| IVOD_ID |
16849 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16849 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
23 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-06T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-06T17:24:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
08:54:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685dfacf003e82286709b5fa2f296a935346b3d2f3de1678a2113c15d20afbda32c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：（上午）
邀請衛生福利部部長、司法院、法務部、教育部、內政部警政署就「因應近期多起社會重大事件，檢討家庭暴力防治法民事保護令制度及執行缺失，強化保護令之作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
（下午1時30分）
一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二、繼續審查委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
三、繼續審查委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
四、繼續審查委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
五、繼續審查委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
六、繼續審查委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
七、繼續審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
八、繼續審查委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
九、繼續審查委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十、繼續審查委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十一、繼續審查委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十三、繼續審查委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十四、繼續審查委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十五、繼續審查委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十六、繼續審查委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十七、繼續審查委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。
十八、繼續審查委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十九、繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十一、審查委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十二、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等26人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十五、審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十六、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十七、審查委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十八、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十九、審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
【逐條討論】
【第二十九案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】） |
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08:29:59 - 17:24:00 |
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225.31 |
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233.636 |
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收入優惠碼天天想天天爽天天想六五折 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1778.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1779.827 |
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先抱一下 |
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1809.352 |
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1825.402 |
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八萬委員會出席委員人數11人一組,法定人數請主席宣布開會好,現在開會,請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年7月31日星期四9時至12時48分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員林委員岳勤等13人列席委員林委員德福等3人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1836.588 |
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1855.489 |
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請假委員陳委員金輝列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元政務次長林靜儀等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長就因應二零二六失智症防治照護政策綱領二點零升級三點零 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1858.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1884.549 |
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盤點檢討及精進台灣失智症預防照護用藥等政策進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀報告後委員林月琴等13人提出質詢軍經衛生福利部部長與政務次長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員圖全及陳金輝、林德福、盧憲義及許新穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1885.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1899.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
二委員接尋未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢請問委員會上次意思入有無錯誤或遺漏之處好 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1902.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1930.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒有跟他意思入確定本日會議上午議程為邀請衛生福利部部長司法院法務部教育部內政部警政署就因應近期多起社會重大事件檢討家庭暴力防治法民事保護令制度及執行缺失強化保護令之作為進行專題報告並備質詢現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先陳昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1932.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1956.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
王振旭委員衛生福利部部長邱太元保護服務師師長張秀淵社會及家庭署代理署長周道鈞心理健康師師長陳柏喜社會救助及社工師師長蘇昭如醫事師副師長劉玉京 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1962.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1969.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
司法院少年級家事廳廳長鍾中林法官郭耀明資訊處處長何君豪刑事廳法官呂育仁法務檢察司司長張曉雯主任檢察官蔡妍珍 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1990.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2006.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
教育部學生事務及特殊教育師副市長許家倩國民及宣傳教育署副署長詹雅慧內政部警政署副署長廖美玲防治組組長陳炯智 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2016.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2030.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
接下來請衛生福利部部長邱部長報告時間5分鐘主席各位委員女士先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2032.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2049.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
本部呈邀列席大院社會福利及衛生環境委員會全體委員會議深感榮幸知就因應多起社會重大事件檢討家庭暴力防治法民事保護令制度及執行缺失 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2050.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2079.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
強化保護令作為提出專題報告敬請各位委員不吝會議指教民事保護令制度是我國家保防制重要保護措施雖近日社會重大事件連續發生使社會大眾質疑保護令成效但研究顯示合法保護令後八成加害人未再施暴但豈如有全科精神疾病或者嚴重暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2079.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2094.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
脅迫跟蹤等行為時即可能再度施暴其離婚開庭或裁判前後加害人往往採積累暴力因應因此如何對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2095.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2120.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
加強刑事司法的技術力,落實相關安全措施,方能有效維護被害人的安全。加法法在法治層面,經已訂定相關規定及程序,保護令對多事加害人有嚇阻作用,為能有檢討與精進的地方,包括在提升刑事司法執行效益,減少暴力危害部分, |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2121.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2141.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
在民事保護令審理至核發期間出現的保護封裝期各方式網絡成員均應提高敏感度提供必要安全測試減少暴力危害其次是落實處役輔導工作強化加害人再犯預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2143.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2158.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
本部根據督請各縣市政府積極與市法院合作提升法官對加害人處理計畫實施內容以成效之了解並持續補助各縣市政府部件相對人 |
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2160.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2185.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
服務方案降低相對人暴力衝動第三是落實危險評估機制強化被害人保護措施本部將持續透過教育訓練強化社工人人危險評估專業智能知能及敏感度並持續補助各縣市發展被害人多元支持服務資源提供安全庇護最後強化初級預防並深化性別平淺意識持續 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2187.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2206.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
督促地方政府結合在地組織推動預防先導交易深化性平意識民事保護令的成效由來制度完善以落實執行本部執行持續督促各地方政府提供被害人保護措施也需要部會協力合作強化相關司法作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2208.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2224.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
惡主暴力危害對於制度完善以後及執行面持續來檢討修正將近本部呈大院各委員之指教及監督在此盡致協診並期各位委員繼續予以支持以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2243.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2267.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進今天逢邀列席貴人會就這個最近重大社會事件被害人死亡來檢討家庭暴力 核發民事保護令這樣的制度跟相關的這個精進措施作為做專題報告 請各位指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2267.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2281.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
首先向在場各位委員跟先進報告各級法院在113年度核發的通常保護令、暫時保護令及緊急保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2283.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2290.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個分別有這個收案10901件還有5502件還有這個警保令是214件那麼核發率是通保令73.19% 78.69%那警保令94.80% |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2303.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2315.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那大家最關切的就是核發日期我們的統計分析就是通保令是58.55日那麼暫保令是17.43日警保令是2.01小時這以上那經過我們做深入的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2322.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2342.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那有關這個核發保護令日期的這個速度能不能在為保護人命上更加快速那麼發現這個保護令制度目前的設計只有這個警保令不用開庭依照優勢證據主義市民過了就可以直接進發 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2344.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2355.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那麼暫時保護令必須有兩個要件就是第一必須有充分的市民市政第二個可以認定有反覆實施保護必要才不開庭來核發 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2359.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2382.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那麼 但其他如果有爭議 或者市政非常欠缺 就必須開庭跟通保令一樣 當必須開庭的時候 依照正當法律程序它雖然是屬於非送程序 仍然要給予合法的通知 給予適當的準備這些 因此呢 這是第一個造成會比較緩慢的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2384.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2405.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第二就是關於有兒童目睹有關於兒童在家暴裡面必須特別保護要立即函請社政主管機關提出保護兒童的會面計畫等這個也需要一些些時間第三高風險危險的部分我們要立即通知加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2407.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2431.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
接受處理鑑定以便以家以舊從最基本的去對他身心來改變治療以防暴力那這些就是造成他這個核發速度會減緩的原因但我們就這位社會重大事件人命傷亡我想各級法官都非常傷痛那我們司法院痛定是痛就有以下這近幾個月來的具體的檢討作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2436.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2447.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第一個就是行政面一例 收案立即分案 沒有再放個時間在那邊擺第二 要求懲罰法官立即檢閱見證 做危險評估高危險的立即依職權核發暫時保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2456.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2465.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那暫時保護令各位都知道可以不是只有禁爆禁燒可以遠離也可以遷出可以定暫時這個侵權也可以會面交往這樣來保護弱勢保護這些必要的一個高暴力高風險同時同時我們也精進各法院都有住法院的交報服務處有專業的交報 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2482.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2488.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
社工督導社工我們現在一定要轉介給他來做安全擬定安全計畫包括這個護送包括這個相關的通報加防官做這個查訪對相對人告誡查訪對被害人那個安全的一個巡訪等這幾個重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2504.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2516.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個措施那同時呢我們法院有精進硬體措施那麼就是說分開報到分開等候專業隱私保安保安全通道 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2516.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2525.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
最後就是所謂互送這個互送就是分別互送那詢問不會在同一處所詢問有雙向演劇有這個隔離詢問這些都一律做SOP來落實那有關這個對外的部分我們要求依加暴法每年有兩次以上的家庭暴力網絡這個會議要求家事庭庭長法官都一定要參加而且要就這網絡合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2547.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2557.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
提出相關的一個必要的這個協商包括地大危險量表的這個這個監禁跟解讀以及呢這個剛剛邱部長也有提到這個有一些手法意識低低的前科紀錄有精神議題的有強烈控制欲的反入施暴的這一部分在網絡一起把這個網補起來那最後呢就是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2578.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2592.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個本院要進行所謂的分區來進行對家事法官就家庭暴力核發這個所謂的這個定期、迅速、廉潔安全計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2593.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2597.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
連結這個相關的資源做教育訓練同時我們要開始開發新的方案就是我們駐家庭暴力服務處家事服務中心裡面有這個我們四十五所進駐的諮詢跟家事協商中心家庭協商中心我們漏掉了一區塊現在發現對相對人的情緒的支持對相對人的一個暴力的一個掌控 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2623.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2636.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
輸以這個協助所以兩邊都轉介不能只有保護被害人是一定要保護啟動諮商啟動陪伴那加害人他的情緒他看不到孩子以及他對這個所謂的這個所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2642.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2652.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以這個議題上就是婚姻以及侵權以及這個容易刺激他的這個親密關係所造成的一個高暴力風險要轉介到這個家事服務中心來做進行這樣的一個重要的一個輔助這個一個點是發保護令那麼跟著社會網絡連起來是一個線我們司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2668.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2672.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
希望從加爆法的第8條有10個機關在法律明定這樣把它連結起來做一個安全而綿密的保護生命網保護令是要保護生命保護家庭的安寧保護兒童的健康成長所以我們希望這個我們要做到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2691.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2695.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
典現不足以保護人命發保護令各位都看到我們媒體朋友說保護令發了人命仍然死亡了證明這個在法院的運作上我們一定要連結保護社工連結加防官連結警政 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2711.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2715.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
護幼隊連結這個教育單位因為有時孩子要做一個必要的一個轉校然後同時比物同時做安全計畫同時做護送計畫然後加害人的部分我們要進一步加強更多的這個所謂身心協助以便他的一個情緒他的一個高暴力可以減低以上報告請大家指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2741.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2751.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好,謝謝中庭省的報告,缺一塊,缺了加害者那一塊。法務部檢察司,市長,有了,好,謝謝,張市長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2762.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2776.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席各位委員各位先生女士今日奉邀至貴委員會就因應近期多起社會重大事件來檢討家庭暴力防治法民事保護令制度及執行缺失強化保護令之作為代表本部列席報告並被質詢資報告如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2778.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2806.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那近期接續發生家暴殺人案引起國人高度關注我國為防治家庭暴力在民國87年制定家庭暴力防治法本部所屬各地檢查署為刑事犯罪偵查機關均與各地司法警察機關共同合作強力執法提升嚴懲性別暴力犯罪之力道維護社會大眾人身安全保障人民的生活安寧那法院受理保護令申請事件後如任有家庭暴力之事實且有必要者 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2807.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2827.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
依照加罷法第十四條第一項規定依申請或依職權核發該項所列一款或數款之通常保護令依同條第三項規定法院也可以禁令相對人接受認知教育輔導親職教育輔導心理輔導及其他輔導並得命相對人接受有無必要事已精神治療健眼治療及其他治療處於計劃之鑑定評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2829.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2855.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
行为人如违反家暴法第六十一条所列各款法院合法之民事保护令违反保护令罪可处三年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或病科新台币十万元以下罚金地检署办理家庭暴力案件的侦查收结统计从一百一十四年到一百一十四年六月各年度的家庭暴力罪违反保护令罪的总侦查终结人数起诉人数及还起诉人数 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2856.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2881.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
詳如書面資料請參閱地檢署從111年至114年6月各年度有關被告經拘提逮捕到案的總案件數申請羈押件數以及經詢問後任務羈押必要而命拒保責付限制駐居或釋放件數也請參閱書面資料依照家暴法第34條之一辦理通知事項的件數及比率幾乎為百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2881.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2903.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
一家暴法第31條預知附條件命令的件數及比例則達約六成為防堵家庭暴力犯罪本部提出以下的測定作為第一對於家庭暴力案件速查嚴辦及時二組不法就有家庭暴力的犯罪嫌疑者立刻指揮司法警察積極介入的偵辦迅速的收證及時為必要的強制處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2904.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2926.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
以保全證據防免被害人繼續受害檢察官在偵辦將領暴力案件如任有申請羈押的必要時除得依刑事訴訟法第101條第101條之一規定向法院申請羈押外也得依家暴法第30條之一或第32條第二項規定向法院申請羈押如任無申請羈押的必要得依刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2926.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2946.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第117條之一第一項準用第116條之二第一項規定或加罷法第31條規定命被告遵守一定事項並依加罷法第34條之一規定及時通知被害人駐居所地的司法警察機關及家庭暴力防治中心透過跨部會協力合作綿密社會安全網 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2947.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2967.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
從中央到地方建立督導機制、橫向聯繫平台強化家庭暴力案件的偵辦及聯繫機制台高檢署每半年召開富有保護督導小組會議藉此督導各地檢署來積極偵辦家庭暴力案件並透過會議作為各機關間相互交換意見的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2968.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2992.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
各地檢署在每季都會召開婦幼保護兒童及少年性剝削及人口販運防治執行小組會議也透過該會議使婦幼專屬檢查官與地方政府的相關單位相互溝通協調相關的業務或者是案件處理的機制另外本部在114年2月21號在台高檢署婦幼保護多少小組會議宣導辦理違反保護令罪案件時 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2992.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3019.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
如任无羁押必要因事个案请截依家暴法第31条预支付条件命令另外在114年7月14号发函本部所属检察机关警诉向所属检察官来宣导家暴法第三章有关刑事程序的特别规定并办理相关教育训练以提升所属检察官对于家庭暴力的认知及敏感度落实家暴法的立法精神避免被害人继续受害本部另外在114年7月14号 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3021.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3037.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
衛生福利部家庭暴力及性侵害防治推動小組的第六屆第六次會議中也提出依舊個案建立風險的評估機制的建議也就是在刑事司法個案中相關承辦人員依舊家暴發生的頻率家暴情節的輕重演變 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3038.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3054.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
搜集事证并呈现个案相关的详细资讯供贾官预知为强制处分之参考第三积极参与高维基案件的网络会议各地检署均按其派员参与各地方政府主管机关所召开之高维基案件网络会议 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3054.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3070.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
和警政、社政、卫政、医疗机构等相关单位共同就高维基案件主案进行检视及讨论以提供相关的保护、服务、措施第四定期举办教育训练强化检察官的专业职能本部每年办理妇幼保护及性别平等研习会 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3070.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3095.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
并将家庭暴力重大而虐性侵害等相关议题纳入课程的设计本部将跟续办理研习会以强化检察官侦办此类案件的敏感度及手忍度家庭暴力防治为防治性与暴力重要的一环本部说出检察机关对于打击家庭暴力犯罪责无旁贷为维护国人生命身体财产之安全避免民众遭受家庭暴力的威胁将持续严正执法 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3096.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3117.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
並與政府各部門共同維護社會大眾的生活安全安寧以確保民眾權益獲得保障以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝張市長報告其他單位也有說明報告 再請各位委員自行參閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3119.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3139.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
有關於本次的會議各項書面資料今列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始審討做以下宣告本會委員審討時間是6加1分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記那委員如果有書面質詢請於稍微前提出預許不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3140.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3164.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
然後下午要再審查法案所以今天時間就請各位委員好謝謝請登記第一委員曾昭志委員來做法言謝謝主席有請邱部長保護司張師長警政署廖副署長跟法務部的檢察司張師長好請委員長陳委員請到往上面來謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3174.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3194.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我一邊開始好了謝謝四位長官那我國的家庭暴力防治法在整個立法跟修法過程當中不斷的擴大被保護的這個對象範圍這一點我給予衛福部相當的肯定尤其是保護司這個服務是張司長張長您在這個職位已經十多年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3194.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3210.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我相信您對業務是非常的這個熟忍所以我第一個問題我想請教司長您認為目前家暴法之下的這個保護令制度是否對於每一位這個施暴者都有嚇阻作用呢請簡單回答 謝謝嚇阻作用是 張司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3212.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3238.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
一定有 從我們的統計裡頭 違反保護令的大概佔兩成那所以從保護令核發 從申請到審理到核發 您認為是有這個有嚇阻作用 那我請教警政署這個廖副署長 您認為這個保護令對施暴者是否有嚇阻作用 您的觀點呢我們也認為有一定的保護的作用 對加害人有一定的嚇阻作用那法務部張司長呢 你認為有嚇阻作用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3243.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3270.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們也是認為有一定的嚇阻作用因為依據統計資料再違反保護令最大就是兩成的案件我了解你們的答案那邱部長呢你認為有沒有嚇阻作用呢我想民事保護令這個制度是保護我們被害人相當那您認為嚇阻作用如何呢那當然有需要再精進但是至少到目前為止八成的加害 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3272.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3294.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
目前四位長官的意思都是說是如此那當然是這個今年七月中旬衛福部有引用引用在司法法治委員會又引用了這個近藍大學交報研究中心王沛琳主任的研究他指出說這個或核發民事保護令的案件當中大概八成以上的家人沒有在肢體的暴力行為顯示保護令它是具有抑鬱作用那麼邱部長我請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3295.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3312.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那是否代表說基本上是有用的還是說只對低風險的是有效如果再範率兩成你認為是高還是低再範率兩成如果八成有用那再範率兩成你認為是高還低我想有一定的成效但是必須要再提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3314.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3337.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們一定要再提高我認為那兩成還是非常的對 那個也是很重要就是我們現在目前大家跨部會以及在精進一個重點我希望你們是這麼思考的上個月土著發生這個有家暴令 持有家暴令七者齁那麼隨即就在街頭上被先生殺死了齁那衛福部事後檢討指責檢察官沒有申請羈押凶嫌所以才造成這個憾事我想請問法務部這個張司長你認同衛福部這個說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3340.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3353.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我想說明一下其實那是經過討論以後覺得應該提供給多一點資料大家給檢察官並不是說怪到檢察官那我讓他們做一個回覆嘛當事長您認同這個說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3356.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3375.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我想檢察官申請羈押在任何案件他都必須要有相關的證據資料所以在這個案件之後其實我們也跟衛福部相互的溝通討論還有相關的警政單位就是針對家庭暴力案件如果現行犯移送到檢察機關的時候應該要有相關的充分的資料來提供檢察官作為強制處分的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3376.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3391.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
市長我想您知道您的意思是說羈押準否他其實是有一個嚴謹的一個程序啦跟事實的保障補保障在法的觀點是如此剛剛司法院的報告裡面有提到說如果不准羈押對於施暴者有時候產生更多的他提到情緒的一些刺激問題我想這個都要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3392.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3414.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
但是有一件事情是不需要考慮施暴者的這個行為跟刺激就是如何落實對被害者被施暴者的一個保護等一下我會提到安置問題好謝謝好那雖然民事保護令似乎對大部分家暴個案有嚇阻作用但同一份研究請注意王沛琳主任剛剛報告也稍微提到人存在一群遊走法外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3414.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3436.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
施暴者這些人無視法律的這個命令難以約束的這個加害人通常他們具有三種高風險的特質犯罪前科精神疾病還有控制欲很強的這個脅迫行為那我想請教廖副署長目前你是否對於高風險的違令者的有預警機制呢這個讓基層人員他們能夠做一個布控或是一個追蹤請警政署說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3439.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3441.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這個一般高風險的個案是經由我們網絡的一個合作的這個會議來判斷它是不是屬於高風險高風險的項目是什麼那主席會才是可能對於這個被害人必須要加強安全保護措施我們就依照所以你有疫情機制嗎你認為你就有疫情機制嗎讓計審員能夠來做一些就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3460.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3466.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
會有一個通報的機制認為這個是一個高風險的個案我們就會進入高風險的評估的會議來對被害人做安全保護的措施好 謝謝 人民從社會新聞上讀到像土城凶殺案 信義情殺案或是因為因地方法院寄送物善保護令導致被害人的地址曝光並遭加害人埋伏砍殺的遺憾的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3483.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3509.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以保護令雖然具有法律效應但事實上還是一個書面命令那所謂的保護令終究還是仰賴後端的執行跟配套那其實土城凶殺案跟新疫情殺案共同的特徵很高的機率在於在你核發這個保護令之前其實早已經觸發高風險加害人他的報復動機我現在請教法務部對於此類高風險案件是否有明確的即刻預警跟介入的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3510.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3529.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
即刻的預警跟介入制度你的時間點是OK的嗎如果是高風險如果他那個是現行犯的犯罪移送到檢查機關來檢查機關認為說這個他有實施反覆實施再犯之餘的話就可以依照刑事訴訟規定來申請羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3531.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3541.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
你是這個地方回答那我要請警政署回答那你是不是在法院核發保護令的同時會收到法務部建立的高風險預警名單你通常多久才會收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3543.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3561.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們是根據法院核發的保護令一般保護令核發之後應該差不多三天左右三天嗎 三天嗎對 那收到之後我們會依據保護令核發的項目款項來做執行執行的時候如果說相對的違反的事項我們再判斷謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3562.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3590.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我問這個問題的意思是說邱部長如果跨部會沒辦法同步同步這個資訊高風險民災資訊而且留意相關狀況譬如說剛剛提到高風險的特質尤其是他們了解被害者的生活習性跟起居的環境這種加害人跟他這個累犯的部分你認為要如何防範呢就對高風險的這一群人他對於加害人非常熟悉被害者非常的熟悉那你要有什麼防範措施嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3592.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3615.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那或是說你有沒有對有明確的預警安置判斷能力?一個是對加害者,一個是對被害者,衛福部有思考這個?當然家暴樣態是多元且複雜,所以一定要落實危險的評估來進行我指的是高風險啊,高風險的部分啊高風險的話,我們當然要加強它的一個司法的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3617.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3639.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
現在已經發生了所以我們今天才要來檢討這些事情我認為是被施暴者對施暴者的這個被施暴者保護一定要完善的安置機制才能減少憾事但是請注意當然還沒辦法杜絕即便有那基本的安置是一定要做好但是我現在手邊的資料2024年全國家家庭暴力被害人庇護安置及自立住宅資源的統計全台灣共有27處緊急短期的庇護所 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3644.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3665.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
有21處中長期庇護所但是他的資源普遍集中在某些特定地區像是新竹、嘉義、金門、連江報告主席您的所居的地方也沒有啊也沒有這個中長期庇護所那我請教衛務部你打算如何改善這個資源分配不均中長期安置不足的部分你可以先有這個規劃嗎你先不用講你有沒有做這個規劃資源的這個分配不足啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3671.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3691.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
當然我們本部一定是有去督導三位部件中長期市長你現在有在規劃這件事情嗎因為你安置是很重要的而且這個是多元化因為我們一邊增加安置一邊也要多元化因為有的可能很需要的是租金的補助我繼續請教你家庭被害者這個庇護安置機構總從位數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3696.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3713.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
入住比率是多少?你有沒有即時監控,就是說必要時可以調度,在不同的地區調度不同區域的空床呢?我們目前大概有312床,那入住的比率呢?那住宿的比率大概是短期的話,僅短大概44.5%那你有機制去調控嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3719.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3728.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們當然有窗口 但是即使全國的 即使這個還沒有 但是每一個縣市都有一個窗口市長你在點頭是有這個調控機制嗎我們沒有資訊化 但是有單一窗口 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3737.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3742.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
有窗口可以聯繫我們要思考因為安置對這些被害人來說是很重要的那要跟委員強調我們的安置除了庇護處所還有一個多元的服務包括連結旅宿業的服務或者是租金補貼或者是租金服務平台的一個銜接他們最需要的一個狀況最需要的狀況是很重要的法務部警政署請回邱部長請留步 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3761.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3777.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
邱部長這張圖是一個退休衛福部的高官他給我的傳他最近在近日這個萬華西山街二手市場發現二手貨市場竟然有一堆處方藥你看旁邊也有佛書一堆處方藥我從這邊看不清楚是什麼藥但他本身是個醫師他知道是處方藥柏定你有沒有聽過藥瓶二手轉賣嗎在這個市場在這個二手貨市場你認為這個藥怎麼流出來的你不知道你看這都藥都處方藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3794.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3807.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個最...當然有幾種可能性有時候是不是說就是你要去 也可以派人去了解藥品可以在外面流通嗎當然不應該 現在所有的每一顆藥還是你們就是拿去轉賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3813.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3817.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
裡面有很多藥 因為有人在問裡面有沒有壯陽藥其實我們也很擔心管理人員醫療院所應該不至於有這種情況發生我們現在回說民眾多餘的藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3829.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3843.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
主席已經 感謝藥水幫忙也弄得不錯就是繼續這件事去了解一下好嗎好 那現在還有一個外流的問題就是安眠藥 安眠藥是管制藥嘛有些多數是第四級但有些是第三級那如果在醫院開立我就覺得OK因為他有完整的病歷 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3844.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3856.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
現在我最擔心是人頭開立處方然後轉售那因為最近那個去年有中山區的青山診所爆發用人頭來開這個配左鳴嘛其實大家都講史蒂諾是錯了有35家牌子不法獲利超過兩千萬一個診所就有這個數字所以這個部長你有解決之道嗎外流裡面有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3864.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3885.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
如果不合理的話我想我們有很多種的機制在管制這個我們如果有任何通報我們一定去徹查這件事情然後基本上的一個不管是醫學的專業教育或者要求都會先做好要去做這件事我先提醒你那最後一個就是說您當時是失言吧您對於這個組織醫師要下來值班 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3892.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3907.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
您說用欽佩的態度你知道引起很多醫師的反對沒有啦我必須要在這邊給我說明一下這不是一個好事對這不是一個好事而只至於是值班真的是很辛苦我們也非常不容易發生但是我在講的是台大醫院它本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3909.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3930.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
從5點到12點這樣的一個制度他們院長跟我解釋是說缺人啊 缺醫師啊當然一邊可以 我有先講喔這個應該是當然缺人所以在教學上必須要用這樣的一個方式那這樣的方式我是說這樣的一個方式晚上的教學有限啦 晚上大概是stand by的要去照顧病人但是他們有要 院長跟我說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3932.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3938.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
只要有新case他們就會去指導這個PDI我們重點是在於他用這種方式不是我們對於四大科值班或者公共環境的辛苦我們是非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3949.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3961.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這些問題比較重要啦這個很重要,這個我們一定要來解決好,佛定謝謝,因為時間到了,謝謝好,謝謝,今天有拜託各位就,因為下午要審法案來,請陳清輝委員,謝謝謝謝主席,請邱部長來,請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3975.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3991.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
主席部長今天其實要討論的一件事情事關重大然後也很希望部長可以幫我們就每一個面向可以去監督需要主責的主管機關去做該做的事那為了加速您了解背景資料我們先看一段影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3992.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4020.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
高雄知名網紅減重醫師遭指控害死人家屬表示嫂嫂為了減重從桃園南下動刀但術後卻不幸離世意外發現這名醫師在術前以各種名目私下向嫂嫂收取了將近兩百萬的費用卻沒有正式的醫療收據就連手術的名稱都跟病歷上寫的不一樣對此遭指控的醫師也發出聲明表示死者接受的並不是減重手術而是胃部重建術後疑似肺栓塞搶救不治身表遺憾已經進入司法程序目前不便回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4021.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4026.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
家屬指稱42歲死者林小姐為了減重從桃園南下高雄7月10號在小港某醫院進行手術隔天出現呼吸急促等情況接著裝潢大醫院搶救12號臨時運行動搶救不治她寫給我寫的是說胃礦場彭格摩善氣修補書 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4048.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4069.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
他留在醫院交給檢察官的是胸腔鏡位縮小並小腸繞道手術家屬召開記者會拿出死者身前與醫師的對話記錄指控對方手術名稱與病歷不符之外也沒有門診評估就直接替病患動手術光是線上照顧顧問費就要40萬前後收取近200萬元的費用都沒有正式醫療收據他私底下對醫生要求用現金用轉帳還有匯款記錄將近160 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4072.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4097.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
面对指控 该名医师强调医疗费用都有正式的收据并发出声明表示林小姐因为前次减重手术留下后遗症因此进行剖腹制未重建手术术后24小时对方疑似产生肺炎以及呼吸窘迫或是肺栓栓经抢救转院 仍不治医师和院方声表遗憾本案已进入司法程序目前不便回应关税局也到医院进行了解表示手术费用已超过收费的标准除了最高开罚20万元以外也要求限期退还而手术是否构成过度医疗或是医疗不当致死已由地检� |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4101.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4124.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
部長 為什麼我們今天會特別希望您可以勇於承擔是因為科委員開完這個記者會以後馬上有第二例過來陳情所以這個醫生因為這樣子的手術在兩週之內已經兩起併發症死亡第二個案例更年輕 第二個案例是33歲的年輕女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4125.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4139.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
許許多多正派的減重代謝醫師也紛紛的希望透過我跟您請命所以我們接下來會藉由每一條每一條來分析部長可以從哪一些地方去做您的行政調查以及懲處首先我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4141.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4166.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
根據醫師法第20條還有醫療法第22條醫師收取費用應該要有醫療機關另外應該要載明金額還有他的收據細項以及不得違反收費的標準剛剛從影片中你已經很明顯的看到說他違反收費標準嘛那我們接下來看這個是一個他們許多病人自救團體我們找得到的截圖我們先看最左邊部長他寫到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4169.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4183.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
健保之父的橫膈膜扇氣修補手術以外呢我們私底下要進行礦場等等要收14萬14萬請匯款到下面是醫師個人的帳戶跟他的名字 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4184.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4203.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這邊你已經看到了他有申請健保所以我們要問的是他是不是只有這一例申請健保又私底下跟病人收錢還是你應該去調查他所有開過的手術是不是都同步申請健保並且私底下跟病人收錢我們來看第二張截圖第二張截圖他寫得很明顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4205.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4228.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
他說你跟先生兩人120萬12月我幫你開並且建立信仰跟信任請問這有沒有嚴重的違反醫學倫理除了金額極巨大以外他沒有給收據他也沒有給這120萬是什麼細項再來他居然要對病人建立信仰是什麼意思我們看第三張圖第三張圖他提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4231.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4256.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個是專門為你買的鐵褲器械10萬人民幣我再經歷了一直協調大陸那邊的工廠因為我過去的時間是週末他們沒有上班這是不是也應該要請食藥署主動積極介入調查他怎麼會去私底下用人民幣幫病人購買器械而且得意洋洋的在這個群組上面炫耀 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4258.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4282.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我想知道衛福部 你有沒有啟動健保署 食藥署 醫事司這全部都牽扯這上面三個署 請問你們現在做了什麼報告委員 我想如果以類級這些事情真的是有高度必須要我們去調查他所不管是醫師法 醫療法 健保法只要有還有食藥署 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4283.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4305.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
任何還有器材的問題那當然這個如果任何有不法的一定要嚴格辦理依法辦理這個是絕不寬戴我們必須要在這邊宣示如果有這種情況一定要查到底而且絕對不能再發生到當然我們這個部分第一個我們也希望當地的一個我相信我也了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4306.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4333.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
當地的縣市的一個衛生局都有徹底的去了解那另外因為這個也進入了司法的偵查的一個過程所以我們在這個某些西部我們大概也不能公告但是衛福部一定去協助當地的衛生局從各個方面不管是我們健保當地的健保組健保的組分區組去調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4335.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4338.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
部長你剛聽我講已經牽涉三個署那當然也牽涉國稅局嘛因為他私底下跟別人收費郵顧問費等等這個完全不明他的金流到底是如何國稅局再來我還會說法務部他牽涉的部門非常多所以你沒有辦法去期待一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4354.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4378.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
小小的地方政府的衛生局可以做到這麼多的事情所以接下來還有您一個很重要的任務這位醫生他有非常多的粉磚群組所以他的病他雖然職業地點在高雄但是他的病人來自四面八方我們接到這兩位不幸因病發症死亡就是都是北部到南部去開刀的並且數前沒有看診 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4379.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4386.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
數前就是您剛看到的截圖他就用LINE跟病人溝通匯款那他並沒有就算是視訊診療部長你也很清楚視訊診療也必須醫生本人在醫療機構內並且留下病歷的證據他跟病人諮詢了哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4396.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4417.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
他就藉由這樣子的群組他現在由他的粉絲在裡面講到說衛生局要擴大調查所有病人所以請大家保密喔免得衛生局又要認定是過度醫療開完刀的宿友請大家表示對內容收費沒有疑慮不同意衛生局的調查我想問 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4419.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4441.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
醫療法第26條講到說醫療機構本來就應該要配合主管機關根據不管是病例、診察紀錄、手術紀錄等等收費收集全面的配合請問你是不是應該要立即發文指導高雄市衛生局針對這種妨礙調查的訊息專案去追查該開罰的該移送的要立刻處理不可以延誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4442.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4456.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
有關委員剛剛提到這一張到26條這個部分我們其實一直有跟高雄市衛生局我們也知道他們都一直在做應該的懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4457.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4459.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們請法務部的代表上來我想問的是 部長你可不可以請他們先保留所有的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4479.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4502.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
應該的應該是你今天可以發文嗎請衛生局到這個醫院的病歷病歷那邊保全所有的你今天可以承諾嗎我們會依規定來要求他們這樣子這邊也要問法務部我不知道你們知不知道這個案件的進度但是你們跟高雄地檢署都應該要立刻動起來因為如果如這個病友群組的截圖啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4503.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4510.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你會發現說滅症行為是不容被允許的剛剛你聽我講那麼多他不管是訴錢的諮詢違法或者是他購買醫材違法私底下收費違法他的訴示拿給病人的跟拿給我們主管機關的完全對不起來違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4521.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4537.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
他這些他這些違反這個未照文書啊或者是其他違法的事件我們依刑事訴訟法相關是不是可以申請金押羈押防止當事人滅政串供因為他現在還不斷的在接觸這些這些病友們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4539.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4566.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這個個案法務部是不清楚那但是如果高雄地檢署目前在偵辦中那依據剛才委員所提供的資料我們也會送給這個高雄地檢署來做一個參考那等一下我們就把資料給您轉交那您也在這邊是不是透過鏡頭告訴這些我覺得還不太了解法律相關的這些粉絲們如果你去配合滅證也會涉及刑法的延滅證據罪是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4567.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4571.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好那我們今天等一下也會請助理協助您把這些資訊帶回去給法務部還有高雄地檢署最後請部長回來謝謝 謝謝法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4591.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4615.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
部長在這邊因為我們兩個都讀過非常多的醫療期刊剛剛已經告訴你了他是一個網紅醫師他拍了非常多的短影片所以他以此為噱頭說最理想的還是做縮胃擴腸手術好我剛剛就已經跟你說很多正派你身為衛福部部長你不只是要保護病人的安全你還要保護其他正派的減重代謝的外科醫生對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4616.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4643.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這都是他們提供給我的期刊所以這篇先給您看一下這個是國際代謝減重學術外科醫學會他說最近有很多創新的減重的方式但是他也提到其中的門禮所以這是他們的這個聲明那這一段就是在講說這個手術它是1960年到1970年被創造出來的但是呢Creating surgical shoulder syndrome而達到效果它讓腸子變短 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4648.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4654.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
但是呢他最終被大部分的醫生所拋棄了因為嚴重的併發症先讓部長看一下這個是國際醫學會的意見你覺得這樣嚴重嗎他在做一個被大部分醫師主流醫師全部拋棄的手術 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4670.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4699.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
當然這個是在obesity surgery的期刊我想是很標準很代表性的啦好那接下來我們來看死亡率所以他的意見我們應該是要採納專業的一個專業考量來納入來做質疑的建議第二章我來看一下這個死亡率這個國際醫學會組織他們也非常的監控全世界在做減重手術的死亡率好我們來看mobility他去分析啊澳洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4700.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4720.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
初次死亡率 萬分之四 再次死亡率 萬分之五法國千分之一 荷蘭萬分之三好 我們短短時間內 兩週 看到同一位醫師他沒有經過正式的看診 沒有經過數前的評估然後兩位併發症死亡 你覺得高不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4721.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4741.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
跟這個國際期刊的數據比高不高我想要這個我們都經過scientific的training我想用更多的data數據我們再來做一個再高低這個部分做評論但是只要任何一個狀況有錯失有過失我們都一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4743.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4760.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
主席再給我兩分鐘我很快講完這個很明顯的違反了醫學倫理的規範上次狼醫事件部長我們衛福部最為人所詬病的就是這些狼醫開始進入法務調查或是開始進入行政調查的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4762.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4776.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
都沒有被停職最後的大家從新聞上一看回推才發現說哇這些不管是性侵性騷的醫師他從開始調查到現在看了一年到兩年的病看了四五年的病而這位醫師現在也還在職業中我現在告訴你這位醫師現在還在職業中 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4781.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4794.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他2024年年底有被懲處停業了兩個月但是我們從網站上看不出為什麼這就是為什麼之前一直叫你們要建立平台林淑芬委員也一直在講劉建國張委員也很熟悉嘛所以從你的醫師法第28-4條25條請問你是不是應該要開始考慮第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4803.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4818.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
立即監督高雄市衛生局醫師公會來啟動內部的懲戒第二他是不是已經符合你們可以先暫停暫時的停職暫時的停職並且收集證據是不是已經符合了我都已經幫你圈起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4820.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4842.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
好 這個高雄市衛生局他們有經過懲戒委員會幾次的開會做出應有的懲戒那我想我們會去我們站在衛福部的角度會去協助跟瞭解他這樣是不是夠周全或者是需要再做什麼樣的一個建議這個我們會密切跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4843.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4865.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
但是絕對一定站在保護優先保護民眾安全健康我現在就是告訴你他現在還在手術中你多快多快你這些剛從違反所有的醫療法規這個稅務的疏失然後從他這些醫材看診 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4866.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4894.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
還有他這個態度的處理湮滅證據到這個嚴重違反醫學倫理你有沒有要懲戒跟停業嗎看起來有這麼多的問題那我想每一個問題我們都要去做調查那我們會盡快的以最快的速度來調查那你多久你可以給我一個時限嗎我們來瞭解他整個一個懲戒的狀況以及說他可能涉嫌到的部分這個部分我們再請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4894.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4909.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
相關的保護部門然後用最快的速度再跟先跟委員做一個報告啦好因為其實這些家屬也很痛心他們很擔心其他現在還在執行手術的人我們感同身受而且嚴禁任何真的醫界的不好就是說行為不 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4915.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4933.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
不當的一個分子來影響那麼多那麼多每天日以繼夜在服務民眾的政派意識絕對不容許好 最後就是好 也請主席還有部長我們一起來監督這些以下的單位我等一下也會一一來給各位資訊好 謝謝好 是的 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請王育明委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4947.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4976.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們是請衛福部部長 還有我們法務部檢察司的司長副院長好部長好 這個家暴悲劇一樁又一樁今天凌晨一點在嘉義縣水上鄉發生了一起妻子殺害丈夫的這個家暴案件家裡面還有三名未成年的幼童目睹這樣子的一個悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4977.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4988.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
而這個案件目前傳出來這位太太皇女曾經跟警方報案家暴而且有申請過家暴保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4990.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5010.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
既然有申請保護令還爆發這麼嚴重的家庭悲劇這代表什麼我們的整個保護機制是失靈的沒有辦法進一步去防止這樣的悲劇一再的發生這是今天凌晨最新發生的一個案件在我們今天拍的這樣的專報又爆發這麼嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5013.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5031.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
