| IVOD_ID |
16867 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16867 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-33 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第33次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
33 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第33次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-14T08:35:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-14T12:09:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:33:23 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea49fe9bba21443e533f25c319ea2bba07a4a8e3640dc7cc208332365c128bca665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「行政區劃法草案」等2案：
（一）繼續審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案。
（二）繼續審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「行政區劃法草案」案。
二、審查「住宅法」修正草案等40案（詳見議事日程）。
【8月11日、13日及14日三天一次會；8月11日處理第一案，休息至14日上午9時繼續開會。】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:37 - 12:09:00 |
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大家早安報告委員會我們現在繼續開會請宣讀本日議程一審查行政區劃法草案等二案二繼續審查住宅法修正草案等38案審查住宅法修正草案二案宣讀完畢 |
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好 謝謝本日審查之住宅法修正草案業經本會於114年4月24日本會期第13次全體委員會議報告及詢答結束並於114年6月19日本會期第26次全體委員會會議進行大體討論決議令定期繼續審查原則本次會議繼續進行審查本日審查之法案順序為第一 先處理本週一行政區劃法的七個保留條文再來進行住宅法修正草案的審查 |
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現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分 我們王美惠委員黃婕委員蘇巧惠委員李柏毅委員張志倫委員徐宇貞委員還有我們高金素美委員 |
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2181.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
官員的部分我特別跟大家報告一下這內政部我們劉世芳部長現在依然坐鎮災害應變中心已經事先跟本席打過招呼之後想救災完全沒有問題可以體諒所以今天內政部由我們吳唐安常務次長來做代表那由我們審查跟原住民相關原住民主委員會副主任委員杜章梅莊那補充介紹剛剛到我們現場的我們張宏祿召委來 在這裡 繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2189.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2199.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好那報告委員會我們現在針對行政區劃法的保留條文進行處理請宣讀新增的修正動議以及相關附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2202.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2230.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
修正動議第十三條第一項後段修正為省直轄市或縣市行政區劃計畫之原住民族代表或關係部落代表不得少於總數三分之一鄉鎮市區行政區劃計畫之原住民族代表或關係部落代表之比例不得低於原住民族人口數佔轄區內總人口數之比例其餘同委員牛趙 其餘同委員牛許廷等提案第十三條提案人委員高金素梅等三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2232.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2251.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
附帶決議行政區劃事關國土資源的合理配置與永續發展更攸關原住民族語言文化與集體生活形態的延續原住民族在臺灣居住超過6000年然而國民政府遷台後未能充分理解原住民族的社會結構與族群特性在行政劃設時忽視其同一民族同一語言的集體性 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2252.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2278.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
將其分割於不同鄉鎮使得族群聚落被切割文化傳承斷裂嚴重影響其社會發展與文化保存因此行政區劃法通過後未來在實際化設行政區時考量族群特性及人文歷史脈絡與因政治經濟社會文化或其他特殊情勢變更等因素時應明確納入對原住民族集體生活形態與原文化的尊重與保障確保其文化延續社會結構與空間權益不被忽視或侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2279.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2304.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
建立尊重多元族群兼顧歷史正義與區域平衡發展行政區劃體系還原原住民族應有的空間權與發展權提案人委員高金素美等三人宣讀完畢好謝謝那這個剛剛本期還有提出再修正動議但沒關係現在正在影印跟發放但沒關係這個跟我們第五條部分我們可以先開始來做討論那我們現在進行主條協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2324.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2327.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2375.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2401.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好 各位委員辛苦了我們這個張宏祿委員第五條修正動議還有這個本席的提案條文第六條是有關於啟動行政缺化之前的考量因素那本席的提案是寫得比較多那包含修正動議的部分是比較少那上次的部分討論到一半好 看看各位委員對於這一個條文還有沒有什麼補充的意見好 我們來進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2406.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2414.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
還有沒有 還是我來先說大家手上有這個條文對照表嗎因為未來方便嘛 剩下七個條文的對照表大家應該有齁那我先跟大家做一下說明啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2424.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2442.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
提案裡面行政區劃應配合國土整體規劃並且考量下列的因素1234567-12那本期後來想說大家在討論的過程中大家互相體諒然後盡量也達成共識本期提這個案子其實擺明來講最希望就是說生活圈的部分能夠納入整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2443.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2471.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以其實對於第九點的都會區生活圈跟生態圈的歸屬本席是比較堅持其他的部分像上次我們劉部長有講有災害防救跟環保生態保育等等是比較細項的部分可以不考慮納入這個本席也願意接受其他的部分看看大家還有沒有什麼想法比如說族群特性歷史人文脈絡財政民意的部分看看大家還有沒有什麼特別的想法我們看看有沒有辦法推進一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2473.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2500.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
來 請張宏祿召委我覺得這個牛召委你的第九點這個我認為可以放進去那其他的我覺得那就真的有點細了所以我們是不是如果大家的話我可以如果可以的話就是在這個我提的案裡面的把它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2502.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2522.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
你加 再變成第五項吧第五款啦 變成第五款啦對 你覺得咧 嘿 對啊對對 嘿 不知道大家的看法好 各位委員還沒有什麼看法要補出來 請高經委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2531.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2553.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第六條這個部分我覺得族群特性和人文歷史脈絡那個是蠻重要的我記得在當天的公聽會裡面有非常多的專家學者還有我們原住民的族人其實都蠻在乎這一個部分就是族群特性還有人文歷史脈絡這個部分我覺得不應該讓它省略掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2554.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2576.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那這個部分如果放在第五款其他影響地方治理這事項好像又很怪嘛所以你看人口規模成長趨勢自然及人文資源則合理分配山川湖泊海岸及海域之分布選舉區之劃分還有其他影響地區治理這事項但是沒有講到族群特性尤其是原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2576.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2604.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我給大家舉一個例子來講在台東的金輪部落吧他一條巷子裡面都是排灣族人下面的人就不可以投給山地原住民他是投給平地原住民那同樣是排灣族人就一條上下部落這樣子所以我覺得這個部分族群的問題應該是要被考量進去的好不好以上補充說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2605.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2622.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 謝謝因為我也覺得族群特性可能因為我們有這個原住民的部落啦等等他剛好就在那種行政區域比較粗略的地方啦所以我覺得應該有一定的必要這再加一款啦對啊 把它移過去啊好 那我們把它改成我覺得第四那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2626.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2652.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
對 加56嘛那我們把修正東西再做討論變委員會修正版本嘛就是我念一下行政區劃應配合國土整體規劃並考量下列因素一 人口規模及成長趨勢二 自然及人文資源之合理分配三 山川湖泊海岸及海域分布第四 族群特性及人文歷史脈絡五 都會區生活圈或生態圈之歸屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2654.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2674.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有沒有 四是族群特性集成文歷史脈絡五是都會區生活圈或生態圈之歸屬六 欸 四五六 對 選舉區劃分嘛然後七 其他影響地方治理事項這樣應該比較平衡一點內政部應該這樣調整一下應該OK啦好 謝謝武當事長那我們就照 大家再看一下族群特性集成文歷史脈絡不是地方財政喔 是那個對 產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2684.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2687.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
是都會區生活圈或生態圈之歸屬六市選舉區之劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2717.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2730.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 就這樣因為這個是大概是比較積極的要件啦所以我們抓比較重要的就是說做行政區案之前一定要考量那些事項好不好那其他比較細項我們就併在其他的條款裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2741.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2743.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
選舉其實劃分是黑的啦但是點...點...對啦好 那我們就印出來那我們就照委員會審查通過 可以嗎好 謝謝往下走這個大家手上有拿到這個再修正的東西嗎這邊剛剛發下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2771.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2775.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
沒關係等大家整理一下第六條的部分上一次討論的差異我跟大家報告一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2790.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2815.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
行政區的話當然提出當然是由政府機關為主這我想我們大家已經有充分的一個共識啦但本期的提案裡面其實是蠻強調公民參與的一個部分所以我希望在人民有相關建議的權利的部分可以把它列入法條那當然啦這個建議的回覆跟準駁當然都還是在政府機關啦都避免就是說因為個人的許願然後造成勞使動眾的一個情況所以只有建議之權但政府有做有做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2817.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2835.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個審核跟回應的這樣子的一個責任所以我們有提這個再修正動議希望大家稍作一下參考其實前面的部分只是文字上跟跟法律用語上的調整而已這個內容上是沒有差的那只是多一段人民或團體就其住所所在或是組織區域之行政區域可以像 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2837.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2856.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
該管機關提議擬定行政區劃計畫那主管機關受理之後依下列要件分別處理可以邀請提議者到場陳述意見但如果你不到場你不陳述意見你不把理由交代清楚當然就不予處理大家看一下文字的部分聽一聽大家的意見提醒大家的意見來內政部先問官方意見好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2867.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2889.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好謝謝主席那這個新增的這兩項的部分其實在行政程序法規定中其實只要是人民或團體他有所提出都可以來提出都可以來照這個規定來申請跟提出所以說如果放在這邊是不是不寫也是也OK在依照行政程序法本來就是可以這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2891.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2918.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
來 請張宏祿召委其他委員如果沒有要那個的話我覺得啦這個講的這些都合理啦但你把它弄在條文裡面我覺得我們給它可不可以放在立法說明裡面因為你條文這樣好像在寫變成不像條文的感覺了對…不像條文的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2922.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2950.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我是參考都市企劃法對不對我跟那個次長也跟洪祿召委說明一下就是說我們這樣寫的這樣子的一個體力基本上是參照都跟條例啦因為我覺得行政企劃等等它其實就跟人民的生活它其實蠻密切相關的所以我覺得把這個東西寫進去是比較是比較完整的那當然你講說我既有包含部長信箱等等它都可以受理但我覺得在強度上跟專門性上有一些些落差不是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2952.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2978.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
沒有沒有 你要看再修正動他在修正動沒有啦 我的意思是說啦你的這個第五款下面你人民團體就其所需之行政區域得向前該管機關提議擬定行政區域化計畫我覺得到這裡就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2980.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3007.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我覺得到這裡就好其他的後面的一些我們討論一下再修正動議我針對他的修正動議因為上一次是紅路委員提議修正動議我針對他的題再修正動議其實一樣啦沒錯啦沒錯啦沒錯啦沒錯啦對我們就我們來討論啦我們來討論對啊因為原始版本在最左邊嘛寫簡單一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3009.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3010.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
細節 欸 我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3015.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3043.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那個 我請教一下次長就我們 還有民政司嘛對不對我們上一次討論的時候其實有提到就是說這個法通過之後他一定會有一些辦法跟執法嘛 對不對我們能不能在相關的辦法跟執法裡面來做比較詳細的說明跟報告這樣子的方向就是說我們在這裡保留提議權的這樣子的法律文字說明但是相應在細項裡面我們讓他有放在辦法裡面有沒有大概會放在哪些辦法裡面是不是請行政 那個內政部稍微說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3043.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3062.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 謝謝主席我想那個後面的第二項的部分這些比較像那個作業規定跟後續的比較細項的程序的陳述及如何處理那這個部分是不是可以我是覺得可以放到後續有四個執法裡面的部分裡面去把它做一個明確規範這樣應該會比較簡單啦不然放在這邊每一樣東西的作業的規定都卸在我們這個法內感覺太細了 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3082.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3090.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
沒有 他這些準博他不能寫在辦法裡面他如果可以寫在辦法裡面我覺得就OK因為他說現在是這段留著可以讓他聽但是你寫這樣就寫得很長 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3094.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3115.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主席那個我是不是建議在第7條裡面的那個是就在這一份資料修正動議在修正動議裡面的第7條裡面他的最後一項有一個第一項大家就請大家過夜就第一項公開展覽公聽公民民意調查辦理方式等等這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3117.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3137.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
人民陳述意見就這個東西的處理及其他的事項辦法由中央主管定制這個我們把它就訂到後面相關的執法裡面去把它做處理應該是可以的對啦 我覺得是這個主法你寫得太細好像變成施行細則或什麼的 不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3138.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3150.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
不是啦不是啦沒有再修正動議是我提的修正動議是張昭偉提的對再修正是我提的是劉昭偉提的你看最後面對你看最後面對表頭是寫針對他寫的再修正動議那是我提的對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3158.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3187.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
沒有我們都商量得非常愉快因為上禮拜我們就是照這個的版本我們是照修正動一直在做討論他是照版本再繼續的啦好 請李博義委員那個次長你剛剛跳得有點快我們現在還在第六條那你剛剛跳到第七條我先講回來第六條針對你對於第二項的這一些意見我也覺得可以支持比較支持內政部的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3187.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3205.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
因為這些相關行政程序法跟可能我們之後還有四個執法還有這些作業規定裡面來寫這個會比較我覺得會比較清楚一點那第二個我想要請問你的是針對前面這幾項包含變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3208.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3217.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個牛召瑋的版本變成這些機關是主...變主持啦然後來提出這些內政部有沒有什麼相關的意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3221.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3238.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 我們請蘇曉輝委員補充再請內政部一起回答好對 我也只是針對因為我剛剛的意見舉手了以後跟博弈的意見幾乎是一樣的那不過既然博弈講完那我就擴大講一下好 我現在搞懂我手上這一份是牛召瑋的不是上面張宏祿三個字害我有點confuse |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3241.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3269.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那沒關係那我覺得這份再修正動議可以看出來其實牛召瑋是對六七八十十一十九都提出了這個修正的狀態可是中觀來講其實您修正的部分啊意義上都差不多啦就是說是把這個程序都寫的比較清楚完整有一個方向然後把它放進條文內所以條文幾乎是原來修正動議的都幾乎變成兩倍長 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3271.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3287.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
