個他的犯罪成本前面還有很多階段他有投入的成本我們主詐防詐包括就是打詐就是要把他的犯罪成本高到他覺得投資報酬不划算是不是這樣子我非常贊同委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13448.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13467.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
對於詐騙的打擊這個部分 除了要提高他的犯罪成本之外事實上前端的肆詐 堵詐 還有阻詐這個部分就是說增加了犯罪的障礙 或是提高犯罪障礙的部分可以減少犯罪率 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13468.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13494.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
是 我知道我們今天很理性的討論我們都可以理解在場聽的人也可以接受但是一般民眾他只能看到的是什麼都被抓到了還判那麼輕這就是一般民眾的痛我們做再多 前面再多讓詐團 讓詐欺案件下降都抵不過最後這個判刑的輕重可不可以請您跟司法院這邊反映一下這是普遍民眾為什麼得了司法不公或者持來的正義不是正義這種感受可以帶回反應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13495.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13511.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
這個沒有問題但是我在這邊也可以澄清一下我們從113年有做了一些相關的量刑跟引導的一些作為包括所謂的量刑行情的一些系統還有一些加重詐欺的量刑的審酌事項或是參考表 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13512.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13534.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這些我們可以從113年的量刑的量刑的統計跟到114年的量刑統計我們發現了一個趨勢就是我們已經有慢慢的引導法官對適當的量刑在一年以上的量刑比例從以前的大概六成現在再提高到七成以上我大概理解了但是你看你今天講我還是第一次聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13535.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13560.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以我們希望司法院要加強對這個部分讓民眾理解打詐不是只有行政院的事情司法院法官們也共同的感受到民眾對這個的痛好不好那另外一個事情接下來的正義不是正義台版柬埔寨案它雖然出發點是經濟犯罪但是最後是一個暴力的家豬被害人甚至死亡這個案子您知道已經在台中地院審理多久了嗎兩年多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13563.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13589.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
而且到現在呢 這些共同背後很多我們知道案情很複雜但是有更多的這些受害人 將近十位的受害人到現在其中一個在屏東這兩年多來 他常接到船票 舟車勞頓心中的恐懼傷害還沒平復這個部分是不是在審理相關的詐欺或者相關暴力犯罪的進度您會不會覺得可以再讓民眾感覺到我們司法院 司法正義有在幫助人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13590.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13614.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這個的確我們有在精進的地方這個個案我雖然我通常不談案但是這個個案我特別要提出因為台版柬埔寨讓台灣的民眾真的shock希望未來在審理上能夠趕快還給受害者一個公道好嗎好 謝謝 請回來 接下來呢我要再請教一下我們要請我們的來 詐騙手法現在請次長還有我們警政署現在警察局 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13615.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13644.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
詐騙手法層出不窮什麼都有 買票 買演唱會的票然後點去投資 連奇交所都有好 那往下看那麼現在我們所謂的行政院的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動法務部是其中一部分對不對內政部警政署 行政警察也是我們看到的最低的時候是在哪裡114年今年2月的時候那時候我們宣布了一個網路社群平台廣告實名制馬上案件量就下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13646.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13662.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那個金額呢 損失金額也下降但是過沒多久又開始跑上來了我們 次長你覺得是不是打詐不可能一個招數就有辦法有效是不是要持續的對於詐團是以施壓反制他是不是這樣子 次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13663.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13693.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我想我們都一直持續的在精進我們的打炸的作為所以不是只有一招就可以停了還是會起來 好 往下看現在我們看到的呢現在目前民眾所習慣的就是165專線嘛是不是 蔡警政監這是行政警察局的嘛是的他是一個常設的編制嗎目前他是辦公廳設在寶一裡面然後呢 人員來自哪裡人員目前其實他本來是任務編組是架在炸防中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