一個家庭悲劇所以我們今天真的是要痛定思痛好好的來檢討到底我們這樣的一個保護機制出現了什麼樣的一個問題而這個個案我要求部長跟法務部你們立刻回去瞭解既然有申請保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5032.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5042.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
是太太申請保護令然後又爆發事激烈口角之後太太就是失控然後刺殺了她的丈夫這當中一定有很複雜的因素那我們的保護令為什麼沒有發揮這一個保護的效果讓這樣子一個衝突繼續發生我覺得這個一定要好好的檢討就是這個個案讓人家看了太心痛了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5055.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5058.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
而從這個個案我們在看到最近一連串的這個從新北的這一些家暴的悲劇我們看到家暴問題這四年來就是一直在上升這個案件非常的多那我歸納起來我們現在有四大不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5075.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5097.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
要去改善第一個我們家暴網絡人員的敏感度其實是很不足的第二個我們對加害人施強制力包括法務部的這個羈押也是不足的第三個我們對於加害人的監控性其實是不夠的第四個我們對受害者的預警機制不足第一個我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5099.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5114.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
以這個法務部你們現在的這個家暴行為羈押你們的羈押率也太低了這個整體家暴的這個犯罪平均案件數是3305件被生壓的只有223僅佔6.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5119.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5143.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
包括新北的這個案子就是已經有申請希望可以羈押但是法務部檢察官你們當時是說這個不夠嚴重這個不夠嚴重他說他只有摔物品還不夠嚴重沒有侵害人身的自由另外你們還發新聞稿說他不符合反覆實施的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5144.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5166.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個通通都是漏洞啊那請問你們當時有去考量被害人的意見陳述嗎現在從事後來看被害人的家屬覺得這個家害人的情況是很嚴重的但是到了你們司法機關檢察官認為沒有必要放出去了結果他就去殺人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5167.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5171.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個不需要檢討嗎這個不需要檢討嗎這個我先請法務部來法務部的我們檢察室的司長這樣的情況你們要怎麼改善顯然你們是有漏洞的加上我剛剛講嘉義縣剛爆發的這一件這麼嚴重的這個又是一個家庭悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5185.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5202.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那請問你們在研判到底該不該羈押如果這個當事人他其實行為狀況威脅程度是很高的到底檢察官他是怎麼判斷的這樣子就是輕判這樣子就是讓他有機會就是回過頭去威脅這個被害人你們要怎麼改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5205.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5228.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
跟那個委員報告那有關的那個羈押強制處分那他要考量的相關的證據資料那這件新北案件發生以後呢那我們也有去做了解那同時也跟衛福部參與相關的會議來做檢討就是說新北那個案子的話因為當時甲官的這個手上的相關的證據資料那在前科紀錄裡面是顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5230.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5246.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
在五月份的時候有一個是傷害案件那其中中間相關發生的這個家暴都沒有相關通報記錄在檢察官的捐贈資料裡面可以看得出來那所以在七月初的那次移送這個現行犯違反保齡罪移送的時候那檢察官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5247.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5270.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
依照卷內的相關證據評估是認為說還不符合這個羈押的要件那所以給予被告這個請回的一個處分那當然檢察官當時也依照相關的這個法律通報相關的單位來注意保護這個被害人的安全那這件案件發生之後呢我們也通靈就發函這個檢察機關就是說相關的那個教育訓練當然我們還是持續的進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5274.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5289.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
同時我們也要跟這個相關的警政單位做一個聯繫就是說希望那個相關單位他們在詢問這個被害人的筆錄裡面可以去呈現就是過去所發生的相關的通報紀錄那以便警察官能夠參酌更多的資料這個市長我問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5291.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5305.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
以新北的這個案件檢察官他在審閱的時候他有沒有去看到被害人的意見陳述他有沒有仔細去了解被害人的感受是什麼坦白講被害人他第一時間的感受他是最直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5306.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5310.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那你這個如果完全忽略的話你如果按照你剛剛講的這些要件你再審一次你一樣會有死角你一樣會有看不見的地方這顯然連被害人的家屬都覺得這個加害人其實已經是很可怕了 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5321.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5338.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那跟委員報告但檢察官無感嘛因為那個案件是現行犯移送的所以我們檢察官必須要在24小時就警方移送之後要在24小時之內做出決定所以這個司長我要建議你的就是我覺得我們很多檢察官在這一方面的敏感度其實是不足的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5338.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5354.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們的專業訓練其實也是不足的所以他沒有把這一些相關的他好好的去去審慎所以他才會做出說不嚴重就是讓他走了那這件事情我覺得你們要徹底檢討在今天你們的報告裡面其實我並沒有看到我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5355.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5372.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這個法務部有責任這一類的家暴案件你們的敏感度有很多檢察官他沒有相關的訓練他的確是不足的那我建議你們一定要納入被害人的意見陳述要重視被害人的聲音跟意見如果他被忽略了那個悲劇也一定會再發生這是第一個我要給這個法務部的建議第二個是對於這一個加害者的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5380 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5400.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
監控現在我們看到這個在法國或者是英國在歐洲他們已經開始針對這一些施暴者施以電子監控我覺得這個是一個很好的制度我們過去都只會教這個被害人趕快躲起來趕快躲起來就是遠離但是我們並沒有針對加害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5401.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5421.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
就是施予這個電子監控那事實上你們法務部針對很多犯罪者你們都會有這個電子監控我認為這樣子的一個國外的措施你們應該回去好好研議在你們今天的報告裡面我也都沒有看到這樣的改進措施喔因為國外已經顯示了如果有電子監控它這一些可以降低它的供給這個是有效的下降喔我認為這一塊是你們法務部可以做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5425.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5441.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
另外一個是對於被害人的這個預警喔既然你已經產生電子監控我們現在像新北這個案子他突然就跑去他的這個路上去攔他這個被害人根本不知道他會突然出現如果今天我們的智慧科技都這麼發達我們應該可以針對這個可以發出預警一方面是監控加害人一方面對於被害人我們現在很多的智慧科技都已經很發達 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5452.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5459.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
可以告訴他說這個加害人他已經違反保護令他已經在他附近可能已經在什麼樣的範圍之內然後增加他的這個示警跟預警我認為這個其實是非常重要的工具但是很可惜今天在各單位的報告裡面呢都沒有看到這種更有效的我們即時性去阻卻這些加害人的這個行為然後也提醒這個被害人就是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5482.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5498.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個加害人可能出現在他附近範圍了像台北那一個他也不知道他就等他就在那個停車場等他然後就突然衝出來啊所以我覺得這一些都已經是我們現在在科技我們說台灣是科技之島這些科技運用工具就應該運用在這邊去保護我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5502.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5508.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這一些人民他的生命安全我覺得沒有生命安全其實他都是假的所以今天討論這個議題我認為我們在保障被害者人身安全還有很多不足的地方那衛福部不是只有一直說這個要我們有很多庇護的地方然後暫時就是趕快躲起來躲起來還不夠啊他還要生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5522.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5539.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
他也要工作那你要確保就是他還可以一定程度範圍的正常的生活跟工作我覺得這個是我們應該要去研議的法務部這個部分可不可以帶回去好好研議你跟委員報告齁那個目前刑事訴訟法的那個科技監控齁是針對那個被告的一個防逃措施齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5542.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5564.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那針對這個是不是可以利用電子監控來達到保護被害人的目的那因為這個科技監控它的這個設備是放在這個被告的身上的那如果要去連結到這個被害人的話那因為相關現行的法令上並沒有就是針對被害人他必須要有個相對應的這個設備然後來做他可以自由去選取嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5565.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5581.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
如果是為了增加他的安全可能要經過他的同意我知道那你們去研議好不好那這部分因為加冒法的主管機關是衛福部所以是不是要在加冒法裡面去做部長你回應一下我剛建議的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5582.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5605.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
監控機制是不是可以?非常謝謝王委員的提醒,我想這個是值得來研議我們一定要保護密不通風,讓它無懈可擊所以有關於保護令是不是要參考像英國的一個家庭內帶法增設電子監控的一些條款那這個部分當然我們會再考慮安全、隱私、技術的面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5607.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5634.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我們一定以司法院、法務部、內政部、警政署來演上好,我要求你們儘快,你們要多少時間演繹?儘快好不好?我想一個月內來開這個會好了一個月之內,然後把演繹的報告送給委員會,好不好?我們希望我們一起來保護我們這些人民的生命安全因為所有的家庭悲劇,我們看了這都非常的心痛,好不好?謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5635.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5651.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
一定努力,謝謝好,謝謝文委,謝謝部長、市長接下來請邱政軍委員來做宣導好,主席好,我們一樣請我們邱部長來,請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5655.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5676.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
委員長部長好現在台美關稅談判結束了我們行政院副院長曾立軍回國之後強調台美技術性的協商完成框架也包括美豬美牛等非關稅貿易障礙都有部分的開放但涉及食安或高風險的項目我們是守底線不退讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5677.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5697.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那涉及萊克多巴胺含量的國際規範部分我方會對外宣稱比較國際標準那我請問部長三件事第一個牛的部分台灣目前只開放牛的肌肉殘留10ppb那肝臟腎臟全部沒有定容許值禁止進口吧對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5700.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5711.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
報告委員感謝您關心到這個關稅整個大家全國關注的而且我們政府以及特別是談判小組真的很 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5712.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5734.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
很辛苦在爭取臺灣最大的一個權益啦那這中間有牽涉到我們必須要尊重他的一個保密所以他的裡面的內涵所以你也不知道他...我們完全是尊重關稅小組在那個在他們的談判那我覺得他一定遵守我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5735.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5743.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
的一個保護人民的一個健康維護國家的安全還有保護農民保護我們產業的四大原則來做一個談判我相信他們一定會在這樣的原則我們的原則是美國的原則還是我們自己的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5753.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5763.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這四個原則在談判嘛哪四個就是跟剛才你講的嘛那我現在就問你就是美牛的部分比較Pol-Base的那個標準還是開放那個標準是單仗是40ppb單仗是90ppb |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5774.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5799.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
包委員這個都是在還在談判的內容裡面我想請是不是我們來尊重談判小子的一個他的必須要保密我覺得你們是主管機關你們應該有你們的立場當然現在是國際情勢非常嚴峻沒有錯但是我認為你衛福部您的業務是要保護我們國人的健康當然所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5800.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5816.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個部分我覺得業務單位應該有自己的底線所以我們所謂的開放是比照國際標準租也一樣嘛對不對那租的部分是我覺得也是應該有一定的標準我現在比較好奇的是你是 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5817.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5830.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
照這個我們所謂的國際標準是這個Codex還是那個美國FDA的標準當然我們國家都在按照Codex在定標準那這個我們業務單位當然是 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5833.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5859.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
把那個比較科學根據科學跟國際標準我真的很佩服你們一邊對外放話對媒體透露什麼技術性協商什麼然後又什麼保密然後一到立法院一到立法院就變成保密了那我們我覺得你們的保密邏輯是行政院這個外面那個媒體都知道了立法院都不能問細節我就覺得這很奇怪的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5860.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5877.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我想這個沒有人會 這個基於國家的重大利益這個是非常保密 沒有 應該是媒體也應該跟我們一樣都是一樣的 一致的狀況所以我們現在就是用那個標準 會超過嗎 還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5879.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5897.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
是用哪一個 你們的態度是什麼我們提供的就是現在目前國際的一個標準以及現在科學對譬如說它的風險評估各方面我們很客觀的來提供給相關的單位去做基礎你提的什麼標準 你提的嗎你們的態度 你們的底線在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5905.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5926.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
因為在談的當中就會有很細膩的去再把引經據點嘛那這個都是比較細節我們不需要引經據點啦我們需要國人的健康受到保障這個部分我們尊重一下談判小組的一個所以談判小組會凌駕在國人的健康之上嗎他會犧牲我們國人的健康來做談判的籌碼嗎這個國人的健康我認為他不是談判的籌碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5934.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5962.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我是希望政府你要保護人民不能夠拿國人的健康來犧牲好嗎當然這是基本原則那再來我再問就是我們回到今天的議題我想問各部會你們認為是什麼是有效的預警跟保護那一張保護令到底能保護什麼正常的人收到保護令自己會知道自己什麼能做什麼不能做嗎但今天討論就是一個不把保護令當做一回事的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5964.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5980.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那一張保護令它會響嗎?它會震動嗎?都不會嘛所以你拿著那一張到底是幹嘛它這個有什麼作用我真的覺得很好奇那最有效的預警就剛剛我們王玉民委員講的就是說當加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5981.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6004.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
靠近被害人的時候那被害人的手機會收到警訊警示那警察系統也可以即時收到定位的訊息那社工當然也可以藉此掌握我們家裡的行蹤不用疲於奔命我覺得這個部分剛剛我也聽到部長有講我們不能夠再依靠這一張會通靈的紙你這張紙沒有用啊你拿著這張紙到底是給誰看 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6007.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6019.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
如果他守法,他今天就不會收到保護令啦因為我們碰到的都是不是正常的人嘛所以你給他保護,你這個保護令對他有什麼約制的作用嘛那我請問一下啦,我們問司法院來,有請廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6030.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6044.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們聽長我請問一下我國的法律有沒有授權法院對家暴高風險加害人裁定電子監控裝置的目前依照家暴法是沒有那如果沒有的話我們可不可以做呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6046.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6061.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
你認為有沒有逼啊如果從最近或者統計來這個非常高風險的這個暴力的危害人命傳走國外這些立法例我現在講啊 性侵犯都有了都可以做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6062.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6079.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那為什麼這個這個性侵可以佩戴然後還有我們的酒駕也可以這個扣車詐騙也可以動這個帳號那家暴我覺得他應該也可以列入吧因為我們現在我們現在討論的是他是有問題的人他是有對這個被害人造成傷害的人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6080.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6109.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以你也支持就對不對是的那因為我們的家庭暴力防治法是列在民事訴訟就是民法類型所以叫民事通常保護令所以在立法原則的時候它不是用刑事法的概念去處理但是現在國內已經陸續一直發生這麼嚴重的人命的死亡那麼參佐國外這些先進的法它是跟刑事犯罪不同刑事犯罪是為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6112.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6127.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
維護國家刑法權跟社會安全秩序但是這個家庭暴力是維護人民所以國外有這樣的電子監控那我再請教警政署的我們的警政署的副署長我們廖副署長廖副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6134.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6161.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
副署長好你們負責執行嘛那請問加害人靠近被害人的時候這個警察現在是不可能知道的對不對你們只有等事後才那個嗎就是如果被害人有跟我們110報案或者是有通知我們當時有你要他能報案啊萬一像最近發生的事情他連報案的機會都沒有啊對不對所以我認為警政署你們的態度如果說有這種系統的話你們會不會覺得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6162.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6190.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
如果有這樣的警示的系統應該是對被害人的安全比較有及時的保障好 謝謝我們的副署長那我再請教教育部教育部副市長我們副市長 許副署長因為交往暴力 家庭暴力很多是從學生時期就開始發生你們除了寫在職營裡 老師知道要怎麼辨識嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6192.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6219.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們有制定那個相關的工作手冊然後來協助一些的人員我們也會辦理相關的一個培訓的一些工作法案演習那校安系統有沒有一套真正能阻止這個事前預警的事後通報的流程我們校安系統的話我們都是規定說24小時之內就要通報那另外其實我們有當事情發生的時候我們的學生是自保呢還是你們可以幫他擋沒有嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6222.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6244.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們校園人員一定會進行相關的協助來得及嗎因為我們現在的管理的那種方式我們校園的管理方式你認為來得及嗎我們如果有接獲相關的保護令的通知的話我們第一時間我們會如果今天我們現在講這個東西就是我們的預警系統如果有的話會不會更好你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6246.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6251.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
如果站在被害人的立場的話,當然是會更好好謝謝,那我再請教法務部啊來,陳市長我怕他們坐著無聊啊這個法務部啊那你們有沒有,剛剛有講到修法的部分是在衛福部是嗎?對所以法務部也是沒有意見就對了? |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6272.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6285.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們尊重衛福部業務單位的政策規劃所以部長我這樣看幾乎每個部會都贊成我想了解我們部裡的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6286.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6313.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好 我剛剛已經跟王詠敏委員報告過我們保護是不是要參考英國家庭內帶法在增設電子監控體系條款看起來各部門都覺得這個是一個值得因為全球是有利可循的啦西班牙也有法國也有韓國 美國都有我們會以最快的適度跟司法院法務部內政部檢政署大家一起來研商然後一個月內會提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6314.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6321.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們N商的一個報告所以你剛剛講一個月之內要開會嘛能不能半年之內提出草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6322.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6342.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
提出草案,如果我們一個月內大家都覺得有共識的話當然六個月內我們可以提出草案我想大家都對這個有共識這個接受到文明的保護對,這個既然大家有共識,我們希望他趕快,盡快完成好不好好,我們也會盡快,盡快來完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6349.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6378.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那委員會在這邊宣告齁我們蘇昭偉諮詢完就休息十分鐘齁謝謝接下來請廖偉祥委員來做宣達謝謝主席請邱部長然後請這個法務部的代表來張司長委員長好然後還有警政署的代表來廖務署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6380.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6393.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
第一個我先請問一下法務部的代表根據統計108年到113年的家庭暴力通報次數從16萬件成長到22.2萬件也呈現逐年成長的態勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6398.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6421.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
整體的案件數提高了30%那當然光看件數不能單純的獲得這個特定的結論啦甚至我們也可以理解到或許也越來越多在家庭內或親密關係內的這種暴力的零容忍的觀念的提升或者對於暴力樣態的這個認識度的提高所以造成這個同胞件數的提高是這樣嗎法務部代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6423.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6433.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
加報案件數的提升當然跟加報法實施以後各部會也做了相關的宣導以及人民的自我保護意識的提升對於違反保護令的件數根據你們法務部的統計也是從110年的1758件成長到113年的2389件大概2400件左右成長也超過了35% |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6450.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6477.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那今年的1到6月累積是1226件所以這個推估起來今年底可能違反保護令的件數又會再創新高那所以這個部分就不能用剛剛所謂的可能社會觀念的改變來解釋畢竟通報加報是一回事那對於通報核發保護令之後他又再違反這是一回事等於是這一些違反的人是視法律制度於無誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6478.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6496.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
想要請教法務部的代表要怎麼樣去解釋就是以你們的觀察或者是以這個警政署不曉得你們有沒有相關的觀察為什麼這個違反保護令的件數案件不斷的提高是執行力不足呢宣導落差還是制度上的保護令的嚇阻力不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6499.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6526.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那個違反保護令罪案件的一個提升當然就是被告他忽略了這個保護令的這個要求那被害人呢對於被告違反保護令罪的時候呢那他也願意來向相關的單位來提出報案那這樣也是其實也是一個剛我們講的就是大家對自我保護一事的這個提升那你們在這上面有沒有什麼想法或精進的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6528.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6538.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
針對那個被告呢他如果有違反保護令罪那假設呢他的這個情況可能有反覆實施之餘那情況嚴重的時候那當然檢察官會依照刑事訴訟規定來這個申請羈押好那目前看起來因為成效還是不斷的上升那我再問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6546.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6570.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
現行的家庭暴力防治法的第29條第30條相關規定那我想要問這個警政署的代表警察得進行逮捕違反保護令者或者是家暴的現行犯嘛但是實務中有非常多的違反行為的規定比如說如突然靠近啦訊息騷擾啦這些都有一點難以舉證而且有一些是未達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6571.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6586.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
逮捕的標準然後甚至像這種突然到場很多人可能也不曉得情況那想要請問一下警政署你們在實務操作上是不是也有類似的困擾舉例而言就是這一次信義區的這個家暴殺人案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6586.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6613.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
雖然被害人早已經跟這個加害人已經這個離開他的遠離他的同居處那也有住在這個有門禁的大樓但是他在工作地點還是會或者是他不管是不是在工作或是他出去不管到哪裡都可能會被家暴者追堵或者是並且傷害或是殺害那最終就是沒有達到預防的效果所以從這個事件來看我們呈現兩個問題第一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6616.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6640.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
在當下員警在首次排解爭吵的時候我舉例吧我是員警我也不曉得嘛是否就可以得知目前的兩照是正在申請保護令的對象這是第一個問題喔那第二個問題就是說那家暴者如果在工作場所被追堵的話這個被視為高風險的對象他有沒有更純粹勸離對方可以有一個更積極能夠採取的措施好 像我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6645.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6667.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們向委員報告這個如果說是雙方兩照都有在申請保護令的話我們在我們的NPLACE的通報跟我們的系統裡面是員警是會知道雙方可能有護告啦或者是可能有都同時申請保護令的這樣子的申請中的也會知道申請中的也會知道嘛對不對但是這個會有多少時間差呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6670.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6688.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個時間差就看這個通報就是我們的這個受理的之後我們系統會有這些通報的時間應該是時間上不會很多不會很久但是我們還是要等法院審理的結果好那剛剛第二個問題呢就是有關於這個除了勸理之外有沒有什麼積極的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6690.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6706.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們員警在受理家庭暴力案件的時候第一時間就會提醒被害人他要做好一些自我保護的措施我們會提供他一些訊息譬如說我們的報案的電話或者是他如果有狀況的時候他要跟我們警方來報案我們會加強他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6708.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6721.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
住居的所的安全維護或者是他的工作地點的安全維護像信義這個發生的這件案件事實上他的住家是在文文三二的轄區那文文三二分局也有抱怨去做那請問你們有沒有對於這種比較高風險的做一個研擬做一個名單的管控或等等的像這種高風險我們都是網絡的合作會召開高風險家庭會議的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6731.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6755.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那針對被害人的需要我們去採取相關的保護措施好那再進一步問喔其實我想也有很多委員有提到就是說還是想要請教那對於你們大家對於這個接下來針對國外有的這種科技的做防制的部分是不是大你們你們的態度是怎麼樣都都贊同嗎還是目前為止你們覺得過去為什麼沒有推行有沒有什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6757.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6773.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
過去我們的網絡裡面的合作我們是跨機關的一個通報那對於這個被害人如果他有安全的顧慮我們是用我們現在緊急包含的系統那如果說有一些科技的設備是可以來了解這個加害人他目前是 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6773.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6797.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
有危險的狀況要來接近這個被害人那如果有這些警示的系統基本上我們是支持的你們是支持的嗎好那這個法務部支持嗎然後警政署支持嗎那法務部剛剛是不是也說表達也相對支持我們是尊重那個衛福部的這個政策規劃但是這個部分可能就是在執行上會涉及到一些人力經費的問題那我想請問一下衛福部部長針對這個事情那過去有討論過這個方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6803.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6828.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
有曾經有討論過曾經討論過那為什麼不做因為考慮到安全隱私技術各方面的一個那現在還會遇到這些問題嗎還是你們就是覺得遇到這個事情你們就要有Guts去做去推動好我們一定有Guts去推動那我們會立即我們會參考像列出來的幾個特別是英國的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6830.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6849.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
電子監控條款我們將於一個月內之內司法院法務部跟警政署來延伤但是我擔心的就是你所謂的延伤喔因為你之前你剛剛說以前有討論過結果又沒有進行沒有執行或者沒有修法那這個部分到現在為止你可以排除這些問題了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6853.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6859.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我看旁邊有點尷尬所以這個部分是不是可以市長簡單把過去的擔心跟我們報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6861.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6887.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這一定要立法那立法就是要有共識那它其實最大的問題還是在誰執行執行這件事情電子監控這個執行所有的刑事案件它是有透過保護管署跟檢察官那我想在司法體系裡頭有這樣的一個做法但是在民事保護令那將來到底這個部分電子監控這個執行到底要誰恐怕是最關鍵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6888.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6906.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以你們在立法裡面你們在修法的裡面就要去去演繹出來到底要由誰來執行嘛對不對那為什麼以前沒有這個去演繹說由誰來執行呢還是大家都不想做大家都不想碰那時候共識不足那共識不足的就是根本原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6908.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6922.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
還是在執行到底誰那當初是大家都覺得那我問你了接下來假設要你們要推的話那你一樣還是遇到一樣的問題嗎那你的解方是什麼或是你你認為是哪一個單位該去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6923.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6948.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
目前保護令的執行是法上面定是緊任機關那是啊所以將來如果是保護令也放在保護令的電子監控也放在保護令恐怕也會延續這樣的一個對那剛剛我們想警政署的代表也表達說他們贊同所以代表這個應該現在沒有這個問題囉是不是這個立法案推動修法可以更快呢我是追問前幾個委員的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6954.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6960.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
要不然到時候就變演繹然後非常演繹再演繹然後再發生一條話這個社會的壓力又更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6961.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6986.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我跟委員說明因為保護令的執行有一大部分是由警察機關來執行那有一部分是像會面或者是不動產禁止使用等等不一定是由警察機關來執行那如果是屬於有危急的情況譬如說他違反保護令罪確實經過評估是高風險的對象限縮這些對象去做這些電子請問我想以後可能在外部在召開會議的時候大家可能要進一步來做一個研商 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6987.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6997.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
所以你還是沒有辦法延長出到底那誰要去做這件事因為感覺我剛剛問衛福部的意思就是說就是卡在這裡嘛那這個部分那你們要怎麼達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6998.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7023.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
會不會到時候演繹了一大堆就是說我大家我同意我單位也同意我同意但最後說那誰要做不關我的事就是如果有法律的依據因為民事保護令是民事但是如果是違反保護令罪他就進入刑事進入刑事的部分有強制的處分他可能法律的依據就我們在執行上就會變成是警政署這邊就他們就你所以等於是到時候如果是用這個這個執行單位像剛剛衛福部講執行單位可能最終也是要請這個警政署這邊來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7028.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7040.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那這可能也涉及到像防務部或者是像我們這個警察機關中間的一個聯繫好沒關係部長我跟你講這一次就是把這個問題也攤開嘛為什麼卡住的問題也攤開所以這一次請把這個問題根本問題解決然後我們具體的推動這個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7046.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7067.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以你一個月裡面研議嘛就是你每個月裡面要召開然後可能就要找出到底要由誰來執行這件事我想這個問題就是這個根本原因是這個所以一個月應該夠吧我們政府會很有擔當來處理這件事情因為我在持建議我是覺得保護令不能是萬能的不是萬能符咒所以這次有很多說事務商這邊隨便說因為一次的經驗讓我們要來精進來把它做得更好這是應該的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7072.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7084.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
另外即便在科技再怎麼進步其實我也要再點出一個問題當然這不是可能部長部長這部分也是就是說這一次這個受害者的妹妹也有說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7085.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7106.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
反正做了這個事台灣殺人人沒死刑嘛所以在這個讓一般社會認為實質廢死的情況之下我想包含的最近有幾個案件除了這個之外還有土城還有這個土城姊妹信義區的夜店公關到前天啦啦隊的經紀公司的老闆在便利商店被人尋仇刻意殺死 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7107.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7132.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我想我想要下一個小結論就是事實上這個死刑對犯罪或是刑法對犯罪者的嚇阻力正在降低而且在社會在民眾的心中都覺得這些刑法是沒有辦法保護人民的安全所以我們國民才會發出這樣子尤其受害者家屬才發出這樣子的一個怒吼希望今天有權的機關或者行政機關應該要看到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7134.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7142.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那再來我想要再補充不好意思喔這個主席讓我再加一下加一下今天下午又要審查保安書文特別拜託各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7144.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7163.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好那我再補一下就是說這個跟衛福部也有關係喔在這個我就講快一點啦簡單來講目前為止地方家暴受力中心跟庇護所的人力床位都不足所以被害還好被害子女也無法同住的狀況也影響這些被害人的求助的意願所以部長知不知道這個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7164.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7180.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
了解那你們對於這個東西有沒有什麼規範要不要住進去譬如說我們短 緊急的話那個在15歲以上的就不太方便那有時候這樣家人就覺得啊這樣所以你目前有經濟改善的作為嗎那我想我們是多元化的它可以我們可以補助譬如說社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7181.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7197.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
安排社會住宅補出租金,不一定是說一定要到那個地方批物所去那批物所有批物所的一個管理的規則以及它的限制,我們也多元化的來處理我們一定會協助縣市政府來增設,如果有必要的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7204.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7226.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好 最後我想要再 最後一題啊 不好意思高雄啊 這個也是酸石試題喔這個這幾天南部下大雨結果高雄在路邊長了一堆的香菇喔我們請警政署的代表回答一下就是結果我們看到警察人力被大量的叫去說把這些香菇拔掉那其實也讓人覺得欸 很奇怪啊 這個應該是員警的工作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7228.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7249.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這樣子讓基層員警去做這個拔香菇的事情就是你的看法和你的感想是什麼他是真的該是他們去做嗎那這樣不會耽誤其他人民真正覺得說警察應該幫忙做的事嗎他現在光手上的詐騙犯詐騙案件或者是這些事故案件或者這些要追找犯人的案件就是很多那怎麼叫他們去拔香菇 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7251.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7276.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
這可能是員警自發性認為說可能有這個障礙所以協助排除我想要請署長去查一下到底是誰下令叫他們去拔香菇的是高雄市警察局嗎這個部分可能我們要再了解一下他們說一個晚上把它全部拔光我不相信它是自發性的喔好了解後趕快跟六委員做回報好不好好謝謝六委員謝謝部長謝謝市長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7280.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7293.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
還是麻煩各位黨團助理跟後續要來詢問的委員提醒一下好不好今天因為下午要審查法案當然我都可以給大家比較長的時間啦謝謝那接下來請蘇清泉、蘇昭偉來做詢問謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7298.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7320.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
有較正常,你比較特殊當然來,部長休息一下,不然太累了我們保護司張市長還有司法院的中廳長,法務部的張市長跟內政部警政署的廖副署長這樣好嗎?好,不然叫起來比較麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7326.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7346.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
周道軍署長也厲害謝謝謝謝主席我請問,因為大家問很多了我請問我們一個申請保護令申請然後我們現在的檢察官、法官都很認真一個保護令要下來要57天、58天、60天請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7353.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7375.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
侯部跟司法院,你們為什麼這麼久?是,謝謝委員委員,這個裡面有三個因素第一個就是把所有核發的都一起統計那這裡面有三個因素,第一個就是需要開庭舉證、收證 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7376.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7405.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
第二個就是需要主管機關交房中心提供這個訪視報告第三個需要安排兩個禮拜到四個禮拜的對加害人的處理計畫鑑定基於這幾個因素那最後一個就是目前社會變遷許多的要離婚的要侵權的都先來打這個家庭暴力那這個所以我們分析完真正典型的家庭暴力其實沒有到五十幾天啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7406.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7417.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
大約一個月到40天典型的就會發出來去年新增有幾件?去年新增113件,我們不要說114件,去年新增有幾件件?去年的通常保護營的新收件數是22,582件何存的幾件? |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7430.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7435.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
合準的12457件合準的22582件是新收 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7455.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7471.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
然後核准的因為他這裡有三個數據第一個是核准12457件但是呢市政部署沒有反覆實施的駁回有4640件然後撤回的高達5404件什麼意思叫撤回 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7475.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7495.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
就是因為被害人認為不需要了但是我們對這個有很嚴格的控管因為怕被威脅或被不自由的撤回所以會跟社政單位跟我們住交報服務處那這個就是那個衛護部保護師要做的事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7496.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7507.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那些撤回的無緣無故撤回是去用凶狠啦或是去用揮揮揮揮自由意願嘛好那是這一萬兩千多件的保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7509.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7535.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
下來到執行有沒有空窗期保護令一合發隔天一規定書記官就要立即用兩個管道處理第一個是通報這個被害人就是通知被害人還沒送達這個保護令的時候就要先通知同時通知加防中心通知加防官然後接著就 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7536.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7547.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
因為我看這四、五間台的因為保安還沒發布進行他就想說不知道會不會還在那裡觀望嘛保安一出來之後就略略說啊現在就叫你 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7554.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7572.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
警察去保護SOP都差不多在那一星期十天發生事情都在那裏把他抬起來 你看你有沒有看過那都是在那裏保護你出來 跟警察一起執行這就不是什麼社工 社工哪有那樣的領域啦那些叫財暴力行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7573.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7592.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那你警察,你警政署這段時間,你是馬上啟動,就像通緝犯,或是說判刑的,你就整個海港靠山都開始封鎖,那這種的,有SOP嗎?有SOP嗎?警政署,你只要縱放這裡的人,只要在那十天,兩星期, |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7596.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7619.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
家防官有一個做執行命令就是執行那下面的執行程序是不是我們的所以你的保護令都沒有好嘛 會址一張嘛保護令一出來 立功就開始發了 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7621.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7622.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們接到保護令有保護令的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7642.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7643.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這樣有可能會用台嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7669.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7673.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
因為有的時候相對人他 董事長幹什麼修衣啊 修衣啊都抬抬膝這樣 看起來真的很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7680.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7701.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
你們是在說假的嗎我們都會對相對人告訴他保護令合法的內容他要遵守的事項那是不是他因為你是跟當事人還是被保護人跟相對人那我們現在對於被害人的部分我們會提醒他他要注意他自己本身的安全有什麼情況要跟我們警方聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7703.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7712.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
看到這個被保護的人,看到那個保護人員,他就誤認為這個保護人員來了,這副政府,這大廠的副領,大井大澳,井沙澳市,就沒事情了所以說歐洲人站在那裡,去菜市場,去什麼,就在那裡出事,對不對?通常都是這樣,香港的警察也這樣,新北市也這樣,一宿都這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7727.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7737.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以這給被保護者有一個不當的期待跟誤解說這下就沒辦法結果沒辦法所以這要怎麼補救我時間只剩9分12秒跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7744.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7767.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那這個部分我們未來在保護令執行的這個部分我們會在這個針對相對人他的約束或者是告誡或者是他有沒有什麼暴力的這個行為我們會加強來做提醒被害人如果有狀況要跟我們聯繫那至於對相對人的這個行為的部分因為我們沒有辦法24小時去監控他的這個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7767.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7794.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以我們就是會讓他知道他必須遵守保護令的合法的內容所以違反保護令的被抓去結果被判刑有罪的才五趴 六趴 對不對你違反保護令一年一件 結果五趴六趴下去對那些人有什麼疫苗花針的有什麼勞役的 十六個月內的你們的命就很輕的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7796.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7819.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以這你們就要跨部會,要好好的coordination一下,不然會怎樣呢?這讓我們感覺到信心崩潰嘛,這個保護令行動沒有效你說社工,澳普你們的社工,也說是修到,你們做什麼?你們做什麼?準備要修理還是要修理? |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7821.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7845.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
如果是高危機案件我們當然加強他的安全維護那必要的時候如果他也允許同意那我們的庇護安置我們當然是極力的推薦如果必要離開這個住所那他也可以除了住庇護處所之外另外也可以有一些所以他如果要轉別的地方住你可以幫他找就對了是要怎麼找 找去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7847.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7875.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
當然要考慮到他有沒有一些其他條件例如說他有沒有工作的需求或者孩子有就學的這些狀況都會做一個評估所以這個是知識體大你不要隨便答應安置他整個被愛人被保護人小孩子要就學什麼的你們有能力嗎現行就有相關的機制在處理有成功的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7876.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7890.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
當然有我想就是說每一個案件它都有它的獨特性那法律規定你把那個先公的或是說安置好誰的哪幾個案子來給我辦公室好不好那你們各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7891.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7917.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
各個法部會這個一定要保護令開始有效了您特別要嚴格執行尤其是那個加害者要如何去給他監控不然的話這根本是倆共不定時炸彈這個事情還會繼續發生啊好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝書偉 謝謝各單位好 謝謝 謝謝好 委員會剛剛有宣告是到蘇州委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7927.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7942.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好 謝謝主席主席我請一下警政署張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7955.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7955.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
來有請張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7970.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7994.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
署長我們今天雖然是討論保護令的問題之所以會有保護令是因為先有暴力行為才有保護令所以前後端都跟警政署有一定的關聯假如說社會的暴力氣息有被 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7997.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8015.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
警力所壓制那保護令的合法就會少那當然合法以後我可以體諒人力上跟制度上確實警政體系有一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8016.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8041.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
有一點點困難 這個我可以理解是這樣子 我們警力已經不足就是因為警力不足 所以才我剛剛才說的那段話警力不足呢 就必須要由署長來做一些作為署長你知道我們現在員警每個月可以加班的時數是到 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8042.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8069.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
每個月可以加班時數多久大概會到80到100個小時80到100勞工最多一個月是46小時表示員警是比勞工更血汗除了加班時數超時之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8071.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8085.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
加班所得還有一些問題這個我不是第一次在質詢來講喔這個在署長剛接任的時候我就已經有找過警署政署的人來開國會因為這個是一個很嚴重的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8090.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8110.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
員警從警校畢業以後第一年投入服務以本本計算他每個小時加班時數大概是182元啦現在勞工的最低基本時薪大概200多塊已經到190了而且我們現在講的是時薪喔假如說是勞工一般的加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8120.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8133.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
是前兩個小時要加成三分之一後兩個小時要加成三分之二的那我們連最基本的超時然後又給的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8136.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8161.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
給的津貼又嚴重不足這個恐怕對於警力的缺口會是一個很大的原因基層員警大概必須要我幫署長算了一下基層員警大概必須要服務滿14年以後才可以領得到每個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8163.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8168.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
超勤獎金19000必須要14年啊所以這個這個問題我希望署長能夠能夠趕快回去回去做個做個處理因為你要要讓整個警政體系完整你必須要先善待你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8194.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8200.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個對他們太不公平了第二個問題我想要請問一下署長立法院三讀通過的警察人員人事條例修正案任職滿15年所得替代率就可以到達43.25%其後每年增加1.75% |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8220.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8231.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
任滿36年可以領到80%這個案子啊 行政院有有有復議 復議之前有沒有徵詢過署長的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8235.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8260.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個部分好像還沒附議喔 嫌棄人還沒附議還沒附議 這個案還沒有附議 跟委員報告那這個案我也跟委員報告 就是說這個我們立完通過的這個警察民事條例對於警察的一個所得替代率最高可以達到這個上限是80%那這個案我們跟全序部現在正在做這一個在規劃當中 這個已經附議 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8263.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8286.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
否決啦 你們現在在討論的是要不要釋憲啦這個已經賦予遭否決啦這個已經賦予遭否決我現在是問說他要提賦予之前有沒有徵詢你的意見沒有 應該沒有那署長你個人支不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8287.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8305.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
行政院提復役以及對立法院的否決有什麼看法我個人的看法是對於警察人員的工作是非常辛苦不管是在職或者是退休的我個人的立場應該都是要去照顧也就是說署長是反對復役的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8312.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8338.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我想這個基本上就是我的個人的這個看法就是應該是要來照顧我們的警察同仁署長你這樣子講就是指控執政黨不照顧警察不是這個意思就是說我現在是問署長說對於行政院的復議因為事先 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8340.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8349.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那我也覺得行政院的復議太草率就他怎麼復議之前不跟不跟你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8350.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8376.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
不徵詢你們的意見那這個跟警政署有直接的關聯怎麼會不詢問你們的意見因為這個案裡面不是只有警察包括警察消防警察消防還有這些巡署的這個大概都是在警察人事條例裡面的一個適用的這個對象消防他也要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8378.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8402.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那這個部分我想就是說這個對於能夠如果說能夠對同仁的這個相關的一個福利跟照顧如果站在警察的這個立場上我應該是支持我們的這個同仁的這種比較好的就好像是委員剛才您說的就是對於同仁的這個加班大概這個相關的這個時數的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8407.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8429.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
狀況 啊或者是他的這個工作量都比其他人還要大其實齁 其實 欸就是說假如說一般的因為我看你 你跟民進黨的黨政高層的關係非常密切啦所以我才問你這個 因為要不然一般來講正側面的東西我們很少問事務官啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8430.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8454.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那我現在是把你就是形式上是事務官,可是實質上其實你是有政務官的性質啦那你這樣子回答,其實這個問題你怎麼回答我都是接受的為什麼呢?因為你本來就是警政體系的大家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8455.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8466.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以你支持你不管是在職或退休的員工這個我都支持只是說在民進黨的立場裡面我剛剛講了就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8470.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8489.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
以署長的升遷的過程,我再界定署長,算是形式上文官,可是實質上是政務官。可是你的立場跟民進黨不一樣,我覺得我作為民進黨的從政黨員,我有一點... |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8493.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8513.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