或者是1.5倍長那可是我想表達的意見其實是我贊成內政部的方向就是我們其實是在訂今天在訂這個行政區劃法它未來一定有相關的執法甚至是作業要點等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3288.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3317.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那甚至是其实不管是行政程序法或是公民投票法都是已经我们行之有年的既定法律所以如果我们在这个我们现在今天会新定的这个行政区划法当中如果是可以参着这个不是可以参着是直接可以适用行政程序法或适用公民投票法的其实我们在今天新定的法律条文当中其实我个人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3318.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3338.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
措辭比较硬一点的话就是我认为不应该啦那如果是和缓一点的话我认为我不建议在这里再重新赘述我觉得这样会是比较漂亮的条文所以今天的再修正东西我都可以明白方向也支持方向就是好好的来决定这个状态但我不建议放在这些条文内这样 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3339.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3367.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 請內政部再次做說明好 謝謝主席 那個第六條其實它一開始的話是指行政區劃的計畫是由機關來擬定主要是我們的原來的內容應該是這樣講所以才會有上面是直轄市縣市主管機關如果涉及鄉鎮市 涉及跨區等等的才會有這個的規定那把人民跟團體這兩項放進去其實就是剛剛李委員在問就是說這個放在這邊的看法其實我是覺得那個會在第七條可以再做個討論就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3367.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3390.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
而且剛剛那個蘇委員也有談到確實我們行政程序法跟公民投票法相關規定其實相關對於民眾的受理申請意義其實都有所規定那我們如果把這兩項加進來的話等於是說在這條內容都在談擬定機關但是把人民團體這個受理的東西寫在這一條就會比較奇怪了而且我們大家注意看我們是提出我們當時是希望是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3391.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3416.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
行政區劃由下列機關提出那這邊是寫的寫擬定我覺得應該還是用提出提出這個計劃的部分然後由這個是指明定有哪一些機關例如說直轄市 縣市政府 相關公所等等的所以說也就是剛剛最後那兩項加的部分我是覺得那個可以在第7條裡面由訂定相關執法就可以來做說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3421.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3445.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我覺得是這樣子啦就是說你訂或提出本席沒有意見我覺得這OK那我覺得第六條的核心概念基本上是在講的就是說行政企劃的發動者但我就希望在發動者的過程之中我也不想要在另外再加一條去寫因為我們現在這一段是寫發動第七條開始就是寫後續的一些程序嘛對不對那我人民如果主動有想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3446.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3457.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
想要我們前面我就希望這件事情在專業跟民意間取得平衡嘛我希望人民的參與從一開始他就有一定的角色所以我才會比較強調就是說人民會團體他有提議之權那來那個牛趙我剛剛不是跟就是把這一個這段保留嘛這段保留啊後面的後面的省略嘛對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3474.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3483.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
對啊 這樣就比較快啦對 我知道 我知道你一定說法律 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3494.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3507.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我跟唐山市長交換一下意見我們之所以把它調整成擬定的原因是因為我們大概整個行政計畫程序法的體力上應該跟這個國土計畫法 都市計畫法區域計畫法等等比較類似吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3508.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3529.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以他們是用擬定啦所以我們用擬定沒有 這我想法啦大家討論一下這個我個人覺得不一樣齁你都市計畫或什麼是政府主動他要擬定一個計畫可是我們行政計畫你既然又要把人民可以那個的我認為是要用提出而且這裡喔如果有我們本來是由下列機關提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3530.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3541.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
提出不一定會過不一定會 那你擬定的意思你都市計畫法那個擬定就是一個政府已經提出一個計畫了 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3543.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3570.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
一個計畫的然後讓大家覺得會不會過可是這個行政區劃我們現在的行政區劃程序法這是提出還要經過人民的討論他們有一個案子一個說政府有很明確的態度在那裡這是完全不一樣的喔政府有很明確的態度你用擬定這個是沒有明確態度我不能讓政府有明確態度所以我才會覺得要用提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3570.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3591.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這我跟趙偉講那關鍵是那個定是哪一個定如果定是定案的定的話那就是您講的就是說政府已經有非常明確的方案但如果是你定的話應該是朝你計畫的概念我覺得應該沒有關係不是啦我覺得我們如果在這邊這樣子沒有意思其實提出跟你定我認為提出會比較寬會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3592.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3600.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
你後面也要加那一段的話你人民怎麼擬定你人民只能提出啊法條的前後我們還是要有連貫我覺得是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3606.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3632.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我這邊跟主席建議因為我們在第7條那邊就會談到行政企劃的擬定計劃草案所以第6條是說他先提出是誰有權可以提出是誰有權可以提出沒關係這個我覺得文字上其實在實務上操作應該不會太多影響不然這樣那我們就一樣用提出但是一些剩下的文字這邊我們就照再修正動議然後保留人民團體的這一項看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3635.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3649.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
提出 往下 人民或團體 對啊主管機關對不對 我是不是有漏字啊對 漏了一個主 把它補上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3659.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3660.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
用這個版本 再去弄 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3669.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3683.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
主席 我們修正動議的文字跟這一次題再修正有點不一樣 新聞有點不一樣是不是可不可以允於用我們的修正動議的文字然後加這個第二項就是人民或團體這樣會不會比較對 因為你上面從行政區劃的有沒有計劃兩個字就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3690.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3705.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
因為行政區劃的計畫是在第七條裡面會談到如何擬定是這樣子所以才會說只要把剛剛新增的那個人民或團體這個加在原本修正動議的第二項第三項第三項我一直說照不是老說照內政部的對啦 跟牛召委的沒什麼差別啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3714.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3736.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好啦 你如果有這樣子的邏輯 我不會不能接受因為只要有方向 有確定 人民的參與有確保那我覺得 我們心態開放一點是無所謂啦 好不好就這樣 好不好 那再看一下照那個你現在這個是按照修正動議嘛 但加了一項嘛 對不對對 要用修正動議啦用修正動議 然後再加一項 變委員會審查結論嘛對啊 現在是一樣的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3748.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3764.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我覺得提議你再說一次這個提出對 麥克風收一下音提出行政區劃計劃建議意思是說人民或團體有建議權對啦 因為是建議權提案權是在機關的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3771.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3790.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
欸 意思會類似跟 就是行政區啊 欸你講類似很危險意思 只是 意思 類似 你想法不是這樣啦我有提醒啦 我說 你也說類似很危險效果一不一樣 一樣就一樣嘛 就這樣子嘛好各位 講起來意思不一樣是聽差一點喔類似 什麼叫做類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3796.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3826.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我们加这一段的意思是为了要能够符合刚刚牛召伟提出的想法那我们也觉得可以参考就是说人民也可以提出这个发动嘛那但是这样子的话后面是由该管机关去处理去审议要或不要但这个因为热热等所以不用写在这里我们就照行政程序法就好了所以只要确保那一段的文字是可以配合行政程序法去发动 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3832.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3854.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我覺得這樣OK啦應該沒有問題啦如果是提出建議會比較簡單因為這個確實我們在城市談提出啦提出的機關那人民跟團體也可以提出建議這個我覺得應該是可以的啦我覺得可以啊這本來就可以啊我覺得本來就可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3855.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3865.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
主席法務部來解說一下好不好多一句 提出 提出來 拜託 謝謝主席我剛剛這樣聽下來就是委員大概對 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3876.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3895.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
再修正動業的第二項應該是沒有旗艦 不是反對啦只是說條文上設計怎麼寫的問題那劉委員最早的版本也是使用建議那我看這一個項的立法目的大概就是在讓人民或團體在計劃擬定的過程當中意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3898.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3926.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
可以參與可以供主管機關這邊來一個參考而已啦所以大概使用最原始的版本像剛剛內政部的這個意見我想應該是沒有問題啦提出建議因為它不是一個有拘束力的程序好對他剛剛說這個文字沒有問題啊我剛剛有看可以就是像剛剛內政部主管機關這邊的意見我覺得沒什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3929.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3930.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
好 敘政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3931.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3960.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我想請教一下就在第六條我們現在剛剛講的行政區劃由下列機關提出嘛對不對那為什麼現在這個張宏祿 趙偉的這個修正動議裡面第一項其實我們既然前面已經有提出為什麼每個地方一二三都還要再加上提出呢不是就既然是下列機關提出你只要列出機關就好為什麼所以我的再修正動議有把它變成冒號跟那個啦對不對是不是那個提出應該是可以拿掉吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3962.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3991.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
文字上要不要洗練一點嘛其實就是這樣因為你已經都已經是說由下列機關提出所以下面一二三項就是列機關就可以了吧好不必要再提出了嘛是吧提出兩個字OK啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3993.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4020.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
是不是那個因為感覺上已經是罪字了因為就已經是由下列機關提出所以下面一二三項應該是寫出機關名稱就可以了嘛好那我們就調整一下好不好那個對啦 者然後改冒號對啦好那另外的話就是然後由跟提出拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4021.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4030.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
油跟體塑拿掉 折留著對 油要拿掉油 對好 後面比照對最後那個要折 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4053.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4054.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
油跟油 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4070.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4098.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好那主席現在因為已經進行到文字的整理了那如果是這樣子的話確實是參考您的這個再修正動議我們來看現在這個版本當中我們到區公說對就是反白這裡了之後下面是涉及直轄市或市區縣之鄉的這個為什麼不是第四項就是再修正動議一樣對我比較傾向這樣如果可以的話就一起調 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4098.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4123.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
然後這樣的話下面才會是叫做前項但如果反過來不是這樣的話就變成是該主管機關之類的好啊那就一樣調吧就把那項把它變成第一那陣部當時對陣部這樣子的狀況還有洪路偉提出我們提出這個版本的時候就文字上把格式做欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4133.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4146.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
好 花一點時間調整一下我覺得你要變成第四項也是因為我們現在多了牛昭偉的人民團體的那一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4148.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4167.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們後面有多那一個啦對啦 所以你要把它變成第四項我覺得也OK啦沒有問題啊 第四點啊本來是沒有你那一個沒有關係 就一起去我知道了 想起來了對不起 有時候時間的關係這個第二項 我們當時把它分享的原因是它會有跨吧跨縣市啦對 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4171.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4189.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我們當時的狀況是因為這段是跨縣市前面的話是屬於就是現有的內部調整所以內政部主管機關要不要看一下怎麼分比較好而且很細節的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4201.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4230.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
台灣市長看一下好不好現在是這樣子嗎你現在是要把涉及直轄市或市之區限之鄉就這一段是要把它變成第四點還是說保留現在的這個變成一項對 款還是項嘛其實就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4233.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4249.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我覺得第四款可能比較簡單一點吧 對不對把它變第四款好了都可以嘛 對不對我好像比較清楚啦就把它變第四款好了那個對對 射擊那邊變四 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4255.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4280.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
對 然後把前面格式跟前面統一另外那個跟主委建議那個紅色字的部分 人民或團體就其所就其住所就其住所所在或組織區域這個組織我不知道他的意思如何如果是我看應該是人民或團體就其住所所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4281.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4296.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
自行政區域就可以了因為我們在行政體力裡面並沒有所謂的組織區域沒有 組織區域是人民團體法裡面的寫法因為組織用住所也奇怪如果社團要的話你應該是社團註冊的註冊的位置 註冊的縣市比如登記在桃園或登記在台北這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4306.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4328.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
舊旗所在之行政區域舊旗所在之行政區域其實就不會有應該也不會有誤解他已經跑後面 他們還卡在前面你去把他們弄下那個前面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4331.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4344.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
或組織區域去把它框定說是因為這個人民團體所登記之區域其實也不用啊只要獲其所在之行政區域其實這個廣義解釋上就是那個所在之行政區域啦好不好這樣就OK嘛好 OK就其所在之人民或團體就其所在所在之行政區域這樣就好了啦這樣會不會法律效果會變得我徵詢一下大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4379.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4385.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們當初寫住所就是應該是要以戶籍啦就是你老家走在地啦我們本來想說寫清楚一點是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4396.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4414.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
如果放在說明呢就是所謂的那個人民所在就是指其住所及人民團體登記之所在補充說明應該不影響在說明內去寫還是人民團體就其戶籍所在戶籍所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4417.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4442.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
戶籍就很清楚啊你們咧 你們因為團體沒有戶籍不是啊 團體只有登記你團體你也是要你要登記的縣市你要登記縣市嘛 對啦你也不能 你就跨縣市啊所以我覺得說如果人民這個把戶籍對啊 這樣把它寫進不就好了就 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4444.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4463.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那個喬惠瑋你麥克風設一下好不好我覺得聽起來好像還不錯如果是這樣因為前面是人民或團體嘛所以後面就是就其戶籍或登記所在地不一樣團體因為多個團體就其戶籍或登記對不對你權威先生不應該處理這個事就是這樣子對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4475.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4501.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好不好 那就這樣吧 辛苦了文字的部分做了很多調整好 再看一下 沒關係我跟你講 你這樣寫來 再一次來 再一次你這樣寫 我們大家看一下啦應該是人民就其戶籍或團體就其登記所在地這樣子會比較明確啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4505.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4510.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們要再請廖參事要致遠一下嗎我們總是要尊重一下專業的意見各位說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4520.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4535.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
因為如果只有像剛剛有人提到就是只有用所在因為所在的解釋有好幾個那你住所居所那像法人的登記他有不同的解釋的空間所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4536.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4562.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