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那炸防中心是編制嗎市政是編制嗎也是任務編組那行政院呢行政院的炸防辦也是任務編組所以拜託我們次長我們行政署所有民眾關心的打炸他必須要持之以恆的去進行所以你們是不是支持炸器犯罪防治中心的組織化又法制化 |
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好 那我們要請教一下有兩個部長很重要一個是全區部部長一個是人事總署來 人事長來 請請教兩位是不是也支持我們民眾最關切的打詐需要給他有足夠的力量持續的來做這個事情 |
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這個大概過去這一兩年刑事警察局跟我們提我們一直很支持只是說他內部的分工的問題好我後續會問所以你是支持的那行政院支持那我們那個考試院那個權需部 |
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13750.897 |
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現在這案子到你們那裡了嗎這個案子還沒但是過程有一些大家交互問過一些意見我們全區部一向的態度是行政院因為這次要不要設置一個行政院政策設了以後剩下就主編的部分我們一定會協助來處理好 我們希望能夠在9月的時候完成但是我們要請刑事警察局了解一下來 刑事警察局 |
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13800.046 |
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你們刑事警察局是幾級機關啊四級機關但是你們四級機關底下有37個內部單位來根據我們你們還要再增設一個這個防詐中心已經37個了你還在增設讓我們看到說那樣的組織是不是要檢討呢根據我們中央行政機關組織基準法第10條階段性任務已經完成或政策已改變者或者說業務或功能明顯萎縮或重點者 |
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你們有沒有盤點過這37個有沒有哪一個可以節省掉讓我們放資源到打炸中心的你們有沒有做個檢討報告委員這個部分因為我的這個夜館不是這個部分那我是有參加相關會議有聽到這個應該聽到誰說就是我們還有包括聽到我們人長說來人長講一下你覺得呢行政檢察局有沒有好好的去做根據第10條來進行這樣的一個檢討 |
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他們都有很多的考量所以這個事情就磨很久現在等於我們8月6號已經把案子簽到行政院那就誠如委員所提的大概目標看能不能9月就到前續部用餘 別拖啦 |
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但是你們在過程中也有提到這個部分嘛刑事警察局應該要檢討一下自己的底下內部單位因為分工太細那個溝通成本太高啊稍微整併一下整個刑事警察局對他們來講是一個很好的事情然後第二件事情就是 |
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為了打詐而成立的單位我想剛才委員的數據資料也可以呈現說一年的詐騙案件多少我相信應該在所有部會努力下應該兩年內應該案件量會往下當案件量往下的時候就是委員所提的業務後功能明顯萎縮的時候那個組織應該也要做一些調整 |
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13901.928 |
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所以你的意思是說 如果我們胖子就要吃油了胖子如果我們好 油就不用吃了是不是對啊 如果我們不吃 那對他身體會傷啊但是如果我們油吃得不好 身體不好這個油也不要吃 是不是這樣吃得好就不用吃 吃得不好就不要吃 是不是這樣是 |
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所以來那個那個刑事警察局的蔡警政監你聽到請你回去帶給警政署帶給刑事警察局我們希望支持你們成立常態化的組織編制但是要定期檢討如果沒有效果我們就回到我們的組織精簡好不好 |
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好 那最後我這邊要請教我們的次長來 我們也分享一下過去我們有一個國民法官法它這裡面立法在通過的時候對於國民參與審判的制度我們就訂了一個六年的一個評估每年要出一個報告六年後要提個總結報告再決定國民法官制度要不要繼續走下去是不是有這樣的一個規定是好 來 廳長那你覺得司法院未來會不會到期後也來檢討一下到底這樣的制度有好 |
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就繼續吃 要不好就停下來成效評估委員會的成立本來就是這樣的目的是嗎 所以我這裡就說所以我們請人事長我們請那個權敘部這邊我們的結論就是我們盡速推動刑事警察局詐欺防罪防治中心組織 |
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並且參考我們國民參與審判制度定定一個成效評估來考核它最後就是希望我們給你們工具給你們方法但是你們要珍惜使用以應國民的期待幾位是不是都認同好 謝謝好 謝謝我們下一位請陳冠廷委員發言 |
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你好 我們請全序部長然後人事總處的人事長好 處人事長委員長大家早這一次的風災它暴露的不是人力數量的不足是人才它有流失的問題鄉鎮公所是我們第一線的救災單位可是我有接到很多鄉公所的這些人員他這一次的救災的時候第一線的人員都忙得焦頭爛額的 |
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他們說他們的考試分發到鄉鎮公所的公務員他們契約綁滿然後就設法去調到縣府或者是到六都或者是中央我認為這個設計的合理性是可以去檢討的現在鄉鎮公所的委任官他的比率限制是35%然後縣市政府已經下修到25% |
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14059.608 |
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公所的阻密值等是8到9然後課長只有7到8這樣子的值等天花板是不是讓年輕的公務人員看不見未來所以我想請教行政院是否有沒有辦法來去協調考試院來去比照縣府的標準來把公所的值等限制去鬆綁 |