覺得有點可惜啦,雖然我的立場也不見得跟民進黨完全一樣可是畢竟我是票選出來的嘛,所以我當然會有我個人的主張那我剛剛講了,你實質上是政務官的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8515.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8525.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
你跟執政黨的立場不同這個我替民進黨感到可惜最後一個問題就是署長你在去年5月23大概5月20幾號就接任署長所以今年1月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8545.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8568.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
今年一月份我們大概有全國有九位出任的一般縣市局長是九位出任這出任的局長啊就是有領地的將領啊那署長就是警政大元帥那這九個人呢都是經過署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8573.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8598.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
組長考核然後認命的我看了一下其中有四個有四個縣市首長 局長是由署裡面的主任跟組長升任對不對大概就是新竹市花蓮縣宜蘭縣跟澎湖縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8600.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8610.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那我提醒一下署長,就署長在整個公職的過程中並沒有爆出很大的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8617.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8633.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
唯一的爭議就是有一場宴會儀式有角頭在同桌那當然也有很多人出來幫你作證那是一個緊正的聯繫參會市長我是這樣,我這人不講假話 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8641.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8670.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
也不會在執行台上濫用免責權謝謝謝謝委員那我現在講這件事情就是要求署長這四個縣的警察縣市的警察局長是你任命的本席要求署長在一個月之內將這四個縣市的警察局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8671.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8692.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
從今年1月到任以後參與的參會參與的參會有沒有是不是每一個參會都具有公務性質還是拿著警政署的招牌哎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8694.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8722.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
在地方每天都在做參會的聯誼參會聯誼不是不行我先講了署長也有去參加參會那參會我們會遇到誰我們很難控制對不對民意代表也會有這個問題可是假如說你參與的參會太多或者是說你不是巧遇而是由誰招待 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8723.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8741.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
懂我意思嗎 懂那就請從今年1月到7月底這四個縣市的警察局長參與參會的數量頻率是不是合宜參會的成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8745.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8755.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
有沒有具備特定不適當身份譬如包商或者是有幫派背景的人員在內由誰買單由誰買單為什麼買單齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8766.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8787.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
一個月你們查得清楚嗎可以我來處理因為這個很容易啦這個就是你們只要出勤可能有記錄嘛那局長有司機有隨扶看他的用油車子跑去哪裡四個縣市都要我們澎湖啊出產最多的叫做油脂 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8793.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8815.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
就是旅外的鄉親很多我查過了這四個縣市的警友會裡面都有很多我們澎湖鄉親在裡面所以我這邊就新竹市宜蘭縣花蓮縣我自己也會有一定的數據請署長在一個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8821.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8839.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
你要資料要提供給未完委員會還是提供給我個人可以讓你選提供給委員好好謝謝謝謝署長好你是謝署長還是謝主席講清楚吧謝謝署長好謝謝署長謝謝委員好謝謝主席謝謝主席請回報謝謝主席好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8847.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8874.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
好謝謝,那楊偉先暫行不能離開好不好?因為你破案的規矩,現在林慧琼也說他又怎麼樣,所以就請楊偉你來主席台下好不好?突然要不要一起?對不對?還是你可以等?等一下,可以等,就你幫主席全局戰鬥你就說你不能等嘛,他覺得還算可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8876.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8890.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
請林委員重新公告委員會重新公告就圖詢集委宣達結束之後我們休息十分鐘接下來林業勤委員來做宣達請楊委員請你到主席台來一下,快點 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8895.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8908.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
來,林衛情委員你要找誰?快點,你要請誰?不是啊,你要請誰?林衛情委員你要找哪一個?你要請哪一個?麻煩我們的衛福部,警政署法務部跟司法院來,請邱部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8916.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8940.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
委員好 莊委好 主席好那之前土城家暴命案當中加害人決定違反保護令造成憾事7月16我就已經在司法法制委員會就已經就保護令的問題進行質詢也沒有想到7月30號又再度發生類似的悲劇這是制度長期失靈的結果我要強調的是保護令制度本身不是失敗 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8941.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8970.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
而是執行面出了問題 制度的每一個環節都應該負責 而且要有一些改善的空間就是我今天要質詢的重點因為光是7月就發生了五起違反保護令的案件 然後奪走了三條人命7月7號的那個土城案 後續還接連發生7月8號 7月22號 7月24號 甚至7月30號再度的出事所以想問衛福部 你們7月14號也開了跨部會的會議有用嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8972.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8989.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
會議也開了 照理來講 你如果7月14號開你7月8號發生 7月14號開那照理來講 後邊的應該都會阻斷可是看起來開會是沒有用的嘛在跨體系基金 跨轄區 風險資訊還有風險資訊整合的層面其實都有精進之處啊所以在7月14號的檢討我們就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8992.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9014.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
對你會議當中說針對系統落差進行檢討提出五項決議強化教育訓練這個當然是我覺得百年大計一定要做的那研議跨峽的一個通報跟應變的機制盤點形式程序的銜接針對雙項加害跟被害的一個案件的指出提出的新的指引還要請新北市提供心理 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9015.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9034.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
心理支持也是後端可是這些措施到底有沒有直指核心因為真的針對保護令的漏洞警政跟社政的橫向聯繫本來就非常不良如果看起來加害人的風險沒有及時掌握就是說你沒有及時掌握問題做出改變所以跨部會的會議我不認為就是開了就好咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9036.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9064.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因為關鍵問題是要解決痛點所以要問7月7號到7月30號一連這個五個就一個五個月無期的命案部會之間到底真的動起來嗎所以第一點我要先問的是我們講法務部也就根據統計危難保護令的案件當中檢察官的申請的羈押的比例僅有7%法院實際裁定羈押的比例更低只有5% |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9065.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9081.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們一直在強調要防止再犯可是這樣的生壓比例顯然是很低根本沒有辦法發揮預防的作用而且現行家暴法的第32條雖然規定了預防性的羈押的可能但因為必須符合反覆實施等要件就是說有反覆有這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9083.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9106.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
導致在實務上幾乎難以適應運用就以7月起的7月發生的5起重大案件為例的話有4起都是等到再次供給才發生後才進行羈押我要問這樣補救真的能夠保護得了被害人嗎因為我理解有副院官就會指出說羈押可能只是治標然後呢集滿後還是有風險應該透過輔導治療治本可是實務上預防性羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9111.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9133.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
本來就是一個防止經營部危害發生的重要手段所以我們應該思考怎麼去加強風險辨識提高生壓率跟真正發揮我們積壓制度的保護功能所以想問法務部跟司法院這邊你們什麼時候因為我上次7月16就也有問過你們什麼時候要啟動積壓制度的檢討是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9140.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9160.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
跟委員報告那因為羈押它是屬於一種干預人身自由的一個很強度的一個處分所以羈押的申請跟裁定都必須要符合法律要件遵守比例原則那申請案件跟裁定比例委員提到就是過低的問題那當然就是還是要看個案的事證具體狀況來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9162.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9189.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
判斷那這些案子發生以後我們也跟衛福部來充分的相關的提出檢討就是說我們在相關的案件裡面希望相關的警政單位或衛福部都能夠提供這些相關的資料給檢察官做一個通盤的一個參考那以供檢察官作為是不是要申請羈押的一個依據可是上次在土著案的時候我在7月16在我們的司法法制執行的時候我也有跟你們講過說當天 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9192.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9204.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
如果不是我們的婦幼檢察官值班因為當天不是嘛那如果以後外是這樣子的話你們如果針對高風險的家暴個案建立明確的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9205.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9231.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
標準來做生壓準則所以我自己在看這張案子家防中心的數據甚至到受害人再去警察局再度的因為保護令的問題然後他跑去再做報案對方又再度他公解的時候上次的案子就是因為檢察官因為警察送給我們的檢察官資料不太足夠檢察官又不是婦幼檢察官在值班的時候也沒問得很清楚然後最後就覺得裁定沒什麼問題然後走出去兩姐妹就被 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9232.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9260.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這個加害人 殺害了 那一樣的就是說今天如果這個整個的東西沒有很足夠的話 你們怎麼去判斷那你現在跟我講說 因為要啟動這個制度呢 可能有很多的要件才可以 可是如果你們前面資料都不完整的話 那你們跨部會開是在開什麼 如果資料完備的話 足夠讓你判斷說這個到底要不要生壓 那一樣的就是說你們後端又不去追查說前端你到底給了東西 所以我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9261.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9288.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那個土著案就很明顯的是前面兩邊給的東西都不夠清楚然後以至於後邊那一樣的如果你今天要啟動這個那你們對於這個的檢討是什麼有沒有回過頭來去要求前端要給出什麼東西來就是在檢討的時候我們就是有跟警政單位去提醒就是說你在詢問被害人的時候不是就他那一次發生的事件單純的詢問那次發生的事件而是應該要去詢問被害人就是家暴的頻率情節狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9290.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9316.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那整個在筆錄裡面去呈現就是呃呈現那個呃加害人他的這個家暴的一個狀況那土城內建就是因為在被害人的警詢筆錄當中就只問了那一次毀損的那個違反保護令的一個情形那對於他在五月到七月之間發生的那個家暴的事件其實在筆錄裡面是沒有去呈現那所以我們在檢討的時候就是說要提醒呃我們的警察同仁在詢問被害人的時候要提供這些你們提醒喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9317.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9342.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
在那個衛福部的部分呢針對如果是高風險的當然相關的高風險的評估資料要提供給警察官那讓警察官可以依據這些資料來判斷就是被告他是不是有可能有再犯之虞對那一樣的回過來看部長你們像這些相關的資料甚至我覺得警政跟衛福有沒有足夠的所有的訊息讓他們可以進行生壓的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9343.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9366.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
機制的建立 否則的話這些東西不清楚對他們就是可能會有一點誤判 為什麼就覺得還好就沒有去進行生壓是的 我想委員主持的這個重點也是我們再來精進的一個部分要跨部會不要再開會 開會如果開會 確實是要開會 開完會沒有更進一步的執行力的話 我覺得開會都是枉然喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9368.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9387.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那第二個是保護令申請到合法的空窗期應該怎麼做我們現在看到很多例子就是確定申請到保護令就沒事了嗎有時候我們覺得保護令反而造成更多人的傷害我不是說保護令不好是說今天保護令申請大家都覺得很安心結果沒有想到家人還跑到娘家去把 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9388.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9409.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
他娘家的親人都殺害 這過往的例子不斷的是在發生過去他在家裡家暴 可能他自己受害可是回到娘家的時候 反而沒有更多保護措施反而是讓他家人 全部的家 有時候甚至全家的家人都遭殃所以遭到我們的申請緊急保護令的加害人在核發初期 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9410.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9437.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
有時候是情緒會過度的激動這個時候是最 風險度事實上是最高的所以如果合法保護令卻沒有同步的去啟動保護措施跟相對人的輔導根本就是置於我們把我們的被害人置於高危險之下所以警政署想問警政署來做說明目前從保護令申請到合法的空窗級有哪些保護被害人的積極作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9442.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9465.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們在法院審理核發保護令之間依據申請的保護令的這個情況不同可能法院都需要做審理那我們在一開始受理的時候我們就會提醒被害人要怎麼樣來保護他自身的安全我們會提供他一些跟警察機關或者是跟我們社政單位聯絡的這個訊息同時也要提醒他他如果遇到什麼樣的狀況的時候要跟我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9467.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9496.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
代替的這個加防官來做聯繫來得及嗎 以前有時候我們都看來不及如果他如果跟你們聯絡的時候其實如果他我們原來有一個評估的量表就是高風險的評估的量表如果他填的是高風險我們也會把他列為是高風險的對象那你們高風險怎麼做是平常就會在那附近去巡邏嗎還是做什麼事就是如果被害人覺得有被跟蹤或者是可能這個相對人有出現在他的附近我們是會加強做安全維護或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9496.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9515.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
必要的時候我們會護送他比如說可能回家拿東西或者是可能有需要一些這個出庭我們會提供護送可是平常他還是生活在那個空間裡邊的話假如加害人要找到他那這個部分就是看被害人是不是要離開他目前的這個住居所到安置場所去 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9519.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9532.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
第三個是大家看護援會他們第一線的實務工作經驗保護令八成大概都是有效果不是說保護令沒有效果可是我們還是要預防憾事的發生那對於一些加害人或在分手爭奪監護權等 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9534.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9550.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
情緒激動的狀況那時間點通常風險會大大增加所以近期發生很多憾事大家都會被對保護令失去信心所以普遍認為說保護令只是紙上談兵實質無效這制度的質疑政府不能夠再裝作沒聽到衛福部應該主動 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9552.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9567.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
強化防線來贏回社會的信任讓大家覺得保護令是有效的所以衛福部是不是可以趕快修訂作業流程把高風險個案提報到高危機會議你的高危機會議一個月開一次坦白講像 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9570.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9585.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個7月就發生的無期如果你一個月開一次真的能夠應對嗎所以你看7月8號發生你們7月14號開會然後後面又陸陸續續發生所以我希望能不能讓整個系統可以及早啟動來做因應部長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9586.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9613.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好我想這個是一定要努力的方向那個而且真的應該要說實在要嚴密的來監控對那我剛剛提的你們到底資料可不可以串接像家防中心獲得的被害的那個資訊加害人狀況甚至警局如果他再度的有加害人對他有不恰當的行為他到報案的時候這些東西可不可以真的讓法院他檢察官可以做一個依據啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9615.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9642.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這個細節是不是那個市長先簡單報告一下如果高危機高危機有一個平台資訊串接沒有問題這第一個第二個我們在家暴法裡頭我們有建置一個家暴的資料資訊系統資訊系統是有提供給法官提供給檢察官提供給員警還有社工來使用所以事實上都有串在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9643.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9662.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
至於說後端有沒有去參考這些內容這個我就需要後續再去了解市長我不知道你們有沒有進行人身安全的危險評估包含加害人的暴力死有內外控的系統過往的犯罪紀錄個人的特質性格進行綜合性評估這些東西才能夠幫助現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9663.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9683.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這是實務現場的工作者給我們的是認為你們有沒有這麼仔細如果評估分數如果具有高風高危險的話聯絡人員就網絡的人員應該提高提到你的高危機會議當中來透過會議當中去做討論以被害人為中心來討論因應策略來保護被害人來約制加害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9684.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9708.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
有細到這種程度嗎目前的高危機的確是透過風險評估替打進到五分以上或者是社工的手動在這個高危機的一個網絡會議裡頭去討論至於說詳細的細節要到他個人的人格特質這個部分恐怕這個部分後續可能還可以再加強對你們可不可以開這樣的會議去討論這件事情否則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9711.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9739.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
你的高危機會議大概也沒什麼意義只是針對後來發生嚴重案子才做討論可是都已經事實上是來不及了那我也要說我在7月16的司法法制我就提過三點就是互為相對人的時候都要有明確的評估工具包含我剛剛提的還有過往的一個違規紀錄一定要送到法院跟檢察官的手中我也希望說法院或者是我們的警政單位都要知道這樣子的一個訊息還有家暴案件應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9740.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9760.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
指定具有附幼專業的檢察官來做處理而不會像上次土城案子漏死掉這一點所以今天請各部會這三點我不要再看到只有口頭的答覆所以可不可以把具體的改進計畫時程表然後你們現在各部會現在過渡期的做法跟處理方案是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9761.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9787.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
提供到我辦公室來再麻煩所以最後就是希望能夠強化司法法的介入跟風險評估希望我們的檢警司法必須要去整合衛福部的高風險的評估結果還請衛福部來主責跨部會的高風險家暴的即時反應平台要去做建置還有擴大被害人的保護跟支持體系這三項要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9789.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9803.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
請部長留步其他部會可以先請回因為最後跟這個課題沒有關係我先問部長你們衛福部現在說竟然預告說下午要修耳托法了你竟然去預告修正在我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9804.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9832.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
兒童照明福利機構的設置標準跟我們的兒少福利機構的專業人員的資格跟訓練辦法要放寬托嬰中心跟早療機構部分人員可採先用後訓的做法這邊我要表達一下意見衛福部你先用後訓你到底是要如何去做訓練今天照顧0到2歲的孩子事實上是非常年幼非常自若 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9832.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9851.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
托嬰中心不罰這幾年不管是不當對待或者是死亡的案子發生那你簽這個連基本門檻而且本來托育人員門檻就非常低你只要上過126小時就可以拿到托育人資格當然進入到托嬰中心還有一個門檻一定要拿到丙級技術證我回過頭來查丙級技術證 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9854.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9878.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
只要國中學歷就可以了那我不知道你先用或者他跟幼兒園跟國小不一樣你幼兒園國小你說因為人力不足的時候我說來找可是我還找大學畢業然後我趕快去做一些訓練可是問題是如果這個到底你們能夠確保品質嗎怎麼會提出這樣子的一個意見所以我就不太了解這樣的鬆綁根本就是把那個照顧品質下修開了後門下午還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9881.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9907.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
修兒托法 在兒托法沒修之前兒少全法的時候就針對保姆人員托育人員就有一些要求要求說126小時就OK可是你兒托法要更嚴說126小時都不行了結果你現在還要開放大門這個邏輯不是顛倒嗎本來我們下午的兒托法要把托育人員休嚴結果你現在又要來開放一個大門那下午兒托法要怎麼討論咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9908.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9936.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以想問一下你們的做法為何在這時候去提出這個那下午兒童法到底要怎麼討論報告委員我剪掉一下齁那個所有的兒少機構的人力或者保育員等等的他們的品質是我們非常重視而且跟各縣市政府齁大家共同在努力來保障這樣的一個品質那至於這樣的一個以先用後信周師長你會剪刊回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9938.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9964.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
這次的話是讓托嬰中心能夠去參考而消安之機構能夠讓在人力禁用困難的情況底下有一個相對緩衝的時間但是他能夠禁用的機構是有限制的一定是在評鑑夾燈以上而且禁用了以後機構一定還是有一個管制的措施署長我們都不是不知道評鑑是在做什麼啦我希望你們齁因為時間也到所以我希望你們好好考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9965.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9972.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
不要把孩子當實驗品以上也不要為了因為說人力不足就造成更大的傷害以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9990.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9993.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那先請我們邱部長還有我們法務部的張司長那我先請教一下我們張司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10013.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10032.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那我們最近你看這幾週內發生了這麼多政經社會的重大面案你看一個是我們信義夜店的割喉案那這個加害人他本身其實就有前科跟糾纏的記錄那第二件是我們土城的殺妻案 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10032.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10054.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那兇嫌你看在馬上違反保護令之後開庭然後馬上就犯下了這一起的兇殺案那第三件我們豐原的砍人案那今天早上凌晨我們嘉義又發生了一起家暴的兇殺案那這些共同點基本上他們都是有申請保護令對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10056.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10072.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那所以我們想了解一下你看這這麼短的時間內他們都有申請保護令然後而且還馬上犯下這麼嚴重甚至都有上命那請問一下那這個制度上是不是有出現了什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10076.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10093.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我先報告一下,我想保護民事保護令這個制度,其實是還是有保護被害人跟他家人的一個作用八成的加害人是不會再施保,但是如果有全科精神疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10093.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10107.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
或者嚴重暴力、脅迫等還有剛剛其實很多委員有指教在爭吵的那種特別是情緒比較不穩定的時候當然都可能會發生所以我們未來就是來精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10110.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10134.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
整個加強刑事的司法技術力還有網絡我們網絡共同來落實相關的安全計畫這樣來維護被害人的安全那至於空窗期的時候我們當然也是希望各個防治網的成員能夠提高敏感度加害人如果有跟蹤騷擾的情況我想警方應該依法對加害人進行查房約告誡 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10135.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10161.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
病逝危機的程度來提高頻率採取必要的安全措施對部長因為我們知道你看這麼短的時間內就發生這麼多嚴重的兇殺命案那據我們來了解每年申請保護令的數量我們看這111年到113年大概每年平均大概是三萬六千件那我們核發的數量大概有兩萬件那他現在這個保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10164.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10192.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
實施之後還是發生了這麼多重大的兇殺命案那我們想說這個是不是因為我們的罰則太輕因為看違反保護令這裡面有七成的被判拘役但是這裡面有九成五幾乎都是一顆罰金而且這個罰金大概都在三萬塊以下所以我們看起來這個處罰根本沒有威嚇的效果而且也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10193.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10219.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這裡面我們也覺得缺乏了我們強制治療跟行為矯正的問題所以大家一直說這個保護令根本就是紙上彈兵那是不是我們警政跟社福這些跨部門是不是應該要資源來整合來加強監督不然這個申請保護令看起來反而激怒了加害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10220.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10227.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
反而發生更多嚴重的事情你看像我們第一個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10228.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10255.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
信義區這夜店女公關這割喉案他的保護令7月29號生效結果7月30號他就受害那新北土城街頭家暴命案7月6號犯案7月7號上午開庭結果他下午就去發生了這兇殺命案所以照這樣子看起來反而激怒了加害者所以是不是針對這些問題我們應該要有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10258.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10286.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
比較好的方式去做處理不然反而這個保護令下去沒有實質的去做一些強制治療跟後續的社工去去跟監跟蹤處理後續的追蹤然後後續一些行為矯正的問題而且有些已經發生了結果說情節不重大就把它放出來一放出來以後結果發生了不可挽回的一些命案 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10287.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10300.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那是不是針對這一部分,我們應該做一個檢討、做一個討論是的,這個就是我們在精進的一個網絡的一個共同落實來相關的一個安全計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10303.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10319.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以我覺得這個後續申請保護令之後其實後續有一些問題像加害者甚至這個被害人是不是我們應該社工要去介入去追蹤是不是加害者在精神各方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10319.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10336.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
是不是有一些问题并不是申请保护令以后结果就不去管他结果发生了不可挽回的事情我们再来追踪一下因为其实我们现在社会上常常发生很多精神上面的问题结果很多的民众去报案 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10336.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10347.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
他們都說不會怎麼樣啊這情節很輕啊沒有怎麼樣結果都等到事情發生了以後民眾都講我早就已經講了結果連報警都沒辦法處理找各個主管單位來也沒辦法處理都等到事情發生以後才來檢討機制都有就是要落實那我想委員講的這幾個案例都在落實面的部分我們還可以在網絡之間彼此大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10363.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10381.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
來彼此提醒然後在機制部分再來重新做一些調整對像我們我請問一下部長我們跟地方法院是不是有推行高風險家庭的個案管理那請問一下這高風險家庭的個案這怎麼定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10384.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10395.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我們這個有一個評估,拼的量表來評估,有八個題目來評估,到達一定的分數的時候,就是列為比較高風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10397.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10419.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以其實針對這高風險的個案那我想請問一下像我們剛剛舉的這幾個例子它本身有沒有被列入高風險土城那一案後來有手動進然後台北市那一案是有兩案都有兩案都有列入高風險那有列入高風險我們後來有什麼機制去做處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10421.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10445.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
因為這個後來導致的命案真的來得又快又急那高風險的這個網絡會議都在進行中也在提醒被害人的安全跟加害人的行為的約制告解那都在這個過程都有注意但是就是在那個時間來得又快又急所以剛才前端早上有很多委員提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10446.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10453.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所謂的預警機制有沒有一些要服以電子監控這個部分這個恐怕是將來我們要來處理的問題它列入高風險以後是不是我們就會啟動這個儲遇計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10459.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10480.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
沒有 處於計畫是要到保護令法院要核發第十款的加害人處於計畫那個是保護令要有這個核發這一款才會有治療或者是輔導這個機制那他已經列入高風險家庭個案我們都社工都沒有去強制去諮詢去輔導甚至做一些精神治療這方面的問題去處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10483.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10511.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
在高風險的平台會議裡頭相對人因為他還沒有升級保護令他叫相對人那相對人有相對人的服務也就是說他也有社工那這兩岸的部分都有相對人服務但是的確這些案件社工在追甚至要提供服務的時候都約談不到都約尋不到這都是很困難的地方因為他沒有約束力那他就是一個服務方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10512.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10541.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
現在他們申請保護令之後其實反而發生了很多重大的兇殺命案所以其實保護令其實只是一個開端是不是我們後期應該針對他申請保護令之後甚至他已經列入高風險家庭個案我們就應該要有精神醫療跟社工強制去介入甚至像這些加害人就應該要去做一些輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10542.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10565.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
甚至要去做一些精神治療这一方面应该是要有强制力才对啊所以是不是我们这一部分是不是应该要修法增订我们精神医疗与社工强制介入的条文尤其他这个已经都列入高风险了结果你还是没有机制去做处理啊那这样子列入高风险家庭个案有什么意义呢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10568.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10583.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我想委員所提的這個我們會在精進的過程當中列納入來討論所以這邊建議部長我們就增訂精神醫療與社工強制介入的條文而且我們要設立高風險家庭個案處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10585.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10608.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個處遇專法機制針對這部分已經列入了結果你沒有實質的作為那列入根本毫無意義又是一個紙上談邊啊只是列入以後並沒有實質強制介入去做一些精神醫療或者社工強制去介入去了解去輔導甚至請他們去諮商做一些心理輔導一些的作為嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10609.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10627.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝委員提出這麼重要的一個建議我們在精進的時候其實我們也有朝這個方向在努力啦但是謝謝這個寶貴的意見一定納入進去來把它精進因為居然事情已經發生了前面發生的我們來不及彌補但是後續針對這部分我們這些增訂的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10630.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10643.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
還有該設立這些機制我希望部長們好好研議一下不然最近這個事情一連串的發生對於我們整個社會上治安上也是一個重大的影響我們也十分難過所以一定會精進來精進相關的一個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10646.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10673.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好 希望那個部長喔 這有些部分像我們社福啊 還有警政還有衛福 我們這個跨部會的來來去檢討 來去跨部會這個機制來把社福 政府一定合作來來處理這個問題好 感謝委員好 那請部長再多費心好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝主席 謝謝圖圖委員 謝謝部長呃 現在宣告我們現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10677.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10680.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我們這個10分鐘已經延後30分鐘休息了 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11376.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11399.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 我們繼續開會委員會報告因為我們中午還有一個健康保險資料管理的協商那下午還要再審查額托所以各位來拜託一下黨團的助理跟後面要追尋的委員再提醒一下大家事先上來掌握 謝謝接下來請黃秀王委員來做懸打 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11405.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11407.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
謝謝主席我們請部長來有請邱部長部長好部長從7月初到現在這個將近三個禮拜的時間颱風過後那中南部淹水算是還蠻嚴重的那我想請教就是說最近我們看到疾管署這邊也有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11430.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11441.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這個發布就是說有一些可能傳染病也好或者是水災過後可能會有一些這個疾病的一個發生那我想請教部長就是說針對這個中南部這個水災過後那我們衛福部有做什麼樣的就是說預防這個傳染病 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11449.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11475.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
或者是可能未來也有這個登革任因為今天開始天氣放晴那像這樣子的話我們衛福部做了什麼樣的努力或者是說協助中南部縣市怎麼樣去讓我們的整個環境能夠更好那也許這個傳染病大家會覺得最近今天的這個報紙有提到就是說我們這個因為有汙水或者是汙泥那如果接觸的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11476.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11493.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
會有一些譬如說那個類BG這樣的一個疾病或者是登革熱或者是屈弓病這個是外來的境外的那我想請教部長針對這樣子的一些這個傳染疾病你們有做什麼樣的處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11494.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11515.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
好 謝謝委員的催省只要每次有像颱風或豪雨這樣成災的一個情況我們疫情除了說應變中心它有整體的一個處理我們也會報告醫療的狀況跟還有收容的狀況以外我們特別關心到 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11516.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11533.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
一個疫情的緩緩那也就是環境的恢復整潔這是我們最重視的那我們也會對針對譬如說積水沒有清之下可能會產生還有剛剛委員所提的類BG病還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11535.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11550.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
燈火熱等等的這些那甚至沒人進沒人可能傳達的疾病的病毒這個都是要處理那所以我們當然我們第一時間除了說在台北這邊幾萬時會針對疫情的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11553.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11563.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
發表說請當地的居民要注意哪些事情譬如說我們當然第一個希望你們是用宣傳的 或者是你們有什麼樣的協助我們莊仁祥署長也親自下到南部去指揮當地的一個我們各個地方都有防疫的中心然後跟衛生局跟環保局來討論 共同來討論怎麼樣做後續的清潔工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11578.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11596.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那最重要的是要先導出去比如說我們要裝你去清理的時候裝備一定要齊全還有當然飲食要注意還有清除資生源這個部分這三個部分我們一直在先導也一直在請當地的一個負責的不管是衛生或環保這個部分在努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11599.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11613.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
最主要是想要提醒衛福部因為前兩三個禮拜淹水今天天氣開始放晴放晴可能會有一些淹水過後可能會有一些傳染病或者是病沒穩或者是蚊蟲會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11615.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11642.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以我希望就是說衛福部不只是只有宣傳而已可能也要有一些實際的行動協助地方政府那我今天也看到就是說這個新聞有說疾管署這個副署長也有對外也有針對這個可能中南部淹水的地區要怎麼要去做一個防護或者是我們現在境外的這個屈公病的這個部分那我覺得說未來這個也是一個挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11643.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11660.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
如果說可以這個短時間內將這個家園恢復那讓大家過著一個正常的生活我覺得衛福部也扮演一個非常重要的一個角色所以我在這邊要再次的提醒部長就是說不只是只有宣傳啦應該也是要有一些實際的行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11663.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11676.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好的 我們也會督導消毒藥水也都會充分的來提供那當地的一個如果任何在環境的清潔 清消各方面有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11677.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11693.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我想我們二部這邊一定全力支持縣市來做相關的工作另外部長我想請教就是說審計部在113年這個總決算的審核報告裡面就特別提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11694.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11720.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
衛福部針對這個國家關鍵基礎設施是主要的這個領域最主要的一個協調機關那這個審計部這邊說好像都沒有看到這個衛福部這邊有什麼樣的這個會議那我想請教就是說部長針對這部分你們都已經被審計部這邊做一些修這個糾正那另外就是說我們要怎麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11722.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11740.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
做一個這個補救另外就是說目前在前些陣子就是說有一些部分的醫院他們發生這個勒索軟體的攻擊事件那其實這個也是一個關鍵基礎設施安全防護的一個這個最主要如果說我們做得好的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11741.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11769.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
也許這樣的一個醫院的這個軟體被攻擊的部分也許會減少因為醫院裡面所有的這個個資都非常的重要那我想請教部長就是針對這一部分你們到底有做什麼樣的補救或者是針對這一部分你們到底有沒有開會為什麼審計部說沒有那你們到底有沒有開會召集其他的這個次要的這些相關主管機關一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11769.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11783.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好的 審計部這個部分我們分兩大概兩方面來報告第一個就是在資安方面資安的防疫方面其實我們衛福部已經擴大將378家的醫院納入資安的防疫網那當時一開始就我們根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11789.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11818.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
一發生相關的資安的事情我們就開幾家大醫院嘛就資通安全管理法來盤點我國重度級以上的急救醫院共55家那所謂這個就是Critical Infrastructure就是關鍵基礎設施這個部分我們都給它完全資安的集合同時也成立了交戰總則用到所有的七八十家的醫院這個部分應該是算 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11819.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11834.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
還算在國際級的一個水準那另外一個部分是有關於那個國土行政院的國土安全辦這個部分因為是這樣子他原來有一個107年有一個鋼藥那在114年7月21號召開會議決定匯除這個協調的機關設置朝向 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11845.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11862.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
現在現行的執行三級的模式啦那這個來簡化的一個運作的危機運作的成績所以我們是按照國土的一個決議會函文到審計部跟他說明那這一另外特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11863.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11877.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
二部發了很多的力量在做醫療照護關鍵設施的一個特別是在基礎設施所以我們有成立67個CI就是關鍵的基礎設施包括疾管署 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11878.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11900.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
有幾個 指通醫療就是說如果你們有做的話也要說啦不要讓外界認為就是說這個審計部都跟你們糾正了然後你們好像也沒有開會我們除了會給回覆審計部以外我們也會把整條發新聞稿來說明另外部長我想請教因為這個都是很重要的我們工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11901.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11928.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
另外部長請教就是說今天很多委員特別提到就是說有關我們發這個保護令所以保護令出來之後那確實會有一個時間差會有一個時間的一個落差那到底這個保護令它是不是真的能夠保護到這個被害人那其實我們也會遇到一個問題如果是一個加害人他根本不甩這個保護令的話好像也沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11929.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11957.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
好像也沒有什麼更積極的一個作為來做處置那我想請教部長就是說針對這一部分如果這個加害人他完全就不甩這個保護令的話那我們要怎麼辦是的我想保護令的還是有他的應該有的話有功能包括有八成的加害人就不會再施保但是問題是另外你說八成那另外兩成的部分有前科的精神病或嚴重暴力脅迫的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11958.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11985.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
行為其實特別在離婚開庭採判前後那種可能情緒的一個部分對那如果像這樣子的話我們要怎麼做呢第一個我們要加強刑事司法的技術力第二個就是我們各個部會網絡的共同來落實相關的安全的計畫我想這個部分就是我們在精進的也是委員所關心的那至於在空窗期的時候我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11986.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12011.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
其實不只空中其他人,任何時刻我們都希望防治網絡的成員應該提高敏感度加害人如果有特別行為,像是追蹤、騷擾警方就要依法對加害人進行查訪、告誡或者是視危機程度來測驗所以如果像類似這個狀況,一方面可能會請警方協助那另外一方面就是社工,社工也會去協助嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12012.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12037.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那這樣子的話未來這個社工的這個案量或者是他的這個工作也更多所以我想請教部長就是如果類似這樣的一個問題那這個社工的這個部分是不是人力也要再增加要不然確實如果說你又要這個警方來協助然後社工又要到訪又要去訪視的話其實我覺得這個人力確實會 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12040.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12057.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
會比原本的可能還要再更多人來協助那我想請教部長未來這部分社工的人力的部分那你們是不是會因為譬如說這個縣市的這樣子的案量比較多的話那我社工的人力就要再增加是不是會有這樣的一個比例的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12060.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12085.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
就是只要人民安全需要的我想我們各部會一定要全力來配合沒有人力的我們就來增加人力在社會安全網方面會去做增加的一個工作那會看任務的一個環狀我想這個部分我們也會在社會安全網這個部分來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12086.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12099.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
好 我們不希望有再下一個這樣的一個這個悲劇發生我們絕對要努力讓它不要再這個問題發生好好 謝謝好 謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝 謝部長接下來請王振旭委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席有請部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12118.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12133.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
委員好部長好今天針對這個主題已經討論過非常非常的多不過我想還是針對於期待透過部長還有等一下我們再麻煩市法院中廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12135.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12152.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
總經理請稍待沒問題我是說有兩個我認為還是很重要的主題來跟部長來做討論一個就是風險級別評估系統一個就是電子監控被害人保護有沒有更精進的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12152.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12168.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那第一部分大家其實也都講非常多就是風險級別評估的問題在這個畫面上我們可以看到說其實衛福部本身他是要督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12169.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12182.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
督導各個直轄市縣市要做一個評估的機制然後針對相關的案件尤其是高度致命的案件呢需要暗夜來召開家庭暴力的高危機的網絡會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12185.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12201.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以我們也清楚這個上級機關他要做的事情就是督導那同時要去看這個網絡會議的內容有沒有落實那在113年全國一共辦理了589場的網絡會議一共有12,574件的高危機案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12208.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12228.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那其中後來解除類管的有53.8%是6769件那我們好奇的是那沒有列除類管的這些案件後來發生了哪一些的事情那最近陸陸續續發生的這幾個案件有沒有屬於這幾個案件裡面的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12230.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12249.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
當初在判定的時候是如何來做一些務實的操作所以這邊帶出了兩個問題第一個問題就是我們畫面上看到的這個評估工具目前處理的統一方式那有沒有確實的評估那評估的結果的準確性如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12251.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12266.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這個內部有沒有相關的管控機制可以讓我們了解那第二個部分就是後續我們剛剛所看到這些案件如果我們希望不要再發生的話那我們進一步的作為會包括哪一些請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12267.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12282.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好,我先跟委員報告,我們為了有效來跟快速來辦辨別有致命風險的案件所以我們衛福部發展了台灣親密關係暴力危險評估表,就是TIBDA |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12283.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12301.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那要求通報人員於受理親密關係暴力案件時應用這個危險評估就如同委員所提出來的來及早致命風險然後來做相關的討論那後續怎麼樣做好一個更好的管理是不是請市長檢要報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12302.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12327.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
謝謝委員那原則上這個替達量表就是我們在處理家暴裡頭的親密關係暴力他用的一個評估工具那他也是經過一個實證然後經過一個所謂的性效度開發的那目前全國都在操作而且他也SOP都很清楚包括解列指標等等還有誰來召開什麼時候召開哪些個案要進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12329.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12332.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
在全國各個縣市都有這樣的一個機制在處理是 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12333.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12358.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
其實我們也知道這個TITDA基本上它就是一共有15道題是用勾選的那大部分是警政人員在完成那我想社工室也會用這個來當作一個工具來使用這個相對完成率或者是要執行起來時間上不會太困難那我們比較擔心的就是這些評估以後它所要後續要處理的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12359.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12379.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那我們也知道當這個案子進到社工系統以後就有成員保護案件服務紀錄表那這個紀錄表就非常的辛苦它裡面有十個面向它要完成後續的整個連結這個處理上現在對社工師應該是非常高的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12380.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12395.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那我們目前社會安全網的2.0裡面其實也編了一些經費包括307億的經費那也要有9000多位的同仁一起來做好社會安全網相關的這些要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12395.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12417.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那可是我們的案件量這麼大那在兩個禮拜前我們去參加了有關於這些社公司的表揚典禮的裡面其實他們也反映出工作量包括多元而且他們非常的辛苦之下那如何針對於社會安全網尤其是家暴也是一個重要的工作那我們也看到這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12418.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12439.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
的案件出現的話那對於這些人力的安排預算的爭取不知道在下一個社會安全網第三期的計畫裡面如何來加強那這邊是不是已經有在編列相關的預算那如果需要更多的支持的話我相信所有委員一定會全力來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12442.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12466.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
家暴的確在這個三網2.0裡頭它是其中一大部分那關於人力的部分也都在2.0裡頭去做一些處理那在這麼大量的家暴案件裡頭我們必須要透過一個有系統有效率的一個評估工具來做案件分流處理那這個部分都是在安全網裡頭很重要的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12467.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12485.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
因為很快就要審預算那我們會很注意這部分的預算的編列狀況所以這邊就是會期待能夠建立一套這個科學而且是高風險的評估工具那我們也了解在西班牙是在20幾年前就已經把這個系統建立好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12486.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12513.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我們很期待台灣能夠盡速的把這個系統透過更好的方式不管是用AI或什麼其他的方式讓這個不同的分級的這種落實讓未來在執行的時候可以真的保護到這些被害人或者是相關的這些不管是加害人他需要後續的精神的支持或者是相關的一些處理模式都能夠把它建設起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12514.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12535.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那這部分我相信透過今天的會議應該給貴擔任人很好的解釋往2.0裡面有引進AI在處理這部分的資料所以這部分不只是衛福部本身還有包括法院、警政機關都應該能夠即時間接這個資料也都能夠同時來做建構 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12537.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12549.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那這部分的話就麻煩大家持續在努力那有關於後面的電子監控被害人保護的部分是不是麻煩這個中廳長來做個討論請廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12560.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12580.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
今天早上您有報告過後來很多委員質詢的時候也都可以得到您的承諾就是未來在相關的案件執行的時候在引用這個刑事訴訟法第110條之二的相關執法的部分是可以把它納為這個適當的科技設備監控的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12583.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12599.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這部分是沒有問題 是不是請我們先是聽呂法官做一個說明好 那就麻煩法官是 報告委員 那現在是這樣就是說一般我們家庭暴力防治法有分成兩個部分一個是家庭暴力罪 一個是違反保護令罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12600.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12627.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那如果是家庭暴力罪的話不管是家庭暴力罪或保護令罪如果檢管官有申請羈押那法院認為說沒有那個羈押的必要性的話是可以去適用到新縮法116條之二這時候就可以做一個科技監控另外如果檢管官認為沒有申請羈押的時候他在進行所謂的拒保責付限制住居根據117條之二的準用規定他本身也還是可以去做這些科技監控的措施是 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12628.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12648.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那看起來他的這個比例相對是低嘛那是不是在執行上有什麼困境實境上的困境除了法令的規範以外在處理上是不是案件本身會因為當初電子監控最重要的是希望要監控的對象不要逃逸啦或者是不要出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12649.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12672.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那這個相對來講他所需要的這些設備或者是他的這個電子監控範圍如果我們把他引用到這個法條來的話是不是會造成執行上的困難跟委員報告基本上來講就我們自己內部的統計資料在109年到114年1到5月間違反家庭暴力防治案件如果有經檢官申請羈押者基本上法院的准許比例都是在70%到80%之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12676.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12694.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