如果是後半段這邊委員的共識我想加人民加戶籍那人民團體因為人民團體他依人民團體法主管機關核准之後他還要向法院辦理登記那登記的事項裡面就有他的會址就類似人民的戶籍地所以用登記這個沒有問題啦就是說人民自然人的話就對戶籍所在地嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4562.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4588.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那人民團體就對登記所在地我想這個是符合法治上的所以現在的文字是OK的嗎現在是說文字現在是說可以不可以在這裡啦他是認為說應該要一個對一個啦那如果是這樣我想他的問題比較簡單的是把那個貨貨把它改成頓點就好了嘛貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4591.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4619.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
人民或團體就表示這兩個人都可以嘛那後面的話就是就其戶籍然後頓點登記所在地好 就這樣 可以嗎好 列印劃押 照委員會盤本他第三第四點的最後提出還是沒有拿掉有第三第四 沒有 三 你看三有沒有 最後提出等一下 那是淡書啦淡書 跟委員報告 那是淡書第四也是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4620.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4628.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
第四拿掉了吧我看第四拿掉了第四調整好了好那就這樣囉我們照委員會審查意見通過謝謝原條文第八條修正動議第七條跟再修正動議的部分我們繼續往下我們看一下再修正動議的部分行政區劃計劃之擬定 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4646.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4673.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
應邀集學者專家行政區劃範圍內的民間團體各級民意代表及村里長舉辦座談會或以其他適當方法廣詢意見做成紀錄以為擬定計畫之參考行政區劃擬定計畫送審議前公展是30日即舉行公定會並辦理公民民意調查後面是講這個資料揭露的部分公展公定會的時間地點應該要讓人民周知 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4675.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4681.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那人民或團體得於公展期間內以書面載明姓名名稱地址向擬定機關提出意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4684.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4705.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這也是一樣這就是談公民參與啦這大概就是這個條文的另外一個大家要多花點時間討論的部分就是說到底在擬定跟擬定的過程中要吸納多少民意嘛好這一部分那我本席也是希望說在這部分在民意的部分可以比較多的彰顯所以寫的東西稍微多了一點那一樣我聽一聽大家的意見好看一看大家的想法來請黃介委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4710.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4737.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
好 那這條我回去看了一下其實我蠻支持牛昭緯的版本因為其實在那個自然水相關的規定水資源裡面其實也有說如果當地要設置一些專戶或是運用小組的話其實要邀集當地的主管機關然後也有把居民代表跟社會公正人士放進去所以其實我認為把居民代表放進去沒有什麼問題而且其實也是民意的展現 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4738.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4761.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
所以我這一條是蠻支持牛朝偉的版本好 以上謝謝我們看一下好不好因為寫的在學生動力部分寫的比較長但其實精神上跟原始提案版本也都類似啦那我們看一下大家在別的文字上或者是一些尺度上內政部要不要表達一下來 請吳次長好 謝謝主席那我想一開始這個代表的內容專 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4767.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4780.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
各級民意代表這個沒關係都可以討論一下來請好那個我 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4784.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4803.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這邊在修正我現在講的是就是在修正綜藝的內容因為這邊寫到說這些計畫的擬定要邀請學者 專家 行政這些然後要做成紀錄這個部分是不是應該我會建議是這個部分我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4806.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4819.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我建議是維持原來中間那個張宏祿委員那個版本就是說各級只要他提出就是要辦理公聽不然的話我這樣子我還要去找學的專家這些都一定要這樣做那再做成紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4821.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4850.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
反而是我們是擬定之後我們會有草案因為照原本的版本是草案之後就會公開30日30日之後自然就會有民眾來提出意見那如果說照再修正的版本裡面就是我還要去找學者專家這個還要做很多程序我不是說做程序不好是說這個程序的話應該是說我先公展公展之後大家有意見就可以來提出而不是我這邊再來擬大概是這樣子然後第二項的部分因為我們之前是談說 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4852.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4864.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
辦理公展跟公聽會必要時是得辦理民意調查那如果照再修正的這個版本裡面會有談到說並辦理公民的民意調查那因為民意調查有大有小 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4867.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4885.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
範圍 行政區塊範圍可能有的很大那這個可能是有必要可是如果非常小的部分的一個範圍例如說鄉鎮 跨鄉鎮的那這個的部分他那個的做民意調查就不是每一件都要做那我是不是可以建議就是在這個內容並辦理公民民意調查這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4886.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4898.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
等等到最後的加了文字就是可以我訂在我的辦法裡面我的執法相關裡面其實我都可以把它訂定那剛好我們在這一條其實我們的尾巴也是說希望把它來訂定相關執法再下一條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4902.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4929.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
來 請張國柱早委我還是比較傾向用我的提案版本啦劉委員的這個不是不好但寫得太細了啦我真的是太細了啦我們可以放在立法說明或什麼而且喔如果要照再修正動議要寫得這樣我不知道 次長那以後如果村裡合併要不要走這些程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4930.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4957.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我現在是市政府區公署我可以直接處理喔不是 對 村裡是第四法如果是這樣你要給我合併我人民我也可以照你這個我反對啊 我有不同意見啊你這個修法過了人民也可以這樣子喔我考慮的是考量到有這個喔例如說跨不同縣市那大家都可以這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4957.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4967.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
對啊反正你已經定成這樣了你說你要給我春禮合併我就是 我不要啊對不對我有很多不同意見啊那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4973.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4988.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
剛剛黃街委員有提居民代表的部分我在這邊補充說明一下因為在上一次的主條審查的時候其實我們有針對居民代表的定義啦那個有比較難定義的問題啦那其實本期的最不管是原始提案或者是現在再修正的東西精神都一樣其實不外乎就是多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4989.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5018.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
民意的角度 那這個尺度捏拿要寫得多詳細這我們用開放的心態來跟大家做討論我在這邊補充說明一下我完全同意啦所以我也是建議你把這些放在立法說明也是都可以寫得很細啦這樣子會比較快啦再修正的對 沒有沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5020.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5023.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
他以我的修正動議版本再去修正動議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5026.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5051.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
沒有沒有但沒有版權問題我沒有收版權啦所以我現在的意思就是說第七條我建議還是用我原來的版本我的修正動力的版本然後把牛許廷 趙偉他講的那一些把它放在立法說明才不會一個法條寫得那麼細然後規定得太那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5052.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5078.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
主席我就可以 敬對啦我就再重申一次就是說我們都支持你今天也我們看得懂也算支持今天你題在修正動議的方向就是希望把事情講清楚這樣可是我真的覺得就是這些文字直接訂到這個今天的行政區劃程序法裡面它會讓整個法條真的太瑣碎了 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5078.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5095.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
他会失去法条原本架构的模样所以我是真的建议是说我们是放在这个立法说明或者是怎么精简法就像我们前面在处理第6条一样我是觉得这样会比较好大家都赞成方向了这样好不好我具体建议第7条如果可以用我的修正动议然后最后 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5107.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5120.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
最後我們再加一款就是牛許廷 趙偉你的最後一款第一項座談會 第二項公開展覽有中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5123.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5146.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
主管機關定制按你前面的那些就放在立法說明我覺得這樣子就符合牛召偉你的意思然後法條也不會太瑣碎因為我必須要再說一次這行政我們今天審的行政區域化程序法這應該是母法的性質確實這是母法的性質我們不要把它變成太細然這是作業要點對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5152.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5167.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我是擔心強度的問題啦我跟大家報告一下這些東西寫的我們都是參考比如說都市計劃法或相關的這些東西那他也是母法但某些層面他把比較重要的東西寫進來但沒關係我想大家再商量一下來 請高興素美委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5168.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5189.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我大概看了一下就是紅路昭緯原來的是說要擬定這些的時候沒有做成他是說必要的時候得辦理公民民意調查就是必要而已但是昭緯的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5191.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5214.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
劉昭偉的是說要辦理這些的時候你必須要廣詢意見做成記錄所以變成他那個他的主動跟他的被告知的這個狀況好像有不太一樣吧高經委員他前面其實紅路版本應該是說倒數第一項倒數第三行是並因辦理公聽會喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5216.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5231.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
並因辦理公聽會然後在後面後面你看必要的時候得辦理公民民意調查可是如果是牛許廷委員的部分的話其實他的這個東西其實比較類似公聽會所以兩者都是用因來處理不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5236 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5260.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
張昭偉的是說必要時得辦民意調查那牛旭林昭偉是說並辦理公民民意調查所以一個是要 一個是必要對你的是必要嘛 他的是一定要來來來 我的前面是應辦理公聽會對 但現在講的是民意調查對 那必要時得辦理現在講的是民意調查嘛 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5260.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5282.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
公聽會都要辦啦但是民意調查要不要辦嘛現在是在討論這個嗎各位那個辦理公民民意調查就是我剛剛跟大家報告就是說因為規模有大有小不是說每一件都要辦如果真的它的規模夠大那還是會辦民意調查對對對不是說大大小小大家都要辦民意調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5283.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5304.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們現在這一個法條大概就是兩個地方比較分歧第一個就是本席製委提再宣動議就是在擬定之前啦你還是要有一個廣徵專業意見的程序啦那這些東西要不要明定入法嘛好這是第一個那現在內政部這邊是希望說簡單一點 授權大一點那第二個是民意調查要不要的尺度啦我們一件事情一件事情來啦我看一下喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5311.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5318.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
宮廷會是一定要辦嘛 我覺得是一定要辦嘛一定要辦嘛民意調查 對 看規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5331.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5353.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我覺得民意調查在這個裡面但不限於電話民意調查因為剛剛這個次長裡面有講嘛比如說很小的 村裡 里界的這些調整或者是鄉鎮的可能你抽樣很麻煩對不對那你抽樣很麻煩你反而在越細緻的地方你要換一種方式做調查比如說你做街坊抽樣或什麼的那也不是不行嘛 對不對但我是覺得這個程序是有必要的 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5355.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5379.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那難道說我們規模小的時候我們就可以跳過這個程序嗎這樣會不會有一點點這樣會不會有一點點草率是這樣但我覺得也不能這樣講啊因為我們事實上我們也在實務工作上面也都進行這麼久了事實上光是公聽會等等事實上也都是民意會籍也就是在調查民意的很大的程序這麼多年來都是這樣走過的在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5379.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5404.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們各位其實包括有時候還當過地方議員的更清楚所以如果變成說在這裡不寫因要加公民投票就表示不尊重民意我覺得反而不能這樣說反而是說我們因為有過實務經驗所以我們深知在法條的定義上面有因和德在這個地方讓行政還有大家有一個裁量的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5405.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5424.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我反而會覺得這是不是比較能夠務實的來處理各項事務這個我覺得大家應該要很具體很誠實的奠基於大家自己這麼多年的經驗人民托付的責任來好好的想一下這個文字怎麼寫來 李博義委員然後張宏祿召委然後高金委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5426.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5448.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們回到第六條我們已經把這個人民或團體已經可以這樣子提出了好 人民或團體提出之後每一項如果不用經過行政機關的這個他認為必要的時候那每一項都進入公民民意調查我覺得這是會是非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5451.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5479.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
呃冗長而且是龐大的這些業務啦所以我覺得授予行政機關必要時辦理公民民意調查我覺得這個必要時齁還是要有稍微有一點斟酌啦不然這個無限大會沒有辦法負荷那所以我覺得可以參考這個張榮路委員的呃修正動議的這個文字啦啊當然我們要尊重這些所有公民的這些意見我們已經在第六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5479.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5505.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
放進來了嘛那所以我們第七條還要不要全部都進入這個民意調查我覺得大家可以再討論一下主席我先講我的看法等一下…我先講委員先把它講完好不好為什麼第七條我要這樣子寫因辦理公聽會跟必要時的辦理公民民意調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5505.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5532.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我跟你講大家對 就像次長講的小型的如果說村裡或是很小型的那個公聽會我是應辦理那個公聽會應該就是大家有意見的人大家都會來參加的因為它區域就非常小所以我說應辦理公聽會大概是這個意思那我這邊必要時得辦理公民民意調查是 比如說以後如果牽扯到縣市河濱那個很大的題 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5533.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5555.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們就要去辦民意調查但如果村裡的合併或村裡的什麼你要民意調查很難啊我寫因辦理公聽會的意思那就是一個民意調查的意思公聽會大概已經有共識了嘛就是非辦不可嘛來 請高進委員 然後徐宜貞委員 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5557.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5577.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好對不起我再再再再釐清一下第6條是說人民團體人民或團體他可以提出行政區劃嗎對不對然後第7條是講說各級主管機關他要提出行政區劃前他要擬定這個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5578.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5598.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
然後呢要在公開展覽30天然後在這三題30天之內要辦理公聽會嘛對不對必要的時候可以辦理民意調查但是我們看一下那個劉昭偉的是說行政區劃計劃的擬定他是說要邀集專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5598.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5626.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
然後用這種方式做成記錄然後擬定計劃的參考所以也就是說各級主管機關他在提擬定這個計劃的時候專家學者還有這些人他就可以提出他的意見跟看法了牛召委的意思是這樣第七條是這樣但是紅路召委的意思是說這個東西是主管機關他提出行政區劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5628.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5637.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
的時候呢 擬定的時候呢他要公開展覽30天所以一個我還是在講一個在這30天之內專家 學者 村民代表能不能跟行政機關有一個講好的這個方法或者是他的意見可以在這邊提出來一個是先 一個是後 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5650.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5668.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我這樣提出我的看法跟想法供在場的大家來討論思考一下要怎麼更完整就是在行政機關主管機關提出的時候這些人就可以有意見而不是說他已經提出來了公告30天之後我才有意見沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5669.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5681.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
核心的概念就是這樣我補充說明一下我們之所以把它放在第一項的原因是因為是行政區劃計畫之擬定也就是在擬定的過程中就要邀請學者專家來做先做初步討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5686.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5711.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