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我跟委員報告是過去這一年多來我們一直在跟前續部去協調有一些縣市政府的一些職等要往上不然的話會嚴重傾斜到六都或者中央機關那個委員所關心的問題事實上我們也有看到而且我們也跟前續部在談現在我們是採分幾個階段第一個階段影響了職等調升的大概3000多人 |
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那我們這個部分經過考試院院會通過以後我們大概會進行第二個階段我們是採分階段那我可以請那個市部長我跟你們報告我想剛剛林市長已經提過在過去這一年多以來其實人事總署跟行政院考試院在跟我們兩部會對這個整個植物業等特別是地方的真的是做了很多的一個答案目前大概有已經有個案子出現出來包括您提的特別是鄉鎮市公所的委任的 |
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配置占比現在是35%我們也應該是會往下調的方向在走這一點但是因為這個還在討論中也需要經過考試院最後的審查通過我只能跟委員報告說確實我們有溝通的方向是這樣子 |
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這樣有方向就好我們是希望因為這一次就是民眾第一線都至少鄉鎮施工所這鄉鎮施工所的餘額如果不滿我想就是說有很大的問題所以我們希望調降他的委任的占比這個大概有這個方向在走謝謝另外一個部分就是關於也是公所鄭公所 鄉公所他們提出來另外一個問題就是建築師證照這種類似這種特殊的這種職缺 |
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通常我先舉你們的考選部的統計資料考選處它的公職的建築師已經連續三年沒有辦法足額錄取11年跟12年兩年是百分之百未錄取一人我想大家都知道這個狀況這代表說真的有建築師這個執照的證照的人他不會選擇擔任公職因為在外面就比較好 |
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可是這樣子要有審查建造實照的需求可是相關人員又沒有辦法具備又沒有具備建築師證照那就變成說實務的需求跟現實的狀況還有法定跟規定的狀況就是脫節如果這樣的狀況你又不改 聘用不到主額的專業人員又卡在經由的公務員的援額這樣怎麼辦 |
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14229.493 |
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14246 |
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我跟委員報告一下事實上過去這幾年我們一直在協助地方的鄉鎮公所在解決這個問題因為他要核發那個使用執照必須要有建築師的一個license那陳魯委員剛才提的111跟112 |
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14247.921 |
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一個是沒人扣 一個是沒錄取今年2113給我們錄取一個其實是沒人贏啦沒人贏所以在我們會採兩個方式一個是在人也還沒有補齊的時候就是拜託縣市去跟當地的建築師公會要怎麼合作的簽證委託給他們去簽去搭配一個做一些公司合作的方式 |
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第二個部分我們也有在跟考選部那裡盡量去宣導大家可以靠第三個部分說這個也是大議端的問題啦我想雖然沒有辦法跟民間一樣的一個大議起碼我們會把大議拉上來讓跟公司之間的大議落差小一點好 謝謝那接下來中選會我們請謝謝 |
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主委好主委去年五月我提出的修法是說會經政黨同意非政黨推薦者不得使用政黨的負責人的姓名頭像及政黨標章我之所以提到這個問題的原因是因為就是在選舉的時候就是有人故意明明就是比其他政黨的但是為了要拉低其他候選人的票數來去偽裝成跟同一個政黨 |
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14356.91 |
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這個狀況你剛剛不是跟我說你不認為要另外採相關的立法考量你說中選會還是有很多其他的方式來可以做救濟不過我說救濟程序你走完之後選舉就結束了你又緩不及急那個時候你說你會回去研議來看一些什麼相關的辦法來去做來去防止類似這樣子錯假亂來混淆的這種狀況出現 |
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經過幾個月之後我們現在已經快要八月中了在不修法的前提之下你的解決方案是什麼跟委員抱歉我們目前的研議的工作還沒有具體我會在最快的時間裡面我想我們會內的意見再送給委員跟委員做報告 |
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因為現在混淆的方式就不只是針對我們執政黨而已針對在野黨針對執政黨針對任何一個黨針對任何一個候選人都會發生這樣的狀況已經上次就發生了就是有我不討論個案但是他是在嘉義台南高雄都有這樣的狀況 |
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14401.651 |
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都是偽裝成民主進步黨的然後再配上我們的這個黨首就是黨主席然後說就是如果你是支持黨主席那你的立委就要投給哪一個人同樣的方式也在縣市議員鄉鎮市長都會出現也都可能出現那他們已經 |
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堂而皇之的用這種方式去混淆選民的已經開始在做過去做了而且是大規模的投遞在信箱大型的看板都在做混淆的做法如果我們沒有修法請你提出辦法 謝謝請給我一點時間 謝謝委員好 謝謝 |
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所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關技術送交個別委員及本會委員吳佩奕 王洪威所提書面執行均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議進行到此結束 |
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議程 討論事項 做如下決議均另定期繼續審查 現在散會 謝謝大家 |