至於說有沒有使用到電子科技監控部分確實如委員所講的因為當初原始的設計是為了避免防逃再來另外一個就是說它本身因為違反保護令的本身的太陽很多因為所謂的違反保護令要看它本身保護令當初下的內容是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12695.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12717.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
例如說像完成儲育計畫或是禁止騷擾或是說不得跟監那內容不同的時候法院在這邊裁量的時候他本身也還是要再考慮到說那個所謂的比例原則的一個問題然後最後就是說在所謂的那個羈押的決定然後再犯的預防可能性這個地方的話其實法院端這邊會觀察就是說他有沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12717.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12732.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
就是實施家庭暴力行為的那個因子的收集資料有沒有提供給法院做一個判斷那例如說剛剛提到的關於親密關係危險評估表這部分如果有充分提供的話大概法官在做這樣的決定跟判斷時會比較有充分的資料可以做這樣的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12733.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12749.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
是 所以未來看起來法官如果要引用相關條文就從證據上如果有更多的支持的話他判定起來就更為能夠符合期待嘛是 架構上都有只是說在運用上這個部分可能個案的狀況可能會不一樣這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12749.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12764.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
是 那如果要引用這個家暴防治法第31條第1項第5款可以包括電子監控嗎未來如果要引用這部分的話我想因為刑事訴訟法跟家暴法之間就這個規範的法律關係一個是普通法一個是特別法的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12765.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12790.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那如果說刑事訴訟法這邊有規定的話家暴那邊雖然沒有明文規定可是他還是可以回歸刑事訴訟法116條之二去做規定再者可能要跟府委員報告就是說31條第一項有這樣的規定但是他第二項特別有規範就是說根據31條所做的這種處遇他的時間有時間上的限制但是回到刑事訴訟法這邊倒是沒有一個就比較不會有那麼多的限制對被案人的保護會比較充分 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12792.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12817.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
是 所以聽起來就是用行動法會是比較適當的引用沒錯 沒錯好 謝謝那最後就是有關於加害人監控跟被害人通報的雙向監控這個議題我們知道其實家暴我們最不希望看到就是家暴人會直接進到這個被受害人的領域裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12819.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12836.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
造成這個風險所以如何能夠讓這個被害人的這個雙向監控可以更落實不曉得未來在執行上法條上有沒有這個需要修法的需求那如果在執行上已經可行的話那是不是能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12837.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12862.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
法制面來把這個被害人納入這個通報對象意思就是說被害人他可以透過電子監控的系統知道如果加害人就在他的這個周遭的話他可以適當的採用一些辦法包括是尋求這個警方的協助啦或者是如何能夠保護他自己那這部分不知道現有的狀況如何需要修法或者是需要做哪一方面的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12863.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12882.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好 謝謝委員 剛才我們李法官所說明的是在核花保護令後違反保護令罪相關這種科控的問題那現在委員垂詢的是屬於說我們核花保護令的內容裡面那麼依照14條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12883.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12890.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
第三款是命他遷出第四款是遠離那這個遠離實務上就發生很多的狀況就是遠離100公尺200公尺那剛剛許多人以及我們的部長有說明了這個世界各國的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12900.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12920.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
針對這一塊是民事保護令的部分那它距離被害人接近了100公尺因為有科控的關係會有一個中心警報以及雙方警報這個是目前世界各國先進為了保護人命的措施我國目前現行法是沒有那大家如果有共識我們都贊同來討論來修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12923.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12945.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
以便利接近但是目前我們的遠離是以這個特定的駐居所還有工作場所還有學校還有經常出入處所那國外的我們看他是以人為核心那當然也有反對論就是說涉及揭露了被害人的隱私他在哪裡在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12947.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12967.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那但是因為被害人的人命應該比隱私在比例原則更強也有論則說國外為什麼先進國家會這樣就是為了保護被害人的人命所以他在民事保護令遠離100公尺內雙方都掛有那個電子監控中心也有一個電子監控以防他接近就可以逮捕以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12968.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12983.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
是 因為依據西班牙法國的制度事實上都是透過家庭暴力防治的內涵之下所處理的我相信透過今天的會議希望大家就能夠往這個方向來做這個研議的部分好 感謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝邱部長接下來請陳雪生委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12995.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13017.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
中午還有一個協商,下午還有一個法案審查好,謝謝主席,是不是邱部長邱部長邱部長早我請問一下,之前我曾經找部長就研議一下,馬祖啊因為金門跟澎湖都有部立院 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13019.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13046.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
馬祖連江縣大概人少一點,但是有國軍、公安科加起來也不少人,有沒有機會成立部立醫院?這個是這幾年來一直在評估,也跟縣政府討論那以縣政府目前是先不適合成為部立醫院不適合吧?有跟縣政府有討論過了嗎?你如果不適合的話也還好,我是說對縣立醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13049.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13068.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
因為你曉得我們的規模比金門澎湖小很多啊主要就是心臟內科神經內科外科我們不談啦外科這些手術啊這個一定要到大的醫院嘛我們小的醫院也沒辦法處理啦我是說能不能再加強一下指派 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13070.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13087.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
心臟內科、神經內科這些醫生請衛福部幫個忙好不好好沒問題還有麻醉醫生我們也缺找軍醫局我們在國防部軍醫局局長蔡局長也幫了我們很大的忙也支援我們醫生因為那裡阿兵哥很多嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13088.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13105.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
沒問題,我想馬祖的醫院那邊的醫療人員都非常優秀,而且都是很訓練好,在台灣已經訓練好,回去工作也很久因為有一些網路的聲音,不停的就逼著說立委、縣長你們要成立部立院 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13106.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13133.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那不立院不是我們的問題,不立院大概要幾十億、十幾、二十幾億除了那個腹地的問題,要有土地嘛對不對我們趕快充實他必要的人力跟設備比較重要那如果部長如果能夠朝著把裡面的醫生更精進、更充實當然我們是也可以接受的好不好這個是我們一直在努力的目標,分享離島的醫療人力最近這幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13135.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13164.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
大概悉吉葛塞的病人很多還有中風的病人還有說摔倒了摔倒了腦幹出血等等這些都要大陣醫院來協助那就扯到林天的航空公司目前是林天得標目前還在執行他一年的合約裡面標案的一年合約裡面有一個月是稅休那就表示有一個月的空裝期沒有直升機駐地在馬祖 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13165.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13178.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那我們如果發生事情的話就馬上就直升機就準備我們就起飛送到松山機場我們送到大樂醫院去那現在當然部裡面有幫忙協調空軍有海鷗那警政署內政部有空軍總隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13189.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13217.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
到目前為止執行任務的狀況還好像昨天前天都是有空軍隊在執行但是這裡面從台北飛到馬祖要一個鐘頭還要看氣候氣候不好的話還要等待所以沒辦法及時的搶救生命這是個問題我說衛福部在下次當然這一次的標案對不起它到117年標案才結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13219.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13241.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
衛福部能不能回去討論一下因為就錢的問題嘛大概一年需要三千多萬那三千多萬如果衛福部看看有沒有經費就找零天就備用的直升機找一台我看起碼兩千萬跑不掉了部長能不能幫這個忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13243.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13260.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我想我們再找我們部內相關的部門來研議是不是部內主動召集縣政府好不好好找縣政府衛生局你們是哪一個師在辦這個事情一般來講衣服會是比較有 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13262.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13290.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
照護師是偏鄉啦,要跟議會一起來努力這樣子你回去請你們同仁記下來好不好,找縣政府我們的衛福局啊我們定期在委員的指導之下,其實我們定期都有跟媽祖這個不管是縣長啦,或者是衛生局這樣都有你們空警海鷗你們都有幫忙,尤其部長齁,邱部長上任以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13293.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13320.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這個對馬祖我真的有實質的幫助你看我向你要求要這個電腦斷層啊800切的你雖然沒有給我800切但是給了100多切的嘛是不是那個效果也非常好我知道我知道因為那個以前的斷層掃描那個啊用了十幾二十年了嘛所以那邊找一次到那個那個直升機送到台北來還要再找一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13323.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13341.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
現在不但有比較清楚,而且有AI輔助,所以在傳遞上面非常方便,可以及時來救治所以外面也有一些聲音很吵雜,說你怎麼做得不好,我覺得你做得很好啊這個每個人想法看法都不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13342.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13358.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以教育部長你把我做繼續領導然後把我們馬祖這個醫療再繼續提升馬祖的醫療人員真的都是好朋友都是盡心盡力在那邊你都很熟啊我們一定全力給他最大的決心而且都是我們的學生等於是我們這邊訓練好過去的所以關係非常的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13362.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13384.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那個直升機的問題,請部長重視一下好不好,因為今天時間的關係我就...好不好,謝謝主席,留在一分鐘啦好不好,謝謝好,祝你建國必成你的徽記來了,好好,謝謝人謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝蕭主席,謝謝慢走齁,記得系上安全帶,好那接下來請黃國昌委員來做詢問黃主席,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13393.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13402.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
所以主席麻煩有請魏福利部長,司法院的代表法務部檢察司的代表然後內政部警政署的代表委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13411.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13435.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那時間的關係,不一一問候啊三個禮拜前的禮拜三,在世華法治委員會我們針對有關於家暴的事件保護令的圖據形式到底有沒有用我們在世華法治委員會見過沒有想到三個禮拜以後同樣一個問題在外環委員會要再重新面對一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13436.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13461.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
看到這些事情,我相信所有關心婦幼特別是社保婦女保護的人,大家心裡都很難過但我們要問的事情是什麼我們要問的事情是當初在七月初的時候發生了加爆奶違反保護令殺死她的太太她的七妹的悲劇我們的衛福部那一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13463.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13472.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
到立法院來的時候講得很有魄力我有五大作為要補破網還有致命危險清單 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13474.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13497.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
會落實危險評估機制強化被害人保護這些都是送到立法院來的公文書有做到沒有做到為什麼今天一模一樣的事情在這邊重新再討論一次我想部長回去可以好好看一看檢討一下放在心裡面司法院那一天一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13498.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13515.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
反正各個部會相關的單位大家都很會喊口號都很會喊口號非常會喊口號非常會搞大內宣結果呢結果實際執行的狀況到底看不看檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13517.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13545.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
司法院說避免漢事再度發生積極採取如下的經濟措施就是司法院那天的報告來我們來看這個案子5月初被害人被打了以後跑去報案驗傷目前這個案子警方刑事的部分刑事案件的部分不是在講加包保護令喔刑事案件的部分移檢方沒有警政署移了沒有什麼時候移的8月初就移了 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13545.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13570.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
八月初就移了 人死了才移喔人死了才移喔因為他提傷害的部分是在五月初的時候提傷害我們什麼時候移的八月初才移喔 等到他五月被打 然後提傷害然後等到他死了以後才提喔 才移喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13571.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13597.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為我們之前傳喚這個相對人沒有到案所以我們蒐集之後在7月31號移出去所以我說的沒有錯嗎這個速度警政署滿意嗎滿意嗎我現在講的不是被殺死的案子有沒有移出去啊是5月初被打的案子什麼時候移的啊那你們現在告訴我我聽了很驚訝5月初被打的案子等到這個人被殺了以後才移啊這個速度滿意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13600.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13627.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這個偵辦的這個進度我們可以再做檢討因為當時是傳喚這個槍隊人他沒有到案所以呢就放著那我們就要做一些調查的這個動作好我們來看看啦你們到底是怎麼調查的5月21號警方協助向台北地院申請暫時保護令法官開庭的時候券內沒有附上親密關係暴力危險評估量表是不是真的有沒有附 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13631.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13645.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
有沒有驗傷單驗傷單的部分是因為當事人他來報案的時候他沒有帶所以他第二天來報傷害案件的時候才把驗傷單帶過來第二天所以是幾號5月16號就拿到了還是5月18號 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13647.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13661.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
5月16號有驗傷單那奇怪了那法官開庭的時候怎麼會沒有驗傷單沒有給法官嗎在暫時保護令申請的時候驗傷單沒有付給法官為什麼沒有因為當時就是被害人沒有送驗傷單過來拜託幾號開庭的5月22號開庭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13668.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13687.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
對但是我們送的時候他的驗傷單還沒有送過來那之後所以我剛才問你時間點吧你說5月18號驗傷單送過來5月22號開庭啊為什麼法官券裡面沒有這是我的問題啊是就是我們在暫時保密申請的時候也沒有把第二天再補送驗傷單的部分再補給法官所以要問題來了5月22號法官開庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13691.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13719.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
現在目前公開的資訊顯示的是暴力危險評估表沒有附 驗傷單沒有附什麼通通都沒有在什麼通通都沒有的情況之下 來 請司法院法官做了什麼事法官做了什麼事法官在第一時間是定期因為沒有這三個資料第一 驗傷單沒有第二 那個加害人的筆錄沒有第三 沒有這個所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13723.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13743.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那還有一個就是我這樣講先停一下啦你們各個單位啊今天要到未還委員會來報告基本的事實啊基本的事實都還沒有掌握清楚啊大家在備詢台上面踢皮球我老實跟大家講啦很難看啊非常難看啊非常難看啊一群官員在上面踢皮球你司法院說沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13750.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13753.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
警方說有 所以現在誰在說謊誰在說謊 今天呢針對這麼重要的事情提書面報告基本事實的部分我全部看完連基本事實都講不清楚所以我才有必要到備詢台上面來問嘛問了以後在備詢台上面互相踢皮球 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13778.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13801.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
大內宣很會寫實際上面的作為呢勘檢驗嗎勘檢驗嗎實際上的關係我述述問啦這個保護令多久要核發案件辦理程序案件辦理期限多久兩個月本件是暫時保護令對實際發了什麼時候發的7月28日核發 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13805.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13818.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
有沒有超過報案期限有超過了接下來怎麼辦我們現在就加以調查做進行必要的一個調查奇怪了你們7月16號送來世華法治委員會的不是有跟法官說辦這個案子要注意什麼事情好多精進作為紙上工夫很厲害啊實際執行的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13835.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13858.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
都已經被打了結果保護令處理超過兩個月超過辦案期限司法院這件事情的檢討以及後製到底要怎麼處理這件事情需要多久一個月一個月之內書類報告交出來誰要怎麼處理誰要負責主席站起來了我問最後一個問題來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13861.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13879.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
警部長 是的 是的我現在有點搞不太清楚喔衛福部是有參加大罷免嗎沒有那所以你們的次長在臉書上面發說要整軍備戰重新整隊 是要整什麼隊你們衛福部裡面是有一支隊伍在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13881.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13900.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
大罷免是不是我想這是純粹他個人的言論他個人的言論嘛一個政務官發表這種言論你覺得適當嗎蛤他如果今天不當政務官他要發表什麼言論啊台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家他愛怎麼講他們家的事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13901.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13913.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
這是你轄下的政務官欸這是你的次長欸整軍備戰還要剿匪請問誰是匪啊在野黨的立委都是匪嗎現在衛福部有準備要剿匪嗎有沒有我再說一次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13919.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13941.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
約束好你下面的政務官可以答應嗎可以約束好講出這種話根本就不適格了還幹什麼衛福部次長啊他厚著眼皮賴在那個位置上你部長要有基本的擔當跟態度啊還出來幫他講說他講這些話是為了讓大家更團結他講這些話你覺得可以讓大家更團結嗎蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13951.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13961.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
可以嗎 適當嗎所以他安慰的方式是說我們要繼續教匪喔所以我才問你嘛 在野黨立委是不是匪大家都是匪我們都不是再給你最後一次機會一個次長講這個話適不適當當然我們尊重個人的言論啦但是以他自己也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13975.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13989.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
他也有自己自我檢討在最後講一次,不早回去約束好你所任命的官員我希望這樣的事不要再發生好的,謝謝好,謝謝接下來請黃捷委員來做選答 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14007.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14020.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
消毒水提供一下好不好衛生紙來 快點來好 謝謝主席 我們請衛福部長來 請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14029.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14046.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
委員好部長好今天早上其實很多委員都已經提過了這一個月來已經發生四五起這樣的案子那我看到的時候當然非常難過也很震驚說到底看起來已經不是偶一的個案大家都在問說保護令是不是真的變成一張廢紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14047.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14061.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
保護令是不是變成一張催命符它真的有保護的作用嗎明明大家都已經拿到保護令了為什麼還可以讓加害人這些高風險的危險情人這些恐怖情人可以進行傷害的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14062.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14086.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
所以我看了真的是覺得我們是不是制度到底有哪些問題要檢討那當然我也去做了很多研究我認為有幾個方式啦第一個是這個強制儲遇那因為我看了一下數據其實像去年申請這個家暴通報的案件有13萬件當然每年平均是高達16萬件那這麼多件的通報裡面強制儲遇的只有3000多件就是這麼低比例2點多% |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14090.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14103.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
就是這麼低那我想問這些通報像這一次這個月以來發生的5起案件裡面難道他們都不用強制儲育計劃嗎就我所知信義區的這個案件似乎連儲育計劃都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14106.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14131.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
那強制處遇計畫這麼低的比例的情況下這些高風險的危險份子真的有辦法被你們這樣好好的約束嗎?請部長好,謝謝委員隨行我想跟大家報告其實民事保護令這個部分制度還是有它的效果八成被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14131.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14140.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
部長你這句話今天早上講了非常多次你不是說八成有效果那我就要問剩下的兩成呢請問兩成比例不高嗎兩成裡面有這麼多高風險的恐怖情人然後甚至一個月裡面有無期傷害的案件然後你一直跟我說八成有效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14151.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14175.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
大家要問的是剩下兩成沒效果嗎是的所以我今天早上一直聽到你講這句話我其實聽了非常的不滿意也覺得替這些受害人非常的抱屈難道剩下的高風險份子就不用處理嗎一直說保護力有用我們看起來就是沒有用啊先保護到某個程度那沒有保護到的我們更加強我們的行事資料的技術力要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14177.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14195.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我們第一個要加強刑事司法的技術力第二個我們網絡共同來落實相關的安全計畫這個部分來維護病人安全那在任何的時期我們當然包括空窗期尤其特別要注意在各防治網的成員必須要提高敏感度 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14196.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14208.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那加害人如果有特別像跟蹤啊騷擾啊這些我們就必須警方人員要加強查房告誡並視危機的程度來講你真的知道這個月發生的這幾起問題在哪嗎你剛剛說什麼加強刑事的拘束力好 怎麼加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14215.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14239.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
當然我們也要考慮到是不是我們可能用更高的科技來防止這個發生這個部分也是非常嚴肅要去來討論的所以就是其實我前兩天就已經給了幾個建議就是歐洲有很多國家在家庭虐待法裡面都有提到這些電子監控的設備到底要不要加強這個給執法的單位有一些工具去進行 是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14240.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14262.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
然後你也說一個月內要把這些精進的設施看可不可以開放來做,這是第一個,對嗎?對,對的那第二個其實有一個問題,土城的這一案最大的問題是警方在移送的時候並沒有把完整的這個人的暴力史提供給檢察官,結果檢察官就縱放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14264.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14279.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個問題很大那我去看了一下因為目前你們第一線警察警政署在這裡嗎第一線警察能夠拿到這一些家暴資料庫的權限其實沒有很完整是這樣子嗎可不可以請警政署來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14280.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14299.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
因為這個其實之前也非常多人提過了就是你第一線警方如果連家庭暴力資料庫這樣的資料都沒有辦法完整的提供給地檢署他又怎麼能夠依據這一些暴力史來判定這個人要不要申請羈押是 是不是 請先回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14301.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14315.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我向委員說明我們目前婦幼案件的這個交報的這個資料庫是各網絡是共用那我們警察的部分是包含我們婦幼案件的承辦人從警察局分局到那為什麼組成的這一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14317.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14334.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
警察沒有把相關的暴力使提供給檢察官因為土城的這個案子我們當時受理的是分局偵查隊那他沒有偵查隊不能看嗎偵查隊他應該是加防官有權限但是這個員警他這個偵查對啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14336.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14355.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
偵查隊沒有權限啊我現在講的就是這件事情所以是不是應該要開放給他們不然你只有加防官可以看結果他們是依當時的個案並沒有把它過去完整的加報室提供給檢察官導致於檢察官縱放發生了這一起悲劇我向委員報告因為電腦權限如果開放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14359.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14367.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
很多的同仁可能造成在使用上也有會有不當查詢的情形所以我們都是還是在加防官但是我們現在在研擬就是希望說未來在給地檢署的資料我們會把過去的這個記錄透過這個加防官的整理之後我們因為移送的時候是要經過加防官的審查之後才會移送那這一案就沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14383.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14402.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這案沒有啊 這個案子是因為我們當時的 因為是偵查隊送的啊對 但是我們當時的那個交房官剛好他這個案子是沒有給交房官但是以後我們這個部份 什麼叫剛好所以我現在問的就是如果現在當時他是依其他的並不是因為他是家暴他可能當下其他的暴力或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14403.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14431.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
他有什麼丟東西之類的其他的行為導致是偵查隊介入然後他送的時候都沒有去使用到家暴的這些資料庫他根本就沒有把過去的這些家暴史提供出來家防官甚至跟這件事情並沒有在前面就一起處理耶那怎麼辦我現在講的就是如果你不給其他的警察其他單位只有家防官可以看那家防官什麼時候介入他什麼時候能夠把這些資料同時送給地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14433.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14442.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這就是我要問的問題我相信你也知道這就是問題所在我們也在研究是怎麼樣能夠去把這個部分把它補起來我覺得這是這次最大最大的問題這些就是一群高風險分子因為這個系統是我們整個衛福部的這個系統那全線的開放我們再來看看是不是要再擴大再開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14456.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14476.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我們衛福部這邊是說8月15號會召集相關的會議我們要做好那8月10號請把這個會議結論告訴我們告訴我們如何處理這些家暴的這些暴力時的高風險分子他們連你們基礎的資料都沒有那請問地檢署又如何判定要不要申請羈押導致於目前的生壓比例這麼低 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14478.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14496.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
好所以以上三個建議第一個強制儲育計畫如果要擴大範圍如果要增加要件請衛福部加強不要讓強制儲育的比例這麼低明明有這麼多人應該要被你們去進行輔導以及治療協助等等的很多人都沒有在你們的計畫裡第二個這個加爆防治史 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14500.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14519.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
這個要如何讓生壓的比例提高或者是說你們要讓該有工具的人所有的警察能夠開放使用這個資料的要讓他們可以使用第三個可以參考歐洲的做法如果他們已經很明確的你們知道這些人就是這麼危險那如果需要電子監控設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14521.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14528.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
需不需要使用你們就來研究一下嘛是的以上三個建議拜託你們一個月內完成然後8月15會議結論告訴我好的沒問題好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14535.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14551.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
好,謝謝,請回。委員會再次宣告一次,因為等一下還有一個全民健康保險資料管理條例要協商,然後再來還有額托,所以請各位委員在巡討的時候請遵截時間,好不好?謝謝。請各位配額。接下來請何欣淳委員來做巡討。 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14562.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14564.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
衛生福利部部長以及警政署六戶署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14571.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14578.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
部長好那廖副署長部長其實剛剛聽到這個廖副署長的這樣子的回答我想家暴防治法立法到現在也歷經了好幾次的修法那我們的家庭暴力防治制度呢不管在法規或者是相關的一個中央地方政府該負各級政府該負責的我想很多的第一線的人員都很辛苦我們必須要肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14599.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14615.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
但是呢我們看到這一個月發生了那麼多起的案件那我們那麼多的委員不分朝野不分黨派大家也都在認為說那我們家暴房子從立法到現在這二三十年來是不是有很多的制度該檢討了尤其呢在執行面上包括剛剛我們廖副署長是不是你剛剛的回答我也覺得很驚訝 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14623.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14641.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
就是說這一個月發生這幾起案件已經在網路上在媒體上大家都已經討論那麼久了都已經指出問題之所在了而我們自己衛生福利部跟警政署相關的單位我們到現在都還沒有還沒有針對大家的質疑大家提出的問題來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14644.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14668.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
這個研議你剛剛還在用研議兩個字其實我都認為如果我們夠積極的話在今天的專案報告之前我們應該是在今天就要聽到你們告訴我你們研議之後覺得面對問題該有什麼樣的解決方案甚至我期待的是你剛剛跟我們講的這個不管是家暴的這個紀錄的資料庫如何嫁接權限如何的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14669.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14677.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
放鬆或者是你要怎麼樣的來做這個機制檢討我們今天認為應該要聽到的是這些而不是在跟我講說一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14680.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14701.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
來給你報告兩個月來幹什麼我們八月份要開會事情已經發生很多事 已經發生這麼久了所以我們看不到我們不管是衛生福利部或者是警政署或是其他單位的積極作為部長你覺得這一個月來你看那麼多委員發生了這些事情大家都這麼關心那您自己認為呢部長我們可不可以再更積極一定要更積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14708.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14721.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
一定要更積極但是因為我看到媒體也有說出你今天指出我們要兩大精進作為但是這兩大精進作為就如同剛剛有其他委員在問你這兩大精進作為我們認為都很空虛啊不會啦那個報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14725.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14739.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
我們加強刑事司法的技術力,這個在幾次的討論裡面已經大家起的有共識然後各種資訊,我們幾個部會的一個網絡的共同論資訊的一個整合、嫁接然後在研議,是不是有更積極的立法來向有些國家,它的電子的監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14751.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14771.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
這個你今天已經回答很多委員回答很多次了那我不知道你們在事情發生那麼多件之後我們到底有沒有演繹到底有沒有什麼樣的一個具體作為是已經可以做的因為你今天的回答都到目前為止我們都看到聽到的都還不是可以做的具體作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14774.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14800.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
包括廖副署長我們警政署這邊大家都在談從保護令的核發到實際上的一個安全的空窗期那我們也沒有看到警政署這邊告訴我們說那除了要求這個不管是地檢署啦司法院啊他們速度要快啊那我們警政署在這個安全空窗期的時候我們可以積極什麼作為我的服務處甚至我自己本人接了從我過去當議員到現在當立法委員四屆了 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14801.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14818.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我們要不斷的聽到這個受害人即使申請到保護令了他還是要擔心受怕為什麼他跑來問我我如果發生事情的時候我第一時間可以做什麼我們也都只能說就是報警報警之後呢我跟你講很多保護令核發下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14823.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14852.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我們的受害人被保護人他可能往往反反說的往往反反是什麼他可能舉起電話打110又放下舉起電話打110又放下那可能受到不斷的騷擾所以他反反覆覆之間他的擔心受怕他是精神上的折磨而且我必須要告訴你不是只有他個人是他整個家庭還有甚至連他的工作的夥伴們工作的場所都是受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14853.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14868.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
受到加害人或者是受到騷擾那很多這些方方面面我們的家暴防治法已經執行了那麼多年我想我們理論上要很有經驗跟有專業來做這些思考跟做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14870.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14893.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這個制度面的可以執行的到位的來保護這些申請保護令的人不是嗎是的 是的 是的啊可是到今天為止我聽了一整個早上我都發現我們每個單位都在告訴我要研議要研議那具體的作為都還我都還沒有呈現出來這第一個那第二個我覺得不是只有家暴防治的部分喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14894.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14920.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我們現在實際上在服務處也收到個案我覺得我們司法院還有地檢署都有相關的配套要做什麼就是我們司法院法官跟地檢署的檢察官跟中央地方的設政單位的一個橫向的聯繫都還有第一個時間差第二個執行的一個不到位我舉一個例子這個召委說我們要控制時間我舉一個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14922.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14933.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
一個單親的國中生自己打電話來服務處陳情他找不到他爸爸他爸爸本來告訴他他因為酒駕要去繳罰金酒駕是不對的當然要懲罰但是呢臨時法官改變不給他繳罰金要他服役 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14944.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14958.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
結果呢 她的爸爸去到了台中看守所第一個 單親的小女 單親的國中生她不知道她爸爸去哪裡了她打電話來阿姨的服務處問說阿姨妳可不可以幫我找爸爸到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14959.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14979.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那請問一下我們就這個個案的情況之下我們法官在改判的時候第一個第一時間有沒有知道他家裡有所謂的未成年子女第二個有沒有考量到他單親家庭沒有親戚沒有家人你知道最後是誰收容了這個單親的孩子嗎鄰居然後鄰居幫他通報社會局跟通報學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14989.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15013.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
部長我在跟你講的是設政體系還有跟司法院跟可能地檢署就司法單位中間的橫向聯繫到底出了什麼問題那這些其實如果是一個完整的社會安全網絡的話這個單親的國中生不應該打電話來阿姨的服務處來問看看我要找爸爸你可不可以幫我找爸爸 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15016.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15037.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
然後而且還是鄰居收容的這一個單親的國中生喔我現在提這個個案只是來給大家做參考除了家庭暴力防治之外我們有很多的現在的社會的一個家庭的形態的多樣性那不一樣的一個社會環境裡面我們在司法院或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15038.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15066.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
司法單位在做相關的處置的時候,是不是能夠考量多一點然後嫁接我們的社會安全網絡,能夠好好的來保護該保護的人,好不好?好的 以上,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝委員長指教,謝謝好,謝謝何委員,謝謝邱部長再請我們所有準備要催省的委員,時間中結一下,拜託這下請陳培委員、陳培宇委員、陳培宇委員不在,請李坤誠委員來做選答 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15076.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15077.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
謝謝主席 我們先請邱部長來 有請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15084.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15109.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那等一下如果有相關的單位麻煩就上來這個其實在7月16號的時候司法法治委員會就已經有談過這個專報了那結果沒想到在7月16號的時候包含各個單位其實都有提出說要怎麼樣去精進怎麼樣去做這一個預防類似的事情再發生就沒想到7月30號就又發現又發生了這個古姓女子 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15109.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15139.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
他就去申請這個家暴令 申請這個保護令結果還是被遭到這個不幸的殺害所以我覺得今天講這個 真的是有點有點感傷啦 那時間上我先請教一下部長 是這個按照這個家暴法的第31條它是有這個預防性的羈押啦那其實這個我可能要請教一下這一個法務部還有這個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15140.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15157.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這個預防性的羈押現在大家討論那是不是說對於這個預防性羈押我們有必要因為過去這個預防性羈押採取的這個措施好像相對來講偏低啦那所以對於加爆法第31條的這個預防性羈押有沒有什麼樣的一個精進的作為這誰要來答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15160.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15183.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
包委員我先報告一下從那次會議以後我們當然就往兩個方向一個是加強刑事司法的技術力第二個就是我們各個網絡共同來嫁接然後共同來落實相關的安全的計畫這我知道那我就說這個就預防性羈押這部分那預防性羈押是不是謝委員我請我們刑事廳的呂法官來說法官好 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15190.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15214.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
李法官報告委員 好好那其實這個部分就是說30條之一它本身是可以跟刑事訴訟法101條之一跟116條之二來做一個搭配運用那預防性羈押的話一般來講就是說著重他的那個罪名跟他的再犯可能性所以法官在做判斷的時候就是要這些資料來做一個再犯可能性的一個預斷這樣子這樣子的話就可以比較容易做這樣的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15214.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15241.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
是我知道那我是覺得說現在的這個法官是不是採取這個31條的這個預防性羈押的這個比例偏低我想這部分就是跟委員報告我們統計的資料如果是那種違反家庭暴力法案件檢察官申請羈押的話我們准許比例在70到80之間對所以那部分比例高低要看檢察官的申請案件量如果有申請的話其實法院准許比例還算高70到80 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15242.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15255.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
那所以呢 就這一條的話 算是這一條的話你們有沒有覺得說在適用的這個情況上面有沒有什麼情況可以再讓這一個去申請保護令的人他覺得說他其實可以更安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15257.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15275.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
其實在這個地方來講的話其實法官在做這樣判斷的時候最主要就是說必須要有效的蒐集就是說有沒有再犯危險的因子好那就是資料嘛對不對對那些資料就包括說有沒有酒飲藥飲情緒障礙或是物質濫用這個又是另外一個問題對然後另外還有就是這個單位這個橫向聯繫的問題對然後就是說危險評估表這個最主要 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15275.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15294.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
在國外在做這樣的法治研究我看這個媒體報導這個有關這個古姓女子她的這一個一些相關的一些不論是她的這一個評估表或是說這一個相關的一些案情都沒有再附上去給法官這個我等一下會再跟你們討論那我再問一下第31條 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15296.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15318.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
第31條就是說在不羈押的情況之下其實法官還是可以採取很多的動作嘛那這個其實也牽連到就是說大家有在討論說那是不是可以用這一個所謂的這一個科技設備來做監控那按照你們的這個提供的資料你們也提到了就是說如果沒有申請羈押的必要的話可以用刑事訴訟法的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15320.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15341.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
117條之一第一項準用第116條之二的第一項規定那這個第116條之二的規定其中就有一款是提到就是說接受適當的科技設備的監控所以目前其實這個法令就可以做到啦 對不對對啊 那就是說在不修法的情況之下其實就可以用這一個刑事訴訟法的116之二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15343.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15368.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
來做這個電子設備的監控可是好像這方面的話大家是不是在實務上面也很少用到這一條報告委員確實如委員所講我們現在是可以用116條之二做適當的監控在不修法的情況之下因為我聽到很多委員也都建議要電子監控其實訴訟法116這不是就可以做處理了嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15370.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15396.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
但是這個部分就是說當初這個東西最主要設計是用來做防逃那關於這一種家暴案件就是說遠離這邊的房子或是禁止殺害被害人的話他的那個設備的那個搭配被害人本身可能也要去裝帶一些類似像科技設備的東西在裡面那對被告來講這個技術上不是問題我是說使用的技術上不是問題但是就是說在使用上來講要經過被害人同意才可以裝這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15399.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15413.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
如果被害人不同意的話那可能沒辦法做處理因為我們這邊的法院的這邊的那個所謂的強制處分是針對被告如果被害人同意的話可以這個部分技術上就是可能可以做到實務上好像很少用到這一條啊是沒錯因為為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15414.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15437.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
因為我們主要的當初這部分的規範設計的目的是要來做防逃使用還有就是說預防再犯這樣子然後對於被害人這部分就是說執行所謂的民事保護令的遠離的部分本來就不在刑事訴訟法116條之二的規範目的裡面那現在在不修法的情況之下可不可以就是說有人申請保護令了緊急保護令了那我們是不是可以用到這個刑事訴訟法的這個116條之二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15439.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15458.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
報告委員因為民事保護令跟所謂的116條之二這是兩個不同層次的問題民事保護令是處理那個民事保護令他本身那個行為人本身該做的一個內容那刑事部分必須要他有違反保護令之後才有刑事案件這時候蔣官申請羈押才會調到那個116條之二跟101條之一這個羈押這部分的一個處理的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15461.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15487.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那所以也沒辦法用到目前這種情況之下也沒有辦法用到這個116條之二來做處理就對了就民事保護令的部分這部分剛剛部長還有幾位在先前的討論中有討論到要研議國外的法制是不是要納入那因為這部分不是我的職長範圍那這部分可能要請那個部長或是說那個邵家廳的廳長來做回應謝謝那部長因為我剛才聽就是說是有要研議往這個方向就對了是從這個家暴法的修法來做處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15488.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15516.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
我們也利往最後面來處理就是加爆跑的部分就對了是不是是好啊我是希望說今天大家蠻聚焦在這個地方那其實我剛剛還要再提到這個古姓女子那其實這個如果按照媒體的報導啦這個她已經去報警了然後呢這個法官也開庭了結果呢竟然這個券內沒有附上親密關係暴力危險評估量保這怎麼會發生這種事情勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15518.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15543.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
是不是真的有這個事情發生是不是真的有我就這個問題就請他們答覆就好了是不是真的沒有附上去因為這個跟那個7月初土神發生的事情是一樣的啊就法官他沒有這一個及時的資料來做判斷啊這個案子我們有附相關的調查筆錄但是替代量表確實是沒有附那這個不是最重要的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15544.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15571.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
她只是其中的一項 為什麼會沒有附咧為什麼會沒有附咧這個就是我們員警這是一條人命耶就是說7月初土神發生的事情跟7月底這個古遜女子發生的事情都同樣發生 說法官她要在審理的時候發現說這個警察或是說社工所提供的這個資料不足啊那為什麼會7月初發生這種事情呢 然後我們7月16號 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15572.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15582.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這個已經有開過專報了就說要做處理結果在七月底的時候要發生這種事情那當然它是五月份發生的事情啊那我覺得這個橫向聯繫你們真的要做檢討啦不然這個對社會交代不過去啊這我們會都來做個案的檢討好謝謝齁謝謝主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15594.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15614.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
好,委員會再報告一下齁,這個是不是因為看時間可能會超過到一點半啦,要不要先給那個官員是不是先用餐?一邊用餐一邊開了,好不好?不能偷太久,對大家不好意思。接下來請徐副委員、徐副委員、徐副委員、副委員不在,請賴思寶委員來做詢問。 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15621.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15625.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
謝謝主席請一下邱部長邱部長我讓你turn the gear換場啦我不要問這個問題我問另外一個很重要的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15636.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15653.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我去聞了就是加熱菸你們審查通過了你們在7月29號審查通過美商的菲利普莫里斯日商的潔泰日菸審查通過請問你什麼時候上市 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15656.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15666.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
什麼時候可以上市因為這個是A5單位在處理一個月呢 兩個月呢這個要看他的一個 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15667.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15691.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
他們逼上來我當然有仔細的來看看應該公報你到底了啊他有很多他們自行要同意的事情一定要廠商做到嘛你都不知道齁做到以後才能夠進一步的簽約所以應該預計如果說廠商能夠配合得好的話應該幾個月就幾個月 一個月還兩個月 三個月你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15694.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15714.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
三個月應該可以吧一個月應該可以一個月大概不太可能因為他還要按照那樣去開始製造製造他要開始製造我們的符合我們的要求所以大概兩個月嗎可能要三個月三個月上市然後我就請問你審查標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15715.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15733.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
審查標準你說以前的審查還是後來這一次審查通過的啊7月9號上個禮拜的事情啊審查的標準就是委員會審查的啊是什麼標準部長你看好看清楚喔我去文賴世保辦公室去文我去文7月30號我就去文了 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15740.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15752.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
這個事情董事基金會非常感冒啊我也非常感冒啊我們希望你快但是要有標準啊結果我私底下問你們沒有標準你們的標準就是廠商的標準這何其的可恥啊衛福部怎麼會拿廠商標準可能有標準啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15758.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15777.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
不可能拿廠商來表演不然怎麼會省兩人多到最後就是因為有高層施壓媒體施壓高層施壓所以國建署的署長也因此退休了我們都一直按照那個審查的辦法進行好 如果你也不要說為什麼我的文跟您要了一個禮拜要不到答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15779.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15780.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
我今天來講是很嚴肅告訴你我 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15792.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15809.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
一個國會議員問你你們審完了你總是可以告訴我們標準是怎麼審的結果你一個禮拜都不給我回私底下也不敢講然後呢我聽到的是你們的標準就是廠商的標準不可能上全入國啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15810.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15816.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
不可能 加熱菸啊如果廠商的標準那為什麼兩年省那麼久啊因為有高層受益啊你們以前黨獨處之下黨不獨隊國務院署長下台啦我們面對各方面的要已經好幾年了但是我們都堅守專業的專業的審查標準我看你偶爾你到我們參會會的時候我說你很棒來我們參會這裡或者說加熱菸就趕快省但是要有標準結果到現在為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15839.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15862.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我問你的標準在哪裡你今天給我標準我就服氣了今天我要一個禮拜然後完全不回火完全不回火喔報告委員你給我時間我最快的速度給你幾天時間幾天時間三天可以嗎好 三天三天馬上給我答案標準在哪裡好不好否則我高度的質疑你的標準就是廠商的標準這個一定報告委員這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15863.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15872.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我們在講這件事情的時候一定要尊重這個審查委員每一個都是教授沒有人可以去影響那些二三十個教授來來來 部長我告訴你啦因為我答的他得到是說標準在哪裡 國際的標準國際標準是什麼 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15880.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15905.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
這樣他就是用國際標準這樣說結果沒有conversion就是沒有收斂啦你知道嗎沒有這個沒有統一起來這個很嚴重喔這障礙我們的健康啊因為這個是投票每個專家去投票我知道啦你投票我知道啦問題是這個都是可以運作的啦來第二個問題喔今天幾個小時才公布的喔川普說幾個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15909.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15927.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
你看接受CNBC專訪他對進口藥品的關稅要一開始少一點一年到一年半150%之後要到250%台灣的藥品到美國去有多少2024年的統計我們有10億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15929.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15955.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那麼我們百分之三十去美國我們百分之三十去美國這個台幣現在匯率是過去的數字了那麼十億美金我就請教部長請教部長對國內的其實我們的資料業其實不怎麼樣沒有很厲害啦但是影響也蠻大的喔這個你有什麼因應沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15955.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15984.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
川普說的喔 川普說的喔川普大帝喔 川普爸爸說的喔一年半以後只有250%喔我們怎麼樣增加我們的醫藥品醫材的韌性我們這幾年來已經做好非常好的準備韌性第一個就是說我們的缺藥平台建立得非常完整只要六個月以內的必要藥品有缺完馬上通報 馬上處理第二個我們增加國產的學名藥而且給它更好的批價 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15985.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15995.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
讓更多的學民要能夠得到你有沒有對國內因為有時間到了不要拖了喔對國內的藥廠有沒有輔導啦有沒有輔導有沒有輔導他因為如果250%美國就不用去啊美國一年半你又不要去了啊你要去什麼250%勒你要怎麼賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16004.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16009.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
一年半你又有250%目前到醫藥品醫材還沒有在這一波來談的當中都沒有談可是他已經講對世界要靠藥品250%他講的10個小時以前講的這個部分我們要再去確認一下幾個小時以前講的最新的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16025.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16034.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
最新的消息你還沒講完沒關係我們這個再去了解一下因為現在是沒有沒有什麼你那個對我們川普說要258一年半以後250%這個影響評估能不能一個禮拜以內給我們這個報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16041.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16064.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
好的我們一個禮拜以內因為這個稅率川普變來變去我們很難掌握但是我們會把我們所掌握的以及我們因應的一個禮拜可以嗎可以啊沒問題報告可以好沒問題三天內給我為什麼我已經要標準一個禮拜要不到好的好的一個禮拜以內就川普的這個宣布對國內藥品的影響藥品出口的這個對出口的影響的影響好跟我們報告好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16069.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16087.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好 謝謝賴委員的發言 謝謝部長的回答下一位我們請劉建國召委發言好 謝謝主席 要準時 請邱部長好 有請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16088.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16107.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