來我們續爭委員先好不好然後再蘇曉慧委員謝謝昭偉我想其實剛剛公聽會必要舉辦這件事情大家都有共識現在是民意調查的部分那因為如果是張宏祿昭偉他提到的是必要時得辦理公民民意調查那其實這個必要時我覺得就有很大的一個空間彈性空間就是說到最後會不會全部都不必要都不必舉行民意調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5712.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5739.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以我覺得為什麼這個再修正版本再修正動議我們會提出來就是說病班理工民意調查主要的原因上不管說在合併的區域大小其實它還是有它就是民意調查的必要性不能因為區域小然後就說我們不尊重不尊重所有的民意所以這個必要除非我們定義的必要時能夠定義的比較嚴謹一點否則的話必要時我覺得可能到最後就每一項都不必要謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5741.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5760.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好 請中路召委其實大家的看法都一樣我說的其實重點就是我們的母法不要寫得那麼細他們 我們我具體的建議就是以我的修正動議然後加牛許廷召委他的第七條的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5761.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5785.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
的這個最後一項把它加進去把大家所關心的問題定在執法而不是把母法寫得這麼細像詩形細則那比如說是不是 那有兩個啦前或後的問題啦還有實際上操作是怎麼樣不是 對啦前專家學者就要加入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5790.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5798.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好 我決定直接走過來用腳的讚不是要合在一起要看什麼時間委員看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5800.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5822.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他們的再修正東西和他原來這個他的30天也是在這裡所以差別就是這個藍筆圈出來這一塊和後面這一塊我們只是覺得現在其實都有規定規定在其他很細是不是可以不要寫在這裡面這個本來就都有這是他們的意思我的想法是說那個行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5825.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5833.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
可不可以參與 錢可不可以參與 有沒有 有嘛因為不可能政府就自己幾個人坐起來就那樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5839.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5857.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
把它放到最後一項報告委員會相關公展公聽民意代表的這些部分我在我的辦法裡面把它講清楚那個再修正動議的前面的這個剛剛那個框藍色的就是行政區什麼邀集學者那這個部分其實可以把它放在說明裡面說要我們做這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5858.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5862.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
然後我就會在這個辦法這個時候我把它滴一滴汁這是技術嘛那我想要請內政部具體回答其實依現行就是我們等一下技術上可以把文字調整的狀況我們事實上是不是就是會這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5874.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5884.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我之所以寫就是怕說你訂的時候沒有做這些事嘛我現在的目的是要你留下會議記錄告訴我們你在擬定區劃現在你在擬定這種區劃的時候本來就在擬定計畫的時候是不是就有專家學者及民意代表意見會進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5897.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5921.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
依照以往的經驗當然都會廣進一定會的啊不然誰是政府哪有那麼人那麼聰明就坐在那裡就寫下來這是一定會有的啊現在會把它列成文字了但是形式上每一個行政區採取的那個徵詢意見的方式可能會有一些差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5925.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5946.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那個報告委員會我們針對這個條因為文字上我們要做一下統整我覺得開始有一點點靠近了因為其實不外乎我去提案我就是希望在這過程中專業跟民意並存嘛那到底文字上寫到什麼樣的程度我們現在休息五分鐘大家針對這個內容商量一下文字的部分然後大家如果看到上上廁所穿口氣也可以好不好休息五分鐘我們協商一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5949.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5949.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
副市長 副市長副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5977.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5986.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
沒有 我是覺得把它寫在說明就好了寫在說明之後 你在那個決議那個附帶決議再加進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5996.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6011.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
寫得太細了在執法裡面把這些概念把它融入來文字要怎麼改?維持這個但是這個文字要怎麼放在哪裡?這些就在執法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6019.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6026.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
後面 把這精神融入啦你一定是 要不要講 要講這部分有關邀請選擇的部分 因為執法中訂定執法那不是更亂的不不 這 列說明啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6034.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6048.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我剛跟你們講說你不要放在這裡你放到說明裡面去講說你應該要做什麼那我就會再執法定律我的意思也是這樣子啊我剛才跟他講說這個不要放在這裡我把他放在這裡所以我們會盯在辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6057.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6071.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
說明在這裡說明在這裡這個東西我會再說明併於那個執法相關的訂金支這邊有執法訂金支我就一定要做我一定要做我同意啊我同意啊記住啊 不用寫這麼細在這邊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6077.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6090.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
不用寫那麼細我們現在的目的只是說因為有時候立法都寫得到這個部分寫到說明然後在說明裡面講就是與執法與相關執法中編入之這樣我就可以清楚了應該是這樣啦好啦好啦先抱一個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6108.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6108.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
廣正意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6127.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6129.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
第一項廣正意見方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6148.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6149.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
有文件出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6171.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6171.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6200.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6210.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
好大家看一下剛剛經過商量之後其實不外乎就是希望草擬的過程中有一個廣正意見的程序所以我們就把這個寫進法條因廣正意見並擬定相關草案那前面我們就用比較簡單的方式好不好我們就採納這個張昭偉跟內政部比較希望的一個方式那最後我們做一項補充第一項廣正意見的方式公展公聽會公民民意調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6222.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6239.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
的部分人民陳述意見之處理跟有關事項的辦法由中央主管定之好那我們待會可能會你一個附帶決議包含就是大小的時候哪些情況下要做民意調查這個牌子很堅持但保留一定的彈性這本席願意讓步好不好我們就照這樣就委員會修正條文通過請問大家有沒有意見沒意見謝謝這樣好廣正意見之廣實好我們往下走再來是第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6257.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6279.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
主席第8條本來那個我是有一間原住民地區的部分那已經放在第6條了所以我第8條就不願意堅持好謝謝那我們就看我還是做了一些文字的調整我們稍微看一下好不好有一些小差異那現在這個高靖有講說原住民等等的就沒有關係已經都溝通好了嘛對不對第6條裡面已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6286.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6303.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
擬定機關因參酌前二項工地會人民建議及公民民意調查分析報告擬定計劃誒這內政部看一下吧我們這個再修正動議的部分對因為他跟前條其實是有一點點有一點點掛鉤的啦所以我們稍微花一點點時間看一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6307.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6308.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
主席各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6325.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6349.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
來 次長有請主席跟各位委員因為我們前面那一條是照原本的那個再加廣正意見我這邊如果對上去的話我會覺得照原來的應該就夠了因為這邊也是針對人民的陳情去做說明如果照原來中間張榮榮委員的版本其實應該就夠了因為我是搭前面第7條的我是兩個一起看 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6352.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6377.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
因为你的人民成型意见跟调查分析报告你一定行政计划就看大家委员的意见对如果要按照刚刚次长所说的话那第8条的那个前面那一项原住民那个就拿掉因为那一个部分已经在第6条里面的第4款已经有了第4项已经有了好给我一点时间我也来看一下好不好这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6382.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6385.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
供聽會及辦理供應銀行的分析報告喔 你有寫在後面嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6420.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6420.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
第八款寫完整一點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6422.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6442.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
沒有啦 如果前面有講好就給他照好像不太 性質不太一樣這是講提出機關嘛這是講提出機關嘛沒有寫的話就沒有了要寫 這反而是要寫第六條後面就都要寫這都要寫對 要寫要寫要寫他跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6452.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6478.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以前面不變嘛 前面照修正動議嘛然後那個本席建議第八款做一下補充就好我們先螢幕上先秀出洪祿委員的修正動議好不好因為我們是前後條掛鉤嘛前面應該沒有問題原住民還是保留嘛對不對因為前面有寫 後面就應該要寫然後殷參濁第一項如果不然殷參濁之嘛 對不對往下拉一點好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6482.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6506.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我想要做一個補充 往下拉 第八點 第八款公聽會與人民陳情之意見並參採情形及公民民意調查分析報告這樣好不好因為我們前面都希望有建議權嘛 有等等等等我們就把它做一個簡單的補充那我想內政部剛剛也OK嘛對 與人民陳情之意見嘛我們加做一點文字修正 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6508.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6532.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
人民陳情之意見並參採情形我們是有寫的詳細一點就是你採或不採嘛 都說明其他就是會議紀錄啦 講白了就是這樣好人民陳情意見並參採情形洪志好 那其他就照本來的修正動議那我們就做文字修正委員會審查結果通過 請問這樣OK嗎OK |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6535.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6539.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好 謝謝 等一下 請他的意見並參採情形也就是針對這個意見的回覆啦你了解齁各位博兄想一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6579.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6592.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
OK 沒有問題 公聽會與人民成親是意見意見跟參採情形嘛 對不對 改成遁號好不好遁改成遁號嘛 好OK 沒有問題 好 那我們就照 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6593.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6621.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
委員會版本通過 謝謝 請印出來大家畫押再來是第10條我們上次是不是有一個初步審查不是這條嗎有啦 是這條啦到底第9條我們沒有提再修正動議啦 抱歉第9條 抱歉 第9條 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6648.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6664.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
來這一樣是原住民族地區那前面應該都放了就放吧對不對其實就是這樣對不對來內政部做一下確認吧第九條上一次我們有一個初步審查初步審查版本啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6680.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6694.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
來主席各位那個可不可以在這個後面併成上級主管機關後面我們這邊有在有些建議再加幾個字就是應該是以那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6695.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6710.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
以張宏錄委員的版本的後面再加涉及原住民族地區之鄉括號正市區括號者應並徵詢該計劃範圍之原住民部落代表之意見應並徵詢該計劃範圍內之 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6722.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6735.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
有沒有在唸一下是放在最後面 不好意思你們那個是異見 然後是併成最後面 我是在最後面加不是改那上面的文字原來那個文字我沒有意見就在異見的後面進去之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6767.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6770.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我發現這樣兩個版本有點走過因為我是有加一個鄉村市區不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6795.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6824.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
最主要是那个原住民地区还有一些乡镇市区我想把这文字再把它加上去要去征询他们的意见在上面那个这样看就比较清楚对对对用多一项这样看得更清楚没有没有接着接着接着接着接着不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6827.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6837.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
他現在把上面的拿掉了寫法啦他把它寫在最後一句啦另外一句來處理啦 對不對這樣會更明確啦鄉鎮市區者那個左關號在鄉的後面 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6869.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6872.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
好 這樣可以嗎好 我們趙委員會修正通過 謝謝好 第12條 本席提案第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6885.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6914.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以我們剛剛因為這個法案先上路啦那我們其實在前面的條文把提議權啊公民的參與都把它讓它比較詳細嘛那還要不要做公民複決我覺得這一步就就不用先跨那麼大我們參查一下學者專家的意見那本學不堅持我們就先不處理可以嗎好這樣比較快來再往下十一條呃等一下第十條我看一下再修正動議好不好第十條我有加一個啦一樣就是為求周延啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6922.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6947.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
第十條是審議跟核定嘛 對不對那審議跟核定的一些規則啦那這些規則其實上次內容上都差不多但本席要求啦就是說行政區域化審議之進度結果人民審議意見參採情形跟其他有關資訊應該公開啦我覺得一樣啦這個就是資訊的透明啦我們就把它一併寫進去好不好如果大家願意成全的話我們就這樣我們可不可以照再修正動議來通過勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6953.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6974.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
跟主席報告 其實這不像 我也寫公開我是說把它列到附帶決議也可以不然很多事情都寫得好細喔我是覺得區法法裡面好像寫東西太過於像細則去了或者是放到說明欄也可以這是最後的準播嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6993.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7006.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我跟市長溝通一下啦因為這兩條啦就是這一條跟下面一條下面一條是審議會規則啦那我覺得那審議會規則會議紀錄做公開啦這樣好不好好不好那這邊我們就不堅持好不好這樣比較快好那看起來就沒有爭議了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7007.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7016.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那我們就照紅路委員的修正動議通過可以嗎謝謝好11條終於到最後了大家辛苦了11條是有關於審議會啦那兩個爭點剛剛有一個內政部已經答應我了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7022.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7041.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那前面這個我們討論喔一個是我們要不要針對不同層級啦不同大小的行政區畫在審議會的規模上做出一些區別啦那第二個就是我要求審議會的會議紀錄要公開那這剛剛內政部已經說OK嘛那公開的部分文字我們就給他保留但審議會的大小是保留一定的彈性還是說我們要給他明定我聽一聽各位委員的意見來 請高清委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7045.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7071.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
對於這個在修正動議的這個第11條它有涉及到原住民的地方就是第二項後面的文字但涉及原住民族地區者原住民族的專家學者你那個代表能不能改成專家學者以及當地部落的代表不可以少於總數的三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7072.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7096.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