如果87年台灣通過家庭暴力防治法,那六二十四號衛務部也才舉辦立法滿27週年的記者會對不對?是那兩院有派代表到嗎?四個部會有派代表到嗎?然後所屬的私塾都有派代表到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16108.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16109.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
市長跟委員說明我們的27週年的記者會我們是用議題來做討論跟民眾跟社會大眾宣導所以並沒有邀部會參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16125.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16154.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
沒有啊,就只有衛務部,就只有保護司來主導這事情嘛所以其他的今天接受到備詢、垂詢的相關的包含司法院你們是所屬這個行政院嘛對不對那其他的屬司、警政署還有這個檢察司都沒有被邀請嘛但今天發生這個事情你看底下的官員幾次被委員請到備詢台來接受備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16156.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16177.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我只是要凸顯這個問題啦齁 這個事情會同小可台灣在整體針對這個家庭暴力防治法可能是要很慎重嚴謹的 積極的來正視相關的這樣的一個程序啦齁如果再不做這樣處理的話 我想上個禮拜再法治 這個禮拜再未還或是下個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16179.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16203.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
這兩個委員會不曉得會不會又要再排一次那到時候各位所屬兩院的各部的各司的各署的都能經常在這個立法院的委員會東奔西跑然後有時候打出來的會讓台灣人民沒辦法信賴說台灣整體在訂這個制度過程裡面竟然會有很多的盲點跟荒腔走板的情況持續在發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16204.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16219.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以這部分我請部長可能要特別來正視這個問題因為畢竟已經從1988年實施到現在這個保護令已經26年了那法院在合法保護令之後這麼多憾事我想剛剛大家都已經有講過不過一個月有三期 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16222.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16238.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
一個又有三起那我就不再贅述了因為每一件都是讓我們覺得非常的心驚膽跳也覺得是制度在制度的盲點的時候來發生這樣的憾事然後每一個保護令好像是四殺令不是催命,叫四殺令 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16243.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16266.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
應該各位都很清楚在申請保護令的當下坦白說其實是被害者是最危險的時候那國家整體的機制給提出申請這個保護令的對象被害者當時還不知道被害者那事情發生就叫被害者到底是什麼樣的一個機制在保護他 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16267.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16294.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
他要拿到保護令之前的一個前置的保護誰來處理誰來負責我就簡單請教這個問題就好因為剛剛廳長有特別提到對加害者的一些盲點的這樣的一個資源確實有問題一早我聽到在做這個報告的時候我就聽得非常有感你對加害者的一個情緒對加害者可能會在提高到施加暴力的這個狀況我們好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16296.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16312.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
到目前為止沒有一套很好的機制跟資源在做支撐在做支持那當然當被害人提出申請保護令的過程裡面這樣的憾事就會持續一直在發生了甚至你拿到保護令當天就形成廝殺令了因為我從一早聽到現在嘛在閱聽真的是在閱覽過然後我看到底下的不管司長署長副署長等等等這樣跑上跑下跑上跑下跑上跑下 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16327.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16344.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
一個法令一個法律怎麼會讓這麼多單位疲於讓委員對你們垂醒的過程裡面要要做這樣的一個反饋我覺得這個制度已經出了很嚴重的問題了非常嚴重所以在27週年的記者會裡面就稱呼 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16346.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16357.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
市長所講的是導向議題的一個討論那討論出來的結果是什麼你們是不是六月二十四嘛你看何其諷刺六月開了記者會27週年慶七月幾個生命不見了這對台灣整個法治來講對台灣整個在應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16371.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16397.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
這個暴力的防制 暴力的防制來講真的是一大一大的諷刺 一大一大的挑戰難免因為法律受到保障但是今天我們這個法律反而不是在對這些需求者做一個保障才一個月時間而已啊 甚至也不到嘛你是六月二十四開 七月七號就發生的七月三十也發生 七月二十四又發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16402.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16427.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
所以我是覺得一個委員會來召開真的是還不夠啦是真的還不夠那當然一定要藉助立法院的力量來做這相關的一些溝通協調然後導正這個制度然後把這些盲點降到最低還是你行政機關跟司法機關本身可以好好坐下來談然後用更多的時間來面對這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16431.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16447.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我講到這邊啦應該點到這邊大家應該都能理解嘛那我再用幾個數據來講你看我其實現在講的應該也是跟這個天長講的道理差不多我覺得從這個面向但是其實還有很多的面向它還是必須要再被細究啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16448.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16475.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
一百一十二年是達到兩萬件一一一三年差不多近兩萬件嘛然後這個請廳長上來好不好廳長也應該非常清楚保護令有分禁止實施家庭暴力禁止騷擾行為強制遷出強制遠離等四種對家暴而言是最直接與實際嘛我是這樣區分各位可以看一下那各位可以看所謂的占比第一個占比最高禁止實施家庭暴力這其實是假說的啦算不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16478.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16486.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
所以畢業很高的啊你核給他就是最高的啊你不核給他但還是一樣禁止啊換了這個事情還是有罪啊然後禁止騷擾行為87強制遷出2點多不到3%強制遠離 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16496.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16522.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我為什麼要舉這兩個針對強制遷出跟強制遠離請廳長請部長還有請各位單位都是可以來再看一下就是基本上申請保護令的受害者他就是希望施暴者對這個禁止家庭的暴力對這個效果是希望可以達到某種程度但是總是要等到這個施暴者再次施暴的時候他才有辦法還回這個效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16523.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16551.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這個也是一個人諷刺的事情然後然後你看直接面對這個限制施暴者接見受害者的強制遷出跟強制遠離佔總體兩萬件的2%到25%強制遷出齁它涉及加害者的安置問題所以法官因為你荷花的給他的這個意願非常低啦要安置去哪邊你的後端是什麼處理沒有啦有嗎有可以答覆我沒有沒有說就是沒有好然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16554.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16580.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
然後強制遠離對不起 強制遷出如果今天我們對被害人有保護的安置處置那卻對加害者安置的問題怎麼講就是你要讓他強制遷出結果你又沒有辦法做到強制遷出 後酸的一個處理那其實這個都是假的這是假象 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16582.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16596.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
那法官願意來做這樣的一個合定的這兩個面向你看比例就是這麼低所以就是有後端衍生要讓法官去做這樣的合定的問題產生之所在嘛應該是這麼說嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16598.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16614.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這個都是針對加害者的部分來做處理嘛所以天堂早上的報告裡面其實就講到這兩點跟這個大同小異異曲同工之妙啦只是那個程式上的不同而已嘛那這個你們沒有看到沒有再來你再看 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16615.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16631.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
強制遠移就是這效果是當加害者出現在被害者抓到時警察就能直接要求加害者離開現場完全不用再加害者與被害者到底有沒有起口角啦還是怎麼樣啦齁這個最基本可以幫助被害者免於恐懼的保護項目合法率也只有25%而已啊也加起來有5%而已啊這是一個層次問題那第二個時間到是不是我不能換歸 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16643.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16659.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
沒有啦 你不要干擾我好不好你不要因為干擾我 等下要講更久我知道你的預謀你再看一個 我再提供一個數據就好就是2013年強制簽案年的完成處遇這個比例何其低啊就是總共 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16661.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16680.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
我們華院核發了將近兩萬的保護令三種保護令嘛對不對那有對家人的處遇的計畫總共是三千六百九十二千不到四千件佔整體不到兩成啦18.47啦所以有超過八成的家人會進入到這個處置的輔導或治療的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16683.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16705.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
所以問題看起來也不是沒有對等的武器可以使用是沒有人要用的保護司長有講說國內成人保護社工僅800人這個案件處理力有未逮這是司長你講的嘛 對不對那800人想辦法再保護這兩萬件的申請保護令的個案這個其實相對加價者也沒有什麼應對的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16709.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16738.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
處理計畫只有三千多件你就知道這邊又出了一個一大漏洞一大問題的所在一個是一個是這個保護社工的人員一個是他們要這個完成處理的計畫比例是這麼低這是我整個整個例出來的第三個層層問題最後還沒有計算喔衛福部113年家暴家庭暴力通報這個事件的被案人數是多少你知道嗎部長你知道嗎通報就通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16742.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16745.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
如果13萬8通通要申請保護令我們能夠承載嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16762.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16783.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我們能夠承載嗎 換了時間 剛剛有講說應該不到就是我們所謂的通常保護令時間沒有說要到五十幾天 應該可以再加快一點對不對但實際上 這個誰寫的 這個不是我寫的通常保護令還是要五十三天還是要啦 暫時保護令還是要二十三天誰來挑戰這個數據是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16789.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16793.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
來一個單位願意來挑戰如果是錯的我就在這邊跟你們道歉所以在對委員答覆的時候說不會這麼慢啦應該在一個月內還是四十天五十三跟四十天差幾天也差這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16808.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16829.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
好啦時間真的不要再拖下去了啦齁我只是覺得說我這邊有三點具體的要求好不好請部長請廳長請各位今天列席的單位看了一下齁還有還有不足之處啦齁第一我是要求司法院全面要檢討保護令核發內容適用問題同時會同為一部針對提高保護令中加害人處遇計畫進行檢討第二司法院就保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16831.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16858.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
這個合法的這個合格的時程必須進行檢討有效縮短通常保護令及暫時保護令的合法時間同時設政警政教育亦要共同研究如何在第一時間內協助申請保護令的受害者安全保障而回等到保護令確定合法之後才提供協助所以那一段滿點這個部長跟蘇海恩應該一個星期內可以提供給我們吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16859.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16886.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
可以吧 可以 可以 可以了 好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝劉俊鴻委員的發言謝謝各級主管的發言 回應我們下位請林書文委員發言好 謝謝主席 順順是請我們邱部長有請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16889.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16916.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
委員長 委員長部長好今天大家都十分的關心這個議題我想這個議題很難用幾分鐘就可以談得清楚了那我現在開始講就是說其實很多在這個相關單位的比如說像婦幼這個保護專主擔任過檢察官的這個第一線的工作者他們也曾經指出家庭暴力防治法的保護措施聽好喔因為我要跟大家講我們要跟大家教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16919.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16947.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
這個保護鏈保護措施只能處理輕微的家庭暴力事件對嚴重的家庭暴力事件只能暫時治標但不治本我們都知道這個重大家庭暴力的加害人有很多的這個自身的困境其實是沒有辦法靠一紙保護鏈你就讓他可以改過的所以不管是精神上的環境條件上的不論是酗酒的經濟不穩定的暴力習性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16948.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16969.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
其實都很難在短時間內改過改掉他這個習慣靠著家庭暴力的習性來對其他的這個身邊的人所以被害人絕對不能很輕易的就以為這一個保護令其實是萬靈丹這個是基本教育 但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16969.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16971.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我覺得從這麼多的社會案件裡面我們包括立委在這裡諮詢裡面大家都一再強調說保護令應該是一個問名單其實這是很困難的所以特別是申請了保護令以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16985.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17004.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
加害人对被害人会更怨犹所以在民事保护令拿到的时候或者是即将要失效的时候加害人反而更容易再犯家庭暴力行为所以呢我们其实面对这个家暴的行为的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17005.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17012.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
除了勇敢的報警 除了勇敢的申請保護令其實我們現在要問責於這個部長 你覺得這些受害者要怎麼樣拿到保護令以後 要用什麼手段要開始做什麼防範的工作 然後可以讓自己免於再次的受暴你們有任何的教育給這一些受害者嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17032.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17041.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
報委員可不可以容許請市長簡單報告一下好來跟委員報告我們第一線提供的就是跟被害人討論安全計畫你們確定都有提供嗎那安全保護計畫會告訴他們說不要把保護令馬上就曝光去激怒他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17054.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17069.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
會提醒我是很懷疑我是要告訴你我要舉一個恐怖情人一個臉書上的一篇恐怖情人的他的如何自保自保我看了也覺得很困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17071.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17100.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
多年前遇過恐怖情人然後他們在一起但是呢他發現說這個恐怖情人某一天會很忙所以他知道他那一天就有空間可以逃脫他已經受控制了那他怎麼逃脫呢他要不動聲色的布局先到公司跟大家講說他要離哪一天要離職到時候你們必須要配合我然後呢偷偷的請朋友幫他協助申請新的手機門號然後他也知道他的自己的家人要搬家了 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17101.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17120.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
都確定新的住所 他都不用原來的手機了所以到加害人要很忙的那一天來的時候呢然後呢 他加害人把他鎖在房間裡面 不讓他行動自由嘛所以他就從床底下拿出他新辦的手機門號 打電話給房東房東就帶著鎖匠幫他開門讓他走了 開著貨車幫他搬家 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17125.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17147.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
然後他就馬上把原本的手機關機註銷社群全部都刪除徹底從這個恐怖的情人加害者的生活裡面消失後來這個家人加害者就去問同事然後就問房東然後找他的家人結果同事房東都開始罵這一個被害者說他怎麼偷跑了他們合力演了一齣戲 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17148.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17171.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
然後他就成功了從這一個加害者的生活裡面消失了然後後來他又他在臉書上發文但他都已經不是原來的帳號了他在社群全部開新帳號然後都申請新的過去的手機的通訊錄全部刪光因為只要有通訊錄就會有自動跑出社群軟體的帳號還會繼續連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17174.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17201.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
所以呢他連戶籍都掛在戶政事務所勞健保工會信件都用郵政信箱收信所以有的東西他都沒有用自己的名字辦真實的這個帳號都是用室友的就是遇到一次恐怖的情人的下場一輩子活在陰影裡面我今天是要告訴你其實是很困難的而今天我要再舉一個例子是 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17203.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17226.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
統計數據你知道嗎你們的除了這個制度面待會再討論現在加強電子監控再討論以外我們現在要講的是說在社會政策和社會工作學刊2010年的期刊文章裡面親密伴侶的暴力案件保護令成效和相關因素的研究以禁制遷出和遠離令為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17229.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17250.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
這個學者呢這個王佩玲就寫了一篇這個他的發表的期刊他們在保護令核發以後三個月內第一次做調查然後在第九個月做第二次追蹤調查然後發現這個表格在這裡你看你發了保護令然後違反禁止令還繼續有肢體暴力的佔了18.9% 19% 將近兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17254.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17267.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
保護令都發了違反禁制令有恐嚇的言語或行為者29.9%佔了三成在三個月內但是到第九個月的時候還更嚴重他就32.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17271.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17292.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那這個拿到保護令的當事人這個是學者做的當事人有繼續說被騷擾通信有通信的行為的32.7%但是到9個月以後37.5%違反簽出令的然後正式到去報案的是另外一回事可是這個學者做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17293.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17301.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
他的第一次調查三個月內違反簽出令31.9%違反遠離令的30.4%然後到九個月以後違反簽出令還繼續增加到34.5%但是違反遠離令的有稍微降了一點點我是要講這個 是要講什麼呢 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17317.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17344.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
這個違反保護令的占全部案件的有40.940就案件分析他的學者就案件分析違反保護令案件占全部案件的比例大概40.9也就是說10件的保護令的案件當中有4件會違反保護令中之一款或一款以上的內容再者違反這個保護令合法9個月以後你看還 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17345.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17361.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
不會因為時間拉長而施暴者或是加害者他的這個違反違法的行為會降低或減少換句話說違反保護令的比例是呈現穩定的狀態我在這裡是要告訴你們也要告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17366.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17386.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
這一些人真的很難因為一直保護令然後就嚇阻他因為這一個法律所劃定的民事保護令是一個紅線叫他不能再犯對有社經地位有工作的人或者是經濟穩定的人或許有一點嚇阻作用但對那一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17387.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17410.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
或出去了什麼都不在乎的真的是困難啦所以研究者在先前進行這個前導研究對被害人的訪談的時候他們發現一些被害人表示施暴者在核發保護令後表面上肢體暴力沒有了但是會轉而用精神上或其他方面的攻擊或騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17412.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17433.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
然後一方面讓被害人難以蒐證 一方面也達到他繼續施暴的目的好 看這樣的數字 有沒有覺得觸目驚心但是我要問你 在座的各位各位不管是衛福部 教育部 勞動部警政單位 法務主管 移民單位 文化主管 通訊傳播主管對違反保護令的數據這一些數據這麼多人你們可以做什麼 你們可以做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17441.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17469.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
現在談到電子監控 好了來了大家覺得靠一個電子監控就可以了嗎來電子監控那一年有多少的案件啊如果違反家庭暴力罪去年4155個違反保護令罪去年2405個那要誰監控警政署有人力可以監控嗎社家署有人力可以監控嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17471.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17476.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
來 等一下回答我 那我還要再問我對我現在要再問你 包括法務部我也要問你了喔以前 女人要叫 打過了扁換取很多次的驗傷單 才能換到一張保護令而現在不用了 可是呢如果一個恐怖情人來了 你要羈押他 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17493.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17514.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
又要被打多少次 他違反了多少次還要去報警報了多少遍因為家庭暴力防治法 認為有足夠的事實 認為反復實施前開犯罪之餘 而有羈押之必要者得羈押要反復反復 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17516.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17528.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
對不對 構成要件要反覆嘛 有認為有可能反覆之餘嘛有可能會繼續的 所以你要去報案 要求要羈押法官要裁定羈押 要被判很多次 要對方加害者違反保護令很多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17537.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17542.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這樣才會羈押,所以剛才在說羈押的我們羈押的這個層數高達七、八成說這句話的,因為要整個變那大家講電子監控有辦法嗎?那這個羈押制度有沒有需要改變啊?我一定要把它整個變,對方要違法,違整就變你才可以把它羈押,可是你來看喔你來看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17566.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17588.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
包括土城的兩個姊妹被殺都是被殺以後才羈押包括台中車站的被殺以後才羈押包括這一個那個事件就是我們前一陣子那個不是土城命案也不是風雲就是這個古姓女子的命案第一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17591.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17597.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
他的風險評估 也不可能擠壓那擠壓線要畫在哪裡 電子監控要畫在哪裡警政單位有沒有足夠的人力可以監控電子監控 社政單位有沒有足夠的人力和資源可以監控回答大家不要唱高調你為公共的公安 電子監控電子監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17617.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17626.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
現在來電子監控都一單位人在對 主管在對 怎麼都沒有人可以回答 社政單位先 警政署剛才不是有來跑了喔好來你也上來講法務部也上來講大家有沒有知道電子監控電子監控那條線要劃在哪裡什麼程度然後呢有沒有人力有沒有資源蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17648.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17674.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
包委員我想謝謝您分析了這麼多也給這麼多data讓我們心情非常沉重覺得這個真的是非常非常的必須要來來做好所有的該做的事情不要講這一些不要講你個人的心情你告訴我我問的問題趕快回答就好了那該做的如果說大家研擬到電子的一個監測是必要的你是加爆方制法的主管機關對 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17675.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17697.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
你必須要全面性的對制度面還有防治措施你必須要有全面性的看法但是我還不包括你家庭暴力防治法裡面規定每四年對家暴的問題防治的現況成效和需求要進行調查分析然後呢你們公布了2016到2019年我們也是很不滿意那一份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17697.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17702.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
但是2020到現在2020到現在第六年了你們連2020到2023年的這個家暴防治報告都還沒有公告更不要講如果你對家暴的狀況有像剛才那個學者那樣子的研究你們有做過委託研究嗎有嗎有嗎那個市長你兩年久就沒有不知道這個加害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17728.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17733.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
跟被害者所遇到的處境是何等的辛苦和何等的可怕那你們怎麼去談防治呢 防治不是在自己的範圍內說馬上拿出一套辦法不那麼簡單啦2020到2023年到現在才整理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17751.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17774.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
那應該會很快就公佈 今年2025年第二個在整個家暴的工作上面他的確是網絡工作絕對不是靠單一部會能夠完成至於將來如果要實施電子監控我想也不是全面應該做危險分級以及這個分流管理那我想這個部分我們會再跟網絡大家一起來討論來朝這個方向來我是說如果要電子監控你分級 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17781.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17786.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
去做監控沒關係 但是我想妳有辦法做嗎 妳有人力可以做嗎蛤 這個就需要討論對啊 那來警政單位如果再交給警察機關有辦法嗎這個要看到時候有多少對象要列進去多少對象是你們可負擔的一萬個 五千個所以現在是要依據你們的量能來決定要可負擔 然後才再決定分級怎麼劃嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17812.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17813.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
這個就本末倒置囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17815.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17832.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我現在要問的是說到底你的依據加害者的風險程度然後要分級那如果分級出來可能劃進來依照每年的違反家庭暴力罪或者是違反保護令罪的或者是他根本也沒有犯到罪但是他的風險很高的一開始風險就很高都要劃入的話那人很多來司法單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17848.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17874.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
跟委員報告你覺得這樣子的制度的設計對啊那有可能最有可能的方法是什麼對有關那個電子監控的部分將來如果要實施當然就涉及到人力設備以及這個相關的量能經費等等問題那當然這個就有賴那個衛福部再去召集相關的會議來做再做研商那我們都遵守就訊息的編制你們都有辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17876.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17903.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
法務部 警政單位 社政單位我們現行的編制針對那個科控的部分主要是針對那個防逃的部分那當然沒有包括這個部分對啊 它再也不是防逃了它可能是整密的隨時要看在那裡啊或者是你必須用大數據和程式程式設計然後只要踩到什麼線它就立即馬上響了喔這個搞不好是科技部的單位可以做得到吧 科技部 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17904.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17927.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
沒有人來 科技部沒有人來這樣子喔那如果人力上規劃會是哪一個單位 哪個部門我們看衛福部他們將來的那個討論就現有的人力都沒有了警政的人力也在缺少法務部更不可能這要 需不需要修法法務部需不需要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17928.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17939.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
因為這個針對被害人保護的這個科控是屬於這個民事保護令的範圍那目前的限制是沒有的所以他必須要透過法律的修訂才能對阿 修法又要看日廢時阿好 沒錯 這樣你聽到嗎不是在為大家公送 來 電子監控電子監控一句話很簡單的但是呢 現在要落實要做 要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17954.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17981.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
啊再來我要說的是難道就只有電子監控一條途徑嗎沒有其他我們行政、社政、警政部門可以做的更多的嗎所以我剛剛講那個是說啊保定 是政府連調查近年來的違反的樣態比例有哪一些有沒有跨部會如何動用資源協助被害人然後再加以輔導等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17982.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17995.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
如果 如果加害人千萬不要害人的公司你要怎麼因應然後如果有小孩的話 那要怎麼因應所以在這種狀況裡面都不是 剛剛講電子監控而已啊 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17996.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18024.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
道高於尺 魔高於杖 你想不到的又很多但是受害者他的社會經驗不一定足夠可以因應而你的社政單位 你的主管機關你對於這樣的社會教育 你做了哪一些剛才我說的自立救濟的這一個人他是聰明的 因為他都自立救濟讓自己從加害者的生活圈裡面徹底失蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18026.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18049.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
可是一般人都很難而且想不到耶更何況說一拿到你馬上放到網路上給大家宣告其實這是一刀兩刃非常危險的動作當然我們不能指責他我認為是因為我們社政單位我們的警政單位我們的政府都沒有教導被害人要怎麼因應啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18051.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18070.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
我們到底有沒有教育 教育所有的這個社會的人說這個保護令 這個民事保護令是要讓遵守的人遵守的啦那不然要命的 亂來的 根本就不好的啦它沒有辦法物理上阻隔加害者對你的這個靠近那個嚇阻作用而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18075.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18099.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
可是當嚇阻不行的時候 我們當然要加強到另外一個層次那還要修法 那還牽扯到人力那在修法跟人力到位以前又有多少人是暴露在風險之下會不會馬上就又有傷害事件 暴力事件又來了所以現在緊急要做的是 你要趕緊再教育社會大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18101.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18123.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
對嗎?不是只有大廈要說拿到了,就是護身符啊拿到保護令,如果弄得不好的話,有可能的確是催眠符啊因為冬暑假你要申請積壓,他可能就要跟你損傷啊加害者你要申請保護令,拿到了,他豁出去了所以當拿到保護令的時候,是最危險的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18125.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18136.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
這個時候我們應該要教育社會大眾應該要怎麼防範啊對不對我們都沒有啊 我覺得都沒有啊保護令就是一萬兩的這樣事情就大了啦所以這個要討論的問題很大但我剛剛講的羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18143.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18168.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
拜託不要再請國債申請保護令一樣要被打架,甚至冒著被殺的風險才可以被要求羈押加害者羈押制度也是要稍微談一下好,謝謝好,謝謝委員的指教,我們一定遵照這樣的一個建議來努力謝謝,不小心該當過兵了當兩年而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18173.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18195.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
要拿到退與運的時候,就是八字最輕的時候,這是事實,要拿到退與運的時候,就是狀況最不好的時候,拿到之後很高興,當天就出事情,隔天也出事情,所以剛才還有我在講的那個前置,要拿到之前怎麼都沒有聽到有任何處理的方式? |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18197.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18223.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
好 謝謝接下來請洪文凱委員 洪文凱委員不在請陳議員來做詢問謝謝主席 麻煩請警政署跟司法院好 請警政署還有廳長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18229.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18246.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
喔 等一下喔是 脆肉很臭欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18249.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18259.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
趁在消毒的時候跟各位報告我們等一下這個上午的議程結束完之後就馬上進入這個確認健康保險資料管理的協商好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18262.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18283.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
在7月28日監察院的調查報告清楚指出一般跟騷保護令平均需要34.98天家暴跟跟騷的暫時保護令需要22.6天通常保護令高達52.7天相形比較之下緊急保護令因為法律規定4小時內要審結平均僅需要2.24小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18288.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18317.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
那這種巨大的時間差距顯示出司法院在未明確實現的這個保護令審查上缺乏積極的作為我們來看這個近期的這兩個案例土城凶殺案的部分信息男子違反保護令之後他沒有被羈押而且當街殺害了妻子跟小姨子也凸顯了這個保護令及後續執行的行為後續的執行是無效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18317.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18341.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那在夜店女公關這個案子上面呢被害人五月中旬有申請這個戰時保護令但是呢卻因為這個警方跟法院間的這個資料的這個疏漏拖延至七月中旬才核發那期間呢被害人遭到前男友砍殺三十刀身亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18344.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18369.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
在被害人其實當時在5月15號提出申請保護令的時候警方的部分有要求被害人要檢附驗傷單後來他隔天也附了驗傷單但是為什麼警方沒有幫他申請保護令是不是請警政署這邊說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18376.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18402.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我們是有協助被害人申請保護令然後也有檢附相關的被害人的報案的這個資料還有他的陳述他的案情那只是說驗傷單在第一天他沒有帶所以是當天要申請暫時保護令的時候沒有把驗傷單附在裡面但他隔天也補了嗎他第二天來的時候是因為要提傷害的告訴所以我們是併在刑事的卷裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18404.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18418.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
對 那司法院的部分就是說依照這個報導指出你們收到被害人申請保護令的案件裡面沒有驗傷單但後來為什麼你們知道之後沒有通知警方讓整個保護令的這個案件審了兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18425.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18444.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
法院收到保護令立即分案法官會立即審查那申請人是被害人的身份不是機關就是不是警察機關所以立即發一個停期通知那裡面有請被害人補題診斷證明書 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18446.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18465.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
以及不提其他市政令如果有證人請他呈報那是有夠這樣的一個立即通知但是一直在開庭前一直都沒有收到這是目前我們了解的狀況所以目前司法院這邊你們那裡是沒有任何的疏失 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18466.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18486.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
不能這麼說我們一定要精進就是說保護令的申請是一個家事非送事件他必須用法官要以公益性來依職權探知的一個職權調查的方式所以是有義務去做必要的一個所以你們需要謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18488.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18510.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
對 必須改進去調取或者除了請被害人補證以外也可以做其他的調取跟請警方 這個是要改進的地方這樣的回覆也是在我們預期之內總結是這個緩慢的審查速度是否 大家要去思考的是否是間接讓被害人暴露在這個高風險之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18511.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18532.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那為什麼只有這個緊急保護令他可以被快速的審結那其他的保護令呢卻可以這樣子拖延數週甚至數個月我想這樣子的拖延也導致被害人喪失了性命我想從這個案例我們是可以讓大家去省思的 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18535.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18545.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
當然司法院常常會以審慎查證為由解釋保護令審查耗時但是這個暫時保護令需要22.6天通常保護令需要52.7天這樣的一個效率你們認為是合理的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18556.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18570.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
是 報告委員那我們一直要做很多統計分析來努力分類這個是統合全部的各類原因合法的一個總數所以你認為這樣的時數是太短還是剛剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18572.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18596.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
一定要再往前一定要再縮短我想以夜店這個女公關的案子為例警方跟法院間的資料傳遞的疏失導致保護令延遲核發司法院難道一點責任都沒有嗎是 我報告一下在定期開庭前面都沒有收到補正當然法院要檢討說依職檢去調取 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18599.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18602.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
第二個當下我們來看到內容是這樣就是說沒有來開庭法官當天就立即批示通知我們的所謂的加防中心立即去查訪被害人跟加害人請他趕快提一個相關的評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18619.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18643.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
那這一個做法是對的但是呢後面長達一個月報告才來這個我們也要改進要去要去催促我想這些都是人命關天的問題但也樂見說透過這樣子的案件大家有一個比較深刻的檢討那本席認為就是問題的根源是在於法律警 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18645.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18664.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
僅僅對於這個緊急保護令設有4小時審查審結的這個實現那其他的保護令呢缺乏明確的這個期限那導致說那法院是不是這樣就可以慢慢來那如果司法院在未來可以更積極的這個處理我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18665.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18682.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
很多的悲劇它是可以避免的我想請教司法院這邊說你們是否承認說這個核發的效率不足然後有未來有一些準備怎麼樣的這個改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18683.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18695.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
報告委員我們在那個法例沒有明定期限之下從一開始保護令在受理的時候就已經有一個所謂內控機制就是有關於暫時保護令最晚兩個月內一定要發出如果兩個月內沒有發出就已經違反了我們的行政督導規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18704.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18716.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
那麼通保令是四個月內沒有發出就違反我們行政的督導跟管控了這是第一個部分那第二個部分委員說明的部分就是所謂的有沒有任何檢討說縮短有我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18719.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18749.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
在這幾次甚至於之前也有檢討過幾次那統計分析的結果是這樣我說明三個原因造成會沒有辦法收短第一個就是說因為定期開庭是通保令一定要定期開庭那定期依規定要給他合法送達加上合理準備期間所以他可能要兩個禮拜最少再來就是說那個我們裡面有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18750.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18758.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
未成年子女兒童的部分那因為發禁止接觸令後援離令他會涉及到刺激加害人然後產生很嚴重的報復所以基於這樣就要請社會局我們的加防中心各管社工去 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18768.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18773.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
很詳細的提出一個會面監督保護兒童的計畫那這個可能也至少要兩個禮拜再來就是說加害人因為有高風險因子跟暴力那我們要請他來接受鑑定那這個鑑定短則兩個禮拜長則一個月那因為這些因素所以我們正在想這些因素有沒有什麼縮短可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18792.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18817.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我想本期讓你有充分的時間去做一個說明我想我相信就是說大家都對於這樣的一個案件的憾事我們其實都非常想要想盡辦法來說短整個審查核發的一個時間避免這個未來的憾事再發生所以也請這個司法院就是務必 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18817.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18833.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
在檢討各類保護令平均核發的時間然後盡量的去縮短並且要明定這個審查實現的這個標準那再來針對這個夜店女公關案的疏失也請說明這個法院內這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18836.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18862.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
內部流程的問題並且要提出這個改善的措施而且另外就是警政署的部分在夜店女公關案中警方為何沒有及時補齊這個驗傷單的資料導致保護令延遲以及如何改善這個警方跟法院間資料的串接確保被害人申請保護令的這個流程順暢都希望兩個單位在一個月內能夠提出檢討報告是 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18866.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18890.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
快速的提最後一個問題就是在兩年前本席也在這裡質詢過有關於這個跟騷法第五條被害人申請保護令必須書面告誡送達後的兩年內行為人有在犯的話才能申請保護令那保護令其實這樣的一個規定就是給這樣的行為人多了一個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18892.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18905.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
多了書面告誡就等於給行為人兩次的機會那我我認為當初的修法一直要這個書面告誡後兩個年內再犯的規定說穿了 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18907.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18930.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
我們合理的去懷疑就是司法院不希望申請保護令的案件有太多那我覺得說一般跟騷的申請保護令的情形可以再做更細緻的一個區分或許說在通訊騷擾的行為太樣先書面告誡就好或許是可以考慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18930.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18950.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
那但是這個盯梢尾隨還有這個監視觀察的這個行為仍然還是用這個書面告誡就好嗎這個是值得省思的但像這樣的狀況被害人已經是長期暴露在一個高風險當中根本是不需要再給行為人這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18953.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18978.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
跟上法2022年实行到现在呢受到书面告诫的行为人有一成多的这个行为人根本不理会这个书面告诫而且在被害人申请保护令之后呢有54%的人他们根本就不甩这个保护令对于这样的行为人为什么还要再给他们这个二次的机会 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18979.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19005.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
我想這個部分本席也已經有提案希望在至少對於行為太陽再做更細緻的區分那如果這些無視於書面的告誡不甩保護令的人都是同樣特定太陽的行為人那本席強烈認為法律就不應該再給這些人二次的機會所以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19006.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19032.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
司法院回去一個月內將所有一般跟騷的這個案件還有申請保護令合法保護令違反保護令的行為太樣全部都個別釐清做統計並且就是說修法針對這個高行為高行為的這個太樣取消兩年再犯的限制讓被害人能夠立即申請保護令謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19038.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19048.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
好 謝謝好啦還要再留臉吧有點時不得走謝謝很少看到這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19050.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19078.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
來本日會議宣達全部結束委員陳冠廷、陳培宇、盧憲伊、徐欣盈、徐富奎所提順便質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在做一下決定第一報告及宣達完畢第二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以順便答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定那我們上午議程到此結束那繼續在本會議室並按協商全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等八案好 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19079.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19093.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
那其他的我們的列席觀點都可以跟這個案沒有關係就可以先離開了也拜託各位啦很多委員特別提到很多盲點的部分請各單位針對這個家暴洪世華一定要慎重的來面對不要再讓憾事發生,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19098.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19100.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
今天學商的時候就沒有那個螢幕可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19124.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19128.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
所以通過的條文要請他們給現場委員確定一下現場還沒有國民黨委員為什麼?沒有民眾黨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19145.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19163.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
1922條主要是在,這個是他們的資料,那這個是他們桌上的資料是這個,他們給委員的資料是這個。好。好,我們請,先請相關的研究做後。 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19167.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19177.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
我們現在等一下協商完之後會讓大家休息差不多十分鐘讓大家也去去去盧測一下這個比較快我們現在解決現在進行這個協商的會議避難協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19185.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19207.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
本院社會福利暨衛生環境委員會的報告並按審查行政院函請審議委員葉勤、委員邱正軍等18人、委員王玉敏等24人、委員徐玉珍等18人、委員林淑雯等22人及委員劉建國等19人分別凝聚全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等7案第二是這個委員王秀旭等20人凝聚全民健康保險資料管理條例草案進戶遏讀的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19212.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19232.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
那現在介紹在場委員我們第一位陳昭芝陳委員第二位王智旭王委員第三位林淑雲林委員然後介紹與會的官員還是我們部長齁我們衛福部部長邱大元謝謝中央健康保險署署長施忠良 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19233.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19262.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
生物保險師代理師長陳貞蕙謝謝法規會參謀師陳信成謝謝統計處處長李秋晏謝謝資訊處副處長王美珠謝謝還有教育部高等教育師專門委員賴冠維好 謝謝還有技術及職業教育師科長鄭淑珍謝謝還有法務部參謀師汪蘭君好 謝謝還有國家科學及技術委員會生命科學研究發展處副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19263.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19264.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
還有個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組組長林玉佳 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19283.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19310.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
好我先今天進行的流程是請衛務部先說明然後再請各位委員提出意見然後最後這個會眾協商結論那衛務部目前已經提出本案第19條第22條的建立條文應該都有在各位的桌子上那請大家參閱那現在就來討論第19條的條文那第一我們先請衛務部來做說明之後再請各位委員其他單位再表示意見好請衛部 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19312.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19322.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
稍微各位委員感謝大家在這段時間大家來針對比較正義的條文做了很多的討論是不是我們就請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19332.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19352.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
主席還有各位委員這兩條條文我們有在事先也跟幾位委員主要跟趙志偉委員跟林淑芬委員有在進行討論那19條的部分那麼第一款我們把它做了修正讓它明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19353.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19374.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
那麼這個依其他法律讓它明確一點所以把它按照我們本法第十條第一項跟第三項的規定也就是說這個政府機關夠依其法律執掌那麼所執行的部分把它明列所以這個是第一款的修正然後第二款呢那麼把它做了刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19375.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19393.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
因為希望讓他明確一點所以把他這個所謂的國家安全這個刪除那但是保留原來第三款為免除人民之生命身體或財產上之急迫危險但是呢新增第二項那麼當要 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19396.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19423.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
引用這個第二款情形來這個排除這個退出資料退出的退出權行使的部分呢那麼限於政府機關購申請利用而已而且必須要續明這個使用的目的跟必要性以及使用的期限跟運用的情形並公告所以做這樣的一個修正那至於第二法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19425.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19453.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
法則22條的部分我們有在原本的院版再跟兩位委員做說明那主要是針對不論以任何方式取得這些資料那麼未經這個主管機關或保險人那麼核准利用的都給予高額的罰款這個以上的說明好 謝謝署長的說明來 請陳昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19455.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19472.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
主席你今天辛苦了我早上很聽你的話我沒講完就下來結果我發現很多人都沒聽你的話反而可以把話講完所以麻煩你讓我就是第19條把我的意見能夠就是說明清楚不會很長但是主席代表我們黨團的一個基本的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19473.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
19496.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
第一我要談的是健保資料庫所收集資料都具有從出生到死亡的時間持續性也就是說你連死後都不可能再退出這基本上是這樣子那根據歐盟的他有一個條款叫GDPR就是一般資料保護規範的第六條第一項規定除非是經資料主體也是當事人同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
19497.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
19521.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
或为了保护当事人或他人的重要利益否则公务机关的执行业务执行职务的时候不得援引他同条DF款的叫概括性的正当利益来做依据就是一个非常非常特殊情况下你不能用概括性的一个正当利益来做依据那同一条的第三项规定他们说当C款当这个公务机关基于 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
19521.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
19548.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
履行法律义务而强制现在就有点在讨论这部分强制收集资料利用各资时或是以这个第一ABCD的一款执行公务为依据而收集处理或利用各资时均应该用法律明定各资处理或利用的特定目的就是说法律要非常的明确就说明定哪些各资收集资料处理跟利用行为是执行公务所必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
19549.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
19574.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
簡單的說就是在這樣的一個規範下公務機關如果不是基於當事人同意而強制收集處理利用各資質或基於保護當事人或其他重要利益其他人的重要利益的原因而強制收集此這個利用處理利用的各資質必須要有明確的行為法依據並接受比例原則的檢驗就是我的一切基礎在這個地方那回到我們今天第19條這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
19575.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19602.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
霸王條款這個霸王條款所以你業局的退出權的例外限制就是已經退出了要求退出的國人健保資料又被強制拉回來使用那這個例外範圍非常的寬鬆廣泛跟剛剛我提到的這個歐盟前述在規定是違背那我個人認為也難以通過憲法的這個比例原則的這個檢驗所以這個更不用說我們現在還有比我們更早的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19604.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19633.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
做这件事的德国德国在有关电子病历资料库的法规上根本没有这种退出权利外的限制规定就是一旦退出就不可能再去做强制的让他收回来所以就算保留刚刚时长念的保留条条文的第一项第三款今天健保署提出来的第一项第二款为了免除人民的生命身体或财产的财产上的急迫危险 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19634.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19647.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
好像有这个必要但是仍应该要具体化内容目前写的东西过于空泛什么叫免除人民的生命身体或财产的急迫危险例如你要明定适用于譬如说传染病 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
19649.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
19655.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
跟其他公共衛生的危險疾病趨勢的監測疫苗計劃效果評估藥品不良反應追蹤等等以及食原性或環境傳染性風險等情境這個條件跟範圍都要寫清楚目前這個內容還是太空泛了所以我還是想說第19條規定不管是保留條文還是學商條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
19671.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
19685.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
都是非常空泛的例外決定等於是架空人民的退出權架空人民的退出權完全違背憲法第110年度憲判制第13號的判決的意旨所以今天的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
19687.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
19704.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
協商版本裡面當中的拿掉了一家什麼危害國家安全那個是更空泛的那現在目前用的這個字眼免除人民生命身體或財產的急迫危險我認為我代表我們黨認為我們認為還是太空泛還需要更具體的一個描述好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員的意見那還有沒有其他委員有意見來好請林淑雯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
19717.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
19731.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
這個第二項我本來是想說這樣子是不是能夠至少有知情權因為霸王條款大家都不能退出所以想說如果非如此不可的話至少要有知情權 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
19733.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
19761.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
那因為民眾黨黨團這樣的意見我突然想到有沒有一種可能的方法在這個舊有的現在黨團協商的這個提出來的版本和民眾黨黨團的意見之間我們是不是還可以在第一項第二款裡面就是衛免除人民之生命身體或財產上之急迫危險那這個東西要不要再限定在一個就是說因為理論上第一款就已經有法律保留原則已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
19762.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
19780.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
那第二項就是說如果有法律授權的話那會更明確那這種條件第二款你要讓他沒有法律保留的這個狀況然後就要用然後而且是強度最高的霸王條款的話是不是必須再框定一個就是說違法律上立法來不及 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
19781.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
19809.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
比如說COVID-19發生了那你可能要臨時立一個法律來不及但是你現在就必須大家的資料通通都要拿出來用了在這種狀況就是違法律這個來不及立法的程序上曠日廢時來不及才可以啟動最緊急的所以是不是第二項裡面應該講還必須要講因序名這個緊急性使用緊急性必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
19810.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
19834.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
就沒有辦法來得及完成立法啦那至於說拿掉了這個國家安全維護的這個從善如流啦因為事實上我不認為我們的健康資料跟國家安全會直接會畫上有高度相關的可能啦對所以這個是不是再一次的提出一個看法啦 謝謝好 謝謝 接下來請王正旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
19840.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
19862.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
謝謝主席有關第19條的部分如果依照預計協商的這個最後的字眼的話我剛剛是蠻贊同兩位委員的一些想法包括說我們本來是有國家安全那我自己當初也認為說要增進公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
19863.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
19884.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
這個也算是大家在這個就醫過程裡面會留下珠貴的寶貴的這些資產讓我們在增進公共利益上面是有所幫助如果他真的很想退出的話基本上就要尊重他所以就不用把它列為這個必要的一個重要的包含條款的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
19885.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
19912.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
那不過有關於針對第二款為免除人民之生命身體或財產上的急迫危險有時候真的在執行上有它的困境比如說剛剛林所委員所提到的一個突發性的感染它突然對於民眾的健康造成重大風險甚至會引起這個危及生命的時候那這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
19914.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
19938.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
這些人的資料真的非常的寶貴我們希望能夠減少其他人受到更大的影響之下那如果他執意要退出我們萬一有一群人他執意要退出的時候那對後續的整體的照顧不僅是對台灣可能對全球的民眾都造成重大的影響那在那種狀況之下我們如何能夠有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
19939.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
19948.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
好的法律規範剛剛孫委員有希望能夠有更完整的配套說明或者是如何把它納為文字的說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
19950.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
19973.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
好請林委員我可不可以再就詢一下因為這個我們本來想像的都是大數據的狀況現在如果我們縮小到有沒有一種可能是說可能一種特殊的然後從來很少見的特殊的傳染病你知道現在很多特殊的病毒細菌那只有特殊感染過的人才可能會有這種這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
19975.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
20004.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
data可以使用那是不是有可能像這種就必須要臨時然後去找出他的解方就我本來想像的我們大家都不能退出好像是一個大數據這種的研究可是這有可能是在一個小眾的小群的但是你必須就不能讓他退出的這種可能性所以這個我不曉得是不是有這種可能那個請衛福部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
20007.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
20032.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
那這個 陳教授委員講完之後再請一併答覆啦好不好 謝謝就是第二款的部分我們再讀一下就是說它還是很空泛啦免除人民生命身體或財產是急迫危險目前還是空泛那當然如果能夠具體寫剛剛兩位委員 林委員跟網友都有提到譬如說感染病啊 心性感染病那其實我剛剛在舉例的時候也有舉到類似的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
20033.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
20058.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
意思是說即便在歐盟這樣的國家他們也是認為要有特定目的或明定這個都可以預期啊剛剛大家都已經講那麼清楚譬如說某些的一個狀況所以我們希望是不要是形容詞啊生命其實真的這個急迫危險這個都是形容詞堆砌的東西所以我們希望是現在都可以預期啊台灣的醫療這麼進步然後這個大概普遍的水準大家認同啊所以我剛剛就唸了好多譬如我只是舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
20061.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20070.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
傳染病、公共衛生風險、疾病趨勢監測、疫苗計畫效果評估、藥品不良反應推動等等或是一些實驗性環境環境的風險等情境這個你只要條件範圍都把它寫出來因為這條法令不得了了這條答案是因為我們今天的討論是因為一個違憲的判決所以要我們制定這個法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20081.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20093.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
那如果我們制定的又不符合原來的精神然後這非常重要大家全世界也在看喔人民說不要你硬要要的時候那你是不是要講清楚講清楚應該不困難謝謝好那請衛部來做這個陳委員有沒有建議的版本更具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
20104.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
20122.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
我剛剛是有唸了大概七八種狀況啦那個十四號兩位都是醫師啊你們就就是說相對等一下你可以討論或怎麼舉出來因為你們會了解哪些狀況那我們來這個狀況確實是符合的不要再用形容詞就是直接的那個狀況就直接寫出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
20128.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
20140.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
謝謝主席跟各委員報告其實說我們在立法說明裡面有例舉啦但是要把它通通寫到這個這個條文裡面真的有它的困難度所以我們有例舉嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
20141.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
20166.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
在說明欄裡面特別有提到像傳染病或其他公共衛生風險認知疾病或其風險趨勢之控制預防疾病及風險傳播免疫計畫之實施等等我們寫了很多例舉在說明欄因為要把這個東西通通具象化有它的困難度而且這個在相關的這些文字在刑法裡面相當也都有這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
20166.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
20185.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
用字這些用字不是我們這個條文自己長出來的在刑法裡面有多條都有出現這樣的文字用法那我舉個例子來講像在不論是在這個大家回想這個SARS的早期剛開始的零星個案的時候大家並不清楚這是什麼病 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
20186.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
20214.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
那需要研究COVID開始的時候少部分的聚落發生也都是這樣所以那個確實剛開始你不會馬上去想要立法做什麼事情但是確實它的資料就要進行研究所以我們當然寫的大概是類似像這樣未來遇到有像生物武器生化武器那一類的其實都有可能會涉及到這個公共衛生 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
20215.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
20240.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
那再講個更平常一點的也許有一些是一些不明原因的中毒事件也可能會碰到這樣的情形所以我們才在這個說明欄裡面特別去提到這是公共衛生風險還有一些傳染病等等這一些的主席請出言不好意思我們要求進入母法我們要進入不是在說明的處理你都可以講這麼清楚了還說有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
20242.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
20248.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
不要忘記這個條款非常重要非常經典非常代表性的人民說不要你說你不准不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
20250.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
20273.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
那你都可以講出這麼多經驗了怎麼可能寫不出來呢就寫啊就寫啊沒有跟委員報告啊其實其實在各支法的第16條也是有得為目的外利用之文字當時候第16條的第一項第三款也是用這樣的文字衛免除當事人之生命身體自由或財產上之危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
20274.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
20287.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
各自法律都不要提了我們現在在面對一個危險的但這樣聽下來就是說剛剛講的那些都牽扯到緊急啦所以我們第二項的文字我覺得緊急這個字眼應該的確要上去是沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
20288.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
20314.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
那陳委員你覺得第二款的條款不夠限縮太抽象我們是不是在立法說明欄裡面應該可以講說這個所謂的這個免除人民的生命身體或財產上的急迫危險指涉的是傳染病或其他公共衛生風險認知疾病等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
20317.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
20334.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
對啦如預防控制傳染病的傳播 避免公共衛生的風險因涵蓋所有人民 非局限於當事人比如說這樣子就把所謂的這他認為抽象的文字是指涉的是什麼 放在立法說明欄 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
20336.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
20361.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
要放上去 因為法律的明確性不是靠說明來處理的我當然有 明確性如果你把這個東西指涉的是什麼在立法說明欄裡面放進去它是有效率的立法的意旨 立法的意旨是什麼霸王條款 地王條款霸王條款就是它完全高強度不准許你退出嘛那比如說生化武器的這個攻擊來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
20362.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
20376.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
那你就這一百個人受災可是你這個裡面可能四五個人或是十個人其實是退出的那你怎麼去做研究《僵化武器》它剛剛就唸出來你要寫也可以寫啊當年我沒認為不是啊那你到底要怎麼個寫法可能會很多所以我們才講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
20378.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
20392.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
立法說明欄署長你們是專家因為你們有意見那你也可以告訴我們說你的配套是什麼啊如果大家覺得有困難那我就保留保留沒有保留到最後你也是要拿出版本那你的版本拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
20393.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
20397.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
我們可以一起討論啊所以我的意思是說你不滿意你要再限縮我們也可以支持但你必須要明確的講出說到底是你希望它長成什麼樣子因為你要放到你意思現在講的是說你不想放在立法說明欄你需要放在法條的條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
20412.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
20432.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
好啦 我處理好不好OK啦 沒關係沒關係 因為我們還有下一個議程要處理額托的部分各位如果在這地方還有一些意見我是不是休個五分鐘請署長跟市長跟委員再溝通一下今天可以我們就協商完成 不可以就下次再協商 好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
21698.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
21726.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
好,還沒有去...去...去...部長,要去趕快去沒有啦,他主流行駛,你要去那裡啊看他行不行,沒關係,我都沒關係因為我要接下一個議程了家屬有通過的話,就要印出來,讓大家確認過沒有通過的話,就是有保留的話,就是宣讀這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
21736.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
21744.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
這個頓子現在已經沒信用了啊頓子要重拾得不最大的信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
21831.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
21841.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
那個 麻煩肯加快好不好我們兩點四十以前就結束 兩點四十我就要接下一個我們要繼續審查那個那個額托 麻煩你一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
21907.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
21923.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
主席他們要填這個很困難不然這一條先保留好嗎您先往下你的進度021沒有沒有然後你有托那個鵝托法你還有鵝托法 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
22178.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
22193.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
主席抱歉,我帶回去黨團協商,謝謝你我帶回去黨團討論,然後我們再進入保留,我們保留,謝謝好,謝謝啦,沒關係啦,我是見你耳後,像這個要協商的是不是你們所處黨人應該都先討論有共識之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
22197.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
22226.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
對阿因為之前也有講過才會大家有空事今天才會排協商嘛基本上是這樣好沒關係啦今天協商結果宣告如下齁這個十九條二十二條齁我們就保留擇取續審那今天這不用講了阿今天議程再詢問一下齁十九條我們保留啦二十二條各位沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
22228.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
22249.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
好那就照行政院的修正通過啦好不好行政院提案通過好就照行政院有的提案通過好謝謝那請務務部再提供通過條文的立法說明好謝謝那今日議程進行完畢那散會好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
22252.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
22276.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
我就覺得為什麼要再寫這個東西啊來好那我們進行這個下午的議程主席要不要休息一下 乾脆3點再開始剛剛已經有休息過 剛剛就已經在這邊宣告了你要讓議事人員休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
22288.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
22312.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
林委員請尊重我的主持啦好不好我不是不讓議事人員休息啦不可能啦剛剛他們是有分開輪組的你可以看一下竹米才上來來現在繼續開會本日會下午會議成為繼續審查行政會函請審議委員分別凝聚兒童托育服務法草案等20案以及審查委員分別凝聚兒童托育服務法草案等9案 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
22313.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
22336.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
還是一樣,現在介紹在場的委員這個應該省略了好不好?可以啦齁?好,OK,好然後官員應該都一樣啦齁?好,謝謝,就省略好,謝謝來這就省略嘛,OK,好我們上次審查到 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
22339.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
22356.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
先做以下說明 本委員會先請基金行政院及委員所提的兒童托育服務法草案等二十案進行主條審查那經決議有保留條文及第十一條以下條文要令則其繼續審查那本次會議再加入委員張雅琳 委員吳祁銘 委員吳麗華 委員陳清輝 委員蘇巧慧 委員顏寬文 委員黃建豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
22360.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
22383.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
委員黃澎凱等本席共9個提案與上述20案並案自第11條以下條文及保留條文繼續審查以上報告那本次在家務次提案僅進行提案說明不令做懸打現在請這個新增提案委員來做說明提案要職委員2分鐘那提案委員應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
22389.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
22413.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
都沒有到好這個我們就不再進行吼好有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在繼續審查兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案其中也會新增教務的九個提案版本提案條文內容均已放入條文對照表一併審查那一例就不再宣讀列入紀錄請議委員有依 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
22414.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
22425.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
沒有 謝謝那我們就從院版第11條繼續審查以及行政院提案調適為準進行討論每條條件先請行政單位說明接著再請委員來表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
22443.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
22457.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
主席及各位委員來11條,請新幹員先來做說明好,第11條我們這次的話是依照上一次討論的結果有把整個托育人員的資格的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
22457.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
22478.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
那我們原來行政院版的條文我們在規範的架構是分別針對居家托育和機構托育去規定他的人員資格那考慮到這樣在寫的時候其實人員資格實際上是相當的所以在這兩次審查的這個委員會審查的期間我們跟幾位委員爭取了委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
22479.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
22496.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
我們把條文重新做了一次的整理主要的結構是參考了林淑溫委員的版本的意見我們將來會在後面的條文因為有一個專章去處理托育人員全部的資格和訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
22497.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
22508.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
那所以我們在這邊把文字做了一個修正我們有一個修正建議的版本的文字我們同仁應該已經有發下去應該是在第11條請確還沒有發 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
22512.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
22533.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
我們現在有把條文秀在,先投影在上面當然可以畫,但是你投影的時候再畫一些,不然有很多會淋亂我們請同仁一方面投影在上面,然後同仁把這個條文提供給委員這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
22534.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
22551.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
那我们大概在文字会建议成第11条的部分就是变成符合第几条规定具托育专业人员资格者要填据申请书检据相关文件然后向直辖市县市主管机关来办理登记取得居家托育服务 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
22553.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
22578.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
證書後使得提供居家托育服務直轄市縣市主管機關也要自行或委託居家托育服務中心來做辦理居家托育人員的登記管理媒合輔導監督或檢查第三項居家托育人員對於直轄市縣市主管機關的監督及檢查不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時也不宜不得藉故藏匿 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
22580.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
22608.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
訂立第一項居家主委人員的登記、收託人數、輔導管理、廢紙登記事項及其他應徵事項的辦法由中央署管理機關定之那以上請各位委員來參考那我們同仁正在發好各位委員請參閱社交組提供的這個資料這我有了吧我有了對我一樣對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
22618.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
22641.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
那我們今天提供委員的這個建議的文字大概在二三四項的部分基本上比較沒有修正比較沒有調整那就是把第一項原來對於實際上他的資格是不是要取得證書技術士證書或者相關學校畢業的我們將來會在後面的條次我們把這個針對配合做G這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
22643.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
22671.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
托嬰中心托嬰機構的資格會整併在同一個條文所以在這邊就不重複做一個續寫的動作那以上說明好 各位委員 行政院提出的第11條已經呼喚給各位了 各位參考看看白色這個白色這個 條文在螢幕上就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
22674.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
22699.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
各位請參考一下有意見再表示來 請林業群委員我釐清一下這樣的寫法等於是把原來認定的像取得保姆跟拖延員技術證和第二項高級中等這要整個全部移到後邊去做規範嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
22701.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
22715.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
是,會移到後面的條式或規範那目前我們現在初步的版本應該因為後面會有一個專章對於人員的部分有一個專那個原來在院版的條文就已經有一個專章我們會把條文全部集中到那裡去 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
22716.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
22745.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
因為我們現在行政院報到行政院送到立法院這邊來的條文原來是分別在居家托育和機構托育的部分都有去兩次分別都有去寫相關的人員資格那因為這個有一部分會有一點重複所以我們這次在跟幾位委員大概爭取過委員的意見之後我們把主要是在文字的部分去做了一個整合實質上的資格內容是沒有變動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
22753.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
22776.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
好 顧委員 詹委員請委員詹委員請委員 對不起 對不起 抱歉現在是11條嘛 對不對11條的部分的話 我這邊是要增加就是在第1 2 3 4第三項的部分呢 我是要在檢查時我們本來是且不得借過藏匿兒童 我前面增加了一個德部 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
22777.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
22794.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
是得不经事先通知就是说虽然现在各县市社会局各地的居托中心都得以无预警访视但是因为尚未有法律的规范那仅以这个县市政府的公文佐证这个效力无法支持居托中心的访视员行使访视权 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
22795.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
22820.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
加上有一些部分的公寓大厦会以无住户授权为由拒绝访试员进入所以我是希望这一次是明文的去定明相关的规范来协助我们的居托中心访试员可以来去进行访试的工作保护我们的幼儿的权益那因为不预约访试的优点就可以避免像我们这次遇到的凯开案就是保姆一直用很多的理由去不让这个社工去 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
22821.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
22836.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
去訪視所以我認為這個就可以避免托育人員提前準備啦或是像是他可能暫時移轉兒童等等的我們就可以更真實的去看到日常環境的一個照顧現場跟狀況來確保兒童的安全跟權益不受干擾這樣子謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
22840.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
22868.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
好 謝謝莊委員還有其他委員表示意見嗎來陳秦惠委員之後再換葉業琴委員我想問一下主管機關因為中間第二段有講到說登記管理媒合輔導監督檢查不知道這邊可不可以也加上評鑑因為基本上你們做的事情就包含了評鑑並且大家也會希望把這些評鑑的報告可以公開到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
22869.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
22895.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
到網站資訊上面陳委員要增加評鑑可以嗎跟兩位委員報告有關張雅琳委員的修正動力的部分如果是委員等下討論的結果是確定要第一個是目前實務執行上其實不管是針對居家托育的保姆或者是一般行政上的檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
22896.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
22923.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
其實法律並沒有規定一定要事先通知才能去所以本來就可以做這點是可以的只是說剛才委員有提到這個有一些例如說是因為是在尤其居家保姆的型態他是在公寓大家裡面有可能在進入的時候會不會有一些障礙如果文字上一定是要增加的話我們會建議或許可以考慮在第二項的最後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
22925.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
22944.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
我們可以看看是不是要再增加相關的文字另外有關陳委員所提到的評鑑的部分目前主要是因為大概現行對於居家保姆的部分是並沒有進行評鑑大概都是實際上做檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
22945.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
22971.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
那或者是做相關的訪視跟檢查而且目前實際上每年都有一定的頻率都有在做而且檢查表的內容也已經相關的事項都已經規定的相當的詳細那如果是進行評鑑的話那這個國內以現在有一兩萬的對不起有兩萬多位的居家托育人員那在辦理的時候其實以目前如果參考機構的評鑑的架構來進行的話在 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
22974.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
22999.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
不管是地方政府或者是由中央政府來做評鑑的時候其實這個在行政上操作上確實是有一定程度的困難我們會建議是不是我們在未來在執行從加強行政檢查的方向來優先來做一個推動所以您的意思是說在您檢查或是監督這些居家托育人員他們只會被分成合格或是不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
22999.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
23019.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
他將來不會現在的檢查不會有所謂的合格或不合格但是他裡面所有的檢查的項目檢查完以後有沒有達不到規定的地方本來就會要求這些居家保姆做相關的修改或者是改善那如果發現已經在檢查的過程發現有違法的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
23020.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
23044.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
那目前的情況居托中心就把資料提供給縣市政府那就直接可以依照兒照法的規定去做相關的裁罰所以家長是可以查詢到的內容目前這個部分家長現在是沒有查詢那未來未來呢未來的話如果有需要我們可以來裁罰的資訊是會公開的但是那個檢查的結果目前是沒有在做相關的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
23046.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
23073.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
好 請林建群委員再請黃婕委員 再請張委員好 跟著我想請我們的衛福部做一下說明就是說我這邊有針列一項也就是居家托育人員的登記 收托時間人數輔導管理跟托育服務環境費子登記 收退費這些相關的規定和第二項的居家托育服務中心的執行業務管理監督檢查輔導跟品檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
23076.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
23101.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
因為居托中心事實上是要評鑑剛剛陳靜薇委員講說保母要不要評鑑我覺得大家人數很多可是居家托育中心居扶中心事實上是在管理保母的她應該要被評鑑可是沒有看到有相關的母法要去授權執法所以我在這邊爭略我想問一下我們的衛福部這邊要希望你們在這個法裡面去授權執法去訂定這相關的措施以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
23103.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
23127.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
來 再請黃婕委員 之後再招待林委員好 那我的意見也是 因為在我的第11條裡面其實有把保姆的祭典制度直接放進去那這個其實也是跟脫盟之前討論出很多次的溝通出來的一個版本但是衛福部好像明明都知道團體的訴求是什麼可是最後還是沒有辦法把這個版本入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
23127.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
23154.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
那可不可以在明確的說明之外難行之處那這個尤其是這一次的這一條其實對於保姆到底要怎麼讓他退場其實真的蠻重要的所以如果你們不放進去那是有其他的方式來訂定這個相關的退場機制嗎那如何去鑑定說到底哪一些保姆違規而且是累犯了讓他們有警惕然後也讓這些認真照顧小孩的保姆對他們來說也很公平啊因為他們才是一個優良的保姆嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
23154.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
23176.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
那這個依據很重要所以我希望衛福部要告訴我為什麼不能放入包目祭典誌謝謝好謝謝請張委員我想確認一下因為剛有提到說如果要加德部經事先通知的話要加在第二項那第二項的部分要怎麼加待會可以說明一下嗎然後剛還有那個托育的這個祭典誌因為我原本是把它放在第82條對那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
23181.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
23209.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
因為這個其實還是一樣啦就是說居家成為業人員的違規行為應該以風險程度來分一些等級啦累積一定的點數就應該要暫停收拖我覺得這個部分的話我自己也是蠻認同的啦這個我們是不是82條因為他是在罰則處分裡面嘛我補充一下放在哪一條放在第11條或82條我都沒意見但是如果衛福部是接受這樣的意見的話也要告訴我們你們會接受而且是放在哪一個條次謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
23212.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
23234.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
好請署長一併回應委員大概提到三個問題第一個是有關居托中心的評鑑的部分因為這一次在兒托法的草案在這一次訂定的時候其實我們未來對於居托中心的定位和現在的狀況會有一些不一樣的地方現在它等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
23234.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
23253.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
以政府採購的方式政府去採購服務的方式來處理那這一次在兒童法的草案裡面我們未來是把居托中心定位成是直轄市縣市政府在托育服務的等於類似行政的助手因為不只是行政助手甚至是 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
23253.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
23275.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
有委託公權力委託執行公權力的性質所以他等於就是可以來操作相關的公權力所以大概從這樣定位的改變來看他就比較比較不會是屬於一個比較純民間的服務所以我們在這次草案裡面我們並沒有特別去訂定是不是要去做相關的評鑑因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
23275.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
23299.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
他就是行政機關我直接就可以對他做更詳細跟更深入的管理那第二個記點制的部分那行政院的草案的部分現在我們雖然是沒有原來院版草案沒有這個納進來但是在跟幾位委員討論過之後我們目前傾向於是會把這個條文放進去那我們初步的規劃是把它擺在如果用院版的草案看我們會在院版的72條之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
23301.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
23329.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
或增加一個條文院版的72條之前我們會增加一個我們預計會在72條之前會去增加一個條文那就這個有關祭典的制度我們來做一個處理那這邊大概也跟委員做一個報告這邊祭典制度我們現在現在會請教一個把他納進來那具體那個要祭典的點數或者哪些事項會用授權的方式來處理來做規範那最後一個剛才當然你有在提到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
23330.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
23357.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
不事先通知的文字应该怎么处理我们具体的建议可以在这个条文第二项的最后面原来的条文到辅导监督或检查然后我们就改成分号后面加几个字检查时并得不经事先通知据点 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
23375.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
23376.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
這個單純是文字敘寫效力是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
23401.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
23412.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
效率會一樣所以如果委員如果覺得要放到委員的版本是覺得要放到第三項的部分我們可以來看一下看看文字上 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
23428.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
23442.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
跟委員報告因為我們當初會把這句單獨拆出來是因為第三項因為它裡面有三件事第一個是不得反而規避或拒絕然後委員的版本是它後面還有一個是檢查是不得藉故藏匿兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
23444.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
23471.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
然後還有一件事就是可以不經檢查所以它等於是這個這個項裡面會規範三件事情所以我們是覺得說大概一般在條文續寫的時候同時斷兩個分號的時候一般寫法上面比較少這樣子寫所以我們把中間這一段抽出來但是用意上沒有什麼不一致大概以上說明我可不可以再請教一下就是說現行的做法再窄本來就不約房了是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
23472.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
23496.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
本來就不約訪了,第一個現行就是不約訪第二個,到宅是保母去家長家托育所以基本上還是約訪嘛因為如果要處理到宅的話那是家長的家那你去檢查家長的家,突襲這樣的,這是不同的場域,不同的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
23497.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
23509.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
因為現在如果是保母家本來就不約房了如果你是在小孩子自己的家裡面去替家長看護小孩的那這是家長的家所以這個是不事先通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
23516.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
23531.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
到家長的家不用事先通知嗎我是說大家可以討論那另外就是說我們認為這個我們本來自己的條文的第15條有講說對居府中心要做評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
23533.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
23560.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
那現在大家有一點共識就是說我們這個已經不是一個委託的關係不是純粹的委託他做什麼他基本上是准公權力的執行的狀況那如果是要成為委託行使公權力的話那就必須要有一些具體的管理的方法要入法所以我們的第15條或者是說你們要放在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
23562.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
23579.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
你們講委託公權力的行使的話那這個管理的方式要不要放進來那管理的方式要定到哪一個強度要法律明文規定到哪裡因為你要讓他委託公權力也需要法律保留原則啊否則他 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
23580.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
23601.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
憑什麼可以執行公權力他要執行公權力必須法律明文規定他可以委託他去代為執行公權力要有要符合法律保留原則啦也必須要寫進來啊不是你講了說啊我們要委託他去執行公權力不是講的要定下來好請林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
23606.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
23628.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
我要附和剛才蘇芬委員提到上次社家署就一直在提到說未來會賦予居托中心公權利益我不知道你到底要怎麼賦予而且現在法院上其實有很多模糊地帶所以後來第一線的人都跟我反映說很多保姆跟家長會不斷質疑居托中心你是否真的有權 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
23630.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
23657.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
全縣來祭典嗎你的縣旗改善甚至參與裁罰這件事情往往要祭典的時候就會被質疑那在法條上也只有寫說你們是被政府委託我不知道說未來你講的公權力到底不是用委託那到底又是可是你聘的是外部的人那這些外部的人都是有母機構那他在管理上你真的可以確保每一個人的品質嗎否則過去不會發生說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
23657.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
23673.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
居托中心的人評估這保姆我把他打考核的時候我打優等結果下一刻他可能就是兒虐小孩被爆出來所以也就是說是不是可以讓我們很清楚否則的話我不知道你現在一直在跟我們講說未來我會賦予所謂公權令可是任何的條文裡邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
23675.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
23695.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
看不出來你怎麼未來去管理這些單位甚至管理到人這個人是不是跟你齊心一致知道你的準則標準都能夠控制我沒有記錯大家是不是有78個我們的居福中心全國那這個78個居福中心裡邊10個人就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
23695.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
23723.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
那有700多個人 你們可以控制到一致的準則性嗎光你們過去在安全環境結合40項大家的準則就已經講得非常清楚40項都還是不太清楚每一個人去看保母家就已經事實上各自有各自的想法所以可不可以也解釋一下 否則的話現在用這一點來擋說那因為不要平線不要什麼 OK可是重點是可不可以講清楚那個你要賦予拘托中心的公務權利怎麼賦予 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
23724.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
23740.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
沒有任何一條法規有講得更清楚以上我這邊也請問一下就是說你事實上第十一條之前的前一條你也是在針對那個你要要求主管機關自行或委託專業機構團體協助對居家托育服務中心進行監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
23746.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
23765.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
檢查及輔導那剛剛署長又說事實上居家退婦中心你們未來會視為是公權力的一部分等於是跟你們一起來執行這樣的事項我覺得在你們的語意跟邏輯上面如果看前一條他還是是由專業機構團體協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
23767.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
23786.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
來監督檢查及輔導你們只是沒有寫到評鑑就是你們那個概念還是就是有另外一層來監督這一個居托中心但是剛剛問到評鑑的時候你們又說這個是他將來是公權的一部分所以就不走評鑑這一套那到底你們對於他的定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
23787.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
23790.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
真正的定位是什麼的確這樣聽起來有點模糊那他會強度會強到比如說像113你的兒保專線你是透過一個契約委託然後去評選找到非常專業團體來跟你共同合作執行這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
23804.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
23824.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
還是跟現在其實並沒有什麼差別我覺得這一塊從上次的討論到現在一直都還有模糊的空間可不可以再更完整的就是說明然後去這個拘托中心它的定位然後如果還有模糊模糊的地方是不是應該在法條上面也可以再寫得更清晰好不好以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
23825.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
23841.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
我想補充一下因為您剛有說您會去做一個評分表然後對於分數沒有達到的地方進行輔導然後請他們要做提升可是這樣子對家長而言非常不放心會根本不知道你們這個評分表的 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
23844.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
23872.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
這個所有的這些保姆的差別品質的差距到底在哪裡然後你們你剛說如果他沒有到達的話你們會再去輔導然後會去考核我們也不知道後來這個居家托育人員他對於你們進行的輔導是不是有在時間內達成或者是他有連續多次都沒有辦法達成那這個表格更是只有你們知道的話就就 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
23873.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
23900.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
當然你覺得你沒有辦法做到像評鑑強度這麼高的可是至少要讓我們可以分得出他的差異性好 請王振旭委員再到時候請署長一併答覆啦齁在接下來那個連署委員針對這一條提醒各位這一條已經40分鐘了這是第一條我沒有催各位 只是讓大家知道這個狀況因為我們今天初期非常踴躍 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
23901.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
23921.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
而且我們委員會已經沒有位置可以再提供給委員做了好謝謝報告主席我是第一次針對第11條發言我知道我當然清楚我不是提醒你提醒大家謝謝抱歉不要誤會這樣的條例以後看起來第11條其實針對對象是托育專業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
23924.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
23952.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
針對人員在做規範而不是針對於托嬰中心在做規範所以可能這邊到時候也要麻煩再說明清楚到底我們評鑑的話那這個評鑑的對象是中心呢還是人員的部分也要一起納進來的同時需要特別又在第11條做規範因為剛剛其實有一些討論評鑑是非常重要那如果在其他地方已經有針對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
23954.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
23973.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
托育服務中心相關的已經有相關的一些評鑑的辦法或者是非常嚴謹的處理模式的話那我們第十一條是不是還要把評鑑納進來可能也麻煩這邊再做一些說明以上謝謝 王委員再提醒大家這一條開鑽名義就是托育專業人員的資格是在認定這一個範疇接下來 剛剛是林淑媛 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
23982.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
23989.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
雖然這一條講的是推專業人員的資格應該怎麼這樣管理但是因為這個居托中心要協助我們的公權力要去管理啊所以我們托盟的版本就是在第15條在第15條就是說你必須要委託他要賦予他公權力然後這個居托中心也必須要評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
24006.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
24012.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
因為現在的狀況就是說遇到保姆的家人會主張嘛上次審查的時候我就說了包括這個到他托育場所可能是客廳嘛那你到客廳以外去看他的廚房看他的房間連保姆家他們保姆的家人有時候都會主張居托的房源無故入侵住宅所以必須要有法源依據嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
24031.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
24058.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
那賦予權力和管理居托中心就是一樣你說居托中心你憑什麼來執行需要具有公權力才能執行的工作你必須法律定出來授權給他他才有這個法源的依據然後他才能那個名正言順的去幫你去執行公權力啊那在這種狀況如果你要把它變成是準公權力的執行代理執行的機構的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
24059.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
24080.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
那你也必須要對他有管理的制度啊那當然也要討論啊所以我們托盟的版本就是說第15條是討論評鑑然後賦予他的權利的法源依據然後第16條再來談這個托育的專業人員怎麼管理所以在這種狀況這個都是配套啦我的意思是說應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
24082.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
24102.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
我一直講需要符合法律保留原則才能夠授權給拘托中心去做這樣的事這樣子那如果他有這個要執行公權利的這個權利了那他本身就要必須要配套來管理他否則這也是很危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
24108.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
24113.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
好 請我第一次講是 老師請 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
24115.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
24136.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
我Echo一下這個淑芬委員就是她講的剛剛有提到的那個第15條我想那個居家托育服務中心的這個監督輔導跟評鑑那因為我們是放在這個20我的版本是放在這個26條是跟這個托育機構所提出的這個監督的機制要就是透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
24137.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
24151.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
那這個部分其實不管是居托或者是托育機構其實都應該要有一個比較一致性的一個標準的方向去推進才會有一個比較完整可以信賴的這個托育的安全網以上好請蘇洋再回應好不好 回應完之後我們就處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
24159.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
24185.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
跟各位委員報告這個如同一開始跟各位前次會議跟這次一開始跟各位委員報告我們這次在Auto Bar裡面對於居托中心的定位確實和現行的狀況是有一些不同的所以這也是為什麼我們會在草案第11條裡面第二項一開始就是說直轄市縣市旅館可以自行或委託 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
24186.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
24214.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
居家托育服務中心來辦理居家托育服務人員之...這個在從行政程序法的規定的角度來看的時候這也就是在這一句話裡面因為它可以做相關的委託它符合行政程序法第16條有關公權力委託的一個基本的法源的要求至於在委託的時候當然從行政法學上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
24215.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
24232.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
這個委託室友的時候他是需要後面有一個委託的契約把實際上委託的事項的內容去做一個比較細部的規範和明定那這個每一個縣市可能會依照自己的量有可能會在這個地方自治跟地方特色的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
24233.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
24257.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
委託的事項內容可能會稍微會有一點點的不太一樣那這個地方我們就保留了給地方政府自己來運作的一些因地制宜的空間那當然在管理上面因為這個有這樣的一個法源所以地方政府對於居託中心當然就要這個是等於是幫地方政府來執行公權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
24258.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
24279.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
他當然就要進到更深的一個監督管理的內容跟職務因為這個未來在法學上面如果這個居托中心在執行職務有有這個有故意過是侵害到人民的權利義務的話那這個實際上政府是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
24280.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
24305.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
這個直轄市縣政府是有相關責任的所以在這邊來講在現行其他的法令裡面大概都已經有一套比較完整的規範那委員比較關心的在這邊來說是不是對於未來居托中心細部的一些檢查等等的內容要做相關的處理那這個由於這次在調整的確實幅度的範圍比較大那而且那個也是等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
24306.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
24321.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
類似上下級機關中間的監督已經有點這樣的性質所以我們是覺得可以不一定需要在法律裡面再去做這樣的一個規範那評鑑的部分也是因為由於他是類似上下級有點類似上下級中間的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
24322.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
24338.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
所以以往大概也這個也比較沒有再去額外去做評鑑的動作那先就居托中心做這樣的一個說明那第二個就是剛才陳委員有再次提到就是對於居家保母的部分這個檢查的部分目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
24340.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
24362.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
現行居托中心就已經有在有協助在做居家保姆的這樣一個檢查或者是查核平核的動作那他也有一個完整的這樣查核或者平核的一個表現那這樣一個表現其實目前現在是搭配了我們行政部門對於居家保姆他如果平核達到一定的水準的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
24363.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
24377.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
政府對於居家保母還有一定的額外的一個居家保母的一個補助的動作那這兩個部分是連動在一起的所以那當然由於考慮到這是一個行政比較偏向行政檢查的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
24378.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
24400.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
那數量上的關係這個真的要去做評鑑的操作確實在行政的執行程度上面是有一些摯愛的地方所以也跟委員做一個報告那我未來在這樣的平和的一些基本的表現平和的一些要求的事項的部分那我們會在這個配合法律修正過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
24401.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
24411.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
那我們也會有一個比較完整的一個平和的文件那未來這些平和的這個基本的表現行政機關要去查核的事項我們也都可以公開讓民眾能夠有一個查閱以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
24420.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
24444.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
這個講法有一部分我不是很認同就是說你們認為居樂中心跟你們的從屬關係所以覺得本來你們就可以管理他們可是我們非要放到法律上條文上看得非放進來不可的原因是因為我們必須法律明文規定政府的責任是什麼然後那個居樂中心的責任是什麼所以我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
24445.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
24461.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
第15條就請各位委員看一下就是說我們這裡面就是說民定政府其實對居住中心你必須監督必須檢查必須輔導那評鑑要不要可以另外再討論那你這個結果也應該公告給大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
24461.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
24474.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
那居留中心的義務是什麼 你必須要接受這一些不得規避 而且要提供然後呢 這些程序要怎麼進行 進行的程序和辦法的話就交給你們去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
24476.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
24499.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
法律明文規定你有責任你有權利你有責任要管理居托中心我們並不想要你在這裡口頭陳述說我們自然會管理你自然會不會管理我們不知道我們也不相信但是如果法律上條文上面明定了我們就自然相信有制度有條文克責於政府的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
24499.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
24517.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
然後要求付權給你去管理居多中心而居多中心也有義務要配合這個才叫做制度而我不相信你們真的講說我們有上下從屬關係了所以自然我們就會管理我們不相信因為它本來就不是政府組織的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
24518.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
24530.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
它是非正式的關係啊所以必須符合法律保留原則而且一定要明定上去我是希望各位支持各位委員支持這樣子才能夠明確全責相符那各位針對第11條那條文就在我們的螢幕上有這樣修正是不是還有什麼地方要再處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
24548.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
24561.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
現在又跳到15條我知道 林委員也是15條 知道喔抱歉 我們的是第15條 但是行政院版可能是沒有的對啊行政院版沒有你是15跟16吧對 15 16對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
24565.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
24591.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
現在行政院16條的修正沒有關係啦 好沒有關係這個是不是請公部門就是針對林委員的15、16跟院版還有其他委員的第11條是不是再做一個調整我們先保留好不好調整完文字之後再給大家看嘛主席就是說他要委託公權力那個他算是有進去嘛但是要管理要負起管理的責任他沒有上去喔 對喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
24592.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
24617.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
對啦 就看他能不能再出一個文字出來 讓你們做參考那再加什麼我要講的是 因為剛才有在 本來在11條就有列一個我覺得剛剛淑芬講的我覺得還是要去處理 剛剛就說檢查時 得不經事先通知這件事情要解決為什麼我覺得要解決是說 你們現在列上去 未來如果倒載 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
24618.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
24641.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
你真的要去檢查家長 我相信應該很大的民怨而且到宅跟在宅已經消長了也就是說到宅的越來越多 在宅的已經在下降的時候未來要寫在法條裡面 真的要斟酌除非你要分裂 否則的話到宅的話你根本也沒有必要是說家長就在家 或是阿公阿嬤在家然後配合有保母在那裡然後在宅的確覺得要監督 那是保母家 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
24642.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
24665.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
可是你倒宅 可是你一寫下去全部都要檢查那是不是到時候引起敏銳而且有沒有必要我認為倒宅真的沒有必要而且倒宅現在納管的那個程度強度本來就沒有高到這樣 也不贊成連環評事實項都幾乎都很難達到更何況要要求說我平常就是不預警我就去檢查你家我覺得這真的會有問題所以你們如果現在要寫這個我就不太贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
24668.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
24674.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
我講一下剛剛淑芙恩講的第15條那我想的就是剛剛有特別講到我們要怎麼樣有一個透明的資訊可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
24688.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
24708.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
可以得到就是監督之後的一個結果那我是放在那個第26條的部分就是說我們在有這個結果之後要怎麼樣可以在不管是地方政府也好或者是這個托育的這個中心或者是機構他們在整個所有的評鑑完之後然後監督完之後怎麼樣去揭露他們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
24709.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
24728.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
整個所有的評鑑的一個結果就是讓大家可以知道讓更多的家長可以安心那我覺得那個揭露的部分是不是也應該可以放上去或者是就是因為我的版本比較後面可能先討論不到但是我的意思是說我是放在26條其實也呼應一下這個署分的第15條這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
24731.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
24750.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
總委員,揭露部分看要不要放進去?我的這個部分最主要目標是為了在宅的部分所以我覺得是看怎麼樣去列出我們可以針對在宅的部分去做一些不預約方式的部分在宅的部分?來,社長請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
24752.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
24775.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
我們這樣啦 我覺得那個委員的concern我覺得很正確 你要去人家那樣檢查真的會引起民怨 所以我們大概就是落實在宅的部分 到宅就不要啦 好不好這第一點 第二點剛才那個蘇分委員剛才有講那個就是那個居多管理的部分 來 那個署長你 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
24780.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
24795.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
林淑媛委員的第15條因為上一次有大概先交換過一件原則是保留那我們對於這個條文我們有一個建議的文字就是我們會建議如果說這個部分要訂的話是不是有可能就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
24796.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
24817.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
把評鑑的部分拿掉那在參採林委員的文字的這個架構底下那也就是第一項一直下來到對居家托育服務中心進行監督檢查及輔導然後就據點因為把後面的評鑑拿掉公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
24824.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
24840.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
因為它是監督和檢查所以這個部分一般大概就不會額外再去做公布一般的例行性檢查比較不會去做公布那第二項的文字大概也是用同樣的方式那就是第二項的最後一句 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
24844.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
24854.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
就是居家居家托育服務中心對前項之監督檢查及輔導不得規避論號妨礙或拒絕大概到這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
24869.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