對不起 大家看一下就是涉及原住民族地區者原住民族的專家學者以及當地的部落代表不得少於總數三分之一文字做這樣的修改一下好 對 高經緯 抱歉我忘了說明 不好意思高經緯也有提修正統一版本所以還有一個爭點是原住民的部分要特案做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7098.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7123.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這一點本席是覺得原住民至少要特案做處理啦好不好我們商量一下張宏祿召委剛剛有舉手嗎沒有我誤會了拍謝那個內政部我們看一下那個次長我們看一下那個你們應該有高進委員的修正動議版本嘛對不對或者是再看一下再修正動議我們有寫嘛我們是寫部落代表嘛再修正動議也有寫嘛那你看再修正動議就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7124.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7154.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
就是在牛血群委員的再修正動議的第二項但是討論一下剛剛是用專家學者來做補充但是涉及到原住民族地區者原住民族的專家學者以及當地部落的代表不得少於總數的三分之一就是這個區域裡面的部落代表也要參與然後原住民族的專家學者也必須要參與是這樣的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7156.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7177.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
因為這原來是說原住民族的代表或關係部落代表這個關係部落代表上次副主委就有講過我們就直接把它寫這個有關係到的部落代表當地部落代表美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7178.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7193.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
就是在這裡也因為有說到部落如果有原住民的就有三萬錢本身是一個意見覺得說你的區域裡面你有21-27個嘛但是在全港裡面跟社會人數跟地方居民大概51-14個剩下10個至13個 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7208.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7209.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
是要請什麼人是不是了解說清楚一點因為我覺得每一個地方我們都要給他有意見像是在有關住民的地方還有有關住民的社會之一但是你在地方的他的代表我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7236.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7243.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這種的專家學者啦 什麼社會公正的人數啦好沒關係 我們待會就大家有疑問或是有想法要一起溝通因為我覺得要說清楚後來你們的委託來開會嘛 要清楚以上來 蘇小慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7261.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7285.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好那我也是順著王美惠委員的發言在這個關於原住民的這個題目部分呢我們想確認一下我們設計這樣的規則是真正能夠保障到原住民的聲音還是反而加了障礙開會的障礙這個我們一定要講清楚所以剛剛我雖然私下請教了一下高金委員什麼叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7285.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7313.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
因为他刚刚提议说把原住民族代表换成了原住民专家学者那我们就想要确认一下什么叫做原住民专家学者是研究原住民领域的相关学者即可还是要有原住民血统的专家学者这个到时候如果是还要原住民的专家学者那人可能会更 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7314.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7334.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
對 不容易找到對 所以這個的話我是覺得大家要講清楚這樣未來操作的時候讓執行的人不會困難我跟其實原民會的意思都說只要對原住民的專家學者都可以而不是只有原住民血統的專家血統原住民族領域 領域嗎相關領域還是領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7346.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7366.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
其實我其實我們有時候在其他的法規也是講原住民族專家學者你有講領域嗎請問一下副主委其他的相關的法律上面的文字好像沒有講領域或者是對應該都是用原住民族專家學原住民專家學比較廣嘛原民會的意思是這樣嘛好啊那就這樣好我們內政部要不要同意回答一下到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7380.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7398.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
跟主席跟各位報告我在想這個學者要學者專家公正人士二分之一然後原住民又要三分之一所以這樣下去的時候這個第一個會不會身份重疊同時我是原民身份我可能也是學者專家這也是一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7400.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7429.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那我重复记的话是市长你看一下它是一个句号然后只要是涉及原住民地区所以我们谈的是原住民地区原住民地区如果是你有涉及到原住民地区的这些行政区提出来的话你的原住民的相关学者还有当地部落当地部落代表当然是必须要因为有关我的权益 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7432.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7456.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那所以他不會跟你上面那個有關係啊因為我們講到的是原住民地區也是那個專家學者啦說明一下那個麥克風要收音要記錄好不好對不起次長我跟您說當地部落代表很少有專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7459.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7484.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
對啦你的原住民族的專家學者其實呢他是很廣泛的按照我們現在的法規行之有年很廣泛重點是我們還需要這個被化成的當地的部落代表因為有關他的權益部落的代表當然也要出席啊所以你兩個加起來不可以不可以少於三分之一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7487.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7509.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
跟委員報告大概以我們以往改制直轄市的審議的一個方式大概各個領域的包含各個部會包含財政文化經濟發展等等各個部會的政府機關或者專家學者它的範圍就已經很廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7510.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7527.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
如果說依照其他委員的再修正版本要二分之一要這些然後三分之一是要原住民的這種情況變成擠壓了其他相關的各種不同領域的都要代表性的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7528.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7540.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
代表進來可能會代表就是說很難全面性的顧到包含經濟發展文化發展或財政等等各方面的領域的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7542.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7546.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
壓縮的其他各個不同領域的代表的問題是不是可以參照 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7558.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7582.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
以張委員的那個修正動議的部分然後涉及原住民地區者應有原住民的專家學者原住民族專家學者及當地部落的代表可不可以就說名的不要寫有代表但是三分之一真的是太高不同意不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7590.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7599.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
內政部思考一下有沒有辦法用外加條款用特殊方式處理好不好我剛剛稍微思考了一下就是他不受什麼人數限制之類的有沒有一些這樣的體力可以參考大家想一下 好不好因為他想一下那個什麼 關主編你如果三年期你出那一天還要加一加就被壓縮 再加一加 變成什麼國中公務員因為整個各方面的體驗反而會介入外加市長 外加 外加稍微思考一下 稍微思考一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7620.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7620.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
德在元 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7651.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7658.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
令我佳餚 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7662.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7678.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我覺得外加可以 看文字怎麼寫用外加 如果是原住民的話就外加文字看怎麼寫 好好如果外加就可以我們是不是用商委員的版本去談外加我們可以想一下你又要特案這裡嗎但是比例跟文字怎麼樣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7688.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7702.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好 那個報告委員會我們現在針對這個條文稍微有一點點進展好 那就用外加的方式特別處理但我們需要一點點時間把文字做補充所以我們休息五分鐘大家再喘口氣好 我們把文字的部分討論出來現在休息 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7711.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7716.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
涉及原住民主婦居住經由原住民部落代表或專家確證 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7728.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7749.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
七種樹這裡七種樹七種樹不得不遇四分之一不受七種樹不受不受不受不受前開人數之限制但不得主要是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7752.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7780.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
十一跟十九 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7781.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7788.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
今天公布了 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7799.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7805.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
對啊然後我還要看新聞然後看完還看不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7828.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7830.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
有時候人家問我們 我們都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8461.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8470.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
不是啦 你剛才 抱歉現在要休息啦沒那麼大聲聽到嗎你以前剛才說沒辦法處理來外掛現在說起來還要喊外掛 還要錄製但是事情可以處理還要緊 錄製都沒辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8492.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8503.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
政治聽到沒有要協商一下啦事情要有發動改革的問題不然發動改革又越慘 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8719.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8748.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
主席 這樣好了啦恰好啊 恰好啊 有問題後來你看要怎麼處理 再處理大家辛苦了好 現在繞了一圈好 最後又回來念一下大體上都OK啦我們審議會的人數我們就按照這個願滿草案也是張宏祿委員的修正動議來處理啦我們就是11人到25人我們就看大小授權行政機關來做彈性調整但是因為原住民區本來就應該要有特殊處理所以剛剛經過協商結果就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8749.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8777.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
因為前面又有什麼部落代表等等的一些名詞嘛所以到最後修正變成涉及原住民族地區者原住民族專家學者及當地部落代表不得少於總數三分之一就這樣那我剛講說把這個審議會的公開透明寫在這個條文裡面所以把各級主管機關與第一項審議會會議結束30日內與機關網站公開會議資料及記錄其他就照修正動議好不好我們把它變成委員會修正動議修正的版本通過大家OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8778.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8792.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好謝謝最後這個公佈日這我們希望四個執法嘛我們剛剛其實有加一些條件對不對我們希望有日出條款那時候請內政部回去思考一下內政部有沒有明確的想法好謝謝主席那這個公佈日施行這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8801.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8817.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我们是建议那个因为我后续还有好多执法要做配合订定公展啊公听民调审议会议作业程序适应系者那是不是可以允议就明年7月1号可以吗因为给我一点作业时间因为我还要预告啊还有要征求意见等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8818.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8832.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
今年7月1號 明確一點嘛因為本來是修正統計師講說授權我們也怕沒完沒了那我講公佈日好像對行政他對內政部有點殘忍是這樣好通常體力上1月1號跟7月1號都是正令宣導的好時機嘛好不好 本期覺得OK |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8838.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8862.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
沒有意見但我是不是跟大家報告一下還是由行政院定之那我們立法說明裡面寫7月1號不是法令裡面直接講幾月幾號的好像比較少吧可以啦 日出條款都有這樣寫比較少啦比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8866.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8872.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
對啦如果是母法你說這樣比較少啦立法說明裡面寫7月1號就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8875.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8896.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
對 我怕立法說你沒有拘束力啦我是擔心這件事來 李博一委員如果我們在一起開會然後立法說你裡面寫7月1號他還不要照7月1號這才奇怪了啦我覺得可以參考而且明年7月1號我覺得也是可以同意因為明年是選舉年嘛你也不會遇到相關的選制或者是選區的這些問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8898.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8923.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那也跟你們一點點充裕一點的時間六個月包含要公展執法確實剛好修好你可能就要趕著上路我覺得有一點急迫性所以我是同意7月1號寫在這個立法說明裡面 謝謝我覺得還是把它訂好要不然如果用一年一年內嘛還是怎麼樣 一年公佈一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8928.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8947.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們都已經走到這裡了最後一條保熱協商實在太殘忍了所以對啦 我覺得要嘛就把日期寫出來我完全支持牛昭偉你的看法只是說在訂法令裡面很少這樣子寫啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8949.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8972.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我覺得我們都有這個大家都要這樣我們都已經決定要這樣了用附帶決議我覺得這來處理我們母法把它訂的漂亮一點啦不然這個法律訂了之後是一輩子喔他還在啊 超過一輩子好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8976.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
9000.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我是覺得還是要寫我覺得我們不要在這個題目上在那個來內政部你想一下我們有沒有折衷的方法來我那幾個執法要修當然說我可以盡量趕但是如果允儀在那個行政作業上有沒有機會說還是行政院定制然後這邊用附帶決議就是希望我在什麼時候把它做完這樣我也比較好代表畢竟我代表內政部我也不能代表行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
9002.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
9024.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那萬一到最後出來然後到最後又理由很多自在難言怎麼辦呢我們就擔心這個事嘛因為附帶決也沒有拘束力沒有強制力啊對不對我是覺得這比較麻煩一點啊還好吧因為雙方雙方都有共識啊大家都有共識啦你要不要這段用麥克風講一下列入紀錄他不敢他沒有我們都幫你都挺你幫你罵他他如果沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
9037.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
9061.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我建議列到負債決議啦一樣有行政院定制啦反正我是目標就是7月1號嘛欸 好不好你負債決議你已經下來了你看我們民進黨有罵我嗎拜託啊我就希望說你們剛剛私底下都可以把他列入紀錄啊說你們要一起訂他這樣哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
9064.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
9085.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
好那就簽吧好不好我們用附帶決議花一點點時間來寫因為我們好不容易有一部法案可以非常理性從頭到尾而且順利的每一個條件都打成共識也算是蠻不錯的好不好就這樣就115年7月1號我們要看到詳細的包含一些宣導上路等等讓這個延宕三十幾年的法案終於有一定的成果好那我們就寫一下附帶決議吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
9090.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
9108.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那在寫剛剛那個施行日期的附帶決議的時候我們先處理 手邊的這個高進委員提出來的附帶決議大家看一下 行政委員有沒有意見內政部有沒有意見 來這邊 這個這個對啊 以右手上這個 對你先看一看這裡放進來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
9122.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9123.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
對 先看一下嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9144.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9156.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那個跟主席跟委員我確認一下我們在張宏隆委員版本的第五條裡面不是已經加進來了嗎把族群特性跟人文歷史脈絡因為這邊是族群特性跟人文歷史脈絡這些已經放進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9159.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9185.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那原住民的話那這樣要怎麼修對啦 所以我就我是附帶決議讓他講得更清楚一點啦就是說行政區對 附帶決議可以鬆口氣未來實際在畫社行政區要考量族群特性及人文歷史脈絡還有政治經濟我把它寫得比較完整一點因為你們說在法裡面不要寫得那麼多嘛所以呢我就把一些我們的概念在附帶決議裡面比較完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9189.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9193.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
對 附帶決議應該沒問題謝謝委員 謝謝好 那這個附帶決議我們就照樣通過OK嗎好 謝謝那我們等一下剛剛有關於施行日期的附帶決議對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9215.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9222.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