24897.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
第三項第三項的話我們是因為主要是等於上下級中間的監督管理我們本來是我們確實是比較傾向於是不是有可能不要訂定那如果一定要訂的話是不是有可能就是把這個裡面評鑑跟負評這幾個字我們就把它刪除掉就不納進來是不是可能這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
24898.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
24925.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
我們第三項的狀況是希望說監督檢查輔導這些輔導事項等等全部如果都委由地方去處理恐怕會有標準不一的問題比如說有一些縣市遇到高風險家庭或有兒少權法相關的事件比如說有淤傷等等需要請示這個地方主管機關那居住中心不得自行決定是否通報地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
24925.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
24954.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
主管機關搞不好有時候覺得說 啊 居托服務中心沒買有的認為說全部都要所以各縣市對居托中心的督導換考核要求標準如果不一致的話它本身就是現在居托服務中心的最大的問題現行裡面就最大的問題有的地方就是故意 我也可以說故意掩蓋啊 隱瞞啊所以他就覺得 啊 居托服務中心沒買不要通報有的人說一定要通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
24956.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
24981.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
我們第三項要堅持要留著而且希望中央要定期這個有關於居家托育服務中心的監督檢查輔導或是其他應遵循的事項的辦法其實我們應該要扛起來而且要全國標準都一致不要說在某個縣市的小朋友他偶親就是沒問題某個縣市的小朋友偶親就是大問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
24982.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
25001.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
不要這樣子所以有些地方政府就是押案或者是為了隱瞞的話為了讓數字美化的話可能會阻止了這些通報然後然後其實標準會變得不一樣所以我們才說其實中央應該扛起全國一致的標準那也不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
25002.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
25019.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
不要讓地方政府為了隱瞞或是美化數字或是押案而不一樣的管理方法主席非常感謝蘇分委的關心我講兩個重點第一我們剛剛已經講到就是說未來居住中心我們就是行政法上面的代替國家行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
25020.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
25038.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
他們就是一個delegation 就是一個委託關係這個委託關係裡面 事實上有一個上下指揮監督事實上在我們這個很多政府機關裡面也都是這樣這並不是法規命令 我們用行政命令事實上就可以來處理這是第一點另外第二點 您剛剛我也完全同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
25038.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
25060.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
除非我們剛剛所說的這些相關的更進一步的一些的一些監管可是這裡面因為各地方政府我必須要講我的地方太過這裡面會裡面簽上整個教育人員整個這些居住人員他們的教育這個裡面我們是不是可以用一個要點的方式來訂定這樣就是說一方面有一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
25062.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
25071.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
你講的訂定不是問題,是誰要訂?你的要點是全國統一一致,你們訂定而不是交給地方政府自行訂定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
25075.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
25102.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
可以啦我們來定對啦對所以我們的第三項你要全部都保留第三項我們會跟委員報告就是說我們因為他是上下級等於是中央機關對地方機關的監督的部分大概我們用行政的要點或者是處理的原則那這個部分大概就比較不用特別再去這種授權的方式去定辦法這個部分是不是可以有這樣的空間我有點聽不懂因為我們現在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
25104.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
25110.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
居托中心跟政府上下關係的上其實是指地方政府因為整個執行都是地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
25112.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
25134.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
居多中心跟政府是地方政府的上下關係那你們認為說阿法規命令就可以了用什麼都沒關係啦但我們要是說所有的標準要一致不要寬延不一不要授權給地方政府自行去訂出全國不一致的有落差的這個管理要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
25135.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
25147.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
對 那所以中央要扛起這個法規上的這個責任而已我們就只是要求你扛起法規上的責任當然執行面還有這個整個實務面都是地方政府要去處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
25150.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
25169.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
報告委員我們現在目前這樣我完全了解那個委員的意思我們現在目前這些那個standard應該全國一致這個我們同意我們用定要點的方式啦那所以要採取我們的第三項但是現在問題是說如果說你現在用在這個法律裡面定辦法的話我報告委員現在就是說會產生一個問題就是說我們這個辦法到時候還要有一些公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
25169.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
25194.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
公告等等那些的一個程序啦還預告等等這些啦所以我意思是說能不能讓我們就用行政命令我們用那個要點的方式來處理這樣一方面又能夠有全國一致不是啦我們是授權給你們去訂定相關的管理辦法你們訂出來就是執法那你們的執法執法就是送到立法院來備查而已不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
25197.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
25222.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
這個就是執法不曉得你們這個它不是一個法律啊你們定出來管理辦法管理要點就是一個行政執法而已啊這個跟我們報告就是我們的想法是說如果這個就是就是管理的部分就是針對地方政府的一個要求的話那以往大概比較多的做法大概都是透過一個譬如說像作業的原則然後管理的要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
25223.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
25252.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
那這一類的話大概在位階上我們把它叫做行政規則那這樣的一個規則的話就可以是不需要在法律裡面單獨像現在第三項單獨還要再去訂一個授權的辦法是可以不用那這樣的一個好處是說它這個第一個是它在訂定的流程因為都是行政部門之間的管理它的流程可以相對來說比較快一點點那如果一旦有地方有反應在執行上需要調整也可以速度也可以比較反應也可以比較快 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
25253.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
25262.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
我們可以接受你用要點的方式可是我們這樣的文字字眼會限縮到你不能使用要點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
25265.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
25290.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
這個就是辦法他就是一定要經過照現在法制作業就是他一定要經過預告你的字眼剛才的字眼是什麼我們會建議這樣如果是可以接受用一個行政上的這樣的行政規則這樣的一個要點或者是處理原則的話不是啊那你在條文上面會怎麼第三項可以不用寫不要寫不行那這樣子好了我們在立法說明欄放上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
25292.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
25310.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
可以 我們配合辦我們配合來修署名如果你認為說我們的第三項放上去它強度稍微高一點可是就是說強度稍微高一點也沒有就是說行政程序稍微多一點行政程序稍微多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
25312.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
25338.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
可是它整部法律的配套的執法很多又不是只有這裡同時啊我認為這也不會構成這個多大的行政上的障礙因為整部法的執法可能有數十個咧這個我補充說明一下剛剛這個衛福部講的我可以理解就是說如果這件事情我們是希望中央政府對地方政府的一些要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
25339.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
25363.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
可以透過要點的方式那它的好處是它的行政彈性是大的就是說地方政府一反映哪邊需要調整修正的時候它都可以不用進立法院就是它的行政權這個才是重點應該是說彈性隨時可以變動所以我要補充讓你知道就是說我們某部分相信衛福部的專業現在要額外訂但是他們要的是一個彈性就是說不用再送立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
25365.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
25389.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
對所以我個人是贊成如果說基於這個行政是更有彈性的原則的話是可以讓他們訂要點然後去施行因為畢竟這件事情也不是新的事情啊就是說我們保姆局府中心的管理已經已經有一個程序如果說我們的第三項那個辦法改成要點直接在法律裡面就講授權他訂定要點就好了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
25391.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
25418.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
其他應遵循事項的要點由中央主管機關定之這樣好不好對不起啊已經快一個鐘頭給各位休息五分鐘然後請署長去跟林委員看這個沒有啦沒關係小事情啦這個小事情因為我們可以同意啦你的八項我們同意但是就是說是要放在立法說明欄稍微寫一下還是說依照我們第三項去改一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
25420.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
25427.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
但我們就希望中央要扛責啦中央要扛責全國標準要一致啦不要寬延喔不一這樣子好 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
25828.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
25843.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
好我們繼續開會書長有先溝通嗎還是怎樣所以有文字了那有公式我們就處理對不對那你是要增設一條還是要放在16條裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
25846.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
25867.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
報告委員我們建議就是是不是有可能因為上一次會議是保留嘛是不是有可能就是直接照15條就是如同剛才跟委員報告的就是我們參照委員先前的版本我們文字稍微簡單的做一點整理以第一項和第二項第一項的部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
25868.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
25892.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
拿掉評鑑兩個字拿掉評鑑然後急要挪到前面一點去因為原來是急評鑑急要挪到前面去所以我直接宣讀一下文字前面都一樣所以是放在第15條就是了對就是前面多增加一條出來那第二項的話也是一樣那我們就是最後一句那個病因提供必要協助就把它拿掉然後評鑑拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
25898.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
25911.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
另外我們在第三項那個意思我們把它在說明欄裡面我們會後我們再做一個整理整理好我們一併再給委員這邊來過目所以你現在第11條還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
25913.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
25939.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
第十 今天在什麼 第十一條還是我們現在在處理第十一條 為什麼一直跟我講第十五條第十一條的部分的話 已經跟張剛才跟張惠寧 張委員報告過了那就是在對啦 他主席講的對啦 因為在行政院架構是第十一條那因為我們是十五條我的版本是十六條十六條對照行政院版本第十一條那我的第十五條要放到哪裡行政院版本的第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
25940.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
25956.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
因為當時是保留所以後面如果再處理的時候如果委員這邊方案可以接受是不是等到回頭的時候這個已經確定了我們不會方案確定到時候再看要塞到哪裡因為這個調適一定會再整理但是怕到時候就忘掉了不會我會幫你記起來這個不會忘記 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
25960.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
25985.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
好啦文字確定了但是現在就看塞在哪裡啦11條的部分我們就建11條月版11條的部分那就是就是如同現在在現在投影有出來的那剛才各位委員有比較擔心的就是對尤其對於這個到宅托育的部分可能會有一些顧慮我們就把這個文字稍微寫清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
25985.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
26007.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
是不是要辦理在宅出托育檢查室得不經事先通知用這樣的文字來做一個處理以上報告這樣可以嗎可以啦當然可以我先講你現在在這邊的確先把到宅跟在宅分開在宅這個又講檢查那請問一下房市輔導的時候要約房嗎還是不約房你這邊只有特別標明檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
26014.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
26039.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
那到底仿式輔導要約訪還不約訪先仿式輔導事實上是不約訪不約訪所以我就說要講就講清楚否則的話你這樣又不清楚那我們只有檢查那檢查又是什麼檢查是什麼意思而且過去事實上居托中心去仿式輔導保姆然後這次有蹦一個字眼叫檢查什麼時候會要檢查我也很想知道因為你有媒合輔導跟監督或檢查那監督或檢查又是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
26044.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
26057.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
我不知道署長知道我的意識所以要不要把它提清楚否則最後這個檢查到底是要做什麼事情這是我第一個問題第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
26058.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
26078.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
我一直在講你們講一直在講公權力我還是沒辦法去理解你的公權力我先問一個最直接的問題如果我今天如果到了保母家如果大廈管理人擋我的話我要拿什麼證件去如果他被通報有不當超收小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
26079.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
26107.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
過去一直以來都是進不去的大家管理條例裡面可能就是阻擋了這樣那這個公權力未來會增加嗎他等於代行社會局的人那以後是有會給社會局的證件讓他們可以進去那邊直接去做查核嗎我也問這第二個問題 以上因為他是受到行使公權力所以將來縣市政府可以提供給這些居托中心的人員一定可以去組織辨識身份的這個檢查證件這個部分是可以做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
26108.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
26127.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
所以這個如果還在發生這個例如說像公寓大廈的這個管理單位拒絕他進入的話那這個部分的話不管是找不管是透過警察或者是甚至直接要去對那個做相關處理那法院會更明確因為他就是行使公權力了 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
26129.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
26151.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
那第二個因為我們現在在條文裡面以前因為它一直是一個類似用政府採購的方式由民間團體來執行的方案所以在文字上對外行使在操作的時候我們都不能夠去使用有帶有公權力字眼的性質的字眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
26152.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
26180.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
所以以往我們都會用所謂的仿視那實質上現在這些我們居托中心同仁在操作的內容其實如果是仿視那他就是看一看但是現在我們的同仁實際上都已經做到去看他是不是有符合地方政府的要求所以他實質的內涵已經接近檢查的性質所以以往在做的時候他是某個角度是已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
26181.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
26201.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
這個稍微已經碰到在檢查的邊邊上所以現在我們的文字修正完以後那我們的這些居托中心的同仁進去他就是名正言順的檢查就是名正言順檢查他就是公權力所以以後輔導就是可以要約訪嗎然後檢查就不約訪要先理清現在訪視輔導是不約訪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
26204.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
26229.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
所以你這邊還是有字眼是輔導所以我要釐清說你這邊的所謂的登記管理沒合碼沒有太大問題有輔導這個就是掛1漏1啦就是應該是掛1漏1啦因為你這裡只點出檢查時才不用經事先通知那麼你的那個輔導監督就要事先通知了嗎所以未來訪視檢查這兩個字是取代現在訪視輔導嗎我先確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
26235.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
26256.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
之所以現在的訪視會用不先約定其實本質就是希望能夠看到實際的狀態所以目的上明為訪視實質上已經帶有檢查的味道不然這個他訪視的過程他完全看不到實際的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
26257.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
26281.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
那這一次修正就是讓這個將來我們居托中心的同仁名正言順的可以進去看可以不用這個事先約訪就進去看那至於這個未來的輔導那當然因為不帶有公權利性質在單純的輔導的時候不帶有公權利性質也沒有檢查的意味那原則上就是通知再進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
26283.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
26305.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
就是通知再進去因為如果是公權力的部分他才會有面臨說我要知道實際狀況甚至有沒有違反規定那這才會有不事先約定的才會有這樣的需求市長你要講清楚否則未來連頻率現在本來一年因為凱凱案改成六立法已經是非常的單薄 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
26306.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
26328.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
未來你的房事輔導不帶有檢查的意味然後另外才又檢查那會產生什麼問題你要先想清楚因為第一年才要六例房第二年才兩例房一年我才看他兩次我要知道他到底有沒有對兒女那你現在房事輔導又說要約房過去為什麼改成不約房就是一百零四年的時候兒女很多時候後來去改成這樣子那你現在又說那我要約房 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
26330.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
26359.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
原來一年兩次訪視輔導兩次就已經非常單薄了然後你現在要用約訪又要改回去約訪然後檢查又說不約訪這不是本末倒置嗎各位委員包括我們不是本末倒置因為將來如果要檢查那兩次就是檢查那你剛剛又在講訪視輔導又是什麼如果額外有訪視額外有輔導的需求他就是先約定所以以後未來過去的訪視輔導都改成檢查原則上他就是檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
26362.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
26380.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
我想第11條的重點我再跟大家確定一下11條的重點理論上是針對於人員相關的規範所以我會建議說目前增加這個辦理在宅托育檢查室的不經事件通過這個我建議把它刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
26381.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
26410.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
那針對這部分的需求我們本來在其他的細則就會訂到的話事實上是可以不用在這邊呈現是我會說就不要在這個地方放這個字眼對因為這個因為將來一定會有相關的這些輔導措施也要各方面都好可是都有其他的數的那種必須要執行的內容嘛所以在第11條我覺得放在這個地方反而是造成困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
26411.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
26437.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
來 好啦 這個本來沒事情的一位同僚自己的課程好啦 鄭天才委員好 你講完我們就 你就下結論了我只是文字的建議給那個衛福部文字的建議因為第十一條 這個第一項符合第幾條規定 即托役專業人員資格者 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
26438.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
26457.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
因怎么怎么怎么好这个像直辖市县市主管机关办理登记办理登记然后这个最后一项最后一项第一项居家托育人员之登记这个就限收在居家托育人员之登记因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
26459.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
26484.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
托育专业人员是包含居家托育人员啊啊所以我的建议就是是不是如果按照你后面不改的话那是不是就是指这个第一项的部分向直辖市县市主管机关办理居家托育人员登记如果是是这个意思的话 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
26486.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
26506.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
是不是這個第一項這部分像直轄市縣市主管機關辦理居家托育人員登記這樣的話你這個最後一項才會寫第一項居家服務人員之登記這是這是第一個部分那因為這個最後一項的登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
26508.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
26523.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
这个办法授权定的办法是包含登记收托人数辅导管理废纸登记的其他遵行事项的办理你们再参考一下是不是也包含了那个第二项的部分呢还是怎么样给你们参考 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
26526.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
26533.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
好 那我現在就實務面 有人要我問一下就是說如果保姆違規了 那到時候單位被要求要改善嘛那到時候有沒有改善要來看嘛那改善也是不約訪的那如果說我們在未來 你說這個訪視以前的訪視現在都等於檢查那確認改善是否完成是屬於檢查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
26556.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
26581.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
那包含在一年兩次的檢查裡面嗎所以就是說我才會講說你會不會掛一漏萬那另外不要明定是不是比較不會得出那麼多的掛一漏萬的問題那我自己再提出一個問題就是說雖然這裡管理的是刻意托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
26582.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
26603.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
人員的這個全義務啦 被檢查被監督還有接受這個 歸管的相當的義務但是呢 這裡第三項我們大家建議的這個條文第三項裡面講到就是林月琴委員還有其他委員 集團講到說通常到那個公寓大廈管理條例的規定裡面 他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
26605.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
26618.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
可能會依據公寓大廈管理條例而不讓我們進去而不是依照我們的法律所以我們這個法律跟公寓大廈管理條例兩個競合之間我們需不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
26620.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
26644.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
雖然在立法體力上好像怪怪的因為這裡管理的是多餘人員可是如果我們要訪視要檢查要監督會碰觸到公寓大廈管理條例我們要不要設一個在裡面講一個得或是說得排除或是應排除就是這些去訪視的時候應排除公 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
26645.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
26673.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
公寓大廈管理條例的第幾條的管理適用這樣子應該明訂上去那這樣子的話一清二楚都不要在那邊講有的有的沒的而托法明文規定我們要去檢查要去訪視排除公寓大廈管理條例的第幾條的適用直接就可以進去啊這樣不就一翻兩瞪眼更清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
26674.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
26697.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
等一下再回應 等一下來黃修昌委員一併 想完之後再一併回應回應之後我們就處理了好不好謝謝我記那個淑芬委員的我問一下就是說我們去做訪視或者是檢查它的頻率有幾次這個是中央政府會知道或地方政府或者是居托中心會知道都會知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
26701.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
26728.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
目前有統一的規定有統一的規定那它有一個平台就是說譬如說我居托中心可能要去訪視那也許上一次訪視跟這一次訪視可能距離也許距離很近譬如說我可能這個月裡面有兩次訪視也許是這樣子那距離下一次的訪視或者是檢查可能會隔了好幾個月會不會有這樣的一個落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
26729.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
26747.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
那這個訪視的這個頻率或時間是誰才會知道是中央政府會知道或地方政府或者是居托中心那他可能會去做一個調整就是說我這個頻率要多久一次才不會就是說我這一次的檢查跟下一次的檢查也許會隔很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
26752.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
26767.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
公文報告有關於現行的訪視頻率的部分我們都是根據個案的狀況就是我們有一個原則要求說一年要去多少次就是一年要去多少次 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
26767.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
26790.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
所以我們並沒有進一步規定說例如說假如一年去兩次什麼上半年去一次下半年我們沒有寫到這麼細確實沒有寫到這麼細但是執行面的時候其實一般縣市政府他在做人員工作安排的時候一般來說不太我們比較少聽到說會不會有很密集就去兩次的這種我們比較少聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
26793.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
26818.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
但是他在訪視的過程中的時候因為訪視的記錄他都還是要登到系統裡面來我們如果真的有需要我們可以再從後台的情況我們來做一些檢視看看是不是縣市有一些個別的居托的中心他在訪視頻率的安排上面有很極端的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
26819.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
26846.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
這邊我們是可以來嘗試的來做一些分析另外也跟委員做一個報告就是剛才淑芬委員這邊有提到就是有關於這個跟公寓大廈管理條例中間的一些競合的問題我們剛才有討論一下如果有需要的話我們會建議或許是不是在第三項的文字上面可能我們再做一點點調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
26848.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
26874.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
我們把這個可能會面臨到公寓大廈的這種狀況我們把它框進來我們同仁剛剛把建議的文字先做了嘗試做一個調整也請購物員來看一下第三項我們會講的是說房市它有沒有改善啊 也算檢查啊是 它算檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
26876.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
26884.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
那未來在這一類如果說是屬於改善的那個就我們建議把那個拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
26885.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
26907.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
不要在第二項第二項的後邊這個我們就署長我順著秀芳委員的講你剛剛的回覆有的真的不是目前的現況因為有的縣市是對一年兩次立訪可是他新收多代替立訪有時候代替立訪之後可能是明年再訪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
26907.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
26930.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
而且這可能集中在剛好這一個月因為我先立訪完後來很快又新收託他就取代掉那我今年兩次所以你的很多東西事實上是在過去不明確的所以我會建議剛剛淑芬的這15條裡面除非你未來訂定的要點事實上是非常清楚否則以後一定延伸很多問題因為各縣市的執行有的新收託訪是沒有去取代掉立訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
26931.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
26939.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
可有的是取代掉地方最後呢隔了大半年都沒去明年再去明年搞不好有時候我們曾經評鑑的時候就看過有七八個月之後才去 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
26941.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
26967.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
甚至有一年多才去的為什麼過去一年一例訪的時候就一年多才去的那就會是有問題因為以前沒有這樣規定甚至一年四例訪還要拖個大半年才去第一年本來就是要平均可是沒有所以你們要確定清楚是說要在蘇芬剛剛講的15條裡面去把這些東西加清楚才不會說你代行公權力可是執行上又讓各縣市政府自己做然後發生事情的時候又怪到中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
26968.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
26975.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
那我覺得這不太妥適啦好 我再講一個就是要點訂定的時候不能夠只邀集地方政府的人員應該要對民間關心這些議題的民間團體要一起邀請然後一起討論啦OK |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
26984.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
26989.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
所以現在是處理11條好不好所以有關剛才在11條的部分剛才有提到跟第三項跟公寓大廈管理條例中間的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
26999.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
27019.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
我們簡單的先討論了一下我們把文字稍微再重新處理一下原來的居家托育人員這幾個字我們挪到後面來就是我們把它修正成直轄市縣市主管機關對於居家托育人員之監督及檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
27022.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
27048.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
鬥點加一個字任何人不得規避妨礙或拒絕那後面的跟我們原來的建議文字是一致的那這樣子的話就是這個規範的對象就不只是居家托育人員那這個要處理到像公寓大廈管理條例沒有啦你這樣講我們這裡是要法律明文規定排除公寓大廈管理條例的一些規約裡面的規範然後排除他的適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
27049.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
27074.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
所以才有法源依據說任何人不得規避不得妨礙不得拒絕因為大家很具體實務上的經驗就是公寓大廈管理條例那現在這樣寫完以後就是托育服務法的條文和公寓公寓大廈管理條例的條文他簡單說就是病情適用沒有誰排斥誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
27075.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
27089.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
沒有啦 人家他公益大廈管理條例可以主張我們的規約是這個棟大樓的安全管理的最高原則現在如果你 我就是說你為什麼抗拒寫進去寫進去就一翻兩瞪眼了 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
27092.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
27107.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
我們很多法律都說我排除國有財產法的適用我排除什麼的這個關稅什麼條例的適用人家很多法律都是調供這樣讓我們的位階更高一階零價到這個供應代價管理條例之上啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
27108.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
27134.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
我們這個特別法一定要到公益官司可以排除他的管理的啊好啦 沒關係請行政機關再想一下好不好可以叫法務部的人回答一下那我們這一條先保留可以讓法務部的人講一下啦沒關係啦已經一個多鐘頭了啦好不好因為不是我講的而已當然不是只有你講的啦我覺得要進行處理嘛那我處理現在可以保留嘛對不對我們進行第12條法務部都沒有講過來第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
27145.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
27148.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
12條事實上大家都一樣,只有林愛琼也是11條,林淑媛也是17條,我們並肯討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
27153.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
27179.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
行政版12條的部分那跟其他各委員的版本文字大體上都還相近那主要是針對規範就是未來居家土地人員的部分他的服務證書要能夠做相關的懸掛那大體上各委員的條文內容實質的內涵大概是相近的我們建議是不是可以依照行政版的條文來做通過 以上來 各位委員表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
27182.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
27196.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
好沒有意見那這條是不是就照原本版本通過好謝謝那接下來我們處理第13條那13條大致上都一樣只有委員林業請12條然後這個民俗院也是第18條好然後還有修正動議有 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
27208.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
27222.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
李業勤委員的修正動議還有王振旭委員的修正動議跟陳雅琳委員的修正動議是第四還有這個林書偉的修正動議第六各位看一下我們邊緣來討論那請行政機關來做說明各位委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
27226.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
27246.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
那13條的部分各委員的版本那除了有一些版本跟行政院大體相同之外那主要像林瑞琴委員和林淑昆委員的版本大概都有考慮到未來是不是要去有關在訂定這個收費的時候是不是能夠有這個要考量的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
27247.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
27266.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
那以及在討論這樣訂定收費的時候訂定這個收費的機制的部分是不是要規定的更明確那所以我們現在有一個建議的有一個建議的調整的一個建議那剛才有提供給委員那也麻煩大家可以參與我們現在把它投影在螢幕上 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
27267.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
27284.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
那大致上就是第一項的部分就是要中央要去訂一個收費和退費訂定的調整的原則而且呢第二項就是這個在收費的部分的訂這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
27285.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
27313.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
收退費基準的調整原則的時候要定期召集縣市主管機關以及專家民間團體然後要考慮到那全國各地的一些物價指數家庭支配所的托育人員勞動條件等相關因素來做討論那這樣的一個原則出來之後那具體的各縣市的收費還是由地方政府那依照這樣的原則來去做公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
27314.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
27339.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
那為了要能夠適當的適時的去反映那這個收費的基準的話那增訂了第四項的部分這個收退費的基準是每兩年要做一次檢討跟調整那這次這個條文我們大概重新再做了一個調整那請各位參考好 各位看這個一樣是這裡也有 螢幕也有有沒有什麼意見要表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
27343.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
27347.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
喂 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
27362.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
27378.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
這個方向基本上都朝向我們想推的方向就是說中央對於訂定收費和退費的原則扛起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
27381.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
27401.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
那基本上讓地方政府自行也負起這個責任最後讓他們自己定那原因是地方政府要不要參採這個中央的這些原則最後有沒有尊重這個議會也要看他們地方的議會的監督的機制也都還在那 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
27405.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
27431.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
所以我一直覺得說中央應該是本來要訂出收費標準但中央認為說可能會有點困難那還是讓地方自己訂那我想說地方議會還是會可以問責的所以就想說OK 我們是可以的但是現在這個問題可能會產生在哪裡它會產生在因為我們第七條我們第七條通過 有通過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
27432.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
27444.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
我們也有一個托育會審議會還是什麼的 中央諮詢會還有諮詢會那第七條的中央主管機關的審議機制或者是這個中央的諮詢會到時候我們訂這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
27461.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
27464.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
是要審議會還是諮詢會去處理第七條保留嘛但是因為第七條有有審議會有諮詢會中央托育諮詢會那跟這一條的關係所以我們是這一條的規定是要交給中央托育諮詢會去訂定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
27490.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
27516.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
還是什麼還是要另外再組一個什麼的所以你還是要用中央諮詢會去訂定這一個原則那這一個原則的訂定的話再去邀集這些團體那參考這一些指標第七條的會跟這一條的會是同一個會嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
27522.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
27530.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
他是同一個如果是同一個的話你的這樣子的寫法這樣感覺是另外再找文字上可能要修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
27536.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
27561.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
簡單來講 類似像德國的健保一樣就是中央會有一個會有一個由這個付費者跟這個服務提供者 他們提出一個中央的標準中央標準提出來之後 比如今年大概就是我服務服務標準或者那些 我只是中央聯邦訂標準而已訂完之後 然後就交給各幫自己下去執行所以剛剛所說的這個中央諮詢會 就是負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
27566.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
27590.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
這個沒有問題現在我覺得隨便委員提的因為我們過頭來看第七條你現在跟這一條會不會變成事實上是兩個不是同一個那如果你要放在第七條的話應該把這些要件放在第七條說這個委員會要做的事情涵蓋這個內容否則的話會不會變兩個好像是不一樣的東西就是文字上看起來好像怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
27591.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
27605.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
跟委員報告我們現在的想法是說在第13條的這個部分我們去找大家來去做過討論完之後那這是一個原則那這樣的一個原則跟大原則之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
27606.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
27621.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
原則上因為現在在第七條是有一個中央的諮詢會所以它等於是有點像是我在一個工作層級去把一個架構提出來之後再放到諮詢會去做最後的一個拍板因為這個諮詢會裡面的任務是比較多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
27623.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
27644.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
所以很細節技術性的東西我們會傾向於我們初步的想法是就擺在第13條就先用一個比較工作比較技術面層次的部分先把這個草案先出來當然最後流程還是會流程還是會經過在第7條的這個諮詢會然後討論過之後然後提供給地方政府來做後續的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
27650.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
27673.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
地方政府有要求地方政府要有一個諮詢會嗎有審議會嗎我們當初第7條到底是保留嗎那也沒有確定嘛那第7條好像當時我們講到說中央要有一個諮詢會地方要有一個審議會因為要訂出那個收費的標準要有一個審議會嘛那我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
27675.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
27697.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
第七條是第一項可能跟這個比較重疊比較高度相關你的條文寫的因為13條這樣寫好像好像就不是同一件事沒有文字上可能還要再修正我的意思是說我們現在懂得這個意思了中央願意扛起這一個原則這一個訂出這一個調整的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
27710.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
27718.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
對那如你所說的你們的中央的諮詢會又任務很多又不是只有這個第七條還有其他的很多你們的諮詢會還包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
27722.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
27750.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
規劃協調諮詢或宣導托育服務開發還有什麼開發當時有講到開發居家托育人力資源訂出托育收費退費項目及調整這是我們的還是當時因為抱歉因為沒有定案保留所以現在也很難講說到底是什麼版本但是當時好像架構講到這樣子那行政院的原來版本不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
27751.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
27767.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
因為行政院原來的版本不是長這樣子所以我們第七條也沒有講好所以我現在不曉得怎麼怎麼講非常感謝委員所提供的我們這個也接受委員之前的建議啦很簡單它這個基本上就是一個民族審議機制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
27768.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
27793.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
才是民主審議機制啊因為你這裡面有付費者代表也有那個服務提供者代表啊然後大家過來提出一個整個那個所謂的那個這個整個所謂的框架框架要件針對這裡面的一些那你再訂出來之後啊我們到時候中央這邊再把這個標準再交給各地方下去執行啦就這樣啦中央審議會中央審議會的一個基本原則就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
27802.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
27809.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
這個要不要先保留這個對啦這個架構是對的啦但是說因為跟第7條跟第13條這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
27814.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
27839.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
連動在一起那條文應該怎麼寫文字怎麼調整才是比較主席既然連適當的好先請王委員再請陳委員王委員那個第七條的部分你們原本那個文字就已經都有提到直轄縣市主管機關依據前項中央主管機關訂定居家托育收費退費調整原則等等等等然後應召開托育審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
27844.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
27867.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
這個是地方政府所以地方政府 上面第一項13條是中央你要召集地方你們要訂出一個調整原則那你這個會叫什麼會 諮詢會這不是什麼會就是送到托育諮詢會對不對 托育諮詢會在拍板 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
27871.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
27887.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
再拍板然後再公告對啦 他的中央他會交給一個主管機關自己就擬定了一些原則了然後交給這個合議制的這個諮詢會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
27890.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
27916.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
確認通過這樣子但我的意思是說托育諮詢會他服務的項目很多我剛剛講就剛剛上一次因為上次審已經很久以前我念一下就必須要調整合規劃結條諮詢宣導托育服務開發居家托育人力資源還要訂定居家托育收費特別項目及調整原則機構托育的收費特別其他托育服務相關事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
27918.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
27942.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
好像蠻多的啦我的意思是說沒關係 如果可以的話任務相當相當好 陳昭志委員我的意思是說 既然七條跟第一條是連動的就請他們再回去整合一下今天先保留好不好不然卡住了好啊 馬國博有沒有什麼意見就是 我感覺好像有點重複第七條跟第十三條內容在修法上面可不可以再更 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
27946.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
27961.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
好你們回去再研議大家看跡象我覺得有點醜好第七條第一項跟第十三條其實就有重疊了好不好好那我們就去都保留那接下來我們處理第十四條對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
27964.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
27983.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
第14條跟其他委員都一樣喔那唯有這個林慧琼也是13條然後林淑儀也是第19條好不好好請來那行政法第14條的部分那這個是為了要避免推服務有這個收費上的混亂所以不可以去這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
27985.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
28002.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
去收取直轄市縣市主管機關公告基準以外其他的費用那這個目前各委員所有的條文除了條冊上面會有不同之外那大體上實體的內容大概都相當所以我們建議是不是可以依照行政院版的草案通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
28003.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
28022.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
好 這個應該大家沒意見啦齁那我們就照行政院的版本通過第十四條齁好那接下來我們處理第十五條齁那院版跟多數委員都是一樣就是第十五條那只有這個林業勤委員是十四條王玉敏委員是四十四條然後林署委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
28023.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
28026.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
行政版第15條的部分那主要是針對這個部分未來在托育的時候要去訂就 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
28042.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
28062.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
這個家長和托育人員中間要去訂立一個書面的契約那契約的格式跟內容那而且要去我們要求要去訂立這個定型化契約以及依照消保法具有相關的應記載不得記載的事項那在文字的部分我們也參查了各個委員的中間有一些文字上有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
28064.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
28086.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
跟行政院比較稍微不太一樣的地方那主要的差異是在這個將來簽完的契約是不是要提供給這個縣市的居家社會服務中心那我們把這樣的意見參採進來所以我們有一個建議調整的一個文字那有提供給委員現在有秀在這個螢幕上面那主要就是在第一項的部分那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
28087.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
28113.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
在第一項的最後我們加了一句話就是並提供契約影本與居家托育服務中心那把這個讓居家托育讓居托中心在這個每一個有托育案件的時候能夠有更清楚的資訊好那在後面不管是訪視或者相關的操作的時候更方便好謝謝那各位有沒有意見好請理解請委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
28116.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
28130.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
會有積欠費用所以我們希望把這邊講清楚來是說送托兒童我家的這個法定代理人或實際照顧者因依契約規定繳費把它講清楚來因為這是保母現在的現況那否則你又要請他去做那個民事上的一些所以我說是不是可以把它加進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
28144.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
28168.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
加進來如果有爭議的話還是要打官司這個本來就有契約本來就有遵守的義務但是加進來就會變成說因為這個是居托這個兩照雙方的契約的責任義務還要送到這個居托中心來審查的問題而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
28171.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
28180.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
目前我大概是參考我們的幼照法第41條第一項他明定對就把明定就是法定代理人或實際照顧兒童應該依照這個契約來繳交費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
28186.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
28208.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
來 公部門好 跟葉警委員報告那這個有關繳費的費用繳納的部分在上一次審查的時候其實有談到這樣的問題所以我們在會後有初步做一個整理那我們原來的想法是在行政院院版的第十條後面去增訂一個條文處理有關這個家長的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
28210.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
28231.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
那這個條文的話我們初步的想法在那個條文裡面可能會包括到費用然後他的一些健康資料的提供那另外也包括了這個托育人員辦的一些活動這個希望家長要去做一些參與等等這個在上一次討論的時候大概就這個議題有蠻多的討論所以我們把這個部分的話原來在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
28237.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
28263.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
像署官委員跟陳培訓委員的部分有列了好幾款我們也把依照他的程度的輕重我們稍微把它強度上面稍微做了一個區分我們主要是針對把這個繳費以及兒童的一些健康的資訊的部分一定要提供給托育人員這一塊我們把它列到第一項去另外有一些屬於協助兒童成長的一些相關的東西我們把它拆成另外一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
28264.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
28289.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
那我們現在有準備 似乎有一個建議性的條文不過條四就沒有並在剛才討論的第15條裡面以上說明好 請林委員因為請問是說 因為這一條就在講說這雙方應該訂契約 一定要訂出契約那契約中央應該扛起這個定型化契約的範本要明訂一些應記載和不得記載的事項那我們的版本就是希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].start |
28291.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].end |
28308.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].text |
基於這個居托中心要有知悉契約的內容以助於這個輔導管理還有後續調查的事項的這樣的一個作業這樣子所以我們才會要求說這個契約的影本要給提供到這個居托中心來這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].start |
28309.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].end |
28338.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].text |
那至於就是兩照雙方一定要定型化契約然後送到中心啊你講的是說家長應該都有繳費的責任和義務這個這個概念可能現在他已經把它變到上次我們提的那個那我覺得OK所以比較沒有太大問題那只是我說這個契約因為一直以來都有A B約所以會在這邊還是說到時候裁罰的時候再去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].start |
28342.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].end |
28360.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].text |
照現在的草案條文,將來如果訂定型化契約的話是不會允許有AB約的狀況如果有看到一個B約的話,那他就是違反定型化契約那他就要處理了我是說15條的罰則是多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].start |
28373.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].end |
28401.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].text |
沒有啦沒有啦自己夾制有啦你說用消保法會不會不夠消保法的對啊那我說那個處分是用什麼用消保法的話那強度是不是不夠消保法怎麼處罰我們來看一下如果不夠的話我們要特別再處分一下要先命他改善要先命那個定型化企業那個人提供的人要改善不改善才會處罰好像六萬塊到三十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].start |
28403.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].end |
28426.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].text |
消防法第幾條現在馬上看37還是36都沒有發揮我知道你的改善是什麼司法院啦很多都是小孩在人家保姆家是人質等到他離開之後他才會跟你講那改善會叫他全部退回來嗎因為很多真的是這樣現場為了符合我們現在給的準工的錢就是有AB約 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].start |
28427.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].end |
28449.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].text |
比較會有這 可是都是事後等於是我結束收託我小孩已經沒在他手上當人質的時候我可能就我才來跟你講因為我覺得那我已經結束這樣關係的時候所以我不知道你的那個事後改善那個是針對行為史的行為去處理就那個提供定型化契約是違法定型化契約就要去處理那時候提供的這個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].start |
28451.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].end |
28454.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].text |
她講的是實務面執行不出來啦 她講的是說執行面 我們圖法不足以自行嘛 雖然法律這樣規定違法也有處分 可是呢 事實上執行面是不可能執行的月景講的是執行不出來啦 通常都是小孩不再請他顧了 然後才會爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].start |
28471.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].end |
28481.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].text |
那現在小孩不給他顧了 那個契約關係 兩兆雙方就不存在了當兩兆雙方沒有存在那個契約關係的時候呢那這樣的處分會溯及到既往嗎就是他有A B約 但是呢 能夠舉證出來都是已經不再讓他顧了這樣的處分會溯及到他的既往嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].start |
28497.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].end |
28503.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].text |
她已經結束關係了所以我就問妳說法律拿出來給我們看啦所以會請她把錢退回去給家長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].start |
28506.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].end |
28533.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].text |
這一條也沒有有沒有訂法則我們自己沒有訂你現在講的是說仰賴這個消保法第56之一我們來看一下就是說企業經營者使用定型化計畫違反中央主管機關所公告的應記載跟不得記載事項所以這個這個條文我們現在訂的額頭法的應記載跟不得記載事項那個企業經營者就保姆去提供的人他要先命他改善嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].start |
28535.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].end |
28558.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].text |
主席我們請法務部我們剛剛提出了就是說當關係結束的時候他可以再適用消保法的這一條嗎或是在執行面還有存在可能的哪一些風險我們沒有想到的或者是我們應該要明定在我們的兒托法裡面會是最直接最好管理的那麼請法務部說明一下好了來 翁城市總是要面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].start |
28560.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].end |
28585.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].text |
謝謝委員 謝謝昭偉有關這個提問喔其實這個我們看這56消防法56條之一他如果我們這樣初步看來因為之前也沒有就這個部分太細的思考過但是我想依照這個消防法的56條之一的規範如果違反定型化契約所定應記載或不得記載的事項這個法律另有處罰規定之外的話這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].start |
28589.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].end |
28615.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].text |
主管機關是可以令期限期改正 屆期不改正還是有罰還的規定那但是這個部分是不是有其他的需要再另外訂定的可能還需要就這個主管機關看有沒有必要要再訂一個規範因為這個部分可能不是只有單純的定型化的契約的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].start |
28617.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].end |
28643.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].text |
這個部分可能還是要尊重主管機關的意見來 請說這樣子聽下來我覺得很不妙 有兩個啦第一個 這一條的主詞叫做企業經營者而保姆會被認知 認為是企業經營者嗎第一個 構成要件必須企業經營者當主持第二個 他所謂的違法的行為是講你違反應記載及不得記載之事項而不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].start |
28652.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].end |
28656.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].text |
基本上企業經營者是不是適用在保姆身上這個可能有一個問號提供服務和商品的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].start |
28676.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].end |
28704.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].text |
那結束王三世那個結束之後呢如果收拖結束之後呢這個還適用這個嗎收拖結束關係以後因為企業經營的提供的定型化契約是供不特定人所以那個不特定人不因為某個事件某個特定人結束就結束他是有很多後面繼續提供的所以那個定型化契約只要他一起提供的話都會有違法的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].start |
28707.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].end |
28709.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].text |
他一直提供的話就會有違法的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].start |
28719.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].end |
28740.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].text |
可是定型化契約裡面我說他很多是自己加的才會有A B約嘛那B約通常是家長會拿出來給你看A約就是交給居福中心他的範圍只有兩個第一個就是依照我們定型化契約判本所以這裡面有定型化契約判本讓保母去依照定型化契約判本去訂他的定型化契約第二種叫磋商條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].start |
28741.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].end |
28762.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].text |