對 那個高金委員那個行政區劃程序法我修一下 OK啦 這個沒有問題啦好 那就照文字修正通過 OK嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9242.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9244.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
程序法啦 我們會討論是過程序法對 這沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9279.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9283.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
哎哎 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9296.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9307.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
謝謝大家收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9330.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9332.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
成功 成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9379.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9382.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9427.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9452.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好 終於千呼萬喚念一下附帶決議第二個附帶決議行政區劃法自公佈後行政院應於中華民國115年7月1日前實施內政部應盡速嚴定相關執法並每三個月將嚴定進度含之立法院內政委員會好不好 過程中我們也可以監督進度確保事情順利請問這樣我們照附帶決議照案通過可以嗎好 謝謝大家畫押 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9464.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9467.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
可以在這邊宣讀嗎可以齁沒關係我們還是上來就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9508.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9522.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝大家的充分討論 理性討論那我們現在宣讀協商結論 請宣讀法案名稱第三條 第四條 第十條 第十二至十六條 第十九條趙委員 張宏祿等人修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9525 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9552.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
第一條 第二條 第十七條 第十八條 照委員劉許廷等人 委員邱振軍等人提案委員張宏祿等人修正動議通過第五條至第九條 第十一條 照委員會審查條文修正通過委員劉許廷等提案 委員邱振軍等提案第四條不予採納委員劉許廷等提案第十二條不予採納通過附帶決議兩項 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9556.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9574.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
謝謝 請問各位委員 照剛剛協商結論通過 請問有無異議無異議通過 謝謝 我們做以下決議討論四項 行政缺乏法草案等兩案以並案審查完據 拟據審查報告提報 願會討論通通達成共識 請問在場委員 還需不需要經過黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9576.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9597.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝謝本案與院會討論時由本席牛召集委員許廷做補充說明審查通過這條文條次引述條文部分文字及相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本次修正這條文行政機關如有補充立法說明會後請盡速送至內政委員會比例納入審查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9598.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9609.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
好現在第一階段結束跟我們行政企劃法有關的列席單位人員可以先行離席我們休息五分鐘換場接下來進行住宅法的逐條審查現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9625.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9626.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9668.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9676.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好囉來 請確定喔意識一下啦未來第五條就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9696.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9696.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
謝謝真的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9737.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9744.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
新大典系列 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9749.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9775.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
對 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9776.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9792.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9817.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9826.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
阿嬤在那謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9845.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9853.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9873.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9888.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
右邊那邊的房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9895.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9918.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們一九月一號簽了他的單元當時我們熊子沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9920.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9920.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9937.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9964.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
先把那個前進小組補進去的那份還有以後的需求能不能拿出然後再做那個減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9976.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9986.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
10030.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
10031.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
連零都被我們搞壞了 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
10032.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
10054.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好各位辛苦了報告委員會我們繼續開會那個住宅法修正之條文上次會議我們已經進行大體討論針對大體討論所涉議題啊財政部內政部分別於6月30號7月5號8月11號函送說明資料與本會委員那報告委員會我們現在先宣讀兩個新增提案條文以及相關的修正動議跟附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後進行協商請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
10058.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
10086.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
第四條委員蘇清泉等18人提案第一項重厚端修正為提供50%比率出租與育有未成年子女之家庭另提供一定比率為涉及於當地且在該地區就學就業有居住需求者第二項第三款修正為育有未成年子女其餘同線型條文委員許智傑等42人提案第一項40%修正為50%第二項第三款修正為育有未成年子女其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
10087.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
10106.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
修正動議第二條第四項修正為中央主管機關及中央原住民族主管機關應是原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要會同直轄市縣市主管機關興辦投資或獎勵民間興辦專攻或一定比例以上為原住民成租之社會住宅 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
10106.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
10132.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
第五項第六項之目的事業主管機關修正為中央援助民族主管機關第六項前段之主管機關修正為中央主管機關其餘同委員高金素美等提案提案人委員高金素美等四人修正動議二第四條第一項後段修正為另提供一定比率為涉及於當地且在該地區就學就業青年婚育家庭有居住需求者 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
10133.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
10162.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
其餘同現行條文提案人為王美惠等5人修正動議3第4條第一項修正為主管機關及民間新辦之社會住宅應以直轄市縣市轄區為計算範圍提供至少40%以上比率出租與經濟或社會弱勢者提供至少15%比率出租與育有未成年子女之家庭另提供一定比率與未涉及於當地且在該地區就學就業有居住需求者 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
10163.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
10175.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
第三項修正為第一項育有未成年子女之家庭以未成年子女人數較多者先予承諸其辦法由主管機關定之提案人為牛許廷等二十人宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
10178.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
10201.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
還有附帶決議附帶決議住宅法105年修法時期強調原住民族應有充分參與社會住宅規劃與設計並尊重其文化與生活形態然而實務上專攻原住民族成都的社會住宅推動困難且多數族人並不執著於專用性反而傾向圓漢混居以促進理解共融與文化交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
10201.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
10222.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
因此未務實回應原住民族的居住需求本次修法後原民會應與主管機關協商規劃以參見方式換取提高一定比例原住民可承租戶數的方式創造原民可負擔可選擇且具文化尊重的居住選項提案人文高金素美等三人宣誓完畢好謝謝我們現在進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
10230.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
10230.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這張畫面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
10247.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
10261.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我跟委員會報告大部法案的修正版本非常非常的多那我們就盡量能走到哪裡是哪裡好不好其實如果大家有把各個委員的提案版本大概做過閱讀大家可以知道大概比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
10262.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
10288.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
市社比較大的大概一個是社會住宅的入住資格的調整吧這是在第四條相關的一些條文那再來還有土地儲備機制這是在比較後面19條 21條等等還有跟租屋市場透明的相關的一些條文大概是這次法案修正比較大的三個重點那我們考量時間的關係我們今天原則上先處理社會住宅的入住資格好 我們到這個地方那我們還是要因為是逐條協商嘛我們還是一條一條來跑好 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
10292.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
10318.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
第一條 這個是林月琴委員的提案各位委員 我徵詢一下大家的意見我們是不是沒有在場的委員我們就不予處理還是說民進黨要用代表的方式來處理我徵詢一下大家的意見主席 我們這裡以前的規定傳統這樣 好不好這樣比較公平好 謝謝那如果沒有找到代理的委員那我們就不予處理好不好好 第一條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
10322.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
10343.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
嚴格一點好那第一條因為委員不在場我們就不予處理第二條高金樹美委員剛剛有講他改成附帶決議啦他已經跟行政單位先行溝通那我們就不予處理再來第四條那我們就針對第四條好好來討論一下李柏毅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
10350.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
10368.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我跟各位委員說明一下我的提案我是增列第四條之一原本是沒有第四條之一我們的第四條主要是在講社會住宅大概有百分之多少的這些包含我們這些下面這些身分的認定可以入住社會住宅 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
10369.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
10397.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那裡面也有相關的目前現行的版本是40%那裡面也有相關提出50%或者是要增訂哪一些身份可以進入這個可以進入社會住宅但是我是想要幫地方政府來提出一個因為都市在快速的成長那需要完整的安置配套尤其是面臨區段徵收市地重劃都市更新等這些案例那通常 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
10398.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
10418.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
还是会有一些漏掉的居民原居民他没有办法有居住正义那我举我的选区后就是旧左宗跟幼长宿舍那还有从十星村为例附近相关的社会住宅已经开始建构一定有基础有一定基础的这些数量但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
10420.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
10446.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
还是有相关的居民他没有办法入住他原本居住的环境里面所以我针对原住宅遭征收或拆除而且因应政策变迁导致原定的补偿跟安置方案无法落实的住户主管机关应提供社会住宅予以安置且不受住宅法第4条第二项家庭总收入的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
10448.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
10474.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個立法的這個提案的目的主要是這個地方都是更新了但是樣貌雖然變了但是原本居住的人他還可以住在那裡它是一個活文化它也是一個情感但是我還是要增訂為了防止不當利益交換如果核定入住者的資格不得轉讓繼承確保公共資源可以最大化以上我的提案說明給各位參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
10475.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
10501.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
好謝謝李博議員我們請蘇巧慧委員然後黃介濤委員好謝謝主席我這邊的話呢是在第四條裡面呢其實我增加了一個第八款那所以後面的條款項的號次也有變動但其實我就是只有增加第八款也就是欲有未成年身心障礙者一人以上那也可以成為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10502.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10519.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
入住的資格之一那為什麼是這樣我想大家我看到很多委員也都有提出相同的這個的版本就是我們是從實際上的陳情案來的我們有子女未成年子女兩人以上是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10519.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10534.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
然後呢身心障礙者在第七項也是可以的可是這沒有講就表示他是成年人所以如果你是只有一個小孩但偏偏剛好他是未成年他是身心障礙者那這樣到底能不能符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10535.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10560.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
第七款呢其實顯然這就是一個漏洞所以我們在這裡有增列了這個好那以上是我對我自己版本的說明但是我也想要確認一下就是說因為我們這麼多的版本喔所以等一下是不是可以請內政部他們應該有做過你們應該有做過整理的嘛所以我們要用哪一個版本然後直接來對照哪些是你們已經看過了可以收納進去的那我們這樣討論起來會不會比較快一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10563.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10585.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
請黃建豪委員然後徐益臻委員然後王美惠委員好謝謝召委我提的也是第4條因為我想第4條主要在定義說就是在原條文裡面線型條文裡面是說50%以上的比例出租給這個經濟或社會弱勢者那裡面有各項的資格那我針對的其實是資格是部分是針對所謂的育有未成年子女的部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10586.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10609.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
过去我们把这个育儿未成年子女定在所谓的弱势的资格里面我想这个育儿未成年子女跟弱势我觉得定义上不太一致所以我想说把这个未成年子女育儿未成年子女把它独立出来那往这个程度上某种程度上也符合内政部之前提到想要做婚姻宅这种构想所以第一个是把这个育儿未成年子女部分提出来之外还有定义他的年龄比如说 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10610.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10627.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
育有未满12岁子女的家庭一位就可以来优先的来入住社会住宅我想这也是希望鼓励说现在的这个年轻的新手爸妈他们能够能够摒除掉这个经济条件的问题因为其实我想现在很多人不生小孩在很多原因上第一个就是真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10628.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10642.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
有錢房子跟孩子只能選一個就是說那個房子跟孩子的衝突是心得蠻強的如果能夠幫他解決房子的問題或許有機會讓他能夠在小朋友成長的時候他能夠有個比較穩定的這個居住的住所因為現行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10643.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10666.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
法規來講因為長期來講會想解決問題就是說我們現在只能做住3加3年了那等於說他進到國小以後他的這個居住的問題還是會成為他的這個家庭的很大的一個負擔所以說我想把這個未成年子女部分把它明確定在欲有未滿12歲子女的家庭當然放心是這個條件裡面那也不要去占用到所謂弱勢的這一部分以上謝謝好謝謝區域政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10670.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10693.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
謝謝昭緯本期所提出來的版本就有關第4條的部分主要是因為我國的房價現在持續的飆升從111年到113年漲幅已經超過三成而且同時112年全年的實質總薪資也呈現了負成長所以針對這個部分為了落實社會住宅的居住正義功能我覺得應該要將提高分配給 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10694.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10716.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這個經濟或社會弱勢的比例因此將現行規定的至少40%提高到50%以強化對弱勢族群居住權益的保障那另外面對少子化這個日趨嚴峻所以我們有近五成的民眾表示不願意生育顯示育兒身份已經成為家庭重大的壓力之一所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10716.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10743.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
為了這個減輕育兒家庭的居住負擔還有配合行政院已經推動核定的300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案的計畫其精神為凡育有未成年子女者即可申請補助那修正現行條文中的育有未成年子女二人以上為育有未成年子女讓更多有育兒需求的家庭能夠實際的受益謝謝好 請王美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10745.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10763.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
主席 謝謝在這裏 我們第四條裏面本席也有修案但是在這裏面 我覺得有不足的所在所以我今天有修正動議裏面加一個青年婚姻家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10765.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10788.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這就是要減輕我們未來的孩子生孩子的負擔在第一項的時候 我覺得應該是加入這個給居住協助特定的對象給年輕人可以給孩子減輕他們的負擔因為這段時間你一直看年輕人不夠生 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10793.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10809.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我想說 要寫 要打一個合適的所在是不是我們政府可以如果都有協助可以在本縣所修正 動議來賓聽出我們有什麼意見是不是可以納入以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10815.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10839.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好 謝謝王美惠委員我也跟大家說明一下我們有針對黃建豪委員的第四條條文也有提出修正動議大家桌上應該有因為這個題目是這樣子啦就是說大部分委員提案的版本都是希望說社會住宅也有一部分鼓勵生育的功能解決少子化危機嘛因為年輕世代基本上因為高房價就影響婚姻意願它其實是一個嚴重的社會問題所以很多人都希望說把 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10840.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10860.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個子女的部分作為放寬那我們前面有跟公民團體或者跟內政部這邊來做溝通的時候他的關鍵其實在於就是說因為現在現行社會住宅的資格大概分兩塊一塊叫做所謂的弱勢戶或者是政策戶也就是這40%現行條文40%保障的部分另外一個60%是所謂的一般戶那如果我們現在要按照大部分委員的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10862.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10872.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
修正的版本都是把只要有小孩我就把他納入所謂的弱勢戶那他有可能會排擠到真正需要的人這是一個問題需要被解決所以我們後來討論我們自己黨團裡面來做討論的時候是說要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10877.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10899.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這件事情納入考量但是你要用的缺不應該用弱勢的缺而是用一般戶的缺所以說我們後來提的修正東西的版本是這樣子的大家參考一下也就是提供40%以上比率出租於經濟與社會弱勢者這維持不變也就是我至少都還有40%是所謂弱勢戶然後我寫提供至少15%比率出租於育有未成年子女之家庭也就是任何有小孩的都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10899.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10926.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
另外再獨立出一個類別它就是婚育宅這樣子的一個概念那麼剩下就是所謂的一般戶這是我們最後黨團整合的修正動議的版本那跟美會委員的版本剛剛是講說婚育家庭也就是說是不是要把結婚這件事情直接納入讓居住先買房再結婚這種壓力先稍微減輕一點至少有個穩定的地方可以住促進結婚的意願然後也促進生育的意願我覺得這方向也非常好好不好那現在有這幾個方向我們聽一聽內政部的意見然後我們做一下討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10927.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10936.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那內政部也要特別回應一下因為李柏毅委員的四字一條他是針對安置戶碼 搬遷等等的一個狀況那法療修正上怎麼來做處理它是一個比較適合的狀況我們請內政部同意回答吳次長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10942.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10968.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好 謝謝主席那我是不是先看那個修正動議那個好 就剛剛有談到就是是不是要提供那個15%給育兒未成年之女的部分那這邊也簡單跟委員報告因為我們現在目前我們依照我們住入中心目前在做這個目前的一個受理民眾來申請租的部分就是一般戶還有弱勢戶的時候其實我們都是三年一租 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10969.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10996.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那其實如果說第一個還要把它再從那個一般戶裡面再去劃15去來給所謂育有未成年子女那其實還是會有一些排擠的效果那另外我們就是我們這個三年一租裡面其實裡面目前40%給這個弱勢戶跟弱勢戶的部分跟一般戶都是定有租約如果這邊要做的話其實應該也是要逐年去做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10997.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
11022.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我想這個大概我是先就這個部分給大家參考一下另外一個就是那個剛剛李博議員有談到那個因為被徵收拆遷這個把它放進來這個部分我先簡單講一下我的看法啦那因為有些是徵收可能是區段徵收或者是試劇重畫或者一般徵收那確實在實際上的部分那這邊如果要再提供畫色的話我政府還要另外再找地那重畫區段可能還有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
11023.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
11040.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那崇化區段我們現在都是用那個所謂他取得的可建築土地或者是底廢地去提供一定的%做社會住宅那這個部分目前各縣政府大概都有這樣來做操作然後如果說要讓他再去做申請做入住相關的社會住宅的部分大概會有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
11042.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
11064.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
可能會有一點重複的概念因為不管是徵收其實它是一個對價補償居然徵收領有土地了他領回去了那對於這個裡面可能是有合法原本居住的合法工廠的那這個都另有安置跟處理那我比較會建議這一條的部分其實應該還要再多討論看看多討論看看那其實我們實務上在地方政府其實他們都會有預留 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
11067.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
11091.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
好 請問各位委員好 李博義委員然後待會兒黃婕委員各位委員 次長所以故事會很多啦剛剛次長你講的就是說因為這裡地方要做區亂徵收所以它可能拿到補償了所以我們區亂徵收有空間來來蓋一個社會住宅我講的不是喔我講的是可能就是區亂徵收的旁邊已經有社會住宅了 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
11092.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
11108.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
政要申請了那這個政府的公共政策要不要繼續要不要繼續牽涉到這裡的居民有沒有辦法安置這裡的居民有沒有看到未來有沒有看到希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
11109.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
11130.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
或者是我的選區也有就在重拾現在目前的重拾安居重拾安居怎麼來的重拾安居是從眷改來的眷改後面還有一大片未來要做區段徵收的眷改還有相關很多的這一些我講的退役的老兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
11131.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
11145.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這些人不是活文化嗎這些人在重拾安居這些人繼續住在這裡就是一個重拾的情感啊我們整個區段徵收以後那這個地方有沒有過去的這些故事就是要靠這些人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
11146.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
11174.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那所以其實這段時間我們也不斷的跟住都中心也不斷的跟內政部來做這一個相關的這些溝通那另外我的選區還有一個中游的宿舍中游宿舍你沒有讓他看到一個未來那他們永遠永遠也沒有沒有辦法去做現況的改變那所以說市長講的先有區段徵收之後這個底廢地跟現有的社會住宅他已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
11175.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
11193.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
已經可能即將招租了又或者是可能這一年內兩年內即將有了但是附近的這些公共建設的這些推動能不能順利其實要靠這一條讓附近的這些人看到這個希望啦那所以說市長想的 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
11194.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
11214.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
故事還會很多我光舉我的選區故事就已經講不完了所以說希望還是嚴正大家可以比較嚴肅的來討論這一題當然我對於如果申請到社會住宅的這些原住民我稱之為原本住在那裡的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
11215.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
11238.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那他如果得到這個認定標準他受到安置了對於他的最長的安置的年限其實我們也可以授權地方政府跟內政部來做一個協調以上做這些說明那再請內政部做相關比較細一點的去討論我都可以開放這些相關的討論謝謝好謝謝我們請黃婕維園然後黃建豪委員然後蔓玉珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
11239.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
11268.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好謝謝那我的疑問是我們現在是要以這個就是有許多國民黨委員簽的這個修正動議為版本來討論嗎還是說我們現在主條文是要看哪一個因為這樣大家才可以參照然後說要什麼要加進去我報告一下現在因為各個方向不太一樣現在我們都可以因為修正動議的位階是一樣的就大概看美國委員的修正動議然後看我們國民黨團這邊的一個修正動議原則上看這兩版為主啦因為修正動議先處理好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11268.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11296.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 那我的第一个意见是因为其实刚刚乔惠委员提的那个建议非常好因为我有遇到类似的案子所以我会希望如果要提的话把乔惠委员版本里面的这个欲有未成年身心障碍者一人以上这个身份别的条件可以放宽并且明确的放进去如果要放进修正中医的话希望这一条可以加再来美惠委员的这个版本里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11297.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11314.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
婚育宅的概念其實跟剛剛這個國民黨委員裡面的這個15%以上未成年子女家庭的概念是差不多的那這個我想要請內政部說明的是如果你們認為15%的未成年子女的家庭會排擠掉其他的身分別 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11315.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11337.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那你們有什麼方式來保障這一些其實也是內政部目前在主推的這個方向就是婚育宅的這些家庭其實是你們現在在推的嘛既然你們都說是社會住宅目前很重要的對象這樣的TA你們說沒有辦法放進去那你們要提其他的版本其他的建議啊可不可以給我們明確的文字跟版本好 謝謝我們請黃建豪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11341.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11360.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好谢谢赵伟其实我要回应一下内政部刚刚的说明就是今天我们提这个第四条修正包含这个未成年子女部分某种程度上这个版本很早提出来那刚好你们内政部经理要讲婚育宅部分那其实这个精神我觉得是跟婚育宅的精神是一致的因为你们在当初的缩帖里面也讲说要提供给 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11361.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11382.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這種婚姻的子女或甚至是不一定有有小孩就好了嘛就是能夠放進這個優先的比例裡面那如果今天我們把它定15%你們覺得太高那多少你們覺得合理因為我覺得是說至少你要保障這一部分的人他們有優先入住權嘛因為現在你是把它混在所謂的40%的弱勢裡面但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11383.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11411.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
有小孩跟弱勢我覺得是分開處理的這兩個不同的概念不同的層級所以有小孩這件事情如果要把它放在婚姻宅的概念裡面我們把它放在住宅法第四條裡面能夠只要有小孩那他有一定的比例能夠優先的入住保障他入住的權益我想這個排擠我不太知道說內政部認為排擠會排到誰因為我們還是我講了嘛我們還是保障40%在原有的弱勢條件裡面40%是不影響的是另外我新增一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11412.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11435.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
名稱新增一個項目是因為有小孩所以讓你有一些入住權那剩餘的其他的可能是因為就學因為就業那個是現行本來就在租屋市場裡面競爭的關係嘛那個不是國家一定要特別保障的部分吧如果我們國家今天特別要保障的是弱勢要特別保障大家鼓勵大家生小孩那這應該是社會住宅政策應該要做的事情以上謝謝謝謝我們麥醫生委員然後蘇曉慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11441.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11450.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
謝謝主席我們針對就是肉市比例還有育兒的條件我們希望是就近期房價就是飆漲21.4%所以租金指標也是10.634% |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11458.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11482.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以弱勢租屋的負擔也負擔得重啦所以生意率也0.87%已成為國安的危機了所以我們堅持住宅50%租給就是低收入戶 身心障礙者或這些弱勢還要讓有小孩的家庭不限小孩的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11485.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11491.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
的數多少都可以申請這樣的話年輕人養小孩還有就是壓力就減少一點大家也比較想要再升符合行政院就是300億租金補貼的精神內政部說40%夠但是弱勢中的就是抽籤真的機率比較低啦所以修法生就是能 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11514.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11523.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
就是廣大一些的這是弱勢族群的保障所以我們的民眾黨這邊的主張希望大家就是支持就不要分的因為我們條文裡面都有去分了所以我們還要去分得更細這樣的話是不是說審查單位來去審我們就是全部就是50%關於這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11540.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11542.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
一個一個族群來來去去分就好我的我們的主張是這樣以上謝謝謝謝請蘇曉慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11551.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11578.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 谢谢主席我想要表示的意见有两个一个是程序上面的然后一个是实质内容上面我先说程序的部分我们今天刚刚如果大家有共识是说以现在此刻坐在这里的人来讨论那这样的版本那我们是不是虽然我们现在看起来这个大概有多少版本第4条有快20个版本吧大概那一大本里面大概有一半是第4条 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11579.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11593.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對有一半是第四條那這樣的話我們是不是應該有此刻的狀態就先把不在場的委員的版本就可能就是擱置了同意啊這第一個第二個國民黨委員的版本照剛剛昭偉您的意見是你們已經經過黨團討論濃縮成您那是不是其他國民黨委員的也都就先擱置我沒有擱置這樣來說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11605.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11619.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
好那这样的话理论上版本就会剩比较少一些那内政部你们的意见是什么样状况针对在场的这几个人其实他们的意见大概也就几个比如说我们那个育儿未成年身心障碍者子女一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11620.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11640.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
这是不是可以就直接讨论好那这样征点就会变少了那我刚刚看到内政部提供一份给所有委员在场委员的资料当中就是这个非盈利司法人呈租转租社会住宅情形及社会住宅弱势户重签率分析说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11641.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11667.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那我觉得大家也许可以参考一下他这份文件的第三页他其实把这个我们的全国社会住宅一般户和弱势户的申请中签率有写得很清楚尤其是六都六个直辖市其实都有写出来那我想表达一下我的立场第一我也赞成这个青年婚育 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11669.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11694.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
婚育青年因为要抚养小孩所以他们可以再增加机会来去取得这个社会住宅的入住资格好这个方向我们可以同意不过刚刚大家在讲说会排挤到谁其实可以看一下我们在这里有高雄委员台中的委员新北的委员大家可以看一下嘛像我们新北一般户现在的中签率只有10% |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11696.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11719.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那弱势户也只有15%那所以弱势户确实已经比一般户高一些了那我们现在如果再调整这个比率的话就是也有可能我们的一般户会比10更少好我们如果来看台中的话台中现在的一般户的入住率中签率只有16而已哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11720.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11739.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那您这样子的状况桃园好像好一点点这样子的状况所以我们现在要调整条文其实不是只是看条文然后大家在这边写一写然后数字喊一喊好像有增加就马上可以解决生育率的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11740.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11766.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我觉得我们赞成这个方向但到底要调到什么程度我现在这一轮的发言我也没有定论啊我也没有说我就天重英明我知道应该要调到多少趴但我觉得大家可以再参考一下现在的中签率到底是多少所以大家也可以在心中衡量一下所谓的排挤那排挤的程度大家觉得这样是否合理大家可以参考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11767.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11792.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
好 謝謝我們還有委員補充意見嗎張宏祿召委這個版本太多了其實內政部你們有沒有一個你們的想法或什麼的你要跟所有委員說一下不然我覺得你再討論這一條你討論個三天三夜也不會有結果這一條大概就是整本裡面會討論最久的一條所以我們總要開始好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11793.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11818.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