就是保姆跟家長去抽張兩個可以同意的條款包括價錢時間等等等等所以保姆不可以單獨去訂對小朋友或者是說他家長不利的條款那個不利的條款就是違法條款就是要改善或者是可以直接認定他無效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].start |
28766.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].end |
28781.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].text |
56條之一我想到了應該還有一個問題就是說他是說你的法律你自己的法律沒有規定以外才用這一條那如果自己的法律可以規定我們幹嘛用這一條那我們要不要自己來規定比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].start |
28782.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].end |
28799.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].text |
這不是既然要討論兒童法了那為什麼不自己也來規定呢然後弄到我們沒有法律規定才去用消保法才在那裡想說欸這樣夠嗎這會不會有問題我們自己法律來明定就好啦我們兒童法放進去就好啦好來定一條好你會換做這一條還是後面署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].start |
28808.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].end |
28832.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].text |
我們自己放要怎麼放請說我們後面來評估一下那個是不是有必要在罰則的部分甄列他去違反那個定型化契約的條款因為也跟委員報告因為現在的這個居家保姆的部分我們是只有提供契約範本托育的契約範本那修法了以後將來就是用定型化契約其實那個效率等級其實不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].start |
28833.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].end |
28860.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].text |
其實像校立府不太一樣像托嬰中心目前托嬰中心就是用定型化契約所以托嬰中心其實不太我們一般常常就不太有聽到說有所謂有不同的內容因為他寫的不一樣的時候馬上就可以處理那托育服務法訂完了以後那居家保姆也會在等於是受到同等級密度的規範那先跟委員做一個這樣的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].start |
28862.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].end |
28880.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].text |
所以這一條我們就先保留了好不好還是要過然後你要訂我們建議可以過因為在罰則的部分這一條應該是大家有共識可以通過但是大家也有共識增訂一條違反第15條的罰則請議事組記錄好不好這一條通過然後訂一個相對的罰則相對條文的罰則在後面看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].start |
28888.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].end |
28918.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].text |
但是要考量到他照顧一個小孩的收入多少所以這個罰則應該是要考量到你的收入跟你的比例處分的比例原則要好好的拿捏一下因為將來所有的保母手上都會有標準的定型化契約所以他如果有逼約的話基本上就是絕大多數情況就是明知故犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].start |
28920.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].end |
28946.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].text |
對啦 即便明知故犯的話也一樣但是就考量到他 你知道他的收拖一個小孩的收入你也是要考量這種比例原則啦 對啦好 謝謝那我們15條就通過齁接下來處理第16條 用白16條與你剛才用那個56之1條的話他也是算是罰的3萬元以上起跳啊 對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].start |
28948.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].end |
28976.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].text |
主流的販賣商品的一樣的東西沒有 我在講比例上的問題對啦 對啦 那個要發展的時候我們就要討論嘛現在處理第16條 院版第16條多數都是一樣 院版一樣是同樣的條是16條委員林月琴是15條然後還有俞敏委員也是第15條然後林淑媛是第21條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].start |
28979.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].end |
29006.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].text |
好請署長說明草案第16條的部分我們有建議做一個比較小的文字修改因為這個我們原來的條文的文字是叫在有收託第一項在有收託兒童逝時期間要投保專業責任保險那因為這個期間的部分到底會不會在認定上面比較不明確那也考慮到對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].start |
29007.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].end |
29037.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].text |
尤其居家托育人員能夠有一個比較精準的規範所以我們建議也參考了林淑坤委員的版本先做一個小小的文字的調整第一項變成居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前完成投保專業責任保險就是當保姆收到兒童的時候他手上就是要能夠有保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].start |
29037.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].end |
29039.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].text |
大概先做這樣的說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].start |
29052.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].end |
29079.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].text |
主要是未卜部建议的版本的第二项我们第一个就是说要确定每一个小孩交到这个托育员员手上的时候都是在完成一个都有保险保住他的这个状态所以这个第一项是我们恐怕是没有意见但第二项的问题就是说可是这个保险的问题是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].start |
29081.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].end |
29098.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].text |
每一個並不是每一個保姆的保險都是有地方政府補助的因為有地方政府補助的話他們就透過居多中心去辦理保險那這樣子的話就沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].start |
29102.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].end |
29123.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].text |
但是有一些保姆是自己去保要處理保姆自己去保險的那自己去保險的話你叫居托服務中心你自己去保險的要叫居托中心應主動協助辦理這個賠償事宜因為保險不是透過補助不是透過居托中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].start |
29124.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].end |
29139.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].text |
你叫他發生事故他要去主動協助辦理恐怕在執行面出險的時候執行面居托中心會利有未待這是第一線的人反映的這個到底應該怎麼處理是因改成德嗎居托中心如果是他辦理保險的應該是他就是因可是如果不是他的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].start |
29160.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].end |
29162.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].text |
但是保險不是他辦他在外面自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].start |
29169.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].end |
29187.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].text |
這個應該是因為保姆如果一定要發生這樣的情況居多中心他除了去監管保姆他應該也要協助他處理事情他可能就是讓他多一個責任去幫保姆我覺得有放是好的因為保姆他如果真的發生事情有居多中心的人員協助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].start |
29188.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].end |
29209.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].text |
我覺得應該是會更好那個淑芬妳的疑慮是什麼不是是第一線的人他們覺得說居住中心的人根本就不知道他他辦初選他可能自己就處理了自己去找他保險員然後就自己去處理了他根本不知道你說因結果他沒有去那要不要祭典要不要評鑑要不要輔導是這樣子他就自己去找人就對他怕被救者啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].start |
29219.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].end |
29247.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].text |
因為如果是他辦理保險他出嫌他當然知道啊可是如果私底下找人來保險的他就直接跟保險理賠就直接談好了那他來不及應啊是這樣子而已這個各位報告這個部分因為第16條第2項應該是沒有搭配罰則啦所以這一塊應該不至於而且條文寫的也是一個協助的角色啦並不是義務啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].start |
29248.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].end |
29271.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].text |
所以我想居托中心在這邊就是我們希望這個居托中心當然一部分是有這個監督或者是這個檢查的這個公權力的角色我們也希望他還是一定程度能夠去協助對於這個居家保姆有一定的這個不要變成完全都在對立面那這個能夠去做一些協助的時候其實能夠有這樣的角色還是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].start |
29272.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].end |
29298.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].text |
我想問一下目前你們多少比例事實上是讓保姆各自自己保因為很多縣市事實上是給付費用有的沒有給付費用在評鑑的時候也會這也是居托中心的工作範圍之一因為他確定到底他有沒有趕快保險所以應該照理來講我會掌握他有沒有保險為什麼沒有掌握的話不要說孩子權益會受到很大的損害所以想問說你們自己有掌握數據嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].start |
29300.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].end |
29317.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].text |
否則你們那時候為什麼會寫應該事實上本來就應該這個也很重要到底是有幾成的小孩子他是透過居住中心去辦理保險的因為有拿到補助的那有幾成是保姆自行去找保險業者自行去投保的大概是比例是多少這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].start |
29320.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].end |
29343.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].text |
我們目前手上沒有精確的數據資料就我知道應該是比較多時候是政府部門有給沒有給的話也是拘托中心是統一收費用去保險為什麼為了要確保孩子的權益有受到照顧所以有這個所以要不要下次再做一些補充因為我之前評鑑的經驗是這樣那這樣子的話訂這個就比較沒有太大問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].start |
29355.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].end |
29374.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].text |
來要不要先放著是不是先割直一下讓他們去調查一下到底這個真正的投保的狀況他的樣態是什麼樣子啦那我剛才講那個是因為第一線的這些呃服務員服務人員他們第一線的現場他們回饋認為說這個應會對啦對啦有一點他們覺得有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].start |
29384.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].end |
29399.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].text |
執行面不太好講好 所以就先保留好不好好啦 保留一下好 保留 謝謝那接下來我們是不是要處理黃毓民委員的第16條對 只有你另外一個也是16的 不過他沒有來你接續有16 17 18都單獨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].start |
29409.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].end |
29429.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].text |
王委員的第16條的部分那這個有關檢查的這個一定要配合的部分那目前的話在行政院版的條文裡面有關的處理目前我們是已經有在行政院版裡面大概也都有相對已經另外有相對應的條文主要是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].start |
29430.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].end |
29452.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].text |
五十六條、三十六條,對不起六十三條大概有相對應的規範那這邊的話我們建議是不是可以到時候就是在審到相關行政院版的條文的時候再一併處理好,同意所以就先保留了那接下來我們就處理,一樣是王毓民委員的第十七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].start |
29456.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].end |
29476.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].text |
王委員的第17條的條文那就是有關於要建立公共化居家托育服務的部分這個先前有跟委員報告過目前政府在於居家托育的部分目前是比較沒有在推公共化的部分公共化大概主要都是在推機構端的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].start |
29477.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].end |
29492.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].text |
所以這個部分目前政治上是比較沒有在推所以我們會建議這個條文的話是不是我們建議是不是能夠不納進來那大概有這樣 以上建議 謝謝好 這個就不處理了好然後再來一樣是王玉敏文的第18條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].start |
29495.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].end |
29522.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].text |
王委員的第18條的部分那這個要增列一些兒童這個有加進有些特別狀況的兒童那是不是能夠優先提供也是搭配的提供公共化的優先提供公共化的居家服務那這個跟這個第17條的狀況應該是一樣的我們是不是建議也先不納進來 以上好 先不理處理 好 謝謝好 接下來處理林署委員的第22條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].start |
29526.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].end |
29551.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].text |
請行事一貫說明林委員的第22條那這個也另外也陳培育委員的第19條大體上內容是一致的那主要是考慮到對於居家托育人員在處理到兒童這個受托的托育的兒童如果有一些有就醫或者受傷也臨時有就醫緊急上的需求的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].start |
29552.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].end |
29573.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].text |
應該要處理的方式那這個部分的話我們也先前有跟委員辦公室這邊做過一些討論那跟怎麼樣去讓居家托育人員在面臨到這些比較緊急的狀況的時候能夠有一個清楚的比較明確的規範所以我們在這邊有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].start |
29576.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].end |
29596.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].text |
建議的條文的文字也先提供給在我們今天提供給委員的資料裡面現在也投影在螢幕上我簡單的宣讀一下就是第一項就是居家托育人員應該與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人以書面約定兒童傷病之就醫地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].start |
29597.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].end |
29623.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].text |
那發生緊急傷病或事故時應及通知法定代理人或實際照顧的通知人必要時呼叫緊急救護專線支援並依其能力提供相關處置那居家第二項居家托育服務中心應將居家托育人員緊急傷病或事故的處置納入輔導事項以上好來請提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].start |
29626.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].end |
29647.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].text |
因為我們當然是肯定衛福部同意我們的基本上的方向因為這也是現場第一線的人員的回饋就是說衛福部的版本條文規定發生緊急傷病或事故時要先通知家長那必要的時候才呼救緊急救護專線支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].start |
29649.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].end |
29665.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].text |
那這個規定呢 背離了現行的法院的判決會讓這個法院現保母於不義因為這個三年前台中有一個在宅托育的人員他早上九點的時候就發現這個托兒不停的喘氣 臉色蒼白 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].start |
29668.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].end |
29673.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].text |
其實已經是屬於要趕快打電話給叫119可是他竟然沒有他是打電話給家長問家長然後把用手機錄影把這個小孩子的狀況錄給家長看那家長看完了影片呢請托育人員多注意孩子的狀況然後他有講有必要就打119 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].start |
29689.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].end |
29713.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].text |
那沒想到在這種狀況裡面呢到9點發現嘛那11點就開始發燒但是他也沒有認為說這有緊急狀況等到什麼時候他才要打就是下午1點他發現說失去呼吸心跳了然後趕快第一次就撥打119但是為時已晚最後急救也是無效死亡那結果法院就判他是過失致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].start |
29714.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].end |
29734.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].text |
那在這種這個意見裡面呢我們就發現說其實這些保姆他並不是專業的所謂的這些醫護所以他也沒有判斷的能力你叫他必要的時候要做什麼他怎麼知道什麼時候是必要所以保姆在當下真的他沒有那個專業也沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].start |
29735.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].end |
29759.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].text |
去做判斷所以也是因為這樣子法院才認為說你保母基於保證基於保證人地位雖然孩子沒有達到病危你本來就應該立即送醫嘛所以顯然我們就看得出來說其實法院對保母他們的要求是很高就是你保母有注意的義務而且顯然是相當程度比一般的認為的還要高那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].start |
29761.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].end |
29766.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].text |
在這種狀況裡面緊急傷病的救護原則他其實就是要規範出意外事件或是重大的事件的時候他的處理流程應注意事項那這一些本來就不應該交給托育人員保姆實際上讓他自行去進行急救所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].start |
29785.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].end |
29807.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].text |
我們還是認為說其實我們的版本的狀況其實是必要的啦應該要訂出這個一開始要受託的時候就要說明約定發生事情要送哪裡然後要有這個處理的程序地方政府要緊急的狀況要怎麼弄要訂出那個處理的程序出來所以在這種狀況裡面我們對於這個這個版本是不是適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].start |
29820.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].end |
29826.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].text |
我們的修正動議我們的意見是在這種狀況時你說必要的時候必要時呼叫緊急救護專線這個東西真的太難了就行政院的版本裡面還是苛責於保姆叫做你自行判斷必要的時候你要打119 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].start |
29843.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].end |
29867.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].text |
那這種就是沒有辦法然後再來就緊急傷病事故納入輔導程序事實上應該地方政府要訂出來所以我們緊急傷病的救護原則那流程聯繫的對象聯繫時要注意什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].start |
29869.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].end |
29894.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].text |
都不是由保姆實際上進行急救讓保姆進行急救然後再去輔導他去急救我覺得可能都會有一些問題啦會接不住會來不及救這些孩子也有可能保姆也沒有那能力也有可能會這樣子好 那個是不是換林業情委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].start |
29896.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].end |
29916.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].text |
這邊 當然我覺得把就醫地點寫出來是好事可是實務上也碰到很大的問題是過去突然中心 當然現在講居家保姆以前是突然中心都會有要求 後來還是把它改為什麼 因為這樣寫說我要去診所 然後結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].start |
29918.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].end |
29934.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].text |
突然中心如果送大醫院他覺得我堅持要到診所去可是有些病事實上是我真的以我現在的判斷我就是要去到大醫院所以直接如果書面約定說要就醫地點的話會不會有風險這個要去考量那第二個事實上我覺得純分為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].start |
29935.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].end |
29953.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].text |
提出來版本可能要比現在那個寫得好什麼叫做呼叫緊急還有能力如果被認為很高的能力就我沒有去做這個事情那你現在怎麼判讀我這個保姆的那個能力所以我覺得反而寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].start |
29954.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].end |
29972.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].text |
數分的版本我會覺得我比較支持這個只是就醫地點要不要要有一個在立法說明裡面可能要以像後來我們託醫中心都改是說要以大醫院我不會讓家長去寫那個診所他就是要附近診所結果發生事情的時候我還要我自己還要負責任那我可負不起責任如果以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].start |
29973.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].end |
29994.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].text |
保母或者是托孕中心的人一樣的那只是在這個索恩版本裡邊我覺得緊急傷病或事故傷害時我就加兩個字傷害 事故傷害那或者事故有點聽不是人家要有傷害啊事故否則也沒有傷害的話你要所以就事故傷害然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].start |
29995.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].end |
30016.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].text |
我覺得就一點點等一下可以討論一下要不要立法說明想說要一大的不要讓保姆不要讓家長去填那個小診所可能處置不了他如果填一個額科或者是內科結果他的事情很嚴重他認為不重要那就要送去就可能處置不了的時候那到底我保姆負責還是我覺得這責任在家這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].start |
30018.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].end |
30039.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].text |
我再說明一下就是基本上我也是希望照我們的版本來處理那我們就是非緊急傷病的狀況我們就先約定你要送哪裡就不是緊急的重大的這個傷病的時候平常你看醫院要送哪裡當然是可以先行約定或者是不約定當然也是可以但是如果小病的時候狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].start |
30041.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].end |
30068.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].text |
普通的時候其實是可以照約定的但如果你有緊急傷病的話在遇到這種狀況的話就如果你地方政府承擔起這個責任你訂出了這個緊急傷病的救護原則出來的話在這個原則裡面可能就會說直接送大醫院了就不會再次遵守你平常的時候小病的時候的那個約定的那個診所不會是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].start |
30069.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].end |
30088.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].text |
那但是總的言之絕對是第一狀況絕對不是通知家長家長不在身邊你錄影給他看家長也沒有辦法判斷那也絕對不是叫保姆自行判斷說必要的時候你再去打打求救也不是所以行政院現在提出來這個版本我們是絕對完全認為會反而會延誤就醫反而失去會錯過了救治的時間啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].start |
30095.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].end |
30100.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].text |
你要人家先通知家長然後再來是必要的時候才打救護專線那一起能力提供相關處置這個不行啦那地方政府要扛責你訂出了標準程序緊急傷病救護的這個原則你訂出來人家照表操課在這種狀況的時候你訂出來的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].start |
30121.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].end |
30148.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].text |
定出原則也有可能說居多中心來檢查輔導的時候要求保姆操作你要去評鑑保姆不如說應該是說要求保姆要會操作這一些你定出來的緊急傷病救護的原則這個是很重要的我們去看的時候都要求說保姆你操作遇到事情怎麼做怎麼做叫保姆不斷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].start |
30150.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].end |
30172.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].text |
眼鏈給你看這比較務實啦不是只有知道了還要讓保姆第一本能的第一時間就知道怎麼操作但第一時間絕對不是打電話給父母也不是自行評估必要的時候才打電話所以這個事情應該是照我們的版本應該是比你們提出來的備案還好吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].start |
30173.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].end |
30193.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].text |
好,兩位王委員都要講,先王一鳴委員,再王振興委員這個部分呢,我覺得在保姆相關的考照跟訓練的時候,這個應該是必要的對,我覺得這一件事情本來就是要擔任一個職業的保姆,他該有的基本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].start |
30195.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].end |
30199.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].text |
對 那另外一個就是剛剛淑芬講的剛剛淑芬講的就是說他除了有這樣的智能之外然後統一要求保姆在真的發生緊急危機的時候我覺得反正都是你們衛福部就是可以訂出一個你一定要做的幾個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].start |
30214.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].end |
30235.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].text |
那只要他这几个动作他确实其实都都做到了那的确就比较不会发生说保姆因为之后又被救责至少他有执行然后他可能还有被救责的问题就是说因为他怎样怎样所以的确如果有一个比较清楚的可执行的SOP让他在真的紧急的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].start |
30236.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].end |
30260.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].text |
去執行我覺得這個是比較重要那你現在這個文字必要使呼救我覺得這些語意都非常的模糊基本上你如果是在認定一個比較緊急狀態的時候那他就是要嚴謹就是要明確就是123他有做到這樣子我覺得這個比較重要因為你講一個很模糊的文字必要使呼救什麼必要使每一個人的認定就是一個很對我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].start |
30264.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].end |
30277.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].text |
這一個的語意有點太模糊的確要再精進那比較重要的是我覺得在原來他的相關的訓練他的智能還有就是緊急發生時的這個SOP還有之前在書面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].start |
30278.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].end |
30305.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].text |
就也讓家長清楚知道就是一旦緊急我會執行這個SOP我不見得是第一時間打電話給你我可能是先打這個119求助然後之後才是打給你就那個順序其實很重要就不會發生說為了一直聯絡家長在上班很忙然後延誤到他後面就是緊急去打哪有可能順序是要倒過來的先打119之後通知告知家因為他已經是緊急然後再告知家長說已經送到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].start |
30306.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].end |
30320.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].text |
好 我抱歉主席我再講一下就是說現在保母在考照的時候本來就有急救數的訓練了但是如果我們這個地方政府一定要訂出這個緊急傷病的救護原則的話要讓這些保母他們可能在救護車來之前他們考照的時候的急救訓練可以運用得上但是呢他們還必須要知道說緊急聯絡的對口送醫的時候應該要做什麼而這一些都要演練而且要不斷的複習 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].start |
30336.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].end |
30354.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].text |
所以在這種狀況要我覺得是要有這個SOP就是你們講的SOP的這個處理程序啦否則他的急救的這些智能在考照的時候其實也有啦好謝謝王委員完之後再請林業群委員謝謝你給他插下去我沒辦法OK沒問題沒問題本來就是學姊優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].start |
30364.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].end |
30378.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].text |
這一題我是覺得說當然這是利益良好不過針對於這個約定兒童傷病是就醫地點因為我們知道這個傷病本身很有可能就是感冒或是某一些的症狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].start |
30378.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].end |
30394.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].text |
那這個時候他要送到他原來約定的地點這也OK只是說如果相對是緊急狀況或者是他怎麼去判定說我送到這個原來的假設他旁邊就一家兒科診所 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].start |
30395.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].end |
30420.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].text |
他可能送过去也许在处理上无法及时处理的话那那个怎么来因应所以这一条就是如何能够让他更完整更细致这个部分可能在定的时候也要去考量到紧急状况跟一般的伤病的情形的这些就医地点如何能够让他呈现的比较完整请大家参考 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].start |
30421.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].end |
30441.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].text |
好 請你議員我一樣 這個我覺得當然要說分委員講說來去分流可是你直接寫這樣子就兒童傷病那你要怎麼去寫寫清楚我覺得最後我才講說立法說明還有一個是立法說明去講清楚我覺得會比較好一點否則你這樣有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].start |
30442.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].end |
30457.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].text |
家長也會咬著這一點說你法就訂那我就是要去訂這個診所啊那我就是決定要這樣做這以前實務上也碰到常常拿法條來為難我們的工作人員那另外一個就是說未來是不是可以考慮定型化契約就把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].start |
30459.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].end |
30482.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].text |
一樣納入這樣子會比較好一點否則的話你現在這樣子寫的話我擔心到時候一樣家長用這一條來難為我們居住人員的話就講說我就是要講這家診所可是依著他這樣子因為他有時候送到那個大醫院因為還有自費的費用常常就會被責難說你為什麼送納我就覺得要送這種診所所以我怕寫這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].start |
30485.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].end |
30490.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].text |
會讓 反而在食物上工作的時候事實上產生一些困擾 可能要去考慮啊好 來 陳教授委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].start |
30494.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].end |
30516.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].text |
我對面板接受度很高啊因為這個書面別的兒童上病室就可能他過去習慣是看哪個醫生有類似家庭醫師這樣的或是說兒科醫師的對象但是發生緊急的狀況的時候這邊也寫得很好立即通知剛剛好像有人認為趕快要獻送而不是通知爸爸媽媽或什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].start |
30517.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].end |
30535.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].text |
事實上要先告發因為你的孩子被送離開那個地方怎麼一定要第一時間當然是同步最好就通知代理人或實際照顧之人然後那個因為我們只要一般人就算在家裡我們碰到事故也是就119那救護車啊等等都要來處理它本來就有一個固定的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].start |
30536.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].end |
30552.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].text |
救護車上現在也很專業老師說你覺得說我要送小醫院他其實覺得這個不是大醫院包括我的父親都遇過他就這個不是附近的醫院而是要送到醫學中心去所以我個人對於這個目前的院版我是可以接受因為它就跟我們實際上發生的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].start |
30555.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].end |
30574.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].text |
是一樣 那這個所謂的這個書書面約定那個就一定的我覺得那是應該就是一個他過去每個孩子出生過就過去他有常看哪些醫師因為他有病歷在在那個醫院啊等等我覺得是這樣的一個如果我解讀沒有錯是這樣的狀況那我個人是支持院辦啦謝謝好那你要再說明請 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].start |
30581.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].end |
30609.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].text |
跟各位委員報告一下因為其實在訂這個條文的時候因為他是我們假設的情境是居家保姆那絕大多數的狀況都是他就是單人職業那他有可能會帶一個小朋友或者帶不止一個小朋友所以在這個不面臨到就醫的時候居家保姆其實他一般的情況他會面臨到這個如果只有他手上不止一個小朋友的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].start |
30609.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].end |
30626.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].text |
他人怎麼樣去這個他會面臨分身乏術的狀況那怎麼樣去考慮到他實際碰到一個這樣的一個需求那我們之所以在前段去訂定做兒童傷病的一個就醫地點那就是盡量讓保母在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].start |
30627.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].end |
30638.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].text |
一般性就醫的需求的時候大家在雙方家長和保姆端有一個這個習慣性的一個基本的約定那在一些比較緊張的狀態的時候其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].start |
30641.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].end |
30659.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].text |
因為碰到一些所謂的緊急傷病是不是要到要扣119這個有些不一定因為有些甚至這個有可能是保母帶著小朋友直接到旁邊哪裡去就醫個案可能會比較快搞不好比叫119還快或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].start |
30662.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].end |
30687.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].text |
對家長跟保母來覺得這是一件比較大的事情但是對119來說是不是真的到要動救護車有時候其實不那麼一定這個其實在認定上面在使用的時候也會有一些在這個雙方上面認知會有一些不太一樣的狀態所以我們條文當時寫的時候會有這樣的一個設計大概是有這樣子的一個背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].start |
30687.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].end |
30714.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].text |
那也跟委員做一個說明那因為例如說如果有一個小朋友在這個裡面可能被割到手然後稍微是有流一些血但是客觀上也許不至於有危及到生命但是需要馬上去就醫他是急但是這個一般來說也許不一定要到叫救護車但是他需要趕快去就醫的時候一般這一類的狀況或許 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].start |
30716.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].end |
30726.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].text |
通知家長可能會有需要所以在傷病的種類的狀況可能非常多輕重的狀況也不太一樣的情況那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].start |
30727.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].end |
30756.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].text |
我們的想法我們比較沒有辦法期待說這個保姆好像醫護人員一樣有這麼高層高強度的訓練跟專業判斷那我們就給他一個比較一般性的一個通知的法則所以我們先做這樣的一個一個撰寫這個是我們當初一個一般性的想法那也謝謝委員大概提醒真的是我們也理解到這個條文會有一些在一些狀況之下也許不見得百分之百或者所有的狀況都有辦法用但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].start |
30757.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].end |
30781.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].text |
我們原來的構想是說它是不是能夠適用到80%一般性的情況那這個是大概原來在寫這個條文的一些構想也跟委員做一些報告以上蘇芬委員講的 之前我已經講我還是比較期待是用蘇芬委員那個版本是比較因為到時候那個原則可以去不管是緊急非緊急的時候是可以講清楚一點然後本來就在到後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].start |
30782.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].end |
30807.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].text |
你開始搭配訓練 可是你現在這樣子寫的話 列在法條裡面反而不是很好 因為為什麼這會變成是好像不是A就是B的 那可是在原則裡面我會覺得我比較是支持數分版本 另外一個我剛剛有提到就是緊急傷病或事故傷害 請你加那個傷害那兩個字 那麻煩署分委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].start |
30810.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].end |
30828.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].text |
好那之前有一個案子就是說有一些保姆他就自行說要送到那個大醫院去曾經但是結果發現那個大醫院你以為大醫院都有兒科急診嗎其實是沒有他們台南地區就曾經發生過趕快送到大醫院成大最大間的結果那裡沒有兒科急診中間拖了40分鐘那這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].start |
30840.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].end |
30846.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].text |
有時候你自己覺得大醫院很大其實不符合你的需求反而延誤了治療 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].start |
30847.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].end |
30855.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].text |
那剛才司長講的沒有錯有些保姆他是可能一打四他跟機構不一樣那你認為說他應該通知家長來幫忙把這些孩子帶回去會有協助其他的家長可是事實上保姆只有一個人當事情發生的時候他打了119以後可能他現場馬上就要做CPR |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].start |
30872.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].end |
30899.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].text |
你說叫他打電話給家長搞不好他更那個時候不一定啊搞不好啦他其實更需要的是打電話給居托中心因為他分身乏術還要做SOP然後居托中心如果打電話給居托中心居托中心來幫他找其他有空的保姆或適合的人力來協助幫他來把這些其他的托兒或再聯絡其他托兒的家長但是你說第一時間就直接找家長這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].start |
30903.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].end |
30929.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].text |
緊急的時候好像都真的不是第一時間就是通知家長緊急的時候可能就是要打電話給專業的那在這種狀況的話其實我們一直要求緊急救護原則訂出SOP給一個明確的指引然後而且政府要把這些寫出來然後還要訓練保姆熟知這種情境下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].start |
30930.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].end |
30951.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].text |
熟知這種情境的演練然後還要懂得邊叫救護車可能要邊做急救數所以這個條文講的不是一般其實不是一般生病的狀態這裡講的就是最緊急的時候重症的時候緊急的時候在這種狀況不是說第一時間趕快打電話給家長好像責任要推卸給家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].start |
30954.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].end |
30959.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].text |
在這種狀況裡面你第一時間就打電話給家長好像彷彿是趕快不要為了不是為了要怕麻煩趕快把責任請家長自己擔不是這樣子所以消防署的指引裡面經常也有一些說有一些狀況不要猶豫趕快打電話叫救護車才是最專業的才是最正確的連消防署 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].start |
30980.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].end |
31005.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].text |
都認為說有一些狀況你家裡面的人沒有專業不要判斷趕快打救護車所以在這個條文在處理就是緊急的狀況重大的狀況所以我就不知道為什麼叫你們訂出這個緊急救護和重大事故的救護的SOP為什麼這麼抗拒呢我反而要叫人家打電話給家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].start |
31009.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].end |
31023.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].text |
市長這邊還是市長這邊要不要再回應因為我們如果看起來大家都我知道等於運民委員要不要發言可是就是說今天大家比較看起來是也是彈性度更高的是而且這個有個好處是未來還可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].start |
31024.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].end |
31039.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].text |
搭配訓練才事實上是對孩子比較有利而不是在這邊一翻兩瞪眼的寫說那就是那的確真的也要通知我們的法定代理人因為到院的時候要簽名幹嘛要做些處置是的確要可是你已經把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].start |
31042.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].end |
31069.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].text |
如果是有原則的話他可以有好幾種做法可是你現在就訂出來說那後來呼叫緊急救護的專線來做支援那就像剛剛淑芬委員提的如果到大醫院一定就是可以馬上做處置嗎有時候也不見得甚至而且你這邊還寫說依能力依誰的能力依保護人員能力那到時候你怎麼去又去判讀他這個能力然後相關處置倒不如事實上是去訂出這樣子的一個原則會是不是比較好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].start |
31070.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].end |
31089.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].text |
那黃玉敏我建議這一條就是先保留就是說因為畢竟你們主要是托育方面那關於急救應該怎麼處理我就涉及到那個另外醫療的部分所以你們回去你們也再就叫其他像144其他單位就是說怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].start |
31090.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].end |
31109.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].text |
才是一個對於孩子最好的一個處理原則我覺得這件事情可以再更謹慎再更嚴謹一點不急反正有很多都保留我建議這一條也保留請他們回去再討論我再補充一下因為要求政府訂出緊急傷病的救護原則很重要譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].start |
31110.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].end |
31124.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].text |
重症紧急的时候我们要定出一个SOP出来要告诉保姆你打电话求救即便叫119都不要用室内电话使用不要使用室内电话为什么你知道吗为什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].start |
31127.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].end |
31153.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].text |
因為你室內電話沒有辦法開擴音有可能然後沒辦法有影音因為開擴音然後聽從救護人員指示甚至可以面對面的視訊然後保姆沒有概念的話用室內電話求救可能沒有辦法擴音然後可能他不會操作人家教他操作他沒有擴音小孩不在他室內電話的旁邊那怎麼操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].start |
31157.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].end |
31186.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].text |
所以這個就是你訂出這種緊急傷病的救護原則那保姆都熟悉了我要打19手機要拿在旁邊手機就是只有在發生緊急事故的小孩的旁邊開過音甚至視訊然後聽從他可以不要拿手機放在旁邊聽從救護人員教他說第一步你要做什麼第二步做什麼你才會有辦法去操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].start |
31187.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].end |
31197.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].text |
所以這個就是為什麼我們需要緊急傷病的救護原則這個你以為每個保姆都自然而然會反應這樣子嗎當然不是啊所以我們在這裡的重點就是地方政府訂出緊急傷病原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].start |
31209.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].end |
31234.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].text |
讓這些保姆很熟練,操作一次一次又再一次,遇到的時候會操作請說還是要他們整合出來你們兩個講的那個版本,再來處理好不好這應該比較快了要不然就先保留,好先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].start |
31237.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].end |
31257.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].text |
對,然後整個出來你們剛剛講的版本嘛,到時候再給你們做參考我們開會是到五點半啦可是我們今天從早上九點開到連中午都沒有休息到現在了是是是,對有沒有要加油的可以休息了嗎還有其他要不要十七條喔好啦對啊對啊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].start |
31264.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].end |
31277.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].text |
來,那我們繼續處理驗版的第17條齁其他委員都是第17條了,就林業銓也是第18條,王毓民也是第45條然後林淑蔚也是沒有好來,請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].start |
31284.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].end |
31309.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].text |
行政法第17條的部分那這個主要也是在規範這個家長和托育人員對於照顧照顧的方式中間的一些溝通那大體上各位委員的版本文字上稍微有一點出入但是原則上是一樣的所以我們會建議是不是可以直接照行政院的提案通過以上好各位委員請再見對17條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].start |
31315.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].end |
31340.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].text |
好 其他會員有沒有其他意見沒有 那我們就照院版的再修正後通過好 謝謝對不起 你們怎麼會這麼緊張一個講究好不好我知道你們都累了就照院版的版本通過 好 謝謝那再來我們繼續處理就是這個林俗穩的第23條還有一個修正動議是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].start |
31345.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].end |
31346.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].text |
請行政機關先表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].start |
31359.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].end |
31385.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].text |
針對林曙光委員版本的第23條要求中央主管機關對於居家托育政策要有一個相關的計畫跟有計畫性的推動發展行政部門這邊我們也參考了委員的意見我們有一個建議的文字事先已經有提供給委員我們現在也把它一起投影出來請各位委員一起參閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].start |
31388.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].end |
31414.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].text |
好 就差四個字而已 嚴定政策吧可以喔 嚴定政策並定期檢討 定期檢討 對啦好 但我們其實重點是希望兩年就滾動式的檢討這樣子沒關係這個時候我們看就提到附帶決議或者是怎麼樣再來提 希望他們兩年推動一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].start |
31415.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].end |
31442.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].text |
那你就提互代決議嘛 好啦文字就照這樣修正好不好 好好那我們就照文字修正後通過好 謝謝委員然後互代決議再請提供出來我們就要先讀好那接下來我們處理的章名嘛好不好第三章這個托育機構第三章章名是托育機構那各委員的版本文字都一樣好 所以沒有問題那我們就照這樣通過好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].start |
31444.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].end |
31463.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].text |
那還有十幾分鐘,要不要再繼續?連中午都沒休息,工作人員也在休息我也沒有休息加油,你看我們這樣有進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].start |
31467.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].end |
31496.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].text |
第二章結束了告一段落你不先走第三章第一條嗎一條我們就走一條就好嘛我們就走第三章一條就好就開始了好不好好啦我念多了好啦驗版是18條啦齁然後林業情委員所有的委員大致上都18條只有林業情委員是20條王藝媒是第19條然後林署委員是第24條然後修正動議有這個業情委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].start |
31497.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].end |
31506.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].text |
葉請願的修正動議還有這一條可能會很多意見看法會不一樣沒關係好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].start |
31510.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].end |
31538.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].text |
請署長簡單讓大家意見一致好不好主要是這個院版第18條主要是規範托嬰中心的部分的設立那目前的話現在我們大體上多數的委員和行政院的版本草案大體上是相近的那其中有一些比較不一樣的地方是一個是王一民委員的那這個有提案是增訂托嬰人員先 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].start |
31539.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].end |
31564.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].text |
先用後訓的規定那這個如果是有需要我們的看法是也許可以在授權執法上面來做一個處理另外一個是陳培祐委員的版本那就是在有關對於工作人員的薪資的部分那這個部分的話我們是因為他是還是由這個多餘的人事成本的部分還是應該是雇主跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].start |
31564.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].end |
31588.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].text |
再有根據相關的勞動法令的部分來做處理那另外也主要是考慮現在多數的這一類托嬰機構大概都是有參與政府的不管是公共化的或者是准公的部分其實因為政府的補助的關係其他的這個相關的限制都有相關的規範所以我們會建議這個部分是不是可以就直接依照行政院的建議的版本通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].start |
31589.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].end |
31596.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].text |
好書長這張說明各位有沒有其他意見林月琴委員林月琴委員我這邊在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].start |
31599.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].end |
31627.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].text |
有加那個修正動議裡邊本來就有加就是有關於政府機關構就是性平工作平衡法裡邊可以設立的中心裡邊本來優先順序你的第二就是院版的第二事實上是所謂的需要協助兒童這個跟其他法甚至現在現行的很多規定都不太一樣可不可以清楚一點因為什麼叫需要協助兒童所以可不可以改成處於不利處境或危及家庭的兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].start |
31628.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].end |
31645.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].text |
因為畢竟事實上是這資源本來就比較難能可貴的那是不是可以應該還是要有些條件而不是需要協助的兒童這非常的不清楚而且目前肺炎幼兒園他們的寫法也是這樣子是不是可以考慮用這種表意方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].start |
31650.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].end |
31674.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].text |
跟林委員報告有關所謂需要協助之兒童的部分在行政院版的草案在第四條裡面原來有對於有相關的定義是針對在離島偏遠地區因為經濟、身心、文化或者是族群有協助需要這個部分我們在第四條原來是有這樣的一個文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].start |
31675.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].end |
31695.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].text |
所以我們在18條也做相關的引用這個背景大概是這樣不過因為草案第4條部分當時也是做一個保留不過就麻煩委員這邊再做一個參閱我們當時是從一個比較寬的角度把所謂的需要協助我們有列到比較從寬來去做一個規範以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].start |
31705.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].end |
31722.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].text |
來 請問不過因為你其他的法律又有就是都同樣都是0到6歲就這邊是0到2歲可是保姆也有比較大的可是幼兒園事實上是2到6歲我覺得法律的用詞為什麼不要比較一致因為家長在或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].start |
31723.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].end |
31750.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].text |
單位去面對到這樣子的解釋否則你這邊又有個重新定義那在我們的幼照法又有另外一個定義那為什麼不是去有同樣的一個縮值然後這邊有一個所謂需要協助的兒童因為你今天幼照法本來也是針對不利條件的孩子那他大偏鄉他也有去南瓜這些所以我認為不要再就開啟另外一個還要去解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].start |
31751.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].end |
31753.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].text |
因為都相同是0到6歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].start |
31756.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].end |
31781.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].text |
也跟我們報告 幼照法的部分需要協助的兒童他在母法裡面也沒有特別去定義他的範圍不過他在適應細則裡面有具體的條文規範所需要協助兒童的範圍我們現在雖然在草案第四條裡面去把一些基本的項目去把它列出來未來實際上我們也可以參照幼照法的規定再適應細則 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].start |
31782.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].end |
31789.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].text |
把這個細項的部分做更明確的表述這個部分我們是可以來做配合辦理以上好 謝謝來 請林書偉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].start |
31795.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].end |
31807.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].text |
因為你們現在討論第18條 但行政院的第18條的架構在我的版本托盟的版本其實是第24和第25條兩條那第24條是規定一般的托育機構那第25條對我們來講 講的是這種公共化的概念那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].start |
31818.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].end |
31835.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].text |
到底是要放在一起或是分開我們沒有意見但是對於政府機關構所主辦的這種收託裡面我們對優先順序是有意見的這個優先順序包括說行政院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].start |
31835.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].end |
31856.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].text |
政府機關購收託的順序並沒有包括該托嬰中心的員工子女會變成說依據性供法設置的托嬰中心收託的對象的員工委託單位的員工就是說像我們立法院的話他就是政府機關購的員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].start |
31859.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].end |
31884.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].text |
他並沒有包括托嬰中心的員工的子女所以你會發現說這些托嬰中心的保母他自己的小孩不能他專門在這裡照顧照顧這些機關購的員工的孩子可是他自己的孩子他自己沒有人照顧可能要送去給別人照顧那在這種狀況裡面因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].start |
31887.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].end |
31907.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].text |
現場照顧的人力難尋那你讓這些在現場照顧孩子照顧這些嬰兒的員工他自己的子女沒有人照顧所以我們是希望說是不是要把托嬰中心員工的子女列為優先收托的對象這個問題我覺得是還蠻諷刺的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].start |
31914.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].end |
31929.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].text |
那至於說我們版本還有說那如果兄弟姊妹已經在這裡了父母送你這個地方如果不放在一起的話還要送去別的地方這個如果因為名額真的很有限的話那麼我們就考慮是可以妥協的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].start |
31931.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].end |
31956.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].text |
這樣子但是因為這我們的架構就是兩條兩條那所以主席這樣討論下來可能會超過5點半那我們要不要先保留下次再討論好我是可以啦 看大家保留 大家都要保留請大家大聲講一下好不好好謝謝有聽到的抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].start |
31959.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].end |
31976.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].text |
好,那就請行政機關把剛剛林淑媛講還有葉請遠講的內容做一些文字的調整好不好,還是整合,就先行保留好,保留,謝謝大家,謝謝大家的保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].start |
31991.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].end |
32000.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].text |
來做一下決議兒童托育服務法草案等二十九案三位審查文件另則其繼續審查本會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家謝謝市長署長謝謝藝術組的謝謝各位同仁 |