不不不對但我我這邊說內政部內政部要有要有說法嗎對啊至至少有給給個方向不然現在就會變成大家各說各的了嗯沒關係我們第一輪就是讓大家因為很多是提案委員嘛好總是把那個方向做一下說明那當然在討論過程中我們就希望能夠整合意見嘛其實就是不外乎如此來吧內政部今天國土署署長因為調度救災他前面事情有請假那我們包含祖密什麼都可以做補充好請吳次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11819.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11843.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好 那个我先讲那个婚姻宅等一下其他委员的部分我再麻烦我们主秘来简单说一下我想我们这一次针对我国的少子女化的对策里面我们这个婚姻宅我们的想法是说去推动然后去让减轻国人去养育幼儿的负担所以我们会建议说第四条里面把青年婚姻的家庭这个有居住需求把它放进来 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11844.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11858.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
至于这个是不是属于经济跟社会弱势的部分其实我们比较倾向是应该是说经济社会弱势还是要先优先保障就是照这个原本的内容的部分至于如果说要把婚姻宅放进来的时候我们觉得因为反正就100% |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11859.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11885.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
要么就是调40要么就是调50但是一定会挤压到一般户的部分那这个东西我认为还是要循序渐进的方式来处理也就是我刚刚跟大家报告就是三年一租那如果这个调整之后也是适用往后来去做一个试用那再来就是说我们的想法就是说这婚姻宅的部分的那个比例可能大概会动到5%到8%左右大概在这个扣打里面但是这个扣打里面是不是去 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11886.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11914.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
去擠壓到所謂的經濟社會弱勢戶我覺得應該不是應該是會從另外那個60%裡面去做一個微調就是放到一般戶裡面去做微調我想這個大概是我們的一個初步的想法再來就是剛剛委員還有談到一些是不是要一人可以納入的部分是育有未成年兩年以上這個再做個調整一年以上我覺得這個可以討論這個一樣都可以討論因為我們現在大家也知道我們全國年的出生率 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11915.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11944.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
一个家庭其实生不到一个小孩如果是两个以上的话当然是最好但是如果是一人以上这个我是觉得可以讨论另外我是不是请祖密就刚刚其他比较细项的部分来做说明来 欧祖密有请谢谢 谢谢各位委员刚刚所提的部分我想我们先把一个整个架构大概跟大家委员做个说明就是说我们目前刚刚委员特别有提到会有两块一块就是要提高我们弱势的一个比率第二块就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11950.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11969.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
民眾黨講要調整50%有一個50%剛剛提到的部分有委員都在我想說我講的是一個架構的部分第二塊就是在講我們在目前的弱勢裡面我們要加兩個部分第一個就是要育有未成年子女的這個部分要加入弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11969.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11992.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
第二塊就是我們蘇委員這邊所提到的對於這一個身障的這個未成年弱勢的這一塊的部分要不要再加進來那這整體來講我想我們就整個弱勢的這個身分上面的一個部分剛剛所提到的育有未成年子女剛剛次長也特別提到育有未成年子女的這邊的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11993.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
12012.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
有一個數字給委員大家做個參考在我們去年7月份有一個統計就是說育有子女兩人以上的部分大概目前大概96.3萬戶如果以委員現在所建議的就是只要育有子女未成年子女一人以上的部分就會提高到213萬的這樣的一個戶數 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
12016.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
12026.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
原本是96.3萬 兩人以上的戶數但是如果你現在把它變成只要育有未成年子女一人以上的部分就會達到213萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
12029.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
12057.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
对 所以这件事情就变成说如果你要把它放到我们现在的弱势里面来处理的时候就会变成我们刚刚一直在强调说会让这一个育儿未成年子女的这一块就被排挤到其他我们所列的那12项的弱势的这个部分所以我们对这一块其实刚刚赛友特别提到这一块我们是持一个比较保留的态度那第二个部分就是苏委员这边刚刚所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
12059.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
12073.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
就是我們如果在家庭裡面如果育有一個所謂的育有身障者的未成年子女這件事情其實我會覺得說雖然在我們的弱勢裡面已經有一個身障的弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
12074.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
12096.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
但是這個部分其實我們是可以來思考一下看能不能把它再做一個處理這件事是可以討論的就是在我們的育幼未成年子女的這個部分裡面只要他只要是身障的部分實際上他是不是就可以把它當作是我們現在所稱的弱勢的一個身分那這部分我想是可以來做考慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
12096.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
12114.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我想第二個重點就會在講大家委員都很關切一些事情就是我們講少子化跟這一個要增加婚育的這件事情的一個主張這部分的話其實我們這一次我們主要的想法是說我們希望把我們講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
12116.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
12130.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
促進這個少子化這一塊怎麼樣讓它增加未來的生育的一個狀況我們希望從結婚開始就來增加它的一個來承租 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
12131.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
12149.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
社宅的一样的一个比率所以刚刚次长特别提到的我们希望能够在60%我们不要占到弱势的这个额度我们把它放到60%里面的这个额度里面来我们从结婚就来鼓励它进驻到社宅里面而不是说它 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
12149.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
12165.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
擁有一個未成年子女而是她從她結婚我就進到社宅裡面我希望她進入社宅能夠去生小孩能夠小孩子生了更多這樣的概念我們來置入那置入的部分我們希望能夠在 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
12166.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
12184.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
費洛斯的那60%來加一定的比率那在我們原先我們的住宅法的這個裡面其實就已經有提到提供一定比率的部分在未有涉及在外面就學就業的部分已經有這樣的規定了我們未來我們是希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
12185.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
12205.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
把這個青年婚育家庭的這個部分能夠放到這裡面來也是提供一定比率來提供給婚育家庭來做成豬那我們所定義的婚育家庭它大致上是這樣就是兩年內結婚的部分還沒有小孩這個是結婚的部分第二個就是說你已經有小孩而且是 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
12206.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12224.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
是所謂的在6歲以下的部分那就是說學齡前的這樣的部分那就是我們這邊所提到的婚育家庭的一個概念我們希望把這樣的部分放到那60%裡面提供一定的比率的方式來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12226.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12248.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這樣的話或許在剛剛所提到的這些內容上面其實是比較能夠來符合我們目前在社宅的一個政策上面還有包括我們弱勢的比例我們還希望能夠維持在40%的這樣一個概念底下讓我們少子化的問題未來能夠得到一些解決 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12248.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12268.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
好 我說明一下剛剛綜合吳市長歐祖密的說法第一 就是婚姻的部分同意放入對不對第二 希望分流處理嘛就不希望跟本來的社會弱勢搞在一起對不對第三 希望有一個適用時間對不對 因為你現在還有租約你要走完那我們看後面的法條怎麼來做安排第四 你抓的比例大概是5%到8%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12269.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12290.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那如果是這幾個方向來講的話那其實用我們的修正動力來做文字上的調整應該是有機會達成共識的問一下大家的意見那當然我喬惠委員講的那個身心障礙我也支持在社會弱勢的部分來做一定的調整讓它可以更周延好不好我們現在有稍微往一點點比較有共識的方向來做前進還有沒有哪位委員要補充意見的嗎主席請 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12293.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12310.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我剛剛這樣聽起來的話內政部的意見是不是比較接近王美惠委員的版本因為王美惠委員的版本其實本來就是這個因為他動得很少他一共就只在第一項裡面加了青年婚育家庭幾個字嘛那這樣解釋起來其實就是那個弱勢戶的事實完全不動啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12312.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12327.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
对不对然后另提供一定比率然后余味涉及啊加了青年婚育家庭在这一块里面也就是在那个60%里面但又没有直接把数字写明插就插在这里没错 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12328.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12331.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
對 也就是說因為修法很麻煩所以它就是可以隨著政策或地區或什麼樣的狀況去調整因為可能全國也不一定是完全一樣比例或者是什麼這樣子的狀況所以我剛剛這樣聽起來的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12344.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12359.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
內政部的意見不曉得是否同意我的理解是不是你們的意見比較接近王美惠委員的版本因為如果是這樣的話那我們就幾乎可以用美惠委員的版本和牛委員的版本兩相對照來做比較下去討論會不會是這樣的狀況好 請薰一貞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12365.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12381.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
其實針對就是牛昭瑋這邊提出的修正動議的部分其實是跟剛剛我想跟歐祖密講的其實大致上是吻合只是現在在比例的問題然後我們也同意把婚姻宅的這個概念放進去鼓勵他們生育我想這個大家都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12382.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12402.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那現在就是說針對我們要不要在這個部分先要不要先針對於未成年子女的家庭提供多少百分比的比率或者是說另外提供一定比率這個部分來去做討論我想說前面那40%我們就是給予經濟跟社會弱勢這個是大家是同意的只是在於就是後面到底要提撥多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12402.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12419.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
不過現在看起來就是說前面的這個經濟的弱勢的部分我們總共有13項我不曉得說這樣子涵蓋的人數大概是多少不曉得這個內政部這邊有沒有統計因為你剛剛提到因為你剛剛提到的就是未成年一人的總共有2100 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12422.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12434.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
213萬戶了已經有213萬戶那會不會到時候那個比例的剛剛您講5到8%反而那個比例還比真正經濟弱勢戶的比例還要高所以我覺得這可能要統一併來去考慮好 謝謝好 請麥醫生委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12439.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12455.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
謝謝召委 因為針對對象的部分我們民眾黨在第10條裡面還要挑出來說弱勢優先 就是中低壓 就是這些優先所以剛才我們內政部這邊講的話很多就是生一個 再來放在裡面的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12462.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12479.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
就就会变成说我们在审查我们里面就会有挣扎第44条我们就是要优先虽然是说我们是生一个优先但是呢最优先的就是中低呀身心障碍呀低收这个才是我们选择后 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12479.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12487.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
再來去選擇就是年輕的是我們在第十條有強調這一塊所以這一塊是我們是在法條裡面我們是在這邊有強調這一塊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12495.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12497.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
裡面是沒有強調原來的法都沒有強調但是我們在第10條第40條這邊我們是有強調這一塊所以剛才照內政部這麼說的話是不是我們弱勢的選擇弱勢的家庭選擇我們就是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12513.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12523.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這樣子的優先有我們的年輕人的就是排就是第二個選擇還是怎麼樣比較比較合理就是再去幫助真正有需要弱勢的家庭這個就是我提供那是說可以再討論看要怎麼樣比較比較就是對大家最好謝謝謝謝蔓玉珍委員還有委員要補充嗎好 外媒會委員主席 在這裡我要讓我們內政的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12543.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12547.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
在這個問題每一個都為了弱勢的清楚跟剛才也說得很清楚因為我們這個弱勢的40%是把這個少子化膜送在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12557.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12564.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
他現在的意思是說少子化因為可能5%至8%而已我認為這可能有一點我們民意代表所想的跟他們想的落差太多我說是不是讓他們回應一下因為我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12581.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12586.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們取得說的 也要有實績做最主要說實在的 像他我自己去 又去得太久如果去得再多 你如果再趕快去那個差3%差5%來補救就補救會過了但是現在的負數 說實在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12604.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12615.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
不夠啦 所以在這裡也要 如果人家過來 趕快處理 趕快去啦不說說到後 後事不夠 說實在的你在那裡分15%分幾% 說實在的 蠻辛苦的若是團體也有一個地方好住跟我們政府中央的政策 也可以去設立一對白色 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12633.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12658.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好謝謝請黃建豪委員好謝謝召委我也認同王委員講的其實核心是蓋太少了不過因為我們不是新加坡算了就這個議題就算了今天我覺得還是要把聚焦一點因為後續就要討論我就要聚焦一下就是說我覺得弱勢40%這部分是不是建議大家就不要再動了因為這個40%我想也行之有年那弱勢的部分就是有這樣有這麼多民眾需要被保障所以40%不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12659.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12678.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
今天我们要处理的是所谓一般户里面要不要再分比例出来去做婚育宅的部分所以我们要去理解是说因为所谓弱势户里面本来他里面一定也有所谓的婚育的部分弱势里面他本来也有小孩子他们也有家庭的组成所以那部分他受到弱势户的保障已经有保障到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12678.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12702.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那今天讲的是一般户里面所以今天也需要可能要内政部给我们数据说一般户里面有多少是属于有家庭的户数来来抽的这个在一般户里面占多少那今天我们一般户比例里面又有多少可以分出来因为我们目前修正东西是指指说扣掉40%以后剩下60%拿其中15%出来做所谓婚姻宅 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12703.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12726.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那政府觉得这样的数字是太刁的话那想请问一下那到底我们的一般户的人口组成长怎么样因为如果人口组成本来就很多是属于婚育的部分那其实这条条文某种程度上更保障大家也是鼓励大家生小孩他并没有去排到其他人所以说今天婚育宅只有60%里面的婚育的人非常非常少都是单身的都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12728.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12751.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
顶客组在住那当然会对这些造成冲击那如果本来比例没有差这么多那反而这样子15%或是百分之多少的数字能够保障大家让大家更愿意为了可能为了可以解决住的问题他愿意生小孩甚至一个变两个等等的我觉得这才是这才是政府的政策上应该要鼓励的我想这也才符合内政部你们之前提的说你们要推婚育宅的精神以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12752.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12766.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
好謝謝我補充說明一下了我是覺得要推婚姻宅就要有明確的數字啊你才能知道有沒有達標然後後續的一些狀況但沒關係因為今天很多委員都有提出來說需要有更詳細的一個資料那我們請內政部再來詳加說明那我做個建議大家參考一下就因為現在看起來大家討論就是說原則上不動40%然後動一般戶但是到底要寫到多詳細大家還有一點點歧見那我們在意識上面的處理好我做個建議說我們就是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12779.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12792.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個我們針對黃建豪委員提的修正動議還有王美惠委員提的修正動議我們就這兩個版本來做保留那我們下次開會的時候我們就針對這兩個就來討論這樣我們第四條聚焦的速度就比較快好不好我用這樣的方式來處理請問大家同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12793.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12815.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好如果同意那我們今天就先到這裡因為我們本來就想要第四條要有一個共識那顯然因為逐條走嘛你第四條卡在這個地方那資料也不夠又沒辦法達成共識但已經凝聚了一定的共識好 那不然我們就先做這樣子的處理好不好如果大家同意那我們就來宣讀協商結論可以嗎可以好那我們宣讀協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12831.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12860.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好請宣讀協商結論第一條第二條不予處理維持原條文第四條委員劉許廷黃建豪等委員王美惠等修正動議保留其條另定期處理好請問委員剛剛趙剛協商結論通過請問有異議沒有好無異議通過那我們做以下決議討論四項所列住宅法修正條草案等事實案另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |